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Addinj,' lo that the $l,0(>i>,000 received from the sale of lands in Manitoba and the North- Wei«tt, ^ives us a surplus for Ihat year of over $8,000,000. Sir, it has been said, and it will bo said no doubt during this dihci.ssion, that the expenditure for the fiscal year 1882-83 being $1,663,054 in excess of ihd prov mis year, it is an evidence of extravagance on Iho pan of the Administration. In order lo lucet that charge I desire to state the items composing that additional expenditure, and then I will leave the House to decide whether the Government, because they are responsible primarily as submitting the Estimates to Parliament, are oj^en to the charge of extravagant expen- diture during that year. The S!>1,663,U51 of increase may be i-tated as follows, these being the principal items. Sinking fund, 853,412. That is simply, as every hon. member knows, a redemption of the debt to that extent over and above the previous year. Subsidies to Provinces, $75,673. Thut we know is a payment made under statute, which requires that every tenth year tho subsidies to ti.e smaller Provinces be increased until they reach 80 cents per head of tho population, on 400,000 each, and the additional concession made to Mani- toba as well. Legislation (election expenses") $158,568. That amount was required for expenses connected with the General Elections. No objection can there- fore be made to that item. Postal service, $195,522. When I state to the House that the increased receipts were $2ia,000 it will bo evident that there has been no increased taxation with respect to that item. Kailways and canals working expenses, $371,364. When 1 state to ttie House that tho increased income during that year from those public works was $3irinciplo to apply, and cBi)ecially to tho conduct of a Govornraont. No Govern- ment would bo justified in taking ono particular year of thoii* expenditure and presenting that to the countiy as an ovi denco of their economy; neither would it bo fair for an Opposition to tako a particular year, in which perhaps tho expenditure was largo, owing to circumhtuuces over which tho Government had no ccmtrol, or if they had control, cijcumtstances under which they felt it desir- able to make increased expenditure in tho interests of tho country — I say it would not bo fair that flUL'h a year should bo specially selected. Thereforo, in all discussions on this subject, I desire to taiio tho averages as well as tho expenditures in pai ticular years, as ovidenco of our economy or of our extravagance. Now, Sir, wo find that lust year, deducting tho suLphis, tho taxation per head of our poj)ulation from Custora-s and Excise, and theso are tho only heads of taxation, was $4.8-^^ as against an average of S4.8S per head from 1874 to 1879. Wo also iind that taking tho average fioni 1879 to 18S3 it amounted to $4.81 jter head, against an oxpouditure from 187 f to 1879 of $4.88 per h^;ad. Under thooo circumbtaneea it will bo found that while it is true that tho rocoipis have been large, while it is true that during last year our surplus lias been large, tho amount which was necofisary to pay the expenditures oi the country and afford all the appropria- tions necessary for public works, and every other expen- diture, the taxation on the people of tho counJry was less than the avoiago from 1874 to 1879. Now, Sir," it may be interobtiug to tho House to know under what heads tho increase of income took place. Tho incrouse in Customs was §1,428,012; Excise, $375,257; Post Office and Money Orders, S:i 12,503 ; Public Works, including Railways, $390,004 ; increased interest received $87, 181. The increase in the Customs may be slated under the following heads : Eailway carriages, lumber, manufacture of, and coal, $520,000. 1 may say, that a largo portion of the duty paid on railway carriag03 and locomotives was upon railway car. ri.'iiros and locomotivos imported by tho (Vinadian Pacific Riilway Comp:uiy,\vlu) roquiiod thoni cnrlior timn tlioy coiiUI bo mado in ibis count ry. Our tnamittictnrors of locomotivon wore HO fully occiip!(Ml at that time tbalovon IboGovcrnmoiit biid to H(Mid abioa 1 in order to ^ot tlie nupply necoshary for the incroaned tr.iffio on tho railway, and locomotiveH had to l)c imported to moot pros-iinf^ demand-'. On bi'andy, j^in, rum, wbi^koy and wines, tho increase wuh 8230,0110; on fruits atui HUi^ar, %ll'i,^Of) ; on lacjcs, bof-iory, jewellery, $71,000; wbeat Hour, ^IC.OIO; macbincry, 8150,000; pi^' iron, $28,000; iclasswaro, $54,000. Th<^ ineivaHo of HxcIho revenue wflH mainly on tho article of Hpiiits; and tbe decrease on tobacco was about covered by tbe incroaHo of revenue received on malt. That was before the decrease of 8 eent(» per pound of [• xeiso took place in the article of tobacco. ThcKO arc tbe items with rofcrcnco to the operations of tho last year. I desire tiwW to call tho attention of tbe LTouso to the eslimateil income and expenditure for the present year. This is an amended estimate made from our oxperionco down to tho present date. Tho esti- mate of Customs for tho current yenr wiis $21,500,000. Tho amended estimate is $20,250,000. Now, Sir, it may bo a^hcd by the House, what has occurred to pro- duce this reduction ? I may state in answer to that ques- tion that the imports of last year wore 5?5,0{)0,000 in ex- cess of tho estimate and the revenue from Customs $1,000,000 in excess of the estimate. I am satisfied, and it is now well understood, that tho imports of the last year were greater than was wananted by the demands and by tho consump- tion. We are now feeling the effect of that over-importa- tion, because there is a corresponding reduction in the revenue received fiom Customs as the result. Then, there is another cause. Since this time twelve months, a large portion of tho imports into Canada have decreased in value. As those hon. members who are engaged in business know perfectly well, many of tho articles imported have fallen in value, owing to the increaf>ed stock in hand in the United States and in the old country. I know of one article, which was formerly sold for $9, but which is now sold for $f).75 ; and so with many other articles. There- fore, the over-importation cf $5,000,000 last year, and the fall in the valuo of imports this year, have resulted in a reduction in the total imports down to tho present time; and, estimating that tho next four months will yield one- half of the revenue that has been received from Customs in tho past eicjbt months, I place tho estimated income for tho current year at tho following figures: — OuHtomrt «••••••• .»•..••>' •■ f20,2AO,00O Exciio 6,^60,000 Post OfHce l,S0o,0(»O Pulillo Work^, including railway*, 3,000,000 Interest on inve,tineuta 8oo,00t) Oilier Bourcei 800,000 TotHlincomo $32,200,0co Tho nmonded CHtimftiod oxpondituro is $31,200,000. Tho eHtimuto nmdo ih\i* limo twolvo montlis placed tho oxpou- dituro at 831,010,000; but wo huvo hud to oxpitid u vtM-y conBidorubloHumon public workH — lor tho coinplolioii of tho public buildin/,'rt in Manitoba, on tho harbour oj Toronto, and on workn in various othor parts of tho Dominion whore workH woto ui)Holuloly ticceafiury, and tl)o sum voted was not found Hufliciont— bo that tho oxpondituro under thai head has been increased; and thoreforo I e.stimalo that the total expenditure this your will amount to tho Hum named, leaving a surplus of consolidated revenue of 81,000,000. I ostimato that tho proceeds from public landg in the NorthWost will amount to another 81,000,000, making' tho total surplm for this year $2,000,000. It may be said by hon. gontle- men opposite that this is a great falling off from tho s.rplus of $8,000,000 last year; but it will bo remembered that this time twolvo months 1 estimated the suiplus from consoli- dated revenue for the current year at 82,250,000, my present estimate being $1,250,000 loss. Weil, let us see, Sir, what circumstances have led to that reduction. In tho first place, the expenditure has boon increased, while tho receipts have been reduced. Why is there such a groat differenco in the surpluses of tho two years— 88,01)0,000 in the one case, and $2,000,000 in tbo othor ? Simply because, Isaving that surplus, the Government folt that they could como to tho IlouBO and ask Parliament to appropriate a much larger sum of money for public works, including buildings and harbours, than was ever asked from Parliament before— a sum of money that will leach $3,250,000 during the current year, or an increase of about $1,500,0U0. The Government felt, Sir, that with the surplus thoy had at their disposal, thoy were justified in asking Parliament for these a) propriations ; Parliament granted thorn ; and these moneys are nov*r being expended for these purpoi^es. In addition to that, we have increased expenditures on the postal f-ervico, on payments on account of Sinking Fund, on Immigration, on Militia and Defence, and on Mounted Police for the current year. Well, Sir, there was an increased expenditure of $2,250,000, with an esti- mated reduction in tho revenue, which wo supposed would leave us with a surplus of $2,250,000; whereas, owing to T tho fullin. Dffiii tho rovoimu, it 1h oHtimuleil that our Hur- i.luH wii. l»o 81,U()0,()()I» from conHolidutotl rovoniio, und $ ,000.5K)0 from public luiulrt. It tnuHl ulrto bo borne in mind ii\ut llio rovonuo wuh doorcusotl from othur cuusort. VVImt wcro Ihoy ? Ono wuh a. reduction of tuxiilion of 12 250,00i» UH compurtHl witb tho your 188I>2. Wimt wore tho rodu(!(ion ? 8844,Ol(j on ton; 87K,:U:^ on cotVoo ; 8yi,7r.> on tin Hhoots und blocks ; 8200,000 on Htumprt ; 8.')0,000 ol ]ioHtHj;o on nowHpuptirH ; 870i>,uOO of loduc- tion in the lolmcco duty ; 81,000 on Hcrup iion ; 814,250 on poriodiculs ; und 8j'>,U'» wiro und othor articlos ; muking ubout 8^,300,000 of reduction in tho tuxiition of tho country, which ot course roilucod tho Hurplu-. IVow, Sir, wo conio to thoHubjcct of tho estimuLed income und expon- dituro for the liscul your 1884-b5. The os.irauicd income m ati fullowH : — From Ouatom, K'^^Z'Tc^ " Excist^ 6,660,000 '« iCt Office 1,9(0,001) " Public Works, inchulitig Riihvaya 3,000 000 " InttTfsl and InvestmjiitB If?'*^ '^ " Other sources BOO.^j^q Total estimated inconw $32,000,000 I muy mention here, us one of tiio cuuweu of reduced income from CuHtomn which we have tukcii into account i« the increased i>roducin<; power of tho manufucturos of Canada. The munufuciuroH of the country have been increasing from year to year to such an extent asto materially alFect tho revenue of tho country by causing a reduciion in thiHmports. Tho estimated expen- diture, according to the Estimates now on the Table, will be82y,811,b"31>. It will l.eobsorvtd by hon. members, that tho estimate, so tar as public works are conceruui, of 81,900 000 urovidt'H for the completion ot public works, for which votes were taken last SeHsion and are hcwi; expended this year. Thoy contain no now item and it is probable therefore that a very considerable amount will appear in the Supple montary E'-timates for public works in a idition to those con taint'd in tho Estimates before us it is probable that Parliament will be asked for some expenditure with I'ewr- once to the obtaining, or, at least, securing the extension of railways, and of course the interest of that sum will have also to be provided. It has been intimated here that it may- be found desirable to extend the Canadian Pacific Railway fiystem from Montreal to (Quebec, and an amount may be required for that purpose. There may be expenditures also beyond that, but whatever thoy may be, there will still be, in addition to tho expenditure on public works, some items, no s doubt, of that kind to ho addrd. It is critimatod there- f'lio that tho S)ip])lornont:irj EhtimatcH will amount to- $800,000 whicdi will make (ho'total ox])Oiiditnrofor tho next year 830, 6' 11, fi;^!); tho estimnto Hurjilus from oonf-olidatod rcvcniio in $1,400,000, and tlio estimated receipts from land in tho North-Wost $l,'J.iO,i)()0, or a total estimated Mirplus tor next year of $2,()r)0,0;j0. Tho leading items of incroaso aro : Militia, S13!),000 ; Mounted Poliee, $51,000; Post Office, $211,000; and tho leadini^' items of decrcaso aro sinking fund and interest $235,000, Public Works $750,000, Indians $147,020. Under these circumstances, it would appear that during the current and tho next year the surplus will ])ro- bably bo in tho nei£,'hLourhood of $2,250,000 per annum, and it will probably bft satisfactory to hon. gentlemen oppo- site who havo objected from time to time to tho large surplus to learn that it has been reduced by a reduc- tion of taxation, by decreased importation, tho result of increased manufactures in tho country. Now I desire to call the attention of the House to objections that have been taken to tho Tariff of 1879 by hon. gentlemen opposite who havo complained of tho enormous surplus that wo havo received in tho past ; who c(,mplain that we have been taking from tb<' pockets of the people a large Mim of money which it would bo much bettor to have allowed to remain there. Tho hon. tho leudor of the Opposition in tho remarks ho made upon tho ibject, said : $'^0,000,000 have been taken out of tho pockets of tho people during tho last four years unrecessai-ily ; yes, he said not only $20,000,000, but probably $30,000,000. When I read that statement, T road it as delivered elsewhere; when it was made in tho House, one of my collpagues, sitting near me, said : " What does he mean by that ? " That was the questiim T asked myself when 1 road that statement for the first time. Well, I concluded, from the remarks made, that tho hon. member not only took into acfount tho $20,000,000 wo had received but ho added tho interest on that and other charges, the profit'^, [ suppose, that the consumer had to pay to tho middleman. 1 presume that is what tho hon. gentleman meant. Now, lot us seo how the case stuiris. We have had in tho last four vea'-s an average surplus of $5,000,000 a vcar, but $4,000,000 of that, or nearly, has been the proceeds of land in tho North- West ; that there- fore, was no la^ upon the people. You may take $4,000,000 off that, at all events, to commenco with. Then lot us seo how far tho position taken by tho hon. member, if I under- etood him aright, is carried out. He estimates, T presume, from tho remarks that fojl from him, that the constimer pays not orily an increased duty but an incioased profit on that duty to ilio man from whom he purch»i:-os the goods. Is that clearly cHtablishcd ? 1 will appeal to every hon. gentleman in the House to-day who is doing busincHH whethc;- the manufacturers in the United States and the manufacturers in the old country have not approached him in the last thre(! or four years and offered to Pell him goods at a lower rale to meet the incrf sed duties that have been collected and gone into the Treasury of the Dominion. Wo know that is the case. No one knows it better than the hon. Minister of Customs who has been brought in contact with this from day to day since .Sid. Everybody understands this fact, and therefore a very considerable portion of the $10,000,000 of Customs that has been paid into the Treasury of the Dominion over and above what was necessaiy to pay our oxpendituro, has been, beyond doubt, paid by the manufacturer abroad. Is it a fact that the consumer always pays the increased ^'uty ? Wo know per- fectly well ihat many of our men who are largely engaged in businefs complain that the imposition of the 2J per cent, additional dutv upon the goods they import is just so much out of their po'ckels.as they do not get it from the consumer. That is the allegation very often made. 1 will quote an authority hero which the hon. leader of the Opposition, I think, will not object lo, to t^how that in many cases and certainly in some, the consumer does not pay the duty. 1 quote, as an authority, the hon. gevuliman who has just left his seat and is sitting at the lower part of tli'j Iront benches (Mr. Paterson, Brant). The hon. leader oi" the Opposition may not consider him quite as good authority, judging from what has occurred lately, as if it came from the hon. gentle- man opposite (Sir Eichard Cartwright.) Still I know he has great confidence in the opinion and judgment of the hon. member, and therefore I will give the leader of the Opposition that hon, gentleman's view lo show that in many cai-es the consumer does not pay the additional duty. I refer to the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Palerson) who said, in 187G : "The other year the Finance Minister, in revising the Tariff, g«iye Bon)e encou'-agemeot to our indus^try which it never had before. The result was Dial 1,000 men who were engaged in that industry in Ger- many were literally trensporte^, by the change in the Tariff, to Canada and set to work here. The cost of the article was not increased one iota, «nd Canada got all the benefit. Tha middlemen puftered a dimi- nution of profits, but for them nobody seems to care much, the producer and consumer receiving all the sympathy.'' That is the statement, no doubt a correct one, and it is applicable to many other articles upon which the duty is increased, the consumer not paying it. The experience of the last four years has proved beyond doubt the 10 wisdom, or, at any rate, the tairnees of that Tariff; that iH the wisdom of its provisions in secniring the nocee- eary revenue, and besides the necessary protection for the industries of the country. New it will bo well understood by hon. members that if a Tariff had been framed that would simply ^ive revenue t-uflSicioni to meet the expendi- ture for the first year or two, there would, as our manu- facturing industries increased, in two or three j'ears be a condition of things that would require the readjustment of the Tariff and the imposition of increased duties. Well, Sir, the Tariff was to a certain extent, I admit, an ex- periment, because we did not know exactly what it would produce. Wo found that, by its application to the imports of the country, from the improved condition of the country increasing those imports, though we had a deficit in the first year, as the result of the over-importation of the year pre- vious, we had in the next year a surplus of four millions, in the year following a surplus of six miUions,and in the fourth year a surplus of seven million dollars. Under these circum^ Rtarces, finding that that Tariff was ample to meet not only all that was required for the time beinif, bu^^i to meet the requirements of the future, the Government asked Parliament to take off two millions and a quarter of taxation. What is the position we are in to-day ? Not- withstanding that the people have been relieved from the payment of that two millions and a quarter of taxation, notwithstanding that there has been a large increase in the manufacturing industries of the country, still we have a surplus of from $1,000,000 to $2,000,000 a year, sufficient to meet any further increase which may take place in the producing power of our manufi.cturers throughout Canada. Under these circumstances, we are i-n a position to-day to meet Parliament and say, we have provided for the past, we have had a surplus in the past, we have reduced taxation, and the revenue, without any change so lar as increased taxation is concerned, is ample and sufficient for tho future, expen- diture that may fall upon the Dominion. Now, under those circumstances, I hold that this Tariff has been in that respect a "uccess. It may be said: "It is true, but should you not have made it something less than it was and not have had such a large surplus during the three years to which you refer?" We might have done it, but I doubt if it would have been politic, even if we knevv that such would have been the result. What has b>^en the effect? We have been able to take off the duties on the necessaries of life, many of them, and we have been able to do what members of the late Government said they intended to do 11 if they had boon ii or whon thoy had a surplus reve- nue They justifieu misolvcH in not collecting revenue flufficicnt to pay the expenditure from 1875 down to 1879, becuupe, when good times came, they would take the sur- plus and appropriate it to paying the deficits during that period. Wo have done that. Wo have paid oft those defi- cits. We have reduced our debt. By the legislation that has taken place hero, we have increased the Domimou note circulation since 1879 by $6,50it,000, and by providi .g tbat wo should deposit Dominion dobontures guarautocd by the Imperial Government for a part of it, wo have not boon re- fluired to keep one dollar of gold more than when we had a circulation of $11,000,000 or $12,000,000 ; therelore wo have had an increased circulation of $6,500,000 without any great cost to the country. Wo have reduced the inteiest of our debt by having a respectable surplus, and thus increasing tho value of our ^o^urities ; and, more than that, we have, by the course we have pursued with reference to tho approprialing of tbis surplusinreducingourdcbt,placed ourselves niRucha position that the net interest paid by the Dominion of Canada during the last fiscal year was $290,000 loss than we paid in 1879-80. Under these circumstances, Sir, 1 think that the policy of the Government has been justified, the lariti has been justified, and I believe that the evidence that we will be able to submit a little later on will contii-m our friends and supporters who have sustained this Tariff up to the present time in the conviction that it is the policy to pursue f .r tho future. I propose to follow, to-day, the course which 1 have pursued bince 1879, and which, 1 think, is the most satisfactory line to take, and that is, year after year, to place upon record the answers to the objections that were made by hon. members opposite when that Tariff was under consideration. 1 purpose,on the present occasion, to take up as I have in thepa8t,all the objections urged by Iwn. gentlemen opposite in 1879, and to produce, from our Trade Returns and from tho statistics that we have, evidence that l tninK will be satisfactory to this House and to the country, that their fears, entertained and expressed in 1879 have not been justified by results any year since that period, down to the pre- sent. But I desire, before I go any farther, to call tho atten- tion of the House to the few changes that the Government propose to make in tho Tariff. 1 say they are few and unim- porumt, because, after considering this question carefully, the Government thought it best, this year at all events, to dis- turb tho Tariff as little as possible. I know it has been said we have since 1879 made a good many changes every year and I think thoy were wise and judicious, but wo all teit at the time that it was desirable to do as little in that way as 12 poflsiblo, unle?8 the public intorosts demanded them; bat in the prcHont year thochannrcs aro not important, and they are in tins dircction—thoy a.e in the din>ction of ^Hvin^ to the manufucturor articles that aro now unonnmorated and pay 20 per cent , at a reduced rate of duty of 10 per cent., or to place thom upon the free li^^t. This'ls still vecn8 inconsistent with the foi-egoing ; and it is proposed to amend pection 8. 42 Vic,, chap. 15, with reference to damaged and peri.-hable goods. At present, if less than 25 per cent, of the whole invoice is damaged no return can be had. It is proposed, now, that if for instance in a case containing plate glass or ylass of any kind 25 per cent, of the package is destroyed, then tho party is to have the benefit. If 20 packages out of 100 packages at the present time were destroyed and not amounting to 25 per cent, of the whole, the party would not get any bonotit. These are tho provis- ions contained in the proposals to be submitted to tho 16 Hoaso. Thoy, it miythina^, rodiico Iho amount of rovoouo tlmt will bo coUoctod under ihoir operation. Mr. MITCHELL. Muy I ask if you propose to take the duty off corn meal ? Sir LEONARD TILLEY. Not at the present Session. Mr. MITCEELL. I hope you will at a very early period, at nome future Senbion, consider it. Sir LF.ONARD TILLEY. I desire to call the attention of the House to the objections that have, on former occasions, been raised to this Tariff. One was that it would damage our credit in England. It will bo remembered very well by hon. gentlemen who wore in the House in 1879 that that was one of the principal objections brought forward by hon. gentlemen opposite. It has not damaged our credit down to the present time. In Octobei- last, our 4 per cent, securities were higher than thoy ever reached before. They were, ex-dividend, U percent more than we obtained down to 1878 or 1879. I will take this opportunity of stating what arrangements were made in England, when I was last there, with respect to the matur- ing' loan. 1 placed myself, by authority lof the Order in Coiincil, in communication with our agents there, with respect to the redemption of iho loan. After conference with them, it wa^ donded that about Nove uber it would be wibo to plfco a loan for £2,000,000 sterling ou the market to redeem in part the 5 per cetit. securities that fall duo on 1st January, 1885. This won d leave us v» iih a smaller amount to place in the market the next year. Il was su^'gost^d by the agents that that loan should ba a short one, for ten yoarsTand at -i -jov cent., that we might be in a position to say to the holders of the present loan maturing oa 1st Ja'nuary next, bearif g 5 per cont., W3 w II eilhor exchange thoi-o with you d;>llai' for dollar or pound lor pound, whicli which would be plac-tig the -4 per ceut, loan at practically U or ;i per cent, uroniiuin, because we had ihree coupons to pay on the dcbeuturos m:iluring on 1st January next, or exchange them as fur as they go, or allow the agentH to parohasc thorn as thoy were placed on the market, ihey then Hiiggestodthat next ymv, later in the season, in Decem- ber, we should place a 3J per cent, loan on the market ior thirty years for the re lemption of the balance of that loan, and for the £2,000,000 sterling wo would probably require to meet the expenditure on carrying the Canadian Pacidc Railway to completion. They, of course, said that a 3|- per cent, loan would not bring as high a rate as a 4 per cent. ; but thoy gave as their reason for suggesting that the loan, to bo issued last autumn, should be for ton years at 4 -%* "■ 17 por cont. thill ii vvoiiM oriablo us to exchange them for 5 per cout,, and the probubilities wore that whoa the ten yoarn had expired and the dobonliireH wore rodoomable wo could roplaco thorn by 8| por cont. dobonturos oarly at par. That wuH their idea, and therefore they sust favourable. Wo h:td re- duced the amount of the bonds of Canada in tho hands of capitalists in England, to the oxtont of 810, 00(),0i)(), between 187!^ and 18-^3. We havo not been comiiclled to go into th« English market tor a dolhir since 1871'. The fact, of our not requiring to do ho gave us, of cour-e, a favourable po-ition in the money market. Then, as 1 stated here lad Sos.sii)n, tho chances weie, that beyond placing the loan on tho mar- ket for £2,0U0,000 to meet tho £2,000,000 sterling wo were redeorning or had to reileem this year, tho exehango of th« debenturea at 4 per cent, for the 8iL>,00u, 000, after deducting 2^ 20 tho Hi'nUing fund fulling duo next Juiamiy—veo wore ;^oin^ into tho murkotHimi.ly lo cxi-luingo hecuriUoH nitlior than to at*k fur now loanrt. Tlio rcsulL ha.s Icon that fromonr HurpIuH, from our inipKived credit, tho HcciiriticH of Canaila Htaiid to-day from 3 to I per cont.higlior than those of Now South WuIoH, which U8od to ho 2A j.or coiit. above Canada. Now, I amfrco toadmit that thoohliyaiiotis wliich wo havoundorta- iton by tho mcuHuro whii h has ii-dt punned this Uouae, will of course, compel uh to go into the Engli^ll market for more money than wo othoiwiso would have required. When wo made arrangomentrt with our agents for the exrlianging of Hocuritio-, they agreed not only to redeem but to place the now bonds for £2,000,0ii0 at one half pur cnt., wherouH under the old arrangement it would have boon 1 per cent, for redemption and 1 per cent, for j)ayment. TIiIh in a fav- oui-ableai-rangcment and will Have us a large ^^^m of money. The probabilities aro that owing to tho rapid progresH of tho work on tho Canadian Pacific Railway, wo will have to go to the Kngli.h market within a year lor £3,00(),0(»0 on a thirty years loan. It may be desirable next year to provido£3,000,00() sterling by a short loan of seven years, which will fall duo in 1891, when the advance becomes due and payable by tho Canadian Pacific Kailway. Hon, gentlemen opposite may say that that will be somewhat embarrassing, considering that we have 82D,0()0,00() to redeem on the 1st of January. It may, or it may not. Much will depend on the state jof the money market ai the time; but we aro in this position : That if it should be found desirable to do so in tho interests of the country, as the debentures which mutuie on the 1st of January next aro not al),>olutely pa^-ablo on that date, wo may avail ourselves of our optiun and allow their redemp- tion lo stand for another year, and it is for this reason among others that tho Government exacted from tho Canadian Paci- fic Railway Company a i-ate of interest which would place them beyond all chance oMoss,and with probably a very con- siderable gain. Now, Sir, that is our position, financially, on tho other Mdeof tho Atlantic. Our credit has not been damaged. Our credit, as 1 sny, was never better than it is at tho present moment, and never has there been a poviod in the history of the country when we could go to tlio oM roun- tiy to obtain a loan for the completion of ihe Canadian Pacidc Railway on more favourable terms than we can at present. Oui- interest last year was 82i)t),(;0l) loss than it was in 1880-hl, and in another year or two, at all events, we shall redeem our 5 per cent, debentures for others b^r'-iPi;: 4 percent, or loss, and wo are in a position to st.ito tu f.'ajlia'rint that even with tho engagements we havo rr^ao''.-, tl. maximum net interest which was paid in 18t0-8l I tt will not 1)0 cxftu'di'il wlicn tluH groat work "m c 'luplclcd. Well, Sir, llicro wns iinothor ohjoction. Wo woro loM Ihiit tlio Turiff would docrcaso our trndo with (Jriul Hritain. I it decroMhed tho trodo with England and incrcuscd tho trndo with tho IJtnttMl States? Lot me ^'ivo you a few factH. In 1870-77 our importu from tho IJnitod StatoH ontorcd for consumptioti wore 851,'$ 12,669 , from Groat Hritain, 83Ii,572,2n9; making a ditroronoo in favour of tho United StatoH of $11,740, 4:}0. In 1877-78 our imports from tho United StatoH, ontorrd for eon- Humption, woro 848,fi.3i,73n ; from Urcat Ihitain, 8H7,431.180; making a ditforerco in favour of tho United States of $11,200,559. In 1878-79 our imports for conMimption from tho United Slaton were $4:{,7.'5!'.219 ; from Groat Britain, 8:i0,9!)3,130 ; making adilVoronco in favour of the United StatcH of 812,846,0^9 In 1882-83 our imports for conHumption from tho United States wore $r)6,032,333 ; from Groat Britain, 852,052,468; making a difference in favour of tho United States of $3,979,865, againstan average difforonco of 8 '2.000,000 in tho previous year. Now, Sir, it may be said by hon, gontleraen opposite that tho incroa^'ed imports durimcr'tho last year or so are in greater propor- tion ir-om tho Uiiitod States than from Groat Britain.^ 1 admit that tho ])roportionato increase from the United States was greater lant year than formerly. This was duo to exceptional circumstancoB. Just lot us look at the imports into British Columbia and the North-Wost Territoricn during tho last year from tho United States in connection with the construction of tho Canadian Pacific Railway. Tho increase of the imports from tho United States into those two Pro- vinces of tho Dominion during the past year as compared with tho vear 1881-82, was soTiolhing like $9,000,000. As I stated before, tho duly paid by the Canadian 1 acific Kiii - way Company on imports of locomotives and rolling stock from the United Slates during the past two years was nearly 81,000,000, showing that that Company alone must have imported 84,000,000 or 85,0(i0,000 worth of articles of that exceptional character from tho United States during that period. You will also fin i, if vou trace tho increased ira- ports from the United States during the past year, that a very largo amount consists of cattle which have been taken from tho United States into our North West coun- m try for the grazing companioH. But, Sir, these items are excoptiocal, and the tigurcH I have driven show that the diflorence in the imports from iho two countries has been largely in favour of Groat Britain. Now, Sir, I Wiuii to httite further the aggregate traile with Great Britain — ihe toial imports and export— was in 1879 967,288,848, whereas in I88;-{ it was S0y,mT.0H4, an incrc»H0, in that period, of S3i,'J08,83(i. The ttggiegato trude with the United Statcvs in 18?9 was 870,!)0 4,72i>, and in 1883 it was $97,701,or)(), an incroa>e of $2t),79's;i;-"^f>, "h iiy-ain^t an inci'oaso of BBliHOO/JUO in our jiggr(>gatc trade with Great Britain. Lot me state further that tlio incrciiHed dn'ies on the imports f I om Grcnt Britain, under llie new fMiill'. are '2^^(f per cent., wliile on the imports from the United States they are () per cent. ; showing 'hat the aj-plication of the TarilT has not been against Enghmd and in fwour of the United Statc>, hut, on the whole, larirely in favour of trade with EngUuid as compared with theUnitcd States. Now, Sir, another statement made was that by tiie impo-i!ion of iho duty on bread.-tuils, we would muteritjlly interfere with the transportation of foreign }U'oduce throng!) Canada. I recol- lect that the hon. geritloman who took his seat in this House yesterday (Mr. Mills) argued th's point at considerable length. lie ende'.>voui'td to show the advantage that we possessed in havii/g Ihcso exports j as'^ ihiough Canada, in the shai)e of bu^irioB-^ to our railways and employ- ment to our people, and he uigod tliut the elVectoftho duty on bread-stulls would t)e very dainaging to Canadian industry in every way. Now, I IidUI in in}^ hatid a state- ment furnished by the Custonis UcparUutriL of thi; value of the produce exported from Car-ada, not the produce of Canada, for several years, which i> :is fwlluws : — 1876. ni 1870 to 1879 wavS $7,409,71-, while duiinLC the four following years, from i880 to 18S8, it amounted to S"i,H9!),!)71--a satisfac- tory answer, in my Judgment, to fiioso gontlcmcii who 23 entortainod f^}avi^ on this subject. Now, Sir, it was also ar^ncii th.-it thiH Tariff, if it proved to be a protociive Tariff, could not b ! a revenue Tariff, and if it was a revenue Tariff ie would tail as a protective Tariff*. Well, It has ])roved to bo a roveriuo Tariff'; that hon. j^cntlemon oppo>ing over-pioauclion, _ though they helped to induce many perhons to go into ih'st iitdustry by irtatif.g on the tloor of Parliament that it • aid the par- ties who had investments in it at GO per cent. Tlie imports in wool in 1877 and '78 Mmounted to (;.330,08-t Ib^. ; in 1881 and '82, they amounted to 0,()b2.757 lbs. ;iu 1882 and '83, to l),82i,10-i lbs. That gives a pretty fair in iex, thr.ugh not 'so clear as in the "case of raw cotton, because it is pritty well underf«tood that an increased quantity of our home uiovvn wu.l has been coiisumed in the man facture of woollen goods in the past year. Still there is an evident large increase in the importaiion of wool of a quality not I'rown in Caiuida. Hides and pelts were imported in 1877 and '78 to the value of $1,207,300, and in 1882 and '83 to the value of §1,1'01.74-1, showing pretty clearly there has been a larij:e extension in the manufaciure of leather ot various kinds. The increased vaiuo of machinery imported is hhown by the' following return : — I 24 Value of Imi^orts 187S $438,037' " 1879 40,3800 " 18>0 503, 85S '< 1881 1,022,518 «« 1882 2,191,446 M 1883 2,757,570 This in undoubted evidence of the increased developmenii; of our mnnnfacturing industries of various kinds. I i-aw it Hinted in the leadinc^ organ of the Opposition, whei this , statement was made by one of the papers on tho Govern- ment side that ii was an indication that tho Taritf had failed to oncourngc tho manufacture of machinery in Canada. Well, I wrote a few letters to ])artieH in Ontario on this aubject, who wore engaged in the manufacture of machinery, and then, answers were most satisfactory. They are rather long to read hero, but one establishmeut said its production had increased by $238,000 in the four years ; and the others all said that they had a laigc increase, from a third to a half— some doubled the num- ber of employees — and they attributed this increase to the policy which established manufactures in the country, thus creating a demand for [machinery they had not before. With reference to my own Pi'ovince, there is a firm largely engaged in the manufacture of machinery there. I did not write to this firm, but I know an application was made to it from tho Department of Marine and Fisheries to do some work, and the manager replied that he was so full of orders that ho could not tender for the work required by the Department. In all parts of the Dominion, there has been increased production of machinery, and machineiy that could not be obtained here has been imported during the last year to tho extent of $2,757,570, showing pretty clearly the extent to which manufacturing industries have been increased throughout tho length and breadth of tho Dominion. Take also the article of coal. It is quite true the consumption of coal has been increased by tho development Oi our railway traffic, and we know that it has been considerably increased through this cause within the last three or four years. In 1878 the imports of coal amounted to 892,446 tons, and in 1883 to l,(;8(),(n7 tons, showing an increase of 719,791 tons while the increased consumption of Canadian coal in 1883 over 1878 was 700,000 tons making a total increased consumption of 1,493,171 tons over 1878. It is quite clear there must he some cause for this increased consumption beyond tho increased requirements of the railways, and all understand this to be tho greatly increase number of factories driven by steam. It is not denied that the increase in factories established throughout tho Dominion 25 in n has been very great indeed. Thin is ilio evidence 1 liave adduced to hliow ihiH policy has been not only a protective policy in its encouiaj^einont tomanufai-lurini^induHtiiCB but it has also been a revenue producing policy. It was said the Tarilt' would not bunetitliio coal indasiiy. 1 OHtimated in lfe79that in four yearn the increased ou!i)Ut, of coal in the Dominion of Canada would bo 4()0,0()0 tons; and the returns I have received from Nova Scotia, though ihoHO are not quite complete, and thoHO from Britinh Columbia thow clearly that the increased out])Ut of coal, as compared with 1879 for the last calendar year waw 2M0 torn a day, for every working day, or a total of nearly 700,000 tons of an increase. That, 1 think, is an answei-, and a forcible answer to the fears entertained and the opinion expressed by hon. gentlemen opposite that this Tariff would be of no service to the coal industry, Mr. CHARLTON. What proportion of the increased out- put is from British Columbia ? Sir LEONARD TILI.RY. Not much; it is mainly from Nova Scotia. Now, we come to two or three pet industries that have been pointed out by hon. gentlemen opijosite as indus- tries encouraged unnecessarily by the Parliament of Canada, as industries that have been pampered by an unnecessarily protective Tariff. I refer more especially to the cotton, woollen and sugar industries. With leferonce to the cotton industries, I think that hon. gentlemen who were in the House in 1879 and in 1880, will recollect that it was sau by hon. gentlemen oi)posite that the capitalists who had invested their money i.. the cotton millsof the country were receiving enormous profits, at the expense of the mass of the people. That was the statement. Now 1 am not quite Huvl from what has taken place that these hon. ger^tlemen will not change th.ir lino of argument and say that this Tariff has been destructive to the cotton industry that the men who have invested their capital in '^ Y^^ /'^.^^.^^^^f^;!!^'; tal, and that the public, the consumers, will ob air it le o. no benefit from it. 'Ihat probably may be the line taken, Im^^ whatever may happen in the future, my impression is that though cotton stocks have fallen cons derably f^-om what hoy were a year or two ago, it will be found that the djn- dends which are beingpaid are f'^'^und reasonabk a^^^^^^^^^^ the nrices paid by the consumers of cotton in Canada aic less KaV ban they wore in 1877-78. 1 am pvcpaied to Sn:lrihartbeg^y cottons --"i^^f-^iv:; ^ ^':^ nion to-day are sold by the manulacturers at p ices as low"ifnot\. percentage beluw what the mm.e article is sold for ill M.as>acliusetts to men in IS traile there. 2« With reforenco to other cottons, the statements that I have had are that, deductinir paid up capital, and. when the mill was iini.^hcd, as a rule— I know it is so in several cases— there was a debt upon th'^ mill and thoy had no capital to woik it, and the result was that thoy had to obtain as.jirffauce iVom outside, and that assistance was rendered them as long as il, was possible for the party who undertook to render il to grant it'. But there was a limit to whi(;h oven the stronirest financial man in the Dominion of Canada could go in that i-ospect, and, when the amount of discounts in the various banks of Canada on cotton acooun* hud reacluvi n very largo sum, and that they could not be ext,>ndcd, a difllculty aroso. Thoy had been manu- facturing more cotton of a particulai- lino (greys) than thorc was demand fin-, which incivasod xheir difficulties. A panic occurred and tho roc^ull was a depreciation of cotton stocks— and it has to a certain extent continued down to ! ho present time, it became necessary, in order to diminuh the stock on hand of a ccrlaiii classW goods, that the number of employes should be reduced, in 'order that their operations might be put in a hoalthv condition. ThoH, when Uv.it boc/nno necessary in order to right nm tiers, what WHS said ? The lumbermen of tho countrvare diminishing this yoar their output, bo.-anse tlvu-e is a largo stock on hand ; but has thoi'e boon anytliing s:.id anywhere against their doing so? Has th-Mo been any .'ompfaint from any quarter m rofeivnco to it ? Has the' wisdom of their course been qiK-HtioneJ at all ? No; but the vorv moment a few hundred oporativos in a cotton mil! were out ol(,mp!oyment for a month there was a cry through the country that the JNational Policy was a failure, that this pampered imJusiry was ir-i a desperate condition, and Wiis in this con- dition ;is the result of the protection that had boon Ipiliissiili evep. ,.,,„„ thaf^Srwaf-n'ot' -' !. 'oa^ a/il";:';"' :' H^nt All „„g„,. iH cheap, I ad.nit; bat ovm, wi h tboC pnco ol raw Bumir under the TaiiT of laic , i. ^: pH^i;'!^^/^^^ 7ear,t.7^r\,:;;^^, "s:;;„^ •inofh., ; r 1 ^ -1 ^'^"^ '^'^'^ reference to woollen .roods tax o';';;'' ,:r ^^^ '^^* ^ri- ^^--^ -.-d that the pos' ';« DOW u« ' ^^ f- '"^'^■^'i^*'^ y do to-day. Now, Sir. we come to the iron industry that they said was another pet industry and • hey particularly declaimed against the duty on pig iron We also gave a bounty to that industry, yet notwithstandinir the bounty to this industry, hon. gentlemen opposite stae itisin financial difficulty. Well, that is quite true; and [ can assert, Mr. Speaker, tliat if they were not in recoiptot the benefits of a protective Tariff and a bounty they could not continue to run a day longer. Though w© require to pay from the Treasury a considerable amount of money as bounty to that establishment, or to any other that may be established, the parties who are engaged in it pay into the Treasury an equivalent to that° bounty: and li It became a question as to the existence of that establishment, or the payment of the bounty, it could be easily settled, becau^e the country would lose all these peo- ple and the revenue that is paid by this and other industries connected therewith would bo lost by the closing up of that establishment, it maybe said by ho... gentlemen opposite- You have not succeeJe.i in esmblishi.igany new industries ot the kind, you have scan^oly kept this one alive." VN^ell 1 believe the iron industry the world over is in an embarrassed condition today; every one knows that. You mav go to Fen.sylvania, you may go to J'Jngland, you may go^to any iron country the world over, and you will find the prices are lower, almost, than they were over before; thorei^ore I am in a position to state that it is only by tho protection given, and the bounty that was. paid, that this establish, ment is kept in existence. We hare had another indi.>-atiou 81 of tlmt. A comj.ntiy was foimod luHt autumn in Kncland with acaj),ta of £370,000. Ibr (l,o nmnufaCure of chai- coaled mm Ilicy aio likely to aocomplJNh .otuothinL' ntill I have no doubt ij.cir operuiionM are Homowl.ai paralyzed by the unu.ually low p. iee of iron at i he prc.^eni moment. Ihereloio it eani.ot be oxpe(-ted that we < fin have pron- ponly m an^^ j.articular indiiBlry of thi. kit>d when it iH not in u ilourihlnn^' condition nnywi,cMc else. Well bir, we come to another, point. Jio„. i^enlUn.er, uuuo- site Hay: "What have you i„ ,ay w.th relerence to the argument you have adduced hoio on former ocr«a- HionsaBto the value of banl< ntocks as an indication of tlie condition of the country ? What have you to say with re- lerence to the equulizin^r of the imports and exports— which the hon oaderot the Opposition )cf,'rrcd to in his Speech in the d( bate on the Addn^s? " Well, Sir, T s.iy this that the record hhovvs that with reference to (he bianco of trade our policy hns had, to a great extent, the ellect we taid it would and 1 will prove it, But a word or two with refer- ence to bank stocks. La^t Se^nion of Parliament, as the hon. ie; der of Oppohition stated, ] made no reference to that subject as an evidence of the ].rosperity of the country ; becaut«o I felt at the time that the v;.luo of bank stocks was at a point beyond which, in my judgment, the ret-ouicesand rests ot the banks warranted. It arowe from various causes ; It arofco, ill the lirst place, from men who could not obtain more than 4 per cent, for the money deposited in banks and various other iin.>-iituiions Bought to get a hirger return by inveftting in bank stocks"; and honco this increased demand. It is true that it had the brokers a ho were enyaged in these OjXMations hulling the nuirket. and forcTntJ- stocks above the point which. J believed at the time, and a great many people agreed with me, wa. b( vorid their real value. The hon. gendeman (Sir E chaid Cartwright) may ask as ho did at Lennox three months ago: "What explanation has the hop. Finai.co M nistor to ofT'or as to the reduciioM in the value ot bank stocks, which equals $7,000 000 as compared with the value in Ib82?" Well, I can bay to him in rej.ly : What has the hon. gentleman to Huy to the fact that since Parliament met, or since 1st Janu- ary, the stocks of the Bank of Montreal and that of other Banks, have largely increa5ed in value. The hon. gentle- man stated at Lennox that : "Some gentlemen present knew to their cost that, althoujfh it was not possible for the Reform Government to add one cent to the value of their taritt, jdt that h Finance ilinister who did not un krstaud hisbusi- nees and would persist in acting on hi^ own advi -e couuary to mat of able men around him, could destroy the maket for their barley by de- stroying the malt-pruduciug interest of Canada, as air Leonard iilley I 32 t' hail done tiiodl wiinloiilv. (Hciir, IvHr, ani cl^'ofs.) Tlin course fol- lowcil li'i'l t)f(m 8iiK>C"^'''l '■o ''ini (Mir liictmrJ), but on enquiry he found that if lie 3tiirl"il in that diit'ciion ho might give American maltsters the oiiportiiniiy whicii tlipy hid lo'iK h"en SHrkinvtof usin(?our action for the iiirpoBti of ot(!iidin(? (Janadian malt. 1I« therefore abstained. Hir jjoonard Tilley took a dilftirent view. Ho put on a duty, and in so do- ing rttruck a blow not only at an important Canadian industry, butat the JnlcrcnH (tf our liailoy growing counties, bocause it was of gre-at import- ance to farmnrs that, if there should be for a time a surplus of barley, it sliould be nuiU'jd in our owa country and held over until such time as a rise in [iricos occurred. Now tlioy wore eutirely in the hands of Oswego mwrcianti and American maltsters. (Cheers.) • • • Not long ago till) Fiuancn .Vlinisit^r stated that t^e Dominion was safe for an- other seven years of uninterrupted prospemy. Scarcely were the words out of liiH raoutli than the list of ba-ikrupticies began to swell to such pDportions that the list for 18=i.J would pnwo greater than that of the worit year of the depression when Mr. Mackenzi was in power." Tlio B.ink of Montreal stock wa>i tho baromotor of Blocks gonorally, and that it had f];ono down million.s. The value of that HLock today is $3,000,000 over what it was on the Iwt January lu.st. Thin would be evidence, if 1 wore to follow tho lino ot ar^'uinont adopted by that hon. gentleman, that bu.sincHH is rapidly itnp'-oving, a conclusion which I am not disposed to object to. What were the circumstances which led to tho depreciation in tlie value of bank stocks ? Several circumstances combined to brini^ about that result, but 1 do not hesitate to say that the outrageous mismanagmentof tho K.Kchango Bank had a great deal to do with it. It is quite true thai; vviion tho tiiial crash came it did not atl'ect terimOr ally the banking institutions of tho country ; but it alfocted men siu'king investments and those who held bank stocks H-t i.ivostmonts, they wei-e led to the conclusion that as ponn.inent investments these stocks were nob satis- factory securities to hold. The consof[uenco was that such persons sought investmiMits elsewhere and placed their bank slock on tho market, and that circumstance to- gether with tho ilisLurbed state of tho market at the time would as-^i-tl t.hi> " l)oavs" to forco slocks below theii' real value; and thai iudood was tlio result. What was there to j istit'y that great re luotion ? I have a statement here which "shows that nine or ton of the banks increased their rest during last year by Si,78i,000, and still their stock had de])reJated in value tor the reasons stated. But they are now advancing, beiiii,'' restored to a figure nearer their fair value, and 1 am salislied they will reach a higher point than at present. The existing position of bank stocks does not tleprive us of tho argument we used befoio, that it was the satisfactor}' duancial condition cd' the country, that in- creased the value of those stocks, and they are far higher to day than they were in 1878, and will go still higher. 8a After Recess. Sir LEONA]{D TILLKY. PicviouH to Ucco.-h, Sir, I was callinpf Iho nttention of iho Houm) lu the sluttmont tlmi WHH raado out of iIk^ lloui-r l)y the lion, mcnihor for Soutli Huron, und in iho Ilouho hy tlio lion, luadur of Iho Opposi lion, roialivo t > liio Muldcn full (liat iuui tilfolhcr. Now, tho hon. tho leader oi tho Op|)()!silion, no doubt, in hiw rennirkH rolerreil to tho Jact, becauso it is a fact, that tho imports of last year woro larger than ihoy were iho year l>eforo, and that tho ditfor- erico bolwoen liio inijiortM and iho OAportH was ^loator than in the year before and the year |)i'ovious to Uia.. Now, 1 Htill hold lo iho proposition that, ordinal ily Hpoaking, it in in tho iiitorost of tho couritiy to incroano our exports and to decreano our imports by tho extension of our own manutaclurort. Thiw proposition 1 lay down that if wo can increase our exports an \ dimiriiHh r ur im|»orts by producing in tho country artic.loH formeny imported it is bettor than to import thoso articlos, inasnundi as it ^ivoH omploymont to tho j)eoplo and more nearly adjusts tho balance of trade. Jiut circumstances thai have taken (ilaco in tho last year or two that have increased materially tho inoi- ports, and there has been no corrospondint; exports to rneoi that increaso. We all know tho Canadian Pacific iiailway Company' have expended in the construction of their road and branches something like 858,000,000 in two years, wo all know that in addition to that, tho hon. Minis- ter of liailwaj's has been conHtiucting during tho last two years a portion of tho Pacific Railway ; wo know that tho Government have boon importing rails and other material for tho portion ot tho lino constructed by tho Government and tho Canadian Pacific Eailway have been importing Bteel rails, locomotives, rolling stock and other material, perhaps lo tho extent of 310,000,000 during tho last year. ThoftO are exceptional circumstances, but Btill, I venture to Bay, hon. gentlemen opposite will give us no credit whatever for them in tho account. VVhon wo tako 'H 85 into c, msidonition tlie circumstiinccs of tho Imt yoor or two, wo cunnot ox poet anything,' oImo l)tit an inorcoso in tho (lill'oronco botwoon liio imports and iho oxports, bc( t;:l ito I ll ■ailKO, t.iiiii^ fiiui iiccdijriL an mo murn'y iiuiL canio int') the Norlh-Wosi fnv its dovtOonmont and imj)rovo- mcnt. lakiii^' into nci-onnt. ni| tho imports tor tho (Canadian Pacilic, KaiUvay, all tli«' inipirts l>y tho i-oiiti-ictorH and hy ll)o (J(»vernrn«Mit with rofluonco to tho coriHtruciion of thin railway,— what l)avo wo in roturn iti tiio shapn of'oxpoitH? Wo have) notliing as yot. Thcroforo it i,s iiiuicr tho ox.rop- tional cdrcumstaticca to whicdi I rolcr thatUio imjorls have hi'on iiicrouHod as oomparnd with tho oxpoi-ts diiriri-r the hiMt two years and cspoc'ially during' iho laM, year. Bull maintain iho facts on record in tho Trade Itjliirns during lho_ hiHt fivo years show, hoyond dotiht, tin', thiw policy has broii^fht nearer to^rothor tlio imports and export H tlian they would have been by tho policy that previously existed. I will ^'ivo f-omo facts to prove this, and I will nt;ito theso tads to •-li'tw that, notwith- Ht'uidin;^ the increu-Jod imports for tho Canadian I'acitie. and thoCrovoinmont Railways, ar,d tholarifo oxpendi'uro in tho North-West that induced import-, we have still lir')Us^ht the balance of trade more in our favour than wo could hivo done under tho policy of hon. f^eu'lonicn opposite. The value of im])ort8 per head of tho population in 1^83. not- withstanding the circumstances I have mentioned, was 8^8. What was it in 1873, when no ex eplional circumstances existed ? Jt was 3 VAS)S per head. In 1874 it w;is $:V'.l2 per head; in 1875, $30.24; in I87H, $22; in 1877, 6i3.2H; and in 1878, $21.44 per head — or an average on tlio population of those years <'fSi7. 14 per head; whilo, duiing tne last foui years, with these exceptional circumstances cxistinEf which I have mentioned, tho averaa;e has been but $2.S.02 per head, or u diH'erence of $ 10,000,000 per ye:ir in favour of the latter period. Uui'ing tho last year if the imports per head of tho poinilation had been tho same as they wore in 1873, we would have had $l.i2,000,000 of imports instead of $132,000,000, making a ditferenco of $20,000,00t) during tho year. This establi^hes beyond doubt the effect of the policy, because there is just about that amount of increased muTiufacturos in the Dominion during tho yoais to which I have referred. I took this afternoon as an illustra- tion, tho value of raw cottons imported. If wo talco tho returns submitted by tho cotton mills we find something like an increase of $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 in the manu- facture of cotton alone ; therefore all the labour and capital expended, everything connectoi with this industry was so 3i m much .suvod to tho country sind a con inipoitod, and wo asU yon, connidorini^ tho ])rospi'rity of tho country hist year, and as a consoquonco lurtro importations, whether, it wo had not tho Tardt by wiiich wo have boon ablo to produce by those intiustrioH, $1 (5, 000, 000 a year more than wo ]>roilucod in 1870, tho bahincc wouhi not have been hii',ti;or against us tiian it is? 1^ hold that a policy which, if it does not increase tho exports, will diminish tho imports, must have the effects of bringing tho cxp{>rts and im])oils nearer toujether than wt)uld iiavo another and opposite policy. J ask whether this has n()t boon suHtained by those f; cts ? I have dealt with tho loadini^ objections down to the present time, that have boon made ai^ainst the policy adopted in 1870, and 1 think that the atisworin 1 havo "J aeguo.ung ttie r l)o,i,'an to think, who wan il sittini,' aror.n 1 mo of Iho able men, my colloa-iu-H an.l thoso Hupportinir us, who took (".xcopl.oii to th(^ hvrishilion whii-h we intrnduood. I could not recollect any one of my collcnj^iu's or any nuunheron this sHie of (he IJouso. The -cntloman who did take exception \yas the ex-Finance MiniHter the prc:-en' -ncmbnr lor S )uth Huron, and therefore the remark must h.ave applied to him, as " the able men around me." " As Sir Lt'otmr-i Tilley had (lone most wantinlv. (Hcfir, hear aud .ptant (^.inadian industry, but at the interest of our bHrJey-jzmwiriK counties, because it was of >r,>at import-uic. to farnHTs that, if there should be .n/i fJ'" " ""■'''",' ^f '""-'^V' '' should h>.' malted In our own coantry, and held ov.T uiif.l Puch time as a rise in ih" prir-e oecurrea. .Vow they were entirely in the ha-.ds of Oswego merchants and .■Vmencan malts teis. This is the report V)f the speech made in which a charge is brought against the (Tovernmoi t in reference to thisniat- \r''- ^^*-'"';'^''"' ' -'f" Juu-e lepresenled as a mo«t obstinate Minister of Finance. The gont Ionian oppo.site represents himself in this case as the pliart Minister of Finance. I have heard the hon. gentleman and his friends ojiposito speak of the Government, and of myself as Finance ALinis- ter as being too jiliant, and say that all the people had to do was to come and ask^that certain concessions should bo made to certain interoht-, and tiiose conces- sions were made at once. That is a different charac- ter, from what is given here. Here I was obstinate and would not take the advice of able men around mo. And, Mr. Speaker, the generjil imprf-sion of tlio.-e with whom 1 have bad jiny conver.-aliofi on the subject since 187S was that that hon. ifontleman opposite was the obstinate man who would not take any advice, who would not bo influenced by tiny suggestions that were made. Now, let us sec; is it a tact that the action of this Government had any- thing to . In 1881, we that year im- ported 10,553 bui>ho]s, \aluo $U',270, duiy collected $5,171, or a fraction over 50 per cent., agaim-t&'J per cent, thtit the hon. member imposed. In lt>2-8,^, we imported 15,979 bushels, value Si5,C99, duty ps-id S7,509.93, or a little less than 50 per cent , and yet tiie hon. nieml cr told them at Len- nox on the eve of an election — I will not say that it was at all to affect it, but only to show what an outrageous Govern- ment this wais and that they should not send any one hero to support it — that we had dtpiivcd priducoisoi that section of the country of selling their bailey to the mallMers. and that their interests were sacrificed, when tlie tiuty, from 1881 to 1883, was 30 per cent, less tl in the hon. member himself imposed in 1878. Yet, he said »'ewere responsible for that eliange, and, as that is one of rbe charges which I thought might ])OSHibly be brought to-night, though I do not know that it will, I thought it just as well to !-pike that gun at once. There is another charge, smd a vtiy general one, made all over the country, to tiie effect that wo have im- posed a du'y of 35 per cent, upon im|)orts to Canada. That is the general statement. There are a f( w articles that pay 35 per cent , but we know that last year the average duty on the whole imports was something like 19 per cent. I hfid the })leasure of addressing a meeting at Strithroy, which was referred to by the hon. member opposite the other night, and the member for Brarit was present on that occasion, and ho took that exception to the Tariff policy of the Government. Ho said to the audience, imagine your sending to Germany and importing a certain article, and, when it reached tb.o borders of Canada, you are charged 35 per cent, duty on it, v hat an outrage that is. I 89 I Well, T must i-ay that, after roadinf:^ the speech of the hon. member for Brant in 187H two or throe times, I should claim him, thou^'h he cfilim himself a FreeTrader, as one ot the noundeHt ProtoclionistH in the Parliament of Canada, taking hi^^ Hpeech ahj a criterion, and nothing oould ho Htron<^op than the way in which, in the extract I read i'rom his npooch to. On 31st Julv, 1883, four years later they 42 wore $99,241,325, being an incroaso in that period of $35,H93,180, and an increase durin/sf the five years of $53,000,000 taking into account both the Post Office Savings Bank and the chartered banks of the country. This is evi- dence that the people aroearning naoney and have a surplus or they would not be in a position to add so largely to the de- posits in our banking institutions. The hon. member forBraiUt (Mr. Patorson) staled last year that this was no proof of increased earnings among the masses, because there appeared to be a much larger increase in the '^'" ..'♦^imp Pro^'inces than -more money had io and Quebec, not been in the elsewhere, and it could not beproter. ; • been earned in those Provinces than In the Lower Provinces the people Jiuve habit of making deposits in the banks and the banks have not encouraged the payment of interest on deposits, and the result has been that the spare money of the people of the Maritime Provinces has for many years gone into the savings bank, while the chartered banks of Ontario and Quebec have paid porhapn a higher rate of interest than the Post Office Savings Banlc, and the people have depoiiited largely with those insLitiUions. That accounts for the apparently large increase in the Maritime Provinces as comp.ired with Ontario and (Quebec . It may be said that within the last three or four months the wages of employes of manufac- turers in the Dominion have in some cases been reduced ; that we have not so many men employed just now as we had three or four months ago. I am free to admit that Canadian manufacturers have to day an unusual strain put on them. And from what cause is this strain ? Every hon. member knows th'it manufacturers in Great Britain, where the policy of Free Trade prevails, and manufacturers in the United States where Protection prevails, have surplus stock on hand, that they are reducing thv umber of their em- ployes, that they are diminishing their wages, that they are compelled to sell their surplus stocks, and the stocks they are even now ])rodaciiig from day to day at a lower rate than usual. Those reductions have in many caso-^ taken place, though resisted by the operatives in both England and the United States. What is the result ? Our American neighbours and British manufacturers, owing to their profits being reduced and the wages paid to their operatives being now lower than bef )re, come to our market and are sharply competing to-day with the Canadian manittaeturers. As the prices paid for labour in the Uiii oJ States must regulate to some extent the price of labour in Canada, because if the wages are not about equal the operatives will soon pass across the line. Our manufacturers found it necessary to increase the wages here when an advance took place s (t ( >n tho United Stat thi m 48 in order to keop their men ; but Lot n,o ™.y th,. ihit wo cannot obioct to m„ b •, uCK crodit at homo a,.d nb,-„,,d, to diJiC^;^^ no' ^ tlr to the ™,uu,y and invo.tinir iboir ,-.,,,rial hZo Z ioT-*' courago tbo jiooplo of tho count.y by tbo c.ioVol ,i™?, ^' newspa,;e,- Rnpportini. the Admini8tration b-c'u.sc tl orl were a number of families as there are ever rwter u. every cU y of the Dominion, widows and those who are cn.e8 and require assistance. But does 'this compa e w Jh he cond.t.on of atFairs in lS78-7[) when wo/ine be ofT'ar .nment and the citizens of Ottawa, wore asked to ul^^cnbe to buy bread for hundreds of men, who although they were willing to work, were starvinrr? Is th^f rJ,o /.ael "^ any city of tbo Dominion ? I,f .^d to", .0 , h,- "l °dVn" 1 bavo here a Malcmont made by the Slay, ' of eS lit" bit r ;To'as for mo to make any further state- ment. When the hon. i^ontleman riscH in his place and endeavours todofeatthe policy of the Govei-nment by st'iting that the country is in a worse p'^sition to-day than it was in 1877 and 1878, with reference to employment for tho people of tho countiy, T want no further statement to satisfy inde- pendent men on both sides of the House that these gentle- men are seeking really some other object than the good of the country. I am amazed at the statement nf the hon. gentleman that the country is in a worse state than it was live years ago ; but if that is to be the line to bo taken by hon. gentlemen opposite, I wish to refer to tho fact that Sir Richard Cartwright, who was not then a member of the House, at the meeting to which 1 have referred, said to the people, look at the state of the conntiy at the present time : "Why," said he, '' the bankruptcies this year will b*? in excess of the worst year of the Mackenzie Administration." But hnw di^;appointed must the hon. gentleman have been when he found thatthey only amounted to about one half of what they were during the three years 1877-78-79, 1 hav.e the returns here, and they show that in each of those years they were nearly double those of last year, notwithstanding the fact that the figures for last year include nearly 2ii0 failures in Manitoba and the North-West — failures of an exceptional character, owing to causes which every person knows. We know that tho spirit of speculation which existed in Winni- peg, a city of 2.5,000 inhabitants, was such that they were asking for lots in that city as much as. and more than could be obtained for lots in the centre of the city of Toronto— as much in .^^omo cases, as was asked for lots in Chicago. The hon. gentleman must have known that that was a state of T 1 46 tiio o her 3.e«r« to which I ^eL l7 T '^"'^'"^^^'^ ^ono in «ocl darkness before th m r^j"'ro'--nothin^. butlrloom reason to hope Fvm ht f!. '' >'*^^''' «'"J vvho ^avo mo l^ent.monts wire, thS [f tffel"' "?"^^''*^« vvhat^lus ,oJ Je would be Mini«t". of Zun^I «''Ould ever corne ha PO'J^ ho advocated in 187b' at ^'^ "^.^"^^ «'and by the }>^^' ^or .South Huron %;.P- f^^"'' *'^''t the hon Lm - wUlt.Uvi.los omploymon tor ho poo) o who would othorwi80 bo ullo. will continuo to oHtuhliNh Us ' )utationand CHtahiish it.olf in tho hoartn and atlo.Uons of tho people of tho Domitdon of Canada. Aih though I Tal^cM-ot indml it tho lino whioh has boon m- di:S s^akon by those hon. .^or.tlomon, who .tatcd this ovcnin- that tho country is in a wm-o poa.- tion 'ban Tt was in 1878-tbough, I say, I shal re- mo t It tbi^ lino should betaken, bccaube it is calculated fodam '0 h^ at the same time, "» spuo of hose dodarations, in'spite ot; tho ^^-l-'^f '-,: ^'-i;,"^^!^ bo made to-night, or in tho oourso ot the debate iQ snito of tho artidos which have appeared n the Cana- di n, American and En^^lish papers, calculated to damage the credit of tho country, thero are roBOurcos .n the country, there are vigour a"\P-^«^\;;"' ,,:' nolicv to tho neoolo of tho country, and there is in this policy to whicri ro?or that which gives hope ^nd energy to the ^oonle which will place us to a considerable extent above jS'beyrnd the inlfionce of such spoecdies and s.ich argu- ments as may be made against the National Policy, in this Parliament or elsewboro.