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 a:l_' 
 
 THIRD SESSION— NINTH PARLIAMENT 
 
 SPEECH 
 
 M> 
 
 OF 
 
 ^IR. JOHN CHARLTON, M.P. 
 
 ON THK 
 
 iNATIONAL TRANSCONTINENTAL IIAILWAY 
 
 OTTA-AV^v, .vucrXJsa' 11 Jin.i i"J, ioo:» 
 
 I' < 
 17 
 
 Mr. JOHN CHARLTON (North Norfolk). 
 Mr. Speaker, excuse the slight embarrass- 
 ment resulting from changing seats, and 
 from my resuming my usual position, from 
 which I shall attempt to enunciate doc- 
 trines which are much more to my own sat- 
 isfaction than those that have lieeii pro- 
 mulgated for the last five hours from the 
 seat which I now occupy. 
 
 We are engaged, Mr. Speaker, In discns- 
 slng a question of very great Importance. 
 Never In the history of Canada has a ques- 
 tion so important engaged the attention of 
 parliament, and been brought before the 
 people of this country. It is a question 
 which we should attempt to discuss in a 
 spirit of fairness, in a spirit of candour, 
 In a spirit actuated by a desire to pro- 
 mote the best interests of Canada. This 
 Is a project which has to do with the future 
 of Canada. It has to do with the future 
 of our country far down in us history, and 
 no Individual In this House, no individual 
 In this country lias an interest in this mat- 
 ter different from that of other Individuals. 
 The Interests of all are alike; all arc iu- 
 terrsted in having a policy promulgat<Ml and 
 carried out by this urovernment wliich will 
 be In the best interest of the country. There 
 may be differences of opinion, honest dif- 
 ferences of opinion. There inevitably will 
 be such differences, and differences indeed 
 have existed within the ranks of the Libe- 
 ral party. This question has been dis- 
 cussed in all its phases within the ranks 
 of the party. The most courteous consider- 
 ation has been given by members of the 
 government to the views presented by the 
 members of the Liberal party with regard 
 V 06-1 
 
 to this project. The policy has been thor- 
 oughly threshed out within the ranks of the 
 I-ibnral i)arty. There is nothing that has 
 been presented here to-day by the lion, gen- 
 tleman (Hon. .Mr. Blair) that has not re- 
 ceived consideration, tliat has not been fully 
 considered and a decision reached with 
 regard to it. Tlie hon. gentleman (Hon. 
 Mr. Blair) tells us that this measure has 
 been urged with unexampled haste, that It 
 has been sprung upon the country without 
 due deliberation. Why, Sir, this question 
 has been under discussion in the country 
 and has received the attention of the pub- 
 lic for months; for years almost. 
 
 Mr. BUOCK. 
 
 Almost. 
 
 Mr. CH.\ULTOX. Yes, the question of 
 aiiotlior transcontinental line was dealt wltli 
 nearly a year ago by the very gentleman 
 (Hon. Mr. Blair) who has been addressing 
 the House to-night. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBKUS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHAllLTON. Yes, and I will read 
 in duo time what that hon. gentleman said, 
 and I shall contrast with a feeling of pain 
 the difference between liis sentiments utter- 
 ed a year ago and the sentiments which he 
 uttered to-night. The question has not 
 been sprung without due deliberation ; the 
 question has been thoroughly considered. 
 Of course, parliament has been delay- 
 ed by the consideration of this question ; 
 we have remained in session much longer 
 than we would have done If this question 
 had not been under consideration. I have 
 approved of the delay and the country will 
 approve of the delay. The government has 
 
decided not to enter upon a decision as to 
 tbls matter hastily. Tliey have weighed 
 ill the jirRuments and nil the conditions 
 In relation to this case, and they have ar- 
 rived at their decision after due delibera- 
 tion. Whether that decision Is correct or 
 Incorrect It has not been arrived at hastily; 
 It has not been arrived at without full con- 
 sideration of evei-y circumstance and con- 
 dition that had a bearing upon the matter. 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, bear. 
 Mr. CHARLTON. My hon. friend (Hon. 
 Mr. Blair) says that the Prime Minister held 
 that the necessity for the construction of 
 tbls road v. as Imminent, and he presented 
 that statement as a reflection upon the 
 Judgment of the Prime Minister, ns an evi- 
 dence that the Prime Minister has acted 
 hastily, as an evidence that the Prime 
 BUnlster has been Influenced by considera- 
 tions that are not considerations of wis- 
 dom, and that In fact, the statement of the 
 Prime Minister for the construction of this 
 road was Imminent, is an Ill-founded asser- 
 tion. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Jlr. Blair) 
 ■poke as though the proposal was either 
 to wait a little while, as he recommends. 
 (W to plunge into this project and have the 
 road next year. Why, Sir, we are not to 
 have the road next year; It Is not a question 
 as to whether we should have a transconti- 
 nental line Immediately, but the necessity 
 for it is Imminent. 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 Mr. CHARLTON. This line cannot be 
 constructed in less than Ave years. In the 
 meantime, a great tide of immigration Is 
 pouring Into the North-west. What will 
 be the condition of things In that country 
 live years from to-day ? Its producUons 
 will have Increased; they may be doubled; 
 they possibly may by that time be quad- 
 rupled, and the government Is simply tak- 
 ing time by the forelock, taking into con- 
 sideration conditions not as they exist to- 
 day, but as they will exist as soon or sooner 
 than they can provide the means to meet 
 these conditions. And so, I repeat, that 
 the necessity is Imminent. We shall need 
 transportation facilities In the North-west 
 as fast If not faster than they can be pro- 
 vided. Every bushel of wheat that Is 
 raised in that country; nil the productions 
 of its soil, must find their egress from that 
 country by rail. It Is not situated as are 
 the western states of the United States, with 
 great channels of communication, with rivers 
 flowing to the sea, rivers that furnish out- 
 lets to commerce; but the productions of 
 our west must reach the tidewater or the 
 creat lakes by rail. Our prairie region must 
 have railway facilities for every farmer 
 there Is In It, and so the government Is not 
 only taking Into consideration the drcum- 
 ■tances that now exist but the conditions 
 that inevitably will exist. The government 
 has made a reasonable calculation as to 
 what conditions they have got to meet five 
 years from to-day; they have realized that 
 
 these condition rf will Imperatively demand 
 additional transportation facilities, and they 
 have set themtelvea to work, not with undue 
 haste, not prematurely, but they have set 
 themselves to work at a time when I. was 
 necessary to take action and enter upon a 
 course of policy which will result in meet- 
 ing this emergency when It does arrive. 
 
 My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) In the 
 course of his speech Indulged In one re- 
 mark which possibly, upon mature reflec- 
 tion, and when he is cool, and has a candid 
 moment, he will regret, and that Is, Sir. to 
 attribute to this government the desire to 
 please Senator Cox. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Let my hon. friends on 
 the opposite side cheer. I do not know 
 whether such action Is quite consistent with 
 the course they have hitherto pursued, or 
 whether It strikes them as a natural thing 
 to do ; but I do think It was an imputation 
 unworthj of the hon. gentleman, applied to 
 the colleagues with whom he had recently 
 acted, and applied under these circum- 
 stances, when we are facing a great na- 
 tional emergency. 
 
 An hon. MEMBER. A crisis. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. No. not a crisis. When 
 we are simply taking such action as pru- 
 dence requires for promoting the Interests 
 of this young nation. 
 
 Now. Mr. Speaker. I would Inquire 
 whether our judgment as to this measure 
 should not be governed by a careful examin- 
 ation into the character of the undertaking ? 
 It is a very easy thing to raise questions 
 to befog a case ; a very easy thing to ap- 
 peal to prejudices, to ascribe motives, to 
 bring In Senator Cox and other Irrelevant 
 matters. But what we want to examine 
 Into on this occasion Is this : What Is the 
 character of this proposition which the gov- 
 ernment have laid before this House of 
 Commons ? I think, Mr. Speaker, that the 
 proposition Is a good one. That Is my 
 opinion. I have examined it carefully, and 
 I have arrived at that conclusion dispassion- 
 ately, simply because an examination of all 
 the conditions bearing on the case forces 
 that conclusion upon me. Other gentlemen 
 may arrive at a different conclusion. 
 
 An hon. MBMBF:^. Sure. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Some hon. gentleman 
 says sure. Quite likely many of them will. 
 Their conclusions may be Just as honest as 
 mine. Mine may be based on fallacious 
 reasons ; the same may be said of theirs. 
 It is for us to sit down calmly and argue 
 out this question, to avoid appeals to pre- 
 judice and to party spirit, If that is possible. 
 and to Judge this preposition upon Its 
 merits. It may be that the hon. ex-MInlster 
 of Railways thought he was doing this ; 
 but If he did. I do not think he grasped 
 very accurately or very fully the merits at 
 the acheme. / 
 
 f 
 > 
 
 I 
 
 t 
 
 t 
 
1 
 
 The bon. gentleman cbose to make n quo- 
 tation from the speech of the right lion, 
 leader of the government with regnrd to 
 the bonding privilege, and to beiittle the 
 fears expressed by the Premier— to assert 
 that those fears were groundless, niid that 
 It wns nil nonsense to talk about the danger 
 of the abrogation of the landing privilege. 
 Why, Sir, said lie, the Americans cannot 
 afford to abrogate tlie bonding privilege ; it 
 would injure them ; self-interest wouitl pre- 
 vent them from doing It. Why, Mr. Speak- 
 er, the Americans have threatened to abro- 
 gate the bonding privilege, not once, not 
 twice, but repeatedly. Whenever friction 
 exists, whenever bad feeling is aroused, one 
 of tlie first things suggested in the United 
 States i« to bring this ' spoiled child,' as 
 Senator Depew characterized Canada, to its 
 senses by shutting it from access to the sea 
 by the abrogation of the bonding privilege. 
 
 Mr. ROSAMOND. Nonsense ! 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Nonsense ! It is ab- 
 solute nonsense to suppose that we are not 
 In danger from this source, and It Is non- 
 sense to suppose that we are giving evidence 
 of prudence and evidence of thought and 
 care for our interests if we do not attempt 
 to place ourselves in the position where we 
 shall be independent of this threat. If our 
 friends on the other side of the lin« choose 
 to carry it into effect. 
 
 What Is the matter 
 
 r<i- 
 
 Mr. ROSAMOND. 
 with us now ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. There Is nothing the 
 matter with us now. We are going down to 
 the sea all right, and if my hon. friend had 
 his way, we would go to the sea through 
 American channels eternally. What Is the 
 matter now is that we want an alternative 
 route ; we want to place ourselves In the 
 position where we can defy the application 
 of this threat if it is ever made In the 
 future. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. 
 Blair) who addressed yon is loathe to believe, 
 he tells us, that the people of Canada are at 
 the mercy of Americans. We are loathe 
 to believe that. We do not believe It. But 
 we simply want to take prudent steps to 
 place ourselves in the best possible position 
 In our relations with the Americans. We 
 do not want to quarrel with the Americans. 
 If the bonding privilege is abrogated, it will 
 no* be abrogated with our consent. They 
 ca.i it a privilege ; and they hold that we 
 are beholden to them for this privilege. 
 But it is a privilege they can withdraw. 
 They have threatened to withdraw it. That 
 may occur again, and this threat they may 
 carry Into effect. 
 
 Mr. ROSAMOND. Not a bit of it. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. My hon. friend says 
 not a bit of it. Well, he knows the Ameri- 
 can character better than the most of ns. 
 He knows their magnanimity. He knows 
 the generosity with which they have treat- 
 ed this country for the past tbhrty-flve years. 
 
 vee-i| 
 
 He knows how Impossible It is for the 
 Americans to t>e guilty of such an act. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend (Hon. 
 Mr. Blair) characterizes this road as a sen- 
 timental road. 
 
 Mr. BROCK. Political. 
 
 M;-. CHARLTON. I do not know that he 
 characterized It as a political road. He 
 characterized It as a sentimental road. Well, 
 It Is a sentimental road. At the back of the 
 proposition to build this road Is a sentiment, 
 and that sentiment Is the freeing of Canada 
 from the danger of being shut out from ac< 
 cess to the sea. That sentiment Is the de- 
 velopment of Canada upon broad national 
 lines. That sentiment Is the building of a 
 trant<contInental road from ocean to ocean 
 upon Canadian soli. That sentiment is the 
 carrying to our own seaports, on our own 
 roads, of the products of our own lands. 
 It Is n sentimental road. At the back of 
 this road Is the loftiest and noblest senti- 
 ment that can exist— the sentiment of patri- 
 otism, of love of country. 
 
 My hon. friend says that the question of 
 profit and loss does not enter into the cal- 
 culation. Well, we have carefully consider- 
 ed that matter also. While the road Is a 
 sentimental road, I think we shall be able 
 to show that the question of profit and loss 
 has received due consideration ; and the 
 conclusion we arrive at is that profit on the 
 right side of the ledger will unite with sen- 
 timent In Justifying the building of this 
 road. 
 
 My hon. friend tells us that he would 
 favour tiie building of a road under cer- 
 tain conditions. He says he would favour 
 a well-considered line proceeded with at the 
 proper time. He intimates that this is not 
 the proper time, and he goes on tr aay : 
 
 Now '.n the Immediate future there Is no 
 need of another road not even on the prairies. 
 
 Compare this with the speech made by 
 my hon. friend less than a year ago, on the 
 0th of October, In Vancouver. He had been 
 waited on by tlie Board of Trade of Vic- 
 toria two days previous. He had been pre- 
 sented with an address, and the Victoria 
 Board of Trade had In that address re- 
 comi ended government aid to the Can- 
 adian Northern Railway for the purpose of 
 securing an additional line across the ter- 
 ritory of British Columbia to the ocean. 
 Inspired possibly by that address he made, 
 in a speech at Vancouver on the 9th of 
 October, use of the following language : 
 
 There is no country where the soil la more 
 fertile than In the millions of acres in Canada 
 which the P'lough has not ret touched, and 
 which man has not yet Invaded. Railways were 
 necessary to open up theiie great fertile tracts. 
 If we are to invite the ptO'piie from the woitld 
 outside to immigrate here, they have a right to 
 expect that the government can assure thorn 
 the means of transportation. That me«oi a 
 Rreat many railways in many parts of Canada 
 and w« 'feel as a government that we have ample 
 JiMtification in going to all reasonable lengths 
 
to meet this need. The tide of Immigration wai 
 lu»t setting In full and strong t(»wards Canada 
 parMcularly from the south, and he belleve'l 
 the time was near when there would be a 
 greater Immigration than ever before to Can- i 
 ada from the motherland. This InHux of set- 
 tlers, be snld must bring Us problemx. ! 
 
 It meant an Increase of soil production and ' 
 nece«»arll]r of means of transport. We canroi 
 long remain content with only one transcon- 
 tinental line. I am ambitious myself to see 
 another rlsrtit away. It cannot come fa«t 
 enough to satisfy me, and I am doing all I can. 
 In my small way, without public pretense about 
 It, to Insure Its construction. 
 
 How does that compare with the language 
 used by the hon. gentleman to-night ? Has 
 he come around, after giving utterance to 
 these sentiments, to the position that we 
 are using undue and indecent haste In 
 spending a few months in perfecting a 
 scheme to construct a road wliicli cannot 
 be ready for use before four or Ave years. 
 
 We have the hon. gintleman's words 
 quoted also in the 'Dally News' and 
 'Advertiser' of Vancouver. He is there 
 reported as saying : 
 
 This influx of settlers he said must bring lU 
 problems. It meant an Incri'aso of soil pro- 
 duct'on and necessarily a means of transport. 
 We cannot long remain content with only one 
 tpansconllneoul lino. I am ambitious myself to 
 see another right away. It cannot come fast 
 enough to satisfy me. and I am doing all I can 
 In my small way, williout public pretense about 
 it, to insure its construcMon. 
 
 Then there is anotl report of the same 
 speech in the ' Daii> Province ' of Van- 
 couver. 1 quote these three In oi'der to 
 avoid the charge that the speech was not 
 revised by the hon. ;;eutleman and that 
 bis sentiments were not correctly reported. 
 This report says : 
 
 We cannot long remain content with only one 
 transcontinental line. I am ambitious myself 
 to see another right away. It cannot come fast 
 enough to satisfy me, and I am doing all I can 
 In my small way. without public preteuse about 
 it. to ensure Us construction. 
 
 These were, I thinii, sound sentiments, 
 and I endorse them. It is unfortunate that 
 there was a difference in tone and in posi- 
 tion compared with the position occupied 
 and the language used by the hon. gentle- 
 man to-night. I am at a loss to account 
 for the discrepancy. I would hardly sup- 
 pose that the hon. gentleman could have 
 had so radical a change of views in eight ; 
 or nine months, as he has shown by his j 
 speech to-night compared with his speech j 
 of October tlie 9th last. It has been sug- \ 
 gested to me that, in quoting from these 
 newspaper reports, I hiive overloolced some- 
 thins. I find that the hon. gentleman gave I 
 utterance to the following sentiments In 
 Vancouver : 
 
 There are young men, perhaps middle aged 
 men. who are listening to me who will see three 
 or four transcontinental lines running through 
 Canada. And they will not see more than 
 enough. 
 
 Three oi four trnnscontinentnl lines, and 
 these will not be more than enottgh. Well, 
 Mr. Speaker, I am at a loss to account for 
 the (limrence in these expressions of opin- 
 ions as indicated by these quotations and 
 the speech of the hon. gentleman to night. 
 
 Mr. HUGHES (Victoria). You would 
 want to read thi whole speech. 
 
 Mr. CHAULTON. 1 have road the es- 
 sential part of it and will take another oc- 
 casion to read the rest of it. There are 
 some expressions in my hon. friend's speech. 
 I which perhcps indicate something that .vas 
 I not fnllv revealed, but persons skilful in 
 ! such business may read between the lines 
 I and draw Inferences. He says : 
 
 ! As .Minister of Railways I was entitled to 
 1 know what was going on, I was atltled to 
 ■■ know what the Premier of thi Dominion 
 i thought about the matter, what he is doing 
 1 about It. I was entitled to be con- mted from 
 I day 10 day and step by step. If I was not en- 
 titled as Minister of Railways to dictate which 
 course should be pursued. 
 
 coa- 
 
 Again he said : 
 
 No Intercolonial Railway official was 
 sulte<! about this matter. 
 
 1 do not know what this means. It Is 
 not possible, I presume, that pique would 
 have induced my hon. friend to resign. It 
 is not possible, I apprehend, that a feeling 
 of indignation because he thought he had 
 not occupied that prominent position In 
 shaping affairs In the councils of the state 
 to which he believed he was entitled, could 
 have Influenced his conduct, but it was un- 
 fortunate that he Introducd these Illus- 
 ions to the fact that he had not been con- 
 sulted. Comparing his remarks to-night 
 with his speech of eight months before, 
 one is naturally led to look to some reason 
 besides the one given that he left his posi- 
 tion as minister of the Crown because the 
 government had adopted a scheme for an- 
 other transcontinental railway, much less 
 radical and objectionable than the one he 
 had proposed and advocated. He tells us 
 in his speech that we want no rail- 
 way, that there is no demand for it. 
 How does that compare with his 
 speech in Vancouver, where he tells us 
 that we want railways to open up unoc- 
 cupied territory, so that we may Invite im- 
 migration V The two position-' .^^e radically 
 and diauit tricaily opposed to each Other. 
 No demand for a roihvay through unpeopled 
 regions ? I tiiink I hiive heard that in the 
 old Canadian Tncitic Uaihvny time. I think 
 we ourselves inad<» the mistake of using the 
 same langiuige. and I think we paid dearly 
 for our lack of coniprt-hensiou of the powi- 
 tion of things. And we are not going to be 
 led into that trap again. We are not going 
 to take advice that will lead us into a line 
 of action of which we have such unpleasant 
 remembrance. Tlie hon. gentleman tells us 
 that there is no demand In Quebec for a 
 
 tf' 
 
 i 
 
wm^ 
 
 \ 
 
 traiiscontlii^ntal ratlwny. Who promoted 
 the project of tbe trnna-Canadlan line ? 
 Wns It a popular scheme in Quebec ? Had 
 it no bncklnir. no popular iiupport there ? 
 Why, QuelM>c was unanimous In favour of 
 tbe transcontinental line, and tlie hon. gen- 
 tlemnn'g Rtatoment is abMunlly unfounded. 
 And, I may remark parenthetically, we ore 
 lidoptInK a Hchomo that disposed of the 
 trana-Canadlan project with Its demand of 
 enormous sul>8!dlo!« In cash and Innd In 
 favour of which there would have been 
 pressure which It would have been dlfflcalt 
 to resist. 
 
 air. CLANCY. How V 
 
 Mr. CHAllLTtlX. How Is such pressure 
 brought to bear ? Is my lion, friend (.Mr. 
 Clancy) » novice In political matters ? Has 
 he been living in the cool shades of opposi- 
 tion go long that he Iims forgotten every- 
 thing except what Is truf and righteous nild 
 In complete accordance with the principles 
 of the moral law ? Mr. Speaker, when the 
 speech from the Throne was delivered, my 
 fcon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) was a member 
 of that ministry. That si>eech foreshadowed 
 a transcontinental road. We bad not reach- 
 ed, at that period, a definite conclu.^ion as 
 to how this thing was to be proceeded with, 
 but there was a broad statement to the 
 effect that a transcontinental line was deem- 
 ed to be a necessity, jind the government 
 was about to proceed to consider the best 
 method to adopt for the construction of that 
 line. Why did not my hon. friend resign 
 tlH»n ? 
 
 Hon. M MLAIH. We got 000 miles of It 
 authorized this very session. Thnt Is the 
 tning that was In my mind. 
 
 Hon. Mr. CHARI-TOX. Now, the burden, 
 of my hon. friend's speech was the ijucstion 
 of government ownership. And I give tiie 
 hon. gentleman credit of having honestly, 
 energetically and without deviation advo- 
 cated that principle of the construction of 
 the road by tiie government. And I have 
 this to say with regard to that matter, that 
 I sympathized with tliat view mysolf, nut I 
 did not consider tliat my own'vlew.s v.ere 
 entitled to be accepted by the government, 
 as the ex-Minister of Hiiilways and Canals 
 evidently did in his own case. I presented 
 my arguments in favour of that scliemo and 
 those arguments were received with court- 
 esy and given careful consideration. Tlien I 
 heard the arguments against the adoption 
 of the scheme, and I felt a little doubt 
 whether I might not have been mistaken. 
 And had my Ideas been adopted, and had 
 I been responsible for tbe adoption of 
 that scheme, I should h; ve trembled foi 
 the consequence, and, no doubt, should 
 have regretted It was done. Government- 
 ownership has a seductive appearance. It 
 appeals to the Imagination. It would be 
 a bold policy. It would be Just the thing 
 for this country, granted two or three condi- 
 tions. The first condition : separation, total 
 
 separation from political management of the 
 road. The second condition is honesty of 
 construction. Tbe third condition Is honesty 
 and efllclency in the management ou tbe 
 basis of a well organized and well arranged 
 rallwjiy. If we could have all these con- 
 ditions, government-ownership would be a 
 good thing In my opinion. But the danger 
 Is that we might not be able to secure these 
 conditions. The members of the ministry 
 possibly In arriving at a conclusion on this 
 matter may have had the Intercolonial road 
 In view and may have had some doubt, ow- 
 ing to the results of the management of the 
 Intercolonial, whether It was l)est to extend 
 the principle further. And I presume their 
 doubts were well founded. Now, the hon. 
 gentleman tells us that In bis opinion we 
 should have proceeded in a leisurely, careful, 
 <'onservatlve manner. First of all. we should 
 have secured an appropriation for surveys. 
 'I'lien we should have gone on and made 
 the surveys, then. In due time, at tbe ex- 
 piration of a couple of years, we might ive 
 proceeded with tbe constrnetion; an ,. at 
 the end of the next decade, Dpobai , we 
 would have had the road completed. And 
 In the meantime, the congestion In the west 
 would unquestlon.ibly have made us sorry 
 tli.Tt we had not got It sooner. 
 
 Now, with regard to exi loratlon, we should 
 not tall into tlie error of supito^iiig that we 
 are entirely without information as to the 
 country through which this road will p.-'ss. 
 We have a great amount of Informatlop. 
 We have not actually located the line; we 
 have not actually taken tlie level ? But 
 we know what the general character of the 
 country is between Quebec and Winnipeg 
 north of Lake Neplgon. We have one sur- 
 vey made by Sir Sandford Fleming from 
 the Ih'kI of the Montreal river north of 
 Lake Nepigon to Winnipeg. He tells us 
 that it is a highly favourable line, with no 
 grades more than one per cent and no 
 bridges more than 300 feet in length and 
 only a few of them; that the country is a 
 level one and highly favourable for railway 
 construction. Witli regard to tlie country 
 east of the conimencenient of tliat survey 
 to Qiieliec. we have abundant information 
 wliieh shows that It Is of the sf nie character 
 as that reported on by Sir Saiiford Fleming. 
 Tills great country north of the height of 
 land offei's few Impediments to railway 
 construction. We know enrugh of the 
 general character of that country to warrant 
 us in definitely entering upon the scheme 
 of constructing that railway. Then, with 
 regard to the country form Winnipeg to 
 Fort Simpson, through the Peace River Pass, 
 that country has been traversed again and 
 again not only by explorers but by engineers. 
 The eliaracter of that country is thoroughly 
 well known. For the whole territory from 
 Winnipeg to Fort Simpson by way of Winni- 
 peg, the government is In possession of all 
 the Information that Is necessary to war- 
 rant It In embarking upon a scheme for the 
 
conitructlon of thli road. Whll. tbe- <:o^d 
 ^ nSi with definite accar»cy wh«t tut 
 ?Sd*wo.^d coJrthey could i^.k, an a^ 
 
 «*;>rsrr«nrtU's;w*"detrnK 
 
 SI cl?.5a??Ir oflbe ob.tac/e. to ^ overcome 
 In the bnlldlng of the road. 
 
 a>v- \i- HAaOART. Where Is that In- 
 f«S»«tloi ? Th?re ha. been no .nrvey from 
 ibTheUd of Like'Neplgon to Winnipeg. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It la ''0"*'"°*,^., ° " 
 renort of Sir Sandford Fleming. I tblnk It 
 ta MUte No 3. 1 win be happy to "end the 
 Tolnme up to my hon. frl.ud. I have It down 
 at my room. ., 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGOART. The hon. gentle^ 
 man will ttnd on looking at It that It w u c 
 fZetrom the head of Lak. Neplgon down 
 to Lake Superior, not from Lake Nepigon 
 to Winnipeg. 
 
 M> rn ART TON My 'ion. friend Is mis- 
 taleu surveys were being made for the 
 S,rno«e of securing a route to Winnipeg. 
 ?o Red Rlver^rom the east, and this was one 
 If these snrv^vB. embracing the country W- 
 ^ie'enlhrnead of >Iontreal H-' »nd Jin- 
 
 "Xh^x''d;lA«/or\t"^ch^r?c^e?« 
 Toimtry n^rth ..f the height ..f and. Now 
 Mr sjeaker. my hon. ^len-l- «m go n« 
 wmewhat discursively over tW '-^^es w 'f^ 
 T mnrtP lit random while ue Wiio speannig 
 m?^ hon WenT tells us that the Idea of 
 
 handler, and consequently we cann..t expect 
 to do very much lumbering from the east 
 S Wlnnljeg 1 have been over to VancouveT 
 «fex^ weeks ag6. and being a lunoberman 
 
 ESe;^ent-r ?b^oSh - " -o- 
 S tbo rSr^nd the Thompson, went over 
 the heavVgrades between Kamloops and the 
 ColumWa went over the Selkirk Mountains 
 Sent over the Rocky Mountains, went up the 
 Kicking Horse grade, a grade of four per 
 Snt where It tikes a powerful locomotive 
 to Jo no with three cars, and went out to the 
 Klcs^oT great cost. With a wel equipped 
 ?oali of easf g-- ^ we can reach the pralr e 
 section with oer from all Parts ot tne 
 
 ?eg£ that this road will open In Ontario, 
 and from the western portion of Q«ei>ec, 
 we can reach the prairies, In my opinlon. as 
 rfienn V as the Inmber from Vancouver 
 reaches that destination. A railroad man. 
 ifvou ask him about the capacity of a road 
 and whether Its capacity for business is 
 measured by the length <>' the "ne^»» J^" 
 *nii no • he will answer that it is measureu 
 Cthe length of the line and by the steep- 
 Sess of the grades. The grades over the 
 
 II. 
 
 ^n^ro«Trl«^«•^^^^^^^^^ 
 
 ™ii« nf thP road So the assertion that we 
 Smiot rlach the prairie, with minber from 
 u"u h nterland of ours. U not well founded. 
 Nnw he tell, us that we know nothing of 
 th^"";.«.!t;y!" Ten "Plorln. partle. we„ 
 
 r.t"Sr'X ^^ur'poYe ?f^ aSS^CT? 
 c ha • icter of thl. country north of the height 
 of inndln Ontario ; and H"* '^ntar J n 
 
 ?;;K.iio"i! ^Vi^hiT^e'^'Siary^^y. 
 
 =^;ii^ofta"^SSS 
 
 Piiiv holt of good prodvctlve lami, ot ricu 
 h ml wltli a climate which fit. It for agrl- 
 Snrnl opera ions, land which lies south 
 
 1 'iim nv 1 400 miles from >> mnipeg w vr^y 
 ?;ecwUhout having any local business what- 
 
 " Then the hon. genUeman comes down to 
 ,'S« ,r.r tter *'t.. o,ie rond «lvl»« ...- 
 
 E'Aja:%"-r«rKd4 
 
 Canada without any reference to a partlcu- 
 a six foot gauge, a three foot six ini.u 
 
gMnge. a four foot eight and a kuif Inch 
 gauge ; and whererer one of these roads 
 eoniu'Pted wHh another having a different 
 gauge, the freight had to be transferred 
 from one car to an' 'her, had to break bulk, 
 as 't was ' rtned. Now, by uniformity of 
 gauge, thiif :s ' breaking of bulk. A 
 freight car Is Inr .•d at Los Angeles, or San 
 Francisco, or I'ortland, and It goes through 
 to Now York, or Chicago, or Boston, or 
 wherever Us dcsti nation may he, without 
 breaking bulk ; and then It goea back again, 
 perhaps loaded and perhaps empt.v. The 
 business of running two roads over the same 
 track lias been demonstrated, and It Ih suc- 
 cessful. I live on the air line of the Grand 
 Trunk Itnllway, a llnb of road extending 
 from Buffalo to Detroit 229 miles In length. 
 That road Is operaved by ti.e Grand Trunk 
 and by the Wabash. The Wabash sends Its 
 through trains from Chlcn.' from Konsar 
 city, from St. Louis, oviT thi. . road to Buf 
 falo and back again. It sends Its frelgh. 
 trains over thot road, the Grand Tri nl; Rail- 
 way does the same. They hare thoir run- 
 ning arrangemeats, a Joint syster. )f des- 
 patching ; agents at stations art ■ ?!d by 
 each company accord! ? "^o the vo ii a of 
 business that each tn -" ?ts, and impairs 
 ar kept up In tho samt «vay. The^c Is no 
 hilch, there is no friction. They change 
 engines on that route, they have a dlvlEion 
 110 miles lonj; from Detroit to St. Thomas, 
 and a division of 110 miles long from St. 
 Thomas to Niagara Falls or Buffalo. Each 
 road has Its engine bouse, each road has Its 
 repair shops, and they can work them Joint- 
 ly if they choose. They hove their Joint- 
 system of despatching, and of payment of 
 expenses. That system of things has been 
 operated for three or four years, operated 
 successfully, operated without the slightest 
 friction at all, operated to the advantage of 
 both these companies. They use Jie same 
 bridge going i'lto Buffalo, everything in 
 common, the respective expenses arranged 
 amicably between the roads. The Flint and 
 P6re Marquette road, which is a Michigan 
 system exchange their traffic at St. Thomas 
 with the Michigan Central. They send their 
 freight trains over their own road from 
 Walkerville to St. Thomas and over the 
 Michigan Central to Buffalo. They have a 
 Joint arrangement In the matter of despatch- 
 ing and the whole arrangement Is working 
 harmoniously, efficiently and to the satis- 
 faction of both parties. The hon. ger*ieman 
 has not been Minister of Railway and 
 Canals long enough to learn his trade. He 
 has not been Minister of Railways and 
 Canals long enough to learn some of the 
 elementarry principles of the business. 
 
 The MINISTER OF MILITIA AND 
 DEFENCE. The CanarHan Pacific Railway 
 runs over the Intercolonial Railway between 
 St. John and Halifax. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Yes. and the hon. ex- 
 Mlnlster of Railways and Canals admitted 
 that the Canadian Pacific Railway ran over 
 
 the Grand Trunk ('•■>•. «- line from Tor> 
 onto to Ilamilto' '■ ..e said there wu 
 no chang(> of eni 'r. « nd that they conM 
 consequently wor: ^ut arrangement If 
 you can operate a road 220 miles long wlUi 
 two divisions and a change of engines be- 
 tween, you can have twrnty changes of 
 engines and work it satisfactorily. All 
 you have to do Is to have your despatching 
 vstem properly organized and make year 
 .-irrangements for the use of the road. In 
 this instance the government steps in and 
 nets as an arbitrator, and if any attempt ia 
 made to take an unfair advantage on the 
 part of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, 
 the government can see that the stipulattona 
 of this contract arc carried out. 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGGART. You want the 
 same parties to own the roads ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. No, the same pai <ee 
 1) not own these two roads that I am 
 ()eaklng of. The Grand Trunk Railway 
 . (vns the road and the Wabash Railway op- 
 erates Its trains over It. 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGGART. Tho same partial, 
 tlie New York Central, the Canadian South- 
 ern and the Pf're Marquette own the road 
 that the hon. gentleman Is talking about 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. The same parties do 
 not own the road. The P(^re Marquette, the 
 Canada Southern and the New Yorlc Cen- 
 tral do not own the road. The New York 
 Central has the Canada Southern leased, 
 and the Flint and P^re Marquette road lu 
 entirely Independent of both. 
 
 Mr. LOGAN. Another ex-Mlnlster of 
 Railways and Canals who has not learned 
 his trade. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. The hon. gentleman 
 (Hon. Mr. Blair) wants to know why. we 
 cut off government ownership at Winnipeg. 
 Why put this section of the road west of 
 Winnipeg on a different bnsla fiom the 
 section east ot Winnipeg ? In one sense 
 the government has the same control over 
 the western division that it has over the 
 eastern dlvljlon. The arrangement secures 
 to other roads the same rights from Win- 
 nipeg to Port Simpson as from Winnipeg 
 to Quebec. It gives these privileges to 
 every road from ocean to ocean and the 
 government exercises similar control In this 
 matter. That Is one of the conditions of 
 the contract, but the government retains 
 ownership in the eastern division while It 
 leases the road to the Grand Trunk Pacific 
 Railway. Why does It retain It T Winni- 
 peg Is the great converging point of all the 
 roads In the North-west Territories. Here 
 the trade of that country concentrates and 
 will do so for a long time to come If not 
 perpetually. The government constructs 
 a great trunk line from that point to tide- 
 water, to an ocean port, for the purpose of 
 securing Canadian trade for Canadian ports, 
 and It does so because this is the great main 
 artery into which will be poured, and over 
 
which will run the trade of the Grand 
 Trunk Pacific Railway, of the Canadian 
 Northern Railway, perhaps, and the Can- 
 adian Pacific Railway, possibly, and of 
 «ny road that wishes to use It. Its use is 
 free to all upon equal and equitable terms, 
 and the reason for government ownership 
 as far as Winnipeg Is that Winnipeg Is the 
 great converging point, tV.e great entrepot 
 where the trade of the North-west Ter- 
 ritories will concentrate and where the gov- 
 ernment road will bid for the transaction 
 of the whole of the trade, or as much of it 
 as it can do without reference to the other 
 companies whose trains may run down over 
 this road. 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGGART. Hear, liear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. My hoii. friend (Hon. 
 Mr. Haggart) says ' hear, hear.' 1 thiuU 
 that is perhaps a good reason for having 
 the road. The motives are all right and it 
 remains to be seen how much traffic we 
 can get for the road, but we cannot get 
 anything unless we try. If we are to at- 
 tempt to secure busines for our own sea- 
 ports we must provide a road to get there. 
 
 My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blair), at this 
 stage of his speech entered upon the Inter- 
 colonial Railway question. He really feels 
 sore over that. The Intercolonial Railway 
 is no doubt a pet with the hon. gentleman, 
 and the brilliancy of the management of the 
 road, of course, entitles him to feel doubly 
 interested in its welfare. The people's 
 money, he tells, will l)e squandered by 
 the construction of a rival line, but he 
 neglects to tell us that the Grand Trunk 
 Pacific Railway promoters were in favour 
 of building their short line, and making 
 Moncton their eastern terminus and that 
 they moved for this in the Railway Com- 
 mittee. He tells us that the building of 
 this new line will save a very few miles of 
 distance, that it will have heavier grades, 
 that it will in every other respect be a less 
 desirable road and that the whole thing 
 is a supreme act of folly. I have never 
 been over the line. He tells us what an 
 excellent road the Intercolonial Railway is, 
 how much business it is capal)le of doing, 
 and in the next place lie tells us that if we 
 took some of this money tliat we are to ex- 
 pend on the short line and reduced the 
 grades on the Intercolonial Railway, making 
 it a flrst-class road, it miglit be able to do 
 the business. What are the grades on the 
 Intercolonial Railway ? There are 02i-feet 
 grades and 50-foot grades to tlie mile. No 
 road can claim to be a flrst-class road with 
 grades more than one-half per cent or 20 
 feet to the mile. In the construction of tills 
 short line and in the construction of the 
 line from Quebec to Winnipeg it siiould be 
 an absolute condition that the road should 
 be flrst-class in point of siades. In point 
 of construction and in point of weight of 
 rails. The rails should not be less than 
 90-pound rails, and the grades should not be 
 
 moi han four-tenths per cent, and If these 
 condUions are complied with this road will 
 compete with a water ' 'Ute or anything 
 else. The object of the .uildlng of a short 
 line from Chaudl^re Junction to Moncton 
 is to correct the costly mistake that the 
 country made when the Intercolonial Rail- 
 way was constructed, and I regret not the 
 correcting of the mistake, but the making 
 of the mistake. All flrst-class railways In 
 America for the last ten or fifteen years 
 have Ijeen spending enormous sums of money 
 in correcting the mistakes made In their 
 first construction. The Pennsylvania, New 
 York Central, the Grand Trunk Railway, 
 and other first-class roads that I ccild name, 
 iiave been pumping out money like water, 
 quietly, without observation, for the pur- 
 pose of reducing grades, correcting the 
 alignment, taking out curves, and increas- 
 ing the power of the road to do business 
 and cam money. The Canadian Pacific 
 Railway has built a short line from Ottawa 
 to Montreal. It had a line already north 
 of the Ottawa river. Why did it do that ?— 
 because It was necessary. * 
 An hon. MEMBER. No sentiment there. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. No sentiment there. 
 It was business, it was necessary to have the 
 best conditions they could obtain In order 
 to secure the business. Why should we 
 shorten, straighten and improve the Inter- 
 colonial liaiiway? It is simply because we 
 have set out with the purpose of securing 
 trade for our own seaports, and if we are 
 to secure that trade we must have the best 
 obtainable conditions with regard to our 
 lines of transportation. We must not have 
 to so away around by the sea 120 miles fur- 
 tiier than a short line would take us; we 
 must not .have grades of C2J feet to the 
 mile, but we must reduce the distance, re- 
 duce the grades. Improve the efficiency of 
 the road and secure the necessary conditions 
 so far as it is possible to do so. in order 
 to get the trade that we aim to get. That 
 is wliy we dealt with the Intercolonial 
 Railway. But the whole question Is be- 
 fogged by the course which the hon. gentle- 
 man (Hon. Mr. Blair) has pursued in talk- 
 ing aliout tliis line and that line, and about 
 one line l)einK 10 miles longer than it was 
 represented to lie, and about crossing so 
 many gullies, and about this and that diflH- 
 cnlty to overronio. We have got to over- 
 come tliese difficulties : wo are putting that 
 road there for a specific purpose, and that 
 purjiose is to increase the capacity of tiie 
 road, to reduce the cost of the transporta- 
 tion of the products of the west to our mari- 
 time seaports. 
 
 Soino lion. MKMRKRS. Hear. bear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Tliat is the object wc 
 have in view. The hon. sentlcuian (Hon. 
 Mr. Blair) tells us that tlie Intercolonial will 
 have no l)usiiie':' in onse this Is done ex- 
 cept In the win. Well, I do not suppose 
 
it erer bad a local business that was a 
 marked source of rerenue to It. It is to 
 be regretted that It was. put where there 
 was no business to do, and no particular use 
 for a railway, and we have been pottering 
 along wltb that road and paying deficiencies 
 long enough, and now we want an efficient 
 line of railway. 
 
 Hon. Mr. BLAIR. When does the lion, 
 gentleman think I made that statement? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. What statement? 
 
 Hon. Mr. BLAIR. The statement the 
 hon. gentleman has Just attributed to me. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. What statement? 
 Hon. Mr. BLAIR. That the Intercolo- 
 nial R.ailway had no local business. 
 
 Mr. CHA^'TTON. Except in the winter 
 —would have, I said, In case this other line 
 was bnilt. The hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. 
 Blalr) misunderstood me. The statement 
 the hon. gentleman made was that in case 
 this short line was built the Intercolonial 
 Kalhvay would have no local business except 
 In the winter. 
 
 Hon. Mr. BLAIR. I said that this line 
 would have no ocean shipping business ex 
 cept in the winter. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. That Is the Intercolo- 
 nial Railway. 
 
 < Ml, no; the new lino. 
 I suppose that Is so. 
 
 Hon. Mr. BLAIR. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. 
 I suppose it Is Intended that this transcon 
 tlnental line shall lay down the products of 
 the west at Quebec during the season of 
 navigation, and when the harbour of Que- 
 bec is closed It is the intention to carry 
 that trade to Halifax and St. John, and for 
 that reason we want a good road. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It has not been as- 
 serted that we are going to carry grain to 
 these maritime ports while the port of Que- 
 bec is open, but Quebec Is to be our na- 
 tional port, and while It is open It will do 
 t'lie business that the transcontinental line 
 brings to It. 
 
 Now, I think the trouble with niv hon. 
 friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) is that his view is 
 somewhat circumscribed. He lias not yet 
 got out of provincial ideas and a provincial 
 range of vision; he has not ceased to be 
 provincial; he has not become continental 
 in his aspirations, in his desires, in his 
 grasp of afifair.s. We regi-et that tlie In- 
 tercolonial Railway will be Injured by this 
 new lino; we regi-et that It Is necessary to 
 spend some millions of dollars to rectify the 
 costly mistake that was made years ago. 
 but we are dealing now with a question of 
 national importance. Wo are dealing with 
 a question tliat is national In all its ii.'.-ir- 
 Ings; we are dealing with the question f 
 securing for our own .spaports the business 
 that would naturally go to the seaports 
 of another country, and whether wc can do 
 V 66-2 
 
 It or not I cannot venture to say, but I do 
 Teuture to say that we cannot do it unless 
 we construct roads of the very l)est char- 
 acter with the lowest possible grades. 
 
 In regard to that matter, as I was going 
 over to Vancouver a short time ago I aat 
 in the rear car of the train as we were pass- 
 ing north of Lake Superior, with General 
 Manager McNlcol, two or three American 
 railway magnates and a number of railway 
 men, and tlie discussion turned upon the 
 (juestlon of water transportation versus 
 transportation by rail. The subject of 
 discussion was whether railways could be 
 made to compete with water carriers, and 
 Mr. McNlcol stated that if the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway over which we were passing 
 h.id grades of four-tenths per cent per mile 
 (that Is 21 feet and a fraction) and some Im- 
 piovenieiit in its alignment, that it could 
 do four times the business it was doing 
 now, and that it could compete with the 
 water route. 
 
 Now, Sir, if we bulid a line from Wlnnl- 
 Iieg to Queb'C, say 1.400 miles long, and 
 If we can secure four-tenths per cent grades; 
 if we lay that road with 90 pound rails, If 
 we put bridges upon it that will carry the 
 heaviest locomotives and trains of cars, each 
 car carrying a load of 50 tons, we can carry, 
 in my opinion, praln from Winnipeg to Que- 
 bec for 12 cents a bushel and perhaps even 
 less. The lowest rate that I have known 
 for grain from Chicago to New York was 
 12 cents per hundred, or seven and two- 
 tenths cents per bushel for a distance of 
 1,000 inihs. Now. if it can be carried at 
 that rate with a prolit. and I don't suppose 
 it was carried at a loss, it Is a reasonable 
 calculation to suppose that we could carry 
 eraln over this road for 12 cents a bushel, 
 if it Is the iif.'lit kind of a road. But If 
 it lias nO feet grades to the mile; If It has 
 a light rail, if it is a second-class road we 
 can secure no business, we cut ourselves off 
 from liie conditions that are necessary to 
 secure business, and so we must bear "that 
 in mind when we are building this road. 
 
 My hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Blalr) In the 
 course of his remarks had a thrust at the 
 Globe. He stated that the Globe had an 
 article wliieli said that when this new road 
 was built there would be freight trains and 
 passenger trains on the road passing each 
 way 111 embarrassing abundance. Well, it 
 is a matter of conjecture, of course, as to 
 what kind of business this road might do. 
 The writer of that article perhaps looked 
 into the future, and he saw Canada with 
 vast d'^velopments. with a great increase of 
 population, with a great Increase of pro- 
 duction, with a great increase of business, 
 with business largely attracted over the 
 transcontinental line, and perhaps his fore- 
 east of the future was not so extravagant 
 after all. We do not know what the re- 
 sult may be; we have b en guilty, constant- 
 ly guilty, of underrating the capacity of our 
 country. This gentleman perhaps over- 
 
10 
 
 rated a little, but we cannot tell, and I 
 would ratber have speculation In tbat direc- 
 tion tban In tbe otber. 
 
 Now, I do not know but tbat porbaps my 
 lion, friend (Hon. Mr. Blair) would bave 
 looked wltb a somewbat greater degree of 
 favour upon this scheme If tbe road bad 
 gone to St Jobn, and it would perbaps bave 
 Bcrved tbe purposes of tb'^ countr.v just as 
 well if it bad. I do not know ns to tbat, 
 but tbe government were hound, in my opin- 
 ion, to adopt a course that was fair and im- 
 partial. They could not properly discri- 
 minate between Halifax and St. John In 
 favour of tbe one and against the other, and 
 they have adopted a plan wiiich will serve 
 the purposes of botli, and If St. John wants 
 to meet these conditions for reaching this 
 business, let them promote the construction 
 Of n road up to this short line and nobody 
 will bave any objection to tbat. 
 
 Mr. TUCKER. Tber.' is a road to Chip- 
 man now. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Let that road be im- 
 proved and made first-class, and let them 
 get tbe business at tbat point. Tbe gov- 
 ernment, I think, acted with perfect pro- 
 priety in placing tbe eastern terminus of 
 tb« road at Monctou, from which point both 
 St. John and Halifax will be accessible, 
 though tbe advantage in distance will be In 
 favour of St. John. 
 
 Mr. TUCKER. It Increases the distance 
 to St. John 89 miles. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Well, you want to 
 cut that off. Now, Mr. Speaker, a good deal 
 of criticism has been indulged in by the 
 hon. gentleman in regard to the increase 
 of our debt. We are to add $15,000,000 to 
 It by tbe construction of tbe section, from 
 Moncton to Cbaudl&re Junction, and untold 
 millions by the construction of tbe line 
 from Quebec to Winnipeg, and by the 
 guarantees of the line west of Winnipeg. 
 I did not hear tbe hon. gentleman make 
 anything of the fact tbat this was In 
 reality a mere lease to a railway company, 
 and that the company was to pay Interest 
 OD the cost of tbe line. We shall have some 
 little burden on tbe country, of course. We 
 shall bave Interest to pay for seven years 
 on the cost of the line from Moncton to 
 Winnipeg, and probably some little Interest 
 to pay on our guarantee of a portion of the 
 cost of the line west of Winnipeg. All this 
 may amount to ?14,000,000 or $15,000,000: 
 but tbat Is a small consideration In com- 
 parison wltb the benefit to the country 
 resulting from the construction of this trans- 
 continental line. 
 
 Tbe hon. gentleman refers to tbe prem- 
 ier's statement with regard to this road 
 as a national line, and Intimates tbat the 
 premier paid no attention whatever to the 
 commercial side of th? question— that this 
 bad no bearing with blm, but that tbe 
 national consideration wholly governed his 
 course In tbe matter. This was not a fair 
 
 presentation of tbe views expressed by tbe 
 premier. The premier did, as he was en- 
 titled to do, lay due stress on tbe Importance 
 of the construction of this road from a 
 national standpoint, for tbe purjwse of hav- 
 ing a railway on our own soil from ocean to 
 ocean. He took high ground In that respect, 
 a ground which I think the country will 
 support him In taking. But he did not lose 
 sight of tbe commercial aspects of the case 
 —far from It. While dwelling on tbe nation- 
 al Importance of tbe road, be pointed out 
 at the same time that its commercial re- 
 sults would be In the highest degi'ce Im- 
 portant and satisLK-tory. 
 
 Tbe hon. ex-Minister of Railways enters 
 into a financial statement wltb regard to 
 this road, and estimates Its cost from Monc- 
 ton to Winnipeg at $35,000 per mile. Well, 
 it is impossible to say whether that esti- 
 mate is a correct one or not ; the prob- 
 ability is that it is excessive. You must 
 bear in mind that this is a question of the 
 construction of a railway without equip- 
 ment. The cost of equii)ment adds very 
 largely to the cost of a railway line. Thlt 
 line is simply to be constructed and band- 
 ed over to the Grand Trunk Pacific Rail- 
 way Company, and that company is to i)lace 
 tlie equipment upon it. I do not believe 
 tbat this road will cost over $30,000 a mile 
 from Moncton to ChaudiSre Junction, and 
 I doubt very much that It will cost more 
 than $30,000 per mile or even that, from 
 Quebec to Winnipeg. The hon. gentleman, 
 in reckoning tbe burdens that will rest on 
 the government in connection with the 
 guarantee of the western section, assumes 
 that the government guai'antee will amount 
 to the cost of building the road. He over- 
 looks the fact that the guarantee of tbe 
 government is to cover merely three-fourths 
 of the cost of the road, and tbat when tbe 
 government advances this guarantee, it 
 takes over the security of tbe road and its 
 equipment, Including what Ihe company has 
 put into it, so that the s?turity is ample. 
 
 Tbe hon. gentleman refers at some length 
 to the question of the stock. What Is there 
 about this stock question ? There is to 
 be $45,000,000 of stock. Of that, $20,000,- 
 000 Is to be preferred stock, which goes Into 
 tbe equipment of tbe road, and $2.5,000,000 
 is to be common stock. The hon. gentle- 
 man would lead us to suppose that tbat 
 will all go into tbe pockets of ;he share- 
 holders and directors. What will It be 
 used for ? Why, Sir, tbe company will re- 
 quire money with which to build elevators, 
 to improve the road, and for various pur- 
 poses In connection with the operation of 
 tbe road. It will require money to carry 
 out Its stipulation with regard to providing 
 vesspls and shipping facilities at each end 
 of the road. That Is what that stock is set 
 apart for— $20,000,000 of preferred stock 
 for equipment, and $25,000,000 of common 
 stock to be used for these various purposes 
 to which I have referred. 
 
11 
 
 The hon. gentleman regrets that it Is not 
 the Grand Trunk Railway that is going 
 Into the west, but the Grand Trunk Pacific 
 Railway. Well, It strikes me that there is 
 a distinction without a difference, i think 
 we shall be thankful if we get the Grand 
 Trunk Pacific Railway into the North-west, 
 with the stipulations and conditions with 
 which It is hedged round— with all these 
 stipulations which place it absolutely in the 
 hands of the government, as to the opera- 
 tion of the road, as to its maintenance, as 
 to providing facilities at each end of the 
 road for the transaction of business, and 
 as to not discriminating against Canadian 
 ports and in favour of American ports. The 
 hon. gentleman asks what that condition 
 about discrimination amounts to. He says 
 the company will send their agents through 
 the Xorth-west, and will quietly secure 
 freight and have it shipped with their own 
 connivance to American ports. Well, this 
 company enters into a solemn agreement not 
 to discriminate against Canadian ports. But 
 he tells us that we have no penalties by 
 which we can enforce the fulfilment of this 
 agreement. Is the whole thing ended when 
 this Bill passes? We have to go on and 
 perfect the conditions by a lease ; and what 
 does this agreement say In regard to that ? 
 It says : 
 
 The said lease shall also contain such other 
 convenants and provisions, including proper 
 Indemnity to the Kovernment in respect of thp 
 working of the railway, as may be deemed neces- 
 sary by the government to secure' the proper 
 carrying out of this agreement. 
 
 Does not that cover the ground ? The 
 hon. gentleman surely could not have read 
 that. The government have a most care- 
 fully prepared agreement here. After read- 
 ing It over and over again, I cannot see 
 any point that has been neglected. I pro- 
 nounce it a perfect agreement. The time 
 that has been devoted to the perfection of 
 this scheme ha« not been mis-spent or 
 wasted. 
 
 Xow, Mr. Speaker, I have got through 
 with a sort of rambling criticism of my 
 hon. friend's speech, and I have my own 
 speech to make yet. As it is now a quarter 
 to eleven, and as the newspapers have not 
 been able to insert anything that has been 
 uttered here for the last hour, I beg to move 
 the adjournment of the debate. 
 
 August 12, 1903. 
 
 Mr. JOHN CHARLTON (North NorfoliO- 
 Mr. Speaker. At the close of my remarks 
 last evening I had very nearly finished my 
 review of the speech of the hon. the ex-Mlii- 
 ister of Railways (Mr. Blair). I have only 
 n word to add to what I have already said 
 In that connection. I have thought over the 
 position of that hon. gentleman ; thought It 
 over carefully, and I am obliged to arrive at 
 V 00-2i 
 
 the conclusion that there was no sufficient 
 reason for the course that he has taken. 
 When I contrast his declarations In his 
 speech made In Victoria last October, in 
 which he asserted that we wanted another 
 transcontinental road, that we wanted It 
 right away, that we wanted to penetrate 
 and open up new districts of country In the 
 North-west and fit them for settlemeut-r 
 when I contrast that with his statement of 
 yesterday : that we do not want a trans- 
 continental road now, that we should delay 
 In proceeding with the construction of that 
 road, that tlie government were proceeding 
 with indecent and reckless haste In the 
 matter ; the two positions are irreconcilable, 
 entirely irreconcilable. He puts me in 
 mind of a story I read a few years 
 ago as to the great riot In Chicago. 
 A United States regiment of regulars 
 who had been engaged in a winter cam- 
 paign under General Miles against the Sioux 
 Indians, were on their way to quarters in the 
 east where they were to be granted a respite 
 from their labours. They were ragged and 
 toil-worn but they were veterans evidently, 
 and as they were drawn np In line a person 
 on the side walk said to the soldier nearest 
 to him : you would not shoot us fellows 
 would you ? He replied : I would not 
 unless the captain told me to. Now, the 
 dlfllculty with the ex-Mlnlster of Railways 
 is that he did not shoot when the captain 
 told him to. It Is necessary to have dis- 
 cipline in an army, it is necessary to have 
 discipline In a party. Individual men may 
 have very strong individual opinions— I 
 belong to that category myself 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. But it is unreasonable 
 for an Individual to suppose that a party 
 must accept his opinions and act upon them, 
 and it is in the highest degree injudicious for 
 that Individual to kick over the traces be- 
 cause he cannot govern the party, for, In 
 doing that, he destroys what little infiuence 
 he might otherwise possess, and that Is 
 what my hon. friend the ex-MInlster of Rail- 
 ways and Canals, I fear has done. 
 
 Now, as I have said, there Is no radical 
 difference between the policy that the hon. 
 gentleman (Hon. Mr. Blair) advocates, 
 namely a government road ; there Is no 
 radical difference between that policy and 
 the policy adopted by the government, of a 
 road partly of government construction, 
 partly aided by the government, leased by 
 the government to a private corporation a 
 road lestlned to serve the same pui se 
 under the arrangement that Is made that a 
 road would have served if it had been 
 strictly a government road— I say there la 
 no radical difference between these two 
 -propositions ; no difference so radical l>e- 
 tween them as to warrant the hon. gentle- 
 man to resign his position as Minister of 
 Railways, and to go against the government 
 as he did most unmistakably and most bit* 
 
12 
 
 terly jesterdajr. His position yesterday, 
 lacking as it did that dignity wliicb ought 
 to pertain to the position of a gentleman who 
 resigns on high patriotic and moral grounds, 
 and the bitterness of bis attack convinced 
 me that there is something beneath and 
 beyond the ostensible reason assigned for 
 his leaving the cabinet. 
 
 ' Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, bear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. I repeat what I said 
 last nlgbt, that the hon. gentleman in the 
 course of his remarks gives us a clue to 
 bis feelings in regard to tbls matter, a clue 
 to his action ii^ this matter, when he tells 
 UB that be was not consulted, that no official 
 of the Intercolonial Railway was consulted, 
 that the government forsooth, that the 
 Premier of tbls country and bis advisers pro- 
 ceeded to organize and arrange a policy 
 about which the hon. gentleman was not 
 consulted and which be did not approve of. 
 I Imagine Mr. Speaker, that when that hon. 
 gentleman resigned, be had arrived at the 
 conclusion that he would make the captain 
 shoot at his command Instead of shooting 
 at the captain's command. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. • And the outcome was 
 that the captain did not shoot, .nnd that the 
 rebellious member retired from the ranks, 
 and he Is out of the ranks. I nm sorry for 
 the whole incident ; I am sorry that the ex- 
 minister (Hon. Mr. Rlair) should have 
 thought so highly of his own individual 
 opinion ; should have decided that it was 
 necessary for the government to accept his 
 opinion and act upon it, and that if the gov- 
 ernment failed to do so be would leave the 
 government in the lurcli. Well, he has left 
 the government in the lurch, if being de- 
 prived of the hon. gentleman's sanction 
 could place them In that position. Now. Sir. 
 the hon. gentleman (Hon. Mr. Blair) devoted 
 a large portion of bis speech to the Inter- 
 colonial Railway. As I said last night, I 
 shall leave the detailed discussion of that 
 matter to gentlemen better acquainted with 
 the condition of affairs in the maritime 
 provinces than I am myself. Still, it is 
 patent to me, and must be patent to any per- 
 son who has a fair knowledge of the situa- 
 tion, that the hon. gentleman in his criticism 
 upon the policy of the government witli re- 
 gard to the Intercolonial did not take the 
 pains to put us in possession of all the facts. 
 He laments the ruin of the Intercolonial. He 
 laments that we did not adhere to the policy 
 of attempting to create a business for our 
 maritime ports by using a second-class road 
 with an unnecessary mileage of from 100 to 
 140 miles, with heavy grades, and one that 
 we know cannot fulfil the conditions that 
 we must expect of It if the scheme of the 
 government Is to be made a success. He 
 did not tell us that the Grand Trunk Pacific 
 and the Grand Trunk are separate and dis- 
 tinct corporations. He di^ not tell us that 
 
 the government bad a contract with the 
 Grand Trunk for 99 years to turn over to 
 the Intercolonial at Montreal all irelght the 
 road brings to Montreal designed for points 
 east of Quebec. The Intercolonial can- 
 not be deprived of the business, one of the 
 largest items of business it possesses. He 
 made no calculation as to the great accession 
 to this road of business at Moncton for Hall- 
 fax and St. John. If the straightening of its 
 line, if the reducing of its grades. If the in- 
 crease in its capacity, which are making It 
 flrst-class and shorter, will lead to bringing 
 from the west of a large amount of grain 
 for shipment at maritime ports, the Inter- 
 colonial must share in the benefit. The 
 Grand Trunk Pacific ends at Moncton. There 
 are 183 miles of the Intercolonial road to 
 share in the business that will come to 
 Halifax ; there are 80 miles from Moncton 
 to St. John to share in the business. The 
 gross business of the Intercolonial will in- 
 evitably be increased l)y the construction 
 of this short line, owing to the large Increase 
 of traffic between Quebec and the maritime 
 provinces ; and there is besides the retention 
 to the Intercolonial of the tr.ide whlcb I have 
 mentioned that pertains to it and that can- 
 not be taken away from it. I will not dwell 
 further upon the position taken by the hon. 
 gentleman ; I will not criticise further his 
 statements. 
 
 As I said last night, I have a line of 
 argument to present with relation to 
 thl.s scheme of the Grand Trunk Pacific 
 which I propose to enter upon briefiy at 
 this stage of my remarks. As to the ques- 
 tion whether we need another transcontin- 
 ental railway, the question has been an- 
 swered by the ex-Mlnister of Railways (Hon. 
 .Mr. Blair)) at Vancouver. I can quote 
 him as an authority. According to him, we 
 need the road and we need it quickly. It 
 cannot be proceeded with too soon. He said 
 on tliat occasion that men were standing In 
 the audience who would live to see three or 
 four transcontinental lines across the contin- 
 ent. I have no doubt be was right. At all 
 events, the construction of this road Is not 
 premature. We must bear in mind the fact 
 that wo cannot get this road at once. We 
 are taking the Initiative steps now towards 
 getting it. Wo have to proceed with sur- 
 veys, we have to locate the line ; we have 
 to proceed with the construction of a road 
 .3,030 miles long in an air-line, and it cannot 
 be done at once. It will take several years 
 to do It. In the meantime, population is 
 pom ing into the North-west, new acreage 
 is being brought into cultivation ; its prolific 
 soli will furnish a large harvest every year, 
 and at the time tbls road will he completed, 
 it will be a crying necessity. We have un- 
 dertaken its construction none too soon. I 
 estimate that five years from to-day with a 
 continuance of the conditions that exist now, 
 the grain products of the Canadian North- 
 west will have increasced nt least three- 
 fold. The present means of transportation 
 
13 
 
 win prove utterly inadequate and tbis road 
 will be Imperatlvelj called for. Tbe govern- 
 ment, I repeat, are not acting wltb 
 undue baste, or proceeding with an 111- 
 mntured acheme. Tbey are not entering 
 upon an enterprise wblch tbey are n war- 
 ranted In entering upon ; but on ti con- 
 trary, they are entering upon a st'ieme 
 which Is called for and called for now. 
 
 I pointed out last night that our situation, 
 so far as our great wheat producing region 
 Is concerned, and the situation of the United 
 States when it was a young country, are 
 entirely different. Tbe United States had an 
 outlet by the Mississippi to the Gulf of 
 Mexico. There were navigable rivers scat- 
 tered alo-.g tbe Atlantic coast— the Hudson, 
 the Savannah and other rivers. At an early 
 date a canal was constructed from Albany 
 to Lake Erie, tapping the waters of tbe 
 Great Lakes. Tbe country was able to get 
 alous largely without railways. In 1850, 
 when the country had 23,000,000 Inhabitants, 
 railroads had hardly become a factor in the 
 transportation situation at all. But we are 
 situated differently. We have no Missis- 
 sippi to convey the products of our western 
 fields to tbe sea ; we have no Erie canal ; 
 we have no natural outlet, not even bv ac- 
 cess by navigable rivers to the Hudsoybay; 
 If we were to have a route, it would have 
 to be provided by artificial means. The 
 whole country, to as far north as tbe Iso- 
 thermal lines make It possible to produce 
 cereals, must depend on railroads excUisive- 
 l.v. For this reason our situation Is different 
 from that of the United States. We hnve to 
 provide our North-west with the means of 
 communication which are absolutely essen- 
 tial to Its success and its prosperity. Con- 
 sequently delay in providing those facili- 
 ties Is inadvisable, and I dismiss the asser- 
 tion as to the action of the government in 
 proceeding wltb this railway being prema- 
 ture as totally without foundation, as be- 
 traying a lamentable Ignorance of the con- 
 ditions that exist and the probable wants of 
 the near future. 
 
 The gove-nment proceeded carefully to the 
 consideration of this question. The speech 
 from the Throne contained an allusion to the 
 necissity for a transcontinental line. The 
 government were evidently considering the 
 propriety first of constituting a transporta- 
 tion commission to examine into this ques- 
 tion and to report as to the proper course 
 to pursue. But it became evident that 
 there was not time to wait for the slow oper- 
 atif of an Investigation by a commission. 
 It betame evident that the time for action 
 wr.s now, and that If we could secure such 
 knowledge as would place us In possession 
 of tbe facts that would warrant us In tak- 
 ing action, we should proceed. Well, what 
 was done? The government iM'oceeded to 
 consider several propositions. They con- 
 sidered a proposition of building a govern- 
 ment road, considered It carefully, as I am 
 well aware, and rejected that proposition— 
 
 tbe propoiitlon which my hon. friend th« 
 ex-Mlnister of Railways and Canals pin* 
 bis faith to, the proposition upon which he 
 has gone out of office because the govern- 
 ment did not accept It. I say tbe govern- 
 ment rejected that proposition for what I 
 suppose I may fairly concede were good and 
 sufficient reasons, although I was enamoured 
 of It. The government realized that to make 
 a success of a government road across the 
 continent required tbe total severance of 
 that scheme from politics. Can that be done 
 in Canada ? 
 
 Mr. MACLEAN. Yes. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. The government 
 thought not and so do I. It required, in the 
 second place, honesty In construction. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. That would require the 
 possession of expert knowledge in supervis- 
 ing and carrying on that work, wblch per- 
 haps no gentleman in this House possesses. 
 It required in tbe third place, honesty of 
 management, capacity for efiicient manage- 
 ment and an amount of expert railway 
 knowledge which we do not find among men 
 In public life. I doubt whether my hon. friend 
 from East York would fill the bill. It would 
 require a man like Sir Thomas Shaugh- 
 nessy or Mr. Hay, at a salary of $50,000 or 
 $75,000 per year, to manage efficiently such 
 a scheme. Whether tl government were 
 right or wrong, whetb .eir reasons for 
 rejecting the proposltio) .-re sound or not, 
 they did reject It. 
 
 Mr. MACLEAN. Canada does not grow 
 that kind of man ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It does, but they are 
 not in this House. We have not many rail- 
 way experts In this House. The government 
 proceeded next to consider a proposition for 
 the construction of the road in the old 
 fashioned way, that of granting subsidies. 
 There was a proposition to build a road from 
 North Bay to the west, which Involved a 
 land grant of 5,000 acres per mile and a 
 money grant of .$6,400 per mile. Well, the 
 government have never adopted the system 
 of making land grants to railways, and 
 wisely concluded that this waai not a good 
 time to begin It. So that proposition was 
 dropped. Then a compromise proposition 
 was accepted, namely, the construction of 
 a road, over which the government should 
 have supervision. One division of that 
 road, estimated at 1,835 miles in length, 
 was to be constructed by the govern- 
 ment, but the company was to lease the 
 road and was thus Interested In having 
 the cost of tho construction kept down. 
 The company Is to have tbe right of 
 Investigating whether the government was 
 doing the work economically or not and is 
 given sufficient control to enable It to do so. 
 This Is the scheme which was adopted for 
 the construction by the government of the 
 
u 
 
 eaitern section. Perbap* It would have 
 suited my bon. friend, tbe ex-Mlnlster of 
 Railways, better If he had had the disposal 
 of the contracts for building that road, 
 but I thlnkl, It will be constructed fully as j 
 cheaply under the arrangement arrived at. | 
 Then we have the construction of a line 
 from Winnipeg to Port Simpson by the 
 company, the right being reserved to the 
 government to audit the accounts and super- 
 vise the work nnd take any necessary steps 
 to see that the work Is done properly, and 
 that tbe company Is not stuffing Its accounts 
 so as to give a fictitious cost to the road, on 
 which to secure the government guarantee 
 of the bonds. By this scheme we are to 
 hnve the eastern section owned by the gov- 
 ernment and leased to and operated by the 
 company, and the western section owned by 
 the company and operated under the super- 
 vision of the government, which Is to have 
 control of the rates. This scheme will serve 
 the purposes of the country, I think, pos- 
 sibly better than the construction of a gov- 
 ernment road, even If a government road 
 could have been constructed with all the 
 conditions necessary for success which 1 
 have mentioned. 
 
 There were three schemes before the gov- 
 ernment, and taking e.erything into con- 
 sideration. In my opinion tL<.y acted wisely 
 and have adopted the scheme which la the 
 safest and most likely to confer on the 
 country great advantages. 
 
 The government were criticised for delay. 
 My right hon. friend the leader of tbe op- 
 position, every day or two, would inquire 
 when this contract was to be brought down, 
 what was the cause of delay, why we were 
 kept daiicing attendance while the govern- 
 ment were shilly-shallying. They were 
 asked : ' Why do you not bring your policy 
 before the country ? What are you doing ? 
 But yesterday we had my hon friend the ex- 
 Mlnlster of Railways telling us that they 
 have shown undue and unseemingly haste. 
 
 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). If my hon. friend 
 win allow me. It had been announced in the 
 government organs, over and over again, 
 that a certain policy was to be brought 
 down, and I protested against the House 
 being kept from day to day and week to 
 week waiting for the government to 
 announce ' policy. I was not Insisting on 
 the gove -nt bringing down a policy, but 
 Insisting ,iiat. if they had any policy to 
 bring down, they should bring It down at 
 once. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. The government were 
 probably In a position In which circum- 
 stances were arising that rendered them un- 
 able to say definitely bow soon they would 
 arrive at a decision. They had announced 
 their Intention of bringing down a railway 
 policy, but th«y may have thought that they 
 would be able to announce It earlier than 
 they did. They took time however to con- 
 sider and weigh carefully all he conditions 
 
 before concluding finally an agreement Wttn 
 the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway. That 
 agreement will stand as a monument of their 
 sagacity. And they brought down their 
 policy with celerity and despatch. If we con- 
 sider all the circumstances attendant upon 
 the case. It was proper that they should 
 take careful action. We were at the parting 
 of the ways. We had, on the one hand, 
 the policy recommended of building a gov- 
 ernment road. On the other hand, we had 
 the policy recommended of assisting the con- 
 struction of a road In the old fashioned 
 way of granting subsidies. Between these 
 two policies, the government had one 
 which Is better than either, but which 
 required time and careful consideration 
 l)ec'auso there were vast Interests at 
 stake ; and If, owing to the absence 
 of due care and thorough consideration, 
 mistakes became developed In the future, 
 through the adoption of the scheme recom- 
 mended by the government, my hon. friend 
 the leader of the opposition would not be 
 slow to say that they had acted too quick- 
 ly and brought down their policy too soon. 
 ■ In adopting this policy, the primary con- 
 sideration which the povernment had In 
 view was the national interest— the build- 
 Ins of a national road to connect our At- 
 lantic with our Pacific ports, and which 
 would pass all the way through Canadian 
 terrltorv. That object they have kept stead- 
 ily in view. They desired to secure trade 
 from the North-west for our own ocean 
 ports or as large a share of that trade as 
 possible. I do not say this all-rail route 
 will be able to compete successfully with 
 the water route ; but I do say that it will 
 not, unless It be made flrst-class in every 
 respect. I notice that the ' Mail ' newspaper 
 has an editorial contrasting my position 
 with that which I took on the transporta- 
 tion question in a speech I made on May 
 the 26th last. I took the position then that 
 water transportation was cheaper from the 
 North-west to the seaboard than transporta- 
 tion by rail, under the then existing condi- 
 tions. " I take the same position to-''ay. If 
 this road from Quebec to Winnipeg is to 
 he a road with fifty feet or sixty feet grades, 
 with light rails, and of Inferior construc- 
 tion. If It Is to be no hettov thnn tlie other 
 rallwavs with which It will have to com- 
 pote, it will he distanced In the race ; and 
 to that extent I endorse the position which 
 I took In my speech of May the 26th. 1 
 was then discussing water versus railway 
 trnnsportatlon 'i the then existing condi- 
 tions. 
 
 As I said last night, this road from Winni- 
 peg to Quebec, If it Is to serve the purpose 
 which It is Intc-i; ;1 to serve, must be a 
 first class road. It must have not more 
 than half per cent grades, and should have 
 four-tenths per cent grades coming east, or 
 twentv-one feet to the mile. It should be 
 laid with 90-ponnd rails, should have bridges 
 that would carry the h lest rolling stock 
 
tftmm 
 15 
 
 r 
 
 In use, with a margin to allow for nn in* 
 crenne In the weight of rolling stock ; it 
 should have engines of 00 tons weight with- 
 out the tender and car» of 50 tons capacity 
 of cargo. The road must be built with 
 bridges capable of sustaining the weight of 
 cars with n carrying capacity W) per cent 
 greater than Is now required and with cor- 
 responding increase In weight of engines. 
 And with a road of that Itlnd, consider- 
 ing prospective improvements in railway 
 material, I feel hopeful that the route 
 will be able to compete with the water 
 route. There has been a constant, a regu- 
 lar inci-ease In the eflBcIency of railway 
 transportation. We have had the Introduc- 
 tion of the fish-plate .loint, maljing i>ractl 
 cally a continuous rail. We have li.ul the 
 Introtluction of the steel rail In place of the 
 Iron rail. We have had the lucreasi In the 
 weight of the rail. We have had the In- 
 crease in the firmness of the road-bed. We 
 have had a great Increase In the weight and 
 hauling capacity of engines, and an Increase 
 In the carrying capacity of cars from 10 
 tons to 50 tons. Trains are run on first-class 
 roads with a capacity of hauling 2,000 tons 
 of cargo to the train without requiring any 
 greater force of engineers, firemen, bralte- 
 men and other attaches of the train than 
 were required twenty years ago for trains 
 that carried 250 or 300 tons. And this pro- 
 gress and improvement still goes on ; the 
 efficiency of railways will be still further 
 Increased. And with the kind of road that 
 I foreshadow— not the kind of roads that 
 exist now in competition with the water 
 transportation— It Is my belief that we can 
 compete with the water route. I know of 
 a road with a maximum grade of 19 feet to 
 the mile running from Buffalo to Detroit 
 through the province of Ontario. The only 
 limit to the size of their trains on that road 
 is the question of their management— 
 whether they are too unwieldy to be man- 
 aged or not ; they do not like a train that is 
 over half a mile long. They can haul upon 
 that road sixty or seventy loaded freight 
 cars with the utmost ease. Compare that 
 with a road on which the emgln* la 
 struggling up a gi-ade of sixty or seventy 
 feet to the mile with twelve or fifteen cars, 
 and you can see the difference between a 
 first-class road and a second-class road. 
 We want a road from Winnipeg to Quebec 
 thoroughly first-class In its construction 
 and equipment ; a road that, In the ordin- 
 ary way of business, can carry trains with 
 2,000 tons of freight. If we get that kind 
 of a road, in my opinion we can transport 
 wheat from Winnipeg to Quebec for less 
 than 12 cents per bushel. Now, the rate 
 to-day from Winnipeg to Port Arthur by 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway is 7J cents 
 per bushel. And, at the rate I have given 
 as a basis of transportation between Winni- 
 peg and the lakes, the transportation on 
 this line will be cheaper than the present 
 transportation jwrtly by water and partly 
 by rail. 
 
 Mr. McCREARY. The rate from Winni- 
 peg to Port Arthur Is more than 7} cents a 
 bushel ; It is 14 cents a hundred. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. They have lately re- 
 duced the rate. I was speaking with Sir 
 Thomas Shaughnessy the other day, and 
 ho told nio they had 'educed the rate to 7J 
 cents per bushel. ^^ uh the kind of road I 
 am talking about, It is my opinion we can 
 carry grain from Winnipeg to Quebec la 
 competition with the partly water and the 
 partly rail routes that pass to the south. 
 And at this point I wish to impress upon 
 the government the absolute necessity of 
 securing the construction of a rotid of this 
 kind. If because of difficulties of engineer- 
 ing. If because of enhanced cost of the road, 
 wu permit ourselves to construct a road 
 with grades of 50 or 00 feet to the mile, we 
 shall defeat our own purpose ; we cannot 
 do what we desire that this road should do 
 —that Is, compete with the other routes. 
 Rut with a road of the kind I speak of, 
 we can In all probability transport freight- 
 to Quebec successfully. And 1 say this in 
 the face of the arguments I used on the 20th 
 of May last, comparing water rates with 
 th3 rates on the now existing roads from 
 the west to the east. 
 
 Mr. SPROULE. The hon. gentleman's 
 (Mr. Charlton's) argument is the exact re- 
 verse of what he said then. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It wIU be evident that 
 when I am dealing with new conditions, 
 when I am dealing with a road entirely 
 different from the class of road we have 
 now, I am entitled to say that the results 
 probably will be different. An argument 
 based upon the old condition of things will 
 not apply to the new conditions. 
 
 Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). What Is the 
 hon. gentleman's (Mr. Charlton's) estimate 
 of the cost of a road of that character ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. I am coming to that, 
 and 
 
 Mr. SPROULE. I thought the hon. gen- 
 tleman (Mr. Charlton) was arguing the ab- 
 stract question of carriage by rail and car- 
 riage by water. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It will be conduclTe, 
 I think, to the object of this debate to allow 
 me to proceed without Interruption. If, 
 when I get through, there is anything I 
 have not touched upon, I shall be happy to 
 deal with It. Mr. Speaker, it is evident that 
 the government comprehends the magni- 
 tude of this Issue ; for It Is an U ue of 
 great magnitude ; we have not been con- 
 fronted with 80 great a one since the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway debate. The gorera- 
 ment comprehends the magnitude of this 
 Issue and has conscientiously done its best 
 And I may be allowed to say to my bon. 
 friends opposite that this is a question tbat 
 affects the future of this great countir, 
 with its three millions of square milea of 
 territory, with Its enormous resources and 
 
•it %gsy"' ''* 
 
 16 
 
 . ); 
 
 poteutialltles and with Iti iplendid future. 
 Wo are conslderlos tbe best means of sub- 
 serving the Interests of this country. This 
 should not be a party question ; there should 
 not be objections raised for tbe mere pur- 
 pose of making party capital ; but we should 
 get down to the consideration of this pro- 
 blem on business principles, and make up 
 our minds on the basis of the evidence we 
 have, and arrive, If we can, at a reasonable 
 conclusion as to the probable outcome of 
 this policy. . ^ . 
 
 Now, the government has had m view 
 In this matter a two-fold object, and it 
 has not confined Its attention to one or to 
 the other. T)ie first objoct Is to provide an 
 additional out'H for the grain of the North- 
 west ; the second object Is to afford that 
 outlet for the grain of the North-west In 
 such a way as to direct the trade of that 
 country to our own ports. These two ob- 
 jects the government have kept steadily in 
 view In discussing, evolving and ccnsummat- 
 -Ing the policy which It now places before 
 the country. Now, we could have got over 
 this question a great deal easier. There 
 wonid have been no trouble nbont giving 
 an outlet for the trade of the North-west 
 with perhaps the expenditure of no money 
 at all. We had only to allow these roads 
 to reach Lake Superior. Perhaps we might 
 have granted a little aid for that purpose. 
 We had simply to allow the Jim Hill road 
 and other American roads to come In with- 
 out let or hindrance, without bonus or aid, 
 and they would have furnished the North- 
 west with an outlet and carried Its grain to 
 Dulutb, Minneapolis, and Chicago, and 
 so over American roads to the ocean. 
 This would have been Just as good 
 an outlet as any other, so far as the 
 mere Interest of the farmer is con- 
 cerned, but it would not have served a 
 national purpose, It would have diverted the 
 trade from our own ports and would have 
 been a suicidal policy. The government 
 have avoided such a policy. They have not 
 counted a few millions as weighing against 
 the fact that such a settlement of the trans- 
 portation problem would have taken away 
 from our own ports this great trade of to- 
 day, this trade which Is to be so much 
 greater In the future. So, due weight has 
 been given to national considerations ; and 
 when my hon. friends opposite belittle these 
 considerations and make an effort to throw 
 odium upon the government's policy and to 
 show that what Is claimed for this route 
 cannot be accomplished. I do not think they 
 are acting a patriotic part in the matter. 
 
 Now, I wish, Mr. Speaker, to refer to the 
 physical features of the scheme. It designs 
 to make Quebec the great seaport of the 
 Dominion; that is the first great physical 
 feature of this scheme. It will reach Que- 
 bec by a direct route from Winnipeg, it 
 will reach the best harbour in the Dominion, 
 or one of the best harbours; and the only 
 drawback to It Is that It Is closed for some 
 
 portion of the year. After bavlng glran 
 Quebec a business tbat that port can trans- 
 act daring the season of open navigation, 
 It is designed to carry tbat trade on during 
 the winter to ports In the maritime pro- 
 vinces, to the port of Halifax, to the port of 
 St. John. It proposes to give the very best 
 conditions that are attainable for securing 
 that object. It may be tbat it cannot be 
 done, but we Intend to attempt it, and to 
 attempt It by using the best means in onr 
 power to accomplish the purpose. A flrst- 
 class road from Winnipeg to Quebec and the 
 maritime provinces for the purpose of secur- 
 ing the trade of the North-west for these 
 ports— that Is the object had In view by the 
 government, that Is the purpose they intend 
 to attempt to attain ; and If our hon. friends 
 on the opposite side wish to throw obstacles 
 In the way of that purpose, why, I merely 
 say that In that regard they are not patrio- 
 tic. 
 Mr. BENNETT. From such a source. 
 Mr. CHARLTON. I remember, Mr. 
 Speaker, some twenty-one years ago when 
 the party that I belonged to at that time 
 occupied very much the same attitude that 
 my hon. friends opposite occupy to-day, be- 
 littling to some extent, casting aspersions 
 upon, raising objections to, and magnify- 
 ing the obstacles in the way of the construc- 
 tion of a transcontinental line. Well, some 
 of our objections were well taken, but the 
 general trend of our policy was not to our 
 advantage. The country believed In a trans- 
 continental line, and wanted It, and got it. 
 We believe now that the country believes 
 In another, and wants It, and Is going to get 
 It; and hon. gentlemen who stand In the 
 way of consummation of that purpose will 
 find that they have been poor politicians 
 and still poorer statesmen. 
 
 The next physical feature of this road that 
 I shall refer to is the fact that it opens up 
 a vast unsettled area in Ontario and Quebec. 
 It is a colonization road for 1,300 miles. It 
 passes through our hinterland, opens It up, 
 and while opening it up, roes over the 
 best route for a direct line irom Winnipeg 
 to Quebec. This road passing through this 
 hinterland, with a trunk branch running 
 down the valley of the Nottawa river,— I 
 presume some of my hearers have never 
 heard of the Nottawa river, a stream about 
 the size of the Ottawa, with what is sup- 
 posed to be an extensive and fertile valley. 
 This branch will go to a harbour upon 
 I James' bay, and will open up a vast section 
 of country that will be tributary to this road. 
 That Is another physical feature. This road, 
 ' through its connection with the extension 
 of the Temlskamlng road being built by 
 the Ontario government will provide access 
 to Ontario centres for all the couc' 7 tribu- 
 tary to this Grand Trunk Pacific I .'. But 
 this Temlskamlng road will not serve as a 
 line to divert traffic to other ports than the 
 port of Quebec. The road .will run from Win- 
 
 X 
 
 M 
 
 V !>•« 
 
17 
 
 t- 
 
 :, 
 
 nlp*g weit largely through a new country, 
 a TBit anwttled region, a region tupposed 
 
 u„S°'!l**il ^''Sr A*?*"* ■"* "••* productive 
 land In the North-weet It will open up 
 a region from north of the Saskatchewan 
 to Dunvegan on the Peace river; and 
 thence up the Peace River valley and 
 through the Peace River pais to Port Simp- 
 son on the Pacific ocean. The rood will 
 cross the Rockies by easy grades. The 
 summit of the Peace River pass, has an 
 altitude about 1,800 feet above the aea. 
 The construction of the mountain section, 
 as It is termed, will be found to be much 
 less expensive and much less dlfBcult 
 probably than Is now anticipated. This 
 western terminus will place the port that 
 Is Its terminus much nearer to Asiatic ports 
 In north China and Japan than any other 
 
 length of the road Is somewhat greater 
 than to Vancouver, the distance by the 
 ocean to the ports named Is very much 
 
 ;A1'..?'"l '**. *'"'' ™"*e will have Im- 
 portant advantages In the overland and ori- 
 ental trade over any other line. It will reach 
 
 ?,H^Ht!'*??' ^"^'^ ?™^*'' ^^ a direct line, 
 and In this respect will be superior to any 
 other possible route from the west to that 
 
 «#^;.,. " ^1}} °P^" "P *•>« sreat clay belt 
 of this northern region, a clay belt that Is 
 supposed to contain sixteen million acres of 
 arable land row lying unoccupied, not pos- 
 sible of being occupied, because It has no 
 means of communication with the outer 
 world. It will open up that clay belt, and It 
 will open up all the timber resources, all 
 the agricultural resources, and all the min- 
 eral resources of that great stretch of coun- 
 
 Wiiinl'^ *" '^"^*'' '™" Quebec to 
 
 Xow, with regard to the route of this 
 road, there were two propositions. The 
 one proposition was to carry the road north 
 ?u Lake Winnipeg. That was the route 
 that would have been adopted by the Trans- 
 Canada line. A good friend of mine «n this 
 House, whom I very highly esteem, thought 
 that this line ought to have been adopted 
 because It was 500 miles shorter than the 
 other. Well, If there had been that differ- 
 ence in the distance It would have been a 
 strong argument In favour of adopting that 
 as the nearest route. To find the distances— I 
 but of course they are only approximative— I 
 I have calculated them by the map. I con- 
 verted the geographical miles Into statute 
 miles, and made some allowance for devla- 
 tion from the direct line In estimating the ■ 
 length, and the distances I obtained are as ' 
 h^i°r^ iir?^ }^^ Winnipeg route, from Que- ' 
 bee to Wlnnlpesr. 1.380 miles; Winnipeg to 
 Port Sinjpson, 1,650 miles; total. 3.030 miles. 
 By the Nelson route, Quebec to River Nel- 
 son, 1,466 statute miles; from Nelson river 
 to Port Simpson, 1.400 statute miles; total 
 Jl?*".,!;?®^*^ *" ^°^ Simpson, 2.956 miles. 
 The difference of distance In favour of the 
 northern route, north of Lake Winnipeg is 
 
 75 miles. Now. I was surprised at thla 
 result myself. The two lines at their fur- 
 thest points of divergence are three and 
 a half degrees apart. But when you come 
 to lay out. as I did, a sketch to ascertain the 
 difference between the length of the hy- 
 pothenuse and that of the base and the per- 
 pendicular of a triangle. It Is less than one 
 would naturally suppose. For Instance, you 
 lay out a line with a perpendicular of 400 
 miles and a base of 800 miles, and the hyno- 
 thenuse Is but a trifle more than one-fourth 
 more than the length of the perpendicular 
 line. So that showed this calculation was 
 substantially correct. 
 
 Now. there Is a reason why the WlnnlDes 
 route Is preferable to the other. If there 
 had been no such reason, the government 
 ^iMld naturally have chosen the shorter 
 line, even though the advantage to be gained 
 was only 75 miles. But the Nelson route bat 
 less agricultural land upon It than the 
 other. The distance Is greater from Quebec 
 to the River Nelson than It Is from Quebec 
 to Winnipeg, by about 70 miles. Then the 
 unproductive country extends from the Nel- 
 son river west a long distance; while from 
 Winnipeg, the productive country extends 
 at least to the Peace River pass, and that 
 Is the reason for putting the road upon that 
 line. Another reason Is that at Quebec the 
 road touches a point where all the business 
 of the North-west converges, a great entre- 
 RPL'^J.*.'"^ ^"** country west and north-west 
 of It It Is so to-day. It will probably contlnns 
 to be so. and a road reaching that point la 
 In a position to compete for the business 
 furnished by all these roads ramifying 
 through the North-west In every dlrecUon, 
 while If It had gone by the Nelson route 
 it would have reached none of them, and 
 could have co.upeted for none of this busi- 
 ness. For these reasons the choice of line 
 by way of Winnipeg was a Judicious choice. 
 I wish next, having dealt with physical 
 aspects of this road, to call attention to Its 
 business prospects. We have dealt with 
 the national question, with the necessity 
 from a national standpoint of having a 
 great transcontinental road upon our own 
 soil, and it has been asserted by the hon. 
 ex-MInlster of Railways and Canals and by 
 others, that, leaving out this view of the 
 case, this road has nothing to commend It 
 to us from a commercial standpoint. Well, 
 Sir, the business prospects of this road are, 
 first, that it will furnish an outlet to the 
 North Saskatchewan valley, an enormous 
 extent of country and a fertile and rich 
 region of the Canadian North-west. It will 
 furnish an outlet to the Athabasca valley by 
 means of the navigation of the river bringing 
 Its produces down to the point where the road 
 crosses and up the river to that point. It 
 will furnish an outlet to the Peace river 
 valley. These regions are to be peopled 
 In the near future by millions of people, 
 these regions are to be the heart of the ' 
 productive region of the Canadian North- 
 
18 
 
 WMt, these region* are to fnrnlsb an untold 
 amount of bueineBa— bnsineas tbat tbia one 
 Una will be incapable of performing, and 
 tbe building of tbia road, aa the bon. ex- 
 Minister of Railways and Canala rery pro- 
 perly said at Vancouver, tbrougb tbia new 
 and wildernesa country la an act of states- 
 manship, of good policy, and it will open 
 tbia region to settlement. When this road 
 baa been built to Fort Dunvegan on tbe 
 Peace river, the natural corollary la to ex- 
 tend tbe Hue from that point to Dawson 
 City, in the Yuiton. The line would be per- 
 bapa a thousand miles long. I have not 
 measured tbe exact distance ; it may be 
 something less than tbat. It would cross 
 tbe Hay river, it would follow tbe Liard 
 river and traverse those fertile regions. 
 Not 800 miles of tbe length of that road 
 to Dawson would pass through a country 
 incapable of settlement and cultivation, and 
 if we had thi« road to Dawson we would 
 have done awuy with this question of the 
 bonding privilege from Skagway over the 
 White Pass. We would have done away 
 with this question of the trouble about tbe 
 ▲laakan boundary so far as reaching tbe 
 Yukon from the Pacific Is concerned. We 
 would have reached through a direct route 
 the very heart of that region, we would 
 have its entire trade and we could aCtord 
 to place little store upon the Alaskan 
 boundary question when that point was 
 reached. Tbe road will open up, in addition, 
 the regions I have named, to Northern 
 British Columbia. Recent discoveries have 
 been made upon the Skeena river of en- 
 ormous deposits of coal, of hundreds of 
 millions of tons of coal of superior quality. 
 We are Just scratching the surface of the 
 country, we are Just learning about its en- 
 ormous resources. It is a country rich in 
 minerals, rich In coal, rich in iron, rich in 
 precious metals awaiting development, to 
 be penetrated by a railway and to blossom 
 into commercial life. The road will build 
 up a great city at Port Simpson, a city 
 that will command an enormous trade with 
 the Orient, a city that will command, 
 when the Panama canal Is completed, 
 an enormous trade with Europe In grain. 
 Grain from the Peace river valley, when 
 the Panama canal is constructed, can 
 be taken to Simpson by this road, can be 
 shipped to Liverpool from Simpson and 
 shipped at rates that will set at rest the 
 transportation question for tbat rich coun- 
 try by affording them cheaper rates than 
 can be obtained elsewhere. It will afford 
 an outlet for the grain trade and for the 
 flour trade which is sure to be developed 
 from that great western country with 
 Cbina and Japan. This road will have a 
 greet lumber trade. That will be another 
 Item in its business prospects. It will have 
 a lumber trade from the forests of British 
 Columbia to the prairies of tbe West. It will 
 have a lumber trade from the forests of 
 tbe hinterland of Ontario and Quebec, which 
 
 will be traversed for a length of 1,800 miles 
 by this road. Wherever the road crosses • 
 stream every tree standing upon that stream 
 above the lino of the railway will be tri- 
 butary to the railway, and lumber from this 
 section of the country, as I pointed out last 
 night, can be transported to the prairiea aa 
 cheaply as lumber is now transported from 
 Vancouver, where there are two mountain 
 ranges to climb, offering grades of from 
 120 feet to 200 feet to tbe mile. Thia road, 
 when it is completed, will be called upon in 
 all human probability to handle 100 million 
 bushels of grain annually by its line west of 
 Winnipeg. As I have said, it will be the 
 exclusive outlet of the clay belt. By Us 
 branch down the Nottawo river, with a good 
 harbour on James bay it will command the 
 Imslness of that great mare clausum of 
 Canada, the Iludsons bay. thousands of 
 square miles larger than the German ocean, 
 a sea with untold resources in fish, with 
 enormous resources in minerals upon Its 
 sliores, and near whose shore Philadelphia 
 companies have been locating iron mines for 
 the last two years, and I would counsel 
 the hon. Minister of the Interior (Hon. Mr. 
 Sifton) to look closely Into this queiitlon 
 and see that these people do not obtain en- 
 ormousiv valuable properties at a mere 
 fraction' of their value. This road would 
 command the business of this great Inland 
 sea, with Its valuable fisheries, and it would 
 command the trade in minerals that are tri- 
 butary to it and the Nottawa branch. It will 
 bring back to Quebec— and I am sure this will 
 interest you, Mr. Speaker— Its palmy days. 
 Once that was the seat of an empire In 
 embryo. Its adventurous explorers reach- 
 ed the far west, planted fortifications and 
 military and trading posts. In the rear of the 
 English colonists, at Fort Duquesne, near 
 Pittsburg, at Fort Kaskaskia, opposite St. 
 Louis, at Mackinaw and various other points 
 in the country, and projected an empire that 
 was to be tributary to France, but by the 
 struggle on the plains of Abraham that 
 dream of empire was shattered. But, with 
 this road Quebec will reach out to the future 
 again, Quebec will reach out to the com- 
 merce of this vast region with Its untold 
 resources, and it will command the trade 
 of that sea and become a queenly city. 
 
 This project will practically straighten the 
 Intercolonial Railway. I have dwelt upon 
 that subject already— a necessary step to 
 i be taken if we are to furnish the maritime 
 1 ports in the winter with shipments of grain. 
 ! I poluted out last night that vast ex- 
 i pendltures that have been undertaken by 
 all the principal American lines in better- 
 ments of their roads, In reduction of grades, 
 in improvement of alignment, in laying 
 with heavier rails, and in giving better 
 equipment. These vast expenditures were 
 absolutely necessary. The roads could not 
 perform the functions that they were de- 
 signed to do and desired to do without 
 these expenditures. If one road made these 
 
 v'V 
 
10 
 
 r 
 
 >^ i> 
 
 expendltnrei •Ttry rlrnl road bad to fol- 
 low suit, and tb« rnult ii that the capacity 
 
 -;J°!ff. '■****'■- •"*• '^*° quadnipled by tbe 
 expenditure of money made In the way I 
 have mentioned. The same necessity rest! 
 upon us In regard to the Intercolonial Rail- 
 It. f".* . \"'^ **""* "J^" n ^ronK route. 
 an«l It la not tlrst-clasa In tbe matter of Its 
 grades. The straightening of the road, and 
 the Improvement of Its grades will vastly 
 ^crease Its efficiency and will render It 
 possible to give to tbe maritime porta a 
 trade which without this improvement of 
 J«%u°.*'/?"'^ °?* ^ secured If we seek 
 to divert trade to the maritime provinces 
 we must have the beat tools, the best ap- 
 pliances. We cannot do It with an antlquat- 
 fd system and with an Inferior ami second- 
 class road. This road will develop aTex- 
 tens ve and valuable section of the coun- 
 try In Quebec ond Xew Brunswick 
 
 Another consideration, and a consideration 
 of no mean Importance. Is. that It will re- 
 move the dread of the abrogation of the 
 bonding privilege. The ex-MInlster of Rail! 
 t\aj8 and Canals scouted the Idea that there 
 was any danger of such a thing being done 
 He told us: The Americans will never 
 
 sult to their own disadvantage; never 
 t^^rtp'th^l"" °' depriving themselves of he 
 Welf «j.r* t"T *'°T'.*° ^''«""" «^" seaports. 
 Ztl' .f^' } *'*i °°* "no^- The Americans 
 have threatened to do this. Their President 
 
 t^.^IZ^^"'^^ '" •>'« '>»"ds a few yeS 
 ^f?J ° ".**^ ^^^ °^" proclamation without 
 lrii.tT *"* ,'i.°"8'-Ps*". without being gov- 
 
 wni t^^""*'^*} "« ^-^^^Pt »>'« ow" supreme 
 will m the matter. It Is a dangerous posN 
 tlon for us to be In. We have had frlcUon 
 In our relations with the United slates 
 They are pleasant and agreeable now be- 
 
 «n^m ^'^ ?,'*^*1^ «P°"«^ ^^'"'J' "nd we stand 
 spoiling all right. But the da- nv come 
 Sir. when friction may ex' Ou; 
 
 trade relations have got to usted • 
 
 we must have from the Unlti .. , eS fairer 
 ;-"!l®/i"^'"°"s «r we must apply to the 
 Un ted States the treatment that they ap^y 
 
 u «M ,", 7^ ^^} '""■" ^'•"^e conditions It 
 18 all right, and there will be very little 
 
 nHvff °' fi** abrogation of the bonding 
 S^ J -^^T • " .'^^ ^^^" "^ tl^e other line of 
 Si' ^^""'^ not guarantee that there 
 t^rthn?!*** "■''^'!°,°' I ^0"><J not gnarant- 
 in^ whiwK''®*'^°" ** °°* *»« ♦«•'' of abrogat- 
 T £7ii* tbe Americans call a privilege, and 
 I would not be surprised If It were abrogat- 
 ^; nl°« n any event, self respect, care for 
 our own Interests, respect for our standing 
 as a country. Imperatively demand that If 
 we can place ourselves in a position where 
 
 heads. It Is our duty to do so. and the con- 
 
 wni'do?t.°' *^* ^™°^ ^""""^ ^"<^'^* "°« 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear 
 Mr CHARLTON. I wish now, Mr Snea- 
 ker, to enter upon a consideration of the 
 
 niinnclal basis of this scheme. We bav* 
 Wl'imiZT" ^"•'•'"•^'on from Moucton to 
 ^Mnnpeg. From Moncton to Chaudlftni 
 •'"'"it "" according to the best data th^t S^ 
 K! obtained, would be a dlstnnce by the new 
 
 i T. V™.r"*'V»'* "J^ the presint nw 
 It Is 488 miles. The savluir in thi. Aimtm«!Z 
 
 would be 110 miles. EsZj^es'haJJ'S^^ 
 Ti.^",," '"'■'?» "' distance of from 120 
 m.iltP ™"?' ""'' * ^""^ this estimate of llo 
 .^.n«n„nn""*^' "• ''«'ng n moderate aid 
 
 oj S80 mir'"'!* " «"*tance by air line 
 or ^.jno miles. I odd to the air line dla- 
 
 S ^?'-r*'r''"li.""'' ""Kl't deviations golS 
 nlni„"'/f ''^ ^^'P'K°" ""'' »o forth, an in- 
 crease .,f four per cent, wblch I believe !■ 
 sufliclent, and this would make the iln. 
 tlTul'^f^' to Moncton 1.435 ml es. a?d 
 mnJ \^™"/y°"'''°" to Winnipeg 1,8a 
 mifP- i-^*"T' '"f^ "*' nPProxIniate et^ 
 mint J .".'■'■"'* "* l''^" *'y ^"*'"' measure- 
 blr fr ,""* '"IT- ^^ "seertaming the nnml 
 bor of gpogrnphlcal miles, by turning these 
 
 imtTtTZ ""e?- "y taking (19 mile, and 
 rt?;/ .""V^ making that the width of eacb 
 decree Instead of 60 geographical m»e.. 
 m r; hl'^ T^ **/ *'''« '-823 mlles-nnd we 
 h/of. ,.« h"" '" "Z"'' ^''"t t»"» «^08t does not 
 Inclmie the equlpment-I estimate the cost 
 
 ?S, V'^!f ^'^^ ""«■« "t 130.000 a mile I 
 think that estlmnfo Is not too h^h • I 
 presume It Is ., oo high for that section 
 of the road, ft, ... Moncton to ChaudlS* 
 f»"«'on. but I believe It Is too high fw 
 
 ir ^*!;tt*''',°f J""^ *''™"Sh that level coun- 
 try most of the way from Quebec to Win- 
 nipeg. But we will allow 180,000 a mUe 
 as the cost of a road 1.823 miles In lenirth 
 or a total of $54,600,000. *^ 
 
 Then we guarantee the mountain section 
 ami we are to pay Interest upon that as 
 well as upon the line from Moncton to 
 Winnipeg. ^\e guarantee the mountain sec- 
 ton for not more than |30,000 per mile: 
 the gu.arantee to be three-fourths of the cost 
 of the line That I believe Is too high I 
 do not believe the line will cost WoroOO a 
 mile through the Peace River pass and 
 from th r point to Fort Simpson, and I estt 
 
 r^v>' ;„„'^"«'S,K?' *^"* mountain section 
 i ^.5i."^'- This would be a guarantee 
 of $13,500,000. The total cost of the rSad 
 and guarantee of the mountain section 
 w lilch rests upon the same basis as the cost 
 or the road so far as the payment of Interest 
 fo^nsT^rS?." 18 concerned, would amount 
 CO $os,iyo,000. If we pay upon that sum 
 three per cent Interest for seven years that 
 would amount to 114.319.000. Xow, I hare 
 no aoubt that the ealculaticii of $13,000,000 
 by my right hon. friend the Premier Is much 
 nearer correct. I believe I have allowed 
 sums In e.\cess of what would be the actual 
 cost of the mountain section and the actual 
 cost of that stretch of 1,435 miles from Que- 
 bec to Winnipeg, but on the basis of thlB 
 estimate we will pay $14,319,000. This win 
 be equivalent to a bonus. Now, It was te- 
 
so 
 
 prMmtAd by the ex-MlaUter of Batlwayi 
 aad CanaU. and no doubt It will b« repro- 
 SMtad agala, th* total coat of tba tattarn 
 •action repraaanta an actual incraaaa of 
 onr debt tbat the burdan that tba coun- 
 trr aaaumea la meaaurcd by tbia amount, 
 tbat tbat burden la $68,190,000. It la 
 notblnc of tbe kind. After tbe payment 
 •f 114.819,000 we lease tbU road to a 
 nomiBlble company, we leaae tbIa road 
 under guarantees and conditions bigbly ad- 
 rantageous to ourselves, we lease this road 
 witb a reversion of title and ownership In 
 80 years. We lease this rood upon condi- 
 tions tbat pay tbe Interest on this aum 
 year after year, and we hold ample security 
 for It. V^e hold the rolling stock, \rc hold 
 on the western division their own Invest- 
 ments In the road In addition to our guaran- 
 tee. All these we bold, and to assert tbat 
 tbls Is In addition to our debt, an Increase 
 of tbe burdena that rest upon the country la 
 abanrd. It Is n >t honest ; It Is not a truth- 
 ful honest prest station of tbe case. 
 
 Now, with regard to the western division 
 from Winnipeg to Port Simpson, 1,651 miles 
 In tbe air line, I estimate an Increase In 
 length of five per cent. Perhaps that la 
 somewhat too little, but It will make the 
 line In statute miles 1.733 miles. The gov- 
 ernment guarantees tbe mountain section. 
 I assume that that mountain section will 
 not exceed 450 miles In length. I do not 
 believe that road will cost $40,000 a mUe 
 judging bv the character of the country, but 
 tbe guarantee at $30,000 a mile amounts to 
 $18,500,000. Then there will remain 1,283 
 miles upon which the guarantee will be 
 $13,000 a mile. The ex-Mlnister of Railways 
 and Canals assumed that the road would 
 cost tbe sum that this guarantee represents 
 only. It Is estimated that the road will 
 cost between $17,000 and $18,000 a mile on 
 the r'alr'** section, and the government guar- 
 antee upon that will be $13,000 a mile. 
 The mountain section wl'' cost $40,000 per 
 mile, and the government guarantee on that 
 portion will be $30,000 per mile. This 
 amounts to a guarantee of $13,500,000 for 
 tbe mountain section and $16,679,000 for the 
 prairie section, a total of $30,179,000 of gov- 
 ernment guarantee applied to the entire 
 line from Winnipeg to Port Simpson. If 
 this estimate of cost Is correct, the com- 
 pany's expenditure on this portion of the 
 road will be $10,059,000, in addition to which 
 they have to put on it $15,000,000 worth of 
 rolling stock. So that the expenditure by 
 the Grand Trunk Pacific of one-fourth the 
 cost, and $15,000,000 on rolling stock, in ad- 
 dition to the guarantee hy the govern- 
 ment, will represent a value of $55,238,000 
 which we will hold as absolute security for 
 our guarantee of $30,179,000. Is there any- 
 thing reckless or prodigal or unbusinesslike 
 in this arrangement ? Why. the more I 
 consider this agreement, the more I analyze 
 Its conditions, the better satisfied I am with 
 the bargain. I would suggest that my hon. 
 
 friends opposita alao maka a earafol atody 
 of it, and at* If that will not >>rtnfj*«« 
 to tha aama conelnaien. The Grand Tmnk 
 Paelfle leaaas tbia road from Moncton to 
 Winnipeg for fifty yaar^ and ptOTldea equip- 
 ment for ttala eaatem dirlalov to the Talno 
 of IB.000,000. We hold tbe road, tha equip- 
 ment, and whateTer battermanta the com- 
 pany may place upon it aa aecurlty under 
 the lease ; and at tbe expiration of fifty 
 years tha road cornea back to ns. 
 
 Now, Mr. Speaker, thia la a bargain tbat 
 could have been ntade. with any proapect 
 of Ita being carried out, in no other way 
 and with no other company In Canada than 
 the one with which It has been made. No 
 private company could take thIa agreement 
 just as It standa to-day and finance tbIa 
 undertaking. No privote company could 
 raise on Its second mortgage bonds tbe bal- 
 ance of the cost of the prairie section, over 
 tbe amount guaranteed by the government. 
 No private company lould provide this road 
 with $20,000,000 or rolling stock. It requlr- 
 ed the credit of the Grand Trunk Company 
 of Canada, stondlng behind the Grand 
 Trunk Pacific, to consummate this bargain. 
 IK conld have been done. In no other way. 
 We have the eiitlre strength, resources and 
 character of the Grand Trunk Company of 
 Canada behind the Grand Tnink Pacific ; 
 the two are united together— a fortunate 
 concur'-ence of circumstances, n rare oppor- 
 tunity which the government have had the 
 wisdom to seize upon ; and by seizing upon 
 It they have secured the construction of a 
 transcontinental line upon terms that are, to 
 soy the least, surprisingly favourable. The 
 Grand Trunk Company has greater resourcea 
 and oppUances than, any other company In 
 Canada— perhaps greater than any other 
 companv In America. The Grand Trunk 
 Company Is associated with this new com- 
 pany, is In partnership with It, Is Interested 
 Ir its success, and will carry It to a success- 
 ful conclusion. 
 
 As I said before, the road reverts to the 
 '' government at the expiration of fifty years. 
 ! What will It probably be worth then ? How 
 many people will be In Canada fifty years 
 i from now ? What amount of business will 
 be done by this road then ? There is a very 
 carefully drawn provision here with regard 
 to betterments and the keeping of the road 
 up to n certain standard. The government 
 1 have a right to compel this company to keep 
 ' the road up to the highest standard that ex- 
 I Ists at any time. If Improvements are made 
 ' In railways, this road must be made to 
 correspond with the character of those Im- 
 provements. The keeping up of the road 
 Is an absolute condition of the contract. 
 When this road reverts to the government 
 at the expiration of fifty years. Is It nn ex- 
 travagant cclculatlon to suppose that it will 
 be worth twice its original cost to the gor- 
 ernment ? It Is not. There Is something 
 marvellous about tbe Increased value of 
 railroads. Take the New York Central. It 
 
 C] 
 
•mitktmtm 
 
 SI 
 
 
 f*Il Into tb« bands of Corn«Uai Vanderbllt 
 about the year 1800. Tbat road'a ttock waa 
 watered, and wattrod, and watered again, 
 natll erery dollar of tbat atoek to-day repre- 
 sent! a cost of 2S cents ; and yet tbe great 
 TOlome of watered stock goes oii paying divi- 
 dends of 8 per cent per annum, due simply 
 to Increased value from increase of business. 
 Tbe same conditions apply to nil tbe prin- 
 cipal railroads. They will apply to this rood. 
 Tbis road will Inevitabi/ increase in value. 
 I tbink It is a rery moderate calculation 
 to suppose tbat tbIs road, at the tlino it re- 
 verts to the government, will bo worth twice 
 Its original cost. The agrpement provides 
 tbnt If the government do not then choose 
 to assume the road and run It thcmsplveB. 
 the Qrand Trunk Pacific Company shall 
 have tbe right to lease It If It offers as good 
 conditions as the government can .<iecnro 
 elsewhere. Well, do you suppose that tbat 
 road will be leased it second time at 3 per 
 cent on its original cost— a road that will 
 be worth twice what It cost T I« It un- 
 reasonable to suppose that tbe road will tben 
 liecome a great source of revenue to the gov- 
 ernment ? It is a moderate calculation to 
 suppose that while the government will con- 
 tinue to carry its bonds at 3 per cent, the 
 company on the secop*' lease will pay at 
 least per cent on the uriglnal cost. I do 
 not know hut that is a better arrnngemcnt 
 li.an to rnsh Into a schep— of Rovcrnment 
 construction of railroads, ^.t all events, It 
 Is an arrangement which will certalnlv en- 
 able the government to establish an efficient 
 railroad from ocean to ocean, and leave 
 that road under the absolnte control of the 
 government In every essential respect. 
 
 Now, I wish to refer to the matter of the 
 management and practical basis of this 
 scheme. The Canadian Pacific Railway 
 distance from Montreal to Wlaiaipeg, is 
 1,424 miles. The length of the Grand Trunk 
 Pacific from Quebec to Winnipeg, if my cal- 
 culations are correct, will be 1,435 miles, 
 eleven miles longer from Quebec to Win- 
 nipeg than the distance on the Cnna- 
 dlan Pacific Railway from Montreal to Win- 
 nipeg ; and I doubt if, when the surveys are 
 made, the difference will be as much in 
 favour of the Canadian Pacific Railway. 
 The length of the entire road is considerably 
 greater than that of the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, but that increased length Is all but 
 eleven miles of it west of Winnipeg, and it 
 Is a consideration that does not matter much, 
 for every mile of it is developing a rich 
 country, which -will afford business to the 
 line. 
 
 The government retains running powers 
 on the road, or tbe right to give running 
 powers over the entire line— over the line 
 from Winnipeg to Moncton, and over the 
 line from Winnipeg to Port Simpson or to 
 Bute Inlet, whichever may be the terminus. 
 Tbe eastern division, from Winnipeg, Is 
 made a great artery as an outlet from the 
 west, connecting with every road which 
 
 comes from tbe west Into Winnipeg ; aad« 
 if It carries grain as cheaply to Quebec n 
 It can be carried to Boston or Portland, It 
 will divert to Quebec and tbe marltiiDe 
 ports all the traffic it can possibly haadl'- 
 Was there any wisdom In the goven>»<"-* 
 retaining this right, and making tbt^ 
 visions for Joint use and Joint running 
 ers ? Certainly there was. and the . M- 
 tlon is, can this right be secured on reason- 
 able terms for other companies ? I answer, 
 beyond question it can. 
 
 Tbe criticisms made hy my hon. friend 
 the ex-MInister of Railways and Canals with 
 regard to this matter b'trtiyed an utter Igno- 
 rance on bis part of the conditions surround- 
 ing tbis question. As I said last night, 
 tbe gauges of the roads in the United Statet 
 have been made uniform for the purpose of 
 i exchange of freight and avoiding the break- 
 ; ing of bulk when one road connects with 
 ; -.nother. No bulk If. broken now. Cam 
 • from wlierc they were billed to their 
 I destination over une or two or a dozen 
 i roads, and arrangements are made for the 
 division of frciglit on tbe basis of mileage. 
 \nd If a railway does not return the cars 
 t lm« borrowed promptly. It must pay a 
 ceitiiln rate per day for the use of those 
 cars. Tlio wliole business is carefully 
 systematized; and even where there Is no 
 special arrangement. If one road runs its 
 cars over anotiier, there is no trouble In 
 aseertaining what it should pay. Traffic 
 is carefully exchanged and tbe flux and 
 flow of business goes on from oceau to 
 ocean over all railway lines on a well 
 recognized system. If the Nortlie-. "Cen- 
 tral or tlio Canadian Pacific Rr H'. ,),i »-,i 
 any other line wishes to send its eai* 
 through to Quebec to be haul* • J.j thi 
 Grand Trunk Pacific RoIIway, it 1^ ihe p;;u- 
 plcst thing In the world to make ; rti •••'or 
 of the freight; and If there sbo» il - c ,y 
 disagreement, tbe government ca ^u.-o hi 
 as an arbitrator and decide the d •' ite un 
 a fair and equitable basis. But ; :ii?:»«» 
 roads desire to make use of this line •.ii- 
 tically as part of their own Hues, ivi • 
 will be no diflScuity. We know that by 
 practice already. I pass over a road almost 
 every week which is used by two lines a 
 distance of 220 miles. There is one divi- 
 sion from St. Thomas to Detroit 110 miles 
 and another division from St. Thomas to 
 BufTaio 119 miles long. Each of the lines 
 which uses tliis road has Its own round- 
 houses. Its own appliances, its own engines, 
 and runs Its own trains, and there is no 
 friction between them. Their system of 
 train despatching is arranged in the easiest 
 manner. Passenger trains take precedence 
 over freight tralr-s, and stock freight takes 
 precedence of ori.nary freight. Tbe whole 
 business Is conducted with the utmost sys- 
 tem and works with the utmost regnlarl^ 
 and without friction. If yon can run a road 
 where there are two divisions, you can run 
 a road where there are three or fonr or a 
 

 22 
 
 doien divisions. The same system applies 
 t^iany as it does to a few. The running 
 of pullman cars and passenger cars is re- 
 duced to a svstem on all roads. A pullman 
 mtarts from New York or Boston and goes 
 to San Francisco, and it makes no difference 
 whether It goes over two roads or uaii a 
 d<»en The system is perfectly adjusted 
 tb the satisfaction of all the roads, and 
 evervthlng goes on smoothly. The same 
 system can be Introduced here and it Is ab- 
 surd to say that It- cannot. Wc have this 
 further assurance in our own case, that 
 while m the United States all these mat- 
 ters are subject to mutual nfrnngement. so 
 that any road may defeat the '^•ork'n^"'"'^ 
 system by being too grasping or exacting, 
 here we will have an umpire the govern- 
 ment Itself, which can compel the faithful 
 ^nd equitable carrying out of the provision 
 laid down in section 24. 
 
 This company as an assurance of good 
 faith, deposits the sum of ?-'.<»0,000 jMth 
 ihe government, and that money is to re- 
 main in the hands of the government until 
 The'cimjany has '"'^'1^'^ l\s ol,llgrmons^ 
 But if the company are within .1!.i.0()tt,uw 
 or $4,000,000 of the completion of the work, 
 then the government may allow the com- 
 pany to use the $5,000,000 deposit to com- 
 plete the work. But the government hoi s 
 thU $5000.000 in ' ard cash or convertible 
 BecuiiUes In addition to all these other con- 
 dUions The governm^it controls the rates 
 Tm. rind Ld it has the right to audit 
 the accounts at any time. At any ume 
 It mav send its accountant to see whe- 
 ther the accounts of the company are proper- 
 ly kept, whother there is any stuffing of ac- 
 ^unts and pay-rolls. It can ascertain ex- 
 S^hat the road Is doing, what ts earn- 
 ing are what its dividends should he, whe- 
 K its' r'fes can bo -duced without n- 
 lustice with the company. Contiast luai 
 witKhr Canadian Pacific Railway, which 
 we cannot interfere with at all until Its 
 dividends are 10 per cpnt. Then this com - 
 
 Cffli''R?i??.v^rno ."" Thfs ^co^inSnf S 
 
 Sher ?andg 'ants nor cash subsidy unless 
 
 vmi can call Hie seven years interest on the 
 
 JSSran?ee 'he cost of the mountain sec- 
 
 tlon a subs. .-. Contrast this ^i"' the nrst 
 
 Proposal of the Grand Trunk Pacific Rall- 
 
 waritself That company came down to 
 
 tTe- government with a proposition to build 
 
 n line from North Bay. It wanted a subsidy 
 
 °of"$6.SS and .5.000 acres of laM a mile 
 
 ennivalent in value to at least ^l.j.uuu. i-^on 
 
 ?rast the present bargain with that demand 
 
 I believl thTt the government have pressed 
 
 Jhe Grand Trunk Railway to the last point 
 
 I believe Mr. Hay was ready to throw up 
 
 She sponge, if one single eoncesslon further 
 
 hiid been demanded. I am, I tuinu, m a 
 
 DSsltlon to know that the government got 
 
 ^hfvery last concession possible from the 
 
 manageis of the Grand Trunk Paciflc 
 
 BaUwav; and that it has got a good bar- 
 
 gain the future will prove, whether it be 
 
 admitted now or not. 
 
 I give great credit to the government 
 for having refused the land grant and still 
 Kreatrr credit for having made that its uni- 
 form policy. The government deserves 
 well of the country to a greater degree per- 
 haps In this respect than in any other. 
 Contrast tlils with the policy of the late 
 government. That government made land 
 erants to railways to the amount of 57,- 
 087.000 acres-an empire tlirown away reck- 
 lesslv. It threw away our heritage reck- 
 le-s^ilV. with no apparent idea of the 
 ultimate value of that land. It gave away 
 our lands as freely as you would stones 
 from a brook, and of this amount of .>7,- 
 087 000 acres. 29.080.000 have been earned 
 and have passed out of the hands of the 
 countrv. Messrs. Mackenzie .\: Mann have 
 been able to make a ?12,000,000 sale of land, 
 I understand. 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGGART. Does that Include 
 the Yukon River Railway ? 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. No. The railway is 
 soinewhat south of the Yukon. Our hon 
 friends opposite may claim a the credit 
 thev can extract from that policy. It has 
 S. a most wasteful one a"dl trust tha 
 the Liberal government will add the biil- 
 lancv of IS record in this respect by cou- 
 t^^ulng to enforce the old principle, which 
 we advocated wheu we were in opposition 
 ^f the land for the settler and the settler 
 
 %?th^«!gard to the question of sub- 
 sidies I do not know that I would take 
 the position taken by many persons In 
 Ontario. Subsidies, reasonably granted, are 
 T nroner thing. Railroads may be subsi- 
 dized ^and their construction secured ha 
 could not otherwise be had, railroads that 
 would be of great benefit to the country. 
 Ind here again with regard to their system 
 of subsidizing railroads, the government has 
 adopted a principle which redounds grealy 
 to their credit. They have adopted the prln- 
 cVle that a railroad which is suljsldlzed 
 must carry the malls free, and, I believe 
 Uiev must provide a mall car and a mall 
 clerk-the Postmaster General xill correct 
 me If I am wrong-they must carry military 
 forces free. In fact, they must perform all 
 government services free to the extent of 
 three per cent Interest upon the amoiint of 
 subsldv granted. Under these conditions 
 and with these provisions, I believe that 
 subsidies granted within the limit of reasou, 
 granted to meritorious enterprises and In 
 moderate amount may be reasonably giant- 
 ™d n'""thstandlng the outcry that has been 
 raised. 
 
 
 \ 
 
 iA 
 
 Mr. MONK. Are there any of these con- 
 ditions In this contract ? 
 
 Mr CHARLTON. There is no subsidy In 
 this contract. Now, Sir, I desire to refer to 
 the wise provisions in the public Interest 
 
23 
 
 contained in this agreement. Great care lins 
 been taken In thlg respect. We have not 
 a Minister of Railways and Canals with 
 carte blanche in the construction of a trans- 
 continental line. This would be a very 
 pleasant position, no doubt, fi»r a public 
 official to occupy ; but in the construction 
 of the eastern section, we have a joint 
 supervision provided for on the part of the 
 company and on the part of the government. 
 The company is interested in having the 
 road constructed as cheaply as possible, as 
 it has to pay three per cent interest on the 
 cost. It has Joint supervision with the 
 government in the letting of contracts and 
 the construction of the line. This provision 
 will secure— perhaps such a provision would 
 be unnecessary with a government like 
 this— economy of construction to tlie utmost 
 attainable extent. Then, we have a pro- 
 vision in the public interest that the stan- 
 dard of the road, west of Winnipeg shall 
 be equal to the standard of the Grand 
 Trunk between Toronto and Montreal. That 
 is a much higher standard than that of any 
 road that the west now possess. 
 An hon. MEMBER. Xo. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTOX. Yes. The Mackenzie 
 & Mann road is laid with GO pound rails. 
 The Grand Trunk between Toronto and 
 Montreal is laid with 80 pound rails, and in 
 some sections 90 pound rails. It is a first- 
 class road, with the best bridges and with 
 low grades. And, if this provision in the 
 contract is complied with and the Grand 
 Trunk builds a road in the west that shall 
 not be Inferior to the Grand Trunk between 
 Montreal and Toronto, it will build a road 
 thirty or forty per cent better than any 
 road now in that western country. Compare 
 these conditions with those that were im- 
 posed on the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 when it was built. That company was un- 
 der obligatiiju to build a road equal to tlie 
 standard of the Union Pacific when it was 
 first con-structed- a road whose rails were 
 laid on Cottonwood ties two feet apart, bal- 
 lasted with frozen dirt In the winter, and 
 with grades as high as 90, or even 100 feet 
 to the mile. There are other important con- 
 ditions in this contract. We have a pro- 
 vision in section IG that the government 
 may improve the eastern section. So, If 
 this road is not kept in condition to answer 
 the purposes of tlie government, in a con- 
 dition to secure the trade for the maritime 
 ports and Quebec, the government may step 
 In and put the road In condition necessary 
 for this purpose, and charge the cost to the 
 company. 
 
 Hon. Mr. HAGGART. Xo, no. 
 
 Mr. CLAXCY. The Interest. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTOX. Yes, to the company. 
 It is capitalized at the cost of the company. 
 The government is adopting provisions with 
 regard to the eastern section, stringent pro- 
 Tislons, that insure against the deteriora- 
 
 tion of the line, that insure its maintenance 
 at the same standard of efficiency as the 
 rest of the road. Then there is the provi- 
 sion I have already referred to with regard 
 to the hauling rights, made in the Intereet 
 of the shipper of the west and of the whole 
 country, that will be vastly beneficial to 
 tlie transportation interest of Canada. The 
 government has a mortgage that covers the 
 road-bed and the rolling stock and is ample 
 security for all its advances by way of 
 guarantee. Then there is a clause providing 
 . for tlie purchase of Canadian material. My 
 'ion. friends on the other side may say that 
 , tills does not amount to anything, because 
 the company Is not obliged to purchase Can- 
 adian materials, unless it can get them ad- 
 vantageously as other materials. But I 
 think this clause secures to us an important 
 1 advantage. The time will come, and come 
 very soon, unless we get advantageous 
 1 trade conditions from the United States, 
 ! when we shall have duties high enough 
 I to assure the purchase of materials In Can- 
 j ada ; and this condition that the company 
 I shall purchase its materials In Canada will 
 I prove a great boon to the manufacturing In- 
 ! terest of this country. Then, the govern- 
 ment has control of rates, which I have al- 
 ready alluded to. It has provision for con- 
 tinuous and efficient operation of the road, 
 and it has that condition secured by a pro- 
 vision In the agreement which says that 
 when the lease is drawn the government 
 sliall have plenary powers and powers of 
 imposing penalties in the event of this con- 
 dition not being complied with. This agree- 
 ment provides that the rates on export trade 
 shall be no greater to Canadian ports than 
 to American ports. The road must absolu- 
 tely plp'-e Canadian seaports on the same 
 basis with regard to advantage as It places 
 i other sdaports. It was said last night that 
 that company could evade this provision 
 by sending its agents to the west to secure 
 freight routed to American ports. If it did 
 this, it would violate clause 43, which pro- 
 vides that there shall be no discrimination 
 on the part of a railway company In favour 
 of American routes. Then there is a con- 
 dition that the company shall provide ample 
 shipping accommodation at Port Simpson, 
 Quebec, Halifax, St. John or any other 
 ocean port that Its business reache's The 
 attempt was made last night to convey the 
 Impresslin that of the $45,000,000 of stock 
 which this company is to issue, $25,000,000 
 was to be treated In some way so that the 
 manipulators of this contract could put It 
 in their own pockets— confiscate It. Whv 
 the $20,000,000 of preferred stock Is to 
 secure $20,000,000 of rolling stock for th« 
 road That is the purpose to which It will 
 be devoted. The $25,000,000 of common 
 stock is to be laid aside and put upon the 
 market for the purpose of constructing ele- 
 vators and other shipping facilities nt the 
 end of the route that the government stlpo- 
 lates that It shall furnish and other socb 
 
24 
 
 pnrpogeB. So that we bare In this contract 
 ample security for all the stipulations that 
 the bgreement contains. 
 
 Now, to sum up the matter : Under this 
 arrangement we are about to secure a trans- 
 continental line. We have granted no land 
 for it. We pny Interest for seven years on 
 the cost of the eastern section, and upon 
 the guaranteed portion of the mountain 
 MCtlon not exceeding $14,500,000. And, at 
 the expiration of fifty years, when the value 
 of this property will be greatly enhanced. 
 It comes back Into our possession. That, 
 broadly speaking is the outline of this 
 arrangement. I wish to contrast this bar- 
 gain with the first bargain for a transconti- 
 nental road made In this country. I think 
 there will be food for reflection In this con- 
 trast; and while doing this, I wish distinctly 
 to disclaim that I have any reflections to 
 make upon the management of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway. I admire the courage, the 
 grasp, the energy, the push that character- 
 ised that movement from tlie outset. I criti- 
 cise, not the Canadian Pacific Railway syndi- 
 cate, but the government of the day. In 
 1886 I had a letter from the now Lord Mount 
 Stephen, complimenting me, thanking me, 
 for a speech I made in that year attacic- 
 Ing the policy of the government and show- 
 ing what vast franchises the Canadian Paci- 
 fic Railway Company had obtained, what 
 an enormous bargain they had from the 
 government. This letter complimented mo 
 for having tried to act justly, and I was 
 Informed that It had been used quite efti- 
 ciently In promoting the credit of the com- 
 pany. So I say now, that while I point out 
 the "recklessness of the government of that 
 day, I utterly disclaim any Intention of cast- 
 ing reflections upon the people that took the 
 government In. 
 
 When that contract was made with tiie 
 syndicate in 1881, it provided for the con- 
 struction of a line from Calender to Port 
 Moodv. Of that line, certain portions were 
 to be' built by the government. The Lake 
 Superior section from Lake Superior to 
 Selkirk, 405 miles in longtli; the western 
 section from Port Moody to Kamloops, up 
 through the canyons of the Thompson and 
 the Fraser, 238 miles In length, a total of 
 643 miles that the government was to build 
 and hand over free of cost or charge to the 
 svndicate. The balance of the road was to 
 be built by the syndicate. It was 1,906 miles 
 long. Now, whatever subsidies, whatever 
 grants of land, whatever gifts of completed 
 rallwav the syndicate received were ap- 
 plicable to the construction of that 1,906 miles 
 of road only. I^t us see what they got. 
 They got a cash bonus of $2.5,000,000; they 
 got the 043 miles of completed road which 
 cost, with the surveys. In round numbers, 
 $35,000,000; they got 25,000,000 acres of land, 
 worth at the least calculation $3 an acre, or 
 175,000,000. Their cash subsidy tlicrefore 
 for the 1.906 miles of road amounted to 
 113,100 a mile; their subsidy from the gift 
 
 from the government of 643 miles, which 
 had cost $35,000,000, amounted to $18,300 a 
 jille; their subsidy from the 2r),000,000 acres 
 of land, worth $75,000,000 as the outcome 
 proves, amounted to $38,800 a mile. So the 
 syndicate, for the construction of 1,906 miles, 
 the portion that was constructed by it be- 
 tween Calender and Port Moody, received 
 in cash, in road completed and handed over, 
 and In lands estimated to be worth $3 an 
 acre, a total subsidy of $09,700 a mile. Now. 
 I hope uiy hon. friends on the opposite 
 side will make a note of that. That was a 
 pretty reasonable subsidy— $13,100 a mile in 
 cash, $18,500 a mile in the value of the road 
 the government built for them, and handed 
 over, and $38,300 In land worth $3 an acre. 
 
 Mr. McCREAIlY. What about the taxes V 
 
 We will come to that 
 
 j Mr. CHARLTON. 
 
 j later on. 
 
 Mr. COWAN. Still there's more to fol- 
 low. 
 
 :Mr. CHARLTON. Now, compare that 
 ! wltli tills scheme that our friends are de- 
 ! nouncing to-day. Here is a scheme that 
 i will cost us, in interest In lieu of subsidy, 
 $14,500,000, or $4,060 per mile for the entire 
 ; line, against $09,700 per mile for 1,906 miles. 
 i lioes not the contrast startle my friends ? 
 ! And can they, in view of their own record, 
 ! rise in this House and condemn this moder- 
 I ate. judicious scheme, conceived In the inter- 
 ; est of the people, and to be carried forward 
 i to its consummation at such a slight cost ? 
 I Now, lot us have a summary of these 
 : subsidies : Cash bonus to the Canadian 
 ; Paollic Itailway on 1,906 miles, $2.5,000,000; 
 cost of road and surveys handed over to the 
 company, $35,000,000; total value of 25,000,- 
 000 acres of land— and I may say here that 
 part of that land was bought back at $1.50 
 an acre, $10,000,000 worth, but the average 
 of the whole may be computed at least at 
 $3 an acre— 2.5,000.000 acres of land at if3 
 an acre, would be worth $75,000,000; total 
 subsidies applicable to the 1,006 miles built by 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway, $135,000,000. 
 Contrast that with this scheme that is going 
 to 1)0 denounced as extravagant and reck- 
 less. Aid to the Grand Trunk Pacific by 
 wiiy of Interest, say $14,500,000; balance in 
 favour of the Canadian Pacific Railway, 
 $120,500,000. The statement seems incred- 
 ible, but it is a cold hard fact, and I thought 
 perliaps It would be well just to remind our 
 friends opposite of what they have done in 
 the past as an incentive to them to denounce 
 what we are doing In future, granting about 
 one-seventeenth as much to this line per m'.Ie 
 as the Canadian Pacific Railway received 
 from them. 
 At one o'clock, House took recess. 
 House resumed at three o'clock. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Mr. Speaker, at the 
 hour of recess I had just completed a com- 
 parative statement of the aids granted by 
 
 ' I. 
 
 f 
 
 i 
 
 (i 
 
26 
 
 
 the government to the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway Company and to the stiieme at 
 present under consideration. I had given 
 the value of the Investment of the govern- 
 ment In the roads that were handed over 
 to this company, the amount of the cash 
 bonus, and the value of land craiit of 25,- 
 000,000 acres. It may be argued In regard 
 to the land grant that Its value was created 
 by the construction of the road, and that 
 we are not entitled to count this as being 
 in the shape of a bonus In regard to the 
 aids rendered In this line. Leaving that 
 question aside, I may say in this connec- 
 tion, at least, that we grant no land bonus 
 to the present scheme and that the increase 
 in the value of the land consequent upon 
 the construction of the land will be ensured 
 to ourselves as a government and to the 
 country and not to a railway corporation. 
 I shall now enter into other conditions of 
 contrast between these two schemes as re- 
 lates to the government's position In the 
 respective cases, and the first one I will 
 refer to. Sir, will be the exemption of the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway from taxation 
 That exemption is contained in section lo 
 of the agreement of the company, and is 
 as follows : 
 
 The Canadian Paclflc Railway, and all stations 
 and station grounds, worltshops, buildings, 
 yards and other property, rolling stock and ap- 
 purtenances required and used for the construc- 
 tion and working thereof, and the capital stock 
 of tlie company, shall be for ever free from 
 taxation by the Dominicn, or by any province 
 hereafter to be established, or by any munici- 
 pal corporation therein. 
 
 That exemption, of course, is perpetual. 
 I need not point out that no such condition 
 applies to the Grand Trunls Pacific Rail- 
 way scheme. There is no exemption of its 
 property in this case, and whatever con- 
 ditions a railway corporation may be liable 
 to under the authority of the Dominion, 
 or of provinces that corporation will be liable 
 to. Then, the next provision that I would 
 refer to in this contrast of conditions is the 
 exemption of the land jrrant of the Can- 
 nadian Pacific Railway from taxation, which 
 exemption is also contained in section 10, 
 and is as follows : 
 
 And the lands of the company, In the North- 
 west Territories, until they are either sold or 
 occupied, shall also bo free from such taxation 
 for twenty years after the grant thereof from 
 the Crpwn. 
 
 These, lands were granted more than 
 20 years ago, no taxes have yet been paid, 
 and the lands still are practically exempt 
 from taxation. 
 
 The next condition and contrast that I 
 would refer to is the transportation monopoly 
 granted to the Canadian Paclflc Railway 
 covering the entire North-west Territories. 
 The clause granting that monopoly is No. 15 
 of the agreement or contract, and is as 
 follows : 
 
 For twenty years from the date hereof, no 
 line of railway shall bo authorised by the Do- 
 
 minion parliament to be conatruoted south cf 
 the Camidlan Paclflc Railway, from any polat 
 at or near the Oanadlan Paclflc Railway, except 
 luch line aa shall run south-weet or to the 
 westward and south-west ; nor to within flfte«n 
 miles of latitude 49. And In the ettablishineat 
 of any new province In the North-weet Ter- 
 ritories, provision shall be made for continuing 
 such prohibition after sucih establishment un- 
 til the exviratloo of the said period. 
 
 Here was a condition which gave the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway an absolute 
 monopoly of transportation in the entire 
 North-west Territories. No line was to be 
 built from the south of that road to within 
 15 miles of the American boundary line, 
 no connection with any American road wa« 
 possible under the provisions of this sec- 
 tion. The Canadian Pacific Railway, by 
 this provision of its agreement, enjoyed an 
 absolute transportation monoplply in the 
 North-west. Contrast that provision with 
 the provision of the Grand Trunk Pacific 
 Railway scheme and we find that no such 
 monopoly is given, that no special privileges 
 are given in regard to transportation, but 
 Hat this road has to enter into full and free 
 competition with all other lines without 
 any Intervention on the part of any gov- 
 ernment to aid it In any way in securing 
 business. . . 
 
 The next point of difference is In regard 
 to the a'^mlsslon of material for the con- 
 struction of the road contained In section 
 10 of this Act. By this provision it was 
 agreed that the government : 
 
 Shall also permit the admission free of duty, 
 of all steel rails, fish plates and other taatenings. 
 spikes, bolts and nuts, wire, timber and all 
 material for bridges, to be used in the original 
 construction of the railway, and of a telegraph 
 line in connection therewith, and all telegraph 
 apparatus required for the first equipment of 
 such telegraph line ; and will convey to the 
 company, at cost price, with Interest, all rails 
 and fastenings bought in or since tha year 1879, 
 and other materials for construction In the poi- 
 .<<ession of or purchased by the government, at 
 a valuation.— such rails, fastenings and mater- 
 ials not being required by it for the constmc- 
 tfon of the said Lake Superior and western sec- 
 tions. 
 
 Well, Sir, this exemption of material 
 from duty was held later on to apply to the 
 material used In the renewal of bridges 
 years and years after the Canadian Pacific 
 Railwav haJ Heen constructed. The Grand 
 Trunk 'Pacifl-.- has no such privileges, has 
 no such exemption from the payment of 
 duties ; it must pay duties upon all the 
 materials it imports. That is another con- 
 trast between the conditions applicable to 
 the roads. 
 
 Then the Canadian Pacific Railway was 
 required to put up a deposit by way or 
 security of $1,000,000. The Grand Trunk 
 Pcclflc" Is required to put up a deposit by 
 wav of security of $.5,000,000-flve times 
 as mnch ."^s th.nt required from the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway. 
 
26 
 
 Ttatn, the Oanadian Pacific Railway could 
 not b« tonched In reference to the adjust- 
 ment or handling of ita freight rates until 
 It was paying a dividend of 10 per cent. No 
 Interference on the part of the goyemment 
 could be made with the afFairs of the com- 
 pany until it was paying ai dividend of 10 
 per cent. That was provided In section 18 
 of this Act. The Orand Trunk Pacific Rail- 
 way is liable to the intervention of the gov- 
 ernment in the regulation of its rates at any 
 time at the pleasure and upon the Judgment 
 of the government without any reference to 
 the maximum rate of dividends it may be 
 earning. 
 
 Then, the Canadian Pacific Railway had 
 three-quarters of the cost of the rails that 
 it imported advanced by the government. 
 This provision Is contained in subsection 
 (c) of section 9 of this Act, and it is as 
 follows : 
 
 If at any time the company shall cause to ba 
 delivered on or near the Mne of the said rail- 
 way, at a place satisfactory to the government, 
 •teel rails and fastenings to be used in the con- 
 atrucUon of the railway, but In advance of tbe 
 requirements for such construction, the govern- 
 ment, on the requisition of the company, shall, 
 upon such terms and conditions as shall be de- 
 termined by the government, advance thereon 
 three-fourths of the value thereof at the place 
 of delivery. 
 
 There is no such condition in reference to 
 the Grand Trunk Pacific. All these con- 
 ditions were peculiar in their application to 
 the Ganadinn Pacific Railway— exemption 
 firom taxation, monopoly of transporta- 
 tion, exemption from duties, advances on 
 the cost of rails, all these are special con- 
 ditions granted to this company in addition 
 to the enormous subventions I have referred 
 to were peculiar to its case, and not ap- 
 plicable to the case of the Grand Trunk 
 Pacific. Then, we have another contrast 
 of the conditions between the two roads. 
 When the government bad paid this |25,- 
 000,000 in money, when it had handed over 
 roads costing $35,000,000, and when it had 
 given these 25,000,000 acres of land for the 
 purpose of aiding in the construction of 
 1,906 miles of road, the control of the gov- 
 ernment ceased. The road may at anyllme 
 pass beyond tbe control of the government 
 altogether. It may pass into the bands of 
 foreign owners. It may be gathered in by 
 a Morgan syndicate. There Is nothing to 
 ensure to this country the possession of the 
 road as a Canadian highway. It may be 
 secured by foreign companies at any time 
 and there is no guarantee to prevent such 
 a consummation. 8ucb is not the case with 
 the Grand Trunk Pacific. The control of 
 the government over the Grand Trunk 
 Pacific is continuous. The Grand Trunk 
 Pacific is bound to remain a Canadian road. 
 It can never be made anything else. It 
 must continue under Canadian control and 
 we ensure to ourselves the control of onf 
 transcontinental line at least, which is our 
 line, controlled by ounelves, and which can 
 
 never pass from our possesslov. Then, 
 the Canadian Pacific Railway gave no run* 
 ning rights to anybody over any portions 
 of its line— the Grand Trunk Pacific Rail- 
 way must share its line from ocean to ocean 
 at the dictation of the government, and 
 under the direction of the government with 
 other lines. 
 
 I repeat that in all this, no odium at- 
 taches to the Canadian Pacific Railway offi- 
 cials. They simply made the best bvarain 
 with the government they could. They 
 made a good bargain, they displayed their 
 astut pss in doing it. They have craated 
 a pi rty of enormous value; it is the 
 grauuest railway speculation that was ever 
 entered Into; It is the most brilliant of 
 successes In tbe railway history of tbe 
 world. The Canadian Pacific Railway mag- 
 nates, if I may term them so, the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway managers, were not to 
 blame; the odium, if any, attaches to tho 
 government that granted these condition! 
 and failed to safeguard the interests of tbe 
 people In granting them. 
 
 Of course, at the time the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway syndicate bargain went through, 
 th? conditions were different from what 
 they are to-day. The North-west was then 
 largely a wilderness ; the success of a 
 transcontinental road was problematical, 
 and it was useless to suppose that 
 we could then secure terms as favour- 
 able as we can to-day when that coun- 
 try is better known, and after the fact 
 has been demonstrated that a transconti- 
 nental line can secure business, and busi- 
 ness adequate to the payment of dividends 
 upon the cost of construction. Still, it was 
 quite evident at that time, and it was main- 
 tained by the then opposition, that the terms 
 which were given to the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway were extravagant. It was point- 
 ed out then that we were practically build- 
 ing a road for tbe Canadian Pacific Railway 
 and banding it over to them, and more than 
 .Uat, in point of fact that we might as well 
 build the road ounelves and own it, and 
 then .'!<'ll it if necessary. Tbe Mackende 
 scheme was to build a road from Lake Su- 
 perior to Selkirk on the Red river. They 
 had that road nearly completed when this 
 contract was made. They were proceeding 
 to extend that road to the Yellow Head pass 
 and 300 miles were under construction; they 
 were building a branch line from Selkirk 
 to Pembina to connect with the American 
 lines. We held, in discussing the terms of 
 tills contract, that if the Mackenzie road 
 were pushed vigorously to Yellow Head pass 
 we would then be In a position to secure 
 tbe construction of the entire line, and be 
 able to pass over to the company as a bonus 
 the portion of the road constructed. No 
 doubt this could have been done. If it bad 
 been done the cost to the country would 
 not have been one-third what it proved to 
 be under the scheme that was adopted by 
 the Conservative government. 
 
 
27 
 
 Now, these are contratU between the 
 polldei of the two goTernments with refer- 
 ence to a transcontinental line, contrasts 
 as to the difference that exists between tb« 
 sobrentlon panted in the on« case and in 
 the other. In the one case ^13^,000.000, 
 countluR the lard at less than its market 
 value to-day— In the other case, 114,500,000 
 In round numbers; the excess in favour of 
 the promoters of the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way being 1120,500.000. 
 
 Now, it was not necessary to have 
 granted these conditions to the Can- 
 adian Pacific Railway. It was not ne- 
 cessary for the reason that we re- 
 ceived a better offer. We received an 
 offer at the time this contract was under 
 consideration to build this road for 3,000,000 
 acres of land less, for $3,000,000 less sub- 
 sidy, the road to be the standard of the 
 Union Pacific as It then existed. Instead of 
 the standard of the Union Pacific as at 
 first constructed, and the difference was 
 very great. That offer asked no exemption 
 from taxation; that offer asked no exemp- 
 tion from duty on materials; that offer left 
 the road subject to the government control 
 of Its rates ; that offer left the road sub- 
 ject to the purchase by the government on 
 conditions favourable to the government. 
 All these conditions In the second offer made 
 it Infinitely better for the country than the 
 first offer. 
 
 Mr. CLANCY. That was a bluff offer 
 made by the hon. gentleman's friends at the 
 last moment. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. This bogus offer from 
 a bogus svndlcate was accompanied by a 
 cash deposit of $1,305,000. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. It was $395,000 more 
 
 than was required of the Canadian Pacific 
 
 Railway, and the best way to have demon- 
 
 trattd that this was a bogus offer was to 
 
 ve accepted it and swiped in the money if 
 
 was bogus. 
 
 Some hon. Mi-.»IBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Who made this of- 
 fer ?— W. P. Rowland, of Toronto ; A. R. 
 McMaster, of Toronto ; H. H. Cook, of To- 
 ronto. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Yes, a gentleman of 
 wealth and enterprise. 
 
 An hon. MEMBER. All Liberals. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Yes, I am thankful to 
 say they were— James McLaren, of Ottawa, 
 a millionaire; William Hendrle, of Hamil- 
 ton; John Stuart, of Hamilton; John Wal- 
 ker, of London: D. MacFle, of London; K. 
 Chlsbolm, of Brampton; John Proctor, of 
 Hamilton; P. S. Stevenson, of Montreal: A. 
 T, Wood, of Hamilton; A. W. Ross, of Win- 
 nipeg; George A. Cox, of Peterborough. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, bear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. A gentleman of wealtb, 
 a gentleman able to sabvent his undertak* 
 Ings to the extent of hundreds of thousand! 
 of dollars at any moment— P. Howland, To- 
 ronto; P. Larkiu, St. Catharines; Allan Gil- 
 mour, of Ottawa, n millionaire lumberman; 
 John Carruthers, of Kingston; W. D. liovltt, 
 of Yarmouth; Alexander Gibson, of Fred«- 
 rictou, a millionaire lumberman of New 
 Brunswick; Bamet & McKay, of Renfrew. 
 There were at least five names upon this 
 list of gentlemen who were millionaires. 
 This list of names could have furnished all 
 tlie security and all the money that was 
 necessary to carry through this project suc- 
 cessfully with the aid they asked from the 
 govornment. As an evidence of good faltb 
 they put up $500,000 in the Bank of Ottawa, 
 $.500,000 In the Bank of Commerce, and 
 $395,000 in other banks. They put up that 
 money as evidence of good faith, and they 
 put up $395,000 more than the amount re- 
 quired by the government from the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway syndicate. And yet, 
 some gentlemen tell us that this was a 
 bogus offer. Well, there is no other way 
 to exonerate themselves from the odium that 
 ought to attjich to them for having refused 
 this offer, except to put In that threadbare 
 plea. 
 Some hon. MEMBKUS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Now, Mr. Speaker, as 
 to the character of this second syndicate, 
 how would It compare with that of the 
 first syndicate. Let us see who were the 
 signers of the contract with the Cana-'.Ian 
 Pacific Railway. There was Charles Tup- 
 per 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Was he a very heavy 
 millionaire at the time ? I suppose he 
 could pay his debts; I do not know how 
 much more he would have had then. There 
 was George Stephen; George Stephen was 
 probably a man of considerable means, con- 
 nected with the Bank of Montreal. There 
 was Duncan Mclntyre; he was a millionaire 
 afterwards, he was not a millionaire at 
 this time; there was J. S. Kennedy, R. B. 
 Angus, J. J. Hill (per pro George Stephen), 
 Morton, Rose & Co., and Kohn, Relnach & 
 Co. The second offer was made by a num- 
 ber of gentlemen all of whom were Cana- 
 dians. Here we have In this first offer : Mr. 
 Hill, an American. 
 
 Mr. HENDERSON. A Canadian. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. He lives at St. Paul- 
 Morton, Rose & Co., English bankers; Kohn 
 & Relnach, Paris bankers. This second 
 offer was signed by men of greater weight, 
 men of greater responsibility, men who were 
 Canadians. In addition to the other things 
 I L.. enumerated, that offer would have 
 put this road under Canadian control. It 
 
28 
 
 •tated that the dir "ctors should be Britlsb 
 subjects, and it provided to secure the 
 country In every respect witb regard to the 
 management of the road. Their offer was 
 millions and millions of dollars better than 
 the offer of the first syndicate. The stipu- 
 lation that they should not lie exempt from 
 taxation would of Itself have conferred 
 enormous advantages on the settlers of 
 the west. In every respect that offer was 
 one that it would have been in the coun- 
 try's Interest to accept. It would have 
 left the company under supervision in the 
 matter of rates, which were entirely be- 
 yond our control In the case of the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway. 
 
 But enough. Mr. Speaker, of comparisons. 
 All of these serve to prove the superiority 
 of the Grand Trunk Pacific scheme over 
 any other scheme that has been put before 
 the people of this country, and to place that 
 superiority in the most striking light. Now, 
 Sir, In their criticism upon the obligations 
 that are to be Incurred under this arrange- 
 ment, I ask my hon. friends, in the first 
 place, to remember that the money expend- 
 ed on a road which is to be leased by a 
 responsible company at a rate of Interest 
 that will carry the cost of its construction. 
 Is not an addition in the proper sense to our 
 obligations. I ask them to bear In mind 
 hat the guarantee of the bonds on the moun- 
 tain section of the western division and 
 the cost of the division from Winnipeg 
 to Moncton, are not properly speaking an In- 
 crease to our debt ; because we have. In 
 the first place, the obligation of a responsi- 
 ble company to pay the Interest, and we 
 have at the end of fifty years, when that 
 property reverts to us, a property whose 
 value will be vastly more than the cost of 
 the road or the obligations which the road 
 represents. I ask these gentlemen to bear In 
 mind, in the second place, that this is a 
 country that Is to have great expansion of 
 its Interests, its property, its population, Its 
 resources, its tax paying power, in the near 
 future. We are providing, not for the pre- 
 sent, but for the future. We are enter- 
 ing now upon obllg.itlons which will cul- 
 minate five years h-'nce. when the roud 
 which these obligations create will b" s«reat- 
 ly needed— will be, In point of fact. Im- 
 peratively necessary : and when the period 
 of fifty years terminates, what may we rea- 
 sonably expect will be the population of 
 Canada ? If it increases at the rate of 
 20 per cent each decade, it will In 19.51 l)o 
 1.5,000.000. If it increases at the rate ^f 2.5 
 per cent in each decade It will be 18,000.000. 
 I see no reason why our population should 
 not Increase more rapidly than at the rate 
 of 25 per cent In each decade. During the 
 first fonr decades of the United States their 
 population increased at the rate of not less 
 than 30 per cent, and yet up to the year 
 1825 the addition to their population was 
 very small, amounting to 2.50.000 In a period 
 of two or three decades. We shall have the 
 natural Increase of a vigorous population. 
 
 and In addition an enormous Immigration 
 from the British Isles, from Scandinavia and 
 other parts of Europe, and a still greater Im- 
 migration from the middle and western por- 
 tions of the United States. So that we are 
 building for the future, and we are looking 
 forward to the time when the resources and 
 the population of this country will be three 
 or four times what they are at the pre- 
 sent moment. 
 
 What may we expect will be the in- 
 crease of our agricultural productions ? 
 This year the area in wheat amounted to 
 2,500,000 acres in Manitoba and 750,000 acres 
 In the Territories, and we expect to reap 
 from this land a crop of over 60,000,000 
 bushels. How much more wheat land have 
 we ? At a most moderate calculation, we 
 have 250.000,000 acres of wheat-land west 
 of Lake Superior. If we produce 60,000,000 
 bushels this year from 3,250,000 acres of 
 land, how many millions of bushels are we 
 likely to produce when that country Is popu- 
 lated and the greater part of the soil is 
 brought under cultivation, and when we in- 
 crease the cultivable area to sixty or seventy 
 or perhaps a hundred million acres 7 Let 
 hon. gentlemen sit down and figure that 
 out. We are confrjuting great changes In 
 our condition, great expansion In our busi- 
 ness. We cannot realize how great that 
 expansion will be, and we are making pro- 
 vision for It in the most moderate manner, 
 instead of recklessly and with undue haste. 
 As I have said, that country Is absolutely 
 dependent on railway communication. It 
 has no natural outlet to the sea. For all 
 the productions of that vast region of 250,- 
 000,000 acres of wheat-land, we must pro- 
 vide transportation by rail, and If we are 
 going to keep up with the procession, we 
 must provide it pretty fast. I think the 
 ex-Mlnister of Railways and Canals was 
 right when he said that there were men 
 in the audience which he addressed at Van- 
 couver who would live to see three and 
 possibly four transcontinental lines in Can- 
 ada. 
 
 As to the question whether this railway 
 will pay, I remember that question was de- 
 bated when the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 scheme was under consideration, and very 
 irravc doubts were expressed as to whether 
 it would. Well, the Canadian Pacific Rail- 
 way Company made its annual state- 
 ment a short time ago. Its total earn- 
 ings last year were S43.9,57.000. Its ex- 
 penses $28,120,000, and its net earnings 
 .$1.5,830,000. It has just declared a dividend 
 of 6 per cent. I can remember a few years 
 ago when its stock was worth 40. The day 
 l)efore yesterday, when the fl per cent divi- 
 dend was declared, its stock was worth 
 126, and that at a period when the bottom 
 has been knocked out of stocks, and the 
 best paying stocks are at a lower point 
 than they have been for many years. 
 
 V 
 
 > 
 
 Mr. HYMAN. 
 
 ginally ? 
 
 What was it sold at ori- 
 
 mm. 
 
29 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. I tbink at 25 cents on 
 the dollar, all but IS.OOO.'XK), wbtcb was sold 
 at par. So I Judge from ;b1s tbat the trans- 
 continental line flnandolly will have an as- 
 sured success. It will secure tbe trade 
 of the Nortb-west to our ports, If that 
 can be secured by any railway ; and if it 
 is made essentially a first-class road, with 
 a four-tenths per cent grade, heavy rails and 
 perfect construction, it will be able to com- 
 pete with the water routes in bringing down 
 grain for shipment to Europe at our own 
 ■eoports. 
 
 The contrast between tbe policies of the 
 two governments, in relation to the first 
 transcontinental line, and in relation to tbe 
 transcontinental line now under considera- 
 tion, is BO marked, so striking, that I do 
 sot see how any man of dispassionate judg- 
 ment can fail to approve of the scheme 
 which we have under consideration. This 
 scheme, Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding all 
 that may be said In regard to it, hns been 
 thoroughly matured. It bears internal evi- 
 dence of that fact. Let the ablest lawyer in 
 this country scrutinize this agreement and 
 seek to pick flaws in it, and they will be of 
 th^ most infinitesimal character If he finds 
 ar.y at all. The Interests of the government 
 are safeguarded in the most perfect and 
 complete manner. The only surprise to me 
 is that a gi-eat railway corporation, with the 
 resources which tbe Grand Trunk possesses, 
 should have consented to be bound In tbe 
 manner In which It Is by the stipulations of 
 this agreement. It is folly to contend that 
 this Is not a contract In the Interest of the 
 people of Canada. It Is folly to contend that 
 this is not a contract that reflects great 
 credit on the gentlemen, whoever they are, 
 who matured and perfected it. We are 
 told that we should have waited for sur- 
 veys, that we should not have been In a 
 hurry, that we should have known more de- 
 finitely where the road should go, and so 
 forth. Sir, we have had surveys. We have 
 a knowledge of the country In a gener.il 
 sense, and we know In a general way Its 
 character for railway construction. There 
 was no time to lose in going forward. We 
 have to go on with surveys as It is, there 
 is no doubt about that ; but we have per- 
 fected an arrangement which we might not 
 have been able to make twelve months 
 hence. 
 
 We have got Into this arrangement a great 
 company, which perhaps might then see the 
 matter in a different light, or possibly 
 might not be In a position to take hold of 
 tbe contract and enter into the stipulntiona 
 it has done. When you have a good thing 
 take It. Time and tide wait for no man. 
 and If you neglect to take at Its flood the tide 
 which will lead you on to fortune, the op- 
 portunity may never again present itself. 
 Do not be like the Irishman, who just after 
 he landed in America, saw a dollar on the 
 ground and passed it by with scorn l)ecause 
 he was going to a section of the country 
 
 where money grew on the bushes. I think 
 that the perfection of this contract reflects 
 unquestionably great credit on my right 
 lion, friend the Tremier of this Dominion. 
 He may fairly claim, I apprehend, that this 
 is his scheme. I apprehend that he may 
 claim credit to a large extent for tbe con- 
 summation of this bargain with the Grand 
 Trunk Pacific Railway. If that be the case, 
 I believe that this will be such a monument 
 as any public man might desire to have to 
 his memory when he passes from this stage 
 of action. Tbe right bon. gentleman con- 
 sidered all the suggestions of the varione 
 schemes presented. He considered them 
 courteously, fully and fairly, and I think I 
 may say that in meeting these various pre- 
 sentations of these various schemes or opin- 
 ions, he has left those who presented them 
 satisfied that he was right, and willing to 
 accept his opinion. This I believe to be the 
 case in every instance except one — tbe case 
 of my bon. friend tbe ex-Mlnister of Rail- 
 ways. The right hon. gentleman has shown 
 throughout his firm belief in a national 
 road. That has been with him the para- 
 mount consideration— a road which would 
 serve national purposes, which would give 
 an outlet on Canadian soil through Cana- 
 dian ports for Canadian productions In the 
 far west. It remains to be seen whether 
 this road will do all that is predicted of It. 
 If it be constructed in a thoroughly first 
 class manner In every respect, I believe it 
 will. And when both the government and 
 the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway have to 
 face the alternative that It be not so con- 
 structed, it will not accomplish what Is ex- 
 pected, I believe they will see that It Is 
 built In such a way that It will bo capable 
 of producing the results we all hope for. 
 No doubt there are many gentlemen who 
 would throw cold water on our aspirations. 
 We will perhaps have reason to compare 
 these men with the late DeWitt Clinton, 
 who, when in 1817, he was promoting the 
 construction of the Erie canal, which re- 
 .olutlonized the commercial history of New 
 York and made that city a great seaport, was 
 ridiculed and assailed by lampoons and 
 criticisms about Clinton's ditch from Albany 
 to Buffalo. Well, Sir, Clinton's ditch was a 
 nation malier. It affected tlie destinies of 
 a great people in tlie west, just as the 
 Laurier road will do for great districts of 
 this country. 
 
 We are incurring, oi course, heavy obli- 
 gations, but they are moderate in view of 
 what will be realized from the expenditure. 
 In the abstract, however, they are heavy 
 oliligations, and we will become responsible 
 for a Large sum of money. But we will 
 liave an asset which will represent some- 
 thing. We will have an asset of great and 
 ever IncrP"-ing value in the transcontinental 
 road. It , i'^ be money well expended. It 
 will be a judicious investment which will 
 not, after the first seven years, bear upon 
 the resources of the country. The future 
 
so 
 
 will onqoeatlonably lutttfy this expenditure. 
 We liave in the past constantly under- 
 rated onr potential source* of power. We 
 have failed to realise tbat we bave resources 
 for the creation of a great nation. We have 
 failed to realize tbat we have the room and 
 the soil to produce food for 100,000,000 peo- 
 ple. We bave not allowed ourselves to rise 
 to the level of the destiny tbat awoits us 
 and the possibilities within our grasp. To- 
 day onr conceptions of the future cease 
 to be a dream, hazy, indistinct and, perhaps, 
 fantastic. Conditions confront us, the out- 
 eotne of wblcb we can measure and deter- 
 mine—conditions as to the extent of our 
 arable land, and mineral resources, and the 
 certain influx of population from abroad. 
 All these conditions we can measure and 
 nnderstaud. We know that a Judicious ex- 
 penditure will be cheerfully borne by future 
 generations, and tbat should we fail to do 
 the woric we are called on to perform, the 
 future will blame us for our neglect to grasp 
 
 the great possibilities of this Immensa 
 country. Under all these clrcnmataneea, 
 with a rosy future expanding before 
 us— and we can .look down the vista 
 and see within a century fifty minion or 
 sixty million under our government— with 
 tills future expanding tiefore us, are we not 
 haggling In a penny-wise pound-foolish man- 
 ner in standing here and critlcistng a policy 
 which proposes to give this country a great 
 national road from ocean to ocean— a road 
 which will pass by a direct route from Qnebee 
 to the west, a road which will pass ttarongh 
 1,700 miles of rich and undeveloped terri- 
 tory, and from which branch lines will ex- 
 tend to the Yukon and In various directions 
 for the develi^ment of this vast country. 
 Shall we not be conscious of what is before 
 us, shall we not realize our future and 
 reach forth our band to grasp our destiny 
 by corrylng out the sound policy now sub- 
 mitted to us ? 
 
 iriln