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Tous les autres exemplaires originaux sont filmis en comment ant par la premidre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'illustration et en terminant par la dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbols -^> signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbols V signifie "FIN". Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre film6s A des taux de rd, are printed. Kurtlier information concerninf; each pai>er is to bo foimd in the List, commencing on page 4. A Aflulteration of Food 7ii Agriculture, Annual Re|iort 8 Archives, Canadian 8« Atlantic Steamship Line 84, 84rt, Mh Auditor Cleneral, Annual Ke|>ort 1 Australia, Mission to. . 5a Awards, Agricultural Iniplenu-nts at Chicago. 8f B liauks, Chartereil 3 Hanks, Unclaimed Balances in 3f( Baptisms, Marri.-kges and Burials (n.p.) 105 B. C, Conmuitation of Sentence in (n.p.) t'tbU Blue Books (n.p.) 3!) Bonds and Securities (n.p.) 38 lionuH i)aid for Settlers (n.p.) 07 Boundary, Alaska and British Columbia. (n.p.) 8(i Breweries and Distilleries 1 n.p.) 104 Bridge at St. Michel d' Yamaska (n. p. ) 34/( British Canadian Loan & Investment Co.(n.p.) 20 British Columbia Penitentiary... .(n.j).) r>'.)i\ 5!W, ■'iitc British Columbiv Railway Belt (n.p.) 4.') Building of Canadian Ships (n.p.) 74, 74'( Bureau of Labnir Statistics (n.p.) <(H Butter (».]>.) ti'.t Butter and Cheese 8A C Campbell, Samuel (n.p.) 33f< Canadian Cattle, Schediding of M Canadian Pacific Railway : Payments to d'-l'-) 28 Lands sold by (n.p.) 34 Business with Interior Department. . .(n.p.) 34n Schedule of Rates 34c Western Division (n.p.) 34rf Canadian Ships (n.p.) 74, 7l Certified Captains or Mates (n.p.) SH Chambly Canal (n.p.) 24, run Chartered Banks 3 Chevalier, I. B (n.p.) 33« Chicago Awards Se Chicjigo E.xiKwition, Pri/.es at 101 Civil Serviiw Boarfl of E.\aminers ICA Civil Service Insurance (n.p.) ."il Civil Service List . . Ifm Civil Service .Sujierannuations (n.p.) 2;-|, iJd Cockburn Island Wharf (n.p.) 7i">c Coffin, Charles (n.p.) (IS Colonial Coiifertince ,V< Columbian Exposition, Nova Scotia Employees at (n.p.) .">5 Columbian ExjKwition, Rejiort cm 8<; Couniiission on Liipior Traffic 21 Commissions to Public Officers 31 Commutation of Senu-nce in B. C (n.p.) i't'xl Connolly and McCJreevy. . (n.p.) 37 Contractors' Securities (n. p. ) S7 Copyright Laws 50 Cornwall Canal (n.p.) 77fc, 77c Criminal Statistics 8/ Customs Affairs at Woodstock (n.p.) 112 D Dairy Conimii^sioner Hh Davis, W. H., k Sons (n.p.) 77'<, 77c Departmental Re|Kirts (n.p.) 3^ Dividends Unpaid in Banks *( Dominion Lands (n. p. ) 3."), Xia Dominion Police Re|K)rt (n.p.) 22 Dominion Savings Banks (n.p.) 71 57-68 Victoria. Alpliabetical Index to Seesional Papers. A. 1894 R Elffin Vdterit' Lint (n.p. ) Kllih, .Toliii V (n.p.) KMti:iiat<-H ExcIkmuht Court RuleM. . — (n.|i.) Kxi'iMc KxiK'iiHCH, I'lifiiifHci'n (n.p.) Ex|>erimfntal Knrnm, Anniinl R»"i>i>rt Ho m 4» 2 32 7 2tt Kiutt StttainKliip Lhu- 84, 84fl, Mh FiHh(!iii-H ill Onturiii (n.l>.) 33/ FiHliing HoiintifN . (n.p.) XVi KJHliinK LiccniwM (n.p.) M FliiK .Station, Rj-nioval of (n.p.) Hit Food, Adultfnition of 7" Fn-nuli Treaty M, 6«n GalopM R'lpidn OiannHl (n.p.) 60 (icologiciil Siiivcy Ri'lmrt 13<» (toHW-lin, .Miclifl (n.p.) 41 (iov»mior (i«"n«'rar» Warrants (n.p.) 27 Grand Ktang (n.p.) 7I» Hiirrix IVoix-rty (n. p. ) Hfrring FiNliini; (n.p.) HouK'KteiidH in Munitolw (n.p.) Howlun Rond (n.p.) Hudnon Hay, Kxplorationi* to (n.p.) HimniM of Ixji'ette (n.p.) Ininiigi-ation Ri-tuni-nien (n.p. ) 03 ImiK(rt.s, Various (n.p.) 81, 81«, 8V,, S\r Indian Atfairn, .Vnnuul Report 14 Inland Reviinie, Annual Rf|M)rt 7 Insurance, Annual Ri'iMirt 4 InHurance Comimnies 4a, V) Intcrc'olonial Railway Freight RateH. (n.p.) 34*/, 44 Interior, Annual Re|ioit 13 .lames Bay, Kxplonitions to (n.p.) 3<5 Johnstone, .fudge (n. p. ) 58 •Tunior .Judges, Ontario (n.p.) 83 .f ustiee. Annual Report 18 .Justice Palmer (n.p.) 2i» K Kingston Penitentiary, (n.p.) 59i, 54 Library of Parliament, Annual Report 17 Licenses to U. .S. Fishing Vessels (n.p.) 33 Liquors, Distilled and Fermented (n.p.) 103 Liquor TrafKc, Royal Commission 21 Ms Loans for .Suetl-grain (n.p ) 102 Loli«t»'r Fishing (n.p.) .^V Luther, Sale of Lot in (n.p.) 72, 72(( M Manitoba, Homesteads in (n.p.) 70 Manitoba ScIiikiIm 40,1, 4 Mission to Australia 5<( Montl>etit, .1 ulien (n.p.) .'«Vi Montreal Tinilier I )ues (n. p. ) 7".i« Mounted I'olice, Animal Ku|)ort 15 Me Mefireevy and Connolly (n.p.) 37 McI..eofl, .lohn (n.p.) m Mcijueen, Timothy (n.p.) 'iSI> SI North-west Mounted Police 15 North-west .School Tea<-hers (n.p.) 40 O Ontario Fisheries (n.p.) ;<3/ Ontario .Jiuiior .Judges (n.p.) S3 Ottawa, Colonial Confen-nce at .V, P PalniiT, .Justice (n.p.) 2(t Prince Kdward Island Railway (n.p. ) 23 Prince Kdward Island .SchiNil Law 40/. Penitentiaries, Deaths in (n.p.) .00 Pickets Pier (n.p.) 7« Pig Irtm 40 Postmaster (Jeiieral, Annual Reimrt 12 Post Office Havings Hanks (n.p.) 71 1'rizes at Chicago Kx)K)Hitiou 101 Provencher, Rivers in (n.p.) 62 Public Accounts, Annual Re|H>rt 2 Ptiblic^ ( ttticers' Commissions 31 Public Printing and Stationery ICk- Public Works, Annu.kl Re|H)rt Public Works, Exp<-nditures on (n.p.) 7')il (Quebec Timber Dues (n. p. ) 70 Railways and Canals, Aiiiiiial Re|iort 10 Recei])ts and Ex|ienditures (n.p.) 52, 52a Recipnicity with United Stab's (n.p. ) 85 Return-men, Immigration (n.p.) 93 Revising Officers (n.p.) 43 Rocheluau, .Joseph Placide (n.ji.) 82 Royal Cuniniission on Liquor Trattic 21 I >J i. I Vf# 57-58 Victoria. Alphalietical Index to Sessional Papers. A. 1894 Hoyal Military CoIIpki' 48 4H>( RiiIhh, Kxch<-qtit>r Court (ii.p.) 32 KuAtico Hreak water (ii. p. ) T.V SulNiiiriii, Tli)''<)pliil<> _ ...(ii.p.) a3n •Sule of Lot in Luther (n, p. ) 72, 7'2. Mi.V,, (i.V *'"■'"»"' (n.p.) !W .Schear(l of Triwle (n.p.) 84fc HoulauKeM Canal (n.p.) 57, 57/., .57r, 57,f' •St. Andrew's Hupidn (n.p.) , 'iiVi Swine, SlaughterinK of (n.i>.) 100 T Tariff ChanKen (n.p.) 42 TlKumand Ixlandi* m Tinilier Dues, Montreal (n.p.) Timber Dues, (^uebj-c (n.p.) Tinilier LicenHCH (n i» ) Timber Sold („ p ) Toliacco, Canadian („,„_ \ Trade and Commerce, Annual Re|iort Tra<)e ami Navigation, .\nnnal Reiiort Tradi^ UnionH (n.p.) Trent Valley Canal („,,') Tuiuml lietWHiui P. K. I. and Mainland 70f( 70 7»« 79fc 106 5 en8eg (n.p.) I'nited States, Cattle from V Vankoiifflinet, L .(n.p.) VoteiH' Li.^t, KIgin '^n[^i.) Wrtrrants, C.overnor (Jeneral'H. , Weights, .M. asures and Gas. . . . Went Hay, N..S Whyeocomag'i, N'.S ; w.hmI, a. K Wood Island I'.reakwater W<«xlHtofk, Ciiitoms Affairs at. , World's Kx|M)Ni:ion, Ke|iort on.. Wrecking and Towing V Vamaska River Dam (n.p.) .(n.p.) .'n.p.) .(n.p.) (n.p.) .(n.p.) (n.p.) 26 '.Mi .■).S 80 27 7'. 97n 97 73 75/, 02 */ N3 • ("•!>•) 77, 77a IJ 67-68 Victoria. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1894 See also Alphabetical Index, pasre 1. LIST OF SESSIONAL PAPEKS Arrninijed in Numerical Order, with their Titles at full length ; the Dates when Ordered aud when Presented to both Houses of Parliament ; the Name of the Member who moved for each Sessional Paper, and whether it is ordered to be Printed or not Printed. CONTENTS OF VOLUME B. C«-nHUH of Canada, 18iH) id. Hwiuicl V 91. Third Volunu^ Printnl for Imth (tistriliulion uml si mioniil puixm. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 1. 1. Report of tin- Auditor Ocnrrid on Ainiropriiition AecoiintH, for tlic y<'«r cndi'd .Siltli .Tune, 18!tM. I*r»-- Hente<) 20th March, IH'M, l>y Hon. (i. E. V\)»tfT. I'rinliil fur hnih ilislriliitlinii mul luimioiuil pn/Kri. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 2. » Public ApcomitH of Caniuhi, for tin- fiscal yi-»r cndt-d ,%tli June, 18!«. rnwcntod 20th Alnrch, lS!t4, by Hon. (J. E. Foster. 2i(. Estimates for the fiscal year ending Slth .lune, IK'.t,") ; presented 2<(th March, 18!I4. 2h. Supplementary estimates for the financial year ending lUttli ■lune, IN'.M ; pr«- senteil 20th .June, 18!M. 2r. Supplementary Estinuttes for the year eudiiiK .'Wtii .lune, 18!!,"); presented 12th •July, J8iir> Printtil for loth ditlrihntion and tcmiioniil jtiipir». S. Lists of Sliareluilders in the Chartered Banks of Canada, iis on .Slst UivemlH-r, 18!I3. Presented 20th April, 181I4, by Hon. (J. ¥.. Foster J'rintid for lutth tlmtriliHtion anil msiiioiinl jxi/m rn. 8(1. |{e|iort of dividends reniainiuK un|>aid and unclaimed Imlunces in the chartered banks of Caniula, for five years and upwards, prior to iJlst December, 1803. I'resented 11th .Tune, 1804, by Hon. I J. E. Foster Printiii for hoth iliKtrihiitiun iiiid iHs.tioiial jmperi. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 3. 4. Repi)rt of the Sui^^intendent of Insurance for the year endinti; 31st Deeemlier, 1803. Printtd for lioth dietrihiilion and mmioiifd pa/iem. 4fj. Preliminary abstract of the business of Canadian life insurance comiHinies for the year ending ,Slst December, 1803. Presented 20th March, 1804. by Hon. (J. E. Foster. Printed for Intth dhtrihidioii and »e»»ionid piipert. 4fc. Abstract of statements of Insurance Comiunies in Canada for the year ending Slst l)eceml)er, 1803. Presented 7th May, 1804, by riir John Thompson Printtd for both distribution ntul ist»»ioiud pajiert. 4 67-58 Victoria. List of Seasional Papora. A. 1894 CONTEJITS OF VOLUME 4. S. K<-|Kirt iif the |)c|«rtnieiit of Tra r». ill. The Colonial Coiift-roiice, held nt Ottawa, 1H)I4 1'rinttil /■irludh ilintrihulion and trttUtmil itajicrt. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 6. 0. Tulili'H of tlif Trado and NHvi|;ittion of C'nnndu for tlic ti«cttl yi-iir undtil '■M\t\\ .liinc, 18!I3. I'ri'HPiitfd ■J7th Mikri-h, IH'.M, l>y lion. N. C. \ViiUa»-f I'rintnl fur Imth ilittnliulion uml »t iminnul /Hiprrt. 7. Inland Ki-vt'iiui'K of Canada. I'art I., Kxciw, etc., for tin- tinoal year ended 3<»th .Iiine, 1S!»3. Pre- Heiittil '2>nU March, IM'.M, liy Hon. .1. F. WikmI. . . I'riiitnt fur Ixith dinlrihutiitn ond mimiinuil /i<»yjcr». 7n. Inland Kevenutu of (;ainirt of the Dairy Coniniisitioner of Canada for lH!f_> !»3. PreNcnted IHtli M:iy, 1H!I4, hy Hon. T. M. I'aly I'riutid fur Imlli iHnlrihutiDn mid ftuniunnl pn/iir^. Xf. i{e|Hirt of the Director and <,)tticer§ of the Kx|H'riinental Farms for the year 18il3. Presented 2i»th A|iril, IM!(4, liy Hon. (i. K. Foster I'rintid for Imlh dintriliidiiiii it ml ninitiimiil jm/u m. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 7. Hil. The Schediilinn of Cattle in Kngland— the Canadian Case. Presented 4tli May, 1«!M, hy Hon. T. M. I hily I'riulid fur Imth diiitrdiKtiiiii mid .1 Hindnal /hi/h m. Hi: ,S|Mt'ial Ki'|«irt of the Kxeeutive Coniniissioiier on Awards on AKricidtural Implements at Chicajfo, 1«!(3. Presented 7tli May. 1SH4. hy Hon. T. M. Daly. I'rintid fur Imth ilintrihiitiDii mill lunniimiil impirf. ♦*/. Criminal .Statistics for the year IKI13 . . I'riiiird for Imth di.itriliiilinii mid ni.i.iiinin/ piipi m. **ii. He|>ort of the Executive Commissioner on the World's Columliian Kx|s>sition. I'riidid fur Imth dinlriliiitiitn mid Himiiiinid fipi rf. Hli. SjM'cial Ke|)ort on the production of and markets for Butter and Cheese. Printed for Inith dUlrilmtiim niut urm'iiiiint jutper*. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 8. •. Annual Kc|iort of the Minister of Puhlic Works, for the Hscal yi-ar endei'|Nirtiiifiit iif Miiriiii- itiul KiKln-rifK, fur \,\w tiwuil yi'Hr vikIim) 3llth Jini«\ 1S'.»3 Fiwherieit. I'riiwntwl lltli April, IWM, l>y Sir ('li«rl<« UiliU-rt TiipiKT. I'rititfil for inAh ilittriliution iinil »ti»ioniil pnpi m. 11<(. Kr|«irt iif tlic Cliniriiinii cif the llf StPiiiiiUiut liis|Mt'tiiiii, cU-., fur cali-mlar yt-nr cndi'il HlNt |)ft't'lilli«'r, 1S!)H I'rintiil Jiir IkiIIi ithtrilmtion iiiiil lunninniil pUfMrn. CONTENTS OK VOLUME 10. IS. Rfiiortof tlip PoHtiimwttr < iciuTRl, for the year «-iiiIih1 WHli .Iiiiu-, Wt'A. PrewiitHH !lth April, 1H)M, liy Sir Adolplic Ciiriiii I'rinlul for lioth ilitiriliutinii ami MtniDiuil pn/u m. IS. AmiiiiiiI K»'|K)rt'|M)rt of tli<> ( ■t'oloi^iual Survey l>e|)artiiieiit, for the your IHiKi, l'reith March, IWM, hy Hrt of the Department of I'ublic Printing; and >Statioiiery of Canada, for the ynar ending ;iOth .lime, I8!l.'t, with a partial report for servic** during six inonths ending Slat Decenilier, 18!I3. I'rewnted a3rd May, 1«!M, liy Hon. J. Costigan. I'rinteil for liofh dittribution mid letgional puptm, \it. ReiKirt of the .Toint Lilirarians of Parliament for the year 18!I3. Presented l.'ith March, 18!(4, liy Hon. Mr. S|H'aker I'rinUd for immioiiiil piptrs onlj). IW. KeiKirt of the Minixter of .fiistice as to Penitentiaries in Canada, for the year endeHon. J'rintal for Ixith dittrihu'ion m. 19. R«!|Hirt of the De|iartinent of Militia and Defence of Canada, for the year endef I'viiliMU'c tHkcii in tlic |in>viiirf i>( <^iii'Ih-o, I'rinlrit fur lutlh ilintrilnition miil »i imiomtl fxiprrt. CONTENTS OF VOLUME 14. 91. Hoyiil rominiMMion mi tln' Ijiniior Trattio. Miiiiitt'n nf ••viili'iiet' fiikfu in the |iriivin('i"< "f Muiiitr». CONTENTS OF VOLUME 16. 91. Kuyal Cunimi^Mimi un the Lii|U Kdward Island Railway mhicc the l»t ilay of March, 1K!»2, the naiiic of each ein|iliiyee disniinHed, the date of each di»iiiis»al, the reaMotm for s\ich di.iniisxals ; also the names of employeex reinstateil, if any. I're«eiited "Jntli Mar>li, IM!M. Mr. I'irrii X'lt pritilnl. 94. Return to an onler of the HouHe nf ConimmiK, dated 3l)th March, ISIK), for co|>ieM nf all dndence, re|MirtH of tlie su|ierintendent of the Chamlily canal, reports t)f experts and otlieix, plans, agreements, pro|Hisals and decisions of the government in relation to the claim of .loseph Lacouture, of the parish of ISt. Lue, tor ilanuiKeH causeil to his pro|HTty liy the waters of tiie t'liamlily caual. Presented 'Jttth March, 1H!M. -Mr. Lmrriiiu . . . .Nul /iriiitnl. 95. Statement of all su|H>raniuiations anil retiring allowances in the civil service, giving the name and rank of each person superatuniated op retin-d, his salary, age and length of service ; his allowance and cause of retirement, whether vacancy has lieen tilled liy promotion or new ap|Miintment, &c., for the year ended aist Decemlier, 18!I3. Pi-ewnted 20th March, IHJM, l>y Hon. (i. K. Foster. .V"^ ftrhiliil. 98(1. Return to an order of tlii' House of Commons dati'er of iK'rnuuient civil servants in each department, inside and outside seivici , w ho eontrihute to the suiH'rannuation fund, and the gross amount of wages paid. l'resente>l 'J.">th .Vpril, 1H!M. — Mr. Mc.Miilliii N"t firiiiliil. 9B. Statement of ;'.\|>enditiire on aceount of miscellaneous unforeseen expennes, fnnn 1st July, 1S'.I,'{, to date. I'resentid I'uth March, IM'.il, hy Hon. C. K. Foster Xot i>riiitnl. 97. Statement of Governor Ceneral's \Vi.'->'ant8 issued since last seHHimi of parliament, on account of the fiscal years 18(12 !(.'i and IS'.W !I4, iu r.ccordance with the Consolidated Hevcnue and Audit Act, section 32, tiubset:tion '< Presented 20th March, 1S1*4, liy Hon. (J. K. Foster Xnt printed. 9H. Papers and cc)rres|Kmdence relative to ihe payment tu the Canadian Pacific Railway C(>m[iany of amounts de«lucted from their sulwidy in the year 1883. Presented 20th March, 1894, hy Hon. <». E. Foster Nut printeil. 90. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 20th March, 1894, for copies of papers and corres|K)ndence relating to charges made against Mr. Justice Palmer, or to his resignation and acceptance thereof. Presenttsl 20th March, 18it4.--.l/r. iMiins. Not printitl. «BP 57-68 Victoria. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1894 VOLUME n— Continued. so. Return of a|)i>licationM fur regJHtration under the proviHinnH of chapter 131, RevJHed Stututfs cif Canada, "An Act reH|K*(-ting Trade UniunM." PreHented 20th March, IHiH, 1)y Hun. .T. Costit^nn. Ifot printeil. 31. List of public ottifprM tu whom oumniiggJonH have isxued under chapter 1!) uf the ReviMed StututPH uf Canada, durint; tiiu year lH!t3. I'reHeuted 20th March, 18114, by Hun. J. CoHtigan. I'riiUiil in JWi. /')'. 8)1. Order eHtablishinft certain rules in res|H'ct of matters therein mentioned, in the Kxcheartment to the said overseers. 4. Of the rejiorts of the two said overseers fur the years 18!ll, 18!t2. Presented 5th .Fune, 1894.— Afr. Hnrirwxt Not iirinttii, •86. Return to an addre.ss of the House uf Cumnions to his excellency the (Jovemor Oeneral, dateetitiuus, unlers in cuuncil, and all corre8|H)iidence H'latiiiK to the dismissal of Timothy Mct^ueen as fishery overseer in the jwuiity of Kent, Ontario. I'resented Sth May, 1894. -^r. Camplicll Not printed. 88c Return to an address uf the House uf Commons to his excellency the (Juvernor (Jeneral, datent tu the minister of marine and fisheries, from 1st OctulsT, 1893, tu tliis date, res|>ectin(? tlie dismissal uf I. B. Chevalier, of llier- ville, from tlie |iost u! fishery overstn-r ; and uf any communicatinn sent from the (fovernmeiit to the said L H. Chevalier. Pi-esented 11th May, 1894. -.Vr. Bechard Not jirintid. S8>/. Retimi tu an address uf the House of Cmnmuns to his excellency the (Joveruor (ieneral, dated 30th March, 1894, for a return of all pa|iei-s, corres|K)ndetice, telctfrains, re|HU'ts to and orders in cuuncil, tugether with all ilepartuientiil orders relating tu tlie discharge from oHice as su|H"Mntendent uf St. Paul's island and kee|ier uf Ingonish island, uf Mr. Sanmel CampU'll, ur relating tu his sujieran- miation aUowance. Presented 2.'iir, (irand Manan, and n( tlie weirs at that place. Pre.senteetitions received by the department with regard to the same. Presentetl 21st June, 1891. — ^fr. AfclJreyor Not printed. 84. List of all lauds sold by the Canadian Pacific Railway Cnnipany from the 1st OctolsM-, 1892, to the 1st Octulier, 1893. Presented 21st March, 1894, by Hun. T. M. Daly .Not printed. 84a. Return under resolution of the 20th February, 1882, in so far as the sar.ie is furnished by the depart, ment of the interior, ies|)ecting the Canadian Pacific Hallway Company. Presented 28th March, 1894, by Hon. T. M. Daly Not printed. 84'j. Return to an oitler of the House of Commons, dateil loth March, 1893, for copies of all documents, memorials and corresiHindence Itetween the government and the Sorel Isiard uf trade and others, in relation to the granting of a subsidy to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, for the re- building of a bridge at 8t. Michel d'Yamaska. Presented 10th April, 1894.— J/;', linineaii. Nut printed. 8 57-58 Victoria. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1894 VOLUME n— Continued. 84c. Return t«i an addresH of the tSenate to his exct-llfiicy the (Jovernor (Jeneral, dated 5th April, 18!»4, for a Hcliedule of the paswiiger and freight ruteti of the Canaiiian PaciHc Railway (Vinipany, incliidiii); tlie rates from St. Paul and MinneaiMilix to the HealMiard, now in forte. I'renented HOtli -April, m>4.~ Hon. Mr. Boiilton Not printid. S4(f. Return to an addrenK of the Senate to his excellency the Governor (Jeneral, datol 17th May, 1894, for a schedule of the passeuKer anil freight rates of the Intercolonial Railway ; and the revenue de- rived by the Canadian I'acitic Railway C^ini|HUiy on its western division. l>etween Port Arthur and Calgary, for the financial years ending l«!>2and 18!»3. Presented (5th .Tune, 18!M. -Hon. .Mr. Hniilton. Not print I it. .18. Return of orders in cmnicil, in accordance with sulMection ('/.) of section 38 of the regulations for the survey, administration, dis|K)sal and management of Dominion lands within the 4U-mile railway lielt in the province of British Columliia. Presented 27th March, 1894, hy Hon. T. M. Daly. Not printril. .tSa. Return of orders in council of 18!).3 relating to the department of the interior, in ..ccorflance with clause ttl of the Dominion Lands Act, chapter .")4, Revised Statutes of Canada. Presented 27tli March, 1894, by Hon. T. M. Daly Not printnl. 85fc. Statement in reference to fishing Uiunty |iaynients for 18',l2-93, required by chapter iKi of the Revised Statutes of Canada. Pi-esented 28th March, 1894, by Sir Charles Hibliert Tupper Not printnl. 86. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 1st March, 1893, for copies of all reports, dcK'U- ments, maps, manu.scripts and corr(,'s|sindence in relation to e>:plorating exis'ditions lieretofore made to James Hay and llud.son Bay. Presented 27th March, 1894. -. I//'. Joncn.i . . Not printnl. 87. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (Jovernor (Jeneral, dated 2ttth March, 1894, for a return showing co|)ien of all |)etitions or coninumications to the government or to any memlM-r thereof, or to iiis excellency, a-tking for any interfewnce with the sentence pa.-'seil liy his lordship the Hon. Mr. .lustice Rose on Messrs. Mc(ireevy and Connolly, of all leplies thereto and all corres|Hindence lietween any menilH-r of tlie government luid any I'ther |SMson on the subject of commutation of such .sentence : of all medical re|Kirts made in regard to either .siiil Mc(ireevy or Connolly, whilst undergoing such sentence ; of all reisjrts or recomnietidatidiis on the said subject, by any menilier of the government to his e.xcellency, and of all replies thereto and of all orders in co\nicil in anywise liearing u|)on the subject of the comiiiiilation of said sentences. Presented 29tli March, 1894. .!/;•. .Unlork Not printnl. 3N, Detailed statement of all Intnils and securities registered in the department of the secretary of state of Canada, since last return, 1S93, submitted to the parliament of Canada under section 23, chapter 19, of the Revised Statutes of Canada. Presented 29th March, 1894, by Hon. .). Costigan. Not fO'ilitnl, 80. Return to an onler of the House of Cinnmoiis, dated 2lttli March, 1894, for a return showing the dates in each year since May .Vli, 1887, when the Public Aicount.s, the Appropriation Accounts, and the Trade and Navigation Returns of Canada, for the next preceding K.-.cal year, have been published and ready for distribution; and when the saiil accounts and returns have U'en issued to the senators and niiMiiliers of t'.e House of Ccunmons of Canada in i juli of the years aforesuid. Presented »Mi .March, 1894.-.l/r. Charlton Not printnl. •40. Retmn to nn order of the Hou.sc of Connuons, dated 13th March, 189,3, for a retmn showing the numlx-r of school teachers engaged in teaching in the North-west 'I'erritories, and the length of time each was engaged during the past year, with the salary ivceived ; also the numlsr of pupils attending each school, anil all siunces of revenue for the maintenance of schools. Presenile! 2nd April, 18i:4.— .1/r. 6'ls for which such amounts were |inid, and the religiouR denomination to which such scliiM>ls iK-hinged. ". A statement of the amoimts paid by 9 67-58 Victoria. List of Sessional Papew. A. 1894 VOLUME 17— Continued. the Hiidtton Bay ComiNiny, or by itH agents, to the itchools then exixting in the teiritorieti fonuinK to-day the province of ^{^nitolm. 4. A copy of all memoranda and instructionH Herviug as luutiH for the negotiations as a reHult of whieli Maiiitolta l)ecame one of the provinces of tiie confwlera- tioii ; together with a copy of the minutes of the deliberation of the |ierHoiig charged on lM)th Iiarts to settle the coiirlitiong of the creation of the province of Manitolu and of itH entrance into the confearq^ion of "The Manitoba Act." ;">. A copy of the dehpatches and instructions from the imiierial government to the government of Canada on the subject of the entrance of the province of Manitoba into the pulation of the Territories, and the guarantees of protection to be accorded to the ac(|uire(l rights, to the proj^rty, to the cusUmuh and to the institutions of that population by the govermuent of Canada, in the settlement of the difficulties which marked that period of the history of the Canadian West. (i. A copy of the acts passed by the legislature of Manitoba relating to education in that province and e8i)ecially of the first act passed on this subject after the entruice of the said province of Manitoba into the confederation, and of the laws existing >i|H)n the same subject in the said province immeect to schools passed by the government of .Manitolui or by the advisory board, in virtue of the laws passed in IHiMt by the legislature of Manitoba relating to public schools and the department of education. S. A copy of all corres|Kmdence, |)etitionK, memoranda, resolution-, briefs, factiims, judgments (as well of first instance as in all stages of apiieal), lelating to the sch(K)l laws of the said province of Manitoba, since the 1st .lune, 18!K), or t.. the claims of catholics on this subjtict ; and also a copy of all reiKirts to the privy council and of all orders in council relating to the same subject since the same date. Presented 2lst March, IH'M. — Hun. Mr. Hi riiiir Printed fi>r Imth (lintrifjiitioii iiiul ginniDnal iMiiicrn. AOIi. Return to an address of the House of Conuuons to his excellency the (Jovernor (teneral, dated 30tb March, 18114, for copies of all papers, [K'titions, letters, re|)orts, minutes and orders in council ri'S|M'ctiug the schf)ol law of J'rince Kdward Island, intituled " The Public Sch(K)ls Act, IS""." Presented 23rd April, 18'.t4. — Mr. Lirlnir Printed for hiitlt diftriliutidii and seniiioiKtl piipirn. 4<»<'. Return to an addi-ess (jf the Senate to liis excellency the (lovemor General, dated !(th April, I8!I4, for copies eal made in the name of the Roman catholic minority of tiie pi'ovince of Manitoba, in reference to the selioiil laws of that province; also copies of reports to and ordeis in coiuicil in reference to the. same : also copies of the case s\ibmitted to the supreme court of Canada respecting aforesaid api«'al, and iuchiiiiug factums and all uuiterials in connection therewith, and copies of all judgments rendered and answers given by said court on or to the questions referre I to them. Presented 27th .lune, 18!t4. — Mr. LiiHiritrc Printiit for Hinnioinil piiperKonlii. 41* Retnrn to an addrj'ss of the Senate to his excellency the Governor (ieneral, elated 2(ttli March. 18!!.'', for a copy of all documents in relation to the demand of Michel Gosselin, Half-breed, living at RoselM-rry, Manitoba, and claiming indemnity for losses sustained during the troubles in the North-west in 18t>!) and 1870. Also a copy of all corresiwndence exchanged l)etween the Dominion government and the said Michel Gosselin in relaticm to the said claim. Piesenteseroi>erty, and its total cost up to date. Presented I'.tth June, ISiM. — Mr. /tinii.i. . . .Not printnl. 45. Return to an aildress of the House of Conunons t*) his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated 20th March, l.Slt3, for copies of all corres|H)ndence between the gov. Nmnber of students now in attendance. (I. Total anio\uit of salaries paid each year, to the different persons employed in connection with the college. 7. Name of the connnandant of the coUegi' ; liis salary, per- (piisites, if any, in the way 4, for a return of the receiptK and e.\|)en(liturPH to dates of 10th April, 18114, and 10th April, 1H93. Presentenditures chargeable to consolidate)! fund from 1st July, 1S!(3, to 1st May, 18)»4, and also for same |>eriiKl from Ist .luly, 18!»2, to Ist May, 18!t3. Presentwl 11th May, 18!t4. — Sir HichiirU C'iirtwri(iht Nat printed. 58. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (Jovernor (ieiicral, dated loth April, 18)(4, for copies of all correg|)on(lence l)etwe«'n Mr. L. Vankoughnet anal council of St. Luc, in the county of St. .lean, in relation to the constniction of a swing bridge im the Chambly canal, cip|H)site the south-east end of Ste. Tht-rese island, in the Richelieu river. Presenteil 4th .luiie, 1804.- Jfr. Bi'ckiint Not printid. 57/(. Return to an addivss of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor (Jeiieral, dated 28tli -M.iy, 1804, for : 1. Copies of all the rejsirts of the engineers recommending that certain changes lie made in the original contriM't, istth in the materials and the nature of the works entering into the cimstriiction if the locks and other iiiascmry on sections 1 and 2 of the Soulanges canal, giving the reasons why such changes should be made and the names of the engineers who recoiiimended such changes. 2. Copies of all the corres|x)iideiice exchanged iMftweeii the engineers, the de|iart- inent of railways and canals, the contractor and other persons in connection with those changes, and copies of all ortlers in council in relation thereto. Presented 0th .Tune, \X'.H. - Afr. Turle. Not printed. 12 57-58 Victoria. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1804 VOLUME n^Continued. iriiital. iintiuniiifr 'M. .\fr. ■fH Olllll. atet) »lth lotlwiii in |ri-H caiiiil. Iirlntal. ated 2.")tli from iHt uniciiml iri(lg»' on ion river. I>rlntiil. xtvd 2Htli chan({<'s ring into 111, giviiin iniieiidpd e (U'lwrt- cliangi'!*, T'irtc. t printed. i7c. Return to an order of tlie House of Cuniinons, datt*d Kith April, 1804, for copies of all advertisements inviting tenders for the conHtruction of sections 1 and 2 of the Houlanges canal ; also copies of specifications cxinnected with said work, copies of extensions of said i|)eciticatiartment of railways and canals in this matter, copies of all reiHii ts of engineers since the letting of the contract. Presented 14tli June, 18iH.— iVr. TV/r/c Not printrd. VId. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 14th May, 1894, for : 1. Copies of all corresjion- dence lietween the department of railways, the minister of public works and any other |>ersnns in relation to sections 12 and 13 of the Soulanges canal. 2. Copies of the call for tenders and of all tenders received. 3. Copies of contracts awarded. Presented 14th July, 1894. —,Vr. yorfi. ^^i)t printal . 59. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated L'th July, 1891, for copies of all corresisnidence relating to application for increase of saliiry of Judge Johnstone, county court judge for Halifa.\ county. Nova Scotia. Presented 25th April, 1894. — ^fr. Frimtr Xut printed . 5©. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 30th March, 1894, for a return showing the names of all prisoners who have died in jienitentiaries in Canada during the last ten years, with the caiise of death and the length of their last sickness in each case. Presented 25tli Ajiril, 1894. —.l/r. Miirtin Not printed. 50a. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Oovernor (leneral of the lOtli April, 1894, for a statement showing amount of receipts each month for gate money at Kingston (lenitentiaiy between 1st January, 188", and Ist January, 1894. Statement showing (lis|Kisition of these moneys, including statement showing the amount of those moneys deiKisited in any banks, with the names of such banks and particulars us to whose credit siuli deiKjsits were made. Pre- sented 20th .Vpril, 1894.— J//-. Muloek Not printnl. 50fc. Return to an address of the House of Conunons to his excellency the tiovernor (Jeneral, dated 13th March, 1893, for a statement showing ; ('(.) Amotnit of money received as visitors' entrance fees at the Kingston penitentiary during each year from 31st January, 1885, to 1st February, 1893. (6.) Payments out of said moneys to the receiver general, and dis|)osition of such fluids. |c. Il'ar- ticulars of gissls mimufactured and work done at said institution for any of its otticers, showing who supplied the material for such goods, what sums were charged to said otiicers for said g(Msls, and what sums have been actually paid during each of said years for said gissls. (>/. ) (Quantities of coal oil and gas supplied micIi otficers, amount paid therefor, and when. ('.I Amount of laundry work done at said institution during said dates, for whom done, amount charged and paid therefor, with dates of such , aymentsand names of [lersons making such payments. Presented 2t>tli April, \»\i\.—.Mr..Miili>ek .Not prinlid. HHc. Return (in part) to an address of the House of Comnions to his excellency the (lovernor (Jeneral, t!ated .SOtli Marcli, 1894, for copies of all charges brought to the attention of tlie government or any department since 1H91 in ret;ard toany matters connected with the Kingston iH'nitentiary, and the Pritish Columbia penitentiary ; of all ap|Hiintnieiit of persons to make investigations into any such charges, including their instructions ; of all correspondence betwi'en any of sucli persons and any memlier of the government or department ; of ,all eviilence taken on any such ini|iiiries ; of all rejMirts thereon, including any schedules in connection with such reports ; and of all other docu- ments and paiiers relating to any alleged irregularities in c an mldrwH cif the Hoiiw of Commoiii* to HIh excellency the Governor General, (lateortH made to the (lu|>artment of the interior or to the suiM-rin- tenrlent general of Inrlinn aifiiirH aM to the value of tlie Thoiisund i«landH and any offers received for the purchase of the wune. Piesented 2(ith April, 1S04.— .Vr. Afilh f BolhieellJ. Printed for n imlp . ••. Return tseanx, river Aiix-Rats and river La->Seine, in the electoral district of Provencher. Presented 1st May, 1894. Mr. LaRiviere Jfnt printed. AS. Return to an order of the House of Commons, datwl ,SOth March, 1894, for a return of all i)a|)er9 and corres|X)n'lence relative to a claim for compensation for railway damages made by one Charles Cottin, of Midgell, Prinet; Edward Island, in the railway department of the government. Pre- sented Ist May, 1894.— .1/r. Ihirien iVo< printed. •4. Return to an order of the House of Commons, flated 23rd April, 1894, for the report of the commis- sion apiK>inted to in(|uire into all matters concerning the Trent Valley canal. Presented Ist May, 1894. — .Vr. Hmihrx Not printed. •5. Return to an order of the HcniHe of Commons, dated 25th April, 1894, for a return giving the amount paid out f)f the Six Nation Indians' fund (by way of gift or loan) to individual members from the year 188(> to date, stating in each case : The name of the ]>erson, the fact of whether gift or loan, the date when |)aid, the amount, th«i rf-ason for the gift or loan, the autlioiity for such gift or loan, the ccmditions on which such loan was made, the provision for repayment, the amount repaid- Presented 2nd May, 1894.— .1/r. Putermn CJirantJ Xnt printed. 65(1. Return to an order of tlie House of Commons, datiKl Kith April, 1894, for a return showing the amount of money that has U-en |>aid out of the funds of the Six Nation Indians for the payment of debts incurred by individual niembevs thereof since the year 188(>, and giving : 1. The names of the several jK-rsons who incurrertion thereof that has lieen paid. 2. The names of the cteditors to whom the payments were made, th<' dates when i)aid, with the total sum paid to each of such creditors ; and stating in each case the authority given for incurring tiie debt, tlie authority for ])ayment of the same, and whether such ainountn have l)C'en repaid to the fund in whole or in part out of the annuities of tiie individuals on whose account the payments were made, and whether s\ich was the condition on which such payments were authorized. Presented 14th May, 1894. — ^fr. Putrrmn, ( Hrnnt) Nut printed. Return to an address of tlie House of Commons to his excellency the Governor ( Jeneral, dated 2oth April, 1894, for copies of all |)etitions fnmi the Indians of the Saugeen reserve claiming the exclu- sive right of fishing in French bay, lake Huron, of all answers to the .same, and of all departmental ordei's in reference to that subject. Pnwented IGth May, 1894. — Mr. Luttrier Not printed. Supplementary return to no. (>,%. Presented 23rd July, 1894. -iW/-. Laurier Nut printed. Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the (Jovernor General, dated 10th April, 1894, for copies of all petitions or connniinications to the governor general, or the government, or any niemlier thereof, asking for interference with the death sentence passed by Mr. Justice Harrison U|Min the two Chelialis Indians, Peter and .Jack, in November, 1893, for the munler of the late .-Vlliert Kdwatd Pittendrigh, in New Westminster, British Cohimbia, on the 27th October, 1892 ; of all replies thereto, and all corresisnidence between any member of the government and any other (lerson on the subject of commutation of such sentence; of all re|)orts or recommendations on the said subject by any member of the government to his excellency, and of all replies thereto, and of all orders in council in anywise liearing u|H)n the subject of the commutation of said death sentence to impriscmment for life. Presented 14th May, 1894. — Bon. Mr. Miirlnnen. .Not printed 66. Retimi to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1894, for all papers and correspon- dence in connection with the establishiu^nt of a government cattle ranche near Kort Macleod, North-west Territories, including the purchase of cattle for said ranche ; the disixisal of said cattle, and th, management and disposition made of said ranche. Also a statement showing the amount of moneys paid for cattle placed uiM)n said ranche, and for all other expenses incurred in connec- tion with the same, also the total amount of moneys received for the sale of cattle from said ranche, and all other sources in connection with the same ; which statement shall show the balance 14 6S/,. 6Sc. 6S(/. 57-68 Victoria. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1894 1, 18it4, or any ^al•^ison the late 18))2 ; mid any dationt) there ti., d death printed rrt'spon- lacleod, d cattle, aiiiount connec- [)in isaid balance VOLUME n— Continued. to the credit or debit of Haid raiiche on the KrHt day of January last, and Hhall furtlier give the naine!4 of all parties indebted to said ranche atc<)\int for cattle piirchaHe2 and 18!I,S, and a list of settlers so brought, showing their names and locations. Presented 11th May, 18i)4.-~A/r. jl/rtrfiH Notprintat. 6M. Return to an order of the House .if Commons, dated .3()th April, 1894, for copies of all conmiunica- tions received by the minister of agriculture in relation to the establishment of the bureau of lalxiur statistics for the Dominion. PresentiHl 14th May, 18!)4.- Mr. Lepinr Nnl priiitiil. OO. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1804, for a return showing the (|uantity of Ijutter manufactured at the experimental creameries, established at Klgiu anip to the beginning of the confederation. Presented 23rd May, 1804. - Mr. A iiiiiot Not printed . 74(1. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated loth A](ril, 1804, for copies of all orders in coimcil fnnii the origin of confefleration \ip to the year 1870, inclusive, respecting any drawback or Ixmnty with res|x)ct to the building of Canadian shiiw, barciues or other vessels. Presented 30th May, 1804. — Mr. Am/iot Not print) il 75. Return to a > order of the House of Commons, dated 7th May, 1804, for copies of all calls for tenders, tenders received, contracts made, corresiiondence, telegrams, letters and pa|H>rs relative to the public vvork (wharf or breakwater) at Grand Ktang, Ca|ie Hreton ; U)gether with a statement of all moneys advanced or paid on such contract, with dates of (layment. Presented 20th May, 1804. —Mr. iJariea Not printed. 15 7«. 7!e>( 7». 74. 57-68 Victoria. List of Sessiona! Papera. A. 1894 VOLUME n— Continued. 7Sii, Ketuni tn an order nf the IIouMf of CoiiininnH, (lat<-(l Oth February, lMt)8, for ropieH (if all lettem, |ietitiiiiiH, HtirveyH and re|iortH in the iioHMeHHion of the );overniiient, relating to the threnteneairM un the breakwater at Snmlford, in the ixtunty of Yarmouth, X.S. I'rexented 2Stth May, \H'M.- .Ur. Flint ...Not />rinte(l. 7Hli. Return to an onler of the HoUNe of ConiniimH, dateth May, 18U4. ~ .l/r. Wihh. Not /irhifed. Tile. Keturii to an ortler of the HouHe of ConimonK, tlater Intnl. 7!lil. Return to an order nf the Houm<' of CominouH, dated Int M-irch, 1S!I3, for a Htatement showinft ; 1. Wluit \s the total Kuni H|)ent by the i^ivernment Hince confedenttiiMi in each province of the Dom- inion on the public workn claHsitied HH (1) harUmrH, pierH unil breakwaters, (2) improvements of rivers, and (3) dredging' and dredges. 2. How nuich of the sinn srt of any in- (|uiry held under the authority of the department of publ'c works with a view to estimate the losses inflictefi on projirietors of the connnime of ^'aniiiska, by the erection of .1 dam in the Yamaska river. Presented 4tli .Tune, 18it4.— .Ur. lyoitrirr Not i>riiiti<(. 776. Return to an luldress of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, datetl •StJtli March, 18!(4, for copies of all letters, papers and statements in connection «itl'. award- ing contract to William H. Davis it Sons for constructing a dam at Sheik's island, in connection with the Cornwall canal. Presented oth iJune, 18H4. — Afr. Chiirlton Not printed. 77c Supplementary return to no. 77<<. Presented 15th June, 1894. — Alr.ChnrUon Not /irintrd. 7W. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (Jeneral, dated lOth April, 1894, for copies of all petitions, letters, jiluns, deeds and other doc\niients res|)ecting the claim of the Hurons of Lorette in relation to the seigniory of Sillery. Presented 2!lth May, IH'.H.- Afr. Fremont Not printed. 70. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th April, 1894, for a return showing the amount of timl)er dues collected at Quebec for each year for th" last ten years. The (|uantity of timber culled each year, and the wages paid to cullers and staff. Presented 30th May, 1894.— .!//•. AfcAfuUen Not printed. 16 A. 1894 67-58 Victoria. List of SesBioiial Papers. A. 1894 •H l)( all IcttWH, tlirentciiHl (|hh ' of Variiioiith, . . Not /irinlfd. i)f tilt' ri'|Mirt of \)4.-Mr. W,hh. Not /trinled. nil rfiHirtH, cor- )f reimir of the . . . \iit /iriiitrtl. t Hhowiiiff : 1. c<" (if the Doni- ii|>riiv)'iiii-ntH of •ovincf of l^uf- iiey tlic)(overn- ioii of the new •■veiuien of tin- he inttrcNt (hit» (1) How iiiucli I tile cotiHtrtic- PlfMCIltcd 12tli . . Nut /irintid, 1 rt'tiirn givitiK- " coiitratitor or l«cl ; tli« qiiitn- TK timt imido ly, 18!M. -JA/-. . . JVof /iriiitxt. 'ttcr.s, rf|)ort8 iiilition of tlie )Osi' of repair- A'ot priiiti'tl. of all sums contract and Nut /irhitdl. of any in- ■stimati) thf (lam in the A'lit iiriiited. ■iK'ial, dated " id; award- 1 connpccion Hot printcil. Not /iriiitnl. dated l(»th r(^f|)ecting' 2!ltli May, Viit printed. howing the luantity of IHiM.-.l/r. Vut printed. VOLUME n—Continued. 79n. R<, 10 and 17, east of the 1st princijial meridian, and also on the Whitemouth river. 2. To whom said timlHT has iH'en dis|K(sed of. S. In what way said tinilH'r has l)e»m dispet.'. (/■) At auction where only applicants for the lierth or limit were invited to bid. (r) j{y private ai>plication. ((f) If in neither of the ways above mentioiuKl, then stating in what way dis|H>sal and grant was made. (( ) Length of public notic*' 'n each case when limits were sold either at piiblic auction or by other form of public com|M'tition. Also a summary statement giving total area granted and total an;ount of Isinuses received. I'resented 12th .Tuly, 18!t4. — Mr. (.'hiir/ton Not printed. ♦*0. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 2Sth May, 1S94, for copies of all corresisnidence l)etween 1). J. Hughes, Kstj., county judge of Klgin, Out., and tim officials of the government printing office, in regard to the jirinting of the last revised vot«'rs' list for Klgiii. Presented 4th >Iune, 18!I4. — Mr. C'lii ii Nut printed. **l. Return to an order of House of the Connnons, dated 14th May, 1H!I4, for a return showing tho aniximt and value of ciucible ste<'l iniiH>rted into Canada free of duty in each year sinct^ 18H5, under the provisiims of order in council of (ith Novemln'r, 1885. Also amount and value of last- ings and mohair cloth im|Hirted into Canada free of duty in each ye.ir since 18H,"), under the pro- visions of order in cfiuncil of (ith November, 1885. I'lesented 4th .fiuie, 18',I4. — Mr. ('hdr/lnn. Nut printed. **lr(, Ret\ini to an order of the House of Commons, dated 14th May, 18!)4, for a return sliowing the am.mnt and vahie of hatters' luiuds, bindings, tips, and sides and linings, Uith tips and sides, iniiK)rteJ into Canada in each year since 1885, uiuler provisions of order in council of 5tii .hily, 188(). Also amount and value of steel strip for buckthorns and plain strip fencing imported into Canada free of duty since 1885, under jirovisions of order in council of 17th .Tuly, 188(1. Also amount and value of wire ro|H' im|M)rted into Canada free of duty since 188.5, under provisions of order in council of 17th .Tuly, 188t). Also amount and value of twisted brivss and co|>|K'r wire im- |X)rted into Canada free of duty since 18.S.5, under jirovisions of order in council of 20th .Inly, 188(!. Also amo\int and value of y.irn spun from the hair of the alpaca or angora goat, im|Kirted into Canada free of duty since 1885, under provisions of order in council of 18th XovemlMT, 18vSr(. Presented 4th .Time, 18'.»4. — .1/r. Charlton Not printed. H\h. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 14tli May, 18!>4, for a return showing the (juantity and value of felloes of hickory W(kh1 imixirted into Canada in each year free of duty since 1887, under pnivisions of order in conned (jf IGth Novemtxr, 18,88. Also (piantity and value of homo spring steel wire, smaller than no, 1) and not smaller than no. 1,5, imiKirted into Canada free of duty in each year since 1887, for the use of numufactui-ers of mattresses, imder provisions of order in council of (ith I)eceml>er, 1888. Presented 4th .Tune, 1804, — Mr. (Viarlton. . . .N^ot printed. 81c. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, date'l 14th May, 18114, for a return showing the v.alue of sweat leathers impot'tiKl into Canada free of duty in each year since 188(1, undiT provi.'^ions of order in council of Ist .Inly, 1887. Also the valut! of sq\iare reeds, rawhide centres, textile leather or rubber heads, thumbs and tips, and steel, iron or nickel caps for whip ends imiKjrted into Canada free of duty in each year sinc(,' 188(!, under provisions of order in council of .Tuly 2nd, 1887. Also value of copper rollers for use in calico printing im|iorted into Canada free of duty in each year since 188G, under ]>rovi8ions of order in covuicil of 22nd November, 1887. Also (luantity and 2 n 67-68 Victoria. List of iSeseional Papers. A. 1894 VOLUME n— Continued. valiio uf 8t<«>l (if no. 12 Kt^uge and down to no. 'M giiiiKu iniiNirtiMl int4> CanaI and worHtcd, ini|H)rtnilence since the 1st of January, 18!H(, U'tween the government and any member thereof and any person, linn or com|iany in relation to establishing a fast .Atlantic steamship line U'tween (.'unada antl for ilUlriliutinn uiilii. (t4a. Supplementary return to no. 84. Presented 2*Jtli June, 18U4.- -Mr. Mnlm-k: Printed fur dittribution oiilii. S4t. Further supplementary return to no. 84. Presented 5th July, 1804.— iVr. MiiUirk. Printed for diftribution onlii. US. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated Ctli February, 1803, for copies of all corre8|Kindence, |ia|iers and documents, not already laid before the house, in reference to negotiations anti commimications between the goveniment and the United .States, in reference to reciprocity, canal tolls and wrecking and towing. Presented llth .Tune, 1804.— .V/'. 7'm(/((/p Not printed. 86. Return to an luldress of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 30th March, 1804, for copies of all corn's] londence, instructions, orders in council and reix>rta about the lioundary line between Alaska and British Columbia not already laid before this house. Presented llth June, 1804. — Sir Hector Liinyevin Xot printed. 87. Retiini to an order of the House of Commons, dated 7th May, 1804, for a return showing in detail all sums of money in the hands of the government held oa security for the |ierformance of contracts LHimpleted, the name of each contractor who deixisited the money, date of each such deposit, and amount of interest accrued on each dejxMiit. Presentexc)'ll<'iu'y tlif (iovi-nior (!<-ncrnl, dutitl 7th May, 1S!M, for cupifH of nil <'orrfN|Miiiilt>iici' UawtTii .1. M. WriKht, M.I)., VS., unil the ffovrrn liKiiit, or iiiiy iik'IiiImt, ilrpurtiiii'iit or ottii-cr of tin- (fovcriiiiK'Ht, iiiul of iill corn'KiHiinli'iiff U'twcH tlif (Jraiul Trunk Uailway ami tlio govrniiiifiit, or any ini'mlx-r, (if|iartuii'nt or ottin-r of the ({ov- frnnifnt, and of all corrftiHimU'iicr lpft\vft'tw<'«'n tin- ini|i<'rial aiitho- riti«'», or any out- on tlii-ir U'lialf, and tlif (fovfrnnifnt of (^aniicla, or any nicnilM'r, df|iartMifiit or ofticfr tlifrfof, from, and including, tlif yfar IXX'J until, and iiiclndinK. tlif yfar IH!»1, rf^'ardiiiK tin- insiH'ction of cattif iiansinK tlirougli Caiiiula from tlif I'nitfd Statfs. Pri-HfiUfd 21i, ISIM. Mr. Afii/iick . . . I'rinlnl fur ft minntil /Kipt r» utilii. 91' Kfttirn to an ordfr of tlif lloime of CoinnionH, datff aloiiff with n dfitcription of tlif land, tlu- iiunif of tin* allottuf and tlif rfawms why tlif patfiit liax not iM'fti ixHiifd. IVfHfiiti'd 21st .Jiiiif, W.\\.—Mr. Murtiii ynl jirinltil. 0S. Kfturn to an ordfr of tlif llou»f of Commons, datfd 21»t .May, 1H!I4, for a rfturn of the ordfr, ininiitf or dirfction uutliori/.iii); tlif collfi'lor of uustoniH at WiHMlHtook, Ont., to admit fri\' of duty Cfrtain (jikhIs connistinn of vfHtmfiit» or other fhiirfli articlfs for tin- uw of tint Roman I'atliolio cIiuitIi ;it WiKKlHtiK.'k, coiiHiKni'd to tlin KfVfrfiid Kutlifr liracly, of WcMidstiM-k, in the niontli of Kfliniary, 18'.I4. 1. Tlif dfcinion U|Min wliirli tlu- collfctor ai'tfd in admittiiiK "Ufli (^(hkI.h frff of duty. 2. All corrfs|K)iidfmf liftwffii tlif controUfr of fiiHtoms or otiifr ihtsoii in tlif ilfpartinfiit of fUdtoms Tflating tlifrfto. H. Copifs of tlif li ttfi'x .md i'orrf>|Minn the said articles, or any of tlifiii. It copy of the entry or minute in respfct thereto and the amount of iliity paid thfi-eon. I'lfsfiilfd 21lth .fiiiif, WM.- Mr. MrVurthii Xot i,ri,il,il. 08. Kfturn to an ordrr of the Hoiisf of Commons, datfd "tli May, 1S!I4, fora return showing the names of all |M'rsons ap|Hiintfd to act as what are known as rfturn-ui'-n, in coniifction with immigration work, thf pericHl duriiiff which fiich worked, thf .imount of iiioiuen8es and revenue for the winter 18il3-it4, in connection with said service. Presenteil 2'Jth June, 18!»4.— jtfr. I'trnj. Not printrd. 04a. Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the Oovernor General, dated the 14th June, 18!I4, for a statement giving in detail the days, during the month of .January, February, March and April last, on which the steamer " Staidey " crosseHi< of thn lloiiiw of ConimoiiH to \m I'xcfllt-ncy tho CSovernor Oi>m-ral, dntnl 27th April, IH'.CJ, for cupifH cf all ciirrfK|Mni(li'mf, iiietnoriulH, ilt'imrtinintiil nnlcrt nml ordiTH in council, rcHiMH'linx or in any wiiy r<-littin)( to tin* ri'inoviil of the i'X|Nirt ihity from KiiwIogH nnd other iin- niuinifiiL'tureil hinilwr i-xiiortwl from Cana Unito of Comnionn, ilat«- of ConinionH to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, datet in council, corrj-Himndence, inKtrnctioiiM to otticeni of the departnu-nt of public workn, and re|«)rt« of mucIi otticerH resin-cting the improvement of St. Andr«w'M rapiiirt in the Red river of the North. l're.iented 12th .July, IH'.M. — .'/ •. Afiirtin. Nut priatfd. 100. Return to etitions and memorials in relation to the reduction or abolition of the duties on Canadian tobacco, or in relation to any ]X)ssible changes in the inland revenue laws in that behalf. Presented 23rd July, 1894.— Afr. Brodeur Not printed, 20 A. 1894 il, iliiti.'i.-Mr. iMi/Hrg (in/j/. 1 Manitoba (fruin, etc., it .lanuary, 8 collateral id name of fot printed. nt showing 1 the trade both years n. 2. The lid revenue same, and ig and dia- eiited 10th 'ot printed. lowing the 1891 ; the I ; number nt. ot printed. t'llechaase, nted 20th )< printed. dated 4th duction OP he inland it printed. 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 HOVAL C()MM."H8I()N ON THE L1QU(JR TRAFFIC MINUTKS OF KVIDENCE V'OLu.vu.; III. HHOVINCKS (IK MANITOBA. NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES AND BRITISH COLUMBIA I'h'iyTEH HY 0/Wi!h- OF I'AltLlAMKNT. OTTAWA I'HINTKI) HV .'S. K. DAW.SON, I'RINTKR TO THK t^LKE.VS .MO.ST EXCELLENT MAJE.STV ixr «. 1894 I No. 21— 1894, j / 57 Victoria. Sessional Papere (No. 21.) A. 1894 GENERAL INDEX. MANITOBA, NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES AND BRITISH COLUMBIA. AMxitt, Hiiny Air.l, Al.-x. A Allen, W. C. M.I) . Aidagh, Hon. W. I) Arkle, (icorgc AtkinHon, ThoH. O. . . Vancouver Winni|*ff Fort Mivulecxl \Vinni|M't; Keffiiia \fw UVstniinstcr. I'liin, Hon. .Ino. F liaker. Miss L. Al Heaven, Kobt nr^UU', Sir \l. IJ liell, C.inlon, M.I) Helyea, A. L Benson, J. H , HettH, J. W., M.LA ISoisHoan, A. S Brett, .Tanie.'< Brett, H. C, M.D Brown, C. .1 Brown, (Jeortfe \V liriiwn, ,Tii:nes ,^f, Brown, J. C, M. 1'. I' \,.w Westmin.ster. Biirhank, Kil. A VVinniiM's Winni|M'(f. . . . I'rinee .\llH'rt Victoria. ilo Bi'undon Victoria . .... Regina. . . Prince Albert. . Brandon Banff rlo VVinnijieg Re)r, 1). H .... CoiK', Fred Cordingley, C. H WinniiM^j^ \Viinii|K'(;. Costigan, Henry A i do | do Costigan, Jolm R jCalgary jCalgary Cotton, John | Prince Albert j Prince AUiert I 1 Coutlet-, li. W Winnipeg !Winni|)eg. ... Creamer, James Kegina Pegina Cunningham, Mr.s. M New WeHtniinster New Westniin.stei . OnthlMTt, A. Ro,ss Daniels, K.'v. S ... Davis, T. *> . . .. Davies, Joshua Uevine, .lohn Dick, Frank Donaldson, Sam. J . Dowling, Thos Dowler, \V. J Drake, Samuel Drury, Kdwa^d f,. . Dnunmond, H. .\1 . . Dykes, Andifvv . . . . Calgary . Calgary . Brandon Brandon. Prince .\ll«'rt Victoria . . . Vancouver. . Calgary . . . , Prince AHmtu. Calgary . . . . . Prince .Mliert. ....Victoria Vancouver. . . . . Calgaiy Prince AUhtI . . , Calgai>- Kddv, William P. Knglisli, 'riioniiis, Kvans, Rol)ert . Victoria Victoiia . Nanaimo iNanaimo. Winni|>eg WinniiK'g. do do do do Regina Calgary .... Fort MacliKKl Regina Calgai >• Fort .Macleod Ferguson, Jolin J Banff Ferguson, Wm Brandon F«'rre, M WinmiH-g FiBher, I. B New Westminster. iv Banff Brandon Wiiini|K'g New Westminster. .'Wo, Place. ri2it 20*! 345 547 444 103 (ilU 150 14 3!I8 283 S« 340 rH»s 3!t7, 4(12 1«S 323 r)0!i ti4li 374 274 3(iH 47' •''"""- llmlianH™,!.... Hii.slcni, Andrew Hendeisdn, W'ni. , . :, . Herclnnei', L. W Heswm. I". H Hilton, Fiev. Doiialil . . . . . lAanainiii. ... . . . Regina I'rince .Vlbert. . . .Iliranilon . |Kort Macleofj ll(KlI!t (i(l.. A . . . . Mackenzie. 0. C Macline, W. V .Me.\rthur, Duncan . . - McCoU, EWnezer . . . . . McDiarniid, .Ino., M.J> .Melhmald, Alex Vietori.i New Westminster. Regina Wiiniipeg Victoria Brandon do Nanainio Prince Alb«'rt Winnijieg .lo Brandon Winnipeg MeCJregor, W iXanaiino Place where Evidence taken. Brr.ndon . Fort Macleod. Winnijieg. . . . Regina Winni{)eg Regina Brandon Victoria. . . WiimiiM'g. do do Ca'gary . . . do Vancouver . . rt. . do Page. 2as 419 144 301 145 33(i 10i» 5.%( 87 47 4G .3(>2 4()4 mt !»S 225 128 481 208 178 586 3()8 111 10 17(1 51 rm 013 (U» 277 314 Vi 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 419 144 361 m 1S» 481 806 111 W ITO M m 018 U38 877 314 Niiiiif. McKay, V'fii. Arclideaciiii, .McLaren, .lamts MoLf'oil, Hon. J. i' McLpod, Muitlocli ti McLeoH, Rev. Angim .1 . , . . .McLennan, J. K .McMillan, .Fames K .McNal), W .McRue, Kev. I). A McRiic, .r. C McTiij^xart, John Mc'TiiM'iien, Patrick Ni.xon, K(l. B Nixon, Thomas Nolan, Patrick .1., Jr. Nonnan, Francis O'Connor, Thomas . . Odium, Ed Orton, (JcM). T., Mi). Patrick, W. H Pawson, .Tohn M Po'liles, Adam .1 . L . . Pirry, A. P Peterson, A. M Planta, Joseph P Po]*, .Tames C Praeger, K. M., M.D.... I'reston, Isaac Residence. Prince .\Il«'rt. . . Vanet)uver Kort Macle 621 343 147 r)(r) m> .5X0 li (Ml? IS .S7 4(IH 292 .5(a r>43 77 ■»2« .5S3 2 2(H» 17« .jfil 232, 212 577 (ill;! 57() 222 M(K» 503 219 General Index. Naiiii Kticln'Mttr, Kev. W. M . l{iiliiiUoii, I'uti'r IJoliHiui, Clias. W Robson. Kev. E Rouleau, Hon, C. B . . . Royal, Hon. Jos Kcnidfncc. I'rince AlU-rt . . . do Vancouver New Westininxter. Calgary R^^gina .SauiT, (». .Si-lioHfld, F Huluiltz, Hon. .Tolin Seniniens, Rev. J Sliakespere, Noah Hhfi)].,' -d, H. W Sibbald, .f, S Sifton, -V Sifton, John W .Small, W Smith, C. Dell Sniitli, .Facob W Spencer, Riehniond, M.D. Steeii, Jas. L Stewart, tJeorge A Stewart, Mvv. John Stull, Jas. P. A Victoria Vancouver Winni|)eg. . do Place where Kvidence taken. Prince .VJU'rt do Vancouver New Westminster Calgary Regina Victoria . Vancouver . \Vinnii)eg. . do Victoria ; Victoria . Thoniiwon, !•". W . . Todd, Jno. C Townshend, W. I) TuplKT, 1{. \l ... . do Regina Calgary Winni|ieg do Victoria Regina Hrandnn Winni|K'g Hanff Treheme, Man. . . . Prince .\ll)ert . . WinniiM^g. Brandon New Westminster. , WinniiK'g Uniuhart, Ki'V. .\le\ {Brandon . Walkeni, W. W., M. \) Walker, James Ward, Robert Watnon, Rev. C Welsh, R^v. JohnK... E. Wellington, B.C. Calgary Victcjria do I do Regiuii iCalgary 'Winni|)eg. . . do .. . V toria Regina . . . , Brandon Winni|n!g. . . Banff Winniin'g Prince AIlxTt. Indian Head . Winni|H'g. Branddu New Westminster, Winnipeg Bnuidun , Nanaimi) Calgary . V^ictoria do Regina . I 'age. a!i«. ;tl!i, ;«« (U5 mm .■)iti IM .531 ' 478 272 3!HJ !t4 1()2 ■)50 .m 184 •""7 4Sti 1(K> aie iia l(i4 .'58!) 22 LSI .w3 ;!72 521 5-10 266 vin 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Niuue. Westwood, A \Vhite, David Williams, Jas Williams, Milton Williams, Richard H WiUoughby, J. H. C, M.D... Wilson, Alex Wolfe, Marcus Woodsworth, Rev. Jaw Wright, Alf. D Wrigley, Jas. H , Residence. Place where Evidence taken. Prince Albert j Prince Albert. Banff. . . JRegina . Gleichen . Regina . do .. Victoria. Xanaimo , Banff.... Rt'gina . . Calgary. . Regina . . do . . , Victoria . Xanaimo . Brandon iBrando Regina Fort Macleod . Regina Fort Macleod. Page. 319 440 243 400 333 321) 513 568 202 342 414 2! «** ix 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 liOYiS.!^ com]missio:n^ ox I'HK LIQUOR TRi^I^^FIC MINUTES OF F.VmEXCE. MANITOBA. WINNIPEG, October L'4tli, 1892. Tlie I{oyal CoinniKssion on the Liquor Tratlic met lioie, in the City Hull, this (lav at 10.;50 a.m. Present ; Judge McDonald. Uev. Dk. MrLKoi), Tlie Commission having been lead, JuuoE McDonald said ; 1 desire to state that it was th enter into any investigation of what might be called the moral side of this (juestion in places where we ha\e hitherto held sittings ; but of cour.se, we have taken up all the phases of the question of the liquoi' tratiic in so far as such bear on the commercial and social interests of the country, and also in regard to any other matters that come properly under the terms of the Com- mission. The usual course adopted in each place we have visited has been to call, as the first witness, the Chief Magistrate of the town or city, and following that rule, we shall be glad to take the evidence of the Mayor of Winnipeg, and in his absence thati of a prominent public official. 21 1** Liquor Tmftic — Manitoba. ADAM .lolIN LANK PKKItLKS, l'„li,,. MH«iHtmt<' of \Viimi,u.fr. duly swni'M, deposed as follows : — oil lH;ili;r //// ,hiihjo Mclhiuiilil : ."JOt.'Ki. How loiiLt li!i\e you resided in since IS7(). \Vimii|iog ? — 1 lui\-e resided in NN'innipei; HUi;{7. How ioni; luue vou ix-en Poliee Mii-iistrate ? About thirteen \efiis, siiiee 1871). -Wii iiipe^' liOl.'tS. Hiis tliere been a great change in any way since you came hero ?- lias ;,'rown since I came here. .■J04IJi). Did you come from some other section of Canada? -From Toronto, Ontario. I came with Sir (larnet Wolsley and his expedition. .SU4 K). Will you state lirietly to the Comniission what is your jurisdiction ?- -Win- nipeg and throughout the ])ro\ince, hut my dutic^s are chielly in \Viniii[ieg. T am Police Magistrate for the province as well as for the city, hut my duties are ])i'iiicipally or almost entirely confined to city matters, to matters that come hefore me here. Cases con- nected with hy laws and diflerent matters are occasii nally Wrought liefore me from the country districts. .'50441. T suppo.se you take preliminary e.xaminations in criminal cases sent for trial? I do. .'$0442. You have spoken of trying cases under city by-laws, or oH'ences such as drunkenness and disorderly conduct and ofiFeiices of like character tried under the city by- laws ? Do you hear such cases? -Yes, and various other cases. .■$044;5. Those offences are dealt with under the city by-laws and not under statu- tory law. t^uite so. 30444. You have had cases brought before you under the Vagrant Act, T suppose ? — Yes, sometimes under the Dominion Act and sometimes under the by-laws. ."$044."). Taking your experience, and also taking into consideration the growth of the city, has tliere been an increase or decrease of druiik(?iiness ? Duiiiig the last four or five months there have been something less than two cases of drunkenness per day or \'6''2 per month. 3044(1. You hold a sitting of the court every lawful day .' Sometimes my colleague sits for me. 30447. There is a session of the court, if there is any business to come before it? — Yes. 30445. Are those cases of drunkenness of which you have sjioken confined to city people? Entirely to city people. 30449. Do you have very many cases before you of illicit sale of liquor, selling with- <'Ut licensee? -Not a great many ; recently we have had one or two cases. During the last four or five months we have had one case of a wholesale dealer selling liquor, which was drunk on the premises, and \ think one man has been convicted for selling without a license, but that was outside of the city. Another one is before the court at this mo- ment ; and there are four hotel-keepei-s up Just now, but their cases have not been ad- judicated upon. 304.")0. Are you able to inform the Commission as to how many licensed places there are in the city ? - 1 cannot tell you. 304ril. You are not one of the issuers of licenses? — No ; those details will no doubt be furnished to the Commission by other witnesses. ;?04r)2. Taking your experience, because it is with that we wish to deal in taking evidence, and we also desire to obtain any suggestions you desire to make to the Com- mission, in order that we may report them to Parliament, can you inform the Commis- sion, in the first place, as to the imxie of granting licenses? — \ think probably that if fewer licenses were granted and if greater restrictions were imposed, it would be of great advantage. T do not think it is neces.sary to have any restaurant licenses. 304.")3. Would you confine the liquor sale to hotels? — Yes, to hotels. 30454. Are groceries allowed to be sold with liquor here ? — ^Several of the groceries sell liquor, but they have separate stores in which the sale takes place. Adam John Lane Peebles. 57 Victoria. iSessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 u ruler statu- the jii'oceries yciirs liiiu .H04rir(. Ilow lidi^j liji.* lliiit lict'ii the law f I I'lHilci liiiriily tell you, two or three Yos, [ tiiiiik it is. not til (illiiw the sale of .■U)l."i(). Do you tliiiik it is ItfiicHt'iai .' )!• «illi iti'oci'i'ifs. lUJl.")". It. lias licfii stated in some parts ot' Canada tliat wlieii lii|Uors are sold with . fs it allowed with a license ( -I suppose so. .'i()4(H). Have you had any experience to enable you to say whether it would be Ixfnfiticial to have such sales priihil>ite lead you to suspect that there wei'e adulter-ated conrpounds sold as li(|uor !-— No. .'5040!). You do not know whether there are such compouruls sold? — No; I have not had any experience in such cases. ;50470. Have you had any experience of the woi'king of a pr'ohibitor'y law?- No. .■}0471. Have you alwavs lived in a country where liquor' could be lawfully sold ? — Yes. .'50472. Have you any exi)ei'ience of countries in which light wines are connnoniy used, and in which they are used as a connnon drink at the table 1 — I have been in thc^ Mediterranean countries. .'i047.'5. What opinioii did you forirr in regar-d to wine-drinking in the countries there?— That time is so many years ago, I hardly like to speak of it. It was fifty years ago when I left the .service. .30474. Were light wines corrnuonly used in those countries ? They wer'e. 30475. W^er'e the\' used as or'dii\iir'y table liever-ages ? — They wer'e. 30470. From your knowledge of W'innipeg, has ther-e been any change in tht! social customs of the people in r'egard to the use of intoxicating li(juors ? — T think not ; tlipy have always indulged in them moderately. 30477. In sonre places we have found that owing to tenijier'ance societies and the churches, the .social customs have changed, so that a gr'eat deal less licjuor is u.sed t — I do not think there has been any change of that kind here : at all events, I am not accjuainted with it. 3047H. Taking the cases that come before you, can you state what proportion are attributable to the use of intoxicating liquoi-s ? -I am not in a jxisitioii to state the pr'oporti(tn, but a great many of them are due to the use of intoxicating liquors. 3047'J. Take the cases all together: what percentage of the cases coming before you would be directly attributable to the use of intoxicating liquors ? — I do not think there have been any of them due to that. 30480. Take the ca.ses of drunkenness and all the other cases, in what proportion of them is drunkenness the main cause ?--We have on an aver-age only about two cases and .sometimes none. 30481. Taking the whole cases that come l)efoi"e you, drunkenness and all other offences, is the propor-tion of cases due to the use of intoxicating drinks a large one 1 — I 21_ip* 3 Liquor TrafTic — Manitoba. cl<» iKit tliiiik so. TlHTf luivf Iwcii iiiily twii ciisrs of druiikt'iinrss tlivily frouj,dit liefore nie, ."tOIHl, Do you think that the police arrest all drunken people ' .'■■ .. they see f -I tliink the prohahilities are that if a nmn is a little into.xicated. .iiay he sent to his lionie, JWIH.j. You think it is the rule in case a num is ^ „ .iion^, although tiot very steadily hut (|uietly and is tendinj,' homewards, to allow him to j,'o / - Yes. ;J04S(). l>ut if ho is creatin<4 a disturhanco they arrest him, 1 suppose ? — Then he is arrested — there is no douht al>out it. .'JOIHT. I think you said there has not iM-en much chan;L{e in the drinking habits of tlu' |)eo]>le (lurini; late years/ — 1 do not think there has been an increase in j)roportioii to the population. 3U4'^M. You remember \ery wt-ll the boom days? — Yes. .S()4fs of the license law I — They do. Adam John Lane Peebles. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 11, iiside from le direction of .■iOr>()l. S(i jiftci' Jill till' wliolc duty (if ri(iidiictiiii( iiro.st'ciititiiiH in I'DiitM'ctiMii with illicit Sides <|<)<'.s nut di'\c>i\c n|i<>ii tlo' I iis|ii'ctiii-, as tlii' imiIIcc iirc idv\(iysHii|i|ius('(l inj,'ivr xiiiii' lit tfiitioii to lliiit iiialtrrl III till- cM'iit of sfciii;; pi't'iiiisfs open iluiiii;; |>rciliiliit(>Ci lioufs or sct'iiij; ii roiicoiirsc of |(fi)|ilf, \vc (-on.sidi'r if wmild In- tlii-ir duty to intcrfiTf. .'tOoO."). W'liuld it lit' tlii'ir duty to make coiniilaiiits tnijic liisju'ctoi' or lay com- itlniiitH licfori' yoii I 'I'o <-iiiii|>laiii to the liis|i<>ctiir. ,'l().')()t!. 'riicii it Wdiild si'ciii that the lMs|it'('tur has a ^fnod (h'al to do if he has to watch the \iolat ions of the law, nut only in \Viiiiii|«';^ l)Ut all ose? I am very little in the city on Sunday, hut I hear that a ^ood deal of selliiiif takes place. ."i().")ll. .Are they many illicit places, that is to say, unlicensed places, .sellinL; li(|uor ? I think not, hut that is a jioint on which I am not well jiosted. ;i()."ill.'. l>o inaiiv suih cases come hefore vou ? N'erv rai'clv. Thei-e is a man out lleadin^ily w! . is hefore me now for sellin;; without a license. l)o you think the sale of I think thi'i'e are i,'i'eat is a dan;;er to the community? — T do your opinion, hotels are 1p8.s danf,'erous of the license law hero ; what are the .■iU")l.'5. You spoke ahoiit aholisliinj; restaui'ant lioen.sos. lii|Uor would lie lietter coidined to hotels; and, if so, why? iii(luceiiieiits presented hy restaurants for men to visit them. .'i().">14. An- not the restaurants suppo.sod to supply moals? Tlioy are. ;U).')1."). Are thoy simply drinkiiiji; saloons.' -I do not know that myself. .■50.")1(). Hut you think that it would he hotter to conline the sale to hotels and not ha\o any .saloons in the city? — Yes. .SiJ.")17. You think the hotels are loss likely to jiormit extation to the community? — Yos, and they are neces.sary to the better classes. .'{().il5). J)oyou think that the drink tradt not know that. .'iO.'H-'O. Hut I understand you to say, that ii than saloons? —1 do not know. liO.'iJl. What aro the jirohihitory provisions hours durin clone away with, wliich would it be better to dispense with ? Ff I were g'liiig to dispense with either, 1 would dispense with the restaurant license. 305G0. T asked the 2ilagistrate as to whethei' it would be advantageous to separate the sale of li(juor from bi.liard or pool rooms ; do you know anything in regard to that matter ?-- There is no sale of li(|uor carried on in connection with billiard and pool rooms alone. 30561. iJo you nu-an that the billiaril or poo] rooms are i-onn(>cted with hotels or restaurants ?- -Yes. 3050li. Have you had any experience in regard to the adultei'ation of intoxicating li(|Uors ? — No. 305()3. r mean the effect on mcp who drink them ? J d<> :>.;:tknow anything about that matter. 30ri()4. Has ", our attentioi! been called to till' subject? — 1 ha\e heard of the adul- teration of licjuor, but I knon nothing about it , 30565. It has been stated to the Connni.ssioi; by some police otlicers ant,' by jiersons occupying such ■ iiositii.u as you occupy, that compounds have been drur.' Vv people who afterwards have beciime almost pai'alyzed. Ha\(' you heard of 'ou. pounds being mixed with li<[Uors which would |iro(luce those eflects? - J believe sucli lliings have been done, but 1 do not know of any such case. 305()6. Have y<.u noticed such eflects 'ii persons brought into custody '.' \\'e ha\e had per.sons retained as witnesses who were evidently sufTering from the etll-.-ts of drugs, but if course we diil not know what kinds of drugs. '0567. Was any investigation made into the matter? — No. .)056'' it to m , 'in.' T have not ivceived anv reports yet, J. C. McBak. 8 r-M M - - v. ' ^ TCi t^ s q gM; ' AitftV-HCn ' ■■* -wv ' ■ " fc^iy^mK ' ggr^y. : ■ n r «». ' «»jTin i >;.i ^ ui ■ -fi 37 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 K)se ? — After need. he condition maintained I not find it sy with the considerable rds, whether utiible to tlie 3 percentage, attriVjutal)le, ire no doubt ■barged with lit tliat ^iS -r.i [) your -r.- le'') ■li rules .i!id i the license olice may do icer or police ave the right md your men do you think Htion to that enforcemenc ;ion of crime, of the poHce, louid so 1.1111- ook after ? — inspector in his work ! — ■ lation. For lis rowdyism, tiie duty ot 'ic are gross you to have ndeavourt J ted tlie kACw. connection olieyed. hry liave no 'j>line. bti' I iiave m. .'?0.'592. Then they have not made any reports '. T have not i'fc<'i\cd any. .'{O")!);^. I suppose you agree witii the Magistrate tliat tliere is ])rol)ably cuiisidcr- ;ihle ilHcit sale, aitliougli that lias not come undei' youi' notice otlicially ? l)o you mean y people not licensed? — I do not know of any liouses where thei'c is illicit sale, except in iiouses of ill-fame. ."iOoO"). Tiiei'e is illicit .sale in that there is sale during prohibited hours ? -1 do not know it, but I believe there is. ."W-'iOO. You iiave no otticial knowledge of it ! I do not know ; I do not taste li(]Uor myself. 'Mii\)7. You have not had the fact brought to your attention, that illicit sale has taken place in many cases? — I have not liad it called to my attention or mentioned to me at all. 30.j98. Is your knowledge the general knowledge that people possess ? JJo you tiiul it ditlieult to enforce any laws that may be enacted and which it is tlie duty of your men to enforce? — I do not find it ditlieult my.self. .'5059'J. Do you think there would be less drinking if there were fewer places licensed? — iJy impression about the drinking habit is that tliere is a good deal of it done through company. A crowd will get together and they will ••.'ason for that opinion? —Some of the restaurants profess to do nothing but sell !ji[.i')r. and they are practically supported by the sale of li(|uor, and Isupjiose they would ■.ot lu' SI) Judiciously and carefully if they had otiier means of livelihood such as the f'T':' .1- ousine.ss of a hotel. .'lOGOa. Other people have made this point : The hotel is really more injurious than .lie liquor saloon, because when a man goes to the saloon he goes there simply to obtain pointed at different points, similar to the officei" who has been appoirited, and who has achiexed such success at Rainy l{i\t'r. We try to appoint suitable men as constables in order to ])rosecute the cases, but in many instances they have ))roved ab.solute failures. .■}06;5."{. Were they not in some cases under liipior intluencesi They appeai-ed to lie under certain influences, becau.se they dealt with the Indians,and perhai)s the jiarties who su)ipiied the liquor did not consider it advisable to inforrii on them. However, it has been a failure and that plan has not been succe.s.sfully carried out ; but I desire to repeat that the official from Ottawa has met with the greatest success. All the reports that have been received indicatt^ the great difficulties that have been met with, and jiro\e that unless officers are vei'v energetic it is inqiossible to jiutdown the drink tratle. We have endeavoured to induce the Uinttid States CJovernmenl to place an officer there but have not succeeded. 306;U. Do you visit Rat Portage? Yes, once a year. .'50035. Has any length of time elapsed since you were there .' I ha\c to visit all the Indians in the Lake of the Woods and Rainy Lake and Rainy River disti'ict. I do not stoj) thei'e any lengt'i of time, bi'cause 1 have afterwards to go south and then north. 30030. Is Hut Portage under the lic(Mise law of Ontario .' Yes. 30037. Are there many places where liquor is sold? -I cannot tell you exactly, liut there is quite a number. 3003S. Is your stay there often long enough to enable you to see whethei' the law is ob.servetl, and wheth<>r thei'e is much drunkenness and disorderly conduct there / I never see much disorderly conduct : there is considerable drunkenness at the time when lund>ering is over and men come in from the canqis. Of course you might be in Rat Portage and not see anything while you were thei'e, but at certain times it is crowded with peojile, especially with labouring men connected with the mines and with lundiering. .'50039. Do you reside in Winnipeg? Yes. 30040. Did you come from Ontario !-~l came here from the county of West KIgin, Ontario. 30040rt. As a citizen of Winnij)eg, have you observed the optu'ation of the license law here? — I have paid very little attention to it, except so far as my own business a:^ 11 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. SuperinteiKlcnt is i-oncfriuHl. When tlie Iiulians are camped down tlie I'ivert'or several miles, tliey a;'e supplied with litpior hy disi-eputable parties who take it to them. Of course many of the Indians who camp round the city are not of the hij^hest (U'der, and are not to be taken as specimens of Indians such as are to be found «.;; the reservations. By Rev. Dr. McLeml : .■W641. Do you find a marked change in the condition of the Indians ] — I observe a gradual change. It is a marked change when you take a jieriod of 15 years and make a compai'ison ; but if yor take the change from year to year, it is very slow and gradual, for they are very tenacious of tlieir iiabits. .'{OCillrt. Then you have observed a steady change '] — They are very tenacious of tlieii' habits. .'50042 Do they adopt the habits of white men ? You spoke about their gardens : are they beginning to take an interest in tilling the soil '/ —They take considerable inte- re.st where the land is fitted for cultivation : but in Treaties ',\ to T), that is from l{at Portage eastward to Lake Superior and av.ay along English Hiver and Winnipeg River ant! the north ))art of Lake Winnipeg and down Nelson River and the Saskatchewan, and north pai-t of Lake Winnipegoosis and Lake Manitoba, the land is .so rocky that cultivation is almost imjMtssible. The chief mode of subsistence by the Indians there is by fishing and hunting, and they pay but little attention to agi-iculture, beyoni the cul- tivation of corn and potatoes, which are raised in those parts in considerable quanti- ties. But where the reservations are suitable for cultivation, as is the case in some parts of the country, there is excellent cultivation carried on. At Ltjng Plain, Swan Lake and Rosseau they have raised '),000 bushels of wheat. At St. Peters, tliousands of cattle and horses and other domestic animals have been raised, and where missions have been established the Indians have cattle and they are in a very comfortable condition. .■iO042a. In what condition do you find the young Indians / — We find them working on the railways and in sawmills, even tilling the position of head-sawyer, and in other employments, and I have no doubt whatever that their condition has been improved very much of late years. ;}0()43. Do you tind t': -re is less inclination to drink among the young Indians than old Indians ? —Some will not taste liquor if it is offered to them. At St. Peters the Chief will not taste a drop of liquor, nor will any member of his family. ."50644. Is that due .somewhat to the prohibitions that have been thrown around them and the fact that they have .seen benefits arise from abstinence ?- T think it is the influence of religion so far as they are concerned. 3064.0. I suppose the introduction of liquor amongthe Indians in any degree would hinder their progress toward civilization 1 — It would be fatal to all the efforts n)ade by the Government towai'ds their advancement because they would spend anything they could get on li(juor. 30646. Do you tind it possible to enforce the prohibitory law .so far as Indians are concerned 1 — Yes; the violations are reduced to a minimum now. Many of the Indians do not know the taste of li(juor. 30647. Do you think the use of liquor is greatly more 'njurious to Indians than the whites 1-1 most emphatically think so. .50648. Is it because of their semi-savage condition ? \ think it has greater influence over them — the smallest (juantity influences them. It is the same as regards tobacc(i. They cannot use it in any sti'ength ; they mix it with kinnicic, for if they have it full strength, they cannot u.se it. They are very stolid u[) to a certain point, and then they go off at once without giving any indication of it. When I travelled round first, few of their huts were covered with anything more than bark and the large proportion of them wore blankets, which they obtained by trading w ith the Hudson Bay Company. On my trip this year I saw oidy two or three wearing blankets ; almost all of them were better dressed than the average workingman in the country. Of course they are impro- vident and do not jirovide for the future ; this is specially the case with hunting and fishing Indians. They will not have one day's ratitms ahead. 30649. Do you believe that the prohibition of liquor is not only beneficial to the Indians at present l)ut that the effects of prohibition on the present Indians will be Ebenezek McColl. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 scrviltlniis. lo Indians seen in their descendants, in that they will be U-ss trouljleaomc lo deal with .' Probably so. Hum and tobacco were introduced liy ti'aders some years ago, but 1 believe the Hudson Bay Company put a stop to that tiadini; alto!j;ether. Since that time the j,'ene- ration of Indians has passed away, and probably many of those who are old men now have never tasted li(|Uor. Lonji ago it was rum which was obtained foi' their furs, l)ut there is nothing of that sort now. Such trading is absolutely prohibited and no iiijuor is given to Indians. Of course, occasionally disreputable people go from the cily and give them liijuor in order to get their furs. ■'iOdTjO. How many years have elapsed since prohibition came to be enforced?—- There has been no li(|Uor among them at the outposts. liOGol. I suppose until the I>omininn adopted (|uite rigid measures there was more or le«s ii(|Uor distributed among the Indians? — It was not done by the Hudson Hay Com- pany, but the li(|Uor was obtained in the settlements. Adventurei-s came in who \vante the distribution of li(|i!or. 306o2. No doubt dui'ing those fifteen years you have oliserved marked benefits to result? --Yes. ."{OG");}. Do you find from year to year that the benefits are more marked ? Cer- tainly, as these people are becoming educated and civilized and the li(|Uor is f)rohibite(l from being introduced at all on the reserves. If the law is violated in this respect the offenders are severely jiunished ; we even fine hotel-keej)ers now, and they will not give a drop of li(|Uor to Indians for fear of the conse(|Uences. .■{0()r)4. You mean they dare not do so? -They do not do so because they ai'e visited with severe j)unishments, the fines for these olfences varying from !?50t(» S-'WO for each offence. .■JOlio"). Do you think the severity of the penalties pi'events to a large degree, the sale of li(iuor to Indians ? — Yes. The Indians could otherwise get li([uor by paying twenty-five cents a glass foi' it, but the hotel-keepers will take a long time befoi-e they will be able to obtain sufficient profits to pay the fines. IJOOofi. So really there are not only the (Tovernment regulations, enforced by your- self, !)ut these severe penalties that are visited upon [)ersons who sell to Indians, are a great help also ? — Y'^es ; we could hariUy accomplish anything unless those penalties were imposed. By Judge McDonald : .■506.")7. You ha^'e spoken of religious influences being bi'ought to bear on the Indians. Do you find the ettbrts of missionaiies have been beneficial.' No (loui)t of it; that is the case, I may say, in regard to all missions wherever established. 3Ut}")8. Theii- ett'oi'ts are also directed to showing the Jnrlians how to cultivate the soil by setting an t^vaniple to them, and showing them how to cultivate a garden and raise domestic animals, and of course these missionaries are invariably oppi)S(;(i to alco- holic stimulants being introduced among the Indians? No doulit that example has its influence and has been the means of hel|iing to i)ring the Inilians to their jires iit con- dition — both tlio.se efforts and the eil'orts (»f the Hud.son Hay Company and some of the other traders. ■'{0<)o9. Did you during your visits anion,' the Indians for tr'eaty purposes, Iiav(> to travel through the North-west Territories ? — Yes, from (Irand l{:tpids up to Cumberland Houses. ;]Ofi()0. AVas there a prohibition law in force during those days ? I think there was, and liipior could only be obtained under a permit from the Lieutenant-Governor of the North-west Territories. 306fil. Do you think it was an easy matter to enforce prohibition among the white people there ?--Tliey had li(|uor only in limited (piantities. There were, howexcr, prac- tically no white settlements there. 1 am speaking only of the Saskatchewan district. Occasionally the principal traders might have a limited ipiantity of liquor for their own use, obtained under these permits or when they meet a friend. There was no drinking going on at the outposts, for they had no litjuor there. 13 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.. .SOOfjl*. Snail classes ot' people wcr'e frco from (lrunkt'niiess ,' Yes; altliou. Was that in connection with the .sale of lii|uoi' to Indians 1 — Yes. .'50000. Have you any further su}^<;estions to make to the Commission ? — None what- ever, further than, if one oi' two otticers were placed at diH'erent points, who were inde- pench-nt in their action,s, their .services would be of great advantage to the Indians. I think that is the best suggestion 1 can make in regard to this matter. The orticer to whom I have referred is only a temporary one, but he has been there two yeai-s, and it would be desirable for the (iovernment to appoint such an othcer permanently between Hat Portajie and Fort Frances. HENRY A. COSTKIAN, of Winnipeg, Collector of Inland Revenue, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — • Jiy Judge McDonald : 306G6«. How long have you re.sided in Winnipeg 1 — Fourteen years. 30007. How long have you been Collector of Inland Revenue 1 — Six years. 30f "S. Did you come here originally from any other province ? — I came here from New Brunswick. 30609. During the time you have been a citizen of Winnipeg, have you had occa- sion to observe the habits of the people? — Yes, fairly so. 30070. Do you tind this to be a sober coHiniunity ? -I think its condition in that respect will compare favourably with that of coni:nunities in other cities. 30071. As much so as in the older sections of Canada v,ith which you are acquainted ? — I think so. 3067:2. Have you noticed a change in the social customs of the people in regard to the use of liquor ; is there less drinking than formerly ? -I think it has considerably decreased here within the last ten years. 30673. What are jour duties in connection with your department ? — Generally the collection of duties on Canadian manufactured goods coming here in bond, and the supervision of manufactories here. 30674. How many establishments are there here manufactuiing liquors ? — We have no distillery here, but we have breweries. 3007."). How many have you ? — There are seven breweries in the Province ; three in Winnipeg, two in Portage la Prairie, one in Brandon and one in are located Minnedosa. 30676. 30677. You say there are no distilleries? — There are no distilleries. Have you any trouble with illicit distillation ? — Occasionally we have cases of illicit distillati(m ; the cases have been in a small way so far. 3067f<. What do the people u.se in making liquor ? — In the last case we had, which was a few months ago, they used potatoes simply. 30679. We find in the Province of Quebec that molasses was used for distillation purposes ? -In this case we found the people who made the whisky, used potatoes; they made a decoction from them. Ebbnezer McColl. 14 KfuiM 'ra :n m mLV*fiim »m t vm mmmmi j r mi m . ^- 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 !•: 'Of sale (lecrfiisiii;; / It liiis luit (U'crwist'd I ill tlie 'J'fiTitories wci'o hefoiv the ilAV \V!IS 111 fon wl icii lii|U()r ;<06f<0. HiivB you liiul any opportunity of exaniiiiiiig tliat spirit, or set-ing it pro- (lufi'd f -Xo ; wi' (lid not lind any spirits on tlu' jireniises. Most of tlic cases of illicit distillation, liowever, are in the North-west Territories. ■'?0()S1. Does your district extend so fai'? It eiiihiaces the North-west Teri'i- tories. ;50()S2. l">oes it embrace not only Manitoba, hut the North-west Tei'ritories ? — ■ Yes. .'<0t)83. Is the same kind of spirit maile tiiere ? — Xo, it is manufactured from grain prineipallv ; sfimetinies syruj) and molasses are used. .'{0')84. Ts it manufactured mainly for the people's own use, or for sale generally. .SOGH"). Is that illicit distillation increasing o- think. All the cases of illicit distillation we have new North-west Ordinance' went into eH'ect. ."iOGSG. Then that was when the prohibition could only be obtained l>v permit ; and now that the licen.se law has come into force, you tliink there has been a decrease in illicit distillation? -The license law has not yet been sufficiently lonn in force to enable me to give a detuiite opinion, or to draw a con- clusion, but we have not found any ease of illicit distillation since then. 1 do not say it follows as a result of the new license law. ;50GS7. Have you any knowledge in regard to the smugi.'liiig of li(|Uor from the Ignited States into this country! What is your experience.' We work jointly svith the Customsi Depai-tment in regard to the matter. There is very little smuggling into the Province f»f Manitoba to my knowledge, but there has been a great deal into the North- west Territories especially before the Xorth-west Ordinance came into ett'ect. .■$Ons,s. In what .section was most of the smugglitig carried on. or was it carried on along the border generally? — It was carried on at Fort Macleod and Pincher Creek, and all along the boundary liipior came in. .'}0()S1). Was it brought in by Canadians or by people from the I'nited States ? — (ienerally by Canadians. .'{OGltO. You .say that very little of that has occui'red in Manitoba?- We have never had a case to our knowledge in Manitoba. .'$0691. What kind of lit|Uors are niaiidy imported in bond ? The only s])irits is what is known as rye whisky. ;}0G!)2. Does it come from Ontario? — From Ontario piincipally, f>om Toionto and Walkerville. ;{0G!).3. Do you get any from Prescott ? Yes. .'50694. Those are, of course, the thiee jirincipal distilleries in Ontario?— Yes, but we also get a large quantity of spirits from Waterloo. .'5069."). Do any liciuors from Europe come through here in bond ? -We would not have to deal with them ; they would come under the Customs Department. Of course, large (piatitities of liquor come through the hands of the Customs. .'50696. You have only to deal with liquors manufactured in Canada, 1 siij)pose? — Yes. .30697. Have you any statistii's with you to show what (juantities have been impoi'ted in bond for a series of years ? 1 can give yoi: an idea of the (luantities. I made a calcu- lation for the year ending .lune ;5rd, 1S92, and 1 found during tiiat year we collected duties on 12.*),947 gallons of proof spii'it, that is of the strength of proof : in other words, that c|uantity was taken out of bond here, and the amount we collected was 8188.924. When I say " jiroof spirit" you may add about 20 per cent to that for standard gallons, for reniemlier that we reckon everything on the basis of "proof," which is 100 jiercent, and the ordinary spirits as consumed are 2") i>er cent or .so. This calculation has to be inaile in order to get an idea tif the standard gallons. ."50698. Is that spirit for u.se in Manitoba and the North-west Territories? Yes. 150699. When did the new Licen.se Law come into force /—I think on May 1st of last year. .'50700. So for one month liijuor might be .sold lawfully in the North-west Terri- tories ? — There was a great deal of liquor useil in the Territories under the permits. 16 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. HOTOl. Will) sviiuld tukt! tlmt (luantity of H«|uor out of bond ? — The ditt'erj-nt v. liole- siilc li(|ui)i' men Ih'ic in Winiiipe;^. They hold landing wurtihouHe licenses here, and tlity take out tlio spiiit as they reijuire it. .'50701*. That (junntity is really what is taken out for consumption ? — Yes. I have hero a memorandum of the numl)or of gallons of beer prcnluced during the same perio7S-7'2 ]U),U'0 H-2 do ISiM) 1(11,411-81 1M1,8:W (i4 do 18iU I(l4,7(i8(i7 i;.ix or seven seizures made in the Territories within my time. There was not mucii li(|Uor seized, as the parties had usually sold out ; in fact, tliey .sell it nearly a.s fast as liiey make it. .'5()7"_'."5. Has there been a vi^^orous atteraj)t made to siiut up the.se illicit places? — • N'cs, there was a vi^jorous attempt made on our part. The country, of course, is very v.ist in extent, and it is a pretty ditticult mattei- to reach the parties. .■i07'24. Hpeaking in legard to the jirohibilory law there : do you think the permit svstem was so used that it really destr<»yed tlie prohibitory law ? fn my opinion it is pretty difhcult to administer the permit law as it should lie administered. Wluit 1 mean i-< this ; all the aj)plications come to headipiarters at Hegina, and perhajis there may be two or three hundred in the morning lying before the Go\ei-iior there, and I do not l)flieve he had the proj)er means at hand to find out whether the applicants were eligible to receive permits ; hi' simply issued permits when asked for them. He had no means of discriminating. .'J07:.'"). Do you mean that he i.ssued them indiscriminately .' Of coui'sc the applica- liuns had to be endorsed by some responsible citizen who was known at itegina, but liiat endor.sation was generally forthcoming when asked foi. .'KJ72(). Do you think the (iovernor ntiver made any attem])t to ascertain whether the permits were really recpiired ( I ha\e no doubt he did all he could to see that no permits were i.ssued except to proper jiarties ; but what I .say is, that he had not the means of ])r(Ji)erly ascertaining whether tlu' parties were eligible or not. 30727. You think h(! had simply to grant the permits asked frtim him; In most cases r think he had to (hi so. .■)0728. Do you think that a strict check on the jiermit system would have been inure I'fVective ?- - It might have been so. •'1072!). Do you think that notwithstanding the permit sy.stem, prohibition was in any degree effective in the North-west Territories ?-- There may have been slightly less spirits consumed then than are now used. .■>07.'W. Would there be the same smuggling then as now / Yes. •'i07.'51. Do you think there is very little now ?— There is very little, and 1 have not lic.ird of any cases recently. .'i07.'12. T su[ipose there i.s scarcely any necessity for smuggJiii^ \:i tlie Nurlh-west now, because the permit system has been abolished? Yes. .■{073;}. Is there any smuggling in Manitoba?- I do not think so. 30734. Are the Mountecl Police stationc^d anywhere in Manitoba to )irevent snnig- giing? -Yes. They are stationed along the boundary, but I do not think they ai'e there esjiecially to prevent the smuggling of whisky or spirits. .■i073n. \''ou think there is not suthcient inducement for smuggling now > (juit(! so. .'i073t). Have you any idea of the consumption of spirits in the North-west prior to I lie abolition of ijrohibition ? -No, I could not give you any idea as to what quantity entered the North-west Territories. 30737. Was it a considerable ipiantity ?- The e.xact figures could be obtained only from the dealers. Of course, we lose sight of tlie licpiors after they leave the warehou.se. 21 2** 17 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. t'l KDWAKI) liAltNKTT NIXON, (if \Viiini|«-g, on l)ciii« duly hwoih, d^K.s.'d us lows ; lit/ Judiji' MvDoniild : 307IW. Whiit is your occupation? I iiin iimim;{i'i' ot" the grocery and licjuor d'part- iiionts of tlio Hudson Hay Company at AVinnipej?. .■1()7.'5!). Iluw loni; have you resided in the eity / — Since 1882. .'507 10. How lonj; have you held your present position? — Hince 188(5. .'$07 H. Dill you eonie i.eie tVoni one of the other provinces ? -I came here from Moiureal. '■WlA'l. Then you have hren a citizen of Winnipeg; since 1882?- f was absent for I wo years and a half. ;J07I.'J. J)uriri,!,' the time you have lieen a resident of this city, have you had any opp.,!'tunity of forming; an opinion as to the charactei' of the people? — Yes. ;U)( I'l, ll.iw do you find this community as regards sobriety and good conduct? -I thiidc h.'tter thici the average. .10745. Have you noticed as a citizen how the laws appear to be enforced as to Siiiiilay sale of liipior and oi-derly conduct on .Sutulay ! — T think Sunday is kept in a very (trderly manner in Winnipeg, in fact more so than in any other city in which I have ever lived. .30740. How long did you live in Montreal ? — I livt.'d there over ten years. 50747. I understooil you to say that you ai'e manager of the grocery '"nd li(|Uor departments of the Hudson Hay Company. — Yes. .307 18. In what way do they deal in liattleford, Prince Albert and Edmonton, north, T believe 1 —Y'es. 3075l'. How long have sales been carried on at these places in the Territories? — Only since the license system went u\U> effect in the North-west Territories. 30753. I sui)po.se the Company sold groceries there before that time ? — Yes, the Company sold general stores, with the exception of licpior. 30754. In tho.se places is the sale of li(juor connected with the sale of groceries ?— It is separate in the North-west Territories. 30755. Hfis it taken place in a separate store? — Yes, in Alanit'^ba !>*■ Abirden and Deloraine the Company are allowed to keep the liquor in the store, the same as in old times it was allowed to be sold in the east. 30756. How long is it since the change was made in the law here? — I think altotit four years. 30757. Do you consider that change in the law is a beneficial one for the com- munity, or have you had any rea.son to form an opinitm on that matter? — We have not noticed any appreciable diflerence. 30758. Evidence has been given, notably in Montreal, thfit where groceries and liip uor are sold together, women and others, who would not enter a store to buy li(|uor, would go and obtain groceries and buy liquor at the same time ? — I do not think there has been any difference with us in that regard. It might have made a difference to some dealers who were in the habit of selling liquor with their groceries, but I do not think that made any diflerence with our trade. 30759. Are you able to state as to whether your sales of liquor continue about the same volume yeai' after year, or whether they increjuse or diminish ? — Do you mean our retail trade ? Edwakd Barnett Nixon. 18 57 Victoria. Sesaional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 tliiuk aljotit ."i()7l>0. Yfs.— Tt I'oiitiiuu's iilniut tlii> siiinc. Oiir sfilcs inctfiistHi >i|ii(lly until lici'iiscs wfi'f j,'iaMte»l in tlic Ndrtii-wcst, Tfriilttrii's. l)iit mir sales line Imvc (ji'iTcusfd HJlli tlif ii|i(>nin;,' ii|i of stori's tliroii^^lHiut tim <'(iiuitrv. .■{07t)l. How do you iici'ouiit t'or tluit 't — It is owiu;; to llu' I'lu-t timt pcririits wi-rc lint scut down lu'iv to ix* lillcd. .'l()7t>-. I >o tlii'sc |icrniits fall for tin' same (|uaiilil ics. or do I lie i|uu ititii's \ar\ t — ■ 'I'lir (juantily \;n'it's. .■id till' kind of lii|Uor \ary '. Y»'s. ;i07t)4. Won,' soind pcnnits for whisky and for wines, ales, etc. '. Yes. ;{()7(i;'). Have you fravplled tiirou;,'li tlio Nortli-west Territories at all I Yes. .■t()707S0. Have you any suggestions to offer to the Commis.sion in regard to the liipior tratlic or in regard to any alterations in the law ? No : I think the law is a good one. .'i07i^l. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the iniiiosition of larger licen.se fees is productive of good results? I think the license fees are heavy enough. ,■(0782. What is the license fee now? >?42.") for a wholesale license. .'50783. Ha.s your coinjiany a wholesale lieen.se ? —We have a sho]> license. 3078-t. lender such a license, licjuor catinot be drunk on the premi.ses, 1 believe? - Yes, in addition to the license fee, we have to pay small fees, ont; of which amounts to By Rev. Dr. McLeod : .■i078r). Did I understand you to say that your liquor business has increased latterly ? --Yes. .'50786. To what do you attribute that increase ? — To push on the part of the Hud- son Bay Company. .'50787. I wonder whether you attribute the increase to that, or to your belief that tlie drinking habits of the people had im reased ? — I do not attribute it to that at all, but to the fact that the Hudson Bay Company are endeavouring to do more bu.siness. 30788. To the fact that they are pushing the liquoi- branch of their trade? — Yes. 30789. That they are trying to sell the largest possible (juantitie.s, as they do, I suppose, in regard to groceries and dry goods and other goods ?^Yes. 30790. T think you have stated that this is a very orderly city ? — Yes. 19 21 2il** TT Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .'507!)1. Do yuu tliiiik the drinking liiibits of the people, not only in Winnipeg, but tlnt)Ughout tlie regions covered by your company have decreased iiml not incieased? — I do not think they liave increased. .■iU71)-!. Do you think the pusii displayed by your company will have a teiulency to increase I he sale of liijuor? — I think the increase of population will cover the increase in the sale of liquor. .SOT!).'?. Do you think it would be well to limit the nund)er of licenses issued or to increase the nunilier'/ — Do you mean iji this pi'ovince'? ;W794. Take the country at large '( — I think there is a limit in Winnipeg. .S0795. You think there is a limit here ? Do you think it is well to have the number limited? — Yes. .■>079C. Why ? — Because in this way the trade is placed in the hands of more respectable men. 30797. W^oulil you limit tlu; number of peop'io selling --ordinary merchants? — I think you c(>uld hai'dly do tluit. 3079H. Why not'/ — Is there a dili'ereuce between the liquor trade and ordinary business 'I — There is to ii certain extent. 30799. Give the Connnission your view on this point? T think there is n.oi-e chance of dishonest dealing in the liquor business than in any other business, and I think there ai'e also more chances of dishonesty. .S0800. Please explain. —T am referring to the adulteration of liquors. 30801. There are chances of dishonesty in that one man will sell only pure liipior while others will adultiM-ate it? — Yes. 30(S0li. Dc you think that the tendency to adulterate is very marked .'--1 o you think there is anything in the that makes it a wise provision to limit the lunnber of persons t>ngagefl in the trade, in other words, to check the ran\i*ications of the trade (juestion to answer. 3080Grt. Did I understand you to say that tliere \Nas no in the North-west during the prohibition per-iod .' No. 30807. No bquor was sold by you at ail ! No. 308ti' . You have said you tliink it would be difficult to enfon;e prohibition in ^lanitoba. Why? I think it would lead to smuggling. .30809. And you think that is a thing to i)e dreaded .' Yes, I do. 30810. Is thei'e smuggling on a considerable scale in Manitoba outsideof the liquor trade?— Not that T know of. 30811. T''e Commissioneis have V)een int'ornied that snniggling is taking j)lac(! in otliei- parts of the Dominion, especially in the >St. Lawrence and along the coast? Not hei'e. 3081'J. I suppost> in the border region;, there will be more or ,' -s smuggling of ordinary goods. Are there prevtMitive officers stationed along the bor er? - Yes. .■i081.''i. Are they stavioned there to jireveni snmggling? Ves. .3081 I. As there is danger of snmggling, or preventive othcers would not be statiivned thei'e, it is perhaj)S fair to assume that there miglit be considerable evasion, more or less, of the law, and that the chief ilanger as regards smuggling would ari.se after prohibition was enacted in Manitoi)a? ^^'s, thei'e would be smuggling by unprincipled di'alers. Of course if prohibition was enforced, every person who dealt in lit|iior would l)e a violator of the law. .3081"). And only unscrupulous people would engage in the business, although we have been told in Manitoba that all tiie mm in the trade or most of them at all events Edwaki) lUriNK'n' Ni.xon. 20 taking is dis- of in(|uiring into the character (»f the trade That is a pretty haril quor sold in your stores 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 i issued or to ill V'*"'' ;-tores (iliibition in (If of the lir would become smugglers if there was prohil)ition enacted : hut of cou se "^hose may have liecu rather sweepinj,' statements. T believe that the peojihi of Manitoi;a Iiave expressed thciusi'lves very strongly in favour of prohibition. Do you think the reeont vote fairly expresses the opinion of the people ? — I think the plebiscite was sandwiched in with imlitic's. 30816. So you tliink that tin; view expressed is not that of the peopL? of the [ii'oviiice 1 — I do not think, if the peo])le were to vote again, the resolution in favour of the |i|(>l)isoite would carry, irrespective of polities. I(()S17. Is that the general opinion? That is my own. .'iOSlS. Do you believe rir do you not believe that the expression of p'lblie opinion ill regard to that plebiscite indicates that the feeling in Manitoba would back up and world i'l.sist upon the enforcement of a [irohibitory law ? If such a law were to be enueted, do you think the ])eople would i)e iiidifl'erent ! Do you think t' it expression of opinion indicated that if a i)roiiil)it manager of the li<|Uor department of the Hudson Bay Company, F suppose you look after the grocery as well as the li(pior hiisiiiess I -Yes. ;i(J821. Do you believe that th<' jiroliibition of the liipior trallie would injure business generally, I mean outside of the litpior busiiKVss ,' - 1 think it would indirectly. .'>n8L'2. Inwliatway? — It would throw a great many people out of woi'k. Jind it wiiulil .ilso ilepreciate the vahu' o you think that after a man had emiiloyment in one kind of business; he Would tiiid employment in ;inother'? Probably so, but not sueli proiitable eniplovmenl. .■i()S2i). Some people have held this opinion, that the li(juor business instead of being a benefit to the general business of the country, is an injury to ordinary business, in that it takes away from the volume of money that would certainly How through other iiusiness ehannels and give tMiiployinent to the people in a manner that would be more [ii'iititable to them. J lave you gi\('n sullieient thought to i 'is point to enable you to give an opinion on it I No. 150830. Tn pushing the l)usiness of the Hudson Bay (' >',pany, you lia\e not. I sup- pose, (.fiven thought to that side of it? No. Jii/ Jiidgi' Mi'Doniilil •'(0831. Ha\c you had any experience, except in the Noitli west Teriilories, in regard ':o proliiiiitory legislation ? —Do you nuvm in towns ? 3('832. Yes ?— Yes, at Richmond in the Province of Qiieliec. .'t()S33, Have you ever be<>n in .Nfaine? No. .i08.'>l. l[ow did you find matters in Uiehmond? -The Duiikin .\et or tlu^ Scott Act was in force there, and I found that liquor was used very unsparingly there. By Rev. Dr. McLend : .■'.083.>. How long ago is it sini-e vou were in Richmoiul ,' I was there in js"'"^ and 1>7!I. ()8.3G. There has been opportunity for impi'o\emcnt since tii 'ii, 1 suppose f -Ye.s, and there was room for it 21 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. By Judge McDonald ; 30f^;i7. In the case of a proliibitory enactnuMit being passed, could you form an opinion as to tiie propriety of making remuneration to those engaged in the manufacture of liquor, on account of injuries done to their property '',- No, that is a little beyond me ; that is a heavy question to consider. RICHARD LATOUCHE TUPPEK, of Selkirk, Manitoba, on being duly swuin, deposed as follows ; — By Judge McDonald : ,'508.'?8. What is your position or occupation ?— I am Fishery Otticer for the l)om- inion rjovernment. .S0839. How far is Selkirk from Winnipeg? — ^Twenty-four mih's. 30840. How long have you resided in Selkirk ? — I have just moved there ; I lived in Winnipeg. 30841. How long have you lived in Winnipeg? — Winnipeg has l)een my head- quarters since 1878. 30842. Before that time where did you live? — In the County of Victoria, Ontai'io 30843. How long have you held your present position ? — Since last June. 30844. Did you hold any official position before tb.at? — Yes, I was Chief License Inspectoi- for the Province under the McCarthy Act until it was declared idfni rlirs. I was the t'athor of the Manitoba ^\ct, which has l)een rei)ealed since. 30845. Then you are able to speak with considerable knowledge as to the working of the Act. Can you state briefly and generally in what particulars the Act diflered from the one at present in force ? — No. T have not thought of the changes, but they are slight. There an^ vei'v tew changes from tlie Act as passed after the McCarthy Act went out of operation. 30846. How did you find the McCarthy Act to work? — I found it to work \ery well, for the reason that it placed the licensed houses on a business basis. Before that time under the old Act, we had too many houses licensed here to do the business, and things were runninj.; loose to a certain extent. Tht^ McCarthy Act was a very benetlcial Act for the Province. 30847. Did it appeal- to be satisfactoi-y to the people as a whole ? — Yes. 30848. Did you, as Inspector, find it a workable Act? — Yes. 30849. How tlid you tind the state of affairs in regard to the ob.sorvance of the Provincial Law while you were Inspector there? As to Sunday observance : did you have anything to do with that?- — 1 had to do with the general working of the Act, and I found the Sunday pro\ision was observed fairly well. 30850. Then as to the sale of liquor to minoi's : had you any trouble in regard to that matter? — ! do not think during the whole time I was Inspector, F had one case of complaint with res[)ect to the sale of li([uor to minors. I was particularly severe with hotol-kee]iers and I allowed them to understand — as 1 knew every hotel-keeper in Manitoba — that I would be particularly .severe on that point, and I cannot recollect any complaint of \ iolation of the provisions in regard to sale to minors. 30851. Had you any experience in the working of the laws as regards allowing the sale of liipior with groceries, or did you make provision for theii- separate sale? — I re- commend strongly that the sale should be kept separate. 30852. Do you think as a result of your experience, it is desirable that the sale of groceries and litiuor should be kept separate? — Yes. I think the sale of liquor should be kept altogether .separate from that of groceries, 30853. It has been stated that where the sale of liquor was combined with the sale of groceries, greater temptation was offered to women to pui'chase liquor, and it was Edward Bahnktt Nixon. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 duly sworn. 31- the Doiii- jiointed uut that women who wtmld not think of going into saloons, would go into groceries and purchase liquor? — l do not know whether they would buy or not, but it might be charged in other ways in the account, and it w(juld be impossible to tell \\ hether the charge was for groceries or for liquor. .■?OiSr)l. Had you any reason to suppose that liquors were adulterated at all during tlic time you were Inspector? — -I am a druggist and chemist also, and I ca , tell jirttty well in regard to li(iuor. I take lir).j. It has been stated that in some |iarts of the country, tobacco, bliiestone and otiier articles are mixetl with liqu(»r to give it a tiery charactei' .' That was done fre(|uently in the North-west Territ<^ries. :)085G. You ha\e never known it done in Manitoba, under tiie license law, J -appose .' — No. .'(,)f<.")7. \Vei-(' you tioubled with illicit stills when you were Inspector I — Not aftei- \vf di'ove out the illicit dealers. When the ^lanitoba Act went into force, we were very seveie in regard to illicit sellers, and we fined them so heavily that it did not pay them 111 continue the business. There have been very few carrying on unlicensed sales since ilie new Act came into force: in fact, since the McCarthy Act came into foire. there has been \erv little unlicensed sale. .'508.")8. So tiiat when tin,' people settled down under the administration of the law and became an older oonununity, you would expect that cases of illicit sale would liecome less and less fretjuent '. \ do not know that such would be the case. 1 know the Province pretty well, and tlie illicit sales taking place are of \ny small proportions, it is simply a matter of watching \'igilantly in order to prexcnt illicit sales taking ]ilace. ."lOS.")!). Thei'e was evidence gisen before the Connnission tiiis moiiiing in tiiis city, I l)elieve by the Police Magistrate or by the Chief of Police, tlint billiard rooms and pool rooms are only licensed ii\ coiuiection with restaurants? I do not tiiink there wi'i'e any licenses in connection with the s;ali' of litpior. ;)(J8()0. Were there any persons keeping small iliiard and pool rooms who were licensed .' Wei'e they in connection with hotels or n -laurants licen>-e(l to sell liijuor? - i cannot remcmbei', but most of the hotels and .saloon- had iiilliard and pool taljles. ."50801. Do you know of any licenses granted to sell liipMi- in [)ool and billiard moms since you ceased to be Inspector ! — I do not know of such cases. 308()L'. r understand you havt- rc'sided in Winnipeg. How ha\e \ ou toun(] th' city as regards sobi'iety ! — I lia\t? \isited the cities in the east and ha\ (^ also t ravelleil in \arious ])arts of the United States as well as Canad;i, and I think Winnipeg will com pare favourably with any city, and is ahead of most of them. .'{08()3. Have you considered the (juestion of the treatment of the persistent ilrunkaid ? We find in many sections of the I'ountry that there are unfoitun.ite ]ieople wiiji whom it is an almost constant jirocession finm the polii'c court to the jail, and then from the jail to the saloon and back to the police court, and that this pi'oces.sioti is kept up the year round. Are tli /re any such cases in this city ?- We liavi; some -iicli rases hi-re, and 1 would place the parties in the same category as lunatics. .■{08('>4. Should the\- i)e treated as though they needed to be ke])t under re-ti'aint ? Yes; l believe in tiiat treatn;ent. ir- .■1081);"). Do you think .iny reformation is elFected by sending thi^i to prison for a -liort term ! - No. .308(JG. Have you ever known any man to be reclaimed fi'om drunkenness by that treatment ?- No. .'50867. Have you noticed the etl'ect of the liquor trallic on the connnunity as a whole; whether it is beneficial or the reverse as regards family life, business interests and so on '( — That is a pretty hard *73. Sujjposing that hotel, saloon or restaurant had to be done away with, one or the other, by legislatit)n, which, in the interest of the counnunity, would it be better to dispense with, the hotel or the restaurant? — F should say, keep the hotel ; but I think some restaurants are necessary in a city. The reason I provided in the Act for a few restaurants, was because any good restaurants in a city likt Wiiniipeg lose money as a rule in the dining-room, and yet some restaurants are necessary, especially for a cei'tain class of inhabitants who are bachelors and live in rooms. A great many gentlemen live in rooms and go to restaurants for board, and in order that the restaurant table may be kept uj), it is necessai'y that there should only be a limited munber. \ believe a few restaurants are necessary. That has been my experience. 30874. Do you think the proprietors could not maintain tlie restaurants without being allowed to sell liquor there, or is it because they charge too little ?— They would otherwise have to increase the price of meals. 3087."). Then the profit they make on the sale of drink enables them to furnish meals at a lower price than otherwise would be the case ? — Yes, because there is liquor at the table. 3087G. Do not quite a large number of people visit restaurants who do not take any li(|Uor at all, and do not such persons pay less than they should do for their meals? — Not less than they should pay, but less than the proprietor can afford to supply them at. I know many total abstainers who take their meals in restaurants and also take meals in hotels. 30877. Then owing to other people drinking litjuor, the total abstainers are able to obtain their meals at a cheaper rate? — Yes. Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod: 30878. Then tiie total abstairicr does not pay for what he gets in food ? — Yes, that is my experience. That was the reason why 1 recommended the Government to grant seven restaurant licenses in the city, and I spread them over different parts of the city so that persons living in different sections could reach then) easily. By Judge McDonald : •3087!). Have you had any experience in regard to the use of light wines and ales and the ellect they have on people? — In what way do you mean ? 30879a, You are well aware no doubt that in European countries the}' are generally used, and some people recommend their use in this country. It is contended by some, that if our people would use wines and ales and get rid of stronger liquors, the change Ricii.vuD Latouchk Tuppeb. 24 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 would be promotive- of temperance? — I liave read the matter up and have noticed that tli(> temperature of the climate has a great deal to do with the character of the liquor the ]i(Mp|ili' drink. In Italy the people drink light wines, but as you go north you find the |itM)])l(' drinking spirits, and in the northern regions the people always want strong li(|iiors. I believe, if more bciM- and light wines were flrank, our j)eople would be licttcr, 308S0. You think, then, that the question of climate has an important influence '. T am satisfied that if our peojjle would drink more largely Canadian or Califoi-nia liiilit wine, it would be better for them, and I am satisfied moreover that thousands of |ii'(i|il(' who drink these wines now would, if they did not drink them, drink strong iiiliiofs. .S0881. You have spoken of light liipioi's being used now, which was not formerly 1 he case. Are there any other beers oi- light drinks that are useil ? The Conmiission lia\e lieartl of Weiss, hop and Schenck beer and birch beei-, all of which contain a very small percentage of alcohol. Do you know whetliei- such drinks are obtaining any hold aiiiiiiig the j)eople?- I have not heard of that. .'50882. Are you aware that lagei- beer is largely used ?— Yes : that i.s of the strength .11 about 4 per cent. ;i088.'5. Have you had any experience in other places than Manitoba, where there Ikis been a ))rolubitoi'y law in force? — In Iowa and Xein-aska, and T h;ive also visited suinc of tiie New England States. .'50884. State to the Commission your experience in Iowa :' I sto])ped in Sioux City over night, and I asked the pi'oprietor of the hotel where I was staying, where the l);ir was. He said he had no bar. I may say that this was a very fine hotel, worth not Ivss tiian !?200,000, I was tired after my jom'nev, and I wanted to get .something to drink. He said that he had nothing to drink and that it was a proliil>ition State, .lust across from the city is Nebraska, miuI of conr.se 1 did not know what was the state asked where 1 came from, and I said Man- itiilia : and he inrpiired alwjut two or three ju'ople in Manitoba. He then told me to go to tlie doctor and get a prescription, and that would last me as long as I was in the city, and I could always get it filled at the drug store. [ asked him as to the law, and In- said tile hotel-keeper had been fined once or twice, but some people iiad Hotels and salipons. These hotels, J may say, were buildings that could be removed from one vace.nt jilt to another, and when the proprietor was fined one month, he moved the hotel to an- other lot, and under the law lie could only be fined once a month. As a matter of curi- iisity I went round and asked for whisky in seven places and got it, thi-n I went to the doctor and got the prescription, in nrder to try the drug stores. Of course at the drug store there was no trouble. .■i088."). Was the liquor furnished ? The doctor took me in and wrote :" Spiritus \'iii. Rectificat. two ounces," and I got it. [ jiaid for it, and of coin\se it had the <>fTect lit' being a permanent license to myself as long as I remained in the city. The jirescrip- timi was not taken from me. .'5()88(). Would it be filled by any druggist? The next time I went there I stoi)ped ;ii the. hotel. They did not sell li(|Uor there. It was Sunday. I waited to .see the efi'eci re all around, but were without licenses. .50888. Had you no means of testing how the law worked? — It worked Ncry well. I went to two or three hotels and asked for liquor. They .said they did not sell liijuor, lint that I could send out and get it. .'50889. Did they rge higher pr iquor hot I did not .^end for it, but other parties did go ; they sent for a ])itcher of beer or tie of whisky. ^ 25 If Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ;50890. llefeiTing to tlie Nortli-west TeiTitoiics : wluit has been your cxpeiicncc there? — I have been all throiigli the North-west Territories since 187H. tliert r never t'ounil vei'v luueh dirticultv' in f;;etting Ft was vei'v yonv sonie- 308!J1. What did you see li(luor there. 30892. Wiiat was the(juality of tlie li(|uor you obtained? times, and very good at other times. .'508!).'{. AV'iuit would be tlie (|uality obtained in the locality? Tlu)se jiarties who got the li(iu(jr in by permits ol)taine(i it from Winnipeg, say from tiie Hudson Bay Com- pany, often from dealers in the towns east, and of course they (tbtained good li(pior. Tf a man c ."oured to as- task, I con- aiv one ; one sale. The the saloons ; nd all games of the kind. At the same time my object was, from what I hail seen in Toronto as to the good effect of the seven o'clock closing on Saturday night, to .secure a like pro\ isioii. I wi.shed to allow a temperate man to take his glass, and not interfere with his liiierty to such an extent tliat he would take a bottle of liipior home with him. This city is as well conducted and as (|ui(?t, in my opinion, as any on the continent. The liipior law re([uires to be enforced closely, and everything requires to be done honestly and above hoard. I think an hotel-keeper will always object to drinking men being around liis place, and will not give liijuor to such men unless it is proper that they should obtain it. By Rev. Dr. Mc Lead: .'iODOI. Were there mor;; licensed places under the McCarthy Act in Winnipeg than there are under the present xVet ? — [ think under the ^TcCarthy Act there were two or t liree less. 1 re(lu(;ed the number from 84 to r)2, and I think the number is now al)out ■")4. .'iODOl.'. Then I understand that you believe in limiting the number of licenses ? ■^'cs, to the extent of providing the accommodation that people reipiire. At the sauK^ time that I reduced the number of lici-nses, V raiseil the number of rooms that an hotel rfi|uireil to possess in order to obtain a license; I shut off all other idaccs selling licjuor, except the seven restaui'ants of which I have spoken, and 1 repeat that I raised the luimber of rooms that each hotel-keeper had to keep, furnislu^d for the accommodation pf tlie public. Of course we had to look after travellers. ,'!0-)0.'?. Then the hotel-keeper had to provide a certain number of rooms as a (|iiali- tiiation J — Yes, he has to do so now. .■i0t)04. Why do you think it well to limit the number of places selling liipior ; « hat is the use of such a restriction \ — The benefit is this : if you license only a ]iroper nuiiilier, you allow the hotel-keepei' an oj)portuiiity of making an lionesl living and at the s.uik^ time observing the law, and in that way you obtain more respectable men in thi' business. A man with a thousand dollars may open an hotel, but the niimber is jimiti'd, and of ciiurso the number includes the best men. ."JOyOo. Would it not be well to allow sellers of liipior to o[ieii jilaces iiuliscriiiiin- :iti'ly and compete with each other, as do men in other lines of business, and if they are unable to compete, go to the wall, while those who ])ush business succeed .' — No, I do nut think so, becau.se then there is an inducement otl'ercMl to sell liquor to drunken men and keep open after hours, to have gambling in the ])lace and .so on. Of cour.se this is a jinticular business, ami one difTerent from any other business. You may get men in it w ho will deprive a man of his last dollar and who will violate tlie law to enable him to u.' so, if he has a chance. .■iO'J.J(). Is that your ob.servation of the men engaged in the business as a 4-lass ' — There are a number of honest men in the business, as there are in any other business. ."50907. Is there a strong tendency to have the busiimss monopoli/ed by that class of people ; — There is a tendency that way. .■{0908. Do you think that when fewer j)laces are licensed, there is necessarily lii.ss drinking I — Yes, in a certain sense there is less drinking, but it may be done by more men. If you have more places, the price of li(|Uor would be reduced so that more men could afl'ord to drink. A workingiiiaii would be able to obtain three or four glasses, while now he- might only be able to obtain oni^ glass. .'50909. Do you think the liceiu-- law real', restricts the trade I - ot it. .'50910. Does it restrict the drinker :;. siiller or both .' -A propel not prevent the sale of liijuor, l)Ut it restricts or regulates the sale, intemperate use of liquor ; so if there are lever ))hices selling, and they are selling only within certain hours and on certain days, the -ale is thereby restricted and the drinking is less. There must be a certain number of places. You must consider the population and trade of the town, and there should not be more licenses issucnl than would enable a man to do a respectable business, and be able to .say to any man ; " You have had enough ; I am going to close up now." 30911. What is " enough " 1 — I suppose if a man does not know he has had enough, the hotel-keeper should be able to judge. When a man cannot pnjnounce his " Hs " pro- perly he has had enough. That would be one test. 27 . A'es, I am certain license law does It restricts the Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 15091 'J. '*at the luitt'l-kfeper shcjuld know if the man does nf>t know? Then tlie man is not the judge? — That is the point, of course. H091.'J. You would place tiie res])onsibility on the seliei- ?■- - Yes. 30914. Is it your observation that the seller is particularly careful to draw the line at tlic^ riglit jiiace? — Many of the sellers are so and a great many are not. There are a great many who do draw the line, l)ut I cannot .say the proportion. 30915. Is it a provision of the license law that a seller should not sell to a man who is drunk ? — Yes. :{Oyi<). Do you think that is a wise provision ? — Yes, you will find that provision in the Act. In regard to hotels, I may .say that tliei'e are only two hotels (h((cause even a respectable man may have the misfortune of going on a spree once in a while and may even have to be interdicted,) that would not refuse to give drink to persistent di-unkards on simple notice being given. Instead of giving notice of interdiction, which of course woultl be known to the public, I took the troul)le myself in one ea.^c of going to the pi'ojtrietors of hotels, asking them if instead of the families notifying tiiem of interdic- tion, they would act without it, and my re<|uest was denied by only two hotel-keepers, all the rest declaiing that they would not give the man liquor. His name was not published and liquor was not sold to him. Those two men T drove out of the business for doing so, for they gave licjuor to a man to whom they should not have sold it. 30917. ()i cour.s{(, it would be cruel to .sell to a man already disabled ; but do you think it is a mistake to let dealers sell to a man until lu^ reaches that point? That would l)e a hard (]uestion to judge. The man might be a stranger, and the man who had been properly interdicted might in some cases get enough liquor to ])lace himself in a state of intoxication. 30918. On the Lord's Day I saw two men, one an old man and the other a young man. both very much intoxicated on the street. Was it not a wrong act for a licensed dealer to sell to those men, and was it not illegal? — Yes ; if a dealer ha>l sold to them. Of course they might have taken that liquor on account of places being sealed up. I hoard two men on Satui'day night say that as they could not get a gla.ss on Sunday, they would get Hasks and carry them over Sunday : but that condition of things is what 1 wish to prevent. 30919. Do you think that as the law prevents the sale on Sunday so that men could not get a glass of liipior as they ordinarily do, and they were compelled, as they thought, to get tlasks to carry them over Sunday, it would be well to change the law so as to enable them to get liquor by the glass instead of getting it by the flask ? — That saloon should be closed. 30920. You think they should be under prohibition every Sunday ? — There may be a little too nmch liberty exercised in regard to hotels. 30921. You have mentioned that you are anxious to enforce the license law so that men could get their glass of licpior on Saturday night. What would be the advajitage of that? -The disadvantage is that workingmen on leaving their work on Saturday night want something to drink. They had been in the habit of visiting some of the taverns and sjiending perhsips nO cents apiece and then going home at 11 o'clock, but when they found that they could not obtain liipior by the glass in the evening, they each bought a bottle, as they had to treat each other. Of cour.se they could nit take beer, so they each had to take a bottle of whisky, which they drank (m Sunday. The result was that they wore drinking all the ne.xt day. Such drinking causes much unhappiness in the home and is a bad example to the family. 30922. Then you think more evil follows home drinking? — Yes, more than drink- ing at hotels. 30923. You spoke of the adulteration of liquors in the North-west. Did you know of tobacco, bluestone and like ingredients being used as adulterating materials there ?— Not of my own knowledge. 30924. Do you believe those adulterations did occur ? — Yes, I am certain of it ; that has been done, I know it hius been done. I have seen such things done any num- ber of times, Eau de Cologne and other perfumes being used ; of course they are nearly all composed of alcohol. Richard L.\ToucHE TuppKii. 28 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 I to a niiin .S0925. Do you think those coinj)ounds wero resorted to in tlie North-west .'-" Yes, l)eciiuse the people could not liuy decent liijuor there. 301)26. Was it hecause of tlit! dilKculty of gettin;,' li(pior? Their permits had run out. Sometimes they would not have any li(pu)r in for a month or two. -■(OD'JT. Then the .sale was in con.se(|uenee of the diiliculty of hriufjing in litiuor : did the prohihitoiT law have any etlect on tiiat f — None wliatever ; I do not think it made any ditlerence. .'50ttl'8. Was that becau.se of the use made of the permit .system ,' No. .More li(|Uor went into the North-west without permit than went in l)y permit. ;501)29. Was no attempt made to search for it '/ — Yes, tiie Mounted Police did their duty. .'{OS)."{0. Did they ever discovt'r any litpior? — Yes, very often. .'{09;$1. Did the (juantity of li(juor used diminish / — It diminished as the li(|ui)r was brought in. .'50932. Then you think the prohibitory law liad no effect in diminishing' the sale <' I think it had the effect of making as many drunkards as persons whom it prohil)ited obtaining liipior. ;i09."5.3. You think the prohibition of the article makes it wanted? — 1 can iiardly say that. I know it was felt tiuit indivir a license system would never drink f— I cannot sav that, l)ut plenty of men drank who never drank before that time. 30935. W'^as that very general f-F cannot say whether it was general or not. I liave stated what was the general feeling in the country: it was that lii|Uor not being allowed to be brought in here, we will have it. 3093G. Do you know whether permits wer(; issued indiscrindnately ? As yeais went on were more permits given in later than in earlier years .' — No; I think niore per- mits were given in later years. Since (Governor Royal took olKce, there lia\e been fewer jiei'mits than evei' before. 1 never got but one permit in iiiy life. 30937. I have here a copy of a parliamentary report wine i goes to show that in bS,S3,. the number of gallons of whisky, brandy, beer, wine avid the like given by permit wast),73G gallons, and in ISilO. the nundjer of gallons issued b ■ perndt was l.*)3,t)70, a \ery marked increase? There are several reasons fo; liiat increase. 3093S. What are they? — The I'ailway at that time was not built beyond W'ininpeg. The cost of fi'eight was very high — three times what it \vassubsei|uently. Still another reason is, that if the pernut was sent down by the old cart trail to the lludsim liay Co. to (ill, a permit say for ti\e gallons, the chancers were ten to one that the li(|Uor Nvould l)e stolen on th(! road. An additional fact is, that it would (/ost two or three times as much. Still another reason is, that there were \ery few jx'ople in the North-west Ter- ritories. The probiible reason was that unless you went east yourself with the permit, the li(|Uor was almost certain to be stolen on the road. 309.39. The population lias inere; sed by two iind a half fold, but Mm; increaM; in the number of gallons under permit is from 0,000 gallons to I •").3,000 galloas or twenty- six times as much during later yeai's. Moreover, this was under pi^rmit, without rei'er- ence as to ([uantities coming in by other ways'? — The cost of transportation was the great cause of the difference. 30940. But the fact remains that you are evidently mistaken as to your l)elief that there were more pern its issued in earlier years than in later years? I tlo not mean what they were issuetl for; I mean according to what was asked for. I know more permits have been refused and cut down in quantity of late years ; tluit was what 1 meant to say -it was according to applications. 30941. But you must remember that the (juantity has increased twenty-six times, whereas the population has only increased tAvo and a half times ? — That I did not know. 29 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. i i 1 T inoaiit ill rogiird toiiuantities asked tor by individuals; the gettinj^ it in or not did not iiialce any dillerence. .'J0'J12. Wlietlier it was stolen or delivered, this was tlu' iiiianlity pcrniitted. It would seem that the j)erniits have iinniensely increased. J)o you think the wholesale manner in which the pcM'iiiits were issueil had anythiiifj; to do with the inetl'ectiveness of the prohibitory law in the North-west ? — That T cannot say. .SODb'l. Speaking about the Towa Act : did 1 understand you to say that a man for viohitini,' the Iowa law would be fined but once a month / - F have never read tlu' Act, but was told that the premises were fined monthly. The punishment for the third oU'ence was imprisonment, but they took eare not to be prosecuted for the third ott'ence. 30944. Then no matter who sold, the eatablishment paid the fine? — Yes, only the proprietor would be punished for the third offence. ]Ie took care not to be foumi guilty a third time ; he would move the building to a vacant lot, and although it was the same man who sold the li(|uor and in the same building, yet any offence was u new olFence against that ju'oppTty. .■?094r). Do you think it is a humiliating po.sition to be compelled to move an estab- lishment in which you were carrying on trade — to cart a rum shop round from lot to lot ? — The law permits it, and it does not seein to say how many times they may move. .'{U'J4(). AVIiat were the contents of these houses on wheels?— Some had billiard tables in the back part of the place. U0947. Was tliere many of them around? — I do not know. HOiMS. Did you see one ? — Yes, I was in .seven places. 30!)49. Would such an establishment l)e as large as this room? — No. ;iOy5(). Did you see any of them being removed? — No; they were all stationary when T saw them, I only inspected them one time when I was there for an hour or two. I looked at tiieni in order to satisfy my curiosity. .■J0!).")1. You have spoken of your experience in the North-west during the rebellion and you have stated that you yourself had no liquor for two months. Was liijuor furnished to the .soldiers? — No. .■50!ti")2. Was it a disadvantage to them? — All would have been better soldiers and endured more if li<|uor had been served to them as a ration. Soldiers, as a rule, in com- pany drink too much ; but if it had l)een served as a ration, T believe it would have been a benefit. 309.");}. In Montreal the Commission i-eceived the testimony of Col. Hughes, who de- clared that for a considerable tii'ie during the campaign neither he nor his men Imd any lii|Uor and they were materially biitter on account of the lack of it? — W^e were with him —the Montreal Cr)th — all 'lirough the North-west Rebellion in (General Strange's column. .309o4. You have stated that a jjidhibitory law would not be }a'actice,ble in .Mani- toba? — T do not think it would. .309"),'). Why ? — Because from all I have read and all I believe, it has not been found to work anywhere else, and T do not think it would work well here, le.ss well here than in most placi's. There was a time here when the number of licenses were not limited, and when everybody sold when he chose every hour and day, but now changes have been brought about so that the hours are limited and the days ai'e limited. 30950. Do you think the reform should go further and that the number of licen.ses should be reduced to nil ? — No. 30957. Do you think a prohibitory law touching the manufacture, importation and sale of liipior, if well enforced, would be beneficial? — ! do not think .so. 30958. So your belief concerning prohibition is that it would not be desirable, even if it were practiciible? — I do not think so. 30959. You spoke of pain-killer being used in the North-west and you stated that its use was prohibited : did the authorities succeed in prohibiting it? — I could not say. I do not think they did. 30960. vN'ould it have been a good thing if they had been successful in prohibiting pain-killer ?— The pain-killer went as soon as the people could get, by law, all the li(iuor they wanted. Richard LAToucirE Tuppkii. 30 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 or nut (lid ,t 11 niiiii for iul the Act, >r the third lird ott'enw. es, only tlic 'ound j,'uilty as the same new offi'iice may move, lad hillinrd 1 stationary hour or two. .sokliers and le in Miuii- .'tUitfil. Whidi would 1h' worse, pain-killer or whi.sky -kill. i)it((2. You have lioliceil, of course, the vote i;iven Ity the people of Manitoiia : lull do you think that means in re;;ai'd to prohibition .' -T do not think it means any- \N tlMii;,'- ;U)!Mi;j. ^\■hat was the majority j,'i\eii in favoui' of prohihitiou ? .\ very larue d< 'rity. .'tU'.Mil. |)oyou think tlie jii'ople whu \(ited that way did not know what they were [,' .' Yes ; a j^reat many were very earnest and a i,'i'eat many \oted for fun. J have heeii told hy many jteople that they did not want [)rohihitio!), l)ut voted for it i'oi- fun. :i()!)n the morals ot' tli people at lai';,'e ?— I cannot see that it has. The abuse of litjuor certainly has. .30'.)'')S. You say the abu.se of li(|uor has I Yes. .'{O'.Mil). I understoofi you to say tiiat you were the author of the present law ' -. Yes, before certain amendments were carried. 1 svr s the author of the law passed l)y tlie Mouse of Assembly, after the Mc(!arthy Act. 01*70. Till' jiresent law is the same, with i-ertain amendments introduced'?- Not .Mr. Leacock, who was then a meml)er of the House, reviseba to refuse licenses and thus declare for prohibition? -The law does not prohibit it. .■iO!l7(i. T understand that there are some portions of Manitoba under the .Scott Act. Do you know anything about that matter ?— There were two c.uinties under tlie Scott .Vet. 1 do not know whether the .\ct has been repealed or not, but I think it has. JUl R,'r. Or :iO!)77. Do you before mv time. MrLu,l : know how that Act \^(l|■ke(l in tllo: I'ountii No ; that was Bij Jiidyi' Mi'Uiinuld : 30978. Then you know nothing what.'xcr ab.iut the wdrking of the Scott Ai't in those counties '/-—No ; it was before 1 liecame connected with this city. T was then on my way west in the service of the Canadian Pacific Railway. 31 w^ ED WAUL) follows : — Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. L. DHl'HY of Winnipeg, on ))vinn duly sworn, {|ej)o.sed iw f}i/ Jiidyr Mi'Doinilil: .■{0J)7'J. What is your buHiiiesn or occupation .JOiiHO .•JO!)H 1 , Yes. of till! line, here. .•JO'JH.'l, I Hill ii hi'fwcr. How long have you resided in Winnipeg / Nearly |H years. Have you during all that time been engaged in the ImsineH.s of a hicwcrl — hid you conic from one of the other provinces.' I came from England originally, hut I was ii [ am fi'om the other side Minnesota before f came -CS, II you came here in round figures? It was vc 1)1(1 you conunence the business of brewijig wlu' started right into the business. .'tU'JHt. How large was your output at H small. ;?098r). Did you make more than one kind of li<|uor J I brewed ale and porter at that time. \ made lagtM- beer afterwards, and I have also done something in malting. .■J0!)8(). Has your output increase shut out tli« lioiivicr l)c«>i'H ,' I til Ilk (lovci'iior Koval's liittMitioii in tuistiu permit, wiiicii woidd Ih> for one liarrci of idc for doiiiestif use. 'I'htf I pfr cent licer was mad*' for s<>ilin;; in the Territories. .'tlOOl. How many lirewcrifs air tiiere in tlie proviiu'e.' Tlu'i'i' are seven. .'l|()()."i Is your iireweiy the liiiLfest ,' Yes. .'ilOnCi. Ha\(' you, us a eiti/.eii of \Viniii|ie;;, noticed the wiu'kinj; of the license law li"re : have you found it work satisfactorily.' I think so; there have heeii cliani,'es made from time to time, and I think the license law is working very \M'11. It (iromi.ses to he somewhat strintieiit in .s(»ine respects, hut I recollect that we lia\t' to make laws for ail kinds of people and for ditl'erent conditions, and. moreo\er, al laws iiiiM to \\i formed as to he capahle of enforcement when |ilaced on the statuleUook. We have a law airainst sweaiin;; on the streets. If that law was rij;idly enforced, it would re(|uire a laryer armed force than we have now in the province. It is so also with respect to some provisions of the li(pior lictMi.se law that appear to he very strinj,'ent. .'MOOT. So far as apjx'ars outwardly tlie law is well ohserved ? I think I no occasion to thin k oth ;ilO()S. Have you travelled in Knj;laiid, and the I'liited States ami othi-r countries reat deal : and if so, do you Kiid this city compare with other cities as rejjard.s the tempefiince haliits of the people'/ It compares very favourahly : T do not know a mi .•tahl orderly. i|Uiet and respectable city anywhere than >> innipe;^ W .•51UU!I. Have vou .see n anythini; nf the workinu' of a | ■ohihitipiv law in any country '. No. ."tlOlO. Did you sm' such a law in force in the North-west Ten itories .' Yes. I was in Calfiary duriiif; the ]ierio(l (»f the prohihitory law. .'UOl I. Were you able to form an opinion as to wliether it was ohserved or not ! - I found plenty of drinkini,' there. 1 found il dillicult to <;et beer, but there was plenty of whisky to be liad. I asked a man if I could not ;,'ei a ;;lass of ale, and he told me that a heavy tine was levied for sellin;,' porter or ale, and he (rould not run the risk of bein;; caujfht. There was any amount of whiskv to be had. hut the lighter bcNcrages were dillicult to obtain. .'5101 L'. Have you lived in any country where the people used lii;lit wines and ales at the table as an ordinary drink .' In the I'nited Stati's layer is the universal beverage. The consumptioii reaches li' gallons per capita per annum. .'UUl.'}. Have you had reas(Ui to observe the ell'ectof the use of lag;!f on the people, whether there is less drinking than formerly '. — I have never seen any greater degree of drinking in conse(|uence ; they seeiii to be an energetic, go-ahead race, and a great many of (lur people seem to think the I'liiled States a tine place to go to. Too many of them, I am siirry to say. have that o|)iniiiii. ."{1014. Has your attention been called to the (piestion whether liijUors have been •idulterated oi' not ( I do not know anything in regard to that matter. I know ■>civ little about strong lii|Uor. 1 do n gallons. .'510.S2. \Ver<' the ipiantities small jirior to that time? Prior to the 4 per cent arrangement the (piantitif's sent^ there, you say, were small compaiatixely .' Yes ; they were, at all events, much smaller. < )f coui'se, T had nothing to do with li(|uor ])ermits. ;3l0."5.'i. Hail you re;ison U) believe that (|uantities were sent into the Tei-ritories without permit.",? T have no doubt of it. \Ve never sent ip any, b'lt it was not f( r lack of opportunity, and I niiiy say, with much satisfaction, that we utver \ iolated the law in any wiiy, cu' the permit .system. .'ilO.'M. lla\e you reason to believe liiat tluu'c was much sent in improjx'rly .' - There was more .sent in than appeared, for there was no trouble in sending it in, except as regards beer and ale. ■'{103."). \''ou have spoken about the good order prevailing in \\'iiniij)eg. l)o you attribule that desii-able condition of .ili'aiis to the pie\ ailmg and uniform temperance sentiment that is observable in the community? 1 think it is owing to tlie peopk; thenisches. Jf the large majoi'ity of the people were not in favour of ([uietness, sobi'iety iind order, ihen i>f course we would have a ditlerent state of allairs. .'HO.'ili. Or do you at ribute it to the regulation of the tratlic .' That may have sonietliing to do with it. We all recognize the desirability of a certain amount of regula- tion. Enw.Md) L. I>i{i'uv. It ran about .'50 way ' — Since the )ecause then the 57 Victoria. Sessional I Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 111 about 30 310.'}". Would you tiljolish the wliisky trade — of course I am aware you aie not in till' whisky trade /^T would uot like to say that. I iievei' use whisky iiiyselt'. .SIO-'IS. Do you think tiic wiiisky trade is a henetit to the conununit.y ? — I would iiol like to say : 1 think li(]iior is henefitial. Soiiie {leopie are ot opinion that spii'it- uoiis li(|Uoi'K are henelicial, while others think tiiey are injui'ious, hut we have all to /issuine a certaiii amount of responsibility. .■flO;}!). Looking; at the subjt^et in a liroad li.ijht. do you think the trade in aleoholic lii(iii.rs is beneH(;ial to the connnunity or injui'ious? -That would be ditKcull to say witli- (lUi ex|)laiiatiiin. We can only Judf^e l>y wliat we have, and to make a ehaiiue hy wiiicli vou compel every man to do away with what he has been aceustomed to ordinarily use, is to take a step T have never heard of ; ami, conseipiently, it is impossible for me to judi,'e whether tlie pe'i|>le would be lietter oft! .S1U40. Then you can not fompari- the two systems, or say whether yon have (ibser\ "d if tiie trallic, as it is carried on, is an injury/ 1 think a ^'leat many sensitive people aie injured by not usin<>' li(|Uor in moderation. 'J'lieir V(>ry .seiisiti\en(!s,s previMits tl\em doint; so, as well as the sti;.rma that is placed on jieojile wlio use liiiuor. .'5104 1 How do you account for that stigma attai liiiiji to any ns to close jit eiexcn o'clock at night, for, in my opinion, it is proper that men should leave at that time. It is time for a man to return home; of ('(iiirse, the large m.ajority would leave often before that lime, but there are a few who would hang on, and it is jiroper for the law to make ceitain regulations. The hotel men are .ill united in desiring that some re'.:ulation should be made and enforced. They recogni/e, as every one outside of the laisiness must, thut certain regulations are desirable and neces.sary, ano you think it is proper to provide for that taste? — f think you can go to exce.ss in almost everything, and it is the immoderate use of stimulants that causes the trouble and not tiu' projier use (if tiiem. They were provided to be mafle good use of and to benefit the huuuin race. .■?1058. You have stated that in case a general ]irohibitory law was enacted, com- pensation should be given to the men engaged in tlu^ brewing and distilling trades. Do you pay a license from year to year to the Government? [ do. ."JIO.")*). What is the amount of the license ? — About J^'iOO a year for the brewery and malt-house. 310(50. And a license for one year dties not entitle you to a I'cense for another year, I sujipose ? — \'es : it is continued. .31001. You entered upon thi> business of brewing knowing there was a growing .sentiment against it? When I took hold of my business, IS years ago, I started out in good faitli, and workeil hiird, and J ha\t' put in the best years of my life in I'onnection with it. 1 have thus built up a very successful business ; and although there may be a grow- ing sentiment in favour of temperance, I think one is about keeping pace with the other, and looking :it the matter (lisp;issionately. I judge that "-"i to SO per cent of the popida- tion use stimulants in one way or another. 310112. Do yon belie\e they aie better for doing so ' Some are and others are prniisibllity, and if he injures liimself, lie should not make others sutler for him. .31003. Hut you think it is well to regulate the sale ! I do. 31004. ^'ou think it would be well to regulate the consumption of tlie stimulants? — if you could sell only to those who would be benelitted, there would be no necessity to provide that those who would be injured should leave it alone. •3|00"i. Would it not be well to regulate the tea business f I have seen some articles in which ladies tliein.sehes have deprecated the immoderate use of tea. Some statements in the papers reporting a recent tea sale show that an article is sold that is not bene- ticial. 3l0(i0. Then you think the use of tea has produced ellects t'lat would sanction the enactment of laws ^e^ulating the sale of tea as they regulate the sale of iicjuor '. I would not consider myself to be a judge on such matters. 310(i7. I )o you think the two cases are parallel to a certain degree f .\s they are butii stimulants, t he cases are certainly parallel. 1 simply mentioned this matter t,o EUWAKI) !.. DillHV. 36 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 slidw tliiit tlici't' \v;is ii (Ifsii'f (111 the {)iirt (if the huniiin nice for stiimilaiits of soino soi't, and to show that even ten will satisfy that craviii;i; to a certain extent. I myself use more lea tlian anything' else, so I am not runniiiro- jiintioii addicted to intemperance.' -No, I do not think so. .'510<»i>. Take the ale you sell: from your knowledjL(e of the peopleand the u.se made of li(|Uors, do you lind a large [ercentage of the people who consunu; it are jipople who ;■ ■ .ddicted to intemp(>raiu'e arjd drunkenness ? -No, I think th<> j)ercentage of those who use licpior in some form or other intem)perately, is a vei'v small one. .'ilU7(l. r understand hy y(air evidence that while the consumption of sjiirit uous ]ii|ii. •'{1077. Was that the first place in which you I'csided after you came to Manitolia ? ^'cs. and I have resided here evei' since. .'il()7S. j)uring all that time haxc you been engaged in your present occupation? I was paymaster and purveyor for the t'amidian Pacific Railway under the (}o\'ernmeiit anil then I became right of way agent. ;iK)7it. So in vour oi'cupation you travel al)out a good deal, 1 suppose.' Yes. •'ilOSO. How far does your district cu .' l''rom Port ,\rthur to l>onald. However, I do not hav(- so much to do in the North-west Territories, the land there lielonging to the (!o\erimu'iit, the Canadian Pacific IJailway or the Hudson Hay Company ; 1 do not lime nnich to do beyond the limits of this I'roviace. .'llOi'^l. Take the city of Winnipe.i; : do you think the license law is well observed lii'ic ! I do not. HIOSi'. Will you kindly state to the Connnission in what way you considei' it is not observed. In the first place, in regard to the law im Sunday ; how do you think the law is carried out in that respect? in my opinion it is a matter of judgment, and as 1 do mil go ai'ound nnich I cannot say ; but 1 have heard from others that you could get lii|Uor at nearly every hotel, although jiroperly speaking no saloons shoidd sell. .'ilOS.'i Then your e\idence on this point is merely hearsay .' It is only iiearsay. ^iltlSb I )o you see nnich drunkenness on Sunday '. No, I do not, I walk to church oil a certain street and walk iiome again. W iilii Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ;U085. Do you know svlicther you Imve any trouhle in tliis city in tlie direction of Siiles to minors, youn^ nian under aj^e ! — I do not tliink tliere is, T liave no knowledge of that [ ^sonaily. .'51080. Have you any leason to believe that adulterated li(iuars are sold ( — I do not know anything about that matter. .■}1087. Then nothing of the kind has come under your notice? — No, I have not heai'd of it. .'51088. Have you noticed in regard to the closing of the licensed hou.«ies on week days, that they are closed at the hours ineiitic>ne(l in the law ? T have noticed that they were ojien. .'51089. Do you mean that they were open after the hours fixed by law .' Yes. .'51090. Are there any others matters in connection with the licenses to which yoit desire to draw attention?- There are none that \ know of. .'51091. Are you ojiposefl to a licen.se law ? Yes. .'51092. If you had to (;hoose between a license law and indiscriminate sale of liquor, which would you j)i'ef(M' (- I would choose a licen.se law. .'5109.'5. Why would you prefer a license law to indi.scriminute sale? Because 1 do not think we should take money from an e^■i] thing. :51094. Then you think the license law to be a sin, I suppose? — Most assuredly I flo, ;5109J). Therefore, if tliere is such a law in force, you look upon the conmuniity as having done that which is sinful ? I do. .'51090. Following up that line, J suppose you would rather have prohibition than either of them ? Most assuredly 1 would. .'51097. Do v'ju consider jn'ohibition desirable '. I do. .'51098. Do you consider it practicable >. 7 do. .'51099. Would there not be great ditliculties in enforcing such a measure? There would not be if the (iovernnient gave the necessary machinery and aid that we would ask for, officers to see that the measure was enforced. W"- have not eiiough to see that the license law is enforced, and if 1 am coi'reet in niv view, it is not enforced I y otlicers, .'51100. Is there no police otlicer in the city to look after the law? 1 believe not. ."51101. Have you no Inspector ? We have an I nsjx'ctor of Licences I l)elieve : but he is not a policeman. .'5110L*. Does he look after the enforcement of the license law f I ciiinotsayin regard to that. 3110."5. ]^o you think one policeman can efficiently look after that work / No. 1 am not sure 1 am cori'cct, but I beliexc the License Inspector is tl e Inspector for the ■whole province. .'51104. Do you know if he has any deputies liei-e ( ! do not know, .'5110"). How would you have policemen apiiointed : would y^u have them appointed by the Dominion (iovernnient, by the province or !)y the municipality? 15y whatever botly 1 ad the powi^' of enacting the. prohibition law. ;51iOl). I5y wiioin would you Innc those pciicenien paid? I>y the (Jovernnient. .'51 107. l>o you think the smuggling of ii<|Uor wonici be assuredly prevented if there was a sufficient force of oHicei's a])pointi'(| ? 1 think so. .'5110S. What would be a sufficient force ; would the same nunilier as is now used to prcxcnt smugg'ing be sufficient ? i do not tl .nk any more men would be ri^piired. •'51 lost. J)o you coMsidei- there would be illicit manufacture, for of course any manufacture of alcohol would be illicit? Would tliei'e be illicit stills established all fiver the counti'v, and would they have to be looked after? Yes ; theiv an- .some such now, but they are in a sniiiil way. .'!! I 10. Have you considered in that connection the ([uestion of granting compen.sa- tion i,o br(>w ers and distillers in the e\ent of the enactment of a piMhibitory law ? — I would not com[)ensate them ; tiieir licen.ses only extend from year to year. •'51 1 1 1. Have you observed or formed an (Opinion a.s to the ellect upon the country of their tr.ide, whether it is favouiviiih' or unfavoui'able ? unfavdurable. .'51ir_'. Do you think the ett'ects obserxcd liavt TiioM.\.s Ni.\ox. 88 I think it leen injurious? most decidedly Y( 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ihitioii tliait nnot sav in ."{111.'?. Ill wliat respects? — Take this city. No less than a ([uai'ter of a million ot" t think it finds its way into general circulation.' Nut into the circulation I should like to sei> it given. .'!! 1 17. Apai't from that, are there any injurious etlects on [)ersons, except as regards bar drinking? Yes: i is the fact that men do not pfiy their debts. T am in tiie solicitor's ofKce of the C^anadian Pacific llailway Comjiany, and I know there area large nunii)er of garnishees for the non-payment of small debts wiiich the men owe. There aic a good many of these men who, if they would leave liquor alone, would not be gar- iiisheed, but would be able to j)ay their debts. 311 liS. Do you speak from your own knowledge ? — Yes. .'H 1 19. Would there be any otiier reason 1 — T do not know of any others at the pre- sent moment. .'51 120. Do you think illicit sale of li(|uor prevails to any great extent in the com- numity ?- -1 do not think so. iUllil. The licen.scd houses meet the re(|uirements of the population? Yes, very fully. ;}lll.'"2. Have you ever considered tiie (piestion of the treatment of the persistent drunkard? Have you lived in Toi-onto?- Yes, for years. .'3lll.'.'5. No tloubt you are aware that there ar(! certain classes of people who are constantly being committed to prison for short terms and who aft(!rwards reappeai- before the ]ioiice court ? -Yes. I knew the celebrated Harry HeniT, who was up 14.") times. 31124. It lias been suggested in regard to such [leople that while the license law exists, it would be fai' betler for the population if such people were shut up for consider- able jjeriods .' -[ think it would be. •")112."). They seem to be const'intly travelling lietween the jail and the saloon? - Yes ; but they will not d(> this if you will give us proiiibition. .'51120. \\'liile tlie license law exists, would it not be better to have such men sent to an institute and have them pi'operly treated? Y^'s, send them to an asylum. ."51127. You would, no doubt, hope that such men would be got rid of if prohibition was enacted? I think they would lie. 151 12S. Do you suppose you could have a prohibitory law that would do away with (h'inkiiig altogether? No, I would be very sorry to s.iy .so ; 1 do not hope foi' such a lesult, biit T may say that T have been in a j)rohibition city. •")ll2i). Where was that? In Pasadena, California. While there for two months, .ind having nothing to do, T made it my special business, except on Siiiidays, to go in and out among the people and watch tb operation of the [irohibition whii.'h was in npci'ation there. •'il |."50. How did yrohibition > - Yes, I th). 31 l.'57. Is tliat the kind of prohibition you wish for this country ? That is the kind of prohibition I should like. D would do awav with the manufacture of lii|iior. H9 ^niii 111: .i'i Liquor TraflRc — Manitoba. .'Ul.'};''. S(( tlif pi'dliihitioii you wish would permit tlie seller to obtain lic|U()r for his own ])riv{it(' use and to keep it in the cellar and ifive it to his friends? — If we can do away witii the nianufaeture of li(|uoi- there will nut be much in the country, T presume. 311.'iit. That is the main point of the law ; a man may ha\e as much as he wishes for his pri\ ate use, and he can obtain it from Montreal or Boston or where he pleases and bring it into the city/ — Yes. .■}1140. Would you lie satisfied with that kind (^ prohibition? f would foi- the present. .'U141. That is really the Scott Act? -I w-ould be satisfied with it for the present. M 14-. Do you kn<)'»v where such a l.aw is in force ?— No, T do not. .S114;i. Have you been anywhere where high license prevails?- No, 1 have not. .■U14+. Have you ob.served how the present mode of obtaining licenses is working? — No, 1 have not ))aid any attention to that matter. 3114"). Have you formed an opinion as to whether a I'estriction of licenses wouhl 1)6 desii'able .' — I |)resume it would be, if we are to continue to have lis, in bars or shops, in small (|uantities, and whicii would have the result of preventing the classes of persons of whom you ha\>' spoken, obtaining any for theii- use? Yes ; I think it would do that. 3115!). Are there any suggestions you desire to offer to the Connnission in regard to changes in the law ! I do not know of any at present. Thomas Nixon. 40 uses woui 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ."UltJO. I un(Jorst(tncl you wci'c opposed to a license law alto^'i'tliiM' ? Yes. .'ilKil. Tnkinji tlie juvsent license law. do you think tlie limitation of tln^ number ..t persons who lia\(' licenses and diari^in^f a hi<;her fee. would l)e desiraltle ? I think that would he just as danj,'<'rous as a jifreuter nuinher of licenses at tiio present time. I think .1 better class of citizens, and prohahly a j^reater number of them, would i)e ruined liv those saloons. Men who are able to pay !?1,000 for a license are able to jj;et u]), what we would call, a gilded .saloon, which connnends itself to the a'sthetic tastes of the voting men of the city, and, in my jiidgmt-nt, is more harmful than the present -ysteni. .'ilH)2. Then, you think, that high license is in no way beneficial ? No ; I do not think it is beneficial. .'il ]().'<. Would y(tu place any restrictions on the places licensed 1 Yes. •")1 Itif. Have you ever considered the ipiestion as to whether, if one or other had to lir done away with, it would be better to do away with the saloon, or restaurant, or hutel .' There are no saloons here, j)roperly speaking. .'U165. None of the old-fashioned tirinking places'! — We htive three kinds of licenses; one class is shop licenses, and the other two classes are for hotels and re-^taurants. ;ill()(). If either must necessarily be done away with, restaurant or hotel license, uliich would you prefer to retain? -I think I would f)rcfer to retain the r'cstaurant Hieiise, provided the houses close up at ])roper hours. :U1()7. Would you rather have tlieni than iiotels ? Yes. I a.ssume that they would close when men had got thnnigh their eating —say .seven or eight o'clock in the e\eiiing. Of course the hotels remain open, some of them at all events, all night. .'il IGJ^. Would you prefer allowing both to remain open the same length of time 1~ - I do not know; that would be a pretty difficult (piestion to determine. 1 was in .Maine about thirty years ago, having l)een sent by Mr. Abraham Fairwell, who wished me to spend three months in going through the State. The late Honourable Mr. Cameron of ' (riniston sent two other persons down to Maine to remain three months and report how they found the State, and whether the Maine li(|Uor law was ciirried out in its integrity or not. Their report was to the effect that after travelling through a great many of the rural distric'ts, they were of opinion that that law was remarkably well enforctsd. .■5110!). Was the report submitted in writing? --Yes, it was printed. •'U170. Is it in existence? 1 do not know. ■'51171. Can you furnish us with a copy I — I should like to be able to c)btaiii one for tiie Commission. Mr. Fairwell is dead. 3117"2. Mr. Fairwell,! believe, was an enthusiastic prohibitiojiist? - I understand so, •'M17.'5. r believe he devoted himself largely to promoting the prohibition cause.' — Yes, he was enthusiastic. 31174. Will you try and obtain a copy of that report, as the Connnission will i>e ;:lad to receive it! — I will most assuredly endeavour to find one. •'il 17."). T presume you an; aware that we have much evidence in regard to tiie pre -cut. but not much in regard to thirty years ago? — Quite so. .'ill7r). In regard to your (list:'ict in the North-west; 1 understand your distiict 1,'oes as far west as Donald, llaxc you made personal observation in regard to tiie "(irking of the j)rohibitory law in the North west Territories ? No. I ha\e not. Ihj liev. Dr. McLeod : .'ni77. Your observation of prohibition in California was observation of '.. Locid Option Law and police regulation. I supj)ose ! — 1 have tiie law here with ni.'. The 'iiistees of the town (they are not aldermei^ but common council men) are permitted to adopt an ordinance, under which tiiere ai'e so called police regulations. They passeil -iich an ordinance, tind not less than four times was an eil'ort made to upset it. but the •■Supreme Court of California decided that it shouUI be maintained. .'ill 78. And you think the authorities had not any serious out the duty Thomas Nixon. 42 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 t'actuiv iiiid of citizens, but tlie voters went to the polls voluntarily. Tliey went up to vote as tiu'y (Ifcidcd, voluntarily. :illiO.'i. There was no untiuf intlucncc used?- No, and no money was spent on it, not one dollai'. .■{|l'U4. It was a pure poll ; Yes. .'U'JO."). Was there much a;L;itation aj^ainst it? — I do not think there was any. lilliOf). Tht! people, untnimmelled, expressed their opinions? A'os, they did so. •'{r_'07. Did the vf)te jHilied represent a larjjt^ peicenta;;e (tf the tt)tal vote.' A very liiriie percentajfe. 312UiS. In view of the vote j,'iv('n in Winnipeg, where there are fifty licenses granted, would you understand the large vote in favour of prohibition to express tic Veliiig of the people against the ]iresent license law and in fa\(nir of prf)hibiti()n ? — T would not take the result in any other way. ;Ul'U!). You do not think it was a mere joke ! — No. We held some public meetings in Winnipeg. .'U210. Was there any agitation on the oj)posite side in Winnipeg l-^T do not think there was any. ."Ul'll. I do not mean nece.ssarily liy public meetings, but by personal canvass.' i (jo not know : there might have been. //// Judijc McDonald : '.\\'l\'l. Do you consider it is a sin to di'ink a glass of wine \ I do not. ;Hl'13. Did 1 understand you to place horse-stealing and taking a glass of wine on the same footing? — [ think it is a sin to stt^al a horse, but I do not think it is a sin to (liink a glass of wine. .'Ul'l 1. The ([uestion was put to you in regard to the prohibiting of horse-stealing aTid the sale of wine, not so much as to the sale of wine as to the sale of liipior. Do you think the sen.se f>f the coimnunity is the same in regard to horse-stealing as it is in re- gard to the sale of wine?- -I do not. .'HlJin. Taking your view of the ipiestion, do you tner hope to obtain the same sen- timent in regard to the one as the other? T shall n(!ver live long enough to see that. ■■5121(). In other words, the sentiment of the coimnunity is different towards the one than it is towards the other? — T presume it is, it is against liijuor. •'U217. Mas any attempt been made to {)ass the Sccjtt Act in AN'innijx-gf f think not. •'Ul'IS. \'ou know you ha\t' a right to take a vote here on the Scott Act ?-- Yes, i)Ut we have nt)t taken one. L'1219. The recent large majority in faxour of prohiliitory U^gislation has not yet resulted in a single step being t;do you mean that the Legislature would pass a ]irohibitory law? That is I iieir object. •'il2L*2. Tt is to that you are looking forwafd ? — Y'es. •'5122:5. What will be its effect?—! do not know. ."51224. What was the issue before the electors ?- -License or prohibition, fur piuiii- liition and against prohibition. .■5122."). Then the mode of prohibition was not submitted? — No. •'5122(1. Y'ou have known a city, of which you luive spoken, in California, where IHcihibition li.is been carried, which allows private individuals to have their cellars ^locked with li(iuors for their own u.se, just as people are allowed to do unrler tlu" Maine law and under the Scott Act. That is called prohibition. Do I understand that you iiii'an that the (|Uestion of the total prohibition of manufacture and sah^ was submitted to the people of ^Linitoba ? It was not detinitely submitt(Ml. •'51227. Was any question raised as to whether the manufacture shouhl be interfered with by tlie Provincial Legislature? — No, the (juestion was not raised. 43 ? 7^ Liquor Traffic — Munitolm. ,'112"_'S. 'I'licii I lie |iiii'ticuliirs us I'e^'jirds proliil)ili(iri wvn' not discusMtMl !- No. .'nL'2'.). Do you (U'sire ii proliiWiioiy inciisurt' to !)«• carried? Yes. .'JiL'.'iO, Take tlic iirovincf us you know it - iind of course! vou know it pretfv w.-ll .' I do. ^!i-<'{|. Suliniit to till* |i)>o|)i(> this i|ui'stioM, niukin^' tiit'in U('i|uiiinti'd witli llic cH'pots sliall a law Wi' cnaL'tcd that will jx-rniit a tnan who can atl'ord to buy liijuor al a distance, to iirinj^ it in and till his cellar, liut will jiievent a man, who cannot atlord to :{7. .•{12.'»ii. Would you hoi>e to cariT it in this city / — Yes. And I'arry it eveiy where? — Y'es. That lieinj^ the case, do you need prohibition t — Y'es, we do. Why ; Hecause licenses are f;ranted in tins city. Hut under the existence of an overwhelming sentiment in favoui' of lea\inj; a man who cannot obtain a large (piantily of li(|Uor to store in his cellar, without any litpior, while yf)u a'low a ricli man to have it in abuiulance, would not the sentiment be so strongly in fa\'our of temperance that prohibition might be considered to be an accomplished fact/ -No, I do not think so. ;?1"211. You think the i)eople wtmid still need some legislative restriction/--! think so. '.\\'21'2. iUit the mode they have not yet decided on? (.^uite so. Bi/ Jirr. Dr. M m i ^ g .iegiMj. ' t'gfiavi.s. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .11 ■_'•")!. Ymi miiy iii>t take ii imictifiil \i(iw hh In what wmilcl Ix' |»issil)li' in ciiri'y lit ' I (lid not stiitc what was the best law that irii<;lit lie iia>s('(l. .■{!:.'")■_'. NVduld yim [n'riiiit lii|iii)i' to Ih; l)i(iu;(lit in tor iiUH'luiiiiral pucpuscs .' — Vi's. .'U ■.'•">•'!. .\Ihii t'nf iiu>iii('ii)al |iiirps? — Yes. ."U'J'il .Mho fill' ^acraiiii'iitai purposes ? Y'cs, ct'i'tainly. '\\'2'>-i So, von wonlil not iiitt'i-t'cro with a man's rousi'lcnci' or w .lii his nei'«'ssitii'> .' /.'// A't. Dr. Mr Lend. liJ.'lli. IflhlMV kiis a law in force prohihitin; the sal e"' li(pior. would yon see a yreat. )t' ditl'erencc hi-tween the violation ot' that law. and li \iolatinii ot' the law respeet- wvj. Iiorse stealmi; , In 1 each ease it wonid he a violation of tin- lav I lack to the ScrijitiM'es that every violation of the law is a sin. ippi I inu->t liif J mil ft' MrDoudhl . '■\\ 'I'u . I 'nder our aw s w e ha\e a pena Itv ittached to the oll'enee of leavin'' a horse milled oi' ot allowiii"; cattle to IV. Would v( ^aine hasis as horse-s steali Nd. I U put either of the>~e ollences on t In would not. ■M -•">>'. Is nut horse-stealiii'' a sin of itself, whether tli is law pro In'ltit s It or not : :i! ■_';")'.). Is there nut any dilVerence in these two otl'ences ? I suppose there must -.oiiic (lllIereiK't ITe )ll.'f)(J. Ha\e \du not found that the sentiment of tl le communit V is diil'erent in \ iewiiiir one and the other .' I do not see why a eiti/en should not he made to ohev the law. Jill lirr. Dr. Mrl.r„,l: ."Jllidl. You under.stand the licensiiiif of the drink trade to he a >in .' ^'e^. | think so. '.W'liVl. l)oyou think the sellini; i>i' ijiviiif; to ,iny one of strong drink - a sin .' .Most assuredly, the selling of it is a sin. Tlu're is not a tavern-keeper who ,in kneel down and ask (!o(l to hless his Inisiness durim' the dav if he (Mii'asjes in selliiH' liiiiior iiNcr till har : there is not a man on earth who can do it. Jiij Judge McDonald : il2().'i. Do you favour the withholdinir of church n liersln|) from tiie manufac tureidf li(juor or the distiller ? I helong to the Methodist Church, and if • tlirmi^ii iitV, I rct'i'i' ti> ilit'sc iiicM Piii'a'tcd ill tli<' litiuor business, A'// Jmiiji' MrlJduiild : .'U"-'7i. NVliy lilt you not extend your inijuirir>» to others /- -It no\ er ocfurred to nie to do so. //// AVr. l>,: Mrhod: 'M'l't'l. Am I to undci'stiind tliere ai'e dill'i'i'ent ili';;n'i's of wronj; as helween the ditj'eri'iit riasses i-ngafied in the tr'ade, I mean as to wiietiier thei'e ai'e ditl'erent ile^frees of wroii;; hetween tlie niaiiufacturei-, wholesale dealer and I'etailer '. I eanriol se.' any diM'el'ence. Iti/ Jiiihjv McJJdiiiilil : .'U'_'7.'{. At the same time you are jioinj; to jiei'init the manufaeturei' of lic|uor tor niedii'inal and seientitic purposes to earry on his business ? — He is en<;afj;eil in a perfeetly It'i^'itimate, honourabli^ and U))i'ii;ht business. .■5r_'74. Then youi' idea would be to piohibit nianufaetui'in^ f ir beverage purposes? Most ceitainly. ;irj7"). Ha\e you eonsidei'ed the amount of output you would allow the manufac- tufers foi' medicinal and scientilic purposes I — I have not. .■$I27(). And the kinil of lii|uor yon would allow them to manufacttn'e for nieilicinal and other j)urposes? — No. Ji,) Rr,: Dr. Mr hod: .■?I277. Would you have that business placed under strit't (!o\ernnient control/ — Yes, most assuredly. 1). F. lil'jNAN, of \\'innipef;, hotel-keeper, on beinjj; duly sworn, deposed as follows : — ]iif Jiidyi'. McDoiuild : .■51278. I believe you keep a licensed house in this city 1 — Yes. .■U"-'7i>. How lonjj have you lived here? — Fourteen years. .">rj8U. How lon;j; hn\e you been eii^iaijed in the hotel business ? -Otl' and on for \0 years; I have been si^veral years where I am now. .'IIl'SI. Have there been many changes made in the provisions of the license law .since you started business,' — Yes, .'{ll'S'J, We understand there have been amendments made fr-om time to time and restrictions placed on the sale I — We have been allowed to keep open dui'inj; lonj;er hours than is the case now. ."SriS.S. Then you have now to close earlier than previously. Wiiat- is the senti- ment of those in the business as re<;ards closinj; hours? — I am well satisfied with them. .■H2S4. You are closed 1 believe from 11 o'clock in the evening to 7 o'clock in the morning .^— Until X.'.W. Thomas Nixon. 46 57 Victoria. 8e«i8iomil Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 K. 1'. liKACOCJK, (if St. Itniiit'iicc, W'imiiiH'j;. A;,'<'ni nt' tli<^ Ciiiiiuliaii I'iuilii- l{ail- uav, on lii'iii;,' duly sworn, deposed as follows :- - II 11 JikIiji' Mf DiiiKthl : V nieiiicinai ifcnsc law ;i I lif^'i. Are you a nali\ I' (if t Ills |irovinee ! No, I liave Keen liiTe fouiteen \eai'N. .'>l ■-''"•i. hid you lonie from allot lier pniNiMce of Canada.' 1 caiiie here from l']ii'4- laiid ; I liave livuil in Ontario. .'tll!^7. Have you oceupied any public |)osition si nee you liaxi? Iicen in tiiiN pro\ ince > 1 lia\(' lieeii reme of Kiidoiian, warden of Selkirk, a iiiemher of (he iiei,'isl,it iv e A>semlily and Maj;istrate, in fact I have heen almost e\erytliinj;. LM^'^^f^. As a memlier of the Le;,'islature, had you anyihin^to do with the ju'epara- liiin of tlit> license law .' ^'es, i prepared the Act of l,*f ciuirse this has hoeii taken as expressing the opinion of the jieopU" in favour of prohibi- tion, for it has been represented to us that the majority given was a very large one. If that indicates the o|iiiiion of the people, how do you account for the lack of moral coiiriige to enforces the present law .' Simply for this rea-on, that a greati many ('oiis(>r- \aiives wished to place the ( ioNcriinieiit in an awkward position by voting for prohibi- lion. I imagine the motive of the Conservatives was to see what the Local ( io\ ernmeiit would do if that vote were carritHl. •'Ul.".)4. 'J'liat is not an answer to the c|uestion. The witness to win 'in I refer, .Mr. Nixon, state that the vote was an expression in favour of prohibition by the people of .Manitoba. As I understand you, the votegi\eii was not dui' to that .' -It was no ex- pression of jiublic opinion in favour of prohibition ; it was rather an expression of opin- ion that the local lii-ense laws were not properly carried out and that \i'ry seriiais results would follow. l!|'_'!l."). Then it was not a vote in favour of prohibition ? 1 1 was a declaration in favour of .--troiig measures being taken in regard to dealing with the trallic, but not in fa\oiir of prohibition yv-r xf. • illiyt). You have stated that the olKcer of both political parties lia\-e beiMi to blami' for the non-enforcement of the license law and for lack of moral courage. ( )f what are tlii-y afraid .'-They are afraid (jf the hostile opinion of tlu; licen.sed victuallers ; tlicv are also afraid of intluenccs being brought to bear on them to stop )U'o.set-ulioiis. 'i'liere is no reason whatever w'liy a man who is Attorney (General of this province, whether he is a total abstainer or liot, should not know perfectly well that the law is not enforced. It is not enforced, and no one attempts to enforce it. •■il2!)7. Ff the opinion of the majority of the jieople was favourable to strict enforce- iiieiit, how couM the (Jovernment resist that sentiment ? — Th(sy do not resist it, they go to sl(M>p. •'il"Jl)f<. If that sentiment is for prohibition, how can they, in \ iew of the power and intluence exercised by those in favour of enforcement, yield to tiie other sitle ? — For the very simple reason tha.t the people talk and do not enforce their views. ■:«i. Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. iri'.l'.l. You think it is ii mt'ii' iiiiitur of t;ilk .' -Xo doiiht tlic license hi w would h( 1 I). more elliiiently enforced except fo; tli" fact tluit undei' writs of rirtinmri a j;reat many l)ros(;cutions lia\e l)een (|uaslie'l and .ludj;es liave aiimded i'on\ ictions, so tliai no .Mai,'is- tfate tfies to |)foci'ed with any cases. ;$|.'itJO. So tiiei-e ai'o local difViculties in the way .' — Ves, entirely so. ;n301. You have (dfeady told the Commissionei's that tlie diMieulty was nor from writs of riTfiiirdri, liii' that the ( io\ernmeiit was affiid to enfoice th(> law .' — '{'he (iov- ernment diies not spend sufVicient money or expend suthcieiit cnei't;y or emplo It numi)er f)f oHicei's to put dow n the illi 'ic tratlic that ])re\ails under the j I suth resent law. .■MilOi!. Is not the ,iul)lic the re)»resentati\(' of pul)lic opinion, and is not the (Jox-- ernmeiit controlled Ity that opinion ,' The ( io\ crnmi'nt has followed ])uhlic opinion ■".- far as it s'lited itself. .'il .'{D.'i. Do you think this a ipirstion on whicn peo'^le will not follow up their 'pin- ions with their votes'? That no doubt ajijdies to the peo,.ie of Winnipeg;. IftheAitor ney ( lene: il would employ ollicers to thofoui,ddy enforce the licpior license law , 1 he lie\e the i'innent"s action would he approxcd. ;ii;{l'k l>o you think the people of .Manitoba to-day ai'e pre] tared to support the enactment of ,i law that would prevent < he manutactiu'e. im]ioitation and sale ot into.vi eating li(|Uors foi- hevetage purposes' No. We woulil i-e(|uirc, in the first piace. toh pu',' ]ires( nt law enforced for some years ; then such would follow natuiallv. 1 another law as vou iiave ii idicatt .!ll?0"). Would you favour the otlier law yourself .' it mit,'ht li'' a threat hlessinu to tlie pe> !'le. >()(!. I )o \ou think a prohibitory law would be a(h isable .' It would )e a u'reat ) lessiui,' to the country in the future, but T (piestion tli" ad\ isability of introdui'intr it at the ])resent moment. .■>1."U)7. You do not think it ]>ractical)le at thepi-esent time.' (.4)u te .so. .'U.'U)S. In case such a l.iw was j)a^sed, would you favour the payment of compen- satio!) to brewers and distillers for their business beinj; destroyeV(iuld l)e ipiasheil on writs of i-rrlinvuri, and frieiidN of mine ha\(^ asked me to indicate to them the lines on which to proceed. .'il.'ft)!t, Have you considered the cpu-stion of the enforcement of a prohibitory law. if one were enaeteoyoll ri'^ai'il the rn-rnS, \oti' as an I'Xprcssion of [uililii- o|)iMioii ' 1 ii'^-afd it a.-- a vote wliicli was lary:('ly iiianiiuiiatcd foi- |ioiiticai |>iiriio-.cs. ."il-'ll'.t. I undi'fstaiid tliat, in your opinion, nioif liinior was drmd< intlir N'ortli- ui'si 'rcriiiorics under ]>roiiiliilion tlian is tiic i-asc now ,' I )('cidi'dly so. .'il.'V'", I low do yon account t'oi tiial cii'cuinslancc .' The hotel krc|>ci- i,-. tlic licsi- license ins|ieclor you can have. He will pi'ev cnl 4it her people selling; in order to protecti his own iiusiness, and he will eiulcaNoiir to cai'ry out the law in that resjiect. ( >t' conrsi> hi' !■- <'ndea\ oiiriiii;' to carry on a ri'.s|)ect:at)le house, and it there is illicit sale ^oiiig on. he will endeaxoiir to suppress it, and it' neces- .I'-y, he wil! lay int'oi'inatioii. .■il."i21. ^'ou have said that considerahlc (|uai.' it ies ot lii|Uor wi'i'c admitted into the North-we^l Trrritoi'ii'^ hv ppni'il and that some jieopje wmild licconi.' drunk ' Vc-. ."> I .")L'"_'. And then tor two or three inoi\t lis t hev wouhl not lie alile to j.(t"t anvlii|Uor.' .Not unless they happened to 1,'et a permit. In tlic old days when one person ^ot ii pciiiiit. every liody knew it, and there would lie a i-c;,'ular jauihoree when liipior arrived. .\tt"r that ti'i.e owino- to dilliculties of transiiortat ion, it did not fi-eipieiitly come in ; hit recently I an told I do not know this from my own knowlediie that in every place in t he 'rerrilorics more whiskv was to lie had liefore t he railway reached theri^ than there's now. .\l r. .Mel )oiiald, I he menilier for l^el lilirid^c, whfiis.i total alistainer, lold iiie that it has lieen diderent since the liicn-e law came into force, and he stated in the .\ssemlily t'u' ad\iintaj;es of the License .\ct. ;'i I •">■_';). ^'ou know that of your own know led:;'e ,' 1 know that in t he Tciritories I here is much less di';idl.'4. You think there is mucli less drunkenness now .' ho not the pcii|ile drink regularly, whereas liefore they cc.idd only yet it occasionally.' No. N'ou could ai'count for that very much on the principle of the little hoy stealini; apples They have no Iroiilile in ifeltinu it ii(jw,iin(l (.'oiiseiiuently they do notliother their heads aliout. it. The whole fault is that the license system in .Manitoba is luit enforceil. There should he viirilant oliiccrs to proper! v ' -ok aftei' the enforcement of the law. and if iheic vmmc such olticers public sentiment wo'.ld be absolutelv fiivmiridile to them. It is undoubtedly tavourable to a se\ ere licen, e lavv, which would not let otroll'enders w it h low tines. Public -eiitiment is in fav ■ ir of ;i striiii^'Piit license law and is not in favour of i:ivini,' trivial pmiislnnei;ts to persons v.iio will sell liipior to drunkards for I'xample, or allow men to leinain in barrooms until I ht^y uei drunk. Theie is a strong feidin.ij that parties should he severely dealt witi: for thes(> ollences. .'U.'i2">. You are interested m the license law ; is the license law that I rcl'erred to a whik' alio the license law you prepafed, or that Mr. Ttipper prepared .' It i.'i th(> one, very much iiioditied, adopted by the present ( !ov crnmeiit, with many restrictive clauses taki'ii out. .'ii;!l.'('.. It is the law wl ich .Mr. Tupper pre|iarctl .' W'h.it .Mr. Tupper pnjiared was the .Vet which I. as Chairman of the Coininittee, revised. ■ Uol-'T. I uiulerstood that there were certain amendments made by yourself or -oiiie one (!lse later .' There were amendments made by myself. .M r Tupper dr.ifted llic hill, which was |irejiared from the .Mc("aithy .\ct and also the ( (ntario .\ct. I took 'hat Hill and very much revised it, in reuard to clauses providiiiu for prohibition in certain cases and other clauses of that dcscrijit ion ; of course, I changed it verv-jnnsi- dcrably. ^il.'iliS. Is it the I'ldv incial .\ci you arc considerini;- .' -'I'lie present Provincial .\ci. li vv.is chaiiffed by tiie Conservative party in lSS7,))Ut at no other time, .Mr. Hamilton, vvliii calls himself a total abstainer, wii- Attorney (Jeneral, and he was forced bv the licensed victuallers to iimcnd the Act vt-ry much. 49 :)l^-.4** I f i llttlHl I'ii H f i jiquor Traffic — Manitoba. 15 1. '{l'!). Since 111.' it lias been aiiiciulcMl several times, each time in t'axour of the licens.Ml \ictuallers ,'- \'es, absolutely in their fa\()ur. 1 shall send the Commission a }jamj)hl(!t whiih 1 p'jpared in uonnectiua with the amemlments J read to the eom- mittee. 1 may sa'* that the Act has lieeii practically spoiled. .'{l.'i.'iO. Youlelie\o that eventually the country will he ready for ])idliil)it ion ?- I believe that (;ventually, in yi>ars to cfjnie, we will ha\e jirohibition, for jiublic sentiment is growiiiff that way. 3l;3."il. And the I'igid enforcement of the license law represents that feeling, inyoui- opinion? — Yes; and when prohibition does come it will be a blessing for the country. Pnblif sentiment is ripening and is tending towai'ds it, and at the same time we feel that the fust step has been taken to prepare for that result. Tile Commission adjourned. E P. Leacock. 50 J 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ■I :1 WIN\]rK(!. OctolHT L'.")tll. lS<)-_'. Tlir U' M,-D,>,mhl: ."•i .").!•_'. I iii\di'istand you arc Mayor of Winnipeg? Yes. ."> I •">.■>.''!. How long liu\c you resided in this city.' 'J\vcuty-onc years. ;'il •'!•'> 1. How long lia\-c you been .Mayor? — Since .January last. Ill.').'i-"i. \\'eiv you an .\ldernian before that time? — I was an .Mdennan in 18iS7 and l■■<^,S. .':|:ili(). Is the Mayor elected by the (leople .'- Y(!s. • ii.).">7. Is lie elected by the direct xoto of the electors? — Yes. .")l-">-'>S. Of course In- presides over the City Cuuiicil?-— Yes. ."U;!'!'.'. Mas he other duties to ])erforiii as chief executive otiicer of the city? -Yes, lie is t 'haiiinan of tlit^ Police Commission. ;!I-1IU. 1 suppose he is called u))()n to exercise general supervision over municij)al atl'air.'.. Of course when 1 he Council is not in session, he has many matters on which he iin act on his own responsibility .' Yes, in c.i.-cs of urgency, but we ha\'e not iiianv such cases. •'U.'SH. I l)elie\c ill business yod are w wholesale grocer? Yes. •"pl'il2. Tln're has been a large dev('lo|Miient of trade in the city, 1 understand, diiriiiu' ihe last tweiity-(»ne years ? Yes ; our present |)opulation is about iiO.IJOO. .'il.'ibi. What was the po])nlatioii when you came here? .Vboiit I.UOO. .'W.'UI. Was it still callecl lAnt (!a;ry, or was it known as Winnipeg.' The ( )ld I'mt was callefl Fort (iarry, and up at this end it was called Winnipeg;. • il.'ib"). l)uriiig the years you have been here, ha\e you noliced a ch.uige in the social custom-; of the jteople in regard to drinking habits .' Do you think there is as imich lii|iior prop.iitionately used as there was in the earlier d;'ys of :he settlement .' J think about the same projioit innately. •il.'Sbl. What lemilatioiis had you in thosi' days in r:'L;ard to the sale of liipior.^ — T really do not know. • il'M?. Was t here a license la \ infone.' I think there was no restriction as to the >al" of lii[Uor ; or if so, it was very slight. •''Nils. .Ml liijuor came in at "Jo cents jier gallon duty under the old Dominion law, dill it not .' 1 think there was a license of a small anioiiiit, but 1 forge! the sum. 'riiere were only two or three hotels here at that time. • ililil. The trallic was not at all under such restrictions ;,s it is to-day in the way of a License Act, limiting the hours, and e\ervtliiini' of that kind .' Xo. • >L'i-'')U. During I he years you have been here, has there beei an ad\ain'e in the coiiiiiiuiiit V in the direction of temperance seiiliineiit and so (in. llave teiii|ierance oi^anizalioiis obtained a foothold here.' - N'es. •'U.'i'il. .\nd they, of course, are carrying on their work .' Yes. • ' I ."i'il'. .\re you as Mayor, a iiiembi r of the lioard of License Commissioners .' N"o. • iLir),"). Havt\ you studied the working of the license law ? We will take the mode of obtaining a license, in the lirsl place : does your law reijuire a ccn'tain number of sig- 21_4J** 51 i 51 \„ 111 .-.i l i ■■.li! Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. t lii'i'i il'a^sR]' luitiiri's lu nil :ii)[)liL"it iiiii t'lir license .'-A'es, a eertaiii iiiiiiilier uf the iieui'e.sl iieiglihoiir.'- lire re(|uii-ed to si,i;ii. ;51.'5-")4. In regard to tliiit liiiuicli ut' the sulijcut, jifc tliei'c any aiiiendments you coulil sunj^est that iiiinht be advantageous as to the workiii.u of th(> Act.' 1 tliiiik it is fairly sat ist'aetory, .'i I .'{rio. Tala' the license law il'^elt': liow do you lind it is ohserxcd liy the iikmi en- ;^aged in the tialKc : does it appear to he fairly well ohserved, for instanee, cs to the pro iiihition of sale on Sunday ! —No, I am sorrv to sav it lias not lieeii enfori ed \-erv well in thai ies|ire there is a high lic;'nse there is a temptation to sell cheap coni- poLinds, so that a man is more easily recouped for his outlay, 'riici!, agaii , where there Is |)roliil)ition : owing to the risk of seizure of li(|Uor, a man doe.s not w am to keej) an e.\pensi\e slock on hand, but he has cheap stufV compounded to sell. It has hi^en con- leiided that one of the results of high license wiaild he that it would lead to the selling of poor licpior ; and I understand you would favour a rigid inspecti was the slightest danger of liipior being adulteraled. I wnuld I'ertainly fa \dur inspect ion. .■)l.'i(i."). Have you noticed, in your experience here, whether the liipior trade has had any elVect on business generally, and if so whether injuriously or otherwise? I could not '-ay thai I h.ivc noticed that it has had any eil'cci on business one way Or the other. .'U;i(iii. In whai part of ('.■inada did you reside before you came to I his city .' — I was ihree years in .Scaforth, Huron County. .'ll.'>()7. Was the license l;iw in force there l-A'es. • il'itis. Haxcyou noticed whether tliere is much illicit sale in this city ; I mean sale by unlicensed jieojile ? I do not think so, 1 lia\i' not noticed any. .'{l.'Uiit. Ha\(' you any reason to suppose there is any.' 1 liaxc no reason to suppose (here is any. .'U.'iT'l. Ha\<' you considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the ]iersistent drunk ard .' We lind that in some places where the Commission have sat, ihcre are ineii a ho get drunk continually ;tnd who are sent to jail for short terms, and as .soon as they are out they are sent back again. It has been suggested that a system should be ailopted by which such j)ersons should be siuit uj) until they had lieeii cured of the habit. Would you f voursut'h a system rather than tlwit at [U'e.sent followed of sciidiiii; these people to jail foi- short terms ? Have you considered that iiriiti'(l iMiM' ; Not :■ lirovisidii. n'. matter a lias sat is. lall iiuiiilu'i' lliosc plai'cs isi' licensed les. llavo isideraticiii, 111 cit' li({Lllll' luiieated, eiirv is imi clieaji I'liiii- k iiere tliere til keep an lieen eon- ead to tlie ill order to !■ ot' lii|Uor t rade lias r\\ ise .' I lay or the y .'-I was : I mean I sii|i|ii ise it drunk- men >\lio s tliey are adopted the lialiil. lillil' these ;5l;i71. Wliiit pro\ ision is iiiaiU; in tjiis eity, or has ^iiere been any provision iimdo ill the way of public parks for the peojile .' -Tliere has been no [>i-o' ision made in that. wav. except a private park owned by Nir. Austin of the Sti t Haihvay Coin| any ; it is ai 1 he south end of the city. Then there is an ivxhibition Ljrouiid near t he ( 'anadian racilie Itaihvay, at the noi'th tMid. .'il.'JT-!. Are any entertainments pro\i7"). Are tliere no enteriaiiiiiieiits provided at the Ivxhibition (Jrcaiiids, noihiiii; in the way of ,i;'y in nasties, and is there no admission fee charged ! There is the Win iiipcL;' Industrial ivxhibition lu^ld once a year, and a fee is changed for admission. .■)1."p7 resort to saloons, and they ;;■('( the flesh air and enjoy themselves. Have you considered the nueslion of pro\ idiiig >ucli a ]ilace for yoir city .' -Xo, we have never considered that ([uestion. .■il:'i7''^. Perhaps your population is not sulliciently large to render such a ]iark iiec^sary .'— The matter has not been brought up for discussion. The ipiesiion of parks lia-> been discussed, not because we are in need of tlieiii at the present time, but simply liecaiise we desire to pro\id(! for the future, and of coursethis is the time when weshoukl pi(i\ ide our jiarks. .")l;i79. Your air is so fresh and puiv yet that you have no need of ojieii s|iaces such ,1^ are retpiired by large cities in thi^ east/ No, our population is not crowded, but is pretty well scattered over a large area. .'Sl.'iSO. Have yon considered the (piestion of the ad\isability of encouraging the Use of light wines and ales, and doingaway with the use of strong li([Uoi'sas a stimulant ! 1 ha\e thought the matter over a little, particularly in connection with my e.xjierii'iice in the 2sortli west when the tiovernment .dlowed i per cent beer to go in there. I iUi not think from what I have seen that tliere is much to be said in ita favour. .'il.'i81. 'I'lien you ha\e had experience in tin North-west Territories ?- Yes. .'il.'}S2. Hav(? you had experience in any other country where jjrohibition is enforced ? -No. ;U.'5S;{. Will you state your experience in ihe Nortli-west .' I iiave done busines.s in the North-west Territories at least fifteen <<>■ sixteen years at diflerent points, and the ert'ec of prohiljition there during the first f.-iglit or ten years was I think very good, and in the interest of the country, because the law was i-arried out, so far as I I'ould jiidge, to the letter. Of course I'ecently they became more lax. and within the last four or live years I think the law was not enforced at all, in fact I know it was not. I helii've that in view of the condition of affairs that prevailed, it was much better to drop the permit system iind adopt i\w improved system which now pr hy the same ollicers? — I could not say : I liaM' not gone suHiciently into the i|uestinn to he ahle to state what iiiachineiy would he neces- sary to carry out the law. .">i;lilL'. i)oyou consider that in coiinerlion with sucii a l.iw and its enforcement, it Would 1)1' necessary to have a Vi'fv laii,'e majority of tiie jteople in favour of it. In other Words, lake such a law as that which we are discussinff, do you iielie\cif .~i!l were ill favour of it and -ID against it, you could \ cry Ciisily enforce it.' Thai would he :i jii'ctty narrow majority. :>l;>'.t:i. Some suggestions h;i\e heen made in reirard to wlial the uiaioiily uiiiihl he, or rather as to what majority might he considered (o lie ad\ i-;id)le, and some [leople have expressed the opinion t hat there must he a decided trend of )iuMic sentiment in ffiAOUr of such a meas\u'e, much moi'e thun a hare ruajority, in oidei- to make it a suc- cess?--! do not .see why that slutuld he iieee-l)ec might vote against it; Ontario might he divided or hold the Imlance : liritish (,'ohnnhia might gi\e ten to one against it. Could you hope to enforce a law with great success when it came to be applieil to all the provinces if carried in thai way '. There would lie more ditii- culty on the Parilic coast. • U.'ill.j. Coidd you hope in a counnunity recording a \ote of ten to one ag.iinsi a law. to he able to etifoi'ce that law. sti'ictly .' -J think so. ;!l;5!)ti. To sum up the matter, you are favourable to the enactment of a pi-ohibi- tory law for the Dominion, a law )irohibiting th • manufacture, impoi'tation and sale of intoxicating litiuor, provided the people were in favour of it I -Of course unless the majoriiv of the nu'inhers re|)resent ing the peo]>le in the Donn'nion were in favour of such a measure, it could not he |iassed. •"U.'i'.tT. 1 mean the enactment of such a law. iiut perliap.'r you woulil fa\our a ple- biscite for the IJominion on such a question i — You have stated that one province naght be very much against such a l.iw, and another pi'ovince consideral)ly in favour of it. ] should not like to answer the ([uestion as to whether or not it would bed(>sirable for the Dominion to pass such an .Vet at tla^ ])res(>nt- time, without ascerlaininu lirsl what was the feeling of fhepeo]>le of (.'finada as a whole. ;{l.'?ilS. I'^roni your study of this subject, wcadd you f;i\our a re-solution being adopteil which would .allow each province to act tor itself on this ipiestion? No. .■)1.'{!I9. Then you would eithei' make it a national ipiestion or not at all? Y'es, because I do not think the ]u-ovince could verv well enforce the provisions of such an Act. .'il U)0. ^\'hy ; It would he much more dilHcult to enfoiceit. The law should 1)o passed by the Dominion Parliament foi' the l)ominion. .'51 K)i ■_'. \in[ lia\e really, then, not worked out in your mind any delinitc scheme orjilan you would adopt in dt>;ding with this matter? — No. .'U 4 ()•"). Are there any suggestions, dr.iwn from your ex])ericnee, you can oU'ertotho Conunission in regard to any matter connected with this ini|uiry that you think would l)e of benelit ? — No; T ha\e not given i he mattei' ^utlicient consideration to \('nture to make any suggestions. • il l')l. Sup)iosing such a law were ])assef intoxicating liquors, it would he only I'iglit that those jier.sons should Im! coinpensate(; for any loss they might sustain. Ali:.\aniii;h M( Dovai.d 54 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 iec olHcers, tlicr imiiii- i|ial all'airs. I liavc; not I I 1)0 iicce.s- rccnicnt, it I a 1)1 licr it' -"i'.! wi're ivould he a )• mitrlil !)(', iiiH' |»'()|)le itimciit in :e it a suc- r provint'o I'rn\ inces mi;;ht vfite might ii\\t' leu it came iiiort' (hrti- 3 againsi a a |iii)hil)i- md sale of uiiicss the fa sou I' of our a ]>U'- tifc iniijht ■ (if II. I )lc fur ihc what was ion hi'inii o. II ' Yes, such an Should he ■ sfhenio l( leitotlie k would liliire to with the I's, sho\dd 1 think he only I By Rfv. Dr. Mi'Leod: I .")1H)'). You lla^•e stated lliat the license law ha\e heeii hiitter oh>erved in Winni- % jieg recently. To what do you atUihule tiie hettei- ohsei'vanee? -Tiit^ ([uestion as to the i enforcement of the License Act was hrought up cai'ly this year, and the Dejnity .Minis- .;;; terof Justice stated that the duty helonged to the city. The Boai'd of I'olice Commis- •^ sioneis claimed that it rested with the IJepartnient of .Justice, and thei'e has heeu agood ) deal of eori'i'spondence in legard to tlie niattei', and recently we hav^■ heen pi'essing it. % I tiiink ))i || wcie enforcin;,' the law here, have heen looking mor(! carefully after the \iolations. ji; ;)l4(Jt). I was told that last Sunday and dufing a good part of the wei'k, all the M' liolels were closed up at a pro]iei- liour in the e\-ening and closed on Sunday uhieli I M luideistand has not heen the case hefore. Then the attempt to secure hcl lei' enfor^-i'- % iiieiit has done good '. -Y'(.'s, it has done good so far. I :il K»7. Do you heliove that if an lionest attemjit wei-e niadi: to enforce the law, it ;1 could he enforced? — I do not think there is the slightest trouhle in carrying it out, M except in .some special cases. ^ .'!1K)S. You have spoken of your I'Xpeiience in and knowledge of the North-west A Tiiriiories. and 1 think you stated that during the early y<'ars of the prohihitory law, ■i, it s'.'emeil to jiroiluee a very good eil'eet indeed ?--Y''es. •| .iliOU. But latterly I undeistand it was not so w('ll enforced. Did it lose its xf enforcement ahout the time of the introduction of the 1 ])er cent heer f — I think the ,* non-enforcement hegau hefore that : that is to say, that pci'uiits hegan to he issued •% indiscriminately. S .'il no. That non-enforcement kept f)n inci-easing, I.supi)ose, ano you think ;| it would have been better, if in.stead of resorting to the granting of licenses, an honest ^ ethirt had been niiule to enforce a prohihitory law in the Territories, such a.-, that in ^ force in the early years. l)o you think the granting of licenses produced a better state. i^ of tilings than the former system, because the permit system j)erinitted li(iuor to go in 'I e\('ry where. Do you think it would ha\(' heen better' to ha\e more ligidly enforced tlu! ';; law,' 1 do not know whether with the extent of territory you have there, and with hcpior ;dl r(jund it, you could hav(> carried such a law out successfully at the present % time. % •">llll. The law was, as vou have >tated, \erv well carried out in early years? — ■ •'/ The territory was largo and the number of people in the country was very small. I now spc d< more particularly of the northern .section. 1 belii'\e a. good deal of liipioi' was ^: hiiiiigiii in from the south, it being smuggled ; but in the Saskatchewan district, at *. I'.dmonton. Prince Albert and I>ittleford, I beli(^ve the law was carried out almost to ? till' letter. f have no doubt i)rohi!)ition could b(> fairly well enforced to-day, althoiigli probably not as well as in early days. 1.; .'51412. r supi)ose a large population and railway faiilities. which nudce transport ea-,iir, iiiak>^ a great difference ; but 1 understand you believe that with proper othcials and proper attention to the law. it could Ite faiily well enforced e\i'ii now .' It could be fairly well enfor'ced. 31 H."). i)(j you thiidc that (luring the \>\u's there w.is enfori'cmi'iit, it was a great h(Mielit to the country 1 — Y''es. 31114. Was the plebiscite in .Manitoi)a a \ cry em|)hatie e.xpression of the opiinon iifthe people on tlie ((uestion of prohibition.' l)o you think peo[>le were really in earnest in voting for prohibition .' [ think so. 3111."). ^V(^ have had it in evidence that they did it r.ir fun ; and of course as you have been in the country a long t ime as a resid^-Tii and are wi-11 acpniinli'd with the Jieople, I thought I would ask you whether you thought the peojile meant their vote on this iptestion to he a sort of joke? — 1 think they ineatK it. •") 1 1 1('). 1 )id not \Viiuii|)eg give a \ery large majority in fa\ out >f prohibition ? — Yes. 31417. Would that seem to mean that tin- people of Winnipeg' aie decid»^ily opjioseii to the license law, and that a large majority of them are in favour "rf prohibition? I should .say so. There is not any ditiiculty in enforcing the licence law in Winnipeg. 55 !l Ml Mil Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ."^ItlS. I utidcrstiind tliiit ;i 1,u'l;o inajority lire opposeil to it? — No, not utiill. •'ill 111. |) wt)ul(l lu'ces- sarily sujipoit the Scott ^\.ct, because many, no doul)t, xoted on tliat question as giving expression to their views on the (piestion of prohibition. 31 (•_'•'>. Is not the Scott Act prolii!)itioii ? Only to a limited extent, not distinctly st). •')1 ll!l. l)o you take it that this vote in the jiroxince was foi- the iirovince or for the Dominion .' -1 take it t hat the xote \\as for the ])rovince, and expressed the \iews of the province clearly. 3142"). Why shfiuld you not, when you are favourable to prohibition, use the means at your connnand as a trial, at all events? — The vote tluit was taken has had not the slightest legislative eilect that I am aware of. 31 4i.M). May it not have had some effect on the ndnds of the legislators in mould- ing their action, and yet at tlu? same time you have, when you choose to exercise it, the right to adopt the Scott Act without the favour of the Legislature? — A\'e cannot submit the Scf)tt Act to the people. 31427. You may have prohibition for a period of three years if the Act is adopted, and if it is then a success, you can continue it in operation, and if it is not a success, you can get rid of it. Has there been the slightest agitation amongst the people in favour of carrying the Seott Act? — 1 think the temperance associations made some move in that direction a year ago. 31428. I ir.ean since the ])lebisciti> was taken? — No move has been made by them. 3112!). Is it your opinion that the people favour some larger measure? — T take it that they endorse a larger measui'e. 31430. In taking this vote, was any ipu'stion of machinery or mode of crystallizing the sentiment of the people into an Act of ParlianuMit subnnttetl to the people, or was it a bare vote for or against prolnl)itit)n ? — Yes. 31431, Then the method of pi'ohibition was not submitted ? — Not so far as T know. Jiji lis ; do you give the preference to men who arc drinking nu'ii ? — I think my men, although I nev(ir asked them th(! (juestion, ai'e all temperate, but I do not say they are total abstainervS. 3143"). Having to select employees, and choose between men who aic haliitual drinkers and those wlio are total abstainers, woidd you give the preference to abstainers ? — I would not have an habitual drinker. 31430. He is less valuable to the employer? — Yes, aiul 1 have had a good deal of experience on that point. Ale.xaxdkr McDonalij. 06 le some 57 Victoria. SeK.sional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .")ll.">7. I )i»'s tluMlritik liiiliii iiflrci t lie \vii!.;t'-<'iiriiiiii,' power of ciiiployi'cs, ii\ yoiir >]iiiiion ; - A'cs. till' drink li.iliit loses more or less .'il4;58. JlilNi' you liotiee(| whether ;i Mian liii\iii lime on account of tlie liahit .' — ^Ves, lie loses time. .'il-t^i'.). lOmployers claim tluit they h)se Ity men i)eini,' idle on account of their drink haiiit, and not alone l)ecause they drink, hut because tlie ilrink haliit makes them iirei;ulaf at tlu-ir woik ? l''.mployers say tliat some kitids of work are interfei'ed witli liecause when one man drinks, a ;:aiii; is sometimes hroki'U up and work is liindeied. ."•IMO. Ifave you o!)ser\'ed whether it is true that the drink haltit not oidy iuter- fircs with the man liimself, aiul causes him to hjse w.iijes, but that it also interferes with other men who are eiiL'ayi d in I he same ^' mu ? In mv case I ha\'e liad some troulile, Ijut it lias only allected the man himself and not the rest of the men. .")| 111. Did it all'ect your business iindertiikiiig ? — Yes. ."il 14l'. As a business man, lia\e you noticed that tin- drink trade has an injurious cU'ect on other iiranches of business.' }la\-e you noticed that the men are able to pur- chase less of other articles because they drink, and that Tnev are poorly paid because they drink .' — 1 could not say so from personal obsei'vatioii. ■ Mll.'i. Some business men claim that men with tlio dri'>k habit are more jioorly paid than if they liad not sucii a habit, and that tiiev sutler fromtiiis drawbai'k in adilition to the money they waste on drink .' — To ra certain extent tliey lose money, which they would otherwise spend in other lines of trade, but to what extent it .lilecls business, I t'annot say ; thouijh if they took- the money sjient on li(juur, they could well -jiciid it in some other direction. A'y Judyr McDonald ; '■\\\\\. What do you mean by an habitual drinkei' ? — A man who drinks st(>adily, probably not always to excess, or a man, as I have seen them, who will not taste li(|uor for months and then yo off anil get on a .spree for two or three weeks at a time. .'ill \->. Take a man who drinks a glass of ale every day at his dinner : doyiui mean a man of that kind /-No, •'ill Hi. You mean a man who "itlier habitually drinks to excess, or occasionally ut by the drinking habit you nu'an such habit as is the habit of men you speak of.' — Yes, that of a man who takes liipior in exces.s, or if not taken to excess, takes three or four drinks from time to time. \n such a cases their ajjpetites have pos- session of them, aiul it is only a nuestion of time till they go. of your ng men '/ te, but ] labitual ;tainers ? x\ of 1 J •I.VMKS L. iSTEKN, of Winnipeg, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: — liy Jiidye MrDonahl: ."51 44!). What position do you occupy in this city? T am President of the Winni- ]icu' iioard of Trade. .">I4.")(). Mow long have you been a resident of Winnipeg? I have been a resident of this city for 11 years. •'il451. How long ha\e you been President of the Hoard of Tr.ide .' -This year only; the election goes by rotation. ."{hirii.'. In what line of business are you engaged.' I am a jirinter and publisher. .314o.'i. t)f a newspaper f Of a purely trade journal. .'il4r)4. How long have you iioeii engaged in the business ?- -Ten years or a little 'i\er ; (>ver since I came here. •'ilirj."). Did you come from any other Province of Canada to Winnipeg?- I came iicre from the citv of C'hicago ; I never lived in Canada before coming here. 57 :' Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .'il I •")(>. HiiNt' yiiii olisci'vcd llic udikiii^' nt' tli<' lii|uiir l,i\v in t liis I'ldvimc ; I Ii;i\ r not ;^i\('ii liny |>iii'ticuliir study \i> tlic workiii!^ of (lie li(|U()r law iiiyscit'. .■ill">7. Tlit'ii you ai'c not in ii jiosition to state wlictlicr its |niivisioiis iirc! well obsiM'\('il oi- not ? -I oould not siiy as to its details, hceause [ lm\e ni'ver watched tlieni so elo^ely as to know w liat the (h'tails of the Act are. ;U loS. Are you alih^ to ex|ii('ss an opinion as to whet tier I lie Siniday prov isions are well ol)sei\ I'd or not .'I could not say ; I he fact of the ni.itler is, I am not w hei-i' lii|Uor- is sold on Siuiday. ."illo'.l. Then you lia\ !■ no knowledge on that iHiint.' On that point I coulil not jiWc the (."onnnission any infoi mat ion. .■il4(iO. As a business man, aic you in a |>osition to know whether the tratiic atTccts tilt! business art'iirs of the ooimnunity, injuriously or benelieially .' -That is a pretty wide <|U(^stii)n. I hav(> known many indi\idu;ds to whom the excessive use of di'ink has done harm. Xo man can deny that fact. I have seen a nund)er of individuiil cases \vher(^ men liax'e caused themselves a inicat deal of injury by the excessive use of li(|Uor in l)Usiiu'ss, but when it comes to cases of bard. IIa\-eyou studied the ([uestion as to the advisability of encomai,Mng the use in with the prohibition party myself before I left there, because the roughs and toughs as a body are opposed to prohibition, whereas the respectable party are on the prohibition side, and therefore I went with them. My biother-in-law has worked strongly with the jjrohibition l)arty for thirteen or fourteen years. His jiarting words with me on leaving were: " I think Prohii)ition is a huge l)lunder."' That was his verdict. He said to me : " F liaxc looked for a drunken man since T came to J.\Mi:s L. Stkkn. ' 58 I m 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ?— I hiive s arc well I'lii'd llii'iii \ isiims lire lltTI' liiiuoi' (•(111 1(1 IK it illic iiirccjts s il pfuttv ' drink has dual cases vc use of ill that in tlie result luiil lie ad- teniis and lit lie Slime )c cured iir iniseit' with iiulitedly is pi lint. As (lecisiiin of r(>i|uire to iiaj^in;;' the ts ? — I can s and now It is safe 1 til c(i\ei' ions. used /—I ■(■five from lat tlierc is even still from the iv law?- 1 |iv system, artial pro- line is con- are law- I'ss of any asure. T of mine |c. I may cause the lile pai'ty lindaw has [is iiarting I'riiat was came to M.iiiili lia. anil ha\ c not seen one vd. II e went on a stcaiiilioat e\c\nsion on the lied liiver when t here were ."iiill |ieo|il(iiii hoard the lioat, ami he said: ''In |irohiliiloiy owa we Would ha\e L'.i oi .id lieo|i|e drunk, and at least a do/en liLdit s on hoard !1 JliT. And here what did he lind? -lleic all was jipmcc, ;i litis. Till CSC are the opllilous lie expressed to ye ipiiiion after livin;; in Iowa and iciiiainiii;.; here for thn if Wiiiniiieu'. This wa^ his expre-sioii of ■ik>. iirinciiiallv in the cii v 11 I tilt, h to th i> i|llesllon ot pi'olillill loll, then, (|o Voll liillik It VMill III iiih i-aolc in the best interests of the coiiiiininit v to lia\c a pi'iiliiliitorv enact meiit, an .\it |irohil>itiii;; the luantifacturc, impiirtatiiin and sale ot alcoliolic lii|uors for lie\eraj;o purposes, passed liy the hominioii I'ailianicnt .' I think it would he a piece of iheuiost iiiiiiiil iLtated folly to have such an .\ct passed. While I lielic\c there arc sect ions of the 1 10111110011 ill which |irohihitioji could he carried out with |iriilit, I am ciioULtli "' 'i 'msi- iicss man to see t he folly of such a proposal, csjiccial I \ a measure w hidi would reach fnnii the .\tlaiitic to the I'acific. .'11 I'd. "^'oil think there miulil lie special couiiiiuiiil ies where, owiiii; to the local scntimeut and local action, such a law iiiii;ht he carried out .' I have seen such to lie the icohic I'encrallv wcri'o\(>r- ilii'li in Iowa in the town of (Jreunel, were the clci'Lty and the | ;lv in favour of proliihition and the total extinction of the tratllc. I'rohiliiti worked rin'lit eiiou ;li, hut lit ni I'lihiiiiui |)aveiiiiort, .^lal•sllalllow ii .mil I )es .Moinei althiiui;li the Local Lciiislatui'e had l(.',i,'ali/.ed proliihition ; thos(> en!,'aL;ed in the trade did not mind incurrinn- the risk of sale; in other woi'ils, as regards Ijirtje cities, the law was a dead letter. .'11171. I >id till' lic^islatiire pass a proliiliitory law .' Yes. and they have liiinj^ stroiii,'ly to il. While it wjisadead letter in the places I ha\c na meii. It was ca ml III ( Ircnnel ai d .\i lies and in other tilaccs where il was altinrctlier uuiicccssjirv am rried 1 , here the people diil not really re(|uire it. 11 I"--'. Arc tl ere not some jilaces where a |iidliioitorv or temperance law is not uccessarv usai,'e IS stroniicr than any law you can |iass. .'lIlT.'i. What is the cll'ecl on the pulilic conscience of having a law on tin' shitiitC' liook which is persistently, constantly and llai;raiitly violated ; istheell'ecl for i^'ood or fill' e\il '! f do not think it would el(\ate the people's idea of law and order. law ]irohiliit inu the or hcvcrai;!' iiuriios's, do \iiii I. Supposiuji; such a law wcn> to he passed in (_aiiail III inufacture. importation and sale of into.xicatin.u liipiors f iliiiik remuneration should le made to hrewers and distillers tor their pl.int 1 tl we lia\-e had a voi'v uood example in the hill T)assed l>v the Hritish I'arli.i imeni latelv. m which the men who are en,i,'aifed in the trade were to he iiidcmnilicd. A'V U>r. Dr. MrLod. A ( •!. As a mai duct I haviii!,' to do with the husiiicss nlfairs of thecountrv. and cou- diictini' a trade ioiirnal, have you noticed whether the drink trallic. as such, iniures liusi- iiess, interferes with industry, atl'ccis a.ifricultural inten^sts, home life and the family interests of the eounti'V i \ will take the last lirst. Heitiirdinu' the faniilv interests, I as a liachelor until recentlv and \ can sav >iness alVairs, I do not k now w lictl \ cry little alioiit family aH'airs. Ucifardini; Icrale drinker or a teetotaller until ler a man is a iiio( 1 I ia\e known him for some time, h In t us cit\' to manv liusmess men the I lar-room is useless in hiisines: ITii. Was it at some time useful It was made use o f. 1 il did iiooil in the hoolii days, when cveryliody lost his head. Tl lie fi do not know whclhcr icre were a ureat manv I'ople freiMieiitly in tlu! liar rooms drinking', incliidini; some of our husiness men N ow the II, ■r, matters ha\e got down to husiness, and it is :ieldom proposed to go to :!1177 ucss ideas. To what do you attriliiite this clian M. 11 are getting down to our htisi- ;U17>s. Tl len vou UK lude the av oidiiiir (I f liars.' Y es, durum liusmess hours. < If course a man may he boarding in an hotel. I have discovered since 1 liecame a family man that on certain week days it is hettcr tu take lunch down town, and I takft a glass of beer or claret the .same as T do at home. 59 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) /. 1.0 IS'- i I.I 1.25 25 >^» 1^ llllll^ lis llll|2£ 1.4 1^ 1.6 V] v: ^> /^ .vv,v. <;y '/ Photographic Sciences Corporation ^•N iV EN k 'i? ^\ 6^ ^ <^ 23 WIST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. US80 (716)872-4503 ^ ^^ L^ II Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. iii ^ 31471). Still yiui tliink tliat wIkmi tlif Ixir \tiis used as an acljuiK't t(i l)ii>"''-'",i, it wjw not a 1,'imhI tliiii;^ t'nf tmsiiicss .' It was not. .'{lll^tJ. You consider tlic rlian^'i' tliat lias taken place is important .' — Tlie elianjje lias f{ra(lually eonie alwiut atnoni; liusines.s men. Thi^y ritsort to liar-i'ooms less. Very few of oiM' laisiness men are seen tliere. .'U |Sl. So the usin;; of liar-rooms is an injury to business? Wlion carried to ex t renin it is an irijnry to laisines.s, most de( idedly. .'Jl iX'2. Ila\e you ol>.ser\ed liow tiie liquor trade allects tlie other industries of tlie eotuitry ( I sluaiiilsay that tht: l)rewinjj; trade, for instance, is (|uite a valuaM'" industry to this city, so fiir as the em|iloyment of labour is concerned. .'U (s^.'i. l>o you think the jiatrons of theproduct of the lireweries aro more \alualile employees than those wlio do not take it ? I liaxe had men wiio took dtinlr, and also men who did not, and I could not tell oni^ from the other. ThiMuust faithful man I have, om; who would do almost anytliin;; for me, takes his drink ••very day. ;?IIS}. And 1 su|ipose you have others almost as faithful who would not take a drink umler any consideration .' ^'es : I do not know the ditlerence lietwcen them. ;tl4S."». |)o you lielieve the industries of the i-ountry other than lireweries and dis- tilleries are aHVx'ted injuriously oi' hcnelicially l»y the drink trade.' There are cases of imlividuals who run to extremes in the UHe of intoxicatinj>; drinks, whether connected with industrial husine.ss or anythinan that the trallic does not injuriously art'ect the farmers he- cause they a\did diink .' Ye.s, to a j;reat extt-nt. 3148!). Yfiu spoke of family life: havej.iu noticed whether family interests are all'ected injuriously or lieneticially by the drink trade/ I know .so little about family life that I can j^ive very little aid on this subject. If you ask me alMiut mercantile all'airs, I am posted, and I can tell you somethinji about them. I have been a family man only siiice March last. I had a home, but there was no one there except my father. I have nevi'r been a scx'ial man and have not jjoiu; into society. I have never bt^en a Club man or anythin;; of that .sort, and I have had a ]iiMir chance of judging of the social effects of the tratlic. 31 41)0. So you have not noticed the.se |ioints particularly f -My evidence would have very little \alue on these points. 31410. You have taken an interest in the mercantile affairs of the coinmuiuty? — Yes. .'$I4VI'_'. I think you have stated that you have observed men resctrt to whisky when they had become ruined commercially ?— -Yes. 3I4!*3. ||ii\e you noticed that the whisky habit has in any deforce contributt'd to their i-ottenness connnercially .' I"\iur or live out of every six run to whisky after tludr affairs become in a rotten state ; when I have einpnred into their affaiis, 1 have found that i>sc thci'c i^^ a iiiiti'k)Ml rise ami fall licri- anions iiini in laiNiri II. Vdil hiitii'cd wlii'tlit'l' a lar;;i' |ii'ii|ini't ion ut' tlli>s>' wlin lia\c i;i(|i<' In the wall wi'r'c liM'li II wtTO llK-apaci latcd III sdllli' ( |ci.'r''<' I'V 'I K- will liiskv lialiil <'s, nianv cnii I'l liiiiilit I race tlii-ii- ilowrfall tn li<|Ui)r and t(i lii|iiir only. .■'ill'.*". Was it a factor in their (lownfall f I c mid not tt-ll you ; '.l") pci- i-ciit of limbic who went iiiidcr the (list livti vears I was here, went iiinlt'r throuifli n-cklcss spcci!- lal loii^ had f\ Til t' y w< III hft'ii iiiadc. Id I d. ia\c ilolH' so if ihiTf had hrrn no whiskv hcii', or if no whisky :il I'.tS. Wen- the causes related to each other.'- I'rohahlv so, liiit whisky was the ■-iiialier. •'11 I '.•'.•. |)o you think ihe whisky trade <-ontiniied the cra/e of the hooiii days ? — No. I do not think so. .'i|'iat.Mie was used, and that « hisky and the like were ])raclica!ly ij,'nore(l .' 1 .saw t he Iiihmii in all its ifrandeiir. I went alioiit with a satirical laii;;.'li think in;; what fools were around nie. T (lid not put a dollar late, llioiiuli I drank pretty freely, vei'\ iiiiich more than I lia\e since. I III real es reiirat llial 1 never put put one dollar into speculation. .'ll">nl. \,,H have spoktui alioul the e\ ils of excessi\e u.se of li(|Uor : do you think il i^ well to cstaltlish a liusiness which provides facilities for, what you may call making,' maiiiiics of men ( — If a man is determined to hecoine a nuiniac, he will find the means. I never saw a liarri'l of li(iuor !,'o down a man's throat and make a maniac of him. My eN|iei'ience is in coiiiniei'cial atl'airs, and if a man is determined lo lia\e liipior he will Imn some means cit u'ettinn it. aix I if 1 le caiino I oht; nil lii|iior, he will olitain somctliin!.' 'ilCiO-. Is the fact thi.t a man is determiin-d to use liipior and will lind means fo dolll'' so, a reason that the Stitc .should jirovide tl le means : I did not sav that th Stale provides the iiieai IS. ;|.")(l.i. Or the fi icllltie: It is jiisl like this : it is a i|Uention as to which the liest means of deal in;; with this ijiicstion ; w hether il is not I letter to alliird facilities for a man to olttaiii li<|iior or not. In my opinion you cannot olitain any hetter means of dealing; with it. If that is the cpiestioii. I must .say I have never ;;iven it sutlicient study. .My lirain has U'en taken up with too many other tliiii!;s to study such a i|Ues I ion as that. .'i|o(l|. Noll iiave sjiokcn of teetotal lievi'iaye^ and t heir a(iulterat ion ^ C'otiee i.s ■)(J.'i. Vmi .sav ihcv are \crv seriously adulterated .' ^' .•11. ■!()(; e any othei-s adulterated '. — Ves. all the cordials and stiiU'of that oil. I noticed particularly in one of the r.liie Itooks to which I lefern d that there was.i ifieal amount of adulteration. In one IMue I'look which ileali with 'I'oronlo, I I hat not a sin: not ice< ;le specimen of cotVee was pure. The same Itlue Uook stated that the Mdiiheralion of some lorei;;n spirils was trilling and some spirits xvie not adulterated. ll.-iOT. You have spoken alioni nrohiliit I came liert II vears ai;o or a litl le om tlh lion III Iowa II II .1 I \\!i \m OW II well! liac ve you lieen lieri to I ow a for a few ntlis to ti\ up my atl'airs. I lived a few months down llieie. and I cam ii;aiii ;ui(l ;;ot started in the siimmei of i^Sl.'. I jjot ri;;hi down to liiisini ■k 1 1 ere II I was here the yea I- ])re\ loii- .'tj'iOS. Then voiir oliserv atioii of |ii'oliilii' ion in Iowa Won III I II it lie practically oliservation of the slatiitoiy |iroliilpiiioii liiit of pari iai pnihihiiiun ' I saw it when! was hacjx at that lime. ■'ll'iO'.i. The proliiliition enacimeiil. I lielieve, was not enacted until |K,H4r — I saw It when I went hack. I had lieeii traxcllint; Imekwaid .ind forward. I was down tit the lime they were canvassiiii,' for that Ad. ;M."i|l). |)ii you think a casual visit is sullicieiil to enal ipinion on such a i|uest\on le one to form a correct I did not sei'ii hit of i-haiue. I saw places in Iowa, when prohihitinn was in operation as they were l»efoi-e. •'U.')ll. You saw the law violated, as I suppose all laws are violated more or less ( I do not iMoiiti to say that any law i.s very tiiorou^hly olwervod in a community ; if it was so, there would not he a necessity for any law whatever. ' tlT Tirr ''3 itt Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .'UJJl^. Is it nut true tliat in some coniinunitics tlio law is In-tter (il)s<.'rved than in others ? — Yes. .■U')!."}. ])(M's it follow that alth<>ii<;li such a law may not lie well ohsorvod, it is necessarily a failiirt- and should he rt'iicali'd f- -Takini; the evil clleclsof li<|iior, and all the vile poisons that wei-e sold there foi- liijuor, all theevils that, pmhiliition lii-oui^hl with it, it nii^ht Ik! a i|uesti<'!i whether prohiliilion ever did any f;on14. You have state1">. That was, I U'lieve, liecause the rou;,'hs and toujjhs and had people wei-e arrayed on the other side .' On that occasion they were. .■U.">l<). hid it ever occur to you that the fact that the rou^'h peoj)le and the l)aa during the three weeks he had heen here? — Not three weeks. .■11518. I oidy came to this city on Saturday night and on Sunday 1 saw three drunken men. -I did not see them. •SloUt. I was wondering whether there was adillereiit state of things prevailing at the time ')f your friend's visit than there is now, esf)ecially in view of the fact that we have had the testimony of the .Mayor that during the last five weeks, especially on the Sahhaths, (he law has l)een hetter enfi»rc(Ml than for a long time previously. In \ lew of the fact of that l>etter enforcement, anl!0. You have statetl that in some sections ynu think a prohihitory law <'ould 1h' carried out. What sections woulil they lie /-The .sections would he those whei'e pro- hil>ition would not l>e necessary on account of the chai-acter of tho.se .sections. ■■M">"_'1. Then it couhl he cnf irced where it was not needed ? -Yes. I'\tr instance, I have tia\ died throu^di the Territoiies a gcKiil deal, and you c.iuld not (Miforce prohiliition in the Territories. .'{1')1.'2. Why .' — They ha\e Inicn trle(l with a law that is a farce. No doulit in a few years a portion of the Territories will return again to prohiliition, Kastern Assini- hoia for instance. .Allierta you will never ;tet to prohiliition. .■U."il!;<. Woulil that law he j,'o(kI or evd ! ^ I do not know : if it plt>ases the people it will lie all right : if not. it will he all wrong. .■{l"iL.'l. Do you think that in these days lienetit woulil result from a jirohiliilory law ?- I do not tiiink so. f helieve that the state of the oonnnunity shows thu"^ with- out interference of the law, it is as i;ond as it would lie undei' prohiliition, and o. course prohiliition is unnecessary in that event. .'{I')"-'"). Is that tiue of other laws.' I do not know ; I sup|iose it is. 1 have never investigated the matter in regard to other laws, hut I siippiis»> it is true of a good many 1 iws. .■U-"iL'*i. Is it true that where laws ai'e ohserved they .'ire not necesstiry, that the condition of the |ieo|i|e is so good th.it (iie laws are siiiierlluous ? Von siiy that a |iro- hiliiiory la\\ would he ohserxed in certain ]ilaccs liecause the condiiion of the people is excellent .' It would he simjily enforcing a law where it was unnecessary. .■{1")"_'7. Hut, of course, it would he oh.served in other places/ — You nmst not run away with the idea that T say a ))rohiliitory law or any other law is a failure liecause it is not strictly ohserved. You are trying to push me on that platform, hut I will not go there. .■U")'.'8. You said, in ai\swer to Judge McDonald, that the eH'ect of a law that was per.-istently and flagrantly violated must he very hud /— Y'es : 1 say it would not elevate the ]iey all tlie ncniilc or Wy a section ot' llu' |m'o]»U' wliicli do you mean .' I niran iti a community. In Miv opinion a law that only ((M'tain |pcoplc rcspcft is j)owcrlcss to reach the peoj)le. ;nr):il. Is it, then, a violation of the law i)y the people or liy a section of the people ( The influence exteniU to the people who hreak it, hecausethe community com- iijiic with and conspire to defeat the law. ."Uolil'. So the law woidd Ijr had for that leiison? No, I do not think the law would lie l)ad. :U").'{."{. l)o you think the law is an educator .' I sometimes think it is I i'ememl)er 1 was in the (Statt! of .\rkan.sas, where I -eniained ovei- ii week, and the nund)er of ilrinkini; places was so marx'ellously decreased when the prohihition law was enforced, thai I came to the conclusion that the law is an ei I neat or after all. .'UoiJI. If the liipior ti'atiu.' is such a had thin;; in it-^ etleets and thert IS a law a!,'.iinst it, and it is persistently and tla^rantly liroken, do you helieve that the law, l( ircther with all iitteni)>ts to enforce it, Im.s a had ell'ect on the people ? -No, if the I |ile are convinced that the licjuor trade is .vron;;. You must fii-st comince the people that the t rattle is a crime. I{irt."{.">. |)oes the law help to convince tiie jieople that the tratlic is a cri me Criminal law deals only with crime. You start with the assumption that the people are all convinced that the tratlic is an evil. Some are and some are not, I suppose. .■U;"i."W). Would the law strengthen sentiment in that direction.' ! (|iu'stioii if it would. The law can lie made ridiculous hy trying' to enforce sinnethint; against the wishes of the people. ;Ur);{7. When you make that statement, do you mean ayainst a section of the people that disapprove of the law, or do you mean the peojile as a whole/ Of cour.se it cannot he a law unless the pe(»ple say it should he enacted ,' I )o you mean to tell me lli.il the Hlue No.ses of Nova Scotia and the l'"orl v-Xiners on the C'oast are impressed In Canada we lia\( thollN saniiIi llu. Do V oil i.'l\e t vidcnce as I'icsideiit of the Hoard of I'rade of Wii iiiipei; : I nil uiviii;; my evidence as an individual. I have no rij^lit to dra;; in the ISoard of I have never asked an e.xpression of its opinion, and I am not preteiidiiii,' to Tl V'lvc the opinion of tl W "I" hoard of Tradt I am sjieakiii!; as James Steen III/ JikUji' McDimiild : •W-tW. In regard to the vote W innipi'' oi n I he plehiscil' you lire aware, nodouht, that Winnipi*y may ohtain prohiliitioii witliin a few montiis hy availin;; itself of the Scott Act. If the |)eople are in favour of that .Act. thev have the riudit to adopt il fur themselves and have ii retained for a period of three years, and t hei'efore t he iiialter rests with then W. i\e vol! h''ard of ,inv iiiovenieiil •111" commenced tor the purpose of carryinit the Scott Act in W'iiiiiipi N, •'iloll.'. Since the vote was taken No. I lavt' lieeii aliseiit trolil Ihecilv since t he viitc was taken •'il."il."<. In regard to the i|uestion as to whet her it is rit.dit for the Stale to make pii'visiou for supplying; liipior to the people in order to make some of I ;>ein maniacs : you are, of ciair.se, aware that a man need not make himself a maniac from this cause unless he chooses to do so / Yes, and it is not necessary for tli«^ State to supply the means at all. •U.")14. Have you ever considered this point, whether if a hundred people desire to pui'cliii.se a certain article, and one man abuses that article, whether the rest of the 63 i ( Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. liunclred >liiiii|i| Id; proliiltited from huyiii^ it .' I slmuld tliink it would lie a \rv\ •rw-.a li!irdslii|i to a ^i-fiit mujority. That is the uliicction I li!i\<- to |irii|iiliitj(iii. It iciiiiiids iiif lit' llic days ot' it'li;,'ious iiitolfi-aiii'i-, wlu^n a oTtaiii iiuiiiImt of |it'u|)lc wci-c so per- fectly yood tlicy desired to eom|iel others to he ;,'oo nowadays. At the present time a ;>reat many •{•nkI and t'hristiiin peoph- praeiise tlie same kind of intoleranee. On tlie other liand. it must Im* i-ememhered that if (piestions are to lie decided liy popular vote, it is almost impossiltle not to meet with some who are not intolerant. ;Ur)4.'i, In Npeakin;^ of Iowa, you descrilied to the C'ommissioneis the state of atl'airs dead letter, and also tli e condition in |)uliU(|ue and in other places where the law is a of athiirs in (irinnell, where the law is ohserved ; and you were asked whether there was anv ditl'erence in communities where tlie law was ohserved, and in the pt liipior in the hou.se wh«'n I lived there. I always sent to Chicago for it, and of (-our.se I never violatoil the law in liringinij it in. I f^ot my su])ply of li<|uoraiid kept it in the louse, and I ilid not treiiuent the saloons ;{|r)."ii!. Take the man who used liipior and had not the means to .send to C'liica<»o for a supply, what would he do .' lie would have to j{o without. :n ").■),■{. So the law really favours the man with means at the expense of the man pt'i without means /--At that time the town would not have heen run uiilc ss Slime ii: )roui,dit liipior in. hecau i.se the .ludi;i' and the I )istrict Attornc'v we f us laliit of coiiiint; to my plai d without them it would he impossilile to run tli(> town. Th \\ was the state of atlairs in (iruiidy Centre, (Irundy County, Iowa. The .ludi,'e and the District Attorney were in the hahit of coniin>; to my pliiee to get drinks of whisky. % AVr. /),: M,l.,„>l : ."U-")')!. What year were you in Arkansas? Tn lH77 and 1^!")^. ;{ I .■)").'». What was the law in force then .' It was a partial prohihitory law. SlooG. Was there plenty of li<|uor obtainable { No, it was hanler to get then, than under the suhse<|uent enactim-nt. In those days you could get liquor without a doctors prescription. No liquor was allowed to be sold at that time, except it was of a certain strength. •Iames L. Stkkn. 64 H 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 view It III lldS. .lOHN v. I'>.\IN, (if Wimii|M% .)iulj,'c of the Court nt' l^ueeii s IJemli of the |'iu\ iiicc of Maiiitolia, on heing duly sworn, (icpost'd lus follows: — Jii/ Judijf M<'I)oiutld : :?1.">"»7. How \i.m\t, hiivc you rrsidcd in this city .' .Vliout twenty years. .il'i.'iS. How lonj{ have you lieeii upon the Kencli f Nearly live years. .'tl.').")!). Did you practice here before that time,' Yes. ;U.")()0. |)id you come here from Ontario? \'es. lU.'ifil. I suppose the part of ( Mitario in which vou resided was under a license law ; Yes. ;U"i»)'_'. Have you ever lived in a city where the iScott .\ct was in force/ -I have never had any experience witli the Scott Act. ;U."i().'5. When vou came here \ suppose thei-e was a license law in force in this city { Yes. .'{l-")t)t. And, with amendments, that law has since continued in force.' -Yes. .'H. ")(!."). \Ve have lieen told that there were two ciainties in the province in vvhicli I lie Scott Act was voted on, the Counties of Ijisgar and Marijuette, but that the Act wa.s never carried out and nothiii;; further was done. Have you any know!ed;je in re;,'ard 111 the matter?- I have no knowledge of it. .'U.")()ti. Have you noticed since you came to the province any change in the social ciistuiiis of the peojile in regard to the drinking of into.xicating litjuors as a beverage, whether it has increased or decrea.sed ,' My own experience has been that there hay: been a marked change ftir the better in the drinking habits f>f the people. ;n."iit)7. To what do you attribute that change ? 1 think it is in a gr<'at degree due to an improvement in the moral sentiment of tlie people in regard to the abuse of intox- icating li(|Uors. .'Urit'iH. I sup]io.se the intluence of religion and of teiii|(erance societies has had an cU'ect .'— S(jciety is in a very different stage here now to what it was in the early days of the province, ."il-'if)!>, ])o you kiKnv whether anything is done in the public schools here in the way iif temperance education I 1 do not know. ■'11570. Have you Iwen brought in contact with the working of tiie license law ,' - Nil, not directly. •'il-")7l. .\s a citizen, have \ou noticed whether it is well ob.S(;rveiiMi(l that it was (|uite ea.sy to get li(|uor on Sunday. •■U"i7l'. Hy persons other than thost^ to vvlioiii the law permitted it I -Yes, • il-"»7;{. Do you know anything about selling to minors ! I cannot speak of that. I never heard there was such sale to an extent that it would be a public scandal. .■)1.")71. We understand that the law now in this province, as in some other pro \ luces, |i-i'mits the sale of intoxicating liiiiiors in the same place in which ttroceries are sold. I )o you considei' that a beni'licial law '. Yes, on general principles I cunsider it sucii. 'Miu't. Have you ever formed an opinion as to the extent of the evil caused iiv liiitel and restaurant bars respectively, as to which cau.ses the greater evil .' Would there lie any diUerem-e as between the hotel bars or restaurant bars, and if one had to bt- ,ib(p|islied which, in your opinion, should be abolished .' I should say that if one had to be wiped out, the saloon liar should go, for there seems to be less excu.si' for it than fur the hotel bar. ■'U.")7(). Have you coiisidtu'ed the subject of high license? — Not specially, but I mav ^ay that I am decitledly in favour of high license, if there is to be a license at all. I also iielieve in the limitation of the number of lii'enses and in the strict regulation of the places licensed. .■tiri77. What about the inspection of li(|Uors : has your attention been called to that (|uestion / 1 i-efer to the prevention of adulteration. Yes, I think that should be I'lirt of a system of high license. •■U">7H. Have you noticed whether the trattic, in this community, has affected the business relations of the people injuriously ? — No ; T cannot say J have ever noticed th G5 21 5** T^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. I i '-■ it lilts nil i II j II I'll Ills I'tl'i-i't. I lii'lit'vr ti'iiin my i)\n ii i'\|M'rifii<'i' t Imt t lie u Imli- uf tlic I'ru- viiicr lit' .Maiiitiilia will riiiii|iai'i- very tavminilily as rc;;ariis sulnicty with aiiv oiIht |iart of till- I toiiiiiiiiiii, or any oilier I'liiiiiiiiiiiity I know of in Aiiifiit'a. .■U">7!t. NN'oiilil that ri-iiiai'k a|>|ily to t|it> |irovinci> it.s a whole,' ^■e^. and it woiilii N|ieeially 'll'l'ly to the lllial tli'^llirts, iimie mi than to the I'ilies. .■(|."i^". The hi'»i witness iik'iiI ioiieil that many faiiiiei's roiiie in, anil altlioii;r|i they <'oine from pjaies w he/e lii|iior w.is not snlil in some iiisianees, they were perfeetly tein- |iei'ate w hen in I he eit \ . llaM' you noliied anion;; the farming' class eoinin;; to town that solirii'tt to which refereiiee Iiiin Im'imi made ^ I have noticed it is very fare that Voii see ,'i fanner iin< lerth e inllneiiee of iiijiior .'Uo'^i. hoyiMikiiow whelher illicit seliiiii.' |ire\aiis to any extent in t liis lit v or )iro\ince.' I ha\i' no o|i|)ortunity of know inij;. lait I ha\e reason to lielie\ e that it does. •'H ■">'"^'J. Ila\e you considi'i-eil the <|uestioti of the treatment of the |ier.sisteiit drunk- ard .' ^'oll lia\e noticed no doiilit that many men keep ^oin<; from saloon to Police Court and then to jail and hack airain. I >o yon think that such peojile should lie shut np for n time and |iro>ierly treated ' I have often considered that sooner or later that is a pro- lilein which soi'iety would have to deal with. My own impression is, that a man who proves himself to he an haliitiial drunkard and a nuisance to society, should, for his own protection, he shut up. It seems tritlinu with the matter to send such a man to jail for a few weeks. ;il"iS;{. T!n' usual term is !l dii the Kasterii I'roxim I do not know, for tl lese cases do not comt lief. ."il'iSJ. Ha\e you considered the i|uestioii of the encoura^einent of the use of li;ilit wines and ales with the \ iew of doin;; away with the use of the heavier distilU'd lii|Uors .' I have lived for some years, indeed I ha\e spent a ;;ood portion of time in Kranee, Italy and (iermany. I was very much struck with the sohriety of the people, and with the contrast lictween most of the people (here and the people of .\merica. ft was \ ery 'Id seldom indeei <|umitities I that >f li^fht yi III wines aiK would see ;i man under the iiilti ence ot lli|Uor, ail d vet enormous I lieers are constant Iv drank, the men with their familie: seeminy to en joy themselves rationally and intellii.'ent ly w ithoiit any cif the demorali/.in;; and de^r.-idini,' ell'ecis yon see in ;;atherini;s of the same kind on this side of the ocean. ;( I "iNo. \N'e have heen told that lii;lit wines are served as part of the ordinary meals? Wine icdly takes the place of water: it is .served at meals and is drank l>y everylHitly. in fai-t it takes the place alisolutely of water. ."liriSti. Have you considered at all the i|iiestioii of ]irohiliil ion ? I cannot say that I luiye. |)urin^ tl iM(. Have you ever heen III a country where prohiliit ion was in torct hiliiti le siiliimer I h lave heen in M. :n."iSH. What part? Near Port lan.l. .'?l"iHi>. Have voii heen al '.'i>. We have heard a i,'iHid de.il ahout the operation of the Maine Ijiw in that State. What was your expeiience ' In tlieholcl I was al, I saw liipior was ohtainalile tptite easily. ."il")''!. Have VOII considered vvheiher il would lie practirahle to carry out a L;enei-al prohiliitory l.-iw, if such a law was pa.ssed in this country f I think it would he piai-ti- law I if the most of the people were in favour of the law, not merely in favour of tli leiiii' li.'issei • I hut incerelv III earnest in vv ishini' it to he eiitorcei '.'L'. Then vou think you must yet the sense of tin iiniininit v in it s fav our in rder to make the law a success ! Yes. :> I •">'.•■■!. The i|uestion has heen put ill this way: The .Maritime Provinces mij;lit lie very stronv'ly in favour nf such a law. while other port ions of the l^oniinion mi;;lit he opposed toil. Hoyoii think lh;it Parliamt lit should he irovcriied liy the senlimenl of a particular locality? I think II should he j.'ui(led liy the general opinion of the <-ouiitry. .">l-">i)l. Have you considered the <|uestioii of granting com])etisatioii to lirewers and distillers in the event of the eiiaotiii(;nt of a geiioiai pruliihition law ,' Not at all. Hon. John F. Hain. 66 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No 21.) A. 1894 ;; I ."I'.Cf. Wliiii is (lie ciVci-i uii I ic iiKii'iil Ni'iiM' (if till' I'liiiiniiiiiit V lit' |il'i<'iiiu II law i>ii till' statiitc-liiMik lli.'il is llui.'r.'iiit ly .iinl |irt'sisti'iitl\ \ inhitrtl ami imi I'lifnrri'il .' Il ilo panels a i,'iiii(l ilral uii tin- iialuii' uf' llir law. 'I'lii'i'i- arc siiiiii' laws, tin' iiiin-nliscrvaiirc lit «liirli vMMilil liiiM' nil I'lli'ci wliat<'\ I'l' nil till- I'lniiiiiunil V. Take, Iiuwi'n i-i', siirli a law a^ t III' |ii'ii law: it' tlii' law was imt I'lituni'il, I lirlii'M' il wiuilil lii' tlinrutijjiily ili'iiiiiiali/iiii,' to till- t'oiiiiniiiiil \ . il'i'.Mi, TIli'lM' an-, lit' riiillsr, Li th tws III rcijar.l to iiiiiiiii'i|ial ri'jiiilal mil. Ihi- ulisn-v aiin it wliiili has nil i-lln't nni- way nr tin- uiIht mi tlii' fniiiiiiunil v. siicli a law tiir rxaiiipli .!■- liMMii;.' viiiir Jiiiisi' lint It'll nil till' stri'i't I's. Ml ri ■•;aril t- I liialtrl's lit nil sjii'i'ial 111' i'i'>t III' ciiiii'i'in anil in iryanl to wliicli nn spi-cial |irini-i|ilr or i;iral piiltlir inti'i'i'st> II ,ll'' IIIVII lv.'.l. I .'il ."I'.t'. llaM' yiiu any sii^iycstiuiis tu nlliT tn tlir ('iiniiiiissinn t'niiii ymii' cxprficn i.'c'111'ially III' as a I'iti/i'ii, nr any anii'iiiliiiriits tn ilii' pii'vcut li'^rislal inn tn nlli'i' ,' Nn. liiiM' always t'i'll that llici-c arr a iiii'at many iiinic plai-i's liri'iisril t'nr llir salt- nt' lii|iinr I liMii tlii'ii' is any nt'fi'ssity for. and my cxpi'iifnii' has lici-n tliat what ynii may call ill" Inwi'i' I'lass lit' salniins ai'c the jilacfs that (In tin- must harm in the cnnmumity. 'I'licy Il i\i' iinthiiiLr tn liisc ciihcr a.s i'c;;arils I'liaractt'i- ni- rcpiitatinii, anil nt" cnui'sc thcff is less nliji'ir in rai'i-yin;.' (lilt tin- law. My fxpi-rii'in'i' as a ju(l;;i' is, that tlirsc plai-rs arc the places nt' all ntlii'i's wlii'ic lii|iini' i.s sniil that do most liarm. i"iits. Ilii villi 'ia\c tn dn with crimes lit' the hiu'licf sort wc have tn try niri'.HI. Have V oil oliservcil wlictiier any |iropnrtinii nt' the ci'iiiiiiial cases that c ime lictni't' vmi a re atlrihutalile tn the drink lialtii and the drink trade J -Kver since I have 'CM nil the Iti'iicii I lia\e lieeii struck with the tact that so few *\i the cases that come •tnrc iiic are aUrihutaliie directly or imiirei'tly to the iiseiif lii|Uor. I had always been •iistniiicd to hear and IicHi'M' that drink w,is responsild" for a Ncry lar^e prnpnrtinn of I'liiiic. lint that ccrtainlv has not liecn iiiv experience nn the ISencli in .Manitnli, ar a.s the i'\ H'iOO. Uespoiisihlc lint even indirectly.' in the larue inajorily if cases so f ideiicc shows, tile crime is not attrihutalile to drink, diicctlv or indirectly. I cat iiiilv speak of what appears in the e\idciice liefore me. .'iltiOI. Have you iii.iny cases of scrintis crime in .Manitolia rciiiarkaiplv fid' from serimis crime. W e liaxe lii'cn .■(hiil'J. |)n villi see anv 'nnnection lietweeii that small record of crime in .Manitol la and the soliriety of the people, which ynii say, is very marked .' I think that, lintli the siiliriety and the ahseiice of ci'ime arc attriliiitahlc to the .same cause, to the i;eneral hi;;li iliar.ictcr of the people of tlic I'roxini'e. They appear to lie related, as cause and etl'ect, .iml llicy arc Imt h i'\ idcnt .'ihin.'i. 'I'lic i|iicsiinn I desire tn ask is, in ell'ect, this : Whether the sniiriety is (he i,iii-c of the diminished serious crime in the I'rovince? i think it is very likely that if I licrc ui re more (h'unkai'ds in the I'mvincc tlicrc umild I H' iiiori' crime ihiOl You have expressed ymir-clf as fa\n iralilc tn a still hiirlicr license system, nil liicalcr restrictions and a diminill inn in the iiuinher nt places lice d? Y( iltil)"). W'litild ynii prefer a proliiliit ion law to even a liii.'li license system, if it iiiiilil lie well entnrcei W I • hidijes have to administer llie law a^ ilnv liiid il. wiiiild prefer mil in expi'ess my own indiviiliial opinini IIC.OC). Tl len villi wnllii 1 rati ler lint cxpre an npininli nil that pnint .' \ .'l|ii'i7. W'niild you express all npininli as to w heilier if wc had a prnhiliitinn law, "I'll ciifniced, then; Wniild lie lieiiclicial results nlitaincd '. 'riiere wiiiild lie lienelils in ^iiMic w.iys, and ill niliers 1 think there wmild lie the re\crse. ."■liiOS. What wnuld lie the injurious ert'eets ,'--My own impressinn is that it would 111' |M'ifi'ctlv impossihle to strictly enforce a proliihition law. ■ "illill'.l. I was assumini' that the law was well enforced: does that seem tn lie an niipnssilile case in your nun i; V till). What would lie the dillicultiiv lie prnhihitivi' provisions of the license law. Tlr same as are in the way ut' enforcinj, ;{Hill. Still they are enforced more or le.ss?— Yes. 21—5^* 67 ;• I'J Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. SHilL'. The Mayor liiis told tlic (-'oininissiori that t'or flic lii^i two \v*'i>kH tin- law hiis Ix'cn t'liirly wt'll cnt'orci'd at all events very iiiiieli lietter ent'orceo you tiiid the enforeeiuent of the law ;renci'ally depends on pid>lic senti iiient asserting; itself and insistin<; on its enforcement l»y the otiicials who have the nuitter in char<;e .' -What kind of laws do you mean do you mean ciimiiuil law .' .'UllH. Laws a;,'ainst misdeinean(uirs, and oH'ences of various kinds/ Yes. It depends inunediately on the attention j^iveii to it l>y otiicials appointed to enforce it. Hut with resj)ect to law a^iinst crime: If there were any violation on the part of the connnuuity and the proper ofKcials were not enforcin;; the law they would 1m' com|K'lled to do .so. Public sentiment would assert it.self, and insist on the carryinj^ out of the law. .■Ufil"). Is there not la.xity in the enforcement of some laws for a |>eriod, and floes not the public conscience awaken aiul see that the laws are better en£orce. You have spoken about the classes of licensed places, and I think yon stated that tlif> lower cliiss did the most harm, Ix'cause they were kept by irresjionsible people. Ha\e you over <;iven any thouj^ht to this jtoint : Take tln> hotel bar or the so called respectable saloon aiul take a saliMin 7 .\ !t kept by a nobt have some stimulant, and they resort to the stronger alcoholic drinks. Do you think thm Hon. John F. Hain. 68 57 Victoria. SeHHioiiiil Fupei*M (No. 21.) A. 1894 lo nut wiiiii !•(• ai'f ntlli'l- red ln'ciiusi- I think voii irr('S|M>iisil»lf iir III" tilt' f«' llifll of thenr f yoiiKji men ontnu't it ill the niii^lant liitliit r si iiiiuluiils that llu'\ ;u'i- ('•iiii|i<-lli>>i srar tii' Iwn a ■-lalcliiiiit iia> Ihtii iii.uif I'l iIk- cllfcl llial lliiTi- lias livt-ii a liii>{f iiM-rcasi- in (In- Use tit" ilriilml, anti « lliiili a year nr -u I lii> I in niaii l'',iii|>i'iiir lias |ii'ii|iiisr<| sirici i<';;iilalliiiis uiili n's|MM't III il. Witulil it si-fiii III Villi llial llir iji'iifi'ai ii- that ilc iii.uiiii'il till- iisi- lit' siriiiiK lii|Uiii's ' I ran i-xiutss im i>|>iniiiti mi that |Hiiiit. .'l|tij"i. ilavf Mill any kniiwlnlyr lit' I lir Nm I li wist ' Y«'s. I liayi- in;iili' \ isitN r lii'i'i- nil iiiisjni'ss am i ml. Hiil'ii. IMil ymi iil'siTM- ilii- wmkinu ut' |ii'iiliiliitiiiii iIii'It .' 'I'u smnr i-xii-ni. ''Ui>27. I)i I thi>ii);lil il \yas mts iimu'Ii .1 lii'i'Wisf, .Illl'-'H. I>ii| \iiii yisil it ijuriiiis' last yi-ar f Nn. I liaM- ih-mt I ii I lirii' sjni'i- |>><."i. .'{HiL".i. I >iii ymi ^ivi* siiiiii' s| iiily III t lir iiiirsi imi whrihri llii' |ii'i'niil sNsiriii. as ii {>ii'\ aiii'vl at lliat iii'iiml, ii-ally ilrsi myi-il I lir I'lli-i'ls nf |ii'iiliiliil inn .' Tin- |ii'i'iiiil syslfin u;i- i'\ iili'iitly uhiiKcd. and undrr lln- ii|irraliiin nt' thai |i»'niiil ssstcm. Iii|um' .sfi-nifd In 111' nlilainalih' In a \ciy nrvn\ I'xii'iil. Il struck iiir thai I had nev ■•r si'fii lln- iisr nt' lilllnl's sn U tti'ijy di'iiim'.'di/iiii; as it was in ihfNnrth wi-sl al llial liiiii'. ."tlli'tll. llaM' ymi ln'i'li iIhTc silirc llir ailn|ilinri nt' llii- liri'lisi- syslfin .' Nn. ■lili'U. Sprakiii^' nt' llaK, did ymi imlii'i' snilii'iriitly In In' alilf In i'X|ir«'.ss an lilt I saw t'lir It n|>iiiiiiii, hiiw Italy t'nni|iarfd as I'l-uartls tlrunkt'iini'ss with Manilnlia f Nn. I was i Ijvjin; sn lnii;i ill Italy as in l-'raiiff, Iml sn t'ai' as I ran ii'iifiidn'r in ill niiki'iini-.ss ihfi'f than I lia\t' st'fn liuriii^ tiit' saiiif liiiit- in Manilnlh //-/ ./>itimi astnwhal iiiiy liavf aiisi'd thf rci't-nl i'liaii;.'r in France and (ifi'iiiany as rc^'aitls the Wst- nt' alcdhnl. Has ml wine ilrinkiii;; ;L;nnt' mi t'nr cciiliirics aiiimi;; ihc |i<>ii)ilt> nt' liutsc t'niintrifs .' Vcs. .1 1 1'l.').'!. Wine liriiikiiijL; and liccr driiikin<.' Iiaxt- Imm'ii. I iintlfi'stanil, pari nt' the I.' Il rii^tmiis nt the |ifn|i|i' ti'nin tunc iiniiiciiim'ia Tlii'V tiriiik wine and liit'r as we ilrink lea and water. Is pari I't llieir cM-ry < lav Ii .'ilti'U. 'riicret'mi', it' they really cmiie tn use alcnhnl, as has lieen indiratt'd. ymi iiiii-t liink tnsmiie Dthef cause than that nt' mere use .' Thai ncciirred In iii'-. It' the iis.i liMil that eU'ect, I tin lint .see why it slimdd impress itself just iinw . ."> hi-'t'"!. The phyllnxera, I suppnse, has lieeli nne cause anil III her causes have lieen '.'iM'ii til the Cmnmissimi .' Nn dmilil the dimiiiishiMl supply has leil In ihe manufiiciiire lit' iiad wines. 'ears a<;' alcnhol anil t the ptHijiic intoxicatiim. y, they must i>u think that llnN. Wild JAM D.WIKS .\l!l>.\(ill, lit Wiiiliipi'u,.liulj{ent the Kasleril .1 Utiicial histrict lit' Manitoba, mi heing duly swnrii. dcpnscil as t'nilnws: — Hi/ .liiiliif Mrliiimilil : .'tlti.'it). Ilnw Innji have viiu residetl in Wiiinipci; ? <)\ei' ten years, ^illi;!". How Inn;; have ymi iieen .1 III Iv'c nt' ymir .1 iidicial I list lici .' Iiet uccn t'i;;lit and nine years. .'!| in your tlay there was nn law tlealin^ with the liipior tpiestimi in ymir ilistrict other than the license law ; or had the Scntt Act Im'.-ii carrietl in Simcoe lict'ore you left? It was carrietl after I left, hut I have lieen there sevi-ral times during ilic years since, foi' a mniitli or two jit a lime. •'Mllll. Dill you .see anything; of the wnrkiiig of the Act in Simcoe while ynu wt-re Ili,.|'f .'— Ye.s. 69 Liquor Traffic — >r{initoba. ETaR! I. , il 2 ithil-. \\i>\\ tlill it Mlrt-i-fll .' It dill not MK'Ci'fll tit llil. ■'({•ijlt. hill it lint liavf till- i-lli-ct tliiit till- |HMi|ilt' iiiti-nili'd it tn iii'('iiin|ilisli .' It liail I lie cH'cil (it' I'l'iliiciiii; til" t'luiiitii's tor ;;i'ttiii^ iiiiuor (iiiiiiiij; ii rfitJiin f\n!*s nt' llir |iru|ili', llir liiNM'i' rliisst'H ami tlinsr ot wliiiiii till' Imli'l ki'i'](t^ls iiiiil salniiii ki'i'|M'is wrir atViiiil ; iiiit it inni'a.Hcil tlir ilrinkiiii,' lialiit uiiiniii; tin' l>i'tli-i' rliiss, fui' it iiiiliiri'd ihoiii III kri'p kf^'s iif lii|lliil'. It In! Ill iniH'i' liiiliii' riilisiilll)it inll. I did lint tt'V to ('(ilillllit any lil'carli lit' till' !a\\, lull I am |iri't'iM lly vm'II awali- lliat I rmilil liUM- tnwii or in any |>ai'l of llir cniinty wlirri' I was. 'Till' liri'wrrii's all around wi'ir in t'lill lila.sl during tlir tiiiii-. Tlii' Art was tinally voti'd diiwn at'irr lln'ci- yfars' i'X|iriii'nrr. .'tllill. Takin;{ your rx|ii'rii'nc«' in Maiiitolia, and in N\'inni|ii'L,' |iartirularly, do you tiiid till' |ii'ii|ili> ai'i> tt'iii|irrati' and siiImm' in tlii-ir lialiits? I tliiiik fairly so. .'tltil'i. ho yoii t'md siiici' you rami- lii'ir lliat tlii-rc lias I I'cii a ;,'ro\vtli of llir Inii jicranri- si'iiliiiiiMil and a cliaii;;!' in tin' social ruslinns of llii- |ii'(i|»li' ? I think tlial clian^ir lias lii-t'ii laryi'ly i;oiii;; on lii-ri'. 'i'lii' usi- of « ini's; and lii|iiiiis, foi- instain'i' at lalilr. is li'ss than fonni'rly, and I think tlicii' is |irolialily Irss drinkin^r ^jt'iii'i'ally. .'Ihilti. I sii|i|iiisi' yiiii lind ill < )!itario a ;;i'i'at clianj^i- in that I't'spfct fnnii your i-arlii'st rrcolli'rt ions ii|i to tin- tinii' you li'fl it ? -Yes. •'lllil". That thi'ii' is niiii'h Irss lii|iior usi-d at tlir social talilf'f -Yrs, tlii'i'i' is M'l'y little iisi'd. .'Utilf''. To what do you attriliuti' that <'haii;<<' ,' - To the j,'radiially incrcusin;; sciili ini'iit in favour of ti'miicrance. ."UCil'.*. Has that result lit'i-n iirmluci'd liy ri'li;;iiius and moral iiillufnci's? Yes. I find that a ;;ii'at many |n'o|)lc arc now alistaincrs. .■iHirid. ilaxc you License Commissioni'rs in Manitoha ? -Nn. 1 was a [..icense Commissioner diiriiij; the time the iKiminion Act, the Mc( irthy Act, was in force. .'IHl'il. Then your are an ex orticio ('uminissiiiiifr ? - Yes. .'{ICiaL'. Mow- did that Act work.' I found it an iin|irovement on any Act known liefore or since. .■Jhi-")."!. Are you aci|Maiiite(. liaxe you any cases under i' I lia\i' never had a (;ase. The provision is nut coniprelieiisi\e enoU),'h, it is xery lim. ed. :U(!r)."i. Have you had any appeals to you in Chambers from coinictions hv .histices .' — No. .'Uli'iC). Some license laws. I heliexe, allow an appeal to a County Judife ?--T do not reinemlier if such is tiie fact, I never had any case. .'UdriT. Have you, as a citizen, noticed whetherihe law as to theclosini,' of licensed liou.ses on Sunday is well oliserved .' My own impression is that the law has not hoen well oliserved. .'Udol^. You think that .'•aU^ f;oes on durin.i; Sunday to others than those whom the law .says shall he entitled to liipiorf- I freipiently see people coming from church i.;o in- to tlie.se places. .'Ulio'.t. Have you considered the ijuestion of hij^h licen.ses? — I should lie in favour of hif?li license. 31aviks AiiO.xoii. 70 57 Victoria. Sessionv^l Piii)ers (No. 21.) A. I«:i4 iii|ili.sli ! It I'la.Hs <)t" tlic ;<'r|M'rn wt-ir idiifi'd thciii ', I liii\i' t'oinii'il the opinion lliiit diiinki-niif^N is often an element, lint not the le.uliti;; one. Natufid (le|)riivily seeuis to me to Im- the leudin;; eau.-se, and (ji'unkenness follows that. orward as an exeiise i 1 es. It i.s |iut The man savs he was ;!ltttil. l>o Villi tinil that drunkenin'ss is put fi t'oiward eiiMtinually as an exeiise t'or the eommissjon of erinie. drunk. ."U'Wi."!. Have you reason to lielievc that that statement is .ilways true.' No. ■'I|titi)i. Ill re<{ar(l to the administrutioti of tli<; civil law, how do ymi lind it ' l> ill'' to do .so if tI'MO hahits would allow tliciii. I think, as a "ieneral riHc. it is due to {|ishonc-.ty and iiidisp ■ 'ion to pay. .■'iltiti'.t. I »o you think that is the I'cneral rule .' ^'es. .■>l'i7l). You have known, of course, cases in which inen. owin;; to their diinkiiii; haliits, could not olitaiii employment .' That must 1 the cruise, to a i- riain c.vtent. iiiuch illicit selliier ill thiscitv. lltiTI. Have ytiu reason to sup|Hise that tliei that is, s.de l»y persons without ii license .' I lliink iheri' i coiiiparutively litthv Ha\e you t'onsideivd the [mssihility of etu'ou< ' 'iiiu the use of lijii, inipi I 'itMin as well as their ii d 1> anti encoiirayini' in every way th tl Ills away w i th 11 le if 1 use ot liea\ v luiuors that woiilil lie iiiv ide.i of dcaliii with the i|uestion. I may say that the same fact struck ni'- :is app*>ars to lia\e struck .ludire Main. Huriiii; my residence of three or four mouths in France and Italy, I iic\er saw a drunken man, ami I never saw any t . authority which was w was, to a liir;;e extent. i;r iitfli'lii an* I aiiicly indo|K>ndent. That fact created in the minds -f the li(|Uor sellers the belief that the law wiis j^oinj; to be enforced, and it was enforced. They respected the law, because they knew they would be compelled to obey it. They respected it not only because they were willinji; to do .so, but Vwcuuse they were afraid to do otlierw ise. The impression oii 71 1' ^Hti i\^ Liquor Traffic — IVl^nitoba. my niiiul is, tlmt it' a pi'<>|M'r lifunse hiw were fiuictod, with, {)t'rliii]is, a |ifnnissi\f.' Art ill regard to ccrtaii: iinrlinMs of tlio law, sons to eiiubic tlie control to lie placed entirely under on<' aiitliority tlu local autliority. including insj)ection such a law, without interfering with revenue pui-poses, would niinimi/o the evil, anil reduce it to its very lowest limit, and it would have a less injurious effect on the community at large and on the morals of the commiiidty than total |)rohiliition. .'WdT". In that o|iiiiion you have given expression to your view as a .Judge of this province .' I have given my opinion fi'oni all I have seen. ;|l')79. Suppose such a law was enacted in Canada by the |)omijiion Parliament, do you believe it would be ii;,'ht that remuneration should be made to th(» distillers and brewei-s for their property that would l)e ruined by such an enactnuMit ?- -I certainly tliink that is a very serious (piestion. Those men have been allowed to produce li([U. and I think myself that there should be .some remuneration granted them for the loss of their jilant and their property, in the event of the enactment of a general j>ro- hibitory law. .■ry ditlicult for me to give an opinion in regard to a pro- hibitory law, because 1 know nothing about such a law. Of courst>, I am satisfied that the eH'ect on the minds of the |ieoi)le of having a law on the statute-book that is a de.ad letter and is not respected, is demoralizing, f understand, of cour.se, that holds in regard to any law, and especially a law of a sumptuary character. It is very diflictdt to bring the mind of the community in accordance with a law of that kind, even when the people .see the ill-efTects of their present cour.se ; and there is a feeling of this kind : such a man should be restrained, but I should not, and any restraining law is an interference with my lilierty. Of course, the oixlinary mind is aware of the j)rinciples of legislation under which every man must give away a certain jutrtion of his liberty for the j)r(jtec- tion of the rest ; l)ut a huge ])ortion of a couununity do not rea.son that way. With respect to the vote taken in this province lately, T myself gave personally very little attention to that vote, for this reason, that, I think, a large portion of those who voted for prohibition, if they could see their way clear to having a proper license law properly enforced and res|)(!cted, would be very easily convinced that that would be a better law than prohibition, and woidd probably say that it would be better than prohibition ; but, in the absence of a projierly enforced license law, they would go to the full extent of trying to root out an evil, which, if you press it down in one place, will come up in another, and in a diflerent form. % /{rr. Dr. Mrh'orl: .'U>M, it is iimrt' (It-inoriili/tiii^. iUiS.H. Is tluTc finvtliiiii,' wrmi!,' c-umifctcd witli ullicc (Iriiikiii tliaii Itiir rouiii driiik- 1 (1. It ki aiiviiiiiij; that can he niurc dfiimrali/'iiig than liar -nidiii driiikin;;, liiit wIh'ii a man m'ts ill a su|)|ily l!)cSl. I •(• vou I liii ik till people wild had liipior in their rooms, if the Scott .\ct had not been enforced, would have i-esoiled to bar-rooms / They might lia\e done so, liiit not to the same extent. .ilCiS."), It is often contended that a great deal »if the drinking is practically done till- !.'ood-fellowship. one man will ask his friend to have a drink and his friend will in turn do the hospitable, and lietore they are through tiiey wi liaxe had i< lot of dri'jks. [> -ali/ed rather than if the facilities afVorded by the bar-i for driiikini' are aflorded .' Xi roinns •■{l(iS7. You would not argue from the above that this would be the general result ? No. I simjily mean to say that when you try by legislation to suppress a certain evil, the ert'ect of suppress that evil III a certain direction iiiav result in its increase in other (lirections. •il()><8. That is the perversity cif human nature .'—Yes. •'iHiSD. You spoke about the breweries being in I'ull force under the Scott .\ct. |)id Mill regard that as a flefect of the Scott .\ct .' -It was only surprising to me that they existed at all, and so far as I could learn they manufactured just as much during the existence of the Scott Act as they did before or ha\e done since. .■<1G!M>. Did the Scott Act prohibit the breweries f^-No. ■'UftOl. Then it could not l)e charged against the Scott Act that they were allowed to carry on bu.siness ? No, but of course they had their products to sell. •'iltiill!. I)id they sell it in the locality or elsewhere .' They sold it largely ihiough- i(»u;,'lit iihoiit tliat cliiinjrc. Mas tlic eflcit of the licfiisc law (•i)iisi(lfi'al>ly licljx'd tlio.sc intlui'iici's to ai'c()iii|ilisli tins di'sirahlc cliaiii.'(' .' I liai'dly tliiiik so. and I can hardly uivc a rcasuii t'or not tliinkini; so. T may mention this as an incident. When I was a lad in li-cl.'ind sueh a thin^j; as men not takinj; a certain number of f,dass(Ns of jiot whisky at dinner was unknown; every man did it. Tt was part and parcel of the meal. I know from recent visits made to th-^ country since, and seeint,' the same class of people, this hahit has jiretty nearly was a u'reater aliandoiinient of the drink liahil .' I think any step in the direction of the ahaiidonnicnt of the drink haliit is an iniiiro\cuient. .'{1701. I>oyou favoui' the suppression of the trade as a means of contrihutinj; towards that ;;ood result which you ilesire to see accoiujilished, and wliii-h we all desire.' — I think a man who hfi.s the ^ood of the community at heart must desire any evil to he mininu/e;ether, miiiimi/.c it. That is my opinion, and ii thoroui;h license system would do more than total prohiliition. ciHisiderinj,' the evils tiiat woidd ari.se from any attemjit to totally prohil)it the trade. 3170J. You sjioke of the t'xils that would arise from the enactment of such a law, and anionj; them you mentioned smuu.i^liii;;? -Yes, and illicit distillation and illicit trartic. .■$l7n;$. Are those evils that would arise, under prohibition, or eviU thai now arise fi'om th(^ li(|Uor trathc .' -Of course, that is simjily a matter of opinion. .'U7Ut. ^'ou have knowled;;e of the evils that arise from the trade, I suppose? — The only information I can fi;ive on that point is simply tiiis ; I think it would be better to try a license system rather than al)solute prohibition. Of course, if the license system did not lia\'e a satisfactory result, then you mi<;ht apply a more crucial test. .■?17()-"'). The license system has been in force a t'ood many ycai's, 1 believe. Have you over known a license .system that has been o'oserved I -No ; I camiot say that I liave ever known any license system that has been fibserved, because I have never known a license system that tlie peojile wer(? satisfied with. .■il7(Jl>. Has the license system re^ulateil the traiK' .' -< (f coui'se it has law in that respect, but that a lar;L;e majority do not, I have no doubt. The reason they do not oi)ser\e it is. that one man will endea\our to observe the law for a time, but he will tind others takinj; a different direction and defyin;; the law, and when one man is allowed to defy the law, others will follow, especially when they lind it can be done with impuinty. Ml 70S. Will you tell the Conmiission, i)i'ietly, what is your idea of a license system that would meet the nei'ds of the country .' 1 do not think it is (piite fair toask me to answer that <|uestion hei'c. It is a ([uestion that one woulil have to consider very maturely to <;ive an opinion about it, not vin' vaf' but in writiuf,'. I myself hold the o|)inioii that a license system should i)e framed that would larijely jiroduce thi' elVect that the temperance ])eople are an.xious to produce, and \ery properly so. 1 believe that if the efforts of the tem|)erance orjiaidzations were directed, in the tii'st instance, to a license .system, to control the sale of li(|uoi', if their "uerifies were directed in that direc- tion altojfether, they would j)robably be able to pi'oduce a much better residt than they would do as total prohibitionists, l)ecause there is no doubt in my mind that the reason Hon. Wilmam Daviks AuDACiu. 7+ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ihv til not nl>servc(l is, tliiit it is iiiiulf lfii-;,'«'ly n political fM;,'iii('. tli.-it it lias Iniiif liceii ii Mioiiis of meting out certiiiri put ronajite in connoction with politic jiiiii.' ii>* that is the I'lisc, you cannot by any possihility eiH'd, thi-ouiih an o\ei'sis such that for the coiiiim; year the best class of men that could be obtained in the community were secured as the holders 171l. Were tliev strictiv observeil ! I cannot sav that. I went about as a detective to watch the parties. I may say that I was not only License Coiiimi^sionei'. but ! was also I'olice Commissioner, and 4'oiise(piently I had an oppdrt unity of leariiiiii: the inside workim; of the trade better than any one else could do. .'51711' i think you have stated that prohibition in some way ]proiiiotes driiikiii!.'. that men desire to f^et w hat is pro hibiled .'il7i:V Is it true that prohibited th liiL's are desirei (1 because they are jirohibitt I think so, to a certain extent. .'il7l 4. Is it consitlered a mistake to prohibit certain tliiii;,'s ' A uood deal depends on what the thin;j;s are that are i>roliibited. ( )f course that is a very wicle (|uestion to discuss. It inij:lit be said that our early |)ro<.'cnitor if he had not been told that he oiiiiht not to eat an apple woulil not have thoujiht of doinj; so. ■'il 7 b"). How lontt is it since yon were in the State of .Maine ,' Twenty-live years. .■U7lt'i. I suppose you do not know anythiiifi; with respei't to the operation of the Main Law since ? I have received vai-ious reports in rej;ard to the Prohibitory Law in .Ml It Tl lave no IV some per.sons that the law is better I h present ktuiwledue in reyard to its operat I have been told tl t th lere now tl ion. la'i it was foinierlv. I noticed ;it the time ot which I have sjioken. that there were very many means nt i,'ettiii liipior that were of an extraordinarv character. .'il717. l>o you think a prohibitory law, if well enf torcrd. wunlil ■nelit I d. except of course as rcifaids medicinal |purp I 1' idllct i ot beiieiit results fioiii drinkiiiL:' bevond t« 1 ■tl mporarily satisfyini not see what II nil now considerinj,' the ipiestioli in the aiislrait. .'51 .Speakinj ■Ii about •rrinlii man s appetite for drin nipensation to lireweis aiiil c|i>tiileis^ who you iiware are licensed from year to year on ly,d () yni|iriety of (•(iiniK'Usatin;' those who, hfiiif; patrons of lirtnvors iiiul dis- tillers, ha\i' been impoverished thereby, ^^'oul(l it not be fail' and just to take u|)lH)tli sides of the (|uestion ? — A brewer's estiblisiinient is a Hnaneial investment, but the drinkin;; of beer is a voluntary matter. .'$17l.'l. Siiould not eompensation apply in one case as well as in thi' other? -Have not brewers entered into this l)usiness and invested money in plant, prepared to take the lisk and conse(|Uence of their investment/ Should not, J repeat, the same i>rinciiile of bu.sine.ss a)»ply to one case as to the other? — ^l should think so. That would seem to me to be a matter to be arranjied on a rej^ular seale : I am not prepared to entei' into that (piestion. .■{172:.'. ! >o you re. Have "ou observed that any considerable propt)rtion of those broui^ht before you cliarj;ed with crimes are either themselves drunkards or as.sociated with di'unkards, or are caujfht about tirinkin;; places? I have no doubt that a total abstainer is less likely to become a criniinal, or to be brou<;ht licfore the ci'iminal courts in connection with any breach (jf the criminal law than a man addicted to drink. The ellect of drink on a man ntentally is to dull his perception of rifflit and wrong. Jii/ Jndgp McDonald : .'$1720. Would you apply that remark to every class of cases ? We read in the newspapers that a larj^e projMHtion of tho.^e parties in the Uniterced. Have you considered the subject from this jMjint of view : that a great many temj)erance people look upon a license law as a sin, and would say that they could not consistently adopt that course? We have had such witne.s.ses before this Conunission.- I cannot deal with a man like that. 31730. You would not consider that cpiestion from the point of view that licensing itself is wrong? You have not perhaps considered it from that point of view?-~Xo. .'51731. You have formed the opinion that you think people who desire to jiromote temperance should use a license law (tr other means of bi'inging about that result .' — 1 can understand a man of I'eligious tendencies holding the extreme view ; at the same time he would .iri-ive at the conclusion on proper groumls. Hut it is impossible to legislate for a class of people of that description. I should like to see the possibility of doing so, but I cannot. Hon. William Davies Ardacjii. 76 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 (JKOKCiKTrUNKH oHTON, M.D. us t'olltiv s :- ti W'imiipc;;, on Im-jmi; duly swnrii, di'imscd Jii/ Jiidi/e .UrOoiiiifif : '^\7'^-. Do you hold ;iiiy ottiriiil pusitioii '. Yes ; 1 am Mcdiral Iii.s|tet'tor of riidians t'of tilt* Provincti ot' Manitoba. .'UT^iii. Do you hold any oHii-ial position in connection with the Canadian Paritie" Haihvay .' Not at present ; I have done so. ;{I7.'U. Tliroii;;h what district do you travel in (ii.sehai'j^inti your duties f I ti'avel tlii'ou;,'li diH'erent parts of tiie province where the Indian r'eserves are in the district of l^ake Manitoba, liake \Vinnip(% l.iake Winiupe;;(M»sis. uj) the Saskatchewan, and as far as CunibcM'laiul House. .'UT.'^'). How Ion;; have you held your present position ;' Four years. ;317-. How lonji have you resideil in Manitoiia .' I have resided liere since ISS.'i. I visited the country two years before that time. .■{17.'$7. Is any part of the district, of which you have spoken, in the North-west Teri'it iries ? Yes; a portion is in the North-west Teri'itories. lM7."?S. In which of the divisions '. It will be in Saskatchewan. ■J17.'5!l. Do you t;o up to Prince Albei't .' Not so far as that, not further than C'undierland House. S1740. Will you kindly state your opinion, formed from your experience, of tlit^ working of the license law at present in force in this province ? I think, upon the whole, it works very f.iirly. .'51 7 U. Are thei'e any aniendiiients wiiicii su<{gest themselves to you from what you have seen of the o])eration of the Act '! Not ]iarticulfirly. I think the law, if thoroughly carried out, is a very good law, as a licen.se law. •'U742. So far as your ob.servation has gone, lias it been pretty well obsei'ved .' I think it has been on the wiiole, considering the great ditliculty theic is in carrying out such a law. .'$174.*?. ^^'ill you be good enough to state to the Connnission what has been yom- observiition of the working t)f the law in the North-west Territories/ In the North- west Territ<)ries the law that has been in force was, of course, a permit .system. That, 1 do not think worked well. 1 know as a fact, from ex])erience I have had in the North-west, especially flui'ing the time that I was Medical SuperinteiKJent of construc- tion, during the building of the Canadian Pacilic Uailway, that it was continuously infi'ingc. Can you, as a medical man, express an opinion as to what articles were used in the decoction and ailultei'ation of these lii|Uors .' I cantiot. I believe that su!]>huric acid was used in ..mie instances. '74l>. Is that the same as bluestone f ^'es. It is stated that sulphuric acid was Used in small <|uanlities. •'U747. Was tobacco also used! Yes: I have rea.son to U'lievc so. I have not made an examination of liipiors of that kind, but 1 heai- that such was the case. .■n74S. Have you been there since the license law went into force ? No. ■■U74!t. Have you studied the question of |)rohibition f To some extent. Formcrlv, as a niemlier of the House of Counnons, I gave, some attention to I he subject, when it was under discussion. •"51700. 1 understand tha.t you were for some years a member of the House of Counnons? Koi- fouiteen years. I paid attention to the (piestion at that timi'. ■■517''')1. l'^•om your knowlerlgeof this country as a resident here, and also from vour knowledge as one who has studied the i|uestion, do you think that a genei'al prohibitory law, prohibiting the importation, manufacture and sale of li(|uors as a beverage in tliis country, can be carried out? I do riot think it can l)e carried out ettectually. 77 :l 11 I ll ■ ^ I!" '■ *li- ill i f:!l Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. :!17." If lilW II Id well- t'liiictcd, would you t'iivour tlic ^'raiitiii;,' of I'oiiipcnsatioii til* to dislillfi's and l)rf'\vcr.s for tin- loss of tlieir nuit-liiiuM'v iiiid plant / 1 ilccidcdiy svould, as I think it would ix' Motliin<{ l)Ut just. .■{17"».'?. As a j>i-ofcssinnal man of \in\>i cxixTienrc, can you say wlictlifi- niuoli of tlic sickness voii liaxc had to treat has been caused hy indulgence in aU'oholic di'ink '. Not a larue amount. .\ conn>ai'ativel caliu!,' lii|Uors paratively few. ini|> V small amount is traceai)ie dii'ectK to the use of into.xi- •om- The cases that come undei- me of people who drink to e.Ncess are i .■{17")1. What in your judi;ment anrs ; is it hy unfettered sale, or liy a license law. or liy proliiliition ; .My idea has lieen and still is that a j;ood license law. permittini; the sale of liulit wines and heer in public places and entirely prohihitiiiLt in j>ul)lic bar-rooms and saloons the sale of spirituous li(|uors. would be more likely to be carried out, beeau.se popular opinion w(»uld support sui'h a law, and if would be more easily and cHeetually carried <»ut. J{i/ liple to bririLC it in they ivould do so in the face of the law. and in the face of the l;ir;,'e IhkIv of North-west Niounted Folic.". ;$17-">7. Have you reason to believe tliat there was coiisid(>rablc sunis;<;lin. To what do you attrii)Ute the steady increase in the number of permits ftianted and in the increa.se in quantity of licpior entering; the Territories under the permit system ! -Simply (jwini; to the fact that the ]>opulation lai'nely inci'eased, and it was very difHcult for the Lieutenant-dovernor to refuse permits to those who were considered to be ivspectable peojile and who would apply for permits. .■U7'iO. It is no doubt true that there w.is an increase of population, but it must be •inbered that the increase of population was not nearly as j;reat, comparatively, as the permitttMl (piantity of li'iuor. For instance in ISiS.'J, the t|uantity of nd ill iSitO. it I'em* the increas(> in 111 |Uor eiiterin;,' the Noitli-wesl Territories by ]iermit was (),7."7'l •'allons. That is about twentv-tive times as much in IS!)(l ISS.-i, against an increase in po]iulation amountiiii; to tuo and a half tunes the number at the earlier date. Is it not a fact that the permit system was indiscriminately used, instead of beiiii; Judiciously used / My opinion is, that up to ISS;?, the C. P. J{. was not com- pleted tlirou^ih but was simply beinu built, and of coui'se there was not anythinji liketl pop ilat ion ill the countrv, and these men w .'ho I laii previous Iv tloiirished on tiie sale of liijuor could not make it profitable on account of the sparseiiess of the |iopulation. and the fact W.IS that li(|Uor was smuiritled and ^'ot in by nefarious means. ] think that is the simple explanation of the position. 317<)l. Since 18t<8 or li^SO permits have been issued? You are talkini; entirely iibout p its I ob.serve .■H7t>2. Yes. entirely. Since 1S8'.) permits li.ive been ;,d\en to brin^' in 100f{alloiis or iiuu'e for sale, and in these years tlie ipiantity has run up to 1")0.()7U <,'alloiis. Do you think duiinj; the eai-lier years there was siitlicient sniu<,'i;liiif,' to make the diflerenct; l)etw(!en (),7.'«) and 1 r):t,000? — I think there was considerable difl'erence in population. .'517o you suppose there is any .sniufj^^ling now carried on? 1 do. (jrKOKUE Tt'HNEH OkTON. T§ ii»',\ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ;ll7lit. S(i tlif pci'niissiuii (if till' salt' (lut's mit fiitirfly (In iiway witli >mim;;liiii; .' It (liM's away with a \i'i-y lar;;(' pnrtioii ot' it, liut tiioM' inakiii!.,' |pi cai'i'v It (111 t(i sdiiK' extent. .■117<>-"). Ymi liiiM' stated tliat t;cii('ial iii'ciliiliitidii faiiiinl lie eaii-ied (int. Willy mi tell tlie {'iiiimiissiiiii w liv Sim ilv fi the fact that |iii|iulai' ii|iiniin]iera)iee. I think our ehiireh-iioin;; people very often, without sid( th would lie likely to prove (|uestioii at all in its practical lieariiiL; and as to w dieth ler such a measui-e sful. ited f( III' a iirohiliil ion measure .\t tl time, I do not think that the peojile to-inoriTiw would feel sutliciently interested in the sultjeet to assist in any way the otlieers of the law in carrying; out such a measure. I do it lieli( eve any lar;je numher o f then n would make it a special object to do .so. 1 oil II7*)^. That is a matter of opinion, lieeause we lia\(' not had the opportunity, liut do you think the ehunh-iioini; Jieople to whom you Ii.inc referred .md who have rolled up so lar;;e a vote are the people who do not ^tive consideration to the practical lirariiii; of matters like this, and do you lielieve that the consideration of the jiractical liearin of this (juestion rests exclusively with th who ar(> of the other way of thinkiii'': M' ipinion is that, and it is derived fniin some little experience. We had an extreme way it re L'an lin;r temperance in Ontario, 'vliere I lived. .Ml the counties surroundim tl little town wher( I (led for ■_'.") veai-s voted in favour of tin iptmn if tl le le Scott .\ct. That Act was carried liy majorities, \ery much in the same way as this vote has hecn carried in rei;ar(l to prohihition : hut in a few years the utter alisurdity of the Act ' people were almost to Ik in its etl'ects upon iiito,\icatioii hecaine plain to every onp unanimous in desiriuL' to do awav with the law. 'J'hat leads in lievc that th same course will he taken here liy those who ha\(' voted in faxdiir of jirohiliit ion with- out ifixint; any consideration whatever to tlie (|uestioii in its practical lieaiin;,'s. As soon as they have witnessed the attempt to carry out prohiliition, they will come to the ion as did the peojile in U'elliii^ftoii, ( irey and Uriice and other counties same conclus surroundiii! th( inty in which [ li\cd. .'UTti'.l. 'I'ake the .Maritime I'rox iiices, that adopted the Scott .\ct in a majoritv of the counties in N( i\ji Scotia, M'W ii'iinswic d 1' Kdv d h (I, n ited attempts have lieen madt^ to repeal the .\ct, hut in very few cases has it Iieen repealed. Ilow (Id you account for that condition of atliiirs ? — It may lie owiiii; to some local state if air ;ors. I am only speakiiii; from e:;! crieiice and from what I have seen. il770. Do vou think t he same stale of thiiiiis wduld olil; iyht It th state o f thinits olitain here ;is olitaiiis now in the .Mariliiii(> Pid\inc(!s ,'- I do not think so. Take, for instance, li ies. I'",\('rv fanner in the counirv ■II that the lir(!weries are of immense \aliie to I inn, as (illenn'' lull I a markcl foi' the en liarlev for which he h littl Th ip of iame miL'ht vud in respect to ryi tliicli is used in the di>tilliiii' of whisk\. Where t he material interests of so iarjije a liody of peopl(> are atlecled, .-ind w ill lie all'eite(l injuriously liy anv attempt at proli liition, 1 do not think the same condition wduld apply to New liruiiswick and Nova Scotiii, where the li)r< |ile do not deiiend on cereal- and are in a ( peof ■rent iiosition for that rea^ I li.'v lia\ (' no That special crops of cereals, is one reason why I think the experience of the Maritime l'ro\inces would not lie liorne out here. .'il77l. You think the lireweries are very \alualile to the fanners? 1 do. •'5177^'. J)o you think, if the lireweries (lid not purchase certain products from the fanners, tiiey would he al)le to Kiid markets for this produce at remunerative prices? - They experience very ^reat ditlicuHy in ti'idin ; a market for their coarse <.'r;iins now, and iiule(>d this i one of tiie pnihlems re(|uirin;{ solution, in order to ensure the pros- [lerity of tlii.s great agricultural country. 79 f i • ' i! ^^^^ 1 "\ HIP Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .■JI77'i. Vuii hav<' .H|iokeii in favour of a ii<{i(l license law? — Yes. .'{I77J. Would \i>u have eerlaiii [>i'oliiliitioiis as to hours t- C'ertainiy. 3I77">. Would you prohibit sale durin;; certain iioins on the Saljhath ? — Certainly. 31776. And also sale to minors, and Indians, and drunken men/ —Yes. 31777. And also sale on I'leetion day / Yes. 3I77H. .\nd certain other restrictions,' -Yes. 3177'.). N\ hy thesi' prohihitions ,' -I think these are prohibitions which can l»e, to a certain extent, carried out. 317*^0. Are they carried out ? They are, to a certain extent. 3I7H1. .\re the prohibitive provisions of the license law carried out? I think they are not carried out ; but 1 know, in fact I feel positive that when these prohibitive mt'asures and these obstacles ai-e not in the way of fi'ee sellin;; of liquor otlier than at proper times, there is a yreat deal more drunkenness both on Sunday and on election days. We wuuld have a i-epctition of the old (juarrels that formerly occurred on elec- tion days if th»' fret; selling of intoxicants were pernntted, (juarrels and disturbances which do nrtt oc<'ur mnv. ."$17^2. Why is the sale of litln'r days. If it is well to prohibit, the sale foi- the sake of priMlueinj; these beneficial results on election days, would it not be widl, in order to secure similar results, to prohibit it on other days? I think not. 1 do not think the ar^tunient could be canied to that point, simply for the reason that I do not think public opinion would back up any effort of that kind to carry the law into effect, and I do not think public opinion would back uji the o*hcers of the law in carry- iny out any such extreme measure as total prohibition. 317H4. ^ .iu do not re<;ard the expressi(»n of tin- |)ublic will fit the plebiscite as a true expression of publii' oj)inion?— J do not. 317i' n|ii)ii (iiivcniiiu'iit Indian rcstTvcs .' Yes. .'UT'.t.'J. Jliivc yi(U Im'cm successful iti kwpiii;,' li(( iur jiwiiy tVom tlic liMJiiiiis, aiitl has its absence pidducf-rl excellnnt ptleets! Certainly, in tlie outlyinf{ district.s. Hut while it is strictly \iv iliibited on the resei'ves, it is a well-known t'act tliat when Indians cnine to Winnipeg; or Selkirk they can t;et all the liijuor they want. There ari' always [leople, who are ready to make money l>y i'n<,'aj;inj; in this illicit triitlii-. ."UT'.M. Then the prohibitions concernin;,' Indians are violated .' ^'es. .HI 79'). Has it occurred to you that since such is the case, it would be very well to authorize sonit^ j)eople there tf) sell to Indians? No. .SI 7U(i -'J7. Why not ! 1 think the Indian racre diHers ^^reatly from the white race. The restrictions of civilization in many other ways besides thin which we are discussinj;, h.ive by decrees ele\ate(l the white ])opiilation to such a height, with the j,'reat a(l\an<'e in the sciences and hif^her cultivation in every way, as to enable them to induli;e in sjiirituous liiiuorsof dill'erent descriptions and .stimulants to a very larm' extent without recei\inj,' any injury, ane noticwl ? Yes. .'ilf^Ul. |)o vou think thev will evei' come to a condition when thev can be put on the same plane with respect to intoxicants as the white people occupy, by education /— That is ])art of. the general problem as to what shall be clone with the Indian race. We know they will not try to earn their own living, at all events the large pro])ortion of then), notwithstanding they see starvation before their eyes in the coming winter ; they will make no ell'ort whatever to [H'ovide for themsehcs. .■US02. Do you find the Indians themselves are disposed to obey the liipior prohi- bition in regard to them ? — I think many of them are. .'USOiV Then they see the benetit of it? — No doid>t tlii'v do, at all events a great many of them do.. ."UiSOt. Is it proper to infer that the greater intelligence of the white man makes him less disposed to obey the law ? That is rather a s])ecious argument. All 1 can say is this, that the greater intelligence of white ]ieo]ile enables them to use what isa great boon to humanity in one sense, and in another one of its greatest curse.s, in the larger majority of cases without injury to themseKes, either intellectually, ment.ally or j)hysically. :}I)^0"). |)o you believe that the great majority of those who use intoxicants derive benefit from them ? — I think the greater majority of those who use thi'm in moderation .'ilSOC). Do the great majority of those who use them at all use them in model a- t ion ;nsu7. Yet lile to vou admit it is the Lrreatest curse vv h d t. d th It i.s (lesira restrict it, bv lici'iisiii lie miiumizec ill some other vvjiv. that these evil elVects ;$I80S. You think licensing will do that t Yes. .HlSO'.t. .\nd vou would have a license law wit i-iUiil ihibit Ions and .severe Ities for the violation .f tl lose pro iliibit ions .'11(^1(1. hiiring your observation of the license law. have you observed that it regulates, to any e.xtent, the ti'ade? - I am very sure it does. 3IHI1. Does it regulate the trade in Winnipeg? — T think so: it has doni! very great Ixiiietit here. You do not find any disturbances in any of the hotels (jii .Suntlay or during prohibited hours, such as occurri'd formerly when tlu^ restrictions were not so irreat. ."ilSlL'. Does th(! license law le till e amou lit of drinking? — I think it doe.s to SOI esse: ne extent, and it certainly les.sens many other evils, such as <|uarrelling and unseemly conduct. 21 —6** u mi ifi- Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .UHi:?. If l)V tlii.s (Iffiicf of proliiliitiiiii whiili is pidviditl uiidtM- ii license law, thw evils can he niiriiiiii/.etl, would it bi; well to endeaNoiir. if possible, to extend the pro- hibition and lechu'o tlie evils to nil .' I do not think so. The otdy jxohihition beyond what we ha\e cesorted to. I think, has been tried and found unsuecessful, sueh lestric- tions as ate fuinished by the Scott Act, wliich is a local Act. When that law wa.s bi'on^'ht into foi'ce, the manufacture and sale we supposed to be forbidden within the district, and yet the li(|Uor business was continued eNcti to a larjjer extent than it had been previous to the pa.ssa|,'e of that law. 'I'hat is my experience. Wherever an attempt is made to enforce a law of that kind, it must fail. 'I'he people do not desire to liave their liberties curtailed to too jfreat an extent. They are willin;; at the same time to sulTcr curt.iilmer.t of their libei'ties where thtn' consider it is for the public ;,'o(id ; but J do not t'link they are willin;; to submit to any curtailment in order to carry out a mere sentiment. .'{1S14. You do not believe that if a ffeiiei'al prohibitctry enactment were pass<'(l, it, could be enforced ! |)o you belicsve that such a law would have j^oodellects ! Stt ; evil etVects. .'MiHl."). Do you think total akstinence is compatible with the best health /-I do m>t think it is compatible with the best health and the greatest amount of «;ner;iy, both intellectually and physically. I think that the energy of a people who are total pro- hil)itionists is nothing like the ecjual of that possessed by a people who take liciuor in moderation, because I think there are times when a stinmlant is the greatest l)enetit in the worltl, especially Jifter great fatigue. J could give you many in.stances of that kind. 31816. You mean taken m(Klerately ? — Moderately, if you like. .')1S17. Is there any tendency in that case to need the stimulant repeatedly and in increasing (luantities? - With some, it is so. .•il.HbS. Only with some.' Yes. 31Hl',(. Is habitual moderate drinking harmful ', — It is just the same as it is with opium. A habit of that kind increases, if you iiululge it. 31H2I). All things being e(jual, has an abstainer Jiny better chance of life than an habitual drinker.' — I tlo not think so; I do not think statistics will bear out aiiv such assertion. 31Si!l. Has the total abstainer a better chance of recovery in case of .sickness oi- accident/ — I do not think he has a better chance than the moderate drinker. There are some di.seases. infectious disease.s, in which the hanl drinker does not combat the disease well. But take fevers and many other diseases it is generally the opinion of medical men thai those who take stimulants in moderation will withst.'ind the diseases better. .■$182l'. Why do life insurance companies refuse risks on habitual ilrinkers, T am not .speaking of excessive drinkers?- I am not aware that that is the case. 1 have been examiner for life insurance companies for over thirty years in my practice, and I do not remember a ca.se refused where a man drank moderately and took stimulants in moderji- tion. Probably you include those who take li(]Uor in excess among habitual drinkers. 318l'.'!. I am referring to men drinking hiibitually, it may be a glass of wine at each meal or a glass (»f beer? 1 do not think any iiisurajice examiner, and 1 have been examiner for a number of comjjaides, would do sf>. .■51824. Are the children of the moilerate drinker more likely to Ijecome intemjierate than the children of the total al)staincr .' 1 do not think so. 1 have even seen sons of temperance men become gi-cat drunkards, and sons of drinking men become abstainers. 3182"). I spoke of the rule ? There is no rule. 31826. Have you noticiHl what are likely to be the effects on the oflspiingof intem- perance on the part of the parents? —If excessive use is indulged in continuously and habitually, there are some injurious ellects caused. I have not, however, observed any particular rule on this matter, and I have paid a good deal of attention on this sid)ject. ."51827. 8o you think, looking the matter all over, that the use of intoxicants in moderation is not harmful ? Will you please deline moderation? I find it is a very variable term and that the detiintion is wonderfully elastic? — I think we are all con- stituted differently, and what is moderation to one would be very great immoderation to another. We all know very well that some people can take only a very small tjuantity Geokqe Tuuner Orton. 82 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 cif Htiimiliiiit. I liiiv*! known mmmi wlm cmilil not tiikt- .i t)'as|i(Miht'iil nut nt' an m-dinaiy ii'a<'ii|i uilliiiiit it making; tlicni alnmsl ill. ;HSJ,s. 'I'licii it is a HiattiT ut' ti-ni|ii'raini'nt, I su|i|iaini' witli inanv niiMJicinfN anil with niany kinds of ncniiisliuu'nt. Sonit- in«'ii, if tln-y taki' li>|i Ih'coiiic ill. anil i( is so in like nianm-r witli tlir use of li(|iioi-. 'I'Ih'It air sonif wlio iimiiot takr liic sniulli'st i|Uiintity : and, (liiTi-fnrc, it is vn-y iin|x>ftanl to llirrn that tlicy slioiild know what lln'V can Itrar and Im* ;.'iiidiMl \t\ tliat aniuiint. ;liS'_".*. ^'oii liaM- stated that sonic nirn seem to Im- alli-rti'd liy liiinor, niorc or Ii-sm, ai-i-oi'diiiL; to tlicit' ti'iiipt'ianirnt, and tip v di< nut. a|i|icai' to sto|i to think of that |>oint. Would It not III- wi'll to liaM> fvi'i'v man unilci';;o a nn'diral I'xaniinat ion, and thru lii> iiiifjlit lit) iilil*' to H*'tn liruiiHH to siiy w-|ictlii'i' In' could drink or not drink .' I am afraid ihc |)roc('ss winijd lie a very ex|peiisive one. .■(li^;!!'. Would tliat lie in accordance with your view.' That is not necessary, i'lverv man is a law to himself, and he ;.'eiierally know> pretty well when he is Ltoini,' wrnii;^, to use a coimuon expression. /If/ Jiii/i/i' Ml- Ihiiiiilil : ;ils;U. If you came .across a man wlio cannot oi- a law to himself, would you inter- fere in such a case with those who can lie laws to themselves, or would you interfere witli t liat |iarticular indi\idual,' 'rakin;; the man who is in the hahit of drinkiii;,' lialiitually, what would you do f The haliitual drunkard should he punished at all c\ents. ■"{iJ^.'tl.'. Which would you think the lietter remedy ; to send a man to jail for a few days, or to place him in some institution with a view to permanent reformation .' < >f course a man who liecomes a continuous drunkard a re;,'ular drunkaril, is in a decidedly dillerent condition from an ordinary imin, and the proper way for ihetiovefii- nient to deal with him is to treat him as if he were on that point insane. There are institutions where a man of that kind can lie properly treated until he has gained com- niaiid of himself and a;;ain liecome a rational human liein;^'. .'JIS:')."!. l)oyou know any country in the world in which there is total prohiliition of the drinking of liiiuor '. There is in Turkey, 1 licjieve. .'WS.'U. Is it not a rule of faith there ,' We have the i>\ idence of the i{ev. l>r. Stewart before us, that in the Fiji Islands there is such a system of com[iulsory prohibi- tion, and there only? -I liaxe heard so. .'i 1 f<.'5."i. Takini; Maine, where liiinor has not been allowed to be sold or kept for .sale, can you not make an estimate as to the eU'ects of total abstineiu^e, lookin;,' upon the people of Maine as a total abstinence community .'No, I cannot possibly do so. .■ilS:i(). From your know'ledjfe of the workin'.; of the Scott Act, do you consider that the people of Scott Act counties .should be classed as total abstainers ? No ; they never were so. ;il''^."i7. You have been asked as to whether the prohibitory clauses of the license law as to election days ami so on are observed. Have you considered as to whether these clauses prohibitini; the sale on election day.s, and on Sunday, commend tlieinsch es to the juil!,'ment and conscience of a far lar;,'er portion of the commuiuty than any such nii'Msure as prohibit ion .' Does that uccouni for the circumstance that prohibition on tlie^e days is well observed .' I think so. :ilS.'{S. From your obser\ation and knowledge of this rule in rej^ard to elections, is there anythinir to prevent the people in any ]ilace whcr- th'.s side on election days is proliibiled layin;,' in on the day previous a private supjiiy, sutlicient to enalile them to tide over the following day ' That is done, and we all know it. .'il '**.■!'.•. So there is no coni)iarison between prohibition for one day ■•md prohibition on the peopl(> permanently ( No, the circumstances are ipiite dilVerent. •Wf^lO. Have you seen the operation of the Scott Act in the Maritime Provincc.H ?— No. ;ilS41. Have you been in any jilace in any of the provinces where this state of thin<,'s existed ; where the Scott Act was enacted, iinil by a sort of unwritten .system a plan was adopted of reguhirly tininj^ the people engaged in the tratHo a .sutlicient amount, almost eijual to a heavy license f— I have not seen that. 21_Ci** 83 TT , If ft I ! '■ I I l|: i! Liquor Traflic — Muiiitobv. US):.'. W'kuIiI llml In- II Millicii-iil iinliicfiiiciit tii tlii' [ pit- ti. I<('c|i llii' riiin'f liii-iit ill torn' mill siiM' I Ih'iiisi'Ix I's tVoin liixalim nut rust ilit'iii sii iiiiii'li (liiriii;; tin- Si-utt A .ilMJ.f. If (I wli you toiiiitl ii .section o t' til IK'flll)- ■ ' II rt lilll liiixc not iiii'iiiit to SUV tliHt it rciillv (lid f lis \v li.-ii I IccliM's were issiici .llflf tin- Scolt Art Wii.s in ft tliiit law was ciii-ricd out, iukI whirien<'e, are you aide to form an opinion iit to why I**hn lii|Uor wtMit in under the permit system duriiii; the lirsl year of its operation jiroportionately, than diirin;; later years, and further, liiat when periiiils increased, sninj^tilin;; increased as re^'ards thei|uantity admitted/ I cannot >ny posiiixely that my oltsei'vat ion woulil carry out that idea. NN'ith repird to the North west Territoiies, there was an entirely diU'errnt state of things after the consti'uution of th«i C. V. \{., wlien tin* |M'ople were ahle to live more in towns and the population was not .so scattei'cd as it was iiefon d wl len, as W( all know, a ^'reat deal of lii|uor was consumed on account of the social conditions of tli jieople, which, as I lia\e stated, weie entirely clian;;e.ssil)le to prevent iff — I think tliat was the casi' very largely. .(1^47. In that way, I sujipose, we may account for the lar^er (|i itity admitted, 't at one time IS almost like an il which, of course, shows a lar''e increase It a well known fact the character of tiie lii|Uor admitted into the Northwest Territoriej poison, Imt still the peoph- thank it. 'I'lien* wiis a very stiong feiding in favour of j;reater iilieity undei' the permit system. I know that as a fact, simply hecanse people k-ere often compelled or teni|ited to Ijiin;; in liipiors that wer<> not tit for use, whereas liy le extension of the pei'init systeni they would have been able to obtain proper, healthy tl was a very stroll'' reason and unadulterated lii|Uors. .'51841^. Y(JU believe that was one end in view? That why the increa.se was allowed. Jii/ /i'rr. />/•. .Wrhnd: .■U^l'.l. I notice in the report of I'ol. Herchmer of the North-west .Mounted Poliei^ foi' IS8S, he .says: I Ih'IIcvc timt liiinsc i.s iiiii.>'i(iii'iil llic iviiiiily for all tlio ti()ii))li'H in ((iiiiicclieii with the (ircsent hitiiutiiiii. anil liaviii).' livcil In Manitnlia in tliu old ilays. \\licii a |ii'rinit was rci|iiii'i'il, ami wlicii it was only r(s|niiisil>lc |)io|)li' wlio were alilc to |(ii(iiirc tlicin, ami having li\cil in llial iiortion of the I'liivinii' since tlie liiinHc law was cnIciiiIciI to it, ami liaving iliiiing all the time 1 livcil llicic occu- pit'il noMitions « liicli ooiasion-'il lontinually tiavclliiifi over a larger settion of tlic country than any other icsidcnt, I liclicvc that I |ioNstss Hiitliiicnt infoiinatioii to speak with sonii' authority on tlii.s i|iii'Ntion, anil I nnliesitatingly alliiin that iiinlcr the |K'nnit .system aiul the N'oitli west .\ct, as then iiit('i|)ietiil liy our juilgi's, tluic was less intoxiialion among the whites, accoiiliiig to |)ii|iulatioii : anil llu'ie can he no i'iim|iarisoii lietween the i|naiitity of liquor then supplieil to liulians ami the i|iiiintity llu'V have olitaiiieil since that portion of the province was, as certain people call it, emaiici' paleil. The cxlraoiilinaiy powers of tlu' North wt'st .^hluntel| I'oliue, it l)eiiig in their power to I'aicli forthwith, without process of law wherever into.viuatiiig liiiuors are supposed to lie in posseH- ; . .1 f IV.. ..1 .. 1 : 1...1.1 1 »l » i;ii: ..1... ■ ' Bt ill I II ii'i i II «i II II, >\ 1 ' in 'III |ri 1 n \ .^.-. . il ill M ti 111 I T I ^ I lilll '.Mi^K t il•j^ III I iii'i .^ III t .-iiiifipiif^fi I iii I If III Miinncn' siiin, these powers are of no elt'ecl where permits are helil. and consL'(|Ueiitly great diHiciilty is ex)>er- ieiiicil ill olitaiiiing I'onvictions against tlie ilealeis. Scaioli has heen fiei|iieiitly made hy us where we were assured iii|Uor was sold. The lii|iior was found hut a permit was always jirodueed to cover it. Our powers aie therefore iilirogated when permits are freely issued. During the year an inno- vation was estalilished hy licensing the .sale of heer of an alcoholic strength not exceeding 4 per cent. A fair test has not yet heen made, and the results are not yet apparent. ,So far, the iiuinher of |)cr- mits issued apparently has not decreased. It will he ditlicult to prevent the sale of heer of greater alcoholic strength. None hut a eheinical expert coulil determine the lunoiiiit of alcohol in any jmr- ngt (jrKOiiCJK TuifNEU OfiTON. Bi 57 Victoria. SesHiomil Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 !' tl tirlll.ll '•■•r, mill llli'lirmi' it unllld lir illllii'lllt in tlll» ilislriil t>i iilit4ll;i a ■ •ilivirlinll f... a Hli'iiiiut'i IhtI' til. Ill tllllt III I'llMil. hril^^iMtt lliivr i'\ri'|ilii>|iiil fai'illllrH till' sl'|lill^', iif u llirli Ntillli' IlilM' lilki'll i|\aiitauf. W lii»k> nr l>iitiii|\ iiiiilii tlu' iiaiiu' ul " Imiii " r\liiliil< ijiiiti' ax rxliilaiatiiiK I'lli < ti> at iili'i it if ^ mWII jilaill iiaiiir. IS)* V'll iilix 'I'Mil timt iiH till- rt'siill nt' vniir nliMTMiiiiiii ill llif Nmlli west TiTfi- lorn" I • ■aiilM't >-iiv SI), lii'railsi I ll IM' lint lii't'M III till i'i|l|iil |>ii«lllii|| III Jllilui r wiiiilil. liiiui'\)T, Ih- iiii'liiii'd to (liiiilit it iiiyM'lt'. ."U**")". I '<> Villi t liiiik ( '(iiiiiiiissiniiiT lliTrliiiiiM' ■< ii| i|Hirl Unit ii's nmiiiIiI Iw i|iiiii> iis i;ihhI as iliiiM- lit' any |>iT.siin wild Hilly \i.sils tin- 'rciiitnrirs iii'i'asiitiialiy .' I tiiiiiksn, ^'|||| iiiiiHt n-i'iillt-ct that Ills |M)siliiiii as li*>iiil nt' tlii> .Mniiiilfil I'lilicc iIin'm nut |ilac(> liiiii ill as t.'«"i|. ^^ hen ymi s|iiiki' aliinit siiiii^';iliiii;, I su|i|io,si' yuii sfiukc nut tniiii ym ' [it'i' iiial (iltsiM'vatiiiii iiMT a \ffy lafyi- aii'a. hut tVniii fiiiiinicii f<'|nirt ! I''niiii soni lillMTVat Hill. • iJ.'^'lL'. NV.Iulli it 111' MTV l\l t'llsiM- iil.sfix at lull I was liackwani :iii.'<. S| leaking almul the elect inn law |iriihiliit iiii; t he 1,'ivini,' and sale w Tl a dead lettei itii li<|Uiii' in their pucketM tn the |iii|!in;,' places, making' (he I aw '.\\X'> I. Then »!iere is still iimredr less drink in;; .' There is vi'i-y little, cniiipiinitively ;t|s: I). > ynu rei'ard this \iiilatiiin nt the law as deiiinnstrat i\e nt the iiselessni nt the law ! I (In lint think it deiiiniist rates the iiselessness nt' the law. 1 think the lax is \ery useful, ill spite nt' the vinlatinn, tn tlie e.xtont indii-iiled. .lis:.);. It" there was a jirnhiliitnrv law and there were vinlatinns, wniild these viniatinlis deliinlistrate the uselessness nt' the law? On accnuiit nt the piililic t'eelini; heini,' really imt in accnrd with tntal prnhiliilinn, a ;,'reai deal nt injury wniild lie dniie, ImiIIi tn the iiinral character nf the jienple and al.sn tn the penple i,'eiieially, l)y the eiiael- liieiit nf Nucli a law. ■'tlsriy. Why, in ynur npiiiinn, wiiuhl it damage the character nf the penple, when it wniild lie the vinlatinn nf a law tn pre\eiit an e\il thin;; and not to aiithnri/e an e\il thin;; .'--It depends mi what ynu consider to he an evil tliiiii;. .'ilsriS. The e\il of the drink trade / -I do lint eniisider the pmper and ninderate ise nf either malt li(|Unrs nr spirituous li(|Un inadiilterated, as a iiuhlic iniiirv .'UM.")!). Iiiit ynu have stated you would jilace severe jiro ihihiti around the t rade i —Such a.s are ahsnlutely necessary f had experience nf the .Scntt Act. Tiiat Act was largely eiicnura;;ed hy the peo|)le hecaus(! they thou;;ht it nii;;ht do some ;;o(Ki, hut as they found, hy practical experience, it proved to he a dead letter, the people were ;;lad to ;;et rid of it. With that exjierience and with that kno\\led;;e, T think it would he 85 liiquor Traffic — Manitoba. : if' I i !, i i ! lli ^6 W \n-y unwise for iiiiy Icj^ishition to he eiiiu-ted, either by t!ie loeiil or Dominion Len. olSC)"). Do you tliink llie Seott Act a dead failure? (ienerally it was. .'HH(i(J. Do you tliiiik it wouhl daiiia^^e tlie trade of Wimiijieg if tlie li(|Uor trade were not permitted in tliis city ( Yes, if total pr'oliiliition were attempted in \\'iMiiipe<,'. .'US(>7. I understaiul you lia\e fifty lictMised drink siiops in Winnipeg/ Tliey arc! jn'iiunpally hotels. .'USO.S. These (ifty liuensed houses wduld probaiily gather in about 8()'>0,000 a year. Do y(»u tliink it would be an injury to the business of Winnipeg if they were no longer allowed to carry on their business and that the money would bo turned into other chiimiels? — A great tleal of that money would be turned into channels in which Winiii- jieg Would not be beiietited. The people cannot keep it in tlieir own ]iockets, but must use it in som.i' way, and by em]>loying it in difTerent ways they benefit general trade. ;ilS('>'.l. Doy.m think "that tiie'StiUO.OOOis as well and profitably distributed by the fifty men who obtain it as it woulil be l)y the several hundreds of men and their families who t ransfer t lie money into the hands of these fifty men for the time being? l)o they really receive great benefit? -I do not think they do, though of course they obtain a certain e(pii\alent. The men probal)ly t.'ike alcohol, in a large number of ca.ses, because thi'y think it adds to their ow n pleasure, comfort and happiness. ;U^70. Does it do so .' -We might carry on this disi'ussion for some time. T can, of course, give an illustration. All the toys anl fancy goods in Winnipeg are of no use, and are of cour.se not of the full value of the money [laid for tiiem ; but it does not follow that these toys sliouid be entirely done away with, simply on the ground that tiiey are useless, for by buying tliem you gi'e circulation to many a dollar. .'51^71. l>o you consider that a dollar spent on children in this way is more properly .spent than a dollar spent in li(|uor / I do not think it is necessary for a father to go home in a state of " fuddle," if he conducts himself as the majority of people do. Are you assuming tiiat tlii' great majority of jieople are drunkards? .■ilf<72. Sujiiiosing betakes ilie toys home to the boys and girls or spends the dollar in drink and has a .sort of a jolly air, fetds comfortable, which is the more profitable to himself and family? Are the ca.ses parallel? — I think they are. The use -of li((Uor in iModeration does a man's family no harm, and is perliajis less injurious to the material prosperity of his family than spending a lot of money in useless toys and decor- ations. At the same time, i do not see why the other shorld be forbidden. Why should not the childr'Mi have their pleasure*, and why at the .same time should not a man take what is gooil f(jr his health and pleasant to himself, s(j long as he does not take too much of it? .'?1S7.'5. You, as a physician, have come into contact with such families? -A great deal. 31^74. Ha\e you observed whether the drinking habits of the father have had injurious etlects in any degree on domestic conditions? I have found a great deal of unlia)ipine,ss among those who have taken li(juor to excess. 3187"). Do a great numher take li(]uor to excess? — No, not a great number. 3187G. Do you think the number would amount to •"» per cent of tin; people? — I do not think so. 3]tS77. Would it amount to '2 per cent?— Probably. GEOUfiK TruNKii OirroN. 86 'n 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 PATRICK LAWLEH, of Wimiijiei,'. on J)eiiig duly sworn, deposed as follows :■ — Jiy J>id(fc McDonald : •'U87S. You !irt! (Jovoriior of tlic Jail, T holicve? --Yes. 31S7!). Is tli(> jail for tlie county and for the nity? — It is tin- district jail. .'i I f'iSO. What is the nanieof the district/ — The Eastern Judicial District of Manitoba. .'ilSSi. How loiii; hav(> you icsidod in Winnipcs; ? Ahout 18 years. .■?1SS2. |)id you conic hci'c from one of the otiicr provinces/ — "So, T came here from the old conntiT. .'JISS;!. How lon^i liaNO you been (iovernoi- of the jail I — About 12 yeai's. .'(1S84. Do you lind a lartfo propoi'tion of the prisoners connnittetl to jail are thei-e throuudi drunkenness, directly or indirectly? — Very few are comniitt(Ml ther'e for drunkenness. ,'il88."). What is done with those who are committed to jail for drunkenness ? — - The jioilce dispose of them at the police station. ■'ilSSC). So only a small ])r()jiortion come to the jail tliroujili drunkenness? A very small number. .'iI8S7. <.)f those who come to the jail on acco'ii t, of othei' otl'ences, is there a large jiroportion of cases wliii'h might bi' attributed to ^i; .mkeiiness indii'ectly? -I record the prisoners as the\ come in, and obtain fi'om them /in account of tlie extent to which they use intoxicating licpiors. I have found that about one-half lia\(' i)een gi\fn to the use of intoxicating li(|Uoi' in excess. That is the fact as obtained from theii' own state- ments to jny.self. ;il8SS. Ifave you I'cjison to believe that the report is true? -I have leason tobelieve it is ti'ue in a good many eases. .'USSi). Do you find that t(j be the case both among males anuntry wher'e pi'ohibition was in force ? — Never. 31902. Have you ever visited such a country ? No. 31903. How many prisoners ar'e in jail now ? —Twenty-eight. Ihl Jii'v. Br. Mc.Uod: 31904. Tn regai'd to tho.se 28 prisoners, what would be their' crimes principally ? — Petty larceny. 87 J' , ( ! II liiqiior Traffic — Manitoba. 3190."). Men and woiiit'ii Ixith f— There are a few men in for vaiji •iiicv. ii<> women. .■$1000. Are tliere any boy.s and girls about IT) and IG years old .' N'o. 31907. Perhaps you do not have (hem committed to jail .so young .' We had .some young people a few years ago. :{11)0S. Of the l'S i)risoners, would you lie able to judge whether most of them were drinking people (»r not ? — I could not judge. I know that a few of them were pretty hard drinkers. 31909. So you have observed that half of the people under your charge are given to drinking, more or less? — Yes. It: t:5 iif m If LOUTS \V. COLTTLEE of Winnipeg, Barri.ster, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows :— JJy Judge MrDnnald : 31910. Do you hold any otHcial position ? — T command tlie Field ISattery heie. I have held (jovernnient otHces here, (juite a number of them. .■$1911. Mow long have you resided in thi.s city ? — I have been here about 1 1 years. 319r2. Ila\e you Ix'en connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway Comi)any? - I had some e.xjjerience in the portion of the province east of here at the time of the dispute with the Province of Ontario. T had then jurisdiction in that district which ■was called Section 15, and Section !•'), and of course most of the prosecutions in that district were respecting the liipior traffic, and 1 wsus Deputy Attorne^y General foi' the Province (jf Manitoba. 31913. Was there any license law in force down there at that time ? — No, Avith the exception of the Public Works Act. 31911. That Act you sought to enforce, I believe? -We were endeavoui'ing to enforce that Act in the inniicdiate \icinity ( flD 1 (111 not recollect any place in wliidi it was ever passed : I knuw that it was in force at one time in Pontiac, but that was ([uite a while a^'o. Of cmii'se prohibition is in force in the State of Maine. •■U!)2"J. Have you ever' been there ? — Yes, very freciuently in the sununer months. IH'.tL'.S. How was the law oijserved there? -It was practically not oi)ser\ccl. ;U924. Were you able to net li([Uor .' — -I had no ditKculty about ;fettin!; li(|Uor, except that 1 had Ui yo down to the cellar for it : but in th(> hotels, you had not (>vimi to do that. ;ni)25. Have you had any experience in the North-west Teiritorii-s .' \'ery little. r have, of course, been in the Xoi'th-west 'Perritoi'ies. ;$1'J2(). In what part have you been ?- I have been in the eastern |)ar!. I lia\e never been there sutHciently lon.t; to enable me to express an opinion ; in fact. I am not competent to express an opinion in re^'ard to the workin.u; of thai law. .319l'7. Have you considered ihe (juestion of prohibition / 1 cannot say that T have studied the (piestion of ))rohibition as it is j;'enei'a.lly understood. .'{192S. I mean the pi'ohibition of the manufacture, importation and sale of li(|uor? — C^uite so. ."UD^'J. .Judging from your experience in the cases you have spoken of, do you con- sider it woulfl be feasible to enforce .such ca law? — T do not think it would be possible to enforce such a law, prohibiting tlie sale, unless the maiuifacture and importation were also prohibited, and that, I suppose, would not be possii)le with our boundary. ^'ou inii;lit |)rohibit tlie manufacture to a larm' extent, but our boundai'y is so exteusisc 1 am cei'tain there would be snmg^din",'. 3iy.'?0. Were there any illicit stills in the North-west Territories? I am not certain about there i)einfi any there ; we formerly had them in the County of Ottawa. .■{1!);U. What articles did they u.se in making; the li(|Uor? -They Ljenerally used potatoes. .■ni)32. We found in the Province of Quebec that the illicit stills larsi;ely used molasses : was that also used in Ottawa? — Stills were found in which the inspectors said molasses had been used. Ii it )f ALEXANDER A. AlJiD, of Winnipeg, Clerk (.f the Police Coui't, on being duly sworn, (lepo.se(l as follows : — Jii/ Ji((h]i' McDoimhl : .'H93.'5. How long have you resided in Winnipeg? Nearly 11 years. 31934. How long have you been Clerk of tlie Police Court'?— A little over 10 years. 319.3.^. Did you come from one of the other pro\ inces ? — I came from ' hitario. 3193(). What jiart of Ontario? -In tli(> vicinity of Cobourg. .31937. Was a prohibitory enactment in force there .'—The Scott Act has been in force there for some time. 31935. How did you (ind it work there? It did not work nciv well. 319.39. That would be in the C'ountics of Nortlunnberliuid and Diirham .' ^^■s. 31910. Then you did not find it a success/ -No. 31911. (t was not successfully (!nforced, J suppose '. It was not enforced, and there was no machinery with whicii to enforce it. 3191'2. Have you seen pi'ohibition in forces in any other country .' -No. 31943. The Conmiission hail evidence from the I'olice .Magistrate in regard to the city police court, and he told the Commissioners that the persons chaigiul with drunken- ness ax'eraged about two a day for the business days of the court. Do you agree with him in that statement ? -That would l)e for the total days in the year ; you could not consider it for business days, because there aredrunkai'ds on Sunday. The lai'gc propor- tion of the drunkards are repeaters. 89 'tj! 1 1 I I i !■ if 3: Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 311)44. Are there more convictions than indivitUials ? — Yes. 31945. Have you many known iui the class of repeaters, on Sunday? — I suppose there are al)out 15. 31!)46. Have you any tliat repeat very often ? — There are some. 31'J47. .Tu(lj;in.<; from your experience with sucli cases, do you think a better system to adopt would he to keep on the present system of (h'alinj; with these pe()j)le, or to lock them up in some institution for a certain lenj^thof time? — I think it would be better to place them in some institution for a time. 31!)4S. Do you mean an asylum ? Yes. 3194!*. Do you find these terms of imprisonment have any reformative effect? — I think not. 31 950. Can you state the number of persons convicted last year for drunkenness ? — About 5G0. 31951. How many other cases were tried in the court ?— About 1 ,2G0 cases were tried. 31952. Were tliere any of tlie otlier cases attributable to drunkenness?— Some of tliem. 31953. Do you mean assaults and offences of tliat kind ? — I do not remember a.ssaults, but I remember some larceny cases were attributed to drunkenness. 31954. From your ofticial experience, are you able to su<;gest any amendment in the law respecting tlie sale of intoxicating liquor? — I liave not considered the question. liy liev. Dr. Mc.Leod : 31955. Have you a statement of the nundier of arrests for drunkenness for this year, I mean the year ending .'iOth September, 1892? — I do not remember the figures. 31956. Was tliere any increase or decrease of cases? — There was an increase in the total number of cases, l)ut I tiiink a decrease in the cases of drunkenness. 31957. Df> you have many cases of juvenile offenders? Very few. 31958. Are you able to say wlietlier any proportion of tlie thefts, cases of vagrancy and offences by cliildron are attributable, if not to the drinking of the persons tliem- selves, to tlie drinking of j)arents or guardians ? Some cases of petty larceny and some other cases are atti'ibutable to that cause, and also some cases of vagrancy. Some of these jieople do nothing but beg, and when they obtain alms tiiey spend the money on drink. Those cases are attributable to tlie use of li([uor. 31959. Leaving the diuiiks aside altogether: of the other ca.ses that come before your court, are you in a position to .say wiicther any proportion of them are directly or indirectly attributable to the drink habit and to the drink trade? — I can say that some of them are. 31960. What proportion : do you think 25 per cent? — No, T do not think so. In my opinion, F would lie safe in saying 10 per cent of them. 31961. Of all ofi'ences, otlier than drunkenness, that come before you, how many of the ort'enders are diunkards ? — It is a hard matter for me to tell. 31962. Would 10 per cent of them be drunkards? — I could not form an o[)inion. There are many case, of breaches of the by-laws, and of course I know nf)tliing of the habits of the peoph-. 31963. <)f all the offences that come before you, are the offenders made up of drinkers largely ?- They are about 50 per cent. 31964. Then about half the cases you have to deal with are for drunkenness? — Yes. Hi par ilr U do Alexandkh a. .\I1)U. '90 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 CHARLES J. lillOWN, of Winnipeg, on Ijeing duly ssvorn, deposed as f(jllo\v.s : — By Judge McDounttl : 31965. Wliat is your Inusiness or oocupation ? -I am City Clerk, of Winnipeg. ;iiy6G. How long liave you resided here? 20 years. 31',)67. Did you eonie from one of tlie otiiei- provinces .'- I came fiom Kingslon. .'Ul)68. How long have you been City Clerk? ~A little over i) years. 311)01). Does Winnipeg ohtain any revenue from licenses? — It does. 31!)70. Can you tell what was the amountof tiio rexeinie last year .' -No, 1 cannot ; that is outside of n;y department. Mr. Currie is the Comptroller ; the money does not j)ass through my hand.s. 31!)71. Then you do not know what sum was accounted for amount was .sometliing like .■^34,000. 311)7l!. 1 see hy a pa])er handed to me, which appears to he year ending Aj)ril, 18!)3, the estin>ated revenue, otiier than hotel licenses, ii?C,000 ; restaurants, $1,750; wholesale li(|uoi', !?1,S00, out of a total revenue received for licenses of 819,190. That is an oflicial statement, I sui)pose? — Yes, that is the estimate that was adopted. 31973. Have you, as a citizen of Winnipeg, observed the working of tlie license law: is it satisfactory? 1 liave not given any attention to it. In fact, lam very little in town, and I spend vei'y little of my time when 1 am in town outside of the otlice. I do not go round, and I know very little about it. ?-~Krom all sources tlui iissessmentfor the fiscal taxation, is as follows : ■111 COLIN TNKvSTKU of Kiklonan, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows:-- By Judge ^fc Donald : 31974. For what district are you Sheriff? — I am Sheriff of the Hastern .ludicial District of Manitoba. 31975. How long have you held the pociition ? - - 1 have been Sheriff since 187<). 31976. Are you a native of the province ! — I am. 31977. So your memory goes back to the days befoi'e the province became a ])art of the Canadian Confederacy. What system was in force in the old days, before this province became part of the Confederacy, in regard to the sale of li<|uoi-/ There was a license law. It was managed by the Hudson Hay Company and by the Council of Assiniboia. 31978. By whose authority was the Council itself appointed? — By authority of the Hudson Bay Company. 31979. Was it made up principally of Hudson Bay factors and otlicers of the Com- pany ? - No. 31980. Then was it chiefly composed of people drawn from outside? — Yes, chiefly. 31981. Were you one of the Council? No, but my father was. 31982. Did the Council have a regular system of licenses at that time? — Yes. 31983. Was the number limited? — I do not think the nundjer was limited, but I do not recollect. 31984. Was the license fee large ? — Yes, 31985. Dft you reniendier the amount? — I forget the amount of the fee. 31986. Was there any limit as to the kind of li(|uor that should be sold, or was it both spirituous and fermented? — It was both. 31987. Was there any limit as to the people to whom it should be .sold ?--I could not sa/ as tf) that. I do not know whether Indians were allowed to buy it or not. 31988. Was there any limit as to hours of sale ?- Yes. 31989. What was the limit? — I do not know. 31990. Was sale allowed to go on during Sunday ? No, not on Sunday, 91 1 ill i '(: I f liiquor Traffic — Manitoba. .'U{)i)l. Did tliat law jirevail over tlie whole of the Hudson Bay Country? — Only «ivei- the IJisti'ict of Assiuiiioia, within a radius of ')0 miles from Fort (Jarry. ;51'Ji)'_'. Then you ha\<' no ree(jl lection as to wiiether then; was much drinkinj^ in those ilays? — I may say that drinking wius more ♦'ishionable in th;{. Were the social habits of the people different ? -Yes. .■51i>'.)l. r suppose li(|uor was used nioi'e by the people then than it is now f No, I do not think so : l)ut it was used more over the social board than it is now, at meals 80, and so on. ;Jl!)l(i). Was wii\e used at meals? -Very little : only by the higher classes. 31'J'Jl). When you spoke of the social board, I su]>poseyou meant that when friends would call on one another li(|uor would be pi'oduced? — Yes. .'UD'JT. Was there much drinking at the taverns in those days? — There was very little drinking at ttiverns. .'51 '.IDS. Were there occasional waysiH. I)i) you know anything as to the woi'king of tlu^ revenue law in connection with it? — For ten years the customs receipts came through my hands, Init not sincf that time. .'5204.">. You do not have anything to do with the revenue as Assistant Receiver General ? — No, notliing but the issue and redemption of Dominion money. .'52040. Have you had any experience of the working of a prohibitory law at any time?- No. .'52047. Have yriu evei- lived in a ])rohibitory town? — No ; T have been so long here. 3204S. Dave you been in the North-west Territories ?- -No. .'52049. Ha\e you studied the <[uestion of prohiI)ition? -Not seriously. 32050. Supposing a prohibitory law to be passed, doing away with the importation, manufactui'e and sale of li(|Uor for bevei'age purposes, do you think it right and j)roper that brewers and distillers should be recouped for the loss of their plant I — 1 tiiink tliey should. Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : 32001. Wliy would you compensate brewers and distillers?-— Tlu'y have a legalized business, and of course, if it is taken away from them, they should be compensated. 320.")2. It is legalized, we undei-itanil, from year to year, by reason of the license they obtain? I suppose it is. .■520").'5. If tiie trade was abolished, why should they have any claim on the public funds beyond tlie claim of other men whose business would b(! aft'ected by ordinary events? I think it would be e(|uivalent to doing away with a business and leaving the jieople engaged in it without any I'ecompense. 320.")4. Does it not occur to you, in considering the (]uestion of these other indi- viduals, that the rule has been not to give any compensation in case of a change in the tariff? — In the majority of ca.ses such has been the case. JOHN W. STFTr)X, of Winnipeg, m\ being •"). Wiiat are your (hities .' To tind out iiow the |ii'isons are coiidueted in e\ery ]>artieular, how the prisons are taken care of, whether tiie institutions are mainlaine per cent. .'5207(). That is drunkenness on their own part? — Ye.s. 32077. The indirect cases are ditlicult to ol)tain ? - Neai ly all of thiMu are from the old countiy or from Ontai-io or are foreigners, and, as I have jiointed out, nearly all of them are foreigners whose histories cannot i)e traced. The Superintendent has. uruli'i' my insti'uction.s, prepared a history in regai'd to this vei'y ]ioint, so that we would lie able to arrive at a decision on the matter, but the Commissioners are aware how ditlicult it is to obtain the requisite information. .'5207<~'. Th(?n it is ditlicult to obtain those particulars from the patients themselves? —-The facts is that thret?-fourths I think f would be safe in stating that percentage of the cases we lij've are hereditary, but the direct cause is no doulit attributable to licpior. But, as I have already stated, it is impossible to give to the Conuni.ssion further information than I have ah'eady given. 32079. Y'^ou ai'e having, T believe, some ditHcult}' in regard to the superintendence of the lunatic asylums? I am not aware of it. .'52080. So far as you are aware the I'eturns show a comparative small percentage of cases traceable to drink, but some of tiie Superintendents say, and they may be regarded as experts, that the predisposing cause in a lai'ge majority of cases is alcohol ? The Superintendent says that to me. 95 u i r; w. Liquor Trattic — Munitolm. IV.'OSI, hues tlic Mcdif.il Sii|n'riiilcn(l<'nt live lit-re I No, lit' lives •_'.'? mil's away. .'J'JUS'-'. Art' tlici'c many | i)l<' in tlic Jloiiic t"i»r hicuralilcs f 'i'lii'i't- arc alxait "lO there. 2'_'()S.'i. 1)() yiiii kiiiiw anytliiii;; nt' tiifir lii.storics f Tlicrt' are several lliere tVnm iiieohol as a flii'eet cause. S<»iiie who are ahh' to pay for their iiiaiiiteiiaiice are, |iut there, hut the j.'rcater |>nrticin of the imnates arc iioii-payinj;, and the reason for their nonpayin;; is the tact that their parents have been indicted for the excessive use of jitjuor. ."(•JOSI. So you think that that i)ul)lic char^re is in part traceable to drink .' It is vei'v larf^ely trai-cahlc to drink. .^^OM"). \\'hat otiiei- institutions ha\e ytiu in chai'fie ; havc^ you the Deaf and Dumh Hchools and Hospitals ! I havi; all the hos])itals in the j)rovince under my ciiarj,'c. .SliOSC). Are theie several of them I - There are foui'. H:i(J87. In the cases in the hospitals, are you ahle to say whethei' any percentaj^e of the cases that come into the hospitals are cases traceable to di-ink / — Of course, I do not know whethei- you refer to accidents or diseases. I (h» not think we have any reports tliat would furnish positive knowled;;*) of that sul»jeet, because! the j)atients are there only foi' one. two or three weeks, and no general history is taken of them. I am President of one of the Hospital Hoards, and more than half of the non-j)ayin<; patii^nts durinj; last year wei'c admitted i)eeause of the influence of li(|Uor on themselves and on theii- families. I think it is .safe to say tliat the non-fiayuig patients in other hospitals are «(uite as ^^reat in nundier. ."VJOHH. I understand that vou ha\c been a rc-idi it of this city foi' a lonj,' time '/— Yes. .'iL'ljS'.). Ilax'c thci'e been any chany;es in the drinkinj,' habit.s of the people during the last IS years of your resiihuice ,' - A^'ry j{reat. .SiiU'.tl). Thei-e is less drinkinjj; than tiiere was formerly '? — I think there is h'ss in propf>rtion to the population. ;5:iO'.(l. Is there a stronj^ temperance sentiment in this cctnnnunity ?— I think .so, I have no doubt about it. ;5l!U'.)L'. How do you rejfard the plebiscite expression of opinion in favour of Prohibi- tion : was it the i!X|)i'ession of the wishes of the people in the way they ni>^fint to exjiress tlieniselxcs ? — It would be a libel on the people to .say anything else. They were .sober anil intelligent people who voted. .Sl'O'.K!. Then you ries ? — I do not ; practically T know nothing about it. John W. Sikton. 96 '>'", 67 "Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 KlilO'-'. r jtresoiiH' you have lic'-l (litrtM'ciit ntlicial positions in this I'rovincc ,' — Y«'S. ."ll'lO;!. What positions liavn yon lii-ld / -I was Manistiatf tor a miinlxT of years, I was a in»'nil)er of tJic Local Housf, I was SjH-akfr of the Lical House ontf session. I ha«l a great many fasfs Ix'forc nic as .Maj^isti'atc dui'iri;,' four years. I lia\t' not lieeii oceupied as such sinee then, hut durin;,' the tinu? I was .Ma;,'istrate I had a j^reat many east's coniin^ l)efi«r€' me. I lived at Selkirk at that tinu', I came here in connection Ik it Ik the construction of the C. P. H. ■'i21U4. In what position ?— As contractor. I had contract No. 11, for laying "ti miles east of Selkirk. ;?:ilOo. The Connnissionors have lieeu told that it is inipossihle to enforce i)rolnl)itioii here J — I should like to tell the Connnissi(»n about |>rohil>ition and the possihility of enforcing it. 1 went there, and had 7C miles of roail under my jurisdiction up to the lime of its c()mj>k"tion. I had authority under the Public Works Act to prevent the suJe of li(juor on that track. I decitled that in my own interest, as well as in the interest of the men, I would endeavour to carry out that law. During those four years there never was any liquor .sold on that contract —I .say that emj>hatically. Liquor came in it is true, but it did not get the chance of being sold except to one man each time. I found it quite pw.ssible tf) enforce the Act. [ could e.\plain a few matteis in connection with the reason why it was not enforced legally. There were parties who wanted to sell ftad traile there. It was stated that the Act would not be enforced, but .several men were brought up And half a dozen men escaped. That manner of enforcing the law could not continue, so more rigid measures were requisite. The peopU^ employed on my section well knew that 1 deaired to enforce the law, and that I would do so. 3l'106. I suppo.se that when they knew you were in earnest, the sale ceased ,'^ I asted the a.ssistance of Mr. Davis, who said that the only assistance I could have would be live constables, but he said at the same time that he would endeavour to assist me to carry out the law. Afterwards he sent me a connnunication, and I found the respon.si- bility rested on myself, and after that I had no trouble. .■J2107. Did yon need mon,' constables ?— I had no constable on the work, except a niiui who acted as foreman. I had one of the engineers appointed as Magistrate by the (}ov<»rnor of Keewatin, Honourable Mr. Morris, but no case came befoi'e him. .■J2108. So one constable succeeded in enforcing the law ? — I never had a case t;tken l)efore the Magistrate. I had two men brought in, but I let them both g(», I did not tine them, but I obtained a promise from them that they would never Im found engaged in the business again, which pi'omi.ses they both kept. One is in this country to-day. ."{2109. Have you any knowledge of prohibition in any other place? You have knowledge, I believe, of prohibition in Manitoba in earlier days? — I lived foi- sometime in Southern California and was in two prohibition towns : one with 10,000 inhabitants near Los Angeles, Pasadena, where I was for a considerable time. •■^21 10. And the other was what f — Riverside. ■■^21 1 1. How far are they from each othei' ? About 40 miles. .'52112. From youv observation, was prohibition enforced tliei'e .' -1 think it was the most thorough and successful thing I ever knew. They hiul it in Pasadena. There was one constable there, and he was also night watchman and health inspector and held two or three other ottlces. .'52113. And did he succeed in enforcing the law? -He told nie he had no ti'oublo. He told me they would come down from Ijos Angeles drunk, they would get out of the train aiul they would be put into the lock up. It is 10 miles from Los Angeles and nearly GOO miles south of San Francisco. .'$2114. From yt>ur experience and observation, you believe that prohibition is possible of enfoi'cement ? — I do not think there is any ,'ht. .■*2I lit. An to " li^'ht " ; wluit is your vit'w iilxnit tliiit ? I iim not sun- liiit we hiivn a i'i;,'lit to pay them sonn'thin>,'. g .'JlJI-'U. VVIiat is till' point as to the "exjtediency"? -I think it wouhl Im* fxpt'diont to (In HO. .'{■Jl'il. Ih llicic any oiIhm- vifw that is worthy of ronsidoi'tttion/ -It in in my ojiinion a niatlci' to )>(> scttlfd )>y the jNipular \(>t<>. .^■JIl'L'. ho y(ni think it would pay tin- country to ctuict a ){enofal proliihitory law, it' as a ronditioii of that law, compensation should Im- ^'ranted to l)r('wci-s and distillers ,' — -f do not think there is any douht aUuit it. I have fhouj^ht ovtM' the subject a great deal and f cei'tainly think it would l>e a \eiT yreat iienefit. .'{I'l'JU. Have you f,'iven any consideration to the I'evenue side of the (juestion / - We derive a larj^e rexcnue from the sale of liipiors anil alnait !?10,OUU.O(*'' n Custom ri< led and the moral standing of the commu- nities is high. Take the condition of .i.rt'i'irs right in our own Province and wheiever the Act is enff)rced, we find the sara' '••i-.ellent condition, and there is no question but that as the sentiment of the country has increa.sed in that direction, we have imjiroved morally. We think we are the most moral and sober i)eople on this continent. We think we can bear that out by statistics. We think there is no city of the same size so sober as Winnipeg. By Judge McDonald : ■ 32131. Which do you think will be brought about first, the creation of Winnipeg as the national capital or natioiuil {Prohibition? — -I think probably we will get to natitmal prohibition first. 32132. When you .spoke of the sentiment of the province, did you mean temperance sentiment or prohibition sentiment, or do you think one is alx>ut the same as the other ? — They are very much the same, and also moral sentiment. John W. Sii-ton. 98 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 to :)'iUi-'<. Then you think ti-inpt'iiiiic*' .siMitiiiu-nt, |iri)liiliiti. •'$'_'|.'{7. Do you mean to say tiuil the o|i|)ortunities iii'e hetter in tiiis jii'Mvince lluin in any other ]iart of Canada / t)r do you mean to say that Canada has hetler o|i|iurtu- iiities than any otiiei- country in the worhl for )>rMhil)ition, '••■.:1 (hat Manitoba is the he.st |iart of Canada in tliat respect / 1 do not know tliat I would say that. .'{'Jl.'tJ^. Yofi have said that you consider prolnhit ion, fairly well enforced, would hrinj; alMiut lienelicial results. What do you mean hy fairly well enforced ! I should say the law was fairly well enfoi'ced if tht^ consumption of lii|uor wa.s redui'ed .say down to 1(J per cent of what it is at present. ."{•J I .■{'.(. Do you know anythin;^ of the working of the Maint; Ijiw? — I ha\e spent some time in Maine. .■(■Jl \0. Do \ou moan In a proliihitory law such a law as the Maiiui l^aw t That is aliuut what I mean. ."{•J in. Would you favour such a law for Manitoha/ -Yes, if I could ff-t it. '•\l\i2. Are you aware that any resident of the Stfile of Maine may have all the liijuor he pleases in his own cellar for his own use antl give it away to liis friends, hut he must not .sell it or keep it for .sale ,' -Ye.s. I{:il4.'{. That is the law you would favour ?- Yes, I would amend my answer to that Bi/ Rev. Di\ McLeod : .'52144. Would you chanj^e the Maine Law in that iv.spect ? — It would depend on the con.sequences. Jiij Jndijp McDoniild : .■$214"). Do you know that Geiu'ral Neal J)ow in jj;ivin<; evidence to this Commi.ssion stated that he would not attempt to elianf^e the law in that respect t I do not know what would 1)<^ the conseijuenees of chanjfinfi the law. .'$2146. He would like to do so prohahly, hut he tleclared it would be impossible to do .so on account of jjublic sentiment? — That is what I mean, I could not .state the con- sequences, but I would not charig(^ it for that reason. .'52 147. Then we may take as your answer, that you would have a law prohibiting people keeping liijUor in their hou.ses for beverage purposes, but if you could not get that law, you would be willing to permit it to be used for domestic purposes, but not sohU — That is my opinion exactly. ■■$214iS. We now come back to your phrase " fairly well enforced." lJ)o you think it would be j)ossible to enforce such a law as Jiat which you wish to have enacted at the j)resent time, which is a law to prevent the peoph' obtaiiung any alcoholic liquors whatever? — No, I would not : I think expediency would make me beware on that point. .S214y. As to your opinion that no liquor should be obtained for bevei-age pur- poses? —In two sections of the province the people have already pa.ssed such a law, the .Scott Act. .'52150. We understand that you voted recently in Winnipeg, and that the people declared very .strongly in favour of prohibition? — Yes. .'$2151. Have any steps been adopted since that vote was taken, to bring into effect a law that rested entirely with the people to adopt, the 8cott Act ? — No, we have not taken any steps — it does not rest with us. ;521.">2. So the people would simply vote in favour of prohibition ?- -The people would vote against the Scott Act. .'52l").'5. Why? — Because it failed here before. .'521.54. On what grounds did it fail? — -On a technical point ; I do not know exactly w^liat it was. |i| I. 21— 7i ** 99 I 11 •^i'- V:] !^! I- ! .;■• Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ;<215o. Dill tile iM'ii|)li' t'viM' vdtc t(t repeal it ? — ^No, ynu I'luild not ijct a xote to r('))i'iil it. •Sl^lot). Tlieii leinjieriuicp sciitimt'iit wtis strongly in its fii\niii' iu'ie / — Yes. •■<'_'ir)7. I)o vdu look (in a license law as a sin ! No. ^VJloS. You (ill nut go tliat tar? — It may i)ea sin to some people, but not to otiiers. 3'_'1 ^){). I meant to you '/ - It dejx'nds on circumstances. If you lusked wluit [ think altout signing a man's a|)|)lication for a license, I woukl not say "yes." If it is a matter reiiuiiing the cai'.ying out of the law, I siioukl not think I connnitted any sin by carry- ing out the law. 32 1(50. I)oyou think it is a sin ti) have a license law ? We have had witnesses Ijefore the Connnission who have looked upon lieen.se as a sin ; we have even had wit- nesses who have declared that, as a choice l)etween the untrannnelled sale of litpior and the license law, they woulil infinitely prefer the untrammelled sale of li(|Uor, because they were not responsible for that sale. I would accept of nothing that would not tend to rttluce the evil. .'521(')1. Then if you could not get piohibition, you think it would be better to have a license law rather than unti'annnelled sale? Yes. It was tried in Michigan, but was not a success. .'{2162. Do you know whether such a system has ever been in force in any part of Canada ? — -No. 321G3. It is in force at the present time in Charlottetown, Prince Edwat'd Island, where the people have repealed the Scott Act and have issued no licenses'? — Indeed. 32164. In regard to the present cjuestion, we understand that you have prisons and asylums to visit and hospitals to inspect. Have you any reformatory institutions? — No, except the Women's and Orphans" Home. .'5216"). Then you have no refoi'matory for boys ? W(> had one, but we had no boys to reform and we turned it into another institution. 321()(t. Where is it ?-- At Brandon. 32167. For what j>ui|)ose is it used now?- For an asylum. 32168. You stated that you have no boys to rt^forni ? We kept it up for one year and only got one boy. 3216!). You also stated that one jail has been clost>d up; whei'e is that? — At Nee)>awa. .'52170. Is it the county jail? — It is a large building. 32171. For what purpose was it used? For the purposes of a jail. 32172. In what judicial district is it situated? — In the Central Disti'ict. 32173. Is it in one of the sections where the Si-ott Act was j)assed ?— No ; it i" situated in what was formerly a part of the North-west Territory, but which was added to the ]irovince. The people there were always in favour of th<> law. 32174. So the sentiment in *hat section was lai'gely in favourof that Act? — Yes. 3217'). Do you think that has any ell'ect on tla; connnunity? ^Vs an observing man, would you endeavour to enforce such a law l)efore there was a strong sentiment in its favour ?— Yes, before there was a large sentiment in favour of it. .32176. Have you considered the desirability of taking the sense of the people on this question, and as to whether the choice should l)e by a majority of votes polled or by a majority of votes on the voters list / — I ha\e thought over the (piestion. 32177. We find cases of tliis kind: Assume there are 4,000 names on the voters list. Of that number there would be jMilled at the Dominion election 3,000, and at a Scott Act election only 2,000? That is connnon and is tpiite explainable. 321 7H. It has been suggested that if, in order to adopt the Scott Act, a majority of votes on the voters list should be needed, instead of a bare majority of the votes i-ast, the people could hope for a much better enforcement of the law ? — Tliat is the way it is hrte. 32170. Have you a local option law ? Yes. We h ^ve no such re(|uirement as a majoi'ity, we have th(> two-thirds , but that is a very large majority of our municipalities. .32180. Is it the same system here as Mr. Mowat introduced into Ontario, allowing townships to vote on the question ? I tlo not know. Jo)jN W. SiFTON. lUO 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 th 3"J181. Tlie saiiio in rej^iird to imiiik'iiialitics ? In rci^iird tn iiuiiiiciiialitiL's, it is 11' SilllU lu-rc ; l)ut it is not a luajurity tliat is re(|iiii'tHl. ;)218"J. Doyiiu ii(»t Hiul tliat tin- sciitiiiitMit on that (|U('sti oliiliit I out' |)rovince e'cry to\\ n iias t;n en ainajofitv ion. .'ililSTi, 'riiorofore, you have more liojie now? I can ^ive cases when the Scolt Act was passed and the towi .ted f( ir It. .■)L'I8(). It has ))een contended that it would he well to adopt the system hy )alit wliicli each municipality eould sjieak f Territories in barrels of sugar and ri.e, ,Vc. I had several cases liroughi before miv !{2l8!t. There is nothing to prevent ]ieojile from laying in a private st( nipeg and taking it hoiiu; .' -No. W in- 31il'.H). Have y^u f">V suggestions to oiler to the ('oininission in regard to anv imendmeiit to the law?— No, i ha\'e n o siii'"''stions to oiler. T isi" law, lia\t'it here, seems to i)e as pertect as it can be made. It is amended from lime to d\ tune, and is always being iin]iroveil and is workii belti r. There is a very strong t ■iVort iiig made at tlu' present time to cnfoici- the law, stronger elVorts than lia\(^ e\er been made before. 3"Jllll. Taking the Doniinion as a whole and supposing the sentiment to be in fa\'oui' of prohibition as regards the .Maritime Provinces, the Province of <^>ucbee hold- ing the balance, ( )ntario beint; faMuirable, Manitoba sironu;l\ favoring and Ibitish Columbia strong ;ly o])p law under tho.se eircumstanees )osing it would you fa\(iiir the passing ot a general iirohibitory I lid f ii\ o'lr iiro •hibiti !!der anv I'lrcumslaiu'c .■$■_' 1!)L'. And you would lei each )ii'ovince take cari uf itself? My own idea is that the |)oiiiiiii(>!i Parliament should confer the 'lecessary power on the provinces to ai-t, for if they have not the p'.vver to act, it woc.ld li<' useless for them :•' tiv to carry out a pi )liibiti 32P,);{. i."l- vou in favour of IcLrislalion to carrv nut that v it ;gislMlion on that point : and it would settle all the dilliciilt ies on thai mal''r,i!.d settle all the disiHites. My own impression of the Scott Act is that its failure liere was on account of there b mg no proper provision made to I'arry it out. .■iLM'.tl. We understand that under t' e law the fines were iiiiiied over to the muni- cipalities in order to enable them to enforce tin vv 'se duty it was under tlii' .\ct to carrv it out. (I Act ? Y 1)11 I tl lere w as no otlieei Th le revenue otlicer retiised to c.iirv lit in every instance, and he was told by his su))eriors that he was not I'ompelled ti •.lo so, and that he must not take any risl. .'{L'PJri. Jjut there was no dillicultv, I believe, in th tlu Act?— N( (' local authorities carrving out .'{■itOfi. You may remember that in t)iitario the Provincial (Joverninent kept iiispe tors ill Scott .Vet counties for the express i)uriM)se of eiifoiciii|f the Act M""l Ik now 1 1 did. ''""1i;'.'5"Jlll7. Ill New Uriinswick the Legislature iiiiide |iro\ision in the same direction '. T would do away with that ditliculty here by making arrangements for the appoint in'-nt of otlicers to carrv out the Act. 101 i| Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 32198. Then you would favour the Provincial Legislature appointing officers to cairy out the law ? — Yes. 32199. Then I suppose you would be willing that the proceeds of the Scott Act fines should go to meet the expense of carrying out the Act ? — Yes. !^ er ; but as matter of morals, I say that they should compensate us for the souls and bodies ruined. It is time for us to ask compensation. 32227. In other words, you would not give them any compensation whatever] — I Would not. 3222S. Would you favour a pi-ohiiiitory law throughout the entire Dominion, irre- spective of the state of sentiment in the different provinces 1 In the event of the Mai itime Provinces being strongly in favour of proliil)ition, Queb(!C o[)posed toil, Ontai'io holding the balance, Manitoba in favour of it and British Columbia very strongly against it, would you, under those circumstances, favour the passing of a law for the whole country 't — Probably the law would be better carried out if it were l.mited to j)rovinces that were strongly in favour of it ; but T wftuld be in favour of passing a prohibitory law for the whole Dominion, simply Ijecause my observation has led me to believe, that while one man may believe in local option, twenty men believe in the total pi'ohibition of the sale and manufactui'e of li(ju(.)r. 3222!). What is your view of a license law? — I think a license law is wrong. The State has no right to license the tratHc. 32230. Do you look upon the sale of licpior as being so great an evil that the State should not license it ? — The sali; of liquor is an evil to the State, and the State has no right to license an evil. If the sale of litpior is not a wrong "hiiig, then the hotel- keepers and the saloon-keej)ers have no right to pay for the pri\ilegt^ of selling liquor. 32231. So there should either be untrannnelled sale or pi'ohibition, no half-way measure, I suppo.se? — That would be my personal o])inion, as a matt(!i' 7. And further that you would be able to get prohibition all the sooner? — A'Ui'U.'r objection to the license law is that it makes the thing respcclabli', and I am ir /re afraid of the r(!spectable saloon, foi- my boy, than 1 am nf the grog-^hoji. ■m (I be By /i>;v. Dr. Mr hod : 32238. What is the object of trade unions? It is to better the cdntlition of the workingmen so far as their ])articular trades an- concerrH'd. 32230. Do trade unions have any I'ules as I'eganls the use of ii<|Uipr ••ind drinking habits of members I — No. 32210. Do they encourage imn-drinking ? T think they do. 32241, Are many members of these societies in favour of pmhibition ? 1 believe that, as a rule, they are in favour of al)olishing the li(|uor trallie. 32212. Have you observed that the drinking habits of mtu'lianics ha\e greatly mterfered with their wage-earning power ? — Yes. 32213. Do you think there is a change in the drinking habits, and that they are uot as general among the mechanics as formerly ? Probably there is a change for the 103 ! I. K .;i^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. bettor, hut one thinj^ that I do know is that employers are Ijeginning to see, more so than formerly, that it is to their advantage to have sober men. 32244. Hf)\v (Joes tliat opinion manifest itself 1 — By sober men being given the preference. 3224."). You tliink they get tlie i)reference ? — They do. 32246. Take a mwlerate drinker, a drinker that takes something every day : is he placed in the same class as the total abstainer by his employer ?— I do not think so. 32247. Is he regarded as a reliable man '! — Yes ; but he is likely to break down any day. , 32248. Then it is not simply the man who drinks to excess, but also the man who has the drinkinj; habit ? — Men who drink to excess are on the lower grade. .32249. Then men who have the drinking habit are not looked upon by their employers as being eejual to total abstainers i — They are looked upon by their employers as risky. .■522.">0. Have you ol)served what proportion of time a drinking man will lose in a month (»n account of his drinking habits ; I do not mean the man who gets drunk, but the regular drinker ? — What is knt)wn as a moderate drinker may go on for years and not lose one hour of time ' Sss through sickness induced by liquor. 322ol. Have you noti t iiess to be so induced 1 — Yes, I know of it in my own case. Although a tot;.. dner now, I was not always so. I know I am not physically as good a man as I >v ;ti have been if 1 had always been a total abstainei'. •■522")2. You believe, in case of men drinking steadily, that while perhaps their wage- earning power may not be diminished seriously, they are of less value than total abstainers ? — Y''es. 322.'53. Then you think the licensed places are dangerous to drinkers ? — I certainly think they are. 322.")4. Take th(^ moderate drinker and any other drinking man ; do you believe a considerable number of them would be lessened if the licensed places were not so numerous and if workshops were not surrounded by them ? — I have been told that by scores. .322o5. l)(j you believe that prohibition would be a benefit to the country at large? — I do. By Judge McDonald : , 3225G. Can you name any employer of labour in this city who questions a man as to whether he is a total abstainer or not ? — I think the Canadian Pacific Railway enforces this rule in regard to their foremen and engineers while on duty. 32257. You think they have rules to that effect ? — Yes. 32258, Do you know any ordinary business in which the question is asked as to whether a man is a total abstainer or not ? — Not from my own knowletlge. .32251). And if an employer finds a man who through the use of intoxicating liquor is becoming incapacitated for work, he would deal with him of course. 32260. liut unless he was becoming so, he would not deal with him ? — No, as a rule they do not. By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 32261. Taking a man who is a total abstainer and a man who is a moderate drinker, do you think an employer would almost iavariably prefer the total abstainer ? — Yes, I believe the majority of employers in this city would do so. By Judge McDonald : . 32262. And if he did not ask the question when the man came to work, how could he know as to his habits '/ — They soon see whether a man is efficient or not. 32263. Then they do not mind what his habits are if he is erticient ? — No. 32264. Do you mean that a man who takes a glass of ale once a day is le.ss efficient than a man who is a total abstainer ?- — Y'^es, T believe he i % A man who dri:d\S beei', thinks beer. William Small. 104 as ay to uite 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 32265. I suppose your opinion extends to the man \vhotaieing binding upon the people : from our district meetings and our annual conferences year by year there is a deliverance on the (juestion in order to present it in the locality or within the bounds of the district. Sol should think that deliverance of the Oenei'al (/'onference may be said to be authoritative for the whole Church. 32293. Membership is not allowed to those who use liquor as a lieverage, I believe. What is the position of those who are connected with the manufacture of drink ! They are not allowed to do so. 32294. Then no person who is engaged in the manufacture or traffic is allowed to become a member of the Church ? —He is liable to expulsion unless he resorts to deceit. 3229.5. Then any one who was engaged in the traffic at the time he applied for admission would be expelled ? — Thatj is unless some unjust man in tlie locality should neglect or set aside the rules of the Church. 32296. The rules of the Church would not allow liiTn to be admitted into the Church as a member? — Quite so, I do not know of such an one who is a member in g(M)d standing of the Church ; I do not know any member of the Methodist Church who either Tuanufactures or sells liquor unless he may be a druggist who has r license. 32297. What is your ofunion in regard to the use of wine at the sacrament?— There has been a great deal of laxity on the part of our own Church, but that I think is being corrected. If you will allow me, I will give an instance that came under my own notice. When in the Province of Quebec, at Knowlton in Brome County, we had a man addicted to drink who came to the sacrament at the Church in the neighbourhoml. The duty of obtaining the wine was left with our recording steward. He went to the tavern and obtained a bottle of ordinary wine — the ordinary stuff they .sold there-; and when I presented to this man the bread betook it, and when I presented the wine he brnught it towards his face and in a very excited manner thrust it ba(!k in my face. He explained afterwards that he had been addicted to diink. He .said. " If I had put the goblet to my mouth I woukl certainly have had to swallow the contents." T then made a vow in my own mind that T would never again present to my people fermented wine. 32298. Speaking of that matter, which I know is a ((uestion that has often been discussed, I desire to ask you whether you know there are religious l)odies that will only give the communion with wine that is fermented? — Yes. 32299. Hiis it ever occurred to you that a man coming to the table for that purjiose may have strength given him that may not be given to him at othei' times, and in this way save him from falling into temptation ?- I do believe that. This man had only been \ery recently reformed, and I am sure the temptation was \ery strong. He was then fighting against the tiiirst for drink. I think it is within the privileges of our church officials te provide wine that will not have that effect. Since 1 resolved to provide wine of that kind to my people, I have been successful. T think it is nur jii-ivilege to preserve our people from partaking of fermented wine that dues not contain the intox- icating quality. Just as our families preserve the juice of the grape, 1 have been able to do it. •'!2.'500. May not a man have grace given to him at such a time as that to enable him to resist tenq)tation, which he might not be able to resist on another occasion !- — I do not know, but I admit that it might be possible. I think a man nuist receive grace from God to enable him to resist teinpt.itiitn on every occasidii. 32301. You sjtoke of the recording steward going to the village tavern and ])rocur- ing this bottle of wine. In your experience as a minister, have you found great ditli- cully in obtaining fermented wine of a pure character ? — Very great difficulty until we resoi'ted to the other means. 32302. Was there great difficulty in obtaining pure fermented wine / I never found it pure, so far as my judgment would go. I rememl)er that on one occasion, previf»us to this time to which I have referred, when the wine was provided -I do not know who secured it, but it was the official stewaril to the sei'tion - I tasted a little of it myself, as it was my privilege t submitted a little of that wine for analysis. It was analysed by th<' othcial analyst of the province and of the Dominion, who found that there was only lo p.c. of grape juice in the bottle. :V2'M\. What was the rest?! could not say. 32304. Apart from your expei'iences as a minister, living as you diil in Ontario and in a great many sections of the country, have you had reason to believe that in the rural disti'icts a great deal of adulterated stuff was st^UI at taverns for pure wine and pure lifjuor ?— Yes, I found that to be the case. When I lived in Hrampton, I was sixteen years old and was going to school there. There was a book-keeper employed by a wholesale and retjiil merchant. Of course, he had a large (|uantity of different kinds of liquor in the cellar. The book-keepei- was addicted to drinking strong drink. One day when I came down the street I noticed a numb(!r of peoj)le arouiul the establishment and also three physicians. They had found the book-keeper in the cellar, with a young lawyer. He was in the habit of taking oil of almonds to clear off' the effects of li(|uor (hwing the time he was at business. He took too much, and when he was called by the proprietor, did not appear. He occujned a room in the third story and one of the clerks ran up in a great hui'ry and fcund him in a dying condition. Before any of the physicians could reach him. he was dead. It was then found that oil of bitter almoncN, bluestone and strychnine were used in the adultera- tion of the liquor. 32.'?0r). Did you not Hud also in Ontario that many per.sons who purchased the compounds, sold under the name of li(]uors, were terribly affected by drinking them in small ([uantities ? — Yes. 32.'50(). They would become paralyzed, as it were ( — Y'es ; there was a time at Knowlton — I was there during three years -during which I never saw a drunken man but (jne, on the street, and he had not got the liquor within the town, but he brought it in froiii an adjoining town. After he had taken some of that liquor, he acted like a madman, nd he ultimately ilied. That is one instance. 323Ui . In regard to the main (juestion as to the liquor trathc, of course you favour prohibition .' — Yes. 32308. If the choice l,ay between licensed traffic and untrammelled .sale, which would you prefer? — In regard to untrammelled sale, I think that would be an extreme measure, I would rather have a license' system, but a license system has many diffi- culties about it. The officials who are supposed to look after the arrying out of the law are .so lax in their duties that if the system were adopted, it probal)ly would not be enforced. Of cour.se it would be very much better than untranmielled sale. I think the license .system should be amended, and the officials to whom we look for the carrying out of the law should be placed under propter bonds to do theii' duty. I have found that the officers of the law cannot do anything wrong before a court, and they are sworn to perform their dutii's. If they were compelled to carry out the law as they should do, I think it would be more satisfactory than it is at present. 32309. From your experience, do you think it would be well to make pi'ovision for a rigid and firm enforcement of the license law, and also inspection of li(|uors sold irnd as to their (|uality ? — I certainly do. 1 think the officers should be permitted, where there as is a (|uestion of illicit sale, to search the priMuises and conffscate the liquor. 32310. Would you favour the granting of compensation to brewers and distillers in the event of the enactment of a general pi'ohibitory law ? I do not think so. I answer that (juestion readily, because I have thought a great deal over that matter. T think any class of men who have invested their money in a business which they must know is very (|uestionable, inasmuch as so nmch harm arises from the traffic, and who more- over hold their licen.ses only from year to year, must be aware that if a prohibitory law ]{ev. John Sthwaht. 108 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 If a j)r(ilul)itury liiw slmuld oj)|Mirtuiiity (if di-aliiii,' with li(|Uor tnirtic in tlio district tak(>ii itii |)n>liil)itile to lose tlieii' capital, he enaeted, I tldnk the (Joveriiineiit sliould ^'ive them an their husiiiess and (h.sposiiij; of it in some way. ■'i^.'Hl. What is the state of atl'airs in re;.;ard to th( wliere yim now reside ? On May lOth, there was a v(»te municipality of South Norfolk. The vote stood, I think, between 40 rth- west of the municipality and Partaj^e la Prairie on the north-east. They tliou<;ht it would be sutlicient to jtublish it in the Portage paper and not in CarbiTry, but it was held that Carberry was nearer. On such a technicality, the decision of the election was reversed. There are no licenses in the town where we live; applicants cannot get licenses. 32312. How many votes were available ! — I think 1,000 for the district. 32313. And only 350 votes were given, I understand ? — I have only given the figures of the vote from memory. 32314. Was there a considerable absenc(M)f the voters from the polls? — From my statement it would appear so, but I must fall back on the facts, and I understootl from the municipal clerk that there was a very strong vote brought out. 32315. Of the vote that did come out, there was a very large majority in favour of local option ? — Yes. 32316. The feeling of the people is such that no licenses are granted ^— No license.? are granted at Treherne. 32317. Are there any licenses granted near by? — From time to time. When the local option was pas.sed ami before the issuing of the new license law, a hotel-keeper at Holland, about ten miles west of here, tried to obtain a license but has not succeetled yet. 32318. It is ten miles from your residence to the nearest tavern anil no licen.ses are granted. Do you think there is any illicit sale? — Not any to my knowledge, and none to any great extent. 32319. Are the peoj)le prohibited from bringing in liquor for their own personal use from other places? — I think most of the li(|Uor got in our town is brought in in that way. It would not pay them to sell liquor in quantities in view of the small sale within our town. 32320. How do you find the prohibitive provisions are can ''.k\ out in regard to closing on Sunday l — In regard to Sunday, I can say that there have never been any disturbances. However, I believe there has been liquor sold. The only time that licenses were in force since I went to Treherne was during six months. The issue of the license was in dispute, and when the (juestion of renewal came up in May or June, the town was turbulent and so disorderly that the ladies would not go on the street. 32321. Do you mean while the licenses wei-e in force ?- Yes. A small jail was built, but by the time it was finished with bolts and bars, licenses were refuised, and there has never been any person placed in it. 32322. Were they residents of the place who were so turbulent? They were parties who came in and got drink. A hoi-.se was ridden into the bar-room with two men on its back and a third trying to get on — they br'ought tin horse to the bar to treat him. Such conduct as that was enough to prompt the people to adopt some remedy for the evil. 32323. Would there not be a provision under the license law to enable the Inspector to bring up such a man for keeping a disordeily house? — I have no disposition to find fault with the officers appointed. The pi'incipal otiicer lives in this city, and it was pretty difiicult to get him there in time to deal with the case. That, of course, was the trouble. 32324. Who are his deputies? — I do not know that he has any deputies there; that is also a great trouble. 109 ■ : i 1 (■ 1 1 '■, ■ i -; 1 ,i, 1 i ■ 1 ! i l: p Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .■{:i.'{2"). Under tlie jircseiit licens«' law, do yuu think it W(»uld Iw well if tliere weiv otticci-s appointed in tlie outer diHtiiets who could report and act with their chief in Winnipe;;'/ — T do. I5'_';{'J(). Some otHcePH appointed who would have power to act? — I tliink that woulil Ih- a g[ioint a license inspectoi'. Tlu^ municipality has to appoint an officer and pay his salary and the people do not wish to pay a man's salary foi' such little work. There is another ditKculty that exists. While tlu?re are temperance people, as a rule the nuijority do not wish to pay any man .^oOU for working to that extent for the municipality. If the duty was entrusted to the Justice of the munici])ality of appointing an officer, who at the same time might he connected with some other office, such, for instance as that of head constable, in that way they would be able to raise the money, and the difficulty would be removed. By Jiev. Dr. McLeod: Wl'^'ll. How does prohibition work in ytjur district? — I think my answer to a similar (|uestion was, as well as we could expect under the circumstances. 32.S28. I did not know that that answer applied to the feeling at the provincial election, but rather to prohibition in other places ? — -Yes. .Sl'32!). Are you able to say anything difl'erent about the feeling in Manitoba, where you have lived and had experience of it? — I have an opportunity of judging of the feel- ing here. I am connected with a very hirge temperance lodge, with the (Jood Templars, and I have an oj)j)ortuuity of gauging the sentiment of 150 mend)ers. My pastoral duties extend to Holland, a town west, which I attend to as well as Treherne, and I know the sentiment of the people there, anfl the large majority are in favour of temper- ance principles, and I believe would be in favour of prohibition. 32330. What is the name of the polling district? — ^Treherne. 32331. Do you remember, if the vote rendered there was strongly in favour of pro- hibition ? — Yes. 32332. Do you think that vote fairly represented the feelings of the people? — I do, and also the intelligent action of the people. 32333. It was not done in a panic? — No, I think it is rather too hard on the inhabitants of Manitoba to say that we are an unthinking peoj)le. 323.34. You have lived neai' Vermont? — Y^es. 3233o. Did you have the opportunity of observing prohibition in the State of Ver- mont ? — No. 32336. Then you are not able to speak with definiteness on thiit fioint ? — ^I do not think, from what I do remember, that they were a reckless drinking people in that State, or we would have known something about it. I lived in the Eastern Townships, near the boundary line, for lo years. 32337. The Conunission has liad the testimony of a gentleman in the Eastern Town- ships who travelled through V'ermont a good deal, and who stated that prohibition had met with a good deal of success, and I thought, perhaps, you had also visited the State? — I have been across the line. I was impressed with the Ik w there, but I would not wish to say anything about it, because I am not posted. 32338. Have you had an opportunity of comparing a community under a license law with one under prohibition, and if so, what is the result of your comparison ? — I have been in .seven ditlerent places within the three provinces where prohibition has been in existence in one form or another, and I have found in every ca.se that it was beneficial, that it was against the drunkard and in favour oP peo[)le who were in favour of temperance. 32339. You have stated that you have found a great deal of trouble arising from intemperance. Have you found that the drink trade has been an inteiference with your work as a christian worker? — Yes, in this way : I find that a man taking strong drink does not attend Divine service, and I do not often have a tavern-keeper or a rum- seller in my congregation. In conference with other ministers, I have found that their experience have been very similar to my own. In regard to habitual drinkers, I find Rev. John Stewart. 110 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 that they absent thfiiiselvcs from stTviw and do not attend for some time, and tlien tliey take heart and return to service. It is a flitliL'ult matter to ajuiroach a man who is a habitual drinimpted as they are now in any community where the license system exists. I think that the legalization of the drink trade gives the people a right to uphold it; they are i-eady to defend themselves, and they chink becaust^ they have paid numey for the privilege of selling. "* 32341. From your thirty yeai-s' experience in pastoral work over a very large area of country, have you ob.served whether, to any great extent, the drink trade and drink habit are the causes which lead to crime, immorality, jxivorty, neglect of women anut still it had that effect. 32342. Do you believe that enforced j)iohibitiim would greatly benefit the country, economically and morally? — I do. If the Government granted prohibition, tlu;y could carry out the law if they would honestly endeavour to do so. 32343. You are speaking ai)out enforced prohibition? — Yes. The ([uestion has come up in my own mind: Would there not be great difficulty in working the law ? Then I have thought that if li(iuor were prohibited throughout the country, and its manufacture prohibited, it would not be so difficult to work the law. The only sources of trouble would be smuggling and illicit trade. At the same time, I am sure the revenue officers would be able to look after that, as they look after the drink under the license system. DUNCAN McAHTHUR, Banker, Winnipeg, subm! ', statement : — WINNIPEG, M.VMTOHA, • \ the following written 24lli October, 1.Slt' set \>\ the late and tlic pifscnt LitHitcnant-iinvci'nui' iif tins frovint't' in aliolisliing tlic nsi- of all li({Ulaiit. ric. Tlic fjipitul iincstrd in di'^tiilci'irs, IiitwitIi's, cidi'i' mills and liuni'llin;,' ('stalili-n that there is much intemperance among your men ? — Very little. ;32."5r)7. Have you noticed aiiy difference in the capacity of your men as between men who do not take liijuor at all and men who take it in moderation ? —I have not noticed that in any way. We may have some men who probably take a glass sometimes, and I may not know about it. ;}2358. Then it is not noticjable to you on the part of men in your employ ? — t^uite so. 113 21—8** ■!M|' ■ ■fn ^ Ijquor Tratfic — Manitoba. .'{•2.'>")!\ Have you lived in a eouiitiy wIkmv jirnhihitioii is in force? — I lived iii iMissis(|U()i when the !>uiikiii Act was i.i t'orcf. ;?:2.'{('>0. How was it ("iit'oiveil tlitie?--T can only ,i,'ivi' my inipivsHion as a y; in tlie village wheri- I lived under license than there was while the Ounkin Act was in force. .■ f')r some time. .■{:.'.'?()7. Have vou noticed whether the driid< hahit affects the wage-earning power of an average employee ? When 1 say the drink hahit, [ do not mean excessive drinking, hut the drink hahit regularly indulged in, with more or less moderation - for modera- tion is a very elastic term. ^ ask tiiat whether you ]ia\e noticed tliat in the long run, workingmen from year to year who have indulgei' in the drink habit, lessen their wage-earni,.g power ? 1 have probably not observeil tliat condition very closely, but 1 should think they would do so. ■'{'J-'Ulf*. Doe.s the license system suit your views as an employer ? — Of course that would depend a great ileal. Tf a man who drinks l)e a clever man, we might under certain circuiustances retain him, so long as he did not diink to excess, nf course if we found him drinking to excess, we would drop him. .■?2;5()0. Then you look upon this matter from j)iwel\ business jrineiples? Yes. H2."<70. Are most of youi' employees skilled mechanics or ori'inary workingmen? - The majority are skihed. ."5237 I. !■ > your men work in gangs, and does any ])art of the work re(piiri' a certain number of men to cany it on? -Yes. .'52372. Have you evei' found that the (h'inking hal»it of one man will interfere with the working of the wliole gang ' Yes. 32373. ]s that the reason why you will not have drinking men? — T have never had that experience. 32.371. If you had .a gang of six or eight nien and one was a drinking man and was regular at his work, would that he an inteiference with the working of the others \ — Not with the way we ai'range the work. We always calculate to hav ■ a du[)licate. We run our business on that i)rinciple. .32.37."). Still you would get ritl of a man of that sort, I sujipose ? — Yes. 32.37t). Speaking about your observation of the Dunkin Act, T understand you to say that .some years have passetl since you were there ] — It was over ten years ago. 32377. Do you think tlu> prohibition of the li(|Uor traffic by the Dunkin Act or similar enactments really induce drunkenness? - No, I would not like to .say that, but 1 regard the Dunkin Act as a farce. 32378. Is it not a fact that there may Ije .some defects in the appliances for its enforcement ? — Tliere may be. Freukiuck W. Thomp.son. lU 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1804 lil ■? __ h'tiiiii with irlm.l iuid IlKM-S l peate. loll to let <»r Ihut 1 L)r its .■$2.S79. Or iiuUfterciifc on tin' part of otlieials. Perhaps \ou do not remember?- I do not renieiiilx'r. :t2.'{fin Act ! -Yes. .32.SiSl. Was it less easily oljtainahlc under tiie license law than it was uinlei' the J)unkin Act ,' There was i uore '.'•enera 1 sol )rietv. .■}2.'{^J. Woukl it i)e hecause in the oiu' case men "et the drink rei-'ularlv and in the other there were spurts of (h'unkennei It may I .■5'_':{S."$. Do you hold that under a ])roliii)itorv enactment a man i;ets ilrink only once in awhile, whereas under the license law then- is more rei^ulai' drinkinf; ? -Of course, it is very dilhcult for me to answer that ijuestion. .■|2;iS4. There is the other fact, that whe n a couhuuni'y is under proli ihiti drunk'Mi man stands out very noticeably, whereas that is not the ca >' when the com lity is under license law and men are allowed to drink. Of course y ou w< add mu- notice drunkenness in a ijrohibition counnunity when we would not be struck by it in li license comnmnity ' n a p -My own opinion of prohibition as atjainst lici •use s, that the verv fact that it is made dithcult to obtain liipior, would lead to j;reater demoiali/.ation, to ^'rcater ci'ime iind breaking of the law. .■(•J.'JS,"). Do you attribute the sobiiely of Winnipeg to the fact that the drink trade i.s licensed in the city ? — We have not had ])rohibition here, and it is pretty hard tf» judge of tiie law. ' .S2.'{S6. Then you cannot coi.ipare the two? — Comnmnities may be difl'erent, and tl lere n lav be ditierent classes of peoi ;i"_'l587. Would you .-ittriljute the sobriety of Winnipeg to the facilities th.it are p ro- vided foi" piircha.-(ing drink, if a man i'j disposed to get (h'ink ; or would you atti-ibute the sobriety to other intlueiiccs that have operated on the p(>ople, so that they refrain from drinking? I would jirefer to give my impression as to the general sobriety of W tht ,-lr iinipeg more ti'om tlie staiul]>onit ot general prosperity. J i)elieve tliat wliere community is generally prosperous the people attend in a larger degree to sobriety. .■urely business (luestion, and I ask the (juesiion from yor purely as a business iiHin ? -I have not made a study of it. 32392. As to compensation : you think the brewers and distillers mii;ht well be compensated if prohibition were enacted. Suppose in the change ''e are not paying a license. Rev. Dr. MciiEOI). That places you in a srronn r position, for the brewers and distillers pay licenses simjily for twelve months and i: the end of twehe months they may go out of business. .Ifiniic McDonald. .Nor does the law reipiliv you to provide a certain kind of material or apparatus. Bi/ AVr. Dr. McLeod: 32394. The (juestion of trmh' is one that embraces all countries. Of course, in tlu^ e\ent of a prohibition law being made general throughout the Dominion, it would have no effect on the manufacturing interests of other countries. So it may be stated that the plant might be removed to another country and brewers and distillers might have the opportunity of carrying on there, as a legitimate business, a iiusineas which then would lie shut out here? Is it not a fact that every busine.ss man takes risks when he invests his capital? — That is true. 115 lb I 'li I I X\ w- '! 1 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 3239"). He takes risks in r('},'ai d to tlie (.•han<,'ps in tlie tariff and other matters 1 — Take our own business : we iniglit have to adjust our business to meet tlie clianj^ed con- ditions of the tariff. 3'230G. Of course tiiat would involve loss? -It would involve loss, and we niif^ht be coni]ielled to reduce our wages or to reduce the cost of our raw matei'ial. We might not be driven out of the business, but at all events, we might be compelled to meet the changed conditions. 3'2307. Do you think that if employees were compelled to accept reduced wages tiiey would also have a fail' claim for compensation, or if the fai'mers were compelled to take less jjrices for their raw material, they wou.d also have a fair claim foi' compensa- tion? — If the market failed owing to the changed ccmditions, 1 do not think that would apply. 32398. I will not press tin; (|Uestion further, but T thought you had gi\en some thought to it as a business man, and I only put this ([uest.on because it might seem to some people that all these things are on the same footing ; and if there is any ililier nee, the di.stillers and brewei's might not seem to have the same claim, because tneir business is different from the others in this, that it is subject to restrictions and subject also to license from yeai" to year, and they have to obtain authority from year to year to con- duct their busines.s, whereas your business goes on without any special authority, no one denying your right? — Yes. By Jiuh/e McDonald : 32399. Your business, of course, niiglit be closed by the enactment of a trade law. Supposing the Dominion Parliament passeil a law directing that you should not m inu- facture tlour for the future, would you noi consider that Parliament, as representing the country, should remunerate you? — I should certainly do so. 32400. It must be remembered that we are not sjieakini; now of the results of legis- lation iniiirectb , but of legislation directly, at a pfju'ticular business with a view nf sup- pi'essing it, and , Massachusetts. Tliere was local option there. .■{■J411. Wa-i it continued from year to year by tiie vote of the ])ec»ple ? — Yes. 32ir2. How iaige a phice is it (-—The jjopidation is 5,000. •■V_'41."i. Is it a township or a town ? — It is a town. -■i'-'tll. Ts it g(j\eriied l)y a Mayor and Council, or by Select Men? — Neither. .■5l'415. Wiio governs the atl'airs of tlie town? — Tlie men are more like Commis- sioners. 324 10. Do you hold a town's meeting? — Yes. 32417. How was prohibition carried ? — Jiy the vote of the jieojile. .'5241(^. Is a vote taken of necessity every year ? — No, every third year they have a right to repeal the law ; but it was never repealed while T v.as there. 32419. Did the law w(.rk well ? ^Yes. 32420. Did it work well in regard to the sale of licjuor? — There were occasionally breaches of the law. 32421. You have stated that the population was aliout 5,000 ; how large would the territory he? Would it be oiu' mile each way? — It would pi'obably cover three and a half miles or three miles s(juare. 32422. How was the law in that section nt' the i-oi'.:itry adopted ? —It was in con- nection with license. 32423. So the people could bring it in or iiui, according to their own desire? — Cer- tainly. 32424. Could the people bring in liquor for their own use / -Certainly. 32425. Then, prohibition would not pri-vent the sale and keeping foi' sale t' liquor? — There was a hotel license. 3242G. What were the difficulties you encountered in ;;arryiiig out the law?— The only difficulty we ever encountered was illicit sale. 32427. By whom was it carried on? — By houses of prostitution, generally. 32428. What class of people went into these houses to get liposing such beer as you made was the only beer used, would you be satisfied to have it used ? No. 32401. You would do away with it? — Yes, I think it is harmful. 324(52. Is it harmful from every point of view? — Yes. 324C.'5. So when you speak of the beer being puri% you mean the compounds were pure? — Yes. .'52404. Did you go out of the business before you left England ? — Yes. 32405. Did you become convinced of the wrong of it? \ did, it was a wrong all the time I was in it. .'52400. Did that strike you while you were in it. It did. 32407. Do you consider you were the cause of injury to your fellow men ? — I do. Andrew Dykes. 118 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 32468. How long were you in this state of mind before you gave up brewing ? — For at least two years out of the three. 32469. Then you gave it up ? — I did. 32470. So really it was a matter of conscience that compelled you to gi\f up the traffic ! — Yes. 32471. And it was done by your own act, not by any l<'i;islation .' — Quite so. Speaking i>i prohibition we had an instance in this city. 32472. What was that? — It was doing away with the license of the London Hotel near the Canadian Pacitic Railway. The Canadian Pacific Railway employees largely p(!titioned against granting the license, and the people in the neighbourhood also did so ; and the license was not gi'antcd. There was no compensation given to the man, not- withstanding the fact that the license was taken away, and h(^ was right in tiie city of Winnipeg. 32473. What was taken away from him ? —The license. 32474. What else? — If you take away tlu; license he has nt) riglil to sell spirits and li(pu>rs, and when he lost that, the house had to shut up. 32475. Have you any suggestions to inakt; to the Commission, from your experience if the license law is to be kept in force ' I would as to imj)ro\ements in the license law have all laws enforced. 32470. Do you think the law is not enforced at ))resent ? — Uecidedly not. 32477. In what way? The law in Manitoba, as it stands, is a good law if it were well enforced. 32478. You think, then, the officers do not enforce it ? — No, there is no officer appointed to enforce it, or rather there is only one. 32479. Of course then, he has too heavy work to perform .' -Yes. 32480. Do you think the proper cour.se would be to have more 0. What is your Ijusiiiess or occupation ? —I am a wholesale nierchaiit, and T iiave in connection with my business a licpior department. 32.12 1. As a grocer, you ai'e enries was, of course, limited. 32538. Have you made the license law in force her'e a stuJy as to its provisions? — Not as to its provisions. 32539. Have you studied the question of prohibition? — t havt; thought a good d(!al .ihout it. .32540. Are ■. ou favourable nr unfa\uural»le to it .' I am unfavourable to enforced [irohibition. 32541. Unfavourable to a l.iw tha* .voukl j)rohibit the manufacture and sale of li(|Uoi' for beverage pui'jioses ? — Yes. 32542. From your experience and ob.servation, do you believe such a law could be pjissed and practically enforced ? -No. 32543. In case such a law should be pass.d, do you think remunt laiion should be made to brewers and distillers for the loss of their plant and machinery ? — Certainly I do. t think if the public wish to make ex])eriments of that kind they should be carried out at the expense of the public. I think the business of brewing has been carried on so long, and with other sinular businesses existed so long, that they ought to be respected. I irii ! -i : Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 32r)44. Have you ever tnivj-llcd in Fnincc ? Yes. 32545. Have you noticed the customs of the jx'ople in reyarcl to (lrinkin>{ alcoholic liquors ? — My stay in France was a short one, and I am not able to express an opinion in regard to *',e matter. .'$2540. The Commissicjii would be glad to receive any suggest i< ins you could offer in regai-d ty the licensees? — I could not answer thai ([uestion. 32553. It has been in evidence, so fur as Winni[ieg is concerned, that there are very general violations of the prohibitory ])i'ovisions. 1 refer to the provisions respecting sale after hours and on Sunday .' I have seen nothing of it myself, but I could not say it was not .so. 32554. You have expres.sed yourself as being in favour of high licen.se. Why do you favoui- high license ? — I think the tendency to reduce the number of pectple engaged in the business and to reduce the nund)er of people who are authorized to sell licpior, is to caust! licensees to endeavfiur to carry out the law, because no doubt a man who pays a very high license will, for his own defence, be obliged to see that people who do not hold licenses are not selling li(|uor. It would be a matter of business with him. 32555. Do you think the licensees would become informers in that case? — T do not know what steps would be taken, but I think high license wouhl tend to prevent the illicit sale of liijuor. 3255(). It has been held by some peojile, that high license, instead of preventing illicit sale, would probably lielj) it, for this reason ; A man who pays a high license occupies a high class [)lace and attracts the better class of drinkers, but there is a cer- tain class who will not resort to such j)laces, they want humbler places, and they will freiiuent places seven feet by nine feet. High licen.se, instead of interfering with illicit sale, w()uld simply cause such small places to be started, because there will be a demand for them by the lower classes ? — I do not think there is anything in that argument. The am(junt of trade from the lower classes, to which you refer, would warrant one or more places, according to the population, but the business would probably be as profit- able, although better conducted, as it is at present. 32557. What ire the advantages of having a few jilaces engaged in the trade? — I think they would be better conducted ; there would be higher classes of saloons and hotels — the business usually operates in that way. 32558. Hav(> you known of a high license law being successfully carried out in any place? — My experience has been very limited. (tEOUGE F. Gault. 122 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 are do IS nut the L-(Mise cer- will Illicit iiiind lient. le or Kitit- I?— I and any ■'SlT)")',). The sugj^cstioii has imeii niado to raise the |irii'f ot' drinks ? ^'es, I ccr- tainly would do so. 32060. Would that shut out cortaiii persons t'l'oni ^^cttin;; drink? I think it would tend to prevent indiscriminate drinking, which is doing a great deal of injury and which has heen a great evil. JilT)))!. Is the high class bar-room a prctmoterof treating, or does it deterdrinking '. — I think it deters it to some extent. '^'I'AVl. l)o you tliink high class places lead men to go in and take what is called a "soldier," or do they go in groups,' — -Very often they go in i)airs , but that is not what I meant by indisi-i-iminate treating; I meant tiie pratice, whieli used to la^ in \<>j,'ui', of inviting people who happen to Im^ present to diink. That practice is dying out. .'52r)().'i. in raising tlie price of liquoi', has it occurred to you that it miglil i)e legis- lating against the pool' man, who miglit claim that he had as much right to unkin Act it was iliHicult to decline ollei's to drink. If it wore more ditlicult to avoid drinking wliere the trade is illegal, w!iy i.s it less ditlicult to declint? where the trade is licensed ? — I have found in such places a great deal of bitter feeling and ill-feeling prevailin;;- in the comnui'iity. The connnunity in such cases becomes divided into two classes, those who rebel against the law and those who want tin; law enforced. It is veiy dillicult to avoid biMng on c>!ie side or the otlu^r, and the man who is a moderate di-inkei', or rather takes a drink when he feels inclined, cannot very well join in with tlu' total abstainers, and therefore it is more ditlicult for him to avoid dr'inking when he is asked to di'ink. ;{2r)().">. r)o you think it right that people who desire total proliibition should sul)mit to those who are against it ? -I think any one who makes a nuisance of himself, or who is disorderly, should be punished. H(>spectable peojih^ should be ]irotected, ami the law should impose sutlicient penalties to suppress an improper state of things. ."{^oOO. Can you state further anything in regard to prohibition in the North-west Territories? Prohibition in the Territoi-ies, from all 1 have seen and heard, led to excessive drinking. The people did not know what moderation was at least a great many did not. When a person obtaineil a supjily, amounting to two oi' three gallons in a keg, it would almost at once be consumed. When a p 'I'.son obtaiiu'd liquor there on a perniit or by having it smuggled, he invited his friends and t!iey drank to excess. That was my ex])erienc(* up there. '■V1^)C)~ . Was not the power of issuing permits iiidi.scriiiiiiiately exercised? — 1 do n(.t think s(j. I think it was rather ditlicult in son'e cases Ic, get permits. 32508. According t(j the ofHcial retui'iis, the (piantity increased very rapidly, fiom 0,000 gallons in 1SS3, to 15,000 gallons in 1890, and the poj)ulation did not incr»'ase in that ratio ?-^- In 1883, we iiad no connnunicatif)n with the North-west. TIk; settler in the North-west lived a three or four weeks' joui'ney away from any place, and could not get liquor, and so I suppose it was not consumed in those eaily days, sitiqily l)ecause it could not be obtained. 3250!). You have said that Winnipeg is an exceptionally soljer place: what makes Wi\Hiipega sober [)lace ? — I think the |)eople of the city are above the average. They are all nearly busily occupied. 325<0. Do you think the licensed trade contributes to the sobi icty of the city/ 1 do not know exactly. The sale o"' li(pior(loes not contribute to the s)bi'iety (if the place orotherwi.se; ja'obably tluM'e would be moi'c or less abuse of li(|Uov if we had not the license system as at [.>resent. 32571. Y'^ou are led to believe that from what knowledge? — From my experituice in the North-west Territories and all T have leai-nt and seen in the east. 32572. I beliBve you did not favoui" prohibition in the North-west Territori«'s at tl e outset? — I am no, sure that it was not a good thing at the outset. I am rather inclined to think it was. 32573. What were the conditions ? — A sparsely settled coiinti'y with a large terri- tory. During the building of the railway thousands of men were employed, and it was 123 I ; ^m ifl I Liquor Tiuffic — Manitoba. |)i'()liiiltly an advantii;;!' to keep li(juor away from iheiii. T kmnv we all felt at thn time that siicli wiiH tlic cast'. .'?2r)74. Would tilt' introduction of litjuor have created disturbances? -I tliiiik if you iiave three oi- four thousand workinj^nien toju'ether and allow them to obtain as iiiuc-h li(|Uor as they want, it has that tendency. .'{lT)?.'). 'I'lierc^ are a ;{ood iiumy thousands of men in \\'inni|»e<; /md there is |)ro- vision made for them to i;et li(]Uor liere ; do(^s it liave the same tendency/ — No, tiiey liave their homes and their settled ficcupations, and of course it is did'erent. .■JlTiTC). I)id you find any dillerenee in the licjuor trade in th(^ North-west during the j)rohibition jieriiMl as compared with now, or does not your trad(^ extend into the North-west f— Yes. '■\'2'>n. Were your sales laif^er then than now? — They have been larger undei" the license system, that is west of here. .'S^^TH. Was the great bulk of liijuor that was sent into the North-west during pro- hibitory years smuggled in, carried in through illegal channels acrross the border, an'.». Would you favour tlu; establishment of inebriate asylums in w hich tho.se respectablt^ and unfortunate peoi)le could be taken care of'! — Yes. .'5J()U0. That (juestion was asked of one witness who appeared before the C'onnni.s- sioM, who said lie would favour the establishment of inebriate asylums if tiiev were used t() incarcerate the men engaged in the trade. What is your opinion / I do not tliiiik so. It is about as sensible as some other suggestions I liav(( hcai'd. 3J(')0I. Do you think it would be well for the Government to provide inebriate asylums for the care of those who, by reason of their drink habit, are unable to take care iif themselves, and who come before the police coui'ts and go to jail and afterwards again appear in court .' — Yes, 1 think it would. ."{lidUL'. Would you make the care of those inebriates a charge against the trade : that is supposing it creates those men'? — I think tile trade already contributes the bulk of the taxes of the country, and some of tlie money might be ]irotitably expended in that way. .'VJt)0.'5. Does till' trade or the jieople who support the tradi; contribute tiie bulk of the taxes ,' - No doubt the consumer pays the taxes of course it goes back to him. •S2()04. There was a plebiscite in .Manitolia a little while ago ; do you "egard the result of the poll as being significant ,' - No. .S'JGO-). For wliat reasons '/-I think experience has shown that such a vote could be carried anywliert; where the people have not had any experience of the two systems, and experience lias shown that such an Act could not- be carried where the people iiave had experience of tlie two systems. 3:2GU(). Is that strictly correct i — Perliaps it is not strictly correct, but it is ahiiost entirely the case. .■5l'()07. Have you noticed that in Maine theyliave had a prohiliitory law during 40 years and after it was repealetl, it was re-enacted, and tiieu ran on more or less for 25 125 1 'i ■ 1 I. i l; liiquor Traffic — Manitoba. yt'fii"'^, iiiul tlif ]M'(i|>lf ilicn look it tVoai tlic statutt'liook mid |itil it in tin- dmstitii- t ion of tlic Stiilc liy II niiijorily of .'tO.OOO, 'I'licic is ;i ciisf wImtc tliti |ico|iir had cxiif- rit'Mcc of |)i'oliiliit' in for ii •,'cnfi'!ition andllicy ntill were in fiivour of iiloptin^ it. Iowa furnislitMl iinollicr illustnition of the sanic kind .' l liavc alwiiys iindci'.stood tluit li(|Uor can I)*' liiid in tlioHt> States, and so Ion;; as lii|iioi' can Wo had, the iieoplc who want, it will not I'aisf any ^rcat olijection to any law, iiowcvcr nnicli it was attfm|itcd ttj Im onfoiri'd. 3■J(iO^<. l)o you think a law in oi-dcr to lie a success, nnist In- alisolutclv cnforci'il ( —Yes. .SJ()Oi). Is thi'i'c any law al»solutfly cnforcod ? Porhaps 1 coidd answer that (|ues- tir)n liy saying' liiat any othfi' law would not he tla^'rantly violated. .HL'tllO. If a law is \iolated nioi'e oi' less, and even if there is a eonsiderabln pm-cent- afje of violations, is not that a proof of the value of the law / It depends on what the crime is and what tlii^ infractions ui'e -it depends on whetiier it runs a;;ainst the com- mon .sense of the people. '•\'2i\\ 1. As a mattei' of fact, is there any law. moral or civil, that is ahsolutely en- forced and ohsiuved '. I suppose there is no law that is not liroken occasionally. .'i'JOl'J. You would not repeal all laws if they were not thoi'ou;.'hly ohserved liy the people as a whole, if they were enacted for tin? general >;ood of the ^'reater nund)er I cannot associate a proiiihitory law with any other law ; there is rn> similarity to my mind hetween such a law and another law. .■Jl'Cii;!. ^'ou are opjiosed to prohiliition on inisiness principles, I suppose? — No; I have always been opposed to it, even when 1 was not in business. ■JliOli. Would not your personal interests influence more or less your views ? — No, I do not think .so ; they would not influence my views at all. Bi/ Judye McDonaJd : '.\:H\]'). You have never made a study of the Maine law personally? No. y^tild. Do you know that under that law people may obtain all the li(|Uor they wi.sh for bevera^'e jiuiposes so long as they do not buy it in the State? — I do not know much about the Maine law, but T have heard thdt lifjuor was distributed freely in M. '»" ■'{■_'(11 7. The prohibition of the manufactui'c, importation aiul sale of into.vicatm;;' be\era;,'es is. therefoi'e, something different from the Maine law, for under that law liipior is allowed to be imported so long as it is not sold oi' kept for sale, t»nly for per- sonal use, in a person's own cellar or elsewhere, as is the case under the Scott Act. Could you, if you were dealing with the <|uestion and making a comparison with the Maine law, comjiare it with total prohibition : or would you not have (o go on a diller- ent platform entirely in dealing with the case ? — I am not a believer in total prohibition. .'5"_'018. In dealing with the matter, what views might influence [leople in tiit^ viola- tion and in the observance of such a law, if it were in force ? Would you hope for a better enforcement of a law which jtrohibited merely local sale and keeping for sale, the jieople in the meanwhile being able to obtain li(|Uor from outside, than u|ii«iii |>i'ii|iiliiiiriii mii^lit imt at that very tiiiir luixr liiiimrs in tliric cellars for tlii'ir uwn n> tlllMII lid SI I. I I iiiiK a ;'iiiiil inaiiv i> .■(■_'<):.'■_'. Wiiiiid tl'i'V sii|i|iint Ji ]iinliil)itniv law tliat iliil mil all'i'i'l tin I tliiiik tlifV wiiuld 1)1' tircil nt' siicli a law M'IV smm, it' I licir iiiiivfiiiciils won- prrinaiii'iitiN iiiliT- fert'd with. .'i:i(i°_'|{, W'liuld lliat lia\t' tin* cUt'i't nt' making such a man's actimis si|iiari' with his priifcssiiiiis ? I think they could not advocate it. .'Si.'')'-' I. W'l' aic told tliu in Scnlt Ai't ccumiics in si unc cases |ieo|ile sii|i|Hirl the Huott Act, hut at the same tniie they have what liiiuur they wish in their own cellars? -I undei'stand that is the case many a tim :{2(('_'5. IJllt Ihcv feel it to 1): )e a ;;iiod Mini;; not to allow li(|iioi to ll< nei;;liltours or exjioscd for sah? ? I ha\e ;;reat ciinteiiipt for such |ieii|ili .'{•_'()■.'(). If those men found a law was to he siilimit ted to |ire\ent tli il to their I'etlin;' "I* that way, win restrict their own su|i| tl lid ihey take the same line of action when the jii'(i|iosal was to illes l>v I mill ;;reat many would im i douht vote aitainst |wo hihit ion it Dy I ml lot. you think there is a ;ireat deal of hollow support of the law- Yes. I ley ciiuld do so " .•iL'tlL'T. Do think a man is ol)li;,'ed to take one side or the other in the community. .'JlJCi'JH. Aliout illicit sale in places where there is prohiliit ion : do you think a j;eneral prohihitory law would prevent it to some extent ( Would those men sell if there was no demand by the people (rndouhtedly there is a demand. Hi/ Rev. Dr. .UrLiod: .'1262!). Should there be a provision hy Statute for every thinu; demanded liv the peojile or hy any section of the people ? — It depends on the reasonableness of the demand. liy Jiiihji' McDonald : .S2()30. Take the classes of men to svhom you referred, those for whom you thought it would be proper to jiro vide inebriate asylums, persons who cannot restrict themselves: take a community in which there is a large percentage of such people, whicli would be the faiier course to adopt— to take liipior away from the vast bull: of the }io]iulation who use it legitimately and moderately, or prohibit it altogether, in order to put it out of the way of men who should not get it, or place persistent drunkards in asylums and leave the others with their liberty / I think men addicted to drunkenness are suflTering from a disease. I do not think they should be classed with men who take a glass of beer or spirits in moderation. .■$26.'U— '52. Do vou find that this business is different from all other businesses? —Yes. WITNESS came forward at a subseiiuent stage of tlie proceedings, and said ; I wish to withdraw a statement I made this morning, without giving it sutlii'ient consi- deration, and I do not wish it to go on record as part of my statement without any expla- ation. The examination led up to the ijuestion of inebriate asylums, and tlie w.'iy in which they should be supported. I believe T said that they should be supjiorted at the jiublic expense. I had never given the (luestion such consideration as would enable me to give an intelligent opinion on il. I would not object to express an opinion if T had fully considered the matter ; but that is a large question and reijuires no doubt full (con- sideration, and therefore I do not wish to go on rijcord as having expressed an opinion that those asylums should be established and supported at the pulilic expense. ( l.i! ^n I ill iJi 127 2SiS^3^^n laf^uor Tratfic — Manitoba. \VM. as follows U. MULOCK, y.C, of Winnipeg, Barrister, on being duly sworn, deposed By Judge McDonald : .'VJ().'i."{. How long have you resided in Winnipeg? — About 10 years. .■}2(K)4. J h 'ieve you previously lived in Toronto / — Yes. 326.^0. Did you live in Ontario when a prohibitory law was in force ?-^Niit that I can recollect. ;52().'U). Since you came heie, have you noticed a change in the social customs of the peoples in I'egard to the use of intoxicating li(|uor? — 1 have. '•VliVM. Did you notice similar changes befoi-e you left Ontai'io, going Itack to the earliest recollections you have, as to the quantity of wine used ? — I think there was a steady iniprovcment. ."VJC:}!^. l)o you lind less wine now used at social gatherings and ulsory? — I cannot see tliat they observe it at all. 32(142. Then you think the law is broken? — 1 know it is. 32043 Do you mean in regard to the sale on Sunday ? — Yes, and after hours on othei' days. 32044. How about sale to minors: is there .any trouble of that kind hei'e ?- — l do not know if there is nmch of that done here, but I have known of young men being found in saloons, young men who were under age. \ presume, when 1 say saloons, 1 do not know where else they could have gone astray. 3204*). Do you know whether there is any dithculty in this [)rovince in regard to till' sale of iidulterated li(iuors? I know nothing about it. 32040. It is stated tiiat in the older provinces tnis is a great ditKcultv ? Yes. 32()47. Have you any suggestions to make in legard to the license law that would make it moi'e erticient and enable it to be more elliciently observed? — I do n(tt think any lici^nse law will be ol)served by saloon-keeper-i, as a rule. .■')204S. Do you think that even if the license law were madt^ more stringent, it wciuld siiMjily remain a dead letter? — I thiidc so. There is a general feeling that when a busint'S', has lit;come legalized, no one wishes to turn informer on his neighbour in that way. 320 10. Could any imiiro\enient lie made by securing more efficient inspection and by the a|i|iniiit incnt of some officers to carry out the law; would that be a ste]) in tin; direction of making llie la v mortM^fficient? -If theiX' wer(! moi'e officers and they ditl their duty, the law would be better observed. 320 0. We iia\(' lieen told by one or two witnesses that theiH! is really oidy one ollicci in Manitoba as Inspt'ctor? That statement is hardly (Mirreet, as I understand the* matter. It may l.a\t' been tbe case until a short tim(! ago, probalily U'ltil within the last month or six weeks. I understand, however, that there ha- been a (K|)utv appointed at Iharuioii and it.iother at Portage la Prairie, But the facts connected with the Inspector 1 understand mcs that there has only l)een one Inspector foi' the whoU; province and his allowance for expenses was a mere bagatelle, and it was really an office that should not be on the statute book until it wiis pvojH'rly ccnistituted. 32(ir)|. A witness was called this nmrning who stated that there was a provision in the law for the ap])ointnient of a local otlicer. but the salaiy had to be raised by the tiixpavvTs, and this was found to be a burdtsn? — I believe that is the cast: there is something of the kind, but I am not (|uite sure of the duties of the person. 320r)2. ft has been stated by Mr. Clarke that the officer could be ))aid out of the local funds for his services (—-I know Inf. Clarke, in answer to my repeated complaints, Wm. R. Mff.ocK. 128 Vu ill' i\i\ 57 Victoria. iSessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 1(1 thiiil' it, it .vlu'ii tliat and (I tlu hin tho led 111 thi! iliolo ortice kioii 111 U! tl lieie is .f the mints, has statPtl that notiiini; was bi'i;;^ don*- to cnt'orcc the law l)ec!iuse \w liad ni>t tlic iiicaiis at his disposal. 32653. Do you know wlictlitM' the city |)olict! t'lideavum- to ent'nrcf the law ; Not at all. 32(jr)4. Do 3'ou assist in any way the orticci's to cnt'orcc the liocnsi law and sec that it is observed ?--I dt> not believe in the license law. 32655. Do you look upon the licensiiiji,' of the business as a sin '/ I do. 3265C. Are you connected with the enforcement of the law in any way as a member of the association for leeuriiis; total [H'ohibition ? — At the prcsetit moment I hold the ,)tiice of President of the Prohibition Leaitiie of Manitoba. 326.")7. In discharj^ing the duties of the position you hold as such, have you made efforts to pi'ocure the enforcement of the present law? — Yes, within the i>ast ten days. 32C")8. Has that action led to the appointment of other oHitcrs I- 1 think the vote of the people caused that action to be taken, because it was done before we intervcnefl. 32G5i). To what extent have you intervijned — for what ha\e you iisked ? -'Air the enforcemst loyed, becausi' I know the majority will be against then;. < )n those c(/nditions I iti;ree, other- wise ~ will not agree, to jiay for a licensed sin. ■326()k Have you mapped out any plan of ascertaining the tigincs in connection with the damages to which you have i-efei'rcd '. I think the statements of the witnesses liefore the l{oyal f/ommission woidd satisfy even the brewers themselves on this jioint, so that their claim would In; withdrawn \ 'ry (|uii'kly. I could produce witnesses from W'iiitiiiieg whose families I have lieen called upon to support by reason of drink. 32665. E.vcept on those terms you have mentioned, you would not ])ay remuneration to brewers and distillers? Certainly not. 32666. Do you consider that there would lion I — 1 can only say, as the Attorney (Jeneral |ilace such a law on the statute-book, theic will anv more than any otliei' law. Yes. It is the be any dillicidty in enforcing |irohibi of this Province has said, if our people be ni. dillicultv in enforciuu- that law view expressed by the Attorney 32667. That is your view ? (icneral in the late compaign. % Jiei\ Dr. MrLpud: 3266f<. Do you think the feiding in fasoui- of prohibition is \ery stroiig thinughoiit Manitoba? — It is vi>ry strong. 326()!). Was the feeling fairly e\]>rcssed by the recent plebisc'ite 'Yes. Prohibition received a majority of thousands. How. then, can it be said that it is not the expression of public opinion ? 32670.- Perha|)s it was a Joke ? The licjuor men tlid not think it wasa joki', because I hey took energetic action and scattered circulars far and witle in connection with the campaign. 32671. Then tlu^ liipior men went regularly into tiie campaign? —Tlu^y did. 1 have three jMimphlets, one of which was distributed just before the ballot was tak.en. 32672. Was it a one-sided agitation?- Indeed it wiis not. 129 21- -9** i, :.J 'M: I V Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 3l!()7;J. VVliat was the cliaracter of the campaign in favour of pruiiiliition .' l)icl you cover tlie Held with speakers and did you resort to tlie usual campaign methods ! -We were too po(jr in means to go into the campaign in that way. .■{2074. Is that the reason you did not ilo sol — We could not aflord to get any speakers from outside, and we simply had to do without them, and to d(j the best we could with local talent. ;$2()75. Could you give the Commission the figures of tlie vote? — I obtained the figures from the Department of the Attorney General, and I had them inserted in the. /'/•«(' J'lVKs, of wiiicli I liave the; slip hei'e. The total vote on the plebiscite was 2(),7o2. The total vctte of the counties at the Provincial Legislature election for the same con- stituency aggregated 2:5,104. The total vote for the prohibition of the liquor trade was li),G.'}7 and the total vote against prohibition was 7,115, a majority e([ual practically to three to one. There are several constituencies the votes of which are n(jt included. There is a diMicultv in tiiat regai'd. It seems the l)alk>ts tor that election went into the Ijallot box of the Provincial Legislature and the number will not be known until the Legislature meets. .'52670. They had no statement from those constituencies I suppose, and there is no means of getting an official statement from tho.se constituencies? — That is what the Attorney Oeneral told me, and also that the majority in favour of prohibition would be very cunsidei-ably increased when tho.se figures are obtained. The majority in favour of prohibition was I2,.")32 according to that return. ;$2()V7. Do you think that was a delibei'ate expression of the people in favour of prohibition .'- Nci man can think otherwise. ■'{2078. l)oy(>u think there is any difficulty attending the enforcement of a pm- hibitory law other than and greater than the difficulty of enforcing local option ! — I can see no possible diil'erence. ."$2079. Ts there not some difficulty in enforcing local option ? — It would depend on the area. ."52680. What would lie the chief difficulty in enforcing prohibition in jireference to a license law in Wiiunpeg ? -The want of enforcement by officials is an element. I tiiink it is against the disjiosition of Englishmen to turn informer against your neighlxiur, and in fact no one will inform. I myself lia\e been in such a position, but T would not loilge any information against a man in the business. Ft is against my feeling as an Knglislmian to bean informc'-. We look to the (iovernment to carry out the laws, and they should do their duty and punish offenders for breaches of the law. ."52081. There is a kind of c:onHict between the city and the Government .' — There is at the present time. ."52682. On whom does the resptmsibility rest, the city or the Goveriunent? — Do you mean under the iaw ? ."52()8;5. Yes. — I am not in a position to say ; I have never looked into the matter. ."52084. Does the Provincial Government issue the licenses? — Yes. .'5208.0. Who receives the licence fees? — A part goes to each. .'52680. I'o whom does the larger part go? — I think the fee is §2.")0 aiui .'^200 goes to the Provincial (jro\ernment. ."52()87. Then they divide the fee? I think it is divided in that proportion. 32088. Does not the law provide for the enforcement oi.' the law and that ci'ilain officers shall give theii- attention to it, oris this })rovision oidy in regard to the Inspector? - -I think only the Inspector is appointed by the Government and sjiecified under tlie provisions of the Act. ."52089. You spoke of what had been done during the last ten days. M'hat was done during that period towards the enforcement (jf the law that was not done before, and by whom was it done ? — The Mayor has informed me that, as Mayor of tliis city, he [>• going to see that the law is enforced, whether the duty falls on the Province or on the city, or he is going to know the reason why. I think tliat announcement, coupled with the fact that the Commission was coming here, luul an eH'ect. 32090. Then you think the visit of the Commission has not been in vain? I hope not. But when I heai-cJ you say that you had seen three drunken' men last Sunday, tiie announcement was like a cttld wave, and I began to lose faith in the people. Wm. U. Mulock. 180 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 32091. Do you kiujw whether under tlie law a municipalitv can appoint Inspectors'! —Yes. .■V2692. Such an orticer would be a dojjutv of the Provincial Inspector, I suppose? — Yes. .■{2()9.H. Do you believe that your Pi-ovincial Lej^islatui-;', obeying the behest of the peo[)le as expressed at the recent plebiscite, will at the coming session enact a prohibi- tory law ? — The Ministers gave tlieir word, and I presume that they will keep their word. .■{2()94. Supjxise the Provincial Government enact a prohibitory law for Manitoba ; do you see any ditiiculties in the way of cariying out that law .' On the contrary, J rlo not think there is any area in the woi'ld that is so suitabh' in which tci have a ]>i'ohil)itory law enacted as Manitoba, and for these reasons : To the tioith we have an unknown region and HucJson's IJay, wiiich is frozen over for man\' months in the year and through which trartic never could regularly come, so far as this province is concerned. On the south we have, for the greater pai't of the distance, a ]irf the lai'gest employers of laboui' in the Maritime Provinces, if not in the Dominion, that he believed it would jiay the country to expend every dollar of the revenue on the enfoivement of a prohibitory law. Will you go so far as that ? — I have never given the matter considei'ation fi'om that stand- point : but in my opinion it would, taking the figures submitted to the House by Mr. I'oster in his last speech on the subject. .'52099. I think you said that tj.ere is relation between the trade and the drunkard : do you see a close relation between the two?— I see cause and effect. 32700. You think it is not well for the State to establish a trade which produces that kind of effect ? — I do not. I agree with Archdeacon Farrar in that respect. .32701. Have you knowledge of the Northwest Territories? I have been in tlu^ North-west Territories ; I was there for a visit, but I was sick most of the time. 32702. As a professional man, coming in close contact with business men and busi- ness intei'ests in the province, have you noticed that the licjuoi- trade, in its wholesale department, and its retail department, and liotel, bar, restaurants, and every wheic else, has any effect whatever on othei- brandies of trade in the country ? -I am not, of course, a business man ;but making use of my powers of observation, I have no hesitation at all ill saving that the other trades are very seriouslv injureil by it. All who have given 131 21 9J** f - i. i I' t: -( V. 'I '.' '■ [i . ii.i;: I'M' !J Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. the subject considemtioii must necessarily admit that it is so. I will refer to a family which 1 have in my mind in this very city. The children have needed actual bed-eloth- ing, lx)Ots and shoes, bread and butter, and the necessaries of life, and the money that would have bought them went into the :saloon.s. The innocent, theiefore, sufi'er to that extent. 3270.'<. Have you observed whether such cases are rare, or whether there are comparatively many of such cases 1 — 1 am sorry to say that there ai'e many of such cases. 32704. Have j'ou observed whether others than those who drink to excess cause their families to suffei-, and whether reguhi!' drinkers and esj)ecially those who di'ink in moderation aic so atfected ? — l have observed such cases, and have even come across them in my own business. 3270-"). I do not now refer simply to cases of exce.saive use ? — Not simply to exces- sive use. 32706. Do you regard the growing feeling as expressed in your plebiscite and in various ways throughout the country as one desirous of prohibition, aiul is the result du(^ to observation on the part of the people of the elf'ects of the trade? -I do, the result of oijservation and education. 32707. Sjieaking about crnnpensation : you ha\(' expressed your opinion on that point. A witness before the Commission has stated that that (|uestion should be left to the ])eople. Do you believe the people would vote in favour of granting compensation to brewers and distillers'? — No, I do not think they would. I am satisiied that they would not api)rove of it, because in England two years ago, a IJill relating to the liquor trade, in which compensation was proi)ose(l, had to l>e withch'awn by the Governnu'iit, although it had been carried by a large majority on the second reading. ."52708. Hu[ jiosing, ace -ding to the recent vote, the majority in Winnipeg would 1)1 1,300 to 1,400 in favour of a general prohibitory measure, would that mean that if {)! oliihitioii were enact<>d and a])plied to Winnipeg, with a population of .'iO.OOO, it woidd be accepted and enforced ?- 1 tiiink so. 1 am ]ierfectly set in my own mind 270'.t. Are you a member of tlu> Chui'ch of England?- I am. 32710. Ai'e you a nicniber of the Synod?- I am a delegate to the Synod. 32711. Has your Synod exj)i'essed its views on the temperance (|uestion and on prohibition ? — It has not ; but, perhaps, I may be wrong in my statement. 1 think the Svnr>d osos? — Yes. I would jM'rsonally yo further; but J cannot lielp feelin<^ with i-espeet to the Sacrament that if tht'r(> was a conscientious feelinfjf by some of the people that fermi'iited wine sliould be used, we should not interfere with that, although I think it is wrong. By Judge McDonald : ,32720. Would you vote against fermented wine coming in for that purpose? — -Yes, as a matter of principle. 32721, I .see that the pr(!sent law pi'ovides (Section Klfi); "Any police constable shall for tlu; purpose of detecting violation of any of the ])rovisions of tills Act which it is his duty to iMifoive, have tlu; right to entei' on .all or any property." Is the ditHculty whether it is hi. y or not? -- I do not know that there has be(;n any cpiestion raised undiM- the clause 'iiat has been read, I am sjxiaking of general enforcement. 32722, I notice that any j)ei-son may niak<» a com|)laint and that it shall be the duty of the [lispector to institute ])rosecutions ; and in case. Section 173, " any person gives to the Inspector information justifying the ])rosecutii)n of any person named, it shall be the duty of the Inspectoi- to lay an infonnatiuu in his (»wn name ;ind ])rosecute " .' — Yes. 32723, You hav«.' expressed, as an Kngiishman, your detestation of the cliaractcM' of an informer. You have also said that you could not bring youi"self to lay an information in regard to this matter?— Tt is not part of my duty as a citizen to do so. .'{2724. Have you ever furnished the I nspectoi' with information ? I have. 32725. Did lie act on it?— -Yes, so far as it was in his powei' to do so. 32720. Supposing you saw a person commit a felony, would you lay infoi'ination against him? — Isuppo.se it would be part of my duty to do so, as a citizen. T have ne\pr had occasion to flo .so. 32727. l^o you not think that in the minds of a great majority of the people tliert- is a very ditl'erent view taken as to a f)erson being an informer in such a case and an informer und(>r a license c)r prohiliitory law ? If 1 pay a salai'ied otKcer to cari-y out the law, I e.xpect him to do it. 32728. You pay a })olice (jtKcer ; yet you would not hesitate if you saw a man pick- ing anothei-'s pocket, to liaxe him arraigned and to lay information against him and pi'os((cute him. You would not feel any stigma would attach to the informer in that (•use? — There is undoubtedly a ditrerence between a crime and a mi.sdeameanoui'. 32729. Is there not a ditt'enuice in the public mind ?- I do not think stealing should lie instituted as a comparison with an infringement of a law such as a license law. 'riinse ort'ences ha\'e always been dealt with in a diHerent manner. .'')2730. If a nuisance were committed on your jireinises, would you hesitate Ui lay information ? — Not as a matter of sentiment. 32731. You would have no sentiment on that matter? --No. •32732. But those against whom you complained are, I understand, in youi' opinion < ausing a worse nuisance than in the other case? -IJecause 1 absolutely have no faith V hatever in license. 32733. You are speaking of t!ie ,'e,tsoii why you will not t(i iieins; drajiued into outside matters. .327.3b As regards its effect? -1 do not know anytl ' (■\il in the world to-day as drink. .32735. Then why isthei'e adiU'erent sent iment, in regard to laying information in smli cases the cases to which 1 have referi'cMl ? - if a man commits a nuisance, on my premises it becomes a j)ersonal matter between him.self and me. In tlii^ other ca.se, it is a matti'i' between the community and some other person. I do not think they are analogous cases. 3273(). You have a license law in force. A man who wishes to get licpior on Sun- day breaks the law, and the salooii-k<'eper who sells to him helps to break tli(> law. Neither will lay information against the other. An injury is done to the public, and there is a public nuisance. You are one of the public, and yet you say you will not lay infiirmation ?-— I have not dotu^ so. 32737. Have you stated the reason to the Commission? — I sui)po.se so. lay information I •g tiiJtt 1 object tiiJtt is caur-ini' so much !■ f !■■? w i mini i n t rt ai i- iii WiimiTtMirij I i^ Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba. i'ii EDWARD A. BURBANK, of Winnipeg, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; By Judge McDonald : ■\'2TMi. What is your business or occupation?- -I am Manager of the Merchants' Protective Law and Collection Association. .{2739. How long have you resided in Winnipeg ?~Alx»ut one year. Before that time where did you re.side ? — At Carman, in the Province of 32740. Manitoba. 32741. 32742. Manitoba. How lung did you reside there? —Aiiout two years. And bet'.'!-'' that, where did you reside? — At Deloraine, in tlie Province of 32743. IldW long were you Bcfort' CO I have been in the province altogether about ming to this province, where did you reside? — I came here fi'om there ?- four year.s. 32744. Australia. 3274.5. Have you ever lived in any country where a prohibitory law was in foi'ce ? - No, I have never been a permanent resident of any country where such a law was in force. 3274(). Ha\e you been a temporary resident of such a country ? — Yes. 32747. Where ? — In Kansas, Iowa and Maine. 3274S. Was your trip through these States simply one of business, or did you make any stay '! — I did not make a permanent stay, but f was in each State for a period of from si.x. weeks to three months. 32749. In Kansas, what was the state of things there? — I found a prohibitory law, but I did not find prohibititu. 32750. Was it jHissible to obtain intoxicating licjuors for beverage purposes there? —Yes. 32751. Were they obtained with dithculty or freely? — There was difficulty in ol)taining it, unless you were acquainted a^ to where it could \>e got. 32752. What were the difficulties ? -There was a law which jirovided that you had to obtain a certilicate from a physician before you coulfl obtain licpior fi'oiii a druggist. 32753. Did you file such a certificate with a druggist? — Yes. 32754. Did you have ditliculty in obtaining the certificate ? — Yes, unless you needed it for medical purposes, 32755. Then the doctors lived uji to the law ? — Most of them seemed to try to do so. 32756. How did they succeed? — There were "blind pigs" ;ind dives carried on there. 32757. What ai'e " blind pigs " ? — Places where liquor is sold without a license and contrary to the law. 32758. In the drug shops? — No. 32759. Were there many of those ? — I will refer to some statistics I have here. I will quote from the report of the Commission of Internal Revenue at Washington, for 1891. That report states as follows, respecting the prohibitory States: — " Iowa — 1 I reutitier.s, (i,3~4 retailers, ,")4 wholesale dealers, "Jit brewers, .S(l.") retail dealers in mall liquors, 2G7 wholesale dealers in malt li(|Uors, making a grand total of 7,(iH0 dealers in li(|Uors in the .State of Iowa. "Kansas — 2 rectifiers, '2,SI1 retail liiiuor dealers, IK wholesale li<|iior dealers, 1 brewer, .">2.") retail dealers in malt li(|Uors, (il wholesale dealers in malt, making a total of 3,410 liciuor dealers in the prohibition .State of Ivansas. " >hiinu — 1,1!).') letail licjuor dealers, 8 wholesale li(|iior dealers, 12() retail dealers in malt li(|Uors, 11 wholesale dealers in malt Ii(|uors, making; a total of 1,.'WS li(|nor dealeis in the State of .Maine. "Vermont — 48S retail licjnor dealers, "21 retail dealers in irialt li(]i;ors, 9 wlioleaale dealeis in malt, making a total of ."il.S liciuor dealers in the .State of Vermcmt. " North Dakota — (ilJt li(|Uor dealers. " South Dakota — 1,431 liquor tlealers." 32700. Ai'e you in a positiou to say whether these United States licenses givH tiiese persons authority to sell contrary to the Sta(,(^ laws ? — Yes, they do. Edwaud a. Bukbank. 134 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 32761. Because we find, in rej^ard to Maine, that tliouj^li rertitieates were issued by the United States (jovenunent, yet they did not justify seilinj:; in the State contrary to tiie State enactment, and the only lienetit arisinj:^ from talvinu; out tiiese ceilificates was tliat they protected persons sellinj^ from prosecutions heinj,' instituted hotli hy the State and by the Federal (loverninents? — Yes, that is so. 32762. We were j^iven to understantl that the possession of one of these certitii'ates in Alaine was considered to be prima ftidi: evidence of bi'each of the State law. Ts tiiat the law in Kansas'/ -It niif^ht be the case, but I do not undertake to say that it is so. ."52763. Do you know whether men who have these certificates I'eally manufacture,' -I would not undertake to say .so, but T do not iinaj^ine they take out these certificates for amusement. 327<)4. What else do you know in respect to Kansas? — I do not know anytliin^; beyond what I have stated. 1 am not a drinkinj^ man myself. 3276."). Do you take ale? -I would not say that I am a teetotaller. 3276(). Did you take any liquor thert'? No. 327<)7. Therefore, you are not able to speak from personal knowledge of the(jualiiv of the liquor sold there I — Only from lieai'say, and froni the fact that I saw peo{>le drunk in Kansas. 3276S. .Judging i)y tht^ efTects of the li(|uor, could you form an opinion as to whetlier the liipioi' was pure or otherwise ] — No. 3276'J. Then it might ha\e been the best or the worst .' Yes. 32770. What year were you in Kansas? — In 1S87. 32771. When wei-e you in Towa?- The same year. 32772. What did you see there?- Pr(>tty much the same condition of things. 32773. Have you no statistics about Iowa? — Yes, 1 will rejieat them. " lowii, 11 rectifiens, (i,.S74 retailers, .")4 wliole.siile (leiilers. 'JO liiewer.s, ;{!).") retail deak'rs in malt li(|Uors, 2(17 wholesale dealei'.s in malt li(|Uors ; making a graiiil total of 7, (>.'»') denlers in tlie Stato of Iowa." ■32774. What about the observation of the law in Iowa / - I jjresunie it was art in that contest?— No part, e.Kcept that three days before the election, I was requested to write something for the newspaper giving ray \ iews on prohibition. 185 fiom my (d)servation )rohibition was in force / — driiikinj; was done there ' :5279.S, ;52794 supiiort it ? 3279.-), ciiforcefl 1- 3279(), ;52797. .•52798. you would lint )])ti(iii law was Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .32789. Wimt were tlio.se views? — They arc expressed in this ))anij)hlet, a copy of which I (ile with the Commission, .32790. Do you wisli to liav(^ this pamphlet taken as expressint; the i'(^sults of your own experiences? There is nothing in that pamphlet that would violate the oath I have taken here, for it contains nothing hut what I regard as facts. 32791. Was the opinif)n at which you ari-ived favourable or unfavourable to jndhi- bition ? — T would vote for i)i'ohibition readily, and T wuuld believe in ab.solute prohibition if my impressions, ol)servations, I'oading and .study had not led me to believe that idisolule piuhibition was impracticable and impossible. "<2792. Then personally you are in favour of it ? — Yes. But you l)elieve it to be impracticable ? -Yes. Therefore, though yuu may be jjersonally in favour of it, That is my position. Have you lived in any section of Manitoba w^ "re a local 1 lived at Carman during the local option jieriod ihere. How long ;igo was that? - I believe that was about last January. How long was local option in force there? — Thre(> years altogethei". ^\'as it a success? — -No, it was woi-se than a failure. 32799. Was li(juor .sold there? — Yes, and there were many round ai)out ways of selling it. The Church of England and it.s congregation was forced to remove from its regular j)lace of worship to a distance of a (piartor^of a mile on account of the drunken satui'naiia and the ))ad conduct of drunken men. 32800. How large a place is Carman ? — It has about ."iOO or (iOO jieojjle. 32801. Did not the authorities [)ut a stop to those disturbances ?- -I called upon them to do so. 32802. Could you not have cilled upon the Chief In.spector at Winnipeg to enforce the law then*? — It was not safe for ladies to be on the street, owing to the l)ad conduct that was carried on. 32803. Was no attention paid to those requests and reconnneifdations ? — If any attention was i)aid to them, the eflbrts were purely spasmodic and inetl'ectual. 32804. I understand that this is the statement published by you : '• We me rt'liiil)ly and cr(;(Ul)ly iiifornifd that four cases iiiid one keg of wlii.sky iuriveil in ('iirinan l)y last Tiie.siiay's express from Winnipeg. .Some of it was, no ilouht, Ko penson.s for tlieir own and friends' use, while it is likely some of it wa.s for other i)ur|)oses. We wonder if the local iiis|tiMtor has l)een looking after these little matters ? Really our local inspector does not even make ii good .scare-crow for' the wliisky people. ' Was action taken on that remonstrance? — The local inspector was a timid man and he was o\er-aw(>d ; he would have been willing to do his duty if he had l)een in full charge. I submit some more newspaper extracts bearing on the mattei', as follows : " Carman would seem to furnish a good field for the attention of Chief Inspector Clarke and the local inspector, Mr. Honeywell. We dcm't know how niucli of tlie ardent i>< sold here, hut we do know tliat oceans of it is l)eing drunk every da)'.'" " Chui'cli of England .Services will lie lieM in (iordon Hall on next Sunday evening, at 7 o'clock, instead of il\ the I're.sliytei'ian church as heretofore. We understand that heieafter (Jordon Hall will he the |)ermanent |dace of worship for the Knglish chui'cli congregation." " The local liijuor inspector says there is no whisky sold, oi' drunk to excess, in Carman. We would like to know how many honest |)eople there are in (^arman who will say lie tells the truth." "Tlie .scenes of lawless drunkenuess, lighting and rowdyism enacted on the streets of Carmiin last Monday were alike shameful and disgraceful, and call loudlj' upon the li(juor licen.se ins|)eetors to do their duty. The language used by some of tliem in and around the Starkey house, in hearing of the lady guests of th.t hotel, was too foul and tiltliy to he heard in a Spanish hagnio. It is plainly the ilutj' of the chief inspector to appoint a local inspector here, who has the ahility and jduek and integrity to do his duty like a man, a man too who, at least, has the respect of the oomnninity." 32805. Local option \Yas carried there, we understand? — I was not there when the \'(»te was taken. 32806. We understand that onlv twentv-five votes were registered against it when it was adopted ?— It was repealed while I was there by 287 to 48. 32807. How long was it in force? — About three years. 3280s. Whei'e were you when the vote was taken on the i-ecent plebiscite? — In Winnipeg. EnWAKl) A, BUUBANK. Ii; 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'{2809. I think vou i.ssuetl tliis piiiuplilct tn wliicli you have lefcrrefl ? — Yes, 1 issued it two (Ifiys before tiie oicclion. ■■{2810. Did you speak at puhiic ineeliiiij;s on the (|uestic)n f — Xo. Thei-e wore meet- injis iiold, at wiiicli proiiibition was advocated by tiiose wlio were friendly to it, but I took ii(» part in them. .'52811. Wiiat was the vote jjfiven by Carman ? -I cannot say. When I speak of Carman, I speak of the municipality in which it is situated, Dull'erin. •12812. J)i. Was thei'e a lai'j^e vote polled ( Yes. .'$281 4. Was it a much larger \(ite than is f^eiierally broujfht out on (juestions (»f this kind ? — I taki; it that even the vote fell two or three thousand short of the vote <;enerally polled in the province. It w(juld have lieen nine or ten thousand short if that (piestion had come up separately. But the people weiv votini; for candi(hites f. Ye.s. 32822. So the introduction of the Scott Act did not help to make Carman moi'e orderly ?---T do not think so. .32823. In case of the enactment of a general ])r(jhibitory law, a law prohibiting tin- manufacture, importation and sale of alcohcjlic liquors for beveragi; purjioses, would you recompense brewers and distillers for loss of plant and material ? As regards an indus- try that has been fostered by the (Government and which has been in existence .so long as the bi'ewing and distilling business, in which people have invested capital, I do not ' see that an honest man can escape the conviction that compensation should be paid for thiMr plant I think they are entitled to the same compensation as would be the pio- piietoi' of a newspaper or printing establishment if the paper was closed u]) by the iUiv- ernment, or a miller if his mill was closed up. There is a matter to which I desire to iiuon he should have as.sistants. I think the people who call themselves prohibitionists and tempei'ance people should have gi\-en su]>port to the enforcement of the license law. If a license law cannot be enforced, I do not see how a prohibitory law could be enforced. m Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. WliJit wniild l)c tilt' (lilliciiltics in ciiturcinj,' a |)i(iliil)itoi'y Ifiw ? Tt sncms to (' would 1)1' till' siiiiic (lltlii'iiltics tliiit at present attciid the eiit'ni'fi'iiicnt (if :V2H-J7 iiie that til till' lieeiisf law .'J282f<. Till' (litlirulties that srein ti> attend the eiit'oiroment of a license law at jiresent ai'i^ to iireveut lieeiisees tVoin sellinj; at'tei' hours on wc^'k days, on Sundays and to minors. Mow coulil any one ot' those dittieulties arise in ease liijuor was not allowed to he sold at all / -If the law could he violate I in oiu' res|)ect in re^jard to many of its jirovisions, 1 do not see why it could not he violated in other respects. ;{2iSi'll. You think the same diHicidties would exist as under the license law. Would any of the ditlieulties to which [ have referred exist in a ;,'reaterdi';,'ree under prohibit ion than now ( < )ne of the iirineipal trouhles in enforcing,' a proliihitory law would he the ditliculty attending; the capture of smui,'glers, tin; ditliculty of liiidin^' out where liipior was liein{:f sold. .Sl'H.'U). You think, then, that one of the chief ditlieulties would he that licpior would he hiduu'ht into the country illegally ! Precisely so. .'i2fS;{l. You think that it would he sold illicitly and that otiiei' evils woulil creep in .' —There would he sinu;fj,'liiij{ and violation of the law and infractions of the law far in excess of those prevailinji under license. .■5l'832. You say that you think a license law, jiropi'ily enforced, would he tlie hest measure, and in your o|)inioii the law is not enforced now for lack of sutlicient otlicersto do it. If a sutlicient iiumher of ollicials were appointed to enforce the license law, would you in that vs'ay he ap]iointiiii,' a stall' almost sutlicient to enforce prohibition f -A great many more men would he reipiired to enforce i)r-oliihition than to enforce a license law -it would b(! more ditlicult to tuiforce prohibition. ;J:2f<.'l.'l. Have you been in anv section where there have been illicit stills in op 'ra- tion ?— Yes. ;5-J8;U. In what part of Canada/ Not here. 328.'ir). Where? In Tennessee, (!eoi'f;ia and Alabama. 328."U). Has not the United States (io\ernmeiit taken very stern measure to put down those stills I — Yes. The report for last year to which I have referred, states that 717 illicit distilleries were ])rosecuted in the United States. .■iL'S,'$7. Were they attached by the United States (Joverninent for breaking the re\ enue laws .' - Yes. 3:i8.'}8. Are there any other suggestions you de.sire to make that would be of advant- age to the Commis.sion in regard to the matters referi-ed to them for inipiiiy '/ — If every hot(!l or restaurant were pi'ohibited from having billiard or pool rooms wliei'e liipior was .sold, and where the public cannot see what is going on, it would be an improve- ment. 3283!). So you think that to secure a thorough enforcement of the license law, and to amend that law .so as to contain such provisions as you have suggested, so as to have those places oj)en to the public gaze, would meet the case better than legal enactments? I do. ,'52840. Would you in that connection favour a rigid and frequent in.spection of the li(|U(>r .sold I Yes, by all means. 32841. Have you any reason to suppose that li(juors an' adulterated at the present time I — I liav(? had no e.xperience of that kind. F have here some uuire statistics. It is claimed by the apostles of prohibition that the various systems of prohibition, local option and high license and other forceful methods resorted to in the United States and in Canada, have reduced the extent of the liijuor traffic on the continent. The same report from which I have already (juoted, however, shows an increase of bushels of grain consumed in the manufacture of liquor in 1891, over last year of 1,144,740. Increase of gallons produced in 18!(|, over last year G,")59,9-"37, an increa.se over the average produc- tion in the last ten years of 28,024,71'') gallons. This increase must have been for home consumption as exports for those years decreased. This report also shows a steady increase in fermented liquors. For example, in 1862, only 2,000, 62") barrels were manu- factured in the United States, in 1891, it was increased to 30,478,192. Of course, that report is for the whole country. EdW.VRI) A. BUKB.WK. 138 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1834 hy Jiev. Dr. McLeod : 32842. The K^iircs (|ii()te(l liy you Wduld seem to sliow tliiit there hiis liccn m lar^'t- iiicrcaso in tlin coiistiinpti'ni of Ii<|Uors iti tlio I'nitt'il States '( — -Yes. .'{liHi;}, Would lliut ilcuioiistriite ti> you tin' t'liiluro ot' proliiliition of tlio t'aihiic of licen.se ? -It would demoiiatrate to my mind tliat all the ayitatoiH and tempeiaiiec mm wlio have attfinptcd to Lrrappk; witli llie existenvr of the liipioi' tratlic have heen failui'cs. .'{•JSl.". . |)()(>s liciMisc pn-vail o\er a lai';(er area in the I'liiled Stales than does pio- hihition .' I am iiuahle lo answei' that ipiestion. ■VJH H. I )o you know whether prohihition has heen attempted in more .States than license? — 1 know that of thirteen .States in the United States that have enaeted pro hihition laws, eij^jht of them have i-epealed the laws. .■{-Ml"). J )oes lieenses |)revail in more States than does prohihition? 1 cannot say. 3284(). I'loliiiiition is a niodei'n measure. ' helieve ? \ helieve, aceordinu to the ))est of n,\ ju(l;;nient, that a l.irne proportion (Ji ihe territoi'y is under license. •■{2N47. Would that increased consumption of li<|Uor b(! attriJjutahlo to license or to jirohihition ? That is a ditlicult (piestion to answer satisfactorily. .'{lis JS, JIas the inci'(>a.se heen larger in th(> licensed territory or in tiie jirohiliition territory.' I cannot answer that (piest ion. .'{I'Sli). Perhaps you can turn ti. the ]>ages of the hook to which ynu lia\i' Keen referritifi and re;ul the ninnber of States other tlian those States you ha\e ipioted, other than Kansas? What States do you mean? .'528.")0. (Jf comse 1 have not studied the book.- -I picked out all the iirohibitiini States. 32iSr)l. You si)okeabout States. You saifl there were a ijreat many lii|Uor dealers in .Maine. i>ip you believe that there is more licpior used in that State than tiiere was for- nu'i'ly, wluMi licenses were issued 1-1 uncJerstand that there are a ninnl)er <>f Kederal licenses issued for the .sale of li(pior by hotels, which I have (pioted. .■?2.*>\ Dr. }f,-l.,'„d : .'i-JMCi'J. ||;i\c yoii scfii the license ('('rtitlcdtoH iHSUPd to MniiiiMiiul Khiimhs jicopic liv tile I 'iiili'd States (JovormiKMit '.' -Yes. ;<-'H().'{. Are tliev culled lieeiises on tlie hiick? — T think so. ;{l.'S<')4. fs it not tile l'ecel|i( .' F tliink (lley iil'e eiiiied licenses. .'5L'S(i"). Do yon know wlieijier the receipt stiites that the liold(M' is aiithofi/od to s\;ll I'epirdiess of' State licenses, or whethei' he can sell without a State license / — I can- not say, hut in_v impression is that it does not refer to the State at all. .'J28()6. Do you know whether in Maine, in s|)ite oi tlie tax receipt of tho Fedoral (iovernnient, men endeavunrinLt to carry on a wholesale and I'ctail business have heen .sent to jail and diiven out of .Maine? I do not douht it. .'{■_'S(i7. ^'ou lia\e s|ioken ahont Carman I Yes. .'VJM08. How lai'^^e a place is it,' It has between "lOU and tiOO inhabitants. 3:]8(>!). Is there any police otKcor there? -They have one now. .'{l'S7U. Did they not have a ]>(»li<'e officer formerly? -They had a constable. ."tliSTI. The people repcaleii tlie local option law, we believe? Yes. ;Il'S7"_'. .And llicy base appointed a ])olic(^ constal)le since f 'S'es. That was the measure I ad\i>cateil before I closed my paper; f wanted them to a|ipoint a policeman to enforce the law, as violations were tnkin;^ place 6very day. '.Vli^lW. I)o you think there has (U^en any eliani;e in the condition of all'airs under license as compared with local ojition ? — f do, for the conilition has improved. ;{l.'M74. ^^lU do not attribute that riotous state of affairs there to prohibition, I believe?— Not, at all. ;{'JiS7r). Prohibition did not cau.se those distui'bances ? Prohibii ion did not prohibit. .'<287ti. VVere those disturbances (hie to tht^ failure of prohibition, or of the |)arties it charfied with the enforcement of the law ? The oUicer had not a chance to do his duty. .'{:iH77. If there had been an oHicer tliere to lay chai'j^es, would there not have been a better enforcement of the law ? — Perhaps so. .'5^878. |)o you think it fair to char<;o a law, which involves a certain principle, with any infractions of tln^ |ieace which occur owinj,' to a timid otUcer ? — I rlo. .■!l'87'.'. You think it fail- to charjfc it a<;ainst the law ? - Yes. ;5l'8MO, Why ? \''ou covild not find a Na])oleoii or a Ciesar in excry locality to enforce the law. .■?2881. If you enact a law that requires tho best coura<(e of a man to carry out and enforce, you will enact a law that it will be impossible to carry out ? — If tiie man had seen the law better enfoi'ced he woidd have subjected himself to jiersonal (hini;er. ;52S82. T think you said that you did not tliink the law enacted that (Condition of thinfliiliitiiiM at llir jili'liisfiti^ wuiild I '<■. I bclifvc, two to Dill', lln'i'i' lifin;,' a iiiajoi-ity of 110 for jiroliiliit ioi>, 1 low do you iifoouiit tor tliiit vote in view of the pcojilc liaviiij; in dis;.'iiHt rcp«'alfd the lociil ojition law and rclurncd to lict'iiHc 'f I account for it in two or tlirrf ways, tilt' ]iolitical idi'ii ; and next, it was a |iro\inrial <|Ucslion, iind llir vole f" ii'M*, tlirrt' was N taken all tilt! province ; and in tliis way I think the vote was generally a protest a;.'ri.isl the lack of enforceiiiciit of the license law. .■i289l. Then you think the license liiw has not lieen enforced at all .' No. .'{■JM!);'). Do you think the sentiment of the people wjis, that the lici'iix; law slioidd he hci^er enforced ! I cannot sav I hat. .■{'_'H<)(;. Do vou think it makes anv ilifl'eience svhether t le llcelisi' aw ■11 enforced or not as re;,'ards the amount of drinking '. I think it dues with rejjard t( drinkin;; and drunkenness. .'J'iiSyT. J)() you think it is worse for the people iopro\iiie the facilities for drinkinj. That opt'iis a vast ipiestion tli tl e (inestlon ot person ii;;ht and personal lilierty. pens up the (piestlon as to whether it is jnoper to i 'ntor( •e siiiii|>i iiary laws, ,-heil It ler it is proper to |)ro\ ide what such a man shall, and what he shall not, drink. .'{28i)8. Is a prohihitiiry law a sumptuary law I- Yes. .'{281)1), In the pro|ier sense of the term? Any law presciihin;,' what a man shall eat and what he shall drink and what he shall wear, is a sumptuary law in inv n|)iiijoii. i')L"J()U. You ha\e expressed yourself in fa\<)ur of pnihihition, and it appears vou are only opj)os(!d to it because you think it is not practicable .' Yes. JVJ'.tOl. You think it in not practicable because asa result there would be siMUi.',nlin;i and illicit .stills and a ''rent nianv thiii'^s of that kind ? Yes. '.\'2'M)'2. Do vou think all the sinu;,'j;lini,' and illicit stills \\i I'tl'ects of the di'ink habit and drink trat the C(inse(|uences would be wfiise. :421)();i. What do you tliink are the bad '. I rejr.ii-d them as bad. as it is establish to-dav worse llian the I do : I think ■H'ects of the drink iialli are tnev irnod or .■{'Ji)()4. And you think tlu^ other etl'ects would be worse ,' Yes. .■{•_'!H)."). >v tlie Women's Christian Temjierance I'nion, on prohibition, in wliii'h ii was mentioneil that the Sctttt Act had been ie|)ealed in nearly every county in (he Mast, that tlie l^unkiii and the Crooks Acts and the North-west |)i'ohibitoiv law had all i,'one the same way All tlie>e facts show ine conclusively that ab.solute prohibitiipii is imprac- ticable, for it has failed wherever it has been tried. .'JlMlOti. Which do vou think it would l)e easier to enforce, local or '' eiieral ]> >hib tioii a ;;enei'al law j>roliibiting the manufacture, imjiortation and sale of alcoholic li(|uoi> for 1 )e\ei'aj,'e purposes! I think it would be a tine tliiii''. Jii/ Judf/c MrDonold : .■{l!!)07. r under.stand you wish it to be placed on record that you yourself are favourable to i>rohil)ition on p -inciple ? — Y'^es. .'521)08. But you look upon it as impraotical>le t(jcai'ry out'/ — That is it in a nut-shell_ 141 i ir :m ^ Liquor TraflSc — Manitoba. MAIITIN FEKKE, of Winnipeg, (in being duly sworn, deposed as follows : - (Tntiinilat'ion.) .'52908«. I have resided in rtlanitoba since June. The firm I .uii coiniected with ure ini- ])ort('i's of I'reac'li wines and cumjjoundei's of spirits, I held a position in France as an analyt'eal eheinist. We h(»ld thi'e(^ licenses a conii)ouno|i;iiiion (Jo\ernn(ent, a wholesale license from th(! Provincial (!o\-erninent, and a business license from the city. The licpiors we compound are anisette, chartn.'use and cui'a(;ca : we do not compound gin, l)ut we have compi unded light wines. These are manufactured from extracts of plants, to give f'.vour to the liipiors, and alcoln)l and sugar. Light wines are made by the mixing of \-ery cheap varieties of wine, such as cin'rant or goosebccr-y wine, with a very rich h nie of greater body, ;md in this way we are enabled to produce a claret or a light wini'. We do not use glycerine or anything of that kind, iiecause .vc find that t'le natural wines ha\(' tne necessary ingredients to j'/foduce wine, has iiiv 17 per cent of alcohol, which is (|uite sutlicient for our ti'ade. Tn manufacturing wines, we ilo not make use of any deleterious substances whatever, in fact they are more of a tonic and are fa\ )urable to the healtii rather than harmful to it. If the Commission tliinU it desirable, 1 can furnish .m you the returns of the rei'c.nt plebiscite f I havi' the returns, but they are not coiiiplete. There are two or thiet; btillp*^ boxes that have not yet been opened. The reason wh\ 'hose ballots can-ioi be counted is due to the fault of the returning oHieer not fullv cari'yingout the iiiMi-uct ions sent at the time, vliicli were totheefl'ect that when the Irl.oi boxes were sent, he was to furnish a com])leii -01(1 separate return of the plebist^ite vote. Tn many instances this was not (lolu^ by the returning officer, and the retufii was made for election of members of the Legislature. .'12910 When your I'eturns are completed, will you fui'nisii the Commission wi;!) a .special statement of the actual returns ? Yes. The I'eason why 1 cannot give the full statement now is, because three or four constituencies iav yet under protest, and tiie boxes containing the ballots canni be touciied except by an order from the Court of Queeii',s Bench, and that cainiot be done until affjr the trial has taken place. 1 will M.MtTiN Fkhhic. 142 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 at ,ii<> siiiue time t'uriiisli the Cnimiiissiou witli a cupy ot' tlic Art auiliori/iiiu tlic takiiii;- of a ])lfl)isc'ite voU'. ii'JUll. Do you l)flit>\t' tliatManilol)a, l)y tlic recent vote, e.\|ifcssc(l aical ilcsirc t'of ]>i! Iiibition ? — Most uiidouhtedly, because at the |ii'esent state ot' tlie sole it stainls iwn to one in favour of pi<)liit)ition. '11 you tiiink" the vote of tile |)eo|ile was i,'i\en seriously, and not in fun JlMIl Th Yes. I have the record of two constituencies only, in which the \i)te was ad\fise to piiiliibition. In one tlieie was a majority of six against, and in the other fifty aifainsi, .■<2!)13. Do you believe tiiat the Province of Manitoba would be benetited by the liidhibition of the lii|uof ti-atlic ? — If I maybe allowed to answei- that i|Uestiori as my own feeliiiy would dit'tate, 1 would say yes, bi'inir wholly in faxoui' oi' prohibition myself. I tiriiily believ c the country needs it, and that it is one of the steps towards the adv aiice- inent of ci\ ili/aiioii which w" lia\e yet to take, and we have to take it ipiickly too. .■5i!i)l 1. Do y"U believe that prohibit' :i\ in Maiii'uba would be practicable if the law wertMMiacted and attempted to l)e cnfoii' •• . I think it would be. I kn iw of nothiiii; to prevent it beint; l)iduj;lil into force here Jiy Jiidiji' McDtiiiiihl : 15291"). !Ia\'e \()U had aiiv exneri ence <:f a ]>rohiliit ion ciiiintr\' No: I aine trom Enuliiiid heie. .'^■.'i)l(). Have you studied the (|uestioii in regard to the operation of prohibition in otli 'r pi; ces ? — No ; 1 ha\e only heard of it by hearsay. oL'i)17. In case of the enactment of a jiii hibitory law, a law prohibit in^; the iii.iiiu facture, importation and sale of alcoholic Inpiors for beveran'c purposes, do you consider that the brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and material ' T have not j^'one into those details or consi(l(>i'ed them, but I imaifine something; should be tfi\en to them. ;32!lli<. [ suppose you are e(|ually aci|uaiiited with the workinn' of the license law .' —Yes, 3291U. Is it found to work satisfactorily in .Manitoba .' Not at all. 3'2920. What are the diiiiculti,>s ? I hardly know exactly. The didieiiltio are apparent, but T can hardly i-x|>lain the causes of them. Probably noii-enforceinent of the .Vet would be one cause of it. .''/2itlM. Is it lack of a sufficient number of oflicers to carr\ out th<' Act .' It is lack of strin;ijent enforcement : I think tliei-e has been laxity in the enforcement of the law, which has f^iveii license to parties to break the law. 1 iiaxt seen so much trouble in connection with ilu sah- of lii|Uor after hours tliat T think the result has been found e\cn worse than liie : Ue of li(|Uor duriiif,' the jiroper hours. ,32922. You a)<', of course, favourable to prohibition .' Ye>. 3292'' Would you prefer a license law or unlramnielled sale.' I would prefer to ha\e the Hit use law done away altoj^'ether, and a prohibitory law passed. 32924. A\'ould you prefer untrammelled sale oi' a license law /-License. 3292"). Then you do not look on licensiny; as a sin /*''/■ .•." ? If it wa-- properly obser\-e(l and ]iroperly carried out, ])robably there wciuld not be such ;i persistent cry aLcaiiist the license law and as to the necessity of prohibition. .">292(). Has the law not been amended from tiine to lime with a \ iew to inakiiii; it mole perfect f Yes, but still it is defeit i\e. t. ■■, i! IJ 148 1 if! hif Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. EDWARD H. K K\ RK^'K, of Winnipeg, im licingduly .swoni, deposed a.s follows :— By Jufi(je 31 ^Donald : '.Vl^'ll. What i . yoiu' business or oceupjitioii ? — I am Public Annlyst of tlic inland Revenue Dejjai'tnii nt for t\\v. District of Winnipeg, and uni Lecturer eu Cheniistiy in the l'^iii\crsitv of iManiloba. ;i-2!)2H. You reside in tlii' eitv at tl iresent time ? Yes. .'5292!). J>id you eome liere from one of the otiicM- provinces or from England \--l lixed eight years in Oiitai'io, but I came to this country from Pjiiglaiid. ;{2'.>.'5(). From whom do you receive tlu! samples you analyse r -From the Inland Revenue l)e])aitment, through Mr. Costigan. ly^ whisUies, brandies, ales and porters .■i2!Kn. Ila\e vou made analvses of intoxicating li(|Uor ] 1 1 lave analvsei ;?2!).S2. Hav e VOU m.'M le such aiuUyses frecjiiently i Not until within the last year :v>\r.v.\. Have tNvelve of beer. \'oil r('cel\t'( 1 many /iunples \- A ha\(' twelve samples of whiskies ami md ;{2i).'54. No sami)les of wine ( — No. •■52i>.'{J3. No samples of brandy i- N(t. .■V2!).'l6. Was the whisky you analysed all of one kind ? No, some was rve wliiskv, some was white whiskv. V2i);i7. How di id vou lind those li(|Uors as regards purity Tl ier(! IS iKj leiiji tioii of adulterated liipior, for tliere is no standard. The Adultt to sul>stances injurious to health lo you think it would be better if tliere was and analyses made f -Certainly. s a more freipient iiispin'timi of '>-_".M(i. "SVould it improNcmenl if they were made to a large extent .'—Yes. loll IS hat most of the th Another point I may ment original bottles and not as .sold in the country districts. It would lii^ well if samples samples I lia\f recencd were ii C()ll Id be obtained of lii|uor as it is sold to the public, because it is stnted that watei'i of liipior takes ])lace iti the country districts :i-.".»(; suggestion was made iiiMonlrcid that dejiavt mental oil leers slion Id g. and take possession, for a time, of the licensee's premises and take samjiles of lii|Uoi' being sold in bulk and in decanters. Would you favour some proposition of llial are that kiml It Won 1.1 b belter to lia\e samples taken in that way. Edwahk W. Is ■ nkk K. \u 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A- 1894 Hon. ALHEin' C. Klf.LAM, ni \Viiinip(% .Juilf,'e of tlie Court of Queen's liciuli of tlie Provinc.'of Manitoha, on l)^'in^ re some time befoic I came here. .■V2'.'r)0. l)id you practise law liere Ijefore you were appointecl ttj the Henclif Yes. .T29r)l. How lonj; hav<' you l)een :i .Juilye of the Court of (^)ueen's IJcnch .' Sincf the beiiinnini; of ISS."), between seven and eight years. • .'?29ol.'. Have you noticed duriny; your residence here whethtT there has been a change in tlit; soci/d customs of the people in regard to the use of ii to.vicating bevera- ges, and whether it has been in the direction of tempei-anc oi' not? [t is .-i little ditli- cult to exj)ress an opinion. I should not (hink there has been any ;.'it';,t change, )irolia- bly there has been a dci-rcase as (•om])ared with the increase in ]Mipuiatio.i. .S2i)o."5. Do you tind the city of Winnijicg a well coiiductcd and sol ic,' city .' N'crv nuich so. on the whole. .'52954. Do your dut ics call you to tra\el throughout tlii' pid\ iiK'c !' .lust to Port- age la Prairie and to Urandon. .'i2il-")n. How far has youi' obsei'vation gone in that respect .' ((nr people area very sobei' and intelligent peo])le on the whole, and there is Nciy little erinie. .'V2'.).")(). Do you try both criminal and civil cas(>s J Yes. •'i29-")7. .\re you able to state what proportion of the criminal cases that come befcjre you may be at tributed directly or indirectly to intemperance f- 1 found not a very large ])roportion. T ha\e taken the trouble, on account of the fact that sonu- months ago ijuestions were sent to the .ludges, and which 1 o fai' as mv bein-' able to e.xiuess an oinnioii, 1 could not do so, liei'ausc tliree people pliaded guilty, and I therefore had i;ocatao.i which to judge. One was a case of larceny of lit]Uor, to which the oll'endei' pleaded guilty ; aiul it is doubtful ulietlier the drink ([ues- tion entered into that or not. Oi a case of indecent assault, in which the evi- dence of till' ]ilMintitr made it impossible to say whether the act w.is att ributable to drink o'' not. < )f t\ventv-fi\e ac(|uittals, so far as the e\ idence goes there were fotu' wl lo mi'.'ht and slicadd have been found gtiilly by the jiu hutable to drink drunken > ow where Oi both d lie man pleaded t;uilty, and his odeiici' was comini d 1 1 (I'em eir cases were not attri- itted in larli es were druii There were eiitht cases in wliii'h there was very strong cxidence against the parties, liiil they were n It otli ences due to intoxi eating liipior. Two were cases in whii'li the persons ap]ieare(l to be guilty of fraud, liut which did not ajipear to come exactls within the law, ami which were not t r: • Irink ; < me was a case ot assini It ench .' — Ni 145 21 10** \ ! I !( (; ! -"'^i^msmmmnammim Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .'5'jy<):J. As a uitizen, luive you iiotiued whetlier tlie law appears to b« well observed ill r-f^ard to sale on Sunday and after lioufs? — .Sj)ealvint,' of the lime I have been on the Beneli, I haxc not had an opportunity of rohibitory law, that is tiagi'antly and p(>rsistently violated ? — T think it would be demoralizing to a community in the sense of hvssening their respect foi' law. .'$'_'y7F. in case such a law were passed would you deem it riu'ht that compensation should be made to brewers and distillers for loss of plant and ))ro))ei'ty .' 1 slioulil think so. i desire to say on tlui (pu'stion of |)roliibition that a large number of [)ersons desire t{t use intoxicating li([uors, and F think it wouhl l)e an undue act on I In pai't of the majority to prohibit, their obtaining them. Hon. Aluert C. Fvillam. 146 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■^207r). Tiikiiiy lilt' class of peojili' wlio cannot be ri'straiiicd from ^i-ttiiijL; tlrunk, mill sonic of tliosi' incinlx'i'.s iij)[)('fir before the courts fepciiteiliy, and tlie cla-^s who use li(|Unr in nioileration, do you think it would Ih^ fail' and pro'ijer lo keep undei' I'cstfaint peo]>le who use liiiuor iniiiioderately ratiicr tiian shut it out eiitirciy from the people who use it in modeiation I — it would be much l)etter to keep tliose who use it to excess ifom using it at all. Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeml : 32970. Do you consider that tli(! ptMipU; of Manitoba '.vould be sti'origly in favour of enfoi'cinj;' a proiiiliitory law '. T hardly know what to say. The result of the r(;cent vote was a sui-prise to me. In my opinion it may lujt have e.xpressed the views of the jieople, for tiie reason that there was no jiractical outcome of it, it was not put into practical o])ei'atioii. Still I may be mistaken in that regard. I was surprised at such a large vote being given in its favour. .S2!)77. Then it expresses the desire of the j)eopie for prohibition? I suppose so. I}2!l77". Su])pose that the plebiscite indicates the will of tliep('o|)le as strongly as tiie \()te indicated, do you think that in that cast; it would bo jiracticable in .MMiiit'pi)a ,'• -I sU])])ose it should be tested ; we can only reason as to that at present. 3297''^. I •<> you think it would be unjusi if the majority enacted such a h<\v, even if sucii a majority desired to remove the trade and the temptations that the\- claim are connected with it?— 1 think so. \o doubt the majority would be seeking toin\ade natiiial rights for what they believecJ to be the best for the community. •')2'.)7il. .Su|i]iose tlu! majority take this view, that the prohil)ition of the trade is for the welfare of the whole community, and T supjiose they claim that tlu'lrnde is a constant menace to their families. Would it be right in the interests of the majority to impose their opinion on the minority ? -That is a very ditliculi (piestion to answer'. T still hold my ])i'evious ojiinion, that the majority should not infringe on the natural rights of man. 329S0. And 1 ,suj)pose the minority should not impose on the natural lights of the majority to protect themselves? ]t. might be so. :1 li the T [1 be tuple a to use lense 10, it ■n a It hat Inity J. K. McLENN.AN of Winnipeg, drain .Mer'chaiit, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — Bi/ Judge JJcBonald : 32981. Hovr long have you resided in Winnipeg? — Nearly two month.s ; I recently cane from Treheriu!. 329S2. Mow long were you there? — About two yc'ais. 329S,3. How long have j'ou lived in Manitoba ? — Four years altogether. .■{2!IS4. Di ;he business reslr'icled. .3299.3. If yon could not gel pi'ohibilion and wei'i' called upon to Note, would you ^ote for' uiilramirrelleil sale or a license law? — 1 would vote for the most striiij^ent license law I could get. 21 10.',='=* lij ) ! 147 "l«iJU«dUa|iLUIl JLJ„Ui*Sl i Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. Mu'DlJl. I)i) yiiu tliiiik till' lii'i'Msc law of Maniti)lia is a licciisc law ihat is well t'laiiii'd for tlic inirjioses ot" cairyiiitf oul loslrictioii ?- It is faii'ly well fiaiiu'd, and it' one or two iirovisioiis wci'c added, tiiey woidd sti'i'iii;th«n it iiiatcr'ially in that I'l-spcct. .■i2i)!)5. Ill what respect? — In a vilUigc where no lieenses are f^ranted, tiie law should |iro\ide that treatini,' and ld' That would be ad\antageous, peihaijs. ."{."iOOl. How long did you say you ha\(! lived in \\'iiiiii)ie;; ' .Vboiit two months ; I lived in Winnipeg, however, some time ago. .')."!(H)l'. |)o vim <'onsider I hat Winnipeg is a sobei and well I'onducted cilv.' \'es, fairly so. .'{."iOtl.'J. What kir.fl of prohibition do you fa\(iiir.' Tola! proiiibition. .'5.S00-1-. Y(vu mean total prohibition of the iiuinufacture. importation and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverage [lurjxises ! Yes. .■J.'^tlO-"). In case of the enactment of such a law, would you faxKur the granting of compensation to l)rewers and distillers for loss of plant and propiMty .' I would not. I do not think the trade is in a position to claim compensation. I know that last year a number of licenses were cancelled, and no claim was made for coinpensati<»n. .'?.'i()0(). Then you would not grant compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant .' f wiiuld not give any compensiition. />'// h''r. Dr. J/cLi'ofl : .■).'i007. ifavc 'vou had any e,xperieiic(? of prohibition, either general or local ? — We are working under a no lici'iise plan at Treherne. We had a license at lirst, but the jieople tinallv protested it out of the town and no license has been granted since. The license was protested about a year ago. ,'<:UJUS. Cople were boisterous at Holland, while the people at Treherne were ijilite peaceable ? Yes. MMOIO. Have you noticed similar differences in Ontario .' I ha\i' been in Carman, .Manitoba, which has been working under local option, and it was ipiite ditl'erent there. That law nas, however, been repealed reee'iitly. It was repealed owing to the temjier- Miice peo]>le takinij no interest ifi the contest, thinking that the regular bydaw had been illegallv submit ted ; it was snl)mitt(ai in a dilVerent form altogether. It was thought that there was no necessity to adopt a bylaw which was understood to be illegal, and tliat was the reason why temperance peo[ile did not vote on the (|uestioii of repeal. ;i.")()l I. Then they took no interest in the vote, supposing it amounted to nothing? — No; thev did not think the vote would aU'ect the law. 3:1012! And then the law was repealetl . Yes, that was the result. .'i.'iOi;!. A\'hat was your ob.servation of the state of allairs in Carman under the changed conditions' I had been a (oniniercial traveller for many year.s, and visited Carnian escry three weeks, and my iin]>i'ession was that Carman was a very (piiet town while local option was in force, and that 'here was very little 'ilriidiing there. Some ,). K. McLlANAN 14P |.?ii 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 few |)('()j)lc (,!)tiiiiitMl li(Hiur t'ruiii Wimiipcj; (ux'iisioiially, Imt on the wliolc tlierc w.is \i'vy little (li'itikiii<;. At the prcspiit time I ooiisidci' the state of the town to be quite tlie ooiiti'iirv. low? — Yes, iiml ii L,'reiit deal ot' li(|iior is beiii^r ^,t^,\(\ ji, ii.'UJl I. Tlicrt! are licenses very noisy jilaees -■501 . ou do husiiiess at 'J'relienie / Yes, in tiie stores tiiere. 3."{01(). I )o you know whether the is diverted into a ciiannel from wliicli no \alue is recei\e( .'}.'i019. I )o you tiiiiik prohiljitioii is a jaacticahli- measuri I think hibitorv law would be well enforced in Manitoba. 1' Trel lerne. ou tside of a f ew parties wlio woi \](\ be determined t judijin^' troiii my impi'essioiis at o keep a little liipior on hand. Outside of these i\-\v jieople, if the trade were ))roliibited, I belie\-e there would no ditiiciiltv ill enforciiiy' the law. ;l:iUL'U. Y ou iielieM! that even if there is that constant illicit sale, more or it i< not so injui'ious as established ta\eriis in the communii/y ? Certainly not. •'i.'JO'il. Are you disposed to belie\e that if laohibition could be strictly obser\('r the whole iiroN iiice •elieriK T violated and persistentlv \ i That is my opinion. In traxcllin;;' over J\ranitoba I have visited frecpiently, and from my observations I liavc seen tli oiated i)\- iio tel-ke "1" A lit aw ense law is ii there lla^fiantly I force there. ( )f course the houses are supjioseii to close not later than 1 I o'clock ; but when more or le; liasseiiyers came in bv tram, tlii' liot(i-ki'e])ers open i h ' lit ;iiid li(|Uoi- is sold \ erv freel\-. F i\(' also seen liquor sold betore si.\ o clock in (lie moriiiiii;', in two cases, .'i.'itjL'i'. So licensees are not particular to obser\e the pKihibit license law ? -Tliev certainlv do not. ory ]iro\isioiis i .f Ih >t)2.'i. And illicit sale ydcs on e\-eii when men are autliori/ed to st Hi/ Jiido you know anytliini; of the matter' 1 never heard of anything' of that kind before. •">:'i()27. lie further stated that Lulies v\'erc exposed in hearing' laiii^'uanc which was illitit to be heard, anil he iiicntioned Sunday, .\u;;ust "-'■^th. ISItJ, as one of tlii'(lati's. and stilled that he had callitl ll[»>n the Inspector to come forward and do his duty like u man. I)id you ever read sui:h re]ioitsin the ('armaii newspaper ot iliat time' I v iew> on the subject, and he says : •• The time is not far distant when tiiose who are now dest i-oyinif theii fellow men with the accursed stuff' will be iii;i(le to realize the enormit \ of their eiiiiie. (»f course that is the impression of a man who is evidently stronyly ..pjMised to the tratlie. I*irn, deposed as follows ; — Jii/ Judge McDoiKild : '.y.iO'Mj. I am infornu'd that you ai'e the Secretary of the Licensed \ iotuailers' Asso- ciation of Manitoba?— Yes. 330.'57. How long have you li\ed in this ]irovinc(? ? 1 have been here six years. 33031^. Did you come from one of the other ])i-ovinces?— F came from .Montreal, Quebec. 33039. Dui'ing the time you iuuc resided in JManitoba, have you li\i'd in Winnipeg most of the time? — Yes, except when J have Ijeen ti'avelling about. 33040. Do you travel much? — I have not travelled nuich lately. Dui'ing the first three years 1 travelled all o\er the country. 330+1. Has your attention been called to the working of the license lau in iliis province? Y'es. 3304'J. How do you find it work? — It is better observed in Manitoba, including M'innipeg, than I found it down below in the east. .S.'iO 1.3. So far as you know, are its pro\ isions well comi)lied u itli as regards the enforcement of the houis jirescribed and the jiersons who may sell? (ienerally : there are always exceptions. There is, of couise, a low class of places in every countiy whei'e you will find the law violated, but, generally speaking, the law is well observed. .3.3014. Are there any suggestions you could oH'er to the Connnission as to amend- ments or improvements to the law with a \iew to making it moi'e etticient ? — If the law was bettei' attended to in regard to its enforct^ment, it would of course, have a better efVect. .33045. Jia\e you any reason to believe tiiat i.dulterated liquor is sold .' In Win- nipeg there is a b( tter class of li(|Uor sold than f have found in any othei' place. T am now sp(!aking of tw(Mity years' exjierience in the li([uor trade. 3304f>. Ha\e you found that the li(pior trafhc has ai v efTect upon the general busi- ness interests of the conununity, that is to sav anv I'flei't of an in jurious character ?-- No. 33047. lias this piovince, during your resi of jio]>ulation and an increase of wealth? — Yes, and it has incieased in prosperity genei'ally. J. K. McLk.nnan. 150 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 llJit'U' first this ulini.' till' lIuTC .hiTf ll'iul- l.nv M'tllT Wiu- T am l)usi- ;is. se of 3.'{049. Can you ;rive iiiiy statistical I'vitlciicc as tM tlic li(|iicii' trade in Maiiituha .' — Ah Secretaiy of tlie Association I sent «»ut ii oifcular to tin- liotel-kt't'|H'i's all n\cf the province, asking them sevei'al (|U('stions. I got a ceftaiii ntimlmi- of rei)lies. ;{.'?0r)0. Have you tabulated them? — I have the total figui'es. I submit a state- ment. [Apjiendix 2.] '?,'$ur)l. fn I'egai'd to hotels, of cviui-se tliey do other hiisiiiess besides .selling lii|Uoi', they entei'tain guests, and they have a nuinbef of emjiloyees wlio aie not connected in any way with the liquor bi'aiicii of the business? T sent out these circulais so as to be able to submit this infoi'iiiatioii to the Commission, .'53001'. This statement does not in-etend to say that all those persons are concerned simply in the sale of liiiuor : but does it no( include the total number of employees in the liotels ? -It would seem to do so. .'5.'iO.').'5. Do you think all the people connected with the hotels would be thrown out of employment? -The statemmt is not intended to indicate tht; nund)er of ]ieople who would be thrown out of employment. The ))eople may lia\e misundersioo(| niy ipies- tions. This, howexcr, is the answer I have recei\'e(l as regards the number of peo])le who would l)e thrown out of ein])loyment, su[)posing a general i)roliibitory law came into foi'ce. In some replies the number merely included the bar-men and the bartenders, and in some cases, I am pretty sure, they included female help. .■53().")1. I notice in your stateiu(!nt that 84 licenses are itist-rted, exclusive of the city of AN'inniiieg? — I have r<'ceived replies from I'o out of the deprived of taking a glass of beer. I think it wotdil fte an interfereni'e with personal liberty. I am op))osed to it on principle. 33071. Supposing such an enactment was passed, could it, in your judu'inent, be enforced ?- Xotoidy would it be impracticable, but it would be impossible. 151 ^^1 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. IVM)''2. Ill ciisc siifli ii liiw wiis piisst'd, (In yoii Im-IIcm' it wmtld he riplit tliat »'(Hii- pensiitinii slimilil In inii Ic to lncwcrs iiiid (listillcrs t'nr Utsy nt' |ilaiit mid iiiiicliiiifi v ?— I)('cid('dly ; not only to Ijivwcis and distilit-rs, l)ul lo iiu-n wlio would he t'oiccd out ot' tlir caliini;. Jiy Rf-e. Dr. Mchod : ■V207''^. Would you j,'o furtluM', and say tliat coin]nMisati(iii should hi' itivm to tlicsc licolilc \\\,n wci't' dcprixi'd of tli(( lihcily of getting a drink ( Tlieiv is no connifiisation that would satisfy such a casi-. /ii/ Jii(f(/<' Mr l) in the ))olice court iccnsees I could not sii .'i.'iO'.Ml. Is tiiere illicit sale l>v licensees, such as selling after lioui> and on Sundav; I lia\e heard of such cases : four of them were lir( lUL'ht uip last we l.'JOl'T. 1 understand that \du are an accountant in --nnic cit\' linn am u It Ii Carey &(' .'i.'iODS. In what trade is the linn engaged .' Wholesale wines ami lii|Uois. .■).'lO'.t!>. I understand that vou are .Sccrclar\ of the l.,iceiised \'ictuallers' A ssocia- tion. What is the ohjcci of that Association.' The hy law of the .\ssociation stat«)S that : " 'I'lic olijcct of tills iissociatiiiii sliall )i(^ tci uiiili' all tlic iiiciiilicis tlicrcet' in a .inciiil (■(iinpiii't f(ir tlic purpose of protect iiii,' tlicii' lights, it'si.stinj; ailiilnirv or iiMJiisl laws icliitin;; to llicir l)Usiii('.'ioii of low iiiiil iiiiliccniscd houses, to iiiaiiilaiii the rcspcctiilijlity of its iMcmlicrs. to )j;allicr ami (li.vsciiiinalc practiccil and iiscfiiliiiforiiKitioii rclatiiii.' to the liadc in nW its ljcaiiiij,'s, to refute and repel the unjust uspcisioiis cast upon the Inele hy many sociilii'd ti'iiipeiiiiice people, ami to vindicate the lltitli liascd upon the e\pei ieiue of all civilizeil eoiiinniiiities ; that lhioiii;li fair and reasonahle lii'cnse laws, properly I'lifoiced, the cause of rational teinperiiini' is most Miitly advamcd ami sustained. l''iiially. to proiiiote social friendship .iml nooil will, c'luoiim^r,. all j.'ood ijualities of head and heart, and keep ^'ood-fellow ship with all true friends of >'i\il ,'ind relijiious liherly. :i:nOO. You think that the trade d Iocs iiccomi) I it does " encoui age all good ipialities of head and heart ".' There a ill every soei(!tv. >lish those results im'iitioned and that re alwa\s it lack sliecii lUl. Y'^ou are associated toijcther to see that all fair nd reasoiialile license law? are properly enforced : does the association do that .' it is only recent ly that weha\i iieeii ori'iinized • >IOl'. How loiiu has thesocicls heeii in e.sisteiice Thri ■I'C imuiths, hardiv that. think. .'f.'ilO;!. His Worslii|i the Mayor has informed us that there has heen ,ui attem|it itliin the last ten days to secure hetter enforcement of the I, tl le associations ai ■ti\ itv '? No. it recently went around and asked the lii'eiisees to ohev the law. IVMOi. Wliy ; Are the members of (h regard to this matter? -Not olhcially. s to pre\tMit the violatiiui of the law ; ai iw. Is t hat I he reason of d I e association co-oper;iting wiili each other in •5.'ilO."). I)id it come to your own kuowledoc that ollicer: aliout to best ir tlieiii- x'Kcs in regard to the enforcement of the law .' Last week four summonses were taken out. .■>;ilOt). Was tluit the ivason you went around and told the liceji.sefi victuallers that they had hetter he careful ? Not that they had better be careful, hut tiiat they should simply ohserve the law. •'{."UU". The association did not assist the olHcers to enforce the law, hut wiien it found that otHcers were going round to look after illicit sale, the licensees were told to be on their guard and were advised to ohey the law. Is that correct'/ — The asstwiation was not aware that the otHcers were making anv extra efforts tu maiiitain tlie law. 153 :^i■ I i \ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I • 50 ■^" IS.: 1.8 1.25 lu U « 6" — ► ~5, ■» S" -^ >/ ''y Hiotographic Sciences Corporation 23 WeST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 145S0 (716) S73-4503 M a. V :\ \ Iv #t^ A <\ w '^o^ ii Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .■{.'tUW. Is it (>n<' rule of your asHiH-iutioii that its ineinlMTs must oln-y tlio liiw ? Yt's. .'{lUUD. NVIieii iiiciiiImts )ir«' known not to oIk'v tin- law, art- tlicy disciplined? Tlipy will Ik' if the matter is hi'ouglit to the association's notice. ;{.'U 10. Is it the case that sonn' of the memlnTs do \ iolate the law f - That has not been done as yet. '.\'M 1 1. Is it the duty of the nieml)ers of the ass(Miation to inform the others alxuit illicit sales? Yes. ■J.'U 12. They have done that? They have not had occasion. .■13ll.'{. Have you any idea that there is illicit sale in Wiimipej^ .' What is your impression from your ohservation or from hearsay? Do you mean by licensed or un- licensed dealers ? •'<3II4. I mean by authorized peo]ile selling .' I have heanl of one case, and that came to my knov/l(Hl;{e inilirectly l)y hap|H;niiig Ut >{o to the |Milice court, where [ fourul a man Ih-Iii^ trie«i on that charge. •V.W l'». You say that there liave Im-cii some licensees Kned for selling after hours? — No, r have said sunuiionesin<; they are lini>d, will the society lake notice of the fact and disci- jline them for violating the law ( No doubt notice will be taken of the fact. 331 19. 1 see you do not believe in prohibition? No. 33120. Your reason for »iot I elievinj^ in it is. I understand, that you think it would Ix- impo.ssible to eariy it out. Why? IJecau.se it xMiuld be an interferen<-e with the lilxMty of tiie subject. 33121. Is the only liberty of the subject the lilM-rty lo drink, or is that his ( hief liln-rty ? — It is one of his chief liberties to decide what he shall «'at and drink, for any man by law has a ri^ht V> decide what he shall ea' and what he shall drink. 3.312'J. You think it would be such an intei-ference that it would 1k» impossiiile to carry out the law? — Yes. 33123. Is it right for parents to protect against what they regard as a nienice to their childien and to the ha|)piness of their families and their homes? A man can pro- test or d I what he thinks proper, but he caiuiot compel me to take his view of the subject. 3.3121. If he regar Is your tiade iis a constant danger to himself and to his Uiys and to his neighbou.r's boys and t«) the <(>minunity ai large, is he right to interfere witii danger ami remove that danger if he can? Certainly, if he can. 33125, Are they right to ask for the overthrow of the drink trade? A man has a right Ut do whate\«'r he thinks proper. The 33127. What is your ojiinion as to ihi^ o \ou put the two cases on the siime level? No. Uiii 1 wouUl as so ii dictate as to what kind of ftNHl a man shall eat as to what he shall drink. If a man wants to drink, let hiui drink. If he mak)>s himself a nuisance or is a burden or inter- feres with other people, then let that man In- punisluHl. .'<.3|.'{2. Then you think ev»'ry man has a right In do what he thinks is propei' f Providing he is not hurting his neighbours. ClIAHLKH H. CoUtJINOLKY. IH'I'?- 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'i.'U .'t.'V If tiif (■itiiiiiiiiiiity tliiiik tliat the drink trailt- is hurtful to its iik-iiiImth, is it. right fur tlit- <-()nihiuiiity to overthrow tli<- drink tiailc? No, I do not tliink so. .'J.'U.'U. Do you l»»'ln'Vt' thcM' is iiiiy ri;;ht aiiyv.ln'rc to interfero with .In- firink tradi'? In wliat way / .131 .'$."». |)o you l;t'li«v«^ it would he riglit for anj" |)ow«m' under any eiirunistanees to iiiteifsed as ftdlowM: — //// Jiulyi- McDdnaht : .'<;U;{!I. AVith what reli;L;ious denomination are you connected ( I am a minister of the Methodist Church, and I am President of the Manitohi and North-west Conference. '•V'W lU. How lon;^ have you resided in Maiiitoha .' For live years. .'5'U4I. |{<'fore you came here where did you reside? I resided in the KeewatMi for a numltor of yeais. It is L'O years since I came to the city. X\\ \'2. From what pi'ovincedid you come.' From Ontario. ;{.'JII.'5. We have had alreiuly hefoi-e the Commission the opinion of the Church i>f Canada on the liipior tratlic, <;iven at the (o-neral Conference in you personidly coiK-ur in that view .' I do : I was a nienilM-r of that Coiiferenire. ■'{."U 1 1. I sup|)ose the action was unanimtius ? Pi'actically s(», I think. •'i."M4."». Ymi concur in it, at all e\ents '. There was no I'eserva'ion so far as I was ciiiicern«Hl. .'t.'U HI. That delixeiaiice was strongly in faxnurof prohihition. Is that ynur opinion also,' Yes. .'t.'U 17. Has the Conference, as a IxHly, passed on the ijuestion of ifranliri!.' compen- sation to l>r<'wers and 'pectel. ])oyou consider the license law itself to he a sin ' To my own mind the tr.iHic is sinful ; and the licensing of it would lie of tin- same charai ter. -■l^U.")'.'. That \ iew, of course, nnist lie taken as i|ualifying an answer J ^'es. .'l.'U'>.'t. hut taking the license law a-^ it is now in e.xistence, are there any ameiid- mentsycu could suggest '. There are amendments I could suggest, one of which is to take away the licenses from saloons and conhne the sale of liipior to houses of puhlic enter- taiinnent. It occurs to me that the sidoons exist merely for the purpose of handing liiplor out to men. That feature of tlie trade should lie aiiolishess. \\\ my opinion the first class hotel is likely to he more sed net i>"; I" I' arranged so that pt'ople entering hy the front door would not see the bar of the hotel. .■J.'M.").'!. WhtM'e wouki you have the har place(i f I woulil have it perhaps on the •'ide, entirely apart from the general tratlic. What I mean is this: the har is easily 166 ! Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ju;c«'H!. .ti**!! tit" w«'iik ii|»|H«tit«'s will visit it on scry slij;ht prrtcxt, wlnM-t'iis f lit'v NMiuld not fill H(i (»t't«'n pmlMihly if tliev Imd to niiiko souit' cHort t<» rt'iwli if. .■{3ir»(>. Would you, tlit'ii. Iiii\t' it «li'tuch«>(l t'roni tin- other |iiirt of llie liousi' .' Yi's. S.'MT)!. Ai'i' tlifii' liny furtJHT sujJKfstionh you ilfsu'c to uiYw '. I hii\f no furtlitT KUi^^fHtions to oH'cr on tliat line. /!>/ Ii>-r. Dr. MeLexl: '.V.Wiif^. Hiis MiinitolMi in its Nortli-wt-st ContVioncc tiikon hoiih' iwtion in tin- din-c- tion of |)i-oliiliition : Iiiih it followed the line of the (ienenil Coiifei-enee and taken strong; iietion in th; i'e;;ard .' i ha\e here itn latest rjeliverance. The lirst six pfovisions that I will present to the I'onuuission were sul>iiiitte<| to the Conference and discussed, and all ai't-epted t>y the Conference without reservation. 1 will read tiie provisions. (Ap|H-ndix ■'{. ) ■'t.'tl '>il. Have you hiid any op|Hirtunity of oliseVvin^ tiie ojieration of the license law and l(J. Have you ol)ser\oyou know what induced the Hudson Hay C'ompany to take that action '. The fact that their ^ains were fall in;; oH". Itinn was very fri-ely used, the hunters were dyinji, the trade was sull'erinji and somethini; must Ite done. The Council came to the iH*Mcue, and at once decided that this must Im- done w hich I have indicatealth and as to the tinaucial retin'iis of the company. .'J.'Jhi! ^'ou Would re;{ard that action as a liusiness one on the part of the Hudson Hay Company .' I think it was, although in their charter there is a r of years. I know a numlN-r of men who were at that time haliitual drinkers, men who weie more or less constantly un.li-r the inlluence of di'ink, who would make any .sacrilice to i t" 'he indivi- •hials themselves, hut to us. Rkv. .Ioiix Skmmkns. yriil'S '^ tllill WHS nasuri> lit' |ii'iiliil)itiiiii ! Tlii-y liad tlial, |ii'ii(-tii-ally, all tin- tiiiu-. Tlic |M'ii|ilr li\i-d in t'urts, and wtTi' |iractieally haiiishcd tVniii tlic fi>iii|iaiiy of wliitv ini-n. Tlu-y wi-i'i- (ifactieally pru- hiliitiiinists, and yet uiidi'i- that syslcin and undi-r tlinse rcstrirtiuiis, .In- evil rn'pt in whifli till- Ciiuncil saw must In- I'lMimvi'd. ;<.'tl7l. H«'s|KTlin;; thf pulilir t'fi'lin;; in Manitolia : do ymi )ii-lii'\i- that tlif ri-ci'iit |ilfliis<'it<' was a fair and hiincst I'xpri'ssiuii uf iId- pulilic- di'sin; and piir|M>sf respecting the li(|uur trad" f I have nu reasmi tn think utiierwise : I have never seen any reason fur thinking; otherwise. I lielieve, so far as the plebiscite went, it was ar. honest expivs- sion of pulilie opinion. ^litl'-. l>o Von consider that the vote was a lar^e one as compared with the vote fur the meinliers of the I,e;;islat Ul-e .' ^'es. .■5.'{I7.{. Jlave you reason, from your kuuwledj;e of the country ami your knowled;;e of the pi'ople. to Ix-lieve that if a general prohiliitory law were enacted, it would lie fairly well enforced .' I shoulil lie ;;uilty of lacking' respect fur my fellow cuuntrymen if I mule a stuleineiit tu shuw that I did nut lieliexe it. .'i.HlTI. So you expect the i'rox incial (iovernmeiit at the next session of the l<«'^i-. lature to intriHluce a measure for prulnliitiun, I suppo.se .' I do not think that I ha\e faith enuu^fh to dare to ex|iecl that much. I have Iiojk', however, that they will mo\e in the rijLiht direction. F would not ha\e prohiliition iiidess it could lie in force constantly. .'i;U7.'i. Which would you prefer. I'ruxincial prohiliition or l^ominion prohiliition ! I Would \ery much prefei' hoininion pruhiliiliuii. ^l.'UTli. In vuur upiniun would the hominion (iuvernnii'iii >uliniit a iaruer ;iiid more perfect measure '. Yes. /»// ./ii(/.. "^tt. That was the I aw until reci iitlv .'i.SISl. We have evidence liefore the Commission from the manager of the store.s here that the Company deals in lit|Uur in this city ,' Ye-, | was speakinj; ahout Kecwatin. entirely. The Commission adjourned I icars. mure •I it ; m Liquor TratHc — Manitoba \V[NNII'K(J, OituU-r -JTtli. 1S9J. The CoiiiiiiiHMion met tlii.s day at I ! a. in. JuuoK McDonald. Hkv. I>i<. McLkud. Tmi-; JIdn. .inllN SCIU'LTZ, Lieut. (Jim-nior of ^[llllit<>lM^ aj.pean-d Ix-fdif the CiHiwiiissioK ami |it'eHeiite(l a written .statement, whieh wa.s reiul, as fuilow,s : Td the lliMiDiiraltle the nieiiibei's of tiie Uoyal Cuniinission on the Liquor Tratlie in session at Winnipeg. (lentlenien, .'Ctlf^lct. In re(|uesting nie to make a statement iM't'oi'e you upon the various inattecs within the s('o|)e of your Connni.ssion, I inilatin;j mainly to that part of the |)ominion with which I am most familiar, \i/., from Ontario to the Kocky ilountains ami ])articularly to Manitolia. Passing I>y the first of these subjects to deal with it inclosing this statenieni, I have to say regarding No. 'J, that I ••anie to this country in lf«i(); that the conditions then ohiaining were, civil goM-rn- ment i)y the Hudson Hay Conqiany. whose chief resident otlicial was styled the (Jover- nor of Assinihoia, aided hy a Council .selected hy the Hudson l>ay Company's directors in [jondon, whose finictions were atlvisory and legislative rather than executive ; the circidar Teiritory thus governed Iw-ing called " Assinihoia," the extent of which was a radius from Cpper Fort (Jarry of T)!) miles. Atnoiig the laws passed hy the (io\ermtr and C'omicil in IHCii', were the following relating to fiu'iiishing the means of intoxication to Indians : " If liny |)('i'!«iii, witiioiit iliHtiii('tii)ii of riic'c, xuppiy •>!' soli to any pi'ismi ixipuliirly know as an Iniliaii, oi' any ini>inl>cr of an Ip.ilian nation, the means of intoxication, he !|iiivalent, not lieiiig money itself, lieiiig valued for the purpose at prime eoMt. If an intoxicated Indian eomniil or threaten to eominil an iinprovoketl violelici', lii> may he impri- soned, in addition to any spueitic piiiiishmuiil, till hu primeciite the |>ura*i fiirly in Jiinuiirv, |Ht')ti, and in the sprinn, full iind wintiT »it' IMCiH: — It hIiiiII III' likwfiil for lilt' Ik'Iii'Ii of tiia^i.'l iimli-r om- pilloii, anil all iinantitii'H of U'lr iiiiilrr ri^>lit gall xliall III iitfil irtaili ; tin- hiiiii of ten |huiiiiIn In- |Nkiil for a liri'ii.si' m> isNiii'il for tlii' sali- liy I'l'tail of iM'i'r aloiii- ; ami any iirrHoii Hi'iling HpiriiN, wini' ir In'rr liy rrlajl, witlioiii hihIi Ijii'iiki', uliail oil ronvirlion iH'fori' a iH'tty I'oiirt. on tin- mktli of our or nioi'i- witni'.iHC!!, for rarli oll'i'iiri', pay a lint' of ti'ii poiiiiilH sti-rliiiK, anil III' iinprisoiii'il until tin- liiii' Ih' |iaiil oiii' half llir liiii' nliall ;.m to tlir info' -in'r, ami tlir furin of tlir lii-riiNrs Hliall Ik- ari'orilin>{ to hi'IiiiIuIi' A or ll; any otl'i'mi' apiinNt till' pi'ii\ JMionN of wkiil lii'i'iiHt' shall III' |iaiil liy forfi'ltiiri' of thi' Maiiir : ami in ailililimi. In caxi' of infriirtion of thr proviHJonH of said liri-iiNi'.s as ri'ganls liuliaiiN, thr otU'inlrr shall pay tlir sprrial pi'iialty for fiirnisliing the nican.H of intoxiration to Imlians. Til)' license issued under this last pi'ovisiun niiule the retail i|iiaiitity anythin;; lei-li> ve ualluns, anil I siiliject III the fniliiwinj; feslriet ions : It eiillld liiil liesiild lietween iini the hiiiii's (if nine at ni;.'lit and six in the niiirniii l'rii\ince of Mikiiitolm eiupiiwered liiiii, with the assisiaiu f a Council, to make and enforce laws tor all of the Canadian Noi'th-wesi, and this Council jiassed a ;;enei'al proiiiliilion law, which was I'ufoi'ccd l»y the employment of the Mounted I'olice, H foi-ee raised partly for that |iur pose, who promptly repressed the armed liipior forts known as "Stand-oir" anil "Whoop-up ' and prevented the emplnymenl o^" liipmrfor tradin<,' purposes in the Nm'th West. When railroad construelinn commenced in the North-west, a prohiliitiNc nieasiire was adopted liy the hominion Parliament in those clauses of the I'ulilic Woik>.\i't which relate to the lino of construction and its immediate neiirhlmurhiHHl. The powers of the first Niirth-west Council ceased when a sepai'ate ( JnM-rnmi'iil w as i,'i\cn to the Xorlh west Territories in l>>H7, and the various restriclixi d lllliltive them. « )rd MUinces o f llv virtue of I he followin'' clauses of Caji. ."i;{ of the hominion Consolidated Statutes of ISSll : - l'H(>miUTM>\ OK INTO.XU'AXT.S. M.'i. No intoxicating lii|iiiir or oilier intoxicant shall lie inannfactnreil or iniule in the saiil ilis trict, except liy special perniiHsion of the (iii\ernor in Ciiiincil, nor shall any into\icatiiig lii|nor or iiiiiixicaiit Ih' ini|Mirteil or liroiight into the District froin any I'roviiice of Canaila, or efsewhere, or i:i 159 *^ if i; •) Liquor TrafTlc — Manitoba. Im' niiIiI, i-X('Iihiiu<>iI, ii'iuIi-iI, or liitrlci'i'il. cxii-iit liy H|M!ciiil |M>riiii>wii>ii, in writing, ot llii' Liriiti-nant lioVdllnr. ;w V 411, 'A, iMiri. 'M\. liiliixiiatiiiK lii|iiiii'N ami intiixiriintM iuipiii'lvil m' lirmi^lit fioiii any plucc mil of Cuniula into tiir DiNtiirt, liy special |M'iiiiiAMirin. in wi'itiiiu, of ilu' Iji'iituniini'tioviTnor, Nlmll Ih' Miiliji-ct tntlu' iiHliiniH anil cxcinc laux •> f (• :«7. If tiiv NMi'li nitiixKati i"H 1" 40 V, i|iiiii' or I !t. /Milt. ntoxiianl in nianiifa<.'tnifil or niailf in tin- hiNiricI, iin|Mii It'll or l.roii^lit into llif Hanir, or it miM, cxclian^i'il, trailnl oi luiitcrt'il, in \ inlalioii of tliix Alt, it MJiall III' foifi'ilril, ami may lie Mt'i/.ni liy aiiv olliri-r of the riistoniM or cxciHc, or liy aii\ conx' Uilili illu'i iliily i|Ualilii'il prrson \^ lii'ri'MiH'M'i' toiim III. plaiiil n.'tili' lii'lorr liiin, any jiiilp', ^itipcmliarv nia^ist lalc or jiintiri' ol tlir |M'ai'r. Ill I'oniplaiiit ax afori'saiil, may innui' a Ncari'h M arrant, aM in laNi's of nIoIi n )jooiIn iimlei tlir "Art rcHpfriin^ pioi'i'iliiii' in < 'riminal Case- wlu'iitlir Haiiir iK foiiiiil. may raimi' it to lir f.irlliMitli ilcHtroycil : ami tlir Hlii ly. k «■>!. I» itNi', Imx. |Nirkiit!i' III' I'l'ri'plalili' w liciu'c or ill wliirli any iiitovii'alin>; lii|ni>r or intoxiianl liaH lii'i'ii niaiiiifarliiii'il. imporlril or niailc, noM, (•vrliiin^'ol, traili'il or liartt'icil. ami ai wrll that in wlilrli tlir ori^jiial niipply ^sa^' roiitaliu'il an tin' vi'mhcI \\ lici'i'in any p'irlion of smli original Hii|ip|y wax Niippliril ax afoii'saiil. anil till' rt'inainili'r of till- I'oiili'iits llii'ri'of, if .siirli .still, mai'liincry, liar- III. ki'^'. r.i' moiety of .-neh |>en,ilty shall lieloiiu to the inforiner, anil the olhei inoiety shall l>eli>ii^ to Her Majesty for the piililie use if ( 'aiiaila. ;«s V ;i's, iiiiiles or liarters an intoxiratnit.' Iii|iiiii' or intoxiianl, exiepl ii\ spnial permission as aloreMjiiil, or in wh ■se premises snh inlovieatin^' lii|iior or intoxieaiit ot any kiln foiinil. not exiee the infoiMier. '.ix \' iliii^ two liiinilreil ilollars ami not Ii'.sh than tifty ilollars. a moiely of w wl lose IIOS all Illrlir hi h si all srMsion or I pelia 4!l, '4, /«((■'. illK to ■ 74, /nil rly of w hirli penally shall liiloii^; to the informer. .'tS \'., r. 4:1, 40, KMiy arliile, ehallel, I'ommoility or tiling, in the piinhasi'. aenni«iliiin. i'\ihaiii;e, tra'le or li.irler nt whirh the roiisiileralioii. eil her w hollv ■r III part, is any intoMialin^' lii|iior or iiiloxii-anl. lall lie folfeiteil to ller Majesty . ami shall lie seizeil iis hereililiefole proviili-il in respi'it to ali\ reeitptiii'le for any inloxiialiii^ lii|Uor or inlo\i ant. ■AH V «!>, 74. iKir/. 41. Kvery |«'rsiin who refuses or ne>;leils to aiil any loiislalile, snlii'onslalile or other iliiU aulhoi i/e.l person in ihe exeiiilion of any ait or iliily rei| liieil iimler any of t le SIN si'i'tions ni'xl preei'iliiij;, or wlm knowinttly refuses lo;;ive inforiiialinn. or j.'ivis false informalioii in resperl to any nmliiil ilollars ami not less than nailer arising iheretioiii. sli.ill iiuiii a penalty not exreeilini; two hi fifty iliillars, a moiely .if w liirh penally shall lielopif.' to Ihe iiifiniiier. .'(S \', 40. 4, imiL 41. Kvery penalty imuiieil iimler any of the si'mh scrtions next preieiliiij,' shall lie reioM'lalile. with losis of pnisi'ini ion. liy siiminai y loiix iri imi. on I he e\ iileiire ol one ereililile w it m ss, liefme any jmljie. siipiniliary maj;istrale or jiistne of the peaie liavini; jiii isiliriimi in the ilistiiri; ami sii, h ,1'i lipeniliaiy nia^'isl rate or jiislii'i' it till jieaie slia II. payment of ihe penalty . pay the Informei Ills share Ihereiif : anil in ease of nun payment of the penalty ami the losls imiiieilialely after eonvii- lion, the iiinv iitiiij.' jinliie. maj,'isirati' or jiisilir may. in his ilisrreliou. levy Ihi' same li\ ilistrt'ss ami lie, or eommit the person sn tonv irieil ainl niakinu ilefaiilt in payment of the .s.iiil pnialty ami eosts. " ' ip hiiiisr within the ilistiiit. for a term not exeeeil re sooner paiil, ami, iipiin lonvii'l Ion for a snlisi III any lonimon jail or hill isf of eiirrei'lion or iii^ six months, unless the sai.l penally ami < 1.11 k n OS s a 1' na pieiil oH'enie. the iilFi inlir shall lie lialile to a penally Hot exieeiliii^; four lliniilreil iloll.irs ami not less han Iwo liiniilreil ilollars. ami in the ilisiielion of the lonviitiiij; jmlp', nia|i;istrale or jiistiee, to ihan Iw iinpri.sonineiit fm a term not e\i lini; six months ,"IH V 4!t, i4. 4:t. N II .sel/nre, piosi'riilioli, loiiv let mn II I'liinmilinent iimler this .\( t shall lie invaliil for want if form, so liin^ as the same is aeenrilini; lo the true intent ami nieunin^ of this .\el. ,'iiiiiiiiiiiii |ii'(iliiliitiiiii ciiactiiii-iils iioveii'tl all tlial part nt" Catiada, i'X('i'|it .Maiiitolia, wliieli lit'.'< iM-twet'ii ( Mitarin ami Iti'itisli ('iijiiinliia, aiiil lii'tweni tlio .Slates iif .Miiiiicsuta, .N'nrtli Dakuta ;iii(l .Muntaiia In llic iiorliu'rii liiiiil nf Caiiaila ami tiie imrl li-ca.' I tdiniiiinii. As I am imt alilt> In speak tVuiii .tetual kmiwlcd^ro of tlu* mrasiiri-s wliicli iiavi' lieeit aiiopt(>(l ill other CDiiiitries with a view to les.seii, i-e;;iilate ami pi-ohihjt the litpiiit- 1 ratiie, 1 will ])ass III) lo the ('(iiisiileratioii of the third of tlu> heads ut' yuiir im|uirv, viz.: .'1. The fi'sult of the measures in eaeh ciwo. Hon, John Sciilltz. 1(J0 to any cr iliily |l!« lli'M t 111 ;iiiy s tliali III. M'tuldf. toiT liny I.I sll.'ll 11*111 HUM ■ iiinvir li'ss aiiil ii.l.-.>»l>- cXll'l'll 1 sulisr 1 nut l'"*'- lli.tirf. til fill Wiilit . 4!t, ». tcllllflll^ ai'io iiinl llltiUlil to live liot'll )!• I iiitlii-. :i. Till- 67 Victoria. ScMsional Fhjx)i-h (No. 21.) .\. 1894 This l>i'iiii;s iiif to sjifiik nt' t Ih- tii'Hi ri-xt rictivi' iiicasiiri'H (if tlii> IIikIhoii May I'oiiipanv's Disti'ifi fit" .VssiiiilKiiii. An to tlu-.Hf, | Imvc tu stale that tin- in|iihi Ik' t strin;i<'nt wliirh hail t'or its havr said tliat \vh<-n I'anada oli AssiiiilNiia lii|iior law was tfin|>oi-ai'ily cunl iniicd and the results Wfi'c alnait tlit> sanii> iim 1 istn ol jc«-t ta nt'd l'l>aiirc, it W.i^ Ih-Ii '\im| th.tt o l'i';,'tllatio|i i-nilld tlif |ii'i'\i-nt io'i lit' lii|iiiii' st'llin;.' tn In lians. I in .Aiiijtist, IS7U, |M»sst'SNiiin ut' the coimtiy, ih b.'f. Tin- si'fiind ol' the ini-asin'*-s which I li:i\c nicntioiii'd, \i/..: I'roliiliitiM' .\«'ts of till- tii'st Coinii-il t'lifthi' Nnilh west. thf Noftli wot Miiinitt'd Poli('i',aiidtlii-la\\ IrssiK I'lc s|i<-i'dily |iiit intii cxiTiilinn liy an aiiiit'd fofci rss, \ loieiict', (ii-iinK<'iiii('ss and del )aiicniTV consriiiifnl iiiHin tile I'onditions wliich tlicn oUtanicd in soinc |i.ii'ts ot' thf Noftiiwi'st wi>i'i> innni'dialcly ii'jiifsscd, and I'oi- tin- lirsl time sinci> lii|iioi iiad lirsi i-eai-hi d tin- l'ii';;ans. llir IiIoimIs. lihu'kt'iTt and pait of ihi- ('riTs, tin-ii' cutinliv could l>c ti'.ix cfscd iii safely. I nilcclloii the exieiisjiin of mission ellnit was L;i\cn and the \n a v made clear for t re.il les w 1 th fi dal oi'iindaitle aiKl wt -II li'ilx dm I ia\e iH'Ver since l)rok en llieir I le.'ity sti|iiilalions, the Intliaiis receiving' foi their rolM- and furs siili>tantial \ahie instead of til" liijiior, which was iM'fore the |irinci|ial article of trade. Withotit the prohiliilions tiii-n adiipted and enforced, it smuiIiI lia\e i)cen dilliciiit to tre:it with, and |iractic;i||y ini|Missi l>le t. ivcrn the trih ihich I it (VI- nientiniicd. It aided aUu the setlleinent if tl le cmintfy ; wealthy parents n f di Ited soii^ saw in it. the ineaiis of refuiin ani pros|«'iity, and money was freely pro\ idcd to such settlers liy tho e interoted in their welfare, diiriii;; the periiKJ when prohiiiition ohtuined, and it was dmilitless the saKatimi (if manv olhi-rs liesides those who came under my own notice. I'.issin^ nil to the proliiliiti\e incastiie emlioijied in tin- I'nlilic Wniks .\ct ; I h.nc implc ii|ipiii'ttinity in tlii- pro\ in In linu' early ailway construction, of jinlnini; o: had f its ellects, and e-|ii-cially as I had oppnrt iiiiil ie. nf ciimpaiini; tin- cnndilions w liicli ohtained on oiir railway construction with tlmsc ti|ioii the Northern I'acitic and It her Mini lesi I ta railway ines. On the oust met lor of till- I'einliina liranch of th Canadian I'acitic Hailway and on tin- e.isli-rn seciion of the ( 'aii:iili.iii I'.uilic Mailw.'iv, iie.ircst to Winnipe,'. the cl iiises nf the I'nlilic Works .Vet W'li- ii;,'idly enl'mci'd, while on the const riicl ion of the American lines nientioned rnlil»-iy, miirder, dchaiicheiy and drtmki'iiness kept pice with the ^jradiin; and was mcre^ised with the tiiiok layin<; of tlie>c lines. I haye no hesitation in st.ilini; my lielief that railway const nicl ion in Manitolia has Ih-ch nnmarred liy a siiiLfle crime of a serious nature, and tlial this i>, du<- to the fact that in this cas,- pmhihit ioi did inohihit. .\uil while I am spc.ikiiii,' of railroads, I desiretostitetli.it I hue ijond icasnn fm lielii-v in< that th) ik.'dih immunity of tho Canadian Pacific Hallway frnin ciillisinii and wre. k is as niiidi dm- to the rule nf that (^lm|lany nnt tn emplny in any cn-acity. when- the liyes nf passe n^-ers are endaiiu'ered, any in.in who is known to drink while on duty, as it is to iinsleepini^ w.itihfiilness of th;it (Jonipany on the liridi;es, ctilverts .md dani.'erotis p.irts of their iiiailway, ami on their motist- power. In s|>eakin;; of the practical results of the prohihitive Act whii-h relates to the histrictof Keewatin, I d in the attainment of these I IV the commissioned olliccrs of the lliidsnn l>,iy Company, liy the missiimarie.H ill tin- Di'-.trict. liy the justice nf t In- pi-aci- an I liy .1 cnmniissinni-d nlllcer and ti\e cmis- lalilesof the Norllivvcst .Mounted I'olicc who have undertaken the duty of a watei patrol nil one of the most ex|M>s)>d parts of the di trict. and t at this ,1 id has made prohiiiition pro liiliit : ami the dire<-t results are that in four years no i-riim- has In en committed, and no ,'ieater coiuparatiye iidyanci has lieen made in the woik nf ,inv mission district anvwher«« in the Northwest. I ap]>eiid for your infnrmation the form ni' |ieiinit used, twn <;allnns to line person t'or medicinal purposes only I'cins; allowed for one yi-ar, the application t'lr which has to Ix- recommended l»y a justice of the jieace, a missionary, or the he.ifl nf tile Indian Department of th(> llud.soii I^av Company here. Exceptions are only iiiiul«> in the case of sacrainental wim*. With respect to soctiil riiiivirtiiiii liif «-<)nviii<-cin|N>i-uiui> WdrktTs luivc niadf to clicck or Icnscn tin- fviU caiist-d liy intoxicanlH. Till' fll'iTl of sui'li a nicasiin' as has Ih-cii asked for in ihf rtMfnl |ilfl>iNi-it«>, would, in my opinion, iN'ni'lit our MK-iai condition and uur industrial ami nminifn'ial inUM't'sts. I do hot think that th<' T-t'vcnui-s of hui'Ii rural iniinicipalitics as I am familiar with Would lir injui'i-d liy such a law, and whili- in the casf of cities and towns the re>enue wouhl Im- decreased to the e.vteni of the auiounts collected for liceiiws, yet I am of the opinion tiial this uould \h- more than count erlwiianeed hy the saving; in jxilice, lire anil other costs of pnit<>ction to life and |>ro|M>rty. As to the |M)HMihilily of enfoicinf; a |)roliiliiti\<> law, I aui of the opinion that such a law can 1h- enforceil, and in fa<-t it Would Ih- insult in^' to the well known law ahidin^ spirit of the |M>op|e of this province to suppose that infrat'lions of it woidd come from within : and in endeavourin;; to estimate the chanci-s of infraction from without, I have arrived at the conclusion that, considered from a ;;eo;rrapliical |Hiint of view, no province of the i>ouiinion is so well situat<*il for the enfoi-cement of |iroliiliit i\'e measurcN. 'rwo-thirdsof our frontier on theson a state which has adopted prohibition. On the east we have oidy one avenue for the intitKluction of litpmrs, a railway connniniication (the Canadian Pacific Uailway), easily controlled : on the noi'th a prohiliitive district and on the west Territories which are not likely for years yet, to Im- a source of that portion of our frontier on the south which joins on the State of Minnesota ; yet it will '!(' remenilM-red that a Mounted Police force patrols alonj; the lNiun o|M'n for the succ«'ssful secretion of such stills on our side, and it must 1h- rememhered that the punishment for the owner of sui^h still on the rnit«'d States sid<' is as ;;reat as on ours, and the ownei- would rmi the risk of the infraction of the law of his own country and of this. Kimilly, re<;ardin|{ the smu;;;;lin^ of ordinary liipior from the l'nite<> rememhered that the price of such is larj^ely in e^-'-s, of the present jirices here, and therefore t here would 1m' less inducement. And on the other hand, while more profit could Iw had now in smu^^^lin^ Manitoha liipior into l>akot4i, I have rea.son U) U'lieve that, thou ;;h their frontier is far removed from their .seat of < o>verinn<>nt, the meiiHUres adopted hy them have In-en (piite sutlieient to keep Manitolia litpior out. In fnim authoritative otiicial sources. I have alluded to the iMMieKt to the Indians accruing fitim prohiliition meii.sures in the north ami north-west, and I de.sin' to luld a few wonls rejfardin;^ the Jndians of Manitrtion than fonnerly of married people with families, and the increaHenditure for intoxioatini; dritftH which, even if the practice was harinlesN, is not justifie*! in a new pnjvince, which p«i88e8seH no weultliy leisure cla.ss, wlwre every one is a worker, and the avera){e «»f our jieople much younjjer than in the older provinces. Ho.v. .loiiN SCIIULTZ. 162 67 Victoria. Sessional Piipers (No. 21.) A. 1«94 It in <>ft«'ii assorted lliikt I In- list' (if lii|iiiir in iiccuHMurv with mmmi wini liiivc tu iiiiilcrpt iiniiNUiil iiikI Iiiii^ i-f (his liKSfrtinn, tlif tlu'cf iiiilitui'y I'XiM-diiiiiiis to tliis fiiimtiT. 'I'lif lii'st of iIichc wh.s in IS |ti, wlicn MX) int-n of the tith Koyul Inftinlrv, with it snmil ilftui-hnit-nt of the Koytil Ai'tilliM-y iirid Sii|>|it>rH and Miners wi'r«' «»'nt to Iti'd Uivci' ScttlcnH'Mt hy way of ^'o^k l''aake \Viuni|H>^ and the sea, a ntinilM-r of six and three |Miunder liras.s ^'tins, mortars, sliot and shell, and immense ijuantities of military stores, without any hut the usual rations iM'iii;; Ki-rxed out. 'I'lie next Pensioners of the Itoyai Canadian iJitles came o\-er the same route in \MS. and more recently the U'tter known expedition of l^ord (then Colonel) Wolsely with a Caiuidian anil British expeditionary force, which nuule them- selves and their comnuinder famous for the physical ohstacles which they ovei'came, had simply a doulile ration of tea and not one drop of spirituous liipior. The ollicial report of the ;;reat commander ascriJM-s the healtii of his men and the s| d of the expedition partly to that fact. Mis enforcin;; prohiliition anion;; tro.ssil)le Work, and Wet for days trtion to which I have rtft'ired. I am, giMitlemen, lespeotfuilv yours, JOHN SCHULTZ. WiNNiPKii, 27th Ootoher, 1S92. h '! I The CoiiiinisHiuii adjouruiHl, to niet't in braiidon, 1^' !' il 21— llj** 163 I ' Liquor TralTlc — Manitoltti. llMANlxiN, n,iMl«i Jittli. 1892. TIm' Hoyal CoiiiinisHidii on tin- Lii|Uiii' 'riiitlic iidI Imii' i|ii-< ilav. Phkhknt : JriNiK MrlUiNALO. ItKv. |)i(. MiLkoii. .JiiM.K .M<|i<»NAU». ill ii|>«-iiiii;; the |)r(KM'(«liii;;s, Maid 1 1 ml a> tin- Koviil Cdiii- iiiisMidii hail Ufii n-iul in \Viiiiii|M'^, t\w ii'iuliiiu iiii;;lil lie (liH|MMisfil witli licif, anil the Coiniiiissioiifis wiiiilil at ihr liusiiii^ss, thi- usual riili- iN-iii^ fol- Idwcii of calling oltii'ials as tlii> first w itiifssi's. JollN r.\MIM»KN To!U>. VnVu-,- MiiKiHtrati- of P.m.iilon, on U-in^' duly Hwuni, iIi'JhisinI as tuilows : Jii/ ,/iit/t/f Mi-lhiiiiilil • .'{.'UM2. How Ion;; have you liMii in I'l'aiidon f AIhuiI II vi*ars. .^■{1 ■*<."l. Mow loiij; lia\»' you Ikm-ii I'oiirc Ma^iistiatc .' I liaM' Im-cm I'olii-i' Ma;;istmt<*, I lliiiik, liM- yt-ar- ; I liavf Ix-cn a .liisticc ot" the I'i'acc licrr i'ii,'lit vcars. ."{IHNI. I 'id you foinc Ikti' t'loiii one ot' tlit- ollirr |Hd\iiu'osN I faiiii- tiom ( hitario, ori^riiially. I c-anie iliri'ct t'loiii San FraiiciM'ti to liiiiiidon. ! \vi>iit troin Toronto to San Francisco and troiii San Francisi-o iicri'. I \«as t'onncrly of 'roroiito. Ontario. .'t.'i I >'•"). Ihirinir tin- time you lia\c Imtii in lliis couiiti v, liaM- \ou notii cd any clian;;e in the social custom- of tin- |'co|ilc in i fi;anl to tlic lie of inloxicatiiij.' li(|uors .' i your opinion, is less of -iicli liijuors us«mI tlian I'orincrly '. I do not think tlicrc lias Im'< , n ucli clian;;)- diirini.' that |>i-ri'<>. I'oyou mean pro|Mirtionately .' Yes. .■13187. What is your jurisdiction? \!y jurisdicl inn is the Piii\ ince of ManitolHU 3;Jl8S. I mean what is your juri diction in leji.uil to the cases that come iM-fore you ? — 1 adjudicat*- on .-ill cises that come up in the poiici' couit. every kind of ollence, such as drunkenness, disorderly condin-t, in fact e\ei ytliin;;. .■{."US'.*. Itreaches of the city hylaws and ordinani-e>, I siippo-e .' ^■es. ."t.'UlXJ. I)o vou take preliininarv hearing; in cases sent for trial to other courtH? — Ye.s. .'{.'{191. How do you fin>rr Voll III II Vl'Ill' N..I t' I'lilll llli'llliiI'V. ■I.'tl '.*t°i, ||j(\f Mill nil |iti\ati- i-)Tiiii| tliat xmhiIiI sIiuns tiir iiiiiiiIh-i '. Nh. •(•nxi> liiw as I'l'nniil-" ^I'ilmi; (liinni; |iiiiliiliiti'i| li< .' N'l"., .'I.'U'.I'.I. I >•■ yuii aj-ii liiiij in i'a-atiM||y 'I'lii'i-i' iirc riuii's nf that kiiiil. Iiiit still nut a i;rcat iiiaiiv. nil*' in mil' cuiirt tlic nia|iiritv ai'c i i;ii|i-iit> ami anotliiT tliini i'iiiii|iuM'ii i>l' tin- lluatiiii.' )>ii|iiilatii I iiiakr it a ii'.lf in tin .li iiii't that \^ III |>aiti> iiiii' ii|i \i'iv tri'i|iii'nt ly in ini|HiH(> sii Hi-MM'i* a |iiinisliiiiiMit that it will |irii\i' a li'ssun In thi'iii. :t:l:.'(l|. |>ii y ot' tlir man who I'tiini'H ii|i |-i-|H>ati-ill\, lii> litV is alinoHi \ a |ii' ssimi tVoin tin' saJiNin (■• tin- jail aii 1)1 t'i'i'<|iiriit ly iniini-iin him, m- wmilil it Im' In'tti'i' tu rominit liiin tnr a lun^'i'i' tiiiii' to some institution whrii- In- mi^ilit |w)s>ili|y ri't'iiini, or at all rvriils Im' krpi a|iart tfoni tli< i-fst ot' till' |>ulili<' .' That is a ijillii-ult i|iifsti im|Misitioii of tiiii-s rtiluo's ilniiikfiiiii'ss, Im>i'iius<< h mini who is aiiilictfil to li'|u<.; will liaNc it no mattiT what tin- r. >nsiM|ii)-iii iiiKlt'i' out' law ■ I cannot llii|i|'|smi a Im'. So far as in)|>risonini'nt is coiki'I'iii-iI, In-ii till' liiir is |iaiil. As a riilr llif tiiif i- |>aia\ it hinisi'it. lir will lia\<' some frit'iid who \\ ill pay it i'orliiin. So as a I'lili- tin- fine is paid, • vij i liasc had vi-ry fi-w casi's. rtt all I'M-nts until •|int4« ii'i'ciitly, wlii'ti |Mirti«'s liavf i<«-«'n iiiipiisoni-d iH'i-aiisi- tlii'ir lini's liavf not In-i'ii paid, 'i'liis siimnifi' tlii'i't- has Im'i'ii i|iiit<' a Itoatin;; population in tlir city on account of tin- jHililic works ;.'oin;.' on. which havi- Im-cii the means of luin^'in^' in a <.'rcal maiiv i"U;.'h characters, and within tlie last two wts-ks I ha\e had < for lion payment of tine-.. iccasion to cmninil several parties :\:\20: !>• M'S VOUI reeiillectioii of Toronto ''<> liiick to the time when the not orimiH character, Harry Henry, whose terms of iniprisonineiit ran up to hundreds, w as alixe f - No, I was oiilv liviiij.' in Toronto for a few veai's ; I came oriifinallv from the ("ouiitv of Peel. .■(."(I'O.'t. |)o you think imprisuiiinent in such cases works any reformation.' No, I do not think it dm-s. I liHik ii|Mtii imprisonment in this way: when persons are im- prisoned it hardens them : they Im-coiiii' callous and inditlerent, and they would as soon lie sent to jail as not. .■{.'I'JO I. Taking the cases of crime iii\esti;;aled iM-fore ymi and sent to other coui-ts for trial, do vmi tiiid anv larye iK-rceiita lie to the excessiM' use ot intoxicating' iii|iiors ! - I mi^ilit say that I liave found it to Ih' the eiwe. .'$;<;.'()"). Kroin yoiir ex|H'rience in liearinu eases "f ln'cach of the license law, can you make any suggestions to Her .Majesty >( 'uinniissioners which they iniLrht report to Parliament, that would tend to improxc tlic law f The only sii!.';fi'si ion that I can possiliiy make, if it can Im' d one. Will Id Ik pure |irohiiiii ion ;?.'{:!U(i. 1 itiii speakiii); generally and with s|>ecial reference to the license law which \oii have in foi-ce. Can voti suir^est aiiv ainendinent to that law f I do not know that can ilo so I :{:{-.'07. I lie made? '1 lessen drinkii durin.i; the A !•"• cents a ^I then as then Do VI 1 III think 'h. ceiisi ' fe '«. it fact. I d ine ri< an ri liell iss ai IS id l>r whei iiid^ w liiji the I; iw in itN present form is as pci-feci a license law as can d K inci o nut think it woiili ion. W'liiskv d, liiit it is a i|iie>tioii wlietl er that would Id. Take, fur insian th peril <1 Was su VMl Id mi the other side uf the line for L'." oi- y fur .""itt cents a j;lass. and yet there was asinucli liipiui'drank ee was increased I he sellers ii'i, tlie iliirsoldat 10 cents. If the license f iild lia\e to increase the price ot' drinks, and I du nut think that wuuld if li ii|uur. .'i.'ll'OS. Wuuld it diminish the nunilier of license! d pi plan Tli( ■re is a i|Uestion ilioiit that, and I doulit wlietiiei- it would have any etl'ect either w'tiy. If a jM'rson wants 165 ■1 '!*~ ■B Liquor Traflfic — Manitoba. to t li<|U(ir in tin ordinary nmnlx-i' of iilaccM, anil if till' tradf is |•l•^tl•i^tl•ll by liiyli lii-'-nsi- tVi-M, tlii' i-tli-rt will Im- to ili-i\e tlii' tmilc to tliosi* who paiil thi'si' hi;{h lici'usfs. I i|ui-stion very nnu-h il' that would ri'diifi' di'inking. ;<.»L'U!». Would it not ledui-i' the ti'Uii)tatioii ? J think not. •'i-'il'lU. HaM- you men in your i'ni|ilo\-nii'nt who find it ditlii'ult to resist the temp- tation to drink / Suppose a man trayels thirty miles in the eountry on business and has. inly ti ne taxerti, is not the temptation to drinlv less than if he had to pass liye th ta\erns ') Tliat mijiht Iw true if the proposition was to reduce the numl)er to that extent. .'l.'i'_M 1. The pro|iusition 1 sulimitted to you was whether the reduction of the num- ber of j daces would lessen the evils that result from driiikin;; and from the ti-at!ie? — I have heard that ijuestion ar+,'ueil a j;reat many times, Ixttli in tin,'- country and in the I'nited States, and it seems to bi' the p'n<'ral opinion that people who are in the habit of drinkin;; will ;;et liipior. even if they lia\r to i.;o miles to i;et it. •'fl'Jll.'. Kroiii the slatein'-nt you have made I ^father that, in your opinion, |irohibi- tion is the only measure iliat would reduce drinkin;; '! I think so. .'i;{LM;5. Do you think such a meiusure could be .so eH'ectualiy worked as to do away with intoxicatinji; liipior '( — It iiii<;ht be eH'ectualiy worked, but it would be hard tf)do.so. ■■{■■<"J I I. What dilliculties would you a](prehend ? I woidd apprehend ditlieullies in In case of projiibition, ' luor would be snuii,'j;led, and it woidd reach i'ami- ] had .1 I'a.se before me a day or two a;,'o of a party whi> many ua\> lies that do not have it n was summoned for .sellini; liipior without licen.se. There was nothiiijL; before me to show that he had done .so. }[e sold liipior of siinu> kind that he claimed was a iiatiM' wine, but I do not think th as any doubt that the native wine was adidterated or mixed with other liipior, althoUffh there was nothinj,' before the court to show it. l)urin;,' the examination of the jiarty, I found tliat there was a room in his building where thi-re were glasses on the table ami bottles of ;;in. Tom, Dick and Harry could i,'o there and drink what they pleased. That appeared Iwfore me in evidence. •'(■"^I'l"). Was that within the city ? -No ; it was in a rural tlistrict. Hf coursethere nothing; to show that the pro|)rietor or owner of the building; was connected witliit. sui,'i;est ion was made that it was brouj^ht in by some outside party, that he wa Th treating; th iMiys at way. That is onrotecteil tiiem in carryinif on their business as it seems to have done, it would hardly be I'easonable, rijfht or proper to cut away their return and earnini;s without makin>' reconipense i I" expense for their )ilaiit, and |iaid their tiiiile, and they have th in some way. Th ley have I'one to a very iiioiiev for 111 us coiiiiilieil w ith tl iiij; allowed the privilege ot carryinj; on le law. a lid it seems to me tliev should be reconipeiiM'd in some way fo" their returns, which would 1k' taken away from them. .(OIIX (.'.VMI'liKN ToDII 166 I I ■lit nt' a ihstituto I tliink iittiT it l('\l' tlic sci/uri' toll' liuy i (III nut re. OMI' till' I'll went SCI'IIIS til ilin iliiil ry I, 'Iff,'!' i-yiiifi nil 0\iiulii ))(> icm. 67 Victoria Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'?.'J:i2.'i. Y<»\i s|>()kc of having' lived in Sun Fraiiciscii. Wlmt system of deiilinj; w itli the liijiior tnirtie was in furco tliere? |)rink was sold in every plaee and e\. Was there a license sj-steni in force .'- Yes, liii,'h license. At Minneapolis and St. Paul the licensees pay from §1,000 to .»i!|,.")00 per license. //(/ [{.,: Dr. MrLtod: H;J"_'l'ri. How many licensed places ar(i tliere in Mraiidon / I think there are ei^lit now. think llu ."KJl'l't). IIav<' you reason to helieve that thei'e are many illicit |ii;ices ' I do i lot re are anv. 'I'l ley are looked after pretty sharply. lijf Jiuuje McDiinald . '.V.Vl'l' . Thi'ii the illicit sale of which ymi ha\e spoken occmied uiiisiiic of the citv ' - Outside of the city entirely. The ipiestioii may come up further on, hut I niiirht explain here that illicit sale that takes place 1 mean selling without a license takes place, as a rule, in liou.ses of ill-fame. By Her. Dr. McUod: ."i.'Sli'JS. Are there many houses of ill-fame in lirandon .' Three, ])eiha]is four. 33:>1>9. Do vou tind thev sell r um Tl leie IS no (|Ucs 'tion ahiiut it. .■{.'ii.'.'{0. Have vol! found that there is much illicit sale 1 )V llceiisef: (III thev hii .sale after houis and on Sundays .' \'es, a good deal. It is a very ditlicull thing, I lind, to convict them for that ofl'ence. .'<;5:2;51. What is the didiculty .' The dilViculty is simply this, that the witnes.ses or a great many of them, heloiig to a class of jieople who want to shield the hotel kccjieis as much as possihle, and for that reason it is veiy diiruull to gel correct answers from them. T o (juestions as to whether thev were in that honsi' on such and such a (la\ at a certain time, they are very ajit to re|ily that they do imt know, and that they cannot remeinher. ■■t."{L*.iL'. These witnesses have icniarkahle lapses of nicmorx .'5.'). I >o villi thid in ntlier cases wliii I il'l" Thev ha\ t>. le liefi ire Villi that the witnesses \\;\\r more or less pi airected!--No. M'sonal interest in the results of the case and their memories an- similaiilv ;i.'$L','U. Then those had niemories seem to lie peculiar to liiiuorcasi had anv trouhic ahoiit i;ett I 1 i,i\e nexcr iiig answers tnilii witnesses excejit in Mich casi —Id. .■(.'iL'.'i.'"). l)o you think the lii|iii>r tr.illic is lespons hic for that londitiiiii of iiiciiinrv XVl-.m. Are t lere iiiaiiv cases licfore voil o if sale .ifter III Thev wiiiiiii mil average more than one a nioiith. ;!.'5l'.')7. .Might there not lie more cases if thev were not so ditliciilt to pni\e '. ^'es. ,'j.'!2;iS. I )o you think that kind of sale is i|iiite general ; I do. .S;iL';{l). Is it your ohservation, then, that the licensees to any extent make cil'urts to oliserve the prohihitory provisions of the license l;i\\, tlia\ is to oIiscim' the piov isimi-, which sav that they shall not sell after critain lioiirs and on Siind;iv .' I think so, I think the cases of se ling attei liouis ;ii(' luiii'e pari iciilaiy iiard III friends and li. egular custoiners, who want diink. am |i d rather than otreiid iheiii, thev xsil! uiM' them I think that is where tl le I iiiulile arisi 1 it think that ilie lnilcl keepi'r- t!ie!av\, lillt ■■( the ^;l lilli.' llleV do not and tiie liceii.sees have any desire to In wish to otiend their cu>tomers. ."Kil'IO. In addition to the case^ of driinkei.iiess which imne liefoie ymi, are there many cases for other oU'ences tried liefoie yiur i oiiit for |ielly lliefls. disuiderly coiiiliict and so forth I A great iiiaiiy. .■?.'{2H. l)o vou tind anv pro|i(irtioii of the ]ietty thefts and disorderly coiiduel cases or of vagriincv are attrihiitahle to the di'ink trade and to the drink liahit ! Yes, \ think .so. ;{3'_'r_'. Is it a large proportion or a small one .' I should say pnliaps inie-half. .■532J.'?. Have you many juvenile cases coming liefore yim .' \'erv few cases indei-d. .'Cil'll. Tliei the liovs ai'C prellv well lielia\ed here? ^'es. 167 I' li fi. Liquor Traffic — ^IVfanitoba. 33245. Hiivc you obscfvcd whether the ih-ink tiwle or its t'stablishniPiit affects otlier Inisinesscs, iiiul if so. wiicthcr it alfi'cts tliem injuriously tir Iwiiefifijiily ? - Tt is a/ veiy (litlifuit <|uestioii t4> iiiiswur. In s(»n if cases it would lu'l|i luui in other cases it would not. 33J4t). Help in wluit way? — What I mean to .sa}- is this, that it will help certain businessmen and certain classes nt' trade. I have noticcMJ that parties who are addicted more or less to drinkiui,' ;,'o and do their tradin;; or a f^ood dt^al of it witii shoj)keepers who are (if tht^ same class as themselves. 33247. You mean drinking men .' —Yes ; 1 have noticed that in many instances. 33lMH. Taking; husincs, as a whole, (Jo you think the Imsiness of th(! ciiuinuinity is afT'eeted Iteneticiaily l)y the existence of the drink trade in the eomniunit}' f — 1 do not think so. 33249. There are eij^ht licensed ])lact>s in lirandon, which jierhaps will gather in durini; the year at a low estimate 8r"),00l) .' T presume so. 332")U. How man}' peo|)le ai'e thtM-e in lirandon ? o.OUO, I think now. 33251. Do you believe that it w(ail(l be benelicial to the community if this 875.000, instead of guinj^ into tlie bai'-rooms, were distributed in other channels of trade ? I think the money would (Id \cry much more ■^(mkI. 33252. I believt^ thercf was a plebiscite I'ccently in this province on the pi'ohibition (juestion. |)o j'ovi reinendx-r whether Brandon V(»ted strongly one way nding the enftu'cement of a general prohibitory law. Do you believe, in spite of thos<^ dilliculties, such a law would be po>siblt! of enforcement ? — No ; I do not think that any prohibitory law can be enfoirod, that i.s, so ,as to l)e al)le to keep li(pior entirely (tut. 1 do not l^elieve that it is possible to do it. 33254ff. Do you think that if pi-ohibition failed to keep li(iuor out entirely, it would lie a useless measure ; or do you think that if it kept it out in a large (h^gree, it would be a benefit / There is no (piestion in my mind but that if the li(|Uor ti-atlic was pro- hibited or li(|Uor was kept out, it would be a gi'cat benefit to a gi-eat many people. 33255. There is not a law I believe -or if tiiere is vou will stat(> it perha|>s which is absolutely (Miforced. Every law witii which you have to deal in your court is violated more or less, I supjiose ? Certainly. 3325(1. Yet y(ai believe those law.s to be go(Kl, and enforce them so far as you ai'e able to enforce them, and with ellect ? — Yes. 33257. Would the same thing be true of a prohibitory law, if it were enforced in a g(MMl degree? —I think it would. 3325S. You regard the vote of the people on the plebis(!ite, taking the whole province, as exiiressing the desire of tlu- people to have a prohibitory law t Yes. 3325i). 1 ask y(ai this (piestion lux'ause some witnesses have intimated that the ])eo|ile did not mean that at all ? — 1 will explain. I noticed at the time the (piestion was before the people that it was not placed before them or explained to them as expli- <'itly as it might have been. It seemed to be an otl'shoot of something that came in last or at the tail end. or as something not worthy of much notice. I had occasion to observe that. If the (piestion had been properh* explained to the peojile, I think the vote would ha\(' been a dilVereiit one to what it was at the last general election here. 332t)(). Would it, have been against prohibition ? -That is the ipiestion. I happened to be in one of the voting places at th(> time of the plebiscites for a couple of hours, and I noticed that the prohibition ipu^stion came up at the very last moment. The voters had east their ballots for members of the Legislature and this was taken up as a side issue. 1 noticed a great many ]>eople said. "Oh, I do not care about it ;" and started out. There did not seem to be the time and consi(l(>ration given to it that should have been given. I ol)s(>r\('d that. 332(11. Do you think that if the ps'ople had given nior(! attention to it, they would have voted the other way? The (pi(»stion was asked individuals if they did not want to John Campdkn Todd. i- 57 Victoria Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 vi)to, find the answer wiis fnM|ut>iitly ;{i%-«'n that tlu'V did n(.t want t<> have anytliin;; to do with it. Then the men would start out. Of ckiiisj', that man's voto coiiutiMl for nothin;; ; of course it was neither for nor a<;ainst. 332()1*. He did not vote! He would liave \oted aj^ainst ]>rohi)iitioii, and I noticed a j(reat many jieople would liave done so. .■{."520.'}. i)o you mean that many of the people who voted for it would have voted n;rainst it ? — Xo. .■{.■{L'(Ji. So the vote for it would not have lieen diminished, hut the vote against it would ha%e increasefl { — Yes, (juite so. J{i/ Jmli/p MvD()»ohi : 3.'52()."). You have s|Miken of the effect of other laws administei'ed in your coui't hy you htnn;; well observed I Yes. .'i.'iL'titi. Do you find in n^j^ard to the enforcement of all other laws there is a difTerence of o|)inion in the community from that which prevails in rei;ard to this matter? l>o you not find tliat this is a nuestion ditJ'eient from all other <|Uestionsf — ■ There is no douht whatever al)out tliat. Jii/ R'v. Dr. McLeod : .'l.32fi7. Do you tliink this is in any decree because tlie liipior t rathe, instead of hein^f prohibited, has lu'en promoted and authorized, and therefore people have not the same thou;j;ht and feelin327.3. Do you know how many otliei- cii-ses have lieen before the court? There )iii\e been from January 1st to the present date, 117 oases before the Police Magistrate. ■?3274. < >f the balance of the I'ases over the .')-l for lirunkenness, w;isany pi'o|)ortion to be attributed to drunkenness? Looking omt my routrh record 1 k I calculate that ■ iliout .31 other cases are so jittributable. .3327."). Have you anj' duties to dischaige in connection with the enforcement of the license law ?-- Yes, but that part of the work is niore looked after by the License Inspector. .3327<). T notices by the statute-book that you can take certain cases .'- Yes. .'••3277. Hut you say that the work is principally done by an Inspector I — Yes. 33278. What is his name ? — James H. Foster. 169 I I: .1 i ■ 1^ I ill Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 33279. Ilavt' ydu livwl in a fountry wliere a proliibitorv law lias been in force? —No. 332v*<0. Tiavellin;^ aUiut as a Britisli soldier, you have visited a nuniln'r of jdaeesall over the world (- I'nfortunately, during; ei>^ht years' service, I never left the United Kingdom, and I was oidy in Kn<;land, Scutland and Ireland. .{3281. Then you came direct from tlie old country to .Manittilta / Yes. 3.S282. Taking; your e.\]ierience of the old country, did you find that inteni|)erance was diminishing there or inereasiuf:; ? So far as 1 could judf^e, there did not seem to lie any ditl'ercnce.hut it was just about the same. Of course, I have never been at any |)lace in the Dominion »'.\cej)t Brandon, but I have found that drunkenness is less here than it wa.s in the old country. 33283. Have you an\' su!■ limit the number of places ( 1 do not know that that would proii beini; duly sworn, deposed as ws ; Hi/ Jiidijc Mrlhtnuhl : 332S(i. }|ow lonji have you resided in lirandon / ~.\lMiut ten years and a half. 3.3287. hid you come here fiom one of the other j)ro\inccs.' 1 came herefrom pi-ese 3.(288. What part of Ontario? — From Klj;in County. 3.328".). How lonj; have you been Mayor of the city ijnfli('ii(l ditKcultii's in (•iniyiii;,' it out T -It is very diHitMlt to leffislate |>('o|ilt' into tin- ri^'lit wiiy of living;. Altliouyli wi- shut tlicni up from getting; li(|uor from one source of supply, tlicy will, if tlit'v arc so (li.sposi'fnsat<'. Have you notice. Do you think the crime committed in attemptinu; toi-vadc the law would be ;.'rcater than criiiu' that is supjiosed to result from drink .' I am not in a position to be able to speak on that ipiestion. 3;5.'il 1. That would be supposition, I suppose, as we of jud^iin;; .' Yes. a\e not yi't had .in o|>portuhity ■'t.'t.'i I :.'. Jlavini; made the stattMiicnt th.it it is dillicult to legislate men int (I nu'lit 'ht t,( I ask 1' Voii this (lucstioii : it a man will dowiipiii;, do voii think it is vm II and ,i'(/ Jiidiji' Mr/)i>ii; has lieeii i,'i'owinu' that the litiiior tr.ide is a iiiattel' for lej.;islation liiK think the feelii Hi is becoiiiini' more iironoimced in that direction iH.'il'.t. Sptiiikiiif,' about tiivinu compensation to brewers anil (list illers or others who have invested irionev in the business: do vou think tliev should all be comjieiisated 1'71 1 < Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. lliivc villi considered tliat ciiinpt'iisatiiiii inif;l>t yn fiirtlicr and iiicliidf jirrsmis wlm are y i|iiirlcd l)y tlic lii|Ui)r trade / I luive nut enii-idered that iiiattef, but a i|Uestioii iiiii{ht .11 <«•• there. .■f;{."l2(). i)i> nut distilleiN and Wrewers and licensed vendurs and liutelkee|iers cairy .troyed; is it the duty of the (iovernment in such cases to make coin]iensatioii / — No, I think not. .'JJl.T'J.'!. Should tliis case be treated dillerently then J- Of »'ourse, the liijuor t ratho is also iitlected by those chanj;os. There has been a steady increa.se in the duties on certain classes of lii|uors. .'i;{.'{24. Would you leave the matter of compenaition to the people ?- -Yen. Bi/ Jadtfe McDonnJd : 'MV.Vlit. |)o you think it is a safe course to leave (|ue.stions that require f;reat con- sideration to a jiopular vote, with X\w expense atteiidiiii; it '. .Vs a rule those c|uestions are not so readily stuflitnl by a laru;e IkmIv as by a small number of persons, who can give better judgment. I{.'<.'52f). Speaking uf granting cunipen.sation to those engaged in the trallic : Did you ever h«^ar of any public movement to make such compensationV? I do not know of any. .■<.'5327. Is it not a question that will have to be deali with at the jire.sent time and a thing that runs side by side with propj-suls for jirohibition ? - Yes. Jiy liiv. Dr. Mcb'od . :?.'?.'V_'S, Tt is cont.'iuled that those who are connected with the liipior trallic should 1m coin|iensated. Have you ever thought that the ])eople who have suffered by the tiade, and whu are now suffering, should be compen.sated '. No. 3332!). I suppose the claims would be like the Alabama case, there would \n- no limit I— Yes. GORDON BKLL, M.D., of Urandon, on being duly sAorn. de|)osed as follows : — Ih) Jiidiji' McDonald : :\'MV,\(). What official jiositiun do you hold ; I am .Medical Superintendent of the Manitoba Ueformatory. 3.'{;?.31. How long liave you resided in Manitoba.' Five years. .'t.'J.'i.'iL'. |)id you come here from one of the other provinces f -From Ontario. 3333.'$. Which jiart >. — From the County of Henfrew. 33331. Jlow long have you been Superintendent of the Asylum ? Since June last. .3.3.(3."). And Suj)erintendent of the i{eforniatory I — Since the same date, 22nd June. 33.33(1. We w(>re told '. I Winnipeg that the Uefoi-matory haati('iits unil)'r tr<-atiiiciit in tlu' asyliiiii wa.s 17 aiiv diiiik '. — Yt's, only oiH'. ;{:{."U1. Is tlijit a true stati'Uifht of thf fiic'ts ? — TIumt is aiiotliiT rase uf iiisanitv, not i-aust>ositi^ cause ( I think it is so in many cases. S:(;il-'l. Can you tell the CoiinnisNion in how many ;;et information on such points «o : ot cut use it is hard to .■{.'{;>44. So you I'eally cannot furnish it ( No ; although liijuur may ha\f been the cause in a ureat many. .'{.'tlit"). (,'an you always rely en the statements you receixe .' No ; we eaniint. ,"$;{.'$|t». L)o you not lind always thut drink is gi\ en as the cause ^ No; I haxe never found that. .■{.'i:M7. Mijiht not families 1m' desirous of <;ettinji rid of the idea that there is iiisanitv in tiie family and make drink the direct cause ' -You would fancy it wmild 1k' so. but I have not found it so. .'lH.'itS, Have you had any experience in a pro hibib trv countrv I 1 lav. had exicrience w here the Scott .\ct was in force, ,1 ew w lien vou were theic nfor( ml ci'itamiv ■XVMU. Was it in force in Heiifn .■i;t;$."il>. How did it work >. We found it very dillicult to tluM'e was a <;reat improvement in the morality o you think it was dis.satisfaction cau-ed by its woikinj,' thai led to its repeal .' The reason advanced by its opponents wa.s, that it hail a pnjudicial itlcct on the trade of the town. Pembroke and the lumberiiiLC country and the luiiilici men instead of speiidiiii: their earninj,'s in IJenfrew went into ( (tiawa County, where thev coulu piircliase linuor. ;<;{;}.")|. There wjus dithcultv in eiiforcin<' the Act es, o^MII'' to IliiUo broii'Mit ill from the ]' rovilice o f (^11 just across the ri .ei ;i;i. ■$.")."). Was that liipior pun but ! have no facts in connection wi dlllterated .' I have heard of its I th it. lein lllltl licin;; ited. lt;t;{."i(). ^^'as there an impression that a ureal deal of liipio-- was used there .' \'cs, 1 have heard so. ;$;iUr)7. Have you yourself considered tne ipiestion of prohibition and its ] r.ictica- bility f- -1 think it would be a ltimhI thin;;. .'{.'JHoS. Are you favourable to ireneiai inohibilio'ii .'KJ.'}")'.*. Ill case a ''eiieral pmnibitory law w ere enacted, woulii V"u favour the ;,'rant- iiiij of eom|)ensatioii to brewers and distillers for the lo.ss of their plant .' I thii ik not tliev should take the same risk as men eni'i a^j'd .tl in otiier ini lust I les may .■i.'iitflO. Have you thouifht of the matter in this li<,'ht : that other industr ill' atl'ccted bv le;;islation indirectly, but this is excc|ptional, ihat it would be direct letjis- lation, prohibiting those men from c-arryinjj; on their business '. - I never thought of that. .'b'b'Jtil, Supjiosinj; a man eniri'ficd in any of the other ti'iules that are atlected bv tarill" legislation, and instead of the le<;islatiou Ikmiii; iiuKlitied so as to adapt itself to tir interests of the revenue, he Wius directlv le;;islated against, and a direct la iw was passec (i tliat his business should be stopped, would he not have a riijlit to say to the Dominion I'arl iaiiient, " Pay me for my plant It derstoinl that brewers and disii i'e(|uired by law t«i have certain plant in connection with their business in order to fultil the rei|uireiiients of the law, and that certain machinery shall be uswl f The trade has never U'en encouiaged by law, but it has been toloiuted. n i i> (..■; hi I i-^-f m i' Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. <( " ii ! .'{.■{.Kii'. Hut y<»u l>»^'' "•'^"■'' <'""<''l'"''''l 'I''** •I"'*'*''"" •' ^"' Jtff li'-r. Dr. Mcl.vod : '.V.\'MV.\. Kritiii your study "t" iiHMital (iisj-iiNcs, Imvc you i-oiiic to ii (Ictliiit)- o|iiiiion as to liow far hort'dity is r<^s]MMlsi))lt■ for insmiity '. It is very liirj,'('ly lUw to tliiit. of course. .'{.'HKll. Hii\c you Im'cii iil>lf to dctt-riniiii* wlictlicr tilcoholisin is liir>;»'ly ii jircdispos- '\n\^ rausf ; It is su|(|>4iscd (o lie l»y authorities ; of coui-se. it is dillicuit to detiiie. .'{;);Uir>. it would appear from sucli elassilieation as it is possiWIe to uiake in an insane asylum as to causes >el fortii in tlie classitication of cases, that a lar;.'e propor- tion are due dir'ectly to alcoholism? i think the proportion of such cases will always Im' more than the avera;;e. .■$.■$;!(■)<>. 'i'liis (Commission h is already oliiained the evidence of l>r. Steeves. Medical iSuiM'rintendent of the New llrunswick Asylum, and of |)r. Heid, Supeiintendenf of the Dartmouth Asylum near Halifax, who stated that if it were |Missil)le to trace the causes accurately, alcoholism wouiti U' i'es)ionsilile for a considerahle |)roportion of the insane cases cared for in these institutions. Would that 1k' the result of your iiivestijiations on this suhject ; My expi'iience has lieen rather limited, lint fi'om my reading; I iiave .seen as liii;h as thirty per cent of the cases assi;;ned to that <'ause. Krom my own e.\|ieri- ence the percentaj.'e woidd lie very much sfnaller, I should .)udt;e three per I'cnt. .i.'J.Wir. Could you determine that .' I could not determine tiiat, Init I think alxfut that proportion of cases were caused by alcoholisni. .S.'S.'ttiS. How lonj; have you heen a practisinj; physician .' I have been in jiractice since June last, and I was Actinij Sur;;eon three months in the Manitoba Penitentiary. .'{.'l.'Wi'.t. From your practice ami your study, do you regard total abstiiu'iice as com- patible with the best health? I do. 33H70. l>o you think iuibitual iiHKJerate drinkiiif; as harmful or useful ? —It nuiy not be harmful, but it is useless. ."l^.'J"!. < >ther thinj,'s bein;; eipial, do you ihink the total abstainer has any letter exp«'ctation of life than a hal)itual drinker? — I think so. liif Jndye McDondld : '.\'M\7'2. What do you mean by a haintual drinker! df you drink a xery small ipiantity of alcohol 1 do not think it will hurt you, but 1 think it is harmful when a man takes two or three drinks a day. Jii/ lii'v. Dr. McLeod : XVM'^. This term "drink habit" is a somewhat elastic one in mens minds, and there is scarcely any man will admit that he is an excessive drinker. When 1 speak of the drink hal)it or of the habitual tise, 1 mean the use of alcohol every day, more or less, l)Ut not to drunkenness- I refer to those who take ai\ "eye opener" in the niorninj;, and take licpior at dinner and as a " nif{ht cap." Do you think in case of sick ne.ss a total abstainer hiis any i)etter ciiaix-e of recovering than the man of whom 1 have sjK>ken ? — 1 think s County of Pi-rtli. .'l.'t.'JTH. Tliat town has never Iteen under a ]ii-oliiliitory law, I l«'lie\e '. -No. H;t:{7'.t. Have you ever lived in a euuntry untler |irohil)iti\e en.irtinent .' In IMS2, tliis |M>rtion of Manitoha was then a iiortion of the North-west Territories, and ISrandoii was under a ])rohii)itoi'y law. .'{.'(."tSO. Was the law enforced liei'e '. No, it was not. ;{;{:».S1. Could liquor he ol)tained then ,' Yes. .S.'KtSJ, After jirohihition was enacted '. Yes, in spite of it. .■{.'t.'W.'i. I >o you know what was the character of the liijuor, whether it was |iure or adulterated, or wei'e hoth kind.s to l)e found here / 1 r'cally could not say : I think if there was ^(mkI li(|uor hert% it would he very expensive. .■{.■$.'!.S|. |)urin;,' your residence in lirandon have you found it a well-conducted town with orderlv people .' -Yes, verv orderlv. .•5:?:J8-.." And also soln-r '. Yes. .■J3.'38(). As Collector of Customs, hav*- you much litpior l»rou;L;ht in from other plaoeH ? — Yes; there is coiisideiahle litpior lnought in from the old ctaintry and from Europe. Is it consijined here direct fi'ooks would show, I suppo.se? — It Wivs ditiicult to i;et at then you had the ti};ur«>s for Winnipejj;, they would include my fi<,'ures here. X.V.V^O. Would the IJlue H<| i'i>li(;e / -They were imt \wvi'. ."l.'HO.'t. S(i tlielnule went uii iiliiiiist witliiiiit clieek f N'es. I tliink the result wiis tlmt there \va> more (irinkiii;; than under the lieeiise system. .'t.'ilOI. Has tliere heeii iiri iiierejise iit' im|K>rtiit inns of li(|Uor to Kriiinlon in j;reiiter ratio thiiu th<> iiiereas<> of |Hi|iuhiti(iii .' I am not aide to say. The im|iortatioiis luiv^ iiu'reased, liut that is only ow in^r to some of the li(|Uoi' dealers iui|K)rtinu' theii' lii|ui)r, instead of l)uyinK i' here. /ii/ Jiuhji' Mi'lJitiut/tl ; :<;U(I."). I )id you say that some lii|iior dealer's liere im|>orted direct ! Tliere is l)ut one lii|Uor de.ilei' here who is a direct nnporter. /(,/ A'.r. /),: .U.L.i,./: .'{.'(loll. r>ut you are not al>le to say wiietlier tiiciv Iuin In-en an im-rea.se in the (]iiantity or not '. No. ■M i^ lit- A. M. I'KTI'IK.*'** )N, of IJiandou, Liwyer, on In-iiig duly sworn, de|M)sed a.s foliow.s : — liif .liiil'lf Mr Ihinithl : '.\'.\\{)~. Mow Ion;; iiave you resided in llrandon .' Ten years. ;{.'U().'<. hill you come here from Ontufin? -Yes, I previously lived in Helleville, in Ilastiii;;s (bounty. .'(.'M0!». Do you hold any official |iosition ? — I am Crown < Mficer for the Western •fudicial histriet. .■l.'Uld. Mow Ioul; hiive you lieen priu'tisin^ law .' Ten years. '.V.\\\ I, Mow loTit; have you U'cn C'rown OiJieer .' ISetweeii three and four ve.'irs. .'I.') I 111. is there nnu-h eiime in the district '. No. .'l.'Ul.'t. Keferrin;; to the crime that exists, ju. What projiortioM ' - I do iu>t know that I could ^'ivc the proportion, liut I .should say a consideraliie proportion, .'i.iHl'. Ma\e you made it a matter of study ? — No. ."•-■UlT. You could not make a delinit(> estinuite, 1 supjiose? No. .'i.'tllS. Takim; your experience, do you find that men chartted with crime ;ire ;ipt t.o put forward drunkenness as ;in excuse to intluence the .ludue toyivea li^'ht sentence ( I have nexcrkm wn .i single case of that kind not where I had reason to suppose that the party was |iut'in]si that forward as an excuse. .'<.'VH!>. 'hien vou have heard that statement put forward, hut you iM'lieved that it was true .' 'N'es. .'{.'Ul'M. Have yo \ou mean prosecut i(Mis against licen.sees charged witli break in;; the law ? — Yes. ">:irjL'. Were any of them |trosecution8 for selling on Suiwlay? — Yes. .'i:il2.'i. Also for sellint; li(|uiM' after hours on week days .' - Yes. :i.'{tl!4. And f< a- any other violations'! — Some were cliargefl with .sellini; without license. .'J.'UJ.'). Mave you liad an\' ca.st- of selling to niinors, i-ii iiutiiy cast's ciinHidci-ini; till' iirra lit' tin- ilisti-ict. in t'aci, I think tlicrc lia\c Im-cm scrv t'cw xiitlatiniiH takiiiu |iiacc. .'i.'Ul.'!*. llaM' villi ciiiiHiili'icd tlic i|iii'st imi ut' t In- I'liact iiicnt nt' a t^cncfal |ii'ii|iiliitiii'v law ! 'I'll siiMic extent. .'KM.'iU. Ai't* yiiii t'aMiiiralile til |ii'iiliiliitiiiii ? lam. li.'d.'il. |)i) villi think a |iriiiiiliitiny iuw tur the wlinle I'lUintiv i-niilil lie ent'ni'ccil I - Yes: I (111 nut see why it cuiilil not lie ent'orceil. .'i.'M.'t'J. You till tint think there wuulil lie ilitlii-nity in eiit'incin;; .such a law .' 'I'liere ale ilitliculties in enl'oi'einu an\ law, .'{.'U.'i^t. |)ii you tind theie is any (liU'ereni'e in the view taken liy the |iulilic ot' this law anil other laws .' ^■es, I think there is more ilillieiilty in ent'orcin^t a li(|Uorla\\ than any law I know of. .'i.'U.'U. Is that line to the tact that pulilii' sentiineiit is not in t'a\iiiirot' its eiit'orce- incnt t Not exactly .■{;U;<">. Can you not m't a ttrcater iMnly ot [lulilic sentiment in t'a\our ot' tic •'iit'orce- iiieiit of other laws ( I do not know. .'{:ll-'lti. The ditticulty is that ineii suli|iii'iiaed to irixe evidence of \iolatioii of liijuor laws seem more inclined to shield tlieinseh es, and do not wish tu a|i|iear in liijUor cases. Have \ou not found it so .' -^'es. :<.'lt.'<7. l>o villi find that their men lories iire \er\- ( lefecti .S;M;!S. Ill consideriiiL! the i|uestion of elVecti\e enforcement of |iroliiliition, liaM I I Von taken into account the state of |iul)|ic o|iiiiiiin in all the |ii'oviiices ; i iia\eiie\er li\eo vou think the wei.'U4+. Speakin;; aUiut the unwillingness of witnesses to testify and the extra- iiiilinary lap.ses of inemory ii> eases of violation of the liipior laws, have yon thou^lit whether the uiiwilliii;;ness on the part of tlio.se witnesses arises from the fact that they have lieeii in most ca.ses parties to the crime ! It is possiltle. .■$.'Utlit titlifi' otIi-iu-cs(liit«- t'l'iiiii (iiiir iiiiini'inui jul .' I iln not think tlifn* is tiny finxt^ in that iilca, for tli<< li<|Ui)r laws liiivc Ufii in force ii lon^ tinif. :(■'(( (H. Is tliiT)- II >tr taken of it. ."t.'U'il. We IiimI evidence at \Viniii|iej; that the people \oted for fun .' I ha\e never heard {MMiple s|M-ak of it in that way. 'Mi't'2. l>o voii think it is an honest expression of the jteople's opinion .' I lieaitl plenty of men who ha\e expressed iheiiiseUes fa\oural)le to prohiWition derlare they would Vote against it at the pleltiscite, and I may state that lots of men whoNoted a;;ain>t prohiWition would have voted for it if tiiey hiid lielieved that the iinx' wius ri|M> for the enactment and enforcrment of such a law, I think the people ^'a\e consideration to the matter ami voteople of Maiiitoha are fools, and I Iwlieve tliey expr<-s.sed their honest sentiments. WFLLFAM A. MACDONALK, .M.IM'., of Ihandon. IJarrisier, on In-iny duly 8Worn, dejMi.sed as follows : Jii/ Juilyi' Mc.DowtId : • .'lH4')t. Mow long have you resided in .Manitolia .' Over ten years. .'{.'U'l-'i. Have you re siil«'g- .'{;?l.*it>. 1 till you come here from one of the other provinces? — I came here from Ontario, fnun Lincoln County. .■{.■?4.")7. l>o you hold any otticial |Hi.sition here ; -I ha\e the honoui- to lie the Im-al MemlH-r. ^.'Uri.s. How long liave you held that position ? — Since the last general election, on •J.Wil .Inly last. .■S.'U')!). How do you find this community compare with otiu-rs in which you have lived : ilo you find it to Ik- an orderly and law-aliiding one? — Ye.s, very orderly. ;{.'J4tiU. l)ovou Hnd it compaivsfavciuralily with otlu r conununities in Ontario? -Yes, lievond ipiestion ; ami wt- pridi- oiiisehes on that fact. .■{;5t'il. So far as you have observed, do the jM-ople engaged in the liipior t rathe and who hold licenses apjiear to live up to the law ; 'Ihey live up to it as well as the Hcen.se<'s in other pliu-es. :i.'>4<>L'. A witness here to-da}', 1 think the Police .Magistrate, toll the Commission that he did not lielieve then- was a desire on the part of men engaged in the tratlic to lir«ak the law, hut that guests and friends come in at all houi's wanting drinks, at hours not within the terms of their licenses !— Krom my observation that statement is no doubt correct ; jieople come in at wrong hours and expect drink as part of their rights. .■?:J4'>'^ liitxf Inm'ii iiiiuif (u tliM CuiniiiisHiiiii in favour of lii^li lic iitiil liiiiitutiitii of till- iiiiiiiImm' of licfii«)-7' JHsufil. Wliiit i.H your o|iiiiiiiii on llmsf |HiiiiiM ! I consider lliiii li liiuli I Ifflisr ||»>I» Itlii: .'t.'Mtll. W't' liiivf ln'fii told tliiit llu'i'f iiri- fiKliI licenses is.siiol liei'e : is tliiit iiiini'i«>i' •ient ,' YfH. .'l.'Uti.*). |)o you i-oiiNidcr tliitt to Ih> ii reiiMoniilili' nundM-r ! Yes. M:Utir>. Do Vou know wlmt the license fee is f I would Mul like to slate witli el'litinlV. lull It llllls nil close III .•'.it M) ;t;ut II . II ll\e voil 111 hsiderni the iul\ isaliilit y of iiiMlin;; the jiersistent driinkiifd l> ^liiitlinK liiin u|i in some itsyiiini instead of scndin;; liini to jail for slioi'l terms every now iiiiW tliiMi f Tliitl is II iniitter wliidi I liave not coiisidereiiiikiii Act in the township of I'elhain. ■'(•U7<). How (lid it work! It did not work Kiilisfactorilv. We are |iart of the newly iuided territory of .Matiilolui, and thcie was no license law in force when I came here first. lt."U71. Was there a jii-eat (leal of sale of liiji iiid a ''real deal of drunkenness. There was a ^reiit deal of sale .'I.'li7l.'. Have you considered at all the ;;rantin).' of com|>ensation to lirewers and distillers in the event of the enactment of ii >.'eneral (irohiliitory law, in which case their Itiisiness Would Ih' shut ii|i Ity Act of I'arliamenI I It i.s a matter to which I have ;{iveii M'ly little attention, hut my o|iinioii is that ;;i\eii them. % /("'f. Dr. M.Leoil: •'i.'U'.'i. I think you said that the license law was oli.served here as well as it wius iliservcd in other ('ommuniti llav(! VOU ohserved how liie license law is ohservcd nc'iieridly f My cxiM'rience in .ic jilace from which I came was, tliat it was fairly well iiliserv (■( I tl lere. It is onlv l>\ remeiiilirance that I sav it mav Ik- iH-ttcr oliser\c(| in other towns in < )ntario. I think, however, that I icre as W( II there the lav fairh w ell ohservcd. < )f course, there hav • Im-cii cases of infraction of the law and in soin irosecutions ; some succeeded and some did not. IJ.'UTl. |)o yoii believe that the licensees very generally (lisrc;;iirde(l the iirovisioiiM of ill. law which |irohihited sale after certain hours, and on the Saliliath '. I Ix-lieve they did not, hut tried to liv(^ up to thw law. I may say that tliei'c is not, j,'enerally, drinkin-,' fjoini; on on Sunday. ;{.'{47."). You have stated that you hav(^ observed the working of the l>iinkin Act in Ontario/ Yes, in the township of Pelham in Wclland, which town is in Lincoln t 'ounty. .■t;?17l>. \'ou said that it did not work satisfactorily f ^'cs, that is years a;;o. .■i.'M77. Is the Act still III <.j.erati()ii / I fancy it is. 3.'M7f<. If it did not «vij:k, why was the Act retain(Hl in force ? I have stated w hat •aiiie within my knowl(>d<;e. ;i.'tl7'.*. You spoke of the early years <)f its operalion, I lieliev( .'<.'M.'^0. Have vou ''iven coiisideration to ih ucstloii ol ])l iliiliiti and to th general election whicii took place liei-e Jud^'e .Mcl>onald omitted to ask whether you are in favour of prohibition ? -I favour it, if backed up by the sentiment of the ])eople. •'$.'US1. |)o vou regai-d the sentiment of the peo])|e. as expre>*'-.(l by the recent ^ plcliiscite, as a ^ood b: / It wiiuld bean indication of the feeiin;' if the iiconie V()te(l !ic wav thev felt. I voU^d iIk- way I felt. pcop: •'t.'MS-J. You tliou;;ht the jieojile ineaiit to vote for you ? Yes. .■{34S;{. And meant to vote for |irohibition at the r(*cent election ? We had a hot 'oiitest in the city, and no doubt |iolitics (lrov(! th^ (|uestion of temperance a little out 'f the ]iublic mind, though for all that, I bcliev(! theic was a fair expression of public "pillion. Hut the people did not ;;ive the .s,inie tliou<^ht to it as th(>y would have done had I he (piestioii been brougiit up separately. )l_12il** 179 m i m Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .■$.'MH|. Ill tlic (••(litest lifre, wiis it nut a huriiiiifi; (lue.stinn ? Yes. .'i.'UHf). You have stiitwl tluit you tliiiik hivwers and distillers sliviuid receive eom peiisation : jjlease state why ? — They are carryinj; on now what is a legitimate trade, and if general prohihition came into foree they would lie deprivefl of tiieir business anrl their plant would he praetically worthless. That would he a little harti, for it would l)e dej)ri\ing them (»f their liusiiiess by law. .■i;UH('), Do you consider that tratie to be legitimate in the same sense as a general merchant's business, such as groceries and (hy goorls, is legitimate ? Except so far as sentiment goes ; these men are engagef! in a business which j)eo|(le consider is not a business to lie eMeourage made large prohts, rathei' than that the people should be called upon to compensate men in the trade who have made fortunes? — I am charitable enough to believe that some compensation should be given. .{.'M!)"). Have then> n )t been changes in tlie tariff law which have had .serious effect on business? -The tariff in Canada --especially that connected with the manufacture of William a. Macdonald. 180 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 lii|Uor — has been one tluit has bktm stut''ed from year to year, aiul it has been the expec- tation of tlie people and of tlie members of Parliament that changes wouUl take place. ;?.'U9fi. Is it afacttiiat pulilic opinion concei'ninji the drink traffic has been changing from year to year and changing in one diiection, which all men in the business have known, and in rega-t' 'o whicli tin y should lia\e prejiarerl for the change that seemerl to be coining? -I sup|,ose they have that dread on their minds, but so far their trade has remained legalized and legitimate, and the law allows them to c(tntinue. ."i.Ut)?. Then you consider that they ahouUI be granted comj)ensaiion ? — 1 did not sav in what measure. :i:i4U8. But somewhat ?--Ye.s. .'{."Ui)!). If you would compensate brewers and distillers fur loss of plant, should not the State also com])ensate licensed vendors for loss involved from rendei'ing useless their jiroperty? That is a matter of detail into which T would not care to enter. ll for .some for loss in- Rkv. x\LEXANDER URQUHAHT, of Hrand.m, on being duly sworn, deposed as f illows : — ]iy Jndye McDonald : 3.Tr)00. To what Church do you l)elong? To the Presbyterian Church of Canada. ."J.'J.'JOl. How long have you resided in Manitoba?- T have been in ^^anitoba and tiie North-west Territories al)out nine years. .S;5;j02. How Ions' have vou been in Brandon ? .\bout thret; and a half vears. .{^oOa. V Oxford County. vhich (,f the pro^inces did you come? -I cjime from f)ntai'ir), fi ■om 3:?r)04. How lonu is it SMice vou left? Sixteen "r seventeen year.' ;i.S.")0."). The county at that time was under the old-fashioned license \i\.\\ of Ontario, 1 believe? — I think it was. 3.'i")0(). In regard to the s(»cial customs of the jieoplp in liiis .section of tlie cimntrv, have you found since you came here an improvement among the people as a I'oiniimnity ; have thev in'aduallv settled dowi -I think 1 can i tv sfi, 33007. Judging from your observation, do ;ou tliink alcoholic l)everages are leas used socially than forinerh'? — I cannot speak of course from a very extensive knowledge of the Provinceof ^[anitoba, but I think the gen, ral use of li(iuor has diniiiiislied as com- pared with the eai'ly days, when excrytliing was in i\. more unsettled condition than now. 33.")0H. Do you tind that religious iiitluenccs, teiii))t>r;iiice societies, and educational intluences are all o])erating in that line? - 1 think so. 33509. And have they produced a beneficial result. -I think so. 33r)10. Have you observed the working of the license law in this ]iru\ince? — I have in a general way, from coming into contact with the people. 33.511. Hav? V l)U tOUIK 1 that the liccnsf! law noM- in force is well obscixcd, or are there many btvaches of its provisions? I am not in a iiositiun to say what breaches of the law may be committed from time to time. I ha\e \fry little means of knowing wjiether the provisions of the law a'v li\-ed u[t to in that jiarticular. because men, 1 presume, can drink all the li((uor they wish. 1 am unable to answer the (|Uestion. •■i3.")lL>. Have you in your duties as a minister of the gosjiel found e\il I'csults fol- iiwmg the use of intoxicating beverages? I h in what .').3.")13, In families 1 suppose pials of the jteople and every way. way 3.3.") 14. To anv I'reat extent? -Yes, to a In families ami indixiduaN. in the (lerable extent, usiii^ that term in a i;<'n( ll ■ral ■ay. 3.'t.")l."). Have you ever considered the (piestion of the |)ersistent drunkard? -T 33rilG. 1 now tvfer to the man who is constantly before the j)olice court, rnd who i^ sent to jail for a short time, and who IS out ayain i^^kI in ayain and so on. Would it 1h' 181 I 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 better to shut up sucli a man in an inebriate asylum or institution of that kind, or allow the present system to continue I — Shutting up bar-rooms would be the most efl'ective thinf,'. •i'Mi\7. That is to say you would do away with the bar-rooms as a whole. At the j)resent time I am dealing with the system as we have it? — I have not given thatmattci- any consideration. .■}.'i.51H. Then your remedy would be to shut up the liquor from him ? — Certainly. ;5;}.'il'J. 8o long as he can get the lii|'ior when he is out of jail, would it not be better to shut him away fi'omit? If there was no way of reforming him, that process of i-eformation would be desirable. 33520. Hut 1 understand that your remedy would be to shut uj) bar-rooms alto- gether ? — Yes. 33r)21. Then you favour pi'ohibition ? — -Yes. 'y.\')22. Do j'ou favour it as a princij)le? — Yes, and for its effects. .'53523. Do you think it a practicable measure? ?- Yes. 33524. Do you think it might be piactically enforcd? — As effectually as othci- laws. 33525. Would you favour the enactment of such a law for the province fir for tht; Dominion '/ — For the Dominion, if we could secure it ; if not, for the province. 33526. If for the j)i'ovince, do you think it could be thoroughly enforced ?- -Ye.s, so far as any law cati be carried out. 34527. Would 3'ou hope to enforce it for the Dominion ? — ^I see no reason why it could not be enforced. 33528. Take this case. Supposing a j)rohibitory law were submitted tor the whole Dominion. The Maritime Provinces voted strongly in favour of it, (Quebec strongly against it, Ontario, perhaps, slightly favouring it, this Province of Manitoba stronglj' in favour of it, British C>)lumbia strongly against it. Would you hope over the whole Dominion to enforce such a law ? — T would expect it, just as T would expect the enforce- ment of any law enacted by the Dominion authorities. 33529. The ()uestion is whether ycui could hope to enforce it effectually or not '.' Not, perhaps, at the outset, but eventually. 33530. Hav(? you considered the cjuestion of granting compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant in the event of the enactment of a general i)rohibitory law .' — 1 have given the matter some thought. 33531. What is your opinion f That they ai-e not entitled to compensation. .3.3532. Tiuii'efore, you are unfavourable to its being granted I — Yes. :).35.32'(. Has the synod of the Presbyterian Church in this province taken any spi'cial action in regard to this (|uestion .'—Yes. 1 hanfl in the Report of the feyniMl [Appendix 4.] 3353.3. I beliext! you have lived in the Nortii-west Territories'? — Between four and five years. 33534. Have you resided in Hegina 'I — Yes. 33535. How iiriic(l whotlier the incroase ut' permits was attriltutiiblc t«t the t'act tliat, owing to tlie poor (|iiality <>t' li(|iior being smuggled into tlie Ten-itories, it wiis thought iulvisalile to extend tiie system of permits, in order to allow a better class of liquor to be brought in ? — Xo, T hav(^ never understood that th<' aetion was taken on those grounds. ] think the action was taken on the part of those who wanted to carry on the trathe and those who desired to have tin; tratlic. They urge(l that those change.s should be brougiit alnnit. 33544. Did those jjermits enable peo|)le to enter into the ti'aflic or get liquor simply for private use? — The liijuor was to bt^ simply for jn'ivate use. Lattei-ly, howi-ver, per- mits were granted which practically amounted to a license. Tliat was during the last year of my residence in the Tei'ritories, when beer containing 4 parts of alcohol was admitted. I am n!) .!;alloiis, there were no less than 1 1, MiO gallons of spirits included in those permits, which would nearh' (i.iuble tht^ quantity ? -It follows that if an appt^tite is whetted it will desire a greater quantity. 3355t). Jly iiiq)ressi()n is that in 1889, the Governor issued permits to bring in 100 galhuis foi' sale? — 1 do not know. 33557. Have you had an opportunity of comparing the condition of a conmiunity iMider license witli the condition of a connnunity mider enforced prohibition ?— Not lieyond the experitMice of the North-west Territories in a modified form. 33558. And your experience was that prohil)ition was beneficial ? T decidedly say so. 33559. From your experience in your pastoral duties, do you lielieve that to any 'orisidorable extent the drink trade and the drink habit are the causes of crime, 183 Ml Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba. iininonility, jMivcrty, domestic troubles, nefflet't (if children uiui neglect nf religion? — I do believe it so affects certain individuals. .'{.■jnCO. For these troubles do you think the drink trnftic and habit are to a large extent resjjonsible? Yes, in my judgment. RICHMOND SPKNCKR, M.I)., of Brandon, on being duly sworn, dejx.sed as follows ;— By Judge MvDomild: 33561. ITow long have j'ou resided in Manitoba? — I have resided hei-e nearly eleven years. 335(52. Have you resided in Brandon during all that time 1 — Yes. 33r)C3. Did you come here from one of the other provinces?—! came here from Montreal. 335G4. Have you had any experience in regard to the carrying out of a j)rohibitory law in any section of the country ? — No ; except in places where I have happened to go. I have been in the New England States and have noticed its effects there. 33505. Was there a prohibitory law in o])eration when you canu' hei-e? — It was the permit system that was in vogue. 33560. AVas the liquor trartic piohibited here ?— -Yes : the railroad was opened at that time, and you could not get licjuor except by permit. 33507. I suppose a man consumed more liquor at that time than now ? — 1 flo not know. 335()S. Do you know anything about the (piality of the ii(|Uor l)rought in at that time, whether it was pure or not? — The whisky was pretty gctrwl ; the brandy and wine were nothing but poor whisky coloured. 33569. Have you observed the opeiation of the license law in this section since it was in force, and, in your opinion, is it fairly well observed ? -[ think so. 33570. Then 3'ou have not had reason to believe, as a citizen, it is continually broken .'—No; I think th(! law is pretty well observed. 33571. Would you favour having liquors that are offered for sale frequently inspected, in order to ascertain that they are pure, and thus afford protection to the con- sumer ? — Y'^es. 33572. Have you considered the treatment of the persistent drunkard, the man who is brought ))efore the police court and sent to jail, and reappears regularly? Are you of the o]iinion that it is lietttM" to continue that .system or to adopt some other .sys- tem looking to the reformation of the nian and his removal for a time fr yive the coinnioii iicnplea clieaii (liink, such as hifjei' beer, oi' any ntiier jfood drink, and 1 would give the better classes goofi wine it' tliey were willing to j)ay for it. You would do more for the cause of tem|ieiance byatlopting such a measure than in any other way. If there were men who wanted brandy or some litiuor stronger than those conunonly used, the jn'oper way wouUI be to place a large license fee on its sale : let them pay oO cents j)er glass for it, but at the same time let it be go(Kl. Tf the price were 10 or oO cents a glass there would be less drinking, they would not paj- S'2 or 8-) for a few glasses of brandy. 33-')76. In other words, you would fo'-ce the adoption of such a system us would encourage the use of light wines, ale and Iiger, in preference to the heavier liipiors? — Ye.s. .'^3577. You have said that you are favourable to pi'ohibition as a matter of prin- ciple. Do you consider it p''acticable ','- - 1 do not. ■■i3578. Do you think it could lie enforced '! — I do not, 1 am sure of it. Men will have drink if they wish it. •■•3")79. In ca.se of the enactment of such a prohibitory law, would you favour the granting of compensation to brewci's and distillers for the plant that would be rendered useless? — If men invest large sums of money in an industry of that kind which is legiti- mate, and for carrying on which they are paying a license to the Government, and espe- cially since tht>y have carried on the business tor a couj)le of years, and they are shut out from carrying on the business, it being made illegal by the enactment of a general prohibit3o80. Why did men drink more under the permit system than they do no\\ under licen.se?-- I think the reason is they could not get more than one or two gallons ;it a time. If they got it they felt that it cost them nothing, and they gathei' ■(! their friends together and they drank it. 33-')8l. They did not cease, I suppose, until it was all gone? -No. 33.")8"_'. That is the way the Indians do when they get theii- rations cat to reple- tion and then go hungry for a month? Yes. ;?3583. Is there something in the western atmosphere which makes the \\ hite man do as the Indian does? — They say there is a great deal of ozone in the air. 33.")84. Do you think there is less drinking under the licensf> .system than under the permit system? -1 could not tell you that. .'^.'{.'")8."). Having regard to the difference in population, is there a better condition of att'airs now under license? — Yes. I I'emember leading some extracts from the oHicial report of Col. Herchmer, who .says that the condition of things under license is greatly worse than under the permit system, and that the change has bei'n for the worse since the licens(> system went into o]ieration. I think that if the license system was properly looked aftei' it would not be so bad. 3.' permit system, and I want to know whether you think he is correct in that opinion oi' not? My imj)ression is that he made a statement about this very town. So far as Brandon is concerned, it has always been very temperate; there has been very little drunkenness here, and I have often remarked it. It is a very unusual thing to see :i drunken man on the streets', except [irobablv this year when there are a great 185 M' I ; :; I 1 ' iIk ' P'^ mi^ '',<(' '11 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iimny jmlilie works jiuing on lien- jind ii large iiuinlicr of lufii luivf ooiiie tVoiu tlie other pi'oviiiee.s and elsewliere. Tliose are tlie (li'inking men rather than our own people. ;{.'tr),M!». You have said that you do not favour prohiijition. Do yc think it is wrong in principle? — I do. ;{3r)90. I tliink you have said that you would prohibit certain men from getting drink, and you would put a prohibittiry price on certain drinks? — Yes ; that wit the other kinds, Ijut I would let them have lager and wine at nominal figures. I would not put any heavy duties on them. 33594. On whi.sky, gin and the like, and brandy, you would put heavy duties? — Yes. 33.595. Is tliat not really prohibiting a thing that is bad? — It is Ijad only in the way you take it. It is not the thing itself tliat is bad, but the abuse of it. .33590. Why not prohibit the man? The article, you say, is not biul ; but the trouble is owing to man's appetite : why not then prohil)it him? — 1 think it is jiropcr if a man has an improper appetite for drink, that there should be something done with him. 33597. Hut nothing should be done with the system that creates and assists in creating the appetite? — Yes. 33595. What should be done with 't ? — If the CJovei'iiment wish to send men to sucli an institution nti Keeley's Institution they might try it, ])erhaps. 33599. Do you think it is a good thing to keej) established a system that produces men who have to go Keeley's Institution ? — I do not believe in prohibition, a!id I do Ijelieve in men getting drinks if they like. I do not belit!ve in prohibiting a nuin and then having him sneak in by back doors. We would next have our children sneaking in by back doors and practically stealing it. 33(100. That is your view of the subject? — Yes. .33601. You would undertake to compel a man, if he wanted lifjuor, to get it under ditticulties, if facilities were provided to get it in an open fashion ? — T would do some- thing to prevent the man who thinks he nmst liave it from getting it ; but the man who desires it for social purposes, I would not i)rohibit. 33G0i!. Then the nuui to whom you refer has to have it because of his appetite, I suppose ? — Yes. It is generally inherited. Many a man takes liquor all his life, and it does not harm him. 33G03. You know that the drunkard is an expensive man compared witli the ordinary drinker? — There are no drunkards to compare with ordinary drinkers. 33004. Then you think only a few are harmetl by (h'ink ? I think so. 33005. I tliink you said you woukl Hog excessive drinkers? — Yes : I would do something to punish such men. I do not believe in putting them in jail. .33006. .Supposing the num inherited the ai)petite, would you flog him ? I would send him to some institution where he could be cared for, at the public expense if necessat'}'. .3.3007. Would it not be better to provide facilities for indulging such a man's a[i|)etite ? Fi ably he would get out of the worlil all the sooner. 3.300H. ' you tliink it would be a good course to adopt ? You have suggested your answei. :! perhaps that is the one you wanted. 33009. ii y\ punished severely the drunkard, what would you do with the manu- facturer ot the drink: would you flog him too? No; that would be equivalent to punishing the (Jovernment. 33010. Who is back of the (Jiovernnient? The people. 33011. Would you flog the people or the man who makes the liquor, tlie man who has a (Jovernment license to do .so. Is the country right in licensing him ? -I believe so. Richmond Hpenceh. 186 Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. 33612. So no man in wrong except tlie man who chinks to pxccss .' Tluit is wiiat I b«'lit've. 33013. He is the only man who should be (logged ? Yes, and lie should be Ircated and cared for in some way. 33t)14. In inebi'iate asylums perhaps ? Yes. 3361."). If there were inebriate asylums established, how would you support them-- at the public expense t I supjMJse so. 33t)lG. They would be State institutions? -Yes. 33617. Is it a gtxxl business for the country to enter upon the businessof establish- ing a traffic which produces persons who have subset|uently to be provided for at the State's expense? I could not answer that (|uestion. 33<)lf<. l)o you think it would be right to have free sali- of liipior, or do you think the licenses should be linnted? I would limit the trade. 3361!). In lirandon, why t suHicieiitly posted on the tinancial side of the (juestion to be able to answer that. It is a (pn-stion of money I think. 33028. Is it not a (piestion of right.' Assume that we wei'c all living in Itrandon: two of us get licenses, and the rest of us, the town declared, should not have licenses. Would that be right ? Should we not have the right to engage in the business, if we chose to do so, and take our own risk of making profit or loss .' -Yes, if you could get the license. 3.3629. liut the cit}' says you shall not have license. Now, what right has the city In say that? — I could not pretend to answer that (juestion. 33630. You are a practicing physician ? Yes. 3.36.31. D(t you believe total abstinence is injui'ious oi' benelicial to man ? — I Indieve rlie man who does not drink at all is the best man. £1/ Judge MeDoruild : .33032. Taking the (juestion asked by IJev. Dr. .Meljeod ;is to the licensing of the Uatlic, which makes men Ix'come di'unkards : is it the drink or their own act that makes tliem become drunkards? — It is their own act. 33633. I underst md your view of [)rohibition to be this : that e\en if there were iiip legalized traffic, jjcople would still get liquor to drink 1 Yes, they would get it. 3363-t. And if j)ersons choose to become drunkards, they will become so whether there is a drink traffic or not?--I think persons have got li(|Uor ever siiice Lot got drunk. Uy Rev. Dr. McLeod • 3.3635. Do you think it well to follow his (!xami>le? No person detests di-unken- ni'ss )nore than I do. J8T ^w^ !:■ ^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. Rkv. S. I)ANI KL8, of liraiulun, on l)ciiii; duly sworn, dt'iioscd as follows : — //// ,lii(l(i<' Mrlhniiihl : WWdtWa. To wliJit dcMoiniiiatioii do you Im'Ioii;^; .' I aui a Minister of tln' MetJuMlist Cliui'ch of C!aiia(la. .'i.'JG.'J". W't' lia\<' tilt' (lclivt>raiu'(' of your Cliurcli already ;,'iveii us in Montreal, as adopted bj' the (Jenerai (lonference in 18!)U. As a minister of that ehureli, do you oon- <'ur in till- deliverance of the (ieneral Clonferenee ? 1 do. ;{.'{G;5H. Are you favouralile to the total prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — I am. SlUl.'J'.t. ^'ou considci' it advisable that we sliould have [ii'ohibition ? I do. .'{.'{GIO. Would you have it of a jirovineial <»r national c-liaraeter, for the province in which you reside or foi' tlio Dominion at lar<;e? -1 should like to see a Dominion Act ; if that was not practicable, I should lik«s to see a Provincial Act. .'l.Sdll. Dave you considered the practic-ability of tlie enforcement of such a law? — I have f{iven it sonu' thou;;iit. .'53()42. \\'itli wiiat I'esuU ! -1 do not see wliy we could not enforce such an enactment. ;}.'?()43. Do y(ai believe anything would depend (ii local circumstances and the pub- lic sentiment of the locality 1 -Yes, to .some e.xttuit. .■?.'i(>4 1. .Tud<;inj; from what y(ai know of the province, what do you believe the sen- timent would l)e ? — J ix'lieve the propctnderanceof public sentiment to be most decidedly in favour of such a law. ;^'5()4r). Have you considered the t|uestion of granting compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant, in case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law ? — I have gi\-en it some thought. U."U)IG. With what result .'- I cannot at all agree with the principle of conipensati')n as being just, or do I think it .should be gi\en. .'5."{()47. Dave you ever lived in a prohibitory country or State?- I lived three years in Ilegina under the permit system. ;?:1G4S. During what years ? During 1885, 1887, and 188S». .'i3G4i). Was that befon; the changes were made that the foi'inei- witness, liev. Mr. rniuhart, s|)oke of in regard to the extension of the jiennit sj-stem, or was it after that extension was made ? — It was before the extension to the five per cent beer, and also a few months subsequently. .33G.")0. How did ]>rohibition wnrk in the North-west Territories ?— I found it work very well. .■'>3Gi51. Was there any .sale for beverage i)urposes? — There may have Ijeen .some, but it did not come undt;r my personal knowledge. 3;5Gr)2. You never saw the efl'ects of it? -No. 33653. You Relieve, then, that the sale was small ? — Yes, so far as my ol)servation ■vvas concerned. ■33G54. Do you think that there was any trouble in regard to smuggling licjuors into the North-west Territories from outside? — T think occasionally there were cases, one or two, during three years. 3.'iG55. Do you mean of seizures made ? — Yes, I think I rememlrer two cases. .'i3G5G. 1 understood that the Mounted Police were there to prevent liquor entering the Territories 1 — Yes. 33657. That it was their duty to (Muleavour to enforce the prohibitoi'v law? — Yes, 33658. Wiis the force, as a whole, very vigilant ? — I think so. 33G5'.). Have you had any experience of the Territories since the change in the law ? — Not since the license law came into force. 33GG0. Have you observed tlu; working of the license law in Brandon? — 1 have not been long in Jirandon, only since July. Betoie that 1 wius at Portage la Prairie. 33661. Was the license law in force at Portage la Prairie? — Yes. 33662. How was it observed ?- -It wfus not very well observed during my time. 33G()3. What was the dirHeulty ? — There were breaches of the law. 33GG4. Was there sale during prohibited hours ? — Yes ; they had a number of con- victions for breaches of the Act during my time. .33(165. Was thei'e much illicit sale of li(iuoi' there? — I am not prepared to say. Hkv. S. Danielh. 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 •I'vatioii liui's into (Hit' "I' Mitcnng -Yes. hu' law ? Iiavp not it' Cllll- .ay. \j. V. llUdHI LL, ot' Braiiiloii, •lniiiiiulist.oM Iw-ing duly sworii. (lr|>iisc(| ^s t'ullDws : — Hi/ Jiulije Mi'Doniihl : 'XM\W\. What is your (H-cupatiuii .' I am . and witli tlie e.xer|)tion ot' oikv hv twice Kiiinu home to Kii^land, I have been ahnost cunstantiv ii M iintt la and the Teffitifries since that vear. ."{.'UJCll. In what |iai'ts ot' Manitoi>a ! W'lien I first came to .Manitoba I lived at Cul<;ai'y. Then 1 was on the C-innmission a|i|)i)inte(i to estahiish the lionndarv between 'he I'nited States and l$fiiish Possessions. Then I was out in the Noftl .t .1 in-nii' the time of tlu' Nofth-west I'olit I was there jirior to the arriva I ot' t \v rej^ular force, d after they came out I remained until IMSi*. Then I went to lvii_'lanil, came out nil, reniaineil in \N iiinijiei; some time, and sinci then I have lieeii in Manitoba all th time, althoui^h i was occasionally out of it for short |ieiiods. .'5."{ti70. In what |iart>i of the North-west Territories have you lived.' In (."alyarv and Fort MacleotI |iiincipally. .'i^JtlTI. When you were li\ iiit; in the North-west was there a |irohil)itoi v enactmi-nt in force? — It was in force. .'iSt')?!.'. How was the law enforced \ It was not enforced at ,ili, not to any i;ical e.\t»'nt, at all (neiits. ,■{,'{(■> 7 •"'>. Were into.vicatini;- b"verat;es obtaiiiiible .' Yes. in lari;e i|uaiit ities. :i;5t)74. Of what iiuality / -Of a very inftirior (|uality. .■$.'5t)7o. Was there much li(|uor consumed : was it consumed to excess.' (aiiisump- tioii to excess occurred in this way : Whenever what was called a carno arrived, it was the occasion for a diunk. Then the ])eriiiits were drawn out so t li;it they covered any liquor for a sutKeient ionj;tli of time until some one else had siiiiij,'ixled in a caiLto. uor was used to excess when .■<.'}()7*>. So while there were intervals of abstinence, liiji cari^oes arrived .' — When it did come it was used to excess, decidedlv. i.S()77. Was it all brought in bv sniuii'ders from across the boimdarv lint Nearlv ill of it. That befo 'ore railway construction It k was loiiy; [ireceilinif the railway th It was almost previous to the permit system : I am speakini; ni>vv of 1S77. i{.'Jl)7y. What was the condititin t)f things after the permit .system came m was very much the same. If a man had a permit for tive gallons of whisky all his friends caUed on him, and there was what was caUed in that country a general jamboree until the litpior was h'nished. The permit .system was no better than the old system, with the exception of this, that the (iitxcrnment derivfti a revenue from it. .■5."$Gf<0. l>o you know whether the liiiuor that was to be had under tiie |>eruiit -ystem was inferior in (pialitv to that brought in by smugglers .'^ It was of a better i|ualitv than what was smuggled, but it was not of really good i|uality until later years. < Iriuinallv it was l)rou<' lit from Fort Mentoii. AFonta na. 3."i."U)8 b(. Was the li(|uttr of l)ettei' tpiality \ Decidedly after the railway was liuilt. .S.'{r)8."). Did you notice whether there was more drunkenness aftei (Is than then .1 i lail lieen before .' — No, I do not think there was any more. .■{:<6sr). Did yt)U see anything of the working of the tive pei- cent system. I refer to beer containing tivt^ per cent of alcohol \ — -Yes : that was w hat the law allowed us to liave. r flo not think if the beer liad been tested it wttuld have been found to contain Mioic than five per cent of alcohol, although something of a medicinal nature was jiut into it. 189 ■^^) 1 ! '■ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'{.■i(iS7. Fntiii wliiit yiiu Imvo seen iil' tin; witrkiii;; ot" a lii-ciiHc liiw in Miiiiitoliii, iiiul t'ritioii was carrifd on in tin- 'rcrritori<>s a licrnsf law is [U'cfi'iahh', iM'causc the i>roliiliitory law was not cnforcfd in the .slij{ht('st (lf;,'i'fi'. Of roui-sc an occasional st-izurt' was made, hut for one sei/ur»> made there wei'e ten men sclliii;,' ille;;ally. li.'K'iScS. Knim what you lia\'e seen of prohibition ami fi'oni what you have Htudied, do you think it is praetieahle to enforcea ^(eneral prohil>ittle.s8 aware thiit this Commission ischarjjed with the duty of <'onsi(h'rin;; the i|Uestion from the standpoint of the whole of the country, and that this insfstitjation has resjiect to the Mominion from oceati to ocean. Taking' the Maritime Provinces, with their lar;;(; sea coast, and Quehec, witii the (St. liawi'ence running; up into it, and the country west with its proximity to the United States, and British Cohimhia, facint? on the Pacitic Ocean, and all the surroundings, how do you think it would he possible to enforce |irohihition in Canachif -I woidd favour it, if it were jjracticahle. .'13htaiii a better class of licensees. 3.'i()98. Supposing one or thi> other had to be done away with, the hotel bar or the .saloon bar, which in the interest of the conununit}' should he removed? — I should say the saloon bar. 33>")99. Have you ever considered the c|uestion of the treatment of the persistent to thi' lit C()l>- itioii of e litiuor HI 1(1 l»' flass of or the mid say rsistt'iit ajiiiiii iiig liiiii tn^'lh of (be kept \r beinj,' loiii oue two or |)£ being Liquor Trafflc — Manitoba. sxiit to jail foi'tliat ofrciu'f. If it wt-re ]iossililt', iristrail of iia\in;; (liat man I'oiniiiitted to jail, |iuiiisii liiiii by piittiiii; liiin in an inebriate asylum or institution of that kind, in uliicli lie eould .s|M-nd a eertain ien;;tli of tiini\ [t nii^'lit lead to his reformation. ."(.nyiH). Have you eoiisidered tin- i|tit'Hlinii cif intriHlucin;; liylit wines in jilari' of Iifa\ier li<|Uors fur u'eneral use! It a|>)>e,'iis in mr tlial in old counti'ies like Kni;land and continental countries like I'ranec, tliei'c is very mucli less driinkciniess tlian in countries where the hea\ ier li(|Uor.s are used. In Kranee li>;ht wiiu's are used altogether. 'J'he taste for li)j;ht wines is an educated tasie, and of course it takes .snme lime to jjet lieopie to drink them. Whether you could !.'et men who drink whisky to drink them, I do not know. It miuht lie ditlicult, if not im[H)ssible. /i> h''r. I>r. MrL-uil: .■<;<7Ul. I think you said that you are connected with a newspaper .' Yes. .'i.'t'O'J. Have you been lorn,' in I'l'andon in connection with a newspa]ier .' As I said before, 1 have not been lonj,' in llrandon (his time, but 1 have been here befuri- this. I ha\e only been hi-re this time two oi- tiu'ee months. ."•.■{7li."(. Then you are not a permanent citizen? No; I ha\enot been here as a permanent citizen for any len;;th of time H.'ITOI. Were you in another part of .Nfanitoba before yuu came here '. Yes. .■{.'?7l)"i. innnediately before comin;; here '. No ; I was in Winnipej; for tinee years. iKb'Ot). Were you connected with the press there ; No; I was with the Canadian Pacitic Railway. .'{•'$707. You have said that in the Territories [)rohibition was not enforced at all .' Was that because of the peculiar way in which the permit system was administered? — When I said prohibition was not enforcetl at all, ! meant to I'cfer to the time previous to the permit system, when 1 was tirst at Foit MacleiKl. There was no permit system. Whisky was sraugj^lt^d in from Fort Benton. Then Colonel McLcikI, Commissioner of the North-west Mounted Police, receiveil an ordei- from the (ioverinnent that he could issue permits to a limited extent, and afterwards (iovernor Ijaird issued peiniits when he came into the country, .■i.'i70S. Y^tu were in the country, then, during (!o\ernia' bainl's administration / —Yes. .■b'570'.l. Where were the headtpiartei's of the ({overnment at that time ! -At Prince Albert. .■5.'57IO. Mow long at;o was that? I think it was in 1^77 and l.*<7S. I saw Lieutenant-( iovernor Laird at thi' time of the ti'eaty making with the IMackfeet Indians in 1S77. |{."?711. That was jjrevious to the permit system, 1 suppose I Y^'s, you could not e\en get a permit; but [trevious to the aT'i-ival of tJovernor F^iird, Colonel McLeod was acting Lieutenant-(}o\ernor of the Territories. .■{.■i7lL'. How long prior to the time that permits were issued was prohibition Mipposeil to l>e in force in the Territories? — From the ari-ival of the Mounted Police. When they arrived at Foi-t Macleod a prohibitory law was established. .'?-i7l-'). Ill what year was that? -1 think it was in the fail of |.*<71, when the North-west Mounted Police arrived at iMU't Macleod : and from that timi' up to about llie fall of l!^7t), or 1S77, the jiermit system was in existence, and you could get permits from (iovernor Laird. .■)."?711. When permits were issued, I suppose liijuor came in under pern\its ,' — Yes, and litpuir was sold not only for medicinal purposes, as was supposcfl to be the case. ;?."?7ir). In Colonel Herclimer's report, there is a statement that if prohibition were to be etifoiced, the ]ieiinit system would eithei- have to be abolished oi' ditlerently uliuinistt^red, and there needed to be removed certain technicalities that m.ide the eiitiircement of the law ditlicult. Had you ri-ason to believe that any good at all was ttl'ected by the j);-ohibitory law? — Not in the North-west Territories. .■>;17H). Was that because of non-enforcement? — Y''es. •■i;5717. Do you l)elie\e that if the law had been enforced rigorously, it would have iiicomplished good in certain sections? — Decidedly so. 191 Liquor Tiafflc — Miinitoba. H .'{."I"!'*, h'l >"U think (•nt'iirct'iiiciil was ixactiralilc ' 'I'Ihti' wa> im nu'iiot •■tl'oit iiiiulr. It n.ulfl Imnlly U- ciiforrwl in sucli a ('outitrv. .M<'ii could i-hwh tlif liri** at Flirt ll<-iiti>ii, atxl it WKulW !»■ iicfi'SHarv to lssi'~.s. .'(;(7l'.l. S|H-akiii;; alMiiit tlii'law l>i'iii;i,' lla;;i-aiill\ \ inlatril aiiii tin- liail i-ll'i'i'ls ' whirh \Vi,ili|i- to i'iit"iiiT»' it, I winijil (Ti'taiiily I'lit'ofi'i- it. •'l"{7-0. Ill) you think it |iossilili' to i-nfot'Cf :> |ii'iiliihitiii-v law uikIit an\' I'ii'iuin- staiK'i-s ' I mull! hii'illy answer that ijui'stion. .■{.■J7'_'l. I »ii yiiu say it is iiii|.iissil)|c nr' ilitUriilt ! I think it is m-iv ilillirult imli'i'il. •'l-'tT'-'l.'. I>'i you iM'lii'M- that it' surh a law wi-if iMit'oiiTil, tin- rt'sults wuulil in- ^lMnl '. I>cfii|fi||y. H'M'l'A. |)oyil you an iiiriilfnt whirh will illnstiati' my iili-a of till- whole thin:,', as well as I can illustfate it. 'I'he ease was at • >ak Like nut lont' au'ii. 'I'hefe is a man thei'e who hulils a very ;;oikI position in a larite I'ompany in this eiiunttv. I askeil him how he t'elt ahout the eleetion. Me tolil me he \oteil t'ur prohihition. I was rathei' astonisheil at that statement, itnil 1 saiil ; " Why iliil you vote tor proliiliition, " especially when F kiunv hi' was a man who iloes not ;;o in t'or prohiliitiiin. ami who reailily takes his liipmr. lie saiil : '' i am in reeeipt of a ^hhI salary. Si. "lU |ier month, hut I ean make a i,'reat ileal more in a piohihition eountry hy s«'lliii>; liipior : that is why F \oleil for it. " .■{.■J7'Jt). Is hi' a .sample of a lartje miinlier of tlie people .' 1 do not know, liut that is w hat he .said. •■[•■{7l!7. HaM' yfiu noticeil whether the lieenseil men in the husiness in Maiiitoha are all of them, or larjiely fa\ouralile to the proliiliition inoxement .' I hanlly faney they woulil Ih'. hut I eannot speak for them as a lioily, for I ilo not know many of them. ;5.'t7'_'.''. I >o you think the man to whom you have referrcil represent.s tin- sentiment of a lar;.'e iiumiMM' of tile people who voted for prohihitioii at the recent election .' -I think there were a larife number of the people in a similar position. .'J.'t7'_".i. Do you think that he is a fair representative of l'l',('"U peojile ! — I would not say that. .■5.'{73ti. Vol! do not think that '22,000 men, if proliiliition were |iassed, would 1:0 into the illicit business and sell ' -I do not think that numljei' would ;;o into the busi- ness, but some of them mii;ht fio so. .■5.'57.'U. A witness in Winnipeg stated that a great many people \<.it>fl foi' prohibi- tion for fun .' I do not see what fun there would be in voting for it. .■{.■>7;ll.'. Then it would lie ditlicult to account for it, from your jmint of Mew ; — Yes, Itecause F know men who \oted for it, and who eveiy day of their !m s drink sm.ie alcoholic liijuoi'. .■i:!7-'i-'!. Do you think that if a man votes for prohibition, and yet is in the habit of ilrinkin<_'. he iIiki-s not mean to vote that way? — I do not think I would say that. Although F am not a temiieiance man, at the same time F would Mite for proliiliition if it coulfl Ix' strictly enforced. H:{7"U. Then you believe that if it could be enforced, it would do giMKH — F do. '■\'M'.ir). Do you think it is worth trying as an ex]iorimeiit '.- You will have to make a better experiment of it than was made in the North-west Territories. ;>."{7''{li. F)o you think that was a fair experiment ! — Ft was not a fair ex])eriiuem. /ii/ Judge McDonald : :\:\~.\~. I understand that you are favourable to prohibition as a luinciple, liut that you votetl against it because you considered it impracticable. May there not have Ijeen L. F. HViiHlLL. 192 SVHUUI jiri'hi^ii- h— Yes, Ik sui.ie Iv thiit. l)itioii if |(lu. IllKMlt. hut that Ive been 67 Victoria. tScshional Fajwrs (No. 21.) A. 18U4 iimiiv |«'ip|i|f « hii Mitol fill- It m tlic tiiiif, LM'lit'\ inj; that ii wiiuld (In iiwiiv wiili iliuiikcii- tU'H« I Y»'S. .'M7't'<. hut lint liii\ iriii IiikI your cxjwi'it'iict' iiH to the practii'iiWility of aiiv jn'olii- liitoi-y liiw, tlifv wfir imi miidi'il ii.«, yuii wfi'c in yi\ iii^' tlicir vnics .' -TliiU was vhi'v liciH'i a llv til III/ /{',: Ih. Mss til)- only rxil I't'siiltiii^ from tlir IJi|Uor tradr \ I tliink that In tlif (lirci't i'mI, Imi tin-. • art' a lai;/i' iiuiiiImt of evils ai'isini; fimn ii iri. A-^ a iii'W spapff iiiati. Iia\c yon hail a lai^i' i'.\|it'iii'iii'i' .' i lia\i' iml. .■|."17ll. I toi-s ihf lji|iior iijuli- alli'ct tiailf iiiclusiiifs. ihimioiisjy m iM-nclirialiy f — l,i(|iior iiM'd to I'xct'ss must do iiijuiv. Mil" ll'. I iiscd as follows ;• — />'// Jiiilijr Mr Ihiiinhl : '.V.'t'i \'.\. Mow loni; haxi'you liscd in Manitolia .' Ahout It-n vears, .sinre I (rcrniln'i', ISSl. '■V-\~ \ I. Fioni « hat |iaii of Canada did you iMinu- .' l'"i'oui Lindsay, in tin' I'ount v of Nictoiia. .').'{7l"i. Havcyou notict'd, sinui' you hase lived in Ih'andon, any change in the sociiil customs of the I |>le in regard to the use of inloxieat ing l)e\er'ai;es ? I do not see \eiv nuich change. .■i:i74ti. When you came here what system in regaid to dealing with the lii|Uor iillestion was in foi'ce .' I believe there were no licenses in foice \v hen I came liel'elirst. .■t.'i7 17. WiLs li(|'ior sold '. ~\ Indieve it was. I do not know .mything in regaiil to tills matter from actual experience. .'i;i71'^. I lave you observed anything of the license law. whether it is rcasonabl\- well obserNt'(l oi' not ? — It is reasonably enforced in the city here, as well as you might expect to see it, I do not think it is very thoroughly enforced. I am not nciv much ill !i position to say anything about l\w sale, ai* I do not go much round lintels, and therefore catinot speak of illicit .sale tluring prohibited hours. .'I.S749. |)o vou know whetiier any illicit sale takes place? — i belie\e there is some. :!:{7r)0. In the city? Ye.s, at the taverns. .■{.■i7-"')l. Have you considered the treatment of the persistent drunkard '. Nottoanv extent. I have not given that matter much thought, and I am not able to express aiiv iiiilgmeiit on it. '.S'.\~~yl. Ha\i' vou considered the (|uestion of encouraging the use of light wines and lieers in |>reference to the heavier liipiors, especially spirits I \ have thought of that matter to some extent. My opinion would be that it would only encourage the use of strung liipiors ; I think it would lead to that, .'<.'57-")S, Then you do not think any advantage is to be gained by that cluiiige / — Nil, nothing is to be jiained by that at all. 'X.\'t^)\. Have you had any experience of prohil)ition '. Xo. !$.'i75."). Have you considered and studied the subject of prohibition ? I have studied il. to some extent. .'J;57")W. Then you are hardly in a position to express an opinion as to its workings? — 1 do no«- see wliy such a law could not be enforced as well as any ot!;er law. ;?."57")7. Have you considered the ([uestion of granting compen.sation to brewers and ilisiillers for the loss of their plant and nuichinery in the event of the enaetiiient of a 193 •21 13** , Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. geiici'iil ])i\)liil)it(iiy law ? — That is a very debatable subjeetr aiui I have not fiirnu'd a stniiif; (i|)inii>ii on it. Lookii.;^ at it from my present standpoint, T do not feel inelined to eomjiensate tliem to any lai'j^e extent. n>/ /iVc. Dr. McImuI: .'i."?7r)H. I undei'stand that you are Mana<;ei' of a Loan Association? — Yes. .■J.'J75y. Krom yoiif experience as Mana^'er of a [ioan Company, are you able to say what effect the drink habit and the di'ink tratiic iiave on your loan business / — Thay certainly iia\-e a %ery bad eflect. .'{.'i7(J0. l)o you find that borrowers who lia\e the drink habit are not as likely to pay the loans as total abstaintirs? — W'e certainly find that to a very large extent. Farmers who are heavy on drink {.generally ijo to the wall. .■{.'{"<) 1. They nejilect their business? -Yes. .S,'{7()2. Have you had experience of that kind in Manitoba? — I iiave had some, but I ha\e not had so many cases in Manitoba as in (Ontario. .S.'J7G.S. Is the drink halnt very prevalent anions the farmers in Manitoba? — In some localities it is and in other localities it is not. .■^■57()4. Then it differs accordint; to localities? — Yes. 3.'<7f)o. i understand you have noticed in Ontario that the drink trade and the (h'ink habit have affected injuriously your business? — Yes. Bij Jitdyi' McDonald : 337(1(). Have you suffered any loss fi'om drunkenness -I refer to the operations of voui- company in Manitoba ?-—! cannot say that we have suffered any particular los.s. We liavt> had to take land and have .sold it afterwards to other parties. I should not like to attribute the cause always to (hnnikenness, but it was an element in the matter. % Jtev. Dr. McLeod: .■{.■57()7. T suppose the Loan Company is not really the loser, but it is the liorrower who is the loser, bi>cause the Loan Company generally tries to cover itself fi-oni loss?-- We geiKM'ally try to cover ourselves. ;(.H7()'^. lUit you say that you have had to take l.intis ? — Yes, \j'rv fivipientlv. By Jiulyc Mr Donald : 33769. bi cases of people who do not drink? — We have. By Rev. Dr. Mr Lead : 33770. How lar;y^e a jiroportion of the ca.sesdo drink?- I do not keep any statistics. 3377L We had the ^[aiiaany in the Maritime Pro\ inces who made a statement from his rect)rd / — I keep no record of statistics of that kinn'o\ver ■mil loss'!-- itlv. statistics, aiices who .1. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) s •m Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. Hew ALEXANDER H. CAMEH«JN, ut' Brandon, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Judge McDonald : , M;?79"). How long have you I'esided in Brandon? — Only a few niontlis. .■{.■{7y(). With what denomination aiv you connected? — I am a niinistei' of the Preshyterian Church in Canada. •■{.'5797. How long have you lived in Manitoba I — Eleven yeai's. .■{.'5798. Have you ever resided in the North-west Territories? — Yes, for two years. I was in charge o*' the missi<88. th -Y< :{:?8U0. Was a prohibitory law in force in tiie Nortli-West Territ« with the permit system. .■}."?801. Did the permit system u]) to "that time include 4 })er cent beei"? — I really cannot say. .■$380:.'. But vou were there in 1880 and 1888? — Four per cent beer came in, I believe, in 1888. .■?:580."{. What law was in force in iievelstoke? — That was in British Columbia. :)3804. Wius the license law in force ?— Yes ; T made Donald my headipiarters. .'?.'?8Co. Was there a license law in force in Donald? — Yes, high license. .■{.S80(>. Were there many hotels selling? -There were about -W i)lRces ; Ki j>laces under license ;vnd 14 unlicensed. .'5.'5807. Was that wliile the construction of the Canadian Pacific Bailway was going forward ? — It was later. It was at the time of the construction of the aiow-shedsat th(^ finishing up of the work, fnmi 188("- to 1888. .■5;i808. Was th(> population of the place a fluctuating one? It was H actuating j the ])opulation was about ."JOO. .■{;{809. What is the condition of Donald now? — It is nmch better. .■}3810. Has the population diminished ?— In 1888 when I came east there was a population of l'.")0. ■5;{811. Are there many licensi^d hotels there now ? —Yes. .'5.'$812. How many? I understood that they were to be reduced to three. 1 think, however, that the numbei- was irduced to four. ;?;{813. At Re velstoke, how many were there? — There wer(! two between Donald and lievelstoke, and T think liipior was sold at almost every jilace there. .■?.'{814. What was the character of the li(|uui- sold? -It was spoken of as bad. :i.S81."). Were you at I'anti too? - Yes. .■{.'?81G. How did you lind the liquor there? They had |)retty good ale there. .{3817. How was it at Calgary? — Tt was not in my district. .■};{818. Was nmch li(|Uiii' sold at I5antl'? — Yes; I believe one man was arrested selling li((Uor thei'e and was tind !?1")U or about that amount. Liciuor was found in jiossession, l)ut it was proxcd that it iiad been ijrought in on a permit. :!;{8 lit. Was he selling it? Yes. .i;{8L'0. Had men the right to sell under sehes when arrested. •'{.'i8"_M. I supjiose the licpior ciiulil not l)t could not be tined. .■!;}8l''_'. What class of men were at Donald and Revelstoki' in those times/ — They were largely railway men woi'king in the I'ound-house, on construction or on tiie bridges. .■{.■{8l'3. What kind of people were engaged? Were they strangers who came in for the tinu' being, or were they a portion nf tlu^ regulai' inhabitants nf tht was during construction time and you might call it a "slab-town." .■i.'!8L'4. 1 suppose strangers arrivefl in considerable numbers' Y'e.s, fi'rent jiroxinces, some even from my native province. Nova Scotia. .'{.■{8".'). J>id any come in from • e Tnited States? — Not that 1 know of, .■{•■58'J(). Did they apj)ear to be all Canadians? — Y'es. Rev. Ale.x.wijeu H. Cameuon. 196 for his a permit? No; but they protected t hem- taken from them? Quite so, and they ' country ( from the it dif- 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■5."iS27. Was selling li(iuor all the husiiifss tliev had ? -l may say llii'i't- was one thing there that would nut ije authorized hy any other (ioxcrnnient .i vai'iety hall, regu- larly licensed hy ih;' British Columbia (jovernnient. 3.'J82S. Was there an immoral performance? That is what it I'eally covered. 3382!). Was there no jiolice supervision ? — I should have judged it better to ha\e had one decent and i-espectable pla(;e rather than halt" a do/en bad ones. .■>38.'{0. You mean that it would have been bettei' to have had one I'egularly licensed house under the control of the authorities, rather than a number of uidieensefl ones? 338."n. At J}anff, which was under the prohibitory law of the North-west Tei'ri- tories, did a better condition of things ])revail ? — Very much bettei'. At that timi Manft' I veiy satisfaetorv state ; tl lere was no iKiuor .so )ld The Superintendent was veiv strict, and he enforced th(^ law. .S3S3-.'. Where was it tl'iat th ide of lianrt'. an( 1 verv little smuggling. n had a permit ! — At Anthi-acite, five miles tiiis 3.')83.S. Is the population there connected with the coal mines? — Yes. 33S34. Then it was at that plj ice wnere the s; iale of liouor took iil lave refei re ci where the man was fined place to winch you ;t3,s.;.", V \n'\e any licensed places at Bantl'at that time? \o. 33h"'> !.>!'! • J see anything of the operation of the four ]pei- cent law in the Ti f- n tones 33S;57. Have vou been tl lere since th icense law came into operation ? -N( 3383S. How did you find the state of tilings in this province? — There is verv ijood I h oi'der mamtanied here 33839. Are you favourable to pi-ohibition ? — I am. 33840. I)f)you think it ])racticable / -Yes. 33841. Do you think it applicable ?— Yes. 3.38 I'J. Have you considered it as applicable to the country as a wiiole ? -Fi'om the vation of i>ublic contractors s, wiio cai ried it out on public wo rks that were beinj. )nstructed while the railway was btMng coiistruc'ed, i am of the opinion that such a law puld be carried out. 33843. What was their svstem of enforciJ>ir it • — <'n railroad construction, ea.st of on, anil lie lui I h 1' it the law in forct Winnipeg, Mr. Whitehead was in favour of piohibiti .■!3S44. At that time thai part ,if the country was underst 1 to be Keewatin, ;ind here were no permits granted V«'ould there not be a great deal of trouble in enforcing IJK fh an Act f— It was enfo'- ;■t le contractor with the aid of a constalile. 3384(;. Withtl le M 1 istablf T Wo constaliies were sutlicieiit for 37 miles cif work. .3.3847. Wei-e not efforts v ile to ' ring in liii> 33848. H ow were tiiose elii 't uctected? 'i'iie part les would no t be 1 oiiii "" t he pi'k before the constable would ii.ive information regarding then 338Hi. Did the men b .to show ,• the ellcct- )t the liiiuor W 338.-I0. I'^din what poi'.i was the iiipior bioiigiit in '.■ - !■" •").38.")l. IJid tliev briug it in in diU'ereiit kinils of ves.sel.s f— Ye.s, sometimes in nitn ip. ulvcerine cans, soiiKuimes in oyster cans, in barrels of sugar, etc 3.'t8,')2. Nitro-glycerine, I suppose, had to i le useii on th es ; and verv few men were found who cared to interfere with tii .3S.-)3. Vi; oiii what vou saw there, do you consider it |)i;u'ti(aliii' to prcvi-nt lii|Uoi ; into the countrv . I d( 33851. Taki IV' ti iiri.rv as a w hoi. e and the (luestion as a wiiole, looking at Nova Scotia, N- I'loviiii-e ( H runswicl !i;;.f I :'ince I'^dwarfl Island with their vast coa-st line.s, and tl 16 if (.^>uebec with (in (!iilf of St. Lawrence running through it, and the vast -t line of Uritish ('olumhia and the bound; ines ailioiiu nu the I'nited States, what systcMi would you aciopt to jirevent li(|Uor being brought in .' I do not care to enter I'll' t!. u matter. 'i.'*'''"''\ Have you stiidieil it all ? - No : in. ■iMi i . ohibitioii, I think it could lie done 197 hut t with a (!ov erniiKMit in favour of carrv- 1;! I| I. ii ^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. .■{.■{SoCi. Ynvi bt'lievoit could he doiu" witli an eHic'.<'ut |Hilice force? -Yes. .■?."{8")7. How would you jn'ovide fof the paynitMit of the foi'C(! ? — The force would be paid hy the (ioNermnent. .'{.■iHolS. I suppose the cost of nii'.intainini,' that force should, from your point of view, he met by the Government placing that law in force? — I think it would bi> money spent in the right direction .■i;$85!l. Would you be willing to beai- youi" share of the expense of the work ? — Yes. .■{.'58()0. In I'egard to the suppressii in of illicit stills, 1 suppdse you think a special force would have to be appointed ? — Yes. ;{."$8G1. Now illicit stills and smuggling are suppressed for license purposes, an deal with in case of the enactment of a gene- ral ])roliibitory law? — Yes. .■j;J8()2. But you would increase the force and make it sulKcient for the work .' Yes. 338G.'?. Have you considered the ()uestion of granting compensation to bi'ewers and distillers fur loss of plant in the event of a genera' (/vohibitory law being enacted ? — I am not in favour of granting comjiensation to them, ! ■! "' ■■; i 'ason : that those men have had sufficient infnrmatiun in n^yard to the gi'owth ilic sentiment in favour of jirohibition, to have taken warning. At the same tun . they were granted licenses for a certain term, 1 think they should be compensated, should ]irohil)ition be enacted for say six months, while the enforcement of the law would intei'fere seemingly witli their business. ■S;5iS(>l. Then you would allow them compensation forlossuf business for six months. Mould you pay compensatinn for- the machinery that brewei's and distillers are re(iuired by the GovernnuMit to put in their establishments? The Parliament from time to time passes laws requiring tlumi to adoj>t new improvements in machinery, so that the (Government may iiave a gi'eater I'heck on the manufacture of liipioi': and, moreover, the (Jovernment reipiire them to keep thcii' stocks of liiiuois for at least twii years for purposes of rectification before its sale is allowed. As i arlianient has enacced laws, compelling distillers to j)ut in s])ecial machinery and to keej) theii- stocks in bond for two yeai's, lia\e they not a fair claim for compensation ? I hav(> not studii'd that part of th(! t]uestion. ^.S^OT). Would it not seem I'easonabic that in <'acli case comiien-iation should b(^ made? - 1 do not think it should. .S.'iStiC). No more than in tlus cas( of the license ; The law reipiires and comjiels a licensee to have certain fittings in his house and in his bar J lb' practically stands in the same ])osition. .■{38G7. You would not allow him for the fittings? No. .'{.'?8()8. But you would allow him for the months during which the licence had yet to run l Yes. Bj/ Jirr. Dr. .]frLn„f : .'i.')8()'.). Ibiw many years ha\e elapseil since you left No\a Scotia?- I left it on .'lOth June this year. .'{15870. What part of Nova Scotia?- New (ilasgow. .■i.'i87l. Have you knowledge generally of No\a Scotia? No. .■i.'587L'. Ha\(' you (tl)served how loeal option works down there .' I was only \isiting there. ;i;587."t. So you would not like to express an opinion .' No, I went east, and \isited different ]ilaces ir. connection with the Cliuri-h work. Jiij Judge Mr Dm ml (I : 33874. Did you get to New (Uasgow, by railway ? Yes. ,'i;i87o. ^\'ere you at the hotel at the station? ]My friends lived there, and it is my honu'. 3387(). Then you did not notice whether any sale of intoxicating li(|Uors was going on? — There i-^ \ery little liipior sold in New (ilasgow. Kkv. Ai,i;.\.\xi)i:i( H. C.\mi;hon. 198 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 33877. Would you he jsurpriscd tliat jiassi'iiifi'r.s simply passing through hy railway could visit the hotel and have iiitoxieating litpiors sold to tlieiii at the table, publicly? — Yes, I have had in«!als at th(! hous;}88C). lias there been any change in the ciiaracter of tlie li(]Uor that the peiipie seem to favour? — That depends greatly on the weather. In the summer they want ligiit li(|Uoi's ; from now until lu'.vt spi'ing they want something stronger. :i:{887 Is liLfjer beer i niicli cnnsume( .■i88S. Is 1 I Y( 1 es, esiieciallv ni sunnner. demand falls oil' in winter. s its consumption increased m the summer months Hit the ).'i88!(. And the demand iiicreasi S ill sumilKM' I with th(> icrease in population. nippi . es, and it has increased that 1' .■i:!8i)0. Do you impo"t from Imi rope direct ? -Yes. .'i:>8i)l. And you also im|)ort from t)ntario ? Yes. from distillers and bre wers in ro\ nice, and also in W innipeg d.' !8!)l'. ]>) you give your orders through travellers or direct/ Some direct and others ifo throui'h Montreal. .■?8i);5. In regard to imported lii| itv, I Uol> lave you any opjiortunity yours( If of testiny tl lem as to purity, I moan by regular test : or do you take tliein on faith, as vou w lein :{.'{hi) 1. You receive them in the iiM packages in which you sell them. I sujip' . ? Yi A.-i .'i:58'.)."). You sell by the (piait or gallon? — Yes. .'!.'i8!)(!. What is the smallest i|iiaiitity you are liceiisi .'{.'58'.l7. 1 unilerstaiid you are a \\holesale !i(|Uor dealer under the Manitoba ijcense il tl A (|uart. Les. .■i.S898. Have you had any opportunity of obser\ii ible to stat(> whether it is well I'liforced or not iiivwhere b(!tter than in Brandon 1 d le license law, and ai'e vou o no t think it is enforced ;i.'?8!)i). Do vou think there is anv i 1 licit 1 d o not tliinl 11 lere is anv. 1100. You hav< k no kiiowie( Ige of X. iiniii .'iOOl. Have you ever considered the ipiest ion of the treatment of the |persistent kard ? You are aware that there are some men who are frecpiently before the coui't and sent to jail for short terms? In regard to those people who are not able to take care of themselves, j think tliev should be taken care of. .■|:!!IO'J. ^'(Hi think they should be ))laeed under some restrictions Th Act provides for that. It givi's a member of a family ))ovver tn get out an interdict 199 Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba. .'t;{lt0.i. Fii tlif lase nt" such a man you would place him in sonio institution where drunkcmicss is ticatcd as ji disease ?— Not at all. ;{.'{904. ])o you n it think the man would manage to get liquor? Are there notsome men in the trartie who wfiuld l)e disposed to supply the man whether he waa under an interdiction or not? — Not in this town. '.WM)^>. Then you do not think such a man eould uiet lliiuor here? No. .'{."illOG. Take a man such as i hi>,ve descril)e(l, who is a troulile to the eonnnunity, should he not he plai'ed ni an inehi'iate home or institution \vhen> he could he taken care ot"? — I think so. .S;5yU7. With a view to his reformation, it' jiossiijle ! -Yes. ;{;{908. I understood you to say that the use of Iit;ht wines and ales is a matter of climate? — Yes. .■{.'?90y. The Commission have been told that in Kurope or at all events in the southern pai't of it, the ju'ople use light wines instead of the heavier li(|Uors ? — Yes. .'J.'J'JIO. How is it in Scotland ? -They mostly use whisky. .■?.'V.)11. Is there any i)articular ditFei'ence between Irish and Scotch whisky ? —No ; it is a uuitter of flavour. ;^'59rJ. Have you had any experience of prohibition in any country ? -No, except in the North-west Territories. :$:$91.'{. Where were you residing? —I was at Moose-Jaw on business. .'}:!'.) 14. When were you there ? — Since the railway was there. .■i."591."). Was prohibition long in force then? — Y'^es. .■?.'t91(l. Was lit[Uor sold there ?- -I went there to push the permit trade. .'{;{917. Did you tind your trip successful ? —Occasionally I did. .S.'5918. What d(» you mean by ])ushing the permit trade?—! went to the Imtels and gave people a card, as 1 thought it was my right to do and mv interest to do. :\:V.n'.). Wen- you able to get driidi ? -Yes. .■<;59'_*0. How did you push the permt tiade ! I let the jieople know I was in the business, and where they could get the goods if they had permits. .■}."i9L'l. Then you mean that when a man had a permit he could send it down to you, and you would furnish the liquor ?— Yes. .'}.'i9l*:i. What quantities did those permits usually co\cr .' — Five oi' ten gallons at a time. \t first it was two gallons at a time, but it was aftei'wards increased. .S.'i 9 :.'."?. Were the men who had permits dealers in ii<|i'or ? -No, not altogether. Some were, and they would go down and get a cei'tain quantity. Then they would I'etiaii : I do not knr>w what they did with the li(pior, T presume they disposed of it. .■^■V. , 1 ',Vas there nuu'h trade built uj) in that way ? — Yes. 3.")92"). Was li(|Uor sent out to dill'erent sections? -Yes, from here tolMjrt Macleod, :5;59:.'(). Not north of the line ?— Y''e.s, to Prince Albert. .S.'{9'J7. Did jjermits come from all tho.se points f Yes. .S.?9!2iS. How was the liquoi- shipped ? Tt was shipped by express. Did you do any business in four ])er cent beer? \'ery littl Dill you supj)ly it to the 'i'erritories .' Not to any extent. Did you purchase any youi-self ? Yes. l)id you think there was more than foin' percent of alcohol :<:i9J9. ;j;i9:io. xvxw. '\'.VX\'2. l)id you think there was more than foin' p; r cent of alcohol in it .' I could not say. .'Ki!):!."). .Some one has exfiressed the opinion that ihere was more than four per cent in it '. — Sometimes the dealers would put something in it to mak" it sti'onger. Pedlars sometimes would put brandy in it. .S;VJ34. Were those [)edlars going about the country? Yes; but that piactice did not prevail to any great extent. There were always plenty of people who were anxious to go into the business. ;^.'?9."<."). Had you any o]iportunity of testing the liquor they wer«' peddling: ditl those people adulterate the li(|Uor xci'V nnu/li '. 1 was very cautions ; I was afraid of the whiskey up thei-e, I had heard so nuicli about it. .■i393(). Supposing a man got a permit for five gallons of licpior and brought it into the country and was going to jjcddle it. was it not a great tenqitation to him to increase tlu' bulk and at the same time to endea\(>ui' to keep up the alcoholic strength ? Jixactly. WlI,LI.\M I''ek(;usox. I''- ' ill 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 i".t-"(7. I)i. Not me people iniaLfiiii' thai ]i(|Uor could h- it out, hut I do not think it could, and it would come in hy ail kinds of way.' .■{.S9-t0. In case of the enactment of a prohihitory law, would you favour the gi'aiit in<; of coin|iensati()n to brewers and distillers for loss of plant f- I think a heavy license now. T 1 MWU. I><. you think they should 1 1 have paid ."?.jU() myself for a licens my; )e rennint rated for th stock nil hand pay a heavy license, and are obliged to carry a certain amount of litpioi\ Jiy Rrv. Dr. MrL.ml: .■{.■5!tl2. [s there .' lugglini,' of li((Uor now in this country, say into .Manitoba, where there is a license law .' I do not think so, not to my knowledge, .'5.">!)4.S. The Connnission is aware that there is extensive smuggling carried on in the Province of Quebec by the St. Lawrence rfiute ? -Yes : but I do not think that j)re- vails now. If, however, prohibition were enacted, there would be a gi-eat many enter the busine.ss. :}:{9U. h it a fact th It th ...i./TT. 1.^ n iioi .1 i.i^ I, iiifii 1. In order to feed the people who do not buy drinks / -That is al Ivi l.'5'.>.")'_'. Is that fair to the hotel-keeper .ind fair tn the people tl lemseUes lout It. Ill 111 the food and make it at the b ;:t!i.'i:i. Si ppose ten men go to ai hoti and live take drink, and the bote el, and live are |ieople vvlio are total alistainers proprietor t lara'es .•'.")!)()7. AVe ha\(' the deliveranee of youi' (Jluireh as gi%en hy the (Jenei'al .Asseuihly jit Montreal in If^'.K). I suppose you ha\e I'ead it? Y'es. ^ .'53908. As a niinistei- and as an individual, do vou eoiu-ur in that deli\crance ? — Yes. 339GI). Have you seen the working of ]irohil)ition in the Xoith-wcst Territories? — Y\'s. .■{.■{!)70. Are you able to say whether under that system tiie people could obtain liquor or not? I have seen men drunk, and I presume they i)urehased the liiputr. 3."5971. How have you found matters in liraiulon and in .Manitoba generally '. Have you found this to be a sol)er and law-abiding comnumity ? if I spoke c'omi)ara- tively, that is judging from the other provinees, i should say they are. .'i.'!'.)?-. I>ut you think the people are law-abiding on the whole '. \ think so. .■i;597.'5. You are ojiposed to the jiresent license law, of course? Yes. 3.'5974. Do you think tliat the lii. using of the trallic is in itself sinful?- I do not know exactly how to answer that que- ion. 3.'{97i). We lia\'e met some witnesses in Winnipeg and in otlier parts of Canada who took the ground that it was sinful to license at all, and I simjily wished to elicit your opinion on that ]ioint, before asking you in irgard to the license la« ? There has l)een a doubt in my mind whether pi-ohibition under some circumstances, for instance as I saw it in some parts of the Territories, was better than license. Jiut even if 1 were to supjtose that license under some circumstances might jierhaps be better than jirtt- hibition under certain circumstances, that would hardly answer your tpiestion. I have had no personal experieni'e, and 1 do not know how I c<)ul(l gi\c an opinion on the matter. 33971). \} you consider the licensing of drinking to be a sin? I am inclined to that view. .■i.'i977. Knowing nothing as to what the etlect of untrammelled sale would be, you are unable to say wliethei' a license law would be jileferable i J could not. 3.S97S. Taking the license law as it is, and assuming that it is the law, could you suggest any amendment to it? -No ; 1 have nothing to oiler. .33979. In case of the enactment of a geu.M'al j)rohibitory law, would you favour the granting of compen.sation to bi-ewers and distillers for loss of plant ] \ cannot see why they should be compensateil. 3.39(^0. ^'ou would be opposed to that projHKsition I Yes. By AVr. Dr. MrL,„d : 3.3981. In youi- position as Superintendent of the Missions Hoaid of Aianitoba .ind the North-west Territories, luue you obser\ed whether the liquor ti'attic- as it luis been William Kkik.ison. 802 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 geiieriilly (.-iri-icd on iiiid tlic li(|U((r liiil)it liii\c prixUiced i soi'iiil !Ui(i inuiiil iiilci'csts <)t"tl It' omm n|uiiuus cH'ci'ts nil the l)usiiu'ss, try, iir liiivc tlii-y i>i'(i(lu<'('(l liciit'ticifil t'trccts / I think tlic litiuor tiviHic iifli'i-ts uiit'avi)Ui'iil)ly tlic iimriil fiiiil rcliy 'nni'^, ;iii< I I the I USIllfSS Illtt'l't'StS (I f tl M' ('(IllllllUIIlt V. •'iDSL*. As a iimiistt'i-, luivc vuu uljscrvcd your own [HTsimiil work as wi'll as in lid tils II your jiosition as liaviiig su|>t'riiitcridciict' of tiic work of otiier ministers, tlmt tlio li(|i tratlii' is an inti-rfcrt'iu'c with Christ iii I'k ? Y( .'i.'i'.ts;?. Have you ohsci'scd whctlu-r the li(|iior tralHt (• IS III any dcificc rcsjions hi. for t-riiiit' and jiovcrty, doinestii' trouble, nt'j^lfH-t of cliiidrfii and iit'<,'li'ct of ri'ii;;ion '/- - I'ndouhtt'dly so, in a Ncry larj^e dt';,'i'cc. .■5.'{!)onsil)lc for tl lose trold)l(!S Notl iin< •Isc tiiat I am aware of. .'i."iltfS!l-!)0. That would be back to 18.S7 .'!'J!*1. l)id you obserNC that the ])ermit system was administered witli a great deal of loo.seness and that scarcelv aiiv discretion was exercised in regard to it It was ally reported that this was the case, ;\inl later on, in lN^<'.l, ]iermits to bring in ijuantities of li((Uor for sale were granted. 3.'5!)"J"_'. Have vou obsei'ved whether there IV ditl'( ereiice in the ouaiitit v of liiiuor consumed an 1 and the drinkiii'' habits of the i)eo|)le i;enerallv under the iiresent licen as compared with the permit system .' < )f course the present system has 1 tioii oiilv a verv few months. As vet I lia\e visited the 'I'eirit I* se law M'cn in o]iera- t the il /eiieral imiiression, as expressed to me in various ipi I U Its of tl ones iiiilv oiu-e, hu le couiiti'\ , was that lh< MrmKinu' iiai: 1 been far in excess of what it was previously. I I'll )\\' All 1 > ■! I'KES, of Ihaiidon, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: — lU/ Jiulyc McDonald : ' ."{."i'.lll.'i. \\'liat is your occupation?--! am Manager (jf this branch of the Im- perial Bank. •■5,'<9't4. li(jw long have you resided in .Manitoba.' l."> years this ! you resided in Itraiidon .' 10 years last April. • IMyjC). Did you come here from one of tin- other |)ro\iiices.' I came from ()ntaiio, tVoiii 'i'oronto, to Winnipeg; but 1 originally resided in St. Catharines. • !.'i997. Have 3'ou .seen a good deal of change in this countiv since vou canieluM-e? — Y'es. ;i;eople regard- inn' the use of into.xicaiing be\erages ? -I cannot say that I ha\f noticed very much ihaiige. 1 have seen a gooil deal of drinking and late hours, but considering everything, there is very little drinking in this province. •'5.'Ut!)i). Are the people .sober and law-abiding jieople? They certainly are. 803 I. nil Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ii| ;^. ;^I000. Have you ((IjscrNcd the wnrkiii'; nt' llic litHMisc law in tliis pai-ticiilar com- imiiiily, wlictlicr it is iciiMUialjly well ciit'niTcd and obsfis imI l)y I he pcnpic ? I have IK'I paid vci'V iiiutli alti-ntioii tu it. ."itOOi. Ha\f you c'ousidt'i't'd tin- (|Uc.stion of liij,'li licciisi' and tlie liiiiital ion of iln' nunilicr of licenses or any of tiie (|iU'stions in eoniieetion witli the lii|Ui)r tratHc ? — I cuu- not say that I have considered them. I do not think a few more licenses would make any dilleience. .'ilUO:.'. Suppose liy lej;islation, either the hotel har or the saloon bar had to he done away with, vvhicli would it he hetter to (hspense with in the interest of the community? — I sluiuld say the saloon har. ;?400."5. r su[ipose you haxc no knowledge as t(» whether illicit sale takes place here or not '.' No. :M00I. Take your husiness as an e.xampic ; have you found that the liijuor- trathc has any particular ell'ect on it? — (Jf course in this district it has very little etlect. Tiiere is only one brewer here and his output is very small. The cHect would, of coui'se, he j,'reater in lai'<{cr i)laces. where there are distilleries and lari;e hreweries. .'MUU"). What I desire to inquire is this, whether the drink trade has any etl'cct on the husiness of the counnunity as a whole, and whether you tind it is at all disadvan- tatceous ,' — It is certainly a very dangerous thinj;, this drink, l>ut I have had vei-y little experience that way. In this section it has not affected our husiness in any way. .■{■J00<). Ha\t' you considered the i|Uestion of i,'cneral prohibition for the whole Dominion: ha\f you ever li\('il in a prohibition countrv .' No, I never ha\e. I am op|)iised to prohibition. .'UUU7. Are you opposed to prohil>it ion in principle .' — Yes. 1 think it takes away a man's rij^ht, to a certain extent, to think and act for himself. .'U00i*<. Supjiosing that such a law were passed, do you think it would be practic- able, and that it could be enforced? I do nt)t think that it could be carried out in a satisfactory manni'r, or that it would be backed up by the voice of the pco]i|e. i would be more inclined to close up the bars and let treating' be done away with. I thiidc such n measure would do more good than actual prohibition. .'itOO'.l. You think there must be a very strong chani;e of |iublic sentiment in its favour before such a measure could be successfully carried out ? Yes. .■$4011*. What tlitliculties would you apprehend in the way of carrying out such a law? There are certain classes who will have li(|uoi' at any cost, aiul there is nodoul)t that they will tintl some means of getting it, and will get it. ."VWll. Ha\e you considered the ipu'stion of granting coiniiensation to brewers aiul distillers foi- plant and machinery, in the event of the enactnuMit of a genei'al ])rohibitory law? — r certaiidy think they should be I'emunerated. ;5401:i. Ha\e yt)U had any ex|)erieiioe in I'aii'ope, where light wines and light beers are used .' - No. •'5401 -■>. It has been suguested that probably the use of light wines and be(>rs might be (lt>sirable in this country, the use of them to a larger extent than at present, iti preference to stronger li(|U(;irs .'- -T think that would tend to reduce the ill effects of the liquor traile. .■{4014. Have you cvt'i' considered the ijuestion of the treatment of the persistent drunkard, the man who is constantly before the police court and is sent to jail foi- short terms, and then is back again? Have you considered wiu'ther it would be advisable to place such a man in an institution for inebriates ! — Yes, T maintain that that should be done with a view to his reformation. -I would have them Hi/ A'er. Dr. MrL.orf : ;!|()|."). How would you maintain those inebriate homes organized as they are in the I'nited States. .'UOUi. Does tin- State maintain them? — Yes. ."HOI". You have state .liKi;s. 201 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 link tlici'c is iniirt> ilriiikiii^' ;;<>iii;,' cm in tin- siiloon tliMii in tlic Imtc l>ui I til ilic liittcl l)iir is |iriii('i|iiilly used hy tin- i,'ii('sls ut' llic liuiisc, anil tl icir IS nut as I'inki I'lilt That, at all cNcnts, has \'vi\ my <'X|it'ri('nt IHOIH. TlicM yini tliitik tln> .salixm is inort- (liinucrdus as a drinkin;; place ! ^'l^s ; lit'caiisc the jti'iiprit'toi' of the hnti'l « ill certainly endeavniir to see that his har is carried an tirdeils' III! in ''iven to anv man wiio is inclinec inaniiei', and he w I t ill only emjiloy men who will not allow liinior o anv extent to cieale disord to Ik er. lUOl'.l. i think the law piohihits ilu> sale to any drunken man, and also after cer- tain hours mid t>ii Sunday, Mo you think saloon men are not cai'eful as to whether tliey still to drunken men oi' to soher men I I do not think they are as carefid as they iiiii,'ht he ; 1 do not think the law is carried out as strictly as it should he. .'UOl'O. It is claimed l>y sonic persons that the hotel har is more daiii;erous I han I he saloon har, for this reason : that while, on the one hand, the saloon is a place where liipior IS so Id. an( 1 wl lere onlv men who have developed taste for liipior visit, and for tlr purpos(> only of ^'ettinji firink, and le not the ri;^ht to try and rid themselves of what they consider to he a dan;;er ! 1 certainly think that if prohibit ion, supported by public o])iiiioii. could be carried out, it lid be a l;oimI thiiiy, and 1 for one wouh lb' onlv too ''lad to see it ln'oll ;llt iUHlUt. .•U0-. Tl u'n vou tliiii k it Would he a ;{oud tliiii'', it it cou Id 1 )(• ei iforced .' I think so, if it could be strictly tMiforced accordiiiij to law. .'540'24. Wo it is a ([uestion of the ])raoticability of enfort'ini,' it, rather than a ip tion of principle.' I hardly think it is a ]iraclicable tliiii!/ Jiiifyc Mi-Doniihl : •'i402flt'asc .' If tin* nioncv sjicnt on fust liornr's imd on tliciitri' i»irt it's were cxiPi'ndcd ill i»tlnT ways, would it not l)e iM'tti-r if put into ic;,'ulai' channels of trade ,' — Yes ; tliere is a ir'xxl dfal to Im- said on lioth sides. ;{HtL".». So far as expendituro jjfoes, is lliere not the ijiiestion of the I'i^rjil of people to spend their own money as tht'V |>lt'ase .' ("ertaiidy. .'<40.'tO. In ■'('■{anl to the (|uesti()n as to tli(< hotel and saloon liar. The ipiestion has JK'en put to you as to whother, takinjj; sample cases of youn^ men, a youni; man mi;,'ht not iiit into a hotel to set? a friend on husiae.ss and goini' there he tempted, and thereby evil Iw (lone, and you have said that it is possible. Hn the other hand, are there not many younj; men, who wcaild not ;,'o into u hotel and drink In^fore the j^niests, but who would slip i|uietly into a saloon and drink .' That is the i-ase. Hi/ Her. Dr. McLend: 'A¥y.\\. !><) you think prohibition is an attempt to makf people s{>en(l their inr>ney in other ways than they desire ? -No ; F understand the meaning; ui prohibition to be to |>ruhibit liipior eominj,' into the country at all and the use of it as a bevera;,'e. '.Wiy.Vl. Do you consider a prohibition law, whatever may l>eyoui- view of proliibition. is e«lucative, lK>cause the li({uor tratlic Is, ail things considered, a great injuiy to the country at large f — Yes ; I V)elievo so. .■{4U3;{. Ant! it does not compel men to spend money in some way or other, but it is viewed as a means of [ireventing the evils that result from the di-ink tratlic .' Yes. ."UO.U. Tliat is the belief of its (ulVoeates, I tliink? — Yes. .STKPHKX (.'LHMKXT, of I {randon, Sheriff of the Western .hulicial Di.strict of Manitoba, on lieing duly sworn, depf>sed as follows : — Jiy .lii; MfDiinidd : '^\()'^'^. How loiijL, nave you resided in Manitoba? — J came here in the sjiring of 18S0. 340;^t). Have you resiii^d all that time in Urandon? - J.'o. I resided in the >4J. How did it operate in the Territories .' — In some ways it was lieneficial, but it was a farce to a great extent, I think. iU04."5. Did the people have intoxicating li(|Uors to flrink ?- 'J'hey would get a cargo or a similar i|Uantity occasionally, and then they would get together and drink to excess : they were not moderate about their drinking. :i4044. They would use up the cargo, 1 sujipose .'--Yes, I remember u]> at Shoal Liike there was a case of a merchant and n farmer. The farmer got a live gallon cargo, cand both of them soon got the worse of liijuor, and the merchant went home without his Inxits. 3404.'">. What became of the farmei* ? — The farmer Itxiked after the merchant, and took him home. 3404t). That li(juor was got under jiermit? — Yes. 34047. Was licjuor ever smuggled into the Territories? — Yes. Edward Jikks. 20t> ' 67 Victoria, Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 •{4U4<'^. !><> yoii kiinw !lllylllill^ iilioiit the I'liiinu'trr uf tin- li(| iiur, w hrtl KT It \Ml> lU Usvt lultfniteil witli i-itiii|M)UMou found tliis tn diidi am I suU c-ninmuiiitv It diiitit tn tl le avt-fayr ■UU">"J. i>iK'sit fDMijiaro t'avuuialtly witli what yuii liaM- know ii 4. Havf you iiiurh crinic /-Not for as largi' a district as this. larucnv. 340.')'). How many prisoners have you in jail '/ Prohalily live or six. .'540.")t>. What charj;cs arc at;ainst tlicin / — A jj[ood many prisonors are there fur .■U0."»7. Ha\c you ever known a larjic proportion of tluMii committed owinj; to the usv- of intoxicatiiifi licjuor'- In rej^ard to the jirisoners now in jail, I could not sav much ulKjut them : hut taking; prisoners jjenerally, I think that proliahly the greater proportion of the crimes are committed throu^di li(|Uor. .'{lO.'iS. You mean directly or indireitly ! Yei .■U(J."i'.t. Have vou oliserved the workinji of f th license here? — Not \erv particularly. •"{4060. Are there any amendments you are able to sufi^jfvsl to that ! w with a \ ie to believe that there is illicit sale of iiipior at iJrandon til makin<; it more eH'ective / — Ni .'UOtil. Have you reason ' not know of any. 'UUti'J. J)o your iluties cause you to travel much over the I'ountry / .Not much. .406.'$. Do you employ a deputy ? — Ye.s. 1 travel a little sometimes. .'{40(i4. In your travellinj; do you learn facts to lead one to suppose that then? is illicit sale carried on ?■ I think there are places without lii'ense that lirinj.; in liijuor iiccasiopally. .■> KJO-"). iUit you have no personal experience on that point, I suppose? — No. .'UOGfi. Have you considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the man who is haliitually before the Police (jourt for drunkenness, and who i;; imprisoned for short terms '. Are you able to say whether it would be desirable to lock up such men for loiif; terms in inebriate asylums? -I have never j,'iven that, matter much consideration. The case-, that come under my notice are .so varied. 'I'liere are some men svho take a little iiccasionally and are inafle drunk ; it would be a pity to tak<' them from their frienrls. ."iU)t)7. In am not speak in;i of that class of man, but of those who are constantly iii'fiire the Police Court and art? sentenced for short terms? — I would decidedly a[iprove lit' imttiin; them in inebri.ate asylums when they ;ire of no j;ood to their families. .'{ KJtifi. Comint; to the i|Uestioii of jnohibition : are ymi favuurable to prohibitinri as ii i)riiicij>le ? — I am. .) 1009. ^Vllat do you think of the practicability of (!nforcing a jjeneral measure .' — I think it could be enforced with very little diHicully. :i407O. What machinery would you adopt for the jiurpose of enforcing it? — I have never none into that. ■MOTl. liut that is one of the ipiestions we have to face. We have a country with a i-iiast line on two oceans. The Maritime Provinces occupy a larj;e coast line ; Prince I'Mward Island is entirely surrounded by the sea ; there is the (luif of the St. Lawrence Kiver running up into Quebec ; then there is the I'nited States boundary, and the Pacific Ocean on the west: take the .sentiment in those Provinces: consider the strong prohibitory sentiment in the Maritime PriA'inces, the strong feeling in (Quebec opposed '" ]irohibition, <>ntario probably in the balance, and the stroni, feeling in l5i-itish • iilumbia against it: would enforcement throughout the who'.e of the country be I'lacticable, or would you look upon enforcement oidy in this Province as practicaljle? If su, how would vou le wiio say tliat, it' liquor was not manufactured, there would he n«, ditHculty, and it" respeetahlt^ men were jiut as otHeors, men who woidd not aec;!])t hrihes, tht? law could he cai'i'.ied out. •'UU72. In re<(ard to the Customs law and Inlajxi Ilevenue law, have you not in each ot' these cases a law that has the symijathy of the great hulk of the [leople all over the country hehind it! — Yes. 'MOT.\. Would you have that weight of sentiment witli you if the.'e were a prohi- liitory law enacted '( — I think we would. ;MU7 t. Do you think that at least tw(j of tlit! Provinces which would he against it would fall into line and sujjport it ? — 1 should not like to .speak very niucii ahout those provinces tliat would opjiose it. The French people are quite different Irom Ontario peopl(! and are more disposed to ih'ink ; I have had very little experience of them, liowever. .■M07-">-7G. Would not tlii^ occupation of Collectors of Customs and Inland Revenue ix'gone in the event of the enactment of such -i la'.v. for th(;re would he no iidand revenue to collect —i,i' f'ourse there might be some in Queljec ? Would you have olHcei's* sjieciallv appointed to enforce such a law ? — I have not given much considei-atiou to the matter, l)ut at the same time it appears to me that if it was the (htty of tlie iM)lic;' constables and otlicers to get inf(jrmation and if there was a penalty attachcfl in case of their failing to do so, the work would be done. 'MOn. You would require those otticers who ai'(> connected with the administration of justice to look afte" the enforcement of a general jirohibitory law? — T'lat is a good u'/-i, stated bi'ieHy. .■M07i'^. Would you favour the granting of compensation to hn^wers anddistiileis for '••■■s of plai:*^, in the event of the enactment of '. general prohibitory law ,' — My idea is that where they have been running, say five years, they have had a pretty go(jd op]ioi'- tunity of making money and cttmpensation should not be very extensive, though [ tiiink some I'enumeration might be advisal)ie under some circumstances. ;jt07'.>. It has been suggested in the case of licensees, that in the event of such a law beii'.g pas.sed, it would be fair to remunerate them for loss of Ousine.ss during the year for winch they have licenses. What is your opinion in regard to that matter /-It do( .•■ not seem just and e<;'iitable to give tho.se men licenses for a yeai- and then take away their business. It appears to nie they should Ik allowed to run out their year; if not, i'econq)ense should be made them for the balance of the time. 34080. Have you considered at all the (pu'stion of the encouragement you tind tliat tlie people here arc .solicr jiiul hiwaliidiiii; poople? — Very much so. .'540^8. Have you oljserved whether the license hiw is t'airly well observed! — I think it is well observed. .'HOi^i). Have you reason to suppose that there is any illicit sale ot' liipior in JJran- don? — At tlu^ present time I have no idea of any liipior bcini; sold outsich' of lii'ensed places. .'HODO. Ha\e you had, in the course uf your medical pi'actice, any reason to suppose that the li(juoi's consumed are impure ami adulterated? — Yes. :540'.)1. Do you refer to importe" bottle, tiie straw cov- ering, the capsule, the label, the cork, the packane and the freight from Kurope, and the liijuor is solil at !<1.40 [ler case of two dozen bottles in Canada. Could you hope at. such a price to obtain pure brandy? — Certainly liOt ."5409."). Have you e^■e!• (Considered the i uestion of the treatment of th.; p(;rsistent drunkard, the man who goes from the police court to the jail for short teniis and back again? — We have a tew here. .S409(). Ts tiiat a wise course to pui'sue, or would it be better to enac* a law to place such men in an inebriate asylun- ? — Those people are disided into two or three classes. I have patients admitted to the hospital, who have coiii(> to me and askeii me to have them interdicted; and I have known two or three to be interdicted and never take a drink during the whole term of their interdiction. There are some, on the ether hand, who '.'ig so hard for drink, after tlu^y had been interdicted, tiiat the interfiiction is of no use, for they will get li(pior .somewhere. That class of men should be contineil in inebriate asylums. .■(4097. Have you considered the advisability of enc(/uraging the use of liglil wines aiid beers with a view to diminishing the use oi the lucavier li(piors ? - Yes. :U098. Have you considei'ed the (juestion of prohibition? — In the first pluci^, I do not know what prohibition is. .■M0!:'9. 1 mean the j)rohibition of the manufacture, imiHirtation and sale of intoxi- riifing li(|U'ivs f(>r bexerage jiurposes, and allowing their use for medicinal and sacra- mental purposes. '>f course under such prohil)iti(ni a man could not liaxc li(|iiors in his own house .'-—Certainly. , :i410U. That is national prohibition as asked for in this Dominion. Do you think '•uch a law would be advis.-ible? 1 do not think it is practicable. ;U10I. D(! you think it could be enforced?- -]So. .\ continental law n!ij;li; be enforced. •'UlO'i. You refer to a law proliibiting the manufacture on the continent? — Yes. .'i410."J. AVith the great length of sea coast, with vessels constantly arriving, do you liilieve that continental prohibition could 1 nforced ? I do not think it is possible to ■iitirely prohibit the sale or use of liipiors. ."'lilOl. What is the etl'ect on a community of ha\ingon the statute-book a law that is ]i(;i\sistently and ilagrantly violated?—! think it has a demoralizing etlect on the loinimmity. •'MIO."). You mean on tiio ])ublic conscience?. — Yes. I think it is liable to turn our iiMTage citizen.s, or at h^ist a jiroportion of them, into illi'Mt dealers. ."lllOti. Do you think ii such a. law were iias-.:ed and then flagrantly and persistently \iolated, it would be an educator for good? — Ye.s, for go(jfl. .'14107. In what way? — I think if a majority of the people aiMs against drinking, Miinc people will go with the majority, (juite a few will be so intlueuced. If men know 21—14** 808 I !;ti \ 1 'lil' '! '■( \t III! I i Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ^ that the sentiment of the country is for prohibition, many of them wlut take drink now will not ta.^e drink under other ciicumstances. ,'U108. Is that the way it would 1)0 hen.'ticial? — Yes. 34109. And you do not think that it could be practically enforced ? — No. 34110. Do yoil think ii, would be advisable to grant compensation to brewers and (Hstillers for loss of plant, in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law? — They have bern recognized by the law, and to come down and say that they will not carry on their business any longer would certainly be unjust. I think if a prohibitory law were passed, they should be a lowed time in which to change their distilleries into otlier manufacturing establishments and to make other investment-i of their capital. They should obtain fise or ten years time in which to make those changes, 341 1 1. We liave had evidence given by a reverend gentleman frmi his point of view, that in the event of the passage of such /i law, it would be reasonable that men in the trade whose licenses have not expired siioulfl rceive remuneration lor loss of business during the balance of the year or term, or tlv \' should be allowed to run to the end of their term (— l do not think that that is enough. 34112. You think that they should receive more, that is the licensed dealers?' — Yes. If a man invests .^4,000 or §0,000 in the trade undei- tlie present lii-ense sys- tem, I do not think it is suthcient to allow him the balmce of his licensi", say for six months. 34113. Then you would allow him something for loss of investment I suppose? — Yes, and allow liim an opi)oi'tunit\' to get into some other kind of business. Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLnod: 34114. Why would you encoui'age the use of light wines and beers ?— Because I do not think they ;ire at all detrimental to health. 34115. You think the eiicouragemen: of th' ir U'-e would practically do away with the use of strong liquors ? — Yes. I cortitinly think so. 341 1(). Have you been in France I — Yes, for a short tint" only. 34117. it has b en claimed that the use of liglit wines by the people wvv. (juite com- mon, tliat they form part of the daily foo I ? — Tiat is so. 34118. It is claimed that among ])eople under such circumstames there is very little drunkenness ; \'et, against that statement, it is alleged that generally after a gene- ration or m 111' there nas been an increase in tlie alcoholic habit. It is iKci-ssary to state against that contention that some people urge that, the increased use of strong liijuoi' is because of the lessened supply of li lit wines, on account of the damiige done to the vines by the phylloX'i'a. Do you think the use of wines is evil, for N'-heii the supply is dimiiii.shed the j)eople resort to string licpioi's : wfiuld it seem to indie ite that thei'e is ail apjietite for stimulants that must be satisfied in some way .' — I understand that you wish t i know whether I believe the us^^ of light wines creates and keeps up an appeute for stimulants. 3411!). Yes. Tliat is a (piestion which is regulated by di'lerent ciivumstances. For instance, the use of light wines in this country would be so expensive tliat I do not think the use of them would ever be as general as in Paris and France, so 1 caiinoL exactly answer that <|Uestion. 34120. You think the general use of light wines is scarcely applicable to our condi- tions? — I do not think it is. Of course, as regards light lieers it is a dill'erent iii;'tter. 34121. As a practising physician, have you observed whether the use of intoxi- cants is detrimental to health? — I certainly believe that the use of intoxicants in excess is detrimen al to health. 34122. Is the habitual use of intoxicants detrimental tt) health? — I do not know wliatyou mean by habituul use. 34123. Let me tell you what I mean : 1 mean the u.se of some intoxicant every day, perhaps a glass of beer in the morning and at noon and at night, or a glass of wine with au occasional g'ass of brandy, but not drinking to excess in the sense of getting half seas over or anything of that kind, but the iMbitiial use of alcohol every day at home ? — I do not think that a glass of beer or a gliisa of wine would cause the slightest damage to any one. John a. Macdonald. ''■ 210 a 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 le I do I licit' is IlluU you lices. For ^lot tliink exactly lur ciiudi- It iiii'ttcr. lif intoxi- liu exL^ess liot know [very diO' niie with I half 8eii« lie I— I do l^e to any 34124. Have you noticed whether the habitual user confines himself to that, or whether there is a stronj^ tendency to increase the use'?— I have never seen a man whom I have known turn into a drunkard. The drunkards I have seen have been ready made. I have never seen the process of incubatiun. .■5412"). Do you think they were born that way ? — I thijdv there is an element of truth in that ; I think it is an inherited complaint. .■J4126. Have you noticed whether th(^ children (jf liabitual users are more likely in any dej^ree to become users in a lar;4<'r degree than their parents? — No. I may (juute my own family in that regard. Aly father also hail whisky in his house ; thei'e were seven boys, and none of us have drunk to exct;ss, and wi! can either take it or leave it alone. I have left it alone, and have nevei' taken a di'iiik tV)r two or thi'ee yeai's at a time, and I do not know that I have e\er been the worse foi' licjuor. 34127. Were you the better or worse during the time you prohibited yourself? — T do not think I was as well, if I tell the honest truth. .'54128. You thiidv your general health was not as good ? —I do not think i was tpnte as bright, although 1 must say tl at I do not drink li(|Uof at any time sutlicient to stinudate me. I take a glass of bt n; or if late at night I come home tired, I take a glass of whisky and water. 1 am not, however, a haliiluul user of it. 34129. You spoke of some people being ready nuide with an inherited appetite for alcohol. That appetite most surely was not an oi'iginal one ? — That is, of course, open to discussion. 34130. Would not that be a matter of heredity at any rate ?— Tlieri^ ai'e some people who must do things out of order. I remember a man who smoked to excess if he had nothing to drink. He was a practising physician, arul sinnetimes he would take a little chloroform. Tt seemed that he was bound to ilo something out of the common. .34131. 1 suppose that would not be to his benetit?- No. .'54132. Then you do not think it injures a man to use alcijliol modi'i'ately ? — It does not. 34133. Take a man with a severe fevei' ; has such a patient any better chance of recovery if he happens to be a total abstainer ? — 1 do not thiidv a total abstaimi- has any advantage over a man who has taken litjuor in moderation during his life ti .341.34. Do you think the bar-room is a necessary institution ?---N). 341.3."). Do you think that it would be a good thing in the interestof the comnuuuiy to abolish the bar-room ! — -Yes. Looking at it from my jioint of view, no stimulant should b<> furnifJhed without food. ■■)41.3t;. You mean as part of the daily diet ? — Yes, if taken at all. 34137. Do you think the ]ieople who do not take it are better or worse without it? — 1 know .some men who would l.>e in better health if they took stimulants from time to lime. .34138. Would they be few or many? — They would form a very large nnnority. By Jud(je McDonald: 34139. Speaking as to the question of jicisons taking alcohol habitually ; are there nut tliousaiifls of people who take a glass of ale or a glass of wine and never go beyond tli.it '. I suppose so. 31110. Is it not true, as a matter of history, that in l-" ranee for generations, for hundreds of years, the jieople have been drinking light wiiujs?-— 1 sup}ios(! such has been the case. 341 11. Do you find that the use has been pioducti\ e of bad residts ? — Yin ordinaire is uv(3(l everywhere. Thei'e is a matti't' in regard to prohibition I should lik(^ to make a rrinark about. A jirohildtion vote has been recently given in this Province. Although I briieve that tlu^ ])eoj)le who voted for prohibition, at least the majority of them, lit'lieved that prohibition for the whole Dominion would be a good thing, I do not believt! that half of the people who voted at tin; plebiscite believed in jn'ohibition for the Pidvince. By Rev. Dr. Mc.Leod: •3U42. On what do you base that ojiinion ?~1 do not .see how ])rohibition in the province could l)e carried out, if it cut od' the revenue from the traflic. Under such con- i !l n-i4j 211 ** Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. )«' ditions I do not hoc. how the provisions of sucli a law coidd lie c-iiriicd out. If tlu> Act were , so that a man earn- ing §1 or §1.25 ]ier day^ would be unable to obtain sulHcient driid< to make himself drunk, and prohibition, ] would vote for high license, because that is j)racticable and prohibition is n.it. 341;'')0. So you voted for prohibition on account of its principle? — Yes; I should like to see less drinikenness. 341;')1. Do you think that others \oted for it for the same reason ] — Yes. 34ir)'J. You have had experience of the Scott Act, 1 believe?— No; but I have sticii man J' results of it. T hold that a man who wants a drink should be able to get it. 1 refused to sign a petition for local option when it was brought round. ."HI").'!. It has been stated in some sections of the ])rovince, where the Scott Act has been in force, and when^ it is ke])t in force by tiie repeated efforts of the people, that the sj'steni by which men who ai\' in the trade are lined for the first offence .i^oO, but which never goes beyond the first offence, was e4171. Have you a cojn' of the deli\«'ranee ? Yes. (Ajipendix 5.) ■'!H7-'. What is your opinion I'cspcetiiig prohibition : ai-e you favourable to it ? — I am strongly in favour of it. ■'UlT.'i. Are vim ojiposed to a license law? •'in 74. Hut as between a license law ,uid pri'fer? On mo 'al principles it seems to me that tlit; licensing of the trallie is wrong, and iliiiough that seems good enough ground to stand on, yet it seems to me that any thing tliat will lessen i\\v liipior trallie is a good thing. ■U17r), Then, in principle, you consider the licensing of the traiHe is wrong, but you "■mid not favour untrammelled sale? ^Yes. • !I17<'). Of two evils you would choose the least ! -It seems about on the liiu' of lici'iwing jiro.stitution, as is done in some places south. ■I'll 77. Do you think they stand on the same i^latform ?- 1 could not be induced to liriiise prostitution on any account. This li<|uor business is a great moral evil. ■ill 7)^. Have you considered the (|ucstion of gi'anting compensation to brewers and ili'iillers for loss of plant, in the event of the passage of a general prohibitory law ? — I lia^i' studied the ijuestion as it was brought up in I'^ngland some time ago. While ther —" 213 s As comjiared with prohibition, I am. intrammelled sale, which would you Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba. h < is tlie principle of fairness, and I suppose we Imve to he fair even to those engaj^ed in this husiness, yet the men entered into a liusiness which has l)een one thai destroys tlie interests of the country in various ways, and w liether in such a case as that, it would be rif;ht to make compensation, is a (|uestion. 34179. We have heard a witness to-day who declared that, in his opinion, it would 1)0 right in case of the passage of a prohibitory law to renmneratt; those who were licensed, for the Imlance of tiie lic(Mise year 1 — I have iAird that statement made and similar statements made, and 1 do not know whether if the matter was put before me for my vote, I could say that those people had a right to compensation or not. .'54180. Take the matter in this way : A man takes a license from the Government to sell intoxicating beverages for a year. Within six months the Government having expended that fee, closes up his business. Would you in such a case say that the man has not a right to receive compensation? — He went into that business against the wishes of those pettple, who, in my opinion, have correct views in regard to this matter, and he has injured the connuunity in various ways in the meantime. He has taken money and given no recompense, except in a way that it would injure the conununity that used the stuff. I am afraid that as regards the li({Uor men, I would not be willing to give them compensation of any kind. 34181. Have you considered the (|uestion of the treatment of the persistent drunkard? — Do you mean anything in connection with the ''gold cure " treatment? .■U182. I understand that the "gold cure" systeu) is a voluntary matter with a man or his friends ? — Yes. .'54183. Take the man who is ct)nstantly before the police court and sent to jail for , short terms of imprisonment, would it not be better to place him in an inebriate asylum, with a view to his reformation and to keep him away entirely from drink ? -It is a very hard matter to say what is best in a case of that kind ; sometimes the person is interdicted in such a ca.se. I Jiavo known cases where that sttems to be helpful. But as regards the population .scattei'ed throughout the countiy, this is a dilKcul*^ matter. 34184. It has been stated in evidence before this Connnission that sometimes there ai'e men who do little else than go to the police court and from the police court to the jail aiul round again. Have you knoAn cases of that kind ? -I have not known cases of that kind. Men have told nie that when they were interdicted they could obtain liquor whenever they wanted it ; at least one man has told me that. B>/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : 34185. Speaking about the license system, and the possibility that you may under some circumstances favour it : is it a fact that you favour it because of the prohibition in the licenst! system rather than the permission that the license law gives any one to sell ?— I suppose it is scarcely neces.sary to answer that question after what I have said. Certainly it can only be that feature of the law wliicl^^ould lead me to look upon it with favour. .■?418(). Ts it a fact that there are certain prohibitive provisions in the license law, and is it that cii-cumstance which would induce you, in the event of not getting prohibi- tion, to favour a license law, namely the amount of prohibition contained in it?— Yes; if I favoured it at all, it would certainly b(^ from that stand])oint. 34187. You lived in New Brunswick at one time? — Yes. 341S8. In St. John, I believe ] In (Queen's County. 34180. What law was in operation there,' -The Scott Act lattei'ly. Before that time, there was pi'ohibition under the old law, uniler the Magistrates I believe. For the last fifty odd years ther(> has been practically )«rohil)ition. 3411)0. You mean the people refused to grant licenses? — Yes. 341'.U. How did it alFect the county, beneficially or otherwise? — Beneficially. 341!)!.'. Ts Queen's County strong for pi-ohibition ?-- Yes, in regai'd to any intoxicants being used there. In travelling in steamboats, I noticed the ditl'ei-ence. The river boats generally had a bar. The steamboats in our county were not allowed a bai- ; tliere was no attem])t to vend li<|Uor there in the sunnner. 341!>3. Then the Scott Act, so far as Queen's County is concerned, works well ? — It works very succc^ssfully. I never saw a man drunk until I was seventeen years old. Rev. W. H. Jenkix.s. -~-^ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 34194. Then you lived iutlie rural di- triots ?— Yes. 34195. Of course, tliere is no drink there? — No. 34196. And no sale?— No. 34197. You have lived only two years in Manitoba, and T understand you liavc never been in the Territories? — Not particulai'ly. I have been as far as Moosoniiu on the train, and I lieard some comments from people who hiul l)een further on the lino; but I saw notiiing myself. Tn Cumberland there were some attempts made to sell. We the temperance people, would let them know that sale would not be allowed, and we had no ditliculty in putting down the sale. 34198. Have you observed whether there is considerable temperance sentiment here? — Yes; while there seems to be a great deal of drinking among young men, the community is strongly in favour of prohibition. In passing through the streets in the evenings you will see that the bar-rooms are open to the street, and you will see crowds, especially of young men. 34199. This is a country of j'oung men, I believe? — Yes. 34200. Do you think the sentiment in favf>ur of general prohibition is growing? — Y'es, although I am not in a position to fully answer that (juestion. The ditlerent Protestant churches have a very strong hold on the piovinceandall those denominations arc very pronounced in their opinions, with the exception of the Episcopal Church, and I am not in a ])osition to know anything in regard to it, although I know that some of its leading members are strongly in favour of temperance. By Judge McDonald ; 34201. I am a member of the Episcopal Church, and T hope in using the term, '• some of its leading meml)ers are in favoui' of temperance,'' you did not mean to say that the Church of England as a whole is not in favour of temperance. Do you not mean in favour of prohi))ition ? — Tt was on account of my not knowing the views of the otiier part. 34202. It is not a fact that the term that you meant to use was ]irohii>ition ; or are prohibition and temperance with you interchangeabli! terms? — I will put the word prohibition there. I did it in my own mind when I sj)oke. 1 do not wish to make reilcctions on othei- connnunions in regard to whicli I am not in a position to say who might and who might not be in favour f)f prohibition. I would be very soriy to speak in regard to that mattei- : but when speaking as I do now, I want to speak gravely. III ALFRED S. B0IS8EAU, of Brandon, hotel-keeper, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Judge MrDonaJd : .'54203. How long have you resided in ^Manitoba ? — Tw(>lve years. 34204. How long have you lived in I'randon? — Ten years. 34205. 'Where did you five before?— At ()tt',wa. 34206. When you came first to .Manitoba where did you stop? — At Wi.inipcg 34207. Did you go to Winnipeg from Ottawa? — Yes. 34208. Did you keep a hotel in Winnipeg?- No, l)ut I was in ■''. Hotel business. 34209. "Were you employed in the same business in Ottawa? — Yes. .'51210. And in Brandon you are a'so in the hotel business ?"A''es. 34211. Take the lirstquestion as tothe habits of the people here : ha\!' yoM noticed any change in the social habits of the people of the city so far as regards drinking intoxieiiting licjuors as a beverage? — They have greatly improvecl since I came here. The habit;, art' certaiidy better than when I came here tirst. 34212. \^ou have li\ed under the Manitoba License Act I suppose? Yes. 34213. AN'hat 's the auiount of fee vou have to pay?- The fee is altogether iibout .?250 a year. 215 i:^ I- -i! "■^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba. ■'<4214. I[ave tlu'ru Itei'U tVoiii tiino to time aiiieadinoiits iiiiuli- in the Ai't since you came hero? — F l)eli«n'i^ it lias Im'cii anieiidt'd several times since I have hc'ii in tlie business. 342ir). F[av(' you l)een ahlt; to ohserve tb-; provisions of the Act ?- Yes. .■!42l<>. Ila\(i vou reason to l)eli(>ve tliat there is any illicit sale in IJrandon? — T believe there is not. ."54217. .So far as you are able to judye, and from your experiences of liiiuors fur- uishcfl by iiotels and licensed places, are they of pure character or adulterated?—! believe thoy are pure. .'5421f<. r suppose you do not import any lii|unrs from Europe yourself? — No; T take li(]Uors in l)ond here, out of the ori<,'inal packa^'es from the old country. .■U21l>. l>o you j^et any orij^inal old countiy jiackages (--I i^ettheni from the whole- sale (h'alers in XN'innipej,' and IJrandon. .'14220. I'^'om your experience, do you favour the use of light wines and beers in ])ref(M'iMict! to the heavier liipiois, and do you encouraji'e the use of them? --Of coui'se if one or the other class has to be done away with, certainly li,i,'iit wines and iieers ai'(> better for the people, if they will only come down to them. -■{4221. Have you seen anything of the operation of a prohibitoiy law ? -No. •54222. J)o you consider such a law to be practicable and cajiable of enforcement ? — 1 do not, conscientiously sjieaking. •■t422.'{. ila\'e you considered the question of high license : do you think it would bo adxantageous to increase the amount paid for license and mak(> the numbei' of places wiiere licpior is sold vei'y small ? — Yes, and I suppose it could be practically enforced. .■(4224. And action should be taken to see that no illicit sale is taking place? Yes. •'11220. In case of the passage of a genei'al prohibitory law, do yo 1 think that brewers and distillers should be remunerated for their })lant which would bo I'endered useless? Decidedly. ■'5422(1. As an hotel-keeper, can you tell the Commission how the adoption of a prohibitory law would att'ect your business? It is stated that hotel men are unable to fui-nish theii' guests with meals, unless they have license to sell licpior ; and on the other hand, it is contende(l that this is not a good system, that each jierson siiould j)ay a j)roper amount for ids meal, and they in .some cases get it for much less than it is worth. Speaking as a hotel-keeper, what is your view of this matter? I woidd I'ertainly say that the provision department docs not pay and you havet ) de[)end on the other depart- ment, and it is necessary to have that ilepai'tment in order to keep up a good house. If you could get higher prices, of course that would be a dill'erent ipiestion. 1 may say, however, that in my experience the piovision and boarding department is, as a rule, run at a loss. .'54227. What are the points of ditliculty about it? 1 do not think the people \\ish to pay proper prices. .T422iS. Ts it a (|uestion of not knowing how many to provide for? Xo. .'54220. Knowing the supplies ie(|uired and knowing how many to provide foi' anil ha\ ing {)i'ocuivd the su{)plies, do you not charge enough ? -It is all right about charging, but the diHiculty is to get the price. Y'^ou cannot obtain over a certain jii'ice, and it must be the populai' pi-ice. .'542;50. Tlien the pricf, is not sullicient to enable you to run the house? Quite .so, taking the boarding department, the rent and the othei' expenst's. You must have prolitfrom some department of the business, and the hotel-keeper obtains it from the bar. By Jier. Dr. McLeod : .342.'?!. Do you mean that people who do not go to the bar do not p.-iy for what they get? I certaiidy do. .'542.'52. Then why do you not make them pay for their meals? - They will not pay for them. 34233. Thei'c is, \ suppose, a certain price o\ er which the people will not go ?^It is the po|)ular sentiment, T suppose. 342.'54. Do you refer tti total abstainers? — Where yiiu would get one to pay ninety- nine would linnt themselves, AiiKRKi) S. Bois.s1';au. lie il3 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 f -Yos. -Till' rt'CL-ii)!,- ut arc I In' ill tl K'V .'- ^'oll li('\(' so. Urandoii ? — -As Icilicr iiS ;U:.'.'ii"). Tfikiiii,' total at>staiiu'i's wlio aic j)ati'niis of your Imlcl : out of a certain iiuiiiIkt of <,'ucsts tlioi'c^ will ho a i)io|ioi'tiori wliodonot patidiii/.c tiic liar.' I am takini^ iliat (lc])artinciit as afjainst the other (lepaitineiits. :i4L'.'5<). Do y(jii keep separate accounts tor them? — Certainly. .'U'_';{7. Then you know what are the receipts and expenses of thi' hotel pi'oper, and what are the receipts and e.xpi'nses of the bar pi'opcr / -Yes. .'{1"_';58. And you know tiuit the hotel propel' does not pay of itself 3tl!."i!). And what part of the prolits are ohtainoil from the har ? the har ^'o to helj) to make up the difVei'cnce. .■{■Jl'IO. Are there no liotels without l)ars that pay : what iiotcN cannot show me a single one. .■J42U. Y'ou have stated that tiiere is no illicit sale in IJrandon .' 34242. J)o you think the licensees sell after hours and on Sunday .\o. 1 do not. •■il24."{. Do you helicNc that prohihition would not he j>ractical)le .' li(|Uor is manufactured, it cannot he prohihited. •■il24L The prohihition ipiestion means the pi'ohihition of tlunnanufact ure. importa- tion and .sale of li(|uor ? --You cannot legislate in favour of one-half of the peojjle aiid against the other half. Such a thing is against the freedom of man. My imj)ression is that you cannot legislate as to what we shall do. I helit'\e in moral suasion. \ think it would do more good foi' temperance i)eople to establish such an institution as that at Dwight than all th(> talk of the temperance societies. .■5424"). Then, you think it is well to keep a business established to produce men to :.'o to an institution like the Dwight Institu'/iOa? — It is not necessary that people should do so. If people make themselves drunkards, there should he places to which they could be sent. .■5424(1. 8upj)osing the .Maiutolia Legislature next session should enact a prohibitory law, would it be wrong ?— No, for they liav(> a perfect right to legislate a wrong. 34247. And you do not consider that it would be wrong! — It would bean injustice to some people. I do not thiidv the plebiscite was .1 fair vote of the people. Why I say so, is because I have heard iiundreds say that they would not vote as they did if another vote was taken. 3424<^. There was a majority of 12,000 given in favour of prohibition? — if that \ote were taken again, the result would be different; a great many did not understand what they were voting for. .■54249. Suppose the majority of the people desire the ieinnse system, do you think it is right to establish a license system against their will ? If a prrhil)itory A<'t were j)assed by the Legislature, it would be supposed to be all right, but I do not iliink that such an Act could be enforced. •■i42.")0. Why not, if the whole of the people desired such a law ; would not the people obey it? — They would not. ,.t i ht The Connnission adjourned, to meet at Kegina, N. W. T. 217 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 MINUTKS OF EVIDKXrC. NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES. JJKdINA, ()ctol)er ;nst, 1M'J2, Tlie Hoyal Coniinission on tlic Litiuor Tnitlic met liero this day. Present : Judge McDonald. Rev. Dh. McLeod. U r Juu(iE McDonald, in openln;,' the proeee(linij;s, said : Tluci! nf tlic C;nni"iis- sioners are unable to 1)6 present. Sir Joseph Hickson is unavoidably detained in Montreal; ^^fr. (tigault, Deputy Minister of Agriculture for the Province of Quebec, is also detained by his departmental and other duties ; aii T have been in Regina. .")4l'.").">. You came from Ontario, T suppose, in early days. Fi'nm what county ? — Fmm Oxford. •■!l2r)4. In that county in those days, I suppose, a license law was in force? — Yes. •'i42o5. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law except in the North-west 'territories ? — No. ."H'-'ilG. When you first came to the North-west Teriitories, what system respecting the sale of liiiuors was in force? — Limited prohibition. We had limited prohibition up to (|uite a recent date. ■'U2-")7. Was limited prohibition the permit .system ? Was that system in force when you first came here? — W^s. ■'U^ns. Wei'e p»'rmits granted by His Honour the Lieutenant-Ooxcrnor ? - Yes. •'ifL'.")9. So far as your experience goes, how did you find that system work I — I thought it worked very well. 819 I, V J I ',i Li(i\ioi' TiJinic — Noirh-wt'st 'IVrritorics. .Tf200. |>i(l ymi m'i' iniifli (Iriiiikt'imcss ,' - Nii. I uuylit to fx|iliiiii tu tlif (^llnnlission that, cxi'i-iiiiri;,' tlii' my ollicial (liilicM \ \\ii\i' iiid xcry litll<' t'.\|K'iii'nce and luivo Ix'en viTV little nvi'i- tin- Ti'iTitnrit's, luul I lia\f nnt had the iipportiiiiity tliat sitnir others haM- liad of iioticiri;j thnst- iiiatti-i's. ' .'It'.'til, No diiulit yuii have liad fX|M'ri('ii('<' ot' till' iirai'liial workiiv^ of the system I — To explain niyselt' inoic i-leaily, I slioidd perhaps stale thai I have liardly heeii into a hotel, I'estaniant oi' saloon, and know nothini;' of I heif working,'. l''oi' a few weeks I Ixtunled at a hotel here, when there was no other plaee to j,'o to ; l»nl previous to \f tl'fJ'J. ^'cll| had, then, to i^i'l aeeoniiriodation wiiere yoii <'ou!d .' — Yes, generally on tlie prairies in trawllnii;. .■l4l!t'iM. |)id parties in I hose da\ s lain;; li(|iior ficmi the ohlei' I'l-ovinces here '/ Very little. .'U'-'ttl. I suppose they ^ot licpior in mider the jierrnit system .' Yes, jfeiierally from Winnipeif. .') I ■_'•'>•">. Do yoii know anythin;,' as to how tin- law worked near the lioundaiy line Ix'tween the I'nited Stat. 's and Canada.' I have had very little exjierience. with the exception of travelling on the railway. I know vi'ry little alxail the south-west portion of the country, and it W(Mild lie hotter for me t<» explain what part of the country I do know, and that eouiiti'y we take in is from the present line of the Canadian I'ai'itie l{ailway, .'KJU miles west u]i to Ivlmoiiton, taking across the country. 1 know nothing of the Calgary country. .'H^t'iti. Have you studied ihi' i|iiestion of prohihiflon '.' A'eiy little. ;542(i7. Have you cousidcred the (|uestion whether in case of the enactment of a genei-al prohil)itory law, it would he just anil proper to grant compensation to lirewers and distillers for loss of plant, etc. '. — No, 1 have not. • ilL't, - |>() vdu consider yourself as (|ualilied to gi\e an opinion on that matter? — No; 1 have not had an opportunity to inform myself. 34209. Taking your experience of the system under permits down to when the |"re.sent system came into force, have you found any change in the liahits of the peo[ile .' -There has not heen any time to observe any change during the past few months. •">4l'7 increased. ;54"27i iiifnt. in nini'c tliati ten, or at till' ciulsjilc, twenty ciiscs. .■Ul'.*'tJ. W'a^ that dinin^,' tin' wlutlcut' yuur jiidicia fX|iriiciKM' ,' \'(-i ; and none ot' tliose ciiscH wen- of a serious natiirc. .'U'Jf*!. Yoti tliiiik tlio time lias not 1 n sullicicnl to di'tfi-ii inr, or at It-ast for yon todt'ti-i'Miiii)' as to the rrsidls of tlic wm kini; of t he present liei^ise law, as eiini|iare(l with tlie |iioliil)ilory law in the 'I'ei lilories .' When 1 say so, yo,, must renienilx'i' that not, a sini{le ease has eonie under my not iee of a criminal nal urc in which liijuor has formed an element. .■542>i"J. I wasahout to su!,'j,'t'st that your Honour should n'wf a hricf outline of the |iro\isions of the lio-nse law .' I lui\e nol read it. Three of the menilHan during the later years.' — Yes. .■U'J88. So they have really occurred since lHS(i or 1H87 ? I think so. Of course, if 1 were as! ,(l to give a detitiite answer, 1 might furnish the Cummission with more ace u rat data JJi/ Jnd Ass"ml)ly held hut on eeting? — Yes, on!}' one session ; at lea.st one particular session was ahoriise as far as legislation was concerned. ;Ul".IU. That is since the new legislative system came into force? "S'es. ;542'.U. And the Legislature is made up of representatives of the people all over the country '. — Yes. ."iilMfJ. The l^'gislature at its first meeting, then, changed the law from the old sys- tem and brought in the license law? — Yes. .{421)3. Which license law is now in operation ? — Yes. JJi/ K>'v. Dr. MiLood: •'i42!l4. Do you recollect whether the ipiestion of proliihition oi' license law was the chief issue at that election? — I would not take it upon myself to answer deliniiely that iiuestion. 221 s liiquor Traffic — North-west Territories. - • HAYTEH i{ '-ET), of liegina, Tnd an A<;;ent for Manitoba, Keewatin and the Nortl:-\\ 'st TfiTitorit^s, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: — Jiij Jiiil of li([uoi' brought into the country, tended to lessen tlie (juan- tity smuguled into the country ?—^'aturally so. 3430'.). Do you know anything it' the i|uality of the licpioi' snmggled into the coun- try'l- — It was \ery bad ; the liiiuoi' smuggled in from the Uidted States was {)articularly bad. The liquor got from ihitisli Cc.lu .il)ia w'as the same kind of liquor that you would get at the present time. 34310. Was it of the ordinar\- class used in the cou'.ti'v fvom which it was bi'ought 1 —Yes. 3431 1. Was the class brought in by peimits better ihan the class smuggled in from the United States?— Yes. 343rj. ^\'as it a siuular class of liipior to that brougiit in under the licensi' law? — It is bt ;ter now. 34313. Why? — The liiiuor binught in under the license law is better than that which was smuggled in from the United States. ;>4314. Ha\e you noticed, since you came into the couiiti'v, whether there has been a change in thi' social customs of the people in regard to the use c)f into.xicating be\er- ages / — So far as my experience goes, I think in sonit> cases people drink, less, and in other cases moT-e. 3431"). Have you noticed whether the present law, since it has come into force, has been satisfactory or otherwise, I refer to the license system? — Tn a measure it has been satisfactory. 1 think if it were strictly enforced, it would be satisfactory. 343|(). Have you studied the qut.ition of prohibition? — To a very minor extent. 34317. Judging from the experience yu li:'.ve had of it in the North-west Terri- tories, do you think a g.-ueral prohibitory law for the whole of Canada could be enforced ? — It couki not. Haytkk Rekd. px*r 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'U.'JIS. Takiiifj oui- country as ii whole, extending as it does from tlie Atlantic to the Pacific, with a loiifj; coast line in the Maritime Provinces, and with Prince Edward a'shmd completely surrounded by water, with the gulf of 8t. Lawrence ru'ning up into Quebec, and with the long boundary line of the United States, and thou the coast line of liritish Columbia i)n the Pacific, do.you believe it would lie possible to enforce a gtMiera' pro- hibitory law and jirevent smuggling of liquor /—No ; 1 am certain it could not lie done, .■U.'U'J. Have you considered the ([uestioii of granting compensation to brewers aiul distillers in case of the enactraont of a gencal [irohibitorv law? — I have not. 'M'.V20. As a matter of ji.stice, should they receive compensation for their property and plant in case of the euiutmcnt of such a law? 1 think so. ."it.'i^l. Do you know if there have been cases of illicit distilling in She Territories? — There have been several cases. JJy Rev. Dr. McLmd : 'M'.i2'2. Are the Indians under your charge particularly affected b\' drink, and have they been particularly affected by liquor brought into the country / — Yes. We recently have had more trouble than befori.^ 34;i:i.S. You have taken extra p.'ecautions under the license system, I suppose I— -Yes. .'i-i;5J4. Do you find that when the Indians are in the vicinity of ilrink, or when drink is introduced into their midst, they are more affected by it than are whites ? — They have a stronger desire for licpior. They are jiai'ticularly weak undei- such a tempta- tion. Y'ou may temj)t an Indiiin in any other way and he may resist, but if you oti'er iiim liquor he gives way immediately. .■U."!l!o. So you are obliged to keej) liquor away from tlu? Fiidians? — Yes. ."U.'iL'O. 1 ju'lge you found it more difficult under the permit system than under che present license law? — Scarcely so, because there was not as nuich li(|Uor in the count rv, and the working classes did not get as nmch li(|Uur as the • do now. The )»eople who come more in contact with tlit; Indians did ajt get as luuch liquor as they do now. .■U;527. Did you tinil that prohiliition was fairly enforced under the old system? — [t was in the first years, but not in the later years at all. .'U.'L'.S. What was tiie reason "f the laxity? — It rested with tlie people in the main ; it was because the people, Ijjw abiding in eveiy other particulai', \\()uld not see that the law was enforced. ."U.'i'JU. Are we to untlerstand that the people who came iii earlier years were anxious to see the bvw enforceci, but that those who came in later years were indifferent in legard to it, anlied by 2.") in 1890 and the population inci'eased two and a half times '?- -Yes. 34344. The Commissioners are desii'ous of ascertaining the rea.son why, if per- mits were originally granted for medical and domestic purposes, such a mai'ked increase occurred in the (juantity of li(iuors permitted to be brought into the country? — I suppose it was owing to the fact that the Governor, who had power to issue the [)erinits, thought it better to issue jiermits leather than see so much suuiggling ; I suppose he was actuated by that motive. 34345-4(5. You think snniggling increased as permits were limited ? — I think so ; I know it decreased as 'permits were increased. ;}4347. Is that accord' ng to otHcial figures?- -I do not mean ti) say in the same ratio. 34348. Are ilicre otlicial figures to show that smuggling decreased as permits were increa.sed ; or is that a fact we have to assume ? — 1 do not know that there are figures to show it. 34349. Do you know whether those permits were for personal use or for .sale ?— They were su|)pos('i'. ti . V . simply foi- domestic use, not for sale ; I now refer to li(juors beyond the four jjcr cfeiit beer. / .34.350. That arrangement came into force, 1 believe, in 1889? — Yes, about then. 34351. Then the permits were for ([uantities that might be sold? — -Yes. 34.35"2. Do you ivgard tliat as carrying out the law in its entirety and accoi'ding to its sjiirit, or was that a very loose interpretation of the law and lax administration of it ? —I fear that I cannot answer that (piestion, because 1 favour the provisions of tlie law in that regaril. 34353. As Indian Commissioner, however, you are clear that you liave had Ut take extra precautions to prevent the Indians getting liquor, on account of the fact that there is now licensed sale throughout the Territories? — Yes, simply on account of the greater quantity of li(|uor coming into the country, and thereby it gets into the hands of the Indians. Hayteu Rekd. 224 S<1 Its were figures Isale ?— linaors about Uing to |u of i1 '■ llie law Ito take It tlu'i-e Igrcatt'i' lot" the 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 By Judge McDonald : 'MMi)i. Have you any reason to lielieve tliat tlie person who issued the permits wiis governed by the wislies of tiie people /--He lui^ht have be»!n, and he must iuive been, or he would not have issued them. 34355. When legislative government became possil)le it carried out the wishes of the people by enacting a license law? — I think so. Jiy Rer. Dr. AIcLeod: 34."i5G. How would the issuer of permits know the wishes of the people, — simply by applications being made to him for permits >. That would be the only means of judging. By Jad(f<' McD< "< 'd : .'{4357. Was it noticeable undei' the old system that persons would get permits, and would obtaiti large (piantities »f litjuor, the litpior being consumed within a very short space of time by the people ? — Yes. .■{4:{58. Would there ho bouts of di'inking at the time in different sections of the country ? — Yes. sometimes. /ly liev. Dr. Mr hod: .'(4359. Have you obsi-rved whether there has been less drinking since the inaugura- tion of the present license law than there was previously, or more? — 1 think that certain classe." of the people who were unable to get liipior under permit .are able to get it freely now, T do not think tiiey vdrink as nmch now as fonnerly : but t^o.se who were denied the privilege of getting it readily before, drink more now. .'U.SfiO. Ho taking the wiiole consumption, thei-e is no less drinking than before, taking the several classes together ? -I do not know. .'{4301. Sjieaking about the inci'eased issue of peiniits, are you aware whether there were any public n\eetings held througimut the Territories demanding larger liberty? — hi what directiim ? ;>4.'Ui2. In regard to tin? introduction of and the consumption of li(|uor ; in regard to a more lil)eral interpretation of the iirohibitory law ? No, 1 cannot recall to miiul any such meeting. 34363. Meetings protesting against the laxity in the administration of the permit system ? No ; except that tlu^ people wei'e demanding through the press a more rigid I'ufoi'cement of the prohibitory law. I heard a desire foi' a more reliable law. .'(4.304. Do you know vhether the people asked to have a plebiscite on this cccasion, a yea or nay vote as between pi-ohibition and license? — I have heard it spoken of. but I do not think any formal request was nuide in any way. 343()5. And the charge made that the law was not fairly cari'ie law was passed. Did you understand at the last election, when you were elected, that throughout the jirovince the issue was between license and prohibition : was that the chief issue.' No, I do not think it was. 34.3'.>i!. Do you know wliedier there was any urgent attenqtt made ;ind any formal request made to have a plebiscite on that t)ccasion I -No : I do not think that there was any formal re(jU(^st made. There was some talk of it; oik; or two of tin! candidates said they were bound in favour of a plebiscite. .31.3il.'!. T mean previous to that. I have before me a repcu't of the North west Territory .Mliance meeting held in Novend)er, 1888. I notice that ii memorial was Daniicl Mowat. 8S0 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 tky ^yas lliUl ■•*'!l!^ Ijiliu^ of Litity ot" [iH'iisi' in hct'nri'. led, thiit that tlu' f».)nnal ipcp was jididati's Ifthwost riiil was drafted, which I preaurae was presentetl to the Executive Committee or to the Dominion Government by the Executive of the Alliance ; and one of the sections says : — "Therefore, we, yovu' ineiiiorialistM, would em nest ly pray tlmt Your Excellency in Cmmcil iniiy see fit to direct that on the same e taken as hetweeii license for the sale of intoxicating li(|Uors and the prohibition of the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicants, except for nieilicinal, scientitii^ and sacra- mental ijurposes ; and wu most strongly protest against the result of any other than a direct vote upon tliis suhjeut being taken as linal and decisive. ' .■54;{94. Do you consider that that represents the feeling of the people throuji;hout the whole Pi-ovince? — 1 do not. 1 think it just came from Kegina. .■?4li9u. I notice in an extract from a newsj)apt!r of November IG, 1SS8, that at a public meotinj;; held in Kejjina, at the Court house, the North-west Lejjislature was asked to submit the mattei' of prohibition ver-i' license to the people at the earliest possible date, and the Dominion (jovernment wa. t commended to jn'ovide .such le;,dslation by the succeedinji; session as would carr\ into ett'ect the wishes of the people as expressed by such vote. Was that a public meeting of the citizens of Regina? — I liave no recol- lection of that meeting being held, nor was T present. .■54.'J!)6. Then I see a memorial was presented to Governor Royal along the same line, and this memorial starts out with ; — " We your memorialists would hereby most respectfully pray that permits to sell be discontinued until the action be definitely settled by the voice of the people, and your petitioners will, as in duty bound, for ever pray." — I have no recollection of those meetings. 34.'?97. I would not expect that you would be at a public meeting of this kind, fuithering prohibition 'I — Quite so. By Jndye, McDonald : .■}4."J98. You did not know of any such meeting as that being held? The announce- ment reads to this effect : " A meeting of those interested in fui'thering the cause of prohibition will be held on Tuesday, at 10 o'clock." Was that the best hour to obtain a large atttindance of citizens 1 Is it not a fact that large gatherings are generally held in the evening ? — Yes. £1/ Ktw. Dr. McLeinl : .'U.'599. Was there any feeling among the people, whether few or many, much or little, or in any way, in favour of having a plebiscite? I do not ask if four-fifths, or nine-tenths, or one-ninth, or one-tenth of the people felt ,so ; but as a whole were they in favour of a plebiscite, and did they not memorialize the (Jovernor and the Dominion Government to provide for taking a pl(d)iscite hi're ? Do you know whether there was any popular feeling in favour of a plebiscite? — I have an indistinct recollection of sign- ing some ])etition, but whether it w;is for a plebiscite or on other lines of t(>nipei'anct> I cannot say ; 1 forget now. ■14400. There was a petition circulated which obtained •_', I4.'i signi'.tuics of electors in a very short time ? — Yes. •■54401. I understood you to say that you are interested as an actiNc ]),irticipant in llii" last camjiaign, and that, taking the North west Territoi'ies throughout, the chief (juestioii before tiie elect(]rs was not one , as bet ween license and prohibition '. I think not. :i nO'2. That is to say, that the nienibers were not sent to the Legislature to do so :»ii(l so i — No. .'MIO.S. I tliiidi you said also that some membei's had got souk- instructions during the campaign in regard to that subject ? Some did. ")II04. Were you, as an el(>ctor, favoural)le to a plebiseite ?— I was, and I \()ted t'ui' it. .illO-"). Do you think tbe experienc-e, although only for a short time at Hegiiia, of hiaing the Territories generally under license, has demonstrated that license is i)etterl'or the Territories than the old |>rohibition ? I am not prepared to say ; but ))ei-sonally I t'a\uu[' the old system, and 1 would rather ha\e pi'ohibition than license any day. 227 lil — lD.l** w 1; 1 ■' ' ' Liquor Traffic — North-west . Territories. Ill/ Jitih/e McDimald : ;i440l.i. 80 you are t'iiv(>ural)lo to [irite of oui' long sea-coast and vast boundary btstween the l^iited States and Canada ? — I thiid< so. ;i441 1. Do you think this could be done with the force of otticers at present in con- nection with the IJevenue and Cust(jms sei'vice .'1 think fewer olticers would be re(piired. -■{441 '2. I ohsel■^(^ from the paper from which the Rev. Dr. McLeod read, that this Coinention, of which you say you have no recollection, was held undei' the auspices of tlie North-west Prohibitoiy Alliance, and delegates were present from other places, and the committee i-eported that they had waitefl r.jion Lieuteiiant-tjovernor Royal, and the (Jovernor dcu-lared that his action wijuld he chietly grtverned hy th(^ action of the Legis- lature. How did that acti(»n show itself when the Legislature met'! — Legislation was passed in fa\our of a lice nse law. •■S44l;'i. The Legislatur,^ is made ii[(, T suiiposc. of men from all sections of the Ter- ritories ? —Yes. A'// Ri'r. Dr. Mr[,e ROBERT H. GORDON, of Regina, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and Sec- retary to His Honour the Lieutenant-(»overnor, on being duly swoi'ii, dej)osed as follows : I'tjj Jiiihjf MrDiiiKilil : .")44l(). i>o you hold any other olticial position than that of Clerk of the Legislative Asseml)ly and .Secretary ..o His Honoui' the Lieutenant-(!overnor ? - 1 am also Queen's Priutei'. .'54417. Are you Clerk of the House, also '. - Yes. .'i441S. Is there any other clerk? No other; the hills are framed by members mostly. ;i441i). How long have you resided in the North-west Territories? — Since the fall of ISS."). .'i44l20. Ha\e you n'sided all that time in Regina ? Y'es. ;I442I. Did you originally come from one of the other pi'iAinces, or from England l - — I came from England. .'H422. Have you had any experience of prohibition in any other country than the North-west Territoi'ies ? — No. •'U42.'5. -Judging from your experience here, have you found the law well enforced? — r did not lind the pe^'uiit .system well enforced ; I found it impossible to enforce it, in my experience. Damei- iMoW.VT. m 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 3442 t. Yini mean that any system of grantinj; jieiiiiits luiild imt be carried out ? — There was dirticulty in f^rantiiig permits jiuUciously. .■U4l'o. What wi^re the partieular dilliculties in the way ? It was impossihle t'orany person, including the Lieutenant-Go\ernor, whoiiad the wlioh!j)ower of giant ing them, to distinguish as between the different appheants througliout tlie country, those who sliould receive permits, and others who should not. .'5442(1. Did ajiplicat ions come by mail? Nearly always. The (ioxeinor tried to get the applicants reconnnen enforc(> jii'ohiliition in Canada as a whole? -I do not think so, but my experience does not extend tieyond the North-west Territories, .■544.T4. But you have had changes of conilition in the Territories? — Yes. 344.'}.'), Then the Legi.slative Assembly at its first meeting after it was newly con- stituted, legislated on this (piestion ?- -The first Assembly was in 1S8S: this was the second one, ;5443G. The second one passed the present license' law ? Yes. .'544.'i7. Have you as a citi/en observed the working of that \n\\ '. ^'cs, us a citi/en of Hegina. .'544:58. How has it worked? — It has woi'ked well ; but 1 might say that its work- ing has not come officially before me. .'i44.'W. Taking your experience of the working of prohibition and license, which is ]ireferable ? — As a citizen, T think the licen.se law. .'54440. Do you think it is more practicable to enforce a license law ? I think so. ;54441. In case of the passage of a prohibitory law for Canada, a law jiroliibiting the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating li(|i!ors for bexcragc purposes, would you deem it right that the brewers and distillers should receive conqii-n.salion for plant and property which would be rendei'ed useless? 1 have not considered that part of the •luestion. but it seems rciisonable that they should be remunerated to some extent at all events, ■')4442, What in your \iew is the (^tl'ect on a comnuuiity of maintaining a law on the statute-book that is llagrantly and persistently violateil ; is the eil'ect t'nr good or evil "u the public conscience? 1 think the effect is evil. Any law that is persi.stently \iiil.ited iinist have that tendency. .'i444.'5. Have you noticed whether there has been any change in the social customs lit' the jieople in regaril to the tse of intoxicating liipiors as be\-erages, since you came into the country ; or do you think the social customs continue as they were ? I mean, do people use less liquor at the table in a social way? — ^I have not noticed such change. I think since the license law has come into force, li(|Uor is used more fit ely. !i ■!!■ . i :|'^ ^ Liquor Traffic — North-west Territoi-iea By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 34444. Can you tell the Coimnissioiiers on wlmt conditions tlie permits were granted ; what was the standiiiji condition on which a permit would lie issued ? — Tt was a matter lying entirely within the discretion of the Lieutenant-Governor. He issued permits to any rcspcctahle parties for medical or domestic use, .■{444."). Was he supposed to htave knowledge of the persons who nuide applicatifms and to whom he granted permits, and had he to determine fnjm that knowledge whether he should grant the application or not? — If His Honour had no personal knowledge of the Jiai'ty, he obtained a recommendation. .'54440. Was a recomtnendation always necessary to accompany jiennits? — I think so, unless the individual happened to Im; known jiersonally to the Governor. .'54447. Did you find that the applications for pei'inits were steadily increasing? — Yes, steadily. .'U44S. Were you the otHcer who issued them by direction of His Honour? — The Governor signed them, and 1 countersigned them. .'54449. Then you issued them under his direction ? — Yes. ;}44:")0. How long was a jiermit supposed to last, simply until it was filled ? — Do you mean how long a person might have liquor in his possession? — The time was unlimited. :544.')1. What was the ([uantity for which permits were granted /- -Two gallons was the usual tjuantity, and then to resjK'ctable parties who were known to the Governor the (|uantity inci'eased up to five gallons, and I have known His Honour give even large quantities. 344.")2. Then the quantity was at the (Jovei'iiors discretion ? — Yes. .■544r)."{. Was thei'c no limit by law? — None whatever. 34454. Suppose a man had a permit foi' five gallon.s, and six months after oi' twelve months after it was found that he had in his possession four gallons, would it be assumed that that was part of the original permit, or could he get othei' five gallons under the same old permit? — He could not get a second quantity on the same pernut, because the permit would be cancelled by the police. 344-')."). Did the permit always accompany the liquor? — Yes ; the Express Companies wtiuld not bring in li(|Uor t'xccpt under jiermit. WW-hui. Was not licjuoi- brought in under disguise ? — I think it was smuggled in. 344o(). The permit being obtained, the liquoi' was purchased under it, say in Winnipeg, and it was packt^l in candle or soap boxes and the pernut was inclosed. So if the li(pior was discovered, the permit would jirotect it, and if not, the permit would be preserved, and the person could get another lot under the same permit. Was that not the case ? — T have heard of it. 34457. Did such cases ever come under your obsei'vation to any extent? — I have heard of such casesof goods being opened by the police and the peimits being found there. 344r)8. They would cover the liquors, [ suppose? — Yes ; but it was manifest what was the intention of having the permits there. 344.^)9. T think the Commissioners have heard, either at Winnipeg or Brandon, this, that a man was charged with selling liciuoi', that when an examination of his premises was made, the li(pior found thei'e was covered by a peiunit that was nailed against the wall 1 — No man had a permit to sell li(|uor except four per cent beer. 34460. Do you know, as a fact, that there was sale of li([Uor? — Yes. 344()l. Sal(!s of liquoi' brought in by permit ? — Yes, I believe so. .■544Gl'. Did thrmits to sell. •'544C(). Do you know whetlier tlierc^ was an increase or decrease in the (juantitv of wliisky and sj)irits consumed under the four per cent beer jilan '! — It (h-creased at first, and it was witli a view to decreasing tiie use of spirits that four pei' cent l)eer was was introduced by tlie Governor. .'5iK)7. I recollect it was put forth at the time as a reason why the intrcMJuction of beer should be more general, that it would reduce the consumption of spirits 'I That was His Honour's I'cason. .'U-itiH. Did it have that effect ? — At first, it did, but afterwards the quantity of s])iiits came uj) to nearly what it had been before. ;U4f)!). T notice in the return to which I have referred, that the sales in \f. — ^Yes, some one he knew or knew of. ."54472. The inci'ea.se of li(|Uor permits .seems to have been very rapid, .so nnich .so that in 1890, \i}'),{uO gallons came in ; but prior to the four per cent there wei'c in 1SS(>, •J0,000 gallons : ]S87, 21,000 ; ISSS, 56,000. How do you account for the jump from ■J1,000 gallons in 18S7, to .IG.OOO in ISHHT -Did not the population increase very nuich 1 .■U47-i. Not at that rate. — What did you say the (juantitv was in 1888 1 ••54474. In 1887 it was 21.000 and in '1888, .')(),000 gallons ? T took particular notice that very much more licpior did not come in, because in IS87, there was a very large (piantity smuggled in, and perhaps in 1888, some came in illegally oi- (>lse was smuggled. .■5447-). Have you reason to believe that there was smuggling, or is that a supjjosi- tion ? — I have no accurate knowledge in regarrl to it. .■{447(). While there were 56,000 gallons in 1888, the ipiantity nuide a leap to I ."11,000 in 1S81). Then, of course, the four per cent was added, making an increase of only 2,000 gallons between that and the next year, which is possibly explained by the fact that the supply had reached its niaxinmm, and perhaps caught up with the con- sumption of the peojile ? — -Indeed. •")4477. Have you observed with great care the working of the license law ? - 1 have not. .'54478. Do you know whether its pro\isions are enforced ?- 1 have not been able to form an opinion. .'54479. I thought pei'haps you had done so, as you thought the law worked fairly well in llegina? — That is so far as ray observation goes in regai'd to the town. ■'54480. Do you consider that the licensees do not sell after prohibited hours and on Sundays 1-4 have no pers(»nal knowledge. ■'54481. You are not able to .say? — No. :54482. You have .said that the old .system was not very practicable. Have you t'oiined an opinion as to whether the fault was in the prohibition itself or in thciadminis- 1 rat ion of the permit system? — I think the trouble was in trying to effect limited IMidiibition. 281 r ■* Liquor Trattic — North-west 1'erritoiies. .'M48it. You tliiiik it is iin[M).ssilil(> to eiifnrcc liiiiilcil prnliihition? I tliiiik il is iiii iiii|Missil)ility ; it is a most iuvidioiiK ]>ositiiiii in wliic-h to pliir*' any one. .■MIM4. Wliy do you think t lie ciit'oicciiit'iit of prohibition not juiKtiiahic : pleaMc Htatf briefly your reasons I From uiy expfricncc of tlic working' of tiic jwrniit system, and the sniu<^glin<; tliat has taken j)la«'e in the western part of the country fr to*188(!and 18f<7, proliibition was very well enforced and with very good effects. What arose after that time to make ]irohil>ition less possible of enforcement ? Tim towns incieased in si/e, aMj)art- nicnt of the Interior from yefir to year. .'M489. Ha\e you a coj)y of the report ? Yes. The (Jovernor is liound to make a report every year of th(^ permits issued, and this return has been matle ever since the system has been established. I file statement, ( .\ppen. Have you held an official position ever since you came to Kegina?-— Yes. 34497. What was the first position you held? Assistant Postmaster at Kegina. 34498. What other official position have you held ? -That is all. Then I took charge of the permit system. 34499. Y^ou became Inspector of Licenses when the law was changed .^- — Yes. 34500. In the discharge of your duties in connection with the permit system, did you travel about the Territories ? — No, I just kept to the railway. 34501. Do you not travel about as Inspector? -When there is any occasion to do so, or if there is any difficulty, I take a trip. 34502. Judging from your experience of the working of the permit system and what you have seen as a resident of the North-west Territories, do you believe a pro- hibitory law, a law prohibiting the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liquors for beverage purposes, could be practically enforced? — No, I think it could not. 34503. In what dii'ection did you find evasions of the law when the permit system was in force ; was there any smuggling ? — There was plenty of it. Robert H. Gohdox. 282 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 III. .14504. l)<» you not know in \\ Imt fonnf— In iill slui|ics and wnys. .■il.")0"). We lia\(' lu'jii'd that lii|UV pi rsons who Yes. re(piirements of the license I'ritories .' Yes. ( »f course 1 ■Vre your iluties ^'eiieral tht'ou<{hout the Tc lia\e deputies. .'{4.")lf). l)o you have deputies at dillerent points? Yes, all over. .■?4.")17. Do they receixe instructions to see that the law is enforced? Certainly. • i4")18. Do you make that your own Imsiness ! Yes, to the best of niy ability. Tlicy are appt>inted Coiinuissioners ; but still they are su]iposed to see that the law is carried out. .'U.'jlO. Are they under your direction? They are ; still the Commissioners are supposed to see that the law is carried out. :!l-")20. So far as your experience y-oes, do you think the license law i> \vcll observed? It is fairly well observed. On one occasion, however, at Prince Albert the iiiilf-breeds got liipior and gave it to the Indians. As that matter came under the Mounted Police, we did not tjike hold until lately ; but .seeing the policM- were not intending to (leal with it, we issued instructions to investigate the mattt-r at once and take excry j)ossible step to suppress the e\ il. •'U-*>2I. AVho are the deputy inspectors .' Jos. C. Wigmore and Chester Thoini)son. The Connnissioners have been instructed to carrv out the law in regard to the Indians. That is the only comi>lfiint wehavehafl through the newspapers in regard to Prince .\lbert, •'t4.")L*2. In the event of th" passage of a prohibitory law, a law prohibiting the uiaiiufactiH'e, importation aiui sale of intoxicating li<|Uors for beverage ])urposes, should the brewers and distillers receive remuneration for their plan aiifl machinery which uiMild be rendered useless ! — I think that would be reasonable. Art U-jS."}. I understand that you come from Prince Edw.ard Island ? Yi Til e Scott Jld not be tmtorec d tl lei'e, or, at anv •at. it was verv littl(> enforced. ithc i4.")'-'4. Did you come from Charlottetown ? Yes. ib"):i;"). You kn.»w that the Scott Act was re[iealed, and that the j)resent system pr jhibiti or license I- Th.'v could not carry out the Scott Act; li(| uor was It. g.i roiinii t.j -•iiuigiiled in, and if the people could not get it in any .)ther way they would tilt' l)ack-doors of hotels. I have not been there, however, for thirteen years. • il."i:.'(i. Take the Island with its coast line and the indentations, would you hop.' to 111- alile t.) enforce a prohibitory law in that province, a law to jirevent the impoi-tation anil sale ? I do not think so. ■ )4o27. You think that under the Scott Act people could get all they wished, .-md tliat it was im])ossible to prevent the use of liquor'?— Yes. '>4.')28. I suppose the jjeople got liquor from St. John. Halifax and .Montreal, and of riiurse they could keep it in their cellars and use it themselves and give it away to tliiir friends, but they must not sell or keep it for sale. In case of the enactment of a !iiw that would prevent every man obtaining liquor, would you hope t.i b»' able to cntnice such a law in Prince Edward Island 233 I think it would be impossibU I I i I lit'iud tlxit all the young llllt lllHltT tilt' Scutt Act ill C'liai'liittiMow I Not at No. Li([U(ir T.ianic — Noifli-wost TenirL".I. Wniilil there lie .>iiuiggliiig along tin- loaKt ami luioss tlu' strait^' -tf Nnitlninilict'land .' \vh. /i;/ Rrr. I),: Mrh'«,l: ' ;il">.'t(l. How long is it since voii left I'rinco Ivlwanl Island.' AImhiI T' veais. •■ll').'tl. l)o you know wlicllier there has iiceri an increase in the tein|ierance ur ]iiohiliitioii sentiment during the last do/en years or not .' men on the Island weic taking to drink. .■U">."Il'. Do you (ittribute that to I lie Scott Act! No they could get what tliey wanted. .'ij.'i.'l.'l. l»o VKU know whether the Scutt .\ct is in t'orce the present lime. I know it was a failure. .'U");it. l>o you know whether the present system is a success oi a t'ailuri .HI5;{r). Xiit having liociii tliero for twelve yeiii's, have you made any personal oliscrvations of the working of the Scott Act .' No. .■i|.").Ui. Then what yon are stating is simply hearsay ,' Yes. ;M").i7. You would not care to give it in evidence .' If is I carsay. .".4-");iH. I)iil you say that the license law in the North-west Territories is well observiid ? [ did not say that. I say that so far a.s I know from my personal exper- ience, it is wi'll ohserved, with llu^ e.\ce])tion of one or two places, where it is reported that certain wholesale people arc lireaking the law. Whene\er I hear anything of the kind, I take immediatv steps to stop it. .'Mo.'i'.t. Have there heeii any lii'ensees Inought to Imok for violations of the license law .' Not one. .'Ur)JU. You have taken steps in some cases, I sup|>ose .' No. It was rumoured al one time that a certain hotel and a wholesale dealer were seilinir after hours. We in- structetl the Inspector to warn each that if that occurred, they uuuid certainly he fined and their licenses would l)e cancelled. Since then. I have not heard any complaints. ."U")!!. |)idtlu' Deputy Commissioners intimate that there are any violations of law, except the Prince Albert case to which you have referred.' — Ye.s, in one or two places I have had notice of violations of the law, and T have instructed them to take steps at once. .■MiJlL'. Have you heard nothing since, and is the case at I'rince Albert the only one? — Nothing. ;. Jlave you heard of violations on the Sabbath? — I have not heard of Sabbath v iolations. .■?4.>4(i. How many licenses are issued in Hegina .' I think thei'c are six, four hotel and tv*-o whole-ale. .■U-')47. No restaurant licenses ? — There are no such licenses granted except in a town with a population of .'$,000 people. .■)4")48. What are the hours of closing at hotels?- -From 11 o'clock at night till 7 oVlock in the morning, and on Monday the bar is not allowed to be opened until (J o'clock. .■U")4!l. 1 suppose a wholesale dealer is not permitted to retail at all? -It is what you call a shop license. With a shop license a party can sell one bottle or two reputed pints. e(pial t() one ijuart. '.\\')')Q. Has tliure been any memorial or comjilaint made to yourself or tt)any otticial connected with the license law. That matter comes under the direction or control of the Assembly : but you have taken steps, T believe, to prevent any trouble? — We have taken steps. •■^4r).jl. And you have heard nothing since? -No. '.\\Tm2. I think you said that you did not believe in the practicability of prohibition. Do you believe in the principle of prohibition ? T do in a certain way. Tf liquor would .r.\.Mi:s C. Pope. 234 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ihjur<- a youn^ iiiiin in iiiiy way, it init;lit li<- iMttt'r that lii> should iutt liavc it : liiii I ilo not iH'lit'M' ill ilii'tdtiiij,' to a man wliat hf shall t-at i>v drink. •11 to undt'i'lakc iiy law lu |iiii|iiliit llii'drink ;M.").");i. Th •li I i> M'M you ii*>ii*'\c M wiinjti III' wiMi it inrludin^ th<< nianufactuir, iiii|>iii'tali<>n and Hale '. ^'*'s, it' it cuuld lie wnikcd nut iniirtically. Ml"!.")!. 'Phi'ii yiiu iK'lii'Vt' in thi- princiiilc, thou^fli yuii lhiid< it ciiulil iml In- praiMi- ('ally i>nt'nse, it would lie i,'iv('i» in favour of licen.se. .'{(•"•."iS. It did not iro in favour of license in Manitolia.' I do n, how is it (hat a vote showini,' a majority in favour of pmhilii- iion is not expressive of the will of the people? {''roin my experience, I think the p: pie ill the Territories are in favour of license, :U'iti.">. M'ould you he willing; that a plehiscite should lie taken in these Territories Ml this (luestion ? Y. tic 111, WCIU lie • iiritil. And if that jileliiscite resulted in the majority xcitinj,' in favour cif prohihi- Id you think that verdict meant that the people wanted pi'ohiliition f - I (h it think it would he in favour of prohibit ion. Kov. HrCJH St. QUENTIN CAYI.KY, M. L. A., of Calvary, on lieiiif; cUily ^wiiMi, cleposecl as follows : — - Jiy Jiiflgi' Mi'Dotmhl : •UufiS. I understand you are Premier of the North-west Territories?^! am a Mciiilier of the Assembly here. We have no title of Premier ; I am Clciiiinan of the l'",X('cutive Committee here. •Uri(i(). AN'liat is your profession?—! am a lawyer. ■ U'lfiT. How long liave you resided in the North-west Territories?- -Since 1S,H4. •U'ltiH. Have you always resided at Calgary? — Virtually all the time at Calgary. ■ iiritij). Did you come liere from one of tlie otlier provinces? — T came here from Tciiciiito. 34ri70. Have vouseen tlie workiii" of a imihibitorx- law anvwhere else than in the >iii'th-west Territories ? — Yes. •5 1.")?!. From what you have seen since you came here of the working of the system as it was enforced liere before the license law came into operation, do you think it could he effectually enforced? — Not the law they had. •U572. You mean the permit system ? Not the permit .system. 235 •ittl it) .i'l m ^■w m i\ Liquor Traffic — North-Avest Territories, ;{t.")78. Wlial was tlie ditticulty about the workiii;!; of it ? - 1 do not think tli(! sy.s- tfiii of proliihitioii, seein-f it as I saw it, can Iw enfoirod witlioiit tin- oxtra powers tliat were ,^iven to the iiolico when I tiist came here. .■Hr)74. What were those jiow(!rs ? The powef of seiifch, peisonal and doiuieiHai'v . I do not think sucli a hiw ean he enfoi-ced without these powei.;. .■Ui")7"i. Takinji; tiie |)oniinion of Canada as a wiiole, do you think it would he pos- silile to enforee such a hiw witli a hody of men searcliing the I'esidences and persons of Her Majesty's suhjects .' We would not stand it in tlie Nortli-west, and I do not s(>e why you should stand it in the East. That is the great ol)jectioi>. It was not the prin- ciple we oh.jccted to in the North-west Territories when T came here first, it was not the principle nl' prohihition we ohjected to. not in the .slightest, l)ut we did object to the jiowers gi\eii to those men who w(-ic unyielding in Jie exercise of them. .'M")7t). Aie you a memlier of the Legislative Assembly ?- -I was a niembei' of the old North-west Couiv.il in I SSti, I thii'k, I came up here in 1"^84. I think I was elected in iSf^t), and I have been a member of tlie Assembly ever since. .■i4r)77. Th(> ])resent Assembly has passed a Fvicense Law v.f r.nderstand ? 1 t'N, that was in obedience to the vote. ;Hr)7S. T'hat measure was carried by the representa.tives of the petiple, wc Ix'lievc '. -Yes, the law was enacted by the '■epresentatives of the people in the Legislature, it was their vote. ;{4r)7!). You rt'fer to the law now in force? — Y'es. .S4r)80. So far as yrt time and drink to excess. Was that the state of things in '.he section where you lived? -- Ti ISSJ, which was the time I came up here, if a man got a permit tilled (you understanu the permit gave tlie right to import a certain quantity of liquor), it .seemed to be known from the telegraj)h otlice to all his friends, and the con.sequence was a the Territories a gentleman would ask you up to hi> "o(>?n ti) meet a few friends. He would make decoctions which, in nine cases out of ten. were composed of pi'jipermint or son.:' .such material mixtnl with .s(>>;."tl drink- ing those compounds ni'arly half the nitiht. .■i4r)88. Fie l)ought ^ubstanic- vith which to maki those decoctions ?^ Y'es. I'ei- haps if I could give you a short history of the Prohibitory Law it might be better than these answers, which are simply opinions. Hut my evidence is pei.sonal. 1 I'ame up here in 1884. I came from Toronto, where a different system was in vogue. I went to Calga'y, and there 1 found the idea prevailing that when I obtained a drink a personal favour was conferred on me bv some person or other. 1 took it as a persona! favour, and of course tho.st' per.sonal favours were conferi'ed upon a great m.any people, and the con.sequence was tnat most of those people who hail i)ersonal favours coh ferred upon them abused those favours. At the same time. T found the Mounted Polii'i IfoN, )!l(;il Sr. (j>lKNriN C-AVI.KV. J3ti t'l-s that luciliiirv. 1 1)0 pos- ersons of not SCO till' priii- is not tin- et t(i the fV <>i the IS ck'Ctcil r 1 es. .' Ix'lit've ? <'.!itun', it I'c, do you nt'cl iMjuor :ijile i^ot in very shi "."t rtliere you tilled (you it set'n\ed nee wa- a 1 hfiuil ii >s was ot' a M to that ' iir-i'. there luui used I did drinl< [■sorted to ' up to hi- lout of ten. and lie leiMi drink es. I'er letter than |l ean>e Up I went to ii drink a la personal Iny people. uins eoii Ited Toliii 57 Victoria. trying; to carry o^t the lav Session*'! Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Tl itiiei" th ould h lev re(pui'e( d to I lave exti'aordinary |iowei-s j^iven toth )een no use trvmj' to entoi'eo the l.-i and, as vou cannot have tiie l)est of men in the Mounted Polii'e, you have to excuse an occasional feelin<; of anger against them. Very well then. When I came up in 18H4, I heard many stories, as fo)' instanc" that nieiid)ers of the Mounted Police in plain clothes, visited a man's Kiuse duruij; Ins alisence and seai( •hed his wife's hed. In 1SS4, the Mounted Police e:e looked n]ion as the t ei'ior o f the countiv, oeeausi til i\v I' <1 t lose extraid'din- y p, ')t lustiee. of search, which tliev exercised not according to the k That ' iw ot n;;!!! tlie law re laxed, as vou kn the case in 1S84. Then the law as regards ])en;iits became ]ieri)iits were much more freely given in the country to people to procure sui'ii li(|Uor as tlie\ wished. I'lUt the powers of the Police were not i la d. Th d le eoiise(|uence vras that wliene\era man •I was on d |iri\at(^ \engeance against aiiv the force, he exercised it. < If I d kee]) licjuor out of the country, unless you give thf).se powers to a hody of ' o not considi r it possible to hut when vou do, you must he sure to ohtain the best men in the country. Whenw ■ were talking diout a license law, I was asked to draft one, and I draftesire in a formal way.' I think so. 'tln-y hail ii in thei'" power to express that opinion. ■■!4-")!*r). On the other hand, were there parties .u'aiast tlie rigid eiifoiccmeiit of the law, and did those people express themselves i;i a loi . lal way '. No, 1 think not. •i4.'")lt<> I >o you think the permit .system was veil administered ?- -No, I do not, •i4")!l7. l>oyou ',now whether the Lie iteiiant-t JoM-rnor made it a condition that he -hould have personal knowledge of the appiii-ants before he wouUl gi\e them iiermits ! I think he generally asked, if he had noper.sonal knowledge of the applicant, the opinion it the Mounted Police, or pcrliajis the opinion of tlu' .Member for that district. .''4."')!IS. Still you think the permit system was not well administered.' .No. When til i,ieutenant-( !o\ crnor had no personal knowledge, he would not grant the permit : l>ui I do not think there was any special class fasdured with regaril to the gr.-uiting of permits, r think in (iovernor Dewchiey's time and (iovernor Itoy.ds time, men who were i:ii(id citizens and good (.'onserv;iti\ es wcri' granted ]>ermits ; I th'nk they were personal fii villi IS. • ib'iil'J. You do not think they were administered on any special plan but wi-ie |iiisouai fasoiirs. l)o you mean that permits were granted to all persons who wanteii lii|ii(ir for consum]>tion ( — No. •llfiOO. Not to all persons who might a|iply f No. I liavc had a great deal of 'xpe- lieiu'c ill that direction. I have been a McMiibei of the Legislature for six or seven viiiis, durinn pait of (}o\ernor l)ewiinevs term and altogether during ( !o\ernor Hoyid's 'I'liii. Many whom ! reeoimiiended were refu.sed, and I ceitainly did not recommend .my men of ill repute or !iny men who made a business of selling. • itdOl, Did you recommend any who were in the habit f drinking to excess ? — ^ ' ■■. 1 did. I did freiiuently recommend men who .abu.st'd their privileges. 237 '1 ! « ) 'I '"*■■) Liquor Tratfic — North-west Territoiies. .'UdO'i. Did you uiiderstand that applications .I'ere made by a larj^o nunilicr who .simply desired liijuor to drink, who wiieii they ippl! jd, and were known to the Lieutenant- (xovernoi or to some tViend of his, their reiiuest i were acceded to? — No ; 1 tiiink as a rule if the Lit utenant tJovcruo.' knew they were people who were very fond of liijuor, he refused to j^raiit them permits. ;54(JO;J. In 1^87, theie were permitted 21,000 gallons and in 1888, otJ.OOO gallons. How do you account for that jump? — Is there no classification in that record^is it whisky, brandy or beei'? ;UGOI. It is a mixture of all kinds? — Can I have the figures? ;54()Or). I ihink there were 21.000 gall;)ns of beer and spirits in 1887, and ofJ.OOO gallons of heel- and spirits in 1888?-— You mean that was the four \)ev cent j)eri((d. ."UtlOG. That came in in 1889, and those figures ai'e for two years before that? — Governor Dewdney was here in 1884, and (Jovernor Royal came in 1888. 34(107. When was rhe increase? — It must have been between 1887 and 1888. The last year undei' Uovei'uor Dewdney the (piantity was 21,000 gallons, and during the first year of (Governor Royal, which was really only half a year, it was r)('),UOO. .■54(508. I was not spe;i!:;ng of individuals, but I was sj>eaking i.f vears ? (iovei'nor Dewdney came in 1884. The tirst year of his administration the quantity was !t,000 gallons, the last year 21,000 gallons, which was in 1887. The first year of (Jovernor Royal, in 1888, the ([uantity was ofi, 000 gallons. There was an increase! under (!o\ernor Royal. .'54GO'.). Can you account for the leap from 21,000 to oGjOOO gallons ? -I think the permits were issued more freely, and more jx'ople were coming into the Territories. 34<)10. Then you think the relaxed permit system was not good : do you say that ! to exist in any country, it nuist be absolute. If the people -If irolnlntion is "onur have to die for want of liciuur they have to die. That is my opinio .'54(11 1. Do you think they die for want of it? — 1 think they die for want of it. If a man has the moral courag*; to refuse licjuor, then that is a man to be admired. 34(112. Do you think the drink habit is increasing in the Territories ?-— It is very hard to say. It is a matter of opinion. I would rather say that I do not ti.ink it i; ci'easni M ore IU|Uoi is consun>e(l, but 1 do not seem to have noticed '.I s in- le excessive drinking we had formerly. 34(51. "5. Would it be well if there were obstacles, say the licensing of the (juantity coiisume( W— Y< 34(514. Are you yourself an abstainer? — No; I hope not to have my personal raatlers investigated. 34(11 •"). We ask doctors, lawyers and ministers, that ([uestion? — If it were not pub- lished, I would tell you exactly what I am. .14(51(5. Will you answer this (piestion : what do you think is the t^fiect of violating law o'. till! viol ator?- How can it be otherwise than demoralizii 34(117. Do you think that because there aiv men who desire lo \ iolale the law, it wiiuhl be well to reixNil the law? There yt)U enter on high gmuiul. You might as wt'll ask the man who committed a theft, whether it would not be well that the law against theft should be removed. I do not agree with you there. 34(518. Was the license law the chief issue at t!ie last election in the Territories? I think not. I think it might ha\e been so in two or thi'ee districts. Tiu' prohibition senriiiieiil is xerystrong, howe\-er, in this country, and if t he women were allowed to vote, the probability is that if there was an election, i)n)hibition would be c;irrieci. This is a very strong statement from a man who believes that a license law is the best to such, but 1 believe that the sentiment is that way in the western part of the Territories. Itilll. So it was not the issue at the last elect ii I think not. 1 kiK )W 111 al ca.ses where the candidates were opi>osed to prohibition their votes must be takt yrano nn/in. boN. Huiiii Sr. (.^UKNTiN Caylkv. 238 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) - A. 1894 JAMES H. J}KN8(>X. (if Re>>;iim, Sheriff' of tlic Judkial District of Western Assiniboia, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By .Judge McDiiiiidd : .■U620. Please describe i)rietly the boundary of your distri-rt ? It luns from lvan<,'es 10 and 11 up to Maple Creek, south to the international bounilary, and nortii to the border of Saskatchewan. .'}4()21. How lon<5 have you lived in the Noitli-west Territories r -I have lived in the North-west and Rej;ina (0 years in l)eceniber in'xt. .'i4t)L'"J. How much ct' that time have you lived in lie^ina?— All that time. ;U()2.'}. How lon (' you been Sheriff'/ -Since 1^*87. ;>4()i.'4. Did you come here from oiu.' of theother provinces'? — From ( )ntario. iilfi^"). From what pa>t? — From the County of Huron. ."■fd'JC). Wiiat law was in force v,hen you left there .'--The license law. '■\UV1~ . Have you knowii any otlicr <'ouiitry tliau the Xorth-west Territoi'ies under a prohil)itory law .' None whate\er. ;') KIl'S. What has been }our experience in the Territories : iiavt; you fouiul the law to be eff'ectually enforced? — At Hrst the jmrmit system was eff'ectually enforced for some time. .■Ml')'-"'.). Do you tliink tlie condition I'hanj^ed I--I noticed a perceptil)l(' change. .'i Kl^iO. Do you travel round the country '. Yes, in my district. .lUi-'Sl. In the i liquor in the country ? - Under the permit system, I always understood, and it was so in my cxpei-ience, tiiat the lii|Uor brought in was very good ; but the four per cent beer v.hich came in was, I o'jusider, villainous stuff". iU03.'?. Was any liquor of an inferior character smuggled in during tiie |iermit sv;lcm period ? — I do not think so. .'Uti.'U. We have iieard that there was impm'c litpior brought in from the United States '. I latute-book, such us a prohiliitory law, tiiat is iiersistent ly and liagrantly violated ? - I >iiuiild sav tiiat it is very demoralizing. •Util'J. liave yiai, as a citi/eii, seen soinelhing of the opeiatioii of liie license law ." nnported the importations were covered by permits. 34l)4i). AVouUl tlrinking increase in proportion as permits wen; increased ? — I shuuld naturally imagine it M'ould. .346r)0. Would th(! [>eople be liable to obtain the impression that because there was increased drinking. ])rohibition was a failui'e, as it hail not prohibited that ilrinking '.- I do not <|uite understand your question. 346;") 1. For instance: as the number of fierniits increased rapidly, must there necessai'ily have been an increase in drinking? Where more or less drinking is going on, I suppose there are more or less effects to be seen ? Would those titt'ects of drinking be more conspicuously noticeable : would it seem that prohibition wfis a failure because there was so nuich drinking going on and such effects of drinking observable? — • Naturally. .■)46")2. Was that the fault of the prohibition in the law ni the permission in the law ? — r could not undertake to answer that question. 346")3. You have spoken of the j>olice not having the sympathy of the pei'ole in later years. Did they have the sympathy of the people in early yeai's ? — I thinK so. There were fewer people in the country then, and 1 admit that the people were more in favour of the permit system than they were afterwards ; the people were against it afterwanis. 34654. Speaking about the four per cent beer ti at was introiluced, did you notice wiiether there was an increase of drinking after that change of system?— -Do you I'efer to the drinking of spirits? 34().")."). I refer to drinking of spirits of all kinds? — I do not think so. .34()56. Did tin; people instead of drinking spii-its all the time, take something else a good deal of the time ? — It would take a wise man to unilertake to say what lif|uor the peo])le took ; it was very foul stuft. 1 noticed iis effects on people who were not drunkards and on men who were in the habit of drinking ; its effects were very perceptible, and it caused them to be stupefied. >So a man would stop ilrinking it. 346.")7. So the four per cent beer introduced did not iiiqimve the condition of things ' — I think not It rather increased the consumption i>f spirits, because if you c|()()l. Hut F understand that you ohjeet to the ]irinei]ile ot iiroliiliition .' Yes ; I have iii\' own \ lews on the sulijeet. .■itdtio. Do you ohjeet to iirohihitioii l(eeaus(> it is not jiraet ie.ilile, as is often al or l)ecause it involves a I think so. Those f;it't> nithin ]iro|iei' limits. )>' |>iini-i|iie to lie ineornorated in 1 he laws of I he eountrs' wereui\fn to us I ihink, and we lenc a riulit (o etijov 'hem ;(•)(;. Y •iltiOT. Bv wh ou mean aleoholie ln|Uor was i;i\en lo u.- -That IS a iiuestion into whleli I need not "niei .■{4(568. ! )o you mean that it is one of the ^oorl ereatures of (J ;^ifts of (iod, when not ahused. IS onr of t 111 iiJtit)!). Do you think the foui jier eeiii beer was a i,'ift of (mnils ; hut is ( iod resiioiisihle for the conijiound or for the character of the conijioiind ? - As I lia\'e already stated, 1 am at;ainst the; ('rinciple of prohiiiition. .'54(i7.'{. You think the trade should he restricted .' -1 do. .■U()74. \\'\\y should it he restrictt'd .' Jiecatise there is then less daiiL;er of viola- MK)"-'". Why should there he lestrictions thrown aliout tlu; liipior trade that are it thrown about otiiei- trades/ i understand one reason is, that li(|Uor is liable to be tloiis. aliuscd, and there are some men wl lo lia\ e not sullicient control oxer themselves. .')4()7li. It is admitted, then, that tli(> lii|iior trade is of a eh;',, acter diUcrent from all other trade.s, and that it is neeessai'v to ilu'ow ivstiictions around it '. I am siieakint;- from my standpoint and accordinu- to my observation. :{4( u I . Hi i\e vou o bseived that not witlistandinj,' the restrictions thrown about it, there is constant abuse of liquor and damaije done to a considerable iiuiiMicr of peojile .' Xot to any i^ieat extent. If the use or abuse of lii|Uor in these Ter itories has been pioduetivi' of ill-etiipets, T lia\c not observed them excejit in one or two lasi's, bu' not to any >.'reat extent. IM)7'^. Takin.L,' your obser\a;ion in a wider Held, have you obseiNcd thai the drink tivid e is iirodiicti\e of evil in any deyrce ' -In some mstam I I iJivc seen evils ri'su h tniiii it. •"1407!). Is that the reason why the trade should be rest rictcil by limitiniith iber of licenses and the hours of sale '. - >'es, in mv view. •iKlSO. Hav. you •bsersed that under those restrictions, tlii' evils are I essened lliero are fewer people who drink to excess than when tin' trade was not li.nitiil or restricted. I think so, judging from the operat ion of the permit system oriiiinally here. ■■pK')."*l. Then you think the jiermit system wtis of some briielit .' 1 do. ;i4(iSL'. Wiis prohibition in the neighbourhood of publie works, that is during the ionstru(;tioii of the railway, a goorl thing ', The niilway eoiisti'uction had gone on liefore came here : it vv as W( st of here then, and mv dutii.'s did not carry me tlii h •'MtiS.'!. Ft has been stated that pidhiliition during the ((Piistruction of the i.iilvvav was enforced .'ind was productive of goor I ivsiilts I 1 h ive so UIK Ierst( tin .StliS4. \Votild pruliibition, eipially well I'fffnyijni, })■■ luoihietivi- of good results der other conditions? -1 Imrdly tliink so. .'UtiS.'). F)o vou believe, while of course you are opposed to the princi|>l() of prohibi- u. that if there were a prohibitory law for the whole country, '-..'ll enforced, it would 241 ■2\ -16** :-*i :1 ■( iijlit 1 m v''\y- ■ ! 1^ rin villi iKit think that in dealing with this i|uestioM, cii-cumstances must he taken into cunsideratinn .' I think so: 1 think it wnultl lie an element in the ease. W WnWVAVY I'.. COHDON recalled. />// .liiihjr Mcl>(,HH."). l)o you know whether any municipality in tlie Territories has thus far availed itself of the local option clause in tlu' License ,\ct .' -No. Bn R,r. Dr. .U,L,.,d: .'{4()9()-7. ^\'hat is the clause ', — It is one of the clauses in the License Ordinance. JuurJE McDonald- The clause reads as follows ; " \(i license sliiiU lie irriiiiteil liy the l?(iaril, fur the snle ut' liiniors uilliiii tiic limits of n liccii.si' ilisti'ii-t. wlieii it sliiill liiivc liecii iiiaik' tii iijipciir tii the lininl in iiKuiiier liereiiiaftor |ii.il eleetors within the (listiiet. ami after the person or persons who have witnessed the signatures to the said reipiisilion shall have sworn hefoie a .lustiee or a notary |>ul)lie. that he, the said witness, or thev . the said witnesses, were present ami saw the said electors sign the said reiiiiisition : that the said eleetors sign the said reipiisitioii v il hin thirty dajs of the date of siuli atliilavit : ami that the eleetors constitute onetifth of the eleetor> of such district lestimated as aliove). to eoimnand the taking of such a poll of the said eleeiors. lo ascertain whether or not smli licenses shall lie jjrai ted." John H. iii'NSON. 242 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 liil A\i: Dr. MrL"n,l : '5 H)i)S. 1 >ocs tliis iiiefiii tliiit the pcoplt' who jn'cscut the i'('(|uisit ion must (h'|)nsit 8-00'/ -Yes. At tho last session of the f,('j;isliitive Asseiuhly there wiis nn aineiuhneiit iiK veil to I'echiee tlie amount to .SlOU, hut it did not |)ass, owing to the Legislatui'e heini; dissolved. .'JKJil'.t. Tliat is to say that people who want the ^ote ti.rvcn are to make a ih-posit of 8100, even if tlie amendment should 1h' adojjted. Will they not get it returned I \ )ia\( not lookeil into that nuitter. ;!1700. Do you know whether after the passage of the license law, there was o])por- liuiitv olVered for the municipalities to take that course ? — Not last year. ."> HOI. That is the reason why there is nonuiniei|ialit \ under this opt ion ciau>e.' ^'es. ;'>170l'. The Act came into force on 1st May, I helieve ? It was assented to aliout that time. ;>17')-"'. U it a fai't that the law providtxl for a \ote being taken wil liiu a certain tiihi atier the cou'ing into force of tlie Act? — -I have not looked into the loi'al opiion 'Ir.u.se, as it is since it came into force. .'54704 5. It is stated that the Act shall not come into force within one year? Yes. .(riici; McDonald. — Hectlon 14iS provide: as follows: — " Tlii< ( )r ? (')ne. •"il707. How long have you resided in the Xortli-west Territories? — Five years. :)I7IIS. Mow long have you resided in ilegina ? About one year. •')470!(. W'liei ' did you reside before that .' 1 was in the North-west Mounted I'lilice, ami my duties woidd, of course, take nie to diiferent points along the line. :')!7ltl. Did yon come fiom onci«f the other Provinces' T came from Halifax, Nii\a Scotia. •'M711. Have you lived in any other country, except t he North-west Territories, Where prohibition was in force? No. ')17ll!. J Lave you ever lived in nny locality in Nova Scot r.i where local option wa.s ill force ' I have seen the cfl'ects oC the Sciitt Act in the Vio\ rnce. • WTl-i. Kr'om your' experience of (he working of prohibition in the NdiTh west Terri- tories, do yoii think it coulil be eil'ectiially enforced! I believe it could. • >l7lk What .system flo you thitdi it would 1)6 best to adopt for that purpo.se? — Such ;i system as was carried out by the Mounted Police in the Territories. The system that was itr foi'ce here previous to the license law eoidd have been enforced hen' if t h«» aiitimril ies had not been so lax in regar'd to the issuing of permits. •il71"). Then, in your o|iinioti, if fewer ]iermits had Ici'ir granted, tire police would lia\e been able to enforce prohibition I Yes. •>17l(!. What were the powers of the Police? They could a|)ply to a .Magistrate or 't .lustier^ of the Peace for a sear'ch warrant, and in the case oi commissioned olhcis of the for'ee they did rtot I'dpiire a search war'rarrt, if thei'e was I'easonable gr'ound to su.s- |ii''i that lii|iioi' was being sold oi' concealed in a house. Any ollicer' could search the house. 243 •-•1- 16 .'•'=* m iBi&a ij II Liquor Tmllic — Xoith-west Territories. .S4717. (Joiild 111)1- tlif iitliccr send .1 iiiiiii to do it .' \'('s. 34718. Ynii tliiiik with such a .systi-in, and ni> ])i'rmits jiiantcd, a |iruhil.itoiy la\ could 1h' can-ied out .' It could. •■M71'.l. Fi'oiii vour kiKiwhulgc of tiic city of Halifax and that part of Nii\;i Scoti do ^■oll lliinU vou coidd canv out such a law tliei'c .' Thcic would he a little nioic d itli- ctdl V oil accouii t of vessels I'oinitii' in t he hafhuuf, and liiiuor would lie eonce.ded on l)oaid. I7l''i. I )ii Vou thiid< the nuiii ihei' of residences and the ]ii>|i lulat inn w ciidd iiim1< e It more ditlicult to \ isit hou.ses and seafch theiu and search the persons uf the jicople ' If there were inojier ollicials to look' after inconiini; xi'ssels, I lielievc t here u liuld he no necessity to sear<'li the houses. Hiiw wduld vou Mianaue with ren'.-ud to the co.ist line of Nova Scotia, \e\\ irunswiek anil I'rinct !•: •d isl 111. would Vou ri'iiinre a l.aru'e force at ditieient points? — In the event of prohiliitioii heiiij; enacted tur those pro\ince used in the towns could he dis[)eiised with and sent to the cnast. the ■m'22. You think they woidd form a sulHcient force for the shoul think s( •in N'oii think that the police force in the citie.-. i-oiild he dispensed witl sent to the coast in uider to prevent liipior beiii:^' landed .' To :\ lariie extent. M7AI. At d iKi expei'ience there lid wliat wcaild you pro\icle in rei'ard to i'rince Ivlward Island h: :5I7J.".. 11 1)\\ \M)Ul( 1 VOU de fur the houndarv of the I'liiled ."states in () uche(/ d ( )iit; I should think the same plan umild a]ipl .'?l7lil). Would the same plan ajiply to the North-west Territories ami Maniliplia.' We h .•U7-'7 heeii there ii\e a SUlliCK 'lit l)od\' iif men in the Territories to do tli rk. And how would you nianai,'e in regard to iiritish C others could be dispensed with, and a j.ncat many of tl isons closed. .■!47;!1. J)o you think ih could be relieved from the sei r-iietits of jirohibitioii would be so <,'reat that iiians' iik I th llCV COU 34732. .\nd the ])ri.soiis clu.sed up? A niniil)ei Id h of tl lem i^ndd be. 3 17; counties. !)< How think the county jails could be dispensed with '. Yes, in SOUIe WIIU Id th I you propose to nianam! with regard to illicit sale in thecounti le same otlicers look after them es : they do it in ireland. 3473."). Would you favour the establishment in Canada of such a force as the Irish Constabulary to ileal with these matters ? No ; I do not think such a force wriuld necessary. The police in the \arious localities could deal with it. .■il73(i. You would use the ordinary police forci- in the country to do the woil: - T would take a few men from the force, men well adajited for the work. 34737. I{s is very stroi^lv pr James Williams. have leathered it from the newspapers. 244 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 "iiri-. S\ii)]iiisiMi; II Miti' was tiikch nil tlii.s i|iit'slic)M tui- llic w licili' ut' ("aiiailM, and it wiis t'litiiid lliut llii'ic s\as a laij;c iiiajnrity, |M'i-lia|)s |(t to 1 in llic Maritime I'luvini't's in Faxour nf |iinliil)iiii>n ; i1im> a lar^^c niajuiity in (.^iiclici' was au'ainst it, tliat < )ntaiio uas aiiiKit cM-nly lpalan<'c(l, that .Manitolia anil tiic Nortli-wcst Tcrritnr-it's were slinnuiy in taxmn' ut' it, ami liritisji (,'ciinniliia Id to I against it : wonlil \in\ jioiic tu ciit'iircc su'-li a law in (^ucIm'i' and iiritisii Cnluniliia with sucii a scntiniiMit against it ' All IT a litl li' tinii'. 1 hfiicM' ii wcmld lie cnt'iiicrd ; it wnnld not I nturccd tlir lirsi \rai-. ."il7l-">. l>oy. Was then' any riinstalilc iicrc lifforc that linicl Nut that I am a.u arc ot'. ."il7t7. Viiu thiidv that )ic(>hii)it iun wmild In' a nnod thinf; for tin- rcmntiy at lartrc i\fii it' it it'(|uir('d an addition to the pri'scnt iii'licc t'ofcc .' I hclicvi-it woidd. \\ c unuld liaM' less po\city in ihi' connlry, t'cwci' w ofk-honscs anil Irss |)ail]M'rism in the Ivisti'in Pfov iiit'cs. Ii I '< <| iinunv niciL A.MKDKK IC.MANl I'M- l"( »l!(i K T, of H.-ina. Assistant Indian (' i \'j, duly sworn, dciioscd as follows: ssioni'r. oil 11,1 .hnhir MrDoiHihl . 117 l>. How lollL' I lavc \du rr siili'd ill the North-west TerriiDries .' Sin.-e the fall |s7t; ut l.S|(). •■!I741I. Where did you reside in the Territories (hiring that time, in more than line ]ilaee .' l''(ir one year 1 was at Vnvt I'elly, and ti\e years at liattleford, and the lialanee of the time at I'eyina. •")17-")IJ. Where did you reside liefore you eaiiie to the Ti'iritories / In Montreal. •■!I7")1. Ila\e you had any e.\i)erieiiee of a iirohihilnry law anywhere else than in ihe Territories .' Nowhere else. •'U7")li. t"io far as you were aide to ol)s(;r\e its operation in the Territories, did y*'" Ihul it sueeessful ill |)roliil)it iiiy the use of into.xieat im,' liiiiiors as lievcra^-es f No. It has heeii to some e.xtent successful, l)Ut not entirely. ;)l7")-">. We ha\e had exideiu'c liefore the Commission of what is I'alled the |iermit system, under which people were allowed liv jiermit to u;et i|Uaiitities of lii|Uor and hiiii'.^ it into the Territories, at which time they would call their friends together and lia\ !■ a drinkiiiii hout as loiii;' as the lii|Uor held out .' That was just as much so underanv ulhi'i- system. ■ 'il7">l. Has your altent ion heen in any way called to the kind of liipioi- in use in tl;e Territories.' -1 think under the jierinii system there were more of the hard iiiiuxicatini; liipiors sold than under the license system. • il75-"). Or what we would call distilled spirits ? ^'es, I think sn. Take my own liise, I was livinyat Hattleford, (Ul() miles from Winnipei;:, and permits were olitainalilo 'lily oerasionally, owiiii;' to the distance and the liea\ y charue for freij^ht on hulk liipior. rile |itMi|ile would ityt the sti'ongest liipior, and they would only need a small (piantity iliiii hecause they diluted it with water after it was received. The distance, of course, iiiadr it imjHissihle to seiiil for lieer or claret. 1 was in th(> haliit of driiikinj^ claret in M'liitreal. hut I had not a n'lass of claret for ti\e years at liattleford. •il7"i(i. From your experience, do you think it would he a j^ood thiiii; if the use of liLilii wini's and ales was encouraged and the eonsuinption of the heavier liquors dimiii- isliii! ' -That is my tirni helief. The encotii'a<;ement of the use of lis^dit wines wnuld do iiiiiir than anvthinu' else to reduce the drinkiiii; of hai'd liijuors. 245 I - ^mf Licjiior 'I'l-Jillic — Xortli-wcst Tcnitories. $' W 347">7. Is llifi-r milcli ljl;,'fr Ix'i-I' used licif .' I liclicNc tlici'i' is !i yiiiiil (Ifiil. ■}47")H. Hum- ynii ln'cn lU aiiy (iiiic soiitli of tlic liiif of llic ('iiiiadiuii I'acilir Kiiihvay ill tlic (lircction of tlic lioiiiidaiy of tlic I'liitcd Sliitt-s .' Not cxfciit at Maclrod. ;t47'")ll. W'r ai'c told tlial ron.sidciahld i|iiaiititi('s of liijiior wcrt' Mnui.'iil<'d fniiii tlic ll^nit«'(l States? ^^■^, llial was tlui case at oiw liiiic. m7(iO. It lias Ix't'ii slalcii tliat llic Iii|ii()r was xcry liad in i|Ualily. Ila\i' you had any i'.x|)frii'nci' iii that ifspcct .' I liavi' had no iicisoiial I'xiM'iiciici' of it. 3l7lil. A license law is now in force in the Teiri lories : have you us a eiti/eii oh- servt'd whether It is wdikiii'' wt r \u\,\i' taken vei'v sli;;lit notice of its workii ]H'rsoiialiv, liut it has not lieei I veiv well enforced. •il7t)l.', ll; voiif |p;irlieiilar deparlliienl as Assistant ( OlIlllllSSIO iiei' of Tndian Altai pai'tof your duty is, I |iresuiiie, to see that intoxieatinu lii|Uor is kepi from the linliai H! .■i47'>.'. I lielie\e I hat under till- permit system there wa'- not so iiiiicli chance of^'et- t iiiu' ni|Uor as under the present system, so far as t he Indians w ere concenied '( — I'nder the presi'iit system many people have liquor for sale, and in some cases it is hard to dis- tinuuisli who are Iniliansanu who are not, hecause there are in some ])|aces, such as hiiek Lake, I'riiice Alliert and Ivlmonton, people now called Indians who were formerly ■mliers of the Treat v Indiaic', or who lia\e withdrawn from the treatv to accept the illV-r- re IS \ erv lit t le < scrip which was otlered 1)y the ( lo\ finment to I iaif-lireeds. The ence lietwceii those people and the real Indians, and yet they are practicallv the same as while citi/cns. Liipior iiiay lie sold in thost^ localities and to those jieople leually. .■i-17'il. NN f have heeii told that in some sections where licpioi- is allowed to In; sold, it is not allowed t o lie soK I ilircclU' to the Indians, hut white men wi II uvt it for 1 1 Indians? — It is done, lait not very frc(|uently. •"il7<'>!'). In case of a proliiliitory law lieing j)assed, a law prohihitini,' the manufac- ture, importation and sale of intoxicatinj; li(|Uors for hexcra!,'!' purposes, do you think brewers and distillers sli ha\<' li([Uor in his possession for .sale, it allowed in(li\iduals at larife to have liipior in their ]iossession for their own use. •")t770. And also for sale if they were disposed to sell il .' ^'es, ihouicli they wei«- not |>resuiiied to sell. 34771. Then it was license in tliisseii.se. that instead of there beiiii;' a numl F' I'soiis licensed to sell, the iii to I irin<> ill liquor preroi;ati\e res ■alitv. ted with the (i or of allow il ler ot dividual- •'54771.'. In rei,'ard to the permit system ; if it had 1 leeii moi e riijidly enforced prohibition in a larger degree have been a succes.s? — Yes, if it had connected with that sy.stem before becoming Indian Commissioner. I was CMerk of the Xorth-west Council and Secretary to (iovernor i)ewdney, and afterwards to dlovei- nor Royal, and I had really the adiiiinistration of the deiiartmeiit at that time, of course, under the direction of both of th(>ir Honours under whom T served, but some discretinii was allowed If the liieiitenant ( (lovernor was tree in granting permits he w; assailed by persons inclined to be prohibitionists for being too liberal : if, on the oth .\mi:ih':I'; Kviani-ki. Pohcict. :4(i 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 liainl, lie lii'ciiiii' .1 littlr St lid, III' wjis iissaili'il in Ictlfr.-. t'niiii nil hm-i i In' coniil i v \\ it li disc riiiiiiiiit iiij; jiiiaiiist ci'i'liiin jhtsuiis. Sh it uus uiic nt tlic liardcst sv>lc'iiiv |iiis^ili|i' tip iiiliiiinisti'i', and tn disciiininali' as liri ween |iaitii's. In tail, tin' i|in'slii)ii tVi'i|iirnllv arosf as li> wlii'tlicr tlu' Liriitriiant ( iip\ niiipf hail a riylit tu disi'iiiniuMti' lntwi'm iicrsKiis. lITT-'i. ''"^K. I suii|i()si', villi dill nui di-iiiininatr Imt is>iici| |ii'iiiiii-~ ;,'i'iit'iallv .' - Siiiiii'tiiiii's \vi' discriniiiiati'd with liicn'siill tlml I liavi'shuu W (• rslai)iis|||.i| ci'i'tain nili's iindi'i' whii'li till' a[i|iiicat inn had tn I His lliiiiiiiir hi't'iiif till' |i('niiit was jiraiitcd. IP ri'i'oiiniii'iKlril hv siiiiii' iii'isuii kniivvti tn III lii'cr t'nr --al 11771. I >i(l ynll nltsi'l'M' llnw till- illlrndlli't inn lit' till' t'niir |ii'r CI I'd: what was its I'H'ci't .' I t hiiik it had a lii'iirticiid cIVici mi ilir wlinl.': it laiiily dri'icasi'd tlir a|i|iliiat inns t'ur >tinn!_' drink. I I'liant ( in\i'nini', and I nutiii'il that mvsi'lt'. wa^- t lirii .'^riTi'lar\- tci ihc I lent I iinticf this, that in 1 SSS, at tl ml nt' tlu' vi'ar the t'lair lll'l' I Till Ih'IT as iiil nidiict'd, M,")!!! ifal (IniitI lulls ui'i'c allowi'd l)\ lir|-||iit : in ISS'.I, I I.Cf.ll i;,d|i sjiiiits well' adniillcd hy |ifriiiit ; and in IS'.iH, Is, |17 uallniis. .Sn tlicic was ,1 steady incirasi' in till' i|iiaiitily nt' sjiiriis used, u hilt; t lit'ii' was alsn a steady imicasi' in the t'liiir pi'i' cent heer and all ntlier lic[Ui>is .' N'nii did imt take intn aeeiiiint the steady increase alsn in tlie ])n|)iilal imi ; that, nt" oniiise, has tn lie kejit in iiiiinl. .•U77f'.. T icii, ynii think there was nn dis]ii'n]i(irtinnale iiicrea- It Mill take the it'|inils year after year, they will show an inerease, wliieh rannnl lie i'X|i|;iiiii'd. In I .^SS there were .")(!,()()() <,'allnns nt'all kinds nt' liiiimr |ieriiiitlc'd : in ISS'.I, I .") I ,()()t). ne.irly three I iiiies as niiK'h, and there was rertainly lint that increase in jin|iulatinii. In |S!M) the c|iiantity was l.");i,()l)() yallniis. fii l.s'.ll the t'niir per cen and was ciitniced. Then inchidin;' all kinds nt' liiiiinr' t lieer system was iiumdiiced very lai'''e increase w 1 II '.\|ilaiii('(l liy the fact nf the fniir per cent system : liiii tli.ii uill exjila |iianlity '. I dn imt think there was any dis|irn|inrt innate increase. //// .liiili/t Mr hmiiilil : 111 ciiil\- ,1 cert.iin .M 11777. The anuiial cnnsuiiipl inn nt tlmse lii|iinrs in the Nnrl h-w est Ten itniies and in .Maiutnlia was as tiillnws: in IS ItO. |s,s;«i. -o;!! IS'.M 'y.\\'} iralldiis, nr III lire t h an dniilile I he i|Uanl ity nt' lieer. w itli a very slii,'lit increa- spirits ']- \i's. I hi l!rr. Dr. Mrl.rn,! : '■\\~1^. In 1 SSi) the total impnrlat inn nf lii|iinr under permit was |.M,ii(i(_) ^allniis, and in that yeai' 1 l,tjlil' !;allniis nf it were spirit units. .Sn while there was an increase in licer. there was also an increase in the cpiaiitity nf spirits cnnsiinied .' Which is explained liv the increase in pii|uilat inn. • il77'.'. The iiit riidiict inn nf I he fniir per cent lieer, 1 Ijclicse, wa^iii.ide \\ it h .1 \ ic\\ tci lessen the cnnsiitnpl inn nf spirits. \\'a> that llie case.' Yes; it was niie 0. Ihit it would seeni hy the tiL;iires lh;it t he cnnsumpticni kepi pace wilh the increase nf pnpiilatinii, and that while lieer increased, there was also a |)rnpnrt innate increase in the cnnsiimiitinii nf spirits .' The pnpnlatinii ha- steadily increased cluiiiiL; ili.it iierind, and that is why the lii,'iires would shnw a dill'erent result. I think tlnit It the population had reniainefl stationary, there wcnilcl have 1 n a decrease m the iiii|Mirtation of stroii!,' lii|Uors. .')17c"^l. As Assistant (jniniiiissioner of liidi.iii AlKiiis 1 iintice that your tesiimniiy is similar tn that nf Commissiniier KiM'd. wlm said that e.\t ra precautinns had tn he taken iiciw under the lice'isc system in nrdcr tn protect the Indians fmni lii|Unr.' Yes. ■i 17S"-'. I)n you lind that is true '. 'N'es. ."il7S''). So tiiat, in that respect, the license .system is nnt an iniju civemeiit .' It is lint .111 iinprnxement so far as our Indians are concerned. •'>I7S1. Is it Jill imiiroyeiiient so far as the Teiritories are concerned .' - I cannot say tliat it is ; I prefer a complete piohihitory system, if it could he enforced. •U7S."). Do you think there would lie f;reat dilliciilty with r('i:ard to enfoicemeiit ? 1 dn. I helicxe it would l)c ne.xt to impossible to enforce such a system xcrv stricth'. 247 81 \ 5 IP'. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) 1.0 I.I *ii IM 22 i;s iiio 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 == < 6" ^ V] V) />< "c>l c^. ."^ > or /A Photographic Sciences Corporation s. iP ,\ V <> 'i'^' A- 6^ 4> ^^ r^^ 33 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (716) 872-4503 ,*> V %s nr il Liquor Traffic— North-west Territories. .■J47iSfi. At all cvfiitN, ymi think tlieii' wduUi Im^ jj[reat diHicultit'S? — Yes. ."UTH". l>rr«'(l in tlie Territories and that j{(kh1 results would follow? Y'es. .usi'verywlieie else. .'{47HH. Do yuu consider its eiit'ort'enient. if its enforcement could he secured, would he the means of i-educinj; the <|uantity of lii]uor intriHluced in one way or anotlier? — Yes, I think w>. .■147H1>. Do \ou think the Ix-nefils in such a case would In irked;. Yei liy Jmhii- iti-lhiiittl'l : .■fl790. In reyrard to the enactment of sut h a I aw liave vou had my expcruMK'c as to the practicahility of such a law, and iiave you considered what the eft'ects on the con munity woidd Ih> of |irosecutin;; cases of \ioiation. W'e are told tiiat in some places attempts to enforce proliihition in courts of justice ai'e attended l>y perjury. Have you had any experience in citses of that kiiul?--! have had ex|K»rience, and theefFects an; not iNMiellcial. .■!17'.M. We ai'e told that ))eo|)le look on the enforcement of such a law ditl'erently ir*tu\ the enforcement of all other laws, liaxe you noticed that? Yes, I ha\i' noticed it. .■U7'.^l.'. What, in your opinion, is theeU'ect on a connntinity of ha\ in<; on the statute- iNHik such a law as this, which is persistently and llaj^rantly violated .' The elfect is \ery hail. ;n7!>-'. Has it a tendency to hrin>{ law into contempt w itii the people /Yes. .■U7'.tl. In inci'casin^ the numl>ei' of permits wiiich were issm-d, it has Imm-u su^'- ;^ested tliat the rt-asou they were increased was the fact that a larife ijuantity of liquor was heini.' lirou<;ht in illejjally, hoth from the I'nited States and from Manitoi)a, and it wii.s thou<{ht that l»y issuin;; more permits less liipior woidd he smujjifled in .' Yes ; whenever permits were granted freely there were fewei- causes of smugglin<;. ."$4 7 !•")-(■>. ]jking at the lij,'ures in regard to the increase of inijiortations and liHiking at the consumption per head, the (iovernment ligui-es show no apparent increase, hut must it not lie take'i into account that the ligures of the 'juantity smuggled did not appear in that report!— -Yes : it did not a])pear at all. .■U7il7. And therefore, in spite of the smuggling, there was as nui(;h li(|Uor Ix'ing intrystem f Yes. proi)al)ly moi'e, Itiit thcligures did not appear in tlu* |iuhlic report> •■M7'.t''^. What was the first vear \eer 'L'ti. and wine 'll.'. Next year it again increased, the i|Uiintities lieing. in li^7><, spirits •.">.'{;(, iM'er I •4<)S, wine ■■i'.) : so that, as conipared with the previous year, sjiirit^-' alMUit . leei' l-ti7'.t, and wine '.'M. The foil )wing year, |f0t). I uiiderst(Miiiiiu'. As tlu' feiilrf's of ]Hi|iulalii>ii iiuTfus*-, you .s»'t' more ilniiikciiiu'ss, T suppose, hut this is Hcconiitol for by the iiMTcasc in tli»' |io|)uliitioii. ."USO"), Hiis tlicrc Immmi uiorc iiu'i'viist' in |>ro|ioi'iioii to tlit- ]Hj|iuliition .' .lust iilxiut tlif saiiu'. .'UHOO. It lias 1 II stati'd tliat not only li(|Uois were ,sinu>;j{l<'ut ooin- jHiuiiils wt-rc used. |)o you know aiiytliiiii; in reuai'd to tlicin .' Yrs ; tlifsc piactires were resorted to. i-specially l)y the lower classes of jwople. Where the person or |iersciiis (iiuld not olitain permits for one reason nr another to eiialtle them to <;et lai';;e (plant i- lies of litpior, they wouhl purchase from diiiii stores or from other stores essences of various kinds, pain-killer, essence of j;iii),'er and eiiu tie Colojjne. I know of a case in I'lattieford where a dozen liottles of eail de C'olo^'iie were IniUirht, and the people yut not rted le;.M!lv and some illeiraliy to a more or less decree, ai rdiii;; to the amount of strin;.'eiicv exercised. ISut no matter what means \nu adopted to j;et rid of liipior some people would ;xet it. .'UKOi). We have heeii told that in order to maki- prohihition a success, it would lie iii'cessarv to lia\e a lari;e I) idy of oiKcers possessing; tue same powers as the North-west .Mounted Police, with powei to search houses and persons.' That would not work. .'ilSlO. I)o you think in Canada, as a whole, such a system would coininend itself ii. our |ieople ; -I do not think it would he successful in its results. It dues nut coni- iiii'iid itself to my mind. Ii;i R>r. l>r.M,L>,„l .- .■')|S| I. |)ii you express yourself in favour of the introduction of wine and lieer and ilie encourajfemeiit of their use .' Yes : my ow II |iri\ate helief with respect to licjuor is, iliat Used nnHleratelv. it is iK'iieticial. The fault is couiinitted liv inanv of takiiiu; more lliaii dih of course thai renders i t \ei \ unfiiituiiate for tli Jieop d tlieir familie.--., and for the city in which they happen to li\e. and for their friend^ • itJ^l'J. You think that if the use of ii<'!it wines and lieer was encoiirai'ed it tliiiiiiiisli the use of stron;;er liipiors i Iv all those matters I heli ii'\e |ud;;in,i; otlier.- IMNMlf. it 1 Mtl|C|> lii'ia las a L'lMK I effect on n d 1 lielie\e it would liaxe a similar ellect on 1. I I am cpiite content to have a yliiss of wiiii' when I want liipior, fur it is heiie lid sooner ha\e a ylass of wine than a if the fcriiier, I woiiM take the latter. spiriis hut in the alisen I . '!K()l{(iK AHKLK, of IJeuina, farmer, on heinu duly sworn, deposed as folli lly .hultjf Mr Ihiiiiihl : :US|:i. Where do Vol! reside; I reside near |{e;iiiia. • IISII. How loii^ liavf vou lixed in the .North-west Teriitor les I settled here cailv II, .Mi 1 sss. ■'14x15. Where did vmi come from :; I- V roiii Wiiinipej;. If^lti. How loll^ did you live in Winiiipen .' I arrived in Winiiipei; from Thunder I'lay. whet-e I was the years, liviiij{ liet W4'eii Port Arthur and < Marke |{i\er, in |."••'" foiiif dii-cctlv t'roin Liverpool ,'~ I fvt.iiu' to Caiiadii in |H.">.") for Itnissfv iiiui Hctts at tlit- time tlu-v wen- constructing; tlic (trand Tiiiiik Kailway, and I was stiitioncd at K illusion, and was there tVoin .luly, ISf<;{, to Ui^tolicr. When I was on the (i rand Trunk at Monti-eal niv (Hstrict Toronto and (irat'ton. wa het ween •US^O. Tlie license law was in force down tlh I l|>|H ? It was. .'UH^l. When voii came to Winnipeg; what law was in force reijardiny the sale of li(|iior .' A license law. •'US'Jl'. Is the Noi'thwcst 'I'ei-fitories the only country where you have had any ex|ierience of a prohiliitory law f No ; I have hei-n throu;;h \'erniont. ;Uf,'). Mow did you tind proliiliition work in Iowa ' It was a frauil. .■<4S"_'ti. Could liiplor he olitaineil there for lM'\erai:e purp( pots of whiskv and P" its of lieer lid le olitained there in every towe aiu i vill; lye vou \ IS ted. ;US-_'7. Mow did vou find the law work in the North wi-st Territor les I wil this, that take the people .is a whole, there are no |ieiiple more teni)H-rate than they are. 1 think that since the license law has come into force, the condition of tliin;;s is U'ttei- in every way, and there has lieen less drinkini; so far as I could judy^e. I am, h.. ;{4S;U. The last, witness has spoken of sulistitutes U^in;,' used, s,ich as pain-killer. eau de Coloifne, essence of ''iii''er aiK loth er articles .' I have onlv seen one ca.se of ii, III and that was at Collinses. I rememher a man went round and ifot a bottle of jia killer ; he was iMirderinj^f on delirium tremens from drinking pain-killer. That is tln' only i-ase I knew of personally ; of course, I could tell vou wiiat others have said. Inii that would lie only hearsay evidence. i .' Pain-killer, essence of yin^'er and ditiereht oils lie, who when he took thosi' .'V|S."5"_'. Were other articles usee were used, '{'here was a man named Clinton uld only i;et it once in a whil 1 they were IkiuikI to make the most of it. .■{48.'M. .Iiid^riiii;' from your experience, do you think a i;eneral prohibition la\ dile of enforcement ? No. ;{4H;{."i. ho vol! think it is in the inti'iests of tli intrv that such a law should b< •t.-d l- N o. It IS not. .■(4M.'{(). If such a law were enacted in the co\intrv, a law prohibiting; the mi mu- facture, importation and sale of intoxicatinir liipiorsfor ln-vi-rajie purposes, should brewers and distillers be compensated for loss of plant that would be renilered usele.ssi I tliink so. .■{4H:{7. a (piestion that often comes to the front proliably not in this new country is the treatment of the persistent drunkard. There ai countries, wlio are constantly ap|M'arii i;; bef< .p Iv in the oldii ire the police court, beinj; sent to |irison tor short terms and a|i|ieariii;; ay;ain and aj;ain. In the case of such ineii, should they lie sent to prison for loii;;er terms, or should they lie placed in some institution with m view to n>tormation. s|ii>('ial'iy hil)ition in the Territories was practically class prohihit ion .' -!t was most decideilly so. Toui White, when he was up here, could olitain wines, «hili' the settlers, like doirs, could not *{et a i;lasK of heer without crinuini; for a permit. ."U.'^IO. You think the license law is more in the interest of the community as a whole .' -Ye.s, for everylnxiy. Jiy II -r. Dr. Mr Lend: Uf<41. You liavo spoken alwut iirohil)ition in Iowa, I lieliev» spo les. ■'tlSlL*. ^Vhat years were you there? -Krom li^T.'f to the sjirinj; of \>^~'>. when I ' to Canada, to Poi-t .Vrthur. .'US};i. There was hardly ]>rohil>ition in Iowa as far hack as |S7"i,at all events it did it amount to much. Have you heen there since ll^i^ I I I lave not lieen there since. • >isn. In 1SS4 there was a prohihitory law enacted and it remains tiie law still ii that Stale. Would you think it evidence of success thai the people retained prohihi tion year after year ', I think it was maiidy retained for the sake of peace and o(li ri'ciillect heinj; at Sheldon at one time. I was l'"l" rho was a lawyer and als nem I rohihitorv law of Iowa was passed in IS.")!! and \!^'u. iiid did not come into operation till early in ISSO' You are wron;; there. Iiecaiise I Ml the St. Paul and Sioux C'ity road, and we into the State. If you came from !\[iriani, w ,hicl saw plenty ot iKpior lioiiii; throu^'h th 1 was on the roai i, y OU WliMll 1 kl that 111. |SS| le was a jji'eat deal said in l>ulaii|iic al)ont the withdrawal of the lax ■ ilSM). I know tliei'e has i prohihition in the Slate of l< iwa since the year I kl now sucli was tlie i'as( :US|7. Y^ was not. u think that in the North west 'i'ei'iitories prohiliition was not a success 1 ■ 1|'<|S. Was that In-cause the permit system was so loo.sely used.' I ilo not think il uas loosely usimI. ■its IK. You |H>riiticoyou think it \M>nlil lcs.sen or increa.se drinkin;; if licensed |ilaces were h estalilished there? 'riieie are .so few settlors there that I do not think any one vMnild think of ha\in^ a license7. |s your olijeclion to |>i'ohiliition an olijection on principle, or lu'cau.se, in your lieli(>f, it i.s not practicable.' It is impracticahle, and tin- people are sup)HKsed to have the making of the laws in any civilized country. It is entirely out of their jiro- \ince to .say what a man shall eat and what he shall drink. A niiin is a fi'ee a;;ent, or he is not a man at all. .'ilS.")S. l>oyou think the majority have no rijfht to dictate as !i ^oxerii the liijuor trade f No, I think it is a^^ainst Christianity. .hat I aw.s siia llsriK. It has lieen stated that licen.sed pliu-es are a menace to out youiiji men and l)oys. Do you think there is anythim; in that .' I would not send a youn;; man into a ta\erii to uel liipior for me if I w.intiil any. I would send a man I would never send a 1 M i\ . .'tlStiO. If some people U'lieNc it a menace to their children, do yoii not think that a !ioy temperate, their wishes should he considered .' If home inllueiices will not m/ike all the laws in the wurld will not di ."tlSCil. Mijrht they not help.' No; I do not think ■'U."^*)'-'. Then you think the law does not help to make a man Itetter than he other- wise won Id 1) .HI8l);{. Is that true of al tut a man diM-s not like to he dictated ti .'MMCi-l. Therefore, all laws that ai-e passed which are not iieed«>d are dictatorial ! — Of course, the 'aw is a terror to exildix-rs, Init the liulk of the |ieople do not think that the\ should lie dictated to as to what tliev shall eat and what tliev shall drink. :l|S(; Tl leii III this matter voii wouh I h: i\e every man a law iiii tol iiinse I think .■Uf<('>(). I »o you think it woidd lie an advantage to lia\e it that way .' ^'es. .'llNil". \N ould it hel)) to hrinjf aliout a lietter condition of tliint;s if the trade wen not estalilished ! Then the condition of ihinvcs would U' a "treat deal Wdl'SC, e is estal .'{(SCiS. Voii think the condition of thinifs is inoi-e favoni'ahlc if the trad lisli(-d .' I think, under these conditions, lM>tter liipior is sold. .'ttSd'.*. I Ki you know whether the license law s Ltenerally are oliseiM'd or not ! No. •US7l). Mere or anywhei'e else ,' As my experience has heeii larp'ly here, I could not tell you. •"ttSri. Ha\c the laws lieen )iretty well oliseixed where voii ha\e lieeii ! -I tliiiil IS a rule, the laws have Ih'cii well ohsei'ved. ■'US72. l>o you know whether the lieen sees sold on have known of that lieiiii; ilone in some places. In stayinj.' at not tell whether th a certain extent. uiiiiavs a aiL'e nd after lioui> hotels I you could I I le were "liests ol' not. hilt llo doulit tliev do violate til law ii .'t lcH7;{. So the license law i^ not only not oliserved, luit \ iolated ! Yes : tin- fault is that the police are not ;;iven any op|Mii'tunity to catch the oU'endei^ •'US7 I. So, ill re>;ard to the license law. you have the same oliii^etion to it as vi h lave to a prohiltitory law, liecaiise you think it would he violated '. If the license 1 av^ is violated, do you ohject to it on the -No. (tKOHtiK .\hKI.K. Hanie ^iiiund lus yon ( 552 lo t< a lU'o hiliit ol'V law 57 Victoria. iSossional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■>IS7"i. \'i-iiliiliitiii'y law lias nut liin^^' toiln with it. Thf iii;;i>iiiiit v nt° man will (liitiiiii lii|ii<)r. It can Im> mail** nut of alnmst aiiytliiii;;, ami aiiywhi'i'i-. .■U'*?'"!. Can y'cs ; a (ifi'Mian n nf tlic |ii'i>hiiiitiii'y law ami iliil mit iil>i<-rt to the \i<>latiiin nt' the Jiii-nsi- hiw. ami ilrclai'i'ii it wnnhi not i)r a tailurr, on tlir s:iinr !,'i'oiin(| / it' i MmmI in town, ami it was after closint; liuurs iitui I wanted a lirink, I wouM not eni|ea\>iui' to iret it. it', lioweMT, I could u'cl tile di'ink, I Would take it. .'U><7S. 'I'heii voii Would lie a |iaity to tiie \ioiiilion ot' the law ' ^'es, anil I he law is thei'c to |iunis|i me it' I \iolate it. .■ilS7".t. W'oidd tliat lie t'air to a |iii>liiliilory law ' hoes not your •-ysleni anioiim !o this : that, in youf u|iini()ii, lus rcpiiiis liijuof, cvcit man wmild ilo \ery well to he a law unto himself ? No. I consider tliat it is a lienelii to the town, liecau.se it i;eis the revenue. .itSSO, i>o villi think the |-e\eniie i> necessary! I think so. If the teetotallers wiiiild siiIisci'IIm' the money, or a little money, towards t he jiulilic ex|ieiiditure, tliey iiiiifht lieiietit thecomitiy. ■'ilH^l. You think a license law is necessary for rcM'tiiie iiurposes '. ^'es. :USS2. i »id von ever think of this, how iniicli it costs the coiintrv ti lied t he revenue.' 'I'liere is just as much exjieiise alioul collecting other revenues as there i> in collectili;; li<-ense fees. .■<4HH.3. Have von ever considered how tnuch it costs th iiiilrv in one vvav or iinother, imiiii'ctly or directly, to i-ollect tiiese revenues .' if you want lo^o into the i|Ueslioii of ta.vation, \ miiiiit say that i consider tiie income tax the liest wav in which to raise a revenue in t his country. i think in I'lnulaml the ri-veniie on s|)iriis is more easilv collected than any other tax imposed. .■i|<"ortion lis tlie | pie drink.' .\ccordiny to Mr. (■osclieii, the late ('hancellor of tlie ivxciiocpicr, it is so. ."ilMJ^-'i. 'i'heii the country tlirives on swollen revenues iis the people drink .' I >o the people thrive in pro|iiirt.ii)H as they drink .' it miiihl Im- so in some I'ases. /li/ Jiidifi' Mflhmiihl : .'VlHHti. r understand from wliat you sav that you think a prohiliitory law is an interference with a man's lilMM-ty f - Yes. ;llSf!7. And tliat tlie license law allows a man lilierty. liui pii'vciils liim aliusiii;^ it .' Yes. .'U>"*SS, ,1 ud;;in;^ from voiir experience, have voii found thai the law works fairlv ucll ' Yes. .'VlS.s'.t. i »o you favour tiie fij{id iiiHpeftion of liipiors umler a liccnsi' law .' ^'es, :!)S!t|l. A \( ry ri;;id ins|iection, i suppose ( ^'es. • IIS'.M. 'I'o see tliat proper lii|Uors are sold to the people .' ^'es. •'USitL*. Have you ever considered the (piest ion of a hiijh lieeiise l.iw ' 'i'iiat is a matter tliat tlie State sliould determine. ^tlS'.t.'?. \'urin;; later vears I was west of 'I'iiuiider iJay and the roiul was under tiie I'lililic Works Act, and there was less driiikin;; and tiie men saved more of iheii- wayes. When we were iietween 'i'iiunder l$ay and W'imiipt';; tliere were from H)U to l.OIJU men i-mployed. At tliat tiiiie lii|iioi' was lirouf^iit across the iMiuiidary, and tiiere was less drinkiiiji; on tlie t'anadian Pacitic iJaiiway ; I tun now .s|K'iikintf of tiie work iietween 'i'liuiidor Hay aiui Clarke IJiver. 253 • ii Lujuor Trultic — North-west Torritories. I ' I' i' li ii •FAMKS IIAHN'KY, |m).s)>iI hs foilowH : Ity Jtidiji- ,]/<• //iiiia/il : '.\ixm. How loiij; liiiM' you r)*Hi)l(!(l ill tin- Norlli-wcst T»irritorit*n ? -.Sinct' lf vi'iirs. .UMD"). |>i(| you L'oinrou^lit into the country, I siijHM»se ,' - -^'es. .■{|'.H)|. l)id you know of any case where liipior wiw found? — Not personally. .'tUtUJ. Are you yoin-self favouraiile to jirohiliition ? Yes. .'U'JO.'t. Had you reason to sup|Mise that the law was well olis*>r\'ed anion;; the people in the country? I think it was at that time. .■U!M)4. Was tlierea|ieriiiit .system in force at that time,' - I do not think there was very much liipior l)roii>;ht into the country. ■'U'JO,'!. After a time, rniit ? Did thev du't together and ;;et liipior hrouj^ht in ? ^'es. .'tl!t07. Have you seen anything of that kind? — No. .'{■UtOS. Are you a total ahstaiii'^r'/ -Yi's. ;U!tO!(. Were you so when ynu came to this country lirst? Ye.s. .'MDKt. S<» you individually would have no part in such a matter? No. 'M'M 1. Have you had any exi«'rienco of a prohihitory law aiiywhei-e else?-— No. •'U'.Ul.'. I*oyou think a ;;eneral jirohiliitory law, a law prohibiting the manufai^ture, importiitioii and .sale of into.vicating liijuors for lieverage purposes in Canada, could Ih- ert'ectually eiifon'cd ? — I see no reason why it should not diminish liipioi- to a great extent in regai-d (o its sale, and thus carry it out to a certain extent. ■fUM.!. Taking tiie province of Canada, Ontario, from which you come, judging from the liahits of the people there, do you think a general pi'ohihitory law, if passed, could l)e enforceil there? I think there is no douht hut that it would (Uminish the .sale of |)<|Uor and the consumption. .'UIH I. In case of the enactment of sudia general prohibitory law, would you favour the granting of compensation to hreweix and distillers foi' loss of plant that would he rendered useless? — No : I do not think .so. I would ratluM" .see the widows and orj)lians uoiiipen.sat<-d for their losses through the licensing of the tratlic. ■■<4y|."». ^'ou jir*' opposnl to the licen.se law, f sup|MiHe ? — Yes. .■Uitlti. ho you consider the licensing of the traffic to l)e a sin ? — Yes; I do not think it is right.. .'UiMT. So you are opposed to a liceii.se law, not only on the ground of expediency but Ixicause you think it is wrong of itself ?— Yes ; J think it is wrong of it.self. .'{4918. Have you had any opportunity of observing the working of the license law since it has come into force ? - Ye.s, a little .UMIK. How did you find it work ? -I find it increiises the drinking. .■Ul)2<). Are there many licenses at Indian Head ? -There is one. :My.>l. Is it held by ai'i hot^l? Yes. .■U'J22. Do you think there is more liquor drunk in that section now?— Yes ; there ha.s lK?eii more drinking there since the four per cent iM'er was introduced. Jamks Hakvkv. 254 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 V. :l4!tl.':». Huw li.iijj iiii>, wiis tliiit ; III |.'2."). Has it iiicrfustvj sincf May .' — It is still imTeu.siii>,'. .■{H)2<'». Duyoutliiiik there is more (Irunki'miess? —Yes. I'luifr |ii'oliiliitioii wlicii we Krst caiiu' to this count i-y, we would m'\'27. Tt luis Ix't'ii stated that the people in the Territories weie in the iial)it ot" usin^ liain-killer and other couiixiuiids J -I have heard of the use of pain-killer, ."Uil"-'.'^ Ha\e you ever seen it used ? No. lili('J!>. Then you know tlii» .simply from heai'say ? -Yes. .'U'J.HU. Do you know anythin;; as to the ijuality of the liquor hrouuht into tin- Tei'i'itoi'ies at that time, whether it was of an impure chai'acter cir not ? I know- nothin<{ ill regard to that matter. ."U'.t.'U. Was there any illicit .sale farrietl on tlirou;{hout the country?--! know iiiithiiiK alMiut that matter. % /(•^r. Di: MiLeod: '■WXVl. Of the three systems : the peiinit system of early years, the four per ceMt lieer .system, which prai .ically aiiolished the permit system, and the license system now ill force, which did you think to he most conilucive of the sohriety and well l)eints, there is a tendency on the part of the men to ffet drunk. i»id it have that effect im voii .' 1 do not think so. .■U'.t.'U. So you were |ii f ajjain.st the inducements of pruliil>ition ?— Yes. .1 A.MK8 IJ]{<)\\'N, of |{e;;ina. Secretary of the lioard of Education, on lieinii .'5'.). Have you been in any other prohibition countiy than the North-west 'J'eirj- iiiiics? Yes ; F have been in Maine and N'ermont several times. .'UHtO. Was it merely passim; throu,<,'h ? — It was [lassini; throu<.di. • lUt 1 1. Did you stay in tho.se States at all ? I remained a week at Portland, Maine. .111)42. How did you find prohibition work tliere? — The people ^{ot ll(|Uor in by the li:nk doors. ■'i. How did you find prohibition work here ; was it effectually enforced? No, il was not. .'i4'.t4(>. Was li(iuor to be obtained for beverage purposes? -Yes. •■i4it47. It has Iteen so stated to us to-day ? -Yes, and it was of very bad quality iiii t. •t \\H^. We have l)een told that people would u.se pain-killer and eau de Cologne ? — 1 lui\e never seen ea.ses of that kind. 255 ♦ I ,;! ! I Liquor Traflic — North-west Tonltori«'s. 'IIU'.I. Ii \\tii alsii Im'I'ii ^laii-il tliiii tlii'i'i' was ii ciiiiNiilei'iililc ijimiit il v nl' li<|Uiti' isinii'.'i.'li'*! ill, aii^l that tliiit Ninii^ri^'lril lii|Uiii' iliiiiiiiisliiMl at'tci- tlii' |»'niiil >>, nf simiif^lcil lic|iiur Im-Iii:.' Iii'imi;.'IiI in in <|iiaiit it ii's. :>('.l>')l). \\'a>i li(|ii (ii'i'iiiit systi-in, ■>! a |hhii'i'i' i|,iulity than that snniifj.'lr(l into tin- 'I'cifitofifs / I Im'IIcxc so. •">4'.i'>l. 'I'akiiiit tlif |M'oj>lc iis a \vho|i>, and your olisi-rxat ion of ihi-ni, havi- you srrii an inci'i'asc of what iiiiLrlit !«' failed a tt-nili'iifV lo drink, ainoin; thf |ico|ilf ^^incr vou iNiine ht'ii I lannot sav so. ^lI'.l'i'J. lias this Ill-en a solier conniiunit v thi'ou<'liel lev*' 11 ( the l..ttiis- downe Hotel thei'e hils lieeii di'inki ll.T I li-i-nse I liai ll lere \\a,s lH-t'< .'il'.t.');!. We have Ujen told tliat iindi-i' the |ii'i>hili.toi'y -.vsirni peiniits tor li<|iini would lie olitained and haxiii;.' L.'ot them, the part ies would invite a tew friends, with tiie result that when the lii|iii>r arris ed there would lie a |>rolonL,'ed period of drinking' 1 liave heard of that. .'U'.>'it. Is thei')' any truth in tliat a]let.'ation '. -I Iuim- heard that sueli wiis the case. .tj'.t.j" .lu«i< if tl ;;ini,' troin what you have seen of the prohiliition system, the periml th system anil the licen.se system, whicii do you think preferalije for a roinmuiiity .' I think icense law. the 1 .'M'.l')*). It liiis lieeii chariced liv a witness here this moi'nin;; tiiat the wo'rkin;; of the permit system was in favour of a class who yol lii|Uor more easily than other clas.ses of th I"'"!' exiierienre I )o VOU know whether tha* was the ca.se or not .' f liavi- had a littli in respect totlu- <;riintini: of peiniit> il'.t'iT. As a citi/en, ha\e you had any experieiici I have heard that some peopi could not vft't permits, wiiih' otliers could do so. I d<> not know of any special case: .'1 Ht.'ii*'. .ludyiiii.' from your experience of the jirohiliitory law in tlie Territories, rli you tielieve that a j,'enei'al proiiiliitory law. a law |irohi)iitinL,' the iniinufaclure, import tion and sale of inttixicatin;; licpiors foi' lieM-raye purpose-, could lie etlect a uallv enlori'i'il ill Cai-.ada .' I do not. ;{4y59. In case sue) I a law were passed, would you deem it rifjlit that luewers and distillers should lie remiineraied for their loss of plant '. 1 think so. .Si'.Mitl. A i|Uestion that has been considered is liie treatment of the persisteiii drunkard, the man who is constantly iM-fore the police court and is si-nleiieed for shori tei Ills of imprisonment. It has lieen sui,'p'sted that if sueh | pie were loi'ked up f" some len;itli of time in an institution for inel>riati>s. much iiiMnl mi^'ht lie don What is your ojiinion on that matter .' I think that would lie interfei'ini; with the liherty of the suliject. ." ' '()i. You think it would lie better if such men were kept riiniiiii;L.' from tin- saloon to the police I'ourt and then to tlie jail and liaek auain to the saloon and so on .' I think souie effort should lie ina asylum h' ,iiij,'lit he reformed, and if he was not reformed, he at all events woulil Im- oiii of temptation .' Yes. .'! ilMi;S. i to you think it would U- w ell to deal with a man in such a manner so as ii< reform him if possible. Would you liojie to reform siic-h men by the mere enactment nt' u jiroliibitory law? Xo. M4'.H)4. If a prohibitory law were enacted, would you hope to enforce it with ri';:ai(l to such men ? T iiavc had no experience with re;;ard to conlirmed drunkards, and -o I really couhl not say how far you could go in tliat direction. Jiy Jifv. Dr. McLevd : .'U'.tOr). l)u you think prohiliition was enforced in any tlegree in the Territories under the old hiw ? Tt was enforced to a certain extent. If they wanted to get lii|iiiir in ojienly, that is htiiiestly, they had to get permits. I have heard of several sei/urcs iit li(luof coming into the Territories without permit. Ul)60. Then you think tiiat the jirohibitory law was not very eflectually enforced ' -I think so. Jame8 Brown. 256 57 Victoiiu. SesHiinml Pa|HMs (No. 21.) A. 189-1 :tl'.tti7. I>i> you think timi tliiii wax lM>fuutf tin- |irii|iiliitiiiii xmo u iniiij, nr \mis u iltic In tlif |MTinit nvsIciii! I lliiiik iId* Hcniiiiiciit of tin- |ii'ii|ilf wns n^'uiiiHt |iriis xNas ilic lii|iiiii' i|iii">liiiii. atiil the iiiajotity • it llif I'liiistitiii'iiciro si'iii a^ i'i'|ii'i'st>iittili\rx ini'ii >\lii> ai|ii|iti'il a lio-iisi' sS'.it-iii. I inn. ■r tliat tlii-v i'c|ii'CNcntcnlinifnl >>( tin* |>i'n|i|i'. .'U'.Mi'.i. W'c liail ill I'x iili'iu'f tii'ilay t'i'niii t wn incnilii'i's nt' tin- Assi'iiiiils. tin- Icailn' lit' tlii> ( ioMTniiH-iit anil t III' I'i'iii'i-sciitalivf of this (li>4triri, that tin- ijiii-st imi nf lii-i'ii-i> ,'> IN"" |irnhiliiliiiii w.is nni iIh' ihii-t' issur at ihai riiTiinn ' li \mis nni' nt' i Im' iliict' iNsili'K. In niv iiiiikI. .'U!*'!). I think ilic Iraili'i nt' tin- I himtiiiik'HI >aiil. anil I am imt ^iiri' liui iliat aiinlhiT \\ilni>s-> Maiil inactirally thf saiiii-, that at tin- tiiiir lliiit i|urKlinii was nnt in tlir t'lniit .' It Nwi.s priMlv iiiurli tn till- t'lniit ill Krifjiiu at that tiiiM-, iii-i-aiiM' I aiicnilcil two liTtiiii"* iiv Mr. S|ii'ni'i' whiji' ihr I'li-iiinn was yniii)^ nn. .'tlil7l Knth nt till- iiii'IiiIhtn said thai lh)> ri'|>ii'siMital ivi'~ >liil imi i;n in tlii' I,i>^Jm- latiirc I'hari^i'il li\' I he |ii'n|ili' in i)'|ii'al tlic |>in|iil)itiii \ la» anil i-nart a licrnsi* law. At Irasi thai was iln-ii' lest ininiiv. W'liv i|n \nii think thai lici'iisr is |ii'i-t'i-i'alili- .' Iii'iansc I iliink that a iiiiui shniilil Im- li>t't in ha\i- liisnwii ii|iininii mi that .siilijcft. Ii uniiM Im< \iTN iniii'h iH-ttfi' In ha\r a lirrnsf sy.stfin sn that a man can ii>i anil ui-i iiijiini' n|ii'nly am! jinnt'silx. anil nni i,'ii in liy tin- luii-k iIiili|fil, I sii|i- |Misi' ' ( 'I'l'tainly. .'I4'.l7>t. I>nvnii lliink il ii^lil tni |it'np|i' In haxi' an npininii iintav miraMr In lii'i'iisfj (■fitainly. ;U!)7'I. It'siii'h prnpji' Well' in till' iiia|nriiy, wniilil il ill' rii;iii t'ni I lii'ii' npininn In |>i'i'\ail in li';;is|atinn .' Nn, I iln nnt think thai nn that siili|i-i'i, tin- ( •iiM'innii'iit liiivf any ii;;ht In intiTtVir, iinlt'ss a man yni's in sui-li an I'xli'iil as in Im' a iiuisanrc lo ill mniiinity. .'itti7'>. riirii I hry hax)' ii i'i;;lit ti> inti'i'tVif with him. I sU)ipnHi' .' I think sn. :il'.i7ii. I >n \ nu I liiiik I III' ( inw'i'nnii'iil lias any iiu'lil in niliTt't'ir with t hi- licrnsint; lit till' I lallir .' I <|n nnt I hink I hat I hi' < ln\ iTunii'iil has ,iny liyhi tn iniii t'lii' with mv liax in;: liipmr it' I want il. .'U'.'77. I mraii in dralin;.' with tin' traih'f I U-lirM' in tin- iii'i'iisi' syslfm. :(l'.t7'''. hnynu think that thr ( iiiM-ininrnt shmilil intcrt'i'it' w illi ihi' t lailr hex miil lni'iisin;; it .' i wniihl ha\i' ihi'iii i;n sn t'.-ir as tn si>c that lli)> liipinr snhl was |iiii'r. .'il'.'7!'. Thi'ii ynii wiiiilil liaM' till' inspi'i'iimi nt' liipinrs f \'i's, ;l|'.'.'<0. l>\ what ri;,'lil wmilil ihi' < iiiM'nnrii'ni intcrt'n'i' i-M'ii that iai' ' llri-.nisc iIm'V liMik at'lfl- till' adlllli'iatinii nt' tmnl ; tlici'i' is a ii';;iilai .VdllltiTat imi Art. .'(I'.IMI. ^'mi say iIiitc shmild U- nn intfi'tVri'ni'i' with a mans rii;hi.s in this mailer. Il'iw is it, (hen, that iht' (invci'iimi'iil an' alilr in .miy In a c-crlain niimlii'r nt' pcnplr. vnii may srll ; Imt Innthcrsymi may iml si-lj .' What riuhl has [[^f ( InNcrninint In sax ihal I'Vt'i'X IkhIx in Iti'ifina .shall nnt srll, luil that mily halt a dn/i'ii shall si>|| ' Mt-caiisi- they iliink that a halt' dn/.t'ii mrn can supply a siitlicirnl cpianlily n|' liipim's tn siijiply thn iM'i'ds nt' till' tnxvn. i> l!''"'*l.'. It' tilt' I inxrinmi'iil ^aiil thai ihfx wmilil iml alinw I'Xi'n llmsi' halt . Is that nnt an inii'rt'i'ri'nir xxith a man's riu'hts .' 'i'n a I'l'iiain i'\lfnl il is. "il'.tSti. Itul I snpptisi'. Nxhi'ii III' Ix-rnint's a liiirilt'ii In thi> I'mnmiinity, hi' shmild In- laki'ii i-ari' lit' '. I think sn. • 'il'.i87. it" tilt' pfoplf t^> a larjir I'.Mcnt lit'lifxi' t hat I In' liipmr i rallic is a nuisancf I" tlit'iii, liaxi' llu'v the finht tn iji'iil xvith it, as ymi xxmild ^jixt- thi-in thf ri;;ht tndi-al " iili niif mail '! It" till' si'iitimt'iits nt" thf pi-nplf wfif nxi'rwhflmini,'l\ in that way. ilii'v XV I III it I (III SI I. •Jl 17** -'.-.7 m if Liquor 'rratlic — Nortli-wost Teiritorios. .■{4!>HH, Tlu'll tlic Vdio- <»t' tlif |M'u|)ln W(»ul(l Im- law '! I Itelifxc tlic ;iii\iMMinfii( of tlii» country in tlmt of tlic |i«'o|ile t'oi- tln' |i<>o|ili>. .■{4!>H!). You iii»^ Sccii'tiirv of tln' Hs. .'VMt'.M). Is tlit'i'«' II Su|H'i'iiit<-iulfiit of Fiu iiic Aclinjj Su|M'rint«'ii(lt'nt : do you fulfil tln'oUitcof Su|M'iiiitcii(l('iit I - Yes. llHHtl'. Hiivc you HU|M'i'viHioii of tin- NcliiHtIs? Yt'H, with my liisiM-ctors. .'UOlt-l. What is tlu' (iistiict covered hy you; is it the wl-ile of the Norlli-west Tei'i'itories ( The tlifee provisional districts. .■|4i)*.)4. Have you an !ns|K'ctor in each ? We have four Inspectors. :WM't. For the whole territory '( Yes. .'UlMM't. Then you have general sup«*rvision of the scIhmiIs, and the lns|M'ctoi-N iwi under your direction, I supiK>se I -Yes. .■$49l>7 As .Su|>*>rintendent <»f ScIkhiIs and Secretary of Kduciition, and priu-ticailv Superintt'iident, you ai'e interesUnl in the youn>;, of course. Have you observed that in Home places laws are ena<'t«Hi which ]>rohihit the establishment of lii|uor saliNtns within certain distances from scluH»l-hi>uses? No, I have not. :U'.)'.>8. That is true of a j^reat many States and of a ;{i-eat many communities in the States, that the sale of li(|uor is prohibittnl within certain distances of the scli{ / I think not. They are under the charj^e of teachei's and par«'nts until they reach manh00'2. Do >'ou think that liipior establishments planted in aconnuunity are tempta- tions to the people I'oundalMtut ? I tlo not think so. .'loOO;!. Why are tiiey not esl^iblished here, the near the s<,'h(M)l-hou!ses ? It is to brinjf up the younj{ in a jirojiei' way and to keep tht i away from temptation. .■{5004. Then such a place is a temptation ? \%'s. .■$.")00;"). Is it a temptation elsewhere? I do not know. .■{"jOOti. It seemed to me that possibly, since you have to deal with education, and as you deem that the existinj; places mif{lit be a temptation to the young, you mijflit have consideiM'd whether if such a place is a temptation to |)eople who, like the younu. are weak and unwary and easily led astray?- I should think that with weak | pie it would lie so. ;?")007. I understand you object t(» prohibition on principle? -Yes. ;{r)00.*<. Whether it is jtiacticable or not, you object to it on principle? — \'es. JJy Judge McDuiiald : HrjOOJI. In regani to the (piestion put to you by Kev. Dr. .McI^(m1 as to the sins of the connnunity in regard to drink and the sale of drink, and m reganl to the man who becomes a slave to it, two modes ha\t' Ix'en suggested of dealing with them. One nuKle is this : take a factor}', where 200 men were emplo^'ed, one of whom was a jiersistent drinker and the other l!t9 men used li(|uor in moderation, some, peiiiap.s, lieing total abstainer's. The question ar'ises, whether' it wi.uld l)e right to prevent these 199 men from obtaining liquor', although they use it in unKler'ation, on account of this one 0l I. I)<> yoii ri'^iki-il ili'unki-iuicss or tli<> cxcoHsivc iisf nf lii|ii<>i' li^ tln-onlv Imnn- till tiling tliut n'sultH t'ltnn tlifu^* of strung liiiiik, <>i' mv tlit'ii* otlit-r f\iN that d'huII iiidiivi'tly tViiin it ',' Tlif f.\(-i>ssi\f use nt' Htroiiij ili'iiik wunlil |i>ii(l a inaii t*i lime hi» >««-lf- ll'>.|it'Ot. I 'I lt<■^illa, ai'fliitt'i-t and t'li^iiifi-r, un liciiiit' sf««| as follows ; Hif JiKiiff MeUoiiahl : .'t")(j|'_'. How low liavf yon rrsided in the Territories? Neai ly I • y^'ar^. .■l.')Ol-t. Have you resided ail that time in Ke);ina '. N" ; jwrt ot' the tin" I wii> at ISiitlleford, and partot' the time at <^u'A{>]H>lle, and |>art <>' he tiim at litildtrid^e, and |iart of the time at Ke^ina. .15011. Wl'ore did you reside U'tore you '.-ame to the North '.vest Territories ; At ( »ltllWJl. ."(.jOli"'. In Ottawa in Mio.se days, as now, wa8 there a lieensc law? — Yes. ■ ')OHi. Did you, liefore you eame to the Territories, live in anv country where there wa.s anything hut a license law ? I have always livwl unrl ii, oi' d<. you oppose it ? 1 prefer prohihition. .'(.">01f<. l)o you l .■(.")OI!t. ho you look u|K)n it as something exjteilient f Ves. .■t.")0"JO. Therefore, you pn'fer prohihition. hut if you could not ohtiiin proliiliition, viiuldyou rather have license '/ -Yes ; that is the next b«'st thing. .">.")()21. Froni your exjterience of the ]>rohil)itory law in the North-west Territories, • lid you find it successful/ I e such statements lia\e lieen made. ;tr)02.'V Hut vou have no personal kno\vle«lge of the fact f~ No. .■t.")024. You do not take li(|Uor at all yourself, I suppt>se ? No. ;<."i02r). Ho personally you aie unaHected hy the permit .system or the licen.se system as regards the u.se of li(|uor yourself '!-- Yes. .■{.">026. Have you noticed any change in the connnunity since the lieen.se law was adopted! — I think there is more li<|uor consumed ; that is tosay, I see moi-e people usiny' iiipmr than 1 did Itefore. .'{."»027. In case of the enactment of a t;ejieral prohiWitory law, would you favoui- the u'l'anting of compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant and nuichinery ren- dered useless '( — I think so, since the people give them licenses. .'i.")02N, In case prohibition was not enactetl, would you keep the nundwr of licenses il'iwn to a small number? — Ye.s, with very high i'^en.se fees. ;{.')029. Would you favour the inspection oi liquors, to see that they aiv of giMwl <|uaiity ? A.I to that, 1 do not consider any li(|Uors to be of g ittic — North-west Teri'itories. .'ilO.'t;!. W'liicli do you |irt*t'cr? Tlic first iijuixmI. ;i.")0:t4. I><>raus<- tlmt was |)i-aotically proliiWition .' - Yrs, aixl it ilid luiictically i>ro- liiliit ; it was aliiuist a |)rol)iliitory law. .'t.jO.'t"). ! think you said tluil you arc an arcliitect and cnj^inwr .' -Yes. .■tr)0."{(i. So you conn' in contact with nicclianics and labourers / — Yes. •■ir)U37. Ila\c you noticed that the drink trade and thiulrink haliit have any special etlect on nicciianics and skilled laliourers : has it a had eil'ect, in your exiicrience ? Y'es. .'iTiU.'lS. WluMc did you carry on operations before you came to the 'Perritories ? In (Jttawa. .■{50;i!t. |)id you ohserve there that the drink iiahit liad iiny injurious eficct on skilled nu-chanics .' I did. .iotMO. Takinji your experience and ohservation of tiie situation thereunder the licci.se system and coniparin;; it with your experience and oliservation of the earlv pi'olii- bition laws in those 'rerritori(">-. how do they compare.' The i-esults would lie in favour of the early system iu're, .■{."(Oil. S'ou think the results were favourable to prohibition here .' I think so. •■5o04l'. Ha\-e you been at any time a considerable (MUployer of labour '. I have Hdt for myself. ;i."ii>l.'{. ^'ou have been superiiitcndtuit of labour. I suppo.se? Yes. .'{504+. I)id you observe that the men with drinkiiiir habits lost time for that reason .' -Yes. .■l.")()4.">. When I say the drink habit, I do not mean alone tin; man who drinks to excess and i;ets drunk, but f I'cfer to men who drink steadily, whether they ever u'f't drunk oi- not ' Men who drink steadily and i'ij;ht alonj,' j^enerally attend to their wo you believe that instead of changing the .system and allowing four per cent beer to come in, it would ha\e be(!n better to have rc^turued to the earlv ))r'oliibitcii\ .system in this country ? That is my opinion. By Jiuliji' Mr Dotiuld : :\'tO-ii<. |)o you think thfft in making a comparison between the license svstem ami the working of |)rohibition, it is fair to take the city of Ottawa and the North- we--i Territories as the two {)laces between which to make a comparison ! — No. ;i"i(ll'.l. Are not the surroundings between the two counuunit ies and the iwn sections of the country entirely different .' Yes. .■i.-iO.'iO. .Sjieaking of men who drink continually, you say that you find that such men while they may do their work regularly, ultimately fall into the habit of drinking \'> excess. Have you not known in the course of your experiences a great many men who |)erhaps take a glass of ale e\ery day and who never become drunkards ?-- Yes ; liut T consider that tho.se ar(! most liangerous, tho.se aiv men who geneially lea follows ; - Itji Jniliji- Mi-lhniitlil : .■1.">0.")J. Jlou' loii;{ lia\t' yoii residftl in tlic Noitli-wcst 'I't'riitoi'it-s .' Unci- lU ycius. .'..")(.). ■)."!. Hiixc you ifsided fill tliiit time ill l{ci,'iiifi ,' Yes. .'l."i(j.")(;. |)i(l y,,u ciiinc liiM'c from one of tlic otli<>r |iruviiic»s ! ^'(•s : I cfimc here fldlH < Mllflliu. ."('HJ.")?. l''roin wliiii |niii of tin l'ro\iru-t' ? I lixcd 10 yt-firs in Toidiito licfon' I i-.uiii' licrc. .'i.")(J.")S. 'I'hc license Ifiw wiis ill foire there, I lielieve .' ^'es. I lived llieie (iiiiimr tin- time ilie Ihmkiii Aet wiis in force in jiiiits of the |iro\iiice. ."i.'iO.'i'.t. How did you tiixl it work in reittird to securing; iirohiliition f I acled ;is |>ri»ecutiim- counsel for two yeiirs in York, find ! found the Act to he "i(Jli4. Was the l;iw carried out in this section .' No. The (io\ernineiit had excry faiility for doiii<{ so ; tiiey had the Mounted Police, and idso at that time there was ;i ^I'.irsc |io|iidatioii in the Ter/itories. .")."i()('i."i. ^'et it was not fi success .' t^uite so. .'i.'iOiiCi. l-'roiii your experience of the |)unkin Act in ()nttirio find the jirohiliitory law here in the Territories, do you thiid< .-i ;;eiiertil prohiliitorx law could lie etlectually ciitorced in Canada/ Not without very liroat ex]ieiise. .")."i(l(i7. Would thtit expense jirovide for the miiinteiuince of ;i lari,'e polici' force? — I iliiiik it would take one-hiilf of the pcojil,' of Canadfi to look Jifler the cither half. .')."iO(iS. Would it recpiire the .sfiiiie domicilifiry visits and the seaichinu of persons ahij of houses to make it fi success.' Yes, I think so. .■!ri()()',l. In case such ;i law were passed, should the lirewcrs and distillers he niiiunerated for their plant and nuichiiiery that would lie rendered useless / In certain c:i-es, I think sc( ; where the plant could not lie used for finy oilier pur; )se. • i"in70. Have you oliservcd the operation of the license law since it came into tiiicc .' Yes. • >'il)7l. How iloes it fippcfir to work '. It appcfirs to wcirk f.iii-ly well. I do not tliiiik, liowt'\er, thai ii is aiiv lietter enforced than the ]ircihil)itory l;iw was hei". ■ i-")n7L'. Is there 'ack of enforcement / I am in fii\our of fi strict license law and lii-li license, find I lidiexc ill the eiiforcenicnt c if such a law you have the true ri'i ly. ."i."i(l7.>. Would you favour a ri^'id and freipicnt inspection of the licpior sold ? Yes, mil of the places where it was sold. • !-'"iU7l. Was it (iuriiifi the prohiliitorv period llmt ii Ltreat deal of lic|iior w fis Miiiiuuled into the country '. ^'es. • i"iii7-"i. It hfis lieen stilted here today that people were in the liiil)i> of usinii juiin- killer find eau de Colov'iie and other preparations? I lia\e heard of that lein;; done. Imt I iiiversaw those firticles used. Tlie ]ieople f^ener;dly were alile to net ;,\\ the whisky lliiy w.uited round l{e<.'iiui, without resortini; to such articles. Ill' 1,'ri: Dr. MrLr,„l : • i'i(>7(i. \'ou spoke al tout !iii\ iiig some knowledj;e of the Hunkin .\ct. When wfis ili.ii ' Aliout I. '-177 or IS7S. ■'•"'077. In what Countv? In the ("ountv of ^'ork. 2(ii I .1 r \ 1 1. : i-. j' : '; Liquor Trsittic — North-west Tcnitories, sonietliiiij^ over two Tlio I .'(r»07S. Tliat is neai- Tiii-oiitii, I lK'li«^ve? — Y«'s. .■{.")07'.). How long was the Act in force tliero? F sii|>pos«< yeiirs. .■{.■>0'<0. What wliere tin- chief (htticulties of eiifoi-c«>meiit in York County i Act wiiK not sufficiently strict. .{"lOSl. W»i8 there a good deal of iitijfation in connection with thv Act? — Yes, think I had alxtut $.'{00,000 in Knes in one township during six months. .'{.")0W2. Were those fines collecteeopie is against enforcing such a law, and people will sn find .some means of obtaining li({Uor. ;i5088. You tiiink the desire of the people is so strong that they would violate the law ? I think so. .'55089. Is it possiVjIe to enforce such a law against that desire, with proper officials and facilities ?— It would l>e possible to do it, if there were pr<»per officials and a sufficient number to prevent it. The numl)er of officials would have to Ix' sufficient to be able to catch every one that used liquor. .'$5090. We had it in evidence by the Inspector of Licenses in Halifax that the only way to compel licen.sees to observe the provisions of the license law wa.s to have an officer sUitionefl in each plm-e to watch the licensees? — You would retjuire something like that. •'{5091. You think that each man wanting to drink would have to l)e watched, or he would \iolate the law ? I would not go that far. .'{5092. You would want an army of officials to watch »'very one, I suppose ?- Yes. .■5509.'{. Is your objection to prohibition an objection to the principle of prohibition, or to prohibition l)ecause of its impractibility ? -1 lielieve in temperance, if it couhl be enforced. .'5509+. Do you think that even the somewhat feeble attempt madt; to enforce prohibition in the early days in the Territories was, in any degree, successful f — It succeeded to a m. permit for five gal- lons and smuggled in fifty gallons more. To that extent the permit system was bad. .'55099, Certainly the permit system destroyed the effect of prohibition I So far a-; permits were concerned, but if there had been no |)erinits issue*!, ii<|uor would have been consum«>f the law. Did yuu observe any thing of that kind? — 1 read that stat«'iiient, and thought there was a great ileal in tin- way he found things. Thompson Cook Johnston. 1 lit 11 in, tturt'M. the list' lot 111 ^<" I bad. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 t'luililpd tin- utliotM's to ijipcai's t 1^87, that Superintendent Cotton, re|Mirtin){ from liattlefoi'd, said that every di'ystem ? — F do not see as to effects, iliat there is nmch change to-day as compared with the permit system ; at le,.i.st there is no more drinking t(Klay than there was then. .{5111. Then where is the lienefit of the pn'sent sy.st«'m o\er the other .'If tin; ju'csent system was enforced, drunkenness would be done away with altogether. ;{."»11'J. Do you think it is not enforced ? — It is not enforcen are occasionally seen drunk on tlif streets. .'{.">11.{. Who.se fault is it.' That of the orticials. They should take means to ascertjiin where they obtaine a iiiaii \\ lio is (Irimk. or tu a man iiiler- flJL'teil, III' til a man aildieted to lii|iiiir. '■>'>12-. Sii you tliink llieiaw lias evidently not Im-imi <-nt'oived hecause there lias l»een sale to men addicted tu lii|Uor f — I think it" the Inspector in a muiiioii)ality were to undertake to enforce the law, he could do so, whether the dealer was a wholesale or a retail dealer. Ci.") 1 L'.'l. Juduinu t'roiii your oliserxation of the lireiise law here and elsewhei'e, do you think it is well enforced ! Yes, fairly well enforced ; it is as well enforced here as it is in Toronto. Mol^l. It is not enforced here \t>r\ well, I lielieve .' 1 have never seen it liroken here as reifards sale nt'\fv hours or anythin;; of that sort. .!:) I •_'.■). I tl iiiULdit vol! said it was \iolated, and that it was the fault of the oflicial — That was as rejiards drunkenne: .Mi. Then vmi think it is as well cnfoiced here as in 'I'oionto nr anvwhere else? - Yes. '^^o\^2~ S. Here is a section of the ii License Orilinance of the North-west Te ritorie.s, lSill.;»L>. Section fiS ays If a pLM'Niin lli'i'liHcil iiiiilci' this Oiiliiiaiuc |it'iiiiit> ^aiiilihiig. ilriiiikt'iiiii'.ss. m any vinluiit. i|iiiii iclsiiiiK', liotims, (ii- ilisiHilcily iiniihut tn take |i1:ki' mi Ills |iri'iiii.sc.s )i- sells III' lU'livci's aiiv iiitiixii'.ttiii;; lii|iiiii' tu any ill iiiikeii |ii'i'siiii, m lu'iiiiit.-^ ami siifft'i.s any ill iinkcii |ii'r.siiii tn cnnsuiiuany iiitiivicating lii|iii)i' mi li |u\'iiii.ses, nr |)ei'iiiit.s ami sntli'is pei'Mins nt' mitiii'imisly liail iliaiaiti'i tn tisM-iiililc III' mi'i't mi Ills in'cniiscs. la; shall (in aililitinii to any ntlier |>uiiisliiii('iit iiiovIiUmI liy law I lie liahle til a |iiiialty nf mit lr>s than twenty tivf ilollais iim nimc than lifty ilullai's. ami, in ilefaiilt nf payinciit. to mil less than mie m iinire than two iniinths' iin|ii'i.siiiiiiK'iit." Do yim think the licensees have ohserved that section ?• There are other clauses in .'idditioii to that. A';/ ./iiifi/r Mr DiiiKilil : ;i-")lJ'.l. There is a clause resjiectiiii: interdiction, I su|i|)ose .' -Yes. Ii;l lirr. Dr. MrL.-od: iK'iU. Then it is jhov ideil that there may lie interdict imis ,' \< v\\ liij .IikIiJi Mr l)iiiii(ld : hiiyoii think that this clause meets with pulilic fa\our, and that the set iti in eiit of the people fa\nui's the clause in the license law which |)reveiits ^ale to cortaiii people : les. ;!.")l.''>l!. Are you able to say, from your experience as a lawyer and as prosecutor under the Ounkin Act, that I he weight of pulilic .sentiment in favour of the one is mucli Hieater than the other, that is lietween lici'iise Jind prohiliition : and that it is much easier to enforce the li^'cnse law, hecause the weiifht of piihlic sentiment is in its faMiiir' — I think so. /.'// I!>r. Dr. MrLr<„l . .■{•")i;i;}. It seems that pulilic sentiment does not insist on the enforcement of this clause of the license law? I do not think it is my place to inform a;iainst any one. ■■?.")1.'U. \'oi" think it is the dutv of the othcials to enforce the law \ Yes. .{.-)]. T). I 1 lo ICC com irt for If^SS. as fi erniim •'"' "''' ''i^^ ''"I' Suiierintendent I'crry say.s in lii?' " It will lie ilillicllll tn |ire\eiil the sale nf lieei nf j.'1'i'alt'r alriiliLlic streiiglli. None lint a clieilik'iil expert cniihl lU'teiiiiine the aniniiiit nf alenhnl in any particular lieer, ami theiefni'e in thi.i ilistrii't ii V'oulil tie liiHIciilt tn nlitaiii a I'Dluictinii fill' silling a slrniigel lieer tliflli that liienseil." — ^Ve analysed pinner wine and small beers. ;i."ii:i(i. With what result '.- The 1,'iiin'er wine was found to contain '_' ! per ci'iit nt aU'iihol and the others coiitaineil h percent. Thompson" t'ooK Joiin.s'i'on. ^4 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .i.M.'ST. Siipcriiilfinlfiil l^■nA■ iilxi says : •• The 'liiMiiiul rt'liinis fm- tlii' N'm tli Wfst 'riiiilm ics .■.IkiiiM lie \i-v\ i .intiillN >liiiliril littim- luo li,i-llly I iiliilfliMlillj; llic nifsfUt lii|lliil I;m . Tlie ciilly ttUit« i>t llir law aic ;ukhii« Inlmil li\ iill In li.ivclpi'cli most liiiutiiiiil.iiiul Id lliivc Ihm/m llir ill iff iniiMr of llir pciicialili- >ittUili('lit of till' loiilltr y. ' — Tluit (l»'ji('ii hcic |iai li. iil.ii ly • liiift ami «rll Ipfliavi'il. W'liat woiilil lie tin- illiil of a liiciisc sjslciii on tlir I'li lull Mall liiiri|> '; riity ari' very poor now ; Imt if «liisky coiiM Ur fivcly nlilaiiiiMl. I frar liny wonM In- iiiiuli \\o|-.n- oH'. Tliry alt' ('iifrainliiscil. anil liavc all llii' ijj^lils ot any cili/cii of llic I'oniitiy. anainr la« only." 'I'liai seems til lie ill acccirdaiUT witli tlie testiniuiiy of Mr. Meed and .Mr. Kiii-Met. tlial ilie jieeiise system since it li.id lieeii iiilrndufed, lias really heen a dan;;er tn tlie Indians .iiul llalf"-lireeds ? ^'es : imt still if' llie clauses i if tlie lii|llii|' law Were en f'li iced, that e\en wiiiild lint iicciir; tliey cuuld nut sell In any I lalt'-hreed nr I ndian iinl il lie was drunk. .")."( 140. Is it ymir iiliservatinii that licensees refuse lu >ell tu any mie liaxiiiLitlie lliiiliey .' I have seen them refuse tu sell. •'t.'illl. 'I'lieii they did it suniet ilnes .' ^'es. suiiiel inies. ■ 'i't\ II'. Superintendent I'eriv has oi\ en careful atlent iun tn I lie-;e i|nest imis ' ^'es ; I iielievi' he is at jtresent in iieniiia. l>i;\. .lOlIN K. WI'lLSlI, iif Indian lie, id, mi lieini; dul\ >v\urn, de|.ii-M(l as f,, I lows:— /»'// Jnrhj'' Mr l)i>iiiitl I"). Where did ymi li\e hef'ure that .' In Suuthern .Manilulia. at i>iii>-e\ain. •'!")l 111. Where did yuu oume fruin uri^dnally .' Kruiii Scutland. .■(•"ill?. I su|i])u.•") I u I . Is it the same license system as is in f'uri-e now ? — Yes. "i"i 1 "ij. Ma\e yuii e\er lived ill any uthei puiliuiiuf the Nuithwe-i Tciriliiiics 'HI Indian Head ? — Nu. ;!."i| ")."{. When yuu went there what sysieni was in fune ' The piiiiiit svsiein. ■ i")! •") I. Had t'liur per cent heer l)(>en introduced ! ^'es. .1.'") I .")."). Was there much cunsuiiied .' -A ifreat deal. ">.")l")(i. Was it fur sale at mure than une place at Indian Head? — At uther places, ■i"i|o7. Hid any peuple hesides those livintt in the village. I refer to those lixini; in Ml.- iiiral districts. Iiuy it \ Yes. ."i.'il.'iS. On 1st May last tiie licousp .system came into force. I helieve? ^'es, i'i.")|.">i(. How many licensed jilaces are there at Indian Head.' (hie. • t.'illiO. Is the license law well ent'orced there { It was not up to a few week- aoo, it "as not enforced at all. • '•"iMU. JUit it is enforced now ? -Yes. lietter enforeed than it was. The former Imtel- Imi'|ici was of such (pie-.|iiinalile chai'acter tiiat he thuiniht it necess,ir\- to clear out of 2ti5 ^t ' I m li I H * ) Li(luor Trjittic — North-west Tenltories. tlie hotel or In- would liiivt- lo«t liis license. Hftweeii the tiiiu* there wiis a change in the license system and the time he cleared out, he lan the hotel for three or tour we«>ks. .{AlCcJ. Who is the pivsent man? — The new man, in comparison with tlie old one, oliserved the law really well. .■l.')l('>3. You mean that there wjus a much more satisfactory state of tilings than there w»us jtreviously ! -Yes, so fai' iin drinking was ctmcernetl. ^•>1(>4. Was that impro\'ew ? They drank more at night. There was a great deal mttre drinking through the night, l»ecause the uen who wanttnl to get licpior knew that the law did not alltiw it. They wei'e afraid to use it through the day so had to use it at night when they thought no one Wiis seeing them. .■$5169. Wa.s there an eye seeing them ?— Sometimes there was. .■?")170-71. What kind of li(|Uor was it? Whi.sky. ;<.")17'J. How wjis it obt' ise<>, tlu' sis in rei^ard to tlie |iartifs wlms*- i laiiifs \\t'u>. 1(11 the (letition. He did nut coiiit*. We had a comniittft' ap|H)iiit«ii niendiers ut' tlio Session and of the Church — to wait on the Commissionei's. They did so and it was .1 liy;ht to iift the CoiiiinissionerK to observe that point of the law. In fai-t one of thu (.'oiiimissioners waiitinl to^rant the license in face of th»' fact that whihi ten names weiv re(|uired only nine were obtained. ."{."(ISCt. What did you say ,' - I was n<»t one of tliose present. ;l."ilH7. Then you have sfKiken from hearsay .' Yes; from the statement of one of the delej^.ites sent by the elders of the session. ;{.'5lfl!M. No steps were taken to prevent him jjettin;; the license f No. •■!.")192. Are you opjHisefl to tlie ii<'eiise law? -I think it would be a mistake to answer one way or another. A druggist is liceii.sed. .'!."» I !>."$. We are at present referring to licenses for Ix-verage purftoses ?-- Yes. •'t.">194. Do you consider such a law is desirable ? I wouhl not like to say definitely. ■'{."• 1 9r». That is as far as you are willing to gt» ? No. .'i.M'Jti. rf you had to ch(K)se between a license law and unrestricted ^ale, wouli97. Do you know of any community where ther ^ is unrestricted sale.' The reason the people do not support prohibition is l)ecause they do iKit get the real facts of the case. .■i.")19S. You think that, under licens*', the |ieople do not get at the real facts ? They 200. In regard to the opj^osition to prohibition on the (Kirt of those wh])ly that rule to brewers ami distillers, iiotwithstandinu the fait that they had to put in special machinery to meet the ret|uirements of the law ,' Tlicy (lid so at their own risk, and aware of the fact that the license was only for one year. •■i-")204. Have you considered the cpiestion of the treatment of the persistent diiink- aiil .' Yes : I have had fre(iuently to face tin? fact. • !.">L'O.J. Do you think that it is desirable to continue to send those men to jail for slmit terms, or should they be dealtwith in some other way .' I luivf thought a little further on than that. •">-'i2()(>. Can you answer the ipiestion in regard to the present state of things. We lia\i' a license law, and we have such men, and wc must endeavour to deal witli thein ( — Take them away from the temptation. •""•'"•-07. You think that would l)e a lietter plan than the (iresent one .' Yes. • '■"H'OS. And in regi. 1 to the future? — The l>est plan would be to abolish .-i s\stem 'liai necessitates such a condition. ■!-">'_'09. |)o you think prohibition would provide th(> ri'inedy .' Yi's, if it wero cairii'd nut. 2- I I. 1*11 ill)' |M' sit down ijuiftly iiiidfr thai systfiii .' Srotlaiid and Kiiirland ail' old ((lUiil ru's, and tlu'V arc vcrv conscrvalivt Tl ifv seem to II sai'rcd fct'lin in n-ifard to old institutions, no matter liow ridii'uloiis tlit'\- iiiav lie, .' I ■")■_' I'J. l)o vou ln'licvf tlif license system in Scotland is a ridiculous svstcm I toctuis MTc iHiw lie;;iiiiiili^ to treat |>eo|ile as if alcoliolism were a discast Tl es. U'V are treatiiiii ilic |ico|i|e liy clijiiride of liohl, and it seems ridiculous for the (iovcrnmcnt ti estalilish tlie means of s|ircadin,ir disease liy contiiuiiii<.' tlic drink trallic. I tliink. there fore, that the license system is rii Hii l!rr. Ih: Mr I.,,.. I licllli I'l om your oliM'iN atioii as a minister min<;linL,' amon^' the ((eople, do you think ]iul)lii- opinion, so far as you are ahle to juduc it in the N.irth-west 'rerritoiics, i.- a^aiiist prohiliition .' No, I have been told ic|icatcdly liy a numlicr of |ieo])lc with whom 1 ha\e come into contact that in tlie event of our hasiiii; a \(ite on the (jucstioii of pro- liiliition, as liet ween a prohiliitory law' and a license law , thi'V would \(>te for jirohiliition ; and I have not the slij.'htcst hesitation in sayiiiij that that is the feclinjf amon<; the majtirity of the |icii|ile with whom I come intoc"i"_' I t. I think you said that lit|Uor was lirouj^ht in on authority of old jiermits on the authoritv of thi' stulihs of permits .' Tl ay it was done was this Tl le permit i» made in thii'c parts. There were two p.-irts torn out and sent to the applicant. Me sent one of ihciii to the party from whom he wished to olitain the liipior, and retained the other jiart. He would send down one, for e.\am]ik'. to the lliidson Uay Company, who would send il link with the liipior. If the liipior was met iiy one of the constahles he would find the pcniiit and lake it out and s(.o loiiii as he iu.d a permit to cover I he iiuantily. That wasall that was necessary. .■'i."r_'|"i. 'i'hen so loni.' as he held the stub it stood between him and pro.seeutioii ? — So loiii,' as he did not keep a larf,'er (|uantity of liipior than the stub would cover. ;i-'i:,' I tl. So the cancellation of the permit has really \ cry little crt'cct ; It had really little elVect so loii;; as the man could gel lirpior in with the second jiart of tin- permit, and cover it with the stub. U'ilMT. Then all after the first lot he had to ifet in secretly? — Ves. :!.")•_' 1 c*^. Speakinj; as to the license law, the (piestion has arisen to-day as to whether any <2(Mi must be put up iM'fore a \ote can be taken on the (|Uestion. — Yi 1' •"t.-iLM'.'. Ik) you mean that the people wishiiif;: that a vote taken must jiut up 8-UO .' ■s. .Moreover, if it is found that on the jiart of the two parties there has been inisdcmeaiKiur coinmi tied. .some U iifair act done, which il was alle-icd could b. (I, balloting; would not be allowed unless anotliersum ;iltlt' in Iium' a |)lcliiscitc on this i|iii'>!iiiii (nv fliis part it t III- cullllt I'V uorii iiid uuf iiwii nifiiilici', Ml'. lat iiri' .' I do not know. .■'i"iL'2-'t. Wa.s the i|Ui'stioii of a plfWisfiti- lii'oii^dit lioforr tin- Loral Li'i,'islati\i' A--M'iiil)ly / I do not tliink so. //// Jiu/i/r Ml' hiiiiiilil : ■■>">1.''J k You liavi' spoki'ii altout tin- fraininn of this law. ho you think it was tV.-iiiird in till- inti'ii'sts of tlit> liipior pi'iiplr .' Vrs. ■'!"il'll"i. I>y whom was tlir law riiacted I I'.y tlir l.i»;;,'islatiM' Asscmhly. • "i">--Mi. How is the A.s.senibly ronstituted '/ -By thi- people's I'epreseiitatives. ;)"il."_*7. Then the peo])le, sjieakiiif; tlirouffh their i-epresi'iitiitises. enai'ted that l.iw .* —Yds. Soiiietiiiies tin- represi'iitatives niisri'presi'nt their coiistit iieiieies. .'i."fjL',s. Is it not rather to he supposed that the re]iresentatiM's are pi'ett\ careful III u'iiu.iciii;^ the opinions of the people wiioiii 1 1 ley represent ,' Some of them take eare to <|o that. •"I'l^l.".*. ho you think that others do not? — Yes. • >•">:.'•■!() 1. ho you think that those who do not \oted for t his law .' I would not siiy llial. .'l.'iL'.'ll'. .Still there is a chaise that Wii^ ado|ited hy IJie iii'i,'islati\i' .Vssemhly |iro\idinj; that if peojile want to incur the e.xjieiise of havin<^ a \i)te of f these, |(tl propose local option ami want it and the other W oppo.se it. Would Voii put those ilil to the e.'vpense iif haviuj,' that Mite taken on a (|uestioii to which they were op|iosed '. Yes: just in the •-aiiic way as in our Local Assemhly if there was a majority of only one aiiaiiist i he tiuvcrnment that would he sutHcieiit to cause a dissolution of the House and an appeal 111 the |ieople, and the Territories would ha\c to |iay the e.xpense. •"i.j2;i(i. Take this (juestion from another point of view. Y'ou ha\i! a muiiici]ialily ill which the |ieo])le ask for this vote, and when the vote is taken it is found that out of the 'jot) voters 1(X) are a<;.'iinst local option and only •")() in favour of it. Those ."iD ha\e I'iiiiscd a large e.xpense to the community. Should they not hear t hat expense iheiiisehes, instead of all the ratepayeis lii'ing called upon to pay '. \ wiaild hardly fa\ our a \ote lieim^ taken if there was that proportion aifainst it. "i."ij.")7. There must he some means of asceitainiii;; imMic opinion. jtut you wcuild '111 a \.iy with the de]iosit of .■*L'(J() [ ^'c.s. jT^ !?-J00 .' IS lieeli ould 1" hy the ahovc it, only wink. see the 'ouutiy. do liiil \f(\ with rho arc 1 l,c liUll .\. r.OWHX PKliUY, Superiiilemleiit of the Nnith-wcsl .Mounteil police, oil being 'Inly sworn, ilt'iiosi'd as follows : — ]iy Judyii McDoiud'l : :i.'i2:lS. What is the jurisdiction of the Mounted Police '. The Territories are di\ idecl iiiiii ili\isions. and each district is under a Superintendent, who has charge of the police Miitioiied at that particular place. •'■Ol'.'iil. What i.s your jurisdiction at present ! — The portion of the Territories sur- iiiuiidin!.' here. •■i5l' JO. Where were you liefore you came here ! — At Prince Alhert and several other I'l.lrcs. i"iL'll. J hid you any experience oi the prohiliitory law in the North-west Tei-ri- tiiriis ?--Yo.s. 269 W.s'^ I []'<■■ M ;' LiqiU)!' 'riattir — NorHi-wost Territories. '■S'l'lVl. Hi>w l<»nji lui\t' you Immmi in tlit* Territ<»i-ies .' 'IVn vf/irs. .("(L'l.'f. NN'iis tlie pniliiWitorv liiw in force wlu-ri y<»ii fiini«' lnMe ! It whs. ;{")•_' n. How did it work? In the eiirly days it seunietl very effective ; thiit was Itelore the intiixluction of iiiilwiiys. The niilwnys incieiised \eFy nnich the tiuilities of l>ringin^ in lli|uoi°. .■{"»'Jt"). It wus not dirticidt to enforce the law in those days, I suppose '. No. .■<5l'4(). \V(i« there any 8niug«;Hnj{ ffoini; on f There wiis sniuuglinn or iittenipted sniug^lin};, of course. .■{")247. Tell us in what kind of packaj^es the li(|Uor was Inought in .' N'erv often in ke;.'s and I)arrel8. The 8aine care was not Uiken In't'ore the railways came in. lu'cause the sinug;{lers came across the country and were UKtre easily cauirht ; Imt when the rail ways were huilt lii|U(»r was smuggled in with other giMMJs. .■{'(•J4H. \\'a,s it brought over the Iniundary \ \'es. ;{.'»24!). Have you l)een at Kort MaclecxI T-f have. ;{r)"J.")0. We understand that in that part of tiie country a large amount of sniugglinu was cariitnl on from tlie Uiuted States? No doubt. W'Yl'A. Do you know anything of the character of the li<|Uor that was brought in from tiie I'nited States?— 1 have always lu^ard that it was v<^ry bad "fortv rot! " W'yl'rl. We are told that under the permit sy.stem attempts were made occa.sionallv to avoid the law by using permits a second time f — No doubt that was uttemjited. :{.")•_*.");?. And also the stubs were used '.' Yes. 'jr)2o4. What was the law in regard to taking up the stub .' It wa.s never re<|uire(l. When a man made application for another |)ermit he pinnef course it was a fraud if a man got liquor in the country, otherwise than by permit, or he retained the old permit so that he could show it to the police to cover any lii|uor that he had on hand. I'nder thr extraordinary jMjwers the police had, we could search on mere suspicion. Tf we fointd li(|Uor and the man showed u permit, the jiolice could not go Iteyond making in<|uiries : there was a certain (|uantity of licjuor there, and tlu^re was a permit covering it. It might have been brought in time and time again and the ((uantity might have been resold, but so long as the man had a permit covering the licjuur in his jKJSsession, it wa^ practically free from seizure. WWl'^^). So seizures were in this way avoided? Yes: but this was onlv done l)\ people who wantetl to break the law and sell alcohol. :jr)L'r)(l. ^Ve have been told that people would bring liquor in under permit and their friends would then assemble, and that there would be a Ijout of hard drinking. Have you seen anything of that kind? There has been the charge made that this svstem led to over-indulgence at particular times? — NS. Did you find yourself in a position to stojt the giving or sale of liipior in liulians when the permit system was in force? Our hands were strengthened in t'lat respect by the permit system. .'{iJ"J5y. It has l)een stated thit you reported that it was easier to keep liquor frmii the Indians uiuler the ])resent system than it was under licen.se?— That was before tin' license law came in. 1 was speaking of the liquor law as it existed then. I was pru- phes\-ing what the result would Ije if the law were changed. '.\Wl'^%i. Had you any experience with the license system in regard to Indiiin^ obtaining liciuor ? — It is very difficult to accurately .judge between the permit .system and license. The license system only came into force on 1st May, and I have not been able to get the facts on which to base a judgment. I am not prepared to give a detiniti- answer as between the two .systems at the present time : I need more facts and nimv opportunities to form an opinion on tliat subject. A. BowKX Pkkky. 270 57 Victoria. Sessional Pai)eis (No. 21.) A. 1894 ie iM't'ii , it Wil- li )iif' (I thfir (liHir 1' .'l.jJIiO. 'I'll*' |H)lii'c, I lii'lifXf, liud tilt' I'iijlit to visit liou^rs iiml sfiirrli ImuHf.s iintl iPciNdiis .' Oiii- i'i>{lits wt'i'i' vt'i'y fxtfiisivc uiiil tu a il\s<-iliiiu limist' it «ii.s iifc«'.sHiirv that iiii iithcei' Hhiiiild ;;iv(* tlu' mdiT ; it' not, ii ('i>ii>ital>ii' uii mrr*- Mispirinii rouUI scai'fh tiii<>U){h Ihf |iliifc. .■<")'_Mil. Hiivc yoii yoiirselt'. in thf WiHchiirj,"' '>t' yntif dutifs. ever ciinjjht simmjflj'iit ! Nid you notice the effeet of the \u\\ (hiriiij; tlie ronsliuction periiKl of liie lailwiiy ; It wiiH more iMMielicial during the construetion [lei'liKJ. 't.*»l'()4. There was a larj^e iMwiy of men em|iioy«>.U00 men were at norlc oti the Caniuiian Pacitir Hailway. .'I'fJt)."!. I notice in your report of ISHS, to which I did not refei' hefore. you spoke of the extraordinary |M»wers of tlie Mounted I'oUce, t lie power of search, and then you .said th(»se powers Inul no i-tfect where jiermits were held. Can you explain whv ; was that owin;; to tlie stuhs '! Yes. .■i.")2t><). You have, 1 supjM)S)', fre<|uently made searches and have found liquor, liiit viiu could Mot do anythiii;; l)ecause |)ermits would Im- priiiui,'j,ded litjuor. :l.")2ftfl. 'This ^ave you no clue durinj; later years so as to eiiahle you to exercise the liiw ! It simply multiplie system, increasetl or diminished ? It is too early to make a comparison. .■i.")27l. in I8fi('i't of .selling tilt' lii|iiiir tliiis iiiiportL'il." Ilii- the experience of latei- years but continued your experience of that time ? — I do imi iliiiik 1 was wron;; in the statement made. :i.")*_'7l.'. l)o you believe, from your residence in the Territories and your observation. tii:ii it would lie possible to fairly well enforce jj;eiieral prohibition, if a pi-oliibitory law were enacted and appliance.s created for its enforcement.' It would depend entirely Mpnii the moral support >,'iven by the people of the country. ■'t.")27."{. Have you had any means of ascertainiiii; the public seMtiiiienl on this i|Ui'stion ? — No; I am not prepared to ,iti\e an opinion about that. • >-''i'J74. If they were in favour of it, could such a measure lie enforced ?- — If the I'lniije were in favour of prohibition, it would be enforced ; it could be, as well as any "tlii'i- law. I believe such a law could not be eiiforcefl if the public were not in favour lit' it or in sympathy with it. It simply comes back to the streiij^th of public o|iinioii. •"i.''r_'7-'"). I presume from what youha\e reported, as well u\ the statements you ha\c iiiiule to-day, that you believe if ;;eneral prohibition was enforced by the will of the |ii'i)lile, fairly well ent'orcetl, the eflfects would Ik- <.;o(m1 in the main : that if the will of the ln"i(|ile were expressed on a pidhibitory etuictment and it were well enforced, the effect nil ilie moral and material interests of the country would be ')/ .liithji Me UiHiitlil : ;5."i-7'>. ^'|'U iiri- iiwiii'f llml the lici'iisi- law I'lmtiiiiis |ii'ii|iiliiiiir\ cliuiscs .' It i|.ii'>. ;i'>-77. Iliivc yoii t'wv li\i'(l ill Oiitmin .' I wiis Inirii iiml Iimmi^jIiI u|> tlini'. ;l.'»i.'7i^. Was ilicrc a |ii'iiliil)itiii'y law in f'ni'ct' llirrr '. Nn, I think nut. .'ir)lJ7l>. Takiiiji wliat ynii know ut' |uil(lif t'cciinj;. du y<>ii imt tind dial tlitTf is a u'l't-attT sym|>alliy with tin- |iriiliil)itiiiy clauses nt' the iiri'iisc law ,' I iliink so. I think an u|ii'i!.'lit saloon man would not sell to drunkaids. .H.'H'SO. Or on Sundays ( No. M.'iL'.'^i, 'I'akin;; the couiiti'y as a wholf, sii|i|iosi' you toiind that in the .Mai'i*iiii>' f'roviiii't'M then' was a v«m'v Htronj^ si'iitiiiit'iit in t'avouf of proliihitioii, |() to I, the I'rovince of (^iH'licc was ayaiii.sl it, (>iitafio diNidrd, a stron;,' fct'lin;,' in fa\oui- of it. in Manitoha, and Iti'itish ( 'oliinihia Id to I a;;aiiisl it, would you ho|it' to he alilc to eiifoi a |ii'oliiliilioii law in Itiitish (7oluiiiliia ,' No. .'iriL'Mi'. Hut if tlu'i») was suUioieiil wcij^lit of |(uliiif opinion in favour of such a law, you Iti'lievc it could 1m' cnfoirjid ?- Any law can lie cnfurct'd under Hueli conditions, ; I. "»•_', ><.■(, |>o you think there is a diM'erent feelin;; in regard to this law I lijin in re;jarci to iiny other law f Yes ; hecause to take lic|uoi' is not a crime in itself, hut it would lie made - of Keyiiia, nieichanl ,011 lieing duly sworn, deposed .is follii\\ - Hy ,hid[i>'. McDiHinhl : .■>ol'S7. Have you lielil any position in connection \\ilh piihlic ,iHaifs ? No. .'t.'i'JS.'^. In what line of mercantile laisiness are you eiii;ai,'ed ,' fn.se\eral. ram Manager of the Western .Millinj,' Com)iany. .■{.">L'S!I. How lonj; have you lived in the Territories? — Ten yeiirs. .■>.") l.'!l( I. How lonj; ha\e you lived in l!ej;ina .' .\ll the t ime, e\ce|it when I w;i- 1 1 ,i\ c'llinj;. .'i.")"_".t 1 . Where have you Ir.ivelled? All oxer; in .M.initoha and t he Territories aiii I Ivist . ;i ■")■_".•'_'. From where did you come originally.' Fifty miles from Toronto, in 1 lie County of York. ;!.")L".l.'i. What is your opinion of the jirohiliitory system in the .North-west Tei i i toiies .' So far as I know, I do not think it was successful. •'i.IlMH. ('i)uld li(|Uor h;; ol)tuined for heveraj^e purposes? Yes. '■S'ylS)'.\. I'rom what you have seen, do you think a jjeneral jirohihitory law could li.' eliectually enforced over the country as a wliole .' No. .■5r)ii!)('). In casi^ of the enactineiit (if 11 ;;eneral proliiliitory l.-iw, doyou think it wnuM be rij;lit that compensation should he made to l)rew<'rs and ilistillers for their loss 't plant? — .Most decidedly I do. .■5r)i'07. Take the proliihittirv law as it was, and the licenst' law as it is, have you noticed any ditlerence in the condition of artairs in the comnuinity .' - J know very litii'! about it so far as that is concerned, but f do not notice^ any difl'erence. f havi! seen .1 great deal more drinking under license than before ; but I very seldom go (jut at nighr, or go into the iiotels. ^ A. liowE.v Pehuy. 272 TfT!^ 'li 67 Victoria. il Itiw iiiini>li Sessional Papern (No. 21.) A. 1894 I I .■(."ilJKS. Ill till- iiiiirMf lit' yiiiii' li'iixi^ls tlii'iiu;;li tliK 'riTriliii'ii-s, liiiM- ymi t'ciiiiiil llio |«'((|ii<' iiiiikiii'4 iisf I tf III I III II' fill' lic\fraj{t' |iiir|iiist'H ! Very iinicli xi< sjM'ciiilly in MiiiitliiTii Miiiiitoliii iiiid iinii' Miii'l I anil Li'tliliriil;;i'. .S.'rJ'.t'.t. XN'liui \Mis ihc cluiraiiiT lit' tlir lii|iiiir ! N'rry Imii. .■|."i:t()(t. \\\' liiiM' lii'i'ii t.iilil lli.it. till- |ii'i>|ili' tiscil |iitiii killiT ami I'liii ill' Ciilii^iii-. hill you kiiiiw lit' siii-ii iirtii-li's iii'in;; iiscil .' I kiuiw vi'ry lillli'aliDut tlicin. I Iiiim- situ |iaiii killiT usod hi'mm'iiI tiiiirs, iiiiil I havf known mu' ciimi' of a man ili'inkini; ml ink t'or till- uli'oliiil in it. % /.'.■(•. /)/. M,l.r„d: .'l.'i.'lt)!, hill vnii oMT know aiiv ort it" tiny liad llir lilii'ily to u.si" otlirr stiiiiulaiils, or only it' t't'i'liny llial tliey iiui-.i lia\i' soinrtliini,' to i;ra- lit'y a di'sirn wliicli tlii-y could not ri-si.st : and do you not think thai it would mdv li' till' hardi'iii'd drinkrrs who would ri'sorl to sui'li liijuid- ' 'I'lii' \\\nv who drank red ink was only iJ.'i years old, hut I do not know how Imiy lu' had dnmk. .'ir).''i(l.'!. ^'(111 ha\f .said that you aii' a iiii-rrhant and iiianai;i'r of the Western M illii;^ Co.' Yes. '.\'i'My.\ti What lines of liusiness does the eoiii|ian\ I ■.•Illy on .' They lia\e a mill. They hiiy ^'laiii, and liiey !i;!'.e a, wholcsalu liijuor estaiiliMhiiieiit in l{e;iina. .filHij.; ^f^|)( »NAIil>. The inoeei'diims and the sittiii:;s of the {'oininisNJoii will lie adjourned until l"'iiday iiiorniiii; at Ml n'eloek. The reason for t he ailjouriiiuent is to eiuihle the ('oiniuisaioi.ers tu ;;o to I'riiice Alhert without delay, and to take ad\iinta;;e of the train a iiij^t'iiieiils hy whieh they will lie altle to return on Fi'iday. Tliu ('onunissioii udjourned. I ollow- ll. I Xl'l ell I w.i~ uries iiii'l ill iii. I'sl Tel ! 1 eould '"■ k it wmil'l ir loss "I have y.'U k-ery liii> (• seen :i I at iii-''' 21_18+* 273 !■ Ill* Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. PHINCK ALHKKT. N.W.T., \<.vpmh.-r .i, ISO'J. Tlif Koviil Cdiiunissiun mi the Li(|Uur Trattif met here tliis day. /'rtseut : •It iHiK McDowMi. Kkv. Dh. MrLKOD. Ji iicK MrDOXALD, in oiieniiij; tlic procecdiiijifs, said: The Coiiiinissioiiers will at once jifDi't-ed t<> take evidence in aceoi-danee with the terms ot' Hei- Majesty's commission, t'olliiwin;; the practie;' adopted in other places (tf hearing utHcials Hi'st, and afterwards otlier witnesses. SAMUKL.IAMKS DONALDSON, Mayor of Prince Albert, on hein-; duly sworn, depo.sed as follows ; — Hi/ Jiii/i/r MrDimii/i/ : ;>"!304. What is your business or occupation .' I am a livt^ry stahle keeper. ;}"),•<(}."). How loiitt have you resided in Prince AUiert '. 1 have been here since IS87 on ai.d oH'. 35.'{0(>. Do you come here fi'om one of the otherproviucest -I came herefrom Ontario. So.'Wy. From what pai't of Ontario .' -l came from CJarletoti Place, near Ottawa. :{.").'{0i'^. That is in the County of Lanark, I believe ', — Yes. .'i.-i.'W.t. During your residence in the North-west Territories, have y(ju been in Prince Albert all the time f -No ; I have been at C^u'Appelle, Pattleford and Port Pelly, .■ieutenant-0N.\M)H()\, 274 I ''I' 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 1SS7 lis rt" HM'iod '. •iiiir I known US(i ot cidusly es; liut lit til" l)t»riiiii-- lie niiin .'?r).'il9. Fii svluit (ithef ways was it hrouj];ht in ?--Piirtit's smu^tf^linji li<|Uiir at t!i:it tinit' -.vnuid take teams and j;<> down to lirandon or Portage la Pt iifie, and hrini; lii^uor aiToss the country, and run the chance of getting it in. .'Sri.'ViO. Without having the pi'etence of a permit f f ha I heen at (^u'ApjH'lle when a man overtook me with Hve ten gallon kegs of alcohol. :?.").'il.M. Did you find in those days that the ii(iuor snniggled ,'u was generally sjiirit.s, oi- was it ale?--(ienerally sj)irits, of the very strongest kin."52.'?. Mad you any experience hei'e of ii(|uor lieing brought in in [)ackages of sugar and Hour/ — I have heard of that, hut have never known of it myself. •Sr).'?!!!. Have you lia(l any e.xperience in this country of other articles being used instead of liquor. We have had evidence that in some sections pain-killer and eau de Cologne were used? — Yes ; I have seen them used fre.ricntly. 'M)'\2^). Were they diluted or taken as tliey we?.' i-eceived ! \t all depended uixin the condition of the man who was going to take it. whether he was on a heavy spree oi- just beginning it. :?5;i2G. We iiave been told that under the permit system when a man got a permit for Hquor jind the liijuor arrived, he would call his friends t(^gether, and there would be a period of exceedingly iuvivy drinking while the licjuor held out ? -Y'^es ; I have seen that too. •■i.").'5L'7. Did the .same state of things of which you have spoken exist at Prince .Albert, Fort Pelly, and other pbices where you have been : were the conditions thi'cpugh- oiU the districts similar? -Yes, about the same. ^{•j.'Jl'S. Then the condition did not depend on locality ? No. .'io.SL'il. On 1st May last, a license system came into force, we undei-stand ? — Yes. •Sa.S.'JO. Were you ^[ayor ot the municipality at that time?- -Yes. .'{o.S.'il. What has been the working of the license law since it came into force ; has it been advantageous or otherwise? — My o]>inion of the license .system at jiresent is, that it is a little ahead of the permit .system, that is of tiie winding up time of the old per- iiiil system. .'i •").'{. '52. It has been suggested tliat one reason why there was an increa.se in the nuiiil)er of permits granted, v. as the fact that such large (|uantities of li<|Uor were being .snniggled from the (Inited States. a!id it svas thought expedient that those liiiuor's should be brought in lawfully under a ,. 'rr,iit system'/ Kxactly. .'i-'i."}."};}. Do you know whether the increase in the number .-).'t.'iS. Ha\'e you considered the i|uestion, whether, in ca.se of tlie tuiaetment of a |iriiliibitiiry law. a law ]>rohibitin;; the manufacture, impoi-tation and saleiif intoxicating li'|iinis for beverage pur|)oses in the Doiuiniin, renuineiation should be made to l)rewers inul distillers for loss of plant and niachinei'y / 1 have not gi\fn the matter any con- siili'ration whatever; however, I imagines they should receive some rennin»;ration. •'!."».■{;{!). Have you had any experience? of the working of a prohibitoi-y law anywhere I'lse llnin in the North-west Territories ?-N'o. •i'lHIO. Have you had any experience (jf :\ liigh license system? No. % Ii<'r. Dr. Mr Lead: •'•"I'iH. There have been three systems in the Territories: prohibition, with the I'niy exercise of X\w peimit system ; then the four per cent l)eer system, and now the lircnse system. From your observation, which do you think was the best of the three / I think ! would as mow have the license system its any of them, fron) tin' way it is ^'nkinj; now. ' i I •Jl — I8i** 275 m Liquor Trtittic — Nortli-west Tei ritories. .'151}4:i. Did you find tli.it pi'uliihitiiiii, when pei-niits were issiu'd judiciously, did iiiiy good ?- -Yes, I tliinlc it r);{4:i. ||ii\e you ol)served wlietlier tiie license system as it is iiere iiiis incieased or diminished (h'inielie\e that the license system is increHsin<; the drinkinir in the rural districts. •■5-")."ilt. Has it no etfect in the town I tl link not. wi that wav. ."i.'i.'il."). How manv licenses do vou siiv are is--ued altiniether ? < )ne ictail and two wholesah lir)."ii((. I )o vou know whether t lere is an\ ill icit sale ni tlie town .None to mv ki iowlt'ily'( I do not helieve there is anv whatever. • iri^ll". 1 )() you know whether the licensees ol)ser\c the pi'o\isions of the li•_'. So it did not make much diilerence wluither few or many permits wen anted!- it made a iliflerence no doubt, but there were more j pie to drink tin [U. tliat was the dinerenci tl( :{.■). "J.");!. The returns show that there was a ifieat increase in the (|u.iiititv of liipioi permitted to come into the Territories between ISf^.') and ISDO. in 1 SS:{, al)out (),U(JO jrallons were permitted and in ISUO, ir(:i,()0() y;allons. There could not ha\e been that ratio of incicase in po|iuIatioii, about twenty-live times as many ? No. 'Mi'.\i}-i. Do yiai think the indiscriminate issue of pe-mits caused a lai\i,'e ini'rease of drunkemie.ss / No doui)t there must ha\ e been some ii crease. lioll,")"). You tiiink there was smugj;linii; .iioinii' on. Was there much of that during; later years ?-^i do n((t think so much smu^'glin;. in later yeiir,s was carried on, for indi- \iduals could then briiiu' it in by permit. .Sr)."?.")!). The issuinj; of permits made it unnecessary to smuggle, I suppose /- Yes. .'{"j.'iaT. How lont>(l ii-^ follows : Ji// •hiilyi- Mr DdiKilil : .■5-").">()4. Mow ionu' liii\<' \oii resided in the Tenilories .' Al)oul tliree veins ;iiid alwdf. .■$").'!(>."). Ha\t' you n-sided all that lime in I'liine All)eit .' ^'es. •• .'!.").'!(■)(). Iiefol'e ('((niinu: liel'e, I l)elie\('yoU lived ill < )iitaiio ? ^'es, in Kingston. ',\7)'M\' . Tlieic was a lieense systesii in force tlieii' .' ^'es. ■So.'idS. Was tlie )iennit system in \ogiie wlien voii came lieie .' Yes. .'in.'Ui'.). We undei'stand that the pfohihitoi-v law was fejiealed ii> .Ma\, and that a license law fcjilaced it .' ^'es. .'{"jliyO. Take tiie coinnninitx since vou came here, iiaxc \(iii noticed any chanL';e in the social custom.s of the |ieo))le, of ate they aitoiit the same in rej^ai'd to tiie use of into.xicatini^' lie\ei'ai;-es ? -While 1 cannot say I ha\e noticed \ eiy much chanj,'o heic, theic has heeii a little, of i-ouise. \\'hen the license law came into force there was a tem|itation to try thoir new prisilejfe at that time, hut I do not think it kept up. ;{-''i.'m 1. 1 >o you tind this a law al)i(lin. liad you any e.Kpeiieiu-e of the working of the permit system! Yes; almost the same experience. althoui;h perhaps not so familiar with thi' system, as tiie last witness. 1 corn (borate what he has said about permits Ijeiiii; ajiplied for in the names of jiersoiis who ncN or obtained them. (>f course, I only know this by hearsay, but it is a matter of common report that se\eral persons in town were in the lialiit of sendiin,' to the Ijieutenantt !o\crrior for permits in the name of certain individuals. In the early history oi' the country, when the settlers were few and more easily known by the Lieii- leniint-(>o\»'rnor or those about him, the ]permil .system was exercised wisely and dis- cretion could be used in issuini;- permits. .Vs the population increased .■ind more stran<;er.s came into the country, persons of whom the Lieutenant-(!overnor knew nothiii<,f, and of whom the persons about him kni'w nothing:, the information obtained Would not alwa\s be accurate, and frei|ueiitly. no doubt, permits were niven to those who were really dealers in li(|Uor, (hat is, selling:- contrary to law, because there was no power to sell under the permit system. Persons, no doubt, ;,'ot permits in their own names and sold the li(|uor. I know of two permits beiiii;' apjilied for by )iersons whose ]irincipal business it was to sell li(|uor. and foi a loiiij time I did not know liow they not it. .■(■"'i.'i7ti. Would the ii(|Uor be sold openly at the i)ar, oii|uielly .' There was i pen sale in this town. In one place there was ojien sale, but it never became what \(iu would I'all open sale in Prince .Vlbert that 1 am aware of. There was a yood deal sold, however, I believe, before the license svstem cami' into force. ,"i."i.'l77. Then we iMiderstand. that owinf; to some decision i;i\cn it was held that, tliough the individual in who.se favour the permit was ;;-raiited bought the lii|Uor. yet if it Were afterwards found to be in the possession of .'tnother party, it was covered l)y permit .' 'N'es, tiiat \va,s tiie decision of .luflj;e Houleati. Tliat di'cisioii was tfiveii accord- iiiu to the strict wordini; of the section, which was afterwards amended. .'i.').'t7i*'. Do you think that uniler the present system piivate individuals caller. I tli> not know how true tliat is. I tliink, liowever, there is soir.e trutli in the stiiteinent that a man invited his fi-ieiuls, or they invitetl tlieniselve.s, and they would (hink till tlie lii|Uor was eonsunied. The permit usually covered two ^'(iHons. ;ir).'{7i). Did the permit distinj,'uish the kind of licpior ? -It always distinguished it. There was more hi'andy Wrought in than anything else, except hy the better class, who wanted wine : it was usually brandy or alcohol, on which, of course, the freight was less : l)randy was .")0 cents a gallon, and of course it was desirable to get the strongest kind of li(|uor. ^ .SoUSO. Do you know whether adultei'ation was comjilained of incases where li(|Uor was sold / I ha\e reason to believe that the litpior sold was adulterated, from the eil'ect it luul on persons who drank it ; of course, I refer to the after eft'ects. .■.'{8;$. iJo you know anything of the state of things on the s»>uthern boundary? — No. .■t.").'{84. Have you consiclered the <|uestion of granting remuneration to brewers and distillei's for their loss of plant, in ease of the enactment of a general prohibitory law '! That (luestion is of mort; importance in other jiarts of the country than in the Tei'ri- tories, for the reason that the law had |irohil)ite(l a license being given to conduct manu- facturing here. I'ntil last May there was no right to establish a brewery or distilleiy in the Territories. There was what were called lioji-breweries ; there are one or two liere. but they are not of much account. .■(.538."). What kind of beer was pi'oduced ? It was not very go<)d : it was called hop beer, and probably contained two oi' three per ctMit of alcohol. .■5.").'J8(i. tSo did the four per cent ? — No. that was always imported. Hoji beer is a very weak product. As an abstract proposition, I think that where the law enacts that a business should be wip(>d out, jtroviding it is a lawful business at the time, the people engaged in it have some claim to be renumerated, especially in view of a sudden change in the law which has thrown that man's pi'operty and himself out of a sphere of usefulness for the time being. ."5.5387. Do you think in such a case that compen.sation should be made for the plant and machinery that would neciessarily be reufiei-ed useless? -I do not think that I am able to express an o|)inion on that subject. I think that a very strong argument might Ije put for-ward iir behalf of such a change being made : but, ther-e ar'e ver-ystr'ong reasons to l)e ur'g»'d against it on the other side. .3r)388. As a jurist arrd as one who has had long exper'ience in law, w hat, in your' judg- ment, is th(^ effect on the coii-science of a community of having a law on the statute-book which is tlagnintly and jH'rvsistontly violated? — My experience has been irror'e outside of the Territories than here in this r'egar-d. Of cour'se, ther-e is nothing here to contr-adict my impression, stated elsewhere : it is, that wher-e ther'e is a law that is notenfor'ced the people get inttt the habit of bi'caking that law, and the\- have a tendency to br-eak other laws, particularly wiih regai-d to truth in th(! witness box. 35389. .Speaking of that point, have you had any expei'ience in regar'd to the mat- ter' of evidence? Ver'v little, F have had only four or five cases. .■{r);Ji)0. It has been stated that in a gener-al pr'ohibitor'y law. rrror-e than any other- law. piM'jur-y exists in the courts wherr atterrrpts ar'e made to tMrfor'ce it. It is said the lack of merrrory in r'cgar-d to tirrre, place arrd circirrrrstances is such that people cannot come to any other corrclusion tlrarr that irrterrtiorr.il perjur'v is eorrrrrritted by wittresses / — -1 think iiry irrrj)i'ession her-e, so far- as it has gorre and lirrrited to a few cases, and my expei'ience in prosecuting cases irr Ontar'io was of a like cirai'acter, is that in the pi'osecu- tion of liquoi' ca-ses you never can r'ely on orre witrress in a huiulre,■{',) I. Kin;;ston l>eiii.i; so ncai'. of coiiiv**'. |it'o|ilt' could ifct lii|iiiir .' Tlic coniintMit I would make on that point is, that in the county it did not ;;et a fair rhani'i' tooiitrate, hi'causc jHjoplc could huy five yallonsof lii|uoi' in the city, of men coulil cai-ry it hontcin their skins. ;5r)l{ltr). Are there any suj{j,'estions you could make to the Connni>sion in rcirard to tiic anienduKMit of *he law at jiresent in force here or elsewhere in i-ei,'ard to this ipies tion as a wh(»lef N'). I may say that from what experience I have had, I am in favour of a license law. While I should he very ^lad to have ahsolwte prohihition, if such a law could he enforced, my im)>ressions are that it would lie incapahle of (Miforcement. This keen appetite cannot he contr'olled. And in my view the )iresent system is a \pry .i,oo(l one. It has lieen culled fi'oni the experience of prohihitory and other laws, and in fact has heen made l>v the Lef^i.slature and hy the ijcntleinen who drafted it as I'rticif^nt as jjossihle. Incich'ntall}' I found .some advantaf;e in the system the other day. .\ jUM'.son in whom I am interested is in the iiahit of drinkinit liipior, and I warned the dealer not to j^ive it to that person or allow him to ijet drink on tiie premises. The dealer assented at once. Had this l)een an illicit plai'e I could not ha\c had control, hut ill view of ohtaiinnj; a license the dealorfound it advisahle to stoji sellin'g liipior to that |iarty. That result could not have been easily obtaiiii-d under any irrej;ular sy.;t(Mn. l''oi that reason I think the license system in force at present — and if there is any defect in it, it ini<;ht he remedied is a letter system for the Territtiries, and it should he strongly enfoi'ced, Anotlier remark I desire to make know n is, that in my opinion most of the criminal cases in the Territories, or a very small pei'centaife of the cases liiat come hofore nie, are traceable exclusively to the use of liipior. ( >f all the criminal iM-^cs I have tried, only two that I recollect were the outcome of excessive use of li(]uor, iind one of those, in which death occurred, was a case of murder, the veiflict rendered heiiii; manslaufihter, and it arose out of the prohibition system, I think. The place uliere tiie man yot his liipioi' was a little ''shack " out of the towi, wliei-e the peojile manufactured it illicitly —a foul mixture it was said to bi' by those who tasted it— Mild the man was moi-e or less mad from the use of it. He was not a native of the place but was a cow-boy fi'om the States. They wfrt^ all more or less under the iiitlu- riice of liipior. and it was home-made whisky they wei-e usinj,'. The other case was not under the license system, l)Ut occurred just iiefore the present .system came into force, and T do not know whether it was illicit liipior that was obtained or not. at all events il was there. Those are (he only two ciuses out of 10 or .">(> that have came iiefore me, ill which r could trace that the crime.s were at all due to the u.se of intoxi(;atin.!.' litpiors. By Rev. Dr. JfrLeod: ."{."i.'^lXi. Have you noticed that of the cast's which have come uiidciyoiir obsei'\ation me were tivicoable tti the excessive u.se of intoxicatin;; liipior, and that the liipior trade the liquor habit lias been an element in the disorder that has resulted in those cases ? No. ."i.").'i!)7. Speakinii of the cases in which li(pior was illicit : wduld dilVerence if the licpior had been sold lei.(ally ?— When I spoke of the I referred rather to its manufacture. I should think that licpior manufactured in distil- leries, where it is pi-operly i-ectitied, would not produce as in jurious results as coiMpounds made by a man with a few feet of lead pipe and some barley. That is all the machi- iii'iy th(! man had for the manufacture of liipioi'. Where proper rectifyins.' niacliinery is used, it is obvious that the liipior pro(hicetl must be of a less irritatiiii; character than iMii possibly be made without proper apparatus. .■i."i."il)(S. And that liipior resulted in the crime to which ymi have referred? Ves. •'<."i."?i)!t. Do you desire us to uiiderstaiul that those ci'imes were directly traceable to tlic prohibition of the sale of li(|Uor? I can hardly say that, but the impression made "11 niy mind was. that if there had not been illicit sale lioiiiji on. that man would not liave lust ids life, •'1541)0, Have you observed that where the liipior trade is leitali/ed, drinkini; pre- vails and leads to crime? No. 219 Mil 111 It have made any liipior iieiiii; illicit. V| Liquor Truttic — Noitli-vvest Teiritoiies. k. i .■>.") tOl. |)i( vtiii<; a J-[alt'- l>ree(l. The uthrr was last s|iiirij;. '.\i)i{)'2. So iMtth cases were si ni-f the adoption of tin' t'ouf jicr cent licci' system ?--- Yes, hoth wei'c siin-c tlicii. :5ri40-S. I tliiiik you have rcfci-ied to tlic t'oiir )>ci- cent liccf. Did the l)ccf always contain t'oiif pet- cent or soinetliiiif,' more .' TIiciv was an iminx^ssion al)foad lliat some of tlie li(|Uor wliicli contained, oi' was supposed to contain onlv, t'ouf pcf cent ot' alcohol, was a good deal sti'onfief. I er cent heer was such that people did ;iol care to drink it. Ff stronger licpior was allowed to conie in that way, if the suspicion was true, it of course increased tlie use of liipior. .'55406. You have said that permits were issued for donieslic use? That was what was intended. .■}.")K)7. I'erniits were not ^'ranted for the four per c<>nt l)eer for domestic use, Iji't for sah", I understanil '.- -Yes. it was for- sale : and it had this condititin, tha' ]KM'son Inly- ing it had to consume it on the jirendses aiui could not take any home with him. That is, of course, coi trary to the theory "t" most teniperaiiee people, wiio see a temptation in that kind of driidving. The four jiercent law, in fac-t, recpiiied it to he tippled. .Sr)4()S. J)o you think the license .system, .'^o far as your <'xperience has gone for the short tinu' it had lieen enforced, i> satisfactory .' Yt s, except in tiie rural districts, as Mr. Donaldsor. stated. I liear that there has heen a great increase in the (pianlity of liquor sold in the country since the license law has cc>me into force. .i.")40!l. Would you think that any athantage.' Xo : ni\ ol)ser\alion, howexer, is more in regard to the town. .'{■"itlO. ])o you think that this disadxantage in the rinul (list icts may he compen- .sated hy any adxantage, real or imaginary, in the town .' Yes, because I think the evil in the country is owing to the law not being enforced. The license law increases faci- lities for getting li(iuor in the country districts, and T repeat that, from wliat I hear, there has l)een a considerable increase in the consumption. It is a matter of opinion whether that evil is greater than any adxantage derived in the town. .■>.") HI. Imoid your knowledge of the country, and remcmliering that it is sparsely settled, do you think the license law can lie easily regulated in the rural ilistricts / — No. They find the license system has the sanu' ditKculties to contend with as the proiiibitory system, although the temptation is greater to evade a prohibitory law than a license law. The man who gets a license ha.s a greater reason to (il)ser\t' its pro\ isions than not to incss. I think where thci'c is ahsulute |iri>liiliiti()u the temptation is very ^reat and tile law will nut only he hrcken liut jicojile will synipathi/c with those who sell and luevent thcTu hein;^ convicted. .■ir)H7. l)oes that not also apply to the trade when lej,'alized ; or are tlicre no attempts at illicit sales when licenses are j,'ranted. We have 1 n totd that li(|Uor was sold at from L'o cents to oO cents a ;;la.ss in early days, whatever kind of liipior it mii;ht lie.' -Fn'ter the license system the profits are not so ureat, and the illicit dealer cannot I liarye more than tiiose who sell iindei' license. .'^•")H">41',l. Was (lilliculty expcrieiu'cd jfcnerally in re;;ai-d to licensed places ,' ^'cs. ;i")4:i<). Was the perjury connnitted in cases of prosecution for \'iolation of the license law '.--'So. in hotli clas.scs. I do not think then' was very much ditVer-encc. •'i'lllil. .So it was not where there was ahsolulc prohihition or partial prohiliition ' Nis not in reyai-d to prohibition. •'>-")Il'"_'. Is it not a fact that the unwillinifness of the witnesses to tell all the truth arises hecau.se they are "generally parties to the oHence .' Yes. I have known a whole Township Council sunmioned and .m eHort made to secure conviction : and tliouj;li 'Viiyliody in the place knew they <{ot liipior at the hou.se in ipiestion, yet they .ill iiiaiiaired to e\ade the i|Uestions and to ^Inc some explanation, so as to lea\'e douht a.s to wild was sellinjj' and what was sold. •(•"•i^.'?. You mean that all the jiarties in the Council u'ot drink at the time .' Y'es, !ill on that flay. They were all in that house drinkinj; ; and e\eryl)ody knew that some 'if them not drink. '■'t'2\-\. Was that a case under the license system .' — Yes ; liut it was aL'ain>l a l>ei'- -'•u who had not a license. •">•") 41'."). Then it was a violation of tlic law hv an illicit seller '. Yes. •■!")4"_'")4l!S. J)o you think the lejjali/.ation of the trade in the couununity will prove a iiieiiace to those people W'\o ha\ e heen rescued .' — T am inclined to think it may he. They will he ahle t<» j;et liipior more easily now. l*'ormerly they would have had to ask tnr a permit, and the litpior would lia\e to he hrouitht in hy failway, and of cours(> they '"iild ^et it more e.isily now. • >">42'.t. Have you any means of knowint; what is the feelinu throuj;hout your dis- iii.t in regard to proiiihitioii ? ] have no means of knowinj;, e.xcejit what oiu- hears in L'ltivcrsation. There was a good deal 'i t."!(l. Do you think a jileliiscite would show that.' I have not much faith in I'li'liiscites. •">-'"i4-"il . We have known (jf people coming to the Territories because iirohiliitiun was 111 force here and becaus( they wcjuld not be able toobtain lifpior ! Several persons have '"111 lue that they have come here for that reason. ;i-'>4.ll.'. Is it fair in that c;ise to ha\e jirohibition relaxed step by step until a license >\steui is substituted .' I do not think it has made very much ditl'erence to any man who ^\ anted to get liijUor. .'!;")4.S;5. Have you thought of the matter in this way, whether the so-called pr(v Hihition in the North-west Territories was a prohibition system at all, or simply iv 281 ii ! P rw» iiiV i;- Liquor Tiaftic — North-west Torritoiies. licfiist' syhlciii. (■i)iniiimi(l)'(l ))y uni' [ifrsoii, who oxtTciscd it witlmiit any (lisrretioii ? — It uiis |>ri>liil>itii>ii ti'in|)('rr(l liy tin- |M'nnit systtMii. .i.'il-'U. Diiydti think tlicri' would have Itct-n leiw dissatist'iiftioii if iicrniits luid hfen issut'd judiciously? Yes. .■J.')!.}"). You tiiivt^ statcii, I think, that prohibition was iinpracticalilel—Y't's, I think so. In II country like this, it led pcojilo into nuinufactui'in<; liijuoi- Iutc. I know «t'iiad stroll;; suspicion of this Ix'inj^ dont' in I'lincc AlWort. I know two private stills were discoxcrrd hy the Inland Hcvcnuc ofliccrs. .■!r)l.'!(i. You think such a law inqu'Rctieahle iM'causc its pi-oxisions arc \ iolatt'd ,'— Yes. 'M')^'->~. l)oyou think the lii cnsc law inipracticahle for the same reason ?— I tlunk it will lie violated : hut there will not he the .sanu' teni|>tation to inanufactui-e in private stills. ."{ot.'JS. Is that hei'ause the pcojilc are allowed their lii|Uoi's { Yes. .■Jo l."{!*. As to the principle of prohiliition : do you heliex-.' that if ])rohil)ition was fairly well enforced it would he heneticial ! That is my view. I would he ipiite willini; to foi'!';,'o li(|uor if it would henetit all the peo})le, because I believe that their health would be better without it, althouyh that is lieve .' — Yes, perhajis both. .■l.")IH. < )f course, the prohiliition I mean exempts liipior for medical purposes? — As it should. .■?r)442. It is only prohibition as i'e<;ards the u.se of alcoholic li(pior for beveraj^'e purposes? — I think tjjere cannot be two (juestions alwut it, that any one seriously hxik- in;; at the matt(>r of prohibition, with that jirovi.so re^ardin^ the u.se of liipior foi' medi- cal and sacramental jairpose.s, would come to the conclusion that it was pref(M'able. .liij Jiidiff MrDiinald : .■{r)44."{. [f it could be enforced? — Yes. Ihl R,r. Dr. M. Have you had experience in Maine? — Yes. My experience was that I could itet all the li(pior I wanted in Maine. The subject had been discussed in Kingston, before I went to ( )ld ( )ri'hai'd ISeach one sunnner. A nundier of friends vveie discuss in;; it, and it was ui-,i,'eil that you could not <;et licpior uidess you wei-e well known. Now we were not known at all, and we went round to three or four diflerent places and pit all the liipjor we wanted, from bi'andy down. \Ve were strangers, and it was not because we were well known to the proprietoi-s. Hut that experience was confined to Old Orchaiil Heach and Portland. .■<.")44(). I)o you think y<»ur expei'ience at Old Orchard IJeach anil Portland euable- you to express an opinion as to the condition of affairs in the State of Maine .'—No. I had, howevei', that expei'ience with respect to the law. Perhaps there were reasons wli\ P(»rtl'ind should be .so, because it is a seaport town. ;jr)447. I suppo.se you do not think it necessary that all the provisions of the la« should be observed or absolutely enforced ? - No, because 1 never know any law that could be absolutely enforced. There is the law against murrs, liowevei', seem to have a diU'eriMit elleet nn jieisoris fnmi Mfdiiwiry li<[Uoi's ; it seems t(i make tliein sick, and the etVeets remain fur days. lijf Jiidijf Mr Ihmiilil : .■{5450. It has heeii sui,'},'esled tliat the increase in tiie numlier uf jiermits issued was ciiised hy the tact of so miicli lit|Uoi's of had i|uality heiiig simigj^led into the country. Have you any knowledj,'!' of tiuit fact .' No; I do not know what i-ea.son caused tlie l'!xecuti\(' to clianire the ])ermit system. .'i"))."'!. Actiuj,' on ordinary principli^s, 1 su|i])ose it was done from some motive for the [lulihe v\»'al .'~-l liiink so. .■l.')4 •")•_'. You liave e.xpre.ssed your opinion of a ])leliiseite. 1 siippoHe you prefer the old fashioned IJritisii system of rejiresentatives of tlie people dealinj; with th«'se (|ues tions / T tliink so. .'i.-jl ;").•{. lias the o))inionof llie people of the North-west Territories Ix-en crystalli/eil in the law in force at the ]iresent time/ That is a very ditheult ipiestion to answer, i (jo not think that at t!ie last election tins ipu-stioi) was made one of tlie issues in the election of memhei's, althou;,'h prohahly it ouj^lit to have been. T cannot, however, sj)e,ik as to that. It V as known before the last election that an attempt would l)e made to lia\e a license law passed, and that mijiht have had some eU'ect in the election of mem- licrs to the Le^'islalure in some |ilaees. •'i'll") 4. .So a Legislature fresh from the people pass(Hi sueh a law .' Yi's, w hatevei' inferenee may he drawn from that fact. I am undtjr the opinior. from wiiat I iiave heard, that nearly e\ cry nieudn'r of the Lej,'islature was in favour of some form of a li(|U(H' license law, with the exception of a couple of nxMnhers. One other remark, somewhat corrohoratinj; what .Mr. Donaldson has said. I think under a license system tht re is greater opportunity for the sale of li^'ht wines and heers leplaeinf,' the stronj,' li(Hiors that were foi'ineriy smu<,'itled into the country. If it he an advantaj^e for the people to t). Did you come from the Pro\ineeiif Ontario.' 'N'cs : I came from Ontario III Manitoba. ■'•'•t.")?. Krom what section of < )ntario did you come? - From Ottawa. ■ i")l.")8. Was there a lieense law in force there in those days? ^'es. • >"ib"i'.l. How lonj; ha\e you been in the Territories? I has'e been here It) years. I rt.i^ ;iUii here in lf<7!l, which was iH-fore that time. ■ i'lMiC. When 3'ou eame h(>re, was the ])ermit system in force '. Yes. •">-''>K)l. Did you come here as a member of the North-west Mounted Police.' — Yes. ■i-">4()2. Ha.s a part of your duty been to see ti) the enforcement of the litpior law ill any respect, and if so in what way \ Yes, in seein<^ that parties do not laint; lifjuor ill illcLjally and also to prevent illicit sale. • i-''i4<).'5. .Sale to Indians ?— To Indians and everylxMJy. 888 i I' i 1 1 ; '; llU Liquor Tiuttic — North-west Territories. ."I'lKU. At iircsi'iit what arr your ilutics uihIit the new svstoin ,' Ai pn'sfiit iinilci IH' new .f till systfiii Wf liiiM- tn iiiil tlic IJcfiisc ( 'iiiinnisNJiiiiiM's to |irc\fiil anv iiit'i'iii;;i'iii<'iii iicsrnt \n\\ . 1 .■{"•Kir). Tlicii yciii lia\f still III I'lit'ciici' till' law ami Ici |ir('\ I'lil >ali' iMliaiis Yes, (•(■rtiiiiilx. ;t")lt>(). And to t I'V <"'isos (tf oU'ciiccs iiikIit llic |ir('M'iil la I'i'gai'iU liiiliai fact all iiitVartions ot' tlic law .' Yes. •'{•"iMiT. Ill what stH'lions nt' tlic Nurtli west 'riTiiloiics lia\i' ymi Immii ^lai ioiu'd tVuiii time til I iiiif .' At h'lirt Maclriid, l)i';;ina and Ihtc. In llmsi' dav^ tlir |iii|iiilat inn in that lii|ii<)r linuiiiht \: Have vim iifteii made sei/.iires .' -\i .'i-">l7l. Can Villi 'mnc the Cummissiuin iiiv kind uf an idi-a as lu what suri uf )packafies the lii|uiir was hruujiht in.' Where it was iiii|iiiiied frum the I'lnled Slate>. the |peu|)le did nut |iay miieh attention In the way in wliieli i le lii|nui' was |iaeked. If it wei-e smiiy;^le(l frum anutlier part uf uiir own emintry liy the railway, it wmild Im' iiiolosed in .some kind of paeka^'e. The ordinary way in the south was to stow it away ill bottles anion;; merchandise. The hottle trade was, of euiirse, the retail trad attii tl le liiiiior had lieen L'ot into the countrv. :ir)l7-">. Mill people carry liipiid ahoiif on their persuns and sell it.' 'I'liat has ii> (luiil)t lieen dune, but I only recollect one case of that sort that was tried liefure me. .\- .1 rule they did not I'arry it, about with them, but they lienerally placed it away wlnii thev could lav their hands on it when they wanted it. ilT'i. Take the lii|ii()r brou^dit in froii I our uwii cuiiiitrv l)\' railwa\-. AV heard uf tin cases made tu look like Uibles: what were there the methods a ( 1 do not know that til I have personally made sucii seizures, but 1 ha\e tried case s in w 1' ■rsuiis ha\ i)i it. Before il days of the regular cancellation of the permits, that is tfi say in the early ilay.s uf permit system, the permits were used over and uvei airaiii ; but this became itllciili ifter the regular caneellatiiin came intu upcratiuii, ami the permit was caiicelleil w ICll .luilN I'u'lTOX. 284 ¥ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ! \ llir li<|l|iil w;i-> tniiiiil on ihi' tr.'lill. It' iIk' |M'ii|i|i- roIlM ;,'ct it ititn till' 'I'lTlitiii it's witliiiiil till' |n'niiil Itfiiii; caiicclliMl, llicy cuiild nt' ciuiisc use it ayaiii. I dn imt -.av that ilir |ifM|)l(' liad H di'sin' totnadi' tlic law; Init. nn llic nthci' hand, a lai!.'c imiiiiIh-i' ot" |icu|)lt' wiiuM trv to ii\oid ha\ in;; llit-ir |l(■l■nlit^ cahi-rllcd, it' tliry I'oMld. it \^a^ a svsicni liv wliifli tlif |w"iniit was only t'nr a rcrlain li-nylli of tiuu'. ;i.'"t|Sl. |)oy()U lliink lliat was a |>oint wliicli was tifncially cnnriNliMl .' A man uii_'lil say tliai lie drank very liltli'. ami it' lie used tlii' |iciniil iliicc oi- t'oiif liini's, no liMi'ni woidd lie done. .">.">|S."i. What otiii'i' diUli'ulty iuiil yon to lonli'nd against .' l''roni llif |iolici' |ioiiit ■ it \ ii'w, under till' [it'iinit system wt- liad imt\ ditliculty to coniiiat, I'^^iieciallv i-emcin- Im rini; llli' class ot' men any prrniit sysii'in m- an alti'ni|it lo ciitoiic |iio|iiliii inn ciralcs. I It' coll ISC \M' liad to walcli I lie whisky I iadci> and I iv to tin si lalc I licir [ilatis. "iol'**ti. Ill tlic cases tried lii't'orc yon, did yon lind i he w iinoses iroiililed with ueakncss ot' memory ' I invarialiiy fonml it. .'(."ilSJ. \s to the lime and plai-e .' That was the siimc nearly all ilie limi'. ■'toh'SN. MaiJ yon reason to lielii'\e lliat their tcsiimony amonnt<'d to perjuiv in collie cases !-- \ liaM' iiol the sli;,'hesl doiilit liMt that il \sas |ierjuiv M'I'n ot'len. .iolS'.l. |)id yon find any part iciilar law under which ])erjury seemed to |)revail .' N'es. under the jiresent system. I ha\enot had enoui,di i-xpcrience uiiilcr the other system III lie ahlc to 1,'ive an o|iiniiiii. Iiecansellie license system has not lii'en sullicieinly lontj in ii|ieration. .'i.'ilDO. Well' ymi nii ilir iJriiisli C'oluinliia t'ronlieral all '. No. I lia\e ncM-r lieen u e^t ot' I'olt .Maclcod. ■ luHM. Djdyou ilnd that as the railway o|icned nji tluconiiliy, iiioii' |ico|i|e came in, and that li(|\ior came in more freely, and there was more dilliculty in lookini.' after the lii|Uor .' That H|ii)lied to the Canadian Pacific Itailway. It made no ditlerence \\liale\er ill I he southern part, near the international lioiindary. 'i") I'.Il'. While it may not haxc made any dill'erence in the ((iianl ity im|iorled, did ymi lind that less lii|Uor came in from the I'nileil States and more hy railway .' It was iln'ii lirouulit in fioin t wo dircction.s instead of one. ^i") I'J-'i. Then the railway had the elVect of i;iviii;,' a ino. You endeaxoui'cd to enforce the law, I supj)Ose, and with all the means at ymir disposal '! — Yes, e\ery eH'ort has lieen made hy the force to carry out the law. •'!•"> I'.MI. The present law, we understand, came into force on 1st .Sl.-iy last ? -'\'es. ")"||!I7. ruder it. what dilliculties Innc yoii experienced / Such a thin;; as -earchin;,' trains is practically done away with. We have had no dilliculty, aiul certainly no coiiiplainls have lieen made to the police of infractions of the law, and of course loiiiplaints Would lie made to them. I'p to this time the law has lieeii enforced. .'iol'.IS. What has heeii tin? ell'ect of the law on I iidians as re;,Mrds their L;rt I Iiil;- lii|Uor ,' — I lia\e Jiever myself seen an Indian under the inlluence of liipior in t his di■^t rict. I lia\(' tried one cii.se latterly of a llalf-lireed sujiplyin;; lii|Uor lo a sipiaw since the law ut there is always a • liuiuer in this way : the Indians have people related hoth hy lilood and connnon laii- :;uai;e, who have, nevertheless, a iit;ht to purchase liipior, and such a man can w.ilk up ■ ind liuy li(|Uor, and of course, unless a jioliceman is present, it may he liroui;ht away and yi\en to Indians. 80, of cour.se, the facilities for the Indian.s to hay litpior have hi'cn increased, and there is much ditliculty in that direction. I think in the case of the Indians there should he extra jirecautions taken to prevent them ohtainiiiij; li(|Uin', '"•cause while liipmr may make a white man jolly, it has very dill'erent effects on the Indian. ;'iol'.)li. You think it is po.ssil)le for him to ^^et drunk under the licen.se .system 1 — I 1' to this time we have not had that e.xperience of t)ie law, or at all events up to the lii^t day or so, wi' have not had any ditliculty- The vast majority of the Indians in this 285 ! I I' n I>ll i!^^ -).'; Ill Liquor Tniflic — Norfh-west Toiritories. l)tiiiti lii|U<)i'. If it nmis put uiidrr thi'ir imsrs, tlicy iiii^lit tiikf it. Iiiit tliry (lit 111(1 wisli it. Of «uiirs(' it is now nioif |ii(il)iil)lf timt the Indiims will ;,'<'l lii|iiiir tliiin it whs Ix'fore, l)ccaiiM> tlii-y «'<>iil(l not olitiiiii liijunr hy pfrniit iinilci' the |it'rniit ^ysicin, uihI tlic wliisky (it'iilcrs cci-tainly it the ordiiiiiiy li(|uoi- liioujfht in from tlic oilu'i- proviiicHH ? — B«'for«« thi- Ciiniidijin I'licilif Hiiilwiiy wits liiiilt, Idonotknow as if;,'iirils ilic tcriitoi'v noi-tii of the railway, hut in llu' southern part of tlic coiinlry. in tin' h'ort .MaclciKl rt'j,'ion, tin- whisky was always ciin^idfrtMl to lie very liiid. ;.")();<. Was any ales lirou;;lit in ! They would not he hrnUjL'ht in, as ti'anspoi'tatioii was very exj(enHive, and in tho winter it was iinpo.HsihIe to transport sueh li(|U()rs on aoeount ((f frost. ■■{r».">04. They are, at all ovents, h>'ou;;lit in more freely now .' I pi'esumeso, In-'eause a man can now ^o and IiuvhU'. //// h'rr. /),: Mrl.,„d: ;?;").")()."). |)id you notice that you had more dilUculty when the foui per cent heer caiiiH into forc(^/ "Xo. I do not think we had. There mijLflit ha\e heen at some points when there was a rush, hut f cannot e\cn say that : I do not think it made nnicii ditl'ei-ence. ,■{."),"(()(>. Then you think there was not mu<'h liiU'erence in the ijuaiitity hrou^ht in hefore or after tins introduction of tlu) four per cc^iit heer system ] No. .■{o.JOT. I notice in your report of |SS!t, you say : " 'Die i'(instriictii>n of tlic iiiiiiii line of tlic ('aiiinliaii I'acilic Kiiilway iirncccilcil i{iiii'tiy. iiiul tin tiitiil alisciiccof nil sci'iiiiis crime imtw itlistiunliii^; the sinlilcii iiitliix of tlioiisiiiiils of iiiiijk'Ii iiiivviis was ii'iiMi'kcil witli K.stiiiiislniiciK. This was a^'aiii am! ii;.;aiii limac tcstiiiKiiiy lo liy prnniiiicnt iiiin wild hail liiiil c\|)criciicc in iitlici' cniiiitrics. Kvcn with the cilirieiit pnlitt' .siirvcillaiicc iiiaiiitaiiuii. such happy icsulls coiilil not, I think, have conic alioiit hut for the prohihitoiy laws cxintiiin. That tlic.Mc laws were .sometiiiii'N Inoki'ii, c\fn in those ilays, is an unileiiiaMc fact. .Such, however, was the exception, not the rule." l)o you think that this coiulition, e\en with an etlicient police force, coiilil not have existed without a prohihitory law? — Yes. If all the workin;; parties had had the ri;;ht to hrinj; in li(|Uor and u.se it, the story of tlie c instruction of the Canadian Pac iti<' Railway would have heen exactly similar to the ' istory of the Northern I'acitir ami the Union PaciKc Railways. There would have hccn rows and murders of all kinds, I have no douht. 3r)r)08. You say in another para(.;raph of yi'i'i lejxirt ; " The larj^e iiiinilier of ajipeal inlscm that is, appeals irom nia^'ist rates to Siipi-eine Coiit'ts luis. I think, luoiiglit o\it many points worthy of eonsiileiation, with a view of liriiij;ii»^' aliout some ilesii alile aineiiclments in the .\cl. Take this point, for instance : one of the leanieil .liiil<,'es liefoi-e wlii>ii ajipeals were heanl holds that any o'.e lirini;iiig in lii|iioi- iiinlcr the Lientenuiit ( iovernor's |ieiiiiii may transfer such liipior to othei lesiilents of the 'I'enitories, who arc not theinseh cs in possession <>'. permits :, and fin-ther, that persons so ieceivin(4 liipior are not lialile to punishment liy tine or ini|iii soniMent. My List desire is to criticise in the slightest denrc'c the legality of such jadgment. I may. liov ever, add that if this is the cornet reading of the Act, it will hereafter eeitaiiily handicap ile poliee in their etl'orts to suppress illegal liipior tiatHc." Do you find ditticultv in rejjard to the lejiality of the judjiinents? — \'es. < in account of thtit jud;,'inent, it wa,s very ditlicult to prevent sale, and also to prove it. ^MoO'J. Prohahly this was never done. If there was a permit produced, anci if the (piaiitity of li(|Uor there did not exceed what was mentioned on the permit, you did imi endeavour to ascertain whether it was hrou^ht in illej^ally or not ? -Exactly so. .■{r).")10. !>o you a<;ree with Mr. lleid and his assistant, that they had to take extra precautions in or;ier the keep liquor away from the [ndians ? — [ think extra precautions .J'j:i>; Ootdn. 286 f)7 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 I nil I . iiml tilt liivvirs lent iiicii liutiiiiiol. I. 'I'liiil vt'f, was wkI llHil Jaiiiidiaii PiU'itir lUkiinl-, ll-tM ll^ls. iiiH' ilcsii lie wl •"s |«'iniii iSCS.sidll III III' iiii|>ii I im;i\. lifiip will liiivc In III' iiiiiiiitiiiiiril, mill rliis Iium hi-i'i, ilniif mi tlif ii'scrvcs in tlii> ilistijit. 'i'licy ill'l' \ isittHi llliill' t'li'i|UrMtiy, mill nt" i'iHII'nc Wr IlilM' III Wlllcll tlli'lll lllnli' Clirrtully, I'SJH'C iiillv lit tin- time lit' till" miiiuiii tri'iity piiyiiifiits. Of cnuisi', tliiTc is ilmi^tM'iit lliiif tiiiu-, tiir wlii'ii llii' liiiliaii lias iiiniii'y lie can llii-ii ;,'i't wliisky. | r>A\VI{KN<'K NVIM.iA.M IIKIU'll M Kit. ('.iimnissiiini-i nf ili.. N-niliwrst Mtiiitili-il JNiiicr, uii lii'iim iliily swurn, ili')iiisi'il as t'lillnwH : Ihl .liiihji Mr DiiiKilil : '.\'u)\\ . Iliiw liiiii; lwi\'i> yiiii I'esiiliMJ in till' Nmlli wrsi Ti'irilurics ,' ( Hit .'lo \cars. .'i."i."(| •_'. |)i(| Villi ciiiiir lici'r t'riiin mil' iif tlir lit lirr |iMi\ iiirrs '. I I'liliii- t'niiii KiiiLtstun, < Mitariii. .l.").") 1 :». Ill what yi'iir,' In tin- lattrr part of 1S7l'. Iiri.'d I. {''riini what |)lacf iliil ymi i>r;;inally runii' ? Kruiii williin unr mile uf the |iii'si'ni tiivvn of <>rnisliiwn in tlu' Slate of Now York. :l"i."i|."». What, systi'in .'.as in fnrri' tlirii' in i-i'u''ii'l !•' t hr iisr of iiiluxiraliiii; lii|iior .' Thi'v hull II lii'i'iisi' system in foi'ee mIh'Ii I eame III Maniiiiha. .■(").") 1 1). When iliii you eome inio ilie Territories |)ro|i(!r ( -I was iliioui,'li the Terr'i- tiiiies a Kiioil ileal tliou<{hout the years lS7.'{-4-">. U'lrilT. Wliiit system was then in foree !- No liniior was alloweil. The |ieiinil sVsleiii w;is inti'iiiliieeil liefore Mr. I^airil came into the Territories as (io\einor. .'i."i."i|S. So no lii|uoi' was allowed in the Territories.' t^iiite so. ."i."i."i 1 It. You were not, ! suiipose. lu'oin^'lit into eoiitael otlicially i it li a liei'iise law lii't'iiie the |ir('seiit law eame into foive f No. .■i."i."n'l). Tlu'ii there was a permit system .' Since the .Mounted I'ojice have come into the country. I know that no lii|Uiir siniii;;ilini; has lieen ^'oiiii; on. .i.")"r_M. When you first came into the Territories, what was your otiicial position? - I uMs one of the otlicers of the iioundary ('oiniiiission. •'!">")'_'l'. And what oHicial position did you hold suli.seipiently ? - i was connected with ilir Indian l)epurt iiient in lS7.'i. I remained there until ISSti, when I came to the Niil til west Mounted Police. .'(."i.'i'J.'i. While vou were connected with the Indian l)e|iai'tment, had xcii anvthiiig III ilip with keepini; lii|tior away from the Indians ; Yes, and I was a .Maj^'ist rale. .'I'l'iL* 1. Had you ditliciilty in doinj,' so .' I kept it down by watching; them. W't'^yl'y. I )id you find very many people williiii,' to sell to liiilians't -There were a unal luaiiv who would .sell to tl' in, to the Sioux. I lived at itirtle, and was (loNcrn- Ill aiient tiiere. f wa:' i-. the Iwiliit of \isitiii;,' Turtle Mountain and liraiidon, and in the Territories, Kort I'elly to the north and down to .Moose .Mouetain. ■ i"!')!.'!;. I )id you find that you had to exercise diliijence in order to iireseni the I |ile from lireaking the law ? f was kept travellinf^ the wiiole time. •i-"'-")'_'7. When you heeaine connected with the police force, of course vour duties wiTc more extensive? Yes. ■ I •"••") "J S. What dilHculties did you experience in keepinj; ii(|iior out .' I found that a Miv iari;e pro|)ortion of the population would evade the law if they could. :tr).")2it. ill what shape would they fiet the liipior in? In any sha|ie il-.ey could iiiaiiaiic it. They would try one iliMl<;e, and when we found that out they would iii\ent aunlhcr scheme. .'!.").").'tO. Can you tell the (./ommission what some of Miem were ? - A y;reat deal of lii|Hni came in liy means of small kegs inserted in casl.s of sii<,'ar or rice. || was con- -iitiied sometimes to the leadinjj peo|)le of the North-west Territories, to prominent Met liiidist ministers or to priests. No doubt thousands and thousands of gallons of lii|iiiir came in in that way, because we did not like to e.xamine ri'spectable people's ;;'iiiil-. hut we did so after a time, and we found, for instance, in the centre of one 287 I ' 'II 1 [I m' '. iJ- n |r--i- If Liquor Tmffic — Nortli-Avest Territories. liiiTcl i)t suijai' iir rice iisitjiii'il to ,1 divine ut liii;i( stiiiidini,' in tlic ccpuntrv'. a li\ Inn ki'ii of ali-i(lu>l, hijinily or snnic ntlicr •^tnini; li(|Unr. :(.■>-).■! I. Y liad reason to Niii)]i(>se liiat tins was l)eiiii; done as a tVaud U worth of litjui We found also that very stroiit; li(|Uor came in under the term of four ]ifr cent liecr o as -:in;,fer. .').-).").'!(). Speakinu of \-ernor was th" proper party to grant pi'rniits. .'{").").") i. Would V( i\e had an otlicer in eav'li loi/alitv to do so? The Lieutenant ( iovernor was not the proper one, bi'cause if three orfour re]iresentati\es signed a recniii- inendaticii for a permit to \h' granted to some parly, the tioNcrnor iiad to comply, for he could not get out of it. Lawkknce Wii.i.i.vm IIki«'1i,mi;h. 288 ■^TTj! I l)()ttlr' was ilif liii' in ill'' lliouuli' lliiii. |.xi'i'fi>'' 'i Irities ! - 111 lllink. ■uteiiiiii' ii rfciiiii- llv, t'lirli" 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'J.'i.'),'):.'. Till' pcopir \vlins(> sil<;ifi'sti()HS Wrvv .-iilnptt'd wci'i' sii|i|)i)S('(| tn rf|)ii'st lit lliti [iul)lic sfiitiiiuMit, I sii|iiM>s(> f ^ cs. tln'y wore siipposcil ti> do so. il.").").").'!. What i'X]H'ri('iu'«' liaxo you liad as I't'i^'ai'ds tlic woi'kiiii; ot' tlic in'w law .' -1 iliiiik llif law is a <;(>o(l law. it' it is pi-opcrly carfii'd mil. I do not tliink it is as stroiiLfly I'lit'oivcd as it sliniild he. .'!.")"».") 1. Ill wliat way do you iiu'aii ■' - NN'hilo some ut' the hott.'i.solM'y the law stiii'ily, I think there are others tiiat evade the law. I think some hotels elose the doors at the |iro])er time and some of the wholesale places do so : hut I also think a yreat maiiv of them do not. 'I'lir ijreatest fault of the lieense law is this, that while under the piTiiiit. system the lowest classes of men could not ,i,'i't li(|Uor, hecause theyi'oiild iiol^'et anyone to recommend them for a pei-mit, and therefore it wiis only l»y ;;ettiiii; it from people who sold it illegally that tiiev were alile to net it at all, now they are a hie to get all thev want, and they will he ready to act as informers in order to ohtain half the lines. The result is us i ha\e indicated. .(."i .").">.">. Tn your experience of the law, did you find iiiiu'li perjury comniitted hv those informei's? -I think tliere was a great lack of memory. ;(">.") .")('). W'ei'e they troiihled with xcry had ineiiu)rie.s '/ Persons who were Ncry rcliahle and trustworthy on otiier occasions would he W(>ak in their ti^siimouv. .'i.').")")". Are there any suggestions you can otl'er to the Commissioners with a \ iew 111 making the law more workable ? Yes. I think .ill hartendeis and people haiidliiiis lii|Ui)r should he licensed, as well as the regular lici'iisces. If a man is caught e\,idiiig ilic law, he should not lie allowed to he ein|iloycd in any other h.ir or drinking |ilacc in ilic couiiti'y. li.'i.'iriS. |)oyou think tiiat would he a step in the right direction.' \'es. 1 also lliiiik all the license :is t he desire nt' the peojile living in the iowns. .")."i.")ti.'!. What ahoiit ih). opinii.n of the people |i\iiig in the rural districts ' I lliink iliev larcd nothing about it that i-, I he impression I !ia\e always h,id. ;!.'").'")()+. In your re]iort of l.'^SS you said : " I loiisldrf tlml tlic li Mies (pf (!iir I mill .-clllcis. » liii, lieiiii; in tlii> iiiiijiiiMN. life !l,i- i lass in u liii-' lit lii|iiiir then sii|i|)lieil In Indians and the 'lUamiljes tlu'V have iililained siiire lliiU |i(ii'liiin iif the I'i'iiv jure was, as .I'liain |ii'ii|il,' ,-,il| ii. ' iiiiinc ipiiieii." ^ IS. I still think so. 289 i-v:! Pi'i 11: 1 I ()=!<=1- 'i m ■ ft Liquor TmlTlic — North-west Teriitories. .■>.').")()(). How would tluit iijiply to till' Norlli-wfst TeiTitorifs f I tliiiiktlic rndiiiiis m.w ;;t't inorc lii|iior tliaii tliey did Ix^t'ori' : I do not know tliat tliey d" so iifrc. I ani niakiii;t sonic inijuiry into tlic matter lieic, Imt I have reason to belie%e tliat tliey do not jfet nioiT lieri'. Aliout lAirt ^[a<•leod, nioi'e li(|Uoi' is l)ein<; sold to Tndians tlian liefore, hut tills is all Ix'inj; done by tlie Halt'-hi'eeds, and I do not know more tlian one of two wiiite men wlio have been eonvicted of selling to Indians. .■(;j")(J7. Takiiii; tlie tlii'ee systems that were in operation in the Noi-th-\vest Terri toiies, tiie permit system us it was first administeied, the permit system with the four per cent 1 leer, and the pi-esent license system, which do you think is tlie liestone? There were very few people in the country when tlu^ permit system was estal>lished ; and of course, if you endeavoured to cari'y that out now, you could not carry it out as ert'ectually. Take it altoj^ether, with the exception of li(|Uor ;;ettinj{ to Indians throujfh the Half-breeds. I tiiink the license system is away ahead of aiiythinf; else. :{r)."((iS. I think you have sai«l that, from your observation, the license law is not carried out very well ? -I think it is bein«; fairly well carried out in some places, liut that dejtends on th(! rnsjiectors, ;ind uj)on haviiifi the riffhtmeii appointed. If th<^ rii;ht men .!.;et licenses anfi the law is strictly enforced, I think a license system is besi, care of course beinj; taken that (hninkards do not get li(|Uor. .■loot)!). Tf the same conditions had prevailed, and the otticials had doiu' their duty, would like results have tlowed from the enforcement of the prohibitory law, that you think will How from the liiense system ? -It is ditHcult to know how to answci' that (piestion. As chief otiicer of the force I did all I could, anil the officers did all they could with the permit system. If the temperance men of the country had really meant work and business, they would have ^iven the police a fji'eat deal of assistance. My here, however', was that great ditliiiilty was met with in -getting e\ideucc. There was a want experience and in this the otHcers were not assisted liy the teini)eraiice peopli of moral (lourage on the part of people with teni|)erance proclivitii's. The clergymen could have given a great deal more assistance than they furnished ; they did not gi\c regard to the ttl( IS iniicli assistance, in fact \-erv little. 'J'hev wrote in the n lewsiiaiiers in n-enforceiiient of the law, but when it cat spaj to bi- got from them. .■>.").")70. Who had the less moral me to the point, there was Ncry little eNideiici courage, those peopl hose inlerestcil 111 liipior trade? Of course, those who were interested in the trade were not sufiposed ti have any moral courage on tills |)oint : but the temperance people and all the liettei class gave us very little siip]ioit. They did the talking, but when we wantcfl facts i( secure conxiclions, we very seldom got them. ;{oo71. Under which of the two svstems was there less drunkenness? There «ii- len less (Irunkeiiiie.ss during the early days, when the ])ermit system was in force and wl it was dirticult to get litjuor. In some of the towns tlu're is more drunkenness now thai bef. ore, and in .some < if the to wns less. I think there is more in Hegi Tn th P although only a short time haselapsed since the license system came into force, I think ii is the most (piiet and orderly ](laee I have ever seen. There is only one licensed reiiiil jilace : but at the same time I have seen men on the back streets taking out bottles fiuiu a saloon, which was authorized to sell, and giving liipior to Indians. •■<.")57"_'. 80 there is illicit sale? No, I wf)uld not .sa\- that ; it iiimlit liavi' In llOUlfll ht at a Wholesale ])lace. T do not think there is anv illicit- sale there iiov .■ir)."i7."5. [s it not a fact that the exercise of ihe permit system destroyed what le permit s\steiii liiliition there was in th I do not think it did. I think tl far as it went and for the time it lasted, had a good effect. ■|.).')74. r find this from the records : that in I8H;}, there were permitteil (),7.'{() gallon and ill IS90, I ")S,(i!)0 gallons, a great increase. Kemeiiiber that th(> populat'oii had eiioi mously increased, and that a very largi' ipiantity of that liiiiior was four per cent beer. r)."i7o. Take two vears that did not include f our |ier cent beei In \! th' ([UJintity s\as .'i.Kio gallons, in ISSi), the (|iiantity was 21,t);!G ! There was a very liuui' increase in the population. .'io.'iT J. I)id the population iiicrea.se seveii ti me: I but 1SS2 and Il^8.'i were two of the cry best years foi' the Territo population increased very largely during those years. im not in a |)osition to -fHie lilt LaWKKV;!'; \V||.M.\M HKli.")."i7!l. Did the population douhle Ix-tween 1SS7 anil 1S!(0 .' If you take in IS'.fj, I think so. ."irj.'iSO. The only point I desiiv to ascertain is this : the introduction of four per cent Iteer was supposed to reduce the t|uantitv of spirits consumed ; hut instead of there haviiiic lieen a ri'diiction, there appears to have Ween a steady increa.se, an increase at a ;;reater ratio than lief(»i'e '. I do not think the four per cent lieer can lie taken as a uuidc, iiecause anyliody would as soon drink ginjier ale. .■)."i")Sl, Was it four per cent iiej'r / Some of it was, 1 su]ipose iiiiiier four per cent iierinits. .■i."i.")S2. You sjioke of a consiv .ocktails made of pain-killer ? —T think the |ieoplt; who would do it in the tty far gone. '^peakiii;;' of the license l-iw ; do you lielie\e that the license law will be, n thi.- country? Certainly. f^'.\' should it be carried out .' I would appoint tirsi-dass Commissioners iiiiii Inspec ii>, w)ui shmdd be outside all politics or ahy intiuence of that sort, and any liriiisee c) ught evading tiie law should lose his license, and he should lie comicted after ivci'ivirg one wiirning. ■ •'••"•Dt). Do you think if the olHcials had Iteen of a similar character, it would iia\<' • II possible to carry out the prohibitory law .' 1 think the feeling of the ]i(!ople all iiMT is against prohiliition. • i-'ii")!! 1 . How do you arri\'e at that conclusion .' - IJy the way they acted during tlu; liiriiiii system ; 1 judge from what they did. .'l.'i.'iil^. You have said that you did not think any ri'solution was adoiited, or any ~it'.'-. t:iken to ask for enlarged liipior facilities. Do you know whether meetings were ii' 'i . :iy steps taken in a formal way to |)rotest against extended facilities lieing was very little done. The farmers were not inter- rcat deal I)c :■ liliei II, SI HI I. CMITieii (■ i' ','ii' -Out-ide of the towns, tlu •'-•ti'i' iiiit- way or the other, .'l."!."!',)."!. Was a plebiscite wanted ? - I am not aware of it. There was iif talk about it. II ll<.i,*=i= 291 :i| Liquor Ti'attic — Xorth-west Territories. M i:!i i .■ir).")i)4. Was tliere not a pctitiriii sij^iied l)y .'5.0U0 or 4,000 persons in a sliort time aslrohil>ition, would it mean \ery much .' You could get moi'e to sign for |)rohil)ition than against it. .■{")")!)<(. If they signed for pi'ohihition, would it mean as much as in the other case? — I am giving my own opinion fi'(im what I have seen. I think lots of pecp[)le in favnur of licpior would sign : a great many of the people who .sold illicitly in the old days under the jiermit .system would leiu! a heljiing hand, liecause they wotdd lie ahle to make moir money than they ai-e makii !> on ly "et ten cents now. .■ir)(iOO. Then you think tii ip ? --Yes, it made I iipior a Then they were able to get half a dollar where tlit 'sing of the trade had tlu' result of making lii|Uiii- M fleal chea|(er than it was before. Under the per- mit .sy.stem, when a man got a Hve gallon permit for whisky, his frit-nds d a) way.' know when it had c onie, ai id th ev won Id it 1 nm and wou ikl stay with tlie live I'aiii until the li([Uor had heeii consumed. Now if a man wants a glass of whisky, he can ni and get it ; foi'nierly a man did not know when he could get another glass, and so In wou Id hanir round and endeavour to i;et three or f( )UI one after the othe iofiOI. Do vou think the permit system was larijelv a fraud .' I think it w; fraud in some ways. rndoubt(>dly a large (piantity of litpior came in without permit, numbei- of men could not get li»(Uor then who can obtain it now. am 1 of course a larg'" .'JoOOli. Will the fact that tht opj)ortunities f )bti th .•reased, owing to the trade being lei;alized, tend to in( rease the drinkini. in- otitainmg luiuors are greattv ni r think will increase the drinking among the lower classes, among the I lalf ■l)reeds ; ijut am on:: the res[)ectai>le jiortujn .f tl le connuuiu tv, I do not think it will increase dr uiKim. ')V)0'.\. Do you think it will not afl'ect them at all /iy Jndye, McDonald : ■\hi\Q\. You think the effect of the change in system will be to ha\e more ale cmi sumed ? 1 tliink thei'c is more alt,' ct)nsumed now. In old days it was hard to yet it in, partly on account of the fnught and partly on account of the ditHculties connectfMl witli the cold weather ; and the result was that one day a man could get ale atid the ncM could not. If a man could not get it e\erv day in the week, and if there was a brewci \ in the country, the consumption would be still greatei'. FHAXCrS NOK.MAX of Prince .Vlbei't, Inspector of the Nurtli-west Mountd Police, on i)eing duly sworn, deposeil as follows : — Jiij Judge McDonald : .'15605. Did you come from one of the nther jirovinces to Prince Albert? — J caim' from Toronto to the North-west. ;{.")tlOt). What coiMitry man are you .' - I am an frishman, finm Dublin. :i5(107. Hosv long have you lived in the Territories ? — Neai'ly ID yeai's. •■<5()08. At what places have you resided / — I think J nave been every v here m the North-west Territories, ft-oni the North Saskatchewan to the intei'national bomnliuy lini". •iotiOO. When you came here first, what .system was in force in regai'd to intnxii ;i ting litpiors f — There was a pei'mit system. The duty (jf issuing permits to bring li<(U'>r L.AWlfENCK WlI.MAM 1 1 i:i« IIMKH. 292 all' I'i'ii i»'t it ill, ted wit 1 1 tlic l\t'Xl ln-cwi'iv Uiiuii''''! loiuiu^uv 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iiilM the niuiitrv, in l.^S'. rested altoj^ctlicr with tlie Commissioner, 'riic ])rt'scut .liulgo .Mci^fnd had aiitiioiity in rcrtain cases to i,'i'ant jiei'niits, in case of siekness. .■i.")()lO. ^'ou ha\e iieard the evidence of Col. Merehmerand Superintendent Cotton? — Ves. .'^-'idll. |)o you ayree with them as to tlu? state of tiiini,'s in the eoiintry under the I'diiiit .system ? — In the old days I was stationed alni^M* altuj^elher in the Macleod luuMtry, and that was the route hy whieli all kinds of pernicious li(|Uor enteicd the Ter- ritories. It was sfeneially hroui^ht fi'oiu Fort Uenton on the up]ier .Mississippi. .'i-")(ilL'. You ha\(.' spoken of the pernicious character of the li(|Uor. hid it profess to lir pure liipioi' I— It was known Ijy the tie.scription of Hourljon liijuoi'. • iolil;!. Did you ever seize any of it? — Yes, I made lots of seizures. .■i")<)l I. In what kind of packau'es did it come into the country '. — In every conceix- .ililc shape, in tins, in i;lass bottles and in i)ottli'S sealed up, which contained three lari;e piiuhes, and these would he put up in the strongest alcohol ; and in fact, the hot tie would contain aliout a pint and a half of alcohol. .■!"•(! I •"). I)id it come in consigned as li(|Uor/ \o, as fruit. •■)-")G10. Had you reason to helievt' that the alcohol was brought in foi' beverage purposes? Yes: they were very e.xpensixc peaches, for the bottles were .*'•").()() each. ri.irh bottle Would contain eight or nine di'inks. .'(■")() I 7. Wh.-t other modes of concealment were used .' The forty roil whisky, as ii was called in those days, was concealed in all kinds of packagi-s ; but the principal pait came in by cargo, which was the better way of doing things. The distance v.as .'ilO uiili->- from .Macleod to Uenton, and Macleod was the place of sale. ."i.")()lS. Was any brought in concealed in the middle of other packages? In one 1 a^r a ipiantity was brought in, concealed in barrels of nails. There was a live gallon kfj. in the centre of some barrels, and it came in as a cai'go of nails. ■ lOtil!). Then some of the barrels would contain all nails and some liipior J Y'es. Ill examining a large inimber of barrels, it was pretty hard to detect which had lii|Uor ami which had not, and the ])cople in this v.ay biouglit it across the line and concealed it tor a time. You had to watch thi' coulees and i'Inci- beds and banks and e\erv other I ■''■"■*■• ')">t)L'U. Did all the.se I'ontrivances tend to keep the police on the alert ? Yes. There Will' I large number of Indians there, and they were making ]ireparat ions for the lllack- tiit Treaty, and S.OOO oi' '.),0()0 Indians were gatliei'eil together and we had great diHi- riiliy ill kee])ing liipior away from them. •■'•■"itl'2 1. How long was the boundary on which you had to dischai'ge your duties : — W r had from U'd Hiver to the summit of Chief .Mountain, a distance of I)4<.) miles. '><''22. Was that all along the international boundarv Y.-s, .").") <)■_'.■!. Was smuggling taking place at diH'erent jioints ? Chiefly in the westei-n ■al-l. ■ and .1 half years, brought in here :i'ittL'l. Mow long have you been at Prince Albert ? Tliret .!.")( >•_'."). What was your experience here .' Was any liipior lermit system ? -A'cs, there was a good deal. ■")'")t)2<5. Did you make seizures .' Yes. It was brought in in ditl'erent ways, some- > consigned in loinmercial tra\ellers' cases as samples. We would sometimes (iiid tiiiii i!ia! those cases would contain eight or ten gadons of whisky. • '•'ililiT. When the cases were opened was the li(|Uor discovered, l)oxes wer'c beautifully fixed. When the cases show ; they were indeed very nii'cly fixed up. or was it packed were opened out liiKiniieath .' The llir ki'u> would not • I'lCiL'S. What kinds of liipior would be found in them ,' Alcohol, brandy, gin and \Wu--kv. They came in as connnercial travellers' ert'ects. In Uegina they would be tlimuii to the ground, but if there was any danger, they would not be claimed. •' !■")() ■_".). T supjiose they were claimed by you ? N\'e would leave them for a few ilay-, and see if anv one would endeaxour to take them away, but they would generally Mi'i he claimed. ."i.'idlUI, Have you had anv experience of the use of pain-kil'er and e;iu de Cologne a^ a heveraue ?- -Ye.s. i| :; I ■ 203 ;ih, Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. .■?."i().'{l. What liiivn you scfii in tliiit way? Tlicy tin imt go in very nuicli fur that kind lit" tiling now. In the ohJ days we saw a good ileal ot' it at Foi-t Pelly. There was not \ery niueh liquor coining in, for there was gi-eat dittieulty in getting it there. Everything ha. Tln^ Halt'-hreeds made a very gout it is, that there have been fewer convictions since it came into force than there were under the permit sy.stem. .■jr)(!.'{8. Have you seen more drunkenness since? —There have been very few cases. I do not come very much into the town, howevei-. T hav(? heard of a few ca-ses amonu the Half-breeds, iiut thei'e have l)een very few con\ ictions, anfl those not for infractiuii- of the license law at all. Jiy Rev. Dr. McLeod : .'i.")().'5!t. Speaking alwut copvictions, to what comictions do you refer? — I refei- tn convictions we forinei-ly had under tiie pernnt .system. .■?.")() 10. Were those convictions on charges of bringing in liciuor illegally ?—Yi's. .■5.")(U1. You coultl not have such cases now, when it is possible to carry on tlw trade ? — Yes, they hold licenses. If any party brought inlit|uor in any quantity, how <'\cr small, and did not hold a license, I consider- that it would be br'inging it in illegally. .■5.'")(')4"_'. We under'Stand thei-e arv two whoh'sale and one retail license issued liciv. I)o yuii su])pose the jjr'ojirietor-s l)r-irrg in as much liquor legally as was br'ouglit in bft'ui'- illicitly .' I do not think so. I think the best dete<'tives in the country arv those wlin hold licenses. .■}.")()l.'}. You think they ai'e detectives? -Yes, for their own benefit. .'{.■)()14. If they knew that a party was smuggling in liquor here, would they tell tin- authorities.' Yes. .■i.")(U."). You think tliei-e is no smuggling, however, going on here? — I do not think there is now. .■?;")G4(). Is ther'e any illicit alcohol brought irr by wholesale men? — T saw the laM' that Col. Heivhmei- mentiorred. We ha\ehadan irrstarice of chat here. Tlier'e are twn wholesale riier'chants here, as jierhaj)s you are awar'c, One the Hud.son Hay Company < agent arrd the other' a thoi-oughly r-espected firm. Of cour'.se, it would not be totlii-ii iirter'cst to carr'v on an illicit trade. .■55pose that under the license system you do not i)ay altention to tlie in- i-oiiiing litpior, regarding it as having the right to come in ?- -Certainly, and wecid not search trains. .'ioGOl. Of course, it is a legitimate trade now. Do you believt^ in the prohiliitimi lit' the !i(|uor traffic'/ — I do not know how it would work. I have .seen the wurking ni the Scott Act and do not believe in that. .'M6()2. Why ( I have .seen it in operation in several places, among (iiIumn in St. Tiiomas, Ontarifj, and in Yoi'kville, outside of Toronto. .'(."itjli.'i. Did you live in tho.se places? — Yes. ."iotlCk Then you did not find the Scott Act work very well ? - No. ;i.")(')0."). When was that '. The last time I was in Toronto was in 18S.!, nine years a no. :{.")()(■!(). You observed the Scott Act in Yorkville ? Yes. .■<.")()67. Do you know how long it had l)een in operation there .' (i>uite a w hile. .'{."ifiOS. Six or (Mght years? — No ; I have been here as long as that. :>.")()(')(*. When the Scott Act was in forc(f there? Yes. „ ^J'tOTO. \Vere you there a long time (luring the operation of tiie Scott Art .' No, three or four weeks. •"i")<)71. Yciii think yoio' obsersation nf liie law was sutlieient toenalile yuu tu t'diin .01 (ppinion .' Yes ; I saw its efi'ects uvei' and o\er again. •')o()72. Did you see open sale there?— Yes ; I went into une plact; with a friend and had ii(|Uor over the liar. .'I.")))";!. That was under the Scott Act .' - Yes. I was a stranger there too. I a>ked t'lr strong drink, and tlie proprietor said he could not give m,' any, but if I asked fur a htlh' ginger lieer. he would gi't it for me. •'i5()7b He gave you ginger beer ? -No, he did not. He said he \Miuld gi\enii^ uinger beer, if 1 asked for it; but instead of dcjing so, he disai)peared diwn a trap dour and gilt some strong (h'ink for me. ■ >">t)7o. Is that the business that is usually cariieil on at a licensed bar ! They generally have a cellai- under the bar. .■).'")()7ti. Is that like a licensed bar ! — No. ">")()77. Do you think there is anything in the fact that liijuor has tu be bimi-ht ii|i ihi'iiugh a trap door? They had to use every means of coni'ealmeni . M")G7S. Did the Scott Act cause them to use such mi'ans '. Yes. /ly Jtid;/'' Mi'DiDiold : •'5oG7!t. You were in St. Thmuas, I believe? Yes. 29.5 II , I/; fl i i.fi Liqiioi' Tranio — Nortli-west Territories, .'lotj"^0. N\'ii> li((Unr sold tVi't'ly ? — \es, yoii cuiild jjci all tlif liijuur you waiiU-il. A'// A'"-. /)/•. M,-I.<„d: ;'i.")Of. Anil your oiisi-inatioii was, what ', 'J'liat it was a fraud. •"ioCii"!!. Was tliat. voui' uhscrvatiou as vou stmlied it, or was it an observation told you ijy sonu- jieoiiit^ Ining tncn the It was my own indix idual exjicriciioi .■i5()S">. Tliiit is to say that people when they wanted whisky oi' some such drink, had to ask t'or it under the name of a tem|pi dfink and thev would ifet what thev anted '. Yes : so that if he was diseoxcied, he would say. " What did you ask me tor '. '' and the reply woidd he, '' I asked you for i;in;fer heer." ;i.")t)S(). Were you e\('r hroujilit forward in a ease of that kind ? — No. .■!")Gf<7. You say you were a party to this. If you had been summoned as a witness. Would you have said that you asked for L(in<;er heer? Tf 1 had heen placed under oath. ] would have had to say so. .■i.")(')Si'<. And that you did not ask for drink / -I sai, of Itejiina. Superintendent of the Xcntli-west .Mounted Police, on beiiin' duU sworn, deposed as follows: — Jti/ Jiiijiji- Mr Dmiiilil : :i."i(l!l4. How lonji' ha\e you resid'-d in the Territories?- 1 haxc been here since 1S74, close on 10 years. ;).")()'.!."). Hid you come here in connection with the force ,' Yes. ."i.'idDC). What system was in operation in the North-west Territories when the force came hen-? -The permit .system was established. ;").")697. AVho was (lovernor then ?— The Hon. Mr. Laird. ;i.")(i98. And the permit .system was continued up to 1st May last? — Yes. ■■>.")IV.1'.I. Hii\e you lived in different parts of the Territories ?— Yes. l was stationed at Edmonton for 10 years, and my next place was Hcffina. T have visited most of the posts for a few months at a time. ■'i.")700. You have heaiil the evidence given by other otticers of the force, 1 suppose.' — I dill not heai' all of it. H.")701. Did you find dilliculty in enforcing the law prohibiting li(pior being brought into the country ? During the Hrst years I was in the country, there was not much liquor brought in where I was, because transportation was \ery ditKcult, for exerythinu had to be luought from \\'innipeg in carts. Fli.XXCIS XOKMAN. 296 : W m 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 :i")70L'. Wliiit ilisliiiicc wouUl it be.' -About '.toU iiiilos. Of omrsc the tifiulit iiiailt! L'\c'rythiiij{ \(>ry expciisivi'. There wiis ii j^rcfit (Idnjft'f ut' wliisky ln-inic liiiiu'd into water' liet'ore it l-Ciielied its (lestiliatioii. ,'ir)7l*.'(. ^'ou mean l)y the men ean'yinsj; it '. Yes, liy tile peippic on llie I'nad, wlio would ta]i tiie hairels and afterwards put wiiler in its jilaee and mal. In tliose days, did you fvec sec otiiei' (.'ompounds used in place of liijUof? W'c have iiad e\idenee ;,d\en icLtardini,' the use of a j;r<'at many eomjiounds and diUiis .' 1 lia\e seen painkiller, eau dc (Joloj^ne, Florida water and everything cif that kind in vOiich thei'e was alcoliol used, and they were drank in the country. • '•")7U7-'^. NVhat would hap]ien when li(iuor came into a community .' - If a man yot ill li(|Uor under permit, his friends woulil gather at his house and the keg would he on i!ir lahle, and they would keeji on drinking until the li(|Uor was all consunietl. Of (•M\iisc after this thefc was an interval, and then the pain-killer and essences would lie I, -III. In some eases people would make pain-killer cocktails, hut the use of es.senies as a rule came' after a li(|Uor spree. ."i."i7Ult. I )id liipior come in undei' cover? Yes. •')">71(). Had you any e,\perience on the outer liorder ? I was stationed for a very ^liurl time at Kort ^lacleod. .■1")7 1 I . -Did you seize any liipior lirought in .' ^'es, and it was \ery foul si uff. •■'>"i7r_'. W'lrit has been your ex])erience in regard to licpior being brought in con- nalcd in other |iackages'/ I ha\(> seen a gijod deal of liipior concealed in all sorts of ways and ii great deal had bei'u tlestroyed, and I liaxi- seen a little brought into liegina li\ express. The otlieers in charge of the station were sometimes a little susjiieious and unuld open goods and so forth. They f(tund a keg of whisky in a barrel of salt. They iiiok tile whisky away and re^iacked the barrel, and the owner came and claimed it. lie had to jiay a tine of ><')0i) for ex]iress and other charges. /ly /i'rr. Dr. Mr hod: .'i")71."l. What was done with the whisky? — It was desti'oytMl. ;'>-"i71i. Jfax'e lai'ge (piantities been destroyed ?- Yes. last year we destroyed '.'-'i.") L:.illiins of whisky which was lieing brought to a inei'chant at Kdmonton. This mei'"hanl, t'p my own knowledge, had an agent at C'dgary, and he bought provisions and t the -aiiie time shipped Up li<|iii>r. .■i")71-"). So there was a kw;.s of the li(|uor besides tlie freight paid ? -\'es. .■i")7Ui. |)o you think the otKcers in the discharge of their duties wei-e very watchful uid /ealou.s in trying to enforce the {irohibitory law? — Yes, most of them were: l>ut llicy were wvy little helped iiy the people of the country, who would protect the whisky tiailcrs and smugglers. "i')717. Did you have reju-esentations made by the people who \ant«Ml the law en toivcd ,' Yes, but when we wanted evidence or information we could not get them to uiw' it to us. •">"i7l!^. 8o you were hindered in that way .' -Yes, anil \)\ the feeling among the |itn|i|c thj;t it was wrong to endeavour to enforce sucli a law. ■ i'i711t. Did you find that the liijuor smuggled was the strongest alcohol I Yes. I li.iM', however, had little experience with the liipior bi'ought in from the I'nitefl States. •Miiiiist all the li(|Uor with \vhieh I had to do was brought into the counti'v from ^^'in- iiil" l: or from ISritish Columbia, and it was good li(|uor. •">'i7l'(J. Since the license law has conu' into force, have you found that ale has 'ii'ii brought in more freely? There is more ale used in the country. It is easier to I'liiii.: it in now, as it comes by the ear load, and is of course not as expensive. •i">7"_'l. Why is it in the best inter'e.sts of the people of the country to encourage tln' Use of light wines and ales instead of spirituous litiuon-"^ -I think if the wines and ulfs Were made cheaper, they would be used moi'e, and thei'e would be le.ss druiik- i'ime>s. 297 i -:' If I Liquor Trattic — North-west 'IVnitories. .">")7--. llii\c you Imil iiiiy ox})(!ri<'iict' nt' tlie wnikiiij; of tlu' licfiisc law [since yoii came lieic I live out lit' l!fjL;iua, iiud I scldnni in> into the town. 1M:TKH KOIJEirrSOX, of Piintc AUii'it, Chief Constal)].' and LinMisr Insi.c.toi. on l)t'ing duly sworn, deposed as f(»llo\vs; — /ii/ Judge MiDomtld : .'l.")72.'{. Wore you appointed Chief of Police hy the .Munieijial Council? \>j the town. Ii'u24. By whom were you appointed License Inspectoi'? — By the town. .'55725. How long have you lived in Prince Albert ? - About nine years. •'557'20. Did you come from one of the other province.s? — I came from Ontario, from Middlesex County. 35727. Have you resided at Prince Albert e\er since you came to the Territoi'ies ' —Yes. . .S572H. You ha\'e s(;en, of course, the working of the permit system here? — Yes. .'55729. When you came here, was that system in frtrce? — Yes. I{57;?0. Did you Hnd the people a sober and law-abiding conmiunity? — Not any more than tliey are at the present time. ."55731. Are they so at the pi'esent time? - Yes. They are a law-abiding people: there are, of course, a few drunks. .'557."52. T mean as a community ? — Yes, as a conununity. .'557."53. You think you have seisn no change ? — Very little. •'557.'54. What are your duties as Licen.se Inspector? — To see that jieopie selling .iii' licensed and that they are carrying out the license law. ;557."55. You mean your duties are to watch people who are selling without license^, and to see tliat those having licenses comply with the i'e(|uirements of the law ? — Yes. .■557.5c. How do you find the law observed? --1 have not had any ditticiilty since 1 have been Lispectoi' in seeing that it is enforced. .'557.'57. Have you many cases of drunkenne.ss ?— Occasionally we have sevei'al cases, but the parties are generally Half-breeds. :.557.'5S. Is this room, in which we are now sitting, your l()ck-\ip? — Yes. 357"59. .hidging from its appearance, there is not much u-i ijr li ? XoL \\;ry lui.. 1. . occasionally we have a prisoner. Some weeks we have sevi^ral cases, but during Muiie months we have no cases at all. 35740. From your e.Kperience of the law, which do you tiiiiik is preferable, the .ild permit system or tlie license system ? -T prefer the license system. 35741. Do you think it is (|uite practicable to woi'k a license liiw projjei'ly ?- Ye>. 35742. Have you found any ditliculty ? — No. 35743. Are there any suggestions you could make to the Commission with a \ieu to improve the law ? — No, I have no suggestions to offer. I think, howevei', the li.n rooms should be limited to one door and that the front door. ."55744. Have you any other suggestions to offer? — No. Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : 35745. Why should drinking places have only one door? — Because at times tlieiv are parties in after hours : they are liable to go out by a side door, which they could ii"t 7 i\K Tlifii siilti (lours wdultl not iiuikt' iiiiy (lill'tTfiicu if lie ciiii (Iciiiand litjuor .' — It would not iniikt' any (liH'cfeiict' in r<';,'iii-(l to tliiit ciisc. .'}.")7i")0. It' a man was rlct<>nnin(Ml to ol)S(;i'V(> tin- law, would it make any ililftTcnff wliftlier tiierc was one door or ten dottrs .' It would not rt'ally make any (liffV'nMirc in that case. .■$")7")i. Hut is it a fact that you lind excry uian holdini; a lit'cnsc rniin<-d tosril whenever he can, and if he has a side iloor he will i,'et the jieojile out of the way (|uictly and fi'ee from ol)ser\ation .' Thei-e is a little in that. I'rohalily you want to go in with a friend and you in. i .■i")7-")'J, Speaking about the right of a traveller to demand liijuor : if a tourist gets in iiei'(! at 10 o'clock on Saturday night, which is after hours, rtin he go to a hotel anfl demand a drink, and would the licen.see ha\(' to sell it? — I thijik you can force a licenvce to 1,'ive you a »h'ink. iJ.'JTo.S. At any hour? — I think so. ;ir)7r»4. How long have yf>u been Chief of Police ] .Since 18!)U. .'t 57 •")•"). Wei'e your (hities more or less l>efore the license law came into force .' .My duties were about the sar.ie jls they are now. I can say tliat there is not much diti'erence. Till re are no more .'")7'')0. You ha' e three times as long hours now .' Yes. ■■i-'")7()l. Has your salary been increased ? -Yes. • >">7t)-. You say you are also License Inspector'. What do you do as liis|iector to see that the law is ol)sei\ed ; do you visit the licensed places.' the places twice a month. .'{.")7(i-'i. Does tlie man ktiow when you arc coming ?— No. •i")704. You have, of course, the right to \isit at any time any jilaco licensed ."i.")7tii'). l>o you drop in at 10 or 1:2 o'clock ? -At any time I see tit. I was employed in t lit» have nic employed all principal reasons, and License I visit Y. Have you ever found the licensee selling after hours?- No. Have you evei- heard any coni])laints ', No complaint has been iiiadc to iiic. It has iiexcr been 'ii:'")7t)S. So fill' as you cm judge, tli.-it is not done my notice. ■'to7()!l. Have you reastin to believe tlieie is any sellin I !uu aware, there is not. • !-")770. Or on Sundays '. No. ■ i">771. Did you ever see any drunkenne.-.s on .Sunday ? Yes. but it was from the ctl'i'ct of lii|uor got on Saturday night. 'i")77"_'. You .say that you jirefer the license law. Why do you think a license system IHcfeiable? One reason is, that under the old ])ermit system it was customary for |i(>iiple getting a permit to have their friends join them, and they would drink until they ilrank all tlie liijuor. You woidd see more (blinking then in a week th.-tn you will see ill a month at the present time, because the friends all (locked tlii-re as they thought it iiii^lit be the last li(|Uor they would get ff>r some time. • >-)77;5. They drank as long as the licpior held out ? Yes. Now ,i man c.-ni yci mimI ;.'el a di'ink when he is disposed to have one. ■ '•'">77-t. But you would have a lot of men drinking for one week under the peiiiiit system, and you have them (h'inking all the time undei- the saloon system .' When the men could not get liquor of course they could not get drunk. i I 299 U(Hior Triillic — Nortli-wost Toi'ritories. lint now I licv can ;;i't il I'Vi •'•}■ "'"V .M I'll W III! WI'I'I' ill I III' llilllit lit' gclliii;; ilriiik uikUt tin- |«'rmil system, i^tst li(|iioi' legally iitiw. .■<577<). Is it lictlci- tliat (lii'V I'fiii 1,'t't it l(';;iillv / S'cs. Mi >i i I. Is tlifiT iiiiil'c III' less (ii'liikiii'^ now tliaii tli< lii't'i I niniiol Miv. '>'~!^. Is it just aliiiiit till' sal I sec Ncrs lilllf (iitlcicnci Tl Maivli 1st, were not more iiuiihtoiis than thtiy wcif iiiuicr tin- jicrmit system /li/ Jtali/f MrDoaolil : .■i")77'.i. ^'oll have s|i<)ken of tlu! imveased hotii^ and the ineieuse ot' (•(illlse voiir (lllties liave increased ''. ^'es. le itllCst-. n|i til ,uv. woik :l")7S(». ^'oii ..I'e also Kii'e liis|)eetur as N.cll as J.ieense liisjieetor >. \'es. .■}"»7i' h disti'ict niimher lU. .■{."i7'^J. Does t\\'r. iiichuh^ I'lince Alliert ? — Yes. lul\ V )7.s.i. Mow loiii. ha ve yon resided in the North-west Territories? Nearly 'Jl years. here in If .■{."')7''f). lias I'rince .Mliert lieen yonr place of residence? Not all the time. I calm M.'')7''^i. Where were you liefore that .' In \\ iniiipi .•{.") 7 S, - . Did you come from one of the other |iro\ iines .' From Oiit.'i II'IO. :ir)7f<;>. What ("oiiiitv .' The Ooiintv of Durham ;<.")7!H). Was the license law in force when you U •ft th- it was at that tin 1 left my family there, and went l)aekwards and forwards for two or three years, duiiiiu wliich time tiie Scott Act came into force thcic. .■!.")7!ll. Did vou see anvtliiiiu: of the workini' of it :i.")70:.'. Tt came into force in iS,S(J, J li About that time, .■t.'i7'.l.l. What can you say about the workinii of it '. It was a failr.re as a total alistineiice law. .'t.''>7!M. Pidhihition was not enforced.' — (.^uite .so. ."i.") 7 !••"■). Ill the Northwest Territories you !ia\e seen tlie working of a iiroliiliitnry law, and since May 1st, of a li'-eiise system : which is preferalile .' A license systei 11 ii\ dl i.d< '\'t'\)C>. AN'ere you jircseiit when the otticers of the Mounted Police f(a\(' tli' evidence ? - Y( i557'.l7. Do you endorse their statements as to li(|Uor being smuggled into tl le cmiii- try ? - T k now it was smui'itled in .•{.'")70N. Of \yliat character was the 1 the very worst descrijition of spirits. i([Uoi' ? -Th li(]Uitiii'\ [fin liv Ic tlii'ii- (.•nun II WilS .'l")S()l. I |ii\)> yon I'vci' liiMMi aliiiii; till' smitlifi'ii ImnliT ! Nu. ! \\n\f mi'Vit m'i'm iiivtliiiiK in ri'^'iii'il li> llic lii|Unr lui^incvs ilnsvn tliciT. ■|*»M)1.'. I'uy'iil know iiiiyt liiii;,' in ii'ifiiiil In tiir list' ot' run dr ( 'cilituni' iiml |i,iiii killer .' I liiivt! si'cn tlinn usfd Uvw. .■ <»♦' the |ii-iiliiliii(iiy ifiw. iln ymi think It- is pnu;tii'iil)li' tip I'liforct' II f{('in'nil iiruliiliitury liiw '. Nu. ;i.')Sl)t. S|iriikini; (if a |ii'i>liil)itiii'y lnw, I am s|n'akii>},' ot' wlial is «'Hllt'(l lomii'unlv national |iidliiliition, a law tor tlir total |)rolii)iit ion tor t lie wliolc ot' (.'aiiaiia of ilii; iiiaiititai'iiiri', iiii|iortalioii ami salt' ot iiitoxicatinj;; lii|iiiii's for lit'vi'ia^i' |iiir|iosi's '. I tlo lint tliink it is at all |ii'iit'ti<'al>lc. .■{."iStj."). Ill cast' siii'li a law wi-rr passed, woiilil you dfi'in il rijilit, lliat iirtnvi'is and liisiillfi-s should rt't'i'ivt' I'ompciisation t'or tlirir Imildiii^cs and plant whifh would lin ri'iidi'i'i'il iisi'lcss .' Most di'cidi'dly. .l.-iSOd. ^'ou lia\f had I'Xpfi'it'iifi' of iIk' lift'iiM- law sincf it caiin' in, liolhasaii otlicial and as a I'iti/cii. |)o yoii t liiuk it has woiki'd satisfai'torily ? Vt-s, so fai as I rail jutlj,'!' at |irfscnt. < )f coiirsf il has only liccn in fori'f a short tiiiit'. .'jriSO". Taking,' the fact that if has come in as a iit'W system, and that it has uisfii llii' people a freedom they diil not possess liefore, ilid you ohserve that there was iiion^ tlrinkinji durin;; this first few months than there has iieeii latterly, and tha the people have settitMJ down and lieeome aeeiistoiiied to the new law '. I'lx I'lyhotly expeeted that, lliere would be more liipior used ; of coui'se it is only an opinion I ^'ise in rei;ard to r\ervl)ody. ."SriSOS. Are tlieri! any suj;i{'''"'i""'^ >'"'" >'aii make tu i he ( 'ommission as to aiiiend- iiieiiis to the law so as to make it more workalilt- / I do not know of any. Some ■-iiiti-'estions were made to the Comniissioii hy the Lirense ( 'ominissioners .it l!i".;ina, liiii at present, I do not know of any. /I,/ H'l: Dr. Mr hud: .■(.iHOH. I>y whom are the liieeiise ("ommissioiiers appoinjed .' ISy the I'^xeiiii i\ c m l!r;,ina. .'S.-iSlO. What are I heir duties .' They are [a lie found in t he ( trdiiianee for urantiiii; lirrlises. .'i.'iSll. rpoii what « uiidit ioii.s .' - I think the <>idiiiaiice lays down that foraeeriain |ii)|iulat ion a certain numlier of licenses may lie uiaiiteil. .'{"iSl'J. Is there no provision that the commiiiiiiy can remain without a license, or iMiisi there lie licenses granted whether ilii^ community want them or not ? I think there i.s some pi'(i\ision by which they can prott'st against licenses liein;; j^ranted. ll.")S].'{. We understaiitl that you have issued only one license for the town / ^'es. • i'lSI I. You are ('ommissioner for .a wider area than the town '. '('es. There is one reliiil license issued at I )uck Lake and one wholesale license issued at iSatoehe. ;(.">Sl.'"i. hoes your district include Saskatoon '. N'es. • I'lSlli. Is there iiiiich drunkenness throiiuhoiit t he dist rici '. -I lliink t here is \-ery iitllc. "i")SI7. ho you think that absence of drunkenness will be likely tocontiniic if the license system is continued '.■ I think so. W'e will li" alili' to enforce anil carry out the law. because there is a better uiiderstandiiii,' about it. .').")!^|8. What steps will be taken to enforce the license law '. — The I nspeetois lia\ i! Iii'i'ii instructed to enforce it, and I think, in fact F ki..;w, the Mounted Police lia\i' taken steps to enforce it. •""•"iiSli). Is there more than one Inspector '. 'J'liere are twd for the district. •'(•"iJSi'U. Are they suppo.sed to \ isit places tiiat are licensed .' -^'es ; but as the ' 'iilinance at present stands, only once a y(>ar. • I'iS'Jl. I)t) you think they will be abh; to exeveise any kind of super\ isioii when i1m\ only visit (>nci> a year ? Not much. ."i.jSiJl'. So the observance of the law will be at the jileasure of the people holding liicnses \ — That will be the case, but tire .Mountetl Police have a rij,'lil to act, or in a I"" II like this a con.stable acts. "I'lSi';!. Do you think a yeii'-ral proliibitorv law is practicable .' — F do not think it is. 301 " i ^fi h:i! m- 'i,^ W % I'^i i! MM. I) Liquor TnUlic — Norrh-Nvcst Teiritorie?' iM-'l. Ill tlic Tfi riturit's or aiivwlicrc c!.- Nut aiivwl ii-n- ;i.")Si'.'). Why ! — Heciiusc it is impi'ai't'iiililf to cfiriy out suoli ii law. .">"iN"_'ti. W'liiit niakt's it impMssihlc to arry tint siu-li ii law ! Hiiiiiaii naturt'. .'i'lSiT. \nu think that liumaii iiatuif is sucli that it would he iiii|iossiiiit' to carry out >iicli a liiw Al OU II' :lit IS vM'ij icll a mail i>i ;i iiuniiicr ot iiii'ii not to scim- tlu' Aliniiihty in a partu'iilar way ;!;")>':'>!. ^''>'.i think it is a matter of juinciplc .' N't-s. .■iriSii'.l, You think worship and the drink ti'adf arc to lie put in thcsamc fat<'j;ory ,' ■ — I do exactly : you are iiitcrt'ciini; with the lilnrty of the sul()fcl in one way as inucli as ill the other. ,'>."),s;'iO, I >o you think there is an iiittMference with any nunilier of jieople liy the estahlisliment of the di'ink trade.' — No, I do not I'hink so. I do not, however, want to enter into any 'irj,'uiiioiit. .■ir),s;)|. S'oii have said that the pmhiliition of the drink trade would he an inter- ference with in(li\iilual ri^dits, with the riithts of the people. There are certain jieople who sav that the drink ti'ade, as estahlislied, interferes with tlii'ir rights and wi ith \h lives, in that it is a constiint daii.ncr to them and to the community. Is that tru< f— 1 do not think it is. .■|.")S;t-_'. You think they arc mistaken .' ^'es. ."l.-iS.')."!. And, therefore, their \ lews should not lie considered.' They lia\e the privileye of appealinjf from that decision. .■J."iS:U. I>ut they contend that the trade is a const.iiit menace to the youiiLf : not think it is. I ')HXi. And they would like t(> lia\e it put a" .ly, delei;ali/ed. I )o you think their views oil jflit not to Ik- considered .' —1 did not sav that. .•id. .\ re you oppose il to iirohiliit am not opposei I to it, prohiliition on account ot its alle<;ed impracticahdil 111 princii ."iS.'iy. Are you opposed to the prohiliition in the license law. for tl !»'■ ihiliition in it :' How do vou mean .' 1 do not understand. pro\isioi!s in the license law which piohi hit lere is some II man selling .'triS.'),'^. There are cectain after prohiliited hours ? Yes. .■i.-iS.'iit. \V'hy do you ap].ro\(' of that prohiliition and ohjeci to prohiliition of a larger kind, on principle .' IJecause that would lie likely to disturb the peace "iSK). That i.s, that the lai'ijei' prohiliition would lead to dist urhances of the peair. Id not .' That is an arniiinent, or it, is liiulinu' iiitu an aiiiumenl. but tin dl le smaller won and I do not eare to answer that ipiestion I am perfectly willing; to answer ipiesti that lead up to inform.'ition. but that is an ari^uinent and will lead tl. a controxersv. .'>oS I I . Will vou kiii(ll\' tell the ('oiiimissioners the iiiforniation i •> w'lich vou iiasc III' belief that jirohibit imi is impiacticable / lieeause I do not think you can possibly vo enforce it. .i.s IL'. Tl. I IS not inform.ilion. I jioii wluii facts do you base that iecause we ,s;iw the results opinion out, and it was found iiii|iossilile to carry it out. under the old permit svsteiii. It was tried to be carrii both. iSI.'). That suifyests the (|uestioii: Was il prohibition or |ieiiiiission f It wa^ .'i'lNII. NVhicli was it '. It w;is |ieriiiission. ."iriS-t"). You .iudj,'e prohibition by a .system of permission .' I look on the i|uestiini in this way : people must have a I'crt.dn (piantity if stimuliints. 'I'lie information jiiveii by the Judn'e, about Maine, .siiows that it is so. ."i.'iSKi. The .liid^e thoii^dit he was not able to base an o|iiiiioii on his iir rmatioii ' --Still he said h .•|.")S17. I'.ut able to yet drink tli Id II. it sav that tlu' .Maine hi as a failure, 1 iecause lie \\a- iible to yet drink in Portland '. Me did not say that. /)'// IikIiii' Mi' DdiiithI : .'i'lSIS, Speakiiiii of the (piestion of total prohibition and tlie prohibition thai i~ cont.'iined in the license law, 'hat is, prohibitin:; sale during' certain hours and on Sun •loiiN l>. l{i;i:i>. 30i m 57 Victoria. kSesjiional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 (iav. .'iiiil si> nil, do yuti nut liiultluit llii- liiilk of piililio srntiiiu'iit is it; fiiMiiii' ot' ihi' lalici- (troliiltitioii ? Yes, I tliiiik so. .'>.").SHt. lliivillir till' sClltillKMlt of (lie wllolc roinillllllit V ill f.ivolir ol' tlioc |iro- \ isioMs. tlu'ic is no (liUicnlty in fiii-i-yin<,' tlicni out '. Not iil ;ill. .'ir>(Sr)(). In rt'i^nnl to tlic (|ii<>stion of intcift'i-cni't' with tlic ]ii'o|ilf wlio iii.' iiijiirtMl liy liic tlfink Imliit, and on tluit <;i-ound pivvcntinji tlicii- olitiiiidiiL; diink, take iioaso of I his kind : W'c Imvc liad it in cvidtMicc, in ono plai'c wln'i-c tlicfc wci-c "JOO iiu-n t'lnploycd ill a manufactufiin; I'staldislmicnt, (liat I IM) were solici', some of tliciiiliciiii; total ali-tain- riN and some iiiodi'iatc drinkers, hut tlit'ir was one drunkard. Tlic i|iU'stioii is, wiu-tliiT tlif lijrlil iiicasure to adopt is to deprive tlie l!l!t men wlio use liipior in iiioderat ion, or ilo not use it at all, fi'oiii ol>taiiuii<;; it, or to take tliat one man and |iiit liim away from liipior. What eiiswef would you i;i\i' to siieli a ipiestion as that ! The man liould lie put away most decidedly, for I do not see wliy others should he called U|ion to sacrifice 1 hi'insel', es. .'t.'iS.'il, I n these Territories you liave not many driinkaids of i-oui se, I iit in otiier )'ails of the country they are to he found. These men are constantly appeariiiLf hefore the police courts, and are sent to jail for short terms, and on lieiiifj; relea.sed follow the same course a;;ain. Would you consider it het.er tiiat they should he contined in sonic^ iiisiitution foi- a time with a view to their reformation, or at all evfiits for the purpose of kecpini,' them away from temptation, or would you continue 'he present system .' I do not see wliy I !•!' should saci'itice themsei .es for one iiiaii, Cndouhtedly he slunild lie shut up for a time. I should liki> to say this with rei.';u! to total ahstainei's, that ! know tlu'V iuiM' done a lot of Ljood, hut thev should not ti'v to force theii' views on other |icople. especially vv he i it is forcing them down our throats. We do not try to foi'ceoiir \ ievvs down their t IpmiIs, .■i.'iS.-r.'. !)o yon iiiid the inthieii.e of the churc!ies and tcmjierance societies has liicn henefici.il .' It is doing a gi'oat deal of good, ;io douht. I know that from my I'xpcriencc in Toronto. I know that 20 or ;{() years .igo, in that Province, nothing important could lie done vv itlioiit there heiiig some drinkiin; I'oniiected with it. /iij /iVr. /),: Mrl.rod : H.-^STjlV I )o you think the proportion is one drunkard out of a hiindri'il drinkers ( - 1 do not : I do not sujipose tiiei'e is one. ii'iSol. Not one iiiMii out of a hundred of those who take lii|iior dii iks to excess .' Certainly not. .'{rii"*;-)"!. Has your oiiscrv at ion hecii (piilc v\ ide ^ No, I liavi' not given that |ioint iiiucli coiisiderai ion. :! I lijl ,/iii/(/i Mr/)iiiio vou lielievi', taking the people who use ales ;ind wines and spiritiKHis me one and some the other, that there is a propoiiion of 1 in l'Oi) or .">(•(• .' I iii|i;or il<. Do you think there is I in --'.ODll .' ^'es. .i.'iS.-i".*. 1 )o you think that pulilic opinion is in favour i>f licensing ; he drink I raile .' So far as I know, puhlic o|.iiiioii in the North-west Territoiie is in favour of license. :'i."iS(i(>. How do you arri'e at tli.it conclusion .' The l;ist eleciioii most decidedly ^eltled thai Ipiestion. .'i.'i.Slii. Was the election lun on the ground of license versus prohihilion ' It was "lie of the i|uestioiis Up. People considereil it a decided improvement on the o|<| system. "I;:'li >vas spoken against evei'ywhere. ■ i.'iSli".'. W'e hail it in evideiico from Iwd of the witnesses that it was not an issue at Mli ,ii the last elect ion 1 it was one of tlii' chief issues, .'i."i^t;;i. Then it was not the chief issue ( It was one of th; issues. They tried to kcrii it hack as much as they coulii. w 303 Liquor Truffle — North-west Tei-ritories, .■{5804. Have ymi Imd ;iiiy cxpcriciicc of ;i liceiist- liiw cNi-wlicrc tli.iii lici't' and nvt.-r (I luiiycr )M'i-i(((l tliaii till' tVw iiumtlis it lias licf-ii in force here .' \'es. .'i.")iS (■).*). l)i(l vou have any expet'ieriee of the license law east liefore you came here —Yes. .■{.")S()6. Did yuu notice how it was observed i- I iioticeil that there was a great deal more drinkiiifi; in Port Hope under the Scott Act than there was under li(;ense. .■i.")807. Than when the people were prohibited from usiiiL,' it .' |)fUMkeiiness was more noticeable. Rkv. W. M. 1{()CHKSTKH, of Prime Albert, o foil n Ik'Hilj duly sworn, deposed a- 'I : ..i !i"^ !.-' - :?.")S70. How loni; have you been in Prince Albert? — All that tii City. )S71. Did you come here from one of the other la-ovinces? — From Ontario, Ott ;i.")H7l.'. Was the license law in force tiieref- Yes. ;5.'")S7.'i. Have you haariii;Li; the cot idition of affairs there under the license s\st I'ln with tli.ii prevailing during my brief sojourn there under the Scott Act. Iobtaine('. the opini r the jailor of ( 'ornwall asto the beneti(>ial results of the .\(t wliilsl it was bi'ingenforicii, iis it was at the time of which I am speaking. .■55880. Were you at Cornwall at the lime the .Vet w,is again \iite(| on ano wli en n was rei)eale( (1 / 1" , . 55881. ^'ou notic'd no doubt by the piil)lic journals that the Act was reiiealeil m lei Stormoiit ; I ill 1 not reniembir it. .•}588l'. Tir e permit system was in torce when you laiue here first, and siiiei a license law has been in force .' -Yes. .■i588;{. How (hd you (ind the permit system work .' .My e.xperieiu .Mav Ni )een Aery liim as, of cour- ted, but I noticed that there was cunsiderfdile druiikeniiess amomi' tl men. .■(5884. !)( o \ou Iviiow wiiere the li about it. ii|Uor was olitainei I.' I had lad my own suspici .■{5885. Have you found matters imjiruve since the license law 1 las iteen ei force? T tiiiiik, so far as my observation goes, there has been more drunkenness. .■{588(). Have you called liie attention of the Chief of Police to that ! — No. lid ,'55887. He said tiiat he had found no more drunkenness than jire\ii)Uf?ly ? — Yes, 55888. |)o you approNe of the license l,i .loiiN L. Ukkp. -N. 304 ■ 'I ill 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ■ly INV. i>r tl\rv I'Xllt'll iili th.ii liiiiiiii I'l ■ iitnn-f'i. wlll'll i' )V ODllI-'- ,vis\)ici"i'- Ih'ch I'l ess. -Yes, 1 1" .■?.j880. Are you opjxised to it ? — 1 am. .'(oHDO. And I sujtposo you are in favt)Ui' of j)rolii')iti()iil- Ye.s. .■?r)S!)l. J)(>yi)u tliink it \vr(in<( to liwMisc the traffic I — T thiniv it wiont; to license the traflic. .'{•"it^Dli. ()t' course, you con.si(ier prohibition advisable. Have you had sutlicient c\|ierience to know whetiier it would he practicaltle to enforce a jjeneral proliiltitory l.iw, j)rohil)itini{ the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxiuatinj,' Jiijuoi's for heverajje purposes .' — "We ha\e had no exjierience of national prohihition. 3r)8D."). J udginj,' from tlie ditUculty you had her'e in carryint,' out the law. whiii is your opinion? — I could not Itase my calculations on that. 35891. Have you arrixed at any conclusion ? Do you think it would he enforced I — Ye.s. .•i.")8!»."). Tu all parts of Canada? — Yts. .'5.")80C'). Have you studied the ((UP jcion ? -Somewiiat. .■)58'J7. Let us consider the (pii'stion in reyar '. to the .Maritime Proxiiu'es. Have you ever reen there?- -No. 35898. There is a lont; sea coast and Prince Edward Island is entirely surniunded liy the ocean ; then there is the in preventini,' smujij^ling .'- -No. 35900. Did you hear th(> evidence of the officers as to the fact of liie people u.^in:;- pain-killer and eau de Cologne if they could not get anything else ,' Yes. 35901. ^Yas there not vigilance exercised ! The Police Iwuc Im'imi largely success- ful in keeping out li(|Uor. .")590"_'. You think tiial incessant \igilance woidd l< ;■ liipiur out? ->'es. .3590.'{. Did you hear the evidence to-day about li590i). Do you think it \S(aild be better to retain the present system, ur ha\e hini ii'iiio\ed to some institution with a view to his i-eformation ' 1 think they should lie (il.iced in an asylum foi' inebriates. •■'5',U0. Can vou suggest any better plan .' I would suggest taking iiiime nil respect to the man himself and then taking what steps the law might put in my li'iuer to pi'oteet him, and 1 would still use all my influence in favour of proliibition. ■■>59ll. What steps would you take in regard to the man himself '. .Mora! suasicm. 3591 J. 1 refer to legal steps.' 1 wcuild take advantage of every pi'ohibitoiy el.uise ill till' license law. • i5913. You would iiope to succeed in that! -If thei'e are protective clauses in the incuse law I .ilundil sav they were not jiut there for nothinu. 305 ■2 1 •20'-^->' I ^ ,; ii '! ■-M Liquor Traffic — North- west Territories. 35914. Taking your recollectidu of the influence of the churches and temperance societies and tlic education of the people, liave you found them to be good ? -Yes, most decidedly. Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLvod : ' .Si591o. What influence will the license system have on the younj; men of the com- munity ? Greater oi)portunities for indulj^inji in lifjuors. .'{59 Hi. Do you regard law as an educator ,' It lias that efl'ect. •'{5917. What will he the educational efl'ect of the license law on the young men? — They will take it for granted that what is legalized hy law is all right. .■ir)91S. On the othei' hand, do you think tiio prohibition of the traflic, even though that prohibition be evaded, is an educator on the miiuls of the young people? Yes. .■i.")919. Even if there were freipient violations of a prohibitory law, you think that the effect of the driiik being ilelegalized W(»uld have its effect on the rising generation ? - Y'^es, J am sure of it. .'5r)9"20. Speaking of the .Scott xVct, was your exj)erience such as to enable you to form an opinion as to whethei- it had a good efleet oi- not '/ 1 think so. .■io921. 1 undei'stand you tti say that although the license law has only been in force here for a few months, so far as you could judge there was more drinking than pre viously / Yes. '.\')[)2'2. Are thei-e any influences at work in this connnunity that [irevent the condi- tion of things Ixiing worse, and if so, what are they?--The influence of oui' churches, the work of our temperance societies and orgaiiizati(jns and the general educational influences in operation in this comnuniity. All these influences have been decidedly felt in the conniuniity. :l.")9'J."5. l>o you think the existence of licensed taverns and wholesale establishments in the town contribute to the effectiveness of the moral and religious influences svhicii are in opei-ation herf!? — No, they militate against them. .■!r)924. So you think that under the old system with no licenses, even though tlir law was \iolated, the influences, moi'al and religious, woidd l)e more efl'ectixc than they can be now / -Y'lw, I think so. ;5r)92u. Speaking about moral and religious intluences, it would .seem a little strangr that they did not express themselves in any form of jirotest against the change to :i license law in the Territor'ies ? — 1 am not in a position to say nnich about that, liecausc 1 had hot been here a long time and did nut take any interest in what was going on in the poiifi(.'al woi'ld. Some slight action was taken by the temjierance people of whiili I ani aware, and so far as I am able U) understand the nature of the political campaign this ([uestion was kt'pt out of the i.ssue. I think it is the general impression of the teni perani'e ])eople in this connnunity that proliibitiim versus lic(>nse was not an issue at llir last election, and, therefore, the license law i-^ charL;i;ible with the crystalli/.ation of tlir sentiment in this couimunity. .■?r)9"2(5. You did iu)t understaiRl that the contc-ianls went before the peopli' anil the jieople gave tlieir representatives a mandate to enact the law ? — No. .■{oHl'T. You have said that there has been more drunkenness (jbservable umler the license law. liave there been moie arrests for drunkenness and disorders that grow out of drinking since the license law came into force.' i am under tluMMipression, in fact I feel pretty sm'e that there have been more arit'sts undf'r the license systi-iii. In connection with that, 1 should like to consult the oflicial records of arrests in imU-i \<> ascertain fU'Hnitely the facts. .•».")9-_'S. Would the Town Clerk have those records I— The Town Clerk or the Chin of Police. .'10929. How long have these ceils been in this room in which we are sitting •' - Since we vacated tliis place as a cimreli. .■?i")9.'{0. How long ago f — It is pretty lu'ar one year since we vacated this Ijuildini;, at any rate six months ago. .■i.")9.'U. Were tiiose cells ]>ut in immediately / I think shuitly after we left. .■{ri9."{i.'. Were tiiey put in before tlie license law came into force f — After tlie license law, as far as my memory goes. Rev. W. M. Kochestku. 306 tH) :; I: ^ 'II y\\]\i 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 kimli'i- til'- iit liiiiw is'kmi, i" kU'lii. I" |i 1)1-1 U'l' '" the Clii'-' kiitiny ht't. .■$")!>;}.■(. Were they madt' iuinu'diately after it went into eil'oct? — I tliiiilc so. .'ir)!)IU. Wheie was tiie iock-uj) previous to that ? — I could scairely tell you. .■{.")'.).■(."). ( >f course tliere were arrests made, and tliere woidd ha\e to he a lock-up I sujipose ? — There was a lock-up at the Coui-t-iiouse and the gu ird-rooni at the hai'racks. 351)30. But you think there iiave heen more arrests for drunkeimess and foi' dis- orders connected witli drunkenness since the license law came in than hefore .'That is my impression. /!i/ Jii'/i/r ^frJJunuld : 'Mid'M. To what do you attribute the recent action of the Lejj;islature in passing a license hiw 1 Is it not a fact that this Legislature, fresh from the {)eo|)le, jiassed such a 1-iw ?- -Unless the indisidtial legislators were personally interested. I ilo not know that 1 have ever given it very much serious thought. .■5r)!);5i*<. Can you account for this enactment in view of what you ha\f said as to the lempei-aiice sentiment prevailing, and which I understood you to say prevails through- uiit the whole constituency. Do you mean that the peoj)le elected rej)resentatives who went to the Legislatui'e and misrepresented the feelings of the people in the constituen- cies and passetl a license law /--The I'epresentatives certainly niisiepresented the people with resjiect to temperanci?. .'JotllJO. You think they misrepresent tlie sentiment of the [n'opli; generally /—I cannot speak generally, hut only from my own ohsei'vation as an individual. ^o'.JKJ. Did you liear the statements made hei-e to-day hy men of large experience in regard to enforcing the f)er!nit law, and who dwelt upon the lack of sentiment in the muntry hacking U]i the enforcement of the law / — Yes ."ioU-H. W'Un has the hetter opjiortunities to form an o])inion of the sentiment of llie i)eo])le — tiie Connnissioner and the stall", who aiv going aitout the countiy continu- misly engaged in discovering offenders and discharging their duties, or you, with all respect for you as a minister, going ahout and lahouringin this paiticular sect ion .' I do not Halter myself that 1 icjiresent the tem]ieranci' sentiment with which 1 might lie taniiJiar. hut 1 think there are men who are likely to take more coravct views than the iilliriTs of the police. .'i'l'.IlL'. Tlie ((uestion I asked you was, who would ha\e the; hetter oppurtunity of juilging and ascei'taining the geneial sentiment of tlii' | pie of the North-west i'erri- loiies- those otlicers at all the stations oi' yourself, with your two years' residence in this particular ]iart W the country .' "^'ou did not ask myself personally. :)")!>i."«. 1 ask you this cjuestioii. Wi; have had the oliicers of the MiKinted I'ulire lirt'iire this C'onnnission, s|)eaking what they believed to l)e the sentiment of the cum- Miunity on this i|Ueslion, and they lia\e pointed out the diUlcult jes under which they li.i\e laboured in en< lea \ou ring to enforce the law, and the\ ha \e spoken of t best rung sent i- iiirnt pre\ailing in the Territories in fa\ourof the men who weic engaged in this tratlic. \\\\;\.\ 1 ask is, whether vhose olliceis would be better able to judge the sentiment of the 1 pie of the North-west Territories than you, wlin have been here for Iwn years .' —So t.ii- as my observation goes, the oliicers of thi' law baseil tiieir o|iinii)Us anil eonrlusions I'll what '. ■ \'i'M[. I ask V"'" this ipiestion: who has had the bet ter opportunity of juilginu:, ilir iillicers or you ? I ilo not ask you on what they base that opinion, but I ask vun, "liii has the better opportunity of forming a fail' estimate of the publii' seiiliineiil iliiiiu;.'liout the country -the otHcei's of tiie force, who for Hi or 17 years ha \e been i^nini; about the count rv endeavouring to enforce the law, or you, with your residence lii'ii' ot two years as a ministei' of the gospel ? — So far as I'ejiresentat ive experience goes. I ^liimltl say the oliicers of the law. • >•")'. lb"). Y^iu say you do not think the men who favour prohibition should be called ii]ii.n III suggest how it is to be carried out. 1 )o you make that answer advisedly .' — 1 >:iiil I did not feel it my duty to suggest metliods. ■"I'l'.l K). Why do you not consider it your duty to suggest methods.' If you and tiliiirs are desirious of changing the present system, siiould you not be willing to suggest iiiiilinils to siiow liow the new .system that you propose to cuvvy out will work ,' In the vil'l n mi : f i;i i '' • Ul— L'O.U* 307 I: if Liquor Traffic — Xoith-west Territories. , pi-eseiitiitiuM lit' any I'liiM i>i'(>|»>st'(l to lie sul)stituted for another, tlic pcoiilc nnisi Iwim' souH' idea as to how it slmuld lie oaiTicd out '.' Yes. .'i.')!)!". You would not propose to put this hct'ore llie eoaiitrv as an al)strai't jiropo sition, I suppose? — I am not very conversant with tliesc matters. So far as tlie license system is coneerned, our representatives (hd not put it liefore tiicii' constituencies, tiicy went l)efo|-e tile Leijislature witii it, in the dark. -■{oDtiS, Tliere was no vote taken dii'ectiy on proliihition, I lielieve /--The license .system was not presented or suhniitted to the peojile. ."iuiUy. Is it not a fact that people who are in favour of license claim that ])ulilii .sentiment is in favom' of the enforcement of such a law? — As lej^islators they did that .').")!l.'')0. Y'ou ha\c spoken of the Scott Act havin;; i)eeii hroui^ht into contempt im account of non-enforcement, and for that rtjason it wa.s repealed in Oarleton .' I. tliil not specif v any County. .'{50.")!. Not in re;L;ard to Carleton, where it was repealed? I cannot an.swer. .■{■■')'J.')2. Tn what County did you mean it was rej)ealed ? The statement F made, >n far as I can rememlter, was this : that at the time when certain counties occupied iii\ nttenti(jn, my conclusion was tliat the Act was brought into contempt hy non-enforcc ment. .■i.595.'$. Name one County? — I cannot name any of them; I am simply f^ivin;; i summary of my conclusii. How lonu: have you resided in Prince Albert ? --Eleven years. ;!.")!).")"). How lont; have vou heen in the North-west Territories ?- -The same lini' .■^'ii).')(). Prom what County did y ou come ■riand, Ontario. :{.j!».")7. 1 su ? — T came from th(> (.Viunty of NortI pp: a licen.se law was in force there Cnvil I came to ili' Northwest Territories, T never tasted li(;uor in any .shape. ;{r)0.")S. Have you had experience of a prohibitory law anywhere else '. No. .■?."»'.ir)(t. So your e.\])erience has heen here ? — -Yes, what experience I have had. I have watch(>d verv cai'efullv the drinkini; customs of the (If people, and trom my oliserv ai mn 1 think there is less di'inkiiig jier capita than at any tim(> since [ came to the Territi T refer to drinkinj.; to excess. .■{5iM>(). Have you watched the operation of the license law ? Y^ .■{."')!t(i I . Since it has com" into force do you think (here has ])v )eeii increased (liiin 1 N. When I lirst Kenness done to excess ; ukmi would ijet in here, all the drinkint; done, siieakiii!; iiCiieiaJK , • ) or ( iiallon k .f li (luor an( 1 drink it ail ai sitting, effect If like mvself refused to take it, it seemed to have almost tl le lis sla|i]iin;; a man (tn the face would have. That was followed hv illicit I'Lur: in"' established here. F have seen as niany as five or six, and I know atoneiiim tliere were seven here. That nunibei' also re]iresented the illicit stills that were ru inniii,' lere at tiu^ time F do not know the lilt of trade done, but takiiiy; one man \vliii may be said to be a fair representative of the rest, he told mo while I wasdefendini: liim once for an infrin<.'ement of the law that he has made as hiijli as .''^lOO a dav from sale-. I was en;,'ai;ed tiotli in |irosecutinLj and defendim; those jiarties. :i.")!M;L'. What has been v courts Th our exper'enci in rci.arc 1 t. evuleiice given ■tori is a most injurious law in thi.s country, that if the evidence nt' jirosecutor or the informer should convict, he obtains one-half of the fin lie !?IUO or .S-00, and therefore he has an interest in the case to that extent. I ihi' winch u'liiiii JFkV. W. ^F. FioCIIKSTKIi. 308 pf^T'TT 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ISt llllVl' t ]lf()l»l • lici'lisc U's, tlicy lit ])\il>lii' (lid iImH t(;nii>t nil ,!--iai.l iniiili', Ml upii'tl \\\\ ii-cufoiii' \- tiiviui; a ,(;in;j; iluly WW tllur. Nmi-iIiiimi 1,. to ill" vv had. 1 h^I'l'Vilti'iH ■ n-itnrii-;. ijiscd dnni- Tidly, v:i> it all ^11 ■' the sum' liii'it l'l:i'''^ it dlU' 'illll' ,|.(. I'uiiniiiu' man "I"' riidiii'- liini )111 salr . 1 'hct'oiv 'li' t d.' ■lu'f >> lldrli v 1 d(. think I t'ouiid iiimc ihiiii niiL' man who made a [iracticc of niriiuiij,' siicii chaij^rs wliusc cvidfiuf T I'uidfl Ixdicvc, and several siidi mcin liavc e'omc iict'oi't' me in my time. 1 have prrivt'd cases hy them aiirew(>d ale they called it. It was sometliiiii; almost as stroni^ as whisky, I uiuh'istanil, and made in the country, and otlu-r suhstitiites for liipior such as were named to-day. There were used hay-rum, hair restoratives and such thinys. I rememher >.ome peojile drinking from a liottle lahelled " hair restorative/' and the formula given was tincture iif li(|uors. .l.")!)!)."). Ila\e you known anything of the kind of compounds ii.sed since the license law has come into fore.- .' Since the licen.se law has come into force a great change has taken ])Iaee. .\ number of men, who were in the haliit of taking lii|Uor, have stop|ied drinking: in fact, a large numlier of men liave for some ine.xplicalile reason stopped drinking entirely. ^ly own impression is that they drank to excess hefore for the reason that men are a|)t to take what is forhidden them. A great many wrvr deteiiiiined to consume liipior hecause it was forhidden. 1 do not agree in the o]iiiiion (•\]iressed to-day that the cessation from drinking has heen due to moral and religious iiillueiices on the community. I lielieve it is hecause liipior is now sold openly in a legal way. Tiiere is oidy one place here where li(|iior is sold, and 1 do not go there to drink. Ill fact. I do not take a drink more than once in three or six months, l)ut 1 liaxc gone to that place on husint'ss once a while, and I ha\c' found \crv little liipior sold. I have seen •"> or I jilaces running in this town with twice as much sale going on under proliihi- tioii as there is now under license and open .sale. .'!.". '.II If). In case of the enactment of a general |>roliihitoi'y law, would you deem it ii!;lil til. '.I lirewers and distillers should rec(Mve remuneration for their plant and iiiachiiieiy rendered useless f -That would depend altogether on the conditions on wliiili they entercMl into the Inisiness. Tf they were given to unileistand that a pmlii- liitiiiy law might he jiassed and these rights taken away from them, then I do not think ihey >li(iul(l IxMemunoratod ; hut if not. then I think they should receive some imii- pi'iisalion. •"p."i'.M)7. it has heen slated that laws have heen )i,isscd to compel them to ]iul in iiiiaiu iiiachiiiery for the manufacture of li(|uor, those orders heing issued \i\ n depait- iiii'iit of the ( ioveinnient ! I am not familiar with tliiM' facts. .'i.^MlS. .Moreover, the dis! illers are reijuired to kieptheir liijUor for a certain leii;.;ih lit' I iiiie for purposes of rectiticat ion .' I ai t >ulliciei iy familiar uilli the siiliject ti. "l" ik on tliat point. .i.'Dtill. Soil would, ill vour opinion, depi ni on circumstances siirroiindiiig the iiiile as to whether distillers and hrewers were entit'ed to remuneration or not .' Vi-.. ."i.'i'.lTO. ho you know anything of the use of light >vine. and :iles '. I know the use "t I'liir per cent heer had a very had elVect in this country. i'or exain)ile : The lii|Uor ».i^ sold here and called cider. It was the vilest trash that was ever invented or com- liiiiiiided, and the man who houuht it had heen onlv a vear or so in the countrv. ^^fter ... ~ • • • iliinkiiig s(»me of the stuff, he was arrested for attempted murder. He was charged afiiivvards with a lighter offence and was fined. He lived in the ciaintry foi' a year or two ■ it'tii w.ii'ds, and his Indiaviour, holli hefore and after the case to which I have referred, ^>ii^ f.iir. and he was a very lespeetahle citizen. I attrihule that incident entirely to 309 !,. 'iil ii! ;i i '■: Ml ■ Mi :1' i ', !- ; Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. tlm li(|inir lie (Ir'iuik. llful li*- merely driiiik lieer or li{{ht wine he would liiive been (Iriiikiii;^ all tin; time, hut he was cured hy that experience. .■i.")l)71. Can you su;,',Ltest to the Commission any amendments tliat would make the law moic workable '. — The only su;;L;estion I can oH'ei' is that greater eare should In tak< en Ml issuni'' licenses ni <'iaii itry places. I do not refer to any jiaiticular district or place, lint the places established for sale of li([uor under the eyes of the Indians should be well looked after, more so than at present. ")!I7-. Do vou as to tlie character of the man to whom the li cense is issued The trade cannot bt- surrounded bv too many restrictions, and it would be safei — I es. to issue no licenses at all 111 some districts. B;/ Rer. Dr. M,'L.„d: :\h\)~t:\. Y(ai think the restrictions are ri^iit restrictions of the law here are rii;ht. 'es, certainlv, and I believe certai .'t-")tt7 b .\re the rest;rictions sutlicient ; are they all y(air jiid^iiieiit Nsould sug^iest, Id to them .' -I would rath<'r refer voii to tliosi? who are mor(^ familiar or woiilil vou a( with such matters, the Mounted Police. I have heard some of theirevidence liivcn here today, and I certainly endorst; what they have said. .■>."il)7-"). You have said that there is less driiikiiii; per capita since the comiiif^ into IS before in the Xortli-wcst Territories ? — Si operation of the license law than tliere wa: I ha\ e been here. ■■(■")1I7<). How loii<; is that/ — Eleven and a half year.s. :>-")!t77. Have you observed pretty closely how the license law has been carried since it came into operation in May? — Yes, here, but I have not been much in the country. nee out ,y-KU I7S. Y ou mean liert e m the town Ijilt I have been in some country places where they are selling, and from all I saw I do not think any abuses have taken )lace. wi til the exception of the case of which 1 spoke, and in regard to wliicli v( careful restrictions should be e.vercised. .■i-")lt7'.>. You rtifer to sales in tlie \icinity of Indians or the native inhabitants of the country .' -Yes. .■i.")!)SO. Y'ou ''(insider li(|Uors are jiarticularly injurious ici them? — Yes. .■>.")itSI. Do you agree with tiie statement made by ^Ir. Red, the riidian Commis- sioner, and other otlicials, that e.xtra [irecautioiLS have had to be taken, and recpiire to be continued, because of the licensing of the sale of drink in the neighbourhood of nilians aiK I other.' .■(."iDSl*. Do vou think the drink trade is not as dangerous to white men as ti Tndi t^iite I f; ;i.")!tH.'}. I'nder the permit system w.is li(|uor kept away effectually from the Indian iiu • it w; y :i .")."iUm4. Mut it was not kept away as well from the whites '. Xo, I could not sa was kept away entirely. .Xfy knowledge of the drinking is merely from hearsay, but I think it is magnilied here as much as down (^ist, if not a great deal more. ' .■J.'iilS.'i. it would seem, then, that prohibition was a iienetit to the Indians in that it kept li(pini liffe / — Y'es. .■!.j!l!t."), l)id you inform tiic autlioritics ,' -No. .'iniCM. What chisscs of pcuplc ;,fot tht'ii' h(|Uor from tliosc |iiaci'« ; wfri- thcv pcopie who draidc pain-killer and such preparations/ — Yes; some people would drink anvthini;. .'{r)!l!)."). I understand you have known driidr)'J'J(). You do not attri))ute the ehan;,'e that has taken place — for the lietter you think line at ail to the relij,'ions and temperance inllueiices at work in the country '. -- Not at all ; they nmy have had some ettect. T think that since men can now drink lei;ally all the li\)7. So it woulil not he well for tlit^ tem])erance societies and churches to con- tinue their work and their reforms .'-'reni]ieranc(( societies are doini,' a Lfreat deal of ^'(lod, hut it is a fact that tlu'y are only assistiiii,' in a small way. I cannot concede to them the marvellous change in the (h'iid'iinir liahits that has taken place here this siinnner ; I do not heliove it is due to them. ;i59y8. Do you attrihute that to the license system '. 1 attrihute it in a way totlm le;,'ali/,ation of the tratiic — it is almost phenomenal. .'i.llliMt. Y'ou think it is incredilile ? — Y''(;s. I know that two or three liave given up drinking, and they i' i not helong to temperance societies or to any church. •'tOOOO. You spoKe of some man dying here from the had efl'ect of theli(|Uor hrought in under permitor snniggled in ? —From the excessive useof deleterious li(|tior, ■'iCiOOl. Did you ever know of peoi)le dying from effects of liipior ohtained froni pec)ple who were licensed '. — Yes. •'5000:2. So the death was not attrilnitahle to license tjr non license, lint to the li(|uor ,' — [t was only attril)utal)le in that case to the had effect of the lifpior ; the e\f raordinarv luunlier of cases here was due to that cause. the I'eijresentative; -Yes. for this district in the) JOTfN W. hl-yiTS, M.A.L., of Prim.' .Vlhert. mer.hant, oj. l.eing 00.'<. I understand you are one of Leijisiature of the North-west Territories '.- :'i(i004. How long have you resided in the Territories/ — l"i years. • liiODlf^ Have you resided all that time in Prince Alhert J — Y''es. .lI'iOO"). Did you come originally from Ontario? — Y'es. •"i(iOO<). From what County .' — From the County of Leeds. • idOOT. When you li\ed tln're, was thei'c a license law in foicc- .' ^'es. .1 tiw of the counties of the province under the S<'ott Act. I rcmemlier at Na|ianee or Picton tliey hatl the Duiikin Act in forct; hefore I left. •'ilJdOS. Then your only experienci* of prohihition is what you ha\e seen in the Territories .' — Yes. •')()009. T)uriiig vour resi lence hei't> T suppo.se the permit system was in force up to May last; -Y^'s. ■ itiOIO. Since then the license law has heen in operation '. ^'es. ■ itiUl i. Are you ahle to expi'ess an opinion as to the working of the present system ? — Of course I was strongly oppt)sed to the permit .system. T helievi- the results were not at all satisfactory, and no per.son could he directly charged with the fault. T am salistied in my own mind that the license law is a henetit from my experience of i* in other places. 811 ri'ere were licnnox or I tlii t '! !!!1 Liquor 'I'niftic — iTorth-vvest Territories. III. 1 I 1 J' ;<60ll.'. Of course it would not he projxT tluit any l)i)(ly sufli as ihis ('uiiniiissidri should in((uiro into tlio pci-sonal motives of any mpnilici- of tlio r^fiiislatiuc. Imt will you tell us this; how did iIm^ Note stand in the AHsend)ly in iT;L:aiil to the passing,' of the license law ; I am not just able to say. I think, speakini; from menioiy, that, with tiie exception of three or four, every memlier of the As-ieniiily was in favour itf a, lif'cnse law. The only difference was as to the line tiielaw should take. There weic some whf> helieved in a jirohihitory law and s(tme were in favoin- of fi'oo tralfic The stand I took was for hii,'li license and a vei'v strict license law. •'idol.'), lias the f.e;,'isiatin'e |)assed a law which contains very thorough provisions for its enforcement '. l''or llie lirst law enacted it was not had. |)urinj,' tliela>.t session of the As.send)ly several amendments were passed, wliicli ;;ave ;,'reateri)owers to the district Connnissioners and Ins|(ectors to enforce the law. ()f course it was an oversijjht thai these ))rovisions were not inserted in the l>ill hefore. .'{liOl I. i'^'om your e.xpi'rience of the license la\\ , do you consider it prcferahic to the old system '. Yes, very much so. :}60l"). Is that your observation as a citizen ( — Yes. ."UiOKi. Will not the present system destroy the tem|)eraiice feeiin;.( .' J do not think .so ; I think it is steadily growin,:; throughout the country. The licensing of the tratlic together with the moral iidluences that will lie Itrought to iicai-, and especially impro\('o])le bringing in liipioi-. They said that their main ditliculty was due to the fact that the strong sentiment of the })eople was unhappil\ not behind them, assisting them to carry out the law? It is ve)-y ditlicult no doubt tc .secure conviction in many ca.ses, and this was genoi'ally owing to the fact that the pen jile's sympathies were rather with \\\o men who violated the law. ■'itlO'JIi. A\'e have ia'ard that violations were in favour with the people of tlic com nuinity ( -Yes, no doubt of it. .■{G0l.'4. Have you considered the question of granting comjiensatioii to brewers ami distillers in the event of the ]iassing of a general prohibitory law, a law pi'ohibitiug tin manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liipmrs for bext'i'age |mrposes? .My own opinion is that they sho qlil lie remunerated. They have been compelled by law t. Will you state brietly what are the benetits of the license law as you have observed them? I claim that so far as my observation has gone that there is lessdrink- iug and less drunkenness under the license system. .ioiiN W. 1*)|;tts. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'idO'Jli. SdiiH' witlii'sscs liinc ti'stilicd tlial tlicic mm'Iiis to lie iiii ilirTi';i>(' .' I iim only cxiiresNirii; my own npiniiiii. ( )t' courso thi- Cniiimissioii will have llir .N[;ij,'istnitp'.s ii'|i(iits (if fnn\ i<'t ions. .'KiOllT. \N'ill (linsc icpnrts slmw llic t';icts ? -It wciiild liardly Kc tail In cciiniiaif the iwd systems until the next scssiun, wliicli will l)c next .Ijinuiirv. Tlii' rccciid of last year iinilci' tlif permit system and tlie Mauist rate's re|i()rt tell \ery liein ily against the morality lit' the |ieo|)le, ;i()l»l!S. Was tlie (|uestiuii of license law or |iiiiliil)i( ion the chief issue at ihel.ist general election I- I eainiot say. 1 ran as ii striniient license law man and in favour of a law similar to local option. ' •nc of my opponents ran as a pinhiliit ionist. :n;i)-_»ll. Was he defeated ^ Ves, he'only polled U votes. .iCiO.'iO. VVa.s it because he was a prohibitionist? It would not be fair losay that. .'it)0."il. You would not say that that was the issue? — -No. .'iIKKSl'. Two of the witnesses ha\c said that it was not an issue : others ha\estate(l that that issue was forced on the constituencies more or less in certain places but it was scarcely one of the issues before the country .' So far as my district is concerned that is a fair way of puttitij^ it. I tried to make it an issue, but I was not altoi,'ether .suceess- fid. and very many temperance |)eo|)le \oted for me althouj,di they knew I was a license man. I suppose, however, they felt, as I felt, that a license law would be liefter tiiail I lie |»ennit system. lido;?:!, '^'ou consider they were of that i>iiinion '. I ha\e no doubt about it. ."iliO.'U. You think the feelinj; of tlie jieople was ajjainst the late system ? Yes. .'!(iO:i."). Was it ajjai list the perm it system or aj;ai list prohibition? — Aitainst proliibition. .'itiO.'ili. They did not like tlie prohibition. To which of the two systems had they I he ;,'ieater objection ! ■] was simply savin ic that the st ron;,' objection of the ]ieoplc was 111 prohibition. .■)(ilj;!7. What reason led you tie(l in legislatinj; on the ipiestioii of liinior. ."iCiQ.'iS. ])o you think it would have been well to ha\e appealed directly to the peo- ple to have ascertained theii'willon this (juestioii ! ^'ou mean in the way of a plebi.seite.' • iliD.'C.t. Yes,' I do not think it would ha\cbeen well. I claim that the peojile must educate themselves on these i|uestions and thus 1 nal)led to select proper repre- sentatives, f do not beliexe in holding an eleclioii on e\-ery (|uestiiin on which it is ^iip]iosed that a law must be passed. •''>t')040. Do you think it would liaxc been well to ha\e had the ((iiesiioii tested at 1 lie ]iolls and representatives selected with special reference to it ( I think it would liave been as well. •i'iUn. I understand that, in your o)iiiiioii, undei' the license l,iu tin- liipioi trade will bo better secured ! — Yes, 1 think so. ■'UiUtL'. Was there non-enfoieement under the old system, or, in ol her w mils, \ iola- 1 inns of the jiermit system ? — There was really \eiy little enforcement .ibout it. You liail the riirlit under that system of oblainini; a ]ieiniil to import lii|nor fur your own use, and if you secured a ]ieiniit. you brought it in. •'iOlJb'i. Then the .system came by and by to lie one iiermillinu the iin])orlalion ueiierally of foui' per cent beer for sale ? — I think that lessened coiisumiition of stroiiir lii|iiiir, althouifh i was ne\er of the opinion ihal it was a wise step to take. I may say, liii\ve\('r, that it did lessen the coiisuni|>tioii of stroin.' liijuor. • itUlll. I )o you think a measure of prohibition sudi as was had here, with ]iermits included, may be rei,'ar(h'd as a test of the reliability of jirohibit ion ! Yes. I do nut, liMucver, believe in loeal prohibitory laws. •liiOl."). Doyou beliexe in a national prohibitory law ! -Yes : I bcliexeit isjiossible 111 c.u'fy out such a law. •if')(JK». I )o you bi'lieve that it wiiuld be possible to c.irry out .i national prohibitory 1.1 w ' r do. ill ■^ i ' 'l 1 1 ;l !l i I i i ■ 1 i i 1 n:i • U] I ;• il Li(iuor Traffic — North-west Territories. ;ifi()l7. < )t' inilisc ynii lii'lic^c llial it' tlicic was iMit'iirct-ini'iit nf surli a law, it wniild III' lit'iii'licial ' I lii'iicM' it wimld lie liiMii'Hi'ial to tlic rniiiiti'V, III/ Jiuhjf McDditiild : .'itilltS. Tfow (III ytwi |ir(i|iii.sr tip I'lit'iifct' ifctii'i'ul piuliiliit inn ; nr liavcyim rimsiili'icil the (itli'stiuii at all '. Nn, I iiavi' nut i-iiiisidrrcil it at all. I tliiiiiv the < IiiM'liiiiH'iit sliuulil I'olisitli'i' till' i|iii'stiiiii. .'HiOl'.l. Till' (illici'i's lit' till' .Miiuiilt'd I'lilicr havi' >|iipkrii nf tin' laru'r iiiiaiititii's ut' lii|U(ji' simi;;jilt'(l into the Territorii's tVotn tlio I'tiittul States and liiixf ti'stilicd that tlicy t'oiind it iin|)iissil)lt' to kccji sncli liinioi' out. '("akin;; tin- vast i-xti'iit of (liis nmnti'v tVoin till' Atlantif to till' I'aiilii' and tlir coast lini' ot' tliis I toniiiiion, I ask w lii'l li'.T you lia\r ever considered seriously tin- i|Ui'sti(iM of kcepini,' liijuor out of this roniitry ,' If it uoiild he u liiMieiit to the couiitiy, keep it out, let thi^ exiiense In; w hat it limy. .'itiontj. In on h.T to curry .sucli a liiw and enforcH it successfully, would you need a |irej)iiiideraiu'i' of sentinieiit in favour of it f Do you mean a preponderance of sen tin lei it to enforce the law f .'iCiO'il. Do you think the prepondeiiince of sentiment in favour of such a la« is so jireat as would eiialile you to enforce it .'— Ves, my o]iinioii is liased'oii the assumption that there is in the ]>ri of Canada a striiii<{ sentiment in favour of prohiliition. 'M\0')'l. If that sentiment exists, you think it should lie crystalli/ed into an Act of I'arliainent f — The ( Jovernmeiit should not hesitate to enact such a law and lind meaii^ to enforce it. 3t)0.');{. What means would you suj;;;est in the North-west Territory other than those you liiive had i' -If licjuor is not manufactured in the country the ditlieulty of aft'urdinsi ]iri>toction against siniii;i,dinif would not he so yreat as now. IHiO.'il. What other dilticulty ajiplies near the lioundary ? The ditliculty of private distillation is one that has had to lie fiiuj;ht in the old country, and some means should he lirought to hear here as well as there. :{(iO")."). r suppose you have considered ])r,ict icallv the details .' No. i);; 0- il THOMAS McKAY, .M.L.A.. of I'rince AHiert. farmer, on lieing duly sworn, deposed as follows : Hi/ Jilili/r McDiilKllil : ;5G0."i(i. I understand you are a meinlier of the Legislative As-^emlllv of the North west Tei-ritories '! — -Yes : I am a rejire.sentative of Cumli(M'land. ■iCiO.")?. Were you a memlier of the last Letfislatuie '. No. .'Ui0.")8. How lonj,' have you lived in the Territories; I was liorn in the Territoric- aiul have lived here ever since. .'iCiU")!). LSefore the pcMiuit system came into force what .system was in force wit li regard to the sale of liquor / — There was free trade in the country. .'{(iOdO. Then there was no license law in force '. -No : not at all events in the Noi'th-vvest Territories. ."iCiOdl. AN'ere there no regulations under the Hudson ISay Company.'- The Com pany did not regulate it. The Indian.s came in large parties and stayed around the forts oft»;n tVir a year, and endeavoured to get all the liijuor they could. After that tin- Indians would go to the hunting grounds. .'JtjOtii!. Among the white peo]ile was there free sale ; -Yes. .'{(iOti.S. Were there j)lai;es where liquor was sold .' The Company would not sell \>< those who made a bad use of it. .■UiOlU. I believe the Hudson I'ay Company stopped the sale of liquor in IST).!. lfo\^ did the peojile'get liquor after that .'—-My traders. .I<»H\ W. J5i;tts. •.\u 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .illlMi."). W'liiil kind (if lii|ii(ir w/is sdid ' (iund, luid and iiidill'cit'iit, a ijnud ileal nt' llic pKuicr (nialitifs. ."i(i()()('). Was tlifrt' lint a lii|iiur call.il tlic ('ciiii|iaiiy's riiiii .' Iliidsmi l>a\ iiiiii. .")(i(Mi7. Wert' (lie |i('ii|il(' in llnisc davs .sulicr |M'i)|i|r .' ^'cs ; llicri' wa-. iml a t{iral (leal lit' drimkt'iiiit'ss. .'iiilK'iS, At'tiT I 111' 'i'l'irilDiii's caiiii' iindi'i' tlif ciiiitinl of Canada, we iiiidristaiid lii|iuir iMiuld 1)1' liad under permit .' The liijiii'i liad In lie ;,'(it tVitiii t he Ciiniiiaiiy s siuies, and it tniik a lull}; time to nlitaiii it. 'Ilie ( 'iiiii|)aiiy's nltieei's emiid mily inaUe a trip iiiiee a year tu j,'et a Mi|iply, and the supply uinild nut last a year. .'itiOti',*, What ilass iit' people w ere selliiii,' at that lime, were they |iedl IIS .' ^'e.s. .'(Ii(»7l). 'I'hey would peddle other ;,'oods, I suppose, as Well ;is liijiiorf Ves, hut siiine had liipior only those in this part nt' the Tenititries. All aloiij; here and near ^'lll■k l''aclory they dealt in liipior exclusivuly. .'i')('7l. 'riieii we understand the permit system eaine into force. I>iil \ou see the woikin;; of it ! Yes. •'ttiU'l!. I)id you lind it work salisfailoiily '. No. not \ery. ^ItlU".!. l>id you hear the evidence of the .Mounted Police uiveii liefiire ihe ('omiiiis- simi today .' -No. •"itiOTI. Then you do nut know the extent of the dilliculties with which they had to lonleiid ill i'e;;ard tu the siiiUL;i,diu}; iif liipmr into t he 'I'erritories ,' I do not kiiou of I hem. hut I was in the country hefore I hem and have seen the matter tor myself. .'il'iU""'. I >o you refer to the siiiu;,';,'lin;,' ? Yes. .'(tlOTt). Latterly of i'uui'sesnui;;j;liii;,' increased, and the permit .system liecameafailiire. Ii has heen su<;j;ested that the increased issue of |ieriiiits was owin;; to the i|uantity of siiiuj.'j,'led liipiur that came fruiii the I'nited States and that it was thuu,<{ht hetter to increase the i|uaiitily of liipior l)ruin;lit in under jiermit and have it uf it hetter class; a'l'i that as people came into the Territories they olijected to the law liecaiise they had Iways heen accustoiiied to ha\inij; all the liipior they wanteil. The people were not accustomed to have liipior in the Territories. .'iliUTT. >So it was really an arraiii;eiiit'nt to meet the popular demand .' Yes. ;)()()7f<. A\'e understand that the North-west Lciiislature at its last session passed a license law. Ila\e \ ou ul)ser\ed its wiirkinij since it came intu force.' Nut very much. .','i()7'.i. Have yuu ul)scr\ed the uperatioii of the law, and in yuur upinion does it Work very wcill t- ^'es. .'!(i()f<(). Are there any siiif;;estiuns you can otl'er to the Comiiiission with respecl to aiiieiidments of tiie law '. Ni>, not so far as the North-west .\ct is concerned : we have UMile what amendments are considered necessary. .'itiOSl. Have you considered tht> (|uestiun ni yrantini; remiineratiun to hrewers and iljstillcrs in case uf the onactnuuit of a jieneral jiroiiiliitory law, for their ]ilaiit anil machinery rendered useless,' I have never j,'i\en that (]UPstion any coiiMderat ion. except ill a general wav. ."iliOSi;. You liaxe had no licenses here. I understand .' I liclieve all lcu;.ili/.ed lircwers should receixe compensation, hut I ha\e nex'er LCone into that i|uestioii. I .M \i t i (■' ^ Mi ' . .11 ' I'r i :'! !' I ; 315 Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. m I! i!'l ;.i!i I !1 JAMES P. A. STl'LL, of Prince Alboit, tciulior m.kI Clerk of tlip Municipality, on lu'ing liiily sworn, ileposed as folio\v.■^ : — Bt/ Jmlye McDonald : ' ;^()08.'i. How lont^ nave you li\c(] in tiie Nortii-wt'st Territories? — I have lived here ince July, 18f<5. ;<60S4. Have you lived any where else in the Tei- '.tories besides Prince Albert .' — Xn, SGOS."). l)i(l y(ju come herefrom Ontario?---! came here direct from -Manitoba, l)ut frcjm Ontario formerly. ;i()08('>. From what county did you come ? — From Wellington. 36087. How long is it since you left Ontario? —10.1, years. ,'$0088. In those days was there a license law in force? — Yes. ;>i)08!t. Have you had any e.vpericnce of ;'. pi'ohibitoi'v law anywhere else than in the Territories ?- - No. ;'iG090. What has been your exijerience as to the success of the law as it was carried out? — It was not a success as it was woi'ked. ;)(10!tl. That was under the pern)it system ? Yes. .■{()0l)2. Have yoif observed the operation of the license law since it come into force? —Yes. .'. Do you mean within a corres]>oiKling length of time? — Yes. ;i(i0iK). Have you the record made up to sliow that? There were two persons fined in 18.S9 foi- drunkenness, one in 18'.(U, tliei'e were f lur p-'r.sons liiy>d in 1891 and one in 1S92 pi'ior to the Lst of May, and there base iieen fifteen since. ;i(>()97. 1 )oes the town ri'ceive a re\('nue under the license law ? The town receives the tines. .■i(i()9S. 1 »oes tl'c town receive any [iroporliou of the lieense fees ? Ves, they recei\ e fees for licenses for the hot(>l and wholesale establishments, .>? 17-") foi' each license, making §.")•_'•"). .■!(i()99. Have not all the persons who haxelieen fined been wnal ai'c called repeaters .' — I think on. or two were. .MilOO. Have you anything to do with the iaspection of licenses .' No. ,'U)101. H; .; the general order of the community been atlected by the change in tin- law? — I think it has lieen vovy nuich. .■i()10"_'. Is that according to your observation ? -Yes. .'U)10:5. Have you consiik're ' the (piestion of prohibition? Yes. ;56104. In case of the enactment of a geneial prohibitory law, would you fa\"our the granting of compensation to brewers and distillers for lo.ss of jilant and machineiy .' — No. unless the distillers and bi'ewers would also place agairst it the loss occasioned to hundreds of families by di'ink. ;)()1 (),"). You would lia\e the accounts bidanced, 1 suppose? — ^'us. ."idlOfi. ^'ou tlesire to considei both sidi>s? Yes, •U)107. And, as the l)alance shows, so you would ha\e the demand met? — Yes. .'U)1U8. Taking the license system as you ha\e found it and seen it in operation, have you any amendments to s,,ggest ? — No, anil 1 am not in favour of a license law. /)'// A'-r. Dr. Mr /.rod: 3G109. 1 think you said tliat tlie order of the town had been atleciiMl by the enaci- nient of the license hiw? Yes, by dri!d\ing. .■itillO. V'ou think disord(>rs lia\e increased ! —Yes. I thiid<, houe\ cr, that so i'ai as the townspeople tl'eiMselves are concer'nt' MrDn,„i/,{: •Sfilll. Was tlio tnjuiilt' with lliosii who eaiin' in tVoiii outside .' — Yes. ■■50112. Were tliey white men or Halt-breeds? — .Some ov them were HaU-ljift'ds. .■{(il i.'i. Were t!iei-e aiiv full Indians '. No. I think thev were ill Half hteeds. . ii <■ ■.■o'> Ml I' ■ati'in. (•iiiii't- so lar .t' laii- list till' ll(|UOl Vkni-uahi.k .V!{CHDKAC()N McK AY, ot Prince Aihei-t, Clerk in Holy Onlers and Airlideacon of Saskatchewan, on heing duly sworn, deposed as follows : — Jii/ Judy Mr/)tiiiitl(l : .".1)111. How loni; lta\'e yt)U resided here? — 1 was horn in the Northwest Tcrri tiii'ies. ."Uill-"". How loiia ha^e you resided in Prince Albert ? — Since ISST. F came her(> six ve.'irs |ire\ioU'ir getting li(|Uor. The only reliabt'.' information I lia\(' come across was about their getting li(pior or getting liipior brought to them. I WIS for a few weeks among the Indians on a reserve. .An Indian in whom I have great confidence uild me that liipior had been brought on th:>< reserve. The li(|Uor had been lirought there by men who were traders, aiul there was a lot of drinking going on. ."Ull 19. As a citiziMi of Priiu'e .\ll)ert, Ivtvi' you luiticed any change in the habits of tlie people since the new law came into force? -I am luit very much in the town and 1 cannot speak from my own oliserxation as to tiie change generally, but I can .say this, that I have seen more drunkeiuu'ss since the license! law came into force than I ever saw before within the sanu' time during my visits to Prince Albert. 1 am iiere occasionally on business, I repeat that I have seen more drunkenness on the streets than I ever Siiw before. .'iiilJO. hid you see under the permit system, men anrolnbitioii would be ilie moral sentiment of the countrv vvas in favour of it. an *: Mi ■I t : :'i 111 ■|ii j • 1 il'. f I ■ >u 1 i ; : i a good thing? — Yes, , do, if A prohibitory l;iw eoi id not i ! 1 In '-- Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. be carried out unless that was the i^ase. l'n(loul)te(lly i^ruhiliition would be a good tiling, if it could be carried uut. Jti/ Judijf Mrlhiiiidd : ■ 36126. You have the voice ot' the I lenplc speaking thi'ough their i'epreseiitati\es in the Legislature that enacted this law which has been in force in the North-west Territo- ri'-S a nund)er of years ? -Yes. •'56127. 1 undei'stand you did not find it a success, and it coulil not be enforced? — Y''ou mean the jterniit system. .'56128. Yes. — No, it was not a success. .'56129. Do you tliink it would have been successful if there had been more ]>ul)lic sentiment in favour of it : wouki you not re([uire to iia\e.such weight of public sentiment as would make it clear that the law must be observed .'—1 should certaiidy juilge that the success of a prohibitoiy law must dei)end on the amount, so to speak, of jiublic sentiuHMit at the back of it. .■561.'{U. It is found in regard to the license law that theprohil)itory clauses forbid- ding sale on Sundays and in certain hours on week ilays, coimnend themselves to the whole connnunity .' Yes. .■i61;51. 8() if the olticials look after the observance? of the law, they can secure its proper enfonenient, foi' nobody would object to its enforcement. Have you considered that (juestion in connection with the subject of prohibition. Do you not think that you would have to obtain such a weight of sentiment in favoui' of prohibition as would lead to the practical enforcement of it .' — Yes, I should jufige so. A |ii'ohibitorv law ^vould l)e mori> or less successfully carried out according to the amount of public senti- ment in its favour. .■{61.']2. We must take the country from ocean to ocean. .Su]ipose we had the Mai'itime Provinces strongly in favour of prohibition, (Quebec against it, Ontario unde- cided, Manitoba strongly in favour and liritish Columbia sti'ongly against it, would you hope to sf.-cuic its success in those sections opposed to prohibition, or to enforce it as strictly .as you would liojic to do in this pro\ince where puMic ojiiiiion was strongK in its favour,' — It would be more likely to be observed if there was pi'oiiibition iill o\cr the Dominion than if there was ijrohibiticm in one section of the country. .■!6I."5.'5. Would vou not find it more easy to enforce nroiiihition in I where the sentiment is stronulv in its fa\inir than in tin timent was stronith ayainst it >ro\ uices wnen IJniloubtedlv. l>ut I would consider it wo us pro ]>ul)lic uld be c to enforce it in those pi'ovinces wlieri' the sentiment was against it if there was a general prohibitory law for tli(> whole Dominion, bec.iu.se I <|uite .agree with what I heard one of the witnes.ses say, I tliink it was 'Sir. ]>etts, that the feeling of a yood many people in the Tei'i'itories was that they were i-estricted in icgard to tlie sale of iii|Uor, uhieli was allowed ni I'tlier j>laei d t ie\- rehel d an'ainst lieini,' treated dill'erentlv froi tl leir nei 'hi JOUl'S. .'56i;51. That .sentiment, led, of course, t o non ol)servance it the I J a certain extent at li-ast. th tional .'5<)1.'^-"). In ease of the enaetnient of a general prohibitory lav il> 1 thii vKAt'oN MoKav. 318 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 PETER ROBERTSON, of Prince Alheit, Cliief of Police, leciillwl. By Rev. Dr. McLeod .- .'ifil.SG. Have you tile records of tlie arrests ? — I have tlie record of arrests since lilt' license system came into force. :J()l;57. Have you the record of arrests previously? — Yes. .'i()l."?.W.T., between tiie 1st of ?' ',y and the 1st of November, 18'ji*. Drunk and disorderly 27 Fui'ious riding or driving; I Selling li((Uor without license 2 Total arrests .").■> ANDREW WESTWOOD, of Prince Albert, hotel clerk, on being duly sworn, (l('|)used as follows : Jii/ Jiid;/e McDonald : ;i(il.")0. What is your business or occupation ? — lam Clei'k of the (.^lucen's Hotel iicre. .■?()14(). How long have you resided in the Noi'th-west Territories ? — About is yeai's, .Sdlll. Hid you come liere fi'mnoneof tlie otliei provinces v j-'rom tlicold clil4l. in what ]iortion of the Xoi'th-wcst Tt'riitori"s were you stationed? -.\11 i)\t'r. At Maclfod, Calgary, Edmonton, Wood .Mountain, and at every point all over tlic VI UMtry, ])i'iiu'ipally near the boundary. •'ItUJ"). Of course vou had some experience in the working of the pciinit svsteni? — Yr>. iilllMi. It was part of your duty, I suppose, to look after tiie enfort'ciiient of the law '. Yes, in those days jieruiits were gi\i'n by the police ollicers. • )(il")l. Was it of gcMul ipiality .' 1 could not say it was \ery good ; in my opinion il was very j)ooi' stuil', that would make a man sick after drinking it. .")<)l-')2. Jlad you any e.vperienee of li([uor smuggling? -Yes ; large c|uantities were siiuiggled in in those days. ."illlo.'i. In what shape (-In all kinds of shapes. ."'til.")!. Please state in what kind of packages? — Tt was done up the same as canned iViiil. with labels on the cans. .")l)l ")."), Was it .se:ih' ' up ? — Yes, just the same as caimed fi'uit. After tlu^ railway 'Hiiie in, I have seen it shipped iiv tin bo.ves made to represent Holy IJibles. ol'.t . U- ^3 Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories. .'!(■)]•"<('). Was it brouglit in in any utlicr foi-ni ()?i tlic the four per cent beer in use f- -No. 1 have iujt seen much 'it' Ha\t' you oi)S(M\<'d the operation of the present license system 1 — Y'es. I understand you are in ciiai-ge of the hotel that is licensed? — Yes. Who has the license? — Mr. Oram, the pr(.i)rietor f)f the house. Since ]\Iay 1st the Territories have been under a license system? — Y'^es. Have you found any permit .system was in force, did you ol)ser\c that when ntcn l:"I permits all their friends would gathei' and they would drink tin; li(|Uor when it nrri\e.l until it was all consumed ? — ^'es, I joined in that many times myself. .361. *<."). Does that kind of thing go on now ? — No. Since the license law has cnine into foi'ce 1 do not think I ha\-e drank o\er oO glasses of liquor. Mefoi'e that linn' 1 would be with the boys when licjuor was brought in. AM)iii:w Wi;sTwooi>. 320 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 :i()l>S(i. When you were with the police, did you consider that the force earnestly endeavoui'ed to carry out the provisions of the law and stop as far as possible all ]i(iuor cominj; into the Territories',' -Yes. We had |)arties out all the time. .'{(■) 187. Jlave you had anything to do with the Indians since the new law came into force? — No. ;5()1S8. Are there many Indians near here? — There are (|uite a few across the river. By Rev. Dr. AIcLeod: .'56189. Were you connected with the hotel before ^lay 1st? — Yes. .SfilDO. And you sell the liquoi' ?--Yes. .")(') 1!)1. You arc clerk if ''•e hotel, 1 suppo.se? — Yes, and attend to the bar. T am in charge of the whole hoi, ... Jiij Judge JfcDoiKild : IM) l92-:{. Has there been, within your knowledge, sale to Half-breeds since the license law ? — There are very few Half-breeds here, taking my experience of the house, >vlio l)uy liquor. .'UilUk You think compounds were used both by Indians and by Half-breetls ? — Yes. M()195. Did you hear of white men making up thos<; drinks? — Yes. Jiy Ner. Dr. Mch'od: 'M\\W\. Your hotel is the only retail licensed place in the town ? — Yes. 3f)197. Are the provisions of the license law well ob.served by you? — I think they are. 31)198. That is your belief as manager of the hotel ?- Yes. 36199. There is no .sale after hours or on Sundays ? — When 1 am there, I generally (.lose pretty promjitly, often, indeed, we close before the regular hour. te;!l . 1 ' :r-, 1 ■1 t'' t ■i i' t 1 I i .■■ ■ ! .11! 1 ! es. iiucli "I liou-^ (f dnnl- . got l»i |(' wiiy. nsiiit\ It ani\'' tini'' Miss lil'CY M. IJAKEH, of Priuci- Albert, on being duly sworn, deposed as fiilliiws ; — By Jiidije McDonald : 36l'00. What is your occupation '. — I ha\e been a missionary teaelier for several years in connection with the Presbyterian Chm'ch. •'ii'iL'Ol. "\\'hat are tin? duties of your position !- At present I am teailiing. We lia\f opened a school for the Siou.x I ndians across the rixer. It has only lately been npeiied. 3(i2U"J. Is it a school for both secular and re'igious instruction '. Yes. .'l(>L'0:i. Is it for boys and girls .'—Yes. •36204. How many pujiils have you f -Alxput L't) o'l the roll ; there is an average of I'liir II. There are several young men who attend wIiimi they have ni> work ; tiiev are ^iiy much interested, and come to school regularly when they are nut working. The irsi are young children. 3(iL'0.''). l)(i you find them i|uick to learn ? — 1 never taugiit pu|)ils who were mure so. • ii'iL'tX). How are they as to habits : ,ire they well b(>haved ! 'IMiey are beginning til lie su. The young men behave exceetlingly well. • i(')'Ji)7. lUit the children art> more ditiicult to manage, 1 suj)p(ise ?- -Yes. 3liL'0.'S. Have you .seen any special results as to the working of the li(|uor law in this iiiiiiiiuinity ? — I have been here 1.3 years. 36209. So the permit system has b(>en in force since you have been here .' ^'es. 36210. How did you tind it work .' NMii'ii I first came here young men «ereiM the liiiliit, as some other witnesses have stated, of getting together and drinking liipinr that liiul been brought in ; ("specially as they could not get anv mori,' for a while. 321 2 1 ■' I ■*"* ;i 1 1 H' Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories, 'M'2l I. Did the Indians get liquor? — They have not got it as yet. ^^6212. And I supjM)se tliey did not get it in those days? Not to my knowledge. .'U)21.'l. You think, I presume, that it is must desirable to keep it awayfi-oni them ? — Yes. Of course I do not know how liijuor affects white peojilo particularly, but it has a most disastrous effect on Indians. The temperance societies are working together now, and they must have the credit of placing this town in a ))etter position than it formerly occupied. The permit system was practically prohibition to the Indians. ."{(ili 1 4. Hasthere been up to thistimeany very mai-ked change in the Indians ? — ^I have seen acts done by the Half-breeds that I did not like to see. We have taught Treaty Indians who come to school. Until a yeai' and a half ago they never saw people get li(juor ; but since the license .system lias come into force I have seen some of those young treaty Indians drinking. .■{fi'JI "). They are full Indians, I suppose? — I do not know. I spoke tt> one of them, and he said he was a non-Ti'eaty Indian. ."Ul^lO. So y(tu are afraid iis to the results as regards the Indians of the present license system ? -I would be afraid of their associating with the Crees. I heard of some going to the Crees' houses and .spending the evening with them. One was a young man who came to the .school. .'50217. Do they speak English? -They tire learning it. 3G218. Did you come fn>m one of the other Provinces originally ?— Yes, from Huntingdon, Quebec. .'?()211). Have you found that a great change has taken place in the habits of the people as compared with forniei- year.s? - Yes. ."{6220. Have those changes bee nie more marked every year? — Yes. fii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod: 36221. T understand that vou have been engaged \'.\ years on mission work.' —Yes. .S()222. In this vicinity? — Yes. .SG22."'>. You lia\e reason to fear from what you have seen since the license systeni has come into force, that the Indians may be led astray? -I have great fear of it. During one year and a half before the license .system 1 never met a drunken Treiity Indian or low Half-breed ; but I have met them coming and going since then. I diii not liki> their condition. 3G22I. You say that jtrohibition under the permit system did prohibit ?- Yes, so far as tlu^ Indians wei-e concerned. I think classes of people are getting liqun> now who did not get it before. .'Ui22r). Have you, as a teacher and having the interests of the comnmnity at heart, considered the t|uestioH of prohibition in a wider way than for. erly? I think I \\;\\r. .■?()22<). Wli.'it is tlie conclusion at which you have arrived ? Is 't that prohibit inii would !)(' of advantage to the country at larger? T think it would be. I believe we would be able to inlluenvt' the minds of the yourig to favour total abstinence. .■ii)227. You believe in moral suasion, I suj)pose? Yes. .'5t)22S. Do you believe that your use of moral iiiHuences wt)ultl bi^ greatly aidi'd bv a prohibitory law? ] think so, most assuredly. The Treaty Indians cannot, nt course, buy liijuor. Two . Can any non-Treaty Indian get drink ? -I do not know. He used ilwi expression, and .said that no person had given it to him. .■{(}2.'U). As to the Half-breeds, is it not a fact that unless they bring tlieinscbcs within the provisions of the law by Incoming Treaty Indians, they can have the s.iiiie Miss Lucy M. Bakeh. 322 ivr \t)j)le who drunk oidy occasionally. •'i(>*J40. Do you refer to licpior that was brought in under permit, or to litpior which was smuggled into the Territories ? — To li(iuor that was brought in. .'i(!2H. Of what character was the lii|Uor which was smuggled (—Genei'ally they smuggled nothing but alcohol. They used almost anything in the early days. •■Ui24L'. Do you know anything about the compounds that wcic used !--Yes, I have seen a great many used : Pain-kill(>r, Bay I'um, Floi'ida water, I'urdock's J'lood Hitters aiiil anything that contained alcohol. I have seen liaii' restorati\-e used as a l)everage. •'iOL'l.'i. Have you seen rinl ink used as a beverage? — No, but I have seen nitre used. .'56241. How were those com[ioun(ls made up? — They were used by men who could not obtain anything else. Before tli(> building of the railway there was no communica- tion b(>t ween here and Winnipeg except l)y carts. The li(|UOi' arr-ivcd in the s)):;ng and tail, and when the last carts came in the fall there would l)e no niDre comi- in until •I line or July. The pei'uiits canu' in in the fall and then; was a y;eneral spree until till- li(|uor was finished, and then ihey woidd finish of!" with whatever they could get in I lie shape of drugs. i^?"^;* '•■52ii0. 1 I'ctV'i' to licjuor Ix-inij; contained in jiiickages of siigai- and ri(-i' and so forth '. — Yi's. .■{()2")l. Have you noticed wlietiier sale of liiiuor is ;;oiiif,' on among tiie Indians ; I liave not. I havo noticed a few Indians and llalf-lireeds di'inkin<;. 'M')'2i>'2. Takinjf your expei'ience, do you tliink it would lie praeticahle to enforce a j)i-oliil)itoi'y law, a law proliibitini; the inanufaetui'e, iinportatinn and sale of intoxieat- inn ii(|Ucir for heverane jiui'poses '/ — No, I do not think you could enf(»rce it. .'U)i'.").'i. l.)o you think, in cas(f of such a law heinj^ passed, that it would be rij;ht. and just for brewers and distillers to receive renuineration for their lo.ss of plant and niat-hinery ; I do. ;S()2r)l. ,Ju(lj;inj,' fi'oui what you have seen of the license law since the 1st of May, are there any amendments you could sugi;est I-— No, except curtailir" the number of licenses i;ranted, for I tind in some districts tiiere are too many licen.ses. .■5t)L'5-"). In this town we undei'stand tliere are only one hotel licen.se and two shop licenses <,'raMted ?— Yes. I do not think there are too many in Prince Albert, butr there are enough. At Hatocht! there is one licensed place, further uj) there is another, besides two at Duck Lake. This .system will ha\t' a tendency to make ])eople in tlu? i-ural dis- tricts drink more. Any man may conn? into town and buy lic|Uor, but if you t;ike an i.solated liciuor store where, according to the licen.se, the licensee niu.st .sell only wholesale, thei'e is a great tendency to sell by the gla.ss. ;U)2r)(). We have been told that tiie cases of drunkenness that have occurred lia\f been mostly among non-i'esidents of the town, visitors who come here. l)o you know any thing else on that subject?--] couldnot say exactly, bat I think they are principally out- siders living in the adjoining country. Thei'e does not appear to lie an increase amongst the people of the town. , is* ; JOHN McTAtaiAliT, of Prince .Vlbert, Agent for Dominion Land.s, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows:— 1)1/ Jnd(ie JIcDotid/d : 'M\2^u. How long ha\e you resided here? — Between seven and eight years. .■i()2oS. Where did you reside before coming here? — 1 resided in Touchwootl in tiic bunnner of 1.SS4. •'Ul^oit. Did you couu! here fr'om one of theother ])r(jvinces? — I came here from < )ntini(i. .itV-'dO. VVhi'it County ( — Victoria. •'MIlM)!. Have you noticed the operation of the permit system in the North-\Mst Territories ? -Yes. .■30"J()-. How did you tind it work.' — Very un.satisfactorily. Permits wei'e too easily obtained. ."{(ilidlJ. Have you e\('r noticed men getting together with th(>ir friends wlicii u permit would come in, and (lriid' drunkenness since that time than before. o(')'2(')(). Are you favoural)le to license or jirohibition? — 1 am in favour of jirohibitimi. liCrJtir. Are you oj)posed to licen.se on the ground of ex]iediency, or on the grou?i(l that it is wr' .(1 lll'iir hiliitiii ami siiic of iiitoxicdtin;; li(|iiors for bcvt-raj,'!' luirposfs, woulil voii favour the j^naiitiiij,' of coiiijx'iisatioii to hniutM's and distillers for loss of plant .' -No. .■{()l!71. i)oyi)ti know of any husiiiess that is proliiliited hy Aet of Parliament as it is sujfuested to proliiliit the liquor hiisiiiess .' -Sometimes the operation of the tai'itl" causes otlii'i' imsinesscs to hecoine uriprolitahh? and |ire.ents men making money out of them ; hut in this case they should have studied the point hefore tht^y entered the husiness. 'M'>2~'2. Have you considered the (|uestion of the treatment of the hahitual drunk- ard. There are men wiio are constantly hefore the police I'ourts and an sent to jirisoii for short terms. It has heiui suj,f;;ested that it winild he better to send those men to inehriate asylums with a view to their reformiktion, or at all events with tin- object of kcepiiii; them away from saloons? — Yes, provided the drink could not be kept away from them. Jii/ Ji,i: Dr. Mvhiod: •■5()27.'5. As Doininioii Lands A;;-erit, what arc your duties? To urant entries for land, make sales of land, and so forth. ■'i()"274. So you make sales of Dominion lands.' -Yes. 'M)'lli>. AVithin what area have you cliarge of !>oiniriion lands? I ha\ e chai'ice of the Princ and Jlanj,'e 10 west. 'MVlli't. Yourduties,! suppose, bring you into contact with the people a i,'reat deal? — Yes. .'i<)L'77. 1)() you have to travel much? — Xo. my business is in the otlice. .■{Ol'78. Then pcojile come to you? — Yes. ■■i<)279. Ai'c you able from your contact with business people to form an o})inioii as til liow they r(!gard the drink trathc' and what treatment they desire to give it, whether they desire a system of permits, license or prohibition ? —F think if the (piestion were left to the ])(M)ple, they would rather lia\e prohibition. ">I')2S0. i'rom your oli.servation of the old .system and the issue of permits, have yoii reason to believe that whatcNcr dissatisfaction there was with the system was directly attributable to the lax administration of the ))ermit .system? — Most (lecidedly. ■'>G'281. The statistics show that the nuinbor of permits issued increased i-einarkably of late years, and it would seem that jiermits wore issuecl indiscriminately of late years. Were you able to observe whether that was the case or not ? When I iMliie to the cimntry first permits were not so easily obtained as they wi^re subseiiuently. (fovernor Uewdney wa.s in power at that time, and he seemed to be very iin()opular indeed, and still no one could say aiiytliinit afrjiinst him or ])oint out any particular wroiij; he had (lone. I could not understand from what his unpopularity arose. I subsequently found it arose from the permili system, that some persons wire icfiiscd |ierinit-i while others were granted them, and this caused dissatisfaction. jjate?' on the restrictions were taken away considerably, and as the restrictions were removed (lovernor J.)ewdnev"s ]iiipularity increased. I noticed that during' the jiiipular. ■'ii'i'-'S-J. That would .seem to indicate that the who iMad(> the most noise. .■it)L'8;J. You have observed, I supjiose, the working of the other .systems: the pei'- iiiit system at first, when some care was exercised in the issue of iieriiiits, and later tlit.' t'luir per cent beer plan, and since 1st May the license .system. Placing those three sys- tems side by side and looking carefully and thoroughly at their eiVccts, which do you tliiiik is the best .system? The permit system. •''iti2iSf. As early exercised and administered? Yes. by all means. :ili-'S."). Was there any attempt made in Prince Albert and in its vicinity to pre- Miit the change being made?-- No. ■"ill'JSd. Was no petition sent? — Not that 1 am aware of. ■'ill-S7. Was no a|iplicatiou sent from Prince Albert to lia\e a plebiscite taken on this i|uestion? Not tliat 1 am aware of. 325 latter jiart of his tei'iii he was very people wanteil lii|uor ? Only those ■iii {■ ■ I ■:■•! I I Hi ffljii' 1'' lii i ' J ' If ' i'l- Liquor Traffic — Nitrth-west IVrritorlos. ;?(i"_'SS. ^'()u do not know that tlu' people ot' Prince Alhfirt nifulo ii ref|iiisition to tlio Lej{isliiture to Imve (in aye (in enactment of a license law was not in any sense an issui! at tho last election .' I do not think it was. I was not, however, j)resent here durinj,' the election. T was in Ontario while the elections weie proj^'ressin;;. .'!()■_'!•(). Since the license law came into operation, lia\e there been any conijiiaints madi' hy the people hc.vr, of iiipior hein;.' obtained by Indians and llalf-br'ceds ?--l have heard a ^'ooil deal about the Half breeds obtaiiunji; mor<> li(Hior under thi' license .system. has be .'iCiL'ilJ. lias any representation been made to the authorities at Uej^ina ? The ."?()■_".•■_'. In a formal way or by individuals !!»-J'.i;i. Was the iietition niunei iy a ]ietition. OUSlV SI'MMM I ' Id. o not know hciv, manv si''hatnri there were. b .•<()L'!lt. What did the petition set forth Tl 'lit across the river to the Indians and Half breeds le petition i'onip]aine( (1 of d asked that iiiiiiht lie taken to pre\('nt that sort of tl iinLr iieinir / L'.r. Dr. MrLn„l . .'i(i29(). Has there been an within the last two or three days. .'i()"Ji)7. r>ut your observation so far as the licens(? system is concerned is, that then- has l)een iiion; drinkinu jind drunkonness than pre\ iously ? Yes ; I think there has been more drunkenness since the license system cami; into force. liif Jiuhje Mi'DoHiihl : .')(i'29S. You have worked aloiii;' with ihefrii'iids of prohibition in Prince Albert. I .suppose? -Yes. .■?()29i). Can you tell me whether they wanted a license law or petitioned for local prohibition ? — No. \VJ LlilA.M (Il'NX, of Prince Albeit, advocate, on beini; duly sworn, deposed follows : lii/ Jnchji- Mf DditiiUl : 'MVM)[). How loiii; ha\e your resided here ?- Ooin^ on 12 years. ."id-'iOl. Where did you reside before?- -In Manitol)a ; T was born there. ;5(».'i02. When you came to the North-west Territories, was the permit system force ? -Yes. .'?l)."?0.'5. Did you see aiiythinn; of its ojieration ?- T saw a good deal of its operatii .'!(i.St)l. Will you kindly statt^ what your observations were? ^ly impressions \m that when a per.son wanted liipior and to go on a spree he would ask for a permit. I could get a permit for from 2 to 10 gallons. I suppose, although 1 never got oi that it was at the time when unlimited permits were granted to certain indixiduals. other witnesses have said to-day, when the piM'init arrived, .bjliii Smith was the friend exery man in the place; they gathered around him and stayed with him until there w John McTA(;i:.MfT. 326 II. ir le |C. .Vs of 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iKitliiii;,' to stiiy for. Liitcr on tlicri' wiis a lni of li((»iur in tln» roiiiitry, siiiii;,'j,'k'(l iiiul .illii'isviHc. Liii'j;(( (|Uiiiititi('s of li(|uoi' were l)roii;;lil in undi'f |)('i'init. I know tluit as a fad, lit'causc I liavn seen L'HO ;;allons of what we called " fort \ -nxl," tlu' worst kind of whisky made, on one oultit, and in thi' saii.c c.iii^o I sM|)|iost' fluTf ucrcL'OO );alions I did not Mt'e. There wore lots (»f cases of that kind where larj^e i|iiantitie.H of lii|Uor were .siiiu;:Lrled into tli ■ country. .■Ki.'.or)-!). Ih '. was (lie iic|iior packed f l( was in I'O j;al!on or 10 i,'allipii ke^s. It was taken up the < 'ariadian I'ai-irK.' i!ailway road to Kiish l^ake and then to the South .Saskatcliew m, 1 .") oi' l'U miles, where it was put on llal hoats .'uid hroULilit down to within 1 ■'" miles of here, where it wii.s sold at from .S'."»0 to >i<20.00 a gallon. 1 ha\e also seen it hroiiitht in in cans lahelleil apples and as dill'erent varieties nf canned yoods. .Sd.'KJ". Were the tins scaled ' Ves, the same as canned ;l,'i" in a store, as they appear on the shehcs. ;l(i.">()S. Were pain killer and oilier sidistitutes used, to your kii' iw ledi,'e ,' -Yes, I know that fiom practical «'Xperience. .■l((.")t»'.». What were use(l .' —Pain-killer and hay nnn, a mixture of lieef, iron and wine, Idood hitters and thinj^s of that kind. They also used extracts and essences and .laiiiaica rum. It was (piite connnon when I first caUi' hei'c to meet a man traNiJIint; roiuid with a nundier of small liott ies in iii.> pocket contaiidnL; I i< pi ids of t his ki ml, ami at ihe s.iine time looking around for a friend to have a spree. • iti.'Ut). From what you saw, do you think that a neneral prohihitory law inv tli(> I'ominion could he enforced ?--I do not think .so. .■ili.'ili. I refer to a law prohihitint; the manufacture, imporlatioii and s.di' of intoxi- catiiu; lii|Uors for be\'eiaj,'e purposes. |)o ymi think that if such a law were enacted, it would lie possihlo to kee|) li<(Uor out of the country '. .\ iini\eisal law miu'lil pussiMy ho enforced, hut not a local one. .'ill.'i 1l'. a universal law for what? .\ univcr>al law tor tiic whole <(Uitineni of .\merica. I do not think even that could he enforced strictly, hcr.i ^c there wniild he u lai'Lic (piantity hrouiiht into the I'nited States as well as the |)ouiinion. ."iCt.'il.'i. Tn case of the enactment of such a law, do you think it would lie right and just that hrewers and distilliu's should hi- c(»inpensated for their loss of plant / -Yes .'iti'il 1. Have you seen the operation of the license lasv in this town ! — T have. •"><;.") 1"). How have you found it work here,'--.\ great deal more satisfactoi'ily th.in I lie permit system. I do not think I here is nearly as much driinkemu'ss in the town now. 1 have hoard some evidence to show that such is not the case, hut the reason for tli.'it might he explained in this way : the constal)le is on the lookout more sharj>ly for drunks, and if he tindsa man drunk he ruiisiiim in. l'"ormerly it was nut uncommon to sec drunken men, hut they were not run in. I lia\eheen there myself hut 1 never was iMcddled with by the constable, and that was the case time and time again. Sothenum- hei' of tines was no index. ;i(i.'ill'). J-)o you consitler there was more drinking under the okl law than now? —Yes. % /?rr. Dr. Mi-L,'od: • iti-'UT. As you escaped btMiig run in befoi'e the license system came into fiu'ce, have ynu heeii ruii ill since .' No, J have not. 1 have not drank since. I have been a total abstainer since May. •"Ui.'US. fs that because there is a license system now.' — Yes, just becaU«' I feel it is a law wv can respect, anil one wiiich we helped ourselves tt) frame. I have a thorough cnnteiiipt for a prohibitory law, and \ beliexc th.it the majority of the jieople in the Ter- lilories have the same feeling. •"iti.'ili). I)id the smuggling incrca.se steadily ,' i think it did, uniil during, jierhaps, I he last year or so. ^iii^il'U. When the railway was built 1 su|>pose there was more. 1 )o you know will ther the numlu'r of i)ermils was reduced of late ye.irs .'—I base heard lots of pieople •■ay they were I'efused permits. •Iti.'SL'l. Did you notice whether the ([uantity specified on the permits increa.sed of late vears I -I do not think so liecause the very first permit 1 got was for seven gallons. 327" I . 'I 11',! Tiicjiioi' 'I'lallic — X gallons Canadian. .'{(i.'lJI. «So (here wa.s not much of an atlemiit to res|M'cl prohiliition .' I a<'ross \i TV many |ieo|ile who res|)ected it. ;:aMons ne\-ei' rami' i' »l ' rKTHM U( )r.K|{TS()N, Chief of I'olice, wasajjuin ealled. 7)1/ Jic.r. Dr. Mcb'od : .'5().'?"jr). When you say there is more diunkeniu'ss now than in former days, do y< mean that vou run in e\ery drunken man i No : I lake a drunk home. ■MV.VH\. And it Iv when tliev are disorderly vou run them in '.- I tell sui'li III tiiat if he does not yo home, I will arrest 1 iim. if h ,'oes home (|uietly, a llhoti;r|i li»,' is under the intluenee of li(|uoi'. \eiy well; I look after him if there is no jiossihility of his K"'i'.- home. Some of the old hums we have necessarily to jirrest when they are in !i(|uor. The (' Mumission ;ulionriied, to resmiieits sittiii'' in Iteui WlLIJ.VM (J I" NX. H2S fy* 67 Victoria. Sessiousil Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 UKOINA, S»\vw\>v\- I, IS'.C'. 'I'liu liiiviil I'uiiiiiiissiiiii icsuiiumI its sittini; ln'if toiliiy. /'I'fKi'iit ; •lumK MclKiN Ai.ii. I{i:v, |)n, McLkoh. JOHN n. ('. \Vir.L(»l'(!MI'.V, M.I)., uf KcL'iiia. ..I. iM'ini; duly swoin, d.-poscl as t'ullows : />)/ ,/ii,/i/: Millitiiiihl : .'It'p.'tiT. Mow luiii; liiiM' Vdii resided in the Nnitliwesl 'I'eiritinies .' .Mniiil leii y(;:irs. .'Kl.'i'JS. I »iiiiiiu all lllfit time have ymi heeii eiit,'a^'e(l in the |iraeliee nt' niedieiiie? ^'es. .'i(i;i'_".l. I (urihi; all that time ha\'e Vdii icsided in |{ei;ina .' No, I ha\i' Used li\e years in Ke^iiia. .■')(I."!.'i(J. Where did ymi reside the other li\e years ,' f !i\i'd in the northern pari ot' till' Territories, |irinei|ially at Saskalooti. .■!<1."5.'JI . Did you come from one ot' the |irovini'es to the North west 'j'erriluries .' I (•.line from Ontario. .")(!.'5.'{"2. |''roni what ('ounty did you come .' l<'roin near Toronto. ."ilili,"!."!. Have yon li.id ex|ierienee in aiiV oilier |irohil>iloiy eoiiiilry ihaii the Noi'th- west Teri'itoi'ies ?- Nunc al all. .■tti.S.'U. Ila\e Villi seen the 'rerritories under what was ealleil the |)eriiiit >\slein !-- I hav.-. .'lO.S.S."). And also under the license since 1st May? ^'es. .■i(>."{.'i(i. W'liicil is the lirefer.ilile system .' -1 think the liceii.se .systtMii. .■!(>.■{.'{". |)id yiiu lind t he oi her .system not work satisfactorily.' Not In my mind. ."i().'i.'{S, What was there atiotit it, as re^^irds its workiiiif, that was unsatisfactory '. The main unsatisfactory feature was the (|uantity of lii|iioi- 1>roui;ht in hy a]i|)licaiits tor permits. .'i().'t.'{!l. Have yiiu I'casun to heliex e I hat liipior was smuj;uled into tiie 'rerrilnries / Ves, I have e\ery reason to helicM' sn. ■ iii.ilO. Have you any reason to suppose that tht^ lii|Uiir thai was so hrouitht in was lit' .111 impure and injurious character.' Personally T know nothini; of that. It was M'ly freijueiitly stated that the liipmr siiui!,'i.ile(l in was nf a \('rv inipiire character. • ifi.'ill. The (Commissioners ha\e lieeii infnrmeil thai it was the custom under the piiiiiil s\stem, fill' peiiplc who iilitained permits aed l;o1 liipior to have a few friends ciiiiie in, and they would drink until all the lii|Uiir was consumed .' — That was ceilainly tile iiahit in many cases, hut not in all cases. .'ili.'il'j. 'i'he Commissioners have lieeu also tnld that (lie pe(>](lo were in the liahit of usiiij; pain-killer, eau de Coloi^ne anil other suhstances in lieu of liipior for l)e\ craue jiur- piisi's? — In the northern ]iart of the country, away from the railway, il was harder to P'l liquor in, and I have freipiently seen people use such decoclions. ."ili.'U."), 1 >o you lind the use of liipior of that kind contined to any parlimilar class'? No. I cannot say so. T think it was not, ."id.'iH. It has heeii sui,'i;csted that the only jieopje who used pain-killer were niPii uhn Were old topers, and it was used after they had i;ot over a liout of drinkini; liipior iliiii would come in under ])crmil .' 1 ha\e seen a i,fooil ileal of thai too. .Must of the lii|Uiir drunk in that wav was used hy persons of that kind, hut it was not ultogelluM" so, 329 ■: ll; I : l! ;l llfr- I if m liiquor Traffic — North-'weist Tei-rit(Ji-ies, A'// h'>'r. Dr. Mi- hod: 'MV.\['). Wliiit wMs Mil' cliiff defcc' nt' tin- permit systtMii ,' .My chict' i)h)ecti(iii to it was tluit liciiKir wiis hroujiUt in by partic:; in (jUiintitii's t'lvnii vwo to five j;;ill()iis in il)ahly could not iihtain a ]>ermit, while his neijihliour. \\ ho did nui need it tor 'nedieMJ purpipses, could uhtaiu a 11 th 1" rndts he wanted. .'iO.'JUi. On what conditions were the |'(M'nnt> granted .' — They were supposed to In granted tor medical and domestic piU'poses, and on recommended hv some one known to tlui (Jo'.ernor. mdition thai the a[)plicant wa- .■?(').") 17. I low did it hai that pei'suns who leally n ceded alciiholic liiniur t'< medicinal )iui'iioscs enuld not ^ei a jterinil, while those wlm did nut want it t'nr medical purposi^s coidrl ihlain it. ]iow wastht discrimination made.' 1 ha\e known settlei- who lived lonir distances away from the railway come into te-vn. tlic'-e heini;' sickness in lose idca\'our to t^et a permic, and could not ii' so, liecause no one wl theii' families, and et reconimcMidatioii woidd he taktMi hy the (!(i\-ernor knew tlie paitK'; ."id.'ilS. So the permit system was nut administered simply find ises, hut the peruuts weie i;i\cn accurdinL;' to the < !ii\ eiiiur s kimw ledi;e of the ap] omest 11' and medical >li- it. Was that the case ( -I ilii not mean ih.it atall. 'I'lie (JiiMMimr made a cimdilioii thai wlinever wan ted pet imt shou Id 1 )e •■'■(•(iiiimended iiy sciiie respiiiiNihle persip.i ili.'il!). i'nr instance, if a set tier came into tow ii and wanted liiiiior for medicinal loses, won 1 1 1 he not he reiiimineiided hy vou or some ntlicr plivsici.in purpi refused Ii (III so in iiiai.v cases, because I did not kii 1 h >i. about sicknv.s in his f.uni he is known to me. low out Miat tlie person was lyuii; I hace no reason to yive a man ;i r iiimendation unless .'M.'i.'it). You iia\e said you knew cases where men who ncefused. •M\ .Villi the parties were Ml II I if alcoholic I iipior tor nie.hcin.il piirpi .■!(>;!.").'!. ( )n the other hand, liave you known of pailivs who did not need to obl.iin lii|Uor for medicinal purposis, obiain permits? Yes. .■fli.'Jo I. 1 )oyou think the )ieiin't system was badly administcreil, lakinu it allo^ethl■r ' ot think it would he iiossi ble ti ;ii Do vou think it could ha\e heen properly administer il •llicicnth' ailminisiered than il was dministered '! I do not know. I do not know enoui;h about the iiiannoi in which ii ,as administered to be able to state positively that it mi','lit have been inanaf;ed better. i().'i")l). hi) vou know whether i)ermits were vcrv fieelv mauled or not llii.'k tl 1 lev vveie ; that is to say in the Liter vcai.- 1 '••S.ll. What are the advant; if the licens ()i le adv,:ntai,'e is that a man who really needs Innior is .ili e system over t lie pcnilit svslein lie III jret il just as he re( ;(n;i.-i Xot, even for inedirinal purposes.' T ajiplied t'or a ]ierinit for liipior for medicinal purposes and was refused. :'ili.'i()(i. hoes lieense rejjulate the trade, aeeordint;' to your ohsersation .' 1 think so. "i(i3'''7. In what respeet .' I )oes it diniinish drinkin;; .' I cannot state as a fact any I hini; aixiut it. ."i(l;!(iS. hoesit diminish disorders Lfrow'inir out i,i (lruid, I thiiiK my experience has heen ' liat we ;ue less called upon to attend |iatients sull'eriiii; from drunken liouts. .">(l,')l)'.(. I''r()in your ol)ser\ation in Ue;;ina since the license system has come into opirat ion. has there Icen less di.soi'der than tlieri? was pre\iously? I think there has liceii less dmikennc^s since the lieens(> law came into operation than in tlu' days of the |iermit .systour when a crowd would leather together and driid< a carLto of whisky and siai't round town and raise a racket. Since the license system we certainly have hail less of that condition : hut whether that is the reason if it, I would not liki^ to say. ."ili.'lTl*. Are yon alile to state whethei- there has Keen less druid it'ect ,' I woidd not like to answer t hat (|Uest ion ; in fact I do not know nuich aliout the administration of it, .')():'i71. I )o you lielievi! in the total prohiliition of the lii|Uor i rallic ,' I do. personally. .iti.'wo. Speaking aliout prohiliition for the whole country, do you think that if a i^i'iieral ]iroliiliit(iry l.iw w ere cniicteil, a law |irohiliitinii- the manuf;n:ture, importation and sale of iiitoxieatinu li's impossible to administer it properly, that is to keep liquor out of the c(juntry, for i Know inniiense (juantities of it were broujilit in. ;5();588. Did the [Mounted Police ai)pear to be faithful in tiie discharjie of their duties? -Yes; but in a large country like tiiis they coulling at all. .']6.'}91. Who were the acti\c parties then ? The Company. The representatives of the com|)apy in the tem|ierance colony were about ei(ually ili\ ided as regards the use of liquor. ;i('i.'i!)2. 1'he only reason that you have for believing thi't the manager's of the com])aay wanted no permits granted for li(|i;or for medicinal p\ir|ioses was thatyoui' application for a permit for such purpo.se was refused ? — It was refused on that ground. IlG.'iO.'i. That reason v.as stateil by the Governor oi' by the authorities? That was the reason given. .'?(i3!)4. How long ago was it ? That would be about 1 S.S.'i or lS8(t. ;iti.'59r). Do you know that while your application for a ]iermit was refusei!, permits were granteil to other peoj)le at Saskatoon ? Yes, I think they were. 1 got a permii in the spring of |SS.") for 1(J gallons ',IS. A^'erc other jiermits granted .' I think after a time they were. For twn or thi'ce years the jieople there were refused |>ermits, and for other two years they would get them. .Sli.'i'.lil. ^^'heth.■|■ for me(lieinal purj)oses or not ; 1 thinkso. The managers of the C!ompiiny then brought the matter up again, and permits were again refused. .'idlOO. They were refused then. I supr ise, for iriv |iur|ioses? -Yes, 1 belie\i Bi/ Judge Jft;D(iiiii/osilioii in Ixeguia ci>nnecte(l with any | lUlilW m a mem ber iif I he Town (.'ouncil otilOl.'. How man\ ii leiMlK rs are in the Council Six, besi les the Mayor. .lonv H. C. A\'ii,i,iu i.iiin . 882 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 vour ■nmts |ii-iinil\ ,t 111'' \W\i iK J{ICHAU1) JIENHY WILLIAMS, Mayor «i Ucgni.i, nu Ixini,' duly swum, deposed as follows ; - .'5(1 lO.'J. ^^'e understand you ui'e Mayor of this eity .' — Yes. .SC) ^().■5(^ What business or occupation ilo you follow ,' — I am a merehani. .'51)101. How Ion;;' ha\e you I'esitled in the North-west Tenitories .' Ten yi'ai's last Au'.Mlst. .'J'! 10."). IImac you lesided all that time in Keyina ? — Yes. !{()10.")//. l>id you ci)me here from one of the other j)rovinces .' J ri'sided about 18 nion' lis in \\ iiinijiej^. ;i()K)l). iiefore that did you come from one of the other provi pits ? "^'es 1 came fr'jin t )ntario. ;il) (07. i'rom what eoiinty .' Kroni the County of Siineoe, ;{(»40><. \\'hat is the ])opulatioii of Jiegina.' I think in the neii;hbourliood of .'V'OU. ;}()4Uil. V'ou luuc a 'Icnvii Corporation, Mayor and Council, 1 suppose? — Yes. .'{(UIO. |)oyou lliid this to be an orderly and law-.ibidini; jilace? — Yes, very fairly so. • )!i 111. Does it compare fa\'ourably wit h ot her places in which yoii ha\'e li\('d .' — Yes. ^llillli. Have y(>u had any "xperience und(?r the [lermit .system and the license svs- tem which has just come into oj)eration on the 1st May la,st ? — •Y'^es. ■iliH.'i. As Mayor, have you had any practical experience in connection with the liipior trallic in the course of your otticial duties* Do you preside at the Police Court ] -Yes, •'ilill I. ^'ou ha\<' nota Police Matjisiij'.te for the town .' No. ;l()-H.^. So you are ex-otticio Police Magistrate 'I — Yes. ■ilUKi. Taking the state of things before 1st ]May and since, have you noticed any ditlcience / — In iny term of olhce before 1st May I did not have any cases before me in ciinnection with the li(|Uor tiatli<', but since 1st May, T have had nine cases. ■ilillT. What was th>' character of the cases .^- People charged with drunkenness. .")()41S. When did your term of ottice conniieoiie ? — This is iny second year. •illll!). ^'ou never hail any cases up to that time? -Not of drunUi'imess, to my knowledge. There might have been .so-.iie slight offences dismissed, but I do not remember. ■')(')t20. What has been your experience, as a citizen, as regard to dl uiikenne,~-s on the streets ? — In my opinion we ha\e had mo-eof itsince the license system came into force. .■504:.'!. Which would be ycair own '.hoice, a license system or a jierinit syst^-m ? — I prefer a ))eriuit sytteni, providing it was workable and enforced. .'iltl'J'J. Have you had experience in anv other prohibition country than the North- west Territories ? N(j. •'l()4L'.'i. it has been state(l that under the permit system j..'o|ile would miTt a few tViends in a house and keep up the drinking of liipior until it uas all consumed .' I lia\c lu'ard that slated, but I have not been connected with it in any slwipe. • itill'l. Are you a total abst.ainer .' - Not a total abst;uner. •'ill II'.'). Are you fax nurable to prohibition ? I am more fa\ durable to it than to the license system. :!()4'J(). If y(air choice were coiilincd to the two. which one xvoiild you prefer total prohibition ? — Yes. .'il)427. Doyou, froiu your ex|ieiieucre, considei it would be praclii'able to enforce a pmhibitory system ! I have been so little connected with it that I could scarcely tcil you. •'ill PJS. What about the' prohibitory clauses of tin liceiiNe law .' It wmild be wry liillicult to enforce them according to tlie letb'r of the l.iw. ■'IGil!!). ] sujipose if would depend xcrv much on llie character of the man behind ihcslle,' Yes. •ifil'iO. How many places in Kcgina are licensed; 1 think lour hotels and two wliuleside shops. 333 I ■; ■ 1 ii Hi 1 1 ( Liquor Tniffic — North-west Territoi'ios. ;}()4."51. Ha\c you iuiy idcii of tlie nuinht'i' of places in wliicli li(iuor was sold bcfoif the license law oaiiic into operation? — Tiiat is a question that 1 am not ))i'e|iai'e(l tct answer. .■ft)4."{2. Do you Ijelieve it was sold illicitly / — Yes. I believe so. 364.'!.'^. Do you know in how many places it was sold? — No. .■i()4;M. l)id you Knd the North-west ilounted Police force faithful in the discliar<;e of their duties I — Yes, I think they performed their duties to the best of their know- ledge and ability. '.U)A',]^t. One of the stations of the force is here? — Yes, the headcpiarters of the force are lure. JAC<)J3 W. SMITH, of Uegina, hardware merchant, on being allowed to come into the country. ."UilMJ. Were the police force vigilant? — Ws, and their powers were great. 'M)i 17. Were these )i()wers maintained as long as the Act remained in force ?--Not to so great an extent as in former years. .'56448. Do you consider that the force became less vigilant in later years ? 1 think so. .■if)44!l. What is the ground of your opinion? Permits were issued more freely and it became niore dilliiull ti) enforce the la\\. .'?()b")(). Did they relax their vigiiaiu'C ? — They did, because so many permits were issued that it was dilfii'ult to tell whether parties got drink in by permit or not. It w,i- more ditlicult for the police to administer the law inider those circumstances. .'ilib')l. Have you, as Chairman of the License Connnissioners, endeavoured honest) \ to carry out the pro\ isictns of the law .' -I have, so far as I have been ])ersonally alile to do so. .■{t)4o"_'. So far as you ha\e ob.ser\ed the operation of the license law, how have ymi found it work? — In what way? .'5t)4r);{. As regards licensees living up to the regulations? — F do not think tlieiegii- lations of the law has been li\('btain the names (jf the nearest hnuseliolder s Then there are certain conditions laid down with respect to the hou.se containing so many rooms, anil a re|iort has to be made. We tlepend generally upon the report of the I lispectiir. .ililtili, Then the Inspector examines ieto these matters .md makes a report to the liiiard? — Yes, and the Hoard decides whether the applicant has cmiiplied with th.^ con- ilitidiis of the Ordinance, aiul if the man lie consi,'i"'ed ;i worthy man and if his place is til to be lieen.sed, then he is granted a license. \\'here the conditions haxc not been cemplied with, tlu^ applicant is refused a license. ;itU(i7. Dd you have to choose lietw(>en a iiLniiber of licensees in Hegiiia .' — Ndt in Ivi'gina. There are no rivals in Uegina. ;Ui-K'>f>. In the nutside country, do ynu lia'.e ,i large luiniber of applications '.' Yes ; iliere weie four or lixc ajiplicatidiis refused. .'UiKi'.t. Were they refused be(.-aiise they ha(| not complied with the ciniditidns of i| rdinance '. -Yes, proliably for that reason, and because they had nut honestly secured the proper number (if naines. ."itilTll. 'J'lien has it come to the knowledge of the lioard that those parties whose licenses weie refused were selling illicitly ,' -No, it lias not come to my knowleflge. ■'iiilTl. You say the Insi)ector"s duties are tn supc'vise generally a district ! — Yes, uUlidiigh I think the law shduld be amended so far as the Inspecturs are cdiicerned. •'ifll7'2. Are the Inspectors salaried men ^-No ; they ai'e paid by fees. } do not tliiiik there is sutlicieni eiicoui'agenieiit under the () rdinance for them to do their duty. •■{i)17;!. Is tliere a Chief Iri-pector for a district and sub-inspectors? — Th<\i-e is a 'liief rnspector ; lie occujiies th dual position of Insjiector and Commissioner, ois name I •'. C. I'ope : he is called Chi"f License Fiispector. • Ill 17 b Is he a idwii dtticia! / Nd, he is under the Ndii li-west (jl(jvernment. A'// Jiiihjf Mrlliiiiiilil: ■ it)47"i. I think vnu said that all the provisions of the law were lixcd up to by the 111 cnsees. Uefore they were granted licenses were tlu ir applications investigatetl .'- -!So t'li! as we could find out. 335 i : i^ Li(iuor Traflic — Noitli-wcst Territories. 3()+7<). It' tlicy firt' not proper j)('0])l(' to receive licenses, you refuse tlieni ? —Yes. We lias'e discretion in our liiincls, ;uul wlien we tliink a jjcrson is not lit, we refuse liini license. .'i(U77. You (lid not exercise; those powers, I lielieve ? — No, l)eciuise tliei'C wiis a division on the 15oai'd. .'?()47''^. Were the majority in fa\our ot exercisinj,' those powers ?~ I lietieve part nt' tiie iSoard took the j,'roun(l that they had a rii;lit to issue licenses to any one ]>ayin^' for licenses. .■it)47'J. Jfow many nienihers are thi'ref — Three, one from (^)n .\]i]ielle. one fr'om Moose Jaw and myself from li(\i,'ina. 'I"he dist liet is from Indian Head to .Moose .law. about i)U miles. Kiev. JOHN H. KIX(;, of He^ina. >n lii'iiiu' duly sw'l). 1 lave you reason to belie\e permits were granted ipiite iiidisciiminaiely ;U11S7, What w oiihi lead vou to entertait that Tl e ciintinuous sale ovt the 1)1 ;i()4SS. Was there contin iioussa lein H na prior to the license system : I beli itib'^!'. You came here after the introduction lling foui' jier cent beer. loses, iir were ame in abmit lS8ti, iti4i)l . You obserxed then was sale 111 netiina Wi the town, end of the pro d this iiiMiiiiiii' 'hat the re was sometliiiii: o th Was that kind of tliiiijj conn iliibii noil prior to license if disorder last night in ' — 1 was here at the lattei mil ilav>. ail' I ne\er lieartl of such thinys or observed then :t(i41l-'i. l)o vou tra\('l about the country In l.hiite a little ndles, in uood weather. •W \\> I. And you cr). Hi ive yon had an\' ojiiioi itmiitv of observin; what IS the feeling of th peoj lie irenei ally as to the drink trade, whether the' think it sliri»iit ,sy>*tein as it was adininistei'od?- Thero was. .■{6-iy7. l)i) you think till' t'eeliny of the people ".as in ojiposition to pi'iinits hciiii,' iiiven, or to prohibition ? — They had an objection to permits being j;iven. .'^G'iOtJ. If it was a 4|uestion of prohil)ition rernini license, wliat wonld be the result ? • -1 have good reason to believe, there would be a niajoi'ity in favour of |)i'ohi)>itinn. ;}049y. Do you think in tht country places wher ■ you visit there is a desire fur the cstablislunent of liquor selling j)laces ? — 1 do not. ;{C500. I need scarcely ask you if you are in syinpii:iy with the views expressed by your IxKly, and whether you believe in general prohibition or not? — I do. .'UioOl. Do you think it would be safe to enact a general jirohibitoi-v law and take liic ciiance of its enforcement? --I think so, if the voice of the ueople is to that ellcct, as the Government has a I'ight to obey the wishes of the people. By Judge McDonald : ;3Gr)02. What is your view of the license system? — My view is that it is not expe- dient. It may be a good thing so far as it restricts the tratHc. .■5(;.*)03. Then you are !iot opposed on princij)le to the licensing of the traffic ? — No. .'50504. You have stated that permits were granted indiscriminately. What reason liave you for saying so? — The statements of iiulividualr-. ;5().")0r». Which you have heard repeated, I suppose ? — Yes. .'5Gr)0G. You have spoken fif tiie sale of licjuor illicitly hmt l)ais. 1 lid you nieiin other than four pel' cent bet-r ?- -I could not say. 31)507. You do not know whether any drunkenness was caused by four per cent i)eer or not? — No. .'{6508. Ho you do not know whether tlu; permits had tr) do with the incicascd (ininkenness? — I am not sure. .'il)50!). You know nothing of that ? — No. ;>t)510. You have stated that you believe the sentiment of the people is in favour ,)f prohibition and against license. Taking your residence here for one year, your know- ledge of the Territories and your experience in liegina and 20 miles beyond, whom ilo you think really posses.ses the better knowledge of the feeling of the people, the oHicers of the North-west Mounted Police or yourstjlf? — That would depentl on what o{)por- uiiiities they possessed to study the feeling of the people. 136511. Judging from the experience of the prohiliitoiy system so far as it pi'evailed, who would possess the better knowledge of the practicability of enforcing a general liidhi'oitory law, you or the othcers of the Mountetl Police? — 1 sujipose they would, if till y were faithful to their duties. ;i65i2. Have you retison to believe that they were not faithful in the discharge of 'lii'ir duties? — The reason that is commonly given is, that in some ciiscs they were not laithftil to their duties. :>r)5i;3. Can you specify the locidity and name the place and party. I nie.in the inialiiv where they were not faithful to their duties, and the ntinu^s of the pei'sons who made that statement? — I could not do it. 1 could refer to instances in the town, but I could not give na^s ; I mean instances which came under my own pei-sonal obser- \ation. •'U'>514. Did you call their attention to those cases? — 1 did. .'<65I5. What did they say? They did not stiy anything. It was not an o'Mcial notice, but a notice in pi'ivat(^ and in the papers. •■<6516. You did not give notice through an ofticer, then '.- Ves. •'56517. Do you mean by speaking among friends? — Yes, and in my public capacity, .'56518. Do you mean from the pulpit ?— Yes, befoi-e ajid after. 36519. Do you hold any official position in the temperance order ;— No, ] am only ii iiu'iiiber of it. .'16520. Did you ever call the attention of the Li(iUtenant-(to\ernoi or of any of his utlici'i's to those alleged infractions? — No ; for I hail good reason to Ijelieve they would not he attended to. •56521. You . I)id you call tlic attention of tlii' Coniniissiutior ot' tlit- .Mounted Police tn tliat mutter? I did not. ,■{(5524. ilii\e you luid jiny experieni/e of |iroliil)ition in any otliec place tlian liei'c ' — To ii iiniited extent in New l''run.-.^wick. 'M\'y2^). In what jiart / -Ks|j<('idly in St. .lolni County. .'U>.")2ti. Had you any expeiieiice in Portland '. - Yes. .■)().")'J7. Mow was proliilntion enforced there ? The Seott Act was enforced to a limited extent ; hut owinu' to the appfoachiii!,' union of the two cities, St. John and Portlanil, almost every one was aj^ainst it. ."{tia'JS. I>o you tinnk it worked well to a linnted extent .' -Yes. .■U).")2!t. I>id the otlicials see it enforced there ? — They did latter';/. .'{(i.j.'JO. Aiul in the end it was repealed .'—Yes. in that part or St. John. .'Ui.T.'U. Have you had any other experienc<' of prohihition except in New r.riin'..\\ icl and ill the North-west Territories?- -That, i.s ail. A'// /,'rr. I)r Mrl.r,>,l : 'M'uVl. l)o you know whether any htcal (|uestions or dilllculties interfered witli liic better enforcement of the Act in Portland; — Yes. The Council were pressed to appoint an Inspector, which they did not do, antl there was nohudy to enforce the law. ;{(■>").'?:!. Did you oliser\(' thewoikiiii; of the Scott Act in St. Martin's, in thcCouniy of St. John ? I did. :)(ir);i4. Jlow did it work there \ It worked well, with the exception of the last --i.N months, and e\cn then convictions were obtained when (U'osei'Utions were institutetl, .■{(i"):}."). Speakin.i; of the license .system, do you approve of the license or the ]ir(ilii- bition in the system '. Thi' prohibition in the system. :!().■».'{(■). I )o you approve of iiceiis(< only so far as it tMnbodies prohibition, or do \iiii apj)ro\eof iierinissioii, uhicli permits pco|)lc to si-H .' — ( Inly so far as the syslein i- prohibitory. .S().").'$7. Have you any knowjedme wliicli will enable you to express an t)piidon as \^> whether the Legislature of the Teiritori<'S ex|ii'cssed the deliberately declared will of l!ii people by the enactment of a license law ? I have knowlt>dife which leads me to believe that they did not : in iiiy opinion, it was a breach of trust ; that is the action of th'' [iei,'islatuie in enactini;- a license law independent to a lari;e extent of the \oice of I lie people. Ily Jn(l'ou ;;ave t hat last answer, the expression of your opinion that the Leui--- laturc had been u'uiltv of breach of trust, from what you have heard individuals say .' - Y'es. ■ ■ ■ ' .■iti.").'ill. li;is that opinion been expressed at a imblic ^atherinj.;- of the ])eople cillcd for the purpose of considering that proposition ,' Has any member of the Legislaiim' been lalled upon to resign his seat for having voted in fa\tiurof license '. - Not tliai I know of, .'{(in p,». Ho you know instances in which the people have taken the necessary s|c|l^ to pre\ent licenses beiir,' issued by calling for a vote of tiie people on the subject, a> urovided for in the ( >r(linance f — Not that I know of, as \ct. •'!()."> 4 1 . And uiidei' the law ] >rovisu)n w as made at the \erv outset to enalilciln peopi to eh to d( bef T was labouring under the impression that a certaii rth of time li.i' 'ore action could be tak en. .'{().■■) 11!. Pi-i)\isioii was made that this action could betaken by the peo] lie at 111'- itset, Jiut it has been stated that the reason whv it was n(jt dc ras the f;ul lli.U tl peo] itl le le dlttnuh v I iCL'! ;lat of 8 --'00. re(|uired to deposit Si'OO before the \'ote could be taken, aiul tha Yes, that was found to be a ilitlicult\ amendment maile to the law. 1 \Vil~ .\t the last session "t tin' ure there was an Si 00 was user ted lllStC'lU Ki:v. John H. King 338 lilill BBi i*^. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ion iis til ill of t!lr Ihr 1. |.e,i;isliiniii ut that I :aiv • lUllili- nil tiiiii' hai t'iiol th.i ll thilt \v:i ;}t).")4U. You siiukf of 8t. Miirtins, ,iiul mciitioned tlmt duriiij^ rlic lust six inoutlis tlid law WHS not satist'iictorily fiirr'icd out. In what way was it not satist'actorilv cn- t'orccd .' — 'i'lic fact was that tlii' olliccis w^tc the wrong person^, in tiic i-sf iuiation of the peoplf. .'$(')."» It. l>o ynu mean they were not in sympathy with tlic ('aforccnieiit of the law ? Yes, and tlu'i'c were proofs ni that. ;i().")|."i. I$y whom Wfi'i> the ollirials appointed? I do not know. .■W)54ti. Were thfv appointed hy the .Munii'ipai Couneil '. I think so. •'?t)-")t7. The ]\[uniL'ipal C/ouiieil represented the people; they were olecled hytiie people, were they not .' — I think so. .■!(ir)4H. How, then, does it oeeur that such ollieers were appointed in the eoniinu- iiity wliere the people wi>iiod to have the law enforced ! Perhaps they obtained ollice hy corrupt means ; tliey sometimes did so. .'il').") I'.). If the majority of tlie |)eopli' were in favour of the Scott .Vet and itsenforee- iiii'iit, and yet solei'led otlicers who were not in favour of (he Act, wiiat was the ejuise ? — I tiiink this matter wjis lost sight of at the time of the elections. ;}().").')0. You think it must luue heen lost sight of .'—Yes, and other issues must liave come up. ;)(').").")1. What led to such men heing in favour with the temperance people of the r.iinmunity and s(Hiiring election .' — 1 do not know. % /i'-r. Dr. M<-Lrnd: ."iti ■")")•_'. Are \r(jhil)ition '. — Not to my knowledg(?. Since J liavt .,v..,.. ..^ ..,..,,.,„ ,„ 1 have known of petitions being signed anil presented to diOerent 3Ieniber.s ; in .-.ouie cases they were presented and in others were l\ot presented. 'i(i.")r)4. Ki'terring to the issue of licenses at certain places, it appears that no portion of the Territories has taken steps to jirevent the issue of licenses. I think yoii said that you had arrived at the conclusion that this was l)ecause they could not act at that time ? — I had that impression. The wording of section 48, sub.sectio!i 2, makes |)rovision for that, and after stating altout the 8200 it goes on to say that when a iv(|iiisitii)n is presented •' re((uesting a vote to be taken as to whether oi' not such license shall issue or be gi'anted therein, it shall be the duty of such ("ommissionei', upon the riid you find it impracticable?— Yes. :iG.').")S. You say it would be imiiracticable to carry out thetparlof the law/ — Y'es. Bij Rer. D)\ McLfod: .'It).").')!). You believe it impracticable ? — Yes. ■iiiritiO. Do you mean to say that you belie\e it to be impracticable under tli iiviiuistances ? — Uiuler the circumstances as they were — not that it is impossible. 339 21--22i* Liquor Traflic — Nortli-wost Tei'iitories. JA.MKS (.'!{ HA.M I'^lt, nf l{i'f,'iiia. M'icriiiarv sur^'oon, on hi'in^^duly sworn, tle|n»stMl as follows ;-- By ,/iir)(')L'. VVlicni (lid yon reside het'ore thiit ?--Tn Ontario. .■>•)")('(.■{. Ill what part ? I eanie tVoni tlie I'ounty of Middii-sex. .'It)ri(i4. Wliat law was in force tliere in re;,'ard to the li(|uor tratlic .' — A license lau. .■!(').')()"). l)id the Scott Act come into forci- lu'fore you left Ontai'io f- No. .■5Gr)(Ui. Have you had much experience of a pmhihitory law anywiiere else than in the North-west Territories .' — No. .'td.")!)?. Since 1st .May a license law has lieen in force, T helieve ?— Yes. .■?(i.")t)8. Takini; the prohibitory enactment as it was enforced, and the license law since 1st of May, which do you tind to lie |ireferal»le .' The license law, .'JGofiO. hid vniitind that liiiuor was hroui^hi into tlu^ country under the old system/- Yes. 36570. We understand lliatuf^reat deal of li(|uor was siiiUL;;;led into the count ry .' It was. ."iCi.JTl. it has also heen slated that some of the iiiiuor was of very poor (piality ? — Yes, .■<6572. And that pain-killer, eau de Coloj,;ne and othei'suhstances of that kind wciv used by the peojde for lieverafje purposes. Have you any knowled;;eof that f - Yes. 1 have known red ink to lie u.sed. 'M\'u'.\. You say you have known of red ink lieinj; used? — Ves. .'i().")74. Who were the people who used those li(|uids ? I could not say particidai i\, the ]teople who lived in th. It ha.s Keen ('('presented that those compounds wei( only use. Do you know any other sul)stances that were used ? Wtr have heard of Si, Jaoobs's Oil beint; used. — 1 have heard so, but J never saw it useil. .■5()."),H(), We ha\e been told that Florida water was used? — Yes. Bdo^l. Have you reason to believe that the North-west Mt)unted Police endea\ ound to carry out the law ? — Yes, T think so. .■{().")8'_>. Were they vigilant ? — I think so. .■5().')8."5, You have no rea.son to doubt their faithfulness, and that they did their \ cry best to carry out the law so far as it could be carried out? — Not at all. .■i6r)84. From the experience you have liad, do you think it would be pructicahlc to carry out a prohibitory law for this country? — I do not. Bif Bev. Dr. McLtod : ;.U)r)85. Why do you think license i.s preferable to prohibition ? — Because I think the majority of the people will have liquor any way ; if they cannot get it legally, tln'V will > ; 1 woiil old topci- get it .some way. 3(558(1. Do you think it is well to liave it provided for them? — Yes. ."56587. Do you think the liipior trade is at all injurious to the people ?— No, I d'l not, not tlie licensed lii]uor tratlic. ;5()588. Do you think tlnMiidicensed liipior tratlic is injurious? — Yes. .S()58y. Why is tlie trathc injurious when unlicensed and when licensed it is nut(— Becau.se men do not drink with any regularity. .36590. Does the dirt'erence between benefit and injury consist in the diflercme between regularity and irregularity ? — To a very great extent, I think. 365'Jl. You spoke of tlie use of red ink and pain-killer. What did their use .iinl the use of other such articles signify ? — 1 do not understand your ijuestion. J.liMKS CUEAMEH. 340 < 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. "Jl.) A. 1894 ■iivmii'i'ii sticiiblf to illy, til' hi IS (lifVoiviKf h- UM' .■t(jr)lti!. What ilid tlicir use sitf|iit'\ nw tin- pai't of' the |h'ip|(|c wlm usimI llwiii ,' - 'I'lial llicy wiuitcfl a iiiilil stiiiiiiiuiit. .■<(>")!).■?. Is led ink a iiiilil stiiiiiilaiit .' I niuld iiul tell yiiti, I iicvrr diaiik it. .'Uirj'.n. Art' ri'd ink and |pain-killfi- niildcr t'miiis uf stiinidant>. than whisky and hiur J)t'i' ci'iit ht'ci' and the like/ Ni», 1 think not. ."itir)!)'). |)u you nut tliink tiiat tiicy arc lathi-r strnn^'cr ! Tlicy wnuld lie with inf. .'((iri'Jt). Tiicn the iiiicstinn ayain cunics, what docs their use sj^^nity hcycind tlic t'act that the |pc(i])|c want stimidants ,' hid it siirnit'y tliat they had id ymi ever know |iersons to form the lial)it of drinkiiiLf stiniulauts through lining pain killer, Tiionias's eleetrie oil, eastoi' oil, red ink, and the like! — I eannot say I did. .'itirjllS, I )id you ol)ser\e that iho-e persons who iiad hi come hahitualed to the use lit whisky, in the al»enie of whisky, le^orled to ^uih diinks .' Tiiev weie not in the iiiiiiority. ;i(i"i',l!l. hoyini think lliey were in the minority? ^'es. .'itidUU. I >o you liiink that if mo--l |ieo|i|e rould gel li(|Uor tiiey would not I'esort to |.;Liii killer '. 1 thitd< -mi. .■iiKlOl. .So was it in the interest of tiie iieople tiiat the drink trade wa.s estahlished ? ^'es : hut ynii |)Ut it in a (|ueer way. i do not think men as a rule would re.sort to Mil ink if they could not get liijuor ; I do not think the majority would do so. T rather think they would resort to some means to get lii|uor, and I think they would get it. .'iti(i02. AX'ould they smuggle it in '.'-- -^'e^. .'iCiGO.S. You do not believe in the iirinci|ile of ])i-ohiliition '. — No. litldOl. Then, if it were practicable, you would not l)elie\e in prohibition '. No, I do not believe in it. .'illCO."). Do you think the drink trade is in any way injurious to the welfare of the I'linnnniity physically, morally or socially ! No. .'iti()l)('), Ha\e you seen any e\il elVects from the trad(> .' The evil I'csults you would liiid would be \ery few. fii/ Judge McDunahl : ■'ilJOOT. Would you .say that those e\ ils w Inch you lia\e seen icstdtcd from the drink tiadc or the drinking habits on the part of the people who purchase liipmr ? -They were due to drunken habits. ."UiGOH. Take the coninuinity as a whole, would you say the projMU'tion of those who ilriiik to excess would foi'ni a lai'ge ]iro]M)ition of the people oi- a small )noportion ? -A Miiiall one, .'i(i()0!t. As 1 undei'stood your answer to l)r. ,McLeod, you said that under tiie old ■-ysteui the majority who wished to drink got liiiuor in one way or another, either by Iiermit or by smuggling? — Yes. ."UiGlO, Hut that the use of red ink was confinerl to the nunority. Suppose a pro- hibitory law wei'e passed, a law to do away with the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic licjuors for Ijeverage pur]ioses, do you think it would lie right that tht.' brew- ers :u\i\ distillers should recei\e remuneration for their loss of plant .' That isaipiestion 1 liiue never given thought to, and I cannot give an intelligent answer in regard to it. Jiy R>-r. Dr. McL.wl: •'U)(ill, Do you see any relation between the di'iidv trade and the drink habit ? —T suppose there is, •'!()(;12, Do you think the establishment of facilities to drink promotes drinking? — 1 lainiot say from my ex[ierience here that it does, but from experiences elsewhere, I think it tends to do .so, ;5()(il3. Do you think prohibition increases it? — Yes, 3tiG14, Anil licensing the ti'ade diminishes it ? — Yes, i :: 1 1 341 IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) I 1.0 I.I 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 J4 -^ 6" — ► ^^ <^ r •s^^ w % rf^ ^*^' ^'^ d? / >^ Photographic Sciences Corporation ^ ip \ 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14S80 (716) 873-4503 c> m Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. ALFRED 1). \Vl{l(iHT, of l{evisions of the law? I have. ;J6624. Do you believe you have done so with success? — I have tried to successfully perform my duties. .'$662'). Have you found any difficttlties in the way ?— I have. .'56626. What are they ? One is that 1 have Ut see a man violate the law ov get in- formation from some one who saw the law violated. I did not tinfl parties who woujil take the oath that they saw the law violated, and so 1 was unable to prosecute. In oin- case I was not allowed to pii»ceed, Iw'cause we had not sufficient proof to prosecute the party concerne the one we have now. .'566.'W. Are you a prohibitionist in principle ? Yes. .'56631. What is your opinion of a license system, I do not mean the license law that may l)e in force in any eonununity, but tlie licensing of the traffic ; do you reganl it as a right or witmg system ? I think it is not right. ;566.'52. Y(ju l)elieve it is wrong in principle to license the traffic? -I do. 1 believe iji limiting the number of houses selling. .'566.'5.'5. But as a matter of j)rinciple. you think the license system wrong? -Yes. :566:54. Then if you cannot get prohibition, you think it would l)e better to ha\'' a license system ? — Yes, the protective part fif the license system. .'566.'5.5. You say that you lM>lieve the licensing of the traffic is wrong in i)rinci|ile. Then you say that if you could not get prohibition you think the license .system is tin- next best thing. Nf>w, would you prefer (he license system or untrannnelled sale ami no law at all ?— 1 think I would .sooner have the license system. .■566;56. Then you think it l)»'tter to have a license .system than untrammelled sale ' -Yes. .'566.'5r. And that is owing to the prohibitive clauses in the license law ?- Yes. .'566.'58. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, wou' 1 you favuin tite granting of compensation to brewers and distillei-s foi their loss of plant? — i would not. 366:51>. Under the ])ermit system, had you reason to l)elieve that people wei-e selliiiL; illicitly ?"-I fio not know, Imt 1 supp»se they were. •'56640. You are a total abstainer, I suppose ? — Yes. .'56641. You have not partaken of li<|Uor at those license44. Are your duties confined to Regina ? -To Regina district. .'M)64r». That covers a large territory, I suppose ? — It does. .'{0(540. Do you have to visit outlying places at certain times? — No. At least I do not. unless an information comes in to me. ■"{0047. Is your salary sufficient to warrant you in going to visit outlying places? — We are paid so much for each hotel licensee we catch violating the law. We are also ji.iid accoitling to the number of licenses granted ; we now receive .*2.*) for each hi>tel or wholcsjile license granted. .■>0048. In case you obtain convictions against any person for violation of the law (111 yiiu receive any part of the fine?— I cannot tell you whether I would receive .*.*) or not in the shape of expenses. If I had to lea\e town, 1 suppose 1 wciuld be paid. .50049. I un0. As the (juestion of compounds has been fi'e(|uently referred to, I might ask \ I HI whether you know anything about their use in the towns of Ontario! I do. I ii'iMcniber Patterson's Foundry, on' and a half miles frrmi Richmond Hill. There was a man who had "pain-killer ' in th'! foundry. The men would take a drink of pain- killer from the bottle, and then a cup of water. .'10051. Have you any knowledge whether painkillei' was used in the Territories liet'iiif the license system was introduced ? — Not except from what I heard. •'>G0.'J2. Do you think painkiller is a worse coiniiound to use nmler license than uniitT piohibition ? — No. IM. i ' i i |{i:\. AXtiUS .1. McLKOD, of Regina, on being duly swurii. deposed as follows : — III/ .Tiiilye Mi'Dniinld .- ."«(it').*i:{. In what work are you engaged ? — I am engaged in the Indian IMucational Work. '>li()."»4. At what institution? — At the Regina Indian .School. .'ttiC).")."). Of what church ar" you a minister? Of the Vresbyterian t'hufcli. ;!00."»0. Is tiiat schof)l under the control of the church .' It is controlled entirely liy the Government, which has placed the school under the Prcsbyteiian Church. The 'imiili luvs something to do with the appointment of otficeis. The system }»re\ails in vlic North-west of the religious bodies being connected with the institutions more oi' le.ss. .'tii(i.''»7. How long have you resided here .' Since the opening of the school, a little MMi- a year and a half. '(iti.'iS. Did you come here from one of the other piov iiices .' — T came from .Medicine Ihii '>ii0.''>9. How long were you there? — One year. '■•iOOO. Where were you previously ? — At Ranff. where T had Ihmmi two yi-ars. ■iOOOl. Where were you previous to that time? I was foniierly in Toronto. .'10002. So you are of the Province of Ontrtrio? — T am. .'10063. What years were you at Rantf? 1S8H and 1889. .'>00(»4, Were you there as a resident minister ? — 1 was. ilOOO.'i. What was the state of things there in i-egard to the li«|Uor traffic! -There w.is ciinsiflerable agitation alwut the traffic. •tOOOO. Was the permit system in force ? — Yes. 10007. Were there anv hotels there at that time? — There was. Tliert- was a 8iiiiitaiium there. 348 i- il^ rrrr ii» i' (ill^ Liquor Trnftic — North-west Territories. .'JCridJS. Wiia tlit're sale iit those places ? — I could not say that theit" wiis, Ijut tiiere was su{)|X)s(h1 to Ix). .'16669. W«T«' tliei't' any complaints made of li(|Uor l)eing smuggled in from British Columbia ? -Then' were. ;U)(»7U. How fa;' wfic you from the British Columbia boundary ?- Alx»ut 60 miles. .'<6071. Did you ever hear anything of i.-ompounds, .such as pain-killer, eau de Cologne and Florida water <)eing used in that section of the North-west Territory? — 1 heard referen(;es to their use. :<<)ti7_'. You saw nothing of such use yourself? — Nothing. .■{()67."5. How did you find things at Medicine Hat? — I found things about tin- same as in the n ountains. .■W)67l. I suppise no ii(|Uor is allowed at the Indian School? — No. .■1667"). It is kept strictly away from the pupils? — ^Yes. .■Uif)76. What are tiieages of your pupils? — From four or five years up to eighteen yeais. .'{6677. Do you find any attempts niaSI. Are you ynuiself favourable to prohibition ? — I am. 'MWf<-2. As a'matter of principle? Yes. .'U)68.'{. What is your view in regard to licensing the trurtic : do you consider ir right or wrong in principle? -I think it is wrong. .'566S4. Incaseoftlie enactment of a general prohibitorj' law, would you deem it right and just that brewers and distillers .should receive renuineration for plant ami machineiy rendered useless? — I think not. H;/I{>v. Or. Mcl.eod: .'U)6S.''». Which is the better fi>r the Indians, prohibitinn even attended by a jierniit system, or the license system? I think prohibition. .'<66S6. W'liich do you think is preferable to the white settlers, prohibition with tli< laxity of the permit system, or a license .system as it now exists? — T think the for ci- system, with all its faults, was l)etter. Itij Jiidtj^ Mclhnuihl : 366S7. What has l)een your experience ? — I had '( the Mounted Police, a gootl deal of liipior snmggled into the Territories. 36688. Within the Innits of the North-west Territories ?— Yes. 36680. Was it your opinion that the |)olice were vigilant ? Some were extremely vigilant. Riv. Ajfofs J. McLeod. H44 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) \. 1894 ENOCH COLPITIS, nf Moose .fiiw, gat-dener, f my residence in M called me a good deal of the time on the streets. .'5()70.'5. When did that condition of things change? The most noticeable change was after the intrcxluction of the foui- per cent beer. .'56704. When sale commenced? -Yes, everything was four per cent U'er. .'5670.'). Had you reason to lielieve that the [>eople sold a little of everything? Yes, \ory giMxl reason. .'56706. What was the condition of things then as compared with the condition of things in earlier years ? — 100 per cent worse. .'56707. Was there a gocKl deal of drinking ? — Yes. Were the effects of drinking ob.servable to everyliody ?— Yes. That went on from 18^9 to May 1st of this year, 1 suppose? — Yes. How many licenses are issued in Mse .Jaw? Two hotel and one whole- .'5670H. .'56709. .'56710. sail lice I '?— .Just the same as every- •'5(5711. What is the condition of things undei where else uniler license —as i)ad as it can be. •'5(5712. How about the fimr per cent arrangement? — So far as my observation goes :is it'gaixls .seeing men under the influence of liijuor, then' is a difference in the appear- ance of the streets and there is more drinking. •'56713. From your observation you think the licensing of the trale of the community than was the old permit system? — It certainly is. I 1. 1'^671"». Taking the three systems side l)y side, the permit .system, the four per cent litH'rplan and the license .system, which do you prefer? — The permit .system of the early ilays. 36716. Are you a believer in prohibition? — Yes. .34S I! tlii I Liquor Trattic — North-west Territories. 36717. You Imlieve prohibition for tlie whole country U desirable? — 1 do. ;i()718. Do you think, after a iVHidcnce of 10 yeurs liere, it could l)e practically enforcetl here ? — Tt would be in the Moose Jaw district, .to far a.s my knowledge goes ; I cannot say anything else. .'16719. How large a district is that? — It covers a tract on the Canadian PaciHc Railway clxiut "JO miles and south to Willow Ilrook, a distance of aljout 60 miles. 'M\720. You are sure that in that district prohibition wouhl Ije practicable ? — Yes, I feel so from the experience of the early days under the |)ermit system. I know it was practically carrinl out then, and the ti-mp'rance sentiment has not diminished in the district since that time. .'{6721. In the election of menilH'rs for the L«'gisiature, was the ijuestion of license really an issue Iwfore the people ? It was not lx'f:)ro the candidates declarinl themselves in favoui" of licen.se. They stavetl that (|uestioii off, as it was a difficult i^sue. The election was run inde|>endent of license as an issue. 3672'2. What was tlie issue ? The contest was iM-tween one man and another. do. /iy Judijf McDonald : 39723. You think the sentiment in your district is favourable to prohibition ?— I .'$6724. How do you account for this fact, that the only issue was between man and man, that the greater portion of the candidates to the I^'gislature favoured license and were not, in accord with your statement, with the prevailing sentiment of the com- munity? You say it was a man and man contest, yet generally Iwith candidates were in favcjur of license. How do you account for the fact that no temperance man ai)peared in the contest ? — It was just on this ground: Mr. Ross was our former member. He declared himself in favour of licen.se. Mr. (lordon then came out, and when the ques- tion came \\\t declared himself in favour of licen.se. They were l)oth sup|M)sed to b«! very strong m<>n and hiul a great many jiersonal frie.Mds. The tem|>erance people thought of starting a man ; but on considering the matter they came to the conclusion that on account of the per.sonal est^'em in which the two men wei-e held, one or tlie other of them would l)e elected. 3672.''). Supposing a temperance candidate had cometuit, would not the temjH'rance sentiment have l»een strong enough to elect him, or would the t^-niperanco men, owing to per.sonal preferen.-e for one of the othei- men, have sujiported one of the original candi- date.'^ '.■ 1 l)elieve they would have done so. 3672(i. You have expressed your opinion that in youi- to tlo so. .3fi73(5. And you c.-iisider it would Ix' piactieahle to enforce suilt a law in the Moose .law (listrit't ? — Of i-ourse there would \h', infractions of the law, but there are infractions of the present law. .1()7.'17. Would you have the tMiforcenient of the law entrusteil to the municipal authorities ? — No. .'{r»7.'7.39. How many would you recpiirefor the Mmtse .J aw district ? — If the MtMise.Iaw di.strict was the only place where li(|Uor W(»uld Im' handled, very little force would be retiuin-d. .'{<)740. Is it H station for the North-west ^founted Police? There is only one ullicer there. .■742. Howisit to the south of you ? (}oing south nf MiHise.hiw the wliitesettlement does not extend very far, but there is a large settlement nf Half-breeds at Willow ltriM)k. There is a police station at W(hhI Mountain, L".( miles from the st^ttlement. * .■W»7I.3. You think Mtills, how would you propose tu nu-et those ditHeulties? It would have to be dune by ilie force and by the Inspector. .'i(i74r). Woulil the force not ha\e to be amounted one ? Yes. ■■{674t>. And with a sutlicient force you think it could lie done? —I «lo. ■■{<>747. You think snmggling would be prevented? Yes. In the wintei of 1884 there was a still stai'ted in the district of MuiYaio Lake, but it was soon broken up. •■5<>748. |{y whom .' Hy (he Mounte)•. AfrLn>,f 'M75'2. About the election. Wa.s the understanding when the mem Iters weic elected that a licen.se law was to be enacted at the next se.ssion of the I.iegislatme without let'erence to the will of the people ? -It was understood at that time that tlie License .Vet would be one of the (luestions dealt with, and our mendtei', Mr. Hoss. exjiressed himself as U-ing favourable to a plebiscite oi> the ijuestion. .■t(17">.'{. I)id the (piestion of a plebiscite come ujj in the l^egislature did. but it had a very weak following and did not amount t'<> aiivthini;. .■t(>7ri4. Have you kno\vledge which leads you to believe that there are violations of the law at McMwe .law by the licensees? I think so. While I have reason to Uilicive that the wholesale dealer does not violate the law in any respect, the other dealers, I think, viol.ite it repeatedly, by selling after hours and on the Sabbath, ank it iliil fF il m l*! :'»H M I? iill!: ilp 1 : \{ . a ■■ f "■ . liL^isi,.. Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories. M07')<>. You huve rejison to Wlieve tliat tliose dealei-s sell to ininui-K ? — Yes. .'{GTi')?. Have you furnished the niime.s of minors to the otHeers f - Yes. There was one case of a lx»y who wa« employed by a party who wished to procure liquor. The l»oy obtainetl liquor. He way willing tt) testify, and the Inspector t«M»k the matter to Mr. tf. C. Pope, and he claimed that under the provisions of the law a conviction could not Ite procured as he was only acting as agent in pr{«» uiuler the old systfiii nt' the ns«' ut" {Miin-killn- ami eHU do Cologne iiiul .such Hul)stanc<;s hh beverages? -I hnd iint, although I hav*' heanl statements tliat surh wen- iiwhI. I havir He«ii ni«'n take Kluridn water. •(677'.(. In caHe of the eiiactinent of a general pntliibitury law would you favour tlio granting of payment to brewers and distillers for their loss «if plant and inm'hinery 1 — That is a matter I never considered. Jiy Rev. Dr. McLewl : MilHO. We luul it in evidence from a livery-stable kwper in Prince All>ert that the large percentage of damages done to rigs was cau.sed by drunkenness. Have you ol)sftrved anything of that kinle to the drinking habits of men who hire the rigs'/ I cannot say. We are very careful, and we generally send a man with the rig. ;Jti7f<"J. You have expressetl your j)reforence for a licen.se system over the permit system ? — Yes, j)ersf»nally. ;{(t783. Have joa thought of the <|uestion of prohibition, and have you arrived at an opinion as t<» the enactment of such a law for the whole country? — I have not coir sidere« carri(!<. Mow <|() yi stM'iiietl to think that it did nut work ; it won on Hoi-ouiit of its iKtinx a lal Hti'uir. .'J(17!Mt. How do yon in«'iin (imuI / -One County would hiive the Scott Act and the next would have li(|uor. MtiHOO. Wliiit is the udjoininv; County to l)urliain? —Ontario. .'M5H01. What hiw was in force there? I do not rnniemU'r. 36802. Was not the Hcott Act also in force in Ontario? I did not mean in re^jard to one sin>;le county, l)ut tiie |)eo|ile seeineul)le was because the Act wa> iulopted in ditl'erent countie-. and was not for tiie whole province. ;{()SO.l. Did they think it did not work efiiciently f They thought it was not a |)er- fect success. I do not say it was a |K'rt'ect suci-e.ss, hut 1 think it worked well. 3Gf*()4. Can you undei-staml how the |»«'ople, feeling a )^reat improvement had taken place, did not supjMirt it liutdesirtnl to f{o liack to licen.se? -No; 1 was sui'prised. .'Mi'<0."), .Are you a prohiWilionist in principle?- Ye.s, since 18^6. .'WlcSOd. W(>ie you not prohiWitionist Iw-fore that ! Xo. .■{<)H()7. I>i(? Yes. JJdSttK. hoyou consider it to he a sin to license the sale of litjuor ! Yes. .St'iHlO, hoyou favour the passajje of a >,'eneral pmhiliitory law? Yes. ;U)S| 1. You look uiKin such a law as that to U' ri;;ht in principle? Yes. .'«»S|2. In case of the passinj; of such a law, woultl you favour the granting of coni- ptinsation to hrewers and distillers for their loss of plant i — No, I do not think 1 would. .'{GHl.'i. Kroni your experience, was the prohibitory law well enforced in the North west Tcrritoi'ies ? - \'es, comparatively. • ;{(»H14. What tlo you mean liy conij)aratively I -There wei-e some infractions ui\der the St'ott Act and some sniud Police a-ssisted in keeping lii{Uor out of the county '. Y'es. .'J()8lS. And keepintf out illicit stills /—Ye.s. .'i6fniiiin in a half intoxii-at«>H:t7. I >o you make it a condition with men you em|)loy that they shall lie total abstainers f I never say anythin<; alniut it. I wrote to ( )ntariu fur one nuui and said that I could give him .so much a day if hi; came, hut that if he drank any Iteer. I re .served to niy.s«'lf the rijfht to rechuu; his wages or to discharge him altogether. ;{(i,s;{8. |)o you not employ any men except total abstainers .'--No, I do not a-. ,i rule, unless I want a man for a time or when I have a rush on. ;ir>H3!*. Then you always contiiie yourself to total ah. tainers f — No. .'{Ct*4U. Y'ou Would not employ any man who takes a glass of lieer once or twice .i day? — I do not know that I would b«> so jiarticular as that, hut I dn nut want .( man wlio takes liipior occasiniiallN. JOHN U. KKItIi, of liegina, harduui'e merchant, on licjng duly sworn, as follows : — epo By Jiidgp MrDiinahi : .■5<)HH. How long have you resiilcd in Hegina .' Ahoul 1 years. .'{tjS4"_'. Have you resided anywhei Ise in the North-west Territories '? No. .'Jt(84."<. I)id you come here from one of the other provinces/ — J came from the County of Perth, Ontario. .'{tjSti. Was ■», license systiun in force there .' It was. .■{(iS4."i. \'ou have .seen the working of the old law in the North-west Territorie.-., the prohiliitory system and al.so the license law here since 1st May .' Yes. .■{<»S4(i. Which do you consider preferahle ? — I consider the |ir'e.s(*nt law piefei .il»le, .■{list?. Mid you find that un(). Do y4)u know anything alniut the use of pain-killer and eau de Cologne and other similar comjxiunds hi-ouglit in when the |ieruiit system was in force ?--Y^es. I have seen a large sizeunds that were originally lirought in for medicimil purposes were u.setl as l>«'verages when the p-ople could not get liijuor? Yes. CSrocei-s .sold a great deal of extracts anil other articles that were generally us»;d for cooking, such as vanilla. .{(jHr).'. Judging from your experience, do you think it woulil he practicable to en- force a i^eneral prohiliitory law in these Territories? — I do not think so. 351 1 1 ! ii I ■ I •! I n I ilH Lii^uor Trartic — North-west Territuries. .'«iHr);l, In I'HHt' lit' tli)> fnaotiiuMit nf hucIi k liiw, would you favour th<> urKntiit^ ut' i-niii(K)nHtitioii to hri>w«>rH and tliHtillt>n« for plant anil inaoliin«>rv ri^ndi^nnl uncIpmr ? - 1 f they invi'MUnl tnoncy undor a lioenM« systi'in, I ct^rtainly would favour (>oiii|H'nHation. ■'I68rit. Havu you rciiHon U> \ni\ivvt> that illii-it Htills pntvailed to any fxtent in tin- TerritorifH ? I liav«> no |M>Hitiv« knowlcd^i;, hut I am alinoMt i-«>rt4iin tlx^y cxiMUHl. .'U>H').*i. l)o you «>inploy any umn I Just a dork in the store. /{j/ Jiev. Or. Mi-lMtd: .'ttiHBti, Why do you n'^anl liccnw as |irpf**rahle to prohiliition. Htatf your rcaitons, lirictly ( -I iiav« MM^n prohihitioii, Mocallcd prohihition, hut it did not prohiiiit tii«> tratlic. :i(iH.'i7. Was it not |M!rniisHion and not prohihition?- Yo\i might call it that. .ttiS.'iH, You rogard lifi-nsif as pri^forahle to that systoni '/ — Yes. ;i6H.")i», Why is license pr-eferahle to pi-ohiliition, well enforceil 1 I think men should Im- allowiHl the lilterty of taking wine or anything they wish. .■$('ifo<>s the license law provide for the use of wine and liquors in moth'ration only ( — If pri>|K'rly enforced. ."KiStil. That hrings up another ()U«Mtion. Is the licenue sy8t.«'m pro|K'rly enforce4. I >o you tihjeot to prohihition on principle ? — \'es. .UiSO"). Do you object to the prohibition in the licen.se law, the provisions prohibit- ing xale after hours and on th" Sabbath ! —No, I do not. SfiStiCi. Then the proliibition to which you iibjj'ct is general |)riihibition. You an- iiware that tuilc is restricted to certain hours. You do not objei't to that, I supj)osc ! —No. .itiHCi". You think that is proper?- Yes. :U)8GH. Why is it propei- to prohibit sale they want liipior, then- are certain times whei hotels op««n all night, they would certainly Ik> (lisreputable places. ."16869. Is not that restriction an interference with personal liberty? If 1 want lu get a iitai'iii. |M'iiiiit system ill tin- Nmlli west Hvstfiii of iNMiiii^ |ii'niiits iliil mil (JKOIMIF'. WlhMAM IU«)\V\. .,f 1{. ■>{{,„». |,iu i|i'|iiimmI as followH : ////./(«./(/. .1/. />.,».(/// ;tt»H7.'V Mow limy liavr you rcsiilitl in Iti'ijiiia Im>I Wfi-ii tlin-i' anil four years, and i M-M-ii years lonp'r in the ilistriet than in the town. .'ttiM"!. IHll you I'oine here from one of the lithe .'l(»M7r). Kroin what County f l''roin (ii-ey. //../ A'-c. Dr. Mrho ry selilmn saw a iltunken man. As the system of |ierinils iH-eame eiilar;;eil, more lii|u< ° is liriiu<,'ht in, and it was more ditKeiill to tell whether the liijuor was leyal or illepil. und a lot was siiiui;!.'le(l in iliiiler old permits that had Ween e.xhaust<>d. ■'I<>''<77. I'id the iM-rmit system eoniinue to exteni' ■ rejuani to tlir iiumher of per itiit.s ! I have no otlleial ground for my statement, Uiii ii was j/ -iieriilli' understood when I lirst eiiine ' -re. which wasalxuil the iM'Kiniiiii;,' of i Jii\eriior l>i'>vdney's adimnist rat ion. Hinder v,i ,. '. iioi |.,airil there were very few |iei'iiiits is.sued' thul iiie :iiimlM-r was increas- iiii;. There seemed ;o i-emme liipior lirou;;ht into the eountry, at allevents. With the .(•lit of < iiiveriior UoyaTs administrution there was tl'n eoiiimeiieeinent of four per cent U-er iH'iny liroii;r|it in, and we saw still more (H-rmits issm-d. .'U»S7H. When the four per cent iM'er plan was iiit riHlueeil, was liijUoi iVi'elv snlil ; Yes. .■t<>S7!t. I)i(l you oliserve whetlier. under eoxer of four per ci'iii lieer. everythinjf in llie shape of li(|Uor was sold ! It was very ditheult to restriet the sale, and thev had llii- ;;iiise under whii-h liipior could Im' sold. .■ttlSMII. l*'ollowin;r the four per cent heer plan came the new law -if this yi'ar. Have M III observed how that w iirks, itiid what have Im-cii the etlects .' 1 suppose that under ilie old permits there was a certain cla.s« of men who jjtit liipior if they wanted it. hut my im]iression is that there is a new class drinkim; freely who iK-foie could not >;et it. Tlii'V could not yet it hefore iM'cause they could not yet |iermii.s, and they com|ilaiiied of ii ; while there is a class who do not drink any more now than they did liefore. .'U)H,s|. From your oltN»>r\atioii in Heyina do you think drinkiny has increased and disoi-ders have liecome niiire nunierous, and that the ett'ects of drinkiiiy have iH-come more apparent ! In the early days a man iniyht lM-(h'unk or slightly under the inlliience ii of tlie total prohibition of tlie iimnufitc- ture, i!iiportiitiori and salt' of al<-oliolir lii|uoi'.s foi' l)f\artii'u!ar study of it. hut I hav« thou;;ht of it. I Ijelievo if aleo- holic li(|uoi's could he coninlctciy excluded fi'oni the country as regards their nuuiufac- lure and sale, such a law could he very well enforced. ;{s to make liipior to do certain things, the law says if you wish to carry on this business, it will give you permission to do so. but will rijtain the I'ight to take it away from you. and you enter upon it on your own responsibility. .■tt)Sl>4. You think that applies to manufacturers ,' Yes. ."idSit.-i. You are a student of law, I believe? — Yes. ."itjSl'C), Have you noticed in the law that any applicant for a license re(|uires to obtain the signatures of a certain nundx-i' of persons in the neighbourhiMxl before he can etiter u]ion his business '. Yes. ."StiSitT. Does that same coui'se re(]uire to be taken year after year / I do not think that it does. ;W)Sl)f<. What inference do you draw from that : is it that when a man has obtained his lit'tMise aiid is in the business, he is allowed to renuiin in it so long as he contiauis to ob(>y the law l It is tli(> same in all jjositions. If I give a man a good chai'acter' ii I'emains until he shows that it should be taken away from him, and anybody can enter a protest against a licen.se being granted to a licensee. ;<()Si(!», You are a prohibitionist im priiu'iple, ] suj)pose?--Yes. .'Ui'.MK). Do you think it is a wrong thing to sell lii|Uor ? 1 could not sell li(|Ucii conscientiously. (iKOHOE WlLl,l.\.M HUOWN. 354 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'UtitOl. I)() you tliiiik it in wroiij; tudriiik li(|Ui)r/ 1 could not dosocimscientiously. ;{tJitO"J. I)o y«»u think it is wronjj to lirense tiic sale of ii(|Uor ! Yes. .■((!!(0."{. You think it is \Nron;; in prini-ipic ( I do. .KiltOI. You tliink tlier*- would be no particular ditliculty in cnt'orcin;,' a ;,'fn<'ral jii'ohibitory law in this country, it' such a measure were passed I I think thei'e is ditli- culty in enforcing; any law. ;{(5!t()r(. Do you think it would he more ditKcult to enforce a ;;eneral pi'ohihitorv law tiian any other law .' Some laws are harder to enforce than others. ;?G!*Uti. i)o you think it would he more ditlicult to enforce a general prohihitorv law I — No, 1 do not. .'UiiiOT. Name any other law that would he as hai'd to enforce ( -Tak(! the i,'amo laws : they are broken every day. ;5(')itO!^. Y'ou i)ut them in the .same catej^'ory ,' I name those as laws that are broken jxilicc did. .■{<)ltlS. So it was found necessary to increiuse the strength of the Mounted Police? Yes. •'t(5!U!). The force had to be increased to enforce the prohibitory law moi'c effect- ually? — I tliink the increa»se in the Mount(Ml Police was not owing to the peniiit .sys- tem. The force was increased when the rebellion of ISS.") tortk place, and I consider it WHS moi'e on account of the state of affairs at that time, because the foi-ce had i)een (liiiiinished until there were only about 700 or SOO men on the force. .'Ui'.tL'O. We will take the number as 700 or SOO. Do you thiiil'^t iiat without their aid you could easily have enforced tlw permit system ? — 1 do not thiuk it was necessary to have nearly so many men to I'liforce it. •■tt')!l21. You think the ]ieople I'oidd easily enforce a prohibitory law/ I tliink it "•oiijil l)t' (Miforced. • ill'.t'jL'. Do you think '.hat t he police or you aie able to form a more correct opinion ! T.ikc the orticers, with ten or fifteen years experience, do you think they are Ix^tter Hiili;(!s than you in regard to the practicability of enforcing a general prohibitory law .' They should know. •'!ll'.)-_';{. Then you think their e.xpei'ieni'e is great(U- than yours f As to the pr.uticability, we have the same opportunities to observe the working of t\w, law. •lti!)2f. You think you have the same opportunities as they have over the whole TiTritory / — Yes, VjecNiu.se tliese men are sent away and are stationed at pai-ticuiar places, and are kept there. •it)l)L'."). Art^ then^ no changes from ]>lace to plat^t^ .' — Yes. • >ri!tL*(>. And do not tin; officers trax'cl about from place to place? -Yes. •itill27. Auv' you think your experience in judging how far it would be practicable to I'lif'orct! a general prohibitory hiw is us wide as theii's? - We are living at the centre ">t ]io|)ulation, and see more people here than they do in any other pait of the country. To a certain extent we have the opportunity of judging all over the whole country. -:i;M ■1:; i I 355 21_23J** IT \\i i M ■ ((■: Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories. ;U)'.(2H. TliHii your chances, you think, are as gfj(Kl »V8 theirs for forming iin opinion. Perliaps you tliink they are better, as you live at the centre? — They are lietter in some ways. ;{()!)2!>. If your conclusions and the i-onclusions arrived at l)y theotticers of the force fiiffer, you think yours would be more likely to be correct / -I do, certainly. .'U)!K"'f(). Y<»u have th« Legislature sitting at Uegina ? — Yes. .'t(>'.(.'$l. It is nuule up of memlwrs from all parts of the country ?-- Yes. :((>i):52. That Legisl;iture enacted a iict'n.se law ? Yes. .■{(i'.):{;{. iJo you think your observation as to what would be best for the country, license or prohibition, is ajit to be more in atHMird with the judgment of the peo]>le than that of the mend)ers of the Legislature f Take the L«'gislature as a whole, they should know ; but you have to consider first whether they are in sympathy with the thing. .'{(ilt.'U. They are the r((pn'sentatives of the jieople, I belie\e, and it is a (|uestion whether they would be able to understand the people's sentiment as a whole better than you wouhl ? -They certainly should 1m^ able to do so. .■$()!tll."). They have gi\tMi expression to their own convictions by enacting a license law. have they not .' — Yes. ;$()'.».■<(!. Hav(' you had anything to do with the enforcement of the law ? — No. ;{T the lice .ISC law came into force. Have you called the attention of the authorities to this fact ? — No. because it occurs right on the streets. .■Ut!l."{H. Have you taken any steps to check it? — No. .■5(>l)."t!t. |)o you tliink the men in the tralKc here break the provisions of the license law ? —When I spokt- of the effects of the law, I did not say that the people in the tratlii' broke the law. .■(•)!( H). ])o you think they break the law ? — I cannot prove it. .■H)y41. Hav(^ you reason to believe they do? — 1 do not know that they do. .■U)!(12. You do not know where the parties whoi.i you saw under the influence ut liipior jirocured that liipior l A great many of those who have acted unseendy on tlif streets have jirocurctl it illegally, of course. .S694.S. You know that as a fact? Yes. .'U)!)44. |)o you know where they get it !-- 1 have no idea where they get it. I haxf seen them around the hotels and have seen them drinking : I saw them last night. I saw several men lighting, and the police came in and took them out. I have not to gi' very far to prove that, iw there are three men in the lock-up. .■W)94r), Do you know anything of the u.se of pain-killer, eau d(^ Cologne and such compounds for beverage |)urj)oses? -They were used fre(iuently, in the early days especially. ."Ulittt). l)o you know anything of the character o^ the licpior snuiggled in from tin- I'nited States? — No, I know nothing Jis to that. .■U)947. You have sp»ken of the Lieutenant-Governor having become a bar-tendii for the Territories? \ .said it was the same as if he was a dispen.ser of liquor. ."tOitlH. Do you know tiiat the Lieutenant-(!overnor made it a rule, in issuing jh'i mits, to require a rciconnnendation from a gentleman of high position ? -Yes. .■{(i94(t. Do you know any other system he could have adopted ? I think the issuiiii: of the pt>rmits for beverage purposes was the exercise of a power l)eyond what tin (loverinnent had any idea of placing in his hands. ;$6!)">0. You say that, he acte«l on the recommendation of leading people ? I do not know exactly the men who made the recommendations, but it was geiiei-ally undei'stooil that the reconunendations were made by different members of tlu^ Legislature. Tliat was the diUiculty. ;U)!)5l. That they were inend)ers of the Legislature ? — Yes. The difticulty was in this way, that if members >f the Legislature asked for [lermits and were refused, tint action might have a result on the next election. A man would be to a large extent biassed and influenced in nuiking recommendations by the very fact that they repii' sented constituencies and that elections might be aft'ected in this way. .■U»!)r>'2. Would not the fact that a member of the Legislatur<^ was refused a permit rally the prohibitionists round him in his constituency ? -I do not know that it wouM. (jeorgi; William Buown. 856 ' ' I ' ! 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ."{(iOoJJ. Take you, yourself, as a student of law iiiul an <)l«(!rver of men, have yi)U ever cimsidered this (juestion : WJiether- the fact that a nienil»ei' of the local l^-f^islatui-e i,'iving these reconunendations, tlie fact of the central (rovernnient increasin<{ the nuni- her of permits, the fact that there was all the time a lessening of the prohihitive part of the system, would indicate that tiie people in the Territories wert; in favour of the freer use of li(|Uors for beverage purposes? — 1 do not think it was any evidence of the growth (if that sentiment, because we liave always Ix'en refused a plebiscite. •'Uiit.') 4. You are a student of law, and as sucli it would not be unfair to ask you this ([lu'stion ; Is a plebiscite consistent with the princij)les of British legislation ' No, it is not. .■{(i!»")u. Might not that fact have inHuenced the (.legislature and men \\ ho base studied the principles of Itritish legislation, in refusing a j)lebiscite ? I belie\e so, but although I have conversed with many, I never heard it brought forward before as an argument against granting a plebi.-jite. not at all evtMits until tin,' subject was brought iiefore the Assembly and discussed generally. From conversations I have had with a great many of the members, it a|)peared that a great many of the members wei'e opposed lo it. .■<()!(•">(]. Can you say how it occurred that with this sentiment existing in faxour of [irohibition and of having a j)lebiscite, the members returned to the Legislaturi' were not in favour of it ?- -Yes. The reason was that the temperance men had not the same iiit"rest in this as had the litjuor men. I am a temperance man and do not diink lic|uor. 1 lia\e no particular interest in the (|uestion. .My interests an; in the bettering of my country and city. I may be wrong in my view, but that is why I do it. ."it)'.)")". How manv were liiiuormen before tliev were licen.scd .' 'J'hev were smug- glers. .■i(>'.l.")S. Were there very few .' I suppo.se there were a great many. ;)(l'.tr)H. Do you nu'an t f -A man who wanted to drink liipioi' had a far greattM' inleiest than another man. They appeared to have greater inllueiice than tiie temper- ance men because they had more at stake, tlu- temperance men having nothing but tlieii' |iiinciples. .ICpIM).'!. What had tlie man who drinks at stake? The desire l!.>7r). We liave i)een t,old by one witness that in his<-onstituency at Moose Jaw the sentiment was in favour of prohibition. Yet Inith candidates were hcense men, and the temperance men did not bring out a candidate, i)ut voted personally as l)etween those two men. Do you know whether that was the case in any other section of th*^ country? — ^In some places both men were prohibitionists and in others both li(|uor men. •Wiit'ti. How many proiiibitionists were there in the Legislature when the license i)ill came up and was submitted? —I do not know. .UiDTT. What is the total nund>er of Mendjers in the TiCgislature? — Twenty-six. ;U>978. How many voted against the license law? — F do not know. .■U)97!t. Have you any idea, approximately? I have an idea that tiiere were six or seven pi-ohibitionists. .'ifi'JHO. Six or seven out of twenty-six members ? — There were about that number. lUj Rev. Dr. MiUod: .'Ujy.Sl. Did you observe whether after the introduction of the four per cent beer plan that plenty of four per cent Ijeer permits were issued ? — The four per cent beer people were always i favour of having a license law ; tliat is so far as 1 met with them and conversed with them. .■t()!IH2. Theii" inclination was in that direction and was towards that end ? — Ye.s. m. JOHN U. ('. Hr)NEYMAN, of Tlegina, journalist, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows :-- Ihj Juihje McDonald : '.W9f<:\. How long have you resided in Uegina ? — I came to this countiy in 1S8.">. •■5()984. Where diil you come from? — From Scotland. ;H)!*8r). Were you connected witli the North-west Mounted Police? — Yes: 1 was five years on the force. .■$(>!)8(i. During that time was it part of your duty to try and enforce the proliibitory system ? -Yes. .■i(>!)87. From your knowledge, did the police do their work with diligence and faitli- fuily endeavoui' to carry out tlie law ? They would not go out of their way to look for violations. If iiipior came under their notice, they would endeavour to enforces the law, but the sentiment of the force was against going out of the way to obtain convictions against people. .■l(»988. Why was that tiie case ,' —They felt it was a sort of underhand thing to do. .•?698(». Did they faithfully patrol the country '-Ye.s. .'I()9!t0. Did they try to prevent snniggling ? — Yes. •UiiMtl. And it was the right of search they did not care to exercise uidess thev were comjH'lled to do so, 1 sujipose ?- Exactly. .■t(»992. liut .so far as preventing liquor coming into the country, they acted willi vigilance ? Yes. .'Ui99;t. What was your experience: was there much smuggling?--! never had occasion to .see aay my.self, but I wjis in the t'onnnissioner's oilice, and I know there was a lot of snniggling, especially in the west. There were illicit stills also. One was at .^^oose Jaw — at least I heard of one there, and one at Battleford. There was a seizure made al^iut a year ago. Bi/ lior. Dr. M,h„d: .■?()991. You say you are a journalist? -Yes : I am with the l{egina l,radcr. .'{(1995. That is Mr. Davin's paper \ — Yes, I am a reporter on it. (}E0H(iK WlI.MAM HhOWN. 358 !; !■ 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 DUNCAN CAMKIION, of H(^giii.i, scwin*; iniuhiiie iijyfent, on bein;^ duly sworn, (lejM)8ed as follows : Iti/ ,hidtjf Mf.Domihl : .'{tittilC). How loni; have yon ivsidcd in |{oj,'ina ? - 14 years next ■lunc. iJCtDit". Wlicrt- did you reside liefoic that .' In Kljfin (.'ounty, near St. Tlionias, < Intai'io. .tCiDDS. Were you there when the Scott Act whm in force .' — It worked fairly well. .<()!»'.)•). The Act was subsenuently repealeay me com|iensation. .■t700'r. Dr. Mr hod: •57007. Have you observed how the permit system worked since you came to this country ? Considerably. .■t700S. How .' ■ I have seen pei'uiits used nioi-e than once; that is they use the siubbs for- protection. I have seen liquor brought in on them. •'i700y. Y«ai have travelU'd in tin? country a good deal. I suppo.se/ Yes. •'17010. Have yt»u ob.sei-ved how the license system is working ; whether it is an iiitprovement on the old system .' It is certaiidy not an improvement on the old system, fur' there is a great deal more drinking going on, and you hear parties saying, " I wish ihei-e was no liijuor to be got.' They say that after they get through with their spree. •1701 1. You hear that the country through /-—Yes. - -'J n ■ ; Y'ou think that .some men who di'ink would rathei' they say so at all events. not have li(|Uor ! - •17012. I MM'lf le( 1 1 y \ I in"y ."Ml > ■■^^ » «n «iii i:»^-nii.^. •"wOl.J. You believe that drinking has increased ui\der the present system.' In tile towns it has decidedly incre;>scd. I have travelled 100 miles east to west and SO mirth 1^' ' >nth. >i I II I ' ''It'll. ■'IT Ji 1. l>o you believe from your observation and from the rliaracter of the people, lal prohibitiiui, with the pernnt system, could be enfoived '. Sci f;ir as the cuuiitiy is iiiiicerned, there .vould be no trouble at all ; any trouble which might occur would be in the town.s. •"1701.'). From coming into contact with th»' people, which you necessarily do as an aLTcnt, have you any reason to believe that if a j)lebiscite had lieen taken there would iiave been a majority in faxour of prohibition .' If the tem]ieran(e peojile had organized ilieui.seKfs well there would ha\i' been a big majority in favour of ;i pleiiiscite. Still they might not organize them.selve.s, for the rea.son that the temperance people L(enerally fail ill that way. If they did so, the verdict might be reversed. •<70I(). Then you think the result would de|)end on their oigaiiization .' Yes, and '.II the amount of energy they used. •">"017. Did the li(pior tratHi' organize against prohibition I — ^'es, and will do so ■I- long as there an- dollars •ind cents in the traHic. ■i701S. Do yf>u believe the strength of the tratlic is in the proHt got from it I —Yes, icve that. I l> in ■iii I iilii' ! 359 if i' 111?' Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. ;170H'. W'liiit WHS vour ()l)s<>rvHti(>n of the lieciise law in Onturio; did it wi>ik well .' • — N<». T Imvo seen te broken <revent it under a prohiiii tory law f So far as 1 am concerned F do not believe there would be any smuggling. .■i702i^. Y'^ou think that if there was a prohibitory law enacted the |)eople would fall right into the way of ob.serving it .'■ -Y''es, so far as the country is concei-ned, but I know- there would be trouble in the towns. .57020. How do you account for the fact that the memljcrs returned to the North- west [..egislature wei'e in favoui' of adopting a license law? — T cannot account for it directly, but 1 know generally what are my feelings and 1 generally act according to them, and I find that othei- people generally do the same. If I elect a man under disguise, who says he will be in favour of prohibition and at the same time is a drinkei-. T find that he generally goes with his party. .■i70.'iO. Hut take, foi' instance, .Moose .law. There both candidates were licen.sc men atul the temperance men did not bring out a candidate. How do you account for the fact that so many canilidates were elected in favour of a license law? fan you ac count for it I — I can to a certain extent. We will take the case of an informer, which I have been. I went and infonued, and the mendiei-s of the church I go to looked ujMin me as an informer. .■{70'U. They looked upon you with contempt? — Yes. 'MO'-^'l. Because you informed against men who broke the law ? Yes. ■S70.'{.'i. Were those church members temperance men ! No, they were not. .■{70.'U. Y\iu believe that uu)st of the people in the Territories are fiiends of prohibi tion ? — Yes. outside the towns, but there is a tlifference in the towns. .■?70.'{.">. In the towns I suppose there is a large nundjer? — (.^uite a large number. .■<7U.S(i, That being the case those people surely would look upon you with contemi>i as being an informer — 1 refer to ])e<)ple favourable to ])i'ohibition. Were the people who l(Mik<>d upon you with contempt favourable to jjrohibition / - Yes. H70.S7. With a large section of the towns favourable to ]irohibition aiul the people in the rural districts favourable to it, how do you account for candiilates getting elected who favoured a licen.se law ] — I do not kno"'. .17038. Ts it not inexplicable ?— Yes. ■■<70.'?(). It certainly seems to be inexplicable, if the sentinu'nt of the people is as you say it is ? — 1 fully believe the sentiment is that way. It is a matter of dollars ami cents Dixc.w Camehox. 360 11 ! ill 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 with (I f^iMxl nmny nn'ii. I l>olii'V(' tlif |>eriiiit system wiis (I was ifoinij to jiut it pietty strongly) directly in oj){M»sitif,'islature ill j^raiitin^ permits? T have no doubt he did. •'57041. That l«'iii<,' the case, why did not the party fuxourahle to prohibit ion put t'lirwai-d candidates and elect them to the l^e^islature instead of electing; meinbers favour- ;d)le to a license law t So loiii; as the peojile have the traffic before them and it is leyal- i/ed iiy lnw for the jK'oplo are a law abidiii!;; people they will consider it ri;;ht to a certain extent to use li(|uor, and it is pretty hard to lu'eak down a law on those j.;rouiids. ( >f course the people say that this or that man drinks. I know parties up there who drink and ;;et the worse cf liipior. .■i704l'. You say that both were candidates for the Lej:islaturc and they ^nt the worse of lii|Uor and were both drinkin^^ iiicn .' They are both license men. .■{704."t. With the license candidates runnini;. could not a )>rohibitionist have been elected, ruiiniiiLt as a third candidate,' -No. .'{7014. Why .' IJecause they were not ors^'anized. .■{704-">. Then the election of license men was really because the temperance people ilid not or;iani/,eanroose .Jaw Tiiiirx, arose and said : I have heard the statement of the witness, and in reply I wish to say that his as- -eition in re<,'ard to both of the gentlemen who were candidates at the last election, is not correct. .■?70")l. WITNKSS I witlulraw that part of my statement. The Conimi.s8ion adjourncci, to meet at Caluary, No\cnd)er 7. Hi: 8di ;il! Liquor Traffic — Xorfli-west Territories. I'ALCAllY, Noveml)or7. IH!):.'. The Royal CnminisHion on tlu- Liqimr Tratlii- met here tonlay. Present : .Jii)(;k McDonald. Ukv. Dh. MiLeoo. Ji'iKiK M<'1)()NALI), ill opt>i\iiii; tho prooeediims, said : \ have to aimoiiiuo that the sitting; of the l{oyal (Commission on tiie Liquor TraHif is now open for Imsiness. Her Majesty's Uoyal eommissi-in, luulci' the ifreat seal of tlie |)oniinion, was remi at Winnijvi;, and so tlie reailinff may be dispense*! with here. 1 may rejieat tlte statement made at other phiees, that tho Commissioners on eMteriny upon tlie (liscliari;e of their dutits unanimously ajjreed that (h'unkenness is an evil, and therefoi'e we do not desire to j;et evidence on that point. The evidence the Commissioners desire is of a more practi- cal kind, viz., in connection with the license law and its workinfj, as compared witii prohibition in places where the latter system has l)een in i>|)eration, and other matti'r>. of a like nature. Followinjj the practice adopted by the Commissioners, we will luiw proceed to take tiie evidence of the flavor of tlie town. v..\ ALEXANJ>KH l..l'CAS, of Caltrary, tinaiuial and real estate ai;ent, on beinifduly sworn, depo.scd as follows : By JinJye MrDomild : '3~0')2. 1 undei-stand you ai-e Mayor of Calfiary? I am. .{700:5. Ts tluM a town or a city ? It is u town under an < )nlinanceof the North west Territories. .37054. How lai'j;e a municipal l)o4. Do you mean at Lambton ? — Yes. at that time. 3700"). You observeil that when you made ii iiikI a |ii'niiit >*_\>t»'in in t'oi'cc Iutc / -Yes. .'I'OtiS. Wliat WITH your inipit'ssions (if its woikinj; .' You couiii j;;fi ail llic li(|Uor you wanti'tl if you paid I'O cents a j;lass for it. .S70(>'.>. W'heie i-ould you yet it / -In saitMins in liie town. .'{707<*. Were there many of tliein ; I lieard it rejiorted that there w«'re i;t diH'erent >aliHins in Cai^'ai'v wlieii I came here in ISSti, allhou;;h I do not know it to lie so for a fact . ."17071. You .say the strong lic|uor was I'O cents a ^dass ? - Ye.s. .'<707l.'. What was the kind of li(|uor used, was it pure or adulterated ? I could not say alxiut that. I heard that it was iululterated, and also that it was tirsl-class. .■<7(>7-"!. Was the sale open f -Not as a rule; the diM»r was locked with a spring; \,K-k. .■<707l. How did you obtain admittance f You ivipped at the diMir and were ad- mitted into a r4M)ni where there was nothin;,' to sell. If you wei-e ac(piainte. How lon<( di70('7. Was litpior openly .sold ? Yes. ."(71)78. Was the jirice reduced from -'jO cents .' -Yes, it came down to •_'.") cents. .T707!(. While the liipior was the sanu-, some goiKl and some had .' -Yes. •'i70S(). How long did that state of things c»)ntinue? — Until the introduction of tlu^ license system. .'57081. How many places have you in Calgary that are licensetl ? The Inspector will he al)le to give you the e.xact number. ;5708'J. Taking Calgary as it was under the old system and as it is now, have you noticed any change in regard to the maintenanceof order in the town? — I do not think there is any change ; the people are just as law-abiding now as they were then. .'170H;{. What alniut disonh'i's in the streets and matters of tiiat kind .'—I do not think there is much dillercnce. There is a little more di-unkenness. i'?708|. Tt is more open, 1 suppose, the sellers do not keeji tliem hidden as they ilid .' No. •■t70S.j. Do you know anything in regard to matters outside the town / — Not jier- ^uiially : I do not travel much in the country. •'5708(i. It has been stated in other places that eau de Cologne, pain-killer and such liipiids were u.sed as beverages. Have you a'ly knowledge of that fact? T have heard it reported that such things were used jirevious to 188(1. ."17087. Taking Calgary from the time you iiave known it, could not and did not tlic people tak(> such liipiids in place of whisky, if they couUl not get it ,' They could irct all they wanted for "lO cents a glass at the rate of .'^■_'..")0 and .'?:") fier bottle. ^17088. .Judging from your observation, did the people engaged iti the tratiic m;ike iiiiiney .' — Yes. •'1708!). You l)elieve they did so?— -Yes. •■>70i)0. Was that their oidy means of li\ing? That was all the means of living tiny had, I thiidv. ."170itl. How do you find the license law work, as aciti/en. Does it appear to work ^;l1isfactorily or otheiwi.se ?- I think it works satisfactorily. .'1701Il'. Are there any suggestions you desire to offer to the Commission in regard til inipru\ements ii\ the license law ? The otdy suggestion I could otl"er woidd be this, that i)ars shouUl 1h^ public, that they should be j)laced in front rooms, with glass win- ilows, and the curtains should be kept up during the prohibited hours, so that any person walking on the streets, sui-h, for example, as the Inspector, could see whether any one "MS in the room or not. ■"170it;i. \''ou would have sale contined to a room fronting on a public street ?— Yes, Hiid open to the public view. 1701I4. In 188G wiis this town a station for the Mounted Police ? Yes. 3t53 !lil[ ii! i! i : m Liquor TmOic — North-west Territories. .'{"OIJ"). Sii|i|MiNr II |)ruliil)itiisal)*r. Dr. My the Mounted Police? -Yes. ■■i71t)4. Ilji\f you i-eason to helieve that the .Mounted Polict- did their duty, or wa.s it (lone only occasionally '. I Ix-lieve to a certidn extent they did their duty. < )f coui->e it depends entirely on what they considered their duty to he. •■?7I0.">. hid they do their (hity in closinj,' up illicit places and in prosecutintf .' 1 thii\k they did. .'{71l)ti. 1 think you said you thoui^ht t here was nioiv drinkinji; now than previously' - That is the ojiinion at which I arrive7 107. lias your police force Im-cu increa.sed of late years ? -No. ■'{710'^. What is the sti-en;;th of the force f -The Chief and two men. .■t710!l. ho you |)reside at the police coui-t ?— Durin;; this sunnnor I have done so. •'{7110. What are the otleiu'cs or char;^es j,'enerally hrouj^ht before the court.' Drunkenness. ."171 1 1. Are there many con\ii-tions for drunkenness?- -I .su[>pose there is an a\cra'.:i' of two or three per week. •"(7 1 1 ■_'. Ai'e the police instructeil to take up those drunken people who are disoi'derly .' - Only tho.se whr) are disorderly or itu'iipahle. ;17I l-'l. Then if a man is ijuiet and f{oing honu-, he is allowed to j,'o honu' ? — Yes. ■■17114. Are you able to say whether flrunkenne.ss luis been more prevalent of lati' years than before.'- No. I was a olHce, l)ut he has to be specially a]i]>ointed. Mr. Murdoek was acting Magistrate. .'171 b"^. The license system came into foi-ce on 1st May, and we have heard tli.it licen.ses were gi'anted here iK'foi'e that. Can you explain whether that statement i- correet ? — The ])eople were to sell temperance drinks. •'$71 19. How luany such places were allowed? — I could not give you thecorrcii Hgures. .'17120. ho you know whether the .sellers confined themselves to such li(|Uors, or diil they .sell intoxicants ( Were any j)rosecuted for selling intoxicants T -Some were, liui iu)t many. ;$71'21 Have you reason to Ixdieve that there is sale after houi's and on Sunday^ here now?- I have no personal knowledge piirtii-s l«>cii |iriiscrut('(l t Nu. I (liink tlifi-i- Imvi' liccii sunn! I'lust's, liiit tlii'v liavt' hot coiMc Ix't'ort' nit- mid iirr not <>t' paitifs in tin- town. I tliink tlitt liit-n^et-s arc living; up to tlic law in ('iil>;iiiv ; nt l)'a.>*t most of tlu'iii nrv, piftty sti'ictly. .'i7l-t. A.s to till- i|u<'Kti(in of proliiliilioii, ymi tliink tlic old system did not pro- liiliit f -No, not II pai'ticlf ; it was no ^mmI. ;{7ll.'"). Was that lM'cini.stMtf ihf iiidiscriininiitc issue of pi'i-iiiits.' No, I think tiiat liad very little to do with it. ■'i7l-t>. Were the peniiits i.sHued tpiite freely / — Yes, durin;; the last two \ciirs tliev Were issuinl ton ;;i'('at extent. •■{71-7. !>o you know whether }H'rniits were issued to men in the i I'lide, I mean in the illii-it selliii;,' of li<|Uor? I do not think so. •■i7l-'^. Mow did iheyp't their li(|Uor ? Uy .seeret .sliipment, liy siiiujL(i;liti},'iiiid so on. •'(7 1 1".'. We have Im'cii informed that a man won!! L>'et a permit for live or ten ^mIIohs .'.ml that lui would <{et in ."lO or tU fellows ; the liijuor would 1h- held on the stiili of (he permit, and .so lon;^; lis the i|uantity on hand did not exceed what was speeilled on the ■■tulihewas safe the still) standin;; lietween him and prosecution. |),i you know whether that was the ease in C'alj^ary or not? ^'es, I have lieeii informed thai thv! decision of the Court was that the man was protected l>y the stuK, if he had not a larircr (piantity than was specitied. •■i7l.'50. Could any one examine into how he i,'ol it! It rested with the prosecution to show that he t;ot it ille;,'ally. •"{"l-tl. Do you lielie\t' that there were men who did sell illicitly and who j;ot their lii|Uor (of course they siiiu^';,'led more ni' less of it ) in liy jiermit, and I hey used the pro- tet'iion of the permit for an indetinite leiii;th of time.' I lielieve a i;real many of thost! who .Sold through saliMins kept a i|uantity for selliiif; liehiiid the liar in such a jHisition that it might lie noticed and seized, hut I do not lielieve oiieteiitJi or one-t wciity -fifth pai't of the li(|Uoi' came in on permits. It was smuggled and kept hidden and sold when they had an opportunity. '■ul'A'2. Wa.s it protected liy the stuhs ? A'^es, to tlu^ ^^\tent of the stulis held. ;t7|.'i;>. I suppose they were careful never to have a(|uantity exce»Mling tliei|uantity ~|pe(itied on the permit f -They never had more than the quantity speeilled. ■'i7l.{4. Speaking of the (|Uestion of [irohihition in a large way, you ha\t> expressed an opinion aliout compensation. l>o you helieve a general prohihitory law. that is a law |iioliil)itiiig the manufacture, importation and .sale of intoxicating liipiors for lieverage puriMises, could he fairly well enforced? — .Judging from my experience in the North-west 'rerritories, I do not liolieve so. The attempt was maile to prohiliit the manufacture and sale and there were 1,000 police in these Territories and |iatrolliiig the country, and vet we know that carload after carload of lii|uor came into the country. •■{7l-'5r). Do you lielie\e the police force wtM'e as vigilant as th(\v might have lieen ? I helieve the profits made out of the liusiness were such that the dealers could att'ord til i,'et liipior in. •■!71.'{<). Do you think that if there was a prohihitory lasv for the whole country, t.iirly well enforced, it would he productive of henetit / -If you could pass a prohii)itory law that could prohiliit, I lit.li-ve it would lie a lienetit to the i;ountry. •■i7l."{7. Have you ohserved whether the drink trade, as cai'ried on in the Territories, li.is had an injurious ett'ect on the liusiness of the Territories and upon social conditions and home life'/ — I do not think to any greater extent than in any other part of the I'ountry. By Judy AL Donald : •'>71."{8. Do you know that latterly under the permit system the police made it a l"'iMl to cancel the stuli which they found at the time of delivery / — Yes. .■!7l;39. So this cancellation ilid awav with the system of which you have spoken? - V.-. ;t7l40. I understiHxl you to say that drinking had increased under licen.sc? It is diinikenness that has increased — it is more apparent. As to the consumption, I do not know : I do not think it has increased. 365 ii ' I I M i H'" I, Hiv m i i'i LuHior Tninic — Xoitli-wt'st IVnitories. .'17141. 'I'lit'ii yoii (III lint think (lriiikin)( lias incri'iiNtMl f — No. •171 \'J. Kut ilriiiiki'iiiifss liiiN inci'fiiHfil : at nil i>vfiit.s, it is nuin' u|i|ini'<-ht f Vi's. •t71l'(. Yiiii liavc s|iuki-ii iif till- iiiiMi wliii iisi'd the siuIm ot' |MTiiiitH until th*- piilic)' iul))|)li-(l the HVHti'in of ciiiu-i'liiitiiin. T\w M'll«*rH, yuii hnlifvt-, hiul n lwli<»'izufes wen- niadr • if pai'kii^cs <'iin('<>iiit>(). 1 will read ymi a (piotation from a iKiok recently written up.i tlic Nurtli \Mv2. That is ill rej^ard to the particular disirict to which the writer is referriiijj.'-- Y(>s. T ha|)pened to hriii;,' that ffentlemaii from the Oaljjary country to the >. nth in my own ri;;. llis experiences deal more with the country north than with the C'ali;;ii\ district. .■S71.")-"5. I was not aware that you had any knowledge of him. He further says : " III the iiHmlli of .Imic, IHS!(, I left Calfiaiy tor a dii -e of 'JK) miles to Kdiiioiitoii. It is lln .siartiiiH point for the f.'i'eat iioitlierri eoiiiiliy eoiiliolled liy the llinlson |>ay Coinpaiiy. and with lln e\eeptioii of the .scattered trading posts and an od'asional Protestant and Koiiian ( 'utholii' iiii.ssion. the eoiuitiy i.i entirely given up to what it wa.s evidently intended for. a hunting gioniid for tin Indians." I suppose in those days the country was .scarcely sett led ?- -Ye.s ; it has lieen settled not very Ion;,'. .H71i'»4. His great object was to shoot and kill the moose ox ? — Yes. ;l71;').'i. Mile.s north of Great Salt Lake? — -Y'es. .'I71.')<'). I wish to ask you as a citizen, knowing the cla.ss of peojile who emigrate from the old country and settle here, whether you can form an opinion on this point taking the country as it is and knowing the laws as e.xisting, would you he ajit to <,'it a larger emigration from the mother country of ti good kind into this section of country with a jiroliibit«iry hiw in force or with a license law ? — I have no kiiowletlgc or uii\ means of knowing, except from the people who do come here. .■{71.">7. Are they jieople with jirohihition sentiments ? — No. 1 should say 7."» p' r cent of them were jieople who had always lieen able to get their beer or whisky wlnn tliey wanted. .'{71.")H. Are they people who partake in moderation of such liquors ? — Y'^es. .'{71.")!). They ate not iiitemjK;iate people 1 — No. Ale.vandkh Luc.\s. 366 57 Victoria. iSessional Papera (No. 21.) 4. i894 |)(i yoii ("iili;ai> It isilM' will) 111' fill- ilii ItMl SCttllM I ciiiifinit'' Lis iMiinl to ii>'^ i \i CtlUllllV ii'i" or iiii\ :i7liiU. Do yon think lluit tlio.si- )) you, lis a |iulilic man, woiilil likr to oni^otira^** ami liriii;,' to tho ' oinitry in ini'i'i'a.sin;{ nuinlMTs ; Yt-n. Wi-liavi' iluiiii^ i.n- last iiiontli lliroii^'li our iillirr l(ii.'lit in I'lO |ifo|ilf tVoin W'ashinglcdi r«'riiloiy iinil Idalio in th«' l'hit«Hi MtatoH, ;i iifwil many of wlioni wt-rc (.'anadians. ■'171*1-. l)oi^>« tli)> Kami' .statiMiii-nt 'i|i|ily to tlii>m as appliiMl to tin* immi^rantN from tin- old country ' [ fancy so. The old I'ountiy ]ii'o|(|t' sci'in to I m* fond of ihcif iwcr wliilc the American-, drink moi'c whisky. Hi/ lirr. I),: M.htnl : '■\'\i}'.\. How lon^ wiiH Mr. I'ikc in the country ? -Fidin his conversation. I should iliink alxiut two or three years in the northern country. ;i7ltU. I think he says liiat nine out often |)eo|ile drink. Is that your olMerviitiuii f — I shiiuld say nine out of ten peojile in the noi'thern country drink. .■t71t>-"). Is that tiMU' of tlie disti'ict of('iil;fary and the siirroundin;; country ,' I iliiiik not. .'<7l that a correct statementr It was plentiful, from the fact that Ihei-e wei'e lai'j;e profits III lie made out of it. .'i71ti7. I'lentifulness then, I suppose, \va.s not caused liy the Prohiliilion Act ! ll «a-. caused liy the profits. /ly Jndi/i jIr/)onit/(l : .'("ItiH. The Words used ai'c : "Causes whisky to he dear and had. yot plentiful rtilhal.' -Yes. Jii/ H>i: Dr. J/rLeod: • l7K)9. Do you think there was lc..,s whisky I irro- liiliitiiiii. It prohiliited peopli' who did not hold permits from ;;(;ttiii); liijuor. ■(7171. lUit was it not true that every one could ;tet p(»rmits? -No. I have noticed ilic syslcm a ;,'ood deal, and it was only after the decision of the courts that people kept ilic lii|Uor protected liy stiilis. It all amounted to this : that a man who ho,d in his piissession a stul) was jirotected and could not lie prosecuted if the amount of li<|unr wii- the same as specihetl on the permits or stubs, and one man could hold a permit ■tiid lii|Uor for aiuither person. •17 17-. You mean that one man would have the liquor and another the permit?- - I lie man mu.st have the permit. ■ i7l7."i. Then the permit would i;o from one nian to another 1 — Yes. m II liv 7.') per sky when 367 ill <;!'i . ; i t 1 ■ \' \ ■ , 1 t ^ ^ \' ' '•i\ Liquoi- Traffic — North-west Territories. THOMAS DOWI.INC, of Calj,'arv, CoUei'tor ..f Iiilaiid IJ.'vcmi. , mi h.'iii;,' duly sworn, (U'piisi'd ii.s t'tillows : Jii/ Judtji' MvJjoiKtl'l : .S7174. 1 )id you conie here from oik; of ilic otlit r itrovinci^s / ICiiiiif licrt'. from New HruiiswH'k. •'(717"). l-'rom wlial County ?—Fiom York. •"<717t'>. From tlu! rity of Fredcrictou '.' Yes. •■i7l77. 'I'lif C'Oinmissioii liavo lidd sittiiif^s at l''i'c(lt';'ictoii and have taken evidont-c in rt'7lS(i. N\'(>re thei'e any illicit stills? Yes. I n one or two instances they destroyed stills. .■{71IS7. We have lieen told that one of the duties or rights of the police which w^e- dista. teful to them, was the r'ight of search / Yes. .'!71M8. They would do tiiat work when they were ordered, but they did not ciret.i exercise the right fi'eipu'Utly .' That is true. .■i71'^'.). To what e.vtent did the right of seai-ch go? If the oilict»r received infoniia tioii that a num had liijuor in his pos.session not covereil hy a permit, he could go and search the ))renuses throughout, and if he found the liipioi- he could |)rose('ute the paitv who had it. If it was in the building he destroyed it. ;{7l!t(). [f It was within the reside ice he destroyed it and then prosecuted tiir party ? Yes. •■i71!n. To what extent did the right of [)ersnnal search go, if men had li(|Uor on their persons '? I would search their jiersons. '■MVyi. Would you take it from them ? I have done so in some ca.ses. .■5719'i. Was the man ju-osecuted and the litpior destroyed .' The ollicei' who madr thi> seari'h generally actttl as Magistrate. I do not know of one cast- where the part\ was not prosecuted. .■{7I'.I4. Would the liipioi' be destroyed befoi-e the prosecution took j)lace .' It \\a- destroyed in the presence of the man, afttM" he was sentenced. .'?719-"i. Tile liipior was retained until the case was decided .' Yes. .'i7 I'.Ml. If he had a permit and it^ covered the amount of li(pior in his possession, h'' was accpiitted ? -Not always. 'J'he rule I adopted, and I think other othcers acted m same way, was that if a man presenti^d a ;tub to a^-.y otHcer, he had to produce tli>- original package in which the li<|Uor came, and tht> stub would not jirotect him. I'''h instance, a man purchasing from the Hudson l>ay Company a ipiantity of liipior iind' i permit, the liipior would l)e addressed to him, and the otlieer would know when the li(|iiiii was to arrive at sa\ C'algary (I am not speaking of Calgary). If the licpior was foiui'l to be in another vessel, the man was pro.secuted. .'i7P.)7. The permit would not pi-otect him ? — Certainly not. .'{71i>S. So, not only did the lii|uor have to be within the specified (pumtity but a<'in ally in the original jiackages? — Yes, in the original packages. Thomam 1)owi,i\(;. 866 57 Victoria, Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'i7l!l!l. So till' .'IS yniir iudi^mt'lit jiiics, tin- iiii'iiilicis nt' I lie t'lin-c wcic lioiicst in tln^ii' wiirk .' Yi's. I li,i\i' iifM'i- known ;i ciisc wlicrt^ the police t'iiilt'd to (li,si-liiir;;c ilicir duties. • \7'20O. How loiij; liiive yon lield \our iireseni [losiijon in I Ills lown .' I was tians- ti'ircd lieie in .Miiy IjisI. M20]. I >oes niucli li<|Uor i-onie in in liond .' When I canie to Cid^ary, (lie dealers, ,.ot antici|(!itin> /I'rr. Dr. Mrl.rnd: ''~i'3)'k You ha\'e spoken of h'ort .Macleoil : was co i ideraiile .imiiiitlim,' canied on there .' A i,'ood deal. •')720(). hill vou find l'"oi't .Macleod ahout the li..nlest place in which to enforce a prohihitory \i\\y '. ('al;,'ary, in l\ ioii^ lo the construction of the Canadian l*aliari I'acilic Railway, who wairled to ;j;et liipior- on I lie wor'ks iir liritish (-olu'iii)ia an.' to rrrake rrroney oirt of it. M'lX'l. To jiiilher irp the wa;;es of the irreri, I sirppose ? I think so. •■t7l.'l;i. l''l'orrr your' oliscr-v at ion and laisje e\peiience, if instead of at liinpr ini; to enforce ])rdhil)it ion during 'I'''' Jieriod, there had lieen sale of intoxicating' liipmrs .doiiij; the line, wiiuld tirer'e ha\e iieeri ;i ditVeienl and les.> desii'alile state of things aiirony' t Ire rrreir ! '1 hey not liipior' any «ay. ;i7"_'l I. .\t'e we to understand that, not w itlisiarrdinu I !ie atti'in)it made to pr'oliiliit ilie impor'tation and sale of intoxicatinj; liiprors, liiprois were sold in a> lai'ye iprarilities Old as freely as if n i attempt had lieen rrrade .' I cannot say that. I arrr i:ivirrir vou lire facts howexei'. 1 was here in ( iliiar'v and had the police for'ce urriler rrr\ comm.md. •">7-l"i. How main rrnii .' Sixl',- irierr, and there weiealso some police in the iiioun lairrs, arrd 1 tried e\er'yt hin^' in iii\ |iowei- to c.-iny out iliel.iw. In fact. | wasi-imsj iler'ed ver'y sescr'e, althouuli it w as my duly to caiiy out I he la w ; luil \\ it h all mv force 1 I'uiild not keep lii|Uoiout of the i-oiiiitry. ."i7'_'ll'i. I'oilld not yon keep it out in any dej^ice ' I destr'oyed a ;,'ood (leal of iii|iioi' and iiiieil irraiiy men, hut oilier men woulil sprini; up in their' places, :i72l 7, If vou had rrot madeari at tempi *o enforce prdhiliition and had not succeeded iis far' as you did succeed, do you tlliirk ther'e Wduld still ha\e lieen moi < ii(pioi'sold and iiKii'e evil etVects .' 1 n'ather think that would irave Keen the ease. •'i7l.'lS. Yoir have lived here this year, yoll say, aird the lieetrse law has lieen in operation liere since 1st May. Have you oli.served whether' there Iras lieen more or less ih'irnkeiriress than previouslv f lir ni\ opinion thiMe is le -is diirikirnr now. :}69 ■Jl 24** 1 1 1 !!'■ a < i . I i; Li(iiior Trattic — North-west Territories. 'M-2\'.). Tlian tlieic wiis liefoie ?— Yes. '.\7'2'20. How do you iiccount for tliat ? — I cannot really account for it. I am speak- inj; from my own observation. Since I came here in May I have .seen very few people drinking or (h-unk in Califary. '.\7'2'2l. It is true that in Calgary, i>rior to the introduction of the license system in May last, there had heen practically a license law in force here for two or three years? T have no knowledge of it ; T was not here. ."{7---. I vas comj)aring Calgary as it is with its condition under the law in 188.'?- 84 ? -During the time of the construction of tiie lailway, we had quite a hirge popula- tion here. .'{7:.'-3. What were the class of people compared with the class now ,' — The class of men Iumh- now is a sober one. 'M'22i. They were largely navvies then '/ — Yes, the whole country has changed, you can form an idea, for in 1882 this place was a prairie, and now it is a city. lii/ Judge McDonald : .■{"225. [ suppo.se you know the class of people that are here now ; ai-e they generallv law-ahidiiig people? -Yes. •"{7220. Are they moilerate drinkers ? — I have not seen any of the inhabitants drink much. I'!::: liii- THC)MAS EXGLlSFr, of Calgary, Chief of Police, (jn being duly sworn, deposed as folhiws : Hi/ Jiidiji' Mr Diina/'l : ."^7227. Do you hold any other position than Chief of Police ? -No. .■?722S. Mow long have you lived here?- 22 months. .■}722!l. Where did you reside before that? -In Winnipeg. .'{72.'U). When; before thiit? In London, Ontario. .■572.'H. How long have you been Chief of Police? — 22 months. .■i72.'i2. Were you on the Winnipeg force .' -Yes. .'>72S.'>. How uiany men have you? — Two beside niyse f. .■{72IU. Have you anything to ilo with the enforceme.it of the license law ?- Xo. .'{72."{."). You have no duties to discliarge under it? -No. .'i72.'5(). When you came hert; the ju-rniit syslem was in force, I suppose f -Yes. •■i72;}7. And since ]\Iay a license .system ? Yes. ;i72ll,S. How ha\<' you found them work, the present law with the other ; which has proved to be more satisfactory .' — The pi'i'.sent system. ;i72.'?'.). What was the state of things when you came here ; was li(juor being solil in the communitv ? ^'es. ;5721(). Was it .sold openly? -Yes. ."57211. In many places? -Yes. ."^72 12. Had you any means of ascertaining wha* kinds of licjuor were sold? Any kintl you asked for, 1 suppose. .'$724.'!. Do you know whether it was good or bad? No. .'57214. Weiv there more places then than now ( -Yes. ."5724."). You .say thei'e were more than you have now? — Yes. .■{724(!. Taking the two .systems, are you able to say whether there is more li(|Uiii consumed undei- the present system than under the other/ T think there has been nmri' liquor consumed since 1st May. .17247. Do you think that more peojile drink ? — Yes. . .'17248. I am not speaking of drunkenness, but the consumption of liijuor ? I think there has been more liquor consumed since 1st May. Thomas Dowlinh. 370 hicli li:i- H sold Anv Ire li*! nil II I'l'ii 111" 111 [[uor 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .S7249. How do yiiu account for thut, witluiloss iuiiiil)ei' of |iliices sellini; '.- Liquor is clieaper. .■{T'ioU. You tliiiik that jioople who drink coiisuiiif iiioie ? Yt's. .■{72")1. Wliat is your opinion in roj^ard to (h-unkenness ! Tlit'ic has heen n.orc since 1st May than during; tive or six months In-fore. Tlu're.are a lot of railway men employed workin;,' on the Calvary and Edmonton Railway, an'.\. Did they look after drunkenness or anything of that kind,' Oidy drunk- enness among the Indians, ] think. .'$7254. Have y(tu any suggestions you could make in ivgai'd to the license system, which would he i)eneticial to tiie comnmnity / \'es. It is veiy ditlicult to enforce the law at present. The hars are j)laced in tiie rear of huilding and it is hard for the Ins- pector to ascertain what is going on. Jf licensees wei-e comjx'lled to place the bar in the front of a huilding and if the parties were also compelletl to I'emove screens, those changes \Miuld do more than anything else to assist in the law heing cari-ied riut. .'i72-")"). You concui' in the suyLfestion m.-ide hv the ]Mavo -Ye 'M'2M. Are there any other suggestions you can offer .' F do not think so. Bi/ lim: Dr. Mchod : .S7--")7. I think you said it was not your duty to enforce the license law. Wh.ose is it ? TheLicen.se Inspector. ;$7-o'^. Have you rea.son to believe that there are illicit jilaces selling now ? ! 7l.M!l. How long an e.\']ierience did you have of tiie old system before tiie licensi' law came into force? One and a half years. :{7-Gl'. Did you regard tliat as a system of proiiil)ition or iiermi.ssion .' <)fpi'rmis- ^i. riic jit'dpli- went on scllini,' .' Yes. 'M'2~*\. And tlic jHiliiT wtTf riglit in Calgary at tin- time / -Yes. A'y ./ndi/i' MfDtiiiiiltJ : 'M'2~'. ^'t)U lit'iinl Mr. Dnwliiig's statement, 1 supiiose .' Yes. •"57-7^. I le sjMike of liis t'ofee liavintj niatle stroll".; ert'urts to suppress tlie sale? — T have iieanl tiiat tliey iliil so, hut it was ln'fore my time liere. •■>7-7!l. Tlien you have reason to su|)pi)se that his statement was aeeurate .' Yes. • mI-'SO. You have no reason to tiiiiik to the contrary .' No. ■■ >:■ -■ i • .lAMlvS WALK HI!, of Calwirv, lumh U ilul\ jer luereliant. on l)eini; duly sworn, depostil as follows ; if "II: 'if i w mL'SI. 1 )o you hold any otUeial position '. I am Chairman of the F^ieeiise Comii sioners. ;57l.'Sl'. How loiij,' liave you resided here.' Since 188U, twelve years. .■^728.'?. |)id you come liere from one of the other provinces? I came here fr ll.uiiilton. Went worth County. .■{7l'S|. T1 lere was a license law m force there. 1 lielieve? — 1 came to tl lis count i\ as a mounted jioliceiuau, in lS7l.'. .■>7"_'S"), Mow loiiij; were you in the force .'- -About two veai .■<7"_'f<7l.".'l. We have been told that in .some places, under the old system, when a in. 1 call his friends together, and they would keP]i < it. I eriiiit. ne wou[( got li(|Uor HI hv pe drinking until ihey had drank all tile liipuir ' I haxeseen cases of that kind north. M-lw:-. Do v. Col( I I III know anything of the use of siicli articles as pai i-kill. iiKl can ii ia\ »■ not seen i he was a prohibitionist. inch of that, but 1 saw one m.in taking pain-killer : in t.ii i .■57'J'.lti. Was the .sale of those compounds stopped eventually .' ^' were sold forthat puriiose. and the Indians got hold of them. .V mi.xtureof paiii-1' •laiiiaica ginger was compounded and sold. It was another name for whisky. es, lie<'ause \\\v\ -klllcr.-iiH •'17l".'7. Then it was wliiskv made into decoi'tions so as to be able to sell it accon to law .'!"•_".•;*'. It was brought in legtdly in bottles the same as pain-killer .' Yes. ll'.l. What class of ])eople would obtain it .' — (ieiierally traders, who would id thev sell other i^oods :es. tea, sugar and 'nuceries, wliu htl ley uiiiili •II to the Indians also at the treaty payments. TiioM.^s Hnoi.isii 372 n 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ilT-'iOl'. Tluit inctliotl iiiul tile permit system eoiistituted tli" t \vn iiietliuils 1(\ wliieli liijuor was brouiilit in .' — Yes. .■{7.'iO-'>. I>iil villi ever liave neeasiuii to seareli liuuses in your' distiiet .' I think unee cii' twiee |)nilial>iy. ;}7.'>04. hid yiMi ever lia\(' nceasion to search phiees and liotise.-- .' I lia\r searelied laits. .'iT.'U)."). Was tlieiv niuoli settlement in the eountry in tho>e days ; N'o. ■"i7-'lOt). Were the Indians tlie only set tiers tliere then .' Nearly. :i7.'507. Then we understand you left the t'oi'ee in KSS() .' ^'es. .■i7.'!0!S. Have yoi; had any exjierienee in the Maeleod disti-ict .' No. •'>7.'?00. Then you sottleil down in C'ali;ary .' "^'es. .■<7.nO. I)id the force endeavour to carry out the law accordini,' to your ol)ser\alion here .' - I'ntil the last three or four years. •"i7'Ul. AN'e have e\idence from the Mayor that there was a I'ei'tain amount of salt> i;oini; on when you came to the town .' ^'es. • >7.ilL'. Since 1st May this |>art of the country has lieen inidei- a license law. I lie- licve .' Yes. • >7."51-'i. Takiui; the state of thini^s liefore and after the license law in Calvary, which do yni think is |neferal)le .' I should say that liciMise was ]iicferalile to the last year or luo of the prohihitory system. ■')7.'ill. You are Chairman of the IJoard of Licenst> Connuissioners .' N'es. •"•7-')l."). Api)ointed by %Nhat authoi-jty .' ()f the North-west Council. ■')7"il(). How lariie a district lia\(' you under your charge ,' Weha\c\\liat is called the Cid,i;ary district. •■>7-')17. \\'hat does it take in .' 'I'he country aor'th of here for a distance of fid miles III llii:h Hiver, and west as far as Uaidl', and east as far as (ileichen, that is the Calvary ilcctoral district. ;)7-'US. How many licensed phu-es are tlicK in the district.' T cotdd not tell you nil' hand, hut 1 e.xpect the Inspector will he able to tell you. •■!7.'>l!l. Can you tell liow many thei'c are in the town of Calvary ; I third< live or -ix hotels, two restaurants and three wholesale houses. ■>7.'!l.'0. What arc your duties as CMiairman of the Hoard '. Are your dut ies conl'nied io till' town .' Yes. •'?7'!'_M. Have you considered the ipiestion of ijiantini; compensation to iirewcrs and lii^lilleis in ca.se of the passage of a u'eneral ]irohil)ilipry l;nv, which would he the mean> otclosim; uji their business.' -T have not. By h'er. Dr. McLeod: •"'7.'>l''J. What are the conditions under which licenses are L;ranted for the sale ot li'liior f There are three difVerenI systems. There is the system of hotel licenses for tow ns, .Hid another system for I'etail licensed places foi' country districts, there is a license for restaurants and a wholesale license. So there are really four dift'erent kinds, "i7.'$l'.'i. Take the hotel licenses in Calvary ; at what hours nmst they close at niuht ? 1 could not tell you that. ■ )7.>"J4. Tlu>y ha^•e to make application for licensi's f Ye^. The Chief lie-j tor is ill Ivcyiiia. and the [lapers are sent to him. Those |papers are sidniiitted to the Coinmis- ■>iiiliers, who pass upon them and decide whether the applicant shoidd be planted or le- t'used a license. • >7;^_'r). Ffas the applicant to obtain a certain number of siL;iial ures .' ^'l-•. In out "t llie nearest 20 householders. • !7.'L'(i. Take Calitary, were any ajiplications for licenses refused ' No. •i7.'i"J7. |)iil you find that all who a]i|)lied had complied with the conditions I "^'es. •■57."{'JS. What is the cost of a license '. .^I'Dd for each license. • i7.'iL".). I )() you know whether the wholesale dealers in Calvary have also retail iiielises f No, they have not. .'i7.'i;U*. You think the prohibition system was fairly cirried out until within the last t W(i or tiiree yeiirs. Why was it then less etliciently carried out .' The Mounted I'nlice did not seem to lia\e the same enei'uy in carryinL,' out the lav\ as previously. 373 l!M!i ! Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. m i . ;{7.i.'il. Wci'c permits issued liore iiKlisi't'iiniiiutcly .' 1 tiiiiik tliu t'uur |n'i' oMit liucr system liacl a ;;<(()<1 de.-il to (In with iimiv liipior ' eiiij; usctl. Tlie law was almost a dead letter after that system was iiitrodiu-ed. 'M'^''\'2. 1)1(1 you observe that iiiidei' the t'.)ur ]iei' ceiil l)eei- ])laii ahno'-t every kind of lifjiioi- was introduced .' Yes. ;i7;{3;}. Do you think a license system would. he j)referal)le to th(^ condition of things prevailinj; prior to those two oi- three years, *ay to the condition of tliin;;s pre- vailin;; from \H7\) to ISSi! '. 'Fhere was not as nuich liipior used then as now. 'M'M\. l)oyou think there is mure drinkin;jin the C'al;;ary district than |ire\iously ? — I think there is more amnni; ;i cei'tain class. There are more jieople \\ ho are able to ailbrd li(juor now, and theiH! are a great many who buy it whole.saie. :57.'5.'5r). As between license and prohibition, which system do you consider prefer- able I — ^ly own conviction is that if jn'ohibition could be stuictly carried out, it would l»e a j;ood thing. .'iT-'l.'il). Fi'om youi' experience with the Mounted Police, do you think a vigilant and faithful force would efl'ectually carry out prohibition? — It was diH'ei-ent when 1 wa.s with the force, because there were not so many j)(^o[)le hei-e then. It would be very e.\- pensive to stop illicit sale at the present time. .'(7l5-'i7. Speaking of a prohibitoi'y law foi' the whole country, a law to jirohibit the manufactiu'c, im{)ortation and sale of intoxicating li(iuors for be\'ei'age ]>ur])osos, do you think it would lie possible to enfoi-ce such a law ,' — We have a long boundary line and sea coast, and it would be impossible. .■57.'i.'?S. There was a good deal of smuggling, we understand ? — i nere was a good deal of smug^lin;; across tht,' frontier. FKANK DICK, of Calgary, license inspector, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows; JJi/ Jn(fi/i' Mi'Doiiii/i/ : 'M'-Wd. Do you carry on any business now .' I was formei'ly in the lumber business. .")7.'U0. Flow long ha\(' you resided here? -About thret> years. •'{7.'541. Did you come fi-om one of the other j)rovinces ,' I'rcjm th(> County of Vic toria. Ontario. 1 had been nearly 10 or 11 years in Manitoba before that. 'M'M-. When you came here the license system was in force ?- \'es. .■i7.'i4."i. Were you the lirst Inspectoi' ajipointed for this district after the new law came into force? Yes. •57.'UI. Taking the old system iis yi>u know it and the new system, which is pi'efev able? -The new system. .'?7-54."). Have you endeavoured iionestly and faithfully to carry out the pi'o\ isions of the lieenst? law / — Y'^es. •')7.'iK). From your experience, can you suggest any iniju'oxcments in tlie law or amendments that would be impi'o\ements .' Yes. Foi' instance: the suggestion by .Mayor Lucas to compel bar-rooms to be on a front sti'eet and open to view. It migiit have the eH'ect, iiowe\er. of causing jiarties to sell in out-ot-the-way places. •'i7.'i47. lUit you think that would be a good plan? — Yes. .'i7.'54S. When you I'ame hei'e was the sale of liipior open ?- No. I came here in the s).ring of 18r^4." •'{7.'Uil. Was liquor then sold .'- "^'es. ;)7."}oU. In many places.' -1 think there were more places in 18(S4 than there are to-day. .■i7."?51. ^Vhat kind of lii|uor was sold ?--I cannot toll. I should call it bad, even the best of it. ■'!7.'?.")'2. What were the prices diarged ?---")0 cents a di'ink. .■i7.'5").'5. What is the jirice now ? Two drink.s for a (piartei'. .Iamks Walki; 374 I H Wr^ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iiivisions ;t7.'i-")l. At any tiiiio lit-fort- tlic license system eanie into t'uive, did the sale Itecunie open? Yes, about two years aj^o. ^^''^'i'^. Has tlio nuinher i>i licensed places increased since tlie license system came into force? I think there has heen an inci'ease in number. 'M'^^At. Are you favourable to pi'oiijiiiiion .' -Yes. :\~'.\')~. On piMncii)le / -\'es. It"."^"!''^. Koyou think a pi'ohii)itory law could be enforced ? I think so, if proper methods were adojiled. .S7.'{')9. (,'an you su;;j;est any methods. Do you think the steps taken by the Mounted Police were ifiKKl.' — \o. The fact is that aniaii who only receives 81") a month and his clothin;j; is not suitable for the business, when he can make i^'M) or i^lO a month by taking tips. •">73GO. l)o yt)u charge that this has Ijeen done by niembei's of (he Northwest Mounted Polici- I — >rembers of the force liave told that to me. .'iT.'ilil. From whom would they take tips.' — Fi'om tht^ li(|Uoi' men. •?7H(iL'. It is oidy fair to the i)olice to state that the wei;;lit of testimony everywhere has been that membci's of the force have faithfully performe(l theii' duties and endeavoured to carry out the law ? — Recently, at all events, I recollect one jwlicemen tellinff me fif it. .'17;5(i;5. About takin;,' tips .' Y'"es. ;{7;?t)4. You wt)uld retjuire otticeis who would not be subject to such teniptations ? - Well paid otlicers. ;i7.'5ti-"). In case of the enactment of a general pi'ohibitorv law, would you favour the payment of compensation to brewers ami distillers for loss of plant and machinery? Yes. .'?7.'5Gt). Suppose' you had to choose between a j>rohibitory law, well enforced, and a license law, which would you consider preferal)le .' — A lii'ense law. By Rnlv is sold ? -No. ;>7."}7-. Have you reason to believe that then' is illicit sale in Calvary or in your district ? — I do not think there is any in t'algar}', but I have heai-d of cases outside in ilie country. ;i7.'$7.3. Are you supposed to visit all the plac;'s in your district j)a;'ticidarly '! — I only go wlien T lieai' anything or get an information in regard to dilVerent matters. •i7.'{74. It is a large field, and f suppose you could not go over it very often ? —It is a large tield. 3737'). Is it the duty of the police to keep you informed as to any infi'actions of the law ? — I cannot say that it is their duty to do .so. .'i737t). If a policeman should see an infraction of the law. would it not be his duty to inform you ?- Thi' police are authorized to enforce the law in the Ordinance. •i7."!77. Are you not the prosecutor? — I am suppo.sed to be so. •'i.j;}7S. You lay the charges, I suppose ? — Yes, not but that the police could lay the charges themselves. •■i7.'{71). There is nothing to prevent them doing .so ? — No. •17380. Are the police constables in addition to town police ?— Yes, all mounted I ml ice are constables. 375 •' I 1 rrr i|i mt Liquor Trattic — Xoi'tli-wesf Territories. .■{7.'{lSl. Where tliey are /--Yes, tliroujilimit the Nortli-wost Tim rilin'ics. '■\T,\f<2. Do you know jinythinj,' fiht)ut the condition of thin;,'s prior to the license system, when u iiuinher of |ico|)le were hcensed to tseli ii<|Uor for refreshment — I suppose tiijit was a cuuple of yeai-> ai,'o ! Yes. I was iii town at that time. .■i7.'{f<'?. I)i(i vou liold anv (itlicial position then .' N<>, I had no otheial knowledge of it. ■ ■ l'il)\VAUI> IK^hDl'iH, of C'alyary, on heing duly sworn, deposed as follows ; — Jii/ Jiid(/e McDonohl : :!7.">!^ 1. What is youi' husiness or oecupatioii ? -T am ictired from l)Usinoss. :')7;iS-"). Mow long iiave you resided here.' -.Vltout six yeai's. ;i7.i'*^l'>. Did you come iiei'e from one S8. Have you known this country under tiie [)ermit system or as it was called, the prohii)ition >y.stem '.- -^'es. .■$7''i''^'.*. And also the license system, since 1st May last .' Yes. .■17.'5'.I(J. Which lui\e you found preferahle .' -1 am decidedly in favour of a license .system. •■57."i!n. Have you emigrants coming here from Kngland ,' A'es, to a certain e.xtent. .■i7-'i'.'-. Do you tind the jieojile coming here a soi)er and law-ahiding class ? That is acc(jrdiiig to my ohsiM'vation. I do not remember ha\ing seen any of them ili'unk. .■i7;l'.l.">. .\i'e they people many of whom take intoxicating drink in moderation .' • — I am not in a pouniinii'^'i;liiiL; iriiin;.' on at that tiiiii'? I ciiiiiiiil spc-ik tVnm my nwn i'.\|i('riciK'f. lnit if I cdii liclirvi' «liiit nmis llic (•oiiiiiHiii talk lien-, tlii'ic was a Lrmxl deal of it. .'(7407. We lia\ t' had fvidi'iicc nf the l)i'iiii.'iMu; ill nt' li(|uipr foiu'calcd in liaricls nf siiifar and pai'kanfs of ditTiTcnt iiiiTi'liaiidiM'. |)(iyiiu know anytliini; of llial ,' I liaxc lii'ard of it licinii done, lint I know notliini; alunit it personally. ."17 lOS. ^'nll lia\t' not seen packaijcs (ipcnrd a'ld lii|noi- dftirtfd '. No. :i7 too. Ilaxi* you ever fimsidfi'i'd the i|uestioii of |iniiiil)itioii as a (Hicstinn uf liiinciplf .' — I iiavt' iit'Vcr gout' \cry di-cfily into it. .'17110. Aff you fa\uui'al>lc to proliihition as a iiriiiciplf '. No. .'17111. I >o you think it wron^ in priiiciplf .' ^'('s. 1 think it wioiin to force any man a^^ainst his own will. •''>7I1:.'. Supposing such a law w( re p.issed, do you think it could lie practically < iifoiced / -I doulit it. The induceineiits are too frreal for liolii the iiianufact lire and '-imii.'iflinu: of lii|uo|- and you will always liml people who will have liijuor for sale. ;i7ll.'>. Ill cas(> such a law were pa-iscd, would you think it riicht that lireweis ami ili>tille''s should recoise reiniiiieratioii for their los'^ of plant and iiiachiiiery .'— Certainly. //// A'"-. />'■. M<-I.''<»l : •">7ni. Why do you think license is |)referalile to pmhiliit ion ! — I'lom my own 'p|)>cr\ation I ha\'e seen less drunkenness since the license law came into force than there uas iiefiire. ;i7H."). l>o you think there has lieeii less drinkiiiL,' since.' I think there has lieeii liss drunkenn"ss. 'IMie only \mi\ I can accuunt for it is that a man can u'ct ai^ooddrink t'i lii|Uor for less than ."lO cents, which he had to pay liefore. ."i7ll(i. On that Jiccount there is less drunkenness '. I think there is less drunken IK'S.-,, 'riiere are, howe\cr, other men who have <(iveii e\idencc on tliat point who are lictler authorities, iiecausc they live in town, and I li\e one mile out of town and am ^I'lddiii in at ni<;ht. ">7117. ^'ou ha\e spoken of C'alijary as a law -aliidinii ]ilace. Was it a law aliidin.i^; place liefore 1st .May last .' Yes. i suppose, iiowcNcr, that then; were many infractions of the law in rejiard to the liipior traliic. •"'7H.'^. We have lieeii told that there vere more places selling then than there are ii'iw . You have said you would not think that was an indication of law oliscrx anco ! -No ; liiit since you ask me a (Hiestioii, I must try to rememlierin reuaid toout raj^es, disorderly iMiiiJuct and drunkenness. ;i7n'.l. .So ther<; was a u'ood (leal of tiiat under the old |ieriiiit system .' There was h'li ,1 i_'reat deal. < )f course there were cases, as there are in any community. • !7 I'-U. Do you attriiiute them in any (ic<,'ree to the drinkiiiy; that went on then.' I iiiuihiite them to the ipiality of the liijiinr they drank. • ">7t"_'l. leather than to the ipiantity .' -Yes. ■ i7rj"_'. l)id that old system strike you as prohiliiti\c at all '. Not ;it all, liccause :iii\ man hv sendini; money down to I{eM;ina could ijel liiptor. •"i7ll.'.'>. ."^o it really was not piohiliit ivc .' No. '■u\'l\. You have said yuu arc o|ipused to prohiliition on piini'i|)le. I )o you oliject to ilie principle of prohiliition as applied to the community .' I object to forcint;- pei)|ile ill c.ises of that sort, in rcj,'ard to matters on which they should e.xeicisc iheiiown judu iiii'iii. '>7ll.'."). JJo you think it is well in Cali;ary in issuini; permits to make it aconditioii 'ii.ii the licensees shut u|) their places at 10 or 1 I o'clock at iiij;lit ! T think they should I"- ■iljiiwed to keep open until the train arrived, which is at a \ery had hour just now I iiiay remark. If they closed at \'l o'clock there would lie no harm done, and they would II'. I tiiid fault with th.at. • i7l"_'n the a.m. to 12 p.m. was itisti-unu>ntal in keepinjj a lai'gn number of men di'inkinj.' durin.i,' the day, wouii you think those houi's injuiious ? I do not think so. If I wanted li(|uor I would j^et it. whatever the cost. 374'$0. Owinj,' to the persersity of human natui'e, T suppose.' Yes. M7l-n. When a man thinks a thin;; is pi'ohihited it makes him want to have it, anil lie is hound to endeavouf to;,'ot it ,' -No, liut that the man should he left a certain amount of disci-etion, when a man know.s how to use it and not abuse it. I am speakin;,' tor myself. I have lived here aljout three years as a citizen, and no one evei- saw me the worse for liijuor, except the day I took the two drinks. 'MA'.V2. So you are able to be a law to yourself in the matter ? — ^Yes. ;574;i.'{. Do you think every man is able to be a law to himself ?- -Y'e.s. .■^7434. Would you lock uji habitual drunkai'ds? — A man who cannot take liipiur in moderation without making; a beast of himself should be out of the world. .■}74.'{ri. ,So the trade shoidd ;,'o on until tiie end, from ;;eneration to ^jeneration ! - Y'es, peoples will have it, and they will get <|uii-ker t' the end if they take decocted stufl': it i.s, of course, only hastenini; tlie end. .■{74.'5<'). Do you think there are a large number of people of that kind, taking youi t)bservation here and elsewhere? — Not a great number. 374."<7. Of men who drink at all. some are like yourself, men who can drink a lot at €a time and keep themselves under cfnitrol. liut in regard to the men who drink more or less, have you ever observed whether any proportion at any time drink to excess —Yes, occasionallv. 374.'i8. Is it a large ])ercentage ? -I may see a man who is a moderate drinker take a little too much once or twice in a year, but as a general thing I think there are ten moderate drinkers to one exi-essive drinker. .'i7 b'ilt. Have you observ€>d whether there is a tendency on the part of those wlm drink moderately, to drink excessively as years go on ? — I do not think .so : I do not tiiink it has ever struck me in that light. 37440. You think, howevei-. prohibition of the trade entirely would be an inti'i ference with individual liberty? — Yes, T do. .■57441. There are people, so it is declared, who regard the trade as a constant temp tation to their boys and the weak peojile of the conunuinty. Is it not an interference with their personal rights to have a trade thrust upon them against their will? — I do nut (piite understiind youi- ([uestion. .'i744L'. I understand you to say that men who drink should not have that right interfered with. There are other jieople, however, who say the drink trade is a men.i. i- to all the young peoi)le of the community and should be abolished. Have they no riglit- tliat should be considered ? — I think it is only right that all people .selling should he ]irohil)ited from selling to minors, if that is what you mean. .'174 13. l)o you know whether the li<-ensees observe that feature of the law, oi' d^ they sell to whoever comes along.'- I have never seen a minor at a Vjar ; I do not know 1 ever saw one instance of it. 37444. Have you observed, as a man of leisure, that the drink trade, as establislicd and carried t so nuii-h n( tin- (•iiiiiinuiiity's inidu-y ,' --Yfs. Tht; iii|Uiir he sold did not all citiii)' in iiiidfi' |ii'i'iiiit. •■?7 US. Mid tilt' |)c()[)h' i,'ct aiiytliiiii; tor thrir nioiifv .' They not \"'iy poor \alu(\ ■'171 ('.•. Suppose a man is hctMiscd to sell, ilocs lie nut yo in to sell tor u pnilit f Ctitaiiily. .'i74'>0. \\'li('tht'r he iiiakcs .Sl'(),((0O in four years, or it' it lai people who huy lii|Uor when the trade is lireiistHi f,'et value for their money ? -h'rom all the knowled;;e I pos.soss liipior is not worth .")(> cent* a ulass : if it comes to that it is not worth ll!.', cents, as is charjjed now, Ijiit there is a j,'ood deal between \\ll and ."id cents. 'Ml^i'2. 'i'hen the dealer receives It.'ss pr.itit now than liedid hefore? Yes. Ill/ Jndye McDotKihl : ;$74");{. Takinj; the ca.se of a man making !!?-0,000 in "JU years under the license law : he makes it hocause the people under the le^;alized trade as carried on hy him huy that <|uaiitity of liquor from him ? — Yes. .■17t.'")4. The (|uestion is sometiines asked whethei- it would not he hetterif the people put their money into dry fjoods and so on. |)o you think some option should he allowed ilic jicople as to what tliey shall do with their own money, so long as they use it with iliscretion ,' — Yes, 1 tiiiiik the people ha\e a right to do what tliey wish with their tiwii money. ;1745."). Taking the (piestion, then, of public sentiment, you have expressed yourself ill favour of licen.sed hou.ses keeping open during certain hours? — Y'es. ■'174.'')<). Do you think that in this community public sentiment is almost unanim- ously ill fa\()ur of closing ;it particular hours ;in(l on Sunday? — I have never gone into the matter since I have been here. ;174.")7. Do you not find that the great wfMglit of public sentiment favours that view? Yes. .'i74">i^. Do you find that the same seiitir.ii'iit exists in regard to closing up .iltugcther ?— No. U74.")'J. J)o you not think that where you find public sentiment almost uniformly in favor of closing on Sunday and after specified hours, it is easier to enforce such a law than "here there is diversity of opinion / — Yes. • i74t')0. Do you know whether there were any compounders who did nothing else iiut coinpiaind litjUor .'-[ cannot speak from experience, but everybody who has been hi'ic for any length of time knows that there lia\e been men here who did nothing else. .'i74til. Do you know any such? — I am not going to run the risk of getting my.self into a libel suit, .so [ will not say. • ">74()i'. You know as a fact that such things did take phice ? — Y'es. ■■!74f).'l. J)i(l you refer to the fact that men would send down to IJegina and get a p'Tiiiit ] -They wi're rarely refused, except men who were found selling. • >74l)4. Ha\e you any knowledge of the systtnn pursued in Hegiiia in regard to .ranting permits? — I never was i'efus(Hl one ; I wrote and got all 1 wanted. .">74ti."). Were you well known? — 1 was not known when I first wrote. • 174<'i(i. Was your aj)plication submitted to other persons who did know you? — T -'■lit to (UiveriK^r Koyal. •'174i!7. We have been tokl in liegiiui that the custom was to have legislators i\iiiniiie tho.se applications, and on the strength of their recommendations permits were issued ? -I cannot speak as to that, because 1 simply wrote and asked for a permit iiidiciiting .so much linuor. Invariably a permit was sent. ■'174<)S. And inclosing a certain amount of money for tin? fee, I suppose?- — Y'es. • '74(19. Y'ou did not .send money as au inducement? — No. •17470. TJiere was no fee paid for ale, 1 suppose?—! could not say. 379 i' I ir i Hi III Li(|iiui' 'I'liitlic — Xoitli-wi'st 'r('iTitori.)s. .'17171. NN'lii'ii «ii> it I hat yiiii wcri- atiil tli<' town Iwid run ilrv. ■'t" 17-'. TluTf was no time f<» send to Hcj^iiui I sii|)|i(isf t I .■1717;*. Was tlif i'ail\\ay •iiiininj,' then ,' Yes. ■ 17171. It llMs Imm'Ii MlifLtf'stfd thai iiiii' iiMMiii t'ul' the ilirn ■asf ill tffantiii;; |pcriiiits was that llic fouiilry was IIimkIimI witii ■-miii.'^'li'd hniiur ,' I siip]iosi- it .'1717."'. Ami it was cuiisidi'ii'd lictlfi' to liritij; lii|iicir in tVoui our o\n u counti'V in tlu' I'cyuiar was. i lo you know anytiiin^ in i't'j,'ai'd to that .' F caniioi s|ical< |)frscmaliy. l)Ut I am satislii'd in my own nniid tlial nin«- <{allons wit*' sniu;,'^diHl at one tiini'. .■!7l7'i. Was tiicrc sinut;;;lin;.' when pcfniits wcit nioic t'lcidy issui-d ' ^'i-s. A'// A'"-. Dr. .\f'. You assuuii' it did, luit you do not know .' I do not k- .■5717!'. You think liiat at'ter liccn >lii sc |it'o|ili' |iuii'iias('( iV at tliosc licf^nsci jilac'fs, wiii'icas |irfvi(pu- ly tht'V w ell' uonipclicd to puii-hasc at liiii'it piaft's '. t'crtainly. .'17180. What was the condition ot' tidnjis w ht-n t in' tour per rent plan came inti t'l III I do not know what you nwai •'hI^'I. Was thiTi' aH iimrh lii|Uoi' iisi-d or iimrr or I think less lii|Uor was •-niUL'L'Iril III. .'17 I'*'!.'. I >o you know whi'llirr wnili'r pi'iiiiits to si'li t'liur pi'i' rent liriT, peojiii' sold almost I'vi'ivtliinif i think so .■i7 IS.'i. |)o you know whother tlu- jfiMU'ial sale of spirituous liipiors incrfa.sed after the four |ier cent permits were issued] --1 could not sjieak as to that. .'17l>'l. iVIiout what was the usual ipiantity of lii|Uiir asked under a permit? — I always sent for 10 j,'allons. inj; almost entirely in favour of the ;i7 l^*."). ^'ou spoke alioul jiulilie seiitinielit I' ihiliitioii ill the iicensu law as to certain I lours tor sal |)o \ou know what is tli^ |iiil)lie seiitiinent in re<;ard to the general prohiliitioii of the trade? I >o you mean totii priihihitioii :{71S(1. \ I fanev if it 'le |)Ut to a Mite it would not carry .'i7 IS7. That is your opini .'t7IS,><. r understanil that it ha.s not been tested in the Territories .' Not that I know of. .'I7li^!i. Do you think if it were put to the test, and the majority of the people decided in favour of it, that it would lie ri<;lit to try •mil pmhiliit the tratlic.' — I do imt tiiiiik it is proper to interfere with tiie rights of anv citizen, or to dictate as to how ,i man should spend his money. .'17I!'II. So, inanyease, you are oppis-'d to prohi lition '. ^'es. Hon. CirAllLHS li. ]{< »rJJv\ l', of Calyary, Justice of the Supreme Court ..t the Xorth-west Territories, on bein;;- duly sworn, deposed as follows : -- Bj/ Jmlgp McDonnhl : .'>74',M. How loiiy; have you resided in Caji'ai'v \ — T came herein the siiriny; of ISSii. 1 was at i'.attleford before that time. I came to tht North-west Territories in the fall of IHS"), and have been in the Territories for nine years. .■574'.tl'. I belie\e you came from the Province of (Juebei- originally .'— Yes. .■57l!t."5. From what part of (Quebec? -I was born at Isle \'erte, (.Jreeii Tslaml, County of Teiniscuuata. 1 was educated in ; as 11 citi/.i'ii lit' the 'rci'iildiirs, wlijcli liiivc vmi t'uumi |ii't't'i'i'iil)l(>, llir olil sy.stcni i>v tlie liffiiHi- Hvstfiii. which hits U-t'ii in furoc Mince 1st May? -I cum linnllv say much alMiiii the new --ystcni. Iiccaiisc it has nniy hccn in t'oi'cc it >h(iif time ; Itiit so tar as ('al;.'aiy is cunceined, I think it works icih'ialily well. Ut' couise the 1,,^' v\ants a htth' aini'iiihiient, it conlil hai':; |ioint which I have stifdied. ;17I'.'7. W'f understand tlial at the hist session ot'tlic Leyishiture some auiendmenls were j)ro|»ose(l, hut as tlit* session was hurried lliere was no o|i|iortunity to pass lliem '■ I saw tliat in the newspapers. ;I7 I'.''"*. |)o you know wliat was the tenor of tlie amendments .' I cannot now tell from memory what they were. .■I7l'.l'.t. From your experience of the permit .system, was there uuu'h liijUor in the Territories for consumption '/ When I was livinj; at Hattleford 1 did not think there was a lar;;e ijuantity of li(|Uor imported into the Territories, I suppose there was a uood reason for tliat, hecause that jiart of tlie country was far away from all railway I'omnninicat ion and far away from any place from which liijUor could he ohtained. Anyhody who was recommended could ;,'et a permit from the liieutemint-(io\ernor to lirinf{ in li<|i/ii-. The population there was small, hut afterwards more peopl(> came in and the law was less ohserved, and larjic i|uaiitities of lii|Uijr were illicitly imported into the country. .'("■"iftO. |)o you know wlii'lher the people in tho.se days resorted lo such compouniU as pain-killer, eau . Was that the eHect of the decision .' If I hrin;: in litpior under a perniil tVom the Lieutenant (iovernor it is IcLjally imported, and it helonijs to me, and there is no ohjection to my j;ivin<; it to a nei;,dihour or <^i\iiij.; a man a hottle if I like, so loiiy .1'; the(|uantity covered hy the permit is not ex>ee(!;'d. It does not make the ai'tion illegal or illicit to gi\e the lii|Uor away. •')7i>0l. Yf)ur decision did not relax the law in rcijard to h.irter or sale .' No. .■{7")0r). Was your .ittention called to the fact that search was freipiently made tlirouf^h gotids with a \ iew to tinding lii|Uor concealed inthiMn. Were any appeals iii.ide to you in order to restrain search? — Nt). .S7oOt). |)id jiersons who were searched lu'ver appeal to you for injunctions to ii"-train the police.^ I had no experience of that. •'>7")07. As a citi/en of C'aluary, are yon able to say whetlier before there ^^'as a iliaui^e in tiie law there was illicit sale j,'oiiif; on in the conimunity? — Yes. • m'jOS. W'e liave bee.n told to-day that this has been iroinf; on for two yeais? — Yes. I'or two years l)et'ore the license systeiii was adopted li(|Uor was pretty nearly as free as it is now. •■57509. We hear that it was sold ([uite openly ; Yes. 381 n. WT" i^ ! ']^'< '.' fe' :i i f' S m. Liquor Traffic — Noitli-west Territories. 'Mty\0. Do you know tlie (|Uiility of tlic li(|Uor, wlictlwT it was i)uri'\'2. Have you ever considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the persistent drunkard ! Althouj^h you may not ha\e such mc-n heie, you know the kind of man to whom I refer, the man who is constantly befoi'e the police coui't and is .sent to jail for a shoit tei'iii, is then released ami is soon a<;ain before the court. lla\e you considere. Was smuggling the principal evil i — Yes. .'$7.")'_'0. I ask you, as a .jurist, wiiat is the effect on a connnunity of having a law on the statute-book which is persistently and flagrantly violated I - It lias an evil etl'ect. The first evil effect is this, it brin,us into this country despei'ate characters, whisky suuiggleis, wiio are not the best part of the population of any country. They make large pi'olits out of the trade and they risk a great deal to bring in the lii|Uor, and of course they are not the kind of citizens we like to see. .Since the license .system has come inti force these parties have di^a|)|ieared. I believe the pi'ohibitory law was unpopular with the people in this part of the country, so fai' as T know the feelings of the people. and of course they woidd not oi)serve it. 37.">-l. Had you verv many cases brought before you in connection with tiiat law ' —Yes. 'M-'y22. of what kind ?— Appeals from convictions by Magistrates. .■>7">-.'>. Ha\e you considered whetliei' it would be i-iglit in case of the enactment of a jirohibition law for the whole country, that brewers ai\d distillers should receivi' remuneration for their loss of plant and machinery / — I have not con udered that ipies- tion, because it never entered into my mind that a prohibitory law would be passed for the wliole Dominion. I think if such a law v ere jiassed, it would be oidy right that those parties should receive remuneration ; but, on the other hand, 1 have always con sidered that that law is one of tliose good things that cannot be enfori'cd. My re.ison for thinking that is, because a man could manufacture li(juor any way in his own lioiise So I think it is one of the fiiK> theories that are not practicable. 37.'")1.'4. We have had much evidence in ti.e Province of <.^uel)ec in regard to llie advantage of promoting the use of light wines and ales instead of tlu- heavier licpiois ' — Yes, 1 think it would be a g(Mid thing if light wines could be introduced into tin' country. You have an example of their use in I'' ranee, where the people do not think of drinking water, and the |)rincipal use they mak>' of it is for washing purposes. In {''ranee the people are most temperate, notwithstantling the fa<'t that they are habitual users of light wines. .■(7o"jr). Do you think the climatic conditions here might render it ditlicult to use those liipiors here ? — Yes. .■{7r)"_Ml. You would favour the adoption of such a system, if it were ]>ossil)le ? Ye-, for a certain class of the people. I do not think, howevei', that you should deprive (lie Hon. Cii.\hi,ks li J^on.KAf. 382 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Ifii'j,'!' niiijofity of the i)Pojile <>f wlmt liquor tlicv wish, hci'iiusc thi- iliiuikards ai'f sucli ii small iiiiiudity nt' tht^ pt'oiilc of the wholn Doiiiiniuii tiifit tlit v mo liai'iiiy worlli sjicak- iiij; (if. For instance, in this conniiunity with a iiopulatinn of l.UOO |icn|i](', muyhly si.eakinj;, I do not know now of one habitual drunkard : tluTc may he one or two in till' town, hut I do not know of them. •i7-")i!7. I'akinij your experionce as a whole, of the town and your knowledj^'e of this section, do you believe that a very small minority of tho.se who use licjuors use them to e.vcess / — I believe so. ;i7i">-'^. Have you had any e.xperiencc of a prohii)itory law 'n< any other lountry 1 — 1 Itave seen it in Vt-rmont, but it was not a sucee.ss. We could get all the litjuor we wanted. ;$7")2'.). You spoke of some appeals uoniing before you : of what nature were they? — They were appeals from convictions. .■i7r)30. For iiaving liijuor to .sell or for selling liiiuor?— Probably for having liijuoi* in their possession. Tiiere was a difference of opinion and the Justices of the Peace tiiought their opinion was right, and I thouglit my ojiinion was lietter. .■}7-")-'U. Your opinion prevailed ! -Yes, and they had to amend the law to suit their own way of interpreting it. They had been enforcing the law contrary to its real meaning. There had been strictness on their part and on the part of the Magistrates ill trying to enforce the law, but they might have enforeeil it in a simpler manner. .'<7-").'}2. You say there was strictness on their part ! — Yes, they iiad been very strict so far as they went, but I tiiought they would have enforced the law with more etlect if they had arre.'-ied jiarties for selling the liquor. Tliat is a \ery simple matter, for a man selling liquor over a l)--.;- could be arrested. It is, moreover, easier to pi'ove such a case, but in regard to having licpior in possession it is very ditlicult to prove it, for wiieii a man produces a permit and says he has li(]uor in his pos.session legally, it is ilillicult to make out a case. ;i7r);i.'i. W'e tind there was a great increast' in the 'juantity of liipior coming into the 'i'erritories of late years, and it ha.'- been suggested that owing to this fact, the lienuit .system was extended so as to bting in li(]Uor legally and get rid of the smuggled lii|uor .' — 1 have no per.sonal knowleilge in regard to that matter, and the only opinion 1 lui\t' is from what 1 ha\t' heard. .'!7.">.'i4. Ha\e you e\cr had any case iiefor(^ you that inviilved the search of peison Mild domicile by the police uniler the jirohibitory rt'gulations .' No such case came liefure me for in\estiiratioii that I remember. ' II !^ :i ! .(1 ■; , i I I ssed fur rlit that ays coll Iv reason ,11 llOilse d to tlir li(|Uors ' into the not think OSes. In habitual lit to use Ic? -Ye-, jprive the Vi Jli/ Ner. Dr M s prolubitn.ii was fairly well enforced ? ;i7-"i.'ii). And in tlie later years there was more lii|i!or consumed .' Yes; tiie popu- 1 ilioii grew larger-, and it was more dillieiilt to enforce the law. .'m-'i.'m. Was it attriliutable in ,'iny degree to the miiiilier of permits issucii '- >o, I lliiiik it was due to th(- large increase in t he population. (>f course with a larg"' increase lit' pop'ilation, there would be a large increase in the number of permits issa* il, because when li'.e riieutenant-(!o\-ei:ior knew a man jiersoiedly he granted him a permit. ■')7.").'lt'<. In lfr. and llhre was three or four times as lai'g(( a population as there was liefore. •>7-'">."lit. Did you notice jiny ditl'erence after the introduction of the four per cent lieer 1 refer to an increase in drinking f -No, I cannot say that ! i-emembei' any great diU'ereiice. H7.")40. In 18M7, under the four jier cent plan, there wert> l"il, 12U gallons permitted '( riiat includeil beer, of coun-ic. 383 1 i 11 1 1 iiii If' jffi V Ipi Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. •■i7i">U. A giKul (|Uiiiititv of luHif, 1111(1 tlicre was iiu increase also in iIk; c|iiaiitity of spirits pcniiittcd to conio in .' Yes.' ■'i7")4l!. Coiiipariiig tilt! itiiue after tli/l' four per cent i)eer was permitted witli tiic years preceding it, did you observe wlietlier tliere whs an iiierease in the eonsunijition of li(|uor and an incieiise in the etl'ects of li(|Uor ,' It is pretty iiard to say, liec-ause the po[)iihition was increasing so fast. You cannot easily keej) track of those matters unless you make a jiarticular study of them. .'!7"» !•'{. I'rior to the license system, wliicli came into operation on 1st May last, we have lieen told here that the town of Calgary actually issued licenses to a iiumher ot persons in the face of the permit system. Do you know anything ahout that.' — Thev were not licen.sed to sell li(|Uor. 'Mi'ii-i. They were licensefl, to do what .' They were licensed to k"ep saloons. The\ were iillowed to sell what wei'f^ called temperance drinks. .■iT")!."). That suggests unother ipiestion : Do you know whether they .sold other than temperance drinks',' That is hard for me to say. I know one or two cases were brought before me in which the parties were charged witli selling spirituous liquors, and they pleaded. ;{75 1(1. What did they jilead? T could not tell you the particulars of the cases ; they occurred two or three years ago. ;i7")l7. NN'lieii they were brought before you charged with selling without perm,;, were they able to produce stubs of permits and thus protect themselves from peiinl ties? -They could not do that iiecause the Lieuteiiant-(Jovernor never allowed tlieiii tn sell, I mean to sell spirituous lic|Uors : as a rule they were brought before me forluuiiii; li(|Uor in their possession. .'i7;")4l^. Then it was not possible to pro e that they sold the lii|iior.' They weic not accused of selling. .■}7-")+9. Has a man a right to sell litpior and then produce a stub as his justiHcation on a charge of selling li(|Uor on his permit .' — There never was such a case. .'!7nr)0. Do you Know, from your general knowledge, that men who had niunicip.il licen.ses did really sell spirituous li; that have been in o()eration, the (S'lrlv perniii system, then the four i)er cut beer system, and now the license system, able ill your opinion ?-- So far as I am c(iiicerne(l, I would rather restricted, and regulated by law, and I prefer a license system. .')7-")-">2. You have already stated that the license l.-iw has been sc liort a time in operation that you have not been able to form a judgment in regard ti it. So far ,i- regards the Province of (^)uebec, I know it worki'd jiretty well, and you can make ii a~ strict as you plejise. .'i7'").").'i. Do vou regard the old system as a ]irohibitioii system or as a permit svstcin ' — I think it was neither a tish nor a bird. I lio not know what to call it. It \va> prohibition to a certain cla.ss of the population. .■)7">-")l. So it really could luit be regarded as out and out |)roliil)itinn .'- It was nni a real prohibition system. .■(7.").")."). I notice that Commissioner Herchmer in his report for ISS;)^ referrini; tn the li(|Uor trattic in the Territories, said : " The peruiit system should be doneaway with. if the law is to be enforced." Uy which I understand him to mean that permits were issued (althf)Ugh he does not say so) indiscriminately, "that made the system of jirohibilii.n iiiipracticaiile." Have you observed that '. — No. I did nut think of that, because in Is.sli, I w;is living here at the time, and I know as a fact that iiijuor was \ ery freelv inipoiiiil The ijieuleiiant-CJovernor after a lime refused to issue j)ermits .'{"ri'iG. Ft has been slated by some witnes.ses that smuggling was 'facilitated ami made safe by the jiermit system, that if a man had a pei'init for ti\'e gallons he held I In' stub; that if a further ijuantity was smuggled in, and if he was accused of lia\iiiu' li(|Uor in his jiossession, all he had to do was to jiroduce the stub, and so long as lin' (piantit" ilid not exceed the specified amount he was safe .' The ditliciilty was tlii^. tliai the permits did not specify the time which the man might hold the liipior in liis yn- session. If] had li(juor in my poss 'ssitin F ilid not find it necessary,;'., iniiic jiaiti'sdid, IFON. ClIAHLKS I'. WoLl.lvM'. 384 which is prefci see the tr.uli 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 fiii;;! intity lit vith till- ;uni|itiuM aiisf till' !rs vmU'ss r last, \M' iiiiber ot' I, ?— They (lis. Thf'v itlier than ISPS well' luni's, ami ,lu' cast's ; It jieniil;. run lu'lliil ll tlK'lll til t'di-liaviin: ['hey wt'ic istifiiMtiim iiuiiiic'iiial pci'siiiially. Illy jHTiiiii ll is prcffi tlic trail-' a time ill Si) t'ar a- iiakc il a- lit systciu ; it \va- l<> (h'iiik It all at once. 1 kept it for one or two years, and it would always he cM)\ci'fd l>y the permit ; and later on the fuh; was adojited hy wliifh excry time a permit was filled tlu! permit itself must he returned and ix- cancelled and all the man wmild I'etaiii W((uld he the stuh. •■57")o7. Was that lately! — No, it was a pretty lung time ago. When a man wanted to make it a])pear that he had a jieruiit lie would refer to the stuh. If the permit was not cancelled, the man would send hack for any other sujiply. .'?7-')o8. You spoke ahout the '"gold cure'' and a})peared to think that it would he a hetter way of dealing with inebriates ( — Yes, from what T have seen of the results it is a perfect cure. I have known 10 or 12 men who were advaiiceij in the alcoholic disease and they were practically cured. .'iToi")!). Do you think it is wise for the Goveriunent to permit a tratlic that reipiires such institutions to be maintained ! — J}y taking prop in these Territories and in the east is ijuite contrary to that. Bi/ Judge McDonald: •■!i-'")lt7, lu regard to the use of wine in France. If the use of wine has developed a desi.i' tor iilcohol, that is now said to be more prevalent tlian formerly, would not you 1 ,.\'-'- exT)t eil it to have developed centuries ago I — Yes. ■:,;j'j'".. This use of light wines in France is not a thing of recent years, I suppose ', ->.' . it 1. IS Ijeea continued for centurie.s. u:\ I I I ■ r! t was iiiii I ternng to iway with, (.]■(■ is>\lril r((hibiiii.ii SI' in t>>''. iiiipiirliil itatcd anil ,- held ill'' of ha\,!.'j long ''^ ''"' s tills, thai in l.'is I'll- parti.'M'i'l. A. ROSS CUTHP.KUT, of Calgary, Inspector of the Xorih-wesi .Mounted l',.licc, III! Ii"iiig duly sworn, deposed as follows: — Jii/ Jud(/e McDonald : '^~'>{V.K How long have you resided in tin Territories? Siin ■■ the sunmierof 18'^'). ;$7o70. Did you come here in connection with the police force ?- Yes. ■i7")71. Have you been stationed at any other places than Calgary /I was four V' ''N f I'rince All)ert, aljout one year at Uegina and the rest of the time here. 17 .iVl'. From which of the provinces did you come? — l''rom (.^ueiiec, the County of ll' I tliier. •i7.'')7,'?. I suppose, in the ihscharge of your ollicial duties, you hav(; had todeal with '111' prohibitory or permit law ? — Yes, it h;is ijeen oius of the many duties which the Miiuiited Police have had to discharge. .•{85 21 25** It ill i! 1 I. II ii Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. 37i)7 L So fav as your experience extends have the Mounted Police endeavoured faithfully to carry out the duties committed to them 1 — Yes, as a Ijody they have. 13757-'). Have you found it very ditHcult to do so 1 — Yes, very ditticult. 3757C. Have you found many difhculties in the way of preventing people bringing in liquor ?~Yes. .'57")77. Please give the Commissioners your experience as regards those dirticulties 'I — Of course in great many cases those matters have been reported to me as an officer. Personally, I have had no special experience, except in regard to destroying seized liquors which had been found in all manner of goods and packed in all kinds of ways. l57n7M. In what way was the liquor j)acked ? — Some liquor was found packed in piano and organ cases, also in barrels of apples, and sugar and rice. .37579. Have you reason to believe that fill the liquor so packed and sent into the country was detected ? — No, only a very small percentage was detected I fancy. .37580. Had you occasion to deal with people who were misusing permits, that is to say, permits that had run out '?— Yes, especially in Calgary. .37581. In that way ' .s there trouble here? — When a case was brought up for trial under the statute al • ariably the party produced a permit to cover the liiiuor, the j)ermit not neces£:i. > liis own name, but one used by another person and which covered the same quantic_; 37582. Were the liquors seized for being exposed for sale ? — They were seized for being in possession of the parties. It was very difficult to get a case of selling, because it was difficult to get anybody to buy a drink and then inform. 3758.3. Have you found, in the discharge of your duties, that in those cases there was a great deal of perjury connnitted, more so than in other cases ? — Yes, very much more so. A man hardly considered it any offence to lie in the whisky cases. 37584. Have you found, in your experience, that there were people who used Jamaica ginger, ])ain-killer and substances of that kind for beverage purposes 1 — Yes, and reil ink and methylated s])in'' s, als(> the contents of fire hand grenades and almost everything that would intoxicate. 37585. Those are cases that came under your own personal knowledge, I suppose .' — They occurred at Prince Albert. 37586. It has been suggested that only old topers could use such compounds. Was it youi' experience that the use of such articles was confined to that class? — Very nuicli so; but, of course, Jamaica ginger was considered one of the very best drinks next to liquor itself. .37587. Then its use was not confined to the old toper class? — Not altogether. 37588. Do you know <»f the drink in Prince Albert called Moka ? — I have heard of it. It was spoken of as an intoxicating diink, but I never had any experience of it. .37589. Were yi>u here at tlie time the cargo of barrels labelled " four per cent beer" was seiz(Ml and found to C(jntain spirituous li(juors, which were destroyed ? — Xo, I do not remember. 1 was not here at the time. .37590. Latterly, before the license law came into operation, there were a great many permits for 20 gallons, and beei' came in in l)ai'rels containing bottles of beer at V)oth ends and whisky in the centre, which came undei' beer permits ? — Yes, and bottles of aerated water came in, and between them were bottles containing spirituous liquors. 37591. Judging from your experience, do you think it is practicable to thorougiily enforce a pi'ohibitoi-y law ? — I do not, unless public opinion became more in favour of it, and that seems to be an utter impossibility. ■37592. Have you found that feeling prevailing over the country at large? — Yes. altogether. 37593. You have lived in communities where the license law was in force and where sale was not permitted on Sunday and during certain hours ? — Yes. 37594. Did you find public sentiment in favour of such prohibition? — Yes ; but in a great many cases the law was not carried out. 37595. Then the j)eople backed the law ? — Yes, there was a greater feeling in favoui' of carrying out that law. 37596. Do you find the ^ame feeling prevailing in the Territories in regard to total prohibition ? — No, there is not. A. Ross CUTIlIiEKT. 880 a great Ikht .u ul bottle- IS li(iuor-. ior()U,tilily .ourof it, re r- Yes, force iiiul L>s ; Vmt ill 111 favour •d to tdtiil 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'{7;"}!>7. Were you troubled with illieit .^^tills at all ? — Yes, there were three or four illicit stills in this district. .SToD^. What did they use for tlie iiurpose of distillation ? — It was very hard to tell. They had not been in recent use. In one or two corn was found. I know that whisky was niafle from potato peelings. .'{7599. Where spirituous li([uors were sold, had you any I'eason to believe they were adulterated ? — Of course there was a difl'erence in (juality, but I had no means (jf knowing whether they were adulterated or not. .■?7600. Wo far as your knowledge goes and so far a.s your experiences as an oflicer of the North-west Mounted Police force goes, has that force, as a body, honestly and truly endeavoured to carry out its duties ?— Yes, to the best of my knowledge. There have been a few exceptions. The temptations have been great for men placed in responsible positions, and in regard to a few individuals we had reason to believe afterwards that they had yieldeii, as their duties could have been more satisfactorily done. I5ut, as a general rule members of the force faithfully carried out their duties and the law was endeavoured to l)e enforced. .■?7()01. Had you any cases where domiciliary search was made .'—Yes, and search of persons. 37602. .•i760:5. ••{7604. -Yes. That became neces.sary in some cases, I suppose ?- And it was carried out 1 — Yes. I suppose, in .some of the cases of visiting houses, the men did the duty becau.se it was laid on them to do so? — I have no knowledge of any other intluence making the men do so except the .sense of duty. .S7G0o. You found it to be a disagreeable duty, I suppose? — Yes. ■■{7()06. But you found the men, as a body, faitiifully doing their duty? — Yes. By Rev. Dr. McLmd: 37007. Do I understand that the permits increased the difticulties of the police in enforcing the law ? — Very much so. .■i7()08. Do you regarfl the system as a system of jjrohibition or rather of permis- sion ] — It was a .system of permission. .'{7r)09. Have yt)u ever had much trouble on account of the drinking habits of the men under your charge? — Yes. It has been one of the greatest dilHculties witii the force. Of course the men occupy [)ositioiis in which temptations liave Ijeeii placed in (heir way, probably such temptations as are not jilaeed in the way of otht-r men. 37'}-2. That w<»ukl he a very strong tem[)tation I suppose'/ — Yes, especially for a man who only gets 81-'< a month, unless he was of very gcxxl metal and resisted. 'M{'}'2'.\. Then he would have to be something over the ordinary averag;' man 1 — Yes. Hecause he expected to be only a few years in the force and he could cai'ry this on without being found out. 'Mii'2l. I )o you think that this state of things prevailed over the Territories and that it interfered with the rigid enfor'-ement of the law ? — Yes, iti a few cases. 'VH\'2'i. Take the last year or two in Calgary bi'fore the license law came into operation : we understand there were licenses to sell licpiid I'efreshments granted to 10 or 20 persons who were supposed to sell at the same time spirituous li(|uors and intoxi- cants. I)o you know whether members of the force were in the habit of prosecuting those places'? — 1 do not know that they were generally prosecuted, but some were, no doubt. •57G2(). Were complaints made by the officers against those dealers for illicit selling t — It was very difficult to get information on which to base a complaint, because men who were brought up for being drunk would nevei' say where they got the liijuor ; they could not be forced to tell. 37G27. I suppose the officers looked out for infringements of the law in Calgary as well as elsewhere 1 — Yes. 'Mi'i2H. Were there many cases of infringement brought to the attention of tin- otli cers ?— A great many. ■'57GL"J. Those were prosecuted and penalties imposed ? Always. .'57G.'50. W^ere there many cases of convictions in Calgary during the time that liquid refreshments were allowed 'f — There were a great many. .■{7G;{1. It has been suggested, anirit if not tlie letter iif llie law. If the system had htMMi (ib.ser\('d, wuidd there have heeii any litjuor snuij,'<;lin;^ in sugar l)arrels and the like? -Yes, hut not to the Name extent. When tlie le<,'al decision had been i;i\en that any permit cnuld cu.ei' a tfiven (piantity of li(|U(ii', then it s\as that perndts were issued more extensively. Iiefoie that time li(|unr was smui;i,ded more. • 'iTlilL'. Was there not, after tiie inti'oduction of tlie four per cent lieer ]>laii, a i;reat deal of smuggling .' — Y'^es ; there has heen continuously a great deal of smuggling and large quantities of liipior have come in on the cars. .■i7t)4.'5. No less than I. ")."5, 000 gallons were covered by permit in ISIKJ. Would that, ill any degree, co\ci' the ipiaiitity brought into the Territories.' J>y no means. •'iTtUI. Then there was a lai'ge i|uaiitity smuggled ' — Y'es. I have a case in which a man was informed against for having liijuor in his jiossession and who, di ring the same day, produced permits for double the ipiantity he had — permits that h(^ had collected (luring the day. Sijiiie of thos(! permits were for liipior obtained a year before. It was loo absurd to pass o\er, so the pei'mits were returned as not co\ering the lii|Uor. ."Mtilo. We ha\e been told that latterly the stubs were coUectcMl and cancelled?- - Latterly they we-re. ."(TlUf). ^^'o have been told tluit when a man got a permit the stub would be left with him for his protection and the permit would be sent to the seller. The Ivxpress (.'oiiipany reipiired the permit which was afterw arils cancelled, but the man retained the stub and could use it afterwards and justify his being in possession of liijUor? — It mav ha\e been done in some localities, but I do not know of it being done here. •')7(i47. We have been told that during the last two years there has lieen illiiit sale carried on here ! — Yes. ■■iTtill^. Tn several places I -Yes. ;57G4'.t. And the action taken recently was simply licensing w hat was before illegal ! - Yes. There was sale, and we were not able to gel lujld of the oirenders. It was dilh- ciilt to get information sutlicient to obtain convictions, and this ditliculty prevailed in a ureal many cases which would otherwise liaM- been proceedetl against. •■i7()--)0. Y'ou have spoken of temptations in the way of your men that \('re not in the way of other men I Y'es. The saloon-keeper knows that a mounted jioliccman sduty is to catch him if he can, and he will try to get the policeman on his side by some means or other. •">7n.")l. ^'ou think that only in a limited number of cases they succeeded .' Yes. hy Rev. Dr. McLeod: •'w'io'J. ^'(lU were not aware of any ]ierioil when the stubs were cancelle nil not awaiv of any period when the stubs were cancelled. No, I •ocure one 389 ^ I ^1^:;;^ i=li*i Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. ARTHUR STFTON, of Calgary, barrister, on Ijeiiii,' duly sworn, deposed as fulldws ; — Jii/ Judiji' MrDiniiild: .'?7(5')-'?. AVe understand ytui liold an otlicial position ? — Yes, I do at jiresent. •t7nr)4. Wliat is it? — 1 am Town Solicitor. .■i7()-"»"). Art' you ajipointi'd by tiic Town Council ! -Yes. ;>7li")fi. Wliat are you !• duties / -My duties are to conduct suits on l)elialf of the Corpiii'ation, draw up l)y-laws, attend to infractions of those by-laws and advise the Council. .■!7(t">7. How long have you lived in the North-west Territories? — Since 1885, with the exce]>fion of (jne year I sjieut in California. .'!7<)-")8. Have you resided in Calgary all that time '. — Xo. I was two and one-half years at Pr'ince Albert. .■57tv")!l. How long have you held the position of Town Solicitor? — Two months. .'{70GU. Did you come from Ontario originally?—! came from Manitoba to the Territories, but I cauHs from (Jntai'io in 187.). •'{7')l)l. From what county? — From Middlesex. .'i7ti<'il'. Speaking in yourofHcial capacity, how tlo you find the licenst^ system to work. Are there any amendments you can suggest in regard to it .'--Yes, there are a numi)er of amendments desirable. ;{7(3();{. We should be glad to hear them stated ? I think those suggested b}' the Mayor this morning, and by the Chief of Police, would be, to a certain extent, improve- ments, namely, to have open bar-rooms fronting the street and with no screens at win- dows. 1 think in regard to tliewhoiesalelicen.se i.ssued the quantity allowed to be .sold is entirely too small, and besides the party is allowed to keep open on Saturday night after the hotels are closed. .'57ti<') 1. They are altoweil to keep open up to what hours? — Up to 11 o'clock. .■(7'' ">. Are they allowed to sell groceries in connection with lifiuors \ — Xn, only li([Uors. ;?7t>ti('). What evil do you tiiink the permission to keep open causes? -The woi-kiiii; men are in the habit of purchasing i)ottles of li(|Uor and taking it home with them, whereas it would jirobably be better if they could only get it by the glass. •'i7l)fi7. Have you any other suggestions to offer. In some ))laces it has been sug gested that inspection of liquors woidd be desirable ? — I do not tlr ik that would niakr any particular ditl'erence. .'i7ti(')S. What do you think in regard to the number of licenses that should In- allowed, 'i'ake Calgary, for instance : is the luunber reasonable? — If hou.ses are to bi' licensed 1 think tin- lunnljer is a fair one for this town. I do not think the number of hotels is in e.vcess of the nuudier required. We ha\t' a floating population and icquirc a good dial of hotel accommodation. ;i7t')t'>'.t. Do you third< the restaurants are re(juired for the sale of li((uor ? I ilo iioi think they are. M7fl70. Do you think the restaurants should be i-e(juired to close at the same time ;i- tlie hotels. Are they obliged to do so? — Xo. .'i7t')71. Mow long can they keep open.' — I havene\er jjaid any at ten tioa to restaurant >. ■'<7''^l. Y'ou have heard the e\iilence f,dven by the otlicers of the Xorth-west .Mounted Police as to tlx; diliiculties they had in i-egard to enforcing; the prohibitory law in tin- Territories .'—Yes. ■■i7GSL'. Lookini; at their account, a!id taking the country as a whole, you still think that prohibition could be enforced ! — Yes. .■{7()S.">. What means would you suf;;,'est of enforcinti it .' — I think if tht; ^^a,l;is- trates ap|>ointed to enforce it, and the justices before whom the cases came, were in favoui' of the enforcement of a prohibitory law, and the law was properly drawn, it could be enforced with the number of men we iiave tit present, or with a less numlter. 37084. l)o I understand you to say that the judiciary of the country will follow their own fcelini.'s, they not being in favour of the law, in deciding legal ([uestions that come before them .' — No, I do not say so. .■?7(')lS."). You said if you had a judiciary in favour of the enforcement of the law ! — - Yes, I was referi'ing more generally to the Magistrates. .■)7l')lS(). It has generally been conceded that the judiciary of this country ne\'er allow themselves to be influenced by those sentiments in the ailministi'ation of the law,' --1 do not say they do. But take the evidence of Inspector C'uthliert. lie said the decisions of the court went a long way in preventing them from enforcing the law I do not mean that the decision of the court was wrong or that the members of the court were wrongly intluenccd, but the court did hold that the law was not as it was supposed to be. .■i7087. I)o you mean to say that the court was wrong.'- No. I mean to say it was not a prohibitory law. •'?7t>8S. How do you propose to strengthen the action of the Juiliciary upon the Muestion : is it not the duly of the judiciary to decide all principles? — Certainly. •■57(iSU. That being the c;ise, it is not the appointment of .Magist rites and Judges who were faxourabie or unfaxourable to the law that would intiucnce ''le decisions !~ The a]ipointinent of Magistrates would ha\e a great ileal to do w ith the matter. • HtlDO. Magistrates of what kind .' — Ordinary Justices of the Peace. •■?7<)9l. Have you not those now .' — ^We liav<' a great many of them. •')7t)!)"J. Would you propose to select Justices of a different kind in order to carry iiiit a prohiljitory law .' — I would. •■)7l)9.">. Would you select men who were favourable to the law .'- .\o, Init I would Kc Very careful to get good men. •")7t)!)-l-. Are the authorities not careful now? — They Jire not always careful. It must, however, be remembered that these Miigistrates act to a largi; extent without )i.iy. and it is of course dilHcult to get good incn who are competent to dexnte the neces- '■ary time to the woi'k without being paid for it. ■■57t)y.'). Is there anything to prevent the appointment of a Stipendiary Magistrate? -I think that would be proper. .')7t)i)(J. Are you acijuainted with the Irish Constabulary, which, as you know, is a jiicki'd force. Would that force be such a force as you have in \ iew .' — To a certain ex- tent, something similar to that. I believe for the enforcement of all laws, Stipendiary Magistrates are proper judicial olKcers to appoint. We have great dirticulty in all I'ases that are before ordinary Magistrates, who have no time to devote to them. .■{7(')!)7. Would you hope to enforce a prohibitory law under such conditions as you lia\e spoken of? — Yes. 37098. You think it would be ju-acticable and advisable ? — Yes 391 ! ii 11 Liquor Tmllic — North-west Territories. 'MCiW. |)o you tliiiik it >v<)ul(l he iuIn istiMf for tlio Triritorics asu wliolo ? I'or i !io Doniinioti as n wliolc. .■)770U. ^\ii(l for tlif 'riTrilui'ics ? -Yes, But I want iiotliiiit,' cxfciit nalioiial pro- liiliitioii. ."("TOl. If you could not f^ot jj;t'nerul prohibition, would you not take juoliibition for the Ti'i'i'itoiics .' T do not tliink I would. .'("TOi'. Ha\c you had any o]>iiortunity of fonnin;^ an (^pinion aa to the sentiment of the eonununity as a w hole on this sul)iec't ?- -I iind tiie sentiment- in tiiis part of tiie Teri'itoiies, and jiai'liiularly laitside of the towns of the southern I'ountry to he a f,'i-eat deal moi-e in fa\ouf of prohibition tiian is tiie sentiment in the towns, especially in Califary. 3770;'). Do you not lind the sentiment in towns as favourable to general prohibition as in th(' country .' No. ."$7701. Outside the towns, is tiie sentiment favoural>ie to it? — Yes. .1770(3. Can you account for a Legislature fresii from the people enacting a license law unless the inenil)ers were acting in accordance with popular sentinu-nt ? Yes, I can to a ctu'tain extent. Tiiere wi-re oth(!i' ipiestions before tli(! peo))le at the time the last Legislature was elected. W'e elected t wo ukmi in this district by acclamation without contest. .'5770t). Were they both license men? — Yes. Wiiile there were a great number nf prohibitionists in tliis district there was not a sufficient number who thought it was an important matter to elect a candidate in oi)position to those men : they were considering other matters that were of larger importance. .'i77U7. So the entire prohibitionists in Calgary did not attempt to carry out pro- liibition? — No. .■i770.'^. Was that the case in the whole country? -W'itii the excejition of one ur two districts : in Assinilioia it was tiie ca,se. .■>770!t. Aixl tile Ijcgislature passed a license law? \'es. .■'>77lO. ])id the candidates to whom you iiave referreil, profess to be in fa\our of a liceu.se law 'I — Yes, we all knew tiiey were in favour of a license law. ■■(7711. Dut owing to tiie fact tiiat they were in accoi'danci! with the people's wishes on otlier (piestions, they voted for them ? - - Y'es. •">7712. AX'as no etl'ort made to elect a prohibition candidate? No. Those men had both been members of the House before, and had ad\anced the principles that the people wanted to have advanced, and so they voted for tliem. 3771-'^. And yet the weight of sentiii'.tMit in this direction w.as for prohibition? — I do not think it was in this district. 37714. Would th(> town overrule tiie district ? — Yes, i think that the whcile dis trict of Calgary is against prohii)ition. 3771-"). Are you able to speak personally of other districts, of the choice of can- didates they made ? The same ditliculty pi'evailed in regard to other districts and for similar reasons. There were other very important ina.'^ters ix'fore tiie people 'Our people liavt} only enjoyed rejiresentative government tiies" last fe'v years, and all the members had IjecMi in the House during that time with the (Xception of four oi' live. 377 I<). ]n the ca.se of tiie passage of a general ])rohibitory lasv, a law proliibiting the manufacture, inii)ortiition and sale of intoxicating li(iut)rs for lieverage purposes, d" you think it would be right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation fur their loss of plant and maciiinery? — T have never considei d that (jucstion very much, and I do not think it would make very much diH'erence : l)ut since? you have asked the question to-day 1 ha\e liceii thinking of it, and my opinion is that it woulil be right that couipen.sation should be made for sucli machinery as would be rendered truly useless. 37717. You understand that Ijy statute or by departmental regulations they are obliged to provide certain kinds of machinery wliicli is lialile to be changed from time to time, and that they are compelled to keep their spirits two or tliree years for rectifica- tion pur])oses? — I know tliat. 37718. You think if a general prohibitory law was passed, they should be cum- pensated 1 — Y'^es. Ahthui! Siftov. 392 nti ' ii 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Ml had 1,. (li^ of C.Ul- ■111(1 tor 'Our all thf live, lihitini,' uses, il" tioii till' imiili. ^ki'il till' gilt thill eless. hey iiif tiuu'to i-ectitua- be cdin- .'I'Tl!'. Wiiat is your (ij)iiii(iii (if the (.'iiiiimunity as uoiiipiii'tMl wiiii coiiiiiiunitii's in other places ; is it a sohcr ami (iiii(rt one .' — It coniiiaivs well with eastern eoinnuinities. Of eoui'se we have a ttoatini,' |io|iiilatii)n at times that is greater than they luuc in eastern (•(imiiuinities of the same si/.e, hut our resident people will tiniipare favoiiralilv with pe(ip|o in other communities, 'M'-O. It has hoeii stated that there have heen more casesof drunkenness since the license law came into forcis l)Ut, taking all in ail, is any jiercentage of the peojile wlnt drink and get drunk non-i'esideiit.s ! Some of them. 'M7'2\. Peojile who have just come into town .' Yes, iitit some of them have lieen people who have Keen here some little time. in regard to that matter the Chief of I'olice was asked tlu; ciuestioii, !ind he did not seem to know. We lo(>k(Ml over the Ijooks this morning, and I found that since the license law came intooperation there have lieen I.'IO arrests for all oirences. ( )f that iiumher 102 have lieen for di'unkenness. These have been during the six months the law hasbeen inforce. l'"or the coirespoiuling six months before, tliei'e were (iU arrests for all oU'enees and '■'>■'< were for cases of drunkenness or xiigrancy. Jiy Rne hundred and two drunks are the figures. Of the other .'14 ca.ses, ilo y(ni know whether any proportion of them were charged with oil'ences due directly or indirectly to the drink trallic '.' -The greater proportion of them were houses of ill-fame. .'iTTl.'."). They were not chai'ged with selling liipior, but with being disorderly .' Koi- violation of the town by-law. .■<772(). Are there many such jilaces in town ? — There are not at pi'eseiit. There lia\(' been considerable tillbrts made lately to weed them out. '■Ml'l'i. Then the number .'i 1 would not represent that iiuihIkm' of places? No. ."5771.'''^. So practically we understand that the VM't cases that came up iiefore the l"iliee court during the la.st six months had more or less connection with the drink trade and the drink habit ? — \'"e.s, with very few exceptions. During the other jieriod there ui'ii' v U lln' wlioli' tluty left tason to helieve that li(|Uorwas sold fjctlyat that time,' -Yes. ;i771'_'. I mean intoxic.nts ?— (J|uit(! freely. .■577l'i. Was no notice tal'en of it / N'ery little. ■■!77M. ^\'as ;iny sjtecial n>>tice taken of it hy the .Mounted Police ! — I do not remendier any case of sellinj; which the .Mounted l'olic(! lirou<{ht dnrin;,' the lasr year or so before the lieen.se law canu' into foi'i'e. Inre<,'ar(l to this matter 1 may say that my opinion i:; that a hiw a^rainst sollinj^ which allows men to have li(|Uor in their |)0s.se8sion is non-eiifiin Iliie anywhere, ;ind that so iony as they are allowed to have it in their jnwses- sion it cannot he enforced. ■577ir). Tnen v<'U are not aware that much (Hbi't was maector Cuthbert, thiit the issue of permits made it so dillicult t(p enforce the law that it was impossible to enforce the ]>rohibition part of the .Vet /- Yes. I ha\e knt)wn of inst.inces where men have oi)taine(l pei'uiits regularly and trans- ferred them to jyaities who were en;;a<(ed in the business of selling. J. was informed by one man that he had j^ot a permit for five f,'allons almost every month, ami he hail invariably sent it as he r(!ceived it to a man who wjis in the habit of sellini; liquor. He would keep a bottle or so and i;i\'e the man the rest. I have known a number of casi's of that kind where permits were issued in tluit way antl the stul)s secured him so loni; as lie had not a lai-ger quantity in his jxisstission than was specified. .'577oO. Speakini; about the last election of mend)ers to the Lcj;i.-,lature, was tiic question of jiratiting pennit.s i¥(\'*(/.x prohibition the chief ipiesiion ni t!,.'!* election' I do not think so. .'577.")1. Was it a chief issue ! \ do not think so, certainly not in this district ami not in ^Vlberta district. 1 may say in icgard to that matter that in the northern portion of this disti'ict, in fact in the portion of the district referred to in the extract read hy the Judge this niornitig, and also refei'red to by the writer as being a district in which nine out of ten of the peoples were (b'inkcrs, a strong license man was elected. .■5770L'. AVas he elected on that issue/ — No, he was elected for the same reason that men are elected here. 3775.'5. Was it because the people were interested in the (juestion as tj whether a license law should be enacted or not ; or was it V)ecause they were tired of the peiuiit system ( — Tt was because the system as it had becMi carried out had made the law obsn- lete, so that the generality of the people, even those who had been in favour of proiiibi- tion, thouglit that if they could not have the law enforced, it would l)e nuich better tu have alicen.se system, by which they would obtain some revenue from the trade and ha\i' a certain amount of control over it. Ahthur Sifton. 394 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ^{77"il. I)i) yi'ii tliiiik it was mit a (Iccision in t'iivuiii' of licciisf (lyiiiii.Hl pruliiliitioii Imt (inr ill t'iivdur of iici'iisc ajiiiinst iiiifiit'iiiccd iiruliiliitiuii mid tlic pciiiiif system ? — Y.-s. .'177")."). Ilavi" ynu iitiuii wciiild have carried liy a ciuisideralile ma- jority, fii Assiiiiiioia the same result would ha\e hceii seen as in Saskatchewan, and in Aliierta tho vote would lia\c lieen tlu' other way. .'l77-") went tlirou;,'ii. .I|'I)i:k M('I><)NALI) re-read the extract from which lie had ipioted. .■i77oS. Would he not |irolial)ly he correct as to the people the writei' met when traveliiiij; > I think he was away out on that. 'Ml-'fU. Have you had any opjiortunily of kiiowiiij,' the opiidon of the people nf Assinihoia?- I lived tliere two years and a half and travelled \eiy generally tlirouj;ii the country on election canipaij;ns and similar matters. •■177 (|uite correct in Alberta, because you say that prohibition would not obtain a majority there and, therefore, such a man would piiiperly repres(>nt the district, and it is only when we come to speak of Sask.itehewan that the ditKculty oci-urs .'--There are two ditlerent members for .Saskali'hewan. •■{77()7. 1 ilo not want to take them individually, but take them as a class. iJoes I lie s.ime statement tliat ajiplies to Saskaichewan apply to Assiniboia also? — Yes. •'177()1^. You have stated that you think the only wiiy to make prohibition a siu'cess Would be to make it an offence to have liipior in possession '. Yes, nothing else would 7770. Do you know of any country in the world that has such a law ? — Yes, •i7771. Where? — In parts of Calif irnia. ■'i7772. Name them ? — I'asadena r.nd Riverside. •i777."{. Ts it an offence for a man to have licjuor in his jiossession there .'—Yes. •>7774. Do you know any other country .' — Not where I have had personal experience. •i777r). We has'e been told of one country where they have full pi'ohibition, and that is the Fiji Islands : have vou any knowledge in regard to prohibition there ? — Per- sonally I have not. 395 I 'i 1 1 f i llj li :.:i}li!'; li Km: m Licjuor TrtiHic — Xorlii-west Territories. .")777. ])() you concui' in what ho said ' -f liaxe not heard the evidence, hut T do most heartily. .'i77''^l). His e\i'l. I la\(' you personal knowledge of i'asadena and Hiversitle .' — 1 have more of Pasnilena than the other, my knowledge of Hiverside is chielly from hear.say. ■^'7f^'2. Are you able to say that no liipioi' is brought into that community? — No, 1 could not say so. .■<778.'{. Have yuu resided at Pasadena.' — Yes. \'\v practical purpo.«es there was prohiljition there. Tlierf wei'c three men who were in Riverside a day, and t'lt'V told me tliey could not get a diink in the lown for there %\as no liijuor for sale, liiverside h.is a population of 5,000. Jhj A'er. Dr. ifcLcod : :?77l^l. l>o you think that was an interfei-encc with the jx'i'sonal liberties of those men .' - ( )ne thought so, but the other two thought prohibition was t'arried out I'orrecth — in fact one was a man who had j)re\iously li\ed in the North-west Territories. The\- also said that if'pi'oliibition could be v.-orked that way in the Territories, they woukl be in favour of pi'ohib-ti'^n. Hi) Judge McDonald: .■?77J:*5. How laigc a place is I'asadena.' About 10,000 people. :>77S(). Ts the sunounding country settled '. Yes, thickly settled. •'"7787 Js it near a town .' -Yes, near IjOS Ange.is, which is ten miles awav. .■)77>'^. is there sale of li(|uor at Los Angelos ,' 'S'es, perfectly free. .■(778!). What is the neai-est point at whieh li(|uor can be obtained outside of Pasadena f — l^os Angelos 's probably the neai'e^t. .■177!H). You say it is ten miles away .' — Yes. ■■>77'.M. There are no restauiants or saloons nearer .' I do ui,* think there are, cer- taiidy not to any extent, and thei-e is communication every half Irio' witii Los Angelos. ■'{77'Jl!. -Did you, on the oecasion to winch you referi't'd when vou received informa- tion as to the transit' ■ of permits, make representation to the prosier ollicials when tlH>i otlences wei'" C'.nnnitted .' No. n>l Rrr. Dr. Mrl.rnd : .'<77ii'5. I >o you know whether tiie ])eopl(> of I'asadena. were unanimously in fa\oui of pi'ohibition, or were there some opjiosed to it .' —There was a small minority o|)]iosed to it, but probably moie than one-half of tiie people were in favour of it aiul the large pro perty owners were all in fa\ our of it. .'(771)1. Was it an interference with the p( I'sonal liberties of the people cif i'asadeiiM that they were not allowed to get drink .' It ^^•as not, because they could get it freel\ bv going outside the town. •■i77'.l5. Was it c|uite within the right of the peo])le of P.isadena to enact proliiljitinii for the town f — Yes. 377!)<>. Coming back to these Territories, did not you name some place where tli' people elected a candidate who was a prohibitionist while the majority of tli were anti-pi'ohibitionists ? Yes. ;i771)7. Ca i" 771)/. Can you account tor the people so forgetting thi'inse'ves as to eli'ct a prnln bitionist in that i)lac(!? -1 think it occurred for the reason that they were salistieil wiih the generul course of tontluctof our reprcsiMitiitive, who liad been our representative for sevei and lie had ■^atislied us in other matters. AUTIIII! SilTOX. .396 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 :i77ns. S]iciiUiiiL; iiliout .Mr. Pike"s stiiteniiMit almut iiiiii' out ut' t'li | pic in tlui district (Irinkiiijf, wliat lia\t' you to say al)out tliat ?— -It is absurd tor a man travelling tlirou,i,di tiu'fouutry and wlio does not know tlie jieoplc, to niako that L'tatenitMit, because ot' course, he would meet \ery little with the general run of the people. •"iTTDO. !)o you think that nine tentlis of the people lie met were driuklrii,' people / — I think so proljably. .'i7<*7>>0l.'. AVhat is the name of tliedistrict that sent a prohibit ionist representative! — Ivhnonton. .■?7)^03. C^an you, from your own knowl<>di;(% say tliat the majority of the people thei'e were in fa\()ur of license .' — Not from my i. n knowled}.'e, only from hearsay and the general tenor of records in regard to that part of tiie country. By Rci\ Dr. Mr hod: 37S04. Do you arrive at that estimate from the e.vperience of other people '.' -Yes, from many peoph;. By Jitdye McDomdd : .■<7S0"». You think the people voted for a candidate who would sui)poi't tht^ licenst^ law, because he was the man of their I'lioice in I'egard to other mattei's .' That is the c.xjilanalion I can give. ire. cer- ingelos. nfori'ia •\\ the:' n ta\oui ised to ,,'oe )irn '■isadi'iia it freelv ihibitioii a prolii led with alive foi' A. U()8S CUTHI'.EIIT recalled. .■i7'r. Dr.' Mc Lead: .'$7812. Were tlK'se twelve j)tM'sons conviet(>d ? -Tlic niajoi-ity were. Of the other cases the evidence was not surtieient to secure conviction, U'cause tlie j)ai'ties swore that they iiad not .sold li(|Uor. The cfises had to be dismissed on account of lack of evidenci'. Some cases were ippealed. some sustained and some <|uasiied. ■ \ iti- 1 ■ J(,)HN H. COSTKrAN, of Caigaiy, on l)eing duly swoi'n, deposed as follows : — By Judge McDonald : .'V/813. Do you hold any official position ? — I am Crown Prosecutor iov the Dominion Government for the district of Alljerta. .'{7811. How long have yon resided in the Tei'ritori(,>s ? Since the eivrly jiai't of the sununer of I88."{. ;?78ir). Have you l)een in Calgary all that time !- Yes. .■5781(). Then you liave seen the workii.^; of the jtermit system and also of the license system since it came int(» force. Speaking as a citi/eii, which is found to be tlir more satisfactory ,' -The license system, by all means. .'57817. What were the (litliculties connected with the permit or prohibitory sys- tem? — The jirineipal ditheulty was, I think, that popular sentiment was op])osed to it. as it was \ery dithcult to enforce, and it was very ditlieult to get information in order to institute prosecutions. .'57818. What had you to ilo with the law otHcially ?~-I had the jjrosecution of all cases rohibitory clauses of the North-west Act. ."5781!). ^^'hen the Xoi-th-west Mounted Police secui'ed a case they would call mi Vou as prosecuting counsel, I supj)ose ? Yes. .'^7'^'JO. Did you find that nuich smuggling went on during that ]iei'i(id? — Yes. .'57821. Were then' any illicit stills? Yes, .some three or four. .■?782'2. Were tlure any cases wliere per.s^tis used the permits fiiuidulently ? Yes, to a very great extent. .■5782."5. Was there more liipior snniggled in than was brought ia under the peniiii system proper l ' )nly a \v\y small percentage came in under permit, as permitted lii|U"r. .'57824. ^\'a^ a large ipiantity smuggleii in without permit .' — Yes. .'5782."). Had you anything to do with eases connected with the examination of packages in wliieh liquor was found : were you called ujion otHcially to deal with tliosi' eases? — 1 have had to cause examinations to be made and analy.ses to be madeof li(juoi-- in order to decide wlint they were. .'5782(1. Have you, in cases in which analyses wei'c- made, found (hat liipioi's were brouglit in under other names, whereas the liquors were really intoxicating litpiors?— -Yes. .'57827. Of what were those liquors coniposed ? — I have known liquids brought in marked Cologne which wwc practically alcohol. .'57828. Do you know anything about tiie sf)-called four per cent beer .system, aiul have you heard of spirituous liquors being bi ought in in barrels marked beer! — 1 have heard .so. .'5782'.). Did you tlnd that licpiors were sent in, contained in liarrels, addressed in ctmsignees, men from whose |)osition you would not suspect that they would obtain liiiuor ? —There were many instances of that. .'578.'50. Ami the yoods were never obtained by the persons to wliom tliey were sup j)oset' ilh tliox- (if luiuiii- ii's? — Yos. jroufjl't '" y-stem, iiii'l Idrcssctl I" lUl obtain weiv sup nuilH wt'iv (juantity of liquor, and tliey wc-'c not issued to dealers in litjuor, at all events up to a recent date. .My experience has been that li(|Uor was only granted in small (pian- tities, from two to five "gallons, and that smugjiling operations covei'ed •")(•, 7U and even 200 j,'allons of liipior. ;$7f<;fl. Have you had any experience of liquor brought across the boundary from the Unitetl States? — No. .'?7H.'<2. From your experience do you think a general ]prohibitory law would be practicable of tlu>rough enforcement in these Territories .' — I do not think so. I belie\e tiiat tlie sale of liquor could be proiiibited to a certain extent, but T do not think it would be advisable to do so. .■{7('<."5-'5. What has been your experience in regard to evidence given in liiiuor cases? — It has been very dilHcult to get proper evidence. .'<78;{4. Do you find that a large amount of perjury prevails in connection with cases of that kind, more so than in cases of .tny other kind? — I have never had to prosecute for perjury in cases of that kind, but I do know that it is very dillicult to obtain wit- nesses nho are prepared to say that they have seen liquor sold : as a matter of fact I have m} "elf known at the time that the witui'sses were a\\are of tiie truth of the charge. .■{7c'^-S5. Were those witnesses called sinqily because thev were pei'sons who saw the sale '?— Yes. :{7S.S(). They wei'e not persons who were drinking themselves ? — They might have been taking a glass tliemselves, but no charge was laid against them. .■578."?7. Y'^ou mean they weo simply spectators? — Yes, as regards tin' jiarticulai' • •rt'ence charged. For instance : A saloon-keeper is charged with selling liquor to John Smith. .John Brown may have been sitting in the room and may liave been a witness to the act of .selling, yet you j)rni)ably would not be able to get anything out of him in the sliape of evidence. His memory would be found to be remarkably defective. .'!78."iS. In case of the enactment of a general i)rohibitory law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, inqiortation and sale of alcoholic lii|Uors for beverage purposes, do you ti.ink it would be riglit that brewers and distillers should be conqiensated for their loss of jiiant.' — I should say so, at least for any ])lant they may have had on hand l)y reason of tiie (io\ernment's demands and which, probably, if thosed;Mnand'- iiad not i)een made, udilld not ha\t' been on the ]iremises. If a man goe nd estalilishes a legitimate trade and obeys the tiovernment's demands and fultils .ill the euiidit ions wliieli the (Jo\ern- inent inq>ost> and suddenly his i)usiness is abolished and his plant rendi red useless, 1 do not see why he should not be jiaiil for the injury done. •"i78.'V.t. it has been suggested that changes are maile in the iradi jioliey wliiel re- duee the \alue of stocks materially. ]s there not a ditlerence in regain lo the passage lit ,1 general proiiii)itory law and such taritl'ehanges .' Taiili'ehange woidd not be a dis- liniti\i' enactment which would stop a mail's business ?-F,xact ly. ;'7S40, Therefore, you think remuni'ration should be gi\eii him ?— lOxactly. •'^rsn. Are there any amendments to the license law wliicii you cituld suggest from your expeiience ? -I do not kno'v of any amendments. 1 think there sliouM lie some liro\ision made as to looking after the strict enfore(Miient of it. .\s it is at presi'iit its enforcement is conHned to one man, and he can h/udly be ('xjiected to look after all tin "ork himself. Saloons are not in .lie same jio^ition as hotels. •■)7S42. Taking tiie saloon bar and the iiotei bar: if one or the other hid !•• lie idiojisiied, which had better go I -I do not know. I know a great many men \\hi>\vuuld gn to iiotels, which afford niore facilities for drinking than saloons do. •")7''7(S14. It has been argued that as legards an hotel bar the ])ublic are going in and • Hit and that constantly aflbrils a certain measure of supervision which does not exist as legards the saloon f — Exactly. ■i7Sl."). In a saloon es'erything i.s more closed u])? — Yes, and they liaxc back doors by uhich a niiui may enter and not be seen going in or out. 399 ilii m 11 » ! :: iillf! Li(iiior Traffic — North-west Territories. Jli/ Rr,: Dr. MeUod: .■{7s K). I uiulcrHtaiid it wiis your 7J^17. l>id you know liijuor was sold illegally in Calgary i)efore tlu; lici'iisi system came into o])cration under the style of refrcshni'-nts ? Certainly. .■(7S1S. |)id you prosecute tlie parties ,' -Not until it was hroughl to my notice and an infoiination laid. .S7i^4y. A fui'mal cliarge was made and then you took diarize of the case? — Yes. .'?7S-")0. \\'ei-e there many cases of violation charged /-A great many. ;?7f<-")l. i suppose they were all prosecuted and then penalties were imposed ?---Yes. ^lost of the cases were appealed, liowever, 9'.) out of a 100. :)7>'-">-. What was the result .' A great many of the cases wcire (juashed. .■l7'"^-'>''i. I tiiink you have said that permits were issued for quantities varying from two to five gallons f -Two gallons was the rule. .■<7Sr)4. You nevei' saw permits issued for 20, iO and 60 gallons of whisky 1 — No. .•578.*).-). Norf(.r 10 gallons ?— No. .S7S.-)(). If a general proliihitory law were adopted, do you think benefit would result from it? — Outside of the (juestion of I'evenue I think it would he a benefit. ;i7857. Thei-e would then be the ((uestion of revenue? — Yes, that is an objection. >■; MILTON WILLTAM8, of Gleichen, farmer, on being duly sworn, deposed a lows : By Judge McDonald : .S78.58. You live in the District of Alberta, I believe ?- -Y. li78J)!). How long have you resided in the North-west Territories? — Ten and one-halt years. .'<78G0. Did you come from one of the other provinces? — Yes, from Ontario. .'{7861. Which County? -From Cardwell in the County of Crenville. .'57862. What year did you leave there?— In 1882. .'i786.'{. The license law was in force there? — Yes. Jii/ Ker. Dr. McLeod: ."57864. Your occupation is that of a farmer. I understaiul ? - Yes. ^786"). Do you know anything about, and if so will you state brietly your ol'>er\ai ion of, the permit system .' — I can only sjieak from hearsay. I have never had a |)ermit myself. r have known men who had permits. It was not at ail ditlicult togi't them. .'5786(). Have you been a farmcM' ever since you came to this part of the country I - Yes. .'57867. Idave you lived constantly in the same place? — No, not all the time. .'57868. In what other pait of the disti'ict have you lived? — T lived in the same di-'- trict all the time but not on the same farm. .'578()!t. Have you always open ted a fai ni yourself oi' ha\e yuu been employed liv some other farnu'r? I iiave been tMuployed by some otiier fanner. .■57870. How many years have you had a fai'm of your own? — Six year.s. .'57871. Have you had an opportunity of getting inside knowledge of the li(|Uni' business as it was carried on then? — Y'^es. •'57872. What opportunity had you? — My nearest neighbour was wh;it has liecn called here a whisky smuggler. John H. Costiuan. 400 57 Victoria- Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Ut He ;iii787r). I>id yt>u make a comj)laint ? — Yes, ;5787fi. Did he smuggle large ([uantities?- -Yes : sometimes large and sometimes small. •■)7S77. How large do you think, 50 or 100 gallons ? — An liigh ius 200. .■{787^. Where did he bring it from? — He brought it sometimes from across line and also from Manitoba, and di.<))f)sed of it in Calgary. 37879. Do you think the |)oli('e knew that he smuggled I- I think they did. .■?7880. !)() you know whether he continues it now ? He has given it up. .H7881. Did he give it up before the license law came into operation.' — Yes. was afraid of being caught. .■{788J. Did the introduction of the four per cent beer system in liS81(, interfere with his operations ? — No, I do not think it did. :{788.{. Do you know any other smugglers than that one man .' — Yes, I knew several more. IJ7884. Were they e(|ually skilful in escaping the police? Some were and some were not. .■?788r). D(» you know of any parties escaping because they tipped the police/ — ^I heard that in some cases they tipped the police. .■i788t). Have you reason to believe those statements?-- Yes. .■?7887. Was thei'e much drinking in the section in v/hich you lived?- No. .■)7888. If a pei-son wanted drink could lie get it? — No, not outside of the town y>// Judgp McDonald : 37889. Did the whisky smuggler tell you why he gave it up ? — Ht tired of it. 37890. Was he a disreputable man himself? — No, not as regards drinking 37891. Was he extravagant in his habits f — In some ways lie was. 37892. Did he not make money in the Viusiness / — No, not much. .")789."). Did you ever remonstrate with him about it? — Yes. 37894. What did he say ? -He said he was all right to do ,so so long as he caught. 3789.">. What kind of men were tin- others who were engaged in the I ( >stensibly they were farmers. .'>789(). Where did they sell theii' liquor?- In Calgary. ■">7897. Did they liriiig the lii[uors in by wagons? — Yes. •S7898. Was the railway used after it was built? Yes. 37899. in wh.it way was Iii|uiii' concealed? — IndifTerent ways : they would liavea small cask in a hai'ri'l of oats. Sometimes a keg of whisky would bt liarrel of beer. 37900. Was it exci' bi'ought in iii.Ked up with ginger beer or anything of lliat kind? I could not say. 37901. In vour part of the country the people were not given much to (IrJMkiiig? Xo. 37902. Was it a temperance community generally ? Yes. 37903. Was any of the licpior brought in by permit by these men '. Yes. 37904. Had tho.se men hiding places in which they would hide the liquor .' — Ye.s. Tile man neai- where T was liad a place on a neighboui''s farm many miles away and had .1 i-aelie on his own farm. By liev. Dr. McLeod : 37i)0r). Having lived ill this country a considerable time and having observed the iriliiii; it! the rural districts, have you any opinion about prohibition, as to whether it is piacticable or not? If .so, what are your views-? I think outside of Calgary, the senti- iiHiit of the people in the Territories would be in favour of prohibition. 401 21—26** was not lusiness? > laced placed msKli le of Uli li;. i:i|i r ft.., im .ill tii ^t Ijiquor Traffic — North-west Territories. .■$790<). Do you think it could he enforced J — Yes, with tlie lij^lit orticials. .'57907. Since the (juestion has hetsn asked otliei's, T should like to ask you the ques- tion : suppose ii ])rohil)itory lasv were enacted, would you tiiink it right that l)rewers and distillers should be compensated? — Yes, T think they should be, as the law re(|uired them to obtain and keep certain machinery. .S7yOS. Do you think the matter of compensation might go further and take in ]ieople in the trade who suffer loss? - 1 never thought of thai part of the ijuestion. A. ROSS CVTWBFAiT recalled. Bij Hei: Dr. McLeod : .'i790!). We have had it in evidence several times that when applications were made for jiermits the (Jovernor referi'ed them to Membei's of the fjcgislative Assembly and to members of the ^Mounted Police at IJegina. Was it customary to refer permits to police oflicei-s elsewhere! — During tlie last few years of the sy.stem the police, through their orticer.s, had complained that they were called upon very often to search places on sus- picion tiiat li(|U(tr was being di'ank illegally, and then upon examining tlu; li(iuor supply it was found to be covered by j)ermit. The system was then established, that in futui'e applications for permits and it had also been shown that bad use had been made of the permits~-were to be rt^ferrod to the officer commanding tlie district from which the ap- plication came. Latterly that was done. Ap])lications were sul)milted to the otHcers or othcer and he gave his opini(jn as to what use would be made of the liquor wluMi it came in by permit. ."57910. If he reported that it would be unwise to issue that permit, was his i-eport always acted on, or were permits sometimes issuertlii' less, the j)ermit w.-is granted and renewed in a few days, and the otlieer had repoi-ted that the liijuor was f(jr sale. ]hj Jiidge JfcDonaf'l : .'57911. Do you know whether, in the case you speak of, members of the Legislature joined in recommending the .applicant ! 1 do not know the i'eas(»n that thr permit was grante a successful conviction, no such neglect of duty of our nuMi ever ti'anspired. Tln! I)est proof of non-success at bribery by liquor reseiit wht>n the (;aiiteen is open (luring certain I'.jurs of the day, and he is, responsible for orderly behaviour of tho men and that no man drinks be(>r to excess. It in ,• be looked upon as c(»rtain that a man will) wishes to drink will do so if the iiqucv .in be had, and under the permit system it the most of, has ijeen removed. (iiven the possibility of obtaining liquor in these Territoiies and it is my experience, as it must be that of other ollicers in the force, that canteens j>i'operly ('onducted are a blessing to North-west Mounted Police posts. Were prohibititm unixersal, of course canteens in so far as the sale of malt liquors is concerned would be an unnece.s.sary evil, for their existence would become an evil. I hit under the penuit systeuj it was necessary, and more so undei' the license .system. 403 •)]— 26.^** E 1 i ■ :' ! Liquoi' Trattic — North-west Territoiies. I Iiave u''* t'ouml tlmt tlio sale nf Immu- in hiirraeks has increas<'d the miinljer of the men who di-ink it to any a|)(ireeial)le extent. And tliose who do not drink it benefit from the profits of its sale like those who do and to the same extent, these proKts being devoted to the messes pro rata. I have the honor to be, "gentlemen, Your obedient servant, A. KOSSCUTHBEirr. • Iiispivlar X. W. M. I'. CoiiiHKDiifini/ E. Drrlsioit^ ( 'n/i/ari/. 2 » (tEORGE marsh, of Calijary, real estate agent, on lieing duly sworn, dijiosed as follows : - Bi/ Judge McDonald: ;37913. How long have you resided in Calgary ? - Since September, 1883. 37914. Have you resided anywhere else in the Territories except hei'e ? - Yes, I was railway agent foi' the Canadian Pacific Railway from Wolseley to this point. .371)15. How large a district was that '? About 000 miles. .37910. Were you ti-a veiling agent ? Sometimes. 37917. Did you come here from ime of the otliei' provinces?--! came from the L'nited States to Canada. 37918. What part of the L'nited States ? -DiH'erent parts. I was a railway man. 37919. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law anywhere else than in the Territories ? No. .379l'0. Then you have seen the Territories under the permit sy.stem 1- Yes. 37921. Ami, since the 1st of May, they have been under license? — Y'es. 37922. AVhich is the piefeiable system / — The present .system. 37923. How ditl you find the permit system work : was there much liquoi' iii the country ?-~T))"re was (juite as mucli, if not more than there is now. .37924. You have spoken of having been a railway agent, and as such you would have a gi't^at deal to do with the cars that came in I — Y''es. 3792."). Have you reason to believe that licpior was brought in in freight car.s'?-- Yes. .37920. In what shape ?- In every conceivable way, in packages of merchandise, barrels of flour, sugar, oatmeal, boxes of coffee, barrels of salt and in every way. 37927. We liad the evidence of a witness at Prince Albert that liquor was brought in on the railway, contained in tinware made in the shape of boxes and marked so as to indicate that they were Bibles? I never saw them. I have known liquor to be con^ tained in five-gallon cans representing coal oil. •37928. AV'ere such packages seized? Scjmetimes. 37929. Do you think the greater part of the packages got through or were they seized?- That is pretty hard to .say ; I should say the greater part got through. At all events that is my opinion from wliat I heard. 379.30. Do you know anytl.ing about the use of pain-killer and .such compounds I T have never seen any of that seized and destroyed, although I have seen it drunk around town. 37931. What else ha\e you seen drunk ? — Red ink, also [)ain-killer, ginger, Florida water, all sorts o'' scents and eau de Cologne. 379.32. Were those used in different localities in the Territories? — In the town ot Calgary. 379.33. You have not .seen them drunk anywhere else? — Nb. 37934. When was that".'— In the winter of 1883 84. 379.35. We have been told tliat during the last two years liquor has been sold openly in this town ? — Yes. .37930. Was there no sale at the time red ink was used?— Yes. A. Ross CUTIIUKHT. 404 I :■ 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■{"'.••">7. How. tlieii, ciiii yciu iici-ouiit for the iiso of rod ink .' Whisky coulil l)e .seeurtul more or less iit that time ; soiiit'tiiiics there was ph'iity of it and at other times tliere was ahnost a famine. Wlien there was famine tlie men would use anythinj; they could get. .■J79.'^8. Do you know anything as to the price of li(|Uor in those days ! -Y'es. I have paid as high as .^1.00 for three drinks ; that was aliout the price. .Sometimes it would he as low as .")0 cents a drink, hut not lower than tiiat. ;t7i1.'{9. I suj)pos(' you are not a total ahstainer '.' No. .'57940. \rv you favourjible to i)rohibition .' \'es, pro\ided tliei'c was {)rohil)ition. ;57!*41. That is prohihition enforced ? — If the manufacture was stopped altogether. ."57942. l-)o you liope for a prohibitory law enforced '.' I should like to see it, but there would be too much time wasted at present in endeavouring to enforce it. ;5794.'5. Suppose such a law were passed, do you think it could be enforced ,' — Yes, if the manufacture could be stopped on the continent, but not otherwise. 37944. Do you mean the manufacture by distillers oi' anybody / Yes, anybody manufacturing. ."5794."). Do you hope to bring about that state of things '. — I ha\e not considered it much. .■57940. You do not consider that to be j)racticable. [ sujjpose .' — X(j, I Ihiidt it absui'd. .'57947. In case of the enactment of such a law, would you favour the payment of com- ]iensatioii to brewers and distillers for their loss of plant and machinery i — Y'es. .'57948. Are there any provisions of thelii-ense law that you, as a citizen, would amend ? -Jjft everybody sell liijuor who wants : but niake tliem pay a high license. ;(7949. Are you favourable to prohibiting sale on Sunday / N'o. .">79.*>0. Y'ou would let them sell / — Y'es. .')79.")]. What about selling all night? — I would let them sell all night. .')7!ir>L.'. Would you have them sell to drunken men J- When men get as l)a(l ,is ail ihal give them the ("iold Cure. ■')79-").'5. liut in the mean time you would let them sell, so long as they wei'e able to pay .' — Yes. .'579iJ4. So, altliMUgh you favour j)rohibition in the abstract, you (lo not fa\(iur a small mciusure of prohibition in the shajie of houi's or jieople '--No. I would of cour.se jiroliibit selling to minors. A man who does that should be pui:iit of wherever they have the license system. .'579.")7. Let the communities that have this license systi institutions ?- Y^'s. •">79.").'s. Would your favour the separation of the sale of groceries from the s.de of lii|Unr .' — Y'es. .')79.")9. Which, in your ojiinion, is the more harmful, the hotel bar oi- the saloon li'ii'; if one or the other had to be done away with, which would it be bet ter to dispense with !- I liave not given that matter any consideration, but I do not see that there \Mi\ild be much dirt'erenco. •">79r)0. Have you reason to lieiieve that there is any illicit s.ilc in Calgary sale liy I'l icfs that have no licenses? — i have no possible means of knowing tha!. nkard you thiid< there is the municipal machinery 1 in force maintain those iiMI ! 1 I /I;/ A'rr. D,: McLmd : • ')79(>1. Providr'd the (!old Cure institutions were established by the municipality, would you also havo the munici])ality provide for the families of those inebriates vvhc Were undergoing the (Sold Cure pi'ocess .' — [ do not think that is a fair (|iiestiiin. ' »f eiiuise if a man misconducts himself oi- abuses his family, the members of his family or his friends, should have him jilact^d in such an institution, or he should be brought before a .lust ice. • '79(iL'. Have vou noticed if the license system works well here? — Y'e.s, 40.5 i !!-' ll m '■ Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territoiies. .'t7i}().'5. Does it work well or not?— I tliiiik it work.s well here, as well ns in Toronto- or anywhere else. 37904. How is it observed here ? — In Calfjary you lan jjet li(|Uor ainuist any iiour of the (lay or nij;ht, that is to say after hours, as in fact you can do in Toronto. That is my experience of Inith places. ;37'J(>o. So licens(! does not particularly regulate the trade? — No, 1 do not believe it does. One thiiif^ in re<,'ard to Calvary's position is that you can f;ct better li(|Uor now. t'{79()(). Do you know whetlier men holding licenses sell adulterated liijuor or not .' -They possibly may do so, but I do not know. 1 know the liquor has l)een better since the liconsi- system came into force, and that some men were jiretty nearly poisoned by drinking adultei'ated iiijuoi' before this. .■17"Jt>7. You have leferied to people drinking red ink ? -Th(!y would make it into .i .solution of some kind mixed with water and other ingredients. .'i71)()H. You tiiink at the present time it is not necessary to resort to led ink ! No, there is alcohol. .'{79()!(. Tho.se compounds to which you have referred, were taken f(tr the small percentage of alcohol in them, I suppose? — Yes. .'37970. Did you ever notice whether men began to drink on red ink or pain-killer, or were those liipiids confined to men who had become addicted to the habit of drinking .' I have seen young men in the town who probably never drank 10 gla.sses of whisky in theii- lives take a di'ink of red ink. .■?7971. \\'li;it effect has the red ink r)n the men? — 1 have never .seen enough sb'unk to be able to tell. T never tasted it. .'17971.'. It was not a general tipple, I suppose?- — No. .■{7973. Still the (lercentage of alcohol in it is not vei'v great, and if there had noi been other deleterious substances in it the liquid would n. Was that red ink w/iich they took similar to that with which you yourself write?- They took tin-ee bottles out of my own otlice. .37970). Have energetic etl'orts been made to prevent lii|Uor being brought in and also to prevent illicit sales '. — Y'es. .37!I77. J>ipyi'U think the police constables were as vigilant as they might lia\i' been ill their attempts xo prevent illicit sale ?^ I do not know. .'i797S. ^^'ilat is your reason for holding that opinion ? — This : thei'e was bribery. Y'^ou could buy up, J should .say, a great many constables on town duty. There were ai'rangements made with saloon and hotel-keejiers in this town for one dollar a gallon, by which the constables would allow a numl)er of illicit packages to come in witlmui seizing them and destroying the li(|Uc(r. In another case 10 or L'O gallons would coinr in from th(! east under permit and would be dealt with in this way. Instead of tlii' permit being cancelled at the station they wt)uld let the permit and the whisky ImiIIi go ; by letting the permit go, the persons would be able to get lots of li(]uor in. That lia> been done in several instances. I was offered .S.")00 to let in a numl)er of barrels cit whisky which had been left on the cars. .37979. Where were you agent at that time I At tiiis place. .37980. That attem])t was. of course, not successful? — It was not. .■i7981. Do you think the system, as it was in operation, was properly called a pm liil)ition system? — I do not. I think the attemjit at prohibition was a farce. .37982. Do you think that the attenii)t to caiiy out a prohibitory .system in tin Territories might be considered a fair test of the prohibitory law? — If you look at tlu' questi n the way 1 do, you might put 10,000 soldieis round Calgary and you would not be alile to keep whisky from coming in. There? would still be a way to bring it in. 3798.3. rnderground ? — Y'es. (JKOIifiK M.MiSll. 406 ^\' 67 Victoria Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'57984. Ho you think tliiit iiiidor iiiiy circumstiiiu'cs wliisky raiinot Ix- kfpt init ! — 1 do not h(^lie\(! it can, iiiul I have; had a very ;,'(kkI opportuiiily nt' sct'iuf; it. It was brouf^ht tlirou^h tlm niouiitaiii passes, ft was l)n>ii;{lit u[) from MontHiia and it was bi'ouglit iiy scores of different ways. .'{TDH"). You tliink it would he a good thing if it ecjuhl all Ite kept mit, I supjxise?-- Yes, l)ut you would have to prohibit the manufacture. /{i/ ,/iiifiji' JfcDiuiii/d : .'{"lilSG. On the continent f V'es, on the continent. .'57987. Hut you would wish prohil)ition to extend all o\ertlie world f Yes, that would be better, but still people would try to manufacture !iv ay Company would nut send red ink to the otHcers : was it becau.se it was (h-unk tluu'e /-They were afraid to send it. Some of the old otticials of the Company will tell you so. By Jndije McDontdd : .'5799'2. Did you know the police officer who got .*! a gallon for lii|Unr that he allowed to come in? I was picsent at the sheds when a man got )?25 for allowing 25 gallons to come in. ;5799.'5. Was he a police otlicer? He was a constable. ;i7994. Did you report him .' That was after f left the Mail way Company. .'5799.'). You were still a citizen of coui'se.'- Yes. .'5799(5. And you allowed that man to remain on the police forn' .' It was none of my business. ■'57997. Was that during the time of the trouble / Yes, it was during the time of the rebellion, when whisky was worth from )^25 to .$.'50 a gallon. ■'57998. What were you ofl'ered ? !?r)00 for eight liarrels of oatmeal and four nf sugar. ;57999. Thos(! barrels had li(|Uor in them, I supi>os(' ,' - Yes. They wei'c address I to the consignee. .'58000. What became of them .'-They were ultimately destroyed by the otficers. The Canadian Pacific Railway detectives sat u]i with them. The Canaiit'H.' Yen. I^'iiIitm in \\'iinii|ii'i; s|iip|M'(i tiicni in tlial wiiv. .'(HOl.'t. Tiu'ii tln'V iiiul cdint' t'nini w linlfsiilc (icjiiiTs not tVoin sti^'.ir iftincrs ( Yen. I sliijulii say tiiiit pi'oliiliition tlu-n- imd ii tcmifnoy to lirtM'tl i-riiiiiiiiils, //// U>r. Dr. Mi'.Li'uif : • i'^^llll. l>o you mean as to |ii'oiiil)it ion or as to tli<- wliisky ^ It is tlic\vliisii')'(i liy |)i'oiii'iiition tiiat lirciil niininals. I'ATltICK .r. NOl.AN, .111., of Calgui-y, bai ristn-, on Ijcin^ follows :-- duly sworn, deposed us Bi/ Jiidfji' McDoiiiilil : ."iSOl"). How lon;i lia\(' you ii\t' in tlu' Territories ,' Tlii'ee years. .'JHOlll. Where did you ectnie from to tlie 'I'erritories '.- Krom < Mitario. .'JStdT. I laM' you had any e.\))erienee of th; '. I do. I am only si 'akinL' of the town and neif:;hl)oui'hood of Calj^ai'V. My e.\])erience is, as I h;i>.,- slated, ui lei the jiermit .system as well as under the licensi! system, and whateNcr di'inkirij; is done now is optMi for everyone to see, whereas, before jirohahly there was a lot done in .secret. MSUlM. Do you know anytliinj; of the character of the li(|Uor.sold .' Where there is so much competition, necessarily the liiiuor is good, because there are so many places in whi<'h you can get it. (Jn one occasion I e<)unted 'M\ places when" it could lie got before the license law I'ame into force. .'{SOi'i.'. What kind oF compounds wei'c sold in those jilace.s >.- Probably whisky, and some was pretty poor whisky. ■!S(J2;V Did you use red ink? Not in my time. Those are stories always tolurli a iiiiiii wmilil lif icninNt'd tn ii liiick i'(H)iii or tiikcM ujistuii'.s iiiid |>ut to lird jind l<)-|it out of tlic way uiilil lie wiis ulilc to tiik*' cure of liiinscit'. Tlii.s will iiccoimt tnr tlii' disfi-cpaiicv to soiiif i-xtfiit, Itil /I'rr. /),: Mrl.r„.l ■ .■|SO'J!». >'ou Miy you jinivfd Ihmc mi |S,s',». At that tiiin' tin' t'oiir pri- ifiit Im-it |ionnits wtTc lieiiig ;;riiht»'d, I lieiievc f A'fs. ;IHO.'<0, So you (lifl not ul' ici'vc the condition of tilings prior to tlint diitcf No, (•\i'i'ytliiii>i at tliat lime was four per (•■nl. .'{HtJ.'tl. l>o you regard tliat >yNlrni as a |iroliiliitury systcni at ail ; It was to a ccr- tuin class, .■{MO;}!'. 'i"o what class I — Men who could not all'ord to Ituy lariic i|uantitics and who could not <^i'X {X'l'inits. .'JHO.'l.'t. Is it a fact thai tiic permits were had liy persons who were not of a very intcllif^'cnt class '. They must ha\c liccu liivcn tujicrsons of that class, althouiih a ;;rcat luaiiy found it dillicult to places to which the Corporation issued licenses for a feeof.*IO() to sell non intoxicatiiiy lii|Uors. luit it was inidei-.stood iiy evei'yl»od\' that they sold intoxicating; drinks. .'i80."?"). Do you thiid< the town authorities knew that.' If they did not know tiuit they were very hlind. .'iHU:'>(l. Did the town authorities interfere with them.' Not that I .saw. •'iSO.'tT. l)o you know whetiier the town authorities utulei' cover of makini.' ])ro\ ision fill' the sale of temperance liexcrajfes really favoured the ,salu of intoxii'ants .' It seemed to nu^ that the town police were hlackmailinj; those people to a certain extent. I am sjicakini; aliout the man l>rout;lit from Iteyina and who went from one place to another and |>rocurcd (|uile ,i lot nf evidence of sellin:;. lie was afterwards prosecuted foi- lierjlMT. .■iStj.'i.s! W,is he coinicted.' No. 1 Ic mi;.'ht ha\ (■ heen deaU with hy the moimted |iulice. At all events he ,t;ot si.x months' imprisomnent for lilackmailinu. .■iS(j;i<). Was he acting in the characier of a detectixc .' Me did not turn out to he much of a detiH'tive. .'{HUKJ. ^^'ere his actions in the dinction of detect ive wurk ; was there any ri'ijular system of woikinji?- No. We had a Ijoom in whisky selling and there were lis or 1!) cases in tiie police court. Iljl Jiiihii' Mi-Dditnlil : .■{S041. hid he hope to 1"' aWIe to lilarkuiail the restaurant-keepers .' Yes. .'iSOll'. Was he j;iiin" get anything else, except at a store. Jiy Jiev. Dr. McLeod: ■'5805:5. Thei'e is some prohil)itiun at present in tiie license system, I believe ! — T think the .system is about the best on(> we can have. By Juihje McDonald : '?tf-(jo\. Did the public, as a general rule, know tiiat the system of selling iiciuid retVeshments was only a cloak 1 — I am sure they did. .'58055. Witli the oijject, of coui'se, of increasing the re\enue of the municipality ? — Yes. The license system has increased it also to a certain extent, as there were only 15 or 1() places paying a license of 8100, there are now 9 or 10 places paying a .*200 license each. &. II hi The names of Sheriff King, L. S. Baden, Amos Howe, \V. Pierce anil Inspectoj- Snider were called and the parties did not answer, the two last named being reported a^j out of town. Jl'DCE JlrDONALD. The Commissioners undei'stand that neithei- Mi-. Kribbsnor Mr. SjM'nce wishes to call any further witnesses. Mii. SPENCE. — 1 do not think it is necessary. Mi{. KHIHS. — I do not think it is necessary. JlHXiK McDonald. — in view of the statements of Mr. Spenceaad Mr'. Kriblis, and the fact that the otHcial list of witnesses has been railed .several times, and all whohuM' responded have been examined, the Commissionei-s do n<.t think it necessary to cuntinui' the s'tting toinonuw, and therefore the Conunission now stands adjournetl. Tl -! Conunission adjourned, to nieei ai Eurt .Macleod. Illi'i' IP 1 fi m \h\\ PaTHUK .1. Nol.AV. 410 m 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 FORT MACLEOD, Noven.bpi- ;1, 1892. Tlic Royal Coniniissioii mi tlic Ijicnioi- Traffic met liero tiiis diiy. I'mneiit : JuDCE McDoxAMx Rkv. ])i!. McLkod. WILLIAM COX ALLEN. .M.l)., of Fort Macleorl, Colk-etor of Customs iuid Collector of Iiiliiiid Revenue, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Judge McDonald : •'58050. How many years have you resided here? — -I have been her(> more tiian six years. .■58057. Was tlie permit system in force when you came here? — It was. .■58058. Since 1st of May the Territories iiave be(;n under a license .system ? — Yes. .'58051). Has any liquor come in since then in bond, or been imjiorted? Yes. •■580G0. Can you tell the Commissionei's how much? -I was looking at the amount of money I received for (hity on li(|uor, and I noticed tli' amount was .•?1,100, oi- .■?1,000 Inland Revenue and .S400 Customs. ;580()1. Whii.t is the rate of duty ?— .-^lM :i.^ per ,!.'aliiMi Customs and .*!. 50 per gallon Inland Revenue. .'580(i2. On wiiat kind of liipior was the duty collected / -On difterent kinds, mi whisky particulai'ly. .■5fcOt).'5. Was li(|uor brought in illicitly to this country befoi-e the iiccnse s\steni i-aiiie into foi'ce i 1 am sure of it. .'5S0()4. \\'as there smuggling to anv extent? -Yes, to a large extent. ;580l)5. From where ? — From Montana, United .StatPs. .'iSOtJO. Was that the [irincipal point for this section of the country I Yes. ."i80('>7. Have you any knowledge of the i{uality of li(|Uor that was brought in whether it was g(jo(l or bad ? 1 am told that it was \ery poor. 380t)8. Was it alcoholic liipioroi' ale f — Generally alcoholic liijuors, or pure alcohol. J800'.). Have you reason to believe that the Xoi'th-west Mounted Police were \ igi- lant in trying to prevent .smuggling? -Yes. ;5St)70. \\'ere they faithful in discharging their dtities ? — Yes : they c.ime under my notice \ery nuuii. They made a great many seizures which they handed over to me, and they were very careful in carrying out their duties. •'i8()71. Fi'om your experience in this country do you think it wduld be praciiciible til enforce a prohibitory law ? — I do not. .'58071.'. Which, in your opinion, is the preferable system : the present one i ;• the permit system ? — The pi'esent system, decidedlv, so f.ir as we are concerned. •'i807-'5. You mean the people in this section .' - Yes. •'l.'^<.)7 1. Has there lieen an inci'ease in di'unkenness since the license law came into operation ? -I cannot perceive it : I cannot perceive any niati'rial changtvs at all. ")S075. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law. a law to prohibit die manufacture, im|iortation and sale of alcoholic liipiois for lH\erage purposes, do you think brewers and distillers should receive com]ii'nsation for their loss of plant and machinery .' — That is a matter on wliirh I cannot gi\'e an opinion. •'!''^07l). Have ymi given it any thought .'I tind that some people are for and some against it. I think that if \ exjiressed my own person. 1 view, it would lie no. •'5>'077. It has been urged that the law re( pi ires distil lei's to provide cei^ain machinei'v and to keep the liipior for two vears foi- purposes of rectification and, tin refore, it is 411 1 i- ! ' )■ Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. uri,'etl tliiit if their business was destroyed tiiey siiould l)e reiuunerated. You think they should not receive reniunenition 'I — I do not. Jh/ Rev. Dr. McLmd : ."58078. So tliero was a j^reat deal of sniu<;,i;ling jjrior to 1st of May last ? — Yes. ;{8079. Do you know if smuggling has continued since that time ?--Xn. 38080. You think there has been none ? — I do not think theie has been any smug- gling at all. .'SSOSl. xVre the police as vigilant now as they were before to prevent smuggling? — ] think they are. They have to protect the Customs now, and L-onse(|uently I am thrown amongst them a good deal, and I think they are e.Ktremely vigilant in every jiarticular. .38082. Do you regard the old system as j>rohil)ition in any sen.se? — I do not, I iHciy say that J do not think it jxissible to carry out such a law here because of our extensive Ixjrder. .■t8()8:i. You are pecniliarly situated hei-o f— Yes. .'58084. hut the (juestion I desire to ask you is this : |)o you regard the old system as one of prohibition or as one of permission ?~ I think it was a system of permission. .■}808"). .Speaking of a general prohibitory law for tlie country at large, do you think till' prohibition of liipu>r, that is its manufacture and sale, is desirable in the interests of th<' coun'iT .' I do, pi'ovided it could be eilectually cari'ied out. .■58080. IJeing jicculiarly situated here, the diHiculty of enforcement comes very closely under your observation? -Of course, I can speak not only of here, l)ut of down east, where I occupied a jniblic position for sonu^ years. In Ontario we were just across the boundai-y, ami there was a great deal of smuggling going on. T was a strong .'idvo- cate of the .Scott Act, but after it had been tried T w;is not. .'5SU87. The Local Option Law of course only restricted the sale, not the uuinu- facture? — Exactly. lUj .finhji' Mi'Ddiiidd : .'5808S. Taking the cctuntry as you know it. not only tiiis ])art liut the I'ast, and taking into account the boundary line and our water connuunications do vou think it W( )uld 1 )c pr.ictii'able to en force a proliil)itoiv law for the whole countiy .' 7 do not. Ki;v. DONALD HILT(»N. of Fori Maeleod.^'Cleik duly sworn, (le])osed as follows : ■ Bji Jiidiir McDiiiKild : :5808'.). With what C lb l\ Older- on heuiL •li are you connected ? With the C'liurch of Kngiami. i80!H). How long iia\f vou resided in Macleod .' — Seven vears. 380'.) I. How Ion :580I)1'. Then vou have have vou res ided in the Teri'itori observed the working o; tiie former system called tlie jn "lM)Ui'teen \-e.ir.- II. l)iti. permit system, and tlie working ot the license system siiu vv the 1st of 3Iav. which do you think is the more ilesirable .system .' — I think the license .system is more desirable. ^.'^OitM. Have you reason to believe that th, : .' was iiiiich illieit iiii|inrt,it ion of lii|Uov under the old system ? 1 ha\i'. .■58()'.l|. Have vou aiiv Doses, ai tidi cnnwledge whether eoiiipoiiiids were used t.Ji iC p es sucli as pain killer, eau de Cologne, and liiiuids of that kind ,' I ha\e no personal knowledge of it, but it was commonly repoi'ted that such was the case. .'580'.l."). Ilaveyiai iii.iiiy people coming here fiom the old eoiiiit lies. Midi as Lngland ' -We 1 lave a grciil many. WlU.l.VM Cox Al.I.KN. t hey people ot w lioiii the I; irLii'st proportion jire total ,distaiiiei> 412 II 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ;$8097. Are thi'V people who use intoxicatinj^ beverages in moderation ! I think the majority of tlie people use them in nutdei'ation. ;i80y8. Do you think that jieople 0(jminji here from the mother country, and from (rermany and France and otiiei' countries, who have lieen accustomed to partake of li<|uors in moderation, would consider the entire prohibition of alcoholic beverages a (h'awback? — I. think not. 38099. Are you a prohibitionist in principle? — T am, if it could be carried out. ."58100. Do you think it could be carried out? — I think not. 38101. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, would you deem it right that brewers and distillei's should I'eceive compensation for tiieir loss of plant and —achinery ',' — That is a iiuestion 1 have never considered. By Pur. Dr. Me Lead : 3S10:i. Why do you think tlie license sy.ste)n is moiv desirable than the permit or prohibition system .' iiecause under the prohibition system there was a lot of illicit drinking, and the license .system has done away with all that. Even in a small community like this 1") or 18 saloons were selling illicitly. A.s to the consumption of lit|Uor, I do not know whether it is more or less. The liquors I believe are pure and less injurious physically. 381(33. Were no attem))ts made to close those illicit |)lacf>s .' Certainly. .38104. With success? Owing to tech'iicalities it was found impossil)le to tin so. 38105. Did they carry on Ijusiness openly ? — So far as I understand, they did so iipenly. .38106. You have expressed yourself as being favoui'able to firohibition if it could be carried out, but vou liave expressed an opiniss in any cnnununity bring distress on themselves ami their families : but 1 do not thiid<, from my experience, that iiinderate drinking, in any way, brings distress on families. 381 14. Have you observed whether nifulerate drinking has a temlency in any degree. (1 to excessive (lriid\ii I perieixt' it is the tirst step to excessisc driid\ing. "I'^ll."). Ynur objection to prnhibiiiori is that it is impracticable? Yes. 3SI1(). l)oy'>u iielieve in th(> princijile of prohibition, if it could be carried out^? — Ccitainly. I think the introduction of the license system has materially damaged the lialf-breed jinpidatiun nf the community. 3S117. Ha\eyou ! ndians here ? Yes, I ndians and Half-breeds. •381 IS. Have you noticed whether the Indians are moi-e endangered under license 'lian they wert^ under the old system?-- I think tliere^ is more danger to them under the lircscDt license system. •3S110. You agree with the Indian Connnissioner and police oHicers, wlio say they lin\c to take extra ju'ecaulions to jirotect the Indians against the li(juor trade .' - Yes. 413 11 Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. I', III Ill' liiii m .7<»SEPH H. WRIGLEY, of Fort Macleod, iulvocate, on being duly sworn, deposed a., follows : — Bi/ Judye McDonald: .■?f<120. How lonf{ have you resided here? — Actually in Maeleod since 1st July. ;{8121. Where did you reside before that ? — In Lethbridge. .■'v Dr. MrUod: .'58156. You say you belie\'e the licens> -ystem preferable to the so-called prohibi- tive system ? — Yes. •■>81.")7. Do you think the license sy.,tem pi'eferiible to prohibit inn fairly well iMifor- iril ! \i you could enforce prohibition, it woidd be the better system. ^58158, So your objection to jiiohibition is not to the prii)"inle, but because in your I'pinion it is impracticable? Because of its iiupractii'ability and because of tlie indiffer- ence of the [leojile. .'SSI.")*.). Speaking of the j)olice force, we had it in evidence that p()li<'e eunsliibles, \^llo received veiy small ]iay, were sulijected to \ im'V serious tem]itat ions in the way of ti|isfrom smugglers and other illicit dealers, and in that way they winked at the illicit trade. Have you observed whether anything of that kind has oecm'red down this way? Not ]iersonally. T have no knowledge of it. It was ri'ported here that on one occasion a ciiiistable had taken something i'l'om the hotel-ke«?per here. Hut .as to prexenting liipior being brought in, it was most difficult to get convictions against any man for bringing it 111 anil \ery dillicult to get convictions for selling it. •'581()0. Was that owing to the unwillingness of witnesses to testify? — Yes, and tlieie seemed to l)e a desire not to punish any one for selling. 415 ■\ m. !!■• ,1 - 11 Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. ."JSUJl. Were the witnesses for the most jmrt men who liad purcluisetl li(|UOi' at those places ? -Yes, mostly. .'{81(52. Would you rejiai'd their unwillinuness to testify against sellers due to the fact that they had been pai'ties to the breaking of the law? — No, I attiibute it to theic repugnance to have the man convicted for selling lii(uor which they wanted, .'$81().'5. Anil they were unwilling to have the men punished for violating a law to which they wei'e themselves a party ] — Yes ; and yet hundreds of tlio.se people would vote for prohibition. If the law was adopted and placed on the statute-book, they would not assist in enfoi'cing it. .■{8164. Have you had any experience of the 8cott Act at any time?— Yes, in the adjoining counties of Simcoe and Dufl'erin ; it was carried by large majorities and repealed later on by as large majorities. In oui' county the Scott Act was submitted, but was not carried. :{81G.'). Have you observed whether the license law, which you have oljserved in Ontario and elsewhere, is really ivstrictive to the trade and does it regulate it ?— Y''es, in t\w particular locality where I lived, it certainly did so. .■5816(). Whcie was that ? — In Hoi ton near Toronto. .■{8107. How many licenses are there here? — Two. ;{81G8. Do you know whether there is sale after houi's and on Sunday? — 1 do not know, but in my opinion there is. .S8169. Are there any other places selling ! — No. ."581 70. Have you heard of any ? — No. By Judge McDonald : :{8171. You spoke of an occasion on which thei'e had been a rumour that a saloon- keeper had tampered with a member of the force. Do you mean that there were saloon- keepers then in this town? — ^There were ii great number befort; the license system canu* into operation. 38172. How many ! — Six or ten. .{8 17^5. Places where li(]Uor was sold illicitly? — Yes. .'58174. And openly? — Yes. Jhj Riv. Dr MrLeud: ;?817r). Do you regard the old system as one of prohibition or permission ?— It was no pel-mission to sell, only permission to drink. .■$81 7<). There was no one selling? — Not to any great extent. ;{8177. Was any effort made to prevent them selling? — Not during my time. 1 believe a strong attempt was made aliout two years before the license system came into force. VH i'ii Hon. .IAMKS FARQUHARSO.V McLKOD. of Fort ^fa.leod, Justice of the Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: — By Judge Mcl)iiii(dd : 38178. How long have you resided in the Territories ?— Since 1874. .■{8179, How long have you been at Macleorl ? — Since then. TIk; head ipiarters of the force I commanded was at one time at Cypress Hills, I have made my residenci' here since. 38180. You were in the N'orth-west Mounted Police and in coinuiand, I believe? — Yes. 38181, How long did you till the position of commander ? — From .July, 1870, to November, 188',). .'18182. Who succeeded you ? — Col. Irvine. HoHKliT KVANS. 416 h 'I mW' 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iJ^ilS.i. Ildw Idiii; liiixc you Ik'cii fi .Justice of the Hupreini- Court of tlic Xoitliwest Tei'ritorics ? — l'^)!' live yciirs. .'iSlSt. AN'liilc Jill ollicer of tlit^ force were you stationed at iviiy otiicr ])l;ici' tliaii Cypress I lills aiul licre ( — My licadtjuai'tcrs were liere, except for tiie short time 1 was at Clypicss Hills. ;isis."). In tlie disdiar^e of your tiuties, did you travel ahout ? — Yes. .■)8lS(i. The Mounted Police was charji^ed with the enforcement of the ])roliil)itory enactment, I ijelieve ? — Certainly. I came here first as Assistant Conunissioner of tlie force ; T «as the first otticer who came here with the force. .'5N1S7. Were diliiculties i^xjierienced in enforcinj^ that proliihitory law ? — At first there were no dilliculties at all. W'iien we first came here there was \-ery lit tie li(|iior soltl, and th(^ idea was to stop the tratlic with the Indians and cliililren. .SSlcSiS. Was there no white poj)ulation to speak of? — -No, none whatever. We came in ()ctoher, 11^7 I, and hefoic that time I l)eliev(( there was a great deal of drinkim; anion!.' the Fnilians. In that year, knowing that we were coming here, the traders had not brought in any linuoi' to sell. However, \v(^ had an opportuinty of making an example in two or three eases, and for some time afterwards there was nothing of the kinrl taking place and we stop])ed the trade entirely. ;iSlSi). What was the condition of things suhse(|Uently '!- • 8ul)se(|uently people came in and li((Uor was hrought in, and we had more troul)le. ;581UO. As the population increased, what was the effect '! — It was very diflicult to catch those people who brought it in. ."iSllll. In what way was it brought in ? --In e\ery way. liSl'.t'J. Was it brought across the boundary line'/- Yes; that was the only way that it could be brought in then. ."iSl',)."!. Had you any ex])erience of bringing in li([Uor when the railway wasojiened, or were you not connectevices were resorted to as means to snniggle in li(|Uor? — Y'es. The difliculty was to obtain evidence to pro\-e the cases. .'is 1911. What was your experience in I'egard to the manner in which witnesses gave tc^timonv in those cases? -ft was \ery bad, and in many cases perjury was connnitted. .'{SllOO. Since the lirst of .Mav von lia\(> had a license system in force liere, I believe? —Yes. .'{SiiOl. Speaking as a citizen and from your expeiience, \\hich do you think pretV'r- alilc, the old system oi' the; ])resont one? The pri'stjnt .system. ;i"^"J(Jl.'. Do you considei" that a jirohibitory law could be well enf'oiied in these Ter- litories? -li'rom my experience it could not. We ne\ei', however, had a prohibitory system in force here, it was i-eally a license system. ."tS'JO;?. It was a permit system, \ believe ' — Yes. :!'Sl'01. We have been informed that in addition to the huge (piantities brought in liy permit, there were also large <|uaritities brought in illicitly? — Yes. ;?Sl'(»."). Then there was trouble in both ways?— Y'es. •")Sl'()('). i'^rom (piantities of li(pn)r bi'ing bi-ought iti under- p(>ii'iit ,ind (|uantilies lii'ing smuggled in \arious disguises? -Yes. .'fSL'07. Speaking as a jurist, what is your view of haxingalaw on the statute- hiKiks what is persistently and flagrantly \iolated : is the ell'cct good or bad '. — I should diiuk it was bad. 1 know that my conscience has been dreadfully shocked at the way mill hiuc s',inetiines deliberately sworn to what I knew was untrue. 1 will gi\e an in- i' I 417 ii= 21--27** i J ':fi- ir I rn :^ Liquor Trullic — North-west Tcnitories. stiiiiw of wlijit of times liappcns wjien F was trying tiiose eases. I asked a man who iiad uomplaiiicd of lieiiigstniek on tlie liead, if lie liad Ix-eii di'iiiking whisky. Me said, " I do not know wliat it was." I asked, " \\'as it hi|Uor.'" lie replied, " I do not know." I asked him if it was into.\ieating, he saitl : " I do not know that it was." I asked }iim if he had drunk etiough to into.vieate him, — for I tried to get iiim to state whether it was into.xieating liijuor or not that he had taken. He replied, ''1 cannot say that." Ca.ses of that kind are constantly ai'ising. Of course the prosecution had to show that the liquor was intoxicating before I could fine the party. ;{S"J()S. Have yon any knowledge wliether other compoumLs were used in lieu of ordinai-y ii(|uor? -1 have heeii told of a number of conqxnintls being used, such as bay rum, paiii-kilh^' and sevei'al others. Then thera was some kind of beer, hop beer, used, which was altout tin- worst of all. ;iiS20!). Have you considered the (|Ut!stio!i of granting remuneration to brewei's and n the (|uestion, and it is a veiy ditlicult matter to arrive at an oj)inion on it. .'5S210. it has l)een advocated that the law recjuires certain machin(!ry and fittings and that these have to be changed from time to time in accorilance with departmental regulations, and, moreftvei', it is necessary, under the law, to keep the li(juorfor a certain nund)er of years for rectification purjxises. If such a law were enacted, do you think l)rewers and distillers should be compensated ?— The whole (|Uestion has been debated in Parliament in the o\d country, and I repeat, it is a (juestion on which it is very difficult to arrive at an o))iiiion. I do not think my opinion would amount to anything. /i>/ Rev. Dr. Mr Lend : ."{821 1. Speaking of perjury that arises in those cases : D(j you consider the perjury due to the system, to the man or to the whisky? — To the man. The men brougiit before me were generally of a certain class. Wp had very few I'espectable men in the trade, and although they spoke a great ileal about it, they never wanted to inform. They even spoke Xo me about li(pior being brought in, and when I said, "(jli\e me im- forinaiion on which to catch the people, and they will be arrested," they refu.sed to do so. .■JS'JIl'. Are the i)eople who are called as witnesses generally of a very I'eputablc class? — They are tiie men who brought it in .■}8213. Do you think they were likely to perjure themselves if they were giving e\id(uice in cases in which they had no personal interest? — Not so much 1 think — no, 1 do not think so. ."58214. Why should there be a diflterence? — The reason was that they did not liki- the law and it did not aj)peal to theii- conscience. .■)S2ir). What is your opinion in legard to prohibition for the country as a whole ; it' tlie people were in favour of it, would it be desirable ? - If a large majority of the peoidc were in favour of prohibition, it would of course be carried. 38210. Would it be desirable? — That I am not prepared to say. 1 lia\e ahva\-- been accustomed to the use of liijuor myself since T grew up, and T was always gi\eii to understand that there was no harm in it unless you took too much. 38217. Have you obserxed, as a .ludge, whether or not it has anything to do witli eases of crime , Yes, sometimes. 1 ha\e had several cases in which it was certainly an element of crime. I had a ease at Medicine Hat where li(iuor was the cau.se of the row that occurred tliere. .")8218. Do you object to the ))rinciple of prohibition? — I ol)ject to it on Imlli gi-ounds. 1 object to the princi])l(> of prohibition. 1 think if a man wants anything lo drink he should be al)le to have it. 38219. You think that even if there was a strong public sentiment in favour i it' prfihibition, it would not be right or wise to enact such a law? I did not say so. I said if a very laige majority was in favour of prohibition it would be right to enact such ii law, but 1 tliiidv it would re(]uir<> a very large majority to carry it out. ()ne good rcii- son 1 have for saying so is, that if such a law wei'e carried by a small majority, it wciulil be infringed by the \ery men who infringeil before, They are the very men who go in for favouring prohibition, anil yet go in for illicit trade. Hox. Jamks FAiiyL'HAHsoN McLkou. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ;(Sl'l'U. Do you think the peojiU; in t'avour nt' ilhcit trade arc in favoiii' of prohibi- tion .'- Yfs. .'{Hl'lil. Is it gpnei-al or is it only in localities wliere sniuyylinj; exists that peojile have such t'eolings / — Yes, where snuigylin,L{ exists. Jill Jmlye McDmuihl : ^82'2'2. It has iieen stated hv .hul,s,'e Hodj;son of Prince Kdward Island that in re- iiard to tlie Scott Act the men who kej)t the worst siieheens were men in favour of the Scott Act? Yes, that is wliat T have found liere. ;58'J2.'{. Under the prohibitory law all are on the same footiii!.', while under the license law such men e(juld not hoj)e to get licenses? — When the license law came into force the ti'aile of those jieople was taken away. By Rev. Dr. Mcleod : ?>%'1'1\. Are the men who are licensed here the same men who wt're engaged in the illicit traffic before the enactment of tlie present law ? — I think so. Hu JiKhje McDonald : .■iS22."), Have you any othei' suggesti(jns t(» ofl'er to the Commissioners? — Xu, I do not think so. I nie mi- ll do so. ■outablc re uiviiiu k — no, 1 ot lik hole : 11 ; oeolilc M'iN-eii ti I, do Willi rtaiiilyim f the row on boUi |\ythiii.!i 1" tavciur "I ISO. 1 -ii"' lict SlU'll i' ^ it, woulo aio i;i' i" GEORGE ALLAN KENNEDY, M. D., of Fort Macleod, on being duly sworn, tieposed as follows : — liij Jiidyf Mi/Jfiiiald : 3822C. How long have you resided at .Macleod? — I have been here olV and on for 11 years. ■ >f<-'27. Have you resided here all the time since you came to the Territories? — Yes, with the exception of 4 years. .■!f<2'28. Where tlid you resitle then? — I was surgeon of the Police, and I resided at ditl'ei'ent posts. •■)Si*2i). Then ycju have .seen the working of the prohibitory law and the license law ill the Territories.' — Y'es. .■?8l!."W. Which do you tlnd jireferaljle .'- -I pi'efer the license law. •■?82."n. Were there dilliculties connected with the cairying out of the prohibitoiy law ?— A great many. .'W^.Sl'. What were they .' — In the first jilace the law was n<'\cr properly enforceil. Then 1 think it gave rise at times to hardships. •■>S2.'i;i. In what way .' -Sometimes people when they wanted li(|Uor could not get it. Tliis is a long way from the base of supplies, and it takes a long time to get iiiiuor here. ;'>S2.'>I. Do you mean li(iuor for medicinal pui'poses ? — Yes, I have seen cases of that kind m the early days. •'>S'j:i."). Were you troubled with smugglinu' ? Yes. oSL'.'iti. In this section ? —Y''es, and at l^'ort Walsh and every place where 1 have been. •■<8L':i7. Wiiat was the quality of the li(|uor ?— Very bail as a rule. •■iS2:5S. Ha\e you iKjticed whether there has been an increase of drunkenness since I lie license law came into force ? It is very hai'd to say. 1 think, probably, tliei-e has I'cen a slight increase. • iSl*.')!). Is there more drunkenness to be seen? -That is a mattei' of opinion. I I I link there has been, possibly, a slight increase. I do U'-t know that there has been more drunkenness, but ir.ore drink. •'i821(.l. Has there been an increase in the number of those engaged in the trade? — X. 21 27. ^*"-*' 419 Oi' ^'iii Liquor Tmrtic — North-west Territoiios. •'?Hl'H. AN'i'it' tlifi't' iriiiic (■hi,'!i;,'(>(l ill tlic ti'.'illic wlieii it was illicit thnii now nndor lii'ciisc .' I tliiiik tlici'c wt'i'c tour l)al)ly. .■(iS24'J. .Jud^iii^' tViiin yuiir i'X|)t'i'it'iH'c, liti you think i)i/•. Mil,, 1,(1: ;{S-_>t.'). You spoke ahout the ditliculty of j,'ettinf; li(|Uor for medicinal purposes? — Yes. ;>i^lit(>. We have heen told hy witnesses here and elsewhere that li(|Uor was never di*Kcult to od, on heiii^' (hily sworn, deposi-d ,i< foHows : />'// Jiulije Mi-Donitlil : .'If^li \~ . With what Church are you connected'? — T am a minister of the Preshvterian Church. .'hS24S. How lout; have you heen in tln' Torritoi'ies ?— -F came here on Scptemhi'r 5th, I SOI. .■iS'_'40. I )i(l you come here from one of the other pro\inees; I'rom New l!runs\\i(k. .'iS'J.")(). I'^'om what part ? From ltestit;ouche ('ounty. .■iSL'.")l. Then you have seen the Territories hoth uiuler the so-called prohihitory .system and also under license? I have. .'i82'")'J. Which do you tind ))referal)le ? It will take me some time toexplain. ^\"hcR T came here tirst, in 1S!)1, prohibition was in force. There were from six to ten saloons here sellini,' openly, without let or hindrance, so far as I know. .'SSl'").}. You mean that li(|Uor was exposed for sale to the fiuMic eve? \ never saw it, but men j,'ot li(pior repeatedly and it seemed to be sold openly and publicly. There were two licensed places. The.se were p(>rmitted, but there were also other places which wei'c known to be sellini; op(>nly, six or ten at least. .■iSl!r»4. Were stejis taken to stop the sale ? There were none. I do not rcmcnilier a prosecution for violation of the law while I was here, and I luinht say I was Ik.mv for eight moiitlis. ;i82o">. I )i(l you c^all the attention of the oliicials to these cases your.self ?— I did. During the lirst six months 1 was here my healtli was very l)ad, T was sutl'ering from throat trouble continuously, but that, \ repeat, was the state of aflairs. .■{S2o(). What were those licensetl phices allowed to sell ? T think il was beer. .■<82">7. Was it the four [)er cent beer? I do not kiu)W the law sulliciently well to be able to state what kind of beer it was. .'{S2r)S. Have you any knowledge of smuggling going on since you were residing here?— I hi.ve no jiersonal knowledge : it was very difficult to get information. The GEOuciK Allan Kknnedy. 420 tcnan Wll.'H ,ll(MlllS IT saw ■I'hc'ir w liii-li U'llllll'l' 1 ili.l. it I'l'Dlll T. wrll 1. ■csiiliiii- i. Tlu 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 triitfic was (•ontiniH'il to ii (•(M'tiiiii cxt'^it liy snmyglcrs, iind wlirn lln' |ii)licf couM not discovci' |iiirti<'iil.irs ot' the iiiiillci', I did not c • nsidcr it my duty to turn detective, its I h.'id 111) |iei'sonal knii\\lfdj,'e in I'cgiird to it, Tlu' liipiur luiisl liiivo liecn ln'ouyiit '" liecduse it wiis sold. .'iS'Jijil. I Ih\ e yuu li\ ed in any muntry wlji'ie iinihiliitinn \\;is in force.' Tliavc liv(Ml in Ci rliester and wii'^ pastor of a ciuircli there wlien liicv had the Scott Act in toreeantl jiri'viou-, to that I was in ^'(»rk (.'ounty, where [ tliink tliey iiad iiiohiliilion. .'ISL'tlU. How did you tind tiie ,\et work .' -I knosv noliiinji; alxnit the County of York, but in Coh'liester, in the rural districts , It all e\ents, it was well eiiforeed. In the place where I was pastor, which was my di.-.trict and was eii;ht niitcs in Icnu'lli and four in width, no li(|U'ir wlialc\er was sold. ;i."<-''>l. In NNJiat f)arl of the county was il It was tlie Township of Urooklield. .'i(^-iL'. Do you fa\our prohihitioii in princi]ile? I tliiid: so because 1 think il is ;ulvanta;,'e()Us. ;if ('hristian ministers before 1st of May leui^ sold ;ind sees that its 421 !«"■ II ilfl m- M Hi 1(1-1 Litinor Tniffic — North-west Territories. follow.'' JullN IJOLIJICS, ,it' Knil .Ma. 1. nil. \\<<{r\ k.'.'|)«'i', 1)11 Itciiiyduly suinii, «l('|M)sc(l as /li/ ,/in/i/r Mt-lhuiiilil . liSlJTO. llow Imi;; liii\t> you iTsidnl in ihc 'I'ciiilKrii's ,' (her 17 years. ■'ifitioii .sy.stcni wius in t'orw. You could get a iici'iiiit, althuu;;li «<• iicvci- th(iui.'lil of it at lii-.st. Init I hclicvc it was part cjf the law. ilu'll I ■.\x: ■\f^'2.~i\. Was lii|U(pi' ;,'cit in dMiiiit,' t liosc days .'— Yes. I saw lii|iiiif in t lie 'rcfi'itni-ies caiiic hci'i' (•I. \)n vuu know ho\- It caoK' in I til it cami' in with tlic tiadeis. .'IH27<). AVIicit^ did it eoiiio in .■is: It -dit was in'iiuiihr across the imundarv )in .' Ki'iihi .Montana. the lioundarv ,' -Y'e.s. ;tSl.'7M. W'a.s it alcoholic li(|iioi', and if so what was its (|iiality takini; sonic, hut I did not take a ureat deal. Y I I ecollect throat. ■■!SL'7i*. What was it like? — It was like soinething iiretty hot as it went down your ;i8l.'S0. It has hceii statod hv some witnesses iiefore this t'oniniissioii that some people usiii!,' lii|Uorlike it to scratch when it passes down .' Y when it went down. .'tSiiSj. Were there many | es. It 'atchcS1. Was th litM .•iSi>8r). .\s ih lere any coiisideralile while po|)ulatioii in the Territ" rhit lati e wliite population increasei hat occl Iheii?- irred ? Th tradiiiLj with the Indians dro))ped oil' altof,'elii .'jSi'sO. Did the li(|Uor stay out ? Not altoi,'ellier, it iio\er stayed out, it was creep 1111; in a little more ail the tin ;!Sl's7. -Vs it .■i8:2S8. Did it come the railway was huiit. crej)t in was it still sniiiy; '''led across the lioundarv 111 in the same way es, it iie\er came from the east until 382i'^!l. After thi^ railway washiiilt it lieiraii to come in in that direction, I sup — Y( jipose : :{8l'90. in the latter days, hefoiv the li(|Uor, in the .Macleod district, mostly liroui,'lit across tii license law came into ton-e, was the su]>])ly ot dar\- ; Part ly fi > >iii across the boundary and jiartly hy waij;ons that would come up from Winnijiej,'. It was hy f a lietter liipujr, at all events it .H<'eme(l to be better than the Montana whisky. .'i82!ll. Can you say wliether, diiriiif; your ac(|uaiiitaiice with Mii li' .sold openly and illicitly befoii' the license la w came in openly ni a way. T lere was no ])i iblic b, d it was not al to force .' — The li(| [uor iKU' was so 1i)7. Wi'ii' otlicf c'dnijuiuiids ii^cd, |ijiiii-killf'r iiml lii|iiids ut' tliiit sort ?— I l)i'- Ik'VI' HU. * .'iS^jDJH, Y'ltii liiiM' nil kniiwlcdjfp (tf tluit yourself? I l)clii'\f it was mi. •'iMlMCt. So t'ar' as yuiir kiiiiwlfdifc ;,'ncs, in how many [ilafcs in .MiicccmI was lii|iirir sold illicitly .' I could not stall' from |ici'soiial kno\vlrd;;r. .'iS.'tOO. Can you stair from hearsay,' Yi's, I lii'lic\c I can I'ouni llii'in ii|i. .'JS.'JOl. How many coulii you count up? 1 can count up aliout I'li. l''rom mcuio- I'anda which I have, I cim count up tilK>ut iMt. 'ts;|():.». On what do you liasc xnii' liclicf that tlici'c was tliat nund)cr scllini: ■ "n tlic statements made liy other iicoplc. .'iS.'iO.'i. Mow was till" liijUor olitaincd liy these pcopli' to sell ' It was jl;oI hv w lial you call smui,'i;lin^, that is, from men who ran the unilerj,'round route. •■!S;t((|. How was it lirouf,'lit in .' liy toams and wajions. .'tS.'iO."). 1 )o you know whether iii|Uor was liroui^hl in concealed in packages .' Xo. I do not know it personally. .'iS.'lOli. Yuu do not know thai liouor was liroinjlil in in suu'ar liarrels and liaircls of rice and molasses f- No. .■)N.'(()7. lla\eyou had any ex)perience in ••anchin,!,' ( Yes. for ten years. ;iS.'tO,S. |''rom your experience, do you lielieve a ]>i'(ihiliitory l;iw couhl lie enforced in tiie North-west Teri'i lories ,'-- I liardly tliiid< it could lie. .'ts.'iO'.i. So far as your know Icdi^e of the North-\\ est .Momited j'olicc itocs, do you think the foi'ce atlemjitcd faithfully to dischar'ne their duties .' I think they did dui'inj; fonner years. I think theri? was slackness ilui'injL;; a few years, liut thai was owiuLi to the police ff!(!linu tlmt they were not supported : they felt that it was of no use tst any ot her law ? Y'es. While the pe or ten U'lU'm kej,'s, or 100 and I'O!) gallons at a lime. ."iS.'UCi. How far Would they have to draw it ! — About l!:.'") miles froai I'lenton. .'iS.'!17. l)o you know anythini,' as to the prices they olitained for the liipior / -Onlv from statements made to me. They would say that they paid •"r-'i a j;allon for it and they would ;ienerally got 8" <>i' ■'^'^ <"i gidlon for it. .'iH.'ilS. What was the pric" per drink ? — I'^ifty cents a I'riiik i,'enei'ally. Ji>/ Jiei: Dr. MrLcocl: ."iS.'U!). Were the ti'ails from the boundary up here closely delined : did they have to follow ihe trails or could they come over any part of the country they pleased ?— There are cei'tain ci-ossiniis of rivers and they would have to make for them. You cannot cross a river anywhere and you ha\e to make for the fords, and thai was the dilliculty. .'iS.SliO. Were they numerous? They were not, liut there were se\fral of them. ."iS.'SLM. l,)o you think it was possible for tlie authorities to guard those fords and .so prevent the smugglers crossing ? — Xo, not to prevent sniugiL'ling. They would stop at those fords, and the smugglei's would find others and cross at them. The force was luit sulliciently large to be on duty all the time. 42:^ iliii i!" ■\\ J'1 iii Ml 84 <': i I (I (I! i il fa i mi jsr 'i' ; r ' ! Liquor Trallic — North-west Territories. ;!S.'V_'"J. l[i)\\ muiiy inciiilM'is uf tin' t'onc wuuld there be nn :.'.">. 1 .sii|j|i(isc it was ail (■.4al)!iNhc(i trailu r(\^'uiariy larriciloii ,' — 'i'l icy generally well' safe on liic trails, lail ll"'y wuuld cross a t'ord that you or 1 would never think of ci'ossiiii;. '.\S.t-2 [. So you do not, think liicy crossed at the regular turds, hut t'ound other t'ords at which to cross? 1 know t'roiii what they liavi' said to nie, tisat they generally looked u|> some torils ot their own. They would make," road to it, and ot course in wintm' lime tliev would lra\cl anywhere as they ( luld get the wagons down on the ice. lii^.'lL'."). Sjicaking ot' the laxity of tlie ollic'.ils ot late years, you altrihulc il to the tact that 1\h' jieople di 1 not supiiorl the police. |)o you think they lieiic\cd it was the iil that uhtain here or nut .' : helicxe il did with respect to some uf the constaliles of the t'urce, liiit there were surie just as anxious to do their duty as then were some to sell themsehcs. As a hody r.do think they were earnest ni irying to catch smugglers. I'.ut of course indi vidual cases occurred 1 do not thi'>k il was a genera' thing. ■'ISIl'JT. Was there any prupurtion of the jiolice who desired enforcement uf the law ill .Macleod .' - Tlu're were a few who desired to see the law enforced in .Macleod, luil thev l)la lied the system. "'^.'il.'S. What feature of the system djil tliey hlame.' Some hlamed the permit sys- tem ill consequence of which the police :'r_'. Was this i|uest,ion made an issue at the election .' -It was tried to he made an issue, liut I he feeling of the people was strongly against making it an issue at the election .'is:!;!;'). I was speaking uf the .Macl 1 distiict! 1 >ow n lierewc t'eU thai we had il. I.' enough prohil)h loll. 1 mean suppose a man had .-uiiie uut as a piuhiliiti(ui caiidi date, I>e inighl as well liaxc stayed at Imme liiH'aiise he wcnild nut lia\e in en elected as the pe >ple had had enuugh jiruhihitiun. ."iS.'l.'l i. Have you heen keejiilig liulel ev . .iu. s:'' Macleud .' Yes. .'is;!.').'). J)i(i yoii have a har prim lo Isl of .May ! ist .' 'S'es. I had a license before that, under 1 ii.' fuiir |ier ceni .syslem. I had nuhai ''efuie that time. I ke|)i liotel for three years wiih>.'0 :. ocense. .'is.'!:!!'). Weliasc lieen luld tliruiighuiil the Territui'ie^ that after ISSS, when I he four (ler cent arr.a'igement came in, that arraiigemcni to sell enaliled a man tu sell,ni\ thing. 1 )o you know anything ahuut that .' It did nut du su. .'iiS.'i.'l7. 1 >id it L;i\(' t he seller any |icriiii-;^iuii tu du su f I du nut think su. Itdiil iiotrllict the trade duwu here. .'i.Sli.'iS. I )u yuii knuw I hat when a man had a li<'e^se lu sell fuui' per cent I r In- sold, whisky ' lie may have done su. ;iS."i.">ll. I think we heard to-day that there are unl\ twn licensed plai'cs here and they are buth liutels ! ^'es. .'iS.'iiO. .\re there any w hulesale licenses issueil ' There are I liree w hulesale license . issued. liS.'Ul. I'll you think there are any other places '-elling, I mean places witlioiii licenses f I hardly think so, I do not know. •Ions l|ui.i,ii;s. 424 FMi 57 VictoT'L Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 license I kept ere iUliI liS.'lll.'. hiiyciu tliink tlie aiiiuuiil of ilrinkiiii; li;is lessened sinee liiese jilaees li,i\t' lieen lieeiised '. I tliitik it li;is hjssened. .'iS.'il.'!. I )() Villi lliiiik llie lie(Misees (il)ser\(i the [ii'ii\ isiuns ot' tlie law.' I tliink I hey (in. •"iS-')44. .\re llie houses closed during the |ii'ohiliited liours.'- 1 think -.o. .■if<.'i I"). And ai'e not open on Sunday?^ J. think not, so t'ar as I am eoneeineil iiiyseif 1 do not. .'tf^.i Id. .\n I he least i|na'ilily that i-an lie sold under the \\hole-~ale licence .'-— I I hild< one liol t le. .■!8;M'.I. I )o wholesalers retail iiy the uiass ? I can seareely say that, I dpeel the rest. :!S."i."i|. Uilu' store if the llud-on r>;i\ ■' ompanv one of the whole-i'e )ilaces? —Yes. ."{f'^io'J. I u as anxious to know whether that eompanv did a w holielf : r ixii to them and show that I ha\e a permit and w.int lo>;el the compan\ to lill it The liipior afterwards conn s in tlirouuli them. It l■.lnll•■^ in ihrouuh iliem \>v express, ami it is handed to Ms when it arri\es. .■iS.'i.lT. 'i'hey import foi- you .' ^'es, .')S.'ir)S. Speakiiiif of the pernnt- vou ha\e had: I'rior to 1st May la>t did \ou m'l permiisfoi' whisky, hrandy anale .' No. ."iS.'SliO. ^'oii had no liar up lo 1st .Ma\ ' .My liar was opened Lisl .\u^Usl, iS'.ll. :iS."i(il. Was tlia' 'it'ler sou had a license to sell foUl' |ie|- een. lieer .' Ivxactly. .'IS.itii.'. .Since 'In :' ymv license has eoNcied everylliini; .' ^'es. ."iS;!!!."). Wiiat have ^ on to pay for a license .' !^'2i)i) a year. ."iS."ili|. |>.iy(,u|iay anylhinu; to the ilisiricl.' No. It is mil incorjioral ed and I heie is no on,- ' o collect . ."iS."i('i."i. As an hoiel man cominu into contact with tic people and as one oliscrvini;' what is iioiiie- on in the country, have you not iced w hel her the liipmr t rallie in il s ellects iiijures or lieiielits the community f I couM answer t hat ipiestion hoth ways. :'i.s:iri(;. Please answer it. ^'es and im, h 'cause tliere is .i pari of I he commniiily leuhom it is in jurious and t here is ;inot her part who are ureal 'y helped li\ il. ■ i^'i'iT. ^'ou refer to I he licpior lii-en .ed I r.ide as il is carried on. To wlial pari of llie coinmiiiiit V is it lieneticial .' To ihe parlies who ii-c liijUor, and of course to ihe liaveller. .'iS.'itiS. To whom is it an injury ! To those who drink to excess. ."iS.ili'.t. I >oes the law allow liipior to he sold lo those who drink lo execs-,,' '{'he !:iu .illow s wlioh'salers lo sell o\i'r one Imllle and if a man drinks ,i lioiili' that is iliiiikmii '"' ext.'ess. ."iS."l7ll. Is there no check on that .' Nol on the v holes.ijer. 'I'lie onl\ check is in llie man himself. ■'i'"*-!7l. I suppose it- is scarceU- necessaiN to ask whelher you lieiie\e in prohiliil ion "I iioi ; If you ask me, 1 say I do nol. ."iS.'!7-. l>o\oii olijeci to ihe 'iriiici|ile of pi'ohilitioii or I o the jiract icaliilit V ? — T.li.iih. 425 I ; 1' I •4 ,1 , rr r^ Liqnor Tmftic — Xoi-tli-west Territories. Ilij Jndije ^Iv.Dowild : :\><:\~:\. Sjicuk.nfr iihout tlic class who use intoxicating li(|iiO'', I desire to ask this questiou : tako I'M men wiio use intoxicating he\ei'ages, what jirojiortion wijiild use tlieni to excess' — I siiouhl say, according to my ohsefation. 10. .■5S;i71. Aiid the othcf ilU wotdd use them in moderation '.' Yes. .■is;i7">. Take th(! settlcrsot' this I'ouiitry. You lia\-e a class of people coming in here fi'oni (Ireat ihitain, (irnnany. l''i'ance and othei' countries, people accustomed t(t the use of ales, wines, whisky and other beverages. It' tliey liad to chooser between a countr\- for settlement that has a licen.se law and where they may obtain what li(|uorthfy wi-^h to use, and a country where they would not he allowed to use li(|uor, which country would more likely obtain that settlement .' -8o far as my opinion goes I would say the couuti'v where there was a license law in t'oi'ce and where they could get the liipior to which they had been accustomed. .'iS.'iT'i. I'^'om your ranching experience in the North-west and coming into coniaii with the ]ie()ple, what did you ti'"..! t(, be the sentiment of the ]ieo])l(> ,' The sentijiiriil i- mostly in favour of lieense. .'?S.'i77. Was it opposed to the ]iri)hil)itiiin system ' It was greatly opposed i(j the system. ."{H.'iTS. Then you have found alsu thai the piuple nbject to li^gislation being foiviMJ up<)n tliem of a chai'acter that they do not want !-^'es, that was just it. There w,i- great dissatisfaction with respect to the law which was forced on them, ami ;i diffennt state of tilings from w liich they had l)een acevistumeil. They hid been trained to ,iu(!t;i for themselves in i't>gard to those matters, and they f ' lliey wein? being intertered with as regards what they considered to be, and what I coiit>ider to be, our rights. .")S.'179. You think in the c()mmunity there exists a sentiment in regaicl to rlie prohibitory law ditterent from the sentiment in regard to other laws '. — Yes, untlouljtedly. /1/j U'l: Dr. Mrt.rnd: .'5Sl5f^O. iSpeaking about the percentage of people drinking to excess : about what i- the percentage of people in the Macleod distrit't who driid< more or less? I should sav about I'll ]ier ( cut. .'iS.'iSl. And about |l> p(M' cent driidc to excess? — Ye.s, that is my opinicm from n \ own observation. .'iS.'iS'J. ffaxe you observed whether among t he '.ill jier cent wIk. drink moderalel, th.ere is a tendency to drink to e.xcess ? — Not beyond the In jjer cent. .■iiS;}S.'i. lTa\e you observed whether many young men. boys, lia\" the driiikiiiL: habit? -l)oys are not alloweil to obtain drink. .SS:i84.' !)oys under what age? )" think about IS. .' the drink habit \ — 1 may say that in Macleod thei'e are few under I ."^ who get lii|Uiii. .TSMSI'i. Ha\e you obserxi'd whether licensed places are a temptation to young iiiin to congregate (here anil acipiire the drink l.abit ? — I do not think so. in the lirst plaiv they would not be allowed to coiigregate there. .'IS.'IST. I refer to young men of '1\ '. N'es. .'iS.'SSS. \\'ould young men about i!t be allowed? There are not \ cry many of iliem My obNer\'ation at all events would not .imoiint to much on that line. .'iS.'tS'.t. |la\e you obser\e(l whether members of the .Mounted Police foiie I'v generally drinking men '. They are about the same as other ilrinking men, a great many do not, take li(|Uor at all, and there are not many of them who drink to excess. DS^illl. Then as a body they dn d<, but not toexce.ssl The police have their 'ami canteen. .'IS.'ilM. They only sell lieei', I belieM> ,' 1 do not think a great iiiaiiy take aidi'iii sjiirits, because with thcim it is about the same as with the general community. ;!.^.'{!)L'. About, IKt pel' cent of them drink- something f — I should judge so. My experience, however, does not exteni! very far in I hat respect. The commissioned otrnei-< Would be better alile to tell you and answer all iple^tions. .loliN llol.l.lK.s. 426 iiiiii 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 :!S:!l);i. Dnyini liiuc nuu'li triivi-l in I'ort Macleod ? .Mui'c oi' less. Sonictiiiu's it is very .slitii iind ill other times it is \-ery ijiisy. •'iS."5i)4. Are tlioy f^eneraliy ediiiiiiercial tiii\eilers ! Not j;eiieially, but there is al- ways (|uite a lot of them. .is:!!)."). Have you observed whether 90 per cent of tlie tra\ellers eoiuinit to your hotel are drinUiiijf men? I do not think my ex]ierience has extemh'd so fai', I ilo not think r have looked to see whether a mai drinks or not. ;)S;)'.)il. Could you run a hotel without a iiarf- No. .'is.')'.)?. AVhy .' — It would not ])av. I tried it for lliree year^ straight alouu' and I know. /(.•^ .'!!)>!. Are we to understand that the men who do not drink and who ]iat loni/.e your hotel, do not jiay for what tiiey itet. l''or instance, f j;o to vciur Intel ;ind you I i large ii^li jier day and 1 do not iiatr^"J pel day pay tVu- what r jret? — Yes, that would p ly all right. .■Jf^.S'Ji. If everybody did liiat 1 suppo.se they would pay for w hat they got accord- ing to your charge ? A'es, l)ut you do not put the circumstances fully. Thee are a u'reat in;iiy p(M>iil.- living in M icleod who ha\c to stay here and I r.innot charge 'hem •*"_' l^"rday liecause it would Im- More than they could pay. .■v*<400. Would \ou charge a sulticieiit anmunt for feeding and boardini; tlieinf — Ves. ."iSlOl. If SI), uciulil no' that pay? The m.-iigin woiihl be sd small that it would not ]iay. There are mtiny expenses you cannot charge, such, tor example, as lia\ing men wait in the hotel. Moreover, travellers do not come right along ste.idily, hut the expenses would go along just the siime. "S' iiotol sudi a ](rice as you have mentioned. ou canno t cliarg c ;i man staviiiLr in t he .•5HI02. Then IS it not a fact that you ;irc t'harging total al)staincrs \s ha< th tually cost you .'--You might be ch.irging uh.it they actually cost, but you ha\(' to .1 end on the amount of tra\( 1" ihel ( >f course, sometimes, instead of three or four comiiiif to louse, a dozen iiuiii may come. The iiuml)er of servants i.s not increased lunther my general expenses, hut the travel is increased, so that my pay is inci'c.ased and T able to pay my way. If 1 have only a few guests my general ex[)eiises go on all \\\i- ' as if J had a great many. .■3SiO.'{, And vou ha.e to fall back on the bar ; — It is necessarv to f; ill hack OI t Ill- is K) I. Is it fair to the bar '■• make it support the house, .•mil is it fair In thr p pic who do not patronize tiie bar to make thi'in pay? — That is t lia\e to go by facts. You ha\(! to billet guests and fix a rcgul.ir r.-div rates ;ire tliosi^ that I can allord to gi\c to the tr.ivclling publii/. inc in t lieorv, i)iii you M V ri'uulai .3810."). I think vou should change fully tiie men w lo do not patronize the b. That is your ojiinion. (>f course if I met many nice men whu preferred your jilaii, I if <'et them to f oilow It. cmniit. how(.'ver, run my estjiblishment mi otl .'is I )(■). Clertainlv this si'cms ti thi> fact, that the m.'iii whu docs nut palrunize I' bar practically does not ]iay for what he gels . .\s I stated befurc, he might jiay d he might o\t'r-pay. It would depend ou the rate charg(!il. .-^'lMJU a day would pay 427 lij Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories. I AV. Jl. PATRICI\, of Foi't Miudcod, r.-uiclicr, on liciniiduly sworn, doposcd us fol- lows ; — Bij Jtuhj)- MiDitniild : ."5^407. How long have you resided in llie Teriitoi-ics ? -Ahotit Hi years off and oil most of till! time. .']S10,S. Have you resided ill diirer(^iit places'/ — Yes, pretty nuu'li all over the Ter- ritori(!s. .'lN-10'.'. I'^i-om what sectioi) of the country did you come to tlie Territories? — From Maniloha. .'iSUO. Have you heen at jvlniontun, Prince Allierl and other jilaces?— Yes, in the early days. ;'iS-H 1. All along the Iniundary also. I suppose? — 100 or -'itJO nnles east of here. .')('"! 11 ■_'. During all the time you have lived in the Territories have you been engaged ill ranching? — 1 ha\e bei>i) at ditlerenl occupations, driving cattle, ranching and farm- M' ill' Vr l(i~iH.'>. Then you ha\t' been engaged in the ranching husi'icss ?- -Yes. •'iStl I. And have ynu done a great deal in connection with fanning .' — 1 have been faiiiiiiig the whol(> lime. .■iiS-H-"). When you tiist came to the country was the |)rohibitory law in force .'- There was no law. .'iSfl'i. And when did the prohibition law come into force? —It came in wh'Mi liie North-west .Mounted Police came in. ;!JS-117. >Su far as your observation goes did the Xorth-west .Mounted Police honestly endeavour to do their duty ? - Yes, to a certain e.xtent, to the best of their ability. .■i841S. You think the force, as a whole, mach? aii honest attempt to carry out the law?— Yes. .■i, and from e\ cry point. ;iS12"_'. l''rom the east '. Yes. most of i^^^ came from .Manitoba. 384'2."5. ])o you know much about the (|uality of li(iuo>- that « as brought in fruin those ])laces ? Some of it was very poor stuff. ."is l'J4 Do you know how it came in, in what shajie ?- In all shapes. ;{S425. 1 )o you know the class of persons who brought it in? lliey were all kind-. .'}84'20. Did not all the men sell other goods at the same time ] — Not that Iknowuf. .■5S4'_'7. It seemed to be a branch of business to itself ?- Yes. .'{S4"_'S. Is li(|uor brought in from .Montana .' Yes. .■<84'J!t. What distance would it have to be brought ] — .M.ieleod is aboi^t ^l'2'^ iiiih- froni l'"ort l>enton and (lieat l''alls, Montana. •iSl.'K). Do you know if any caches were jirovided where the li(|Uor was hidileii .' I do not know of any, but there certaiidy must have been some. .'JSl.'U. Was the li(]uor brought in carts? — Yes. and in wagons. .■|84-iL'. How do you sui)pose the snuiggliM's were iible to a\()id the Xorth-«e^i Mounteil i'olice .' -it was \crv hard for the jiolice to watch so many at a time. TIm' wlioli' population was in favour of getting in lii|UiU', .uid so they got it in. .'ISI.'i.i. Did th(> length of the boundary cause the ditliculty ? — It certainly iliil There is. of couise, a long stretch of bouiidarv, and there was scai'cely any settlement ai that time. :!Sl.'il. .\s settlement increased, did it right i he dithculty .' - I do not think it did ; I rather think it increased it. .■t8|;t."i. Do you know anything as to the crist of liipi th or in t hose i davs ? Th was from SIO to .•?40 a gallon \V. II. pATlilCK. 428 Iff; l:(', 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'{S4.').\|i(isi'il i)]iiMily for sale '/ — Decidedly, but very seldom. .SS|;iS. I )id you ever see li(|Uor lirou<;ht in and sold in other iiacka;,'es, such, for instance, as barrels of I'iee, sii^ar or molasses .' I never did myself, but I know it I'aiiie in in that way. I have often heard it sjiokeii of. .■?S1.')'J. l)idyou in'er hear of use being made of jjain-kiiler, .lainaica ;L,'in,i;er and substances of that kind? — Yes, freL(ard to the Indians, I nuicli sale of li(nior made to Indian ippe 'Y -Not of l;ite years. .'SSI')'-'. Was there in the early days ?- Yes. .'ill b").'i. ^^'as liipior given in exchange for furs ? -Y'es. .'iS4r»|. Did the police put a stop to that? Yes. 1 think the fact of tli ndians getting lietter has beitn more due to their not obtn Ise. and they had noihimt with which to 'iiiv it. .Id imins' liiiuor tiian th any th :),S4ri."). |)id the traders in the old days barter vitli the Indians '. — Yes. .'iSb")!!. Did the police put a stop to that? — Yes. They stopped that all v\ 'iiougli, of course. .'lS4-")7 Have you noticed siine 1st of .Ma\' tlia.t there has been ai iliimkenness anion 'St the I ndians since tl at all events not until to-day. 1 increase in aw came into ell'ect '.- - I do not think Today 1 saw in Macleod the first Indian drunk that le license I have .seen for five years. .'is |.")S. Ar(> vou awar( e whether Lliere has licen a iiv ditlerence amoiii; the Half-breeds No, they got as much liipior before the license law as they do now. The C >minission adjou riu'd, to meet at Banti'. 429 iiii m y J! !*■'' P= Liquor Traffic — Nortli-'we.st Territories. BANFI'', Nnvonibcr !•_>, ISDJ. Till- Hiival ('(Hiiiiiissidii cm the Liinior 'I'ratlic mot lieic this iljiy. I'rcnent : Jl IMiK .M(|)n\AI,l». IvKV. l)l(. M('|ji; force faithful in the discharge of their duties? — Yes. .Hf^Mio. Have they lieeri vigilant all the time? Ye.^. .■iS4(>'). Kroni your statement I should judge that you had heen in the southern jiart of the Territoi'ies ])art of the time? — Yes, i have Ijeen there most of the time. :>S Hi?. What wiM'e the principal diHiculties tliat the force had to cope with in carrving out the law :■— The po[)ular sentiment was entirely against it. .'is MIS. What were the modes of hi'eaUing tiie law .' -Snoiguling. There w'- abundant means by a hich li(|Uor could l)e sniuguled in. They would snuiggle it frile the bunbcr at e.icli end and at the sides and till the centre witii b.ni' i- of whisky. When Sii' Lester Kaye was building his farm and getting large i|uantiiii'^ of lumber in, lartre i|Ua:itities of li(|Uor would come in consigned to him a'-- Inmbeiand ii would be |>ut oil' at some >iding. Directly it was |iut olV t he men woidd be on hand .him cart it away. .'?SKi'.'. \\'' ha\t' iicen told that packages of liipior were consigned to people ti'i whom they were not inlended .' Yes. l''li.\Mv H.MU'l'.li. 430 57 Victoria, Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ■I'C Wi- it t'nun iiiiirniiii: Sll[)|lll. wiiicli ill' nans t'"i' ire iIm' ar wciiiM fi)|i(' illnl Mill till')' niulll iiii' in-. Til. 1, llMl'lvN |ii,iiititit's ii'f mill i' iuikI ami iiiilf t'i'i' 111 til iiiiii •■i8470. And that tlie [ifojilc for wlioni tlicy weie init'micd would conic and get the |iai'kiii,'es and take them away ?-— Yes, lundmr was consigned to Sir Lestcf ICaye tliat lie had nevei' ordefcd, and he would never get it, t'of it would lie left at some siid ytiu ever make seizures'?. — Yes. ;5847(). What kind of li(|uor was generally .seized / — \'ery had. It was prinriii.illy whisky, hut I thirdv it was really vitriol or at least it was some had stull'. The liipiur since the new law has hecMi in force has heen \ery much hetter. •"is477. i)id you ever make any seizures i;. the southern part? — Yes. l'iS47s. What class of men wt;re engaged in the business? — The man 1 got was an iikl iioliceman in the force. .■)S47!). He was not in the force at that time? No, he had left the force. The uav they biought it in was from the I'nited States; they would cache it some dis- laiice away from town or s(>ttlement, and then would liring it in in small ipiant ities at .1 time. .'58480. !ia\(' you ever known compounds used as drinks? I lia\e kmiwii men drinking . I amaica ginger and pain-kdler, Florida water and ditVerent "j^sences and a \ariety of scents. 1 know that a great many pi'ople jit that time, merchants and lit hers, made u]> scentsand essences and a small quantity of alcohol was put into the mixture and the j)eople drank it. ( )ne of the Macleod ]iei)ple made .(amaica ginger. When we searched the plai'c we found alcohol, dirt"erent kinds of essences, cayenne pepper and a lot of old .Jamaica gingei- bottles, l)ut the compound seemed to be composed I'hietly of alcohol and not nmch of ginger. lie h.id, however, all the appliances for making ginger. .'5.^481. \\'e u/iilerstand that [lai'V of the duty of the force was to make dianiriliary visits? — Yes. We could -.search anywhere, that is a connnissioned nllirer could, m a piilircman under the oiders of a lonnnissioned otticer. .")S4S2. |)iil you I'Ncr make personal search ?- Yes. ;>'< t8;i. Anil found lii|Uoi? Yes, .■5f8(f<.'i. Poured out on the ground ? ^'es. .").'<48(). Taki; thelii|uni' fnuiid in the lumber, wa-. it lll■^lroyed ' '^'e^. it w ;is |Miiirid Hilt cii the ground. '>st87. How long have you been al ISanH? — l'"i\e year--. .'5.^(8^', Ha\e you e\er known pai'ties here ^'ct in lii|Uiir and li,a\e a regular ili'iiiking bout '? — Y'es. ■"'^4811. Have you had any expeiience of t he working ul i he [icrmit -ystem '. I had a -leat deal. I consifh-r that in the early days, befmv the railway came in, it worked lairly well ; but since, it did not work well at all. r-Tiuits <• ere given under tietiti'Hi> ii.uiies. In the old days when you searched a man - place and found liipior' it had to lie ^liowri that it came in undei' his own name, but untter the decision of one of the .ludges, it was aftei'war'ds i-uledthatso loni; as he Ijiwi permits ti> e niie ur uiie hundred pei- iiiit-. •ludi'e Uouleau railed that w;iv. •')8|it0. You say that li(|Uor could bebrought in s»- I barter and sale I The parties were only gr'anted peirnils for' medinnal and diurie'^iic lit U-.l-<. 431 I, ■ I Ll(iuoi- Traffic — North-west Teri'itories. ."iSI'.tl. lint could licit 11 |i('rs()M wliii had I'cci'h cd li(|Ucir un ;i |M'iiiiil i raii-it'ci' hi- permit ('\('ii it' it was tjir his own usu? -It was iiii|MPssil>lc to |iin\(> a sale. ."is H)'.'. 'I'akiii^tall thi' ruses you liave inciitioiifd, do ymi l)t'lic\c thi'V arc siitlicifiit cv i- (k'licf as to what puljlif sciitiiiicnt was in tiic 'I'crritorics with rcuard to tlir lirohiliitorv law? ^1 do. .")f4. Did they view iiiiuor ea.ses dill't reiitly tVoni .my other cases .' 'I'liat law wa- an un|io])iilar one, deprivini; them ot' the ri;,dit to drink what they liked, and they consj dered they had as much iii,dit to iiav;' liipior as any one else. I ha\(' known witnesses to come n|) and sweai' to that which I knew was a direct lie. .'is I'.i."). As an olU<'er you ha\e l>een connected with the adnunisi ration of justice, takini; jiart, in it t'or a nundier of years. What did you lind theeH'ectto Immhi the inihlic conscience of lia\inLr a l.iw on the statute liook that was persistently \iolatcd .' ft w;i- very had. .'is t'.Ki. ^'ou think the law would lie a u'ood one, if i'ariied out ' Yes, I he |iroliiliiloiv law would he a L,'ossible to carry it out. I thiidc the ]iresent law is vcit uuu'h prefei'ahle to the jiernnt system that was jii'(^\ iou^ly in force, .'!Sl<)7. ^\"e ha\(' noticed th/it there is a \eiy lar^e iiotel here as well as the one in which we now are, and to hoth of which traxcllers come from all parts of this count ly and of the wor'ld. W'liat do you think would he tlu' effect if all the quests on arrivini; heri' were deprived of li(|Uor ( — I tliink it would lie a yreat injury. Uefore the licen.se law came into force on 1st May last, the Canadian Pacific Mailway hotel aiul this hotel had licnses from the Lieutenant-fJovernor to .sell wine and beer hut no spirits. There area Ljreat many travellers, especially i'jinlisli ;,'ui'sts, who must ha\e llieii' whisky and water liefore iioin;,' to bed. They nnisl ha\e it, oi' they will not remain. ;}S4'.IS. "^'ou. your.self. are an Ein,dishman .'- 1 am. ■'itS+'Jl). Takinij; tlui KHt,dish people as a rule, and takinji tlu; (Jerman and other dif- ferent cla.s.ses of ])eoiile who are accustomed to {lartake of intoxieatini; bevera<.;es in mo deration. Tf p<'o))le comint; fi'om foreiu'n countries find there is one sectien accustomed and another section whei'e they cannot obtain them, because a prohibitoi'v law is in force, the con ditioiis otherwise lieiiiii eipial, to whicli section would they l)e likelv tt) go /-They would prefer a license country. ;5JSr)00. Are there any suici,'i'stions you can oli'ei' to the Connnission in rci^'ard to the license law itself or anv amendment thereto? I think the license law if enforced would l)e an e.\cellent ihinjj;, and it could be very nuich more strictly enforced than it is to-day. foi' at present it is not carried out strictly. There is a License Inspectoi' appoiided in carr'V out the law, but he li\es at Calyarv ; and there should be more stringent order- t the Inspector in carryin;,' out the law. One of the | irovision- uncn to the poJH'c to assis of the law is that liipior shall not be served to a man who is intoxicated. There slmuli be a very severe penalty imposed for a breach of that [ii'ovision. .'iS.'iOl. The law also prohibits sal(> to minors .' -Yes, also durinij; prohibiti'd and as re^ai'ds keepintf open on Sunday. "iDL". .!( the law observed in d to sale to minors? -1 do not know. .'iS.jO;!. And to drunken nuMi, vou th nnU liipior is so Id veil .'iS.)().t. As to keepin;.f open on Sundays ami after hours how is that pro\ ision oli-er The prfori\ ( )ne reason is that many peoph have iriven up drinking' li(|Uor, esjieci; illv <'s the same I'cmark apply to them as it docs to othei's ' -A'es, I am not, liowevei', makiiii;' special rct'eienci' to miners, hut. am spcjikint; of drinkinit in the early days. I am sjieakiiii,' genei'ally, not particularly of minors. Ijut 1 may say that I do not lliink there is as much drunkenness among miners in this section since the liccn^i' law came into force as there was previously. A'// AV/-. />,: .]/<■/.■„,/: '■')!<:>{)[). l)id vou oliscrve whether there were a gnat numlier of pri'iuits issued'.' - Permits wine numerous. Latterly that wastlw ca not so numerous and. moreox'er. there were not so many people in the 'i'ei'ritories. .''SolO. Was there any di'-ci'etion exercised in 1 he issue of permits, according 1o vour oliservation 't Yes. •ii^ol i. r)o you think they were issued for cause, or were they issued to almost every one who might iijiply ,' - .Sometimes they were not issued ; it depended on the ap])lieant. Sometime.sa jiermil was I'ofused and the ni.in would then go to the rejirMsentatiM' of his district and say that he wished a permit to lie issued and granted to him : the niemher would write a private letter, and as a lule the permit woidd he granted. .SSol^. Then. I sujijiose. the ])erMiit could not very well lie refused I No, there was a good deal of ditliculty sometimes to ohtaiii the permit. ."isni.'i. And when olitained was it not u.scd to cover liijuor wherescr found ' That was the ease in this district. There was no use eomicting a man for having li(|Uoi' in his possession for it would he found to lie coxercMJ hy a ]>eriiut. and in I'ase of comic- tion an appeal would be taken to dudge Konleau. who decided that so long as a man had .1 ]iermit to cover a certain ([Uantity of litpior it did not matter where the li(juor was. S prosecution could he carried to a conclusion he ajiiilied for one anil got one, woukl that covered the (|uantity and would he be safe ? — I have known of such cases. .■>S.") 1 ."). Were applicants for permits (>ver referred to you to re])ort as to whether I hey should be granted or not .'--Yes. .■iiS.")l(). Have vou repi.irted sometimes against the issuing of permits to certain indi- duals f— Yes, •'5S.")17, Have permits been issued over your repoi'ts against such being granted '. ^'es. .■1S.")1,S. You have had cases like that.' Ye.s. .i^^-'jl!). From your knowledge of the way in which permits were granted, have you come to the coiiclusifiii that the .system of late years was not one of prohibition but rather of permit '. It was one of permission I should say. •■{8-")20. Uinler tlios<> circumstances it w as dithcull to detect smuggling, of course ? — Ves, •i^^-'il'l. We have heard that police constaiiles w eri! not allowed to search Pullmans ,' Yes. ."iSoL'-J, Was the fact that Pullmans were used by smugglers e\er brought to the attention of the authorities, within your knowledge f — Yes, ■'5S.")2:5. Did they try to ))revent it ; - No. • ISo^b The same condition continued? — Yes. •■<.'^-')2.'"). Do vou think there is more or less drinking; now than there was before the license system went into ojieration ? — 1 think when the lii'cuse system went into f(,)i-ce, I hat is to say for the first month, there was mor(> drinking, but at the jireseiit time 1 do not consider there is as much. Hi: 433 •)8** ill lii'l ti > Dili Liquor Trallic — North-west Territories. ■'iS5i'(i. Will you tell tlu' (.'oiiimissiuii wlietlii'i' tlii'it; is mure cir less sold now tliaii ]ii('\ idtisly ! I cniild not tell tliiit. •'sr)i.".>. Have you not had niofe cases of di'unUs hct'ore you as a .^^al,'istl•ate since the law came into force than you had hefore ; (U> you keep a record of the cases.' —Yes. .'iS.")."i(). Will you favour the ( 'oniniission with the record of the cases since the license lasv came into operation, and iherecoi'd foi' a similar ]n'riod previously? — Yes, I would have to take the record for a certain nuniher of months, Ijccause the iiiine.s are slnil up for a ceitain p<;riod durinj,' tlie summer months. The mines at Canmore have (jiily heen de\-eloped during the last yejir or two. Thiiy wei'e carritil on on a small scale at first, hut now there are ahout 'JotJ men woi'king there. ."tcS.'jlJI. Vou have stated that the license law is not very well enforced ! Yes. .'iiS.").'iL'. To what do you attribute that non-enforcement f I undei'stand the enforce nient I'est.s with the Executive at Kngiiia ? — -They liave the power to cause the law to lie more stringently enforced. liSr).'i.'i. Whose duty is it to enforce the license law ? — Thei'e is no one here. The Liceirse Inspector' liv(?s in Calgary, and In^ visits the jilace. :tonse of selling beer they would sell all kinds of liiiuor ! — Y'es. .'?8.")1."). Does the license law i'<'ally regulate the trade more than the so-called pro- hibition did ? Y'es, I think it does, hecause a man has to pay a large license and he will look after illicit sellers for his own protection. .S8.t4(). Arc there any persons other than thosi? licensed selling now .' There may be (jne or two, in fact I am ])retty certain there are. .'^8017. Do the licensees make coin])laint against the men who sell anil have no licenses? -No. \N'hen the beer law came into force in Banlf, there were certain licenses FlIANK llAUI'KIi. 434 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 t,'i;iii(('(l to lidtt'lN, :iiiil tlit'ic w.is ,1 iiiiin wliu \va^ x'lliiii,' I lien mikI 'ir icmt imn'il In si'll. 'riic licrnscd nii'M wcni and told liiiii Id L;i\c ii|> selling ur iliry would iiit'oi'in mi liiin .".S.")1S. hid he ; Yc^. ."i.^^")!!). Iliivc yon ol)sfi'\('(l tlir (.■Ht'ijl of tlic liijuor triillic .iiid tlif li(|iior h.iliit oii \aiious iiiiiTcsts touclifd l»y tlieiii, hiisincHs intcct'sts, si>cial .iiid lioiiif iutcicsls and llu- nioialHof l!io jH'oiilf, wlit'tlifi' till' I'd'fut is lioiicliciivl or iiijuiioiis in any dfj{ii'i' .' 1 iliink ii is injurious. /J// Judgi; McDmiiilil ; liH'i'ccin I soli ^ill |c(l inn antl li'' kr niay liave !io lit'onsi's ilinn or in cxfcss .' I tiiink it is .'i.sn^O. I)o you mean wiu'n li(|Uor is used in nioiiiT; injurious in this pai't of tiu' <'iiunlry and u|i licrc JiS").")!. How many persons wci'c scliinLC ill IJanfl' Ix'forc tiic license law eanie into dlieiiit ion ,' (V'i'taiidy six were sellini^ retail. Sometimes, pt the permit which was issued after the liipior had heen seized and so let, them fre(! I — Yes. ;)Sr)(')l. Which you very propcu'ly refused to do f -Yes, certaiidy. .'iS.TCc'. They would still retain the permits themselves ?^Yes, and thi'y would bring in more licpior under them aflciwards. •iSoC).'}. Ill cases of permits iieing issued over your report, when in fact you had ri'ported against them, had you any knowledge as to what other reeonnnendat ions had been made that led to your report being overridden '. - In some cases T ha\(' known the repie.sentative of the district making icconnnendation. At one jieriod it was necessary iliat all [K^i'unts should be recommended l)y miMubers of the Assembly for the district in \^hich the applicant resided. • i^olil. On that ground the (lovru'iior issmnl permits on the ri'conuneudation of ihe representatives, and in fact he acted entirely on those reconmiendal ions'! — Y'es. ."iSodT). r supjiose theie wertMuauy cases in which your reports were acted on! — Certainly. .'iSotid. And li(pior pernnts were refused .' -Yes. In many cases permits were 'efused on my advice 21 I'S.l** a j;n^at manv were so refusetl. 43.") Mi IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-S) 1.0 I.I 1.25 '■'■ ** IIIIIM - 142 1110 1.8 1.4 ^/JM ^ ^ /i ^M o;^ w Photographic Sciences Corporation ■6^ ^^ -i-^ \ \ ?v <«> 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. MSBO (716) 873-4S03 <1? ^ J%. <; / i ( i M Liquor Trattic — N'orth-Avefjt Teiritoiies. /.'// h'rr. Dr. Mrl.,',,,1 : ."iSotiy. In cases ii) wliicii |ii'riuits ^v«'|•t' issued omt yuiu' r('|Miri* luid y. In those eases or in sonie of them your report was ovei riiMen ani. Wliiit yu I'iill .siiiu^iiliiii; ? — Yt's. .■il>i.")j>i'J. \V('i-f you cjiHimI upon ntliciiilly tn il<-al witli >iuli matters ? — Yes. .■(.S.l'JU. Oil jKUtius twin;,' brou^lit h.t'un- vuu tor illuit tnirt?: you deul witli tliein, I ■(Uppose t — Yes. .'tS;")!)!. Wliiit kinds of liipior wen- brought in nx^tly .' - Whisky. .'inriD^. Did you h<'iir in wli.-it, ways it was hrouglit in .' Yes. I had a couple of policemen here to assist me. There wiis a j^immI deal of i-owtlyisni here when I first raine. During the winter of Sfi there were many dLsreputalde character here who had followed the construction of the railway. After the niilway was completed the comniu- iiily settU^d down and many of them live«l in tent^. .VlK»ut that time .several serious rows t.|ieclor of licenses here; when matters are brought to the attention of tin- Inspector action is taken, lie li\i>s It t'algary, which is nearly 100 miles from here. .■{S<)02. iSo unless theic is a resident Ins|«M-t in tin- I'aik .shall lie iiii|)ipsi'cl ami < iiforufd, ill iiililitidii Ik ihf icstiiitiiui.s iiii|iiiM'il liy llu- Nurlli wc.tl Tci ritoiics .\ct : ri. " '"lie "ide of iiitoviiutiiii; lii|ii(iis. even iiiuhr tin- i<|M- In- hIIkwciI to hnlcl kii''sI> fill tidilc use. Niu slmll iinv pirson, iifter nlitainin^; ^luh it|)eiial |H'niiiin. m'll, cNchaiigc, liailc oi '437 es, new d the The matters ind At Hi i I ,1! i 4 if < \i 1 M Liiiuor Tratlic — Xorth-wcst Territories. Iiartor. or liiivr ii lii» iiohM'ssiciii, uitliiii tlu' I'luk, even for Imti'l um' uiiiicr- thin rcj;ulatii>ii. n\n inliixicatiii^' licjiKff, until lii« M|K-i'ial |«'iiiiissii' that the hot<0 is not l>cing ('oniln>'t<'i'. ami the ini inittcc siiall have no claim to have irpaiil to liiin any portion of tlit^ft-c paiil for loinituiKijininj; smli |irriiiit. " .■JSi'iO"). Do y<'» fliiiik those (lie jjchmI ifj^uliit ions for tlic Park? Yes. Dtvouise there iiii^ht be iinitro\eineiits in them, hut those are the rejiul'itions we liiul. .'IHtiOtl. You tiiiiik tliose re^uhitioiis are l)etter tliaii the lieeiise law, 1 su|>]Mise .' — Yes, of course they iiiij;lit not lie applieahie to (h(! Territories as » wheakin<; of the Hocky Mountain Park. .'antV before the license law eaine into operation ? — Yes. .'{MfiO^. Was there sah- in many plaees >,'«>iii,u on?--hefore that time lliere were i|uite a nuinher of phices on the (juiet. ;u in a |io.sition to say how many there were .' No, my attention was eontined to the Park : otliei jtersons will no (hiultt he able to tell you. /iy liev Dr. McLfod : .'tsOlO. Yoi spoke about tlie Park beinji under a diireient law. l)o we understand that tlu^ North-\ est orohibitory law did not apj)ly to the I'ark, or was tliere a diH'ereiit law ab lUt tlie Park '. It applied to the I'ark ; our instructions were toapjily the j>ermit system to t!u> Park and to see that our own regulations were carried out. That was in .Inly. iS90. P.efore tliat we had iiothiii<; but the Nortii-west < )rdinance to work with. 7ii/ Jiic/tjf McliniKild : .'Ssdll. TiuMi this is in a(hliti(>n to tlie North-west Ordinanci' ? Yes. We ha\i' power in the re^^ulations to adojit any North-west Ordinain-e which the regulations di* not cover. Ihj liet\ Dr.Mrf.rod: • tStUi. Then this is an addition to the North-west Act !- Yes. .■{Stil.n. When the North-west Act of ]>rohibition or |iermission was repealed and : ^_ 1 __ *_i i?.__ _____ were sto|)ped doing .so. ■'{f«'iilt>er.sons who .sold? Yes, I think jiersons ohtaiited ]ierinits and sold liijuor. .iHdL'.'t. Do you nn-an that they had porinits to sell ? - At least they tried to do so. 1 hear2I. l)o you think that the persons who olttained li.pior for medieinal jiurposcs sold it .' — I think so, although no ca.su was brought before nie. I was not acting as Magistrate at that time, hut I heard those re|H)rts easually. .'tHtlL'"). |)o you think that the regulations ooidd be enforced if tiiey were not inter- fered with ' Y«" s. ;i8(l*2. ^■ou ha\e obserxed what has been going on for .some years ; do you bclic\(> that there is more or less lit|Uor sold now than then .' I think there is more. .■?K(l:i|. Do you form that opinion from the effects of drinking seen, oi-do you think there is really more litpior sold ? -Yes, I think there is niore li(|Uor sold. HHC.'VJ. Were you here during the railway construction time? -\o, I wa.> in Wiiniijteg. .'tSti.'t.'i. Did you notice, iluring the con.struction period, whether prohibition had a i;ood etVect or not .'- I do not know from my own knowledge as I was not along the line, l)Ut 1 heard it stated that during that time there was lessdrinking and drioikenness an prevailed. 1 do not think it is a fair criterion by which to judge of the way we were situated here under the pernnt system. I do not think any isolated place '■an be taken as an e.\ample. ."(St).'i."i. |[a\<' you any opinion as to the desirability of having prohibition foi- the country at laige ; do you consider such a law is d(»sirable? I am not a |ii'ohibiti(in man personally ; 1 never took a drop of li(|Uor in my life, but I do not l>elie\i' in hinder- ing a person making proper use of it if he chooses. It is very nm'II in theory, but I do not U'lieve a )irohibitory law can be carried out. .'{8t).'ersons holding licenses should be idlowi-d to sell dnr ing the |iresent prohibited hours and whenever they like? -I think they do that now. .'{StJ.'V.t. So that is a case in which a lictmse law does not regulate .' The law jirohibits that, but there are means found to break it. •IHtilO. AVas not the prohibitory law intended to jirohibit the sale, and were not means found to break it ? Yes. I'nder the old jirohibilory law if liipior was found in i man's jMissession you could punish him ; now of course you cannot do it. :tS<)ll. You have lived in Ontario, I understand, and you now live in the Terrilorn's and are Su|iei-intendent of the |{ockv .Mountain Park here. During the vi-ars von have 439 H! Ill WiV.- flv '■; ':\ 40 ji^-. ■' . 1 i\ I 1i Liquor TraHic — \uifli-west 'I'eniroiies. Iii'cn In'if \\n\r ymi iilim>i'\('il wliai I'Mni I lie liiiiuir Irallir Ims litul mi tin- ItUHiiicHH iiitt'i'eNt.s ami siH'iiil ninilit iiiii>, antl mi tlii' iiii>ial iiilcn-sts ot' tli<> <'<>iiiiiiuiiit \ . wliftlicr il lias Im-i-ii ;{ihmI (ir liad .' It lias had a ImkI iiilluciu't'. Uy Jiiilijr M,p,.,„tl,i: ''tN)')ll.'. I uiiiitTstotHl ymi to -ay tliiti you diil not know to wliiit cMi-iit lii|iiur \vii> siiui;,'Hlcd .' No, I only klii'W iklHiiit tlii' rases t!iat were lil'oii^ht ln't'olc liir. I liavc kiiiiwii lit' lii|Uor liriii^ sent in my naiiic licrr, wliicii 1 kti<-\\ notliin;; alxiiit. l>AN"lh W M l'ri%, ot" naiilT, sictioii t'm-ciiiaii on till- Canadian I'licilic ltaiU\av. ">n U lemg duly ssvorn, ilc|i(isc«i as toiiows ; — lifl Jiidyi Mr/)<,iiii/ii : :Wti'.\. Ifow Ion;; iia\i' yoii liei-ii ii: llanir ! 'riiifi- yoais. .■(HtlH. Whi'if did you livf iH't'mc that ' Tlic yrai liffmc llial, I «as in Itiitisli Coluinl)ia. .'{S(i4.-). Al what iihut . I UitiT Tail, iho first station west ot' Kii-ld. .■l)iy.-d .' Uailway trains wcif i'in|iliiy)'d and il was fjikon in packa^i's and in othfi- ways, .■l>ass(>n!ifr tr.iiiis and un ihi' fr<'i;,'lit Ifaiiis as ordinary t'rfi;(iit, .■lS;): Ii ow was il consii'iii'd ' (1 'allv to III hiT nai'tifs and -■■niftiini's lo ihciii .'ts (■).'").">. You s,i\ thai siiini'tinii's ihi- packages wcri' addii'sscd in niht-i parlies and soint't lines lo tl leinseiM's. I 'I'l" tl lose parlies wnuld ha\ e n Sunie iiarlies would not, f knew a ease at hanlF w hei d !• .1 set klmwli'd;,'!' iif the f;irl lion man like myself oiinil a iiaekai;e ai kii ddressed lnt ? — Aleoholie li.|Uor. so far as f understand. T dfi not know the taste of lii|Uor. :{8t >;)( . Are you a IoIjiI ahstainer / Ye: ;{!<(!")?*, Are ymi in fa\our nf |>riiliil>il ion, on jirineiple ' ^'es. .■ISlJ.'tit, I tiiyiiu loiik iipmi the lieeiisiiiy lit' the t ratlie as w I'lin;^ in prineiple ,' Ye.s, .•iSlil'iO, Do you think it is .i sin t.. lieense the Iratlie t Yes. /il/ Jier. Dr. Mr Lead: '\MCi\. You spoke alHiut siiiiiir^lin;; heint; earried mi tliroti^h the railway : Oo you think that the eompany were in eolliision with the smuj,';;lers ' | think in a ;^reat many oasos the railway employees, ari). or at all exents they were tip|M>il for previiitinj: the sinuffKlers heiiif^ enui;lil. In other cases, of eourse, tlu-y have iiu control nver the Hinu^^lin^. ."iSfKi"-'. IIa\e you charge of a niimU'r of men mi your section .' Yes. Seven miles i8 the length of my seetimi, (iKiiidiK A. Sri.wAin. 440 67 Victoria. Sessional Pa|)er8 (No. 21.) A. 1894 .'t8*)ii'l. Mitxr yiiii iMitii't'd til)' ('H'<-('( iif (lit' lii|iiiii' Inuli- iiii\i-)'s ' ^'l'^, I liitM- riuiirfil till' t'tlt'i't. I iiiiM' iiNi) until I'll its iiitliii'iirt* III! IiiImiiii'Iii;; iid-ii ilufiii;.' MJnf 1 1' yrfifs' i'\|M-i'i<'lirc in thr riiiti'ii Stiiti's, aiitl I Iuim- ahviiys iKilictMJ that drink in;; lialiits i-iiiis«> tri)iii)l*-iiii)< way iti'iiiiotli)T \\ itii litlMtiirin;; iidmi. .'tS till- lici'iist' law i-aiiif into t'oirr did ymi tind that llif iin'ii rmild easily nlitain lii|iiiir it' tliry wanti-d it .' I iindcrstiHMl they riuild. .■{M()li."(. What Jirc the ruli-s lit' thr Canadian I'arilir Kailway iii ri'i;ai'il tn di inkiiiu men I Th<- i-oiiipany |>i'iiliil>it it ^'t'licrally drinking I incun. .'Istitiii. Ill nt.sH of Koi'tiiin ineii, wiiaf arc llif riii*«H of the ('(iiii|iaMy ' 'I'n al>stain. .'(MCiliT. It' a Ill/Ill was t'niind In In- a tirinkii'v' man. what wutild Ix- iln' ii'sult .' - I )is('|iaruf at oiiri'. .'IStitlS. What diMsthi' Canadian I'aiilii- I'ailway ini-an l>y driiikiiiL; iin'ii ' Any lial)itiial di'inkiM' nt' lii|iiiir, they liaxc ni> um- t'nr him and disrhar;.'!- him. .'tSOtl'.*. Sn|i[iitsi' yoii usimI lii|U()r r(>;jiilarl\ i-M-ry day and tn at nu-al tinn- tiHtk soiiif more, wiiiild th<' Canadian Taiilir Itailway nhji-fl In siu'h a man ' In "iiiiii- rasi's till' iiii'ii dn it scnrtlx and llif ininpany kni>w« nnthin;.' ahmil it. ;IS(i7ll. It' thr t'nm|iany knew almiit it. siii'h a man wniild iiavi' In nn, I --uiiiin^i' ,' ^'^•s, iindt'i' tin- |if«'s»'iit manaKfincnl. nt" the rnad. •'(Mt'(7l. Willi is sti|i«'riiil<>nili'iit ' Wm. Whytf, nt'tlif wi-stfrn ili\isinii. and Mr C. \\ . S[M'nr<'r. lit' the i-asti'i'ii di\isnii. •t'*iii7".'. llaM' ynii iilisi'ivcd ;;i'iii'rally thr crtiTl mi thr lahniiriii;,' iiii'ii > t' tin- drink iialii; and trallir is it a di'trimriit In llii'in ' N'i's, it i> di-trimciitai tn tlii-in, it wi-akciis tlii'ir aliilitv In dn thfir work. .■|S(i7.'t. .Vrc ynil lonni'i'ti'il with any lahniir ni;:ani/alinn .' Vi-s. .■1S)17I. What i.s till- hliK'-liniik ynu haxc in yniir hand iinw ! It i^ a ri'|Miii nt ,t man whii;;asi' his i'\ idt'in'i' in New rirniiswirk iM't'nrt' llu' LalHUir Cniiimi'-sinh. .">S(17"<. |s tlifii' anv part t'min whiili vnii want tnininic ! I waiitrd in ijiinii' tmni |a-i' J I 7. .'<.S(i7<'i. I''rn|ii W hnsi' tl'stilllnliy .' I'lcilll tl \i(|l'lirr nt' S. S. I'a I I I'l-i ,|i, aii'nlllll alit nt' till' l>niniiiinii Savin;,'s Hank. <,'. ( all yiHi ^'Im' ii>« ^iiiy iilra wlml in I In- |hii|iiii limi nl lln' |)i'ii|)li- w Im ilt|M>Ml tliiii mii |ilii- r.ii ii iii>,'» ill thr Mii\ iii>:> lunik ' A. Tin- |ir(i|ili' w hn imin' rr^jiihii !y to tlir .h.u iii^j^ li^nk ■m- I In it lliiit \« i- riill wiii'liiiiL; |)r t'piiii iiiiv iillii'i' lias.-*. <,'. Do tJii'V il"|iii.sit tiri(iiriil ly •' ^ I'M : «!■ Ii.im- ,i ^iirat many •li'|M>.' «li iiii' nuiiliiilv ■ iiiri' a \v<'«'k. \\ I' liHik tor tlii'iii. .it all imiiIs. nmi' ,i inniitli. ami it ui- liinl llirs ,iii' imt ili'im-it In^ \\i' kiinu (lii'iT is Miini'tliliiK U"ia^' w miij^ u itii ilinii .sniiii' sIckiicsH m tiniililr nf tlial kllpl. I>y till' t 11 »ll!\l \s : ),>. W'ImI is I llr lnUI">l ill'|lil^iisii •' .\ jln Mill inr:iii fur a vi'ai r <,». Vi's' .\. Tliiii' liiiiiilii'il .loll.u-.. *). Have many im iliaiiiis icuiiiil tlial liiiiil .' .\. N I's ; a j(ii'iii iiiiiiis Tin- Ini.il llntit i- .^I.'hiii, ■ ml a ^ri'iil many iiiriliaiiii's .iinl IiIiumi iiiu iiinpli' Ii.im' irailinl it. t,l. liiwliiitii liil llii'V na'li till' . •'I. IMMI limit '.' .\. 'I'IiiH' air a ureal iii.iiiy wlm ri-inlit ij it iii'tnii' till' iii'U n'uiil itiiiiis III .'^.'IIMI ill |Mi>ii ill nhi yiai < amr in fun r. .iml t\ liu >iiii'(' liavr put hi iiinni-y fiir till ii rliililii I,. .\ unal ni.'iiiN |ii'M|ili' Imm .i w ly lav iiiu liy iiiiini'y. In that way lIu'N >'\ailr thr law. <,>. l)ii many of that ija.'-M nf ilipiwilnih fi«i,miitly witlrlraw tlnii ilipiihil'" • .\. \ i-* ; in ihr "pi IliU nf till' year. \\ r vn ill, liiirinu thin mmitli ami tlir lir\l, prrhap.i. pay niit ipiitr a lai^i' a mi Hint III iniiliiy III Hiimr of llin.sr piiiplr, wliii u ill want In ImV a hnlisi' for tluiisrlvrs. tnl pi.'. Ity Ihi' ( 11 MUM \s ; <,•. I»n llicy Imy xaraiil lilts ? .\. Itiiililini.' jnls liy .Mr. FitKKii : •,'. .\ri' tlii-Nt' .sniiiN paiil nut In mi'ihanii s nr lalmiii iii^ pi I'I'l' ■' A- In iln ' ii'-mmi'i - 1 -pakr nt. 4il iiM prrft'f to invest Ilis iiioiicy in tliiit way iuHteiiil of in real III take tlit.'ir bank Ixiok with tliciii Liquoi* Traffic — North-we«t Territories. ]\y Mr. (■ vUMiv : I). Ah a rnl<'. iln you axk tlioM' |H!opli' wliat their iweiipulion Ik? A. We have to iiHk '.lieiii that \\ hi II they lirHt iie|io!o lliey think that when they are moving aroiiml they easier than a house? .\ Ves. Ity the CiniKM.xs : 1,1. What is the average expeii.se of a meihaiiie who is not a total alistainer ? A. The orilinary man. who if a moilerate ilrinker I mean a man who ilrinks a little hut iloe.s not get ilrunk -will tiinl it losts him -SI a week for his liijiior ; that is .•s.Vi a year. He will ailmit that, hut the unfortunate part of the la.se is that if the huslianil is fonil of lii|Uor his wife gets fonil of it too, anil the chances are that the I'hilii.eii will soon follow them ; if a man ilrink socially ami respeetahly he in liahlu to ■ Irink too miieh ami his ihihlreii are likely to ilrink too, ami in a very little w iiile there is troiilile in the family. I am intimately aei|Uaiiiteil w ith .some of those people anil I often go to see them. J{/f Judy MrDimnhl : lixfiTT. How much ftii'tlH'f ill lii.s tostiinony do you want to (|uoie? — I wimt to i-ead tlio tolluwiii;: : Hy Mr. Ci.xkkk; (.}. |)o those people who deposit in the savings hank have any ililKculty in getting other invest- ments for their money if they ihoo.se? A. They are not tlie kiml of pi ople that like to make invest- ments, for they have not got I'onliilenoi' in them. I ilirect their attention sonietimes to uorporatiou anil provimial lionils. iiml tell them that they hail hetter make arrangements to get uoine of them : hut not many of them take my ailvice. By the CllAlKM AN : What interest ilo you pay ? A. l''our per cent. Ky Mr. Ci.aukk : How long is it sinre the new arrangenientH were iiitroilueeil ? A. .Inly, IMS". people who have deposits in the saxingH hank look u]ion their investment; do How do the^ they think it seinre? A. They do : they have thorough eonlidence in it. (,». Do you have deposits in the .savings hank from people who reside in other countries? A. Yes: we have de|M)siti from the I'niled .States. 1^. Would that lie people who have lived here and have gone away? A. \en: and they keeji sending tlu'ir money to us all the time. Hy .Mr. Cak^iin ; i}. Are their families here ? A. Tliey are .single men who have fathers, mothers, hrotliers and sisters living here, and they keep up their eonneetions. Ily the CllAIKMAV : (,». I >o these people hope to eome haek ? .\. They intend to come hack. ;{S(!'« 7". I>iil you ((ill tilt' iittciitioii of tlie autliofities to tlie .sniugjiliiij? that was going on ? — -No, not very oftfii ; I notiticd them, liowevt'f. .■<,S(>7H. I)id you not consithM' it your duty to cail tlie attention of tlie Canadian Pacitif Hallway iiutlioritieH to thi' u.se made of tlioir ciifs ?-— Other people generally knew it. .'5.S(>7y. Did you con.sider it your duty to call the attention of the company to it?— No, I did not. .'1S(»80. Did you'ever call attention^^ to it ? In one instance I did. David Wiiitk. 442 "R: 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 k -.liciii that ant to read notliers ami SHOMl. Wlmt was done tlion ? — They iiotilitd tin- pdiif iiml told tlitiii tn In- inori^ civreful in .searching' the cars. .'J8()H2. All this went on until the one case you have nientioned occurred .' Yes. 3868.3. Did you notify the police ? - Yes, T tried to assist them. .■<8r)84. Still you found it impossible to stop the practice .' Yes. .'{8()8.'). Do T understand you to say that when a man partakesof intii\iciitiii<{ liipior to any extent whatever, even thouj,'h m<»st nuMlerately, the Canadian Pacific Hallway Company would dismiss him? So far as the rules ;;o that is the instruction if they arc known to do so. .'58f)8fi. Suppose a man takes a ^da.ss of ale at his dinner e\ery day would that \te grouiui for dismissal from the Canadian I'.icific liailway ? It would, acrordinj; to the new Superinteiuient. .1S()S7. Must the employees on the Canadian Pacific Hailway he total ahslainers? — Total abstainers get preference in all cases. ;J8(1S8. From your own knowledge are all the cmi)loyees on the Canadian Puitic Railway total abstaiiu-rs? — No, they are not. ■38()Hl). Are a proportion of then not abstainers .' ^'es, a \cry large ]>roportion of them are not. .38090. How did you come to bring this blue-book with you ? -I had this ]iarl of the e\idence looked up. •3809I. How did you come to bring this (iovernment blue-book witli you .' I brought it to (b'aw attention to that evidence. .■{8()92. Do you consider it gives your own \ lews ? - \'es. :9,3. And you brought it in order that the Commission might ha\e that informa- tion 1 — Yes. .38694. Does that evidence commend itself to you ? — I approve of it. .3869:"». Tt gives suppositious cases of a man spending .*! a week on beverages and another man !?! on going to the theatre and another that unich on horses and another .*1 a week at the shooting — are not those men spending their money on what they plea.se, and is it not their right to spend their own money on what they please ,' Hut there k only one thing that demoralizes, that is the drink. .38696. \''ou think J?! a week spent in that way demoridi/es '. Yes. .38697. Do you not know hundreds of men whouse the beverage in moderation ? — It may lead to immodei-ate habits. .38698. Do you not know hundreds of law-abiding I'itizens who use them in mrKlera- tion ? — Y''es. .38699. If those people choose to spend ."i'l a week on those bcM-rages and you deem them good citizens, where is the demorali/ation in that case ? (Ji'doyou think that, us a matter of principle, it is wrong for a man to take intoxicating beverages at all .' I think it is wrong. 38700. Then it is wrong not only to license to sell, but it is wrong for n man to tak<' intoxicating beverages? -Yes. .38701. It is on that view you founil youi' opinion ? Yes. JJy Rev. Dr. McLend : 38702. Do you think, from your observation, that drinking in moderation tt of i'iii|i|iiviiiftii to Im' h total alHlaiiit'i' ' Not until tlii'V nvt liiylicf ii|>. .'IMjOlt. Wlial «|o \iui iiiraii l>V liiulliT il|i f I liiraii as tlicv xi'l Uli. .'tH7l(>. Voii iiD'aii tlial it' a mail iMToiiirsi iciiiTal Maiiau{i'l liiyiirr |io.>H|MtllN|lllllt \ (III tiM'lll puny •'t."*?!-. Ila\r VOII to sjjfii an ayii ciih'iiI uIiimi \oii imiIit llitM'iii|i|oMiii-iil ut tl ( No. .'(> II -Jf iTf! '!'H'».MAS ('< »NNO|{S, ot' llanlV. «liulfsal<' li|HiM>il Us follows : .■Im7 I t. Ilow Iom;j li.i\f \ou if>*idid yon conn' licit- from oiif of the otiii'r prox iii"'<'s .' From Ontario. .■»H717. What part ! ('..Ihiui;;. .'i.*i7l'^. \'oii Miw till' working; ot' ( III' pi'oliiliilorx >.\>,ti'iii lific JH't'oii' Ui Ma\' last wIh'Ii till' lifi-nsf s\s|riM caiiif into t'oirc. and \oii lia\i' «i'fii tin- workiii,:.; of the licciiM' systiMii since, I siip|Misi' .' ^■(•s. .■JH7i'J. W'liii'li do you foiisidi'i' |in'ftralili' .' 'i'lii' licfiisf law. .■tM7'_'(). Was tlici'f iiiiicli sniii^;;|iii^' of lii|uor Ix-forf 1st Ma\ last' Tliat wastlir only way in wliii'li it could Ik- luoii^lit into tlic count r\. .'{S7l.'l. Was tlifif miicli liijiior lirou;;|it in '. N'cs. ipiitc a loi. '.\^~'2\1. Froi.i wliicli direction ; {•'lom liotli east and west. .■iS7L'.'l. Were tlieie liiaiiv ill aees w liere illicit trade was I'arried on li Th were ei(;liteeil at one time, to my know |ed;;i-. • . \\'li;il \<- the characler of till- litpior sold ' All kinds, laaiidy, |,;in and run .■iS7L'ti. Some wa.s ;'imkI and some had, I suppose .' Yes. ;t.'-<7-7. Mow inaiiv iilaces are there here now selliiiL' liiplor f 'riien- are four, thrr retail and one wholesale. .■iS7l.'S. We understand there is .•iiiolher lilii •re, thcCanadiah l';icilic ltailwa\ hot.'l ?- Ye: th .'«H7:.".>, So I' sllllllner. •f li<-( here are lour retail and one wliojesali That ii :WM). So far it IS earriei ! out as you can s|K-ak is the license law well carried out Ih I think IS well as a li<|Uoi' law can ne carriei d out. .■JS7."II. We are told that the liis|N-ctor of Licenses lives ijiiite •> distance away ! - Yes, he li\('s at Cali;ary. Me comes here iK'casionally. .■tS7.' iniulf it is of course his duty to liMik afl<>r them. ■'tN7.'l'(. !>id you find that under the old law the North west Mounted i'oli carried out in the Tcrritorie.s .' No. 1>AVii» WiiiTi:. #i 67 Victoria. SesHioiml Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 (lulv Hv«iirii. riUTIi'il "III .'I.H7:I*>. I >ii yoii tliiiik mu'Ii a hi\\ wmilil In' iiii|ii'ai'tii'ikl)|)' ! I tliiiik >|ti)M| in pifvi'iit lii|u. I'll \iiii kniiu in wliat '~lia|i<' lj<|iii>l' >mis lii'iiu;;lil in in tlir iilil ilav>, »as it in ki'its, I'a-k-.. At. ' In li.-mcU, ami il «as ajsn s|ii|i|H-(l inastuur \»'V 'tiiI Imtc and alno a>< (.'in^i'i' ale anil siula walrr ami il nmi>> |ilart'i| in I jir iniilillt' ot )ia('ka;;<'s of iiu'icliamlist^ litiil ill rnili-M of I'altlui^i'H. .'tM7'(7. I >ii yiiii kniiN^ anytliiiiL; alHiiit ijir use ut' otlin i'i)in|i<>iinils tlian lii|iiiir for Ih-\ i-i-ai;i' |iiit |Hts> s, I ini'an |iaiiikiili'r ami i'iiiii|iiiiniil'- i>l llial kiml ' I liaxr sn-ii it llsl'll. ;tH7.'l."<. W'lial iiaxr ymi mmmi iwol .' I'ainkilii'r. it-il ink, ( 'aiii|ilii-H s ( 'at liaii ic ( '•iiii|HMiiiil, .lainaira ;;in;;<'r ami nlliiT >.iiiii in i('j,'aiil tu tin' lii(iuir law willi a \ii'w to niakiti;: il inure x\orkal>lf ,' I think it is a mtv ;{(mmI law as it is now. //// Ji'rr. Dr. Mr I. < Oil .■l'*7l(i. ^'mii wi'i'f Ik'I'i', I Ml I >| MISC. Ill •loll- tile licrnsc law NM'iit into o|M-ratiiin ,' -Yi-s. ;{H7II. Wlial lilisiiii'ss ilid you t'ollow ' I k.'pl liot.'l. .■tH7l:.'. W't'iT yon a li(|iior sdli'i' ilirii .' Vi-s. I soM li(|iior. ;|H7IH. hill you si'll it o|icnl\ '. I ilo not consiiliT I iliil. .'tH7 1 1. Wrrr you I'NiT fonx ii-ii'd ? Vi-s. ;ts71"». IHdyoii liaxi- iinytliinj; to do x\ itii tin' Mnii;,'iilini; 'liat wriil on f I had to •-iiiimjflr Hoiiii' ill ordi-r to xi't lii|iior in hi'i'i-. .■'7.''il. l>o you ever sell les.s ? No, not piirticulai'ly, I u'ive luts axvay for I .iin mil |ii'excnted t'roiii .uix in;: a man drink. .■tH7i")L*. I think you said that the license law is |ii'o|ierlx carried out .' I do not. see hoxv it could he ciirried any iM'tter. .■lH7ri;t. ( Miier xvilnesses haxe (lecl.ired that it is not carried out? -lVrha)is t hey do not know alioiit il. ;tS7"iJ. What hours haxe you to close ; -Hiilfisat Mto'cloi'k amlSatunlay ni;i;hts nt 7 ami till- xxholesale places aie iiiinxved lo keep open until lU.-W. .'{H7.">.">. l>o all the places close up on Sunday ( Yos, so far as I knoxv. ,'JH7i"»(>. J)o you lieiiexe sale lakes place after proliiliited hours and on Sundays? — 1 dare say if a slian^'er wished to haxe lii|Uiii' he could l;»'' il- •■(87")7. I>ul do you heliexcthal t here arc no sales during prohiliited hours.' 'I'here may lie soiiic after i(.( o'clock at nij;lit. .■{H7">H. Hut you tliiiik the license law is well carried out as xvell as it can he .' Yes. .■JH7*>U. Uy that do you mean that no law can lie well carried out? -I think xxi; o\erstep the mark once or txvice. .iS7 xva.s sick and xxanted a Itottle of liraiidy, I xxould ^ixe it to him. •■J(<7tll. And xviial xxould you do if he xvas nut sick? I xxiuild not ;jive it to him. .■)^'7(i2. Would it he hccausc such an act xxould he auainst tlic laxv ? 1 xxould rather not carry on husine.ss on Sunday at all exents. .■|<- would |{i*t lii|Uor into tlu> couiitrv liy hoiiii- nintim. If tli<>i'4- wiw such n htw in force then* would Im> no dillirulty in ^cttin^' liijuor foun .Miinitohfi and from the cast or west, as wiih done In-fore, .'tH7*iH. Vol) mean that the |ieo|i|e would lirin^ il in in Niolation of the law .' Yus. 100 pdloMs came from Montana to I gitllon from Mritish Coluiiihiii, MaiiitolHi ur Ontario. .'lM7t»!t. It was all smU){J{le. Were the police sometimes moi-e vij{ilant than at otiier times ,'— No, hut they were not always at tin- same place. ;W77ti. You had to wivtch the jiolice and see where they were .' — Y'es. :iH777. I sup|)ose you would have to tind the town. 387'<(). If it is ])ossil)le to prohiliit it at one time is it not possible to do so at other times ?^ — The j)oliee might l>e all around the place at one time, audit would be imjMi.ssiblc to bring it in. ;iH7H7. Did you ever know a man who had not formerly In-en in the habit of using alcoholic licpiors and who had not acipiired a taste for it, who would u.se rese .so. .'{8781). Did you ever see any boy drinking them ? — I ne\er saw any boy drinking in this counti'y, that is Uiys between I- and II years. :58790. What about boys of 18 ! — I dai'c say I have seen boys of that age drinkinu licjuor. .■i87!>l. Is it a fact that those lirjuors of which you have sjK>ken were drank ? — Yes. And there was another called Ivxcelsior. I have seen lots of that drunk. .'{87!'2. An; we to understand that nu-n u.sed those- compounds simply l)ecause they iiad the habit of drinking alcoholic lii|uids and tlu-y must have soniething and when tliey could not get whisky tht-y would get tho.se litpiids? -I take it in that way. .■587!l.'?. You spoke about the four percent beer arrarigemeiit. J)id you sell beer at any time?- Y'es, we had a regular license. .■{87i)4. Did you sell anything else when you solil four i>er cent lieer? — Y'es. Thomas CoNNitus. 4ia liiMlinl tliiit ru|>|f wiiiild tlifl't- would IS WIIM (Idllf IllW I — Yl!H. Iiiiiitiihii (ir ■ciitiNe thm- llll', ItPCIlUHP icii mill to ot so IIUK'll to force ( — fan «'iisi(>r to I? -No, but <'K. it IS 8aid to •If. >r ill it. Imvt) Imh'Ii vo .seen tln' so at otiicr > iiii|M).ssibi<' )it of usin^' ink oi' till' iifd to tiiki' d desiri'il a y driiikiiii.' (I- drinking Ilk /—Yes. H-U«SI> lIll'V and wlii'ii iiy. sell bt'iT at lip 67 Victoria. SeHHiunul Papers (No. 31.) A. 1894 .■lH7!»'i. \Vlii»ky and brunily f Yi-s, i'v«Tylliin«. ;tH7!l<». Tbat was illicit Kale, of course I Yes. .'IKTUT. You tbink |>i'oliibiliiiii cannot In- enforced '. I tliink noi. .'WT'.tH. Dill you ever see |>erniits issued for brin^iiiK bi spirituoiiH li<|Uitrsl Y»'H. .'iMT'.Mt. |)ii| you liave a iieiniil for sjiiritnoiis liipior ! Yes. .'(SHOO. |)id you liave |ierinits often '. I su|i|>ose I lia\e bad lialf a do/.en ora do/en alto^etller. .■ly for lii|Uor fur inediciniil and iloineHtic ptir|MiseN / Yen. .'t'ooii liave proliil)ition as licence. .'iHSlO. Wliy ! It does noi lake any dill'erence to me. .'WSll. ho you mean til. I., , >u could >arry on tlie trad" illicitly or li'Kallv : 1 '.icy drank inoi'c formerlv tbaii I bey do now. The bi;,'lier tbe price tbe more tliepropli want to get it. .tHKlL'. ho you sell less iiiuler liocnMe tlmii you did iM'fon .' I am sure of it. W iuit 1 mean is tbat tbere is less lii|Uor drunk in |{anfrunilcr license I ban tiierc wa^licfuic , of course I sell wbolesale, and I would naturally sell a little more. .'$MHI:(. ho you tliink probibition interferes witb men's liberties f [do. I do not think a man who wishes to drink moderately should be depriM-d of it because another man iIim-s not wish to obtain it. .■{H81 t. What is a moderate drinker? One who takes °J or ^t drinks a day or ii liottle of beer a ilay. .■{SHir>. Or bow many more ! 10 or 111 would lie trohibition you think would interfere with the manner in which a man would spend his moiu'y'f Y^es, that is the way I look at it. liHSI'J. So you can be put on record as opposed to prohibition on principle: is that voiir position ? — Yes. By Judijfi Mr Donald : 'M^'IO. How do men iiilbctrallic come to overstep the mark in regard to selling during prohibited hours: is it owing to their desire to sell, or to the desire of people to iilitain drink f It is owing to the desire of | pie to gel drink. .■{S821. ho I understand that you object to sell on Sunilay because you object to i-irrying on business on Sunilay .' Yes, I object to carrying on business on Sunday. ;iHH2'J. Tn regard to Helling after prohibited hours on wt.k days, you do not sell liecaiise the law forbids it /--\'es, .'tSf<2:{. Ajiart from the law, would you think it any harm to sell in tbo-,- hours? — It" a man came in ;ifter hours it would not Im- out of the way to give him a drink so lung as he was sober, but I think it would be out of the way to give him anylhin.u if he was the worse of liipior. ^J^.SJI. At any time I su|)pose? Yes, a man the worse for liipior is of no benetii, to us. 447 ! I :l 1 1?< lilt Licjuor Tniffic — Nort'i-west Territories. ;. ))u I uiidor.staiKl that lli«^ |>eniiit.s were not ut' iiuhIi ^ikkI .' Tlicv were a liiimly tliiiijt.' to lm\f> in case tliere was st-ai'di made. ;{S>J(i. So far as gettin<; lii|Ui>r iutci the muriti-y vnii tliiiik they were not needed ' — You eould yet liinior in withmit tiieni. ;!SS27 I'lUt. Iiaxiny tlie liiniur, you wanted them to pi-iitect the li(|U()i- tVom the i>ttic-ers.' '\ e.-.. siiu liad to liave them The police were iialih- at any niomenl to i-oine in ,iiid '^eaich \cinr l.ouse and take the liijiior it you had no jiermit to coNef it. JU/ lie,: Dr. Mr Lend; ;i*^>l.'S. |)id yiiii sell on Sunday hetVx'e the liciMise law eauii' into t'oive ,'~-Ye.s, I date sa\ I diil .FAMliS I'dJlOTI'. of Hantf, on heintt iluly sworn, deposed as toliows: — Jij .hiiUji MrlJiiiiiiltl: .'iSS^i.*. Where diil you live hefoi-e you <-anie to JJanll' !-- 1 li\cd formeilv at Win nijit'U' ; iiuil iii-iLjinally , i-anie from Waltord. ;',ss.'i(i. \'(iii Well- visitinjjilu'i'e .'-Yes, duriii;; ihi'ee years : I was heic for a peiiud of L' yeai's and lU moiitiis, jireviously. ";is,s;ll. Wiien was that.' -I think I eami- in liSS.VHG. .'iSS;!:;. .\nd you remained '1 years and 10 month.s ? - Yes. :!s>ill."i. |>ii yiiu kno\\ aiiytlun;; in reijard to licpior iM'inj; liroutjlit in diirin<; that time .'- Yes, I heard a 1,'iMid deal ahout it. .'{.*(). .\rc yon faxourahle to prohibition as a )iriiieiple .' I am, if it is properly carried out. .'!SS;{7. Are you opjioseil to tiie lieeiisiiij; of the tratHc'f — ^'es, lieeause I think it i- a very injurious system in any country. ;l,> iiouiLced against those who put the bottle to their neij;hl)oiirs lips. MfSS-H. Ha\e you observed, .since you came here the last time, how the license system has worked'/ — Not jiarticularly. althou;Li;h ! think it is different to what tlic license system was in Ontario. • iS'^lL'. Is it better than that, or not so gooown in Ontario there woidd have to he a.s many hun (h'eds before you could have more than one or two licenses. Sol consider the system here is woi-se tlian it was there. .SS84'>. Did you notice how ti>e old permit .system worked ? — Yes. I tiiink it was a xcrv iiijurifius system because it w^in not fiirly carried out. If a man applied for a )iermit. no matter iiow lar<;ea<|uantity, he would yet it ; they were not at all particular. .■iss4t. So there was not much prohibition alK)Ut that system ? — It was not prolii bition nt all. li;/ h'i-. Dr. Mrhinl: \\f^t^\'>. So under the provision.s of tlie old system you tlnnk that people couhl gi't all the li(|Uor they wanted? -Piolmbly not all they wai'ted. If they had they would I IIOM.AS Con Nous. 448 ill'V WflV il Ot ll('t*(lt'(l .' ir tVuin the ti) coiiii' in •ef— Yfs, 1 ^■' ily Ml Will tur a iH'iiixl diii'inj; tliai •II il Ixiuitlit I is j)ru]ii'ily 1 think it i~ it is \\ rcili;; L'liusc it is it is il sill tu s il woe jii'ii the lii'eiiM' u whiit til'' ■eiisus sliow^ leiv art- Iim' niiiiiy liiiii s\'.steii» lii'fi- hiiik it wa- !ili|)li«'«l fill lliartit'ular. lis iiiit jiniiii |)lf cmilil .i:<'i thcv won It I 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 not hiivH us'.'d so iiiiiuyilei'iK'tionspurfhiiscd ill ciruf; siori's. I liasc kiiuw u (lru;,'^ists to mix iiiroliol ill wiitfr tiiid ui\f it ciiouj;!! tlavouriii^r tosiitisfy people who wiiiited wliisky. .'{SS4ti. Whiit compoiiiids do yon know the pe'i|iie used other tiiaii we iiave heard iiieiitioiied to-day ! 'I'hey used piiiii-killer iind e\-erythih;; thai i-ontaiiied alcohol. lijl Jndiji- MrDiiiiiihl: .'iSS47. How old are you '. -I am 7-'(. .■(H8IS. You have been an JihstJiiliei' how iiiiiiiv vefirs ? .'Iti years. 1 rec'olleet I took a iflass of lupior when I was sick, one preserilied Ity my son. |)r. ISretl. .■!8!^4!*. Then you never took it unless it was prescrilwd liy a doctor.' 1 lia\e iie\er taken it e.xcept in such case. JOHN .lAMES FKUUL'SON, of liiuilK hardware mercliaiit. on l)eiii- duly sworn, ileposed as follows:- — //// .///(/(//- Mi'hiiiinlil : '.\id in I'.inH'.' Fi\e years. .■188.")l. Hiifore that where did you reside .' In Ontario. 1 li\ed in Tc pronto a few iiioiith.s, liut my home wivs in Ker<;us, in the County of \Vellin<;ton. I li\ed in Toronto some months before coiniii(). Are you fii\ouiiible to prohibition as a |ii inciple .'- ^'cs. ."58857. Are you opposed to tlu^ licensint; of the side of li«|Uors on principle .' Yes, 1 think it is wronj; on principle to lic'cnse. .'t88."iH. Ho vou think it is ii sin .' -I think it is wronir. .'{88.'")'J. What do you think in lej^iird to purchiisinj; lii|Uor as ii bcNciiiye ; do\.iu think t hilt is wronj,' f il iiiii;lit not iie ii sin in some ciises. but 1 think il is a mistake in lit her Ciises. .■(88(>0. You wciuld Id a m;in s individual conscience diitatc ,iv lo whether it was wioiii; or not I -Yes. .■}88(il. In vour ciisc-, you think il is wroni; to tiike iit|Uor iis ;i beverage /- Yes. .■i88()L'. Since 1st y\:\\ last, wc understiind that there has I ii ii license liiw in ii|MM-atioii. Ho you know how many places -old liipioi before that lime in I'laniV.' I'er- liaps three or four in addition to ihi' liouses now licensed. A'// A''*-. Dr. M,-L'„,l: .■i88().'i. Were the men iiosv liolcfinu lit cii-^c- ciiijiii.'ed in llic illicit ii'.ide before I he lii'ciise hiw was pilssed .' Yes, i till ik si .■t88(i4. Have you noticed, iis a n'.drchne.i. I lie ellect of the liipioi- u-.idc on business Ueiieiiilly, whethi'r it is j;o(m1 or biid .' -ft is bail, beciiuse ii man spends his iiionex' nii liipior when he should piiv his debts, and he is not d)le to meet his payments. .■|8S()."). Coiii|iariii;; the stiite of tliini,'^ under license and previously, ciin you sav Milder which there wjis the more drunkenness ( .My own experience is that I saw more diuiikenness liefore, at all events I came across it more. Hrinkinj; wjis more popiiliir. •■!88t)(i. Ho vou tliiui. then there was an attempt made to breiik up the old law by -liowinit liow much it was violated? I do not know whether there was iiny or;{iini/.ed iileiiip' I do not think so. 'ii 449 -M :•!)* m I 1 ; Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. .■{8fani/ation was formed before the license law was jMissed. It has Ween very succe>sful in obtaining; members, esj)ocially with men wlio were in the haltit of drinkini;. ;{88())S. What is your opinion of j)rohil)ition in jjeneral as a|)plied to tin- country at lar<»e'/ -I think it rij;ht and desirable. .■58H()0 r>o you think it is pi'acticable /-Yes, if over the whcde country. .■{SS7U. In the event of a general prohibitory law Ix-inj; passed, would \ou deem it ri^iht that brewers and distillers should lie compensated for their loss of |)lant and ma- chineiy I No. .'(H871. Nor to licensed dealers either, I sujipose.' I think not. liif Jiidt/i' Mrhiiunld : .■SSS7l'. You have siMiken of one of the ad\aiitaj(i s of prohil)ition bcini:' that men were not able to obtain a supi)ly of lii|Uor legally .'Yes. .■{887,'V Have you ever thought of the <|uestion of a nnin's personal liltertv. as to wliethei' he has not a right to choo.se whether he will spend his money for be\ crage pur- |)oscs or anything of that kind, or whether he will spend it for recreation or relaxation purjioses, or whether he will |»ut it into impro\'emi-nts in buildings ,' - Yes. .■{SS74. You say you have consiilered that (|Ucstion. I )o you think it is for vou or foi' him to decide as to the purpo.se to which he will devote his money? — The result of prohibition would be impi'oveuu'nts in the right direction. ;'iSS7"). How do you know that men would spend their money for iniproM-inents and not on drink for beverage purpo.ses? I ha\e the hope that X\\v\ would do so. ">887oyou not think that the religious bodies and temperance 1 todies, etc.. Working on those lines have brought about, or have heljM'd to bring about, those changes .' — -Yes, thev have been working in that direction. .■t887!'. NVitli a certain measure of success, I suppose? Yes. :t888(j. W'e have learned that in the Tei-ritories here, comparatively r-eeently, tin- i.,egislative body has pas.sed a license law?— Yes. .■tis88|. I sujtpose it wouUl not be out of place to suppose that the member^; oi' that bodv would know pi-etty well the public sentinient in the Teri'itories ? Yes, I think the law is a fair indication of public sentiment. .■{8882. Have you considered at all what total |)rohibitioit mear.s, total pi-oliibit imi so far as manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liipiors for beverage purposes, in other words, that no person shall manufacture alcoholic li(|Uors, even for his own u.se, or bring it in from any other countiy, or to keep it in his cellar. Is that the kiufl of pi-ohi bit ion you favour ? Yes. < '.WSM. So that if a man on his own premises and for his own use aiuloul of his own material made alcoholic li(|Uors. you think he should be juuiished ? ^'es, that would \»- right, that would be my idea. .■{8884. Do you know of any country where such a law is in foi'ce ? — I cannot shv that I do. ,3,S88i"». hid vou e\er hear of any I — I nevei' made a sufficient study of the (piestimi. ;{888(). We have been told during these in(|uiries that there is one such country the Fiji Tslamls. Ik) you know if that is the case? - T do not know anything aliout it. ,luHX Jamks Fekocsox. 450 |i i 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■ i-iiuiitrv raiuiot s;iv ROBERT CEORCJK I'.HKTT. M. D.. of Bantf, .mi In'ing duly sworn, de|K.sed as olluws : - hij Jnilije McDonald : .'Jf^HMT. Ynu iin- a i)li\>ii.'iiiii, I ))elie\<' .' -Yes. , .'58888. You are a nicmlMT of the Legislative Asseiiilily nf the Xorth-vvfst Tt-i'ii- tories also?-- Yes. 38889. For wliat distrit-t?— For Banff. .'{8890. How lonj;; have you rcsi^ ? -Sinee Issij. 1 l(«-;;an iny praetiee here in 188(5. 1 .spent the winter in Winnipej^, attendin<; the ses.->ion of the .Medical Collejfe. .'5889:i. Then you have been in these Terr.turies Ixtth under a prohiltitory law and also under a license law ? Yes. .■588Jt."{. We liave been told to-day that sinu;i^liiiji was carried on under the permit system. l)o you know anythini,' alxmt liiat .' Yes, I do. I know ther'e was a ;;(mk1 deal of smuggling going on. .38894. From what direction ? I was \ifv before the railway was built, and I was Chief Surgeon dui'ing construction here. Of coui-se that »as lj«'fore there was any o. 38900. We have heard to-day that it was brought in in crates of cabbages anil tulis of butter ? — Yes, I have heard instances of that kind. 38901. When the railway was opened, from what ilirection did the liipior come? - It came from east and west ; it was easier to bring in that >\ay than from the south. A great deal came here by the (.'olumbia Ki\er fiom f>|>okaiie Falls and tlu^ direction of the Wild Hor.se Plains. A gi'i-at deal was brought in from l)onald and Golden. Several lots were captured while on the road, and captures were made here when the liquor was being smuggled in from Winnipe;;. 38902. Were those places to whi Iirought into the Territories. 3890't. Donald and (Jolden aie in the Territories' -Yes. 3890 5. Ifad 3'ou any opportunity of observing how the North-west Mounted Police did their duty, whether they honestly tried to discharge their duties? Yes, I think they did. I thought sometimes they exceeded what could fairly be called their duty. T am now speaking of the operations of the for«-e in the Ti-rritoiies. 1 had occasion to travel up and down a giMid deal durii'g the construction of the railway in 1884-S.") aiid since then, during the time 1 have practised, I have seen the police faithfully ilis- charging their duties. 1 remember, however, two cases in which I thought they Niolated the bounds of decency. 3890."i. In what way? I have seen a;i oiJicer. with luive Imeii tolil to-day l»y a witness tiiat li<|Uiif was l>niu;;lit in at ont; tiintt on Pulhnau cats and that there was right of seaieli at tliat time hy tlie jHtliee force. Ai'e you able to say whether it was owiiij; to such eases as that oecuffing that le .systems as you have known them, tlie |>ermit and the licensi; .systems, which do you think preferable? I think the license system is preferable to the old .system. ;J8!tlO. I do not ask yuu a,s a ileml)er of the I^egislature what iiiHuenced yourself personally, but taking the I.«gislature as a Inxly, I desire to ask whether, in pa'-sing the license law, that l)otly may have l)een considered to have repn'sented the feelings of the people of the North-west Teiritoriei It svas the conceiitmttHl .sentiment of the i)eople that intlueMced the Legislature in pa.ssing that law. ;18'.M 1. The i|uestion has l)een raisetl to-day as to whethei-, owing to the In.sj>ectur being so far away as Calgary, the present law cannot 1m> enforceinted ! That is a point on which 1 myself have thought very strongly. It was one of the strongest objections iirought against the permit system that less men were taken to enforce the li«|Uor law. ."iStU'J. We are told that several amendments to the law were intriKluced last session but that the lj«'gislature closed the .session abruptly, and they were not carried through .' No amei\dments are necessary to mr)re rigidly enforce the law. .'l^ilKt. You think the present law is tpiite sutticient ? Yes. I do not beliexe the peoj)l(^ of the Territories wantetl a law foi' revenue purixises, but they wanted a law that would at tlu' same time regulate the tratiic. '.W)\ 1. .\ great deal has been said alM)Ut the permit system, its u.se and its alleged abuses, and we have lH*en told that the (iovernur, in i.ssuing permits, was intlueuced \erv nmch by the representations nuide by prominent people from all sections of the country in favourof parties who applied for |>ermits. Was that the ca.se or not? — I know it was the case. There was .scarcely any other way he could do. The Lieutenant-(iov ernor of thes<' Territories probably six or eight years 'igo, may have had a very good idea of the people here, but within the last three or four years the condition has changed. It became impo.ssible for him to know to whom the permits wi>i'e i.ssued. He took the precaution of asking for a reoonnnendation by sonie one. To my minil he adopted ii plan that was very wrong in askipg that recommendations should be matle by members. .'iSKlo. You think it was placing the memliers in n false jiosition.' Yes, f always took that view of it, and it was the sanu^ view taken by many others whether rightly or wrongly. The view I took was this ; That I am not selected as .•! public censor over any onti's inoi-als oi- as to whether they slioulil be restricted oi' not in any way, and if anyone in my district, asked fo. a permit, I iwver refused the ap|ilication. I represented one man as much as another, and if 1 was asked to reconnnend jiersons for permits nn the ground of U-ing a representative, I did not hesitate to make recommendations. I dip not think I ])Ut my.self in the position so that it might be said that I was elected for the purpo.se of grantiii,,; permits. I would not be cho.sen by the Lieutenant-CJoxernoi- probably, but I am cho.sen by the j)eople and ! represent one as well as the other. ;!SiU(). Might it be said that the e.xtension of the peiinit system was really in accoi-daiu'e with the wishes of the people? Yes. .'{f^917. It wius ill response to the t*.)li). Take what is meant l>y total prohiltition or national prohiltition, a law ])i'ohiliitin>; I In- maniifafturt', importation and sale of intoxicatini; liiniors for iM-xcrayc |iurposcs, such a law as would prevent you or any one else manufact iirin<; in his own house and foi' his own use alcoholic heverajjes and would puinsh him for so doini;. I 'o you lieliexe >uch a moasure would he j)racticable of enfoireinent in Canada .' I think it woid0. You would fa voui- a trial of such a measure as that ? ^'es. while I would not favour a local or pi'ovincial prohibitory law. •J81(2I. Would you favour such a law accompanied with the ri<;ht of personal search and domiciliary visits ; -1 would not like to undertake to prosecute. .■{S;(2i;. How would you carry out such a law/ -I think thei-e are a ;;reat many thin>;s of a \'ery complicated nature that would rei|uire to he studied I'ai'efully in cndea\(iurin;; to enforce such a law. .■!8((2."{. Do you think the peojile of a country such as Canada would pass such a law .' If they wei'e all like myself they would ti'v it. .■{8!li!l. Is it because you think jirohibition is desirable as a principle '? — 1 think it would be better for everybody. .■{.sil-J."). Then you wo\dd pass such a lav and ;;i\e it a fair ti'ial and see whether it Would succeed or not ,' — I think thei-e is a very stronj; temperan<'e feelini; in e\.'ry com- niunity, and 1 believe that if that was taken care of and proper opjMirtunities ;;iven. the sentiment would develop and ^^row. I believe the ^jrowth of that sentiment would be a natural condition. .■JS'.t'if). ]>o you think a prohibitory law would lead to the development of such a sentiment oi' would lead to a re\olution of feelini;.' — I think, as I have seen it, there would be a revtilution of feelinj;. but we ha\e not seen it uniler pro|)er circumstances. .'581)27. I>o you know whethei- such a law is in force in any country ? No. I ha\e heard yo i .say that such a law was in force in the Fiji Islands. ^(8928. I'nderthe Maine law you are perhaps aware that li(|Uor is not allowed to 1h' kept for sale, but you may have your own cellai- full of it anil jjive it away to your friends, as you jilea.se. as lonjj; as you do not sell it '. 1 do not think that amounts to anythiii;,'. .■i8llL'!(. You tlinik there must be a total banishment of lii|uor .' Total |irohiliition of the manufacture, if it is jLfoing to be successful. .■t8il.{(). You think it should be |)rohibited from beinj; ke|)t forpri\ate use also? - You would liaxf to permit it for medicinal and art pui-po.ses. .'{8!);U. How do you propose to enforce such a law, what machiiieiy would you use .' - T have not fjfiven the subject sutticieiu lhou<;ht to practically formulate a scheme, but I think that with the manufactuiers fairly dealt with and the manufacture supjiressed, a respectable man'-*' -turer would not enilea\our to infriniie the law. It miiiht Iheii be carried out. Of c.(Ui>e, there is always the daiiLter that manufacture woubl l;o on in the hands of less .scrupulous parties. I am not speakinu as a teetotaller, and I do not wish t earriwl out t I do, .■i893."». Then in your o|iinion a mere majority would not he sutticient .' — No. .SHO'iG. You Ix'lieve the trend of public opinion must be very str'ong? — I do not think u bane majority should adopt such a law, whicli would l)e revolutionary in its operation. .■589.57. You think that with such a ti-end of public opinion as you have intlicated and with sutticient executive action on the part of the authorities, such a law would Ikj made a success? -I think so. •■589."58. You would hope so, I suppose? I wotdd hoi)e so. ■{89.'59. In case of the enactment of a ;;eneral prohibitory law. a law to prohibit the manufjictuiv, im|Hirtntioii anensated liy the Govern- ment ? You are in a branch of business and changes might occur in the tariff that would cause .severe h)ss to your business and in fact destroy it. Do you consider that you would have any right to compensation? — I do not think that stands in the same position as this does. While a change might occur in my business to- court to which referei..e has been made make pro- hibition impracticable ? Tn viewof thatdecision the stub of any jiermit would protect any quantity of li(|uor so long as it did not exceed the quantity sjiecified on the permit. If the juilgment nad been different and if it had been held that the permit could HoHErcr io»'. I Ix'lieve it would liuve phice«l the jMjliw in i|uit(' a diflV'reiit jMisition .so far ii« prusefutions were miironu'd. .■J81M6. Th«Mi are we to uiideiHtatid that the i-epresentatives nt' tin- jH-opie tlici not st(x»p to nimJe exaniinution or tiiiisidei- whether men wlio used jterniita used them ri>;litly, or whetlier the seller merely wanted them to proteitt himself ( - They were iisketl if they ivw s|Mut nothing on beer. .'i8it4S, I)id that go into the treiusury of the Territories or to the rt^venue of the (Jovernment .' - It went into the Territorial revenue. .{81)41). As a matter of fact a\idson and the other candidate, and that was the onlv place made an issue. .18951. It was not so in this district? — No. I do not think a temperance candidate would have taken a great many votes. .■{8i).")L'. What do you mean by tenipi'rance candidate ? One who canu- forward pledged himself to the jirohibitory licpior law. ;i8t)5."?. I>oyou mean a prohibitory law or such a one as jn-evailcd under tin jiermit system? -That would depenil <»n the individual candidates. .■{S'.tr»4. Was that old .system pi'fthibition or permission? It wa- both. It was pro- hibition with pei'missive clauses. ."WJ.")."). Which was the more observed, the prohibitive or the permissive clauses? — Tlio.se whose ted. .■?8!).'')i). There was a spjusm of feeling occasionally'- I believe the* (iovernor vvas generally iiiHuenced by the desire to ascertain the current of public sentinu-nt. When that current wius interrupted he stopped issuing permits, but the current came again .uid carried him until he stopped again. .■JSydU. You think the present license system is preferable to I lie old system? — Yes, [ consider it so. .'i8(M'il. I)o you think tlit; difference l)etween the two systems is a difTeieiice Irt'tvvecii piiihiliition and licen.se or between one kind and another kiiul of licensi , in this, that the jiresent liceii.se system is now controlled by liceii.se coiiiiiiissioiiers and t le other sy>tem was simply carried on according to the will of the Licuteiiant-tioveriiiT. who personally issued licenses : while at present these licen.ses must be issued by a Ixwly of license ••oinmissioners. Ts that the difference ? —If you put in that way I cannot see a great difference. The will of the peo|>le is expressed in one ea.se, while the preiiigative of one man is manifested in the other. .SSiMi2. Do you think in a country like this with the present {)opulation it is prac- ticable for any oHicial to julminister a prerogative of this kind ? I do not believe it is ])ossible to tlo so judiciously and w '1. .'58!)t)."{. Speaking iilxiut the smuggling business and thi' searching on Pullman cars, you have said that after a certain period the othcers were not )ierniitted to search the i'ullmans. Do you know whether, after that prohibition of the right of sean-li in PuU- 455 \ J; ml ^ t ^ ' Liiiuor Traffic — Nortli-west Territoiies. iiiiiii e seiii'cli«»d? — T til). I know UN a niattiT of fact they did so. .'iHJXil. Kxjilain. If. for instance, any one who was known to lie a whisky smuggler and tlit'v were all known, and ytiu could jiut your Hnger on them -was on board you would see that he was sioing west and he would have his liquor down to-night. Perhaps he went to Anthnicite. He would go down by train and have liquor delivered at Cal- gary or Morley or some other station. He would generally get into tlie car and go at once to the iM-rtb wliere he had liquor and would go to l)e(l. He would stay in bed until he came to Itonald where licjuor would be obtained. H<^ would go along to Laggan where the police were stationed. The police were on the tj'ains and were keeping close watcii. I rlid not, of course, know all their secret ways and their mode of operation, but I iiave been up and down sufficiently on the train to know that officials were on the watch. Men would c.irry liejuor in the baggage cars. l)etween the cars, in different conqiartments of the cars, in the berths they pulled down in the colonist ears, in the Pullman cars, in their own satchels and if the train hapjiened to be late they made up l)erths and the liquor would be put into the bed. The litpior would be thr'-wn off at one point. The police, as 1 understood, had a |>ei-fect right to get on lM)ard the cars and keej) a watch on the travellers. I do not believe there was a point on the I'oad where there was so much li<|Uor shipped as at Laggan. Jt was not only shipped in two or live gallon lots but even large quantities were shi|)ped. T remember one case, T do not remend)er bow many gallons there were, where there was .^oUO or .*()00 worth of liquor brought down in a car of lumbei-, and it was captured. Every possible means wen- taken to prevent the lic|uor Ixting brought in, and also every possible means were taken to bring it in. ."uSiH)"). Speaking of the license law now in force, do you think it is working well .' —I think it might lie l)enetited l)y Inking amended in some particulars. It is a new- law. No doubt it will be found tiiat there are some conditions which requii'e to be amended in some directions. .■>!S!t()G. This is, of course, a small comnmnity enjoying a coi.siderable share of the summer trad»> : how many people have you here 't — Two hundred. .iS'.Mw. You say there are live licensed places here, four retail and one whole.sale. l)o you not think that is a large nundier for a place of this size ? — T rlo. .■>Sl)tJt<. !><) you know whether those licensees observe the prohibitory clauses of the license law .' I do not suppose that they absolutely ob.serve them. .■$fre satisfactory to them, and they will lend theii' aiti and a.ssist to carry it out better than if it were another law. .SSy"."). Have they done so? I think they have. .■i8!)7fi. Will you state instances where there have Ijeen violations, and where the people have given their aid to enforce the law !— I do not know that I could state any instances, but the general sentiment of the people can be pretty well felt. KoHKirr (;i:oif(iK Hhett. 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 s?— Tlif iw wliicli 'his law, tlipif aid .HSi)77. Do you uiulerstand tlic >(«'neral sentiment of the itfojili' to |)ictfr a hirnsf .system to the old system anil to prefi-r this license system to proliihitictn .' [ tliink ther« is a very larjje majority of tlie peopie in tiie Territories wlio jirefer this license system to the old system. I also believe there are a lai';;e niimher who would prefer |ii'oliiliitioii to license. .WDTf*. Do you think it would liave been better' to have taken a vote of the people before substituting; the lieen.se law for- alleged pr'ohibition, that is between license pr'oper- and pi'ohibition pr-oper' / — f do not think it would ; I do not think it is the best way to take the votes of the people. .'{Si(7!'. Do you think it would have been iK'ttei- to have made the (piestion of pr'o- hibition r<'r.><«s license an i.ssue at the last election.' In the jjr'catei' portion of the Territories active rrreiusurvs were takerr towar'ds that end. Meetings wer-e held and a 1,'i'eat deal of force and enerjfv wer-e exfiended in endeavour'irij; t(» make it an issue, but, as [ have explained, no one was willing to take hold for the purpose of beinir the charri- (liou of the prohibition side. ."iiSllHO. Wei-e ther-e not othei' <|uestions r-eifar-ded as important and essential to the welfar-e of the Ter-ritor'ies that ovei-shadowed this <|uestion and everything else ; was tlier'e not the question of r-esjionsihU? governnrent involved/ — I cann(»t .say that there was. As r'egar'ds the (piestion of tempei-ance, ther-e was a temper'ance candidate at Qu'Apj)elle, and he was about the only one. Out of twenty-six nrember-s ther'c was urdy one who ])osed a.s an oppoirerit to the .systenr of r'es]ionsibl(' gover'nmeirt. .'58981. Have you obser-ved whether- ther-e has Iwen nror-e or less dr-inkirig under license than befor-e ? I can oidy speak fr-om my knowledge of the distr-icts of itantl', .\nthr-acite and Canmore. With the.se places 1 am somewhat fanriliai-. Outside of them I may say that I have been in Calgar-y (|uite often sin(-e the election and ha\e been in Hegina and lived there for some time. I think ther-e is ver-y much less di-inking here now than thei-e was under the old system. .'{898l'. Is that tr-aceable to the licensing of the ti-ade her-e oi- to the intluent-e of the temperance societies her-e ? — T think there is an element irt Ixjtlr tending to bring about that I'esidt. The largest element, perhaps, is that ther-e ar-e fewer- places selling. Take this town, at tme tirrre T think ther-e wer-e as many as twelve places selling. .'J898.5. What ha.s become of the people here who .sold illicitly and who are not selling now ?- Some left the place, .S8!)84. Ar-e tho.se who now sell the same as those who sold illicitly ? -Some of therrr are the .same people. .{898.'). Do you think thei-e is any illicit trade here at all ? — No. .S8986. Do you think there is le.ss li(|uor .st)ld rrow tharr there was befor-e '. Yes. I lielieve ther-e is le.ss sold now. .58987. You think there is le,ss sale even, although the trade is permitted now ? — Yes, I think there is less. There are not so many people here now as in years gone liy, the r-esident population has decrea.sed. That may account for- the diminished t:oiisump- lion in some parts. In r-egar-d to the mines, T may say that I do not think there is ver-y irruch liquor .sold to the miners. And another- thing is that there ar-e less places where liquor- can bo got, though there ai-e (juite enough .■18988. You ar-e pi-opr'ietoi- of the Sarntarium ?- Yes. .'58989. Ha\e you a license ? The licensee has a license. .'58990. Then it is not under y(jur management ? No, the house is managed by Mr-. C'art'r-ey. He nranages the hou.se for me ; but the licenses of the bar- and of the billiar-il rooms afe outside of him. .'58991. Are they in the establishment her-e? -Yes, a portion are. .'5899:i. Did his establishment sell under the four per cent beer plan ; Yes. The i^anitarium anri the Canadian Pacific Railway Hotel had special privilege's gr-anted to ilicin that were not given to arry other hotels in the Territories. .'5899:5. Was that done by the Dcmrinion (iovernmenf? It was brought aliout by the Dominion (xovernment. The prerogative of the Lieutenant-Cioxcrnor- hail to be excrci.sed and he had to be the consenting par-ty, and by the Depart rrrent of the Interior it was consider-ed wise that lieer and wine should be allowed, arui ai-eordingly both this liotel antl the Canadian Pacific Hotel were allowed to sell wine and U'er-. 467 1.; Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. ■'{HU'.M. Atf) tlhmi* (ill till- pliu-(!s (hut Huld .' Vi-h, n(i t'nr us I am iiNMiri*. /ly Jiii/yf McDiittnld : 3r<0il*i. Alxiiit the t*Mn|M*niM(-<- |M'iif. .■{SIH17. Only lint- in the whole Territories / Yes, and there are 2(» inenil)er«. :IH!(9S. You have Im'bm askele p>vernnient and other issues. Was there anything to prevent the prohiliitionists, if they wished, placing a man in the lield who was in favour ot res|N>nsil(le ^overiunent and also a prohibitory law ? No. HSiMt'.t. Hut you have said that you do not think they would have l)eeii suecessful if they had iMTn put forward? — I do not think they would. •■>J)000. Yon think the larger nuniln'r of the people were not in favour of prohilii tion .' -1 ctiuld not say. •'S'.tOOl. What is your opinion ! ^ly opinion is thai there is a large |H)rtion not in favour of ]iroliil)ition, hut 1 ean not .say whether there is a ma.jority or not ; there is in this district eertaiidy. ■'MI0U2. If there liatl lieen a uuijority in fiivour of prohibition do you think tlie\ would have endeavoured to earry their sentiments to a legitimate eonclusion liv plaeing caiKlidates in the Held ? I do not think there is a nuijority or anything like ;i majority in favour of local prohibition. ■°t!)UO-'i. I am speaking of prohibition such as is asked for ,' No, I do not think thcri' is a majority in favoui' of prohibition at all. .'51)004. Have you any means of knowing, taking the Teri'itories as a whole, wlmt the sentiment of the people woidri be in !-egai-d to the i|uestion of prohibition t -1 donm think that \ have. :?9()0"). You have been aske would give the matter niore careful consideration than could be given to it on a jKtpular vote of yea and nay, especially when taken on an abstract |)ro[)osition .' Yes, I think they Would probably arrive at more sensible conclusions. .'{iiOlO. You have sf)oken alxatt liquor permits being issued to cover li(|Uoi'. Po I understand that peojile would have large quantities of li(|Uor brought in, not on peniiii^ but snmggled in and that from this stock they would take smaller (piuntities wliich they woidd keep to sell, and have permits to cover them ? Ye.s. •VJOll. .And they exercised care that the quantities were within the limits spec i tied ! Yfti. •'<90I2. You think permits were IssuhI for that purpose? That was counnon talk .'HKM.S. In your o])inion wiis the greater portitm of the permits i.ssued used legitim ately ? Yes. •'59014. I think you have explained that, although the right of search on Pullman caiN was tiiken away, still the j)olice hiul power to watch and trace the liquor if po.ssililr ; and that li(|uor was yet carried on Pullman cars ? Y^es. .■$901."). Mr. Stewart, of the Govermnent Park, has stated to us that in his opini'in the |)ark would be better under section 19 of the i-egulations as regards the li(|Uor tralli'' than under the present law. What is youi- opinion in regard to that matter! Of coui'^i' section 19 refers to the North-west Territoiies as well. If 'Slv. Stewart tliinks iln' Ho»Knr (iKOKfiK Hhkit. 458 ^1 57 Victoria. SesHional Papers (No. 31.) A. 1894 ftioii : tliil ; caiulidtit)- Imm's. \l iiiur« tlii' to prevcMii I t'nvciui' lit 1 sm-c»'s.st'u I ut' {iruliilii I'tioii not ill tln're is ill tliiiik tli<'\ icltlsioll I IV tiling liki- M think tii<-i<' *iioU>, what , ]_I do tin! hi|Uoi- tt'iitlic in the puik shoiihl Im' phioMi un(>|iui-tni<'nt of tlx- Interior and itn i'nt'or«i>nient ciirrit-il out hy thi^ otIicialH of the imrk, 1 think, (M'thiips, he is i|uit44 ri^'lit. .■JiM)l(>. You fcf«'r to this iIhumo t That chiusf of iouihc tonncctM it with tin* Ti'rrit^irieH. .'{'.IUI7. lit* siinpiy nifitnM that the hi-cuschiw should vi'Uv to thf TciTitorit-M hut not to tiitf H(H-ky MountJiinH Park and tliat it should tx- h-ft to In* rt'^'ulati-d hy clausf \[> of the Act n'f«'rrinx to the park? That would Im- more satisfai-tory than th»' coniiilicatj-d jHisition in whioh tin; matter n'sts luiw. .'JitOlH. Is it conipiicatcil at pi'esont I Yt's, owin^ to that i'lauK«>. Tiie I )f|)arttn<>nt claims jurisdiction undrr that claust', anos<' a fin'thcr tax of .«<'><). Thcr*' aif |k'o|iIp within the park who Iwlicvc that thi' l>fpartnu-iit has no such riijht, tor the reason that the section under which this ri>;ht has U'cn tlainied has Iweti fc|M'aled hy the (NissinK of the license law foi- the Territories, which certaiidy applies tf» the park as well as any other portion of the Territories. .'I'JOIO. Is that matter now liefore the cotn'ts / Yes. .'tyU2(). Which would you prefer, that such a re<{ulation as that should l»e passed iiiid applied to the pai'k, or that it should Ih; in the same position as the rest of the Territories under the license law? I prefer that the re^'idation should hi- applied to the park. .■;itiiii on Pulliiiaii if jMi.ssililc ; his opinion li(|Uor tratll<' '. Of c«>uisc thinks ilic -Yes. -Yes. WILLIAM .McNAH, of ManiF, theological student of the Presliyteriaii (.'liuich, nil lieiii;; dulv swom, deposed a.s follows ;— /};/ Judge Mi' Donald : .'{•,(02"). Are you a minister here?—! am a student. .'iitOlMJ. Have you char>;e of the Presliyteriaii Mission at llanft'.' Yes. .■i!>U27. I>t) yiai know anything of the smuggling that is said to have taken place in I liis district ? No, I do not. .' st'fii iiiyMelf, that th<* .MuiiiitiMl Pulicc kt-fp lii|iiiir mil ill many rtisfx. .'t<,M).'l.'i. |)uyuu Hiiy tliiit till* |Nilic*Mli(l nut try tu k«>f|) lii|u iiic mid tin- wuniin^tliui I nt'i'd not Im- so (uirticular. .'i!K).'Ki. Mav»! you olisfi'viMJ tin- lirt'iisf law in this district ! Yes. .■11K).'I7. Wliat do you tliiiik of it ', From what I have simmi of tin- clliTts roiinil hen* it liiiH t-crtainly Ix-fii iiijurioUM. I Iiiinc hhmi nii-ii fail flat on tlio sidewalk and lir tliciT for a lon^ tiiiif. I ha\<- seen thciii thrown out of litir riHtin diMJis and lie on tin sidewalk. .■HM);i,S. |)id you see such o<'curreiM'es Ixifore the lieeiise lass eaiiieinto force? I did not Heo such cases, hut I su|i|iose such things hase hji|i|ien(Ml iM'fore, hut \ liase seen men decidedly under the inlluence of lii|uor liefore. ■'{{)():{<). Did you attrihute that condition to the |irohil>itinii in the law or to the lax administration of the law as r<>^ai'ds its enforcement ! It was the lack of enforce iiient. .■M)U10. Having minglwl with the |»eople and having ohserved them and conseised with them, do you heliese the people, so far as you know them, prefer a license system to well enforced proliihition / I have a l•i^llt to know the opinions of the people in tlii- community. When I heard that the Uoyal CuniinissioM was comin<; here I tliou<;ht I would take steps to inform myself in rej,'ai'tition. .'J9044. I do not see any objection to having the paper in ; but I want you to tell us what you said to the people ? What I said to the people was this : That I wislied In hnd out from them wjiether they were in favour of national prohibition, or whether they were in favour of the .sale of li(|Uor. What I was endeavouring to lind out wimwhetlici the people were in favour of national prohibition as against license ; and 1 am now jui' |)ared to .say what their opinion is. I tried to get to everylKHly in the community. 1 may .say that there are about 100 people in the place and I found that S(J were in faviiiii of national prohibition. 1 have here the name of oie- jier.son wlio asked for continental prohibiticm. I think that is one thing that we in this country have nothing to >lo with. In my round I did not come across more than half a dozen |ieople who wanted liceiiMv .19045. Then HO people expressed themselves as preferring national prohibition tn licen.se? — Yes. I have not some of the names of those lielonging to the temjieraiur societies, as it was imjxi.ssible foi' iiie to get around to every one. JJi/ Jiidye MiDitmdd : .■$904(). Are those 80 names of males? They are all the names of grown up peit| you r)'|Mirt tlii* |Mili('i>iiiiiii to IiIk nlliccr ? .\. .'i'.M ».■>(». ||av(> villi any iilijiM'liuii 1)1 >{ivi> tlif iiami' >>i iIh' uIHcit wliu tnlil ynu liti WII.S iTtiNiii'*>riii'.| I would U- |irouil in ijoiii^ so, liiit it is lik)' lliis : I do not know wlii'tlirr it is |>ro|i)'r to do so, U'caiisi' if ii was it tliin;; that I siioiild do, I NKniild do it. I know tln' man is of siicli a rliaraitpr lliat li*i Would deny it, ln'caiisc lir is on<- of tlic nun on tlic foro'. •'{'.lO'i I . Vou did not t'i'|ioi't to till' sii|ii'rior ollicrr wjial oi'i'iiiiimI, and that llio con- staliic had Hiiiil whi'ii lif i-nforfcd tlif laws Ii'ohiliition aiTordiii); to your slatt'int'iit, proliiliition did not ln'coiiic an i>siit' at tin- last flrii jnii, and that tin- majority of (he iiii'IiiIn'I's n-turnrd were in favour of liccnsr .' I can tril you, I can f,'i\c a rcawin liiat is <|uit<- clear. At the |in-.sciil time the people are doin<,' a little more thinkin;;, and one of the ends your Coinmissioii is ^oill^ to accoinplisli is to make the peopl)> think. .Many II iiiim (h'inks and does not leali/e what he is doin!.', hut when the ipiestioii i.s lirou^^lit lioine to him and when he sees tint injury done to families and society, hecoiiii's to tlie conclusion that national |>roliiliition would lie the \ery liest thin;;. .'t!)0.'i.'(. J)r. Itrelt has told us that this quest imi was tried to lie made an issue at thu polls, hut lliiit the jieople did not make it an issii . Can you iiccouiit for that? I can- not, for I was not here at the time. Ihi' on could lia\e lirou;.'lit it more stioii;;ly Ix'fore them than .Mr. ypenci' ? — I think he is a very slioii,i; adxocale. y/y Her. Dr. Mr Lead: '.V.^O'U't. Is it a fact tliat tluM'epreseiitative of the tlistrict is in favour of national ohiliition? |)oyou think that the people know that their representative is in fax'our lit that Hiid is, therefore, in accordance with t heir feelinu's / 'I'lien in the minds of the people in rc;:ai'd to that ipiestion iitl e uncertainty Kkv. |)u. McLKiM). Concernin!; those jieople, was there any indication that they would sifjii a document, I mean t hose pco|i|" with whom you conver.sed alxiut prohibition. So far as [ am concerned, as a Coinniissioiier, I am jierfectly willin;,' to have the ducu- iiicnt fileil. JuDiiK Mi'DONWIJ). — I oliject on the ;;round that the sentiiuoiit of the people sliould be obtained from themselves, and if they wish to have their opinion entered in any other way they should petition Parliament. WITNE88. — Kroiii what I know o^' the law court>, there has not U'cii a ca-so tried in the North-we.st Territories with which liipior has not had .soinethin;; to tlo. The Commi.'jsion adjourned, to meet at Victoria, Dritish Columbia. 461 ):ii m •. bl Victoria. {Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 :' /'('< i.jHSf i as*: Ho\. .rOSEPIl ROYAL, Licutoiiant Oovornor of tlio Nortli wost TorritonVs, who \v;is niiiil)le to iipjit'ar before tlie t'oiiimissioiiei's (it l{ej;iiia, li'iviii",' heeti called away on ollieial business, sul>se(nieiitly forwarded to His Honour Judge McDonald, Acting Chairman of the Coniniission, the following stattnnent : — T (jOVKRNMKNT HOISK, JiKtiiNA, January 7th, 1893. Honourable Mr. Justice Hkkhert S. McDonald, Urockvillc, Ont. SiH, — In compliance with your request, I have the honour to forward you herewith the following statement for tiie information of the Royal C'onnnission on the Li(|uor Tratlic. At the time of my aj)]iointment as Lieutenant-Cio\'ernor of the Noi'th-wost Terri- toi'ies, 1st July, 18S8, I found thi' jiopulation of the Territories j)laced, as far as the liquor tratlic was concerned, in a very extraordinai'y position. Acc(»rding to some, the country by the Act of 187-") iiad been vii'tiially given a system of pi'oliibition, and if the full binetit of the law, so interpreted, was not enjoyed by the settlei-.s, it was attributed to the perver.se action of the Lieutenant-Governor. Others argued that Parliament ne\er had any such intention; that the object of th(! law of 1875 was simply to allbril fui-ther protection U* the Indians of the olains against the consequences of the introduction of intoxicants into the Teri'itories ; that sue); a law !iad become obsolete, quoad the li(juor tr.allic, owing to the complete change ot circumstances, ana that so long as the Act remained on the Statute liook it was the duty of the Lieutenant-tiovernor to carry its provisions into full etl'ect, however imprac- ticable and abhorrent the result might prove. Of thest^ two propositions, the latter seems to be the oidy one supported by the facts and by the actual meaning of the law. It will be my aim, thei'efore, in this paper to show the circ nnstauces undei' which the law of 187.") was adopted, the innnense benetii it i;onfer'red upon the Indians, the pi'otectioii it all'oi'ded the Canadian l';icitic Raihva\. the radical changes in the .social condition of >he country whit'li I'endered tiie applicaticin of its ])ro\ isions extremely dilhcidt, the precautions taken to pi'event illegality, ami finally how i)ublic opinion compelled Pai'liament to vest in the Legislative Assendily of the Territories the powei- to legislate ujion the li(|Uor (juestion, and tlie adoption by thai body of a high license system. Some statistical information will also be gi\en tending to show the state of crim- inality to be found in the Territories during the " Permit system.'' 1. The Law. Now, what was the law prevailing in the Noi'th-west Territories up to last yo.ir respecting the liipior tratlic, and what were the circumstanct.'s uniler which it was adopted 1 As early as 1808 the Dominion ParlianuMit. pas.sed an Act to prevent, under severe penalties, the Indians all over Canada from being supplied with intoxicants; in 187") ii was further enacted tliat every j)crson in the North west Tcii'ilories wiis prohibited to manufacture, import or keep in his pos.session any spirituous li(iuors. The North-wc~i Territories Act of 1880, which was a consolidation of former Acts, reiterated the sauic provisions in the following terms : to wit : — (S. 75.) " No intoxicating li([U()r or intoxicant shall be manufactured, compoundcii or made in the Territories except by s])ecial pernnssion of the (Jovernor (lentra! \'.\ Council ; nor shall any intoxicatins; lii(Uor or intoxicant be inqiorteil or bi'ought into iIm' Territories from any Province of Canada or elsewhere, or be sold, exchanged, traded m bartered or had in possession therein n ; llu- law tliti not prc- clude liin^ tVoni iloinj; so ; lie was not cirruinscrihod in his action. At the same time, he I'oiild not systematically refuse to issue sucii exemptions, and thereby ij,'nore the intention of Parliament. Had the intt>iition Ween to maki the law prohihitory, the laiij;uaj;e of l! statute, no douht, would have heen (litlerent, arui the exemptions to lie made l>y tiie |jieutenaiit-(!n as the white population had reachetl the thousands. About the same time, and with a view of stopping; at any cost the ravajjes caused amonitst the Indians by the American nnii traders, as well as to assist in carryini,' out the North-west Territories Act, the Dominion (ioxeriiment provided for tlu' cr'cation of a ]>ermanent force of .Mounted I'olice to be stationed and do duty in the Territories. .\nd it is only proper to say that such was the activity displayed by this force in tlie ■iii]ii)ression of the li(pior trathc, that within a few yeafs the whisky snmiritlers were tracked everywhere, their nefarious trade was seriously impaired and a fatal l)low struck at their criminal raiils. Th" efforts of the missionai ies to chri.>-tiaiiize aixl ci\ili/e the Indians became less arduous and more effective, and a new anil peaceful contlitiun of affaii-s prevailed in that \ast country. II. Irs Hicsi i.is. III. Soci.M. Cii.vNcKs. For seven years and more the la«' of IS7"» !i;id brout(ht about all the j^ood roidts iliat the lef;islation had anticipated, when in I8t Canadian Pacific liail- uay Company placed under coi. tract t!ie e'tion of the Canadian Pacitic Itailway to Calu'aiy in ISS.S; the sett lenient of l',astern .\ssiniboia was coiniiii'iiced and pushed foi'ward \ i^oi'ously, while small set tlements were bciriy; ra)iiilly formed alonutlie main line of liie great railway and on the North S;,skatcliewan. The dominion Census for ISSO ,sl gives a total population for the North-west Ti'rritories, comprising the area known as Uupert's Land, of .")(!,+ ((), divided as follows ; — Indians 4it,f7-J Whites, including half-breeds (),'.)7l Very little reliance, however, can be |ilaceil upon these figures, .as they are greatly "•xagtiei'ated, and in most cases a mei-e guess work of the census enumerator. It is iiiil safe, therefore, to take them as a term of compai'ison. N evert heh'ss, an idea may be formed of the rapidity with which immigration followed ihe Canadian Pacific Paihvav, bv tiie figures mentionetl in the Uominion Census of 463 Liquor Traffic — Xortli-west Territories. ItSH") ,111(1 IS'.IO. Tlie pitpulatiuii eiuimi'iated ill tlie iH'iivisioiial districts of Assiuiljoia, Saskatchewan and Alberta, exclusive of the Peace Hiver and the Mackenzie Territoi'v, is estimated t'i)i' liSM.") at : Whites 2S, 1 Dli Indians :.'U,170 Total 4S,:{(1l' - Tlie Doniinitin Census, 18!tO '.(1, TKI). Loud and continuous were \\w complaints of a large and most desirable class ut innnigrants after they discovered that their supply of wine or beer dejx'nded altogetiier upon the good-will of a (ioverinnent otHinal. Public opinion assei'ted itself against thi~ law in various way.s, and a daily expei'ience showed the extreme ditliculty of carrying ii out. No wonder, therefore, that the granting of " permits " or exemption gradually assumecl the character of a regular system under my predecessors in otHce. What had l)een intended as an exception by Parliament soon overshadowed the law itself and became the rule. It was, of cour.se, to be expected that I'arlianient would amend the law, and tiiat new provisions would be enacted whereby eit.ier total proliibi tion or some licensing organization would sup(,'rsefle the indi\idual :',ction of the Lieu- tenant-(iovei'nor ; this indeed would have been done, liad it nat been, as it was reiioiicd publicly, for the agitation of tiie prohibitionists all over the l>ominion. Meetings werr held, sti'ong language prefai-ing stronger resolutions, was used : a certain class of I>reachers raved and denounced : false statistics were invented by ignorance and accepted storm raised that no attempt was made to as true l)V tlii' majority : an 1 such th Par lament m t lie matter. It d t seemed to Have oeeii an axiom with man IV tl lat III! H-l Tei'ritories were a til country upon v\ iiicli to try an (vxperiinent, the ap|)lication of fai ful theories of social economy. I5e that as it may, the fait \y, that at i{egina, in the month of July, 1 88S, the " Permit system " was in full blast. Jlie law in ri'spect of liquor prohiliition liad degenerated into the most unsatisfactory and crude licciisini; organization possible, unfit for a free people, and painfully retrograiling as compaicil wi th tl H' methods which statesmen are now (lev ising foi' the regulation of th 'I'he crucial problem of tiie new system seemed to be, how best t( IS social ev II 'ainst till' d ag aliuse made of its working. Uules had been already a(lopt(>d : new ones were added, ol which ex])erience had taught the necessity, and as gr(>.'it strictness as possible was exer cised in their enfori'i'iiienl. The following is a sumniarv of the r(igulations observed in the granting of lii|uor permits : 1st. No application for permit to iiii|)ort intuxicants "for domestic use" v,;i- allowed, unless recommended either by a Magistrate, a member of Parliament, a Meiiiljii of the Legislature, or a well known citizen of standing and respectability. Ho.N. .losKPii Royal, 464 ^^f the applicant, to the acconnno- dation of the hotel, to the days and hours of closing, ermits, beer being free as well as wine imported for .sacramental purposes. No change was made by me in that respect. .V fee of ten cents per gallon upon lieer im|>orted for sale was imposed upon all success- ful applicants ; antl in that manner a small income wius created for the Territories. 1 iie(?d not say that a statement of the receipts derived from that source was at the begin- ning of each session of the Assendorter and consumer. The |)ublic was nf)t slow in showing itself in favour of the new policy : ami an attempt having been made in the Territorial Assembly to elicit a hostile declaration, the motion was lost, only the mover and seconder voting in its favour. \1. Pinr.ic Oi'iNioN AssKKTs Itski.f. P>ut it belonged to the general election of the fall of If^Kl to demonstrate in an uii- i'i|Uivoeal manner what were the feelings of the electorate concerning tlu.' settlement of the ([ue.stion. The Parliament of Canada having in the session of the same year vested ill the [.legislature the jxiwer to pass Oi'dinances in resjx'ct of the liijuor trallic, the (|iies- lion was at once put at issue before the electors. The result wa.s, that oidy a small i^roup of prohibitionists were returned, and the Ij«'gislative A,s.send)ly, after canjful de- liberation, adopted a high license and local o|ition ordinance, which came into ojieration on the 1st .May, 1H9L', and is to-day the law of the land. 4fi5 Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories. VII.— Statistics. As tlie above considerations would not be found complete without attording souic nu-ans of comparison, I have compiled from otlicial documentn, statistics concerning tliu number of " permits " issued in each year, as well as concerning the criminality of the Territories during as nearly as possible a corresponding period. STATEMENT "A." Yeivr. Total Litjiior and Beer Permits issued. Total (iallons of .Spirits. Tot«l Beer. 1883 1,874 2,457 l,7<)l 3,559 3,()«3 4,233 5,4-24 5,7rv4 5,970 4,451 5,404 3,«82 6,604 6,979 8,561 11,660 1-2,417 14,;U1 1,468 1 884 3,565 1885 188H 5,3-22 1-2,672 12,86;') 1 887 rtl888 •25,767/) 1889 ll'2,448fc 1890 97,116/- 86,9-2(i/i 1891 a. Lager beer was allowed to be imported for sale in August of this year. b. Note by the Commission: — Tiiese figures represent only the 4 p.c. beer. By comparing the figures aljove given for 1886 with those of 1891, it will be sei-ii that while the population more than iloubled during that time there is a marked decrease in the issue of permits, as well as a slight proportional decrease in the number of gallons of spirits imported. I quote now from the Statistical Year Book of Canada, published by authority, tlif following summary of the number of indictable offences tried in the Territories from 1885, the year of the rebellion, to 1890 : — 1885 118 1886 53 1887 15 1888 49 1889 57 1890 92 u 1^ ^ From the criminal statistics compiled from the Magistrates' returns received in Lieutenant-Governor's office at Rogina, from 1886 to 1892, the subjoined figures given ; — 1886. 1887. 1888. 1889. 1890. 1891. •189-2. Drunk 74 67 67 116 43 .58 103 Assault 43 34 46 67 .35 54 46 Liquor law, violation of 105 67 82 7S 46 40 21 Stealing 25 40 39 54 ,37 10 8 (ianibling 10 10 5 -24 2 (» Vagrancy 11 11 5 17 22 10 15 Prairie tires, poisons and game Ordinances 5 6 14 33 16 18 -.'0 Masters and servants ordin- ances 31 16 -28 -27 12 13 8 Killing and wounding animals. 4 3 9 2 2 Other offences '24 39 -22 45 50 81 .57 Totals 332 '293 317 463 -263 -286 -278 th.' arc *The first three quarters only. Hon. Joseph Royal. 466 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) a. 1894 Ti. proportion to the estimated population it may be said tliat the North-west Ter ntones, as regards summary convictions, offer the lowest standard of crin.inalitv not only m Camula, l,ut elsewhere, for nearly every year ahove -iven '""•"ft"t>, not tl,» mI 'f ' B '°*'*' """^/'' *"* ''O'^^'*'*'' received from tlfe North-west Territories at the Manitoba Penitentiary for a period of six years :- Ij^u- Males. Keiiiales 1888!;.;;!;.' '' '* 1889 , ' " I89() 'J «» i«9i ;;;;;;;;■;;;; f' » '«»2 ;;:;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; I3 1 It will he noticed that the above statement does not mention any female convict l^ing sent from the Territories to the Manitoba Penitentiary, prior to Uie year im I have the honour to be, Sir, Ydur very obedient servant, J. ROYAL, Lieutenant-Governor of the iVorth-went Territories. !- 21_30p* m 1' ' r" [4 i Sv m: 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 MINUTES OF i:VII)KX(JE. BRITISH COLUMBIA. VICTORIA, November 17, lSf)i>. Till' Royal Commission on t'lc Liijuor TniHie met here this diiy. PrexHtit : ■IviHiK McDoNALJj. Rev. Dk. McLkok. ROBERT BEAVEN, of Vii-tonu, on lu'lng (kily sworn, deposed us follows : — Jii/ Judge McDonald : 39057. You are Mayor of the City of N'ictoria, I lit'lieve ? — Yes. 39058. And a Member of the Provincial Leyislature for this city ? — Yes. 39059. What is youi' occupation?—! am out of business. 390t)0. How long have you resided in British Columbia or V'^ancouver Island ? — In liiitish Columbia for a number of years ; T do not recollect the number, probably 30 years. 390<)1. During that time have you resided alttjgetliei- in V^ictoria / — No; 1 have icsided here permanently since 1 886. 3900:2. During the time of your residence in this province lias there always been in force a license law in I'egard to the liquor traffic? — T think .so. 39063. Has thei-e ever been a prohibitory law in force in this province? — Not that I am aware of. 3906-b Never within your recollection. Was there ever untrammelled sale 'I — Not to my knowledge. The ijuestion of dealing with the liijuor traffic was not lirought to my attention very nuich until I became a member of the Legislature. 39005. During the time of you'- residence in British Columbia, have ynu found any change to have taken place in regard to the social habits of the people respecting the use of into.vicating liquors as beverages'? Is there more or less used now than formerly ? — T certainly do not know. 39066. Have you noticed that as the population has increased, the social habits of the people have changed, so that there is less drinking than formerly? — I cannot say that I \jave noticed any change; at all events, I have not noticed any change of matiu'ial impor- tence. The Customs-house would give tliat class of information I think. 39067. The Customs I'eturns would show, of course, the quantity brought in ; but I am incjuiring as to the habits of the people, whether more intoxicating liiiuors an; used than formerly ? — I cannot express an opinion on «.hat subject. 39068. How long have you been Mayor of the city ? — Since hist January. 39069. How long luive you been a member of the Legislature? — I think about 21 year.s, ever since Confederation. 39070. Taking the population as a whole, as you have known the people, are they sober and law-abiding ? — I should certainly Seav so. 39071. Are tlie business interests of the city in a prosperous condition? — I tliink so. 469 Liquor Tiattic — British Columbia. 39072. A IP you able to say, fioin your knowledge, wliether the business interests of the city have l)een, or are k) any extent affected by the liijuor traffic in one way or the other? — 1 think some one more actively engaged in business would be better able to answer tliat ((uestion than I am. 3907.'V Are you accjuainted at all practically with the working of the licen.se law ? —Yes. 39074. How does it work ? — I sit as a member of the licensing Court. 3907*). For the purjKwe of granting licenses? — Ye.s. 3907G. Then you sit in the Court as Mayor of the city ? — Of course my expeiiente is as Mayor ot the city, although I have been Mayor only since January last. 39077. Have any licenses been granted? — If ray memory serves mti rightly, two or three. 39078. Have you an Inspector of licenses for the city ? — No. .39079. Who looks after hou.ses that are licensed? — The police. 39080. Has the city an officer who issues licenses and receives fees? -Xo; the ^license Commissioner attends to that matter. 39081. Then he is the executive officer regarding licen.ses and the payment of fees? — Yes. 39082. Of course he would l)e able to give statistics in regard to the number of licenses? — I can tell you that. 39083. How many are there? — I desire to explain to the Commission that there arc different classes of li(juor licenses in the city. We have, ffrst, what are known as the old liquor licenses, which were introduced a great many years ago. The holder comes to the collector once every six months and pays the license fee. lie does not come befoie the Licensing Board at all, uidess there is some complaint made against the house by the jHjlice or somebody else. That .system was changed a short time ago. 39084. What fee do those people pay ?— Each pays $100 every six months, or $200 a year. Those are called retail liquor licenses. The system was changed last year, and all licenses issued after April 30, 1891, are issued differently. 39085. What is the present system? — The licen„es are only granted for six months : and in order to obtain a renewal, the holder must come before the Licensing Board, and must have the license granted to him, or refused, as the Board think fit. 3908(5. What is the fee he pays ? — The same as the other retailers. The business is the same, the only difference being that the holder has to come before the Boarfl. The holder has to advertise for 30 days before the sitting of the Board that he intends to apply for renewal of license during the ensuing six months. 39087. On what guarantee is he allowed to sell? — He is allowed to sell by the police on the retail liquor license. We have those two classes of retail liquor licenses. Then we have ;, restaurant license and bottle license and wholesale license. The restaurant license allows selling, as provided for in the Statute : " Any person who keeps a otlierwise. " restaurant anil supplies beer and porter and wine witli meals and not i^^ That is a restaurant license. .39088. What is the fee for a restaurant license ? — $25 every six months or ■S50 a year. 39089. Do they have to secure a renewal the .same as the retailers? — Yes, if the licen.se had been issued after the date I mentioned. There are two restaurants holding retail licenses. 39090. What is a bottle license ? — It is defined in the Statute in this way : " Kvery person holding a retail license issued under section I or 5 or 6 of this section, who sells, liarters or traffic, by retailing unfcrniented, spirituous or otiier li<|uors in a shop, store or phioe, other than in a saloon, ale or beer iiouse or other houses of public entertaiment, in quantities of not less than a reputed pint lx)tlle, at any one time to any one person, and at the time of sale wholly removes and takes away tlie licjuor in quantities of not less than one reputed pint bottle, foreai h itouse or i)lace wliere such vending is carried on, tlie license fee for such shall not exceed .'i?7"> for every six months." The fee is 875 the highest rate the Legislature authorized. Robert Beaven. 67 Victoria. Sessional Papors (No. 21.) A. 1894 M9091. W'liat is II wliolesale license? — It is defined in this way: " Any |)ci'»<'2(H> for every six months." ■f9095. .''islOO is the fee charfjed, we understand ? —Yes. .'5909G. Would you class the hotel licen.se as different from the retail license .' — Not particularly, they nr<^ the .same. 39097. Will you kindly f»ive tl.e Coimnission the number of licenses'/ — Retail bar. licenses : hotels 31, .saloons 47, restaurants 5, retail liiiuor licenses l', making a t(jtal of S"), payinj,' 8100 every six months. Bottle licenses and groceries combined, 3, payiiiy •■*75 each month. Restaurants, selling beer, porter and wine with meals, 3, each payini; 825 every six months. Wholesale lii[Uor licenses, 21, paying !?-")0(Nich every six months. Total, 107. 3909S. What is the total income l — I can give you a return of it. 39099. Is that a return for 1891 ?— No, it is a return for 1S92. 39100. Are you idjle to speak with regard to 1891 ? I have a return here for 1^91, which was handed to me, and the figures differ slightly from your return? .\ re they more or less. 39101. They include six l)reweries.' — They come uiuler the Dominion License Act. 39102. There is no local license exacted, I suppose. Do you know whether there are .six breweries here ? — No. •■>9103. Are there any breweries? — Yes. 39104. Any distilleries ?— No, T think not. 39105. The figures for the return of 1891 are as follows : 29 iiotcls, at S'-'OO, .85.SO0 17 saloons at *-200, 89,400 : two restaurants tit 8200, 8400 ; 8 wholesale at 8100, 8800; 14 retail at 8100, 81,400 ; 4 restaurants at 850,8200: Total 818,000. Six brewories payment not given. 3910t). There is a material difference Ijetween the figures, I observe? — I fancy they are correct. 39107. I notice from this return thiit the income for the city from this source is put ilown as 81i^.000? — That amount is very likely to be correct. 39108. There has not been a very large difference in the current year? —No. It is very difficult to obtain a license in Victoria just now. .39109. Are there retjuisite preliminaries to be complied with before a license is obtained? -Until the last session of the Legislature the principle of local option was in vogue in this city. For instance, if you wanted to obtain a license for a building ■situated as this is, on a corner, the applicant would have to obtain ii certain number of property holders living in the block and three adjoining blocks before he could get .1 license granted to him. That system continued in operation until the last .session of the Legislature when a new clause was inserted in the by-law. This year there \\ ere no licenses issued. I will read the clause to you. "Notwithstanding anything contained in the Act, any ap|(licanl for a licen.se to sell wine, spirits. Ipcer or other fermented or intoxicating liipior in an hotel, containing not less than .'{() rooms, used or t-) he used for hotel pur))oseH, shall not l)e required to ohtain a reipusition or petition signed liy honsehohlera, for the granting of such license, hut application for siu'h license shall he nuide direct to the Board of Licensing Commissioners not les.s than IM) days liefore the sitting of said Boaril, thr.iugh the Clerk of the said Hoard ; notice of .such application shall he puUlished in some newspaper circu- lating n the municipality and the said application to lie mailc and posted up in a conspicuous place 471 k Liquor Traffic — liritish Columbia. ii|iiiie of at ifawt ■'<(• ilays before the nittiiig of huIiI Hoard, and the Hoard of LieeiiMini; ColDiiMssioiiers xhall have power to grant Hiieh license for the term of one year or to renew tlie same ii|ion the expiiation thereof, if, in the opinion of a majority of tlie ISoard tiie making HUeh grant oi renewal i» in the pnhlie intereHt. '■ In the event of the premiHen named in such lieenHO being destroyed byflre, torn down, removed or closed for tlie piir|M)se of rebuilding or improvement, it shall be lawful for the Hoard of Meensiiig Conimissioners to grant to the hohler of sueh license, permission to sell liquor and the authority ot tlir license temporal ily, in any other preudses in the immediate vicinity thereof during such rebuilding etc,. I5nt after the rebuilding or improvement of the formerly licensed premises has been com|)leted, pidvided the owner desires to obtain a license for the same, the license shall be furnisheil in the name of the owner (if suitable person) or of any suitable person satisfactory to the owner, sucli suitability to be establisheil to the satisfaction of the License Hoard : but in ci'Sij the owner shall not rec|uire to continue the license for the originally licensed premises, then the Hoard may Jiermtt the licensee to transfei- the license toany preiiusea to be approved of l)y the Hoaril." Tliere is a vast ilitt'tM-eufe between that clause and the clause in the Statute. This pi'()\ ided tlmt no pi'titioti shall be necessaiy befofe grantinj^ a hotel license, and it iuitli(>fi/.e> tiic iiiantiii;; of sucli a license foi- 1 2 months and allows the Coiinnissioner^ to rt'iie.v it. It was undoubtedly a very decided ciiange. •lOllO. Have you any provision in your law prohibiting .sale to minors '? — Ye.^, that is a provisifni of the law. .■>9111. rnder tlie statute law of this province, sale may not be made to minors? — i'i 19 ! 19 <' If .■)91 r.'. Is sale jn-ohibited on Sunday ? — Yes. .■{911."). And are there any prohibited hours? Yes. •■|9114. Have you any law preventing the sale of other articles with intoxicating Ixncrages. that is to say separating the sale of groceries from the sale of liquors ; or may a man wiio sells groceries have a license to sell intoxicating liquors ? — No ; I think lie cuuld not, at least without violating the law. ;59115. Then it would be contrary to law? — I think so. Of course I shall be glalc wlin arc coiistiintlv Itct'orp tlie jiolii'f courts and arc sentenced to slioi't terms and at'leiwards a]i|)ear apiiii, and SI) keep up tlu; promenade the yeai' i-ounil .' I am afraid we liavesome sucli persons, l)Ut nodoultt tlie Police Maijistrate will he alilc to give all the int'orniation you wish on that subject. .'J!)Il'7. Ft" yl.'5r). Then you are not troubled with tJiem so far as the use of intoxicating liijuor is concerned? -T do not think you ever set- a drunken Chinaman on the streets, liut of course the police records will show the facts. .■iyi;?0. Have you had any experience whatever in tlie law ?^None whatever. ■'iOl;!?. Knowing this ju-ovincc and the chai'acter of the a prohibitoiy law, a law to proiiil)it the manufacture, intoxicating li(|uors for beverage purposes, could b(> practically carried out, so as to .'•uppress the use of those liijuors? I think it would be a \ery ditlicult law to carry out. ."iDl.'JiS. In case of the enactment of such a law, do you deem it right that bri'wers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of plant and machinery ? — You have asked a question which a man should considei- very carefully before expres;-;ing an opinion. 1 confe.ss that I have not considered the tjuestion sutliciently to be able to answer it. MDl.'i'J. Are there any suggestions you could make in regard to the license law as it exists at the present time .' -l)o you mean as it exists in the niunici[iality ? 39140. I mean amendments that would nifike it more workable and jilace it in a lii'tter position ? — Our Provincial Legislature can amend the law as it, wishes. 39141. That is (|uite true. — 1 certainly think we would impro\e tli.it law if that Section which I read was obliterated and the old one substituted. The License Itoard, I may remark, is a body in regard to which you have not made any imiuiries. ;5914'_'. We should be very glad to hear any suggestions that you could offer? — The License Jioard consists of the Police Magistrate of the city, the Mayor, «.)■ dj/ifio. and an alderman appointed by the Municipal Council. I do not know whether there is a different jirovision in the other provinces or not. •■?9I43. Taking your license law as a whole and as it exists at the present time, do you find it work satisfactorily ? — With one exception I think it works well. The law as regard to hotels should be placed as it was formerly. the Working of a prohibitory population, do you think im])ortatioii and sale of 473 '■ 1 -I, Wi.>i !h; |5. Hi . Liiiuor Traffic — British Colunibia. % A'- r. />/•. Mchod : '.\0\-H. Is till' liftMiKi! law iiH it cxiHts tii-diiy a n'i'««nt edactiiicnt ? -Yes, it has mily 1m'«'ii in t'uiTc (liiriiiu tin' last t'fw yt-ai-s. T liiid a great di-ai to do with that oiiactiiH'iit. .'{'.M I'l. Ill what rcs|M'rt docs tJif |irt'Sfiit liceiisi' law diU'ci' t'luiii the pn ii wishing to ;,'*'! a licciiHc I'uiild .siiii|ily gn lict'iirc iht- Hnard nf liiccnsc Curninissiiincrs, and tlit'v would grant a lici-nsf, if thry wished todo sn. Tlu; wrong in that system was, that it' you wanti'd to ohtaiii a lieeiiseyou simply had ti> say so, and the Magistrates wuiilil grant it, and you paid the fee and obtained tlie license. .'I'.Mlli. ^'ou had charge of the legislation, I lielie\-e .' f intnxluced the Act uiid carried it through the Legislature. .'{i)147. t^aii you state what suggested the change .' — Wiiat suggested it to my mind was the fact that tlnM'o were licenses granted in residential jiortinns of the city, where the people were very much opposed to them. I thought it only right that the people living there should ha\e some say in the matter. .'?'.tl IH. Was the change proposed with the understanding that the old sysleiii worked harmfully? — It worked \-ery well after a time, liut like very many other things, as circumstances changed, it hecaiiie necessary to change the system. It liccame so tu my mind, and the majority of tlu^ Legislature agreed with me. Mr. Hohson, who was a .Member of the llou.se at that time, aided me in hringing aUait the cliangi', althiiii;.'li we were on ditl'erent sides in the Legislature. .'i!*l I'.t. I>o you know whether |)ul)lic opinion had changed in this resjx^ct, that whi!rea.s public opinion was quite satislied with the old system, it was then thcaigiit that restrictions should he placed on the tra(le?-"l think the feeling was that there were enough licenses issut;d in N'ictoria, and that they sluiuld not he so easily obtained as they were before. •'I!)1">0. Has the license .system limited the number of places for sale of drink in Victoria and throughout the Province,' I think so. 30151. Do the petitions necessary to obtain a license and also other jii'titions connected with the license' law, apply e(|ually t{<'l tliK i-xact «>{•■. .'ilUr*'.). Ilavoyou iiolicfd wlwllici' tin- licciiscos yciit'nilly ohscrM- tin- imivixions i(t' tho license lawf I do not exactly understanii you. .'J'.MCiO. Has it come til yoiii' attention wlietlier men lioldin^' iieenscs %iii|:ite the |ii'ovisions of tlu> law ; do tlicy sell after eei'tuin hours, and on tlie .Sabbath.' The li'w ays they shall not sol' (jn Huntlay. .'tiMdl. l)o they oi lerve that provision of the law ? Sti far as my knowledtjo mios. I hey observe it. .'t'.llti'.'. Have \ iolalors of tli(^ law lieen jiro.seciitod .'- - Yes. (»f course that law has iinlj" been in forie for a short time ; I do not think over a year. It is .said by some that that law jjivos restaurants and hotelH an advantajfo over those holding' saliKin licen.se^. .■|'Jir)."{. lla\o you noticed whether the restriction in the number of places has lessened the amount of driidvini; in tlii' connnunity ! — 1 cannot say. .'V.tMit. Have you noticed whether the li(|Uor tratlic and the liipior haltil atlcct ihi? social life of the commuinty, bonelicially or otlierwi.se f I am thrown \ery little in the wav of such matters, so that I am liardiv alile to e.vpress an opinion on asubject of that kiiid. .■t!tl()."i. J lave \ou formed an opinion as to wln'ther a ;;eneral prohibitory law. that is a law to prevent the manufacture, importation and sale of iMtoxi<-atini; liipiois fur i)e\('ra<,'e purposes, could be enforced: mil if so, wliether it woidd be beneliciai or injurious? J cannot express an opinion on that subject. I ha\e not been east for a Ltreat many years, and T am well aware that conditions chan;,'c very materially in a very few years. .'19100. Have you noticed whether j)ublic .siMitiment in re;,'ar(l to the drink liabit .md the drink trade has changed within your recollection in Hiitish Coluinbi.i .' .\s I have explained, I think there is a tendency to restrict the number of license^ issued, I think, so far .'is I can fjauf^e ])ublie sentiment, there are (piite enough licenses issiu'd in \'ictoria. 30IG7. What is the population of Victoria '. -About L'.").000 : some say it i- -.'(i.OOO. H91(')8. And there are 107 license!- issued here / —Yes. .S!)l()',). That would be 1 to '2i)0 pelaces are managed. By JiKhje McDonald : .'59171. You have expres.sed an opinion that the Sunday laws pre.ss heavily on the restaurants, hotels and saloons ?- Yes. .'59172. In saliwns there is moi'c business carried on after jjrohibited hours .' Yc-;. 39173. Are there billiard and pool rooms also? — Yes, and sale of cigars. •'5917-1. Is no provisi<»n made for ordinary meals ?- -I fancy there is fooil jirovidcd, if it is necessary. 39175. Hut not unless a customer wishes it .' — No. 39176. \''ou hiave spoken of licenses running on under the old system without being renewed, and .so becoming, as it were, coiniected with the individual. In case of iles- I ruction of the house by fire or otherwise, and the man not rebuilding, would the license t lien exist ? — In the Statute the Board of License Commissioners have power to authoii/.e I he holder of the license to sell somewhere else. 39177. You were asked whether you thought a prohibitory law could be enforced, and I think you said you had not considered the question? — It would be very difVuiilt lo enforce. 39178. Take such a law as existed recently in the North-west Territories, which adjoin this province; the power of .search was given to the authorities in order to.seai-ch tor liquor, and in these Territories there was maintained a large force of Mounted Police tor the purpose of carrying out that law. From your knowledge of the people of British * 'olumbia, do you think they would lie satisfied to have such a law enacted and applied 475 Liquor Traffic — lU'itish (^olumbia. tu this province, ■■ 1 iw tliat would jjivt; the rij^ht of search of person and residence, in firder to ascertain wiietiier the people had hipior or not I — J^oes it work satisfactorily in tlie Nortli-west Ter>-itories? •■l!H7U. That is one nf tlic (piestitins we have to report on. Tlie Act is not in force there now, for tiicy have a license law tiieie. I ask yoa the ipiestion in tiiisway : You are an old resident here, you know the people and their teniieraiuent and their habits : do yuu helieve sucii a law would be conj^enial to them 1 — I would not like to speak in retU)^0. You understand tliat the question refers to what is calletl national pro hibition. It, is proposed by the advocates of prohibition to i)rohil)it brcnveries and dis tilleries, and so i)revent li(|Uor bein<; matiufactured in this country, and also imported, cxceiit for medicinal, mechanical and sacramental pui'poses ? — You must obtain that information from somelwdy else. olUfn City Clerk ? -About three and a half years. .'i!)lS(). l)id you comt! here from one of the othei' provinces .' -Yes. from Ontarin, from Toronto. ;i!HS7. As City Clerk, have you anything to do with tlie working of thelicen.se law ' — Notliing that T am aware of furthei' that' io act as Clerk of the Tacensing Court. I have nothing to do in connection with the working of tlu> system, e.veept receiving pay- ments. .'ii)|SS. Have you any knowledge respecting the granting of licenses other than tli:it the .Mayor possesses?- No. .'ilUSD. As t^lerk of the Police Court have you anything to do with infringement^ of the provisions of the law ? Yes. Freijuently witln'cspect to .selling liquor to Indian--. ( >ccasionally that is done liy saloons and hotels. ;l',tl90. In such cases, is it very ditlicult to get proof ? Very. •'19101. IJo you lind the witnesses troubled with wretched memories in connection witii the facts of ca.ses ? — Yes. .'iStli)'2. Do you find that other people are sent into saloons to get litiuor for tin Indians? — Yes, mostly Chinamen. They are the people wiio violate the law. .■{919.S. Are any Cliinamcn licensed to sell li(juor in this city ?- No. .■19194. Have any cases been brought up for selling li(|Uor on Sunday or to minor-. or ca.KCs of that kind (--At the beginning of lasfyear there was a law pa.s.sed closing u|i saloons on Sunday. There have been some infringements of the law, but they have not been brought before the Police Court. •'f'.UOr). Have you many cases of drunkenness brought before the court ? — Yes, (|uiir a number. .'19190. Are any of those individuals brought u}) again and again ? — Yes. We ha\i' a number of habitual drunkards, although I do not think tluMe is a large nuinl)i'i considering the si/e of tiic^ city. RouEitT i?iv\vi;s-. 476 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 iilence, in ictorily in ot in force yay : You if liahits : spi'fik ill 'd here to ,i(iiial pro- s find dis imported, btiiiii tliat enforce ? — 'oinu'il, «iii II tliis I'ity [•ears. (^ntiiriii. cense law ' Court. I Jiving Jiav tlian tliMl ingenipnt^ to Indian-. f;onnecti(iii nor for till' to nininr>, closing;- u]' ly have tuiI -Yes, eastern provinces where you iiave lived? — No : in Toronto there is nmch less drunkenness than here, generally speaking. .■i920.'{. Have you a larg(! nautical or seafaring population here I — We have a con- siderable floating population. U9204. Do any of them appear before the Police Court .' — Yes, a few. Of course they ar(> sailors. ;{920r). Of course there are more at some seasons than at others? Yes. When the sealing vessels are in, there are a number of men here. .'?920t). Have you considered whether, in the event of the passage of a general prohibitory law, it would right to comp<»nsate brewers and distillers for their loss of plant and machinery f — I have not given ihe subject such consideration as would enable ine to give an opinion on it. By Rev. Dr. McLcod: 39207. You are Clerk of the Police Court I Yes. 39208. Yon have charge of the records of the casjs that come befoi'e the Magis- trate 1 — Yes. .39209. You make the rec.rd ? YVs. 39210. Will you give us a copy of the recoi'd, showing the number of arrests for drunkenness? — Yes ; [ have just sent the return to Ottawa, but i ha\e a recoi-d that will show the number of arrests for this year. 3921 1. You have sent away the returns foi' the year? -Yes. 39212. J)o they include the arrests for drunkenness? — "^'es, and the otVences that are dealt with by the Police Magistrate. 39213. is there a large jiroportion of the cases due to driiik ? — Y*.-,. 39214. \Vhat proportion? -^ I may say ful'y three-fourths, cvept such cases as larceny. 3921."). Havti you many of the class cal'i'd repeaters in the list of drunkards, men who come before the court once ,'i fori iiiglit or once a month? There are a nunibei- of them. 39210. Speaking of cases other than those for drunkeinie.ss, are any of them tlue, directly or iiulirectly to the use of litpior, such, for example, as disorders and larceny '. — Possibly. 39217. Vagrancy, '-i. ? guite so. .39218. Will it be ••■..isible for you to give us a ri'porl of the casts .'- - Y'es ; liul the Chief of Police will " Ae to givt> you information. 39219. Do you know whethei' drunkenness is increasing, as shown l.y your record?— 1 have an idea that it is increasing, but the popidation is increasing. .39220. hoes di-unkenness keep pace with the increase in j>opuiation .' I rather think so. .39221. I think we understoiMJ that there wore fewcM' licenses issued now than fornxu'ly. Do you know whether that has les.sened the amount of drinking? - 1 could not answer that (|uestion. 39222. Do you from your .)tlicial position, tliink that the license law is violated by the lie(!naees, in that they sell dui-ing certain prohibited luairs and on the Sabbath? — I am not prepared from my oth 'ial knowledge to say anything about tlial. 477 p LitMor Traffic — British Columbia. Ill 39223. Dc cases of sucli violations come before the Police Court ■? — They did at the beginning of the year more than they have recently done. I do not know whether they are selling or not on Sunday. • 39224. Do you know whether there is illicit sale, that is sale by others than by licensees ? — From hear say only. 39225. Have such cases come Ijefore the court 1 — They have not ; but 1 understand they occur. 39226. Have you considered the question as to whether prohibition, well enforced, would be beneficial or injurious to the country, in its bu.siness affairs and its social life ? - T think it would. 39227. Would be beneficial or injurious? — I think it would, all things considered. T am not prepared to say as to the enforcement. I think it would be rather difficult to do that. 39228. You think the enforcement would be somewhat difficult ? — I certainly do, from the history of past efforts. 39229. Do you think it would be advantageous to limit the number of licenses in Victoria '/— It might. 39230. Of that you are not sure ?— No M !l I) HENRY WILLIAM SHEPPAKD, of Victoria, Superintendent of City Police, on l)eing duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Jud'je. MfDonald : 39231. Were you appointed l)y the city authorities or by tiie Provincial Govern- ment ? — By the city authorities. 39232. How long have you held office? — I have Ijeen Superintendent foi- foui years. 39233. How long have you resided in British Columbia ? -A little over thirtv years. 39234. During the whole of that time has there been license law in force in con nection with the sale of intoxicating liquors ? — Yes. 3923.5. Have you had any experience of a prohibitt>ry law in any countrj" ? -No. 3923(i. How large a force have you in the city? 22 men all told. 39237. Are their duties confined to tiie city of Victoria, or are they for the pro vince as well ? — We are confined to the city. .39238. Are the members of the force also appointed by the Council ? — Yes. 39239. Speaking generally, what are the duties you have to discharge ? Instiuit my men and see that they do their duty. 39240. You look after the enfoicement of the city l)y-laws, I suppose ? — Yes. 39241. And of the licen.se law also? — Yes. 39242. And prosecute for illegal selling? — Yes, 39243. Are all these ([uestions brought before the Police Magistrate ? Yes. 39244. Take the license law and the way it is observed : have you reason to believe that the law is fairly well carried out? — Yes. 39245. The liust witness spoke of cases l)eing brought l)efore the court in the l>egiii ning of the year. Was that when the law came in ? -Yes, there were three cases befoiv the court. 39246. Has there been a diminution in the numbei' of cases? — Yes, there have 1m'(>ii none since. 39247. Have you re., lOn to believe that there is no unlicensed sale going on ? — No, I do not think there is any. 39248. Do you believe the law is fairly well obser\ed ? — Fairly well. Wellington J. Dowlek. 478 VC c? 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 '/—Yes. 39249. From yi ihi!.' it could be enforced if passed !— Y'es. 39267. Ana i^ie na..';orities would be able t compensate them for the loss they sustained b}' the closing up of their business 1 — \ ..s. 39290. Or for the plant they employed 1 — That would be part of their outlay. 39291. Have you any breweries here ? — Yes, there are five, two small and three large ones. 39292. Are they supposed to be making money ? — I cannot tell you. .39293. Do they do a large business ? — Yes. .39294. Anfl yet you would compen.sate them. Would you have the Dominion compensate them ? — Yes, if the Dominion collects the license fees. 39295. Then you would have the people taxed in the country to pay to compensate these men ? — Certainly not. 39296. How then would the (government get money with which to compensuti- them ? — I suppose it would ha\e to come from the people ultimately. 39297. I notice a certain number of cases of drunkenne.ss, not quite one-half, out of the total cases. What i)r()portion of the other offences are connected with drunkeii- uess ? — I judge one-third. .39298. What proportion of the people are total abstainers ? — I do not know that any of them are. .39299. What proportion of the people brought before tiie court are total abstainers .' — I could not answer that question. 39300. Do you think there has been any change in the customs of the people a^ regards drinking ; do you think drinking has increased or flecreased ? — It has increased, because the population has increased. 39301. Has it increased in a greater ratio than the population? — 1 think it has, to some extent. .39.302. I think you said there were no illicit places here? — Yes. 39303. I noticed that when you mentioned cases of sale of liquor to Indians, ymi said there were 29 cases and the persons sold illicitly ? — A Ciiinaman would meet an Indian and go in and get a bottle of li(|uor for himself, and he would give it to tlir Indian. .39304. So they supplied the Indians by the bottle ! — Yes. .3930"). Do you know whether the licensees observe carefully the provisions of tln' law ?— They do. 39306. Are they ojien ail night? — Yes. There is no hour for closing, except "in Saturday, when they close at 11 p.m. until Monday. 39.307. Do you think they sell on Sunday ? -I believe some do. Many of-tlniii close. We cannot watch the places all day and there are people in a.id out all tliai time, and all night Uhk The law should compel the dealers to remain closed. .39.308. Then you could not say whether drinking was going on or not? — No. .39309. How many nine have you on the force ?- Twenty-two, all told. 39310. Are they instructe are licensed to sell under certain restrictions, Ijut the regulations are somewhat dill'erent. 39.333. As Police Magistrate, you try all cases of infringement of tin city by-laws here ? — I do. •39.334. And also other cases ? — En fact all eases that can be tried summarily are trieil by me. 39,33.j. And I sujipiose you take examinations in cases sent to the superior courts'? — Y'es, iind also cases under the .Suimnary 'IVials Act. .39.33(5. Taking the eonnnunity as a whole, do you Iind tliis to be a sober and law- abiding one ? — Yes, T should say fully up to the average. Of these matters, liowe\er, 1 cannot speak with authority, as I attend to my work and do not go about much. .39337. Have you had tiny experience in the working of a |)rohibitory law 1 — No. •39.33S. Perhaps you have considered the ([uestion as to the advisability of prohibi- tion? — No, I have not considered it in such a manner as would warrant me giving an opinion on it that would be worth anything. 393.39. Havi- you been long enough in this province to lie able to say whetiier it would bo practicablt! to enforce such a law here ? — I am not prepared to say. \ do not know whether the Scott Act has been practically enforced in thejiarts of the Hominion wliere it has been in force. 481 Jl_31** "fcl * Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. .'jyjUU. You havo liiul no otlier experience in tlie Douiinion other tlian in British Columbia, i uiiderHtand 'I — None .vhatever. .'5'.).'54l. Taking tiie cases that come before you, is a large proportion due to the use of intoxicating beverages ?— Yes, a considerable portion. ;?y.'{12. Have you a good many cases of drunkenness ?— \''es. .'SD.'M.S. Anfi taking other cases o".tside of that class, is there any large proportion that may be said to l)e connected with the use of intoxicating li(juoi's'( — There is. ."iy.Slt. How large a proportion would there be ?— I cannot sjK>ak of the offences as a whole, but certainly as regards crimes of violence, the greater part are the I'esult of drink. ;}ii."5 15. You have had ca.ses before you for disposing of liquor to Indians ? — Yes, a considerable number during my six months. ;{9;54G. And have there been many convictions 1 — The Indians are generally convicted. .■{i).'547. For ilrunkenness 1 — Y'es. .'i!).'5-lS. Are there many convictions of people wlio furnish them with licjutjr ? — No. ."59^(49. Do you find it difticult to get evidence in those ca.ses / — -Yes. I am vevy anxiinis to get evidence of the sale of liquor to Indians. .'{'J.'i.'jO. J.)o you not find the sentiment of the community favourable to the suppres- sion of the sale to Indians / — Y'^es, that is so. 39.'5-j1. In cases that are convicted before you, arc the offenders persons who are licensed, or are they not 1 — Some are and some are not. .■{!)."5.'»:i. Are there any amendments you could suggest to the Commission in regard to the license law '! — I could hardly speak with authority from my experience as Magis- trate, as I have (nily been suc'i for a short time. I would say this, however, that I have been struck both as ^lagistrate and as a citizen by the fact that the .saloims are open at all hours of the night. Tliat is contrary to my experience elsewhere, andT know New Zealand and Australia pi'etty well. There is no limit except from 11 .Saturday night to 1 Monday morning, when they are supjiosed to be closed. ;M);{.");5. You think it would be well to have the hour limited ? — I see no reason wiiy Victoria should be an exception in this respect Of course there may be a good reason for it, but I speak as a comparative stranger. 39."5r)f. You have people brought before you who are convicted of drunkenness aiul r'-Mt to jail, and go back to the saloons and then back to jail, and so on ? — Y'^es. ;59.'i.")."). Have you considered the (|uestion as to whether that is a proper mode of (healing with tho.se jjcople, or whether it would be better to have them sent to inebriate asylums for long terms with a view to their reformation ? — The present limit is six months for tlrunkcnnrss. I have not sent any for more than three months. I think it would be a goc.d thing to send them to inebriate hou.ses. ;59.'5.5G. Have you, in your experience as a Magistrate, had any diHiculty in I'egard to the .sale of liquor in billianl and pool-rooms ? — I have had no ca.se before me. .'{9.'5o7. Have you considered the ([uestion whether it would not be better to separate the two, and not allow sale of li(]Uor in billiard and pool -room s / — I have not considered that point. I understand that in all saloons billifirds are played, or in nearly all. .'i9." anything like the climate here / -In the south of New Zealand, it is not unlike Victoria, but in the north, wheiv I lived most of my life, tlir climate is wai'nier. 39.'?r)0. Are light wines used there at all? — By many, but not generally; well to do people are in the habit of using wine. HO.'iOl. Have you breweries and distillei-ies there ? -There are no distilleries there now. There were some 15 years ago, and they were brought under the Colonial Act. .'59.'?Ol'. Are the people there law-abiding and sober citizens 1 — They are as law abiding jus in the old country. Fakquhak M acCkae. . 482 J,':- 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■J9363. Do you find any differt'iii'e us regards tliis uityduetoit liaving a lloatiiig nautical population coming and going? — It is not uidike other seaport towns. Mv own town in New Zeajand was a seapoi't. ; well t" JSy Rev. Dr. McLmd : 3!)."5G I. Do I understand that the distilleries in New Zealand were suppressed 1 — They were. .TO.'SC)."). Why? — It occurred a long time ago, and I hardly rcnieniher. .■{i)3G(5. \Va.s it because of the Colonial Act? — Yes, under that Act they were sup- pressed. I was very busy at the time, and I was n(jt particularly interested in the sub- ject. I think compensation was given to the owners. They were not allowed tcj work more tiian three oi' four years I remember. .'}9.'567. W. theie a temperance sentiment among the people that biought about the suppressio'i v/f those distilleries ? I will not say that it was the desire of the people to iiave thiMO suppressed, but tliei'(> was a desire to suppress them manifested. ;}9.'?()!<. l~)o yi " know '"hy there was a desire to supjjress them .'-I remember tiiere was a general impr'->iion ani >ng tiie jx-ople that New Zealand whisky was not as whole- some as that prod • jd in the old country. That was the general conclusion. 39300. Was tlie suppression of the New Zealand distillei-ies for the purpose of intro- ducing better whisky into the country ? — It was believed that the jieople must have Itetter di'ink ; they thought that Scotch whisky was bettei' than New Zealand whisky. 39370. Do you know whether, after the sujipression of those distilleries, thei'e was ,1 diminution in the consumption of distilled liquors ? — I cannot .say anything in regard to that matter. .39371. Was there a large consumption of beer ? — Yes. ■39372. Do you know whether there was a larger consum])tion of l)eer and a reduced use of tlistilled liijuors, or do you think the consum{)tion in one case kej)t pace with the other ?- -No, New Zealand people are not spirit drinking people ; I refer especially to jieo- ple born in the country. 39373. You think the}' are a beer drinking people ? — Yes, and the young jieople are very nuich more temperate than the old settlers, and a great many of them are total abstainers. 39.374. Do you think there is an increase of total abstainers among the young peopli; uf New Zealand? — There has been a marked increase, and y(ju can see it every few years. 39.37o. To what do you attril)ute that increase? — To the lai'ge iniluence of the liands of Hope. 39370. To religious and moral influences? — Yes. Thei'e are Bands of Ho])eall over, and some of the settlers who are given to drink take ciire to send their children to the iJands of Hope. 39.377. How many years' experience had you there as a barrister .' — Onlycjiie. 39378. In your experience as a barrister in iS^ew Zealand, did you come into contact w ith criminal cases a good deal ? — i^ometimes, as all lawyerN do. .My work, however, was not specially with tht^ criminal class, and 1 avoided that kind of work as much as possible. My duties wei'e more in civil cases, but of c(jurse f woujil sometimes get a I liminal case. 39379. From your expei'ience and ol)servation, did you tind anv |pro|)ortii)n of the ii'iminal cases before the Courts in Now Zealand attributabli- to the iliink trade and ilrink habit, directly or indirectly? — I should say that tin; majority of ca.^cs in New Zealand were attributable to the use of lic|Uor, directly or indirectly. .39380. And what did you find in regard to criminals that came before th(^ higlier I ourts? — I think a fair pro{)ortion of them were also so attributable, but T could not .say \\liat proportion. 39381. Have you obser\ed that as the drink trathc has increased, the drink habit lias increased? — My experience in New Zealand was, and I am speaking generally, that the tratlie increased as tiiere was a demand for liquor, that is in hotels. Saloons were not known tiiere. 483 21— 31i** m Aji^ i >' :\h Liquor Trtitlic — British Columbia. ;19;{S:2. I)iil yuu ulisci'vc this, tlmt as tlie habit uf total alistiiifiicc ainotij;' yuiiii;; jteojiln ill New Zealand inerensed, there was an increased desire to restriet tlit^ trattie ? — Yes. :)'.(.'?S;i. So the teiicleiiev of tlie legislation is always towards greater restriction .'— Yes. The ]ieo])li' have a right to refuse licenses. .'i'.».'{S4. I )o you know whether many of the riiiiil districts lia\e refused to issue licenses? — Yes, a cunsiderahle jjart in my own neighliourhood. •"i'JISyr). Ts there a growing feeling in fa\'our of the total iiroliihition of the tralKc .' —I should say there was .1 rai>idly growing feeling in that direction. Jii/ Jniliji' MrDiiiKihl : .")!)3.>G. Have yon considered the ijuestion of granting c(»iii|ieiisation to hrewers and distillers for loss of plant and niachinery in case of the enactment of a general ]irohilii- tor\' law for the I )oiiiiiiion ? — Tn New Zealand, a iiumher of hotels were do.sed ; coiii|)laiiii was made as to the way in which they were conducted, and they were closed linally. .■{it.'Jf*?. ^^lU did not consider the <|Uestion of comiiensatioii in regard to distilleries ' — I did. The conclusion that T came to was that, as the licenses were issued from year to vcar, they were not entitled to any. They are nearly all wealthy men and did not need it. I consider that if two or three years' notice was gi\ en it would lie jitn-fectly fair and right, and that under sucii circumstances it would he iieitVclly proper to enni t such a law without granting comiiensatioii. .'V.).")SS. In the case of brewers and distillers in Canada, the lasv re(|uires tliein to furnish certain machinery in conformity witii departmental regulation.-;. Spirits have to be kept two years, for rectification purjioses. In bond. The ipiestion is whe- ther it would he right and just in that ease to give compensation for loss of plant and machinery that would lii' rendered useU^ss by such legislation .' — On the face of it 1 think compensation should be made. \ did not think of that matter before. Jlif li'r. Dr. McLfod: .'513389. l>o you underst.ind that the law reipiires anybody to go into the distilliiiL: own part .' — Ft is entirely \-olunlaiy. I privilege of lieing allowed in luiuarv on the: pay regularly for the business, or is it entirely should say ;5;);{'JU. Does the distiller manufacture '.' — T think so. .■{!)3!)1. So far as certain iilant and machinery being re(|uired for the business, he need not go into the business unless he chooses. Does that fact entitle him to coiiipeii sation .' Ts he not \iiulei-taking the liusiness voluntarily with all the risks invohed .' Yes. I do not, however, know all the requirements for distilling in Canada, and 1 am not prepared to s.iy but that the requirements of the Dominion (iovernment may he such as would make it a kind of wrong to continue the business. I think that if a large sumof money i-^ put out in meeting tlios(^ requirements, you should be allowed to con tin U.S1)4. You iire a nieiiiln'rof the City Cduik'H, T hclievo? -Yes. .■)!»;(!(■). You iiro one of the Aldernion of tlic city ? — Yes, and I fim also oliairinan of tlie Police Connnitter. .■!'.);{ittl. Mow Ion;; liavo you l)eeii an Aldcinian ,' -This year and also durinjr the year IS.SO. .'l!)."i!)7. How long iiavc you been chaii'nian <)f the Poliee Counnittee .' -This year. .■^'.l.illS. Mow lonu; ha\<" you lived in this pio\inee .' — Thirty yt-ars, next Ajii'll. .■t!l.'{i)'J. Mid you eonie here fi-oin one of the other pros-inces .' — T eanie here fi'oni 'Mitario. •■>!Mt)0. What |iart of Ontario .'From Howniauville. ."itUOl. Has there been a license law in force since you came ti> ^'icloria ,'- Yes. A'// AV,-. Or. Mr Lead: .">!) IOl'. You liave stated that you are a contractor ?-— Yes. .'i'.llO.'i. l)o you emjiloy a good many men .'Yes. •'>'J401. How many men do you emiiloy ! Sometimes 40 or •")(). .■il)40"). What is the character of the woi'k you cai'ry on .' IJuilding, in N'ictoria. I iia\e built nearly half of it. lam also a brickmakei'. and in that business T employ Chinamen and white men. ;5VI40<'). It is claimed that the drink trade and thedrink habit allert lalxiuritigmen : what is youi' obser\ation ? JIow does it aiVect them, in youropinion .' M atl'ei'ts them if they spend all their money on lit|Uor. You must remembi'r that workingmen in this country cannot aH'oi'd to drink with liipio'' at 12.', cents a di'ink until recently, when -"i lent beer came in. .">i)407. Is the o cent l)eer manufactured here?- Yes. .'lit 108. l.)o many of the men in your employ drink more or less ? .\lmost all of tliem ; they do not lo.sc whole days, however, for they could not atl'ord to lose i?'2J)0 a ilay. .■5i)401). Mav(! you observed whether the workingmen lose any percentage of time on account of their drinking habits? No. They drink pietty mucli aftertlunr work is drine. They work hard. •"VJlrlO. Are they better men for drinking ! -No. •SiMrll. If a man is in the habit of drinking so that he lose-- one day per week, would you be likely to put another man in his place if you could?— That would depend on whether I was rushed for labouring nu'n or not. .'5041'-'. Which do you consider more reliable, nien who diink or men who do not drink .' — Those \\ho do not drink. .')!'41.'?. l)o you find many such in IJrit ish Columbia?- Uritish Cohunbia i.: a dif- tVreiit place from anywiiere else. .'V.)414. Or in Victoria ? -In N'ictoria we iiaxc a floating iiopuliition and a iiii,\(Ml population, Americans, (iermans, Chinese, Englisii, CanaIt41-">. What is a respectable drinker? —A man who does not get diunk, but takes a drink when he wants it. 3i»4U). Is there a great deal of that?— Yes. .'i0417. Is there nuich driidcing that results in druid;i 1 I Liquor TiafTic — Hiitish Columbia. ;iyH!K I mean hiiviiifj; rofei'eiuM- to tlu; iiiciTiist; in pojjulatioii and iiuikiiiy allowfinee for it?— No. I do not tliink tliey (h'ink ? — They will work hard and stop in the tavern and get a glass of heer if tliey feel they need it, while the temperance man will get a glass of water. 1 oliserve that some of my men go into the tavei'n and get a glass of heer and some hread and cheese. Thei'e is of course evei'y inducement held out by the whisky mills to attract men into them. 3!( t'i.'J. Is this a good thing for the men in the long run, as regards their working capability ? — No, T do not think so. 30 I2t. Ft is claimed that on account of the drinking hahit, men lose time, and that that is .so much lo.ss to the eonti-actor. It is also daimefl that on account of the drink- ing habit, they sutTer a loss of wage-earning power. Do you think in the long run that the man who drinks })eer regularly is better than a total abstainer ? -Tn regard to tinances he is benefited, but he might make as much time as a total alwtainer oi- a tem- perance man. There is, of course, th(' possibility of the man who drinks regularly getting drunk, and the temperance man or total abstainer has not that drawback. .■5942"). Have you observed any dirterence in the condition of the families of men who drink an"J00 for a saloon license. If a low saloon did not happen to be on the road between a man's work and ids home, he woidd frecpiently '^o home without jrettin^' a drink, but when tliere are four or five saloons between him aiul liis iiome, lie is liable to droj) in. Tf there was a hotel paying' .*1,(J00 or !?-',00() lici'ns( . would be far better. .■M)t42. It is contended by some persons that wlien men ai'e ;d)le to ji.iy .■?1,U00 for a license, tiie oidy dil!er(;nce is that they have a iii;,'h-tonud place, which is nuide very attractive to tiie men and hoys, ratiier than places 7 x !) feet ? -Of course they do not want working-men in those places. They are, iiowever, nuich lietter tiian low dives and underj,'round beer cellars where men are apt to go and sta\- ahnost all night. .'5944;?. Have you obsei'\ed wiiat class of people visit low dives, the people who are just lieginning to drink or people wiio have pretty nearly graduated? — Tiiey have pretty nearly graduated. 'I'hey are generally old tipplei's or longshoi'cmen and .sailors and of course some mechanics too, because tlio labouring class get big wages here and they can afford to drink. .■U)I44. This is also contended, that if there; was limited sale the high license places W(jukl make their places attractive and cater to the iiigh class, while tliere. would l)e low places si)ringing up foi- the poor people in lieu of saloons, where illicit sale would be carried on 1 I do not think so. .'{!)44r). If only a few licensed places were establislied, and these not of the class frequented usually by the lalioui'ing class, would it not be taking away from them tiie rigiit to drink ; in a word, would that not be class legislation I — When I spok(> of iiigli license, 1 meant men wlio would spend !?!■"), 000 or .Sl.'0,000 to put up iiigh class hotels containing .")0 or fiO rooms. I saj- such a man shoulil obtain a license, while saloons wliere gambling and .something worse is going on should not obtain licen.ses. .■$9446. Are saloons licensed to carry on gambling? — No. .'59447. Tiien tliat is illegal ? — T believe it would be inhnitely better if there were only four or five high toned hotels in Victoria. « .■}944S. Do vou mean that the fewer places there are for selling liqu(U- tln' better?— - Yes, I do. ."$9449. Tf you could reduce the nuinljcr to none, would thai be lietter still ! -Y''», we all know that. Jiy Jiidye JfcDonald : ;^94r)0. How many men do you employ ?^Tn the summer I employ in the brick yards about .'50, but of course it all depends on the work on liand : and in town 1 emjiloy about 15 or 20 white men. .394.")!. Do you ask your men if they are total abstainers or not /—No, I can tell that pretty well. ;194.52. Do you make it a condition of their einployiiient th.it tliey shall be total abstainers ? — No. .394ij.'5. Have you men steadily in your employ wlio di'lnk in moderation .' -Ye.s, some of my best meditanics and brick-layers ai-e hard drinkers. .'i94.')4. Have you otiier men wlio drink and yet are not hard drinkers ? — I have men who drink ami never get drunk, and that is called respectable drinking. 487 n\ h, 1 1 1"- LiqiUM- TiiiHic- Hiitisli Colninlna. Hlt4.").">. I tiiiil that in l'**".*!. tlif icwMMcfiMiii liciMist'd jilact'.s ill Victoriiiwiii- i?l(S,000 ,' — Yew. .'H(|5(). Was tliiit sum used Uiv the jfciicriil jmrposi-s uf tlu; city ( -Yfs. .'{!M')7. Tliiit rt-vt'iiuc repi'csniitcd II.! liii'iiscd plaws, fjiviiij,' a total rtnt'ime uf .SIH.OOU.' Yes. t'.ttoH. Do I uiidoistaiid ymi would jjiffcr (liat tin- imiimIici' sluiuld ho kept down, ,'iiid that tile licenses sliipuld he lii;i,di i'iinU;L;li to funii.sli the siiniti revciiue / I lielifHe that it' the lumilx'i' of licenses wefe reduced, wr should n(>t necid .such a lar^'c force of police as we hav«' now. At the present time we have \!'2 polictMuen. 'J'lit'y have of course to keep the criminals down. ;>'.iiri!». S'ou think if iher'e were fewer licenHCs j;ranted, there wouldhe lessdrinkinjj, hut your idea is to ha\c hij;her licenst,' fees so as not to reduct^ the income? I do not know aiioul tiuit. ^'ou would h.ive to ciiari;e four hits a drink to make it pay, and the whole hox and dice mijuht he cut down. .■iOlCtU. Take this community as a whole, is it a law-aliidint; and sohor one? — Yos. ■'{1)401. |)o you tiiink it will compare favourahly with other places you ha\'eknown i I think it will compare f;ivoural)ly with (nen Toionto, of which you hear so much, especially as rejjards Sunday obserx'vv.'c. 1 Ix^liese we sur|)ass the people there. .'J94()2. Is this not a city in which a groat deal of liipioi- is consumed ? Take the city as you know it. \'ou have ll;i places hci-e, which paid in lf. Have you a good many old country people here .' — Y'es. ■■>y4t)4. iV'oj)le who are accustomed in their i>wn country t"d here recently. .■i!)4ft9. Ifow m.vny had you Iwiv before .' — There were tsvo or three before ; they did all th(.' business, ')ut the business has increa.sed. ■'10470, How m ,ny ai-e there now ?— There are four or Kve. In If^Ol, there were said to be -six or seven, l)ut at all events two of them were bought up by still larger establishments. ■'V.t471. 1^0 tht?y manufacture for home consumjition ? — Yes. .'V.M"'-'. Have you considered tUe tpiestion of granting remuneration to brewers and distillers in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law? — T have thought about it considerably and read about it. ■'?947'i. AVIiat is your view in regard to it? — As a temi)erance man, I do not think they should lose all tluMr capital in\esteii, but time should be allowed them to get their mojiey back. .')9474. Then you would have somi^ mode of compeiis/ition fixed? — I think so, but 1 do not know. A great many go into the business with the knowledge that they will be clcsed down if a prohibitory la* .• is passed. ■'59475. Y'ou understand that they are recjuired to have certain plant and machinery ill connection with their business, and that the Government requires distillers to keep their stock for two years for the purposes of rectification? T do not think it would be right, for instance, to shut down any of these new breweries ; it would be thieving. ■'W476. It has been argued that distillers and brewers have licen.ses only from year to year. Do you find that they really continue in the trade from year to year?— I iind a great many remain in the busine.ss. ■'?9477. Are there any amendments you could suggest to the Commissioners in regard to the license law ? — No, only what I stated in regard to high licensing. Morris Humukr. WM 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 llOHKItT II. HALL. .M.r.l'., nt Viciuiiii, ..n l»ciiig .luly ^\s.)i n, iIi'I.us.mI us t'..|- l(jWH : — //// Jlldijr Ml- huiiilhl : 'MH'iX. Wiiat is your husiiicMH or ii('('U|iiitioi'ti-i's wliolly. .'i!)|HL'. What is the cliaraiti'i' of till' license you hold f A wholesale lieeiisi-. .'littM.'f. I )o vou sell in tlie ori;;inal packai^es .' ^'es. :V.)\X\. Yoii ilo not sell l.y the ;;lass i No. .'i'.t Jf<."). I low Ion;; have you lieen icsidint,' ln'i'' .' Not (|uite {\\i\ years. ;i!)4''^t'). W'liere (lid you resifle before that .' I n ditl'erent plaee^ in I he |iro\ inee. liave been in the same employment for L'O years. ;f!MS7. Mow lon<,' lia\c you been in ISrilish ("olunil)ia( I'd yisirs. .■l!l4f law is attempted tv'n-o is ■_'."> cents a drink. .'lOoli. Do you know any other place in .\laska except J'.ineau / -Sitka. ;'!)~)LS. liow is the business theie'.'- It is just the same. .'}',};■) 11. Ai'e th"re many saloons in Sitka ( — Yes. •■ilt51."). Does the (lovermnent not ]iut this tiaiie down f They are not able to do so. I do not tliink the (iovernment oHicials could put it down utdess they Iwul a very large army in the teri-itory. The majority would defy any interpretation of tlie law tliat would hi'inir about pi'ohibition. .■5!).")1(). Was li(|Uor to be obtained at many places ; I am pi'etty sure there were no places wl;er(! it could not be obtainerl. T have seen both Indians and white men drink- in^' there. .'$9517. How did it comjiare with other places in whicli you have lived ? — It w,is hary could claim it legally. .'iitoL':!. Taking ycair business hiMe, ,lo you find the taste of the people ri:n to light wines and ales or to spirituous licpiors ,' - I think it is very generally divided. The con- sumption of ales is considerable. The wines, especially California wines, are very popu lar, and the demand is increasing, .19r)24. We have been informed to-day that two neu breweries have been started.' —Yes. .'5952"), Is there a large output at present from the 'ircweries .' 1 think there \»ill be. .'?9r)2(i. Ts there much ale imported from England? - A good deal, consideiing 'he price. ■V.)i')'27. You have a good many English people residing here, 1 siipiiose ?— Yi-, a good many. .■{9r)2S. Is lager Iteer sold her;-? — Yes. .'iOoi'i). Is there much demand for it ? -Yes. It seems to be taking the j>lace of leavier li(|Uors .'Mto.'U). In what size pack liquor that lonies here to l)e bottled. cages IS lager impi rted do n. is it brought from the i nited States? Yes. from .M" llwaukee an( I St. L. Jii/ Ji'er. Dr. McLeod: \\)')'.\?i. Siieaking about Port Simivson, is there no lau auaiiist the sale of iiiiunr there ?- Yes NJ. •■Vy^'.W. Is the I ted. 'I of liipiia' legal?- I do not think so. for there were m lii)")."}"). You have said lliat there was ;i gooay Company sell ? No. At < v-ns myself in charj I found the licens UaVe me a our company not to renew it. HoiiKirr II. II.M.t,. go me time th(>y did. )le ami I )d deal of trotil 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ;tl>r).'i7. In wlmt way did the liociisi' t;i\t' :i dcid ot' t I'oiihlc f I was tlic utdy M'lidor iif spirits autliori/cd, and if ii(|ui)i- was sinuifirled in and tlio peoplt' ifdt di'uid<, it wi's laid at my (Iddt and I was made to appear to hv the (.•ause of it. lUit stran;;*' to sa_> aftor I dropped tlio lioiMise, tlicro was a still worse condition of all'airs than tlicro had been lieforc. .■i'.l.");}S. Ho you tinnk tin-re was more drinking' after yon had eeased to sell than there was lu'foi-e .' — Yes. (Jf course we only sold wholesale. ■VjiuVJ. In reifard to Alaska, you iiave said that there was a ])rohiliitory law in force there, and althou<;h its enfor<'enient was attempted, it was a i,'reat failure. Who wius set to enfoi'ce the law, did ollicials attempt to enforce it? Yes, a laij;e stall' of otlifials. .■5!)5IO. What was the dillieult\ in the way of ds enforcement .' I think tlie(M(li- culty was this: 1 do not suppose tiiat the ollicials themselves oi' the people helieved in ihe law that they were appointed to enforce. .■i!);")!]. AN'liat class of people aie they generally? I'lsiiernu'H and miners ; they are the principal population ; and then there are the missionaries. 1 think they form a lar<;e pcrcenta<;e. ■\di)i2 I )o you think the ollicials were really careful to carry out the law, did they n^.ake an attempt to do so ? — Y^es, and they were constantly makin<; seizures. .■l!)r)4."f. Were .'!") saloons open ano saloons closed .' — No, 1 could not answer that question. •'51)r)47. Ha\'e you ohsei ved 1,'enerally what the eU'ecl of salimtis has been in a coniUHinity wheiv they exist, whether the cH'ect is i,'ood ur had '. 1 do not know nuieh about saloons. .■5'.)r;.[,S. |i''rom your ol)ser\ation of a coiinnuuily like this, what woulu ymi say was the efl'ect on the I'ommunity of having 70 or SO retail drinkinu place---, would it be i;(iod oi' l)a(l .' -I snpjiose it is bad for those who maki' a bad use of them. ."{JtoMt. What do yon re^'ard as a bad use '. Those w ho ;,'o there too often and drink too much. ;?•,).").")( I. Is there a standard liy which the matter can be closely delined, as to wIimI is too nuicli and wiial too often f l]\ery man has to ileeiile for himself. .■i!t.").")l. 'i'hen you think a man should be a law to iiimself .' Yes. '?!t"toL'. Would it lie well to linut the nuMil)er of licensed places more than the number is lindted at the present time ' The I'etail ~-ale of li(|u<)r is a matter to which r have not jjiven any attention. ."iDOoik I)o you thiid< it is well to restrict them as to hours anil e\crythin^' of that kind?-- I am st'-ouLtly of the opiMirved the retail trade pari icularly .' No. ;i!ir).")(!. Yoiii' cor.ipany are ini|>orters ? Yes. ,'{l)r).")7. Ila\c ycu thou;;ht of this ))oint, whether the importing; trade has ,-iny rela tion to the retail trade t It is the relation of seller to |)Ui-chaser, 1 suppose. ,'')!),")r)S, Y. 'I liave expressed the opinion that prohibition c.idd not be enforced here: why not f liecause I do not think the majority, orexcn a cunsideiable nunoriiv, would i)e in favt)ur of it. .'$9r)i)i), Huppu."iiig u majority wnrked in fa\our of ]iroliibilion, could it then Ik; fairly W(>ll enforced ? -No, not if a minority of considerable proporlion was oppised to it'. 491 Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 'It ¥\ ' 39560. Could it l*e enforced it' tlicrf \v;is a majority of three to one in favour of it ? — No ; I do not tliink so. I think if tiie minority amounti'd to onc-fourtii it could not be enforced. tiOaGl. la your objection to prohil)ition an objection to the principle, or because you think it impracticable? -I think it would be Ix'tter to get at the facts. 39562. Then you will not express an ojiinion .' — 1 do not care to say much a))Out it. 39563. This may be a (juestion of fact, is the trade of the company, as managed by yourself in Yictoriii, increasing or not ; 1 refer to the licjuor trade .'— 1 do not tiiink it is inci'easing in the same ration as the poj)ul.ition. 39564. .|)o you think that the licpior habits of the peojile are decreasing ? — Yes. 395G5. To what do you attribute that decrease .' I tiiink \'ery j)robai)ly to the a\erage earnings of the people being not so large as they weic yeai's ago, and ai.so to the fact that the peoph; are rising higher socially, and there is less exccssivi' d/inking going on. 39566. You think that as the peo))le rise higher socially, they drink less .' T think the average drinking is less. 39567. If there is a steady diminution in the drinking consumption liy the people, i^rthat an indication that they are improving socially .'—1 do not know how far that argument woidd work, but I certaiidy ihink that if the peo|)le are sjiending a large pro- portion of their earnings on licpior there must be excess. .''i9568. Have you noticed as a business man that the li(pior trartic has an effect either injuriously or beneficially upon other branches of business ? 1 ha\e nevt-r noticed that it was injurious to other branches. 39569. Have you noticed that it was beneticial? — No, but I have notii'cd that any ]>ros])erity throughout the country made the licpior trade better. 39570. I la\e you noticed any cas»' in wiiicii the li(pioi' trade was oppi)sed to the prosperity of other branches of liiisiness? — No. 39571. lla\e you noticed that l)usiuess men liave gone to pieces because of the liquor trade and hal)it ? — It goes without saying that men in all l)ranches of life who drink to excess go to pieces. 39572. Hav(> you noticed whether there is a tendency on the part of those who drink moderately to til ink to excess in any percentage of cases.'--! have not studied tiiat subject. Bi/ Jiid(ji' McDonald : 39573. Take the people who use into.xicating li>pioi's as beverages : is the percent age of such persons who drink to excess large oi' small ? — T should tiiink it was sniiill, certainly of those who come under my own personal observation. 39574. You have spoken in legartl to Alaska. Do you know the modes by which suiuggling was carried on there? — A gicat ileal of li(|Uor is smuggled by steamers. The price is very high and those; who cariy on the trade successfully make lai'ge profits some times and large fortunes. 39575. How is it carried on ? — Tiie liejiior u'oes on sU)0]is, schooniMsand small boats, also'on the steamers, in spite of the ])recautions of the otllcers. ;>9576. Is the lii|uor smuggled in in its original j)ackages ? — I do not think so; it is generally concealed. There are a number of ways in which liipior can be brought in. and to which my attention has been called. It is taken in by some barrels (jwned prol)ably by some deck-hand and near some town or village he has a customer for the liipior. He keeps watch until dark and then throws the bai'i'cls overl)oaril taking care to leave suthcient vactniui in the cask to ensure its lloating. Of course, there is a man ready to take it oft'. There are all .sorts of tlevices resorted to. I liav e known of liquor going from here all the way uj) to Juneau on an open sloop. ■'59577. What is the distance '. \ sujipose 1,01)0 miles. 3957s. The water connuunication is the oidy way of conimmiicating with thai territory, 1 suppose? It is the only one. 39579. There is nothing on the other side ?- No. RouKiiT H. Hall. 492 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 KOBEUT II. HALI. iccall..l. .'{!)r),SO. [ ?losii'c to 11(1(1 to my stiitfiiient that two or tlii'ec; y(>aiN ago tlic (Governor ot" Alaska ([ am not siii(! of the exact date) t'clt that it was so ditlicult to deal with the li([Uoi- ti-artic, that he uiulei-took to assume the respnnsilnlity of granting temporary licenses to xcndors of li(|iior, while he |iro|)osed to make such i-epresentation to Congress as would make the license system permanent. Tlie lii|Uor dealers in Alaska iield a me(!ting to discuss the matter, and tJKMcsult of their dcliherations was, that tliey de- cided that so far as they were concerned, they would not accept temporary licenses or any other licenses, on the ground that the ]i(]Uor trad(.' was more j)r()tital)le under pro hihition than it would Ik; to them under license. />•// AVc. Dr. MrLwd: .■M)i">8l. What is your helief alxmt it .' — I lielievi that the contention uf the liipiur men was ([uite correct. .■5!t.")S'_'. You arctic niannger of the wlioloale Kusiness, and you believe the li([Uor business is more pidtital-le without licen.ses of any kind than with it?--T do not know h(^w il would work witii us, hut it is certjiinly more ]irotit,diic witlioiil license tlian wit h it. .'i'.).")S.'i. i )o you conclude in \iew of the ^t.itcmciit you ha\-e made, that the men in the li(pior liusiness in Alaska are disreputable men ' I >lioul(l think they wci(( not so loyal as they should be. ;?',».")S4. Wiiat do you mean by that? — Loyal subjects ought to be able to woik under the la\\s of the country in wiiich they are living. .■i9.")S."i. 1 )o you know of any other trade that would resort to tiic same tiiim.' ? — T have never heard of anything similar. ;5!)r)8(). I )o you regard that sort of thing as the outcome of the li(iiior trade .' - 1 have never l)een in a ])rohibitory country except Alaska, so [ cannot speak in rtigard to that matter. .'{i)5,^7. Are W(; to understand t h.ii the men in .\la>ka \iolating the law were an exceedingly lawl(!ss class of men? They were certainly lawless so far a^ the licpiof tralHc was concerned. •"{OnSS. They preferred to be lawless men rather than stilimit t lelaw .' riie pro- hibition in Alaska is faxourable to law lcs>ines> : that is to say, that law less ni'ii will tind more eiicouiagenient under prohibit ion than under license. .'1!)."S'.). Is jirohibition favourable to lawlessness or is drunkenness a jiart of lau less- ness .' Prohibition to my mind is the product of lawlessness. .■t9.")!tO. Why ! It certaiidy allbrds them an opportunity to be lawless. ."p'.)")!U. Is that prohibition enforced or prohibition disregarch.'d ?— It is prohibition which otlicials are not able to enforce. .'$!ri92. Why unable to enforce \ Is it iiecause of the lawless character of the men engaged in the trade' It is Ijecause they haxc not got the support of the ]ieo|i|e. .'i!).")l).'5. ( )f what people? — < )f the great majority of the i)opulation. :V,I:-)!)I. Tn Alaska?- -Yes. ."{i)")!!."). The population of Abe^ka is made up uciierally of that class uf jicople ; are thev such people as live in X'iitoria for the most part? — Peo|ile in the (lil!'ercnt yrades of life are to a certain extent >imilar. There are of course lawyers, doctors, storekeepers, and merchants. f do not know that the jjroiiortion of labourers is smaller or the per- centage of th(! higher classes laiger than here. .'ill.liKl, Is the condition of the pojiulalion in .\laska similar to the condition of the po])ulatioii in older and longer orgaiu/ed conimunitics. or is it the same ius here? — In other ri^spects the people of Alaska ar(^ very law-abiding. .39.'")!)7. Except with regard to the drink tratlic? -Yes. ]My ex[)erience hiis led mo to l)eli(>ve that if |)rohil)ition was attempted anywhere else it would he attended with similar results. liij JikIijp. Mr Donald : .'i',l.")!)t!. Take another state of things. You have a great many men who go from here to Alaska aiifl beyoml, looking for seals \ — Yes. 403 Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 39o91). If those people had to make choice between sealing fur their own i)leasure or coininj,' under a system of catching seals during certain hours of the days and on certain terms and had to pay a licc^nse fee, which system do you think tlmy would prefer? — I think they would prefer to seal as they pleased. 39600. Of coui'se, sealers ai'e nny, as regards the maiidand. The Island was a separate Crown colony up to about 1(S56. 39612. Then you came here before the union of the two .sections? — Yes. I went to the mainlantl. ^Ir. Cameron was Chief Justice here, and I was a Judge on the mainland. ."'.961 3. I suppose this province has always been under a license systen), .so far as the sale of iicpior is concerned, since you came here? — ^Yes, 1 think so. 39614. Have you had any experience in a country where there was a prohibitory law in force ? -Yes. .3901o. Whei-e ? — In the North-west Territories not long ago. 39610. How long were you there? — -Two days, and I never was so pestered in my life. HouKHT H. Hall. 494 ' 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 ■'i'Jt)17. Wliy / — IJecause T luitf raw spirits inyscli, and ev<-ryliiiily was postering; me to take what they called whisky. They seemed to think it was the duly of a man ti) drink all the whisky he could, and everyl)<)dy had it. MitOlS. l)id you take any of it? T tried onee or twice to take it, l)ut it was .'ibominahle stuff. My t'riends treated me with the utmost kindntiss and wvio most hospitable. There intentions were of tlie kindliest. I was like Gulliver when in Brol)diii<(naif where tlie people were so exceedingly hospitable that they jjitcli-forked tid-l)its from their own mouths into the mouth of poor (Jullivei'. •■590 l!t. In what section of the North-west Territories were you ? — I went on to ('ali.cary and on the way I stopped at Donald. It was in ISS"). At that time I consideied l)onald to be pai't of the North-west Territories and subject to the Dominion prohibitory law. The prohibition of the sale of liquor extended all over the railway belt, which projected far into British Columbia, at that time even t(^ Seymour Narrows. 1 beliexe the sale of li(|uor was pr(jhil)ited from that point to Revelstoke ami J)onald, all the way for a distance of 2U miles on each side. ■■?!)G20. Can vou speak in regard to the sale of liquor at Donald and Revelstoke ?— Yes. .'iHd'-'l. Was thei'e sale of liquor then>.? — No doubt. T was on ciivuit, and F was trc.'itcd to all the liquoi' 1 wanted, gratis. •VJG'2'2. Did you see any ales or light wines in that Teiritorv ? — I took some clai'et myself. .^OfiL'S. Did you take that with you I — Yes, for my own use. .'59G24. Did you see any one else have it there ? — No. •■<962r). I will I'ead you a paragraph fram a Ixiok recently iiublishetl. It is wi-ittiMi by Warbui'ton Pike on "The l>ari-en (ii'ounds of Northern Canada.'' He refers to the territory away north of Calgai'y, iiiui says : At tiu' present time tlie |»r()liil)iticiii Act uriier-s tliiit even the white iiiiiii of the Nnitli-west 'reni- lories iiiiust lie lemjiei'iite, theieliy eiiiisiiis,' whisky tci lie |)en in countries where although they did not have a prohibitory law, there was total abstinence on religious grounds. In Turkey, esju'cially in C'onstan- finoj)le, you can not get a drink, although it is a city of 700, 000, and in Stamboul, on the west side of t\w Oolden Horn, you cannot get a stronger drink than sherbet. I'ut it is a most dangerous popidatioii at night and a very t-riminal one. .31t(i.S7. Supposing a pi'ohibitory law were passed, a law prohibiting the manufacture, importation and sale of jdcoholic licpiors for b(>verage purposes, wcudd you deem it right that brewers and distillers should be comiiensated for loss of jilant and machinery which they use in their busint^ss .' That is a (|Uestion of consi'ience, .'VJd.'JiS. Perha])s you have not consideivd it? I have often considered the point. 1 )t k do iu)t know e.Kactly liow to make up my nnnd, because it is ,i matter ot coiiscienct I, beo 39030. What is urged is this, that bv de.'artmental regulati oils orewers and distilh-rs ha\c been compelled to put in certain machinery, and ha\e been from lime to time conipelled to change their machinery, and moreox i r that a all events, for stioiiger drinks than beer and wine. I beliexe T take three glasses of spirits in a year. ij)tioii of light wines and ales, with a view to giaduallv natural taste for whiskv, ai ul 'fer I )eer ami wine, I at not coinin i!)()-n. Taking youi' e.\|)erieiice as a .Iiidge, has ,iny large pid]iorlion of the case^ g bef lire vou for trial been directly or indirectly tr/iceable to drink — 1 think xcrv few ca.ses have lieen directly attributable to drink, but T has often been the cause of crime. is a oe\-era<{e .'iyti-lL'. So, indirectlv, otlences have 1 n committed That is in y "1 .'iOlil-"). Taking the people of liritish Columbia as you know them and the cities as ■iUp union. I th ([uor vou know them, can vou sav what is the proportion ot those using intoxicating liouoi who use them to excess. Is th 10 pro])ortioii large or small, on the whole ; I am afr 11(1 that a great many ])eop1e us(^ more than is needed for them, but I do not believe tiiey take it to excess. I think if there is one drunken man, tl lere is one too ma ilac 1 hat< drunl' ny in ai l. To what do you attribute the diminution ?— The |i(M>]ilt' an> not so well off. T mean the greater part of the drunkenness I have seen has hecn amongst inincM'S. The mines are not nearly as lucrative now as they wei'e formerly. The ordinary wages of miners in the early days were from !?S to §16 and even $20 a da)'. When an unedu- cated man receives that money he does not know what to do with it except to get drunk. .'5y647. Have you noticecl that educated men ever do so? —I know some of my pei'- .sonal friends who drink to e.xcess. 39l)4S. Is the percentage of uneducated men who drink to excess larger than tiie percentage of those educated '? — Yes, very nmch larger. 39()4!). r am speaking of the proportion of i>eopie educated and uneducated ? — Of course it depends on what you call educated. .■J'J().")0. There is the phrase "excess " which w(? constantly hear ; it seems to be a rather variable term? -So it is. .■{'J().")l. Will you state what is your definition of excess in drinking? --When an Irishman was asked that question, he said that he did not consider any man was drunk to excess until he was lying on his back ; if he was sitting on th(i jiavemctit and ai)le to call a cab he could not be said to l)e drunk. But my opinion is that if a man is not walking steadily h<' has taken too nuich. However, what is excess to one man is not to another. I know the manager of a bank, I will not give his name, who was a very sharp man in business, and he was able to sit all night drinking brandy or whiskv. He would perhaps, drink two or three bottles of whisky and tie a wet towel around his head, and in the eai'ly morning he would go to business. That is what very few men can do. He drank to excess, although he could stand it ; but it told on him in the end. After a few- years he went to the dogs. 396r)2. So there is excessive drinking which docs not show itself on a man in th(^ streets'! — Yes. 39(>53. Do you think th(>re ai'e a large immber of ju'ople who drink to excess, althougii it may not be apparent to the public at the time ? -No, I do not think there is. I do not think there are many men who injure their constitutiims by drinking. There are some poor fellows no doul)t. 396")4. You have spoken in regard to your experience in the North-west Terri- toric*. Did you see many people during tlie two days you were there?- -Yes. 396i)5. Youi' own frii>nds? — Not only my own tViends, there was a whole regiment there. It was th ; year of the rebellion and there was a regiment stationed at Calgary. Besides, I was holding assize and there were lots of people from He\elstoke and Donald and other places. As I was a .fudge, I was handed li(|uor gratis. 396.")(). Yf)u have said that everybody had whisky. T wondered ^vhether they were your own personal friends who induced you to take some of it ? -I also met the captain of the Mounted Police and some other othcers, and very good fellows they were. 39607. They had some li((Uor too?- Lots of it. .39658. The Mounted Police W(>re supposed to be cliarged with the duty of prevent- ing liquor being brought in. How did it liappen that the oHicers had so much li(|uor? — -I do not know how they got it. 396.")9. Did it strike you as jH'culiar ♦hat those men who witii the duty of enforcing the law sIiourI be tliemsei\es violati stantly find that to be the case. .39660. Is that a good state of things? — No, but it sljows such a law. .39661. Or the corroding intluencff of the whisky? — ^tt is perhaps the corroding influence of the two, but mainly the corrotling influence of the law. 39662. If whisky were permitted to come in freely, would it have less corroding influence? Certainly, for the peoph* would not then break the law. 39663. Would they l)e likely to drink if liquor was permitted to come in by law? — They would drink whether the law pernntted them or not; they would obtain liiiuor in anv case. were especially charged ig the law? — You con- .c corroding influence of 497 21—32** Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. slii lli^ .'}!•()(■) 1. 1)1(1 you (il)sci'V(' wlictlici' the li(|U. Do you know wht'tlitT lie ol)taint'd tliat li(|Uor by the ^H-rniit of ihf Lifulc iiunt (!o\('iiioi-, or did he sniuj;f{!(' it in .' — I did not iniiuirc. 3'JG(H1. You said something,' about jL;t)in<; thei'e and the jieoplo handing you liquor gratis. Why was tiiat .' — The .luciges have a veiy bad re|)Utation in this pait of the world. .'lS)(iS. What struek nie as strange is that you said that as you were a Judge, the\ handed you lii|Uor gratis. I wonderecl what was liehind all that in your mind.' — They wished to ticat me witii all the coui'te.sy po.ssible, 1 have nodoulit. .■!!•(■)(')!•. So they gave you illicit li(|Uoi'?-- Yes, they. gave it as a mark of couftesy and liospitality. In fact they knew I eould not buy it here, so it was given to me gratis. .'(•Hull. Is that a <'orrei't way of doing it? You wei'e the head of the judiciai-y, and the peopl(> with whom you came in contact, in oi'der to show hospitality to you, treated you with an abundance of illicit whisky in violation of the law ? — Hecollect wlitm I was at Calgary T was there as a pri\ate gentleman, for it was far beyond my jurisdiction. ■'5'.l()71. You ha\(' heard the ([notation read from the Ixjok of a gentleman who travelled in the noi'thern i-ountry, in which he said }irohibition causes whisky to be ]ileiitiful. Do you think ]ii'ohiliition causes whisky to be plentiful ? — I would not put it as strongly as that. I do not think that j)rohibition very much diminishe che(|uantitv, liut increases it. Hi/ .tiidiji MrDiiiKilil : [VMu'l. The writer did not say that prohibition made it ])lentiful. He said "There- by causing li(|Uor to be bad, l>ut plentifid withal." Have you read the book? 1'iie writer is well knowii in Uritisli Colund)ia. Hif Ji', r. Dr. McLrud : 39t)7-'5. In N'ictoria and throughout the island, I pi'csume, li(iuor is freely obtaineil under liciMise? — Yes, quite so. ;{!)t)74. Speakitig about emigrants coming to this country and the ([uestion whether if they knew prohibition was in force here, they would be as likely to settle as if ther(> was no prohibition, you have said that the conclusion you camt^towas, that they would settle in ;iny counti-y where the habits and customs were most like those at home f — ^'e^. .'iytM-"). Can you concei\e of any jieople who im'ght prefer to go into a region where there was prohibition ? -Y'es. I can conceive of a number of prohibitionists getting together. .■!!t()7ii. Can you conceive of otliers than jirohiliitionists settling in a country were there was i>rohiliition .' -I myself, going into a strange town, instead of going into a saloon and passing tlie night there, go to i tem|)erance hotel, because T like aquiet niglit. .'59(577. Then you think the temperance hott'l more (juiet than the hotid witli a bar ' — Y'es, and more favourable tor sleeping. ;iy()7S. Is it your experience that the liquor trallic as cai'ried on in bar-rooms, is an interference with quiet and sleep '.' Yes, with sleej). AN'hen nien get together, tliey begin to talk, and of course they do this in the bar rtH)m. If I want to sleop I prefer the temperance hotel, for this night only. ;{i)()79. Is it your observation that the li(|Uor trathc, iis carried on in bar-rooms, is an interference with a person's (|uiet Mud an interference with the social lite, moral life and bu'^iness life of the community? — No, 1 do not think so. ;{9t>S(). Is the li(|Uor traile, as carried on, productive of crime in any degree .' I luave already said that li(im)r cannot lie fairly said to be productive of crime, but that drinking is very often the occasion on which crime takes place. If liquor had been absent, there would not have been the occasion. A great many crimes occur in what might be called a drunken row ; but when a man is going to commit a burglary he takes care to be sober. 8iR Matthew Bailliu Bkguik. 498 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 .■li)t'i,sl. Ildvp villi oltst'i'vi'il that tlin ot'diimry iniiii wlicii lio bi';;ins to drink Ijpcoiin's ri'i^iilfirly filiicatixl to tlic drink lialiit ( — I liavo never oWservcd tliiit one way or the oilier ill rej^ard to tlie drink liahit. I have often observed tliat wli(>n an uneducated man gets a sum ot' money, tlie only tliini,' he appears able to di> is to ifo and i;et drunk. .'tOllSi*. It' a biiru'lar kec-ps suiter t'or business |)iirposos, do you think it would be well t'or other men to keep sobei' tor l)iisincss pui-poses .'-- 1 am eertain it would. .'re you could obtain it?— That was after two weeks' enforced abstinence. •'i!MiSl. Krom which are there greater e\il results: the drink trallic, as carried on, or inability to get litpior occasionally?-- I should say, on tht^ whole, the inability to get liipHir. The drink trade is not a great (tU'ence if you keep out of the way of it. il'.M'iS."). Does it place itself in the way of peoph^ who otherwise would keep out of the way of it ? - No, f think you can generally keej) out of its way. .'i!l()S(i. Speaking of the Turks, you said that you could not get any lic|uor iiiTui'koy, excpjit a certain kind. Do you believe that if the Turkish (lovernmenl pro\ ided facili- ties for drinking freely, the Turks would tliereb\- become a good and ordcrlv peo])|e .' — - No, I ilo not think so. It is not in the nature of the people. Hut the supci'ior races of men are greatly given to liipior. .'MHIST. You think that is the charactei'i.stie of a superior race C)f men .' Yes ; they are apt to do it to excess. .")!M)S8. Are the superior nieti in this country the men who get. drunk ? - -The infe- rior races of men do not drink. Jlowexer, it is a ipiestion of constitution. Y'ou take the African from Africa ■ he is tpiite as fond of rum as Pitt was. As a rule, yoii will find the class of men who keep .sober an inferior race. T would be sorry to see men. white men. rediu'cd to the level of Miiuloos. ;5'.l()Sit. Do you think if the people of this country abstained from linuor. tiiey would be reduced to the level of Hindoos .' No. I think the people l)elonging to tiie white race would not submit to be prohiiiited obtaining licpior, for they would have it. .SOCiDO. Ts it because they are the superior racc^ that they will get it ? Take men in this country who do not drink : are they inferior to men w ho do drink, intellectually or [ihysically ? I should think it a sign of inferiority. ;$l)()i)l. Intellectually, physically or morally f I should consider it a maik of infe- riority if a man cannot drink, or does not driidv, and if he will not drink. He might abstain from religious motives or for the sake of example. These are high and good motives, but for a man to abstain simply because his constitution cannot stand ft. that is a mark of distinct inferiority. .'iiXiOJ. Take the people of N'ictoria, men who drink and men who do nut Iriiik. Are the men who do not tlrink inferior to the men who do drink ! — I have vei-y little acipiaintanci' with men who do not drink. T associate with men who drink. If a man takes a pint of claret a day, I consider hedrinks. ;ilMi!t,']. Is he morally superior to the man who does not drink? I think he is superior morally, intellectually and ])hysically. .'iilti'.tt. Y'^ou think he is a stronger and better man '. A stronger ;iiul better man, who is carrying out the law of the JJible. .'ilXli)"). Would you, in the interi'st of the country, physically, intellectually and morally, ha\e the liquor trader I'ai'iied on freely without let or hindrance? ^No ; 1 do not think it should be carried on without let or hiiidra U!e. .■il)()!)t). Why have any restrictions/ Because I believe there should be some restric- tions on the ti'ade. The wi.sdom of mankind has placed restrictions on it. In all coun- tries restrictions have been placed on the li(|uor trade. .'V.H)',(7. Can you say why that is? -That is a question entirely for the legislators to say : but I siijipose one reason would be that all ])laces where peo[ile assiMiibli' under circumstances should be regulated, aiu therefore you find all placiw of assembly regu- lated by law. Places of public gatherings, theatres and all establishments whert^ liipior is sold are regulated by law. H!)698. Does this apply to any other trade except the liquor trade ? -I do not know of othei' trades being regulated in exactlv the same way, except, perhaps, theatres. 499 21— 32i** ■ I ill liiquor Traffic — IJritish Columbia. They arc not i'ej;uliitecl, ho\vev«'r, iMiciiuse tliey <(irry mi tho tnule, but liccause tlicy ain places of resort and places of nieetinjj;. This jirinciple of ref^ulation ap(>lics not only to tlie lii|uor tratlic, but to all plaoes of public nicctin;,'. .S!it')i)'J. Do you think if those |)laccs were not re<;ulate(l, they would prfnlucc a com- bination of disordei-s that would be disastrous to the ccjniniunity f -Just tin? same as uieetin;;s in Trafalfjar .S(|uare : they are all reij;ulatcd and controlled by the police. ;{!)700. Would the meeting's in Trafalj;ar .S(|uare re(|uire to be re^julated, except for the fact that the liquor trade is a larj^e factor'/ — The liijuor trade has nothing' to do with political meetings held in Trafalj^ur JStpiare. 1 do not see the connection of vour ((ues- tion. 39701. Would not the; larger propoitiftn of the men be under the influence of liquor? — Certainly not. Speaking of jirohibition? — T desire to say that this does not only iipply to Trafalgar Sijuare. There was a similar instance at Chelsea, whei-e the jieojile started to preach, and that of course had to be I'cgulatcd by law. The Salva- tionists, in the same way, should be ct)ntrolled by law. '•VJ102. Is it the same as regards bar-rooms? — I believe they are a most mural and excellent set of people, but they go a1)out beating their big drums and singing like a lot of drunken Siwashes, and they should be controlled. ;iy70l5. Do you think measures to control them should be adopted in a like manner to the measures ado]3ted towards the liquor trade? 1 do not know what means might be adoptetl to prevent the nuisance and annoyance, for it might rather be dignifying them by giving them too much prominence. I do not know that anyone is afraid of the Salvationists, but j)eople find them to bo a nuisance. .'5970*. Are pei)[)le afraid (jf the litpior trade? — Some people appear t:> be. 3970"). Is it because a great many people are afraid of the li- hibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverage purposes, do you think it would be right to enact such a law? — If the sky were to fall we would catch plenty of larks, and they would be very cheap. 39712. That is not an answer to the question ? — I beg your pardon. Your state- ment is as practicable as my supposition that the sky might fall. You said that pro- vided three-fourths of the people were to desire a general prohibitory law. I do not think that it is at all possible. 39713. I am not a lawyer, but reading the law as enacted, I have learned this : That not so many years ago there was little or no regulation or restriction placed on the liquor trade, and now everywhere there are restrictions placed around that trade. Do these increased restrictions express the popular sentiment ; do you so explain them ? — All highly educated, legitimate entiment favoured it. I object to the word restriction, Sir Matthew Baillie Regbie. 500 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 I would nillior us(> tlif woi-d regulation, lieoausc tlici'e is irally no ivstriction on tiie quantity that may be sold. . 3!i711. Froui youi-cxptirioncc as a .Indict! and oli.scrsation as a eiti/cn, can you say whetluM' the license law, as it stands to-day, I'egulalcs the liiiiior trade ? — The lieenso law to-day professes to regulate the ti'ade, and it should ho olieyed. .'J'J71o. ft |)rofesseH and is intended to regulate the trade, hut as a matter ot' fact does it regulat(! it? — I think it does, to a very great extent. I do not know t)t' any cases where it does not I'cgulate the trade, except where the trailers sell licpior to Siwaslies. These cases are unfortunate. l)Ut they appear to continue in spite of tiie law. ."V.tTlt). Do the men in tii(^ trade sell lic|unr to Siwaslies? — No, not the men in the trade exactly. 31)717. Then what men sell? — That is rathci' a (|uestion for the Police .Magistrate. They are generally a \eiy low class of men, who liuy liiiuor in order to sell it a^ain to the Si washes. 3II718. Of course, as a Judge, you lielieve in the enforcement of the law ] — T think .so. If there is a bad law enacted, the best way of getting it repealed is to carry it out sti'ickly until it is repealed. ■'i',)71'.l. Do you bolie\e a law against an evil thing creates a strong jiuhlic senti- ment against that e\il thing.' — I do not think I ever considered that proposition. tt might strengthen public sentiment, and might at the same time raise an outcry against it and weaken it. .■(1)720. If a law against an e\il thing is to be abulished l»;eause of an outcry raised against it, would you, as a . Fudge, more rigidly enfurce the law .'— T would, as a .Judge, endeavour to enforce the law that was on the statute-book ; that is all I woidd be able to do. .39721. Do you believe law is an educator ? — It is an educator, but very nfteii it educates by bad example. A batl law educates the people as much as a good law, in some sense. Jii/ Judge MuDonald : 39722. Is it not a fact that animosity is aroused against a prohibitory law, because the people belicNC that th(( law is against a thing that is not an evil ? — Yes, that is what I meant by saying that a bad la*^- evt-n educated the people as much as a gfiod law. Thtn' believe a thing illegal if contrai'v to Statute, but it is not immoral. When a law is pressed more and more against this, they are more and more educated to belie\f in the immorality of the law. .311723. In sj)eaking of the Xoi'th-west ^luunted Police, you of course referi'e(l to the cillicers with whom you came in contact? — Yes, certainly, and I found them nice gentleniaidy men. 31)724. I suppose you had nil intercourse with the privates .' — \o ; imt I iieveisaw (uie of them undi.'r the inlluence of liqiKpr. Bi/ Jiei: Dr. Mcb',„l: 31)72o. Did we understand you to say that theotlicers and men had li(|Uor in plenty ? — They seemed to have, and were re|)orted tn have. They seemed to be a sober, superioi' class of nu-n, superior inttdlectually, morally and jihysically to the nuMi who ne\er took whisky. 31)726. Do you attribute that to the fact that they took li(|Uor? — No. You ai'o attributing to me the cause instead of the eH'eet. I say that the su]ierior class of men and nations, as I have observed them, are fond of liipior, and only inferior nations al)stain from liijuor. Xot that there is any inferioi'ity liecause they abstain, but they abstain because they are inferior. All the Anglo-Saxon nations art^ fond of liquor, and they are, and I belong to one of them, considei-ed to be superior to the ordinary races. 39727. Then the desire for liijuor is an indication of superioi-ity ? — I think so, cer- tainly. 39728. Then abstinence from liquor is an indicat'on of inferiority? — I suppo.se .so. 501 m w HM-' I fern .!i!S Pi'.'; Ijl: IS i'! VmB' li Liquor Traflic — British ('olmnl)ia. Jii/ Jiid;/e McDouidd : 3972!'. I HuppoHe«vou wiml us U> take tliiit iinswci- subject tn wind you Iiiim' sliitcil bnforc, witli vdur pi'cvious oxplaniitiim ','— -Yt-s ; cvcii liiirlmrijiiis !ii'(! t'uiid of li(|uni'. n,f liri'. Dr. MiLiixl: .■t!»7-'tO. Wliiit iiliout tlic FiKlidiis iiiid Hiilt'-lirocds and tSiwasht's, wlioai'o vimt fund of li(|U<>r : arc tlit-y supoi'ior ? — Nil. I dinerations of water drinking on the one side and wim- drinking on the otlier has not imi»roved the relative ))osition of the total abstinence men ; on the contrary, the posi- tions are entirely reversed, and many Christian nations are now able, singly, to cojie with the whole force of Islam. And the relative progress of the Christians in arts and sciences and learning has not been less ))ronounced, but is ever more remarkable than their advance in armed strennth. As anothei' example : I lu-xcr heard of anybody here who ever saw a drunken Chinaman ; yet thi.s extraordinary sobriety has not enalileil them to gain a higher posi- tion thai the wliisky drinking c(»lonists of European race. Again : The Mormons have been compelled by their religion to be total abstainers during three generation.'-- ; but they have shown as yet no su]>eriority, i)hysically, morally or intellectually, over the surroundin'T Centiles. HiB Maithkw B.\ili,ik Bi;(iiuK. 602 57 Victoria. SesHional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 It is fuitlicr I'ciimi'kiilili' tluit wliciciis all (.'liristiiiii cnminimitirs aw l>y llif ('xi;;iMi fip8 of tlicir rcli^^ioii lioiiiul at least to llic (ici'asiona! iihc lit' vviiic, ('Diiiiiiiiiiit i(>s wlio fcji'i't all t't'iiiiciitt'd wines or lii|iiors are precisely fli )se wlm rejeel ( 'liristiaiiily. I''.\('ii aniniij,' tlie most i},'iioraiit and liailiai'ous .savajii's, wlio i!eli;{lit in riini, tlie al)ori;^ine,s of Afi'ica, are more Mu.seeiitihle to tiie teaeliiiigs of our mi.ssionai'ies timii are the watei-- ili'iiikin^' Aralis who o[)|)i'ess tlicm, So. too, the imlians (»f this continent who ha\e iini\ersaliy a taste for tiie water, are more open lo Cluistian teachiin;s than the Mor- mons. ,\nil. I lielie\e. the same ol)ser\ation Imlds as luiween the hii^her and lower castes of the I lindoos. I don't mean to say that these fa<'ts estahlisii the utility of whisky drinkin;; or any mischievoiis |)ro|)erties in water. If the 'i'lirk.s had lieen drinkinit spirits ever since the crusade, and the Uussians nothing; hut water, it is of course possiliie that the lever sal of their ielati\(' strenylhs miifht have lieen more ridiculously cj|i\iiiiis than it is now. I am as far from suj{i,'estinj,' that Christianity is founded un alcohol as that .Mojiam- medism is hased on water. All I contend for is that the use of alcohol is compatilile with I'reat improvenu-ut all aliuii; the line, an.C.. of Victori.r. Iiartister-at-lrw. on heirij; duly swoi'ir, deposed as follows ; Bi/ Juihje McDoiKtId : I5'J7-'i">. You ai'i' a hai'r'isler'and also a notary and Queens ( 'ourrsel of ()ritario; Yes. MDT.'iti. How lonu lra\c you lixcdin JtrMt islr Coluurliia ( 1 was here oil' aird ..n a nurrrlier'of years hefor'e I settled here linally. I think I came herein 1^7.") aird I'enrained until 1S81, 'i'hen 1 wasaliseiit irri^il ISSI. I ictuirred at that time and lia\e I'cmairied since. 'M^l'M. ^'ou arv well aci|Uaiirled, 1 belie\ e, w itli the ( )ntario License J^aw ? 'i'es. i think I was also in Ontai'io when the Scott Act was in for'ce. I was tlier'c in IS.sI-.Sl'. .S!J7."IS. What couirty were you iir ? I was at l?i-ockville. The Act carrre into forre on 1st May. LSSO. 1 was hack ther'c, and went to Ottawa on soiire business. .'5!)7.'5i(. Did you see anythinu' of its opei'ation when you wer'e there ? -Tlier'c were old nren who wer-e in the habit of diinkin;;, anil wlren they could iret nothing to drink they were better men. .'59740. Do you krrow whether they did i;et liipior' or' net?— They I'an over' to Mor-- ristown and obtained what they wanted. < )f course there weie u great many wlio did not get it. The farmer's who came in then went home sober. 503 Liquor Traffic — British CoJiimbia. ;5D74 1. I )i) you kiK)\v how the Act operated in later years?— I was not back there then. 39742. Do you know what hecanio of tlie Act? ft was repealed. 39743. Why? — I do not know. There was a larj^e majority who voted in the counties for it originally, and a still greater majority Noted to repeal it at the (Mid of three years. It twuld not be repi 'ed until after thr(;e years. 39744. Then you do not know wiiy it was repealed? -No, I was not there at the time. .■5'./745. Since you came here, have you noticed any change in the social customs of the people, whether there is less liquor used now than formerly ', I am not a drinking man myself ; I never go into a saloon. 3974(). I mean in rvgard to the people, whether there is more or less liquor taken since you came to the province, at [Kiblic me(!tiiigs and at family gatherings? — F do not know. I do not associate with driidr''47. Are you a total abstainer ,' -No, I never was, lama temperanci! man, but I do not bi'hmg to any temperance society. I do not s ly that I do not drink, but T do not care about it, and I do not take any credit to myself for not drinking. 3'J74S. Were you at any time brought into connection witli the license law ! - I was Police .Magistrate for three years. .39749. Tak(^ tiie cases that came befijre you, was any large perciMitage attributable to the use of into.vieating licpiors?- -When I first took otHce there was no punishment for drunkenness. We had the ])ominion law, the V^agrancy Act. Simple drunkenness was no otVeiice, and some other offence had to be coujiled with it, sucli as being a nuisanct^ Subsecpiently the City Council passed a by-law making drunkenness an ott'ence. I think this law was in force two years before I ga\e u}). 397")0. Hail you many cases under it?--! do not remend)er : the i-eturns will show. T had to prepare two sets of I'eturns, one a return of offences under the provincial statute, and one under i)ominion statute. I do not know wliether my predecessor or successor did tliis, but T tiioiiglit it was necessary. ;{:)7")1. in case of the enactment of a general |)rohibitorv law, a law t(j prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale -. Would that instance seem to indicate that the Scott Ai^t so fai' as those counties were concerned had the ell'ect of destiny ing the liipior trade? — I think it did. T do not pretend to say wliether there was as much liipior drunk there afterwards or not. .")97-'"i-"). Sj)eaking .iboul ciniijiensation : sometimes changes an; made in the tariff which almost destroys business interests. Do you think it would be right to coi:ipen- ,sate all traders in such cases? Tarn not looking at the ([uestion in that light, but I certainly tiiink that if the State licenses men to manuf.icture undtu" Dominion Ij.w.-, and grauls permits to establish distilleries, aiu! if it is decided later on that it is in the in- tiM-ests of the [uiiilic to desti'oy those businesses, T think the public should compensate* the jiaities. •")97o4. .Vbout the prohibition of the trade : do you think it is desirable in the in- terests of the country plnsically. morally or socially to ])i'ol>ibit the drink trade over the whole country.' — i n(>M'i was in favour of it : I ,im not a prohibition man. •397"ir). Are you op[)osed to the princi])le of prohibition .' i think that such a law is right ie , rinciple, liecause li-pior is the souireof a great deal of evil, an hy people to protect themselves. ;i97-")7. Do you think it is well to establish a trade that pro\i(les facilities f(-' tiiat man's excessive drinkinjj; ! — You nii^ht .shut up butcher shops aceordiiig to that arLtument. ^Vll men do not drink to excess .397")^. l>o you tl.ink tliat butcher sh ps and drinking; shops are ((uite alike? -There are a i^reat many d' spepties in this eounti'v, and all of them aic manufactured by over eatini;. You niii.jlu. ask for the closini; up ot sugar refineries. American women are noted for eatinj^ sugar and becomint^ dyspeptics. Pretty neai'ly all the women in .America are tr(jubled with dyspepsia. They are not nearly as strong as old country women who have 10 oi' b") children. .■{'.)7o!). l)o you think drinking and oxer eating .ire parallel .' l)o you include lliem in the same category .' Yes. .'397<)0. Do you think over eating is as injurious to the country at large as is drink- ing?- -f think there are more drunkards than dyspeptics. Soirie iikmi commit a grejit many crimes througli liipiov by having their tempers aroused. Take, for instance, crimes resuiting from scenes of \iolence, assaults, murders and ollences of that kind, which are more or less the result of drink. .■5!t7(>l. Which do vou think is the more injurious to the community as established to-day, the di'ink trad(!, or the meat and grocery trade '. — \Ve cannot get along witlinut the meat and grocery trade. .I.V.MES 1y Mc.Ml 1J..VN, of N'iclo'ia, High Sherill' for the Couuly of Victoiia. .m being duly sworn, deposed as follows: lij/ Jnilge JfrDonald : .■i'.)7()2. I )oes tlu^ county take in more than the city .' Vcs, it takes in nearly ,ill the island. .'ii)7();i. How long have you been High Sheriff ? -Eight years. ;?l)7t)4. How long ha\e you I'esided in the proxinee '. Thirty-two years. .S!t7().j. Did yini come here from one of the other provinces '. ^'es, from llurham, < )niario. .■i97ry law la-re '. -No. 3il7<')9. How ha\e you found the license j.iwop.Mate. H;is it been sat i-faetoiy or otherwise .' -How do you 'ncin, generally ! •'^9770. ^'es, generally in this cominunitv. Have the pro\ i.^ions been well obser\e(l ' -Yes. .'59771. The restrictions lia\e been increased latterly, we understand .' Yes, slightly. ■T977l'. Do you think it has been for the public benefit .' - Certainly. .■{!I77;>. Have you consid(M'ed the (pu^stion of pri-hibition .' 1 ha\e ihoiiglit of it and read of it. 39774. Are you fa\durable to prohibition on principle?- I think so. 3977'). Have you formed any opinion as to whether it would be practicable to enforce it on this island ( I think it would be just as practicable as any other law, .dt hough the people lia\(' certain ideas iis regaril tlieii' lilierty. ."i977(i. Do you think there would be any difficulty in (Mifoicing it,' No more ililliculty than with any other law, if you only get the men to do it. 39777. ^'oii mean to enforce a law to prohibit i;ianufactun% im]>orlalion and sale of intoxicating beverages for drinking purposi^sl- T think if there were proper otliiials appointed who did their duty, it c luld be enforced. 605 m Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. h:v 31) 1 1' Ifave tkm?— N(. you l)e(>n in any cou ntry wIkmh! tlicro lias hceii siu'li a lav opera- 3i)77!>. ])<> yt'U know anytliinj; in re^^ard to tlic operation ot' the law in tlio \oitli- west Territoi-i('s '/ — Not tVoni personal observation, only from what I have read. .'iOTJ^O. ]la\ o you considered the (juestiou of j^ivintinj; remuneration to brewers and distillers, in tht, e\'ent of tln^ passage of sueh a law, foi' their loss of ])lant and machinery ? — No, 1 have not given that subject consideration. 397S1. You are not pre])ared to say whether it would lie rigiitor wrong ? — I do not .see what claim they would have, any more tiiiui compensation might be claimed for changes in the taritl'. .■{il7S2. You put those cases on the same footing? — Yes. .'V.t7S;i. Have you considered the terms of the statute and the departmental regula- tions regai'ding i)rewers and distillers, who have to put^ in certain mai'hinery and plant, and distillers are comjielled to keep their stock for two years! — T do not think it would be a fair thing to give those men the right to stai't business and then to legislate av th leir busniess without ])aying tlicun somt th .'thing. .■?'.)7SI. Have vou thouifht of the enfe rcemeiit ot ;i general prohibitory law 3it78."). Will you kindly state to the (commission the mode of enforcement you Would adojit to prevent smiiggling liere? — 1 tliink the macliiiiery we have now would be suilicient to prevent smuggling. .'5!t7S(). In the North-west Teri'itories the (lovcrnmeiit maintained a force of Mount- ed Police of 1,000 men cliarged with the entorcement of thi' law, and with a right to search houses and iiei'sons. Would vou favour the adoption of such a law here .' Yes ; id have a law to prevent the inti'oduction of lii|Uor into the country. rS7. Are travell(!rs landing from .lapan and louni for 1-: their hand baggage? — Yes, they are search<8. Y ou would lie sa tisfied with a law of llial kind .' Yes. 1 liii to it : 1 rather favoui' it. I'e no olijecticiii Jhj Jieo. Dr. JlrLi'ud: .■J EARN KS'I' H .VLL. M. I)., of N'ietoria, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; /< // ./lid;/ ' ilcDoiiiilil : '■Wi\)'l. How long have you resided in Itritish C/'olumbia ?^-Two years. :i!)7!*M. |)id you come here from one of the other ])rovinces? — T came from llaliipii County. ( )ntario. .'i'.'7',) b hid you live there durini;- thetiiiieof theSeoK .\ct ; I was there attend ing college. .■I!t7'.)*i. When you came here, did ytiu find a license law in force?- Yes. •'i!l7i*(i. How did you liiid the license law work ? I am not jn'epared to answer that (|U("stion directly, not having had my attention called particularly to the v\orking of iIh' license law. •■i!)7i)7. As between prohibition and license, wliicii do you favour? The only pm hibition of which T have had any experir>nce was in the County of Ifaldm under iln' .Iami.s H. McMillan. 5()(; 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 8cott Act, and it certainly diniinislied the f|uantitv of liriuof euiisiinieil, ti) a very ;,'reat extent. ;{;)7'.)8. Duyou tliink sucli a law woulil I )e beneficial ? — Yes, decidedly. I tliiidv sucli was my pcfsonal experience as a youni,' man. .•{9799." Was tlu^ Act r.-pealed ? Yes. ' .■{9S00. Do you know if etl'orts have heen made to pass it again since it was repeal- ed?— Not that I know of. .S9801. Have not three y(>ars to elapse hefoi-e the Act can lie tested aijain .' -I do not know. .'{980:2. Have v<>u considered the subject of prohibition .' -1 have. ."{9803. Are ^.. . favourable to it .' Most certainly. .'{9804. A.s a matter of pi'inciple ? As a matter of principle. .■{9805. Do you think it wrong to licensf the liipior trade ; I do. .■{980f). Do you think it is ;i, sin ! It is a sin to license it. ;!98(J7. Tn case of tie' enactment of a general pi'ohibitory law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic licpiors for beveragt,' pur]>oses, do you think brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of jilant and machinery? — -I think not, as they have all gone on with the understanding that the iirivilegc nn'ght lie taken away from them at any time. liij Bnv. Dr. McLmd: .'{9S08. |)o you think a general pi'ohibitory law could l)e well enforced .' — ^I do. .'{9809. Have you observed the license law sutticiently to know whether it is enfoi'- ced or not ? -I think it is not. 39810. Have you I'eason to believe that the prohiliitory provisions of the license law are observeil i Yes . .'{9811. Di) you know whether theie is illicit sale by others than licensees ? Tln'i'e is. •■{9Sr2. I )o you know whether an attempt has been made t

ay it is as easy, but I think it is as practicable. .'{981 1. Do you think such a law could be well enforced, enforced as well as the prohibitory clauses ? I thiid< so. .'{981.'). (.'omj)aring ilaltoii under I he Scott .Vet and X'ictoria under license, which would j'ou prefer I Halton under Scott Act most decidedly. .'{981(1. How do you account for the fact that Halton rejiealed ihe Si'ott Act later on? — It was a matter of opinion among a great many that the weak-minded temper- ance men violated the law themselves, and so condemned the whole system. .'{9817. i)id you inidei-sliind the repe.d of the Scott .\ct a> the vcidict ofthe people against pr«ihibiti()n ? ]}y no means. o9818. Have you reason to believe that many of the people who voted against the Seott Act and who voted for its repeal would l)e likely to vuie for altsolute [iroliibition .' r know a gi'eat many of them would do so. ■'19S19. I ask this (|uestion, because it has been stated repeafi'div that the Scott .\el people vote against restriction of the lic|Uor trallic .' Not at all in Ontario. ;{98l'0. As a practising physician, have you observed whether total abstinence is ciimpatible with the best health .' Sir .Matthew to the contraiy. I hold that it is compa- tible with the most perfect health, intellectually, morally and ]ihysie:dly. •'{9821. That suggests a (|Uestion .is to the su|periority and inferiority of races, ibive you any opinion that woidd be.ir on that point .' I o doctors her(> gi\c certificates of death? Yes. 39832. Do you find any proportion of the cases directly or indirectly atti-ibutablr to the drink habit a'ul the drink tr'iHc? — My nractice is not among those who tipple to any extent, but I ha 'e had two cases at which I had to assist at j)ost-mortems, whidi were attributalile to drink. .398.33. Are you a t'oroner ?- I am not. .398.34. Do you sonu'times have to make f)ost-mortems? — Yes. 3983-"). Do you find in cases of untimely de;iths that there is a percentage of them due to the drink iiabit and trallic / — I will answer that <|uestion in this way : deatli w;is attributable to the condition which every scientific physician knows is due te al<^i(il. This man to whom T referred was an inveterate ih'unkard , therefore, 1 drew flu coii- chision that death was due to alcohol. .3983(1. Wiiy do insurance compaTiies ask that ([uestion which you have given? One of the chief reasons is that the u.se of alcohol, especially by wtunen, possesse.*-' an element of tlanger. .398.37. Are tiiere any companies that do not impose such restrictions? — One C'dii- pany I wrote to on the sul)ject said; "a total abstairu-r is e.".j)able of taking care of '.liiii- self wherever he goes." This com]iiuiy oilers no restrictions. 398.'>S, You think that company regards total al)stinence as being more safe ? - Yes. .398.39. .\s a |iliysician coming into contact with parents and childreii, have yen reason to l)eiie\e that intemperance has been the cause of any propoiti">! of sickness anil diseas"' which you have met .' -Yes, 1 lliiidc so. .i9S4U. What percentage would you say ?- I cannot say, on I'ci'ount of my practice not iieing among tiiat class ; the percentage would, however, be : , .3 or 4 j)erhaps. /ly Jiidiff: MrD'))ififd : .39S41. How long hav(> you practis(>d nu'dicine .' Thre(> years. • 39842. You have been two yt^ars here, I believe .' Yes. 39843, You .said you wrote to sonu^ insui'ance company. Was it in regard to .some incpiii'v -""h as this being made? No; it wasa diflerent matter. .39S4 t. Are you prepared to say that there are insurance companies that ha\'e |o\mi rates for total abstainers ? -No. 3981.5. You have .said that the license law here is violated? Principally in house- of ill-fame. .3984(1. Those people are not licensed? — That is where the violation takes \^\•M•^\ Kahnk.st II.XLl.. 608 *t " 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 39H47. Have there been cases of violation by licensees? — Not to my knowledj^e. .■U)84H. You say illicit sale takes places in houses of ill-faine? Yes. .■{!)84!). How many such places are therein this city ? -lietween -SO and tO, T should think. ."iOiSoO. We find by the return for 1S91 that there was 818,000 paid for licenses into the city re\enue and used for the benefit of the nmnicipality, in case you obtained total prohibition, would you be prepared to raise by other taxation the money now raised by license '.'- -Jlost certainly. Not so much money would reipiire to be raised. .■?98">1. Would you be satisfied to have a jiroliibitory law enacted under wliii-h, in order to be successful, you must <;ive the police the powj^r of personal and domiciliary search, and allow them search trav(!llers cominj; into the country or leaving' it ?---Yes, with the provision that all persons w''l limited tickets should be allowed to pass. That is th(* only provision 1 would wa; . . ..^erted. ? — 1 \\oul(l allow them i(|Uor to l5'J8r)2. Would you expect the travullers to bring in bring in a limited (|uaiitity. .3!)8r);?. What (|uantity would you allow them ? — Half a pint at the outside. 3!)8.")4. You would have search made to see if the (|uantity was exceeded ? Yes. .■}'.)8r).'). And if it was exceed.'d, you would take it fiway from them .' (,'(>rtainlv. in fi 1 d. ."{yHoO. Do you know any country where such a prohibitory law not know that I can recollect any such country. .■}i)8r)7. The C(jmmissioners liave been told that there is such a state of afl'airs existing in the Fiji Islands. Have you any knowledge f)f the law there ? -No, 1 know notliing about it. 39808. You would b<^ prepared to tiy the law which you have spoken about, and see if it could succeijd ! — Yes. By Rev. Dr. McLeod: 39859. Speaking of houses of ill-fame, is it your belief that there is sale of them 1 — Yes ; they could scarcely be run without whisky being sold in them. i([uor m .JOSHUA DAVTES, auctioneer and connuission merchant, or being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Jiuhje AlrDoiiald : 39800. How long have you resided in Victoria ? — -1 have resided here since i860, more than 30 years. 398(51. Before that, where did you reside'.' — In California. 39801!. What system of dealing with the li(|Uor traclc \vas in force in California when you lived there'!-- A license law. 39803. Have you ever lived in any jirohibition country ? No. .39804. I suppf>se the license law sinc:e you came here has been amended fro'- time to time in regard to its [)rovisions ?~ F do not think it has been amended very much. 39805. Do you think it works satisfactorily / — I do not think it works harmoniously. 39800. Have you found it to work satisfactorily ? -Fairly satisfactoiily. 39807. Do you think the licensees try to live up to the jn'ovisions of the license law ? — T think so. 39808. Have you rea.soii to believe that unlicen.sed sale exists to any extent in this city 1—1 do not think so. 39809. Taking the community as a whole, how do you find the jieople, are they law- abiding or the contrary '! — 1 think they will compare favourably with jieople in other communities. 39870. Do you know anything of the use of light wines and ales here, as distinct fr(Mn the use of ordinary spirits? — I cannot see m'vv much difi'erence. I think the people 509 V) li 'I i Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. are usinj^ more wines and be^r tlian they have been in the hubit of doinf,'. Tiiis is on account of tlie clieapncss of California wines and fi'oni tiic new breweries recently opened. .'51IS71. Do you tliiidv it would l)e adviintay;eous if the use of those liijuors was increased and the pcojile canu! to use them regularly instead of ardent spirits? — Tdonol know, it is not so much the use of liipioi', but tiie taste and habit that ar(^ harmful. 39H72. Are there any amendments to the present license law that you could sujiicest, either as rej^ards the mode of issuin<; licenses, or the number of licenses, or the amount of the license fee or any thinj; of that kind ,' — T have always thouj^ht that the sale nf liquor should be open to all. i ;>!)H7;i. Do you me.ut open to all without limitation ? — Yes ; but the fee sliould b(> very hi.uh, probal)ly two or three times as hijLjh as now. .'59874. Then in youi- ojjinion it would be desiral)le to allow any man to have a license, but you would make the fee hifjh as a protection? Yes, and also see as to ihr quality of the li(iuor sold. .■?9S7-'). I think that is one of the matters that the Govermnent are now attending to; Thev demand that liquor shall be two years in warehouse for purposes of rectitica- tion '( — Yes ; tliat rule should l)e extended to all imported liquors. I think li(|uor coni- \n cars and steam boats the l)est food and drink. I'^rom my e.\perieiict>s as regards travel through I'liti^li Columbia, 1 think that \ cry little li(|i;or is used by tourist." H. :iver, if thev eon! I hit -t it. I suppose they wou lid want it. .S988."), Incase of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, a law to ]irohiliii the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liepiors for beverage purposes, iln you think that brewers and distillers should be I'emuiieiated for their lo.ss of plant and niachiiery ?- I think they should be paid every cent of what they have invested anil the vaiue of the licpior they may have in stock. Joshua Davies. 610 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 Hllicnt :'t Thni. wciiiM t liiu' ill UIkIi'I' duly nil .t' till' ii(> I'iuht (•(■cell ill it' till' 111(1 ymii' !■! in til'' ihc lialiii ritivery one knc^w tiiat they could get wiiat they asked for, it would b(^ veiy much hettei'. The licensees should he pledged to keep li(|Uor of a ctM'tain (juality, and if they kejit it of an inferior (piality, the houses should he closed. ."iitl^'JO. Are thei-e any liquors of a hetter elass that would not make a man drunk l — I think you can get drunk on almost anything. You can get drunk on licpioi' made with sugar and sea-weed. They make li(|iior out of sea-weed and out of sugar ; the liquor made out of sea-weed is known as ( )chnoo. it is manufactured hy the Indians near the Alaska territory, if not in Alaska itself. 'I'liey distil it from kelp, which is a kind of .sea-weed. The kelp furnishes the whole thing. It is the same as pure alcohol, and it is the very worst li<|Uor. .•')ftS'.)l.' [t is practically alcohol? -Yes. .')!iS!tL'. Will it intoxicate a man? -It simply makes you crazy, and a very little of it wnl ilo so. .S!)S'.i;$. Would that he cheaper t liaii ordinary liquor ?- -If you wanted to kill vour- .self, I su]iiios(! it would he. .'iDSitt. Does it actually kill, or sinijily make a man cra/y ? It make-, a man wild. .'i'.I.^Oo. Are the liquors which are said to bi' pure, less intoxicating .' .\ny li(|Uor will intoxicate. ;UJaking of the City of Victoria. .">!IS',)7. 1 supjiose .second and third rate places that sell poor liquor do so because there is profit in it ? — Oertainly, and that class of people take largei' quantities. .'t!»89S, l)oyou think that if they sold better li(|Uors, the j)eo]i|< would take less? -They would reduce the (piaiitity sold. If you want the \t'ry best brandy they will give you a small glass that is called a "pony." They gi\-e you a smaller ghis^, and you hiive the j)ri\ilege of lilling it again. In the \ery best saloons they will charge '!■) cents per glass for that kind of liquor; but that is not what I am talking about. What I want to distinguish is this ; They lia\e licpiors that an; practically new lic|iioix, ilnit is the li(|Uors contain practically the fu.^el-oi I, That is the worst kind of liqiioi any one can use. .'i'.iS'Ji). Is it not what men desire liecaiise it "scratches" and produces ellects (|uickly f Possibly, because the man has not been accustomed to anything lieller. .■J'.mOtJ. Would it h(> cla.ss h^ifislation to take that kind of liipior away from a iiian? -I think the (iovernment should |irovide that liquor should be sold of a certain (|uality. They now |iro\i(k' that whi-^ky and li(piors of that sort shall be kept in bond iwoyears tiii rectification purposes. The < !o\ci'iiment should provide tli.it liipiors that are im- |iorted should l)e treated in the same way, and that they should lie of a certain strength and quality. •'i'.l'.IUl. .\re you now referring tr to he sold, and also a poorer cltiss of ](ersons to be engaj^ed in the trade. If a more stringent law were passed and a high license had to be paid, and a certain ijuality of liijuor sold, the licensees would b(! more careful to comply with the law. ;{9i)0o. Have you observed yourself whetiior tlie li(|Uor trade is harmful ? — It is, in some instances. .'{KUOti. In many instances? — Often you see a man drinking heavily, which is bad for his business, but you also find a great many people who do not drink to excess. These persons may take more li(|Uor than others. .S'j'.)07. You do not believe in prohibition because it is an interference with per sonal liberty, I suppose? — I think so. 1 do not believe in any kind of prohiliiti^ 's. I do not believe any ])ei'son has a right to say to me, 1 should not do so and so, simply because he believes it is not good for himself. Ife may be right, but it is not proper that any prohibition of that kinil should be passed. .■M)i)08. Do you think the law has a right todeal with inebriates? — leertainly think so. .'$1)909. Why ?— Because the inebriate might be a danger to himself atid to the com nmnity. 159910. Suj)pose they are harndess and do not create any di.sordcr, do you consider the people have a I'ight to deal with him ? — They might not deal with him directly, bui if it was a case in which a man had become crazy from li(iuor, the law should deal with the person who sold liijuor to him under the circumstances. That would come under the liquor license law. .'59911. You do not think it would be i'ight to deal with a man by convicting him ? —If he is a danger to himself and the connnunity, 1 say yes. 39912. You do not regartl the licjuor traffic as a danger to the community, I sup- pose ? — Not necessarily. .'5991.'5. Did I understand you to say that men always want to do what is forbidden? — A great many of them do. .'59914. Do yfm think it would be well not to forbid men to break laws, and thus let every man be a law to himself? — There are always certain restrictions in i\ city, there must be some kind of laws ; but as regards [jrohibition, that is going to the e.xtreme. .'59915. You said that you did not believe in prohibiticm in anything? — Yes. .'59916. Do j'ou think that is applicable to the decalogue, and furnishes the reason why men violate it ?--I am afraid there is a good deal of that. .'59917. Do you think it was a mistake to issue the decalogue?— I do not know. By Judge McDonald : .'59918. Do I understand that you would not favour prohibition as regards stealing ? — 1 mean prohibition of anything wrong in law. .'59919. Anj'thing wrong in jjrinciple? — I swore here with my hat on becau.se 1 am a .Jew. If you had said you cannot take I'ln oath in that way, I would hav(? replied that you were interfering with my personal rights. .'59920. Your answer that you are opposed to prohibition in anything, means iiiiy thing that is not harmful in itself, I suppose? — Certainly. Joshua Davies. 512 VT^-iH Trrm 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 t'jiliiii: ALKXAX|)Kll WILSON, (if V'icturin, nicrcliaiit, on lieing duly ^woni, (lf|)(ised tt.s t'olldwa ; — liji Jitilijc Mflhttiiilil : 'M)\)'l\. Ilow loiiy liiuc ynii resided in liiitisli ('ohiinhiii /--'I'liirt y-tliree. vt^irs piist. '.VMxl2. Did ynii eome liere tVuiii one ut' the ullier jiroviiiees ,'--- Ves, tVnm tlie l^fo- vince (it' Quebec. :5!t!tL'.'{. What part? I am a native nt' the City "f Quebec. 39'.)l'4. r suppose till) lieenso law was in t'oi'ee in that pi'oviiice wlien you left th(^i'(! ? Yos. .■$!M.li.'.'"). |)id you tind a license law in force when you came here? Yes. •■!!(!»■_'•). Ha\i' you lived anywiiere else than in X'ictoria.' No. I helicx-c the licens(( fee was SdOO when V caine here, now it is .Sl'OU. ■VM.yi't . So you have watched the opeiation of the license law here, as a citizen / — T think I ha\e. •'iili)28. I >o you know whether the licensees observe tlur provisions of the license law ? — I beliexc they make all the drunkaids lli(> law allows them to make. •'}l)H2i>. J a.sked you wlu^ther you had noticed whether the licensees observe the law or not, 1 refer to sale on Sunday and .after hours? Up to within the last year the saloons wore oj)en seven days in the week and •_' I hours in tlu- clay. Since the l)e;,'ininni^ of the y(>ar saloons have been opiMi all week and closed at. 1 1 o'clock Saturday nii,'lit;intl open aj^'ain at 4 o'clock jMonday moridiii,'. .'iil9.'<(). I low is the law r,bs(M'\<'(l .' I do not think it is observed. .■5!)!).'ll. l)oyou know any <»stablishinent ii> which it is not obserM'd .' i ha\c sec^i drunken men on the streets on Sunday. .'{itO.'il.'. Have you called tlu? attention of the authorities to th.it fact ? No. .'i!)t).'<."). ! think you said the licensees niakeall the druidvards t he law permits. What do you mean by that expiession .' As many as they can accommodate in the s.aloons. •■!!)i).'M. I t.ake it you are opposed to the license law ? I am an out-and-out jiro- hibitionist. .'590.'?."). Then you think it is w rom;' to license the trade? -Yes. .'!!•!).■!(■). .\nd you consider it to be a sin / - I do. ;l!)i)."57. In case of the eiuictment of a i;ener;d prohibitory l.iw.a law to prohibit the inanuf.icture, importation and sali> of intoxicating licpiors for beverau;(! purposes, would you think it right that brewiM's and distillers shouh.l receive compensation fur their loss of plant and machinery ? -No. T think the (Jovernment should jiay the widows and oi'j)hans the liipior trade has produced. .\n applicant receives his license for 1 '_' months only, and he h.is to i-eiu^w it at the end of lh.it time. ."^DiKiS. Do you know of a.iy case within yf)ur experiiuice in whi(;li a (.'ourt granting licenses refused the apiilii.'ation of a man who had lived up to the reipiirements of the law? In this province? .•?ll<);{!). Yes? -I cannot say that I have. ■■?iti)-W. Do you not know that uniler the re(|uirements of the (lovernmenl and de- partmental regulations men are reipiired to lia\'e ceilain m;ichinery for the pur]io.se nf manufacturing beer and spirits? — 'S'es. .■59O-H. l)o you know that tiie spirituous li(jiior has to be kejit two years in stock for the purposes of rectification, and that no remuneration is made them on that account? Yes. .■}'.)!ll"2. r)o you think a pnihibitory law should be [lassed, to come into force as >oon as possible? — Yes. ;?9!)43. In ease such a law were passed, do you think it could be enforced liere, )a-o- vided tilt; (lOvernmont were in .sympathy with and itledged for prohibition? — If they lielieved in the law, it shoidd be enforced. .■?i)!)| t. Ila\'e you heard what has been said in regard to searching houses and per- sons : w'oulfl you think tliat right under a prohibitory law ? - -We would iiave to submit to it. 513 I'l- ;$3** Li(iii<)r Traffic — British Columbia. I I : 'i f^ 'I HOKt"). ho yoii tliink it would l»f right? — Yes. Of course sudi n reguliitioii is iiul j)leHsiint, hut r would give it. .'5!MM(>. ^^'ouid you make a limitation hy allowing half a pint of liijuor to travellers going through the country on a through ticket '. If 1 am a helieNcr in prohiiiition and the (Jovei'nment of the countiy btilieve in it, thei'e is no occasion for allowing travellers to carry liipior. Th(!re are, of course, mt^dicines used in camp and they would not have li(|Uor ; if li(}Uor is to !>»; given in one case, it should be given in others. .'5!)947. >So you would makt! the measure a very rigid one? — Yes. .SimiH. And you would cany it all through? — Yes. :ilt!)41t. You think that with the otlicials ojuMiiy in favour of sui^h a law, it would be a success .' — With the Government of the country sound on the question, there is no fviu- i>iit that the evil will be stamj)e(l out and the otlicials will be su.stained. .'5 i)r)0. Have you made a study of tlu* (|uestion? I. have read about it. ."{'.t!)")!. |)o you know any country in the world where such a law is in force .' — [ do not know of any ; there is the Stat(! of Main(^ .■{D!)r)2. Theiu' is this state of all'airs in Maine : We have the swoi'u evidence before the Commission that while the people ai'e not allowed to sell or have- li(|Uor for sale, they can liaM' all they want for themselv(\s, but they cannot go beyond that? — T know that some years ago it was a rare thing to stje a drunken man. ;U}!(r>;i. is that the kind of law you would favoui',' -Yes, if the people would have it. ;iy9r)4. Do you know of any country in the world where there is absolute prohibi- tion now ?— No; but 1 do not say that our country should not adopt such a law. The liquor traffic is a curse in every sense. Licjuor is no doubt good for nuMlicinal |)urposc.s and foi- manufactming purpo.ses ; but take the elFect on fandiies and individuals and eonnnuiHlies, and I think any candid man cannot fail to adndt that it is a curse. I think it is a mai'k of superioi'it.y on the part of ;i man to be a total abstainer. In this pi'oviiice I have seen clei'gymen, medical men ami lawy(>rs who were a disgrace to their respective professions, from the use of alcoholic driidi. I have seen thent in the c(jm- pany of Fudians. I respect an Indian as much as any other man as one of God's creatures. They are capable of being elevated. In this provinci; we have Indians wim have been led u|) step by step to high jH>sitions. If you educate the Indian, he becomes a man. Put whisky to his mouth, and ho falls back at once and becomes a low hidian. Put whisky to the while man, and you have a "mean white '' at once. 3i)!)")o. Have you ever seen among the Indians what would 1^; called moderate drinkers?--! do not think there is such a thing among the Indians. ;i!)llo(). Do you think there is such a thing among whites? — I do not think there is any such thing as moilerate driid on Indians?- — Yes. 39958. Have you spoken in regard to Indians. Would you make a law also in regard to whites, such as exists now in regard to sale to Indians .' — Yes. Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : .■i99r)9. Have you noticed any change of late years in regard to the driidcing habits of the jieople ? — I have. IVJ9GtJ. Is drinking done more or less in this ])rovince ? — In early days I think ii was considered to be a mark of good breeding to have li(|uor on the laljic. Wiirn I visited a house there would invariably be tlrinking. Now the habit has pretty ncaily died out. ;}99(U. You think there is less of social drinking? — \ do ; but there is more in saloons. ;{99G'2. Then you think there is more bar-room drinking ? — Yes, and also in liotfN. .■)99G."5. As between the two, saloon and hotel bars : which do you think is the mure dangerous? — The hotel bar is the more injurious. .■i99()4. To what do you attribute the change in the social customs in Victoria to which you have referred? — The churches have had a great deal to do with it, as al>'i have certain temperance societies, and in my opinion the Women's Christian Tempei'anee Union has had nK)re to do with it tluvii any other a,ssociation. When li([Uor is tai\'(M' the country '. It docs seem the same way. We fiiu I a man who is elected, .and who is an out-andout total prohi- bitionist, such as Mr. Foster, who is now Finance .Minister, afterwards shuns the ijuestion. Me asked where the revenue was to come from, aiui he wished to be shown how it was to be obtained, and a})peared to think that it was impossible to obtain •■^7,000,000 that would be retpiired. He does not think that |irohibition would empty our penitentiaries. There are between SO and 90 con\iits in S'ew Westminster. .■599St). Do you think they are thereon account of drink ! — As Paddy said once, 1 think three-thirds ar(> there on that account. .■599iSl. Have yo\i any Chine.se convicted ?- Y'es. .'59982. We are told that they are not addicted to the drinking of liijuor. Did intemperance t.ake them there 1 — No. ;599S:!. Who are the three-thirds ] — There area certain number of Chinese. ,'59984. Y'ou think that if the (juestion was put as an abstract proposition, the licople would vote at the polls in favour of total prohibition of the tratKc ! -I do. 3998."). But when the question comes down to practical politics, you think it is thrown aside 1 -Yes. .'5998(1. Has that been your experience in that connection '! — Y''es. 159987. I understood you to say that the trattic has become disreputable in this province? — All well thinking men think it disreputable. 515 21— 33i** |i!i M: \V h l! .a 'ii» i i J m Lu^uor Tnirtic — Hritisli Columbia. li'.MIHH, \Vf liH\c lii'iu'il tii-day tliiit this is a very orderly uiui law -al»i, liovv in it tlicn- is any (iitru'ulty iri ;ii'tliiij,' tlie liC;;'islatur)' In take tlif saiiif view : why will nut ri;;ht think- iii<{ iiit'ii act at till' elect iiMis .' ()t' cour.se the |ie(i|i|e iiii;{lit [iiit ri>;lit thiiikiii<4 men iti the l- reputahle, for he is dealing,' in an article that has liecn the cause of murderiii<| a friend of mine. .'V.l'.l'.l.'i, Will I he riLfhi-thinkinu men of whum vuu have simken vote for the man whom vou think s ilisre|iiit,ihle I iim sorry tu sav they ill .'ili'Jitti. (,'an you iii'count for iliat.' -Nt), it is (jno of the incuiisisteiicie.s uf human nature. % Rw. Dr. MrUod '■WMM . I low many years have yuu lieen in husiness? — T think .iliiiut 28 years. .'ii^il'.tS. .\s a business man, ha \e yuu n iiticed the elVect uf the lii|uur trallic un other liraiiches uf trade .' TIk; linuur I raiKe has this elVect, if a merchant is a drunkard h i-hildren yu hootless and vei'v often hunjiry. .'i'.ID'.t'.l. I )o you think that in that way the liijuor tratlii' has , an injurious (iffoct ! 1 (1. GUKGOHY CLKMENT SAL'KR, of Victoria, on being duly sworn, deposed as foUow.s : — Hi/ Jiultjf Mrlhmahl : 40000. A\'hat is your business or occupation? — I have the Banker'.s ExchaiiL"' .saloon. (OOOl. |)iiyou hold any ollicial iiusitiun in cunnectiun with the Licensed ^'ic1 nai- lers' Association ? -1 do, I am President of the Association. 40002. How lonjj; have you lived in British Columbia? — About 10 years. 4000.S. Did you come here from one fif the othei' provinces ?- -No, I came here from California. 40004. Since yuu canui to Ihitish Cohunbia, have yuu resided in Victoria all th.it tiuu> ^ I suld li(|U()r in Vancouver before it was known by that name, 40005. How long did you reside there? — A little over a year. 4000t). You were in the liquor trade in Vancouver? — Y'es. 40007. Have yuu now a licen.se from the Licensing Board? — Yes. 40008. Are yuu oi\e of those who come under the provisions of the ohi law, that i>. the license is continued fi'om year to year by youi' simply paying tiie fee iixtm year Im year ? — Yes, AM;.\A\i)i:ii Wilson. 51G 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ■U)UU!(. T;ik(t till' lii'ciisi' law IIS vuu liiivc iiliscrNfil its ii|M>i'iitiiiii in \'aiu'iu\i'i' ; tin you i)eli()vn tliiil the pcisotis wIid wcif liwnscil lived ii|i tu the ii'iinireiiKftits nf tin- \nw 1 — I think so. lii()|(). IliiVf ymi i'\<'i' lived in any |pri>ldl)ilii)n emiiitry .' — When I was a Ijny, I lived in fi counti'y wliei'e it was int'nrce. lUtJl I. Where was that ,' -In Hwit/erland. 40012. Doyiiu rei'iiliet't anything' nt" the workinj,' of that law tlieii t Nn. 40{)1.'J. Do you reiMilleet anythini; ot' the j)art of Switzerland wluTe it was in foree ? — It was in force in some distriels, 40014. In which of the eantons ,' Zuiieh was one of them. 4001"). Are there any ainendineats ti> tin; present lieense law yon I'oidd sii^^'csi that would he advantageous. Foi' instance, it inia liecu suj,'^ested that it would he de- sirahle to make the lieense fee hiijher .' T would not o|)|)ose it, hut ;it the same time ! do not thiidv it would maki' any dill'erenee to the lii|nor Irallie. tUOlO. Then it has I n su^'^esled that there should he an ins|peetion of liijuois, .so as to prevent the use of adulterated and impure lii(Uors. It has heen suj,';,'ested that as there has heen a law re(iuirin;t Canadian li(|UorH to fcmain iji liond for- reetiliea- tion purposes, foreii,'!! licjuors should he recpiired to he of a certain a;,'e'.' (\'rtainly. 1 think it would he a i^reat henelit to the people if the licpior was insjieeted and aseert.iined t<) he of the .same dei;r'ee of strenj;th as it should lie, •10017. Ha\(' vou had any experience in re;;.ii(l to the use of li^ht wines and ales '.' -Yes. 4001H. Is a taste for them iiro win;; anion;,' the people ? Yes, there are more li;,'hi wines and ales drank now than there were fornii'ily, in fact the sale is inereasirii; all the time. 4001!). Is la;,'er Ijeer used here much ?— it is. 10020. l)o you consider this to he a soiier and law-ahidini; connniinity .' \'ery much so. 10021. How does it eompai-e in that resjiet't with other places in which you have lived in California and elsewhere/ You will find drunken men anywheie, hut this is as soher a community as I ha\e seen anywhere. 10022. As you are in thetratli<' it is hardly to he c.\pected that you are in favour of prohihiticjn ? Certainly not. 4002M. Puttin-j; aside the (|ue.sti()n as to whether you are favnurahle oi' not, do you tliink it would he practicahle to enforce such a law? I hardly thiidc so. f do not think the people want it. 40024. In case of the enactment of a general prohihitoi'V law, to proliiliit the n;anu- facture, importation and .sale of intoxicatin;; lic|U(U's for heverame purposes, would you deem it rit;ht aiul just that hrewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of (ilant and machinery !- -1 certainly thiids .so. 1002"). It ha.s heen suggested tlwit it woulirhe hetter to sejiarate the sale of liiiuor from hilliaril anil pool-i'ooms. What do you say as to that point / I do not see that any benefit would result from that. 4002ri. Have you a liilliard-i'oom ? — I have had a billiard-room. 40027. Have you one now .' No, I ga\e it u|). 40028. You would have people who would play billiards and not drink .' It cawsed Ciiusiderabic trouble, so I ij;a\e it up. 40029. How did it cause trouble? -Becau.se you had to attend to it. Ji;/ Rev. Dr. MrLeod : 40030. Which jiays better, the billiards or the bai- ? The billiards pay \ery well when you run them ]>roperly, in fact they pay better than li(|Uor. 400.'U. How long have you been engaged in the liquor business .' .\bout nine year.s. 40032. What is the object of the association of which you are President .' We have to pay a certain sum of money for permission to hkW liipior, and we an- entitled to certain protection from the Oovernment, and in order to get that protection we ha\e formed an association. 517 m m '■■ tiri Liiiiior Traffic — R/itish Coliuubia. 400."i.'5. What piotectioii do you expect tVoiti tlic Government ?- AN'o liold liefiiscs. and consciiucntly are allowed to sell liquor. 400.'54. ^\'llat jir(jtection do you expect from t!ie (Jovernnient that you obtain liv having an association ?- That we v ill not he intVinged upon in anj- kind of way For instance, they passed the .Sunday law about six months ago. 400.'ii"). Was the association opposed to th'.t law ? -Certainly. lOO.SG. You did not want the Hunday lav?— No. When we got our licenses, we liad a right to s(;ll on Sunday. 100157. I think you said that men under license obsei've the law : do they sell mi •Sunilay ? — Not that I know of. tOO.'iS. Does the association chide its members who violate the lasv ? — Certaiidy. . 400.3!t. ^\'i\at do they do ? —We will not allow them to be In the association. 40040. iJave you had before your asscjciation any cases of violation? — To a certain extent. When wc think we are infringed upon too much, we make a point to have it attended to. 40041. Infringed in v hat way ? — In regar. Ha\e there be>n no eases brought against any one in the association ' — There were two eases, but no j)roGf wa.s found against the parties. 40044. You think lu.body has been convicted of selling liipinr between Saturday night and Sunday ?- No. 40015. Sujipose one was convictiul. would the a socialion take n.xice and tell tlie licensee not to do it again ? -Certainly, if he had \ iolated the law. 1004G. Y'^ou ))e!ie\-e in the license system ? — Of course. 40047. Why do vmu b(>lie\ e in license ? -]f there was r.o lie 'n. i law •' ■ y om'' v (p.:ld sell liipior. M)OIS. I )o you nut tliiiik it wiadd be a better system ; -No. I do not. 4004!). Wli' do not gi-ocei's require to hav(> licenses ? — Tiu^y h; t» {■> iiiive a licen-^e. 400-50. Caiuiot a man sell groceries without liaving ii lieensi' ? -They niust pay a icrtain license, and in this way contribute a certain amount to the icvenue of the <'iiy and country. I()0r)l. Then doe. e\'ery shop-keeper pay ;i license ?—Cei-taiii|y. 41>05l'. But the li(|Uor de.aler does not r"(|nire the same kind ? lie j)ays a licence fee, which is about the same thing. 400.")3. Do_you thinic the grocery and l;q\ioi- men are on the same basis ?— Yes, ts licen-;ing limit the amount of virinking.' 1 do not think tlial license has anything to do with the drinking. llJOo"), ))(> men vli'ink as much wit!; license as witluuit it ? - Yes, 100-")C) In case of t!ie enactment (|f a general prohibitory law. do you think men would go out of the trade;- 1 snp])os(> they would ha\'e to do the same as anybody il.se ; they could not starve. 10().')7. They woidd go out of il:.' tivule, I nppose ' i do nul think t'.'ey would remain and be lined or inquisoned. 4(J0r)S, "Would they be making themselvt'. liai)le if the law were enforced i — The law woulfl be enfoiced. but 1 do not think you could drive the liquor outof tlie country. 400r)il. S])eaking of conqn^nsation. you think that brewers and distillers should be compensated. I )o you think that the men who hold licenses should be conqx-nsated .' - if the (lovernment allowed me to take out a year's license an comjiensated. 4O0G0. But if the Goverinnent allowed you to run out your ye:ir, wliat would you say? — I would have no claim. 400(V1. But you thiidc the brewers and distillers ha\e claims ,' Yes, becaiise th>-y have a cei-tain amount of capital invested on which they could not reali/.e. Hjl Jiiih/iMilJi iidhl : 4itO()l.'. In what part f)f Califoi-nia diil you li\ef--ln San l-'rancisco. C.Hi:(;oIiV Cl.KMKNT S.\UKH, 57 Victoria. Sessioix...! Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 I00fi;3. I suppose yo'. were nut in any l>iiit of (Jalit'ornia wlusic pidliihitioti was in force? — I foriuorly ttMvelled in California, Imt tlieie was no i)n>liil)ition anvwi\t'i-o I visiied. 400Gi. Tliere was no prohibition anywhi'io in your day, T sujipose f No. -^.. m.' THOMAS HOViJlTON, of N'icturia. di'y goods nuM'cluint, on Ikmui; dulv sworri, deposed as follows : — yy*/ Judge McDonald : 400G5. How long have you re>ided in Victoria ? I have I'esided in X'icturia in the neighbourhood of IG years. 4006G. Did you come here from one of the othi'i- pros ;ii('(>s .' — No, T canic^ liei'o fi'oni Massat'husetts, but 1 originally came fi'oin Kngland. 400()7. How long is it since ynu cauK^ fruni .\rassachu.setts? About •').', ycats. tOOGs. What system was in force there / -The license .system. tOO()'.>. In Knglan.l I suppose there was also a license system in force? — Yes. 10070. Did you find a license law in the province when you came here? Yes. 10071. Ifave you obse ved the working of the law here? — Casually. 4007:.'. I)oyou know whctlu.-r the provisions of the license law are carried out here? — 1 (.'ould not state from my own personal knowledge whether they are carried out or not. r have heard peo])le say that they are not carried out as much a:- they shoidd be and that there is gambling going on, which is contrary to law. 4007.'i. HaNcyoii any person.d knowledge a-s to gambling f No. I have ne\erbeen in gambling places in my life. 40074. Is there any illii-it sale of liipior going on here? — 1 do not know. 4007.'">. Have you considered the ipiestion of proiiibition? 1 ha\c read a. good deal about it. 4007G. Ai'(> you favourable to it? — Yes, I thiid< it would be a good thing. 400~7. Are you opposed to the licensing of the lii|utu' tratH<' .' —I am opposed to it, because it is detrinu'iilal to tin interests of the community uid the walfare o^' indi- viduals. 40078. Do you think the license system is wrong in principle .' ^'es. I lielieve it is wrong in pi-inciple, as so much evil re. alts frou! it. 4007!'. Do you think it is v, rung i > drink liquor for beverage purposes? — I could not say it is wrong to drink liquor, although great e\ils result from th" use of it. 40')!S0. iSo you think it 'ould Ije well not to license the sale of it ? Yes. 40081. You would rathe;' ha\.j prohibition, I suppose ; but failing prohibition, you would rather have licensi> than untrammelled sale?--Yes. 40082. Do you think a gcMcrally prohibitory law could be |)ract ically ent'oiccd in I'ritish Columbia'; Of course that could only be ascertained by test 1008.'!. You want prohibition that will go to the inot of the matter.' ^'es, and i do not want a law that cannot be enforced. 400S4. You would not want a law that would prevent men drinking if the liipior w'as kept for their own use? — [ do not oliject to such a law, but I do object to the sale of liquor. 4008,"). You want to do away with sale and bartei- ' ^'cs. 4008G. But would that not be an infringement of the personal liberty of the subject ? -Not if a man used it in this way, so that it would not pro'-e a temptation to others. 4O0c'^7. You would require a irian to get the biploi' some where else than in the lomnninity where he li\fil,an'. you would not allow him to l)uy it here .' -No ; he could bring it in from elsewhere: lie would have to bring it in from the J'nited Slates. 4008S, Or sonic other coi.ntrv than Canaila ? -Yes. 519 m Hv; \m Liquor Trattic — British rolnnibia. 40US1). In ffise of t lie passage xt' a jr uei'al prohibitory law, you would not fa\oui' proliiljiting importation ? — No. ttlU'JU. Ill case of tlie enactnit-nt >f a general i)roliibition law, a law prohibiting the manufacture, importation and sale, f'o you think it right that bi-ewers and distili>'rs should be cDnipcnsatcd for loss of p'.ant and machinery'/- As regards niachinei'v, I dn )iol know : that is a (|uestiou I li,i' c not studied. lUODl. Yon understand that i)y statutory law and l)y ilepai'tmental regulations those manufacturers have been r(!(juired to intrt>duce certain machinery, and from time to time it has been changed, and they are compelled to conform to tliose regulations. The manufacturers have also been rtMjuiii'd to keep in stock two years their ii(|ui>r inr rectific.itiiiii purposes. In case oi the j)assing of a law that would jirohibit their business altogether as regards nianufaciure and sale, would you thiidc it right t(i ninunerate theiri for loss of machinery and plant .'---For machinery and plant. 1 certaini}- would say tlie\ should not hi; compensated. As regards the li([uor in stock, 1 think tliey should be paid for that. 40U1V;. Would you think it better to gixc them sutlieieiit time to disjio.se ut' tlieir machinery, plant and stock .'--I would ])ay them foi it. 400ii.'i. And you woulil put the law in force immediatil; .' -Yes. Ji>/ Bei: Dr. Mcleod ■ 40091. As a business man, ha\e ynu noticed tluM'ffect the li(|uor trade has on ollu'r branches of business in die community, such for instance as the diy-good;; ? As regards my own business,, 1 can speak more positively than in regard to other branches. I know those who are the most temperate people, heads of families who do not J rink, buy more and \r,iy better. The more solier a community is, the bottv ■ it is for a business like mine. lOOi,'-"). Do you consider that the li(|Uor trade as a rule interferes wit li oilier branches of jjusiness ? — Y'^es. /iy Judge MrD(»>alf/ : 4009G. I suppose there are other matters too, although people deal more in ymn' line of business I suppose ! — Yes. 4001)7. Are there other means of I'ecreation on wliicli men iiiiglit spend theii' money than on liquor? — Yes. Those who take recreation I think, howe\t>i-, arc tiie ones who drink mostly. 4001)8. Do you know any persons who use intoxicating beverages and use them in moderation? — Tliat is men who do not get drunk : T believe lots of jieople in N'ictoriii do so. 400'jy. 1 suppose you have tnistomers who do that ' I liaxc all kinds of customers. The Conimis.sion adjourned. I . i. TiiOJiAis Houghton. 520 57 Victoria. Sessional Pai^ers (No. 21.) A. 1894 VICKJHIA. >'oviMnl«T 1.;, |SUv>. I'iie Coiiuiiissioii met tin's dav al l<» a.iii I'l-'Srlll : .liiii.i: -McDkwi.i). liiA. I>i!. >r(Li:i)D. ROBKIJ'T W'Alih, (if \'ict(iiia, iniiiliant, uii lifiiii;- duly swdiii, dt[>usf(l as fnllows ; Hi/ .IiiiIiji' McLonalil : 40100. Wh.st is vuiir husiiius.s (ir Dfeuiiatimi ,' — 1 am a inerc-liaiit, and lam aJusiiie of tlie Peace for tln' I'luvince of Hi-itisli Columliia. tOlOl. Has a .lustifc of tiic Peace for tlu' Province a laryef jui'lsrlicf ion tlian is ]) (ssessed hy an ordinary Mayist rate ? Yes, lie is a Justice of the I'eace for tlie entire |iro\ince. lOlUl'. And an urdinaiy .Ma,i;istrate is oidy fur tlie cinmty ni- district ? A .i,'real many "vi- snch. ■4'i|ii ' How loiii; have you resided in this |)ruvince '. -For 22 y<'ars. 4o;i'i Did you come here from one of the other i)rovinces ori!.dnally .' I lanie lure from ]'Iin,daiid. 4010."). What juiisdiciiiin have you.' Similai- tn an ordinary . I ustice nf the I'eace. and as Ju.stiee (if the I'eace, !ia\e occupied fur sduie years the position of a Licensing Commissioner. M)10(). In what section.' in N'ictoria. 40107. Then you are one of the Ijicensinu ]>oard h I aui not at the jiresent time. A lew months ;iy the Council for the Licensing; r.o.ird. 4010S. llaM'Vou travelled through the pro- 'no ? Yes. 40101). 1 suppose a license law has been in for-e in Hritisli Coluiniiia since you eanie here? Y'es. TIk' license law in ditVerent pirts Ins not lieeri enforced. The license laws in the cities luuc heen dill'eretit from tliose in the districts: that is to say, that the licensiiiii regulations for the City of N'ictoria are not the same as those foi' the district. 40110. Taking the li((iise law in the ditlerent districts, does it .iji'iciir to work satisfactorily.' With re.pect to the City of N'ictoria, the recent Act p.issed hy the Legislature works more ad\.intageoMsly to e\('ryliore (piaslied, simply because the Court abov(> considered that those men who obtained liipiur were homi Jii/<: travellers, I think the Act should be amendeil so as to clearly state what is a hatui Jhir traveller. In other respects the Act has worked salisfactiu'ily as a whole. W"\X\\ respect to the conduct of the saloon . in Victoria, 1 nmst say that at every n.eeting of the Connnissioners which [attended, 1 made a point of inipiiririg from t lie p ilice whether the saloons wcjc well conducted, and I do not recollect one instance in which prosecution has taken place for carrying on a disorderly house, e.xcept in the carse of the Standard Theai.e, which was a music hall in which drinking was carried on in a very loose sort of way. 40I"JI. Was it a licensed house? It was a house that obtained a license oi'iginally as a saloon, and subsiMpiently it was turned into a low class music hall, ami T am afraid worse than that. The Connnissioneis to(/c the matter up \ery strongly and eventually succeeded in getting the place closed. ! do not think there is any place to-day in N'ictoria of thi' same idiaracter. 401'22. Have you reason to belie\c that illicit sale prevails to any extent? -No, I have no reason tolielieve it. < )f I'ourse Filo not know whether you refer to selling liipior to Indians. 401l';5. No. 1 am speaking of selling li(|ur)r without li<'enses ?--No, I think not. I liavfr never heard of any convictions, and eertaiidy no case has been brought to my atten- tion. 40r_'4. In regard to selling liipior to Indians, what have you to say ,' T have had a good deal of experience in dealing with cases of that kind. In most cases where liinior has been given to Indians wv have found a tendency to supply them through the most proiHgate ; son»e were Half-breeds and sonu^ Chinese who su])])lied the liijuor. 1012"). Those then are not men who have licenses '? — They have no license and they are dealt with under the Tndian Act, the penalties under which you are aware are very severe. You have asked whether licensed houses have been very orderly condmted or not, and I may s.iy the instain'cs are very rare indeed lli;it I have never known of any case in which the holder of a licensi; has been proseciiteil for keeping a disorderly house. In districts where I have acted one or two isolated eases have come before me. lOrjd. Have you had any complaint made to you about l,he (]uality of the liipior founil in licensed houses, whether it was jidulterated or not? — No, T nevei- heard of any such case. Of cimrse in regard to the li(iuorMi]iplie(l to Indians, th(> li(|iior i^; impure, as it is generally secured from vendors who doctor it. HonKiiT Waud. 522 i I 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 tllfV Vl'IV • lint. LSI' 111 111 i(|Uiir ■ aiiv M> It 10127. Do vuu tliiiik tliat at tlic present time it is desiralile lliat fre([Ueiil and stiiii.-,ignment taken to the ajipraiser's oHice. In the case of claret oi'any other intoxicating liquor oiks sample is taktMi from each case, and on the wharf before the liquor is allowed to go into a bonded warehouse it is treated in that way. lOl.'il. The Commissioners have had evitlence, 1 think at .Montreal, that a quality of brandy, so called, is inqiorted tliat is staled by the wholesale dealers toeost!?l.M) a case of two do/en bottles and it wa.s suggested that when you take into consideration the original expense of the li([Uor, the bottles, capsules, labels, straw-wrapping, box, etc.. cost of fri'ight and duties, it must be ;i very inferioi' article. Subse(|iient e\idence shows that the liquor was made of the cheajiest kind of alcohol, manufactured in (lermany; fioin jiotatoes. Can yon inform the Commissioners whether sncll liiplor is brought in hei'e ? — Not from my own knowledge ; but if such cases occurred in this jirovince tlu'V could be treated and dealt with as for obtaining money under false pretenses. If a man sells me a case of brandy, it should be brandy. 401.'?:.'. lUit this transaction would oeeiir in ordinary trade, and of course it could be contended that you could not expect to get for si. 10 iwodo/.eii bo'^tles of real brandy .' — T should hardly look u]ion it in that way : it is cheating, it is obt.iining money under false pictiMises. 401. '5:5. These transactions are going on in the ordinary trade in th" i 'astern |iro\ inces 1 — In my opinion such eases should be dealt with very si.\erely. 4011! I. You do not, know of any such liquor being offered for sale here .' - I think you should obtain information from those experienced in the trade. 1 think the .saloon- keepers thri^ughout the country shoukl be I'.xamined on the points, becaust* these are matters which I cannot speak about from personal knowleilge. 401.3"). Ha\eyouhad any experience of a prohibitory law? -Xot directly. I re- member in Alaska., the territory to the north of this country, s iine years ago thi>rc was a large trade going on between liritish Columbia and .\laska, in fact there was a large trade with nearly all points on the Stiekeen J{i\erand I'uget Sound ii; the illicit whisky business. I have known cases where licpi.ir was smuggled in casks of butter, small kegs of whisky being inside. The butter was melted .ind jioiired around tie' small keg, and it would be concealed and ship])e(l as butter. 101. "it). Have you considered the (picstion of prohibition as a princi|ile .' — Yes, 1 ha\ e. 401.'f7. I •»' you think, •from >our experience and knowledge of the peopk; here and the knowledge you possess of IJritisli Columbia, that if such a l.iw were passed, it coulil be enforced in this jirox inee ? — I do not. l''roin what 1 lia\(' seen of the Northwest Teri'itories of Canada. ;ind 1 have passed through the Territories frequent ly, I am satis- lied that there was more sale or liipior and :i great deal more (li'iinkeiini's-, I ban if such .a law h.ul not been in force. 401.')8. In the event (»f the enactment of a general piohibitoi'y l.iw, do voii think there would be much smuggling? 1 think there would lie a V(>ry large amounl of smug- gling, in fact T lia\c lieen informeil, although it is scarcely e\i(lence, in the course of con- versations wit h inaiiy residentsof those Territories, th;it sinuguling was carried ontoa sery (umsiderable extent, and win .j inatler of coiimion occurrence. 40l.'}9. Are you troubled with illieil st;lls in this ))rovince ? — No. A few yearf^ igo there was a case in Saanieh district [ belie\e that was the onlv ea.se within mv 623 I: ! Liquor Traffic — Bi'itisli roluinl)ia. m recollection. 'I'liat ciiso was tiikcii to tlic .issizcs iiiid tlic case was a failure. altliouf,'li there was no moral (loul)t that there was a still there. 10140. Sii|i]iose a prohihitnry law were passed, to prohibit the mamit'acture. iniijortatioii ami sale of intoxicating' liijuors for lie\era;,'e j>urpo.ses, do you think it w(add be rij;ht and pro[)er that renumeration shonld be ;j;iven to brewers and distillers for their loss of plant and machinery .' T did not understand that if such a law were passed it would deal with brewers. 4U14I. It would pi-event brewersand distillers from manufacturiiifj;. The ijuesti(jn I asked yi)U was, whether they sluadd be remunei-ated for their loss of plant and machinery icndei'cd useless? Most decidedly. I think liberal remuneration should lie made. 40111'. .SupposiniT a natiunal system iif piciliibition was linniiflit into force, that is a law prohibitiii!.; thrnufi'hout the Dominion the manufacture, impoi'tation and sale (if licpior for heveraj^e ])urposes, a law that would prevent any une makin;;- liijuiii' m brinj,dnj;' it iri fur private use. the uidy exception beiny liipiur i'niuj,dit in for medicinal, sacramental and meclianicil jiurposes, do you think such a law cciuld iie enforced / -No. I think yiiu would lia\c brouj,dit about the most cumln'rsome ] iece of leijislation evei- enacted. i'\irtlier. I think if such a law were ]iassed, the i)ominion (hixcrnment would have to provide and maintain a licet nf revenue cutters ' lo- thi coast, which wnnid be a >,'reat e.xpen.se. 101 l.'5. What would be the effect as ivj^ards t ransconrinental iravel, if tourists and otJKM's had to subnut to ha\ iny their liaj/yaiic and c\'en their jicrsons searched ' I thiidc it would be a great disadv antage, and the law w ouid be \ iolated if such were the case. I am makin.'j; this statement from what I kno^v of the Xorth-west Territories. I have travelled with tourists, who comjilained years ago most bitterly of the interi'Uption to travel in th(-' North-west Territories, and some of them declared their decided intention not to travel that way jigain. I may state in |)assing, that I travelled though Calgary three years ago. I was in bed on tlu' cars, \vln'n I was rudely shaken up by some one. T looked out and said. " What do you want .' "' Some one said " Have you got any whisky here?" 1 said " Xo. What ha>.e you to do with it." He replied •' 1 am a police otlicer.' 1. aoked him where his luiiform was, and he said "That is all right. I asked the con ductorabi>ut it, and when we looked again, the fellow had disap])ear(Ml. 1 was informed that that was by no means an isolated case. I was tra\('lling in North Dakota a short time ago, whereas you know prohibitory law w.is in force. That law is most rigidly enforced in the dining-car. So long as you are in the State, liipior cannot be obtained. r did not make any iiMpiiries, but the law certaiidy- does not seem to be violated, although I was informed that you could get .dl the liquor you wanted. A'.y 7,'-r. Dr. MrUod: 40144. Speaking about the policenum who disturbed yourshnnbers in the I'ullm.aii, did he wear a uniform .' He did not ; that was thi' reason I comjilained. 4014"). Do you know wdu'ther it was an otlicer on duty who was trying U» get li(pior .' — He may have been both, btjcause the comluctor infoiined me that it was a very connuoii thing for policemen (ui pretei\se of carrying out the law, to try and get whisky. 401 Ml. Do you suppose that that was one of the reasons why prohibition was not more rigidly enforced in the North-west Territories ! 1 am tiot in a position to reply intelligently to that . If the peoplf knew the other \\a^ the law would llic\ oliject to it.'- 1 do not think they would. IDlTil. You spcike about Xorthwest prohibit ion and t he c\cc,ssi\|. diinkin^ there. I low loni; were you thi-re f 1 iie\er made any leii.i;tliy slay there, but I just passed llirou;;h four or live times and I had many opportunities of con\ersiii^ with residents of t he Tcrritorii'.^ : in fact, on my reciMit \isit to Knijland. I uaswitli a uciit lemaii from the Territories for many days. lOl.")."!. |)iil you learn from residents of the Territories that the permit system had aiiythini:- to (hi with the non enforcement of the prohibition law / I have heard that the permiti system was a uood way of jJiettinji' liiplor. and that ii >\as a relief after the pro- hibitory law. jOloii. l>o will think from what ymi learned of the iierinit systcmlli.il it w;isiallier one of permission than iirohibii ion .' I think it was one of permission. lOI'iT. l>oy(iu think the prohibition in the North-west Territories was a lair test of a [inihibitory law ! .liiduiiiL; from con\ersat ions I have had. 1 should say, decidedly, yes. mioS. ila\inu in mind thai lliepci'mits were issued generally and indi-^crimina- tcly ! I cannot say that, from my nun personal knowledn'c. but I lia\e heard thai it was not \eiy ditli<'ull to uct permits. 401")!). 1 )o you think the soei.il driiikinii cause-, luoie drinking ilian legalized drink- in;;? -I can scarc('ly ^isi' an intelligent reply to that tpiestion. I am afraid there is a i;ood deal of soci.il drinkini: ;;oiiiu on throughout the world. There was in Ijondon, recently, a great conferent'e res])ecting .social drinking and drinkinu' amonusl women. lOHib. That is social drinking, in what sense .' 1 )rinking in houses and in other places than in public bars or houses. ■U)hil. Not drinkinu' against i he law ?-- - No : because there is no law to prohibit drinking. Kl'il!. I think you .said that the license law m N'ii'toria was pia.t ically local (tjitioh ? Ill my opinion it is. 4Ul(i.'{. Will you please explain how that is .' I will do it in this uay : ifana[ipli- catioii is made to the Coinniissioneis for a license for an hotel or a saloon we will lake the case of Hii hotel — the application must lie ac<'ompaiiied by ,i petition signed by a \erv large percenlage of resiilcnts li\ing in the block in which I he a|i|)lieant proposes to have his hotel ; and moi'e than that, if you will look at the .\et, which I presume you have befoi'e you, ii reipiisition is also neeessiiry from t he ratepayer> and |iroperty owners on the opposite side of the street . ( >f coui'se it is very dithi'ult to get signa- tures, ami 1 ha\e from time to time sympalhi/ctl with applii-ants on their lia\iiig lopre sent a document which has been a pretty troublesome matter to [irocure. The ('oininis- sioiiei's lia\(' gone into these a|i|ilicat ions \ery carefully. In some cases thev took (Lays lo consich'r them, and it really rests with the people them-e|\cs to deeid'- whelhei the license shall be granted or not. 4()lf»4. Is it not a fact that there is a license in N'ictoria which •aiinoi be re-,. iked i \ think not. 4Ul(>"). The Commissioiii'i's were informed yesterday ihal then- were liit-nses attach(>d to certain premises, and that these might be transferred from one pl.«ee to another, and that the licensees of those places lia\(' not t imply with the ]irovision to whicii you have referred? — The eustoin has been that in ease of ' old licenses, the 52a Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. nwu mm license reniuin with tin; lioldcr no loiif,' us ho behaves Iniiiselt' iiiid cdiulucts his house satist'iictoi'iiy. If he wislies to dispose of his saloon or hotel, as the case may i)e, h<^ nuist niak(^ ai)pli<-ation to the Court, in tiiis way: he must advertise; his apjilication, statinj^ that he proposes to transfer the license now held l)y him. Then the application must be deposited with tlu; Clerk for, I think, 14 days. At thesittin;^ of the Court theapi)lica- tion conies up for consideration. They consider the ai)plication and the character of the transfere(; just as carefully as they do an aiiplication for an ori;,'inal license ; so, unless the man is a respectable man who, in the opinion of the Court, is tit anfl pro])er to hold a licen -e, the application is not jii'anted. It is wronj^ to say that any license holder can liold his licens(! absolutely and without danf^er of its boinj^ revoked. 401<)(). Unless he violates the law ; -If he is reported against, the Commissioners will re\-oke thi; license. 10107. l>ut thei'e are not many vicjlations of the law? — Xo. As a class the sjdooii and hotel-keepers are a resjiectable lot of men. 40168. Have you reason to believe that illicit sale takes place? — I have no reason to think so. 401fi9. Ha\\eyou reason to think that it does not?— Fidm my [jersonai knowledge I know of no illicit selling beyond tliat of sale to aborigines in the district occasionally, and I nmst say that that crim(> has been on the increase latterly. 40170. 8till you did have certain conviction.s, fourteen, I think, you said ?— Yes, fourteen convictions : they were all, however, infractions of the new Sunday law. 10171. They were (|uaslied ( — They were (juashed : but the law can be amended by sim|ply inserting a clause defining a honii fide traveller. 4017L'. fs it your experience, asa License Coimnissioner, that coinictions for illicit selling are generally (juashed in this province, when they go on appeal to the Supreme Court I- -Certainly not. f take it that if a conviction is cpiashed or upheld, it is simply a mattei- of law and not of fact. 4017."^. You, as a Connnissioner, and tlu; Board had no doidjt whatever that viola- tions took place in those foui'teen eases ? I may state th.it the C(mnnissioners had nothing to do with tills mattei. I was sitting as Magistrate, and 1 and my brother Magistrate who sat with me, came to this conclusion : tlu; law does not define what is n /imin Jir/i- tra\eller, therefore it is 'pft to the Magistrate to decide whether those people who obtained li(iuor were bmui fide travellers or not. We decided that they wcsre not, and therefore convicted them. 40174. Do you think, as a License Commi.ssioner, that it would bo an improvement in the license law if licensed {)laces were obliged to close at night i — At what time i 40175. Say from 10 or 11 o'clock until the next morning? — I have always been of the opiinon that they should close, decidedly so. 40170. I suppose they are not recjuired to close at all except from Saturday night until ^londay ? — I believe that is the case. 40177. They can be open all night other days? — Yes. 40178. Would it be an achantage if there was a cei'tain iiour for closing ti.xed ? — There is such a \a\\ in (ireat I'litain, and it is most rigidly enforced and answers \ery m 1, i 4017!^t. And it is also in every other part of the country where the licen.se law is in force? — Yes. I do not see the use of keeping .saloons open all night; people do not \vant to drink all night. 40180. Does the trade need to b a mercliant, I believe? — Y'^es. 40185. In what line ? — 1 am a shipi)iiig merchant, a comuiission merchant and an insurance agent. l^oHKHT Wahd. 626 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 401HI). Ai't! you ail auotiuutH!!' .' — We arc fiiiaiirial ageiits. '1-0187. I>i) you receive (•()iisi;;iiiiiniits of lii|uui' a.s a eoniuiissioii meivliaut .' -It' I received a eoiisif^iiineiit of li(|U(>r I would turn it over to soinelMidy else, for I do not deal ill li<|Uor. I may say tliat many years lia\n eiajised since I ;is a cumini.shsoii mer cliant iiandleil licjuor ; in fact I do not hold a license. lOlHS, liut commission merdiants handle lic[uor, I suppose? — A commission iner ciiant wlio liandles li(iuor must have, in addition to his license as a merchant, a speciiil licenst^ for li(iuors. 40 1 Si). Do merchants here hold licenses ,' -Yes, you will tint I a list of licensed trades, etc., in the Munici|)al Act. The wholesale merchant pays so much. I think .•nses is distinct? -[t is a special matter, •tOlill. .May I ask you why several years ago you went out of the liquor husincirs ( JfljiiK .MrUON'AId). -AVitness, you can use you own discretiou in regard toanswcr- ing that (|uestion. WITNKS.S. — It is a personal matter, hut [ lia\e not the least objection to answering that ((Uestion. Ukv. Dli. ^[cTJE()l). — You did not need the protection of the Chair, then; WrrXESS. — I thank tlnKy'hairman for ins action, liecause that is a matter pcisonal to myself. [t was very kind of him to state that it was a personal matter, for of course I might have had personal n\isons for not answering tin' c|Ui'stion. l>ut, as it is, I ha\t' no j)eisonal reasons. It was sim]ily a trade in which I took no personal interest, and n<»t having any interest in it, I knocked it oflFa.s a branch which we did not intend to follow. -lOli)!.'. .My l)urpose in asking that (juestion was to ascertain whether voiir course might lie regarded as iiulicating a change in jiublic sentiment in regard to the liijuor trade .' -Xoni.' whatever. It was not that -it all. it was simply because it was a business in which 1 took no interest, and I never had any fancy for it. 401 !•.'). Fiave you, as a business man, observed how the liipior tratlic affects various interests connected with it : for instance, the social life of the ])eop!e. I )oes it allect those interests beneiicially or injuriously .' Considering the numlier of drunks brought before the court, J do not ciuisider that socially there is any serious injury done to the cominuiuty. Comparing large cities with small, 1 do not think that X'ictoria has an unfavourable record in that dii(;ction. 40194. 1)(KNS the linuor tratlic materially elevate people /—That is a (|Uestioii which I am ]ierliaps unable to answer. 1 cannot .search into a maits conscience or into his feelings, and I do not know how it atl'eels the moral feelings of the iieople who drink. If a man drinks to excess, it is to be regretted very much. 401'.).^. Does the drink trade affect the moral conditioii of the community at large'? — I should say not. I do not think drinking is carried on in this city to .ane.xtent that such an eti'ect is produced on the community in any v.ay. 4019C). Does it allect injuriously or beneiicially the other branches of business in the community ?--That is a very far reaching ([uestion too, because all matters of trade Ijy which money is circulatc^l must benefit every oii(> more or less, and of cou'.se it isdifli- cult to say where the circulation of that money will end. 401i)7. Does the licjuor trade circulate or absorb money .' — 1 should say boili. 4011)S. Which chiell}' I — It alisorbs a certain amount of money which drinking men pay int(') it ; but, on the other hand, the money must be circulated. 4019'J. IJy whom ! — By the per-sonswho receive the moiH^y for a maiis liipior. I do not assume that they keep it in a stocking. 40200. Does the liipior trade circulate the money as freely as the people would do if they did not patronize the liipior trade? I think the man who sells liipior or anything else if he makes money, and is intelligent, will use the money so as to beiielit hijiiself, while at the same time it benetits the cijiiinmiiity. 40201. Have you ob.served whether any proportion of t lie poverty of the community is traceable directly or indirectly to the liipior trade and the liipior habit ? 1 cannot deny that poverty and crime may result from excessive drinking, but in my ojiinion I do not think that sort of thing prevails in the niajoritv of cases, onlv in individual cases. 527 ' Si! m m ::;!-;:>' Liquor Tiallic — British ("oluinbia. Yon me Ixmnd to luivc iiiiuiy (•oiniiiiiiiil y ciisrH « licrc drink Ims lumiiflil I lie dririkiT lu poverty : tliat, i>t' coui'.sc, caiiiiot he denied. KJ202. Is tliat of tiie same eliaiiu'ter ! I l)elie\e e.\uessi\c sriiiikiii^' lias \eiy siniiliir ' pH\?ct9 ; I do not go in very inueli for smokin;; myself. ■l()20;i. |)o yon tliink excessive sniokin;; prodnces the same elleei> as exeessixc diinkini,' I - No. Kl"Jll|. Then do yon know any otlier trade |ii'o(hiein;; the same etlects that i-^ lejfishited for and protected in tliis eomitry as is tlic; lii|Uor trade, speaking i)ro(idlv .' I must ask you to speak hroadly, an regarfls the effects to wliieh you refer. lOl'O."). The effects you have in your miiul yourself, as to the liipior trade lieini.' a jx'cidiar trade iieedin!,M-e;^ulation ? — You ask me whether I know of any other trade that re(|uii'es re;,'ulatiiii; the same as eculiar trade. 4021'J. Is it peruliar hccause it produces peculiar ell'ects ? - 1 have said that the li(pior ti'ade reipnres to be refjulated. and I have always maintained it, hecause it is surrouiuled hy incidents which cro]) upfront time to time and which reijiure to he watched carefully by the authorities in order that tlu^ trade siiail be properly and respectably conducted, smujiulint;, eti-., disorderly con.luct on the part of the holder nf the license, and permittinu; disordcM'ly conduct in the house of the licensee. 4021.'i. So the drink trade pioduees disorders uliicli are not proiluced i)y other trades .'- T deem that the licpior trade, uidess proj)!'! ly rej,'ulated, mif,dit drop into thai. 40'_M 1. Does the license .system re,i;ulate the trade? — I think so. 40l!lo. Why, thiMi, are disorders produced? T do not say that there would lie no disorder, althouu;li, as T said, i do not recollect in my experience of any conviction Ix'in^ passed for disorderly coiuluct in a bar-room oi' licensed hous(< in Victoria. 402 1 (). Do you assume that because there has b(>en no conviction for disorder in a bar ro(nu, there is none in bar-rooms? — T must assume that, because, as [ told you, wheiu'ver I have been on the Licensini; Hoard T have always made it a point to put (|uestions to the ])()licemen u])on that very point, and the Sujieriiitendent of Tolice. if he were here, woidd no doubt contirm my ojiinion on those matters, because I have been very particular in regafd to them. 40217. Your objection to prohibition, I understand, is to the principle : youflonni approve of the principle?- T believe that by enacting; a proldbitory law there would l>e more druid'jenness in this province. 102IS. You think prohibition wnuld bi- conducisc to drunkeimess ? 1 think .n the Stickeen IJiver, Itiitish Columbia. 40227. ^\'hel■e did you li\'e before you went to the Stickeen Kiverf -I li\cd in N'ictoria a couple of years. 4022S. ,Vud where did you live before that / In California. 4022!t. You are a Califoruian .'-Yes. 4()2.'{0. What law is in force at Fort ^^'l•anfi;ell in regard to the sale of licpior ; is there any law allowing li(|Uor to be sold there .' —No. 402."51. Is it contrary to law to sell li(|Uor there ?-- Yes. 40232. Can liquor be obtained there .' Y^'s. Almost all tiic timi'. 402.'J.'1. What kinds of liijuor d peojtle use thos(> li(|uors .' ^'es, they do. 40235. How do they get them if it i.s against the law to sell liijuors .' Thai is more that- I can tell you. 4023(). Have you seen those li(|Uoi-s there? -Yes. 40237. Is lii|uor opeidy sold ? — Y'es. 4023S. How large a ])lace is Fort Wrangell ] There are few white people there, about 30 all told. 40239. Are there any stores f — There are four store.s. 40240. Is li(|Uor sold in the stores ? — No. 40241. Where i.s it sold .'--In the saloon.s, tliere are three saloons. 40242. Do they sell li(|Uor to other than to white people .' Not that I know of. 4024.3. Is there no lloating jiopulation passing through tin; territoric^s? Yes, tliert- are a great many. 40244. Do the saloons sell to them ?- Yes. 4024.5. By the glass /—Yes. 402415. What is the price of liipior there? 25 cents a drink. 529 21 34** i:-\ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) k ^^ f.%"^d. A u. Ic ^ 1.0 I.I 11.25 ;fiM ~ li£ IIIIIIO IIIIIM lllll^ 1.8 1.4 v; ^ /a %^,>- ^ 7 ol^ ■> '/ /A Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 (716) 873-4503 '^-^^^U ,^^ u. %^ ^ O^ Liquor Tmttic — British Columbia. 40-47. Alt' there iniiiiy stores .'— Tliere are 15 stdivs. 4024H. Is the li(|Uor 8l. (!nnno( they enforce the law '. — It ap()ears not. 402(52. Do they try to do so! They have trit-d several times, hut they have not stop|)ed the triMle. 402<'>'V Are the people who live in the town mostly jM-ople who take whisky ? ~— They are mostly people who take it : most of them ai-e miners. 40204. Are most of the people at Fort Wranfjell |MH>ple who drink?— Yes. 4t/205. Then tln-re are very few out of the 'M) whites who do not tlrink ? -Yes. 4020(1. An- tliere any other im|)ortatil places in Alaska? There is Sitka, the heiwl ({Uarters for Alaska traders. 40207. Have you I teen tliere? Yes. 4020K Is litpior sold there f— Yes. 4020J). Is no <-ffort made to ntop the side .' There have U-en many efforts to stop it by Deputy Marshals, and they have trieyj to stop the sale of li(|Uor to Indians. 40270. Do you think tin- United States otKcials have honestly trietl t«> stop the traffic? -Y'es. 1 really think so. 40271. Do you think they are unable to do so? They are unable to (h> so. 40272. What is the |)opular sentiment aliout the sale : do the |)eople wish lil<> iiilami, Imck tVoni the ma.Ht '. Tlit-ri' is Telegriipli Cn'(*k, jiikI tlicr** is ii ii(ius<< tlieri* tliiit sells lii|iiiir. 402Hi). Is it nwir tin- I'liitcd Sutes ? It is in Hritisli Ciiluiiihiii ; it is ii littuM.d llllUMU. 4()'290. }lii\f you Im'cii in tlic nottln'm lountrv iM-vond Mritisli Coiuniltiii. on tlic nortlii'rn iHiundui V .' -I iiiivt- ni'vcr U'fii t'urtlnT tliiin Cliilinit UiviT nnd Klurc I'my. % AVc. Dr. M,Lfi„i : 4021H. Is siilf to Iridiims proliihittHlf Yes. \K)'l\)'l. Does imylHHly sell to tliein \ I nevt-r lould tdl, liiit it is sii|i|>os»'d tiicy do, ln'riiusu \v(> oouasionitlly tind intoxicated Indians. 4029;{. Do tin* ollii'crs who >wk snpjxtscd to enfoivf tlu- law also drink '. I do not know. 402!M. What makes it impossible for the oflicers to enforce the law ; what ohstrue- tions do the |M'ople present f The enforcement, of course, de|M-nds on the otiicials sent from \Vashinf;ton. They are sent over to till positions, and they do not care whethei- they carry out their instructioii.s or not. 40l.'y"i. You mean so lonj; as they yet their salaries; ^'es ; they come to tliMt country to make money more than anything else. By Judy Mclinnnlil : 4U'J'J*i. We I ave it in evidi-nce to-iluy that lit|Uor is sent to Alaska in cariioes of liutter. Have yoii .seen anythin<;of that/ Yes. A ^.'rftat many years a|[;o it came in eorn«'o you mean spirits/ Yes. % J{>;: Dr. Mc Lead: 4()2'.'i^. I supjKtse if then- was corne'.(. What position do y«»u occupy / I am Postmaster of the city. 40."U)U. How lonj{ have you lived in Victoi-ia / I arrived here in iJ^tJ'-'. 40.501. I'rom where/ -From Kn^diuid. 4U.'«)-. When you came here, I suppose a license law was in force ! Yes. 4U'{0.'5. Has it In-en in force tner since /■ Yes. 40.5O4. How ilfK's it Work / <)f i'our.se the licen.se law has U'cn cliaii;;cd finm limt* to time since then. 40.'{((r». Take it as it is now : (Iik's it work .satisfactorily / -As a license law it works all right, I presume. iOiUjfi. Are you yourself favouralile to license' I am ie)t. 40307. Are you favourable to prohibition / Yes. 40.'W8. As a principle / Y'es. 40.'<0y. Are you oppo.sed on jirinciple to the lieensin;; of the liipior trade? ^'e.s. 40.U0. Do you think it wi'ong / — 1 do. JO.'U I. If you could not have prohibition I supixi.se you wduld prefer licen.se to i .. trannnelled sale, oi- would you rather have untranunelle*! sale? If 1 could not have pio- hibition, I would take the next U-st thing. 40.'Ul?. Do you think license the lu^xt best thing? I pi-nsunie if there was im pro- hibition, there must 1m* license. 40:U.'J. Not always. Charlottetown has neitlier prohibition nor lieens*'. The people repvalee your first ehoiee ?- Yes. 40.'{| I. Tako license or untrammelled sale, whi<"h would y^. As regards the regulation of the trade in this country, from y. You think a retention of the old law recpiirement by which a certain iiuni Im'I- of signatures were re«|uire«l is better? Yes, in order that the people siiould have ;i voice in saying whether a license should be granteose? — No. 40.'127. You have no knowli-dge as to the reasons put forward for this change beini.; niiuh'? No, lj«'cause I am not a memlM'r of the Ij«'gislature. 4032H. Have you reason to iM-lieve that there is much unlicensed sale ■"• this city '. -I have no reason to Iwlieve it. 4032!). In case of the enactment of a |>rohil>itory law for the r)ominion, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic li years for purposes of ifctification ? -Yes. 40333. Aim! are also com)ielled to carry out certain departmental regulations ai d to pi-ovide machinery from tii.ie to time, and that this may Im- changed from time t<> lime by order of the department? -Yes. 4(3334. It has specially l)een in reganl to compensation for plant that this ijuestion has iH'en put. -Yes. Noah Hhakkhhk.mjk. 532 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1»94 40.'t:t.'>. Yiiu tliink ii fait- reiiiuncration sluiuUI Ih> made? — Yes. ny H>v. Dr. McLeod : 40.'{;i((. During tlie 30 years you Jiavc Ix-eii licif, liave you iiotit-ecl ui»y cliiingc in till' . Do you think that, since such right of license applies t<» certain premises in pci-petuity, there is a tendency to :{r)S. Have you of the i-oiiniuinity, svIu'IIkt it lias Immmi ({(mkI or )>ad ? — 1 tliink had. 4().'5.")Jt. And what lias liccii its efl'oct on the husincss interests ot ihc province I li has iM'cn aj;aiiist the husiiiess interests of the province in many respects. People have spent money in a way that they should not ; and, of course, liusiness has snfl'ered untdii ally. 40.'{f>0. |)oyou tliink a proliil>ity fairly well enforced .' If it is well enforced. % /{,r. Dr. M< hoif : WMVl. Do you mean enforced like other laws?— Yes. 4UHG.'$. Looking; at the very complete rejiort of the Chief of Police of the city, in which lie distinguishes oH'ences committed hy all other persons than fndians and Chinese during' I8!H, it appears that only one Chinaman was charged with Ix-infj drunk and only one convicti'd for hein;; drunk, namely, that one |>ci'son. That fact I'onveys the idci that there was very little drunkenness amonu the Chinese .' 'X\w Chinese are very smart |)eople. They not only escape the law in that rej,'ard hut in many resjK'cts that tiic whit« man d(H>s not. •I03G4. You think that when they do drink to excess they do not come within lli' range of tin |Milice .' I think a great deal of their drinking is done in their iiomes. .FOHN M. TiANOLEY. of N'ictoi'la, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : lijf Jiiihji- Mi-DniuthI : WM\h. What |Hisition do you occupy ? I .-im Sergeant of the (Sovernment I'oiirr for the Province of JJi'itish ('ohind>ia. tO.'iCif). How long have \ ou I'esided in the province .'I was lM)rn heie. t(>."U)7. Have you always lixtMJ here? Xo. 1 li\ed II years in Ciilifornia in iii\ younger days. 40;$*)^'. How long have you lieen sei-geant lice otKcer. 40.'tGy. What is the strength of the police force, how many men? — There are aliout 40 men throughyut the Province. 40.'i70. What are their duties .' To liMik after the criminal and li(|Uor laws. 40;J7I. Do you act in cases of crime connnitted. such ;is nnirder, hurglary, assault. eU-. >. Yes. 10372. Are you also a detecti\e force ? Yes. 10.17.'{. Do you attenti to any municipal ca.ses? No. 40.'{74. Then you an* really a pro\'incial constahulary .'--Yes. 40.'{75. Do you take notit'e of breaches of the peace and anything of that kimi^' —Yes. 4037fi. Who is commander of the force .' V. Hussey is superint«*ndent. 40377. Have you anytliing to do with the enforcement of the license law in \ ii toria ? — Yes. NOAII HllAKKSPK.MiK. 534 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 40.t7H. Ynii assist tin- niuiiicipiil |Miifiit ut' the .Vet in thf lunil district*? — Yes. 40.'{H0. How iiiHiiy liccnst'tl jihu-cs arc there in the rural (hstnets? I roiihl not siiv witliout ret'errinj,' to tiie ImmiIis. 40.'5HI. Are then' niunv .' Yes. there iir*- a ;;i-eat nii«,ny. 4().SK2. Is Nanainio within your distrifl.' -Yes, the distriit is. 40.'{H.'J. Is New Weslniinster a niuuici|)iility 1 — Yes. 41I.SSI. Mow (hi you tinil tlie hcense law work? — Very well in the eountrv distriets. 4().'1H."». Can you su;,';{est any atuunit' the law sulli eient? No. 4031^7. What others wciuld you have proxided? The present law in regani to elosini{ on Sunday does not work. We arrested ipiite a iiunilM-r of parties when the law was lirst •Mit'oreed and ohtained a few convictions, hut they wi-re upset on appeal. 40MHH. We understotHi from ^^^. Ward that the i|in'slions antse on ap|N>al as to what constitutes -v luiini Jiilr traveller.' That was the point. 40.H.';islature and a fmiiti jliir traveller should be clearly defined .' Yes : the law should Ih- madeclttar one way or another. 4031t.'{. .Vre there any other points of ditlitulty with it ?-— No ; that is all. 4(>.'t!>4. Do you travel about the country a f^tnid deal ,' I do, that is on N'ancouver island ; 1 do not pt on the mainland much further than to New Westminster. 40.'li)r». .\r«' you favcnirable to the license system .' Yes. 40.39(>. Are you in favour of prohibition / - 1 am not. 40.'l!)7. Do you tiiink if a jirohibitory law were passed, it couU! Ite enforced ? -I rlo not think sn. lO.'MJS. In what way do you fancy it would fjiil ?- If a man wants to drink he Nv ill ;;et it. lO.'iyi*. Have you fear of sniu;^<;linj,' and illicit stills/ Yes. 40400. In case of the passafje of a )j;eiieral |>roliibitory law, do you think it rii;ht that brewers and distillers shotild receive compensatimi for loss of plai>t and machinery .' I do. Jii/ Bei: Dr. Mrhml : 10401. Do you think the license law. from your observation of it, really regulates till' trade '.- Yes. 4040'J. How did you account for those cases of violation and the con\ ictions to which y-<'s? Y«'m. 4040*.). Hiiv)' you obNerved if it is tru«> that it' it iiwin wnnts iliiiik, lie will nvt it (luring pntliibittHl hourH or nut ( — I think he will get it. if ho wishi-s it. 40410. If he wants it on Sunday will he get it?- He will geta IkihU-. He will g*'t a iNittlt* liefor'e the Haloon cloHes. 40411. l>oeH he Hnd some people holding licenses who will sell to him on Sunday lo they work in concert with the police or individually! They work iiidi\io they make r.'|M>rts to the provinc'al aiitliorities ! Yes. N«J. MOOK, of Victoria, on Iteing duly sworn, «le|><»se«l as folUiws : — Jiy Juilgf McDuitnlii : 40417. VVhat is your m-cupation ? I am at present manager of the Chin Chong Company of general merchants. 4041s. How long you lived in Victoiia '. Altogether aisful l."> or 18 years. 404IU. Difl you come from China originally? Yes. 404_'0. ^Vha^ piovince ? Canton. 404:il. Are li(|Uors sold there? Yes. 404 J2. Is a license law in ojieration there? Xn, there are no licenses there. 4()4'j;l. Do the Chinese in Victoria take otit licenses to s«'ll ? Yes. 404t.'l. Are they men who .sell liquors? Yes, most of them sell Chinese wine, which tliey import. 4042">. Are thei-e any Chinese .saliMins here selling li(|iior by the glass? No. They only sell bv the gallon. 404--'(i. Are they wholesalers? Ye,s. 40427. Do they sell Chinese wine? Yes. Chinese wine is distilleil from rice. 4042f<. Are you well ac(|uainted with the Chinese people in this city? -Yes. 404'_'!t. Will you please state to the Commission whether they are a sober j>eoplo? - I think they are. 404.'10. Take the |M>ople in China itself : arc lliey shImt' Yes; J. think they are, a.s a whol«\ Bjf R-v. Ih\ MrLvinl: 404;U. Does your company .sell li<|uor ? Yes. 404.'t2. Do you sell much ? Not very nnicli. 404.1."!. Df» you sell in ijuantities of less than one g.illnn .' No. 404.34. Do you sell any except Chinese liijuor '. No. 404."l.^i. D«> any Chinese sell whisky? I do not think so, 404.trl i-Drtiii. lOltl. WouliJ vou ouiiMider it iiioiv like win«', whisky rii-Kin ? It is more like wine. 10442. Is i( eolouitMJ or white? — We have it coh)ureitid is of various dejjrees of stn'tigtii. % Mr. />,: Mrl.^nil , 40441. Does your com|Miny sell o|iium ? -We difl until lately. 40445. Have you a license to .sell opium? Yes. 40I4<». The sjime as you have a license to .sell Chinese li(|Uor? — Yes. 40447. An- there many C'hinese in Victoria who have licenses tos«'ll liquoi- ,' — Hall' n dozen or therealjouts. It I) Jiitiiji- MrDouahl : 4044H. Are they nil whole.siih' clcalei-s ; Yes. 4044!t. Is this li(|uor of which you have spoken sold in C^'liina? — Ye.s. 40450. Do they take out licenses to sell it there? Theiv are no licenses in Ciiina. 40451. Then a man starts and sells it without any authority ! Yes. 4045"J. Does the (Joverimient contnil the manufacture' of it ? No. 4045.'{. Tlieiv is no license fee cliarKi^l ? -No. Bif Jtrr. I),. M,Le(Hl: 40454. Do you consider that the Chinese in this country drink iiiori' than tlu'y do in China? -Yes, they use the liijuor daily, aUiut meal times. 40455. Do any Chinamen in China use whisky ! Very seldom. In-cause they can ifct this Chine.se wine so much cheajier. 40I5»». Have you ever lived in San Francisco? -Yes. 40457. Are there any Cliine.se saliwins there.' I do not think so; if llierearc, tlicy a i-e controlled \ty white men and there is a white proprietor. ;■ ( |{i:v. .M»HN CA.MIMiKU., of Victoria, on l»ein;{duly sworn, . How long have you residel. Have you notictnl the workiii;( of the license law in Kritisli Columhia .' Not very much, e.\«u'.pt what I havt; seen in the city. 404()'J. Do you timi any ditliculty in workin<; it ; are its provisions ohserved I .*so t'ar as I am conceriu"id not Siinc(M' County pa.ss the Scott Act ? Yi-s. 404(54. Did you live there theii ? - Ye.s. 404(»5. Then the Act was reiK-ah-d and was followed l>y the license law .' Yes. 40466. Was the license law in force when you left there? It was. 404*57. An' you favourable to the licensing of the trade, or aiv you oppo.scvei'y day. I do not think it could he car- I'ied out just now, hut the sentiment in that you think it would be right and just for brewers and distillei's to receive remuneration for their plant and machinery rendered useless t I think not. I think the proper thini; to do would be to give them sufficient length of time to allow them to get out of tlic busine.ss and get rid of their stock. 4048;{. You are aware that di.stillers aie retpiired to keep their stock for a ceituin length of time for )>ui'poses of rectification ! Yes. /iy Jtf'i: Dr. M,l.<'od: 40484. You have ob.served the operation of the license law and of the Scott Ail. Comparing the two systems, which would you prefer \ I would prefer the licen.se law. I have been in two counties and have observed, \ery clo.sely, the working of the Scott Act in both. 40485. ^Vhy do you prefer license to the Scott Act .' Hecau.se a great many plact'> spring up where intoxicating drinks are sold, which do not iN-come established whci-c houses are licensed. That has been my observation, particularly in the town of Collinu W(Mld. 4048t). That is to say that li<|Uor is sold illicitly when the county has Ijeen uiuh r the Scott Act, but not when drink is allowed to l)e sold under license ? No ; but it is sold in a great uuvny low places, in back I'lmms, etc., under the Scott Act, and it is not so sold when licenses are granted. 40487. You think license is preferable to illegal traffic ? I think so, especially t" the Scott Act as it stands. 40488. What was the difiiculty with the Scott Act? The difficulty was this : thai public sentiment wa.s not sufficiently strong to have it properly carried out. 40489. That was the cau.se of the repeal ? Certainly. 4041(0. Do you think a lietter state of things prevailed after the return to liceii'^i' ' I do, particularly in the County of Simcoe. This was not .so noticeable in Wellingtnn, Ijecause the temperance sentiment there was more favourable towards the Scott Act and its enforcement than it was in Simcoe. 40491. Do you Ijelieve that law is an educator? I do, to some extent. 40492. Do you believe that the drink habit is an evil thing? I cert^iinly do. 40493. Do you Ijelieve a law that delegalizes the liquor traffic educates peoi'lc against the liquor traffic ? I think so. However, I do not believe the safety of tlif community lies so much in the law jis in the churches, and in the education of the people. 40494. You refer chieHy, of course, to the moral and religious influences ? I iI'l Rkv. John Camphkij.. ■ 538 'H 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 (U4'J'>. Doyuiitliiiik the liiw is a li)-l|) to it>li^'iuus ami inontl iiilluciii cs ? I ni- tiiiiily «io. 4UI'.)t). I><) you think tliat while the church in trying toi'diicat) the |M>n|)|f I'liucorti- iiii; the ('hai'tiet<>i- uf tlif drink trade itri the |)(ii|il<> to rctVaiii tVom drink, the lejjali/ation of the tratHc l>y the license syNieni liel|)s the rhiireli in the exerrise of this intlueiice. Kor instance, the church seeks to educate the people to the lielief that the drink trattic is an evil tiling. Is tlie church helped in that work liy the le;;ali/atioti of the tratiic /- No, the cliurcli is not hel|M-(l by the lejialiwition of the traHic. The church liHtks upon tiie tratiic as an evil, and lepili/.ation docs not liel|i in puttini: down th(? e\ il ; hut rest rictin<; certain evils hy law is much lietter than rcnioxal of restrictions. K)t!)7. You prefer a license law to untraniinc^lled sale .' C'crtaiidy. 404!)^'. Do you think sale is free and untrainiiielled under the Scott Act.' No: In-cause if the .Scott Act is violated the violators are supposed to he punished hy law ; but if public sentiment is not sulliciently stron;; to enforce the law, it is \i-ry dillicidt for the authorities to see that, the law is carried out. 4()49!l. Is the ditHculty in cartyin;; out the Scott Act or any other law due to the authorities or to public opinion / [t nii^ht be dut; to both: but unless the authorities are backed up by public opinion, it is almost impossible for the ollicers of the law tu carry tlie law into effect witii any decree of satisfaction. 40500. When public opinion is in favour of the enforcement of the law, do the otKcials do their duty ami enforce it ? No, tney do not. 40r)0|. Then it is fair to charjie tl»e non-enforcement to a weak pid)lic opinion, or do you make the oflicials responsible for that non-eid'orcement '. I do not know that you can make the otticials responsible ; T would rather place the responsibility on weak )iublic opinion. 40.")02. l)o you think in all cases where the law is not eid'orced the evil lies in public o))iDion ( — No, I do m)t : but I think the otlicials of the law jjenerally manaije to carry it out in .some de<;ree, if puV)lic .sentiment is in favr>ur of it, because pidilic opinion seems to be tliat l)y which the world is governed. 40r>0;{, Do you believe in general prohibition / Certainly. 40504. You think a prohibitory law, well enfyrceil, as well enfuned as any other law, would be |>roduetive of f^ood, morally and tiiumcially .' I do. 40505. In your exjjerience as a clergyman and in the discharge your pastoral tluties, have you observed whether, t. In what degree, do you think .' Jna very traceable directly or indirectly to the tratiic. 40507. Do you think that if the traffic were prohibited, those evil ellects would be diminished? — Certainly ; but I am not so sure that jiroliibition could be carried out at present. 4050H. But do you think that public sentiment is growing in that direitidi .' Yes. and it hius changed during the last 10 years more than liefore, jiarticulariy in the eastern provinces. 4050!l. Y'ou have not Im-cii here a sutlicient length of time to be able to judge of public opiiuon on this (|uestion ? No. liut with respect to the drink lialiit in this city I am able to .say that 1 have l)een here five months, and J ha\e seen le-s drunkenness than I have seen in any town or city in which I have lived during any ti\e months of my life. 40510. Do you attribute that to the license system '. 1 do not know to what it can be attribute, you ai'4- auiirc that t\\v HcotI Act was r«>|N*alMl in iHitii of tJieiii when the tiin«* arrivinl at which tilt* vote coulil Im> tni<«'n ? Yi'h. lOril.'l. ho y«>u iM'Ut'vt' that tlif iNHipU* wfir inthieiicfii to any t^xtt^nt in ropf'aUn); the Act hy thf Ntatf of thiiix>; which you have nicntionHl f I certainly think tliey looked u|M)n the Act un h ooniplcte failuri'. TIion** who voted in favour of it wlien it wit* ciirrietl anil hecanie law in those counties ex|iecte(l nnich more from the Act than wan reiili/eil, and when they hhw it wax a failure and could not Im> enforcetl, they weiv glad to repeal it. % ff'f. Dr. M>L>-od . J0ril4. Do you Itelieve a law against an evil has any ettect in creating a strong jiulilic ftH'ling against that e\il .' f think ho, on certain lines parti. For instance, if the drink traffic is an evil, and it is desirable to have public opinion against it, (Um's a law against it creat«> public sentiment against it ! It (h>e8, ininn. Hj;v. (/ >\' KIIMALT'] WATSON, of Vict:{U. Itiil you would nitlii'i- lia\<' lici-ii.si' tliiiti untrnniiiifllfil siilt* f V<-h. 40."».'M. Mnv«' you IukI iiiiy ox|M'rit'iicf iim pr.iliiWitnry fuuiiti V ' I liii\ ••iiiictiiicnt of a ;,'i*it*Tiil proliilMtory law for tlii> lloiniiiiuh, a law to piitliiliit tUv uiaiiufiicturc, iiii|iot'talioii and Mali* of intoxicating lii|uo>'sfoi- JMni- ra^** pur|M)NCH, do you think it ri^lit that ItifwiTs and distillers should l)t< riMnuni-rat«>d for their iiiitnt and machinery rendered useless / Not hy any means. lO'i.'t.'t. Would you think it ri^ht to allow a limited time for those eh^'a;^'e I in tin- ItusineHs to i.-ontinue, so us t4> allow them to disiNtse of their slock ' Yes, I would Ih- in favour of that. have Iteen in the jirovince, have von "■ drink trade.' I ha\e noticed verv Hi/ Jier. Or. Miboii: 4U.*t.{4. huriii^ the ei^ht or niiifi years yi oliserv»Ml any ehan)f«( in pulilic feeling; towards ;;reHl chauijes intiemi. 4U5;l."). What ha.s U-en the chariu-ter of th' ciianjjes .' When I (irst came iiere, I I years a>i ^aniaitions, whic! >o ,i gtnA sNork. I never .sawso>;reat an excitement '.nd revulsion of feeiinjj as ha« occurred on the ijuestioii during the lust two or three years in this province. In my opinion >!;.• people t>f this country are now against the li(|Uor trattic. 40").{(i. An; the various brand es of the Christian Church active in pixmiotiiiK tern |)erance? Most of them an*. 40r)l{7. Have you a Confer«'in-e of your chuich in this province .' Yes. I0r):{,s. Has the Conference made a delixeraiice on this i|uostion ? — It does so e.ich year. 405:{!». It is practically identical with the deliverance of ihe (ieneral Conference .' — Yes. 40">4U. Personally you concur in the character of the deiiveivuice of the (Jeiier.il Conference, I presume f Yes, certainly. 40")41. Hiul the deliverance of your Provincial Conference aj^retnl with tliat \ie\\ .' Yes. 40542. Have you a copy of your Conference proceedings of last year containing that deliverance ! — Yes. The deliverance which was adopted by the Conference is as follow^ (Appendix 9).' 40r)4.'<. In your contact with tin people as pastor, have you observe. Have you resided all that time in Viitoria/ Yes. 40r)47. Did you come liere from one of (lie other provinces? -Frttm New Bruns- wick. 40.")4S. What part ?— From Kredericton. /li/ Rev. Dr. JfcLeod : 40."»4i). I rememlier you were Inspector under the McCarthy Act for the County (»f York. Tell us .something about the working of the Act I — At that time the Scott Act was in force there. My duties were more particularly in connection with the general management of matters regarding the enforcement of the Scott Act, which remained foi- a time in aljeyaiice, lajcause it was determined liy the Supreme Court that the countv wius under the McCarthy Act at the time it was in o|)eration. The dithcultie.s at that time were, first, the unsettled state of the legal questions arising out of the Scott Act itself. I'pon those <|uestions came the eonllict in conse([uence of the ]»iNsage of tin- .McCarthy Act, and lietween the two, for three years the Scott Act hiui iiardly any existence at all practically. 40550. You have lived in Victori.i all the time you have lj«>en on the Pacific Coiist! — Yes, although I have Ix-en absent some part <>t tlie time. 40.">51. Have you observed how the license law has worked here ? I have not paid wry nmcli attention to those (|uestions here, except what I have gleaned front conversa- tions with people. 40552. Are you able to make comparison between the license system here and the Scott Act in the east? — It was never my good fortune to s»'e the Scott Act enforced, and therefore I am not prepared to make a comparison -that is, enforced according to iny idea of enforcing the law. 4055;{. What were the difHculties in the way of enforcement ? — I think in Y'ork the same ditKculties occurred as elsewhere. The public sentiment was very weak and the pe«jple violated the law. 40554. You think that was a difficulty which arose out of the legislation ? The difficulties that occurred out of weak legislation and the action of the Court no doubt had a very discouraging effect on public opinion, ivnd the peojile came very rapidly to the conclusion that the law could not be enforced, and it was not wi>rtli while to iMitlicr with it. 40."55. How long were you Inspector ? — Two years. 4055(5. How long was the law in force before that /It was i-i force from August, 1871*, until June, 1884, when the McCarthy Act came into o[K»ration. 40557. There was only partial enforcement during that time? — -Yes. 40558. Do you know why there; was only partial enforcement at that time ,' Thai arose out of the difficulties to which F havt; referred. In the first place the const itii tionality of the Scott Act was imjiugned, and the Sup.eme Court ditt'ered from tin other court as to that. The case went through all the courts up to the Privy Council : two years had passed before the final decision was reached, and during that periiKl there certainly was but partial enforcement of the Act. 4055!). Would you attribute that partial enforcement to the fact that those ijucs- tions were befoie the Ctiurts and nothing uould be done ?-- Practically during this tiiiu'. owing to the decision of the Supreme Court of New Mrunswick and until that decision was reversed, there was no Scott Act, and sal(K)ns were opened and licenses gra>'teil. That state of things prevaileo you re;,'ard the license system as a better way of dealing with the trade .' -I liave no d<»ui)t whatever that in the state of pul)lic opinion it would l>e diHicult to ^•nforce any other .system. 405))7. Which part of the lieense system i|o you prefer, the license c.r the prohibi- tion? I have not a veiy stron;.; opinion on that matter. 405(18. You cannot express an opinion on it .' — If I had my choice I would sa\ prohibition; 1 would mil take lonj; to decide that i|uestion. But from the impression that I think prevails in this countiy it would be useless to enact a |>rohibitorv law. 10569. You consider that prohibition is impracticable? It is impracticable in this •country at pri'.sent. 40570. \yhat means lia\e you had of ascertainin;; the public sentiment on the ([uestion f 1 know a i^ood many peojtle who to a certain extent rciiresent public opinion. I have been pretty nearly all o\er tlie province except in the very rural districts, i ha\e Iteen in all the larj;e and public centres, and my experience has Im'cii the .same as it has lieen in a jjreat many otiier places, that the larj^e majority of the people were favourable to pi'ohil)ition : at tliesame time they are not favourable enou;.di to say that if such a law were enacted, they woidd put themselves out in the least to see that it was t>nforced. 40571. |)oyou agree that there has Ih'cii a marked change in public opinion during the last few years? I have been here four years, and for myself 1 do not feel capable to give an o))inion on tliat point. 40572. l)oyou think there has l)een any change.' T liii\c not been here long leiiough to be able to remark any. in my |>articular circle I have not noticed any change. 4057.'5. You believe in the principle of prohibition? Yes, tlie same as 1 believe in a great many other principles ; but I do not .see any particular use for it in tliis country just now. 40574. Can you concei\e a condition of things that woulil justify the embodiment of that principle in law / Yes ; and when the community reaches that point, then it seems to me that tlu^ proliibitmy law is of itself useless. 40575. So in that case a prohibitory law would be useless .' Nu, 1 did not say that at all. f mean in this way : the community might consist of jieople who were all total abstainers, that is to say, a .Miinmunity where, so far as the jieople were concerned, jii'ithibition would not be able to do ser\ ice. If such a condition prevailed over' the whole country, that conclusion would of course be true ; but it would also undoiditediy happen tliat there would be communities where the majoi-jty were total abstainers, and where a minority, if tliere was not prohibition oi' restriction, w.iui( li(|Uor liu.'roportion. 40577. Woulil you have rigid measures taken to protei i certaiidy go into the le looked after and of the people Would the niinoritv. The nnionty. n. lority have no rights in the goveriwnent, except rights that are connnon to all. Jiy Judy Mi/Jonakf : 40578. I understaiul then, from what you say and from your knowledge of the city and of the state of feeling in tiie country, that there would 1m' a majority of people in liritish Columbia in favourof prohibition as an abstract proposition .' -No doubt of it. 648 it' 67 Iii. But sii till- ii.s pruliilntiuii Iteiiig practically ciirried out, you think that majority would fade away I — I think so. It wouKI fade away lieforc it could l»e a failure in enforcing the law. I do not think there is a provinct; in Canada in which it would Ite more ditticult to enforce the law than here. We have an immense country sparsely Hettle«l along the Tnitetl States l>order where smuggling and illicit distilliiitr could Ite carried on to an almost unlimited extent. 40580. In case of the enactment of a genei-iil prohihitory law, a law to ptohihit the manufacture, im|N)rtation and sale .if intoxicating liquoi-s for Iteverage puriMises, would you deem it right that itrewers and distillei-s should l)e ren)unerat)Kl for loss of plani and machinery i-endered useless .'- I think if Parliament pa.ssed a law of that kind t,ht'\ should renmnerate every man in the Itusiness for every dollar he had investeil in it. In other words the (Soveriiment should buy up all the breweries and distilleries and li(]u<'i- establishments, and the litpior should Ix' desti-ovi-d if of no value. 405HI. (lenerally sj»eaking, what is the effect upon a community of having a piu hibitory law that is flagrantly an and partially in Victoria. Then I went to Philadelphia, and from there I went tn Dakville, ()ntario. 40584. How long have you resided here f The last time since .lune W, 188(5. 40585. Then you have been in the city nearly five years .'- -Yes. I058(>. The license law has lM>en in force here ever since vou hav»! known tiic cit\. I ;up|>«>.se ■>. Ye 40587. Are you yourself favourable to the license system ? I am not. 40588. Are you opposee plactnl on its sale as well as on the suli- of any other jMjison. 4059;{, Do you think it wrong for people to use it as a Iteverage? — I tlo. 40594. Have you lived in any place where prohibitiale«l. 40598. In ciuse of the enactment of a general pnthibitory law, would you deem it right that brewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of plant ami machinery rendeiwl useless ? No : they went into the bvisiness with their eyes open. Probably the Uoveninient would buy the li(|Uor and keep it for sale for nuMlicina! and mechanical purp(t.ses. Ahtihiu L. Hklvka. 544 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 liy J{,i\ Or. Mrhnd : 40'>i>!t. Fidin your kiii>wlt'(l<;c uf Hiitisli (^ilumhia, litive you reason to liolir-vc ilicre is ii stroiif^ sentiment in favour of ])roliii>ition .' -I rio. I am in a posit ic»n to know some- tliiiij; alMail it from eorrespoiulenee, owini; to an otlice 1 occupy. I think tlie sentiment is jfrowinit i'a|)iurinii your resideiu-e in Victitria have yiai noticed any evil results from the n up. 40()0S. You believe, from your exjierience, that crime, tlisordersand all unlawfulness are directly or indirectly due to the liipior tratHc? Yes. 40609. I do not think the re|M)rt of your Chief of Police shows that clearly? I was speakinj; to a leadinj; physician the other day, and he .said that the lar;,'e percentaj.'e of deaths was due directly to drink. He is not a mend)er of any temjM^rance re as well as anywhere else. 40616. Where is it in force? — It is not in force anywhere. 40617. But you think it could be enforced here as well as elsewhere? — If tiiere was a proper government. 345 21 - J** Liquor Traffic — Uritisli Columbia. 4061s. Why is it not enforced elsewhere when it is on the statute-book ? — It is not strictly prohibition that is on tlie statute-book. 40619. Do you know of a)iy (sountry in the world where such prohibition as you wish i.s in operation? — No. 40620. Ho it would l)e an experiment if it were intixnluced here? — I do not know that you could call it an experiment. 40621. Would tiiere not be j^reat expense connected with that system? — There would not need to l)e any exi)ense. 40622. But it would be a new tliinj;? — Yes. Tlie only country where it exists is Turkey. 40623. That is tlie only illustration you can put forward. We have been told that in the Fiji Islands there is such a law. —I am not sure. 40624. The Rev. Dr. Stewart of Sackville, N. K, Profe.ssor of Theology in the University there, informed the Commission that such a law was in force in the Fiji Islands ? — Yes. 40625. You think such a law could be enforced, yet you have sUited that the Sunday lijvw was not enforced iiei-e ? — Yes. 40626. Why not? — For the rea.son 1 have stated : the law .seems to be vague. 40627. How is ti»e law vague? — All it says is that they shall not sell orer a bar; they can sell liquor at meals to people l)oardiiig in the hotels, and they are not called upon to close the door and put the lights out. 40628. 1 understood you to say that tlie prosecutor had to prove what kind of liquor was sold and drank before convictions could be secured ?— Yes. You liad to prove that alcoholic lic|Uor was sold. 40625). Would you prohibit the sale of ginger beei- on week days? — Ginger beer is not an alcoholic beverage. 40630. I understood you to say that difficulty arose in regard to distinguishing the kin(Js of licjuor sold, whether it was alcohc'ic liquor or ginger beer. If that difficulty l)revails in regard to drink on Sunday, would it not prevail in regard to week days under a prohibitory law ? — No, because liquor is detectible by the smell ; it could be dis- tinguisiied, and if liquor was prohibited bylaw, and there was a smell of liquor a rounfl, they would be liable to be caught, and prosecuted under the law. 40631. Does not that condition exist at present under the Sunday law ? — No. 40632. The method of detection would be l)y the smell and other liquors could not be used as gingei' l)eer? — Yes. 40633. Under tlie prohibitory law you desire; there should be the right of search of houses and persi» you rt't'cf to the last mectini; of tin- association .' \'es. 40()")8. Did the association, at that ineclin;;. express itself on this <|uestion .'^-Yes, ino.sfe empliatieally •IO'.t. Have you a copy of the report .' I c llic minutes to the Commission. 4U()()0. l>o you helifne in a i>roliiititory law 40661. Do you think it ri;iht in juiiuiple .' I do. 406n-_'. What do you think aUiut its practiculiility .' I have not any (piestion about, that, for the testimonv of the most distiiiijuished men in the I'nited States is to that effect. 4066."{. What is the effect of tlieii' testimony .' The effect is this : When wcjjo to ^liiine, the CioverFXor, the I'nited States senators .-md the con;iressmen, j^eiierally auree in the fact that the Maine law, the law for the prohiliition of the liipior tratlic, is as wi'll enforced, and some say better enforced, than any other criminal law on the statute book. That is enou;;h for me. 40<)t')l. You have not lived where there is local option.' I ha^c not. T have vi.sited Kansiu* several times : once when it wjus under license, and twice when it wa-. under jirohibition. 40ti(i."». What impression diends on whether the fellow get-- caught or not. It is demorali/.ing to the fellow who violates the law and to the people who are apprehended. 40670. What is the effect on the community of tlio.se violations liy " leggers " and othei' jiarties? — It seemed t^) be the inipi'e.ssion of people with whom T conversed in Emporia that while the law was violated, it was violated in such a way that it jiracti cally deprived the men who violated it of any standing in the conununity. 40671. What is your opinion oi the law : is it an educator? — I have always regard ed it as an educator. 40()72. Do you think a law against a thing admittedly wrong educates the jieople against that wrong thing ? — T think so. 40673. Even when the law is violated ? — I think so. 40674. In the event of a general prohibitory law being jtassed, do y;)U think it would be proper to coiupen.sate the brewers and distillers for the loss they sustained ' — I should like to say concern'"^ this matter that I am biased in my opinion by the decision of the Supreme Cnl(l In- .s(|uarutl'('riiiji cniailfrl liy their husiness, the woild will then he entirely willing; to tuin round anil pay what little halame is in theif favour. KJfl77. You think tliei'c are two sides to the ijuestion ' I think --o. liji .liiiliji' }[(' Ihniiihl : lOtlTf*. You are a eiti/.en of the I'nited States ( Yes. IOfi79. You hii\t' resided in Canada for a period of two weeks ]- Y'es. lUtiSO. You think you woidd like to see a law in force here such as i> in force in Maine : is that the kind of law you want .'-That, of course, would coNcr a ixreat nianv special features which are local. tOtiHl. Are there no other features ?- I should like toha\f a law restin;,' on the liroad liasis of the prohibition of the litpior tratlic. 40lt8l.'. What is there in the. Maine law that is not .satisfactory to you .' I do not think I could enter into details. I do not know that I could say that I am in favoiii'of the Maine law, hecause there may lie .some local features. J()i)f<.'$. You rest«'d your statement in favnur of prohiliition cm the fact that the Maine law was a complete success? — \'es. lt)6S|. Do you know tliJit in Maine a man may have all the liipioi' he wants in his house and that he may .ifive it to his friendt" '. Yes, of course there are details. KKiS."), That is something; more than detail. Are you aware that under the .Maine law a man may hrin;; in li(|Uor, hut he nuist not "luy it in the State, that he may keep his cellar well stocked and ^tive li(|Uor to his fi'ieiids '. I do not know : I think that is a local feature of the law. lOtiHtj. Canyon tell me of any country in the world that has such a pi'ohiliitory law ? -I think so. 40tlS7. Please state the country .'- I think the main featuies of the law arc em- bodied in the Kansas, Iowa, or in the Maine laws, and those would fairly represent the presi'nt demand of the people for prohibition. 40tiSS. Y'ou will take the Kan.sas oi' the Iowa or the Maine law as rcpifseniini,' th(^ present ih-mand of those in favour of prohibition .'I think so. J(.)r)f',t."t. Yoti did not your.self see this tin pan business to which yuu iia\c referred ] - No, but I heard it from teslimonv that was lioini,' on aliout the law. n 549 11 Liquor Traffic — IJritisli Coluinbia. I ? C. I)ELLSMITH,ot' Vifioria, jounmlist.oii lifinv'tluly swi mm, tlt'|Hisndiv8 follows : — //(/ Jiniijfi Mi'lhnuihl : 4061)1. How loMjj; liiivf you resided in X'icloii.i .' A t(m|iU' of years. 406!tr). With wimt juiixt are you conni't'tfd '. I am sit jn'f.seiit comit'i-tcd with tiw Cl'Iftlllxf. 40<>!((). Have yoti resided any where else in llie country .' Yes, in Toronto and in Kan>l|)s. 40G1)7. Was tiiei-e a lieense law in foi'ee in Kaniloojis? Yes. 40698. Was it well observed there .' Yes. 4069!). Do you know whether Kaniloops was used as a distributing point forli(|Uor sent to the Nortli-we.st Territories,' Yes, I think it «as. ! have often heard .so. 40700. Hav<^ you knowledj^e of it personally .' No; but I have often heard it stated. 40701. Taking this country as you iiavi- seen it, do you tind the people to Iw sober and law-abidin;; p.oople '. \ do eertainiy. 407O'J. How do they eoniparo with othei- eoniniunities in wiiieh you have lived ? They eoinpare most favourid)ly. What struck me when I last came to liritisli C'olund>in was the absenc«! of restriction and the repuifnance tif the people to anything; in the shape of prohibition. A\'hen I first came to Kaniloops th(> Sunday closing law was in operation, and Ix'fore that time saloons lia. *)r for their li(|Uor in store for reel iticat ion jiurfxises .' C'ertairdv not. 407I(). Would you have a limit tixed durin;; which they should he allowed to s«>|I thelii|U(ir/ C'ertaitdy not ; if the trade is declared illegal, it shoidd he d imposed of at once. yy.// h'rr. Dr. McLpoil: 40717. Speakinj^ in re>j[ard to ojiiuin sniu^';;ling, would it he well to jirense the opium triule, as parties will sinu<;i;le it .'—-There is already a license attached to ji and a great revenue is derived from opium. 4071H. Hut there is sniu;:j.'liii;; fjoin^ on .' Yes. 40719. For profit of course,' A'es. T reiK-at that I do not helieve in Sunday closin<; : it is a fane wherever it is tried. 407*20. S|)eakinf; of the people of KandI(. .Mcl.Kon. .rii)(;K McDnN Al.l). iin»peninj,'fho])rtHt'e(liiiys. said : lliir ^Lfijcsty's C'nminissioii under tlieOreat Seal i»t' (..'aiiiidii wa.s rt-fid iit Winiiipfj;, at thf njioiiiiii; <>t' llii' sittini; tht'iv, and the n-adiiifj will, thiMoforc, he dispensed witli uii iliis (iicasinn. \\t' will at once juueeed to exannne witnesses. SAMUEL l)|{i\l\E, of Nanainio, ShefiH' of tlic Itailiwiik of Nanainio, on liein;,' duly sworn, deposed as follows : /ti/ Judge McDotuild : ■10727. How long have you been Sheriff ,' Ht'tween seven and eif{ht years. 407-8. Are you apjM>inted hy the Provincial (lovernnient f \'es. 407'2'J. How lonj; have you resided in the Province of j'.ritish C'olunihia? A little over tifty years. 107.'^0. Did you come here from one of the other pro\ inces / I canre from California here, hut I am an Kn law is soint'tliiii^' that I am not vciy well a<'(iu)iiiit(>(l with, •ludgin^; the (lut'stion of |ii-oiiiliit ion, the o|iinioii I <-nt*>i tuiii alN>ut it is from tliit results I liaM* sct-n from the mhIi- of lii|iior. K)7t"_'. Ai'f you y<»iirs('lf favoiii'alilt' to prohiltition ^ I cannot say I am. That is tlif reason I am not always in liarmony with my surroun{liiij,', as ihere are such <,'ood facilities foi' it. This is so much the case that it would be impossiblt^ to carry out the law. 4074iH. Have you many bays and iidets .' The coast is full of small liays and har- bours especially on the Island. 40749. Then you think smugi^linj,' would {)revail extensively ? Yes. 407")0. I)o you know whether illicit stills art; c.irricd on throu^diout the province ; 1 do not. That is one of the tliin<;s we hear very little about in this pi'ovince. K)7")l. Takinj; this city, are there many jilaces licensed to sell liipior? 'I'here are several places. 407")-. Have you ever been in Cassiar .' Yt^s. 1 was there two seasons. 407>").1. Have you \>een in Alaska '. — Yes ; you j,'o up throii;;h jiait of Alaska to get to Ca.ssiar. The road passes through part of the Alaskan coast and you uo back to British territory in order to reach that district. 40754. Do you know any of the towns in Alaska or have you \isited any of them .' — I have been at Sitka and Fort Wrangell. 407")5. We have been told that there is a prohibitory law in force then'. Can you sav whether that law is carried out .' When 1 was in the country it was under what was called martial law, and the, • was a strong feelingof tcuior of martial law among the people there. Everything was (|uiet and orderly, and you simply traxelled ajon^r with- out In-ing nuilested by aiiylMxly. 407")(). Then yd to this little town, in this way, that when .saloons were op<'n on Sunday .sailors frnm the ships came ashore ' ■' ' ' trouble arose, for the sailors libertv being restricted .so much on dtl le mil i-anie streets when people weie going School, but since the Closin ship-lxiard he will indulge more than other men on shore. There were men tlrunk in the r to church and when the children were going to Sunday Act has been introduced we have been benefited in this way and Sunday is kept more orderly. 40760. You have .said that there is not a majority of people in favour of jiroliibi- tion, but that there is a majority in favour of Sunday closing ? — I think so. ''- 1 '^ rt* 553 Liquor Tnittlc— Uritish Columbia. •O'til. You think tlmt ih lepicsi'iitiitivo of tli« jifoplc'.s HtMitiintMit / Yt's, ilmt thu siiliHuis sliiiiilil Im- cloNcd III) Sumlay. And tlu-y will Ht-c tliiit ir is olmnl. 4071)1.'. Tlicii tilt' pcopli' support, that view ! Yes. K)7<1:J. Do you know wliiit pulilic opinion is in i'f>{iiiil lo tlic nuinlx'!' of liccrisj'.s isMuoil in tlif city .' I do not. 4t)7(>1. Fn SOUK' places wt' t"ouii lulvocttting a iwluction in tlic nuniltct of licenses issueil to a veiy small nuinlMT ; others were not in favour of that I We are Xettiiin hack to tlu" same point or pretty near to it where we were just now. Speaking for myself, I do not fall in line with that view. K)7G">. Are thei-o places lit'ensed in Nanaimo where lii|Uor is sold hut Weds are not provideij for tra\»)lleis or meals supplied I I do not know any hotel ot that kind in the town. I su|>pose you can ^el a ImhI almost anywhere, liut I have never known fif such places as you mean. 4U7(j(). Are they almost all liotels ? I suppose there is a class of hotels in the lower part of the town which will U^t bedrooms and accomnuMlation for traxellers. As re^jards the retail ti-ade, certain conditions have to lie complied with hefoi'e licenses are ;{raiited. 4<)7t>7. Iti case of the enactment: of a <,'eneral ))i()hil)itoi'y law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of into.\icatin<; l)e\eraj,'cs, would you deem it ri;(ht that brewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of machinery and plant ' I shouhl certainly say .so, because they have now certain vested rights. They have invested their money in tlni.se establishments and year after year have been granted licenses. 40708. It has iK'cn stated tiiat tijose jieople have been reipiii'ed law and by de]>artmental regulations to put in certain macliinery from time to time a also change thill machinery, and they are morco\er reipiired by law to keep their litpmr in stock for I wo years for |)urpo.scs of I'cctiticalion. l)oy(»u think that all those matters should be taken into account in enacting any such legislation as is suggested ? That is one of the things 1 am not able to speak of. 407ft'.>. You have merely cxpressetl your opinion that in principle it would bo right to make some compen.sation ? —Yes. /{y Rev. Dr. Mr Lead : 40770. Have you any rea.sou to believe that there is li(|uor .sold by others than lieenseil vendors? — I have no rea.son to lielievt; it, none whatever. 40771. ICave you rea.son to belitvo that the licensees sell during proliibited hours? No. If they did T would consider it my duty to inform the constable, and he would go and haul the parties up. I have known one or two cases where there have been violations of the law, but very few of them since the new Sumhiy Closing Act wa.-t passed. 40771.'. \'ou do not olWcially have anything to do with cases of drunkenness? — No. 1 am a provincial constable and as such would \h'. expected to assist in maintaining g(MKl order. 40773. But it is not, properly speaking, your duty? -I am Sheriff", and I am also a provincial constable. 40774. Is ther«' much drunkenness in the town ?- I do not think there is a great deal. ( )n Saturday evenings you will find stime more or le.ss drunk, but it must be remembered that this is a mi.ved community, compo.sed of a great many different classes of jieople. 40775. How is it alH>ut pay day : are thei'li(>v(t ill a inoii(i|N)ly ? No, tlici*> Mlmiild Im> a liciMisc, miil n gtXMl iiti«>, iilld if II lioUHit \i()liitt'(l tilt- law it shmllil lie i'IiihciI. I077!*. .VsSliciill', liiivt' you tddii with liicsiiidnM climes that imiiii. surii as iiiiinl»>r, l)iir>{liiry, ct*'. Have you iiiui'li of tliat fi'iinc in yoiii- liailiwick .' Wi- luivi> vciv littlf of that chiKS of criini' in thf (listrict, liiit at prcNt-iit w»i mccih to iii> sutVt'iin;; from oiii* or two cast'H. M)7H(). Has<' you iiotioMl (hiring thtt years of youiolUciiil ihilics wlictlu'raiiv |iiii|Hir- tioii itiii;; Indians from getting; any li<|Uor at all. Once in a while wc pick u|i adiunken Indian and ini|nii» where h(! irot liijuor, and he will point out th(> man who supplied it : tiien the party is arrested and suWject to a tine of ^"lO or as lii^^h as ^MUt), and in addition six months' im- priHonment. 407lS-t. Have you had many siu h cases f There are always some of these \endors in the jail. 4078;"). ])o you know if there are many cases of sale to Indians .' I should imagine there w(>re hundreds. T have a ;;ood deal to do with Indians. .\n Indian is always a pnstty d(H'ent fellow when he issolier, as most of them are, hut when they;,'ei drunk they Hi'om to lose all respect for the rij;litsof any other party in their immediate nei<.di)ioui'hiHMl, ni il they aro ca]ia))lu of doini; thinj^s when drunk that they would never do when soU-r. 40"H(i. Are they (piiet and sohei' j,'encrally /--Yes, they arc all ii;;lil as Ion;; as they are sober. Jii/ Jud(/e McDonnld : 40787. In cases of sale of liipior to Indians, what class of people make the sales .' — Very low fellows. 40788. They are not licen.sed dealers, I suppose .' .No. I am \ery ulad you men- tioned that point. In a number of ca.sesthey are men from the ships and ari- awy ilown in the social scale, and the liipior is sufiplied by men for the sake of money. When any- thin;; of that kind occurs it is always doiu- by a fellow who is ilown about as far as he can p't ; however, it is very seldom done. ANDREW HASLEM, of Nanaimo. snw-mill owner, on lirinj.' duly sworn, deposed as follows : — Jiy Judge. McDonald : 40789. Do you occupy any public po.sition i — I am Mayor of this city. 40790. How Ion;; have you resided here? — Alxiut elt^ven veal's. 40791. How Ion;; have y.)U been in British Columbia .' — Aliout seventeen years. 40792. Where did you reside before you came to Nanaimo ? — In New Westminster. 4079;{. That is the mainland ?— Yes. 40794. Did you come here from one of the other provinces .' -I came here from New Brunswick, but I am an Irishman by birth ; I came herefrom Albert, Kin;r"s ('(tunty. 4079."). Since you came here has a license law always been in force (Yes. 40790. How long have you been Mayor? Since 1st .laiuiary last. 40797. Have you found this country to be orderly and law-abidinj; / I think so, espticially considering that it is a minini? coiiimunity and there are a great many vessels 555 Liquor Traffic — Hritisii Coluinbiji. (•••miiii; and !; law 1 — I am chairman of the ISoard of l,icensinjj; Commissioners. 4"t. Are they all hotels.' The retail ])!aces all have hars. There are very few of them that i)retend totfi\i' meals, although they will do so if ri'ipiired. 40f<()t). Under the terms of the license are they recpiired to ;,'ive meal.s ? - Yes, that is the undcrstandinj;. 4()S07. How many wholesale licenses arc there.' — Tlii-rc is otdy oiu'. 40S0N. Have you reason to lielieve there is any unlicensed sale in this city? — I liave not. 408()!l. So far as your experience yoe-;, is the license law well ohserved hy tho licensees.'- I think .so. lOSld. 1 mean as regards Sunday sale and everythiui; of that kind. Y\'e oecii- sionally hear complaints, hut when you comi' to tiaccout the complaints it is very ditUeult to say that infraction of the law has taken place. I think that the present licen.se law recjuires a little ameialment. lOSll. Kindly state to the (."ommission in what way you wish the law amendt'd, arid ifive any information that occurs to you on the subject .' While the Sund.iy law prohibits the sale of licpior on Sunday, it does not prohibit people sittint' |)niliil)itit>u .' -No, I raiiiiot miv iIijm I am. IUSl'I. Do you tliiiik tlifi'c is as st'oii-,' a sciitiiMfiit in t'a\ our ot' total |iriiliil)iiioii as tlnTt' is ill favour ot the Sunday closing; law? No, I do not iliiid< then- is. KISlT). TIk^ Sunday closinj,' law connufiuis itsrll" to tlii' ^'rratrr' portion ot' tli<' |)i>o|ilc ,' — Yi's, I tliinlv .so. 40)^li(i. Have you had any i-xiicricncc in a country where |iroliiliit ic>n was in t'orci" .' - -I may say that I liavo hccn in M;iinc, hut not. lonu cnoiii;!i to imihIiIc nic to form an opinion as to the working,' of the law there. I()Sl'7. Ill case of the eiiactineni of a ;.'eiieral prohihilorv law, a law to proiiihit the uiaiiufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic lii|Uors for Ijevcra^'e pur|)oses. do voii think it rifjlit that, hrewers and distillei-s should receive conipeiisatioii for their jilaiii and machinery that would lie rendered useless I -Yes, f think so. Tor thin' estalilished the Itusincss with the consent of the law, and if thosn interests are prohihited, I think thi' parties shouhi he com|)ensated. lUSJM. llaM' you any facilities pro\ideiUppose? -Yes. I helieve it has. I()S.'<"|. llase you r'-a.son lo l>elic\e that the licensees oliserve that feature of the law, or do they sell more or less because of the little defect in the law of which \ou have spoken? I do no*, wish to lie uiiderstooil as indicat iiij; that they tak(.' advanta;,'e of that, hut 1 am speakin;' of the law from an ollicial point of view, in ca.se of the law (x-inji violated it is di'Mcult ii> secure conviction owinj; to this dilliculty. ■U)8;j(i. I'^roni yoiT ohservatioii, do you think there is more or less drinkin;; now than there was forniorly, when you came here lirst? I •hink iliere is less in proportion til the |io])ulatioii. 4US.'{7. To what do you attrihtite that chanu;e !- 1 think there is a <,'rowini,' senti- ment in fa\nu'' of prohibition and temperance, and that is ;,)i]iMreiit all o\ er t he pid\ iiice. ■lUS.'JS. Do you think it svould be well in Nanainio to lia\ce\cn fewer licenses than you have now, the number beiii;; llJS : does that include tli ■ wlmlesale lieenses '/--No ; thero are L*M retail. 40Ht'ii(. Diiyou think it would be well to have fewer liicnses in this city?- I think the fewer licenses there are, the less driiikinji there is. 10S40. Twenty two licences would be e(|ual to one bcense for every I'L'') of the pojiulation, which would be ample to satisfy the desires of the people ? You must bear in mind tluit the immediate districts are thickly pojiulated and that the people do most of tiieir business here. 40841. Are there licenses in those districts? — Very^ tew ; there are one or two houses. lOSl-J. Most of the trade is done here ? Yes. 4084.'{. You have e.vpressed yourself in favour of the principle of prohibition, if such a law could be enforced ; but you think there would be dilliculty in regard to its enforcement. Do you think prohibition would still further lessen the amount of drinking if it did not prohibit it entirely ? — J think it would. 557 i: Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. SAMUEL GOFF, of Naiiiiiiiio, on being duly .sworn, deposed as follows : — Jiy Judge McDonald : 40H44. Do you liold any official position ? — Yes, I am Clerk of tlie City. 40845. How long have you resi(l(^d in Xanaimo ? — About ;36 years. 40H4fi. How long have you resided in this province ? — All that time. 40847. Did you come here from England / — ^Yes. 4084H. How long have you been City Clerk I — Twelve years. 40<^4'J. Are you secretary of the Licensing Board ? — Yes. 40850. Do you act as clerk of the Police Court ?— No. • 40851. The Mayor has told us that there are 'I'l retail licensed places in the city and one wholesaled — I think there are 21 retail and 2 wholesale. 40852. Can you tell us the fee paid for a wholesale license? — ^100 a year. 40853. And for a retail license ? — !?300 a year. 40854. Do the licensees have to pay any additional sum to the province ? — I do not think so. 40855. Of whom is the Licensing Board composed ? — That difiers with the regula- tions provided for in the Act. Mow it, is composed of the Mayor, two J ustices of the Peace, one alderman and the Police Magistrate. 4085(5. Then the Board is composed of five members? — Yes. 40857. Who selects the Justices of the Peace? — The municipal council. 40858. The Board has power to grant licen.ses to applicants on their confornnng to the condition'i of the law, I suppose? — Ye.s. 40859. You have a class of people whoha-iing had licenses before the new Act came into operation, merely pay their fees and hold a. license during good behaviour ? — Yes. 40860. Have you had any case in which an old licensee has forfeited his license owing to bad conduct ? — No. 408(51. The law came into force before your term commenced? — Yes. The license law as it is now is much better than it was .some time ago. 40862. The Sunday closing feature is a new one, I Iwlieve I Yes. 40863. Do you find that to be a move in the right direction? — Yes. I believe it decreased drinking on Sunday. 408G4. The Mayor has suggested that it would l)e as well to have the bars closed as well as sales prohilnted. What is your opinion in regard to that ? — It is the only way of making the law eti'ective. 40865. TluMi you would have the bar-n»oni slmt up entirely ? — Ye.s. 40866. And not permit it to become .i geheral resort on Sunday ? — No. 40867. Are you favoural)le to license or to a prohibitory law? — I am a prohi- bitionist. 40868. In sentiment ?— Yes. 4086!). Are you ojtposed to a license law ? — I prefer a license law to free traffic. 40870. Failing j)rohibition, do you look upon license as a necessary evil ! — T think it is the next best thing to prohibition. 40871. Judging fioni your exjierience do you think a general prohibitory law could be enforced? — I think it could be enforcwl as well i.s any other law. 40872. Do you mean any other law that might l>e passeil by the Legislature' — ■ Yes ; all laws ai'e violated, though not all to the same extent. 40873. Can you suggest to the Ct)mmission means of enforcement that would make a piohibitory law possible to be carried out? — I could not say that I have any such suggestion to oflFer. 40874. Have you considered the subject from that point of view ?_Yes. 40875. You would expect that any law passed by the Legislature would Ik* enforced 1 — Yes ; I believe the people are sufficiently law-abiding to fall in with that view. 40876. Have you lived in any country where a prohibitory law was in force? — No. 40877. Do you think there would be smuggling in tlie event of the adoption of a prohibitory law ? — There might be a little of it, if they hjul the liquor near. Samuel Goff. 558 67 Victoria Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 40878. Would you favour a law that would prohibit tlic manufacture, iiiijiortation and sale of alcoholic liijuors for beverage purposes J — Yes, and tiie law would he no "ood unless it went that far. 40879. Can you name such a country where there is a law like that in force? I can not say that I can. i have heai'd of places where tiiey have pi'oliii)ition. 40880. Name them ? — Prince Edward Island and parts of the United States, such as Kansas. ' 40881. The law in Prince Edward Island counties is what is called the Scott \ct ? —Yes. 40882. There are, of course, prohibitory clauses in the piTs"nt license law, i)ut all those laws allow a man to import li(|Uor for his own use and give it awav to his friends. Is that the kind of a law you tlesire .' — No. 4088.'J. You would have prohil)ition that would prohibit liquor from comin" in l —Yes. 40884. Will you please name any country where such a law is in force? I could not tell you. 40885. It has been stated to the Commission that there is such a law in the Fiji Islands. Have you any knowledge in regard to that matter 'I — ^No. 40880. In case of thc^ enactment of a general ])rohibitorv law, doyou think it would be right to compensate brewers for their plant and machinery rendereil useless? For their actual loss perhaps. Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : 40887. Has drunkenness increased oi- decreased in Nanainio during your recollec- tion ?— I think in proj>ortion to the population it is less now than it was in former years. 40888. Is thei'e much ailvocacy of temperance in this province ? — Theie is a little work going on all the time. 4088!». By the churches ?— Yes, and l)y the temperance societies. 40890. \)n they accom])lisli much ? — 1 think sd. 40891. Do you attribute the change in the drinking huijiis of tlie people to the efforts of the churches and temperance societies ?- -Yes. 40892. Do you think the work carried on b}- these societies has brought /ibout the changes in the license .system whicii you think have made the law so much better than it was previously .' — Petitions have been sent to the Legislature asking for a change and for further improvements in the law, ami they have Ijeen successful to that extent. 4089;}. You have spoken alxnit the present license system being pi'Ciferable to ilio former one. What is the chief difference between the old one anil the one now in existence? — The jiresent law reiiuii-es that certain conditions shall lie fultillcd bv the applicant and that consent of two-thirds of the lot owners and tlicir wives in the neighbourliood where the licenseil ])l;ice is to Ite ioca'cd shall be obtained. 408it4. J)o the applicants always do that?— Not always. 4089"). Do they receive licenses? — No. 40890. Ihit those who have licenses, the 2."1 places in Nanainio, did secure the necessary signatures? — Yes, those tiiat have l)ecn granted since the new law came in three years ago; 10 licenses were graiiti'd liefore that. 40S'J7. Then those Itido not come uncler the ojieralioii r)f the license law ] — Not to till' same ('Xtent as those licensed afterwards do. 40898. Then there aio live new licensees who lia\f had to comply with those regulations ? — Yes. 40899. Supposing " A " aiijilies foi' a liceiis*! and gets the necessary signatures of two-thirds of the lot owners and tlieii' wives, and " M" also wants a license to sell as well as " C " and " D ": could " B, ' " C '' and " D's" petitions Ix- signed by tiie same two- thirds who signed " A's' petition for a license in the same block I That would be for the Board to decide. 40900. Has any such case arisen ? — No. 40901. Does evei-y applicant have to get a fresh set of signatures to his petition ? — Yes. m ir 1 1 M ! I J m liiquor Traffic — liritish (Miimbia. I0y0"_'. May they havo t lit' sjiiiu' iieojilc mi tlioir jiftiticuis iis tlit-y liad l)et'orc .' — There is nothin;; to prevent it. lO'JO^t. Si» any one i-ould lie in tlie saints Moi-k and have a license it' they yot two- thirds of the lot owners and their wives to sitjn tin; petition? — Yes. lOitOl. As to the 1() licensees who have licenses in perpetuity simply liecmisc thev happened to make application for a license hefore the present law came in, I understand they have not to make application to the Board for- renewal of license? — That has been .since a year a<;o. The lice n. sees who havi- heen granted licenses since then have to niiike ap[)licalion every six months for renewal. . lUi)U."). Ha\t' those Kl men presented jtetitions si;;ned liy two-thirds uld be greater l)eneHts ? — Y'es. .S.\MUEL GOFF. 560 as 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 i JOSEPH PLANTA, Police Magistrate of Nanaiiuo, un being duly sworn, ileposed as follows : — Bi/ Judge McDonald : 40928. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — About 20 years. 40!)2l). How long have you lived in Nanaimo? — About 17 years. 1 am also a Jus- tice of the Peace and Stipendiary Magistrate in and for Vancouver Island. 40M0. Did you come here from one of the other provinces ? — No. 401131. What countryman are you ? — I am Welsh. 40932. iiave you had any experience in a prohibitory country / — None wluilever. 40933. Has there always been a licen.se law since j'ou came here ? — Yes. 40934. Are you appointed Police Magistrate by the Provincial Government .' — By the Municipal Government. 4093.J. By what authority' are you appointed a Justice of the Peace and Stipen- diary Magistrate for the Island? -By the Provincial Government. 4093(). How long have you been Police Magistrate? — Two or three years. 40937. Are cases of infringement of the license law brought before you tor tiial? —Yes. 4093tS. Cases of men selling during prohibited hours? — Yes. 40939. Cases oi people selling without a license ? — Yes. 40940. How does the license law work here according to youi- experience : arc its provisions well observed ? — I think so. 40941. Have you many cases of infringemeut of the license law brought before you ? — Very few ; latterly there have been sonic cases of infringement of the Sumlay Closing Act, although in each instance there has been conviction. ■'•0942. Have there been many such cjises? — [ think about si,\ altogether. 40943. Ft has been suggested that the law should be amended so as to require bar- rooms to close on the Sabbath ? — Yes, it would only be fair if that was done. I supjiose all the licensees really wish to observe tht; law, but they iiave no opportunity, ius at the present time customers havj' a right to come in. 40944. Have you many cases of unlicensed sale brought before you : I refer to par- ties selling without license as reijuired l)y law ! - 1 think tiiere have been c.-ises. Two occurred three years ago. 40945. You have h;id none recently ?--No. F was speaking only a short time ago to the County Court Judge who, with myself, is a Stipendiary Magistrate, and it appears that there were cjuite a number of cases bi-ought Ijefore him a short time ago ; altliough it was in the district, it was outside the city that they occurred. The parties were dealt with in every ease and were fined. 40946. Were the sales matle to travellers ? — No, there were no licenses granted in the ilistrict. 40947. How many cases were there ? — There was ipiite a run at that time. 40948. How long ago was it ? — I think it was al>out 3[ay last year. 40949. So far as the city is concerned, have you had many ca.ses ? — No. 40930. Are you able to say from your experience whetlier it would be in the public interest to have the nuniber of licenses still further reduced and in this way have fewer licensed houses / — I think the number at the present time is at its extreme limit, unless there should be a first-class hotel built. 40951. You think the present number is sufficient to satisfy the r.eeds of the com- munity ? — Yes. 40952. Do you think there are more licensed houses than are needed? — F am the party who granted those licenses, and I could not answer that question. 40953. We are told that under the law there are a number of people who do not come under the control hi the Board so long as they conduct their liou.ses properly, and they are only reijuired to attend and pay their license fees once a year 1 — Yes, they are all licensed in that way, with one exception. 40954. While the men who hold the old licenses conduct themselves properly t he Licensing Board has no discretion in renewing the license ? — No, not unless some charge 861 21—36** II }l i ■ Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. is laid against them. 1 may say liere as supplementing my answer, that tlie liotel and sal(M>n-keepers are a very respectab' ehiss here. They arc men of g(Kxl moral ion- duct and integrity and are of a wortl.y class. I think we may attrihute very much the law-abiding character of the community to tlicir high positibn and standing, tor they are men aliove all smallness. 40955. Y. In other cities we found that there are men who are brought up frequently and sentenceil and sent to jail and then c(jme up again and keep light on doing so. From your expei'ience, do you think it would be lietter to send those men to inebriate asylums with a view to their reformation? — 1 thank your Honour for that suggestion. 1 have often thought it seemed harsh to continue to punish men in that way and I think there is a lack of justice about it. It would be Iwtter to subject such drunkards to confine- ment for a certain j)eriod in an inebriate asylum. By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 4097t;. Speaking of the treatment of inebriates, would you make that a public charge? — Yes, in cases where parties were unable to pay themselves ; otherwise it should not be made a public expense. 40977. You would do so in cases where the men were not able to pay, in order to relieve their families? — Yes. 40978. I suppose you have the police court records I — We occupy a singular posi- tion here altogether. Although I am a Pt)lice Magistrate and appointed by the city, yet we are not separated from the provincial authorities, but are entirely connected with them. So long as the (Government remains as it is to-ilay, they keep part of the tine ami they keep the records too. 40979. Have you made a return from your records? — Yes, a return has been made. 40980. Did your record of drunkenness showan increa.se or decrease with old returns ? — I think they showed an increa,se in proportion to the increase in po}iulation that has taken place. A man comes in fi'om Vancouver and the first thing he does is to go and get drunk. He brings perhaps §-.50 with him, and pays 50 cents for bed and breakfast, and spends the rest in liquor. 40981. Have you licensed places which sell to such a man after he is drunk?— Not after he has got drunk. 40982. Such a man you say spends $2 out of $2.50 in drink : have you licensed places which sell to such men.- — I do not know. I suppose if a man insists on getting drunk he will do so and get the drink. If he was drunk, of course he could not get it. 40983. I had obtained the idea from your statements that your licensed men were such honourable men ? —They include a large number of men of the highest integrity and they are a very high class of men. 401»34. Is there any way in which we could get a transcript of your records? — I should like to say that we are very l)usy people here, and as I only got your intimation to be here at a late hour I had to give up another appointment in ordei' to be present. However I can supply a copy of the record. 40985. I think you said about three-fourths of the cases coming before you were those of drunkenness? — Cases arising indirectly or directly from the use of alcoholic liquors. 40986. Have you observed whether crime of one kind or another has diminished in Nanaimo during your term of office ?— I have been on the Bench as Justice for the hust 16 years, and so long as we had no floating population (just now the policy seems to be to employ oidy married men rather than single men) crime was quite nominal. 40987. Have you noticed an incroa.se ?— Not according to the population. The census shows that our population has increased until it now numbers about 4,000. 40988. H.as there been less crime since the Sunday closing Act ? — Yes, certainly ; there has been a great reduction in Sunday morning drinking. 40989. Was that drinking done by residents here? — By single men who were residents, but not by men with families. 21— 36i** 663 'f Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 40990. Speaking about licenses : does a license attach to the premises rathei- than to the individual t — There has been a great deal of disputing in regard to transfers, but we have been fortunate in having gocKl men come forward. Looking over the names, I find the men as a rule are a very respectable class and quite trustworthy. 40991. Supposing a man has a license, does that license in any way represent his district ? — It represents the section. f 40992. Can he transfer it to another ? — Yes, with the consent of the Licensing Board. 40993. If the building is destroyed, does the license attach to the freehold ? — That has been the case under the law, but the Board has the power to decide. 40994. I have been recjuested to ask this question: did the men ""ho obtained licenses recently get them because they secured two-thirds of the names of the lot owners and their wives in the neighbourhood ? — I should like to answer that question in this way, that if a man possesses a license by right of the Board granting it, whether rightly so or not, it rests with members of the community to object to the Board granting it. 40995. Has the Board discretion in regard to granting licenses 'i — I think the Boai-d has discretion only when the conditions have been fullilled. Whether it has that discretion or not, it assumes it and grants licenses ; and what are you going to do about it ? 40996. Supposing membeis of the community did object, would the Board still grant it ? — I do not know, I do not think so. 40997. The Board stands between the licensee and the people 1— Yes. 40998. As a sort of buflfer ?— Yes. 40999. Can the Board refuse to grant a license when the conditions have been complied with 1 — Yes, they can refuse. 41000. But they cannot grant a license when the conditions have not been fulfilled ? — That is a matter of discretion. 41001. Does it strike you that those provisions inserted in the license law have been fruitless ? — I never saw an Act of Parliament through which you could not drive a coach and six. The license law is one that requires renewing every six years. 41002. From your residence and observation, can you say what eflPect the licjuor trade in Nanaimo has on the various interests of the community ? — I think it would be very much better if there were no licensed places at all ; but considering the number of places, I do not think there has been an amount of evil above the average. There is always a certain amount of evil in this world, and no doubt there have been cases here, but not more than in other communities. 41003. From your observation, is a considerable amount of the evil due indirectly or directly to the use of liquor ? — I do not look upon it as being due to the trade, but to the excessive use of liquor. By Judge McDonald : 41004. When a man has more than 30 rooms do we correctly understand that he may go to the Board and have his license renewed, without having the required number of signatures 1 — Yes. 41005. And a man with less than 30 bed-rooms has to have the signatures? — Yes. 41006. Then he must have the proper number of signatures of lot owners and their wives : or can the Board decide ? — Yes, it is a question for the Board. By Rev. Br. McLeod : • 41007. How many of the present number of licensees have handed in petitions signed by the lot owners and wives ? — I think only three or four altogether. as Joseph Planta. 664 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 THOMAS O'CONNOR, Chief Constable of Niirniiino, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — liy Judye McDonnId : 41008. By whom are you appointed? — By the Municipal Council. 41009. How long have you held your piesent othce? — Going on eigiit years. 41010. How long have you resided in Nanainio.'— I have been hero in the vicinity of thirteen years. 41011. How long have you been in British Cohunbia? — All alnjut that time. 41012. IJid you come here from one of the other provinces? — No, I came here from the United States. 410i.1. Wiiat is the strength of the police forc(> in Nanaimo?— Only two regular city officer.s, myself and one other at the present time ; that is since last July. -There is a jailer and assistant jailer. 41014. How many provincial otlicers are hen two convict guards and a constable. 41015. Those are provincial otlicers? —Yes. ^ 41016. Who is in command of them? — ^\'m. Stewart. 41017. Are you called upon to make many arrests in Nanaimo during a year? — Tlie number of arrests varies. 41018. Taking the city as a whole and taking the character of the population, do you find this to be an orderly city? — T do. 41019. We have been told that you have a population including .seafaring men and miners and people of diflFerent nations?— Yes, we have a large floating population foreign to the city. 41020. Have those provincial otlicials anything to do with the enforcement of the city regulations 1 — No. 41021. So you and your brother officer attend to tho-se matters?— Ye.s. 41022. Are cases of persons arrested by you all tried before the Police Magistrate? — All cases for the city and district are tried by him. 41023. Have you lived in any prohibition country? — ^No, I have not. By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 41024. Have cases of drunkenness iiicrea.sed or decreased here, Ix'aring in mind the increased population? -Taking the incri'a.se of population and comparing the number with a similar period during the past few years, I could not say that the number has increased very much, but I tiiink it has increased a little. 41025. Then you think it has increased a little more than the population? — Yes. 41026. Have you many arrests for other offences than di'unkenness, offences such iis disoixlerly conduct, assaults, petty thefts and the like ? —The principal arrests we have here are for drunkenness, drunk and incapable, and drunk and disorderly. 41027. About how many of such ca.ses have you during the month? — Some months we have very few; they might Ije limited to 25 or .'iO other months and even I'un some- times to 50 and 60. We .sometimes go a full week and do not have a single case. 41028. Do those cases average 40 during a month ?- -No, they do not. Tht! police records will show they do not. 41029. Do you keep a regular record of arrests? — There is a rr-gular record kept by the chief otficer of the provincial police. There are not 40 cases a month belonging to the municipality. Cases come here from Comox and as far dosvn as Cowichan and out to Wellington ; some of these cases from Wellington come in here. They all came here previous to last year. Now they have many of them dealt with out there. 41030. Of the other offences for which you make arrests offences, like disorder and breaches of the law, do you think any proportion of them are attributable to the drink habit and the drink trafiic ? — Most of the arrests within my time have been attributable to the drink. 41031. Have you noticed whether there is an increase of drunkeiniess and troubles growing out of drunkenness, about pay day ? — I think I can honestly say that latterly, especially since February, when the Sunday closing law went into force, we have had less drunkenness than previously, owing to the saloons being closed on Sunday. 565 II! ;, l! J; ii Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 41032. You think, then, that the Sunday closing regulation has produced gur fif tliis Sunday Act (-1 do not think .so. 41060. It has not shown itself by legislative action to be so as yet, or iiy tin- action of electing niembers to the Legislature with tlK)se views, I suppose,'- No. 41061. In case of the enactment of such a general prohibitory law, a law to pro- liibit the manufacture, importation and sale of intxixicating liipiors for beverage pur- poses, would you deem it right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation for their lo.ss of plant and maeliinery? — Yes, T think it would be nothing but fair that they be compensated. 41062. You .say you have not observed closely the oj)eration of the license law ; but so far as your ob.servation has gone, are there any amendments you could suggest.' — One has been suggested, namely, the closing of bar-rooms (tn Sunday and not allowing admittance to them. 1 think that would have a beneficial etlect. 41063. Can you express an opinion as the number of places in Naiiaimo under the license law, and whether a further limitation of the number would i)e beneficial 1 — I think the limitation of the number would diminish the amount of liipior used. 41064. Therefore you are in favour of limiting the number / Yes. By Rev. Dr. McLeod .• - 41065. Do we understand by your answer that partial proliii)ition wf»uld be bene- ficial ?— Yes. 41066. Have you noticed that the drink habit alTects your men injuriously to any degree ? — I cannot say that we have many men who are habitual drunkards, for we would not keep them. If we find men losing much time we do not keep them. 41067. Do you find that men with the drink ha))it do lose more or less time ? — Yes. 41068. Is he the man wlio gets drunk, or the man who drinks habitually and per- haps occasionally gets drunk? — Of course the men who drink to excess cannot attend to their work. 41069. Then it is the rule in your company to dismiss such men? — Yes. 41070. Have you found that the drinking liabits of men have changed of late years 1 — Y''es. We have less drinking here than formerly. 41071. To what do you attribute that improvement ?- Probably it is due to the Sunday closing law and also to public sentiment, which is greatly in favour of temperance. 41072. Do you think the fact that your company and probably other companies refuse to employ drinking men and discharge men for drinking, ha.s some effect? — It might have some effect. 41073. When a man knows that he cannot get work as a drinking man, that fact must have some effect on him, I suppose. Y''our company in thus dealing with the matter do so as a matter of business, because it is not in their interests to do other- wise ? — Yes. 41074. How often do you pay your men? — Once a month. 41075. Have you noticed that your men after pay day drink more freely than at other times ? — Yes, as a rule. 41076. Where are your mines situated?— In Nanaimo. We have our works extended under the river for four or five miles. 567 ■ \ ! 1 I Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 41077. Are tluTc niiy licensed placoH in the vicinity of the works? -No. 41078, Do you think that if licensed placew were estiihlishcd in the vicinity of your works they would i)e u nieniice to you?— There are liien.sod jtliiees within hiilf u mile. 4107!). \)o your men live within a radius of half a mile or a mile from your works / —Some live further away than that. 41080. Are there licensed pl.ces established within those limits?- Yes. 410H1, Have you obsei'ved whether those licensed places offer a stron<{ temjitatioii to y d by the com pany ? — The company now sell on the condition that the j)roi)er> .il not be used for licensed j)laces. 41084. Is that a recent rule ?— Y'es. I am now 8i>' ij^ {;^liug. Our itustoiiis Iiiwh iit tlif |>roit>iit tiiuf iirc j^ciiiMally oviuled iiiul Miiiu^'^'liii>;);oii<> on. 41 IU3. Ill cusu ot' tho <'iiaetiu«>nt of a ^'citoral itroliibitory law, a law to |iroliil>it tlii' inaiiufartui'f, iiii|)oi-tatioM and salt* of iiitoxicatiii;; lii|Uoi-s fur lM'vi-ra;;<> pui'post-s, do voii tliiiik hiowiTS and distillers siiould Ix- itMuaiifiated for tla-ir loss of plaitt and macliiiu'rv .' —Yes. By liei'. Dr. McLeud: 41 lot. How loii^' have you bt't'ii an iiisui.iiicc agfi.'. .' Onr nioutii. 4110."). Were you in business licrt- l»('forply to them as toother buildings .' No, a higherrate. 41114. Is it b(!cause li(|Uor is sold thei'e ? Yes. 4111"). Does the proximity of a liipior sti ■(( atl'ect the insura-ue on neighbouring buildings? — Yes. 41 1 IG. Is there a high rate charged for such ? Yes, generally a higher i-atc. By Jtidge McDonald : 41117. Is there any additional risk from liquor being stored in a place? — I cannot say, except in very large quantities ; it would depend on the kind of liipior and if there was a very large (juantity stored. 41118. If liquor was warehoused, would there be ][a higher late? —Yes, that would be owing to the inflammable nature of the gocxls. 41119. You have stated that companies are very particular in imjuiring into the habits of people who desire to insure, and you have said that people wIkj drink to excess are refused ? — Yea. 41120. Is any (juestion I'aised as b'jtween those wluxh'ink in modei'ation and those who do not drink at all ? — They will not accept drunkards. 41121. The question is as between men whodrink in moderation and those who are total abstainers ? — No dilFerenc*! is made. 41122. Would an application by a distiller for life insurance be refused ? — I think so. 41123. Would Mr. Walker or one of the lirm of tiooderham it Worts be refused life insurance? — I am not prepared to say they woukl or would not. 41124. So your rule is confined to men engaged in the retail trade, to bar-tenders, itc. ? — It depends a great deal on the habits of the men. 41125. You had better consider the matter l)efore you send in the statement that distillers and manufacturers of liquor are refused as risks b}' life insut mce companies. Do you still say that all manufacturers of liquor are refused? — I will not say all. 41126. Will you say that any manufacturers of liquor are refu.sed, if they are good lisks? — If they are good moral men, they will not be refused. 41127. So has the manufacture anything to do with the acceptance or non-accept- ance of such applications ? — It would have great weight with the company. 669 Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 41128. It" a manufacturer's life was otherwise a good risk, would the company accept or ref jse him ? — They would accept him. 41129. Then there is really no difference in the rule in regard to them ? — No. By Jiev. Dr. McLeod: 41130. What does your company say al)out manufacturers and distillers I — We ask ; " Are you engaged in the sale or manufacture of intoxicating liijuor ? " 41131. The question seems to class manufacture and sale together. You have to rej>ort on that matter ? — Yes. 41132. Are you sure bar-keepei-s are not taken at all ? — They ai'e not taken at all, if they make a business of bar-keeping. A hotel-keeper who employs a bar-keeper would be taken, but a bar-keeper making a regular business of it is not taken by this company. GEORGE CAINIPBELL, of Nanaimo, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — liif Judge McDonald : 41133. What is your business or occupation ? — 1 am -foreman in the employ of the Vancouver Coal Company. 41134. How long have you lived in Nanaimo 'Since August, 1875. 41135. How long have you lived in British Columbia ?- The same time. 41136. Did you come here from one of the other [)rovinccs ? — Yes, from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. 41137. What part ? — From Sydney Mines. 41138. Taking your population here, made up of miners to a certain extent and also a number of seafarinj? people, how do you find this community compares with other comnuniities as to being a law-abiding and ordei-ly one 1 — I think the population is as law-abiding and orderly here as almost anywhere. 41139. And it is composed of diH'erent nationalities ? — Yes. 41140. People of different habits and customs ? — Yes. 41 141. Are you in the same mine as Mr. McGregor ?-- 1 am in one of the niines of which he is manager. 41142. Pid you h..'ar his evidence?—! heard part of it. 41143. How do you find the license law work here? — We iiave what you might almost call a high license in this city, for many of the licensees pay .^300 a yeai-. 41144. We understand that you have 21 licenses for the sale of liijuor ?-— Yes. 4114;). Do you consider that number is more than required by the city 1 — I consider that number too many. 41146. Do you think it would be better if the number was reduced ? — Yes, Itliiiik it would be better, and there would not be so much liquor sold. 41147. Are you in favour of a liquor law or of prohibition? — T am in f.ivour of prohibition. 41148. As a matter of principle? — Yes, because it would be for the general good of the people. 41149. Are you opjtosed to the license system? — Yes. 41 150. Do you think it should be abolished ?— Yes. By Rer. Dr. McLeod : 41151. You work underground, I sujipose? — Yes. 4115;.*. Have you men under your contiol ? — Tn tiie absence of the nuiiiager and the foreman of the mine, the fireman is left in charge to see to the safety of the mine. 41153. Then you are responsible for the safety of the mine? — Yes. 41154. Have you any rules in the mines as regards drinking by employees ?- The gene "al rules of the company here are that if a man stays away for two days without reasonable excuse, i-c loses his place. Marcus Wolfk. • 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 my I 41100. Do men lose much time by drinking?— A little about jwy day, one or two days, but not a great deal of time. 41 15G. Have very many men Iwen discharged on account of being diunk 1 I suppose tiiey try not to get drunk ? — Yes, they try to keep their places. 41157. Do you think that the rule makes your men mi»re soliei- than if there was no such rule in force ? — It has a strong tendency that way. 41158. You hiive expressed yourself as favourable to prohibition. Have yuu thought of the matter sivlHciently to be able to say whether pi-ohibition could be enforced ? — I think it is quite possible to enforce such a law. I hear a large number of ])co}ile, including those who drink, express the wish that prohibition was in force in this province. 41159. Y%u think, then, that there are drinking mtii who would prefer prohibition to license ? — Yes, 1 have heard quite a nur.iber of them say so. 411G0. They think it would protect themselves, I suj>po.se? — They say they are not capable of looking after themselves, and that prohibition would assist them. 411G1. Is it the duty of the community to help such men / — 1 think .so. 41162. Have you observed in your intercimrse with the employees whether the families of thinking men are aflected by the drinking habits of the father? — In some cases with which I am personally acquainted, the families have suffered from the drinking habits of the parents. 411G;?. In the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law. do you think it would be proper to rennnicrate brewers and distillers for their loss uf plant .md machinery ? — -I think not. 41164. Why not? — If anything happened by which we would be called to shut down the mine and suspend operations for a time, we might as well .say that tht'i'om])any has a right to be renuuieratetl as that renuuieration should be granted to brewers and distillers of li(]uor. 411G5. If an Act of Parliament was passed closing up the coal bu.siiu;ss, would lii.it make iv different state of att'airs, or would ihe condition still be about tlu; sam;'. in your opinion? — 1 tlo not see why not. I think it would hv. a great blessing if tiie nioney invested in the liquor indu.strv was driven into other branches of trade, ai'.d the m:iiHi- facture of articles that arc necessary to the comfort of the jieople. 41166. Do you thiidc the liusiness of the country would not siilTer if the brewcrii's and distilleries were clo.sed up ? — I think that would increase the business jind welfare and ])rosperity of the whole people. By Judge McDonald : 431G7. Sujiposing an Act of Parliament was nas-^'".! iiMpiiring your mine to h.ive certain and exiicnsive machinery put it, av.d iin .\ct was afterwards passed, declaring that you could no long:'r mine coal, ant', all machinery and plant were left on the company's hands, do you think it wocld be (piite right tha' you should not receive rennmeration ? - Yt-s, if it was a business that was injm-ing the com try. 4116bi. Do yim think it would be quite right if Parliament rf uired the con'pany to put in certain plaiiL and then afterwards ]iassed a law prohi!)itiM!; tne tuitheroperaiion of the coal mine ; would you deem it right that the company >.iioidd be renuinerati'il for loss of plant and ni.ichinery rendered useless? — In that case i •unsidev that it woidd be fair if compensation were paid for ail machinery and plant handed omt to the (!o\i in- nietit. The (Government should buy out the ])i'operty. 4116l». In a similar case in which brewers and distillers were parlies, do you think it right that the (ioveriunent should take over the machinery and jilaiit and pay them the value? —Not if the trade was considered injurious. 41170. Do you think it is injurious to the connniunty for auy man to diink alcoholic licjuor in moderation?--! tii'idv injury is done in almost all cases. 41 171. Do you think it is a sin t< tlrink wine?— I think it is very injurious to the system. 41 172. Do you think it is a sin to drink wine?— I shtaild call it a sin, a violation of the law ; T should con.sider taking alcohol nito the system to be a sin. 41 173. Is it a .sin to drink intoxicating Imvcrages in mtKle -ation ? 1 C(tnsider it .i sin to take into the .system anything which s injurious. 571 |i| ' l-l 'III liiquor Traffic — British Columbia. 41174. Ts it ,1 sin to drink intoxicating beverages in moderation ? — I consider that a sin. 411 7'"). You tliink it is injurious to any person who drinks it? — I consider it injurious to anybody. It has Ijeen stated by medical men of authority tliat any one wlio takes alcohol into the .system is not a healthy man. 41176. Even in moderation? — Yes. 41177. And further you think you would Ije benefiting the people as well as the men who drink to excess if you prohibited them from obtaining drink ? — Yes, it would be doing them good. 41178. You would cause men who drink in moderation to abstain ? — Yes. 41179. You would pass a law to prohibit the manufacture, importatidYi and sale of intoxicating liquors for beverage purposes ? — Yes. 41180. Do you think such a law could be enforced ?— 1 think it could be enforced as well almost as any other law is enforced. There is no law that is perfectly eiuorced. 41181. Can you inform the Counnissioners of any country in the world where there is such a law in force to-day? — In the State of Maine they have prohibition. 41182. But they have no such law as you speak of. In that state a man can hrve all the liquor he wants in his cellar and give it to his friends. You think it a .it, '^ drink wine and you would keep it away from the people. In Maine, however, c . ryo/i is permitted to drink it and have it for his own u.se if he pleases. Would you ik'W people in this country to send to ^Montreal and obtain liquor and keep it in their ct'liars and treat their friends ? Could you name any country or state where the people have such a law as you desire? — ^I could not name any country or staie where they do good to that extent ; of course alcohol is r'^quired for medical purpo.ses. 41183. Prohibition is to restrict it for beverage purposes? — Yes. I am in favour of such a law. 41184. Do you think smuggling would go on if sucli \umi, deposed as follows : — Jiy Judge McDonald : 41194. What is your profession ? — I am a physician and surgeon. 41195. How long have you lived in British Columbia? — 17 years. 41196. How long have you lived in Nanaimo? — 10 yeai-s. 41197. How do you find the people here, are they orderly and law-abiding? — Considering the amount of liijuor consumed, they are very much better than in any other place I have been in, and I have been all over the world. 41198. Have you observed the operation of the license law here? — I have not so much in the city as in the district. 41199. How does it work ? — I do not like it. 41200. What is the difficulty ?— The difficulty is this, it does not allow a poor man to get a license. There is too much competition to give him a chiince to obtain a license. 41201. Are licenses granted in the rural districts by the Licensing Board? — Yes, which is too small. 41202. How many are there on the Board? — Three members, which number may be increased to five, and the Stipendiary Magistrate can sit, which would increase tht; number to six ; but up to a certain time only three magistrates iiave been sitting on tlie Board. 41203. For how large a district would those tiiree men act? — Kor a tlistiict about 5.3 miles long and several miles broad. 41204. Do the licenses in the district which you mention observe- tlie {jrovisiuns of the license law and comply with the requirements ? — In what way ? 41205. Do they close tiieir houses on Sunday? — I never ascertained tliat fact. They do in and about the place where I am residing, and they an; veiy strict in regard to it. 41206. What is the license fee paid? — 1 am not aware, but it is tlie usual provincial fee, I think $100 a year. 41207. Have you considered the question of prohiliition?— \'es. 41208. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you think a general |iroliibit my lav,- could be practically enforced here ? — No. 41209. What would be the difficulties ?— In the first place, tho people are not educated up to such a law. In the second place, to attempt to establish a prohibitory law would lead to other evils, such as snmggling and the nicanufaoture of illicit li(|Uor. 41210. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law for the whole Dominion, do you think it right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation tor IoslS of plant and machinery? — Certainly, like every other vested interest. 41211. Speaking as a medical man, from your experiences aufl practice, have you :i)und many cases to arise from alcoholism ? — I have found in a country lik(( this very few cases to arise from alcoholism, considering the amount of licjuor consumec'. 41212. Do you mean that a great many of the peoph- consume liquor? — They drink in moderation a good deal. They do not drink licpior as much as beer. 41213. Has the consumj)tion of beer materially increased since former days? — I cannot say ; I think that would be a matter of statistics, and I have not gone into tlicni. By Rev. Dr. McLeod: 41214. You have spoken about the ditHcul'y experienced by some people in ob- taining licenses. Are we to understand that irrespon;ible people sonii'times get licenses' — That is a matter I had not thought about. The reason I object to the license system is this ; it causes a house that obtains a licenst! to possess a certain pecuniary value ; that is to say that a man by the very fact that he obtains a license secures a certain value for the property. 41215. The license attaches to the premises?-- Yes. 41216. You think it would be well to change the law in that respect? — F do. t would also do away with the provision refpiiring a certain petition to be signeil when 573 \\ \ \ Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. -I.- 11 ^:1 application is made for a license, for those people who sign are as a rule not in favour of granting the license but sign because they do not wish to offend the proprietor. 41217. Do you think it would be well to have a license system, so that a man would be required to procure a license every year the same as at first? — Yes, subject always to the reports which might be made by the police as to the character of the house. 41218. And, of course, if disorderly conduct prevailed, you would have the license refu.sed and vice versa'i — Certainly. Of course, if the house was unecessary, I would have it done away with altogether. 41219. You must also consider the district in which the license is granted, I suppose .' — Yes; there have been 18 deaths in the province of British Columbia due to alcohol within a short tmie comparatively. 41220. You mean drunken people ? — Yes. Two umrders were also due to tlmt cause and there have been three cases due to drinking by Indians and other people, who were not able to take care of themselves. 41221. You think the liquor traftic is responsible for those untimely deaths'? — Yes. 41222. Hp 1 5 vou observed whether the drink traffic has been responsible for any percentage of ui. r ■ 'eaths annually ? — I know no more than what I have learned from the Inspector d to be hereditary. 41242. What effect would total al)stinence or enforced prohibition have on the health of a community at large ? — I cannot help answering it in this way : 1 suppose it would be for their benefit. 41243. As to insanity. From your examination of the statistics of the insane, have you been able to determine to what extent insanity could be traced directly or iiuli- rectly to drink ? — In Rockwood Asylum in Kingston, where I was assistant for a time, I think the statistics of drunkards showed they were about three-eighths of the total number. 41244. Have you from your study been able todeterniine whether the use of alcohol in any percentjige of cases was a predisposing cause of insanity ? — Yes. 41245. In any considerable degree? — I have never given that matter- sufficient thought to be able to express an opinion, nor have I given the subject .sufficient atten- tion to be able to give an affirmative answer to it with an\' certainty. 41246. As a physician coming into close contact with the people, are y.-)u able to state what is the effect of the drink habit on domestic hapj)iness, physical health and the intelligence and morals of the people I — The drinking habit of the father acts in twcj ways: either in regard to causing a tendency on the pai't of the child to drink, or to do wrong. With respect U) happiness, of course drinking is not conducive to happiness. In Ontario several years ago (I do not know whether the Act is in force now, or not, but it was when I was living there) there was an Act by which njeii with flrinkiiig habits could be restained from drinking under the law. I have seen cases in which that Act worked ^'ery satisfactorily. Bi/ Judge McDonatd : 41247. How do you define a habitual di-inker and a nuMJerate drinki'r? — The niome daj'S. 1 ■ ! i 575 Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. JOSEPH RANDOLPH, Jr., of Harewoixl Distiict, Nanaimo, mine overman, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; — By Judge McDonald : 41249. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — All my life. I wius (jnly five 3'ears old when I came here. 41250. How many years have you been an overseer? — Three years I think. 41251. Do you find the people of this section law-abiding and orderly people? — Fairly so. 41252. You have had no experience of any other country? — No. 41253. Are you favourable to prohibition or to the license system ? — I am favour- able to prohibition. 41254. On principle ?— Yes. 41255. Are you oppo.sed to the license system on principle ? — Yes. 41256. You think such a system is wrong? — Yes. 41257. Do you think it is a sin to license the sale of liquor ? — I do. By Rev. Dr. McLeod: 41258. What is the effect of the liquor trafBc on the men under your supervision] — We do not have a great deal of drinking among the men. 41259. Why is that? — We do not employ men who drink. 41260. Do you think tiie fact that 3'ou do not employ men who drink, deters men from drinking? — I do. 41261. When you refer to men who drink, what do you mean? — I refer to men who drink liquor and get drunk. 41262. What do yim regard as excessive drinking? — I consider it excessive when a man cannot do his usual work. 41263. Day after day?— Yes. 41264. Do you discharge them if they lose time by drinking? — Yes. 41265. You think the rule against drinking has been beneficial to the men? — I certainly believe it has. 41266. Do you regard the system you have in force as a kind of prohibition ? — It is a poor kind of prohibition, but I think it helps the men. 41267. You say you are opposed to the license system ? — Yes. 41268. And you pref(!r the prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — Yes. 41269. From your observation of the men in the mines and elsewhere, have yini noticed whether their families are affected injuriously or beneficially by their drinking habits? — That is a question j(»u could hardly decide, but, from general information I get, I think it is injurious to the families. 41270. Have you any young men employed ? — Yes, quite a few. 41271. Have they the drink habit, that is any, number of them? — Some of them. 41272. Has the influence of the churches and the temptsrance societies had any effect on them? — Not much. 41273. Do you think the licensed drink shops are more tlian a match for the churches and tempeiance societies ? — Yes, I think they aie. 41274. Have you any licensed drink .shops in the vicinity of your mine? — Not within 400 or 500 yards. 41275. Are there any licensed places on the property of the mining company? —No. 41276. Would the company permit the establishment of licensed places in tlic vicinity of their woi-ks ? — No, they would not. 41277. Why not? — It would tend to create too much difficulty in the mines. Joseph Randulpu. 676 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 EMIL ARNOLD PRAEUEH, M.D., of Nanainu), on Ix^iiig duly sworn, (leposi-d as follows : — - By Judye McDonnhl : . 41278. Are you a Health Officer ? — Yet., and Surf;eon of the mines, 41279. How long have you resided in British Columbia! — Nine years. 41280. How long in Nanaimo? — 8ix years. U281. Did you come here from one of the other provinces / — I came here fro'ii England. 41282. From your observation, are the people here a sober and law-abiding people ,' — During some years, in England, I lived in the mining district; I was one of tin- col- liery surgeons for I^n-d Durham. I consider that the miners hert? are far more soljer than those in the north of England. 41283. Are the miners almost all English ? — Yes, nearly all. 41284. What nationalities prevail here? — English-speaking people preponderate, but there are also Belgians, Russians, Finns and Italians, in fact all nationalities are pretty well represented here. 41285. Have you observed the operation of the license law since you have been here 1 Ha\e you found it to work satisfactorily ? — There has Ijeen a markwl improve- ment since the Sunday closing law went into force. 41286. You favour that law ? — Yes, and since it has been in force, there has been remarkably little drunkenness on the streets. 41287. Is there a strong sei timent in the counnunity in favour of the Sunday closing law? — -I have found the majority express themselves in favour of it, even the saloon- keepers favour it. 4 1 288. Have you rea.son to believe that the same weight of sentiment is in favour i )f the national prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — No. 41289. From your experience, do you believe that if a general prohibitory law weie enacted by the Dominion Parliament it could be enforced ? — No. 41290. What would be the difficulty ?— In the first place you could never enforce a law of prohibition in this country or any other country. If men want drink, they will have it. I piussed through the North-west Territories during thepiohibition period, and I have also visited some of the States in the United States, where they have blue laws and where it is supposerl to be impossible to get liquor, but I have found you could get as much as you wanted. 41291. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic li(|Uors for beverage purposes, do you think it right that brewers and distillers should l)e compensatfid for their lo.ss of plant and machinery ? — Most certainly. 41292. Is there any large portitin of the cases you have to deal with nttributaitlt' l<» the use of liquor, indirectly or directly? — I cannot say, as the pet)pk' here arc most sober and orderly, consideiing the class of people to which they Iwlong. Take the mining class at home : it is well known that mining conununities in the old country produce mure drunkenness than any other connnunity. Of course a mining lunnnunity prwliiccs more offences and serious otl'ences than any other connnunity. T lia\e no statistics, but from my knowledge of the nortli of England, I am able to say that in tlic mining coni- nmnities the offences are more varied than in any other connnunity. 41293. Has it been found that drinking has been cariied to excess in the mining districts? — Perhaps so in England, but I do nut think it lias been the cast; here. W - have a number of north of England men here. 1 think a !;reat deal is due to surround- ings. In England the men are, as a rule, badly housed. The miners on \Am\ Duiliiim's estates were well housed compared with othei" miners, but still they had not the pretty little liouies that the miners here have. I think that has a great deal to do with the drinking question. Where people live huddled together, their houses back to back, and without possessing the real comforts (»f home, the men go out. 41294. Have you found here that the influence of religious Ixwlies and temperance societies and moral suasion have all had a good effect on the people in leg/ird to improv- ing their habits ? — I suppose to a certain extent thev have. 577 21—37** i i .f 1 I H li^ ij ^i! Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. i I 41295. Are there any suggestions you could make to the Commission in reganl tt» the questions submitted to tliem ? I thiniv tlie license law is the only one that it is pos- sible to work. In my opinion, a proper license system thoroughly carried out presents \ ery few obstacles. By Rev. Dr. Mc Lewi: 4129G. Do you regard the present license system as quite up to the mark? — No, I (le. 41319. I think you said that you did not think prohibition «ould be enforced ? — Xo. 41320. I have had a little experience of your endeavouring toeiiforcethe prohibition against the introduction of small-pox. Do you find it practically ditficult to enforce that prohibition ? — No ; we have not done so. 41321. I remember on Saturday night we had either to show vaccination marks on our arms to satisfy you, or be sent back to Victoria or be vaccinated '! — You would have Ijeen dealt with according to the regulations. Allow me to dr .' — No, I lived in Vancouver for a few months. 41348. Taking this community as you have it and comparing it with others, have you found it to be a law-al)iding and sober coninuniity ? — Yes. 41349. Have you observed that the provisions of the license law are carried out by the people engaged in the trade? — It would depend on what provisions you refer to. 41350. Take tlie Sunday clause. — Y'^es ; I have had occasion to know something about that. 41351. Well what about it ? I think on the whole, at least lately, Sunday observance here will compare favourably with any place in the province. 41.352. You spoke of having lived in Califor.'ia : did Sunday observance prevail there? No. 41353. It has been suggested that it would be an improvement if bar-nxinis were reijuired to close on Sunday. Have you formed an opinion on that jjoint ? — Y'^es. I am Chairman of the Central Temperance Committee in this city, and we take exception to that clause in the Sunday closing Act. It says they " should " be closed. Evidently the person who drew up that provision thought it would be a gooil idea to have the saloons close, but the word " should " should i)e replaced by " ought " in the Act. 41354. You are going to ask the Legislatui-e to make that amendment? — Yes, that is pioposed. Emil AiiNOLi) Praeger. 580 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 41.'ir).'5. What is the line of wtirk of th<> tcinpenmce orgaiii/ntioii of whicli vnii are ehainnan? — \V«' hiul an inijJreHsion tiiat the Sunday olosiiij^ Act was not altuj^i'tlicr uhserved, and so committees from each society and church in tlic city were a|>|iointcd to meet almut once a month or every forniglit to make careful ohseivation during Sunday, and to report to our meetings wliat was going on. It is not necessary foi' me to go into (h'tails and tell what was reported : hut I may say tiiat tlie different persons made i-epctrts after careful observation. 41.'jr)6. Have you many temperance organizations in the city ? Two or three. 413.J7. I suppo.se you have hardly l»een hjng enough here to he ahle to speak comparatively of the state of things now with what existeest thing. 41366. But you would favour prohibition as a matter of principle 1 Yes. 41367. I suppose your ac([uaintance has hardly been sutficiently long to enable you to .say as to the practicability of enforcing a general prohibitory law in this country ? — T know the country very well. 41368. Do you think such a law could be enforced? I think there would be smuggling here. The people here can get articles across the boundary, and they are far cheaper. 41369. Suppose the people could not get liquor here, would they bring it across irom the United States? — T do not think you could institute a comparison between the necessities of life and licjuor. Liquor in itself is a lu.xury at best. It becomes a necessity afterwards. As a rule, if a man is poor, he wants a .siut of clothes rather than liquor. 41370. You would endeavour to secure a fair measure of enforcement if such a law were passed ? — Yes. 41371. Is there such a trend of public sentiment in favour of prohibition as there is in favour of the Sunday closing Act ? — No, because a large portion of the people think it right to take a glass, and they are of course part of the people. 41372. In ca.se of the enactment of a general pvi'iiMtory law, do you think it would be right that brewers and distillers should be crni'^: sated for the loss of their y)lant and machinery? —I have given considerable attention to the matter, and 1 am imt al)le to answer it categorically. I think we cannot institute any fair comparison between the liquor trade and any other industry. Suppose I desired to get a license to-day. f could go to the license court and get a license for a certain limited time. I know public .sentiment, and I am aware that there is an agitation going on against the trade, and that there is a possibility or practicability of my losing my investment in consequence of legislation on the subject. Lmiking at the matter in that way, I think every one entering the trade at the present time should be prepared to lose his investment, as such would be the case after the enactment of a genei-al prohibitory law. 41373. The law retjuires the manufacturers tf» provide certain machinery and plant, and distillers are requirer denlei's of Nanaiino were Ix't'ore me, they might he brought to declare that they would all i|uit the husine.ss. In that ease it windd pay Nanaimo to com|ienHate them. il'M^i. You think it might he better to have prohibition under those cireumstaiieos than not at all f - Yes. 11370. You spoke about the Sunday law not being well ';l»served at tii'st and your Society taking some action l)id you make any charges and secure any convictions against parties ? We did not, altlu-'igh there were persons who were repctrted and brought up. 41377. Why did you not ,iroceed ( — Simply becau.se we wanted to give the popula- tion a chance, and it was nine iitonths or a year since the law had been ni force. The policemen were working hai'd. We thought the proper move was to go to the (/ouncil !ini] to the Legislature, if we knew anything, to report to them and have the matter dealt with amicably, that the jiarties might have notice and be able to stop. We had no desire to harbour any feeling against the trade, 4137!^. You let it be understo(Ml that your society was prepared to enforce the provisions of the Sunday law t —Yes, that was the intention. 41371*. Do you think it had the effect of preventing violations '. — Yes. 41380. Then did you understand from that that the provisions could be enforced / - -I think so. 41.381. Do you think it would be well to change the licen.se system and limit tlie hours during which a house may sell '!■ -^ think it would be very nmch Iv 'v if our law in this particular was similar to the (Jntario law. 41382. Now there are 26 hours in 168 hours in the week in whic cannot be carried on? Yes, I think it is very strange that per.sons are allowed to .^ell up to one o'clock on Sunday UKjrning ; it strikes me as being very peculiar. 4138.3. Can you tell why they do that ?— I suppf)se they want to get as neai" Sunday as possible, and no doubt they thought if they kej)t open until that hour it would give a fair show to all parties. 41384. How long hnve you been a minister? — I have been practically engaged in the work, mure or less, for lOyears. 41385. During that time, of course, you have come into contact with family life in the communities in which you have been engaged? — Ye.s. 41386. You have had a good deal to do with parents, 1 supjMise? — Y''es. 41387. Can you tell from your observation and expt^rience as a minister what is the effect of the drink trade and habit on the crimes committt'd, neglect of childi-en, poverty, immorality, etc? — I have taken considerable interest in looking into that iiues- tion. The decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States, in which you find the history of the world, leave no doubt as to what effect it has. 41388. From your observation as a minister, have you found tliat tliv' tiecisions of the Supreme Court have been behind the law against the liquor trade ? -Y'^es, emphati- cally so. I will give an illustration in regard to a case of a man in this town. One day I was down town, and a man was drunk. His wife told me that he had been drunk since the 1st of the month, and since that time he had spent several hundred dollars. I took an intere.st in the man, although he did not belong in my district. I visited him when he sobered up. He stated that he was willing to be sober, but that he had not the power to resist. The only thing he said that could be done would Ije to put him on an island, he said, where he could not get liquor. 1 applied to the courts of Justice and they assinted me. We put the man under the Act relating to drunkards, and succeeded in shutting him up. He went to work again. The company gave him work. I saw him last week, and he was drunk again after pay day. 41389. Would it have l)een an advantage to that man if there had been nodrinking places in the town ? — Certainly. It is very improper that licensed dealers after they have been spoken to and warned against .selling to certain people should still keep on selling ; some do this and some will not do so. Rkv. D. a. McRae. 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 H.''*JO. You spoke alKiut takiiiK iMlvaiitii)^*' of tlif Idiiiikaid's Act. Wliiii is tlint ? — Tlio Act rwuls somi'thin^t likf this : if it tun 1k> shown tliut a iium p'ts ch'utik m- spt-nils his money In-yond wiuit he is h1)U' to do on li(|Uors, he n\n be phu-od under th(f l»iunkiird'H Act. Any one who gives such a man litpior can he fined according' to Paw. H-'tiM. Fs notice ^iven to the licensed dealers? Yes. HM!»2. And they are suhjected to penalties if they sell to those men .' Yes, that is a very ;;;(Mid clause in the Act, and it is the only place where T have .seen a drunkard defined. 4IM'.);{. Have you had many cases of that kind?- -T have heard of manv, hut there was no case hut this one that came directly to my o\)servation. 41.'594. Do you know whether in such cases li(|Uor has i)een obtained by sending otheis to f{et it and thus the man has obtained it? — This man did not- he (il)tained it. at times anil at times he did not. Bi/ Jndye McDonald ; 4131)."). What is the jud^nnent of the Supreme Court of the United States to which you hava referred? — T think it was the case of California r. Christeson. 1S<.»0. Tho courts stated that they traced more crimes to liijuor than to any other singlt- cause. If JOHN PAAVSON, of Nanaimo. n heini;' duly sworn, deposed as follows: — Ri/ Judge Jfc Donald ; 41.'?96. What is youi' business «»r (tcoupation?— T am out ritish Culumbia .' - .'it years. 41.'{98. How long in Xanaimo ? — '2',i or 1' 1 years. 41.'J99. Did you come here from one of the other pi'ovinces? — No, from California last. I liave been all over the world, including Australia. 41400. Have you been in an}' jimhibition co\Mitry? No, not except in countries where we could not get any liijuor. I have i)een here in tlit* mountain as u pioneer, for example. 41401. Pei'haps you can give the Commission information in regard to a country where there is said to be prohibition, the Fiji Islands. Have you been there? — T have been in the Sandwich Islands, where there is high license in force. I have not lieen in the Fiji Islands. 41402. In what part of British Columbia lia\t> you resided, except in Nanaimo?- I have travelled all over the province. 41403. All the parts in which you have travelled, have been under a license law, I suppo.se? — Y'es ; in some places far reumved from settlement thei-e were no laws. 41404. Have you had any experience of Alaska? My experience when f came here led me to believe that there was a gfxxl deal of smuggling going on with Alaska. My experience wa.s, of course, second hand. I know however that large cpiantities of iicjuor were taken from here to Alaska, where there is a prohibitory law in force. T was very much interested in the description gi\cn of the manufactui'e of li(juor in Alaska by the Indians. The natives prepare what is called a worm with kelp, •_'■_' feet in length. They take a coal oil can, and with the assistance of molasses make hoochino. 4140.5. Is it a raw spirit? — -Y'es, it is manufactured from molasses by the Indians. At least they did so in the eaily days. I do not know whether they do so now, because they can import lifjuor without going to the expense of manufacturing it. 41406. You liave had ex'ierience of the license law here? — Yes. " 41407. How have ycai found it work, satisfactorily?— Y'es, except in some years. 41408. Are there any .imendments you can suggest in regard to it? — The way the law is now the power is left in the hands of certain parties, wlio are appointed a Boai'd of Conmiissioners. Formerly it was in the hands of the police of the province. I do not 583 M Liquor Trattic — Hritish Ooliimuia. tliink the ]>re,seiit iirraii<;inent is -^ii improveiueiit on tlie t'i)riuer one. T *l(i not believe in givinj:; licenses i.'ulisiMiininateiy, and at tlie present time there ai-e more licenses issued tliaii are advaiita^'i'oiis to the city. 11409. We have been told that there .ue 1\ licensed places here? — Yes. and that numlnM' is nuite eni)iij»h. 41410. 1>() the licensees comply with the reijuirements of the law as regards closing on Sunday, for instance? — Kor some years T was a licensee, and durin<;; that time I nnist say that 1 never allowed j;ambling in my house. At that time the authorities did not enforce the Sunday closing law. I H 1 1 . Was there such a law in existence 1 — Not at that time. I carinot .say how it is enforced now. 1 believe there are conscientious men in the trade who, like myself, would carry out the law whatevei- it was. In the early days the saUwii was like the cii'l). There were at that time none of the home comforts that are found in older set- lied conuiuinities, and in fact there were very few of the home comforts that exist at the present time. At that tnne men li»ved in cabins and lived roughly. Many of them li\ed with lnJiii!i women, and the con.sequence was that in the saloon > ou would hear the latest gossip, for news came but once a week, and there were no telegraphs. So the s.iloon was a rendezvous for the men to a greater extent than it is now T do not know tiiat there was moi'e dissip.ition then tluui now in tlu> sahxtn, but there was a tlifferent class of people in them at that time. You will find in all new countries where there is a llnating jjopulation, that the men must congregate .somewhere, and they meet in the saloon. The saloons and the hotels have really lieen the clubs in all the.se new countries. At the ]iresent time the population in the co' niry is more steady, and they are beginning to feel the influences of domestic life. 41412. We are told that the people are now having comfortable homes of their own ? --Yes, but th»j had not got them in those old days. 4141."). Mave you considered the (juestion of the desirability of having a general |)ro- hibitory law pas.sefl for the whole IVmiinion ? — T do not longer drink Hudson 'Jay luni, but liquor of which they might di'ink a large quantity ■before becouii're tiie laws wei'e more liberal. 4142.'i. Who would provide coisipensation .' 1 do not know, but I suppose it would be necessary to impose a tax on tea, and enough should be made out of tl.'it. 41424. That is, compensation would be paid by the people? — Yes. 4142"). That is to say, that the distillei-s and brewers, and licensed vendors and farmers ha\ing, dui'ing a periwl of years, done a profitable business und laid up moiiev, as no doubt you have done, shouhl be comjtensated, and the people who have l>een their jiatrons and helped them to attain this state of wealth, should b" taxed to give them some more money. Is that it? 1 do not tiiink that the sal(M)n-Keepei's or the brewers and manufacturers, or the farmers, dri'.gged these men in and made them buy liip.oi'. 4142t). Did the authorities give you a special right to .sell ? -Yes. 41427. When you had a license you iiad a special right given to sell / Yes 41428. The law says you may have a license for a certain period, one year, for which you pay a certain ainount, and li.ere are also conditions attached to it. At the end of that period you have no longei- any right to c0"!»inue without paying over again and getting a license .' C/crtainly. 4142'J Then you take the risK as to the renewal of Vv.ur licei.se, except in Hritish Columbiii, where, we understand, some of the houses are licensed right along '. If you rohibite iikard. I think it is folly to as>ert that becau.se a man goes on drinking and (hink- 'i'- neces.sarily becomes a ilrunkard. 41438. You say that when a man becomes ; drunkard he should be isolated f -I do. l)runkenn(>ss is like any other disease. 41439. At somt? time that man was not a dri'nkard .' It was born in him. 41440. Is that the result of your observation ,' i believe drunkemiess is a disease. 41441. lidierited 'I — Sometimes, not always. 41442. In somecasesit is not iidierited. The (|uestion i ask is this : While you be- lieve it is right to prohibit the diunkard, would it not be i ight to prohibit the man who is becoming a drunkard f How would vou draw the line.' l-'or instance, 1 have (!ood Templars coming to me am IS a matter of deception, ask me togi\<' them one or two drinks. 4l44.'{. Freipiently? Y'es. I have served out drink to them. They said, "I will take another. I will change the <;lass." I did n"t change it, but it was only one drink. It is a system of hyi)ocrisy. m ii B L Liquoi' Traffic — British Columbia. 41444. You did not liave particular respect for those men? — No, I had contempt for them. 4144"). Were those men numerous? — There were quite a number, men who occupied good positions in the city. 41446. How long were you in business? — T was 10 years here, and in Victoria. 41447. During that time how many men would there be coming under that des- cription ? — T should not like to tell you how many. 41448. Were there about 50? — Yes, al)out that number. 41449. Were some of them what are callefl repeaters t — Yes, a good many of them. One was a gentleman who occupied a very good position in Victoria and a man who has taken a very prominent part in temperance work. 41450. You do not believe he had any motive of deception? — I do not believe u liypocrite. 41451. You l)elieve the Young Men's Christian Association and the Temperance societies have a good effect ? — 1 do believe so. In early days the young men had not the chances they ha\'e now. This town used to be very rough, and we tried to get up (1 belonged to that disreputable cla.ss known as saUion-keepers at that time) a suitable place, and in fact it was through my exerticjiis that a comfortable home was provided for the young men. The trouble at that time was the lack of family society. 41452. Could you get that at the lmrr(x)m? — No. 4145,'?. Why did they not run tn of those who use them to excess large or small ? — Very small indeed. 41456. I think I understood you to say that men who use liquor to excess should be taken away from the liquoi? — Certainly. I have some statistics herein regard to the United States. I was l(H)king over some papers the other day, and I found that out of 6,6.'$7 homicidal cases that were investigated by the lUireau of Statistics there was a lai'ger percentage of people who were total abstainers than drunkards. Those are the statistics. Mi COLIN C. MACKENZIE, M.P.P., of Nanaimo, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : — By Judge McDonald : 41457. What is your business or occupation? — lama real estate and insurance agent. 4145S. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — About, .'i4 years. 4145'J. How long have you liveil in Nanaimo? — About 8 years. 41460. In what other parts of the j>rovince have you resided ? -In Victoria. 41461. Did you come here from one of the other provinces ? I came here from Winnipeg. T went from Winnipeg to England foi- 5 years, and I afterwards tami- out here. 4146'J. Have you ever lixed in any prohibition country? — When I was in Winnipeg we could nevei- get liquor of any kind. 4146.'$. Was that during the old Hudson i^ay days? — Yes. 41464. Was Hudson |>ay ruin used in those days? — Yes, rum and brandy. 41465. To what extent was there prohibition ? None was to be had. JoH.N Pawsox. 68:i your 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 41466. Had they no Hudson Bay liquors? — The company kept a small t|uantity in stock and ga\'e it out at Christmas time. 41467. Did the factors get it? -Yes. 41468. Did they use it in their families? — They had it imported from Kngland. 41469. Among what classes did prohibition exist ? — The people generally could not get it. 41470. Then there was no direct prohibition. Wiien the stock ran out, did they have to wait f(»r another supply ?- -Yes. 41471. Which took a long time, I suppose? — Yes. 41472. Did it come in vessels from England to York Factory and thcTu-c to Winnipeg '! — Yes. 4147.S. Does tliat vessel still run? — I believe it does. 41474. In this province I believe you have always iiad a license law in force ? — Yes. 4147'). Are you in favoi-..- of a license law? Yes. 41476. Or do. you favour proiiibition ? — I favour proliibition, but I do not think it is practicable to enforce it. 41477. Why not ? — Tiie people in this country come from the old countries, iind they were brought u]> to consider liquor part of their daily fotxl, and it is very hard for tiiem to be ))rohibited from getting their liquor. But there are a great many ))eople coming in now who favour temperance. 41478. Do you find there is a growing sentiment in favour of using less liquor? — Yes. 41471). In that respect the people are a law to themselves? — Yes. 41480. They abstain bj" their own voluntary act? — Yes. 41481. Take the case of men who are constantly tn'uught before the police court and convicted of drunkenness and sent to jail for short terms. l)oestliat system do the men any good, in your opinion ? — No. 4148l!. Do you think it would be better to place them in inebriate asylums with a view to their reformation ? Yes. 41483. In ca.se of the enariuKMit of a genei'al prohibitory law, do you think it right that brewers and di.stillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery ?-- Yes, I think so. T think it is .something hi- s|a\ery in the United tStates. Tt would have been cheaper for the country to ha\r liouglil up all the slaves I'ather than to have freed them as they did. 41484. Can you make any suggestions to the Cunnnwsion in regard to annMiiling the license law that is in force at the present time.' The bar-rooms, in my oiiiuinn, should be shut up here on Sunday. 4148.1. The sale of liquor is pi-ohibited, but you think it woul I be belter to cluse the bar-rooms altogether? — Yes. 1 think tlie light should be put out in the roonl^. and in fact no light allowed. As it is now, you always see a light in the tiar-room. Jii/ Rev, Dr. McLeod : 41486. You are a representative, I believe? — Yes. 41487. You represent this (), which shall lie made as provided by tlie jireceding clause, provided, nevertheless, that no such transfei- shall he granted unless a majority of the llftard is of oninion that the person to whom it is projmsed to make such transfer is a proper pers(m to hold such license." I think that covei's the [wint you have raised. 41540. You have .said tliat you believe the license law works very well in its pre- sent shape. How do you find its provisions observed l)y licensees ! Do they keep their liouses closed on Sunday, and do they live up to the law > — We believe that the law works very satisfactorily. Our Chief of Police will be able to reply to any (|uestion fleai- ing with that point. 41541. So far as your observation has extended, you believe the law is observed very wellf — Very well indeed. 41542. Have you reason to believe that there is any unlicensence. Have you anv people ill this community who are bmught before the police court for drunkenness, men who are habitual drunkard.s :>nd who .re convicted and sent tn jail for short terms and are released and repeat tlie saine "' nee? No. 41557. You are not troubjou with such persons here ? No. Jiy R^v. Dr. McLeod : 11558. In regard to the matter of licenses . do all the present licensees coiniily with the conditions in regard to the matter of making application I I)o they obtain the names of two-thirds of the lot owners and married women within a certain range; or hnve licenses l)een renewed to them because they held licenses ? -They have complied with all the eoiulitions. 41559. You refer to the present licensees? — Yes. They cannot obtain licenses without having done so. 591 \ 1 IB*? Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 41"(>0. I)o thost! wlio liave carried tlieir licenses for iiiiiny years comply with tin- conditions of the new license system ? — There is no necessity. H561. Will you reiwl the clause applying to that matter ? Clause .ij covers it. 41562. How many of tiie present licensees, of whom you say there are li', are not riMjuired to comply with the present law? — I am not prepared to say, hut I think ahoul half of them. 41563. I ask that (juestion, because we found in Nanaimo there were only 3 or I who had to comj)ly with the new regulations, the Imlk of the licensees havinj; V)een gran t«'d licenses under the previous arrangement ? — I am not prepared to answer that(|uestioii just now. 41564. You have statefl approximately the number? — I should .say fully half of our license holders. 41565. Is there any way by which your old-time licensees may l)e deprived of their licenses : has your Board any discretion in the matter whatever? Not at all that 1 sec. 41566. So they hold their licenses in perpetuity? — So long as they keep orderly houses. 41567. So they can retain their licenses s(» long as they are not guilty of some fla- grant offence ? — Yes. 41568. Is there any case of a license having been revoked? — Not since 188!>, when our by-law was passed. There is a clause stating that a license once forfeite«l can never i)e renewed. At the time the by-law was passes] there were eight who lost their licenses. 41569. They were guilty of some infraction ? — They kept disorderly houses. 41570. Have there been any hotel licenses revoked ? — Not within my knowledge. 41571. Take the case of sale to Indians : were the licensees deprived of their licen- ses ? — There Iw.ve been very few and never a repetition ; a man once caught never repeats it. T do not remember any. 41572. Have you any reas<»n to believe that licensees sell during prohibited hours / — I have not. 41573. I think you have said tiiat there is no sale other than by licensees? — T fed sure of that. 41574. Do j'ou feel sure that there is no sale between 11 Saturday night and I o'clock on Monday morning ? — I think the by-law is well carried out. 41575. Do you think in the hotels there is no sale on Sunday ? — Hotels are alloweti to supply their guests. 41576. At the bar or in their rooms? — In their rooms. 41577. Not in the bar-room? — The bar-rooms are locked up. So far as I know myself, all the bars have screens. 41578. We found it a complaint in Victoria and Nanaimo, that although there wns prohibition of sale on Sunday, the bar-rooms were open and people sat in them ami smoked, and the people thought the law should be amended in that respect. But it seems from your statement that they are closetl here ? — I do not go round myself, but 1 know that in the "Colonial '' the bar-room is locked up entirely. 41579. Is that closing of the bar-room in compliance with the license law or with the municipal ordinance? — It is under our city by-law. W^e have a special charter for ourselves. We are working under a new charter obtained four years ago, and it is a special charter. 41580. Then you have some privileges that other cities do not enjoy? — Y'^es. 41581. In what tloes the present license law differ from the one preceding it ? One of the f>rincii)al points of difference is that there is more care exercised in grantiiii,' licenses. Tnere are precautions taken to carry out the law more strictly than was tiie ca-se under the old law, and its provisions are well curried out. 41582. Under the old system did you prohibit sale? — No. 41583. Do you think these different restrictions are Ijeneficial? — I do. 41584. Has the Sunday closing regulation had a beneficial effect on the city? — Decidedly so. 41585. Are there le.ss drunkanis noticeable?— Yes. AViLt.IAM B. TowNsirKM). 592 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 41 "il^G. TIkmv is less disdi'dt'i' tliiin tlii'i't- wiis t'tiniiei'ly ! -\i's. and ciiii'Cliict's n'|Kii't will bpiif nil' out ill tliiit stiitcmerit. U.")S7. |)(i you think it would he wt-U to limit still further the iiuiuher of licenses ;,'r;inted in New Westniinstei' .' I think we Inive enoUf;h for ii town of this si/.e. ■Ui"i88, rf there were too niiiny they would injure thenisehcs and some would lie forced out, I supjiose, for competition would he too keen .' Yes. ll">H!t. Have you observed, durini; your lonjj; stay in Hritish ('ulumhia, whelhei- there has been any jfrowini; chaniie in the drinkinji habits of the people ,'—Y«^s. llo'JU. Are there fewer people drinkinu', or are there nuu'e? There must be more, because there are more peojile here and |ii-etty nearly all take a drink once in a while. ll'iDl. Hearinji the increased )>o])ulation in mind, do you think the ratio of drink- ing is ;;reatei' now than formerly .' It is less, decidedly. n")y2. To what do you attriiiute that chaii<;e .' — There are more home.s now and society f^enorally is no doubt better than it was in IStii'. when the maJ4irity of tlu' [lopu- lation were miners, and very few women were here, and there wei'e very few homes compai'ed with the nundier there are now existing;. 41.")'J'5. You tliink home intluence has somethini; to do with driiikini.' habits J - Decidedly. 4ir)'.M. T'he churches, I presume. <^\ercise some intluence, and also temperance ;nid other societies? - Certainly. H.")'.tr). |)o you think there is a chan-je ifi the sentiment towards the (|iiid< tralliias it is carried on ! — Certainly, there is a chan;.;e. 4 !")!)(). What is the cliaiij;e ! — The temperance societies have exercised a unod deal of intluence here. 41")i17. They are pretty strong ?— Yes : one intluence has been todee|ieri the feeliui,' against the tratVic. 4ir)l)S. You nu'an they think badly of it ? Yes, that is natural. 4ir)'.>ll. Have they had any efl'ect on the coniinunity at large .' — ^'es : I tiiink lliey have to a certain e.xtent. 4160U. Y'ou said, siieaking about prohibition, that you weri' not in favour of prolii- bition yourself. Have you observed whether ilu-rt- is a urowing sentimi'nt in favour of prohibition in till! province .' I cannot speak nmi'li of the juovinee. foil have been in New ^Vestminster lately. In New Westminster' J ceitj'.inly do not think sn. lltiUI. Do you think |)ublic sentiment is growiie, in that direction.' 1 eertaiidy do not thirtk we want prohibition here. 41(102. Is ther'e a giowinu; feeling among the ]> 'ople in favour of nrore r'estrictions being pla(!ed on the li(|Uor- tr'atlic .'- -If there is, 1 .>ever' hear'd any expression given toil. 4I()U.'}. How did it come about that the ditrereiii r'estiictioris weie incr<'ased lateiv by the Legislature f— There was a feeling in favour- of it. Itefor'cthat law was enacted, .saloons had been kept o[>en all day and on Sunday. 4H)04. NVas that cliarii;e the result of public feeling being ag;iinst the present sys- tem? No, not specially on that account. I was a iiiembei- of the Council at thetinn' the bvlaw was passed : it was passed because they thought it would be good for'thecily. 4100"). Woukl that seem to indicate that ther-e was a public sentiment and a demand that more restrictioits shoulil be imposed, and that there should be a rest rici ion especially as regards sale on Sunday? Yes, you iiright take it in that way. Ht)0<). 'JMie Council I'ppear'ed to I'epresent public sci'timent in that matter? -Yes. I1G07. You s])oke about the impracticability of jirolii lition. I)o you object topio- hibition on pi'inciple, or' because it is impr'acticable .' I think it is iriiuraet in being duly sworn, deposed us t'ollowH : — - Jil/ Judye McDonald : 41610. T undiTstiiiMl you are Police Magistrate for the city? — Yes, and T am also .Justice of tile Peace for the district of New Westminster. UGI 1. How long have you resided in New Westminster / — Eight years. 4 161 '2. Have you lived anywiiere else in British Columbia? — No. 4161.'t. i)id you come from one of the other provinces ? — Yes, from the County of Peel, Ontario. 4 Hi 14. When you came to this province, wa.s the license law in force? — Yes. 41()1."). We undei-stand that some amendments have been maile ? — Yes, several. 41616. In the discharge of your otticial duties have you been called uj)on to inves- tigate and tiy cases of breach of the license law ? — I am, when such eases occur. 41617. How do vou find the license law to work here? — We Hnd it work very well. 4161s. Are you a membei' of the Licensing Hoard? — Not now, and I have not been since the new char-ter came into foi'ce, \ was for two yeai's. I was then Police Magis- trate and was a member of the Licensing Hoaid, but I have not been for the last 4 years. 41619. Plow long have you been Polite Magistrate? — Since 1SH7. 4162U. We have learned from the M-yor that you lla^■e .special privileges under the city charter, and a law for the closing of bar-rooms on Sunday in addition to the pi'ohibition of sale on that day? — Yes. 41621. Have you had many cases before you of breaches of that law ? — No, only one case since that by-law came into operation ; it was some three years ago. Tlie Sunday clfisiiig law applies to all branches of business ; there has only been one case in regard to the sale of licjuor on Sunday. 4162'i. How many cases of unlicensed sale have you had before you ? — We have had no cases of unlicensed .sale, that is to say in any unlicen.sed house. We had two cases of sale at the fair on the gi'ounds, but there has been no case in connection with any house. 4162;{. Have you had very many cases of sale to Indians? — A great many years ago that was one of the ditticulties we had to contend with. 41624. AVhat class of people are genei'ally guilty of that charge? — Persons charged are almost wholly persons whom you might call jail birds. 41620. They are not persons holding licenses then? — No. The only case in which a person hokling a license was charged with .selling li(|uor to Indians was five years ago. On investigating the case we found that the case was a false charge, and that the man I'efused to supply an Indian with liijuor'. Wo. even found that the Indian who asked the person to supply him with liijuor afterwards laid the charge ; but of cour.se he was not supplied. We found on investigating the charge in the police court, that there was nothing in it. 41626. Have you many cases of drunkenness brought before you ? — No. 41627. A'iewing this coinnuniity from your experience as a Police JIagistrate and also as a citizen, dct you think it is orderly and law-abiding? — Yes, very much so. 4162(S. Comparing it with other communities, how do you find it? — I think it com- pares veiy favoui'ably with other communities of the same size or with much larger cities. 41629. You investigate cases sent for trial to the assizes. I suppose? — Y'e.s. 41630. Taking that class of cases, do you find any proportion le of British Columbia on that subject, do you think such a law >voul(l be l)acked up by the people ? — That is a difficult (juestion to atiswei'. 41646. From your knowledge of the |)eople of Mritish Columbia and from your knowledge of the sentiment prevailing, ;5. Is ilit'i'i' a slati'iiit'iil. in aiitl also a iiuailt-rly report, 41(>")(. |)iM's it a|i{jt>iu' ill tilt rt'jMjrt to tlic ('laiiicil. H (')")'). Will it show wliat pi'i'(?('nta<,'(' cases of flniiikeimess bear to tlu^ whole iiuiiiber of oH'em^es coinin;,; before you .' You eaii tell that by lookini,' over the record, 4lti5(), I'lease til(' a copy of last year's repoi't, which will inchulo such a stateiiiuiit ? — There is a t'opy in the court. U(i57. I lin«l from tlu^ eo|)V here that before the police ciairt in l^lll, there wert? :;">'.) cases and of those \'A'2 were di-unks, or oiie-lialf of the whole. |)oyou think that is a fair a\'eia;,'e .' Yc-s, thins. Then I notice there are assaults, assaults with inli'iit to do ;;rie\ous bodily liarin, breache-* of the bylaws, disordei's on the streets, cruelty to animals, disturbing worship ill church, tij^htinj;, freiiucntiii",; houses of ill-faine, keepin;; such houses, ]ierjury, robbery, .selliii;; intoxicants to iiidiaiis. So it would appear that tliere were li'l' uses of drunkenness and \'.\7 other cases. C'an you tell what proportion of the IH7 case.-, were traceable to the drink hal)it and drink tratlic, directly or indirectly / -T will not under- take to j{i\e a correct statement, because I would only be ha/ardin;( an answer. 4H'>")'.). Can you tell the nuiiiber appro.ximately ? — It would only be a <;uess. HtHJU. Take th(^ eif,'ht va;,'raiits : would not any proportion be due to drink.' - Yes, 1 slioiild say so in ref,'ard to vagrancy. 41()<>1. Take the assaults : would any proportion of them be due to drink .' — Ye.s, very pi'obably. 4 ItiOl'. Take breaches of the bylaws and disorders on tin? streets .' - Yes, they would. 41()<).'i. Take flisturi)in>; divine worslii|), only one such case }ia\iii<,' occurred ; cases of fre(iuentiiijf houses of ill-fame, and there wer(! four of them, and there wtu'e three oa.ses of inmates and three of keepers. Were all those connected with the drink ; djii- id the drink habit ,' —1 could not say that ytai could char>^e them to diljik. lll>()b Mave your otlicers found on raidiiii^ houses of ill-fame that li(Hior vas always there? I do not think in regard to those particular matters that the report shows anythinii al)out liijuor. Ht)!)"). Take cases of larceny; would any be dut' to liipior .' 1 could not say. I do not think they would be directly traceable to li(|Uiir, although in some cases it might 1)0 so. I Ititii). Wiaikl it be within bounds to .say that .")U per cent of the cases would Ur in some way connected with the drink trade and habit? -It is altogether probable. 4I()()7. You spoke about IxMiig in Scott Act counties east. Were you visitiiiL; there, or were you staying there for any length of time? — So far as regards Duti'eriii, I was there for a visit, because 1 li\t'd just along the line outside the town. 41008. I thought you paid a visit there after you came west? — In one case it was a visit, but I was there for a consideral)le time. 410G0. Do you tliink, from youi' personal e.vperience during a lengthy pei'iod. that drunkenness inci'eased during the Scott Act ? -I am not preparetl to say there was any increase, but I know it was very common. 41070. Y'^ou have expressed the opinion that ))roliibition could not be enforced in Uritisji Columbia. Would you state bi-ietly your reasons for holding the ojiinion that it coulfl not be enfoi'cefl ? What .state of things exists here that would make enforcemciit dirticult ? -T said it wf)uld be ditticult. ]\Iy reasons for giving that answei- are these : in the Hrst place, our jKtsition here is one that makes it very easy to carry on smuggling ; wc have great oppf)rtunities here for doing that. 41671. I su}>pose there is smuggling of some clas.ses of goods now ? Yes, occasion- ally, l)ut I do not think very much. 4107-. There is smuggling of opium, I believe?- -Yes. 4107;^. I think they iiave that repeated in the far east? — Y(?s, smuggling is a bu.siness with some people. 41674. Do you think that some men would go into the business of snniggling liijuor. if a prohibitory law was enacted ? — I do. TnoM.vH C. Atkinson. 596 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 llt>7.">. I»n ynii siurt't'd pretty well Mitli tin- Suiidiiy proliiliit inn nt' ilir li<|U(ir tmdtj ? S|)ciikini; t'niiii iiu ntHciii! nl)S('i\ati<'f>, I sny yt's, licriiiisc we Iium' iki iiisi's licfm-f tli(> (•((Hit. H<>7t'). Nil ruM's liiivc licfii l)riiUL;lil lii't'iiir ymi ,' Nu. ■HG77. IliiM'yuu I'l'iisKii to U'lit'M' llml tlii'ii- is a tVciiin,' tiiiil liicii' me \ iiiliiliniis lit' tiic law, t'M'ii lliiiiij.'li no cases lijiM' lierii liii>ui;lil a;,'aiiiHt ctfVfiiders ? Viiii iiieiiii in tlie rily .' 11<)7>>. ^'(■s. I lia.f iici i-easoii tii tliiiik so. Iltu'.l. Tlii'ii till' law, Villi tiiiiik, is t'aiily well olisei'Ved ? Yes, sn t'ar as 1 kriiiw. lltiSO. |)ii Villi tliiiik that llie piilice lia\e jireat ditliriilty in seein;; llial the prnxi- >ii HIS of the law are oliserved f I do not think so: if there was an\' ditlieiillv tliev Would hriii;,' the parties into eoiirl, ill'tSl. Is the law observed lieeause of the yieat \ igilimee and faithfulness of the jiolice, or do liie licensees ol)ser\e the Sunday Closing' Act irrespecti\e of the police ','-- 'i'hat is hard to say. 1 should not like to say that it was altoi;etlier irrcs|ieci ivc of the police, and yet I would not like to say that the licensees make no sale on Sunday iiecause of the police. H'L'. Supjiose the police were less \ij;ilanl, would the Sunday Act lie as well oljser\cut .speaking from what I know, I have no reason to say no. Jii/ Jinhji' MrDoniihl : H(is;}. Are you a liarrister ! -T am. UtiSf. Take a prohihitory law, which ymi lielie\i' would he inipossihle of enforce- ment, what Would he the effect on the puhlic conscience of havini;' on the statute-lKiok a law that was persistently and freipiently violated '. Very liail ; lietter ha\c no law than one that is not observed. Jli/ J^'i: Dr. Mch-n,l: IKiN.!. Supposiriji the Sunday law here was flagrantly violated, would you think it well to rejieal it or to enforce it i Knforce it by all means. As supplementing my answer to the |ii'e\ious (juestion, 1 desii'e to mention that we ha\e an amendment to our license law whereby it is provided that the lii-ensee selling to any into.vicaled person whatever is liable to a fine and se\ere imprisonment : and nio'co\or we ha\e the Youth's Protection Act, which is of \eiy great service. ■IIOSO. ^Vhat is the limit of age f- Si.xleen years. 416!S7. Have you observed any sale of liipiorto bovs under I ti years '. \ think since 18i*'7, tliere ii;is only been one case under that Act. We have also another Act which is very beneficial, that is the Drunkard's Act, by which drunkarils can be interdicted and jilaced under the pi'ovisions of the Act for 12 months. Although that .Act has bi en in force fill' years —I am speaking from memory only I lia\eliad occasion to make an order out for only one individual case. 41()H(>!. Is that application granted on the ]. tition tlie application operation of the license law in this com- munity ? — In some p>ai'ticulars 1 have. 41705. In your opinion does it Mork satisfactorily ? — In some instances it does. 41709. What are the instances in which it does not? I think there should be n\ore restrictions placed on the licensees in regard toth iliipioi'sold by them, as to the(|uality, and as to tht! parties tf) "/iiom they should sell. 4171U. Would you favour, then, the rigid inspection i-f li(|Uor in licensed hou.ses ? — Yes, mosc assured!}. 41711. What is the difficulty as to persons t»> who! i sale is made? — In some in- stances they will sell to nu>n who liaxc already taken a <|uantity, and they cause tliem to become drunk. 41712. That is contrary to law .' I am speaking more especially of the disti-ict. 41713. Then you are not speaking of the city but of the (-ountry parts? — Yes, of the country parts. 41714. Have you had any experience of a prohibit:>ry law ? No. 41710. You ha\e not been in atiy country wiiere pi'oliibitiou was in r'orce / — No. 41716. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you believe if a general pro- hibitory law were pasicd for the whole |)*iniinion, prohibiting the manufacture, im))oi- tation and .sal'? of intoxicating li(jut)rs for beverage purposes, it ccaild be enforced ?--l do not. I tl 'nk it would be impossible to enforce such a law in British ('olumbia. TuoM.\s C. Atkinson. 598 f 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 41717. For what reason? — Tlie peoph- \vo\il(.l he able to set lii|iior tVom tlic Ameri- can side, and they would n\in> distil it and manufacture it fot- themselves. [Resides tiiat, the country is so larj^e that it .lould he impossible to enforce such a iaw. !•. (n-t the Indians north manufacture li(jUor for themselves. 41718. Are you accjuainted witli the northern part of the count i-v ? -Yes. with part of it. I have to go up there often. 41719. What do the Indians use in manuf.acturing the liquoi'/ -I beliexe sea-weed is used. 41720. In cfise of the enactment of a general prohibitoi'v law, do ndu believe that brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and ..lachinerv rendered u.seless ? — I should certaiidy say so. .61/ Rt'v. Dr. McLeod : 41721. Have you many Juvenile i)fl'enders hei'e ? — X'ery few population. 41722. Of those 60 offenders, for instance, how many would be undtn' 1 age 1 — I have only one boy. 4172.'{. 8o they are all old persons (U- persons between 20, .'?(!, ami 4tlf would be aljout ."5') iccordiiii,' tu the ■^ years of The average 41724. Do we understand you to .say that persons ;ire not sent to the provincial jail merely for being drunk I — -No : but for othei- offences. I have now some tommitted for trial on charges of murder, three or four cases, and a good manv cases of burglarv and selling whisky to Indians. 4172.^. And you have cases of petty larceny and such t)f!'eiices, I supj)ose .' Y'es. 41726. T understand that, in your opinion, the license law might be im]>r()ved. Do you think it would be well to limit the number of licenses granted in a town like this, even unTe than they are limited now? — I do not see that if you did so, it woulil make any difference. T do not think there are too miiny here. 41727. Do you find that incarccn'ated in jail here are any ])ercentage of thesis people who have freipiented the saloon when not in jail? — There are a few cases. 41728. Do you have many Chinamen iimong the prisoners? — A gofxl innny Chinamen. 41729. What are their off<'nces, generally speaking? .Mostly selling li(|Uorto Indians and i>etty larceny and assaults, especially assaults on one anoihei'. By Jiuhje Mt-Donnld : 41730. Take the j)ersons in jail foi' murder and serious crime : of what class aie they and what race? — At present we havt? an Indian rharged with killing a white man. and one Indi.an for killing anothei' Duliaii : and we ha\e also the ea'^e of a man and wife killing a prostitute or tin- keeper of a house of ill-fame. By Her. Dr. MrLeod : 41731. Do you know uhetlier tlie majority of tli<- men charged with si'riou^ ces or with l»etty offences that come under your charge, are addicted to the drink —I believe they all drink. 41732. l^o you have many total a.l)stainers incarcer.'i ted ! No, 1 liaxrliad i have had the IJlue Hil)br)n card taken away from them. 41733. Which class form the majority, the total abstuineis or tlie other ela should sny the other class. otl'e.i- iiaiiit J [ By Judge McDonald . 41734. Are you in a jRtsition to say which class is in tin nitv, total abstainers, those who drink immoderately, or those ration? There are very few moderati' dritikers in the jail. 4173;"). Then they ar(> mostly jjeople who drink immoderately come from the American side and wlio are tri vcOlers. 599 niiijoiity in this eommu- w ho liike li(|Uor in niiKle- Yes, persons w ho 1 i • i Hi 1 1 I,' ' ^^, K Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. If' -i i_ it WILLIA^I HOUSTON, of New Westminster, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : By Jndye MrDonald: ^ 417^56. ^^'hflt position do you occupy? — I am Chief Constable of thecity imd also License Inspector. 417."}". How long have you lived in British Columbia ? About 2 years. 4173i^. Where did you come fromf-From Manitoba. 417.'i9. How long have you Ijeen Chief of Police? -A year and a half. 41740. Wei'e you on the police force in Manitoba? — -Yes, 11 years on the pmvin- eiid and city force. 1 was on the city force in Winnipeg al)out o years. 11741. AN'ere you e\er in the North-west Mounted Police ! No, never. 4174'J. Taking this conniiunity as you have found it and with your knowledge of it and of othei' connnunities, do you believe that it is a sober and law-abiding coinuuuiity '.' — Very much so. 4174;}. You think it compares fav(jurably with other comnmnities ?- Yes, with any in which I iiave lived. 41744. Both as Licen.se Inspector and as Chief CVtnstable you are brought into contact with the people and the carrying out of the license law? Yes. 41745. How do you tind the law works here?- It works very well ; as well as it works elsewhere. 4174(). Is it worked .satisfactorily or not? The law is satisfactorily carrieil out. 41747. That is your experience as an official? — Yes. 4174S. Do the people in the trade conform to the provisions of the law ? -Yes. 4174!). Have you reason to believe there is any unlicensed sale of liipior going on in the conniiunity? No, 1 have not. 417'")0. We have heard of sale of liquor to Indians : those are individual instances. 1 suppose? Yes, but of those who have licenses at the present time I do not tiiink there is one who sells to Indians, 417r)l. As to the obser\ ance of the Sunday closing law, what is youi' experience .' - It is very well observed here. 4175J. ( )ur attention was called by one of the witnesses to an amemlment which he thought necessary, namely, in regard to having a thorough and fre(juent inspection of liquoi' made. Do you think such an amendment is necessary ? 1 1 might be a wise course to pursue. I have reason to believe that liquor is better here vhan in Ontario. 41753. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law? Yes, to some extent. 41754. Where? — In the Lake of the Woods district during the construction of the Canadian l^acitic l{ailway, at Bat Portage, where 1 was \}, years. 41755. Wiiose section was that / Mr. Heeney's. 4175G. He was the contractor? - Yes. 41757. Was it under prohibition provided by the Public Works Act .'-Yes. 41758. Were you an otHcer? — Yes. 41759. AVere you able to enforce the Act/ — No, it was iiiipo.ssilile. It 41700. AN'hat was the difficulty ? Smuggling. 41701. What class of people did the smuggling and men who made a business of it. 41702. What kind of liquor did they bring in? a great deal of ? Hailway men did poor quality -Li(|Uor of \ ery 4170."{. In what kind of vessels was it brought (-- In barrels, with meal packetl all round. Sometimes it was in barrels I'arried in front of the engine, and these would be ilrop|)ed off at different points. 41704. Did you faithfully endeavour to carry out the law?- I did. 41765. But you found it impossible to do so? -Yes. 41700. From your experience and knowletlge of this country, do you believe a prohibitory law could be etlectually enforced and carried out I Not if they had such a law as there was in Manitoba or the North-west Territories. Jt woukl be easy to bring it from the Tniteil States. WiLLI.XM HoLSTUN. 600 T ^m 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 417t)7. Wliut (It) you tliink al)out continentiil jiroliibitioii. Dn you tliiiik that could lie successfully cari'icd out ? T consider that tlicrc \vo illii-it niaiuit'iicture then. 417t)S. Have you any knowledge of illicit manufacture wliei'e you luivi' heen, in Manitoba and elsewhere .' —Yes. 41 769. liy whom ? By farmers. 41770. What did they use? — The only case that 1 really know jn'rsonaily was on .se\en years ago, and 1 do not know what was used. 41771. In case of the enactment of a general jirohihitory law, a law to iirnhihit the manufacture, im|i(U'tation and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverage ]iurj)oses, do you think it would be riglit to c(jmpensatt> brewers and distillers for loss of plant rendei-ed Useless ? — Yes. 4177:.'. From your experience as an oHicer, can you make any suggestion to the Commission as tn amendments in the license law that would render it more eU'ectivcr? — The license law here is very diHerent from that in Manitoba oi' ( )ntari(». No doidit a good many amendments could be made that would be etlective. I think the standard of holders of licenses should be put very high and the standard of accommodation should also be pl.'iced \ery high. />',// R-r. Dr. M<'Lr,„l; 1177.'i. Do you think it would be well if the sahions were all renuired to <'lose at night.' Tnder the liritish Ciihmibia licen.se law this does not appear to lie necessary, acco-'ding to the; evidence before us in Victoria and Manitoba. - -We i.'lo.se here at 2 o'clock in the morning. 41774. And o})en when? -Ojten again at G o'clock. 4177o. Would it be an improvement if they wei'e required to close earliei- here? — No. f do \w\. see that it would. 4177fi. !So tliey all keep open until L' o'clock .' No, very few of t hem keep open after 1 1 or 12, for business eea.ses and they clo.se. 41777. ^^'e had it in evidence in Wintiipeg from a gentleman who had a \ery large section of the Canadian Pacific Jtailway to construct. I think east of Winnipeg, that he enforced jirohibition on iiis .section during the construction period, and enfmxcd it etVectually. Mr. ^^ifton is the gentleman to whom I refer? — I lU'ver heard of it. Bij J nihil- McDiinnkl : 11778. He stated that with a constable he succeeded efi'ectually in enforcing i)ro- !iil)ition during construction t It was not dui'ing my time. I think tlieif were seven jMilice thei'e, and it was not done. /;.// Ix'ir. Dr. MrLruil: 1177!t. Is it your duty as Inspector to see that tlie conditions under which licenses aie granted are I'arried out ? -Yes. 41780. As to the Mund>er of rooms ? — Yes. 41781. In what other respects? To see that the houses are well kept. 1178L'. Do you \isit the places periodically! Yes, every month and .ilii.nst c\ci\ ^vcek. 4178.'i Do you tind t'uit some do not coni))ly strictly with the provisidos of the law .' — 1 have not found many yet. 41784. Do you iind it dilUcult to enforce the .Sunday clause of the law .' Not at all. 41785. Do the licensees do it ? -Yes, and the citizens sujipnit tluMn. 4I78G. In what way .' — Hy not jiatronizing them on Sunday. 41787. flax'e you had no complaints of violation of the law .' No. 11788. You therefore believe thei'e are no viulations.' I have reason to believe there are none. 41789. Do you visit tlu' hotels tu see whether the laws ale cniii|ilied with or not ' ■.- Yes. 41790. Are their bars closed! Yes. \\'lien 1 say closed, you must leincmlier thai there is no^prohibition against lights i)eing used, and therefore you would imagine fruiii the nutside that business was going on simplv because the bars are lightetl. (JOi Liquor Traffic — Hritish Columbia. 41791. Hut most of them have lights burning I No : some have and some have not. In some ca.se.s the barroom and tlie sitting-room are (ill one. with the exception of aboard partition running half-waj' up. 41 792. There are no folding doors? Yes, but they oidy go three-fourths of the way Uj My opinion is that the bur should be entirely separate from the rest of the house. . 4179.5. You think that would make it easier to observe the law ? — Yes. 41794. How many of the present licensees — and we understand they are 17 or 18 — have com[)lied with the requirements of the law which says that they shall olitain three- fourths of the signatures of the lot owners and married women in the neighbfmrhood ?- — We have not had any. 4179"). Then they were all old licensees ! — You understand that the hotels having over thirty rooms have not to comply with that. That rule applies only to those making new apjjlications for the first time. 41796. Has this condition to be complied with'/ — Yes. 41797. Have a certain numl)er of licenseivs complied with those conditions? — -No. 41798. Ho we are to understand that all had licenses when the law came into opera- tion ? — Yes. 41799. And therefore they are not to comply with those conditions? — I suppo.se so. 41800. Were both saloons in existence at that time? — T could not say. 41801. Did they have tf> comply with that condition?—! could not say. JOHN C. BKOWX, M.P.P.. ..f New Westminster, as follows . — on being duly sworn, depo.sed By J)id(jc, McDomild : 41802. What position do you hold ? I am postmaster. 4180.'5. I understand you are also a member of the Legislature? — Yes. 41804. For what district ? — For this city : during 1890-91 T was Mayor of this city. 41800. How long have you resided in British Columbia ?— Thirty years. 4180t). Did you come here from one of the other provinces? — No, from Ireland. 41807. Is this city an orderly and law-abiding one ?- Yes. 41808. Have you found any changes in the social customs of the people in regard to the use of intoxicating liquors. Was there more drinking when you came to the province than there is to-day ? — T think so. I am not, howeier, in a position to speak of that, because I do not drink myself, and am not as a rule whei'e drinking is going on. Still I think the answer of the witness who preceiled me put the case very fairly ; we have now an altogether dillierent state of affairs. Now there are more homes, the drinking now is more for good fellowship, at all events it does not conie out as plainly as it did in (he old days, iiesides, people who thought nothing of going to the l)ar antl drinking twenty years ago, would not do so now. 41809. Have the influences of church tn-gJinizations and tenqiei'ance .societies been favourable to the deci'ease in the drinking habits of the people' Yes, decidedly so. 41810. The Mayor said that in the eiirly days there was more drinking, because the surrourdings were different than they ire now ? Untloubtedly. 4181 1. You think all these elements have to be taken into consideration ? — Yes, for they all have their influences. 41812. You have stated that yt)u, yourself, are a total abstainer? Yes. 4181;?. Have you considered the (juestion of prohibition ? Yes ; but I should like to say .something, j)articularly in regard to that question about drinking habits, having special reference to New Westminster. I am very ghul to hear such strong testimony from the ofticials \)i regard to the moral standing of this city. I think it is only fair to attribute a good deal of this to our cliarter, which gives us a better license law than prevails in any other part of the province. We have more restrictions and they have WlI.MAM HoU.STOX. 602 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 taken a special form. There is a clause of the by-law by which no sal(X)n-keeper can be granted a license until the number falls below two ; in fact two is our maximum number of saloon licenses. There is another point I may mention in this connection. After tliat by-law was passed there were constant applications, even as late as wlien I was a mem- ber of the Licensing Board, to have the Bf)ard break that law ; there were applications made for saloon licenses which could not be granted under the Act. 418U. Take the license law as it is now in the city, does it work satisfactorily ? — It works umch better than the general license law of the province. 41815. Are you personally in favour of a license law as opposed to prohibition ?— No. 41816. You favour prohibition? — Yes. 1 do not know how fully you have entered into the matter. 41817. I do not wish you to go into the matter further.- I want to explain my reasons. I think they are sufficient to lead me to favour prohibition. I think prohibi- tion prom" J"^ to produce such satisfactory results as to warrant a trial of it as an experi- ment, i. . . ejection to the license law, and I have very strong objection to it, is because I .object to the connnunity deriving part of the public revenue from what I lonk upon as an improjier act, as licensing a trade which creates crime. 41818. So in principle you look upon it as wrong to license the liijuor traffic?— I certainly think so. 41819. Do you consider it an improper thing to do? — \'es. 41820. Therefore, on principle, you favour prohibition ? — Y'es. 41821. Do you consider, from your experience of British Columbia, that if would be practicable to enforce prohibition in this province? — I can speak very uncertainly in regard to most of the province, except with regard to New AVestminster and district. I have resided in this city for 'M \'ears, excepting thi'ee and a half or four years. Taking the people of tnis district as a whole, I think such a prohibitory law as you describe could be enforced as well as the Customs laws are carried out. 41822. How are your Customs laws enforced ? — Very well. 4182.'5. You mean as regards making people pay duty on articles brought in ? — Yes, and preventing smuggling. 41824. Suppose it would be possible to prevent, by a law, articles being brought into the eo:intrj', duty or no duty, could such a law be as easily enforced ? — It depends entirely on what the articles were ; you could not starve people. 4182"). Then you see there is a difference between the ordinary collecting of duties and preventing articles being brought in at all? My position is, that taking a n.-itional prohibitory law on the statute-book, it would be the duty of all loyal people to support that law. If that law was enforced by exery per.son whose dutj' it was to enforce that law, I think it could be enfoi'ced as well as other laws. I beliexe the public sentiment in New Westminster supports the license law more than it did at first. 41820. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law.' No, I have never lived in any prohibitory country. 41827. Do you know of any country in the woi'ld where such a law is in force? — No : of course I can only speak fr'om my reading and study. 41828. So it would lie an (\\.j)eriment? — Yes. 41829. An experiment well worth trying? Y'es, I think it would be well worth trying. What I mean '.. this, from all my reading. Of course I have not umch to do with that class who are acting under the license law, and legally so, but who have a vested interest and a financial interest in opposing a prohibitory law. I think that influence would, of coui'se, be \ery strong againsi the enforcement of such a law. Then we have a C(miniunity saturated with the idea that a certain (|uantity of li<|Uor is neces- sary, even many temperance people and moderate ilrinkers think that. So thert; we have it. When we have a diseased body we cannot expect that the application of I'enic- dies will be felt in a moment, but we nmst allow a little time. 418:iO. ,\s a member of the Legislature do you think the legislative body is repre- -sentative (tf the opinions of the people? — Yes. 418.'U. Supposing you had the constitutional right as u province to carry such a law as you wish, do you believe that the Legislature constituted as it is would carry such a law?- I think we would not do so now. 603 liiquor Traffic — Hritish Columbia. 41>>.Hl'. In cfiHC of the enactment of such ii liiw, a law to proliil)it the inanufactiii'u importation and sale of alcohoHc li(juors for i)evei'aj,'e ])iirpose, do you think it would be rif^ht, and just to remunerate brewers and distillers foi- loss of plant and maehinerv ren- dei-ed useless ! That is a questi(m T have not deeply considered, but the mt^n now enj^aj^jed in the liipior traHic are enf,'ajied legally, and therefore it would seem fair to me that they .should receive some compensation if their business was taken away from them, liut my answer to the (piestion you asked me a little while ago about our Legislature should be qualified in this way : I desire to explain that the L«>gislature represents f)nly one- foui'tli of the people of the province, because the repn^sentation is based on a system 20 years old, anfl the province has changed so that the large constituencies have small repre- sentation and the small ones large representation. So while oui- Legislature would act as T have indicait-d as at pre.sent constituted, it would attbrd no fair test. 418.'{;5. Has this (piestion of prohibition been made a test vote at any election? No. 418."J-1. So the people have not passed on it in any form ? -They ha \e not, to my recollection. % Bev. Ih: MvLmd: 41S.'5.5. If it were made a test ijuestion at the general elections, have you any idea what the result would be ? I could hai'dly answer that (juestion, because so nmch depends on the personal popularity of the candidates and upon ))ersonal considerations, for one ])arty jnight have a man who would not be elected undei- any circumstances and you might lia\e a man almost certain to be elected whatever his party. The.se considerations would influence the election vei-y much. 4I83G. 1>> you think it would be well to have a plebiscite taken h(!re as was done in Manitoba?- 1 do not really kn.'>w ; 1 have not considered the (juestion at all. 418.S7. But J understood you to say that the Sunday enforcement of the license law had created a pul)lic sentiment in tVvourof those restrictions? — As I undertand it, T think so and I feel it is so. I think the sentiment in favour of it to-day isstrongei' than when it was passed, that is I believe the majority recognize the benefit that it has conferi'ed. 41iS.S8. As a repre,sentative man and as a man who has oliserxed the busines.s affairs of the province, have you observed whr.t effect the li(|Uor traHic has had on the business interests of this country during (1 year!*? — I scarcely know how to answer that (piestion. I have known one or two cases where men failed in business becau.se they drank to excess. 41839. Has the lit' New NNVstiiiinster, nn beiiij,' duly swuiii, deiiosod as follows ;-- llif Jndritisli Columbia. -H842. How loii^ liave you resided in New W'fstiniiistor / In all for :{(» vcais, altlioufili T was absent for about 10 years. 41SH5. Did you come hei'e ori;,'inally fi'oni tlie niothei' country or from one of tlie province.s / f came heie from llie motlier country. 41844. Have you held any public position .' No. 4184"). Have you found this I'onnnunity, as a whole, law-abidinu and orderly.' — Yes, exceed in.tfly mk 4184(1. Ha\-e you considered the question of prohibition? Yes, lo a cei'tain extent. 41847. From your knowledije of the country, do you think a prohibitory law would be practicable of enfoi-cement in Itritisli Cobunbia .' Certainly not, unless voii wish to ruin the country. 41848. What would be the ditliculty .' .V u;reat jiortion of the peo[)le woidd leave. 4184i). In case of the enactnuuit of a i.reneral |)rohibitory law. do you think it would be rij^ht to compensate brewers and distillers for loss of plant and machin(M'y .' — Certaiidy. 418.")(). In case of the enact m(!nt of such a law as is sometimes su!,'<,'ested, a law prohibit- ing; the manufacture, imi)ortiition and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverajxe jiiirposes, the enfor(!ement of it would carry with it the ri^ht to search persons and houses throui,'liout the country. From your cxi)ei-ieiu'e of the province, do you think such a law could be carried out here '. Certainly not. 41851. You say you ha\(' lieen a l)anker .' Yes. 418r)2. Have you obsei'\-cd that the business interests of the comitrv have been aftected in any way by the li(|uor trathe .' No, F do not think it atlccts them at all. % AVr. Dr. MrLrnd: 418r).'5. Please explain what you meant when you saiil it would ruin the country? — • It wtadd ruin it, for a jrood many of the i)opulation would not live in such a countrv. A man who loves his liberty would not be dictated as to what he should eat and drink ; I for one would not. 418r)4. .So your objection is to the principle it invohes.' Yes. 418")"). Are the customs taws well observed here ( I believe .so. 418")(). F)o you consider it ri^ht to search personal bai.'<;ajiC iinde', the presents customs law '.- -I believt" so. 418.")7. There is search of person also ; Yes, and veiy object ional)le it is some- times. 418.")8. l)o you l)elic\e it would Im» well tu repeal that feature of the law ? — I certainly do. 418.")9. Would its repeal j)romote sinue;t,'linu' .' I do not think so. Suspicious characters should lie sean-hcil, but to s(Mrch e\crybody is ridiculous. 418(')(). How is the law worked now '. \ sutlicicnt number of ollicers are emplovetl, and they seem to enforce the law |iretty well. , 418(51. Parliament sees fit tcj enact such a law and the people submit to it with more or less grace, I suppose. Do you think they would not submit to a similar re(juirement in tin; event of jirohibition ? — I am sure they wotdd not. 418()L'. Have you obserxcd whether the drink tratlic has an injurious etl'ect on the community in any way I Not on this community at all events. 4I8();5. Neither upon individuals nor upon family lite, nor ujion business affairs ? -Of course there are e.xceptional instances. 418G4. Are the cases exceptional, or is it the rule? Certainly it is exceptional 4186"). How long were you numager of the bank ] — For 19 years, but not all tlu; time here. F was in California for 4 years. 605 Liquor Tratlic — British Columbia. Kev. EBKNEZEIl 1{< >BSON, of New Westminster, on lifin;,' duly sworn, tleposed ■as follows : — liij Jinhje MrDonald : 41866. With what church are you connected ? church. 41867. How lonj{ have you resided in Hriti.sh Columbia? wa.s absent durinf^ 1 2 years of that time. I am a minister of the MethfHlist -Nearly 34 years, but I 9 or 10 years altogether 41868. How long have you been in New Westminster ?- ^it different times, 41869. We have had placed before the Commissior *he deliverance of 3'our church which was given in 1890, in Montreal, I think? — Yes. 41870. Do you individually concur in that deliverance ? — ^1 was a member of the committee which prepared the deliverance, and voted for it. 41871. That is representative of your feeling on the question of prohibition? — Yes. Bi/ Jiei\ Dr. Mr Lead : 418713. From having lived .so long in British Columbia, I suppose you know the country pretty well? — Yw years. 41882. Under the Dominion (Tovernment ? — Yes. 41883. How long have you been in British C(»lunil)ia? — Thirty-si.x years. 41884. How have you found the people as regaols sobriety and orderly conduct ? — I have found them first class, except during otie or two years, dui'ing railwav con.sti'uc- tiou in this province ; then it was terrible. 4188;"). What was terrible then !— The drunkenness and the fighting. 41886. I suppo.se a new class of people were coming in ? — Yes. 41887. Did the province put nf) restrictions on them ?- -No, they let them fight away. 41888. There was no prohibitory law in force then 1 — No. 41889. There were a great many stiangers in the countrv at that time, 1 presumed —Yes. 418"J0. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you believe a piohibitory law could be effectually carried out, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic lifjuors for beverage pui'poses / — -I never gavt^ that matter any study. 41891. Then yf)u are not in a position to say / — No, I am not. 41892. In the event of the enactment of such a law, would you deem it right that brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery? — Of course if it was taken away from them, why not '! By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 41893. How long were you Indian Agent? — Eleven ye^-.rs. 41894. The .sale and giving of li(iuor to Indians are prohibitt^d, I believe ? -Yes. 41895. Do they .sometimes get it?— They do. 4189(). Does li<]Uor have any bad effects on them ? — It has very l)ad effects on them. 41897. Of coui-.se it was your duty to see that they got none, if possible ?- Yes. During those 11 years the work which the nussionaries and my.self did among them changed them very much. Take a community of (iO or 70 Indians, and you will find more dnnking Indians and drunken Indians among them than you will find among a corres}>onding number of whites. 41898. Are they changed so as not to desire drink any longer T-Some will go ;i!iy distance to get it, even to Washington Territory. 41899. But some of them are getting civilized, are they not ' take it on any account. 41900. You think it is a good thing to keep it away from them Some would not -I do. i '■■-'(■ 607 Liquor Tratlic— British Coimnbia. :\Ii(,s. MAIilANNK CIJNXINCJHAM, of New WestininstiT, ..ii \»-\n<; duly sw,.i n, (leposi'd as follows :- - Bi/ Jiulge McDiiiKihl : H'.tOl. }low Kmi,' haw you lived in New WeHtuiinstcr ,'— Tliiity yi'iirs. 41!)()-. Did you come lnMo fi'fuu Olio of the other provinces;- I cunii- lien" tVinn Ontai'io. hi/ Jill'. Dr. McLend: \\W.\. We understand that ynu are President of the Women's Ciiristiaii 'reiiiiier- ani'e I'nion here ,'— Yes. H!»01. How lonj; have you heen connecteil with tiie iniion ? — Ten years. HiXJo. What branch i>f work does the union carry on iier'e ?- -We conduct service in the jail here every Saljl)ath ; we conduct a mission and look aftei' the social evil. 41!)0tl. You do rescue woi'k, I presume l — Yes, and we have a home in N'icioria. 41'JU7. Speakinj,' of tlie rescue work, lio you find that the unfortunates who ask tor help are addii'ted to the drink habit .' -Ttiey all are. 4lV>US. Do you find, in rei,'ard to your work i?i the jail, that a larj;i' perceTitaire of the jirisoners are victims of the drink habit ,' I think they all are. I think it i~; the one thinjj that drives them back to their bad habits as soon as they have i-efornied. They fall in with their old coini)anions as soon as they ;j;et out of jail, and are liable to return a<;ain. 41!)0l). As one living in this community for so many years and active in this work and observant of what is ijoiiij; on, will you tell us brielly what are your oViservation-- of the effects of tiie drink habit and the drink tratHc on the connnunity in regard to its morals and its effect on domestic life and on young |)eople ? — J consider it is an unmiti- gated evil everywhere. There is no home in wliich li((uor is used that is not worse for the people using it. In a great many of the homes with which we ha\e to do there is gi'eat want and misery caused by tlrink. 41910. Do you find tiiat most of the want andpo\erty with which you have to do is traceable to drinking ? — Entirely , so. If it were not for drinking there woulrl be no jmverty ami want, for tliere is plenty of work foi' every man in this country who honi;stly desires it. 4191 1. Do you find the childrtMi brought up often become victims to drink owinu to the drinking habits of the parents .' Yes, the tendency must be in that direction. 41912. What is the position of your oiganization on the question of prohibition .' — We believe in pi-ohibition direct. 41913. Your Union has made a deliverance to thatett'ect 1 — Yes, we liave, associated with our ert'orts in sending petitions to the Dominion Parliament. 41914. Do vou think the prohibition sentiment is growing in this conmiunit v '.' 1 think so. 4191-"). Have you or 3'our society obsei'vcd the working of the license law here, whether it is satisfactory or otherwise? — I consider it is very unsatisfactory in a great many ways. 419K). In what respects? — Because, as wa* observed a few moments ago, all the licenses were granted a great many years ago, so that the licensees do iK)t consider the feelings of the |)ublic at all. If these same licensees were compelled to obtain the signatures of two-thirds of the lot owners and married women, they would not find it possible to obtain them. 41917. So you understand that under the present license law, you lia\e no j)ower at all over them 1 — No power over them whatever. 1 also consider that the liipioi' ti-ade as such should be separated entirely from the hotel, that it should stand on its own basis the same as any other legitimate business. If it is considered legal, it should stand alone, and when a man goes there to drink he should go there to drink and shoulil not be considered one of the guests of the hotel. Mus. Mari.wne Cunningham. 608 \\ if til lii lil tl'Ulll i 57 Victoria. Seesional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 41918. Tliiit suggests the ((uestioii as Ixawecii saloon and liotcl : which do you consider to i)e the more dangerous to the coininunitv f — 1 think the hotel is tlie nion- dangerous. 4191'.». You have expressed yourself and also tlie feeling of your society in favour of prohibition. Have you given thought as to the matter of granting compensation to brewer and distillers in tiit^ event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law I -Yes ; I have studied that matter. I think t lie trade has n<> more right to be compensated than any other business. Jii/ Judye McDonald : 41920. f think you said lliat there was not a home in iN'ew Westminster in which liquor was used that some injui-y was not done l— Certainly, because people cannot use li(|Ui , without wasting their money. It i pois 21- .•i9=i=* 3 609 ^,. Liquor TialHc — Hiitish Coliiiubiu. Tilt' Uoyal Ci)iiiniissi(iii dii llic riit|Uiii' Trullii! met lioir tliis dav. J'ri'Sfuit : .K'lxiio McDoNAi.n. 1{kv. I Mi. MrLi;or). FHKD. CoPK, of Vancouver, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; — Jii/ Jtidiji' McDonald ; \\\yi',\. What is your business ?- -[ am a merchant, and 1 am also Mayor of \'aiicouvei'. 4l!)"J4. How loim have you lesided in British Coknnbia / 1 came lien- tour years ajio last September. HUlT). Did you come here from one of tiii^ otiier proviiiiu's ( I came here from Ontario, nt*'_M>. Ki'om wiiat part ' -Krom Xorfoll;, in Simeoe County. I1!)1'7. How Ion;; ha\(' you been Abiyor of tiiis city? — Tiiisis my first year ; I 1 uc iieen Mayor since last January. 4l!tJ8. Are you elected as >biyor directly by tiie people ,' Yes. H9L".>. Takin;^ the city as you find it, do you consider it an orderly and law-abidiny; connnunity / — Yes, very imich so. U!)30. Will it compare favourably with other cities with wliich vou are acquainted ] -I think so. 41931. Y'oii base, 1 suppose, a very mixed population here and ditl'erent nationalities are represented pretty well? — Y'es, very cosniujiolitan. AVXVl. What is"tlie population ofthe city in round li^'ures (Over -JO.OUU. Hil.">."5. What would be tlie pi'oportion in round ti;i,'ur(>s of the Chinese here / — I think 1,001) would be i!orrect. 4iy;{4. I believe you have not many Indians in the city t— No ; they are on the i'eserves, 41935, 1 suppose at certain seasons of th»! yeai' you have (piile a .seafaring popula- tion here ? — We have all the year round ; there are alwavs (i or lt( vessels li<'re from all parts of th(> woi'ltl. 411t."l(). Is the city constantly ijrowinj^ and increasin^j; ? Yes, very rajiidly. The Couunissioners must have seen, in drivinj; around, the many new buil(lini,'s that aiv going up. ^ 41i(.'$7, Y'ou are under the license law of the pi'ovihce, I suppose ?■— Yes. 41!).3S. Are you a License Commissioner by virtue of your ottice '',- — Y^es, 4H);. Are you Chairman of the Boai'd ! — Y'es, 4lil40, How do you tind the license law to work here? — I think it works all right. 41!)41. Do you remend)er how many licensed places thei'e are in the city? — o;") retail, !S saloons, 0;? licenses, and there are some (J or 7 wholesale places. f 41942. WV have found in cities in British CJolunibia that there are licenses which are said to be perpetual almost in their nature, so that men who held licens(!s before the license law, or the new law, if they conduct themselvc^s properly, have merely to come and pay their fee and nothing is said ? — That is not so in this city. They have to ))ossess certain qualifications, and the Tnspect'ir goes rouiul and sees that these are carried out, ^j^ Fhed, Cope, ♦ : i. 610 ^ 67 Victoria Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ll!>4.'i. An- tlicit' no liotf'l or Miilunn lt* liiivinjj Imtii in the triuli' tor MO loii^', liHVc not to t'ultil iht' iiuiiiiicnii'iits of tlic liiw as ifyiinls itttcpiiytTH .signing; tlicir iippliciilionH for licence ( I do not think hir), Have you liiul any such politions Ijeforc you T — Not this year. 4194*). llavt! you a special charter hero f — Yes. 4li)47. Have you such charter from the Provincial Legislature/ -Yes. 4l'.)4H. You have power to make l>y-iasvs for tiie citv I Yes. 4I!>4!(. Do you think the Sunday closing law is well observed I -Yes. 41950. Have you reason to believe that there is unlicensed sale of li(|uor in this city? — I have no reason to believe so. 41951. Is your (Jhinesf^ |)opulation a s(»ber one? Yes. 41952. l>o you know whether there is any sale made to Indians in the citv .sometimes? ThertMnight be, but Ncry seldom. 4195.'}. When sales do occur, are they made by licensed dealers or by outsiders ', — They are mostly made by outsiders, in fact I have not heard of a ca.se this year of a licensed d(>aler .selling li(|Uor to an Indiaii. 41951. We understand that in this city you are making provision for the recreatio!" of the people in the ilirection of |)t'oviding small parks for people and other improvi • nients ? Yes. 41955. Are there othtu' places (»f recreation wlic'i'e the public can go without goinj', to the parks? — The park is tlit! oidy place w(! have at jiresent. We an- making a park in the east end, but we have just got started. The park we have at lirockion I'oint is the only j)ark we have at present : it is the Standarcl I'ai'k. 4195(). Have you had any experience of u ])rohibitory law? — ^1 have. 41957. Did you have that exjierience in the C'ounty <.*' Norfolk >-— Yes. I was also in a parish where the Dunkin Act was in force for oie year. Norfolk was under the Scott Act for three years. 4195S. What was y(»ur experience of the Act .'—It was vt!iy un.satisfactory in those counties. 41959. How was it under the Dunkin .Vet in the township f .Just the .same. I had ont^ of the leading busines.ses in Simcoe, The Act did not .stop the .sale (»f li(|uor, in fact T think it added to the number of places that .sold it. The people would not get it openly, it was done on the sly. 419()0. Then the eflect was not foi' good? — No, it was not. .\t the i-nd of the tio'ee years it was (lro|)ped. 41961. Have you had experience of prohibition in any other country ! No, that isall. 419t)2. Take British ("oluml)ia as you have known it, do you think it would be practicable in this countiy? 1 could not say : but as regarrls the drinking habits of the p(M)ple, I do n(tt think we are any worse than any other ]>eopl('. 419().'5. Take your country with it^ geographical positiofi anil \ast coast line, do you believe you would be able to keep li(|Uor out, supposing a law wci'e enacted prohi- biting the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liijuors for beverage purposes? — It would require a lot of policemen to keep li<[U()r out of the jirovince. 419()4. You understand that such a law wou'il carry with it the right of searching both house and person in order to ascertain tiiat no li(]Uor was being smuggled in? — I am judging New Westminstei' by the experience that I had of the .Scott Xvi. Liijuor under that law came in in all shapes. The first week probablj half of the people did not sell, but after that they sold, and more places stalled u|). The hotels were compelled to raise their prices. One gentleman, who w;is a strong supporter of tlie Act when it came in, was in a hotel and was charged 10 cents more for the meal than lie had paid the preceding week. When he found that it was because of the Act, lie wanted it repealed. Liquor, liowever, was sold all the same. 41905. Do you know anything as to tlie ([uality of tlie liquor ?— It was the same as before ; 1 did not hear that there was any diti'eience. 1 21— 39|** ) (Jll Liquor Tiaftic — British Columbia. 41966. You ha \t! said that y'>ii •!<> n"t think the th'iiikiiii; iiahits ot' tlie pcopK" exceed thos^ ')f jHM»ph' elsewheiv ? — Yes. 11967. Are all tlie chuirhes and tcnijx'rance organizations working on teni})ei'aiice lines? — Yes, they are '.'a in excellent shape. 41908. Taking your population iiere as a whole, ai'e they people from t'ore.gn I'ounti'ies? — No, thei'e are more people liei'e from the east ; this is a Canadi'iu city. ■U969. Are there any suggestions you could uft'er to the C mnnisslon, from your frience, in the direction of amending the present license law? — I do not tliiidc so. . xprriv...^v., ... .... ,...^. «. f, ■■■• I'--'' >'■■■■• • ■" ...V ..v.. We went into the matt(!r careAdly last spring, and maile such amendments as were We have I '2 men. necessary. 41970. How strong is yoni' municipal police force? 41971. And a chief constalile? Yt'.s, and a sergeant. 4197l'. Are tiiere any pi'ovincial police ln:re? — Yes. we ha\e one man. Jii/ lirv. Dr. McLnd : 11973. We understand that N'ancouvei' is under the provisions of tiie license law ,' — Wn have a s|)eeial cliarter, and we make a 'icen.se law of our own. 41974. Is tliei-e any way in wliicli the numbei- of liccises can he limited J —We have ")") licenses now, and we cannot ii.cri'ase the numher until thei'c is an increase in popula- tion. 4197-'). Has the Board of t!onunissii>ncrs disci'ction in issuing licenses? — Yes, they have that power. 41976. Dues the Ij'iard use discretion in isseing licenses to saloons ( "N'es, we ha\t' ight at jMcsent and wc cannot have auKtlier mitil the population increases. 41977. Have you regulations in regard to closing after ceitain hours f Yes, they close at 1 1 o'clock and on Sundays. 41978. At what liour do they close on Saturday?- -The same iiour. 41979. And open on Monday mor'ning at what hour ? — -At ti o'clock at one time, hut 1 think the hour is •_' o'clock now. 41980. We noticed on the Island that the ord\ prohibition as to hours was from •II on Saturday night until 1 o'clock on .Munday morniiiy. and the licensees could keeji open all night on week ('ays :' Yes. 41981. Have yon, as a btisiness man, ol)ser\ed what is the effect that the litpior tratlic has on trade interests and on the social con(htion of the ])eople? — 1 do i;ot kni>w that it all'ecls us here tie same as anywhere else, because the business ukmi are too bu.sy to drink nuuih. 41982. There would seem to lie a great deal of drinking in connection with bb ])lace8?— You would think so. Tiu'ic is iiowever atloating population always coming her'e, arul they do the most of it. I thirdv it is as ([uiet hei-e on Siniday as in Toronto. llil'^.'i. I5ut taking the (|uestioii in ;• ()i.„id v.;iy what do you think is the effect of Is it good or- bad, beneficial is not woi'se heri^ than anv- the li(|Uor tiM.tlic on the business inte.csts of ,i conmiui.ity or nijunous ; where elpe. 1 should sav th;'! it is beneticial ; at leasi liji Judif McDonnld : • 419S4. You have said that in Xoi'folk they had to increase the price of meals to make u}) for tile loss of the bar, iind that when they did so, there was opposition? — ' iH'i-e was opposition raised at once by the vviy men wlio advocated the Scott Act. 1198.''). 1 n the event of the enactment of a geii' ral prohibitoi'v law, do you think 'lire biH'wers and distiller's should be c()m(ieiisate(l for loss of plant and machinery? — I should say that in justice they should be compeiisMt(Ml. ir :iri / Khko. C'oi'k. 618 i. 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 law .' THOMAS F. Mt'Cil'lUAN, of \'iiiif.woi-ii. dcj-ost'cl as t'ollows : — /)'// JiuUjf Mr DoiKild : H'.KHC). What position do you occupy? I am ("ity (Jlcik of X'ancoiivci-. I11IS7. You aic appointed hy tlic (^ity (/'ouncil, I siippos(!? Yes. ■tlUS>*. llo\\ loni; liaNcyou resided in l.ritisii I'oluuibia .' Ki,i;lit years. 'Mi)8'.». Jla\e you li\ed all tlu; time in N'ancouNcr? \n, T was jiart of the time in the mountains, at Donald and Fairweli. Ull'.tO. Did you come liere from one of the otiu'r |iro\ince.- .' h'lom the Norlh-westr Territories, orii;inally frnni I'erth in Ontario. I have li\ed in the N'orlh-westTerritories and Manitoba for' tliiee years. ■U'.MII, Do you tind this cuinminiiy a sohi •■ and law ahidini; one: ^'es. I iO'.t^. Have you any duties to perform in connection wi;'. the license law .' No, I iia\i' notiiin,;,' to do witli it. I lll'.l.'i. You do not recei\f the license fei's .' The City Tteasur<'r ,1,'ets them. 41'.Mt|. .S])eakiii;;' as a citizen, do you ihinU the law works satisfaclorilv ' 1 think it does so heie in comparison with other places. -Hi)'.)'). Hav(^ you observed \\ hetlier the Sunday closinu law is obserM'd.' ft is observod very strictly as fjii- as it i^oes ; the tow n is oideily (jti Sunday. Hl)!)('). From your knowled<,'e of l.ritish Oohnnbia, do you think it would he |)ractic,ibl(! to enfoi'ce a general prohibiiory law [ I do not believe it would. H'.t'.IT. What would be the ditliculty .' My experieni'e of places where liipuir was ])rohibited was, that there was almost any aui.iunt on hand and it w.isof ihe cheapest (|uality ; and further, that there was mor<' of it drunk than when there w as a license law . ll'.l'.tS. Was it cheap to the buyei- .' It was of cheap (piality and hiiih |irice. I limit. Was ',, pom' i|ualil \ '. — It was \ ei\' poor; most of tlie liijuoi- wa> mixed with water. Il'OOU. 'I'hal was your e.vperience ? ^'es, in the Norlh-wesl Teiiitories, and also in the mountains, whei'c liipior was brounhl. arid where no licenses were I^suimI duT-in^ lail way const ruction. ll'OOl. On what part of the road .' .Vl Donald and also at Lay;L;an. t20()-_'. Was li(pior prohibited unde ■ the I'ublh- Works Act .' S'es. 4200."{. Was li(jUor biouLiht in ( ^'es. it was brouyhl in b\ diU'erenl means from the south |l."'l)J. V 'ere eflort> maile to stop it .' The police were on the watch the whole time, liut couiii not previ'ut it connnjx into the country. 12v)Ur). Was the (pialily of Ihe liquor brouuht o\cr the mouniains of the jioor cpial ity of whi"h you ha\e s|)oken '. ^'es ; as a rule. 420U(i. Was any ellbrt at concealment made in ifj^ard to biiiininj; it in '. (Jeiierallv it was br'ouifht in under coxer of ni;,dit and by the most unfieipienled paths. I'JOOT. Was it concealed in packai^es containinu other ^oods ! In buttei ke^s and all thai sort of tliint;. D is also brouiiln in in the shajie of Uibles, etc. 4L't)0S. Of what material were the vessels made ' ( If I in. iL'OOi*. You mean the\ wer'e \»'ssels made to look like iJiblcs ' ^'es 4"_'0I0. You say that a sindlar state of thinifs |)re\ailed in the mountains '. \ v^. Il'OI I. Was the lii]uor brouitht in from the I 'nited States, or froni partsof Canada, or from both.' i>iipioi' that came into the Xorth-wesi Teriitories i,'eneially came from WiniM|)euld otherwise have arisen '. \ liad experience ill that country, and I found that th(Te was any ijuantity of li(|Uoi' consumed. 42017. Speaking about liquor lieing brought in in the shap(! of IJibles: was that general ! — It was not general, but it was brougiit in in that way. 42018. Was there a great deal of disorder amung workin'jiiien during tlu; con- struction period ?- Certainly not. 4201!). Tlien order was ij'ii'.y well maintained ?-- Yes. 42020. It was only in the to'iis where li(|Uor was sold as a rule, not wlierethemeu Were working : they would have to come to the towns in nrder to get li(|Uor ? Yes. 42021. ])id the men'drink sufficient liipio • to cause them to neglect their work ? — There were individual cases of that. 42022. Speaking al)out liEOR(!E .V. .I0R1).V\, of N'anciijver, on beingduly swoin, deposed as follows ; — Hj Judge, McDmudd : 42024. What po.sition do you occupy f- lam T'olice Magistrate for the city. 42025. Are you also a .lustice of the Peace? For the disti'ict. 4202(). How long have you resided in British C'oiumbia ^ -Nearly four yoais, at all events over three and a half years. 42027. Did you comt^ here from one of the other pioviucesf I'luiii the town of Lindsay, Ontario. 4202S. Are you a banister? I am not a barrister in this province. 42021). Voiir appointment comes from what authority? I'rom the Pio\iiKial Government on the recommendation of the City t!!ouncil. Formerly the apjiointinent was made liy tlie City Council, liut the proxinci- took over tlie ap]iointment of Police ^lagis trates last year. 420.'i0. Do you lind this coiniinmity to be a sober and law-abiding one? 1 do. genei'ally speaking. 420."il. How does this eommuiiity compare with coiniininii. i-jist ? it compareN most favourably. 120.'52. T mean with similar communities in eastern Canada ? Yes. 420.'}."!. I sujipose you found a ditlerent iiopulatioii here? Yes; we lia\e a \ery cosmopolitan jiopulation here. 420.'5I. I[a\e you many seafaring men hvre; Y'es, (|uite a iiumbor / 420i'}ri. You have also ([uite a Chinese population, 1 suppose? Y(!s. 420;}f). Have thei'e l)een many ca.ses of drunkenness among them !- -No, 1 do not think there has l)t>en any case of drunkenness liefore me on the jiart of the t^hinese. not. that I remember. 420.37. I^ocs the annual report of the police authorities show the number of cases coming before your Court and tlie number of otlences ? —There are also monthly imports mafic up by the Clerk of tlie Court. Thomas F. McCrnJ.w. 614 % i 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 (-•(111- 4'20.'iS. Taking tlii' iiuiiiljer of ca.sps th.it come betoro you as a wlmle, wliat pro- j>ortion of the cases would he oases of (h-unkenness? — I sliould think the pidiinitinn would lun fi'oiii no to 7") per cent, say ()0 j)er cent. I'iU.'U). Of the cases outside of those charged witli diunkenncss, what per cent of the cases wnuld he indirectly due to it .' I refef to cases ut' disorders ,inil assaults, iS:c. ^ — There are a good many due dir(>ctly. hut I could not give a percenlage uf those due indirectly to it ; there are a good many due in that way. 42040. Are you a Licei.se Conunissioner ? — No, I am not. 12011. Speaking as a citi/;-M, how do yon find the license law to work here ' X'eiv will, 1 think. 1 ha\e had one or two cases of \iolation since 1 came on the IJeiuli, hiii they were with respect to tiie Sunday Chjsing Act. 42042. Where those latterly oi' on the inct^ption of t!ic law.' .\i almut tin- ince])tion of the law t)r a little later. 4201.'3. Have you I'cason to l)elieve that ther-' Is unlicens •(! sale in tiiis citv ? There ha\e heen no cases before us. ( )f course there might bt ome tii.it I do not know of. 4204 b You have had no prosecutions before you ? No. 4204."). We under.stand that your ])olice force consists of 1 1 men .' Yes. I201r0. Do you consider that is sullicient for the work they liaxciodo' llarosed to do so. 420r)l. If breaches of the license law occur, are they su|iposed to infoiiii the Inspector/ Yes. T do not know whether that is on the orders or not. 120.'')2. Have you had any experience of a prohibitoiy law in any country .' \o. 1 was in till' (.'ounty of N'ictoria when the Scott .\ct was in f.tri'c. l.'O");). How did it prohibit there.' Very poorly. 42054. What was the tiouble .' Th.cre was as much lii|nor drunk as w hen tiici !■ was no ]iroi)ibitory law i'.i force. 12t)ri."). Was there any sale of li(|uor? \''es, nearly ail the hotels sold ;iud many other places which had nevi'r sold before. I20")(i. How long was that Act in force .' About three or four years. 42O07. Was it repeali'd at the enil of the term and at the tirst oppoit unity t he the people had? -Y'^e.s, it was repealed. 4205s. Taking Hritish Columbia as you know itanil considering its position and its population, do you beliexc that a general |irohibitory law could be pi'aciically enforced h(.'re / I do not think it would In- practicable to enforce prohibition ; I do not think it could be doiu'. 42059. What ditliculties would be in tlw way here ? Intlielir-t place, wc.iri'too near the l)oundary. There are a great many \essels coming in and out of the couhtiy also, and the country is so laige, I thiid< there would be a lot of illicit stills establisheil all over the country, and it \vould re(piire a largi' force of men to look after such a law. 42(M(0. You understand that what is meant by proliiliit ion i-^ the ]irohibition of the manufacture, importation anil sale of alcoholic liipiors for beverage purposes, \\hich would be accompanied \)y the right to search |)ersons and houses? ^'es, that is what 1 'thought of as pr\. 4201)1. |)o you think in the event of the adoption tif a geiicr.il prohibitory law . brewers and distillei's shoidd be compensated for loss of plant and iiuichintMy .' I do, ceilainly. They are carrvingon a legitimate business. s^ A'// A'''-. Pr. MrL,;„l . 420ti2. ("ould you fiirni-'h the Commission with youi' coint reiMird .' I could. 42eforc vou weic for drunkenness puri' and simple.' Yes. 615 i^ liiquor Traffic — British Columbia. 42004, I suppose youi- nicii flu not iiiTcst iiuiii wlio are drunk it' j;oiui;' Iiouk- p<'^'.ccably ? — I do not think they are exempt tVom arrest, beuause tlie terms of the Statute must he complied with. t'iOd"). But you liave no powei- to impose ]ieiialties upon them for sim[)h^ drun- kenness ! — No, I liave no such jxiwer. 42060. Of the other eases eominu' Ijefore you, what percentage wi.uld he due indirectly to the liipior traffic aiul habit '. - I .sliould think l)etween iOand lo per cent. I have not, liowever, calculated that, hut merely estimated it. 420(57. Has there been an increase or decrease in the numi>cr of offences coupled «ith inebriety during your term of office ? — \ think if anytiiing ther:! has been a decrease, or the number' stands nearly the same. 42008. You spoke about the order and sobriety of VanciuNer as eom[iared wit h other coninninities. To what other coinnninities did vou refer .' I referred to lonnnu- nities in tlii^ east. 12000. Did you mean cities and towns ' Yes. 12070. Say Toronto .' -Yes. 12071. You have said thatothcially you lia\c no kno\\'.'dge(.f any ili'-it salegoingon ill this city ( As a citizen, have you reason to believe tliere is any going on '. — Yes, I have. 42072. Have you reason to beliexc there is illicit sale by licensees, sales during I inhibited hours '! - Such I'ases have not come within my kiiowledife. I207.'i. You have spoken about the Scott Act having been in force in Ontario. T" what do yt>u attribute the weak enforcement of the law .' 1 think the authorities did all they coidd, but there seemed to be something against the law. The hotels sold and some of the parties were fined and imprisoned, and some peoj)le who had lu'vei' solrj before sold then, and they would start tip little places in one way and anuther. 42074. Do you think the prohibition of the diink trade in thise places increased the drinking? — I think pe )ple wanted to drink more. 12075. In sfieaking of the im|iracticabili*\- of prohiliiting the li(|Uor sale in P>ritish Columbia, you mentioned the boundary line. I^ yoiu' \iew of the im|)racticability based upon your knowledge of attem))ts made to enforce a jirohibilory law in other piai'cs, or your knowledge of this country '. iJoth. The country is such that it is xcry easy to lutho- aw, it is very )e broughf in ■juuiggle, and we are aware that smuggling of opium goes on. and although thi rities on the otht i' side of the line are also endeaxouiing to enforce the difficult to stop the traffic. 1 do not see why alcoholic liipior cou d not Yes, 1 beliexe so )]iium connr.g in ( Xo, Tdo the same as opium is brought in to-day 42070. ()[)iuin snniggling is successftilly carried on. J beliext 42077. Of course th(M-e are seizures made ! (,(uite freipientl}'. 42078. Do you think it wculd i)e well to repeal ^he law prohil)iting in, and pass a law to allow it to come in, and so avoid ha\ ing it smuggl<'( not thiidc it would be well to allow ojiimn to come in freely. 42079. What notice do you think it would be well to give brewers and distilleis in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law for Canada ? It would be very difficult to judge in regard to that matter, because some nf the peo]iIe in the trade might have a very much larger stock to dispose of. 120S0. So you refei' to machinery and plant .' I ((juld hardly say. Not being in the business, f could not name the terms. 12081. You think that at all events some notice should be given them? Y'es. 42082. Do you think that bi'ewers and distilli'rs carry on business only from year to year. Does not that put the matter on a dift'erent footing from other businesses, and should they iuive sfiecial advantages granted them .' Not more than other businesses. 4208;?. Fs it not a fact that a change in the larifV sometimes causes loss to people in difl'erent businesses or trades t — Y'es. 42084. Have they not a right to receive compensation f - They cannot all get, com- pensation very well. I do not belie\e they could be compensated. Bji Jiuhir Mrl),inald : . 'f 4208"). Tn the case of the tariff law, you understand that legislation is indirect aiui is not levied at individuals^ It is not levied at individuals. (tKOHOK ^\. ■Ioiii).\N. * ( 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 4:iOH(). Do yiiu not I'oiisidci' tlial; Ijrs'wiiiLf .v.ul distilling jiro en h (lilFt'icnt t'ooiiii!,' iVom other bu.siiicsses, and tliat thcfcfort' the hreweis and distillers should n-ceivi' com- pensation 1 — Yes. 42087. You iii'e doubtless awai-c that tlie hrewiM's and distillers aic ie(|uii-ed to put in speiial machinery whenever the law dem inds it, and distillers are further rei|uireil to keep tlieir li((Uor in stock for two years for- reititication purposes '. 1 aui aware of that fact. 42088. In the case of opium, is opium adinissihie after duly has heen paid ?-- CVi'tainly ; it is a case of revenue in rcyard to opium. ^20S'j. l?ut it is not allowed to i;o into the United Slates .' .\o. 420i>0. Not for medicinal puri)oso-i !- -Yes, hut no! for smokiiiu. 420'Jl. In tiiis counti'y it is allowed ! -Yes, the duty is collecte(i. 42092. In regard t > the number of persons brouf;lit before you charged with drun konness : is the percentaifc of outsiders the larger ? ^'es. 420'.)."). Is the jar,ii;e proportion composed of wiiat is ealied llic' ■' lloat iiii; popula tion "'? -Ye.s, I lhiid< so: I had four before me this in irning, and all \icre oiitsitiers. 42094. They were picked U|( by the jxilice? Ves : they came in on tli ■ ships. 4209."). Taking the people as you know them, is the perceiitai;e of those who use li(pior immoderately larger than those who use ii moilcratcly .' I thinl': the larger juo portion would be those who use it moderately. 12091). Doesaiu' large ])<'rcentag!' of those who use iJcoholic li(p;ors, use ili(>in lo excess? -I think th(> percentage is a very small one. 42097. You have spoken of what you saw in Victoria County. What is the effect on the coininunity of having a law on ihe statute-book thai is persistently and llagranlly \iolatt>d .' The community fails to res|)ect the law, and the effect is not good. 1^2098. Do you tliink such a law has an educational eU'erl .' Not if it fails in be enforced f 12099. You think the otlicials did their duty in N'ictoiia. H.ul they the sentiment of the community behind them to aid them in enforcing the law ; weic I hey ba<'ked u|i by public opinion in doing so .' — Pretty well. 42100. Why, then, was not the law successful .' I do not know. 42101. H;id it a large backing of imblie opinion .' I do not think >o. 42102. Taking the entire poj)ulatioii, did you Hnd any number of jieople who suj)ported prohiliition as a sentiment, yet who did not take any p.irl in looking after it or helping along its enforcement .' —Certainly : there were a nuniln'i- of such ]ieop!e. By Ker. I>r. Mr].<',>,l 4210:i. When a law is n it i>naJil : 42104. How long have you resided in lb itish Columbia .' I li.t\e resiiieil in \ an comer since the spring of 1880. 4210"). Have you resided an\ where else in Ibitish Cohnnbia ' I resided 2 year's in Victoria before th.at. 42100. Did you come from one of the ot her pi-o\inces; I .aiiie lieie from ManHoba, ijKtani) is jjiy nai-ive province. ^4'J'Un. In what county did you live in <»ntaiio.' In banark. i'lKjy. Have you anything io do in regard to the working of the license law. and in regai'd to seeing that its pio\isions are carried out? Yes, exeiything comes under mv notice, and of course the Licen.se I nspe)n uncier your charter' that r'e(pni'es a bar-iooni itself U> be ilosed during,' prohibitc. urs on Sunday .' No. I'riiler the law a man can have all the lij^hts he wants 11 I lie bai' I'ooiii duririii pi'oliiliited hour's, in fact ! believe he is I'ompelled to have llii' bights on. ll'llT. Is lire bar'-i'oom siijiposed to be locked up ' Y'^es. fl'l is. Then people may not resort there t'oi" the purpo.se of sale ! it is all right so long as the bar is closed. Some of tlie houses have screens for' the liars. There are, of eour.se, houses wher-e thei'c ai'e no sitting I'ooms aird no place in which to sit except the bai'-rooiu. I'illlt. Then the bai'-i'oom nr;iv lemaiii open for jieople to sil in .' Y'^es : the front doors arv looked, but in the country the peo])le lia\i' often a stcisc in tlie bar-room and they sit tfiere. 42120. The guests sit ther-e, I suppose .' - Yes. f21'_M. Does that i-emark a]i]ily to saloons .' No. they are supposed to beclosed uji. fLMlil*. The bat' in ever'y case is supposed to be closed '. Yes. iL'l'J.'i Then in the winter time the guests and the family sometimes sil in the liai- rtiom of an h(Mi the U lited States and Canada? —No, 1 do not. 421.'i5. In ease of the enactment of a ;,feneral i>roliibitory law, a law to proiiibit the manufacture, importation anre proseeuleti .' Yes. -*»«t say tliat. 121.')l. Do you think there is sfnue illicit sale? -There may be. 421 ."jlj. Have you reason to Oelieve there is sale by jiersons not licen^od f Tlic only place, although I have never seen it. would be in the sporting: hou.'s*^ it' there is litjuor sold in tluit way. 421").'!, Are sportin.ii houses, houses of ill-fame ' Yes. 619 \A ,U Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 4l'l")4. You mid sueli liuuses sornt'tinies ? We mid llifiii occasioiwdly- 4-L")5. Do you find li([iior tlici'c ! I nevt-i' ioolted for li(|Uor. 4l.'15(). It is ol)Sfr\t'(l, iiowfvor, that tiicrr is lic|iior in tiiosc piju'cs ,' -It is gener- ally iindt^rstood tiiat there is lii|uor in them. Ilil;")?. Ai'c tiiere many sucii places in this citv.' Quhf n t'i'\\. A-2l')H. Tiiey are not liVenseil .' -No. 4"_'ir)i), How many would there he in round figures; I'O. l'"), ;!() or 40? T think I might safely put the number at 17 oi- IH. fL'lliO. l)o you think you iiave a sufheitrnt police force for the si/.e of this town? — It is a small force, the city is scattered and the force is a small one considering the ground we ha\e to cover. The men work aliout 10 hours a day. iL'ltil. Of the arrests your men have to make, w iiat jiroportiou of them are for (h'unkenness .' 1 should say 25 ])er cent. 4w'16:i. Of the other 75 i)er cent, what pr.iportion of them arc traceable to the drink haliit and the drink traffic.' i am oidy sj)cakirig fi'om memory, but I should say ■_'•") ]ier cent are due not to (buidccnness altogether, but are cases m which drunkenness was au element. 4l'l()i?. Of a.ssaults, are any of them .due to the drink shops and drink habit? — .Some of them are, most of them are. We do not have any troul)!e in the licensed hou.ses however, l)Ut the people come out on tiie streets. 4l'1()4. Do you think there has been a deci'case or- inciease in di.sorth-rly conduct .' — T think our police records show not very much increase during the last two or' thi'ee years. I think the nurttber' has probaljly iirci-eased, taking a rrrrnrbcr of years, bitt the towir has Ijeen gr'owing all the tirire. 4'_'1().'). What is the r'lrle irr regard to your' rrieir making arrests. If a man isdr'unk but gditrg (|ui(!tly Ironre, ilo you ar'r'cst Irirrr or' leave him aloire .' My oi'ders to rrry men ai-e tirat if a inarr is simjily dr'unk aird is ipriet, and he is going hoirre, to leave him alone. 1'liose are my or'ders. 421 60. Then if a nrari is dr'unk and disorderly aird irrcapid)le and cannot go home, you r'un him in .' Yes, in or-der' to protect him. + 2107. Are ther'e trraity rrten who ar'c so intoxicate'd that you ar'c (obliged ti) take tlierrr iir ; ar'e there rttarry who cr'eate disturbance arrd whorrr yotr ar'e comj)ellecI necessar'ily to ar-r'cst '. Xo, I do not kiujw about that. Of course you will .say that a citizen going Irorrre pr'etty full is creatirrg a ilistur'l)ance ; but it is pretty Irar'd to say whether- that nran had a coupU; of driirks of hot Scotch iir him or' not. 4lM0)^. Something has happerred to hirir. 1 suppose? —He might feel good and V)e elated. 42100. |)()you lirrd marry of those cases? Not rrrany. 12170. Do yort find so rrrany that they are arrested for' cr'eating disturbarrces?-- Thosi^ cases do not corrte so rrttrch rrnder- our' notice as cases of rrreri ereatiirg regular dis- turljances. r ■Ia.mks M('LAi!r:N 620 i .f' . ( 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 r M UH DO(^K G. McLE< )I1, of Vancouver, on being duly s\v( n n. deposed us follows ; — liij Jitdyp McDonald : 42171. What piKsitioii do you occupy ? — I iiiii License Tnspector, also .lailer, and also Clei'k of the Police Court. i'2l7'2. Is there a city lock-uj) f- -Yes. 4217.'i. How long have you resirohibitory law ! ^'es, during the pin- hibition ])eriod in I'ruee. 42197. How long w<'re you there during that period ; .Most of the time. 42198. How did the law work?- A man who wanted li(|Uur could get as mticli undi'r prohibitio!! as he could get under a license law. 42199. So licpior was for sale? Yes, in open b;ir rooms in our village. 42200. What village was that >. Riphn-. 42201. Are vou able to say, from your ov\ii knowledge of the country, that liipior was .sold in as many ))laces under the Scott Act as it was sold under the License Act? — I could not say, but t think you will tind it was sokl in more j)lace.-i. 42202. Do you know how long that continued ? 1 think during the full period. 4220;i When the opl)ortuiuty was offtu'ed to the people, was the Act renewed or repealed ?- The Act was repealed. * 621 Thr( ^ Liquor Traffic — British C'oIuiul>ia. '51 y I m IS i I fi' ( 11^ i-'20i. Fi Dominiim could lie practical ly enforced here /- I do not think so, coinpiir- in;t the class of people with tliose of the tfast. 42205. In nuikin;; tluit answer did you take into consideration the Keoj,'rapiiicai position of the country and tlie extent of coast line and hounilary line? I (hd take that into consideration. I'J'JOt). Would you apprehend that sniuj|glinf; could he cariied on in re;,'ard to lirinfjinff in liipior here from other countries ?— I should look upon the matter in this way : if the peo{)le could not smu;,'j.;le it in, they would ol)tain it in som(! other way, and tliey would make it themselves. 4'2l'07. In the event of a general prohibitory law, a law to ])iohil)it the manufac- ture, importation and .sale of alcoholic li(|uoi's for lie\era},'e purposes, do you think it would he rii^ht to compensate hrewers and distillei's for loss of plant and machinery rench'red useless? You understand that they art^ reipiii'ed hy departmental n^jiulations to put in certain expensive machinery, and further that distillers have to keep theii' li(pior in stock for two years for rectiHcation purpost's .' I think they shoulil I'eeeive compensation. iLiL'OS. Liipiors in hond would be entii-ely useless in that event? — Yes. 42"J0i>. Of course that law would not prohibit the im])ortation of alcohol for medicinal purposes and foi' sacramental pur[)oses, l)ut you iinist remember that the stock on hand would be very much larjiei- than would be needed for such ])urposes. Of cours(^ all this must be taken into account in franiini; your answer,' I think they should be compensated. t2"_'lU. State to the Connnission any su,u:«,'estions you could make, from your e.vperience of the license law, that would be beneficial ? -1 do not know that I could do so. We are labouring here uniltM- difficulties in connection with the position of the city, and of course the houses here ai'e of an inferior class owin;,' to the fact this is a new city. That condition, however, is madually jiassing away. We now lia\(! a first-class hotel iiere, and there are also some very poor ones that were started in the early days. Bi/ Her. Dr. McLeod : 42211. You think the Sunday law is very well observed I Fairly well. 42212. Then do you think there are some infractions of that law? — T have no f the law going on that it was theii' duty to report to the Chief of Police such violations. 4221"). Do you know whether it is part of the; duty of the police ofiicers to watch foi' violations of the law?--T think so, l)ecause that is a by-law of the city, and it, as well as other by-laws, recpiires to be looked after ; and it is certainly jiart of tlie duty of the police to see that the by-laws are observed. 4221(). Are there cases in your city in which ap]p|icants for licen.se require to have a petition signed? — There are not. 42217. Do they simply make application to the Hoard of Commissioners, and does the Hoard issue licenses at discretion I — Exactly. 42218. Does the Board re(|uire you anfl your men to iiKpiire into the charactei- of ajiplicants? -Yes; T have to make a report of the ]iremi,ses for which a license is sought, and also as to the character of the applicant. 4221!*. Have any applicants been refu.sed licenses? — Th(;re have been. 42220. Was the ground of refusal, inadeijuacy of acconnncxlation or because of the doubtful character of the applicant? — Because the licenses were all taken up. 42221. You spoke of unlicensed sale in houses of ill-fame. Has no attempt been made to prevent that unlicensed sale? — I do not think so. 42222. Why not? — I do not know ; the thing has been going on in the city ever since I came. MuKUOCK G. McLeoij. V 622 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 lerr lire •>;> ■itiiiiMti'd as i-'2'2'.\. Ih it your duty iis Lii-ciisf liispcctDf, nr is it tiic iliity nt' the |puiici' tu limk u|i sucii ciiscH ,' - We work t(i;,'i'tlii'i-, iiiid it is the duty (it' Ixitli ut' us. i'2'22i. NN'iiuld yiiu t'ci'l tlwit suin('i)i)(ly lind iicLtlcclcii liis duty in nut liaviiiii inter- t'crcd witli tliosf I'liHcs / I do not kiictw. I'J'J-"). Would it not l)f wi'ii to niiikc an attcmiil to rlu'ck uiilicfiisfd sale ratlicr than i.ssiK! niort* liL'«!iKsos ; or woidd it lit- lit'ttcr to issm,' licenses.' I do not know, Itecau.se it would j,'ivfi jieojile nior'e liherly to tVeijiient those places. I do not think it woid^ 33 WIST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. MSSO (716) 87J-4503 ^o Liqiioi- TiHtHc — JJiitisli ( olumbia. MAIUIY AISHOTr, <»t' Vniicoiivcr, <»ii iK'ing duly sworn, (I<-|)om'(I as t'ollows : — Jiif Juihji^ MrDuHiild : >'_'!.'4y. 1 iindttrstuixl vou \wv (ifncral Su|>eriiit«'inl«'iit uf tin- Pncitio (livisimi ut' tlic Canadiiiii Pacific liiiilway (''»iiipany ? Yes. \'l'l-ti). H(»\v lon^ liavc you HvchI in Rritisli Coluniliia ' I havf Ikh"!! Iutc since tlic winter of 188r)-sfi. r_'"jr)|. Have you reside*! in \'ancou\er durin;; all that tinief The tii-st year 1 was at Foil Mf)ody jiart of the time, and I have JH't'n here sul)se<|uently. I'J'J")!'. hurin*; all tliat time, vou have Iw-en (teiieral Su|M'i-intendent of the Pacific division of tiic Canadiiin l*a<'ilic Kailway .' Yes. 422').'V l>id you come liere originally from one of the oilier |iro\iiices? I came herefrom the Province of Ontario. I came from HrtM-kviile. I'J'J'it. 'I'akiii^ tliis community as you have found it, do you think it is com|io>ed of a soIk'I' and orderly class of |)eo|ile / Yes, I tliink so. 4'Jl!.">r) How does it compare with other comiiiunities .'- It will com|iare very favounihly with communilies in which I liave live*!. t'-'lir»(;. Ha\e you hiui aiiv reason to oliseiM- the workinii of the license law here/ I ha\e had some occasi> I'efer of that class.' I could not say. I understand that tlic issuinji of licenses takes |ilace yearly, and I do not see any rea.son why any v;ieatcr |>rivile}ies should Ix' {|(i:anted to the old timers than to new applicants. 4'Jl.'r»i(. Have you oliserxed whether the Sunday law is oI(sim\c-. You say you have liccn in .Maine .' ^'cs ; 1 had iM'casioii to no down tluM'e. 1 had charge of the last section of the (!rand Trunk to Island Pond, and afterwards 1 had the contract for the maintenance of way on the (!iaiul Trunk IJailwav. I had occa sion to jjo to Portland very often. Jl''_'<>.'{. What experience did you have in renard to the .Maine law ' I think niv exjjerience was untavouralile to the law ; that is to -iay that aiiylMKlv could j;el liipior at any tiiiio ami anywhere almost whi-n he want4>(l it, hut it was of \ery poor (|uality. 42'J*i4. |)oyou know whether liipior was carried over the (irand 'I'runk Kailvvav to any extent?- I could not say as to that. 4'_'"J(>r>. N'oii know that in the State of Maine, indiv idu.ilsai'e allowed to have all the lit|Uor they want in their own cellars and to ;five it to their friends '. Yes. I'l'lWt. t'ould jK'ople hriiii; in liquor and sell it .' Ves, surre|it itiously. Kor instance, a man could have a dhhu which any one could enter, and after lakinu all the li(|Uor the visitors want«>«l they would he exjiected to leave a certain sum of money on the tahle. That was th» iiiinon way. I"_'"_'*i7. Were there any places where there were ojien hars .' I could not say. 4'_'2t)8. Have you had experience of a prohiliitory law anywheiv e^.^e .' No. No further than the prohiltition that was enforceoiiiinion Act for the preservation of the |M'a<'e on railways : that was on railway construction at Sudhurv. on the Cana- dian Pacific l{ailway. section l.">. I had charge of ITiO iiieii at fii-st and afterwards of the whole district iM'tween Sudlmry and Port Arthur. IJ'Jti!*. The Pulilic Works .\ct applie*! to the railway umler construction, 1 sup- |M>s«' ] Yes. Hakkv Ahhoit. / 624 t I to I in I 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 1"J*J70. Wits it yniif duty lit look after tin- fiit'orct'iiuMit of it ? - Y«'s. V2'n\. How WHS it oiirri»Hl out / Very iiicrticii'iitly 1 iiin iifnvid, altliougli we (Ji(i our liest to c-arry it out. We ooulW not jm^vent li<{uor coming in. 4'2'27'2. You had oHicers under y«>ur eharj^r / - Yes. eonstablcs aionn the line. i'2'2~'-\. Wliat was the ditKcuity in rej^ai-d to jireventinj; li<|uoi' ooniin;; in f —It was hi-ou^ht in in various ways. l'227i. Stat*' some of the ways / On one occasion a ({uantity of |M)tat«H's came in. I liad a .suspicion tliat ii(|Uor would lie brought in at the same time, and I sent a constaMe to t>.\amine the carfjo, and he rejwtrted that there was nothing' hut jMitiitiied some of the barrels and found kej;s of spirituous litpiors inside of the barrels of potatoes. There were 18or20 barn'ls when we examieied the car, and some had Ik'ch sold on the way. 4*J"27r). Were there any other modes used '( -Yes. Another plan was and this jilan was lulopted on sevtiral iK-casions— to have nianufacturiwi jackets of tin. fitting; close to the Ixnly with space of two or three inches between that and an outer coverinj; of the liarrel, and in this space lii|uoi° was kept. Another |ilan was to lirin^' liipior inside of dressefl hoj{s, and in oil cans, the cans In'inji labelled "coal oil.' There wer'e, of course, other UKMles, but these are .some of the few re^jularly adojtted. 4227(). Did you luuu'stly endeavour to suppress the siiaij,'<{lini( of liquoi' ?— Yes. 42277. Did you tinn, to the efl'ect tliat witii one or two constables he found it easv to thoroujildy enforcf? the provisiojis of the Act on the section of road which he built? -I do not know that sectittn, iind unless it is situated very ju'culiarly, aiui unl(!ss he possesser of fact, that li(p;or was brouj;lit in. I suppt)se many cases occurred which wei'e not dis- covei'ed. I know that liipior was brought in, from the results. 122HO. Supposin;{ a Dominion prohibitoi-y law was enacted, do you think brewers and distillers should be reminierated for loss of plant and miU'liiiii-ry. You understand that bnnvers and distillers are compelled by law t^i jirovide certain machinery, and are calle fair if what is lei^al trade now should be made ille;;al, that the parties who are interested and who have capital invested should In- c(»mpensaied. t22Hl. It is urgefl by some that in case of chanjjes in the tariH' merchants may l)e aH'ected in business and no compensation is allowed them?- I think the two cases are hardlv parallel. The importei-'s business niii{ht be more or less injure*!, but it would iioi 1)6 injury such as the manufacturer of liquors would suffer. 422H2. It is uiyed afjain, that under the law the brewers and *listillers are oidy li i-ensed from year to year. On the other hand, it is urj;e*l that the licenses are practically renew«'*l y*'ar after yeai- ? The numufacturers have inmle an out lay which may Ik^ rentlt-red useh'ss by a prohibitory law. 422H.H. Ila\»> you, in your lineof duty, lia*i to do a ;;realdeal with travellers ? — 'N'es. 422H4. In case of the enactnu-nt of a law |)rohibitin<{ the manufacture, importation uiul sale of alcoholic lit|U*)r for lH'veraj{e purposes, it would haxf the eflect of preventing privaue in*lividualH brin>;ing liquors '/ — Yes. 42285. Tlu> enactment of sucli a law would necessarily carry with it the lijfht of domiciliary visit and search of pers*»n. Whateff«'ct would that have on travel? -I think it would have a deleterious effect Ut some extent. 42286. We have hear*l tliat in the North-wj'st Territories, where such a law was in f*)rce, a considera))le ditticulty was experien**-*! on account of |M>*>ple brin>iinj{ in li*iuor on the Pullman cars on your railway?- I only know that generally. 626 21—40** fil Liquor Traffic — Britisli Columbia. 122H7. Ha« your Conipuny any ivj^ulaticms in leKiirtl Ui the use <»f lii|U(ii- l>y men in its employ ? — Yes. 4'J2SH. You do not allow drinking men to enter the employ of the comj)any ! -No. 4228!(. Is the (|uestion "are you a total abstainer" asked men when they apply for situations ( No. 42290. Could you say from your knowledjje whether the employees of the Canadian Pacific Hailway are total abstainers I— No, th»*y ai"e very far fi-om it, I am sorry to say, because occasionally cases occur which show that they are not. 42291. Have you many employees wh«>, while not total abstaineis. are able and ethcient otHcei-s ?— Yes. 42292. Men who take li<|Uoi- in moderation, and in intnleration only I — Yes. 42293. And are reliable men? — Perfectly so. It is the exception, I am xhul to say, to find men who take licjuor to excess. In fact, we do not ke«'p men if they make a practice of it. 42294. Are there any suggestions that you can((ffer totheCommission ?- -No. Ho fai- us the Province of British Columbia is concerned, I think the present system is a very giKxl one, if it were properly enforced, esjxicially if it were suri-ounded by some few fur- ther restrictions. By Rev. Dr. McLeod: 42293. Hpeaking aboui railway construction prohil)ition : do you think if the trade h id l)een licensed along the line, there would have lieen more or less consumption of i quorl — I do not know that there would have In-en more consumption, but I think it vould have been more easily kept track of, aneen a l)etter class of li<|Urth-west, and I think Commissioner Herchmer ami othei-s agreed with the evidence, that prohibi tion under the Public Works Act had a very marked efl'ect in preventing disturbances that would naturally occur among a large Ixxly of railway men ( — I think it had that effect, but it did not afterwards jirevent disturbances. 42.'JOO. fSj)eaking alwut personal .search on the cars. We have it in evidence that Pullman cars were used for smuggling pur|H)ses throughout the mountains. Have you any knowledge of that f I have no knowle«lge of it. 42301. Are pa.ssengers searched under the customs law for contraband gy tlie Customs authorities any more than is at the present time tlie importation of any small arti<'ie for personal use ^ Prolmiily not. 42:{07. Speaking about the Canadian Pacitie Kailway Company's rules : while ap- plicants for positions are not Hsk«Hl whetlier they are total abstainers oi- not, is it a fad that your rules are (piite rigid as to the drinking haltits of the employees ,' They aie not rigid to the e.\tent of prohibiting ahsoluU^ly a man taking drink, l)ut we givedistinet preference to men who are known to l»e sol)er, sU'ady men. 42.'50><. Take this «;ase for instance : Two nten aj)ply to you for the position of tele- graph operator or train des]>atcher. They are eijuul in many respects as I'egai-ds aliility. One is known to have the drink habit ; he never gets drunk, but he drinks. The other is a total abstainer. Would 3'ou give the preference to a total abstainer ! Tf a man was known to have the drink habit it would be natural to suppose that he would drink to exce.s.s, and certainly preference would Se given to the otiier num. lii/ Judyi- McDonald : 42309. It would be well to define the (fi'ihk habit. You know that a man making application to you for position, a.s a su])erintendent, does occasionally take e some difference, the men cannot Ite *!xactly alike. ( )iie might write a better hand even than the other. Hut the fact that one man takes liipior in mo'r. Dr. MrLeod: 42.310. A Suiwrintentlent of tlie Canadian Pacific llailway statetl the case in this way ; Two men apply for a certain position. One is ipialified in all respects fortheposi tion, but he is known t4» take liipior occasionally, although he never gets drunk. The other man is not (piite .so giMKi a man, but he is a total abstainer. The Superintendent said he would not hesitate a moment in cluMising the total i»,bstainer. When asked his reason he .said, while the one man might never intend t,o drink to exce.ss, he might do so, while in the other case there was no dangei-. Of course, that depenlii' Mfl>int. ri'JIH. NVIiiit is your district ( Mv district covers t lie whole of the niniiiliind of Itritish Columlnii. 42.'M'J. You lire from the ('oiMitv of l^eetis, I JM-liex)-.' Yes, from MrtM'kville. \'1'-\'10. Mow ioii^ hiiveyou livrij in Itritish Coliimliiii '. Alsnit :t years and 4 months. I2H21. Ik'fore that time I sii|i|M»se you Jived elsewhere in Ontario ! — I lived (5 years in <)nt4irio. in tive diflerent places, and so I have seen most of the province. \T.\'1'1. Where else have you live*! in Kritish Columltia than Vancfiuver ? — I have travelled over my district that is all. 4"2.H2.'5. What are your duties as lidand |{e\enuc Collector with regard to intoxi- uatinjr lii|Uors'/ .Ml liquor here is liandled in l>ond. We have no manufacture of li<|UorK un the mainland, no distillin<{ is done on the maiuliind, although we have 5 hreweries ; '1 at Westminster, '1 at !{evelstoke, and I at Nelson. One of the breweries at Hevelstoke has iM-en dropfM-d. Then we have thi-ee hreweries* here, and they have U-conie more ext^'nsi\e as the snuiller ones have Ikm-ii droppeoes this include lager U'er ? -Yes, Jind steame«l \wi'r. 42.S27. What is that? -It is a heavier l)eer, and oh that account will keep lietter than other Ix'er. 42.'{28. Do you have to insjK'ct those breweries ?— Yes. 42.'}21). Have you any figures witli you showing the t,() 1!> gallons ; lHl)l-it2, .'M,)^"'*, an increa.sc of 1,()0(' gallons. Taken from warehouse in IH'.lO-i)!, 22,421 gallons : lsy|-!t2, .•»2,2()7 gallons. 42.'}.S,'1. What alxtut wiiu's ( — I have nothing to do with them. 42.'i34. Are those s]iirits manufacturtnl in Ontfirio .' — Yes, in Toronto and Windsor. 42.'i."l5. As a citizen, have you observed the woi-king of the license law here? — Ye.s, I have given the matter some attention ? 42.'{.'W). How do you find it work ? \'ery well; but I would favour the im}K)sition of heavier licen.se fees in order to have a better class of men in the trmle. 423.S7. Do you mean a Injtter class of hou.ses .' — There are too many shacks, old ln>u.ses that were built here in the first place, and I think there are tof) nwiny licen.ses issued here. 42.'J38. Do you think there are more than are necessary ? — Yes. 42.'{39. We have l)een told that under the city by laws the ,sal tlie working of it. 42343. Have you l)pen lier<3 long enough to Im- able t<» form an opinion as to whether a prohibitory law could Ik? satisfa«torily enforced in British Columbia ?^I am of the opinion that it could not. We have such an extent of territory here that it would become practically a dead lett^M*. Then the chances of smuggling by water are quite extt^nsive. Joseph K. Mili.ah. 6SS 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ll.'.'UI. Ila\f vou liny illicit inanufiu-tuiv nf liquor ^oin;; on in this provino*? / W«' have liiul only ono case in Vancouvci'. P.'.llo. W'v |ia\i' Ix'on told tln' manner in wliirli Indians manutactuiv li<|iior. Tlu- same tliinj; lias Immmi stated to nu- In-re. I do not think it is piissible that the Indians inaniifaeture lii|iioi- ii\ that way : for this reason : It is stattni that they use kelp as a worm. The heat passing lhrouj{h this worm must neeesHarily contract the kelp, and the\ could not us(> it, at all events more than on<-«>. I'_'.Uct as \ iewed from your own stand|)ojnt, what is vour opinion? - I think the tratiic is lieiiijt; dealt with in a proper manner now. aiul 1 do not think it is possible to make any im]>rovements. I2.'s his liusiness during the following year, 'i'ake the distillery of (JoiKler- ham and \Vorts, in Toronto : \Ve have eight officers doing nothing liut liMiking after the jirenii.ses. There are restrictions as regards the spirit reservoirs so that the depth will show on a certain gauge. In other words, one day's retining must represent a ci-r- tain depth of the reservoirs. Then all the connections lietween the still and the reser- voir must lie do.sed and sealed as well as the joints and all the openings which are locked with special locks and sealed. Of course very heavy exjienditure is involved in starting a distilleiT, especially with the two years' limit now attached to it as reganls the rectili- cation of spirits, and of course it is almost impossible for any man t^i start this business unless lie is jxissessed of almost unlimite jimliihit the iiianufacturp, importation and sale of alcoholic liquoi-s for hevera^je purjiose. do you think there would be much plant renderetl useless? — In the distilleries, hut not in hreweries. 42358. Would the machinery itself be a heavy los.s ? Must of it. 42359. And in a brewery certain parts <»f it would Ije a luss ?- Yes. By Rev. Dr. McLeod : 42360. You have spoken alx)Ut there Win;; a larye increase in the consumption of bt«r. Do you know whether there has l»een a decn-a.^' in the consumption of spirits 'I— There has been a decrea.sed consumption of spirit." fx-r capita. 42361. Do 3'ou think the diminution of the consumption of .spirits here corresponds with the increase in the output of l)eer ? — I think so. 42302. Have you any tiffures which show that ,' — There is another point which I should like to bring to the attention of the Commissi«in. I'ntil two years ago the whole province here was dependent on Victoria, more or less. The Victoria merchants had, and still have, what we. call the monopoly of ihetnuie. but gnulually we have got our own, and now the people do not have to obtain their supplies in Victoria. \'ou can form an estimate as to an increase or decrease fi-oni the figures shown during the past two years as compared with tVtrmerly. 42363. Is there no way of determining the matU-r '. You can only arrive at a con- clusion by taking the whole return for the province. 42364. You say there are 2 breweries in Vancouver ? -Yes. 42365. Why is this whole business flone under the law ? — Because there might be fiaud. 42366. Then there is fraud ? - 1 should say so. 42367. There are officers st.ati over the cork. So it is guaranteed .so far 42369. You have spoken about higher license fees U-ing needed, in your opinion, in Vancouver. What would be the effect? — I think it would have the effect of keeping out of the business not very desirable |)eople. 42370. Are the peoj)le in the business now not respectable!— It would make them more respectable. 42371. We understand that the Hoaril of License Connnissionere determines as to the granting of the licenses, and that a rejMtrt is made a< t<» the charact«'r of the appli- cant as well as the omdition of the premises f- Tlie license question is one U> which I have not given very deep thought, for the reason that it has not come under my obser- vation very much. 42372. You have also said that it wouUI lie l»etter to have fewer licenses issued? — Yes. 42373. In your opinion would there l)e less s;de if there were fewer licen.ses issued ? — I do not think it would materially atlect the tr.'ule : at the same time, it would give a better guarantee as to the <|uality of the li(|Uor sold. 42374. Speaking of saloons and hotehs. Is the .sal a saloon has the habit pretty firmly fixed and does not care who sees liim go in. But young men go to hotels, to see a friend on business, and afterwards they dn»p into the bar, or they may go there under the pretense of wishing to read the newspjipers. In this wa}' it is Joseph E. Mii.l.\h. 680 At the same time I think we have estimat*-*! ? — The bulk of the li(|uor, in lK»nd anfl it Itears thi' (rovernment as that can \te done. 57 Victoria. Seraional Fftpers (No. 21.) A. 1894 nrgiKHl the lii>t<'l Itiir is rt>ally inorc iliiiig*>i'oiis Uiaii tli<< sjiloitii. Mitvc vmi tlioii){|it uf the iimtter in thttt li>;ht ! -I have iinl jiiveii it iimcli atleiilinii: in tint I ar lieeome what the saliM>n is now.' Not to ijic same extent, for the surroundings would Im> lN;ttractically prohibition to-day. I think if there was a proliiliitory law enacted there would Im' greater smuggling and othei' \iolatioiis of the law than there are to-day. I:.' .'{.*<•■!. !»«• you think that a general prohihitory law woulil have a lii-ttei chance ut iH'iiig enforee. l>o you lielieve that the evils resulting from the proliihitory law would lie as great or greater than the evils that result from the estahlished drink traded They might, in some lines ; generallv I do not think thev would. FKKhKIUrK SCHuFTKId*. of Vancouver, on lieing duly sworn, depo-ed as follows : iJi/ Jiiiit/'' MrDoittihl : 4l'.'{Hti. What is your profession or occupatir). Will you name .some of tlie.se evils / I think we have too many hotel licenses issue«l, for example. 42.39<». The last witness .spoke of the fact that the charactei- of some of the hoiises might Ije improved ? — Yes. This is a very |>eculiar province. There are some of the mi-ii 631 Liquor Trattic—Britisli Columbia. who are di'voted tMitirely to luinherinK and soint- to a scat'aiiii^' litV, and tliose men ean- not be (le|)ri%ed of the luxuries they ran obtain in other j)arts ut' the world. Of course tliere must In- hotels (we will call thorn hotels) for the dirt'eiunt classes of people, but there are ttx* many of them. • i'l'.W. Then you want hotels sutHcient to furnish acconiinudation for the ditl'erent pectph" in the neij,'hlMiurh many of them ? —Yes. 4"J.'M)!>. Have you had any ex|>erienc<' in regard to carrying out a prohibitory law f — Not since I have been here, 42400. Have you had any experience elsewhere / I had expeiience of it during the last three years 1 was living in tin- County of I^eeds and (iren\illc, when the Scott Act was in existence in Urockville. 42401. How did you tind the law work there ; Imd you any knowledge of its work- ing ? I coulil not speak of its working with approbation. 42402. Then it did not work satisfactorily ?— No, it did not. 42403. From your knowledgt> and experienci- of ISritisli Columbia, do y(»u believe a prohibitory law could l>e successfully carried out here,' I think not, on account of- the peculiar position of the province ; not onlv on account of its almost unlimited extent, but because the othcials would not Ik; able to travel all over the province, as the oj)por- tunities of going into tin? country are limited, and therefore it would Ik; imjxissible to carry out the provisions of a prohibitory law. 42404. [n ca.se of the enactment of a general prohibitory hiw, do you think itwouUI be right that brewers and distillers should becompensated for loss of |ilant and machinery rendered u.H«'less? -I should think so, simply for this reason, that this business is one of a character that is guaranteed liy law. 4240"). Have you any suggestions that you can submit to the Commission in I'egard to the working of the license law, further than those you have alieady made? -Yes. In lieu of a prohibitory law. T would certainly adxcicate that fewer licenses slunild be granted, that the license fee should be increased, and that Iiisptjctors should be appointed, having greater power. An riis])ector should have the power to go right into a hotel and demand the keys of the bar, and then arrange to have the lii(Uor tested. If the liquor was founrl not to be of a certain degree of strength, the license should 1h' taken away aiul the liquoi' ( ontiscated. This would lead to a less ipianlity of the liipior lieing consumed, and it would do away with many of the evils of drinking, that of drinking p. Tlieii you liiivc ditKculty soinctiiiK's in tultilliny tlmt duty / Y»'n. 4-tlti. Wlicii you liiivf to stiitc lis to tli«' i<'s|icftiil)ility lit' tlic upiiliiiirU, do \port tliiit, ill your opinion, lu> is up to tlic stiindard ; is tlmt why you find it ditticult to pt'rfoi'ui that duty '! In cases in which I do not think the man is tit t'ni' the posit inn, I do not certify at all. 4J417. What would the applicant do '. He would apply to another Maoist rale. 424IH. Then the paity you think would jfct another Ma;;istrate to do what vou would not do .' Yes. 42411*. What, from your oli.servation, do you think wi'ie the dilliculties in the way of eiiforcinj; the Scott Act in Hrockville ? There was ;^reat dilliculty experienced the Act was violated in many ways. I cannot say whether the failure was more on account of the had management of those who were attempting' to carry it out, and had the power, oi- to the \icious propensities of those who tried to violate the law: liul I know it did not have the efl'ect (»f decrt'asin;^ drinkin;^' in any dej^ree. 42J'_'U. Did it restrict the triwle in any dej;ree ? It restricted the trwie in pultlii- houses, hut it in(rrea.sed it elsewhere. t24l'l. Were there no particular lef(al technicalities that hampered the i-nfonenieiii of the Act f -I am not prepared, at this distance of time, (i\e years, to state. 4'Jt'J-. What from your ohservation has Ix-t-n theeffect of the li<|Uor tratlic in regard t<» the Itusiness, .social and moral interests of the connnunity ;;enerally .' Speakin;; from a le^al stand|M)int, of cour.se, the prohiltition as re<,'arly could he carried out still fuithcr, so as to he ahso lute as I'e^^ards other people, it would Im> nerally. As you have oliserxcd it, is the ctlect ^oodorliad .' It is certainly had in a ;;reat many places. In lioiiics where liquor is used in modera- tion, I do not think the eflect is any wor.se than in other cities. 41*425. Do you re<;ard the drink traffic as a menace to the home life of any com- niunitv iii which it is established / — 1 do as rei;ards some classes. 4242<). To the ycaing men in homes, is it a menai'e f - Ye.s. 42427. They are subject Ut injurious etVects from the li(|Uor t rathe .' Y.'s. necessary fni' Fathers and are no .-rcater 4242i*. Do you think it well to establish a tratlic which makes it fathers, mothers and sisters, to be constantly neutrali/.ini; its ertects .' mothers undoubtedly neutralize the ill ettects of the tratHc, but the evils here than they are in other jiarts of the world. 42429. Have you observed, notwithstanding; the In'tiinn inllueiire of fathers, niiithi'r>< and sisters, that the drink ti'attic doi's demoralize the younj; men .' It docs decidedly. 424.'iU. Have you observed whether the drink tratlic does injuriously atl'cct business interests .' — It do<'s no doubt in isolated ca.ses. The efVect is identical with the eflect in other j)rovinces, that is to say, that amon<; some unfortunate men it does act injuriously. 424.'Jl. Have yovi olweived wln'ther the tratlic afVects the wai;e-earnin;; power of the community ? Y'es, it does. The people have j^reater opportunities of spendini; their money, and in this way the meii spend money which they should take home to their families. 42432. Do you object to prohibition on principle or on account of its alleged imprac- ticability? — It is more on account of the alleged impracticability of such a law. more espe- cially in this province. If such a law were pa.ssed for the whole Dominion. I think it would be practically im|H».ssible to carry on any <;overnment. At the present time, almost all the revenue is derived from the liquor tratKc. 42433. It is admitted that the country receives .several millions of dollars in the way of customs, e.\cise duties aiul license fees. Have you thought (if the matter sufK- 633 Liquor Tratlic — I^ririfih (olniiibiti. lifiitly to U' iililf to form un cHtiiimii- im Ut wliut it lONts tin- rouiiirv, dinrtly or irnlii'i'<'tly. to ohtaiii tlios«« rcvciiiU'M ' I Inivc not. I know, of coiirHf, thai it routs a ^otmI ileiil, liut ( am unHlilc lo iiiNtitutr n rompiiriMon. IHAA(' HUKS'PtJN, of N'micouMT, on Ihmii^ tiiily sworn, ilf|)osi-(l a- follows: — //// Jtii/f/f Mflhnialil : i-i'.W. What is voiii' itusiiii-M.s or oi'i-iijiation f [ am a (fi'Mtlfmaii. 12J."{.">. Ill what Imsiiifss liax-you lH'i\in is it since yon left iMiriiam.' Three yi«ai-s and o\er. J2J.'{1(. Did yon know Mnrliam under the .Ncoit Act .'Yes. and under the l>unkin Act, except the towns of I'orl Mope and ('olMinr>;. I'JUf). How did the Act work in iMirhamf Not satisfactorily, for there was no machiiM'rv l>y which to carry it out. it would ha\e worked iM'tter if an Insjiector had iK-en appointed to cari'v it into effect, hut it was not carried out. I'_MII. No Inspector was apiMiinted ? No. (2442. I>id the ( >iiturio (iovernnient appoint an Inspector,' Wm, they ap|Hiinted one near I'ort Hope, liut he wculd not act. A ^rreat many cases |>laced iM-foie him he ne\er placed I tefore the (iovernnient, and he announced that the (toM-rninent did not wish to pusii matters Icmi hard. I'-'(4<1. Hid you report his conduct to his superiors? ^^°e did. (2144. His su|M'i'ior otHcer was .Mr. Mannini', I lieliexef The Ontai'io ( !o\ernmenl otticer. 4244"i. .\fter that, endent .' They were. 424r)0. They, in fact, declined to act f- Yes. 42451. Hid yon haxi- many cases in ('olxuirf; and were tines collected .' -Yes. 424r)2. We understand that after the Scott Act had U-en in force three years, it was re|MNiled ? Yes. 424r)3. To what iiiHuence do you attribute that re|)eal? T(» the disgust of the jieople when the Act wi's not carritnl out in a ])roj)er way. Every man would .say : "(!iv«) us enforced prohibition aiul we will vote for it to a man." 42454. We understand that you at first tried the Dunkin Act f Yes. 42455. Havinf{ tried the Dunkin Act and the Scott Act, and not havinj;r succet |iul>li(- HiMitiiiD'iit in t'a\iiiit- nt' |iriiliiltitiuii ,' It witN uiiiloiilitiMlly. iL'MiO. IIiiw woiilii tlitit (lisniiii'lixt' thfin ! |t«'<-tiiis)> iiioiv of tlir |ic>- f(UHt)Mi with the liiw. If a {{fiifriil iirnliiliitorv law wcr<- |ini|M>sfil, inure |mmi|i|<> wixiIiI vnt<' inv it. I'niliT tlic Scott Aft iin oin- si(|«- nf tin- tVncf iIh-v wcuiiil !»•■ sf||i»ii{ lii|U'ii. iiikI oil llii> otlici- sii|i> you could not sell it. ll'MH. iiut Ontario County wan |iractically siirroundcil liy pioliiliition counties? Vcs, and it worked very well at that lime. The talk aUiut more lii|uor Immu;; sold there at that time is a t'arce. The townshi|) of .Manvers had more than I,-'. So the Act was a HUCcesH there ? Yes. PJ !•>.'{. V'ou say the (leople favoui' prohihition .' Yes. (:.M()t. Ity that do you mean the total prohihition < '' 'le manufacture and sale i.t lii|Uoi' for lii>vei'a){e purposes? Yes. 42ll>"». r)o you yourself favour that ! I would always I'l .our that. I'-'Kltt. Have you neiyhlHiurs who use wiiu-s and a' "- m unHleration f .Many 'if them do and sonie do not. t'2tfi7. Take those who do ii.so it, what means aiid you iidipt to prevent them s«'curii)>i it •* they wantes. You iK'lieve that Kueh a law, if passed, wouiu reipiii-e iiMikin;,' after? Yt>^. ll'I'i'.l. AikI you would a-ssist in providin;; otljcials ! -Certainly; hut the count v ins|H-ctors are not noina to Ih* shut out or intimidated in re^ai'i to doini; their duty. 42470. Was any Inspector shut out? \o, hut I .saw a Mai;isti'ate >c r\ed with an anonymous lett^'r with a skeleton anil cross Ikiiic.s on it, statiny that if he went i., ,i cer t.ain place, Millliiiiok, to hold court, he would never come kick. l"_'47l. I>i(l he come hack .' Yes. (•J47l'. And he is alive yet ? Yes. t'_'47.'5. So that threat did not prevail ? — No. (2474. Are you aware as to the |M)pulation of Northumlierlund and I >ui'haiii counties to which you have referred ,'- .Msail 7().. .\re the people pros|M>rous ? Yes, they are well-toilo. 4247*). 'I'akinj,' those <'ouiities, would you have an I iis|>eclor at the diH'erenl |(oiiii^ where ti'avellers would Im' liahle to comr- in ? --Yes. 42477. We haxc Iwen told in the North-west Territories that there was a forct' of 1,000 iiuMi charyetl with the enforcement of the prohihitoiy law, ami yet liipior wa- hrou),;lit in from the I'nited States ! I do not douht it for a moment. 4247)^. I)o you U-lieN)' the or. I>id you hear the evidence hrouj{ht liefure the Commission in re;;ard to liipinr pftcka;{es heiii;^ hrou^ht in in ho<,'s and liipioi- heinji put in eoal oil cans, mixefi with tohaceo iiiul other ingredients. Are the otticei-s e.\|MH'ted to inspect such nicnhandise '. -Yes. 424HO. Have you considered at all who shall hear the t'xpense of enfoicin},' such a law ! If the <>overnmeiit cy men of t;(HH I character. 424S.'V l)o you know of any country in the wor!(i where there is such a law as you wish?- -I suppo.se it is on the statute-lxHik of Maine. 424H4. No. In the State of Maine a man is allowed to have his cellars stcK-ked with all the licjuor he wishes, and he may u.se it and j;ive it asvay to his iiei;;hlHiurs. Fs tliat the kiiul of a law you want? - No. 424;ard to it. 635 Liquor Trattic — British ('oliuul>ia. ll'>f<7. Tlien y<»u foiisuh'r thiit Fiji is iH'tter in that r<'s|)e<-t tluui we are? — Yes. 4l'I8S. In piituiple, you arc a i)r«)liil)iti()nist ( Y'cs. 12489. You a»e o))|m>m(><1 to tlu; lifensinj^ of tlio trallic .' I am, 4-_'4!»i». Do you think it is sinful ? I do. 4"J491. In case of tlie enactment of such a law as \ou wish, do you think it would be rijfht to compensate hrewers and distillers for loss of plant and machinery rendered useless? That lni^ht Ih- done in small cases, hut in rc;;ai(l to those ;;reat nionofiolies that have tried to shut out and s(|uash the little «)nes, or rather hi;; monopolies trying to . Speaking about officers to carry out the law : do you know that in Ontario out rag' ^ were committed upon persons who enforced the law ? — There were several out- rages pi rpetrated near Orangeville, and in other jtlaces some p('oj>le were shot at. 42497. Was that outrage triuied to any one .' It was traced to a tavern kee])er. 4249H. Have you observed how the license law has operatetl in N'ancouver since it ha.s been in force here? — No ; I have hardly given it a thought. At the same time, I know there is liquor soUl or given away on Sundav. I saw a man drunk on Sunday about two weeks ago, when I was coming from church, lie was lu'ar the Hudson JJay Conij)any's store and was reeling and embr'acing the lamp post, indeed he was very affec- tionate to tin? lamp jiost. 12499. Had you a license law in Ontario ju'ior to the Scott Act ] — Ye.s. 12")00. Comparing the condition of things under the two .systems, which was the more advantageous? I'nder the Scott Act there was r.ot as nnich li(iuor used or to Ix* olitained. 42;"»(>1. ^\'ould the jH)lice records show that to be the case / Yes. 42.")02. You are an observant man no doubt. Now. what is your observation of the etlects of the liquor trallic on business aH'airs as well as the social life and morals of the people of this connnunity \ Thei-e has been a great change in my lifetiuu'. Seventy years ago F recollect well when on the shores of the Hay of (.^uintt- there was a distillery alxait two mil(>s distant along the shore. At that time whisky was fourpence (Halifax currency) a ipiart. anil 1') pence'a gallon. About that time the temperance people iM'gan to speak and the ministers of the various denominations began to preach against intem- jierance. 1 remendier the time when a man dare not s|)eak in favour of prohibition. I well renuMuber the temiierance meetings, and 1 have heard that when some such meet- ings were held old ladies woultl stand at the door, being afraid to enter. That feeling has changed from that day to this, but it has changed gradually. There never was a great revulsion of feeling, but the change came gradually about. 42")0.'l. What is your rea,son for favouring prohibition of the li(|uor tratlic?--! U'lieve liquor is a great curse in any connnunity and anything done to les.sen it will greatly Iwnetit the rising generation. If we could get our vonng men in favour of it, the .s(H)ner the old drinkers died oH" the In'tter, and we wouUl then have a happy and blessed country. The revenue would be lost I know, alK)ut ^18,000 from the liquor traHic in this city. 42504. How would you make up that revenue ?- That is a difficult question. The reduced cost of nuiintaining police and penitentiaries would make up part of it. I have had .some e.xperience of the ])enitentiarv in Kingston, when Mr. Creighton was Warden. I hatl acce.ss to the books, and I found that a great many of those who came to the peni- tentiary came owing to liipior. \ dnni'ss, there would be a great falling ott' in fines. 4'250r). Do you think it just to the community to take from people tines with wiiicli to fill the treasury ? — Not unless thej' are for punishment for crime. Of course, I think it is quite necessary to fine people for certain offences, and in litis way certain amounts ai'e placed in the treasury for the benefit of the connnunity. 42506. The!i y(»u think, if the drink trade was abolished, a great part of the crimt" would be prevented 'i — -I do not think, but I am as sure of it as that the sun is lighting the world. Jly Judge Mr Donald • 42507. What was the majority given in favour of the Scfitt Act when it «(is passed? I do not know, I think .'5,000. 42508. Can you account for the fact that after it worked such marked chang(?s, and after it was sulopted by a majority of .'i,0UO |)eople, there should have been such a revulsion of feeling subsequently f — I look on the matter in this way: Its moral intlu- ence was very marked, l)Ut the people got disgusted to think that the Act wms not carried out. 42509. Hut it had been carried out in part '. They were disgusted because the .\ct had not been carried out in its entirety. 42510. You have stated that you did not expect to secure prohibition entirely.' - No, I e.xpect snuiggling. 42511. You want prohiltition, however! 1 do. 42512. If with that prohibition you find that the (piantity of litpior consumed fm- beverage purposes is only i-educed to one-fifth of the quantity at present used, would you consider that law to Ik* a l)eneficial one? — Yes. 4251.'?. A InMieficial law worth securing? — T would, but thousands would not. 42514. Why would they not ? Hecause they would say that the law is not conq>leic. 42515. Then they wish a clean sweep ?— Yes. 42516. And they will never bt^ satisfied with anything else, [ su)ii)Osc I — No. 42517. If they had prohibition to the extent of one-Hflh, would they be satistieil f — I think not. 425IH. What would they want next? — Prohibition altogether. 4251!t. Prohibition for the w(»rld .'- No, for our own country. 42520. If in our own country these people we.e not satisfied with llie consumptinii, reduced to one-fifth, what would they do next ? — They would insist on the machinei-y being more tight. 42521. Then they will never cease until there is no more liciuor? No. 42522. You first spoke as if you did not know whether people got !ii|Uor or nut under a prohibitory law ; might the people get lit|Uor? -Y'es, but the man whom I saw was drunk. 4252.'{. Put you think the fact of seeing a man drunk was no evidence that the hou.ses were selling on Sunday / -No; I do not kiujw where he got the liquor or wlu-n. 637 Liquor Tmflic — British Columbia. W. J. McGl'IGAN, M.D., of Viuifou\er, on Iwinji dulyVworn, (h-poswl as follows: — liij Jiif/i/f Mrlhmaltl : 42o24. Are you a physician lieii- ? — Yes. and suiffeon. 42oL'"». I understand, from a paper lmnde28. How lonji have you resided in British Colund)ia /--I have Imh-m here since 1885. 4-'")L'9. Have you resided all that tinie in Vancouver ,' No, I residetl in the Rocky Mountain district, at Donald. 4*J.");{U. Were you on railway construction f — 1 was one of the surgeons on the Canmlian Pacific Railway. 4'Jo-'>l. Did you come here from one of the other provinces/ — I am a native of Stratford. Perth County, Out. 4_'."):{-2. Mad you any experience in the J{hil)ition of th»' traftic in li)|Uor ? — Yes, that whole district was umler pivhihition. \'l'y.V.\. Was that under the Railway Act oi Pulilic Works Act f Yes. 42r»;U. How did it work '(-—Any ({uantity of li<|Uor was to Ik* got. 4'_*").'}."i. How was it got in ? - It was smuggled in. 4"_'")."it). In what manner ? — In barrels and in every way. I know you could get a drink whenever you wanted it, if you haoth |)olice and army, for it was aljout the time of thi> North-west relwllion. 425.'{9. Did those officers attempt to stop smuggling? — I do not know much what they did. 1 undprstoo. At licen.sed places? — I do not know that e\ery one can get one, but any on>- who is ac(|uainted can do so. 42547. As much .so as on week days? — Yes. 42548. Have you, as an alderman, called the attention of the police to the violations of the law ? — I have not. 42549. Do you know whether there is sale of litpior to young people ? — I could not answer that e jwi'mitteil to retain licenses/ I tiiink if \'ou were to talte away their licenses on that ;rround, you would not have any in the town. 42")5(). Do you not think this could Ix^ cari-ied out ! -You would have to lia\e a superior (^lass of men in the trade compared with those now in it. 42")57. CouUJ you not ;;et them ! — I do not tiiink you could j^et a lietter lot. 425r)M, So, in your opinion, the im'ii who aiv disposed to gu into the trallic are men who are li<(uor law i)reakers J - Yes. 4l'5.">9. Why is a class of mt-n selected out of a connnunity and given a privilege which is not given to other pc pie, who at the same time take uj>on themseUes the obligation of obeying the law and who are yet it appeal's violating the law .' Would the penalty of doing away with the man's license be too severe /--That is asking me too much. I siiould not like to makea sttitenienton thut point. It is a generally recognizetl tiling, and no person attaches any great importance to it. 42500. How can you expect the police of a city like this, charged with the luiminis- tration of the law, to be able to tlo tlieii- duty, if the bulk of the citizens do not wish that duty done? No one ex])ects the police to do this work ; the great majority of the )>eople do not exjject that from the police ; in fact tliey do not want to encourage the police too much in that way. 42r»()l. You think that is tlie .sentiment of the people in Vancouver / I do. 4'_'r)()2. We have it in evidence that Vancouver is an ortlerly and law-abiding place / I tliiuk it is. 425G;1. Yet you think the majority of the peojtle are favourable to the breaking nt the law pas.sed by the T.iegislature / The way I judge the matter is this : laws are nut always considerek. 42567. Y tlmt cause?— No, I . 4257W. Is total abstinence compatible with tlie best health ?— My experience is that it is not so. I think men who use liquor in nicKleration have l)etter lieaith and are more capable. 42579. Is habitual niiKlerate drinking harmful or hainiless ? — I do not think moderate drinking is harmful. 42580. We find that the term moderate is ijuite a variable one. Will y taking men who are mmlerate drinkers. 42582. Do they object to take risks on li(|Uor sellers? — Yes, 1 think they do. 42583. Do they object even to do so when the li(|Uor sellers are total altstainers? — I do not think so. I have not had a ciuse of that kiM flagrantly. 42612. Is there any difference between flagrant violation and violation .' 1 think so. 42613. Is it an accommodating term '. -1 tliink flagrant violations arcclifl'ercnt from ordinary peccadillos. I think it is generally admitted among all classes of peo|ile that the "c diflerences in crime. 4i:614. Then the inner circle are not at all responsible ? 1 do not knov\ what resjxmsibility they take upon themselves. T do not like to be asked to make statements for them, as I am not their <'onfe.s.sor. By Judije Mi'Dotmhl : 42015. From your knowledge of the Province as a whole, do you think a general prf)hibitory law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liciuors for beverage purposes, if eiitacted, could be enforced I A certainly do not. 42010. What would be the difliculties in the way of its enforcement ,' Kverylxidy would be in the business of importing li<]Uor, and I do not know how it would bi- jwssible to carry out such a law. 42017. Incase such a law were enactetl, would you deem it right and just that brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant ajid iiiachinery rendered useless I -Certainly. Why not ? 42018. Do you believe that the jiresent Sunday closing law is a good law ? Yes. 42019. Would your favour any further amendment trce(l in Urilish Columbia ? — Yes, province is just as gcMKl as Ontario, 1 think. 42fi'J"J. So other laws are enforc***! here tiMlay. in some decree,' -I think they are. 4'J()2."l. You have said that brewers and distillers sliould lie conijM'nsated for loss of plant and machinery. Why comi>ensate them if their business would not l>e intc^rfereci with / You havi' said that a prohibitory law would not interfere with the trade, and why therefore .should tliey be compensiited ! I would compensate them bc^cause our brew(M's and distillers would not be able to manufacture as they do now. They would have to chanj^e the whole system of manufacture. !rresj)onsililc persons would be in the business instead of men like (iiMKierham and Worts, and Walker ; inferior liipior would be |)r(Hluced, and the morals of the people would 1m' deinorali/.e to within the last few months. 42<)l?r). By whom was it kei)t / IJy J. 0. Steene, who ran a hotel in Donald. 42().'{(). Have you any ti;jures showing the (quantities of li(|Uor liandU^l duriiii{ the past two years ? Yes. Up to that time it was part of the Victoria division. The statement T have is as follows : Si'inrrs: K.\ wurfliouMcil at Dniiiilil, li.C, iliniiij< the yottrn I8!M1 !»l and ISiil !)•_•. IS!M)-!>I. S|iirits t-x -waruluiUHed for cuiiHiiiiiptidii $vJ7.'{,!Mil I Sit I !»•-'. " " 'Jx-vrjut III my o|>iiiii)ii, MO ikt cent of tlii.s i|uantity went into thu Territoruw. .1. K. MILLAK. 4"J().'{7. Are you ahle to speak as to the disposition made of that li(|uor / In pa«sini( through Donald tin.' Commissioners would (^ain an idea of what the town is. About 20 per cent of the liipior was sold theiv and the balance went into the North west Terri- tories. As .soon as the license system came intc; foi'ce in the North west Tei'ritories the business was dro|)ped, JM-cause there was no further sale there for the liiiuor 4'J'!;{8, Did the keejHM- give bonds to the Government/ — Yes, as is the case with all bonded warehWAUD (JDLI' ^L of Vancouvei', tire insurance agent, tju being duly sworn, deposed as follow.s : — Bi/ Jii(f and forwards to Ontai-io three times, and once down to .\usti'alia. I have been settled here perhaps three years. 4204."V Did you <'ome from Ontario originally /— Yes. 42044. From what county? I was in several counties; T was in Peel County a number of years, and llalton and North Henfrew. 42()4(). Have you had any e.xperience of a jiroliibitory law in those counties ,' The Scott Act was tried in Henfrew while 1 was there. 42040. Do you mean that the Act was votetl upo > i Yes; it was enforced part of two years. 42047. Were you i-esiding thei'e all the time ? — Yj s. < hving to the conflict between the Provincial (jtovei'nmeni and the Dominion (Jovenuuent they did nut tiy to enforce it the thinl year. They were then attempting to enforce the McCarthy Act. 42048. Why was there a contlict between the two (Jovernments? Two sets of otticers were trying to enforce the law. Until the second Inspector came on the scene the law was well enforced. 42049. What became of the Act itself ? During the last year it was a dead letter. I think the people "•')ted on it again and returned to th<' old measure. 420o(). The Act wa.s repealed, at all events '. Yes. 420r)l. Seeing the working of the law as you did, at what opinion did you arrive as regartls its operation? — During tlie tirst year or eighteen months, it rwluced drinking very materially. . 643 ..•< 21-4H** Liquor Tiattic — British Columbia, 4'2('h>'2. Ill what part of th«' county did you live !— In Penibroki-. 42<)r).'?. Was there ivny ditticulty uwiri^' to li<|Uor U-ing brought over from thf Qu«- liec side of the river ? — Yes, from Alluniett*- Tshind ami soini' smaller islaiuls on the (.Quebec side. 42()r>4. You, of foui-so, liati many lundiernien in and aljout Pembroke? — Yes, there are a garwl to go. I would n«it ]irses. — As a matter of principle, I would favour prohibition. 42660. Failing prohibition, would you favour license or the untiannnelled sale of liipior / — License by all means. 42<)61. Coming to the (|uestion of the )ira<-ticability of prohibition, you think that at pres»^nt it would not be practicable ? It would not be. 42662. What would be the difficulties in the way ? — I tliiiik the chief difficulty would be that the majority of the people on this <-ojist would not favour it. 4266.S. Do you believe that you nmst have a large majority in favour of such a law in order to make it a success J— -I do indeed. 42664. tn case of the enactment of such a law. do you think it would be proper to remunerate brewers and distillers for loss of plant and machinery? — If they had t*i cease their bu.siness (ptickly, as a result of that law, and they fuff'ered loss, they should be compensated. 426(i5. Taking this community as you have found it, ilo you consider that it is a .sober and law-abiding community f Comparing this with other new cities, I think it is orderly and sober. There is less thinking here than in a great many of tlie seaport cities I have l)een in. 42666. Were you in Australia any length of time I — Aliout si.\ months. 42667. What system was in force there in regaifj to the licpior traffic ?- A license system. 42668. Does it work very much on the same lines as it does liere? — Very much the same. The only ditt'erence I found was that in some places they had two bars, and even four bars. I .saw more drinking there than in any otlier place in which I have been. That was at MellMiurne. f 42669. Were you in the inland tow tis -Yes, and I found the same state of things prevailed. 42670. Do you think that the temperance and church swieties have e.xercised a good influence on the j)eople here? Yes. I may state, as you have asked for informa- tion, that I have been in Japai^for over two years : and if there are any <|ue.stions you wish to ask in regard to that countiy, I shall be glad to answer them. 42671. How is the liquor traffic liandled there? — They have a licen.se .system there. Until latel)- the custom was to drink the liquor known as saci, a sweet drink made from rice. Drinking was very general there, but the ptdicemen were always on the watch and would take a man up if he got in the least drunk. In fact you could not get out of sight of the police, as they were everywhere, and there were so numy of them. Ljibour is cheap there, and of course it was ea.sier to have a large nunilter. 42672. Were you in China ?— No. 4267.'l. We understiind that you have (piite a large Chinese population here. Is drunkenness very frequent among them here ? — No ; they are very seldom charged with being drunk. Edward Odlum. 644 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 42<574. Hiivf yi>u Immmi iii tin- Fiji Islunds ,' I whn tlifif, liiit I did nut study 'li<' systfiii. 4*_MJ7.'">. Tli«' (.'oiiiiiiiMsioiHTs liiiM- Immmi told liy tin- Hfs. l>r. .SU'wurt, i)f Sinks illt- rnivei-sity, tlmt ilie Fiji Islands i'(tnstituU> IIk- only pliirc where a total [iroliiliitory law prevails ^ I did not tliiiik of asking; anytliiii^ al>oiit it. I liiul a convt'i'satioii witli a missionary tlicD- aliout tlif lial>its and ciistonis of tlic |H'o|ilt', Will as to wlii-tlici' a |>ro- liiliit<»ry law or a license law was in fon-e tli«Te, I lia\'e no recollect i< in. t"J(t7t). I)o you know whether tluit missionary is residing in Canada.' No, he is not : he is in MellMiurne. liy li'r. 1),: MrL,.„>l: t2t)77. You said you were an insurance a;»ent. l)o you know if the com]iaiiies you represent make special rates for property adjoinin;; li(|Uor stores.' Of course litpior stores aiv chai'ifed a hij;her rate than onlinary dwellinj^s. It is a littledilficult to explain that matter. Tin-re are rates according to the risk. Of course there is a liase rate and al>o a base rate for hotels. 4L'()7f'. Is a jtrivate dwellinps for twelve months, and 1 also lived in Victoria. 42690. Did you come Ihm'c fi'om one of the other provinces? — No, I am an Knglish- luaii. 42691. Taking the province as you liavt? .seen it, how do you lind the licen.se law work here? — I think it luis worked all right ; I have not seen iinything out of the way. 42692. Do you think the people in this coimuunity are .solier anil law aliiding ? Yes, as far as I liave seen. t 4269.S. Tliere i.s, of course, a greater population here than in the inland cities ? - Ye.s. 42694. Have v-ou had any experience of a prohibitory law- ? None wiuitever. 42695. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you think a general jirohibi- tory law could Ik- enforced in this piovince ? No. 42696. Do you think there would lie smuggling ? — Ye.s. 42697. Tlie li(|Uors sold by vou, I suppose, are all imported ?— Not all ; some of them are manufactured in CanaiJa. 42698. The liquoi-s you sell have all I )een carefully rectified? — Yes; the (Jovern- nient requires that. 645 i ! Liquor Trafflc— British Colniiibia. 42099. A witnt'Ns wIki j(avo evidotu-e in Victoria or Niiiiaimo nrKcd tliat an injus- tice wiw diint' to the Canadian manufacturei's in the fact tliat t'oieij^n ii<|Uoi-s are allowed to come in that may not havelieen rectitied, while Canadian liijuors were rei|uired t(t he kept two years for rectification piirposi^s ; and that some system should Im- lulopted to place the im{iorted liijuors on the same hasis. What is your view / 1 think im|Htrte,'ht that brewers and distillers should be com}>ensated for loss of plant and machinery '( — Yes, I think they should. 42702. Can you suggest any amendment to the license law as it now exists ? 1 cannot. Hi/ Rev. Dr. MiLeod : 42703. You are manager of the whole Hudson Bay Company here / -Yes, of the whole of it. t2704. Do you think the license law here is well observed? — Yes. 4270"). Then you . TIm'Ii you tliiiik tliat this is a nmul law as it stands? Prptly ){ns?--No : they do not ),'i\e t'lMxl there. There are restaurants attached to many of the hotels, and by visiting theni |>eo|>le can get liquor at any time. 42723. You mean people who j^o theie ?— They ;;et a l»iscuil and sandwich with their licpiur. 42724. Ts that according to the law ?- They are getting food, and they can obtain drink at the same time. 42725. You would do away with that privilege ? -Certainly. 4272(>. Have you any further suggestions to otter? — N«>, I do not know of any at the pre.sent time. This is the tiist year, and the law is yet on trial. 42727. You are now under a new city charter, I Iwlieve ? — Ye.s, and the trouble is that it is liable to be altered at any time by the ^layor and aldtM-men ; it can be amended. At the present time the numlx-r of licenses is fixed at o"), imd I think the number will be increased after a certain population at the rate of f>ne license to 1,000 people. Then there is at the pi'esent time a number of .saliMins, the number being fixed. Suppo.se that one .suloon-ktieper dies or tin; license is cancelled, that cannot be reinstated at the present time ; but the ti'ouble is that by an amendment the law can be altered at any time. 4272H. We understocxl that this city generally works under the provisions of the law ? — ^Yes ; but the Mayor and aldermen can amend the law. 42729. Do you mean that you would not giv«' the Mayor jMtwer in this matter? — [ am oppo.sed to saloons. There are some g(H»d ones that ai-e kej)t in i>roper order, l>ut there are othei's that ai-e not st. 42730. Are j'ou opposed to .saloons on ])rinciple ? — Yes. 42731. Do you think it would be better if there was a law pro-, Kling for the almlition of saloons ? — Ws. 42732. Have you ever consiilei-ed the (juestion whether if the hotel bai- or the salcMjn had to l)e abolished, which it would be better to dis|)ense with .' 1 would favour retaining the hotels, becau.se men can get meals there, and as a I'ulc they are better kept. I merely say as a rule, for of course there are some gurs lliiit till' liis)M-('tn iliese icstiiotiuiis apply to liiiii .' I timl tlie t'olliiwiny |irii\ isimi ; !M. " .Ah Llri'liNf |nN|HM'tiir : (I.) H<' mIiiiII liavc Hii|)t'i'viHJiiii iivi'i' all ihtmoiih tii hIhimi lireiiHi'M iiri' ixxiii'il Cj. ) III' slmll iiiiiki' II tliiii'iiiiKli iiiH|M'rtiiiii of till' iiri'iiiiMt'H miii;,'IiI tn lii' iiii'iisi'il : I.S.I III- Hliall liiikkr all ilii|ilii'ii'H I'i'liitivi' til iiiuttcl'H luiiiii'rtnl with tlir ^raiitiliK "f IIii'Iihi'm h^ iiiav 1h' ii'i|uii'i'il Id Hi'iiiii,' till' iliii' iilMH'rvaiK'i' of tlii' Uy l.a«H nf llir (iiiiiii il ami tn ii'|Hirt tlirirmi in liill to till' Ciiiiiiril : l4. 1 III' nliall viMJI at li'UHt iiiiri' ill ovi'ry iiioiitli, ami nttriiri il iirirNNuiy. I'Vi't'V liiiti'l, Itilliai'il HiilcHiii, liiiai'iliiiK liiiiiHC or iitlu'i |iiililir liuiiHfH, anil all |iii'iiiiNrH lici'iiMi'il l>y tin' City, for the |iui'|Hmi' of axrertaitiiiig Mlu'tlicr the |ierHonH lireiiHeil eoni|ily with the provisions of Ity laus ^o\eriiiii^ lieeiiiteH : l.'i. I He mIuiII iiroNi'i'iite all anil every vjolati'>n anil infiaition of li\ laws afori'Kiiiil, ami lie vigilant ami aetive in the iliHchaixe of liiM ilnty : Hi. I He .sliall kee|i a reronl in :i lioiik or iHioliH, the name ami naiiieri of iierHonx a|i|ilyiiii{ for a lirenxe. the olijt'et ami |iiir|ii»*e thereof, the ilate of the Name, the loeatioii, ili'Mirilitioii, fi/.e, iiiiin her ami si/e of lieilt'iHiiiiK, ami rharaeter of the hoUNe. .sho|i oi othei |ihii'i' for uliieli a lieenm' is sought III' granted, the niiiiilier of tiinex the |M'rMoii or iiei'Noiis olitiiinin^' or hohjiiig a license has oi lime lieen cliurgeil with any hreaeh of the liylawM of the eity. ami any general inforniatiim which may U' of use a» a reference in the future ; iT.I He .shall report at leant once in every niiiiitli to the Council all IiIm proceei lings, rogetlier with astati'iiieiit of all e\peiiseH incurreil in carrying out the liuties of his otiice : iS. ) All fees ami ciiHts incurreil liy him in the prosecution of otfeinlers against the I" laws, not otherwise onlereil to lie paid, hIuiII lie |iaid out of the fiimli of the said city," 4J7I4.' 1)1(1 you call till' atUMitioti of tlm liispt'ctur to tlmse rejiulat ^ f -Tlie position is this : h*' is in the service of tlu> Licetisi' ('oiinnissiniii'i's. Wi- have a by-law of our own whii'ii pivoi-iiM oiirselv0, You think it would not Iki jiracticable .' t^uite so. 4'2~i')\. What is iiece.ssary to make it practicable / There is a Moating' |Mjpulatioii. and there are great ojijiortunities for sinufjjjlinc; find everythini; of that kind. 427'")lJ, You find, I sup|Mise, that the ditlerent church and temjM'rafice .societies are working •leiierally for good ,' — Y'es, I think so. 42753. I suppo.se you Kiid that as the years pass, changes in the social life and customs have occurred throughout Caniula in this direction as well a.s in other direc- tions, and especially in regard to drinking I — I think there is as much drinking now as there was G years ago. 42754. Taking the population here and tlie fact that this is a seaix)rt town, is this an orderly and law-abiding community ( -There is far more drinking now than I like. 4275."). Ill the event of the enactment of a general iirohibitory law, a law to pro- hibit the manufacture, iiiiy)ortation and sale of into.\icatiiig liquors for beverage pur- poses, iiH«>H, I27ti0. Iht the holder"* nf ,sho|i lieenses \i(>|ate the law .' Yes. 427ti|. hii thev sell lii|U((r hy the ;;laHs, t'ot example .' 'N'es. 427*1:.'. Ma.-* thai eume to iheatlentiiiii of tlieCoiiiniisHioners ? K\eilio''(. Has no alteiiipt iM-en iiiaile to check that sale ! Not so far. l-'7til. To M hat !iiiiie(l tile matter pretty well when he saitl that liie | pie diil not think it iliil any harm to ;;o into a liceiiseil house and i;et a ;;lass of liipior. o they atti'inpl to carry out the law ! H>> far as the shop licenses s,'... I dn not think so. J'J"'iS. I >o they attempt to lirini; to IwMik hotel kee|M'r> who violate the Sunday law- .' Ves ; that was done in the tirst instance. i'2H\\). If would appear, then, tliat tlie license law is not enforced in N'ancouverf So far as strictly carryinji out the law, it is a perfect dead letter. 12770. think you said jirohihition would Ix- impracticalile on a<'coiint of the pii' .sent condition of the country. |)o you lielieve in the principle of pi-ohiliition as ap]ilied to the litpior t rathe f I like it well. N// Jin/f/i- Mcl>iiniihl : 42771. Moyoii think the violations have Ix'en more than the prosecutions.' Not alto;;ether, perha|is. I may say that there is a i;''»'"t sentiment here against lieiiiy an iiitormer. 42772. Does the same feeliny; prevail in rejfard to informin;^ alniut l)ur;rlaries and tliefts ! — No; it applies only t(» the liipior traHic. 4277."{. Wiiy '. The |M'ople do not uonsiih-r it is a serious hreach of the law. They look upon it as a hreach of the law, hut nothing; wroii;; in itself. 42774. In this city, which piiys the hi<;her license, the saloon or the hotel .' The saliMdi. We asked tht License lioard to reduce the license fee on ll.i- slioj)s. We con- sidered the dilFerence Wetvveen .'?40U and !?.")()0 tiM) small. We asked that the shop license should he reduced to S2-">(). The reason };iven for refusin;; was. that it would reduce the revenue of the city too much. 4277i"i. What fee diH's the saloon pav : .■?.")00 ; the slujp keeper -irlfK), and the liotel S200. The lar;.'e8t sum is paid by the saloon-keepei', and he says that it is not fair that tlie shop-keeper should do a In-tter triule than he diM's. Not one of them, however, wants to Ixwomean informer. 42770. Y'ou are a License (Joininissioner, we understand ! Yes. 42777. Would you he willinj^ to inform against offenders .' -I have not stated per- sons who were offenders, although I have a pretty jjcMid idea an to those that .sell. 42778. Is there anything' U> prevent you from layinj; an information with the police uifainst such offendt.rs ; There is ; hut I would rather not say what it is. 4277!). The law would allow you to he an informer '.— There is no law alniut it. It is a ({uestion of going to those estahlishinents and bringing Ciuses against them, reniem- lieiing that the persons who fretjuent them and take liipior are peisons occupying very high positions. 649 I ! Si" il Liquor Traffic— British Columbia. 4l'7SO. If there is an evil in tlie coniniunity, whv cin not you and j'our associates remove it ? — T dare say we niiglit try. I have never felt it to i)c my special rience in Turkey ' The Turks of the country dis- tricts ai'e very abstemious ; yet when they go into I'.rge cities, where they come into contact with white people, some of the Mohannuedasued. 4281(i. In the Mediterranian countries do you tind the use of light wines general!' -- Y'^es, principally in Alexandria an more respectable clas.ses a gi-eat deal of light wines is used, indeed, light wines are used at every meal. 42817. Taking your experience in Hritish Columbia, do you think a prohibitory law could be practically enfo red in ttiii- province ! No, I am cei-tain it could not. 42818. What would lie 'he ditticidties here? In the first place, there is an inmu-nse extent of coast, and in the ^c'lntl place, it is sparsely settled. The extent of tiie coast is such that every little bay <-,r iidet might coxer a distillery. The people would either distil li(juor or suniggle iv. Further, we have a large bouiuiary line that it would be impo.ssible to protect. It Aould i-eipiire an ar'my at least, and then I doubt whether it. could be done. 42819. Supposinga general prohibitory law were passed, a law to prohibit the manu- facture, imj)ortation anil sale of ;dcoholic li(|Uors for bevei'age ]>urposes, do you think it would be right th.it brewers aiid ibstillers should be compensated foi' loss of plant and machiiu'ry? Yes, 1 think they sliould be com|M'nsated if a pi-ohibitory law were passed. On the other haiul, if |)rohil)ition became the law of the country, aiul the brewers anil distillers were given jn'oper- notice and allowed time to wind uji their all'airs, 1 do not think compensation woidd be necessary. It would, howexcr, be impossible to pass a pi'ohibitory law and carry it into efVect, l«>cause 1 think there wouki be a I'cvolution in the country before it could l)e carried out. By R,'r. Dr. Mrhod : 42820. T understand yo\i have expressed youi'self as having no objection to the license law as you have observed it here? Yes. 42821. Do you object to the violations of the law concerning which we haxc had cousiderabli' testimony this afternoon? Speaking candidly, I believe those statements have been greatly exaggerated. I have not been in a saloon on Sunday siix'c I have been here, unless I have had some business ; otherwise 1 think di'itiking on Sunday is die exception to the rule. I do not know that I can re.iiembei' positively ever seeing a drunken man on the street. I have seen sonu' on Saturday night aiul I have even seen men jolly, boys Ux), who have had some li(|uor to set them up ; but so far as seeing men drunk on Siuulay is concei-ned, t have not seen one. 42822. Is it good for the Ik»vs to obtain liipior in that way 1 — No. I i i i liiquor Traffic — British Columbia. K 42S"_';}. l>o you see any relation between that (le.scri|itioii of drinking on tlie pai't of the Ikjvs and the Hcensed li(|U()r phiees. Is there any relation .' No. Those young men liave a little jollification, and 1 could not see that any of them were incapable of going right back and attending to their business. On this coast we have a tendency to become more or less .jolly. 42M24. You belong to the Navy. I believe? -To the Naval Reserve. 42f<"2r). It was formerlv the custom, I l)elieve, to gi\c rations of grog in the Navv ? - Yes. 4'J8:.M). But there has lieen a change in that resj)ect .' It is optional with the men now. They can either take their grog oi' not. In India we supplied the men with beer in preference to rum, it was fficially he is not allowed to say a word to the men. If an officer jt»ins a church and becomes a missionary of that church in a lay capacity, he has a right to flo this ; but that is a jH'r.sonal mattei'. 4*J8.'{0. Then it wouhl l)e proper for him to use his intfuence i — Certainly. 428.'U. Would that abstinence be in the interest of the men physically or otherwise, or against their interest ? — I do not know. The present idea is that the physiipie of the .sailors is not what it was '20 or ;{0 years ago. 42S3'J. Do you think that is attributable in any respect to the al»stinence from grog ,' — That is a question I should not like to gt) into. 42S;{;}. I lielieve you have said that you have comt.* to the conclusion that grog is neces.sary to the existence of the Anglo-Sa.\ons ? - ft seems Ut me to l)e so moi-e or less. It seems they cannot get on without it. 4l!8.'$4. In your wicU' observation extending over a h rge portion of tlie world, have you observed whether it interfered with the existence of the AngltvSaxons ? — No. We found in India that the mcKlerate drinker withstood the climate better, and when an epidemic came along he stood just as g(HKl a chance as the total abstainer. It was oidy when a man drank to excess that the li«|Uor ]>rovehibition anil carrying it out thoroughly, that is tfj stamp out li(|uor from the world, it would lie well for all concerned, but I cannot see that it is practicable. Henry A, Mellon 652 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 W. D. HKYDONE JACK, M.D., of Vancnuver, on beint; duly swum, deposed as t\)llo\vs : Jiij Jiitlge Mc/)inui/il : 42838. An; you ii praetisiiij,' physician ? Yes, I am a physician and surgeon. 428.'{9. How long have you resitled in British Columhia ? Nearly three yeais. 42840. Have you resided all that time in Vancouver 1 -Yes. 42841. Did you come here t'roni one of the other provinces '. J had been pi'actisiiig in England for .several years, hut T came here direct from Manitoba. 42842. Have you had any expei'ience of a prohibitory law .' I cannot say that I havt!. The !Sct>tt Act was in force in one of the districts of ((ntario when f was there for a short time, but 1 did not take any notice of it. 4284.'$. Have you been brought otficially in <-oiniection with the working of the licen.se law here .' No. 42844. Oidy as a citizen ?~ Yes. 4284"). How does it appear to work '. Tt seems to work \ery well. I think there are j)robal)ly some violations of it. 42840. Are thert- any amendments that you woidd suggest to the (Commission in regard to the law ? I should not likt; to suggest any, because F have not studied the law. 42847. Taking the experience you have had in England and elsewhere and in Van- couver, and taking into consifleration the fact that this is a seaport town, are the peoj)!e here sober, orderly and law-abiding? I do not think there is any more drinking here than in other cities and seaport towns in H^ngland. 42848. Do you, as a matter of principle, favour prohii)ition or license .' Prohii)itioii. 42849. Are you opposed to the license law on principle ? I prefer prohibition. 428r)0. If you cannot ol)tain ])rohibition, do yon favom- license to free sale i- - Certainly. 428;")1. Inca.se of the eiuiclment of a general prohibitory law, a law to jirohibit the manufacture, importatioit and sale of alcoholic liquors, do you think it would be right to compensate brewers and distillers for loss of plant niul machinery t Provided that a certain time was allowed them to close up their business, f do not think they shou'd be given compensation. 42852. You would either compensate them or give them time to close up their btisiness, I suji[)ose / — They woidd re(|uire one or the other. B;/ Rev. Dr. McLeod : 428i»;{. Have you observed whether the .Sunday law is violated h(M-e or is carried out? — Of course 1 do not come into contact with saloons much on Sunday, but 1 have observed quite a few cases of drunkenness on the streets on Sunday : on Sunday morn- ing as well as in the e\ening. 42804. There has lM.'en testimony given to the effect that in houses of ill fame, nf which there are a considerable miinber here, there is liquor sold without license. |)o you, as a physician, know whether the liquor trade is as a rule cotmected with the social evil ? — Always. 428.')."). That is your observation of it? Yes. 4285(5. Do you believe that total abstinence is compatible with the l)est health ? — Certainly. 42857. Is habitual inntl niotleration. 42902. F)<> ymi know anythin;; of the oharacter of the H(juor sohl iiithis community, anil eing made, how long would the license continue in force ? — One yeai-. Alfrki) St. (iKoiuJE Hammkksly, 656 appl gent do n so h the houe pari beh of tl 8udi • the Liquor Traffic — British Columbia. 42925. At the eiul of that year, could opposition be again made f— Yes, for a fiosh application would have to he made. 42926. Then the licensee would not obtain a vested interest in the license, cf>iitin- yent on };ood behaviour? — No. 42927. We understand that in some parts of British Columbia men havmj; lieense.s do not have to apply for renewals ? -There is an idea that it is so, but it is not really so. 42928. In Victoria we understood that was the practice in some cases 1— It is not so here. There is a provision in the law that if a man absconds, any party iiit;'rested in the house, the owner or the landlord, can apply and get the licen.se issued to him for the house. • 1 1- 42929. If a licensee became ins il vent, his assignee could not put ni the license as part of the property I— No, there is no vested interest in that way. 429.S0. And the executor could notdo anything with it f-^No. So long as the licensee behaves himself, the license is likely to be granted continuously ; but it is in the p.wer of the Licensing Commissioners not to renew it. The Commission adjourned, to resume its sittings in California, U. S. A. »;57 21—42** Liquor Trnffic. APPENDIX No. I. Letter submitted hy Polire Mnt/intrate I'l'fblex, of Winnipeg : He Liquor License Act. Reply of Board of Police Commiasioners to letter from Department of the Attorney-General. The Hoard of Police Commissioners have had referred to them the letter from tlie Attorney- Oeneral's Department, of '23rd ult., in reference to the enforcement of the Licpior License Act in Winnipeg. Having given the matter their best consideration, tliey submit the following as their re-sponse to the conummication referred to, as well as to others upon tlie same subject : — The authority of the Board, under the provisions of the Act, appears to l«j very generally misun- derstd, and to be assumed to be more extensive tlian as a fact it is. This appears from communi- cations to anil referring to the Board on this as well as on other (jiicstions. The police force under the control of tiie Board is a very small one, considering the extent of the territory it is intended to protect, and it is no doubt largely owing to its etlicicncy that an increase in the niuuliers has not yet become an absolute necess^ity. As it is, the patrol service has .so far been contineil within a very limiteij VIkivIvk II. CoriliiKjIfij, of lyinnipfij : (ITV OF WINXII'KC. Id WIKll.KSAI.K IIIPISKS. Average. Stocks carried aiiunint to ■$ •i.')7,(K» .'«!.'{|,IS() Depreciation on altove .'«ir)41,H!l,"),48(l Number of employees '244 7 Yearly wages 8124,1I4 .'*:i,."i4(> Value of bar fixtures and stock ?i>47,;i(M) !?4,20S (Depreciation of fixtures and stocks not given in to the undersigned. Think 50 per cent would be a low estimate.) This does not include the value rif furniture. These aic the figures furnished by ;<."> out of 4ti hotels and restaurants, basing my figures on the above returns furnished by 3.") out of 4(i licen.sees, the full returns would amount to as follows ; — Value of properties §1 ,2cS•2,!M^; Depreciation §(>-S, 1 1 7 Numl)er of employees 313 . Yearly wages .*!!")!(,.") 12 Value of bar tixtureu and stocks .iJlS3,434 Total nund>er of employees 381 Total amount of wages !*203,'2,")2 In addition to the above there are '2 breweries and 2 cigar factories who employ a large number of hands in the city. There are 84 licenses in the Province of Manitoba exclusive of the City of Winnipeg. Value of properties occupied by licensees — Peal estate and buihlings !j ()99,6.i3 Depreciation Nundier of employees .")10 Yearly wages paid them §161,744 In addition to the above there shouhl be the value of the furniture in the hotels (not furnished to me) the depreciation on which as well as the stock and bar fixtures I should estimate would be at least i)0 per cent. The above are the returns furnishetl me by 70 out of 84 licensees in the ])rovince. Basing my figures on the above returns, niy estimates for the full leturns would be as follows ; — Value of properties .S773,5(>2 Depreciation .S4 ir>,()47 Value of stocks and fixtures §ir)3,175 Number of employees ,573 Yearly w ages paid them SnS,?.^ Total number of employees in the province 944 Total wages paid them §382,008 In addition to the above there are 14 wholesale houses and 4 breweries employing a large number of hands. 660 Liquor Traffic. APPENDIX No. 3. 77(1? folhnving provisions of the (/e/ivemnre of d'eneral Confeianre ;e that total ahstinence for tile individual, and total proiiihitioii for the .State, are prineiplex wliieli ulaiin our iiiilieMitatln>; .sup- port as a Christian Chureli. '2. We lielieve and teach that the liciuor traffic cannot be licensed without sin. Into the licensed Imr-room men are tenijited in social and liusines.s intercdurse, and speedily the hahit of social treating; ripens into the liahit of driinkenness. We appeal to you to unite with ns in seciirinv; the outlawry of this aliDiniiiation of desolation the licensed harroom in every community, liy iL-iiu,' your vote and inllueiice against the granting of licenses. When the tratlic is outlaweil we helieve it to lie the ))atriotic duty of every citizen to secure the suppression of all illicit tralhc l>y aggressive legal measures. 3. We are aware of the wide-sjiread indignation '.egarding very inetlicient enforcement of prolii- hitory laws against the li(|Uor tratHc. The liunlen of securing evidence, and of hearing expenses of prosecution is too frei|uently thrown upon private citizens. We helieve that the (iovirmnent should ns strictly enforce the laws against law-hreakeis of the .saloon as against any class of criuiinals. When the Government refuses to tlo this it is guilty of an executive weakness against which we protest. This weakness cannot he remedied if we lessen our efforts or compromi.se with the foe, hut only l)y patient, persistent agitation directed towanl clearing out of all piildic olHces incompetent idlers and sympatlii.sers with the li(|iior trnlHc. 4. We rejoice in the fact that an advance has lieen made liy the Manitoha Legislature in calling for a ])leliiscite vote upon I'rohiliition, anil we pledge ourselves to use our votes and inllueiicu in favour of I'rohiliition. .">. We regret to learn that the Prohiliitory Law, inperfeet though it was, in the Xorth-west Territories has licen repealed in favour of license law. This has lieen followed, we are credihly informed, hy a greater flood of intoxicating liiiuors than has ever liefore liceii witnes.sed. We urge the temperance people of the Territories to roll hack this Hood of iiiiipiity, and unite with Mnnitolia in hringing this great land under the rule of prohiliition, strictly enforced. )i. We recognize the fact that a prohihitory law without a liovernment in sympathy with it, to enforce it as jiart of its policy, would lie a dead law upon our statuteliook. The inconsistency of jirofessedly temperance voters, who preached prohiliition and voted against it in the election of their ctiididates, has in the past defeated their own desire for a prohiliitory law. Also, hy duplicity and craftiness designing politicians have in times past deceived and duped the peojile in their dealing with this question. We therefore urge tiie Christian men of our Church, and of others also, who love their country, to use their votes and iiiMiieuce to .secure the election of legislators who.se past record is clean, and who have shown before their nomination a sympathy with prohibition. .Sudileii con- versions of candidates forottice to this cause 011 the eve of an election are often spurious, and followed l)y grievous back-sliding. The time has, in our opinion, come when the Clinrch of (Iod, of which the ilethodist (Miurcli is an inllnenlial Jiart, should definitely and for ever separate itself from the liquor traffic, and ojipose any (iovernment which leans uiion the liijiior traffic for support. 661 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 APPENDIX No. 4- The foil niving renofntum u'(u unhmittm/ hi/ Kei: A. f'rr/iiharf, of Bramlitn : Tlie minutcH of the Xiiitti Synoil of Manitnlia luul the North-west TerritoritH of the IVesliyterian Church of ('iiiiai)ii, ISHl, show : Thirtfuiitli Seileriint, Tm-silay iiftcriiooii. That from iliHoiigHiuiiM during tlie preHciit flei-tioii of iiieinlwrH to the Northwest ' oil, on the phitforiii iiiul ill tlic press, it wouhl seem proliiihlc that an attempt woiilti lie n' lo change the North-west Act in rehitioii to prohihition. That in opinion of this Synoi), the I'roiiiliition law as it stanils, if properly ailministereil, suits the circumstances of the popiihttion unit state of society of tlie Territories 'letter tlian any propoted Legishition. Tliat the Synod is constrained to express its decided judgment that the spirit of the prohiliition law, has Iwen grossly violated any the Lieutenant-7 )"1 Beer imp 'iteil for sale, limiteil, four per cent alcohol 1 12,4484 Total l.-il ,«ll>1) Liiiuors Hol.l on ilining cars of the Canadian Pacific Kaiiway under permit for wine and lieer, dated .SOtli .July, l8S(i, from the i'lth .lanuary to 2."ith December, I88!»: wine, I(i4'^ galls. ; beer] 2,ti()7 galls. Tlie .similar return for 18!»0, shows the following summary of spirits :- .Spirits- Whisky Mrandy (iin Hum '.'.'.'.'..'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'. Alcohol Wine. Total. Calls. 10,4!t2 l,l"»iA 4,'.oi 120^ 1-.',417 I,4ti4 B««>" 41,0(10 Porter ' .013 Beer, for sale, limit, four per cent alcohol JC;^ 1 kj^ (irand total 15;},(i7(lA Liquors sold on dining cars of Canadian Pacific Railway, under permit for wine and beer, dated 30th , July, 188(), from the 2,'>tli January to 2.'>th December, 1890: wine, 82.i galls. ; beer, 88!) galls. A similar return for I8!U, shows the following : — Spirits— Calls. \\ hisky I2,2.")l Brandy 1,203 <'i" 457 Rum 1()2 Alcohol 328 Total 14^341 Wine l^(52o Beer lH,ti;^2 Porter 281 Beer for sale, limit, four per cent alcohol S6,920.\ C rand total I2l,82oi Liquors sold on dining cars of Canadian Pacific Railwiy, under permit for wine and beer, ti 30th July, 188ti, from the 2r>th January to 2r)th December, 1891 : wine, 76 galls. ; beer, 673 galli lated s. 67 Victfyria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 APPENDIX No. 7. Paj>er submitted by Rohert B. Gordon, of Re.gina . FORM OF PERMITS. North-west Territories. Liquor Permit, No. 5049. Granted to On what ground granted Quantity of liquor granted Date Limit Montii (Back) > Cancelled tl)f. day of 189 Signed, c a o » o S o c 3 S r o North-west Territories, No. ij049. Liquor Permit, Regina, N.W.T., 189 . Within . . . .month from date of is permitted to take into the North-west Territories and to have the same at any time hereafter in liis possession for purposes. -^ Countersigned, Secretary. Lieut. -(iovernor, N.W.T. This Permit can only be used once and must be cancelled on presentation wiiether the whole or any portion of the quantity si)eciHed be brought into the Territories. No further permit will be issued to any one who transfers his Permit or w lio imports or is found in ))ossession of li(|uor imported under Permit granted to another person. NOT transferable. 664 [)4 Liquor Traffic. APPENDIX No. 8. Statement submitted by Robert B. Gorilun, of Rfgitia : Offknces committed in 1892, from January 7tli, to end of October — All others hut Indians and Chinese. ) . the iter .T. Ml (I lier :ity i. my jrts ted I. No. 2 .S 4 .") « 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 U 15 Hi 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 ?» 30 31 32 .33 34 35 Offence. Aggravated assault Assault Assault with intent to do grevious Ijodily harm . Assault police Bringing stolen property into Canada Burglary Beating passage on steamboat Buggery Carrying concealed veapous Cruelty to animals Cutting and wounding City ))y laws, infraction of Deserti )n from Hoyal Xavy Creating a disturbance Fighting Drunks Kmbezzlemeut Forgery j Fraud j( iame laws, offences against I I'^elouy Highway robbery ( ianibliug Insulting language Larceny Infraction Liijuor License Act Lodgings Infraction Militui Regulatious Indecent assault " exposure Malicious injury to propiM'ty Maliciously w binding vjattlo Merchant Seamen's Act Malicious assault Receiving stolen property Necessary witness Resisting police Refuse to jiay wages "ublic morals by-li w, infraction of ■uipplying intoxicants 'ointing a gun Threatening language Unsound mind, etc Vagrancy Act Obtaining money by false pretence " goods " Possession of intoxicants Conunitted in Police Court Totals 1 I 1 1 .3 1 3 81 i 17 244 1 21 5 I 4 «l 18 I 1 4 30 552 Sent for Trial. Dis- charged. 13 ■2 18 1 1 59 11 2 4 1 3 2(i 4 25 13 .5 I 1 13 14 1 •2 Total. <> 43 1 8 •J \ 1 •> .'{ ._) 4 140 II 3 2; 2.")0 I 1 1 3 1 9 50 9 4 4 74 23 17 44 792 ()65 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 ' NDIANS. CHINESE. .2 *> 3 "S 3 „ 3 H .- a o t* •t^ U z ^y *4H :e :S No. c'o c Total. = 5 .^ Total. Ohh ^ oa. SJ JH u X Q u •J. p 1 1 1 .") 1 2 8 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 .... .... 9 10 '27 is 40 11 "2' 12 3 3 13 'hs '. 'so' 14 15 16 17 10 12 22 18 1» (i '3 9" 20 .... 21 1 22 "3' '3 23 .... .... 24 . .... 25 2 .... 1 1 26 27 .... 2 28 4 7 29 30 •2 "4' 31 .... 32 3 33 1 1 T 2 34 ' 35 ".iV "3" 11 '.S8' .... .... 127 10 i;js 05 6 39 110 666 94 Liquor Traffic. - APFHNblX No. g. Rev. Coverdale Watson, of Victoria, submitted tkf J'Mowimj rvport : REPORT OF THK COMMITTKE ON TEMPERANCE. .X°"F,^°""'"'^'*'® *i"'' *^''»'^ '""^ny things might be recorded to show that tlie temnei-ance sentiment is stiU widening and deepening in this province. Cliief amon^ tliem we note the huxe increase in the number of the Independent Order (Jood Temphirs Lodges, and the establishment of tlie Sons of Tem- perance, which lias now several divisions in !':;tive operation. The resuscitation of the I'rovincial branch of the Dominion Alliance and the untiring zenl of the \\ omens Christian Temperance Union temperance workers, have been successful in preventing the Licensing Boards from granting some applications for licenses, and in securing in one of the courts decisions adverse to the liipior interest^.. We record our appreciation of the action of a few of the school boards in introducing scientific temnerance instruction into some of the pui)lic schools, and note with jdeasure the good effect that has been produced by the enforcement of the Sunday Closing Act of the previous session of the Letris- liiture. * We thankfully express our conviction that the ministers and members of our church are still in the front rank of the leaders of the Temperance Reform and of Prohibition. We oljserve with apprehension that the determination of those interested in the li(iuor traffic to wrest from us our privileges, and to secure the removal of the restriction that past legislation has nut upon their previous business. •- a i Eternal vigilance to guard our privileges, iletermined ojjposition to encroacliinent upon our liberties an 85 83 •J() Hi 21 17 12 14 11 12 48 37 41 40 o *) 10 6 3 4 o 2 14() 141 174 l()0 84 4.") (12 09 2.W 186 2m J29 Liquor cases over 75 per cent of total. From all other cases, several, such as assault and vagrancy, might be put down to drunkenness. Besides tiie above from 20 to 30 cases are annually tried by sununons ni the Police Court such as assaults, malicious damage to property, threatening language, &c., the niajority of whicii cases are caused through drunkenness. disorderly ' ^ Drunk Drunk and Drunk and incapable . (living intoxicants to Indians. Intoxicants in possession of Indians White men with Intoxicants in Indian houses. . . NOTES AKB ERRATA. to aU "^'' ^'^ ^'"'^^''''' ^^^^^^ ^"^^ line, substitute word nrre.9/edror words "committed Page 464— 28th line fro.n bottom, insert words or the whim Ijetween the words good-will and " of a government." have "Sfn InstrtJd ^ following explanatory note by Lieutenant Governor Royal should ^^ " Free permits were also given (in 1891) for 1,625 gallons of wine, 18,053 Dillon* " iven fo^r" 1891 " P®™'^'' S'"*"'*^^ ^"^^ «* ^''^' *''•« included in the total ( ? permits) Page471— Question 39097, 4th line, insert word sit- between words "875 each" and months (so as to read : each six months). Page 474— Question 39148, 2nd lino, substitute the word for for the word "after." Page 486— Question 39424, 5th line, insert the word not between the words "is" and " benefited. Page 557— Question 40838, 2nd line, and 3rd line, substitute 2^ for " 28." 11 Index and Analysis of Evidence. INDEX AND ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE. MANITOBA, THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES AND BRITISH COLUMBIA. WINNIPEG. 24th. 25th, 26th and 27th of OCTOBER, 1892. AIRD, ALEXANDER A., of Winnipeg, Clerk of Police Force Page H9 Resident eleven years, clerk ten (.'U93.'5-4) ; Scott Act in Coburg, Ont., unsuccess- ful ; lacked machinery (31937-41); majority of drunkards repeaters; Sunday drinkers (31943-5) ; favours asylum for habitual drunkards ; imprisonment ineffectual (31947-50) ; crime and liquor (31953-64). ARDAGH, Hon. WILLIAM DAVIS, Judge of Eastern Judicial District of Manitoba Page 0» Resident in Winnipeg ten years. Judge nine years, formerly member of Legislature of Ontario, License Commissioner under McCarthy Act (31636-50) ; Scott Act in Siracoe, Ont., failure ; delegalized, more dangerous than licensed, trade ; breweries under Scott Act ; temperance sentiment affected drinking hal)its (31640-3, 31681-94) ; McCarthy Act best yet ; Provincial Act lacks strength (31652-76) ; Sunday selling (31657-8) ; little illicit traflic (31671) ; favours high license with inspection, and hotels only (31659-62) ; prohibition in Maine 25 years ago dead letter (31674-5, 31715-16) ; license preferable to prohibition (31676) ; prohibition promotes drinking (31712-19) ; favours compensation (31679, 31718-20) ; drunkenness and crime (31664-9, 3172.5-:.').) BAIN, Hon. JOHN J., Judge of Court of Queen's Bench of Province of Manitoba. Page 65 Resident twenty years. Judge five years (31557-8) ; license law broken, Sunday observ- ance bad, minor's clause observed, illicit selling prevalent (31561-81 ) ; enforce- ment of all law depends on public sentiment (31582, 31591-2 31612, 3161.5,) ; hotel preferable to saloon license (31575) ; favours high license, limitation of number, regulation and inspection (31576-7, 31614) ; liquor easily obtained under prohibition in Maine (31587-90) ; prohibition practicable (31591) ; law not enforced, demoralizing (31595); crime and. liquor (31598-600) ; prohibi- tion in North-west unsuccessful and demoralizing (31675-9). BELL, GORDON, M.D., Medical Superintendent of Manitoba Reformatory . . Page 172 Resident five years, recently appointed Superintendent (33331-5) ; inmates in asylum and liquor (33336-41) ; proportion attributable to liquor (33342-7, 33364-7) ; heredity (33363) ; Scott Act in Renfrew beneficial (33348-50) ; repealed, peo- ple not in sympathy (33351-6) ; favours total prohibition ; anti compensation (33357-8, 33373) ; total abstinence compatible with best health (33369-72). BROWN, CHARLES J. of Winnipeg, City Clerk Page 91 Resident twenty years (31965-8) ; city obtains revenue from license (31969-72). 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 liUHllANK, KDWAIU) A., of Winnipoj,', Miiimj,aT of Mercliiiiits' Protective Law and Collection Association Piif^e 13*1 Resident in Province four years (.'12743) ; prohibition in Kansas, Iowa and ^fnine, laws without prohiljition : iicpior ohtuinablf by j)liysiciiiMs' lertiticates, "blind pii{s,'' and illicit dives (.'{274r)-71 ) ; United States licenses : possession /triiiia jhcii' evidence of breach of law in Maine (.■<:.'740-(!()) ; statistics for Maine and New Hampshire (;i2778-823) ; local option failure at Carman (;52792-800) ; favours absolute prohibition if practicable, but not practicable (32791-9, 32900); license law well observed in Deloraine (32>HSfi-9l ) ; favours inspection of li(|Uor (32iS40-i) ; favours compensation (32813). COKDINGLEY, CHAKLES H., of Winnipeg, Accounta.it Paye 15U Secretary of Licensed Victuallers' Association of ^^anitoba ; in Province six years, with Villie, Carey A Co., wholesale li(|Uor merchants (3303()-7, 33097-9); license law well observed ; violated by low class ; Sunday sales (33042-3, 33096-100) ; Victuallers' Association en'forces law (33099-108) ; anti prohibi- tion on principle ; prohibition would depreciate property ; li(iuor trade does not ; favours high license (33070-93). COSTKJAN, HENRY A., of Winnipeg, Collector of Inland Revenue Page 14 In Winnipeg fourteen years ; collector six years (300()()-7) ; consumption of li(|uor decreased in last ten years (30670-72) ; occasional illicit distilling (30671-80) ; stills seized ; illicit distillers sell as fast as they make (307421-22) ; smuggling in Manitoba and Territories (30G87, 30690, 30730-33) ; permit system in Terri- tories non-prohil)itory ; diliicult of administration ; permits indiscriminately granted (30711-30728). COUTLEE, LOUIS W.; of Winnipeg, Commander of Field Battery Page 8S Resident eleven years ; formerly connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway ; Deputy Attorney General for Manitoba (31910-12) ; Dominion Public Works Act enforced on construction ; Province of Manitoba sought to put Provincial law in force and issue licenses; unsuccessful (31913-16); Act dirticult of enforcement; smuggling in all shapes (31917-19): prohibition in Maine not observed (31921-4); prohibition impracticable in Manitoba (31913). DREW^RY, EDWARD L., of Winnipeg, Brewer Page 33 In Winnipeg eighteen years (30979-82) ; output of beer steadily increased ; sold in North-west and Manitoba (30983-024; ; permit system beneficial to brewing (31003, 31027); license law increased sales; permits abused (31031-33); license law in Winnipeg well observed (31006-7) ; regulation of tratHc desir- able (31036, 31047) ; high license produces illicit selling ; restaurants neces- sary (31017-21) ; favours compen.sation (^31022) ; anti prohibition (31061-70). DRUMMOND, HENRY M., of Winnipeg, Assistant Receiver 'ieneral Page 04 Resident twenty years ; Dominion Auditor ; manager Dominion Savings Bank (32039-40) ; favours compensation (32050-53). DYKES, ANDREW, of Winnipeg, Tea Merchant Page 117 Resident ten years (32405) ; local option in Melrose, Manitoba, works well ; liquor for private use obtainable ; illicit selling and fancy hou,SbS stopped (32410-33) ; difficulties of license law (32436); unsuccessful in Winnipeg (32499-501); law not enforced (32438, 32474 80) ; favours prohibition : untrammelled sale preferable to license (32439-42, 32511) ; anti compensation (32443-7) ; liquor trade injures business ; depreciates property ; increases insurance (32487-97) ; prohibition desirable ; revenue maintainable (32504-6 ; 32512-15). FERRE, MARTIN, of Winnipeg, Importer and Compounder of Wines .... Page 143 Compounds liqueurs and light wines, not gin ; tonics ; innoccunus in small quantities ; hurtful in large, like natural wines (32908rt). 672 Index and Analysis of Evidence. GAULT, (;PX)I{(iK F., ..f Winnipfg, Wholesale Mfichant Page lai Holds wholfsalt' lifiuor iifPiisc, rt'sident elexeti years, soi'ial lialdts iiii|ii'(>viiig (;iL'5'20-()) ; DiinUiii ami Seott Acts do nut iiitci't'cro witii iii|Uor triitlic (32r)324) ; create hitter feelings; iitjuor for pi'i\ate use (.'{•.Tidi; ."SlTi',!;!-!). Prohibition in liin North-west led to excess ; li(|Uor aluiscd (.'(•JoOli-TO) ; per- mit system good at first; sales largei' now, li(|uoi- tu)w iield in stock (.'{iTt'l-lSH); anti prohibition ; imprni'ticabh^ (.■{•_'") lO-"2 ; .ji'.') 9 ")-(')) ; license pi'efei'able to prohibition (.S'JTjHO). Licensees observe law; would sell illicitly under j)ro- liibition (32r)89-00; .■{2(>28) ; favours compensation (;5l'512) ; favours heavy duty on spirits; high license ; restriction of numbers and suppression of illicit sale (l{2.)l-'5-59) ; favours Uovernnient asylums for intOiriates (;{2r)97-tJO.'{) \ plebiscite vote insignificant (.'(2004). UKABUJINE, C. TL, Clerk of Executive Council of Province of Manitoba. Pago 142 Returns of plebiscite; I'eal desire for prohibition (.'52909-12) ; prohibition beneficial, practicable, necessary to civilization, must come (|uickly (329i.'{-ll) ; favours compensation (32917) ; license law not enforced, defective (.'52920-0) ; license preferrable to untrannnelled sale (.'52023-")). KEN KICK, EDWARD H., Public Analyst, of Winnipeg Page 144 Lecturer on Chemist I'y in l'ni\ersity of Manitoba; niaile analyses of spii'its and beers ; found no harmful ingredients, high standard of alcohol (32931-53) : fi'e- quent analyses of li(|U0i', as sold, desirable (32945-7). KILLAM, Hon. ALP.ERT C, of Winnipeg, Judge of the Court of Queen's JSencli, Province of Manitoba Page 14^ Resident fourteen years, on I'ench seven years ; drinking decreased (32948-.")2) ; Favours restraint foi' persistent drunks (329();'. ; 3297.")) ; Yarmouth, N.S., no licenses issued, illicit sale (.'52904-07); licjuor oljtainable in Maine (.'529(58) ; and in Colchester and Essex under Dunkin Act, and in the North-west Ter- ritory (32970-71) ; prohibition .dithcult, enforcement dependent u])on pub- lic sentiment (32972) ; non-enforced law demoi'alizing ; pUibiscite vote test of public sentiment (32970-7) ; favoui's compensation (32973). LAWLER, PATRICK, of Wiuniiieg, Governor of Eastern District of Manitoba Jail Page «7 Resident twelve years (31878); crime and liquor (31887-92; 31908-9); trade decreased (31894-0). LE ACOCK, E P., of St. Boniface, C. P. R. Agent at Winnipeg Page 47 Resident fourteen years, formerly member of Legislative Assend)ly and Magistrate (3128.")-7) ; prepared license; law adopted by present (Government ; Act spoiled by licensed victuallers' amendments ; not enforced ; [)rosecutions (piashed ; convictions annulled (31285-300) ; plebiscite vote no test of prohil)ition senti- ment (31293-5) : Manitoba not ready for prohibitor, i..v (31304-31) ; vested interests must be protected (31308) ; prohiljition ir ;'i'' N'ortli-west Tei-ritories failed; more drinking then, than at present (3131U-19) ; hotel-keepers best inspectors (31320). LENAN, D. F., of Winnipeg, Hotel-keeper i'age 4« Resident ten years (31280) ; license bur undergone many changes ; content with present hour restrictions (31281-4). McARTHUR, DUNCAN, of Winnipeg, Banker Page 111 Resident twenty years ; social customs changed beneficially ; drinking prevalent ( 1 ) . examples of churches and Lieutenant-Governors (2) ; liquor trade injurious ; cost dead loss (3) ; license fairly observed ; illicit sale exists ; persistent drunk- ards retiuire Government cai'o (4-7) ; prohibition practicable ; favours compen- sation (8-10). 673 21—43** 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 McC'AIJj, KI5KNEZKH, SuporinteiKlfiU of liidiiin Ailairs l'ii«<' lO Duties ill district (30r)15-2'_') ; liidiaiis |)n»liil)itf(l from liqum- : driiikiiiK at tiiiic of treaty liaymerits : ii(|Uor .siipplicd l)y disroimtablc im-ii ;;fU<)i.'()-i^) ; intoxi- cated I iidiiins severely puiiislied (:5(M);iO) ; law eiifoired (.'iOtl.'il l>) ; elFects of prohiliition will show in next ;^eiiei'atioii (IJOOJO")!). McD()NALI>, ALKXANDEH, flavor of Winnipeg . . Page 51 Hesident twent^'-one years ; ("liairnian of Police Comiiiissioners : wholesale grocer (.'il."i,'J'J-H) ; drinking liahits unchanged (lUStn.'.l) ; niode of ohiaining license (,'il3"i3-4):ohservunceof law inipi'ov ing(.'mi.")r), 31lO")-7) : Sunilay '^^IHng exists (3l3r)r»-()) ; minors not supplied (31357-^): grocery and li(|Uiir stores must he sppaiate(313")9); favours liigli license with inspection(313.")ll-(i I); jiermit system produced drinking, not enforced . jn'miits loosely issued (3i;j.S4-"), 31 lU'.MO) ; faxours national proliihition ; pnicticahle (3138(1-1), 31H.'U) ; fas'ours coniiK-n- sation (31404) ; plehiscite vote expressed puhlic sentiment (31111-1")); Scott Act unsatisfactory (3M2()-'J, 31423) ; liquor adverse to wage-earners (31437-41). McLENNAX, 1. K., of Winnipeg, (Jrain Merchant Page 14'7 Hesident four years ; license act not ohserved, antiliceiise (32988-90) ; wants jinj- hibition ; favours high license with insjiection, rather than untrammelled sale (32993-33000); prohihition jM'acticahle (33019); illicit sale preferal)le to licensed taverns (33007-9, .33020-21); disorder under license in Canuan (33010-14, 3302G-3")) ; anti com})ensation, prohihition heneficial to business (?;'015-18). McRAE, J. C. Chief Constable of tiie City of Winnipeg Pag' '< Resident since 1881, Chief Constable since 1887, no special duties under lie (|uiet drunks unmolested ; no police inspection under license (30r)39-.")0, 3 1): houses watched under special instructions (3U")78-y, 30.58r)-92) ; minors and T'-dians obtain liquor (30r)r)4-7) ; hotels pi'eferahh! to restaui'ants (30r)59, 30()0.")) ; law practicable (30r)98) : crime anil li(iuor (30r)7ensation (30G10-1-1). M'JLOCK, WILLIA^I K., Q.C. of Wiiniipeg, President Prohibition League of Mani- toba Page 13» Resident tea years ; use of wine decreasing (32()33-9) ; license law disregarded ; Sundiiy sales ; minors supplied : lack of otlicers for enforcement (32040-54, 32723, 32733-7) ; Government decline enforcement : relations with city strained (326r)3-G0, 32680-")) ; anti license ; prohibition practicable (320.55-67, 32078- 80, 32094, 32708); liijuor commercially injurious (32090-99, 32751); anti compensation (32603-5) ; plebiscite vote expressed public sentiment (32068-76). NIXOX, EDWARD BARXETT, of Winnipeg, Hudson Bay Company's Manager Patre 18 Resident since 1882 (30738) ; Company sell liquor (30748-51) ; liquor sold in Terri- tories under permit (30760, 30785-8) ; Sunday ])rohibition observed (30745, 30790) ; drinking not increasing (30791) ; favours limitation of licenses (30793-6) ; smuggling under prohibition (30770-79) ; liquor under Dunkin Acu in Richmond, P.Q., (308.31-6) ; prohibition impracticable in Manitoba ; would injure trade (30818-30). NIXOX, THOMAS, of Winnipeg, Right-of-way Agent, C. P. R Page 37 Resident eighteen years (31076-80) ; license law disregarded (31081) ; anti license ; license preferable to untrammelled tratKc (31091-5, 31261-2) ; favours prohibi- tion; practicable (32096-108); illicit stills exist (31110-20); anti compensa- tion (31110); liquor trade injurious to business (31111-17); Would confine habitual drunkards (31122-8) ; prohibition effective in Pasadena, Cal. (31129- 37); restaurants preferable to hotels (31164-7); Maine law well enforced (31168-75); plebiscite vote fair test (31200); Methodist Church and liquor dealers (31263-6) ; licensees mostly ruined by their trade (31268-70). 674 Index and Anal vs is of Evidence. J f ^^ OUTOX, (iK()l{(iE, .M.l)„ ««t' Winiiipc;,', Mciliciil InsiKn'tor of liidiiuis Pago 77 Mitiuii inipractieahle, popular sentiment op|iosed (•■2) ; plel)iseite vote no criterion (;M7l>i and liquor (314(>0; 31492-3); li.|uor and lunacy (314G1--J) : proliibitinn in Iowa a iiuge blunder (31460-7; 31514-16); mure drunkards in Iowa than Manitoba (31466-8; 31517-1'0) ; prohibition tor Dominion; unmitigated tolly; impracticable (31521-8); law only partially respected, powerless (31530) ; prohibition class legislation (31551-3) ; bresving industry beneticial (31482); favours compensation (31474). STEWARl, Rkv. JOHN, of Trahern, Methodist Minister Page lOO Resident three years (32278) ; Scott Act in Brome, Knowlton and Mississquoi enforced (322S3-4) , Methodist Church favours prohibition ; men in traffic debarred church privileges (32290-0); deaths from adulteration (32304-0); prohibition voted in South Norfolk: upset through tecliniealitv (3231 1-19 ; 32327; 32332): license preferable to free sale (32308) ; plebiscite vote dead earnest (32329-33) anti compensation (32310) ; crime and liquor (32341). THOMPSON, FREDERICK W., of Winnipeg, ^lanager (»gilvie Flour Mills. Page 113 Resident ten years (32345) ; compels sobriety in employees (32352-5 ; 32300-75) ; Dunkin Act in M'ssisquoi inoperative, a farce (32359-00 ; 32377-80) ; favours compensation (32.302) ; liquor different from other industries (32392-404). TUPPER, RICHARD LATOUCHE, of Selkirk, Man., Dominion Fishery Officer, Page 22 Resident in Winnipeg since 1878 : Chief Inspector under the McCartliv Act ; author of Ma-iiUjba Act ; McCarthy Act beneficial (30841-49 ; 30909-70) habitual drunkards should be treated as lunatics (30862-0) ; drinking decreas- ing (30870-82); hotels prefi-rable to restaurants (30873-8) ; prohibition in Iowa a failure (^0884-9) ; tines instead of license (30943-50) ; permit system in North-west a failure ; compounds used (30959-61 : 30890-0): prohibitory law impracticable (30897-30958) ; favours con.pensatio!i (30899) ; objects of Provincial law (30900-21) : indiscriminate sale evil (30905) : snuiggling in Territories during rebellion (30894); local option ill-advised (30971-2). BR/.NDON, 29th OCTOBER, 1892. BOISSEAU, AL.niED S., of Brandon, Hotel-keeper Page 215 In Brandon ten years ; in ilanitoba twelve years (34203-4) ; License Act observed (34212-15) ; prohibition impossible, legislation unjustifiable (34222 ; 34245-47) ; plebiscite vote a mistake (34248-50) ; meals do not pay hotel-keepers ; li(jUor necessary (34226 ; 34240) ; favours compensation (34225). CAMERON, Rev. ALEXANDER H., of IJrandon, Presbyterian Minister .. Page 1U» In Manitoba eleven years ; two years in North west under proliibition (3.3797-802). High license at Donald failure (.'i3805-i5). Illicit selling at Arthracite j immorality at Revelstoke (33818-28). Prohibition enforced at lianf. (33831). Prohibition desirable, practicable and applicable (33839-41 ; 33853-9). Pro- hibition on Canadian Pacific Railway construction (33942-52). Favours com- pensation (33863-8). CLEMENT, STEPHEN, of Brandon, Sheriff of We.stern Judicial Distrct of Mani- toba Pagc*20« Resident since 1880 (34035-7). Prohibition in North-west beneficial, a farce ; excessive drinking ; smuggling and adulteration (34041-52). Crime and liquor (34054-8). Asylums for inebriates (34060-7). Prohibition desirable, practi- cable (34009-73). Favours moderate compensation (34078-9). c'^^ii'' -" 676 Index and Analysis of Evidence, COOPER, DAVID H., of Brandon, Barrister, Manager of Freeboici Loan and Savings Company Puge 11»3 Resident ten years, license law enforced, violations (.'i.'i74S-r)(\. Proiiihition enforce able; anti compensation (.■i;57-")G-7). Li(|Uor injurious i) business (.S;375S-(38). DANIELS, Rkv. S., of Brandon, Methodist Minister Page; IHH Favours total proiiibition (;5;?r).'}r)-8) : for Dominion, not Province (3.'U)'il)). Enforce- ment dependent on public sentiment (3.'?()4l-4). Anti cumpensUion (."5304.")). Prohibition beneficial in North-west Territories : ^lounted I'olice vigilant (33047-06). FERGUSON, WILLIAM of Brandon, Wholesale Liciuor Dealer Page 199 Resident ten years, license enforced in Brandon (33.'^9S-()00]. Hotels ilepend on liquor (3394!)-o5). I^avoui's asylum for i)ersistent drunks ; law allows interdic- tion (33901-"), 33- 17). Favours universal prohibition; impossible in i' ,nit()l)a ; favours com- pensation (3.3938-41) ; would produce smuggling (.■')3939-47). HESSON, FRED H., of Brandon, Collector of Customs Page 175 Resident ten years (33374-5). Liquor traffic under prohibition in Brandon (33379- 83, 33390-402). Drinking inc?eased under license (33403-(;). Prohibition impracticable J favours compensation (33393-4). License law enforcer! prefer- able (3339')). HUG HILL, L. F., of Brandon, J..urna!ist Page 1«» In Pi ovince twenty year.-, (33Cf:)b-70). Prohibition in North-west not enforced; snuiggling; heavy drinking (.33070-80, 33707-13), Exterision of permit decreased smuggling (33()Sl'-()), License pivferalile toprohibition not enforced (33087). Isivours hiirh license and restrictions ; hotels pieferable to saloons (330i>7-8). Prohil)ition tlioi'oughly ei-forced good, impracticable (.3,30.'^8-90, 33719-2"_'). Non-enforced law evil (.33ii94-(>), Plebiscite vote no ci-iterion (33723-38). Favours compensation (33692). INKSTEB, COLIN, of Kildonan, Sheriff of Eastern Judicial District of ^fanitoba. Page «>1 Enforced license before confederation (31977-31997). Beneficial cliange in public o[)iiiion (.32034-7). Prohibition good if practicable ; favours compensation (32024-30). JENKINS, Hi.;v. AV. H,, of Brandon, Baptist Minist.'r Page 213 Resident two years (34150). Scott Act enforced in Advocate, N.S. (34163-71). Favour's prohibition ; lic(Mising wrong ; anti compensation (34172-80). Baptist Conf« rence deliverance (34170-1). JOHNSTON, WILLIAAr, of Brandon, Agricultural Implement Dealer. . . .Page |«5 Resident ten years (33744) ; moi'e drinking und« Dunkin Act in (irey, Ont., than under License ; Act impracticable (.337t !, 33789-9.3) ; faxouis proiiibition (33785-7). JUKES, EDWAIiD, of P.randon, Manager of Imperial Bank Page 203 Resident thirteen years (.33944-5) ; number of licenses immaterial ; hotels prefei'able to saloons (34001-2, 34017 30) ; anti j)rolubition (.31006-7) ; prv Dominion, not Provincial legislation (34144-50) : favours compensatinn (34110-13); moderate use of alcohol not injurious (34121-3, 34127-^) : :S569-71) ; strict en- forcement desirable (33585-7) : favours restriction (:>:i()l8) : persistent drunk- ards deserve flogging (33572-3, 33605-13) : favours iiiuli license : prohibition im[>racticable (3:5575-8, 3:5589-95) : drunkeiniess lieicditary (33622-4) ; authori- ties favour licensees (:53622-3) ; total abstainers arc licst men (336:51) ; favours compensation (:53579). TODI ), JOHN CAMPDEN, Police Magistrato of P.randon Page H84 Resident eleven years (33182-3) ; adjudi' .tes on all otl'enccs : frequent cases of Ijreach of license (:53188-98) ; high license does not lessen drinking (33207-11, 33223- 9) : difKculties of conviction through witnesses (32:i:5U-39) : crime and liquor ■ (33204, 33240-4) ; prohibition only remedy : praetieahie (33205-15, 33255-7) ; plei)iscite vote expressed public sentiment (:5:52"i2-tW ) : fn\ours compensation (33222). URQUHART, Rkv. ALEXANDER, of Urandon. Preshyt.iiMn .Minister. .. Pag- IHl Resident nine years (3:5501) : evil effects of liquor (:i:55rj-14) ; crime and immor- ality due to li(iuor(:5:555',t.60) : favours prohibition tor Dominion ; pi-acticable (33520-9) ; action of .Synod (3:5532f(-:59) ; permit ]iret'erable U> license ^33534- 48) ; anti compensation (3:5530-33). WOODSWORTH, Rkv. JAMES, of Brandon, .Methodi-i Minister Page 202 Resident ten years (3396:5-4) : agrees in deliverance of .Metliodist Ceneral Assem- bly (3:59(57-8) ; prohil)ition practicable (3:5985-7) : anti compensation (:5:5979- 80) ; licensing sin (:5397;5-6) ; permit system loosely administered (:5:5988-(ll ) : drinking increased under license (:!:5992) : lii|uor traliic injurious in morals, religion and business (3:5981-2) ; responsilde for crime (:5398:5). 678 Index and Analysis of Evidence. REGINA, 31st OCTOBER, AND 4th OF NOVEMBER, 1892. ARKLE, GEORGE, of Regina, Farmer Page S49 Resident since 1888 (.■U814) ; prohibition in Iowa a fraud (."54824-0) ; license pre- ferable to prohibition in North-west (34827) : permit system class legislation (34848-50) : compounds used (34830-7) , prohibition impracticable and in- jurious (34834-0 ; 34857-8 ; 348G3-6 ; 34880-7) ; favourscompensation (34830) ; license law violated (34809-73) ; liquor trade beneficial for revenue (34879-5) ; favoui's inspection (348!<9-91) ; Public Works Act beneficial (34893). BEXSON, JAMES H., of Regina, Sheriff of Judicial District of Western Assi- niboia ^''ig'- 25itt Resident ten years (34620-3) ; permit system enforced at Krst ; li(iuor (il)tainable ; snmggiing and illicit sale (34029-33; 34044-81); 4 per cent Ijcjer increased drinking (34030-7; 34049-50); sentiment against police (34040-8): ])rohibi- tion impracticable (34038) ; opposed to principle (34000-1 ; 34004-7 ; 34072-4) ; prohibition enforced, advantage doubtful (34084) ; license observed (34602-3). BROWN, GEORGE WlLLIAil, of Regina, Law Student Page »53 Resident ten years (30873); poriiiits rarely issued at first: smuggling existed; inci-ease of permits, more liipior ; 4 per cent beer caused free sale (3()S76-9) ; popular sympathy anti permit (30882-3 ; .30947-53) : Mounted Police enforced law (30912-20); "license incrensed drinking (308.S0-2 ; 30939-44): plebiscite refused (30953-0) ; no temperance organization in last election (30950-8) ; pro- hibition practicable (30885-0: 30S89-91 1 : 3()921-29) ; anti eonipensalion (30887-98). BROWN, JAMES, of Regina, Secretary of the ! ;oard of Educiti. 4958 ; 35007-^): favours compensation (34959): persistent drunks shoiil« Resident fourteen years (3()990) ; Scott Act success in Elgin County,* >nt.. (30997 9); lessdrinking under permit than license (.37001) ; ii''>'niit practical)le (37014; 37022) ; permits re-used (37007-S) : >b)unte(l Police enforce law (37024-5) ; in- formers looked upon with coMtem[it (37030-0) ; fa\nurs prohibit ion : anti com- pensation (.37001-0): license no improvement (.370lU-13j; Scott Act failed iu AUiston (37019). COLPITIS, EN( )CH, (.f :\Ioose Jaw, Gardener I' ige :M,"5 Resident ten years (.36090); jiermit system prohil)itory at first (307<'l-25) ; diink- ing incre.'isfil with 4 j)er cent beer (.30707-9 ; 30720-2!!) ; faxnurs jirohibition ; practicable in Moo.se .law (.3G71S-2"J ; .'{4707-7-); reconmiendations of ajiplicant re(]uired (.■{477.'i); 4 per cent i)oer beneficial (.'54774 ; .'54709) ; permits increased to suppress snuiggling (•'54794-0) ; increase in consumption and jiojiuiation proy)ortionatP (.'5477;"'>-!^0 ; 34797-800) ; lic(>nse not enforced (34701-4) : favours com|)ensation (3170.')-0) ; prohibition beneficial if it could be enforced; general ])rohii)iti(in would not work (34784-810). ' . GAdNON, SEVERE, of Regina, Superintendent of North-west Mounted Police. Page .S Resident nineteen years (35094-99) ; liijuoi- scarce at Edmonton (3,")701-'j) : drink- ing bouts undei' permit {.'?.")708-9) ; seizures unilcr permit (3.")710-18) ; favours use of wines and ales (357l'1 ). GILLESPIE, DAVID H., of Regina, F.ivery K.-eper Page »4« Resident ten years (.'50708-9) : license i>referable to permit (3077.'5-4 ; 3()7''^-) ; better for l)usiness (.'50775-7) ; compound drinks under jiermit (.'50778) ; i)ro- hibition, if enforced, good (3078.'5-88). GORDON, ROBERT II., of Regina, Clerk of Legislative A.ssembiy ami Secretary to Lieutenant-tiovernor P'>g** 22^i Resident sinciH 885 (.'54419). PiM'mit system impracticable; issue increased with population, and to decrease smuggling (344l'3-30 ; .'>44(').'5-70) ; permits issucul by Goxernor on reconnnendation (.'54444-0 ; 34471) ; no second supply on same permit (34454-8) ; liquor sold under permit (.'540()O-4) ; prohibition impi'actic- al)le ; proved by permit system (.'5 1 t.'5l' .3 ; .')448l'-.")) ; license preferable (34437-43 ; 34477-81) ; favours compensation (34481 ). HARVEY, JA.MES, of Indian Head, Parmer Page 251 Itesidcnt ten years (.'54894) ; prohibition successful (31S9S; 31903); favours pro- hibition (34902 : 34908-10) ; Mounted Police enforced law (34899-900); anti compensation (34914) : license increased (blinking (.'5491 5-20) ; jirefers pei'mit to 4 per cent beer or license (.'54932). HENDERSON, WILLIAM, of Regina, Architect anil i'.ngiiu'er Page 23» Itesident f(Uirteen years (.'55012) ; license expedient, prohibition preferable (35017- 20) ; favours high license and restriction (.'55028-31); permit system not suc- t'c.ssful, preferable to 4 per cent beer or license (350.'52-4 ; .'55040-47) ; favours compensation (35027). HONEY.AL\N, JOHN R. C, of Regina, .lournalist Page »,».H Resident since 1885, formerly on Mounted I'oiice (.'50983-5) ; police enforced iier- mit (30980-88) ; faithfully patrolled the country, prevented smuggling and .seized illicit stills (3099.'5"). JOHNSTON, TIIO:MPSON COOK, of Regina. Barrister Page 201 Resident ten years (.'55054) ; Dunkin .Vet in York County, Ontario, in force two yeai-s, found insuHicient, repealed (35058-9 ; .'5.5070-85) ; pniliibition in North- west impossible of enforcement, smuggling carried on (.'! 5000-0 ; 35095-10.'5; 35119); prohibition impracticable (35002-0 ; 35080-93); popular sentiment 680 Index and Analysis of Evidencfj. >-i ti lit irs ll- :5; nt JoiiKSTOx, Thompson Cook. — Cotufudnl. iinti }»r()hil)iti()n, pi'ctVrs liociisc (.'5")OS7 S ; .■J")l.S'_'-.'i) ; fiuours coiniiciisation (.'JoOd'.)) ; liij{li lifi'iisc ami ins|if(.'ti(in (.'{rjOTl!-."!) : license system not ent'ori'ed (3r)107-ir2 ; ;■).") 1 -0-2) ; Iiuliiiiis aiul lliilf-brceils |)r<)liil>ite(l niider license (;551. ■?!)). KKlil!, .lOJlN H., of |{egin;i, Huitlwaie Merchant. . '. I'ii-e »51 Resident ten years (.'JGSH) ; jirefers iicen.se to permit (.'?Gi'< Id) ; snmu^^iinj,' uiidei- j)ernait, eonijxjiinds used (iJCiS 17-.' I) ; pr()liil)iti()ii inipiiu-licMhle i:i '{"cT'iilnries (."UlS.")!') ; iinti proliihition (.■5(')St)4) ; aj)pr<)\i's jiroiiilMtoiy clauses in i,icense Act (.'?()SC,*)-'.)) ; favoufs compensation (.'{70.")',)) ; t';i\nurs enforced iiii;li license /■tTAc. I i: •!7n7i: s!\ (:{70(;4-(i, .•!707()-S). IvlNCi, ihcv. JOHN H., liejrina, I'.aptist Minister Resident one year, from .St. .lolni, N.I!. (."{(I JSO-l') (."{(i 484-5) ; dissatisf.'iction witli ad Payc ItlUi ieense as had as proliihitiun (.■5()484-5) ; dissatistaction with administration of j)ermit system (.'Ui4S."» S, ;5(i4'J(;-7; ;U).'>04-.")) ; Mounted I'olice enforced law (:U)r)12---':'{) ; license inex- pedient, restricts tratlic, provides tor incal option (.'{(i.^Ol'-ii, .■t().");$()-4L') ; pu])u hir sentiment fa\<)ural)le to proliihition (i5(i l'J.">-.")01 ) ; Scutt .\ct in St. .lohn, N.r.., .satisfactory (.•!(ir);L'-4). MuNAB, WriXTA.M, of lianfF, Tlieoloi;ical Student ..f the I'reshvterian Chur.h I'a-e .|,>« Prohibitionist, anti license (.'{'.K)2S-.'iO) ; drinkin;;' uniler permit; system not enforced : Mounted Tolice hlamed (IJOO:!!-;"), .-{'.lO.i'J, .■5l)047-.')l) ; license injurinus (:ii)03()-S) ; people want proliihition (;{!l040-()). McLEOD, Ri;v. AN(!US J., of {{ejrina, I're.shyterian Minister I'au'e liAli in (lovernment Indian School at l{e<;ina one and a half years, formerly at r.anlV.uid ]Medioiii(! Hat (.'UilJ.'i.'i-til) ; ajfitation at l>anffon litjuor sales .'uid smuj,'>;lin.it (3()(ll)G-70) ; also at Medicine Hat (;{(l()7-) : Mounted Poli(;e and smu.uv'lin.i? (3G()70) ; stri<'t, proliihition lu^cessjiry anion>,'st Indians (.'UitMl-S.'i) ; permit preferahle to license (.'{(itiSt)) ; favours jtrohihit ion : anti compensation (.'ilKiSl- 1). MOWAT, DANIEL. .M.L.A., of i!e.!,rina, Merchant Pa.t,'e 225 Kesident twelve years (IU.'{0(i-70) ; proliihitory law satisfactory till lieei' |)ermits (.'i4:{7l-)S!)) ; favours permit .system, jiendinij Dominion prohibition (.'M 4(1.") 7) ; anti comjuMisation (."il.'iSl); prohibition practical)l(! (.1 140'.)- 1 1 ) ; Lej,dslat me refused plebiscite (:i44] l.'-l."j). PERRY. A. ROWEN, Superintendent of North-west Mounted Police pa^'c 2«!> Kesident ten yeai's ; jurisdiction and duties of ])olice (.'i.'iL'.'iS-ll') : prohibition i,'oo(| at first: smiiifjrling supjiressed (.'i-'")L''JI-.'")i, ."{."iL'tlD-L') : permits fraudulently obtained (.'i.'')l.'71 ) ; comjioji.nds used (.■>.'")2.")7) ; dillicullies of cnforcini; law inerea.sed l)y foui' per cent lieer (.'i.">lM)7-8) : law beneficial duriiii; lailway con- struction (.3.">L'ti3-4 ) ; i>roliibition beneticial, backed by public opinion {'M'i'27'2--'>, 3.") I'S !-■_•) : jn'oliibitory clauses of license law popular (3."rJ7(( .'^0). POPE, J A M IvS ( '., of Rejj;ina, Chief License- Inspector, and .\ssistant .Accountant of Noi'tli-w((st Territories Pa.ue *2H'i Resident ten years ; formerly in charge of permit system (34I93-.")00). I)e|)iitics enforce license law (.'Vi.")L")l !•). Prohibition impracticable, else desirable (34.")0l', .'<4.").'>:i-.")). License popular (.'VI .■)('•■_'). Smugglini; existed under permit law (.'Uno.'J-l 1 ). Trouble with Tndians at Princ.' Albert (34.")20 ni ). Scott Act impracticable in Prince Edward Island (.'M.")l'3-.'{7). lie-called. Page 242. Local oj)tion clause in licensing act useless (.'i I ()'.••") 70."i). 681 £ 57 Victoria, Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 REED, HAYTER, of Regino, Indian Agent for Manitoba, Keewatin and the Nortli- west Territories Page 233 Resident since 1883. Permit system successful at first (34.^0:5, 34327). Popular sentiment against law ; permits loosely issued (.34307-8, 34328-it, 34342-3), Smuggling and disorder under system (34344-r)8). License law preferable if enforced (3431 2-15). Prohibition impracticable ; favours compensation (34316- 20). Indians and prohibition (34321-6, 34353). RICHARDSON, Hon. HUGH, of Regina, Presiding Justice of Supreme Court of North-west Territories Pa"e 310 Resident sixteen years (34251). Permit system satisfactory; abused latterly (34250-61,34271-8). Liquor and crime (3427iMS). ROYAL, Ho\. JOSEPH, Lieutenant-Governor of North-west Territories. ..Page 4«2 Statement comprising introduction, condition on ids taking office : 1. Permit law ; 2. Its results : 3. Social changes : 4. Difficulties from change of circumstances ; 5. Precautions adopted ; 6. Public opinion asserts itself: 7. Statistics. SII5BALD, JOHN B., of Regina, Merchant Page 373 Manager Western .Milling Co., ten years (35287-8). Prohibition unsuccessful (352i)5-6). Driidving increased under license (35297-8). Compounds used (35300-402). Favours compensation (35296). SMITH, JACOB W., of Regina, Hardware Merchant Page 334 Chairman License Commissioners, resident ten years (30430-40) : prohibition good till 1S89 (30444) ; tiien permits loosely issued : liquor brougiit in ; police relaxed vigilance (36445-50) ; license law not enforced (30451-79) ; favours prohibition ('36458-02). AVELSH, Ri:v. JOHN Iv., of Indian Head, Presbyterian Minister Page 3«5 Resident two years (35 1 44) ; drinking undei' 4 per cent beer less tiian under license ; smuggling extensive (35154-5, 35160-79) ; license law not enforced (35160-01) ; prohibition and license law inoperative (.3521 ("<- 19, 35232-37) ; licensing absurd ; prolulntion desirable (35190-7, 35209): practicable (35220); anti compensa- tion (35202). WILLIAM JAMES, of Regina, Police Constable Page 243 Resident five years, formerly in ^[ounted Police (34707-9); prohibition good in principle ; impi'actieable (34713-18, 34728-30, 34734-0, 34742-3) ; police powers of search under prohibition (34716); difficulties of enforcement (.3 1719-25) ; anti compensation (.34740). WILLIA31S, RICHARD HENRY, Mayor of Regina Page 333 Resident ten years ; ex-officio Police Magistrate (30403-7, 31)414-15): presides at police court ; hears license cases ; drunkenness increased under license (30416- 20) ; prefers prohibition, or enforced permit system, if jiracticable (304 21-29) ; Mounted Police enforced law (.304.34). WILLOl'GHBY, JOHN H. C, M.D., of Regina Page 32» Resident ten years (36327-32) ; mend)er Town Council (.36.334-0) ; permit unsatisfac- tory ; smuggling; excessive driidyterian Cliurch soiiools for Sioux Indians tliirtccn voars (.•U)200-l ;3Gl'08 ;;U)2--'l). Difficulties with liquor under permit (L'C.-JOO-lU). |{arity of drunkenness an»on<,'st Indians before license (."Jfl-Jl.'Mti ; .'{(L'li^J-.'Jl ). Favours prohibition (36225-7). BETTS, JOHN W., M.L.A., of Prince Albert, .Merchant, I'nse »! 1 Resident fifteen years (SdOO.'}-")) ; anti pei'niit ; system unsatisfactory, unpopulai-, unenforc.'d (;5()00<)-ll ; 3r)021-;{ ; 3G0:U ; :5r)042-;5) ; favours hij,'!) IIcImisc (.SilOrj) ; license enforceable iwtter than permit (3(i01-'{-l.j) ; license Act observed (3G010) ; favours compensation (30024) ; national [nohibition practical)le ;- favoured by popular sentiment (3(!044-")3). COTTON, JOHN, of Prince Albert, Superintendent North-west Mounted P.)lice Pa.u'c »23 llesidcnt ten years (3-")4">")-0) ; duty is to enforce permit system and prohibition to Indians (3")4G2-G) ; smuj,'gliny under permit ; law evaded ; police obstructed j (3r)4G8-S5 ; 3r)r»0()-4) ; injurious effect of Judi,'o Rouleau's iu(lj,niient (3.").")0S-9); witnesses' weak memories under permit system (3o48G-',)) ; license law enforced (35497) ; precautions to prevent Indians obtaining licpior (354l)S-9 ; 35510.) DAVIS, THOMAS ( )., of Prince Albert, Merchant Page »a:i Resident twelve years (.3G232-3) : prefers licen.se to permit (3G23G-,S) ; periodical drinking under permit ; snuig^ling existed ; compounds used (.30239-44) : favours restriction of license (.30254-5); anti prohibition ; favours compensation (30252-3). DONALDSON, SAM UEL .JAMES, Mayor ot Prince Albert Page 274 Resident since 18H7 (.35305) ; permit system satisfactory at tirst ; abused finally (35.313-12) : ])ermits unlawfully use,, Conmiissiotier .if Nortii west Mounted Polic Pag:' 2H7 Resident thirty years ; formerly )ii Indian Department (.3551 1 : ."i552l-2) : Mounted Police and snniggling (.35520) • difHculties in I'estraining Indians fixmi lic|uoi' uiuler prohibition (35523 : 3.!>500) ; law evaded to obtain lii|Uor (.35527-32 ; .35582-5) : methods of smuggling (3553.3-42 : 35580-7) : illicit distilleries acti\e (.355.39-42) ; permit system (lefecti\e ; local Governor not the man to grant them (35551-4; .3557-3-80); license system preferable, violated (3555.3-5 ; 35508) ; favours one entrance only to hotels (35557-01) ; increase of dritdlic si-ntiment (36125, 36129, 361.31); drinking on Indians reserves under license (.36117-18): drunkenness increased under license (36119) : pi-ohibition dasirable if enforced for nation, but very ditlicult of enforcement (36123-25, 36132-33) ; anti general compensation (36135). McKAY, THO.MAS, M.L.A., of Prince Albert, Farmer Page 314 Native (:i()()56-58) ; abstilute prohibition in early days ('36059-63) ; liquor inti'oduced after Confederation (•■)6068-70) : permit system imperfect, not enforced (36071-6); License Act satisfactory (36079) ; favours compensation (36081-2). IMcTAGGART, JOHN, of Prince Albert, Dominion Land Agent Page 321 Resident eight years (36257-60) : permit system unsatisfactory ; administration lax ; permits loosely issued (36262-.3, 36279-83) ; licensing wrong (3(5267-8) ; increased drunkenness (.36265, .36297) ; license or ))rohibition no issue at electi(>n (.36285-9, -36298-9) : favours prohibition ;anti compensation (.3(')266-71). NORMAN FRANCIS, of Prince Albert, Insj.ector North-west Mounted Police Page 292 Resident nineteen years (.35607) ; li(|Uor for sickness only in 1877 (35609); corro- borates Col. Herchmer and Supt. Cotton (35611-12); modes of smuggling (3561.3-20); little licjuor on Canadian Pacific liailway construction (35685); license reduced illicit selling (.356.37, .35639-41); licensees best detectives (35642-6) ; Scott Act failure in St. Thomas and Yorkville, Ont. (35662-90). REED, JOHN L., of Prince Albert, Dominion Land Surveyor Page 300 Chairman of License Connnissioners, resident twenty-one years (35783-86) ; Scott Act failurv in Durham County, Ont. (35789-94, 35866-7) ; license preferable to permit (35794) ; extensive smuggling, compounds used (35797-802) ; national prohiliition impracticable, favfiui's compensation (35><03-5, 35823-7, 35841-2); license law enforccil by ^lounted Police (3581 7-22) ; favours asylums for persist- ent drunks (35850-56). ROBERTSON, PETER, of Prince Albert, Chief Constable ami License Inspector. Page 2»8 Resident nine years (35725-7) ; has to enforce law (3573x-5) ; law well observed, drunkards mostly Half-breeds, license preferable to permit (35736-41) : less drinking than under permit (35371-3) ; recalled, page 319; presents statistics of arrests (36136-8). 684 Index and Analysis of Evidence. ROCHRSTER, Ukv. W. M., of Prince Albert, Presbyterian Minister Page 30-i Resident two years (35,^09) ; Hcott Aot in Carleton County, in Stormont and Cornwall a failure (35874-80) ; beneficial (;\')920) ; bmuglit into contempt and repealed (SoOoO-o.'i) ; anti license (35888-9); drunkenness increased under license (35885-6 ; 35921 ; 35927-8 : 25930) ; prohibition or license no factor ia last election (35925-0 ; 35937 ; 35947-8) ; favours prohibition ; practicable (35890-9) ; anti compensation (35900-7). STULL, JAMES P. A., Prince Albert, Clerk of Municipality Page :|16 Resident since 1885 (30083-7) ; permit system a failure ; license worse ; nuire drinking (30990-97) ; city receives license! fees (30098) ; anti license ; favours prohibition ; anti compensation (30104-10). "\VE8TWOOL), ANDREW, of Prince Albert, Hotel Clerk. . . Page »!» Resident eightet^n years : formerly in North-west Mounted Police (.3()l40-4) : per- mits at first issued by police otHcers (30145-51) ; suniggling in all siiapes for white men and Indians (30152-0) ; police endeavoured to enforce law (.')0180) ; licen.se system observed (30180; 30197-9); drunkenness less, more observ- able (30181-4). O ALGARY, 7th of NOVEMBER, 1892. CAYLEY, Hon. HUUH ST. QUENTTN, M. L. A„ of Calgary, Chairman Ivxecutive Committee Page *2iili Resident since 1884 (34567) ; No license at first ; police endeavoured to t>nforce prohibition ; exceptional powers ineffectual (34571-4 ; 3458>^) ; permit law not ob.served (34590-009) ; people demanded liicase (3457()-i)) : permits gi\en l)y favour (34597-002) ; absolute prohibition necessary (34010-11); violated law demoralizing (34016). COSTICAN, JOHN R., of Calgary, Barrister Page 398 Crown Prosecutor for District of Alberta, resident since 188.3 (37S1.'{-15) ; license preferable to permit (37810) : permit difficult to enforce ; pojiular .sentiment opposed ; smuggling rife : majority of li([uor 'lliciily procured ; permits fraudu- lently I'e-used ; 4 per cent beer meant whisky (34818-31); witnesses" forget- fulness in liquor cases (36833-7) ; prohibition beneficial : impracticable ; in- advisable ; involves compensation (37832-40; 37850-7); lioteLs preferable to saloims (37841-5). CUTHBERT, A. ROSS, of Calgary, Inspector of North-west ilounted l\)lice Page';W5 Resident since 1885 (37509-72); Mounted Police had to enforce permit, tried to in face of many difficulties. Much smuggling and many seizuies, small percentage seized. Permits misus id. Witnesses hard to procure uo offence to lie; com- pounds used and illicit distilling (37573-90, 37597-000) . ci.nteen arrangements (37609-16); temptations to police constables (37017-24, 3V{j.")0-l); impossible to enforce prohibition without popular support. Prohibitory clauses of Ileuses not carried out (37591-6) ; saloon licen.ses under permit difficult to manage (37625 30, 37647-9); permits ante-dated and handed round (37031-41) ; four [/er cent b3er increased smuggling (37641-6.) Recalled page 397. Difficulties of convicting for selling under permit (37806) ; convictions of Indians and Half-breeds for having liquor (37808-12). 685 57 Victoria. CuTHBEhT, A. Ross- Sessional Papers (No. 21.) -(Jontinu<:d. A. 1894 Kc-callcd page 402. Applications for permits referred to ])olice officers (.'IGDOD-l 1.) Suppioiiientary statement in re possible bribery of members of police force, and attempts tliereat : convictions for "selling'' vn. convictions for -'having in j)Ossession." liesults of establishing iioliee canteens ('M\)l'2). DTCIv, FRANK, of Calgary, License Inspector Page ii74. Formerly in lumber trade, resident in Calgary about three years, first Inspector under license (37."{."5'J-4.'{) ; Inspector's (luties {'M'Mu 71); performed iiis duties honestly and faithfully, recommends front bars and no curtains {lil'.il't-') ; license system preferable to permit (37344) ; more plnces selling li<|Uor in 18)S4 than now (37348-53) ; illicit sales still going on (3737-) ; sale became general about two years before license (37354) ; prohibition could be enforced if proper methods were adopted (3735G-7) ; ^founted Police not light men to enforce pro- hibition (37358-08). DOWLINCl, THOMAS, of Calgaiy, Collector of Inland Kevenue Pag.- HHH. Joined police foi'ce in 1878 (37174-81) ; permit system diligently enforced in face of (litliculties : smuggling and illicit stills put down : police powers of search (37 182-90, .37205-7, 37213-7); prohibition enforced during railway construc- tion (37208-12) ; less drinking under license (.37218-2t),) ENGLISH, THO:\[ AS, of Calgary, Chief of Police Page 370 Chief of Police 22 months, came from Winnipeg, nothing to do with enforcement of license law (37227-35, 37257, 372G5) : license works better than permit : liquor sold openly under pei'mit (37230-45, 3720t)-7I, 37272-80); more liquor drank now ; wants front bar.s with uncurtained windows (37240-50) ; sales after hours going on (37259-00) ; Mounted Police only look after Indians (37252-3) HODDER, EDWARD, of Calgary '. Page 37« Retired Merchant, resident six years (37385) ; favours license (37390) ; less drunk- enness (37414-6) : liquor trade bad for community (37444-54) ; permit system not pi'ohibitive ; rioting and disorderly conduct ; licjuor sold in more places than under license (37417-23, 37398-400); permits loosely given (37463-70) ; smuggling carried on (37400-8) ; compounds sold (37401-2) ; opposed to pro- hibition ; could not enforce it (37409-12, 37485-90); limitations under license do not interfere with liberty of subject (37424-33, 37454-9) ; favours com- pensation (37413.) LUCAS, ALEXANDER, of Calgary, Financial and lieal Estate Agent. . .Page 363 Mayor of Calgary, resident in Calgary since 1886 (37052-()0) ; Scott Act in 1880, in force in Lambton ; sub.sequently repealed (37001-0) ; prohibition in North- west from 1886-88 unsatisfactory ; liquor obtainable (37007-75, 37087) ; after 1888 till license, saloons ran openly (37076-80); Mounted Police did their duty (37101-5,37135); smuggling largely carried on (37145-7); permits handed round (37170-3) ; more drunkenness under license (37082-4, 37100-18, 37140-2) ; license law satisfactory, bars should be uncurtained during prohibited hours (37090-3) ; more liquor places before than under license (37099-100) ; pro.secu- tiona under license law (37122-3); prohibition no good, permits issued too freely, .smuggling went on, stubs of exhausted permits used, liquor sold under permit (37125-33, 37138-9, 37143-4, 37148-55, 37163-9) ; Dominion prohibition might be enforced (37097-8) ; but doubtful (37134-6) ; prohibition not popular (37156-7.; 686 f li i Index and Alully^sis of Evidence. MARSH, (iKOUGK, ..f Cd^arv, Reiil Kstatc Ajjoiit . Pu^'o 404 Ki'sideut siiu'o 188.'$: niihviiy aj^cnt foi- Caiiiuliiiii Piicitic Uiiilway from Wnlsclfv to Calj^iuy, noU miles; came from the L'nitctl Statt's (.'ir'.U.'l^) ; prot'iTs li<'t'Mse to |n'rmit (.'I'D'JO-'J) : (li'iiikiii<,r ul>out saiiin iiiistrictions on tratlie hut hi;,di license : advocates •' j^old cure for habitual inebriates as part of system (.'$7'J."i--.'5, .■i7H-'i.")-7) ; would imprison licensees sellinj; to minors (.'{7!'-")l, .■$7il6l ) : li(|Uor obtainable day and ni;;lit under license (.■$7!M)2-8) ; police vii^ilant ; some xcnal, bribery active, attempt at prohibition farcical (;57!)7t')-7, .■17i)'.t2, .'1801-) ; pi'ohibition breeds criminals (.•i80i:M). NOLAN, PATlirCK J., Jh., of Calvary, iJarristor Pa,i,'e -lOM Hosident in Territoiies three years (."JSOlo) : prefers license to permit; decrease in crime and drinking under licensi^ (;{8017-l.'0, .'^SO-').'!) ; illicit selling under ])ernnt, licenses foi' t(;mperance drinks used foi' li(]Uor trallic, blackmailing ciiri'ied on (.■$8020-"), 380-J!l--b"), :$80H)-r).')) ; would compensate foi' plant ( .'iSOL'!)) : wholesale and retail [)laces should ha\e some degi'ee of I'estrictioii (;$8027-8). ROLTLEAU, Ho\. CHARLES 15., of Calgary, Justice of the Supreine Court of the North-west Territories " Page ilHii Came to Calgary in 188") ; in Territories nine years (.■$74!)l-.'5) ; licenst! works tolerably well (371il5) : system preferable ; regulates and restricts ti'allic (;$7o.")l) ; saloon licenses under ]ierniit only allowed temperance 01-t). 37")-'l-2, 37.")2'J-32, 37.~)oG-7); Mounted Police honestly tried to enforce prohibition (37514-9): permit system class pi-ohibition (.375.")3-.")) ; advocates " gold cure " for persistent inebriates (37.")12-3, 37-")o8-9) ; violated law has evil eH'ects : prohibitor}' law unjiopular (37520); prohibition gf>od : cannot be enforced; those in trade should receive compensation (.37523) ; would encourage use of light wines (37525-6, .37501-5, 375()7-8) ; prohibition failed in X'ermoiit (37528) ; serious crimes not attributable to licpior (37567()-704, 377<)8-70). Prohibition oi- license not question at election (.37705-15, 3775()-t'>4, .i77ilG-805). Favours partial compensation (37716-8). Drunkenness increased under license (3771i'-31.) License law enforced ; difficulty of proving violations (.3773.3-40). -Mounted Police and prohibitory law, otticers drank ; liipior cir- culated under permit (37744-9). Prohibition in Pasadena, nm. IJiverside successful (37771-95). WALKER, JAMES, of Calgary, Lumber Merchant Page 373 Chairman of License Commissioners, re.sident in Calgary twelve years ; !\[ounted Policeman in 1872 (37281-6, 37314-20). Mounted Police duties with Indians in early days ; Hudson Bay Company sold to Indians or anybody ; not much smuggling (37287-311). More liijuor used now (37333-4). Four per cent beer made permit dead letter : all sorts of liquor sold (37331-2). Prohibition enforced would be good, illicit sale chief ditHculty (37335-8). 687 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 WILLIAMS, MIMON, of Cileielu-n, Fiihikt ¥,x^o 400 Uosident in Territories ten years; nt-arcst iifijjlilMiur siiuiyj^ier bcioif license; ititormatii)nliii(l, no conviction ; 4 per cent Immt ditl not affect liini ('Mfi*\\-'J04). Scntiincnt of community, proliil)ition ; could be enforced (37'J(J.J-U). Favours compt-nsation (."$7907). FORT MACLEOD, 9th of NOVEMBER, 1892. ALLEN, WILLIA.M C«>X, M.D., of Fort Macleod, Collector of Customsand of Inland Kevenue l'ay;c 411 Resident six years (38056). Li(|uor passed under license (.'l80.">8-r>2). Kxtcnsive snnifijjtlin",' under permit (.'JSOfi.'J-H, 3807H-80). Mounted Police t'liitlifil'v vigilant (38069-70, 38081). Prohibition impracticable (38071, 3,S080-6) ; desirable if practicable (.3808")) ; license preferable to permit (.3807.-4) ; per- mit system no prohibition (38082-3) ; anti compensation (3f<07-'5). EVAX8, R015KRT, of Fort Macleod, Veterinary Surgeon Page 415. Revenue inspector, resident three years (38L38-40); prefers license to {>eiinit (38144, 381")6) ; present law violated (38167-70) : DiHlculties under permit; people indifferent, witnesses would tell nothing ; snuiggling cai'ried on (3814r)-.")0, 38l.'3y-63) ; saloons before license (38171-77); prohibition imprac- ticable (.38ir)2-4, 381.^8) ; favours compensation ('i8 1. ").")) ; prohil)itiim if piac- ticable desirable (381.')7) ; Scott Act in Sinicoe and Dufl'erin (38164) ; license satisfactory in lioulton, Ont. (38165-6). GAVIN, Rev. HAMILTON, of Fort iMacleod Page 4SO Presbyterian minister, resident one year (38247-50) ; liciuor openly sold before license (38251-8 ; 38267) ; Scott Act beneiicial in Colchester, well enforced (3825i)-(')l ; 38268-69) ; favours prohibition, licensing wrong, againstc()mpensation(382()2-4). HILTON, Rev. DONALD, of Fort Macleod, Clerk in Holy Onlers Page 413 Church of England, resident fourteen years (38089-91) ; prefers license to permit (38092); immigrants not opposed to prohibition (38095-8) ; favours prohibi- tion if i)racticable (38099-38100, 38106-7, 38115-6); illicit importation and open sale under permit (38093, 38102-5); «!vil effects of liipioi' (38108-13) ; moderate, introductory to excessive, drinking (38114); danger of liquor to Indians (38117-9). HOLLIES, .lOHN, of Fort Macleod, Hotel-keeper Page 422 Resident in Ontario seventeen years, at Macleod four years (38270-2) ; prohibition in force, li(|Uor obtained from traders ; smuggling increased with white population ; open sale before license (38270-307); police endeavoured to perform duties, lacked popular support ; law considered unjust : diHlcult country to guard (38309-29) ; probil)ition impracticable (38308, 38371 2) ; not an election issue (38330-3) ; trade under license ; less drinking : law observed (38334-68) ; excessive drinking unchecked by law (38369-70) ; license popular (38375-9) ; hotels depend on liquor for profit (38393-406). KENNEDY, GEORGE ALLAN, M.D., of Fort Macleod Page 41» Resident fourteen years, fonnerly surgeon to police at different posts (38226-8) ; prefers license to permit (38230) ; permit never propei'ly enforced ; occasional hardships ; liquor for medicine frequently unobtainable ; smuggling (38231-7 ; 38242-6); more drunkenness under license (3,s238-39); fewer engaged in traffic (38240-1) ; favours compensation (38243-4). 688 A. 1894 ■ P'lKo 400 li'iovo liceiisp ; n(.t7H<;t-!»04). '■•)). Kiivours uhI of ftiland •■•l'a«''4ll ). Kxtcrisivo lifi- t'.iitlifiJ'v .'{.S0,S(j-6) ; 1SU7l'-1); per- Pa-t" 415. •s(> t(i poiniit iiider poniiit ; fiifrifd OH •itioii iiiiprjie- )ilioii if prac- IGJ) ; licfii&i- • ' ' Index and Analynis of Evidence. MacLeod, Hov. JAMES FAHQUHAHSON.of Fort Miicleod, .Justice of Suprf-mn Court of Nortii-wost T(!rritorieH P'W 4111 Uf!si(iont sinco 1S74 ; in I'omiiiiiiKl of Mouiitctl Police at Cyjircss Hills from lH7ti- IHS!). ( )ii hciicii ti\i yiMirM ; as Assistant Ooniinissioii(>r tirst otlii-or with force (■■{H)7H 38lM(i) ; jiolicc churned with cnforciii;^ prohihition ; ha(^ years (.'58829-32) ; permit system injurious, smuggling rife, compounds used (3SM43-G, 38831-2) ; license system worse than in Ontario (j884 1-2) ; prohibitionist, opposed to license principle (38836-40, 38847-49). BRETT, ROBERT GEOlKiE, M.D., of lianff. Page 451 Member of Legislative Assembly for Banff, resident since 1884 ; Chic^f surgeon of C.P.R. during construction (38887-94) ; smug;,'itig under permit ; Mounted Police endeavoured to suppress it (38893-908, 389();5-4, 39014) ; peiiiiit placed recon)mendiiig repi'esentatives in wrong position (38914-5, 389'il-3) ; permit unpopular (38932-3); license preferable to permit (38909,38960-81); less drinking under license (38981-2) ; law popular, capable of enforcement (38910- 13, 38916-7, 38974-7); capable of amendment (3890")); sales under permits (38944-6, 39010-13) ; fees for permits went to Terrritorial Revenue (38947-9) ; permit or license not an election issue (38949-53, 38978-90, 38995-39009) ; governor acted on popular feeling (38954-9) : favours national prohibition (38918-31) ; would require large majority to be practicable (389.'53-8) ; favours compensation (38939-40) ; sanitarium special license (38988-93) ; Rocky Moun- tain Park requires special legislation (39015-24). 689 21—44** 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 CONNORS, THOMAS, of BanfiF, Wholesale Liquor Merchant Page 444 Resident six years (38714-7) ; license preferaUe to permit (38718-9); sniugf^ling and illicit trade under permit (38720-6, 38736-48, ;i8763-9, 38773-7, 38825-7); compounds used (38778-92) ; police did their duty (38773); four per cent beer covered evorytiiing (38793-6) ; sales under poimits for meflicinal purposes, stul)s use-" ;38798-808) ; prohibition impracticable (38734-5, 38797) ; opposed to principle (38819) ; people would have liquor (38767-70); license law ob- served (38750-66, 3 obtain licenses, mode of jjroccdure, restrictions, billiard licenses (39108-22, 39171-5); Chinese weaknesses, opium and gambling (39132-5); old and new license laws compared (39143-57, 39176) ; law observed (39160-1); jjrohibition difficult to enforce (39177-181). Index and Analysis of Evidence. * ""■ BEGBIE, SIR MATTHEW BATLLIE, of Victoria Pago 4«4 Chief Justice of Supreme Court of British Columbia, twenty years, previously Judge on Mainland (3000912); pestered with whisky in North-west in ISH'), under prohibition whi>^kv bad but plentiful ; Mounted Poliie had it ; Indians must be prohibited (;}90i-t-27, 39()54-72, 39723-")) ; prohibition impracticable tlieie (39631) ; liquor in Alaska (39G27-30) ; infringed laws injurious (391)3 1, 39t;(;0); Population in Constantinople and .Stamboul uiuIim' religious [)r(jiiibition, dangerous t.nd criminal at night (39()3G, aho iM'i-, pai/r •")02, 3!l(lS(i-y) ; l.ritish Columbia law-abidijig (39G3G) ; favours compensation (39G37-9) ; drinking less than formerly, still excessive in some cases (39Gl.")-")3) ; men who drink superior, intellectually, morally, physically (39G90-1, 3972G-33, n/m ':'ftrr pago 502) ; restriction on trartic wise (39695-707) ; license regulates tratlic (3971-1- 21) ; anti prohibition (39710-1, 39722). BELYEA, ARTHUR L., of Victoria, Barrister-at-Law Page 543 Resident four years, formerly of Fredericton, N.B. (40515-8) ; formei'ly P )lice Magistrate (405G2) ; Inspector for County of York under McCarthy Act, clashes with Scott Act, latter not enforced ; public sentimtnt weak, law violated ; litigation blameable (40549-GO) ; license enforced fairly, few vio- lations, law harmonizes with public opinion (405(')1-GC) ; prohibition ptefcM-able, impracticable, owing to present condition of public sentiment (405G7-81). CAMPLELL, Rkv. JOHN, of Victoria Page 5.17 Presbyterian Minister, resident live months, formerly of CoUingwood, Simcoe County, Ontario (40458-GO) ; anti liquor traffic ; licensing wrong ; injures com- munity ; partaking of li(iuor wrong (40407-7' 40514-17); prnhibiliunist sys- tem practicable ; fa voui'able sentiment growing : anti compensation (40472-5, 40482-3, 40503-10, 40518-21) ; Scott Act in Simcoe andWdlington disap- pointing in operation (4047G-81, 40511-13); better on return of license (40490) ; license preferable to untrannnelled traffic (40497-8) ; prohibitary law requires support of public sentiment (404i'8-502). CHOQUETTE, ALEXANDER, of Fort Wrang-H Alaska, U.S. A Page 53» Trader, resident in ¥ort Wrangell .f;\-e years, foi'meily of I'ritish Columbia and California (40224-9) ; prohiijiiion in Alaska dead letter, liquoi' openly sold, given to Indians ; United State.' marshal's efforts to suppress traffic ; Indians distill liquor, smuggling (40230 98). COOMBES, Rkv. J. E., of Victoria Page 547 Baptist Minister in British Columbia two weeks ; from Tacoma, Washington Ter- ritory (40G3G-39) ; local option at Upper Alton, III., lighting " same old devil over and over again;'' one town can "jug" a county: "bunches" re\'einie, not expense (40G42-4) ; license in Washingtm State on side of liquor men, give.s monopoly to (U'l)aueh people (40l')4G-51) ; ])!•(. hibition desirable; practi- cable ; succes.sful in INlaine and Kansas ; though \ iolations occur (4UG55-73, 40678-93) ; anti compensation (40674-77). DAVIES, JOSHTA, of Victoria, Auctioneer and Conniiission IMeri'h.mt. . .Page -^jOO Resident since 1860, came fi'om California (.398G0-1 ) ; license fairly .satisfactoiy, advocates open sale, and high license, and inspection (.■i9S77, 39886-912) ; opposed to prohibition on principle, inqiractica-blc, would induce snmggling, expensive to enforce (39881-5, 39914-20). DELLSMITH, C, of Victoria, Journalist Page 55 > Resident two years, connected with r.'(»^(*»i','!/' (4069 1-5) ; Sunday c'osing itiduces drinking, creates sneaks ; failui-e in Toronto; night trade (10702-5); fivours license; law prohibiting sale to druidcards violated (li)70G-ll;; prohibition wouhl be impracticable ; would promote snmggling : anti comiiensation (40712-6, 40720-6). 691 67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 DOWLER, WELLINGTON J., of Victoria, Clerk of the Municipal Council Page 470 Resident twelve years, Clerk of Police Court (39182-5, 39207) ; clerk of licensing court (39187) ; sales to Indians, witrRsses' wretched memories ; Chinese law breakers, drunkards numerous (39189-95); advocates asylums for habitual inebriates (39196-7, 39218); prohibition difficult to enforce, would be in- jurious (39200, 39225-8); more drunkenness than Toronto (39201-2) ; sailor offenders (39203-5) ; large proportion of charges due to liquor (39208-17) ; drunkenness and population increasing (39219-22). HALL, ERNEST, M.D., of Victoria Page 506 Resident two years, (39792-3) ; Scott Act in Halton lessened drinking, beneficial, repealed (39797-801, 39815-9) ; prohibition desirable, practicable, economical; anti compensation (39802-8, 39830, 39850-8) ; license law not enforced, illicit sale, spasmodic efforts at enforcement, houses of ill-fame sell (39809- 1-1, 39845-9, 39854) ; abstainers best men, moderate drinking decidedly injurious (39820-6, 39831-44) ; danger of hereditary idiocy (30827-9). HALL, LEWIS, of Victoria, Dentist Page 544 Resident since 1886; Grand Secretary Independent Order of Good Templars; prohi- bitionist (40582, 40590, 40600) ; litjuor poison ; should be guarded as poison ; and license (40580, 40591-3) ; Scott act successful inOakville, Halton County, Ontario, in 1889 (40594-6^ ; anti compensation (40598) ; strong prohibition sentiment in British Columbia (40599) ; money spent in liquor if spent in other direction beneficial ; crime, disorder and all unlawfulness arising from liquor ; and majorit}' of deaths (40602,40611); prohibition practicable with proper officers and provisions (40612-40635). HALL, ROBERT H., M.P.P., of Victoria, Page 480 Resident twenty years ; lived at Fort Simpson, Fort St. Thomas, Fort St. George, Vancouver, €and been in Alaska; manager for Hudson Bay Company ; Com- pany holds wholesale license (39478-94J ; no license, but li(iuor at Fort Simp- son, floatiiig population, fishermen and Indians, whites and Indians drink ; Company had license but withdrew it ; more drinking .after ; licjuor smuggled (39497-500, 39533-8) ; prohibition in Alaska complete failure ; drinking at Juneau and Sitka, snmggled liquor openly sold. Indians ma'mfacture liquor (39501-19, 39539-47, 39573-602) ; impracticable law weakens justice (39553-4); prohibition in British Columbia impracticable (.39520-1, .39558-62); favours compensation (39522) ; law observed in Victoria (39495-6, 39523-32). HOUGHTON, THOMAS, of Victoria, Dry Goods ^Merchant, Page .HO Resident sixteen years (40065-7) ; favours prohibition, opposed to license, but better than untr.'immelled sale ; favours compensation (40076-40093) ; temperance people pay best (40094-9). HUMBER, MORRIS, of Victoria, Builder and Contractor Page 485 Resident thirty years, member City Cf)uncil, Chairman Police Committee (3'.I394- 400); liquor and labcur, respectable drinkers, little drunkenness (39402-26, 39450-7); license law broken, illicit trading (39433-9); favours high license (39440-1, 39445-8, 39458-9) ; prohibition beneficial (39427-9, ;;9449) , favours compensation (39472-7); fre(juenters of low dives (39442-4). LANGLEY, JOHN M., of Victoria Page 534 Sergeant of Government Police for Province since 1889, born in Province (40365-8) ; police duties, enforce criminal and li(|uor laws, detective force (40369-78) ; license law works well, bona fide traveller causes trouble, convictions quashed, favours license system, illicit stills (40380-95, 40399 404); drinking amongst Indians; they make liquor (40405-8) ; anti prohibition impracticable (40396-8). 692 Index and Analysis of E]vidence. »»4 -8); '8); led, -St P-8). McCRAE, FARQUHAR, of Victoria, Police Magistrate Page 481 Resident fourteen months, magistrate six months, lianistor, came from New Zealand (39326-30) ; Ucense in New Zealand, distilleries suppressed, compensation given, beer drank, temperance growing, crinii' attributahle to liquor, tendency to restrict tratfic (39:331-2, 39352, .•i93o8-8(5, 39392-3) ; hears charges and summary trials (39333-5); drunkenness, cases ilue to drink, Indian inehi'iates (39342-51); opposes all night selling (39352-3) ; athocates inebi'iate asylums (39354-5); favours compensation (39387-91). McMillan, JAMES E., of victoria, High Sheriff of the County of Victoria Page 505 Sheriff eight years (39762) ; license law well observed (39767-72) : prohibition desir- able, practicable (39773-9, 39784-88) ; crime attributable tu liipior (39789-91). MOOK, NG., of Victoria Page 5:{(; Manager Chin Chong Company of merchants, resident about t'ighteen years, from Canton, China (40417-22) ; Chinese in Victoria hold wholesale licenses, sell Chinese wine made from rice, called cortin, sober people (40423-57). RICHARDS, Hon. ALBERT NORTON, Q.C., of Victoria, Harrister-at-Law. Page*>0» Barrister and Queen's Counsel of Ontai'io, resident from 1875 to 1881, returned 1884, formerly Police Magistrate (39735-7, 39748) ; Scott Act benetical in Brockville in 1881-2, afterwards repealed (39738-44) ; favours com[)ensation (39751-3) : prohibitior riglit in principal, opposes it as unfair to those who wish to drink (39754-61); crime C(mnnilted through li(pior (39755). SAUER, GREGORY CLEMENT, of Victoria Page 5I<» President of Licensed Victuallers' Assncijition, hotel-kccpei', resident ten yciii-s, from California, (40000-3) ; holds old license (4000^) ; licence law obsci\('d, favours inspection, use of light wines increasing (4000!t-15, 40021) ; aiiti i)rolii- bition, impracticable, favours compensation (10022-4, 40059-61 j; licensees associated for protection, and enforcing law (40032-58). SHAKESPEARE, NOAH, of Victoria Pag(; ,l»l Postmaster, resident since 1862 (40299-300) ; License Commissi(.ner (403;i8) ; license law works all right, licensing wrong, better than untrammelled sale, law not local option, illicit sale, perpetual licc-nses, favours ainiual application for license, Chinese brandy (40302-6, 40310-28, 40339-64): prohibitionist popular sentiment against prohibition, becoming more favourabli-, prohibition could be enforced, favours compensation (40307-8, 40329-37, 40360-2). SHEPHERD, HENRY WILLIAM, of Victoria, Superintendent of Citv Poliee Page -17*4 Resident thirty years, Superintendent four years, poliee ap])ointed by city authorities, their duties (39231-43) ; license; law well observe29-44). WTLSON, ALEXANDER, of Victoria, Merchant Resident thirty- three years (.39921-3) ; license fee formerly 8000 now $200 ; law not observed (39925-30) ; proliibitionist, license sin, anti compensation, prohibition could be enforced (39934-5S) ; less drinking now than formerly (39959-60) ; hotels worse than saloons (39901-3) ; prohibition feeling growing (39964-99) ; crim.e and drink (39980-3). NANAIMO, 21st of NOVEMBER, 1892. CAMPBELL, GEORGE, of Nanaimo Page 5TO Foreman Vancouv ■ Coal Coiniany since 1S75 (41133-4) ; high license, too many saloons; fewer saloons, less liqufii' (41143-0); prohibitiim wanted (41147-50, 41179-89) ; by men whodrink (4115S-62) : anti compensation (41 103-4, 41167- 9, 41190-3) ; drinking sinful (41170-78) ; miners and liquor, loss of time round pay day, fear of losing place lessens drinking (41151-7); money invested in breweries could be better employed (41105-0). DRAKE, SAMUEL, of Nanaimo, .Sherifi' Page 5*12 Sheriff eight years ; appointed by Pro\iniial Govei'iunent ; resident over fifty years (40727-31); license always in force; mixed and floating population; community orderly (407.32-38); license law works satisfactorily (407.39-41) ; Sunday closing beneficial and popular (40758-02) : anti prohibition ; pro- hibition would retjuire an army to enforce, cause snuiggling, prove impracti- cable (40742-50) ; favours compensation (40767-9) ; favours license but no monopoly (40777-8); crime scarce; drink and crime; sales to Indians (40779-88). GOFF, SA^IUEL, of Nanaimo Page 558 City clerk of Nanaimo twelve years, resident thirty-six years ; Secretary to Licens- ing Board (40844-9) ; constitution ami duties of LiL-eiising Hoard (40850-8) ; old and new licenses, law improved, Sunday drinking (40859-66, 40891-913, 40923-7) ; favours prohibition, license next best, preferable to free traffic ; prohibition as practicable as any other law ; in vours comi)ensation (40807-86) ; less drinking than formerly, temperance sentiment growing (40887-92, 40914); illicit selling (40915-22). HASLEM, ANDREW, Mayor of Nanaimo, Sawmill Owner Page 555 Resident eleven years ; in liritish Columbia seventeen years (40789-93); Chairman of Board of License Connnissioners (40803) ; connnunity sober and orderly, foreign element (40797-802) ; license law well observed, no illicit selling ; Sunday selling question;d)le ; wants bar-rooms closed ; city takes ii'^ense fees (4080.3-17, 40832-5, 40837-42) ; drinking decreasing (40836) ; favours prohibi- tion ; practicability (juestionabie ; danger of smuggling (40818-26, 40843); favours compensation (40827). 694 ' '. Index and Analysis of Evidence. McGregor, WILLIAM, of Nanaimo, Colliery Manager Page S06 Resident in Nanaimo twenty-six years; manager six years (41039-41); large employ(>rs of labour : Sunday closing beuiilieial (41042-r»0) ; prohibition desirable, enforcement ditlicult, })racticable witii etlicientotlicials ; public senti- ment favourable; compensation just (41051-Gl) ; would lessen number of licensed houses (410G2-5) ; company dismiss men who drink, habits improving, drinking round pay day ; allow no license places on their ground (41000-87). McRAE, Rev. D. A., of Nanaimo Page HHO Presbyterian Minister, in Province two years (41. '544-5); Chairman of the Central Temperance Committee (41.'?").'?) ; Sunday closing observed, bars should be closed (41.'5.")0-.">) ; city improving, temperance spreading (41358-<)0) ; wants prohjl '" 1, meantime regulation, smuggling would exist ; anti compensation (41300..)); favours limitation of hours (41376-83); Drunkards Act openly violated (41388-94) ; ciime and li|. Justice of Peace and Stipendiary Magistrate three years ; in Nanaimo seventetMi years ; in British Columbia, twenty years (40928-30) ; license law well observed ; few cases arise ; Sunday sales, bars should be closed ; illicit selling ; old licenses and now; c-.-ime .scarce (40937-59, 40978-84, 40990, 41007); more liijuor in i)rivate wouses (40900-1); ]>rohibition <> ;ieitsdling,Inchans\;otsupp Llby i:^^^^^^ carried out, no ii- favours inspection of Hquo,^ (4 7T4 52 4 ?78 sn ^^ "!'>' ^''" "'^•''"•^^'' = Pacific Railway construction under Public W ,t ^ i 77? S'^'p J-'" Can.uiian national prohibition would produce iliHt ;. ^^n-l^.'J"*-^'^' -^I'^'-S) ; pensation (41771). P'o""ee illicit sellluig (41;^' / Jl^^^ ''t'"" >^^?- .ununenforcible; favours compen.sation (41441-7 41floo n '• T*' l^'.'"''."'- ioss than formerly ; temperance 'sentiment gtowin^ (ll.'S^Sj. '^ ''■'''"'' VANCOUVER, 23rd NOVEMBER, 1892. ..RBOTT HARRY, of Vancouver General Superintendent of Pacific Division of CuridiV,." P.' V" ' 1. ■•', ' ' ^^^^ smce 1885 (42249-5->i' li..p„.„ , V- .^^' ' '^"'"'" ^^'^''way, resident loosely; Sundajii^^n e" rr4 "vfl-;^ -tt.sfactory ; licensed granted ^entiful (4226^7) ; ,.S^, ^V^J^Z^^t ^^' = """"'• ure travd 422S31- ^^S^] '"'K'"r"" i^.^'^'^f ' prohibition l.ndd in- have some nii-abstinencJ n;;i;'|42^^;4^4SJ?';«)''"'"^^ '^™'^' '''"^^^''^ ' 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894 COPE, KUAN K, ^fayor of Vanccuvnr Pn<,'c OIO Mei'cliant, n-sidoiit four yeans ( I IOl'.*?- t) ; License CoinnuHsionor ( 4 lU.iS !») ; lictMiso law satisfactory; insjioctioii carried (uit ; Sunday closiii;,' ()l)scrviMi ; Indians ;,'ivcn li(|U()r hy outsiders, not lic('nsfi's{4li»tO .")."i, H!)7.'5iS.'{) ; Scott and Dunkin Acts unsatisfactory in operation (I lOoC)-!)! ; 419C)4; 11984); anti prohiiution (4ii)()l'-72) ; favours compensation (41 US.')). DEVINE, JOHN, of Vancouver, Agent Page (M(f Collector in Province sevcin years; License Connnissioner (4J7 1 --7) ; liccMisc^ law enforced woulc] make fine city; not enforced ; li<|Uor sold in restaurants Sun- days and weekdays; fe.ars increase of licenses; liotel.s preferable! to saloons; favour.s regular hours for closing (4"_'71S-40, 42771-8")^, License Inspectors' duties not performed (42741-G) ; favours prohibition; impracticable at present; compensation dependent on circumstances (4'274'.l-.")7). HAMMERSLEY, ALFllED ST. (iEOROE, of Vancouver Page 654 Barrister and City Solicitor, resident four and a half years (42876-7) ; license laws in Australia and New Zealand much the same as here ; preferred to local option (42880-9.'?): Sunday law beneficial though violated (42894-G) ; suggests severe punishment for habitual drunkards (42897-9) ; prohibition inipi'actic- able, failed in New Zealand, produces smuggling ; favours compensation (42905-10) ; licenses in Australia and New Zealand lefjuire consent of com- munity ; annual application ; are granted hotels only ; cairy no vested right (42917-30). JACK, W. D. BRYDONK, M.D., of Vancouver Page G5» Resident thi-ee years (42838-40) ; license law satisfactory, though violated (4284.'5-7) ; favoui's prohibition, next license ; compens:ition or time (42848-.")2) ; Sunday di'inking, social evil and licjuor (428.")."i-r)) ; abstinence conduces to best health ; drinking hereditaiy ; enforced pi'ohii)ition would prove beneficial ; abstainers and insurance (42856-7). JORDAN, GEORG E A., of Vancouver Page 014 Police Magistrate, appointed by Provincial Government (42024-9); community law-abiding ; Chinese and linuor (42030-G) ; li(|Uor and ci'ime (42038-9 ; 42062-70) ; law well observed ; Sunday selling ; prosecutions ; no illicit sell- ing ; police enforce law ; insufiicient (42041-51 ; 42071-2) ; Scott Act failed in County of Victoria ; repealed (42052-7 ; 42073-4) ; pi-oliibition impracticable ; facilities for smuggling and illicit distilling; favoui's compensation (42058-()l ; 42075-96); law broken, disastrous ; fault of ofiicials (42097-103). McLEOD, MURDOCK (!., of Vancouver Page 621 License Inspector, Jailor, and Clerk of Police Court; resident four years ; official duties (42178-84 ; 42214-20) ; bars closed Sundays ; no illicit selling, unless in fancy houses (4218.5-95; 42211-3; 42221-39; 42246-8); Scott Act in Bruce, Ontario, failed () prohibit ; was repealed (42196-203); prohibition impractic- able in British Columbia on account of facilities for smuggling, and illicit distilling; favours compensation (42204-10); crime and liquor (42240-5). McGUIGAN, THOMAS F., of Vancouver Page 613 City Clerk; in Province eight years (41986-90) ; license 'aw works fairly ; strict Sunday closing (41994-5); prohibition impracticable (41996-9 ; 4201.3) ; licjuor under permit in Northwest Territories ; on Canadian Pacific Railway construction under prohibition; smuggling in every shape from all ((uarters (42000-12 ; 42015-21 ; favours compensation (42014) : too many licenses (42023). 698 Index and Analysis of Evidence. Mi.(JlJI(iAN, W. .1., M. I)., of Vancouvor I'.igo HUH MciiHcfil llt'iiltli Otlicer, Coroiior, imd AliliTiiifin ; t'oniiorly .siir;{eoii on (!. 1*. H.; in Proviiieesiiine IHH") (42o24-.'U) ; sinu;,'t;linj{ on C P. H. construction untltT PuV)lic Works Act despite police (\2^>S'2-4\) ; license satisfactory, Sunday law violated, all licensees offend ; li<|Uor men law breakers ; popular sentiment favours violation ; wants Sunday closing (4"J")42-71, 4"200.'5-14) ; deaths from li(luor (42572-7) ; al)stin a nuisance, license introduced and enffirced (42794-805) ; license laws and drinking in (Jhina, India, Turkey and Mediterranean ports (42800-10) ; anti prohibition ; means illicit distilling or smuggling ; favours compensation (42817-19, 42833-7) ; grog rations optional in navy ; abstinence in navy (42824-32). MILLAR, JOSEPH E., of Vancouver Page H2H Collector of Inland Revenue, in Province tlir(!e years ; his duties (42317-24) ; beer trade increasing, statistics (42325-34 ; 42300-0) ; license law works well ; favours high license, and fewer licenses, with no saloons (423.35-41 ; 12307-81) ; prohibition impracticable, would induce smuggling (42343, 42382-5) ; illicit manufacture small (42344-6) ; favours compensation (42349-59). Recalled Page OIS Presents statistics of liquor from bond at Donald (42632-40). ODLUM, EDWARD, of Vancouver, Fire Insurance agent Page unkin Act conflict in Renfrew, Ontario ; Scott Act induced diinking ; licjuor brought in fron; '.Que- bec ; repealed (42045-54) ; license law works satisfactorily (42055-0) ; favours prohibition if practicable, at present impracticable ; retpiires large majority ; licen.-e preferable to untrammelled traffic, favours compensation (42050-1)5) ; license in Australia, more drinking there (42660-09) ; drinking in Japan (42670-1) ; liijuor stores and dwellings adjoining charged highei' rates of in- surance (42777-9). PRESTON, ISAAC, of Vancouver Page 6»4 Retired farmer, in Province three years (42434-8). Scott Act unsatisfactory in Dur- ham County, Inspector did not work, magisti'ates declined to act, people dis- gusted with non-enforced law ; was repealed ; Duiikin Act al.so failure (42439-54, 42460-2, 42495-7, 42502-10). Intimidation during Scott Act (42470-6). Total prohibition popular and practicable, shown by Scott Act votes (42455-9, 42463-9, 42477-90, 4251 1-23). Anti compensation, would relieve small men (42491-4). Liquor sold on Sundays (42498). Scott Act pi'eferable to license in Ontario (42500-1). Growth of temperance sentiment, difficulties of prohibition (42503-6). 699 r 57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No, 21.) A. 1894 HOBH( )N, CHARLES Wl LLT AM, of Vancouver T'lf,'"^ «•« Minm«<'rfor Hudson Hay Conipanv, liienscf, in Vaiuouver tlnoc years ; in Province e?L'ht years (4-'()H0-!»()). License law satisfactory ( llM',')! ;!) ; well (.hservec 1 (■t-2703-(>) ; iiroliil)iti(jn iinpracticalile ; sniu,<,'f,'linj,' would ensue (P_t).».) (>) ; Ka'vours compensation (42701) ; Canadian litjuors inspected ; imported li(iuors not inspected (42697-700 ; 42707-1 1). Page 031 resident five years ; (4-j;rs . . . Page 031 lit five years ;