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Mr. Speaker, It Is witb feelings of timidity and hesitation that I ap- proach the discussion of this question this afternoon, after the implied rebuke admin- istered to hon. gentlemen on this side of the House, and. perhaps, by implication, to many on the other side of the House, by the hon. member for Russell (Mr.. Edwards) last evening. I still remember the fine scorn with which he alluded to my unfortunate friend, a laAvj-er who represents the county of Westmoreland in this House (Mr. Powell), for having ventured to approach this ques- tion from a standpoint of incomplete in- formation and inexperience, and I equally well remember the self-satisfied air with which the hon. gentleman drew himself up as much as to say, Now, you are going to hear from a business man. Well. Sir, I listen- ed with both ears, as I think did every hon. gentleman present on this side of the House, for the utterances of this business man on tlie Yukon scheme ; and I am free to say that if a lawyer from the county of Westmore- land could not make a better business plea than did this business man who represents the county of Russell, I would be jashamed of him. For M'hcn it was all bolle(l--down, what did the hon. gentleman from Russell say ? Naively enough lie confessed that at first blush he did not like this scheme at i all ; but after the party whip had been I cracked and party discipline brought into ! play, ho heg.an to find it not so objectionable as It had had first seemed to him. When the hon. gentleman came to give the reasons why he proposed to vote for that contract, and why he propose l to give his adhesion to the scheme, I was lost in admiration. He gave it as his opinion as a business man that the contract was a good one, and there he stopped. Now, an opinion like that Is quite sulticient for the man who holds it, if he holds it strongly but an opinion which is not backed up by reasons good and suffi- cient, is of no eartlily use to men who do not wish simply to be led by the opinion of a man but by the well-based and reason- able opinion of a man. When he had occa- sion to speak of the business part of the ar- rangement, the contract wltli Mackenzie & Mann for instance, he made the extraordin- ary proposition that he was in favour of it because it was a bad thing for Messrs. Mac- kenzie & Mann, that there was nothing In it for them ; and ten minutes afterwards he declared that that contract ought to be carried through and he gave it his support becausf in that way this country would con- serve to Itself $10,000,000 or $20,000,000 worth of trade that would othtiwise be lost to Canada In respect to the Yukon country. It would seem to me, though I am not a business man in tliis sense, that If the con- tract is carried out with Mackenzie & Mann and they come by that into possession of a transport franchise, and that by reason of the opening up of the country in whloli that ■PHRI^ franchise is situated ttiere arises trade to the extent of $10,000,000 or $20,000,000 per year, two things follow as a necessary con- sequence : first, it must be a rich country In order to call for that trade ; and second, that the traffic and transportation over the railway will be as regards Messrs. Macken- zie & Mann very profitable and remunera- tive. So much, thcp, with respect to the business view of it ; and 1 mention it sim- ply to show that the monopoly of know- ledge and of argument and reason with re spect to tills which, after all, is a very com- mou-sense proposition, is not the property of any one member in this House, even though that member be the boasted business man from the county of Russell. Now, would it not be well, Mr. Speaker, for a moment to ask ourselves what is not the question to be debated on this the second reading of the Yukon Bill, because 1 think an attempt has been made on the opposite side of the House to introduce issues which do not fairly belong to this question? In the first place, I wish to state that we are .not discussing a question of patriotism, either absolute or relative ; that in approaching this sul)ject and in discussing and deciding this we can do It from a point of view which does not raise tlie question of the relative or absolute patriotic standing of either party in this matter. But it is significant and somewhat amusing to see hou. gentlemen climbing into these new clothes of theirs labelled " patriotic " all over the back, front and sides, after they have been trying to cover themselves for fifteen years with the tattered rags of every policy in the world. Sir, the Liberal-Conservative party does not need to spend one minute to convince Itself or tb. country of its patriotism, its desire for the prosperity and benefit of Canada or its adhesion to the principles of the union of Canada and every other part of the British Empire. It is not a question either of main- taining the rights of this country as compared with the United States. We can approach this question a,nd discuss it and settle it and both sides be just as strongly in favour of maintaining whatever the rights of Canad.-i may l)e in the premises. But it is a little sig- nificant that hon. gentlemen opposite are to- day in their position of responsibility as the executive rulers of the counti-y brought up by a pretty sharp turn in face of some of their expressions, for the last ten, twelve or fifteen years with respect to this very question. What I mean to say is this : that tlie Con- servative side of the House is in favour of the maintenance of every just right that Canada possesses, on sea-coast or frontier, and will not yield one single one of those rights so far as it is concerned to the United States when they attempt to force concessions from us, to press for something which they wish to secure along the Atlantic Coast or in counectiou with the Yukon trade. It is not either a question of the ab- solute onenlniif up of n route Into the Yukon. Both sides of the House may be equally in favour of opening up that country ; and yet there may be an honest difference of opin- ion as to what is the best route and what is the best method of securing that route. Let us, if we can. then, for a moment br'ish away these extraneous considerations as not being vital to the matter in hand, and let us see what the question under discus- sion really is. It is simply a business ques- tion. It is a question as to what is the best route for Canada to adopt in order to get into that Yukon country, not what Is the best route temporarily, not what Is the best route for a particular section, but what, taken as a whole, looking at the interest of Canada on the one hand as a whole and the possibilities of that new country on the other, what is the best route for us to adoit. We have to take the best route, considered also in two other respects, -first, and in tiie least important respect, as to the adven- turous spirits that are proposing to go into that country ; secondly, and in a much more vital i-espect, as to the source of sup- ply and its disposition geogiaphlcally with reference to the Yukon country. This Is a grave quesition. Associated with that is the question: How may we best obtain this road into the Yukon, when once we decide as to what is the best route V If you will allow me, Mr. Speaker, I wish to say that in my humble opinion there has been quite too much of the rush and the stamp- ede in this matter as it has" been placed before us by the Government. What 1 mean to say is, that we to-day are preparing legislation which will vitally affect this country for years and years to come, and it is worth while tak'ng suflicient time and gathering sufficient information before we plunge into the heavy expense of opening up what is to be the route, and the best route, into the Yukon country. And, Sir, if there is any plan by which the necessary exigencies of this present year— and perhaps part of the next year— can be met by a m'^derate expense, let us meet it in that way ar "" re- serve for tlie time when greater lino- dge will be at our disposal the more important and far more expensive proposition of open- ing up a permanent route into this region. Anotlier (juestion wliich allies itself with this is : What is the reasonal)le cost which this country can afford to pay, and in what is it best that tliat cost should be payable, money or lands, or partly in each ? It is a plain fiict that too much may be asked for opening up any route into that country, when we come to compare it with what may be got as compensation in return. The question may very well arise, and indeed has arisen now. and a grave question it is : whether it is economy and in tlie liest in- terests of the country to pay In cash or to pay by alienating the prospective wealth of the country; and. Sir, statesmen may awake to find that what they supposed was good economy in .ilienating the prospective wealth of the country in order to avoid b. present drain upon our finances, may turn out to be a most extravagant method and one wliieh In tlie end will inure, not to the greatest benefit of Canada financially, but just the opposite. We must be careful that, to avoid the criti- cism of the man who does not want an extra feM' cents of taxation to-day, we shall not taLo the other alternative which may roll that very man end every citizen of this country of $100 for every cent of present taxation, by bhis transfer of future pros- pective wealth. It is a simple question : What is the best route, how may we best attain it, and In what should we pay the cost 'i That is a business question which any man on either side of 'the House can approach with the hope of c-oming to some fair solution of it. Before entering into that question, how- ever, I desire to say this : that certain in- cidental circumstances have prejudiced my mind, and I will venture to say have prejudic- ed the minds of every cool observer of events in this country during the last three months. Let us contemplate the vai'lous side-lights thrown on this question. Sir, one of these side lights is the utter contempt for parlia- mentary precedents which has been shown j by the Government in most important par- ; ticulars in the way it has been pi-oposed to ma Ice this bargain and to impose it upon this House and upon the country. I asl£ any man sitting opposite me to-day, parti- san though he be, is he prepared to stand on his leet in this House and before this : constitutionally governed country, and afhrm i this proposition : that we no longer have any use in tliis country for that old parlia- mentary and constitutional principle, that the franchises of Canada are the property of its Parliament and ought not to be given away by its executive. There is no man, not even the most utter partisan on the [ Government benches, who would dare in the wliite light of public opinion to contra- dict that principle. Let me ask you a question : Has not that principle been utterly and opeui.\ violated in this case ? No man ' can answer that it has not, and the only question tliat remains for every honest man to asic liimse'if is : Was there any reasonable reason why that principle should be thus utterly violated in this case, and his answer must be to his conscience. Sir, the principle which from the reign of King .Tohn down to the time of the Georges was the central principle around which waged the war for parliamentary and poli- tical freedom in Great Britain Is not of so little importance that at this time in the parliamentary history of Canada a man can afford to give the lie to it with-: out having a very urgent and suffi- cient reason to justify his political conscience, to justify himself to his ' constituents, in setting at naught the ' principles of parliamentary freedom which ; cfQT-arTi In a conntrv liire tliis. Is there ' Hon G E F— IJ ' a man sitting on the opposite side of the House to-day who will affirm In this Par- liament that It Is not for the best govern- I ment of the Dominion that when any great ! public franchise is to be given it ought to be open to public competition by tender I and sealed by contract ? Let any man dare I contradict this and he pleads for the worst I forms of corruption that could be brought ! into tlie government of any country. No ; man on that side of the House will affirm i that the principle which 1 have enunciated 1 is not correct, and yet. Sir, every man i sitting behind the Government knows that i this principle has been contemptuously and determinedly violated in this very case. Was there any great national exigency In- : volving the pub^c weal which made it abso- lutely necessary that time should not bo : taken for that open competition and call i for tenders ? That is the question which i every man has to answer to his own con- ' science and to his constituents. Now, Sir, that is one of the things which predisposes me, and predisposes the ma- I jorlty of people in this country— and I will go further and say, predisposes the majority of men sitting on the opposite side of the j House— to feel dissatisfied with this arrange- ; ment when it first came to their notice ; and m.any of them to feel dissatisfied with it up to this very date, though they may be whipped into line and made to vote for the contract. I know whereof I am speak- ing, and I know that is true. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND C05I- I MBBOB (Sir Richard . Cartwright). Our friends seen to have made you their father confessor. Mr. FOSTER. I would be sorry, Sir, to be the hon. gentleman's confessor ; I fear I should have to listen to more black malice than any parishoner ever poured into the ear of a parish priest, though, for some time it has appeared as if the good things of office which the hon. gentleman had taken into his system has made him almost an apostle of sweetness and light, and that the old malice had almost entirely left Ills system. I congratulate ithe hon. gentleman on the change ; but should he go out of office again, sliould he get back to the old condition, I beg to be excused from being his father confessor. There is another side-light which disposes me against this scheme, and which I be- lieve disposes the large majority of the people of this country against It. What is that ? It is the duplicity— and I use the word advisedly— that has characterized these transactions from the first that we knew of them, and I do not know how long before, up to the present time ; and I will endeavour to prove that. What reason was there, Sir. why the Government, in December or .January last, in the discussion nnd deliberation upon the opening up of the resources of so great and promising a sec- tion of country as the Yukon difeUlcl— what reason of state or of publio utility was there, why they should have barred, the uoor, aud locked themselves within the Council Cham- ber, and let practically uo one know of the plans which they were discussing or the propositions which they wished to bring to fumiment, until they had made the tinnl contract, and had practically in black and white their ultimatum to present to Parlia- ment and the people ? The answer has not been given to that question ; the answer cannot be given to it. And yet, Sir, al- though newspaper reporters are fairly enter- prising, and the people of this country are intelligent and wide awake, there was scarcely a breath of suspicion in the public mind of this country that anything like a measure to build a railway and form a system of transport aud communica- tion with the Yukon was even 'n the wind, until we received the notice in the " Globe " when the contract had practically been signed. Unless some reason of public utility Is given, there can be no other motive ^ for tliis concealment than this, that there is a reason behind which has not yet come j out ; and it is for the Government tliem- selves to take away the suspicion of a baser and less worthy reason by stating to this country, in terms unequivocal aud easily to be understood, why secrecy and duplicity surrounded that transaction from last July up to the 2(>th day of January, 1898. Sir, when they had hatched the whole scheme, and not only hatched it, but handed it over to its sponsors, Messrs. Maun .^ Mackenzi(\ tliey sent for a trusted newspaper -friend of the Government, aud put their case into the hands of the "Globe" editor or correspondent, to give to the i)ublio of Canada the tirst and formal intimation, not of what they proposed to do, but of what they had done. I have no hesitation in saying. Sir, that that information, as it was arranged and put out, was meant lo have, as it actually had. the effect of catch- ing a public approval which the scheme itself did not warrant— catching it by two methods ; by skilful concealment of terms in the barg.ain which would prove disagree- able ; and by. if not wilful, yet on the face of it, when you come to understand the bar- gain, patent misrepresentation of the facts of the case. What was the first impres- sion that was conveyed to the people ? That, in the first place, the Government had been immensely careful— that in giving this fran- chise and in opening up the country, they had conserved the farmer's interest, to wit, in ,that they had withdrawn all arable lands from the operation of this contract. My hon. friends laugh. Well, they may. They know that no man who has the run of this House, and who understands that country, would be misled by that observation, which entitled the Government, in the mind of the man who gave it forth, to very great praise and very great honour. They know that that would be laughed at by members of the House ; but ihey know also that nlne- lenths of the people of this country have not the least idea as to whether there is arable land in the Yukon country or not ; aud from that great mass of intelligent men, l)ut who are on this point ignorant, simply because they have uo means of being in- formed, they snatched a favourable opinion lor themsc^lvos by representing that they had withdrawn all arable lands from the (>peration of this contract. What more ? 'J'he first idea that was put out by that olH- ciai comuumication, by the gentleman who luul the particulars of the contract put into his hands by Ministers of the Crown, re- ••■arding the cost of building the railway, was that it would have cost the Goveniment .•rVr.OOO.OOO or .$8,000,000. but that by this arrangement they .would get it built with- out costing the country one cent. There were two misrepresentations in that. At the very moment the Ministers authorized that information to be spread before the l)ublic, thev had under their hand. t!ie tes- timonv and report of their own engineer that the whole road could be built for $3,200.- 000, on the mileage which has been taken by themselves in this contract. And yet. Sir, they put forth, to snatch a snap verdict from the great public of this country, that they had saved immensely, because they had not plunged the people into an cxiienditure of $7,000,00(1 or $8,000,000 ; aud it was days before I knew myself— and I follow these things pretty well— that the contract was not for a good, broad gauge, solid road, but simply a tramway, with an I indifferent track aud an indifferent weight I of rails. i Willi t liappened next. Sir? There imme- I diatelv coinmeuced in the press of hon. gen- j tlemen opposite— aud it was followed up in i iliis House— an attempt to minimize the ' value of the lands in tiie Yukon. A crusade ! has been set on foot by hon. geutlemen op- , posite to minimize the value of the lands lU • the Yukon district. Why ? Because, for- ' sooth, if they could only persuade the people : tliat these lands are not worth much, tlu-y i would thereby minimize the value of the tre- I mendouslv heavy subsidy which they have ' granted to Mackenzie & Mann. Without a i thought of consistency, Minister after Minis- ! tor, find spijaker nfter speaker, in tins House i nud through the columns of the country i press and th? city press which reported ! them, began a crusade for minimizing the I value of those lands. Are those gentlemen t ill a confidence game V And if so, who are ' they attempting to confidence? Why, before I an.s- Minister opened his mouth, before any I member sitting behind the Ministers opoiied I his mouth to minimize and detract from the lvalue of tho.'.e lands, the Government itself authorized the publication of a Klondike otficial guide. That guide was published under the authority of the Department of the Interior, and sent broadcast throughout this and every country in the world. As I am Inforinp'l, more thnu half a milllou oop- ies aro already upon the market, ami every lino and every page of that work extols and masnlties the value and the richness of those lands in the Yukon. Is that work, published under the (iovernment imprimatur, true or Is it false In its facts ? If It Is true, these Ministers and their supporters who now seek to deprecate the value ot these lands, are guilty of basely^ deny- ing their own otticlal information. For Avhat purpose ? In order to conflden-je tliis House, or tliat side of it at least, into sup- porting this measure on the ground that tl'e lands are wortli very little or nothing. Ov are tliey confldoncing tlio great i)ul/iif' and the world, to wliom they have sent bro;id- cast this official guide, vouched for by tlie Minister of the Interior, written, as Mr. Ogil- vie says, under the express autliority of tiiat hon. Minister. A'^'hlch are they trying to do —gull the v.oi'ld and llie adventurous seekers of riches by false inform.ation. or endeav- ouring to get tliis contract througli this House by a persistent attempt to make it apnenr to tlie conscience and minds of the members of this House, or as many as ;!iey can influence, that, after all. if you silve away 4,000,000 acres of picked gold land, it amounts to notiiing been use nobody knows wlieilier it is worrli any tiling or not V I find another instance of this duplicity lu the fact thfiT they have warned the orlicial and engineering mileage of this road in The oontv.T(!t they have presented to this House. We hjive had no expl;ination of thai. The hon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Blairj ougJit to l(o here to explain it nmv. !ind I ask the right lion. First Minister at this .luncture of Tlie dehnle— !iud I have a righf to an answer: ■\Vlien 'Siv. .Jennings reiiorts to you that it will tal;e 200 and odd miles of railway to re.'K-h from a certain point to another point, by what autliority or on what inforoiation have you reiluced that 200 miles to l.W miles in the contract you have presented to us ? For any other purpose than to apparently diminish the area of the land grant by the amount that it would have been augmented. If you were to multiple the difference in mileage by 2.5,000 acres per mile ? Has the hon. Minister of Railways (Mr. Elalr), has tlie hon. Minister of the Interior (Mr. Sifton), has any of the Ministers any satisfactory explanation to give why they ask subsidy for 150 miles of road, more or less, when there is not a line In the otflcial report— and they cannot get any better Information than that at this moment —which warrants them in asking less than for 175 to 200 miles, more or less ? Why this duplicity ? Why cannot the Ministers be honest and above-board ? Unless they have reasons to give for cuttiqg down the mileage, why do they not. like men. sav that it Is 200 or 175 miles and not 150, and honestly face the larger land grant ? Again, wo have been told that this mea- sure should be put through because of three great considerations, namely, Impending starvation, possible rebellion, and a oon- tingeu' loss of the territory lo Canada for- ever. In this House, and in another House, all thjse have been urged— the last one moat strongly ill the other House— by a member of this Government ; and I well remember how this Napoleonic Minister of the Interior (Mr. Siflon) became Inflated In size and elevated in power of voice, as he declared that he was not above going down to Wash- inglon and seeing Mr. Alger, If thereby he could be a saviour of the poor starving wretches in the Yukon coimtiy, and a min- ■ ister of mercy to those who wanted bread. And lie went down .tnd saw the humane Mr. Alger, and prevailed upon him to consider liim as the saviour of the poor starving un- fortunates in that country. Iteind(>ers were purcliased, stmvs were obtnined, but wlien Mr. Alger at last woke u]i to proper reports and information, he countermanded the whole tiling, lie sold his reindeers and sold or gave away his supplies, and came to the conclusion that the " t.ale of woe " of the Minister of the Interior was an im- aginary one. Why, the Minister of the Interior himself contradicted it, when he boasted that on our side of the line, from before Christmas to the present, not one man had gone hungry, so well iiad lie posted his men and his Commissioner Walsli. The cry of preventing starvation had some effect at first but the strength has g(uie from it, and every one today sees that it is as hollow as some of the other pre- tensions of the hon. gentleman why this measure sh(nild be put through. Then he raised the bogey of rebel- lion—there was to be rebellion. But. liow. or Avhen, was that rebellion to come ? At the best, on the calculation of hon. gentlemen themselves, this road cannot be ciiuipleled before the tirst of September. I am not much of !. prophet, but I voiiture lo say. that if they do get this Bill through rarliameut. there will be no ingress or egress by that road on the first of September or Ocl-ober either. There are some things that man cannot flght against, and 1 am in- clined to think that hon. gentlemen opposite have run up againet one of these tilings. Rebellion ? I think I questioned the hon. geutlemnn as to how many mounted police he had up there. He told me that he had 270 there and on the way thither. To-day we have been told that 200 men of the per- manent force are to be sent in addition. Is not this force sufHcient ? What right has he to say that he expected there would bo rebellion 7 Law and order lias al- ways beec the grace and pride of this Dominion. Take the southern Bri- tish Columbia region, overrun by miners of every nationality In the world— men who, before they came there, carried their pistols in their hip-pockets, and knives in their belts and shot and stabbed at sight —when they came over to this coun- / try, thev slnn)ly laid them aHide ou the shelves 'aud becaiue law-abldiuK citizens. Throughout the whole of the British Colrm- bla mining region law and order have been as well maintained as on the streets of Ot- tawa—even if I lulslit not say better. Was there any ground for supposing that under honest and just conditions law and order would not be maintained In the Yukon dis- trict V Disorder aud anarchy take place In a mining region, iu ulnety cases out of a hundred, only when rank injustice is doni; to the miners and not without that. There Is no body of men, tlshermeu, artisans, farmers- no body of men nnywhere, who tire so vitally interested in justice being done as a body of miners in a mining rountvy, be- cause their wealtli, their wiiole stake de- pends upon It. ^ . , ^ . , But there was something more f right! ul still— that we might lose that country. I have not heard that scare of late. When the Minister in another place was pressed to tell what were his reasons for fearing this, he would not give them ; they were safely folded within his bosom ; they In- volved such a state secret that he could not Impart It to them ; but if they knew what he knew, there would be nothing but the most patriotic clamour for that TesUn Lake Railway to be built aud built at once. The First INIiuister has not brought that machine into oiM^ratiou in this House. I do not think he will do so, because it proved so little effective in the other House, and has now the reputation of being an altogether out-of- date instrument of war. More than that, if there was not a delib- erate attempt, there was an effectually suc- • cessful attempt to prevent every contractor, every financial concern in the v> orld, from getting any chance to make a fair, open ten- der for the work of constructing the Teslln Lake Railway. Whether it was deliberate, determined upon in the sanctum of the Min- ister of the Interior months before the con- tract was signed, or whether it was not. makes no difference In the ultimate outcome or in the turpitude witli wliich the affair might be branded. The outcome was this— that capitalists In Canada and throughout the world had no chance whatever to put In their propositions aud compete for the building of this road. Why not ? Is there any answer to that ? What is a Minister If he is not a trustee for the people ? What business has he to bo a Minister if his ob- ject is not to get the best for the le;ist for the country. And I have the evidence of my hon. friend (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) who sits before me that he Is not going to resort to the miserable technicality that because the offer was not In at a certain time, though it proved to be a better offer, It ought not to be accepted in the interest of the country. I have him down in black and white on that subject. And yet h(> has stood up once or twice In this House and come very close to the assertion that it is all very well for men to put In their propo- sitions after the contract is signed, but they should not be accepted. He might speak In this way of those wlio had had an opportun- ity openly to put in tlielr tenders aud had f.'iiled to'do so. But wlieu my hon. friend asks for no tender, locks the door against tenders "lul tlien makes a contract, if, after tlie contract is made, it is found that capi- talists are ready to build for less than the c:intra«'t jirlce. my right hon. fi-'leud is estopped, if he has any regard for con- sistency and his kuisihtly word, from rais- ing a "single objection. Well, Sir, what liappeued V Mr. Ilamillon Sniitli came for- ward. Mr. Ilamlltoa Smith, of wiioiii imn. gentlemen opposite speak as " one Hamilton Smith " and as " Smith " and as " that pre- varicator " and as " a busted bubble," to use tlie eletranr lani:ii;ige of my hon. friend from Lincoln (Mr. GibSDU). or, to use tlie fine Insinuation, the flue. I had almost said religious Insinuation of the hon. member for Burrard (Mr. Maxwell) that- man Smith, wiio might not be able to pay his board bill— as if such a man should be shown any consideration. Sir, 1 venture to say that the First Minister had only to cable to proper sources of Information to find that Mr. Hamilton Smith and ^he men behind him were men in every way capable of undertaking such a contract as this and carrying it out to successful completion. But.' Sir, probably Mr. Hamilton Smitli did not have l)efore tiie knowledge that he has now of the ways In which a Liberal Cana- dian Government carry on these things. I suppose he thought that when capitalists were eager to compete for a public work, the Government would be eager to have them compete ; and when he once Intimated that he was In a position to compete, he Nupposed he would \w given an opportunity to compete. That wa.s a rather old-fashion- ed idea of Mr. ^janiilton Smith ; but still, he held It, and he pays ihe penalty so far as the Ministry sitting opposite is concerned. But, Sir, I I)og again to disagree with the First Minister with regard to that Hamilton Siuitli episode iu two particulars. One Is that the ristht hon. gentleman himself, tliough havlim- (lelinlte iuformation under his hand and over Mr. Hamilton Smith's own signa- ture that lie had never made or been autho- rized to make a proposition on bei.alf of the Rothschilds, sent some sort of telegram to Lord Strathcona to put liimself in direct communication with tlie Rothschilds and get a repudiation of Mr. Hamilton Smith's alleged representation of that great firm. Now, what did the First Minister want to get, if he was honest in his request for in- formation ? He wanted to meet an asser- tion made in this House and in the country, that Mr. Hamilton Smith had offered to build the road and that the Rothschilds were backing him. Was not that It ? If that was the information he wanted, that Information had been given to him by Mr. Hamilton Smith over bis own signature In these words : I have uever been authorized to make any proposition on behalf of N. M. Kothsehlld & Co. Aud, If he were honest and wished nothing more than to meet that allowed stateu.eut on the part of tlio members of this House, the presa and the country, all he had to do was to rise In this House, take Mr. Hamilton Smith's letter and read that gentleman's own statement that he had never made a proposition on behalf of tlie Kothsohllds aud had uever been, authorized to do so. That would have met the allegation and Mould have .set right the distorted view of the press and the pub- lie. Why did not the right hou. gentleman do that V lie was after Miaietliiiig else which would act as a repudiation of Mr. Uaii'iltou Smith aud so lower him iu the estimation of hou. members aud iu the mind of any one who was following this question. Now, Sir, I would i.'it It to the right hon. the First Minister— who took oc- casion to leave this House the moment I broached this questiou— whether lie did au honourable thing from one gentleman to an- otlier when, haviug Mr. Hamilton Smiths disavowal, he went behind the geutleman's baclv and sent the .secret telegram to Lord Stratheona. The word of one gentleman is as good as the word of another ; and all tliat tlie Prime Minister could have needed in his most exi- gent mood, was to , ask Mr. Hamilton Smith wlicther he did really represent the Koihs- chlids or not. When he was told that he did not, he had all that was reiiuired, and he liad simply to use that iut'ormation that he got at lirst hand. But instead of doiu;; that lie telegraphed to Lord Stratnco?aa ro put himself in comminiication with the Uothsehilds. What more";' We do not know ; we want to know, the House has a right to know, Mr. Hamilton Smith lias a right to know, the public of this country has a right to kuow. A telegram reeelv'.Hl in reply to that private telegram is heralded iu the press of tills country, given to the reporters and sent everywliere, aud news- paper head-lines come out. " Hamilton Smit;i re,)udiated by the Rothschilds." Tliat was an answer to a telegram. When we asketl the Kirst Minister for the telegram he said, I will Uriug it down to-morrow. Rut when the morrow came he said. I cannot bring it down, it is a private telegram. In the first place, there can be no such thing as a private telegram on public business wli're you give the resulting answer to tlie public and then refuse to give the question put on belialf of the iiubllc. In the second place, I say to tlie Prime Minister that when he refuses to read tliat telegram the only con- clusion you c.-in draw from it is that the questiou was improperly worded, thiit he eith(>r made a statement in the telegram that Hamilton Smith represented himself as an agent of the Rothschilds, which was false, or some other thing was put into the ques- tion which the First Minister found was in- correct and would not, if published, inure to his political advantage, and he took the al- ternative of pocketing his honour rather than suffering politically. I am, says the hon. gentleman, the keeper of my own hon- our. Then, for God's sake, let him keep all such honour ; no one else wants it. Then, Sir, there was the Van Home epi- sode. Mr. Hamilton Smith put himself In communication with Sir William Van Home. Sir William Van Home put himself in eoiu- nuuiication with the Minister of the In- terior. Is there any denial to that V Tliero cannot lie, the Minister himself has acknowl- edged it. Of the language of the conversa- tion that took place between Sir William Van Home and the Minister of the In- terior, we know absolutely nothing. It was " casual." as the Minister of the Interior says. So the iut'ormation about the sleigh road is " casual," according to the Minis- ter of the Interior. The first pert and boy- ish answer, wlien asked the grave ques- tion across the floor of this House, was : Well, 1 -have no telegraph line to Wraugel. Of course not. Then when he became a little ashamed of that pert answer, he led us to suppose that haviug liatl a " casual conversa- tion." tlie sleigh road was completed. I ask the Minister now, as responsible in part for tliat legislation, ;is responsible for that clause which is an essential part of It, if he is in a position to inform this House to-day tliat 3asons. and I will tell him why. The .Minister may feel liis responsibility or he may not. He m.'iy think that he is simply plain Mr. Sifton, of Brandon, but the facts are that, to whatever it is due, he li.as been translated out of that sphere, and is to- day one of Iler Majesty's Ministers in this House. As Her Majesty's Minister in this House and representative of the Govern- ment, he has caused it to lie heralded broad- cast as an iiiqiortant and essential part of a contract made, that by the 10th day of Marcii all intending adventurers seeking the gold 'fields of tlie Yukon can use a IH'acticable sleigli road, with slielters at every twenty-five miles for 300 miles, from the mouth of tlie Stikine to the head of Tes- lin Lake ; and hundreds and thousands of young men in tliis country, from all Its provinces, are. to-day either on the route, or they are preparing to go there, or are already there under the Impression that the Minister's word was to be relied on, and that they would llnd there what has ] been stated In thla Parllauieut would bo found. They go, Sir, to the mouth of the titiklne, they are camping there to-day by the thousands. The least casual conver- sation with Mr. Mann will give the Min- ister that Information. They are camped there without a shadow of a chance to Ret further It may be, for two or thri?e months, broiiuht ihere and put In that position by a statement of one of Her Majesty's Min- isters, on a provision placed in a contract, and with a tremendous deposit to be for- feited if the contract is not carried out that the road will be ready. Is it or Is It not ■■' Let him reckon with that public opinion outraged In that way, with practi- cal men taking it for granted that it is true and having their hopes disappointed, theii- liealth and their prospects interfered with because it is not as it ought to be. Yes, and let him reckon with his own con- science. But to return. Sir. The Minister of the Interior knew from Sir William Van Home that Mr. Hamilton Smith, backed by a syndicate of capitalists, wanted to tender for the building of that road. He does not deny it, he cannot deny it. He knew -th.'it before the '2~>Vh December, he does not deny it. he cannot deny it. If he had looked upon himself as a trustee of the people would he not have grasped at the information that a body of capitalists head- ed l>y Air. Hamilton Smith, wished to have an opportunity to tender or to bargain for the building of that road ? Why, what were the anxious days ami nights of the Ministers ? You heard it graphically de- scribed by that master of language, of much language and little knowledge, the Minis- ter' of Railways and Canals. A man can always describe his experience more graphi- callv' than something that is at a distance and that he does not know well. We heard him attempting to describe the route, to describe the gold fields, to describe even the terms of the contract, where the Minister Avas a know-nothing. But when he came to describe in pathetic words how he and his colleagues, and a committee of his colleagues, and in fact all his colleagues togetlier. went down on bended knees and pleaded with Mann & Mackenzie, say- ing : O, Mann & Mackenzie, make It a little less than 25,000 acres of land, behold, these stern and hardened wretches, without any bowels of compassion or mercy, looked all the Ministers In the face and said : No, gentlemen, -^ve are not fresh enough for that, it is 2.5,000 or it is nothing— how graphically that was des- ci'ilH'd. But how easily my hon. friend could have been taken out of his misery by a simple expedient, Just to nave said to Mann & Mackenzie, these hard and ob- durate wretches : Well, If you don't do It for less than 25,000 acres, we will just call In Hamilton Smith or some other man who will do it fo- less. Sir, Mann Ac Mac- kenzie would hiive been brought to their marrow-bones Inside of an hour, and my hon. friend's genutlexlons, tjnd the pltwus and tearful pleadings of this aggregated ministerial phalanx, with one after another marching up to J)lead with Mann & Mac- kenzie, would all iiave been sparee worse, that for other reason best known to himself, he did not apprise his colleagues In the Cabinet that such a pronositlon had been made to him and take conference with tho.se colleagues on the matter. Anyway it is plain enough that Sir AVilliam Van Home knew it and that Sir William gave his information to the Minister of the Interior ; that the Min- ister of the Interior knew, and the Minister of the Interior dellbera+ely kept his knowl- edge to himself and signed the Mackenzie & Maun contract, and refused xo let other par- ties have a chance of offering to build the railway. , ' ^, . The Minister of the Interloi- has something else for which to answer. He has officially issued "The Klondike Official Guide" in French and English, the publishing being given to Dan Rose & Company, Toronto, for a consideration, and the hon. gentleman has published editions of 500,000 copies and scattered them over every e. There is in that guide book a state- ment made by the Minister himself under ' his authority, and it is thus the statement i of the Interior Department and of the Gov- i ernment. What does the hon. gentleman ' say ? since the following page^ were written the Cauarllari Gnvernmeut has coiiiplflterl arrange- ments which will dnrlng the coming seaion, What do people uuderstaud by '' >? words "coming ssasoii ?" That seaaon " he year whou people go Into the Klondike for pros- pecting and for work, and the months in which tliey have to work. remove the great dlfflcultlea which have here- tofore stood In tbo way of travel and transport to the Yukon district. The route to bo opened is by steamer from Victoria or Vancouver to Wrangel, thence by the Stlklno River to Tele- graph Creek, thence overland 150 nitle.'j to Tealln Lake, thence down Tcslln Lake, the Hootallu- qua, Lewes and Yukon rivers to Dawson City. Large steamers run the year round to the mouth of the Stlklne River. Suppose they did. Sui)po8e they ran there in November, December. .lanunry. February, Mardi and April, what use was that except as a lure to tlic foreign travelling public V The vessel might go to the Stlklne. and the searelier after wealth might leave the vessel tliere, but he could not in the face of natural obstacles enter the Yukon by that route during seven months in the year. From that point a sleigh road to Toslin Lake will be open for travel, with stopping places every twenty-live miles, on the 10th of March. That Is the contract with the travelling public of the world bound for the Yukon. Persons going in can thus reach Teslln Lake ■and make their preparations to go down from that point by water when the Ice sous out, whioii is usually about May 15. While those who wisli to prospect in the south-eastern part of the Yukon district may find it to their advantage to | go by one of the overland routes, the great bulk I of the travel to Dawson City and its neighbour i hood will find an easy route by way of the \ Stikino and Teslln Lake. I River steamers will ply all summer from the i mouth of the StiUine to Telegraph Creek. A wag"n road with al)undance of transportation facilities will be available from Te'egraph Creek to Tealin Creek, and steamers will be plying on this lake to the Hootaiinqua, Lewes and Yu- kon rivers. On the first day of September a railway will bw in operation from Telegraph Creek to Teslln Lake. That is the point I desire to come to. The hon. Minister of the Interior has advertised to the world that a wagon road will be available from the mouth of the Stlklne to Tesliu Lake. When first asked about it he gave the Impression to the House that the wagon road would be completed and the Government M'ould see it was completed. When he was told that it did not appear in tiie contract and was questioned a little more closely, the hon. gentleman stated the other day to the House that the Govern- ment were not responsible for that wagon road and did not propose to build it. What right hare the Government of Canada to publish to the world, as one part of a con- tract to the travelling public, that there would be a wagon road there, unless either I by their own appropriation or work, or by I contract with sume responsible party they I made certain their word would be Imple- 1 meuted by deeds ? They have not done so. The Minister of the Interior confessed I they luul not trade any preparations, and I asserted that Ihe (Jovernment were not i-e- sponslble fo- building the road. If the i (lovernment were not responsible, this an- ! I'.ouncement should not have been made I In the oftidal ^ulde book. There is not a member in this House who will contravene j that statement. 'I'hoii tliere Is the sidelight of misrepro- ' sentation. Thnt Is a strong word to use, i l)Ut It is true. Hon. gentlemen, warned : liy tl>olr bitter experience of 1891, e.arller i aiid later, ^vauted to catch on to a cry which tney thought would be iwpular, and wlilcli ihey had nsiscn to think would be popular ' in th's country, and therefote they adver- tised tliesc ir>(! miles of tramway as the all- Canadian route. Europeans read this offi- cial jruido book, and said : Ho ! for the Klon- dike ; there Is an all-Canadian route, which { will be readv on 1st September, a wagon I i-oad and sleigh road supplying the facilities up to that time. Men in England and in different parts of tlie world, men in Au^^ra- i lia and mining countries, read this auno.'ue- I nieiit and said : Why, there Is to be an all- 1 Canadian route to the Klondike. Now, I what does this Canadian route consist of ? I It consists of 150 miles of poor tramway, 1 commencing somewliere in the mountains 1 and ending nowhere. But Avhen you ap- proacli these wily men they say : Well, this statement is true ; the first of the loO miles commences in Canadian territory and the last of the 150 miles ends in Canadian terri- tory, and therefore it is an all-Canadian roiite. You might as well go up to the con- fluence of the Lewes witli the Polly River and build a road from Rink Rapids on to Dawson City and put tiiat down as an all- Canadian route, all tlirough Canadian terri- tory. This all-Canadian route covered by the contract now before the House covers simply 150 miles of tramway out of a total distance of 1.500 miles from Vancouver to Dawson City ; yet up to this day hon. gentlemen opposite are tiying to secure support for this contract by appealing to the sympathies and susceptibilities of the people in favour of j!n all-Canadian route. Hon. gentlemen opposite also published to the world the statement, that this was the route, and the only route, that could be chosen. Why ? Because, they said, it was free from all international complications and lifflculties. The Minister of Railways and the Jllnister of the Interior made that the chief point in their advocacy of the scheme. Thev told us : We take this route, not Pyramid Harbour, not the Chilkoot Pass, not the White Pass, but we take this route simply because there are no international complications. And yet, what has happened? In the course of a few days' debate, not only 10 have they themselves gone back on that position, but the Prime Minister had to rise in this House and acknowledge, that there were grave intjraational complications. Ami what was the .itatemenr. of the right hon. the leader of the Government ? " Yes," he said, " there is legislation threatened by the American Senate, but there is a treaty, and the treaty gives us the right of free naviga- tion. Go on, \cte the land, vote the con- tract, build the 150 miles of railroad, set your great all-Canadian route into operation, and, if they interfere with us at Wrangel, we have a supremr and instant remedy." And what was his remedy V To appeal to the courts of the United States to quash an enactment of their own Cougrpss. That is the learned, that is the invaluable, tliav is the wise remedy proposed by our right, hon. Premier. Was ever such a humiliating posi- tion taken by any man in the Government of Canada as is taken by t;.3 right hon. feentle- man V Now, Mr. Speaker, these side-lights tlirowu upon the operations antecedent to the giving of this contract, and thrown upon this contract, and upon the methods of the Government, are what predispose me, and '^very cool and careful r -iii in this country, against this contract and against this scheme. Le us go now to the discussion of the scheme itself. This Yukon policy is only one more blunder added to successive blun- ders of the Government and of the party whicii supports the Government. I wish I could say it was the last i)iunder of the Government. It is the latest blunder, bur I cannot hope that it is the last blunder that this party and Government will make, it is only in tiie line of sequence. Tliese iion. gentlemen blundered, when, as a pariy, they were in Opposition long years before the.y came into power. Ou the trade question they blundered. In 1878. as a party, they took strong and radical ground against pro- tection; thej fought tlie principle of jn'otec- tion up until ISO'), and tlien. Sir, they proved their own blunder by adopting tlie principle of proieetion and putting it upon the statute- books of tills country. They, as a party, fougiit the Canadian Pacific Kailway, tooth and nail ; they liave ended liy embr.icing tlie Canadian Paoltle Kailway, by gobliling up as many of its fat positions as tiiey pos- sibly could, and byutllrmlng day and night, in their action and in tlieir statements, tliat the construction of tlie Canadian Pacific Railway is the very basis of the present prosperity and the future progress of tliis great north-western coimtry of ours. Tliey blundered for j -ars, and they aclcnowledge the blunder now by the clianged aspect In which they view die Canadian Paclhc Kail- way. The right hon. the leader hinis-elf made the same trouble upon the tislierics question, when in 1880 and 1888, and along in that period, we were endeavouring to si and by the fisliery rigiits of this country in respect to the Treaty of 1818. What was the position of the leader of the Liberal party then? It was one of carping criticism,, one of fault-flmiing at the severity and bar- barity, as he oal'ed it, of the execntijn of the laws and the maintenance of tJie rights ■ of Canada. The statement that he then made at St. Thomas was so bald and so pointed, tliat his own party paper, the To- ronto " Globe," was .'bliged, on the 2»th August, 1888, to call him to task in these words : How far is it possible to go In conciliation ? The raere contluuance of privileges granted to ' American tisliermen by thei modus vivendi will not satisfy the Wasliington claim that the prl- vliego of traii.iUipment in bond should be freely accorded to American fish* cargoes. We fall to see liow thai, privilege can be permanently ac- , (ordcd i;ratis by Caniida. To yield It aud what : would logically and inevitably have to be given wiUi it would be to rnalte wasto paper of the convention of 181S, and practically to surrender our inshore fisheries ff r nothing at all. Till Mr. Laurler disposes of the argumeut by which ' v.e yesterday maintained this opinion we must with all deference and good vvill to him main- tain that the lisheries policy of Canada has not : been unfriendly to the States. Could tliere be any exigency greater than to call forth from a faithful party paper this roliiil-;e to the cliief of the part.\ because of ills unpatriotic stand in reference to the Treaty of 1818 " Wliat applies to 'lie right lion, gentleman, applies as well to the pre- sent Minister of Marine and Fisheries •. the one quotation points the argument jigaiust tliem all. The right hon. gentleman (Sir Wilfrid Laurier) made a mistake, when he made i.oston the centre of his political war- Care, aud when, on one memorable oc(;asion, he stood before the Inhabitants of a hostile country In many respects, and said, that Great Bric'an had been inhuman and severe in the way in which she treated her American cousins during the civil war ; declaring be- fore all of tliem in Boston, that Great Bri- tain had made a mistake ; declaring before the face of a hostile country in many re- spects, that he must say, a Canadian before everytiiing else, tliat if it came to be the best for Canada tiiat th(> ways should part be- tween ("anada and Great Britiiin, he -/(iuld stand by Canada, tliat he preferred at any time to talie, as lie expressed It, fiie Vanijee dollai' to the English shilling. These mis- fakes cuimluated after 18!)(J, In that famous Interview in the Clilcago " Kecord," where lie tlirew the Treaty of 1818— establisiied as linn as the granite rock of the mountains is established— when he threw the tisii(>ry dls- fute in Behring Sea— in which we were as ciea.'ly within our rights as could possibly bo demonstrated— when he threw them both in with a lot of other trifling questions, and (ieclared to the United States, that he was (julte '' 'iling, for the sake of peace and amity. ,^ wipe off the wh'>le slate, l)ondlng privileges included. Sir, it is tnese blunders that hon. gen- ! tlemen made when tliey were in Opposition 1 and since they have got into power, which I 11 arping criticism, , everity and bai'- ne execiui,)ii of ice of tJie I'igbts ir tliat be tben so bald and so ■ paper, tbe To- ed, on tbe 2yth task in these ~> In conciliation ? /lieges granted to lodus Vivendi will aim that the prl- 1 should be freely •goes. We fall to } perraanenily ac- yield It and what have to be given asto paper ot the caliy to surrender hing at all. Till rguraeut by which ofinion we must vill to him nmln- Df Canada has not ' greater than to party paper this jart.v beeaase of efereuce to the (lies to 'he rigbt well to the jne- :i Fisheries •. tiie rgument agauist gentleman (f>ir listake, when he lis political war- iiorable oc(;asion, lints of a hostile and sail), that iinan and severe ted her American r ; declaring be- that Great Bri- (leclaring before trj' in many re- Canadlan before me to be tlie best should part be- ritaiu, he -/onkl [(referred at any 5(1 it, tlie VaJikee ing. Tliese mis- i, in that famous ' Eecord," where S— establislted as the mountains is ■ the tisli(>ry dis- tiich ■we were as IS could possibly threw them both ig questions, and tes, that he was e of peace and le slate, Ixtndlng ; that hon. gen- ere in Opposition ito power, which •are but followed now by these later ad- ministrative blunders, the latest and worst of which is this one of the Mann-Mackenzie deal. As we expected, so it has turned out. Now, w^at was there in this question to face V Simply as to what was the best commercial route. 1 take leave to reiterate , to a certain extent, and maybe to amplify ' in some particulars, the excellent argument made by the hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver! in his speecli m this House f< ir or tive days ago— the only speeeli on tliat side of the House which has lieen addressed to tli<» ))usinoss Jispect of the (piestion, and which has not been answered or attempted to be answered by any gentleman on tliat side, but has been pe.-yistently evaded. I say that in looking into this question of opening up the Yukon country, the question was simply one of providing transport faci- lities, so that the greatest trade for Canada could be secured ; and the pbicing of tlie line of transport as far renlo^ ?d from in- ternational complications as possible. These were the essence of what was to be con- sidered, and with reference to which a con- clnsion was to be reached. In the first place, was the (luestion rightly ap{froached by the Ministry ? They have made the plea of urgency ; they have made the plea of haste— for what they themselves have acknowledged to be undue haste in this matter. I disagree in toto with the argument atteiupted to be made by tlie Minister of the Interior. 1 say that n'eitlier he nor any other hon. gentleman on that, side of the House has made out a sufficient plea of urgency in this matter, or has been able to defend the Government from the ciiarge of negligence in the early pare of these transactions. I am not goin.i;- into the details ; they have been gone into by otlier lion, gentlemen, wlio liave suc- cessfully proved where this negligence took place. ' Tlie plea of the hon. Minister of the Interior was that lie had no knowledge. That plea cannot stand before the facts of the case. That lion, genileman was ot)- liged to answer a question which was piU to liim a little later, as to when Mr. Ogil- vie's reports came into the possession of his ilepiirfnent. Kirst, he declared that they liad no knowledge, and afterwards he admitted tliat one or two of these rei)orts had lieen given out to one or two meml)t>rs aliout .July. Wliere were tliose reports. Sir V Tlie first report of ^Fr. Ogilvie, of September Oth, lS9(i. came to his depart- ment on O'-tolier 10th, 1Si)(i : the second, of August 18th. 180»>, reached his department on October 22nd. 1896 ; tlie third, ot Novem- ber (Uli. 1890. arrived on February ItJth, 1897; the next, of December 9th. 1897. was received on February 27th. 1897 ; the next, of .lami- ary 11th. 1897. on M.arch Kith, 1897 : and the last one. of January 2.Srd, 1.S97. on the same day. March Ifith, "1897, On the Kith dav of March, 1897, then the hon. gen- tleman had under his hands the whole of tlie information which his own ofHcer had transmitted to Lim by report, and the essence of that information was that large and rich and repeated gold finds were being brought to light in that country, that there was intense excitement there, and that there was no doubt tliat theie would be a great influx of people into tlie country the mo- ment the news reached the outside world. >'j^,, every man knows what mining fevers are. Any man who is conversant with the mining history of the world knows that the very annovincement of rich gold finds in i'.ny (piarter of the glolie will bring a rushing troop of adventurous seekers for ric-lies from every part of the globe— and now more than ever, when the means of transportation and the means of telegraphic communication spread tlie news and bring the seekers for wealth from every portion of 'the globe in an astonishingly short space of time. What more ? 1S9(), the hon. In the October session of member for Queliec AVest (Mr. Dobell) passed through this House an appropriation of .liti.ttOO. on the request of the lion, member for Victoria (Mr. Prior), •or tlie exploration and investigation of the Stikine River and the Taku Inlet routes leading over the mountains to the water liasins on the other side. That appropria- tion was got iiy this (Jovernment in Octo- ber, 189<), and a discussion upon it took place in this House ; yet, so far as I know, not one single move was made with that money in hand to carry out the object for which it was approiiriiited-to get the information wiiich the House at that time wanted it to get. The Minister of Rail- ways and Canals (Mr. Blair) himself as has been already pointed out, s;iid that be- fire the House rose last year the Ministers had this (inestion forced upon their at- ttmtion. Why, Sir, before we left tliis House last year the papers were bringing HOWS of tremendous liiids in the Yukon country : and the first of that band of ad- veiuurers wlm h;id spent the winter of ]Hi)i\ ill those regions were coming out and spreading over the whole world the news of the rich finds wliich they had made, Willi all this information, Hlie fact that ilic Minister of the Interior, specially cliar.ged with that subject, should sit down and practically do notliing until the 2.">th th day of October. Of all the time he took jsjiniilv nne mtmth to do tlie pngineering investigation. Mr. St. Cyr, who was ordered to explore the Hootallnqua River and Tesllu 12 Lake, got on the ground on the l-lth of October, and iu thirteen days, or on the 27th of October, he had llnlshed his sur- vey. What does that mean V It moau!i that it took these eughieers less than a month to gather all the information which the Government needed both as to the rail- way and as to the rivers at both ends of the railway. Why were they not sent out iu July '.' Why were they not sent out iu Augiist V If it took them bin a month, one of them, and but thirteen days, the other, M-ha.t reason in die wide world was there why a Government, with all the necessary means and Information at its disposal, should not have had these engi- I'eers out there in July, and had their information back here in August ? There is no reason in the M'orld. Nay, more, If Mr. St. Cyr finished his work on the 27th October, as he did, who is to blame if that report did not get into the xMinister's hands until the (Jth Januarj-, 1S97 ? Was there any reason why that report— not an abstruse or voluminous one— should not have been in the Minister's hands within three weeks, at least, after it was oompleted, which would have been the midi'lo or lalter part of November. There is uo reason ; it was simply stupid negligence— negli- gence which cannot be condoned. That negligence was shown, in the flrst place, by the Government not sending engineers out long before they did, and in the next place by their not obtaining a report before the (jih of January, when the work of the engineers v*as finished on the 27th of Oc- tober. Therefore the charge of gross iiud inexcusable negligence lies at the door 'y give Mackenzie & Mann over the gold lands of the Yukon, What incited these hon. gen- tlemen to do that ? They have confessed their own cowardice froni their o vn mouths. I'hey v.cre afraiii, after their long years in Opposition of protesting economy— tliey were afraid after their exiierience in trying ro pass through the Drummoml deal, which has a capitulization of .'};7.00().000. they were afraid after they had passed through the Crow's Nest transac'tion which cost us ."i!2,0()0.000 more tliaii was necessary, they were afraid, after having made the largest expenditure on current account ever made in this country— and so their courage suddenly oozed out, and they themselves allegeil that they did not dare ask the people for one million or two million dollars to open tij) the great Yukon. So they adopted a subterfu.ge, as unwm-thy as it' has proved costly, and proposed to deceive i!ie people v,-ith the statement that this was not going to cost tliem anything, and at' the same tluK? give away nine-lenths of the eligible gold lands in the Yuk..u. Sir, this countrv has never yet proved itself indisposed to' bear public burdens for ii great public good, wiien once it has been placed fairly' and well before it. The history of the last twenty years bears that out. To open up the Yukon country to the men of Canada as well as the pcMpple of other countries, this country would not have found fault witli l!u' (ioveriiiiu-nt for iiromising a vote of .$2,()(K).CK)o or even more, and have thus kept our lieritnge, 1 want to make this statement just as strongly as I can make it, that this idan of handing over the placer and gold mining I'egions of the country to » perpetual monopoly is a thing unheard "of iu the annala of Anglo-Saxon govin-nment, ' Basing their first action upon the history of the mining W'jvM. these gentlemen, on the 18th January, Iironuilgated their latest regulations, which ;: thrilled that the placer mining of that coun- try should be kept for the individual miner, tliat every man with a mining license had a right to enter and prospect and take up land wherever he found it, to a certain ex- tent, with tile exceptions of town sites. Yet seven days afterwards, they went back on the salutary history of all mining countries. th(>y went back upon tlieir own reasoued-ont .iudgment. as embodied in their resnl.ntSons and made a blanket of .S.'Iifl.OOir.qcres of picken„ld have had arrangements com- Dleted before this contract was given so tnat courteous and amicable treatment on both sides would have been assured on the Pa- li (ic Coast. But. instead of taking a single. stop in that direction, they dilly-dallied, they i made no overtures, they made no arrange- ments. The first thing they did was /o throw defiance to the people of the United i States by saying : We will prevent roads '. built across your territory from connecting I with the Yukon, we will build by the route Ithat we choose, and we will prevent the i United States trade from going into that i^Tt*^ Is'' right that any Government should i seek to take the most of the trade and keep it for our people. But they were unfortunate in not making their arrangement with the United States Government before they tlirew i out that challenge, when, as I ^ei-'l^ |^f '^''^„«' thev could have had this arranged in an '■ aniicnl)le and friendly way. and without any trouble on this score. But. Sir, here we are, and we have now to look at ihis scheme insi as it l.s. threatened with international romplicatioiis greater tliere than at any ether point on the Pacific Coast, with oiir right to navigate undoubted, a right which, 1 am glad to know, tiie right hon. gentleman pro- noses to maintain, as we on this side ot the House propose to lielp him to mainTam. but a riglit which, at the same time, is surroun.l- od by certain complications for which niy hon "friend himself can only find a remedy in the tedious and futile process of an ap- peal to a court of the United States, and the Minister of the Interior in a five or six years' course of negotiations and arbitra- tion with the United States. What, then. Is the position we are forced to? We are forced to this position, that, according to the statement of the First Minister himself, we are asked to-day to dec de upon an incomplete proposition, which they admit is Incomplete-they propose to add something to it, and they do not tell us what they propose to add ; anrt so thev ask us to vote a partial scheme through at immense expense instead of bringing down their whole proposition as a remedy under the present set of circum- stances, and placing it in its entirety before What^do we get now ? We get, after all said and done, simply l-'.O miles of tramway, .•ommenclng ir.O miles from the coast at Wrangol, ending some 000 or 700 miles this side of Dawson, which, for seven montlis in tlie voar, is perfectly useless, and for five montlis in the year lias tedious and expen- sive navigation on each side of it. witn.tne inevltaliie shifts, and transfers, and changes iu wliatever vou carry into or out of tliat coutitrv. You have that, Sir, and, in addi- tion tlip complications that are threatened hv actual and impending legislation in the United States Congress, and which, however we may hope for the better, we yet fear will be put through. This tramway, by the eileulation of Mr. Tennlngs himself, will cost about three million dollars. That Is what we get. Now, what do we give ? I think the House has, to a cer- s 15 ly-dallled, they le no arrange- y did was to 'of the United prevent roads om connecting d by the route 11 prevent the oing into that rnment should rade and keep jre unfortunate ment with the fore they threw [ verily believe, irranged in an nd without any ir, here we are, at ihis scheme h international liin at auy ether with our right ht whicli, 1 am gentleman pio- this side of the maintain, but me, is surround- for which niy T find a remedy ocess of an ap- ted States, and in a five or six ns and arbitra- What, then, is 1 to ? We are that, according First Minister i-day to decide losition, which !— they propose and they do »se to add ; and partial scheme mse instead of proposition as a set of circum- s entirety before We get, after all liles of tramway, )m the coast at or 700 miles this seven months iu ess. and for Ave [llous and expeu- le of it, witn.the fers, and changes o or out of tliat ^ir, and, iu addi- it are threatened legislation in the d which, however •• we yet fear will ramway, l^y the IKS himself; will n~ dollars. That 1^, what do we h.ns. to a cer- tain extent lost sight of oni of the iran- chises that we give to those contractors, that is the profits on the operation ol the road itself. I propose to make a calcula- tion which I will present to mis Hou>^e and invite criticism upon it. ^^■e have been unable to get the Government to ^ay what are the maximum tolls they are going to al- low on that road for passengers and freight; but we have this statement ef the Mmister of the Interior, that they will be high, very ranch higher than on any railroads which rre known iu this country at the pre- sent time. Now, T say it is necessary, to a proper iudsxment upon this question, thnt we should have the maximum of the toll and of the freights. Then, you take power to make two reductions of 25 per cent each in seven years, and when ^en years have passed, you are to bring them under the operation of the geuer.nl railway law. That carries out the proposilion that tliey are to be high, very much higher than any railroad tolls and freights that are known. Now, if these tolls are to be at a certain amount, and the travel is to be what lion, gentlemen have estimated, the franchise ot that road is a most valuable consideration in itself. Let me ask the attention of the House for a moment. I have taken the tolls at the rate of 10 cents ptr mile for a passen- ger, that is. $15 over the 150 miles. 1 have taken the calculation made by the Minister himself as to the cost ot the tonnage of freight, at .$50 per ton. Now, how does that work out ? For 150 miles of road, taking their OAvn calculation and Mr. Jennings's calculation of the cost, the contractors will expend $2,700,000 of caplcal to build it. On the basis that 20,000 passengers and 20,000 tons of freight go into.that country in a sea- son, that is, going in and coming out, on that calculation, the earnings of the road, after you have taken out $00,000 as the estimated cost of working, Avill give a profit of $700,- 000. Now, is that to be laughed at ? The MINTSTIOIl OF RATLAVAYS AND CANALS (Mr. Blair). How many trains do you allow a day ? Mr. FOSTER. T am not going into the de- tails. The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. How can you tell what it will cost to run, unless you do that ? Mr. FOSTER. 1 take the engineer's esti- mate, and I add $10,000 to it ; and I have not heard from the Minister of Railways, and 1)0 has no report of an engineer to sliow that it Avill cost more than that to run it for five months in the year; and, until he nial'-.'s a statement, either on his own ,'iuthorlty or of that of his engineers, I will have to 1 l would onnie out: Will the 'non. Minister deny that sncli was his proposi- tion ? 16 The MINISTER OF RAILM'AVS AND CAXALy. I did not give any estimate of the number of people who -will use that i railwaj', I I Mr. FOSTER. Hon. members know tliut ' the hou. Minister did not seem to be very | well informed or very accurate. On the I assumption that 50,000 people will go In i and out. that is 25,000 in and L'5,000 out, i and the hon. gentleman mentioned that no i one had made a lower estimate of the num- • ber than 50.000, certain calculations may ' be r.iade. Those are the hon. gentleman's ! figures as reported in " Hansard." Assum- ■ Ing 50,000 people will go in and out and 50,000 tons of freight will go in and out— and the hon. gentleman has admitted that the tonnage must go that way— what profits would accrue from that trafflo, after taking out the running expenses ? There would remain $8,100,000 as net profit. If lOf),- 000 people go in and out, 50,000 each wav, or 75,000 in and 25.000 out, and you calcu- late one ton of fi-eight for each person, and that is a small allowance, for the quantity will be found to be nearer three tons thaia one ton for each person ■ Some hou. MEMBERS. Oh, oh. Mr. FOSTER. Hon. gentlemen opposite I may smile or laugh at these figures as they j please, but let them tell the House the ; tolls they are going to charge. ! Mr. DOMVILLE. They are charging $5(W now as tolls at Stikine, and the man walks. Mr. FOSTER. Let the Government in- form the House as to what tolls they are going to charge on passengers and freight. If the rate is to be 10 cents or 8 cents or 5 cents, let us know it. Let them state what freight tolls they are going to allow Mackenzie & Mann to charge. We are handicapped for lack of this knowledge ; but if the tolls are to be anything like tliose I have nameii, the contractors avIii, In three years, be able to repay every dollar expend- ed out of the profits of the road, and have millions of surplus for themselves. But we give them even more than what I have stated. The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Mr. Field- ing). Why not incorporate that mine of wealth '.' The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND i ^^i"- FOSTER. The hon. gentleman is CANAI>S. No. • ; always inclined to take a thrifty view. Mr. FOSTER. Suppose you take one ton of freight for each person and estimate that 100,000 persons go in, the profits, after taking out the working expenses, would show ,$(i.OOO,(K)0 in a single season. The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. What percentage of the re- caipts is the hon. gentleman taking out for worlilng expense ? Mr. FOSTER. .iioOO.OOO. The :MINISTIi:R OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. How do you get at that sum ? Mr. FOSTER. Will the hon. Minister of Railways say that a railway operated fcir five months and carrying 100,000 peoi)le and freight, will cost more than half a million dollars to operate durfhg that time ? The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND CANALS. I never ran a railway up there. Mr. FOSTER. I want the hon. gentle- man, from a business point of view, to take up that calculation and tell me wherein it is extravagant. Are hon. gentlemen go- ing to place an .average rate for carrying passengers per mile at 10 cents and freight at 2} cents per pound ? If th^y are going to adopt such rates, then my estimates, tak- ing the passengers and freight as named, give the result I have stated. So in three ! years of successful operation these gentle-: men will pay for the whole of the railwav and lay up $4,000,000 or !i;5,000,000, un- ; doubtedly, of profits. | i The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE. Are these Mr. Hamilton Smith's lig>u-es '.' Mr. FOSTER. No doubt' he would en- dorse them. I am not, however, in the habit of submitting figures handed to me by some other person, though the hon. gen- tleman may be in the habit of doing so. These contractors also obtain bonding powers, and they are ' empowered to issue mortgages, debentures or stock on all their properties aud undertakings. The Gov- ernment give the contractors a five-year monopoly of the road to the north, with the opportunity of building bv the route over the Chilkat Pass if they wish, and they give the contractors a preference clause as regards the southern extension, which means that if such an extension is built Government aid will be given, and Govern- ment aid must be given to that portion of the road. In addition, tlioy give the contractors a grant which will actually cover over 4,0(>'),000 acres of the mineral lands in the Yukon. It is an immense franchise Avhich these contractors are given —and for what ? For simply building 150 miles of tramway, beginning 150 miles from the ocean and ending G50 miles from Daw- son City. The Minister of the Interior alleged that the country would obtain some other bene- fits from the road. He contends that the building of this road is necessary for the preservation of law and order. nowever, 1 find I am entering on a new and what will be the last phase of my subject, and 17 oh. nen opposite ,urcs as they ! House the hargiug $5(X) i man walks. rernment In- )lls they are auil freight, or 8 cents b them state ng to allow !. We are knowledge ; ig like tliose vill, in three liar expend- d. and have es. But we hat I have 3 (Mr. Fleld- lat mine of entleman is view. AND COM- Iton Smlth'9 would en- ver. in the ided to me le hon. geu- f doing so. n bonding ed to issue on all their The Gov- a five-year aorth, with tlie route h, and they e clause as on, which on is built nd Govern- lat portion y give the II actually he mineral Q immense s are given uilding 150 miles from from Daw- lleged that Dther bene- Is that the ry for the ZLq'wqyqv. and what bject, and I will be pleased if Mr. Speaker will now call It six o'clock. It being Six o'clock, the Speaker left the Ohair. After Recess. Mr. FOSTER. Mr. Speaker, when the House rose at six o'clock I was going on to state, what it was that the Govern- ment got out of this arrangement, how much It would cost In the way of outlay of capital to the conti-actors, the franchises and subsidies which the contractors were to got from the Government, and I think the eontr.ist is a suttlciently striking and significant one. We get 150 miles of moun- tain tramway, beginning somewhere in the hills 150 miles or so from the mouth of the StlkiUC River q,t a point which is totally In- accessible during the winter season, and which is accessible only by dilllcult and tedious navigation for five or five and a half months in the year. This railway ends 150 miles further on, somewhere near the head of Teslin Lake which is 600 or 700 miles away from Dawson City or the centre of the Yukon country, and which distance has to be traversed in small boats by a tortuous line of navigation Involving possible portages and transhipments, and certainly taking up a great length of time in the round trip on account of the speed and strength of the currents by which those boats will be met on the return. This tram- way is practically all that the contractors give to the Government. Under Mr. Jen- nings's report and his statement as to the cost of the road, the outlay of capital neces- sary to build that tramway is in the neigh- bourhood of three million dollars, in round figures. I was going on to state that we give the company the road and Its possible profits, and I took the statements which were made by the Ministers, and took what I considered a fair good average, on the information given by the Minister of the Interior as to the rates of tolls and carriage of freight, and I calculated the profits on the Incoming and outgoing, first, of twenty thou- sand iK'ople and their freight, second, of fifty thousand people and their freight, and third, of one hundred thousand people and their freight. I submit these calculations to both sides of the House and to the intelligent public, as it is impossible for us to get from the Government the knowledge which Is ab- solutely necessary to this Parliament before it can come to any fair conclusion as to viiether the grant we are giving Is an Inordi- nate and unreasonable one or is not. As the Government refuses to give us that In- formation, I have assumed these railway lates, and I have made my calculation upon them. I state without fear of contradiction, that von can make a very lar^e rediict.ion on +uese rates, and even on that basis you must come to the conclusion, that If this road !s patronized at all as the promoters, and Hon G E F— 2 the Government suppose It will be, then the company stands to make in two or three years of Its operation, not only the original cost of the road, but all Its charges of operation as well as a very handsome re- turn of minions of dollars on their invest- ment. I was also stating, Six, that the con- tractors are not called upon to put their hands in their pockets to build that road ; the Government has looked after that. On all this wide basis of a rich franchise, they have given the contractors the power of raising as much money as they wish ; yes, Sir, many times as much money as Is needed, by bonds and mortgages which they can put rpon their property and which they can raise upon the mileage of this road. And, Sir, with that franchise, with the reports that have gone broadcast as regards the richness of that territory, with the Inevitable and openly patent spirit of speculation which is showing Itself In all parts of the world in regard to this gold country, and the rush (as the records of the Department of the interior will show) for mining franchises : 1 assert that that franchise alone placed upon the London market, or any other great money market, will give, in a small moiety of It, more than sufficient returns for these men to pay for all their outlay and leave them a large surplus of funds for future operations or for division amongst them- selves. I added, that beside that, they had a monopoly which renders these territories tolerably safe and certain to them, a mono- poly of five years on the north, or what is equally as good an option to build a road from Pyramid Harbour on to llink Rapids towai'ds Dawson City, giving them what is the real commercial route, and a ten years' preference of building a railway on the southern extension, witt the inevitable Government aid which the right hon. gentle- man who leads the House has declared Parliament would be asked for, if this road be extended. That Is what the company gets. It gets bes'des this, charter powers of a very wide extent and of very great Importance, viz., the power to build branch lines from all Its possessions to the principal railways, the power to do almost all busi- nesses under the sun, and what is of no slight account in a country where timber will be almost next in value to gold— the timber can be used and Is to be used for nothing else, comparatively speaking, than for the operations and needs of the miners themselves— these contractors get the best timbered lands In that district, which tim- ber they can sell out to the miners at very profitable rates. Although the mfner may h.ave the opportunity of going on Govern- ment lands and taking from them such tim- ber as he chooses for his operations, yet he cannot touch a stick of timber on the lands of Mann & Maokenzie ; that timber be!on«»s to these gentlemen and they will keep it as a source of profit, as they are perfectly en- titled to do. 18 Now I am aware that the Ministers said, Tre get more than that. What is it ? The Ministers have declared to the country and to the House, that we get what is absolute y necessary to guarantee law and order in that community. I take absolute exception to that statement. I ask my hon. friends opposite what they expect in the way of difficulties in keeping law and pinier n the Yukon district. Into that district will pour a large number of people from the settled portions of Canada, law-abiding and orderly people every one of them, who will be. next to the mounted policemen so far as keeping law and order is concerned, the right arm of everything that is right and proper to be carried out. There are going into that country hundreds and thousands of young Englishmen of character and o£ force, and 1 every Englishman who goes there is an , upholder of English law and order by] natu'-e, and by custom, and by practice, and i by his own self interest as well. From the Australian colonies are coming adventurers trained In mining who understand what law and order means to themselves in Australia, and who will carry the same respect for law | ana order Into the Yukon territory. And of those who come from the United States- more in this than perhaps in any previous great excitement— a better class of men are forming themselves into syndicates of ten, and t\/enty, and thirty to go to that coun- try. Are they going to flght law and order and the representatives of that justice which alone can give them security in their pos- I questioned the Ministry not long ago, and they said that In that country or on the way to It there were 270 mounted policemen. I asked the Government to-day how many of the militia or the permanent force they are going to send in there, and I had the answer, 200 men. What in the name of heaven do we need with four or five hun- dred mounted police and military to keep order among the people going into that country ? I ask the right hon. gentleman one question. He has been urging us to vote this measure through for the sake of keeping law and order In the Yukon coun- try. I ask him, is one of those 270 mounted policemen going to stay out cf that country until Mann & Mackenzie's road is com- pleted ; or are they going in now, and will they continue to go in so as to get there on the first of July, or as soon thereafter as possible ? I ask the right hon. gentleman if one of those 200 men of the permanent force, which he is going to send in as a right arm to the mounted police is going to wait until Mann & Mackenzie get the road completed, and go In after the first of Sep- tember ? He would not dare to take the risk of such a contingency. No ; those men are to be sent in at once, and before Mann & Mackenzie strike one blow on that road the 270 mounted policemen and the 200 of the permanent force will be in the Yukon, or far on their way thither, and they will be quite eufflclent to keep l»,w and order in that country. It Is a false Pretense to put before this country that we must go It blind and put this work through during the com- ing summer for the purpose of keeping law and order In the Yukon district. Now, when do you want to keep law and order in tne Yukon district ? In the summer season 7 Measurably so. In the winter season? Measurably so. Let us be sensible. In the summer season where are the 50,000 men who are In the country ? Scattered over the country, in twos or threes or fives or sixes. These people will keep their own law and order. They are there not to light against the civil power; they are there to search out the riches of the country for themselves, and they know that their best protection is that they shall be the observers of the law. In the winter season what are' you going to do ? Are the 50,000 people who are going in next summer going to camp there next winter ; to live in that delightfully torrid season in the northern part of the Yukon district, for the simple pleasure of living ! There will be two classes among that 50,000 ; the class of prospectors who this year will have struck something and will have something to work upon— they will be working on their claims next winter ; and the class who will have struck nothing, and who either do not have to work or do not want to work on their claims, and will not care to have the pleasure of remaining In the Yukon country during the winter. He will find that next fall these will be on their way out to civilization on the coaBt. And in the winter season where will be the men who remain in the country ? How many points have vou there in which the men can con- gregate ? I believe one or two. or three points at the most. Do you mean to say that f lur hundred mounted police and militia are not sufficient to keep law and order at Dawson City and the one or two other places in the country ? It is a pretense that is blown away at the very first attempt you make to analyse it, that we perforce are to vote this thing, or law or order will be placed In Jeopardy. Again, I ask the right hon. gentleman, is he gomg to wait until we get that road built on the first of September next before he sends in the police and his permanent force of infantry ? If not, he does not want the road for that purpose. I will put another question. Is he going to ' send in with the men themselves, or by other means, the suppli^ they will require next winter, or Is he going to keep them back until Mann & Mackenzie get thR road com- pleted ? He does not dare to say that he will leave the men who will go there as guar- dians of the peace, dependent for thein food and supplies for next winter upon the con- tingency that Mann & Mackenzie tt'II g*t that road built by the first of September, or in sufficient time thereafter to send the food and supplies over it. No, Sir ; the men 19 win take tbelr food and supplies In them- selves, or have them sent in by the routes that will be available during the coming summer. They will not depend upon the contingency of this road being completed in time. If they did, they might find them- selves in a bad box if Maun & Maclcenzie failed to Unish the road in time. Then, we were appealed to ou humanitar- ian grounds. Our susceptibilities as to suf- fering were harrowed up, and we were told that it was absolutely necessary to carry through this secret contract and get it into operation— to do what ? To save people from the pangs of starvation in the Yukon country. Starvation during what period of the year ? Starvation this spring, next sum- mer or next fall ? No, because by this road not a pound of food will go in under the best of circumstances before the 1st of September ; and up to that time, what- ever food is necessary will be takeu in by other and well-known routes. So that, so far as staving oft" star- vation during this summer season is con- cerned, that road is of no more use than would be a road iu the north of Siberia. Have the Government undertaken to keep people from starvation in that country from next autumn on ? If so, they have under- taken a contract which they had no business to undertake, which this country never authorized, and I think will not authorize them to undertake. By what right have this Parliament, as the representatives of the taxpayers of this country, to say to the world, to adventurers and aliens from every clime : " Rush in ; never mind your provi- sions ; we will see that you shall not starve when you get there." Lay that down as an axiom in the conduct of the Government of this country, and where would you bo ? No <4overunient dare lay down sucli a policy. These hon. gentlemen have gone far towards laying down that policy in this case ; and if next winter men are found in that country with insufficient supplies, the guilt will lie at the doors of hon. gentlemen opposite, who advertised iu their queer way to the world at large that they would build a line of railway into that country to prevent starvation next winter. But I take the more common-sense view, and I hazard the assertion that you may go to Dyoa or to the Stikine or to the wharfs of Victoria and Vancouver, and you will find that nineteen out of every twenty of the men who are going into that country are going there with the determination either to come out next autumn, or, if not, with a sufiiclent supply of pi-ovlsions in their possession for one and n luilf nr two years. The tales of starvation and the dangers of starvation which have been heralded through the press of this country, and the press of every other country, have awakened every adventurer *r(if? tuat nor til tllTTl 11 who turns his face clime, to the fact that ho must insure him- self against the danger of starvation. The re- 1 suit is that nineteen out of every twenty men who are going in, with these examples be- fore their eyes, with the constant admoni- tion to take in plenty of supplies, \/ith the admonition of Commissioner Walsh that they must have at least a year's provisions with them, will go in well supplied with provisions ; and what they lack the trading and supply companies which are operating in tiie country by the dozen, will see that tliey have provisions to sell when the starv- ing time comes and the i)eople have to buy. Now. I think I have thoroughly exploded the idea that owing to the fear of starvation we have to put our hands into the treasure- house of this country and denude it of its greatest value for the purpose of keeping the people in that country from starvation. But they say : Oh, we want to save the trade for Canada. Let us examine that from ;i eoininon-Hense point of view. There are two things the Government are trading on. rhev are, first, trading on the ciT of " An nil-Canadian route," which is a pure pretense so far as this contract is concerned, iiud are trying to get the country to stand by them on this pretext. An ostrich innv stick its head in a heap of sand and think it will thereby escape the attacks of its enemies, but so long as its huge posterior hulk is found to obtrude, its enemies are siu-e to tind it out. This ostrich Govern- ment sticks its head in a mass of moss ;ind snow. l.")0 miles from the mouth of the Stikine Kiver. and cries out that this rail- way of LTO miles, on a route which is more than 1,500 miles in total extent, is an all-Canadian route. This is an ostrich \w\\cy, which the criticism of its opponents will soon make very short work of. Save the trade for Canada ? I have said there are two things which these hon. gen- tlonien are trading on. One is the all-Cana- .lifin cry, and the other is that they are patriotically determined to preserve the trade of Canada for Canadians. Let us examine their scherne and bring to bear on It a little common sense. I ask this question of the right hon. leader of the Government ; Will the building or not building of the Tes- lin Lalve Railway, 150 miles in length, save one ounce or vary one pound of the Yukon trade for this year ? Every man who proposes to go there this season, has either started on his way or has made all the preparations to get there. He has purchased his supplies, whether he has purchased them here or In any other country. And, so far as Ihe 20,000 or." 30,000 or 50,000 people who are going into that country to prospect for minerals this year is concerned, not one pound of the supplies they will take will be in the least I degree influenced by the building of that 150 1 miles of road drring this summer. Well, if I the building of that road will aot vary the i trade of the Klondike one ounce, or a pound, this season, let us go beyond that into the wider question and test what this Yukon Railway scheme, as propounded by this 30 Governn»ent-for we must take It exactly as It 18 before us to-day— amounts to. i uere may be prophecleB aud promises as to some- thing else that is to come, but we know no- thing about that. This Parliament Is deal- ing now with the simple Teslln Lake route and the contract which we are asked to pass upon. Let us ask what its effect will be on My hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Ollvei) dlsoussod this question of supp ylng the "reat l>ulk of products which will go into The Yukon district, from an Intensely prac- tical point of view, and much better than i can state it ; but I propose to make another statement of fact. In order that it may be taken into oouslderatlon, If possible, even >t us ask what its effect wui oe on um... '"aer attention by h6n. gentlemen tfade. lion, gentlemen 0Pl>"«lt«Xn hLeUm tbo^otSsfde W^ speak of the whit more eager that Owi la shall have on the otner u . ^j^ ^j^^ ^rade of ?^^?LrtVarr Bu? hr'gfnSer<;i I Sna^'lmo.that district, .n.alnst _competi- thls side, or the 'other side, might Just as well come down to plain matters of fact and look Into the question outside of anything else but the hard facts of the case. I propose to discuss briefly tills question of the Canadian trade, and I make bold to say. thls.-and I say It before I bring my proof. In order that it may catch the attention of 1"; '"„-a"+he medium hon. gentlemen opposite who may think t^m ; them as ^«ie mea^ ^ tfon from other quarters, there are three things to take Into account. In the first place, you have to distinguish between what you raav call the simple distribution of sup- plies what you may call the production of these supplies. It is a good thing, if the dis- tributors or handlers of goods can get out of the Yukon trade a profit that comes to of transmission, I am extravagant In my statement— that ir hon. gentlemen opposite bad searched the whole line of coa.st to the Interior, they could n(»t have selected a more disadvantageous route for the carrying of heavy provisions than this half-and-half scheme of the TesUn Lake 150-mlle tramway business, with Its at- tendant water stretches on either side. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE. As the hon. gentleman's leader says so well. Mr. FOSTER. My hon. friend has given utterance to one of his wise remarks. He will now. as in the past, find that ray hon. leader is quite able to take care of himself aud the Minister of Trade and Commerce to boot. He will also find, if he wishes to look into the matter, that there is not very much difference between my opinion and the opinion of my hon. friend who sits beside me. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND COM- MERCE. Hear, hear. Mr. FOSTER. And If' there be a differ- ence, it la that difference of opinion which every man on this side claims a right to have in looking at these questions from his point of view. Mr. LANDERKIN. There are no misgiv- ings. Mr. FOSTER. My hon. friend had to whether these goods are the products of their own country or simply handled in transhipment from another country. Every distributor being a medium for the passage of these products from the source of production to the place of consumption gets bis profit upon It, and these profits are distributed to a large f^tent In the cities and towns in which these dis- tributors live. So that, if nothing of this were produced in Canada, if a large pro- portion of It were handled by distributors in Victoria. Vancouver aud other towns, the trade would be worth looking- after, and could be profitably done in this coun- try But every hon. gentleman knows that that is not the important point. When we talk of having the trade of the Yukon for Canada, we mean that we want to liave the productions of Canada on^umed in the Yukon. We want our own men to handle The goods also. f hen we have the double advantage of profits on production and handling as well. But every business man knows that as between the two. ihe profit that comes to Canada from sending in pro- ducts of our own country are far greater than those which we get from the distribution 0? a stoiiar quantity of products o other countries. When you come down to tn.it So nt you have three things to think of -first the cost of production ; second the cost of t^nsport. ^d. third, the Incidence of customs duties. I think I am right waen Mr. FOSTER. My hon. friend had to oi c"«^"'"» ""^^'^•, ■ ^r.^ ^^on member for Al- apologlze the other night, and he will find ! I "^y- »f, ^ o,Ue^/was rTghTwhen he said th'at.quletness Is the best policy for ^ome | ^^-f ,£%? ^^^U oVw^^^^^ will be taken nto the country as It fills up will be pro- l^Sons of different kinds A mining camp is proverbially lavish and almost was efuL Man for man, the workers In a mining camp will consume two or three times as mu™h as labourers in other classes of labour. So that a great feature In the supply of a SinSg cl4 is in .provlBlons^^ Jhese you TLea.'dl'^dTnd^tho^e^^^^^^^^ in on foot. Now, as to the cost of pro- people, under certain circumstances. What I want to state is this, and I state It again, because the facetious remark of my hon. friend quite overcame me for the time being. I was looking Into the matter of the trade of Canada to be obtained by the opening up of the Yukon district, and I said that hon. gen- tlemen opposite would find It difficult to discover a line of transport which would labour under greater disabilities in the car- rying of heavy freight than this scheme which Is submitted to us. 21 ductlon. 1 take it that I am not uttering a hearsay when I state that in Washing- ton, Oregon, on the Pacific Coast of the United States you can produce these staple provisions at as little cost as you can pro- duce them in Manitoba or the North-wost. I am not going into a laboured argument on that point. I will aimply take It for granted that the cost of production of meats of all kinds and provisions of all kinds Is as great on the plains near Calgary or fur- ther east, as oa the fertile stretches of Washington and Oregon. Let us see, theu. how we stand for the securing of this trade by the Stlkine route in competition with the producers in Oregon and Washington. Call It unpatriotic If you like ; say that we are not sounding the praises of our own country, but business, as an eminent author- ity on the other side says, la business, and we have to look at facts as well as to study sentiment. Takinj; the cost of production as equal in our North-west on one side and in Washington and Oregon on the other, what are the difficulties, if any, in the way of our competing with them ? You have to take your provisions and cattle from the North-west on this side of the Rocky Mountains, and transport them for six hundred to a thousand miles down to the sea^board. You have to take them up by a vessel to the mouth of the Stikine River ; you have to transfer them there to smaller vessels and take them up the Stlkine River. And then you transfer to the tramway and take them over that road a distance of 150 miles. You must here make another change and take them by ^ boat down Teslin Lake and Hootalinqua , River until you get them to Dawson City. | Count up the cost of that method of trans- ! port. Theu take the cities of Oregon and W.ashiuaton. where production is equally cheap and there you have a route less In mileage and less expensive, because it is by water entirely, until you reach the port where you leave them to be re-embarked for Inland transportation. Will anybody tell me , that you are going to give the producers of meats and provisions in Canada a fair chance to secure that trade of the Yukon under these circumstances V I do not be- lieve you are. The question has come up whether British Columbia Is a producer of surplus agricultural products. Every- body knows that she is not. I hope tae time will come when she will be. She has rich lands and a very good selection of them, but we are dealing with facts ns they are, and the facts that British Co- lumbia has to Import a large proportion of her food products, and she Imports them from the United States and from the west- ern part of the North-west Territories. If this supply of food for the Yukon is to oonie from Canada, then it must come from this side of the Rocky Mountains. That brings tip the question whether it Is possible for competition to take place with regard to these things, competition which will bring a large quantity of Cana- dian products Into the Yukon district for consumption there. Then, take the next large item of trade In the Yukon. A great deal of machinery and tools will be needed, also furniture and tlmt sort of thing. Now, machiuerv la heavy and furniture Is fairly bulky. Applying the same line of argu- ment", and you can easily see that It la a question whether you would be able to .ompete with the United States In these articles, and whether things of that bulky kind will go over that road along the Tes- lin Lake and over this railway, or seek some wav where there are not so many transhipments or where the coat will not be so great. The MINISTER OF' MARINE AND FISHERIES (Sir liouis Davies). Hear, hear. Mr. FOSTER. My hon. friend (Sir IjOuIs Davifs) says •' hear, hear." I am glad the • arjiiimeut is siuklug into his mind. I thought that after much reiteration I should bring my hon. friend to say " hear, hear. The MINISTER OF MARINE AND FISHERIES. It sounds like an argument from a Tacoma paper. Mr FOSTER. I could not ask for any- thing more apt to Illustrate my argument than this ejaculation of my hon. friend. Defeated in argument, with the facts of the case against him. his last resource la simply to ring the patriotic bell, to de- clare • Wiiy this man who is talking to vou reflects the Ideas of a Tacoma newa- TviDor My hon. friend is welcome to that trick • he has used it before and he can use it a"ain. It will never stop an argument, from a business point of view, so far as I am concerned. Besides the articles I have named, you have clothing and the like of that. It ma be p(/ssible for east- ern Canada to compete, even by the coast route. In this line of goods. That is a niiestlon which I will not take up. I deal sliuplv with the principal Items, provisions and machinery, tools, furniture and such like. So I say one of the most im- : ixn-tant things that this Government and 1 Parliament has to take into consideration ! before thev put any permanent route into ! operation Is what route will really give ■ to Canada the business of producing the \ goods that will be needed In the Yukon ' trfidG ' Is it this ? If it is, let us put it through ; jf It ;s not, don't let us put It through. Let us make whatever transport Is necessary on the Pacific slope to-day, temporary, but sufficient for the time being. Let us wait for time and knowledge until we gather what Is i sufficient, and are able to come to a perman- ent conclusion, for the best interests of Oan- 1 - j„ _j.g ij,yr;|Trpfi I ji fhip,. Will hOD. gentlemen i thlnk'of one thing V Have you heard of any quarrel botween Canadians and outside sup- pliers with relation to these people and parties th.ii are going In by the Edmonton route ? Where do these men outfit for their provisions ? Nine-tenths of It is done In Canadian territory. The route set- tles the question. Where else would they }iet their provisions and their meats ? They pass right through the Bonrce of supply, and they take their line for the Yukon out of tlie very centre of the source of supply. The question solves Itself, and that adds additional interest to this discussion as to where shall be the route Into which Canada shall put Its hard earned money, but Its well spent money If the result of spending it is to be a permanent arrangement towards increasing the markets of this country. Let me tell hon. gentlemen opposite that they have no greater opportunity to provide a market for the agriculturists of this country and the North-west In particular, than is opened up to them to-day in the Yukon district. If It Is a country of the rich pro- mise that their otflclals say It is. If It bears out one-tenth of the promise which to-day It holds forth to the public of Canada and to the world, there will be a centre of con- sumption which will be better for that great North-west In the supply of provisions than any foreign market that you can go Into by preferential trade or reciprocity which discriminates, or any other plan that you might wish to propose. It is the very mar- ket that the people need, the very market which Providence seems to be opening up at the very doors of the district of Alberta and that section of country, far removed from the seaboard to the east, and far re- moved from the seaboard to the west, and consequently under the disadvantage of long hauls and expensive freight charges. I earnestly ask hon. members on both sides of the House not to be stampeded by a flurry, and not to put the Inestimable wealth of Canada into the building of a 150-uille tramway until we are certain from Investi- gation, and calm discussion and deliberation, that we are getting a route which will do for the productions of Canada that which we all wish to have done. Now, Canada has one great advantage. What is it? She has the advantage of the Impost of the duties. That Is an advantage which will counteract to a certain extent the cost of transport and distance from the field. But you can count upon that only to a very small extent if you bring into the route such costliness of transport as tends to more than compen- sate the advantage that Is given to you by the Impost of the duties upon the articles that go in. Now let me go on to another point. Ac- cording to the Ministers themselvei? t, iisi will either be no difficulty practice'" -^ v^'th the United States of America on tt ,i ^. v*. :. rxrt fv,f>.,fk Tvill he dlfHcultv. I take tli; '. h'^ .?u'J ground, that If there Is to be dlffifi;l.y at Wrangel, there will be difficulty at Dyea, and Pyramid Harbour, and on the Yukon Ulver Just the same. There will be no difficulty at Wrangel. If the good will of the Unltetl States is secured and manifested to us ; and If she is dispose*! to manifest good will to us there, she Is equally dlHposed to manifest It to us oq the Yukon River, and at Dyea, at other ports along that coast. There cannot be any doubt as to the sound- ness of that position. What say hon. gen- tlemen opposite ? They say that they have had unfailing courtesy shown them at Wash- ington, and good relations with the Govern- ment of the United States heretofore, and they expect that these will continue. Is the Minister of Customs here to-night ? I ask him a question. To-day, In your arrange- ments with the United States, have you a basis of satisfactory operations on the Yukon River, and at Dyea, and at Skagway? What is the answer of the Minister of Cus- toms V The answer that he gave us a month ago, that there Is now In operation, and so far as we know will continue in operation, an arrangement at these two men- tioned ports and on the rtver, which allows the free Interchange and passage of goods under a customs arrangement which is not burdensome, and which is mutually satisfac- tory. Now, what I say Is this : If the Uni- ted States proposes to squeeze Canada at Wrangel, she will squeeze Canada on general principles at Dyea, and on the Yukon River as well. If she does not do it on these, she will not do it at Wrangel ; and despite all that has been said in the United States Senate and elsewhere, I am not yet going to lose hope that the United States, in Its executive government, will so model and carry out things that in the end, although It may take some little time, we will have a modus vlvendl which will be agreeable to both countries. Why not, Sir? The United States of America on that Yukon stretch has more to gain than to lose by having these amicable arrangements. Take the 141st meridian and run north. When you get a little north of Dawson City you have the United States territory of the Yu- kon. Will any one say that it is not liable to be as rich In gold as the Canadian side ? It Is just as liable, and if finds of gold are made in that United States portion of the Yukon along the 14l8t meridian, the Unit' •' States would be just as glad as we would be to have an arrangement by which tho," could take their goods in bond across Intervening territory, and take them by rail way at all seasons of the year, and so deliver them to the centres of consump- tion in that cotintry. Now, I believe this general proposition to be true ; if the United States proposes to squeeze Canada they will do it in these other portions jupii the same as at Wrangel. If it gives .ilities at Wrangel, it will give facilities jisewhere jii«t the same. Under these cir- cumstances let us look at this route as compared with other routes. Suppose that 23 the United StateH gives us fac-lltleH all along that coast. Now. take your Sllklne route, with this hybrid arraugeiuent that you have, and compare It with the road which nilKht be built from I'yramld Harbour along the Dalton trail down to the Uluk IlapUlH, and HO get Into deep water communication for the summer, with Dawson City, and the not dlllUnilt communicatlou in winter, Hotue 225 nilk'S. Place your merchant on nie wharf at Vancouver and give him a choice of routes. He has piled around him every- thing that he wishes to export, flour, beef, pork and all kinds of provisions, heavy machinery, light machinery, tools, mechani- cal appliances, bedding, furniture and a that like. Ask him which route he will take— take lh(; route via the Stlklne, the TesllJi T.ake, the Hootallnqua, and the licwes Rive- dowr to Dawson, with Us mixed navi- gation and land carriage, with Its costly sys- tem of tr usport, a transport made costly by transhipments necessitated by the small hizi> of the vessels which must Inevitably do the transportation on the river stretches, both In the Stlklne and In Teslln Lake and In the Hootallnqua ; ask him whether ho win send by that route, or whether >'■*; would send by a route, If it were open, by which be could take his goods up the Lynn Canal, hand them over to a railway at Pyramid Harbour, put them through on the railway to lUnk Rapids In a day, get them from within 225 miles of Dawson City by an uninterrupted line of good water communi- cation In the summer, and by fair stretches of snow road, or by railroad, in the winter. Should there be one moment's hesitation as to what route should be taken-the one nn expensive route, a tedious route. Involving both time and delay and great expense; and the other a speedy route. Involving the least charge for transhipment and for load- ing and unloading, and open every day In the year, while the other will be shut up for seven months In the year ? That Is a business proposition. Let us ask ourselves, which route should be adopted. If the Min- ister of Railways were here, If the Minister of the Interior were here, I would ask the hon. gentleman whether It was true or was not true, that Mackenzie & Mann themselves wanted, as a commercial project, to build the railway by the Chllkat Pass, and were wedded to that route. If the Minister were here, he would be obliged, If he answered, to say that was true ; the Ministers know it is true. Mackenzie & Mann had been over * that route— It was their pet route. There they saw the most speedy means of com- munication, there they saw the least Inter- ruption and change, there they saw the best methods of transportation both for the carrier and for the person whose goods ■were transported. As a commercial route, that was the line they favoured. As a com- mprpifll line, it was the route which every business man would adopt, one open the whole year round, and consequently giving fommuuicatlou between the sources of sup- ply and eommunlcation every day in tne year, iind not shut up tor seven months, iluring which pc.ple could not enter the country with supplies of any heavy kind or in large (luautlty. Hupposo the United Stales acts fairly oi does not act fairly by us-let tliem take whichever course they please— the same oD- structlous would be met at Wrangel as at Lynn Ciinal and on the Yukon Ulyer, no more nnd no less, for we would be -leP^^nil otit ultimately on the good will of the United States as to arrangeni. nrs they would make with us. Stand by your reaty rights as tlrmly as you please, say tliat the treaty means un- tra'nu'lled frecidom so far as we are concern- od the United Slates Is at liberty to say that the treaty means something else so far as they are concerned ; and there Is no way or coming to a conclusion except by long diplo- matic correspondence and probably tlie deci- sion of a tribunal In the end. When the mat- ter was settled and the United States came to the conclusion to treat us on a fair «i»« an)lcable basis, there would be no obstacle in cither case. On either of the assumptions, the Stlklne Hlver route so far as I am able to lock into it. will not commercially compare with other routes which may be opened up ultimately from other ports on the coast i am not going to elaborate this point ; I have a down the outlines, and every business man In this House can work out the calcu- lations and details for him -self. Hon. gen- tlemen opposite state that this is an all- Canadian route. I dealt with that before the dinner hour, and 1 do not propose to say anything more particularly In relation to It, onlv I again desire to bring to the attention of the House and the country, that the Can- adian route passes through a strip of United States territory. On the Lynn Canal route, vou come to territory which is Indisputably ours, by the terms of the treaty, as we In- terpret them, but which the United States may claim, as they Interpret the treaty. But the chances there are In our favour. The chances respecting the Stlklne route are not In our favour and, inevitably, there is United States territory which we shall have to pass through. The territorial line has to be passed, and a length of 15U miles of tedious and somewhat Intricate navigation In summer has to be passed, and In winter a chaos of snow and Ice, impas- sible for the passage of man, let alone of freight, whether heavy or light. Sir. I am told that we are estopped from asking the Government to consider the pro- positions which h.ave since been made, even though they save the country one-half of the cost this secret bargain entails on it. Will the leader of the Government take that position, or will he say here to-night, that under the circumstances we are stewards and trustees for the people, and if we can get this route, or as good route, or t«o routes, built for one-half the cost to the coun- 24 try this bargain will entail on It, that for the salie of the country Parliament, which hus the undoubted right to pass In free- dom on this subject, may reject or modi- fy this contract as it pleases, has nothing else to do than save the country's resour- ces and secure the buildinj? of the iroposed railway for a smaller sum of money V Will the hon. gentleman controvert that proposi- tion 't My right hon. friend is esto,)ped from controverting it. My right hon. friend spoke with respect to the Canadian Pacific Kail- way contract, and in his speech he made a statement which I thinli it worth while to place on the " Hansard " of this House. It was as follows :— It is stated that the offer is not seriously made, that it is a political dodge got up by the Opposltiou. Mr. Speaker, it the Opposition have organized this scheme they will have still an- other claim to the gratitude of the country, for whatever may have been ttie motives that in- duced these capitalists to make the Government this new offer, these motives are of little con- quence, provided that we obtain the result, and the result isi that the new company now offers more advantageous terms than those we have now before us. It is stated that the offer is not serious. But there is a very siraple means of ascertaining tte fact, and that is to put these capitalists to the test. They are ready to deposit the money and give all the security the Government may require. I fling the words of the right hon. gentleman before him to-night. I l^ell him he has an offer under his hands from capitalists of undoubt- ed ability, to build this road for 1,(X)0,000 acres, instead of 4.000,000 acres and over, and to build this road and the Pyramid Har- bour route and Dalton trail route, to boot, both of them, for little less than one- half of the land subsidy to be given to Mac- kenzie & Mann for building 150 miles of tramway. Will the hon. gentleman try to crawl out of accepting that offer because " it is a political dodge got up by the Oppo- sition ?" Let him take his own words, which I quote to him, where he says, " If the Opposition have organized this scheme, they will have still another claim to the gratitude of the country, because they will have got the work carried out at a saving of cost to the country." Does the right hon. gentleman take the ground, that Mr. Hamil- ton Smith and his associates are not respon- sible men and able to build the road ? I quote his words to him : " Put these capi- talists to the test." That is what he said before ; but put them to to the test, not by a private telegram, the answer to which the right hon. gentleman made public, by a telegram which he himself promised to lay before the House, when he knew as well as he knows to-night the nature of the tele- gram, for he himself sent it, and which, the next day, he refused to give to the House, thereby doing gross Injustice to a gentleman whom he should have treated as a geuile- man, and degrading the dignity and standing of a Minister of the Crown in this Par!'iam..^nt. Let the hon. gentleman, in- stead of sending winding and tortuous tele- grams that he dare not produce to the House, let him put the matter to the test and tele- graph London to know v»'hether Hamilton Smith and his associates arc men of means and men of worth, able to put this contract through, and I vouch he will get an answer that will set that matter at rest. What will the Prime Minister do ? Will he eat his words as he has eaten them time after time ; eat his words until his bad faith is becoming a byword in this country ? What pledge of public policy has he made that he has not gone back on ? And even a pledge that he makes across the floor of this House, know- ing well every condition of it, when he wakes' up the next day he comes in and re- pudiates and says, that though he breaks his word he will keep his honour in his own charge. Sir, I have one word more to say and though I may reiterate something I have said before, I shall put on record once more my protest against alienating the rich allu- vial placer grounds of the Yukon to any two men, or to any monopoly of men In this country. I want to affirm that, that Is the heritage of the common people of this coun- try and should be kept for the common peo- ple. By the common people I mean the peo- ple of worth and substance In the rural dis- tricts, our artisans In the towns, all that class of men who though they have not large capital have the hearts and the brawn which makes Canada strong and gives her a guarantee of the future. I put on recoi'd my protest against this departure from the settled principle of every Anglo-Saxon min- ing country in the world, as well as an out- rage upon the rights of this country, if these gentlemen opposite succeed in putting this through and setting their monopolists at work, the harvest that will be reaped will be a harvest full of soriow and of retribu- tion to them. Mr. GIBSON. Oh. Mr. FOSTER. The hon. gentlemen laugn ; irresponsible men are noted for laughing, ir- responsible men have nothing but a sneer or a laugh, but the right hon. gentleman who leads this Government does not laugh just now. On his shoulders rest two weights. One is the dignity and interests of the country which he sometimes forgets, but which we call to his mind, and the other is that long strejim ol; pap-hunters and patronage-seekers in his own party which renders every hour of his life a bitterness and which is ageing him fast as he sits in this House. I leave the hon. member for Lincoln to put himself in whichever of .hese classes he pleases ; but the man who sneers and laughs when his country's best and richest portion le given away to contractors, Is a man who can feel very little of the responsibilities of the situation. 25 I repeat, that we should not give away this heritage to monopolists. Do these gen- tlemen opposite think It is profitable for I he country ? Take your official guide book of the Klondike, discount the promises reveal- ed In that by 50 per cent, give this monopoly to Messrs. Mann & Mackenzie, let them blanket four million acres of picked gold fioUlc, anil see how that is going to work out from the financial point of view. Sup- pose that in the next three or four years, out of that four million acres of picked land Mann & Mackenzie work 5,000 claims, and suppose that if it had not been given to Mann & Mackenzie five thousand pros- pectors would have taken these claims and workod theui. How does that stand with reference to the revenues of this country ? Mann & Mackenzie will work these 5,000 claims, Ave will say, for the sake of argu- ment, five men to the claim. They will work them every year with these 25,000 men, nnd not a man of these pays his $10 a year for a miner's license, or liis $15 fee for the entry of his claim. If these claims were worked by 25,000 free miners, they would pay a fee of $10 each per year, milking $250,000, and all that is lost to the country by reason of this monopoly. They would p.ny $15 entrance fee for each claim, aking $75,000 to be added to the loss. Sup- pose Ihey worked out $5,000,000 of gold, they would pay 10 per cent of a royalty, hut Mann & Mackenzie only nine-tenths of that sum, and so you have to add another .$450,000 as a loss because of this monopoly. That makes $775,000 loss to tlie revenues of the country on these five thousand claims that would be worked by Mann & Mackenzie. The aiinister of Trade find Commerce laughs. He no doubt think? that this Is imaginary, but I have based it on the published statements of his Government and I take it they are worthy of credence. 1 look upon that as a promising land, and I say that out of 4,000,000 acres of picked gold fields. It is not extravagant to say th.it in a few years Mann & Mackenzie will liavo 5,0(X) claims Avorking, and they are very great fools if they do not have four Hon G E F— 3 times five thousand. That is how this huge grant works with regard to the revenues of this country, and the hon. member for Al- berta (Mr. Oliver) showed hoAV It works as regards the trade of the country. Look at It in whatever light you please, It is an extravagant arrangement, and we nre doing our duty In protesting against It so long as we have the power. Though the mechani- cal majority may be whipped into line and may vote for it ; numbers of them not wish- ing to do so, numbers of them praying that they might be relieved from doing so ; the time will come when In the country hon. gentlemen opposite will meet with the judg- ment of that tribunal, before which we as members of Parliament have each to go and before Avhich we have to give an ac- count of our trust. Now, Sir, I have finished what I have to say. If I may be allowed to offer a bit of advice, I would say that the Ministry had better now stop for a moment, take stock of the situation, and see what is the best thing to do under the circumstances. My own opinion is, that something like this would be best : go to work under the pre- sent conditions now that the urgency is past for the present year "se your means of hav- ing inveatigaticii as to all the diflferent routes possible Into that country, go slowly, go only to the extent of putting what Is ne- cessary as a ^agon road, across that Btlk- ine passage i." you please, and a Avagon road from EdmoLton north, and leave in abeyance that weightier qvestion on the conclusion of Avhich the future of Canada so greatly depends. Leave it to a time when you can have sufficient information gather- ed, and when you juan come to a fair con- clusion as to whe^e^he permanent roadway should be ; and then place Canada's contri- bution toAvards opening up that country for Canadian people and Canadian trade cheer- fully on that roadway, and keep for Canada the great benefits that are likely to ac- crue from the rich blessings In the shape of gold lands that Providence has given us la the great north.