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FOUR'
D
VOLUME X
SESSIONAL PAPERS
VOLUME 14
FOURTH SESSION OF THE SEVENTH PARLIAMENT
OF THK
DOMINION OF CANADA
SESSION 1894
VOLUME XXVII.
67-58 Victoria. Alphabetical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
icr See also Numerical List, page 4.
ALPHABETICAL INDEX
TO THE
SESSIONAL PAPERS
OK THK
PARLIAMENT OF CANADA
FOURTH SESSION, SEVENTH PARLIAMENT, 1894.
Note.— Ill order to find quickly whether a paiier has been ]irinte<) or not, the mark (n.p.) hoH liecn
inserted when not printed ; pa|ier» not so marked, it may 1)eunderHt<K>d, are printed. Kurtlier information
concerninf; each pai>er is to bo foimd in the List, commencing on page 4.
A
Aflulteration of Food 7ii
Agriculture, Annual Re|iort 8
Archives, Canadian 8«
Atlantic Steamship Line 84, 84rt, Mh
Auditor Cleneral, Annual Ke|>ort 1
Australia, Mission to. . 5a
Awards, Agricultural Iniplenu-nts at Chicago. 8f
B
liauks, Chartereil 3
Hanks, Unclaimed Balances in 3f(
Baptisms, Marri.-kges and Burials (n.p.) 105
B. C, Conmuitation of Sentence in (n.p.) t'tbU
Blue Books (n.p.) 3!)
Bonds and Securities (n.p.) 38
lionuH i)aid for Settlers (n.p.) 07
Boundary, Alaska and British Columbia. (n.p.) 8(i
Breweries and Distilleries 1 n.p.) 104
Bridge at St. Michel d' Yamaska (n. p. ) 34/(
British Canadian Loan & Investment Co.(n.p.) 20
British Columbia Penitentiary... .(n.j).) r>'.)i\ 5!W, ■'iitc
British Columbiv Railway Belt (n.p.) 4.')
Building of Canadian Ships (n.p.) 74, 74'(
Bureau of Labnir Statistics (n.p.) <(H
Butter (».]>.) ti'.t
Butter and Cheese 8A
C
Campbell, Samuel (n.p.) 33f<
Canadian Cattle, Schediding of M
Canadian Pacific Railway :
Payments to d'-l'-) 28
Lands sold by (n.p.) 34
Business with Interior Department. . .(n.p.) 34n
Schedule of Rates 34c
Western Division (n.p.) 34rf
Canadian Ships (n.p.) 74, 7l<i
Canadian Toliacco (n.p. 106
1
C
Canal Tolls (n.p.) 8,")
Cattle Inspection !I0
Cattle Ranche, CJovernment (n.p.) <K>
Certified Captains or Mates (n.p.) SH
Chambly Canal (n.p.) 24, run
Chartered Banks 3
Chevalier, I. B (n.p.) 33«
Chicago Awards Se
Chicjigo E.xiKwition, Pri/.es at 101
Civil Serviiw Boarfl of E.\aminers ICA
Civil Service Insurance (n.p.) ."il
Civil Service List . . Ifm
Civil Service .Sujierannuations (n.p.) 2;-|, iJd
Cockburn Island Wharf (n.p.) 7i">c
Coffin, Charles (n.p.) (IS
Colonial Coiifertince ,V<
Columbian Exposition, Nova Scotia Employees
at (n.p.) .">5
Columbian ExjKwition, Rejiort cm 8<;
Couniiission on Liipior Traffic 21
Commissions to Public Officers 31
Commutation of Senu-nce in B. C (n.p.) i't'xl
Connolly and McCJreevy. . (n.p.) 37
Contractors' Securities (n. p. ) S7
Copyright Laws 50
Cornwall Canal (n.p.) 77fc, 77c
Criminal Statistics 8/
Customs Affairs at Woodstock (n.p.) 112
D
Dairy Conimii^sioner Hh
Davis, W. H., k Sons (n.p.) 77'<, 77c
Departmental Re|Kirts (n.p.) 3^
Dividends Unpaid in Banks *(
Dominion Lands (n. p. ) 3."), Xia
Dominion Police Re|K)rt (n.p.) 22
Dominion Savings Banks (n.p.) 71
57-68 Victoria. Alpliabetical Index to Seesional Papers.
A. 1894
R
Elffin Vdterit' Lint (n.p. )
Kllih, .Toliii V (n.p.)
KMti:iiat<-H
ExcIkmuht Court RuleM. . — (n.|i.)
Kxi'iMc
KxiK'iiHCH, I'lifiiifHci'n (n.p.)
Ex|>erimfntal Knrnm, Anniinl R»"i>i>rt Ho
m
4»
2
32
7
2tt
Kiutt StttainKliip Lhu- 84, 84fl, Mh
FiHh(!iii-H ill Onturiii (n.l>.) 33/
FiHliing HoiintifN . (n.p.) XVi
KJHliinK LiccniwM (n.p.) M
FliiK .Station, Rj-nioval of (n.p.) Hit
Food, Adultfnition of 7"
Fn-nuli Treaty M, 6«n
GalopM R'lpidn OiannHl (n.p.) 60
(icologiciil Siiivcy Ri'lmrt 13<»
(toHW-lin, .Miclifl (n.p.) 41
(iov»mior (i«"n«'rar» Warrants (n.p.) 27
Grand Ktang (n.p.) 7I»
Hiirrix IVoix-rty (n. p. )
Hfrring FiNliini; (n.p.)
HouK'KteiidH in Munitolw (n.p.)
Howlun Rond (n.p.)
Hudnon Hay, Kxplorationi* to (n.p.)
HimniM of Ixji'ette (n.p.)
Ininiigi-ation Ri-tuni-nien (n.p. ) 03
ImiK(rt.s, Various (n.p.) 81, 81«, 8V,, S\r
Indian Atfairn, .Vnnuul Report 14
Inland Reviinie, Annual Rf|M)rt 7
Insurance, Annual Ri'iMirt 4
InHurance Comimnies 4a, V)
Intcrc'olonial Railway Freight RateH. (n.p.) 34*/, 44
Interior, Annual Re|ioit 13
.lames Bay, Kxplonitions to (n.p.) 3<5
Johnstone, .fudge (n. p. ) 58
•Tunior .Judges, Ontario (n.p.) 83
.f ustiee. Annual Report 18
.Justice Palmer (n.p.) 2i»
K
Kingston Penitentiary, (n.p.) 59<i, tAVi, 5i)f, 5'Ml, 59r
Lac(juture, .Joseph (n.p.) 24
I^nds allotted to Half-breeds (n.p) id
Lands, Dominion ... .(n.p.) 35, 35>i, 54
Library of Parliament, Annual Report 17
Licenses to U. .S. Fishing Vessels (n.p.) 33
Liquors, Distilled and Fermented (n.p.) 103
Liquor TrafKc, Royal Commission 21
Ms
Loans for .Suetl-grain (n.p ) 102
Loli«t»'r Fishing (n.p.) .^V
Luther, Sale of Lot in (n.p.) 72, 72((
M
Manitoba, Homesteads in (n.p.) 70
Manitoba ScIiikiIm 40,1, 4<V
ManitolMt Hehcml Iaiwh Mi<l
Marine and Fisheries, Annual Re|iort 11
Militia and Defence, Annual Re|M)rt lit
Militia, Kstablishnient Lists 1!»«
Mill River (n.p.) 89
Mining Machinery (n.p.) 47
MiscelIan<.ouH UnforestH-n Kx|H.nses. . . (n.p.) 2(>
Mission to Australia 5<(
Montl>etit, .1 ulien (n.p.) .'«Vi
Montreal Tinilier I )ues (n. p. ) 7".i«
Mounted I'olice, Animal Ku|)ort 15
Me
Mefireevy and Connolly (n.p.) 37
McI..eofl, .lohn (n.p.) m
Mcijueen, Timothy (n.p.) 'iSI>
SI
North-west Mounted Police 15
North-west .School Tea<-hers (n.p.) 40
O
Ontario Fisheries (n.p.) ;<3/
Ontario .Jiuiior .Judges (n.p.) S3
Ottawa, Colonial Confen-nce at .V,
P
PalniiT, .Justice (n.p.) 2(t
Prince Kdward Island Railway (n.p. ) 23
Prince Kdward Island .SchiNil Law 40/.
Penitentiaries, Deaths in (n.p.) .00
Pickets Pier (n.p.) 7«
Pig Irtm 40
Postmaster (Jeiieral, Annual Reimrt 12
Post Office Havings Hanks (n.p.) 71
1'rizes at Chicago Kx)K)Hitiou 101
Provencher, Rivers in (n.p.) 62
Public Accounts, Annual Re|H>rt 2
Ptiblic^ ( ttticers' Commissions 31
Public Printing and Stationery ICk-
Public Works, Annu.kl Re|H)rt
Public Works, Exp<-nditures on (n.p.) 7')il
(Quebec Timber Dues (n. p. ) 70
Railways and Canals, Aiiiiiial Re|iort 10
Recei])ts and Ex|ienditures (n.p.) 52, 52a
Recipnicity with United Stab's (n.p. ) 85
Return-men, Immigration (n.p.) 93
Revising Officers (n.p.) 43
Rocheluau, .Joseph Placide (n.ji.) 82
Royal Cuniniission on Liquor Trattic 21
I
>J
i.
I
Vf#
57-58 Victoria. Alphalietical Index to Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
Hoyal Military CoIIpki' 48 4H>(
RiiIhh, Kxch<-qtit>r Court (ii.p.) 32
KuAtico Hreak water (ii. p. ) T.V
SulNiiiriii, Tli)''<)pliil<> _ ...(ii.p.) a3n
•Sule of Lot in Luther (n, p. ) 72, 7'2<i
Samlfnrd Breakwater (n.p.) 7iV»
S,iu(fee.. Imlians (11. [>. Mi.V,, (i.V
*'"■'"»"' (n.p.) !W
.Sche<liililitf of r'liiiadiaii Cattle gj\
HchiHilTeacherH in North-west (n.p.) 40
Secn-tary of .State, Annual Ke|Hjrt KJ
.Securities for 1 mtractH (n.p.) 8"
Se«Kl-Kruin, LoaiiM for (n.p.) 102
.Seigniory of Hillery („.p ) -^
.SuttlerH, BonuK paid for. (n.p.) ti?
Sheik-H iHlan.l Dun. (n.p.) 77'', 77d
Six .Nation Imliann (n.j..) fiS, (W,,'
Siirel IJ4>ar(l of Triwle (n.p.) 84fc
HoulauKeM Canal (n.p.) 57, 57/., .57r, 57,f'
•St. Andrew's Hupidn (n.p.) <K» i
Steanilxuit lnK|ir.(^tion j|„
Steamer " Stanley " („.p. , ,^ ,,4,,
S»i-H,n»liip .Service m, H4,/, K4fc
SuiH-rannuatiouH, Civil Service (n.p.)L'.'>, 'iiVi
Swine, SlaughterinK of (n.i>.) 100
T
Tariff ChanKen (n.p.) 42
TlKumand Ixlandi* m
Tinilier Dues, Montreal (n.p.)
Timber Dues, (^uebj-c (n.p.)
Tinilier LicenHCH (n i» )
Timber Sold („ p )
Toliacco, Canadian („,„_ \
Trade and Commerce, Annual Re|iort
Tra<)e ami Navigation, .\nnnal Reiiort
Tradi^ UnionH (n.p.)
Trent Valley Canal („,,')
Tuiuml lietWHiui P. K. I. and Mainland
70f(
70
7»«
79fc
106
5
<l
0."i
V
Unforeseen E.x|>en8eg (n.p.)
I'nited States, Cattle from
V
Vankoiifflinet, L .(n.p.)
VoteiH' Li.^t, KIgin '^n[^i.)
Wrtrrants, C.overnor (Jeneral'H. ,
Weights, .M. asures and Gas. . . .
Went Hay, N..S
Whyeocomag'i, N'.S
; w.hmI, a. K
Wood Island I'.reakwater
W<«xlHtofk, Ciiitoms Affairs at. ,
World's Kx|M)Ni:ion, Ke|iort on..
Wrecking and Towing
V
Vamaska River Dam
(n.p.)
.(n.p.)
.'n.p.)
.(n.p.)
(n.p.)
.(n.p.)
(n.p.)
26
'.Mi
.■).S
80
27
7'.
97n
97
73
75/,
02
*/
N3
• ("•!>•) 77, 77a
IJ
67-68 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
See also Alphabetical Index, pasre 1.
LIST OF SESSIONAL PAPEKS
Arrninijed in Numerical Order, with their Titles at full length ; the Dates when
Ordered aud when Presented to both Houses of Parliament ; the Name of
the Member who moved for each Sessional Paper, and whether it is ordered
to be Printed or not Printed.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME B.
C«-nHUH of Canada, 18iH) id. Hwiuicl V<iluiiic Printul for Imlh di»trih<itiim unil udmiuiinl piipiri,
CONTENTS OF VOLUME C.
Cen8U8 of Canada, 18JH> 91. Third Volunu^ Printnl for Imth (tistriliulion uml si mioniil puixm.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 1.
1. Report of tin- Auditor Ocnrrid on Ainiropriiition AecoiintH, for tlic y<'«r cndi'd .Siltli .Tune, 18!tM. I*r»--
Hente<) 20th March, IH'M, l>y Hon. (i. E. V\)»tfT. I'rinliil fur hnih ilislriliitlinii mul luimioiuil pn/Kri.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 2.
» Public ApcomitH of Caniuhi, for tin- fiscal yi-»r cndt-d ,%tli June, 18!«. rnwcntod 20th Alnrch, lS!t4,
by Hon. (J. E. Foster. 2i(. Estimates for the fiscal year ending Slth .lune, IK'.t,") ; presented 2<(th
March, 18!I4. 2h. Supplementary estimates for the financial year ending lUttli ■lune, IN'.M ; pr«-
senteil 20th .June, 18!M. 2r. Supplementary Estinuttes for the year eudiiiK .'Wtii .lune, 18!!,");
presented 12th •July, J8iir> Printtil for loth ditlrihntion and tcmiioniil jtiipir».
S. Lists of Sliareluilders in the Chartered Banks of Canada, iis on .Slst UivemlH-r, 18!I3. Presented 20th
April, 181I4, by Hon. (J. ¥.. Foster J'rintid for lutth tlmtriliHtion anil msiiioiinl jxi/m rn.
8(1. |{e|iort of dividends reniainiuK un|>aid and unclaimed Imlunces in the chartered banks of Caniula, for
five years and upwards, prior to iJlst December, 1803. I'resented 11th .Tune, 1804, by Hon. I J. E.
Foster Printiii for hoth iliKtrihiitiun iiiid iHs.tioiial jmperi.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 3.
4. Repi)rt of the Sui^^intendent of Insurance for the year endinti; 31st Deeemlier, 1803.
Printtd for lioth dietrihiilion and mmioiifd pa/iem.
4fj. Preliminary abstract of the business of Canadian life insurance comiHinies for the year ending ,Slst
December, 1803. Presented 20th March, 1804. by Hon. (J. E. Foster.
Printed for Intth dhtrihidioii and »e»»ionid piipert.
4fc. Abstract of statements of Insurance Comiunies in Canada for the year ending Slst l)eceml)er, 1803.
Presented 7th May, 1804, by riir John Thompson Printtd for both distribution ntul ist»»ioiud pajiert.
4
67-58 Victoria.
List of Seasional Papora.
A. 1894
CONTEJITS OF VOLUME 4.
S. K<-|Kirt iif the |)c|«rtnieiit of Tra<le and Comtiiercx, for the ynar «iulf<l :iOth Jiiiip, \K'Xi. I'nwntt'd
ITlli May, 1H1M, liy Sir tlohn TIkhiiiumiii Printnl hr Imlh liittriliulion iinil mmiioiiiil iHipi m.
Hii. Kf|Hirt of till* Miimion tu AuHtritliik, liy the MiniHtHr of Trn<lt< ui»l ('oniim-rce. I'rtiHcntHil 4th <liily,
IH1I4, tiy Hir .lohn Thoiiiiiwni Printiii for Imlh ihtlrilnitinn mid uttiimul piip> r».
ill. The Colonial Coiift-roiice, held nt Ottawa, 1H)I4 1'rinttil /■irludh ilintrihulion and trttUtmil itajicrt.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 6.
0. Tulili'H of tlif Trado and NHvi|;ittion of C'nnndu for tlic ti«cttl yi-iir undtil '■M\t\\ .liinc, 18!I3. I'ri'HPiitfd
■J7th Mikri-h, IH'.M, l>y lion. N. C. \ViiUa»-f I'rintnl fur Imth ilittnliulion uml »t iminnul /Hiprrt.
7. Inland Ki-vt'iiui'K of Canada. I'art I., Kxciw, etc., for tin- tinoal year ended 3<»th .Iiine, 1S!»3. Pre-
Heiittil '2>nU March, IM'.M, liy Hon. .1. F. WikmI. . . I'riiitnt fur Ixith dinlrihutiitn ond mimiinuil /i<»yjcr».
7n. Inland Kevenutu of (;aini<la. I'art II., Adults-ration of Food, W.K\. Tr'-Hented 1 Itli .liuie, 1S84, liy
Hon. .1 . F. Wood Printril for Mh diitriliuthm and neimtomil papem.
9l., Iidand Kcvi-niieK of Canada. Part III., hiHiiectinn of Wei^htH vid MeaMnrex and (ihk. Prem-nted
(itii -Inly, 1«!M, by Hon. .1. F. WikmI . . .I'riulid fur Irnth dittrihution mid mnnioiud pupcm.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 6.
N. l<c|Mirt of the Minixter of Afrrienlture for Canada for the calendar year 181)3. Presented P2th .Iiine,
IH'.M, liy ,Sir .lohn Thonipwin I'rintrd for Imth dmlrilmtiioi mill nmniiiiiiil juipi m.
fill. KelHirt on Caniulian Archive«, 1S!»3. Piesented VM\ .luni', 1H!(4, hy .Sir .lohn Thonipsoii.
Priiitid for Imth iliHtriltntiitn mid mn^iimiil pupi'rn,
mil. Third Aniniid Kei">rt of the Dairy Coniniisitioner of Canada for lH!f_> !»3. PreNcnted IHtli M:iy, 1H!I4,
hy Hon. T. M. I'aly I'riutid fur Imlli iHnlrihutiDn mid ftuniunnl pn/iir^.
Xf. i{e|Hirt of the Director and <,)tticer§ of the Kx|H'riinental Farms for the year 18il3. Presented 2i»th
A|iril, IM!(4, liy Hon. (i. K. Foster I'rintid for Imlh dintriliidiiiii it ml ninitiimiil jm/u m.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 7.
Hil. The Schediilinn of Cattle in Kngland— the Canadian Case. Presented 4tli May, 1«!M, hy Hon. T. M.
I hily I'riulid fur Imth diiitrdiKtiiiii mid .1 Hindnal /hi/h m.
Hi: ,S|Mt'ial Ki'|«irt of the Kxeeutive Coniniissioiier on Awards on AKricidtural Implements at Chicajfo,
1«!(3. Presented 7tli May. 1SH4. hy Hon. T. M. Daly.
I'rintid fur Imth ilintrihiitiDii mill lunniimiil impirf.
♦*/. Criminal .Statistics for the year IKI13 . . I'riiiird for Imth di.itriliiilinii mid ni.i.iiinin/ piipi m.
**ii. He|>ort of the Executive Commissioner on the World's Columliian Kx|s>sition.
I'riidid fur Imth dinlriliiitiitn mid Himiiiinid fipi rf.
Hli. SjM'cial Ke|)ort on the production of and markets for Butter and Cheese.
Printed for Inith dUlrilmtiim niut urm'iiiiint jutper*.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 8.
•. Annual Kc|iort of the Minister of Puhlic Works, for the Hscal yi-ar ende<l 3<)th,lune, 18!»3. Presented
Kith April, 181(4, hy Hon. .1. A. Ouiniet Printni for holh diitrihuliim utid tftminiud puprrn.
10. Annual Keiwirt of the Minister of Kailways and Canals, for the past fiscal year, from the Ist .Tuly,
181(1', to the ;«)th .lune, 18!l.3. Pre8.'nte<l 27th March, 1H'.(4, hy Hon. .1. Ilafftfart.
Printed for Ijoth dintrihution iind sfnimml pn/Kra.
67-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Pi^ieri.
A. 1894
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 9.
11. Aniiiiul Kcp'irt of the l)f|inrttiii-iit iif Mri'iik* aiui KiMlierieit, 1H!I3 - Muriii)-. rriwiitt-il Int Mny,
1M!M, by Sir CliarU'H HibU'rt Tii|il»'r Printnl for lutth iliilrilnilion nivl mmiiHuil piiprr:
tX*. AiiiHiitl Ki-|Hirt iif tli« l>i'|Nirtiiifiit iif Miiriiii- itiul KiKln-rifK, fur \,\w tiwuil yi'Hr vikIim) 3llth Jini«\
1S'.»3 Fiwherieit. I'riiwntwl lltli April, IWM, l>y Sir ('li«rl<« UiliU-rt TiipiKT.
I'rititfil for inAh ilittriliution iinil »ti»ioniil pnpi m.
11<(. Kr|«irt iif tlic Cliniriiinii cif the ll<Nir(l «>f StPiiiiiUiut liis|Mt'tiiiii, cU-., fur cali-mlar yt-nr cndi'il HlNt
|)ft't'lilli«'r, 1S!)H I'rintiil Jiir IkiIIi ithtrilmtion iiiiil lunninniil pUfMrn.
CONTENTS OK VOLUME 10.
IS. Rfiiortof tlip PoHtiimwttr < iciuTRl, for the year «-iiiIih1 WHli .Iiiiu-, Wt'A. PrewiitHH !lth April, 1H)M,
liy Sir Adolplic Ciiriiii I'rinlul for lioth ilitiriliutinii ami MtniDiuil pn/u m.
IS. AmiiiiiiI K»'|K)rt<if the Di-iwrtmeiit of th«' Interior, for tlif year INil,*!, Prt<wnt«<l 2Ut March, lH(t4,
liy lloii. T. M. Duly . I'riutnl for txttli ilitlriliiition iiul lutnionnl pitpi m.
I9ii. Siiiiiiiiury l<>'|M)rt of tli<> ( ■t'oloi^iual Survey l>e|)artiiieiit, for the your IHiKi, l'rei<ente<l 'J<lth Aliircli,
\H'M, liy Hon. T. M. Daly I'rinUil for lioth ilittrilmtion and uniiiiimol pii/u m.
14. AnnnnI Ki'|Hirt of the Uepurtnient of Iniliun Affaii-B, for the year enil)-<l SIhI Decenilier, IHW'A. I're-
wnted 'JUth March, IHiM, liy llon.'l'. M. Daly. . .Prmtnl for l-ith ilittrihution tiwi miiiiiuniil popirn,
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 11.
15. Rejiort of the ComniiKsioncr of the Nortli-we«t Mounted Police Force, 1S!)3. Presented l.Sth April,
1S!M, tiy Hon. \V. II. Iven I'rinlnl for Imlli ilmtriloitioi) onil midiiioio/ pn/n r».
1*. Re|H)rt of the Secretary of State of Canada, for the year en<led 31»t Decenilier, IH'.)',\. Presented
2t>th March, IWM, hy H<p|i. .1. dwti^an I'rintnl for luith tlitlrilnilion iinil M»»ionnl ptipim.
!•«. Civil Service List of Canada. lMi»,S. IVesented •_'«■ „ March, 1«!»4, by Hon. .1. Costitran.
I'rhitnl for liolh ilintriliution oiiil intnioiiiil pa/y m.
!•'<. Heiiort of the Hoard of Civil Service Kxnniiners, for the year enilinl 31st Decenilier, I8!(3. Presentwl
!H<lth March, 18'.H, liy Hon. .1. Costi^n /'rintal for liitli ilinlrilnitioti ami KtuKiomil po/Kru.
16i'. .Vnniiul Ke|M>rt of the Department of I'ublic Printing; and >Statioiiery of Canada, for the ynar ending
;iOth .lime, I8!l.'t, with a partial report for servic** during six inonths ending Slat Decenilier, 18!I3.
I'rewnted a3rd May, 1«!M, liy Hon. J. Costigan.
I'rinteil for liofh dittribution mid letgional puptm,
\it. ReiKirt of the .Toint Lilirarians of Parliament for the year 18!I3. Presented l.'ith March, 18!(4, liy
Hon. Mr. S|H'aker I'rinUd for immioiiiil piptrs onlj).
IW. KeiKirt of the Minixter of .fiistice as to Penitentiaries in Canada, for the year ende<l ,S((th .Tune, 18!t3.
Presented 20th March, 18!t4, by .Sir.Tohn Thom|>Hon.
J'rintal for Ixith dittrihu'ion <ind »i»»inniil p<ip> m.
19. R«!|Hirt of the De|iartinent of Militia and Defence of Canada, for the year ende<l 30th .fiine, 180.3.
Presented P.»th April, 1804, by Hon. .1. C. Patterwm.
I'riiitnl for liotli iliflriliutioii iiiiil wimfonal piiptrn.
19a. Establishment Lists of the Active .Militia for the financial year, 18!I4 OiJ. Presentefl 20th .luly, 1804,
by Hon. .1. C. I'atterson Prhitrd for Imth dittrilmtioii mid xenni mul p<iperK.
•O. Statement of the affairs of the Canadian Loan and Investment Comiiany, on the 3Ist December, 1803.
Presentetl 2«th .July, 1804, by Hon. Mr. Sjieaker Not printid.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 12.
Kl. Royal Commission on the Liquor Traffic. Minutes of evidence taken in the provinces of Nova
Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island.
Printed for botk dittribution mid uttiomd papern.
6
67-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Pai^era.
A. 1894
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 13.
91. Royal CuiiiiiiiitMiiin mi th«< Liquor Triittic. Miiiiiti'H i>f I'viiliMU'c tHkcii in tlic |in>viiirf i>( <^iii'Ih-o,
I'rinlrit fur lutlh ilintrilnition miil »i imiomtl fxiprrt.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 14.
91. Hoyiil rominiMMion mi tln' Ijiniior Trattio. Miiiiitt'n nf ••viili'iiet' fiikfu in the |iriivin('i"< "f Muiiit<iba,
Xiirtli-wi'Mt IVrritorii'M and liritiHli Coliiiiibiii. . . .I'riiilnl /ir Imlh ilUtrilniUini it ml fimiuiiiil pttpirt.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 16.
SI. Roynl OimuniHHion dii the Litjuur Tratfic. Minutes ■ f • ■ It-iicr taki-n in the (inn inct- uf Ontario.
Print' I I ■'■ ixttk ilittriliulmit null tisiinniil p<ip>r».
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 16.
91. Kuyal Cunimi^Mimi un the Lii|U<ir Traffic. V.hw. . of evidt-nw t»V n in tlif I'niti-d Statrx.
Frintiii J'li liiith ilintrihittliDi aiiil fvnniiiiinl /«(/<tr«.
CONTENTS OF VOLUME 17.
•9. Rt'|Hirt iif tlif t'oniniissimK-r, iKnniiiion rolii-i-, for tln" yt-ar IwH, midfr Rcviw ' <•* of f^inoda,
chu|itcr 184, Hfctioii 5. I'rcHt-nted ISltli Maruli, \KtA, liv Sir .lolni Tlioiui-on ynt printnl.
9S. Return to an order of the House of Coininou", dati-d l.'itli March, 1H<»;<, for a return showiu),' the
iiuuiImt of eniployeiM difinissc 1 from tlic l'riiu'i> Kdward Island Railway mhicc the l»t ilay of
March, 1K!»2, the naiiic of each ein|iliiyee disniinHed, the date of each di»iiiis»al, the reaMotm for
s\ich di.iniisxals ; also the names of employeex reinstateil, if any. I're«eiited "Jntli Mar>li, IM!M.
Mr. I'irrii X'lt pritilnl.
94. Return to an onler of the HouHe nf ConimmiK, dated 3l)th March, ISIK), for co|>ieM nf all d<H'iuni'iitH,
claims, (K'titioiis, corres|H>ndence, re|MirtH of tlie su|ierintendent of the Chamlily canal, reports t)f
experts and otlieix, plans, agreements, pro|Hisals and decisions of the government in relation to
the claim of .loseph Lacouture, of the parish of ISt. Lue, tor ilanuiKeH causeil to his pro|HTty liy
the waters of tiie t'liamlily caual. Presented 'Jttth March, 1H!M. -Mr. Lmrriiiu . . . .Nul /iriiitnl.
95. Statement of all su|H>raniuiations anil retiring allowances in the civil service, giving the name and
rank of each person superatuniated op retin-d, his salary, age and length of service ; his allowance
and cause of retirement, whether vacancy has lieen tilled liy promotion or new ap|Miintment, &c.,
for the year ended aist Decemlier, 18!I3. Pi-ewnted 20th March, IHJM, l>y Hon. (i. K. Foster.
.V"^ ftrhiliil.
98(1. Return to an order of tlii' House of Commons dati'<l 10th .\pril, IH'.M, for a return showing the num-
l>er of iK'rnuuient civil servants in each department, inside and outside seivici , w ho eontrihute to
the suiH'rannuation fund, and the gross amount of wages paid. l'resente>l 'J.">th .Vpril, 1H!M. —
Mr. Mc.Miilliii N"t firiiiliil.
9B. Statement of ;'.\|>enditiire on aceount of miscellaneous unforeseen expennes, fnnn 1st July, 1S'.I,'{, to
date. I'resentid I'uth March, IM'.il, hy Hon. C. K. Foster Xot i>riiitnl.
97. Statement of Governor Ceneral's \Vi.'->'ant8 issued since last seHHimi of parliament, on account of the
fiscal years 18(12 !(.'i and IS'.W !I4, iu r.ccordance with the Consolidated Hevcnue and Audit Act,
section 32, tiubset:tion '< Presented 20th March, 1S1*4, liy Hon. (J. K. Foster Xnt printed.
9H. Papers and cc)rres|Kmdence relative to ihe payment tu the Canadian Pacific Railway C(>m[iany of
amounts de«lucted from their sulwidy in the year 1883. Presented 20th March, 1894, hy Hon. <».
E. Foster Nut printeil.
90. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 20th
March, 1894, for copies of papers and corres|K)ndence relating to charges made against Mr. Justice
Palmer, or to his resignation and acceptance thereof. Presenttsl 20th March, 18it4.--.l/r. iMiins.
Not printitl.
«BP
57-68 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME n— Continued.
so. Return of a|)i>licationM fur regJHtration under the proviHinnH of chapter 131, RevJHed Stututfs cif
Canada, "An Act reH|K*(-ting Trade UniunM." PreHented 20th March, IHiH, 1)y Hun. .T. Costit^nn.
Ifot printeil.
31. List of public ottifprM tu whom oumniiggJonH have isxued under chapter 1!) uf the ReviMed StututPH uf
Canada, durint; tiiu year lH!t3. I'reHeuted 20th March, 18114, by Hun. J. CoHtigan.
I'riiUiil in JWi. /')'.
8)1. Order eHtablishinft certain rules in res|H'ct of matters therein mentioned, in the Kxche<iuer Court of
Canada. I'resentwl aotli March, 18!M, by Hon. .1. Costigan Not print) il.
SS. Copy of un order in council of the 17th January, 18iM, continuing for the current year the innvie of
licen.es to United States tishin;; vesselB tu enter any (lortB un the Atlantic cuast fur the piu'clmse
of bait, etc. Presented 21st March, 18!I4, by Sir Charles Hibbert Tujuier Nut printed.
SSd. Return to an address of the House of Coniiuons to his excellency the (Jovernor (Jeneral, dated 16tli
April, 1894, for : 1. Copy of order in council ap|K)inting Thei^pliile Sab*iurin fishery ovei-seer fur
the division of the Lake of Two Mountains and Isle Perrot. 2. Of the order in council a|i|Miinting
Julien Mout|M'tit fisliery overseer fur the same divisiun. 3. Of all instructions an<l orders issued by
the Ksheries de|>artment to the said overseers. 4. Of the rejiorts of the two said overseers fur the
years 18!ll, 18!t2. Presented 5th .Fune, 1894.— Afr. Hnrirwxt Not iirinttii,
•86. Return to an addre.ss of the House uf Cumnions to his excellency the (Jovemor Oeneral, date<l 2tlth
.\pril, 1S!14, for copies of all telexranis, letters, |>etitiuus, unlers in cuuncil, and all corre8|H)iidence
H'latiiiK to the dismissal of Timothy Mct^ueen as fishery overseer in the jwuiity of Kent, Ontario.
I'resented Sth May, 1894. -^r. Camplicll Not printed.
88c Return to an address uf the House uf Commons to his excellency the (Juvernor (Jeneral, date<l 2.5th
April, 1894, fur copies of all pa|)ers, letters, iietitiuns and re|x)rts s«>nt tu the minister of marine and
fisheries, from 1st OctulsT, 1893, tu tliis date, res|>ectin(? tlie dismissal uf I. B. Chevalier, of llier-
ville, from tlie |iost u! fishery overstn-r ; and uf any communicatinn sent from the (fovernmeiit to
the said L H. Chevalier. Pi-esented 11th May, 1894. -.Vr. Bechard Not jirintid.
S8>/. Retimi tu an address uf the House of Cmnmuns to his excellency the (Joveruor (ieneral, dated 30th
March, 1894, for a return of all pa|iei-s, corres|K)ndetice, telctfrains, re|HU'ts to and orders in cuuncil,
tugether with all ilepartuientiil orders relating tu tlie discharge from oHice as su|H"Mntendent uf St.
Paul's island and kee|ier uf Ingonish island, uf Mr. Sanmel CampU'll, ur relating tu his sujieran-
miation aUowance. Presented 2.'<rd .May, 1894. — .Vr. Duriea .Not printrd.
88c Return^to an order of the House of Commons, date<l 14th May, 1894, fur copies of all corres|Hiudeuce
since 1st .January, 1892, to the present time, from Hshery officers and others from the western
coimties of Nova Hcotia and the comity of Charlotte in New Briniswick, as regards the taking of
lobsters and uf the limitation uf sixe, and of all reccimmendations in regard tu the same. Also a
copy of all corresiKmdence Initween the minister uf marine and fisheries and his urticials and all
other iK<i"suns .as regards the close sea.sun for the herring fishing at Two Island harlM>iir, (irand
Manan, and n( tlie weirs at that place. Pre.sente<l 11th .lune, 1894. —.Ur. Jioiiem Not printe<l.
88/.^Return to an address of the House of Commons tu his excellency the (iovemor (Jeneral, dated 26th
April, 1894, for copies of all orders in council and departmental urdei-s now in force in the pro-
vince of Ontario, cuncerning fisheries therein, and uf all |>etitions received by the department with
regard to the same. Presentetl 21st June, 1891. — ^fr. AfclJreyor Not printed.
84. List of all lauds sold by the Canadian Pacific Railway Cnnipany from the 1st OctolsM-, 1892, to the
1st Octulier, 1893. Presented 21st March, 1894, by Hun. T. M. Daly .Not printed.
84a. Return under resolution of the 20th February, 1882, in so far as the sar.ie is furnished by the depart,
ment of the interior, ies|)ecting the Canadian Pacific Hallway Company. Presented 28th March,
1894, by Hon. T. M. Daly Not printed.
84'j. Return to an oitler of the House of Commons, dateil loth March, 1893, for copies of all documents,
memorials and corresiHindence Itetween the government and the Sorel Isiard uf trade and others,
in relation to the granting of a subsidy to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, for the re-
building of a bridge at 8t. Michel d'Yamaska. Presented 10th April, 1894.— J/;', linineaii.
Nut printed.
8
57-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME n— Continued.
84c. Return t«i an addresH of the tSenate to his exct-llfiicy the (Jovernor (Jeneral, dated 5th April, 18!»4, for
a Hcliedule of the paswiiger and freight ruteti of the Canaiiian PaciHc Railway (Vinipany, incliidiii);
tlie rates from St. Paul and MinneaiMilix to the HealMiard, now in forte. I'renented HOtli -April,
m>4.~ Hon. Mr. Boiilton Not printid.
S4(f. Return to an addrenK of the Senate to his excellency the Governor (Jeneral, datol 17th May, 1894,
for a schedule of the passeuKer anil freight rates of the Intercolonial Railway ; and the revenue de-
rived by the Canadian I'acitic Railway C^ini|HUiy on its western division. l>etween Port Arthur and
Calgary, for the financial years ending l«!>2and 18!»3. Presented (5th .Tune, 18!M. -Hon. .Mr. Hniilton.
Not print I it.
.18. Return of orders in cmnicil, in accordance with sulMection ('/.) of section 38 of the regulations for the
survey, administration, dis|K)sal and management of Dominion lands within the 4U-mile railway
lielt in the province of British Columliia. Presented 27th March, 1894, hy Hon. T. M. Daly.
Not printril.
.tSa. Return of orders in council of 18!).3 relating to the department of the interior, in ..ccorflance with
clause ttl of the Dominion Lands Act, chapter .")4, Revised Statutes of Canada. Presented 27tli
March, 1894, by Hon. T. M. Daly Not printnl.
85fc. Statement in reference to fishing Uiunty |iaynients for 18',l2-93, required by chapter iKi of the Revised
Statutes of Canada. Pi-esented 28th March, 1894, by Sir Charles Hibliert Tupper Not printnl.
86. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 1st March, 1893, for copies of all reports, dcK'U-
ments, maps, manu.scripts and corr(,'s|sindence in relation to e>:plorating exis'ditions lieretofore
made to James Hay and llud.son Bay. Presented 27th March, 1894. -. I//'. Joncn.i . . Not printnl.
87. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (Jovernor (Jeneral, dated 2ttth
March, 1894, for a return showing co|)ien of all |)etitions or coninumications to the government or
to any memlM-r thereof, or to iiis excellency, a-tking for any interfewnce with the sentence pa.-'seil
liy his lordship the Hon. Mr. .lustice Rose on Messrs. Mc(ireevy and Connolly, of all leplies
thereto and all corres|Hindence lietween any menilH-r of tlie government luid any I'ther |SMson on
the subject of commutation of such .sentence : of all medical re|Kirts made in regard to either .siiil
Mc(ireevy or Connolly, whilst undergoing such sentence ; of all reisjrts or recomnietidatidiis on
the said subject, by any menilier of the government to his e.xcellency, and of all replies thereto and
of all orders in co\nicil in anywise liearing u|)on the subject of the comiiiiilation of said sentences.
Presented 29tli March, 1894. .!/;•. .Unlork Not printnl.
3N, Detailed statement of all Intnils and securities registered in the department of the secretary of state
of Canada, since last return, 1S93, submitted to the parliament of Canada under section 23, chapter
19, of the Revised Statutes of Canada. Presented 29th March, 1894, by Hon. .). Costigan.
Not fO'ilitnl,
80. Return to an onler of the House of Cinnmoiis, dated 2lttli March, 1894, for a return showing the
dates in each year since May .Vli, 1887, when the Public Aicount.s, the Appropriation Accounts,
and the Trade and Navigation Returns of Canada, for the next preceding K.-.cal year, have been
published and ready for distribution; and when the saiil accounts and returns have U'en issued
to the senators and niiMiiliers of t'.e House of Ccunmons of Canada in i juli of the years aforesuid.
Presented »Mi .March, 1894.-.l/r. Charlton Not printnl.
•40. Retmn to nn order of the Hou.sc of Connuons, dated 13th March, 189,3, for a retmn showing the
numlx-r of school teachers engaged in teaching in the North-west 'I'erritories, and the length of
time each was engaged during the past year, with the salary ivceived ; also the numlsr of pupils
attending each school, anil all siunces of revenue for the maintenance of schools. Presenile! 2nd
April, 18i:4.— .1/r. 6'<m/)/c Not /irintnl.
40(i. Supplementary return to an address of the Senate to liis excellency the (lovernor (iuieral, elated 3rd
February. 189.3, for : 1. .\ (opy of the delilM'rations, resolutions and ordinances of the former
ciuuicil of Assinilsiia, relating to educational matters within its jurisdiction as it existed on tlie
banks of the Red river before the creation of the province of Manitoba. 2. .\ statement of the
amoinits paid by the said council of Assiniboia for the maintenance of schools, showing the person"*
to whom siich payments were nuide, the sclns>ls for which such amounts were |inid, and the
religiouR denomination to which such scliiM>ls iK-hinged. ". A statement of the amoimts paid by
9
67-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papew.
A. 1894
VOLUME 17— Continued.
the Hiidtton Bay ComiNiny, or by itH agents, to the itchools then exixting in the teiritorieti fonuinK
to-day the province of ^{^nitolm. 4. A copy of all memoranda and instructionH Herviug as luutiH
for the negotiations as a reHult of whieli Maiiitolta l)ecame one of the provinces of tiie confwlera-
tioii ; together with a copy of the minutes of the deliberation of the |ierHoiig charged on lM)th
Iiarts to settle the coiirlitiong of the creation of the province of Manitolu and of itH entrance into
the confe<leration ; and also a copy of all memoranda, returns and orders in council, establishing
such conditions of entrance, or serving as a basis for the pre|>arq^ion of "The Manitoba Act."
;">. A copy of the dehpatches and instructions from the imiierial government to the government of
Canada on the subject of the entrance of the province of Manitoba into the <K)nfe<:leration,
comprising therein the reconuiiendations of the ini|)erial govennnent concerning the rights and
pri\ileges of the |H>pulation of the Territories, and the guarantees of protection to be accorded to
the ac(|uire(l rights, to the proj^rty, to the cusUmuh and to the institutions of that population by
the govermuent of Canada, in the settlement of the difficulties which marked that period of the
history of the Canadian West. (i. A copy of the acts passed by the legislature of Manitoba
relating to education in that province and e8i)ecially of the first act passed on this subject after
the entruice of the said province of Manitoba into the confederation, and of the laws existing
>i|H)n the same subject in the said province imme<liately liefore the iMissinii of the acts of 1S!H),
relating to the public scIkmiIs and I'elating to the department of education. 7. A C(jpy of all regu-
lations with ie«i>ect to schools passed by the government of .Manitolui or by the advisory board, in
virtue of the laws passed in IHiMt by the legislature of Manitoba relating to public schools and the
department of education. S. A copy of all corres|Kmdence, |)etitionK, memoranda, resolution-,
briefs, factiims, judgments (as well of first instance as in all stages of apiieal), lelating to the
sch(K)l laws of the said province of Manitoba, since the 1st .lune, 18!K), or t.. the claims of
catholics on this subjtict ; and also a copy of all reiKirts to the privy council and of all orders in
council relating to the same subject since the same date. Presented 2lst March, IH'M. — Hun. Mr.
Hi riiiir Printed fi>r Imth (lintrifjiitioii iiiul ginniDnal iMiiicrn.
AOIi. Return to an address of the House of Conuuons to his excellency the (Jovernor (teneral, dated 30tb
March, 18114, for copies of all papers, [K'titions, letters, re|)orts, minutes and orders in council
ri'S|M'ctiug the schf)ol law of J'rince Kdward Island, intituled " The Public Sch(K)ls Act, IS""."
Presented 23rd April, 18'.t4. — Mr. Lirlnir Printed for hiitlt diftriliutidii and seniiioiKtl piipirn.
4<»<'. Return to an addi-ess (jf the Senate to liis excellency the (lovemor General, dated !(th April, I8!I4,
for copies <if all schiK)l ordinances, scluml regulations and amendments thereto, adopted by the
legislative assembly, the executive, and any Inmrd or council of education, in reference to the
establishment, nuiintenance and adininistraticn of sclunils in the Xorth-west Territories since
U'X"). .\lso for copies of all is'titions, memorials and corres|Hindence in reference thereto. Alsi)
for copies of all orders in council, reiK)rts to the governor general in council, and all communica-
tions and ivpresentations to the authorities in the North-west Territories. Presented 3<Jtli April,
1H!I4.--Mm. Mr. Jirrnicr Printed for both distrilmtion and gemiioniil piiixru.
40(/. RetiuMi to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 21st
March, 18!I4, for copies of all |H'titions, memorials and corres]Hindence, in reference to the ap|>eal
made in the name of the Roman catholic minority of tiie pi'ovince of Manitoba, in reference to the
selioiil laws of that province; also copies of reports to and ordeis in coiuicil in reference to the.
same : also copies of the case s\ibmitted to the supreme court of Canada respecting aforesaid api«'al,
and iuchiiiiug factums and all uuiterials in connection therewith, and copies of all judgments
rendered and answers given by said court on or to the questions referre I to them. Presented 27th
.lune, 18!t4. — Mr. LiiHiritrc Printiit for Hinnioinil piiperKonlii.
41* Retnrn to an addrj'ss of the Senate to his excellency the Governor (ieneral, elated 2(ttli March. 18!!.'',
for a copy of all documents in relation to the demand of Michel Gosselin, Half-breed, living at
RoselM-rry, Manitoba, and claiming indemnity for losses sustained during the troubles in the
North-west in 18t>!) and 1870. Also a copy of all corresiwndence exchanged l)etween the Dominion
government and the said Michel Gosselin in relaticm to the said claim. Piesente<l 21st Marcli,
18H4.— i/oii. Mr. IhlliroH Not printed.
4S. Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the (Jovernor (teneral, dati-d 21st Fe\)ruary,
18!t3, for a copy of all the changes that have been made in the tariff since the national lK)licy
became law in 187it, giving the name of each article, showing the original duty im|K>se<l thertHui,
tlu' amount of increase or reduction sub8e<iuently m.vde, or jjlaced u)io'i the free list, together with
the date of all such alterations in the tariff. Presented 2nd April, W.)\.—Hon. .Mr. MrMiUiin.
Not printed.
10
57-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
44
VOLUME 17— Continued.
4S. Rfturn to an iiriltT of the Hduxe of CoinmonB, diitwl 3<»th March, \X'M, for a coiiiph'ti' lint of the
revi»iii(f oftictTs umlct thu Franchise Act, giving their naniex, their electoral divi»ic)ni«, and when
apiKiintecl. Prenentwl oth April, lWP-4.- .S/r Hirtor himjivin Nnt iirinlnl.
Retnrn to an order of the Honse of ConinionH, dated 20th March, 1K!)4, for return of all rates,
general or K|)ecial, charged en the Intercolonial Kailway on through freight from L«''vi«to Halifax ;
with the dates when such existing general or special rates canu' into force, and in cases where such
rates have been altered, specifying the alteration. I'rcHi-nted Oth April, 18!(4.— .1/r. Itiiiim.
A'of priiiteil.
44a. Keturn to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated .3()th
March, lHi)4, ff)r all pajiers, corresptmdeiice, telegrams, reisirts to, or orders in c-ouncil, or ilepart-
inental orders not already brought down to parliament, relative to the pun^hase of the Harris
property in St. .loim for the Intercolonial Railway, or the payment of the purchase moni'vs there,
for or relative to the uses or puqioses to which that pro|M'rty has since l)een applied. Also for a
list of all the claimants to the title of said pro|(erty or any interest therein, together with the
amounts paid to them resin'ctively, and a aumniury or abstract of all dee<ls or agreements taken
from the claimants res|)ectively. Also for a statement of all moneys since laid out u|Min such
l>roi>erty, and its total cost up to date. Presented I'.tth June, ISiM. — Mr. /tinii.i. . . .Not printnl.
45. Return to an aildress of the House of Conunons t*) his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated 20th
March, l.Slt3, for copies of all corres|H)ndence between the gov<Tmnent of Ibitish Columbia ami
the minister of the interior, relating to the iKiundary of the railway belt in the province <if Hritish
Columbia. I'resented itth .Vpril, 1H!»4. .Mr. Mnrn AV priittnl.
40.
47.
4N.
Return to an oider of the House of Commons, dated ',V)t\\ March, IMl'l, for a statement showing the
various amounts paid by way of l)ounty on pig iron produced in Canada, the (piantities produced,
and the parties to whom the iHumty was paid, and the province in which their works are
situated, since the date of the last return. I'resenti'd lOtli April, 1S!I4. — Mr. K'lijnr.
J'rilltttI fnr .^f'n:<in)ttlf pitfrr^ oltllf.
Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated SOtli .March, 1S1I4, for a ret\nii showing (by
provinces) the value of mining machinery admitted free of duty since the year IS'.MI. I'resented
Kith .April, l.Si»4. —Mr. Mnrn Nnt printni.
Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2i)th March, 1S1I4, for a return of : 1. Tlie
mimber of students who have graduated from the royal military college since its establishment.
2. Number of these graduates who are now in the public service of Canada and mnnlM^r in the
service of the imperial governmunt. .S. .\mount expended on capital account and on income sinct-
the college was estalilished. 4. Xiuulierof students graduated in 1H!W. .">. Nmnber of students
now in attendance. (I. Total anio\uit of salaries paid each year, to the different persons employed
in connection with the college. 7. Name of the connnandant of the coUegi' ; liis salary, per-
(piisites, if any, in the way <if fre, residence, maintenance tli'-reof, supplies, servants, iVc. S. The
cost of the residence for use of connnandant, if purchased, and the amount expended theriKin by
the government since the purcha.se. I'resented 12th .Vpril, 1M!I4. -.U/'. .Mnlnck.
I'riiilnl for m nnionnl pipi r.i oiilii.
4Wrt. Supplementary return tot i. 4S. I'lesented 11th .May, 1H!I4. —.!/;•. .Mntork.
I'riiitiil for xisnimin/ pnpirs onl/i.
4W. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated .'JOth March, lH".t4, for a retnrn of the sentence
im|K)se<l by the supreme court of the province of New Brunswick u|)on .lohn V. Kllis, editor of the
St. .John tilohi, in the past year, for an alleged c<intempt of court ; together with the names of the,
judges com|iosing the court at the time the seLWHcc was imiM)sed. I'resented 12th April, lH'.t4. -
Mr. Diiviii, Not prhitnl.
50. Keturn to an address of the House of Conunons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated 2i)th
March, 1S!I4, for the pnKluctioii of all corres|X)ndence and other paiH-rs relating to the mpyright
(juestion which have not already Ix'cn brought down. I'lesented 13th .\pril, l.S!»4. — .t/c. Ktlijnr.
J'rintid for nniniunn' pnpi r.i onlii.
11
67-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME n^Continued.
SI.
ss.
Uottini to an order of the HoiiHe of Cjiiihioiin, (iat(Hl'3l)th March, 18U4, for a gtatpnient Hhowiii); the
working of the civil servict! insurance, how many civil Hervants have insured their liven in such
insurance, and for what amounts resiiectively, without giving their nam<'s. Presented 13th April,
lS9i.—Sir Hectnr /^imjoin Not printid.
Return to on order of the House of Commons, dated 16th April, 18!>4, for a return of the receiptK and
e.\|)en(liturPH to dates of 10th April, 18114, and 10th April, 1H93. Presente<l Kith April, 1H!»4.
Sir Richnnl Ctirtirrijiht Not printed.
SSn. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 7th May, 18!)4, for a return showing the total
amount of receipts and e.\|M>nditures chargeable to consolidate)! fund from 1st July, 1S!(3, to 1st
May, 18)»4, and also for same |>eriiKl from Ist .luly, 18!»2, to Ist May, 18!t3. Presentwl 11th May,
18!t4. — Sir HichiirU C'iirtwri(iht Nat printed.
58. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (Jovernor (ieiicral, dated loth
April, 18)(4, for copies of all correg|)on(lence l)etwe«'n Mr. L. Vankoughnet an<l the goyernnu-nt,
or any niemlwr, or department, relating to his suix'ranmiation, and of all communications ur
re|Mirts to council or the treasury Ixiard or any member of the government, relating to such
HU|x,'rannup*ioii, and of any orders in council dealing with the same. Presentetl 17th April, I8!t4.
—Mr. AfiUiir.k- Nut printid.
54. Return to an order of the House of Couunons, date<l 1st March, 1803, for a return of any corresjwn-
dence which may have taken place Ijetween tlie government and any of the railway companies
which have received public lands in aid of railway construction, in reference to the prices at which
these lauds are held and iis to the steps taken by these companies to fulfil their trust by securing
the early settlement of the lands so granted. Presented 18th April, 1804.— .1/r. .ViV/ji, Bothiirl/.
Not printrd.
55. Retiu'n to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th April, 1804, for a return show injf the names
of othcials employed in ctmncction with the Canadian exhibit at the Columbian exposition from
tlie province of Xova Scotia, showing their otticial position, amount of salaries paid and dates a*
which such employment ceased. Presented 20th April, 1804.- ^.Vc. Piittirmii, t'olchoter.
Not printed.
56. Return to an order of the Mouse of Connnons, dated 10th April, 1804, for a statement in tlie form of
Table C ill the l)liie-lss)k already publislied on the French treaty, for the years ending 3<Jtli June,
1802 and 1803. Presented LfJth April, 1804.— J/r. Louritr Printid for neimional pii/Kra onlii.
56rt. Supplementary return to an order nf the House of Ccminions, dated lOtli April, 1804, containing
correspondence and other matter relating to the French treaty. Presented .'Ird .luly, 1804. .lAr.
Lii n riir Printid fur tuniiioniil jxipi m oidu.
57. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieiieral, dated 30tli
.March. 1804, for copies nf all correspomieiice l)etween the goveruiiieut and (ieorgc (loodwiii in
connection with the transfer of his contracts or any of his contracts on the Soiilanges canal.
Presented '_»3rd April, 1804.— -l/c. Charlton Not printid.
57(1. Heturii to an address of the House of Commons tti his e.\celleiicy the (Iovernor Oeneral, dated 2.Jtli
April, 1804, for copies of nil comniunicatioii.« in the fonn of letters, petitions an<l re|K)rts. from 1st
April, 1887, to 1st March, 1804, between the government and Mr. .1. U. Many, or the uiunici|>al
council of St. Luc, in the county of St. .lean, in relation to the constniction of a swing bridge im
the Chambly canal, cip|H)site the south-east end of Ste. Tht-rese island, in the Richelieu river.
Presenteil 4th .luiie, 1804.- Jfr. Bi'ckiint Not printid.
57/(. Return to an addivss of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor (Jeiieral, dated 28tli
-M.iy, 1804, for : 1. Copies of all the rejsirts of the engineers recommending that certain changes
lie made in the original contriM't, istth in the materials and the nature of the works entering into
the cimstriiction if the locks and other iiiascmry on sections 1 and 2 of the Soulanges canal, giving
the reasons why such changes should be made and the names of the engineers who recoiiimended
such changes. 2. Copies of all the corres|x)iideiice exchanged iMftweeii the engineers, the de|iart-
inent of railways and canals, the contractor and other persons in connection with those changes,
and copies of all ortlers in council in relation thereto. Presented 0th .Tune, \X'.H. - Afr. Turle.
Not printed.
12
57-58 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1804
VOLUME n^Continued.
iriiital.
iintiuniiifr
'M. .\fr.
■fH Olllll.
atet) »lth
lotlwiii in
|ri-H caiiiil.
Iirlntal.
ated 2.")tli
from iHt
uniciiml
iri(lg»' on
ion river.
I>rlntiil.
xtvd 2Htli
chan({<'s
ring into
111, giviiin
iniieiidpd
e (U'lwrt-
cliangi'!*,
T'irtc.
t printed.
i7c. Return to an order of tlie House of Cuniinons, datt*d Kith April, 1804, for copies of all advertisements
inviting tenders for the conHtruction of sections 1 and 2 of the Houlanges canal ; also copies of
specifications cxinnected with said work, copies of extensions of said i|)eciticati<iiiH and tenders with
estiinatt.-d quantities and work to be done according to engineer's estimate ; also copies of all
tenders, copies of contracts let, of corresjiondence which took place between the cMntrtkctors
tendering for this work and the contractor to whom the contracts were awarded and thede|>artment
of railways and canals in this matter, copies of all reiHii ts of engineers since the letting of the
contract. Presented 14tli June, 18iH.— iVr. TV/r/c Not printrd.
VId. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 14th May, 1894, for : 1. Copies of all corresjion-
dence lietween the department of railways, the minister of public works and any other |>ersnns in
relation to sections 12 and 13 of the Soulanges canal. 2. Copies of the call for tenders and of all
tenders received. 3. Copies of contracts awarded. Presented 14th July, 1894. —,Vr. yorfi.
^^i)t printal .
59. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated L'th July, 1891, for copies of all corresisnidence
relating to application for increase of saliiry of Judge Johnstone, county court judge for Halifa.\
county. Nova Scotia. Presented 25th April, 1894. — ^fr. Frimtr Xut printed .
5©. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 30th March, 1894, for a return showing the names
of all prisoners who have died in jienitentiaries in Canada during the last ten years, with the caiise
of death and the length of their last sickness in each case. Presented 25tli Ajiril, 1894. —.l/r.
Miirtin Not printed.
50a. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Oovernor (leneral of the lOtli
April, 1894, for a statement showing amount of receipts each month for gate money at Kingston
(lenitentiaiy between 1st January, 188", and Ist January, 1894. Statement showing (lis|Kisition of
these moneys, including statement showing the amount of those moneys deiKisited in any banks,
with the names of such banks and particulars us to whose credit siuli deiKjsits were made. Pre-
sented 20th .Vpril, 1894.— J//-. Muloek Not printnl.
50fc. Return to an address of the House of Conunons to his excellency the tiovernor (Jeneral, dated 13th
March, 1893, for a statement showing ; ('(.) Amotnit of money received as visitors' entrance fees
at the Kingston penitentiary during each year from 31st January, 1885, to 1st February, 1893.
(6.) Payments out of said moneys to the receiver general, and dis|)osition of such fluids. |c. Il'ar-
ticulars of gissls mimufactured and work done at said institution for any of its otticers, showing
who supplied the material for such goods, what sums were charged to said otiicers for said g(Msls,
and what sums have been actually paid during each of said years for said gissls. (>/. ) (Quantities
of coal oil and gas supplied micIi otficers, amount paid therefor, and when. ('.I Amount of laundry
work done at said institution during said dates, for whom done, amount charged and paid therefor,
with dates of such , aymentsand names of [lersons making such payments. Presented 2t>tli April,
\»\i\.—.Mr..Miili>ek .Not prinlid.
HHc. Return (in part) to an address of the House of Comnions to his excellency the (lovernor (Jeneral,
t!ated .SOtli Marcli, 1894, for copies of all charges brought to the attention of tlie government or
any department since 1H91 in ret;ard toany matters connected with the Kingston iH'nitentiary, and
the Pritish Columbia penitentiary ; of all ap|Hiintnieiit of persons to make investigations into any
such charges, including their instructions ; of all correspondence betwi'en any of sucli persons and
any memlier of the government or department ; of ,all eviilence taken on any such ini|iiiries ; of all
rejMirts thereon, including any schedules in connection with such reports ; and of all other docu-
ments and paiiers relating to any alleged irregularities in c<innection with the management of said
institutions since 1891. I'resentMl 1st May, 1894. Mr. Mulmk Not printed.
HOil. Supplementary return to no. 59c I'resented loth May, 1894. - .Mr. .Miiloik Not printed.
59i. Further supplementary return to no. 59c. Presented 15th May, 1894.— .1/c. .Mut<iek Not printed.
•O. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated Ist March, 189.3, for a return of the reisirtor
reiKirts of plans and surveys of the (ialops Rapids channel, made by Mr. Kennedy. Presented 2(ith
April, 1894,— J/ r. Keid Not printed.
18
67-68 Victoria.
List of SessioHal Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME 17— Continued.
61. Kftiini t<> an mldrwH cif the Hoiiw of Commoiii* to HIh excellency the Governor General, (late<l 30th
March, 1804, for eopien of all re|>ortH made to the (lu|>artment of the interior or to the suiM-rin-
tenrlent general of Inrlinn aifiiirH aM to the value of tlie Thoiisund i«landH and any offers received
for the purchase of the wune. Piesented 2(ith April, 1S04.— .Vr. Afilh f BolhieellJ.
Printed for <liiitrihiitii>n imlp .
••. Return t<i an order of the (louse of Coninionx, date<l Kith April, 1894, for copies of rejmrt of engineer
who in«i)eoted river A\ix-K(>seanx, river Aiix-Rats and river La->Seine, in the electoral district of
Provencher. Presented 1st May, 1894. Mr. LaRiviere Jfnt printed.
AS. Return to an order of the House of Commons, datwl ,SOth March, 1894, for a return of all i)a|)er9 and
corres|X)n'lence relative to a claim for compensation for railway damages made by one Charles
Cottin, of Midgell, Prinet; Edward Island, in the railway department of the government. Pre-
sented Ist May, 1894.— .1/r. Ihirien iVo< printed.
•4. Return to an order of the House of Commons, flated 23rd April, 1894, for the report of the commis-
sion apiK>inted to in(|uire into all matters concerning the Trent Valley canal. Presented Ist May,
1894. — .Vr. Hmihrx Not printed.
•5. Return to an order of the HcniHe of Commons, dated 25th April, 1894, for a return giving the amount
paid out f)f the Six Nation Indians' fund (by way of gift or loan) to individual members from the
year 188(> to date, stating in each case : The name of the ]>erson, the fact of whether gift or loan,
the date when |)aid, the amount, th«i rf-ason for the gift or loan, the autlioiity for such gift or loan,
the ccmditions on which such loan was made, the provision for repayment, the amount repaid-
Presented 2nd May, 1894.— .1/r. Putermn CJirantJ Xnt printed.
65(1. Return to an order of tlie House of Commons, datiKl Kith April, 1894, for a return showing the
amount of money that has U-en |>aid out of the funds of the Six Nation Indians for the payment
of debts incurred by individual niembevs thereof since the year 188(>, and giving : 1. The names of
the several jK-rsons who incurre<l the debts, with the seiwrate amounts, the date or dates when
incurred, and the pro|K>rtion thereof that has lieen paid. 2. The names of the cteditors to whom
the payments were made, th<' dates when i)aid, with the total sum paid to each of such creditors ;
and stating in each case the authority given for incurring tiie debt, tlie authority for ])ayment of
the same, and whether such ainountn have l)C'en repaid to the fund in whole or in part out of the
annuities of tiie individuals on whose account the payments were made, and whether s\ich was the
condition on which such payments were authorized. Presented 14th May, 1894. — ^fr. Putrrmn,
( Hrnnt) Nut printed.
Return to an address of tlie House of Commons to his excellency the Governor ( Jeneral, dated 2oth
April, 1894, for copies of all |)etitions fnmi the Indians of the Saugeen reserve claiming the exclu-
sive right of fishing in French bay, lake Huron, of all answers to the .same, and of all departmental
ordei's in reference to that subject. Pnwented IGth May, 1894. — Mr. Luttrier Not printed.
Supplementary return to no. (>,%. Presented 23rd July, 1894. -iW/-. Laurier Nut printed.
Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the (Jovernor General, dated 10th April, 1894,
for copies of all petitions or connniinications to the governor general, or the government, or any
niemlier thereof, asking for interference with the death sentence passed by Mr. Justice Harrison
U|Min the two Chelialis Indians, Peter and .Jack, in November, 1893, for the munler of the late
.-Vlliert Kdwatd Pittendrigh, in New Westminster, British Cohimbia, on the 27th October, 1892 ;
of all replies thereto, and all corresisnidence between any member of the government and any
other (lerson on the subject of commutation of such sentence; of all re|)orts or recommendations
on the said subject by any member of the government to his excellency, and of all replies thereto,
and of all orders in council in anywise liearing u|H)n the subject of the commutation of said death
sentence to impriscmment for life. Presented 14th May, 1894. — Bon. Mr. Miirlnnen. .Not printed
66. Retimi to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1894, for all papers and correspon-
dence in connection with the establishiu^nt of a government cattle ranche near Kort Macleod,
North-west Territories, including the purchase of cattle for said ranche ; the disixisal of said cattle,
and th, management and disposition made of said ranche. Also a statement showing the amount
of moneys paid for cattle placed uiM)n said ranche, and for all other expenses incurred in connec-
tion with the same, also the total amount of moneys received for the sale of cattle from said
ranche, and all other sources in connection with the same ; which statement shall show the balance
14
6S/,.
6Sc.
6S(/.
57-68 Victoria.
List of Sessional Papers.
A. 1894
1, 18it4,
or any
^al•^ison
the late
18))2 ;
mid any
dationt)
there ti.,
d death
printed
rrt'spon-
lacleod,
d cattle,
aiiiount
connec-
[)in isaid
balance
VOLUME n— Continued.
to the credit or debit of Haid raiiche on the KrHt day of January last, and Hhall furtlier give the
naine!4 of all parties indebted to said ranche atc<)\int for cattle piirchaHe<l or for any other projierty
or material, witli the anionnt due from each of «aid partieM, if any. Presented 2nd May, 1S!M. -
Mr. Charlton Not lyrinteil-
•7. Ketiu'n to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th April, 18!I4, for a return showintf the
amount paid to railways or steamship companies, as a Ihiuuh for briuKiiiK settlers to Manitoba or
the Territories, in 18111, 18i>2 and 18!I,S, and a list of settlers so brought, showing their names and
locations. Presented 11th May, 18i)4.-~A/r. jl/rtrfiH Notprintat.
6M. Return to an order of the House .if Commons, dated .3()th April, 1894, for copies of all conmiunica-
tions received by the minister of agriculture in relation to the establishment of the bureau of
lalxiur statistics for the Dominion. PresentiHl 14th May, 18!)4.- Mr. Lepinr Nnl priiitiil.
OO. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 30th March, 1804, for a return showing the
(|uantity of Ijutter manufactured at the experimental creameries, established at Klgiu an<l W(sxl-
sttK-'k, in the province of Ontario, from the time they were established \ip to the 1st of .January,
1804 ; the numlx-r of sales made ; where sold, and the amounts realised. Copies of all letters,
reports or other corres|K)ndenee, e8|s'cially the rejxjrt of Clement & Son, of (ilasgow, relating to
the prices realized, and the condition of the gissls when put u|K)n the market. The amounts of
money silent, and the different jjurjioses for which the money was use<l. Presented 14th May,
1804.— .Vr. .l/rJ//7/<((i Notprintnt.
yo. Return to an order of the Hoiise of Commons, dated Hoth March, 18!M, for a return showing the num-
ber of homesteads taken up in Manitoba during the years 1802 and 180H, and tin numlwrof home-
steads cancelled in Manitoba duritig said years, in each case showing the municipalities in which
the homesteiwls were located. I*resente<l 18th May, 1804. Mr. Miirtin Nat /irintid ,
71. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 25th April, 1804, for a return showing : 1. The
total numlier of de|«isitors in the Dominion and jxist office savings banks. 2. The numU'r of said
depositors having dejiosits of .?1,(MK» or upwards and the total amount held by them. ;{. The num-
ber having deiM)sits of .95<K) and over, not exceeding S^l.tKH), and the total amount held by them.
4. The number of deiK:sitors having dejiosits of less than ^VH) and the total amount held by them.
.5. The number of deiKisitors not residing in Canada and the total amount held liy them. Pre-
sented 18th May, 1804.— S/r Kirlwnl Cortirriijht Nnt priuliil .
Return to an address of theHou.se of Conunons to his excellency tlie Gove.'nor (ieneral, dated 7tli
May, 1804, for a copy of the order in council authorizing the sale of lot Ki, concession 12, township
of Luther, in the county of Wellington, for $800 to .John McXab and .Tolin ( iallivgher. Presented
22nd May, 1804.-.U;-. McMullni Nut priiitnl.
Supplementary return to no. 72. Presented 14th .Tune, 1804. - Mr. .Mc. Mullen Not priiilrd.
Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 30tli March, 1804, for a leturn showing the sums
of money paid to Mr. A. F. WcmxI, government valuator, for services, ninintenance and trans|s)rt
during the yeiirs 1891-I802-180.S, and the particidar pieces of land or other pro|)erty valued during
those years. Presented 2;tr(l May, 1H04.— .)/r. .McMiilhn. Not /iriiilnt.
Return to an address of the House of Conniions to his excellency the < iovernor (ieneral, dated Kith
April, 1804, for copies of all orders in council in force in Canada (provinces of Lower Canada and
Up|)er Canada) in 18,')8, concerning any ilrawba(;k or bounty with res|)ect to the building of
Canadian ships, banpies and othiT vessels; and also all orders in council amending the same, or
concerning the same from 18,08 >ip to the beginning of the confederation. Presented 23rd May,
1804. - Mr. A iiiiiot Not printed .
74(1. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, dated loth
A](ril, 1804, for copies of all orders in coimcil fnnii the origin of confefleration \ip to the year 1870,
inclusive, respecting any drawback or Ixmnty with res|x)ct to the building of Canadian shiiw,
barciues or other vessels. Presented 30th May, 1804. — Mr. Am/iot Not print) il
75. Return to a > order of the House of Commons, dated 7th May, 1804, for copies of all calls for tenders,
tenders received, contracts made, corresiiondence, telegrams, letters and pa|H>rs relative to the
public vvork (wharf or breakwater) at Grand Ktang, Ca|ie Hreton ; U)gether with a statement of
all moneys advanced or paid on such contract, with dates of (layment. Presented 20th May, 1804.
—Mr. iJariea Not printed.
15
7«.
7!e>(
7».
74.
57-68 Victoria.
List of Sessiona! Papera.
A. 1894
VOLUME n— Continued.
7Sii, Ketuni tn an order nf the IIouMf of CoiiininnH, (lat<-(l Oth February, lMt)8, for ropieH (if all lettem,
|ietitiiiiiH, HtirveyH and re|iortH in the iioHMeHHion of the );overniiient, relating to the threntene<l deH
triiction of, and clainiH for, re|>airM un the breakwater at Snmlford, in the ixtunty of Yarmouth,
X.S. I'rexented 2Stth May, \H'M.- .Ur. Flint ...Not />rinte(l.
7Hli. Return to an onler of the HoUNe of ConiniimH, date<l Oth February, 18!t3, for copy of the re|Kirt of
government Hurveyn on Wood iHhtnd bnsakwater, F.K.I. FreHentfnl 2!>th May, 18U4. ~ .l/r. Wihh.
Not /irhifed.
Tile. Keturii to an ortler of the HouHe of ConimonK, tlate<l 1,5th March, 18!l,1, (or copieH of all re|Kirti), eor-
resiKindence or other documentH, not alreatly brought down, relating to the Htate of re|iair of the
breakwater at Himtico, P.K.I. Fresentwl IKlth May, 1H!M. .l/c. Inii-kt. Not i>r Intnl.
7!lil. Return to an order nf the Houm<' of CominouH, dated Int M-irch, 1S!I3, for a Htatement showinft ; 1.
Wluit \s the total Kuni H|)ent by the i^ivernment Hince confedenttiiMi in each province of the Dom-
inion on the public workn claHsitied HH (1) harUmrH, pierH unil breakwaters, (2) improvements of
rivers, and (3) dredging' and dredges. 2. How nuich of the sinn s<i s|)ent in the province of (^ue-
liec wiiN ex|)ended on works within the harbour of Montreal. 3. (1) How much money the govern-
ment has loaned to the harbour commissioners of t^ueliec towards the constructirm of the new
luirUiur works in that city ; and (2) what .tn ount of interest, derive<l fnim the revenues of the
said works, have the harlniur conunissioners paid to the government in res|)ect of the interest due
III! the said loans ; and (3) liow many years' interest, if any, are in arrears. -1. (1) How much
money the government has lent to the liarlnnir commissioners of Montreal towards the construc-
tion of harlKiur works in that city ; and (2) how nnich interest is due thereon. Fi-esented 12th
.luly, 18!M.— Jl/r. lyepiiif Nut )irintul.
75c. Return liii part) to an order of the House of Commonfi, date<l .SOtli March, IWM, for a return giving
the total cost of the Cockburn island wharf and dock (lake Huron) ; the name of tlw contra(;tor or
contractors ; the date of its completion ; the numlier of sailing vessels tliat have called ; the quan-
tity of freight im|K)rted and exisirted since its completion ; the numlx^r of steamers that made
during the season regular calls at the wharf since its completion. Presented 12th .luly, 18!t4. -,1/r.
McAfiilIrn Not priiittd.
76. Return to an order of the House of Commons, date<l 14th May, 18!t4, for copies of all letters, re|Mjrt8
of engineers or other ]ia|ierg in the hands of the government relacing to the condition of the
Pickets pier and the n()n-exi)enditiire thereon of the sum voted last year for the puriwse of repair-
ing said pier. Presented 2((th May, 18114. Afr. Hiirdrn Not priiitiil.
77. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, date<l 18th April, 18U4, for a statement of all sum*
paid by the government for the construction of the river Yamaska dam, under the first contract and
subsequently thereto up to this date. Presented 211th May, 181I4.- Afr. Ltiiiriir Not )irintnl.
77(1. Return to .in onler of the House of Commons, dated 2nd May 18!(2, for copies of re|«>rt of any in-
(|uiry held under the authority of the department of publ'c works with a view to estimate the
losses inflictefi on projirietors of the connnime of ^'aniiiska, by the erection of .1 dam in the
Yamaska river. Presented 4tli .Tune, 18it4.— .Ur. lyoitrirr Not i>riiiti<(.
776. Return to an luldress of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, datetl
•StJtli March, 18!(4, for copies of all letters, papers and statements in connection «itl'. award-
ing contract to William H. Davis it Sons for constructing a dam at Sheik's island, in connection
with the Cornwall canal. Presented oth iJune, 18H4. — Afr. Chiirlton Not printed.
77c Supplementary return to no. 77<<. Presented 15th June, 1894. — Alr.ChnrUon Not /irintrd.
7W. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the (iovernor (Jeneral, dated lOth
April, 1894, for copies of all petitions, letters, jiluns, deeds and other doc\niients res|)ecting
the claim of the Hurons of Lorette in relation to the seigniory of Sillery. Presented 2!lth May,
IH'.H.- Afr. Fremont Not printed.
70. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 10th April, 1894, for a return showing the
amount of timl)er dues collected at Quebec for each year for th" last ten years. The (|uantity of
timber culled each year, and the wages paid to cullers and staff. Presented 30th May, 1894.— .!//•.
AfcAfuUen Not printed.
16
A. 1894
67-58 Victoria.
List of SesBioiial Papers.
A. 1894
•H l)( all IcttWH,
tlirentciiHl (|hh
' of Variiioiith,
. . Not /irinlfd.
i)f tilt' ri'|Mirt of
\)4.-Mr. W,hh.
Not /trinled.
nil rfiHirtH, cor-
)f reimir of the
. . . \iit /iriiitrtl.
t Hhowiiiff : 1.
c<" (if the Doni-
ii|>riiv)'iiii-ntH of
•ovincf of l^uf-
iiey tlic)(overn-
ioii of the new
•■veiuien of tin-
he inttrcNt (hit»
(1) How iiiucli
I tile cotiHtrtic-
PlfMCIltcd 12tli
. . Nut /irintid,
1 rt'tiirn givitiK-
" coiitratitor or
l«cl ; tli« qiiitn-
TK timt imido
ly, 18!M. -JA/-.
. . JVof /iriiitxt.
'ttcr.s, rf|)ort8
iiilition of tlie
)Osi' of repair-
A'ot priiiti'tl.
of all sums
contract and
Nut /irhitdl.
of any in-
■stimati) thf
(lam in the
A'lit iiriiited.
■iK'ial, dated
" id; award-
1 connpccion
Hot printcil.
Not /iriiitnl.
dated l(»th
r(^f|)ecting'
2!ltli May,
Viit printed.
howing the
luantity of
IHiM.-.l/r.
Vut printed.
VOLUME n—Continued.
79n. R<<tnrn to nn order of the MoiiHe of OominonH, datcil 10th April, 1S!M, for a return Hhowing the
(|uantity of tinilier that luiHHcd throuKli the eulleiH' liaixU and was c\ill«d each year at Montreal,
for the liiHt ten yearn. The amount of feeH colltK-ted for eatili year durih)? the Hanie (M'riod, and tho
amount of wajfes paid to the cullers and Htaff at Ntontreal for the same time. I'resented HOth May,
1H!)4.— .1//-. MeMiilhn. Nut printed.
79b. Return to an order of the HouHe of Conimons, dat»!d 7th May, 18U4, for a return hhowing ; 1. How
nnich tiniher has lieen diHiK)Med of in townships 1, 2, 3 and 4, in ranjfes 14, l!>, 10 and 17, east of
the 1st princijial meridian, and also on the Whitemouth river. 2. To whom said timlHT has iH'en
dis|K(sed of. S. In what way said tinilH'r has l)e»m disp<j(ied of. 4. Prices reali/.ed for same. 5.
Copies of alt advertisenients in connection with same, with names of newspa|M'rs in w hich same
ap|H-ared and dates of insertion. <i. How much timlier still remains undiH|M)se<i of in said town-
ships. I'resented 2itth , Tune, l«!»4.—iVr. .V(/r<(;i Nut printed.
70c. Return to an onler of tho House of CommonB, date<l ZTith April, 1H!I4, for a statement of all timber
licenses granted since .January Ist, 18M7, showinf; the datt! of each grant, the location, the area of
the same, the nante of the grant*"*', the iKmus, if any, paid u|K)n thi^ same, whether disisisedof:
((() At public auction duly ivdvertised, wliert^ the rjublic were invited to c(in.i>et.'. (/■) At auction
where only applicants for the lierth or limit were invited to bid. (r) j{y private ai>plication.
((f) If in neither of the ways above mentioiuKl, then stating in what way dis|H>sal and grant was
made. (( ) Length of public notic*' 'n each case when limits were sold either at piiblic auction or
by other form of public com|M'tition. Also a summary statement giving total area granted and
total an;ount of Isinuses received. I'resented 12th .Tuly, 18!t4. — Mr. (.'hiir/ton Not printed.
♦*0. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 2Sth May, 1S94, for copies of all corresisnidence
l)etween 1). J. Hughes, Kstj., county judge of Klgin, Out., and tim officials of the government
printing office, in regard to the jirinting of the last revised vot«'rs' list for Klgiii. Presented 4th
>Iune, 18!I4. — Mr. C'lii ii Nut printed.
**l. Return to an order of House of the Connnons, dated 14th May, 1H!I4, for a return showing tho
aniximt and value of ciucible ste<'l iniiH>rted into Canada free of duty in each year sinct^ 18H5,
under the provisiims of order in council of (ith Novemln'r, 1885. Also amount and value of last-
ings and mohair cloth im|Hirted into Canada free of duty in each ye.ir since 18H,"), under the pro-
visions of order in cfiuncil of (ith November, 1885. I'lesented 4th .fiuie, 18',I4. — Mr. ('hdr/lnn.
Nut printed.
**lr(, Ret\ini to an order of the House of Commons, dated 14th May, 18!)4, for a return sliowing the
am.mnt and vahie of hatters' luiuds, bindings, tips, and sides and linings, Uith tips and sides,
iniiK)rteJ into Canada in each year since 1885, uiuler provisions of order in council of 5tii .hily,
188(). Also amount and value of steel strip for buckthorns and plain strip fencing imported into
Canada free of duty since 1885, under jirovisions of order in council of 17th .Tuly, 188(1. Also
amount and value of wire ro|H' im|M)rted into Canada free of duty since 188.5, under provisions of
order in council of 17th .Tuly, 188t). Also amount and value of twisted brivss and co|>|K'r wire im-
|X)rted into Canada free of duty since 18.S.5, under jirovisions of order in council of 20th .Inly, 188(!.
Also amo\int and value of y.irn spun from the hair of the alpaca or angora goat, im|Kirted into
Canada free of duty since 1885, under provisions of order in council of 18th XovemlMT, 18vSr(.
Presented 4th .Time, 18'.»4. — .1/r. Charlton Not printed.
H\h. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 14tli May, 18!>4, for a return showing the
(juantity and value of felloes of hickory W(kh1 imixirted into Canada in each year free of duty since
1887, under pnivisions of order in conned (jf IGth Novemtxr, 18,88. Also (piantity and value of
homo spring steel wire, smaller than no, 1) and not smaller than no. 1,5, imiKirted into Canada free
of duty in each year since 1887, for the use of numufactui-ers of mattresses, imder provisions of
order in council of (ith I)eceml>er, 1888. Presented 4th .Tune, 1804, — Mr. (Viarlton. . . .N^ot printed.
81c. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, date'l 14th May, 18114, for a return showing the v.alue
of sweat leathers impot'tiKl into Canada free of duty in each year since 188(1, undiT provi.'^ions of
order in council of Ist .Inly, 1887. Also the valut! of sq\iare reeds, rawhide centres, textile leather
or rubber heads, thumbs and tips, and steel, iron or nickel caps for whip ends imiKjrted into
Canada free of duty in each year sinc(,' 188(!, under provisions of order in council of .Tuly 2nd, 1887.
Also value of copper rollers for use in calico printing im|iorted into Canada free of duty in each
year since 188G, under ]>rovi8ions of order in covuicil of 22nd November, 1887. Also (luantity and
2 n
67-68 Victoria.
List of iSeseional Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME n— Continued.
valiio uf 8t<«>l (if no. 12 Kt^uge and down to no. 'M giiiiKu iniiNirtiMl int4> Cana<lu fm- of duty in i<ach
yclir ttinco 188", undor iiruviNionH of order in cuiineil of lltli Jidy, 1HH8. AImo <|imritity and viilue
of yarns, of W(k>I and worHtcd, ini|H)rt<vl into (y'ltniula frin- of duty for uho of iniinufaeturorH in cavh
year Hinuu 18H7, luider proviHionH of order in uouncil of lltli .hily, 1H8H. Almi i|uantity and valuo
of jutu yarn, cotton yarn finer than no. 40; and wire of iron or Hteel, galvani/.i-«l or tinned, or
uo|i|N'red, or not, of no. Itt gauge or Mnmller, ini|Kirted into Canada fr if duty in eiicli year Kinco
1887, under provimons of order in council of llth July, 1888. I'reKented 4th June, 18!I4. Mr.
Vliiirlton A^ol /iriiitnl.
8S. Ketiini to an onler of the HoUHe of CommouH, dated 2r)th April, 1HII4, for copieM of all cimipluintH
made by one Ktienne Trenililay, wince l«t Novenil)er, 18tt3. againut •lom-pii I'lacicU' Koclieleaii,
[KiHtniBHter of I'auline, in tlie c< unity of Kouville, V.il. ; aiirl of tliere|Kprtof the|i<iHt<ittice iiiHiiector
who in(|uired into Haid complaint, or of any other official cliarged witli hucIi in(|uiry. I'reHeiitwl
5th June, 1804.— .Vr. /VoAc«c Not printed.
88. Return to an order of the lIcniHeof Ciiinmon», dated 2'<tli May, 18{)4, f<ir a return giving the nanius
of tlie junior judgcH in tlie province of Ontario and datCH when ap|Hiinted, the name and |iopu-
latiou of the county to which ap|Hiinted, alito tlie luilary and allowance of each of hucIi jutlgi-H.
rivKcnted 5th June, 18!t4.-.l/r. Lintir Hot iirintal .
94. Return to an address of the House of Couunons to his excellency the Governor (lenoral, dated "tli
May, 1H!M, for copies of all letteis, proiKwals, calilegrams and corres|H>nilence since the 1st of
January, 18!H(, U'tween the government and any member thereof and any person, linn or com|iany
in relation to establishing a fast .Atlantic steamship line U'tween (.'unada an<l (ireat liritain, and
also a line Is'tween C'aua<la an<l France, ond in i-cK-vtion to the subsidies for such services ask-.'d for
tir proiKised to U' given by the government, and any draft or completed contracts for such steamship
service. Presented tltli .Tune, 18i(4. - .1/r. .Uii/wA- I'riiil>tl for ilUlriliutinn uiilii.
(t4a. Supplementary return to no. 84. Presented 2*Jtli June, 18U4.-
-Mr. Mnlm-k:
Printed fur dittribution oiilii.
S4t. Further supplementary return to no. 84. Presented 5th July, 1804.— iVr. MiiUirk.
Printed for diftribution onlii.
US. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated Ctli
February, 1803, for copies of all corre8|Kindence, |ia|iers and documents, not already laid before the
house, in reference to negotiations anti commimications between the goveniment and the United
.States, in reference to reciprocity, canal tolls and wrecking and towing. Presented llth .Tune,
1804.— .V/'. 7'm(/((/p Not printed.
86. Return to an luldress of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 30th
March, 1804, for copies of all corn's] londence, instructions, orders in council and reix>rta about the
lioundary line between Alaska and British Columbia not already laid before this house. Presented
llth June, 1804. — Sir Hector Liinyevin Xot printed.
87. Retiini to an order of the House of Commons, dated 7th May, 1804, for a return showing in detail all
sums of money in the hands of the government held oa security for the |ierformance of contracts
LHimpleted, the name of each contractor who deixisited the money, date of each such deposit, and
amount of interest accrued on each dejxMiit. Presente<l llth June, 1804. — Mr. Lister. .Not printed.
88. Return to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 30th
March, 1804, for a return of all corres|)ondence, telegrams, rejiorts to council, orders in council, or
departmental orders or instructions relative to the employment of certified captains or mates on
steamers plying in the waters or ferries of the Dominion, or to the running of such steaniers or
ferries without such cajitains or mates. Presented 10th .Tune, 1804.— .Vr. Daviea Not printed.
89. Return to an luldress of the House of Commons to his excellency the Governor General, dated 14th
May, 1804, for copies of all correspondence between the minister of railways and the Rev. A. E.
Burke and others having reference to the moving of the flag station from Mill river, on the Prince
Edward Island Railway, to Howlan road, and all telegrams and documents having reference to the
same, as well as all (Xititions, etc., against the removal of said flag station. Presented 19th June,
1894.— Jtfr. Perru Not printed.
18
67-58 Victoria.
List (tf Sossionul Papers.
A. 1894
VOLUME n~^Continued.
•O. Kctiirii to un addruHH of tlio llouHtt of r'niniiioiiH to IiIh *>xc)'ll<'iu'y tlif (iovi-nior (!<-ncrnl, dutitl 7th
May, 1S!M, for cupifH of nil <'orrfN|Miiiilt>iici' UawtTii .1. M. WriKht, M.I)., VS., unil the ffovrrn
liKiiit, or iiiiy iik'IiiImt, ilrpurtiiii'iit or ottii-cr of tin- (fovcriiiiK'Ht, iiiul of iill corn'KiHiinli'iiff U'twcH
tlif (Jraiul Trunk Uailway ami tlio govrniiiifiit, or any ini'mlx-r, (if|iartuii'nt or ottin-r of the ({ov-
frnnifnt, and of all corrftiHimU'iicr lpft\vf<Mi Mr. A. liruxli and tin- (jovi-rnnii'nt, or any ini'inU-r,
de|iartin<'Mt or otticiT of tlif goMTiinitait, anil of all corri'K|Kindi'nc»' l>t'tw<'«'n tin- ini|i<'rial aiitho-
riti«'», or any out- on tlii-ir U'lialf, and tlif (fovfrnnifnt of (^aniicla, or any nicnilM'r, df|iartMifiit or
ofticfr tlifrfof, from, and including, tlif yfar IXX'J until, and iiiclndinK. tlif yfar IH!»1, rf^'ardiiiK
tin- insiH'ction of cattif iiansinK tlirougli Caiiiula from tlif I'nitfd Statfs. Pri-HfiUfd 21i<t •lunt>,
ISIM. Mr. Afii/iick . . . I'rinlnl fur ft minntil /Kipt r» utilii.
91' Kfttirn to an ordfr of tlif lloime of CoinnionH, datf<l Kith April, 1NII4, for a rftiirii Hlmwintf all landH
allottf<l to Half lirffds in Manitolia for whifli paffuts liavf not Iicj'H inKUfd, (fiviii>f aloiiff with
n dfitcription of tlif land, tlu- iiunif of tin* allottuf and tlif rfawms why tlif patfiit liax not iM'fti
ixHiifd. IVfHfiiti'd 21st .Jiiiif, W.\\.—Mr. Murtiii ynl jirinltil.
0S. Kfturn to an ordfr of tlif llou»f of Commons, datfd 21»t .May, 1H!I4, for a rfturn of the ordfr,
ininiitf or dirfction uutliori/.iii); tlif collfi'lor of uustoniH at WiHMlHtook, Ont., to admit fri\' of duty
Cfrtain (jikhIs connistinn of vfHtmfiit» or other fhiirfli articlfs for tin- uw of tint Roman I'atliolio
cIiuitIi ;it WiKKlHtiK.'k, coiiHiKni'd to tlin KfVfrfiid Kutlifr liracly, of WcMidstiM-k, in the niontli of
Kfliniary, 18'.I4. 1. Tlif dfcinion U|Min wliirli tlu- collfctor ai'tfd in admittiiiK "Ufli (^(hkI.h frff of
duty. 2. All corrfs|K)iidfmf liftwffii tlif controUfr of fiiHtoms or otiifr ihtsoii in tlif ilfpartinfiit
of fUdtoms Tflating tlifrfto. H. Copifs of tlif li ttfi'x .md i'orrf>|Min<lfiiff wliirli pas.sfd iM'twcfti
thf KfV. .1. C. KartliiiiK, of VVcniclstofk, and the fniitroUtr of custoniK, witli iiffi-fiiff to tlif
admiHsiiin of xiii'li Koods and tlif allf);fd iinfairncKs with which .Mr. Farthing had U'fii tifatfd on
till- im|xii'tation liy him of a siipilar cla^s of ^oimIh fur the iw of the Auf^lif an church at W(Hid»tock,
of which lif is rector. 4. And if duty has since Ikh-u exactini u|K>n the said articles, or any of
tlifiii. It copy of the entry or minute in respfct thereto and the amount of iliity paid thfi-eon.
I'lfsfiilfd 21lth .fiiiif, WM.- Mr. MrVurthii Xot i,ri,il,il.
08. Kfturn to an ordrr of the Hoiisf of Commons, datfd "tli May, 1S!I4, fora return showing the names
of all |M'rsons ap|Hiintfd to act as what are known as rfturn-ui'-n, in coniifction with immigration
work, thf pericHl duriiiff which fiich worked, thf .imount of iiioiu<y paid to each, the nanifs of the
settlers liio'ight to Canada liy each return-man, and the places in which such settlers were located.
AIm) statement showing what arniugenients are made with these return-men. Presented 2!tth
June, IH'M. Mr. Martin Nat jirinUd.
•4. Return to an order of the House of Commons, dated 2Htli May, 1H04, for a return showing the date un
which the steamer "Stanley" commenced running Ix-tweeii Charlottetown, I'.K.I, and Pictou,
N.S. ; the date said st»!amer commenced running In'tween (ieorg"town, P. K.I. .and Pictou; how
many trips were made ; the date of each trip ; how many mail bags were carried each trip ; the
date at which said steamer stopixid carrying mails ; the numlKT of passengers and the amount of
freight carried to and from Prince Kdward Island; the amount of ex|>en8es and revenue for the
winter 18il3-it4, in connection with said service. Presenteil 2'Jth June, 18!»4.— jtfr. I'trnj.
Not printrd.
04a. Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the Oovernor General, dated the 14th June,
18!I4, for a statement giving in detail the days, during the month of .January, February, March
and April last, on which the steamer " Staidey " crosse<I lietween Prince Kdward Island and the
mainland, such statemtrnt to show separately the days on which the said steamer made single and
return trips, and also the ports of departure from either side. Also for a statement covering tlio
same |)eriod, giving in detail the days on which the government ice-boats crossed lietween Ca|ie
Traverse and CajK' Tonnentine, such statement to show separately the days on which single ond
return trips were made. Also for a statement giving in detail the days during the same (icriod on
which no mails were conveyed from the mainland to Prince FIdward Island, and from Prince
Edward Island to the mainland. Presented 6tli July, lSS4.—Hon. Mr. Fenjumn {(Queen's, P.E.I.)
Not jrrintcU.
•5. Return to an address of the Senate to his excellency the Governor General, dated 19th June, 18!t4,
for a copy of the rejxjrt made on the 5th May, 1891, by Sir Douglas F'ox, regarding the proiiosed
tunnel under the Straits of Northumberland, without the plans. Also coiiies of rejKjrts on the
same subject by Mr. F'rancis Bain, dated the 9th and 18th of December, 1890, and the 14th March,
1891. Presented 6th July, 1894.— flon. Mr. FeniHion (Queen's, P.E.I,)
Printed- for seisiona/ papers only.
19
67-68 Victoria.
List of Sessional Pu[)erd.
A. 1894
VOLUME n~Continued.
M. Ri'tiirn to itii nilrlr(>Hi< of thn lloiiiw of ConimoiiH to \m I'xcfllt-ncy tho CSovernor Oi>m-ral, dntnl 27th
April, IH'.CJ, for cupifH cf all ciirrfK|Mni(li'mf, iiietnoriulH, ilt'imrtinintiil nnlcrt nml ordiTH in council,
rcHiMH'linx or in any wiiy r<-littin)( to tin* ri'inoviil of the i'X|Nirt ihity from KiiwIogH nnd other iin-
niuinifiiL'tureil hinilwr i-xiiortwl from Cana<la to th<> Unito<l Stat«H, rrenMitoH iith tinly, 1H1H.—
Mr. RUitr Nat priiiird,
07. Ki-tiirn to an onliT of thf Houh)> of Comnionn, ilat«-<l Itth May, lHtl2, for a copy of thi< ri'iMirt of the
inHiHH'tor of ciiHtoniH, Nova Mootiii, in n-fcrcncf to th« cHtaliliMhrncnt of a |K)rt of entry at Whyco-
comaKli, in tin- county of Invtrni'SM. I'rewntfd '.ttli iluly, IH'.M. ,Vi*. ('nmirnn ^nt /iriiifctl.
07(1. Return to an order of the lloUHe of ('oinnionx, (late<l !)th May, 1H<J2, for a copy of t)ie reiM)rt of the
inNpeetor of cUHtoinn, Nova Scotia, in n-fen'nce to the eHtahliHiinient of a jMirt of entry at Went
B»y, in the county of InvernenM. Prenented 14th .July, IH'.M.— Afr. Comrnm Not /irinted.
08. Return to an addn-HH of the House of ConunonM to hii4 excelh-ncy the (rovenior (lereral, dated l!4th
•lune, IStM, f<ir a rctt.rii of all char^eit, complaintH, letters, telegraiuH, correM|Hindeiice, re|M)rtB or
orderh relative to the diHinixNal or removal of .John McLiimI an inN|iector of tlie repaint of the Broad
Cove Marxh pier, Ca|M' Breton. PrcHented I'ith .July, 1M1)4.— .Vr. Jtiirim Nut printid.
00. Return to an addrexH of the l(ouiu> of ConinionH to his excellency the (iovernor (ieneral, date<l 25th
April, 18!t4, for the priKluction of all <)rder>t in council, corrj-Himndence, inKtrnctioiiM to otticeni of
the departnu-nt of public workn, and re|«)rt« of mucIi otticerH resin-cting the improvement of St.
Andr«w'M rapiiirt in the Red river of the North. l're.iented 12th .July, IH'.M. — .'/ •. Afiirtin.
Nut priatfd.
100. Return to <in address of the House of Connuons to his ex<-elleucy tlii' (lovenii "neral, dated 6th
February, IH!!,"}, for copies of all orders in council now in force rejfulatintj tin; m .^'hterinjif of swine
for ex|M)rtation in bond, passed under authority of an act resin-cting customs, cap. .32, Revised
Statutes, sec. il3 ; and for a copy of the (|iiarantine ref^ulations governiuff the importation of Buoh
8winu into Canada for tlut pur|io84' of slaughtering in Imnd. Presented 14th July, 1H!M. — Mr.
Smith (Oiitiirio. ) Nat printed.
101. Return to an oriler of the House of Commons, dati'<i 28th May, 1H!M, for a detailed rejiort showing
the pri/.es awarded by the judges or jury at the Chicago Columbian ex)Mmition for the work of
pupils of primary and s|M'cial scIkhMs of every kind and degree, and also to pupils of secondary
educational institutions of each of tho provinces of Canada. Presented 14th .July, iM't. — Mr,
Larhiij^ile J'riiitid for mtnioniil /*(/« r,t nnli/.
lOtl. Return to an order of tlu- Hf)UHe of Commons, dated 21st May, 1894, for list of i)ersonB in Manitoba
who have not as yet repaid the loans made to them, in or about the year 1H7C, for seed-grain, etc.,
with statement of the amount owing by ejvch |)»!rson and the interest claimed, up to 1st .January,
1894, on each such amoiuit. Also a list, showing the amounts of mortgages received as collateral
secnuity for each loan, with description of land mortgaged, with name of proprietor and name of
Ixjrrower if he be another persoji. Presente<l 18th -luly, IS'.)4.— -Mr. LdRiviire Not printed,
108. Return to an order of the House of Conunons, dated 28th May, 1894, for : 1. A statement showing
the (piantitius of distilled and fermenti'd liquors, under the different names as given in the trade
returns, im|x)rted into and taken for consumption in Cana<la, from 1883 to 1893, both years
incbuled, computed in imperial gallons ; the value of the same, anJ ♦he duty jmid thereon. 2. The
quantity of distilled and fermented liquors, imder the different names given in the inland revenue
returns, manufactured in Canada and taken for cons\nn|»tion therein ; the value of the same, and
the duty paid thereon for the same years. 3. The amount of materials useil in brewing and dis-
tilling alcoliolic li(iuors in the stweral provinces of Canada during the same years. Presented 19th
•July, 1894.— iVr. Flint Not printed.
104. Return to nn order of the House of Commons, date<l 28th May, 1804, for a statement showing the
number of breweries, distilleries and maltsters' establishments in Canada in the year 1891 ; the
amoiuit of capital investe<l therein ; tlm value of the output ; the amount of wages |)aid ; number
of employees, and the revenue derived therefrom. Presented 19th July, 1894. — Mr. Flint.
Not printed.
105. General statements and returns of baptisms, marriages and burials in the districts of liellechasse,
Chicoutimi, Uasin', Kamouraska, L'Islet, Montmagny, Ottawa, and Saguenay. Presented 20th
.Tuly, 1894, by Hon. Mr. Sjteaker Not printed.
.lOO. Rj'turn to an address of the House of Commons to his excellency the Goveynor General, dated 4th
.Tune, 1894, for copies of all corresjxmdence, ]>etitions and memorials in relation to the reduction or
abolition of the duties on Canadian tobacco, or in relation to any ]X)ssible changes in the inland
revenue laws in that behalf. Presented 23rd July, 1894.— Afr. Brodeur Not printed,
20
A. 1894
il, iliiti<l 27th
iTH ill council,
iiiiil (itlior tin-
•liily, IHIM.—
Nut firiiilnl.
ri'iHirt (if the
■y lit Whyoo-
. JVo< jiriiited,
roixirt of the
itry lit WoHt
. Not jirintrd.
I. (Iittxil 18th
■»', rt'iKirtB or
of th<! Broad
Not /irintfd.
I, dated 2rith
to otficprs of
iiinnt of St,
rtin.
Nut printiiL
il, dutt'd Gth
'ing of swine
32, RcviBed
tion of such
mM.—Mr.
Not /irintrd.
nrt Nhowin^
the work of
f Mi'condury
lH>.'i.-Mr.
iMi/Hrg (in/j/.
1 Manitoba
(fruin, etc.,
it .lanuary,
8 collateral
id name of
fot printed.
nt showing
1 the trade
both years
n. 2. The
lid revenue
same, and
ig and dia-
eiited 10th
'ot printed.
lowing the
1891 ; the
I ; number
nt.
ot printed.
t'llechaase,
nted 20th
)< printed.
dated 4th
duction OP
he inland
it printed.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894
HOVAL C()MM."H8I()N
ON
THE L1QU(JR TRAFFIC
MINUTKS OF KVIDENCE
V'OLu.vu.; III.
HHOVINCKS (IK
MANITOBA. NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES
AND
BRITISH COLUMBIA
I'h'iyTEH HY 0/Wi!h- OF I'AltLlAMKNT.
OTTAWA
I'HINTKI) HV .'S. K. DAW.SON, I'RINTKR TO THK t^LKE.VS .MO.ST
EXCELLENT MAJE.STV
ixr «. 1894
I No. 21— 1894, j
/
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papere (No. 21.)
A. 1894
GENERAL INDEX.
MANITOBA, NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES AND BRITISH COLUMBIA.
AMxitt, Hiiny
Air.l, Al.-x. A
Allen, W. C. M.I) .
Aidagh, Hon. W. I)
Arkle, (icorgc
AtkinHon, ThoH. O. . .
Vancouver
Winni|*ff
Fort Mivulecxl
\Vinni|M't;
Keffiiia
\fw UVstniinstcr.
I'liin, Hon. .Ino. F
liaker. Miss L. Al
Heaven, Kobt
nr^UU', Sir \l. IJ
liell, C.inlon, M.I)
Helyea, A. L
Benson, J. H ,
HettH, J. W., M.LA
ISoisHoan, A. S
Brett, .Tanie.'<
Brett, H. C, M.D
Brown, C. .1
Brown, (Jeortfe \V
liriiwn, ,Tii:nes ,^f,
Brown, J. C, M. 1'. I' \,.w Westmin.ster.
Biirhank, Kil. A VVinniiM's
Winni|M'(f. . . .
I'rinee .\llH'rt
Victoria.
ilo
Bi'undon
Victoria . ....
Regina. . .
Prince Albert. .
Brandon
Banff
rlo
VVinnijieg
Re)<ina ,
Cameron, Duncan R^
Cameron, Rev. Alex. H.
Campbell, (Joorge
Cam|)l)ell, Rev. .Folni
Cayley, Hon. H. Ht. <i ,
gina.
Brandon .
Nanaimo
Victoria. .
Calgary . .
Vancouver ... .
WinnijK'g
Fort Macleod
Wi-.iniiJeg
Regina
NewWestn\in.ster.
Winnipeg
I'rince AUx-i't .
Victoria
do
Brandon
Victoria
Regina. . . ...
Prince Albert
Brandon
Banff
do
VVinni|K3g .
Regina
do
New \Ve»tniinNter.
VVinnifieg
Regina . . . .
Brandon . . .
Nanaimo .
Victoi
Regin
(i24
n\
(W
24!»
ri!)4
(io
.(•Jl
\m
4!»4
17'.'
r.42
•239
311
215
448
451
itl
;«3
256
(!02
134
;«)!»
1%
.170
537
235
Genei-al Index.
N'aiiit'
Ucsiilfiicc.
I'lllC.'
Fort \Vnin(felI, Alaska .
Brandon
where Evidence
token.
Victoria .
Brandon.
Moose Jaw i Regina.
Victoria Victoria
!
Banff
Brandon
Vancouver
Banff
Brandon ....
jVancouver. .
Cho<meite, Ale.\
Clement, Stephen . .
ColpittH, Knoch
Conil)es, Rev. .7. K
Conners, Thoina.s
OcK)|»>r, 1). H ....
CoiK', Fred
Cordingley, C. H WinniiM^j^ \Viinii|K'(;.
Costigan, Henry A i do | do
Costigan, Jolm R jCalgary jCalgary
Cotton, John | Prince Albert j Prince AUiert
I 1
Coutlet-, li. W Winnipeg !Winni|)eg. ...
Creamer, James Kegina Pegina
Cunningham, Mr.s. M New WeHtniinster New Westniin.stei .
OnthlMTt, A. Ro,ss
Daniels, K.'v. S ...
Davis, T. *> . . ..
Davies, Joshua
Uevine, .lohn
Dick, Frank
Donaldson, Sam. J .
Dowling, Thos
Dowler, \V. J
Drake, Samuel
Drury, Kdwa^d f,. .
Dnunmond, H. .\1 . .
Dykes, Andifvv . . . .
Calgary .
Calgary .
Brandon Brandon.
Prince .\ll«'rt
Victoria . . .
Vancouver. .
Calgary . . . ,
Prince AHmtu.
Calgary .
. . . . Prince .Mliert.
....Victoria
Vancouver. . .
. . Calgaiy
Prince AUhtI
. . , Calgai>-
Kddv, William P.
Knglisli, 'riioniiis,
Kvans, Rol)ert .
Victoria Victoiia .
Nanaimo iNanaimo.
Winni|>eg WinniiK'g.
do do
do do
Regina
Calgary ....
Fort MacliKKl
Regina
Calgai >•
Fort .Macleod
Ferguson, Jolin J Banff
Ferguson, Wm Brandon
F«'rre, M WinmiH-g
FiBher, I. B New Westminster.
iv
Banff
Brandon
Wiiini|K'g
New Westminster.
.'Wo,
Place.
ri2it
20*!
345
547
444
103
(ilU
150
14
3!I8
283
S«
340
rH»s
3!t7, 4(12
1«S
323
r)0!i
ti4li
374
274
3(iH
47<i
552
32
'.14
117
.%«»
370 ,
415
44!)
UW
142
(i05
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I'lacu.
52!)
20(i
345
547
444
li»3
(ilO
150
14
840
008
.'Wr), 3it7, 4(12
188
m
m
04U
W4
974
Sfl8
478
S6S
32
04
117
XillllC.
I|i'«irl('iic<'.
l''i)rK<-t, A. K.
( Rpginii .
I'liicc wlipiv Kvidciifd
taken.
Rejfina
( JiiK'Uon, Sfvi'-re ' ,]„
(ianlt, (Jecrg.. K WinniiH'g.
(iilli'spic, 1). H
[Prince AllMTt. . . .
|Wiiuii|ii'{,'
RcK'na Kfffiiui
""^'^'"""''' Ixanai.no 'xanaimo
"'"■''""' ^'- '* Regina !Regi„a
(iralM.rnf. Chris. |[ AVinniiK^K
""""•'^^' ,l'rinc,.All,..rt
; Victoria
i
: <io ... .
I ""
Fort ^[ilc•ll■()(i
Hiill, Krnest, .M.I)
Hall, Lewis
Hall, R. H
Hatiiiltiin, Rev. (i
i
M;uMn„.,sl..y, Alf. St. (i ; Vuncouv,.,-
"■"•'"■'•. '''n'Mk ...JianflF
""'■^•■>' •''"""- llmlianH™,!....
Hii.slcni, Andrew
Hendeisdn, W'ni. , . :, .
Herclnnei', L. W
Heswm. I". H
Hilton, Fiev. Doiialil . .
. . . lAanainiii. ...
. . . Regina
I'rince .Vlbert.
. . .Iliranilon
. |Kort Macleofj
ll(Kl<ler, Kdward .
Hiillie.i, .lolin
Hdiieyiimn, .lolm It. ('
HniiglitDn, Tlionia.s . .
HoMstuii, Win
HuKliill, 1.. !•'
lliMulier, .Mdi-iis
Inkster, Coli
(^vlgaiy
Fort .\laelend
Regina
Victoria
New We.si minster
lirandon
Victoria
Fvildonan, .\l;in.
•''"■'^•^^^- "•'<•■ Ml' I Vancouver.
•".•nkin.s Rev. W. H jurandon . .
•'"'"'"'""•''■• C Regina....
•'*''"'"'""• ^^■"' Brandon...
■lordan. (Jeorge A Vancouver.
Winnipeg
I'rince .Mliert.
Victoria
do
do
Fort Macli'od . .
Vancouver
iHanff
iRegina .
Nanainid
Regina
Prince .Mliert. . . .
Hrandon
Fort Macleod
Calgary
Fort Macleoil. . .
Regina
Victoria
Xew We.'^tniinster.
Brandon
Victoria
W
nnupe^'
Vanconxer.
Brandon . .
Regina ....
Biandon . . .
|\'ancouver. .
I'aiCe.
245
29(i
121
34«
558
228, 242
142
m;
50(i
544
48(1, 493
4'JO
(i5t
4;i(»
254
555
2."i!l
2N7
175
412
3711
422
;t5'<
.■>I!t
(i(l<l
1,S!I
IS5
111
(liV!
213
201
195
<il4
General Index.
Nmiif.
Kesi donee.
.Iiikes, K(1 BraiKliiii .
Kcimecly, < !. A., M.I) jFort Macleal .
Kenrick, E. B AViimiiM'g
Kerr, .Ino. H iKegiiia
Killain, Hon. A. C Winnipeg
King, Rev. .T. H IKegina
Kiroaldy, •livniex. Brandon ,
Ijunglcy, John M
LawItT, Patri(!k . .
lieacock, K. P. . . .
Victtiria . . . .
St. Boniface
do
Lenan, Denis V VVinniix'g. .
Liieas, Alex Calgary ■ .
Marsli, (ieiiiye .... do
Mellon, H. .\ Vaneouver.
Millar, .lose) ill K I do
Mook, Ng
Morweloy, Win
Mowatt, Dan., M.Ii..\.
Mulock, W. K.,li.C ...
MacCrae, F
MacdonaI<l, ilnhn A . .
Macdonald, Wi>.. A . . . .
Mackenzie. 0. C
Macline, W. V
.Me.\rthur, Duncan . . -
McCoU, EWnezer . . . . .
McDiarniid, .Ino., M.J>
.Melhmald, Alex
Vietori.i
New Westminster.
Regina
Wiiniipeg
Victoria
Brandon
do
Nanainio
Prince Alb«'rt
Winnijieg
.lo
Brandon
Winnipeg
MeCJregor, W iXanaiino
Place where Evidence
taken.
Brr.ndon .
Fort Macleod.
Winnijieg. . . .
Regina
Winni{)eg
Regina
Brandon
Victoria. . .
WiimiiM'g.
do
do
Ca'gary . . .
do
Vancouver . .
<lo
Victoria
New Westminster. ..
Regina
Winniiieg
Victoria
Brandon
do
Nanaimo ,
Prince Albert
Winni|H'g
do
Brandon
WinniiM'g
iVictoria
Mctiuigun, TliOK. F
Mc(jluigan, W. .1., M.I)
McUuire, Hon. T. H
McKay, Thos.. M.L.A..
Vancouver Vancouver.
do
Princ" AllK'rt.
<lo
do
Prince Alb«>rt. .
do
Page.
2as
419
144
301
145
33(i
10i»
5.%(
87
47
4G
.3(>2
4()4
mt
<i2K (ilS
.">!»S
225
128
481
208
178
586
3()8
111
10
17(1
51
rm
013
(U»
277
314
Vi
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
419
144
361
m
1S»
481
806
111
W
ITO
M
m
018
U38
877
314
Niiiiif.
McKay, V'fii. Arclideaciiii,
.McLaren, .lamts
MoLf'oil, Hon. J. i'
McLpod, Muitlocli ti
McLeoH, Rev. Angim .1 . , . .
.McLennan, J. K
.McMillan, .Fames K
.McNal), W
.McRue, Kev. I). A
McRiic, .r. C
McTiij^xart, John
Mc'TiiM'iien, Patrick
Ni.xon, K(l. B
Nixon, Thomas
Nolan, Patrick .1., Jr.
Nonnan, Francis
O'Connor, Thomas . .
Odium, Ed
Orton, (JcM). T., Mi).
Patrick, W. H
Pawson, .Tohn M
Po'liles, Adam .1 . L . .
Pirry, A. P
Peterson, A. M
Planta, Joseph P
Po]*, .Tames C
Praeger, K. M., M.D....
I'reston, Isaac
Residence.
Prince .\Il«'rt. . .
Vanet)uver
Kort Macle<xl
Vancouver .
Regina
Winnipeg
Victoria
Bantf
Nanaimo
Winni|)eg
Prince AlWt
New Westminster.
Winni|ieg
do
Calgary.
Prince Allwrt
Nanaimo ....
Vaiu.'ouver. , .
WinniiM'jf.
Fort .Madeod
Nanaimo. . . .
Winnii«'g. . .
Regina.
Brandon . . .
Nanaimo. . . .
Regina
Nanaimo
Vancouver
Randolph, .losepli, jr iHarew.xxl, B.C.
Reed, Hayter [Regina
Reed, .Tohn L | Prince Albert. .
Richards, Hon. A. N | Victoria
Richardson, Hon. H iRegina
Plaei' where Kvidence
taken.
Prince Albert . .
Vancouver
Fort Macleotl . . .
Vancouver
Regina
Winnipeg
Victoria
Banff
Nanaimo
Winnipeg
Prince All)ert . . ,
New Westminster.
Winnipeg . . . .
do
Calgi.iy
Prince Allmrt.
Victijria
Vancouver . .
Winniiiog . . .
Fort iMiM-ltMKl.
Nanaimo
Wiinii|K'g . . . .
K--Kina
Brandon
Victoria
Regina
Nanaimo
Vancouver . . .
Nanaimo
Regina
Prince Albert
Victf)ria
Regina
rage
Vll
■M7
K17
41l>
621
343
147
r)(r)
m>
.5X0
li
(Ml?
IS
.S7
4(IH
292
.5(a
r>43
77
■»2«
.5S3
2
2(H»
17«
.jfil
232, 212
577
(ill;!
57()
222
M(K»
503
219
General Index.
Naiiii
Kticln'Mttr, Kev. W. M .
l{iiliiiUoii, I'uti'r
IJoliHiui, Clias. W
Robson. Kev. E
Rouleau, Hon, C. B . . .
Royal, Hon. Jos
Kcnidfncc.
I'rince AlU-rt . . .
do
Vancouver
New Westininxter.
Calgary
R^^gina
.SauiT, (».
.Si-lioHfld, F
Huluiltz, Hon. .Tolin
Seniniens, Rev. J
Sliakespere, Noah
Hhfi)].,' -d, H. W
Sibbald, .f, S
Sifton, -V
Sifton, John W
.Small, W
Smith, C. Dell
Sniitli, .Facob W
Spencer, Riehniond, M.D.
Steeii, Jas. L
Stewart, tJeorge A
Stewart, Mvv. John
Stull, Jas. P. A
Victoria
Vancouver
Winni|)eg. .
do
Place where Kvidence
taken.
Prince .VJU'rt
do
Vancouver
New Westminster
Calgary
Regina
Victoria .
Vancouver .
\Vinnii)eg. .
do
Victoria ; Victoria .
Thoniiwon, !•". W . .
Todd, Jno. C
Townshend, W. I)
TuplKT, 1{. \l ... .
do
Regina
Calgary
Winni|ieg
do
Victoria
Regina
Hrandnn
Winni|K'g
Hanff
Treheme, Man. . . .
Prince .\ll)ert . .
WinniiM^g.
Brandon
New Westminster. ,
WinniiK'g
Uniuhart, Ki'V. .\le\ {Brandon .
Walkeni, W. W., M. \)
Walker, James
Ward, Robert
Watnon, Rev. C
Welsh, R^v. JohnK...
E. Wellington, B.C.
Calgary
Victcjria
do
I do
Regiuii
iCalgary
'Winni|)eg. . .
do .. .
V toria
Regina . . . ,
Brandon
Winni|n!g. . .
Banff
Winniin'g
Prince AIlxTt.
Indian Head .
Winni|H'g.
Branddu
New Westminster,
Winnipeg
Bnuidun ,
Nanaimi)
Calgary .
V^ictoria
do
Regina .
I 'age.
a!i«.
;tl!i, ;««
(U5
mm
.■)iti
IM
.531 '
478
272
3!HJ
!t4
1()2
■)50
.m
184
•""7
4Sti
1(K>
aie
iia
l(i4
.'58!)
22
LSI
.w3
;!72
521
5-10
266
vin
57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Niuue.
Westwood, A
\Vhite, David
Williams, Jas
Williams, Milton
Williams, Richard H
WiUoughby, J. H. C, M.D...
Wilson, Alex
Wolfe, Marcus
Woodsworth, Rev. Jaw
Wright, Alf. D
Wrigley, Jas. H ,
Residence.
Place where Evidence
taken.
Prince Albert j Prince Albert.
Banff. . .
JRegina .
Gleichen .
Regina .
do ..
Victoria.
Xanaimo ,
Banff....
Rt'gina . .
Calgary. .
Regina . .
do . . ,
Victoria .
Xanaimo .
Brandon iBrando
Regina
Fort Macleod .
Regina
Fort Macleod.
Page.
319
440
243
400
333
321)
513
568
202
342
414
2! «**
ix
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liOYiS.!^ com]missio:n^
ox I'HK
LIQUOR TRi^I^^FIC
MINUTES OF F.VmEXCE.
MANITOBA.
WINNIPEG, October L'4tli, 1892.
Tlie I{oyal CoinniKssion on the Liquor Tratlic met lioie, in the City Hull, this
(lav at 10.;50 a.m.
Present ;
Judge McDonald.
Uev. Dk. MrLKoi),
Tlie Commission having been lead,
JuuoE McDonald said ; 1 desire to state that it was th<! intention of tlie
Commission, tliat all the members should have be<^n prt^sent here to-day. The (.'hair-
man of the Conmiission, Sir Joseph Hick.son, subsequently found it impossible to be
present, and it was suggested that Mr. Clarke, Rev. Dr. McLeod and myself should
begin the work. Mr. Clarke has nut yet arrived ; hut as thi.s day has been advertised
as that on which the Commission would open its proceedings here, we will proceed
with the investigation and the taking of evidence on the subjects referi'ed to the
Commissioners by the Commission. f may also explain that Mr. (iigaull, one of
the Commissionei's, is Deputy Minister of Agriculture for the Province of Queliec, aiul
he is detained by duties connected with that office. I may state further that
the Commissionv-.'s unanimously admit the great evils that result from ilrunkenne.ss,
and therefore we have not thought it necessary tt> enter into any investigation of what
might be called the moral side of this (juestion in places where we ha\e hitherto held
sittings ; but of cour.se, we have taken up all the phases of the question of the liquoi'
tratiic in so far as such bear on the commercial and social interests of the country, and
also in regard to any other matters that come properly under the terms of the Com-
mission. The usual course adopted in each place we have visited has been to call, as the
first witness, the Chief Magistrate of the town or city, and following that rule, we
shall be glad to take the evidence of the Mayor of Winnipeg, and in his absence thati
of a prominent public official.
21 1**
Liquor Tmftic — Manitoba.
ADAM .lolIN LANK PKKItLKS, l'„li,,. MH«iHtmt<' of \Viimi,u.fr.
duly swni'M, deposed as follows : —
oil lH;ili;r
//// ,hiihjo Mclhiuiilil :
."JOt.'Ki. How loiiLt li!i\e you resided in
since IS7().
\Vimii|iog ? — 1 lui\-e resided in NN'innipei;
HUi;{7. How ioni; luue vou ix-en Poliee Mii-iistrate ? About thirteen \efiis, siiiee
1871).
-Wii
iiipe^'
liOl.'tS. Hiis tliere been a great change in any way since you came hero ?-
lias ;,'rown since I came here.
.■J04IJi). Did you come from some other section of Canada? -From Toronto, Ontario.
I came with Sir (larnet Wolsley and his expedition.
.SU4 K). Will you state lirietly to the Comniission what is your jurisdiction ?- -Win-
nipeg and throughout the ])ro\ince, hut my dutic^s are chielly in \Viniii[ieg. T am Police
Magistrate for the province as well as for the city, hut my duties are ])i'iiicipally or
almost entirely confined to city matters, to matters that come hefore me here. Cases con-
nected with hy laws and diflerent matters are occasii nally Wrought liefore me from the
country districts.
.'50441. T suppo.se you take preliminary e.xaminations in criminal cases sent for
trial? I do.
.'$0442. You have spoken of trying cases under city by-laws, or oH'ences such as
drunkenness and disorderly conduct and ofiFeiices of like character tried under the city by-
laws ? Do you hear such cases? -Yes, and various other cases.
.■$044;5. Those offences are dealt with under the city by-laws and not under statu-
tory law. t^uite so.
30444. You have had cases brought before you under the Vagrant Act, T suppose ?
— Yes, sometimes under the Dominion Act and sometimes under the by-laws.
."$044."). Taking your experience, and also taking into consideration the growth of
the city, has tliere been an increase or decrease of druiik(?iiness ? Duiiiig the last four
or five months there have been something less than two cases of drunkenness per day or
\'6''2 per month.
3044(1. You hold a sitting of the court every lawful day .' Sometimes my colleague
sits for me.
30447. There is a session of the court, if there is any business to come before it? —
Yes.
30445. Are those cases of drunkenness of which you have sjioken confined to city
people? Entirely to city people.
30449. Do you have very many cases before you of illicit sale of liquor, selling with-
<'Ut licensee? -Not a great many ; recently we have had one or two cases. During the
last four or five months we have had one case of a wholesale dealer selling liquor, which
was drunk on the premises, and \ think one man has been convicted for selling without
a license, but that was outside of the city. Another one is before the court at this mo-
ment ; and there are four hotel-keepei-s up Just now, but their cases have not been ad-
judicated upon.
304.")0. Are you able to inform the Commission as to how many licensed places there
are in the city ? - 1 cannot tell you.
304ril. You are not one of the issuers of licenses? — No ; those details will no doubt
be furnished to the Commission by other witnesses.
;?04r)2. Taking your experience, because it is with that we wish to deal in taking
evidence, and we also desire to obtain any suggestions you desire to make to the Com-
mission, in order that we may report them to Parliament, can you inform the Commis-
sion, in the first place, as to the imxie of granting licenses? — \ think probably that if
fewer licenses were granted and if greater restrictions were imposed, it would be of great
advantage. T do not think it is neces.sary to have any restaurant licenses.
304.")3. Would you confine the liquor sale to hotels? — Yes, to hotels.
30454. Are groceries allowed to be sold with liquor here ? — ^Several of the groceries
sell liquor, but they have separate stores in which the sale takes place.
Adam John Lane Peebles.
57 Victoria.
iSessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
u ruler statu-
the jii'oceries
yciirs
liiiu
.H04rir(. Ilow lidi^j liji.* lliiit lict'ii the law f I I'lHilci liiiriily tell you, two or three
Yos, [ tiiiiik it is. not til (illiiw the sale of
.■U)l."i(). Do you tliiiik it is ItfiicHt'iai .'
)!• «illi iti'oci'i'ifs.
lUJl.")". It. lias licfii stated in some parts ot' Canada tliat wlieii lii|Uors are sold with
<H I 'cries, there is a tein)itatioM to ]iurehase liijuors f ~ I do not think they are sold in
1,'rocery stores here, hut they are always sold in a detaehed l)uildin<;'.
;{04')S. You think it is an improvement f^-Yes, a (Un'ided improvenu'tit. ■
.1045!). Are you troidiled here witli sale ot' liipioi- to minors I -I have not had any
cases of that eharaeter at all.
.'SOI'iO. I refer to lads under aj{e / We have no eases.
;<04t)l. You ha\"e sjioken of four ea.ses pendin;; : of what nature are they .' They
are cases for sellin;,' during' prohibited hours.
li()M')2. Have you had many cases of that kind hei'etoforo f--No, not a ^reat numy.
.'iOMl.'J. Have you had many eases of what are failed hreaehes of the Sunday law?
— No, very few; we have not had any recently.
;{04<i4. Have you any law in re;.;ard to prohiliitin;; the sale of liipior in hilliard and
pool rouins, or is that .-dlowed to prevail here '? — Not without a license.
;<U4()">. fs it allowed with a license ( -I suppose so.
.'i()4(H). Have you had any experience to enable you to say whether it would be
Ixfnfiticial to have such sales priihil>ite<l '. — I think these rooms are only in hotels or' res-
taurants here. 1 know of no detached buildin<;s u,se<l for billiard or pool rooms.
30407. Has youi' attention been called to the fact that liijuor' sold is adulter'ated !
— I have never had any case of adulter'ationof li<|Uors brouf^ht before me.
.■504(i8. I do not mean char'f{es against people for' adulter'ating liipior ; but I desii'e to
ask whether the ert'ects of li(|uoi' on persons brought befor-e you liavfi Ix-en such as t<> lead
you to suspect that there wei'e adulter-ated conrpounds sold as li(|uor !-— No.
.'5040!). You do not know whether there are such compouruls sold? — No; I have
not had any experience in such cases.
;50470. Have you had any experience of the woi'king of a pr'ohibitor'y law?- No.
.■}0471. Have you alwavs lived in a country where liquor' could be lawfully sold ? —
Yes.
.'50472. Have you any exi)ei'ience of countries in which light wines are connnoniy
used, and in which they are used as a connnon drink at the table 1 — I have been in thc^
Mediterranean countries.
.'i047.'5. What opinioii did you forirr in regar-d to wine-drinking in the countries
there?— That time is so many years ago, I hardly like to speak of it. It was fifty years
ago when I left the .service.
.30474. Were light wines corrnuonly used in those countries ? They wer'e.
30475. W^er'e the\' used as or'dii\iir'y table liever-ages ? — They wer'e.
30470. From your knowledge of W'innipeg, has ther-e been any change in tht!
social customs of the people in r'egard to the use of intoxicating li(juors ? — T think not ;
tlipy have always indulged in them moderately.
30477. In sonre places we have found that owing to tenijier'ance societies and the
churches, the .social customs have changed, so that a gr'eat deal less licjuor is u.sed t — I
do not think there has been any change of that kind here : at all events, I am not
accjuainted with it.
3047H. Taking the cases that come before you, can you state what proportion are
attributable to the use of intoxicating liquoi-s ? -I am not in a jxisitioii to state the
pr'oporti(tn, but a great many of them are due to the use of intoxicating liquors.
3047'J. Take the cases all together: what percentage of the cases coming before you
would be directly attributable to the use of intoxicating liquors ? — I do not think there
have been any of them due to that.
30480. Take the ca.ses of drunkenness and all the other cases, in what proportion
of them is drunkenness the main cause ?--We have on an aver-age only about two cases
and .sometimes none.
30481. Taking the whole cases that come l)efoi"e you, drunkenness and all other
offences, is the propor-tion of cases due to the use of intoxicating drinks a large one 1 — I
21_ip*
3
Liquor TrafTic — Manitoba.
cl<» iKit tliiiik so. TlHTf luivf Iwcii iiiily twii ciisrs of druiikt'iinrss tlivily f<ir t\w past
five yi'dis, iiixl not iiiaiiy ollit-r oasi's, not iin-ludiiig l)rciu'li('.s ot' tin- liciillli liy-liiw.
•'i04H2 Ai°(! tlien* iiiiy suggestions you wisli to nuik*' to the ConiniisHion in i-t-f^iiril to
tlic li(|Uor trattic, any ani*'n<hn<'nts to tlic \n\y you dfsiif to su;;KrNt f I liavc not coiisi-
di'i'cd tli(^ niiitti'i': I did not know on what |joints I would Im- exandni'il.
By /iev. Or. MrLeod:
'M)\K\. You luivt' said tliat tlu' arn-sts for (li'unkcnncss have nob excet'dcd twi» per
day. Do you undcrstatid that tiiat is al)<)ut the nunilier of drunks in the city ? — I woukl
be sorry to say that ; I simply inferred to the^unnher l>rouj,dit liefore nie,
."tOIHl, Do you think that the police arrest all drunken people ' .'■■ .. they see f -I
tliink the prohahilities are that if a nmn is a little into.xicated. .iiay he sent to his
lionie,
JWIH.j. You think it is the rule in case a num is ^ „ .iion^, although tiot very
steadily hut (|uietly and is tendinj,' homewards, to allow him to j,'o / - Yes.
;J04S(). l>ut if ho is creatin<4 a disturhanco they arrest him, 1 suppose ? — Then he
is arrested — there is no douht al>out it.
.'JOIHT. I think you said there has not iM-en much chan;L{e in the drinking habits of
tlu' |)eo]>le (lurini; late years/ — 1 do not think there has been an increase in j)roportioii
to the population.
3U4'^M. You remember \ery wt-ll the boom days? — Yes.
.S()4f<i». Was there more drinkinji; then than now? Yes.
.'{U4!)0. To what do you attribute tht^ chanf;e, t<» the fact that there is less licpior
drunk now than then?- I suppose there is not as much money about, and everylxnly
was in a state of excitement in the Ixjom days.
.'iU4!)l. Y'ou tiiink that aside from that time, which covered an exceptiomil condi-
tion of thinj^s, tile condition has iK'en about the same/ There has bt^en very little t^hanjie.
ltOI'J2. You hav(! said that you do not have before you very nuiny cases of viola-
tion of the license law ?— No.
304!)l{. Have you reason to beli<(ve tiiere are many cases of violation, aside from
those you know otficially ? -As to whether there is drinkin<r during' j)rolnbited hours, I
have no doubt of it. I have, however, no positive knowledjL^e of my own, but simply
hearsay testimony.
;?04!)4. You say that there have oidy been a few cases brought before you otiicially ;
but from your own knowled{,'e, doyou think there is a ;;ood deal of sucii sale? — Hoth on
Sunday and on other days.
.■i()4!to, Have you any idea why more cases have not l)een prosecuted and brou}j;ht
before you?- Only that the cases has • vuX. bef n bi'ou;,'ht forward.
.■?U4!)(). Whose duty is it to pv se.ji i e in such cases? — I consiiler it is the duty of
the inspector of Licenses, Mr. Clarke.
;U)4i)7. What is the extent of h.-. jarisdiction ? — He is Inspector ftjr the whole pro-
vince and also for the city of Win.-op"^-.
;}() 198. Then he has his hands full to perform the duties of his otlice .'Yes.
.'{04'J!). The charges brought before you, however, have been charges brought up by
him, 1 suppose? — Yes.
.'?0')00. Under whose direction are the police of this city ?— Under the direction of
the ]\Iayor, the Judge of the County Court and myself.
30501. Do you know if the police take notice of violations of the license law ? —I
do not think it is the duty of the police to do so, except they see an open violation of
the law, such for instance, as tinfling a number of people getting drinks during prohib-
ited hours in saloons or places of that kind.
30r)02. Have you had any instructions in regard to enforcing the license law ? — T
liave here a letter from the Jioard of Police Commissioners to the Department of the
Attorney General on the subject. The letter is iis follows : — (Appendix 1.)
.'iOOOS. Does the Doard of Police Comuiissioners instruct the police t<i give any
special attention, or such attention as they can give outside of other matters, to viola-
tioi>s of the license law I — They do.
Adam John Lane Peebles.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
11, iiside from
le direction of
.■iOr>()l. S(i jiftci' Jill till' wliolc duty (if ri(iidiictiiii( iiro.st'ciititiiiH in I'DiitM'ctiMii with
illicit Sides <|<)<'.s nut di'\c>i\c n|i<>ii tlo' I iis|ii'ctiii-, as tlii' imiIIcc iirc idv\(iysHii|i|ius('(l inj,'ivr
xiiiii' lit tfiitioii to lliiit iiialtrrl III till- cM'iit of sfciii;; pi't'iiiisfs open iluiiii;; |>rciliiliit(>Ci
lioufs or sct'iiij; ii roiicoiirsc of |(fi)|ilf, \vc (-on.sidi'r if wmild In- tlii-ir duty to intcrfiTf.
.'tOoO."). W'liuld it lit' tlii'ir duty to make coiniilaiiits tnijic liisju'ctoi' or lay com-
itlniiitH licfori' yoii I 'I'o <-iiiii|>laiii to the liis|i<>ctiir.
,'l().')()t!. 'riicii it Wdiild si'ciii that the lMs|it'('tur has a ^fnod (h'al to do if he has to
watch the \iolat ions of the law, nut only in \Viiiiii|«';^ l)Ut all <iver the jirovinct* /-lie
may have detectives to dn that work.
;(U.")07. lias he no de|iiitie.s / I do not know.
.'t()')OH. Then he may employ detectixes sometimes on this ser\ ice ? No drudit ho
<loes so.
.'ti).")()'.t. llaN'e you reason lo heliexe tli.it tlieiejsa jioo<l deal of Sunday .selling;?—
I liM\e, apart from my own personal knowledge; I know it from iiearsay.
.'!()."illt, A ;i('nerally formed opinion, I sup)>ose? I am very little in the city on
Sunday, hut I hear that a ^ood deal of selliiiif takes place.
."i().")ll. .Are they many illicit places, that is to say, unlicensed places, .sellinL; li(|uor ?
I think not, hut that is a jioint on which I am not well jiosted.
;i()."ill.'. l>o inaiiv suih cases come hefore vou ? N'erv rai'clv. Thei-e is a man out
lleadin^ily w! . is hefore me now for sellin;; without a license.
l)o you think the sale of
I think thi'i'e are i,'i'eat
is a dan;;er to the community? — T do
your opinion, hotels are 1p8.s danf,'erous
of the license law hero ; what are the
.■iU")l.'5. You spoke ahoiit aholisliinj; restaui'ant lioen.sos.
lii|Uor would lie lietter coidined to hotels; and, if so, why?
iii(luceiiieiits presented hy restaurants for men to visit them.
.'i().">14. An- not the restaurants suppo.sod to supply moals? Tlioy are.
;U).')1."). Are thoy simply drinkiiiji; saloons.' -I do not know that myself.
.■50.")1(). Hut you think that it would he hotter to conline the sale to hotels and not
ha\o any .saloons in the city? — Yes.
.SiJ.")17. You think the hotels are loss likely to jiormit ex<essivo drinking there? — T do.
H().")1S. And you think thi'V would form less toin]>tation to the community? — Yos,
and they are neces.sary to the better classes.
.'{().il5). J)oyou think that the drink tradt
not know that.
.'iO.'H-'O. Hut I understand you to say, that ii
than saloons? —1 do not know.
liO.'iJl. What aro the jirohihitory provisions
hours durin<j which sale is illojiai ? You will Knd all such particulai's sot out in the Act.
The prohibited houi's, I think, aro from S..'<OSaturday nij^ht to 7.00 on Monday morning.
'M)'y2'2. And you have a f^ood many cases other than those connected with drunk-
enness ? -Yes.
.■10.')23. Have you been able to dotermino the relation be^twoen drunkenne.ss and
other crimes that come before you ; foi' instance, potty offences like assaults and petty
thefts anfl that kind of off(uu.'o. Is any firoportion of those offences tiviceable to drink 1
-— I do not think so in many cases, it may bo so iti some few cases.
.'10524. Then it is your belief that the drink trade and drink habit aro not I'o.spon-
siblo for these offences? — Thoy may be so in a few cases.
30r)25. 1 think you said that you did not think tliei'o is much sale to minors? —
Theio is not much.
.■50.*)2fi. Such cases lia\ o not come before you ? — No.
;{0")27. 1 suppose you would not like to state that sale to minors does not take
place? -No.
•50.")28. The law, I believe, pi'ohibits the sale of li(juor to Indians?- -Yes.
;50")29. Ts that law violated ? — Y'^os, there are not a groat many cases of sale to
Indians brought before me, but every now and then there is a case.
By Judge McDonald :
30.^30. Do you find in cases of sale to Indians that the .sale has been made to them
directly, or have people been sent in to get the liquor ? — We have great difficulty in
dealing with these cases. Tndians when interrogated always, state that white men have
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
jjiveii tlieiii tlic iiquur. Tn one fiise we had feeently, we discovered that a wliite liad
sold it.
30531. Such cases are dealt with under the Dominion law? — Yes.
30")3l'. Taking; your statement and judj^ing from the experience we have had of
your city, the Commissioners have found it a very (juiet and orderly one. — It is very
quiet, orderly and well conducted, and considerin;; the different nationalities we have
in the city, and its contiguity to the United States, its ordei'ly character is very
remarkable.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
30533. Do you think it would be well to reduce the number of licenses issued in
this city ? — Tf you were to take away licenses to restaurants that would reduce them.
30534. And you think that would be an advantage ?-~Yes.
30535. Do you think a reduction in the number of licensed places would reduce the
quantity of lii|Uor drank? — Yes, T think if the sale of liquor was confined to hotels there
would be a better class of people engaged in that trade ; however, some of the restaur-
ants are highly respectable — there is no question about that.
30530. 8|H'aking of restaurants that are highly respectable : do you know whethei-
those restaurants ever \ iolate the provisions of the license law? — T think very probably
they do, but T am not aware of it.
30537. Do you think the hotels violate the pi'ovisions of the license law ? — Yes;
but I have no positive knowledge myself, and T am oidy speaking of what I hear.
30538. And you think it would be advantageous to confine licenses t.. hotels and
to reduce the number of licenses issued, as that would reduce the amount of drinking
and be beneficial generally ? — It would be so.
the city of Winnipeg, nn being duly sworn,
J. C. McRAE, Chief Constable of
dejiosed as follows : —
By Judiji' McDonald :
30539. How long have you resided in Winnipeg ?- 8ince ISSI continuously, except
when I was absent on leave.
30540. How long have you been Chief Constable?- -Since February, 1887.
.30541. From what jiart of Canada did you come ?— From near Ottawa, Ontario.
30542. How many men have you on your force ? - Si.Kteen all told, including othcei-s.
30543. Have you any special duties to pei-form in connection with infringements of
the license law ? — None specially.
30544. As a police officer, are you called upon occasionally to aid in the enforce-
ment of the license law, by serving ])apersand sununonses ? We have been so employed.
30545. And have you been employed in enforcing municipal bylaws to prevent
drunkenness and di.sordei'ly conduct? — We do that work.
30540. Have you any system or rule in regard to dealing \tith people found on the
street under the influence of into.vicating liijuor.'^ : are they always arrested ? -Not
always.
30547. Are people who are able to mal-e their way home permitted to go home? —
That is the understanding.
30548. So long as they are not disturbing people? — So long as they are not disor-
derly.
30541). Is it your duty to officially visit places where li(|Uors are sold and make
inspection in any way ? -No, we ai'e not expected to do so.
30550. There is no statute or by-law to that effect ?— There is no by-law ; there may
be a statute saying that a police officer may do so.
Adam Joii.; Lane PEF.m.Ks.
C
rf i- n ■r i r ^jw. gt r T m^-j I- w wii i vK t
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
t a white liad
j; dulv sworn.
riuousiy, exoept
30551. It is not necessary for you as Cliiet' Constable to do so, but tlie police
olKccrs may do the work ? ^-Yes.
;)055l'. From your experience, what would you say as to the observance of the
Sunday jirovision of the license law ; is the law well observinl in the city, or is it fre-
quently broken 1 — Personally, I cannot speak in i-ejjard to it. 1 have not been in a hotel
liurinjj; four years.
30553. Then you hav(^ no knowledge to enable you to speak on the (piestion I — I
have no knowletlj,'e jiersonally.
30554. Can you speak in reji;ard to the selling of liquoi- to minors 1 — I have known
minors to be in a state of intoxication.
30555. Have you known any cases where pei'sons have been tried for selling to
minors? -I cannot now recall any case.
3055*). Tlie Mayor has spoken of selling to Indians. What is your experience in
regard to that matter ? There have been convictions made within the last six months
of selling to Indians.
30557. Dill you ever yourself see Indians under the influence of litpior f Not
very frecpiently, but occasionally there are Indians arrested for being drunk.
.'50558. Have you observed whether the separation of the sale of li(|uor from tht^
sale of groceries has been benelicial in its etlects .' I )o you believe it a i)etter system than
the old i)ue, under which li(|Uors and groceries wei'e solil together? I believe it may
be so, but 1 do not know jiersomdly any beneticial results.
30559. You hiivo heard the evidence of the Mayor in regard to the choice as
between hotels and restaurants. What is your view in regard to that subject, whether
both should be maintained, or supposing either to b(> clone away with, wliich would it be
better to dispense with ? Ff I were g'liiig to dispense with either, 1 would dispense with
the restaurant license.
305G0. T asked the 2ilagistrate as to whethei' it would be advantageous to separate
the sale of li(juor from bi.liard or pool rooms ; do you know anything in regard to that
matter ?-- There is no sale of li(|uor carried on in connection with billiard and pool rooms
alone.
30561. iJo you nu-an that the billiaril or poo] rooms are i-onn(>cted with hotels or
restaurants ?- -Yes.
3050li. Have you had any experience in regard to the adultei'ation of intoxicating
li(|Uors ? — No.
305()3. r mean the effect on mcp who drink them ? J d<> :>.;:tknow anything about
that matter.
30ri()4. Has ", our attentioi! been called to till' subject? — 1 ha\e heard of the adul-
teration of licjuor, but I knon nothing about it ,
30565. It has been stated to the Connni.ssioi; by some police otlicers ant,' by jiersons
occupying such ■ iiositii.u as you occupy, that compounds have been drur.' Vv people
who afterwards have beciime almost pai'alyzed. Ha\(' you heard of 'ou. pounds being
mixed with li<[Uors which would |iro(luce those eflects? - J believe sucli lliings have been
done, but 1 do not know of any such case.
305()6. Have y<.u noticed such eflects 'ii persons brought into custody '.' \\'e ha\e
had per.sons retained as witnesses who were evidently sufTering from the etll-.-ts of drugs,
but if course we diil not know what kinds of drugs.
'0567. Was any investigation made into the matter? — No.
.)056<S. What would you say in regaril to illicit sale of litpior : do you kiujw if there
are many persons selling witlujut licenses?— I do not know whether that practice pre-
\ ails to any great extent in Winnipeg.
30569. You liave nol had your attention called officially to it? I do not know
about it oflicially, but I hav(f heard of some cases.
30570. Have you had any experience of the working of a prohibitory law ?^No.
By Rev. Dt: MrLeod :
30571. Uy whom are y.ni ajipointed? -Hy the Board of Police Connnissioners'.
30571;. Has your force been increased during late years? — No, it has deorea.sed.
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
30573. Till' decrease was warranted by the condition of the city, T suppose? — After
the boom, the city wanted to economize, and consetjuently the force was r duced.
30574. At the time of the boom there wa.s a large influx of people and the condition
of affairs was not so orderly, I presume? — There was not such good order maintained
as now.
30575. The city is now back to its normal state, I suppose, and you do not find it
difficult with the force you now have to maintain order? — We are kept busy with the
number of men we have ; we have not enough men.
3057(). Have you observed whether the drink hiibit accounts for a considerable
proportion of the offences committed, including disturbances ; in other words, whether
any considerable proportion of the disturbances and other offences are attributable to the
.saloons and to the drinking habits of the people? Have you any idea of the percentage,
and if so what is the percentage ? — In .some instances they might be so.
30577. Do you think any considerable number ofthe.se offences are so attributable,
or only a few? — In regard to disturbances in the city, many of them are no doubt
directly attriimtable to liijuor, but as to petty larcenies, while persons charged with
those offences attribute their cause to drink, in my opinion tliey only present that us ■'.:)
excuse.
.30578. Ha\e you received instructions from the Connni.ssioners ns to your • ■ t<
and to the duties to be performed by your men ! -We are provided with rules and
regulations.
.3057!). Have you received any instructions as to the enforcement of the license
law ; — Instructions are given from tirae to time as recjuired.
30580. You said, I think, in ans'ver to Judge McDonald, that the police may do
such and such things ? — Yes.
30581. I notice in Section 106 ol" tlie License Law, that any police officer or police
inspector shall for the purposes of carrying out the provision of the Act, have the right
to enter premises and make search for licjuor. Do you consider that you and your men
are authorized to make complaints as to the violation of the License Law, or do you think
you siiould lia\e special instructions from the Police Connnissioners, in addition to that
section of the Act ?■— I do not think we should have instructions as to the enforcemenc
of the law, because it conflicts with our other duties in regard to the detection of crime,
or at least it might do so. I think there should be an officer independent of the police,
whose duty it should be to enforce that Act.
30582. That is the duty of the Inspector of Licenses, I believe?— I shouid so con-
sider it.
30583. But it would appear that he has the whole of the pi'ovince to look after? —
It is true that he is Chief Inspectoi- of the province, but he has a deputy inspector in
each district.
30584. You understand it is the duty of the p<:)lice to assist him in this work ! —
I think it might be consiiler»'d to be their duty to endeavour to get information. For
instance, if at hotels there were gross violations of tiie la a- taking place, such as rowdyism,
drunkenness or fighting during pi'ohibited hours, in my opinion ij would be the duty ot
a police otficei' to see that the law was enforced.
.30585. Hut only in case of disturl :ince occurring? — Only where there are gross
\ iolations of the law taking place.
3058G. As a matter of fact, has the Board of Commissioners instructed you to have
your men keep watch on licen.sed places? They have instrv.cted my men to endeavour t j
see that the law was obeyed.
.30587. Have you instructed your men accordingly ?- I have so instructed the »aen.
30588. Do you know whether the men give attention to that matter in connection
with performing their other duties? I have no doubt that the law has been obeyed.
.30589. And they nuike complaints to the Inspector, I suppose ? They have no
rig''t to make complaints to tiie Insj)ector, for that would be a breach of di <i.''[)line.
30590. But they tlo make ''omplaints ?— -It is their «lutv to i i.l;e a repoi '.
30591. A I'epoi-t to you or to some othei' official ? — They mal>'' it to m , 'in.' T have
not ivceived anv reports yet,
J. C. McBak.
8
r-M M - - v. ' ^ TCi t^ s q gM; ' AitftV-HCn ' ■■* -wv ' ■ " fc^iy^mK ' ggr^y. : ■ n r «». ' «»jTin i >;.i ^ ui ■
-fi
37 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
K)se ? — After
need.
he condition
maintained
I not find it
sy with the
considerable
rds, whether
utiible to tlie
3 percentage,
attriVjutal)le,
ire no doubt
■barged with
lit tliat ^iS -r.i
[) your -r.- le'')
■li rules .i!id
i the license
olice may do
icer or police
ave the right
md your men
do you think
Htion to that
enforcemenc
;ion of crime,
of the poHce,
louid so 1.1111-
ook after ? —
inspector in
his work ! — ■
lation. For
lis rowdyism,
tiie duty ot
'ic are gross
you to have
ndeavourt J
ted tlie kACw.
connection
olieyed.
hry liave no
'j>line.
bti' I iiave
m.
.'?0.'592. Then they have not made any reports '. T have not i'fc<'i\cd any.
.'{O")!);^. I suppose you agree witii the Magistrate tliat tliere is ])rol)ably cuiisidcr-
;ihle ilHcit sale, aitliougli that lias not come undei' youi' notice otlicially ? l)o you mean
<iui'iiig pi'oliiliited iiours ?
.'(OoiH. I mean l>y people not licensed? — I do not know of any liouses where thei'c
is illicit sale, except in iiouses of ill-fame.
."iOoO"). Tiiei'e is illicit .sale in that there is sale during prohibited hours ? -1 do not
know it, but I believe there is.
."W-'iOO. You iiave no otticial knowledge of it ! I do not know ; I do not taste
li(]Uor myself.
'Mii\)7. You have not had the fact brought to your attention, that illicit sale has
taken place in many cases? — I have not liad it called to my attention or mentioned to
me at all.
30.j98. Is your knowledge the general knowledge that people possess ? JJo you tiiul
it ditlieult to enforce any laws that may be enacted and which it is tlie duty of your men
to enforce? — I do not find it ditlieult my.self.
.'5059'J. Do you think there would be less drinking if there were fewer places
licensed? — iJy impression about the drinking habit is that tliere is a good deal of it done
through company. A crowd will get together and they will <li-ink on ai-eoiint of the
e(()ii|)any ; they will treat, and because one man does .so, another man will do likewise.
30()00. Then it is done on the score of good fellowshyJj?--Yes, those who drink on
these occasions may not have any appetite for liquor, but they do it as they like company.
In consequence the more men that happen to be together in one |ilace the more drinking
there is apt to be.
.'50G01. What suggestions would you make about tiie closing of restaurants? I
think you said it would be better to close restaurants, continuing the sale of li(|Uoi' at
hotels. Do you think there would be more or less liquor bought? — I do not think I
said that.
.■iOG02. I thought you agreed with the Police Magistrate on that point ? — I think
that if I had to choose between one or the other, T would cancel the licenses to restaurants,
liecause son;.- n" them are simply drinking places.
;$000;$. Do you think tliere would lie more pi'obability of young men congregating
ii. Iio'lcIs and drinking than thei'e would be in restaurants? I do not know.
30()0-1. I ask this question because it .seems to be a disputetl one at the diflerent
lities we have visited. Some people have expressed the opinion that it would be well to
^i ■■ r; restaui'ants and confine the sale of li(juor to hotels. We are anxious to ascertain
l'.> ••.'ason for that opinion? —Some of the restaurants profess to do nothing but sell
!ji[.i')r. and they are practically supported by the sale of li(|uor, and Isupjiose they would
■.ot lu' SI) Judiciously and carefully if they had otiier means of livelihood such as the
f'T':' .1- ousine.ss of a hotel.
.'lOGOa. Other people have made this point : The hotel is really more injurious than
.lie liquor saloon, because when a man goes to the saloon he goes there simply to obtain
<lrink, and he will not go there unless the habit is pretty well foi'nu^d and he has reached
a point where he does not care who knows, while young men and others might go to a
hotel under the jiretense of seeing a man, and tnider cover of this might go to the bar
and obtain drink. So the (piesticm arises: which is the iiKH'e dangerous, the hotel liar
<ir the bar proper, where nothing is sold except liquor? — T do not know
Bi/ Jadgf McDonnlii :
.'iOOOO. In looking up the Government statistics, 1 find that the number of conviction.s
r'or breaches of the liquor law seems to lie gradually diminishing. In I88!l, the number
for the whole province was liO : IHUO, |.") ; in 1891, 1 1. T do not know anything aliout
the province. I might say my duty is confined almost entirely to the city, although
when crime is committed hei'e, we follow those who commit it all over the province.
HOtiO". Do you find the number of convictions for drunkenne.ss has decreased very
much since you came into office ? — Yes.
.'iOfiOH. I observe that in IS8"2 for the whole province the number was '_',.'j()4 ; in
1883, 2,2.58 ; in 1884, 1,085 ; 188.5, 71 1 ; 1886, 631 ; 1887, .529 ; 1888, 479 ; 1889, -591 ;
9
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
1890, 48(5; 1891, ")18. ? — I do not think there is as mucli liciuor drank now its there was
some years aji;i), when I first joined the force.
.'JOdOO. You yourself iiave never known the taste of liquor, 1 believe ; you are a
total abstainer ? — Yes, I drink a glass of hot Scotch prescribed by the doctor, but with
that exception, 1 do not know the taste of liquor.
30010. Have you given any consideration at all to the question of prohibition t — I
liave given but little consideration to it.
•'50611. You cannot speak from your own experience? — No.
-■50012. As a member of the Commission, I desire to ask this question in connection
with the matter, whether, if proiiil)ition war, enacted, compen.sation should be made to
persons who are engaged in the manufacture of licjuorn : distillers, brewers, etc. ? Have
you ever considered that (|uestion ? — I have considered that subject a little, as well as
other matters connected with it.
SOti 1 .'5. What o^^inion have you arrived at in regard to it ? — .Since these manufactures
have been recognisi' '' !•'■ !.t" for a length of time, it woulfl be reasonable that the parties
should be coinpen.saij< uie extent.
.■50(il4. Are there i. iiggesticms you could make to the Commission from your
experience in regard to aiii.ndments of the law concerning these matters ?--No, F do
not know of any rectjmmendation 1 could make.
EBENEZEll McCOLL, of Winnipeg, Superintendent of Indian Agencies, on
being duly sworn, deposed as follow.s : —
Hy Judge McDon' id :
30615. By whom are you appointed ?— By the Dominion Government.
30616. How long have you held your present otlice? — T was Inspector of Indian
Agencies from 1875 to 1877, and I have been Superintendent since 1883.
30617. How long have you resided in the province I — Since 1877.
30618. Are your duties continetl to the province of Manitoba? — To the Manitoba
Superintendency, which means Treaty No. 1 to 3 and 5, from Lake Superior to the
western boundary of the province, and extending up into the North-west Territories.
30619. Do you take in part of Ontario? — That part of Algoma which lies near to
Lake Superior.
30620. And what else ? — From the border down to Cross Lakeand English Ri\ er as
far as treaties are made with Indians, and north-west up the Saskatchewan River to
Cumberland House, a distance of 200 miles.
30621. Do you take in Keewatin? — Y'es. and the Treaty Indians of 1883.
30622. Roughly speaking, how many miles of boundary would that cover? —
100 mile.i from east to west, and from 500 to 600 miles north to south.
30623. How long does it take you to get over that territory? — It depends, of
course, on the weather, for it is chiefly winter travel. I suppose it would take between
four and five months of the year.
30624. Are you brought largely into contact with the Indians during these travels ?
— Y''t's, 1 have travelled during fifteen years about 75,000 miles, principally by canoe,
and I have visited every camp.
30625. On the occasion of your visit, is there a gathering of the Indians ? — Yes,
all the Indians on the reserve gather, and I hold my meeting with them, and examine
their gardens and inspect their schools.
30626. Would you kindly state to the Commission the condition of the Indians, in
so far as the use of intoxicating litjuors is concerned' — No intoxicating licjuors are ever
used by them, outside the boundaries of civilization or of white settlements, and oi
course far north there are no settlements. The only places where liquors are used are
around Selkii'k and the city of Winnipeg, and around the reserves. There is a reserve
at the junction of the Rosseau River and Red River, and along the Rainy River there
J. C. McR.\E.
10
iw*,«,i«K»t' jii^an
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.s there was
ibiticiii ? — I
gencies, on
or of Indian
is lOiisidiMablf drinking;, especially at the time ot" treaty payments. The reason that
they ar.' ahle to get the li(|U()r is that there are disreputable men who cross over from
the Unitinl States, and brin^' liijuor with them. When they return across the river
they are beyond our control. Within recent years the Dominion (rovernment, how-
ever, sent there an excellent otticer fi-om Ottawa who has almost stamped out the sah- of
litpiors at the time of the treaty payments. This year it has been reported that little
or no diinking has been goinj;; on there.
.■50027. What mode i.« adopted to prevent the practice? — He is very vigilant, and
goes from one band to another and arrests the offenders. Most of the dealers are
Canadians who have gone across the line to e.scape the clutches of the law.
;50G2S. They go into the United .States? — They frci[uently go into Minnesota.
.■i0(i29. If the Indians follow them they are able to obtain liquor ? — Ye.s, and the
Indians al.so obtain liquoi' at Hat Portage.
;?00.'W. Has not the trattic with the Indians during recent y(!ars been materially
reduced ? — Yes. [ remember the time in Winnijieg when you could not go along in the
city without .seeing Indians in a state of intoxication, but they are siow immediately
arrested, and if they do not give information in respect to the jiarties from whom they
obtained the li()Uor, they are imprisoned often for a long term. So many jx'rsons who
have sold liquor to 1 nilians have been severely punished that it is now dithcult for
them to obtain li(|uor, excej)t through a second paiiv. Of course. Half-breeds and wiiite
men can procure liquor and give it to Indians.
.'WG.'H. As a result of your long experience, are there any suggestions you desire to
make to the Commission ? — Only as I'cgards absolute abstinence. Tiie Indians cannot
take drink as do the white man, ther(i is no half way with him. 1 may say that a law
in regard to supplying liquor to Indians has been put in force by myself and by the
agencies without fear or favour to any party.
.'50632. Can you make any suggestions to the Conunission that would make the law
more efficient ? -Oidy that .some officer shcndd be a]>pointed at different points, similar
to the officei" who has been appoirited, and who has achiexed such success at Rainy l{i\t'r.
We try to appoint suitable men as constables in order to ])rosecute the cases, but in
many instances they have ))roved ab.solute failures.
.■}06;5."{. Were they not in some cases under liipior intluencesi They appeai-ed to
lie under certain influences, becau.se they dealt with the Indians,and perhai)s the jiarties
who su)ipiied the liquor did not consider it advisable to inforrii on them. However, it
has been a failure and that plan has not been succe.s.sfully carried out ; but I desire to
repeat that the official from Ottawa has met with the greatest success. All the reports
that have been received indicatt^ the great difficulties that have been met with, and
jiro\e that unless officers are vei'v energetic it is inqiossible to jiutdown the drink tratle.
We have endeavoured to induce the Uinttid States CJovernmenl to place an officer there
but have not succeeded.
306;U. Do you visit Rat Portage? Yes, once a year.
.'50035. Has any length of time elapsed since you were there .' I ha\c to visit all
the Indians in the Lake of the Woods and Rainy Lake and Rainy River disti'ict. I do
not stoj) thei'e any lengt'i of time, bi'cause 1 have afterwards to go south and then north.
30030. Is Hut Portage under the lic(Mise law of Ontario .' Yes.
30037. Are there many places where liquor is sold? -I cannot tell you exactly, liut
there is quite a number.
3003S. Is your stay there often long enough to enable you to see whethei' the law
is ob.servetl, and wheth<>r thei'e is much drunkenness and disorderly conduct there / I
never see much disorderly conduct : there is considerable drunkenness at the time when
lund>ering is over and men come in from the canqis. Of course you might be in Rat
Portage and not see anything while you were thei'e, but at certain times it is crowded
with peojile, especially with labouring men connected with the mines and with lundiering.
.'50039. Do you reside in Winnipeg? Yes.
30040. Did you come from Ontario !-~l came here from the county of West KIgin,
Ontario.
30040rt. As a citizen of Winnij)eg, have you observed the optu'ation of the license
law here? — I have paid very little attention to it, except so far as my own business a:^
11
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
SuperinteiKlcnt is i-oncfriuHl. When tlie Iiulians are camped down tlie I'ivert'or several
miles, tliey a;'e supplied with litpior hy disi-eputable parties who take it to them. Of
course many of the Indians who camp round the city are not of the hij^hest (U'der, and
are not to be taken as specimens of Indians such as are to be found «.;; the reservations.
By Rev. Dr. McLeml :
.■W641. Do you find a marked change in the condition of the Indians ] — I observe a
gradual change. It is a marked change when you take a jieriod of 15 years and make a
compai'ison ; but if yor take the change from year to year, it is very slow and gradual,
for they are very tenacious of tlieir iiabits.
.'{OCillrt. Then you have observed a steady change '] — They are very tenacious of
tlieii' habits.
.'50042 Do they adopt the habits of white men ? You spoke about their gardens :
are they beginning to take an interest in tilling the soil '/ —They take considerable inte-
re.st where the land is fitted for cultivation : but in Treaties ',\ to T), that is from l{at
Portage eastward to Lake Superior and av.ay along English Hiver and Winnipeg River
ant! the north ))art of Lake Winnipeg and down Nelson River and the Saskatchewan,
and north pai-t of Lake Winnipegoosis and Lake Manitoba, the land is .so rocky that
cultivation is almost imjMtssible. The chief mode of subsistence by the Indians there is
by fishing and hunting, and they pay but little attention to agi-iculture, beyoni the cul-
tivation of corn and potatoes, which are raised in those parts in considerable quanti-
ties. But where the reservations are suitable for cultivation, as is the case in some parts
of the country, there is excellent cultivation carried on. At Ltjng Plain, Swan Lake
and Rosseau they have raised '),000 bushels of wheat. At St. Peters, tliousands of
cattle and horses and other domestic animals have been raised, and where missions have
been established the Indians have cattle and they are in a very comfortable condition.
.■iO042a. In what condition do you find the young Indians / — We find them working
on the railways and in sawmills, even tilling the position of head-sawyer, and in other
employments, and I have no doubt whatever that their condition has been improved
very much of late years.
;}0()43. Do you tind t': -re is less inclination to drink among the young Indians
than old Indians ? —Some will not taste liquor if it is offered to them. At St. Peters the
Chief will not taste a drop of liquor, nor will any member of his family.
."50644. Is that due .somewhat to the prohibitions that have been thrown around
them and the fact that they have .seen benefits arise from abstinence ?- T think it is the
influence of religion so far as they are concerned.
3064.0. I suppose the introduction of liquor amongthe Indians in any degree would
hinder their progress toward civilization 1 — It would be fatal to all the efforts n)ade by
the Government towai'ds their advancement because they would spend anything they
could get on li(juor.
30646. Do you tind it possible to enforce the prohibitory law .so far as Indians are
concerned 1 — Yes; the violations are reduced to a minimum now. Many of the Indians
do not know the taste of li(juor.
30647. Do you think the use of liquor is greatly more 'njurious to Indians
than the whites 1-1 most emphatically think so.
.50648. Is it because of their semi-savage condition ? \ think it has greater
influence over them — the smallest (juantity influences them. It is the same as regards
tobacc(i. They cannot use it in any sti'ength ; they mix it with kinnicic, for if they have
it full strength, they cannot u.se it. They are very stolid u[) to a certain point, and then
they go off at once without giving any indication of it. When I travelled round first,
few of their huts were covered with anything more than bark and the large proportion of
them wore blankets, which they obtained by trading w ith the Hudson Bay Company.
On my trip this year I saw oidy two or three wearing blankets ; almost all of them were
better dressed than the average workingman in the country. Of course they are impro-
vident and do not jirovide for the future ; this is specially the case with hunting and
fishing Indians. They will not have one day's ratitms ahead.
30649. Do you believe that the prohibition of liquor is not only beneficial to the
Indians at present l)ut that the effects of prohibition on the present Indians will be
Ebenezek McColl.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
scrviltlniis.
lo Indians
seen in their descendants, in that they will be U-ss trouljleaomc lo deal with .' Probably
so. Hum and tobacco were introduced liy ti'aders some years ago, but 1 believe the
Hudson Bay Company put a stop to that tiadini; alto!j;ether. Since that time the j,'ene-
ration of Indians has passed away, and probably many of those who are old men now
have never tasted li(|Uor. Lonji ago it was rum which was obtained foi' their furs, l)ut
there is nothing of that sort now. Such trading is absolutely prohibited and no iiijuor is
given to Indians. Of course, occasionally disreputable people go from the cily and give
them liijuor in order to get their furs.
■'iOdTjO. How many years have elapsed since prohibition came to be enforced?—-
There has been no li(|Uor among them at the outposts.
liOGol. I suppose until the I>omininn adopted (|uite rigid measures there was more
or le«s ii(|Uor distributed among the Indians? — It was not done by the Hudson Hay Com-
pany, but the li(|Uor was obtained in the settlements. Adventurei-s came in who \vante<l
tf) obtain the fui's, and they took li(iuor with them when they went among the Indians.
During the perioil I have lieen connected with the Indians, which extends (^ver fifteen
years, the Govei'nnient has useil every etlort to put a stop t > the distribution of li(|i!or.
306o2. No doubt dui'ing those fifteen years you have oliserved marked benefits to
result? --Yes.
."{OG");}. Do you find from year to year that the benefits are more marked ? Cer-
tainly, as these people are becoming educated and civilized and the li(|Uor is f)rohibite(l
from being introduced at all on the reserves. If the law is violated in this respect the
offenders are severely jiunished ; we even fine hotel-keej)ers now, and they will not give a
drop of li(|Uor to Indians for fear of the conse(|Uences.
.■{0()r)4. You mean they dare not do so? -They do not do so because they ai'e visited
with severe j)unishments, the fines for these olfences varying from !?50t(» S-'WO for each
offence.
.■JOlio"). Do you think the severity of the penalties pi'events to a large degree, the
sale of li(iuor to Indians ? — Yes. The Indians could otherwise get li([uor by paying
twenty-five cents a glass foi' it, but the hotel-keepers will take a long time befoi-e they
will be able to obtain sufficient profits to pay the fines.
IJOOofi. So really there are not only the (Tovernment regulations, enforced by your-
self, !)ut these severe penalties that are visited upon [)ersons who sell to Indians, are a
great help also ? — Y'^es ; we could hariUy accomplish anything unless those penalties were
imposed.
By Judge McDonald :
.■506.")7. You ha^'e spoken of religious influences being bi'ought to bear on the Indians.
Do you find the ettbrts of missionaiies have been beneficial.' No (loui)t of it; that is
the case, I may say, in regard to all missions wherever established.
3Ut}")8. Theii- ett'oi'ts are also directed to showing the Jnrlians how to cultivate the
soil by setting an t^vaniple to them, and showing them how to cultivate a garden and
raise domestic animals, and of course these missionaries are invariably oppi)S(;(i to alco-
holic stimulants being introduced among the Indians? No doulit that example has its
influence and has been the means of hel|iing to i)ring the Inilians to their jires iit con-
dition — both tlio.se efforts and the eil'orts (»f the Hud.son Hay Company and some of the
other traders.
■'{0<)o9. Did you during your visits anion,' the Indians for tr'eaty purposes, Iiav(> to
travel through the North-west Territories ? — Yes, from (Irand l{:tpids up to Cumberland
Houses.
;]Ofi()0. AVas there a prohibition law in force during those days ? I think there
was, and liipior could only be obtained under a permit from the Lieutenant-Governor of
the North-west Territories.
306fil. Do you think it was an easy matter to enforce prohibition among the white
people there ?--Tliey had li(|uor only in limited (piantities. There were, howexcr, prac-
tically no white settlements there. 1 am speaking only of the Saskatchewan district.
Occasionally the principal traders might have a limited ipiantity of liquor for their own
use, obtained under these permits or when they meet a friend. There was no drinking
going on at the outposts, for they had no litjuor there.
13
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba..
.SOOfjl*. Snail classes ot' people wcr'e frco from (lrunkt'niiess ,' Yes; altliou<rli they
liad a i|uaiility of lii|Uor thei-e, it was so small that they kept it for special occasions.
.■{0(103. How (lid the (lovermiieiit otticers oii the iMn-der succeed in |)reveiitinj,' these
people from hrinj^ing li(|U()i- across the horder ? — The (JoveiMiment officers did not prevent
them from crossing; the border, they cauf^ht them on their return. It must he remem-
bered that liquor could be bi-ought over from Rat Portaj^e at the boundary line south of
Winnijiej; timi at all points west. They stopped the importation of liipior at Fort Frances
and that district.
.■iO()()4. Have you had any knowledj^e fif the smu;,'};liiij^ of litpior across the border?
— I have no peiNonal kiiowled}j;e, only I have heard from reports that certain parties
have camped opposite the reserves here and there.
.■}0()()">. Was that in connection with the .sale of lii|uoi' to Indians 1 — Yes.
.'50000. Have you any further su}^<;estions to make to the Commission ? — None what-
ever, further than, if one oi' two otticers were placed at diH'erent points, who were inde-
pench-nt in their action,s, their .services would be of great advantage to the Indians. I
think that is the best suggestion 1 can make in regard to this matter. The orticer to
whom I have referred is only a temporary one, but he has been there two yeai-s, and it
would be desirable for the (iovernment to appoint such an othcer permanently between
Hat Portajie and Fort Frances.
HENRY A. COSTKIAN, of Winnipeg, Collector of Inland Revenue, on being
duly sworn, deposed as follows : — •
Jiy Judge McDonald :
306G6«. How long have you re.sided in Winnipeg 1 — Fourteen years.
30007. How long have you been Collector of Inland Revenue 1 — Six years.
30f "S. Did you come here originally from any other province ? — I came here from
New Brunswick.
30609. During the time you have been a citizen of Winnipeg, have you had occa-
sion to observe the habits of the people? — Yes, fairly so.
30070. Do you tind this to be a sober coHiniunity ? -I think its condition in that
respect will compare favourably with that of coni:nunities in other cities.
30071. As much so as in the older sections of Canada v,ith which you are
acquainted ? — I think so.
3067:2. Have you noticed a change in the social customs of the people in regard to
the use of liquor ; is there less drinking than formerly ? -I think it has considerably
decreased here within the last ten years.
30673. What are jour duties in connection with your department ? — Generally the
collection of duties on Canadian manufactured goods coming here in bond, and the
supervision of manufactories here.
30674. How many establishments are there here manufactuiing liquors ? — We have
no distillery here, but we have breweries.
3007."). How many have you ? — There are seven breweries in the Province ; three
in Winnipeg, two in Portage la Prairie, one in Brandon and one in
are located
Minnedosa.
30676.
30677.
You say there are no distilleries? — There are no distilleries.
Have you any trouble with illicit distillation ? — Occasionally we have cases
of illicit distillati(m ; the cases have been in a small way so far.
3067f<. What do the people u.se in making liquor ? — In the last case we had, which
was a few months ago, they used potatoes simply.
30679. We find in the Province of Quebec that molasses was used for distillation
purposes ? -In this case we found the people who made the whisky, used potatoes;
they made a decoction from them.
Ebbnezer McColl.
14
KfuiM 'ra :n m mLV*fiim »m
t vm mmmmi j r mi m . ^-
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
!•:
'Of sale
(lecrfiisiii;; / It liiis luit (U'crwist'd I
ill tlie 'J'fiTitories wci'o hefoiv the
ilAV \V!IS 111
fon
wl
icii lii|U()r
;<06f<0. HiivB you liiul any opportunity of exaniiiiiiig tliat spirit, or set-ing it pro-
(lufi'd f -Xo ; wi' (lid not lind any spirits on tlu' jireniises. Most of tlic cases of illicit
distillation, liowever, are in the North-west Territories.
■'?0()S1. Does your district extend so fai'? It eiiihiaces the North-west Teri'i-
tories.
;50()S2. l">oes it embrace not only Manitoba, hut the North-west Tei'ritories ? — ■
Yes.
.'<0t)83. Is the same kind of spirit maile tiiere ? — Xo, it is manufactured from grain
prineipallv ; sfimetinies syruj) and molasses are used.
.'{0')84. Ts it manufactured mainly for the people's own use, or for sale
generally.
.SOGH"). Is that illicit distillation increasing o-
think. All the cases of illicit distillation we have
new North-west Ordinance' went into eH'ect.
."iOGSG. Then that was when the prohibition
could only be obtained l>v permit ; and now that the licen.se law has come into force,
you tliink there has been a decrease in illicit distillation? -The license law has not yet
been sufficiently lonn in force to enable me to give a detuiite opinion, or to draw a con-
clusion, but we have not found any ease of illicit distillation since then. 1 do not say
it follows as a result of the new license law.
;50GS7. Have you any knowledge in regard to the smugi.'liiig of li(|Uor from the
Ignited States into this country! What is your experience.' We work jointly svith
the Customsi Depai-tment in regard to the matter. There is very little smuggling into the
Province f»f Manitoba to my knowledge, but there has been a great deal into the North-
west Territories especially before the Xorth-west Ordinance came into ett'ect.
.■$Ons,s. In what .section was most of the smugglitig carried on. or was it carried on
along the border generally? — It was carried on at Fort Macleod and Pincher Creek, and
all along the boundary liipior came in.
.'}0()S1). Was it brought in by Canadians or by people from the I'nited States ? —
(ienerally by Canadians.
.'{OGltO. You .say that very little of that has occui'red in Manitoba?- We have never
had a case to our knowledge in Manitoba.
.'$0691. What kind of lit|Uors are niaiidy imported in bond ? The only s])irits is
what is known as rye whisky.
;}0G!)2. Does it come from Ontario? — From Ontario piincipally, f>om Toionto and
Walkerville.
;{0G!).3. Do you get any from Prescott ? Yes.
.'50694. Those are, of course, the thiee jirincipal distilleries in Ontario?— Yes, but
we also get a large quantity of spirits from Waterloo.
.'5069."). Do any liciuors from Europe come through here in bond ? -We would not
have to deal with them ; they would come under the Customs Department. Of course,
large (piatitities of liquor come through the hands of the Customs.
.'50696. You have only to deal with liquors manufactured in Canada, 1 siij)pose? —
Yes.
.30697. Have you any statistii's with you to show what (juantities have been impoi'ted
in bond for a series of years ? 1 can give yoi: an idea of the (luantities. I made a calcu-
lation for the year ending .lune ;5rd, 1S92, and 1 found during tiiat year we collected
duties on 12.*),947 gallons of proof spii'it, that is of the strength of proof : in other words,
that c|uantity was taken out of bond here, and the amount we collected was 8188.924.
When I say " jiroof spirit" you may add about 20 per cent to that for standard gallons,
for reniemlier that we reckon everything on the basis of "proof," which is 100 jiercent,
and the ordinary spirits as consumed are 2") i>er cent or .so. This calculation has to be
inaile in order to get an idea tif the standard gallons.
."50698. Is that spirit for u.se in Manitoba and the North-west Territories? Yes.
150699. When did the new Licen.se Law come into force /—I think on May 1st of
last year.
.'50700. So for one month liijuor might be .sold lawfully in the North-west Terri-
tories ? — There was a great deal of liquor useil in the Territories under the permits.
16
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
HOTOl. Will) sviiuld tukt! tlmt (luantity of H«|uor out of bond ? — The ditt'erj-nt v. liole-
siilc li(|ui)i' men Ih'ic in Winiiipe;^. They hold landing wurtihouHe licenses here, and
tlity take out tlio spiiit as they reijuire it.
.'50701*. That (junntity is really what is taken out for consumption ? — Yes. I have
hero a memorandum of the numl)or of gallons of beer prcnluced during the same perio<l.
f think the (juantity was 4 17,70!) gallons.
;{070."{. That was the output of the seven breweries in the Province of Manitoba, I
supjiose? - Yes. 1,160,964 lbs. of malt was used in pi'oducing the .same, which juiid a
duty of 829,21!).
30704. Can you give a statement of spirits of Canadian manufacture taken out for
consumption at the Winnipeg b],\cise OtKce during four or live years? — Yes. The state-
ment is as fohows ; —
Proof
giillons. Duty.
30th June, 1888 (i(i,.-)71 a" ■•? H(},r.4'i (Xi
.lo 188!t (M),'_>7S-7'2 ]U),U'0 H-2
do ISiM) 1(11,411-81 1M1,8:W (i4
do 18iU I(l4,7(i8(i7 i;<ti,4(« 7:<
do 1892 I*2r),it47 4;) 188,!»-.'4 !»8
During this year ( 1892) the duty was increa,sefl from !!?1..'50 to §1. 50 per proof gallon.
30705. As a citizen, have you any reason to suppose that liciuors are tampered
with after they leave the hands of the wholesale dealers? — We make regular analyses of
licjuor-! ; in fact, we make analyses of focKls and drinks generally and other articles. We
have never had a ca.se of tampering with li(juor.s.
30706. Where are these analyses nwule ? — Here in Winnipeg.
30707. Who is the local analyst ? — Profe-ssor Kenricks.
30708. Then no analyses have been submitted tn you showing any mlulteration ? —
We have never found any adulteration which it was nece.ssary to prevent, that is adul-
teration injurious to health.
30709. Has there been a standard fixed as regards the purity of li(juors ? — No;
there has been no standard established. You have asked as to whether any compound-
ing goes on here. 1 may .say there is a firm of licensed coinpounilers in this city.
30710. Who are they'/ — There is only one firm, Ferrier, liosenberg & Co.
.30711. Have they a Government license for compounding? — Yes. T^hoy are
allowed to put up licjuors in imitation of foreign goods on branding them as such.
30712. Are there any suggestions you desire to make to the Commission, from your
orticial experience, in i-espcvt to the liipioi (juestion? — I think if the present law wei'e
thoroughlv enforced, it would be a good law.
30713. Hiive you had any ex{)erience of the working of a prohibitory enactment?
-I have bien tih\o to watch the results to some extent in the North-west Territories and
here.
.30714. Yiiu have travelled thi'ough the country ? — Yes.
■30715 Did you find prohibition prohibit? — No, vei-y Far fi'oni it.
30716. Do the )ieoi)le seem to obtain liipioi' ? — Yes. I think the consumption by
the j)eo])lf now is not any greatei- than it was before they had the license system. It is
my candid opinion, however, that drinking is less spasmf)dic.
30717. You have spoken of the lai-ge amount of smuggling that has prevailed in
the North-west Territories as found by the Government Departments. Supposing a pro-
hiliitory law was passed for the countrv as a whole, what, in your opinion, woidd be the
result of that law ? — I think it would result in considerably more sumggling taking
place.
.30718. Do you think there is much smuggling now in Manitoba? — Well, there
is a good deal now in Manitoba and the North-west Territories ; but the inducements
for snuiggling are not so great in Manitoba.
3071!). Do you think with a prohibitory law in force, you would find Manitoba fall
into line with what you find to be the stite of affairs now in the North-west Territories ?
— Yes, it appears to me that would follow.
Hknhy a. Costigan.
16
MNiiwiaHHiic.-.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'(07-0. Did you ubsorvo in travi'lliiig tliidugli tho North-west Tt'iiitorios tlio kind
of li([Ui)rs used there? — To what time (U) you refer.
.107-1. 1 refer to tlie time when tlio prohibitory enactment was in force ?—Tliere
was some of the veiy best li(iuor there, and also .some very poor wldsky ; tlie liijuora
;.'eiieraily were poor.
lijl R<r. Dr. M,Ltml :
.'i07-l(». You have spoken in rc^janl to illicit stills in the North-we.st Territories ; J
.-.iippose you have made seizures there from time to time .' Yen.
.'iU7'-'-. Have you miule many seizures ; was much liijuor seizeil ( There have been
>.ix or seven seizures made in the Territories within my time. There was not mucii
li(|Uor seized, as the parties had usually sold out ; in fact, tliey .sell it nearly a.s fast as
liiey make it.
.'5()7"_'."5. Has there been a vi^^orous atteraj)t made to siiut up the.se illicit places? — •
N'cs, there was a vi^jorous attempt made on our part. The country, of course, is very
v.ist in extent, and it is a pretty ditticult mattei- to reach the parties.
.■i07'24. Hpeaking in legard to the jirohibilory law there : do you think the permit
svstem was so used that it really destr<»yed tlie prohibitory law ? fn my opinion it is
pretty difhcult to administer the permit law as it should lie administered. Wluit 1 mean
i-< this ; all the aj)plications come to headipiarters at Hegina, and perhajis there may be
two or three hundred in the morning lying before the Go\ei-iior there, and I do not
l)flieve he had the proj)er means at hand to find out whether the applicants were eligible
to receive permits ; hi' simply issued permits when asked for them. He had no means
of discriminating.
.'J07:.'"). Do you mean that he i.ssued them indiscriminately .' Of coui'sc the applica-
liuns had to be endorsed by some responsible citizen who was known at itegina, but
liiat endor.sation was generally forthcoming when asked foi.
.'KJ72(). Do you think the (iovernor ntiver made any attem])t to ascertain whether
the permits were really recpiired ( I ha\e no doubt he did all he could to see that
no permits were i.ssued except to proper jiarties ; but what I .say is, that he had not the
means of ])r(Ji)erly ascertaining whether tlu' parties were eligible or not.
30727. You think h(! had simply to grant the permits asked frtim him; In most
cases r think he had to (hi so.
.■)0728. Do you think that a strict check on the jiermit system would have been
inure I'fVective ?- - It might have been so.
•'1072!). Do you think that notwithstanding the permit sy.stem, prohibition was in
any degree effective in the North-west Territories ?-- There may have been slightly less
spirits consumed then than are now used.
.■>07.'W. Would there be the same smuggling then as now / Yes.
•'i07.'51. Do you think there is very little now ?— There is very little, and 1 have not
lic.ird of any cases recently.
.'i07.'12. T su[ipose there i.s scarcely any necessity for smuggJiii^ \:i tlie Nurlh-west
now, because the permit system has been abolished? Yes.
.■{073;}. Is there any smuggling in Manitoba?- I do not think so.
30734. Are the Mountecl Police stationc^d anywhere in Manitoba to )irevent snnig-
giing? -Yes. They are stationed along the boundary, but I do not think they ai'e
there esjiecially to prevent the smuggling of whisky or spirits.
.■i073n. \''ou think there is not suthcient inducement for smuggling now > (juit(! so.
.'i073t). Have you any idea of the consumption of spirits in the North-west prior to
I lie abolition of ijrohibition ? -No, I could not give you any idea as to what quantity
entered the North-west Territories.
30737. Was it a considerable ipiantity ?- The e.xact figures could be obtained only
from the dealers. Of course, we lose sight of tlie licpiors after they leave the warehou.se.
21 2**
17
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
t'l
KDWAKI) liAltNKTT NIXON, (if \Viiini|«-g, on l)ciii« duly hwoih, d^K.s.'d us
lows ;
lit/ Judiji' MvDoniild :
307IW. Whiit is your occupation? I iiin iimim;{i'i' ot" the grocery and licjuor d'part-
iiionts of tlio Hudson Hay Company at AVinnipej?.
.■1()7.'5!). Iluw loni; have you resided in the eity / — Since 1882.
.'507 10. How lonj; have you held your present position? — Hince 188(5.
.'$07 H. Dill you eonie i.eie tVoni one of the other provinces ? -I came here from
Moiureal.
'■WlA'l. Then you have hren a citizen of Winnipeg; since 1882?- f was absent for
I wo years and a half.
;J07I.'J. J)uriri,!,' the time you have lieen a resident of this city, have you had any
opp.,!'tunity of forming; an opinion as to the charactei' of the people? — Yes.
;U)( I'l, ll.iw do you find this community as regards sobriety and good conduct? -I
thiidc h.'tter thici the average.
.10745. Have you noticed as a citizen how the laws appear to be enforced as to
Siiiiilay sale of liipior and oi-derly conduct on .Sutulay ! — T think Sunday is kept in a
very (trderly manner in Winnipeg, in fact more so than in any other city in which I
have ever lived.
.30740. How long did you live in Montreal ? — I livt.'d there over ten years.
50747. I understooil you to say that you ai'e manager of the grocery '"nd li(|Uor
departments of the Hudson Hay Company. — Yes.
.307 18. In what way do they deal in li<pioi' ] — The departments are entii )arate,
but both come under l\w. control of the Company.
.■U)74^</^ |)o tlie Company sell lii|uor at their stores? — Yes.
.30749. I)r)they sell liipior elsewhere than in Winnipeg ; at what other points ? — In
Manitoba, at Deloraine, .Minnedosa, .Moi'den, and al-;o Fort (iarry ; and in the Nerth-
west Territories at Prince Albert, Eilnionton, Battleford, Calgary, Macleoil, Uattle Creek
and Lothbridge.
.30750. 1 believe Macleod i.nd Battle Creek are both near the boundary? — Y'es.
30751. And you have also stores at l>attleford, Prince Albert and Edmonton,
north, T believe 1 —Y'es.
3075l'. How long have sales been carried on at these places in the Territories? —
Only since the license system went u\U> effect in the North-west Territories.
30753. I sui)po.se the Company sold groceries there before that time ? — Yes, the
Company sold general stores, with the exception of licpior.
30754. In tho.se places is the sale of li(juor connected with the sale of groceries ?—
It is separate in the North-west Territories.
30755. Hfis it taken place in a separate store? — Yes, in Alanit'^ba !>*■ Abirden and
Deloraine the Company are allowed to keep the liquor in the store, the same as in old
times it was allowed to be sold in the east.
30756. How long is it since the change was made in the law here? — I think altotit
four years.
30757. Do you consider that change in the law is a beneficial one for the com-
munity, or have you had any rea.son to form an opinitm on that matter? — We have
not noticed any appreciable diflerence.
30758. Evidence has been given, notably in Montreal, thfit where groceries and liip
uor are sold together, women and others, who would not enter a store to buy li(|uor,
would go and obtain groceries and buy liquor at the same time ? — I do not think there
has been any difference with us in that regard. It might have made a difference to
some dealers who were in the habit of selling liquor with their groceries, but I do not
think that made any diflerence with our trade.
30759. Are you able to state as to whether your sales of liquor continue about the
same volume yeai' after year, or whether they increjuse or diminish ? — Do you mean
our retail trade ?
Edwakd Barnett Nixon.
18
57 Victoria.
Sesaional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
tliiuk aljotit
."i()7l>0. Yfs.— Tt I'oiitiiuu's iilniut tlii> siiinc. Oiir sfilcs inctfiistHi >i|ii(lly until
lici'iiscs wfi'f j,'iaMte»l in tlic Ndrtii-wcst, Tfriilttrii's. l)iit mir sales line Imvc (ji'iTcusfd
HJlli tlif ii|i(>nin;,' ii|i of stori's tliroii^^lHiut tim <'(iiuitrv.
.■{07t)l. How do you iici'ouiit t'or tluit 't — It is owiu;; to llu' I'lu-t timt pcririits wi-rc
lint scut down lu'iv to ix* lillcd.
.'l()7t>-. I >o tlii'sc |icrniits fall for tin' same (|uaiilil ics. or do I lie i|uu ititii's \ar\ t — ■
'I'lir (juantily \;n'it's.
.■<U7ti''5. I>id till' kind of lii|Uor \ary '. Y»'s.
;i07t)4. Won,' soind pcnnits for whisky and for wines, ales, etc. '. Yes.
;{()7(i;'). Have you fravplled tiirou;,'li tlio Nortli-west Territories at all I Yes.
.■t()7<i(). r)id you travel tlirouifli the country diirini; the time the prohiliitory enact-
iiieiil was in force !■ -Yes.
.'!()7t)7. When did tlu; I'hanu'c from prohibition to license lake |)lact' ? (hi . I line Isl
last.
.'{07()H. Have you hcen tliHrc since? Not since that time.
.■f()7li!l. |)uriii;,' the time prohihition was in force did ymi notice the kind and ijuality
(if lii|ii()r that was sold anion;; the peupie ,' — No ; I did not.
.'i0770. In your opinion, was iii|iiiir ol)taiiied there i)f the same (piality as is .sold
licrc .' 'S'cs.
.■!0771. Have you any knowledge as to wiieiher smugglin;; prevailed to any great
extent there? -T heliesf it did.
.'!077:i. Is yoiu' opinion formed from in ii--ay or from individual knowledge '. —
I'idiii hearsay.
;{0773. Not from personal ohservation '. No ; I can hardly say that.,
.'$0774. You mean tiiat smuggling was generally believed to prevail 1 — Yes ; it was
]ii('tty generally believed to prevail.
.'!077-"». I 'id you ever live where a. prohibitory law was in force /- No.
.■i077t). Have you formed an opini.m on the subject of j)rohibition from the exjieri-
ciice you had in the North-west ! l)o you think such ti measure could be enforced if
ailojiied ? Do you mean in the Province of Manitoba '(
•"iU777. Yes. -I think it would be difficult to enforce ])rohibiti(Mi in the Prov ince
iif .Manitoba.
.'i()77H. \n what way would ditliculties arise? -From siiniggiing.
."(0779. I understand that you cannot give e\ idenee to the (Commission as to whether
li(|Uors of a deleterious character wei'e .sold in the North-west Territoi'ies while the pro-
hiliitory law was in force ? ~I have heard that there was, but I never saw any myself.
.">07S0. Have you any suggestions to offer to the Commis.sion in regard to the liipior
tratlic or in regard to any alterations in the law ? No : I think the law is a good one.
.'i07i^l. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the iniiiosition of larger licen.se
fees is productive of good results? I think the license fees are heavy enough.
,■(0782. What is the license fee now? >?42.") for a wholesale license.
.'50783. Ha.s your coinjiany a wholesale lieen.se ? —We have a sho]> license.
3078-t. lender such a license, licjuor catinot be drunk on the premi.ses, 1 believe? -
Yes, in addition to the license fee, we have to pay small fees, ont; of which amounts to
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
.■i078r). Did I understand you to say that your liquor business has increased latterly ?
--Yes.
.'50786. To what do you attribute that increase ? — To push on the part of the Hud-
son Bay Company.
.'50787. I wonder whether you attribute the increase to that, or to your belief that
tlie drinking habits of the people had im reased ? — I do not attribute it to that at all,
but to the fact that the Hudson Bay Company are endeavouring to do more bu.siness.
30788. To the fact that they are pushing the liquoi- branch of their trade? — Yes.
30789. That they are trying to sell the largest possible (juantitie.s, as they do, I
suppose, in regard to groceries and dry goods and other goods ?^Yes.
30790. T think you have stated that this is a very orderly city ? — Yes.
19
21 2il**
TT
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'507!)1. Do yuu tliiiik the drinking liiibits of the people, not only in Winnipeg, but
tlnt)Ughout tlie regions covered by your company have decreased iiml not incieased? — I
do not think they liave increased.
.■iU71)-!. Do you think the pusii displayed by your company will have a teiulency to
increase I he sale of liijuor? — I think the increase of population will cover the increase
in the sale of liquor.
.SOT!).'?. Do you think it would be well to limit the nund)er of licenses issued or to
increase the nunilier'/ — Do you mean iji this pi'ovince'?
;W794. Take the country at large '( — I think there is a limit in Winnipeg.
.S0795. You think there is a limit here ? Do you think it is well to have the
number limited? — Yes.
.■>079C. Why ? — Because in this way the trade is placed in the hands of more
respectable men.
30797. W^oulil you limit tlu; number of peop'io selling --ordinary merchants? — I
think you c(>uld hai'dly do tluit.
3079H. Why not'/ — Is there a dili'ereuce between the liquor trade and ordinary
business 'I — There is to ii certain extent.
30799. Give the Connnission your view on this point? T think there is n.oi-e
chance of dishonest dealing in the liquor business than in any other business, and I
think there ai'e also more chances of dishonesty.
.S0800. Please explain. —T am referring to the adulteration of liquors.
30801. There are chances of dishonesty in that one man will sell only pure liipior
while others will adultiM-ate it? — Yes.
30(S0li. Dc you think that the tendency to adulterate is very marked .'--1 <i<.' not
think it is so here now.
30803. You think it is well to limit the number of [lei'sons selling liquor,
the country at large ? — Yes.
30804. And your reason is because there is a chance to adulterate ther(
honesty in the trade? — That is the only reason.
3^80"). Is it because of the effects of the trade ? — M^o.
30806. The Connnissiohers are charged with the duty
effects of the trade. !>o you think there is anything in the
that makes it a wise provision to limit the lunnber of persons t>ngagefl in the trade,
in other words, to check the ran\i*ications of the trade
(juestion to answer.
3080Grt. Did I understand you to say that tliere \Nas no
in the North-west during the prohibition per-iod .' No.
30807. No bquor was sold by you at ail ! No.
308ti' . You have said you tliink it would be difficult to enfon;e prohibition in
^lanitoba. Why? I think it would lead to smuggling.
.30809. And you think that is a thing to i)e dreaded .' Yes, I do.
30810. Is thei'e smuggling on a considerable scale in Manitoba outsideof the liquor
trade?— Not that T know of.
30811. T''e Commissioneis have V)een int'ornied that snniggling is taking j)lac(! in
otliei- parts of the Dominion, especially in the >St. Lawrence and along the coast? Not
hei'e.
3081'J. I suppost> in the border region;, there will be more or ,' -s smuggling of
ordinary goods. Are there prevtMitive officers stationed along the bor er? - Yes.
.■i081.''i. Are they stavioned there to jireveni snmggling? Ves.
.3081 I. As there is danger of snmggling, or preventive othcers would not be statiivned
thei'e, it is perhaj)S fair to assume that there miglit be considerable evasion, more or less,
of the law, and that the chief ilanger as regards smuggling would ari.se after prohibition
was enacted in Manitoi)a? ^^'s, thei'e would be smuggling by unprincipled di'alers. Of
course if prohibition was enforced, every person who dealt in lit|iior would l)e a violator
of the law.
.3081"). And only unscrupulous people would engage in the business, although we
have been told in Manitoba that all tiie mm in the trade or most of them at all events
Edwaki) lUriNK'n' Ni.xon.
20
taking
is dis-
of in(|uiring into the
character (»f the trade
That is a pretty haril
quor sold in your stores
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
i issued or to
ill V'*"'' ;-tores
(iliibition in
(If of the li<ni(>r
would become smugglers if there was prohil)ition enacted : hut of cou se "^hose may have
liecu rather sweepinj,' statements. T believe that the peojihi of Manitoi;a Iiave expressed
thciusi'lves very strongly in favour of prohibition. Do you think the reeont vote fairly
expresses the opinion of the people ? — I think the plebiscite was sandwiched in with
imlitic's.
30816. So you tliink that tin; view expressed is not that of the peopL? of the
[ii'oviiice 1 — I do not think, if the peo])le were to vote again, the resolution in favour of the
|i|(>l)isoite would carry, irrespective of polities.
I(()S17. Is that the general opinion? That is my own.
.'iOSlS. Do you believe rir do you not believe that the expression of p'lblie opinion
ill regard to that plebiscite indicates that the feeling in Manitoba would back up and
world i'l.sist upon the enforcement of a [irohibitory law ? If such a law were to be
enueted, do you think the ])eople would i)e iiidifl'erent ! Do you think t' it expression of
opinion indicated that if a i)roiiil)it<iry law were to be enacted, the people would stand
bv it Jind insist on its enforcement, or that they would be indiirerent as to its enforce-
ment '. -That is a hard ijuestion for me to answer; T would not likc^ t(j say.
;lOiSlO. You do not believe in prohibition youi-self ? — I do nut.
;)0820. As a business man and iis th<> manager of the li<|Uor department of the
Hudson Bay Company, F suppose you look after the grocery as well as the li(pior
hiisiiiess I -Yes.
;i(J821. Do you believe that th<' jiroliibition of the liipior trallie would injure business
generally, I mean outside of the litpior busiiKVss ,' - 1 think it would indirectly.
.'>n8L'2. Inwliatway? — It would throw a great many people out of woi'k. Jind it
wiiulil .ilso ilepreciate the vahu' <if property.
.'i()s23. You mean it would throw out of work tIiose(;niploved in the liquor business ?
^■es.
.'?08"24. And in what way do you tliink it would dej.ivciate the value of piojierty .'
-It would depreciate the value of projii'i'ty now us(mI for the iiusiness, hotels and stores.
.'^082."). Do you think the property now used ,is hotel property would be rendered
useless if the li(iuor business was aiiolished .' Probabh- it would not be rendered use-
less.
;'i082<). You mean it would be rendered le.ss valuable? — Yes.
;50827. Do you thiidc the people now employed in the lii[uor business would be left
without emjiloynienv of any kind if the business was .abolished? Probably not all.
.■(0828. l.>o you think that after a man had emiiloyment in one kind of business; he
Would tiiid employment in ;inother'? Probably so, but not sueli proiitable eniplovmenl.
.■i()S2i). Some people have held this opinion, that the li(juor business instead of
being a benefit to the general business of the country, is an injury to ordinary business,
in that it takes away from the volume of money that would certainly How through other
iiusiness ehannels and give tMiiployinent to the people in a manner that would be more
[ii'iititable to them. J lave you gi\('n sullieient thought to i 'is point to enable you to
give an opinion on it I No.
150830. Tn pushing the l)usiness of the Hudson Bay (' >',pany, you lia\e not. I sup-
pose, (.fiven thought to that side of it? No.
Jii/ Jiidgi' Mi'Doniilil
•'(0831. Ha\c you had any experience, except in the Noitli west Teriilories, in
regard ':o proliiiiitory legislation ? —Do you nuvm in towns ?
3('832. Yes ?— Yes, at Richmond in the Province of Qiieliec.
.'t()S33, Have you ever be<>n in .Nfaine? No.
.i08.'>l. l[ow did you find matters in Uiehmond? -The Duiikin .\et or tlu^ Scott
Act was in force there, and I found that liquor was used very unsparingly there.
By Rev. Dr. McLend :
.■'.083.>. How long ago is it sini-e vou were in Richmoiul ,' I was there in js"'"^ and
1>7!I.
()8.3G. There has been opportunity for impi'o\emcnt since tii 'ii, 1 suppose f -Ye.s,
and there was room for it
21
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
By Judge McDonald ;
30f^;i7. In the case of a proliibitory enactnuMit being passed, could you form an
opinion as to tiie propriety of making remuneration to those engaged in the manufacture
of liquor, on account of injuries done to their property '',- No, that is a little beyond me ;
that is a heavy question to consider.
RICHARD LATOUCHE TUPPEK, of Selkirk, Manitoba, on being duly swuin,
deposed as follows ; —
By Judge McDonald :
,'508.'?8. What is your position or occupation ?— I am Fishery Otticer for the l)om-
inion rjovernment.
.S0839. How far is Selkirk from Winnipeg? — ^Twenty-four mih's.
30840. How long have you resided in Selkirk ? — I have just moved there ; I lived
in Winnipeg.
30841. How long have you lived in Winnipeg? — Winnipeg has l)een my head-
quarters since 1878.
30842. Before that time where did you live? — In the County of Victoria, Ontai'io
30843. How long have you held your present position ? — Since last June.
30844. Did you hold any official position before tb.at? — Yes, I was Chief License
Inspectoi- for the Province under the McCarthy Act until it was declared idfni rlirs.
I was the t'athor of the Manitoba ^\ct, which has l)een rei)ealed since.
30845. Then you are able to speak with considerable knowledge as to the working
of the Act. Can you state briefly and generally in what particulars the Act diflered
from the one at present in force ? — No. T have not thought of the changes, but they
are slight. There an^ vei'v tew changes from tlie Act as passed after the McCarthy Act
went out of operation.
30846. How did you find the McCarthy Act to work? — I found it to work \ery
well, for the reason that it placed the licensed houses on a business basis. Before that
time under the old Act, we had too many houses licensed here to do the business, and
things were runninj.; loose to a certain extent. Tht^ McCarthy Act was a very benetlcial
Act for the Province.
30847. Did it appeal- to be satisfactoi-y to the people as a whole ? — Yes.
30848. Did you, as Inspector, find it a workable Act? — Yes.
30849. How tlid you tind the state of affairs in regard to the ob.sorvance of the
Provincial Law while you were Inspector there? As to Sunday observance : did you
have anything to do with that?- — 1 had to do with the general working of the Act, and
I found the Sunday pro\ision was observed fairly well.
30850. Then as to the sale of liquor to minoi's : had you any trouble in regard to
that matter? — ! do not think during the whole time I was Inspector, F had one case of
complaint with res[)ect to the sale of li([uor to minors. I was particularly severe
with hotol-kee]iers and I allowed them to understand — as 1 knew every hotel-keeper in
Manitoba — that I would be particularly .severe on that point, and I cannot recollect any
complaint of \ iolation of the provisions in regard to sale to minors.
30851. Had you any experience in the working of the laws as regards allowing the
sale of liipior with groceries, or did you make provision for theii- separate sale? — I re-
commend strongly that the sale should be kept separate.
30852. Do you think as a result of your experience, it is desirable that the
sale of groceries and litiuor should be kept separate? — Yes. I think the sale of liquor
should be kept altogether .separate from that of groceries,
30853. It has been stated that where the sale of liquor was combined with the sale
of groceries, greater temptation was offered to women to pui'chase liquor, and it was
Edward Bahnktt Nixon.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
duly sworn.
31- the Doiii-
jiointed uut that women who wtmld not think of going into saloons, would go into
groceries and purchase liquor? — l do not know whether they would buy or not, but it
might be charged in other ways in the account, and it w(juld be impossible to tell
\\ hether the charge was for groceries or for liquor.
.■?OiSr)l. Had you any reason to suppose that liquors were adulterated at all during
tlic time you were Inspector? — -I am a druggist and chemist also, and I ca , tell jirttty
well in regard to li(iuor. I take li<pior myself and I know its (|uality preUy well, aii<l
f do not know of any adulteration being practised in Manitoba except in regard to
watering the liquor. [ do not kn(»w of any injurious a(lulterati<in having taken place,
and the reduction of its strength by water is of course dilution.
80^>r).j. It has been stated that in some |iarts of the country, tobacco, bliiestone and
otiier articles are mixetl with liqu(»r to give it a tiery charactei' .' That was done
fre(|uently in the North-west Territ<^ries.
:)085G. You ha\e never known it done in Manitoba, under tiie license law, J
-appose .' — No.
.'(,)f<.")7. \Vei-(' you tioubled with illicit stills when you were Inspector I — Not aftei-
\vf di'ove out the illicit dealers. When the ^lanitoba Act went into force, we were very
seveie in regard to illicit sellers, and we fined them so heavily that it did not pay them
111 continue the business. There have been very few carrying on unlicensed sales since
ilie new Act came into force: in fact, since the McCarthy Act came into foire. there
has been \erv little unlicensed sale.
.'508.")8. So tiiat when tin,' people settled down under the administration of the law
and became an older oonununity, you would expect that cases of illicit sale would
liecome less and less fretjuent '. \ do not know that such would be the case. 1 know
the Province pretty well, and tlie illicit sales taking place are of \ny small proportions,
it is simply a matter of watching \'igilantly in order to prexcnt illicit sales taking ]ilace.
."lOS.")!). Thei'e was evidence gisen before the Connnission tiiis moiiiing in tiiis city,
I l)elieve by the Police Magistrate or by the Chief of Police, tlint billiard rooms and
pool rooms are only licensed ii\ coiuiection with restaurants? I do not tiiink there wi'i'e
any licenses in connection with the s;ali' of litpior.
;)(J8()0. Were there any persons keeping small iliiard and pool rooms who were
licensed .' Wei'e they in connection with hotels or n -laurants licen>-e(l to sell liijuor? -
i cannot remcmbei', but most of the hotels and .saloon- had iiilliard and pool taljles.
."50801. Do you know of any licenses granted to sell liipMi- in [)ool and billiard
moms since you ceased to be Inspector ! — I do not know of such cases.
308()L'. r understand you havt- rc'sided in Winnipeg. How ha\e \ ou toun(] th' city
as regards sobi'iety ! — I lia\t? \isited the cities in the east and ha\ (^ also t ravelleil in
\arious ])arts of the United States as well as Canad;i, and I think Winnipeg will com
pare favourably with any city, and is ahead of most of them.
.'{08()3. Have you considered the (juestion of the treatment of the persistent
ilrunkaid ? We find in many sections of the I'ountry that there are unfoitun.ite ]ieople
wiiji whom it is an almost constant jirocession finm the polii'c court to the jail, and
then from the jail to the saloon and back to the police court, and that this pi'oces.sioti is
kept up the year round. Are tli /re any such cases in this city ?- We liavi; some -iicli
rases hi-re, and 1 would place the parties in the same category as lunatics.
.■{08('>4. Should the\- i)e treated as though they needed to be ke])t under re-ti'aint ?
Yes; l believe in tiiat treatn;ent. ir-
.■1081);"). Do you think .iny reformation is elFected by sending thi^i to prison for a
-liort term ! - No.
.308(JG. Have you ever known any man to be reclaimed fi'om drunkenness by that
treatment ?- No.
.'50867. Have you noticed the etl'ect of the liquor trallic on the connnunity as a
whole; whether it is beneficial or the reverse as regards family life, business interests
and so on '( — That is a pretty hard <pu'stion to answer : that is as to whether doing aw ay
with the .sal(! would beiu'fit the connnunity.
■'10808. I am speaking of the etl'ect of the liquor traffic, whether the eU'ect is good
or evil on the eommunity. Have you paid much attention to that matter? — I could not
answer that question.
23
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'50869. Have you noticed the effect in travelling round, as I understand you have
tra\ elled a good deal through tlie country 1 — Yes.
30870. Have you found that there has been during the last tit'teen or twenty years
a change in the social habits of the people, by which a smaller quantity of liquor is
consumed by the people than was formerly the case 1 — I think th(! ^^ocial habits have
imjiroved, for the reason that, on account of cheaper transportation, a better class of
licjuor is obtained and the people are able to get better liquor than formerly. ^ travelletl
fnim lnjre to Edmonton and the Peace River country long before the railroad came in
here. I walked from Ottawa River to the Rocky Mountains, with the exception of 1.37
miles, and I const iitly visited the Hudson Ray posts and other posts, and at some
places I drank bi'iiiidy and whisky. Now in Manitoba you can get light bevei'ages,
and of course thei'i' is less drunkenness than there M'as before ; although there may be
moi'c liquor di'ank there is less drunkenness, and the people have improved under the
<-liange.
.■i0871. As a traveller, looking back at your expei-ience in Ontario and in this
western country, do you think there is less drinking now than there was foi'merly t I)o
you i)bs(M've in the hotels and smaller places fewer peojile taking liquor, and also that
less liquor is taken at table than in olden times? — Ye.s, theie is mucli less drinking at
table than formerly.
30872. Have you noticed whether there is as much of wh.at is called treating in
this part of the world as formerly ? — It is quite common.
.■10>*73. Sujjposing that hotel, saloon or restaurant had to be done away with, one
or the other, by legislatit)n, which, in the interest of the counnunity, would it be better to
dispense with, the hotel or the restaurant? — F should say, keep the hotel ; but I think
some restaurants are necessary in a city. The reason I provided in the Act for a few
restaurants, was because any good restaurants in a city likt Wiiniipeg lose money as a
rule in the dining-room, and yet some restaurants are necessary, especially for a cei'tain
class of inhabitants who are bachelors and live in rooms. A great many gentlemen live
in rooms and go to restaurants for board, and in order that the restaurant table may
be kept uj), it is necessai'y that there should only be a limited munber. \ believe a few
restaurants are necessary. That has been my experience.
30874. Do you think the proprietors could not maintain tlie restaurants without
being allowed to sell liquor there, or is it because they charge too little ?— They would
otherwise have to increase the price of meals.
3087."). Then the profit they make on the sale of drink enables them to furnish
meals at a lower price than otherwise would be the case ? — Yes, because there is liquor
at the table.
3087G. Do not quite a large number of people visit restaurants who do not take
any li(|Uor at all, and do not such persons pay less than they should do for their meals?
— Not less than they should pay, but less than the proprietor can afford to supply them
at. I know many total abstainers who take their meals in restaurants and also take
meals in hotels.
30877. Then owing to other people drinking litjuor, the total abstainers are able to
obtain their meals at a cheaper rate? — Yes.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod:
30878. Then tiie total abstairicr does not pay for what he gets in food ? — Yes, that
is my experience. That was the reason why 1 recommended the Government to grant
seven restaurant licenses in the city, and I spread them over different parts of the city
so that persons living in different sections could reach then) easily.
By Judge McDonald :
•3087!). Have you had any experience in regard to the use of light wines and ales
and the ellect they have on people? — In what way do you mean ?
30879a, You are well aware no doubt that in European countries the}' are generally
used, and some people recommend their use in this country. It is contended by some,
that if our people would use wines and ales and get rid of stronger liquors, the change
Ricii.vuD Latouchk Tuppeb.
24
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
would be promotive- of temperance? — I liave read the matter up and have noticed that
tli(> temperature of the climate has a great deal to do with the character of the liquor the
]i(Mp|ili' drink. In Italy the people drink light wines, but as you go north you find the
|itM)])l(' drinking spirits, and in the northern regions the people always want strong
li(|iiors. I believe, if more bciM- and light wines were flrank, our j)eople would be
licttcr,
308S0. You think, then, that the question of climate has an important influence '.
T am satisfied that if our peojjle would drink more largely Canadian or Califoi-nia
liiilit wine, it would be better for them, and I am satisfied moreover that thousands of
|ii'(i|il(' who drink these wines now would, if they did not drink them, drink strong
iiiliiofs.
.S0881. You have spoken of light liipioi's being used now, which was not formerly
1 he case. Are there any other beers oi- light drinks that are useil ? The Conmiission
lia\e lieartl of Weiss, hop and Schenck beer and birch beei-, all of which contain a very
small percentage of alcohol. Do you know whetliei- such drinks are obtaining any hold
aiiiiiiig the j)eople?- I have not heard of that.
.'50882. Are you aware that lagei- beer is largely used ?— Yes : that i.s of the strength
.11 about 4 per cent.
;i088.'5. Have you had any experience in other places than Manitoba, where there
Ikis been a ))rolubitoi'y law in force? — In Iowa and Xein-aska, and T h;ive also visited
suinc of tiie New England States.
.'50884. State to the Commission your experience in Iowa :' I sto])ped in Sioux
City over night, and I asked the pi'oprietor of the hotel where I was staying, where the
l);ir was. He said he had no bar. I may say that this was a very fine hotel, worth not
Ivss tiian !?200,000, I was tired after my jom'nev, and I wanted to get .something to
drink. He said that he had nothing to drink and that it was a proliil>ition State,
.lust across from the city is Nebraska, miuI of conr.se 1 did not know what was the state
<it' affairs there ; he, however, said that there were no bars there. I then said that T
tiiiiught this was a country of lil)erty. H(> asked where 1 came from, and I said Man-
itiilia : and he inrpiired alwjut two or three ju'ople in Manitoba. He then told me to go
to tlie doctor and get a prescription, and that would last me as long as I was in the city,
and I could always get it filled at the drug store. [ asked him as to the law, and In-
said tile hotel-keeper had been fined once or twice, but some people iiad Hotels and
salipons. These hotels, J may say, were buildings that could be removed from one vace.nt
jilt to another, and when the proprietor was fined one month, he moved the hotel to an-
other lot, and under the law lie could only be fined once a month. As a matter of curi-
iisity I went round and asked for whisky in seven places and got it, thi-n I went to the
doctor and got the prescription, in nrder to try the drug stores. Of course at the drug
store there was no trouble.
.■i088."). Was the liquor furnished ? The doctor took me in and wrote :" Spiritus
\'iii. Rectificat. two ounces," and I got it. [ jiaid for it, and of coin\se it had the <>fTect
lit' being a permanent license to myself as long as I remained in the city. The jirescrip-
timi was not taken from me.
.'5()88(). Would it be filled by any druggist? The next time I went there I stoi)ped
;ii the. hotel. They did not sell li(|Uor there. It was Sunday. I waited to .see the efi'eci
<if the law there, and I observed dozens of people at the front door of a drug store. That
was my experience there in one day. and F saw many people waiting their turn to go in.
in Nebraska they have a high license law in force, the charge for a license being Sil, ()()()
.1 year. I may say 1 was there for immigration purposes. Except in Omaha, no licenses
,ire issued to hotels and the saloons are separate.
.■50887. What flo you say was the amount of the .saloon license there ? SI, 000. The
iiotels w'(>re all around, but were without licenses.
.50888. Had you no means of testing how the law worked? — It worked Ncry well.
I went to two or three hotels and asked for liquor. They .said they did not sell liijuor,
lint that I could send out and get it.
.'50889. Did they
rge higher pr
iquor
hot
I did not .^end for it, but other parties did go ; they sent for a ])itcher of beer or
tie of whisky.
^ 25
If
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
;50890. llefeiTing to tlie Nortli-west TeiTitoiics : wluit has been your cxpeiicncc
there? — I have been all throiigli the North-west Territories since 187H.
tliert
r never t'ounil
vei'v luueh dirticultv' in f;;etting
Ft was vei'v yonv sonie-
308!J1. What did you see
li(luor there.
30892. Wiiat was the(juality of tlie li(|uor you obtained?
times, and very good at other times.
.'508!).'{. AV'iuit would be tlie (|uality obtained in the locality? Tlu)se jiarties who
got the li(iu(jr in by permits ol)taine(i it from Winnipeg, say from tiie Hudson Bay Com-
pany, often from dealers in the towns east, and of course they (tbtained good li(pior. Tf
a man c<juld nt)t <ibtain very good liipioi', lie would got a j)ernnt for two gallons of alcohol
and reduce it with watei' : but there was no such thing as getting beer in, of course.
Everybody would get in strong li(|Uor because they could oi)tain two gallons of alcohol
on the permit, and by reducing it, make it last as long as possible. Of course the people
drank a good deal of pain-killer.
iiOsyi. Was the alcohol diluted with water after it was brought in? — That I could
not say. Of course, they diluted it before they drank it. Traders and dealers would
get hold of some permits, and they would obtain alcohol and dilute it and fix it up with
tobacco. Dui'ing the rebellion I was (.Quartermaster of the '.Ust Regiment and brought
down six oi' eiglit prisoners, who were afterwards hanged at Hegina for being engaged
in the rebellion. We crossed Battle ]{iver at Battleford and left Colonel Smith witii
his regiment. We met a trader coming in from Winnipeg with whom T was already
acijuainted, and he had a trading outfit with him. 1 saw the man had twtdve barrels,
ami I asked him if there was licjuor in them. He admitted that such was the case, and
he said he wcmld make a lot of money out of the licpior. I had not tasted li([uorfor two
months, having l)een away north on the campaign. After taking some of this li(|uoi', I
went to sleep. The trader sold out this Hipior and then skipped. That is the way they
manufacture li(|Uor uj) there. There was an inducement to make a profit out of the sale,
and there was no control exercised over it.
.■?08i)5. You have mentioned in regard to pain-killer being used ?--The ])eople dmnk
pain-killei' all over the country and subseipiently the sale of it had to be stopped, and it
could only be .sold by permit.
30896. Would tiiey di'ink pain-killer indiscriminately ? — Yes. T may mention one
case that I remember. It was that of a Hudson Bay man (,n the vSaskatchewan, who
drank six or seven bottles a day of Perry Daviss pain-kill(!r.
30897. Taking your experience in all these relations, the exjiei'ience of one who has
become ac([uainted with the difl'erent systems of dealing with the liijuor traffic, do you
consider it advisable that a ])rohibitory law, a law prohibiting the importation, manufac-
ture and sale tV)r bevt'rage purposes, .should be passed for this Dominion ? -I do not.
30898. Do you think such a law would be j)ractical)ie of enfoi'cement ? — I believe
such a law would be ilesirable, if it were practicable, but I do not believe it to be prac-
ticable. I l)elieve it would be the means of giving us wor.se liquor and more crime in
every way, and it would not prohibit. I do not Itelieve it is possible of enforcement.
Smuggling and illicit manufacture would go on, particularly in the North-west country,
and the people would resort to othei- methods of obtaining licpior. Smuggled liquor
would take the place of the present supply.
30899. Sujjposing such a law were passed, would you consider it right and just that
the brewers and distillers should receive remuneration? — Most decidedly.
30900. Are there any suggestions you desire to make to the Commission in regaid
to the liquor trAthc, as to its control or management? — No. In framing the law, ] feit
that a great responsibility was cast upon me by the Province, and before framing it [
consulted the Acts of the different Provinces of Canada, and also Acts passed in the
Ignited States. T made a study of the question for some time, and 1 endeavoured to as-
certain the effect of legislation in those places. After I had completed the task, I coii-
sidereil that the Ai't was as good fin i.ue as J could make it, and a very fair one : one
that did not interfere with the liberty of the subject, and yet controlled the sale. The
number of licenses was reduced from 84 to 52. I did away with all nmsic in the saloons ;
that is with the Italian string bands, and I also abolished dice throwing and all games
RiciiAUD Latouche Tuppek.
26
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ir fxpenciicc
ty in gettinjf
V jiooi- .s(jine-
' piiities wlio
(111 Bay Coiu-
(l li([U(ii-. Tf
)iis of alooliol
ill, of iMjiirsf.
ins of iiifoliol
'se the people
That I could
Icalers would
fix it up with
and hrouiiht
leintf LMigaj^ed
i Smith with
was already
.vtilve barrels,
the ease, and
liijuor for two
this liiiuop, I
1 the way they
ut of the sale,
• ])eople flrank
iOpped, and it
icntion one
lewan, who
t?-
)ne who has
tlic, do you
ion, manufac-
do not.
I believe
it to be pi-ac-
e crime in
nforcement.
est countfy,
ggled liquor
and just that
on m regard
le law, ] felt
framing it I
massed in th(>
."oured to as-
task, I con-
aiv one ; one
sale. The
the saloons ;
nd all games
of the kind. At the same time my object was, from what I hail seen in Toronto as to
the good effect of the seven o'clock closing on Saturday night, to .secure a like pro\ isioii.
I wi.shed to allow a temperate man to take his glass, and not interfere with his liiierty
to such an extent tliat he would take a bottle of liipior home with him. This city is as
well conducted and as (|ui(?t, in my opinion, as any on the continent. The liipior law
re([uires to be enforced closely, and everything requires to be done honestly and above
hoard. I think an hotel-keeper will always object to drinking men being around liis
place, and will not give liijuor to such men unless it is proper that they should obtain it.
By Rev. Dr. Mc Lead:
.'iODOI. Were there mor;; licensed places under the McCarthy Act in Winnipeg than
there are under the present xVet ? — [ think under the ^TcCarthy Act there were two or
t liree less. 1 re(lu(;ed the number from 84 to r)2, and I think the number is now al)out ■")4.
.'iODOl.'. Then I understand that you believe in limiting the number of licenses ?
■^'cs, to the extent of providing the accommodation that people reipiire. At the sauK^
time that I reduced the number of lici-nses, V raiseil the number of rooms that an hotel
rfi|uireil to possess in order to obtain a license; I shut off all other idaccs selling licjuor,
except the seven restaui'ants of which I have spoken, and 1 repeat that I raised the
luimber of rooms that each hotel-keeper had to keep, furnislu^d for the accommodation
pf tlie public. Of course we had to look after travellers.
,'!0-)0.'?. Then the hotel-keeper had to provide a certain number of rooms as a (|iiali-
tiiation J — Yes, he has to do so now.
.■i0t)04. Why do you think it well to limit the number of places selling liipior ; « hat
is the use of such a restriction \ — The benefit is this : if you license only a ]iroper nuiiilier,
you allow the hotel-keepei' an oj)portuiiity of making an lionesl living and at the s.uik^
time observing the law, and in that way you obtain more respectable men in thi' business.
A man with a thousand dollars may open an hotel, but the niimber is jimiti'd, and of
ciiurso the number includes the best men.
."JOyOo. Would it not be well to allow sellers of liipior to o[ieii jilaces iiuliscriiiiin-
:iti'ly and compete with each other, as do men in other lines of business, and if they are
unable to compete, go to the wall, while those who ])ush business succeed .' — No, I do
nut think so, becau.se then there is an inducement otl'ercMl to sell liquor to drunken men
and keep open after hours, to have gambling in the ])lace and .so on. Of cour.se this is a
jinticular business, ami one difTerent from any other business. You may get men in it
w ho will deprive a man of his last dollar and who will violate tlie law to enable him to
u.' so, if he has a chance.
.■iO'J.J(). Is that your ob.servation of the men engaged in the business as a 4-lass ' —
There are a number of honest men in the business, as there are in any other business.
."50907. Is there a strong tendency to have the busiimss monopoli/ed by that class
of people ; — There is a tendency that way.
.■{0908. Do you think that when fewer j)laces are licensed, there is necessarily lii.ss
drinking I — Yes, in a certain sense there is less drinking, but it may be done by
more men. If you have more places, the price of li(|Uor would be reduced so that
more men could afl'ord to drink. A workingiiiaii would be able to obtain three or four
glasses, while now he- might only be able to obtain oni^ glass.
.'50909. Do you think the liceiu-- law real', restricts the trade I -
ot it.
.'50910. Does it restrict the drinker :;. siiller or both .' -A propel
not prevent the sale of liijuor, l)Ut it restricts or regulates the sale,
intemperate use of liquor ; so if there are lever ))hices selling, and they are selling only
within certain hours and on certain days, the -ale is thereby restricted and the drinking
is less. There must be a certain number of places. You must consider the population
and trade of the town, and there should not be more licenses issucnl than would enable
a man to do a respectable business, and be able to .say to any man ; " You have had
enough ; I am going to close up now."
30911. What is " enough " 1 — I suppose if a man does not know he has had enough,
the hotel-keeper should be able to judge. When a man cannot pnjnounce his " Hs " pro-
perly he has had enough. That would be one test.
27 .
A'es, I am certain
license law does
It restricts the
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
15091 'J. '*at the luitt'l-kfeper shcjuld know if the man does nf>t know? Then tlie
man is not the judge? — That is the point, of course.
H091.'J. You would place tiie res])onsibility on the seliei- ?■- - Yes.
30914. Is it your observation that the seller is particularly careful to draw the
line at tlic^ riglit jiiace? — Many of the sellers are so and a great many are not. There
are a great many who do draw the line, l)ut I cannot .say the proportion.
30915. Is it a provision of the license law that a seller should not sell to a man
who is drunk ? — Yes.
:{Oyi<). Do you think that is a wise provision ? — Yes, you will find that provision
in the Act. In regard to hotels, I may .say that tliei'e are only two hotels (h((cause even
a respectable man may have the misfortune of going on a spree once in a while and may
even have to be interdicted,) that would not refuse to give drink to persistent di-unkards
on simple notice being given. Instead of giving notice of interdiction, which of course
woultl be known to the public, I took the troul)le myself in one ea.^c of going to the
pi'ojtrietors of hotels, asking them if instead of the families notifying tiiem of interdic-
tion, they would act without it, and my re<|uest was denied by only two hotel-keepers,
all the rest declaiing that they would not give the man liquor. His name was not
published and liquor was not sold to him. Those two men T drove out of the business
for doing so, for they gave licjuor to a man to whom they should not have sold it.
30917. ()i cour.s{(, it would be cruel to .sell to a man already disabled ; but do you
think it is a mistake to let dealers sell to a man until lu^ reaches that point? That
would l)e a hard (]uestion to judge. The man might be a stranger, and the man who
had been properly interdicted might in some cases get enough liquor to ])lace himself in
a state of intoxication.
30918. On the Lord's Day I saw two men, one an old man and the other a young
man. both very much intoxicated on the street. Was it not a wrong act for a licensed
dealer to sell to those men, and was it not illegal? — Yes ; if a dealer ha>l sold to them.
Of course they might have taken that liquor on account of places being sealed up. I
hoard two men on Satui'day night say that as they could not get a gla.ss on Sunday, they
would get Hasks and carry them over Sunday : but that condition of things is what 1
wish to prevent.
30919. Do you think that as the law prevents the sale on Sunday so that men
could not get a glass of liipior as they ordinarily do, and they were compelled, as they
thought, to get tlasks to carry them over Sunday, it would be well to change the
law so as to enable them to get liquor by the glass instead of getting it by the flask ? —
That saloon should be closed.
30920. You think they should be under prohibition every Sunday ? — There may be
a little too nmch liberty exercised in regard to hotels.
30921. You have mentioned that you are anxious to enforce the license law so that
men could get their glass of licpior on Saturday night. What would be the advajitage of
that? -The disadvantage is that workingmen on leaving their work on Saturday night
want something to drink. They had been in the habit of visiting some of the taverns
and sjiending perhsips nO cents apiece and then going home at 11 o'clock, but when they
found that they could not obtain liipior by the glass in the evening, they each bought a
bottle, as they had to treat each other. Of cour.se they could nit take beer, so they each
had to take a bottle of whisky, which they drank (m Sunday. The result was that
they wore drinking all the ne.xt day. Such drinking causes much unhappiness in the
home and is a bad example to the family.
30922. Then you think more evil follows home drinking? — Yes, more than drink-
ing at hotels.
30923. You spoke of the adulteration of liquors in the North-west. Did you know of
tobacco, bluestone and like ingredients being used as adulterating materials there ?—
Not of my own knowledge.
30924. Do you believe those adulterations did occur ? — Yes, I am certain of it ;
that has been done, I know it hius been done. I have seen such things done any num-
ber of times, Eau de Cologne and other perfumes being used ; of course they are nearly
all composed of alcohol.
Richard L.\ToucHE TuppKii.
28
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I to a niiin
.S0925. Do you think those coinj)ounds wero resorted to in tlie North-west .'-" Yes,
l)eciiuse the people could not liuy decent liijuor there.
301)26. Was it hecause of tlit! dilKculty of gettin;,' li(pior? Their permits had run
out. Sometimes they would not have any li(pu)r in for a month or two.
-■(OD'JT. Then the .sale was in con.se(|uenee of the diiliculty of hriufjing in litiuor : did
the prohihitoiT law have any etlect on tiiat f — None wliatever ; I do not think it made
any ditlerence.
.'50ttl'8. Was that becau.se of the use made of the permit .system ,' No. .More li(|Uor
went into the North-west without permit than went in l)y permit.
;501)29. Was no attempt made to search for it '/ — Yes, tiie Mounted Police did their
duty.
.'{OS)."{0. Did they ever discovt'r any litpior? — Yes, very often.
.'{09;$1. Did the (juantity of li(juor used diminish / — It diminished as the li(|ui)r
was brought in.
.'50932. Then you think the prohibitory law liad no effect in diminishing' the sale <'
I think it had the effect of making as many drunkards as persons whom it prohil)ited
obtaining liipior.
;i09."5.3. You think the prohibition of the article makes it wanted? — 1 can iiardly
say that. I know it was felt tiuit indivi<lual liberty was being interefercd with, and
therefore men would have li(|Uor. .Men who never drank before said so : they said it
iutert'ered with their liberty, and they would hav(^ it. I was told that tin; system had
the effect on hundreds of men who considered their liboi'ty was being interfered with
and they were bound to have liquor. A number of men in this way were led to drink
wlio had never drank before.
.'50934. Then many such men undt>r a license system would never drink f— I cannot
sav that, l)ut plenty of men drank who never drank before that time.
30935. W'^as that very general f-F cannot say whether it was general or not. I
liave stated what was the general feeling in the country: it was that lii|Uor not being
allowed to be brought in here, we will have it.
3093G. Do you know whether permits wer(; issued indiscrindnately ? As yeais
went on were more permits given in later than in earlier years .' — No; I think niore per-
mits were given in later years. Since (Governor Royal took olKce, there lia\e been
fewer jiei'mits than evei' before. 1 never got but one permit in iiiy life.
30937. I have here a copy of a parliamentary report wine i goes to show that in
bS,S3,. the number of gallons of whisky, brandy, beer, wine avid the like given by permit
wast),73G gallons, and in ISilO. the nundjer of gallons issued b ■ perndt was l.*)3,t)70, a
\ery marked increase? There are several reasons fo; liiat increase.
3093S. What are they? — The I'ailway at that time was not built beyond W'ininpeg.
The cost of fi'eight was very high — three times what it \vassubsei|uently. Still another
reason is, that if the pernut was sent down by the old cart trail to the lludsim liay Co.
to (ill, a permit say for ti\e gallons, the chancers were ten to one that the li(|Uor Nvould
l)e stolen on th(! road. An additional fact is, that it would (/ost two or three times as
much. Still another reason is, that there were \ery few jx'ople in the North-west Ter-
ritories. The probiible reason was that unless you went east yourself with the permit,
the li(|Uor was almost certain to be stolen on the road.
309.39. The population lias inere; sed by two iind a half fold, but Mm; increaM; in the
number of gallons under permit is from 0,000 gallons to I •").3,000 galloas or twenty-
six times as much during later yeai's. Moreover, this was under pi^rmit, without rei'er-
ence as to ([uantities coming in by other ways'? — The cost of transportation was the
great cause of the difference.
30940. But the fact remains that you are evidently mistaken as to your l)elief that
there were more pern its issued in earlier years than in later years? I tlo not mean
what they were issuetl for; I mean according to what was asked for. I know more
permits have been refused and cut down in quantity of late years ; tluit was what 1
meant to say -it was according to applications.
30941. But you must remember that the (juantity has increased twenty-six times,
whereas the population has only increased tAvo and a half times ? — That I did not know.
29
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
i i 1
T inoaiit ill rogiird toiiuantities asked tor by individuals; the gettinj^ it in or not did
not iiialce any dillerence.
.'J0'J12. Wlietlier it was stolen or delivered, this was tlu' iiiianlity pcrniitted. It
would seem that the j)erniits have iinniensely increased. J)o you think the wholesale
manner in which the pcM'iiiits were issueil had anythiiifj; to do with the inetl'ectiveness of
the prohibitory law in the North-west ? — That T cannot say.
.SODb'l. Speaking about the Towa Act : did 1 understand you to say that a man for
viohitini,' the Iowa law would be fined but once a month / - F have never read tlu' Act,
but was told that the premises were fined monthly. The punishment for the third
oU'ence was imprisonment, but they took eare not to be prosecuted for the third ott'ence.
30944. Then no matter who sold, the eatablishment paid the fine? — Yes, only the
proprietor would be punished for the third offence. ]Ie took care not to be foumi guilty
a third time ; he would move the building to a vacant lot, and although it was the same
man who sold the li(|uor and in the same building, yet any offence was u new olFence
against that ju'oppTty.
.■?094r). Do you think it is a humiliating po.sition to be compelled to move an estab-
lishment in which you were carrying on trade — to cart a rum shop round from lot to
lot ? — The law permits it, and it does not seein to say how many times they may move.
.'{U'J4(). AVIiat were the contents of these houses on wheels?— Some had billiard
tables in the back part of the place.
U0947. Was tliere many of them around? — I do not know.
HOiMS. Did you see one ? — Yes, I was in .seven places.
30!)49. Would such an establishment l)e as large as this room? — No.
;iOy5(). Did you see any of them being removed? — No; they were all stationary
when T saw them, I only inspected them one time when I was there for an hour or two.
I looked at tiieni in order to satisfy my curiosity.
.■J0!).")1. You have spoken of your experience in the North-west during the rebellion
and you have stated that you yourself had no liquor for two months. Was liijuor
furnished to the .soldiers? — No.
.■50!ti")2. Was it a disadvantage to them? — All would have been better soldiers and
endured more if li<|uor had been served to them as a ration. Soldiers, as a rule, in com-
pany drink too much ; but if it had l)een served as a ration, T believe it would have
been a benefit.
309.");}. In Montreal the Commission i-eceived the testimony of Col. Hughes, who de-
clared that for a considerable tii'ie during the campaign neither he nor his men Imd any
lii|Uor and they were materially biitter on account of the lack of it? — W^e were with
him —the Montreal Cr)th — all 'lirough the North-west Rebellion in (General Strange's
column.
.309o4. You have stated that a jjidhibitory law would not be }a'actice,ble in .Mani-
toba? — T do not think it would.
.309"),'). Why ? — Because from all I have read and all I believe, it has not been found
to work anywhere else, and T do not think it would work well here, le.ss well here than
in most placi's. There was a time here when the number of licenses were not limited,
and when everybody sold when he chose every hour and day, but now changes have been
brought about so that the hours are limited and the days ai'e limited.
30950. Do you think the reform should go further and that the number of licen.ses
should be reduced to nil ? — No.
30957. Do you think a prohibitory law touching the manufacture, importation and
sale of liipior, if well enforced, would be beneficial? — ! do not think .so.
30958. So your belief concerning prohibition is that it would not be desirable, even
if it were practiciible? — I do not think so.
30959. You spoke of pain-killer being used in the North-west and you stated that
its use was prohibited : did the authorities succeed in prohibiting it? — I could not say.
I do not think they did.
30960. vN'ould it have been a good thing if they had been successful in prohibiting
pain-killer ?— The pain-killer went as soon as the people could get, by law, all the li(iuor
they wanted.
Richard LAToucirE Tuppkii.
30
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
or nut (lid
,t 11 niiiii for
iul the Act,
>r the third
lird ott'enw.
es, only tlic
'ound j,'uilty
as the same
new offi'iice
may move,
lad hillinrd
1 stationary
hour or two.
.sokliers and
le in Miuii-
.'tUitfil. Whidi would 1h' worse, pain-killer or whi.sky
-kill.
i)it((2. You have lioliceil, of course, the vote i;iven Ity the people of Manitoiia :
lull do you think that means in re;;ai'd to prohibition .' -T do not think it means any-
\N
tlMii;,'-
;U)!Mi;j. ^\■hat was the majority j,'i\eii in favoui' of prohihitiou ? .\ very larue
d<
'rity.
.'tU'.Mil. |)oyou think tlie jii'ople whu \(ited that way did not know what they were
[,' .' Yes ; a j^reat many were very earnest and a i,'i'eat many \oted for fun. J have
heeii told hy many jteople that they did not want [)rohihitio!), l)ut voted for it i'oi- fun.
:i()!)<i.")." Was not the majority"^in the thousands ?-Tt was l.'J.OOtJ or 14,000.
.S0!)<)(). Do you eonsider that a eonsidcrahle portion of those people voted simply
t'lir fun .' They voted without tliiiikini;. I aui satisfied that if they cauie to considei
the i|Uestion a;,'ain anil to vote a;»ain, and had the (pU'stion fairly and fully placed liefore
ilieni — which was not done last time — the majority would vote the other way. Tarn
tislied that would he the result.
.all
;iO!i<;
Have you observed that the liouoi' trade, as it exists has done anv se
iijury or liad any injurious (
Jl'ect
on social
d business lifi
>n the morals ot' tli
people at lai';,'e ?— I cannot see that it has. The abuse of litjuor certainly has.
.30'.)'')S. You say the abu.se of li(|uor has I Yes.
.'{O'.Mil). I understoofi you to say tiiat you were the author of the present law ' -.
Yes, before certain amendments were carried. 1 svr s the author of the law passed l)y
tlie Mouse of Assembly, after the Mc(!arthy Act.
01*70. Till' jiresent law is the same, with i-ertain amendments introduced'?- Not
.Mr. Leacock, who was then a meml)er of the House, revise<l it
tl
le same alto<'eth(
ifter T 1,'ot it into shape for liii
'.()!)71. You drafted it, I believe, at tl
le su''<;«'
Uisel
t the 1
)ro\ isioii
that
stion of .Mr. \or(|
nay
Did
enal)les counties and parishes to liavc prohibition under that
law, by refiisinif licenses ; or w;is that pro\ ision afterwards inserted
wards put in.
That
was attei-
.■iO!)72. Is that
I good ]irovision, in your opinion
Id.
it think so.
.■iO!)7."{. Y''.)U think, in all places, it w.iuld be better to have the trade license.! .' —
'^'es ; because if this is not done, it causes illicit sale of li(|Uin'.
.■iO!)7l. Do you think th.; people have any ri^ht to have a \(iice in the matter of the
sale of liipior f — The signature of fifteen out of the nearest twenty neiglibouis aic
iiMjuired to secure a license, and that meant prohibition all o\-er the province, if the
people wished it.
•'U)'.)7o. There i.s no law permitting four-fifths of the people of Maiiiti>ba to refuse
licenses and thus declare for prohibition? -The law does not prohibit it.
.■iO!l7(i. T understand that there are some portions of Manitoba under the .Scott
Act. Do you know anything about that matter ?— There were two c.uinties under tlie
Scott .Vet. 1 do not know whether the .\ct has been repealed or not, but I think it has.
JUl R,'r. Or
:iO!)77. Do you
before mv time.
MrLu,l :
know how
that Act \^(l|■ke(l in tllo:
I'ountii
No ; that was
Bij Jiidyi' Mi'Uiinuld :
30978. Then you know nothing what.'xcr ab.iut the wdrking of the Scott Ai't in
those counties '/-—No ; it was before 1 liecame connected with this city. T was then on
my way west in the service of the Canadian Pacific Railway.
31
w^
ED WAUL)
follows : —
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
L. DHl'HY of Winnipeg, on ))vinn duly sworn, {|ej)o.sed iw
f}i/ Jiidyr Mi'Doinilil:
.■{0J)7'J. What is your buHiiiesn or occupation
.JOiiHO
.•JO!)H 1 ,
Yes.
of till! line,
here.
.•JO'JH.'l,
I Hill ii hi'fwcr.
How long have you resided in Winnipeg / Nearly |H years.
Have you during all that time been engaged in the ImsineH.s of a hicwcrl —
hid you conic from one of the other provinces.'
I came from England originally, hut I was ii
[ am fi'om the other side
Minnesota before f came
-CS,
II you came here
in round figures? It was vc
1)1(1 you conunence the business of brewijig wlu'
started right into the business.
.'tU'JHt. How large was your output at H
small.
;?098r). Did you make more than one kind of li<|uor J I brewed ale and porter at
that time. \ made lagtM- beer afterwards, and I have also done something in malting.
.■J0!)8(). Has your output increase<l from year to year '. Ye.s, it has increa.sed
steadily.
;50987. Can you give the Commi.ssion in round figures the ([uaiitity of your output
at the pre.sent time ? My bu.siness is about ;{00,000 gallons of ale, portei- and lager
yearly.
."10988. Of these three articles, which would Im; the largest ijuantity ? Lager would
be the largest, in the proportion of (10 of lager to 40 of the others.
30!)8'J. Taking the last five y<'ars, how would the.sc pro[)()itinns api)ly ; we; Id
there be about the (juantity you have indicated, or would there be an incrense in aii_)
one of them I The lager is gradually increasing ; it has gradually gone aheiul of the
others.
30990. You say you make malt ! — Yes, we produce it nearly all here ; occasionally
we may run short and may have to get a few carloads from Ontario.
30991. Do you buy your barley here? — Yes.
.•?099J. Is it barley raised in the Province ? Yes.
30993. Will you tell the Commission what has been your annual consumption of
barley for the last five years ? — Last year I purchased aliout 35,000 bushels of barley in
the Province.
30994. What price did you pay ? — Last yeai- barley was low ; it was .30 to 35 cents
per bushel.
30995. Do you obtain a good class of barley here? It was very good last year ;
often it is a little discoloured. Last year I may say that it was 'emarkably bright.
3099(5. Do you use hojis? We get them from the east and from the cither side of
tlic lint. We do not rai.se hops in Manitoba yet.
30997. How many men do you employ in your establishment ? — 35 to 45 men.
30998. Is your brewery situated within the city limits ?- Yes ; when I started
business it was outside of the city limits, but the limits have been extended consider-
ably and my brewery was taken in.
30999. Is your ale, porter and lager consunuHl entirely within the pro\ince, oi' do
you ship to other points ? -We .ship all over the North-west and to British Columbia,
but not very much to the Eastern Provinces.
31000. Has the change in the law of the North-west affected you materially ? VVe
found ft remarkable difference in 1889, when the 4 per cent beer was allowed, and the
pei'mit system was extended so as to allow that 4 per cent beer to come in ; that gave a
great impetus to the brewing business of Winnipeg, and we got the benefit of that
change quickly.
31001. What was the 4 per cent beer; was it something you manufactured
specially for the Territories ? — I fancy the object was to allow light beer to be brought
into the Territories.
Edward L. Dkury.
82
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No 21.)
A 1894
io to ;io wilts
.'ilOdJ. 'I'lir iril«'iitii)ti. tlifii was tii iillnw li;;lit hccrs lo In- ln'oiij^lit in Mini ti> shut
out tli« lioiivicr l)c«>i'H ,' I til Ilk (lovci'iior Koval's liittMitioii in tui<iii;{ i |ici-
cfiit iiH II iimxiinuin whs tlmt lit'cr ot" ooiisidcnililf stii'ii;;tli should not Ix' lirouKlit
into the Northwest 'rfiTilnrics.
:t|0().t. I iindci'stooii you to siiy tiiat you have ton rid your Iriidi" iiicri'asiii^' .' A
■,'rcal deal of li(|uor wii.-. sent in iitidcr that provision. A s|)C('iRi iicriiiit was. of
t'oui'sf, r('i|uii'fd foi'stroiiL:; ale a doiiit>stiu permit, wiiicii woidd Ih> for one liarrci of
idc for doiiiestif use. 'I'htf I pfr cent licer was mad*' for s<>ilin;; in the Territories.
.'tlOOl. How many lirewcrifs air tiiere in tlie proviiu'e.' Tlu'i'i' are seven.
.'l|()()."i Is your iireweiy the liiiLfest ,' Yes.
.'ilOnCi. Ha\(' you, us a eiti/.eii of \Viniii|ie;;, noticed the wiu'kinj; of the license law
li"re : have you found it work satisfactorily.' I think so; there have heeii cliani,'es
made from time to time, and I think the license law is working very \M'11. It (iromi.ses
to he somewhat strintieiit in .s(»ine respects, hut I recollect that we lia\t' to make laws
for ail kinds of people and for ditl'erent conditions, and. moreo\er, al
laws iiiiM
to \\i
formed as to he capahle of enforcement when |ilaced on the statuleUook. We have
a law airainst sweaiin;; on the streets. If that law was rij;idly enforced, it would
re(|uire a laryer armed force than we have now in the province. It is so also with
respect to some provisions of the li(pior lictMi.se law that appear to he very strinj,'ent.
.'MOOT. So far as apjx'ars outwardly tlie law is well ohserved ? I think
I
no occasion to thin
k oth
;ilO()S. Have you travelled in Knj;laiid, and the I'liited States ami othi-r countries
reat deal : and if so, do you Kiid this city compare with other cities as rejjard.s the
tempefiince haliits of the people'/ It compares very favourahly : T do not know a mi
.•tahl
orderly. i|Uiet and respectable city anywhere than >> innipe;^
W
.•51UU!I. Have vou .see
n anythini; nf the workinu' of a |
■ohihitipiv law in
any
country '. No.
."tlOlO. Did you sm' such a law in force in the North-west Ten itories .' Yes. I
was in Calfiary duriiif; the ]ierio(l (»f the prohihitory law.
.'UOl I. Were you able to form an opinion as to wliether it was ohserved or not ! -
I found plenty of drinkini,' there. 1 found il dillicult to <;et beer, but there was plenty
of whisky to be liad. I asked a man if I could not ;,'ei a ;;lass of ale, and he told me
that a heavy tine was levied for sellin;,' porter or ale, and he (rould not run the risk of
bein;; caujfht. There was any amount of whiskv to be had. hut the lighter bcNcrages
were dillicult to obtain.
.'5101 L'. Have you lived in any country where the people used lii;lit wines and ales
at the table as an ordinary drink .' In the I'nited Stati's layer is the universal
beverage. The consumptioii reaches li' gallons per capita per annum.
.'UUl.'}. Have you had reas(Ui to observe the ell'ectof the use of lag;!f on the people,
whether there is less drinking than formerly '. — I have never seen any greater degree of
drinking in conse(|uence ; they seeiii to be an energetic, go-ahead race, and a great many
of (lur people seem to think the I'liiled States a tine place to go to. Too many of them,
I am siirry to say. have that o|)iniiiii.
."{1014. Has your attention been called to the (piestion whether liijUors have been
•idulterated oi' not ( I do not know anything in regard to that matter. I know
■>civ little about strong lii|Uor. 1 do n<it think there is any opportunity toadullerato
beer.
• I 101."). When the prohibitory law was in force in the Xorth-wcsl. were many per-
mits sent to you to he tilled ; -I obtained ([uite a number : (piite a nuiiiher were; sent to
IMC. ncme for strong liipior, hut simply for ale or beer.
•'ilOU). Have you ever lived in a community where high license was in force? No.
."51017. Then you do not know any city in which it is in operation? It is in force
ill St. Paul, where T am interested in business, and in fact iny father is located there.
.'51018. How is the sy.stcni found to work? Well, the dealers have to pay more into
the city treiisury. I believe there is a good deal of illicit sale going on there on account
of it.
."5101" Have you ever considered this ([uestion : if the Legislature shall aholish either
the hotel bar or the saloon or restaurant har, which would it lie better to dispen.se with^
33
21—3**
;! ii
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
— I do not sec any (lifl'creiK'e. I tliink restaurants are more necessai-y, especially in a
coniinunity where a great many travellers arrive and depart, for they enable visitors to
get meals at all hours, and in this way prove a great convenience to travellers. 1 repeat
that I cannot see any difference.
.■n020. n? course you have ti'avellers who stay in the city a short time .'- Yes.
;il021. v\'ho simply take a meal or two and then get on the train and leave the
city? — Yes. It is of c;)urse a great convenience to pr(jfessional men who are detained
in coni't, for example, to be able to get luncii at any time, and in fact the restaurants
have always been considei'cd to be a great convenience. The nund)er of these licenses
is limited here, thei-e oidy being one I'estaurant license issued for every eight hotels.
'iH)'22. What is your opinion as to the granting of compensation to brewers and
distillers in the event of the enactment of a prohibitory law '/^ In my opinion, .ill fair-
minded men will take the same ground, that as the business has l)een sanctioned by law
and with the ai)proval <jf the people, compensation should be granted if permission to
continue the business is withdrawn. It is, however, hardly nece.ssary to discuss that
phase of the question, in my opinion, for the ccintingency seems to be veiy remote.
J5// J^rv. Dr. McLod :
.■<1023. How many men do you employ '/ — From .'$5 to 4") men.
.•51021. What is your output at the present time ?-- About ."500,000 gallons.
.•{1025. About what is its value? From SI2."),U00 t . J^ino.OOO a year.
,'{|02(). And is that sold principally in Maiutoba .' — Y'es.
.•)1027. .Speaking about your sales in the Xorth-west Territories : have your sal(\s ami
shijiinents of beer to tiie Territories increased of late years? They have increased very
nuich. Of course prior to 18S!) they were (piite limited. Aftei- the four per cent license
law came irito force they materially increased, in faci that was the commencement of a
large l)usiness with the Territories.
;}!02S. Wiien did that take place.'— In 18811.
;{102y. Was beer sent there as foui' per cent beer ? Yes, Thei'e were i\\d kinds
of permits. One was granted to hotels, and they paid 10 cents per gallon and were thus
enabled t(t obtain a sup])ly of four ]ier cent beer f()i' sale. For domestic permits no
charge was made by the (ioverinnent, and ])ri\ate parti"s who wanted ale or spirit were
abk to get it in without paying the tioveimnent anything. The tiovernment exacted
the 10 cents per gallon from hotels in lieu of a licen.se.
.'HOIJO. What was tiie a\erage (juantity coveied by a permit /
gallons of ale, which would be a barrel.
310;51. Has the ipia-itity \aried of late years, and if so, which
license law came into eH'.ct t!ie (jUantity has, of course, increa.sed,
people bou d't 100 to ;!0(> gallons.
.'510.S2. \Ver<' the ipiantities small jirior to that time? Prior to the 4 per cent
arrangement the (piantitif's sent^ there, you say, were small compaiatixely .' Yes ; they
were, at all events, much smaller. < )f coui'se, T had nothing to do with li(|uor ])ermits.
;3l0."5.'i. Hail you re;ison U) believe that (|uantities were sent into the Tei-ritories
without permit.",? T have no doubt of it. \Ve never sent ip any, b'lt it was not f( r
lack of opportunity, and I niiiy say, with much satisfaction, that we utver \ iolated the
law in any wiiy, cu' the permit .system.
.'ilO.'M. lla\e you reason to believe liiat tluu'c was much sent in improjx'rly .' -
There was more .sent in than appeared, for there was no trouble in sending it in, except
as regards beer and ale.
■'{103."). \''ou have spoken about the good order prevailing in \\'iiniij)eg. l)o you
attribule that desii-able condition of .ili'aiis to the pie\ ailmg and uniform temperance
sentiment that is observable in the community? 1 think it is owing to tlie peopk;
thenisches. Jf the large majoi'ity of the people were not in favour of ([uietness, sobi'iety
iind order, ihen i>f course we would have a ditlerent state of allairs.
.'HO.'ili. Or do you at ribute it to the regulation of the tratlic .' That may have
sonietliing to do with it. We all recognize the desirability of a certain amount of regula-
tion.
Enw.Md) L. I>i{i'uv.
It ran about .'50
way ' — Since the
)ecause then the
57 Victoria.
Sessional I Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
111 about 30
310.'}". Would you tiljolish the wliisky trade — of course I am aware you aie not in
till' whisky trade /^T would uot like to say that. I iievei' use whisky iiiyselt'.
.SIO-'IS. Do you think tiic wiiisky trade is a henetit to the conununit.y ? — I would
iiol like to say : 1 think li(]iior is henefitial. Soiiie {leopie are ot opinion that spii'it-
uoiis li(|Uoi'K are henelicial, while others think tiiey are injui'ious, hut we have all to
/issuine a certaiii amount of responsibility.
.■flO;}!). Looking; at the subjt^et in a liroad li.ijht. do you think the trade in aleoholic
lii(iii.rs is beneH(;ial to the connnunity or injui'ious? -That would be ditKcull to say witli-
(lUi ex|)laiiatiiin. We can only Judf^e l>y wliat we have, and to make a ehaiiue hy wiiicli
vou compel every man to do away with what he has been aceustomed to ordinarily use, is
to take a step T have never heard of ; ami, conseipiently, it is impossible for me to
judi,'e whether tlie pe'i|>le would be lietter oft!
.S1U40. Then you can not fompari- the two systems, or say whether yon have (ibser\ "d
if tiie trallic, as it is carried on, is an injury/ 1 think a ^'leat many sensitive people aie
injured by not usin<>' li(|Uor in moderation. 'J'lieir V(>ry .seiisiti\en(!s,s previMits tl\em doint;
so, as well as the sti;.rma that is placed on jieojile wlio use liiiuor.
.'5104 1 How do you account for that stigma attai liiiiji to any <ine?- -I do not know.
The advocates of the other side of the (|uestion are respniisible f')r it. I am not plac-
im,' a sti^'iiia on it. it is often jireachcd aj^aiiist, and no doubt a number of people have
collie to placo a stigma on tlu! use; of li(|Uor ami on its elfects. I repeat that a great
many sensitive men and women would be greatly benefited by the use of it.
.'ilOl'J. Do vou bi'liese that tlie\ have facts on which they base their declarations .?
No doubt there are lots (»f examples, and of course there are plenty of temperance lec-
turers always ready to recapitulate them.
•'iiO-).'! In some parts of this country and in some parts of the L'nited States
brewers are really the proprietors of a number of restaurants and bar-roums. Is that
true ill regard to Winnipeg?- — It is not the case here. 1 am interested, in some by way
of security. 1 am also interested in one hotel projx'rty, of which my brother is the
ev.iier. This is not nearly as much the case iiere as on the other side of the line, but in
F.iigland o. course it is much more generally the iiractice.
.'51044. Of cour.st! therc^ is a good deal of it in the I'nited States and also in some
iiarts of Canada .'--Thi're is not much of it here.
•■)104r). Then this is the state of tliinj.
(juite the exception.
the
s l;"rc ill ^^■illllipeg '.- It is not : such a case
(pi'der here, in part, to the regulating of the
•'ilOKJ. Then you attribiiti
trafhc .' --Yes.
•■U047. Why do you think the trallic should be regulated why is it ned'ssary to
ii'ijulate it .' — IJecause we have to take care of tlio.se who do not know enough, and tiie
law must in sciiiie way regulate tiieiu. 1 belie\e such regu'ations are necessary for some
pcciple. I tiiiiik it is desiraltle. tor instance, to ((impel salo >ns to close jit eiexcn o'clock
at night, for, in my opinion, it is proper that men should leave at that time. It is time
for a man to return home; of ('(iiirse, the large m.ajority would leave often before that
lime, but there are a few who would hang on, and it is jiroper for the law to make
ceitain regulations. The hotel men are .ill united in desiring that some re'.:ulation should
be made and enforced. They recogni/e, as every one outside of the laisiness must, thut
certain regulations are desirable and neces.sary, an<l there has never been a light here in
(•(iiinection with liills presented to the Legislature, nor liaxc t lie hotel men sought in any
uay to bring about a dill'erent state of alVairs.
•'UOIS. Then you faxoiir the prohibition of the whisky trade, I mean the Ir.ide in
^tidii.; drink '. I would not like to go that far. I have said that I do not taste whisky
iMVM'lf : still I am not a judne as to whether it is beneficial or otiierwise for those who
do Use it. I think a good many peo]ilc are benefited by the use of it.
•'ilDIU. Do you think iijore are benefited by its use than are injured by its use
That I cannot tell.
■'U0")(). Do vou know of any other legalized liiisiiK'ss of a like character to the
trallic ! .Vo. I do not know of a business of a like character.
•'tl().")l. Have you formed an opinion as to whether the tendency of the
trallic is strongly evil ?^l do not think it is stroi'gly evil.
35
li.pior
ii(|uor
I
ll'-
21— 3 J
#*
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
31052. Why should it lie restricted iis it is restrietetl? Uecaust- it is necessaiy.
.'H0r)3. Why should the nieii eujiugcd in the business suhniit (|uietly to restrictions
beinji placed about tlie trade? — JJecause tliere are some men wlio liave not suHicient
control over themselves, and 1 believe tiuit restrictions are necessaiy. Tiie law is not
interfei'inf5 with private rif^hts ; an<l the majority «.!:' the people reco;;nize that some-
thinjf of tiie sort is ]irobably necessai'v in ordei' to protect tiiose who iiavt; not suttit-ient
control over themselves and prevent them sittint; ail niglit in a place. 1 do not think
it is good for a mati to remain all nigiit in a bar-i'oom, away from his family. I think
the places should l)e closed by a certain hour and the men be coni|)elled lo go iiome,
if tiiere is no othei' way of inducing them to do so. It would not be well to remain in
a gi'ocery or dry goods store : of cour.se, it does not seem necessary to restrict the hours
in those estalilishments.
.■?10r)4. Do you see a diH'erence in tiu' two iiraiiches of business ; I can see tiuit
men Hnd it more congenial to be at the otiier jihice.
.■510.*»r). |)o you tliink it is more beneticial .' No. 1 do not : that is tiie reason 1
think tiiey shoulil be home.
;UO."i(). I do not need to ask whether you lielieve in proiiiliition .' I do not. Speak-
ing outside of my liusiness, 1 may say tliat I do not iieheve in prohibition, becau.se 1
think a great many people are benefited by stimulants, which ai'e universally u.sed by
tlie human race and which people take almost instinctively, '{'he desire exists in all
classes and in all < onmiunities. it exists among tiie weaker sex, but tiiey are satisfied
witii tea. Of course tea is a stimulant, but a \ery niodei-ate stimulant. Tea, F repeat,
is a moderate stimulant, but it ajipears to be sutlicient for the opposite sex. Men, I
claim, want something stronger, and they iiave gone in for beer, wine and wliisky.
310.j7. I>o you think it is proper to provide for that taste? — f think you can go to
exce.ss in almost everything, and it is the immoderate use of stimulants that causes the
trouble and not tiu' projier use (if tiiem. They were provided to be mafle good use of
and to benefit the huuuin race.
.■?1058. You have stated that in case a general ]irohibitory law was enacted, com-
pensation should be given to the men engaged in tlu^ brewing and distilling trades. Do
you pay a license from year to year to the Government? [ do.
."JIO.")*). What is the amount of the license ? — About J^'iOO a year for the brewery
and malt-house.
310(50. And a license for one year dties not entitle you to a I'cense for another year,
I sujipose ? — \'es : it is continued.
.31001. You entered upon thi> business of brewing knowing there was a growing
.sentiment against it? When I took hold of my business, IS years ago, I started out in
good faitli, and workeil hiird, and J ha\t' put in the best years of my life in I'onnection with
it. 1 have thus built up a very successful business ; and although there may be a grow-
ing sentiment in favour of temperance, I think one is about keeping pace with the other,
and looking :it the matter (lisp;issionately. I judge that "-"i to SO per cent of the popida-
tion use stimulants in one way or another.
310112. Do yon belie\e they aie better for doing so ' Some are and others are pr<i-
bably injured. A man must as ume a certain moral res]>niisibllity, and if he injures
liimself, lie should not make others sutler for him.
.31003. Hut you think it is well to regulate the sale ! I do.
31004. ^'ou think it would be well to regulate the consumption of tlie stimulants?
— if you could sell only to those who would be benelitted, there would be no necessity to
provide that those who would be injured should leave it alone.
•3|00"i. Would it not be well to regulate the tea business f I have seen some articles
in which ladies tliein.sehes have deprecated the immoderate use of tea. Some statements
in the papers reporting a recent tea sale show that an article is sold that is not bene-
ticial.
3l0(i0. Then you think the use of tea has produced ellects t'lat would sanction the
enactment of laws ^e^ulating the sale of tea as they regulate the sale of iicjuor '. I
would not consider myself to be a judge on such matters.
310(i7. I )o you think the two cases are parallel to a certain degree f .\s they are
butii stimulants, t he cases are certainly parallel. 1 simply mentioned this matter t,o
EUWAKI) !.. DillHV.
36
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
slidw tliiit tlici't' \v;is ii (Ifsii'f (111 the {)iirt (if the huniiin nice for stiimilaiits of soino soi't,
and to show that even ten will satisfy that craviii;i; to a certain extent. I myself use
more lea tlian anything' else, so I am not runniii<r down tiie use ot tea particidarly.
]ijj Jiiihii' Me DiitKilil :
.'ilOtiS. TakiiiLt tlie i)i'o])oi'tion of people who use stimulants, is there a larite |>ro-
jiintioii addicted to intemperance.' -No, I do not think so.
.'510<»i>. Take the ale you sell: from your knowledjL(e of the peopleand the u.se made
of li(|Uors, do you lind a large [ercentage of the people who consunu; it are jipople who
;■ ■ .ddicted to intemp(>raiu'e arjd drunkenness ? -No, I think th<> j)ercentage of those
who use licpior in some form or other intem)perately, is a vei'v small one.
.'ilU7(l. r understand hy y(air evidence that while the consumption of sjiirit uous
]ii|ii<ir is \cry large, there is a very small percentage of |)eople i-eally injured hy the use
of them .' I think so.
."ilU"!. You spoke of ha\ ing seven breweries in ^lanitolia and that yours is the
largest : have you any knowledge of the number of men employed in the se\eii breweries
altogether '. I do not know exactly : 1 employ pi'obably more men tlia'i are employed
liy the otiiei' brewers altogether.
;il07L*. Then the other breweries are in asmall way of business .' — Yes ; there is one
other here that is (juite a large concern, but the other breweries are small.
Iil07.'{. Do you know how many men are employed in them altogether, or would
the others tak'Mi together ei|ual the num..er of men you emjiloy '. That would be the
else I should judge.
;il074. HaNcyou any suggestion to offer to the Connnission .' None that I am
aware of.
.'il07-"). We shall i)e glad to receixc any suggestions from you .' 1 am (piite satisfied
with the present license law, and I should like to see it fairlv enforced.
!'
Itarted out in
meet ion with
ly be a grow-
ith the other.
le statements
Isanclion the
matter to
T1I():M.\S M.XoN, of Winnipeg, Hight of Way .\gent for the C.P.ir Omipany,
on b'iiig duly sworn, deposed as follows :
Bjj J iKhji M<- Ddiiiihl : •
■U07(). How long ha\(' you resided in Winnipeg .' IS yeai>.
•'{1077. Was that the first place in which you I'csided after you came to Manitolia ?
^'cs. and I have resided here evei' since.
.'il()7S. j)uring all that time haxc you been engaged in your present occupation?
I was paymaster and purveyor for the t'amidian Pacific Railway under the (}o\'ernmeiit
anil then I became right of way agent.
;iK)7it. So in vour oi'cupation you travel al)out a good deal, 1 suppose.' Yes.
•'ilOSO. How far does your district cu .' l''rom Port ,\rthur to l>onald. However,
I do not hav(- so much to do in the North-west Territories, the land there lielonging to
the (!o\erimu'iit, the Canadian Pacific IJailway or the Hudson Hay Company ; 1 do not
lime nnich to do beyond the limits of this I'roviace.
.'llOi'^l. Take the city of Winnipe.i; : do you think the license law is well observed
lii'ic ! I do not.
HIOSi'. Will you kindly state to the Connnission in what way you considei' it is not
observed. In the first place, in regard to the law im Sunday ; how do you think the law
is carried out in that respect? in my opinion it is a matter of judgment, and as 1 do
mil go ai'ound nnich I cannot say ; but 1 have heard from others that you could get
lii|Uor at nearly every hotel, although jiroperly speaking no saloons shoidd sell.
.'ilOS.'i Then your e\idence on this point is merely hearsay .' It is only iiearsay.
^iltlSb I )o you see nnich drunkenness on Sunday '. No, I do not, I walk to church
oil a certain street and walk iiome again.
W
iilii
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
;U085. Do you know svlicther you Imve any trouhle in tliis city in tlie direction
of Siiles to minors, youn^ nian under aj^e ! — I do not tliink tliere is, T liave no knowledge
of that [ ^sonaily.
.'51080. Have you any leason to believe that adulterated li(iuars are sold ( — I do not
know anything about that matter.
.■}1087. Then nothing of the kind has come under your notice? — No, I have not
heai'd of it.
.'51088. Have you noticed in regard to the closing of the licensed hou.«ies on week
days, that they are closed at the hours ineiitic>ne(l in the law ? T have noticed that they
were ojien.
.'51089. Do you mean that they were open after the hours fixed by law .' Yes.
.'51090. Are there any others matters in connection with the licenses to which yoit
desire to draw attention?- There are none that \ know of.
.'51091. Are you ojiposefl to a licen.se law ? Yes.
.'51092. If you had to (;hoose between a license law and indiscriminate sale of liquor,
which would you j)i'ef(M' (- I would choose a licen.se law.
.'5109.'5. Why would you prefer a license law to indi.scriminute sale? Because 1 do
not think we should take money from an e^■i] thing.
:51094. Then you think the license law to be a sin, I suppose? — Most assuredly I flo,
;5109J). Therefore, if tliere is such a law in force, you look upon the conmuniity as
having done that which is sinful ? I do.
.'51090. Following up that line, J suppose you would rather have prohibition than
either of them ? Most assuredly 1 would.
.'51097. Do v'ju consider jn'ohibition desirable '. I do.
.'51098. Do you consider it practicable >. 7 do.
.'51099. Would there not be great ditliculties in enforcing such a measure? There
would not be if the (iovernnient gave the necessary machinery and aid that we would
ask for, officers to see that the measure was enforced. W"- have not eiiough to see that
the license law is enforced, and if 1 am coi'reet in niv view, it is not enforced I y otlicers,
.'51100. Is there no police otlicer in the city to look after the law? 1 believe not.
."51101. Have you no Inspector ? We have an I nsjx'ctor of Licences I l)elieve : but
he is not a policeman.
.'5110L*. Does he look after the enforcement of the license law f I ciiinotsayin
regard to that.
3110."5. ]^o you think one policeman can efficiently look after that work / No. 1 am
not sure 1 am cori'cct, but I beliexc the License Inspector is tl e Inspector for the
■whole province.
.'51104. Do you know if he has any deputies liei-e ( ! do not know,
.'5110"). How would you have policemen apiiointed : would y^u have them appointed
by the Dominion (iovernnient, by the province or !)y the municipality? 15y whatever
botly 1 ad the powi^' of enacting the. prohibition law.
;51iOl). I5y wiioin would you Innc those pciicenien paid? I>y the (Jovernnient.
.'51 107. l>o you think the smuggling of ii<|Uor wonici be assuredly prevented if there
was a sufficient force of oHicei's a])pointi'(| ? 1 think so.
.'5110S. What would be a sufficient force ; would the same nunilier as is now used
to prcxcnt smugg'ing be sufficient ? i do not tl .nk any more men would be ri^piired.
•'51 lost. J)o you coMsidei- there would be illicit manufacture, for of course any
manufacture of alcohol would be illicit? Would tliei'e be illicit stills established all
fiver the counti'v, and would they have to be looked after? Yes ; theiv an- .some such
now, but they are in a sniiiil way.
.'!! I 10. Have you considered in that connection the ([uestion of granting compen.sa-
tion i,o br(>w ers and distillers in the e\ent of the enactment of a piMhibitory law ? — I
would not com[)ensate them ; tiieir licen.ses only extend from year to year.
•'51 1 1 1. Have you observed or formed an (Opinion a.s to the ellect upon the country
of their tr.ide, whether it is favouiviiih' or unfavoui'able ?
unfavdurable.
.'51ir_'. Do you think the ett'ects obserxcd liavt
TiioM.\.s Ni.\ox.
88
I think it
leen injurious?
most decidedly
Y(
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ihitioii tliait
nnot sav in
."{111.'?. Ill wliat respects? — Take this city. No less than a ([uai'ter of a million ot"
<lollars arc spent in this city every year.
.'Ul 14. Is that bar drinkin;:; ? — Yes, it is bar di-inkiiii,'. Tiiat <iuaiter ot' a niillinn
of (iollai's, if a prohibitory law was enacted, would be spent on clotiiing, bouts atid shoes,
furniture and other necessaries.
.'il I 1"). What becomes of that money now ? — The brcwei's j^et it, the distillers get
it and the publicans get it. The horsemen get it in the shape of bettin^r, and tlieiH! are
varidus ways in wliich it goes in the form of gambling.
.'H 1 H). You do iu>t think it finds its way into general circulation.' Nut into the
circulation I should like to sei> it given.
.'!! 1 17. Apai't from that, are there any injurious etlects on [)ersons, except as regards
bar drinking? Yes: i is the fact that men do not pfiy their debts. T am in tiie
solicitor's ofKce of the C^anadian Pacific llailway Comjiany, and I know there area large
nunii)er of garnishees for the non-payment of small debts wiiich the men owe. There
aic a good many of these men who, if they would leave liquor alone, would not be gar-
iiisheed, but would be able to j)ay their debts.
311 liS. Do you speak from your own knowledge ? — Yes.
.'H 1 19. Would there be any otiier reason 1 — T do not know of any others at the pre-
sent moment.
.'51 120. Do you think illicit sale of li(|uor prevails to any great extent in the com-
numity ?- -1 do not think so.
iUllil. The licen.scd houses meet the re(|uirements of the population? Yes, very
fully.
;}lll.'"2. Have you ever considered tiie (piestion of the treatment of the persistent
drunkard? Have you lived in Toi-onto?- Yes, for years.
.'3lll.'.'5. No tloubt you are aware that there ar(! certain classes of people who are
constantly being committed to prison for short terms and who aft(!rwards reappeai- before
the ]ioiice court ? -Yes. I knew the celebrated Harry HeniT, who was up 14.") times.
31124. It lias been suggested in regard to such [leople that while the license law
exists, it would be fai' betler for the population if such people were shut up for consider-
able jjeriods .' -[ think it would be.
•")112."). They seem to be const'intly travelling lietween the jail and the saloon? -
Yes ; but they will not d(> this if you will give us proiiibition.
.'51120. \\'liile tlie license law exists, would it not be better to have such men sent
to an institute and have them pi'operly treated? Y^'s, send them to an asylum.
."51127. You would, no doubt, hope that such men would be got rid of if prohibition
was enacted? I think they would lie.
151 12S. Do you suppose you could have a prohibitory law that would do away with
(h'inkiiig altogether? No, I would be very sorry to s.iy .so ; 1 do not hope foi' such a
lesult, biit T may say that T have been in a j)rohibition city.
•")ll2i). Where was that? In Pasadena, California. While there for two months,
.ind having nothing to do, T made it my special business, except on Siiiidays, to go in
and out among the people and watch tb operation of the [irohibition whii.'h was in
npci'ation there.
•'il |."50. How did y<ai find it work .' — Kcmarkabiy well.
■'5ll.'5l. The celebrated Haynioiifl hotel is there: is tiiere no liijuor sold tiici-e .' — Not
except by permits. There are live drug stores thiTc.
.'5I1.'52. is it sold as medical permits re(|uii'e, and ai'e they given in ail cases for
lii|Uor? Or is it possible to obtain lii|Uor at the drugstores as a beverage ? — It is not.
.■51I3;5. What is the population of that city ?— i(),OOU. That was tlie tliird season
I was thei'e.
31134. Are the jieople |)('rmitted to have li(|Uor in their own cellars for tiieir
pri\iile use?— No.
311.3.'). I suppose they cannot bring in any for tlieii' j)ri\ate use' from other places?
^'es, but it must not be exposed for sale.
31 13(1. Do you call that i>rohibition > - Yes, I th).
31 l.'57. Is tliat the kind of prohibition you wish for this country ? That is the kind
of prohibition I should like. D would do awav with the manufacture of lii|iior.
H9
^niii
111:
.i'i
Liquor TraflRc — Manitoba.
.'Ul.'};''. S(( tlif pi'dliihitioii you wish would permit tlie seller to obtain lic|U()r for
his own ])riv{it(' use and to keep it in the cellar and ifive it to his friends? — If we can
do away witii the nianufaeture of li(|uoi- there will nut be much in the country, T presume.
311.'iit. That is the main point of the law ; a man may ha\e as much as he wishes
for his pri\ ate use, and he can obtain it from Montreal or Boston or where he pleases and
bring it into the city/ — Yes.
.■}1140. Would you lie satisfied with that kind (^ prohibition? f would foi- the
present.
.'U141. That is really the Scott Act? -I w-ould be satisfied with it for the present.
M 14-. Do you kn<)'»v where such a l.aw is in force ?— No, T do not.
.S114;i. Have you been anywhere where high license prevails?- No, 1 have not.
.■U14+. Have you ob.served how the present mode of obtaining licenses is working?
— No, 1 have not ))aid any attention to that matter.
3114"). Have you formed an opinion as to whether a I'estriction of licenses wouhl
1)6 desii'able .' — I |)resume it would be, if we are to continue to have li<iuor.
31140. Have you ever consitlered the aflvi.sability of pionioting the use of light
wines and beers in preference to strong li(|Uors? — I have not ; I would be a little afraid
to do that. Not on account of the wine, l)ut on account of the beer (|uestion.
."51147. In what way ? The tirinking of beer is a greater detriment even than the
drinking of sj)irituous li(piors.
31 148. From your knowledge of people and fannlies, have you found such to be the
cn.se ? — -Yes.
31149. Would mor»' drunkenness grow out of beer drinking? — Yes, boys leai'ii to
drink beer, and these boys by ;Mid by becv»me drunkards.
31150. Taking your experience of the use of wines, ales and liijuo's in the cnm-
lounity antl taking the people who use them, is there a larger or smaller proportion of
the people who become intemperate ? — I wculd rather think it was a smaller than a
larger proportion ; I would not like to say it Wiis a larger.
Slini. Are there not many people wlio use them? Yes. and who live to a good
old age ; but a great many die very early.
311.JL'. Such being the case, would you, against the will of those people who do use
such licjuors and are not hurt by them, take away from them the privilege of using
them ? You mean, I suj)pose, hurt in their health.
311. "')3. You are undoubtedly well aware that, as a rule, they do not take them
intcmperntcly : would you take away from those people the opportunity of using these
li(luois when they are not hurt by them / Yes ; foi- the sake of the fi'milics of tiiose
persons, althougli they may not drink themsehes.
31ir)4. You ha\(' said you would be ([uite satisfied foi- the present to have a law
which would enable the people to have all the li(juor they ' ished in their own iiouses ?
-Yes: but four-lifths of the population would not be able to do so, if their earnings
were not more than ^l.-")0, 82.25 or 82.50 per day. In my judgment, that would
(•ertainly shut those men out from having liipioi' in their cellars, and they would haxc
that amount of money to speml on themselves and on their families.
31155. Do you know any country in which what might be called acompletc prohil)i-
tory law, is in force? T know of no such country. •
3115(1. The C mission were t,old in the Mai'itime Pro\inces, by the Rev. Di-.
Stewart, that in the Fiji Islands thci'c is such a prohibitory law. I was not aware of it.
31157. If you allowed families to ha\e as much li(|Uor as they j)leased in their own
houses, would it not be possible for men to keep a certain <|Uantity of li<[uor in store,
especially of ale ? 1 do not think such peo])le w(»ulil keep nmch. I ha\f ne\er found
them forehanded enough.
3I15S. You would be in the happy j)osition of carrying a prohibition law wliidi
would pre\ent the sale, for l)everajre purpost>s, in bars or shops, in small (|uantities, and
whicii would have the result of preventing the classes of persons of whom you ha\>'
spoken, obtaining any for theii- use? Yes ; I think it would do that.
3115!). Are there any suggestions you desire to offer to the Connnission in regard
to changes in the law ! I do not know of any at present.
Thomas Nixon.
40
uses woui
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
."UltJO. I un(Jorst(tncl you wci'c opposed to a license law alto^'i'tliiM' ? Yes.
.'ilKil. Tnkinji tlie juvsent license law. do you think tlie limitation of tln^ number
..t persons who lia\(' licenses and diari^in^f a hi<;her fee. would l)e desiraltle ? I think
that would he just as danj,'<'rous as a jifreuter nuinher of licenses at tiio present time. I
think .1 better class of citizens, and prohahly a j^reater number of them, would i)e ruined
liv those saloons. Men who are able to pay !?1,000 for a license are able to jj;et u]),
what we would call, a gilded .saloon, which connnends itself to the a'sthetic tastes of
the voting men of the city, and, in my jiidgmt-nt, is more harmful than the present
-ysteni.
.'ilH)2. Then, you think, that high license is in no way beneficial ? No ; I do not
think it is beneficial.
.'il ]().'<. Would y(tu place any restrictions on the places licensed 1 Yes.
•")1 Itif. Have you ever considered the ipiestion as to whether, if one or other had to
lir done away with, it would be better to do away with the saloon, or restaurant, or
hutel .' There are no saloons here, j)roperly speaking.
.'U165. None of the old-fashioned tirinking places'! — We htive three kinds of
licenses; one class is shop licenses, and the other two classes are for hotels and
re-^taurants.
;ill()(). If either must necessarily be done away with, restaurant or hotel license,
uliich would you prefer to retain? -I think I would f)rcfer to retain the r'cstaurant
Hieiise, provided the houses close up at ])roper hours.
:U1()7. Would you rather have tlieni than iiotels ? Yes. I a.ssume that they would
close when men had got thnnigh their eating —say .seven or eight o'clock in the
e\eiiing. Of course the hotels remain open, some of them at all events, all night.
.'il IGJ^. Would you prefer allowing both to remain open the same length of time 1~ -
I do not know; that would be a pretty difficult (piestion to determine. 1 was in .Maine
about thirty years ago, having l)een sent by Mr. Abraham Fairwell, who wished me to
spend three months in going through the State. The late Honourable Mr. Cameron of
' (riniston sent two other persons down to Maine to remain three months and report how
they found the State, and whether the Maine li(|Uor law was ciirried out in its integrity
or not. Their report was to the effect that after travelling through a great many of the
rural distric'ts, they were of opinion that that law was remarkably well enforctsd.
.■5110!). Was the report submitted in writing? --Yes, it was printed.
•'U170. Is it in existence? 1 do not know.
■'51171. Can you furnish us with a copy I — I should like to be able to c)btaiii one for
tiie Commission. Mr. Fairwell is dead.
3117"2. Mr. Fairwell,! believe, was an enthusiastic prohibitiojiist? - I understand so,
•'M17.'5. r believe he devoted himself largely to promoting the prohibition cause.'
— Yes, he was enthusiastic.
31174. Will you try and obtain a copy of that report, as the Connnission will i>e
;:lad to receive it! — I will most assuredly endeavour to find one.
•'il 17."). T presume you an; aware that we have much evidence in regard to tiie pre
-cut. but not much in regard to thirty years ago? — Quite so.
.'ill7r). In regard to your (list:'ict in the North-west; 1 understand your distiict
1,'oes as far west as Donald, llaxc you made personal observation in regard to tiie
"(irking of the j)rohibitory law in the North west Territories ? No. I ha\e not.
Ihj liev. Dr. McLeod :
.'ni77. Your observation of prohibition in California was observation of '.. Locid
Option Law and police regulation. I supj)ose ! — 1 have tiie law here with ni.'. The
'iiistees of the town (they are not aldermei^ but common council men) are permitted
to adopt an ordinance, under which tiiere ai'e so called police regulations. They passeil
-iich an ordinance, tind not less than four times was an eil'ort made to upset it. but the
•■Supreme Court of California decided that it shouUI be maintained.
.'ill 78. And you think the authorities had not any serious <lifficulty in enforcing it?
They had none, as far as I could learn. I was with the policemen almost every day.
.31179. Were you able to ascertain whether public sentiment was very strongly in
fi\our of the law ? It was very str(uigly in fa\our of the law.
311S0. No doubt there were attemjits maile to violate it ?-^ Yes.
41
1
J
s
t{
■l
i
1
Liquor T aflfic — Manitoba.
;{11S1. Were the violatDis lnouglit (|ui(kly to justice'.'- They were, aiul tliey were
tilled.
3118'2, From your liirj,'e observation of the ii<iu(ir tnitlic for a iiuiuljer of years,
have you noticed that tiie trathe has serious efl'ects U]Min family life? — Yes.
.'5118;$. Wherever you have l)eeii, has buch been the case ! Yes, wherevei' I have
been, and 1 have travelled a j;oo(l deal.
.■M184. Have you noticed that not only those addicted to drink, but others also,
sutl'er lar<;ely in con.se(|Uence of this habit / -Yes, all j)arties suil'er.
.'51 IS"). ])() you think the li(|uor tratlic, as it at pre.sent exists, is a constant menace
to the home life of the country? I do.
."51 18(1. In your opinion does it involve a financial loss?- Yes.
."51 187. Are you of opinion that the money spent on lite )r is practically wasted ? -
1 am.
31188. In what does that e.xpenditure differ from that made on groceries and dry
<;oods ? -1 think people had better throw tiie money into the river than buy liipior witli
it.
.'5118!). Groceries and dry floods, I su])pose, are an eipiivalent? Yes.
."5111)0. Have you an ecpiivalent in whisky or lieer? You have not.
.■511!)1. \ think you .said you would favour a prohibitory law that would ptirmit the
purchase of liijuor and the storing of it in a cellar for private consumption. Is that your
ideal of a |)rohibitory law? — No ; it is not my ideal of a prohiljitoiy law exactly, but I
find such ditliculty in getting even goiKl men to go in for prohibition pure and sim))le,
that 1 have moditied my own view somewhat.
3111)2. And you would accept a prohibitory law that did not prohibit a man ))ur-
chasing liipior elsewhere and storing it in his cellar? — Yes, with one pi'oviso attached
that there should be no manufacture in this country, or sale.
31193. Your idea of prohil)ition is to strike ati the importation, manufacture and
sale ■'. That is right.
31 H)4. Speaking in regard to the practise of pi'ohibition, I think you said you thought
it would be [uacticable. Do you believe that there would be any greater inducement
if a prohil»itory law wei-e enacted, to snuiggle licpior than there is now? I do not
think there would be ; still there might be. 1 would rather (lualifv that answer : as
three-(iuarters of the wholesale cost must be paid in duty, so there uuist, of course, be a
gi'eat inducement to people to smuggle now.
31 19"). .ludgiiig from the reports that reach us, there are constant attempts made
everywhere to smuggle liipioi-, and do you think tliei'e would be very much nu)re iniluce-
ment under the prohibitoiy law ? Yes, there might be.
.31190. J)o you think it could I)e prevented ? I do, certainly.
.'51 197. Do you believe that any law which invohcs the welfare of the peoph^ can
be enforced if its advocates are in eai'iiest al)out it? Yes, certainly.
31198. There would, of coui'se, be sonu' infractions of any law ? I have sent one
man to the penitentiary for horse-stealing, but that has not |)revented stealing, and
horses have been stolen since.
311!)!). Did that suggest the idea<jf abolishing the law against horse-stealing? No.
.'5121)0. What do you think of tiie pleliiscite recently taken; does it express the
state of public o])inion on this iiuestion ? We have it in evidence that the vote was
taken for fun ? No, 'here was no fun aliout it. There was a solemn warning to the
Legislature of the country as to what the ojiinion of the jieople of Manitoiia was on this
subject. .Many voters gave their votes in constituencies that have almost a jirohilatorv
law now.
31201. Do you mean under the license .law? — Yes ; there are no licenses granted in
.some of these constituencies, and that fact will indicate to the Commission that the vote
was not given in fun. Take our own city : certainly it was not for fun that the [leople voted.
31202. Did Winnipeg give a considerable majority in favour of jirohibition .' — Yes ;
there was no fun about it, but the contest was in dead eai'uest. The people were left
alone to vote as they pleased. The temperance peojile and the fanatics, as we are called,
did go about and hold meetings and make temperance speet'hes and talk al>out the duty
Thomas Nixon.
42
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
t'actuiv iiiid
of citizens, but tlie voters went to the polls voluntarily. Tliey went up to vote as tiu'y
(Ifcidcd, voluntarily.
:illiO.'i. There was no untiuf intlucncc used?- No, and no money was spent on it,
not one dollai'.
.■{|l'U4. It was a pure poll ; Yes.
.'U'JO."). Was there much a;L;itation aj^ainst it? — I do not think there was any.
lilliOf). Tht! people, untnimmelled, expressed their opinions? A'os, they did so.
•'{r_'07. Did the vf)te jHilied represent a larjjt^ peicenta;;e (tf the tt)tal vote.' A very
liiriie percentajfe.
312UiS. In view of the vote j,'iv('n in Winnipeg, where there are fifty licenses granted,
would you understand the large vote in favour of prohibition to express tic Veliiig of the
people against the ]iresent license law and in fa\(nir of prf)hibiti()n ? — T would not take
the result in any other way.
;Ul'U!). You do not think it was a mere joke ! — No. We held some public meetings
in Winnipeg.
.'U210. Was there any agitation on the oj)posite side in Winnipeg l-^T do not think
there was any.
."Ul'll. I do not mean nece.ssarily liy public meetings, but by personal canvass.' i
(jo not know : there might have been.
//// Judijc McDonald :
'.\\'l\'l. Do you consider it is a sin to di'ink a glass of wine \ I do not.
;Hl'13. Did 1 understand you to place horse-stealing and taking a glass of wine on
the same footing? — [ think it is a sin to stt^al a horse, but I do not think it is a sin to
(liink a glass of wine.
.'Ul'l 1. The ([uestion was put to you in regard to the prohibiting of horse-stealing
aTid the sale of wine, not so much as to the sale of wine as to the sale of liipior. Do you
think the sen.se f>f the coimnunity is the same in regard to horse-stealing as it is in re-
gard to the sale of wine?- -I do not.
.'HlJin. Taking your view of the ipiestion, do you tner hope to obtain the same sen-
timent in regard to the one as the other? T shall n(!ver live long enough to see that.
■■5121(). In other words, the sentiment of the coimnunity is different towards the one
than it is towards the other? — T presume it is, it is against liijuor.
•'U217. Mas any attempt been made to {)ass the Sccjtt Act in AN'innijx-gf f think
not.
•'Ul'IS. \'ou know you ha\t' a right to take a vote here on the Scott Act ?-- Yes,
i)Ut we have nt)t taken one.
L'1219. The recent large majority in faxour of prohiliitory U^gislation has not yet
resulted in a single step being t;d<en towards submitting tin; Scott Act to the electors .'
We do not I'dpiire to do so if the Legislature carry out what they [unmised tn do for
us.
■'^iL'l'O. What was that?— That if tin! \ote was in favour of prohibiting tin; tratlic,
the (Joxernment would do it.
■'51:i'Jl. I>o you mean that the Legislature would pass a ]irohibitory law? That is
I iieir object.
•'il2L*2. Tt is to that you are looking forwafd ? — Y'es.
•'5122:5. What will be its effect?—! do not know.
."51224. What was the issue before the electors ?- -License or prohibition, fur piuiii-
liition and against prohibition.
.■5122."). Then the mode of prohibition was not submitted? — No.
•'5122(1. Y'ou have known a city, of which you luive spoken, in California, where
IHcihibition li.is been carried, which allows private individuals to have their cellars
^locked with li(iuors for their own u.se, just as people are allowed to do unrler tlu" Maine
law and under the Scott Act. That is called prohibition. Do I understand that you
iiii'an that the (|Uestion of the total prohibition of manufacture and sah^ was submitted
to the people of ^Linitoba ? It was not detinitely submitt(Ml.
•'51227. Was any question raised as to whether the manufacture shouhl be interfered
with by tlie Provincial Legislature? — No, the (juestion was not raised.
43
?
7^
Liquor Traffic — Munitolm.
,'112"_'S. 'I'licii I lie |iiii'ticuliirs us I'e^'jirds proliil)ili(iri wvn' not discusMtMl !- No.
.'nL'2'.). Do you (U'sire ii proliiWiioiy inciisurt' to !)«• carried? Yes.
.'JiL'.'iO, Take tlic iirovincf us you know it - iind of course! vou know it pretfv
w.-ll .' I do.
^!i-<'{|. Suliniit to till* |i)>o|)i(> this i|ui'stioM, niukin^' tiit'in U('i|uiiinti'd witli llic
cH'pots sliall a law Wi' cnaL'tcd that will jx-rniit a tnan who can atl'ord to buy liijuor al
a distance, to iirinj^ it in and till his cellar, liut will jiievent a man, who cannot atlord to
<lo so. havinjj any li<iuor? Mo you supj)o,se the people would carry such a 1 iw ? I
would c.irry it.
.'Ul!."{L'. ^'ou lu'licve it wuidd lie carried hy the votes of the people? Yes.
.'{ll!;{.'{. In other words, the|)eoplc who would know the resultof such a law, under
which a rich man could keep his cellai' tilled with lii|Uoi, whilea |)oor man could not get
any, would pass such an enactment .' I l)elie\e tiiey w((uld.
•'U'J.'U. Would not a conmiunity that took such a hinh view be already a temper-
ance people.' '{"hey ai'c a temperance people in the rural districts of this country.
•■5lL'.'<r). i)o you l)elie\c that in the rural districts such a proposition would cari-y I —
Yes.
.•U2;{(1.
;n->:{7.
.•{12.'»ii.
Would you hoi>e to cariT it in this city / — Yes.
And I'arry it eveiy where? — Y'es.
That lieinj^ the case, do you need prohibition t — Y'es, we do.
Why ; Hecause licenses are f;ranted in tins city.
Hut under the existence of an overwhelming sentiment in favoui' of
lea\inj; a man who cannot obtain a large (piantily of li(|Uor to store in his cellar,
without any litpior, while yf)u a'low a ricli man to have it in abuiulance, would
not the sentiment be so strongly in fa\'our of temperance that prohibition might be
considered to be an accomplished fact/ -No, I do not think so.
;?1"211. You think the i)eople wtmid still need some legislative restriction/--!
think so.
'.\\'21'2. iUit the mode they have not yet decided on? (.^uite so.
Bi/ Jirr. Dr. M<L,„,I :
'■\\'1\'.\. T suj)pose you understand that the Maine law prohibits the sale of li(|uurin
the State of Maine? -It cannot prohibit a man purchasing li((Uor in another State and
bringing it in as his own property, and therefore it does not attempt to do so. The
State of Maine law does not contain any provision that pernnts or allows a man toliaxe
li(|Uor in his cellar, but since the State has no power to do more than prohibit the sale
within the State itself, it cannot deal with that matter.
.'11244. 1 su])pose it would be the same in the case of Manitoba ?— If the Manitoba
Legislature enacted a prohibitory law, it could not do more than ]irohibit the sale and
manufacture of li(|Uor within the province.
31245. Would you t'a\i)ui-a prohibitory law ])assed by the Dominion Parliament,
which would ])rohibit the manufacture, sale and imjiortation of iiipior for the whole Do-
minion ? — 1 vvould.
.'M240. Would that meet the case of a nuin who wants to have liijuor in his cellar?
-1 do not suppose it would, if he could get it in : but if you prohibited the importation,
I do not see how he \v<iukl be able to get it in.
.'11247. Would you favour a law of that kind ? -T would.
lijl Jmiije McDonald :
.'U24S. 1 umleistoodyou to say that you would not favoura law that would prevent
a man bringing licpior in and storing it in his cellar? -We cannot pass a law ns to im-
portation.
ol249. (leneral Neal Dow said when before the Commission, that he would tiot be
in favour of a law that would prevent a man having that privilege, because he did not
Consider it would be woi'kable? — That is the private inijiression of a private individual.
.'512")0. It would become such an interference with the liberty of the subject, that
he ([uestioned wbethci' the peoi)le would be prepared for it ? — Perhaps T am not fully
educated up to ihe point of my lirethren on this question.
TiioM.^s Nixon.
44
.i i i w wj K > m i ^ g .iegiMj. ' t'gfiavi.s.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.11 ■_'•")!. Ymi miiy iii>t take ii imictifiil \i(iw hh In what wmilcl Ix' |»issil)li' in ciiri'y
lit ' I (lid not stiitc what was the best law that irii<;lit lie iia>s('(l.
.■{!:.'")■_'. NVduld yim [n'riiiit lii|iii)i' to Ih; l)i(iu;(lit in tor iiUH'luiiiiral pucpuscs .' — Vi's.
.'U ■.'•">•'!. .\Ihii t'nf iiu>iii('ii)al |iiirp<iN(>s? — Yes.
."U'J'il .Mho fill' ^acraiiii'iitai purposes ? Y'cs, ct'i'tainly.
'\\'2'>-i So, von wonlil not iiitt'i-t'cro with a man's rousi'lcnci' or w .lii his nei'«'ssitii'> .'
/.'// A't. Dr. Mr Lend.
liJ.'lli. IflhlMV
kiis a law in force prohihitin;
the sal
e"' li(pior. would yon see a yreat.
)t' ditl'erencc hi-tween the violation ot' that law. and li \iolatinii ot' the law respeet-
wvj. Iiorse stealmi; ,
In
1 each ease it wonid he a violation of tin- lav
I
lack to the ScrijitiM'es that every violation of the law is a sin.
ippi
I
inu->t
liif J mil ft' MrDoudhl .
'■\\ 'I'u . I 'nder our
aw s w e ha\e a pena
Itv ittached to the oll'enee of leavin'' a horse
milled oi' ot allowiii"; cattle to
IV. Would v(
^aine hasis as horse-s
steali
Nd. I
U put either of the>~e ollences on t In
would not.
■M -•">>'. Is nut horse-stealiii'' a sin of itself, whether tli
is law pro
In'ltit
s It or not :
:i! ■_';")'.). Is there nut any dilVerence in these two otl'ences ? I suppose there must
-.oiiic (lllIereiK't
ITe
)ll.'f)(J. Ha\e \du not found that the sentiment of tl
le communit V is diil'erent in
\ iewiiiir one and the other .' I do not see why a eiti/en should not he made to ohev the
law.
Jill lirr. Dr. Mrl.r„,l:
."Jllidl. You under.stand the licensiiiif of the drink trade to he a >in .' ^'e^. |
think so.
'.W'liVl. l)oyou think the sellini; i>i' ijiviiif; to ,iny one of strong drink - a sin .'
.Most assuredly, the selling of it is a sin. Tlu're is not a tavern-keeper who ,in kneel
down and ask (!o(l to hless his Inisiness durim' the dav if he (Mii'asjes in selliiH' liiiiior
iiNcr till har : there is not a man on earth who can do it.
Jiij Judge McDonald :
il2().'i. Do you favour the withholdinir of church n
liersln|) from tiie manufac
tureidf li(juor or the distiller ? I helong to the Methodist Church, and if •<ucli a man
were m
the Methodist Church, he would have to ao out of it.
Il:!(il. U(i
•ilecl
you suppose, if that course were
followed liv all r-eli<dous hod
would
l)(^ to place the trathc m
the hands of ai
1 undesirablt class :
I tl
les, the
link it is
111 the hands ot undesiralile men now.
•'U2t)-"). Would not that course |ilace it in the hands of more undesiral)!e men : would
it not have that efiect .' 1 do not know of any church in our city that lia-^ mem
hers enLca,i;(!<l in the tratlic -I do not mean men eiiLtaijed in the manufacture of li(|nor.
■'ilL'fid. 1 put the (pU'stion in rey.ird ti
uifactiircis and distillers, and v<
aware thei'c are wholesale dealers .' I do not know of any church here that has tli
men as niemhers.
Hl'Jtu. Do vou know whether all the churches have laid down tl
le i-nie. that tile
iliiirch will take away memliership from siu'h individuals? They do not : the English
< 'liurcli, the IJatholic Church and the Salvation Army do not.
ByRer.Dr.McLeod:
'M'l'o^. As to the ert'ect of the drink trade ; w hat etlect has that tr:ide on the men
engaged in it?- -They nearly all are ruined by it.
•'JlL'ti'J. in what way : from rlrinking themselves'! — Yes.
•■51l'7U. Does that rule a])ply to the manufacturers and wholesale dealers as well as
the retailers? — I have not looked into the tjuestion of the manufacturers or wholesale
dealers ; I have oidy looked into the class we would call in the old country publicans.
45
Liquor Traftic — Manitoba.
llaviii;; lifcii n tuLiil HhstaintM' t'oi' lialt'ii cciiturv, I hnvf niiulc it my .s|K^ei)il and partii'ii-
lur liUHini'Ss to look aftor the way in which tlicsf nn'ii f{<> tlirmi^ii iitV, I rct'i'i' ti> ilit'sc
iiicM Piii'a'tcd ill tli<' litiuor business,
A'// Jmiiji' MrlJduiild :
.'U"-'7i. NVliy lilt you not extend your inijuirir>» to others /- -It no\ er ocfurred to nie
to do so.
//// AVr. l>,: Mrhod:
'M'l't'l. Am I to undci'stiind tliere ai'e dill'i'i'ent ili';;n'i's of wronj; as helween the
ditj'eri'iit riasses i-ngafied in the tr'ade, I mean as to wiietiier thei'e ai'e ditl'erent ile^frees
of wroii;; hetween tlie niaiiufacturei-, wholesale dealer and I'etailer '. I eanriol se.' any
diM'el'ence.
Iti/ Jiiihjv McJJdiiiilil :
.'U'_'7.'{. At the same time you are jioinj; to jiei'init the manufaeturei' of lic|uor tor
niedii'inal and seientitic purposes to earry on his business ? — He is en<;afj;eil in a perfeetly
It'i^'itimate, honourabli^ and U))i'ii;ht business.
.■5r_'74. Then youi' idea would be to piohibit nianufaetui'in^ f ir beverage purposes?
Most ceitainly.
;irj7"). Ha\e you eonsidei'ed the amount of output you would allow the manufac-
tufers foi' medicinal and scientilic purposes I — I have not.
.■$I27(). And the kinil of lii|uor yon would allow them to manufacttn'e for nieilicinal
and other j)urposes? — No.
Ji,) Rr,: Dr. Mr hod:
.■?I277. Would you have that business placed under strit't (!o\ernnient control/ —
Yes, most assuredly.
1). F. lil'jNAN, of \\'innipef;, hotel-keeper, on beinjj; duly sworn, deposed as
follows : —
]iif Jiidyi'. McDoiuild :
.■51278. I believe you keep a licensed house in this city 1 — Yes.
.■U"-'7i>. How lonjj have you lived here? — Fourteen years.
.">rj8U. How lon;j; hn\e you been eii^iaijed in the hotel business ? -Otl' and on for \0
years; I have been si^veral years where I am now.
.'IIl'SI. Have there been many changes made in the provisions of the license law
.since you started business,' — Yes,
.'{ll'S'J, We understand there have been amendments made fr-om time to time and
restrictions placed on the sale I — We have been allowed to keep open dui'inj; lonj;er hours
than is the case now.
."SriS.S. Then you have now to close earlier than previously. Wiiat- is the senti-
ment of those in the business as re<;ards closinj; hours? — I am well satisfied with them.
.■H2S4. You are closed 1 believe from 11 o'clock in the evening to 7 o'clock in the
morning .^— Until X.'.W.
Thomas Nixon.
46
57 Victoria.
8e«i8iomil Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
K. 1'. liKACOCJK, (if St. Itniiit'iicc, W'imiiiH'j;. A;,'<'ni nt' tli<^ Ciiiiiuliaii I'iuilii- l{ail-
uav, on lii'iii;,' duly sworn, deposed as follows :- -
II 11 JikIiji' Mf DiiiKthl :
V nieiiicinai
ifcnsc law
;i I lif^'i. Are you a nali\ I' (if t Ills |irovinee ! No, I liave Keen liiTe fouiteen \eai'N.
.'>l ■-''"•i. hid you lonie from allot lier pniNiMce of Canada.' 1 caiiie here from l']ii'4-
laiid ; I liave livuil in Ontario.
.'tll!^7. Have you oceupied any public |)osition si nee you liaxi? Iicen in tiiiN pro\ ince >
1 lia\(' lieeii reme of Kiidoiian, warden of Selkirk, a iiiemher of (he iiei,'isl,it iv e
A>semlily and Maj;istrate, in fact I have heen almost e\erytliinj;.
LM^'^^f^. As a memlier of the Le;,'islature, had you anyihin^to do with the ju'epara-
liiin of tlit> license law .' ^'es, i prepared the Act of l,*<S().
.'ill'Si*. Have you olisorved the working of the license law in this pro\ince .' I have
iiliM'r\ed till- workini,' of tlu^ license law very closely.
;')I:.".H). How do you tiiid the law works? -I tinil that the law is not enforced.
;ilL".)l. To what do you at.triSute the iioii enforcement ? -To liie laxity of the
olliceis, to the laxity of pulilic o|)inioii and to the lack of moral cour.i^'e to enforce it.
lilliDli. ( )n the part of wlioin ? — On the p.irt of the otHcers who sliould (Uiforce it,
frcpiiitlie Attorney General down. Every one of them down to the lowest otlicer h;is not
liic moral courai.'e to (Miforce the license law.
.'llL'U.'{. 'i'liat ojieiis a very important (|uestion. We have just heard from one of
the witnesses, Mr. Nixon, that aveiyliea\y xote was r<'ceiitly polled in I his |)rovince. ( >f
ciuirse this has hoeii taken as expressing the opinion of the jieopU" in favour of prohibi-
tion, for it has been represented to us that the majority given was a very large one.
If that indicates the o|iiiiion of the people, how do you account for the lack of moral
coiiriige to enforces the present law .' Simply for this rea-on, that a greati many ('oiis(>r-
\aiives wished to place the ( ioNcriinieiit in an awkward position by voting for prohibi-
lion. I imagine the motive of the Conservatives was to see what the Local ( io\ ernmeiit
would do if that vote were carritHl.
•'Ul.".)4. 'J'liat is not an answer to the c|uestion. The witness to win 'in I refer, .Mr.
Nixon, state that the vote was an expression in favour of prohibition by the people of
.Manitoba. As I understand you, the votegi\eii was not dui' to that .' -It was no ex-
pression of jiublic opinion in favour of prohibition ; it was rather an expression of opin-
ion that the local lii-ense laws were not properly carried out and that \i'ry seriiais results
would follow.
l!|'_'!l."). Then it was not a vote in favour of prohibition ? 1 1 was a declaration in
favour of .--troiig measures being taken in regard to dealing with the trallic, but not in
fa\oiir of prohibition yv-r xf.
• illiyt). You have stated that the olKcer of both political parties lia\-e beiMi to blami'
for the non-enforcement of the license law and for lack of moral courage. ( )f what are
tlii-y afraid .'-They are afraid (jf the hostile opinion of tlu; licen.sed victuallers ; tlicv are
also afraid of intluenccs being brought to bear on them to stop )U'o.set-ulioiis. 'i'liere is
no reason whatever w'liy a man who is Attorney (General of this province, whether he is
a total abstainer or liot, should not know perfectly well that the law is not enforced. It
is not enforced, and no one attempts to enforce it.
•■il2!)7. Ff the opinion of the majority of the jieople was favourable to strict enforce-
iiieiit, how couM the (Jovernment resist that sentiment ? — Th(sy do not resist it, they
go to sl(M>p.
•'il"Jl)f<. If that sentiment is for prohibition, how can they, in \ iew of the power and
intluence exercised by those in favour of enforcement, yield to tiie other sitle ? — For
the very simple reason tha.t the people talk and do not enforce their views.
■:«i.
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
iri'.l'.l. You think it is ii mt'ii' iiiiitur of t;ilk .' -Xo doiiht tlic license hi
w would h(
1 I).
more elliiiently enforced except fo; tli" fact tluit undei' writs of rirtinmri a j;reat many
l)ros(;cutions lia\e l)een (|uaslie'l and .ludj;es liave aiimded i'on\ ictions, so tliai no .Mai,'is-
tfate tfies to |)foci'ed with any cases.
;$|.'itJO. So tiiei-e ai'o local difViculties in the way .' — Ves, entirely so.
;n301. You have (dfeady told the Commissionei's that tlie diMieulty was nor from
writs of riTfiiirdri, liii' that the ( io\ernmeiit was affiid to enfoice th(> law .' — '{'he (iov-
ernment diies not spend sufVicient money or expend suthcieiit cnei't;y or emplo
It numi)er f)f oHicei's to put dow n the illi 'ic tratlic that ])re\ails under the j
I suth
resent
law.
.■MilOi!. Is not the ,iul)lic the re)»resentati\(' of pul)lic opinion, and is not the (Jox--
ernmeiit controlled Ity that opinion ,' The ( io\ crnmi'nt has followed ])uhlic opinion ■".-
far as it s'lited itself.
.'il .'{D.'i. Do you think this a ipirstion on whicn peo'^le will not follow up their 'pin-
ions with their votes'? That no doubt ajijdies to the peo,.ie of Winnipeg;. IftheAitor
ney ( lene: il would employ ollicers to thofoui,ddy enforce the licpior license law , 1 he
lie\e the <i i\(>i'innent"s action would he approxcd.
;ii;{l'k l>o you think the people of .Manitoba to-day ai'e pre] tared to support the
enactment of ,i law that
would prevent < he manutactiu'e. im]ioitation and sale ot into.vi
eating li(|Uors foi- hevetage purposes' No. We woulil i-e(|uirc, in the first piace. toh
pu',' ]ires( nt law enforced for some years ; then such
would follow natuiallv.
1 another law as vou iiave ii
idicatt
.!ll?0"). Would you favour the otlier law yourself .' it mit,'ht li'' a threat hlessinu to
tlie pe> !'le.
>()(!. I )o \ou think a prohibitory law would be a(h isable .' It would
)e a u'reat
) lessiui,' to the country in the future, but T (piestion tli" ad\ isability of introdui'intr
it at the ])resent moment.
.■>1."U)7. You do not think it ]>ractical)le at thepi-esent time.' (.4)u te .so.
.'U.'U)S. In case such a l.iw was j)a^sed, would you favour the payment of compen-
satio!) to brewers and distillers for their business beinj; destroye<l by the enactment of
such a law .' 1 oortaiidy think vested rii;hts should be piNjtected, but at the same time
such a law seems to lui^ to be impractical)!". At the p •eseiu time conxictions an
([uasjied and prost'i'utions ai-e p,
M
.!in
iralvzed. In the North west 'rerritories, where I am a
liiistrate,
ili I
will lie o'llln'ci
I to discoiit iuiie ailowinij iiro.secutious to be institutiv
I
perfc'tly certain that they >V(iuld l)e ipiasheil on writs of i-rrlinvuri, and frieiidN of
mine ha\(^ asked me to indicate to them the lines on which to proceed.
.'il.'ft)!t, Have you considered the cpu-stion of the enforcement of a prohibitory law.
if one were enaete<l f I think it would be impossible !o enforce such a law, as the
mii'.d is not ready for it. It would amount to nil. Tliert
lid be sir
oni;-
measures taken at the outset to opjiose it, The first step in my opinion is to se- that
the law in rcLtard to the sale of li(pior is observed. esp(<cially in rej;ard to allowiui; liquor
to be drunk on the premises duriiii,' ijlej;al hours, .ind in such cases the lic< ii.sed .ictual
lers should lie fined and punished.
:ii;tlu. What
ur o)iinion in rcLrard to the wurkinu ot the |
iliiliitor\ law ill
(he Northwest Territories? It was absulutely nil. and tl
then thai: there is now.
lere was more i
Irinl'
knit; none
ll.'ill. I )o Mill know anvtliiiiit of t he chaiacter of the liiiiior iisei
d I The 1
uiuor
as I -.pirteil 111 kei
and the people were in the habit of <fettimf two or tlin
of whisky at a time, and they would drink it and remain liki' beasts for a day
or tv.-.i; and sul)sei|uently. for perhaps a month, they would not have any liipior
•liati
.■U.'{1'_'. Had you reason to suppose that the litpior was adulterated at that lii
I iini;<'ine tiiat the whisky that went in
was \er\' had
.'< 1 .'< I .!- b Do \-ou mein tl;,.t mhv of it was adulterated .' ^1 imai;
ine a ;;re.i
I di
ll ut
It was, 111
theT
eri';ti.i it
Sl.'tl •")-(). Mr. Tlipper, I believe, was Inspector and issucu lireii
iftcr the Act
was passei
I ! Ves, III
tl
e whole t hllii;' was ;i Mrce.
K I'. 1
K.\CO('K.
48
57 Victr,ia.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1884
lii) Rrr. Dr. MrLr,„l :
;51.'{17. Yuii think |io|iular si'iiiinifiit i-^ not n-jnly tor |iroliiliii ion ,' No, luit ii is
|iiit'(Mtly fi'fidy t'oi' tiic stiici cnt'oiccHii'nt of a st liiij.'i'iit licciiM' law,
.'il.'US. l>oyoll ri'^ai'il the rn-rnS, \oti' as an I'Xprcssion of [uililii- o|)iMioii ' 1 ii'^-afd
it a.-- a vote wliicli was lary:('ly iiianiiuiiatcd foi- |ioiiticai |>iiriio-.cs.
."il-'ll'.t. I undi'fstaiid tliat, in your opinion, nioif liinior was drmd< intlir N'ortli-
ui'si 'rcriiiorics under ]>roiiiliilion tlian is tiic i-asc now ,' I )('cidi'dly so.
.'il.'V'", I low do yon account t'oi tiial cii'cuinslancc .' The hotel krc|>ci- i,-. tlic licsi-
license ins|ieclor you can have. He will pi'ev cnl 4it her people selling; in order to protecti
his own iiusiness, and he will eiulcaNoiir to cai'ry out the law in that resjiect. ( >t' conrsi>
hi' !■- <'ndea\ oiiriiii;' to carry on a ri'.s|)ect:at)le house, and it there is illicit sale ^oiiig
on. he will endeaxoiir to suppress it, and it' neces- .I'-y, he wil! lay int'oi'inatioii.
.■il."i21. ^'ou have said that considerahlc (|uai.' it ies ot lii|Uor wi'i'c admitted into
the North-we^l Trrritoi'ii'^ hv ppni'il and that some jieopje wmild licconi.' drunk '
Vc-.
."> I .")L'"_'. And then tor two or three inoi\t lis t hev wouhl not lie alile to j.(t"t anvlii|Uor.'
.Not unless they happened to 1,'et a permit. In tlic old days when one person ^ot ii
pciiiiit. every liody knew it, and there would lie a i-c;,'ular jauihoree when liipior arrived.
.\tt"r that ti'i.e owino- to dilliculties of transiiortat ion, it did not fi-eipieiitly come in ;
hit recently I an told I do not know this from my own knowlediie that in every
place in t he 'rerrilorics more whiskv was to lie had liefore t he railway reached theri^
than there's now. .\l r. .Mel )oiiald, I he menilier for l^el lilirid^c, whfiis.i total alistainer,
lold iiie that it has lieen diderent since the liicn-e law came into force, and he stated in
the .\ssemlily t'u' ad\iintaj;es of the License .\ct.
;'i I •">■_';). ^'ou know that of your own know led:;'e ,' 1 know that in t he Tciritories
I here is much less di';id<iii.t; now . .\s • he license law has only lieeii in force t wo or three
iiionths. 1 am not in a position to compaie it with the prohiliitory law. I'nder the )ier-
iiiit svstein the people brouifht a lar^e ipLiiitity of lic|Uor at one time into the countrv,
aihl the people gathered toncther and 'li'jink it.
.i!.">l.'4. You think there is mucli less drunkenness now .' ho not the pcii|ile drink
regularly, whereas liefore they cc.idd only yet it occasionally.' No. N'ou could ai'count
for that very much on the principle of the little hoy stealini; apples They have no
Iroiilile in ifeltinu it ii(jw,iin(l (.'oiiseiiuently they do notliother their heads aliout. it. The
whole fault is that the license system in .Manitoba is luit enforceil. There should he
viirilant oliiccrs to proper! v ' -ok aftei' the enforcement of the law. and if iheic vmmc such
olticers public sentiment wo'.ld be absolutelv fiivmiridile to them. It is undoubtedly
tavourable to a se\ ere licen, e lavv, which would not let otroll'enders w it h low tines. Public
-eiitiment is in fav ■ ir of ;i striiii^'Piit license law and is not in favour of i:ivini,' trivial
pmiislnnei;ts to persons v.iio will sell liipior to drunkards for I'xample, or allow men to
leinain in barrooms until I ht^y uei drunk. Theie is a strong feidin.ij that parties should
he severely dealt witi: for thes(> ollences.
.'U.'i2">. You are interested m the license law ; is the license law that I rcl'erred to
a whik' alio the license law you prepafed, or that Mr. Ttipper prepared .' It i.'i th(> one,
very much iiioditied, adopted by the present ( !ov crnmeiit, with many restrictive clauses
taki'ii out.
.'ii;!l.'('.. It is the law wl ich .Mr. Tupper pre|iarctl .' W'h.it .Mr. Tupper pnjiared
was the .Vet which I. as Chairman of the Coininittee, revised.
■ Uol-'T. I uiulerstood that there were certain amendments made by yourself or
-oiiie one (!lse later .' There were amendments made by myself. .M r Tupper dr.ifted
llic hill, which was |irejiared from the .Mc("aithy .\ct and also the ( (ntario .\ct. I took
'hat Hill and very much revised it, in reuard to clauses providiiiu for prohibition in
certain cases and other clauses of that dcscrijit ion ; of course, I changed it verv-jnnsi-
dcrably.
^il.'iliS. Is it the I'ldv incial .\ci you arc considerini;- .' -'I'lie present Provincial .\ci.
li vv.is chaiiffed by tiie Conservative party in lSS7,))Ut at no other time, .Mr. Hamilton,
vvliii calls himself a total abstainer, wii- Attorney (Jeneral, and he was forced bv the
licensed victuallers to iimcnd the Act vt-ry much.
49
:)l^-.4**
I
f
i
llttlHl
I'ii
H
f
i
jiquor Traffic — Manitoba.
15 1. '{l'!). Since 111.' it lias been aiiiciulcMl several times, each time in t'axour of the
licens.Ml \ictuallers ,'- \'es, absolutely in their fa\()ur. 1 shall send the Commission a
}jamj)hl(!t whiih 1 p'jpared in uonnectiua with the amemlments J read to the eom-
mittee. 1 may sa'* that the Act has lieeii practically spoiled.
.'{l.'i.'iO. Youlelie\o that eventually the country will he ready for ])idliil)it ion ?-
I believe that (;ventually, in yi>ars to cfjnie, we will ha\e jirohibition, for jiublic sentiment
is growiiiff that way.
3l;3."il. And the I'igid enforcement of the license law represents that feeling, inyoui-
opinion? — Yes; and when prohibition does come it will be a blessing for the country.
Pnblif sentiment is ripening and is tending towai'ds it, and at the same time we feel
that the fust step has been taken to prepare for that result.
Tile Commission adjourned.
E P. Leacock.
50
J 57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■I
:1
WIN\]rK(!. OctolHT L'.")tll. lS<)-_'.
Tlir U<iyiil Cciiiiiiiissioii met tins day at '()..")() a. in.
J'nsru/ :
.JiDiu: M( |)n\.\i.i). ]{;;\. Dij. Mel .kud.
Al.KX.VXDKIl .McDonald, of Wiiiiiii.eg, .Mayor, on being duly swoiir d.--
jiDsed as tollows : —
lijl ,hi,l,j>' M,-D,>,mhl:
."•i .").!•_'. I iii\di'istand you arc Mayor of Winnipeg? Yes.
."> I •">.■>.''!. How long liu\c you resided in this city.' 'J\vcuty-onc years.
;'il •'!•'> 1. How long lia\-c you been .Mayor? — Since .January last.
Ill.').'i-"i. \\'eiv you an .\ldernian before that time? — I was an .Mdennan in 18iS7
and l■■<^,S.
.':|:ili(). Is the Mayor elected by the (leople .'- Y(!s.
• ii.).">7. Is lie elected by the direct xoto of the electors? — Yes.
.")l-">-'>S. Of course In- presides over the City Cuuiicil?-— Yes.
."U;!'!'.'. Mas he other duties to ])erforiii as chief executive otiicer of the city? -Yes,
lie is t 'haiiinan of tlit^ Police Commission.
;!I-1IU. 1 suppose he is called u))()n to exercise general supervision over municij)al
atl'air.'.. Of course when 1 he Council is not in session, he has many matters on which
he iin act on his own responsibility .' Yes, in c.i.-cs of urgency, but we ha\'e not iiianv
such cases.
•'U.'SH. I l)elie\c ill business yod are w wholesale grocer? Yes.
•"pl'il2. Tln're has been a large dev('lo|Miient of trade in the city, 1 understand,
diiriiiu' ihe last tweiity-(»ne years ? Yes ; our present |)opulation is about iiO.IJOO.
.'il.'ibi. What was the po])nlatioii when you came here? .Vboiit I.UOO.
.'W.'UI. Was it still callecl lAnt (!a;ry, or was it known as Winnipeg.' The ( )ld
I'mt was callefl Fort (iarry, and up at this end it was called Winnipeg;.
• il.'ib"). l)uriiig the years you have been here, ha\e you noliced a ch.uige in the
social custom-; of the jteople in regard to drinking habits .' Do you think there is as imich
lii|iior prop.iitionately used as there was in the earlier d;'ys of :he settlement .' J think
about the same projioit innately.
•il.'Sbl. What lemilatioiis had you in thosi' days in r:'L;ard to the sale of liipior.^ — T
really do not know.
• il'M?. Was t here a license la \ infone.' I think there was no restriction as to
the >al" of lii[Uor ; or if so, it was very slight.
•''Nils. .Ml liijuor came in at "Jo cents jier gallon duty under the old Dominion
law, dill it not .' 1 think there was a license of a small anioiiiit, but 1 forge! the sum.
'riiere were only two or three hotels here at that time.
• ililil. The trallic was not at all under such restrictions ;,s it is to-day in the way
of a License Act, limiting the hours, and e\ervtliiini' of that kind .' Xo.
• >L'i-'')U. During I he years you have been here, has there beei an ad\ain'e in the
coiiiiiiuiiit V in the direction of temperance seiiliineiit and so (in. llave teiii|ierance
oi^anizalioiis obtained a foothold here.' - N'es.
•'U.'i'il. .\nd they, of course, are carrying on their work .' Yes.
• ' I ."i'il'. .\re you as Mayor, a iiiembi r of the lioard of License Commissioners .' N"o.
• iLir),"). Havt\ you studied the working of the license law ? We will take the mode
of obtaining a license, in the lirsl place : does your law reijuire a ccn'tain number of sig-
21_4J**
51
i
51 \„
111
.-.i l i
■■.li!
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
t lii'i'i
il'a^sR]'
luitiiri's lu nil :ii)[)liL"it iiiii t'lir license .'-A'es, a eertaiii iiiiiiilier uf the iieui'e.sl iieiglihoiir.'-
lire re(|uii-ed to si,i;ii.
;51.'5-")4. In regard to tliiit liiiuicli ut' the sulijcut, jifc tliei'c any aiiiendments you
coulil sunj^est that iiiinht be advantageous as to the workiii.u of th(> Act.' 1 tliiiik
it is fairly sat ist'aetory,
.'i I .'{rio. Tala' the license law il'^elt': liow do you lind it is ohserxcd liy the iikmi en-
;^aged in the tialKc : does it appear to he fairly well ohserved, for instanee, cs to the pro
iiihition of sale on Sunday ! —No, I am sorrv to sav it lias not lieeii enfori ed \-erv well
in thai ies|i<Mt until \ery recently.
:'.|;i.")(i. 'I'lien tliere has Keen sale on Sunday to a certain extent .' —Yes ; hut 1 think
tli(.' law has lieen more carefully ohserved dirintr the las! week or two.
•"il^i'iT. Are you t rouhleil in reuard to licensed houses selliiij;- to pCMipIc under a^e ;
— I am not aware of it.
.■il.'ioi^. .\re you aware of sale to minors.' Xo.
.'ill').')'.). We understand that under the ])resent law the sale of ynieeries is separated
from the sde of !i(|Uor, that n'l'oceries are not allowed to he sold in tlie.aine roo!i' ; Not
in t he same l)^lil(lill;,^
.'U'JtlO. I )o you think that is a wise provision .' — Ye.s, 1 think it is a wise provision.
.■<l.")til. Have you studied the ipn'stion of lii^li license ? 1 lia\e f;iveii the matter a
little consideration.
;')l.'5t)L!. The tlieorv JnU forward at some phu'es where the Commission has sat is.
that ,1 hiu'h license would limit tlie numlier of licensed [ilaces, and that a small nuiiiher
oiiK would he liceii.si'd ; and it is contended by some that this would lead to thost! places
beint; made more respectable, and that the very fact that the projirii'tors of those licensed
houses Would havi" to pay a liiuh license would cause them to prevent illicit sales. Ilaxc
Viui studied the (|Uesii(in in any of the-e aspects ( 1 have given it a liti le ciuisiderat ion,
and 1 approve of high license for the reasons you have just stated.
.'iliil^V Have vou jiaid anv attention to the ([uesMon of the adulteration of lic|uor
snld;--No.
.'Sl.'ifil. Would you favour in connection with h license law such as I ha\e indicated,
a rigid inspection of li(|uors, to ascertain that those sokl are j)ure. 'J'his theory is jiut
forward also, that w ht>re there is a high lic;'nse there is a temptation to sell cheap coni-
poLinds, so that a man is more easily recouped for his outlay, 'riici!, agaii , where there
Is |)roliil)ition : owing to the risk of seizure of li(|Uor, a man doe.s not w am to keej) an
e.\pensi\e slock on hand, but he has cheap stufV compounded to sell. It has hi^en con-
leiided that one of the results of high license wiaild he that it would lead to the
selling of poor licpior ; and I understand you would favour a rigid inspecti<in in order to
insui'c t he sal. ./I pure liipior/ If I thought thei(> was the slightest danger of liipior
being adulteraled. I wnuld I'ertainly fa \dur inspect ion.
.■)l.'i(i."). Have you noticed, in your experience here, whether the liipior trade has
had any elVect on business generally, and if so whether injuriously or otherwise? I
could not '-ay thai I h.ivc noticed that it has had any eil'cci on business one way Or the
other.
.'U;i(iii. In whai part of ('.■inada did you reside before you came to I his city .' — I was
ihree years in .Scaforth, Huron County.
.'ll.'>()7. Was the license l;iw in force there l-A'es.
• il'itis. Haxcyou noticed whether tliere is much illicit sale in this city ; I mean
sale by unlicensed jieojile ? I do not think so, 1 lia\i' not noticed any.
.'{l.'Uiit. Ha\(' you any reason to suppose there is any.' 1 liaxc no reason to suppose
(here is any.
.'U.'iT'l. Ha\<' you considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the ]iersistent drunk
ard .' We lind that in some places where the Commission have sat, ihcre are ineii a ho
get drunk continually ;tnd who are sent to jail for short terms, and as .soon as they are
out they are sent back again. It has been suggested that a system should be ailopted
by which such j)ersons should be siuit uj) until they had lieeii cured of the habit.
Would you f voursut'h a system rather than tlwit at [U'e.sent followed of sciidiiii; these
people to jail foi- short terms ? Have you considered that <picstion al all .' No.
Al.KXAMlKH lM(:J)0\.\l,I),
52
57 Victoria.
SessioDMl Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iicii.'lilmiir.'-
linciits vuii
,/— 1 tlnnk
lie iri(!ii cn-
t(i till' pnt-
) VIA IV wfU
l)iit I tliiiik
iiiidrr a^c '.
s s(']>iiriiti'(l
iMiM' ; Not
:■ lirovisidii.
n'. matter a
lias sat is.
lall iiuiiilu'i'
lliosc plai'cs
isi' licensed
les. llavo
isideraticiii,
111 cit' li({Lllll'
luiieated,
eiirv is imi
clieaji I'liiii-
k iiere tliere
til keep an
lieen eon-
ead to tlie
ill order to
!■ ot' lii|Uor
t rade lias
r\\ ise .' I
lay or the
y .'-I was
: I mean
I sii|i|ii ise
it drunk-
men >\lio
s tliey are
adopted
the lialiil.
lillil' these
;5l;i71. Wliiit pro\ ision is iiiaiU; in tjiis eity, or has ^iiere been any provision iimdo
ill the way of public parks for the peojile .' -Tliere has been no [>i-o' ision made in that.
wav. except a private park owned by Nir. Austin of the Sti t Haihvay Coin| any ; it is
ai 1 he south end of the city. Then there is an ivxhibition Ljrouiid near t he ( 'anadian
racilie Itaihvay, at the noi'th tMid.
.'il.'JT-!. Are any entertainments pro\i<letl for the people there .' No.
.■U.'57.5. Alt' tliere no gai'iieiis or anything of that kind and are no eiitertaiiinienls
.;i\en'/^ — No, excerpt siiuh as are ja'epared by societies.
.■)l'i7 I. Are there i;anies of fool liall and so on ! No, there are picni(S.
;il.'>7"). Are tliere no enteriaiiiiiieiits provided at the Ivxhibition (Jrcaiiids, noihiiii;
in the way of ,i;'y in nasties, and is there no admission fee charged ! There is the Win
iiipcL;' Industrial ivxhibition lu^ld once a year, and a fee is changed for admission.
.■)1."p7<!. Then there is nothint; ]irovided in ihesliai)e<if enlertainmeiits duriiiu- the
.■^iniimer at Austin I'ark .'-—Not so far as I know.
.■ib"i77. The reason 1 ask is, because in Montreal ]ieoj)le are as^ii.ited about Sohnier
I'.irk, with a lieens(( granted in connection with it. They lia\c a lari;e pavilion there,
capabli.' of holdinj^- 7,000 jieople, and they furnish enlertainmeiits, iiududiiiL; soiiys and
iiiiisii' ami so on, and people go there who would ollier\\is(> resort to saloons, and they
;;■('( the flesh air and enjoy themselves. Have you considered the nueslion of pro\ idiiig
>ucli a ]ilace for yoir city .' -Xo, we have never considered that ([uestion.
.■il:'i7''^. Perhaps your population is not sulliciently large to render such a ]iark
iiec^sary .'— The matter has not been brought up for discussion. The ipiesiion of parks
lia-> been discussed, not because we are in need of tlieiii at the present time, but simply
liecaiise we desire to pro\id(! for the future, and of coursethis is the time when weshoukl
pi(i\ ide our jiarks.
.")l;i79. Your air is so fresh and puiv yet that you have no need of ojieii s|iaces such
,1^ are retpiired by large cities in thi^ east/ No, our population is not crowded, but is
pretty well scattered over a large area.
.'Sl.'iSO. Have yon considered the (piestion of the ad\isability of encouraging the
Use of light wines and ales, and doingaway with the use of strong li([Uoi'sas a stimulant !
1 ha\e thought the matter over a little, particularly in connection with my e.xjierii'iice
in the 2sortli west when the tiovernment .dlowed i per cent beer to go in there. I
iUi not think from what I have seen that tliere is much to be said in ita favour.
.'il.'i81. 'I'lien you ha\e had experience in tin North-west Territories ?- Yes.
.'il.'}S2. Hav(? you had experience in any other country where jjrohibition is
enforced ? -No.
;U.'5S;{. Will you state your experience in ihe Nortli-west .' I iiave done busines.s
in the North-west Territories at least fifteen <<>■ sixteen years at diflerent points, and
the ert'ec of prohiljition there during the first f.-iglit or ten years was I think very good,
and in the interest of the country, because the law was i-arried out, so far as I I'ould
jiidge, to the letter. Of course I'ecently they became more lax. and within the last four
or live years I think the law was not enforced at all, in fact I know it was not. I
helii've that in view of the condition of affairs that prevailed, it was much better to
drop the permit system iind adopt i\w improved system which now pr<!\ai!s,
^U.'iSb During the first few years of which yoii have spoken, did you travel
extensively through the North-west ! -Yes.
■il.'ii'*'"*. Did it appear lo you that the law was properly enfniced iliere.' Did you
notice any drinking at all : did you e\-er see drunken jieople in I ho e days .' -When the
peiinit system c;inie in, the jieople drank at once ; but f believe very little li(|iior went
iiilo the Territories during the lirst eight or ten years after the mounted police went
I here, except, of (tourse, by [jerniit.
•'il.'i''<G. I )o you consider a prohibitm'y law advisable for the c lunlry as a whole? —
Personally, I am in favour of it.
•'513.S7. Are yriu in f(Uour of national prohibition.' lam in favour of practical
prohibition.
.'U.'58S. Do yoii consider it is prvicticable at lhepre-.iiit time to carry out sudi a
law I I do not see why it should not gci.
•{i-'<8iK ^'oll think it would be practicable f — ] think so.
63
u i
'III
11
i!
u
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'U.V.Ki, How would you jn'oposi^ to enforce lluHaw .' \\'oul(l it ho hy hiiviiii,' ji
force siiuilaf to the Nortli-wcst Mounted Police ' — Not exactly iSEouiited Police! otiieers,
l)ut otHccrs to curry out the law, the same as wo eariy out any other law.
;U.'5i)l. JUit you are, no douht, aware that other laws are enforced hy either muni-
cipal or ]iro\ iiicial ollicers. that ditl'ei'ent hodics look after their own numicipal allaii's.
Would you ha\e this work dnn(> hy the same ollicers? — I could not say : I liaM' not
gone suHiciently into the i|uestinn to he ahle to state what iiiachineiy would he neces-
sary to carry out the law.
.">i;lilL'. i)oyou consider that in coiinerlion with sucii a l.iw and its enforcement, it
Would 1)1' necessary to have a Vi'fv laii,'e majority of tiie jteople in favour of it. In other
Words, lake such a law as that which we are discussinff, do you iielie\cif .~i!l were
ill favour of it and -ID against it, you could \ cry Ciisily enforce it.' Thai would he :i
jii'ctty narrow majority.
:>l;>'.t:i. Some suggestions h;i\e heen made in reirard to wlial the uiaioiily uiiiihl he,
or rather as to what majority might he considered (o lie ad\ i-;id)le, and some [leople
have expressed the opinion t hat there must he a decided trend of )iuMic sentiment in
ffiAOUr of such a meas\u'e, much moi'e thun a hare ruajority, in oidei- to make it a suc-
cess?--! do not .see why that slutuld he iieee-<sary.
IH;5!)4. Considei' for a moment a \ot(! taken on this ijuestion. ^'oUl• province
would prohahly \ote sti'ongly in favour of a [iroliihitory law liie Maritime Pr'o\inces
would idso piohahly \ote in f.nour of it ; hut the Province of (i)u(>l)ec might vote
against it; Ontario might he divided or hold the Imlance : liritish (,'ohnnhia might gi\e
ten to one against it. Could you hope to enforce a law with great success when it came
to be applieil to all the provinces if carried in thai way '. There would lie more ditii-
culty on the Parilic coast.
• U.'ill.j. Coidd you hope in a counnunity recording a \ote of ten to one ag.iinsi a
law. to he able to etifoi'ce that law. sti'ictly .' -J think so.
;!l;5!)ti. To sum up the matter, you are favourable to the enactment of a pi-ohibi-
tory law for the Dominion, a law )irohibiting th • manufacture, impoi'tation and sale of
intoxicating litiuor, provided the people were in favour of it I -Of course unless the
majoriiv of the nu'inhers re|)resent ing the peo]>le in the Donn'nion were in favour of
such a measure, it could not he |iassed.
•"U.'i'.tT. 1 mean the enactment of such a law. iiut perliap.'r you woulil fa\our a ple-
biscite for the IJominion on such a question i — You have stated that one province naght
be very much against such a l.iw, and another pi'ovince consideral)ly in favour of it. ]
should not like to answer the ([uestion as to whether or not it would bed(>sirable for the
Dominion to pass such an .Vet at tla^ ])res(>nt- time, without ascerlaininu lirsl what was
the feeling of fhepeo]>le of (.'finada as a whole.
;{l.'?ilS. I'^roni your study of this subject, wcadd you f;i\our a re-solution being
adopteil which would .allow each province to act tor itself on this ipiestion? No.
.■)1.'{!I9. Then you would eithei' make it a national ipiestion or not at all? Y'es,
because I do not think the ]u-ovince could verv well enforce the provisions of such an
Act.
.'il U)0. ^\'hy ; It would he much more dilHcult to enfoiceit. The law should 1)o
passed by the Dominion Parliament foi' the l)ominion.
.'51 K)i ■_'. \in[ lia\e really, then, not worked out in your mind any delinitc scheme
orjilan you would adopt in dt>;ding with this matter? — No.
.'U 4 ()•"). Are there any suggestions, dr.iwn from your ex])ericnee, you can oU'ertotho
Conunission in regard to any matter connected with this ini|uiry that you think would
l)e of benelit ? — No; T ha\e not given i he mattei' ^utlicient consideration to \('nture to
make any suggestions.
• il l')l. Sup)iosing such a law were ])asse<l, a ]irohibitory law. doing away with the
manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liipiois for be\erage purjioses, should
compensation be given to the l)rewers and distillers for loss of plant and soon ?- -1 think
as we ha\e licensed the numufacture and .sale '>f intoxicating liquors, it would he only
I'iglit that those jier.sons should Im! coinpensate(; for any loss they might sustain.
Ali:.\aniii;h M( Dovai.d
54
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
iec olHcers,
tlicr imiiii-
i|ial all'airs.
I liavc; not
I I 1)0 iicce.s-
rccnicnt, it
I a 1)1 licr
it' -"i'.! wi're
ivould he a
)• mitrlil !)(',
iiiH' |»'()|)le
itimciit in
:e it a suc-
r provint'o
I'rn\ inces
mi;;ht vfite
might ii\\t'
leu it came
iiiort' (hrti-
3 againsi a
a |iii)hil)i-
md sale of
uiiicss the
fa sou I' of
our a ]>U'-
tifc iniijht
■ (if II. I
)lc fur ihc
what was
ion hi'inii
o.
II ' Yes,
such an
Should he
■ sfhenio
l(
leitotlie
k would
liliire to
with the
I's, sho\dd
1 think
he only
I By Rfv. Dr. Mi'Leod:
I .")1H)'). You lla^•e stated lliat the license law ha\e heeii hiitter oh>erved in Winni-
% jieg recently. To what do you atUihule tiie hettei- ohsei'vanee? -Tiit^ ([uestion as to the
i enforcement of the License Act was hrought up cai'ly this year, and the Dejnity .Minis-
.;;; terof Justice stated that the duty helonged to the city. The Boai'd of I'olice Commis-
•^ sioneis claimed that it rested with the IJepartnient of .Justice, and thei'e has heeu agood
) deal of eori'i'spondence in legard to tlie niattei', and recently we hav^■ heen pi'essing it.
% I tiiink ))i<ihai)ly tiie result has heen tiiat the l^icense (Jonnnissioners. who I helie\'(>
|| wcie enforcin;,' the law here, have heen looking mor(! carefully after the \iolations.
ji; ;)l4(Jt). I was told that last Sunday and dufing a good part of the wei'k, all the
M' liolels were closed up at a pro]iei- liour in the e\-ening and closed on Sunday uhieli I
M luideistand has not heen the case hefore. Then the attempt to secure hcl lei' enfor^-i'-
% iiieiit has done good '. -Y'(.'s, it has done good so far.
I :il K»7. Do you heliove that if an lionest attemjit wei-e niadi: to enforce the law, it
;1 could he enforced? — I do not think there is the slightest trouhle in carrying it out,
M except in .some special cases.
^ .'!1K)S. You have spoken of your I'Xpeiience in and knowledge of the North-west
A Tiiriiories. and 1 think you stated that during the early y<'ars of the prohihitory law,
■i, it s'.'emeil to jiroiluee a very good eil'eet indeed ?--Y''es.
•| .iliOU. But latterly I undeistand it was not so w('ll enforced. Did it lose its
xf enforcement ahout the time of the introduction of the 1 ])er cent heer f — I think the
,* non-enforcement hegau hefore that : that is to say, that pci'uiits hegan to he issued
•% indiscriminately.
S .'il no. That non-enforcement kept f)n inci-easing, I.supi)ose, an<l the railway jiassing
4 ihroiigli the country, no douht heljied the non-enfoi'cemenl a good deal. 1 >o you think
;| it would have been better, if in.stead of resorting to the granting of licenses, an honest
^ ethirt had been niiule to enforce a prohihitory law in the Territories, such a.-, that in
^ force in the early years. l)o you think the granting of licenses produced a better state.
i^ of tilings than the former system, because the permit system j)erinitted li(iuor to go in
'I e\('ry where. Do you think it would ha\(' heen better' to ha\e more ligidly enforced tlu!
';; law,' 1 do not know whether with the extent of territory you have there, and with
hcpior ;dl r(jund it, you could hav(> carried such a law out successfully at the present
% time.
% •">llll. The law was, as vou have >tated, \erv well carried out in early years? — ■
•'/ The territory was largo and the number of people in the country was very small. I now
spc d< more particularly of the northern .section. 1 belii'\e a. good deal of liipioi' was
^: hiiiiigiii in from the south, it being smuggled ; but in the Saskatchewan district, at
*. I'.dmonton. Prince Albert and I>ittleford, I beli(^ve the law was carried out almost to
? till' letter. f have no doubt i)rohi!)ition could b(> fairly well enforced to-day, althoiigli
probably not as well as in early days.
1.; .'51412. r supi)ose a large population and railway faiilities. which nudce transport
ea-,iir, iiiak>^ a great difference ; but 1 understand you believe that with proper othcials
and proper attention to the law. it could Ite faiily well enforced e\i'ii now .' It could be
fairly well enfor'ced.
31 H."). i)(j you thiidc that (luring the \>\u's there w.is enfori'cmi'iit, it was a great
h(Mielit to the country 1 — Y''es.
31114. Was the plebiscite in .Manitoi)a a \ cry em|)hatie e.xpression of the opiinon
iifthe people on tlie ((uestion of prohibition.' l)o you think peo[>le were really in
earnest in voting for prohibition .' [ think so.
3111."). ^V(^ have had it in evidence that they did it r.ir fun ; and of course as you
have been in the country a long t ime as a resid^-Tii and are wi-11 acpniinli'd with the
Jieople, I thought I would ask you whether you thought the peojile meant their vote on
this iptestion to he a sort of joke? — 1 think they ineatK it.
•") 1 1 1('). 1 )id not \Viiuii|)eg give a \ery large majority in fa\ out >f prohibition ? — Yes.
31417. Would that seem to mean that tin- people of Winnipeg' aie decid»^ily
opjioseii to the license law, and that a large majority of them are in favour "rf prohibition?
I should .say so. There is not any ditiiculty in enforcing the licence law in Winnipeg.
55
!l
Ml
Mil
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
."^ItlS. I utidcrstiind tliiit ;i 1,u'l;o inajority lire opposeil to it? — No, not utiill.
•'ill 111. |)<i yuu think it, vvmild 1)(! iiioi't; clidiculfc ti) I'lit'nrue a pniljihilorv law in ii
ccniinmnity wlicic a majurity ul:' Uw pwipic were agfiinst tliat prohiliilory law ! —I do not
siipj)osi' liiat cvcii it' a majority were; against it in a small community, the law could not
be cnt'orct'd all the same.
3 1 4l'0. So far as your observation goes, you believe t liat when there is a law enacted
and proper ollicials a[)|)<iinted for its enforcement, it does not depend \'ei'y much on
pulilic opinion foi' its enfor;;em(.'nt, but that it is a mattei' resting with the otlicers?- it
rests mure with tlie otlicers.
Hi/ JuiI'ji'. McDonohl :
■") 1 ll'l. Mas an ell'ort been made yet in Winnipeg to ha\ e tiie Scott .\ct cairied? - No.
■'il 1i.'l'. JJeing a city, of course you have a right to Imvc the Scott Act xotedon and
jiut in force if you desire ; and as you have stated to Itev. l)r. .McLeod that there is a
very large majority in Winnijx'gin favour of prohibition as shown by the recent vote,
would you be favourable to giving prohibiticjn a trial, by taking tiie iii now within
your j)ower to adopt the Scott Act, without waiting for any a])plicatioi ..liatever to be
made to tlu' liCgislature or the Dondnioi} Farliamcnt ? There haxi'been no etl'orts
made so far, and 1 do not think that all those who voted foi' the plt!biscit(> wt)ul(l lu'ces-
sarily sujipoit the Scott ^\.ct, because many, no doul)t, xoted on tliat question as giving
expression to their views on the (piestion of prohibition.
31 (•_'•'>. Is not the Scott Act prolii!)itioii ? Only to a limited extent, not distinctly st).
•')1 ll!l. l)o you take it that this vote in the jiroxince was foi- the iirovince or for the
Dominion .' -1 take it t hat the xote \\as for the ])rovince, and expressed the \iews of
the province clearly.
3142"). Why shfiuld you not, when you are favourable to prohibition, use the means
at your connnand as a trial, at all events? — The vote tluit was taken has had not the
slightest legislative eilect that I am aware of.
31 4i.M). May it not have had some effect on the ndnds of the legislators in mould-
ing their action, and yet at tlu? same time you have, when you choose to exercise it, the
right to adopt the Scott Act without the favour of the Legislature? — A\'e cannot submit
the Scf)tt Act to the people.
31427. You may have prohibition for a period of three years if the Act is
adopted, and if it is then a success, you can continue it in operation, and if it is not a
success, you can get rid of it. Has there been the slightest agitation amongst the people
in favour of carrying the Seott Act? — 1 think the temperance associations made some
move in that direction a year ago.
31428. I ir.ean since the ])lebisciti> was taken? — No move has been made by them.
3112!). Is it your opinion that the people favour some larger measure? — T take it
that they endorse a larger measui'e.
31430. In taking this vote, was any ipu'stion of machinery or mode of crystallizing
the sentiment of the people into an Act of ParlianuMit subnnttetl to the people, or was
it a bare vote for or against prolnl)itit)n ? — Yes.
31431, Then the method of pi'ohibition was not submitted ? — Not so far as T know.
Jiji li<r. Dr Mi-Lcod:
314.'52. You are an employer of labour, I b(4ie\p ?- -Yes.
31433. Do you employ labour to any considerable extent? — Yes,
31434, Have you any rule which you apply as regards the driidcii g habits of your
men in selecting employe(>s ; do you give the preference to men who arc drinking nu'ii ?
— I think my men, although I nev(ir asked them th(! (juestion, ai'e all temperate, but I
do not say they are total abstainervS.
3143"). Having to select employees, and choose between men who aic haliitual
drinkers and those wlio are total abstainers, woidd you give the preference to abstainers ?
— I would not have an habitual drinker.
31430. He is less valuable to the employer? — Yes, aiul 1 have had a good deal of
experience on that point.
Ale.xaxdkr McDonalij.
06
le some
57 Victoria.
SeK.sional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.")ll.">7. I )i»'s tluMlritik liiiliii iiflrci t lie \vii!.;t'-<'iiriiiiii,' power of ciiiployi'cs, ii\ yoiir
>]iiiiion ; - A'cs.
till' drink li.iliit loses more or less
.'il4;58. JlilNi' you liotiee(| whether ;i Mian liii\iii
lime on account of tlie liahit .' — ^Ves, lie loses time.
.'il-t^i'.). lOmployers claim tluit they h)se Ity men i)eini,' idle on account of their drink
haiiit, and not alone l)ecause they drink, hut because tlie ilrink haliit makes them
iirei;ulaf at tlu-ir woik ? l''.mployers say tliat some kitids of work are interfei'ed witli
liecause when one man drinks, a ;:aiii; is sometimes hroki'U up and work is liindeied.
."•IMO. Ifave you o!)ser\'ed whether it is true that the drink haltit not oidy iuter-
fircs with the man liimself, aiul causes him to hjse w.iijes, but that it also interferes with
other men who are eiiL'ayi d in I he same ^' mu ? In mv case I ha\'e liad some troulile,
Ijut it lias only allected the man himself and not the rest of the men.
.")| 111. Did it all'ect your business iindertiikiiig ? — Yes.
."il 14l'. As a business man, lia\e you noticed that tin- drink trade has an injurious
cU'ect on other iiranches of business.' }la\-e you noticed that the men are able to pur-
chase less of other articles because they drink, and that Tnev are poorly paid because
they drink .' — 1 could not say so from personal obsei'vatioii.
■ Mll.'i. Some business men claim that men with tlio dri'>k habit are more jioorly
paid than if they liad not sucii a habit, and that tiiev sutler fromtiiis drawbai'k in
adilition to the money they waste on drink .' — To ra certain extent tliey lose money,
which they would otherwise spend in other lines of trade, but to what extent it .lilecls
business, I t'annot say ; thouijh if they took- the money sjient on li(juur, they could well
-jiciid it in some other direction.
A'y Judyr McDonald ;
'■\\\\\. What do you mean by an habitual drinkei' ? — A man who drinks st(>adily,
probably not always to excess, or a man, as I have seen them, who will not taste li(|uor
for months and then yo off anil get on a .spree for two or three weeks at a time.
.'ill \->. Take a man who drinks a glass of ale every day at his dinner : doyiui mean
a man of that kind /-No,
•'ill Hi. You mean a man who "itlier habitually drinks to excess, or occasionally
<lrinks to excess and goes on a spree. A n)an who occasionally drinks to excess and
goes on a spree and is away from work for .some time, or a man who starts in tli»' morning
to drink three or four glasses of li(|Uor during the day, and keeps up that iialiit? — Yes.
.'51-147-!^. I>ut by the drinking habit you nu'an such habit as is the habit of men you
speak of.' — Yes, that of a man who takes liipior in exces.s, or if not taken to excess,
takes three or four drinks from time to time. \n such a cases their ajjpetites have pos-
session of them, aiul it is only a nuestion of time till they go.
of your
ng men '/
te, but ]
labitual
;tainers ?
x\ of
1
J
•I.VMKS L. iSTEKN, of Winnipeg, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
liy Jiidye MrDonahl:
."51 44!). What position do you occupy in this city? T am President of the Winni-
]icu' iioard of Trade.
.">I4.")(). Mow long have you been a resident of Winnipeg? I have been a resident
of this city for 11 years.
•'il451. How long ha\e you been President of the Hoard of Tr.ide .' -This year only;
the election goes by rotation.
."{hirii.'. In what line of business are you engaged.' I am a jirinter and publisher.
.314o.'i. t)f a newspaper f Of a purely trade journal.
.'il4r)4. How long have you iioeii engaged in the business ?- -Ten years or a little
'i\er ; (>ver since I came here.
•'ilirj."). Did you come from any other Province of Canada to Winnipeg?- I came
iicre from the citv of C'hicago ; I never lived in Canada before coming here.
57
:'
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'il I •")(>. HiiNt' yiiii olisci'vcd llic udikiii^' nt' tli<' lii|uiir l,i\v in t liis I'ldvimc ; I Ii;i\ r
not ;^i\('ii liny |>iii'ticuliir study \i> tlic workiii!^ of (lie li(|U()r law iiiyscit'.
.■ill">7. Tlit'ii you ai'c not in ii jiosition to state wlictlicr its |niivisioiis iirc! well
obsiM'\('il oi- not ? -I oould not siiy as to its details, hceause [ lm\e ni'ver watched tlieni
so elo^ely as to know w liat the (h'tails of the Act are.
;U loS. Are you alih^ to ex|ii('ss an opinion as to whet tier I lie Siniday prov isions are
well ol)sei\ I'd or not .'I could not say ; I he fact of the ni.itler is, I am not w hei-i' lii|Uor-
is sold on Siuiday.
."illo'.l. Then you lia\ !■ no knowledge on that iHiint.' On that point I coulil not
jiWc the (."onnnission any infoi mat ion.
.■il4(iO. As a business man, aic you in a |>osition to know whether the tratiic atTccts
tilt! business art'iirs of the ooimnunity, injuriously or benelieially .' -That is a pretty
wide <|U(^stii)n. I hav(> known many indi\idu;ds to whom the excessive use of di'ink has
done harm. Xo man can deny that fact. I have seen a nund)er of individuiil cases
\vher(^ men liax'e caused themselves a inicat deal of injury by the excessive use of
li(|Uor in l)Usiiu'ss, but when it comes to cases of bard<ru|iti'v, 1 lia\e known that in
five civsHS out of si.x where whisky was blamed for everythini:', whisky w.is tlu! result
of the mans ruin connnei'eially.
."UMil. I fave you e\er considered the I piest ion of the treat meiil that woidd be ad-
visable for the peisistent drinker .' 1 am not a medical man.
;{] Mi-. Wni are aware that there are many men who i,'o to jiul for short terms and
after bcinii released, ar(! shortly afterwards a,u;ain conunittcd. Should there not be some
method adopted by which these people could bi^ sent to some institution to be cured or
kept out of harm's way '( — T am not a medical man. The man who nuns himself with
li((Uor is more or less a maniac. We all have ovw weak [)oiids, and that undoubtedly is
the weak point with certain men ; they are more or less maniacs on that point. As
to advising a certain course to be taken in rcLfaril to their treatment, the dei'ision of
that ijuestion needs a wiser he.id than mine. The mode of treatment would reijuire to
be varied according to the tem|ierament.
.'il M);'>. IIa\-eyou studied the ([uestion as to the advisability of encomai,Mng the
use <if ales ;ind lii^ht w ines and doiuL,' away with heavier drinks, such as spirits .' - [ can
oidy speak fni- myself. 1 shut down on alc-s and li^dit wines and such drinks, and now
take sti'ai,i,'ht malt whisky if 1 drink anylhinit, well diluted with water. It is sate
li(juor to drink. I believe in regard to other li(|uors that substances are used to co\fr
up their adull(!ration, and that these compounds are most xillainous adulterations.
:llb')l. Then y<ai belie\e there is much adulteration among the drinks used f -[
think llieic nmst Ixi and there certai.dy is. Looking at the l»lue iSooks I icceive from
tinu' to lime from the Inland Ri'\enue ! )ei)artment, I notice as regardsspirits, that there is
comparatively little adulteration, while in wines there is consiiteral)le, and even still
more in coiHiection with teetotal bexcrages. Those are the facts 1 gathereil from the
Blue Jiooks issueil by the Inland Kevenue I)epartment.
.■•Ijli'i. Have you had any expei'ienci' of the woiking of a pi'ohibitory law .' 1
lived in the State of Iowa for a few year.s, which is under a jiartial prohibitory system,
and the Legislativii body now in power in the State was elected under the partial pro-
hibitory system in force there.
.■)IM)(). How did you iind the system work ! -So far as prohibiting drinking is con-
cerned, the success has not lieen so great as it was under licen.se. They are law-
abiding peo])le, and of cour.se that circumstance would contribute to the success of any
means. The actual state of afl'airs was decidedly opjio.sed to the success of the measure. 1
had a very marked instance about fifteen months ago, when a bi-other-in-law of mine
who resides in Iowa paid me a xisit, and stayed two or three weeks with me. I may
say that I had gon(> in with the prohibition party myself before I left there, because the
roughs and toughs as a body are opposed to prohibition, whereas the respectable party
are on the prohibition side, and therefore I went with them. My biother-in-law has
worked strongly with the jjrohibition l)arty for thirteen or fourteen years. His jiarting
words with me on leaving were: " I think Prohii)ition is a huge l)lunder."' That was
his verdict. He said to me : " F liaxc looked for a drunken man since T came to
J.\Mi:s L. Stkkn.
' 58
I
m
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
?— I hiive
s arc well
I'lii'd llii'iii
\ isiims lire
lltTI' liiiuoi'
(•(111 1(1 IK it
illic iiirccjts
s il pfuttv
' drink has
dual cases
vc use of
ill that in
tlie result
luiil lie ad-
teniis and
lit lie Slime
)c cured iir
iniseit' with
iiulitedly is
pi lint. As
(lecisiiin of
r(>i|uire to
iiaj^in;;' the
ts ? — I can
s and now
It is safe
1 til c(i\ei'
ions.
used /—I
■(■five from
lat tlierc is
even still
from the
iv law?- 1
|iv system,
artial pro-
line is con-
are law-
I'ss of any
asure. T
of mine
|c. I may
cause the
lile pai'ty
lindaw has
[is iiarting
I'riiat was
came to
M.iiiili
lia. anil ha\ c not seen one vd.
II
e went on a stcaiiilioat e\c\nsion on the lied
liiver when t here were ."iiill |ieo|il(iiii hoard the lioat, ami he said: ''In |irohiliiloiy
owa we Would ha\e L'.i oi
.id
lieo|i|e drunk, and at least a do/en
liLdit
s on hoard
!1 JliT. And here what did he lind? -lleic all was jipmcc,
;i litis. Till
CSC are the opllilous lie expressed to ye
ipiiiion after livin;; in Iowa and iciiiainiii;.; here for thn
if Wiiiniiieu'.
This wa^ his expre-sioii of
■ik>. iirinciiiallv in the cii v
11 I tilt, h
to th
i> i|llesllon ot pi'olillill loll, then, (|o Voll liillik It VMill
III
iiih i-aolc in
the best interests of the coiiiiininit v
to lia\c a pi'iiliiliitorv enact meiit, an
.\it |irohil>itiii;; the luantifacturc, impiirtatiiin and sale ot alcoliolic lii|uors for lie\eraj;o
purposes, passed liy the hominioii I'ailianicnt .' I think it would he a piece of iheuiost
iiiiiiiil iLtated folly to have such an .\ct passed. While I lielic\c there arc sect ions of the
1 10111110011 ill which |irohihitioji could he carried out with |iriilit, I am ciioULtli "' 'i 'msi-
iicss man to see t he folly of such a proposal, csjiccial I \ a measure w hidi would reach fnnii
the .\tlaiitic to the I'acific.
.'11 I'd. "^'oil think there miulil lie special couiiiiuiiil ies where, owiiii; to the local
scntimeut and local action, such a law iiiii;ht he carried out .' I have seen such to lie the
icohic I'encrallv wcri'o\(>r-
ilii'li
in Iowa in the town of (Jreunel, were the clci'Lty and the |
;lv in favour of proliihition and the total extinction of the tratllc. I'rohiliiti
worked rin'lit eiiou
;li, hut
lit ni I'lihiiiiui
|)aveiiiiort, .^lal•sllalllow ii .mil I )es .Moinei
althiiui;li the Local Lciiislatui'e had l(.',i,'ali/.ed proliihition ; thos(> en!,'aL;ed in the trade did
not mind incurrinn- the risk of sale; in other woi'ils, as regards Ijirtje cities, the law
was a dead letter.
.'11171. I >id till' lic^islatiire pass a proliiliitory law .' Yes. and they have liiinj^
stroiii,'ly to il. While it wjisadead letter in the places I ha\c na
meii. It was ca
ml III ( Ircnnel ai
d .\i
lies and in other tilaccs where il was altinrctlier uuiicccssjirv am
rried
1
, here the people diil not really re(|uire it.
11 I"--'. Arc tl
ere not some jilaces where a |iidliioitorv or temperance law is not
uccessarv
usai,'e IS stroniicr than any law you can |iass.
.'lIlT.'i. What is the cll'ecl on the pulilic conscience of having a law on tin' shitiitC'
liook which is persistently, constantly and llai;raiitly violated ; istheell'ecl for i^'ood or
fill' e\il '! f do not think it would el(\ate the people's idea of law and order.
law ]irohiliit inu the
or hcvcrai;!' iiuriios's, do \iiii
I. Supposiuji; such a law wcn> to he passed in (_aiiail
III
inufacture. importation and sale of into.xicatin.u liipiors f
iliiiik remuneration should
le made to hrewers and distillers tor their pl.int
1 tl
we
lia\-e had a voi'v uood example in the hill T)assed l>v the Hritish I'arli.i
imeni latelv. m
which the men who are en,i,'aifed in the trade were to he iiidcmnilicd.
A'V U>r. Dr. MrLod.
A
( •!. As a mai
duct
I haviii!,' to do with the husiiicss nlfairs of thecountrv. and cou-
diictini' a
trade ioiirnal, have you noticed whether the drink trallic.
as such, iniures liusi-
iiess, interferes with industry, atl'ccis a.ifricultural inten^sts, home life and the family
interests of the eounti'V i \ will take the last lirst. Heitiirdinu' the faniilv interests, I
as a liachelor until recentlv and \ can sav
>iness alVairs, I do not k
now w
lictl
\ cry little alioiit family aH'airs. Ucifardini;
Icrale drinker or a teetotaller until
ler a man is a iiio(
1 I
ia\e known him for some time,
h
In t
us cit\' to manv liusmess men
the I
lar-room is
useless in hiisines:
ITii. Was it at some time useful
It
was made use o
f. 1
il did iiooil in the hoolii days, when cveryliody lost his head. Tl
lie fi
do not know whclhcr
icre were a ureat manv
I'ople freiMieiitly in tlu! liar rooms drinking', incliidini; some of our husiness men
N
ow
the II,
■r, matters ha\e got down to husiness, and it is :ieldom proposed to go to
:!1177
ucss ideas.
To what do you attriliiite this clian
M.
11 are getting down to our htisi-
;U17>s. Tl
len vou UK
lude the av
oidiiiir (I
f liars.' Y
es, durum liusmess hours.
< If course a man may he boarding in an hotel. I have discovered since 1 liecame a
family man that on certain week days it is hettcr tu take lunch down town, and I takft
a glass of beer or claret the .same as T do at home.
59
IMAGE EVALUATION
TEST TARGET (MT-3)
/.
1.0 IS'- i
I.I
1.25
25
>^» 1^
llllll^
lis llll|2£
1.4
1^
1.6
V]
v:
^>
/^
.vv,v. <;y
'/
Photographic
Sciences
Corporation
^•N
iV
EN
k
'i?
^\
6^
^
<^
23 WIST MAIN STREET
WEBSTER, N.Y. US80
(716)872-4503
^
^^
L^
II
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
iii
^
31471). Still yiui tliink tliat wIkmi tlif Ixir \tiis used as an acljuiK't t(i l)ii>"''-'",i, it
wjw not a 1,'imhI tliiii;^ t'nf tmsiiicss .' It was not.
.'{lll^tJ. You consider tlic rlian^'i' tliat lias taken place is important .' — Tlie elianjje
lias f{ra(lually eonie alwiut atnoni; liusines.s men. Thi^y ritsort to liar-i'ooms less. Very
few of oiM' laisiness men are seen tliere.
.'U |Sl. So the usin;; of liar-rooms is an injury to business? Wlion carried to ex t renin
it is an irijnry to laisines.s, most de( idedly.
.'Jl iX'2. Ila\e you ol>.ser\ed liow tiie liquor trade allects tlie other industries of tlie
eotuitry ( I sluaiiilsay that tht: l)rewinjj; trade, for instance, is (|uite a valuaM'" industry
to this city, so fiir as the em|iloyment of labour is concerned.
.'U (s^.'i. l>o you think the jiatrons of theproduct of the lireweries aro more \alualile
employees than those wlio do not take it ? I liaxe had men wiio took dtinlr, and also men
who did not, and I could not tell oni^ from the other. ThiMuust faithful man I have,
om; who would do almost anytliin;; for me, takes his drink ••very day.
;?IIS}. And 1 su|ipose you have others almost as faithful who would not take a
drink umler any consideration .' ^'es : I do not know the ditlerence lietwcen them.
;tl4S."». |)o you lielieve the industries of the i-ountry other than lireweries and dis-
tilleries are aHVx'ted injuriously oi' hcnelicially l»y the drink trade.' There are cases of
imlividuals who run to extremes in the UHe of intoxicatinj>; drinks, whether connected
with industrial husine.ss or anythin<i; else, and their husiness nnist prove an entire
failui'e.
lilli^ti. Have you noticed whether the a;;ricultural interests are atlecied injuriously
or lieneticially Wy the drink Irach- ? I cannot say I have noticed it. I au) not a farmei'
myself.
.'11487. Have you noticed whether farmers are injuriously or lieneticially alFecttMl
l»j' the drink traile .' You nnist jud;,'e liy tht^ class of people whom you find under the
iidluence of li(|Uor. \ know no class of men of whom fewer are all'ected hy licpior than
our fai'uu'rs coming; to town, es[H»cially considerin;^' the ^i-eat temptations to which tln-y
are expo.sed and the lonf{ distances they travel on cold ilays. I am often astonished
to see how very few of them are «'vei- seen intiixicated.
31488. |)c's that m(>an that the trallic does not injuriously art'ect the farmers he-
cause they a\did diink .' Ye.s, to a j;reat extt-nt.
3148!). Yfiu spoke of family life: havej.iu noticed whether family interests are
all'ected injuriously or lieneticially by the drink trade/ I know .so little about family
life that I can j^ive very little aid on this subject. If you ask me alMiut mercantile all'airs,
I am posted, and I can tell you somethinji about them. I have been a family man
only siiice March last. I had a home, but there was no one there except my father. I
have nevi'r been a scx'ial man and have not jjoiu; into society. I have never bt^en a Club
man or anythin;; of that .sort, and I have had a ]iiMir chance of judging of the social
effects of the tratlic.
31 41)0. So you have not noticed the.se |ioints particularly f -My evidence would
have very little \alue on these points.
31410. You have taken an interest in the mercantile affairs of the coinmuiuty? —
Yes.
.'$I4VI'_'. I think you have stated that you have observed men resctrt to whisky when
they had become ruined commercially ?— -Yes.
3I4!*3. ||ii\e you noticed that the whisky habit has in any deforce contributt'd to
their i-ottenness connnercially .' I"\iur or live out of every six run to whisky after tludr
affairs become in a rotten state ; when I have einpnred into their affaiis, 1 have found
that <iut.
31494. Woidd it be true that one fifth become ruined commercially by the whisky
trade/ I would not say that, but there is a proportion of men in business who have
been more or less addicted to the habit, and who.se want of success in business can be
more oi- less attributed to the excessive use of li(jUor.
3141(5. Take Winnipej^, where I judge you have had several years' experience, and
where y<»u a]ipear to be accpiainted with connnercial matters, do you remember the Imioui
days? — Yes I remember them pretty well.
jAMtiH L. Stekn.
60
iiiii
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
tncxtl'Olllft
.'t I I'.Xi. I Mi|i|>i>sc thci'c i^^ a iiiiti'k)Ml rise ami fall licri- anions iiini in laiNiri
II.
Vdil hiitii'cd wlii'tlit'l' a lar;;i' |ii'ii|ini't ion ut' tlli>s>' wlin lia\c i;i(|i<' In the wall wi'r'c liM'li
II wtTO llK-apaci
latcd
III sdllli' (
|ci.'r''<' I'V 'I
K- will
liiskv lialiil
<'s, nianv cnii
I'l
liiiiilit I race tlii-ii- ilowrfall tn li<|Ui)r and t(i lii|iiir only.
.■'ill'.*". Was it a factor in their (lownfall f I c mid not tt-ll you ; '.l") pci- i-ciit of
limbic who went iiiidcr the (list livti vears I was here, went iiinlt'r throuifli n-cklcss spcci!-
lal loii^
had f\
Til
t' y w< III
hft'ii iiiadc.
Id I
d.
ia\c ilolH' so
if ihiTf had hrrn no whiskv hcii', or if no whisky
:il I'.tS. Wen- the causes related to each other.'- I'rohahlv so, liiit whisky was the
■-iiialier.
•'11 I '.•'.•. |)o you think ihe whisky trade <-ontiniied the cra/e of the hooiii days ? —
No. I do not think so.
.'i|'i<lli. I am told that wine llowcd freely and th.it chaiii|>at.Mie was used, and that
« hisky and the like were ])raclica!ly ij,'nore(l .' 1 .saw t he Iiihmii in all its ifrandeiir. I
went alioiit with a satirical laii;;.'li think in;; what fools were around nie. T (lid not put a dollar
late, llioiiuli I drank pretty freely, vei'\ iiiiich more than I lia\e since. I
III real es
reiirat llial 1 never put
put one dollar into speculation.
.'ll">nl. \,,H have spoktui alioul the e\ ils of excessi\e u.se of li(|Uor : do you think il
i^ well to cstaltlish a liusiness which provides facilities for, what you may call making,'
maiiiiics of men ( — If a man is determined to hecoine a nuiniac, he will find the means.
I never saw a liarri'l of li(iuor !,'o down a man's throat and make a maniac of him. My
eN|iei'ience is in coiiiniei'cial atl'airs, and if a man is determined lo lia\e liipior he will
Imn some means cit u'ettinn it. aix
I if 1
le caiino
I oht;
nil lii|iior, he will olitain somctliin!.'
'ilCiO-. Is the fact thi.t a man is determiin-d to use liipior and will lind means fo
dolll'' so,
a reason that the Stitc .should jirovide tl
le means :
I did not sav that th
Stale provides the iiieai
IS.
;|.")(l.i. Or the fi
icllltie:
It is jiisl like this : it is a i|Uention as to which
the liest means of deal in;; with this ijiicstion ; w hether il is not I letter to alliird facilities
for a man to olttaiii li<|iior or not. In my opinion you cannot olitain any hetter means
of dealing; with it. If that is the cpiestioii. I must .say I have never ;;iven it sutlicient
study. .My lirain has U'en taken up with too many other tliiii!;s to study such a i|Ues
I ion as that.
.'i|o(l|. Noll iiave sjiokcn of teetotal lievi'iaye^ and t heir a(iulterat ion ^ C'otiee i.s
■)(J.'i. Vmi .sav ihcv are \crv seriously adulterated .' ^'
.•11. ■!()(;
e any othei-s adulterated '. — Ves. all the cordials and stiiU'of that
oil.
I noticed particularly in one of the r.liie Itooks to which I lefern d that there was.i
ifieal amount of adulteration. In one IMue I'look which ileali with 'I'oronlo, I
I hat not a sin:
not ice<
;le specimen of cotVee was pure. The same Itlue Uook stated that the
Mdiiheralion of some lorei;;n spirils was trilling and some spirits xvie not adulterated.
ll.-iOT. You have spoken alioni nrohiliit
I
came liert
II
vears ai;o or a litl le om
tlh
lion III Iowa
II
II
.1 I
\\!i \m
OW II
well! liac
ve you lieen lieri
to I
ow a for a few
ntlis to ti\ up my atl'airs. I lived a few months down llieie. and I cam
ii;aiii ;ui(l ;;ot started in the siimmei of i^Sl.'. I jjot ri;;hi down to liiisini
■k 1 1
ere
II I
was here
the
yea I- ])re\ loii-
.'tj'iOS. Then voiir oliserv atioii of |ii'oliilii' ion in Iowa
Won III I II it
lie practically
oliservation of the slatiitoiy |iroliilpiiioii liiit of pari iai pnihihiiiun ' I saw it when! was
hacjx at that lime.
■'ll'iO'.i. The proliiliition enacimeiil. I lielieve, was not enacted until |K,H4r — I saw
It when I went hack. I had lieeii traxcllint; Imekwaid .ind forward. I was down tit
the lime they were canvassiiii,' for that Ad.
;M."i|l). |)ii you think a casual visit is sullicieiil to enal
ipinion on such a i|uest\on
le one to form a correct
I did not sei'ii hit of i-haiue. I saw places in Iowa, when
prohihitinn was in operation as they were l»efoi-e.
•'U.')ll. You saw the law violated, as I suppose all laws are violated more or less (
I do not iMoiiti to say that any law i.s very tiiorou^hly olwervod in a community ; if it
was so, there would not he a necessity for any law whatever.
' tlT
Tirr
''3
itt
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'UJJl^. Is it nut true tliat in some coniinunitics tlio law is In-tter (il)s<.'rved than in
others ? — Yes.
.■U')!."}. ])(M's it follow that alth<>ii<;li such a law may not lie well ohsorvod, it is
necessarily a failiirt- and should he rt'iicali'd f- -Takini; the evil clleclsof li<|iior, and all the
vile poisons that wei-e sold there foi- liijuor, all theevils that, pmhiliition lii-oui^hl with it, it
nii^ht Ik! a i|uesti<'!i whether prohiliilion ever did any f;on<l or not.
.■H">14. You have state<l that you atiiliatcd yourself somewhat with the prohiliition
party when y<iu resided there.' I have worked with them in the civic elections.
.■U">1">. That was, I U'lieve, liecause the rou;,'hs and toujjhs and had people wei-e
arrayed on the other side .' On that occasion they were.
.■U.">l<). hid it ever occur to you that the fact that the rou^'h peoj)le and the l)a<l
jKHiple were arrayed on the othi'r side wius at all si;,'nificant '{ —It may he so, owing to
circumstances, such as railway l)uildin<r and one tliitii,' or another in the place.
.■Ur)17. You spoke of your friend havinj,^ visited you, an I the fact that he did not
see a drunken nuin in Manitoi>a during the three weeks he had heen here? — Not three
weeks.
.■11518. I oidy came to this city on Saturday night and on Sunday 1 saw three
drunken men. -I did not see them.
•SloUt. I was wondering whether there was adillereiit state of things prevailing at
the time ')f your friend's visit than there is now, esf)ecially in view of the fact that we
have had the testimony of the .Mayor that during the last five weeks, especially on the
Sahhaths, (he law has l)een hetter enfi»rc(Ml than for a long time previously. In \ lew
of the fact of that l>etter enforcement, an<l the fact that I saw three druid<en men on
Sunday, although I was not l(H)king for them, I have heen wonderin.i; if when your
friend was hei-e, tlu' law was lieiiii; hetter enforced than now? It was only a year ago
last suiiimei-. I am pretty suri' that there was no hettei- enforcement of the law then.
;JI">l!0. You have statetl that in some sections ynu think a prohihitory law <'ould
1h' carried out. What sections woulil they lie /-The .sections would he those whei'e pro-
hil>ition would not l>e necessary on account of the chai-acter of tho.se .sections.
■■M">"_'1. Then it couhl he cnf irced where it was not needed ? -Yes. I'\tr instance, I
have tia\ died throu^di the Territoiies a gcKiil deal, and you c.iuld not (Miforce prohiliition
in the Territories.
.'{1')1.'2. Why .' — They ha\e Inicn tr<ud>le(l with a law that is a farce. No doulit in
a few years a portion of the Territories will return again to prohiliition, Kastern Assini-
hoia for instance. .Allierta you will never ;tet to prohiliition.
.■U."il!;<. Woulil that law he j,'o(kI or evd ! ^ I do not know : if it plt>ases the people
it will lie all right : if not. it will he all wrong.
.■{l"iL.'l. Do you think that in these days lienetit woulil result from a jirohiliilory
law ?- I do not tiiink so. f helieve that the state of the oonnnunity shows thu"^ with-
out interference of the law, it is as i;ond as it would lie undei' prohiliition, and o. course
prohiliition is unnecessary in that event.
.'{I')"-'"). Is that tiue of other laws.' I do not know ; I sup|iose it is. 1 have never
investigated the matter in regard to other laws, hut I siippiis»> it is true of a good many
1 iws.
.■U-"iL'*i. Is it true that where laws ai'e ohserved they .'ire not necesstiry, that the
condition of the |ieo|i|e is so good th.it (iie laws are siiiierlluous ? Von siiy that a |iro-
hiliiiory la\\ would he ohserxed in certain ]ilaccs liecause the condiiion of the people is
excellent .' It would he simjily enforcing a law where it was unnecessary.
.■{1")"_'7. Hut, of course, it would he oh.served in other places/ — You nmst not run
away with the idea that T say a ))rohiliitory law or any other law is a failure liecause it
is not strictly ohserved. You are trying to push me on that platform, hut I will not go
there.
.■U")'.'8. You said, in ai\swer to Judge McDonald, that the eH'ect of a law that was
per.-istently and flagrantly violated must he very hud /— Y'es : 1 say it would not elevate
the ]ie<iple's respect for law. That is my answer exactly.
.■Ur)2y. Then your answer is that the violation of the law would not elevate the
pe<»ple's respect for law ? — Yes.
J AM KM L. STKKN.
62
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
i;i\(' M«'\t'r
joud many
si iiitt run
lici'iuisf it
ill not "'o
.'tl.").'JO. Ytiu inoiii tilt' pci'sistcnt iinil tl;i<;nuil violation of tin' law. I>y all tlie
ncniilc or Wy a section ot' llu' |m'o]»U' wliicli do you mean .' I niran iti a community.
In Miv opinion a law that only ((M'tain |pcoplc rcspcft is j)owcrlcss to reach the peoj)le.
;nr):il. Is it, then, a violation of the law i)y the people or liy a section of the
people ( The influence exteniU to the people who hreak it, hecausethe community com-
iijiic with and conspire to defeat the law.
."Uolil'. So the law woidd Ijr had for that leiison? No, I do not think the law
would lie l)ad.
:U").'{."{. l)o you think the law is an educator .' I sometimes think it is I i'ememl)er
1 was in the (Statt! of .\rkan.sas, where I -eniained ovei- ii week, and the nund)er of
ilrinkini; places was so marx'ellously decreased when the prohihition law was enforced,
thai I came to the conclusion that the law is an ei
I neat
or after all.
.'UoiJI. If the liipior ti'atiu.' is such a had thin;; in it-^ etleets and thert
IS a law
a!,'.iinst it, and it is persistently and tla^rantly liroken, do you helieve that the law,
l( ircther with all iitteni)>ts to enforce it, Im.s a had ell'ect on the people ? -No, if the
I |ile are convinced that the licjuor trade is .vron;;. You must fii-st comince the people
that the t rattle is a crime.
I{irt."{.">. |)oes the law help to convince tiie jieople that the tratlic is a cri
me
Criminal law deals only with crime. You start with the assumption that the people are
all convinced that the tratlic is an evil. Some are and some are not, I suppose.
.■U;"i."W). Would the law strengthen sentiment in that direction.' ! (|iu'stioii if it
would. The law can lie made ridiculous hy trying' to enforce sinnethint; against the
wishes of the people.
;Ur);{7. When you make that statement, do you mean ayainst a section of the
people that disapprove of the law, or do you mean the peojile as a whole/ Of cour.se it
cannot he a law unless the pe(»ple say it should he enacted ,' I )o you mean to tell me
lli.il the Hlue No.ses of Nova Scotia and the l'"orl v-Xiners on the C'oast are impressed
In Canada we lia\(
thollN
san<l communities
Th^
liy vou into one conimunity.
whole thin;; amounts practically to this, let every community pronounce for itself.
The plan will work.
.'?|."i.'5S. I )o you mean that each community sho.ild make a law for itself? -Most
decidedly. I believe in the principle of local option, hut that is \eiv daiiiierous the way
niajorilies ai'i' mtw.
;t 1 oli'.t. Winnipeg;, for instance on the recent vote i.y a lart;e majority declared
lliat the peo|)le did not want the whisky trade. I )o you helieve there should he a law
;aii/in,i;the whisky trade.' lfthe|ieople helieve it, if you have tl
then you are ri;,'hl on the piinciplt^ at once.
le ra.f imii>iiIi
llu. Do V
oil i.'l\e t
vidcnce as I'icsideiit of the Hoard of I'rade of Wii
iiiipei; :
I
nil uiviii;; my evidence as an individual. I have no rij^lit to dra;; in the ISoard of
I have never asked an e.xpression of its opinion, and I am not preteiidiiii,' to
Tl
V'lvc the opinion of tl
W
"I"
hoard of Tradt
I
am sjieakiii!; as James Steen
III/ JikUji' McDimiild :
•W-tW. In regard to the vote
W
innipi'' oi
n I he plehiscil'
you
lire aware,
nodouht, that Winnipi*y may ohtain prohiliitioii witliin a few montiis hy availin;; itself
of the Scott Act. If the |)eople are in favour of that .Act. thev have the riudit to adopt
il fur themselves and have ii retained for a period of three years, and t hei'efore t he
iiialter rests with
then
W.
i\e vol! h''ard of ,inv iiiovenieiil
•111" commenced tor
the purpose of carryinit the Scott Act in W'iiiiiipi
N,
•'iloll.'. Since the vote was taken
No. I
lavt' lieeii aliseiit trolil Ihecilv since t he
viitc was
taken
•'il."il."<. In regard to the i|uestion as to whet her it is rit.dit for the Stale to make
pii'visiou for supplying; liipior to the people in order to make some of I ;>ein maniacs :
you are, of ciair.se, aware that a man need not make himself a maniac from this cause
unless he chooses to do so / Yes, and it is not necessary for tli«^ State to supply the
means at all.
•U.")14. Have you ever considered this point, whether if a hundred people desire
to pui'cliii.se a certain article, and one man abuses that article, whether the rest of the
63
i (
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
liunclred >liiiii|i| Id; proliiltited from huyiii^ it .' I slmuld tliink it would lie a \rv\ •rw-.a
li!irdslii|i to a ^i-fiit mujority. That is the uliicction I li!i\<- to |irii|iiliitj(iii. It iciiiiiids
iiif lit' llic days ot' it'li;,'ious iiitolfi-aiii'i-, wlu^n a oTtaiii iiuiiiImt of |it'u|)lc wci-c so per-
fectly yood tlicy desired to eom|iel others to he ;,'oo<l : hut those ideas are iauulied at>
nowadays. At the present time a ;>reat many •{•nkI and t'hristiiin peoph- praeiise tlie
same kind of intoleranee. On tlie other liand. it must Im* i-ememhered that if (piestions
are to lie decided liy popular vote, it is almost impossiltle not to meet with some
who are not intolerant.
;Ur)4.'i, In Npeakin;^ of Iowa, you descrilied to the C'ommissioneis the state of atl'airs
dead letter, and also tli
e condition
in |)uliU(|ue and in other places where the law is a
of athiirs in (irinnell, where the law is ohserved ; and you were asked whether there
was anv ditl'erence in communities where tlie law was ohserved, and in the <ithers whi-re
it was III
ill
It oil
d. Taki
tl
lose communities in rcL'arc
I t.
I whicli VI 'II
h
1"
illted
out the dilVerences in enforcintj the law re^ai'dinij prohihitioii, did ymi not Hiid in the
cases of iitrciices ai;aiiis: the criminal law, such as murder iind horse stfaliiiji;, tluii the
ort'endcrs would he punished in DulHKpieas well as in (triniiell ! Yes.
.'UriltJ. The communities would have regar<l to the crime fur sr ami view it in
tl
le s line
liuht
."11547. In those places of which you have spoken, tiiinnell and other-
s. wliei'e verv
»troii;j sentiments exist, have they Iweii lirou<.;lit alioiit liy the enactment of |iroliiliit ion
or
as the result of the education of the people on the line of moral suasion .' — I thin
coiisei|Uence of infusin;; the people with temperance ideas
."il'ilS. Not particularly liy eiiforcini,' prt)hiliitiiin on them, hut liv pressini; (cin-
jierance views on
th
I iM'lieve that
th
ase in rciiard t
o some class«'s ot
jieople ; hut there were more prohiliilionists there than in any other place.
.'ilo-Mt. Then with respect to the t'fl'ect in Arkansas : was it tlie eiiforcement of the
law in that direction that led to the amendinent .' It w;is very i(Uick in its results in
educatiliir the people.
'M.'niO. If the law respecting,' the crime of murder had heeii to a lar;;e extent per-
sistently and tlairrantly \ioiated instead of the crime heiiig punished, would you have
had similar heneticial etlects in the communities ? — -Ceitainly not. The nuniher of sellers
dropped down one third in one year as coiii[iared with the numlier hefore the eiiforce-
•nt of the la
w.
•Hl.'i.'il. In rei,'anl to Iowa : may persons lirini; in liijuor |iurcha.sed in other States.'
-Most decidedly so. Tho.se cases come umler the inter state commerce law. [ k«>pt
liipior in the hou.se wh«'n I lived there. I always sent to Chicago for it, and of (-our.se
I never violatoil the law in liringinij it in. I f^ot my su])ply of li<|uoraiid kept it in the
louse, and
I ilid
not treiiuent the saloons
;{|r)."ii!. Take the man who used liipior and had not the means to .send to C'liica<»o
for a supply, what would he do .' lie would have to j{o without.
:n ").■),■{. So the law really favours the man with means at the expense of the man
pt'i
without means /--At that time the town would not have heen run uiilc
ss Slime ii:
)roui,dit liipior in. hecau
i.se the .ludi;i' and the I )istrict Attornc'v we
f us
laliit of
coiiiint; to my plai
d without them it would he impossilile to run tli(> town. Th
\\
was the state of atlairs in (iruiidy Centre, (Irundy County, Iowa. The .ludi,'e and the
District Attorney were in the hahit of coniin>; to my pliiee to get drinks of whisky.
% AVr. /),: M,l.,„>l :
."U-")')!. What year were you in Arkansas? Tn lH77 and 1^!")^.
;{ I .■)").'». What was the law in force then .' It was a partial prohihitory law.
SlooG. Was there plenty of li<|uor obtainable { No, it was hanler to get then,
than under the suhse<|uent enactim-nt. In those days you could get liquor without a
doctors prescription. No liquor was allowed to be sold at that time, except it was of a
certain strength.
•Iames L. Stkkn.
64
H
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
view It III
lldS. .lOHN v. I'>.\IN, (if Wimii|M% .)iulj,'c of the Court nt' l^ueeii s IJemli of the
|'iu\ iiicc of Maiiitolia, on heing duly sworn, (icpost'd lus follows: —
Jii/ Judijf M<'I)oiutld :
:?1.">"»7. How \i.m\t, hiivc you rrsidcd in this city .' .Vliout twenty years.
.il'i.'iS. How lonj{ have you lieeii upon the Kencli f Nearly live years.
.'tl.').")!). Did you practice here before that time,' Yes.
;U.")()0. |)id you come here from Ontario? \'es.
lU.'ifil. I suppose the part of ( Mitario in which vou resided was under a license
law ; Yes.
;U"i»)'_'. Have you ever lived in a city where the iScott .\ct was in force/ -I have
never had any experience witli the Scott Act.
;U."i().'5. When vou came here \ suppose thei-e was a license law in force in this city {
Yes.
.'{l-")t)t. And, with amendments, that law has since continued in force.' -Yes.
.'H. ")(!."). \Ve have lieen told that there were two ciainties in the province in vvhicli
I lie Scott Act was voted on, the Counties of Ijisgar and Marijuette, but that the Act wa.s
never carried out and nothiii;; further was done. Have you any know!ed;je in re;,'ard
111 the matter?- I have no knowledge of it.
.'U.")()ti. Have you noticed since you came to the province any change in the social
ciistuiiis of the peojile in regard to the drinking of into.xicating litjuors as a beverage,
whether it has increased or decrea.sed ,' My own experience has been that there hay:
been a marked change ftir the better in the drinking habits f>f the people.
;n."iit)7. To what do you attribute that change ? 1 think it is in a gr<'at degree due
to an improvement in the moral sentiment of tlie people in regard to the abuse of intox-
icating li(|Uors.
.'Urit'iH. I sup]io.se the intluence of religion and of teiii|(erance societies has had an
cU'ect .'— S(jciety is in a very different stage here now to what it was in the early days of
the province,
."il-'if)!>, ])o you kiKnv whether anything is done in the public schools here in the way
iif temperance education I 1 do not know.
■'11570. Have you Iwen brought in contact with the working of tiie license law ,' -
Nil, not directly.
•'il-")7l. .\s a citizen, have \ou noticed whether it is well ob.S(;rve<l in Winnipeg;
take, for instance, the provision in regard to dosing on Sundays 'I have always uiuler-
>iiMi(l that it was (|uite ea.sy to get li(|uor on Sunday.
•■U"i7l'. Hy persons other than thost^ to vvlioiii the law permitted it I -Yes,
• il-"»7;{. Do you know anything about selling to minors ! I cannot speak of that. I
never heard there was such sale to an extent that it would be a public scandal.
.■)1.")71. We understand that the law now in this province, as in some other pro
\ luces, |i-i'mits the sale of intoxicating liiiiiors in the same place in which ttroceries are
sold. I )o you considei' that a beni'licial law '. Yes, on general principles I cunsider it sucii.
'Miu't. Have you ever formed an opinion as to the extent of the evil caused iiv
liiitel and restaurant bars respectively, as to which cau.ses the greater evil .' Would there
lie any diUerem-e as between the hotel bars or restaurant bars, and if one had to bt-
,ib(p|islied which, in your opinion, should be abolished .' I should say that if one had to
be wiped out, the saloon liar should go, for there seems to be less excu.si' for it than fur
the hotel bar.
■'U.")7(). Have you coiisidtu'ed the subject of high license? — Not specially, but I mav
^ay that I am decitledly in favour of high license, if there is to be a license at all. I also
iielieve in the limitation of the number of lii'enses and in the strict regulation of the
places licensed.
.■tiri77. What about the inspection of li(|Uors : has your attention been called to
that (|uestion / 1 i-efer to the prevention of adulteration. Yes, I think that should be
I'lirt of a system of high license.
•■U">7H. Have you noticed whether the trattic, in this community, has affected the
business relations of the people injuriously ? — No ; T cannot say J have ever noticed th
G5
21 5**
T^
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
I i
'-■
it lilts nil i II j II I'll Ills I'tl'i-i't. I lii'lit'vr ti'iiin my i)\n ii i'\|M'rifii<'i' t Imt t lie u Imli- uf tlic I'ru-
viiicr lit' .Maiiitiilia will riiiii|iai'i- very tavminilily as rc;;ariis sulnicty with aiiv oiIht |iart
of till- I toiiiiiiiiiii, or any oilier I'liiiiiiiiiiiity I know of in Aiiifiit'a.
.■U">7!t. NN'oiilil that ri-iiiai'k a|>|ily to t|it> |irovinci> it.s a whole,' ^■e^. and it woiilii
N|ieeially 'll'l'ly to the lllial tli'^llirts, iimie mi than to the I'ilies.
.■(|."i^". The hi'»i witness iik'iiI ioiieil that many faiiiiei's roiiie in, anil altlioii;r|i they
<'oine from pjaies w he/e lii|iior w.is not snlil in some iiisianees, they were perfeetly tein-
|iei'ate w hen in I he eit \ . llaM' you noliied anion;; the farming' class eoinin;; to town
that solirii'tt to which refereiiee Iiiin Im'imi made ^ I have noticed it is very fare that
Voii see ,'i fanner iin<
lerth
e inllneiiee of iiijiior
.'Uo'^i. hoyiMikiiow whelher illicit seliiiii.' |ire\aiis to any extent in t liis lit v or
)iro\ince.' I ha\i' no o|i|)ortunity of know inij;. lait I ha\e reason to lielie\ e that it does.
•'H ■">'"^'J. Ila\e you considi'i-eil the <|uestioti of the treatment of the |ier.sisteiit drunk-
ard .' ^'oll lia\e noticed no doiilit that many men keep ^oin<; from saloon to Police Court
and then to jail and hack airain. I >o yon think that such peojile should lie shut np for
n time and |iro>ierly treated ' I have often considered that sooner or later that is a pro-
lilein which soi'iety would have to deal with. My own impression is, that a man who
proves himself to he an haliitiial drunkard and a nuisance to society, should, for his own
protection, he shut up. It seems tritlinu with the matter to send such a man to jail for
a few weeks.
;il"iS;{. T!n' usual term is
!l dii
the Kasterii I'roxim
I do not know, for
tl
lese cases do not comt
lief.
."il'iSJ. Ha\e you considered the i|uestioii of the encoura^einent of the use of li;ilit
wines and ales with the \ iew of doin;; away with the use of the heavier distilU'd lii|Uors .'
I have lived for some years, indeed I ha\e spent a ;;ood portion of time in Kranee,
Italy and (iermany. I was very much struck with the sohriety of the people, and with
the contrast lictween most of the people (here and the people of .\merica. ft was \ ery
'Id
seldom indeei
<|umitities
I that
>f li^fht
yi III
wines aiK
would see ;i man under the iiilti
ence ot lli|Uor, ail
d vet
enormous
I lieers are constant Iv drank, the men with their familie:
seeminy to en joy themselves rationally and intellii.'ent ly w ithoiit any cif the demorali/.in;;
and de^r.-idini,' ell'ecis yon see in ;;atherini;s of the same kind on this side of the ocean.
;( I "iNo. \N'e have heen told that lii;lit wines are served as part of the ordinary
meals? Wine icdly takes the place of water: it is .served at meals and is drank l>y
everylHitly. in fai-t it takes the place alisolutely of water.
."liriSti. Have you considered at all the i|iiestioii of ]irohiliil ion ? I cannot say that
I luiye.
|)urin^
tl
iM(. Have you ever heen III a country where prohiliit ion was in torct
hiliiti
le siiliimer
I h
lave heen in
M.
:n."iSH. What part? Near Port lan.l.
.'?l"iHi>. Have voii heen al <M < )rehard llcach ? I have heen there, liut have not
.staved there.
.■)|-">'.'i>. We have heard a i,'iHid de.il ahout the operation of the Maine Ijiw in that
State. What was your expeiience ' In tlieholcl I was al, I saw liipior was ohtainalile
tptite easily.
."il")''!. Have VOII considered vvheiher il would lie practirahle to carry out a L;enei-al
prohiliitory l.-iw, if such a law was pa.ssed in this country f I think it would he piai-ti-
law I
if the most of the people were in favour of the law, not merely in favour of tli
leiiii' li.'issei
• I hut
incerelv III earnest in vv ishini' it to he eiitorcei
'.'L'. Then vou think you must yet the sense of tin
iiniininit v in it s fav our in
rder to make the law a success ! Yes.
:> I •">'.•■■!. The i|uestion has heen put ill this way: The .Maritime Provinces mij;lit lie
very stronv'ly in favour nf such a law. while other port ions of the l^oniinion mi;;lit he
opposed toil. Hoyoii think lh;it Parliamt lit should he irovcriied liy the senlimenl of a
particular locality? I think II should he j.'ui(led liy the general opinion of the
<-ouiitry.
.">l-">i)l. Have you considered the <|uestioii of granting com])etisatioii to lirewers and
distillers in the event of the eiiaotiii(;nt of a geiioiai pruliihition law ,' Not at all.
Hon. John F. Hain.
66
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No 21.)
A. 1894
;; I ."I'.Cf. Wliiii is (lie ciVci-i uii I
ic iiKii'iil Ni'iiM' (if till' I'liiiiniiiiiit V lit' |il'i<'iiiu II law i>ii
till' statiitc-liiMik lli.'il is llui.'r.'iiit ly .iinl |irt'sisti'iitl\ \ inhitrtl ami imi I'lifnrri'il .' Il ilo
panels a i,'iiii(l ilral uii tin- iialuii' uf' llir law. 'I'lii'i'i- arc siiiiii' laws, tin' iiiin-nliscrvaiirc
lit «liirli vMMilil liiiM' nil I'lli'ci wliat<'\ I'l' nil till- I'lniiiiiunil V. Take, Iiuwi'n i-i', siirli a law
a^ t III' |ii'<iliiliilii>ii law: it' tlii' law was imt I'lituni'il, I lirlii'M' il wiuilil lii' tlinrutijjiily
ili'iiiiiiali/iiii,' to till- t'oiiiiniiiiil \ .
il'i'.Mi, TIli'lM' an-, lit' riiillsr, Li
th
tws III rcijar.l to iiiiiiiii'i|ial ri'jiiilal mil. Ihi- ulisn-v aiin
it wliiili has nil i-lln't nni- way nr tin- uiIht mi tlii' fniiiiiiunil v. siicli a law tiir rxaiiipli
.!■- liMMii;.' viiiir Jiiiisi' lint It'll nil till' stri'i't
I's. Ml ri
■•;aril t-
I liialtrl's lit nil sjii'i'ial 111'
i'i'>t III' ciiiii'i'in anil in iryanl to wliicli nn spi-cial |irini-i|ilr or i;iral piiltlir inti'i'i'st>
II
,ll'' IIIVII
lv.'.l.
I
.'il ."I'.t'. llaM' yiiu any sii^iycstiuiis tu nlliT tn tlir ('iiniiiiissinn t'niiii ymii' cxprficn
i.'c'111'ially III' as a I'iti/i'ii, nr any anii'iiiliiiriits tn ilii' pii'vcut li'^rislal inn tn nlli'i' ,' Nn.
liiiM' always t'i'll that llici-c arr a iiii'at many iiinic plai-i's liri'iisril t'nr llir salt- nt' lii|iinr
I liMii tlii'ii' is any nt'fi'ssity for. and my cxpi'iifnii' has lici-n tliat what ynii may call
ill" Inwi'i' I'lass lit' salniins ai'c the jilacfs that (In tin- must harm in the cnnmumity. 'I'licy
Il i\i' iinthiiiLr tn liisc ciihcr a.s i'c;;arils I'liaractt'i- ni- rcpiitatinii, anil nt" cnui'sc thcff is less
nliji'ir in rai'i-yin;.' (lilt tin- law. My fxpi-rii'in'i' as a ju(l;;i' is, that tlirsc plai-rs arc the
places nt' all ntlii'i's wlii'ic lii|iini' i.s sniil that do most liarm.
i"iits. Ilii villi 'ia\c tn dn with crimes lit' the hiu'licf sort
wc have tn try
niri'.HI. Have V
oil oliservcil wlictiier any |iropnrtinii nt' the ci'iiiiiiial cases that c ime
lictni't' vmi a
re atlrihutalile tn the drink lialtii and the drink trade J -Kver since I have
'CM nil the Iti'iicii I lia\e lieeii struck with the tact that so few *\i the cases that come
•tnrc iiic are aUrihutaliie directly or imiirei'tly to the iiseiif lii|Uor. I had always been
•iistniiicd to hear and IicHi'M' that drink w,is responsild" for a Ncry lar^e prnpnrtinn of
I'liiiic. lint that ccrtainlv has not liecn iiiv experience nn the ISencli in .Manitnli,
ar a.s
the i'\
H'iOO. Uespoiisihlc lint even indirectly.' in the larue inajorily if cases so f
ideiicc shows, tile crime is not attrihutalile to drink, diicctlv or indirectly. I cat
iiiilv speak of what appears in the e\idciice liefore me.
.'iltiOI. Have you iii.iny cases of scrintis crime in .Manitolia
rciiiarkaiplv fid' from serimis crime.
W
e liaxe lii'cn
.■(hiil'J. |)n villi see anv 'nnnection lietweeii that small record of crime in .Manitol
la
and the soliriety of the people, which ynii say, is very marked .' I think that, lintli the
siiliriety and the ahseiice of ci'ime arc attriliiitahlc to the .same cause, to the i;eneral hi;;li
iliar.ictcr of the people of tlic I'roxini'e. They appear to lie related, as cause and etl'ect,
.iml llicy arc Imt h i'\ idcnt
.'ihin.'i. 'I'lic i|iicsiinn I desire tn ask is, in ell'ect, this : Whether the sniiriety is (he
i,iii-c of the diminished serious crime in the I'rovince? i think it is very likely that if
I licrc ui
re more (h'unkai'ds in the I'mvincc tlicrc umild I
H' iiiori' crime
ihiOl You have expressed ymir-clf as fa\n iralilc tn a still hiirlicr license system,
nil liicalcr restrictions and a diminill inn in the iiuinher nt places lice
d? Y(
iltil)"). W'litild ynii prefer a proliiliit ion law to even a liii.'li license system, if it
iiiiilil lie well entnrcei
W I
• hidijes have to administer llie law a^ ilnv liiid il.
wiiiild prefer mil in expi'ess my own indiviiliial opinini
IIC.OC). Tl
len villi wnllii
1 rati
ler lint cxpre
an npininli nil that pnint .' \
.'l|ii'i7. W'niild you express all npininli as to w heilier if wc had a prnhiliitinn law,
"I'll ciifniced, then; Wniild lie lieiiclicial results nlitaincd '. 'riiere wiiiild lie lienelils in
^iiMic w.iys, and ill niliers 1 think there wmild lie the re\crse.
."■liiOS. What wnuld lie the injurious ert'eets ,'--My own impressinn is that it would
111' |M'ifi'ctlv impossihle to strictly enforce a proliihition law.
■ "illill'.l. I was assumini' that the law was well enforced: does that seem tn lie an
niipnssilile case in your nun
i; V
till). What would lie the dillicultiiv
lie prnhihitivi' provisions of the license law.
Tlr
same as are in the way ut' enforcinj,
;{Hill. Still they are enforced more or le.ss?— Yes.
21—5^*
67
;• I'J
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
SHilL'. The Mayor liiis told tlic (-'oininissiori that t'or flic lii^i two \v*'i>kH tin- law
hiis Ix'cn t'liirly wt'll cnt'orci'd at all events very iiiiieli lietter ent'orce<l than |)re\ ioiisly.
He stat«!(l, lio\ve\ei\ tliat he tli()ii<;lit the <'nt'orcenieiit (iepeiideil lar;;ely on the attention
j^iven to it hy tlie otlieials and others. Have you iiotieed that a ;riMid <leal depends as to
the enfot'<;eniPnt of the law upon the attention that the otKeials a|)poiiited tor the
purpoHt^ ifivc^ to the ent'iircenient ? -Naturally, hut the attention that the otiicials ^dve to
it depends very nnich on whether the coininunity insist that they shall ent'ont- the
law or not.
'.\\tt\'2ii. Fs that true of all laws ? —There are alway.s some [K-rsoiis who do not want
the enfoi'cenient of law, who se»<ni rather incline*] to violate law ; and there are other
clns.ses who never wish for the violation of law hut who wish to have it ohserved liecausc
it is the law, whether tliey are in .syni|)athy with it or not.
•'UOKi. l>o you tiiid the enforeeiuent of the law ;renci'ally depends on pid>lic senti
iiient asserting; itself and insistin<; on its enforcement l»y the otiicials who have the
nuitter in char<;e .' -What kind of laws do you mean do you mean ciimiiuil law .'
.'UllH. Laws a;,'ainst misdeinean(uirs, and oH'ences of various kinds/ Yes. It
depends inunediately on the attention j^iveii to it l>y otiicials appointed to enforce it.
Hut with resj)ect to law a^iinst crime: If there were any violation on the part of the
connnuuity and the proper ofKcials were not enforcin;; the law they would 1m' com|K'lled
to do .so. Public sentiment would assert it.self, and insist on the carryinj^ out of the law.
.■Ufil"). Is there not la.xity in the enforcement of some laws for a |>eriod, and floes
not the public conscience awaken aiul see that the laws are better en£orce<l f — I sup|Mi.se
so.
•■<H11<>. You have spoken about the classes of licensed places, and I think yon
stated that tlif> lower cliiss did the most harm, Ix'cause they were kept by irresjionsible
people. Ha\e you over <;iven any thouj^ht to this jtoint : Take tln> hotel bar or the so
called respectable saloon aiul take a saliMin 7 .\ !t kept by a nob<Kly : in which of these
places do you think the jx'ople of the Itest class of the community and the youn;; men
are likely to contract the drink habit? — [ suppose they are more likely to contract it in
the hotel.
liltilT. Ha\(' Vol! noticed whether the jreneration that is ^rowiuji; u|) begin in the
better class of place anil "graduate down to the others or whether they bej;in low down
and j;raduate up ; If a youn;,' man bec<»nu's a slave to the habit and a drunkaril, he
.sinks.
."UGliS. Would it then appear that the hi<,'lier class of place, which has a (le;;ree of
respectability and character alM)ut it. anil which is re;{ar(led as reputable, and a place
wlieie a man may visit without lo.ss of .self resjiect. is after all moie ilanjierous than the
place without character, more daiijfeious to the best people of the conuniinity and those
in whom the hope of the connnunity rests ? If a man wants a drink and cannot f;et it
in a respectable place, he will <;o to a disreputable one.
.'{Hill). Hut the man with the diink habit stronjjly upon him will ^o to the disre
putable jilace, 1 suppose? -No, I should think not, if he has a choice.
."tldliO. You spoke about living; in Ki-ance : how many yejirs a<;o was that ? — I lived
there three or foui' winters seven Oi' ei<,'ht years nj;o.
.'UdL'l. And when were you in (Jermany and Italy? Seven or eiffht years a^'o.
:iir):.^L'. Have you noticed from the newsjiapers that within the last few years theiv
has been a larjje increa.se in the alcoholic habit in (iermany ! — 1 have not seen that state
ment in rcuard to <!ermany, but I have in re;;aid to France, the statement that of liii.
years there had been nmcli more spirits drank than was formerly the case.
^M(i'2'2ii. That increase in the use of alcohol is attributed to damage to the vinesdon.
by the phylloxera? — Yes, and to jululteration and bad (juality of wines.
.nfi'i.'V Have you considered whether wine drinking is a dangerous habit, for the
rea.son that, in the ab.sence of wine, the people will of necessity re-sort to alcohol ami
stronger drinks ?r have never thought of that. The common wines that the people
drink in Hlurope are very light, containing very little alcohol, and are non-intoxicatiiiu.
.'51624. Tt would seem that fis the people cannot get wine as fonnerly, they mu>t
have some stimulant, and they resort to the stronger alcoholic drinks. Do you think thm
Hon. John F. Hain.
68
57 Victoria.
SeHHioiiiil Fupei*M (No. 21.)
A. 1894
lo nut wiiiii
!•(• ai'f ntlli'l-
red ln'ciiusi-
I think voii
irr('S|M>iisil»lf
iir III" tilt' f«'
llifll of thenr
f yoiiKji men
ontnu't it ill
the niii^lant liitliit <ii wiiii- tliiiikiiiy ircat'-H sufli » stmnx ilfsiif li>r si iiiiuluiils that llu'\
;u'i- ('•iiii|i<-lli><l III iisi- iIk'Iii! Willi I'l-ifanl to lu'i-iiiaiiy, witliiii ilic la>>i srar tii' Iwn a
■-lalcliiiiit iia> Ihtii iii.uif I'l iIk- cllfcl llial lliiTi- lias livt-ii a liii>{f iiM-rcasi- in (In- Use tit"
ilriilml, anti « lliiili a year nr -u I lii> I in niaii l'',iii|>i'iiir lias |ii'ii|iiisr<| sirici i<';;iilalliiiis
uiili n's|MM't III il. Witulil it si-fiii III Villi llial llir iji'iifi'ai ii-<i- nf \n-fV llirif liail llii')iui{li
I III' riiiii'si* lit' ail iId'ho yuiii-M |iriNluciMl a riiiKJiiiiiii uf ciiiittitutiiMi in tlit< |M'itpli> that ilc
iii.uiiii'il till- iisi- lit' siriiiiK lii|Uiii's ' I ran i-xiutss im i>|>iniiiti mi that |Hiiiit.
.'l|tij"i. ilavf Mill any kniiwlnlyr lit' I lir Nm I li wist ' Y«'s. I liayi- in;iili' \ isitN
r lii'i'i- nil iiiisjni'ss am
i ml.
Hiil'ii. IMil ymi iil'siTM- ilii- wmkinu ut' |ii'iiliiliitiiiii iIii'It .' 'I'u smnr i-xii-ni.
''Ui>27. I)i<l vmi think il a sii
I'l'l ss III' ulll*TW|HI>
I thi>ii);lil il \yas mts iimu'Ii
.1 lii'i'Wisf,
.Illl'-'H. I>ii| \iiii yisil it ijuriiiis' last yi-ar f Nn. I liaM- ih-mt I ii I lirii' sjni'i- |>><."i.
.'{HiL".i. I >iii ymi ^ivi* siiiiii' s| iiily III t lir iiiirsi imi whrihri llii' |ii'i'niil sNsiriii. as ii
{>ii'\ aiii'vl at lliat iii'iiml, ii-ally ilrsi myi-il I lir I'lli-i'ls nf |ii'iiliiliil inn .' Tin- |ii'i'iiiil syslfin
u;i- i'\ iili'iitly uhiiKcd. and undrr lln- ii|irraliiin nt' thai |i»'niiil ssstcm. Iii|um' .sfi-nifd In
111' nlilainalih' In a \ciy nrvn\ I'xii'iil. Il struck iiir thai I had nev ■•r si'fii lln- iisr nt'
lilllnl's sn U
tti'ijy di'iiim'.'di/iiii; as it was in ihfNnrth wi-sl al llial liiiii'.
."tlli'tll. llaM' ymi ln'i'li iIhTc silirc llir ailn|ilinri nt' llii- liri'lisi- syslfin .' Nn.
■lili'U. Sprakiii^' nt' llaK, did ymi imlii'i' snilii'iriitly In In' alilf In i'X|ir«'.ss an
lilt
I
saw
t'lir It
n|>iiiiiiii, hiiw Italy t'nni|iarfd as I'l-uartls tlrunkt'iini'ss with Manilnlia f Nn. I was i
Ijvjin; sn lnii;i ill Italy as in l-'raiiff, Iml sn t'ai' as I ran ii'iifiidn'r in
ill niiki'iini-.ss ihfi'f than I lia\t' st'fn liuriii^ tiit' saiiif liiiit- in Manilnlh
//-/ ./>i</,,. M,l),,,„il.l :
■"i|<i''l-. I undi'i'stanil that ymi haM'iinl st iidiitl tin- t|iif>timi astnwhal iiiiy liavf
aiisi'd thf rci't-nl i'liaii;.'r in France and (ifi'iiiany as rc^'aitls the Wst- nt' alcdhnl. Has
ml wine ilrinkiii;; ;L;nnt' mi t'nr cciiliirics aiiimi;; ihc |i<>ii)ilt> nt' liutsc t'niintrifs .' Vcs.
.1 1 1'l.').'!. Wine liriiikiiijL; and liccr driiikin<.' Iiaxt- Imm'ii. I iintlfi'stanil, pari nt' the
I.' Il
rii^tmiis nt the |ifn|i|i' ti'nin tunc iiniiiciiim'ia
Tlii'V tiriiik wine and liit'r as we ilrink lea and water.
Is pari I't llieir cM-ry <
lav Ii
.'ilti'U. 'riicret'mi', it' they really cmiie tn use alcnhnl, as has lieen indiratt'd. ymi
iiiii-t liink tnsmiie Dthef cause than that nt' mere use .' Thai ncciirred In iii'-. It' the iis.i
liMil that eU'ect, I tin lint .see why it slimdd impress itself just iinw .
."> hi-'t'"!. The phyllnxera, I suppnse, has lieeli nne cause anil III her causes have lieen
'.'iM'ii til the Cmnmissimi .' Nn dmilil the dimiiiishiMl supply has leil In ihe manufiiciiire
lit' iiad wines.
'ears a<;<i.
years their
II that stall
that nt' lull
he vines dune
lahit, for tli>'
alcnhol anil
t the ptHijiic
intoxicatiim.
y, they must
i>u think that
llnN. Wild JAM D.WIKS .\l!l>.\(ill, lit Wiiiliipi'u,.liulj{ent the Kasleril .1 Utiicial
histrict lit' Manitoba, mi heing duly swnrii. dcpnscil as t'nilnws: —
Hi/ .liiiliif Mrliiimilil :
.'tlti.'it). Ilnw Innji have viiu residetl in Wiiinipci; ? <)\ei' ten years,
^illi;!". How Inn;; have ymi iieen .1 III Iv'c nt' ymir .1 iidicial I list lici .' Iiet uccn t'i;;lit
and nine years.
.'!|<i.'<H. Ynu came, I iielie\ e. t'rnin the Cmintynt' Simcne, < )ntariii, nri;;inally / ~
Vcs.
•■llfi.'lK. For some time, I think, ymi wfre memlier nt' the Le^rislaturc nt' * )ntarin for
Niirtli Siincoe .' Yes.
■tl()|ll. I siip|)iisi> in your tlay there was nn law tlealin^ with the liipior tpiestimi in
ymir ilistrict other than the license law ; or had the Scntt Act Im'.-ii carrietl in Simcoe
lict'ore you left? It was carrietl after I left, hut I have lieen there sevi-ral times during
ilic years since, foi' a mniitli or two jit a lime.
•'Mllll. Dill you .see anything; of the wnrkiiig of the Act in Simcoe while ynu wt-re
Ili,.|'f .'— Ye.s.
69
Liquor Traffic — >r{initoba.
ETaR!
I. , il 2
ithil-. \\i>\\ tlill it Mlrt-i-fll .' It dill not MK'Ci'fll tit llil.
■'({•ijlt. hill it lint liavf till- i-lli-ct tliiit till- |HMi|ilt' iiiti-nili'd it tn iii'('iiin|ilisli .' It
liail I lie cH'cil (it' I'l'iliiciiii; til" t'luiiitii's tor ;;i'ttiii^ iiiiuor (iiiiiiiij; ii rfitJiin f\n!*s nt' llir
|iru|ili', llir liiNM'i' rliisst'H ami tlinsr ot wliiiiii till' Imli'l ki'i'](t^ls iiiiil salniiii ki'i'|M'is wrir
atViiiil ; iiiit it inni'a.Hcil tlir ilrinkiiii,' lialiit uiiiniii; tin' l>i'tli-i' rliiss, fui' it iiiiliiri'd ihoiii
III kri'p kf^'s iif lii|lliil'. It In! Ill iniH'i' liiiliii' riilisiilll)it inll. I did lint tt'V to ('(ilillllit any
lil'carli lit' till' !a\\, lull I am |iri't'iM lly vm'II awali- lliat I rmilil liUM- <riit all the drink I
waiitnl in any Imti'l m plari' in llii> tnwii or in any |>ai'l of llir cniinty wlirri' I was.
'Till' liri'wrrii's all around wi'ir in t'lill lila.sl during tlir tiiiii-. Tlii' Art was tinally voti'd
diiwn at'irr lln'ci- yfars' i'X|iriii'nrr.
.'tllill. Takin;{ your rx|ii'rii'nc«' in Maiiitolia, and in N\'inni|ii'L,' |iartirularly, do you
tiiid till' |ii'ii|ili> ai'i> tt'iii|irrati' and siiImm' in tlii-ir lialiits? I tliiiik fairly so.
.'tltil'i. ho yoii t'md siiici' you rami- lii'ir lliat tlii-rc lias I I'cii a ;,'ro\vtli of llir Inii
jicranri- si'iiliiiiiMil and a cliaii;;!' in tin' social ruslinns of llii- |ii'(i|»li' ? I think tlial
clian^ir lias lii-t'ii laryi'ly i;oiii;; on lii-ri'. 'i'lii' usi- of « ini's; and lii|iiiiis, foi- instain'i' at
lalilr. is li'ss than fonni'rly, and I think tlicii' is |irolialily Irss drinkin^r ^jt'iii'i'ally.
.'Ihilti. I sii|i|iiisi' yiiii lind ill < )!itario a ;;i'i'at clianj^i- in that I't'spfct fnnii your
i-arlii'st rrcolli'rt ions ii|i to tin- tinii' you li'fl it ? -Yes.
•'lllil". That thi'ii' is niiii'h Irss lii|iior usi-d at tlir social talilf'f -Yrs, tlii'i'i' is M'l'y
little iisi'd.
.'Utilf''. To what do you attriliuti' that <'haii;<<' ,' - To the j,'radiially incrcusin;; sciili
ini'iit in favour of ti'miicrance.
."UCil'.*. Has that result lit'i-n iirmluci'd liy ri'li;;iiius and moral iiillufnci's? Yes. I
find that a ;;ii'at many |n'o|)lc arc now alistaincrs.
.■iHirid. ilaxc you License Commissioni'rs in Manitoha ? -Nn. 1 was a [..icense
Commissioner diiriiij; the time the iKiminion Act, the Mc( irthy Act, was in force.
.'IHl'il. Then your are an ex orticio ('uminissiiiiifr ? - Yes.
.'{ICiaL'. Mow- did that Act work.' I found it an iin|irovement on any Act known
liefore or since.
.■Jhi-")."!. Are you aci|Maiiite<l otiicially with the workini; of the provincial license
law's — Not iilVicially. 'i'he only clause in the provincial Act f specially reiiiemlier is
tiuit which empowers the County . I uili;c on certain evidence to order licenses to he cancel-
led, Unfortunately the province did not i(o far enou^li.
.'t|(i">(. liaxe you any cases under i' I lia\i' never had a (;ase. The provision is
nut coniprelieiisi\e enoU),'h, it is xery lim. ed.
:U(!r)."i. Have you had any appeals to you in Chambers from coinictions hv .histices .'
— No.
.'Uli'iC). Some license laws. I heliexe, allow an appeal to a County Judife ?--T do not
reinemlier if such is tiie fact, I never had any case.
.'UdriT. Have you, as a citizen, noticed whetherihe law as to theclosini,' of licensed
liou.ses on Sunday is well oliserved .' My own impression is that the law has not hoen
well oliserved.
.'Udol^. You think that .'•aU^ f;oes on durin.i; Sunday to others than those whom the
law .says shall he entitled to liipiorf- I freipiently see people coming from church i.;o in-
to tlie.se places.
.'Ulio'.t. Have you considered the ijuestion of hij^h licen.ses? — I should lie in favour
of hif?li license.
31<i(jO. \Vitli a limitation of the numlier of licenses issued ? Yes. 1 would i;i\e
no licen.se at all to ordinary saliMnis, and I would coiiHne licen.ses to hotels and restau-
rant.s, and to the latter I would issue \eiy few.
IlKitil. If licenses were to he issued to only one da.ss, hotel or restaurant, which
would you prefer/ The hotel.
.SI ()()■_'. Would you, in connection with that system, favour also a system of rij;id
inspection of liiiuors sold, in order to see that they are jiure/ — Certainly that is a very
important matter.
.'{iriri,"?. fn re;;ard to your administration of the law — and I would first take the
criminal law lia\ e you found a lar<j;e |iroportion of cases traceable, directly or indirectly,
Hon. \Vili.i.\m I>aviks AiiO.xoii.
70
57 Victoria.
Sessionv^l Piii)ers (No. 21.)
A. I«:i4
iii|ili.sli ! It
I'la.Hs <)t" tlic
;<'r|M'rn wt-ir
idiifi'd thciii
<H)iiiinit iiiiv
the drink "l
llt'lf I WUH.
tiiuillv voted
Aft known
)rovi.sion IS
)y .histiccs ,'
? — I do not
mt, wliicli
to diiiMkrniifs> ', I liii\i' t'oinii'il the opinion lliiit diiinki-niif^N is often an element, lint
not the le.uliti;; one. Natufid (le|)riivily seeuis to me to Im- the leudin;; eau.-se, and
(ji'unkenness follows that.
orward as an exeiise i
1 es. It i.s |iut
The man savs he was
;!ltttil. l>o Villi tinil that drunkenin'ss is put fi
t'oiward eiiMtinually as an exeiise t'or the eommissjon of erinie.
drunk.
."U'Wi."!. Have you reason to lielievc that that statement is .ilways true.' No.
■'I|titi)i. Ill re<{ar(l to the administrutioti of tli<; civil law, how do ymi lind it ' l><i
vi'U Hnd there is niiich liti<{ati<in caused directly or indirectly l»y drink, and do you
think many disastj-rs in liusiness may lie traceil to the use of intoxicatini; iiipmi's as ,i
lii'M-ra).'!- .' It Would lie dillicult to L,'ive an o|iinioii on that point, liecause the ijuestion
ijiM'^ not arise in court, and I would not lie alile to kno\s the tacts unless I happeneil to
know them jireviously. Xo ipiestion of that sort would come up in .i ci\ il action.
)|tii)7. Have vou U similar law here to that in force in ()ntai'io
.'!|t')t'i.*<. Is it not tr
lie, ill
hat.
to di
1'^
th
delit^
unkenness, people are lrei|uently una
ith
diic tl
I think so in a limited nuuilier of cases, liiit c\tra\a<.Miice. had hahil.-
and iille haliits much more fi'ci|uently caii.se people to lie iinalile to pay their dclits, and
oliielimes the people W
lUld l>
ill'' to do .so if tI'MO hahits would allow tliciii. I
think, as a "ieneral riHc. it is due to {|ishonc-.ty and iiidisp ■ 'ion to pay.
.■'iltiti'.t. I »o you think that is the I'cneral rule .' ^'es.
.■>l'i7l). You have known, of course, cases in which inen. owin;; to their diinkiiii;
haliits, could not olitaiii employment .' That must 1 the cruise, to a i- riain c.vtent.
iiiuch illicit selliier ill thiscitv.
lltiTI. Have ytiu reason to sup|Hise that tliei
that is, s.de l»y persons without ii license .' I lliink iheri' i coiiiparutively litthv
Ha\e you t'onsideivd the [mssihility of etu'ou< ' 'iiiu the use of lijii,
inipi I 'itMin as well as their ii
d 1>
anti encoiirayini' in every way
th
tl
Ills
away w i
th 11
le
if 1
use ot liea\ v luiuors
that woiilil lie iiiv ide.i of dcaliii
with the i|uestion. I may say that the same fact struck ni'- :is app*>ars to lia\e struck
.ludire Main. Huriiii; my residence of three or four mouths in France and Italy, I iic\er
saw a drunken man, ami I never saw any t .<tniyai,'aiit ii.se of liipior
iltiT.'S. Was wine much used '. It was al
wa\.'
'IN ed at t he tahle. and w
IS so very
•heap that e\eryliody could olitain his liottle of wine. I oliscrxed, however, diirini; the
T mil
I
there, that the
■51ti7l. Ha\«' you had any e.xper
people were very tcin|ierate and \ery alistcinioii
ii'iice in a
liliition count iv
I'll
only c.\|ieii
eiice I have had in a prohiliition country was in Maine, Imt that was a i;iHid many
years aijo. | travelled tlirou;;li a part of .Maine without kiiowiiiL; that |ii'ohiliit ion
in toice then
It
WJIS o
ID
II
\V1
Illy w hen somehody hap] icned to mention ii, I was aw are of the f.i
if ah
IV was that
it d
i:
I ;;ot evervthiiii,' I a.^kcd for. I asked for a ^'lass
e, pcrliaps, at dinner time or supper.
.'UliTti. Have you considered the i[Uestioii of prohiliition, as to whether it is advis-
alile to have .a LTcneral |irohiliitory law enacted liy the dominion Parliament, an .\ct
iliiliiti
da
th
le importation, manufacture and sjile of alcojioj for lies erau'c purposes in
inada .'-In my opinion, from all tiie expeiicn
I 1
ia\ r
had.
and
I h
l\ c
I'cii tor very
many years '.i-njlirit, a Magistrate, and hetwccn ten and lifteen years .Mayor of the tow n
where I liveil, a projier license Act is the best means to minimi/e the evil, which
e\ cry
ihIv admits to he ;in e\il, and that system should lie tried hefore wc resort to jirohilii-
lion.
I think the evils that
very ^'reat, and im
il
lud
would arise from, and that wmild follow, prohiliil ion. w<ii
e siiuiuulinu, illifi
lid
t distiliinLT. and a desire or teiiiutation on the
part of a lar;
lumlier of the coniiminitv to lireak the lav
.M
y ow n impresston aoout
the license law is that the whole ditliculty lies with politics. I think that is at the root
of the whole matter. The one approach made to the proper regulation and control of
the trallicand the disruption of politics from it was in the case of the Moiiiiiiion .\ct.
which was declared <///
I'll rii'i's.
Tl
le ad. .inistration of the la
d ill the hands of an independent autluirity, ai> authority which was
w was, to a liir;;e extent.
i;r iitfli'lii an*
I
aiiicly indo|K>ndent. That fact created in the minds -f the li(|Uor sellers the belief that
the law wiis j^oinj; to be enforced, and it was enforced. They respected the law, because
they knew they would be compelled to obey it. They respected it not only because they
were willinji; to do .so, but Vwcuuse they were afraid to do otlierw ise. The impression oii
71
1'
^Hti
i\^
Liquor Traffic — IVl^nitoba.
my niiiul is, tlmt it' a pi'<>|M'r lifunse hiw were fiuictod, with, {)t'rliii]is, a |ifnnissi\f.' Art
ill regard to ccrtaii: iinrlinMs of tlio law, sons to eiiubic tlie control to lie placed entirely
under on<' aiitliority tlu local autliority. including insj)ection such a law, without
interfering with revenue pui-poses, would niinimi/o the evil, anil reduce it to its very
lowest limit, and it would have a less injurious effect on the community at large and on
the morals of the commiiidty than total |)rohiliition.
.'WdT". In that o|iiiiion you have given expression to your view as a .Judge of this
province .' I have given my opinion fi'oni all I have seen.
;<l<i7H. Taking youi experience, do you helieve that it would he possible to enforce
a prohil)itory law in Canada at the present time ?--l have never l)eeii in any country or
state, except Maine, and passing through it simply, where a jirohiliitory law was in force.
\ can only imagine the dilllcully of enforcing such a law, and form an o])inion from what
I lia\e heard. Speaking of the ellects of the li'iw and the administration of the haw in
the Noithwest Teiiilories, I may .say that thei'e was not a .system of total prohiliition
in force there, because they ha^l the permit .system : but I could form some o])inion,
from comei'.sations [ have had with \erv many friends and intimate personal friends,
from time to timi', as to the moral efiect on the minds of the people of the system of
prohibition.
•">|l')79. Suppose such a law was enacted in Canada by the |)omijiion Parliament,
do you believe it would be ii;,'ht that remuneration should be made to th(» distillers and
brewei-s for their property that would l)e ruined by such an enactnuMit ?- -I certainly
tliink that is a very serious (piestion. Those men have been allowed to produce li([U<ji',
whether good or bad in its ellects, under the ])rotection of the l,i»v for a great many
yeai>. and I think myself that there should be .some remuneration granted them for the
loss of their jilant and their property, in the event of the enactment of a general j>ro-
hibitory law.
.■<l(iS(). What, in your opinion, is the effect on the popular conscience of ha\ ing a
law on the st'if ute-book, such iis a general prohibitory law, which is persistently aiul
tlagraiitly bi'oken '. It is v(>ry ditlicult for me to give an opinion in regard to a pro-
hibitory law, because 1 know nothing about such a law. Of courst>, I am satisfied that
the eH'ect on the minds of the |ieoi)le of having a law on the statute-book that is a de.ad
letter and is not respected, is demoralizing, f understand, of cour.se, that holds in
regard to any law, and especially a law of a sumptuary character. It is very diflictdt to
bring the mind of the community in accordance with a law of that kind, even when the
people .see the ill-efTects of their present cour.se ; and there is a feeling of this kind : such
a man should be restrained, but I should not, and any restraining law is an interference
with my lilierty. Of course, the oixlinary mind is aware of the j)rinciples of legislation
under which every man must give away a certain jutrtion of his liberty for the j)r(jtec-
tion of the rest ; l)ut a huge ])ortion of a couununity do not rea.son that way. With
respect to the vote taken in this province lately, T myself gave personally very little
attention to that vote, for this reason, that, I think, a large portion of those who voted
for prohibition, if they could see their way clear to having a proper license law properly
enforced and res|)(!cted, would be very easily convinced that that would be a better law
than prohibition, and woidd probably say that it would be better than prohibition ; but,
in the absence of a projierly enforced license law, they would go to the full extent of
trying to root out an evil, which, if you press it down in one place, will come up in
another, and in a diflerent form.
% /{rr. Dr. Mrh'orl:
.'U<iSl. You have spoken in regard to the observance of the Scott Act in an Ontario
town. I think you stated that it increased the amount of drinking done by a certain
class in their homes. Do you think that is more harmful than bar-room consumption of
liquor .' — When I said liomc^ diMiking prevailed, jierliaps T did not make myself entirely
understood. 1 noticed that a great many j)ei'sons kept a private supply in their otlices ;
I observed it on going into the offices of friends, of personal and political friends, and I
found that people, whom 1 never supposed would do anything of that kind, kept a little
supply of liipior on hand, with gla.s.ses. T noticed, tiMi, that, generally speaking, the
bottles were all labelled with a druggist's name.
lIo\. William D.wies Ahu.\(;i!.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
il()SL'. Would tliiit class lit' ilriiikinj; Im' hctttT nr wi
III my (i|iiiii>>M, it is iimrt' (It-inoriili/tiii^.
iUiS.H. Is tluTc finvtliiiii,' wrmi!,' c-umifctcd witli ullicc (Iriiikiii
tliaii Itiir rouiii driiik-
1 (1.
It ki
aiiviiiiiij; that can he niurc dfiimrali/'iiig than liar -nidiii driiikin;;, liiit wIh'ii a man m'ts
ill a su|)|ily <it" li(|Uur so that lie lias no troiililc to get it, and when he tiuys it in wliole-
^ilc faslii()n, I think that is (icmoi-alizinj,'. Thi' Jiiiiior is at hand, and ^licn his tVicnds
to do business, which very tVcciucntly ha|i|ii'iis, I have noticed the haliit in
coiiic in
lot iif otlices, e\-en in law otlice^. is to ha\e a ;;lass of liipioi- w
liiiuoi' W(
ith th
If th
re iilitained at an hotel, the drink iialiit would jirevail to a much less extent
than wlien the jieople had it on hand in their private rooms, as I liave noticed it. F
was particularly struck with this hahit, liecause I noticetl that a u;reat many p<'ople had
^iit into the way of taking a ilrink, who I thought were very temjierate and of regidar
laliits.
>l!)cSl. I •(• vou I liii
ik till
people wild had liipior in their rooms, if the Scott .\ct
had not been enforced, would have i-esoiled to bar-rooms / They might lia\e done so,
liiit not to the same extent.
.ilCiS."), It is often contended that a great deal »if the drinking is practically done
till- !.'ood-fellowship. one man will ask his friend to have a drink and his friend will in
turn do the hospitable, and lietore they are through tiiey wi
liaxe had i< lot of dri'jks.
[><i viiu think that system is as bad or worse than the system of drinking in otiic. s ? — I
^hiiiijd not lik<' to geniM-alize on the subject. I noticed that several persons whom T
knew were in the habit occasionally, like a great many otiier people, of going to the
iiarnf a hotel and getting a drink, professional men even, wen? in danger of becoming
ilrun
kards
Mil
1 t
lis tact w
as admitted bv tlieii' friends and
;hl
lours.
On
ill.
ow does not make a summer." That happened to be the case in my own town
ill regard to thn'e or four men who had always been temperate, am! these facts
indicate the demoralizing etiects that may result from having a private supply of
hand
111 an ottict
tVv
ildSO. speaking in a general way, do you think that men are likely to become
ilrinkers i
f the trade is del(> -ali/ed rather than if the facilities afVorded by the bar-i
for driiikini' are aflorded .' Xi
roinns
•■{l(iS7. You would not argue from the above that this would be the general result ?
No. I simjily mean to say that when you try by legislation to suppress a certain evil,
the ert'ect of suppress
that
evil III a certain direction iiiav result in its increase in
other (lirections.
•il()><8. That is the perversity cif human nature .'—Yes.
•'iHiSD. You spoke about the breweries being in I'ull force under the Scott .\ct. |)id
Mill regard that as a flefect of the Scott .\ct .' -It was only surprising to me that they
existed at all, and so far as I could learn they manufactured just as much during the
existence of the Scott Act as they did before or ha\e done since.
.■<1G!M>. Did the Scott Act prohibit the breweries f^-No.
■'UftOl. Then it could not l)e charged against the Scott Act that they were allowed
to carry on bu.siness ? No, but of course they had their products to sell.
•'iltiill!. I)id they sell it in the locality or elsewhere .' They sold it largely ihiough-
<iiii the country.
.•!lt)!t;{. Did they sell it in the country .' Yes.
•"ilt'iDt. You kiio.v that / —Yes, certainly.
•'ilC)!)"), You lia\ 1' spoken about the changes in the drinking habits of the people of
Manitoba and elsewlu
that tl
lere is mu
cli less drinkini' now than was fornierlv th
case, and I think you attributed the change imuiily to religious inliuences. Do you think
this trade as established, has helped to bring about these desiraiile changes, that the
licensed trade has helped the inliuences that have brought almut these changes f ^ f do
not think it has had anything to do with it. I do notipiite understand the i|uestion. I
iliiid< the license law has been, to a very great extent, a failure.
.■?U)0(). There has been a change in the drinking customs brought about by mora.
iiiil religious iiiHueiices, and I understand that you think the change is ii good one/ —
Yes, and if it could be further carried out, it would be very desirable.
73
fl
I-;.
i' 1 '
I':!;
Liquor Traffic — IVranitoba.
.Uli'.lT. TlioM- iiitluciict's you sjiy liavc l>i(»u;,'lit iihoiit tliat cliiinjrc. Mas tlic eflcit
of the licfiisc law (•i)iisi(lfi'al>ly licljx'd tlio.sc intlui'iici's to ai'c()iii|ilisli tins di'sirahlc
cliaiii.'(' .' I liai'dly tliiiik so. and I can hardly uivc a rcasuii t'or not tliinkini; so. T may
mention this as an incident. When I was a lad in li-cl.'ind sueh a thin^j; as men not
takinj; a certain number of f,dass(Ns of jiot whisky at dinner was unknown; every man
did it. Tt was part and parcel of the meal. I know from recent visits made to th-^
country since, and seeint,' the same class of people, this hahit has jiretty nearly <lis-
ap[K'ared.
.■{|t)i»''*'. l)oyou think that I'han^'e is an improxement .' ('ertainly. 'I'hose who
could not ati'ord to drink wine had their hot whisky, as a matter of hai)it. From time
to time I lia\e \isited the old counti'v, and found those people or their descendants have
/gradually drojipcd the haiiit, until it has nearly (lisai)peared altoi^etlier.
.'(111'.''.'. Vou regard that as a i^ood i-esult / — Certainly: I regard it as an iniprove-
nuMit.
."UTOO. Would you think it a i^ood tiiini; if the im|iroveinent went further, and
thei-(> was a u'reater aliandoiinient of the drink liahil .' I think any step in the direction
of the ahaiidonnicnt of the drink haliit is an iniiiro\cuient.
.'{1701. I>oyou favoui' the suppression of the trade as a means of contrihutinj;
towards that ;;ood result which you ilesire to see accoiujilished, and wliii-h we all desire.'
— I think a man who hfi.s the ^ood of the community at heart must desire any evil to
he mininu/e<l. If you cannot destroy it alto>;ether, miiiimi/.c it. That is my opinion, and
ii thoroui;h license system would do more than total prohiliition. ciHisiderinj,' the evils
tiiat woidd ari.se from any attemjit to totally prohil)it the trade.
3170J. You sjioke of the t'xils that would arise from the enactment of such a law,
and anionj; them you mentioned smuu.i^liii;;? -Yes, and illicit distillation and illicit
trartic.
.■$l7n;$. Are those evils that would arise, under prohibition, or eviU thai now arise
fi'om th(^ li(|Uor trathc .' -Of course, that is simjily a matter of opinion.
.'U7Ut. ^'ou have knowled;;e of the evils that arise from the trade, I suppose? —
The only information I can fi;ive on that point is simply tiiis ; I think it would be
better to try a license system rather than al)solute prohibition. Of course, if the license
system did not lia\'e a satisfactory result, then you mi<;ht apply a more crucial test.
.■?17()-"'). The license system has been in force a t'ood many ycai's, 1 believe. Have
you over known a license .system that has been o'oserved I -No ; I camiot say that I
liave ever known any license system that has been fibserved, because I have never
known a license system that tlie peojile wer(? satisfied with.
.■il7(Jl>. Has the license system re^ulateil the traiK' .' -< (f coui'se it has<lone so to a
certain extent, there is no doubt alM)ut it.
.■il707. Is the license law broken in certain ways on the Sabbath: do you know
whether the law isobser\ed in that regai'd by the licensees? I could not say in that re-
j;ard, because I have not had an opportunity of testiri"; it. The information I can ob-
tain, information obt'uned from the Police C'omnussioners, leads me to think that some
few licensees observe tln> law in that respect, but that a lar;L;e majority do not, I have no
doubt. The reason they do not oi)ser\e it is. that one man will endea\our to observe the
law for a time, but he will tind others takinj; a different direction and defyin;; the law,
and when one man is allowed to defy the law, others will follow, especially when they
lind it can be done with impuinty.
Ml 70S. Will you tell the Conmiission, i)i'ietly, what is your idea of a license system
that would meet the nei'ds of the country .' 1 do not think it is (piite fair toask me to
answer that <|uestion hei'c. It is a ([uestion that one woulil have to consider very
maturely to <;ive an opinion about it, not vin' vaf' but in writiuf,'. I myself hold the
o|)inioii that a license system should i)e framed that would larijely jiroduce thi' elVect
that the temperance ])eople are an.xious to produce, and \ery properly so. 1 believe that
if the efforts of the tem|)erance orjiaidzations were directed, in the tii'st instance, to a
license .system, to control the sale of li(|uoi', if their "uerifies were directed in that direc-
tion altojfether, they would j)robably be able to pi'oduce a much better residt than they
would do as total prohibitionists, l)ecause there is no doubt in my mind that the reason
Hon. Wilmam Daviks AuDACiu.
7+
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ihv til
not nl>servc(l is, tliiit it is iiiiulf lfii-;,'«'ly n political fM;,'iii('. tli.-it it lias
Iniiif liceii ii Mioiiis of meting out certiiiri put ronajite in connoction with politic
jiiiii.' ii>* that is the I'lisc, you cannot by any possihility <H't the law jiropcrly ohscrvctl
.'il7n!l. I siipiM
So
vour idea ot a license law wonlil he one that would iiave even
iiori' lestrietisc t'eatui'es
th
tl
If license law now existiii
I will i,'i\e an instance of
ihat
cfllls to liie just now.
I
was
a I
icense C'oinniissionei' under tl
I).
Act,
ami it liap|>eiH'd, thi-ouiih an o\ei'si<iht oi- want of knowled;;e on the part of those in
chaij:e of the niunici|ial institutions hei-e, that T w;is actually sole C'oinnussioner. Tliei'o
should li,i\ e lieen tliice ( 'onniiissioners, l)Ut thofc were only t wo a|ipointed, an<l in rej,'ai(l
to the s( lid. as tliei'c was some apparent irrei;ulafity aliout his cnniniission, I thoiiirht
it ad\ isalile t hat he should not vote, althoiii;h he sat with inc. The matter remained
ill that way until the law was chanj,'e(l. I noticed as soon as iipjilications for licenses
were called for, that I \va.s inundated with letters written by people who were supposed
to lie intluential in politics. In every case when a letter was handed to ine by a person
told nie that Mv. So and So. reiniested him to present it, I
\\ ho
reterence to a license
asked rr the letter
Wli
•n,-\er til
the letter in the waste papei' basket in the person's prese
le rejilv was in I he atlirinat i\ c
That
. I ii
was «
illiiei
lialel
hath
'I'l
V put
1
laiineiiei
everv time
'I'lie other letters I received I treated in the .same wa\. There is no nece
sity for entering; into a loni; explanation in i'e;;ard to this matter, but the ellect i)f
treatiiii,' letters in this way w,>s such that for the coiiiim; year the best class of men that
could be obtained in the community were secured as the holders <if licenses.
•'ilTKl. I )id they oliserve the provisions of the license law .' 'J'lie provisions of the
liciMise law were better observed (lin'in<; the continuance of that Act than tliev have
lieen ooserv
ed
snii-e
>171l. Were tliev strictiv observeil ! I cannot sav that.
I went about as a
detective to watch the parties. I may say that I was not only License Coiiimi^sionei'.
but ! was also I'olice Commissioner, and 4'oiise(piently I had an oppdrt unity of leariiiiii:
the inside workim; of the trade better than any one else could do.
.'51711' i think you have stated that prohibition in some way ]proiiiotes driiikiii!.'.
that men desire to f^et w hat is pro
hibiled
.'il7i:V Is it true that prohibited th
liiL's are desirei
(1 because they are jirohibitt
I think so, to a certain extent.
.'il7l 4. Is it consitlered a mistake to prohibit certain tliiii;,'s ' A uood deal depends
on what the thin;j;s are that are i>roliibited. ( )f course that is a very wicle (|uestion to
discuss. It inij:lit be said that our early |)ro<.'cnitor if he had not been told that he
oiiiiht not to eat an apple woulil not have thoujiht of doinj; so.
■'il 7 b"). How lontt is it since yon were in the State of .Maine ,' Twenty-live years.
.■U7lt'i. I suppose you do not know anythiiifi; with respei't to the operation of the
Main Law since ? I have received vai-ious reports in rej;ard to the Prohibitory Law in
.Ml
It Tl
lave no
IV some per.sons that the law is better
I h
present ktuiwledue in reyard to its operat
I have been told
tl
t th
lere now
tl
ion.
la'i it was foinierlv.
I
noticed ;it the time ot which I have sjioken. that there were very many means nt i,'ettiii
liipior that were of an extraordinarv character.
.'il717. l>o you think a prohibitory law, if well enf
torcrd. wunlil
■nelit
I d.
except of course as rcifaids medicinal |purp
I
1'
idllct i
ot
beiieiit results fioiii drinkiiiL:' bevond t«
1
■tl
mporarily satisfyini
not see what
II
nil now considerinj,' the ipiestioli in the aiislrait.
.'51
.Speakinj
■Ii
about
•rrinlii
man s appetite for drin
nipensation to lireweis aiiil c|i>tiileis^ who you
iiware are licensed from year to year on
ly,d
() y<iu
think that if a prohibitorv law were
lacted that Would interfere with their business, they would have a stronu'cr claim thai
my other man would have in consei|uence ot a chancre in the tai
ill'
111
modi
doini,' business .' — I think that the feelini; of the community at larye would be that
those men should be compensated for their plant.
■'U711). Have they not made fortuiu^s out of tli;'ir busines.s '. Some have and some
have not. I do not know enou'di of the trade to enter into the matter; besides, what is
to one man a fortunt; or at all events sulHcieiit, is to another ma
II a small cuiiipeiisation
•'M7'_'0. Considering;, however, this tpiestioii of conipensalion, I desire to ask you
whether if it were decided to compensate brewers and distillers, it woulil not be just to
7r»
! i
\ \i
i
Eifr
f
lii
m
I"
' im
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
coiisiflcr the |>ni|iriety of (•(iiniK'Usatin;' those who, hfiiif; patrons of lirtnvors iiiul dis-
tillers, ha\i' been impoverished thereby, ^^'oul(l it not be fail' and just to take u|)lH)tli
sides of the (|uestion ? — A brewer's estiblisiinient is a Hnaneial investment, but the
drinkin;; of beer is a voluntary matter.
.'$17l.'l. Siiould not eompensation apply in one case as well as in thi' other? -Have
not brewers entered into this l)usiness and invested money in plant, prepared to take
the lisk and conse(|Uence of their investment/ Should not, J repeat, the same i>rinciiile
of bu.sine.ss a)»ply to one case as to the other? — ^l should think so. That would seem to
me to be a matter to be arranjied on a rej^ular seale : I am not prepared to entei' into
that (piestion.
.■{172:.'. ! >o you re<fard a prohiliitory law as i-eally a suni]ituary law in accordance
with the proper nieanin<r of the term ? — To a certain extent I do.
.'U'L'.'i. Is it really so / — I can only .say that 1 think, to a.certain e.xtent, it is. It
controls the consumption or denies the consumption of certain articles which come within
the ordinai-y i'aiii,'e of foods. Porter is a \ery nece.ssary article for certain pui-poses and
it is beneticial, oi' at least it is found to be so from the experience of medical men.
31724. Asa fludtje, havinj; to deal with the criminal classes, have you found many
uuMubers of the criminal classes charj^etl with serious crime to l)e total abstainers? — I
cannot answer that en<|uiry, because I never put the (piestion as to whether a man is a
total abstainer or not. The fact of his havinj,' used intoxicatini; li(|uors will come up
incidentally, but the fact whether he is a tem[)erat(! man or total abstainer never comes
Up. I Would have to possess ])ei'sonal knowled<,'e in order to determine that matter.
.■U72">. Have "ou observed that any considerable propt)rtion of those broui^ht before
you cliarj;ed with crimes are either themselves drunkards or as.sociated with di'unkards,
or are caujfht about tirinkin;; places? I have no doubt that a total abstainer is less
likely to become a criniinal, or to be brou<;ht licfore the ci'iminal courts in connection
with any breach (jf the criminal law than a man addicted to drink. The ellect of drink
on a man ntentally is to dull his perception of rifflit and wrong.
Jii/ Jndgp McDonald :
.'$1720. Would you apply that remark to every class of cases ? We read in the
newspapers that a larj^e projMHtion of tho.^e parties in the Unite<l States at the present
day who connnit forgeries on banks and similar crimes are uie.Ti who lead irreproachable,
moral lives? A large number of them do.
31727. Tak(^ connnercial crimes, such as forgery and einbezzlemerit : are they com-
mitted by drunkards? - I do not think so.
.'U72M. Then it is a matter of class of crime? — Ye.s, it applies to petty larceny and
assault, and everything of that sort.
31729. You have suggested that you think it would be wi.se if the temperance
people would turn their thoughts and their actions towards .securing a bettei' licen.se
law, and having it more thoroughly enfi>rced. Have you considered the subject from
this jMjint of view : that a great many temj)erance people look upon a license law as a sin,
and would say that they could not consistently adopt that course? We have had such
witne.s.ses before this Conunission.- I cannot deal with a man like that.
31730. You would not consider that cpiestion from the point of view that licensing
itself is wrong? You have not perhaps considered it from that point of view?-~Xo.
.'51731. You have formed the opinion that you think people who desire to jiromote
temperance should use a license law (tr other means of bi'inging about that result .' — 1
can understand a man of I'eligious tendencies holding the extreme view ; at the same
time he would .iri-ive at the conclusion on proper groumls. Hut it is impossible to legislate
for a class of people of that description. I should like to see the possibility of doing so,
but I cannot.
Hon. William Davies Ardacjii.
76
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(JKOKCiKTrUNKH oHTON, M.D.
us t'olltiv s :-
ti W'imiipc;;, on Im-jmi; duly swnrii, di'imscd
Jii/ Jiidi/e .UrOoiiiifif :
'^\7'^-. Do you hold ;iiiy ottiriiil pusitioii '. Yes ; 1 am Mcdiral Iii.s|tet'tor of riidians
t'of tilt* Provincti ot' Manitoba.
.'UT^iii. Do you hold any oHii-ial position in connection with the Canadian Paritie"
Haihvay .' Not at present ; I have done so.
;{I7.'U. Tliroii;;h what district do you travel in (ii.sehai'j^inti your duties f I ti'avel
tlii'ou;,'li diH'erent parts of tiie province where the Indian r'eserves are in the district of
l^ake Manitoba, liake \Vinnip(% l.iake Winiupe;;(M»sis. uj) the Saskatchewan, and as far
as CunibcM'laiul House.
.'UT.'^'). How Ion;; have you held your present position ;' Four years.
;317-<t>. How lonji have you resideil in Manitoiia .' I have resided liere since ISS.'i.
I visited the country two years before that time.
.■{17.'$7. Is any part of the district, of which you have spoken, in the North-west
Teri'it iries ? Yes; a portion is in the North-west Teri'itories.
lM7."?S. In which of the divisions '. It will be in Saskatchewan.
■J17.'5!l. Do you t;o up to Prince Albei't .' Not so far as that, not further than
C'undierland House.
S1740. Will you kindly state your opinion, formed from your experience, of tlit^
working of the license law at present in force in this province ? I think, upon the whole,
it works very f.iirly.
.'51 7 U. Are thei'e any aniendiiients wiiicii su<{gest themselves to you from what you
have seen of the o])eration of the Act '! Not ]iarticulfirly. I think the law, if thoroughly
carried out, is a very good law, as a licen.se law.
•'U742. So far as your ob.servation has gone, lias it been pretty well obsei'ved .' I
think it has been on the wiiole, considering the great ditliculty theic is in carrying out
such a law.
.'$174.*?. ^^'ill you be good enough to state to the Connnission what has been yom-
observiition of the working t)f the law in the North-west Territories/ In the North-
west Territ<)ries the law that has been in force was, of course, a permit .system. That,
1 do not think worked well. 1 know as a fact, from ex])erience I have had in the
North-west, especially flui'ing the time that I was Medical SuperinteiKJent of construc-
tion, during the building of the Canadian Pacilic Uailway, that it was continuously
infi'ingc<i. and I ha\e had occasion to go up through the Territories a good deal since,
and I have found large ((uantities of spirits of a \ery inferioi' character, shipped in there
and largely used.
.■}1744. Do yuu refer to the cctuntry north of the line of the ('anadian Pacific Hail-
way '. South of <.^u'Aj)pelle and even north.
;U74">. Can you, as a medical man, express an opinion as to what articles were
used in the decoction and ailultei'ation of these lii|Uors .' I cantiot. I believe that
su!]>huric acid was used in ..mie instances.
'74l>. Is that the same as bluestone f ^'es. It is stated that sulphuric acid was
Used in small <|uanlities.
•'U747. Was tobacco also used! Yes: I have rea.son to U'lievc so. I have not
made an examination of liipiors of that kind, but 1 heai- that such was the case.
.■n74S. Have you been there since the license law went into force ? No.
■■U74!t. Have you studied the question of |)rohibition f To some extent. Formcrlv,
as a niemlier of the House of Counnons, I gave, some attention to I he subject, when it
was under discussion.
•"51700. 1 understand tha.t you were for some years a member of the House of
Counnons? Koi- fouiteen years. I paid attention to the (piestion at that timi'.
■■517''')1. l'^•om your knowlerlgeof this country as a resident here, and also from vour
knowledge as one who has studied the i|uestion, do you think that a genei'al prohibitory
law, prohibiting the importation, manufacture and sale of li(|uors as a beverage in tliis
country, can be carried out? I do riot think it can l)e carried out ettectually.
77
:l 11
I ll
■ ^
I!"
'■
*li-
ill
i f:!l
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
:!17."
If
lilW
II Id
well- t'liiictcd, would you t'iivour tlic ^'raiitiii;,' of I'oiiipcnsatioii
til*
to dislillfi's and l)rf'\vcr.s for tin- loss of tlieir nuit-liiiuM'v iiiid plant / 1 ilccidcdiy svould,
as I think it would ix' Motliin<{ l)Ut just.
.■{17"».'?. As a j>i-ofcssinnal man of \in\>i cxixTienrc, can you say wlictlifi- niuoli of tlic
sickness voii liaxc had to treat has been caused hy indulgence in aU'oholic di'ink '. Not a
larue amount. .\ conn>ai'ativel
caliu!,' lii|Uors
paratively few.
ini|>
V small amount is traceai)ie dii'ectK to the use of into.xi-
•om-
The cases that come undei- me of people who drink to e.Ncess are i
.■{17")1. What in your judi;ment an<l from your exiierience, is the best mode of
dealinj; with the whole ipu-stion of into.xicat in<4 liipi">rs ; is it hy unfettered sale, or liy a
license law. or liy proliiliition ; .My idea has lieen and still is that a j;ood license law.
permittini; the sale of liulit wines and heer in public places and entirely prohihitiiiLt in
j>ul)lic bar-rooms and saloons the sale of spirituous li(|uors. would be more likely to be
carried out, beeau.se popular opinion w(»uld support sui'h a law, and if would be more
easily and cHeetually carried <»ut.
J{i/ li<r. hr. MiLro'f:
317*)"). You have spoken in reu'ard to a(hdtenition. Ha\<' you spoken of what you
ha\f heard, or flo you know (»f sidphuric acid and similar drug's bein^ used ? 1 do not
know,
into til
I know these adulterations were contained in such liij
uors as were simiirLr
led
iti-y from the Tnited States. I think they are \erv injui
.■517i")t). You have spoken of the system in the North-west not beinj; a prohibition
system but a system of permit, which in your opinion did not work well .' .My opinion
is, that this wa.s simply owinj; to the fact that the peo])le vould obtain a certain <;uan-
tity of lii|Uor, and so loni; as it was protitable for the pci>ple to bririLC it in they ivould
do so in the face of the law. and in the face of the l;ir;,'e IhkIv of North-west Niounted
Folic.".
;$17-">7. Have you reason to believe tliat there was coiisid(>rablc sunis;<;lin<j; .' I am
very certain of it, 1 ha\e ;;ood re;i.son to think so, atul I have .some knowledjjje of it.
.■M7")f*. |)oyou think that the permit system in the Noi'th-west was faithfully
carried out / 1 think it was exercised as faithfully a.s a law of that description could
he. sii far as I could judije.
.■U7r)!>. To what do you attrii)Ute the steady increase in the number of permits
ftianted and in the increa.se in quantity of licpior entering; the Territories under the
permit system ! -Simply (jwini; to the fact that the ]>opulation lai'nely inci'eased, and
it was very difHcult for the Lieutenant-dovernor to refuse permits to those who were
considered to be ivspectable peojile and who would apply for permits.
.■U7'iO. It is no doubt true that there w.is an increase of population, but it must be
•inbered that the increase of population was not nearly as j;reat, comparatively, as
the permitttMl (piantity of li'iuor. For instance in ISiS.'J, the t|uantity of
nd ill iSitO. it
I'em*
the increas(> in
111
|Uor eiiterin;,' the Noitli-wesl Territories by ]iermit was (),7."<r) t;all
(IDS. a
l.'"»:i,(>7'l •'allons. That is about twentv-tive times as much in IS!)(l
ISS.-i,
against an increase in po]iulation amountiiii; to tuo and a half tunes the number at the
earlier date. Is it not a fact that the permit system was indiscriminately used, instead
of beiiii; Judiciously used / My opinion is, that up to ISS;?, the C. P. J{. was not com-
pleted tlirou^ih but was simply beinu built, and of coui'se there was not anythinji liketl
pop
ilat
ion ill the countrv, and these men w
.'ho I
laii previous
Iv tloiirished on tiie sale of
liijuor could not make it profitable on account of the sparseiiess of the |iopulation. and
the fact W.IS that li(|Uor was smuiritled and ^'ot in by nefarious means. ] think
that is the simple explanation of the position.
317<)l. Since 18t<8 or li^SO permits have been issued? You are talkini; entirely
iibout p
its I ob.serve
.■H7t>2. Yes. entirely. Since 1S8'.) permits li.ive been ;,d\en to brin^' in 100f{alloiis
or iiuu'e for sale, and in these years tlie ipiantity has run up to 1")0.()7U <,'alloiis. Do
you think duiinj; the eai-lier years there was siitlicient sniu<,'i;liiif,' to make the diflerenct;
l)etw(!en (),7.'«) and 1 r):t,000? — I think there was considerable difl'erence in population.
.'517<i-{. l>o you suppose there is any .sniufj^^ling now carried on? 1 do.
(jrKOKUE Tt'HNEH OkTON.
T§
ii»',\
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;ll7lit. S(i tlif pci'niissiuii (if till' salt' (lut's mit fiitirfly (In iiway witli >mim;;liiii; .'
It (liM's away with a \i'i-y lar;;(' pnrtioii ot' it, liut tiioM' inakiii!.,' |pi<itit out of it in tli:il
still
cDiititiui' ti> cai'i'v It (111 t(i sdiiK' extent.
.■117<>-"). Ymi liiiM' stated tliat t;cii('ial iii'ciliiliitidii faiiiinl lie eaii-ied (int. Willy
mi
tell tlie {'iiiimiissiiiii w liv
Sim
ilv fi
the fact that |iii|iulai' ii|iini<iii is ikiI in
til vc 111 r of it, nut wii listandini; the recent \(ite in this I'rnvinee
."tlTtiti. What do yiiii understand liy that \(ite.' I understand liy il that nino-
tenths of the voles were ,i;iveii. in my opinion, simply lieeause the jieople tlioii;;iil it was
lespeeialiie to vote oil that side, without tfivinit any eonsiderat ion to the cpiestion
itself.
llile ti
rt'iT. Is there any siifiiilieanee in the fact that so many people llioiiuht it respeel
Vote on that side
The siirnitieanee lai'L'elv arises from th
that our eleri'V-
iiien ha\(' taken a very <,'reat deal of interest, and pio|ierly so, no douiit, in try in;,' to
stem the evils (if iiit(>in]iera)iee. I think our ehiireh-iioin;; people very often, without
sid(
th
would lie likely to prove
(|uestioii at all in its practical lieariiiL; and as to w
dieth
ler such a measui-e
sful.
ited f(
III' a iirohiliil ion measure
.\t tl
time, I do not think that the peojile to-inoriTiw would feel sutliciently interested in the
sultjeet to assist in any way the otlieers of the law in carrying; out such a measure. I do
it lieli(
eve any lar;je numher o
f then
n would make it a special object to do .so.
1 oil
II7*)^. That is a matter of opinion, lieeause we lia\(' not had the opportunity, liut
do you think the ehunh-iioini; Jieople to whom you Ii.inc referred .md who have rolled
up so lar;;e a vote are the people who do not ^tive consideration to the practical lirariiii;
of matters like this, and do you lielieve that the consideration of the jiractical liearin
of this (juestion rests exclusively with
th
who ar(> of the other way of thinkiii'':
M'
ipinion is that, and it is derived fniin some little experience. We had an extreme way
it re
L'an
lin;r temperance in Ontario, 'vliere I lived. .Ml the counties surroundim
tl
little town wher(
I
(led for ■_'.") veai-s voted in favour of tin
iptmn
if tl
le
le Scott
.\ct. That Act was carried liy majorities, \ery much in the same way as this vote has
hecn carried in rei;ar(l to prohihition : hut in a few years the utter alisurdity of the Act
' people were almost
to Ik
in its etl'ects upon iiito,\icatioii hecaine plain to every onp
unanimous
in desiriuL' to do awav with the law. 'J'hat leads in
lievc that th
same course will he taken here liy those who ha\(' voted in faxdiir of jirohiliit ion with-
out ifixint; any consideration whatever to tlie (|uestioii in its practical lieaiin;,'s. As
soon as they have witnessed the attempt to carry out prohiliition, they will come to the
ion as did the peojile in U'elliii^ftoii, ( irey and Uriice and other counties
same conclus
surroundiii!
th(
inty in which [ li\cd.
.'UTti'.l. 'I'ake the .Maritime I'rox iiices, that adopted the Scott .\ct in a majoritv of
the counties in
N(
i\ji Scotia,
M'W
ii'iinswic
d 1'
Kdv
d h
(I, n
ited
attempts have lieen madt^ to repeal the .\ct, hut in very few cases has it Iieen repealed.
Ilow (Id you account for that condition of atliiirs ? — It may lie owiiii; to some local state
if air
;ors.
I am only speakiiii; from e:;! crieiice and from what I have seen.
il770. Do vou think t he same stale of thiiiiis wduld olil;
iyht
It th
state o
f thinits olitain here ;is olitaiiis now in the .Mariliiii(> Pid\inc(!s ,'- I do not
think so. Take, for instance, li
ies. I'",\('rv fanner in the counirv
■II
that the lir(!weries are of immense \aliie to I
inn, as (illenn'' lull
I a markcl foi' the en
liarlev for which he h
littl
Th
ip of
iame miL'ht
vud in respect to ryi
tliicli is used in the di>tilliiii' of whisk\. Where t he material interests of
so iarjije a
liody of peopl(> are atlecled, .-ind w ill lie all'eite(l injuriously liy anv attempt at proli
liition, 1 do not think the same condition wduld apply to New liruiiswick and Nova
Scotiii, where the
li)r<
|ile do not deiiend on cereal-
and are in a (
peof
■rent iiosition for that rea^
I li.'v lia\ (' no
That
special crops of cereals,
is one reason why I think the
experience of the Maritime l'ro\inces would not lie liorne out here.
.'il77l. You think the lireweries are very \alualile to the fanners? 1 do.
•'5177^'. J)o you think, if the lireweries (lid not purchase certain products from the
fanners, tiiey would he al)le to Kiid markets for this produce at remunerative prices? -
They experience very ^reat ditlicuHy in ti'idin ; a market for their coarse <.'r;iins now,
and iiule(>d this i one of tiie pnihlems re(|uirin;{ solution, in order to ensure the pros-
[lerity of tlii.s great agricultural country.
79
f i
• ' i!
^^^^
1
"\
HIP
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■JI77'i. Vuii hav<' .H|iokeii in favour of a ii<{i(l license law? — Yes.
.'{I77J. Would \i>u have eerlaiii [>i'oliiliitioiis as to hours t- C'ertainiy.
3I77">. Would you prohibit sale durin;; certain iioins on the Saljhath ? — Certainly.
31776. And also sale to minors, and Indians, and drunken men/ —Yes.
31777. And also sale on I'leetion day / Yes.
3I77H. .\nd certain other restrictions,' -Yes.
3177'.). N\ hy thesi' prohihitions ,' -I think these are prohibitions which can l»e, to
a certain extent, carried out.
317*^0. Are they carried out ? They are, to a certain extent.
3I7H1. .\re the prohibitive provisions of the license law carried out? I think they
are not carried out ; but 1 know, in fact I feel positive that when these prohibitive
mt'asures and these obstacles ai-e not in the way of fi'ee sellin;; of liquor otlier than at
proper times, there is a yreat deal more drunkenness both on Sunday and on election
days. We wuuld have a i-epctition of the old (juarrels that formerly occurred on elec-
tion days if th»' fret; selling of intoxicants were pernntted, (juarrels and disturbances
which do nrtt oc<'ur mnv.
."$17^2. Why is the sale of li<juc»r on election tlay prohibited J For many reasons.
One reason is that it prevents the iiiHuence which the free .sellinj; or givinf^of li<|Uor has
upon the electorate, which iutluence no doubt differs in portions of the same con-
stituency. Another reason is, that it conduces to the lielter preseivation of order and
the pie\»Mition of the unseeruly quarrels that formerly took place at many of our elections.
317H;{. It is conceded, then, that the sale of drink does prmluce these undesirable
efl'ects on election day, and in a certain dei;ree on f>tln'r days. If it is well to prohibit,
the sale foi- the sake of priMlueinj; these beneficial results on election days, would it not
be widl, in order to secure similar results, to prohibit it on other days? I think not. 1
do not think the ar^tunient could be canied to that point, simply for the reason that I
do not think public opinion would back up any effort of that kind to carry the law into
effect, and I do not think public opinion would back uji the o*hcers of the law in carry-
iny out any such extreme measure as total prohibition.
317H4. ^ .iu do not re<;ard the expressi(»n of tin- |)ublic will fit the plebiscite as a
true expression of publii' oj)inion?— J do not.
317<sr). Are people in the habit of doin^r that kind of thinj; for fun, as was stated
yesterday? — It is \(!ry dilHcult to understand why the people do cert^iin things, ft is a
verv connnon observaticm that in many ca.ses the jjopulace will follow one ajiother like
sheep, without thinkin<; for a moment the i-eason why. I think that is alwut the way
in which this plebiscite vote has been carried in this country. I do not think the people
have taken the trouble to think at all about it.
.■il7S(). Do you think the i)eople who voted " Nay " did it thinkingly or unthink-
in^^lv / I think they jirobably thou<;ht it was ri<,'lit to object to it.
3I7!^7. Do you think frcjm youi- knowiedj;e. that they are j)eople who genei-ally act
after serious thou-iht, having in view the welfare of tlie country at large ; while the other
party, led by the cleruy as you have stated, are people who do the unthinking acts and
\ot(' on on(^ side because it is respectable to do so I — T think in regard to the lai'ger
bulk of the people that is true. The men who \<tted •' Nay " would not have \()ted that
way without thinking somewhat on the subject.
317HS. Ft has Ix^en suggested that a good many of the votes, perhaps the majority
of them, were Conservative votes, given with the view of placing the Provincial (Jovern-
ment in a " box. ' That was the |)hrase usi'd. TIas it occurred to you that there was
anything in that assertion f I cannot think so, and 1 do not believe there is anv reason
for such a statement being made.
31789. It was so suggested by one of the witnesses, and F did not know but that
this might Ix' your opinion ? No.
•'U7!)0. You are a j)hysician, I understand, and you hold an otiicial position, Ijeing
in charge of the Fndians in Maiutolwi? -Yes.
31791. Kave you found that the use of liquor is injurious to Indians physically or
otherwise ! -F find this, that Indians if given li(juor become almost maniiics, even with
very small quantities. Liquor certainly changes the character of the Indian very much
indeed, much more .so than that of the white man.
GeOROE TURNKU OhTON.
80
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{17'')-. Is nut till- (iiiviTninfiit cfiri-tul tu [iroliibit tlif iiit iinliu'tiiiii of lii|iii>i' n|ii)ii
(iiivcniiiu'iit Indian rcstTvcs .' Yes.
.'UT'.t.'J. Jliivc yi(U Im'cm successful iti kwpiii;,' li(( iur jiwiiy tVom tlic liMJiiiiis, aiitl has
its absence pidducf-rl excellnnt ptleets! Certainly, in tlie outlyinf{ district.s. Hut while
it is strictly \iv iliibited on the resei'ves, it is a well-known t'act tliat when Indians cnine
to Winnipeg; or Selkirk they can t;et all the liijuor they want. There ari' always [leople,
who are ready to make money l>y i'n<,'aj;inj; in this illicit triitlii-.
."UT'.M. Then the prohibitions concernin;,' Indians are violated .' ^'es.
.HI 79'). Has it occurred to you that since such is the case, it would be very well to
authorize sonit^ j)eople there tf) sell to Indians? No.
.SI 7U(i -'J7. Why not ! 1 think the Indian racre diHers ^^reatly from the white race.
The restrictions of civilization in many other ways besides thin which we are discussinj;,
h.ive by decrees ele\ate(l the white ])opiilation to such a height, with the j,'reat a(l\an<'e
in the sciences and hif^her cultivation in every way, as to enable them to induli;e in
sjiirituous liiiuorsof dill'erent descriptions and .stimulants to a very larm' extent without
recei\inj,' any injury, an<l in many cases witli ;jreat benefit to the race. I do not thii'.k
such could occur amonj; the ill-cidtured and ill-informed Indians, becairse my experience
is that if they take liiiuur at all they always take it to exce.s.s.
.■?179S. Then you thiidv that for the purpose of civilization, it is well to keep it
away from them?- Yes.
.'ilT'.)'.). Are they making progress? Yes.
."USOO. It is slow progress, I sui)pose. yet it^ can l>e noticwl ? Yes.
.'ilf^Ul. |)o vou think thev will evei' come to a condition when thev can be put on
the same plane with respect to intoxicants as the white people occupy, by education /—
That is ])art of. the general problem as to what shall be clone with the Indian race. We
know they will not try to earn their own living, at all events the large pro])ortion of
then), notwithstanding they see starvation before their eyes in the coming winter ; they
will make no ell'ort whatever to [H'ovide for themsehcs.
.■US02. Do you find the Indians themselves are disposed to obey the liipior prohi-
bition in regard to them ? — I think many of them are.
.'USOiV Then they see the benetit of it? — No doid>t tlii'v do, at all events a great
many of them do..
."UiSOt. Is it proper to infer that the greater intelligence of the white man makes
him less disposed to obey the law ? That is rather a s])ecious argument. All 1 can say is
this, that the greater intelligence of white ]ieo]ile enables them to use what isa great boon
to humanity in one sense, and in another one of its greatest curse.s, in the larger majority
of cases without injury to themseKes, either intellectually, ment.ally or j)hysically.
:}I)^0"). |)o you believe that the great majority of those who use intoxicants derive
benefit from them ? — I think the greater majority of those who use thi'm in moderation
.'ilSOC). Do the great majority of those who use them at all use them in model a-
t ion
;nsu7. Yet
lile to
vou admit it is the Lrreatest curse vv h
d t.
d
th
It i.s (lesira
restrict it, bv lici'iisiii
lie miiumizec
ill some other vvjiv. that these evil elVects
;$I80S. You think licensing will do that t Yes.
.HlSO'.t. .\nd vou would have a license law wit
i-iUiil
ihibit
Ions and .severe
Ities for the violation
.f tl
lose pro
iliibit
ions
.'11(^1(1. hiiring your observation of the license law. have you observed that it
regulates, to any e.xtent, the ti'ade? - I am very sure it does.
3IHI1. Does it regulate the trade in Winnipeg? — T think so: it has doni! very
great Ixiiietit here. You do not find any disturbances in any of the hotels (jii .Suntlay
or during prohibited hours, such as occurri'd formerly when tlu^ restrictions were not so
irreat.
."ilSlL'. Does th(! license law le
till
e amou
lit of drinking? — I think it doe.s to
SOI
esse:
ne extent, and it certainly les.sens many other evils, such as <|uarrelling and unseemly
conduct.
21 —6**
u
mi
ifi-
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.UHi:?. If l)V tlii.s (Iffiicf of proliiliitiiiii whiili is pidviditl uiidtM- ii license law, thw
evils can he niiriiiiii/.etl, would it bi; well to endeaNoiir. if possible, to extend the pro-
hibition and lechu'o tlie evils to nil .' I do not think so. The otdy jxohihition beyond
what we ha\e cesorted to. I think, has been tried and found unsuecessful, sueh lestric-
tions as ate fuinished by the Scott Act, wliich is a local Act. When that law wa.s
bi'on^'ht into foi'ce, the manufacture and sale we supposed to be forbidden within the
district, and yet the li(|Uor business was continued eNcti to a larjjer extent than it had
been previous to the pa.ssa|,'e of that law. 'I'hat is my experience. Wherever an
attempt is made to enforce a law of that kind, it must fail. 'I'he people do not desire to
liave their liberties curtailed to too jfreat an extent. They are willin;; at the same time
to sulTcr curt.iilmer.t of their libei'ties where thtn' consider it is for the public ;,'o(id ; but
J do not t'link they are willin;; to submit to any curtailment in order to carry out a
mere sentiment.
.'{1S14. You do not believe that if a ffeiiei'al prohibitctry enactment were pass<'(l, it,
could be enforced ! |)o you belicsve that such a law would have j^oodellects ! Stt ; evil
etVects.
.'MiHl."). Do you think total akstinence is compatible with the best health /-I do
m>t think it is compatible with the best health and the greatest amount of «;ner;iy, both
intellectually and physically. I think that the energy of a people who are total pro-
hil)itionists is nothing like the ecjual of that possessed by a people who take liciuor in
moderation, because I think there are times when a stinmlant is the greatest l)enetit in
the worltl, especially Jifter great fatigue. J could give you many in.stances of that kind.
31816. You mean taken m(Klerately ? — Moderately, if you like.
.')1S17. Is there any tendency in that case to need the stimulant repeatedly and in
increasing (luantities? - With some, it is so.
.•il.HbS. Only with some.' Yes.
31Hl',(. Is habitual moderate drinking harmful ', — It is just the same as it is with
opium. A habit of that kind increases, if you iiululge it.
31H2I). All things being e(jual, has an abstainer Jiny better chance of life than an
habitual drinker.' — I tlo not think so; I do not think statistics will bear out aiiv such
assertion.
31Si!l. Has the total abstainer a better chance of recovery in case of .sickness oi-
accident/ — I do not think he has a better chance than the moderate drinker. There are
some di.seases. infectious disease.s, in which the hanl drinker does not combat the disease
well. But take fevers and many other diseases it is generally the opinion of medical
men thai those who take stimulants in moderation will withst.'ind the diseases better.
.■$182l'. Why do life insurance companies refuse risks on habitual ilrinkers, T am not
.speaking of excessive drinkers?- I am not aware that that is the case. 1 have been
examiner for life insurance companies for over thirty years in my practice, and I do not
remember a ca.se refused where a man drank moderately and took stimulants in moderji-
tion. Probably you include those who take li(]Uor in excess among habitual drinkers.
318l'.'!. I am referring to men drinking hiibitually, it may be a glass of wine at
each meal or a glass (»f beer? 1 do not think any iiisurajice examiner, and 1 have been
examiner for a number of comjjaides, would do sf>.
.■51824. Are the children of the moilerate drinker more likely to Ijecome intemjierate
than the children of the total al)staincr .' 1 do not think so. 1 have even seen sons of
temperance men become gi-cat drunkards, and sons of drinking men become abstainers.
3182"). I spoke of the rule ? There is no rule.
31826. Have you noticiHl what are likely to be the effects on the oflspiingof intem-
perance on the part of the parents? —If excessive use is indulged in continuously and
habitually, there are some injurious ellects caused. I have not, however, observed any
particular rule on this matter, and I have paid a good deal of attention on this sid)ject.
."51827. 8o you think, looking the matter all over, that the use of intoxicants in
moderation is not harmful ? Will you please deline moderation? I find it is a very
variable term and that the detiintion is wonderfully elastic? — I think we are all con-
stituted differently, and what is moderation to one would be very great immoderation to
another. We all know very well that some people can take only a very small tjuantity
Geokqe Tuuner Orton.
82
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
cif Htiimiliiiit. I liiiv*! known mmmi wlm cmilil not tiikt- .i t)'as|i(Miht'iil nut nt' an m-dinaiy
ii'a<'ii|i uilliiiiit it making; tlicni alnmsl ill.
;HSJ,s. 'I'licii it is a HiattiT ut' ti-ni|ii'raini'nt, I su|i|i<isi' .' It i«. llic >aini' witli inanv
niiMJicinfN anil with niany kinds of ncniiisliuu'nt. Sonit- in«'ii, if tln-y taki' li>|i Ih'coiiic
ill. anil i( is so in like nianm-r witli tlir use of li(|iioi-. 'I'Ih'It air sonif wlio iimiiot takr
liic sniulli'st i|Uiintity : and, (liiTi-fnrc, it is vn-y iin|x>ftanl to llirrn that tlicy slioiild
know what lln'V can Itrar and Im* ;.'iiidiMl \t\ tliat aniuiint.
;liS'_".*. ^'oii liaM- stated that sonic nirn seem to Im- alli-rti'd liy liiinor, niorc or Ii-sm,
ai-i-oi'diiiL; to tlicit' ti'iiipt'ianirnt, and tip v di< nut. a|i|icai' to sto|i to think of that |>oint.
Would It not III- wi'll to liaM> fvi'i'v man unilci';;o a nn'diral I'xaniinat ion, and thru lii>
iiiifjlit lit) iilil*' to H*'tn liruiiHH to siiy w-|ictlii'i' In' could drink or not drink .' I am afraid
ihc |)roc('ss winijd lie a very ex|peiisive one.
.■(li^;!!'. Would tliat lie in accordance with your view.' That is not necessary,
i'lverv man is a law to himself, and he ;.'eiierally know> pretty well when he is Ltoini,'
wrnii;^, to use a coimuon expression.
/If/ Jiii/i/i' Ml- Ihiiiiilil :
;ils;U. If you came .across a man wlio cannot oi- a law to himself, would you inter-
fere in such a case with those who can lie laws to themselves, or would you interfere
witli t liat |iarticular indi\idual,' 'rakin;; the man who is in the hahit of drinkiii;,'
lialiitually, what would you do f The haliitual drunkard should he punished at all
c\ents.
■"{iJ^.'tl.'. Which would you think the lietter remedy ; to send a man to jail for a
few days, or to place him in some institution with a view to permanent reformation .'
< >f course a man who liecomes a continuous drunkard a re;,'ular drunkaril, is in a
decidedly dillerent condition from an ordinary imin, and the proper way for ihetiovefii-
nient to deal with him is to treat him as if he were on that point insane. There are
institutions where a man of that kind can lie properly treated until he has gained com-
niaiid of himself and a;;ain liecome a rational human liein;^'.
.'JIS:')."!. l)oyou know any country in the world in which there is total prohiliition
of the drinking of liiiuor '. There is in Turkey, 1 licjieve.
.'WS.'U. Is it not a rule of faith there ,' We have the i>\ idence of the i{ev. l>r.
Stewart before us, that in the Fiji Islands there is such a system of com[iulsory prohibi-
tion, and there only? -I liaxe heard so.
.'i 1 f<.'5."i. Takini; Maine, where liiinor has not been allowed to be sold or kept for
.sale, can you not make an estimate as to the eU'ects of total abstineiu^e, lookin;,' upon
the people of Maine as a total abstinence community .'No, I cannot possibly do so.
.■ilS:i(). From your know'ledjfe of the workin'.; of the Scott Act, do you consider that
the people of Scott Act counties .should be classed as total abstainers ? No ; they never
were so.
;il''^."i7. You have been asked as to whether the prohibitory clauses of the license
law as to election days ami so on are observed. Have you considered as to whether
these clauses prohibitini; the sale on election day.s, and on Sunday, commend tlieinsch es
to the juil!,'ment and conscience of a far lar;,'er portion of the commuiuty than any such
nii'Msure as prohibit ion .' Does that uccouni for the circumstance that prohibition on
tlie^e days is well observed .' I think so.
:ilS.'{S. From your obser\ation and knowledge of this rule in rej^ard to elections, is
there anythinir to prevent the people in any ]ilace whcr- th'.s side on election days is
proliibiled layin;,' in on the day previous a private supjiiy, sutlicient to enalile them to
tide over the following day ' That is done, and we all know it.
.'il '**.■!'.•. So there is no coni)iarison between prohibition for one day ■•md prohibition
on the peopl(> permanently ( No, the circumstances are ipiite dilVerent.
•Wf^lO. Have you seen the operation of the Scott Act in the Maritime Provincc.H ?—
No.
;ilS41. Have you been in any jilace in any of the provinces where this state of
thin<,'s existed ; where the Scott Act was enacted, iinil by a sort of unwritten .system a
plan was adopted of reguhirly tininj^ the people engaged in the tratHo a .sutlicient amount,
almost eijual to a heavy license f— I have not seen that.
21_Ci**
83
TT
,
If
ft
I ! '■
I
I l|:
i!
Liquor Traflic — Muiiitobv.
US):.'. W'kuIiI llml In- II Millicii-iil iinliicfiiiciit tii tlii' [ pit- ti. I<('c|i llii' riiin'f liii-iit
ill torn' mill siiM' I Ih'iiisi'Ix I's tVoin liixalim
nut rust ilit'iii sii iiiiii'li (liiriii;; tin- Si-utt A
.ilMJ.f. If
(I wli
you toiiiitl ii .section o
t' til
IK'flll)-
■ ' II
rt lilll
liiixc not iiii'iiiit to SUV tliHt it rciillv (lid
f lis \v
li.-ii I
IccliM's were issiici
.llflf tin- Scolt Art Wii.s in ft
tliiit law was ciii-ricd out, iukI whi<i-<- no t'tl'urt wiin niiidc to srr
lire 11 "■('fohi
conviction, witii iiicrciiNcd tine, on tliii'd conviction, wouhl tliiit fact lend you to Iteiicve
that siicii a license systeni, carried out ellicieiitly, vxould In- tiie liest measure to adopt/
I think
I think it has heen <|oiie,
.'il.**!!. In re;;ai(l to the North went Territories, where you have had some ex
|H>rien<'e, are you aide to form an opinion iit to why I**hn lii|Uor wtMit in under the permit
system duriiii; the lirsl year of its operation jiroportionately, than diirin;; later years,
and further, liiat when periiiils increased, sninj^tilin;; increased as re^'ards thei|uantity
admitted/ I cannot >ny posiiixely that my oltsei'vat ion woulil carry out that idea.
NN'ith repird to the North west Territoiies, there was an entirely diU'errnt state of
things after the consti'uution of th«i C. V. \{., wlien tin* |M'ople were ahle to live more in
towns and the population was
not .so scattei'cd as it was iiefon
d wl
len, as W(
all
know, a ^'reat deal of lii|uor was consumed on account of the social conditions of tli
jieople, which, as I lia\e stated, weie entirely clian;;e<l after the construction of the rail-
viiy.
In ISS;J, the road was lieiiiL' liuill ihrou'di the Terrilori
'I'liat is the onlv ex-
]ilanation I have to oiler in re(;ard to the sale,
;i|f<t."). |)id the huildin^ of the railway make it much easier to hrinj; in lii
|U()r
iile;.'ally ! \ lielieve it did to some extent. < )n the other hand, in otiiei' paiticuiars it
made it more dillicult to hi'injiit aci'oss the Ixiundary.
.'Uf^HJ. Have you any reason to know wliy so niuc-li was l)rou;^lit in Ity sniu;;;,'
:li
and by tlie railway, and why it was found ini|M>.ssil)le to prevent iff — I think tliat was
the casi' very largely.
.(1^47. In that way, I sujipose, we may account for the lar^er (|i itity admitted,
't at one time
IS almost like
an
il which, of course, shows a lar''e increase
It
a well known fact
the character of tiie lii|Uor admitted into the Northwest Territoriej
poison, Imt still the peoph- thank it. 'I'lien* wiis a very stiong feiding in favour of
j;reater iilieity undei' the permit system. I know that as a fact, simply hecanse people
k-ere often compelled or teni|ited to Ijiin;; in liipiors that wer<> not tit for use, whereas liy
le extension of the pei'init systeni they would have been able to obtain proper, healthy
tl
was a very stroll'' reason
and unadulterated lii|Uors.
.'51841^. Y(JU believe that was one end in view? That
why the increa.se was allowed.
Jii/ /i'rr. />/•. .Wrhnd:
.■U^l'.l. I notice in the report of I'ol. Herchmer of the North-west .Mounted Poliei^
foi' IS8S, he .says:
I Ih'IIcvc timt liiinsc i.s iiiii.>'i(iii'iil llic iviiiiily for all tlio ti()ii))li'H in ((iiiiicclieii with the (ircsent
hitiiutiiiii. anil liaviii).' livcil In Manitnlia in tliu old ilays. \\licii a |ii'rinit was rci|iiii'i'il, ami wlicii it
was only r(s|niiisil>lc |)io|)li' wlio were alilc to |(ii(iiirc tlicin, ami having li\cil in llial iiortion of the
I'liivinii' since tlie liiinHc law was cnIciiiIciI to it, ami liaving iliiiing all the time 1 livcil llicic occu-
pit'il noMitions « liicli ooiasion-'il lontinually tiavclliiifi over a larger settion of tlic country than any
other icsidcnt, I liclicvc that I |ioNstss Hiitliiicnt infoiinatioii to speak with sonii' authority on tlii.s
i|iii'Ntion, anil I nnliesitatingly alliiin that iiinlcr the |K'nnit .system aiul the N'oitli west .\ct, as then
iiit('i|)ietiil liy our juilgi's, tluic was less intoxiialion among the whites, accoiiliiig to |)ii|iulatioii :
anil llu'ie can he no i'iim|iarisoii lietween the i|naiitity of liquor then supplieil to liulians ami the
i|iiiintity llu'V have olitaiiieil since that portion of the province was, as certain people call it, emaiici'
paleil. The cxlraoiilinaiy powers of tlu' North wt'st .^hluntel| I'oliue, it l)eiiig in their power to
I'aicli forthwith, without process of law wherever into.viuatiiig liiiuors are supposed to lie in posseH-
; . .1 f IV.. ..1 .. 1 : 1...1.1 1 »l » i;ii: ..1... ■ '
Bt ill I II ii'i i II «i II II, >\ 1 ' in 'III |ri 1 n \ .^.-. . il ill M ti 111 I T I ^ I lilll '.Mi^K t il•j^ III I iii'i .^ III t .-iiiifipiif^fi I iii I If III Miinncn'
siiin, these powers are of no elt'ecl where permits are helil. and consL'(|Ueiitly great diHiciilty is ex)>er-
ieiiicil ill olitaiiiing I'onvictions against tlie ilealeis. Scaioli has heen fiei|iieiitly made hy us where
we were assured iii|Uor was sold. The lii|iior was found hut a permit was always jirodueed to cover
it. Our powers aie therefore iilirogated when permits are freely issued. During the year an inno-
vation was estalilished hy licensing the .sale of heer of an alcoholic strength not exceeding 4 per cent.
A fair test has not yet heen made, and the results are not yet apparent. ,So far, the iiuinher of |)cr-
mits issued apparently has not decreased. It will he ditlicult to prevent the sale of heer of greater
alcoholic strength. None hut a eheinical expert coulil determine the lunoiiiit of alcohol in any jmr-
ngt
(jrKOiiCJK TuifNEU OfiTON.
Bi
57 Victoria.
SesHiomil Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
!' tl
tirlll.ll '•■•r, mill llli'lirmi' it unllld lir illllii'lllt in tlll» ilislriil t>i iilit4ll;i a ■ •ilivirlinll
f...
a Hli'iiiiut'i
IhtI' til. Ill tllllt III I'llMil. hril^^iMtt lliivr i'\ri'|ilii>|iiil fai'illllrH till' sl'|lill^', iif u llirli Ntillli' IlilM' lilki'll
i|\aiitauf. W lii»k> nr l>iitiii|\ iiiiilii tlu' iiaiiu' ul " Imiii " r\liiliil< ijiiiti' ax rxliilaiatiiiK I'lli < ti> at
iili'i it
if
^ mWII jilaill iiaiiir.
IS)* V'll iilix
'I'Mil timt iiH till- rt'siill nt' vniir nliMTMiiiiiii ill llif Nmlli west TiTfi-
lorn"
I
• ■aiilM't >-iiv SI), lii'railsi
I ll
IM' lint lii't'M III till i'i|l|iil |>ii«lllii|| III Jllilui
r
wiiiilil. liiiui'\)T, Ih- iiii'liiii'd to (liiiilit it iiiyM'lt'.
."U**")". I '<> Villi t liiiik ( '(iiiiiiiissiniiiT lliTrliiiiiM' ■< ii| i|Hirl Unit ii's nmiiiIiI Iw i|iiiii> iis
i;ihhI as iliiiM- lit' any |>iT.siin wild Hilly \i.sils tin- 'rciiitnrirs iii'i'asiitiialiy .' I tiiiiiksn,
^'|||| iiiiiHt n-i'iillt-ct that Ills |M)siliiiii as li*>iiil nt' tlii> .Mniiiilfil I'lilicc iIin'm nut |ilac(> liiiii
ill as t.'<MMl a |in.siliiin tn liml nut tlirsi* iiiattris as lliat iiri'ii|iit'<l liy siiiiii' iilliiT |ini|ilt
(1 ll
ilial
ilKl III' priilialily inadi- tlirsc rniiai
til
iks tl
nil Ills iiwii (ilisi'i'\ atiiiii, winch wmilil rxti'iu
<1
ixtT a Vffy liiiiitt'il s|ilifri'. I sIkuiM iiiia^iinc, in tin- ili--rliar;;i' nt liis iliitirs.
.■l|>«"i|. ^^ hen ymi s|iiiki' aliinit siiiii^';iliiii;, I su|i|io,si' yuii sfiukc nut tniiii ym ' [it'i'
iiial (iltsiM'vatiiiii iiMT a \ffy lafyi- aii'a. hut tVniii fiiiiinicii f<'|nirt ! I''niiii soni
lillMTVat Hill.
• iJ.'^'lL'. NV.Iulli it 111' MTV l\l
t'llsiM- iil.sfix at lull
I
was
liackwani :iii<l t'l
.1
tliriiiiLrli till- Null ll west 'I'l-rrilniics tor a iiiiiiilicr nt vears. i-
atlcr till- ciinslnu'i imi
it till' I'liail. I had tii <{u tii iii'ilisii Ciiliiiiiliia, wlii'lr I had liiisint'ss, rvrry yi-ai', and <it'
iiiirsi', I had iimiiv t'licilities tur ascci'taiiiiii'', thiiiiiidi iiiTsnnal knnwli'du*'. that this
iiisiiii'ss tn which I rt'tVr is diiiic.
;i| •"•">.'<. S| leaking almul the elect inn law |iriihiliit iiii; t he 1,'ivini,' and sale <it lii|iiiii' itii
electliin davs
is tha'
aw ever viii
lated / I h
It the slii
^t diiulit that it
lele are iiieli who ''<> w
Tl
a dead lettei
itii li<|Uiii' in their pucketM tn the |iii|!in;,' places, making' (he I
aw
'.\\X'> I. Then »!iere is still iimredr less drink in;; .' There is vi'i-y little, cniiipiinitively
;t|s:
I).
> ynu
rei'ard this \iiilatiiin nt the law as deiiinnstrat i\e nt the iiselessni
nt the law ! I (In lint think it deiiiniist rates the iiselessness nt' the law. 1 think the lax
is \ery useful, ill spite nt' the vinlatinn, tn tlie e.xtont indii-iiled.
.lis:.);. It" there
was a jirnhiliitnrv law and there were vinlatinns, wniild these
viniatinlis deliinlistrate the uselessness nt' the law? On accnuiit nt the piililic t'eelini;
heini,' really imt in accnrd with tntal prnhiliilinn, a ;,'reai deal nt injury wniild lie dniie,
ImiIIi tn the iiinral character nf the jienple and al.sn tn the penple i,'eiieially, l)y the eiiael-
liieiit nf Nucli a law.
■'tlsriy. Why, in ynur npiiiinn, wiiuhl it damage the character nf the penple, when
it wniild lie the vinlatinn nf a law tn pre\eiit an e\il thin;; and not to aiithnri/e an e\il
thin;; .'--It depends mi what ynu consider to he an evil tliiiii;.
.'ilsriS. The e\il of the drink trade / -I do lint eniisider the pmper and ninderate
ise nf either malt li(|Unrs
nr spirituous li(|Un
inadiilterated, as a iiuhlic iniiirv
.'UM.")!). Iiiit ynu have stated you would jilace severe jiro
ihihiti
around the t rade i
—Such a.s are ahsnlutely necessary f<ir puhlic peace and nrder, and fnr previMitin;;
jM.nple dnin;; an iiijury tn their iiei;;hhnurs.
ilNiiO. |)n ynu think a x inlatinii nf these proliihitions has a deinondizing effect? — I
think so.
.■iliStil. Would it not he as well to resort to prohihitinii ,' 1 think imt, hecaiise it is
iver a Very limited extent. Of course that decision has iieeii Lriveii liy majorities of
leniile nv»'
limit
e I areas, am
1 tir
■y
lire niilv occasiona
I insti
That is th
.'UM'iL'. How are we to ;;et at puhlic ojiinion .' You do not attach any importan
tn the |i|eliiscite ill Maiiitnha f We linpe ynur I'oiniiiission will do a ;;reat deal.
.'ilf<(i."i. That is wliy we are iiuestiniiiiii; you and other witnes.se
rea.snii 1 am .i;iviii;; you my opinions.
.■tlHri4. We may not he ahle tnohtain puhlic n))inion, as well as the jienple may he
ahle tn express it iit the halint hnx .' 1 think experience will shnw us a ;;reat deal how-
far the puhlic will ;;o. We hav«> had experience nf the .Scntt Act. Tiiat Act was
largely eiicnura;;ed hy the peo|)le hecaus(! they thou;;ht it nii;;ht do some ;;o(Ki, hut as
they found, hy practical experience, it proved to he a dead letter, the people were ;;lad
to ;;et rid of it. With that exjierience and with that kno\\led;;e, T think it would he
85
liiquor Traffic — Manitoba.
: if'
I
i !,
i i !
lli
^6
W
\n-y unwise for iiiiy Icj^ishition to he eiiiu-ted, either by t!ie loeiil or Dominion Le<i;is-
liitiin', ill favour of total |iroliiliiti(>n.
olSC)"). Do you tliink llie Seott Act a dead failure? (ienerally it was.
.'HH(i(J. Do you tliiiik it wouhl daiiia^^e tlie trade of Wimiijieg if tlie li(|Uor trade
were not permitted in tliis city ( Yes, if total pr'oliiliition were attempted in \\'iMiiipe<,'.
.'US(>7. I understaiul you lia\e fifty lictMised drink siiops in Winnipeg/ Tliey arc!
jn'iiunpally hotels.
.'USO.S. These (ifty liuensed houses wduld probaiily gather in about 8()'>0,000 a year.
Do y(»u tliink it would be an injury to the business of Winnipeg if they were no longer
allowed to carry on their business and that the money would bo turned into other
chiimiels? — A great tleal of that money would be turned into channels in which Winiii-
jieg Would not be beiietited. The people cannot keep it in tlieir own ]iockets, but must
use it in som.i' way, and by em]>loying it in difTerent ways they benefit general trade.
;ilS('>'.l. Doy.m think "that tiie'StiUO.OOOis as well and profitably distributed by the fifty
men who obtain it as it woulil be l)y the several hundreds of men and their families who
t ransfer t lie money into the hands of these fifty men for the time being? l)o they
really receive great benefit? -I do not think they do, though of course they obtain a
certain e(pii\alent. The men probal)ly t.'ike alcohol, in a large number of ca.ses, because
thi'y think it adds to their ow n pleasure, comfort and happiness.
;U^70. Does it do so .' -We might carry on this disi'ussion for some time. T can,
of course, give an illustration. All the toys anl fancy goods in Winnipeg are of no use,
and are of cour.se not of the full value of the money [laid for tiiem ; but it does not follow
that these toys sliouid be entirely done away with, simply on the ground that tiiey are
useless, for by buying tliem you gi'e circulation to many a dollar.
.'51^71. l>o you consider that a dollar spent on children in this way is more properly
.spent than a dollar spent in li(|uor / I do not think it is necessary for a father to go
home in a state of " fuddle," if he conducts himself as the majority of people do. Are
you assuming tiiat tlii' great majority of jieople are drunkards?
.■ilf<72. Sujiiiosing betakes ilie toys home to the boys and girls or spends the dollar
in drink and has a .sort of a jolly air, fetds comfortable, which is the more profitable to
himself and family? Are the ca.ses parallel? — I think they are. The use -of li((Uor
in iModeration does a man's family no harm, and is perliajis less injurious to the
material prosperity of his family than spending a lot of money in useless toys and decor-
ations. At the same time, i do not see why the other shorld be forbidden. Why
should not the childr'Mi have their pleasure*, and why at the .same time should not a
man take what is gooil f(jr his health and pleasant to himself, s(j long as he does not
take too much of it?
.'?1S7.'5. You, as a physician, have come into contact with such families? -A
great deal.
31^74. Ha\e you observed whether the drinking habits of the father have had
injurious etlects in any degree on domestic conditions? I have found a great deal of
unlia)ipine,ss among those who have taken li(juor to excess.
3187"). Do a great numher take li(]uor to excess? — No, not a great number.
3187G. Do you think the number would amount to •"» per cent of tin; people? — I
do not think so.
3]tS77. Would it amount to '2 per cent?— Probably.
GEOUfiK TruNKii OirroN.
86
'n
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
PATRICK LAWLEH, of Wimiijiei,'. on J)eiiig duly sworn, deposed as follows :■ —
Jiy J>id(fc McDonald :
•'U87S. You !irt! (Jovoriior of tlic Jail, T holicve? --Yes.
31S7!). Is tli(> jail for tlie county and for the nity? — It is tin- district jail.
.'i I f'iSO. What is the nanieof the district/ — The Eastern Judicial District of Manitoba.
.'ilSSi. How loiii; hav(> you icsidod in Winnipcs; ? Ahout 18 years.
.■?1SS2. |)id you conic hci'c from one of the otiicr provinces/ — "So, T came here from
the old conntiT.
.'JISS;!. How lon^i liaNO you been (iovernoi- of the jail I — About 12 yeai's.
.'(1S84. Do you lind a lartfo propoi'tion of the prisoners connnittetl to jail are thei-e
throuudi drunkenness, directly or indirectly? — Very few are comniitt(Ml ther'e for
drunkenness.
,'il88."). What is done with those who are committed to jail for drunkenness ? — -
The jioilce dispose of them at the police station.
■'ilSSC). So only a small ])r()jiortion come to the jail tliroujili drunkenness? A very
small number.
.'iI8S7. <.)f those who come to the jail on acco'ii t, of othei' otl'ences, is there a large
jiroportion of cases wliii'h might bi' attributed to ^i; .mkeiiness indii'ectly? -I record the
prisoners as the\ come in, and obtain fi'om them /in account of tlie extent to which they
use intoxicating licpiors. I have found that about one-half lia\(' i)een gi\fn to the
use of intoxicating li(|Uoi' in excess. That is the fact as obtained from theii' own state-
ments to jny.self.
;il8SS. Ifave you I'cjison to believe that the report is true? -I have leason tobelieve
it is ti'ue in a good many eases.
.'USSi). Do you find that t(j be the case both among males an<l females? Y''es,
.'ilS!)0. Do you find it alntut the same in i-egard to pi'isoiu'rs who are conunitted
foi' oft'ences that are sometimes <'alled ofTences of a commercial chai'acter, such as forgery
aiul crimes of that kind : are the parties given to the use of drink ? -Thi-y are.
■■!1S!)1. Have you found them tiie same as the others in that respect f Yes.
.'ilS92. And you have found it so in regard to people who are gi\en to burglary /--
Yes, in regard to a gO(Kl many of them.
• il89;{. About the s.imc propoi-tion as the others? — Yes.
•'ilSill. Have you any persons connnittcd to jail for selling illii'itly ? 1 have none
in at present for that of'/'encc, but I had a good many in former yeais, about IS"',), 18S(j
ami in 1880.
.'M8!)r). Tlii^y wire for selling li(pior conti'ary to the license law? Yes, anil for
.sending liquor thror.gl) the .laintry.
IU8!)(). ^'ou havi- not so many cases now? -No, 1 ha\(' not had so many prisoners
of that kind foi' a ntnnber of years. The chief cases occurred when the railway was
going up fi'om Hat Portage and the east; a grvat many were brought tip who were
peddling whisky on the line.
31897. 1 supj)ose your district then had larger boundaries than it has at i)resent ?
— Y'es, it went as far as Port Artliui-.
31898. Have you, as a citizen of Winniix'g, obsei'xcd the working of the license
law ? I have not given any attention to it.
31899. So far as you know, has it worked satisfactoi'ily or othei'wisc; ? — So fai' as I
undei'stand, it has worked satisfactoi'ily.
31900. Ai'e there any amendments you desii'e to suggest tf( the Commission? -I
could not say.
31901. Have you ever lived in a ci>untry wher'e pi'ohibition was in force ? — Never.
31902. Have you ever visited such a country ? No.
31903. How many prisoners ar'e in jail now ? —Twenty-eight.
Ihl Jii'v. Br. Mc.Uod:
31904. Tn regai'd to tho.se 28 prisoners, what would be their' crimes principally ? —
Petty larceny.
87
J' ,
( !
II
liiqiior Traffic — Manitoba.
3190."). Men and woiiit'ii Ixith f— There are a few men in for vaiji •iiicv. ii<> women.
.■$1000. Are tliere any boy.s and girls about IT) and IG years old .' N'o.
31907. Perhaps you do not have (hem committed to jail .so young .' We had .some
young people a few years ago.
:{11)0S. Of the l'S i)risoners, would you lie able to judge whether most of them were
drinking people (»r not ? — I could not judge. I know that a few of them were pretty
hard drinkers.
31909. So you have observed that half of the people under your charge are given
to drinking, more or less? — Yes.
It:
t:5
iif
m
If
LOUTS \V. COLTTLEE of Winnipeg, Barri.ster, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows :—
JJy Judge MrDnnald :
31910. Do you hold any otHcial position ? — T command tlie Field ISattery heie. I
have held (jovernnient otHces here, (juite a number of them.
.■$1911. Mow long have you resided in thi.s city ? — I have been here about 1 1 years.
319r2. Ila\e you Ix'en connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway Comi)any? -
I had some e.xjjerience in the portion of the province east of here at the time of the
dispute with the Province of Ontario. T had then jurisdiction in that district which
■was called Section 15, and Section !•'), and of course most of the prosecutions in that
district were respecting the liipior traffic, and 1 wsus Deputy Attorne^y General foi' the
Province (jf Manitoba.
31913. Was there any license law in force down there at that time ? — No, Avith the
exception of the Public Works Act.
31911. That Act you sought to enforce, I believe? -We were endeavoui'ing to
enforce that Act in the inniicdiate \icinity (<f the railway. At that time we wei'e under
the jurisdiction of the Province ot Manitoba, and we sought to enforce our own laws
and to issue liccn.ses. Tltere were difficulties about issuing licenses within the locality
covered by the Public Works Act, *vhich was a cpiarter of a mile each way from the
track.
3191."). Mid you succeed in issuing licenses? — 1 do not think we did. We liad no
opportunity of testing our own License Act, and of course there was absolute prohil)ition
under the Public Works Act for a ipiarter of a mile on eaci'. side of tiie track.
3191G. And beyond that? — There were practically no f ettlenients whatever. The
whole of the pojiulation of that district, with the exception of .some Uind)ering camps at
Lake Francis and Hainy Hiver, was within the (|uartc;-inile limit.
31917. Did you have any difficulty in enforcing the Act and keeping liquor from
the peoph;? We had gi'eat dilKculty, and smuggling was carried on from the north-west
angle of Minnesota, which was the great smuggling point, and liquor was brought from
there to the district in the vicinity of the Lake of the Woods.
3191S. In what kinds of vessels was it brought? -It was brought in almost every
conceivable way. It was brought in eggs. The contents of eggs were blown out, and
they were filled with cheap whisky. It was also brought in coal oil cans, but that
which was brought in this way was not equal to the (piantities that came over the line of
the Canadian Pacific Uailway on hand cai's.
31919. Then it was practically impossible to keep liquor fi'om coming along the
line? — We occasionally g(.it a case against ofi'enders.
31920. Have you youi'self observed the working of prohibition in any othi'r section
of the country .' I cannot say that T have. I have noticed the effect of the law in
several local option ])laces.
31921. 1 believe you formeily i'((sided at Mull, where there was a license law in
force ? — In (he Couniy of Ottawa .some steps were taken to introduce the Scott Act, but
Patrick Lawlkk.
88
coll
stii
liii:
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
«9
-;.
Ij^H
1
■hI
-^
^R
j^n
i
^H
>
flD
1 (111 not recollect any place in wliidi it was ever passed : I knuw that it was in force at
one time in Pontiac, but that was ([uite a while a^'o. Of cmii'se prohibition is in force
in the State of Maine.
•■U!)2"J. Have you ever' been there ? — Yes, very freciuently in the sununer months.
IH'.tL'.S. How was the law oijserved there? -It was practically not oi)ser\ccl.
;U924. Were you able to net li([Uor .' — -I had no ditKculty about ;fettin!; li(|Uor,
except that 1 had Ui yo down to the cellar for it : but in th(> hotels, you had not (>vimi to
do that.
;ni)25. Have you had any experience in the North-west Teiritorii-s .' \'ery little.
r have, of course, been in the Xoi'th-west 'Perritoi'ies.
;$1'J2(). In what part have you been ?- I have been in the eastern |)ar!. I lia\e
never been there sutHciently lon.t; to enable me to express an opinion ; in fact. I am not
competent to express an opinion in re^'ard to the workin.u; of thai law.
.319l'7. Have you considered ihe (juestion of prohibition / 1 cannot say that T have
studied the (piestion of ))rohibition as it is j;'enei'a.lly understood.
.'{192S. I mean the pi'ohibition of the manufacture, importation and sale of li(|uor?
— C^uite so.
."UD^'J. .Judging from your experience in the cases you have spoken of, do you con-
sider it woulfl be feasible to enforce .such ca law? — T do not think it would be possible to
enforce such a law, prohibiting tlie sale, unless the maiuifacture and importation were
also prohibited, and that, I suppose, would not be possii)le with our boundary. ^'ou
inii;lit |)rohibit tlie manufacture to a larm' extent, but our boundai'y is so exteusisc 1 am
cei'tain there would be snmg^din",'.
3iy.'?0. Were there any illicit stills in the North-west Territories? I am not certain
about there i)einfi any there ; we formerly had them in the County of Ottawa.
.■{1!);U. What articles did they u.se in making; the li(|Uor? -They Ljenerally used
potatoes.
.■ni)32. We found in the Province of Quebec that the illicit stills larsi;ely used
molasses : was that also used in Ottawa? — Stills were found in which the inspectors said
molasses had been used.
Ii
it
)f
ALEXANDER A. AlJiD, of Winnipeg, Clerk (.f the Police Coui't, on being duly
sworn, (lepo.se(l as follows : —
Jii/ Ji((h]i' McDoimhl :
.'H93.'5. How long have you resided in Winnipeg? Nearly 11 years.
31934. How long have you been Clerk of tlie Police Court'?— A little over 10
years.
319.3.^. Did you come from one of the other pro\ inces ? — I came from ' hitario.
3193(). What jiart of Ontario? -In tli(> vicinity of Cobourg.
.31937. Was a prohibitory enactment in force there .'—The Scott Act has been in
force there for some time.
31935. How did you (ind it work there? It did not work nciv well.
319.39. That would be in the C'ountics of Nortlunnberliuid and Diirham .' ^^■s.
31910. Then you did not find it a success/ -No.
31911. (t was not successfully (!nforced, J suppose '. It was not enforced, and there
was no machinery with whicii to enforce it.
3191'2. Have you seen pi'ohibition in forces in any other country .' -No.
31943. The Conmiission hail evidence from the I'olice .Magistrate in regard to the
city police court, and he told the Commissioners that the persons chaigiul with drunken-
ness ax'eraged about two a day for the business days of the court. Do you agree with
him in that statement ? -That would l)e for the total days in the year ; you could not
consider it for business days, because there aredrunkai'ds on Sunday. The lai'gc propor-
tion of the drunkards are repeaters.
89
'tj! 1
1
I I
i !■
if
3:
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
311)44. Are there more convictions than indivitUials ? — Yes.
31945. Have you many known iui the class of repeaters, on Sunday? — I suppose
there are al)out 15.
31!)46. Have you any tliat repeat very often ? — There are some.
31'J47. .Tu(lj;in.<; from your experience with sucli cases, do you think a better system
to adopt would he to keep on the present system of (h'alinj; with these pe()j)le, or to lock
them up in some institution for a certain lenj^thof time? — I think it would be better to
place them in some institution for a time.
31!)4S. Do you mean an asylum ? Yes.
3194!*. Do you find these terms of imprisonment have any reformative effect? — I
think not.
31 950. Can you state the number of persons convicted last year for drunkenness ? —
About 5G0.
31951. How many other cases were tried in the court ?— About 1 ,2G0 cases were tried.
31952. Were tliere any of tlie otlier cases attributable to drunkenness?— Some of
tliem.
31953. Do you mean assaults and offences of tliat kind ? — I do not remember a.ssaults,
but I remember some larceny cases were attributed to drunkenness.
31954. From your ofticial experience, are you able to su<;gest any amendment in
the law respecting tlie sale of intoxicating liquor? — I liave not considered the question.
liy liev. Dr. Mc.Leod :
31955. Have you a statement of the nundier of arrests for drunkenness for this
year, I mean the year ending .'iOth September, 1892? — I do not remember the figures.
31956. Was tliere any increase or decrease of cases? — There was an increase in
the total number of cases, l)ut I tiiink a decrease in the cases of drunkenness.
31957. Df> you have many cases of juvenile offenders? Very few.
31958. Are you able to say wlietlier any proportion of tlie thefts, cases of vagrancy
and offences by cliildron are attributable, if not to the drinking of the persons tliem-
selves, to tlie drinking of j)arents or guardians ? Some cases of petty larceny and some
other cases are atti'ibutable to that cause, and also some cases of vagrancy. Some of
these jieople do nothing but beg, and when they obtain alms tiiey spend the money on
drink. Those cases are attributable to tlie use of li([uor.
31959. Leaving the diuiiks aside altogether: of the other ca.ses that come before
your court, are you in a position to .say wiicther any proportion of them are directly or
indirectly attributable to the drink habit and to the drink trade? — I can say that some
of them are.
31960. What proportion : do you think 25 per cent? — No, T do not think so. In
my opinion, F would lie safe in saying 10 per cent of them.
31961. Of all ofi'ences, otlier than drunkenness, that come before you, how many of
the ort'enders are diunkards ? — It is a hard matter for me to tell.
31962. Would 10 per cent of them be drunkards? — I could not form an o[)inion.
There are many case, of breaches of the by-laws, and of course I know nf)tliing of the
habits of the peoph-.
31963. <)f all the offences that come before you, are the offenders made up of
drinkers largely ?- They are about 50 per cent.
31964. Then about half the cases you have to deal with are for drunkenness? — Yes.
Hi
par
ilr
U
do
Alexandkh a. .\I1)U.
'90
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
CHARLES J. lillOWN, of Winnipeg, on Ijeing duly ssvorn, deposed as f(jllo\v.s : —
By Judge McDounttl :
31965. Wliat is your Inusiness or oocupation ? -I am City Clerk, of Winnipeg.
;iiy6G. How long liave you resided here? 20 years.
31',)67. Did you eonie from one of tlie otiiei- provinces .'- I came fiom Kingslon.
.'Ul)68. How long have you been City Clerk? ~A little over i) years.
311)01). Does Winnipeg ohtain any revenue from licenses? — It does.
31!)70. Can you tell what was the amountof tiio rexeinie last year .' -No, 1 cannot ;
that is outside of n;y department. Mr. Currie is the Comptroller ; the money does not
j)ass through my hand.s.
31!)71. Then you do not know what sum was accounted for
amount was .sometliing like .■^34,000.
311)7l!. 1 see hy a pa])er handed to me, which appears to he
year ending Aj)ril, 18!)3, the estin>ated revenue, otiier than
hotel licenses, ii?C,000 ; restaurants, $1,750; wholesale li(|uoi', !?1,S00, out of a total
revenue received for licenses of 819,190. That is an oflicial statement, I sui)pose? —
Yes, that is the estimate that was adopted.
31973. Have you, as a citizen of Winnipeg, observed the working of tlie license
law: is it satisfactory? 1 liave not given any attention to it. In fact, lam very little
in town, and I spend vei'y little of my time when 1 am in town outside of the otlice. I
do not go round, and I know very little about it.
?-~Krom all sources tlui
iissessmentfor the fiscal
taxation, is as follows :
■111
COLIN TNKvSTKU of Kiklonan, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows:--
By Judge ^fc Donald :
31974. For what district are you Sheriff? — I am Sheriff of the Hastern .ludicial
District of Manitoba.
31975. How long have you held the pociition ? - - 1 have been Sheriff since 187<).
31976. Are you a native of the province ! — I am.
31977. So your memory goes back to the days befoi'e the province became a ])art
of the Canadian Confederacy. What system was in force in the old days, before this
province became part of the Confederacy, in regard to the sale of li<|uoi-/ There was a
license law. It was managed by the Hudson Hay Company and by the Council of
Assiniboia.
31978. By whose authority was the Council itself appointed? — By authority of the
Hudson Bay Company.
31979. Was it made up principally of Hudson Bay factors and otlicers of the Com-
pany ? - No.
31980. Then was it chiefly composed of people drawn from outside? — Yes, chiefly.
31981. Were you one of the Council? No, but my father was.
31982. Did the Council have a regular system of licenses at that time? — Yes.
31983. Was the number limited? — I do not think the nundjer was limited, but I
do not recollect.
31984. Was the license fee large ? — Yes,
31985. Dft you reniendier the amount? — I forget the amount of the fee.
31986. Was there any limit as to the kind of li(|uor that should be sold, or was it
both spirituous and fermented? — It was both.
31987. Was there any limit as to the people to whom it should be .sold ?--I could
not sa/ as tf) that. I do not know whether Indians were allowed to buy it or not.
31988. Was there any limit as to hours of sale ?- Yes.
31989. What was the limit? — I do not know.
31990. Was sale allowed to go on during Sunday ? No, not on Sunday,
91
1
ill
i
'(: I
f
liiquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'U{)i)l. Did tliat law jirevail over tlie whole of the Hudson Bay Country? — Only
«ivei- the IJisti'ict of Assiuiiioia, within a radius of ')0 miles from Fort (Jarry.
;51'Ji)'_'. Then you ha\<' no ree(jl lection as to wiiether then; was much drinkinj^ in
those ilays? — I may say that drinking wius more ♦'ishionable in th<tse days than it
is now.
.■{ll)i>;{. Were the social habits of the people different ? -Yes.
.■51i>'.)l. r suppose li(|uor was used nioi'e by the people then than it is now f No, I
do not think so : l)ut it was used more over the social board than it is now, at meals
80, and so on.
;Jl!)l(i). Was wii\e used at meals? -Very little : only by the higher classes.
31'J'Jl). When you spoke of the social board, I su]>poseyou meant that when friends
would call on one another li(|uor would be pi'oduced? — Yes.
.'UD'JT. Was there much drinking at the taverns in those days? — There was very
little drinking at ttiverns.
.'51 '.IDS. Were there occasional waysi<le taverns ?— There wei'e.
."HOOD. ] suppose in those days they were regular stopping places for travellers?
—Yes.
;J2000. Could p<!ople who kept these taverns obtain licenses from the Council of
Assiniboia? — Yes.
32001. Do you know whethei- thei'e was much unlawful sale without licenses in
those days? — I could not say.
."52002. |)o you rememliei- what kinds of liquors weiv used? - Chietly Hudsons Bay
rum and whisky imported from the I'. S., and beer manufactured here.
;5200.'5. Then there was a brewery liere in those ilays? — Yes.
32004. Dfies that brewery still exist ? — The building is standing, but tne business
went years ago.
32005. Whau kind of beer was made? — lam afraid that it was a very inferior
article.
32006. Was the rum of which you spoke Hudsons Bay Jamaica spirits ? — They
had two kinds, Jamaica and Demerara. Demerara was the better kind.
32007. You have sjjoken of the ((uantity u.sed being more, and there being more
drinking then than now ? — ^It was considered more fashionable at that time ; of course,
there is a larger population in the country than there was then.
32008. Was there much drinking in those days, in your opinio" (■ — I could not say.
3200!). Comparing that time with the present time and allowing for the difference
in population, would you say that there were more drinking |)eople ? — I ilo not think
so.
32010. W'hen Manitoba became a province of the Dominion, what law was in force
at first? — There was a Provincial License Livw, but it was a copy of the old Assiniboia
law.
3201 1. It was practically adopted, I suppose, as the provincial law? — Yes.
32012. Have you, so far as your observation goes, found the present lic^ense law
\ery well observed? — I have not given particular attention to it, but I think it is very
well observed.
32013. How many miles outside of the city do you reside ?^Half a mile outside of
the city limits.
32014. Then, of coui'se, you see a go(Kl deal of the city'f — Yes. I am in the city
every day.
32015. f)f course in discharging your duties as Sheriff, you have to deal with both
civic and criminal cases .' — Chiefly with civil cases.
3201(5. Of course you have charge of the criminals se!it to the penitentiary? — I
have to convey them there.*
32017. Have you control of the jail I — Nominally, 1 am at the head, but that is all.
320 IH. In the discharge of your otiicial duties, do you find that a proportion, and
if so how large a proportion, of the business that comes before you is in connt;ction with
the lit[uor traffic? For instance you have executions, 1 suppose, on which you have to
levy fur debt ?--Yes.
CoLlN InKSTEK.
92
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;5l!019. How <l(i you find tho liuhits f)f those people ii;,'iiinst whom those e.xeeutions
are issued ?--Of those a^^aiiist wlioiii executions are issued, the druiii<ards aiv tiie \ei'y
smallest jn'oportioii ; of coui-se, it is a purely civil proceeding;.
."1:2020. Are you able to form an opinion as to whether their inability to pay their
debts has been caused by the use of intoxicating,' li(|Uor (—In a very small proportion of
cases has it been caused by di-ink. 1 may explain that T have nothini; to do with the
executions of the County Court, which would most likely deal with ])eople who do not
prty their debts throuj^h drunkenness.
."52021. With your Ion;,' expei'ience and your loiij; I'esidence in this country, can you
make any sugj^estions to the Connnission as to improvements in the law in any resjiect ?
— I cannot.
32022. Have you considered the question of <{eneral prohibition? -I ha\i' not
made a sufticient study of the (juestion to be able to f^h^^^ an opiiiion on it.
."5202.'5. Have you seen tho working of a |)rohibitory law any where ,' No, I have
not.
."i2024. .Supposing a general prohibitory law were enacted by tho Dondnion Parlia-
ment, prohibiting the manufacture, importation and sale of li([Uor for beverage purposes,
would you consider it right that remuneration be made to the brewers and distillers for
loss of plant .' 1 think so.
Jiy Rev. Dr. McLeod: ^
."52025. Do you think if theie was a general prohibitory law, well enforced, it would
pnwluce Ijenefieial effects ? — I think it would.
Bif Judge McDonald :
."52026. Have you formed an opinii)n as to whether such a law could be {)i'actically
enforced? — f think it could be enforced only with dangerous conseijuences, because it
would lead to smuggling.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
."52027. Do you think snmggling would be more serious in its efi'ects than the (h'ink
trade itself?— I could not say.
By Judge McDomdd ;
:5202f<. Do [ understand that you think li(iuor would be smuggled into tliis coun-
try ?— Yes.
.'52029. And the people would have licjuor at any rate? — Yes, at any rate.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod:
;520."50. Do you think that the smuggling which would result from prohibition
w<iul(l be more serious to deal with than the liiiuur trade itsi'lf ? I think it would.
.'52031. Have you observed whether the drink trade has any serious effects on the
counnunity I AV^Iicm drink is used to excess, I think it has.
;520.'52. Do you believe that there are evil effects produced by it ? —1 do not think so.
.■520I5."5. Do you believe that the trade is a help to the community ? — Tiiat I could
not say.
;520."5I. I think you have said that drinking is less fashion.ible than formei'ly : why
is it less fashionable?- V think it is so. owing to public opinion.
15203"). And do you believe that change in public opinion is I'eally a sign of imjn'ove-
ment ? — I think it is.
."520."5f). Do you think the drink trade is regarded with the same favour as it was
regarded in former years '. — It is not.
.52037. Do you think it is a good thing that it is not regarded with the same
favour? T think it is.
w
i tv
■ \v\
93
f 'i
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
HENHY
follows :
M. DUUM.VroND, of Winnipeg, on licinj,' duly sworn, (lepost'd as
' !1
n
i:
ISif Jiiihji' MfDiiiKild :
.'120.SS. Jlow long liiive you it-sided in Winnipeg? - Ovcf l'O yeiirs.
;5"_'O.S9. Whiit is your jiresont position ? — Assistant llt'ceix ci' (Jcneral, Dominion
Auditor and Managci- Dominion Savings IJank.
."{liOlO. Now long have you held youi' picscnt position / I .'i or 14 yi'Hi's.
;5:^(>H. I)i<i you comt^ formci'ly from tlits Province of Oiitaiio .' - \%'s.
.'52042. Ha\t' you any acipiaintancf witli the working of tlits liipior law of that pro-
vince? — Not particulaily.
320H5. Have you had any olllcial connection with the law there? — Norie wliatev ar.
.'52044. ]>) you know anything as to the woi'king of tlu^ revenue law in connection
with it? — For ten years the customs receipts came through my hands, Init not sincf that
time.
.'5204.">. You do not have anything to do with the revenue as Assistant Receiver
General ? — No, notliing but the issue and redemption of Dominion money.
.'52040. Have you had any experience of the working of a prohibitory law at any
time?- No.
.'52047. Have yriu evei- lived in a ])rohibitory town? — No ; T have been so long here.
3204S. Dave you been in the North-west Territories ?- -No.
.'52049. Ha\e you studied the <[uestion of prohiI)ition? -Not seriously.
32050. Supposing a prohibitory law to be passed, doing away with the importation,
manufactui'e and sale of li(|Uor for bevei'age purposes, do you think it right and j)roper that
brewers and distillers should be recouped for the loss of their plant I — 1 tiiink tliey should.
Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
32001. Wliy would you compensate brewers and distillers?-— Tlu'y have a legalized
business, and of course, if it is taken away from them, they should be compensated.
320.")2. It is legalized, we undei-itanil, from year to year, by reason of the license
they obtain? I suppose it is.
.■520").'5. If tiie trade was abolished, why should they have any claim on the public
funds beyond tlie claim of other men whose business would b(! aft'ected by ordinary
events? I think it would be e(|uivalent to doing away with a business and leaving the
jieople engaged in it without any I'ecompense.
320.")4. Does it not occur to you, in considering the (]uestion of these other indi-
viduals, that the rule has been not to give any compensation in case of a change in the
tariff? — In the majority of ca.ses such has been the case.
JOHN W. STFTr)X, of Winnipeg, m\ being <luly sworn, disposed as follows ; — -
Jijj Judge McDonald :
."520").''). What is your occupation or calling? — At present I am Inspectrjr of public
institutions in the province -Asylums and Prisons.
320.")t). Are you appointed by the Provincial Government ? — Yes.
320.")7. How long have you resided in Manitoba? — 18 years.
.'520.')S. |)id you come from one of the other pi'ovinces ? -I came, from Ontario.
320."}9. How long have you occupied your pi'esent position ? —Only one year.
320(50. What institutions do you inspect ? — Lunatic asylmns, aiul the Home for
Incurables and the Deaf and Dumb Asylum, and all the prisons.
320G1. In the whole province ? — -Y'es.
Henuy M. Dkummoni).
94
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Jijf R'l: Of. McLi„,l :
.■<20()'J. Is your appDintiiioiit ii ]iri)viiiciitl unc .' -Yt's.
."S^'OCiiJ. As Iiispectdi' of pi'isons you iiwikt' ])t'riiMlii')il visits, f supiiosc (—Yes.
.'J'J()t)4. How tV<M|Ufiitly do you visit these institutions f- As often as four times a
venr, sometimes \ery niueh more fi'ei|uently on special oeciisiiitis ; hut of euurse t liose
\isits aie irremilarly made.
."il-'l )(>•"). Wiiat are your (hities .' To tind out iiow the |ii'isons are coiidueted in e\ery
]>artieular, how the prisons are taken care of, whether tiie institutions are mainlaine<i in
j)ropei' or(h'r, liow the prisoners are employed, ant! evei'vthin;,' of that kind.
.Sl.'(J()(J. I)oes it come witldn your knowledj^e to ascertain the causes of crime as
re^'anls the pi-isoncrs '. it does not. It come.- within my knowledge, hut in my report
is more a matter of ^generalization than of detail.
'.Vl()W)ii. Have you, as a matter of fact, looked into the cuuses of prisoners liciny in
tho.se prisons? - I liave to a certain extent.
320(17. What has hecMi the result of your ohservation and examination? — In what
way 1
320f)f<. [ should like to j^et at this point ; in the first place, how many prisons have
you in Maiutoha? — Thri-e, Kastern, Central and Western, one in each judicial disti'ict.
;5:iUli!). How many ]irisoners are there in each jjrison .' There are ahout '_'() here, ")
at Portaj;e la Prairie, and 7 at Bi'andon, .'ii' all tojfether.
•'52070. Would it he possihle for you to say how many of those pei-sons are in
prison for crimes tliat ai'e traceahle, ilii'ectly or indii'ectly, to the drink habit I My last
report shows somethinj^ over ")0 per cent as heinj,' due directly to the drink hahit, so far
as information could he obtained, and a larj^e number, of course, indirectly.
."52071. So you think 50 per cent of the cases are dii'ectly traceable to the drink
habit? — Yes, I have no doubt that the evidence will beai' me out in makini; thaf state-
ment.
.'52072. And a proportion of the (ither half are indirectly traceable to drink ? —
Yes.
.'5207.'5. I understand ytai also visit the a.syluins ? — Yes.
.'52074. Are there many insane persons in Maiutoba a.«ylums? There are l.'5C in
Selkirk and 'i(S in IJrandon — we have two Provincial Asylums ; and thei'e are i^O or
more in the Home for Incurables.
3207.5. Are you alile to say whether the percentage of the insane to be taken cai'e
of by the province has increased or decreased, and whether any numljer of the insane
cases are due, dii'ectly or indirectly, to drink ]-\ lia\-e ;,'iven this matter close observa-
tion, and I am a little disappointed in the results of my obsei'vations. I can .i,'i\e the
facts and the returns in connection with them. Those cases that are directly traceable
to litjuoi", that is so far as my opinion goes, do not make moi'e than •'"> per cent.
.'5207(). That is drunkenness on their own part? — Ye.s.
32077. The indirect cases are ditlicult to ol)tain ? - Neai ly all of thiMu are from
the old countiy or from Ontai-io or are foreigners, and, as I have jiointed out, nearly all
of them are foreigners whose histories cannot i)e traced. The Superintendent has. uruli'i'
my insti'uction.s, prepared a history in regai'd to this vei'y ]ioint, so that we would lie
able to arrive at a decision on the matter, but the Commissioners are aware how ditlicult
it is to obtain the requisite information.
.'5207<~'. Th(?n it is ditlicult to obtain those particulars from the patients themselves?
—-The facts is that thret?-fourths I think f would be safe in stating that percentage
of the cases we lij've are hereditary, but the direct cause is no doulit attributable to
licpior. But, as I have already stated, it is impossible to give to the Conuni.ssion further
information than I have ah'eady given.
32079. Y'^ou ai'e having, T believe, some ditHcult}' in regard to the superintendence
of the lunatic asylums? I am not aware of it.
.'52080. So far as you are aware the I'eturns show a comparative small percentage of
cases traceable to drink, but some of tiie Superintendents say, and they may be regarded
as experts, that the predisposing cause in a lai'ge majority of cases is alcohol ? The
Superintendent says that to me.
95
u
i
r;
w.
Liquor Trattic — Munitolm.
IV.'OSI, hues tlic Mcdif.il Sii|n'riiilcn(l<'nt live lit-re I No, lit' lives •_'.'? mil's away.
.'J'JUS'-'. Art' tlici'c many | i)l<' in tlic Jloiiic t"i»r hicuralilcs f 'i'lii'i't- arc alxait "lO
there.
2'_'()S.'i. 1)() yiiii kiiiiw anytliiii;; nt' tiifir lii.storics f Tlicrt' are several lliere tVnm
iiieohol as a flii'eet cause. S<»iiie who are ahh' to pay for their iiiaiiiteiiaiice are, |iut
there, hut the j.'rcater |>nrticin of the imnates arc iioii-payinj;, and the reason for their
nonpayin;; is the tact that their parents have been indicted for the excessive use of
jitjuor.
."(•JOSI. So you think that that i)ul)lic char^re is in part traceable to drink .' It is
vei'v larf^ely trai-cahlc to drink.
.^^OM"). \\'hat otiiei- institutions ha\e ytiu in chai'fie ; havc^ you the Deaf and Dumh
Hchools and Hospitals ! I havi; all the hos])itals in the j)rovince under my ciiarj,'c.
.SliOSC). Are theie several of them I - There are foui'.
H:i(J87. In the cases in the hospitals, are you ahle to say whethei' any percentaj^e of
the cases that come into the hospitals are cases traceable to di-ink / — Of course, I do not
know whethei- you refer to accidents or diseases. I (h» not think we have any reports
tliat would furnish positive knowled;;*) of that sul»jeet, because! the j)atients are there
only foi' one. two or three weeks, and no general history is taken of them. I am
President of one of the Hospital Hoards, and more than half of the non-j)ayin<; patii^nts
durinj; last year wei'c admitted i)eeause of the influence of li(|Uor on themselves and on
theii- families. I think it is .safe to say tliat the non-fiayuig patients in other hospitals
are «(uite as ^^reat in nundier.
."VJOHH. I understand that vou ha\c been a rc-idi it of this city foi' a lonj,' time '/—
Yes.
.'iL'ljS'.). Ilax'c thci'e been any chany;es in the drinkinj,' habit.s of the people during
the last IS years of your resiihuice ,' - A^'ry j{reat.
.SiiU'.tl). Thei-e is less drinkinjj; than tiiere was formerly '? — I think there is h'ss in
propf>rtion to the population.
;5:iO'.(l. Is there a stronj^ temperance sentiment in this cctnnnunity ?— I think .so, I
have no doubt about it.
;5l!U'.)L'. How do you rejfard the plebiscite expression of opinion in favour of Prohibi-
tion : was it the i!X|)i'ession of the wishes of the people in the way they ni>^fint to exjiress
tlieniselxcs ? — It would be a libel on the people to .say anything else. They were .sober
anil intelligent people who voted.
.Sl'O'.K!. Then you <Io not think they did it as a jok.' ?- No, they have had othei-
op])oi't unities of votini; on the cpiestion and they liave votetl in the same way.
;{l'()1(4. Wliat weie those oppoitunities /--The Scott Act has been carried in this
Pro\ince, in three-(|uarters of it, in all the counties except the district of Winnipcf,'.
•S'JU!*"). Why did it not i;o into operation ? — liecause there was some flaw in the
Act, in consciiucnce of which it was declared to be iinalid.
."JL'O'Jd. So the peoj)lc never had the chance of seeing whether it could be enfoi'ced
or not ? — No, they nevei- had the chance. They started to enforce the law, and the ease
Went to the Sujireme t'oui't, and tin; Court threw it out.
.■{•JU'.tT. Js tiiere not a considerable (lortion of the territory under local ojition
now .'- Yes, a very large amount.
.Sl'OltS. Have you observed how that pi'ohibition works/ I think it has worked
verv well. It is practically all over the province, and it seems to me there is no vei'v
great dithculty in carrying out prohibition, except in towns, es|)ecially in towns nearthe
railway, where licpior can be snuiggled in. I know we have a jail in one of the districts
that is under jirohibition, in which we have no prisoners and no jailer, and it does not
pay to keep u]) tlui prison.
.■{li09U. Do you attribute that to the pi'ohibition of the drink trattic? — 1 attribute
it more largely to the fa( i tliat there is no litjuor to be had tliere.
•'{lilOO. \k) ytai think that if a prohibitory law were in force in Manitoba, it could
be fairly enforced/ — It could be enforceil just as well as the license law is enforced now,
in fait r am inclined to think a little better.
.'i^lOl. Do you know anytliing about the prohibitory law in the North-west
Territf>ries ? — I do not ; practically T know nothing about it.
John W. Sikton.
96
'>'",
67 "Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
KlilO'-'. r jtresoiiH' you have lic'-l (litrtM'ciit ntlicial positions in this I'rovincc ,' — Y«'S.
."ll'lO;!. What positions liavn yon lii-ld / -I was Manistiatf tor a miinlxT of years, I
was a in»'nil)er of tJic Local Housf, I was SjH-akfr of the Lical House ontf session. I
ha«l a great many fasfs Ix'forc nic as .Maj^isti'atc dui'iri;,' four years. I lia\t' not lieeii
oceupied as such sinee then, hut durin;,' the tinu? I was .Ma;,'istrate I had a j^reat many
east's coniin^ l)efi«r€' me. I lived at Selkirk at that tinu', I came here in connection Ik it Ik
the construction of the C. P. H.
■'i21U4. In what position ?— As contractor. I had contract No. 11, for laying "ti miles
east of Selkirk.
;?:ilOo. The Connnissionors have lieeu told that it is inipossihle to enforce i)rolnl)itioii
here J — I should like to tell the Connnissi(»n about |>rohil>ition and the possihility of
enforcing it. 1 went there, and had 7C miles of roail under my jurisdiction up to the
lime of its c()mj>k"tion. I had authority under the Public Works Act to prevent the
suJe of li(juor on that track. I decitled that in my own interest, as well as in the interest
of the men, I would endeavour to carry out that law. During those four years there
never was any liquor .sold on that contract —I .say that emj>hatically. Liquor came in
it is true, but it did not get the chance of being sold except to one man each time. I
found it quite pw.ssible tf) enforce the Act. [ could e.\plain a few matteis in connection
with the reason why it was not enforced legally. There were parties who wanted to sell
ftad traile there. It was stated that the Act would not be enforced, but .several men
were brought up And half a dozen men escaped. That manner of enforcing the law could
not continue, so more rigid measures were requisite. The peopU^ employed on my section
well knew that 1 deaired to enforce the law, and that I would do so.
3l'106. I suppo.se that when they knew you were in earnest, the sale ceased ,'^ I
asted the a.ssistance of Mr. Davis, who said that the only assistance I could have would
be live constables, but he said at the same time that he would endeavour to assist me to
carry out the law. Afterwards he sent me a connnunication, and I found the respon.si-
bility rested on myself, and after that I had no trouble.
.■J2107. Did yon need mon,' constables ?— I had no constable on the work, except a
niiui who acted as foreman. I had one of the engineers appointed as Magistrate by the
(}ov<»rnor of Keewatin, Honourable Mr. Morris, but no case came befoi'e him.
.■J2108. So one constable succeeded in enforcing the law ? — I never had a case t;tken
l)efore the Magistrate. I had two men brought in, but I let them both g(», I did not tine
them, but I obtained a promise from them that they would never Im found engaged in
the business again, which pi'omi.ses they both kept. One is in this country to-day.
."{2109. Have you any knowledge of prohibition in any other place? You have
knowledge, I believe, of prohibition in Manitoba in earlier days? — I lived foi- sometime
in Southern California and was in two prohibition towns : one with 10,000 inhabitants
near Los Angeles, Pasadena, where I was for a considerable time.
•■^21 10. And the other was what f — Riverside.
■■^21 1 1. How far are they from each othei' ? About 40 miles.
.'52112. From youv observation, was prohibition enforced tliei'e .' -1 think it was the
most thorough and successful thing I ever knew. They hiul it in Pasadena. There was
one constable there, and he was also night watchman and health inspector and held two
or three other ottlces.
.'52113. And did he succeed in enforcing the law? -He told nie he had no ti'oublo.
He told me they would come down from Ijos Angeles drunk, they would get out of the
train aiul they would be put into the lock up. It is 10 miles from Los Angeles and
nearly GOO miles south of San Francisco.
.'$2114. From yt>ur experience and observation, you believe that prohibition is
possible of enfoi'cement ? — I do not think there is any <loul)t about it to a certain extent.
I flo not believe any law can be enforced thoroughly, but a law can be an educator as
well as a restrainer.
.'$211.'). Is the law an educator? — I do not think there in any doubt about it.
.'521 It). You believe that the law is a restrainer and prohibitor of evil, and educates
people against that evil ? — The laws are ill-advised, unless they educate in that way.
.'$21 17. Have you thought as t<i the propriety of granting compensation to biewers
and distillers in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law ? — Yes.
1
I
m
21 7**
97
m
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
If*"
'.\'2\ \l*. Wluil (In yiiu think iilMUit it ! So t'lii- iis timt is cDiif't'iTir'd, I think it shoulil
Ih' iniulf II niiittiT of t'X|M'ilicncy rathf-r thim id' ri>,'ht.
.■*2I lit. An to " li^'ht " ; wluit is your vit'w iilxnit tliiit ? I iim not sun- liiit we hiivn
a i'i;,'lit to pay them sonn'thin>,'.
g .'JlJI-'U. VVIiat is till' point as to the "exjtediency"? -I think it wouhl Im* fxpt'diont
to (In HO.
.'{■Jl'il. Ih llicic any oiIhm- vifw that is worthy of ronsidoi'tttion/ -It in in my
ojiinion a niatlci' to )>(> scttlfd )>y the jNipular \(>t<>.
.^■JIl'L'. ho y(ni think it would pay tin- country to ctuict a ){enofal proliihitory law,
it' as a ronditioii of that law, compensation should Im- ^'ranted to l)r('wci-s and distillers ,'
— -f do not think there is any douht aUuit it. I have fhouj^ht ovtM' the subject a great
deal and f cei'tainly think it would l>e a \eiT yreat iienefit.
.'{I'l'JU. Have you f,'iven any consideration to the I'evenue side of the (juestion / -
We derive a larj^e rexcnue from the sale of liipiors anil alnait !?10,OUU.O(*'' n Custom
<lutieH and iCxcise fees.
.'{^I'-'l. Have you yiven consideration to that jihaso of the ,i<'Ot '? — Yes, and F
liave also i^iveii tliougiit as to where we jfet the revenue. I •• .ound that f^enei'ally
the poorei' portion of the population have to pay it.
.'$!.' 1 1'."). 'rhrou;,'h the liipior tiade .' —Tiirou;;h the hands of the men in that trade;
noliody else can pay it.
.■JJI2t). Suppose that the trade was prohibited and there was lost to the Kedei'al
Government no less than 810,000,000 do you think the country could sustain that loss?
— I think, with Sir Alexander (Jalt, in a temperance speech which lu; made some years
ago, that any (iovei'nnient that would have the coui'a;L(e to do away with liijuor would
have no ti'ouhle in raisin;; the revenue. That was his idea.
32 127. That was when he was Finance Minister? - I think at that time.
.'i'jrjH. Have not other Finance Ministers stated .something of the same thing? —
The present Finance Minister, Mr. Foster, and Sir Leonard Tilley ? — Sir Al(\\aiider
Gait was strong on that point, aiul he never hesitated to .say that the revenue would
not sutler.
;{212U. I sup|)ose yim think thei'e would be a shock at the outset in con.se<juence of
such a very radical change being made. Do you believe that tinancial matters would
adjust themselves within a reasonable period ? — T do not see why they should not adjust
themselves. I remember tlieie was an Act j)assed by the British Parliament in 181 1, pro-
hiliiting the manufactui'e of liquor and raising the duties on licjuor in Ireland, and it will
be remembered that it did not atl'ect the revenue; in fact, it was then that the revenue
increased in other branches, so that there was not a dimiimtion of one dollar. That is a
historical event that can be found in the history of the time. I do not see why a similar
result should not follow in the present ca.se.
32130. So the financial difficulty is not an insurmountable one. Do you believe
that a prohibitory law, faii'ly enforced, tliroughout the whole country, would promote
the moral standing of the country? — No doobt ubout it. Take the ])laces where it is in
force m)w ; take those [)laces T ha- e rne)>ri< led and the moral standing of the commu-
nities is high. Take the condition of .i.rt'i'irs right in our own Province and wheiever
the Act is enff)rced, we find the sara' '••i-.ellent condition, and there is no question but
that as the sentiment of the country has increa.sed in that direction, we have imjiroved
morally. We think we are the most moral and sober i)eople on this continent. We
think we can bear that out by statistics. We think there is no city of the same size so
sober as Winnipeg.
By Judge McDonald : ■
32131. Which do you think will be brought about first, the creation of Winnipeg
as the national capital or natioiuil {Prohibition? — -I think probably we will get to
natitmal prohibition first.
32132. When you .spoke of the sentiment of the province, did you mean temperance
sentiment or prohibition sentiment, or do you think one is alx>ut the same as the other ? —
They are very much the same, and also moral sentiment.
John W. Sii-ton.
98
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
to
:)'iUi-'<. Then you think ti-inpt'iiiiic*' .siMitiiiu-nt, |iri)liiliiti<iii ami iiinnil Hentiiiieiit,
art' iiitfi'clwiiiKciil'l*' ttTiiis? I tliiiik su.
.■|'JI.'U. Of ('((iifHi', you yoursi'lt' wiiuhl t'tivitur prolnhitioti / N'i'h.
.'tl'l-''"). I)<) yiiu think it iviuld 1)1' enforrcd ( I think it wuulii have ii pdwor limuj^lit
to Im'hi' iin it here thiit would t'lit'orce it iM'tlcr hiTc tliiin iitiywhci't' it liiis Imtii ti'icd v»'t.
.'VJi.'Ui. Do you nu'iin imywliore in the Dominion of Cuniidii f Yes, or any pjirt of
tlic United Stiites, dii iicoount of our hn-iition. We huvc n, hirjje territorv iind so our
location is favoui'al)h.>.
•'$'_'|.'{7. Do you mean to say tiuil the o|i|)ortunities iii'e hetter in tiiis jii'Mvince lluin
in any other ]iart of Canada / t)r do you mean to say that Canada has hetler o|i|iurtu-
iiities than any otiiei- country in the worhl for )>rMhil)ition, '••■.:1 (hat Manitoba is the he.st
|iart of Canada in tliat respect / 1 do not know tliat I would say that.
.'{'Jl.'tJ^. Yofi have said that you consider prolnhit ion, fairly well enforced, would
hrinj; alMiut lienelicial results. What do you mean hy fairly well enforced ! I should
say the law was fairly well enfoi'ced if tht^ consumption of lii|uor wa.s redui'ed .say down
to 1(J per cent of what it is at present.
."{•J I .■{'.(. Do you know anythin;^ of the working of the Maint; Ijiw? — I ha\e spent
some time in Maine.
.■(■Jl \0. Do \ou moan In a proliihitory law such a law as the Maiiui l^aw t That is
aliuut what I mean.
."{•J in. Would you favour such a law for Manitoha/ -Yes, if I could ff-t it.
'•\l\i2. Are you aware that any resident of the Stfile of Maine may have all the
liijuor he pleases in his own cellar for his own use antl give it away to liis friends, hut
he must not .sell it or keep it for .sale ,' -Ye.s.
I{:il4.'{. That is the law you would favour ?- Yes, I would amend my answer to that
Bi/ Rev. Di\ McLeod :
.'52144. Would you chanj^e the Maine Law in that iv.spect ? — It would depend on
the con.sequences.
Jiij Jndijp McDoniild :
.■$214"). Do you know that Geiu'ral Neal J)ow in jj;ivin<; evidence to this Commi.ssion
stated that he would not attempt to elianf^e the law in that respect t I do not know
what would 1)<^ the conseijuenees of chanjfinfi the law.
.'$2146. He would like to do so prohahly, hut he tleclared it would be impossible to
do .so on account of jjublic sentiment? — That is what I mean, I could not .state the con-
sequences, but I would not charig(^ it for that reason.
.'52 147. Then we may take as your answer, that you would have a law prohibiting
people keeping liijUor in their hou.ses for beverage purposes, but if you could not get that
law, you would be willing to permit it to be used for domestic purposes, but not sohU —
That is my opinion exactly.
■■$214iS. We now come back to your phrase " fairly well enforced." lJ)o you think
it would be j)ossible to enforce such a law as Jiat which you wish to have enacted at
the j)resent time, which is a law to prevent the peoph' obtaiiung any alcoholic liquors
whatever? — No, I would not : I think expediency would make me beware on that point.
.S214y. As to your opinion that no liquor should be obtained for bevei-age pur-
poses? —In two sections of the province the people have already pa.ssed such a law, the
.Scott Act.
.'52150. We understand that you voted recently in Winnipeg, and that the people
declared very .strongly in favour of prohibition? — Yes.
.'$2151. Have any steps been adopted since that vote was taken, to bring into effect
a law that rested entirely with the people to adopt, the 8cott Act ? — No, we have not
taken any steps — it does not rest with us.
;521.">2. So the people would simply vote in favour of prohibition ?- -The people
would vote against the Scott Act.
.'52l").'5. Why? — Because it failed here before.
.'521.54. On what grounds did it fail? — -On a technical point ; I do not know exactly
w^liat it was.
|i|
I.
21— 7i
**
99
I 11
•^i'-
V:]
!^!
I- !
.;■•
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
;<215o. Dill tile iM'ii|)li' t'viM' vdtc t(t repeal it ? — ^No, ynu I'luild not ijct a xote to
r('))i'iil it.
•Sl^lot). Tlieii leinjieriuicp sciitimt'iit wtis strongly in its fii\niii' iu'ie / — Yes.
•■<'_'ir)7. I)o vdu look (in a license law as a sin ! No.
^VJloS. You (ill nut go tliat tar? — It may i)ea sin to some people, but not to otiiers.
3'_'1 ^){). I meant to you '/ - It dejx'nds on circumstances. If you lusked wluit [ think
altout signing a man's a|)|)lication for a license, I woukl not say "yes." If it is a matter
reiiuiiing the cai'.ying out of the law, I siioukl not think I connnitted any sin by carry-
ing out the law.
32 1(50. I)oyou think it is a sin ti) have a license law ? We have had witnesses
Ijefore the Connnission who have looked upon lieen.se as a sin ; we have even had wit-
nesses who have declared that, as a choice l)etween the untrannnelled sale of litpior and
the license law, they woulil infinitely prefer the untrammelled sale of li(|Uor, because they
were not responsible for that sale. I would accept of nothing that would not tend to
rttluce the evil.
.'521(')1. Then if you could not get piohibition, you think it would be better to have a
license law rather than unti'annnelled sale? Yes. It was tried in Michigan, but was
not a success.
.'{2162. Do you know whether such a system has ever been in force in any part of
Canada ? — -No.
321G3. It is in force at the present time in Charlottetown, Prince Edwat'd Island,
where the people have repealed the Scott Act and have issued no licenses'? — Indeed.
32164. In regard to the present cjuestion, we understand that you have prisons and
asylums to visit and hospitals to inspect. Have you any reformatory institutions? —
No, except the Women's and Orphans" Home.
.'5216"). Then you have no refoi'matory for boys ? W(> had one, but we had no boys
to reform and we turned it into another institution.
321()(t. Where is it ?-- At Brandon.
32167. For what j>ui|)ose is it used now?- For an asylum.
32168. You stated that you have no boys to rt^forni ? We kept it up for one year
and only got one boy.
3216!). You also stated that one jail has been clost>d up; whei'e is that? — At
Nee)>awa.
.'52170. Is it the county jail? — It is a large building.
32171. For what purpose was it used? For the purposes of a jail.
32172. In what judicial district is it situated? — In the Central Disti'ict.
32173. Is it in one of the sections where the Si-ott Act was j)assed ?— No ; it i"
situated in what was formerly a part of the North-west Territory, but which was added
to the ]irovince. The people there were always in favour of th<> law.
32174. So the sentiment in *hat section was lai'gely in favourof that Act? — Yes.
3217'). Do you think that has any ell'ect on tla; connnunity? ^Vs an observing
man, would you endeavour to enforce such a law l)efore there was a strong sentiment in
its favour ?— Yes, before there was a large sentiment in favour of it.
.32176. Have you considered the desirability of taking the sense of the people on
this question, and as to whether the choice should l)e by a majority of votes polled or
by a majority of votes on the voters list / — I ha\e thought over the (piestion.
32177. We find cases of tliis kind: Assume there are 4,000 names on the voters
list. Of that number there would be jMilled at the Dominion election 3,000, and at a
Scott Act election only 2,000? That is connnon and is tpiite explainable.
321 7H. It has been suggested that if, in order to adopt the Scott Act, a majority of
votes on the voters list should be needed, instead of a bare majority of the votes i-ast,
the people could hope for a much better enforcement of the law ? — Tliat is the way it is
hrte.
32170. Have you a local option law ? Yes. We h ^ve no such re(|uirement as a
majoi'ity, we have th(> two-thirds , but that is a very large majority of our municipalities.
.32180. Is it the same system here as Mr. Mowat introduced into Ontario, allowing
townships to vote on the question ? I tlo not know.
Jo)jN W. SiFTON.
lUO
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
th
3"J181. Tlie saiiio in rej^iird to imiiik'iiialitics ? In rci^iird tn iiuiiiiciiialitiL's, it is
11' SilllU
lu-rc ; l)ut it is not a luajurity tliat is re(|iiii'tHl.
;)218"J. Doyiiu ii(»t Hiul tliat tin- sciitiiiitMit on that (|U('sti<in in rural districts ditl'iTS
\ery niiR'li from tliat wliic'li jirovails in tlic villam's and towns ,' — 1 was always of tlu'
iinpicssiou that it did so. 1 was always atVaid of the xotc in towns, i)Ut the I'oci'Ut
\oti' in Winnipcj; has ujiset my calctdations.
3l'1S;3. Have you iH'cn iti rountit's when' the Scott Act was in foi-cc in Ontario? — ■
No, not for a long time.
3l.'IS4. There is an opinion, in sonic sections, that wlien votes are taken, the towns
are ai)t to vote ai
rainst the Act
fur i>
oliiliit
I out' |)rovince e'cry to\\ n iias t;n en ainajofitv
ion.
.'ililSTi, 'riiorofore, you have more liojie now? I can ^ive cases when the Scolt Act
was passed and the towi
.ted f(
ir It.
.■)L'I8(). It has ))een contended that it would he well to adopt the system hy
)alit
wliicli
each municipality eould sjieak f<ii- itself : the rui-al districts laUini,' the Act if they wished
it, the towns also, if in favour of doinji so, and that in this way there would he better
ehanees of enforcing; the law. Ifave you considered that (piestion? The ohjeetion is
that li(iuor m;j;ht he sold in the municipalities ii<,'ht alongside.
.■{■J 187. How is Wiinii
peg situated in
that
respect to outside mumcipahlies;
It
all'ected. if there is any cliaiic-e,
3lM8S. 'I'liere is nothing to jirevcnt |ieople hringing li(pior in here, I understand '.
l^efore the License Act was introduced, the <lealers kejit right on with the sale. if the
li(luor had to be carried great distances, of course it was more <liHicult to supply it, but
it was taken into llu> Territories in barrels of sugar and ri.e, ,Vc. I had several cases
liroughi before miv
!{2l8!t. There is nothing to prevent ]ieojile from laying in a private st(
nipeg and taking it hoiiu; .' -No.
W
in-
31il'.H). Have y^u f">V suggestions to oiler to the ('oininission in regard to anv
imendmeiit to the law?— No, i ha\'e n
o siii'"''stions
to oiler. T
isi" law,
lia\t'it here, seems to i)e as pertect as it can be made. It is amended from lime to
d\
tune, and is always being iin]iroveil and is workii
belti
r. There is a very strong t
■iVort
iiig made at tlu' present time to cnfoici- the law, stronger elVorts than lia\(^ e\er been
made before.
3"Jllll. Taking the Doniinion as a whole and supposing the sentiment to be in
fa\'oui' of prohibition as regards the .Maritime Provinces, the Province of <^>ucbee hold-
ing the balance, ( )ntario beint; faMuirable, Manitoba sironu;l\ favoring and Ibitish
Columbia strong
;ly o])p
law under tho.se eircumstanees
)osing it would you fa\(iiir the passing ot a general iirohibitory
I
lid f
ii\ o'lr iiro
•hibiti
!!der anv I'lrcumslaiu'c
.■$■_' 1!)L'. And you would lei each )ii'ovince take cari uf itself? My own idea is that
the |)oiiiiiii(>!i Parliament should confer the 'lecessary power on the provinces to ai-t,
for if they have not the p'.vver to act, it woc.ld li<' useless for them :•' tiv to carry out a
pi
)liibiti
32P,);{.
i."l- vou
in favour of IcLrislalion to carrv nut that v it
;gislMlion
on that point : and it would settle all the dilliciilt ies on thai mal''r,i!.d settle all the
disiHites. My own impression of the Scott Act is that its failure liere was on account
of there b
mg no proper provision made to I'arry it out.
.■iLM'.tl. We understand that under t' e law the fines were iiiiiied over to the muni-
cipalities in order to enable them to enforce tin
vv 'se duty it was under tlii' .\ct to carrv it out.
(I
Act ? Y
1)11
I tl
lere w as no otlieei
Th
le revenue otlicer retiised to c.iirv
lit in every instance, and he was told by his su))eriors that he was not I'ompelled ti
•.lo so, and that he must not take any risl.
.'{L'PJri. Jjut there was no dillicultv, I believe, in th
tlu Act?— N(
(' local authorities carrving out
.'{■itOfi. You may remember that in t)iitario the Provincial (Joverninent kept iiispe
tors ill Scott .Vet counties for the express i)uriM)se of eiifoiciii|f the Act
M""l
Ik
now 1 1
did.
''""1i;'.'5"Jlll7. Ill New Uriinswick the Legislature iiiiide |iro\ision in the same direction '.
T would do away with that ditliculty here by making arrangements for the appoint
in'-nt of otlicers to carrv out the Act.
101
i|
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
32198. Then you would favour the Provincial Legislature appointing officers to
cairy out the law ? — Yes.
32199. Then I suppose you would be willing that the proceeds of the Scott Act
fines should go to meet the expense of carrying out the Act ? — Yes.
!^
<ill
^
WILLIAM SMALL, of Winnipeg, Carpenter, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows : — -
By Judge McDonald :
32200. How long have you resided in Winnipeg? — Since 1884.
32201. Did you come here from Ontario ?~ -Yes.
32202. From what part of the Province ? — From Huron.
32203. Have you had any experience of the working of a prohiVjitory law?— No,
the Scott Act was adopted after I left.
32204-. Have you had any experience in regard to the working of a prohibitory
law anywhere ? — No.
32205. Do you hold any official position in connection with the labour societies ? —
Not at present.
32206. Ha\e you held such positions ? — Yes.
32207. What position have you held? — I was Vice-President of the Trades and
Lfilx)ur Council here, and 1 occupied for one year the Chair in the Assembly of the
Knights of Labour.
3220''^. How long ago was that ? — About a year ago.
32209. Have y<m had anything to do officially with the enforcement of the license
law ?~ -Nf».
32210. Have you observed the woiking of the license law in Winnipeg? — Yes.
32211. Do you think it works satisfactorily or the reverse ? — I believe the license
law is enforced as well here as it is possible to enforce it.
32212. Do you think the police perfoim their duties efficiently ? — I believe so, that
is as well as officials do in other places.
32213. Can you give the Cfjnnnission any information in regard to the working of
that law?- I do not think the working is satisfactory. I see a good many instances of
violations of the law, and I observe that a good many cases of violation of the Sabbath
observance provisions are prosecuted.
32214. Do you see di'unken people on the street on the Sabbath? — Yes.
32215. Do you know that people purchase drink on the Lord's Day, or do they
obtain it at home ? T cannot .say, but I see tiiem on the street.
3221(5. Is there much illicit sale in places not licensed ?— I have no j)ersonal
knowletlge as to that.
32217. Do you know anything in regard to the (juality of the liquor sold, whether
it is pure or adulterated?- Not personally.
32218. Have you observed any of its effects that would enable you to judge? — My
knowledge of anj'thing of that kind is derived from conver.sations I have had with
medical men as to the effi'cts of liquor, and they lead me to this conclusion, that when
liquoi' is cheap it is not apt to be adulterated, and that the highei' you increase the
pric
e the greater the inducement to adulterates it.
32219. Have you studied the question of prohibition ? — I hrve.
32220. At what conclusion have vou arrived in regard to it ?- -T think it
a decided benetit to the country to have iirohibition.
ihl 1
)e
—Yes.
32221. You would favoui' the passage of a prohibitory law for the whole Dominion
32222. Do you think such a law could be efficiently enforced at the present time ? — I
do not ser ,vhy it should not.
John W. Sikton.
102
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32"J23. Do you think it would favour smuggling iinil illicit stills and everything of
that kind 1 — No doubt there would be a certain amount of that business done.
'V22'2i. Still you think it would he Ix^neficial as a whole '? — I do.
3222"). Have you considered the question of granting compensation to brewers and
distillers in the event of the passage of .v general prohibitt)ry law '?— Yes.
32220. What is your view in regard to the matter? — As a matter of dollars and
cents, I believe it would pay to recompense every brewer and distiller and sak)on-keei>er ;
but as matter of morals, I say that they should compensate us for the souls and bodies
ruined. It is time for us to ask compensation.
32227. In other words, you would not give them any compensation whatever] — I
Would not.
3222S. Would you favour a pi-ohiiiitory law throughout the entire Dominion, irre-
spective of the state of sentiment in the different provinces 1 In the event of the Mai itime
Provinces being strongly in favour of proliil)ition, Queb(!C o[)posed toil, Ontai'io holding
the balance, Manitoba in favour of it and British Columbia very strongly against it,
would you, under those circumstances, favour the passing of a law for the whole country 't
— Probably the law would be better carried out if it were l.mited to j)rovinces that were
strongly in favour of it ; but T wftuld be in favour of passing a prohibitory law for the
whole Dominion, simply Ijecause my observation has led me to believe, that while one
man may believe in local option, twenty men believe in the total pi'ohibition of the sale
and manufactui'e of li(ju(.)r.
3222!). What is your view of a license law? — I think a license law is wrong. The
State has no right to license the tratHc.
32230. Do you look upon the sale of licpior as being so great an evil that the State
should not license it ? — The sali; of liquor is an evil to the State, and the State has no
right to license an evil. If the sale of litpior is not a wrong "hiiig, then the hotel-
keepers and the saloon-keej)ers have no right to pay for the pri\ilegt^ of selling liquor.
32231. So there should either be untrannnelled sale or pi'ohibition, no half-way
measure, I suppo.se? — That would be my personal o])inion, as a matt(!i' <if |n-inciple. As
a matter of expediency, the license law might be better than untrammelled sale. We
must go as far as we can and not as far as we would.
32232. Do you look on lice:ise as a step towards prohibition ? No.
32233. Do you consider that it is standing in the way of prohibition ? I du,
32231. D" you prefer the system of untrammelled sale? — Yes: no one luoking at
the (juestion from my point of view could have any other o[)inion.
3223"). Under which system would you hope soctmn- t(j obtain prohibition : untram-
^nenr-d sale or the present license law ? F sometimes think thai if \\i- ha<l the thing in
('.".! itfi hideousness before us, we would want to do away with it (|ui< ker.
32236. Your feeling is, as T uiulcrstand you, that the effect of untrannnelled sale
w.'.rkl be such as to create a prohibitory sentiment, which would not be created under
! !)' license I'lw ? Yes.
.'i:'"*.">7. And further that you would be able to get prohibition all the sooner? —
A'Ui'U.'r objection to the license law is that it makes the thing respcclabli', and I am
ir /re afraid of the r(!spectable saloon, foi- my boy, than 1 am nf the grog-^hoji.
■m
(I be
By /i>;v. Dr. Mr hod :
32238. What is the object of trade unions? It is to better the cdntlition of the
workingmen so far as their ])articular trades an- concerrH'd.
32230. Do trade unions have any I'ules as I'eganls the use of ii<|Uipr ••ind drinking
habits of members I — No.
32210. Do they encourage imn-drinking ? T think they do.
32241, Are many members of these societies in favour of pmhibition ? 1 believe
that, as a rule, they are in favour of al)olishing the li(|uor trallie.
32212. Have you observed that the drinking habits of mtu'lianics ha\e greatly
mterfered with their wage-earning power ? — Yes.
32213. Do you think there is a change in the drinking habits, and that they are
uot as general among the mechanics as formerly ? Probably there is a change for the
103
! I.
K .;i^
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
bettor, hut one thinj^ that I do know is that employers are Ijeginning to see, more so
than formerly, that it is to their advantage to have sober men.
32244. Hf)\v (Joes tliat opinion manifest itself 1 — By sober men being given the
preference.
3224."). You tliink they get tlie i)reference ? — They do.
32246. Take a mwlerate drinker, a drinker that takes something every day : is he
placed in the same class as the total abstainer by his employer ?— I do not think so.
32247. Is he regarded as a reliable man '! — Yes ; but he is likely to break down
any day. ,
32248. Then it is not simply the man who drinks to excess, but also the man who
has the drinkinj; habit ? — Men who drink to excess are on the lower grade.
.32249. Then men who have the drinking habit are not looked upon by their
employers as being eejual to total abstainers i — They are looked upon by their employers
as risky.
.■522.">0. Have you ol)served what proportion of time a drinking man will lose in a
month (»n account of his drinking habits ; I do not mean the man who gets drunk, but
the regular drinker ? — What is knt)wn as a moderate drinker may go on for years and
not lose one hour of time ' Sss through sickness induced by liquor.
322ol. Have you noti t iiess to be so induced 1 — Yes, I know of it in my
own case. Although a tot;.. dner now, I was not always so. I know I am not
physically as good a man as I >v ;ti have been if 1 had always been a total abstainei'.
•■522")2. You believe, in case of men drinking steadily, that while perhaps their wage-
earning power may not be diminished seriously, they are of less value than total
abstainers ? — Y''es.
322.'53. Then you think the licensed places are dangerous to drinkers ? — I certainly
think they are.
322.")4. Take th(^ moderate drinker and any other drinking man ; do you believe a
considerable number of them would be lessened if the licensed places were not so
numerous and if workshops were not surrounded by them ? — I have been told that by
scores.
.322o5. l)(j you believe that prohibition would be a benefit to the country at large?
— I do.
By Judge McDonald : ,
3225G. Can you name any employer of labour in this city who questions a man as
to whether he is a total abstainer or not ? — I think the Canadian Pacific Railway
enforces this rule in regard to their foremen and engineers while on duty.
32257. You think they have rules to that effect ? — Yes.
32258, Do you know any ordinary business in which the question is asked as to
whether a man is a total abstainer or not ? — Not from my own knowletlge.
.32251). And if an employer finds a man who through the use of intoxicating liquor
is becoming incapacitated for work, he would deal with him of course.
32260. liut unless he was becoming so, he would not deal with him ? — No, as a
rule they do not.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
32261. Taking a man who is a total abstainer and a man who is a moderate
drinker, do you think an employer would almost iavariably prefer the total abstainer ?
— Yes, I believe the majority of employers in this city would do so.
By Judge McDonald : .
32262. And if he did not ask the question when the man came to work, how could
he know as to his habits '/ — They soon see whether a man is efficient or not.
32263. Then they do not mind what his habits are if he is erticient ? — No.
32264. Do you mean that a man who takes a glass of ale once a day is le.ss efficient
than a man who is a total abstainer ?- — Y'^es, T believe he i % A man who dri:d\S beei',
thinks beer.
William Small.
104
as
ay
to
uite
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32265. I suppose your opinion extends to the man \vhotai<es a glass of wine a day?
—Yes.
■52266. Or one pitcher of ale 1 — Yes.
32267. Would you go so far as to say that the man who partakes of it at all is a
fool ? — Yes, I think he will harm himself.
32268. No matter in how moderate a quantity ? — Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
32269. You do not mean to say that in an offensive way ? — No.
32270. Have you observed whetli?r the man who is in the habit of taking one glass
of ale and continues to do so for a number of years, has a desire to increase the tjuantity
he takes daily ? — He increases it.
By Judge McDonald :
32271. Have you not known hundreds of men who never went beyond the one
glass 1 — Yes, it is possible but improbable.
32272. Take the number of men you know : what percentage of them are men who
drink to excess. Is it not a very small percentage? — T have known very few moderite
drinkers who have not gone over the mark some time or other.
32273. The (juestion I asked was this : taking men of your accjuaintance who were
liot total abstainers, men who do take licjuor to some extent, do not those men who take
it to excess form a very small percentage ? — Thev will take it to excess s(»me time.
32274. All of them ? -Most of them.
32275. Will the number be a large proportion? — Yes, I believe a large proportion
at some time or another are liable to go beyontl the limits of prudence.
The Commission adjourned.
d
ii
lid
r-r,
105
t^
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
WINNIPEG, October 26th, 1892.
The Commission met this day at 10 a.m. •
PrfHent :
Jud(;k McDoNWLD. IiEV. Dk. McLeod.
Kkv. JOHN STEWAliT of Treherne, Municipality of North Norfolk, Electoral
District of Selkirk, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
By Judge McDonnld :
.'}2270. How far is Treherne from the border of the United States ? — About 50 miles ;
wo are in southern Manitoba.
■■?2277. You are a minister of the Gospel, I understand? — Yes,
;{2278. With what denomination are you connected ? — The Methodist Church.
32279. How long have you resided in Manitoba ?— Three and a half years.
.'52280. Did you come from one of the other provinces ? — Yes ; I have lived in Yoi-k,
Ontario. I came here from Ontario.
32281. From what County's — North Ljinark.
32282. Have you had any experience in the working of the Scott Act? — Yes.
32283. In what County ? — It was in force in Brome County, after the Dunkin Act,
and in KnowU-on, the county town. They had prohibited licenses being granted, which
they had the privilege of doing. Then again in Missisquoi.
32284. How did you find prohiljition work in that section of the country? — As
well as could be reasonably expected, in view of the burdensome conditions connected
with the Act.
i5228r). You were near the boundaiT line of the United States, I believe? — Yes.
32286. Were you near Vermont State? -Yes, about 6 miles distant ; I lived at
Clarenceville in Missisijuoi.
152287. Have you had any experience in the Noi'th-west Territories ? — No, I have
lived in Manitoba since I canu; west.
32288. How long have you been in the ministry ? — 1 am now in my thirty-first
year in the ministry.
32289. During that time, and in your v.'ork as a ministei-, have you e.xperienced any
difficulties owing to the intemperate habits of the people ? — Yes, but not in our own church
and with <mr own people. We have been, however, harassed by the extent of the traffic
around us.
32290. We have on file the official deliverance of your Church as made at the
general conference held in Montreal, in 1890, in which strong ground is taken in favour
of prohibition ? Do you personally agree in that ? — I do.
32291. Did the deliverance of that conference have the effect of binding the body
as a whole, both ministers and lay-men? — Yes, for the reason that ii is our discipline.
That is what we call the rules of the Church in regard to the membership. The rules
provide that every man shall abstain from strong drink, and no one is allowed to partake
of it except in cases of extreme necessity. Some years ago, when a boy, I entered the
Church and had the })rivilege of voting to have reinserted the woid "extreme." By
some means or other the word "extreme ' was left out in the discipline of the Church.
The Conference decided to submit to a vote that the word " extreme " should be inserted
in the rules of the church in this country, to {)lace it in its proper [)lace, as in th^ original
rules of the Church. The connection would be this : the members of the Church are
not allowed to use intoxicating drink except in cases of extreme necessity.
Kkv. John Stewart.
106
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32292. In other words, it can only he used for medicinal purposes ? — Yes, in
regard to the queHtion as to the deliverance l>eing binding upon the people : from our
district meetings and our annual conferences year by year there is a deliverance on the
(juestion in order to present it in the locality or within the bounds of the district. Sol
should think that deliverance of the Oenei'al (/'onference may be said to be authoritative
for the whole Church.
32293. Membership is not allowed to those who use liquor as a lieverage, I believe.
What is the position of those who are connected with the manufacture of drink ! They
are not allowed to do so.
32294. Then no person who is engaged in the manufacture or traffic is allowed
to become a member of the Church ? —He is liable to expulsion unless he resorts to deceit.
3229.5. Then any one who was engaged in the traffic at the time he applied for
admission would be expelled ? — Thatj is unless some unjust man in tlie locality should
neglect or set aside the rules of the Church.
32296. The rules of the Church would not allow liiTn to be admitted into the Church
as a member? — Quite so, I do not know of such an one who is a member in g(M)d
standing of the Church ; I do not know any member of the Methodist Church who either
Tuanufactures or sells liquor unless he may be a druggist who has r license.
32297. What is your ofunion in regard to the use of wine at the sacrament?— There
has been a great deal of laxity on the part of our own Church, but that I think is being
corrected. If you will allow me, I will give an instance that came under my own notice.
When in the Province of Quebec, at Knowlton in Brome County, we had a man addicted
to drink who came to the sacrament at the Church in the neighbourhoml. The duty of
obtaining the wine was left with our recording steward. He went to the tavern and
obtained a bottle of ordinary wine — the ordinary stuff they .sold there-; and when I
presented to this man the bread betook it, and when I presented the wine he brnught it
towards his face and in a very excited manner thrust it ba(!k in my face. He explained
afterwards that he had been addicted to diink. He .said. " If I had put the goblet to
my mouth I woukl certainly have had to swallow the contents." T then made a vow in
my own mind that T would never again present to my people fermented wine.
32298. Speaking of that matter, which I know is a ((uestion that has often been
discussed, I desire to ask you whether you know there are religious l)odies that will only
give the communion with wine that is fermented? — Yes.
32299. Hiis it ever occurred to you that a man coming to the table for that purjiose
may have strength given him that may not be given to him at othei' times, and in this
way save him from falling into temptation ?- I do believe that. This man had only been
\ery recently reformed, and I am sure the temptation was \ery strong. He was then
fighting against the tiiirst for drink. I think it is within the privileges of our church
officials te provide wine that will not have that effect. Since 1 resolved to provide
wine of that kind to my people, I have been successful. T think it is nur jii-ivilege to
preserve our people from partaking of fermented wine that dues not contain the intox-
icating quality. Just as our families preserve the juice of the grape, 1 have been able
to do it.
•'!2.'500. May not a man have grace given to him at such a time as that to enable
him to resist tenq)tation, which he might not be able to resist on another occasion !- — I
do not know, but I admit that it might be possible. I think a man nuist receive grace
from God to enable him to resist teinpt.itiitn on every occasidii.
32301. You sjtoke of the recording steward going to the village tavern and ])rocur-
ing this bottle of wine. In your experience as a minister, have you found great ditli-
cully in obtaining fermented wine of a pure character ? — Very great difficulty until we
resoi'ted to the other means.
32302. Was there great difficulty in obtaining pure fermented wine / I never
found it pure, so far as my judgment would go. I rememl)er that on one occasion,
previf»us to this time to which I have referred, when the wine was provided -I do not
know who secured it, but it was the official stewaril to the sei'tion - I tasted a little of
it myself, as it was my privilege t<i do, and I could not have taken more than half a
teaspoonful ; but not. being accustomed to use anything of the kind, I felt t.\w effect of
that small ((uantitv in mv heail. It created dizziness, and when f got, through the
107
:ii
|.!:
k:
;I9
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
ceremony several ladies came to me and questioned me in regar<l to the wine. Tliey
toltl me tluit it had jirodiiced (»ii tlieiu the vei-y same effects tliat it had produced on me.
T could refei' the Commissi(»n to a statement whicli T saw in the Mijntreal il'lfiicn.'i.
Good wine was advertised in tlit^ papei's, and by the Wtfnt'ns, as being specially prepai'ed
by a responsible fiiin I will not, of course, give the name —by whom wine is specially
prepared from the pure juice of the grape for sacramental purposes. The ]Vit)ii',ii>
submitted a little of that wine for analysis. It was analysed by th<' othcial analyst of
the province and of the Dominion, who found that there was only lo p.c. of grape juice
in the bottle.
:V2'M\. What was the rest?! could not say.
32304. Apart from your expei'iences as a minister, living as you diil in Ontario and
in a great many sections of the country, have you had reason to believe that in the rural
disti'icts a great deal of adulterated stuff was st^UI at taverns for pure wine and pure
lifjuor ?— Yes, I found that to be the case. When I lived in Hrampton, I was sixteen
years old and was going to school there. There was a book-keeper employed by a
wholesale and retjiil merchant. Of course, he had a large (|uantity of different kinds
of liquor in the cellar. The book-keepei- was addicted to drinking strong drink.
One day when I came down the street I noticed a numb(!r of peoj)le arouiul the
establishment and also three physicians. They had found the book-keeper in the
cellar, with a young lawyer. He was in the habit of taking oil of almonds to clear
off' the effects of li(|uor (hwing the time he was at business. He took too much,
and when he was called by the proprietor, did not appear. He occujned a room in the
third story and one of the clerks ran up in a great hui'ry and fcund him in a dying
condition. Before any of the physicians could reach him. he was dead. It was then
found that oil of bitter almoncN, bluestone and strychnine were used in the adultera-
tion of the liquor.
32.'?0r). Did you not Hud also in Ontario that many per.sons who purchased the
compounds, sold under the name of li(]uors, were terribly affected by drinking them in
small ([uantities ? — Yes.
32.'50(). They would become paralyzed, as it were ( — Y'es ; there was a time at
Knowlton — I was there during three years -during which I never saw a drunken man
but (jne, on the street, and he had not got the liquor within the town, but he brought
it in froiii an adjoining town. After he had taken some of that liquor, he acted like a
madman, nd he ultimately ilied. That is one instance.
323Ui . In regard to the main (juestion as to the liquor trathc, of course you favour
prohibition .' — Yes.
32308. If the choice l,ay between licensed traffic and untrammelled .sale, which
would you prefer? — In regard to untrammelled sale, I think that would be an extreme
measure, I would rather have a license' system, but a license system has many diffi-
culties about it. The officials who are supposed to look after the arrying out of the
law are .so lax in their duties that if the system were adopted, it probal)ly would not be
enforced. Of cour.se it would be very much better than untranmielled sale. I think
the license .system should be amended, and the officials to whom we look for the carrying
out of the law should be placed under propter bonds to do theii' duty. I have found
that the officers of the law cannot do anything wrong before a court, and they are sworn
to perform their dutii's. If they were compelled to carry out the law as they should do,
I think it would be more satisfactory than it is at present.
32309. From your experience, do you think it would be well to make pi'ovision for
a rigid and firm enforcement of the license law, and also inspection of li(|uors sold irnd
as to their (|uality ? — I certainly do. 1 think the officers should be permitted, where there
as is a (|uestion of illicit sale, to search the priMuises and conffscate the liquor.
32310. Would you favour the granting of compensation to brewers and distillers in
the event of the enactment of a general pi'ohibitory law ? I do not think so. I answer
that (juestion readily, because I have thought a great deal over that matter. T think
any class of men who have invested their money in a business which they must know
is very (|uestionable, inasmuch as so nmch harm arises from the traffic, and who more-
over hold their licen.ses only from year to year, must be aware that if a prohibitory law
]{ev. John Sthwaht.
108
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
If a j)r(ilul)itury liiw slmuld
oj)|Mirtuiiity (if di-aliiii,' with
li(|Uor tnirtic in tlio district
tak(>ii itii |)n>liil)iti<m in tlie
were to be eiiaeted, tliey were lial>le to lose tlieii' capital,
he enaeted, I tldnk the (Joveriiineiit sliould ^'ive them an
their husiiiess and (h.sposiiij; of it in some way.
■'i^.'Hl. What is the state of atl'airs in re;.;ard to th(
wliere yim now reside ? On May lOth, there was a v(»te
municipality of South Norfolk. The vote stood, I think, between 40 <tr aU aj,'ainst, to
between '200 and 300 foi' the local option law. It was set aside by one of the .lud^'esof
this province on the "ground of .some technicality. Tlie fact is, that if the people had
had the money, they w(»uld have been able to .set a.side the decision of the .)ud.i;e Itecause
the j)remise on whidi his decision rested was not true. The law requii'es tl-.atan adver-
tisement shall be inserted in the nearest newspaper to the muidcipality where the vote
is bein;{ submitted. There was no nows[)aj)er thert^ ; Carl)erry is situated on the iu>rth-
west of the municipality and Partaj^e la Prairie on the north-east. They tliou<;ht it
would be sutlicient to jtublish it in the Portage paper and not in CarbiTry, but it was
held that Carberry was nearer. On such a technicality, the decision of the election was
reversed. There are no licenses in the town where we live; applicants cannot get licenses.
32312. How many votes were available ! — I think 1,000 for the district.
32313. And only 350 votes were given, I understand ? — I have only given the
figures of the vote from memory.
32314. Was there a considerable absenc(M)f the voters from the polls? — From my
statement it would appear so, but I must fall back on the facts, and I understootl from
the municipal clerk that there was a very strong vote brought out.
32315. Of the vote that did come out, there was a very large majority in favour of
local option ? — Yes.
32316. The feeling of the people is such that no licenses are granted ^— No license.?
are granted at Treherne.
32317. Are there any licenses granted near by? — From time to time. When the
local option was pas.sed ami before the issuing of the new license law, a hotel-keeper at
Holland, about ten miles west of here, tried to obtain a license but has not succeetled
yet.
32318. It is ten miles from your residence to the nearest tavern anil no licen.ses
are granted. Do you think there is any illicit sale? — Not any to my knowledge, and
none to any great extent.
32319. Are the peoj)le prohibited from bringing in liquor for their own personal
use from other places? — I think most of the li(|Uor got in our town is brought in in that
way. It would not pay them to sell liquor in quantities in view of the small sale
within our town.
32320. How do you find the prohibitive provisions are can ''.k\ out in regard to
closing on Sunday l — In regard to Sunday, I can say that there have never been any
disturbances. However, I believe there has been liquor sold. The only time that
licenses were in force since I went to Treherne was during six months. The issue of the
license was in dispute, and when the (juestion of renewal came up in May or June, the
town was turbulent and so disorderly that the ladies would not go on the street.
32321. Do you mean while the licenses wei-e in force ?- Yes. A small jail was built,
but by the time it was finished with bolts and bars, licenses were refuised, and there has
never been any person placed in it.
32322. Were they residents of the place who were so turbulent? They were
parties who came in and got drink. A hoi-.se was ridden into the bar-room with two
men on its back and a third trying to get on — they br'ought tin horse to the bar to treat
him. Such conduct as that was enough to prompt the people to adopt some remedy for
the evil.
32323. Would there not be a provision under the license law to enable the Inspector
to bring up such a man for keeping a disordeily house? — I have no disposition to find
fault with the officers appointed. The pi'incipal otiicer lives in this city, and it was
pretty difiicult to get him there in time to deal with the case. That, of course, was the
trouble.
32324. Who are his deputies? — I do not know that he has any deputies there;
that is also a great trouble.
109
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1 '■,
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1 i
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Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■{:i.'{2"). Under tlie jircseiit licens«' law, do yuu think it W(»uld Iw well if tliere weiv
otticci-s appointed in tlie outer diHtiiets who could report and act with their chief in
Winnipe;;'/ — T do.
I5'_';{'J(). Some otHcePH appointed who would have power to act? — I tliink that woulil
Ih- a g<K»d nuMisure. Thedithculty that would still exist would lie that there would not
be a prosecuting otHcer. It is left, I understand, to the municipality to a]>[ioint a license
inspectoi'. Tlu^ municipality has to appoint an officer and pay his salary and the people
do not wish to pay a man's salary foi' such little work. There is another ditKculty that
exists. While tlu?re are temperance people, as a rule the nuijority do not wish to pay
any man .^oOU for working to that extent for the municipality. If the duty was entrusted
to the Justice of the munici])ality of appointing an officer, who at the same time might
he connected with some other office, such, for instance as that of head constable, in that
way they would be able to raise the money, and the difficulty would be removed.
By Jiev. Dr. McLeod:
Wl'^'ll. How does prohibition work in ytjur district? — I think my answer to a
similar (|uestion was, as well as we could expect under the circumstances.
32.S28. I did not know that that answer applied to the feeling at the provincial
election, but rather to prohibition in other places ? — -Yes.
.Sl'32!). Are you able to say anything difl'erent about the feeling in Manitoba, where
you have lived and had experience of it? — I have an opportunity of judging of the feel-
ing here. I am connected with a very hirge temperance lodge, with the (Jood Templars,
and I have an oj)j)ortuuity of gauging the sentiment of 150 mend)ers. My pastoral
duties extend to Holland, a town west, which I attend to as well as Treherne, and I
know the sentiment of the people there, anfl the large majority are in favour of temper-
ance principles, and I believe would be in favour of prohibition.
32330. What is the name of the polling district? — ^Treherne.
32331. Do you remember, if the vote rendered there was strongly in favour of pro-
hibition ? — Yes.
32332. Do you think that vote fairly represented the feelings of the people? — I do,
and also the intelligent action of the people.
32333. It was not done in a panic? — No, I think it is rather too hard on the
inhabitants of Manitoba to say that we are an unthinking peoj)le.
323.34. You have lived neai' Vermont? — Y^es.
3233o. Did you have the opportunity of observing prohibition in the State of Ver-
mont ? — No.
32336. Then you are not able to speak with definiteness on thiit fioint ? — ^I do not
think, from what I do remember, that they were a reckless drinking people in that
State, or we would have known something about it. I lived in the Eastern Townships,
near the boundary line, for lo years.
32337. The Conunission has liad the testimony of a gentleman in the Eastern Town-
ships who travelled through V'ermont a good deal, and who stated that prohibition had
met with a good deal of success, and I thought, perhaps, you had also visited the State?
— I have been across the line. I was impressed with the Ik w there, but I would not wish
to say anything about it, because I am not posted.
32338. Have you had an opportunity of comparing a community under a license
law with one under prohibition, and if so, what is the result of your comparison ? — I
have been in .seven ditlerent places within the three provinces where prohibition has
been in existence in one form or another, and I have found in every ca.se that it was
beneficial, that it was against the drunkard and in favour oP peo[)le who were in favour
of temperance.
32339. You have stated that you have found a great deal of trouble arising from
intemperance. Have you found that the drink trade has been an inteiference with
your work as a christian worker? — Yes, in this way : I find that a man taking strong
drink does not attend Divine service, and I do not often have a tavern-keeper or a rum-
seller in my congregation. In conference with other ministers, I have found that their
experience have been very similar to my own. In regard to habitual drinkers, I find
Rev. John Stewart.
110
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
that they absent thfiiiselvcs from stTviw and do not attend for some time, and tlien tliey
take heart and return to service. It is a flitliL'ult matter to ajuiroach a man who is a
habitual drini<er to try and j)ersuade him to reform.
32340. Have you found that the drink trade, as establi.shed by Heen.se, iuis a (hMnoral-
izin<; ert'ect on the eonnnunity, not only on tiio.se who are addictinl to drink but upon the
eommunity at lar^je, as it dulls theii' moral .sense? — Yes, I l)elieve it has such an effect.
The licen-se .system <;ives a legitimate cast to the drink and to the fact that the liar
is o]ien. The youn<; people are found in the evenings in the hotels; they are tempted
to drink, whereas if the bar was i»ot, and li<pior was not there, the young men coming
into the hotels to get their meals, as well as the older men, would not be t(>mpted as
they are now in any community where the license system exists. I think that the
legalization of the drink trade gives the people a right to uphold it; they are i-eady to
defend themselves, and they chink becaust^ they have paid numey for the privilege of
selling.
"* 32341. From your thirty yeai-s' experience in pastoral work over a very large area
of country, have you ob.served whether, to any great extent, the drink trade and drink
habit are the causes which lead to crime, immorality, jxivorty, neglect of women an<l
children and neglect of religion I -That i|uestion covers the ground very fairly ; that has
bet'n my experience. The greater part of the evils I have known have originated in
drink, in fact, in nearly all cases. Iri the town where I live there is a young merchant,
who told me one time that before he was in favour of moderate drinking, but when he
found that he was getting into the habit of going into the bar-room anil spending money
that should have been spent for groceries, he was cured of that tendency, aiifl he is now
with us. He is a Roman Catholic, I do not wish to lower him on that account ] mean
to say that I am a Methodist. Tt might be thought that by influence 1 secured power
over him and in that way obtained his co-operation, but he is not with our communi-
cants, and at the same time he is a religious young man in business. His change may
have taken place by reason of business principle.s, l>ut still it had that effect.
32342. Do you believe that enforced j)iohibitiim would greatly benefit the country,
economically and morally? — I do. If the Government granted prohibition, tlu;y could
carry out the law if they would honestly endeavour to do so.
32343. You are speaking ai)out enforced prohibition? — Yes. The ([uestion has
come up in my own mind: Would there not be great difficulty in working the law ?
Then I have thought that if li(iuor were prohibited throughout the country, and its
manufacture prohibited, it would not be so difficult to work the law. The only sources
of trouble would be smuggling and illicit trade. At the same time, I am sure the
revenue officers would be able to look after that, as they look after the drink under the
license system.
DUNCAN McAHTHUR, Banker, Winnipeg, subm! ',
statement : —
WINNIPEG, M.VMTOHA,
• \ the following written
24lli October, 1.S<I2.
The Hon. Judoe ^IcDonald and Rkv. Dr. McLkod,
Commissioners, Royal Commission on the Liquor Traffic ;
I)KAH SiKS, — Availing myself of the permission kindly given me by you to expi'ess
my views in writing on the subject of youi' in([uiry, 1 have now to say, I'eplying
seriatiiHOix the vaiious points contained in the list with which I have been furnished : —
32343rt. There has been a great and beneficial change in the social customs of the
people of this city and of the Province generally since the time I tirst came here, about
twenty v'ears ago ; and this is jjartii-ularly true as regards the use of spirituous liquors,
although the practice of drinking prevails still to a considerable extent.
I think, as regards sobriety, that this Province will, as a whole, compare favourably
with any other part of the Dominion.
Ill
Liquor Tmfflc — Manitoba.
2. Tin- iiiilut'i'.fii ut' lilt' MuioiiH (.■liinriie<H and t»'m|i«;rinice 8(K;ietieM wliicli liiivo taken
up this siil)it'(;l Ims Im'cii ;,'r«'al, iiixf cuiidiiciM- in ii ^jri-iit iiicaMirf to the cxistitij,' state
of tliinj^'s. Tlic <'xaini>lt' set \>\ the late and tlic pifscnt LitHitcnant-iinvci'nui' iif tins
frovint't' in aliolisliing tlic nsi- of all li({U<irs at ( Jovi'i-ninciit House lias also had its value
in till' same direction.
.'{. The elleel of the liijuoi- t rathe on business and in families in this Province has,
speakinj,' fi'om niy ex|)ei'ienc'e, Im'cii prejudicial, and this is particularly (lie (;ase with
re)iard to (he use of spirituous liipiors. Tho yearly spirituous liipior hill of Manitoha
and tlie \orth-west Territories, which amounts to a considerahle sum, is almost a dead
loss to the community, inasmuch as those li(|uors are all importwl and leave no eipnva-
lent of even Ix-iielit, except the profit made i)y the vendors. In the case of malt liipior.s
manufactured within the province and territories, a certain henePt :i.ccrues to the manu-
facturers and employees and I'l thosi- who fin'nish the harley, etc. This loss can he ill
afford 'd hy the people of a new I'ountry like this, where, althou;;!) the natural resources
are ;;reat, capital has not had suthcient time to accumulate to any ade(]uate extent, and
i)i conse(iuence money may be expected to continue to In* scarce for .some time to come.
With reji,'ard to families, I am of the opinion tliat the .sale of li(|Uors has an injurious
effect on family life, hut as this touche'- the moral side of the question, which I under-
8tan<l diKS no* "iiter into your investijjation at present, but which after all i.s its grt^it-
eat side. I shall not follow this [toint further.
4. License li.w licen.ses are obtainetl by application to the license commissioners,
supported by petition miuie by a cei'tain number of the nearest re.sidents. The law is
fairly well observed on week days and also on Sundays, as far as I am aware. I am not
aware that the sale af intoxicatini; liijuors to minors has been carried on to any gi'eat
extent in this Province. As rej;ards the Indians, who are the wards of the Dominion
Govpinment, I know that licjuor has been too frequently supplied to them, perhaps not
dii-ectly but through intermediaiy means, and as the effect of liquor on tl class of
people is most demoralizing, stringent measures should be taken to prevent obtain-
ing it, either by direct or indii'cct means.
With regard to the .separation of liijuors from groceries, I think tlub . nould be
done, as the sale of li(iuors under grocery licenses supplies pernicious facilities in certain
cases.
x\.s to the comparative influence of hotel and saloon bar.s, I have to say that we
have no saloon bars in this city : but before they were abolished, their effect was worse
tlian the bars of hotels. I think it is in all cases advisable to have high license fees,
inasnmch as this has the effect of limiting the number of places where drink is .sohl,
and consequently reducing the facilities to indulge in casual and, to some extent also, to
habitual drinking. I am al.so of the opinion that the .sale of litjuor should be abolished
ill billiard and pool rooms.
o. I am not aware that the adulteration of liquors prevails to any extent in this
Province : I have never known a case of this kind to have occurred.
0. The illicit sale of liquor prevails t<j a cei-tain extent, but less now than formerly.
I think it is probable that it will di.sapi)ear in the course of a short time.
7. I think the treatment of jiersistent drunkards, as long as the (joverinnent
authorizes the sale of intoxicating drinks and in view of the fact liiat a certaiii percent-
age of the population is, owing to physiological peculiarities, unable to resist the appe-
tite for drink when it is once acquired, should l)e undertaken or supervised by the Gov-
erniiient in establishments -naintained for that purpose.
8. The use of light wines and ales is doubtle.ss preferable to sti'onger liipiors,
but in .iiany cases they foi'ui the thin end of the wedge and in time give place to
iiululgence in stronger drink. In this coiuioction it is a significant fact that the people
of northern countries are more addicted to the use <jf ardent spirits than those <jf southern
latitudes.
9. I have had no experience of the laws and customs of other countries on this
subject.
10. (a) With regard to prohibition, I believe the principle, if duly avowed by a
considerable majority <jf the people, is one which should be enforced.
Duncan McAhthuk.
112
57 Vicroiiii.
Sessionul Pai^ers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(A.) I t'lMtlicr liclicvi- it to lie iniicticalile tliioiijjlioiil the Dominiim, if |iiu|(cily
I'lifiii'ccd, iiiid I'liiiiii-ni ly sii ill II |ii'ii\ in 'o likt* Maiiitiil)ii, wliicli at in'csnit Iiuh u miiiiII
|Hi|iiilutiiiii, liy till' iiiajiM'ity nf wliuni tli" prin ipli- liiis liccii I'liilorsol.
('-.) Ill tlin fvt'iit lit' |ii'iiiiil)itiiiii lifiii^r niiictfil, it would oiilv U' tail', in my <i|iinioii,
to ifiiimirriitc till! distilli'fs and liicwiis t'of tliiir |>laiit. ric. Tlic fjipitul iincstrd in
di'^tiilci'irs, IiitwitIi's, cidi'i' mills and liuni'llin;,' ('stalili-<limfiits ..i tjit- l)oiiiiiiioii is
I'stimatfd at iiliont slti,()(JO,00(J, for wliioli, as a matt'T . f i-ommon ciiiiity, tlic partieH
iiiti'ifstt'd siiould fiii'fivn payment, 'I'lii.s Mini, allliiai;;li lar;;f, is less than llic liiiuof bill
of the |)omiiiioii for (iiif yt-ar, till- amount of which for I i^!) I, including' imported ami
hoiiK' made spirits, wines, A'l:., plus customs and excise duties and the cost of licen-es,
was a little user . SI '^,n()(),UO(}. This esliiiiate ,s at liist cost. The ie\enu" derived liy th()
|)omiiiioti --S(),()()(),()()() from all classes of stimulants, could be maile i ') by imposiiii»
slijihtly increased duties on other f,'oods and i)y brin^'in;; within the scope ot ♦he Custom-
house and excise ottiee cfrtain classes of j,'oods which are at present not sulijet' to duty.
1 remain, dear sirs, yours truly,
U. McAUTUL'K.
FUKDHHICK W. TilOMPSON
follows : —
of Winniju'f^, on
l.eiiiLj duly sworn, deposed as
By JmUjv McDonald:
^^ana<'el■ of the 0;'ilyie
Ten years.
the P ovince of t^ut^bec.
32.'Vt4. What is your business and occupation?—
Milling Co.
Wl'-W'i. How lonj^ have you resided in NX'imiipcf; f
.'5L'.'J4ti. From what proyinco tlid you comer— From
.■{■_'.'{47. I)u!'inji these ten years, have you occupied your present position? — I have
been em|iloyed in my present business.
.'ili.'JbS. How many men are employed by the ('oiiipany ? AVe employ here from
sixty to seventy-tiye. Of course the number varies according to the; work there is to do,
but we have seUioni less than .sixty.
."i^.'UO. Are they employed all the year ? — Yes.
3:i.'i.*)U. Of cour.se the output is l.irger sometimes than at othersi /— Yes, we have a
large number of men employed outside.
'.Vl'-\-i\. i)uring the time you have resided hero, have you oliserved any change in
the social condition of the people in reference to the use of intoxicating li([Uor as a
beverage ? — Not particularly.
.■iL'."?.52. In your own business have you found that you are affected injuriously by
the li(|Uor tratlic ? — I cannot say that 1 lia\e found that we have been afl'ect(Hl injuriously.
(Jf course we compel .sobriety on the pari of our men.
.■il!.'5.");{. Do you mean that you retpiii'e them to be tutid abstainers / — Xo.
.■{2.3.'34. But simply the men must not drink to excess? — Yes; we make insobriety
tilt; cause of immediate discharge.
:i'_'.'$.);j. Ho you apply any test with respect to \w.\\ whom you employ, except that
when men are addicted to intemperance you discharge them ? — Yes, a man umhM'stands
th.it when he engages himself with us.
.{^'Jod. Do you find from observat!'>n that there is much intemperance among your
men ? — Very little.
;32."5r)7. Have you noticed aiiy difference in the capacity of your men as between
men who do not take liijuor at all and men who take it in moderation ? —I have not
noticed that in any way. We may have some men who probably take a glass sometimes,
and I may not know about it.
;}2358. Then it is not noticjable to you on the part of men in your employ ? —
t^uite so.
113
21—8**
■!M|' ■
■fn
^ Ijquor Tratfic — Manitoba.
.'{•2.'>")!\ Have you lived in a eouiitiy wIkmv jirnhihitioii is in force? — I lived iii
iMissis(|U()i when the !>uiikiii Act was i.i t'orcf.
;?:2.'{('>0. How was it ("iit'oiveil tlitie?--T can only ,i,'ivi' my inipivsHion as a y<tiui';
man, prohahly too yoini!,', to judjic of any social piohlcm ; hut so far as my ohscrvation
went, r was not ia\'oUi'al)ly impressed with the Duiikin Act. People a])))eai»»d to Iw .ihle
to }H't li(|Uoi' at anytime. 1 also lived there aft^T the Act was repealefl, anci was
.struck with ;he fact that thei'e was U-ss drinkin>; in tlie village wheri- I lived under
license than there was while the Ounkin Act was in force.
.■<l.'.'{t)l. ffave y(»u made any study of the suhject of prohihition ? 1 have not made
it a study.
.'{L'.'ili'-'. Have you t'onsidered the rpiestion whether in ca.se of a proliihitorv lawl)ein;;
pa.ssed, it would lu; ri;;lit to make compensation to brewers and distillers for their |)lant
ami iinn)erty rendei'(!d useless'/ — I have considered the (luestion from that standpoint,
and T must .say that my idea is that there should he comiieiusation jiaid. Ft is legalized
as a husiness, and 1 think compensation should he granted.
.SL'^iCi.'i. Have you ever had any connection with the trade your.self? No, n<ine
whatever. I am a temperance man myself and very seldom u.se litpior.
.■Vj;}(i4. Then you have nothing to do with the trade? — Nothing wiiatever.
.'V_'."?Cr). Do you find this a ■^oher communitv ? -T have vei'V often remarked that
Winnipeg is a \-erv sol.er city, so far as my oi)servation goes.
JijI Ihr. Dr. McLfod :
.S23((C. You .say that you exact sobriety from your employers and are very particular
in regard to the drink h.ibit pre\ ailing among uiem. Are you troubled more with that
hahit now than in earlier year.-! ? -T '.'annot say that we notice any difference, it has
heen about the sani'> f')r some time.
.■{:.'.'?()7. Have vou noticed whether the driid< hahit affects the wage-earning power
of an average employee ? When 1 say the drink hahit, [ do not mean excessive drinking,
hut the drink hahit regularly indulged in, with more or less moderation - for modera-
tion is a very elastic term. ^ ask tiiat whether you ]ia\e noticed tliat in the long run,
workingmen from year to year who have indulgei' in the drink habit, lessen their
wage-earni,.g power ? 1 have probably not observeil tliat condition very closely, but 1
should think they would do so.
■'{'J-'Ulf*. Doe.s the license system suit your views as an employer ? — Of course that
would depend a great ileal. Tf a man who drinks l)e a clever man, we might under
certain circuiustances retain him, so long as he did not diink to excess, nf course if we
found him drinking to excess, we would drop him.
.■?2;5()0. Then you look upon this matter from j)iwel\ business jrineiples? Yes.
H2."<70. Are most of youi' employees skilled mechanics or ori'inary workingmen? -
The majority are skihed.
."5237 I. !■ > your men work in gangs, and does any ])art of the work re(piiri' a certain
number of men to cany it on? -Yes.
.'52372. Have you evei' found that the (h'inking hal»it of one man will interfere with
the working of the wliole gang ' Yes.
32373. ]s that the reason why you will not have drinking men? — T have never had
that experience.
32.371. If you had .a gang of six or eight nien and one was a drinking man and
was regular at his work, would that he an inteiference with the working of the others \
— Not with the way we ai'range the work. We always calculate to hav ■ a du[)licate.
We run our business on that i)rinciple.
.32.37."). Still you would get ritl of a man of that sort, I sujipose ? — Yes.
32.37t). Speaking about your observation of the Dunkin Act, T understand you to
say that .some years have passetl since you were there ] — It was over ten years ago.
32377. Do you think tlu> prohibition of the li(|Uor traffic by the Dunkin Act or
similar enactments really induce drunkenness? - No, I would not like to .say that, but 1
regard the Dunkin Act as a farce.
32378. Is it not a fact that there may Ije .some defects in the appliances for its
enforcement ? — Tliere may be.
Freukiuck W. Thomp.son.
lU
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1804
lil
■? __
h'tiiiii
with
irlm.l
iuid
IlKM-S l
peate.
loll to
let <»r
Ihut 1
L)r its
.■$2.S79. Or iiuUfterciifc on tin' part of otlieials. Perhaps \ou do not remember?-
I do not renieiiilx'r.
:t2.'{f<U. Did you say li(|iior
)litainal)l(' imch-r *he l)un.>in Act ! -Yes.
.32.SiSl. Was it less easily oljtainahlc under tiie license law than it was uinlei' the
J)unkin Act ,' There was i
uore '.'•enera
1 sol
)rietv.
.■}2.'{^J. Woukl it i)e hecause in the oiu' case men "et the drink rei-'ularlv and in the
other there were spurts of (h'unkennei
It may I
.■5'_':{S."$. Do you hold that under a ])roliii)itorv enactment a man i;ets ilrink only once
in awhile, whereas under the license law then- is more rei^ulai' drinkinf; ? -Of course, it
is very dilhcult for me to answer that ijuestion.
.■|2;iS4. There is the other fact, that whe
n a couhuuni'y is under proli
ihiti
drunk'Mi man stands out very noticeably, whereas that is not the ca >' when the com
lity is under license law and men are allowed to drink. Of course y
ou w<
add
mu-
notice
drunkenness in a ijrohibition counnunity when we would not be struck by it in li license
comnmnity '
n a p
-My own opinion of prohibition as atjainst lici
•use s, that the verv fact
that it is made dithcult to obtain liipior, would lead to j;reater demoiali/.ation, to ^'rcater
ci'ime iind breaking of the law.
.■(•J.'JS,"). Do you attribute the sobiiely of Winnipeg to the fact that the drink trade
i.s licensed in the city ? — We have not had ])rohibition here, and it is pretty hard tf»
judge of tiie law. '
.S2.'{S6. Then you cannot coi.ipare the two? — Comnmnities may be difl'erent, and
tl
lere n
lav be ditierent classes of
peoi
;i"_'l587. Would you .-ittriljute the sobriety of Winnipeg to the facilities th.it are p
ro-
vided foi" piircha.-(ing drink, if a man i'j disposed to get (h'ink ; or would you atti-ibute
the sobriety to other intlueiiccs that have operated on the p(>ople, so that they refrain
from drinking? I would jirefer to give my impression as to the general sobriety of
W
tht
,-lr
iinipeg more ti'om tlie staiul]>onit ot general prosperity. J i)elieve tliat wliere
community is generally prosperous the people attend in a larger degree to sobriety.
.■<l:."?iS(S. Is not the other side true: where people are less sober there is a less
tendency to prosperity 1 --That might also apply ; still I think the tendency of e,\treme
<lepression is to creatt- insobriety.
32389. You think ukmi would be more discouraged ?— Yes.
32390. As a business man Eiiid one having the management of one of the largc^st
l)usiness houses and industries here, are you able to express ar opinion as to the ert'ect
which the drink track', as established, lias on business generally? T do not feel that I
should express myself on that point : I think it is a very wide question.
•'i2.'5i)]. It is a }>urely business (luestion, and I ask the (juesiion from yor purely as
a business iiHin ? -I have not made a study of it.
32392. As to compensation : you think the brewers and distillers mii;ht well be
compensated if prohibition were enacted. Suppose in the change <if the taritl' law, your
business were injured anil i)rai'tically destroyed, do you think your linn should be compen-
.s.'ittd ? — 1 do not think the time has come yet when it is necessary to consider that matter.
32393. Yours is .-i legalized business, of course? '>''e are not paying a license.
Rev. Dr. MciiEOI). That places you in a srronn r position, for the brewers and
distillers pay licenses simjily for twelve months and i: the end of twehe months they
may go out of business.
.Ifiniic McDonald. .Nor does the law reipiliv you to provide a certain kind of
material or apparatus.
Bi/ AVr. Dr. McLeod:
32394. The (juestion of trmh' is one that embraces all countries. Of course, in tlu^
e\ent of a prohibition law being made general throughout the Dominion, it would have
no effect on the manufacturing interests of other countries. So it may be stated that
the plant might be removed to another country and brewers and distillers might have
the opportunity of carrying on there, as a legitimate business, a iiusineas which then
would lie shut out here? Is it not a fact that every busine.ss man takes risks when he
invests his capital? — That is true.
115
lb
I 'li
I I
X\
w-
'! 1
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
3239"). He takes risks in r('},'ai d to tlie (.•han<,'ps in tlie tariff and other matters 1 —
Take our own business : we iniglit have to adjust our business to meet tlie clianj^ed con-
ditions of the tariff.
3'230G. Of course tiiat would involve loss? -It would involve loss, and we niif^ht be
coni]ielled to reduce our wages or to reduce the cost of our raw matei'ial. We might
not be driven out of the business, but at all events, we might be compelled to meet the
changed conditions.
3'2307. Do you think that if employees were compelled to accept reduced wages
tiiey would also have a fail' claim for compensation, or if the fai'mers were compelled to
take less jjrices for their raw material, they wou.d also have a fair claim foi' compensa-
tion? — If the market failed owing to the changed ccmditions, 1 do not think that would
apply.
32398. I will not press tin; (|Uestion further, but T thought you had gi\en some
thought to it as a business man, and I only put this ([uest.on because it might seem to
some people that all these things are on the same footing ; and if there is any ililier nee,
the di.stillers and brewei's might not seem to have the same claim, because tneir business
is different from the others in this, that it is subject to restrictions and subject also to
license from yeai" to year, and they have to obtain authority from year to year to con-
duct their busines.s, whereas your business goes on without any special authority, no
one denying your right? — Yes.
By Jiuh/e McDonald :
32399. Your business, of course, niiglit be closed by the enactment of a trade law.
Supposing the Dominion Parliament passeil a law directing that you should not m inu-
facture tlour for the future, would you noi consider that Parliament, as representing the
country, should remunerate you? — I should certainly do so.
32400. It must be remembered that we are not sjieakini; now of the results of legis-
lation iniiirectb , but of legislation directly, at a pfju'ticular business with a view nf sup-
pi'essing it, and <it a business which has been legalized and is legalized to-dav. The
question arises whether in this connection it would not be just to make com|)ens.ition to
paities whose capital is invested in the business? — My opinion of the matter is, tliat there
should be compensation given when the (Jovernment by legislation takes steps tc» close
up entirely a business. Of couise, a vast amount of money has been expended in build-
ings and so on.
Bi/ Her. Dr. McLeud :
32401. Do you understand there is any difference between a man factory for Hour
and a distillery or breweiy ; arc* they diHerent in cliar.icter? In what wav
32402. Does their legitimacy differ ?-Ye.s.
32403. Your industry is riyht in the very luiture of things, I -uppuse? — Yes.
32404. The other is a legalized busiiu'ss, which has the aul liuiity of the (iover'n-
ment from year to year I — Yes, and is thus recugnizeil.
P.
Fhkdkrick W. Thomphon.
116
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ANDREW DYKEH, '»f Wimiipej^, Tea Merchant, on ht-iiigduly s worn, deposed as
follows ; — ■
Jiy .ImJgp. McDiniahl :
.'{240"). How long have you resided in Winnipeg? — A little over 10 years.
;V2406. Did you come here tV(im one of tlie other provinces ? -I came here from
Massachusetts.
;i2107. Have you been all the time since you came here engaged in the same line of
business? — Not all the whole time ; T have been seven years engaged in the same
line.
.■?210S. Ai'e you in tiie wliolesale or retail ? — In the nstail.
."ililOy. Have you evei" lived in a country where prohiljition was tlie law? — I have
lived in localities where proliibition was in force.
.'i2H0. Wliere? — Tn Melrc.,(>, Massachusetts. Tliere was local option there.
.■{■J411. Wa-i it continued from year to year by tiie vote of the ])ec»ple ? — Yes.
32ir2. How iaige a phice is it (-—The jjopidation is 5,000.
•■V_'41."i. Is it a township or a town ? — It is a town.
-■i'-'tll. Ts it g(j\eriied l)y a Mayor and Council, or by Select Men? — Neither.
.■5l'415. Wiio governs the atl'airs of tlie town? — Tlie men are more like Commis-
sioners.
324 10. Do you hold a town's meeting? — Yes.
32417. How was prohibition carried ? — Jiy the vote of the jieojile.
.'5241(^. Is a vote taken of necessity every year ? — No, every third year they have
a right to repeal the law ; but it was never repealed while T v.as there.
32419. Did the law w(.rk well ? ^Yes.
32420. Did it work well in regard to the sale of licjuor? — There were occasionally
breaches of the law.
32421. You have stated that the population was aliout 5,000 ; how large would
the territory he? Would it be oiu' mile each way? — It would pi'obably cover three and
a half miles or three miles s(juare.
32422. How was the law in that section nt' the i-oi'.:itry adopted ? —It was in con-
nection with license.
32423. So the people could bring it in or iiui, according to their own desire? — Cer-
tainly.
32424. Could the people bring in liquor for their own use / -Certainly.
32425. Then, prohibition would not pri-vent the sale and keeping foi' sale t' liquor?
— There was a hotel license.
3242G. What were the difficulties you encountered in ;;arryiiig out the law?— The
only difficulty we ever encountered was illicit sale.
32427. By whom was it carried on? — By houses of prostitution, generally.
32428. What class of people went into these houses to get li<iuor ?— Tlie best and
most intelligent. •
32429. Was no attempt made to stop them ? — Yes.
32430. Successfully ? — ^Yes, very successfully.
32431. Wert! they done away with altogctliei- ? -For the time being. The penalty
was 8100 tine, and on second conviction notice to <)uit. All the places win re li(juor
was sold svere (hsdared to be a puljlii' nuisance.
32432. Did new places spring up? -Occasionally.
32433. Would new people come in ? -Yery raniiy. The old peopK; would generally
stay there.
32434. Did the people of the mon; respectable cla.sses bring liquor in from other
places ? — No doubt they did.
32435. Then you came here, to Winnipeg. Have you had any experience of pro-
liibition in the North-west ? -No.
32436. How have you fouiul the license law work in Winnipeg: have ytm found
any ditliculty in regard to carrying it out? — Yes, I think we liave had great difficulties.
32437. Are you opposed to a license law ? — I am.
117
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■{l'4;<8. Do you consider it Ji sin to licpiisc the trartic ? I am nut able to say that
it is i-i;;ht to license the trattic ; I do not tliink it is right to license a wrong.
;J2 4.'59. From your point of view, the only correct course is entire prohibition ? —
Yes, entire prohibition.
.'{•21 to. Suppose you had the choice between a license law and no restriction, which
would you prefi .• / — I would vote for no restriction in preference to a license law. Its
deuioiiili/ing eff(!cts would remedy themselves.
;{2441. In case of non-restriction, you would not feel that you were bound, as a
citizen, by the making of the law / — No, if it became a matter of compulsion to lioose
between the two, I would vote for untrammelled sale. If it is a legitimate trade it
should not be licensed.
Ii2442. Holding youi' view, then, your choice would be total prohibition? — Certaiidy.
.S244.'i. In such a ca.se, would y<m make compensation to the distillers and brewers,
for the loss of their plant, in the event of a general prohibitory law being enacted ? — I
would not. No other trade recei^■es compensation if that trade is done away with.
.'i2444. NV'hat trade has been done a\Miy with ! ~1 saw the old stages running.
;5244r). What state did away with them .' — The railways.
;5244G. Then they were not done away with by legislation ?^Legislation for the
railways had to be carried.
;{'2447. No one prevented the stages from running, I believe. Supposing (}reat
Britain had decided that no man should drive a stage, but that the whole business should
be done away with, should not those people then have been compensated ? — That is
impossible. The equivalent was done, for laws were passed which drove the stage
Cf)aches away.
32448. How would you put a stop to the manufacture of intoxicating liquor — by
what instrumentality ? — By law.
.■?2449. If the Legislature, after licensing the stages and requiring a certain class
of stage to be run and other re(piirements to be fulfilled, had then turned round and
declared that no stages whatever should be allowed to run, would there not have been a
fair claim for compensation l No ; because they were licensed for a limited time.
."52450. And you take the same view in regai'd to the drink trade? — I have been in
the liquor trattic. A license was gi'anted to me for one year.
:{24r)l. To manufacture and sell ? — Yes.
.'52452. Where was it? — Fn Leeds, Yorkshire.
:524r);5. What did you manufacture? Beer ; for a period I was a brewer.
;52454. What was your output in a year? — I could not give you the output : it was
ten years ago.
.■524");"). How many barrels a year did you produce '. We would brew, perhaps, ten
to fifteen barrels a week.
.■52456. Did you sell them yourself ? -I was connected with three dillerent places.
The beer in Yorkshire is neai'ly all home-brewed.
32457. Then it is pure brew ? — Yes.
.'52458. Is it made from, hops ? —Pure hops and malt; but it is greatly adulterated
after it leaves the bi'ewei".
32459. So, at all events, you look upon the whole aiticle as impure? — No, I tliink
beer if pioperly brewed is pure.
324()0. Suj>posing such beer as you made was the only beer used, would you be
satisfied to have it used ? No.
32401. You would do away with it? — Yes, I think it is harmful.
324(52. Is it harmful from every point of view? — Yes.
324C.'5. So when you speak of the beer being puri% you mean the compounds were
pure? — Yes.
.'52404. Did you go out of the business before you left England ? — Yes.
32405. Did you become convinced of the wrong of it? \ did, it was a wrong all
the time I was in it.
.'52400. Did that strike you while you were in it. It did.
32407. Do you consider you were the cause of injury to your fellow men ? — I do.
Andrew Dykes.
118
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
32468. How long were you in this state of mind before you gave up brewing ? — For
at least two years out of the three.
32469. Then you gave it up ? — I did.
32470. So really it was a matter of conscience that compelled you to gi\f up the
traffic ! — Yes.
32471. And it was done by your own act, not by any l<'i;islation .' — Quite so.
Speaking i>i prohibition we had an instance in this city.
32472. What was that? — It was doing away with the license of the London Hotel
near the Canadian Pacitic Railway. The Canadian Pacific Railway employees largely
p(!titioned against granting the license, and the people in the neighbourhood also did so ;
and the license was not gi'antcd. There was no compensation given to the man, not-
withstanding the fact that the license was taken away, and h(^ was right in tiie city of
Winnipeg.
32473. What was taken away from him ? —The license.
32474. What else? — If you take away tlu; license he has nt) riglil to sell spirits and
li(pu>rs, and when he lost that, the house had to shut up.
32475. Have you any suggestions to inakt; to the Commission, from your experience
if the license law is to be kept in force ' I would
as to imj)ro\ements in the license law
have all laws enforced.
32470. Do you think the law is not enforced at ))resent ? — Uecidedly not.
32477. In what way? The law in Manitoba, as it stands, is a good law if it were
well enforced.
32478. You think, then, the officers do not enforce it ? — No, there is no officer
appointed to enforce it, or rather there is only one.
32479. Of course then, he has too heavy work to perform .' -Yes.
32480. Do you think the proper cour.se would be to have more <ifficers appointed by
the Government ?"- Yes, by the (jtovernment, and they could see that the law is properly
observed.
32481. If there is to be a license law, would you favoui- a I'igid and strict inspection
of liquors to see that they were i)ur(^? Yes.
32482. Have you considered the ([uestion of liigh license
number of licenses issued ?---The numbei' is limited now.
3248.3. I mean a limitation of the numbei' so as to bring
limit? -I woidd )ii'efer anything that would limit the number:
them at all, but 1 would certainly limit the numiier
32484. Are there any other suggestions you desi
do luit know of any.
Bd Rev. Dr. MrL'od:
3248:"), You evidently hold strong ojiinions as to the ciiaracter of the drink trade,
that it is not beneficial to humanity in any respect'! — That is what I say.
32480. Have you noticed tliat the li(|uor trade, as carried on, affects other branches
of business ? — Yes, I have.
32487. Are tiiev affected injuriously or l)i'iielicially .' Injuiionsly.
32488. In what way? Men who drink do less trade and are uiuible to pay tlieir debts.
32 189. Do you find that v i be a genei'al state of things ?- Yes.
32490. Do you tind the drink trade as establisiied affects the value of property?
and a limitation of the
t down to ii \ery snuvU
I would rather not have
riie fewer we (lave the less evil,
to the Commission ? — I
—Yes.
32491
In wh
_ lat way ? I notice that in every city ; in the coinimmity where the
aristocracy live, they will have no licenses there.
32492. Does the granting of licenses affect the value of property in the business
parts of the city ? For e.^ample, will it affect the value of your jiroperty if there is a
saloon established alongside of it? — Yet, it affects the value.
32493. Does it depreciate it?- YVs, from a business point of view.
32494. Does it affci-t your insurance? — It does.
3249"). How is that? — When I was within one block from a saloon my insurance
was at the rate of !?2.r)0 on stock, whereas a littlti later on account of being next door
to a saloon, the Insurance Company charged !?-' '"
.<;).
119
s
I I
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
3249G. Was the proximity of the saloon tlie reason of tlie increase ? — That was the
reason they gave me.
32497. Then you liad to pay for being next to a saloon. Yes, and I got no com-
pensation.
;?24y8. So you have a claim for compensation 1 — I think so ; it was an injustice.
32499. I understand you to say that the license law in Winnipeg is not a success?
—Yes.
32500. Ts there much illicit selling ? — Yes, there is very considerable.
.32501. Do you think there is very general violation of the prohibitory provisions
of the license law in regard to selling after hours and on Hunday 'I — I do.
32502. From your observation, did you ever know of a place under the license law,
where tlu; proiiibitory provisions of that law were observed ? — I never did.
32503. Has it been your observation that the licensees sell whenever they can ? —
Always.
.32504, To whomsoever they can ?— To whomsoever they can.
.32505. Do you regai'd these eHbrts to oppose the liquor traffic to be in the interest
of a certain da.ss or in the interest of the welfare of the community ? — It the interest
of the welfaie of the connnunity.
32501). Supposing the liquor trathc was prohibited in Winnipeg, how would the
people be l)enetited l — They would be greatly enriched.
32507. How '/ — Tiie money spent on litjuor would be spent on articles that would
be of benefit, articles for the house and household comforts. A drunkard's home is
always a confortless home, and the drinker not only affects his own home but those of
others.
3250f<. Leaving drunkai'ds aside, have you noticed that men who cannot be called
drunkards but men who drink regularly, are injuriously affected by the habit 1 — Yes.
32509. Are they incapacitated for business? — Yes. A man who is not generally
l)elieved to be a drinker is often known to be one in his own house, long before, even
years before, it is known outside
32510. Do you think there are moderate drinkers who drink under cover ? — Yes,
in my own expei'ience of the business.
32511. Take the place in Massachusetts to which you have referred, where local
option prevailed, and Winnipeg which has a license law, and compare the two places,
remembering the difftM-ence in population : which is the better system, prohibition oi-
license ? — Prohibition is by far the best .system.
32512. You think that if it is practically and .strictly carried out, it will show
greater benefits ? — Every man owns his own house there, and people are often attracted
to settle in such districts. There are several such localities surrounding Boston where
there is total prohibition in force.
32513 Then, in your opinion, prohibition enhances the value of property ? — Yes.
32514. Do you think as a business man that prohibition would be a desirable and
practicable measure in this country ? — Yes.
32515. Have you evei- thought about the revenue question : the country derives a
laigff revenue from the drink trafHc. In your opinion, would the people become insolvent
if they could not obtain these revenues ? — I think not. The revenue would be easier
raised without it.
3251(i. In what way would you adjust the matter ? — Our jails would be empty
and our police court machinery would not be needed.
32517. AVhat would become of the capital invested in distilleries and breweries,
and the fixtures of saloons and so on ; woi'.ld it lay idle ? — ^No, it would find investment
in the homes of the people.
32518. You think, then, there wor.ld be ample opportunity for investment ? — Yes
for all capital is needed.
32519. Then the money would not go begging here ? — No. My experience has been
that money does not go begging in this country.
Andrkw Dvkes.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
QECRGE F. GAULT, of Winnipejj
deposed iis follows : —
Wholesale Mercluuit, on beiiiy duly swuiii
By Judge McDomild : ' ■
'i'2'y>0. What is your Ijusiiiess or occupation ? —I am a wholesale nierchaiit, and T
iiave in connection with my business a licpior department.
32.12 1. As a grocer, you ai'e en<j;afi;('d in the wliolesale business? — Yes.
.'^2.522. And isyoui' li([uor department also wliolesale ? — Yes.
.■$2J)2;J. The license you hold would be similar to that of a shop license. What is
the smallest quantity you are allowed to sell ? — 1 could not say. 1 take no active part
in the li(|uor department. I think a (juart.
.■$2524. Is it in uidiroken packages 1 — I think so.
32525. How long have you been a resident of Manitoba? — Between 10
II
years.
3252(5. Have you been in business dui'ing all that time ? — Yes.
•"$2527. During all the time you have been in Manitoba, have you lived in Win
nipeg ?— Yes.
.'52528. Have you noticed any change in the social customs of the people '! — I thin.k
they are steadily improving in every way.
.'5252!). Do you find Winnipeg to be a sober ])lace ? -Y'^es, exceedingly so in my
opinion.
.'325.'50. Does it compare favourably with other places ? — Yes.
32531. You refer to places where you have travelled ? Yes, 1 have lived in
Toronto and I have travelled a gf)od deal.
.■{2532. Have you ever lived in a place \vhere a prohibitory law was in force ? — I
have \isited places whei'e tlie Duidcin Act was in force : in those days, I think the
Dunkin Act was in force in Ontario.
.32533. That was before the Scott Act came in ? -Yes ; I have also travelled in
Ontario, not on business, through counties whei'e the Scott Act was in force.
.3253-1. What was the result !)f your obsei-vations in those places where those laws
were in force ; was there any sale of liipior for beserage purposes ? — 1 never knew any of
those laws to interfere with the sale of li([Uor ; in fact, I hav<! always found it more
ditlicult to refuse to drink when one of those laws was in force in a place, than elsewhere
where the license law was in force.
32535. Have you had any e.Kperience in tht; working of a prohibitory law in the
North-west Territories? — I was in the Territories during the time the; law was in force.
32536. Was it jiossible then to obtain licjuor for beverage i)urposes ? — Yes.
32537. Did you notice in the connnunities wliere t\w license" law was in force that
the (juality of the liquor was as good as that obtained in the city? — 1 ne\('i' noticed any
difference. My experience in the Territi>ries was, of course, limited.
32538. Have you made the license law in force her'e a stuJy as to its provisions?
— Not as to its provisions.
32539. Have you studied the question of prohibition? — t havt; thought a good d(!al
.ihout it.
.32540. Are ■. ou favourable nr unfa\uural»le to it .' I am unfavourable to enforced
[irohibition.
32541. Unfavourable to a l.iw tha* .voukl j)rohibit the manufacture and sale of
li(|Uoi' for beverage pui'jioses ? — Yes.
32542. From your experience and ob.servation, do you believe such a law could be
pjissed and practically enforced ? -No.
32543. In case such a law should be pass.d, do you think remunt laiion should be
made to brewers and distillers for the loss of their plant and machinery ? — Certainly I
do. t think if the public wish to make ex])eriments of that kind they should be carried
out at the expense of the public. I think the business of brewing has been carried on
so long, and with other sinular businesses existed so long, that they ought to be
respected.
I
irii
! -i :
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
32r)44. Have you ever tnivj-llcd in Fnincc ? Yes.
32545. Have you noticed the customs of the jx'ople in reyarcl to (lrinkin>{ alcoholic
liquors ? — My stay in France was a short one, and I am not able to express an opinion
in regard to *',e matter.
.'$2540. The Commissicjii would be glad to receive any suggest i< ins you could offer in
regai-d t<t tin; (jiiestion of tll(^ li(|Uor tratlic and its regulation /—-I think the (;xcessi\e use
of litjuoi' is an evil. My opinion is that heavy duties siiould be placed on spirituous
liquor.
32547. W(juld you favour the reduction of the duties on light wines, and also with
a view to tin; encouragement of their use ? - I do not think the Anglo-Saxon race care
anything about light wines and svill not drink them. In my r)])inion the consumption
of more ale should be encoui'aged to sonie extent, and it should be made cheaper than
strong drink. I think ale is beneticinl to most people.
32548. Have you considered the question which a|)pears not to have been dealt
with, partimdarly in otlitM' parts of the country, but which is now being dealt with in
INFontreal, that is, of |)roviding in each city some amusement in the shape of parks for
the peo))le'l -I think such things are a benefit, if properly conducted.
32549. [ suppose your city has not yet attained that growth which would make it
necessary t(j provide such parks and amusements? — No.
32550. Of cour.se, when your city has attained to the size of Montreal, it will be-
come an absolute necessity? -J think such parks are a benefit, if properly conducted.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
32551. Is the lic(!nse law well observed in Winnipeg? — J cannot express an
opini<in, becau.se 1 really do not go about the city. I believe it is observed in Winnipeg
fairly well, but of course that is merely hearsay.
32552. Have you an ac(|uaintance with any conuuunity that enables you toex])ress
an oj)inion as to whether a license law is anywhere well observed l>y the licensees? — I
could not answer thai ([uestion.
32553. It has been in evidence, so fur as Winni[ieg is concerned, that there are
very general violations of the prohibitory ])i'ovisions. 1 refer to the provisions respecting
sale after hours and on Sunday .' I have seen nothing of it myself, but I could not say
it was not .so.
32554. You have expres.sed yourself as being in favour of high licen.se. Why do
you favoui- high license ? — I think the tendency to reduce the number of pectple engaged
in the business and to reduce the nund)er of people who are authorized to sell licpior, is
to caust! licensees to endeavfiur to carry out the law, because no doubt a man who pays
a very high license will, for his own defence, be obliged to see that people who do not
hold licenses are not selling li(|uor. It would be a matter of business with him.
32555. Do you think the licensees would become informers in that case? — T do not
know what steps would be taken, but I think high license wouhl tend to prevent the
illicit sale of liijuor.
3255(). It has been held by some peojile, that high license, instead of preventing
illicit sale, would probably lielj) it, for this reason ; A man who pays a high license
occupies a high class [)lace and attracts the better class of drinkers, but there is a cer-
tain class who will not resort to such j)laces, they want humbler places, and they will
freiiuent places seven feet by nine feet. High licen.se, instead of interfering with illicit
sale, w()uld simply cause such small places to be started, because there will be a demand
for them by the lower classes ? — I do not think there is anything in that argument.
The am(junt of trade from the lower classes, to which you refer, would warrant one or
more places, according to the population, but the business would probably be as profit-
able, although better conducted, as it is at present.
32557. What ire the advantages of having a few jilaces engaged in the trade? — I
think they would be better conducted ; there would be higher classes of saloons and
hotels — the business usually operates in that way.
32558. Hav(> you known of a high license law being successfully carried out in any
place? — My experience has been very limited.
(tEOUGE F. Gault.
122
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
are
do
IS
nut
the
L-(Mise
cer-
will
Illicit
iiiind
lient.
le or
Kitit-
I?— I
and
any
■'SlT)")',). The sugj^cstioii has imeii niado to raise the |irii'f ot' drinks ? ^'es, I ccr-
tainly would do so.
32060. Would that shut out cortaiii persons t'l'oni ^^cttin;; drink? I think it would
tend to prevent indiscriminate drinking, which is doing a great deal of injury and which
has heen a great evil.
JilT)))!. Is the high class bar-room a prctmoterof treating, or does it deterdrinking '.
— I think it deters it to some extent.
'^'I'AVl. l)o you tliink high class places lead men to go in and take what is called a
"soldier," or do they go in groups,' — -Very often they go in i)airs , but that is not what
I meant by indisi-i-iminate treating; I meant tiie pratice, whieli used to la^ in \<>j,'ui', of
inviting people who happen to Im^ present to diink. That practice is dying out.
.'52r)().'i. in raising tlie price of liquoi', has it occurred to you that it miglil i)e legis-
lating against the pool' man, who miglit claim that he had as much right to <lrink as tli"
rich man .' I do not think there is anything in that argument. You cannot prcNcnt a
rich man, if he is detormined to have li(|Uor, from obtaining it : he will get it if he has
to go out of the country to get it.
.■$2o()-l. I think you said that in your ol)servation of the Scott .\ct and the l>unkin
Act it was iliHicult to decline ollei's to drink. If it wore more ditlicult to avoid drinking
wliere the trade is illegal, w!iy i.s it less ditlicult to declint? where the trade is licensed ?
— I have found in such places a great deal of bitter feeling and ill-feeling prevailin;;- in
the comnui'iity. The connnunity in such cases becomes divided into two classes, those
who rebel against the law and those who want tin; law enforced. It is veiy dillicult to
avoid biMng on c>!ie side or the otlu^r, and the man who is a moderate di-inkei', or rather
takes a drink when he feels inclined, cannot very well join in with tlu' total abstainers,
and therefore it is more ditlicult for him to avoid dr'inking when he is asked to di'ink.
;{2r)().">. r)o you think it right that people who desire total proliibition should sul)mit
to those who are against it ? -I think any one who makes a nuisance of himself, or who
is disorderly, should be punished. H(>spectable peojih^ should be ]irotected, ami the law
should impose sutlicient penalties to suppress an improper state of things.
."{^oOO. Can you state further anything in regard to prohibition in the North-west
Territories? Prohibition in the Territoi-ies, from all 1 have seen and heard, led to
excessive drinking. The people did not know what moderation was at least a great
many did not. When a person obtaineil a supjily, amounting to two oi' three gallons in
a keg, it would almost at once be consumed. When a p 'I'.son obtaiiu'd liquor there on a
perniit or by having it smuggled, he invited his friends and t!iey drank to excess. That
was my ex])erienc(* up there.
'■V1^)C)~ . Was not the power of issuing permits iiidi.scriiiiiiiately exercised? — 1 do n(.t
think s(j. I think it was rather ditlicult in son'e cases Ic, get permits.
32508. According t(j the ofHcial retui'iis, the (piantity increased very rapidly, fiom
0,000 gallons in 1SS3, to 15,000 gallons in 1890, and the poj)ulation did not incr»'ase in
that ratio ?-^- In 1883, we iiad no connnunicatif)n with the North-west. TIk; settler in
the North-west lived a three or four weeks' joui'ney away from any place, and could not
get liquor, and so I suppose it was not consumed in those eaily days, sitiqily l)ecause it
could not be obtained.
3250!). You have said that Winnipeg is an exceptionally soljer place: what makes
Wi\Hiipega sober [)lace ? — I think the |)eople of the city are above the average. They
are all nearly busily occupied.
325<0. Do you think the licensed trade contributes to the sobi icty of the city/ 1
do not know exactly. The sale o"' li(pior(loes not contribute to the s)bi'iety (if the place
orotherwi.se; ja'obably tluM'e would be moi'c or less abuse of li(|Uov if we had not the
license system as at [.>resent.
32571. Y'^ou are led to believe that from what knowledge? — From my experituice
in the North-west Territories and all T have leai-nt and seen in the east.
32572. I beliBve you did not favoui" prohibition in the North-west Territori«'s at tl e
outset? — I am no, sure that it was not a good thing at the outset. I am rather inclined
to think it was.
32573. What were the conditions ? — A sparsely settled coiinti'y with a large terri-
tory. During the building of the railway thousands of men were employed, and it was
123
I ;
^m
ifl
I
Liquor Tiuffic — Manitoba.
|)i'()liiiltly an advantii;;!' to keep li(juor away from iheiii. T kmnv we all felt at thn time
that siicli wiiH tlic cast'.
.'?2r)74. Would tilt' introduction of litjuor have created disturbances? -I tliiiik if
you iiave three oi- four thousand workinj^nien toju'ether and allow them to obtain as
iiiuc-h li(|Uor as they want, it has that tendency.
.'{lT)?.'). 'I'lierc^ are a ;{ood iiumy thousands of men in \\'inni|»e<; /md there is |)ro-
vision made for them to i;et li(]Uor liere ; do(^s it liave the same tendency/ — No, tiiey
liave their homes and their settled ficcupations, and of course it is did'erent.
.■JlTiTC). I)id you find any dillerenee in the licjuor trade in th(^ North-west during
the j)rohibition jieriiMl as compared with now, or does not your trad(^ extend into the
North-west f— Yes.
'■\'2'>n. Were your sales laif^er then than now? — They have been larger undei" the
license system, that is west of here.
.'S^^TH. Was the great bulk of liijuor that was sent into the North-west during pro-
hibitory years smuggled in, carried in through illegal channels acrross the border, an<l
when the license system was inaugurated, lii|Uor was taken in for the purpose of supply-
ing stoics f Was the supply in the Territories very much larger then ? -The <|uantity
of liipior sent into the Territories could not bt; compared with that sent in in former
years, because what was .sent in in the old days was sent in and consumed at once,
whereas now it is held and consumed as it is recjuired.
.'il'.^Tl). Have you ob.served whether the li((Uor trade, as carried on h(!re and else-
wheie, is evil in any degree? — That is a dithcult (juestion to answer. The abuse of liiiuor
is evil, and if a retail dealer is to be held responsible for the abuse of liquor it is a great
pity, but I do not hold that he is responsible.
.■?2r)8(). You think the tradt; is not responsible for the evils that result from the
excessive or immoderate us(^ of liijuor? — That (piestion is al.s(( ditlieult to answer. No
doubt, in somt? cases it is. In other ca.ses a properly regulated trade regulates moderate
drinking. A properly conducted license .system is pi-eferable to any attempt to enforce
prohibition, that is neither palatable nor popular with the people.
.'{l'.")81. You have spoken about a properly worked trade. What restrictions and
regulations woid«l you place upon the trade? — It would require more consideration than
1 have given to the various Acts at present in force to answer. I could jiot express an
opinion on it.
.'52.182. Why is it that this trade is distinguished from all other trades, and needs
st) much regulating? — Uecause people are apt to use too much strong drink, and it is
only right thivt it should be regulated.
;5258.'<. Do you know any lega ized business that has to be regulated and restricted
in the same way ? — Not in this country. Where opium is used, it will probably have
to be regulated in a similar ma'iner.
.'}2r)84. Do you put the us.e of opium and that of liquor on the same basis? — I be-
lieve the use of opium is fully as dangerous as the use of liciuor. If it were possible to
enforce prohioitiun, and I do not think it is possible, I believe thiit the people would
use opium.
.■)2585. Fs thai one I'eason why you are not in favour of prohibition, lest pro-
hibition might lead to the use of opium?— That is one rea.son, but only one, and that is
a remote one.
15258(1. Is there any other legalized trade that has the same harmful tendencies as
the liquor trade? No, I do not recollect any.
.'52087. Why is the li(juor trade so restricted, and why is it necessary to compel
those engaged in it to submit without protest to the restrictions? — I have already
answered why the trade is illicit, and I cannot see why those engaged in it timidly sub-
mit to the restrictions.
.'52.588. Do you believe that the liquor licensees are, generally, law observers ? — I
know many of ti'em are.
32589. Supposing the will of the people were exercised in favour of j)rohibition
and a prohibitory law w-ere enacted, I suppose it follows that the licen.sees would discon-
tinue the busine.ss ? They would discontinue doing business under license.
Gkohgk F. Gault.
194
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32''i!)0. How woultl tlicy do it .' Sonic would do it illicitly arid oilicis would yivc
up the business. You woulil (li'ivc tlic rcs|icctii.lilc clement out of it, imd tiieir pliiccs
would l)e tilled l)y others wli(» were not so scrupulous.
.■{■_'r)'Jl. You rc;;iir(l those who ciii-ry on husiiipss illicitly as liein<,' not of the lespcct-
ui)lt) class ( -I would not iuiaijine they were.
.'{^ol)'-'. What is your opinion of those who under license laws violate continually
the |)rohil)itive provisions of tin; license law ; are they of a re|)Ut<'ihle class / I do not
know anything; ai)out supposed vicjlations of the law. I do not know wiiat the law is
and whethei' it- is violated cir not, so 1 cannot answer that i|uesti()n intelliycnl ly, it is
all liwirsay.
.'<'_'.")i(.S. Will you state lirielly your ohjections ton jprohihitory law ?^f think it is
deiiioralizini; to a connnunity. It raises all soi-ts of ill feelini; in the connnunily, and
the experiences of the past have pointed how \ery willinj.; people may lie to vott! for
pi-ohil)itory laws and yt;talmost at the lirst opportunity they have invarial)ly e.xpres.sed a
contrary opinion. Considerinj; that, fact, and the furtlMU* fact tiiat all the pressure is
brought to l)((aron one sid(\ that is on the side of tein|)eraiice. I think those \oies when
tlu\v arc registered against prohil)ition should be conclusive, as they exjucss the opinion
of the pe(»ple.
.■$2")y4. Do you think that the prohil)ition of the trade would be more deniorali/injL;
than the continuance of the trade as it is now .' -Yes.
.'{l'.")!)."). Would enforced |)rohibilion do j^ood ? - T do not believe that it is possible
to enforce ])rohibition.
;{2")!l(). !)(» you think that it is a benetit / If a nian was willing to deny hinisclf
the use of li(iuor, undouijtedly inmost case, it would be a benefit. Some things are
benchts tinil suww things are indulgences ; bu I do not think that if you tried to pre\('nt
a man from getting li([Uor, it would i)e a beneficial act to him.
.'{2i)!t7. Tlicre are, of course, a lot of unfortunates who are iniablc to deny them-
sch'es at all. Do you think it well to have .some law passed in their interest '. I think
those people will always get liijuor, until they are shut up.
.■}2r)!)8. |)o you think it would be well to shut them up 1 Would you be in favour
of providing inei)riate asylums for them ( — A good way to manage them would lie to
shut them up.
3ijr)l>'.». Would you favour tlu; establishment of inebriate asylums in w hich tho.se
respectablt^ and unfortunate peoi)le could be taken care of'! — Yes.
.'5J()U0. That (juestion was asked of one witness who appeared before the C'onnni.s-
sioM, who said lie would favour the establishment of inebriate asylums if tiiev were
used t() incarcerate the men engaged in the trade. What is your opinion / I do not
tliiiik so. It is about as sensible as some other suggestions I liav(( hcai'd.
3J(')0I. Do you think it would be well for the Government to provide inebriate
asylums for the care of those who, by reason of their drink habit, are unable to take care
iif themselves, and who come before the police coui'ts and go to jail and afterwards
again appear in court .' — Yes, 1 think it would.
."{lidUL'. Would you make the care of those inebriates a charge against the trade :
that is supposing it creates those men'? — I think tile trade already contributes the bulk
of the taxes of the country, and some of tlie money might be ]irotitably expended in
that way.
.'VJt)0.'5. Does till' trade or the jieople who support the tradi; contribute tiie bulk of
the taxes ,' - No doubt the consumer pays the taxes of course it goes back to him.
•S2()04. There was a plebiscite in .Manitolia a little while ago ; do you "egard the
result of the poll as being significant ,' - No.
.S'JGO-). For wliat reasons '/-I think experience has shown that such a vote could
be carried anywliert; where the people have not had any experience of the two systems,
and experience lias shown that such an Act could not- be carried where the people iiave
had experience of tlie two systems.
3:2GU(). Is that strictly correct i — Perliaps it is not strictly correct, but it is ahiiost
entirely the case.
.■5l'()07. Have you noticed that in Maine theyliave had a prohiliitory law during 40
years and after it was repealetl, it was re-enacted, and tiieu ran on more or less for 25
125
1 'i
■ 1 I.
i l;
liiquor Traffic — Manitoba.
yt'fii"'^, iiiul tlif ]M'(i|>lf ilicn look it tVoai tlic statutt'liook mid |itil it in tin- dmstitii-
t ion of tlic Stiilc liy II niiijorily of .'tO.OOO, 'I'licic is ;i ciisf wImtc tliti |ico|iir had cxiif-
rit'Mcc of |)i'oliiliit' in for ii •,'cnfi'!ition andllicy ntill were in fiivour of iiloptin^ it. Iowa
furnislitMl iinollicr illustnition of the sanic kind .' l liavc alwiiys iindci'.stood tluit li(|Uor
can I)*' liiid in tlioHt> States, and so Ion;; as lii|iioi' can Wo had, the iieoplc who want, it
will not I'aisf any ^rcat olijection to any law, iiowcvcr nnicli it was attfm|itcd ttj Im
onfoiri'd.
3■J(iO^<. l)o you think a law in oi-dcr to lie a success, nnist In- alisolutclv cnforci'il (
—Yes.
.SJ()Oi). Is thi'i'c any law al»solutfly cnforcod ? Porhaps 1 coidd answer that (|ues-
tir)n liy saying' liiat any othfi' law would not he tla^'rantly violated.
.HL'tllO. If a law is \iolated nioi'e oi' less, and even if there is a eonsiderabln pm-cent-
afje of violations, is not that a proof of the value of the law / It depends on what the
crime is and what tlii^ infractions ui'e -it depends on whetiier it runs a;;ainst the com-
mon .sense of the people.
'•\'2i\\ 1. As a mattei' of fact, is there any law. moral or civil, that is ahsolutely en-
forced and ohsiuved '. I suppose there is no law that is not liroken occasionally.
.'i'JOl'J. You would not repeal all laws if they were not thoi'ou;.'hly ohserved liy the
people as a whole, if they were enacted for tin? general >;ood of the ^'reater nund)er I
cannot associate a proiiihitory law with any other law ; there is rn> similarity to my
mind hetween such a law and another law.
.■Jl'Cii;!. ^'ou are opjiosed to prohiliition on inisiness principles, I suppose? — No; I
have always been opposed to it, even when 1 was not in business.
■JliOli. Would not your personal interests influence more or less your views ? —
No, I do not think .so ; they would not influence my views at all.
Bi/ Judye McDonaJd :
'.\:H\]'). You have never made a study of the Maine law personally? No.
y^tild. Do you know that under that law people may obtain all the li(|Uor they
wi.sh for bevera^'e jiuiposes so long as they do not buy it in the State? — I do not know
much about the Maine law, but T have heard thdt lifjuor was distributed freely in M. '»"
■'{■_'(11 7. The prohibition of the manufactui'c, importation aiul sale of into.vicatm;;'
be\era;,'es is. therefoi'e, something different from the Maine law, for under that law
liipior is allowed to be imported so long as it is not sold oi' kept for sale, t»nly for per-
sonal use, in a person's own cellar or elsewhere, as is the case under the Scott Act.
Could you, if you were dealing with the <|uestion and making a comparison with the
Maine law, comjiare it with total prohibition : or would you not have (o go on a diller-
ent platform entirely in dealing with the case ? — I am not a believer in total prohibition.
.'5"_'018. In dealing with the matter, what views might influence [leople in tiit^ viola-
tion and in the observance of such a law, if it were in force ? Would you hope for a
better enforcement of a law which jtrohibited merely local sale and keeping for sale, the
jieople in the meanwhile being able to obtain li(|Uor from outside, than <if .sucii a law as
is j)ropose(i ? SujJpos*' there was an Act pas.sed jiroviding that no man should manufac-
ture, import OI' sell licjuor, would such a law bemon; fairly enforced than the Maine law
or the Scott Act ? — The law that would prevent the importation altogether would be
more fairly enforced than a law which allowed free importation from other parts of the
Dominion and allowed people to do what they liked with li«|Uor, so long as they did not
(sell it.
32619. Take a law that merely prevented them having it for .sale as compared with a
law that prevented them having it at all : which of those two laws would the people be
more ready to obey 1 — T df) not believe they woukl obey either of them. If li((uor was
imiMirted into the country, you could not prevent people selling it.
.■Jl'G'iO. Would you not be in this position : that a large number of people who were
able to l)ring all the liquor they wished from other places, would view with a great deal
of complacency infringements of the law that did not affect them.selves ? — People would
consider that was not fair treatment, and the law would not ha\e the moral support that
an ordinary prohibition law has now.
George F, Gault.
126
67 Victoria.
Seasional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
•'V2I)'JI. I iitulfi'stHiiil tliiit villi liiiM
liv.'d
II CllUIlt IV wlici'c (I |l|(l|
iliiliit
niv
law WHS ill t'orrc, to ii.sr»'i'liiiii wlit'tlitT till' men wlm >u|ii«iii |>i'ii|iiliiiiriii mii^lit imt at
that very tiiiir luixr liiiimrs in tliric cellars for tlii'ir uwn n>
tlllMII lid SI I.
I I
iiiiK a ;'iiiiil inaiiv i>
.■(■_'<):.'■_'. Wiiiiid tl'i'V sii|i|iint Ji ]iinliil)itniv law tliat iliil mil all'i'i'l tin
I tliiiik
tlifV wiiuld 1)1' tircil nt' siicli a law M'IV smm, it' I licir iiiiivfiiiciils won- prrinaiii'iitiN iiiliT-
fert'd with.
.'i:i(i°_'|{, W'liuld lliat lia\t' tin* cUt'i't nt' making such a man's actimis si|iiari' with his
priifcssiiiiis ? I think they could not advocate it.
.'Si.'')'-' I. W'l' aic told tliu in Scnlt Ai't ccumiics in si unc cases |ieo|ile sii|i|Hirl the
Huott Act, hut at the same tniie they have what liiiuur they wish in their own cellars?
-I undei'stand that is the case many a tim
:{2(('_'5. IJllt Ihcv feel it to 1):
)e a ;;iiod Mini;; not to allow li(|iioi
to ll<
nei;;liltours or exjioscd for sah? ? I ha\e ;;reat ciinteiiipt for such |ieii|ili
.'{•_'()■.'(). If those men found a law was to he siilimit ted to |ire\ent tli
il to their
I'etlin;'
"I*
that
way, win
restrict their own su|i|
tl
lid ihey take the same line of action when the jii'(i|iosal was to
illes
l>v I mill
;;reat many would im i
douht
vote aitainst |wo
hihit
ion it
Dy I ml lot.
you think there is a ;ireat deal of hollow support of the law-
Yes. I
ley ciiuld do so
" .•iL'tlL'T. Do
think a man is ol)li;,'ed to take one side or the other in the community.
.'JlJCi'JH. Aliout illicit sale in places where there is prohiliit ion : do you think a
j;eneral prohihitory law would prevent it to some extent ( Would those men sell if
there was no demand by the people (rndouhtedly there is a demand.
Hi/ Rev. Dr. .UrLiod:
.'1262!). Should there be a provision hy Statute for every thinu; demanded liv the
peojile or hy any section of the people ? — It depends on the reasonableness of the
demand.
liy Jiiihji' McDonald :
.S2()30. Take the classes of men to svhom you referred, those for whom you thought it
would be proper to jiro vide inebriate asylums, persons who cannot restrict themselves: take
a community in which there is a large percentage of such people, whicli would be the
faiier course to adopt— to take liipior away from the vast bull: of the }io]iulation who
use it legitimately and moderately, or prohibit it altogether, in order to put it out
of the way of men who should not get it, or place persistent drunkards in asylums
and leave the others with their liberty / I think men addicted to drunkenness are
suflTering from a disease. I do not think they should be classed with men who take a
glass of beer or spirits in moderation.
.■$26.'U— '52. Do vou find that this business is different from all other businesses?
—Yes.
WITNESS came forward at a subseiiuent stage of tlie proceedings, and said ; I
wish to withdraw a statement I made this morning, without giving it sutlii'ient consi-
deration, and I do not wish it to go on record as part of my statement without any expla-
ation. The examination led up to the ijuestion of inebriate asylums, and tlie w.'iy in
which they should be supported. I believe T said that they should be supjiorted at the
jiublic expense. I had never given the (luestion such consideration as would enable me
to give an intelligent opinion on il. I would not object to express an opinion if T had
fully considered the matter ; but that is a large question and reijuires no doubt full (con-
sideration, and therefore I do not wish to go on rijcord as having expressed an opinion
that those asylums should be established and supported at the pulilic expense.
( l.i!
^n I
ill
iJi
127
2SiS^3^^n
laf^uor Tratfic — Manitoba.
\VM.
as follows
U. MULOCK, y.C, of Winnipeg, Barrister, on being duly sworn, deposed
By Judge McDonald :
.'VJ().'i."{. How long have you resided in Winnipeg? — About 10 years.
.■}2(K)4. J h 'ieve you previously lived in Toronto / — Yes.
326.^0. Did you live in Ontario when a prohibitory law was in force ?-^Niit that I
can recollect.
;52().'U). Since you came heie, have you noticed a change in the social customs of
the peoples in I'egard to the use of intoxicating li(|uor? — 1 have.
'•VliVM. Did you notice similar changes befoi-e you left Ontai'io, going Itack to the
earliest recollections you have, as to the quantity of wine used ? — I think there was a
steady iniprovcment.
."VJC:}!^. l)o you lind less wine now used at social gatherings and <at the table than
was foi'uierjy the cae I- -Decidedly.
:j20.'5i). And when you came to Winnipeg you found the state of things continued
here? — T did.
32040. How do you find the working of tiie license law here ?^ — It is looked upon
as more or less of a force by the people in the business, from all I hear and see.
32041. You think, then, that the observance they render to the law is more or less
comi>ulsory? — I cannot see tliat they observe it at all.
32(142. Then you think the law is broken? — 1 know it is.
32043 Do you mean in regard to the sale on Sunday ? — Yes, and after hours on
othei' days.
32044. How about sale to minors: is there .any trouble of that kind hei'e ?- — l do
not know if there is nmch of that done here, but I have known of young men being
found in saloons, young men who were under age. \ presume, when 1 say saloons, 1
do not know where else they could have gone astray.
3204*). Do you know whether there is any dithculty in this [)rovince in regard to
till' sale of iidulterated li(iuors? I know nothing about it.
32040. It is stated tiiat in the older provinces tnis is a great ditKcultv ? Yes.
32()47. Have you any suggestions to make in legard to the license law that would
make it moi'e erticient and enable it to be more elliciently observed? — I do n(tt think
any lici^nse law will be ol)served by saloon-keeper-i, as a rule.
.■')204S. Do you think that even if the license law were madt^ more stringent, it
wciuld siiMjily remain a dead letter? — I thiidc so. There is a general feeling that when
a busint'S', has lit;come legalized, no one wishes to turn informer on his neighbour in that
way.
320 10. Could any imiiro\enient lie made by securing more efficient inspection and
by the a|i|iniiit incnt of some officers to carry out the law; would that be a ste]) in tin;
direction of making llie la v mortM^fficient? -If theiX' wer(! moi'e officers and they ditl
their duty, the law would be better observed.
320 0. We iia\(' lieen told by one or two witnesses that theiH! is really oidy one
ollicci in Manitoba as Inspt'ctor? That statement is hardly (Mirreet, as I understand the*
matter. It may l.a\t' been tbe case until a short tim(! ago, probalily U'ltil within the
last month or six weeks. I understand, however, that there ha- been a (K|)utv appointed
at Iharuioii and it.iother at Portage la Prairie, But the facts connected with the
Inspector 1 understand mcs that there has only l)een one Inspector foi' the whoU;
province and his allowance for expenses was a mere bagatelle, and it was really an office
that should not be on the statute book until it wiis pvojH'rly ccnistituted.
32(ir)|. A witness was called this nmrning who stated that there was a provision in
the law for the ap])ointnient of a local otlicer. but the salaiy had to be raised by the
tiixpavvTs, and this was found to be a burdtsn? — I believe that is the cast: there is
something of the kind, but I am not (|uite sure of the duties of the person.
320r)2. ft has been stated by Mr. Clarke that the officer could be ))aid out of the
local funds for his services (—-I know Inf. Clarke, in answer to my repeated complaints,
Wm. R. Mff.ocK.
128
Vu
ill'
i\i\
57 Victoria.
iSessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
1(1
thiiil'
it, it
.vlu'ii
tliat
and
(I tlu
hin
tho
led
111 thi!
iliolo
ortice
kioii 111
U!
tl
lieie is
.f the
mints,
has statPtl that notiiini; was bi'i;;^ don*- to cnt'orcc the law l)ec!iuse \w liad ni>t tlic iiicaiis
at his disposal.
32653. Do you know wlictlitM' the city |)olict! t'lideavum- to ent'nrcf the law ; Not
at all.
32(jr)4. Do 3'ou assist in any way the orticci's to cnt'orcc the liocnsi law and sec that
it is observed ?--I dt> not believe in the license law.
32655. Do you look upon the licensiiiji,' of the business as a sin '/ I do.
3265C. Are you connected with the enforcement of the law in any way as a member
of the association for leeuriiis; total [H'ohibition ? — At the prcsetit moment I hold the
,)tiice of President of the Prohibition Leaitiie of Manitoba.
326.")7. In discharj^ing the duties of the position you hold as such, have you made
efforts to pi'ocure the enforcement of the present law? — Yes, within the i>ast ten days.
32C")8. Has that action led to the appointment of other oHitcrs I- 1 think the vote
of the people caused that action to be taken, because it was done before we intervcnefl.
32G5i). To what extent have you intervijned — for what ha\e you iisked ? -'Air the
enforcem<Mit of the law or the cancellation of till! law. I personally asked that, at all
events.
32660. 1 niij^ht ask you at this point to exjilain the position ? - The (Joxernment
declines to accept the responsibility of enforcinjj; the license law. Up to the |)i'esent
moment it has never been enforced, and now the position is a little strained as bct\\een
the <!(Aernment and the city in veijard to this matter ; and coi respondence is .uoiiii; on,
some of which J' have in my othce on tile.
32661. Do the city police do anything towards enforcing the law .' Xo : the Chief
of Police has told mo tliat such is the case.
326()2. You say you are President of a prohibitory li'ague : so of course, you faxour
jirohibitioii ' -F am a })i'oliibitionist.
32(U)3. Have you studied the (|uestion of granting compensation to brewers and
distillei's in the event of the enactment of a gt ral piohibitory law f I would gi\('
comjiensation under certain conditions. One condition is, that they give a bond to pay
for all the damages a.ssessed against them for the people and homes they ha\<' d(>st loyed,
becausi' I know the majority will be against then;. < )n those c(/nditions I iti;ree, other-
wise ~ will not agree, to jiay for a licensed sin.
■326()k Have you mapped out any plan of ascertaining the tigincs in connection
with the damages to which you have i-efei'rcd '. I think the statements of the witnesses
liefore the l{oyal f/ommission woidd satisfy even the brewers themselves on this jioint,
so that their claim would In; withdrawn \ 'ry (|uii'kly. I could produce witnesses from
W'iiitiiiieg whose families I have lieen called upon to support by reason of drink.
32665. E.vcept on those terms you have mentioned, you would not ])ay remuneration
to brewers and distillers? Certainly not.
32666. Do you consider that there would
lion I — 1 can only say, as the Attorney (Jeneral
|ilace such a law on the statute-book, theic will
anv more than any otliei' law.
Yes. It is the
be any dillicidty in enforcing |irohibi
of this Province has said, if our people
be ni. dillicultv in enforciuu- that law
view expressed by the Attorney
32667. That is your view ?
(icneral in the late compaign.
% Jiei\ Dr. MrLpud:
3266f<. Do you think the feiding in fasoui- of prohibition is \ery stroiig thinughoiit
Manitoba? — It is vi>ry strong.
326()!). Was the feeling fairly e\]>rcssed by the recent plebisc'ite 'Yes. Prohibition
received a majority of thousands. How. then, can it be said that it is not the expression
of public opinion ?
32670.- Perha|)s it was a Joke ? The licjuor men tlid not think it wasa joki', because
I hey took energetic action and scattered circulars far and witle in connection with the
campaign.
32671. Then tlu^ liipior men went regularly into tiie campaign? —Tlu^y did. 1 have
three jMimphlets, one of which was distributed just before the ballot was tak.en.
32672. Was it a one-sided agitation?- Indeed it wiis not.
129
21- -9**
i, :.J
'M: I
V Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
3l!()7;J. VVliat was the cliaracter of the campaign in favour of pruiiiliition .' l)icl you
cover tlie Held with speakers and did you resort to tlie usual campaign methods ! -We
were too po(jr in means to go into the campaign in that way.
.■{2074. Is that the reason you did not ilo sol — We could not aflord to get any
speakers from outside, and we simply had to do without them, and to d(j the best we
could with local talent.
;$2()75. Could you give the Commission the figures of tlie vote? — I obtained the
figures from the Department of the Attorney General, and I had them inserted in the.
/'/•«(' J'lVKs, of wiiicli I liave the; slip hei'e. The total vote on the plebiscite was 2(),7o2.
The total vctte of the counties at the Provincial Legislature election for the same con-
stituency aggregated 2:5,104. The total vote for the prohibition of the liquor trade was
li),G.'}7 and the total vote against prohibition was 7,115, a majority e([ual practically to
three to one. There are several constituencies the votes of which are n(jt included.
There is a diMicultv in tiiat regai'd. It seems the l)alk>ts tor that election went into the
Ijallot box of the Provincial Legislature and the number will not be known until the
Legislature meets.
.'52670. They had no statement from those constituencies I suppose, and there is no
means of getting an official statement from tho.se constituencies? — That is what the
Attorney Oeneral told me, and also that the majority in favour of prohibition would be
very cunsidei-ably increased when tho.se figures are obtained. The majority in favour of
prohibition was I2,.")32 according to that return.
;$2()V7. Do you think that was a delibei'ate expression of the people in favour of
prohibition .'- Nci man can think otherwise.
■'{2078. l)oy(>u think there is any difficulty attending the enforcement of a pm-
hibitory law other than and greater than the difficulty of enforcing local option ! — I can
see no possible diil'erence.
."$2079. Ts there not some difficulty in enforcing local option ? — It would depend on
the area.
."52680. What would lie the chief difficulty in enforcing prohibition in jireference to
a license law in Wiiunpeg ? -The want of enforcement by officials is an element. I
tiiink it is against the disjiosition of Englishmen to turn informer against your neighlxiur,
and in fact no one will inform. I myself lia\e been in such a position, but T would not
loilge any information against a man in the business. Ft is against my feeling as an
Knglislmian to bean informc'-. We look to the (iovernment to carry out the laws, and
they should do their duty and punish offenders for breaches of the law.
."52081. There is a kind of c:onHict between the city and the Government .' — There
is at the present time.
."52682. On whom does the resptmsibility rest, the city or the Goveriunent? — Do
you mean under the iaw ?
."52()8;5. Yes. — I am not in a position to say ; I have never looked into the matter.
."52084. Does the Provincial Government issue the licenses? — Yes.
.'5208.0. Who receives the licence fees? — A part goes to each.
.'52680. I'o whom does the larger part go? — I think the fee is §2.")0 aiui .'^200 goes
to the Provincial (jro\ernment.
."52()87. Then they divide the fee? I think it is divided in that proportion.
32088. Does not the law provide for the enforcement oi.' the law and that ci'ilain
officers shall give theii- attention to it, oris this })rovision oidy in regard to the Inspector?
- -I think only the Inspector is appointed by the Government and sjiecified under tlie
provisions of the Act.
."52089. You spoke of what had been done during the last ten days. M'hat was done
during that period towards the enforcement (jf the law that was not done before, and by
whom was it done ? — The Mayor has informed me that, as Mayor of tliis city, he [>•
going to see that the law is enforced, whether the duty falls on the Province or on the
city, or he is going to know the reason why. I think tliat announcement, coupled with
the fact that the Commission was coming here, luul an eH'ect.
32090. Then you think the visit of the Commission has not been in vain? I hope
not. But when I heai-cJ you say that you had seen three drunken' men last Sunday, tiie
announcement was like a cttld wave, and I began to lose faith in the people.
Wm. U. Mulock.
180
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32091. Do you kiujw whether under tlie law a municipalitv can appoint Inspectors'!
—Yes.
.■V2692. Such an orticer would be a dojjutv of the Provincial Inspector, I suppose? —
Yes.
.■{2()9.H. Do you believe that your Pi-ovincial Lej^islatui-;', obeying the behest of the
peo[)le as expressed at the recent plebiscite, will at the coming session enact a prohibi-
tory law ? — The Ministers gave tlieir word, and I presume that they will keep their
word.
.■{2()94. Supjxise the Provincial Government enact a prohibitory law for Manitoba ;
do you see any ditiiculties in the way of cariying out that law .' On the contrary, J rlo
not think there is any area in the woi'ld that is so suitabh' in which tci have a ]>i'ohil)itory
law enacted as Manitoba, and for these reasons : To the tioith we have an unknown
region and HucJson's IJay, wiiich is frozen over for man\' months in the year and through
which trartic never could regularly come, so far as this province is concerned. On the
south we have, for the greater pai't of the distance, a ]ir<ihibitory state, Dakota, in which
proliil)itio!i will aftbrd the best test as regards prohibition enacted liere. 1 iielieve that
if we had prohibition in Manitoba thei'(! would be no doubt that the North-w(!st Tei-ri-
tories would fall into line most heartily, and would gladly do so. On the east one
constable on the Canadian Pacitic Railway track would ert'ectually [)revent any linuor
coming in from that direction. So one can hardly imagine any placi; better adapted for
the enforcement of jiroliibition than Manitoba.
;{2()9.'5. The fact of your favourable situation and the strong feeling in favour of
prohibition, then, in your opinion, should make a prohibitory nK'asure a success f — I think
so unquestionably.
•{2()!)(). Do you believe that jirohibition, enforced, as it would be in .Manitoba, woidd
he promotive of the material welfare of this province and of the social and moral
welfare of the people? Prohibition can be looked at from various standpoints from the
Christian standpoint, from the political standj)oint and fiom the economic standpoint. I
think God's law enforces pi'ohibition, because God himself gives the law in the words :
" No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of Heaven." Therefore, the traflic which makes
a drunkard nmstcome within that limitation, and no Christain comnmnity shi.uld permit
it to be carried on. From the political standjioint, no one will deny what you.
Judge McDonald, stated at the opening of the Connnission here, that it is undoubtedly
an untold evil. If so, then observation should encourage prohibition as the State
advances. From tlie economic standpoint, I think it would be well to take the money
spent on liquor and bury it in the middle of the oceati, and the counti-y would be an
enormous gainer.
•■?2G97. You think figures and statistics will ])rove that : what about the revenue
derived from the traffic? — I believe in what Mr. Gladstoiu' said, "(Jive ine England
sober, and I will never have to ask for revenue."
32698. The opinion was expressed by one t>f the lai'gest employers of laboui' in the
Maritime Provinces, if not in the Dominion, that he believed it would jiay the country
to expend every dollar of the revenue on the enfoivement of a prohibitory law. Will
you go so far as that ? — I have never given the matter considei'ation fi'om that stand-
point : but in my opinion it would, taking the figures submitted to the House by Mr.
I'oster in his last speech on the subject.
.'52099. I think you said that tj.ere is relation between the trade and the drunkard :
do you see a close relation between the two?— I see cause and effect.
32700. You think it is not well for the State to establish a trade which produces
that kind of effect ? — I do not. I agree with Archdeacon Farrar in that respect.
.32701. Have you knowledge of the Northwest Territories? I have been in tlu^
North-west Territories ; I was there for a visit, but I was sick most of the time.
32702. As a professional man, coming in close contact with business men and busi-
ness intei'ests in the province, have you noticed that the licjuoi- trade, in its wholesale
department, and its retail department, and liotel, bar, restaurants, and every wheic else,
has any effect whatever on othei- brandies of trade in the country ? -I am not, of course,
a business man ;but making use of my powers of observation, I have no hesitation at all
ill saving that the other trades are very seriouslv injureil by it. All who have given
131
21 9J**
f - i.
i I'
t: -(
V. 'I
'.' '■ [i
. ii.i;:
I'M'
!J
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
the subject considemtioii must necessarily admit that it is so. I will refer to a family
which 1 have in my mind in this very city. The children have needed actual bed-eloth-
ing, lx)Ots and shoes, bread and butter, and the necessaries of life, and the money that
would have bought them went into the :saloon.s. The innocent, theiefore, sufi'er to that
extent.
3270.'<. Have you observed whether such cases are rare, or whether there are
comparatively many of such cases 1 — 1 am sorry to say that there ai'e many of such
cases.
32704. Have j'ou observed whether others than those who drink to excess cause
their families to suffei-, and whether reguhi!' drinkers and esj)ecially those who di'ink in
moderation aic so atfected ? — l have observed such cases, and have even come across
them in my own business.
3270-"). I do not now refer simply to cases of exce.saive use ? — Not simply to exces-
sive use.
32706. Do you regard the growing feeling as expressed in your plebiscite and in
various ways throughout the country as one desirous of prohibition, aiul is the result du(^
to observation on the part of the people of the elf'ects of the trade? -I do, the result of
oijservation and education.
32707. Sjieaking about crnnpensation : you ha\(' expressed your opinion on that
point. A witness before the Commission has stated that that (|uestion should be left to
the ])eople. Do you believe the people would vote in favour of granting compensation
to brewers and distillers'? — No, I do not think they would. I am satisiied that they
would not api)rove of it, because in England two years ago, a IJill relating to the liquor
trade, in which compensation was proi)ose(l, had to l>e withch'awn by the Governnu'iit,
although it had been carried by a large majority on the second reading.
."52708. Hu[ jiosing, ace -ding to the recent vote, the majority in Winnipeg would
1)1 1,300 to 1,400 in favour of a general prohibitory measure, would that mean that if
{)! oliihitioii were enact<>d and a])plied to Winnipeg, with a population of .'iO.OOO, it
woidd be accepted and enforced ?- 1 tiiink so. 1 am ]ierfectly set in my own mind <tn
that point ; and it shows how deeply rooted the feelint; !■;, when on the opj)ortunity
being given to the people, they expressed theii' oj)inion in that way.
.■>270'.t. Are you a member of tlu> Chui'ch of England?- I am.
32710. Ai'e you a nicniber of the Synod?- I am a delegate to the Synod.
32711. Has your Synod exj)i'essed its views on the temperance (|uestion and on
prohibition ? — It has not ; but, perhaps, I may be wrong in my statement. 1 think the
Svnr>d <lid so .six or seven years ago. T think it passed a resolution conrlemning the
use of li([Uor, i)Ut I forget the terms of the resolution. Nothing has been doiu' of late
years.
Bi/ Jiuhji' MiDonnld :
32712. Kindly give the Commission a copy of that resolution? — I will, if I can. I
have a recollection of that resolutiim being passed, but I uuiy be wrong.
3271.'. In regard to the taking of wine : do you look upon the taking of wine, as
a beverage, as a sin .' Y(w, I think that is the only legitimate conclusion you can come
to.
32711
to it
327 1"). Ycai know that the Church of Ei -rland in the Pjcclesiastical Province of
{'aiiada has oHicially declared that it must be fei'menled wiiu' that is used in the Holy
Comnnmion. Has there been any declaration in the Ecclesiastical Province of llupert's
Land on the ijuestion ? -No, there was a ileclaraiion of the Pan-Anglican Conference
which does n<it go that far.
32716. Does the Church use anything but fermented wines? — No.
32717. Would you preter to see that pi'actice changed? — I think it is wrong.
327 I H. You would use- only unfennented wine? — That is the only right position to
take, in my opinion. I ha\e reail everything I could lay my hands on respecting tin;
matter, and I have formed that as my deliberate conclusion.
Wm. H. MuLorK.
What ab(»ut its use in the Holy Communion ? I am sti'ongly opposed
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
32719. Your idea of prohibition I suppose, is a law jji-ohihitiiiji tlio iiianufactiii't' or
importation and sale of liquoi- for hevoraj^c ])iii'j>osos? — Yes. I would jM'rsonally yo
further; but J cannot lielp feelin<^ with i-espeet to the Sacrament that if tht'r(> was a
conscientious feelinfjf by some of the people that fermi'iited wine sliould be used, we
should not interfere with that, although I think it is wrong.
By Judge McDonald :
,32720. Would you vote against fermented wine coming in for that purpose? — -Yes,
as a matter of principle.
32721, I .see that the pr(!sent law pi'ovides (Section Klfi); "Any police constable
shall for tlu; purpose of detecting violation of any of the ])rovisions of tills Act which it
is his duty to iMifoive, have tlu; right to entei' on .all or any property." Is the ditHculty
whether it is hi. y or not? -- I do not know that there has be(;n any cpiestion raised
undiM- the clause 'iiat has been read, I am sjxiaking of general enforcement.
32722, I notice that any j)ei-son may niak<» a com|)laint and that it shall be the duty
of the [lispector to institute ])rosecutions ; and in case. Section 173, " any person gives to
the Inspector information justifying the ])rosecutii)n of any person named, it shall be the
duty of the Inspectoi- to lay an infonnatiuu in his (»wn name ;ind ])rosecute " .' — Yes.
32723, You hav«.' expressed, as an Kngiishman, your detestation of the cliaractcM' of
an informer. You have also said that you could not bring youi"self to lay an information
in regard to this matter?— Tt is not part of my duty as a citizen to do so.
.'{2724. Have you ever furnished the I nspectoi' with information ? I have.
32725. Did lie act on it?— -Yes, so far as it was in his powei' to do so.
32720. Supposing you saw a person commit a felony, would you lay infoi'ination
against him? — Isuppo.se it would be part of my duty to do so, as a citizen. T have
ne\pr had occasion to flo .so.
32727. l^o you not think that in the minds of a great majority of the people tliert-
is a very ditl'erent view taken as to a f)erson being an informer in such a case and an
informer und(>r a license c)r prohiliitory law ? If 1 pay a salai'ied otKcer to cari-y out the
law, I e.xpect him to do it.
32728. You pay a })olice (jtKcer ; yet you would not hesitate if you saw a man pick-
ing anothei-'s pocket, to liaxe him arraigned and to lay information against him and
pi'os((cute him. You would not feel any stigma would attach to the informer in that
(•use? — There is undoubtedly a ditrerence between a crime and a mi.sdeameanoui'.
32729. Is there not a ditt'enuice in the public mind ?- I do not think stealing should
lie instituted as a comparison with an infringement of a law such as a license law.
'riinse ort'ences ha\'e always been dealt with in a diHerent manner.
.'')2730. If a nuisance were committed on your jireinises, would you hesitate Ui lay
information ? — Not as a matter of sentiment.
32731. You would have no sentiment on that matter? --No.
•32732. But those against whom you complained are, I understand, in youi' opinion
< ausing a worse nuisance than in the other case? -IJecause 1 absolutely have no faith
V hatever in license.
32733. You are speaking of t!ie ,'e,tsoii why you will not
t(i iieins; drajiued into outside matters.
.327.3b As regards its effect? -1 do not know anytl '
(■\il in the world to-day as drink.
.32735. Then why isthei'e adiU'erent sent iment, in regard to laying information in smli
cases the cases to which 1 have referi'cMl ? - if a man commits a nuisance, on my premises
it becomes a j)ersonal matter between him.self and me. In tlii^ other ca.se, it is a matti'i'
between the community and some other person. I do not think they are analogous cases.
3273(). You have a license law in force. A man who wishes to get licpior on Sun-
day breaks the law, and the salooii-k<'eper who sells to him helps to break tli(> law.
Neither will lay information against the other. An injury is done to the public, and
there is a public nuisance. You are one of the public, and yet you say you will not lay
infiirmation ?-— I have not dotu^ so.
32737. Have you stated the reason to the Commission? — I sui)po.se so.
lay information I
•g tiiJtt
1 object
tiiJtt is caur-ini' so much
!■ f
!■■?
w i mini i n t rt ai i- iii WiimiTtMirij I i^
Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba.
i'ii
EDWARD A. BURBANK, of Winnipeg, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows ;
By Judge McDonald :
■\'2TMi. What is your business or occupation?- -I am Manager of the Merchants'
Protective Law and Collection Association.
.{2739. How long have you resided in Winnipeg ?~Alx»ut one year.
Before that time where did you re.side ? — At Carman, in the Province of
32740.
Manitoba.
32741.
32742.
Manitoba.
How lung did you reside there? —Aiiout two years.
And bet'.'!-'' that, where did you reside? — At Deloraine, in tlie Province of
32743. IldW long were you
Bcfort' CO
I have been in the province altogether about
ming to this province, where did you reside? — I came here fi'om
there ?-
four year.s.
32744.
Australia.
3274.5. Have you ever lived in any country where a prohibitory law was in foi'ce ?
- No, I have never been a permanent resident of any country where such a law was in
force.
3274(). Ha\e you been a temporary resident of such a country ? — Yes.
32747. Where ? — In Kansas, Iowa and Maine.
3274S. Was your trip through these States simply one of business, or did you make
any stay '! — I did not make a permanent stay, but f was in each State for a period of
from si.x. weeks to three months.
32749. In Kansas, what was the state of things there? — I found a prohibitory law,
but I did not find prohibititu.
32750. Was it jHissible to obtain intoxicating licjuors for beverage purposes there?
—Yes.
32751. Were they obtained with dithculty or freely? — There was difficulty in
ol)taining it, unless you were acquainted a^ to where it could \>e got.
32752. What were the difficulties ? -There was a law which jirovided that you had
to obtain a certilicate from a physician before you coulfl obtain licpior fi'oiii a druggist.
32753. Did you file such a certificate with a druggist? — Yes.
32754. Did you have ditliculty in obtaining the certificate ? — Yes, unless you needed
it for medical purposes,
32755. Then the doctors lived uji to the law ? — Most of them seemed to try to do so.
32756. How did they succeed? — There were "blind pigs" ;ind dives carried on
there.
32757. What ai'e " blind pigs " ? — Places where liquor is sold without a license and
contrary to the law.
32758. In the drug shops? — No.
32759. Were there many of those ? — I will refer to some statistics I have here. I
will quote from the report of the Commission of Internal Revenue at Washington, for
1891. That report states as follows, respecting the prohibitory States: —
" Iowa — 1 I reutitier.s, (i,3~4 retailers, ,")4 wholesale dealers, "Jit brewers, .S(l.") retail dealers in mall
liquors, 2G7 wholesale dealers in malt li(|Uors, making a grand total of 7,(iH0 dealers in li(|Uors in the
.State of Iowa.
"Kansas — 2 rectifiers, '2,SI1 retail liiiuor dealers, IK wholesale li<|iior dealers, 1 brewer, .">2.")
retail dealers in malt li(|Uors, (il wholesale dealers in malt, making a total of 3,410 liciuor dealers in
the prohibition .State of Ivansas.
" >hiinu — 1,1!).') letail licjuor dealers, 8 wholesale li(|iior dealers, 12() retail dealers in malt li(|Uors,
11 wholesale dealers in malt Ii(|uors, making; a total of 1,.'WS li(|nor dealeis in the State of .Maine.
"Vermont — 48S retail licjnor dealers, "21 retail dealers in irialt li(]i;ors, 9 wlioleaale dealeis in
malt, making a total of ."il.S liciuor dealers in the .State of Vermcmt.
" North Dakota — (ilJt li(|Uor dealers.
" South Dakota — 1,431 liquor tlealers."
32700. Ai'e you in a positiou to say whether these United States licenses givH
tiiese persons authority to sell contrary to the Sta(,(^ laws ? — Yes, they do.
Edwaud a. Bukbank.
134
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
32761. Because we find, in rej^ard to Maine, that tliouj^li rertitieates were issued by
the United States (jovenunent, yet they did not justify seilinj:; in the State contrary to
tiie State enactment, and the only lienetit arisinj:^ from talvinu; out tiiese ceilificates was
tliat they protected persons sellinj^ from prosecutions heinj,' instituted hotli hy the State
and by the Federal (loverninents? — Yes, that is so.
32762. We were j^iven to understantl that the possession of one of these certitii'ates
in Alaine was considered to be prima ftidi: evidence of bi'each of the State law. Ts tiiat
the law in Kansas'/ -It niif^ht be the case, but I do not undertake to say that it is so.
."52763. Do you know whether men who have these certificates I'eally manufacture,'
-I would not undertake to say .so, but T do not iinaj^ine they take out these certificates
for amusement.
327<)4. What else do you know in respect to Kansas? — I do not know anytliin^;
beyond what I have stated. 1 am not a drinkinj^ man myself.
3276."). Do you take ale? -I would not say that I am a teetotaller.
3276(). Did you take any liquor thert'? No.
327<)7. Therefore, you are not able to speak from personal knowledge of the(jualiiv
of the liquor sold there I — Only from lieai'say, and froni the fact that I saw peo{>le drunk
in Kansas.
3276S. .Judging i)y tht^ efTects of the li(|uor, could you form an opinion as to whetlier
the liipioi' was pure or otherwise ] — No.
3276'J. Then it might ha\e been the best or the worst .' Yes.
32770. What year were you in Kansas? — In 1S87.
32771. When wei-e you in Towa?- The same year.
32772. What did you see there?- Pr(>tty much the same condition of things.
32773. Have you no statistics about Iowa? — Yes, 1 will rejieat them.
" lowii, 11 rectifiens, (i,.S74 retailers, .")4 wliole.siile (leiilers. 'JO liiewer.s, ;{!).") retail deak'rs in
malt li(|Uors, 2(17 wholesale dealei'.s in malt li(|Uors ; making a graiiil total of 7, (>.'»') denlers in tlie Stato
of Iowa."
■32774. What about the observation of the law in Iowa / - I jjresunie it was <jbservcd
there the same as in other places where they make attempts to carry out prohibition.
3277"). (Jf cour.se the Connnission want something more than presumption.— I saw
people drunk in Iowa.
.■i2776. Did you see any li<|Uor sold I— 'So, anil I never bought any.
.32777. Does the law recpiire a doctor's certificate in ordei' to obtain li(|Uoi' tlieic ? —
Yes, pretty nmch the same. I may say that in Kansas they had an extremely stringent
law in that lespect.
32778. What about Maine? — The figures are as I have stated them.
" 1 l!i;< retail li(|Uor dealers, S wholesale liquor dealiMs, I'iti retail dealers in malt li(iuiiis, II
wholesale dealers in malt lii|Uors, makin^^ a total of l,3.'!S liijuor dealers in the .State of Maint.
3277!*. Have you the figures foi' New Hampshire? — There are 684 retail li(|Uor
dealers, f) brewers, 20'J retail dealers in malt li([Uors and 60 wholesale dealers in malt
li(|Uors.
32780. Were you in N'ermont ? — I was in Vermont only a short tinn', and did not
notice things.
32781. What did you notice in Maine? I should judge fiom my observation^ that
« hen peoj)le wanted li(iuor they could get it.
32782. Were you in the North-west Territories when |
Yes, in Calgary, Banff' and Regina.
.32783. When were you there ? - About four years ;igo.
.32784. How did you find matters there ? 1 think more
tiian ever was seen in Winnipeg : i)ai-ticularly was that the case in Calgary.
32785. Was liquor freely sold in the Territories ?- It wjis freely drunk and freely
used, but I do not knijw where it was obtained.
3278(). Were you in Manitoba during last summer?- Y'es.
32787. Were you here at the time the plebiscite vote was taken ?- Yes.
32788. Did j'ou take any i>art in that contest?— No part, e.Kcept that three days
before the election, I was requested to write something for the newspaper giving ray \ iews
on prohibition.
185
fiom my (d)servation
)rohibition was in force / —
driiikinj; was done there
'
:5279.S,
;52794
supiiort it ?
3279.-),
ciiforcefl 1-
3279(),
;52797.
.•52798.
you would lint
)])ti(iii law was
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.32789. Wimt were tlio.se views? — They arc expressed in this ))anij)hlet, a copy of
which I (ile with the Commission,
.32790. Do you wisli to liav(^ this pamphlet taken as expressint; the i'(^sults of your
own experiences? There is nothing in that pamphlet that would violate the oath I have
taken here, for it contains nothing hut what I regard as facts.
32791. Was the opinif)n at which you ari-ived favourable or unfavourable to jndhi-
bition ? — T would vote for i)i'ohibition readily, and T wuuld believe in ab.solute prohibition
if my impressions, ol)servations, I'oading and .study had not led me to believe that
idisolule piuhibition was impracticable and impossible.
"<2792. Then personally you are in favour of it ? — Yes.
But you l)elieve it to be impracticable ? -Yes.
Therefore, though yuu may be jjersonally in favour of it,
That is my position.
Have you lived in any section of Manitoba w^ "re a local
1 lived at Carman during the local option jieriod ihere.
How long ;igo was that? - I believe that was about last January.
How long was local option in force there? — Thre(> years altogethei".
^\'as it a success? — -No, it was woi-se than a failure.
32799. Was li(juor .sold there? — Yes, and there were many round ai)out ways of
selling it. The Church of England and it.s congregation was forced to remove from its
regular j)lace of worship to a distance of a (piartor^of a mile on account of the drunken
satui'naiia and the ))ad conduct of drunken men.
32800. How large a place is Carman ? — It has about ."iOO or (iOO jieojjle.
32801. Did not the authorities [)ut a stop to those disturbances ?- -I called upon
them to do so.
32802. Could you not have cilled upon the Chief In.spector at Winnipeg to enforce
the law then*? — It was not safe for ladies to be on the street, owing to the l)ad conduct
that was carried on.
32803. Was no attention paid to those requests and reconnneifdations ? — If any
attention was i)aid to them, the eflbrts were purely spasmodic and inetl'ectual.
32804. I understand that this is the statement published by you :
'• We me rt'liiil)ly and cr(;(Ul)ly iiifornifd that four cases iiiid one keg of wlii.sky iuriveil in
('iirinan l)y last Tiie.siiay's express from Winnipeg. .Some of it was, no ilouht, Ko penson.s for tlieir
own and friends' use, while it is likely some of it wa.s for other i)ur|)oses. We wonder if the local
iiis|tiMtor has l)een looking after these little matters ? Really our local inspector does not even make
ii good .scare-crow for' the wliisky people. '
Was action taken on that remonstrance? — The local inspector was a timid man
and he was o\er-aw(>d ; he would have been willing to do his duty if he had l)een in
full charge. I submit some more newspaper extracts bearing on the mattei', as follows :
" Carman would seem to furnish a good field for the attention of Chief Inspector Clarke and the
local inspector, Mr. Honeywell. We dcm't know how niucli of tlie ardent i>< sold here, hut we do
know tliat oceans of it is l)eing drunk every da)'.'"
" Chui'cli of England .Services will lie lieM in (iordon Hall on next Sunday evening, at 7 o'clock,
instead of il\ the I're.sliytei'ian church as heretofore. We understand that heieafter (Jordon Hall will
he the |)ermanent |dace of worship for the Knglish chui'cli congregation."
" The local liijuor inspector says there is no whisky sold, oi' drunk to excess, in Carman. We
would like to know how many honest |)eople there are in (^arman who will say lie tells the truth."
"Tlie .scenes of lawless drunkenuess, lighting and rowdyism enacted on the streets of Carmiin
last Monday were alike shameful and disgraceful, and call loudlj' upon the li(juor licen.se ins|)eetors
to do their duty. The language used by some of tliem in and around the Starkey house, in hearing
of the lady guests of th.t hotel, was too foul and tiltliy to he heard in a Spanish hagnio. It is plainly
the ilutj' of the chief inspector to appoint a local inspector here, who has the ahility and jduek and
integrity to do his duty like a man, a man too who, at least, has the respect of the oomnninity."
32805. Local option \Yas carried there, we understand? — I was not there when the
\'(»te was taken.
32806. We understand that onlv twentv-five votes were registered against it when
it was adopted ?— It was repealed while I was there by 287 to 48.
32807. How long was it in force? — About three years.
3280s. Whei'e were you when the vote was taken on the i-ecent plebiscite? — In
Winnipeg.
EnWAKl) A, BUUBANK.
Ii;
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{2809. I think vou i.ssuetl tliis piiiuplilct tn wliicli you have lefcrrefl ? — Yes, 1 issued
it two (Ifiys before tiie oicclion.
■■{2810. Did you speak at puhiic ineeliiiij;s on the (|uestic)n f — Xo. Thei-e wore meet-
injis iiold, at wiiicli proiiibition was advocated by tiiose wlio were friendly to it, but I
took ii(» part in them.
.'52811. Wiiat was the vote jjfiven by Carman ? -I cannot say. When I speak of
Carman, I speak of the municipality in which it is situated, Dull'erin.
•12812. J)i<l there seem to be mucli interest taken in the ijeneral election.'--! do
not think so.
.■$281.">. Was thei'e a lai'j^e vote polled ( Yes.
.'$281 4. Was it a much larger \(ite than is f^eiierally broujfht out on (juestions (»f
this kind ? — I taki; it that even the vote fell two or three thousand short of the vote
<;enerally polled in the province. It w(juld have lieen nine or ten thousand short if that
(piestion had come up separately. But the people weiv votini; for candi(hites f<ir the
Provincial [iefiislatui-e and they were asked to \ote and take in tiiis measure, and that is
the reason why so many voted as did \ote.
3281."). Do you know whethei- any complications ai-ose in connection with the elec-
tion as rejjards that issue of prohibition? Tiiat would b(^ a matter of opinion.
;i281(). Why was the pamphlet issued in opjtosition? My opinion is that .Mr.
( ireen way was i^uilty of an attempt to e\ade the issue, and his opponents took ail van-
taire of that, position in which the (Jreenway (JoM'rnnient jilaced tliemsehcs, so as to put
tlieni into a hole on that issue.
.'{2817. Was there no orj^anized opposition to xotinif in fa\our of the .Vet ( - None
whatever. I never heard of speeches being made or articles written, e.xcept tins little
])amphlet of mine, wliich came out two days befoi'c the election. in my opinion, it was
too late to do any good.
32818. AVhat do you think is the character of Winnipeg as regards sobriety?- I do
not know that 1 ever saw a bettei' beluned city than is Winnipeg.
32819. Did you know Cai'man under license? — T was t!iei-e once under license.
.32820. How did you find it compare with its coiidition under the Scott Act/ .lust
about the same as before.
32821. Just as disordei'ly >. Ye.s.
32822. So the introduction of the Scott Act did not help to make Carman moi'e
orderly ?---T do not think so.
.32823. In case of the enactment of a general ])r(jhibitory law, a law prohibiting tin-
manufacture, importation and sale of alcohcjlic liquors for beveragi; purjioses, would you
recompense brewers and distillers for loss of plant and material ? As regards an indus-
try that has been fostered by the (Government and which has been in existence .so long
as the bi'ewing and distilling business, in which people have invested capital, I do not '
see that an honest man can escape the conviction that compensation should be paid for
thiMr plant I think they are entitled to the same compensation as would be the pio-
piietoi' of a newspaper or printing establishment if the paper was closed u]) by the iUiv-
ernment, or a miller if his mill was closed up. There is a matter to which I desire to
<iill the attention of the Commission. The Commissioner's lieport of I8!)l, shows that
there are 1,198 retail liquoi' dealers in ]\[aine, or one retail dealer for every .").")4 of popu-
lation, or two retail tiealers in Elaine to every one in Maidtoba, according to
population.
32824. Have you any suggestions to make to the Commission with .-i view to
improving the present condition of affairs ?-- Yes. I believe that an absolutely sti'ict and
well enforced license law would be the best thing we could have in this country.
3282.^. Is that not now the case in Winnipeg? 1 do not think .so.
3282(1. Tn what way is that not the case (There is only one license Inspector for
the province, and it is ab.solutely impo sible for him to be in so many places at al)out the
.same time and enforce the law. In my o}>iiuon he should have as.sistants. I think the
people who call themselves prohibitionists and tempei'ance people should have gi\-en
su]>port to the enforcement of the license law. If a license law cannot be enforced, I do
not see how a prohibitory law could be enforced.
m
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
WliJit wniild l)c tilt' (lilliciiltics in ciiturcinj,' a |)i(iliil)itoi'y Ifiw ? Tt sncms to
(' would 1)1' till' siiiiic (lltlii'iiltics tliiit at present attciid the eiit'ni'fi'iiicnt (if
:V2H-J7
iiie that til
till' lieeiisf law
.'J282f<. Till' (litlirulties that srein ti> attend the eiit'oiroment of a license law at
jiresent ai'i^ to iireveut lieeiisees tVoin sellinj; at'tei' hours on wc^'k days, on Sundays and
to minors. Mow coulil any one ot' those dittieulties arise in ease liijuor was not allowed
to he sold at all / -If the law could he violate I in oiu' res|)ect in re^jard to many of its
jirovisions, 1 do not see why it could not he violated in other respects.
;{2iSi'll. You think the same diHicidties would exist as under the license law. Would
any of the ditlieulties to which [ have referred exist in a ;,'reaterdi';,'ree under prohibit ion
than now ( < )ne of the iirineipal trouhles in enforcing,' a proliihitory law would he the
ditliculty attending; the capture of smui,'glers, tin; ditliculty of liiidin^' out where liipior
was liein{:f sold.
.Sl'H.'U). You think, then, that one of the chief ditlieulties would he that licpior
would he hiduu'ht into the country illegally ! Precisely so.
.'i2fS;{l. You think that it would he sold illicitly and that otiiei' evils woulil creep
in .' —There would he sinu;fj,'liiij{ and violation of the law and infractions of the law far
in excess of those prevailinji under license.
.■5l'832. You say that you think a license law, jiropi'ily enforced, would he tlie hest
measure, and in your o|)inioii the law is not enforced now for lack of sutlicient otlicersto
do it. If a sutlicient iiumher of ollicials were appointed to enforce the license law, would
you in that vs'ay he ap]iointiiii,' a stall' almost sutlicient to enforce prohibition f -A great
many more men would he reipiired to enforce i)r-oliihition than to enforce a license law
-it would b(! more ditlicult to tuiforce prohibition.
;J:2f<.'l.'l. Have you been in anv section where there have been illicit stills in op 'ra-
tion ?— Yes.
;5-J8;U. In what part of Canada/ Not here.
328.'ir). Where? In Tennessee, (!eoi'f;ia and Alabama.
328."U). Has not the United States (io\ernmeiit taken very stern measure to put
down those stills I — Yes. The report for last year to which I have referred, states that
717 illicit distilleries were ])rosecuted in the United States.
.■iL'S,'$7. Were they attached by the United States (Joverninent for breaking the
re\ enue laws .' - Yes.
3:i8.'}8. Are there any other suggestions you de.sire to make that would be of advant-
age to the Commis.sion in regard to the matters referi-ed to them for inipiiiy '/ — If every
hot(!l or restaurant were pi'ohibited from having billiard or pool rooms wliei'e liipior
was .sold, and where the public cannot see what is going on, it would be an improve-
ment.
3283!). So you think that to secure a thorough enforcement of the license law, and
to amend that law .so as to contain such provisions as you have suggested, so as to have
those places oj)en to the public gaze, would meet the case better than legal enactments?
I do.
,'52840. Would you in that connection favour a rigid and frequent in.spection of the
li(|U(>r .sold I Yes, by all means.
32841. Have you any reason to suppose that li(juors an' adulterated at the present
time I — I liav(? had no e.xperience of that kind. F have here some uuire statistics. It is
claimed by the apostles of prohibition that the various systems of prohibition, local
option and high license and other forceful methods resorted to in the United States and
in Canada, have reduced the extent of the liijuor traffic on the continent. The same
report from which I have already (juoted, however, shows an increase of bushels of grain
consumed in the manufacture of liquor in 1891, over last year of 1,144,740. Increase of
gallons produced in 18!(|, over last year G,")59,9-"37, an increa.se over the average produc-
tion in the last ten years of 28,024,71'') gallons. This increase must have been for home
consumption as exports for those years decreased. This report also shows a steady
increase in fermented liquors. For example, in 1862, only 2,000, 62") barrels were manu-
factured in the United States, in 1891, it was increased to 30,478,192. Of course, that
report is for the whole country.
EdW.VRI) A. BUKB.WK.
138
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1834
hy Jiev. Dr. McLeod :
32842. The K^iircs (|ii()te(l liy you Wduld seem to sliow tliiit there hiis liccn m lar^'t-
iiicrcaso in tlin coiistiinpti'ni of Ii<|Uors iti tlio I'nitt'il States '( — -Yes.
.'{liHi;}, Would lliut ilcuioiistriite ti> you tin' t'liiluro ot' proliiliition of tlio t'aihiic of
licen.se ? -It would demoiiatrate to my mind tliat all the ayitatoiH and tempeiaiiec mm
wlio have attfinptcd to Lrrappk; witli llie existenvr of the liipioi' tratlic have heen failui'cs.
.'{•JSl.". . |)()(>s liciMisc pn-vail o\er a lai';(er area in the I'liiled Stales than does pio-
hihition .' I am iiuahle lo answei' that ipiestion.
■VJH H. I )o you know whether prohihition has heen attempted in more .States than
license? — 1 know that of thirteen .States in the United States that have enaeted pro
hihition laws, eij^jht of them have i-epealed the laws.
.■{-Ml"). J )oes lieenses |)revail in more States than does prohihition? 1 cannot say.
3284(). I'loliiiiition is a niodei'n measure. ' helieve ? \ helieve, aceordinu to the
))est of n,\ ju(l;;nient, that a l.irne proportion (Ji ihe territoi'y is under license.
•■{2N47. Would that increased consumption of li<|Uor b(! attriJjutahlo to license or to
jirohihition ? That is a ditlicult (piestion to answer satisfactorily.
.'{lis JS, JIas the inci'(>a.se heen larger in th(> licensed territory or in tiie jirohiliition
territory.' I cannot answer that (piest ion.
.'{I'Sli). Perhaps you can turn ti. the ]>ages of the hook to which ynu lia\i' Keen
referritifi and re;ul the ninnber of States other tlian those States you ha\e ipioted, other
than Kansas? What States do you mean?
.'528.")0. (Jf comse 1 have not studied the book.- -I picked out all the iirohibitiini
States.
32iSr)l. You si)okeabout States. You saifl there were a ijreat many lii|Uor dealers in
.Maine. i>ip you believe that there is more licpior used in that State than tiiere was for-
nu'i'ly, wluMi licenses were issued 1-1 uncJerstand that there are a ninnl)er <>f Kederal
licenses issued for the .sale of li(pior by hotels, which I have (pioted.
.■?2.*<r)2. Are there so many estal)lished liciuoi' ile.alers in ^^aine?--l couM not
state that positively.
.'52iS.").'{. Do you know that in Maine those certificates arc issued by the Tnited
States authorities, irrespective of the State law ? Yes.
;52Hi)4. Hut it does not follow tiiat because a man has a licei ■ to ri-taii. he tlicrc-
thei'eftti'c has a I'etail establishment? — I suppose it Would not folh '. as a legitimate con-
seijuence, l)ut I suppose they do not take out licenses and pay then money foi' fun.
328.")."). Are many of these licenses foi' drutigists or licensed \endors, men who sell
in the difVerent townships for medicinal and art ]iur|)oses?- f presunu' some of then)
are.
.■528.")r). Ale there many of such deaiei's in Maine ' Y'^es.
.M28.'57. Have you learned from that book what anunint of money is jiaid tor
li(luoi' in .Maine, so far as it is possible to ascertain it, per year? — No.
.■{28.")8. So you ai'e not able to make a comparison Ijctween the amount expended on
liquor in Maine and the amount expended in other States, beai-infj in mind the relatixc
populations? - No.
.'52851). So far as the facts are ascertainable, 1 believe Maine expends about one mil-
lion per year as compared with twelve millions in other States of similar population, aiid
some people attribute this savinjj; of eleven millions annually to a prohibition law, whe-
ther correct or incorrect I cannot .say? — I think the dealers there are .sellinj; the same as
utlmr dealers in other parts of the world.
.'528GO. Have you reason to know that of your own krowledjje? — If you mean i)y
my own knowledge, from what I have seen in Maine, I should answer in the negative :
but if you mean Ijy my knowledge generally, I would answer in the atHrmative.
liy Judgo. McDonald :
.32861. Do you know that there is any licjuor b''ought in fi'om JJoston and other
places for private use in Maine ? — I do not. I am sjjcaking in regard to pi'ohibition
and in favour of temperance, but T have my own theories as to how it shouM be brouglit
abi)ut. Those opposed to me hold different theories and I ditler from them.
189
; i
! '
I'
r-fn
X Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
//,// li>>\ Dr. }f,-l.,'„d :
.'i-JMCi'J. ||;i\c yoii scfii the license ('('rtitlcdtoH iHSUPd to MniiiiMiiul Khiimhs jicopic liv
tile I 'iiili'd States (JovormiKMit '.' -Yes.
;<-'H().'{. Are tliev culled lieeiises on tlie hiick? — T think so.
;{l.'S<')4. fs it not tile l'ecel|i( .' F tliink (lley iil'e eiiiied licenses.
.'5L'S(i"). Do yon know wlieijier the receipt stiites that the liold(M' is aiithofi/od to
s\;ll I'epirdiess of' State licenses, or whethei' he can sell without a State license / — I can-
not say, hut in_v impression is that it does not refer to the State at all.
.'J28()6. Do you know whether in Maine, in s|)ite oi tlie tax receipt of tho Fedoral
(iovernnient, men endeavunrinLt to carry on a wholesale and I'ctail business have heen
.sent to jail and diiven out of .Maine? I do not douht it.
.'{■_'S(i7. ^'ou lia\e s|ioken ahont Carman I Yes.
.'VJM08. How lai'^^e a place is it,' It has between "lOU and tiOO inhabitants.
3:]8(>!). Is there any police otKcor there? -They have one now.
.'{l'S7U. Did they not have a ]>(»li<'e officer formerly? -They had a constable.
."tliSTI. The people repcaleii tlie local option law, we believe? Yes.
;Il'S7"_'. .And llicy base appointed a ])olic(^ constal)le since f 'S'es. That was the
measure I ad\i>cateil before I closed my paper; f wanted them to a|ipoint a policeman
to enforce the law, as violations were tnkin;^ place 6very day.
'.Vli^lW. I)o you think there has (U^en any eliani;e in the condition of all'airs under
license as compared with local ojition ? — f do, for the conilition has improved.
;{l.'M74. ^^lU do not attribute that riotous state of affairs there to prohibition, I
believe?— Not, at all.
;{'JiS7r). Prohibition did not cau.se those distui'bances ? Prohibii ion did not prohibit.
.'<287ti. VVere those disturbances (hie to tht^ failure of prohibition, or of the |)arties it
charfied with the enforcement of the law ? The oUicer had not a chance to do his duty.
.'{:iH77. If there had been an oHicer tliere to lay chai'j^es, would there not have been
a better enforcement of the law ? — Perhaps so.
.'5^878. |)o you think it fair to char<;o a law, which involves a certain principle,
with any infractions of tln^ |ieace which occur owinj,' to a timid otUcer ? — I rlo.
.■!l'87'.'. You think it fail- to charjfc it a<;ainst the law ? - Yes.
;5l'8MO, Why ? \''ou covild not find a Na])oleoii or a Ciesar in excry locality to
enforce the law.
.■?2881. If you enact a law that requires tho best coura<(e of a man to carry out and
enforce, you will enact a law that it will be impossible to carry out ? — If tiie man had
seen the law better enfoi'ced he woidd have subjected himself to jiersonal (hini;er.
;52S82. T think you said that you did not tliink the law enacted that (Condition of
thin<fs, but that condition of things existed ? - I may lia\e inisajijireliended the idea
you attomi)t(Ml to convey.
.■$288.'{. Since the place has returned to license, \\wro has been a ])oliceman appointed .'
— Y'es, one.
.'?L'884. But the appointment w;is advocated by you e\en before the local option
law was voted out I — Y'es, to the b(!st of my knowledi,'e and belief.
■■5i'88i3. You have spoken about a well observed licensed law : do you know where
there is such a law ] — T do.
•^■>f<m. Where ?— Tn Deloraino.
.'52887. You think the license law is well observed th(U'e ? — Yes.
32888. How large a place is it ? — It is a.bput the size of Carman.
.32889. How many licensed place.s are there? — I think tw(».
32890. Do you think the licensees observe all the provisions of the license law ? -
At 11 o'clock the lijuhts are put out, the doors are closed, and tlie houses do not open
on Sunday.
32891. Have you seen any drunkenne.ss there ? — Not during prohibited hours. I
never saw a bettei- and more orderly^ town in my life. It has a good reputation, and
the peoph^ are intelligent and well-behaved.
32892. Do you think the people would be in favour of prohibition ? — I do not
knoMr; they had an election on local option, and it was defeated. The polling places of
Edward A. Uurbaxk.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(^'iiriniui iirr I'oprcscntcd iis I^orrif and .Mnrris. |)ull'i'riii is |iiiil <it' nu'li nf llicsc iniin
('i|)iililit'H now,
.'I'JH'J.'J. Ill tliiiMf pliu'cs. till' Miti' ill t'liNuur of |iri>liiliitiiiM at llir jili'liisfiti^ wuiild I
'<■.
I bclifvc, two to Dill', lln'i'i' lifin;,' a iiiajoi-ity of 110 for jiroliiliit ioi>, 1 low do you
iifoouiit tor tliiit vote in view of the pcojilc liaviiij; in dis;.'iiHt rcp«'alfd the lociil ojition
law and rclurncd to lict'iiHc 'f I account for it in two or tlirrf ways,
tilt' ]iolitical idi'ii ; and next, it was a |iro\inrial <|Ucslion, iind llir vole
f" ii'M*, tlirrt' was
N taken all
tilt! province ; and in tliis way I think the vote was generally a protest a;.'ri.isl the
lack of enforceiiiciit of the license law.
.■i289l. Then you think the license liiw has not lieen enforced at all .' No.
.'{■JM!);'). Do you think the sentiment of the people wjis, that the lici'iix; law slioidd
he hci^er enforced ! I cannot sav I hat.
.■{'_'H<)(;. Do vou think it makes anv ilifl'eience svhether t
le llcelisi'
aw
■11
enforced or not as re;,'ards the amount of drinking '. I think it dues with rejjard t(
drinkin;; and drunkenness.
.'J'iiSyT. J)() you think it is worse for the people iopro\iiie the facilities for drinkinj.
That opt'iis a vast ipiestion tli
tl
e (inestlon ot person
ii;;ht and personal lilierty.
pens up the (piestlon as to whether it is jnoper to i
'ntor(
•e siiiii|>i iiary laws,
,-heil
It
ler it
is proper to |)ro\ ide what such a man shall, and what he shall not, drink.
.'{28i)8. Is a prohihitiiry law a sumptuary law I- Yes.
.'{281)1), In the pro|ier sense of the term? Any law presciihin;,' what a man shall
eat and what he shall drink and what he shall wear, is a sumptuary law in inv n|)iiijoii.
i')L"J()U. You ha\e expressed yourself in fa\<)ur of pnihihition, and it appears vou
are only opj)os(!d to it because you think it is not practicable .' Yes.
JVJ'.tOl. You think it in not practicable because asa result there would be siMUi.',nlin;i
and illicit .stills and a ''rent nianv thiii'^s of that kind ? Yes.
'.\'2'M)'2. Do vou think all the sinu;,'j;lini,' and illicit stills \\i
I'tl'ects of the di'ink habit and drink trat
the C(inse(|uences would be wfiise.
:421)();i. What do you tliink are the
bad '. I rejr.ii-d them as bad.
as it is establish
to-dav
worse llian the
I do : I think
■H'ects of the drink iialli
are tnev irnod or
.■{'Ji)()4. And you think tlu^ other etl'ects would be worse ,' Yes.
.■{•_'!H)."). ><nuij,'t(lini;, for instance ? — Yes, it couhl not be worse than the state of
dlfi
to-di
IV.
In
mv opinion it would be a le;,'alized fraud. New York, .Marvlani
< )liio, Connecticut, ])elaw'a.re, Minnesota, .Missouri, Massachusetts, .Miclii^'an, Indiana,
Wisconsin and lihode Island, all had ])roliibitory laws, and repealed them. I s.av seine
time aji'o in a newspa[)er that was sent to me a rejvort made by the (Jood Templars, and
I belie\e i>v tlie Women's Christian Temjierance I'nion, on prohibition, in wliii'h ii was
mentioneil that the Sctttt Act had been ie|)ealed in nearly every county in (he Mast,
that tlie l^unkiii and the Crooks Acts and the North-west |)i'ohibitoiv law had all i,'one
the same way All tlie>e facts show ine conclusively that ab.solute prohibitiipii is imprac-
ticable, for it has failed wherever it has been tried.
.'JlMlOti. Which do vou think it would l)e easier to enforce, local or ''
eiieral ]>
>hib
tioii a ;;enei'al law j>roliibiting the manufacture, imjiortation and sale of alcoholic li(|uoi>
for 1
)e\ei'aj,'e purposes!
I think it would be a tine tliiii''.
Jii/ Judf/c MrDonold :
.■{l!!)07. r under.stand you wish it to be placed on record that you yourself are
favourable to i>rohil)ition on p -inciple ? — Y'^es.
.'521)08. But you look upon it as impraotical>le t(jcai'ry out'/ — That is it in a nut-shell_
141
i ir
:m
^ Liquor TraflSc — Manitoba.
MAIITIN FEKKE, of Winnipeg, (in being duly sworn, deposed as follows : -
(Tntiinilat'ion.)
.'52908«. I have resided in rtlanitoba since June. The firm I .uii coiniected with ure ini-
])ort('i's of I'reac'li wines and cumjjoundei's of spirits, I held a position in France as an
analyt'eal eheinist. We h(»ld thi'e(^ licenses a conii)oun<ler's license from the l>o|i;iiiion
(Jo\ernn(ent, a wholesale license from th(! Provincial (!o\-erninent, and a business license
from the city. The licpiors we compound are anisette, chartn.'use and cui'a(;ca : we do
not compound gin, l)ut we have compi unded light wines. These are manufactured from
extracts of plants, to give f'.vour to the liipiors, and alcoln)l and sugar. Light wines
are made by the mixing of \-ery cheap varieties of wine, such as cin'rant or goosebccr-y
wine, with a very rich h nie of greater body, ;md in this way we are enabled to produce
a claret or a light wini'. We do not use glycerine or anything of that kind, iiecause .vc
find that t'le natural wines ha\(' tne necessary ingredients to j'/foduce wine, has iiiv 17
per cent of alcohol, which is (|uite sutlicient for our ti'ade. Tn manufacturing wines, we
ilo not make use of any deleterious substances whatever, in fact they are more of a tonic
and are fa\ )urable to the healtii rather than harmful to it. If the Commission tliinU it
desirable, 1 can furnish .m <nialysisol)taineil from the Medical College here. Tliefnrnnda
used is th.' same that wi' are in th<' hab't of using ui France. When I have used any
of the nat,i\(' liipiors of Canaila 1 have always first analysed them, and if T find that
they contain any deleterious subst.iiices, anything liMrniful to health, l always reject
them as not being suitable for the manufacture of li(piors. If the Commission desire it.
1 shall be glad to make a report on the ileleterious substances found in ordinary whisky.
In order to obtaiii whisky of high class and other high class liijuors a great expense has
to bo iiicurre(i, and of course for the W; irking classes it is necessary to produce something
of a less costly character, and therefore instead of using natural wines we use glucose of
I otatoes anil other materials such as are often used in making whisky. This, of course,
niidves a sugar basis, on which an infe?'ior liiptor is compounded. Taken in small -pian-
tities. it would not be dangerous to health, but in large tpiantities it would be injurious.
The (juaiitity that would be harmful would depend very much u|ion the manner in which
the functions of the body wei'c being perfoiiued ; of course where these functions were
performed sluggishly, it woikl foi'in a deposit. This wouh' h.:t occin' with the wines
manufactured by oui' firm, beci„use we use nai.ural wines, ui.mixed with any deleterious
substances. Our comj)ounds would not be more harmful than natural wines, because
ve use ingredients whi( h are not harmful to healtii.
ol
W
C. H. CtHAIJUHNI'], Clerk of the l']xecuti\(' Council of the Province, on biing
duly sworn, deposed as follows :
lii) R<'i: Dr. McLro,! .
."t'JOOi). Hav(> you the returns of the rei'c.nt plebiscite f I havi' the returns, but they
are not coiiiplete. There are two or thiet; btillp*^ boxes that have not yet been opened.
The reason wh\ 'hose ballots can-ioi be counted is due to the fault of the returning oHieer
not fullv cari'yingout the iiiMi-uct ions sent at the time, vliicli were totheefl'ect that when
the Irl.oi boxes were sent, he was to furnish a com])leii -01(1 separate return of the
plebist^ite vote. Tn many instances this was not (lolu^ by the returning officer, and the
retufii was made for election of members of the Legislature.
.'12910 When your I'eturns are completed, will you fui'nisii the Commission wi;!) a
.special statement of the actual returns ? Yes. The I'eason why 1 cannot give the full
statement now is, because three or four constituencies iav yet under protest, and tiie
boxes containing the ballots canni be touciied except by an order from the Court of
Queeii',s Bench, and that cainiot be done until affjr the trial has taken place. 1 will
M.MtTiN Fkhhic.
142
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
at ,ii<> siiiue time t'uriiisli the Cnimiiissiou witli a cupy ot' tlic Art auiliori/iiiu tlic takiiii;-
of a ])lfl)isc'ite voU'.
ii'JUll. Do you l)flit>\t' tliatManilol)a, l)y tlic recent vote, e.\|ifcssc(l aical ilcsirc t'of
]>i! Iiibition ? — Most uiidouhtedly, because at the |ii'esent state ot' tlie sole it stainls iwn
to one in favour of pi<)liit)ition.
'11 you tiiink" the vote of tile |)eo|ile was i,'i\en seriously, and not in fun
JlMIl
Th
Yes. I have the record of two constituencies only, in which the \i)te was ad\fise to
piiiliibition. In one tlieie was a majority of six against, and in the other fifty aifainsi,
.■<2!)13. Do you believe tiiat the Province of Manitoba would be benetited by the
liidhibition of the lii|uof ti-atlic ? — If I maybe allowed to answei- that i|Uestiori as my
own feeliiiy would dit'tate, 1 would say yes, bi'inir wholly in faxoui' oi' prohibition myself.
I tiriiily believ c the country needs it, and that it is one of the steps towards the adv aiice-
inent of ci\ ili/aiioii which w" lia\e yet to take, and we have to take it ipiickly too.
.■5i!i)l 1. Do y"U believe that prohibit' :i\ in Maiii'uba would be practicable if the law
wertMMiacted and attempted to l)e cnfoii' •• . I think it would be. I kn iw of nothiiii;
to prevent it beint; l)iduj;lil into force here
Jiy Jiidiji' McDtiiiiihl :
15291"). !Ia\'e \()U had aiiv exneri
ence <:f a ]>rohiliit ion ciiiintr\'
No: I
aine trom
Enuliiiid heie.
.'^■.'i)l(). Have you studied the (|uestioii in regard to the operation of prohibition in
otli 'r pi; ces ? — No ; 1 ha\e only heard of it by hearsay.
oL'i)17. In case of the enactment of a jiii hibitory law, a law prohibit in^; the iii.iiiu
facture, importation and sale of alcoholic Inpiors for beveran'c purposes, do you consider
that the brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and material ' T
have not j^'one into those details or consi(l(>i'ed them, but I imaifine something; should be
tfi\en to them.
;32!lli<. [ suppose you are e(|ually aci|uaiiited with the workinn' of the license law .'
—Yes,
3291U. Is it found to work satisfactorily in .Manitoba .' Not at all.
3'2920. What are the diiiiculti,>s ? I hardly know exactly. The didieiiltio are
apparent, but T can hardly i-x|>lain the causes of them. Probably noii-enforceinent of
the .Vet would be one cause of it.
.''/2itlM. Is it lack of a sufficient number of oflicers to carr\ out th<' Act .' It is lack
of strin;ijent enforcement : I think tliei-e has been laxity in the enforcement of the law,
which has f^iveii license to parties to break the law. 1 iiaxt seen so much trouble in
connection with ilu sah- of lii|Uor after hours tliat T think the result has been found
e\cn worse than liie : Ue of li(|Uor duriiif,' the jiroper hours.
,32922. You a)<', of course, favourable to prohibition .' Ye>.
3292'' Would you prefer a license law or unlramnielled sale.' I would prefer to
ha\e the Hit use law done away altoj^'ether, and a prohibitory law passed.
32924. A\'ould you prefer untrammelled sale oi' a license law /-License.
3292"). Then you do not look on licensiny; as a sin /*''/■ .•." ? If it wa-- properly
obser\-e(l and ]iroperly carried out, ])robably there wciuld not be such ;i persistent cry
aLcaiiist the license law and as to the necessity of prohibition.
.">292(). Has the law not been amended from tiine to lime with a \ iew to inakiiii; it
mole perfect f Yes, but still it is defeit i\e.
t. ■■,
i!
IJ
148
1
if!
hif
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
EDWARD H. K K\ RK^'K, of Winnipeg, im licingduly .swoni, deposed a.s follows :—
By Jufi(je 31 ^Donald :
'.Vl^'ll. What i . yoiu' business or oceupjitioii ? — I am Public Annlyst of tlic inland
Revenue Dejjai'tnii nt for t\\v. District of Winnipeg, and uni Lecturer eu Cheniistiy in the
l'^iii\crsitv of iManiloba.
;i-2!)2H. You reside in tlii' eitv at tl
iresent time ? Yes.
.'5292!). J>id you eome liere from one of the otiicM- provinces or from England \--l
lixed eight years in Oiitai'io, but I came to this country from Pjiiglaiid.
;{2'.>.'5(). From whom do you receive tlu! samples you analyse r -From the Inland
Revenue l)e])aitment, through Mr. Costigan.
ly^
whisUies, brandies, ales and porters
.■i2!Kn. Ila\e vou made analvses of intoxicating li(|Uor
]
1 1
lave analvsei
;?2!).S2. Hav
e VOU m.'M
le such aiuUyses frecjiiently i Not until within the last year
:v>\r.v.\. Have
tNvelve of beer.
\'oil r('cel\t'(
1 many /iunples \- A ha\(' twelve samples of whiskies ami
md
;{2i).'54. No sami)les of wine ( — No.
•■52i>.'{J3. No samples of brandy i- N(t.
.■V2!).'l6. Was the whisky you analysed all of one kind ? No, some was rve wliiskv,
some was white whiskv.
V2i);i7. How di
id vou lind those li(|Uors as regards purity
Tl
ier(! IS iKj leiiji
tioii of adulterated liipior, for tliere is no standard. The Adultt
to sul>stances injurious to health
l<lelil
■II Act merelv letV
.'i2!).'?8. Did vou find any such substances in those litiuors '?--No. not within the
.sclu'tlule.
.S21tM!). Hid yon lind any harmful ingredients? — No.
:{2'.I10. Nor in the ale.'— No.
Ii2941. Then all those whiskies you would pass '?- -Certainly. 1 may se.y that the
kies were all of high standard and high strength of alcohol and had e\ identlv not
whis
bt'cn ivatered
altl
lOU
;h, as I have staled, theic is !ir) legal standard.
.■521II2. l^o vou kii
tl
le samples I'eceived merely hy nuinoers;
.■$21M."). Do you send tlienito Ottawa or to theotliceroi the Department .' - 1 sini]
'IV
clnide the sail
iiples into three parts, one for the |{e\emie oIHcim'. one to be sent ro (Ot-
tawa and one for myself.
.■i2'.t-N. Juilging from the analyses yon have made, are there any suggestions
d olVer tc) the Com
imssion 111 resale
1 to the liipior (|uestioii and with respe;:! to tli^
lie of liiiuor, that vou lliiiik would be benelicial to the community
-No, except that a
standard of strength should lie established in order to pnivent watering alcoholic liipiors.
Ji
l{2i)l-"). l>o you think it would be better if tliere was
and analyses made f -Certainly.
s a more freipient iiispin'timi of
'>-_".M(i. "SVould it
improNcmenl if they were made to a large extent .'—Yes.
loll IS
hat most of the
th
Another point I may ment
original bottles and not as .sold in the country districts. It would lii^ well if samples
samples I lia\f recencd were ii
C()ll
Id be obtained of lii|uor as it is sold to the public, because it is stnted that watei'i
of liipior takes ])lace iti the country districts
:i-.".»(;
suggestion was made iiiMonlrcid that dejiavt mental oil
leers slion
Id g.
and take possession, for a time, of the licensee's premises and take samjiles of lii|Uoi'
being sold in bulk and in decanters. Would you favour some proposition of
llial are
that kiml
It Won
1.1 b
belter to lia\e samples taken in
that
way.
Edwahk W. Is ■ nkk K.
\u
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A- 1894
Hon. ALHEin' C. Klf.LAM, ni \Viiinip(% .Juilf,'e of tlie Court of Queen's liciuli
of tlie Provinc.'of Manitoha, on l)^'in^ <luly sworn, deposed as follows : —
/iy Judge McDonald :
:52()4S. How lotifi liavc you I'csided in ]\ranitol)a ? -Nearly It years.
."5:^91^9. Did you come here from one of the othei' |)i'o\ inees ? T was lioin and
brought up in Nova Seotia ; 1 studied law subsequently in Ontario and piMctised th(>re
some time befoic I came here.
.■V2'.'r)0. l)id you practise law liere Ijefore you were appointecl ttj the Henclif Yes.
.T29r)l. How lonj; hav<' you l)een :i .Juilye of the Court of (^)ueen's IJcnch .' Sincf
the beiiinnini; of ISS."), between seven and eight years.
• .'?29ol.'. Have you noticed duriny; your residence here whethtT there has been a
change in tlit; soci/d customs of the people in regard to the use of ii to.vicating bevera-
ges, and whether it has been in the direction of tempei-anc oi' not? [t is .-i little ditli-
cult to exj)ress an opinion. I should not (hink there has been any ;.'it';,t change, )irolia-
bly there has been a dci-rcase as (•om])ared with the increase in ]Mipuiatio.i.
.S2i)o."5. Do you tind the city of Winnijicg a well coiiductcd and sol ic,' city .' N'crv
nuich so. on the whole.
.'52954. Do your dut ics call you to tra\el throughout tlii' pid\ iiK'c !' .lust to Port-
age la Prairie and to Urandon.
.'i2il-")n. How far has youi' obsei'vation gone in that respect .' ((nr people area
very sobei' and intelligent peo])le on the whole, and there is Nciy little erinie.
.'V2'.).")(). Do you try both criminal and civil cas(>s J Yes.
•'i29-")7. .\re you able to state what proportion of the criminal cases that come
befcjre you may be at tributed directly or indirectly to intemperance f- 1 found not a
very large ])roportion. T ha\e taken the trouble, on account of the fact that sonu-
months ago ijuestions were sent to the .ludges, and which 1 <lid not answer at the time,
becau.se I ha<l no time to look o\'er my notes of the cases to look into this matter, and
speaking of the ca.ses coming before me, I will state the result of my iiiipiiiy. 'J'liere have
been 2S convict ions on criminal charges and 2-") acipiittals, or ■'").'5 cases on the whole.
Out of the con\ictions [ am s|)eaking oidy of the evidence before me as to cases that
involved pr.actically <'rimes without refeicnce to the habits of the parlies before, of
which T h.id no part icular knowled.';;- tour were (hie to drnidvCiniess. Nineteen were
not in any w,iv att i-il)Utable to drink. I''i\e were doulitfiil, for this reason : that >o fai' as
mv bein-' able to e.xiuess an oinnioii, 1 could not do so, liei'ausc tliree people pliaded
guilty, and I therefore had i;ocatao.i which to judge. One was a case of larceny of
lit]Uor, to which the oll'endei' pleaded guilty ; aiul it is doubtful ulietlier the drink ([ues-
tion entered into that or not. Oi
a case of indecent assault, in which the evi-
dence of till' ]ilMintitr made it impossible to say whether the act w.is att ributable to
drink o'' not. < )f t\ventv-fi\e ac(|uittals, so far as the e\ idence goes there were fotu'
wl
lo mi'.'ht and slicadd have been found gtiilly by the jiu
hutable to drink
drunken > ow where
Oi
both
d
lie man pleaded t;uilty, and his odeiici' was comini
d 1 1
(I'em
eir cases were not attri-
itted
in
larli
es were druii
There were eiitht cases in wliii'h there
was very strong cxidence against the parties, liiil they were n
It otli
ences due to intoxi
eating liipior. Two were cases in whii'li the persons ap]ieare(l to be guilty of fraud, liut
which did not ajipear to come exactls within the law, ami which were not t r:
• Irink ; <
me was a case ot assini
It
<taM
catiiii,' h<iuor u.set
hv tl
le ))arty.
.■i29o8. Takinu' your e.\|
)eriences
.•it the
e, wliere
<ar ami on t hi'
dile tl
III lieen no Use ot lllto.si-
lleiieii, have voii found a
tendency on the ]iart of criminals to put forw.ird the plea that they committed tl
iff
ortence w
hill
parties would plea
.S29r.9. In th.
I rue '! Ther
under the inllueiice ot lupior
I
ha\c found it in a few c
ises, wlierc
uill \ and woulil
1 n
at the same I ime
aim that thev
had I
th.
leen ilruiik.
)se cases \ou liail no op
to
)portunity of ascertaining how far that plea was
'c was no e\i(leiice to sliow win
;{29()(). Have vou
'ther it was Iru • oi' not.
aii\' coiiiieciion othciallv with i
irkinu ef the license
law? No.
.'i29(il. Neither at the liar noi on the l'>ench .' — Ni
145
21 10**
\ ! I
!( (; !
-"'^i^msmmmnammim
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'5'jy<):J. As a uitizen, luive you iiotiued whetlier tlie law appears to b« well observed
ill r-f^ard to sale on Sunday and after lioufs? — .Sj)ealvint,' of the lime I have been on the
Beneli, I haxc not had an opportunity of <jbsefvin;{. in some cases which came before
me there svei'e isolatetl instances of what was known as sale dui'in<,' pi'ohibited hours and
on Sundays. I never had sufficient knosvledije on which to judge whether that practice
was general oi' not.
.'5200;!. ]la\-e you considered tiie ([uestiuu of the persistent (h'unkard, the man wlio
is before the |iolice court and is sent to jail, and iu a few days is back again and keeps
up the I'otation. In your opinion, would it l)e better to continue that system, or to
place such a man under I'estraint for a eonsidi'rable time at a proper inst'tution? —
Persons of that kind had better be put under sunu; restraint. We had .sue h a law in
this j)rovince at one time ; it is still on the statute-book, liut it has been allowed to
l)ecoine a dead letter. *
.'}L".)(i4. Have you had any experience ()f a prohibitory law ? — No; I cannot say that
[ ha\e had any great expeiience. 1 have l)een occasionally in countries where they
ha\(' had ])roliibition but only temporarily.
."{li'JI)."). W'iiat countries ,' — [ have visited and resided at Yarmouth, Nova Scotia.
■"iLUXiti. What was the sentiment there / — Tlu; sentiment appeared to bi! very
St rongly against the sale of licpior. 1 never was aware that ii(juo:' wa.-. allowed to be
retailed tlu're by the glass.
.■i2!)07. It has been stated to tiie Counni.ssion that there has ])een no license granted
therefor 70 years? — Not within my recollection at all events, I have never known
jH'i'sunally, any violation of th(^ law, tiiat \ can (sver r<'membei'. and F only know that
when I was a school-boy there was talk that there were jilaees where li([Uor was sold
illicitly.
.■5296JS. What other places have you visited f f have made \isits to Maine, but
never staj-ed any time there. I jupt passed through, but I saw lii|uor sold ([uite openly.
329G9. Were you in the North-west Territories when prohil)itioa was in force '( —
Only occasionally.
.■?l'970. l)id you see tlie upei'ation of the law ! — Very little. I remembei' some time
ago I was at Fort Mach^od for a day or two and at Calgary for a time, but never saw
liquor sold. I have seen apparent evidence of parties having used it, and I have known
it to be freely used : it has been offered to me and to others. I have seen bars that
were pretty large and ex])ensive to be kept ujt by the sale of ordinary li(|Uor, and I have
been told tiiat they sold intoxicating litjuors at them. Hut 1 did not see evidence of
sale myself.
I5"_'971. I think in the Township of Colchester and in Es.sex they had the Dunkin
Act which they at temjited to enforce for a year or two? — I was occasionally iu that
township. 1 was then I'esiiling in Windsoi'. 1 have seen liquor sold at the hotf^ls there,
but how general the sale was, I could not say.
•V2^7-. Ha\(' you considei'ed the 'advisability of a prohibitory enactment for the
Dominion? — F cannct say that I have ever entered into the question very deeply. I
could reason it out theoretically. As to enforcing such law, it seems to uw it would be
.so exceedingly dilHcult as to be almost impossible. There are a large number of peoph;
who \K ish to use intoxicating li(|uors, and as there are always a large number wishing to
di'ink, who will strongly object to any legislative action being taken to jirexcnt the use
of licjuor, so with the existing conditions and wiih such feeling ])i'('vailing, aiuF the sense
of the (Minununity not being \eiy strongly in favour of the supjiression of the traffic, it
would be xcry difficult to enforces a prohibitory law.
;5l'97."). Speaking as a trained jurist, what in your opinion is the eli'ect on a
counnunity of having a law on the statute-book, such as a general ]>rohibitory law, that
is tiagi'antly and p(>rsistently violated ? — T think it would be demoralizing to a community
in the sense of hvssening their respect foi' law.
.'$'_'y7F. in case such a law were passed would you deem it riu'ht that compensation
should be made to brewers and distillers for loss of plant and ))ro))ei'ty .' 1 slioulil
think so. i desire to say on tlui (pu'stion of |)roliibition that a large number of [)ersons
desire t{t use intoxicating li([uors, and F think it wouhl l)e an undue act on I In pai't of
the majority to prohibit, their obtaining them.
Hon. Aluert C. Fvillam.
146
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■^207r). Tiikiiiy lilt' class of peojili' wlio cannot be ri'straiiicd from ^i-ttiiijL; tlrunk,
mill sonic of tliosi' incinlx'i'.s iij)[)('fir before the courts fepciiteiliy, and tlie cla-^s who use
li(|Unr in nioileration, do you think it would Ih^ fail' and pro'ijer lo keep undei' I'cstfaint
peo]>le who use liiiuor iniiiioderately ratiicr tiian shut it out eiitirciy from the people who
use it in modeiation I — it would be much l)etter to keep tliose who use it to excess ifom
using it at all.
Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeml :
32970. Do you consider that tli(! ptMipU; of Manitoba '.vould be sti'origly in favour
of enfoi'cinj;' a proiiiliitory law '. T hardly know what to say. The result of the r(;cent
vote was a sui-prise to me. In my opinion it may lujt have e.xpressed the views of the
jieople, for tiie reason that there was no jiractical outcome of it, it was not put into
practical o])ei'atioii. Still I may be mistaken in that regard. I was surprised at such
a large vote being given in its favour.
.S2!)77. Then it expresses the desire of the j)eopie for prohibition? I suppose so.
I}2!l77". Su])pose that the plebiscite indicates the will of tliep('o|)le as strongly as tiie
\()te indicated, do you think that in that cast; it would bo jiracticable in .MMiiit'pi)a ,'• -I
sU])])ose it should be tested ; we can only reason as to that at present.
3297''^. I •<> you think it would be unjusi if the majority enacted such a h<\v, even
if sucii a majority desired to remove the trade and the temptations that the\- claim are
connected with it?— 1 think so. \o doubt the majority would be seeking toin\ade
natiiial rights for what they believecJ to be the best for the community.
•')2'.)7il. .Su|i]iose tlu! majority take this view, that the prohil)ition of the trade is for
the welfare of the whole community, and T supjiose they claim that tlu'lrnde is a
constant menace to their families. Would it be right in the interests of the majority to
impose their opinion on the minority ? -That is a very ditliculi (piestion to answer'. T still
hold my ])i'evious ojiinion, that the majority should not infringe on the natural rights of
man.
329S0. And 1 ,suj)pose the minority should not impose on the natural lights of the
majority to protect themselves? ]t. might be so.
:1 li
the
T
[1 be
tuple
a to
use
lense
10, it
■n a
It hat
Inity
J. K. McLENN.AN of Winnipeg, drain .Mer'chaiit, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
Bi/ Judge JJcBonald :
32981. Hovr long have you resided in Winnipeg? — Nearly two month.s ; I recently
cane from Treheriu!.
329S2. Mow long were you there? — About two yc'ais.
329S,3. How long have j'ou lived in Manitoba ? — Four years altogether.
.■{2!IS4. Di<l you come here fi'om one of the other yiroviiices ? -I came fi-om (^)ntario.
329Sr). li'i'oni what part ?— I''rom Essex (Jentri'.
.■i2'.tS(). lliid ]"'.ssex County adopted a prohibitory law .' At the lime I was iher'c I
think the huiikin Act was in force.
3L'9f<7. Is ther-e not a large French population there ? - Yes.
329SS. Are you actpiainted with the working of the Manitoba License Act? — Yes.
3298i). Mow does it work, in your' opinion? -[ do not consider tlie law is very
well enforced.
.■i21)9U. Ai'e you in favour' of a lii'ense law ! I am not.
•32991. Would you prefer a licens(^ law or prohibition .' Prohibition most decidedly.
321(112. ff you could not obtain pi'ohibition, would you rathei' lrav(^ a license law oi'
iiiiiiiiirimelled sale i)f liipior'? F should like lo liav(> ;he business reslr'icled.
.3299.3. If yon could not gel pi'ohibilion and wei'i' called upon to Note, would you
^ote for' uiilramirrelleil sale or a license law? — 1 would vote for the most striiij^ent
license law I could get.
21 10.',='=*
lij
) !
147
"l«iJU«dUa|iLUIl JLJ„Ui*Sl
i
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
Mu'DlJl. I)i) yiiu tliiiik till' lii'i'Msc law of Maniti)lia is a licciisc law ihat is well
t'laiiii'd for tlic inirjioses ot" cairyiiitf oul loslrictioii ?- It is faii'ly well fiaiiu'd, and it' one
or two iirovisioiis wci'c added, tiiey woidd sti'i'iii;th«n it iiiatcr'ially in that I'l-spcct.
.■i2i)!)5. Ill what respect? — In a vilUigc where no lieenses are f^ranted, tiie law
should |iro\ide that treatini,' and <listiil)iitinj,' li(|Uor should he [irohihitcd, and thepenaltv
should Ite made the same as that aj,'ainst sellin,ii.
.'Jl'!'!)*). You mean that it' a man yives another lii|Uor, the oH'ence should he the same
as it' he had sold li(|iior '. Yes, the same as it" he had sold. Wi- could enforce local
option thoroufihly if that provision was added to the jireseiit law.
."ili'J'JT. Is there any other amendment viiu ilesirt^ to su<ifie.st .' T do not see any
other weak point.
.■5L".t98. (iranted a license system, would you fa\our the limitation of the number of
places where iiiiuor is sold.' I would ha\e the nuniher reduced to the smallest number
possible.
.■5j!!iy!1. Ha\f you consiiiered the (jUestion of hii,di license.' If licenses are to be
^iianted at all. the hi;,dier the license the hettir.
."{.■'lOOO. Would you also ha\(' frei[uent inspection of the liiiuoi- si>ld' That would
be ad\antageous, peihaijs.
."{."iOOl. How long did you say you ha\(! lived in \\'iiiiii)ie;; ' .Vboiit two months ;
I lived in Winnipeg, however, some time ago.
.')."!(H)l'. |)o vim <'onsider I hat Winnipeg is a sobei and well I'onducted cilv.' \'es,
fairly so.
.'{."iOtl.'J. What kir.fl of prohibition do you fa\(iiir.' Tola! proiiibition.
.'5.S00-1-. Y(vu mean total prohibition of the iiuinufacture. importation and sale of
alcoholic liquors for beverage [lurjxises ! Yes.
.■J.'^tlO-"). In case of the enactment of such a law, would you faxKur the granting of
compensation to l)rewers and distillers for loss of plant and propiMty .' I would not. I
do not think the trade is in a position to claim compensation. I know that last year a
number of licenses were cancelled, and no claim was made for coinpensati<»n.
.'?.'i()0(). Then you would not grant compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of
plant .' f wiiuld not give any compensiition.
/>'// h''r. Dr. J/cLi'ofl :
.■).'i007. ifavc 'vou had any e,xperieiic(? of prohibition, either general or local ? — We
are working under a no lici'iise plan at Treherne. We had a license at lirst, but the jieople
tinallv protested it out of the town and no license has been granted since. The license
was protested about a year ago.
,'<:UJUS. C<imj)aring matters uiuli'r license and under no license, which do \du con
sider the more benelicial ? -A town near there, called Holland, was working under
license, whik' Treherne grants no license
li.'JOOi) Have you e\'er known on occasions when ciowds gatheri'd, as on L'llh Ma\
and 1st .lulv, that the j)t>ople were boisterous at Holland, while the people at Treherne
were ijilite peaceable ? Yes.
MMOIO. Have you noticed similar differences in Ontario .' I ha\i' been in Carman,
.Manitoba, which has been working under local option, and it was ipiite ditl'erent there.
That law nas, however, been repealed reee'iitly. It was repealed owing to the temjier-
Miice peo]>le takinij no interest ifi the contest, thinking that the regular bydaw had been
illegallv submit ted ; it was snl)mitt(ai in a dilVerent form altogether. It was thought
that there was no necessity to adopt a bylaw which was understood to be illegal, and
tliat was the reason why temperance peo[ile did not vote on the (|uestioii of repeal.
;i.")()l I. Then they took no interest in the vote, supposing it amounted to nothing?
— No; thev did not think the vote would aU'ect the law.
3:1012! And then the law was repealetl . Yes, that was the result.
.'i.'iOi;!. A\'hat was your ob.servation of the state of allairs in Carman under the
changed conditions' I had been a (oniniercial traveller for many year.s, and visited
Carnian escry three weeks, and my iin]>i'ession was that Carman was a very (piiet town
while local option was in force, and that 'here was very little 'ilriidiing there. Some
,). K. McLlANAN
14P
|.?ii
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
few |)('()j)lc (,!)tiiiiitMl li(Hiur t'ruiii Wimiipcj; (ux'iisioiially, Imt on the wliolc tlierc w.is \i'vy
little (li'itikiii<;. At the prcspiit time I ooiisidci' the state of the town to be quite tlie
ooiiti'iirv.
low? — Yes, iiml ii L,'reiit deal ot' li(|iior is beiii^r ^,t^,\(\ ji,
ii.'UJl I. Tlicrt! are licenses
very noisy jilaees
-■501
. ou do
husiiiess at 'J'relienie / Yes, in tiie stores tiiere.
3."{01(). I )o you know whether the <j;raiitiiig of Jie(Uises has any ell'ect on general
ti'ade ? I consider it safer to do husiiiess wliei'e no ]i(|uor is sold, ! think tlu^ people
nts lu'tter. it is necessary in the coniitiv to t;i\-e credit, and I think if
pay tlieir accou
much li(|iior is soi(
I it is dam,'
'erous to jfive much credit.
ou tcel more uu'hiUMl to
ai'coiiimo(lale t\w peo])le when you know they are not drinkiiii,'.
;i."{(Ji7. 'i'licy iia\(' more money because they are more thrifty, 1 suppose? ^'
•'i0i8. Have von ohscived whetiier the drink trade aiVect-
iiijuriously o
ther iiu.-.
esses j,'eiieia]ly .' I think so. A hiri,'e amount of money that would otiierwise pass inti
ropt'i' clianiiel> is diverted into a ciiannel from wliicli no \alue is recei\e(
.'}.'i019. I )o you tiiiiik prohiljitioii is a jaacticahli- measuri
I think
hibitorv law would be well enforced in Manitoba.
1'
Trel
lerne. ou
tside of a f
ew parties wlio woi
\](\ be determined t
judijin^' troiii my impi'essioiis at
o keep a little liipior on
hand. Outside of these i\-\v jieople, if the trade were ))roliibited, I belie\-e there would
no ditiiciiltv ill enforciiiy' the law.
;l:iUL'U. Y
ou iielieM!
that
even if there is that constant illicit sale, more or
it i<
not so injui'ious as established ta\eriis in the communii/y ? Certainly not.
•'i.'JO'il. Are you disposed to belie\e that if laohibition could be strictly obser\('<l
in some districts like 'J'relieriK', it minlit be as easil\- and as strictly enforced allo\(>r the
whole iiroN iiice
•elieriK
T
violated and persistentlv \ i
That is my opinion. In traxcllin;;' over J\ranitoba I have visited
frecpiently, and from my observations I liavc seen tli
oiated i)\- iio
tel-ke
"1"
A lit
aw
ense law is ii
there lla^fiantly
I force there. ( )f
course the houses are supjioseii to close not later than 1 I o'clock ; but when more or le;
liasseiiyers came in bv tram, tlii' liot(i-ki'e])ers open i
h '
lit ;iiid li(|Uoi- is sold \ erv freel\-. F
i\(' also seen liquor sold betore si.\ o clock in (lie moriiiiii;', in two cases,
.'i.'itjL'i'. So licensees are not particular to obser\e the pKihibit
license law ? -Tliev certainlv do not.
ory ]iro\isioiis i
.f Ih
>t)2.'i. And illicit sale ydcs on e\-eii when men are autliori/ed to st
Hi/ Jiid<ji' MrDotidlil :
'.VM'H. i)id you call the atlcnlion ot the Inspector to these matters.' 1 did ill one
ease, and he ))roiiiised to look iiit
O It.
I le is \erv busy as a rule
3."i02r). l)id you lay an information yourself.' I did not.
.■?302(). A y;entlemaii. favouralile to juoliibition, who publishes a newspaper in
Carinan has called attention to certain matters tlici-i lie Ims told the Commission that
tile Church of laigland services had to be chaniied on account of ilrunken disturbances
while that law was in force. i>o you know anytliini; of the matter' 1 never heard of
anything' of that kind before.
•">:'i()27. lie further stated that Lulies v\'erc exposed in hearing' laiii^'uanc which was
illitit to be heard, anil he iiicntioned Sunday, .\u;;ust "-'■^th. ISItJ, as one of tlii'(lati's. and
stilled that he had callitl ll[»>n the Inspector to come forward and do his duty like u
man. I)id you ever read sui:h re]ioitsin the ('armaii newspaper ot iliat time' I <lid
not, but I heard that the repoi'ts were overdrawn.
^.'iOL*;^, Was there any truth in iheiii .' -There miulii have been a little.
.■l.'iOL'l). I see the writer holds very stroiii> v iew> on the subject, and he says : •• The
time is not far distant when tiiose who are now dest i-oyinif theii fellow men with the
accursed stuff' will be iii;i(le to realize the enormit \ of their eiiiiie. (»f course that is
the impression of a man who is evidently stronyly ..pjMised to the tratlie. I*i<l you live
ill the place at the tiuK' .' I vvas there fn-ijiii-nt ly.
.i.'SO.'SO. That gentleman was living in the jilace and puiilished a neuspaper. and in
that journal he pretended to be dealing with f;.. is resjiecto u his own town .' \ think .-k
};reat deal of disc<]iini can lie uiveii iIk; articles in ipievtion. in view of the person »l»i»
wrote them.
m
:i ■:.i:;;i|:
!|
.
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
3.'?031. But tlii-y wcru written Ity ii iiifiii wlio was liviii<; tlicrc ut ilu' tiiiit' ?— I
know as much about local oj)tion in Carman as the cditoi' of the ]iapi'r. f was there
fre(jui'iitly.
.S.'iO.'ili. Yi)U think tliat you, as a visitor, know as much about it as a ivsident. Will
yuu say that those statements are not true : tiiat the Church <tt" En^jland services weic
not chanj^ed from one Imiidiiif^ to another /-No.
3;i(j;{;{. Will you say that it is not true that ladies found the lanyua^fe so vile and
filthy used towai'd them that tliey had to keep out of the way of it at the time that the
Act was enforced ? — I will not disj)ute that.
.■$.'?0.'M. Will you dispute that whisky was brou<;lit into (Jarman by express?— I
am aware myself that whiskj' was brought into Carman at tinies, but not in large
quantities.
By Jiev. Br. McLeod :
',V.]03~). Speaking about men using im])ro[)er language in the jn-esence of ladies :
would they be more apt to avoid doing so under a license system/- 1 1 would be tiie
same in anv case.
CHARLES H. CORiriNCLEY of Winnipeg, Accountant, on being duly sw,>rn,
deposed as follows ; —
Jii/ Judge McDoiKild :
'.y.iO'Mj. I am infornu'd that you ai'e the Secretary of the Licensed \ iotuailers' Asso-
ciation of Manitoba?— Yes.
330.'57. How long have you li\ed in this ]irovinc(? ? 1 have been here six years.
33031^. Did you come from one of the other ])i-ovinces?— F came from .Montreal,
Quebec.
33039. Dui'ing the time you iuuc resided in JManitoba, have you li\i'd in Winnipeg
most of the time? — Yes, except when J have Ijeen ti'avelling about.
33040. Do you travel much? — I have not travelled nuich lately. Dui'ing the first
three years 1 travelled all o\er the country.
330+1. Has your attention been called to the working of the license lau in iliis
province? Y'es.
3304'J. How do you find it work? — It is better observed in Manitoba, including
M'innipeg, than I found it down below in the east.
.S.'iO 1.3. So far as you know, are its pro\ isions well comi)lied u itli as regards the
enforcement of the houis jirescribed and the jiersons who may sell? (ienerally : there
are always exceptions. There is, of couise, a low class of places in every countiy whei'e
you will find the law violated, but, generally speaking, the law is well observed.
.3.3014. Are there any suggestions you could oH'er to the Connnission as to amend-
ments or improvements to the law with a \iew to making it moi'e etticient ? — If the law
was bettei' attended to in regard to its enforct^ment, it would of course, have a better
efVect.
.33045. Jia\e you any reason to believe tiiat i.dulterated liquor is sold .' In Win-
nipeg there is a b( tter class of li(|Uor sold than f have found in any othei' place. T am
now sp(!aking of tw(Mity years' exjierience in the li([uor trade.
3304f>. Ha\e you found that the li(pior trafhc has ai v efTect upon the general busi-
ness interests of the conununity, that is to sav anv I'flei't of an in jurious character ?--
No.
33047. lias this piovince, during your resi<lence here, been |)i-ogressive?- -It has.
3304i<. 1 sup|iose there has been an increas(> of jio]>ulation and an increase of
wealth? — Yes, and it has incieased in prosperity genei'ally.
J. K. McLk.nnan.
150
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
llJit'U'
first
this
ulini.'
till'
lIuTC
.hiTf
ll'iul-
l.nv
M'tllT
Wiu-
T am
l)usi-
;is.
se of
3.'{049. Can you ;rive iiiiy statistical I'vitlciicc as tM tlic li(|iicii' trade in Maiiituha .'
— Ah Secretaiy of tlie Association I sent «»ut ii oifcular to tin- liotel-kt't'|H'i's all n\cf the
province, asking them sevei'al (|U('stions. I got a ceftaiii ntimlmi- of rei)lies.
;{.'?0r)0. Have you tabulated them? — I have the total figui'es. I submit a state-
ment. [Apjiendix 2.]
'?,'$ur)l. fn I'egai'd to hotels, of cviui-se tliey do other hiisiiiess besides .selling lii|Uoi',
they entei'tain guests, and they have a nuinbef of emjiloyees wlio aie not connected in
any way with the liquor bi'aiicii of the business? T sent out these circulais so as to be
able to submit this infoi'iiiatioii to the Commission,
.'53001'. This statement does not in-etend to say that all those persons are concerned
simply in the sale of liiiuor : but does it no( include the total number of employees in
the liotels ? -It would seem to do so.
.'5.'iO.').'5. Do you think all the people connected with the hotels would be thrown out
of employment? -The statemmt is not intended to indicate tht; nund)er of ]ieople who
would be thrown out of employment. The ))eople may lia\e misundersioo(| niy ipies-
tions. This, howexcr, is the answer I have recei\'e(l as regards the number of peo])le
who would l)e thrown out of ein])loyment, su[)posing a general i)roliibitory law came into
foi'ce. In some replies the number merely included the bar-men and the bartenders,
and in some cases, I am pretty sure, they included female help.
.■53().")1. I notice in your stateiu(!nt that 84 licenses are itist-rted, exclusive of the
city of AN'inniiieg? — I have r<'ceived replies from I'o out of the <S4.
Bi/ lirr. Dr. McLmxI:
3305."). How long is it since you sent out the circular '. It was dated < )ctober l.'ith.
3305(1. You did not send it out till afterwards? — I received 8 answers to-ilay.
33057. This is your own testimony ? — Yes, I am merely giving you a sinumary of
tlie matter. I am accjuainted with every man in the trade, and in some cases his own
opinion is expressed and in other cases it is not expressed. 1 think this statement is a
very fair average, and T would ha\e been ready to put it in as from myself,
litj Judge McDomiJd :
33058. Have you travelled through Manitoba ! - Yes.
3.305!). Have you been at Carman ? - Yes.
.330(10. How often have you l)een there \ — Three times.
330(11. What law was in force respecting the sale of liquor \\ hen you were there ?
— One time there were no licenses issued and afterwards there was a license law.
330(1l'. What was your observation as to the state of the town.' Ic udd always
get anything I wanted to (h'ink, whetlier local option was in force oi' not.
330(1.3. How about the other sections ? — As regards Treherne, it was the same.
.3.30(14. And what about the other i)laces ? I iu'\er was in a local o]ition town yet
and could not get a drink, although f am a moderate drinker : l)Ul when I feel like
getting a drink, T want to be able to get it.
.\lbert and
,'et a dri!d<.
Yes, it was two years
Albert it was \ery
go' a i,dass of very
33065. Ha\e you i)een in the North-west Territories ! Yes, ti 1
Regina.
.330()(). How did you find the law carried out there ? -I di
3.''i0(17. Was that when the prohibitory law was in force ?
ago.
33068, What kind of liquor was it, good or bad .' — In I'rinct
bad liquor, and I flid not repeat the drink scry often. In iiegina,
poor whisky.
330tl!). Then you went further and fared worst-?— Yes.
.33070. It is hardly necessary to ask you whether you are faMiurable to prohibition.
What is your ojiinion on that subject? 1 am not a drinker, but I wduld hate to b >
deprived of taking a glass of beer. I think it wotdil fte an interfereni'e with personal
liberty. I am op))osed to it on principle.
33071. Supposing such an enactment was passed, could it, in your judu'inent, be
enforced ?- Xotoidy would it be impracticable, but it would be impossible.
151
^^1
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
IVM)''2. Ill ciisc siifli ii liiw wiis piisst'd, (In yoii Im-IIcm' it wmtld he riplit tliat »'(Hii-
pensiitinii slimilil In inii Ic to lncwcrs iiiid (listillcrs t'nr Utsy nt' |ilaiit mid iiiiicliiiifi v ?—
I)('cid('dly ; not only to Ijivwcis and distilit-rs, l)ul lo iiu-n wlio would he t'oiccd out ot'
tlir caliini;.
Jiy Rf-e. Dr. Mchod :
■V207''^. Would you j,'o furtluM', and say tliat coin]nMisati(iii should hi' itivm to tlicsc
licolilc \\\,n wci't' dcprixi'd of tli(( lihcily of getting a drink ( Tlieiv is no connifiisation
that would satisfy such a casi-.
/ii/ Jii(f(/<' Mr l)<iiiiilil : ,
.'1-"}071. Would tlu'V 111' d('iiri\t'd of thai lihcrty -liolding your \ icw of tin- cnforcc-
iiiciit of till' |pio\ision ttv would llu'y 1m' ahli' to get drink .' Would they iioi hi- ahlc
tci gi'l it in such ail event .' ^'cs.
lij/ Rei: Dr. Mrl.r„d:
.■)."i()7"). Thi'ii is there any interference with jiersonal lihcrty .' 1 could get a drink,
no doiiht, if 1 felt like it : hut I would not care, hecause then I would run the risk of
getting other ])eo|ile into troiihle. I would not want a man to hreak a law for nie. Jf
I can go and ohlain a glass of whisky as a riglit, I want to do so: liut, at the same
time, I would hesitate to iisk a man to lireak a law for me.
Ihj Jndiji Me Diiiiiihl : ^
'XM)~i\. l'"roni your ex]ierience, would you fa\(iiiran increased use of light wines and
ales and a diminished use of the heavier li(|Uors .'- Ves.
."i.'iO"?. ^'ou think tliat would he an advantage to the peojile .' I do; luii I am
speaking seltlshly, hecause T likeheer, hut 1 do not drink sti'oiig li(|Uoi .
liy Rrr. Dr. Mr Lead :
3307S. Would that not he an iidVaction of ihc lihcrty of the man who wants
whisky instead of hcer ' 1 fa\c)ur the increased use of light wines and heer \\\ moral
suasion.
.■};i()71). Speaking .diuiit depreciation in projierty : do you helic\e there would he "lO
per cent depreciation in jiroperty '. -Yes. not only of the proiierty that wnukl actually
he thrown out of euip'oyment hy the enactment of the law, hut it would depreciate the
\alue of other property in the city.
.'{liUSt). Then you think other property would depreciate if the saloons were closed ?
Yes, decidedly. As many liouses would hq out of use, the natural ell'ect would he to
de]ireciate the \alue of other projierty.
.'i.'iOSl. lia\o you ohserved n liether the existence of the saloons depreciates the
\alue <if property in the \ iciiiity ? -I have never known it so.
.■);5USl.'. Ifave you ever ohserved whether tiie existence of the saloons caused
property to he sold, hut not for homes ? — In what way do you mean ?
.S.S()S;5. Px'cause of the inahility of the patrons of tlie saloons to hiiild homes on
account of patronizing the saloon .' Ymi mean that a certain numher of men will
siiuander money in the saloon ?
Ji.'iOSh Do \ou know that properly in the vicinity of the saloon is depreciated in
value, and that the insurance rate is increased hecause of the proximity of the saloon ?
— No. I heard that statement made ahout increased insurance, and I Ncry inueh
douhted, at the time, the correctness of the assertion.
.'ioOS.*). I )o you helievethat all those eiiiployees you ha\(' indicated would he thrown
out of employment f I think that a discount can he made on the numher.
.S,'?OS(). Do you helieve that those thrown out of employment would goto other
sections of tlie country in vain to find something to do \ -\ do as regards ^^'ilUlipeg. 1
know that there are a numher here now who are seeking employment. In my store
to-day there was a man who wanted employment.
.■i.'iOf<7. Then if there was an increase in the numher of licenses, those people would
he ahle to tiiid eiuployiiient ? — No,
CitAiii.Ks II. ("oi!ni\(;Li;v.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Pii|)ers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'i;iO)^H. W'liy ; Hffiiusf us it is iin\s. it is Ncry liiird t'cir a iiimiln'r nt' llin^c in tlio
inidc cvi'ii to I my tlicif wiiy.
:{.'t()S!t. Arc llii'ir toil many of tlicin in the trfulc ! Yes.
.'i.'iO'.)U. Tiifii yoii tliiiik it would Ijc bcttcf to lnuc a less iiiiinlti'i' in \\'inni|ii';; than
is the case now ? -To ii wi'tiiiii e.xtcMt it would lie Ix'ttcc foe tliosc Ict'i in llic trade, t'or
it Would uiakt' tlicni ahlc to iniikc niofc money.
,'!.'i(l',) 1 . 1 )o you think lieensinn a nuinhei' ut' places wmild diniinisli I lie nuuiliei' ot
diunkaids .' No, J do not.
.'i.'iU!*:.'. Then icijucinu' the nunilicrot' iieensc<l places hy means of liiL;li licence does
not lessen the iiiuount of di'inkint;, Imt gives ii nioiuipoly to a .select t'ew in the trade '. —
Yes, of the hetter class, and at the same time it increases illicit sale.
.'(.'{()!);?. Then there are classes and ;,'ra(lcs in the t r;ide f lliirh lii
monopoly to a few of the hetter class and encourat;es illicit trade
•ense l;1\c
.'i.'iU'.l h is there illii'it trade in \\ innipe;,' .' I knovs of one case in which a man
was hrou;,'ht to hook and punished.
.■(.■(U!)."). Was tliat through tlie instrument.ility <pf the 1
it was a recent cas(> in the ))olice court
iccnsees
I could not sii
.'i.'iO'.Ml. Is tiiere illicit sale l>v licensees, such as selling after lioui> and on Sundav;
I lia\e heard of such cases : four of them were lir(
lUL'ht uip last we
l.'JOl'T. 1 understand that \du are an accountant in --nnic cit\' linn
am u It Ii
Carey
&('
.'i.'iODS. In what trade is the linn engaged .' Wholesale wines ami lii|Uois.
.■).'lO'.t!>. I understand that vou are .Sccrclar\ of the l.,iceiised \'ictuallers' A
ssocia-
tion. What is the ohjcci of that Association.' The hy law of the .\ssociation stat«)S
that :
" 'I'lic olijcct of tills iissociatiiiii sliall )i(^ tci uiiili' all tlic iiiciiilicis tlicrcet' in a .inciiil (■(iinpiii't f(ir
tlic purpose of protect iiii,' tlicii' lights, it'si.stinj; ailiilnirv or iiMJiisl laws icliitin;; to llicir l)Usiii('.'<s. to
u.--sist till' iiiitlioi'itii's ill tlic siip|ircs>ioii of low iiiiil iiiiliccniscd houses, to iiiaiiilaiii the rcspcctiilijlity
of its iMcmlicrs. to )j;allicr ami (li.vsciiiinalc practiccil and iiscfiiliiiforiiKitioii rclatiiii.' to the liadc in
nW its ljcaiiiij,'s, to refute and repel the unjust uspcisioiis cast upon the Inele hy many sociilii'd
ti'iiipeiiiiice people, ami to vindicate the lltitli liascd upon the e\pei ieiue of all civilizeil eoiiinniiiities ;
that lhioiii;li fair and reasonahle lii'cnse laws, properly I'lifoiced, the cause of rational teinperiiini' is
most Miitly advamcd ami sustained. l''iiially. to proiiiote social friendship .iml nooil will, c'luoiim^r,.
all j.'ood ijualities of head and heart, and keep ^'ood-fellow ship with all true friends of >'i\il ,'ind
relijiious liherly.
:i:nOO. You think that the trade d
Iocs iiccomi)
I
it does " encoui age all good ipialities of head and heart ".' There a
ill every soei(!tv.
>lish those results im'iitioned and that
re alwa\s it
lack
sliecii
lUl. Y'^ou are associated toijcther to see that all fair
nd reasoiialile license law?
are properly enforced : does the association do that .' it is only recent ly that weha\i
iieeii ori'iinized
• >IOl'. How loiiu has thesocicls heeii in e.sisteiice
Thri
■I'C imuiths, hardiv that.
think.
.'f.'ilO;!. His Worslii|i the Mayor has informed us that there has heen ,ui attem|it
itliin the last ten days to secure hetter enforcement of the I,
tl
le associations ai
■ti\ itv '? No. it
recently went around and asked the lii'eiisees to ohev the law.
IVMOi. Wliy ; Are the members of (h
regard to this matter? -Not olhcially.
s to pre\tMit the violatiiui of the law ; ai
iw. Is t hat I he reason of
d I
e association co-oper;iting wiili each other in
•5.'ilO."). I)id it come to your own kuowledoc that ollicer:
aliout to best ir tlieiii-
x'Kcs in regard to the enforcement of the law .' Last week four summonses were
taken out.
.■>;ilOt). Was tluit the ivason you went around and told the liceji.sefi victuallers
that they had hetter he careful ? Not that they had better be careful, hut tiiat they
should simply ohserve the law.
•'{."UU". The association did not assist the olHcers to enforce the law, hut wiien it
found that otHcers were going round to look after illicit sale, the licensees were told to
be on their guard and were advised to ohey the law. Is that correct'/ — The asstwiation
was not aware that the otHcers were making anv extra efforts tu maiiitain tlie law.
153
:^i■
I i
\
IMAGE EVALUATION
TEST TARGET (MT-3)
1.0
I.I
• 50 ■^"
IS.:
1.8
1.25 lu
U
« 6" —
►
~5,
■»
S"
-^
>/
''y
Hiotographic
Sciences
Corporation
23 WeST MAIN STREET
WEBSTER, NY. 145S0
(716) S73-4503
M
a.
V
:\
\
Iv
#t^
A
<\
w '^o^
ii
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■{.'tUW. Is it (>n<' rule of your asHiH-iutioii that its ineinlMTs must oln-y tlio liiw ? Yt's.
.'{lUUD. NVIieii iiiciiiImts )ir«' known not to oIk'v tin- law, art- tlicy disciplined?
Tlipy will Ik' if the matter is hi'ouglit to the association's notice.
;{.'U 10. Is it the case that sonn' of the memlnTs do \ iolate the law f - That has not
been done as yet.
'.\'M 1 1. Is it the duty of the nieml)ers of the ass(Miation to inform the others alxuit
illicit sales? Yes.
■J.'U 12. They have done that? They have not had occasion.
.■13ll.'{. Have you any idea that there is illicit sale in Wiimipej^ .' What is your
impression from your ohservation or from hearsay? Do you mean by licensed or un-
licensed dealers ?
•'<3II4. I mean by authorized peo]ile selling .' I have heanl of one case, and that
came to my knov/l(Hl;{e inilirectly l)y hap|H;niiig Ut >{o to the |Milice court, where [ fourul
a man Ih-Iii^ trie«i on that charge.
•V.W l'». You say that there liave Im-cii some licensees Kned for selling after hours? —
No, r have said sunuiione<l.
M.'H H!. Have none within thc^ last three months been fined ? Not to my kin)wledf;e.
'^^M I 7. Theii those thref! nu-n were summone*! and have not yet In-en dealt with ? —
The cas<'s have U'en poNt|Hined, and I iH'lieve they will lie ti'ied to-morr.iw.
33118. .S',ij)jH>sin<; they are lini>d, will the society lake notice of the fact and disci-
jline them for violating the law ( No doubt notice will be taken of the fact.
331 19. 1 see you do not believe in prohibition? No.
33120. Your reason for »iot I elievinj^ in it is. I understand, that you think it would
Ix- impo.ssible to eariy it out. Why? IJecau.se it xMiuld be an interferen<-e with the
lilxMty of tiie subject.
33121. Is the only liberty of the subject the lilM-rty lo drink, or is that his ( hief
liln-rty ? — It is one of his chief liberties to decide what he shall «'at and drink, for any
man by law has a ri^ht V> decide what he shall ea' and what he shall drink.
3.312'J. You think it would be such an intei-ference that it would 1k» impossiiile to
carry out the law? — Yes.
33123. Is it right for parents to protect against what they regard as a nienice to
their childien and to the ha|)piness of their families and their homes? A man can pro-
test or d I what he thinks proper, but he caiuiot compel me to take his view of the subject.
3.3121. If he regar Is your tiade iis a constant danger to himself and to his Uiys
and to his neighbou.r's boys and t«) the <(>minunity ai large, is he right to interfere witii
danger ami remove that danger if he can? Certainly, if he can.
33125, Are they right to ask for the overthrow of the drink trade? A man has a
right Ut do whate\«'r he thinks proper.
The
33127. What is your ojiinion as to ihi^ <lrink trade and its efft-cts ; are those effects
beneticiil or injuri<pus? The moderate use of liipior is decid<;dly iM-neHci-d.
3312^. J am not speaking of the m<Mlerate or the excessive use, but of the drink
trade. Are its eflects benelicial or injurious? The effects if the nuKlerate use of liipior
are decidedly not Inui.
3312',t. Hut what is your belief, after 20 years' e.xpei'ience in the liipior trade ard
ln'ing officially corniected with it, of the effects of the drink trade and the drink habit f
— That i; does affect persons one way or ihe other it may affect perhaps one per cent.
331.30. 'I hen you think it injures one per cent? No more than that. It affects
some |)eople in that way, the sa ne as some jteople are .'ilfctt'd by ovci- indulgence in eat-
ing certain kinis of focid ; but I w<»ul<l not go so far as tosay that because a man makes
a mistake in over-feeding himself on certain to ds which ilisngree with him, all other
men must^ be depri\'<-d of those foiNh.
3.31.31. l>o \ou put the two cases on the siime level? No. Uiii 1 wouUl as so ii
dictate as to what kind of ftNHl a man shall eat as to what he shall drink. If a man
wants to drink, let hiui drink. If he mak)>s himself a nuisance or is a burden or inter-
feres with other people, then let that man In- punisluHl.
.'<.3|.'{2. Then you think ev»'ry man has a right In do what he thinks is propei' f
Providing he is not hurting his neighbours.
ClIAHLKH H. CoUtJINOLKY.
IH'I'?-
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'i.'U .'t.'V If tiif (■itiiiiiiiiiiity tliiiik tliat the drink trailt- is hurtful to its iik-iiiImth, is it.
right fur tlit- <-()nihiuiiity to overthrow tli<- drink tiailc? No, I do not tliink so.
.'J.'U.'U. Do you l»»'ln'Vt' thcM' is iiiiy ri;;ht aiiyv.ln'rc to interfero with .In- firink
tradi'? In wliat way /
.131 .'$."». |)o you l;t'li«v«^ it would he riglit for anj" |)ow«m' under any eiirunistanees to
iiiteif<M'e witli 'he (hiiik trach' ! Do you mean tin' manufacture, iiiijiiirtation and sale /
.3;il.'{(). 1 mean the whole of it / — ]f a (JuvertnneMt. sustained hy the people, say it
must not Ix', iiiiturally 1 say : o! ey the law. I am a stickler in rej^ard tooU-yin;; the law.
.■{.■il.'<7. So then if Parliament, voieinj; the feelin;; and desire of the people, should
eniiet a pi'ohiliilorv law, you lielieve that it would he ri;iht ? -Yes,
.■{:i|.iS. You iM'lieve that all men should oltey the law? 1 helieve decidedly, that
all men should uIh'V the law.
I)istri(.'l of
.Methodist
IMtO. Do
Kkv. John SKMMKNS, of Winnipe};, on Immm^ duly sworn, de|M>sed as ftdlowM: —
//// Jiulyi- McDdnaht :
.'<;U;{!I. AVith what reli;L;ious denomination are you connected ( I am a minister of
the Methodist Church, and I am President of the Manitohi and North-west Conference.
'•V'W lU. How lon;^ have you resided in Maiiitoha .' For live years.
.'5'U4I. |{<'fore you came here where did you reside? I resided in the
KeewatMi for a numltor of yeais. It is L'O years since I came to the city.
X\\ \'2. From what pi'ovincedid you come.' From Ontario.
;{.'JII.'5. We have had alreiuly hefoi-e the Commission the opinion of the
Church i>f Canada on the liipior tratlic, <;iven at the (o-neral Conference in
you personidly coiK-ur in that view .' I do : I was a nienilM-r of that Coiiferenire.
■'{."U 1 1. I sup|)ose the action was unanimtius ? Pi'actically s(», I think.
•'i."M4."». Ymi concur in it, at all e\ents '. There was no I'eserva'ion so far as I was
ciiiicern«Hl.
.'t.'U HI. That delixeiaiice was strongly in faxnurof prohihition. Is that ynur opinion
also,' Yes.
.'t.'U 17. Has the Conference, as a IxHly, passed on the ijuestion of ifranliri!.' compen-
sation to l>r<'wers and <listillers in the event of a geneivil prohihitory law heinj; enacted !
I am not aware that the subject of grunting compensation to hrewei's and distillers
has ever Iw'en taken up hy the Conference.
'■V.\\ IS. What is your personal \ iew in n-gard to that matter '. .My jiei'sonal \ iew is
that com|)ensation uould not lie demaiideil, is not e>'pecte<l, and slioidd not lie made.
'■VM \\K You think that justi<'e would not reipiire it .' Yes.
.'{.'UoU. Taking the license law, hast- you any suggestions you would like to makeas
to amending the law '. I hardly know how to answer that i|iiestioii.
.'!.'il.">l. ])oyou consider the license law itself to he a sin ' To my own mind the
tr.iHic is sinful ; and the licensing of it would lie of tin- same charai ter.
-■l^U.")'.'. That \ iew, of course, nnist lie taken as i|ualifying an answer J ^'es.
.'l.'U'>.'t. hut taking the license law a-^ it is now in e.xistence, are there any ameiid-
mentsycu could suggest '. There are amendments I could suggest, one of which is to take
away the licenses from saloons and conhne the sale of liipior to houses of puhlic enter-
taiinnent. It occurs to me that the sidoons exist merely for the purpose of handing
liiplor out to men. That feature of tlie trade should lie aiiolishe<l.
H.'U.")4. Are there any other suggestions you could make ,' I entertain a very strong
feeling on this ipiestion. I have heard ipiestions asked hy the Commission in regard X*t
drink and drunkenni>ss. \\\ my opinion the first class hotel is likely to he more sed net i>";
I"
I'
arranged so that pt'ople entering hy the front door would not see the bar of the hotel.
.■J.'M.").'!. WhtM'e wouki you have the har place(i f I woulil have it perhaps on the
•'ide, entirely apart from the general tratlic. What I mean is this: the har is easily
166
!
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
ju;c«'H!<il»lf tVuiii tlif *Miti'itiir<>. .ti**!! tit" w«'iik ii|»|H«tit«'s will visit it on scry slij;ht prrtcxt,
wlnM-t'iis f lit'v NMiuld not fill H(i (»t't«'n pmlMihly if tliev Imd to niiiko souit' cHort t<» rt'iwli if.
.■{3ir»(>. Would you, tlit'ii. Iiii\t' it «li'tuch«>(l t'roni tin- other |iiirt of llie liousi' .' Yi's.
S.'MT)!. Ai'i' tlifii' liny furtJHT sujJKfstionh you ilfsu'c to uiYw '. I hii\f no furtlitT
KUi^^fHtions to oH'cr on tliat line.
/!>/ Ii>-r. Dr. MeLexl:
'.V.Wiif^. Hiis MiinitolMi in its Nortli-wt-st ContVioncc tiikon hoiih' iwtion in tin- din-c-
tion of |)i-oliiliition : Iiiih it followed the line of the (ienenil Coiifei-enee and taken strong;
iietion in th; i'e;;ard .' i ha\e here itn latest rjeliverance. The lirst six pfovisions that
I will present to the I'onuuission were sul>iiiitte<| to the Conference and discussed, and
all ai't-epted t>y the Conference without reservation. 1 will read tiie provisions.
(Ap|H-ndix ■'{. )
■'t.'tl '>il. Have you hiid any op|Hirtunity of oliseVvin^ tiie ojieration of the license law
and l<K'al option ni this western country. I have not had an opportunity of ol)ser\in^
liH'al o])tion, liut I hau- oliservcd the o|M-rations of the license law.
■'ilt|(>(J. Have you ol)ser\<ti that a licen.se law really rliniinishcs drinkin;: ! I
liavc not.
■'t.'Udl. You have already said, I understaiui, that you |N-rsonally are in accord with
the delivei-ance of youi' Conference (Ml tliis sulij;Tt : so I .s<'arcely need ask you whether
you are in fa\oin- of proliiliition or not ? I am.
•{■'U<i2. liaxe you noticed the operation of the pr<iliiliition law
in Keewatin ' Ves, I have, and i have also iia<i a view of prohiliition that no one has
mentioned to this (.'ommission. Prohibition was intriNlu<-ed hy the Hudson Itay
Company many years a;;o, and its efl'ect was felt o\er the whole Territory then ;;o\criied
liy the Cotnicil yf « hici' Sir (ieor;;e Simpson was the I'l-esident. 'I'hat prohiliition was
decidnl u|H)n liy the Hudson Hay Company's Council in session, for the jiurpose of
prottctin;; the hunters on the one hand and for the pur|Hise of preser\ ini; the Company's
tra<le on the other hand. It was carried into eMect in the most wholi-sali' fashion Ity the
refusal of the authoi-ities to ship any licpior from Kn;;laiid, aiul foi- a nunilier of years
this prohihitioM prexailed all o\er the North-west. 'I'he immediate result ot' it was that
n the North-west o
Itusiness increased, that tht* health of the people
was xcrv
much
I improved an.i life was
preserved I know that from ohservation, 1 know- it also from statements ma<le. and I
also know it from printed statements of the Hudson Hay Company, issued heforc this
I"
'ovince W)
as a province of the Homiuion.
^.'IH'tH. l>oyou know what induced the Hudson Hay C'ompany to take that action '.
The fact that their ^ains were fall in;; oH". Itinn was very fri-ely used, the hunters
were dyinji, the trade was sull'erinji and somethini; must Ite done. The Council came to
the iH*Mcue, and at once decided that this must Im- done w hich I have indicate<l, and it
was (ion<
am
I th
•,xpi
ession I
if the Council was tha^ the measure was a lienelicial om
iKitii ius t<i the hunters' h*>alth and as to the tinaucial retin'iis of the company.
.'J.'Jhi! ^'ou Would re;{ard that action as a liusiness one on the part of the Hudson
Hay Company .' I think it was, although in their charter there is a <listinct di.use
which sets out that they have not only liusine»is intliiences over the communities hut
social and reli;{ious ones as well, and they work in accordance with those terms.
a practical pioliiliitory
ia\e a
;i.'il(iri. ho Von know anv instances of the enforcement of
I 1
law in the Hudson j'ay Territory where the iMMietits weie very mai'ked
nuuilN-r of recollections respecting; men vvho were in the country and connected with the
company at that time.
.■<.'Uliti. Were you a missionary in that re;^don then? ^'es, for a numlN>r of years.
I know a numlN-r of men who were at that time haliitual drinkers, men who weie more
or less constantly un.li-r the inlluence of di'ink, who would make any .sacrilice to <ret it ;
liut when the supjily was cut oil', they iH-caine j.;<mkI I'iti/ens and alile hunters.
M;U (i('. |)o you know whether the men rested content with the supply lieinj; oH'f
I have heard them, with deep feeling;, declare their thanksjiivin;; tiiat it had Ik-cii cut off.
.■{HlCif*. So the comjiany's action was really a lilessiiiju; to them.' So far as my ex-
perience has (jone it was a |Misitive hlessin^. It was not only a lilessiu>i t" 'he indivi-
•hials themselves, hut to us.
Rkv. .Ioiix Skmmkns.
yriil'S
'^ tllill
WHS
n<l I
tliis
i.iii '.
liters
iif til
iiid it
mil'
llsilll
•li.iisc
I lilt
liliirv
67 Victoria.
ISesHional Pap6i*8 (No. 21.)
A. 18»4
.i.'tltit). Tilt- lluilsiiii Hay ('iiiii|iiiiiy in ilistributin^ li<|iioi' diil it, I liclii'vu, in tlit^
way uf tnidr / Yi's.
.'{.'M'O. Su|i|iitH*- till- iiuilsiiii hay (.'iiiii|iauy liiul ••slabiislu-il. at xarioiis |MiHt.H
tlii-iiii;i;li(iut tlif t»'rfitiirii's, lici-iisfil plafi-s uikIit c»'rtaiii i-i'stricti<ins. dn ymi tliiiik tliey
would have a(vuiii|ilisli('<l flu- same result as was scrnrfd liy adnptiiiv' a drastic iiii>asuri>
lit' |ii'iiliil)itiiiii ! Tlii-y liad tlial, |ii'ii(-tii-ally, all tin- tiiiu-. Tlic |M'ii|ilr li\i-d in t'urts, and
wtTi' |iractieally haiiishcd tVniii tlic fi>iii|iaiiy of wliitv ini-n. Tlu-y wi-i'i- (ifactieally pru-
hiliitiiinists, and yet uiidi'i- that syslcin and undi-r tlinse rcstrirtiuiis, .In- evil rn'pt in
whifli till- Ciiuncil saw must In- I'lMimvi'd.
;<.'tl7l. H«'s|KTlin;; thf pulilir t'fi'lin;; in Manitolia : do ymi )ii-lii'\i- that tlif ri-ci'iit
|ilfliis<'it<' was a fair and hiincst I'xpri'ssiuii uf iId- pulilic- di'sin; and piir|M>sf respecting
the li(|uur trad" f I have nu reasmi tn think utiierwise : I have never seen any reason
fur thinking; otherwise. I lielieve, so far as the plebiscite went, it was ar. honest expivs-
sion of pulilie opinion.
^litl'-. l>o Von consider that the vote was a lar^e one as compared with the vote fur
the meinliers of the I,e;;islat Ul-e .' ^'es.
.■5.'{I7.{. Jlave you reason, from your kuuwledj;e of the country ami your knowled;;e
of the pi'ople. to Ix-lieve that if a general prohiliitory law were enacted, it would lie
fairly well enforced .' I shoulil lie ;;uilty of lacking' respect fur my fellow cuuntrymen
if I mule a stuleineiit tu shuw that I did nut lieliexe it.
.'i.HlTI. So you expect the i'rox incial (iovernmeiit at the next session of the l<«'^i-.
lature to intriHluce a measure for prulnliitiun, I suppo.se .' I do not think that I ha\e
faith enuu^fh to dare to ex|iecl that much. I have Iiojk', however, that they will mo\e
in the rijLiht direction. F would not ha\e prohiliition iiidess it could lie in force
constantly.
.'i;U7.'i. Which would you prefer. I'ruxincial prohiliition or l^ominion prohiliition !
I Would \ery much prefei' hoininion pruhiliiliuii.
^l.'UTli. In vuur upiniun would the hominion (iuvernnii'iii >uliniit a iaruer ;iiid
more perfect measure '. Yes.
/»// ./ii(/</t' .]/r/)<iiiiifil :
.'l.'UT'. Doyou kn<iw whether the Hudson Hay Company liaxe liijiiui at iheirstores
now ' Nut unless it is for private sujiply.
■M'f^. Was the pri\ale supply for their own factors e\er dune away with '. No.
.H.'UT'.t. So the result was that the factors con
use? \'i'f\ larjfcly so, althoueji the Company s la
into the North-west except liy special permit from
111
a
w
Iw
IS
av'.
that
olit
li.
till
w
lUu
t
IC
1.
ieut)
'iiaiit (
lii|Uor for their own
dd
i< i\ eniur.
nut lie
laki
:{;>.. "^tt. That
was
the I
aw until reci
iitlv
.'i.SISl. We have evidence liefore the Commission from the manager of the store.s
here that the Company deals in lit|Uur in this city ,' Ye-, | was speakinj; ahout
Kecwatin. entirely.
The Commission adjourned
I
icars.
mure
•I it ;
m
Liquor TratHc — Manitoba
\V[NNII'K(J, OituU-r -JTtli. 1S9J.
The CoiiiiiiiHMion met tlii.s day at I ! a. in.
JuuoK McDonald. Hkv. I>i<. McLkud.
Tmi-; JIdn. .inllN SCIU'LTZ, Lieut. (Jim-nior of ^[llllit<>lM^ aj.pean-d Ix-fdif the
CiHiwiiissioK ami |it'eHeiite(l a written .statement, whieh wa.s reiul, as fuilow,s :
Td the lliMiDiiraltle the nieiiibei's of tiie Uoyal Cuniinission on the Liquor Tratlie in
session at Winnipeg.
(lentlenien,
.'Ctlf^lct. In re(|uesting nie to make a statement iM't'oi'e you upon the various inattecs
within the s('o|)e of your Connni.ssion, I ini<ierstanil the suhjeets to lia\f lieen classilied
undef several heads as follows:
1. The ell'eet of the lii|Uor tratlic upon all interests ati'ected hy it in Canada.
'1. The nuNisures which have heen adopted in this an<l other countries with a view
to lessen, re^rulate and prohihit. the trattie.
.'{. The results of these measures in each case.
4. The eHect that the enactment of a prohihitory liquor law in C.uiiida woidtl Inive
in respect of social con<litions, a^'ricultural, liusiness, industrial and coinnicrcial interests,
of the revenut- rei|nirements of Municipalities, Piitxinces and the hominion, and also, an
to its capaliility of eHicient enforcement.
T). All othi'r ird'orniatiftn l)earin^ on the (piestion of proliihition.
1 have to request that what I am now alMtut to say may i)e considered as r<>latin;j
mainly to that part of the |)ominion with which I am most familiar, \i/., from Ontario
to the Kocky ilountains ami ])articularly to Manitolia. Passing I>y the first of these
subjects to deal with it inclosing this statenieni, I have to say regarding No. 'J, that I
••anie to this country in lf«i(); that the conditions then ohiaining were, civil goM-rn-
ment i)y the Hudson Hay Conqiany. whose chief resident otlicial was styled the (Jover-
nor of Assinihoia, aided hy a Council .selected hy the Hudson l>ay Company's directors
in [jondon, whose finictions were atlvisory and legislative rather than executive ; the
circidar Teiritory thus governed Iw-ing called " Assinihoia," the extent of which was a
radius from Cpper Fort (Jarry of T)!) miles. Atnoiig the laws passed hy the (io\ermtr
and C'omicil in IHCii', were the following relating to fiu'iiishing the means of intoxication
to Indians :
" If liny |)('i'!«iii, witiioiit iliHtiii('tii)ii of riic'c, xuppiy •>!' soli to any pi'ismi ixipuliirly know as an
Iniliaii, oi' any ini>inl>cr of an Ip.ilian nation, the means of intoxication, he !<liall, on Ix'in^' convictcil
ln't'off a petty lontt, on the oath of one or more witiiesseH, !«• lined for each otTenee, as follows :
Two poiniils for fui'iiisiiin^' any lnvwin^' uten^<ils, the line to pi to the inffii'iner :
Three poitncis for fiuiishin^ mail : the line to pi to llie inforiner.
h'ive poiiniU for furniHliiii^ lie'-r or any fernienteil lii|iioi' ; llie line to pi to tile inforiner.
Ten poiinilM, for fiirniHliiii^ ilislilleil spirits, or any otiier iniineiiiate caiiHe of intoxiciilion lliuii
fernienteil lii|iiorH : half the line to pi to tlie inforiner.
In every ca.se the oll'eniler, after eonvirtiiiii, to 1«! iinprisoneil until the tim; is paid.
In addition to tiiese lines, the iiHendei' siiall make rcHtitiition to the Indian of all the eipiivalent
which he nuiy have received, if any, for such fniiiisiiin^, every part of siicli e>|iiivalent, not lieiiig
money itself, lieiiig valued for the purpose at prime eoMt.
If an intoxicated Indian eomniil or threaten to eominil an iinprovoketl violelici', lii> may he impri-
soned, in addition to any spueitic piiiiishmuiil, till hu primeciite the |>ura<m who niiiy have liet'ii guilty
in the matter.
If any ju'i'sdii possess, or have (KixHessed, malt or liuer or spirits, or any other of the alKive meaiiH
of intoxication in the s<H-iely or tuat of any Indian, he shrill lie held gnilty of furnishing siieh iiieaiiH
uf intoxication to IndiaiiH.
Hon. John Hciiultz.
16H
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
And the f<tlliiwiii;{ Ijrciis)' l^ikw, wliicli was iiin«'ii(li>*i fiirly in Jiinuiirv, |Ht')ti, and in
the sprinn, full iind wintiT »it' IMCiH: —
It hIiiiII III' likwfiil for lilt' Ik'Iii'Ii of tiia^i.'<li':kt<'H of llii' |M'it('i' itiiil |H'tty coiirtM in liicir Hcvcritl
iliHti'it'tM aNNciiiliU'il, oil till' lirxl Momlay of tin- iiioiitli of .liii. ' in i-ikrli yi'iir, or iit oilii'i- liincH wlioii
tlioy ilri'iii it i'.\|H'ilii'iit, to iHniii' lit'i'iiHi'N, wliirli will In- in fon't- till tlir tirit Momlay in .liiiii', tlu'ii
iittxt following, to a|i|ii'ov('il a|i|ilimntK (wlio Mliall lir lainl ouih'I'n in tin- xi'ttlriiii'Mt), allow iiih' ilif
Mall* by I'l-tail on tlii'ir own pi'i'iniiirK of all HpiritH. uiiii'M ami Ihti- lawfully ini|ioi'tril. or of naiivi-
inanu^irtiiir (all i|uantitii-M of wiiii' ini|Hirti'>l iimli-r om- pilloii, anil all iinantitii'H of U'lr iiiiilrr ri^>lit
gall
xliall III
iitfil irtaili ; tin- hiiiii of ten |huiiiiIn In- |Nkiil for a liri'ii.si' m> isNiii'il for tlii' sali- liy
I'l'tail of iM'i'r aloiii- ; ami any iirrHoii Hi'iling HpiriiN, wini' ir In'rr liy rrlajl, witlioiii hihIi Ijii'iiki', uliail
oil ronvirlion iH'fori' a iH'tty I'oiirt. on tin- mktli of our or nioi'i- witni'.iHC!!, for rarli oll'i'iiri', pay a lint'
of ti'ii poiiiiilH sti-rliiiK, anil III' iinprisoiii'il until tin- liiii' Ih' |iaiil oiii' half llir liiii' nliall ;.m to tlir
info' -in'r, ami tlir furin of tlir lii-riiNrs Hliall Ik- ari'orilin>{ to hi'IiiiIuIi' A or ll; any otl'i'mi' apiinNt
till' pi'ii\ JMionN of wkiil lii'i'iiHt' shall III' |iaiil liy forfi'ltiiri' of thi' Maiiir : ami in ailililimi. In caxi' of
infriirtion of thr proviHJonH of said liri-iiNi'.s as ri'ganls liuliaiiN, thr otU'inlrr shall pay tlir sprrial
pi'iialty for fiirnisliing the nican.H of intoxiration to Imlians.
Til)' license issued under this last pi'ovisiun niiule the retail i|iiaiitity anythin;;
lei-li>
ve ualluns, anil
I siiliject III the fniliiwinj; feslriet ions : It eiillld liiil liesiild lietween
iini
the hiiiii's (if nine at ni;.'lit and six in the niiirniii<r, imt itt any hiinr diirini; the Salilialh,
nut til any intoxiealed jiersnn and never tu an Indian, iindei' penalty i if furfeil are of
the license.
Kai'h prtty riiiirt. mit of tin- fnml arising finin liiriisi's ami pi'iiallii's, shall ilrfray any ni'«'i'"sary
r\prnsi'H imiirii'il in rnfoniii); I lie laws against the illrgal sale of spiritH, wines or U'cr. or tin- furnish-
ing' of the nii'aiis of intoxieation to Imlians lu'coiritiiig tu the (iiivenior ami I'liiineil for all miu-Ii
ri'i'i'ipts anil I'Vpi'inlitiirt'.
No action shall lie for the remvi'iy of pniallii's for any lireach of the laws for ri'nulnliiii,' thr sale
of intoxieating liiinoiM, iinh'ss infonnalion shall have heen given within "i\ inonlhs after tin- loiiiinis
sion of thr oiri'iue.
In ailililion to the retail lireiise a whiili'ivkle liet'llHe whh isHiieil to siu'li persons as siipplieil iiituxi-
eating lii|Uors in larger i|iiaiititieH than live galliinH, the foe fur sneli lieenHe InMiig ten |Kiiimls.
The ii|ierati<in of these laws was confined, as I liave said, to a i-adiiis of .'id inijes
fi'diii l'|)])er Fort (iarry. The tiovei-nnienl of theemintry and the enfmeenient uf these
laws continued till NiixeinlH'i', ISfil*. when a jieriiMl of very lii;;h handed license indeed,
took the |ilace of constituted authority, and continiieti till the arri\al of the Canaiiian
and IJritish Kxpedilionary force under C'olnnel Wolsely, in Auniisl, 1S7(), after whicji
the Assinihoia laws were adoptiil liy the Lieutenant-Governor and Council till the
lirsl |'rii\'incial lji';,'islat lire had lieen elected and had time to lieal with the sulijecl.
The eiiuiinissir.il of the first Lieutenant (ioverniir of lh<> l'rii\ince of Mikiiitolm
eiupiiwered liiiii, with the assisiaiu f a Council, to make and enforce laws tor all of
the Canadian Noi'th-wesi, and this Council jiassed a ;;enei'al proiiiliilion law, which was
I'ufoi'ccd l»y the employment of the Mounted I'olice, H foi-ee raised partly for that |iur
pose, who promptly repressed the armed liipior forts known as "Stand-oir" anil
"Whoop-up ' and prevented the emplnymenl o^" liipmrfor tradin<,' purposes in the Nm'th
West. When railroad construelinn commenced in the North-west, a prohiliitiNc nieasiire
was adopted liy the hominion Parliament in those clauses of the I'ulilic Woik>.\i't
which relate to the lino of construction and its immediate neiirhlmurhiHHl.
The powers of the first Niirth-west Council ceased when a sepai'ate ( JnM-rnmi'iil
w
as i,'i\cn to the Xorlh west Territories in l>>H7, and the various restriclixi
d
lllliltive
them.
« )rd
MUinces o
f ll<at ( •overnineiil an
■II known that I need not refer In
The various .Vets of the Leoisjature of this Province are all so well known, ihey
tieei
I not he recapitulated liy me, iind you will no doulit have received tl
le ollicia
r
'iiiriis of the \ofes cast for and a;;aiimt prohihition at the lal«' K<'i"'''''d election in th
riivMue,
III the district of Keewatin, which is under the rule of the Lieutenant -( iovernor
of .Man it III I
1"
tliiliit ion has U'cn and is in force l>v virtue of I he followin'' clauses of
Caji. ."i;{ of the hominion Consolidated Statutes of ISSll : -
l'H(>miUTM>\ OK INTO.XU'AXT.S.
M.'i. No intoxicating lii|iiiir or oilier intoxicant shall lie inannfactnreil or iniule in the saiil ilis
trict, except liy special perniiHsion of the (iii\ernor in Ciiiincil, nor shall any into\icatiiig lii|nor or
iiiiiixicaiit Ih' ini|Mirteil or liroiight into the District froin any I'roviiice of Canaila, or efsewhere, or
i:i
159
*^ if
i; •)
Liquor TrafTlc — Manitoba.
Im' niiIiI, i-X('Iihiiu<>iI, ii'iuIi-iI, or liitrlci'i'il. cxii-iit liy H|M!ciiil |M>riiii>wii>ii, in writing, ot llii' Liriiti-nant
lioVdllnr.
;w V
411,
'A, iMiri.
'M\. liiliixiiatiiiK lii|iiiii'N ami intiixiriintM iuipiii'lvil m' lirmi^lit fioiii any plucc mil of Cuniula into
tiir DiNtiirt, liy special |M'iiiiiAMirin. in wi'itiiiu, of ilu' Iji'iituniini'tioviTnor, Nlmll Ih' Miiliji-ct tntlu'
iiHliiniH anil cxcinc laux •>
f (•
:«7. If
tiiv NMi'li nitiixKati
i"H 1"
40 V,
i|iiiii' or I
!t.
/Milt.
ntoxiianl in nianiifa<.'tnifil or niailf in tin- hiNiricI,
iin|Mii It'll or l.roii^lit into llif Hanir, or it miM, cxclian^i'il, trailnl oi luiitcrt'il, in \ inlalioii of tliix
Alt, it MJiall III' foifi'ilril, ami may lie Mt'i/.ni liy aiiv olliri-r of the riistoniM or cxciHc, or liy aii\ conx'
Uilili
illu'i iliily i|Ualilii'il prrson \^ lii'ri'MiH'M'i' toiim
III.
plaiiil
n.'tili' lii'lorr liiin, any
jiiilp', ^itipcmliarv nia^ist lalc or jiintiri' ol tlir |M'ai'r. Ill I'oniplaiiit ax afori'saiil, may innui' a Ncari'h
M arrant, aM in laNi's of nIoIi n )jooiIn iimlei tlir "Art rcHpfriin^ pioi'i'iliiii' in < 'riminal Case-
wlu'iitlir Haiiir iK foiiiiil. may raimi' it to lir f.irlliMitli ilcHtroycil : ami tlir Hlii
ly. k
«■>!.
I»
itNi', Imx. |Nirkiit!i' III' I'l'ri'plalili' w liciu'c or ill wliirli any iiitovii'alin>; lii|ni>r or intoxiianl liaH
lii'i'ii niaiiiifarliiii'il. imporlril or niailc, noM, (•vrliiin^'ol, traili'il or liartt'icil. ami ai wrll that in
wlilrli tlir ori^jiial niipply ^sa^' roiitaliu'il an tin' vi'mhcI \\ lici'i'in any p'irlion of smli original Hii|ip|y
wax Niippliril ax afoii'saiil. anil till' rt'inainili'r of till- I'oiili'iits llii'ri'of, if .siirli .still, mai'liincry, liar-
III. ki'^'. r.i'<r. lio\, parkiip-. ri'rrptai'lc or vcsxi'l afort'saiil, I't'Mpi'rtivi'ly. I'an lir iilriilitii'il, may I
il !■
IV olliri'i- of tin
•iistoiiiw or t'Xrisi', or liy any
lalili- or oIIk'I' iliily oinilitii'il priMin.
\vli('ir.'<o('Vrr tiMiml Mitliin tlii' histriit : ainl, on loniplaiiil lirfori' any jml^f)'. Mtipcmliai y iiia^i'<lrati
or jiiMtin- of till prair, lit' may, on tlu' I'viili'iiri of any rri'ilililc witiuHN lliat any of llii' proviMioiiN ot
llii.H .\i't liiivi' lii'i'ii vlolalril in rrspirt llii'irof, ili'i'larr .'•iicli intoviraljn^ lii|iiiii' or inlovicaiit, Mtill,
marliini'iy. m.ssi'I or icrrptarlr forfiitril. aii<l .aiiMi' tlir nanii' to lir fortliwitli ilt'Mti'oycil : ami tlu'
pCl'Mllll III W llOMI' pOMMI'MHilin I
• " ■ ■ ' III; ■■'-■
illar<. ami iiol ii" s tlian titty i
tnyoflliini is foiiml .tliall iiiriir a pnialty not I'Mi'filin^ oiir linmlicil
ly ilolliii'H, anil tin' to.sti of iirosi'riilion : ami ,> moiety of .-neh |>en,ilty
shall lieloiiu to the inforiner, anil the olhei inoiety shall l>eli>ii^ to Her Majesty for the piililie use
if ( 'aiiaila.
;«s V
<!•. s. 74, juii-/.
'•is. I'ivi'i'y peisoii who mannfai'lnres, maki's, impoiis, sells, exehan>;i's, iiiiiles or liarters an
intoxiratnit.' Iii|iiiii' or intoxiianl, exiepl ii\ spnial permission as aloreMjiiil, or in
wh
■se premises snh inlovieatin^' lii|iior or intoxieaiit ot any kiln
foiinil.
not exiee
the infoiMier. '.ix \'
iliii^ two liiinilreil ilollars ami not Ii'.sh than tifty ilollars. a moiely of w
wl
lose
IIOS
all
Illrlir
hi
h si
all
srMsion or
I pelia
4!l,
'4, /«((■'.
illK to
■<!l. Kverv person who knowingly has in his |io.sse.sHiiin any arliele. ehattel, coinnioility or tliiii);
pii; I'haseil, ai'i|iiiri'il. exehaii"eil, liaileil or liartereil. either wholly or in part, for any intoxiialinv
li |i|or o.' jntiixiianl. sliall. for eai'h iilVeiii'e. ilii'iir a penally not exneilinu two hiimlreil ilollars ami
It I
ess than liflv
i|o'lai>
74, /nil
rly of w hirli penally shall liiloii^; to the informer. .'tS \'., r. 4:1,
40, KMiy arliile, ehallel, I'ommoility or tiling, in the piinhasi'. aenni«iliiin. i'\ihaiii;e, tra'le or
li.irler nt whirh the roiisiileralioii. eil her w hollv
■r III part, is any intoMialin^' lii|iior or iiiloxii-anl.
lall lie folfeiteil to ller Majesty . ami shall lie seizeil iis hereililiefole proviili-il in respi'it to ali\
reeitptiii'le for any inloxiialiii^ lii|Uor or inlo\i
ant.
■AH V
«!>,
74. iKir/.
41. Kvery |«'rsiin who refuses or ne>;leils to aiil any loiislalile, snlii'onslalile or other iliiU
aulhoi
i/e.l
person in ihe exeiiilion of any ait or iliily rei|
liieil iimler any of t
le SIN si'i'tions ni'xl
preei'iliiij;, or wlm knowinttly refuses lo;;ive inforiiialinn. or j.'ivis false informalioii in resperl to any
nmliiil ilollars ami not less than
nailer arising iheretioiii. sli.ill iiuiii a penalty not exreeilini; two hi
fifty iliillars, a moiely .if w liirh penally shall lielopif.' to Ihe iiifiniiier. .'(S \',
40.
4, imiL
41. Kvery penalty imuiieil iimler any of the si'mh scrtions next preieiliiij,' shall lie reioM'lalile.
with losis of pnisi'ini ion. liy siiminai y loiix iri imi. on I he e\ iileiire ol one ereililile w it m ss, liefme any
jmljie. siipiniliary maj;istrale or jiistne of the peaie liavini; jiii isiliriimi in the ilistiiri; ami sii, h
,1'i
lipeniliaiy nia^'isl rate or jiislii'i'
it till
jieaie slia
II.
payment of ihe penalty . pay the Informei
Ills share Ihereiif : anil in ease of nun payment of the penalty ami the losls imiiieilialely after eonvii-
lion, the iiinv iitiiij.' jinliie. maj,'isirati' or jiisilir may. in his ilisrreliou. levy Ihi' same li\ ilistrt'ss ami
lie, or eommit the person sn tonv irieil ainl niakinu ilefaiilt in payment of the .s.iiil pnialty ami eosts.
" ' ip hiiiisr within the ilistiiit. for a term not exeeeil
re sooner paiil, ami, iipiin lonvii'l Ion for a snlisi
III any lonimon jail or
hill
isf of eiirrei'lion or
iii^ six months, unless the sai.l penally ami <
1.11
k n
OS
s a
1'
na
pieiil oH'enie. the iilFi inlir shall lie lialile to a penally Hot exieeiliii^; four lliniilreil iloll.irs ami not less
han Iwo liiniilreil ilollars. ami in the ilisiielion of the lonviitiiij; jmlp', nia|i;istrale or jiistiee, to
ihan Iw
iinpri.sonineiit fm a term not e\i lini; six months ,"IH V
4!t,
i4.
4:t. N
II .sel/nre, piosi'riilioli, loiiv let mn
II I'liinmilinent iimler this .\( t shall lie invaliil for want
if form, so liin^ as the same is aeenrilini; lo the true intent ami nieunin^ of this .\el. ,'<S V.,
4!»,
:4.
/"
!*«<i tlifit iiiitil till' iTi'i-iit .NiH'tli wi'si I ti'iliiianrcN, I >iiiiiiiiiiiii |ii'(iliiliitiiiii ciiactiiii-iils
iioveii'tl all tlial part nt" Catiada, i'X('i'|it .Maiiitolia, wliieli lit'.'< iM-twet'ii ( Mitarin ami
Iti'itisli ('iijiiinliia, aiiil lii'tweni tlio .Slates iif .Miiiiicsuta, .N'nrtli Dakuta ;iii(l .Muntaiia In
llic iiorliu'rii liiiiil nf Caiiaila ami tiie imrl li-ca.'<lfni limit nf Ala.''^ka, .i Icriilury iiniri'
than Inilt' tlir ai'ca nf tin- \vliiil<> I tdiniiiinii.
As I am imt alilt> In speak tVuiii .tetual kmiwlcd^ro of tlu* mrasiiri-s wliicli iiavi' lieeit
aiiopt(>(l ill other CDiiiitries with a view to les.seii, i-e;;iilate ami pi-ohihjt the litpiiit- 1 ratiie,
1 will ])ass III) lo the ('(iiisiileratioii of the third of tlu> heads ut' yuiir im|uirv, viz.: .'1. The
fi'sult of the measures in eaeh ciwo.
Hon, John Sciilltz.
1(J0
to any
cr iliily
|l!« lli'M
t 111 ;iiiy
s tliali
III.
M'tuldf.
toiT liny
I.I sll.'ll
11*111 HUM
■ iiinvir
li'ss aiiil
ii.l.-.>»l>-
cXll'l'll
1 sulisr
1 nut l'"*'-
lli.tirf. til
fill Wiilit
. 4!t, ».
tcllllflll^
ai'io iiinl
llltiUlil to
live liot'll
)!• I iiitlii-.
:i. Till-
67 Victoria.
ScMsional Fhjx)i-h (No. 21.)
.\. 1894
This l>i'iiii;s iiif to sjifiik nt' t Ih- tii'Hi ri-xt rictivi' iiicasiiri'H (if tlii> IIikIhoii May I'oiiipanv's
Disti'ifi fit" .VssiiiilKiiii. An to tlu-.Hf, | Imvc tu stale that tin- in<MMii'i-s, as at liisl adupti-d and
Hiil»)'i|iii-iit ly ainriidcd, ucri- ii|miii tlic whol)- well t-aiTicd nut, thiTf licini; a ('<iiis<'iisiis iif
i>|iihi<iii atiititi;; the whitrs and nthfi's in the Kcd Hivcr Srtl li infiil that thfsi' n-NtrJo-
tions wt'i'r nfr-<-Hsgtry and, kniiu ini; tiiat thi' < HiNcrnnicnt uf that day was withotit an
arnicd t'lirrf to rc|iii's^ any sciiiiii>
Ik' t<K> strin;i<'nt wliirh hail t'or its
havr said tliat \vh<-n I'anada oli
AssiiiilNiia lii|iior law was tfin|>oi-ai'ily cunl iniicd and the results Wfi'c alnait tlit> sanii> iim
1
istn
ol
jc«-t
ta
nt'd
l'l>aiirc, it W.i^ Ih-Ii '\im| th.tt o l'i';,'tllatio|i i-nilld
tlif |ii'i'\i-nt io'i lit' lii|iiiii' st'llin;.' tn In lians. I
in .Aiiijtist, IS7U, |M»sst'SNiiin ut' the coimtiy, ih
b.'f.
Tin- si'fiind ol' the ini-asin'*-s which I li:i\c nicntioiii'd, \i/..: I'roliiliitiM' .\«'ts of
till- tii'st Coinii-il t'lifthi' Nnilh west.
thf Noftli wot Miiinitt'd Poli('i',aiidtlii-la\\ IrssiK
I'lc s|i<-i'dily |iiit intii cxiTiilinn liy an aiiiit'd fofci
rss, \ loieiict', (ii-iinK<'iiii('ss and
del
)aiicniTV
consriiiifnl iiiHin
tile I'onditions wliich tlicn oUtanicd in soinc |i.ii'ts ot' thf Noftiiwi'st wi>i'i>
innni'dialcly ii'jiifsscd, and I'oi- tin- lirsl time sinci> lii|iioi iiad lirsi i-eai-hi d tin- l'ii';;ans. llir
IiIoimIs. lihu'kt'iTt and pait of ihi- ('riTs, tin-ii' cutinliv could l>c ti'.ix cfscd iii safely.
I
nilcclloii
the exieiisjiin of mission ellnit was L;i\cn and the \n a v made clear for
t re.il les w 1
th fi
dal
oi'iindaitle aiKl wt
-II
li'ilx
dm I
ia\e iH'Ver since
l)rok
en llieir I le.'ity
sti|iiilalions, the Intliaiis receiving' foi their rolM- and furs siili>tantial \ahie instead of
til" liijiior, which was iM'fore the |irinci|ial article of trade. Withotit the prohiliilions
tiii-n adiipted and enforced, it smuiIiI lia\e i)cen dilliciiit to tre:it with, and |iractic;i||y
ini|Missi
l>le t.
ivcrn the trih
ihich I it (VI- nientiniicd. It aided aUu the setlleinent
if tl
le cmintfy ; wealthy parents n
f di
Ited
soii^ saw in it. the ineaiis of refuiin ani
pros|«'iity, and money was freely pro\ idcd to such settlers liy tho e interoted in their
welfare, diiriii;; the periiKJ when prohiiiition ohtuined, and it was dmilitless the saKatimi
(if manv olhi-rs liesides those who came under my own notice.
I'.issin^ nil to the proliiliiti\e incastiie emlioijied in tin- I'nlilic Wniks .\ct ; I h.nc
implc ii|ipiii'ttinity in tlii- pro\ in In linu' early ailway construction, of jinlnini; o:
had
f
its ellects, and e-|ii-cially as I had oppnrt iiiiil ie. nf ciimpaiini; tin- cnndilions w liicli
ohtained on oiir railway construction with tlmsc ti|ioii the Northern I'acitic and
It her Mini
lesi I
ta railway
ines. On the
oust met lor
of till- I'einliina liranch of th
Canadian I'acitic Hailway and on tin- e.isli-rn seciion of the ( 'aii:iili.iii I'.uilic Mailw.'iv,
iie.ircst to Winnipe,'. the cl iiises nf the I'nlilic Works .Vet W'li- ii;,'idly enl'mci'd, while
on the const riicl ion of the American lines nientioned rnlil»-iy, miirder, dchaiicheiy and
drtmki'iiness kept pice with the ^jradiin; and was mcre^ised with the tiiiok layin<; of
tlie>c lines. I haye no hesitation in st.ilini; my lielief that railway const nicl ion in
Manitolia has Ih-ch nnmarred liy a siiiLfle crime of a serious nature, and tlial this i>, du<-
to the fact that in this cas,- pmhihit ioi did inohihit. .\uil while I am spc.ikiiii,' of
railroads, I desiretostitetli.it I hue ijond icasnn fm lielii-v
in<
that th)
ik.'dih
immunity of tho Canadian Pacific Hallway frnin ciillisinii and wre. k is as niiidi dm- to
the rule nf that (^lm|lany nnt tn emplny in any cn-acity. when- the liyes nf passe n^-ers
are endaiiu'ered, any in.in who is known to drink while on duty, as it is to iinsleepini^
w.itihfiilness of th;it (Jonipany on the liridi;es, ctilverts .md dani.'erotis p.irts of their
iiiailway, ami on their motist- power.
In s|>eakin;; of the practical results of the prohihitive Act whii-h relates to the
histrictof Keewatin, I <lesire to say that I have lieen niaterially aidt>d in the attainment
of these I IV the commissioned olliccrs of the lliidsnn l>,iy Company, liy the missiimarie.H
ill tin- Di'-.trict. liy the justice nf t In- pi-aci- an I liy .1 cnmniissinni-d nlllcer and ti\e cmis-
lalilesof the Norllivvcst .Mounted I'olicc who have undertaken the duty of a watei patrol
nil one of the most ex|M>s)>d parts of the di trict. and t at this ,1 id has made prohiiiition pro
liiliit : ami the dire<-t results are that in four years no i-riim- has In en committed, and no
,'ieater coiuparatiye iidyanci
has lieen made in the woik nf ,inv mission district anvwher««
in the Northwest. I ap]>eiid for your infnrmation the form ni' |ieiinit used, twn <;allnns
to line person t'or medicinal purposes only I'cins; allowed for one yi-ar, the application
t'lr which has to Ix- recommended l»y a justice of the jieace, a missionary, or the he.ifl nf
tile Indian Department of th(> llud.soii I^av Company here. Exceptions are only iiiiul«>
in the case of sacrainental wim*.
With respect to socti<ui 4 of your in.st ructions, I lielieve the vott- cast in fayour of
pinliiliitioii at the recent general election in thi.s province to have been the expression of
161
{1— 11**
tl! P
■I'll
1 1
i
M
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
tlic iiuitur*>il riiiivirtiiiii <if iiiir |iru|i|i- u|Miii a siilij)-i-t wliicli Iuih In-«-ii ••ii;^i^iiif( tlicir
tlioiij^hlt'ui ult<'iiti)iii t'lit' inikiiy yfiirn. and iiiiist, I lliink, Im- it<-cf|it<il uh tlifir liiiiil <l«H-i
Niitn. In ^iviriK it, I think our |m'<i|i|i> liif «-<)nviii<-c<l tlwil imtliiliiliun In, iiftt-i' itll, tint
uhly i'iuli(!ul fiii'r fur tin- *'vils whirli Itwal opt inn itnd tli<- I'lifnt-Mt cD'ortH iiuliviiiimlly, in
pi'ivittf ami in lln' |iul|iit as wi-il as liaiidfil in siK'ii-tifH, wliirli t<>in|N>i-uiui> WdrktTs luivc
niadf to clicck or Icnscn tin- fviU caiist-d liy intoxicanlH.
Till' fll'iTl of sui'li a nicasiin' as has Ih-cii asked for in ihf rtMfnl |ilfl>iNi-it«>, would,
in my opinion, iN'ni'lit our MK-iai condition and uur industrial ami nminifn'ial inUM't'sts.
I do hot think that th<' T-t'vcnui-s of hui'Ii rural iniinicipalitics as I am familiar with
Would lir injui'i-d liy such a law, and whili- in the casf of cities and towns the re>enue
wouhl Im- decreased to the e.vteni of the auiounts collected for liceiiws, yet I am of the
opinion tiial this uould \h- more than count erlwiianeed hy the saving; in jxilice, lire anil
other costs of pnit<>ction to life and |>ro|M>rty. As to the |M)HMihilily of enfoicinf; a
|)roliiliiti\<> law, I aui of the opinion that such a law can 1h- enforceil, and in fa<-t it
Would Ih- insult in^' to the well known law ahidin^ spirit of the |M>op|e of this province to
suppose that infrat'lions of it woidd come from within : and in endeavourin;; to estimate
the chanci-s of infraction from without, I have arrived at the conclusion that, considered
from a ;;eo;rrapliical |Hiint of view, no province of the i>ouiinion is so well situat<*il for
the enfoi-cement of |iroliiliit i\'e measurcN. 'rwo-thirdsof our frontier on thes<iuth IhhiIci-s
u|>on a state which has adopted prohibition. On the east we have oidy one avenue for
the intitKluction of litpmrs, a railway connniniication (the Canadian Pacific Uailway),
easily controlled : on the noi'th a prohiliitive district and on the west Territories which
are not likely for years yet, to Im- a source of <lanp-r in this res|M'ct. The weak jiart
would Im> that portion of our frontier on the south which joins on the State of Minnesota ;
yet it will '!(' remenilM-red that a Mounted Police force patrols alonj; the lNiun<lai-y line,
and even if this vvre not so, the fact of the condition which would free licpioi- from
Internal Kevenue Tax of the I'nited States for trans|Hirt across the iMtundary neces-
sitates, I iN'lieve, a certiticate of its im|Mirt, from a <fovei-nment otiicial.
Thei-e 'cniains only the possiliility of infraction of the law liy illicit stills on this
and on the other side of the line, and the snni;;;;lin^ of liipiors on which the (United
States revenue tax has heen paid. < Mn- pi'ovince is tiH> o|M'n for the succ«'ssful secretion
of such stills on our side, and it must 1h- rememhered that the punishment for the owner
of sui^h still on the rnit«'d States sid<' is as ;;reat as on ours, and the ownei- would rmi
the risk of the infraction of the law of his own country and of this. Kimilly, re<;ardin|{
the smu;;;;lin^ of ordinary liipior from the l'nite<l States, it must l><> rememhered that
the price of such is larj^ely in e^-'-s, of the present jirices here, and therefore t here would
1m' less inducement. And on the other hand, while more profit could Iw had now in
smu^^^lin^ Manitoha liipior into l>akot4i, I have rea.son U) U'lieve that, thou ;;h their
frontier is far removed from their .seat of < o>verinn<>nt, the meiiHUres adopted hy them
have In-en (piite sutlieient to keep Manitolia litpior out.
In <lealinK with section No. 'i i.; your impiiry. T will al.so include any oltservations
I have to nuike repirdin<( No. I, aiui I shall pass liy the statistics of im|Mirts and con-
Numption of spirituous li<|Uor, as you will have had tlies«> fnim authoritative otiicial
sources. I have alluded to the iMMieKt to the Indians accruing fitim prohiliition meii.sures
in the north ami north-west, and I de.sin' to luld a few wonls rejfardin;^ the Jndians of
Manit<il)ii, vi/.: that as l<in<; as li(pior is .told at all in ManiUiha, the Indians of this
province will j^et it. C/ivilized or.sava;;e. Christian or heathen, it is all the same ; there
is that in his Mon;;olian IiIimhI which cannot n'sist tempt'iition, and notliin<;will save the
abori^'iiuil jiortion of our pr<ivineial |Mipulation hut prohiliition. Tlie.se condition.s, less
accentuated, are also pi't^sent in other {Mirtions <if our |Mipulation, aiul althou;;h the
advent of a larger pro|H>rtion than fonnerly of married people with families, and the
increaHe<l enerj^y of tein|K'rance and Church workers has decreiuwMl the o|M»n use of
li(|Uors, yet sttitistics show that there i.s Htill a va-st provincial ex|i«>nditure for intoxioatini;
dritftH which, even if the practice was harinlesN, is not justifie*! in a new pnjvince, which
p«i88e8seH no weultliy leisure cla.ss, wlwre every one is a worker, and the avera){e «»f our
jieople much younjjer than in the older provinces.
Ho.v. .loiiN SCIIULTZ.
162
67 Victoria.
Sessional Piipers (No. 21.)
A. 1«94
It in <>ft«'ii assorted lliikt I In- list' (if lii|iiiir in iiccuHMurv with mmmi wini liiivc tu iiiiilcrpt
iiniiNUiil iiikI Iiiii^ i-<iiilinutMl fat i^iii-, iinilfr i-it'ciiiiiMtiiii<'<<s wliicli cuuhv cxiMisiin* to w*'t
uikI cold, tiiitl it Idim iH-ciirrcil tu iiic Ut citr in rcfiit-iil <>f (his liKSfrtinn, tlif tlu'cf iiiilitui'y
I'XiM-diiiiiiis to tliis fiiimtiT. 'I'lif lii'st of iIichc wh.s in IS |ti, wlicn MX) int-n of the tith
Koyul Inftinlrv, with it snmil ilftui-hnit-nt of the Koytil Ai'tilliM-y iirid Sii|>|it>rH and Miners
wi'r«' «»'nt to Iti'd Uivci' ScttlcnH'Mt hy way of ^'o^k l''a<iory and had to ti'an.s|Mirl ovor
thi' many sli|i|M'i-v, and often over i'oukIi and miry jMirtap-s whicli intervene iM-tween
l>ake \Viuni|H>^ and the sea, a ntinilM-r of six and three |Miunder liras.s ^'tins, mortars, sliot
and shell, and immense ijuantities of military stores, without any hut the usual rations
iM'iii;; Ki-rxed out. 'I'lie next Pensioners of the Itoyai Canadian iJitles came o\-er the
same route in \MS. and more recently the U'tter known expedition of l^ord (then
Colonel) Wolsely with a Caiuidian anil British expeditionary force, which nuule them-
selves and their comnuinder famous for the physical ohstacles which they ovei'came, had
simply a doulile ration of tea and not one drop of spirituous liipior. The ollicial report
of the ;;reat commander ascriJM-s the healtii of his men and the s| d of the expedition
partly to that fact. Mis enforcin;; prohiliition anion;; tr<Hips who were doin;; the
hanlest |>o.ssil)le Work, and Wet for days t<i;;ether, as a means of success in the rapid
transit of Ids men and st^n-es to the scene of action and his laiidin;{ in Manitolia without
the loss of a man, is refutation from a very lii^li source, of theasst>rtion to which I have
rtft'ired.
I am, giMitlemen, lespeotfuilv yours,
JOHN SCHULTZ.
WiNNiPKii, 27th Ootoher, 1S92.
h '!
I
The CoiiiinisHiuii adjouruiHl, to niet't in braiidon,
1^'
!' il
21— llj**
163
I '
Liquor TralTlc — Manitoltti.
llMANlxiN, n,iMl«i Jittli. 1892.
TIm' Hoyal CoiiiinisHidii on tin- Lii|Uiii' 'riiitlic iidI Imii' i|ii-< ilav.
Phkhknt :
JriNiK MrlUiNALO. ItKv. |)i(. MiLkoii.
.JiiM.K .M<|i<»NAU». ill ii|>«-iiiii;; the |)r(KM'(«liii;;s, Maid 1 1 ml a> tin- Koviil Cdiii-
iiiisMidii hail Ufii n-iul in \Viiiiii|M'^, t\w ii'iuliiiu iiii;;lil lie (liH|MMisfil witli licif, anil the
Coiniiiissioiifis wiiiilil at <in<'<' ih'iktihI to iliNchar;;i> ihr liusiiii^ss, thi- usual riili- iN-iii^ fol-
Idwcii of calling oltii'ials as tlii> first w itiifssi's.
JollN r.\MIM»KN To!U>. VnVu-,- MiiKiHtrati- of P.m.iilon, on U-in^' duly Hwuni,
iIi'JhisinI as tuilows :
Jii/ ,/iit/t/f Mi-lhiiiiilil •
.'{.'UM2. How Ion;; have you liMii in I'l'aiidon f AIhuiI II vi*ars.
.^■{1 ■*<."l. Mow loiij; lia\»' you Ikm-ii I'oiirc Ma^iistiatc .' I liaM' Im-cm I'olii-i' Ma;;istmt<*,
I lliiiik, liM- yt-ar- ; I liavf Ix-cn a .liisticc ot" the I'i'acc licrr i'ii,'lit vcars.
."{IHNI. I 'id you foinc Ikti' t'loiii one ot' tlit- ollirr |Hd\iiu'osN I faiiii- tiom ( hitario,
ori^riiially. I c-anie iliri'ct t'loiii San FraiiciM'ti to liiiiiidon. ! \vi>iit troin Toronto to
San Francisco and troiii San Francisi-o iicri'. I \«as t'onncrly of 'roroiito. Ontario.
.'t.'i I >'•"). Ihirinir tin- time you lia\c Imtii in lliis couiiti v, liaM- \ou notii cd any clian;;e
in the social custom- of tin- |'co|ilc in i fi;anl to tlic lie of inloxicatiiij.' li(|uors .' i your
opinion, is less of -iicli liijuors us«mI tlian I'orincrly '. I do not think tlicrc lias Im'< , n ucli
clian;;)- diirini.' that |>i-ri<id, at least it lias not coiai' to my notice. In early years tlieio
wa.s a jLfi'eat "|uantity of lii|Uor drunk |uoiiiiseiiously that i^ not drunk now. The prac-
tice in this res|H'ct is s^iinewhat dill'erent to what it was formerly, liut at the same time,
I think, I .'iiii -afe in saying that there is aliout as much lii|Uor lieinj,' used now lus then,
if not more.
:{.'U>'<>. I'oyou mean pro|Mirtionately .' Yes.
.■13187. What is your jurisdiction? \!y jurisdicl inn is the Piii\ ince of ManitolHU
3;Jl8S. I mean what is your juri diction in leji.uil to the cases that come iM-fore
you ? — 1 adjudicat*- on .-ill cises that come up in the poiici' couit. every kind of ollence,
such as drunkenness, disorderly condin-t, in fact e\ei ytliin;;.
.■{."US'.*. Itreaches of the city hylaws and ordinani-e>, I siippo-e .' ^■es.
."t.'UlXJ. I)o vou take preliininarv hearing; in cases sent for trial to other courtH?
— Ye.s.
.'{.'{191. How do you fin<l iii-andon in re;,'ard toc-iiine: do you lind it to he a well
condiicteil place { — Yes, f think it is. I think the people of Itrandon are law ahiding
citizens.
33192. Have you many ca-ses of drunkenne.ss heioie the jiolice court? — I sup|)ose
the ca.ses of drunkennes.s in the jMtlici' court would a.er.ii;e ahout fifteen per month : I
do not think more than that numlx'r.
3;!I9 I. Have you many cjuses of hreuches of the licen e law in the I'loviiice? — Yes,
«|uite a few of them.
33194. Of what nature are are they? — Both for selling; after hourH and during pro-
hihitefl hours, and sellinj; without a licen.so.
JoiiN Campuen Todd.
1H4
67 Victoria.
St^ssiormi Pajiors f\o. 21.)
A. 1894
Ml
l«- M
.'l.'ll'.l'i. Clin voii ni\r till' ( 'otiiiiiiHNiiiii iiiiv iili'u nt' till' iiiiiiiImm' of iMMi-s of ilii(;it
Hi' Wiilll I riiiiH'
U-t
>>rr Voll III II Vl'Ill'
N..I t'
I'lilll llli'llliiI'V.
■I.'tl '.*t°i, ||j(\f Mill nil |iti\ati- i-)Tiiii| tliat xmhiIiI sIiuns tiir iiiiiiiIh-i '. Nh.
•(•<lt)7. I'oyiiii tinil in i°i't;anl to illii-il salcN tliiit tlii' tiitiir |iiii'lii'.s an- iM't'uii' tin'
fiitirt ii);ikin iiinl ii'.'ain '. Vrvy l°ii'i|iii-ntlv.
.'Kill''*. Alt' tin- xiuiif |n'iNiin-. Im'Ioi-i' tin- riuiri t'i'iM|Ufntlv tor lii'i-iirlii's of (In- lici>nxi>
liiw as I'l'nniil-" ^I'ilmi; (liinni; |iiiiliiliiti'i| li<iiir>< .' N'l".,
.'I.'U'.I'.I. I >•■ yuii aj-ii liiiij in i'a-<i-s lit' |iai'tii's lirnii'^lit iH't'nir tin* rmirt tur ilriinki'ii-
lii'ss tliiit Villi iia\r till- Haiiii- iii(|i\ iililal*. Iii-t'nti' ymi l'i'|H>atiM||y 'I'lii'i-i' iirc riuii's nf that
kiiiil. Iiiit still nut a i;rcat iiiaiiv.
nil*' in mil' cuiirt tlic nia|iiritv ai'c i
i;<l.'t)(( Afi' tlii'V fi'sicli'iits iir |MMi|i|c \« liiiriiini' intii till' tii\\ II mi liiiHin
ll'W Cllsl'H.
I slimiM
Mav tliat mil' lliinl wcit- H">ii|i-iit> ami anotliiT tliini i'iiiii|iuM'ii i>l' tin- lluatiiii.' )>ii|iiilatii
I iiiakr it a ii'.lf in tin
.li
iiii't that \^ III
|>aiti>
iiiii' ii|i \i'iv tri'i|iii'nt ly in ini|HiH(>
sii Hi-MM'i* a |iiinisliiiiiMit that it will |irii\i' a li'ssun In thi'iii.
:t:l:.'(l|. |>ii y<iu liml it ha^ a u'imnI i-tli'i't '. I think it hax.
.'i.'il'O'J. Taking' till- <-as<> ot' tlir man who I'tiini'H ii|i |-i-|H>ati-ill\, lii> litV is alinoHi \
a |ii' ssimi tVoin tin' saJiNin (■• tin- jail aii<l tVoiii tin* jail tu tlir saliiun. Is it aii\isalil(>
1)1 t'i'i'<|iiriit ly iniini-iin him, m- wmilil it Im' In'tti'i' tu rominit liiin tnr a lun^'i'i' tiiiii' to
some institution whrii- In- mi^ilit |w)s>ili|y ri't'iiini, or at all rvriils Im' krpi a|iart tfoni tli<
i-fst ot' till' |>ulili<' .' That is a ijillii-ult i|iifsti<iii to aiiswri'. I lio not think tlia' |i«>
im|Misitioii of tiiii-s rtiluo's ilniiikfiiiii'ss, Im>i'iius<< h mini who is aiiilictfil to li'|u<.; will
liaNc it no mattiT what tin- r. >nsiM|ii)-iii
iiiKlt'i' out' law ■
I
cannot llii|i|'|smi a
Im'. So far as in)|>risonini'nt is coiki'I'iii-iI,
In-ii till' liiir is |iaiil. As a riilr llif tiiif i-
|>ai<l : if till- party caniiiit |>a\ it hinisi'it. lir will lia\<' some frit'iid who \\ ill pay it i'orliiin.
So as a I'lili- tin- fine is paid, • vij i liasc had vi-ry fi-w casi's. rtt all I'M-nts until •|int4«
ii'i'ciitly, wlii'ti |Mirti«'s liavf i<«-«'n iiiipiisoni-d iH'i-aiisi- tlii'ir lini's liavf not In-i'ii paid,
'i'liis siimnifi' tlii'i't- has Im'i'ii i|iiit<' a Itoatin;; population in tlir city on account of tin-
jHililic works ;.'oin;.' on. which havi- Im-cii the means of luin^'in^' in a <.'rcal maiiv i"U;.'h
characters, and within tlie last two wts-ks I ha\e had <
for lion payment of tine-..
iccasion to cmninil several parties
:\:\20:
!>•
M'S VOUI
reeiillectioii of Toronto ''<> liiick to the time when the not
orimiH
character, Harry Henry, whose terms of iniprisonineiit ran up to hundreds, w as alixe f -
No, I was oiilv liviiij.' in Toronto for a few veai's ; I came oriifinallv from the ("ouiitv of
Peel.
.■(."(I'O.'t. |)o you think imprisuiiinent in such cases works any reformation.' No, I
do not think it dm-s. I liHik ii|Mtii imprisonment in this way: when persons are im-
prisoned it hardens them : they Im-coiiii' callous and inditlerent, and they would as soon
lie sent to jail as not.
.■{.'I'JO I. Taking the cases of crime iii\esti;;aled iM-fore ymi and sent to other coui-ts
for trial, do vmi tiiid anv larye iK-rceiita
lie to the excessiM' use ot intoxicating'
iii|iiors ! - I mi^ilit say that I liave found it to Ih' the eiwe.
.'$;<;.'()"). Kroin yoiir ex|H'rience in liearinu eases "f ln'cach of the license law, can
you make any suggestions to Her .Majesty >( 'uinniissioners which they iniLrht report to
Parliament, that would tend to improxc tlic law f The only sii!.';fi'si ion that I can
possiliiy make, if it can
Im' d
one. Will
Id Ik
pure |irohiiiii ion
;?.'{:!U(i. 1 itiii speakiii); generally and with s|>ecial reference to the license law which
\oii have in foi-ce. Can voti suir^est aiiv ainendinent to that law f I do not know that
can ilo so
I
:{:{-.'07. I
lie made? '1
lessen drinkii
durin.i; the A
!•"• cents a ^I
then as then
Do
VI
1
III think
'h.
ceiisi
' fe
'«.
it
fact.
I d
ine
ri<
an ri
liell
iss
ai
IS
id l>r
whei
iiid^
w
liiji
the I;
iw in itN present form is as pci-feci a license law as can
d K
inci
o nut think it woiili
ion. W'liiskv
d, liiit it is a i|iie>tioii wlietl er that would
Id.
Take, fur insian
th
peril
<1
Was su
VMl
Id mi the other side uf the line for L'." oi-
y fur .""itt cents a j;lass. and yet there was asinucli liipiui'drank
ee was increased I he sellers
ii'i, tlie
iliirsoldat 10 cents. If the license f
iild lia\e to increase the price ot' drinks, and I du nut think that wuuld
if li
ii|uur.
.'i.'ll'OS. Wuuld it diminish the nunilier of license!
d pi
plan
Tli(
■re is a i|Uestion
ilioiit that, and I doulit wlietiiei- it would have any etl'ect either w'tiy. If a jM'rson wants
165
■1 '!*~
■B
Liquor Traflfic — Manitoba.
to <li'iiik, he will <l<) su. If hi' t-animt <;)>t li<|U(ir in tin ordinary nmnlx-i' of iilaccM, anil if
till' tradf is |•l•^tl•i^tl•ll by liiyli lii-'-nsi- tVi-M, tlii' i-tli-rt will Im- to ili-i\e tlii' tmilc to tliosi*
who paiil thi'si' hi;{h lici'usfs. I i|ui-stion very nnu-h il' that would ri'diifi' di'inking.
;<.»L'U!». Would it not ledui-i' the ti'Uii)tatioii ? J think not.
•'i-'il'lU. HaM- you men in your i'ni|ilo\-nii'nt who find it ditlii'ult to resist the temp-
tation to drink / Suppose a man trayels thirty miles in the eountry on business and has.
inly ti
ne taxerti, is not the temptation to drinlv less than if he had to pass liye
th
ta\erns ') Tliat mijiht Iw true if the proposition was to reduce the numl)er to that
extent.
.'l.'i'_M 1. The pro|iusition 1 sulimitted to you was whether the reduction of the num-
ber of j daces would lessen the evils that result from driiikin;; and from the ti-at!ie? — I
have heard that ijuestion ar+,'ueil a j;reat many times, Ixttli in tin,'- country and in the
I'nited States, and it seems to bi' the p'n<'ral opinion that people who are in the habit
of drinkin;; will ;;et liipior. even if they lia\r to i.;o miles to i;et it.
•'fl'Jll.'. Kroiii the slatein'-nt you have made I ^father that, in your opinion, |irohibi-
tion is the only measure iliat would reduce drinkin;; '! I think so.
.'i;{LM;5. Do you think such a meiusure could be .so eH'ectualiy worked as to do away
with intoxicatinji; liipior '( — It iiii<;ht be eH'ectualiy worked, but it would be hard tf)do.so.
■■{■■<"J I I. What dilliculties would you a](prehend ? I woidd apprehend ditlieullies in
In case of projiibition, ' luor would be snuii,'j;led, and it woidd reach i'ami-
] had .1 I'a.se before me a day or two a;,'o of a party whi>
many ua\>
lies
that do not have it n
was summoned for .sellini; liipior without licen.se. There was nothiiijL; before me to show
that he had done .so. }[e sold liipior of siinu> kind that he claimed was a iiatiM' wine,
but I do not think th
as any doubt that the native wine was adidterated or mixed
with other liipior, althoUffh there was nothinj,' before the court to show it. l)urin;,' the
examination of the jiarty, I found tliat there was a room in his building where thi-re
were glasses on the table ami bottles of ;;in. Tom, Dick and Harry could i,'o there and
drink what they pleased. That appeared Iwfore me in evidence.
•'(■"^I'l"). Was that within the city ? -No ; it was in a rural tlistrict. Hf coursethere
nothing; to show that the pro|)rietor or owner of the building; was connected witliit.
sui,'i;est ion was made that it was brouj^ht in by some outside party, that he wa
Th
treating; th
iMiys
at way. That is on<! example of smuf,'f;ling, and as I have
said before, in the ciise of a prohibitory law beinj; jiassed, there is no iiuestion at all but
that it VMiidil increase the desire for that kind of thiii''.
•i.'t'J 1 (). Have you had any experience of a jiro
hibit<
intrv ? — No.
•'(.■{iM?. Ha\e you considered this (picstion. whether in case of the enactment of a
prohibilory law and the smufjjiliiiff of liipior, there would be temptation to substitute
adulterated compounds, which are cheap and liery ? — No, I do not think so. 1 think
that pure liipior and comparatively ]iure liipior is brought in and adulterated after it
reaches the con
dult
iration
taki
iitry. adulterated in th
es plact
itiv itself, for that
;t'_MS. .\ sui'''estion has been made to the ('oinmission, that
I beli
to thi
the
seizure
of whisky that occa-sionally lakes |)lace, dealers will run no risk, and therefore buy
cheap compounds, so that in ca.se of seizure their losses are not so j,'reat ? I do not
thinl'
At all I'MMits, that is a i
lew 11
lea to me, and I never heiird of it befori-.
be
■.V.V2\'.K You think lli
d
dulteration taki
I'
tl
le cou
ntrvl I think
yoiid (|uestioii.
:!:tL'L'0. |Fa\e V.
d any experience as to the mode of adultei'atinj; liipiors .' Nc
•i^t'Jl'l. J las any evidence been submittefl before v
ou 111 any case
?-Ni
.'il'l'L*. In case of the enforceiiieiit of a prohibitory law, would you favour the
liivintiii!,' ot coiii|iensutioii lo lire
■rs and distillers for i!i
laiit .' If those men went
to larn'e expense and the law ]>rotecteil tiiem in carryinif on their business as it seems to
have done, it would hardly be I'easonable, rijfht or proper to cut away their return and
earnini;s without makin>' reconipense i
I"
expense for their )ilaiit, and |iaid
their tiiiile, and they have th
in some way.
Th
ley have I'one to a very
iiioiiev
for 111
us coiiiiilieil w
ith tl
iiij; allowed the privilege ot carryinj; on
le law. a
lid it seems to me tliev should be
reconipeiiM'd in some way fo" their returns, which would 1k' taken away from them.
.(OIIX (.'.VMI'liKN ToDII
166
I
I
■lit nt' a
ihstituto
I tliink
iittiT it
l('\l' tlic
sci/uri'
toll' liuy
i (III nut
re.
OMI' till'
I'll went
SCI'IIIS til
ilin iliiil
ry I, 'Iff,'!'
i-yiiifi nil
0\iiulii ))(>
icm.
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'?.'J:i2.'i. Y<»\i s|>()kc of having' lived in Sun Fraiiciscii. Wlmt system of deiilinj; w itli
the liijiior tnirtie was in furco tliere? |)rink was sold in every plaee and e\<M'v wliei'e.
.'{.■{22>. Was there a license sj-steni in force .'- Yes, liii,'h license. At Minneapolis
and St. Paul the licensees pay from §1,000 to .»i!|,.")00 per license.
//(/ [{.,: Dr. MrLtod:
H;J"_'l'ri. How many licensed places ar(i tliere in Mraiidon / I think there are ei^lit
now.
think llu
."KJl'l't). IIav<' you reason to helieve that thei'e are many illicit |ii;ices ' I do i
lot
re are anv.
'I'l
ley are looked after pretty sharply.
lijf Jiuuje McDiinald .
'.V.Vl'l' . Thi'ii the illicit sale of which ymi ha\e spoken occmied uiiisiiic of the citv '
- Outside of the city entirely. The ipiestioii may come up further on, hut I niiirht
explain here that illicit sale that takes place 1 mean selling without a license takes
place, as a rule, in liou.ses of ill-fame.
By Her. Dr. McUod:
."i.'Sli'JS. Are there many houses of ill-fame in lirandon .' Three, ])eiha]is four.
33:>1>9. Do vou tind thev sell r
um
Tl
leie IS no (|Ucs
'tion ahiiut it.
.■{.'ii.'.'{0. Have vol! found that there is much illicit sale 1
)V llceiisef:
(III thev hii
.sale after houis and on Sundays .' \'es, a good deal. It is a very ditlicull thing, I lind,
to convict them for that ofl'ence.
.'<;5:2;51. What is the didiculty .' The dilViculty is simply this, that the witnes.ses or
a great many of them, heloiig to a class of jieople who want to shield the hotel kccjieis
as much as possihle, and for that reason it is veiy diiruull to gel correct answers from
them. T
o (juestions
as to whether thev were in that honsi' on such and such a (la\ at a
certain time, they are very ajit to re|ily that they do imt know, and that they cannot
remeinher.
■■t."{L*.iL'. These witnesses have icniarkahle lapses of nicmorx
.'5.'). I >o villi thid in ntlier cases wliii
I
il'l"
Thev ha\ t>.
le liefi ire Villi that the witnesses \\;\\r
more or less pi
airected!--No.
M'sonal interest in the results of the case and their memories an- similaiilv
;i.'$L','U. Then those had niemories seem to lie peculiar to liiiuorcasi
had anv trouhic ahoiit i;ett
I 1
i,i\e nexcr
iiig answers tnilii witnesses excejit in Mich casi
—Id.
.■(.'iL'.'i.'"). l)o you think the lii|iii>r tr.illic is lespons
hic for that londitiiiii of iiiciiinrv
XVl-.m. Are t
lere iiiaiiv cases licfore voil o
if sale .ifter III
Thev
wiiiiiii mil
average more than one a nioiith.
;!.'5l'.')7. .Might there not lie more cases if thev were not so ditliciilt to pni\e '. ^'es.
,'j.'!2;iS. I )o you think that kind of sale is i|iiite general ; I do.
.S;iL';{l). Is it your ohservation, then, that the licensees to any extent make cil'urts to
oliserve the prohihitory provisions of the license l;i\\, tlia\ is to oIiscim' the piov isimi-,
which sav that they shall not sell after critain lioiirs and on Siind;iv .' I think so, I
think the cases of se
ling attei liouis ;ii(' luiii'e pari iciilaiy
iiard III friends and
li.
egular custoiners, who want diink. am
|i
d rather than otreiid iheiii, thev xsil! uiM' them
I think that is where tl
le I iiiulile arisi
1
it think that ilie lnilcl keepi'r-
t!ie!av\, lillt ■■( the ^;l lilli.' llleV do not
and tiie liceii.sees have any desire to In
wish to otiend their cu>tomers.
."Kil'IO. In addition to the case^ of driinkei.iiess which imne liefoie ymi, are there
many cases for other oU'ences tried liefoie yiur i oiiit for |ielly lliefls. disuiderly coiiiliict
and so forth I A great iiiaiiy.
.■?.'{2H. l)o vou tind anv pro|i(irtioii of the ]ietty thefts and disorderly coiiduel cases
or of vagriincv are attrihiitahle to the di'ink trade and to the drink liahit ! Yes, \
think .so.
;{3'_'r_'. Is it a large proportion or a small one .' I should say pnliaps inie-half.
.■532J.'?. Have you many juvenile cases coming liefore yim .' \'erv few cases indei-d.
.'Cil'll. Tliei the liovs ai'C prellv well lielia\ed here? ^'es.
167
I'
li
fi.
Liquor Traffic — ^IVfanitoba.
33245. Hiivc you obscfvcd whether the ih-ink tiwle or its t'stablishniPiit affects
otlier Inisinesscs, iiiul if so. wiicthcr it alfi'cts tliem injuriously tir Iwiiefifijiily ? - Tt is a/
veiy (litlifuit <|uestioii t4> iiiiswur. In s(»n if cases it would lu'l|i luui in other cases it
would not.
33J4t). Help in wluit way? — What I mean to .sa}- is this, that it will help certain
businessmen and certain classes nt' trade. I have noticcMJ that parties who are addicted
more or less to drinkiui,' ;,'o and do their tradin;; or a f^ood dt^al of it witii shoj)keepers
who are (if tht^ same class as themselves.
33247. You mean drinking men .' —Yes ; 1 have noticed that in many instances.
33lMH. Taking; husincs, as a whole, (Jo you think the Imsiness of th(! ciiuinuinity is
afT'eeted Iteneticiaily l)y the existence of the drink trade in the eomniunit}' f — 1 do not
think so.
33249. There are eij^ht licensed ])lact>s in lirandon, which jierhaps will gather in
durini; the year at a low estimate 8r"),00l) .' T presume so.
332")U. How man}' peo|)le ai'e thtM-e in lirandon ? o.OUO, I think now.
33251. Do you believe that it w(ail(l be benelicial to the community if this 875.000,
instead of guinj^ into tlie bai'-rooms, were distributed in other channels of trade ? I think
the money would (Id \cry much more ■^(mkI.
33252. I believt^ thercf was a plebiscite I'ccently in this province on the pi'ohibition
(juestion. |)o j'ovi reinendx-r whether Brandon V(»ted strongly one way <u' the otiier on
that ([Uestion i — It did. J think, if I remendier currectly, al)out two-thirds of its vote was
for iirohibition.
33253. Do you understand that, acconling to the opinion of the people of Brandon,
it would be a good thing to have a prohil)itory law? F think so.
33251. I think you have already said that there would be dilliculties att(>nding the
enftu'cement of a general prohibitory law. Do you believe, in spite of thos<^ dilliculties,
such a law would be po>siblt! of enforcement ? — No ; I do not think that any prohibitory
law can be enfoirod, that i.s, so ,as to l)e al)le to keep li(pior entirely (tut. 1 do not l^elieve
that it is possible to do it.
33254ff. Do you think that if pi-ohibition failed to keep li(iuor out entirely, it would
lie a useless measure ; or do you think that if it kept it out in a large (h^gree, it would
be a benefit / There is no (piestion in my mind but that if the li(|Uor ti-atlic was pro-
hibited or li(|Uor was kept out, it would be a gi'cat benefit to a gi-eat many people.
33255. There is not a law I believe -or if tiiere is vou will stat(> it perha|>s which
is absolutely (Miforced. Every law witii which you have to deal in your court is violated
more or less, I supjiose ? Certainly.
3325(1. Yet y(ai believe those law.s to be go(Kl, and enforce them so far as you ai'e
able to enforce them, and with ellect ? — Yes.
33257. Would the same thing be true of a prohibitory law, if it were enforced in a
g(MMl degree? —I think it would.
3325S. You regard the vote of the people on the plebis(!ite, taking the whole
province, as exiiressing the desire of tlu- people to have a prohibitory law t Yes.
3325i). 1 ask y(ai this (piestion lux'ause some witnesses have intimated that the
])eo|ile did not mean that at all ? — 1 will explain. I noticed at the time the (piestion
was before the people that it was not placed before them or explained to them as expli-
<'itly as it might have been. It seemed to be an otl'shoot of something that came in last
or at the tail end. or as something not worthy of much notice. I had occasion to observe
that. If the (piestion had been properh* explained to the peojile, I think the vote
would ha\(' been a dilVereiit one to what it was at the last general election here.
332t)(). Would it, have been against prohibition ? -That is the ipiestion. I happened
to be in one of the voting places at th(> time of the plebiscites for a couple of hours, and
I noticed that the prohibition ipu^stion came up at the very last moment. The voters
had east their ballots for members of the Legislature and this was taken up as a side issue.
1 noticed a great many ]>eople said. "Oh, I do not care about it ;" and started out.
There did not seem to be the time and consi(l(>ration given to it that should have been
given. I ol)s(>r\('d that.
332(11. Do you think that if the ps'ople had given nior(! attention to it, they would
have voted the other way? The (pi(»stion was asked individuals if they did not want to
John Campdkn Todd.
i-
57 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
vi)to, find the answer wiis fnM|ut>iitly ;{i%-«'n that tlu'V did n(.t want t<> have anytliin;; to
do with it. Then the men would start out. Of ckiiisj', that man's voto coiiutiMl for
nothin;; ; of course it was neither for nor a<;ainst.
332()1*. He did not vote! He would liave \oted aj^ainst ]>rohi)iitioii, and I noticed
a j(reat many jieople would liave done so.
.■{."520.'}. i)o you mean that many of the people who voted for it would have voted
n;rainst it ? — Xo.
.■{.■{L'(Ji. So the vote for it would not have lieen diminished, hut the vote against it
would ha%e increasefl { — Yes, (juite so.
J{i/ Jmli/p MvD()»ohi :
3.'52()."). You have s|Miken of the effect of other laws administei'ed in your coui't hy
you htnn;; well observed I Yes.
.'i.'iL'titi. Do you find in n^j^ard to the enforcement of all other laws there is a
difTerence of o|)inion in the community from that which prevails in rei;ard to this
matter? l>o you not find tliat this is a nuestion ditJ'eient from all other <|Uestionsf — ■
There is no douht whatever al)out tliat.
Jii/ R'v. Dr. McLeod :
.'l.32fi7. Do you tliink this is in any decree because tlie liipior t rathe, instead of
hein^f prohibited, has lu'en promoted and authorized, and therefore people have not the
same thou;j;ht and feelin<j; alM)Ut it ! For instance do you think that if the trade had
been prohil)ited for so many years as the ofl'ences have been prohibited to which you
have referred, the people would have iiad the same feeliuf^ about the trade now as they
have in rej;ard to thf)st other matters? — This beinj^'a newipiestion spruni; on the people
here and tiiis beinjLf a new country, it ajipears to inf, that it is ditlicult to answer that
<|uestion.
H . i
!il
i I
'I I
'm
JAMES KIRCALDY, of Brandon, Chief of Police, on beinir duly sworn, (h'posed
as follows : —
lii/ Judge MrDonold :
33268. How long liave you resided in Brandon ? — Fourteen months.
33269. Where did you reside before you came here ? — I had no particular place of
residence. I came liere from the old country. T was in tlie army and was moved from
one place to another.
33270. How long have you been Chief of Police ? -Since April, seven months.
33271. How do you find lirandon : is it an ordi'rly and well conducted city? It is
a very law-abiding place, as far as 1 have found it : compared with the places whei'e 1
have been — exceedingly so.
■33272. Taking the cases whii'h you have to deal with, do you find any large pro
portion are attributable to drunkenness? From .lanuarv 1st, I \\:\\v had before the
Police Court o-l cases for drunkenness.
.">327.3. Do you know how many otliei- cii-ses have lieen before the court? There
)iii\e been from January 1st to the present date, 117 oases before the Police Magistrate.
■?3274. < >f the balance of the I'ases over the .')-l for lirunkenness, w;isany pi'o|)ortion
to be attributed to drunkenness? Looking omt my routrh record 1 k I calculate that
■ iliout .31 other cases are so jittributable.
.3327."). Have you anj' duties to dischaige in connection with the enforcement of
the license law ?-- Yes, but that part of the work is niore looked after by the License
Inspector.
.3327<). T notices by the statute-book that you can take certain cases .'- Yes.
.'••3277. Hut you say that the work is principally done by an Inspector I — Yes.
33278. What is his name ? — James H. Foster.
169
I I: .1
i ■ 1^
I ill
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
33279. Ilavt' ydu livwl in a fountry wliere a proliibitorv law lias been in force?
—No.
332v*<0. Tiavellin;^ aUiut as a Britisli soldier, you have visited a nuniln'r of jdaeesall
over the world (- I'nfortunately, during; ei>^ht years' service, I never left the United
Kingdom, and I was oidy in Kn<;land, Scutland and Ireland.
.{3281. Then you came direct from tlie old country to .Manittilta / Yes.
3.S282. Taking; your e.\]ierience of the old country, did you find that inteni|)erance
was diminishing there or inereasiuf:; ? So far as 1 could judf^e, there did not seem to lie
any ditl'ercnce.hut it was just about the same. Of course, I have never been at any |)lace
in the Dominion »'.\cej)t Brandon, but I have found that drunkenness is less here than it
wa.s in the old country.
33283. Have you an\' su<i;^est ions you could otl'er, from your experience, as to
amendments to the license law .'-I do not think it would be advisable to increase the
license fees.
33284. (>!■ limit the number of places ( 1 do not know that that would pro<luce
Iteneht cither ; it mif^ht in the rural districts but not in the city, because if the liouses
were limited the j)eople would fH't li(|Uor in some otiier way.
ay Rev. Dr. MrLeod: •
33285. Have you found ditticulty with illicit sellers here i 1 have nevei- had a
.:ase ; the Inspectoi' lays for them pi-etty well.
follf
( )ntario.
JOHN McDIAHMri). M.D., Mayor of Brandon, <>ii beini; duly sworn, deposed as
ws ;
Hi/ Jiidijc Mrlhtnuhl :
332S(i. }|ow lonji have you resided in lirandon / ~.\lMiut ten years and a half.
3.3287. hid you come here fiom one of the other j)ro\inccs.' 1 came herefrom
pi-ese
3.(288. What part of Ontario? — From Klj;in County.
3.328".). How lonj; have you been Mayor of the city i<ii lirandon? ( Mily durinu tht»
nt year.
.3.3290. l)urin;;your residence here, ha\e you noticed any cliaiij,'c in the social cus-
toms of the people as rejfards the ue of intoxicatin<{ drink f — ^^'e lia\c had more
drunkenness this year, because our])ublic works are jfoini; on. and there are more pcoplt;
in the city, a yreatei- number of lalM)urini: men.
.33291. Take the city as a whole, is it ipiiel and orderly? It has been a \ei'y
•dorly city during my stay here.
.33292. Will it compare faxour'ably with cities in ( (ntario of tl
I'hich you are accpiainted '? I think it is ipiite as orderly.
or
le same size NMlh
th
.3.3293, Have you ever li\-eil in a country or a city where prohibition was in force?
-No, r have not.
.3.3291. Have von been liroui'ht into contact with the administration of th
e license
aw
.3.329."). Then you are lud in .a position to suj;;;est any anien<liiientK to tiie law as it
is at |)iesent ? No, I am iiol, unless we had liiiill li<'elise
3.329(1. Have you any reason to belicNc that adulterated li(|Uors are sold he
lave you
anv kliowled<'e of that fact
33297. Have you considered the (piestion of prohibition? -I ha\e considered it to
some extent.
33298-i)9. What is your opinion in reifard to it. formed upon your experience as a
physiciiin, as a public man and as a citi/.en ? — It mi^ilit be a <;oi«l tliint; if it t'oiild be
successfully carried out, but I have <;reat doubts about the practicability of the scheme.
.).\MKS KlUCAI.DV.
170
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■{.'1300. Wliy <ln yiiu )i|>jnfli('ii(l ditKcultii's in (•iniyiii;,' it out T -It is very diHitMlt
to leffislate |>('o|ilt' into tin- ri^'lit wiiy of living;. Altliouyli wi- shut tlicni up from
getting; li(|uor from one source of supply, tlicy will, if tlit'v arc so (li.sposi'<l, jjj-t it soiuc-
wlu'l't" t'lsi'.
.'{.'{.'iOI. Supposing; sui'li a law were fiiactcil. would you favoui' the ^raiitiii;; of
rouipt'usation to bi-cwt-rs aiiil (iistillci's foi' loss of plant '. -I tiiiiik thry should hi!
coni]>fnsat<'<l to a certain extent.
.'{.'{.■U)2. Speakiny; as a physirian, have you found the i-tiect of the use of litpior has
l}«'en injurious? -I think in many instances it has bi'en.
.■?.■{.'{().'{. Have you in any case found the use of liipior heneticial .'- It is a niattri- of
coiisidei-ahle douht in luy mind as to wliether I ever saved a patient hy it or not. I have
lU'vei' been (piit<! sure tiiat I have done so.
/ii/ Her. Dr. McLeod :
XV.M)\. I think I understood you to say that there mii.'ht J)e some henefit froni
hinh license I 1 think so, heeause it mif^iit in this way ;,'et l)elter men to conihicl the
husiiu'ss.
.■{.■(.■{()•">. Have you notice<l what the etrect of the business has l)een on men eni,'a]L(ed
in it '. .Most of them have become intemperate : of eourse, some lia\e not.
.■{.■{.■(()(■). |)o you think that if hi<ih license and a limited number of places prexailed,
the sale of liipioi- would be less .' I'ossibly a littli' less, l)iil I do not think mateiially so.
.'b'J.'lDT. Would the prices of liijuor lie |-aiseil in order to pay the hii;h lieeiise fee .'
— That would be very apt to follow.
3.'{.'<0S. You have sai<l that you do not think prohibition would Ik- practicable .' Ye:
;{.'{,'<t)l). What Would be the (lilHculties, other than the one von have mentioneil
that
It won
hi b
very dillicult to lej;rs!ate people nilo i
'ht 1
l\ nii;
hat I-
tl
le main t Inn;;.
I think there would be considerable erime connnitted in tryin;; to evade the law : I
think it would perhaps lead to crime in that direction.
;i:{:U(>. Do you think the crime committed in attemptinu; toi-vadc the law would
be ;.'rcater than criiiu' that is supjiosed to result from drink .' I am not in a position to
be able to speak on that ipiestion.
3;5.'il 1. That would be supposition, I suppose, as we
of jud^iin;; .' Yes.
a\e not yi't had .in o|>portuhity
■'t.'t.'i I :.'. Jlavini; made the stattMiicnt th.it it is dillicult to legislate men int
(I nu'lit
'ht t,(
I ask
1'
Voii this (lucstioii : it a man will dowiipiii;, do voii think it is vm
II and
,i<le fi
icillt les tor
that
w roil'' (loll
No; I Would not favour any eiicinir.ij.'e
iiieiit to do wronu;.
;i.'i.'!i;{. Do you think that if a prohiiiitory law were fairly
be productive of <;o(mI results? f tiiink certain ^iiKid would result.
'Iltolcec
1. it
3.'!.TN. Take I'randon, for instaiu
.\t tl
le reccn
t vote, I understand froii
I'olice M;i;.'istrate, that jiraiid
exiircssed tie" fccliiii; of all t!
on expressed a desire tm- projiiliition : ilo you
I the
think tiiat
inovince also
Yes ; 1 think I,
iplc or only apart I mean thioui;hoiit the whole
•re is a treneiid desire.
•Iltoll
.'i.'i!."!. If prohibition were enacteil in .Manitc
•ed .' In the face of the Mile, it
lia, ilo vol) I hii
it could be Wi
.1 b
/>'(/ Jiidiji' Mr/)i>ii<il(l .
•'l.'i;il(i. Have you considereil the <lcsir;diility of eiicoiira^'inu' the use of liKhl wines
and ales and tryiii;; to do away with the heavier lii|uors .' -No
■.\?,\
.tl
Do you not liiiiik that this i|uestioii of tlieIii|uor trathcis dill'cicnl from
iiiiid '. It is a dillicult ipiestion.
lers ill the pulilic ii
By liitr. Dr. Mrl.nxh
;t.'{:llf<. Do you as a professional m.-in, lomini,' into contact with the people,
that the feelin>; has lieeii i,'i'owinu' that the litiiior tr.ide is a iiiattel' for lej.;islation
liiK
think the feelii
Hi is becoiiiini' more iironoimced in that direction
iH.'il'.t. Sptiiikiiif,' about tiivinu compensation to brewers anil (list
illers or others who
have invested irionev in the business: do vou think tliev should all be comjieiisated
1'71
1 <
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
lliivc villi considered tliat ciiinpt'iisatiiiii inif;l>t yn fiirtlicr and iiicliidf jirrsmis wlm are
y i|iiirlcd l)y tlic lii|Ui)r trade / I luive nut enii-idered that iiiattef, but a i|Uestioii iiiii{ht
.11 <«•• there.
.■f;{."l2(). i)i> nut distilleiN and Wrewers and licensed vendurs and liutelkee|iers cairy
<i;i llieir r('.s|)ective Imsinesse.K t'riiin year to yeai' under aiitlmrity j,'iven tlieni by licenses,
wliicli e.xjiire at tlie end uf each year, wlu'ii their authority ends: and do nut these
|MM'si ins take the same risk with fitlier liusine-s ineii. and would yuii ^dve them eonsidi-ra-
tiun which yoii do not ;tive to other husiness men .' I jire-iime that althoiiixh tiie
licenses do expire in that way. the individual expects that, so lony as he conducts the
business properly, the license will be continued.
.■{'{.'521. Still he is a le<;ali/.eil distiller or brewer only fi'om year to year wiiilohe
iiold tile license .' 'I'liere is no i|Uestion of that.
.■{.'?."{l'2. I'y the tariH' clian<.'es that take place t're(|uently, certain branches of trade
are all'ected and some are pi';ictically de>.troyed; is it the duty of the (iovernment in
such cases to make coin]iensatioii / — No, I think not.
.'JJl.T'J.'!. Should tliis case be treated dillerently then J- Of »'ourse, the liijuor t ratho
is also iitlected by those chanj;os. There has been a steady increa.se in the duties on
certain classes of lii|uors.
.'i;{.'{24. Would you leave the matter of compenaition to the people ?- -Yen.
Bi/ Jadtfe McDonnJd :
'MV.Vlit. |)o you think it is a safe course to leave (|ue.stions that require f;reat con-
sideration to a jiopular vote, with X\w expense atteiidiiii; it '. .Vs a rule those c|uestions
are not so readily stuflitnl by a laru;e IkmIv as by a small number of persons, who can give
better judgment.
I{.'<.'52f). Speaking uf granting cunipen.sation to those engaged in the trallic : Did
you ever h«^ar of any public movement to make such compensationV? I do not know
of any.
.■<.'5327. Is it not a question that will have to be deali with at the jire.sent time and
a thing that runs side by side with propj-suls for jirohibition ? - Yes.
Jiy liiv. Dr. Mcb'od .
:?.'?.'V_'S, Tt is cont.'iuled that those who are connected with the liipior trallic should
1m coin|iensated. Have you ever thought that the ])eople who have suffered by the
tiade, and whu are now suffering, should be compen.sated '. No.
3332!). I suppose the claims would be like the Alabama case, there would \n- no
limit I— Yes.
GORDON BKLL, M.D., of Urandon, on being duly sAorn. de|)osed as follows : —
Ih) Jiidiji' McDonald :
:\'MV,\(). What official jiositiun do you hold ; I am .Medical Superintendent of the
Manitoba Ueformatory.
3.'{;?.31. How long liave you resided in Manitoba.' Five years.
.'t.'J.'i.'iL'. |)id you come here from one of the other provinces f -From Ontario.
3333.'$. Which jiart >. — From the County of Henfrew.
33331. Jlow long have you been Superintendent of the Asylum ? Since June last.
.3.3.(3."). And Suj)erintendent of the i{eforniatory I — Since the same date, 22nd June.
33.33(1. We w(>re told '. I Winnipeg that the Uefoi-matory ha<l no inmates .' There
is (me Imiv there.
.3.3.337. How many would the institution accommodate (It is the ..amo i)uil(ling as
the asylum and there are 34 inmates in the asylum.
.33338. Have you had any admissions in during the last few montlMi ? -Ye.s.
John lMcDi.\HMin.
172
67 Victoria.
tiessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{:t.'l.'<!l. I iiuti<-i><l t'lixn. til*- rftiiriis iiiiulc, I tliiiik to tlic (Mivi-i'iiiiiriit, at \Viiiiii))r^'
from May Isi, IS'.U. tu.limr 1st. IMfJ, tliat the total nmnlH-i ut' |>ati('iits unil)'r tr<-atiiiciit
in tlu' asyliiiii wa.s 17
aii<l lit' tliDM- °J I \srrt' inali-s aiiil 'J.'t t'l-niali
.S3H40. AikI only om- of tliosf liivl U't'ii drivfii tlifff l»y lunacy caused l>v diiiik '. —
Yt's, only oiH'.
;{:{."U1. Is tlijit a true stati'Uifht of thf fiic'ts ? — TIumt is aiiotliiT rase uf iiisanitv,
not i-aust><l )iy di'ink ; liut tin- |iatifiit will obtain liijUor and Ih-coum' viulmi. M<- caiinot
b«' allowed at laf;;e on that aceuuut.
.■i;$:il"_'. Are you able to «t ;te wlietlier as rei^ai'ds any of the otlier |iatients wlioare in
the asylinn. the use of aleoholie lii|Uors has been at all the |)i'edis|>ositi^ cause ( I think
it is so in many cases.
S:(;il-'l. Can you tell the CoiinnisNion in how many
;;et information on such points
«o : ot cut
use it is hard to
.■{.'{;>44. So you I'eally cannot furnish it ( No ; although liijuur may ha\f been the
cause in a ureat many.
.'{.'tlit"). (,'an you always rely en the statements you receixe .' No ; we eaniint.
,"$;{.'$|t». L)o you not lind always thut drink is gi\ en as the cause ^ No; I haxe never
found that.
.■{.'i:M7. Mijiht not families 1m' desirous of <;ettinji rid of the idea that there is
iiisanitv in tiie family and make drink the direct cause ' -You would fancy it wmild 1k'
so. but I have not found it so.
.'lH.'itS, Have you had any experience in a pro
hibib
trv countrv
I 1
lav.
had
exicrience w
here the Scott .\ct was in force,
,1
ew w lien vou were theic
nfor(
ml ci'itamiv
■XVMU. Was it in force in Heiifn
.■i;t;$."il>. How did it work >. We found it very dillicult to
tluM'e was a <;reat improvement in the morality <if the community.
.'?;i.'<r)|. Why. then, did the people repeal it .' There was some dillliiiltv about
jjettinj; a su|tply after the enforcement of the Act ; the people did not seem to be really
in svmpathy with it after votinj; for it.
;b"i;tr)J. You think that the peojile who voted for it left it take care of itself .' ^'es.
.■i:$;<r);5. l>o you think it was dis.satisfaction cau-ed by its woikinj,' thai led to its
repeal .' The reason advanced by its opponents wa.s, that it hail a pnjudicial itlcct on
the trade of the town. Pembroke and the lumberiiiLC country and the luiiilici men
instead of speiidiiii: their earninj,'s in IJenfrew went into ( (tiawa County, where thev
coulu piircliase linuor.
;<;{;}.")|. There wjus dithcultv in eiiforcin<' the Act
es, o^MII'' to IliiUo
broii'Mit ill from
the ]'
rovilice o
f (^11
just across the ri .ei
;i;i. ■$.")."). Was that liipior pun
but ! have no facts in connection wi
dlllterated .' I have heard of its I
th it.
lein
lllltl
licin;;
ited.
lt;t;{."i(). ^^'as there an impression that a ureal deal of liipio-- was used there .' \'cs,
1 have heard so.
;$;iUr)7. Have you yourself considered tne ipiestion of prohibition and its ] r.ictica-
bility f- -1 think it would be a ltimhI thin;;.
.'{.'JHoS. Are you favourable to ireneiai inohibilio'ii
.'KJ.'}")'.*. Ill case a ''eiieral
pmnibitory law w
ere enacted, woulii V"u favour the ;,'rant-
iiiij of eom|)ensatioii to brewers and distillers for the lo.ss of their plant .' I thii
ik not
tliev should take the same risk as
men eni'i
a^j'd
.tl
in otiier ini
lust I
les may
.■i.'iitflO. Have you thouifht of the matter in this li<,'ht : that other industr
ill' atl'ccted bv le;;islation indirectly, but this is excc|ptional, ihat it would be direct letjis-
lation, prohibiting those men from c-arryinjj; on their business '. - I never thought of that.
.'b'b'Jtil, Supjiosinj; a man eniri'ficd in any of the other ti'iules that are atlected bv
tarill" legislation, and instead of the le<;islatiou Ikmiii; iiuKlitied so as to adapt itself to tir
interests of the revenue, he Wius directlv le;;islated against, and a direct la
iw was passec
(i
tliat his business should be stopped, would he not have a riijlit to say to the Dominion
I'arl
iaiiient, " Pay me for my plant
It
derstoinl that brewers and disii
i'e(|uired by law t«i have certain plant in connection with their business in order to fultil
the rei|uireiiients of the law, and that certain machinery shall be uswl f The trade has
never U'en encouiaged by law, but it has been toloiuted.
n
i i>
(..■;
hi
I i-^-f
m
i'
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
<( "
ii !
.'{.■{.Kii'. Hut y<»u l>»^'' "•'^"■'' <'""<''l'"''''l 'I''** •I"'*'*''"" •' ^"'
Jtff li'-r. Dr. Mcl.vod :
'.V.\'MV.\. Kritiii your study "t" iiHMital (iisj-iiNcs, Imvc you i-oiiic to ii (Ictliiit)- o|iiiiion as
to liow far hort'dity is r<^s]MMlsi))lt■ for insmiity '. It is very liirj,'('ly lUw to tliiit. of
course.
.'{.'HKll. Hii\c you Im'cii iil>lf to dctt-riniiii* wlictlicr tilcoholisin is liir>;»'ly ii jircdispos-
'\n\^ rausf ; It is su|(|>4iscd (o lie l»y authorities ; of coui-se. it is dillicuit to detiiie.
.'{;);Uir>. it would appear from sucli elassilieation as it is possiWIe to uiake in an
insane asylum as to causes >el fortii in tlie classitication of cases, that a lar;.'e propor-
tion are due dir'ectly to alcoholism? i think the proportion of such cases will always
Im' more than the avera;;e.
.■$.■$;!(■)<>. 'i'liis (Commission h is already oliiained the evidence of l>r. Steeves. Medical
iSuiM'rintendent of the New llrunswick Asylum, and of |)r. Heid, Supeiintendenf of the
Dartmouth Asylum near Halifax, who stated that if it were |Missil)le to trace the causes
accurately, alcoholism wouiti U' i'es)ionsilile for a considerahle |)roportion of the insane
cases cared for in these institutions. Would that 1k' the result of your iiivestijiations on
this suhject ; My expi'iience has lieen rather limited, lint fi'om my reading; I iiave
.seen as liii;h as thirty per cent of the cases assi;;ned to that <'ause. Krom my own e.\|ieri-
ence the percentaj.'e woidd lie very much sfnaller, I should .)udt;e three per I'cnt.
.i.'J.Wir. Could you determine that .' I could not determine tiiat, Init I think alxfut
that proportion of cases were caused by alcoholisni.
.S.'S.'ttiS. How lonj; have you heen a practisinj; physician .' I have been in jiractice
since June last, and I was Actinij Sur;;eon three months in the Manitoba Penitentiary.
.'{.'l.'Wi'.t. From your practice ami your study, do you regard total abstiiu'iice as com-
patible with the best health? I do.
33H70. l>o you think iuibitual iiHKJerate drinkiiif; as harmful or useful ? —It nuiy
not be harmful, but it is useless.
."l^.'J"!. < >ther thinj,'s bein;; eipial, do you ihink the total abstainer has any letter
exp«'ctation of life than a hal)itual drinker? — I think so.
liif Jndye McDondld :
'.\'M\7'2. What do you mean by a haintual drinker! df you drink a xery small
ipiantity of alcohol 1 do not think it will hurt you, but 1 think it is harmful when a
man takes two or three drinks a day.
Jii/ lii'v. Dr. McLeod :
XVM'^. This term "drink habit" is a somewhat elastic one in mens minds, and
there is scarcely any man will admit that he is an excessive drinker. When 1 speak of
the drink hal)it or of the habitual tise, 1 mean the use of alcohol every day, more or less,
l)Ut not to drunkenness- I refer to those who take ai\ "eye opener" in the niorninj;,
and take licpior at dinner and as a " nif{ht cap." Do you think in case of sick ne.ss a
total abstainer hiis any i)etter ciiaix-e of recovering than the man of whom 1 have sjK>ken ?
— 1 think s<i, I am pretty certain of it.
XVM'^a. You have expressed yourself as opposed to granting compensatio!! to brewers
and distillers, do yini know of any business of tiie same character wliicli, in your opinion,
would seem to have less claim for compensation than the business that is carried on by
distillers and brewers? — No.
Gordon Bell.
174
57 Victoria.
Senuional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
FHKD. II. IIKSSON. of IJihikIi.ii, I'.illiMtoi ..f Cuslnins, on iM-iiiii <lul\ sworn,
(le|Mi.sfil us follows :
By Jmiiji: Mr Uuiudd :
'.\?i',\~^. Mow lonji liiivt' you rcsidt-fl in lirandon /— 'I't-n yt-ars.
.'{."i.'STi"). How lon^; Iiiint you Ix'cn ("ollcctor ot" I'ustonis '. Nine ycai's.
.'J.'i.'JTt). I lM'lii'\<' you rcsidcil in Ontario licforc you canic licrf .' ^'l•s.
.S;i.'<77. Ill wliicli county ( — I iivt-d at Stiatt'ord. in tlu> County of Pi-rtli.
.'l.'t.'JTH. Tliat town has never Iteen under a ]ii-oliiliitory law, I l«'lie\e '. -No.
H;t:{7'.t. Have you ever lived in a euuntry untler |irohil)iti\e en.irtinent .' In IMS2,
tliis |M>rtion of Manitoha was then a iiortion of the North-west Territories, and ISrandoii
was under a ])rohii)itoi'y law.
.'{.'(."tSO. Was the law enforced liei'e '. No, it was not.
;{;{:».S1. Could liquor he ol)tained then ,' Yes.
.S.'KtSJ, After jirohihition was enacted '. Yes, in spite of it.
.■{.'t.'W.'i. I >o you know what was the character of the liijuor, whether it was |iure or
adulterated, or wei'e hoth kind.s to l)e found here / 1 r'cally could not say : I think if
there was ^(mkI li(|uor hert% it would he very expensive.
.■{.■$.'!.S|. |)urin;,' your residence in lirandon have you found it a well-conducted town
with orderlv people .' -Yes, verv orderlv.
.•5:?:J8-.." And also soln-r '. Yes.
.■J3.'38(). As Collector of Customs, hav*- you much litpior l»rou;L;ht in from other
plaoeH ? — Yes; there is coiisideiahle litpior lnought in from the old ctaintry and from
Europe.
Is it consijined here direct fi'<im Kurope ? Yes,
Have you the tif^ures showing; the importations i- -I am unahle to i;i\c
.S:{:5S7
figures.
.•{3389
anv
If
Your l>ooks would show, I suppo.se? — It Wivs ditiicult to i;et at then
you had the ti};ur«>s for Winnipejj;, they would include my fi<,'ures here.
X.V.V^O. Would the IJlue H<K.ks at Ottawa show them '. -Yes.
33.S9I. Is this a suh-otlicc of Winnipe;; .' Yes.
33392. Do you consider that a ;;enei'al jirohihitory law could he enforced ? — I am
afraid I have not jfiveii the suhject very much consideration.
33393. Do you think a ])rohihitorv law could Im^ enforced? Fi-om the exj)erience
we have had, it would seem that it could not he enforced.
.33394. Ill case of the enactment of a general prohihitory law, do you think it svould
he right and just to compensate brewers and distillers for loss of plant / I do.
3339."). Have you noticed since the coming into fon-e of the license law whether it
seems to he fairly carried out? I think it has Iwen fairly carried out here ; more so, in
fact, than in a great many oilier places in which I have lived. The state of atVairs is
even In'tter than in places where I have visited that hiul the Duiikin Act and other
such Acts ill force.
Jiy Rev. Dr. McUod :
3339(5. You have stated that when proliil)itio!i was in operation in this part of
Manitoba it was ineffectual, from your own oh.servation ? I do not think there was
any particular etl'ort made to enforce it at that time.
33397. How man\' years have elapsed since this |H)rtion (»f the country was a por-
tion of the North-west Territories? — It was so in 1884.
33398. Then it liecame part of this province? — Ye.s. I think the people here were
for two years without a licensed hou.se.
33399. It was under the North-west iiroliihitory law ? — Yes.
33400. Did you notice that the permit system had any effect here? -The permit
system wa.s not in use here at all ; the jHJople simply brought in liquor, and it was .sold
here.
33401. ^Vas that during the construction day.s?— No ; it was during 1882 and 1883,
and it wivs done almost openly.
175
;i:ih
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.'l.'Udl'. \\'ii» there im Hii|M'fviHi<<ri liy the Miiiiiil<><| i'i>li(;e / -They were imt \wvi'.
."l.'HO.'t. S(i tlielnule went uii iiliiiiist witliiiiit clieek f N'es. I tliink the result wiis
tlmt there \va> more (irinkiii;; than under the lieeiise system.
.'t.'ilOI. Has tliere heeii iiri iiierejise iit' im|K>rtiit inns of li(|Uor to Kriiinlon in j;reiiter
ratio thiiu th<> iiiereas<> of |Hi|iuhiti(iii .' I am not aide to say. The im|iortatioiis luiv^
iiu'reased, liut that is only ow in^r to some of the li(|Uoi' dealers iui|K)rtinu' theii' lii|ui)r,
instead of l)uyinK i' here.
/ii/ Jiuhji' Mi'lJitiut/tl ;
:<;U(I."). I )id you say that some lii|iior dealer's liere im|>orted direct ! Tliere is l)ut
one lii|Uor de.ilei' here who is a direct nnporter.
/(,/ A'.r. /),: .U.L.i,./:
.'{.'(loll. r>ut you are not al>le to say wiietlier tiiciv Iuin In-en an im-rea.se in the
(]iiantity or not '. No.
■M
i^ lit-
A. M. I'KTI'IK.*'** )N, of IJiandou, Liwyer, on In-iiig duly sworn, de|M)sed a.s foliow.s : —
liif .liiil'lf Mr Ihinithl :
'.\'.\\{)~. Mow Ion;; iiave you resided in llrandon .' Ten years.
;{.'U().'<. hill you come here from Ontufin? -Yes, I previously lived in Helleville, in
Ilastiii;;s (bounty.
.'(.'M0!». Do you hold any official |iosition ? — I am Crown < Mficer for the Western
•fudicial histriet.
.■l.'Uld. Mow Ioul; hiive you lieen priu'tisin^ law .' Ten years.
'.V.\\\ I, Mow loTit; have you U'cn C'rown OiJieer .' ISetweeii three and four ve.'irs.
.'I.') I 111. is there nnu-h eiime in the district '. No.
.'l.'Ul.'t. Keferrin;; to the crime that exists, ju<l',dn;i; from your experience, is any
j)orti(iii to Im- atli iliuted to intemjierance f Yes.
;{.'5il4. A lai-;,'e proportion ' ^'es.
.'{:U|.">. What projiortioM ' - I do iu>t know that I could ^'ivc the proportion, liut I
.should say a consideraliie proportion,
.'i.iHl'. Ma\e you made it a matter of study ? — No.
."•-■UlT. You could not make a delinit(> estinuite, 1 supjiose? No.
.'i.'tllS. Takim; your experience, do you find that men chartted with crime ;ire ;ipt
t.o put forward drunkenness as ;in excuse to intluence the .ludue toyivea li^'ht sentence (
I have nexcrkm wn .i single case of that kind not where I had reason to suppose
that the party was |iut'in]si that forward as an excuse.
.'<.'VH!>. 'hien vou have heard that statement put forward, hut you iM'lieved that it
was true .' 'N'es.
.'{.'Ul'M. Have y<iu oliseixed the workin;; of the license law /Yes, somewhat; 1
have con'lucted pi-oceediniis hei'e.
•'{.'(ll'l. l>o \ou mean prosecut i(Mis against licen.sees charged witli break in;; the law ?
— Yes.
">:irjL'. Were any of them |trosecution8 for selling on Suiwlay? — Yes.
.'i:il2.'i. Also for sellint; li(|uiM' after hours on week days .' - Yes.
:i.'{tl!4. And f< a- any other violations'! — Some were cliargefl with .sellini; without
license.
.'J.'UJ.'). Mave you liad an\' ca.st- of selling to niinors, <ir anything of tiiat kind '/—
Nothing of that kind has occurred under my observation.
'.■U2(). Have tliere Iwen nianv charged with selling on Sunday and after hours? —
Yes.
;?.'{ I'J". And then there was tlie other class of people, .selling witliout licen.se ? — Yes.
Fkeu H. Hksson.
176
67 Victoria.
SesHional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'t.'M'JH. IlikVf tlicrc Ih'oii iniiiiv cases ut' llit- liitt*-i' kiiiil( TIutc Imvc not Ih>i-ii iiutiiy
cast's ciinHidci-ini; till' iirra lit' tin- ilisti-ict. in t'aci, I think tlicrc lia\c Im-cm scrv t'cw
xiitlatiniiH takiiiu |iiacc.
.'i.'Ul.'!*. llaM' villi ciiiiHiili'icd tlic i|iii'st imi ut' t In- I'liact iiicnt nt' a t^cncfal |ii'ii|iiliitiii'v
law ! 'I'll siiMic extent.
.'KM.'iU. Ai't* yiiii t'aMiiiralile til |ii'iiliiliitiiiii ? lam.
li.'d.'il. |)i) villi think a |iriiiiiliitiny iuw tur the wlinle I'lUintiv i-niilil lie ent'ni'ccil I -
Yes: I (111 nut see why it cuiilil not lie ent'orceil.
.'i.'M.'t'J. You till tint think there wuulil lie ilitlii-nity in eiit'incin;; .such a law .' 'I'liere
ale ilitliculties in enl'oi'einu an\ law,
.'{.'U.'i^t. |)ii you tind theie is any (liU'ereni'e in the view taken liy the |iulilic ot' this
law anil other laws .' ^■es, I think there is more ilillieiilty in ent'orcin^t a li(|Uorla\\ than
any law I know of.
.'i.'U.'U. Is that line to the tact that pulilii' sentiineiit is not in t'a\iiiirot' its eiit'orce-
incnt t Not exactly
.■{;U;<">. Can you not m't a ttrcater iMnly ot [lulilic sentiment in t'a\our ot' tic •'iit'orce-
iiieiit of other laws ( I do not know.
.'{:ll-'lti. The ditticulty is that ineii suli|iii'iiaed to irixe evidence of \iolatioii of liijuor
laws seem more inclined to shield tlieinseh es, and do not wish tu a|i|iear in liijUor cases.
Have \ou not found it so .' -^'es.
:<.'lt.'<7. l>o villi find that their men
lories iire \er\- (
lefecti
.S;M;!S. Ill consideriiiL! the i|uestion of elVecti\e enforcement of |iroliiliition, liaM
I I
Von taken into account the state of |iul)|ic o|iiiiiiin in all the |ii'oviiices ; i iia\eiie\er
li\e<l ill any other |ii'o\ iiice in ( 'anada exccjit in Manitolia and < hitario. I do not wish
II not see whs the la\v could nut lie enfiirced in
to set one man almve aiiutlier.
It I d
that re^'ard as in anytliiiiL: else. I liejiexe, if the Police .Maj;ist rates and the .1 iidLtes wert^
t'avouralile to |irohihition and to the enforceiiient of a i.'<'iicral |iriiliiliiliiry law, it would
lie as well ei
forced asiiiiv law aL'ainsI theft or anv other crim'
.'{."U.'iit. l>o vou think the wei<r|it of |iulilic sentiment in rcyai'd to that law would
the si'.me as in reyard to a law lesjiect iiiu' theft / l*erha|is not just the same. Itut
wl
erlia|is not just t lie same. Itu
leii there is such a |)ie|ioiideiaiice of o|iinion in favour of such a law in these |irov iiices
il.ti
viiudo not want to wail tor more or less, or you would never ootain such a law.
.■<;{4M). hut take the case of tiie |iroviiices in which the |ire|)oiideranL-e of o|iinioii is
the other vvav ? I would hope to enforce such a law there.
.■{.'Mil. Then I Understand you to say that if you could j.'et jiulilic sentiment in
tavour of such a law, vmi would enforce it ; and if not, you would Imiie to do so? Yes.
;{;H l'_'. Have vou reason to believe that the men in the Iii|iior t rade here sell imjiure
and adulterated lii|u'or? I do not know.
■■?."MI."i. Have you considered the iiuestion of urantiiii; compensation to hrewers and
distillers foi- loss of plant in case of the enactment of a i;eneial prohiliitory law? I do
not think they deserve any coiiiiieiisation.
.■{.'{44.'{". lUit for loss of plant, if for notliin.!.' else ; No : they have seen lit to invest
their money in a liusiness which has made lari;e returns, and if a prohihitory law was
I'liforcefl against them, I consider they would have nothiiiit of which ti mplain.
% Rn: Dr. MrLmd:
:>.'U4+. Speakin;; aUiut the unwillingness of witnesses to testify and the extra-
iiiilinary lap.ses of inemory ii> eases of violation of the liipior laws, have yon thou^lit
whether the uiiwilliii;;ness on the part of tlio.se witnesses arises from the fact that they
have lieeii in most ca.ses parties to the crime ! It is possiltle.
.■$.'Utl<f. Is it a fact that in most cases the witiies.ses in liipior prosecutions are
iii'cessarilv persons who were parties to the violation or attempted violation of the law ;
Yes.
.■i;U4."). Do you think that fact would make them unwillinj^ to testif}- ? — .Soinetiines
it would and sometimes it would not.
.■<:UI<i. In reifard to the ditierent state of opinion that is said to jirevail in a coin-
iiiiniitv in re<;ar(l to the enforcement of laws : does that arisc! Ijecause the laws against
'lie li(|uor triule are comparatively new \ — 1 do not think so.
177
\
21—12**
67 Victoria.
SeaHiomil PliperH (No. 21.)
A. i894
•')34 17. Wliili- till- liiws iij{iiiii>it titlifi' otIi-iu-cs(liit«- t'l'iiiii (iiiir iiiiini'inui jul .' I iln not
think tlifn* is tiny finxt^ in that iilca, for tli<< li<|Ui)r laws liiivc Ufii in force ii lon^ tinif.
:(■'(( (H. Is tliiT)- II >tr<iii)( |iiil)lic sfiiiiniinl in fiiMiiir of (lie fiiforcfiiiciit of iIm- lii|uoi'
laws / Yfs. tin-re i'*.
.'J;H J".'. Ai'' any of tin- vviinrHHCN interfiled in tlie (latli- as patronH of llie house '.
Yes; ill one wiiy or lUiotliiM' they ar«! iiitereHlni, ami they are |it'«-ju(liee<| in repini to
the tniile.
.'l.'(l')l). Takiti;; the recent |ilel)iNcite : <l(i you un<lei'Htan<l from that vote that tli««
|ieo|ile of Manitoiia really desire |irohiliition .' I do not see what other \ iew can Im>
taken of it.
."t.'U'il. We IiimI evidence at \Viniii|iej; that the people \oted for fun .' I ha\e never
heard {MMiple s|M-ak of it in that way.
'Mi't'2. l>o voii think it is an honest expression of the jteople's opinion .' I lieaitl
plenty of men who ha\e expressed iheiiiseUes fa\oural)le to prohiWition derlare they
would Vote against it at the pleltiscite, and I may state that lots of men whoNoted
a;;ain>t prohiWition would have voted for it if tiiey hiid lielieved that the iinx' wius ri|M>
for the enactment and enforcrment of such a law, I think the people ^'a\e consideration
to the matter ami vote<l as they thou;;ht liest. I d(» not iM-iieve that those who voted
for prohiliition U-Iieved that it would Ih- a had measure, iiiit I iM-lieve those who vote<i
against prohihition Ix-iieved that such a law would In- a •'immI thin;;, liut that the time
was not ri|K- to attempt its enforcement.
.'{.'( t.'i.'t. So the vote in favour of prohiliition is not the expression of all the peopli-
favouraltle to it .' I am not ]u-e|iared to say that the |M>ople of Maiiitoha are fools, and
I Iwlieve tliey expr<-s.sed their honest sentiments.
WFLLFAM A. MACDONALK, .M.IM'., of Ihandon. IJarrisier, on In-iny duly
8Worn, dejMi.sed as follows :
Jii/ Juilyi' Mc.DowtId : •
.'lH4')t. Mow long have you resided in .Manitolia .' Over ten years.
.'{.'U'l-'i. Have you re siil<?<l all that time in liranilon ?-~Yes, with the exi-eption of a
few months in \Vinni|>«'g-
.'{;?l.*it>. 1 till you come here from one of the other provinces? — I came here from
Ontario, fnun Lincoln County.
.■{.■?4.")7. l>o you hold any otticial |Hi.sition here ; -I ha\e the honoui- to lie the Im-al
MemlH-r.
^.'Uri.s. How long liave you held that position ? — Since the last general election, on
•J.Wil .Inly last.
.■S.'U')!). How do you find this community compare with otiu-rs in which you have
lived : ilo you find it to Ik- an orderly and law-aliiding one? — Ye.s, very orderly.
;{.'J4tiU. l)ovou Hnd it compaivsfavciuralily with otlu r conununities in Ontario? -Yes,
lievond ipiestion ; ami wt- pridi- oiiisehes on that fact.
.■{;5t'il. So far as you have observed, do the jM-ople engaged in the liipior t rathe and
who hold licenses apjiear to live up to the law ; 'Ihey live up to it as well as the
Hcen.se<'s in other pliu-es.
:i.'>4<>L'. A witness here to-da}', 1 think the Police .Magistrate, toll the Commission
that he did not lielieve then- was a desire on the part of men engaged in the tratlic to
lir«ak the law, hut that guests and friends come in at all houi's wanting drinks, at hours
not within the terms of their licenses !— Krom my observation that statement is no doubt
correct ; jieople come in at wrong hours and expect drink as part of their rights.
.■?:J4<i.'?. .judging fi-oin your experiences of the working of the license law, .ire there
aiiv ane-ndments you could suggest? — We Hnd the law has lieen amended from time to
time ; but is tln-r»- any amendment tliat in your view would make it more efl'ective.
A. M. Petkkso.v.
178
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
•'^<iKt{*"*tii>'>'^ liitxf Inm'ii iiiiuif (u tliM CuiniiiisHiiiii in favour of lii^li lic<MiH<> iitiil liiiiitutiitii
of till- iiiiiiiImm' of licfii«)-7' JHsufil. Wliiit i.H your o|iiiiiiiii on llmsf |HiiiiiM ! I consider lliiii
li
liiuli I
Ifflisr ||»>I»
Itlii:
.'t.'Mtll. W't' liiivf ln'fii told tliiit llu'i'f iiri- fiKliI licenses is.siiol liei'e : is tliiit iiiini'i«>i'
•ient ,' YfH.
.'l.'Uti.*). |)o you i-oiiNidcr tliitt to Ih> ii reiiMoniilili' nundM-r ! Yes.
M:Utir>. Do Vou know wlmt the license fee is f I would Mul like to slate witli
el'litinlV. lull It llllls nil close III .•'.it M)
;t;ut
II .
II
ll\e voil 111
hsiderni the iul\ isaliilit y of iiiMlin;; the jiersistent driinkiifd l>
^liiitlinK liiin u|i in some itsyiiini instead of scndin;; liini to jail for slioi'l terms every
now iiiiW tliiMi f Tliitl is II iniitter wliidi I liave not coiisidere<l, uiid I sliould not like to
'iive an ojiinion on it otTliaiid.
.'t.'HtiH. Have yoii considered llie ijUeMtion of proliiliit ion '. Yrs.
■ t.'tliill. Have vou ever iiad anv cx|icrieni'i- i
iindi
I'
iliil.ili
I I
iav(
had
some
• Ajierience uiidei' llie old l>iiiikiii Act in the township of I'elhain.
■'(•U7<). How (lid it work! It did not work Kiilisfactorilv. We are |iart of the
newly iuided territory of .Matiilolui, and thcie was no license law in force when I came
here first.
lt."U71. Was there a jii-eat (leal of sale of liiji
iiid a ''real deal of drunkenness.
There was a ^reiit deal of sale
.'I.'li7l.'. Have you considered at all the ;;rantin).' of com|>ensation to lirewers and
distillers in the event of the enactment of ii >.'eneral (irohiliitory law, in which case their
Itiisiness Would Ih' shut ii|i Ity Act of I'arliamenI I It i.s a matter to which I have ;{iveii
M'ly little attention, hut my o|iinioii is that <m|)ensiitioii should 1m> ;;i\eii them.
% /("'f. Dr. M.Leoil:
•'i.'U'.'i. I think you said that the license law was oli.served here as well as it
wius
iliservcd in other ('ommuniti
llav(! VOU ohserved how liie license law is ohservcd
nc'iieridly f My cxiM'rience in .ic jilace from which I came was, tliat it was fairly well
iiliserv (■(
I tl
lere.
It is onlv l>\ remeiiilirance that I sav it mav Ik- iH-ttcr oliser\c(| in
other towns in < )ntario.
I think, however, that I
icre as W(
II
there the lav
fairh
w
ell ohservcd. < )f course, there hav • Im-cii cases of infraction of the law and in soin
irosecutions ; some succeeded and some did not.
IJ.'UTl. |)o yoii believe that the licensees very generally (lisrc;;iirde(l the iirovisioiiM
of ill. law which |irohihited sale after certain hours, and on the Saliliath '. I Ix-lieve
they did not, hut tried to liv(^ up to thw law. I may say that tliei'c is not, j,'enerally,
drinkin-,' fjoini; on on Sunday.
;{.'{47."). You have stated that you hav(^ observed the working of the l>iinkin Act in
Ontario/ Yes, in the township of Pelham in Wclland, which town is in Lincoln
t 'ounty.
.■t;?17l>. \'ou said that it did not work satisfactorily f ^'cs, that is years a;;o.
.■i.'M77. Is the Act still III <.j.erati()ii / I fancy it is.
3.'M7f<. If it did not «vij:k, why was the Act retain(Hl in force ? I have stated w hat
•aiiie within my knowl(>d<;e.
;i.'tl7'.*. You spoke of the early years <)f its operalion, I lieliev(
.'<.'M.'^0. Have vou ''iven
coiisideration
to ih
ucstloii ol ])l
iliiliiti
and to th
general election whicii took place liei-e Jud^'e .Mcl>onald omitted to ask whether you
are in favour of prohibition ? -I favour it, if backed up by the sentiment of the ])eople.
•'$.'US1. |)o vou regai-d the sentiment of the peo])|e. as expre>*'-.(l by the recent ^
plcliiscite, as a
^ood b:
/ It
wiiuld bean indication of the feeiin;' if the iiconie V()te(l
!ic wav thev felt. I voU^d iIk- way I felt.
pcop:
•'t.'MS-J. You tliou;;ht the jieojile ineaiit to vote for you ? Yes.
.■{34S;{. And meant to vote for |irohibition at the r(*cent election ? We had a hot
'oiitest in the city, and no doubt |iolitics (lrov(! th^ (|uestion of temperance a little out
'f the ]iublic mind, though for all that, I bcliev(! theic was a fair expression of public
"pillion. Hut the people did not ;;ive the .s,inie tliou<^ht to it as th(>y would have done
had I he (piestioii been brougiit up separately.
)l_12il**
179
m
i
m
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■$.'MH|. Ill tlic (••(litest lifre, wiis it nut a huriiiiifi; (lue.stinn ? Yes.
.'i.'UHf). You have stiitwl tluit you tliiiik hivwers and distillers sliviuid receive eom
peiisation : jjlease state why ? — They are carryinj; on now what is a legitimate trade,
and if general prohihition came into foree they would lie deprivefl of tiieir business anrl
their plant would he praetically worthless. That would he a little harti, for it would
l)e dej)ri\ing them (»f their liusiiiess by law.
.■i;UH('), Do you consider that tratie to be legitimate in the same sense as a general
merchant's business, such as groceries and (hy goorls, is legitimate ? Except so far as
sentiment goes ; these men are engagef! in a business which j)eo|(le consider is not a
business to lie eMeourage<i.
.'i;M87. So the sale of li(|Uor in a coinmunity is a legitimate business? — Of course
some might diil'er on this point, but it^ is a fact tliat brewers and distillers and licensed
vendors are conducting a trade which is legalized simply because they pay the authori-
ties a license from year to year.
Jli/ Jiidifc McDonald :
.■{34MS. Remember that the law i-e(piires brewers and distillers to put in certain
nuich'.nery in order to meet the reijuirements of tiie llevenue J)e])artment, and that in
the event of the enactment of a piohibitory law, it would not be an indirect order but
a distinct oidei- by law t(t shut uj) the business? Cjuite so.
By liev. Dr. McLeod :
.'i;U88(«. Remember this also. The law reciuires a manufacturer t<j put in ceitain
machinery, if he is determined to enter the business and is willing to pay a cei'tain
price for the privilege of carrying on that business for a certain time. The law dues
not sav a man must do .so and so, but when a man is deter:nined and has made up bis
miiul to enter the bu.siness, the law provides that he cannot do so uidess he fulfils cer-
tain conditions? -Yes.
Bjf J}ul(jp, McDonald :
:}:i4iSy. But since the manufactuiei
numbei' of conditions? Hxactly so.
has entered the business, the law has added a
/;,// /(■'•(•. Dr. MvL'od:
:i.'}4!)0. Still let it be remembeietl that the law simply gi\es him the {irivilege from
year to year to carry on his business, and if at the en(i of the year he does not comply
with the conditions, his business is no longer a legal one. Is there no ditforence between
that business and another one that does not re()uire compliance with such recjuirements
and conditions ? — You say that these licen.ses are voluntarily taken out and must bo
rcuiewed eviMT year?
S.'U'.M. I think so? — I cannot alter luy opinion, which I have entertained for some
time, that lirewers aiul distillers should be compensated in sonu' measure for loss in-
'urred. if the connnunity should place a general prohibitory law in force.
;{:U1)l'. Do you believe that the result of the <lrink trattic is to establish evils, harm-
ful tl'iii;.i;s to the comnninity, and that it is injurious to the people at large to any
d<'gree? 1 i)elieve that the di-inking of alcoholic liipiors is harmful in some cases.
.■?.'U!t:l. Not in all, but in some ca.ses ? — Yes. The same rule is observed in regard
to other aiticles which ar<' intended for jiublic use.
.i.il!)!. If thelirinvcrsand distillers and the liipior business generally have prochiced
certain e\ib: and have l)rought injurious practices on the people, and if tliat Ijusiness was
closed, would it bi\ do you think, the right of the people to demaiul compensati(m from
those men who havi> made large prohts, rathei' than that the people should be called upon
to compensate men in the trade who have made fortunes? — I am charitable enough to
believe that some compensation should be given.
.{.'M!)"). Have then> n )t been changes in tlie tariff law which have had .serious effect
on business? -The tariff in Canada --especially that connected with the manufacture of
William a. Macdonald.
180
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
lii|Uor — has been one tluit has bktm stut''ed from year to year, aiul it has been the expec-
tation of tlie people and of tlie members of Parliament that changes wouUl take place.
;?.'U9fi. Is it afacttiiat pulilic opinion concei'ninji the drink traffic has been changing
from year to year and changing in one diiection, which all men in the business have
known, and in rega-t' 'o whicli tin y should lia\e prejiarerl for the change that seemerl
to be coining? -I sup|,ose they have that dread on their minds, but so far their trade
has remained legalized and legitimate, and the law allows them to c(tntinue.
."i.Ut)?. Then you consider that they ahouUI be granted comj)ensaiion ? — 1 did not
sav in what measure.
:i:i4U8. But somewhat ?--Ye.s.
.'{."Ui)!). If you would compensate brewers and distillers fur loss of plant, should not
the State also com])ensate licensed vendors for loss involved from rendei'ing useless their
jiroperty? That is a matter of detail into which T would not care to enter.
ll for .some
for loss in-
Rkv. x\LEXANDER URQUHAHT, of Hrand.m, on being duly sworn, deposed as
f illows : —
]iy Jndye McDonald :
3.Tr)00. To what Church do you l)elong? To the Presbyterian Church of Canada.
."J.'J.'JOl. How long have you resided in Manitoba?- T have been in ^^anitoba and
tiie North-west Territories al)out nine years.
.S;5;j02. How Ions' have vou been in Brandon ? .\bout thret; and a half vears.
.{^oOa. V
Oxford County.
vhich (,f the pro^inces did you come? -I cjime from f)ntai'ir), fi
■om
3:?r)04. How lonu is it
SMice vou
left? Sixteen "r seventeen year.'
;i.S.")0."). The county at that time was under the old-fashioned license \i\.\\ of Ontario,
1 believe? — I think it was.
3.'i")0(). In regard to the s(»cial customs of the jieoplp in liiis .section of tlie cimntrv,
have you found since you came here an improvement among the people as a I'oiniimnity ;
have thev in'aduallv settled dowi
-I think 1 can i tv sfi,
33007. Judging from your observation, do ;ou tliink alcoholic l)everages are leas
used socially than forinerh'? — I cannot speak of course from a very extensive knowledge
of the Provinceof ^[anitoba, but I think the gen, ral use of li(iuor has diniiiiislied as com-
pared with the eai'ly days, when excrytliing was in i\. more unsettled condition than now.
33.")0H. Do you tind that religious iiitluenccs, teiii))t>r;iiice societies, and educational
intluences are all o])erating in that line? - 1 think so.
33509. And have they produced a beneficial result. -I think so.
33r)10. Have you observed the working of the license law in this ]iru\ince? — I
have in a general way, from coming into contact with the people.
33.511. Hav? V
l)U tOUIK
1 that the liccnsf! law noM- in force is well obscixcd, or are
there many btvaches of its provisions? I am not in a iiositiun to say what breaches
of the law may be committed from time to time. I ha\e \fry little means of knowing
wjiether the provisions of the law a'v li\-ed u[t to in that jiarticular. because men, 1
presume, can drink all the li((uor they wish. 1 am unable to answer the (|Uestion.
•■i3.")lL>. Have you in your duties as a minister of the gosjiel found e\il I'csults fol-
iiwmg the use of intoxicating beverages? I h
in what
.').3.")13, In families 1 suppose
pials of the jteople and every way.
way
3.3.") 14. To anv I'reat extent? -Yes, to a
In families ami indixiduaN. in the
(lerable extent, usiii^ that term in a
i;<'n(
ll
■ral
■ay.
3.'t.")l."). Have you ever considered the (piestion of the |)ersistent drunkard? -T
33rilG. 1 now tvfer to the man who is constantly before the j)olice court, rnd who i^
sent to jail for a short time, and who
IS out
ayain i^^kI in ayain and so on. Would it 1h'
181
I
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
better to shut up sucli a man in an inebriate asylum or institution of that kind, or
allow the present system to continue I — Shutting up bar-rooms would be the most efl'ective
thinf,'.
•i'Mi\7. That is to say you would do away with the bar-rooms as a whole. At the
j)resent time I am dealing with the system as we have it? — I have not given thatmattci-
any consideration.
.■}.'i.51H. Then your remedy would be to shut up the liquor from him ? — Certainly.
;5;}.'il'J. 8o long as he can get the lii|'ior when he is out of jail, would it not be better
to shut him away fi'omit? If there was no way of reforming him, that process of
i-eformation would be desirable.
33520. Hut 1 understand that your remedy would be to shut uj) bar-rooms alto-
gether ? — Yes.
33r)21. Then you favour pi'ohibition ? — -Yes.
'y.\')22. Do j'ou favour it as a princij)le? — Yes, and for its effects.
.'53523. Do you think it a practicable measure? ?- Yes.
33524. Do you think it might be piactically enforcd? — As effectually as othci-
laws.
33525. Would you favour the enactment of such a law for the province fir for tht;
Dominion '/ — For the Dominion, if we could secure it ; if not, for the province.
33526. If for the j)i'ovince, do you think it could be thoroughly enforced ?- -Ye.s, so
far as any law cati be carried out.
34527. Would 3'ou hope to enforce it for the Dominion ? — ^I see no reason why it
could not be enforced.
33528. Take this case. Supposing a j)rohibitory law were submitted tor the whole
Dominion. The Maritime Provinces voted strongly in favour of it, (Quebec strongly
against it, Ontario, perhaps, slightly favouring it, this Province of Manitoba stronglj' in
favour of it, British C>)lumbia strongly against it. Would you hope over the whole
Dominion to enforce such a law ? — T would expect it, just as T would expect the enforce-
ment of any law enacted by the Dominion authorities.
33529. The ()uestion is whether ycui could hope to enforce it effectually or not '.'
Not, perhaps, at the outset, but eventually.
33530. Hav(? you considered the cjuestion of granting compensation to brewers and
distillers for loss of plant in the event of the enactment of a general i)rohibitory law .'
— 1 have given the matter some thought.
33531. What is your opinion f That they ai-e not entitled to compensation.
.3.3532. Tiuii'efore, you are unfavourable to its being granted I — Yes.
:).35.32'(. Has the synod of the Presbyterian Church in this province taken any
spi'cial action in regard to this (|uestion .'—Yes. 1 hanfl in the Report of the feyniMl
[Appendix 4.]
3353.3. I beliext! you have lived in the Nortii-west Territories'? — Between four and
five years.
33534. Have you resided in Hegina 'I — Yes.
33535. How <lid t\w ])rohibitoi'y law work there /^It was nuich pi'eferable to the
license system.
3353(i. Was there any sale of li(|Uor under it / — Not to my knowledge.
33537. Was there any use of li(|Uor f I)i(l you ever see any drunkenness ? — Very
little.
33538. I suppo.se you were not in a position to personally see whether nuicli li(|Uor
was consumed or not? No.
33539. 1 understand the Synod made a deliverance protesting against the way in
which the permits were issued, and also, I think, advocating that the law should lie
changed ? — Yes.
33540. Since then has there l)een any legislation on the part of the Territories ]
— There has.
33541. What has been th(! effect? -TIh; license system is in ojid'ation there now.
33542. Then the Legislature, elected by the people of the Territtiries, ajipears to
have difl'ei'ed from the sentiment expressed by your Synofl ? — It seems to have done so.
Rkv. Ar.EXANDEH Urquhaht.
182
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
33543. Havi! you U>iiriic(l whotlier the incroase ut' permits was attriltutiiblc t«t
the t'act tliat, owing to tlie poor (|iiality <>t' li(|iior being smuggled into tlie Ten-itories, it
wiis thought iulvisalile to extend tiie system of permits, in order to allow a better class of
liquor to be brought in ? — Xo, T hav(^ never understood that th<' aetion was taken on
those grounds. ] think the action was taken on the part of those who wanted to carry
on the trathe and those who desired to have tin; tratlic. They urge(l that those change.s
should be brougiit alnnit.
33544. Did those jjermits enable peo|)le to enter into the ti'aflic or get liquor simply
for private use? — The liijuor was to bt^ simply for jn'ivate use. Lattei-ly, howi-ver, per-
mits were granted which practically amounted to a license. Tliat was during the last
year of my residence in the Tei'ritories, when beer containing 4 parts of alcohol was
admitted. I am n<it prepared to .say what other li(]Uoi's wert^ brought in.
33545. Was it supposed that licjuor was brought in containing more than five per
cent of alcohol ? — From the results I should judge that some of the li(|Uor contained
more than five per cent.
33546. Was there an increase in drunkenness ? — Yes, evidently.
33547. Was it supposed that persons allowed by law to bring in liquor for private
use, brought in liipior f(jr purpose of sale ? — It was supposed to be done in certain cases.
33548. Was it found that the sale of li(|uor increased after jjerinits were allowed? -
That wa.s clear. During four years of my residence, under (lovernor l{oyal, I seldom
saw a, drunken man ; afterwards that occurrence became (|uite common. T visitt'd the
Territories a year later, and T may say that \ was pained to see the change.
33549. Jfave you been there since the license law wius in force? — No; I presume
the condition is no better.
33550. l)Ut you have no personal knowledge of it ? — -I have no jjer.sonal knowledge.
yyy Jff-r. Dr. McLmil :
33551. You are unable to say what has been the eff(!ct of the change to a license
sy.stem, I suppose? — Yes : of the license to permit and the modified license system, I can
speak.
3355l'. Speaking of the years under the permit system and the sale under that
system, T belit^ve permits were granted in quantities of one hundi'ed giiUons for the pur-
poses of sale, in l)S8i( ? — I think not. I have not so understood the permit syst<;m ; I
think five gallons was the cp-.aittity that could be brought in.
33553. I_ notice from the returns, that in 1883, permits were granted for t),75<)^,
gallons ; in 18i)0, 15.3, ()70 gallons ; the population increased about 2.', percent, while the
li(pior consumption increased about 250 jier cent. Did you ob.serve under this la.x
administration whether there was an increase in drunkenness and the effects resulting
from it? — I think the figures you have given for 188!) were under the moditied law,
which allowed all li(piors under five per cet\t to come in, anil of cuui'se the percentage of
liquor rolled uj).
33554. In 188!), the permits were for 151,!)l)!t gallons ? Under that law they were
allowed to sell liquor in any hotel.
33555. The purpose was said lo be to pi'event .so much spirits being distributed, and it.
was arg'ie(l that if more of this four or five jier cent beer was introduced, there would be
less sj)irits consumed ; i)Ut is it n<jt a fact that in 188!(,when the permits covered 151, !)(>!)
.!;alloiis, there were no less than 1 1, MiO gallons of spirits included in those permits, which
would nearh' (i.iuble tht^ quantity ? -It follows that if an appt^tite is whetted it will
desire a greater quantity.
3355t). Jly iiiq)ressi()n is that in 1889, the Governor issued permits to bring in
100 galhuis foi' sale? — 1 do not know.
33557. Have you had an opportunity of comparing the condition of a conmiunity
iMider license witli the condition of a connnunity mider enforced prohibition ?— Not
lieyond the experitMice of the North-west Territories in a modified form.
33558. And your experience was that prohil)ition was beneficial ? T decidedly say
so.
33559. From your experience in your pastoral duties, do you lielieve that to any
'orisidorable extent the drink trade and the drink habit are the causes of crime,
183
Ml
Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba.
iininonility, jMivcrty, domestic troubles, nefflet't (if children uiui neglect nf religion? — I
do believe it so affects certain individuals.
.'{.■jnCO. For these troubles do you think the drink trnftic and habit are to a large
extent resjjonsible? Yes, in my judgment.
RICHMOND SPKNCKR, M.I)., of Brandon, on being duly sworn, dejx.sed as
follows ;—
By Judge MvDomild:
33561. ITow long have j'ou resided in Manitoba? — I have resided hei-e nearly eleven
years.
335(52. Have you resided in Brandon during all that time 1 — Yes.
33r)C3. Did you come here from one of the other provinces?—! came here from
Montreal.
335G4. Have you had any experience in regard to the carrying out of a j)rohibitory
law in any section of the country ? — No ; except in places where I have happened to go.
I have been in the New England States and have noticed its effects there.
33505. Was there a prohibitory law in o])eration when you canu' hei-e? — It was the
permit system that was in vogue.
33560. AVas the liquor trartic piohibited here ?— -Yes : the railroad was opened at
that time, and you could not get licjuor except by permit.
33507. I suppose a man consumed more liquor at that time than now ? — 1 flo not
know.
335()S. Do you know anything about the (piality of the ii(|Uor l)rought in at that
time, whether it was pure or not? — The whisky was pretty gctrwl ; the brandy and wine
were nothing but poor whisky coloured.
33569. Have you observed the opeiation of the license law in this section since it
was in force, and, in your opinion, is it fairly well observed ? -[ think so.
33570. Then 3'ou have not had reason to believe, as a citizen, it is continually
broken .'—No; I think th(! law is pretty well observed.
33571. Would you favour having liquors that are offered for sale frequently
inspected, in order to ascertain that they are pure, and thus afford protection to the con-
sumer ? — Y'^es.
33572. Have you considered the treatment of the persistent drunkard, the man
who is brought ))efore the police court and sent to jail, and reappears regularly? Are
you of the o]iinion that it is lietttM" to continue that .system or to adopt some other .sys-
tem looking to the reformation of the nian and his removal for a time fr<tni temptation ?
— I have n<jt considered that question much, but T should be in favour of liaving some
means ado|)ted whereby that man would nci l)e an expense to the country. It woulii
be well to banisii him in some way, and )'.'rhaps tlie man would not be hurt if he had a
good flogging, for it might do him good.
33573. It has been suggested that the pi'oper course to take in the case of such a
nuiii is to keep licpioi- entirely away from him ; and if it is desirable to keeji it away fiom
him and see that he does not obtain it, at the same time it \Miuld be well to keep it
away from the whole of the connnunity. On the otiier hand it has been suggested that
insteiul of depriving the connnunity of that which the lai'ge proportion of them use in
moderation without any ill effect, it would be well to shut the habitual drunkard away
from the liijuor. Ha\e you studied that <|uesti(in at all? — 1 have not.
33574. The (piestion is whether the remedy is prohibition of the drink or prohibi-
tion of the individual who abuses the article? I am not in faNourof proliibition. 1 am
also not in favour of the Provincial Ii(]Uor license law.
33575. What system do you favour ? I would favour a system of this kind. 1
believe that man is a .social being and he re(|uires something. T believe in what is
Rev. Alex-wdkh UiuiriiAirr.
184
i '■%
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. !894
called tlic German Hystcm, that is ti> yive the coinnioii iicnplea clieaii (liink, such as hifjei'
beer, oi' any ntiier jfood drink, and 1 would give the better classes goofi wine it' tliey
were willing to j)ay for it. You would do more for the cause of tem|ieiance byatlopting
such a measure than in any other way. If there were men who wanted brandy or
some litiuor stronger than those conunonly used, the jn'oper way wouUI be to place a
large license fee on its sale : let them pay oO cents j)er glass for it, but at the same time
let it be go(Kl. Tf the price were 10 or oO cents a glass there would be less drinking,
they would not paj- S'2 or 8-) for a few glasses of brandy.
33-')76. In other words, you would fo'-ce the adoption of such a system us would
encourage the use of light wines, ale and Iiger, in preference to the heavier liipiors?
— Ye.s.
.'^3577. You have said that you are favourable to pi'ohibition as a matter of prin-
ciple. Do you consider it p''acticable ','- - 1 do not.
■■i3578. Do you think it could lie enforced '! — I do not, 1 am sure of it. Men will
have drink if they wish it.
•■•3")79. In ca.se of the enactment of such a prohibitory law, would you favour the
granting of compensation to brewci's and distillers for the plant that would be rendered
useless? — If men invest large sums of money in an industry of that kind which is legiti-
mate, and for carrying on which they are paying a license to the Government, and espe-
cially since tht>y have carried on the business tor a couj)le of years, and they are shut
out from carrying on the business, it being made illegal by the enactment of a general
prohibit<u'y law, I think they should be compensated, becau.se there is no other class
that 1 know of that would be shut off' so (piickly and effectually.
By Her. Dr. McLeod:
•">3o80. Why did men drink more under the permit system than they do no\\ under
licen.se?-- I think the reason is they could not get more than one or two gallons ;it a
time. If they got it they felt that it cost them nothing, and they gathei' ■(! their friends
together and they drank it.
33-')8l. They did not cease, I suppose, until it was all gone? -No.
33.")8"_'. That is the way the Indians do when they get theii- rations cat to reple-
tion and then go hungry for a month? Yes.
;?3583. Is there something in the western atmosphere which makes the \\ hite man
do as the Indian does? — They say there is a great deal of ozone in the air.
33.")84. Do you think there is less drinking under the licensf> .system than under the
permit system? -1 could not tell you that.
.'^.'{.'")8."). Having regard to the difference in population, is there a better condition of
att'airs now under license? — Yes. I I'emember leading some extracts from the oHicial
report of Col. Herchmer, who .says that the condition of things under license is greatly
worse than under the permit system, and that the change has bei'n for the worse since
the licens(> system went into o]ieration. I think that if the license system was properly
looked aftei' it would not be so bad.
3.'<r)8(i. Would not Col. Jiei'chnier and his subordinates have evidence so as to
enable them to arrive at a correct conclusion ( -They are in a sparsely settled district,
and 1 do not think their observations would amount to so much as if the country was
more thickly settlerl.
■'!3.^87. I presume that Col. Herchmer possesses not only his own pei.sonal exjieri-
i-iice but that of his officers, as they act untler his direction ? You must remember that
up in the Territories the inhabitants are largely young men. The members of the
Mounted Police and the men on the ranches are chiefly young men, and they do more
ilriiiking than if they had homes and families. 1 do not think Col. Heirlnner's observa-
tion-- would be worth as much up there as down here.
.■}3.")88. The j)oint he mentioned was that there is more drinking under license than
under tlu> permit system, and I want to know whether you think he is correct in that
opinion oi' not? My imj)ression is that he made a statement about this very town. So
far as Brandon is concerned, it has always been very temperate; there has been very
little drunkenness here, and I have often remarked it. It is a very unusual thing to
see :i drunken man on the streets', except [irobablv this year when there are a great
185
M'
I ;
:; I
1 '
iIk '
P'^
mi^ '',<('
'11
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iimny jmlilie works jiuing on lien- jind ii large iiuinlicr of lufii luivf ooiiie tVoiu tlie other
pi'oviiiee.s and elsewliere. Tliose are tlie (li'inking men rather than our own people.
;{.'tr),M!». You have said that you do not favour prohiijition. Do yc think it is
wrong in principle? — I do.
;{3r)90. I tliink you have said that you would prohibit certain men from getting
drink, and you would put a prohibittiry price on certain drinks? — Yes ; that w<iuld not
he i)rohibition.
.■).'};'5!)1. Would it not be prohibition in principle? — No, not if the prople could pay
tor the drinks.
.1.3.")92. If tiiey cannot pay, are they not prohibited from olitaining them ? — They
car take a tixe c(!nt gla-ss of lager.
.S.'i;")93. You would prohibit men from getting other kinds of li(|Uors and make tliem
drink higer, whether tliey wanted it or not ? — I would not prohii>it the other kinds, Ijut
I would let them have lager and wine at nominal figures. I would not put any heavy
duties on them.
33594. On whi.sky, gin and the like, and brandy, you would put heavy duties? —
Yes.
33.595. Is tliat not really prohibiting a thing that is bad? — It is Ijad only in the
way you take it. It is not the thing itself tliat is bad, but the abuse of it.
.33590. Why not prohibit the man? The article, you say, is not biul ; but the
trouble is owing to man's appetite : why not then prohil)it him? — 1 think it is jiropcr if
a man has an improper appetite for drink, that there should be something done with him.
33597. Hut nothing should be done with the system that creates and assists in
creating the appetite? — Yes.
33595. What should be done with 't ? — If the CJovei'iiment wish to send men to
sucli an institution nti Keeley's Institution they might try it, ])erhaps.
33599. Do you think it is a good thing to keej) established a system that produces
men who have to go Keeley's Institution ? — I do not believe in prohibition, a!id I do
Ijelieve in men getting drinks if they like. I do not belit!ve in prohibiting a nuin and
then having him sneak in by back doors. We would next have our children sneaking
in by back doors and practically stealing it.
33(100. That is your view of the subject? — Yes.
.33601. You would undertake to compel a man, if he wanted lifjuor, to get it under
ditticulties, if facilities were provided to get it in an open fashion ? — T would do some-
thing to prevent the man who thinks he nmst liave it from getting it ; but the man who
desires it for social purposes, I would not i)rohibit.
33G0i!. Then the nuui to whom you refer has to have it because of his appetite, I
suppose ? — Yes. It is generally inherited. Many a man takes liquor all his life, and it
does not harm him.
33G03. You know that the drunkard is an expensive man compared witli the
ordinary drinker? — There are no drunkards to compare with ordinary drinkers.
33004. Then you think only a few are harmetl by (h'ink ? I think so.
33005. I tliink you said you woukl Hog excessive drinkers? — Yes : I would do
something to punish such men. I do not believe in putting them in jail.
.33006. .Supposing the num inherited the ai)petite, would you flog him ? I would
send him to some institution where he could be cared for, at the public expense if
necessat'}'.
.3.3007. Would it not be better to provide facilities for indulging such a man's
a[i|)etite ? Fi ably he would get out of the worlil all the sooner.
3.300H. ' you tliink it would be a good course to adopt ? You have suggested
your answei. :! perhaps that is the one you wanted.
33009. ii y\ punished severely the drunkard, what would you do with the manu-
facturer ot the drink: would you flog him too? No; that would be equivalent to
punishing the (Jovernment.
33010. Who is back of the (Jiovernnient? The people.
33011. Would you flog the people or the man who makes the liquor, tlie man who
has a (Jovernment license to do .so. Is the country right in licensing him ? -I believe so.
Richmond Hpenceh.
186
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
33612. So no man in wrong except tlie man who chinks to pxccss .' Tluit is wiiat I
b«'lit've.
33013. He is the only man who should be (logged ? Yes, and lie should be Ircated
and cared for in some way.
33t)14. In inebi'iate asylums perhaps ? Yes.
3361."). If there were inebriate asylums established, how would you support them--
at the public expense t I supjMJse so.
33t)lG. They would be State institutions? -Yes.
33617. Is it a gtxxl business for the country to enter upon the businessof establish-
ing a traffic which produces persons who have subset|uently to be provided for at the
State's expense? I could not answer that (|uestion.
33<)lf<. l)o you think it would be right to have free sali- of liipior, or do you think
the licenses should be linnted? I would limit the trade.
3361!). In lirandon, why <loyou prohibit thousands of other people from selling
liquor beyond those licen.sed ? I cannot tell you why.
33620. Do you think it is right to do so? 1 consider that the reason fi-ee sale is
prohibited is because it would not be a paying business for those in it.
.33621. I)o you think it right, if they are disposed to take the risk, to prevent them
going into the liusiness? No, I do not think it is.
33622. You think the licen.se law is wrong, becau.sc^ it gives a monopoly here to
I'ight men? I do not think the license law is wt'ong. I think those who have charge of
the license law are considering what is best for the people and for the licensees.
•33023. And not what is best for the connnunity, but simply what is best for tin-
men licens(!d?— I fancy that is it.
33()24. J)o you believe the license law is in the interest of the comnumity ? — I do.
3362"). Then you l)elieve the prohibition of all men in this town., excejjt eight men,
from selling liijuor is in the interest of the connnunity? 1 did not say that.
.3.3626. You say it is in the intei'est of the comnuniity to license eight men. Is it in
the interest of the comaninity to prohibit all others getting licenses? I have told
you that I do not see any rea.son why they should not all ha\-e licenses, if the business
would ])ay.
.3.3()27. Then it is amattei'o'^ pecuniary consideration ? I am ii(>t suHicieiitly posted
on the tinancial side of the (juestion to be able to answer that. It is a (pn-stion of
money I think.
33028. Is it not a (piestion of right.' Assume that we wei'c all living in Itrandon:
two of us get licenses, and the rest of us, the town declared, should not have licenses.
Would that be right ? Should we not have the right to engage in the business, if we
chose to do so, and take our own risk of making profit or loss .' -Yes, if you could get
the license.
3.3629. liut the cit}' says you shall not have license. Now, what right has the city
In say that? — I could not pretend to answer that (juestion.
33630. You are a practicing physician ? Yes.
3.36.31. D(t you believe total abstinence is injui'ious oi' benelicial to man ? — I Indieve
rlie man who does not drink at all is the best man.
£1/ Judge MeDoruild :
.33032. Taking the (juestion asked by IJev. Dr. .Meljeod ;is to the licensing of the
Uatlic, which makes men Ix'come di'unkards : is it the drink or their own act that makes
tliem become drunkards? — It is their own act.
33633. I underst md your view of [)rohibition to be this : that e\en if there were
iiip legalized traffic, jjcople would still get liquor to drink 1 Yes, they would get it.
3363-t. And if j)ersons choose to become drunkards, they will become so whether
there is a drink traffic or not?--I think persons have got li(|Uor ever siiice Lot got drunk.
Uy Rev. Dr. McLeod •
3.3635. Do you think it well to follow his (!xami>le? No person detests di-unken-
ni'ss )nore than I do.
J8T
^w^
!:■
^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
Rkv. S. I)ANI KL8, of liraiulun, on l)ciiii; duly sworn, dt'iioscd as follows : —
//// ,lii(l(i<' Mrlhniiihl :
WWdtWa. To wliJit dcMoiniiiatioii do you Im'Ioii;^; .' I aui a Minister of tln' MetJuMlist
Cliui'ch of C!aiia(la.
.'i.'JG.'J". W't' lia\<' tilt' (lclivt>raiu'(' of your Cliurcli already ;,'iveii us in Montreal, as
adopted bj' the (Jenerai (lonference in 18!)U. As a minister of that ehureli, do you oon-
<'ur in till- deliverance of the (ieneral Clonferenee ? 1 do.
;{.'{G;5H. Are you favouralile to the total prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — I am.
SlUl.'J'.t. ^'ou considci' it advisable that we sliould have [ii'ohibition ? I do.
.'{.'{GIO. Would you have it of a jirovineial <»r national c-liaraeter, for the province
in which you reside or foi' tlio Dominion at lar<;e? -1 should like to see a Dominion Act ;
if that was not practicable, I should lik«s to see a Provincial Act.
.'l.Sdll. Dave you considered the practic-ability of tlie enforcement of such a law? —
I have f{iven it sonu' thou;;iit.
.'53()42. \\'itli wiiat I'esuU ! -1 do not see wliy we could not enforce such an enactment.
;}.'?()43. Do y(ai believe anything would depend (ii local circumstances and the pub-
lic sentiment of the locality 1 -Yes, to .some e.xttuit.
.■?.'i(>4 1. .Tud<;inj; from what y(ai know of the province, what do you believe the sen-
timent would l)e ? — J ix'lieve the propctnderanceof public sentiment to be most decidedly
in favour of such a law.
;^'5()4r). Have you considered the t|uestion of granting compensation to brewers and
distillers for loss of plant, in case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law ? — I
have gi\-en it some thought.
U."U)IG. With what result .'- I cannot at all agree with the principle of conipensati')n
as being just, or do I think it .should be gi\en.
.'5."{()47. Dave you ever lived in a prohibitory country or State?- I lived three years
in Ilegina under the permit system.
;?:1G4S. During what years ? During 1885, 1887, and 188S».
.'i3G4i). Was that befon; the changes were made that the foi'inei- witness, liev. Mr.
rniuhart, s|)oke of in regard to the extension of the jiennit sj-stem, or was it after that
extension was made ? — It was before the extension to the five per cent beer, and also a
few months subsequently.
.33G.")0. How did ]>rohibition wnrk in the North-west Territories ?— I found it work
very well.
.■'>3Gi51. Was there any .sale for beverage i)urposes? — There may have Ijeen .some,
but it did not come undt;r my personal knowledge.
3;5Gr)2. You never saw the efl'ects of it? -No.
33653. You Relieve, then, that the sale was small ? — Yes, so far as my ol)servation
■vvas concerned.
■33G54. Do you think that there was any trouble in regard to smuggling licjuors into
the North-west Territories from outside? — T think occasionally there were cases, one or
two, during three years.
3.'iG55. Do you mean of seizures made ? — Yes, I think I rememlrer two cases.
.'i3G5G. 1 understood that the Mounted Police were there to prevent liquor entering
the Territories 1 — Yes.
33657. That it was their duty to (Muleavour to enforce the prohibitoi'v law? — Yes,
33658. Wiis the force, as a whole, very vigilant ? — I think so.
33G5'.). Have you had any experience of the Territories since the change in the law ?
— Not since the license law came into force.
33GG0. Have you observed tlu; working of the license law in Brandon? — 1 have not
been long in Jirandon, only since July. Betoie that 1 wius at Portage la Prairie.
33661. Was the license law in force at Portage la Prairie? — Yes.
33662. How was it observed ?- -It wfus not very well observed during my time.
33G()3. What was the dirHeulty ? — There were breaches of the law.
33GG4. Was there sale during prohibited hours ? — Yes ; they had a number of con-
victions for breaches of the Act during my time.
.33(165. Was thei'e much illicit sale of li(iuoi' there? — I am not prepared to say.
Hkv. S. Danielh.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
•I'vatioii
liui's into
(Hit' "I'
Mitcnng
-Yes.
hu' law ?
Iiavp not
it' Cllll-
.ay.
\j. V. llUdHI LL, ot' Braiiiloii, •lniiiiiulist.oM Iw-ing duly sworii. (lr|>iisc(| ^s t'ullDws : —
Hi/ Jiulije Mi'Doniihl :
'XM\W\. What is your (H-cupatiuii .' I am <iii tlic (■(litoi'ial statl'iit' llif Mnil.
'.VMM'u . liiivv loii;; liavt- ynu resided in liranduM .' (Mily a t'ew innntlis this time.
.■5:5f)tiS. IIiiw jun;,' have ynu lived in .Maiiitoha ,' -I came to Manilnlia in I S7'_',t wentv
v«'ars a<;i>. and witli tlie e.xer|)tion ot' oikv hv twice Kiiinu home to Kii^land, I have been
ahnost cunstantiv ii
M
iintt
la and the Teffitifries since that vear.
."{.'UJCll. In what |iai'ts ot' Manitoi>a ! W'lien I first came to .Manitoba I lived at
Cul<;ai'y. Then 1 was on the C-innmission a|i|)i)inte(i to estahiish the lionndarv between
'he I'nited States and l$fiiish Possessions. Then I was out in the Noftl
.t .1
in-nii'
the time of tlu' Nofth-west I'olit
I
was there jirior to the arriva
I ot' t
\v rej^ular force,
d after they came out I remained until IMSi*. Then I went to lvii_'lanil, came out
nil, reniaineil in \N iiinijiei; some time, and sinci
then I have lieeii in Manitoba all th
time, althoui^h i was occasionally out of it for short |ieiiods.
.'5."{ti70. In what |iart>i of the North-west Territories have you lived.' In (."alyarv
and Fort MacleotI |iiincipally.
.'i^JtlTI. When you were li\ iiit; in the North-west was there a |irohil)itoi v enactmi-nt
in force? — It was in force.
.'iSt')?!.'. How was the law enforced \ It was not enforced at ,ili, not to any i;ical
e.\t»'nt, at all (neiits.
,■{,'{(■> 7 •"'>. Were into.vicatini;- b"verat;es obtaiiiiible .' Yes. in lari;e i|uaiit ities.
:i;5t)74. Of what iiuality / -Of a very inftirior (|uality.
.■$.'5t)7o. Was there much li(|uor consumed : was it consumed to excess.' (aiiisump-
tioii to excess occurred in this way : Whenever what was called a carno arrived,
it was the occasion for a diunk. Then the ])eriiiits were drawn out so t li;it they covered
any liquor for a sutKeient ionj;tli of time until some one else had siiiiij,'ixled in a caiLto.
uor was used to excess when
.■<.'}()7*>. So while there were intervals of abstinence, liiji
cari^oes arrived .' — When it did come it was used to excess, decidedlv.
i.S()77. Was it all brought in bv sniuii'ders from across the boimdarv lint
Nearlv
ill of it.
That
befo
'ore railway construction
It
k
was loiiy; [ireceilinif the railway
th
It was almost previous to the permit system : I am speakini; ni>vv of 1S77.
i{.'Jl)7y. What was the condititin t)f things after the permit .system
came m
was
very much the same. If a man had a permit for tive gallons of whisky all his friends
caUed on him, and there was what was caUed in that country a general jamboree until
the litpior was h'nished. The permit .system was no better than the old system, with the
exception of this, that the (iitxcrnment derivfti a revenue from it.
.■5."$Gf<0. l>o you know whether the liiiuor that was to be had under tiie |>eruiit
-ystem was inferior in (pialitv to that brought in by smugglers .'^ It was of a better
i|ualitv than what was smuggled, but it was not of really good i|uality until later years.
< Iriuinallv it was l)rou<'
lit from Fort Mentoii. AFonta
na.
3."i<iSl. FCave vou been in the North-west Territtiries since th
into force? Ntit since the license svsteiii came into force.
iceiise system caUK*
.•5682. AV
ere VI ai
there at all while the in
creased permit system was in operation
:i.'?()8.'i. Was more lii|Uor brought in .' Yc-.
.■{3()S4. Are vou able to sav whether the bringing in of that liiiuor under the in-
reased iierinit system
led to
:0 a diminution in smii
;gli
I'
I think it did.
•■>."U)8 b(. Was the li(|uttr of l)ettei' tpiality \ Decidedly after the railway was liuilt.
.S.'{r)8."). Did you notice whether there was more drunkenness aftei
(Is than then
.1 i
lail lieen
before .' — No, I do not think there was any more.
.■{:<6sr). Did yt)U see anything of the working of the tive pei- cent system. I refer
to beer containing tivt^ per cent of alcohol \ — -Yes : that was w hat the law allowed us to
liave. r flo not think if the beer liad been tested it wttuld have been found to contain
Mioic than five per cent of alcohol, although something of a medicinal nature was jiut
into it.
189
■^^)
1 ! '■
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{.■i(iS7. Fntiii wliiit yiiu Imvo seen iil' tin; witrkiii;; ot" a lii-ciiHc liiw in Miiiiitoliii, iiiul
t'r<ini what you liavc simmi ot" the woi'kiiiy of |iroliil)itioii in the Norlli-Wfst Tcri'itoi'ics,
\vlii<-li ill your o|iiiiioh is prctVi-aldi- .' As |iroliil>itioii was carrifd on in tin- 'rcrritori<>s a
licrnsf law is [U'cfi'iahh', iM'causc the i>roliiliitory law was not cnforcfd in the .slij{ht('st
(lf;,'i'fi'. Of roui-sc an occasional st-izurt' was made, hut for one sei/ur»> made there wei'e
ten men sclliii;,' ille;;ally.
li.'K'iScS. Knim what you lia\'e seen of prohibition ami fi'oni what you have Htudied, do
you think it is praetieahle to enforcea ^(eneral prohil>it<iry law in any country? -1 think
that is very hard to say. It woidd lie a ^<mmI thini; if it could he enforced, hut I do
not helievc in |iroliihition unless strictly enforced. If it were strictly enforced, I would
thurou;,'iily heli«;ve in it.
.'{.'{(isy. You are doul>tle.s8 aware thiit this Commission ischarjjed with the duty of
<'onsi(h'rin;; the i|Uestion from the standpoint of the whole of the country, and that this
insfstitjation has resjiect to the Mominion from oceati to ocean. Taking' the Maritime
Provinces, with their lar;;(; sea coast, and Quehec, witii the (St. liawi'ence running; up
into it, and the country west with its proximity to the United States, and British
Cohimhia, facint? on the Pacitic Ocean, and all the surroundings, how do you think it
would he possible to enforce |irohihition in Canachif -I woidd favour it, if it were
jjracticahle.
.'13<i!tO. Do you think it would he practicable? — 1 am really afi'aif I it would noi b ,
with such sui'rounilin;,'s. [ do not think it would he practicable at all. No doubt a
proliihitory law miyht h«^ enforced somewhat, but liquor would always lie hrou^dit into
the country, as was the case in theTerritories.
.l.Ui'.H. ])o you know whether there was illicit distilling to any <{r«'at extent I — No.
H."{(')Ol*. in the case of the enactment of a "general pi'ohihitory law, prohibiting the
manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liipiors foi' beverage purposes, do you
think the distillers and brewers should he remunerated for loss of plant? — Yes, I think
.so ; r think it would only be just.
.'{.■{()!».'{. 1 understand that you have lived in the old country as well as here? — Yes.
;5.'{()D4. From your oh.servation and study, what is the eti'ect upon a community of
having a law upon the statute-book, such as a prohibitory law, that is Hagrantly and
constantly violated ? — I think the tendency is for evil.
33095. You do not consider it an evil ? —I would not consider it of any g(MKl to the
country, bticause it would he settling an exceptionally bad example to the jieople.
3309'J. Has the result of youi' observation and experience been that this (|uestion
differs from all other (juestions that occupy the attention of legislative bcKiies regardi'ig
the effect which ])uhlic sentiment has on it? — Y'^es, decidedly so.
33697. Frtjm youi' exjierience, are there any suggestions you could offer to the
Commission regai'ding amendments to the law respecting the tralKc as at present con-
ductefl under the license law, either in the direction of high license or the lindtation of
the number of places where licpioi- is .sold, or in regard to a rigid inspection of the liquor
or anything of that kind ? — I wi .ild not like to make any suggestions without giving
more consideration to the subject ; but 1 think in all ca.ses a high license should be
charged, and I am also of the opinion that a very large numhei' of the licensed places
should he done away with, and that we should endeavour to t>htaiii a better class of
licensees.
3.'i()98. Supposing one or thi> other had to be done away with, the hotel bar or the
.saloon bar, which in the interest of the conununit}' should he removed? — I should say
the saloon bar.
33>")99. Have you ever considered the c|uestion of the treatment of the persistent
<lrunkard, the man who is up liefore the Police Coui't, is sent to jail and appears again
and again : whether it is better to have him treated as now under the law by sending him
to jail for short term.s, or whether it would not be better to shut him up for a length of
time with a view to his reformation, if ])o.ssible, at all events so that he may he kept
fr(un the evils of drunkenness? — 1 think the man who is constantly arrested foi- being
drunk and who is repeatedly serving shoi't terms of imprisonment, varying from one
month in length, is lowered l)y the punishment he I'eceives. Tf he has served two or
three months in prison, he is lowered in his own estimation Ity the very fact of being
L. F. HUGUILL.
190
ly iiiul
to tlit>
to thi'
lit C()l>-
itioii of
e litiuor
HI 1(1 l»'
flass of
or the
mid say
rsistt'iit
ajiiiiii
iiig liiiii
tn^'lh of
(be kept
\r beinj,'
loiii oue
two or
|)£ being
Liquor Trafflc — Manitoba.
sxiit to jail foi'tliat ofrciu'f. If it wt-re ]iossililt', iristrail of iia\in;; (liat man I'oiniiiitted
to jail, |iuiiisii liiiii by piittiiii; liiin in an inebriate asylum or institution of that kind, in
uliicli lie eould .s|M-nd a eertain ien;;tli of tiini\ [t nii^'lit lead to his reformation.
."(.nyiH). Have you eoiisidered tin- i|tit'Hlinii cif intriHlucin;; liylit wines in jilari' of
Iifa\ier li<|Uors fur u'eneral use! It a|>)>e,'iis in mr tlial in old counti'ies like Kni;land
and continental countries like I'ranec, tliei'c is very mucli less driinkciniess tlian in
countries where the hea\ ier li(|Uor.s are used. In Kranee li>;ht wiiu's are used altogether.
'J'he taste for li)j;ht wines is an educated tasie, and of course it takes .snme lime to jjet
lieopie to drink them. Whether you could !.'et men who drink whisky to drink them,
I do not know. It miuht lie ditlicult, if not im[H)ssible.
/i> h''r. I>r. MrL-uil:
.■<;<7Ul. I think you said that you are connected with a newspaper .' Yes.
.'i.'t'O'J. Have you been lorn,' in I'l'andon in connection with a newspa]ier .' As I
said before, 1 have not been lonj,' in llrandon (his time, but 1 have been here befuri-
this. I ha\e only been hi-re this time two oi- tiu'ee months.
."•.■{7li."(. Then you are not a permanent citizen? No; I ha\enot been here as a
permanent citizen for any len;;th of time
H.'ITOI. Were you in another part of .Nfanitoba before yuu came here '. Yes.
.■{.'?7l)"i. innnediately before comin;; here '. No ; I was in Winnipej; for tinee
years.
iKb'Ot). Were you connected with the press there ; No; I was with the Canadian
Pacitic Railway.
.'{•'$707. You have said that in the Territories [)rohibition was not enforced at all .'
Was that because of the peculiar way in which the permit system was administered? —
When I said prohibition was not enforcetl at all, ! meant to I'cfer to the time previous
to the permit system, when 1 was tirst at Foit MacleiKl. There was no permit system.
Whisky was sraugj^lt^d in from Fort Benton. Then Colonel McLcikI, Commissioner of
the North-west Mounted Police, receiveil an ordei- from the (ioverinnent that he
could issue permits to a limited extent, and afterwards (iovernor Ijaird issued peiniits
when he came into the country,
.■i.'i70S. Y^tu were in the country, then, during (!o\ernia' bainl's administration /
—Yes.
.■b'570'.l. Where were the headtpiartei's of the ({overnment at that time ! -At Prince
Albert.
.■5.'57IO. Mow long at;o was that? I think it was in 1^77 and l.*<7S. I saw
Lieutenant-( iovernor Laird at thi' time of the ti'eaty making with the IMackfeet Indians
in 1S77.
|{."?711. That was jjrevious to the permit system, 1 suppose I Y^'s, you could not
e\en get a permit; but [trevious to the aT'i-ival of tJovernor F^iird, Colonel McLeod was
acting Lieutenant-(}o\ernor of the Territories.
.■{.■i7lL'. How long prior to the time that permits were issued was prohibition
Mipposeil to l>e in force in the Territories? — From the ari-ival of the Mounted Police.
When they arrived at Foi-t Macleod a prohibitory law was established.
.'?-i7l-'). Ill what year was that? -1 think it was in the fail of |.*<71, when the
North-west Mounted Police arrived at iMU't Macleod : and from that timi' up to about
llie fall of l!^7t), or 1S77, the jiermit system was in existence, and you could get
permits from (iovernor Laird.
.■)."?711. When permits were issued, I suppose liijuor came in under pern\its ,' — Yes,
and litpuir was sold not only for medicinal purposes, as was supposcfl to be the case.
;?."?7ir). In Colonel Herclimer's report, there is a statement that if prohibition were
to be etifoiced, the ]ieiinit system would eithei- have to be abolished oi' ditlerently
uliuinistt^red, and there needed to be removed certain technicalities that m.ide the
eiitiircement of the law ditlicult. Had you ri-ason to believe that any good at all was
ttl'ected by the j);-ohibitory law? — Not in the North-west Territories.
.■>;17H). Was that because of non-enforcement? — Y''es.
•■i;5717. Do you l)elie\e that if the law had been enforced rigorously, it would have
iiicomplished good in certain sections? — Decidedly so.
191
Liquor Tiafflc — Miinitoba.
H
.'{."I"!'*, h'l >"U think (•nt'iirct'iiiciil was ixactiralilc ' 'I'Ihti' wa> im nu'iiot •■tl'oit
iiiiulr. It n.ulfl Imnlly U- ciiforrwl in sucli a ('outitrv. .M<'ii could i-hwh tlif liri** at
Flirt ll<-iiti>ii, atxl it WKulW !»■ iicfi'SHarv to l<t't'|i n \cry lar^''' t'ui-cc almii.' tlu' line to stop
any iiifii cms-iii;.'. At tliat tiini- tlic Nurtli-west .Mi.imltii I'.ilii.- hail mil that tiill
itfi|iiaiiitaiiri- with ilu' ('■iiiiitiv ami thi' |ii-n|i|i' thi'v imw |ii>ssi'~.s.
.'(;(7l'.l. S|H-akiii;; alMiiit tlii'law l>i'iii;i,' lla;;i-aiill\ \ inlatril aiiii tin- liail i-ll'i'i'ls ' whirh
\Vi<ul<! it U" iH-lttT to llo, n'|ical ilu- law nf set alMHit rllt'iilrili;; It '. It it Wfli' |iiis>,ili|i- to
i'iit"iiiT»' it, I winijil (Ti'taiiily I'lit'ofi'i- it.
•'l"{7-0. Ill) you think it |iossilili' to i-nfot'Cf :> |ii'iiliihitiii-v law uikIit an\' I'ii'iuin-
staiK'i-s ' I mull! hii'illy answer that ijui'stion.
.■{.■J7'_'l. I »ii yiiu say it is iiii|.iissil)|c nr' ilitUriilt ! I think it is m-iv ilillirult imli'i'il.
•'l-'tT'-'l.'. I>'i you iM'lii'M- that it' surh a law wi-if iMit'oiiTil, tin- rt'sults wuulil in-
^lMnl '. I>cfii|fi||y.
H'M'l'A. |)oy<iu think thi- tarl tiiat public st'ntiiiitMit i'\|iii'ssc(i itsrlt' as favoui'alili' in
sufh a law as it has liorif in thi' fi'ccnt pli-hisriti'. wnuM nuiki- it iiiofi' rasv to rntorri' it
in thf rouiiti'v .' No; I llo not think that that votr, as a \otf, is uni' on w hii-h anv IhhIv
coulii i'ca.soii anything'.
.■{.■{7l.M-*_'"i. How llo yiiu arroiint t'or that .' It was a politiral ny. anil a ;.'irai many
jH-opU' tlu'i'i't'ori- vottMl that way. I will t«>il you an iiiriilfnt whirh will illnstiati' my
iili-a of till- whole thin:,', as well as I can illustfate it. 'I'he ease was at • >ak Like nut
lont' au'ii. 'I'hefe is a man thei'e who hulils a very ;;oikI position in a larite I'ompany in
this eiiunttv. I askeil him how he t'elt ahout the eleetion. Me tolil me he \oteil t'ur
prohihition. I was rathei' astonisheil at that statement, itnil 1 saiil ; " Why iliil you
vote tor proliiliition, " especially when F kiunv hi' was a man who iloes not ;;o in t'or
prohiliitiiin. ami who reailily takes his liipmr. lie saiil : '' i am in reeeipt of a ^hhI
salary. Si. "lU |ier month, hut I ean make a i,'reat ileal more in a piohihition eountry hy
s«'lliii>; liipior : that is why F \oleil for it. "
.■{.■J7'Jt). Is hi' a .sample of a lartje miinlier of tlie people .' 1 do not know, liut that
is w hat he .said.
•■[•■{7l!7. HaM' yfiu noticeil whether the lieenseil men in the husiness in Maiiitoha
are all of them, or larjiely fa\ouralile to the proliiliition inoxement .' I hanlly faney they
woulil Ih'. hut I eannot speak for them as a lioily, for I ilo not know many of them.
;5.'t7'_'.''. I >o you think the man to whom you have referrcil represent.s tin- sentiment
of a lar;.'e iiumiMM' of tile people who voted for prohihitioii at the recent election .' -I
think there were a larife number of the people in a similar position.
.'J.'t7'_".i. Do you think that he is a fair representative of l'l',('"U peojile ! — I would
not say that.
.■5.'{73ti. Vol! do not think that '22,000 men, if proliiliition were |iassed, would 1:0
into the illicit business and sell ' -I do not think that numljei' would ;;o into the busi-
ness, but some of them mii;ht fio so.
.■5.'57.'U. A witness in Winnipeg stated that a great many people \<.it>fl foi' prohibi-
tion for fun .' I do not see what fun there would be in voting for it.
.■{.■>7;ll.'. Then it would lie ditlicult to account for it, from your jmint of Mew ; — Yes,
Itecause F know men who \oted for it, and who eveiy day of their !m s drink sm.ie
alcoholic liijuoi'.
.■i:!7-'i-'!. Do you think that if a man votes for prohibition, and yet is in the habit of
ilrinkin<_'. he iIiki-s not mean to vote that way? — I do not think I would say that.
Although F am not a temiieiance man, at the same time F would Mite for proliiliition if
it coulfl Ix' strictly enforced.
H:{7"U. Then you believe that if it could be enforced, it would do giMKH — F do.
'■\'M'.ir). Do you think it is worth trying as an ex]iorimeiit '.- You will have to make
a better experiment of it than was made in the North-west Territories.
;>."{7''{li. F)o you think that was a fair experiment ! — Ft was not a fair ex])eriiuem.
/ii/ Judge McDonald :
:\:\~.\~. I understand that you are favourable to prohibition as a luinciple, liut that
you votetl against it because you considered it impracticable. May there not have Ijeen
L. F. HViiHlLL.
192
SVHUUI
jiri'hi^ii-
h— Yes,
Ik sui.ie
Iv thiit.
l)itioii if
|(lu.
IllKMlt.
hut that
Ive been
67 Victoria.
tScshional Fajwrs (No. 21.)
A. 18U4
iimiiv |«'ip|i|f « hii Mitol fill- It m tlic tiiiif, LM'lit'\ inj; that ii wiiuld (In iiwiiv wiili iliuiikcii-
tU'H« I Y»'S.
.'M7't'<. hut lint liii\ iriii IiikI your cxjwi'it'iict' iiH to the practii'iiWility of aiiv jn'olii-
liitoi-y liiw, tlifv wfir imi miidi'il ii.«, yuii wfi'c in yi\ iii^' tlicir vnics .' -TliiU was vhi'v
liciH'i a
llv til
III/ /{',: Ih. M<l.,,„l
'.\:\1'M), Is ili'iiiikcMii'>ss til)- only rxil I't'siiltiii^ from tlir IJi|Uor tradr \ I tliink that
In tlif (lirci't i'mI, Imi tin-. • art' a lai;/i' iiuiiiImt of evils ai'isini; fimn ii iri<iiifctly.
•■{;57M>. A-^ a iii'W spapff iiiati. Iia\c yon hail a lai^i' i'.\|it'iii'iii'i' .' i lia\i' iml.
.■|."17ll. I toi-s ihf lji|iior iijuli- alli'ct tiailf iiiclusiiifs. ihimioiisjy m iM-nclirialiy f —
l,i(|iior iiM'd to I'xct'ss must do iiijuiv.
Mil" ll'. I <lo not nii'aii till' use of il to cxcr'ss, liut in ii';;ai'd lo ni'iinaj Itusincss.
What <'Hi'rt iliM's it huNf on iho •^cnri'al liiisiMt'ss of th<' comiiniiiily ' I do imi think il
lias anx' i.'uod clVfct.
I). Will II. t'OOl'KU. of r.iaiidoii. JMiiisl.T anil inaiia^'.T of the l''icriiolil Loan
and Sa\iiii;s ('om)ianv, on lit-iiii; duly swi.f . di'|>iiscd as follows ;• —
/>'// Jiiilijr Mr Ihiiinhl :
'.V.'t'i \'.\. Mow loni; haxi'you liscd in Manitolia .' Ahout It-n vears, .sinre I (rcrniln'i',
ISSl.
'■V-\~ \ I. Fioni « hat |iaii of Canada did you iMinu- .' l'"i'oui Lindsay, in tin' I'ount v of
Nictoiia.
.').'{7l"i. Havcyou notict'd, sinui' you hase lived in Ih'andon, any change in the sociiil
customs of the I |>le in regard to the use of inloxieat ing l)e\er'ai;es ? I do not see \eiv
nuich change.
.■i:i74ti. When you came here what system in regaid to dealing with the lii|Uor
iillestion was in foi'ce .' I believe there were no licenses in foice \v hen I came liel'elirst.
.■t.'i7 17. WiLs li(|'ior sold '. ~\ Indieve it was. I do not know .mything in regaiil to
tills matter from actual experience.
.'i;i71'^. I lave you observed anything of the license law. whether it is rcasonabl\-
well obserNt'(l oi' not ? — It is reasonably enforced in the city here, as well as you might
expect to see it, I do not think it is very thoroughly enforced. I am not nciv much
ill !i position to say anything about l\w sale, ai* I do not go much round lintels, and
therefore catinot speak of illicit .sale tluring prohibited hours.
.'I.S749. |)o vou know whetiier any illicit sale takes place? — i belie\e there is some.
:!:{7r)0. In the city? Ye.s, at the taverns.
.■{.■i7-"')l. Have you considered the treatment of the persistent drunkard '. Nottoanv
extent. I have not given that matter much thought, and I am not able to express aiiv
iiiilgmeiit on it.
'.S'.\~~yl. Ha\i' vou considered the (|uestion of encouraging the use of light wines and
lieers in |>reference to the heavier liipiors, especially spirits I \ have thought of that
matter to some extent. My opinion would be that it would only encourage the use of
strung liipiors ; I think it would lead to that,
.'<.'57-")S, Then you do not think any advantage is to be gained by that cluiiige / —
Nil, nothing is to be jiained by that at all.
'X.\'t^)\. Have you had any experience of prohil)ition '. Xo.
!$.'i75."). Have you considered and studied the subject of prohibition ? I have studied
il. to some extent.
.'J;57")W. Then you are hardly in a position to express an opinion as to its workings?
— 1 do no«- see wliy such a law could not be enforced as well as any ot!;er law.
;?."57")7. Have you considered the ([uestion of granting compen.sation to brewers and
ilisiillers for the loss of their plant and nuichinery in the event of the enaetiiient of a
193
•21 13**
,
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
geiici'iil ])i\)liil)it(iiy law ? — That is a very debatable subjeetr aiui I have not fiirnu'd a
stniiif; (i|)inii>ii on it. Lookii.;^ at it from my present standpoint, T do not feel inelined
to eomjiensate tliem to any lai'j^e extent.
n>/ /iVc. Dr. McImuI:
.'i."?7r)H. I undei'stand that you are Mana<;ei' of a Loan Association? — Yes.
.■J.'J75y. Krom yoiif experience as Mana^'er of a [ioan Company, are you able to say
what effect the drink habit and the di'ink tratiic iiave on your loan business / — Thay
certainly iia\-e a %ery bad eflect.
.'{.'i7(J0. l)o you find that borrowers who lia\e the drink habit are not as likely to
pay the loans as total abstaintirs? — W'e certainly find that to a very large extent.
Farmers who are heavy on drink {.generally ijo to the wall.
.■{.'{"<) 1. They nejilect their business? -Yes.
.S,'{7()2. Have you had experience of that kind in Manitoba? — I iiave had some, but
I ha\e not had so many cases in Manitoba as in (Ontario.
.S.'J7G.S. Is the drink halnt very prevalent anions the farmers in Manitoba? — In
some localities it is and in other localities it is not.
.■^■57()4. Then it differs accordint; to localities? — Yes.
3.'<7f)o. i understand you have noticed in Ontario that the drink trade and the
(h'ink habit have affected injuriously your business? — Yes.
Bij Jitdyi' McDonald :
337(1(). Have you suffered any loss fi'om drunkenness -I refer to the operations of
voui- company in Manitoba ?-—! cannot say that we have suffered any particular los.s.
We liavt> had to take land and have .sold it afterwards to other parties. I should not
like to attribute the cause always to (hnnikenness, but it was an element in the matter.
% Jtev. Dr. McLeod:
.■{.■57()7. T suppose the Loan Company is not really the loser, but it is the liorrower
who is the loser, bi>cause the Loan Company generally tries to cover itself fi-oni loss?--
We geiKM'ally try to cover ourselves.
;(.H7()'^. lUit you say that you have had to take l.intis ? — Yes, \j'rv fivipientlv.
By Jiulyc Mr Donald :
33769. bi cases of people who do not drink? — We have.
By Rev. Dr. Mr Lead :
33770. How lar;y^e a jiroportion of the ca.sesdo drink?- I do not keep any statistics.
3377L We had the ^[aiia<i;er of a similar n)mj>any in the Maritime Pro\ inces who
made a statement from his rect)rd / — I keep no record of statistics of that kin<i.
David H. Cooper.
194
iicUued
B to say
I— Thsy
likely to
extent.
ame, but
)ba]— Ii»
aiu
1 the.
•rations of
.•ular loss.
;liould not
lie matter.
,. li(>n'o\ver
■mil loss'!--
itlv.
statistics,
aiices who
.1.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
s
•m
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
Hew ALEXANDER H. CAMEH«JN, ut' Brandon, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
By Judge McDonald : ,
M;?79"). How long have you I'esided in Brandon? — Only a few niontlis.
.■{.■{7y(). With what denomination aiv you connected? — I am a niinistei' of the
Preshyterian Church in Canada.
•■{.'5797. How long have you lived in Manitoba I — Eleven yeai's.
.■{.'5798. Have you ever resided in the North-west Territories? — Yes, for two years.
I was in charge o*' the missi<jns between Calgary and llevelstfike.
;{:{799. Duiing what vears/— 1H8() to 1><88.
th
-Y<
:{:?8U0. Was a prohibitory law in force in tiie Nortli-West Territ«
with the permit system.
.■}."?801. Did the permit system u]) to "that time include 4 })er cent beei"? — I really
cannot say.
.■$380:.'. But vou were there in 1880 and 1888? — Four per cent beer came in, I
believe, in 1888.
.■?:580."{. What law was in force in iievelstoke? — That was in British Columbia.
:)3804. Wius the license law in force ?— Yes ; T made Donald my headipiarters.
.'?.'?8Co. Was there a license law in force in Donald? — Yes, high license.
.■{.S80(>. Were there many hotels selling? -There were about -W i)lRces ; Ki j>laces
under license ;vnd 14 unlicensed.
.'5.'5807. Was that wliile the construction of the Canadian Pacific Bailway was going
forward ? — It was later. It was at the time of the construction of the aiow-shedsat th(^
finishing up of the work, fnmi 188("- to 1888.
.■5;i808. Was th(> population of the place a fluctuating one? It was H actuating j
the ])opulation was about ."JOO.
.■{;{809. What is the condition of Donald now? — It is nmch better.
.■}3810. Has the population diminished ?— In 1888 when I came east there was a
population of l'.")0.
■5;{811. Are there many licensi^d hotels there now ? —Yes.
.'5.'$812. How many? I understood that they were to be reduced to three. 1 think,
however, that the numbei- was irduced to four.
;?;{813. At Re velstoke, how many were there? — There wer(! two between Donald
and lievelstoke, and T think liipior was sold at almost every jilace there.
.■?.'{814. What was the character of the li(|uui- sold? -It was spoken of as bad.
:i.S81."). Were you at I'anti too? - Yes.
.■{.'?81G. How did you lind the liquor there? They had |)retty good ale there.
.{3817. How was it at Calgary? — Tt was not in my district.
.■};{818. Was nmch li(|Uiii' sold at I5antl'? — Yes; I believe one man was arrested
selling li((Uor thei'e and was tind !?1")U or about that amount. Liciuor was found in
jiossession, l)ut it was proxcd that it iiad been ijrought in on a permit.
:!;{8 lit. Was he selling it? Yes.
.i;{8L'0. Had men the right to sell under
sehes when arrested.
•'{.'i8"_M. I supjiose the licpior ciiulil not l)t
could not be tined.
.■!;}8l''_'. What class of men were at Donald and Revelstoki' in those times/ — They
were largely railway men woi'king in the I'ound-house, on construction or on tiie bridges.
.■{.■{8l'3. What kind of people were engaged? Were they strangers who came in for
the tinu' being, or were they a portion nf tlu^ regulai' inhabitants nf tht
was during construction time and you might call it a "slab-town."
.■i.'!8L'4. 1 suppose strangers arrivefl in considerable numbers' Y'e.s,
fi'rent jiroxinces, some even from my native province. Nova Scotia.
.'{.■{8".'). J>id any come in from • e Tnited States? — Not that 1 know of,
.■{•■58'J(). Did they apj)ear to be all Canadians? — Y'es.
Rev. Ale.x.wijeu H. Cameuon.
196
for
his
a permit? No; but they protected t hem-
taken from them? Quite so, and they
' country (
from the
it
dif-
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■5."iS27. Was selling li(iuor all the husiiifss tliev had ? -l may say llii'i't- was one
thing there that would nut ije authorized hy any other (ioxcrnnient .i vai'iety hall, regu-
larly licensed hy ih;' British Columbia (jovernnient.
3.'J82S. Was there an immoral performance? That is what it I'eally covered.
3382!). Was there no jiolice supervision ? — I should have judged it better to ha\e
had one decent and i-espectable pla(;e rather than halt" a do/en bad ones.
.■>38.'{0. You mean that it would have been bettei' to have had one I'egularly licensed
house under the control of the authorities, rather than a number of uidieensefl ones?
338."n. At J}anff, which was under the prohibitory law of the North-west Tei'ri-
tories, did a better condition of things ])revail ? — Very much bettei'. At that timi Manft'
I veiy satisfaetorv state ; tl
lere was no iKiuor .so
)ld
The Superintendent was veiv strict, and he enforced th(^ law.
.S3S3-.'. Where was it tl'iat th
ide of lianrt'.
an(
1 verv little smuggling.
n had a permit ! — At Anthi-acite, five miles tiiis
3.')83.S. Is the population there connected with the coal mines? — Yes.
33S34. Then it was at that plj
ice wnere the s;
iale of liouor took iil
lave refei re
ci where the man was fined
place to winch you
;t3,s.;.", V \n'\e any licensed places at Bantl'at that time? \o.
33h"'> !.>!'! • J see anything of the operation of the four ]pei- cent law in the Ti f-
n tones
33S;57. Have vou been tl
lere since
th
icense law came into operation
? -N(
3383S. How did you find the state of tilings in this province? — There is verv ijood
I h
oi'der mamtanied here
33839. Are you favourable to pi-ohibition ? — I am.
33840. I)f)you think it ])racticable / -Yes.
33841. Do you think it applicable ?— Yes.
3.38 I'J. Have you considered it as applicable to the country as a wiiole ? -Fi'om the
vation of i>ublic contractors
s, wiio cai
ried it out
on public wo
rks that were beinj.
)nstructed while the railway was btMng coiistruc'ed, i am of the opinion that such a law
puld be carried out.
33843. What was their svstem of enforciJ>ir it • — <'n railroad construction, ea.st of
on, anil lie lui
I h
1'
it the law in forct
Winnipeg, Mr. Whitehead was in favour of piohibiti
.■!3S44. At that time thai part ,if the country was underst 1 to be Keewatin, ;ind
here were no permits granted V«'ould there not be a great deal of trouble in enforcing
IJK
fh an Act f— It was enfo'- ;■<! v jtl; 1,100 men employe<l.
.3384."). Who enforc ■^J >t
le contractor with the aid of a constalile.
3384(;. Withtl
le M
1
istablf
T
Wo constaliies were sutlicieiit for 37 miles
cif work.
.3.3847. Wei-e not efforts v ile to ' ring in liii>
33848. H
ow were
tiiose elii 't uctected? 'i'iie part
les would no
t be 1
oiiii "" t he
pi'k before the constable would ii.ive information regarding then
338Hi. Did the men b
.to show
,• the ellcct-
)t the liiiuor
W
338.-I0. I'^din what poi'.i was the iiipior bioiigiit in '.■ - !■"
•").38.")l. IJid tliev briug it in in diU'ereiit kinils of ves.sel.s f— Ye.s, sometimes in nitn
ip.
ulvcerine cans, soiiKuimes in oyster cans, in barrels of sugar, etc
3.'t8,')2. Nitro-glycerine, I suppose, had to i
le useii on
th
es ; and verv
few men were found who cared to interfere with tii
.3S.-)3. Vi;
oiii what vou saw there, do you consider it |)i;u'ti(aliii' to prcvi-nt lii|Uoi
; into the countrv . I d(
33851. Taki
IV' ti
iiri.rv as a w
hoi.
e and the (luestion as a wiiole, looking at Nova
Scotia, N-
I'loviiii-e (
H
runswicl
!i;;.f I
:'ince I'^dwarfl Island with their vast coa-st line.s, and tl
16
if (.^>uebec with (in (!iilf of St. Lawrence running through it, and the vast
-t line of Uritish ('olumhia and the bound;
ines ailioiiu
nu the I'nited States, what
systcMi would you aciopt to jirevent li(|Uor being brought in .' I do not care to enter
I'll' t!. u matter.
'i.'*'''"''\ Have you stiidieil it all ? - No :
in. ■iMi i . ohibitioii, I think it could lie done
197
hut
t with a (!ov erniiKMit in favour of carrv-
1;! I|
I.
ii
^ Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
.■{.■{SoCi. Ynvi bt'lievoit could he doiu" witli an eHic'.<'ut |Hilice force? -Yes.
.■?."{8")7. How would you jn'ovide fof the paynitMit of the foi'C(! ? — The force would be
paid hy the (ioNermnent.
.'{.■iHolS. I suppose the cost of nii'.intainini,' that force should, from your point of view,
he met by the Government placing that law in force? — I think it would bi> money spent
in the right direction
.■i;$85!l. Would you be willing to beai- youi" share of the expense of the work ? — Yes.
.■{.'58()0. In I'egard to the suppressii in of illicit stills, 1 suppdse you think a special
force would have to be appointed ? — Yes.
;{."$8G1. Now illicit stills and smuggling are suppressed for license purposes, an<l of
course a \ery small pi'oportion of the comnmnity are in favour of smuggling and illicit
stills ; would you not hav a large class U> deal with in case of the enactment of a gene-
ral ])roliibitory law? — Yes.
.■j;J8()2. But you would increase the force and make it sulKcient for the work .' Yes.
338G.'?. Have you considered the ()uestion of granting compensation to bi'ewers and
distillers fur loss of plant in the event of a genera' (/vohibitory law being enacted ? — I
am not in favour of granting comjiensation to them, ! ■! "' ■■; i 'ason : that those men have
had sufficient infnrmatiun in n^yard to the gi'owth ilic sentiment in favour of
jirohibition, to have taken warning. At the same tun . they were granted licenses
for a certain term, 1 think they should be compensated, should ]irohil)ition be enacted
for say six months, while the enforcement of the law would intei'fere seemingly witli
their business.
■S;5iS(>l. Then you would allow them compensation forlossuf business for six months.
Mould you pay compensatinn for- the machinery that brewei's and distillers are re(iuired
by the GovernnuMit to put in their establishments? The Parliament from time to time
passes laws requiring tlumi to adoj>t new improvements in machinery, so that the
(Government may iiave a gi'eater I'heck on the manufacture of liipioi': and, moreover,
the (Jovernment reipiire them to keep thcii' stocks of liiiuois for at least twii years for
purposes of rectification before its sale is allowed. As i arlianient has enacced laws,
compelling distillers to j)ut in s])ecial machinery and to keej) theii- stocks in bond for
two yeai's, lia\e they not a fair claim for compensation ? I hav(> not studii'd that part
of th(! t]uestion.
^.S^OT). Would it not seem I'easonabic that in <'acli case comiien-iation should b(^
made? - 1 do not think it should.
.S.'iStiC). No more than in tlus cas( of the license ; The law reipiires and comjiels a
licensee to have certain fittings in his house and in his bar J lb' practically stands in
the same ])osition.
.■{38G7. You would not allow him for the fittings? No.
.'{.'?8()8. But you would allow him for the months during which the licence had yet
to run l Yes.
Bj/ Jirr. Dr. .]frLn„f :
.'i.')8()'.). Ibiw many years ha\e elapseil since you left No\a Scotia?- I left it on
.'lOth June this year.
.'{15870. What part of Nova Scotia?- New (ilasgow.
.■i.'i87l. Have you knowledge generally of No\a Scotia? No.
.■i.'587L'. Ha\(' you (tl)served how loeal option works down there .' I was only
\isiting there.
;i;587."t. So you would not like to express an opinion .' No, I went east, and \isited
different ]ilaces ir. connection with the Cliuri-h work.
Jiij Judge Mr Dm ml (I :
33874. Did you get to New (Uasgow, by railway ? Yes.
,'i;i87o. ^\'ere you at the hotel at the station? ]My friends lived there, and it is
my honu'.
3387(). Then you did not notice whether any sale of intoxicating li(|Uors was going
on? — There i-^ \ery little liipior sold in New (ilasgow.
Kkv. Ai,i;.\.\xi)i:i( H. C.\mi;hon.
198
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
33877. Would you he jsurpriscd tliat jiassi'iiifi'r.s simply passing through hy railway
could visit the hotel and have iiitoxieating litpiors sold to tlieiii at the table, publicly? —
Yes, I have had in«!als at th(! hous<M)utsi(l(' the station, but lia\'e never observed anything
going on like that.
;{.'$S7S. Then it will surpi-ise you to hear of such being done / — Yes,
■oniiK'ls ii
ands in
l-as iitun
WILLIAM FEUt;US()N, of Brand.
sworn,
(lej)(
d
f<ill(
ihole.sale li(|Uor (
deal.
on heing (lu
ly
liij JmUje McDomthl .
.■?;587!t. How long ha\t' you resided in .Manitoba? - Ten vears last Ajiril.
.S.S880. During that time have you resided principally at Hi-andon ? Y<;:
.■{881. Where did vou come from'
Fi
Ed
mhur;
:i;i88L'. Were v
ou enuagefl \\\ tne sanu
business when vou were in Scotland
on lt)th of ne.xt
.■5.'i88.'i. How loiii;- haxf \<iu been in business here? — Ten vears
ith.
.'5.S884. Without making any in(|Uiry into your business, but taking your business
it is, and allowing for tlie incivase of po])ulation since j'ou came here, have you found
the s des to be increasing or diminishing? My business has increased, but T
it liy tin; increased popiilatiiui.
iccount tor
t f.i
:{.S88r.. Th
lere has not been anvtliinii bevond an onlinarv increase ,' No
.">;}88C). lias there been any change in the ciiaracter of tlie li(]Uor that the peiipie
seem to favour? — That depends greatly on the weather. In the summer they want ligiit
li(|Uoi's ; from now until lu'.vt spi'ing they want something stronger.
:i:{887
Is liLfjer beer i
niicli cnnsume(
.■i88S. Is
1 I Y(
1
es, esiieciallv ni sunnner.
demand falls oil' in winter.
s its consumption increased m the summer months
Hit the
).'i88!(. And the demand iiicreasi
S ill sumilKM'
I
with th(>
icrease in population.
nippi
. es, and it has increased
that 1'
.■i:!8i)0. Do you impo"t from Imi rope direct ? -Yes.
.'i:>8i)l. And you also im|)ort from t)ntario ? Yes. from distillers and bre
wers in
ro\ nice, and also in W innipeg
d.'
!8!)l'. ]>) you give your orders through travellers or direct/ Some direct and
others ifo throui'h Montreal.
.■?8i);5. In regard to imported lii|
itv, I
Uol>
lave you any opjiortunity yours(
If of testiny
tl
lem as to purity, I moan by regular test : or do you
take tliein on faith, as vou w
lein
:{.'{hi) 1. You receive them in the iiM
packages in which you sell them. I sujip'
. ? Yi
A.-i
.'i:58'.)."). You sell by the (piait or gallon? — Yes.
.'!.'i8!)(!. What is the smallest i|iiaiitity you are liceiisi
.'{.'58'.l7. 1 unilerstaiid you are a \\holesale !i(|Uor dealer under the Manitoba ijcense
il tl
A (|uart.
Les.
.■i.S898. Have you had any opportunity of obser\ii
ible to stat(> whether it is well I'liforced or not
iiivwhere b(!tter than in Brandon
1 d
le license law, and ai'e vou
o no
t think it is enforced
;i.'?8!)i). Do vou think there is anv i
1 licit
1 d
o not tliinl
11
lere is anv.
1100. You hav<
k
no kiiowie(
Ige of
X.
iiniii
.'iOOl. Have you ever considered the ipiest ion of the treatment of the |persistent
kard ? You are aware that there are some men who are frecpiently before the coui't
and sent to jail for short terms? In regard to those people who are not able to take care
of themselves, j think tliev should be taken care of.
.■|:!!IO'J. ^'(Hi think they should be ))laeed under some restrictions
Th
Act
provides for that. It givi's a member of a family ))ovver tn get out an interdict
199
Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba.
.'t;{lt0.i. Fii tlif lase nt" such a man you would place him in sonio institution where
drunkcmicss is ticatcd as ji disease ?— Not at all.
;{.'{904. ])o you n it think the man would manage to get liquor? Are there notsome
men in the trartie who wfiuld l)e disposed to supply the man whether he waa under an
interdiction or not? — Not in this town.
'.WM)^>. Then you do not think such a man eould uiet lliiuor here? No.
.'{."illOG. Take a man such as i hi>,ve descril)e(l, who is a troulile to the eonnnunity,
should he not he plai'ed ni an inehi'iate home or institution \vhen> he could he taken care
ot"? — I think so.
.S;5yU7. With a view to his reformation, it' jiossiijle ! -Yes.
;{;{908. I understood you to say that the use of Iit;ht wines and ales is a matter of
climate? — Yes.
.■{.'?90y. The Commission have been told that in Kurope or at all events in the
southern pai't of it, the ju'ople use light wines instead of the heavier li(|Uors ? — Yes.
.'J.'J'JIO. How is it in Scotland ? -They mostly use whisky.
.■?.'V.)11. Is there any i)articular ditFei'ence between Irish and Scotch whisky ? —No ;
it is a uuitter of flavour.
;^'59rJ. Have you had any experience of prohibition in any country ? -No, except
in the North-west Territories.
:$:$91.'{. Where were you residing? —I was at Moose-Jaw on business.
.'}:!'.) 14. When were you there ? — Since the railway was there.
.■i."591."). Was prohibition long in force then? — Y'^es.
.■?.'t91(l. Was lit[Uor sold there ?- -I went there to push the permit trade.
.'{;{917. Did you tind your trip successful ? —Occasionally I did.
.S.'5918. What d(» you mean by ])ushing the permit trade?—! went to the Imtels and
gave people a card, as 1 thought it was my right to do and mv interest to do.
:\:V.n'.). Wen- you able to get driidi ? -Yes.
.■<;59'_*0. How did you push the permt tiade ! I let the jieople know I was in the
business, and where they could get the goods if they had permits.
.■}."i9L'l. Then you mean that when a man had a permit he could send it down to
you, and you would furnish the liquor ?— Yes.
.'}.'i9l*:i. What quantities did those permits usually co\cr .' — Five oi' ten gallons at a
time. \t first it was two gallons at a time, but it was aftei'wards increased.
.S.'i 9 :.'."?. Were the men who had permits dealers in ii<|i'or ? -No, not altogether.
Some were, and they would go down and get a cei'tain quantity. Then they would I'etiaii :
I do not knr>w what they did with the li(pior, T presume they disposed of it.
.■^■V. , 1 ',Vas there nuu'h trade built uj) in that way ? — Yes.
3.")92"). Was li(|Uor sent out to dill'erent sections? -Yes, from here tolMjrt Macleod,
:5;59:.'(). Not north of the line ?— Y''e.s, to Prince Albert.
.S.'{9'J7. Did jjermits come from all tho.se points f Yes.
.S.?9!2iS. How was the liquoi- shipped ? Tt was shipped by express.
Did you do any business in four ])er cent beer? \'ery littl
Dill you supj)ly it to the 'i'erritories .' Not to any extent.
Did you purchase any youi-self ? Yes.
l)id you think there was more than foin' percent of alcohol
:<:i9J9.
;j;i9:io.
xvxw.
'\'.VX\'2. l)id you think there was more than foin' p; r cent of alcohol in it .' I could
not say.
.'Ki!):!."). .Some one has exfiressed the opinion that ihere was more than four per cent
in it '. — Sometimes the dealers would put something in it to mak" it sti'onger. Pedlars
sometimes would put brandy in it.
.S;VJ34. Were those [)edlars going about the country? Yes; but that piactice did
not prevail to any great extent. There were always plenty of people who were anxious
to go into the business.
;^.'?9."<."). Had you any o]iportunity of testing the liquor they wer«' peddling: ditl
those people adulterate the li(|Uor xci'V nnu/li '. 1 was very cautions ; I was afraid of
the whiskey up thei-e, I had heard so nuicli about it.
.■i393(). Supposing a man got a permit for five gallons of licpior and brought it into
the country and was going to jjcddle it. was it not a great tenqitation to him to increase
tlu' bulk and at the same time to endea\(>ui' to keep up the alcoholic strength ? Jixactly.
WlI,LI.\M I''ek(;usox.
I''- ' ill
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
i".t-"(7. I)i<l yim U'nvn wlmt siil)stances were tisi'il : wcic lilucsti
t..l
KK'l'l I
Li.sed r -I liii\<' liciird so, luit f could not siiy iiositivdv \\liJit tlic iiiiii't'dicnts were
:{:{0;iS. I siipposf it is lifinlly lu'i'i'ssiwy tci ask ynu wlH'tlici- you iii'c in favour of
tilt' prohibition of tlu! licjuor business? — If tlu'i-c was |iroliihition the world
would
certainly
he f,
iivouiahle to it.
.■i."$'.).'5!t. What ahout having prohihition in AlanitoVia ! - It would not do at all.
There would he sinus.'Silinj' across the li
ti»>. Not
me people iniaLfiiii' thai ]i(|Uor could h-
it out, hut I do not think it could, and it would come in hy ail kinds of way.'
.■{.S9-t0. In case of the enactment of a prohihitory law, would you favour the gi'aiit
in<; of coin|iensati()n to brewers and distillers for loss of plant f- I think
a heavy license now.
T
1
MWU. I><. you think they should 1
1 have paid ."?.jU() myself for a licens
my;
)e rennint
rated for th
stock nil hand
pay a heavy license, and are obliged to carry a certain amount of litpioi\
Jiy Rrv. Dr. MrL.ml:
.■{.■5!tl2. [s there .' lugglini,' of li((Uor now in this country, say into .Manitoba, where
there is a license law .' I do not think so, not to my knowledge,
.'5.">!)4.S. The Connnission is aware that there is extensive smuggling carried on in
the Province of Quebec by the St. Lawrence rfiute ? -Yes : but I do not think that j)re-
vails now. If, however, prohibition were enacted, there would be a gi-eat many enter
the busine.ss.
:}:{9U. h
it a fact th
It th
...i./TT. 1.^ n iioi .1 i.i^ I, iiifii <i< 111, |.i'esent time nearly thre<'hiurtlis ut the total
cost of whisky is in the duties; should not, therefore, the trade be jirolitable f 'I'here
is not a large enough i|uantity sold to make it pay.
.■?.'i!)4r). Is that because the preyentive otHcera along the line arc on the alert .' Yes.
.■}.'{y4C). Do you think the same otKccrs might prevent smuggling if there was prohi-
bition? — Taking the position now, there are too many in the trade to allow liquor to
come in in that way because they could not sell it. if liquor was brought in under a
general prohibitory law, then it would be very diH'erent, because lots of men would yn
aiul inform.
.'i.'iitlT. Would they inform now ? T'hey would, if they <'om1(I tind it nut.
^i.SlUS. The imjiression was given the Commission in (^)uel)ec that considerable
^luantities of li(|Uor smuggled thei'e were bought up at reduced rates by the dealers and
also by the distillers .' — Indeed. 1 have found in this country, where tlier<' is local
■option in force, Von cannot get the same accommodation at hotels as where there is
licen.se.
!)."5',I-IU. You do not think it is easy to run a hotel without the sale of liiiuor I - Not
ill this country.
:i;U)."iO. Why.' I think it is because tlie jn'-'ple eat
so imicll : t ill liote
las to sell liquor in order to help to it^'d the people who do not use liquor.
1."U)">1. In order to feed the people who do not buy drinks / -That is al
Ivi
l.'5'.>.")'_'. Is that fair to the hotel-keeper .ind fair tn the people tl
lemseUes
lout It.
Ill
111 the food and make it
at the b
;:t!i.'i:i. Si
ppose ten men go to ai
hoti
and live take drink, and the bote
el, and live are |ieople vvlio are total alistainers
proprietor t
lara'es .•'<L' per day eai
I'll. The five total
alistainers pay §1' ]).'r day, and think they are payiiii; foi' the food they get : but it now
ap]ieais that that is not the case, for the Initel man is not receiving his ow ii from them,
liiit he is making sullicient out of the other live men at the bar to help him feed tlm.se
live total abstaini'rs. Is that true,' I think it is.
•i.i'.lol. Should not the hotel proprietor charge those total abslainei-- iiinie .' If
iliey could go to a house and pay $1 per day, they would n<it pay i*!',
.l.'iil.")'), I )o you not think that self respecting men want to pay for
Tliev usually do.
w li.it lliev L'et I
."i.'i'.t.")(i. Are there any men in iirandnn who get drunk '. I think t here are occasion-
:illy, but they are very few.
.'i.'litoT. I suppo.se tiiey buy drink at the licen,sed places? Yes,
:);i<).")S, I understo'id you t'l say concerning tlio.se ]ieople who cannot take care nf
no one in lirandon would sell to such people',' Yes,
llielllM'ht
and who m't drunk, that
i
^ir
^'i-;
Mi
J,'
M
P
■»"■,. ■
'■li-..".*
;K :■■'
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
•i-i'J")!*. Not it' they were uiulei- iiiU'idii'tioii? The}' would ikjI sell to int'ii uiuler
interdiction, liei-ause they would not dare t(» do so.
.'i'JKGO. I)o v(pu sell retail an well as wholesale? I am a wholesale and retail tleider.
Rev. .JA.MHS \VOOI.)S\V()J{TH, of lirandon, on being duly sw<irn, dei^osed as
folI(»ws :
Jii/ ./iii/(/n Mr Donald :
.'i.19()l. To what Chureh do you helonj; ? I helonj^ to the Methodist Chureh.
.■(."i'JfJ'J. What position do you hold? I am Sujierintendent of Missions in Manitolia
and the North-west Territories.
.'5.')!J()."i. How long iiave you lived in Manitoba? A little ovei- ten years.
.■l.'i!)()4. Jlow long have you li\i'd in lirandon.' Seven years.
.■{.■Jiid"). |)id you li\'e in the T(;rritories at any time? No : T ha\e not lived there,
.■{.'jyOO. You have travelled thei'e, I suppo.se? -Yes.
.■>.")!)()7. AVe ha\(' the deliveranee of youi' (Jluireh as gi%en hy the (Jenei'al .Asseuihly
jit Montreal in If^'.K). I suppose you ha\e I'ead it? Y'es. ^
.'53908. As a niinistei- and as an individual, do vou eoiu-ur in that deli\crance ? —
Yes.
339GI). Have you seen the working of ]irohil)ition in the Xoith-wcst Territories?
— Y\'s.
.■{.■{!)70. Are you able to say whether under that system tiie people could obtain
liquor or not? I have seen men drunk, and I presume they i)urehased the liiputr.
3."5971. How have you found matters in liraiulon and in .Manitoba generally '.
Have you found this to be a sol)er and law-abiding comnumity ? if I spoke c'omi)ara-
tively, that is judging from the other provinees, i should say they are.
.'i.'!'.)?-. I>ut you think the people are law-abiding on the whole '. \ think so.
.■i;597.'5. You are ojiposed to the jiresent license law, of course? Yes.
3.'5974. Do you think tliat the lii. using of the trallic is in itself sinful?- I do not
know exactly how to answer that que- ion.
3.'{97i). We lia\'e met some witnesses in Winnipeg and in otlier parts of Canada
who took the ground that it was sinful to license at all, and I simjily wished to elicit
your opinion on that ]ioint, before asking you in irgard to the license la« ? There has
l)een a doubt in my mind whether pi-ohibition under some circumstances, for instance as
I saw it in some parts of the Territories, was better than license. Jiut even if 1 were
to supjtose that license under some circumstances might jierhaps be better than jirtt-
hibition under certain circumstances, that would hardly answer your tpiestion. I have
had no personal experieni'e, and 1 do not know how I c<)ul(l gi\c an opinion on the
matter.
33971). \} you consider the licensing of drinking to be a sin? I am inclined to
that view.
.■i.'i977. Knowing nothing as to what the etlect of untrammelled sale would be, you
are unable to say wliethei' a license law would be jileferable i J could not.
3.S97S. Taking the license law as it is, and assuming that it is the law, could you
suggest any amendment to it? -No ; 1 have nothing to oiler.
.33979. In case of the enactment of a geu.M'al j)rohibitory law, would you favour the
granting of compen.sation to bi-ewers and distillers for loss of plant ] \ cannot see why
they should be compensateil.
3.39(^0. ^'ou would be opposed to that projHKsition I Yes.
By AVr. Dr. MrL,„d :
3.3981. In youi- position as Superintendent of the Missions Hoaid of Aianitoba .ind
the North-west Territories, luue you obser\ed whether the liquor ti'attic- as it luis been
William Kkik.ison.
802
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
geiieriilly (.-iri-icd on iiiid tlic li(|U((r liiil)it liii\c prixUiced i
soi'iiil !Ui(i inuiiil iiilci'csts <)t"tl
It' omm
n|uiiuus cH'ci'ts nil the l)usiiu'ss,
try, iir liiivc tlii-y i>i'(i(lu<'('(l liciit'ticifil t'trccts / I
think tlic litiuor tiviHic iifli'i-ts uiit'avi)Ui'iil)ly tlic iimriil fiiiil rcliy
'nni'^, ;iii<
I I
the I
USIllfSS Illtt'l't'StS (I
f tl
M' ('(IllllllUIIlt V.
•'iDSL*. As a iimiistt'i-, luivc vuu uljscrvcd
your own [HTsimiil work as wi'll as in
lid tils
II
your jiosition as liaviiig su|>t'riiitcridciict' of tiic work of otiier ministers, tlmt tlio li(|i
tratlii' is an inti-rfcrt'iu'c with Christ iii
I'k ? Y(
.'i.'i'.ts;?. Have you ohsci'scd whctlu-r the li(|iior tralHt
(• IS III any dcificc rcsjions
hi.
for t-riiiit' and jiovcrty, doinestii' trouble, nt'j^lfH-t of cliiidrfii and iit'<,'li'ct of ri'ii;;ion '/- -
I'ndouhtt'dly so, in a Ncry larj^e dt';,'i'cc.
.■5.'{!)<S4. I )o you know of anything t'Isc that is in an (M|ual dcgrcf rt's|>onsil)lc for
tl
lose trold)l(!S
Notl
iin<
•Isc tiiat I am aware of.
.'i."iltf<r). I think vou ha\c already stated your iielief in the ])riiiei|ple of prohihitiun ?
Yes.
.■).'<'.)St). I)oyou think tliere would he any trouble in enforcing prohibition ifenaetod
by the whole of the people, because whatever is {U)ne by Parliaiueiit is done by tlii' will
of tile jn'ople .' Notwithstanding apparent ditlieulties, do you think it would be
uld ]iut a principle of that kind
iractica
ble t.
I elltorce sucil
h a lii
Jf th
l"''»l
Ix'fore their Jiarly politics, it could be carried out.
.■{.SU.^7. Then you think that politics interfere? Yes.
.■J3988. In the North-west Territories, have you observed the operation of tlie]ierinit
.system? In the early days of the permit system, permits were granted for small
ipiantities of liipior, and later the law was so Construed that persons were allowed by
pel
the
iiiit to bring in ipiaiitities of even lUO gallons for |nii|iiise of sal
ditioii of thiiu
ilates Imck five yei
s under those two .systems? My experience in
Did
theT
Voii observi
erntories on
ly
:!:5!>S!l-!)0. That would be back to 18.S7
.'!'J!*1. l)id you obserNC that the ])ermit system was administered witli a great
deal of loo.seness and that scarcelv aiiv discretion was exercised in regard to it
It
was
ally reported that this was the case, ;\inl later on, in lN^<'.l, ]iermits to bring in
ijuantities of li((Uor for sale were granted.
3.'5!)"J"_'. Have vou obsei'ved whether there
IV ditl'(
ereiice in the ouaiitit v of liiiuor
consumed an
1 and the drinkiii'' habits of the i)eo|)le i;enerallv under the iiresent licen
as compared with the permit system .' < )f course the present system has 1
tioii oiilv a verv few months. As vet I lia\e visited the 'I'eirit
I*
se law
M'cn in o]iera-
t the
il
/eiieral imiiression, as expressed to me in various
ipi
I U
Its of tl
ones iiiilv oiu-e, hu
le couiiti'\ , was that lh<
MrmKinu' iiai:
1 been far in excess of what it was previously.
I
I'll )\\' All 1 > ■! I'KES, of Ihaiidon, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
lU/ Jiulyc McDonald : '
."{."i'.lll.'i. \\'liat is your occupation?--! am Manager (jf this branch of the Im-
perial Bank.
•■5,'<9't4. li(jw long have you resided in .Manitoba.' l."> years this ! <eceml)er.
.■i.'li)!)"). How long havi> you resided in Itraiidon .' 10 years last April.
• IMyjC). Did you come here from one of tin- other |)ro\iiices.' I came from ()ntaiio,
tVoiii 'i'oronto, to Winnipeg; but 1 originally resided in St. Catharines.
• !.'i997. Have 3'ou .seen a good deal of change in this countiv since vou canieluM-e?
— Y'es.
;i;<l)!)S. ?lave you noticed any change in regard to the customs of the )>eople regard-
inn' the use of into.xicaiing be\erages ? -I cannot say that I ha\f noticed very much
ihaiige. 1 have seen a gooil deal of drinking and late hours, but considering everything,
there is very little drinking in this province.
•'5.'Ut!)i). Are the people .sober and law-abiding jieople? They certainly are.
803
I. nil
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
ii| ;^.
;^I000. Have you ((IjscrNcd the wnrkiii'; nt' llic litHMisc law in tliis pai-ticiilar com-
imiiiily, wlictlicr it is iciiMUialjly well ciit'niTcd and obsfis imI l)y I he pcnpic ? I have IK'I
paid vci'V iiiutli alti-ntioii tu it.
."itOOi. Ha\f you c'ousidt'i't'd tin- (|Uc.stion of liij,'li licciisi' and tlie liiiiital ion of iln'
nunilicr of licenses or any of tiie (|iU'stions in eoniieetion witli the lii|Ui)r tratHc ? — I cuu-
not say that I have considered them. I do not think a few more licenses would make
any dilleience.
.'ilUO:.'. Suppose liy lej;islation, either the hotel har or the saloon bar had to he done
away with, vvhicli would it he hetter to (hspense with in the interest of the community?
— I sluiuld say the saloon har.
;?400."5. r su[ipose you haxc no knowledge as t(» whether illicit sale takes place here
or not '.' No.
:M00I. Take your husiness as an e.xampic ; have you found that the liijuor- trathc
has any particular ell'ect on it? — (Jf course in this district it has very little etlect. Tiiere
is only one brewer here and his output is very small. The cHect would, of coui'se, he
j,'reater in lai'<{cr i)laces. where there are distilleries and lari;e hreweries.
.'MUU"). What I desire to inquire is this, whether the drink trade has any etl'cct on
the husiness of the counnunity as a whole, and whether you tind it is at all disadvan-
tatceous ,' — It is certainly a very dangerous thinj;, this drink, l>ut I have had vei-y little
experience that way. In this section it has not affected our husiness in any way.
.■{■J00<). Ha\t' you considered the i|Uestion of i,'cneral prohibition for the whole
Dominion: ha\f you ever li\('il in a prohibition countrv .' No, I never ha\e. I am
op|)iised to prohibition.
.'UUU7. Are you opposed to prohil>it ion in principle .' — Yes. 1 think it takes away
a man's rij^ht, to a certain extent, to think and act for himself.
.'U00i*<. Supjiosing that such a law were passed, do you think it would be practic-
able, and that it could be enforced? I do nt)t think that it could be carried out in a
satisfactory manni'r, or that it would be backed up by the voice of the pco]i|e. i would
be more inclined to close up the bars and let treating' be done away with. I thiidc such
n measure would do more good than actual prohibition.
.'itOO'.l. You think there must be a very strong chani;e of |iublic sentiment in its
favour before such a measure could be successfully carried out ? Yes.
.■$4011*. What tlitliculties would you apprehend in the way of carrying out such a
law? There are certain classes who will have li(|uoi' at any cost, aiul there is nodoul)t
that they will tintl some means of getting it, and will get it.
."VWll. Ha\e you considered the ipu'stion of granting coiniiensation to brewers aiul
distillers foi- plant and machinery, in the event of the enactnuMit of a genei'al ])rohibitory
law? — r certaiidy think they should be I'emunerated.
;5401:i. Ha\e yt)U had any ex|)erieiioe in I'aii'ope, where light wines and light beers
are used .' - No.
•'5401 -■>. It has been suguested that probably the use of light wines and be(>rs might
be (lt>sirable in this country, the use of them to a larger extent than at present, iti
preference to stronger li(|U(;irs .'- -T think that would tend to reduce the ill effects of the
liquor traile.
.■{4014. Have you cvt'i' considered the ijuestion of the treatment of the persistent
drunkard, the man who is constantly before the police court and is sent to jail foi- short
terms, and then is back again? Have you considered wiu'ther it would be advisable to
place such a man in an institution for inebriates ! — Yes, T maintain that that should be
done with a view to his reformation.
-I would have them
Hi/ A'er. Dr. MrL.orf :
;!|()|."). How would you maintain those inebriate homes
organized as they are in the I'nited States.
.'UOUi. Does tin- State maintain them? — Yes.
."HOI". You have state<l that if either the hotel or saloon bar wtus to be abolished,
you would do away w ith the saloon. Please state your reason for <liscriminating against
the salonn and in favoio' of tlie hotel bar? I do not know of any reason in jiarticular,
Kl)VVAl!l> .liKi;s.
201
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
link tlici'c is iniirt> ilriiikiii^' ;;<>iii;,' cm in tin- siiloon tliMii in tlic Imtc
l>ui I til
ilic liittcl l)iir is |iriii('i|iiilly used hy tin- i,'ii('sls ut' llic liuiisc, anil
tl
icir IS nut as
I'inki
I'lilt
That, at all cNcnts, has
\'vi\ my <'X|it'ri('nt
IHOIH. TlicM yini tliitik tln> .salixm is inort- (liinucrdus as a drinkin;; place ! ^'l^s ;
lit'caiisc the jti'iiprit'toi' of the hnti'l « ill certainly endeavniir to see that his har is carried
an tirdeils'
III! in
''iven to anv man wiio is inclinec
inaniiei', and he w
I t
ill only emjiloy men who will not allow liinior
o anv extent to cieale disord
to Ik
er.
lUOl'.l. i think the law piohihits ilu> sale to any drunken man, and also after cer-
tain hours mid t>ii Sunday, Mo you think saloon men are not cai'eful as to whether tliey
still to drunken men oi' to soher men I I do not think they are as carefid as they iiiii,'ht
he ; 1 do not think the law is carried out as strictly as it should he.
.'UOl'O. It is claimed l>y sonic persons that the hotel har is more daiii;erous I han I he
saloon har, for this reason : that while, on the one hand, the saloon is a place where
liipior
IS so
Id.
an(
1 wl
lere onlv men
who have developed taste for liipior visit, and for tlr
purpos(> only of ^'ettinji firink, and <lo not hesitate aliout j,'oiiijj[ there ; on theother lianil,
he hotel har is more dangerous hccause vi
I
forme(
Ml who lia\e not the drinkin
d)it
I sti
roniriv, ciin iro
th
tor
tl
hi.
le osteiisilile jiur|iosi
of seeini' a friend or a ne
paper, and for other purposes, and at the same time they can ijo into the har without,
heini; noti(M'(l and conti'aet the habit of driiikinu'. Ha\e vou e\i'r tliou;,'lit of the matter
that lijj;ht ! No, i have not.
.'UU'JI. Then, in your opinion, the saloon har is the i^realer daiiu'er .' It
.'ht
liaiilv he s(
;it(f_'-_'. You haw
d and
d no dould llial there are certain
people w ho linn
k
that the drink trade, as it exists, is a menace to their hoys and j;irls, to the weak and
unwary, and t-o the community in its business, .social and moral interests. Ilavi- these
|(eoi>le not the ri;^ht to try and rid themselves of what they consider to he a dan;;er ! 1
certainly think that if prohibit ion, supported by public o])iiiioii. could be carried out, it
lid be a l;oimI thiiiy, and 1 for one wouh
lb'
onlv too ''lad to see it ln'oll
;llt
iUHlUt.
.•U0-.
Tl
u'n vou tliiii
k it
Would he a ;{oud tliiii'', it it cou
Id 1
)(• ei
iforced .' I think
so, if it could be strictly tMiforced accordiiiij to law.
.'540'24. Wo it is a ([uestion of the ])raoticability of enfort'ini,' it, rather than a ip
tion of principle.' I hardly think it is a ]iraclicable tliiii<f.
.'UUL'."). Have vou tlioui,dit whether th
ut jilebiscite in Manitoba means that ih
people would like to lia\(' [trohibition'.' I think they would like to lia\i' it.
;!40L'<). Do you think when the i)eojile of Manitoba, by lL',UU() votes, expressed
iliemselves in favour of [trohibition, that they knew what it meant ? — I think the\ did.
observed that the
Itrandi
:!40l
s a l)usiness man, liaMiiii' cliaiite o
if a bank, lia\t
livcrsion ot a coiisi(
lerab
sum of money, exp
ded
111 a place like l.randon, on (Inn
IS
a diversion from other channels in which mmiey iniLjht be more suitably emploved ? —
's, it mijiht he used in a better way.
:t4U2S. T.ike Hraiuloii ; there are eijiht places licensed to sell li(|
ui o\('r estimate to place the .sales at each iil
|icr iiav
I
,• for all, and that sum for .'iOO dav
s WIUlll
at
'i\e
per I lay, w
liich
It would
d
not
1 would be 8200
cliO.OOO
ler annul
II. Take that
SliO.UOO which yoes into the Iniuor salouiis in riiandun in the coin
Sll
of a year, i
duct
ppose that if that money were turned into other channels, it would be prodiii
,'ieater benefit ? It most certainly would atVect business and iinjiroNc it. 1 t
II you
ive of
iini'
III
iiiaiiv cases, s
ucl
1 as s
iekii
ess, iiiiuor IS
beneticial and is absolutclv nci'ded. There an
iloiibt men who use it to excess ill any case, but at the same time prohihition would stoji
tliiise who can take a i^lass of ale occasional Iv, which no doubt docs them nimd, in
ih
do not care to take liouor to excess.
•"UO^f^f*. The prohibition that is spoken of in this country and in every country you
arc aware, no doubt, is limitation of liipior for beveratfe purimses simply. 1 hardlv
iinilerstand this prohibition : is it prohibition of the manufactured
."ilOJS/y. "S'es, of the manufacture, imiiortation and sale of alcoholic liipmrs for
lii'xerage purjioses?- -Quite so.
/>!/ Jiiifyc Mi-Doniihl :
•'i402f<c. Do you think that probably if the money was not spent on liipior,
it would find its way into other channels of expenditure of a better kind/ Is
205
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
tht'n- not sfiiiictliiiii; in tin- itlcii of pcojilf Itcin;; iillowcd to spend tlit'ir own nioticy iiM
they i>lt'asc .' If tin* nioncv sjicnt on fust liornr's imd on tliciitri' i»irt it's were cxiPi'ndcd
ill i»tlnT ways, would it not l)e iM'tti-r if put into ic;,'ulai' channels of trade ,' — Yes ; tliere
is a ir'xxl dfal to Im- said on lioth sides.
;{HtL".». So far as expendituro jjfoes, is lliere not the ijiiestion of the I'i^rjil of people
to spend their own money as tht'V |>lt'ase .' ("ertaiidy.
.'<40.'tO. In ■'('■{anl to the (|uesti()n as to tli(< hotel and saloon liar. The ipiestion has
JK'en put to you as to whother, takinjj; sample cases of youn^ men, a youni; man mi;,'ht
not iiit into a hotel to set? a friend on husiae.ss and goini' there he tempted, and thereby
evil Iw (lone, and you have said that it is possible. Hn the other hand, are there not
many younj; men, who wcaild not ;,'o into u hotel and drink In^fore the j^niests, but who
would slip i|uietly into a saloon and drink .' That is the i-ase.
Hi/ Her. Dr. McLend:
'A¥y.\\. !><) you think prohibition is an attempt to makf people s{>en(l their inr>ney
in other ways than they desire ? -No ; F understand the meaning; ui prohibition to be to
|>ruhibit liipior eominj,' into the country at all and the use of it as a bevera;,'e.
'.Wiy.Vl. Do you consider a prohibition law, whatever may l>eyoui- view of proliibition.
is e«lucative, lK>cause the li({uor tratlic Is, ail things considered, a great injuiy to the
country at large f — Yes ; I V)elievo so.
.■{4U3;{. Ant! it does not compel men to spend money in some way or other, but it is
viewed as a means of [ireventing the evils that result from the di-ink tratlic .' Yes.
."UO.U. Tliat is the belief of its (ulVoeates, I tliink? — Yes.
.STKPHKX (.'LHMKXT, of I {randon, Sheriff of the Western .hulicial Di.strict of
Manitoba, on lieing duly sworn, depf>sed as follows : —
Jiy .lii<Ui>; MfDiinidd :
'^\()'^'^. How loiijL, nave you resided in Manitoba? — J came here in the sjiring
of 18S0.
340;^t). Have you resiii^d all that time in Urandon? - J.'o. I resided in the ><orth-
west Territijries, at Shoal L ke, and came to Brandon in 1882.
.UU;?;. How long have -ou been Sheriff /—Since L'tith July, ISS:.'.
.■UU3S. ])id you come h -re from Ontario ? -Yes.
.■UO:{!t. What county ? — The county of Siuicoe. T resided at liarrie.
.54040. Did you leave Simcoe liefore the Scott Act came into force / — I think the
Act w.is passeil before I left ; but T would not be sure whether it was the Scott Act
o" not.
.'54041. Have you seen the working of ])rohibition in the Nta-th-west Territories? —
'\ es : I have had some experience of it.
.■Ul>4J. How did it operate in the Territories .' — In some ways it was lieneficial, but
it was a farce to a great extent, I think.
iU04."5. Did the people have intoxicating li(|Uors to flrink ?- 'J'hey would get a
cargo or a similar i|Uantity occasionally, and then they would get together and drink to
excess : they were not moderate about their drinking.
:i4044. They would use up the cargo, 1 sujipose .'--Yes, I remember u]> at Shoal
Liike there was a case of a merchant and n farmer. The farmer got a live gallon cargo,
cand both of them soon got the worse of liijuor, and the merchant went home without his
Inxits.
3404.'">. What became of the farmei* ? — The farmer Itxiked after the merchant, and
took him home.
3404t). That li(juor was got under jiermit? — Yes.
34047. Was licjuor ever smuggled into the Territories? — Yes.
Edward Jikks.
20t> '
67 Victoria,
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
•{4U4<'^. !><> yoii kiinw !lllylllill^ iilioiit the I'liiinu'trr uf tin- li(|
iiur, w
hrtl
KT It \Ml>
lU
Usvt
lultfniteil witli i-itiii|M)UM<ls or not?- Tlicri' was liiui li(|U((V tlicrt'. 'I'Ihtc was lii|ii<ii'
I t'ui- nH-<licii)i- tliat was fixt'd up witli (liH'crpiit articles, ami Mavmi'd.
:UOH». AikI witli I'aiii kill.-r
I'S, lots
.f 1'
kill
.'Uo'il). Wert' tiicsc li(ju()rs foiiHii
bv a t'fw III' tlifiii.
lliril iiy llic [iiMinlc till' lirVi'iMi;!' |itir|ii
•MO")!. Ki't'i'iiiii^' til IJiiiiiijim ; liavo >ou found tliis tn
diidi
am
I suU
c-ninmuiiitv
It
diiitit
tn tl
le avt-fayr
■UU">"J. i>iK'sit fDMijiaro t'avuuialtly witli what yuii liaM- know ii <it' t'uinniuiiiti
Oiitani
I think so.
;U().'");5. Have you fluifjif of thr |ii'isiiiis in thr disti'irt as I'hicf rxcrutive ollici-r of
the wi'sti'i'n judicial distrirt '. — Yt's.
;MU.">4. Havf you iiiurh crinic /-Not for as largi' a district as this.
larucnv.
340.')'). How many prisoners have you in jail '/ Prohalily live or six.
.'540.")t>. What charj;cs arc at;ainst tlicin / — A jj[ood many prisonors are there fur
.■U0."»7. Ha\c you ever known a larjic proportion of tluMii committed owinj; to the
usv- of intoxicatiiifi licjuor'- In rej^ard to the jirisoners now in jail, I could not sav
much ulKjut them : hut taking; prisoners jjenerally, I think that proliahly the greater
proportion of the crimes are committed throu^di li(|Uor.
.'{lO.'iS. You mean directly or indireitly ! Yei
.■U(J."i'.t. Have vou oliserved the workinji of
f th
license
here? — Not \erv
particularly.
•"{4060. Are there any amendments you are able to sufi^jfvsl to that ! w with a \ ie
to believe that there is illicit sale of iiipior at iJrandon
til makin<; it more eH'ective / — Ni
.'UOtil. Have you reason
' not know of any.
'UUti'J. J)o your iluties cause you to travel much over the I'ountry / .Not much.
.406.'$. Do you employ a deputy ? — Ye.s. 1 travel a little sometimes.
.'{40(i4. In your travellinj; do you learn facts to lead one to suppose that then? is
illicit sale carried on ?■ I think there are places without lii'ense that lirinj.; in liijuor
iiccasiopally.
.■> KJO-"). iUit you have no personal experience on that point, I suppose? — No.
.'UOGfi. Have you considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the man who is
haliitually before the Police (jourt for drunkenness, and who i;; imprisoned for short
terms '. Are you able to say whether it would be desirable to lock up such men for loiif;
terms in inebriate asylums? -I have never j,'iven that, matter much consideration. The
case-, that come under my notice are .so varied. 'I'liere are some men svho take a little
iiccasionally and are inafle drunk ; it would be a pity to tak<' them from their frienrls.
."iU)t)7. In am not speak in;i of that class of man, but of those who are constantly
iii'fiire the Police Court and art? sentenced for short terms? — I would decidedly a[iprove
lit' imttiin; them in inebri.ate asylums when they ;ire of no j;ood to their families.
.'{ KJtifi. Comint; to the i|Uestioii of jnohibition : are ymi favuurable to prohibitinri as
ii i)riiicij>le ? — I am.
.) 1009. ^Vllat do you think of the practicability of (!nforcing a jjeneral measure .' —
I think it could be enforced with very little diHicully.
:i407O. What machinery would you adopt for the jiurpose of enforcing it? — I have
never none into that.
■MOTl. liut that is one of the ipiestions we have to face. We have a country with
a i-iiast line on two oceans. The Maritime Provinces occupy a larj;e coast line ; Prince
I'Mward Island is entirely surrounded by the sea ; there is the (luif of the St. Lawrence
Kiver running up into Quebec ; then there is the I'nited States boundary, and the Pacific
Ocean on the west: take the .sentiment in those Provinces: consider the strong
prohibitory sentiment in the Maritime PriA'inces, the strong feeling in (Quebec opposed
'" ]irohibition, <>ntario probably in the balance, and the stroni, feeling in l5i-itish
• iilumbia against it: would enforcement throughout the who'.e of the country be
I'lacticable, or would you look upon enforcement oidy in this Province as practicaljle?
If su, how would vou <leal with the provinces opposed to it? — I think it .should be their
207
I III
,1
|! hi
II li
' Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
duty to see that liquor was not hrouf;lit in. 1 liold that without Ini-urrinj; very urcat
ex|)ensc, li(|Uor niii^ht he kept out. Thei-e are a jii'eat many |k )j>le wiio say tliat, it'
liquor was not manufactured, there would he n«, ditHculty, and it" respeetahlt^ men were
jiut as otHeors, men who woidd not aec;!])t hrihes, tht? law could he cai'i'.ied out.
•'UU72. In re<(ard to the Customs law and Inlajxi Ilevenue law, have you not in
each ot' these cases a law that has the symijathy of the great hulk of the [leople all over
the country hehind it! — Yes.
'MOT.\. Would you have that weight of sentiment witli you if the.'e were a prohi-
liitory law enacted '( — I think we would.
;MU7 t. Do you think that at least tw(j of tlit! Provinces which would he against it
would fall into line and sujjport it ? — 1 should not like to .speak very niucii ahout those
provinces tliat would opjiose it. The French people are quite different Irom Ontario
peopl(! and are more disposed to ih'ink ; I have had very little experience of them,
liowever.
.■M07-">-7G. Would not tlii^ occupation of Collectors of Customs and Inland Revenue
ix'gone in the event of the enactment of such -i la'.v. for th(;re would he no iidand revenue
to collect —i,i' f'ourse there might be some in Queljec ? Would you have olHcei's* sjieciallv
appointed to enforce such a law ? — I have not given much considei-atiou to the matter,
l)ut at the same time it appears to me that if it was the (htty of tlie iM)lic;' constables
and otlicers to get inf(jrmation and if there was a penalty attachcfl in case of their failing
to do so, the work would be done.
'MOn. You would require those otticers who ai'(> connected with the administration
of justice to look afte" the enforcement of a general jirohibitory law? — T'lat is a good
u'/-i, stated bi'ieHy.
.■M07i'^. Would you favour the granting of compensation to hn^wers anddistiileis for
'••■■s of plai:*^, in the event of the enactment of '. general prohibitory law ,' — My idea is
that where they have been running, say five years, they have had a pretty go(jd op]ioi'-
tunity of making money and cttmpensation should not be very extensive, though [ tiiink
some I'enumeration might be advisal)ie under some circumstances.
;jt07'.>. It has been suggested in the case of licensees, that in the event of such a
law beii'.g pas.sed, it would be fair to remunerate them for loss of Ousine.ss during the
year for winch they have licenses. What is your opinion in regard to that matter /-It
do( .•■ not seem just and e<;'iitable to give tho.se men licenses for a yeai- and then take
away their business. It appears to nie they should Ik allowed to run out their year; if
not, i'econq)ense should be made them for the balance of the time.
34080. Have you considered at all the (pu'stion of the encouragement <if the c(tn-
suniption of light wines and beers in preference to heavier li<juors'/ — I have not.
JOHN A. .MAOOXALIt, M.IX,
follows : —
of IJrandon, on l)eing duly sworn, dejioscd ,is
vou a giaduate ; Of Trinitv CoUey-e, Toronti
lii/ Jndije McDonald:
:U0S1. Of what college ari
am also .^r.K.C.S.
.'UOS"J. How long have you resided in Manitoba? — Nine vears.
.'}40S;5. How long iiave you resided in liraiidon ,' All that time.
.■t40iH4. From what province did you come/ From Ontario.
;{40Sr). From what county? -I came from St. Catharines, in F.incol
.■i4(l<sr). During the pei'iod of your residence in Hrandon, liave y(
change in the social customs of the j)eople in regard to the us(' of intoxi
d I
— No, I di "ot think tht^i'e has been any.
Stki'iikn Clkmknt.
I came liere aft»'r the boom
n
count v.
)U
noticed
;inv
IC.
(ting liqu
irs
d
ivs.
208
.hi-
lt siR'li a
riim the
ter!--Tt
('11 take
vt'iir ■. it'
Itii, iiiiii
Itv.
lii'i'tt
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
34087. J)<> you tind tliat tlie people here arc .solicr jiiul hiwaliidiiii; poople? — Very
much so.
.'540^8. Have you oljserved whether the license hiw is t'airly well observed! — I
think it is well observed.
.'HOi^i). Have you reason to suppose that there is any illicit sale ot' liipior in JJran-
don? — At tlu^ present time I have no idea of any liipior bcini; sold outsich' of lii'ensed
places.
.'HODO. Ha\e you had, in the course uf your medical pi'actice, any reason to suppose
that the li(juoi's consumed are impure ami adulterated? — Yes.
:540'.)1. Do you refer to importe<l liquors f — T refer to C'anadian li(|Uors.
.■i40!)2. What is the trouble about them,' — 1 cou'd not say what tlie ti'oul)l(^ is, buti
some of them arc very weak. The wiiisky that is supposeil to be impoi-tcd is adulter-
ated with water. There is ,•" icjrid taste to the whisky. The brandy presi'ribed by
me for my patients and obtained by them was very jioor, unless they got Hcnncssy.
.S40!t"2«. Are those liquors impoiled f — They an; made heie,
.■{40!).S. Are they supposed to be imported? -They are supjiosed ' j be imported.
.'UODl. We have had evidence before the Connnission that a certain class of brandy
is imported from Furope and sold at wholesale in Canada for •■?!. 10 a case, each case
containin*.' tw(j dozen bottles. That price includes the liipior, tl>" bottle, tiie straw cov-
ering, the capsule, the label, the cork, the packane and the freight from Kurope, and the
liijuor is solil at !<1.40 [ler case of two dozen bottles in Canada. Could you hope at. such
a price to obtain pure brandy? — Certainly liOt
."5409."). Have you e^■e!• (Considered the i uestion of the treatment of th.; p(;rsistent
drunkard, the man who goes from the police court to the jail for short teniis and back
again? — We have a tew here.
.S409(). Ts tiiat a wise course to pui'sue, or would it be better to enac* a law to
place such men in an inebriate asylun- ? — Those people are disided into two or three
classes. I have patients admitted to the hospital, who have coiii(> to me and askeii me
to have them interdicted; and I have known two or three to be interdicted and never
take a drink during the whole term of their interdiction. There are some, on the ether
hand, who '.'ig so hard for drink, after tlu^y had been interdicted, tiiat the interfiiction
is of no use, for they will get li(pior .somewhere. That class of men should be contineil
in inebriate asylums.
.■(4097. Have you considered the advisability of enc(/uraging the use of liglil wines
aiid beers with a view to diminishing the use oi the lucavier li(piors ? - Yes.
:U098. Have you considei'ed the (juestion of prohibition? — In the first pluci^, I do
not know what prohibition is.
.■M0!:'9. 1 mean the j)rohibition of the manufacture, imiHirtation and sale of intoxi-
riifing li(|U'ivs f(>r bexerage jiurposes, and allowing their use for medicinal and sacra-
mental purposes. '>f course under such prohil)iti(ni a man could not liaxc li(|iiors in his
own house .'-—Certainly. ,
:i410U. That is national prohibition as asked for in this Dominion. Do you think
'•uch a law would be advis.-ible? 1 do not think it is practicable.
;U10I. D(! you think it could be enforced?- -]So. .\ continental law n!ij;li; be
enforced.
•'UlO'i. You refer to a law proliibiting the manufacture on the continent? — Yes.
.'i410."J. AVith the great length of sea coast, with vessels constantly arriving, do you
liilieve that continental prohibition could 1 nforced ? I do not think it is possible to
■iitirely prohibit the sale or use of liipiors.
."'lilOl. What is the etl'ect on a community of ha\ingon the statute-book a law that
is ]i(;i\sistently and ilagrantly violated?—! think it has a demoralizing etlect on the
loinimmity.
•'MIO."). You mean on tiio ])ublic conscience?. — Yes. I think it is liable to turn our
iiMTage citizen.s, or at h^ist a jiroportion of them, into illi'Mt dealers.
."lllOti. Do you think ii such a. law were iias-.:ed and then flagrantly and persistently
\iolated, it would be an educator for good? — Ye.s, for go(jfl.
.'14107. In what way? — I think if a majority of the people aiMs against drinking,
Miinc people will go with the majority, (juite a few will be so intlueuced. If men know
21—14**
808
I
!;ti
\ 1
'lil'
'! '■(
\t
III!
I
i
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
^
that the sentiment of the country is for prohibition, many of them wlut take drink now
will not ta.^e drink under other ciicumstances.
,'U108. Is that the way it would 1)0 hen.'ticial? — Yes.
34109. And you do not think that it could be practically enforced ? — No.
34110. Do yoil think ii, would be advisable to grant compensation to brewers and
(Hstillers for loss of plant, in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law?
— They have bern recognized by the law, and to come down and say that they will not
carry on their business any longer would certainly be unjust. I think if a prohibitory
law were passed, they should be a lowed time in which to change their distilleries into
otlier manufacturing establishments and to make other investment-i of their capital.
They should obtain fise or ten years time in which to make those changes,
341 1 1. We liave had evidence given by a reverend gentleman frmi his point of view,
that in the event of the passage of such /i law, it would be reasonable that men in the
trade whose licenses have not expired siioulfl rceive remuneration lor loss of business
during the balance of the year or term, or tlv \' should be allowed to run to the end of
their term (— l do not think that that is enough.
34112. You think that they should receive more, that is the licensed dealers?'
— Yes. If a man invests .^4,000 or §0,000 in the trade undei- tlie present lii-ense sys-
tem, I do not think it is suthcient to allow him the balmce of his licensi", say for six
months.
34113. Then you would allow him something for loss of investment I suppose?
— Yes, and allow liim an opi)oi'tunit\' to get into some other kind of business.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLnod:
34114. Why would you encoui'age the use of light wines and beers ?— Because I do
not think they ;ire at all detrimental to health.
34115. You think the eiicouragemen: of th' ir U'-e would practically do away with
the use of strong liquors ? — Yes. I cortitinly think so.
341 1(). Have you been in France I — Yes, for a short tint" only.
34117. it has b en claimed that the use of liglit wines by the people wvv. (juite com-
mon, tliat they form part of the daily foo I ? — Tiat is so.
34118. It is claimed that among ])eople under such circumstames there is very
little drunkenness ; \'et, against that statement, it is alleged that generally after a gene-
ration or m 111' there nas been an increase in tlie alcoholic habit. It is iKci-ssary to
state against that contention that some people urge that, the increased use of strong
liijuoi' is because of the lessened supply of li lit wines, on account of the damiige done to
the vines by the phylloX'i'a. Do you think the use of wines is evil, for N'-heii the supply
is dimiiii.shed the j)eople resort to string licpioi's : wfiuld it seem to indie ite that thei'e is
ail apjietite for stimulants that must be satisfied in some way .' — I understand that you
wish t i know whether I believe the us^^ of light wines creates and keeps up an appeute
for stimulants.
3411!). Yes. Tliat is a (piestion which is regulated by di'lerent ciivumstances. For
instance, the use of light wines in this country would be so expensive tliat I do not think
the use of them would ever be as general as in Paris and France, so 1 caiinoL exactly
answer that <|Uestion.
34120. You think the general use of light wines is scarcely applicable to our condi-
tions? — I do not think it is. Of course, as regards light lieers it is a dill'erent iii;'tter.
34121. As a practising physician, have you observed whether the use of intoxi-
cants is detrimental to health? — I certainly believe that the use of intoxicants in excess
is detrimen al to health.
34122. Is the habitual use of intoxicants detrimental tt) health? — I do not know
wliatyou mean by habituul use.
34123. Let me tell you what I mean : 1 mean the u.se of some intoxicant every day,
perhaps a glass of beer in the morning and at noon and at night, or a glass of wine with
au occasional g'ass of brandy, but not drinking to excess in the sense of getting half seas
over or anything of that kind, but the iMbitiial use of alcohol every day at home ? — I do
not think that a glass of beer or a gliisa of wine would cause the slightest damage to any
one.
John a. Macdonald. ''■
210
a
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
le I do
I licit' is
IlluU you
lices. For
^lot tliink
exactly
lur ciiudi-
It iiii'ttcr.
lif intoxi-
liu exL^ess
liot know
[very diO'
niie with
I half 8eii«
lie I— I do
l^e to any
34124. Have you noticed whether the habitual user confines himself to that, or
whether there is a stronj^ tendency to increase the use'?— I have never seen a man whom
I have known turn into a drunkard. The drunkards I have seen have been ready made.
I have never seen the process of incubatiun.
.■5412"). Do you think they were born that way ? — I thijdv there is an element of
truth in that ; I think it is an inherited complaint.
.■J4126. Have you noticed whether th(^ children (jf liabitual users are more likely in
any dej^ree to become users in a lar;4<'r degree than their parents? — No. I may (juute
my own family in that regard. Aly father also hail whisky in his house ; thei'e were
seven boys, and none of us have drunk to exct;ss, and wi! can either take it or leave it
alone. I have left it alone, and have nevei' taken a di'iiik tV)r two or thi'ee yeai's at a
time, and I do not know that I have e\er been the worse foi' licjuor.
34127. Were you the better or worse during the time you prohibited yourself? —
T do not think I was as well, if I tell the honest truth.
.'54128. You thiidv your general health was not as good ? —I do not think i was tpnte
as bright, although 1 must say tl at I do not drink li(|Uof at any time sutlicient to
stinudate me. I take a glass of bt n; or if late at night I come home tired, I take a
glass of whisky and water. 1 am not, however, a haliiluul user of it.
34129. You spoke of some people being ready nuide with an inherited appetite for
alcohol. That appetite most surely was not an oi'iginal one ? — That is, of course, open
to discussion.
34130. Would not that be a matter of heredity at any rate ?— Tlieri^ ai'e some people
who must do things out of order. I remember a man who smoked to excess if he had
nothing to drink. He was a practising physician, arul sinnetimes he would take a little
chloroform. Tt seemed that he was bound to ilo something out of the common.
.34131. 1 suppose that would not be to his benetit?- No.
.'54132. Then you do not think it injures a man to use alcijliol modi'i'ately ? — It does
not.
34133. Take a man with a severe fevei' ; has such a patient any better chance of
recovery if he happens to be a total abstainer ? — 1 do not thiidv a total abstaimi- has
any advantage over a man who has taken litjuor in moderation during his life ti
.341.34. Do you think the bar-room is a necessary institution ?---N).
341.3."). Do you think that it would be a good thing in the interestof the comnuuuiy
to abolish the bar-room ! — -Yes. Looking at it from my jioint of view, no stimulant
should b<> furnifJhed without food.
■■)41.3t;. You mean as part of the daily diet ? — Yes, if taken at all.
34137. Do you think the ]ieople who do not take it are better or worse without it?
— 1 know .some men who would l.>e in better health if they took stimulants from time to
lime.
.34138. Would they be few or many? — They would form a very large nnnority.
By Jud(je McDonald:
34139. Speaking as to the question of jicisons taking alcohol habitually ; are there
nut tliousaiifls of people who take a glass of ale or a glass of wine and never go beyond
tli.it '. I suppose so.
31110. Is it not true, as a matter of history, that in l-" ranee for generations, for
hundreds of years, the jieople have been drinking light wiiujs?-— 1 sup}ios(! such has been
the case.
341 11. Do you find that the use has been pioducti\ e of bad residts ? — Yin ordinaire
is uv(3(l everywhere. Thei'e is a matti't' in regard to prohibition I should lik(^ to make a
rrinark about. A jirohildtion vote has been recently given in this Province. Although
I briieve that tlu^ ])eoj)le who voted for prohibition, at least the majority of them,
lit'lieved that prohibition for the whole Dominion would be a good thing, I do not believt!
that half of the people who voted at tin; plebiscite believed in jn'ohibition for the
Pidvince.
By Rev. Dr. Mc.Leod:
•3U42. On what do you base that ojiinion ?~1 do not .see how ])rohibition in the
province could l)e carried out, if it cut od' the revenue from the traflic. Under such con-
i !l
n-i4j
211
**
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
)«'
ditions I do not hoc. how the provisions of sucli a law coidd lie c-iiriicd out. If tlu> Act
were <i(Mn'iiil all over the Doininion, tlicii, of course, the Doiiiiiiioii jia\in;,f power to tax
otlier articles could iiiaki^ u() the deticit ; but take local prohihitioii in Manitoha, itcouhl
Manitoba would reduc<' the federal revenue ?-
not he carried out.
.■V414;{. Do you tliink prohibition in
I do not know about that.
Jii/ Jiuhji: McDonald :
.'U III. Till! rcivenui" at jjresent obtain(?d from ]i(|U(»r taxes would have to l)e rai.sed
in aoww other way, I suppose? -1 do not know Ikjw it could be done.
3414."). Have th(^ people of Manitoba decided thi.s question by the jilebiscite ? —
There was a meeting hei'c, and the President of the Prohibition Society, .Mr. ^fulock,
was present. I asked, " Is this prohibition for the whole Dominion or for Manitoba? "
He said ; " The idea is to get the vote of the peojile of the (hllercnt ])rovinces by a
plebiscite, and as soon as the people have declared in favour of prohiljitiou, we can then
go to the Fe(h!ral (jrovernnient for a general jjrohibitory law." So, I say this is an
indication that the jieople do not want prohibition in Manitoba alone.
.■{4140. So ^[r. Mulock laid it down that, when all the provinces of the Dominion
had decided in favour of prohibition by a plebiscite, the piohibitionists could go to the
National Government for a national pr(»hil)itory law?- The point I make i.s this : It is
generally taken that the people of Manitoba want prohibition for the province, because
there is a feehng that way ; but T think the large majority of the j)rovinces do not care
for prohibition, and 1 think the largt; majority of prohibitionists would not care for it
in Manitol)a if in the rest of the Dominion the trattic were free.
.■}4147. Do you believe that when the peoi)le of Manitoba voted at that plebiscite,
they voted in sober earnest ? The as.sertion has been made tliat they did so ; if that
were the case, and the people were anxious for proliibition, would they not be willing. If
necessary, to add to their provincial taxation I I do not believe that the majority (jf the
people want i)rohil)ition in Manitoba and the rest of the Dominion to bi; free, for this
reason, it would be a very great expen.se to prevent the entrance of liipior into this jmt-
vinee, surrounded as it would be by provinces wher'e there would be free trade. I
believe that if the people were to vote again, and tiie question were to be put before
them, they would not vote; foi' prohibition.
•"54148. Do you believe that their principles are so weak that they would allow their
feelings to interfere with them r I think that a very large imnd)er \rfno xoted for it
would look at it in that light. If it did not aH'ect the revenue of the pi'ovince, 1 think
they would be in favour of trj'ing it.
3414!). Did not some people vote tV)r prohibition because they wished to get rifl of
the evils of drink, and thought that this might be a way of glutting rid of them ? 1 voted
myself with that idea. If it were a ipieslion between high licens(>, so that a man earn-
ing §1 or §1.25 ]ier day^ would be unable to obtain sulHcient driid< to make himself
drunk, and prohibition, ] would vote for high license, because that is j)racticable and
prohibition is n.it.
341;'')0. So you voted for prohibition on account of its principle? — Yes; I should
like to see less drinikenness.
341;')1. Do you think that others \oted for it for the same reason ] — Yes.
34ir)'J. You have had experience of the Scott Act, 1 believe?— No; but I have sticii
man J' results of it. T hold that a man who wants a drink should be able to get it. 1
refused to sign a petition for local option when it was brought round.
."HI").'!. It has been stated in some sections of the ])rovince, where the Scott Act has
been in force, and when^ it is ke])t in force by tiie repeated efforts of the people, that the
sj'steni by which men who ai\' in the trade are lined for the first offence .i^oO, but which
never goes beyond the first offence, was e<iuivalent to a system of iiigh license. These
fines go into the jiublic treasury, and thus save the people from direct taxation. T need
hardly ask whether you are in favour of a system of that kind? -Tt should be done on
business principles or not at all; if prohibition is intended, it should be jn'ohibition.
I'^roin my point of view 1 prefer high license, because that is practicable, while theothei
is a farce.
34154. Have you any suggestions you desire to offer to the Commission ? — No.
J. A. Macdonald.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
lii'.v. W. H. .JENKINS, of l!r;iii(liiii, un licini;- duly sworn, deposed ii.'i follows ; —
Bij Jndyr Mr Donald :
.'ili")."), W'itli wliat church are you eoniu'otcd ? I am pastor of the I'aptist Church
licic.
•"iH."ifi. How loiij; have yo^i^'sidcd ill Maiiitolia? Two years last .Tune.
■'i tl")?. Have you been all that time in Jtr'audou .' Yes.
•■U158. Where did you reside befoic- that time? In Cunil)erland County, No\a
Scotia.
.■54ir)9. Cumberland County is, I iindeisi. '111(1, under the Scott Act?— Yes.
.'<n<iO. How lon.if did you reside there ! I was there at two different times, the
lirst time for si.x months, and then for one year.
•■{41()1. Was that just before you came here" -Just before I came here.
."it 1 (5:2. h\ what ])lace did you reside ', At Ad\ocate.
.'iH(').'{. Did you tiiid the Scott .Vet work well there? — They kept it enforced pretty
well. We had some ditliculty to iiiana;j:e the \-essels, but the Act was pretty well en-
foired at that end of the county.
•"UlB-l. How far wei'e you from Parrsboro' ? — About ;iO miles.
•'UHi;"). Do you know anythin;; about the state of tliinj,'s there? — jjcfore I came
here I was there, holdiiii,' a meeting,' at one; of the churches, and at that time some of the
lii|iiur dealers, or at least one of them, had got .some of the children drunk. That raised
ya ^reat indignalion. The .Alayor called a iiuiss iDceting, and the jn'ople rallied and
seemed determined to put the traltic down.
■'itlGfl. Did they succeed in doing so? — It was towai'ds the end of the winter, and
1 left Parrsboro" after a short time. I nevei' ii)(|uired further about it, and it has never
come to my notice. The mass of the people seemed determined t<i jiut it down.
•"MIOT. Was the one who sold to the children a man engaged in the trade.' — If my
iiiMiiory serves mo rightly, it might have been some such man, but 1 could not be
positive.
•'UKIS. What about the dilliculty in presenting liipior being carried in ?- It is a
great seafaring community. There are a great many captains there and they lia\'e
schooners, and of course they se(! their friends foi' a while. \ great many of them, as
<lo all sea-men, drink more or less. They would take a bottle along with them and
have a time.
34169. Do you think lhey brought the liipior with them on the ves.sels ? — That
seemed to be the way. Any trouble we had about that time arose from that cause.
;U17U. ^^'e have receixed tiie deliverance of the liaptist (Miurches in the Maritime
Prfivinces. Are there any speoiAdelixeiances from the l$aptist Church of this Pi-ovincc?
A'es ; it was brought beforti^fe Convention annually and this mattei' was bi'ought
before the delegates.
■'>4171. Have you a cojn' of the deli\«'ranee ? Yes. (Ajipendix 5.)
■'!H7-'. What is your opinion I'cspcetiiig prohibition : ai-e you favourable to it ? — I
am strongly in favour of it.
■'UlT.'i. Are vim ojiposed to a license law?
•'in 74. Hut as between a license law ,uid
pri'fer? On mo 'al principles it seems to me that tlit; licensing of the trallie is wrong, and
iliiiough that seems good enough ground to stand on, yet it seems to me that any thing
tliat will lessen i\\v liipior trallie is a good thing.
■U17r), Then, in principle, you consider the licensing of the traiHe is wrong, but you
"■mid not favour untrammelled sale? ^Yes.
• !I17<'). Of two evils you would choose the least ! -It seems about on the liiu' of
lici'iwing jiro.stitution, as is done in some places south.
■I'll 77. Do you think they stand on the same i^latform ?- 1 could not be induced to
liriiise prostitution on any account. This li<|uor business is a great moral evil.
■ill 7)^. Have you considered the (|ucstion of gi'anting compensation to brewers and
ili'iillers for loss of plant, in the event of the passage of a general prohibitory law ? — I
lia^i' studied the ijuestion as it was brought up in I'^ngland some time ago. While ther
—" 213
s
As comjiared with prohibition, I am.
intrammelled sale, which would you
Liquor Traffic — ^Manitoba.
h <
is tlie principle of fairness, and I suppose we Imve to he fair even to those engaj^ed in
this husiness, yet the men entered into a liusiness which has l)een one thai destroys tlie
interests of the country in various ways, and w liether in such a case as that, it would
be rif;ht to make compensation, is a (|uestion.
34179. We have heard a witness to-day who declared that, in his opinion, it would
1)0 right in case of the passage of a prohibitory law to renmneratt; those who were
licensed, for the Imlance of tiie lic(Mise year 1 — I have iAird that statement made and
similar statements made, and 1 do not know whether if the matter was put before me
for my vote, I could say that those people had a right to compensation or not.
.'54180. Take the matter in this way : A man takes a license from the Government
to sell intoxicating beverages for a year. Within six months the Government having
expended that fee, closes up his business. Would you in such a case say that the man
has not a right to receive compensation? — He went into that business against the wishes
of those pettple, who, in my opinion, have correct views in regard to this matter, and he
has injured the connuunity in various ways in the meantime. He has taken money
and given no recompense, except in a way that it would injure the conununity that used
the stuff. I am afraid that as regards the li({Uor men, I would not be willing to give
them compensation of any kind.
34181. Have you considered the (|uestion of the treatment of the persistent
drunkard? — Do you mean anything in connection with the ''gold cure " treatment?
.■U182. I understand that the "gold cure" systeu) is a voluntary matter with a man
or his friends ? — Yes.
.'54183. Take the man who is ct)nstantly before the police court and sent to jail for ,
short terms of imprisonment, would it not be better to place him in an inebriate asylum,
with a view to his reformation and to keep him away entirely from drink ? -It is a very
hard matter to say what is best in a case of that kind ; sometimes the person is interdicted
in such a ca.se. I Jiavo known cases where that sttems to be helpful. But as regards the
population .scattei'ed throughout the countiy, this is a dilKcul*^ matter.
34184. It has been stated in evidence before this Connnission that sometimes there
ai'e men who do little else than go to the police court and from the police court to the
jail aiul round again. Have you knoAn cases of that kind ? -I have not known cases of
that kind. Men have told nie that when they were interdicted they could obtain liquor
whenever they wanted it ; at least one man has told me that.
B>/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
34185. Speaking about the license system, and the possibility that you may under
some circumstances favour it : is it a fact that you favour it because of the prohibition in
the licenst! system rather than the permission that the license law gives any one to
sell ?— I suppose it is scarcely neces.sary to answer that question after what I have said.
Certainly it can only be that feature of the law wliicl^^ould lead me to look upon it
with favour.
.■?418(). Ts it a fact that there are certain prohibitive provisions in the license law,
and is it that cii-cumstance which would induce you, in the event of not getting prohibi-
tion, to favour a license law, namely the amount of prohibition contained in it?— Yes;
if I favoured it at all, it would certainly b(^ from that stand])oint.
34187. You lived in New Brunswick at one time? — Yes.
341S8. In St. John, I believe ] In (Queen's County.
34180. What law was in operation there,' -The Scott Act lattei'ly. Before that
time, there was pi'ohibition under the old law, uniler the Magistrates I believe. For the
last fifty odd years ther(> has been practically )«rohil)ition.
3411)0. You mean the people refused to grant licenses? — Yes.
341'.U. How did it alFect the county, beneficially or otherwise? — Beneficially.
341!)!.'. Ts Queen's County strong for pi-ohibition ?-- Yes, in regai'd to any intoxicants
being used there. In travelling in steamboats, I noticed the ditl'ei-ence. The river boats
generally had a bar. The steamboats in our county were not allowed a bai- ; tliere was
no attem])t to vend li<|Uor there in the sunnner.
341!>3. Then the Scott Act, so far as Queen's County is concerned, works well ? — It
works very succc^ssfully. I never saw a man drunk until I was seventeen years old.
Rev. W. H. Jenkix.s. -~-^
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
34194. Then you lived iutlie rural di- triots ?— Yes.
34195. Of course, tliere is no drink there? — No.
34196. And no sale?— No.
34197. You have lived only two years in Manitoba, and T understand you liavc
never been in the Territories? — Not particulai'ly. I have been as far as Moosoniiu on
the train, and I lieard some comments from people who hiul l)een further on the lino;
but I saw notiiing myself. Tn Cumberland there were some attempts made to sell.
We the temperance people, would let them know that sale would not be allowed, and
we had no ditliculty in putting down the sale.
34198. Have you observed whether there is considerable temperance sentiment
here? — Yes; while there seems to be a great deal of drinking among young men, the
community is strongly in favour of prohibition. In passing through the streets in the
evenings you will see that the bar-rooms are open to the street, and you will see crowds,
especially of young men.
34199. This is a country of j'oung men, I believe? — Yes.
34200. Do you think the sentiment in favf>ur of general prohibition is growing? —
Y'es, although I am not in a position to fully answer that (juestion. The ditlerent
Protestant churches have a very strong hold on the piovinceandall those denominations
arc very pronounced in their opinions, with the exception of the Episcopal Church, and
I am not in a ])osition to know anything in regard to it, although I know that some of
its leading members are strongly in favour of temperance.
By Judge McDonald ;
34201. I am a member of the Episcopal Church, and T hope in using the term,
'• some of its leading meml)ers are in favoui' of temperance,'' you did not mean to say that
the Church of England as a whole is not in favour of temperance. Do you not mean in
favour of prohi))ition ? — Tt was on account of my not knowing the views of the otiier
part.
34202. It is not a fact that the term that you meant to use was ]irohii>ition ; or
are prohibition and temperance with you interchangeabli! terms? — I will put the word
prohibition there. I did it in my own mind when I sj)oke. 1 do not wish to make
reilcctions on othei- connnunions in regard to whicli I am not in a position to say who
might and who might not be in favour f)f prohibition. I would be very soriy to speak in
regard to that mattei- : but when speaking as I do now, I want to speak gravely.
III
ALFRED S. B0IS8EAU, of Brandon, hotel-keeper, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
By Judge MrDonaJd :
.'54203. How long have you resided in ^Manitoba ? — Tw(>lve years.
34204. How long have you lived in I'randon? — Ten years.
34205. 'Where did you five before?— At ()tt',wa.
34206. When you came first to .Manitoba where did you stop? — At Wi.inipcg
34207. Did you go to Winnipeg from Ottawa? — Yes.
34208. Did you keep a hotel in Winnipeg?- No, l)ut I was in ■''. Hotel business.
34209. "Were you employed in the same business in Ottawa? — Yes.
.'51210. And in Brandon you are a'so in the hotel business ?"A''es.
34211. Take the lirstquestion as tothe habits of the people here : ha\!' yoM noticed
any change in the social habits of the people of the city so far as regards drinking
intoxieiiting licjuors as a beverage? — They have greatly improvecl since I came here.
The habit;, art' certaiidy better than when I came here tirst.
34212. \^ou have li\ed under the Manitoba License Act I suppose? Yes.
34213. AN'hat 's the auiount of fee vou have to pay?- The fee is altogether iibout
.?250 a year.
215
i:^
I-
-i!
"■^
Liquor Traffic — Manitoba.
■'<4214. I[ave tlu'ru Itei'U tVoiii tiino to time aiiieadinoiits iiiiuli- in the Ai't since you
came hero? — F l)eli«n'i^ it lias Im'cii anieiidt'd several times since I have hc'ii in tlie business.
342ir). F[av(' you l)een ahlt; to ohserve tb-; provisions of the Act ?- Yes.
.■!42l<>. Ila\(i vou reason to l)eli(>ve tliat there is any illicit sale in IJrandon? — T
believe there is not.
."54217. .So far as you are able to judye, and from your experiences of liiiuors fur-
uishcfl by iiotels and licensed places, are they of pure character or adulterated?—!
believe thoy are pure.
.'5421f<. r suppose you do not import any lii|unrs from Europe yourself? — No; T
take li(]Uors in l)ond here, out of the ori<,'inal packa^'es from the old country.
.■U21l>. l>o you j^et any orij^inal old countiy jiackages (--I i^ettheni from the whole-
sale (h'alers in XN'innipej,' and IJrandon.
.'14220. I'^'om your experience, do you favour the use of light wines and beers in
])ref(M'iMict! to the heavier liipiois, and do you encouraji'e the use of them? --Of coui'se if
one or the other class has to be done away with, certainly li,i,'iit wines and iieers ai'(>
better for the people, if they will only come down to them.
-■{4221. Have you seen anything of the operation of a prohibitoiy law ? -No.
•54222. J)o you consider such a law to be practicable and cajiable of enforcement ?
— 1 do not, conscientiously sjieaking.
•■t422.'{. ila\'e you considered the question of high license : do you think it would bo
adxantageous to increase the amount paid for license and mak(> the numbei' of places
wiiere licpior is sold vei'y small ? — Yes, and I suppose it could be practically enforced.
.■(4224. And action should be taken to see that no illicit sale is taking place? Yes.
•'11220. In case of the passage of a genei'al prohibitory law, do yo 1 think that
brewers and distillers should be remunerated for their })lant which would bo I'endered
useless? Decidedly.
■'5422(1. As an hotel-keeper, can you tell the Commission how the adoption of a
prohibitory law would att'ect your business? It is stated that hotel men are unable to
fui-nish theii' guests with meals, unless they have license to sell licpior ; and on the other
hand, it is contende(l that this is not a good system, that each jierson siiould j)ay a
j)roper amount for ids meal, and they in .some cases get it for much less than it is worth.
Speaking as a hotel-keeper, what is your view of this matter? I woidd I'ertainly say
that the provision department docs not pay and you havet ) de[)end on the other depart-
ment, and it is necessary to have that ilepai'tment in order to keep up a good house.
If you could get higher prices, of course that would be a dill'erent ipiestion. 1 may say,
however, that in my experience the piovision and boarding department is, as a rule,
run at a loss.
.'54227. What are the points of ditliculty about it? 1 do not think the people \\ish
to pay proper prices.
.T422iS. Ts it a (|uestion of not knowing how many to provide for? Xo.
.'54220. Knowing the supplies ie(|uired and knowing how many to provide foi' anil
ha\ ing {)i'ocuivd the su{)plies, do you not charge enough ? -It is all right about charging,
but the diHiculty is to get the price. Y'^ou cannot obtain over a certain jii'ice, and it
must be the populai' pi-ice.
.'542;50. Tlien the pricf, is not sullicient to enable you to run the house? Quite .so,
taking the boarding department, the rent and the othei' expenst's. You must have
prolitfrom some department of the business, and the hotel-keeper obtains it from the bar.
By Jier. Dr. McLeod :
.342.'?!. Do you mean that people who do not go to the bar do not p.-iy for what they
get? I certaiidy do.
.'542.'52. Then why do you not make them pay for their meals? - They will not pay
for them.
34233. Thei'c is, \ suppose, a certain price o\ er which the people will not go ?^It
is the po|)ular sentiment, T suppose.
342.'54. Do you refer tti total abstainers? — Where yiiu would get one to pay ninety-
nine would linnt themselves,
AiiKRKi) S. Bois.s1';au.
lie
il3
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
f -Yos.
-Till' rt'CL-ii)!,-
ut
arc
I In'
ill
tl
K'V .'- ^'oll
li('\(' so.
Urandoii ? —
-As Icilicr iiS
;U:.'.'ii"). Tfikiiii,' total at>staiiu'i's wlio aic j)ati'niis of your Imlcl : out of a certain
iiuiiiIkt of <,'ucsts tlioi'c^ will ho a i)io|ioi'tiori wliodonot patidiii/.c tiic liar.' I am takini^
iliat (lc])artinciit as afjainst the other (lepaitineiits.
:i4L'.'5<). Do y(jii keep separate accounts tor them? — Certainly.
.'U'_';{7. Then you know what are the receipts and expenses of thi' hotel pi'oper, and
what are the receipts and e.xpi'nses of the bar pi'opcr / -Yes.
.'{1"_';58. And you know tiuit the hotel propel' does not pay of itself
3tl!."i!). And what part of the prolits are ohtainoil from the har ?
the har ^'o to helj) to make up the difVei'cnce.
.■{■Jl'IO. Are there no liotels without l)ars that pay : what iiotcN
cannot show me a single one.
.■J42U. Y'ou have stated that tiiere is no illicit sale in IJrandon .'
34242. J)o you think the licensees sell after hours and on Sunday
.\o. 1 do not.
•■il24."{. Do you helicNc that prohihition would not he j>ractical)le .'
li(|Uor is manufactured, it cannot he prohihited.
•■il24L The prohihition ipiestion means the pi'ohihition of tlunnanufact ure. importa-
tion and .sale of li(|uor ? --You cannot legislate in favour of one-half of the peojjle aiid
against the other half. Such a thing is against the freedom of man. My imj)ression is
that you cannot legislate as to what we shall do. I helit'\e in moral suasion. \ think it
would do more good foi' temperance i)eople to establish such an institution as that at
Dwight than all th(> talk of the temperance societies.
.■5424"). Then, you think it is well to keep a business established to produce men to
:.'o to an institution like the Dwight Institu'/iOa? — It is not necessary that people should
do so. If people make themselves drunkards, there should he places to which they could
be sent.
.■5424(1. 8upj)osing the .Maiutolia Legislature next session should enact a prohibitory
law, would it be wrong ?— No, for they liav(> a perfect right to legislate a wrong.
34247. And you do not consider that it would be wrong! — It would bean injustice
to some people. I do not thiidv the plebiscite was .1 fair vote of the people. Why I say
so, is because I have heard iiundreds say that they would not vote as they did if
another vote was taken.
3424<^. There was a majority of 12,000 given in favour of prohibition? — if that
\ote were taken again, the result would be different; a great many did not understand
what they were voting for.
.■54249. Suppose the majority of the people desire the iein<ivai of tin I ic(>nse system,
do you think it is right to establish a license system against their will ? If a prrhil)itory
A<'t were j)assed by the Legislature, it would be supposed to be all right, but I do not
iliink that such an Act could be enforced.
•■i42.")0. Why not, if the whole of the people desired such a law ; would not the
people obey it? — They would not.
,.t
i ht
The Connnission adjourned, to meet at Kegina, N. W. T.
217
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
MINUTKS OF EVIDKXrC.
NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES.
JJKdINA, ()ctol)er ;nst, 1M'J2,
Tlie Hoyal Coniinission on tlic Litiuor Tnitlic met liero this day.
Present :
Judge McDonald. Rev. Dh. McLeod.
U r
Juu(iE McDonald, in openln;,' the proeee(linij;s, said : Tluci! nf tlic C;nni"iis-
sioners are unable to 1)6 present. Sir Joseph Hickson is unavoidably detained in Montreal;
^^fr. (tigault, Deputy Minister of Agriculture for the Province of Quebec, is also detained
by his departmental and other duties ; aii<l at the last moment Mr. Clarke of Toronto, a
iiiomber of the Ontario Legislature, is detained, and is unable to j(jin us on this tour, ns
he expected to do. The Rev. Dr. McLood and myself will proceed with the investigation
in the North-west Territories, and will examine such witnesses as come before us. Wo
will follow the rule w(^ have hitherto pursued of calling as the lirst \vitn<'ss the Mayor
iif the town and then other ollicial witnesses.
rio\. HU(JH RTClt.VllDSON. of Regina, Senior and Presiding Justice of the
Supreme Court of the North-west Territories, un being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; —
By Judge McDonald :
.'U251. How long have you I'esided in the North-west Teiritories? — Ovei' 10 year.s.
.■M"J-")2. During that time ha\e you le-iided in any other place than Regina ! My
lust six months were spent at Fort Pclly which was the seat of government in lf<"t3 and
li^77. From 1877 to 18S;? I was at Rattlefoi'd, which was the .seat ()f government;
from 188."> T have been in Regina.
.")4l'.").">. You came from Ontario, T suppose, in early days. Fi'nm what county ? —
Fmm Oxford.
•■!l2r)4. In that county in those days, I suppose, a license law was in force? — Yes.
•'i42o5. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law except in the North-west
'territories ? — No.
."H'-'ilG. When you first came to the North-west Teriitories, what system respecting
the sale of liiiuors was in force? — Limited prohibition. We had limited prohibition up
to (|uite a recent date.
■'U2-")7. Was limited prohibition the permit .system ? Was that system in force
when you first came here? — W^s.
■'U^ns. Wei'e p»'rmits granted by His Honour the Lieutenant-Ooxcrnor ? - Yes.
•'ifL'.")9. So far as your experience goes, how did you find that system work I — I
thought it worked very well.
819
I,
V J
I
',i
Li(i\ioi' TiJinic — Noirh-wt'st 'IVrritorics.
.Tf200. |>i(l ymi m'i' iniifli (Iriiiikt'imcss ,' - Nii. I uuylit to fx|iliiiii tu tlif (^llnnlission
that, cxi'i-iiiiri;,' tlii'<iii),'l> my ollicial (liilicM \ \\ii\i' iiid xcry litll<' t'.\|K'iii'nce and luivo
Ix'en viTV little nvi'i- tin- Ti'iTitnrit's, luul I lia\f nnt had the iipportiiiiity tliat sitnir
others haM- liad of iioticiri;j thnst- iiiatti-i's. '
.'It'.'til, No diiulit yuii have liad fX|M'ri('ii('<' ot' till' iirai'liial workiiv^ of the system I
— To explain niyselt' inoic i-leaily, I slioidd perhaps stale thai I have liardly heeii into a
hotel, I'estaniant oi' saloon, and know nothini;' of I heif working,'. l''oi' a few weeks I
Ixtunled at a hotel here, when there was no other plaee to j,'o to ; l»nl previous to \f<H',\
there was no sim h thin;,' as an hotel in the eonntry, or in that part of the eountry in
which I was then liv in;.'.
•"> tl'fJ'J. ^'cll| had, then, to i^i'l aeeoniiriodation wiiere yoii <'ou!d .' — Yes, generally on
tlie prairies in trawllnii;.
.■l4l!t'iM. |)id parties in I hose da\ s lain;; li(|iior ficmi the ohlei' I'l-ovinces here '/ Very
little.
.'U'-'ttl. I suppose they ^ot licpior in mider the jierrnit system .' Yes, jfeiierally from
Winnipeif.
.') I ■_'•'>•">. Do yoii know anythin;,' as to how tin- law worked near the lioundaiy line
Ix'tween the I'nited Stat. 's and Canada.' I have had very little exjierience. with the
exception of travelling on the railway. I know vi'ry little alxail the south-west portion
of the country, and it W(Mild lie hotter for me t<» explain what part of the country I do
know, and that eouiiti'y we take in is from the present line of the Canadian I'ai'itie
l{ailway, .'KJU miles west u]i to Ivlmoiiton, taking across the country. 1 know nothing
of the Calgary country.
.'H^t'iti. Have you studied ihi' i|iiestion of prohihiflon '.' A'eiy little.
;542(i7. Have you cousidcred the (|uestion whether in case of the enactment of a
genei-al prohil)itory law, it would he just anil proper to grant compensation to lirewers
and distillers for loss of plant, etc. '. — No, 1 have not.
• ilL't, - |>() vdu consider yourself as (|ualilied to gi\e an opinion on that matter? —
No; 1 have not had an opportunity to inform myself.
34209. Taking your experience of the system under permits down to when the |"re.sent
system came into force, have you found any change in the liahits of the peo[ile .' -There
has not heen any time to observe any change during the past few months.
•">4l'7<l. Then you ha\c not noticed any dillerence ! I have not noticed any
ditFerence, hut I have not heen in the way of oh.serving any.
By li'er. Dr. M,-I.r<„l :
•■!1'_'71. I think 1 uiiderstond you to say that limiteil prohihition worked very
satisfactorily you thought .' Yes ; I think so uj) to the last few years.
'.Wll'l. Have you no detinite idea as to what it wjis like in late years'? — Only
what I have heard from hearsay. I have heard comjilaints of the system being abused
aiifl grossly abused.
'■Wll'-'t. That is the permit system? — Yes, the permit system. Also, that it was
not fairly carried out.
'.Wl~ \. Was it apparent to you, so far as your observation wi-nt, that there were
large (piantities of liipior brought into tin? Territories during late years? — I think so.
.34l'7"). And. conse(|uently more drunkenness and more disorder? — I have not had
an op) ortunity, as I have alrea'iy explained, of meeting much drunkenness ; but it is an
unmistakid)le fact that the i|uantities of li(|uor brought in vi'ry considerably increased,
and the population had not s > increased.
;54"27<j. You mean that the ratio of increase in lii|Uor was altogether be3'ond the
increa.se of pojiulation ? — 1 would rather (|ualifv that answer by saying that I had no
oppoi tunity of studying that ratio.
.■Ui.'77. I have here .some returns which show that in 1S,h:5 there were brought,
under pei-mit, into the Territories, (),7.'5(i^ gallons of litjuor ; in lf<90, 15;5,070i gallons,
which would he an increase of .'io per cent, while the populatiim assurerlly did not
increase that rapidly ? — No.
3427'<. Perh ips two and a halt" times? — You must bear with me when T say I have
not armed myself with those figures, and have no knowleclge of the quantities.
Hon. Hfoii RicnAUDaoN.
1-
67 Victoria,
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.1127'.'. I>i<l yiiu luificc an iiK'n-iisc in tlio discirdcrs, in s<» fnv as ilic)--i' matti rs rdini'
iinilci yinir kii'.wl«'ilj,'i', ilui'iii.; Iiitrr yrais .' Nn. f tliiiik liiiriri'^ tin- i'i yt'iiis witii
wliicii I liati tniliiwitii niiiiiiial iiHriu't-s, li<|iiiii' di I not tnnii an rl> iiifnt. in nini'c tliati
ten, or at till' ciulsjilc, twenty ciiscs.
.■Ul'.*'tJ. W'a^ that dinin^,' tin' wlutlcut' yuur jiidicia fX|iriiciKM' ,' \'(-i ; and none ot'
tliose ciiscH wen- of a serious natiirc.
.'U'Jf*!. Yoti tliiiik tlio time lias not 1 n sullicicnl to di'tfi-ii inr, or at It-ast for yon
todt'ti-i'Miiii)' as to the rrsidls of tlic wm kini; of t he present liei^ise law, as eiini|iare(l with
tlie |iioliil)ilory law in the 'I'ei lilories .' When 1 say so, yo,, must renienilx'i' that not, a
sini{le ease has eonie under my not iee of a criminal nal urc in which liijuor has formed an
element.
.■542>i"J. I wasahout to su!,'j,'t'st that your Honour should n'wf a hricf outline of the
|iro\isions of the lio-nse law .' I lui\e nol read it. Three of the menilH<rs of the llench
were memliers of the .\sseml)ly, uniler the style of ex|ierts, liut t her'e was such an outcry
a<{ainst ha\in;< them, without their heiii;; elected, that I'arliamenI in 1 S'.IU iemo\ ed
tlieiii ail I now the ImmIv is entirely le;,'islative. Siiiet- then the Le;{islature has held one
session and passed a law which has just come into force. So tai- I have not had occasion
to read i* ; hut I shall have occasion to reaii it, for cases will come liefore me in tlie
nature o :|)|ieals.
.■Ul'i"*.'!. Speakini; of criminal cases, you say that none lia\e come under yoiu' notice
of a .serious charactei' ,' -No, not of a seri(jus charactei'.
iUliiSI. lla\e any of them had the eh meiit of drink in them ! -Yes.
.'Ul'S't. l)o you refer t(t cases spread over the years or<loyoii r»'fertosorne particular
year
' — Thev have lieen durint' the six veai s I have heen here,
.'Ml'St'!. That is since 1SS:{ ! .Since lf<S:i, or ratluM' the nint? years 1 iiav(»hecn here,
1 should say. I think I might [lUt them within live or six years.
^iilii^T. That is you nn>an during the later years.' — Yes.
.■U'J88. So they have really occurred since lHS(i or 1H87 ? I think so. Of course,
if 1 were as! ,(l to give a detitiite answer, 1 might furnish the Cummission with more
ace u rat data
JJi/ Jnd<j<: McDonald :
.'54280. I u;id'rstood you to say that tli(> Ass"ml)ly held hut on eeting? — Yes,
on!}' one session ; at lea.st one particular session was ahoriise as far as legislation was
concerned.
;Ul".IU. That is since the new legislative system came into force? "S'es.
;542'.U. And the Legislature is made up of representatives of the people all over the
country '. — Yes.
."iilMfJ. The l^'gislature at its first meeting, then, changed the law from the old sys-
tem and brought in the license law? — Yes.
.{421)3. Which license law is now in operation ? — Yes.
JJi/ K>'v. Dr. MiLood:
•'i42!l4. Do you recollect whether the ipiestion of proliihition oi' license law was the
chief issue at that election? — I would not take it upon myself to answer deliniiely that
iiuestion.
221
s liiquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
- •
HAYTEH i{ '-ET), of liegina, Tnd an A<;;ent for Manitoba, Keewatin and the
Nortl:-\\ 'st TfiTitorit^s, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
Jiij Jiiil<je Mi'Donnhl :
3429"). How lung liave you resided in tlie Nortl.-west Territories 1 — Since 18S3.
■■U;!9(). Have you resideil II tliat time .u Kegina ? —This has been my hea(l(|uai'tei's.
.'?4:^!i7. How long have you ))een Indian Coinir.icsioner ? — Since lf*8.'5, at the time
Mr. Dewdney v\as appointed Governor.
.■542!l'^. What position did you occupy previous to that time? — I was Assistant
Connnissioner.
34'J'.M). Vou cii.me from the Province of Ontiirio, I believe? — Yes.
.■54.'500. Have you h;ul any experience of the working of a i)rohibitory law in any
other country thai, in the North-west Territories? — None whatever.
34301. Y'Ui liave seen tiie Xorth-west Teri'itories under a permit system and under
the license law since it was in force, conipaiatively speaking? — Yes.
34301*. It came into furce last .May, did it ni'it ? — Last May.
34303. How (lid you lind the prohibitory law work, accoriling to your expei-ience?
— ^Tt has worked very well ; latterly, not so well, however.
34304. What was the ti'ouble .' — There were too many peoi)le coming into the coun-
try, and lii|Uor wa- obtained too easily.
3430-'). Did you go south of the railway, towards the boundary of the I'nited
States, in the discliai'gi' of your duties ? -Yes.
34300. How did you tind the state of things in that section of the country, towards
the boundary of Canada and the United States?-- It was pretty bad there: I suppose as
bad there as any place else. The law was not adheied to there.
3430tH'. Mow was liipinr su])posed to l)e got into the country? — It was smuggled in
from *he United States to that section.
3i;)07. We have heard that thei'e was a large increase in the numl)er of permits
issued latterly. Was your attention called to that, and \vere you aware of the fact that
the number of permits issueil gradually inc:'eased ? — 1 noticed it.
34305. ])ii you know whether the ini-rease in the lunnber of ])ermits issued, and
the coiise(|uent iiicreas{> of li([uoi' brought into the country, tended to lessen tlie (juan-
tity smuguled into the country ?—^'aturally so.
3430'.). Do you know anything it' the i|uality of the licpioi' snmggled into the coun-
try'l- — It was \ery bad ; the liiiuoi' smuggled in from the Uidted States was {)articularly
bad. The liquor got from ihitisli Cc.lu .il)ia w'as the same kind of liquor that you would
get at the present time.
34310. Was it of the ordinar\- class used in the cou'.ti'v fvom which it was bi'ought 1
—Yes.
3431 1. Was the class brought in by peimits better ihan the class smuggled in from
the United States?— Yes.
343rj. ^\'as it a siuular class of liipior to that brougiit in under the licensi' law? —
It is bt ;ter now.
34313. Why? — The liiiuor binught in under the license law is better than that
which was smuggled in from the United States.
;>4314. Ha\e you noticed, since you came into the couiiti'v, whether there has been
a change in thi' social customs of the people in regard to the use c)f into.xicating be\er-
ages / — So far as my experience goes, I think in sonit> cases people drink, less, and in
other cases moT-e.
3431"). Have you noticed whether the present law, since it has come into force, has
been satisfactory or otherwise, I refer to the license system? — Tn a measure it has been
satisfactory. 1 think if it were strictly enforced, it would be satisfactory.
343|(). Have you studied the qut.ition of prohibition? — To a very minor extent.
34317. Judging from the experience yu li:'.ve had of it in the North-west Terri-
tories, do you think a g.-ueral prohibitory law for the whole of Canada could be enforced ?
— It couki not.
Haytkk Rekd.
px*r
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'U.'JIS. Takiiifj oui- country as ii whole, extending as it does from tlie Atlantic to the
Pacific, with a loiifj; coast line in the Maritime Provinces, and with Prince Edward a'shmd
completely surrounded by water, with the gulf of 8t. Lawrence ru'ning up into Quebec,
and with the long boundary line of the United States, and thou the coast line of liritish
Columbia i)n the Pacific, do.you believe it would lie possible to enforce a gtMiera' pro-
hibitory law and jirevent smuggling of liquor /—No ; 1 am certain it could not lie done,
.■U.'U'J. Have you considered the ([uestioii of granting compensation to brewers aiul
distillers in case of the enactraont of a gencal [irohibitorv law? — I have not.
'M'.V20. As a matter of ji.stice, should they receive compensation for their property
and plant in case of the euiutmcnt of such a law? 1 think so.
."it.'i^l. Do you know if there have been cases of illicit distilling in She Territories?
— There have been several cases.
JJy Rev. Dr. McLmd :
'M'.i2'2. Are the Indians under your charge particularly affected b\' drink, and have
they been particularly affected by liquor brought into the country / — Yes. We recently
have had more trouble than befori.^
34;i:i.S. You have taken extra p.'ecautions under the license system, I suppose I— -Yes.
.'i-i;5J4. Do you find that when the Indians are in the vicinity of ilrink, or when
drink is introduced into their midst, they are more affected by it than are whites ? —
They have a stronger desire for licpior. They are jiai'ticularly weak undei- such a tempta-
tion. Y'ou may temj)t an Indiiin in any other way and he may resist, but if you oti'er
iiim liquor he gives way immediately.
.■U."!l!o. So you are obliged to keej) liquor away from tlu? Fiidians? — Yes.
."U.'iL'O. 1 ju'lge you found it more difficult under the permit system than under che
present license law? — Scarcely so, because there was not as nuich li(|Uor in the count rv,
and the working classes did not get as nmch li(|Uur as the • do now. The )»eople who
come more in contact with tlit; Indians did ajt get as luuch liquor as they do now.
.■U;527. Did you tinil that prohiliition was fairly enforced under the old system? — [t
was in the first years, but not in the later years at all.
.'U.'L'.S. What was tiie reason "f the laxity? — It rested with tlie people in the main ;
it was because the people, Ijjw abiding in eveiy other particulai', \\()uld not see that the
law was enforced.
."U.'i'JU. Are we to untlerstand that the people who came iii earlier years were
anxious to see the bvw enforceci, but that those who came in later years were indifferent
in legard to it, an<l indeed were opposed to it? — Both. The people who were anxious to
see the law enforced in early years, v.-ould not hesitate in latei- years to take wiiiskN-,
esen if they knew it had been snuiggled.
.'U.'i30. Speaking of the change from prohibition to license : ilo you understand that
the people's representatives had, by tlie mandate of the people, been instructed to pass
license law ? Was that their instruction .' - In
some cases 1 believe it was, but I do not
] thiidi not ; of course I did not
■)
iliink tiiat that was the general platform.
■'ib'i.'il. ^\'as that the chief issue at the elections
take an active part in the elections.
•■<4.'}.'i2. I think you said that you thouj^ht the license law would do very well, if it
was enforced. Have you reason to believe that it is not strictly enforced '. — I think that
tile law has been evaded.
•'U.'i.S;}. it was evaded as the prohibitory law was evaded more or less, 1 suppo.se? —
Yes.
.'il.'ilU. (^f course only two months have elapsed since the law caine into operation,
iUKJ 1 suppose you have not had an opportunity to very fully or carefully observe its
eHects yet '. -I felt in regard to the license law if it were strictly enfoice<l and if it were
a stri't law, it would meet with the synqiathy of the peojile at large.
31.'!,'5."). ])o \(iu understand that the license law is a, strict one ? - 1 believe itshould
Ue so.
.■i4.'i3(). Why is there non-enforcement : who is responsibU', and what is responsiKlo
for the non-enforcement of the law ? — That is more than I can say. 1 should not like
to throw l)lame on any one for the law not being carried out in its entirety.
223
:|5'
Hii
li
11':
If
111
Ii'
' ■ f i i?
■|'i
1
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
34337. Do 3011 tliiuk there is any probability tiiat it will be carried out as ytsar.s
go on ? — T fancy so.
343:i8. What would lead you to that inipi'eission : it' there is noii-enforcenientnow,
how do you reach the conclusion thatthere willbe betterent'orccnient as time }i;oeson? —
Because the public seem to be advancinj; towards that now ; if you read the newspapers
you will find that out. Attention is being ilirected to the fact that the law is not being
enforced as it should be.
343:?!). Are the ci iiiplaints now made similar to those made in regard to
the prohibitory law ? — No. The feeling appears to be that a number of changes are
neces.sary in the law. *
34340. Were no changes re<iuired before ; were tliey not refpiired because of 'the
non-enforcciuent of the jjrohibitory law, or of l)reaches of the enforcement of it? Did
the peoi)le want to change the prohibitory law l)ecau.se it was so rigidly enforced, oi-
' because^ under the permit system it was not enforced at all 1 -No, it was because the
people felt that it was not workable under present circumstances, and that the circum-
stances had changed so that it was not workable. That was the feeling so far as I could
make out.
34341. For what reason or on what principle were permits granted under the old
law 1 — The original intention, as I understood it, was that they should be granted for
medical purpases and for domestic })U','poses.
3434:2. If it was the intention of the law that permits were to be
granted for tin; introduction of licpior tor medical and domestic use, whydid the number
of permits inciease from 6,73(1 in 1883 to 153, 070 in 1889 I — Tt woukl he very liard to
explain, becau.se the power was in the hands of one or two men to authorize liquor being
brought in.
.34343. You will observe that this is a far greater increase as regards the number
of permits than the increase in population 1 — Most decidedly.
34343«. The ([uantity in 1883 is multii>lied by 2.") in 1890 and the population
inci'eased two and a half times '?- -Yes.
34344. The Commissioners are desii'ous of ascertaining the rea.son why, if per-
mits were originally granted for medical and domestic purposes, such a mai'ked increase
occurred in the (juantity of li(iuors permitted to be brought into the country? — I suppose
it was owing to the fact that the Governor, who had power to issue the [)erinits, thought it
better to issue jiermits leather than see so much suuiggling ; I suppose he was actuated
by that motive.
34345-4(5. You think snniggling increased as permits were limited ? — I think so ; I
know it decreased as 'permits were increased.
;}4347. Is that accord' ng to otHcial figures?- -I do not mean ti) say in the same
ratio.
34348. Are ilicre otlicial figures to show that smuggling decreased as permits were
increa.sed ; or is that a fact we have to assume ? — 1 do not know that there are figures
to show it.
34349. Do you know whether those permits were for personal use or for .sale ?—
They were su|)pos('i'. ti . V . simply foi- domestic use, not for sale ; I now refer to li(juors
beyond the four jjcr cfeiit beer. /
.34.350. That arrangement came into force, 1 believe, in 1889? — Yes, about
then.
34351. Then the permits were for ([uantities that might be sold? — -Yes.
34.35"2. Do you ivgard tliat as carrying out the law in its entirety and accoi'ding to
its sjiirit, or was that a very loose interpretation of the law and lax administration of it ?
—I fear that I cannot answer that (piestion, because 1 favour the provisions of tlie law
in that regaril.
34353. As Indian Commissioner, however, you are clear that you liave had Ut take
extra precautions to prevent the Indians getting liquor, on account of the fact that there
is now licensed sale throughout the Territories? — Yes, simply on account of the greater
quantity of li(|uor coming into the country, and thereby it gets into the hands of the
Indians.
Hayteu Rekd.
224
S<1
Its were
figures
Isale ?—
linaors
about
Uing to
|u of i1 '■
llie law
Ito take
It tlu'i-e
Igrcatt'i'
lot" the
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
By Judge McDonald :
'MMi)i. Have you any reason to lielieve tliat tlie person who issued the permits wiis
governed by the wislies of tiie people /--He lui^ht have be»!n, and he must iuive been, or
he would not have issued them.
34355. When legislative government became possil)le it carried out the wishes of
the people by enacting a license law? — I think so.
Jiy Rer. Dr. AIcLeod:
34."i5G. How would the issuer of permits know the wishes of the people, — simply by
applications being made to him for permits >. That would be the only means of judging.
By Jad(f<' McD< "< 'd :
.'{4357. Was it noticeable undei' the old system that persons would get permits,
and would obtaiti large (piantities »f litjuor, the litpior being consumed within a very
short space of time by the people ? — Yes.
.■{4:{58. Would there ho bouts of di'inking at the time in different sections of the
country ? — Yes. sometimes.
/ly liev. Dr. Mr hod:
.'(4359. Have you obsi-rved whether there has been less drinking since the inaugura-
tion of the present license law than there was previously, or more? — 1 think that certain
classe." of the people who were unable to get liipior under permit .are able to get it freely
now, T do not think tiiey vdrink as nmch now as fonnerly : but t^o.se who were denied
the privilege of getting it readily before, drink more now.
.'U.SfiO. Ho taking the wiiole consumption, thei-e is no less drinking than before,
taking the several classes together ? -I do not know.
.'{4301. Sjieaking about the inci'eased issue of peiniits, are you aware whether there
were any public n\eetings held througimut the Territories demanding larger liberty? —
hi what directiim ?
;>4.'Ui2. In regard to tin? introduction of and the consumption of li(|uor ; in regard
to a more lil)eral interpretation of the iirohibitory law ? No, 1 cannot recall to miiul
any such meeting.
34363. Meetings protesting against the laxity in the administration of the permit
system ? No ; except that tlu^ people wei'e demanding through the press a more rigid
I'ufoi'cement of the prohibitory law. I heard a desire foi' a more reliable law.
.'(4.304. Do you know vhether the people asked to have a plebiscite on this
cccasion, a yea or nay vote as between pi-ohibition and license? — I have heard it spoken
of. but I do not think any formal request was nuide in any way.
343()5. And the charge made that the law was not fairly cari'ie<! out f No : it was
spoken of fre(|uently.
DANIEL MOWAT, .M.L.A., of Uegina, M.Mvhant, on being duly sworn, deposed
us follows : —
Hy Jndtji' MrDmuxld :
•'54300. Do you hold any jiubiic position? -1 represiMit this consiitueiu-y in the
ijocal Legislatui'e.
34307. What is the name of the constituency? South Jtegina.
34308. How long have you resided in tht^ North-west Territories ? About I 2 years.
3430'.l. Kave you resided in llegina all that time ?^ — I liave been about 10
M'Mis here.
34370. Where did you live befoi'e that? -In Manitoba.
34371. How long have you been a Meml}Ci f the Legislature: have you btjen a
iiii'inber since the first ?- -Al)out a year now.
225
21- 15**
•■:■
■ )
''l:
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
;J4372. From what part of the country did you come originally ? — From the city of
Ottawa.
:54.'i73. Have you had any experience in any country excepting the North-west
Territories 1 — No.
.■i4H74. How did you find prohibition work in the Territories ; did it work success-
fully ? — It worked fairly well up to the time of the beer permits.
'MMi'y. You now refer to the four per cent beer permits, I suppose ? -Yes.
.'U.'iTfi. Do you know whether liquor was obtainable in the country without those
permits before that time : was it brought in in any shape ? — Yes, it was smuggled in.
;{4.'577. Do you know anything of the quality of the liquor brouglit in ? — No. I
think the quality was fairl}' goini, so far as I was a judge.
.■}4.'i78. Were you a Membei- of the Legislature when it passed che license
law ? — Yes.
34379. That is the law at present in force ?^ — Yes; it came into force on 1st
May.
,34380. How has it worked since it came into force] — [ think it has worked fairly
well, so far as I Cc'in judge, up to the present time.
34381. In case of the passage of a prohibitory law, a law prohibiting the manufac-
ture, imj)ortation and sale of li(|uor for beverage purposes, do you deem it would be
right that brewei's and distillers should receive remuneration for theii- j)lant and pi'o-
pertv which would be rendered useless ? — Yes ; I think they should receive compensa-
tion tt) .some e.vtent, but I do not say to the whole value.
34.382. Have you found a change from the titue you first came to the Territories
until the time when the permits were granted and increased, as regards the i[uantity of
li(luor consumed in the conununity] — The only increase was in accordance with tlu^
population that came in.
343S3. It has been stated t'lat the increase in liquor was much larger than the
increa.se in population?-- Yes.
34384. It lias been suggested that such being the case, at the same time there was
a decrease in the quantity brought into the country, snmggled in fact, and that was the
reason permits were increased. Have you any infoi'mation ttii that suljject? I am not
prepared to give an answer.
34385. You have no knowledge of its operation? — No knowledge whatever.
Jiy Riii\ Dr. McLeod :
34.386. Did you observe whether there was any great increase in the quantity of
liquoi' consumed after the four per cent permit was introduced? d think tliere was a
greater increase! in snmggling whisky after the four per cent beei' was .allowed.
34387. That was in the snuiggling of whisky? — Yes; I think more whisky was
smuggled in.
.■{4.388. Was there any increase in drinking after tlie four [)er cent beer j)lan w.as
adop'ed? I think there was.
3438i). You have already sta.^d that there was an inci'case in the smuggling of
whisky. Would that seem to indicate that the permission to inci'ease the ([uantity of
beer ijid not diminish the (piantity of whisky consumed?--! think not.
3431t0. Have you noticed under license whether tliere is an increase or (leci'case in
the consunqition of li<(Uor? ■! think there is more li(|Uor drunk than there wis before.
.34,3!) 1. You are a Member of the Legislature, and you weie so when the lv'enst> law
was passed. Did you understand at the last election, when you were elected, that
throughout the jirovince the issue was between license and prohibition : was that the
chief issue.' No, I do not think it was.
34.3'.>i!. Do you know wliedier there was any urgent attenqtt made ;ind any formal
request made to have a plebiscite on that t)ccasion I -No : I do not think that there was
any formal re(jU(^st made. There was some talk of it; oik; or two of tin! candidates
said they were bound in favour of a plebiscite.
.31.3il.'!. T mean previous to that. I have before me a repcu't of the North west
Territory .Mliance meeting held in Novend)er, 1888. I notice that ii memorial was
Daniicl Mowat.
8S0
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
tky ^yas
lliUl ■•*'!l!^
Ijiliu^ of
Litity ot"
[iH'iisi' in
hct'nri'.
led, thiit
that tlu'
f».)nnal
ipcp was
jididati's
Ifthwost
riiil was
drafted, which I preaurae was presentetl to the Executive Committee or to the Dominion
Government by the Executive of the Alliance ; and one of the sections says : —
"Therefore, we, yovu' ineiiiorialistM, would em nest ly pray tlmt Your Excellency in Cmmcil iniiy
see fit to direct that on the same <liiy on which tiie elections .shall he held for the North-west ("ouiieil,
a plehiscite may l>e taken as hetweeii license for the sale of intoxicating li(|Uors and the prohibition
of the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicants, except for nieilicinal, scientitii^ and sacra-
mental ijurposes ; and wu most strongly protest against the result of any other than a direct vote
upon tliis suhjeut being taken as linal and decisive. '
.■54;{94. Do you consider that that represents the feeling of the people throuji;hout
the whole Pi-ovince? — 1 do not. 1 think it just came from Kegina.
.■?4li9u. I notice in an extract from a newsj)apt!r of November IG, 1SS8, that at a
public meotinj;; held in Kejjina, at the Court house, the North-west Lejjislature was
asked to submit the mattei' of prohibition ver-i' license to the people at the earliest
possible date, and the Dominion (jovernment wa. t commended to jn'ovide .such le;,dslation
by the succeedinji; session as would carr\ into ett'ect the wishes of the people as expressed
by such vote. Was that a public meeting of the citizens of Regina? — I liave no recol-
lection of that meeting being held, nor was T present.
.■54.'J!)6. Then I see a memorial was presented to Governor Royal along the same
line, and this memorial starts out with ; —
" We your memorialists would hereby most respectfully pray that permits to sell be discontinued
until the action be definitely settled by the voice of the people, and your petitioners will, as in duty
bound, for ever pray."
— I have no recollection of those meetings.
34.'?97. I would not expect that you would be at a public meeting of this kind,
fuithering prohibition 'I — Quite so.
By Jndye, McDonald :
.■}4."J98. You did not know of any such meeting as that being held? The announce-
ment reads to this effect : " A meeting of those interested in fui'thering the cause of
prohibition will be held on Tuesday, at 10 o'clock." Was that the best hour to obtain
a large atttindance of citizens 1 Is it not a fact that large gatherings are generally held
in the evening ? — Yes.
£1/ Ktw. Dr. McLeinl :
.'U.'599. Was there any feeling among the people, whether few or many, much or
little, or in any way, in favour of having a plebiscite? I do not ask if four-fifths,
or nine-tenths, or one-ninth, or one-tenth of the people felt ,so ; but as a whole were they
in favour of a plebiscite, and did they not memorialize the (Jovernor and the Dominion
Government to provide for taking a pl(d)iscite hi're ? Do you know whether there was
any popular feeling in favour of a plebiscite? — I have an indistinct recollection of sign-
ing some ])etition, but whether it w;is for a plebiscite or on other lines of t(>nipei'anct> I
cannot say ; 1 forget now.
■14400. There was a petition circulated which obtained •_', I4.'i signi'.tuics of electors
in a very short time ? — Yes.
•■54401. I understood you to say that you are interested as an actiNc ]),irticipant in
llii" last camjiaign, and that, taking the North west Territoi'ies throughout, the chief
(juestioii before tiie elect(]rs was not one , as bet ween license and prohibition '. I think not.
:i nO'2. That is to say, that the nienibers were not sent to the Legislature to do so
:»ii(l so i — No.
.'MIO.S. I tliiidi you said also that some membei's had got souk- instructions during
the campaign in regard to that subject ? Some did.
")II04. Were you, as an el(>ctor, favoural)le to a plebiseite ?— I was, and I \()ted
t'ui' it.
.illO-"). Do you think tbe experienc-e, although only for a short time at Hegiiia, of
hiaing the Territories generally under license, has demonstrated that license is i)etterl'or
the Territories than the old |>rohibition ? I am not prepared to say ; but ))ei-sonally I
t'a\uu[' the old system, and 1 would rather ha\e pi'ohibition than license any day.
227
lil — lD.l**
w
1;
1
■'
' ' Liquor Traffic — North-west . Territories.
Ill/ Jitih/e McDimald :
;i440l.i. 80 you are t'iiv(>ural)lo to [ir<iliil)iti(jii ?— Ni)t 011 a small scalo ; 1 should pre-
fer it to he a Dominion matter.
•'$1:407. You tiiink it coukl !«• nini-e easily enforced tliroufiliout the Dominion? — I
think so.
;{440S. Vou ai'e not afraid of suoli a law faiiinjf, tlii'ouji;li illicit .sales ? — Not in these
Territories.
.■{440'.). ThrouL;hout the |)ominion as a whole ? — Shut up the distilleries and close
the Custom-houses, so far as the imjiortation of li(iuors is concei'ned, and li(iuor could
be easily kept out.
;544lU. You think that that coidd he done, in sj>ite of oui' long sea-coast and vast
boundary btstween the l^iited States and Canada ? — I thiid< so.
;i441 1. Do you think this could be done with the force of otticers at present in con-
nection with the IJevenue and Cust(jms sei'vice .'1 think fewer olticers would be re(piired.
-■{441 '2. I ohsel■^(^ from the paper from which the Rev. Dr. McLeod read, that this
Coinention, of which you say you have no recollection, was held undei' the auspices of
tlie North-west Prohibitoiy Alliance, and delegates were present from other places, and
the committee i-eported that they had waitefl r.jion Lieuteiiant-tjovernor Royal, and the
(Jovernor dcu-lared that his action wijuld he chietly grtverned hy th(^ action of the Legis-
lature. How did that acti(»n show itself when the Legislature met'! — Legislation was
passed in fa\our of a lice nse law.
•■S44l;'i. The Legislatur,^ is made ii[(, T suiiposc. of men from all sections of the Ter-
ritories ? —Yes.
A'// Ri'r. Dr. Mr[,e<i<l :
.■(4414. The Legislature, I suppose, I'efused a plebiscite?- -Yes.
;{44ir). Was it because the Legislature was opposed to that, or because at the time
there was something like ,\ deadlock between the Governoi- and the L^gislatui'e ? — -I
think it was because the Legislature was oppose<l to the action. The deadlock had
nothin'' to do with that action.
I /J>
ROBERT H. GORDON, of Regina, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly and Sec-
retary to His Honour the Lieutenant-(»overnor, on being duly swoi'ii, dej)osed as
follows :
I'tjj Jiiihjf MrDiiiKilil :
.")44l(). i>o you hold any other olticial position than that of Clerk of the Legislative
Asseml)ly and .Secretary ..o His Honoui' the Lieutenant-(!overnor ? - 1 am also Queen's
Priutei'.
.'54417. Are you Clerk of the House, also '. - Yes.
.'i441S. Is there any other clerk? No other; the hills are framed by members
mostly.
;i441i). How long have you resided in the North-west Territories? — Since the fall
of ISS.").
.'i44l20. Ha\e you n'sided all that time in Regina ? Y'es.
;I442I. Did you originally come from one of the other pi'iAinces, or from England l
- — I came from England.
.'H422. Have you had any experience of prohibition in any other country than the
North-west Territoi'ies ? — No.
•'U42.'5. -Judging from your experience here, have you found the law well enforced?
— r did not lind the pe^'uiit .system well enforced ; I found it impossible to enforce it, in
my experience.
Damei- iMoW.VT.
m
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
3442 t. Yini mean that any system of grantinj; jieiiiiits luiild imt be carried out ? —
There was dirticulty in f^rantiiig permits jiuUciously.
.■U4l'o. What wi^re the partieular dilliculties in the way ? It was impossihle t'orany
person, including the Lieutenant-Go\ernor, whoiiad the wlioh!j)ower of giant ing them, to
distinguish as between the different appheants througliout tlie country, those who sliould
receive permits, and others who should not.
.'5442(1. Did ajiplicat ions come by mail? Nearly always. The (ioxeinor tried to
get the applicants reconnnen<led as best he could.
•{4427. Did tlie (liHiculty increase as the population inci-eased f Yes, and as new
jieople come into the coiuitry.
.'$4428. In regard to the number of permits issued and the t|uantity of li(juor coming
into <^lie country, did the increase or decrease of pei'mits affect the (|uantity of liquor
smuggled in ? The increase in the number of })erniits issued was made with a view to
decreasing the (juantity of licpior smuggled in, and 1 sup})0.'<e it had that effect. Of
course, 1 do not know it personally.
.■54429. What was the quality of the liquor smuggled into the 'i'enitories .' I have
always understood that it was of the very woi'st kind.
.344.'50. Was it found under the limited permit system that when people gut permits
and brought in liciuor, there was drinking to excess, lai-ge quantities of liipior being
drank witiiin a very slutrt time? — I have understood so.
•■544."51. We have been informed that when lic|Uor came in unilcr permit, the man
holding the permit would call his friends together, and they would drink the li(|uor until
it was all consumed? That was very much the case.
344.T2. Judging from the expei'ience you have had in this country, do you
beli(!ve that it would be practicable to enforce a general prohibitory law? 1 do not
think so.
.'544."5."5, Taking Canada as a whole, taking its geogiaphical jiosition and the
difference of races here, do you think it would be practicable t<> enforc(> jii'ohiliition in
Canada as a whole? -I do not think so, but my experience does not extend tieyond the
North-west Territories,
.■544.T4. But you have had changes of conilition in the Territories? — Yes.
344.'}.'), Then the Legi.slative Assembly at its first meeting after it was newly con-
stituted, legislated on this (piestion ?- -The first Assembly was in 1S8S: this was the
second one,
;5443G. The second one passed the present license' law ? Yes.
.'544.'i7. Have you as a citi/en observed the working of that \n\\ '. ^'cs, us a citi/en
of Hegina.
.'544:58. How has it worked? — It has woi'ked well ; but 1 might say that its work-
ing has not come officially before me.
.'i44.'W. Taking your experience of the working of prohibition and license, which is
]ireferable ? — As a citizen, T think the licen.se law.
.'54440. Do you think it is more practicable to enforce a license law ? I think so.
;54441. In case of the passage of a prohibitory law for Canada, a law jiroliibiting
the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating li(|i!ors for bexcragc purposes, would
you deem it right that the brewers and distillers should receive conqii-n.salion for plant
and property which would be rendei'ed useless? 1 have not considered that part of the
•luestion. but it seems rciisonable that they should be remunerated to some extent at all
events,
■')4442, What in your \iew is the (^tl'ect on a comnuuiity of maintaining a law on the
statute-book that is llagrantly and persistently violateil ; is the eil'ect t'nr good or evil
"u the public conscience? 1 think the effect is evil. Any law that is persi.stently
\iiil.ited iinist have that tendency.
.'i444.'5. Have you noticed whether there has been any change in the social customs
lit' the jieople in regaril to the tse of intoxicating liipiors as be\-erages, since you came
into the country ; or do you think the social customs continue as they were ? I mean,
do people use less liquor at the table in a social way? — ^I have not noticed such change.
I think since the license law has come into force, li(|Uor is used more fit ely.
!i
■!!■
.
i
:|'^
^ Liquor Traffic — North-west Territoi-iea
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
34444. Can you tell the Coimnissioiiers on wlmt conditions tlie permits were granted ;
what was the standiiiji condition on which a permit would lie issued ? — Tt was a matter
lying entirely within the discretion of the Lieutenant-Governor. He issued permits to
any rcspcctahle parties for medical or domestic use,
.■{444."). Was he supposed to htave knowledge of the persons who nuide applicatifms
and to whom he granted permits, and had he to determine fnjm that knowledge whether
he should grant the application or not? — If His Honour had no personal knowledge of
the Jiai'ty, he obtained a recommendation.
.'54440. Was a recomtnendation always necessary to accompany jiennits? — I think
so, unless the individual happened to Im; known jiersonally to the Governor.
.'54447. Did you find that the applications for pei'inits were steadily increasing? —
Yes, steadily.
.'U44S. Were you the otHcer who issued them by direction of His Honour? — The
Governor signed them, and 1 countersigned them.
.'54449. Then you issued them under his direction ? — Yes.
;}44:")0. How long was a jiermit supposed to last, simply until it was filled ? — Do
you mean how long a person might have liquor in his possession? — The time was unlimited.
:544.')1. What was the ([uantity for which permits were granted /- -Two gallons was
the usual tjuantity, and then to resjK'ctable parties who were known to the Governor
the (|uantity inci'eased up to five gallons, and I have known His Honour give even
large quantities.
344.")2. Then the quantity was at the (Jovei'iiors discretion ? — Yes.
.■544r)."{. Was thei'c no limit by law? — None whatever.
34454. Suppose a man had a permit foi' five gallon.s, and six months after oi' twelve
months after it was found that he had in his possession four gallons, would it be assumed
that that was part of the original permit, or could he get othei' five gallons under the
same old permit? — He could not get a second quantity on the same pernut, because the
permit would be cancelled by the police.
344-')."). Did the permit always accompany the liquor? — Yes ; the Express Companies
wtiuld not bring in li(|Uor t'xccpt under jiermit.
WW-hui. Was not licjuoi- brought in under disguise ? — I think it was smuggled in.
344o(). The permit being obtained, the liquoi' was purchased under it, say in
Winnipeg, and it was packt^l in candle or soap boxes and the pernut was inclosed. So
if the li(pior was discovered, the permit would jirotect it, and if not, the permit would be
preserved, and the person could get another lot under the same permit. Was that not
the case ? — T have heard of it.
34457. Did such cases ever come under your obsei'vation to any extent? — I have
heard of such casesof goods being opened by the police and the peimits being found there.
344r)8. They would cover the liquors, [ suppose? — Yes ; but it was manifest what
was the intention of having the permits there.
344.^)9. T think the Commissioners have heard, either at Winnipeg or Brandon, this,
that a man was charged with selling liciuoi', that when an examination of his premises
was made, the li(pior found thei'e was covered by a peiunit that was nailed against the
wall 1 — No man had a permit to sell li(|uor except four per cent beer.
34460. Do you know, as a fact, that there was sale of li([Uor? — Yes.
344()l. Sal(!s of liquoi' brought in by permit ? — Yes, I believe so.
.■544Gl'. Did th<ise permits continue to be issu' d to persons after it was known that
they sold liquor? — No, never.
344G3, Did you ever know of a ciise like this : that a hotel man, who had no right
to sell, w<iuld get a permit from the Governor for five or ten gallons ; then his wife
would get a permit later on ; then his clerk would get a permit, and so on until the
"boots" at last would get a permit? — No, T have never known of a case of the kind.
34464. You have never known of a man, his wife, the clerk and the " boots" in a
hotel all getting permits? The issue of whisky permits or spirits to hotel-keepers was
very i-are indeed.
Daniel Mowat.
280
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'U40"). Did you notice wlii'tiier aftt'i- the iiitrtKluctioii of foui' per cent beer, there
were many ii])i)lioiiti()i)s nuule for permits to sell f -Yes ; tliere were nmny iipiiliciitions
for pt>rmits to sell.
•'544C(). Do you know whetlier tlierc^ was an increase or decrease in the (juantitv of
wliisky and sj)irits consumed under the four per cent beer jilan '! — It (h-creased at first,
and it was witli a view to decreasing tiie use of spirits that four pei' cent l)eer was
was introduced by tlie Governor.
.'5iK)7. I recollect it was put forth at the time as a reason why the intrcMJuction of
beer should be more general, that it would reduce the consumption of spirits 'I That was
His Honour's I'cason.
.'U-itiH. Did it have that effect ? — At first, it did, but afterwards the quantity of
s])iiits came uj) to nearly what it had been before.
;U4f)!). T notice in the return to which I have referred, that the sales in \f<X\), the
tii'st year of the four })er cent beei', were l.")l,li.'?!) gallons [lennitted, and in that year
II, MiO gallons of spirits were included in the jiermits. So tliere were nearlv twice as
many gallons of spirits included in the permits during the four per cent beer year, as
were intrcMluced in the shape of liquors of all kinds during the year ISH.T? — I tiiink 1
may say with respect to that matter that smuggling had gone on to such an extent and
had increased so considerably, it was fletermined to make an ell'ort to sto|) it, and
His Honoui' thought it would be better to have the use of beer made legal rathei' than
otherwise.
•'H470. Since the people would violate the law, it was thought better to adopt the
law to the people? — That was His Honour's idea, T think — that it was better to have it
■■«■'
legal.
.'H+Tl. I think you said that permits were issued to only two classes : those whom
the (lovernor knew, and those of whom the Governor knew nothing, and whose ai)j)lica-
tions were endorsed by some one he did know or some person of repute >. — ^Yes, some one
he knew or knew of.
."54472. The inci'ea.se of li(|Uor permits .seems to have been very rapid, .so nnich .so
that in 1890, \i}'),{uO gallons came in ; but prior to the four per cent there wei'c in 1SS(>,
•J0,000 gallons : ]S87, 21,000 ; ISSS, 56,000. How do you account for the jump from
■J1,000 gallons in 18S7, to .IG.OOO in ISHHT -Did not the population increase very nuich 1
.■U47-i. Not at that rate. — What did you say the (juantitv was in 1888 1
••54474. In 1887 it was 21.000 and in '1888, .')(),000 gallons ? T took particular
notice that very much more licpior did not come in, because in IS87, there was a very
large (piantity smuggled in, and perhaps in 1888, some came in illegally oi- (>lse was
smuggled.
.■5447-). Have you reason to believe that there was smuggling, or is that a supjjosi-
tion ? — I have no accurate knowledge in regarrl to it.
.■{447(). While there were 56,000 gallons in 1888, the ipiantity nuide a leap to
I ."11,000 in 1S81). Then, of course, the four per cent was added, making an increase of
only 2,000 gallons between that and the next year, which is possibly explained by the
fact that the supply had reached its niaxinmm, and perhaps caught up with the con-
sumption of the peojile ? — -Indeed.
•")4477. Have you observed with great care the working of the license law ? - 1 have
not.
.'54478. Do you know whether its pro\isions are enforced ?- 1 have not been able
to form an opinion.
.'54479. I thought pei'haps you had done so, as you thought the law worked fairly
well in llegina? — That is so far as ray observation goes in regai'd to the town.
■'54480. Do you consider that the licensees do not sell after prohibited hours and on
Sundays 1-4 have no pers(»nal knowledge.
■'54481. You are not able to .say? — No.
:54482. You have .said that the old .system was not very practicable. Have you
t'oiined an opinion as to whether the fault was in the prohibition itself or in thciadminis-
1 rat ion of the permit system? — I think the trouble was in trying to effect limited
IMidiibition.
281
r
■* Liquor Trattic — North-west 1'erritoiies.
.'M48it. You tliiiik it is iin[M).ssilil(> to eiifnrcc liiiiilcil prnliihition? I tliiiik il is iiii
iiii|Missil)ility ; it is a most iuvidioiiK ]>ositiiiii in wliic-h to pliir*' any one.
.■MIM4. Wliy do you think t lie ciit'oicciiit'iit of prohibition not juiKtiiahic : pleaMc
Htatf briefly your reasons I From uiy expfricncc of tlic working' of tiic jwrniit system,
and the sniu<^glin<; tliat has taken j)la«'e in the western part of the country fr<ini Mani
toba to Mritish (.\)lunibia.
■"Hlf"). We liavo had it in evidence, e\ en this morning, tliat in tiie eai'ly years, u)>
to*188(!and 18f<7, proliibition was very well enforced and with very good effects. What
arose after that time to make ]irohil>ition less possible of enforcement ? Tim towns
incieased in si/e, aM<l sale of liipioi' began in them, and the smuggling of liijuor
commenced.
344Wfi. ()r wan it rather this, that the permits began to increase in numlier? The
permits began to increase in conse(|uence of the extra demand, and the fact that li(|Uor
was being opeidy sold.
;?4487. |)id you keep a record of the permits issued .' .Vlways.
H44iS«'^. Would it be too much trouble to give the Commi.ssion a recorded list of the
permits issued for the last 10 year.s ? -They appear otlicially in the |{eportof the l)<>j)art-
nicnt of the Interior from yefir to year.
.'M489. Ha\e you a coj)y of the report ? Yes. The (Jovernor is liound to make a
report every year of th(^ permits issued, and this return has been matle ever since the
system has been established. I file statement, ( .\ppen<lix (1); also copy of permit
(Appendix 7).
.'H490. Would tiiose statements in the report be etpially official with your record '.
— They are in the Lieutenant-! io\ernor's report from year to year, and cover the num-
lier of permits granted and the {piantities applied for.
;U4!)1. What was doiu^ with the permits when they were cancelled by the police?
— They were sent to the Governor's office and kept on file and stored away.
.■544!)"2. Are there any suggestions you could make to the Counnissiori in legard to
the liijuor traffic ? — I do not know of any.
JAMES C. POPK, of liegina. Chief Licen.se Tnspectttr and Assistant Accountant
of the North-west Territories, on lieing duly sworn, deposed as follows:
Jii/ .Jiuhji' McDonald :
iU493. How long have you resided in Kegina % — Ten years last September.
34494. Have you resided anywhere else in the North-west Territories? -No.
."5449"). Did you come here from one of the other provinces ?- I came here from
Prince Kdward Island.
3449(>. Have you held an official position ever since you came to Kegina?-— Yes.
34497. What was the first position you held? Assistant Postmaster at Kegina.
34498. What other official position have you held ? -That is all. Then I took
charge of the permit system.
34499. Y^ou became Inspector of Licenses when the law was changed .^- — Yes.
34500. In the discharge of your duties in connection with the permit system, did
you travel about the Territories ? — No, I just kept to the railway.
34501. Do you not travel about as Inspector? -When there is any occasion to do
so, or if there is any difficulty, I take a trip.
34502. Judging from your experience of the working of the permit system and
what you have seen as a resident of the North-west Territories, do you believe a pro-
hibitory law, a law prohibiting the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating
liquors for beverage purposes, could be practically enforced? — No, I think it could not.
34503. In what dii'ection did you find evasions of the law when the permit system
was in force ; was there any smuggling ? — There was plenty of it.
Robert H. Gohdox.
282
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
III.
.14504. l)<» you not know in \\ Imt fonnf— In iill slui|ics and wnys.
.■il.")0"). We lia\(' lu'jii'd that lii|U<ir wiis Nlii|i|it'(l in chm's ut' otlicr vuiids ; w.is tliiit
oust' I — Yes.
■■{|.')0(). In luincls uf suy;ar, tor cxiiniple .' — Yes.
."U.'iOT. We liiivc iilso iiciird tliiit liiiuor uiis ludu^ilii into tlic (duntiy from tlu'
I'nitcd StiitcH ? — Yes, it was Mnujjiilt'd omt tin- iHiundiiry.
:M.")().S. What was tlic i|iialit\ ot' flu- li ,uoi' tliat was snni;;';,'lfd in ? ()( muvsv I
iiin only ;;i\(' yoii hearsay tcHtiini- y on tiuit imint, lint I l)('lie\«' it was very l)aii.
.■{4.")U!t. Wliat kind of li(|Uor was it : spirits of all- .' Spirits <,'fni'ially.
.'U.")10. Tlif bulk Ix'iiiy small, it i-ouUI 1)0 easily handled I suppose?— Yes; some-
times even cav lots would he smu<^j.(led.
•"ij.'tll. Was the li(|Uor scattered all over the 'J'ti'ritories ,' -Proltably in tin I'ort
.Macleod and C'al;{aiy disti-icts and in that s'-eiion more than here.
What are \dur duties under thi- license law
.•u.-)t
carried out.
:U.")l:5.
licensed
;i4.Jl4.
?- Yes.
:ur)ir).
MC
law
Does that include seeinj,' that no sales take
; in other words, that there is no illicit sale .'
To see that the licensees conform to the
To see (hat the la« is siiictiy
place e.vcejit 1>V pi rsons who
Yes.
re(piirements of the license
I'ritories .' Yes. ( »f course 1
■Vre your iluties ^'eiieral tht'ou<{hout the Tc
lia\e deputies.
.'{4.")lf). l)o you have deputies at dillerent points? Yes, all over.
.■?4.")17. Do they receixe instructions to see that the law is enforced? Certainly.
• i4")18. Do you make that your own Imsiness ! Yes, to the best of niy ability.
Tlicy are appt>inted Coiinuissioners ; but still they are su]iposed to see that the law is
carried out.
.'U.'jlO. Are they under your direction? They are ; still the Commissioners are
supposed to see that the law is carried out.
:!l-")20. So far as your experience y-oes, do you think the license law i> \vcll
observed? It is fairly well observed. On one occasion, however, at Prince Albert the
iiiilf-breeds got liipior and gave it to the Indians. As that matter came under the
Mounted Police, we did not tjike hold until lately ; but .seeing the policM- were not
intending to (leal with it, we issued instructions to investigate the mattt-r at once and
take excry j)ossible step to suppress the e\ il.
•'U-*>2I. AVho are the deputy inspectors .' Jos. C. Wigmore and Chester Thoini)son.
The Connnissioners have been instructed to carrv out the law in regard to the Indians.
That is the only comi>lfiint wehavehafl through the newspapers in regard to Prince .\lbert,
•'t4.")L*2. In the event of th" passage of a prohibitory law, a law prohibiting the
uiaiiufactiH'e, importation aiui sale of intoxicating li<|Uors for beverage ])urposes, should
the brewers and distillers receive remuneration for their plan aiifl machinery which
uiMild be rendered useless ! — I think that would be reasonable.
Art
U-jS."}. I understand that you come from Prince Edw.ard Island ? Yi
Til
e Scott
Jld
not be tmtorec
d tl
lei'e, or, at anv
•at.
it was verv littl(> enforced.
ithc
i4.")'-'4. Did you come from Charlottetown ? Yes.
ib"):i;"). You kn.»w that the Scott Act was re[iealed, and that the j)resent system
pr
jhibiti
or license I- Th.'v could not carry out the Scott Act; li(|
uor was
It.
g.i roiinii t.j
-•iiuigiiled in, and if the people could not get it in any .)ther way they would
tilt' l)ack-doors of hotels. I have not been there, however, for thirteen years.
• il."i:.'(i. Take the Island with its coast line and the indentations, would you hop.' to
111- alile t.) enforce a prohibitory law in that province, a law to jirevent the impoi-tation
anil sale ? I do not think so.
■ )4o27. You think that under the Scott Act people could get all they wished, .-md
tliat it was im])ossible to prevent the use of liquor'?— Yes.
'>4.')28. I suppose the jjeople got liquor from St. John. Halifax and .Montreal, and
of riiurse they could keep it in their cellars and use it themselves and give it away to
tliiir friends, but they must not sell or keep it for sale. In case of the enactment of a
!iiw that would prevent every man obtaining liquor, would you hope t.i b»' able to
cntnice such a law in Prince Edward Island
233
I think it would be impossibU
I I i
I lit'iud tlxit all the young
llllt lllHltT tilt' Scutt Act
ill C'liai'liittiMow I
Not at
No.
Li([U(ir T.ianic — Noifli-wost Tenir<u-ies.
.'U'>L".I. Wniilil there lie .>iiuiggliiig along tin- loaKt ami luioss tlu' strait^' -tf
Nnitlninilict'land .' \vh.
/i;/ Rrr. I),: Mrh'«,l: '
;il">.'t(l. How long is it since voii left I'rinco Ivlwanl Island.' AImhiI T' veais.
•■ll').'tl. l)o you know wlicllier there has iiceri an increase in the tein|ierance ur
]iiohiliitioii sentiment during the last do/en years or not .'
men on the Island weic taking to drink.
.■U">."Il'. Do you (ittribute that to I lie Scott Act! No
they could get what tliey wanted.
.'ij.'i.'l.'l. l»o VKU know whether the Scutt .\ct is in t'orce
the present lime. I know it was a failure.
.'U");it. l>o you know whether the present system is a success oi a t'ailuri
.HI5;{r). Xiit having liociii tliero for twelve yeiii's, have you made any personal
oliscrvations of the working of the Scott Act .' No.
.■i|.").Ui. Then what yon are stating is simply hearsay ,' Yes.
;M").i7. You would not care to give it in evidence .' If is I carsay.
.".4-");iH. I)iil you say that the license law in the North-west Territories is well
observiid ? [ did not say that. I say that so far a.s I know from my personal exper-
ience, it is wi'll ohserved, with llu^ e.\ce])tion of one or two places, where it is reported
that certain wholesale people arc lireaking the law. Whene\er I hear anything of the
kind, I take immediatv steps to stop it.
.'Mo.'i'.t. Have there heeii any lii'ensees Inought to Imok for violations of the license
law .' Not one.
.'Ur)JU. You have taken steps in some cases, I sup|>ose .' No. It was rumoured al
one time that a certain hotel and a wholesale dealer were seilinir after hours. We in-
structetl the Inspector to warn each that if that occurred, they uuuid certainly he fined
and their licenses would l)e cancelled. Since then. I have not heard any complaints.
."U")!!. |)idtlu' Deputy Commissioners intimate that there are any violations of
law, except the Prince Albert case to which you have referred.' — Ye.s, in one or two
places I have had notice of violations of the law, and T have instructed them to take
steps at once.
.■MiJlL'. Have you heard nothing since, and is the case at I'rince Albert the only
one? — Nothing.
;<b")4."i. Then so far as your experience goes, yuu believe that the prohibit(jry pro-
visions of the license law are carefully observed? -Yes, so far as T know.
.■Vl")14. I )o you know of any sale of liquor after hours at Hegina ? — T do not remem-
ber any. 1 heard of une case, and instructed the Ins]iector .-iccordingly : but since a
letter wiws written olKcially to the parties, I think the law has been weli observed.
.'?4r)4">. Jlave you heard of violations on the Sabbath? — I have not heard of
Sabbath v iolations.
.■?4.>4(i. How many licenses are issued in Hegina .' I think thei'c are six, four hotel
and tv*-o whole-ale.
.■U-')47. No restaurant licenses ? — There are no such licenses granted except in a
town with a population of .'$,000 people.
.■)4")48. What are the hours of closing at hotels?- -From 11 o'clock at night till 7
oVlock in the morning, and on Monday the bar is not allowed to be opened until (J o'clock.
.■U")4!l. 1 suppose a wholesale dealer is not permitted to retail at all? -It is what
you call a shop license. With a shop license a party can sell one bottle or two reputed
pints. e(pial t() one ijuart.
'.\\')')Q. Has tliure been any memorial or comjilaint made to yourself or tt)any otticial
connected with the license law. That matter comes under the direction or control of
the Assembly : but you have taken steps, T believe, to prevent any trouble? — We have
taken steps.
•■^4r).jl. And you have heard nothing since? -No.
'.\\Tm2. I think you said that you did not believe in the practicability of prohibition.
Do you believe in the principle of prohibition ? T do in a certain way. Tf liquor would
.r.\.Mi:s C. Pope.
234
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ihjur<- a youn^ iiiiin in iiiiy way, it init;lit li<- iMttt'r that lii> should iutt liavc it : liiii I ilo
not iH'lit'M' ill ilii'tdtiiij,' to a man wliat hf shall t-at i>v drink.
•11 to undt'i'lakc iiy law lu |iiii|iiliit llii'drink
;M.").");i. Th
•li
I i>
M'M you ii*>ii*'\c M wiinjti III' wiMi <u uniit'i'iaKc iiy law lu |iiiiiiiiin iiii'iiniih
liai>it inrludin^ th<< nianufactuir, iiii|>iii'tali<>n and Hale '. ^'*'s, it' it cuuld lie wnikcd nut
iniirtically.
Ml"!.")!. 'Phi'ii yiiu iK'lii'Vt' in thi- princiiilc, thou^fli yuii lhiid< it ciiulil iml In- praiMi-
('ally i>nt'<ii'('i-d .'- I <|ii not think it could In- racrii'd out.
;U.""iri. ( »ii wiiat is your opinion hascd .' I think tlir majority ot' tin- | pic arc
MHainsi it.
;U-")r»t). The people of Manitolia recently voted hy a majority of IJ.IIUI) in fa\ourof
pi'ohiliition. Would that show that the sc'ilimcnt of tiio jk'o|)Ic was in its faxour .' I do
nut think the |ieopli' of .Manitolia are in fa\'our of it.
.'! I'l.")". If a vole were taken in the Northwest '{"erritorics, and it were yivcn ii\
til \ our of pi'ohiliition, do you not helic^ve that it would express the sentiment of the
pulilic f -J think if a stfai;;ht vote wci-e taken for pi'ohiliition oi' lic(>nse, it would lie
i,'iv('i» in favour of licen.se.
.'{(•"•."iS. It did not iro in favour of license in Manitolia.' I do n<ii think the \ otP
was taken that way.
.'5 lo'i'.i. The way it was taken was; yes or no on pi'ohiliition? I was not of that
r
wav.
ion. I do not think that is the sentiment of the pulilic.
•'U')((0. Notwithstanding they voted that way? Notwitiistandinj,' they \ cited that
."Vtodl. Supjiose the plebiscite had shown a majority in fa\oui' of license, woukl
that. Vote have expressed the sentiment of the peojile ? [ think it would, liecause tlie
people are in favour of license.
.'UritVJ. If a vote showini; a majority in favour of lict^nso is rej;arded as expressive
"f the will of the peopl(>, how is it (hat a vote showini,' a majority in favour of pmhilii-
iion
is not expressive of the will of the people? {''roin my experience, I think the p:
pie ill the Territories are in favour of license,
:U'iti.">. M'ould you he willing; that a plehiscite should lie taken in these Territories
Ml this (luestion
? Y.
tic 111, WCIU
lie
• iiritil. And if that jileliiscite resulted in the majority xcitinj,' in favour cif prohihi-
Id you think that verdict meant that the people wanted pi'ohiliition f - I (h
it think it would he in favour of prohibit
ion.
Kov. HrCJH St. QUENTIN CAYI.KY, M. L. A., of Calvary, on lieiiif; cUily
^wiiMi, cleposecl as follows : — -
Jiy Jiiflgi' Mi'Dotmhl :
•UufiS. I understand you are Premier of the North-west Territories?^! am a
Mciiilier of the Assembly here. We have no title of Premier ; I am Clciiiinan of the
l'",X('cutive Committee here.
•Uri(i(). AN'liat is your profession?—! am a lawyer.
■ U'lfiT. How long liave you resided in the North-west Territories?- -Since 1S,H4.
•U'ltiH. Have you always resided at Calgary? — Virtually all the time at Calgary.
■ iiritij). Did you come liere from one of tlie otlier provinces? — T came here from
Tciiciiito.
34ri70. Have vouseen tlie workiii" of a imihibitorx- law anvwhere else than in the
>iii'th-west Territories ? — Yes.
•5 1.")?!. From what you have seen since you came here of the working of the system
as it was enforced liere before the license law came into operation, do you think it could
he effectually enforced? — Not the law they had.
•U572. You mean the permit system ? Not the permit .system.
235
•ittl
it)
.i'l
m
^■w
m
i\
Liquor Traffic — North-Avest Territories,
;{t.")78. Wlial was tlie ditticulty about the workiii;!; of it ? - 1 do not think tli(! sy.s-
tfiii of proliihitioii, seein-f it as I saw it, can Iw enfoirod witlioiit tin- oxtra powers tliat
were ,^iven to the iiolico when I tiist came here.
.■Hr)74. What were those jiow(!rs ? The powef of seiifch, peisonal and doiuieiHai'v .
I do not think sucli a hiw ean he enfoi-ced without these powei.;.
.■Ui")7"i. Takinji; tiie |)oniinion of Canada as a wiiole, do you think it would he pos-
silile to enforee such a hiw witli a hody of men searcliing the I'esidences and persons of
Her Majesty's suhjects .' We would not stand it in tlie Nortli-west, and I do not s(>e
why you should stand it in the East. That is the great ol)jectioi>. It was not the prin-
ciple we oh.jccted to in the North-west Territories when T came here first, it was not the
principle nl' prohihition we ohjected to. not in the .slightest, l)ut we did object to the
jiowers gi\eii to those men who w(-ic unyielding in Jie exercise of them.
.'M")7t). Aie you a memlier of the Legislative Assembly ?- -I was a niembei' of the
old North-west Couiv.il in I SSti, I thii'k, I came up here in 1"^84. I think I was elected
in iSf^t), and I have been a member of tlie Assembly ever since.
.■i4r)77. Th(> ])resent Assembly has passed a Fvicense Law v.f r.nderstand ? 1 t'N,
that was in obedience to the vote.
;Hr)7S. T'hat measure was carried by the representa.tives of the petiple, wc Ix'lievc '.
-Yes, the law was enacted by the '■epresentatives of the people in the Legislature, it
was their vote.
;{4r)7!). You rt'fer to the law now in force? — Y'es.
.S4r)80. So far as y<iu have seen its operation, since it has come in force, do you
think it is prefei'able to the old system I -Y'"es, certaiidv.
;Mr)f!l. Was it your experi'.nce that under the old system the people obtained I'lpior
for beverage purposes ? - Y'es, they did ; there is no doubt about that.
34r)8"J. \\'e ha\'e been informed that under the old permit system tiie ])eople got in
t|uantities of li(|Uor, and thev would get together and constnne the liipio;- in a. \crysh(>rt
time and drink to excess. Was that the state of things in '.he section where you
lived? -- Ti ISSJ, which was the time I came up here, if a man got a permit tilled (you
understanu the permit gave tlie right to import a certain quantity of liquor), it .seemed
to be known from the telegraj)h otlice to all his friends, and the con.sequence was a
<lebauch.
.'i4"i'-i.<. Was there nuich smuggling along the souiiicn frontier? Yes. I hear<l a
great many men afterwards bnasting about what they !tad done in that line.
.■^4584. It has been stated that the liquor smuggled from the Ignited States was of a
very inferior character, e\en of ;i foul kind. l)o you know anything m regard to that '
We can only .suppose, on general princijiles, that sucli was the case. < )f coarse, there
was :i great deal manufactuied in the country.
.■Ur)8."). I )o you mean by illicit stills' -Certaiidv.
.■54r)8(i. Was there a complaint that there was bad licpior bi-caight in and used?
1 cannot say that, because ! know nothing about it, except that those who did drink
it say the li(|Uoi- is bettei- sini'e the new system camti into force.
.■$4.")87. It li.is been s'^atcd that other compounds than liquoi' were resorted to '
— Yes. Wleii 1 tirst came i.> the Territories a gentleman would ask you up to hi>
"o(>?n ti) meet a few friends. He would make decoctions which, in nine cases out of ten.
were composed of pi'jipermint or son.:' .such material mixtnl with .s(>>;."tl<in<; else, and he
would make intoxicating be\('rages out of those compouiuls. auil they would keoi> drink-
ing those compounds ni'arly half the nitiht.
.■i4r)88. Fie l)ought ^ubstanic- vith which to maki those decoctions ?^ Y'es. I'ei-
haps if I could give you a short history of the Prohibitory Law it might be better than
these answers, which are simply opinions. Hut my evidence is pei.sonal. 1 I'ame up
here in 1884. I came from Toronto, where a different system was in vogue. I went to
Calga'y, and there 1 found the idea prevailing that when I obtained a drink a
personal favour was conferred on me bv some person or other. 1 took it as a persona!
favour, and of course tho.st' per.sonal favours were conferi'ed upon a great m.any people,
and the con.sequence was tnat most of those people who hail i)ersonal favours coh
ferred upon them abused those favours. At the same time. T found the Mounted Polii'i
IfoN, )!l(;il Sr. (j>lKNriN C-AVI.KV.
J3ti
t'l-s that
luciliiirv.
1 1)0 pos-
ersons of
not SCO
till' priii-
is not tin-
et t(i the
fV <>i the
IS ck'Ctcil
r
1 es.
.' Ix'lit've ?
<'.!itun', it
I'c, do you
nt'cl iMjuor
:ijile i^ot in
very shi "."t
rtliere you
tilled (you
it set'n\ed
nee wa- a
1 hfiuil ii
>s was ot' a
M to that '
iir-i'. there
luui used I
did drinl<
[■sorted to '
up to hi-
lout of ten.
and lie
leiMi drink
es. I'er
letter than
|l ean>e Up
I went to
ii drink a
la personal
Iny people.
uins eoii
Ited Toliii
57 Victoria.
trying; to carry o^t the lav
Session*'! Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Tl
itiiei"
th
ould h
lev re(pui'e(
d to I
lave exti'aordinary |iowei-s j^iven
toth
)een no use trvmj' to entoi'eo
the l.-i
and, as vou cannot
have tiie l)est of men in the Mounted Polii'e, you have to excuse an occasional feelin<; of
anger against them. Very well then. When I came up in 18H4, I heard many stories,
as fo)' instanc" that nieiid)ers of the Mounted Police in plain clothes, visited a man's
Kiuse duruij; Ins alisence and seai(
•hed
his wife's hed. In 1SS4, the Mounted Police
e:e looked n]ion as the t
ei'ior o
f the countiv, oeeausi
til
i\v I'
<1 t
lose extraid'din-
y p,
')t lustiee.
of search, which tliev exercised not according to the k
That '
iw ot n;;!!!
tlie
law
re
laxed, as vou kn
the case in 1S84. Then the law as regards ])en;iits became
]ieri)iits were much more freely given in the country to
people to procure sui'ii li(|Uor as tlie\ wished. I'lUt the powers of the Police were not i
la
d. Th
d
le eoiise(|uence vras that wliene\era man
•I
was on
d
|iri\at(^ \engeance against aiiv
the force, he exercised it. < If
I d
kee]) licjuor out of the country, unless you give thf).se powers to a hody of '
o not considi r it possible to
hut
when
vou do, you must he sure to ohtain the best men in the country. Whenw ■ were talking
diout a license law, I was asked to draft one, and I drafte<l tin^ jiresent law.
law that, is
I'spect. He
loSit, What d(
111 think
IS the I
iVect
on a conimuiutv o
]ieisistently and tlagrantly violated !— I agre," with l^dward Blak
f h.
<e in that
id: You cannot enforce a law un'ess vou na\(
th
sentimeiil ot the people m ta\iuir
ot It.
/!,/ h'rr. Dr. Mr/.rod:
• U-")!)!.). I think I understood vmiu to .ay that the permit sy.-,tem was lelaxed after a
certain time, and continued to he so. Do you think that was a g<Kid thing .' I cainot
tell you whether it v as or not. It was the peojile's wish.
.'U-')!!!. You think the desire of the people expressed itself in fa\oui' of the permit
-vstem being relaxed? — Yes.
.'i b")".)!'. Were there no ])arlies against a relaxation of the administration of ihe l,iw,
and asking a more rigid administration of the permit system .' Yes : imt so far as I re-
niember, they were pai'ties altogether out of the Territories.
.'UoOS. Was there a movement in the Territories towirds the more liyid enforce-
iient of ]iroliibitio
There were alwavs a bodv of mi t\ who thought a ri'dd enfon
iiieiit would be best.
.'U")94. Ihd they express that di>sire in a formal way.' I think so. 'tln-y hail
ii in thei'" power to express that opinion.
■■!4-")!*r). On the other hand, were there parties .u'aiast tlie rigid eiifoiccmeiit of the
law, and did those people express themselves i;i a loi . lal way '. No, 1 think not.
•i4.'")lt<> I >o you think the permit .system was veil administered ?- -No, I do not,
•i4")!l7. l>oyou ',now whether the Lie iteiiant-t JoM-rnor made it a condition that he
-hould have personal knowledge of the appiii-ants before he wouUl gi\e them iiermits !
I think he generally asked, if he had noper.sonal knowledge of the applicant, the opinion
it the Mounted Police, or pcrliajis the opinion of tlu' .Member for that district.
.''4."')!IS. Still you think the permit system was not well administered.' .No. When
til i,ieutenant-( !o\ crnor had no personal knowledge, he would not grant the permit :
l>ui I do not think there was any special class fasdured with regaril to the gr.-uiting of
permits, r think in (iovernor Dewchiey's time and (iovernor Itoy.ds time, men who were
i:ii(id citizens and good (.'onserv;iti\ es wcri' granted ]>ermits ; I th'nk they were personal
fii villi IS.
• ib'iil'J. You do not think they were administered on any special plan but wi-ie
|iiisouai fasoiirs. l)o you mean that permits were granted to all persons who wanteii
lii|ii(ir for consum]>tion ( — No.
•llfiOO. Not to all persons who might a|iply f No. I liavc had a great deal of 'xpe-
lieiu'c ill that direction. I have been a McMiibei of the Legislature for six or seven
viiiis, durinn pait of (}o\ernor l)ewiinevs term and altogether during ( !o\ernor Hoyid's
'I'liii. Many whom ! reeoimiiended were refu.sed, and I ceitainly did not recommend
.my men of ill repute or !iny men who made a business of selling.
• itdOl, Did you recommend any who were in the habit f drinking to excess ? —
^ ' ■■. 1 did. I did freiiuently recommend men who .abu.st'd their privileges.
237
'1
! «
) 'I
'"*■■)
Liquor Tratfic — North-west Territoiies.
.'UdO'i. Did you uiiderstand that applications .I'ere made by a larj^o nunilicr who
.simply desired liijuor to drink, who wiieii they ippl! jd, and were known to the Lieutenant-
(xovernoi or to some tViend of his, their reiiuest i were acceded to? — No ; 1 tiiink as a
rule if the Lit utenant tJovcruo.' knew they were people who were very fond of liijuor,
he refused to j^raiit them permits.
;54(JO;J. In 1^87, theie were permitted 21,000 gallons and in 1888, otJ.OOO gallons.
How do you account for that jump? — Is there no classification in that record^is it
whisky, brandy or beei'?
;UGOI. It is a mixture of all kinds? — Can I have the figures?
;54()Or). I ihink there were 21.000 gall;)ns of beer and spirits in 1887, and ofJ.OOO
gallons of heel- and spirits in 1888?-— You mean that was the four \)ev cent j)eri((d.
."UtlOG. That came in in 1889, and those figures ai'e for two years before that? —
Governor Dewdney was here in 1884, and (Jovernor Royal came in 1888.
34(107. When was rhe increase? — It must have been between 1887 and 1888. The
last year undei' Uovei'uor Dewdney the (piantity was 21,000 gallons, and during the first
year of (Governor Royal, which was really only half a year, it was r)('),UOO.
.■54(508. I was not spe;i!:;ng of individuals, but I was sj>eaking i.f vears ? (iovei'nor
Dewdney came in 1884. The tirst year of his administration the quantity was !t,000
gallons, the last year 21,000 gallons, which was in 1887. The first year of (Jovernor
Royal, in 1888, the ([uantity was ofi, 000 gallons. There was an increase! under (!o\ernor
Royal.
.'54GO'.). Can you account for the leap from 21,000 to oGjOOO gallons ? -I think the
permits were issued more freely, and more jx'ople were coming into the Territories.
34<)10. Then you think the relaxed permit system was not good : do you say that !
to exist in any country, it nuist be absolute. If the people
-If
irolnlntion is "onur
have to die for want of liciuur they have to die. That is my opinio
.'54(11 1. Do you think they die for want of it? — 1 think they die for want of it. If
a man has the moral courag*; to refuse licjuor, then that is a man to be admired.
34(112. Do you think the drink habit is increasing in the Territories ?-— It is very
hard to say. It is a matter of opinion. I would rather say that I do not ti.ink it i;
ci'easni
M
ore IU|Uoi
is consun>e(l, but 1 do not seem to have noticed '.I
s in-
le excessive
drinking we had formerly.
34(51. "5. Would it be well if there were obstacles, say the licensing of the (juantity
coiisume(
W— Y<
34(514. Are you yourself an abstainer? — No; I hope not to have my personal
raatlers investigated.
34(11 •"). We ask doctors, lawyers and ministers, that ([uestion? — If it were not pub-
lished, I would tell you exactly what I am.
.14(51(5. Will you answer this (piestion : what do you think is the t^fiect of violating
law
o'. till! viol
ator?- How can it be otherwise than demoralizii
34(117. Do you think that because there aiv men who desire lo \ iolale the law, it
wiiuhl be well to reixNil the law? There yt)U enter on high gmuiul. You might as
wt'll ask the man who committed a theft, whether it would not be well that the law
against theft should be removed. I do not agree with you there.
34(518. Was the license law the chief issue at t!ie last election in the Territories?
I think not. I think it might ha\e been so in two or thi'ee districts. Tiu' prohibition
senriiiieiil is xerystrong, howe\-er, in this country, and if t he women were allowed to vote,
the probability is that if there was an election, i)n)hibition would be c;irrieci. This is
a very strong statement from a man who believes that a license law is the best to such,
but 1 believe that the sentiment is that way in the western part of the Territories.
Itilll. So it was not the issue at the last elect ii
I think not. 1 kiK
)W 111 al
ca.ses where the candidates were opi>osed to prohibition their votes must be takt
yrano nn/in.
boN. Huiiii Sr. (.^UKNTiN Caylkv.
238
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.) -
A. 1894
JAMES H. J}KN8(>X. (if Re>>;iim, Sheriff' of tlic Judkial District of Western
Assiniboia, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
By .Judge McDiiiiidd :
.■U620. Please describe i)rietly the boundary of your distri-rt ? It luns from
lvan<,'es 10 and 11 up to Maple Creek, south to the international bounilary, and nortii
to the border of Saskatchewan.
.'}4()21. How lon<5 have you lived in the Noitli-west Territories r -I have lived in
the North-west and Rej;ina (0 years in l)eceniber in'xt.
.'i4t)L'"J. How much ct' that time have you lived in lie^ina?— All that time.
;U()2.'}. How lon<i ha> (' you been Sheriff'/ -Since 1^*87.
;>4()i.'4. Did you come here from oiu.' of theother provinces'? — From ( )ntario.
iilfi^"). From what pa>t? — From the County of Huron.
."■fd'JC). Wiiat law was in force v,hen you left there .'--The license law.
'■\UV1~ . Have you knowii any otlicr <'ouiitry tliau the Xorth-west Territoi'ies under
a prohil)itory law .' None whate\er.
;') KIl'S. What has been }our experience in the Territories : iiavt; you fouiul the law
to be eff'ectually enforced? — At Hrst the jmrmit system was eff'ectually enforced for
some time.
.■Ml')'-"'.). Do you tliink tlie condition I'hanj^ed I--I noticed a perceptil)l(' change.
.'i Kl^iO. Do you travel round the country '. Yes, in my district.
.lUi-'Sl. In the i<ii.r;i' of your travels ha\e you found tiiat li(iuor was obtainable? —
It was obtainable si tinges, l)ut I have heard complaints that it was not obtainable.
:M().i2. Have you lieard comiilaints as to the (piality of th(> liquor in the country ? -
Under the permit system, I always understood, and it was so in my cxpei-ience, tiiat the
lii|Uor brought in was very good ; but the four per cent beer v.hich came in was, I
o'jusider, villainous stuff".
iU03.'?. Was any liquor of an inferior character smuggled in during tiie |iermit
sv;lcm period ? — I do not think so.
.'Uti.'U. We have iieard that there was impm'c litpior brought in from the United
States '. I <lo 11 )t think that that applied here. Any liquor smuggled here was smuggled
in from Manitolii.
.'MO."!-"). Did illicit sale prevail to any great extent ? — I Iieard if two or three cases,
li.it it was not general.
:ilt).'it). Then there came a change in the jiermit system, by which tliei|uantity tiiat
was brought in w.is increased I ^'es.
.'iKi.'l?. By which increased (piaiitities of spirits were brought in .'is well as fourjier
cent beer ?— There may liave been an inciiase of Imtli. Li(|Uoi' was more easily obtained
in later years.
.'tllKiS, .Judging tVom what you saw or !lie proliiliitoiy hiw ihiiing its existeiu'e,
"niiid you consider that it would be practicable to enforce a pinliiiiitoiy law fortiie
wlmle of (.'anada '. .Judging from wh;it I saw, I say certainly not.
•ittl.'iU. If such a law were passed by Parliament, a law prohibiting the maiui-
t'iiciiiic, importation and sale of intoxicating !i(|Uors for beverage purjioses, would you
ileeiii it ligiit that lirewers and distillers should reeeivecompensation for their i)laiit and
iiiaijiinery thai would be rendered useless? That is a (|uestii)n I lia\e ne\ er consiilered,
aiiil it is one on which I could scarcely \enture to give an opinion. .M \- idea has al\\a\s
Ivcn ilial tliev should ret'cive compensation.
■ llt)40. What do you consider is tlu' ellect mi a community of a law remaining on
'l.e >latute-book, such us a prohiliitory law, tiiat is iiersistent ly and liagrantly violated ?
- I >iiuiild sav tiiat it is very demoralizing.
•Util'J. liave yiai, as a citi/eii, seen soinelhing of the opeiatioii of liie license law
."<iine it came into force ? <)nly from oliservation.
^Mlil.'l. Does it appear to work fairly well ! I consider it does ; 1 lijive iieard \ery
l<'\\ ruinplaints.
23!)
ii
'
!ii
■i--''
m
mssa
Sit
Liquor TraHic — North-wcist Territories.
Jii/ llfiv. Dr. MrLmd :
34644. I think you said tiiat in the early years proiiibition worlcecl fairly well .' — It
was enforced.
.■U(54r). And later, what was the result? — There were more sources from which
li(luor was brought into the Territories.
3464(5. Later, there was a change. To what do you attribute it ?-• Very often I
attribute it to the excessive work placed on tiie police, and to the fact that public
sentiment was against the law. In this way tliey wei'e not so rigid in their enforcement
of t!ie law as they would have been, if they had found that the public were with them.
34647. Do you attrilnite the change in any way to the large luunber of pei-mits
granted? - Xo, I think not. My experience has been along the line of the railway, and
the force was called back to maky seizures.
.34648. Would the work of the police lie more flithcult if mure permits were
scattered ovei- the country ? — It would naturally make their work more diHicult if at all
l)oints where li(iuoi- wa.> nnported the importations were covered by permits.
34l)4i). AVouUl tlrinking increase in proportion as permits wen; increased ? — I shuuld
naturally imagine it M'ould.
.346r)0. Would th(! [>eople be liable to obtain the impression that because there was
increased drinking. ])rohibition was a failui'e, as it hail not prohibited that ilrinking '.- I
do not <|uite understand your question.
346;") 1. For instance: as the number of fierniits increased rapidly, must there
necessai'ily have been an increase in drinking? Where more or less drinking is going
on, I suppose there are more or less effects to be seen ? Would those titt'ects of drinking
be more conspicuously noticeable : would it seem that prohibition wfis a failure because
there was so nuich drinking going on and such effects of drinking observable? — •
Naturally.
.■)46")2. Was that the fault of the prohibition in the law ni the permission in the
law ? — r could not undertake to answer that question.
346")3. You have spoken of the j>olice not having the sympathy of the pei'ole in
later years. Did they have the sympathy of the people in early yeai's ? — I thinK so.
There were fewer people in the country then, and 1 admit that the people were more in
favour of the permit system than they were afterwards ; the people were against it
afterwanis.
34654. Speaking about the four per cent beer ti at was introiluced, did you notice
wiiether there was an increase of drinking after that change of system?— -Do you I'efer
to the drinking of spirits?
34().")."). I refer to drinking of spirits of all kinds? — I do not think so.
.34()56. Did tin; people instead of drinking spii-its all the time, take something else a
good deal of the time ? — It would take a wise man to unilertake to say what lif|uor the
peo])le took ; it was very foul stuft. 1 noticed iis effects on people who were not drunkards
and on men who were in the habit of drinking ; its effects were very perceptible, and it
caused them to be stupefied. >So a man would stop ilrinking it.
346.")7. So the four per cent beer introduced did not iiiqimve the condition of things '
— I think not It rather increased the consumption i>f spirits, because if you c<juld get
spirit, you would certainly drink it in preference to the beer.
346.")8. Speaking about the violations of the law, I ask you as an executive
ofhcei', which is bettei', to enforce a violated law, or to repeal the law because it i^
violated? For instance, a law is xiolated in this country : which would you rather do.
endeavoui' to enforce it, or repeal it because it is \ iolated ,' -That would dejiend very
nmch on the circumstances. I would, of course, endeavour to enforce a law wiien it
was violated, if it was possible to do so.
.■i46.")9. Especially as it was the law ?^^ Yes; and I wciuld endeavour to prevenr
\ iolations of it.
.34660. I)o you believe in ihe principle of prohibition?- f do not.
34661. You think it is not well under any circumstances to prohibit the li(|U"'
trade, I suppose? — I would restrict it, but ! would not prohiluf it.
.John H. Hknson.
240
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
,\W)-J.
Jl;
you uhscrvcd wlntlici' rlic lu-ciisf law dues I't^strn't tlie trai
lllI•(^ssi(lll of tlif lift'Msc liiw licrt'jis contriisttMl witli my t'xi)<'i'it'nci'ot']iiii'tiiil innliiljit
iiiii.
IS S(»
limited tlwit 1 coiiltl not viMiturc to ui\t' ;ui opinion in rt'^anl toil. W'l' liavi' luul n
c'liiincc sincci
Mfiv 1st t<
o iiropcr
Iv observe its workini;. It. lias worked s.itist'aetorilv,
tar as I eoid<l jud^tc I lia\e seen no violations, and iia\e not lie/ird ot' anv.
I i
ia\ e not lieart
iHl'i.'i. You liave not heard ot' sales at'ter hours an<l on Sunda\
)t' any. and liavo not seen a'ly.
.■>|()()l. Hut F understand that you ohjeet to the ]irinei]ile ot iiroliiliition .' Yes ; I
have iii\' own \ lews on the sulijeet.
.■itdtio. Do you ohjeet to iirohihitioii l(eeaus(> it is not jiraet ie.ilile, as is often al
or l)ecause it involves a
I think so. Those f;it't>
nithin ]iro|iei' limits.
)>' |>iini-i|iie to lie ineornorated in 1 he laws of I he eountrs'
wereui\fn to us I ihink, and we lenc a riulit (o etijov 'hem
;(•)(;. Y
•iltiOT. Bv wh
ou mean aleoholie ln|Uor was i;i\en lo u.-
-That
IS a iiuestion into whleli I need not "niei
.■{4(568. ! )o you mean that it is one of the ^oorl ereatures of (J
;^ifts of (iod, when not ahused.
IS onr of t 111
iiJtit)!). Do you think the foui jier eeiii beer was a i,'ift of <io(l .' \o ; imt I am not
ikiiiiX of that matter.
•'MtiTO. Do you think that (lod is respoiisihle for the eoiu]
lounds which are callei
'ood Ikiuoi's!
I
eannot sii\-.
("a/1 they he jirojierly railed tl
Odd creatures o
f (iod
ome miulit.
i:
3+07-. It niiuht he a leriii for all thin
iterinj; into those com|>(mnils ; hut is
( iod resiioiisihle for the conijiound or for the character of the conijioiind ? - As I lia\'e
already stated, 1 am at;ainst the; ('rinciple of prohiiiition.
.'54(i7.'{. You think the trade should he restricted .' -1 do.
.■U()74. \\'\\y should it he restrictt'd .' Jiecatise there is then less daiiL;er of viola-
MK)"-'". Why should there he lestrictions thrown aliout tlu; liipior trade that are
it thrown about otiiei- trades/ i understand one reason is, that li(|Uor is liable to be
tloiis.
aliuscd, and there are some men wl
lo lia\
e not sullicient control oxer themselves.
.')4()7li. It is admitted, then, that tli(> lii|iior trade is of a eh;',, acter diUcrent from
all other trade.s, and that it is neeessai'v to ilu'ow ivstiictions around it '. I am siieakint;-
from my standpoint and accordinu- to my observation.
:{4(
u I .
Hi
i\e vou o
bseived that not witlistandinj,' the restrictions thrown about it,
there is constant abuse of liquor and damaije done to a considerable iiuiiMicr of peojile .'
Xot to any i^ieat extent. If the use or abuse of lii|Uor in these Ter itories has been
pioduetivi' of ill-etiipets, T lia\c not observed them excejit in one or two lasi's, bu' not to
any >.'reat extent.
IM)7'^. Takin.L,' your obser\a;ion in a wider Held, have you obseiNcd thai the drink
tivid
e is iirodiicti\e of evil in any deyrce ' -In some mstam
I I
iJivc seen evils ri'su
h
tniiii it.
•"1407!). Is that the reason why the trade should be rest rictcil by limitiniith
iber of licenses and the hours of sale '. - >'es, in mv view.
•iKlSO. Hav.
you
•bsersed that under those restrictions, tlii' evils are I
essened
lliero are fewer people who drink to excess than when tin' trade was not li.nitiil or
restricted. I think so, judging from the operat ion of the permit system oriiiinally here.
■■pK')."*l. Then you think the jiermit system wtis of some briielit .' 1 do.
;i4(iSL'. Wiis prohibition in the neighbourhood of publie works, that is during the
ionstru(;tioii of the railway, a goorl thing ', The niilway eoiisti'uction had gone on liefore
came here : it vv as W(
st of here then, and mv dutii.'s did not carry me tlii
h
•'MtiS.'!. Ft has been stated that pidhiliition during the ((Piistruction of the i.iilvvav
was enforced .'ind was productive of goor
I ivsiilts I 1 h
ive so UIK
Ierst(
tin
.StliS4. \Votild pruliibition, eipially well I'fffnyijni, })■■ luoihietivi- of good results
der other conditions? -1 Imrdly tliink so.
.'UtiS.'). F)o vou believe, while of course you are opposed to the princi|>l() of prohibi-
u. that if there were a prohibitory law for the whole country, '-..'ll enforced, it would
241
■2\ -16**
:-*i
:1
■(
iijlit
1
m
v''\y-
■ !
1^
rin<mr. i )i..i xiim.mitmamam ^mKmmmimmm
\\ w
Liquor Trattic — North-west Territories.
be liciicfii'iiil '. 1 su|iji(isf XI ; y)ut it would not lif well ciit'drccd, so I rouM not iinugiiie
siicli ii ('(iiiditioii.
Ilif Jiiilif MfDdiiuhl :
.'iMi^ti. Uoyou not find lli.il this ii(|ui)r <|U('sti()n is ii (litU'rcnt (luestion t'runi all
otlici's in rcj^jii'd to tlic sentiment of tlie peojile, us a Tnattei' nt' fact, ? -Yes.
.'UtiST. Can you mention any sid)ject tliat the Lei^islature deals witli in the nature
of criniinid buv in regai'd to wliich tliere is no ditliculty in enfoiving a law ? No.
.■i4G8N. 1 suiUMJse yi»u in\ai'ial)ly find tliat tlie sentiment of the people is in favour
of enforcing the law ! -Yes.
.'i M'lS'.i. .\nd that sentiment ])re\ails aniunn a \ci'y lai'ge class and in a xcry lai'ge
piiiportion iif the connnunity i Yes.
iMiiMj. So that the authorities are enalded tu carry out the law ? - Y'es.
• IK'i'.ll. Then yoii find that this <|uestion diili"'-' from all others in that resjiect ? —
\'eiy )nateri:dly so.
.■UfU'l'. !)(.> villi iKit think that in dealing with this i|uestioM, cii-cumstances must he
taken into cunsideratinn .' I think so: 1 think it wnultl lie an element in the ease.
W
WnWVAVY I'.. COHDON recalled.
/>// .liiihjr Mcl>(,H<il<l :
'■\\WX\. l)ii you know whether any municipality
availed itself (if the local option clause in the License
hut the Inspector will l)e able to tell the Connuission.
.iKi'.M. \ii\\ ha\e no knowledge of tiie matter ' N
the Territiiries has thus far
' I am not aware of anv ;
JA.Ul-.S C. I'OPt: recalled.
A'// .1,1,1,1, M,-I),,i,.il,l :
'i4(>H."). l)o you know whether any municipality in tlie Territories has thus far
availed itself of the local option clause in tlu' License ,\ct .' -No.
Bn R,r. Dr. .U,L,.,d:
.'{4()9()-7. ^\'hat is the clause ', — It is one of the clauses in the License Ordinance.
JuurJE McDonald- The clause reads as follows ;
" \(i license sliiiU lie irriiiiteil liy the l?(iaril, fur the snle ut' liiniors uilliiii tiic limits of n liccii.si'
ilisti'ii-t. wlieii it sliiill liiivc liecii iiiaik' tii iijipciir tii the lininl in iiKuiiier liereiiiaftor |ii<ivi(leil, thiit n
liiajiirity of thice lift lis lit the ihily i|iialiti(!il eU'ctiirs Iheieiii, whii have v<itei! at a poll taken as
liereinatteis|ierilieil. iia\e ileelared theiii.selves to lie in faMiiiicif a piiihihitiowof tllu -silleof ilitoxicatillj,'
licpKir.s in their ilislriet. ami anaiiisl tlie issue e, lieensiss tiieret'ur.
" W'iieii a rei|iiisiti(in is presenltMl, aeeiiMipanieil hy tin siiiii of twn hundroil ihillais tu defray the
exiienses of the )ii)ll hereinafter s|)eeitieil, to any t'limniissioner fioni a iiiunher of the electors of any
ilistriet lestiinateil as near as may lie at least onetiflh of the total niitnlii'r of eleetors of the ilistriet.
the liasis of such estimate lieinu the nnmlier of eleetors w ho \oteil at the last eU'ction of a ineinlier of
the Legislative .\sseml)ly| reipiiiing a vote to lie taken as to whether or not sneli iieeiise shall issne or
lieuianteil therein, it shall lie the duty of siieli Commissioner, npoii the receipt of smh reipiisitinn
mill t he saiil sum of two hntiilifil ilollars to seriilinize the names of the eleetors atfiiched to sneli
rei|iiisilion. ami lieing satistieil thai the names so attaeheil are thoau of iliily i|Haii'i>.il eleetors
within the (listiiet. ami after the person or persons who have witnessed the signatures to the said
reipiisilion shall have sworn hefoie a .lustiee or a notary |>ul)lie. that he, the said witness, or thev .
the said witnesses, were present ami saw the said electors sign the said reiiiiisition : that the said
eleetors sign the said reipiisitioii v il hin thirty dajs of the date of siuli atliilavit : ami that the eleetors
constitute onetifth of the eleetor> of such district lestimated as aliove). to eoimnand the taking of
such a poll of the said eleeiors. lo ascertain whether or not smli licenses shall lie jjrai ted."
John H. iii'NSON.
242
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liil A\i: Dr. MrL"n,l :
'5 H)i)S. 1 >ocs tliis iiiefiii tliiit the pcoplt' who jn'cscut the i'('(|uisit ion must (h'|)nsit
8-00'/ -Yes. At tho last session of the f,('j;isliitive Asseiuhly there wiis nn aineiuhneiit
iiK veil to I'echiee tlie amount to .SlOU, hut it did not |)ass, owing to the Legislatui'e heini;
dissolved.
.'JKJil'.t. Tliat is to say that people who want the ^ote ti.rvcn are to make a ih-posit
of 8100, even if tlie amendment should 1h' adojjted. Will they not get it returned I \
)ia\( not lookeil into that nuitter.
;!1700. Do you know whether after the passage of the license law, there was o])por-
liuiitv olVered for the municipalities to take that course ? — Not last year.
."> HOI. That is the reason why there is nonuiniei|ialit \ under this opt ion ciau>e.' ^'es.
;'>170l'. The Act came into force on 1st May, I helieve ? It was assented to aliout
that time.
;>17')-"'. U it a fai't that the law providtxl for a \ote being taken wil liiu a certain
tiihi atier the cou'ing into force of tlie Act? — -I have not looked into the loi'al opiion
'Ir.u.se, as it is since it came into force.
.'54704 5. It is stated that the Act shall not come into force within one year? Yes.
.(riici; McDonald. — Hectlon 14iS provide: as follows: —
" Tlii< ( )r<liiiHiK-c sliiill ciiiiic into force ami take effect on, from iiiicl after the lirst day of May,
une tiioii.sanil eiiilit liuudreil and ninety two, ueverlliele.-s all |)i'oceedin;;s taki'n and tlunf,'sdone aiider
tlic |iro\ i^ions of sections (in<' to forty-e i;li( , l)oth inclusive, of this !)r<li nance sid)sei(nent to the date
■ iM uliieh the jiieutenanl-t oivernoi' assents to the same lint |)rioi- to the said lirst (hiy of .May. sliall lie
ni-d to lie valid and shall havi' fall force anil ell'eet for the |iui|i(jses for « hich they are taken and
leenn
lone
V.
.1 .V.M l']S WFLLIAMS, of Kegina, police constable, on being duly sworn, deposetl
.IS follows : —
By Jadtje McDonald :
I)t70<'). How niJiny constables have you under your cliarg(> ? (')ne.
•"il707. How long have you resided in the Xortli-west Territories? — Five years.
:)I7IIS. Mow long have you resided in ilegina ? About one year.
•')470!(. W'liei ' did you reside before that .' 1 was in the North-west Mounted
I'lilice, ami my duties woidd, of course, take nie to diiferent points along the line.
:')!7ltl. Did yon come fiom onci«f the other Provinces' T came from Halifax,
Nii\a Scotia.
•'M711. Have you lived in any other country, except t he North-west Territories,
Where prohibition was in force? No.
')17ll!. J Lave you ever lived in nny locality in Nova Scot r.i where local option wa.s
ill force ' I have seen the cfl'ects oC the Sciitt Act in the Vio\ rnce.
• WTl-i. Kr'om your' experience of (he working of prohibition in the NdiTh west Terri-
tories, do yoii think it coulil be eil'ectiially enforced! I believe it could.
• >l7lk What .system flo you thitdi it would 1)6 best to adopt for that purpo.se? —
Such ;i system as was carried out by the Mounted Police in the Territories. The system
that was itr foi'ce here previous to the license law eoidd have been enforced hen' if t h«»
aiitimril ies had not been so lax in regar'd to the issuing of permits.
•il71"). Then, in your o|iinioti, if fewer ]iermits had Ici'ir granted, tire police would
lia\e been able to enforce prohibition I Yes.
•>17l(!. What were the powers of the Police? They could a|)ply to a .Magistrate or
't .lustier^ of the Peace for a sear'ch warrant, and in the case oi commissioned olhcis of
the for'ee they did rtot I'dpiire a search war'rarrt, if thei'e was I'easonable gr'ound to su.s-
|ii''i that lii|iioi' was being sold oi' concealed in a house. Any ollicer' could search the
house.
243
•-•1- 16 .'•'=*
m
iBi&a
ij
II
Liquor Tmllic — Xoith-west Territories.
.S4717. (Joiild 111)1- tlif iitliccr send .1 iiiiiii to do it .' \'('s.
34718. Ynii tliiiik with such a .systi-in, and ni> ])i'rmits jiiantcd, a |iruhil.itoiy la\
could 1h' can-ied out .' It could.
•■M71'.l. Fi'oiii vour kiKiwhulgc of tiic city of Halifax and that part of Nii\;i Scoti
do ^■oll lliinU vou coidd canv out such a law tliei'c .' Thcic would he a little nioic d
itli-
ctdl V oil accouii
t of vessels I'oinitii' in t he hafhuuf, and liiiuor would lie eonce.ded on l)oaid.
I7l''i. I )ii Vou thiid< the nuiii
ihei' of residences and the ]ii>|i
lulat inn w ciidd iiim1<
e It
more ditlicult to \ isit hou.ses and seafch theiu and search the persons uf the jicople ' If
there were inojier ollicials to look' after inconiini; xi'ssels, I lielievc
t here u liuld he no
necessity to sear<'li the houses.
Hiiw wduld vou Mianaue with ren'.-ud to the co.ist line of Nova Scotia, \e\\
irunswiek anil I'rinct
!•:
•d isl
111.
would Vou ri'iiinre a l.aru'e force at ditieient
points? — In the event of prohiliitioii heiiij; enacted tur those pro\ince
used in the towns could he dis[)eiised with and sent to the cnast.
the
■m'22. You think they woidd form a sulHcient force for the
shoul
think s(
•in
N'oii think that the police force in the citie.-. i-oiild he dispensed witl
sent to the coast in uider to prevent liipior beiii:^' landed .' To :\ lariie extent.
M7AI. At
d iKi expei'ience there
lid wliat wcaild you pro\icle in
rei'ard to i'rince Ivlward Island
h:
:5I7J.".. 11
1)\\ \M)Ul(
1 VOU
de fur the houndarv of the I'liiled ."states in ()
uche(/
d ( )iit;
I should think the same plan umild a]ipl
.'?l7lil). Would the same plan ajiply to the North-west Territories ami Maniliplia.'
We h
.•U7-'7
heeii there
ii\e a SUlliCK
'lit l)od\' iif men in the Territories to do tli
rk.
And how would you nianai,'e in regard to iiritish C<iluiiii
ha\(' ne\er
;'I7l.'.'^. Are vou ill favour of prohiliitioii as a principle '. — I am.
3172i). Do you think itcould li(M'llectually enforced in Canada .' I lielieve it could.
.'54730. And without addiiis;' to the force, liut simply availing yourself of the
present force
I think a sultieient number could lie draftetl fn
1111 the force now in
I'xistence, ;ind intact th(> others could be dispensed with, and a j.ncat many of tl
isons closed.
.■!47;!1. J)o you think ih
could be relieved from the sei
r-iietits of jirohibitioii would be so <,'reat that iiians' iik
I th
llCV COU
34732. .\nd the ])ri.soiis clu.sed up? A
niniil)ei
Id h
of tl
lem i^ndd be.
3 17;
counties.
!)<
How
think the county jails could be dispensed with '. Yes, in
SOUIe
WIIU
Id th
I you propose to nianam! with regard to illicit sale in thecounti
le same otlicers look after them
es : they do it in ireland.
3473."). Would you favour the establishment in Canada of such a force as the Irish
Constabulary to ileal with these matters ? No ; I do not think such a force wriuld
necessary. The police in the \arious localities could deal with it.
.■il73(i. You would use the ordinary police forci- in the country to do the woil: -
T would take a few men from the force, men well adajited for the work.
34737. I{<A\ many men connected with the police force probably could be dispeii-
with here in Ke,u;ina ? There is only one man here
.'54738, Do VOU think he would not be needed if t'
lere was no licensi
li(
law h
Yery probably not.
3l7.'5i). Do you ii<it think that, if piohibiiion
police force woulil be danuerous t F believe it would 1
■e adopted, such a reduction of t!i'
34740. Do yi
)u bebe\e
that
hibitinu; the nianufacture, importation
in case of a pidhibit<ii'y law beinn' passed, a law p
de of intoxicatini; liquors for In
puriioses, the ' rewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of pi
machinery? That is a ipiestiou to which 1 lia\e luit uiven any thou<,dit. My
impression is that they should not.
\('l'a-i'
lint .-mil
ow 11
34741. Y'^ou know tliat the sentiment of llie Maritime I
suppose I
favour of prohibition, T si
ro\ inct>s is very stroi^lv
pr
James Williams.
have leathered it from the newspapers.
244
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
"iiri-. S\ii)]iiisiMi; II Miti' was tiikch nil tlii.s i|iit'slic)M tui- llic w licili' ut' ("aiiailM, and
it wiis t'litiiid lliut llii'ic s\as a laij;c iiiajnrity, |M'i-lia|)s |(t to 1 in llic Maritime I'luvini't's
in Faxour nf |iinliil)iiii>n ; i1im> a lar^^c niajuiity in (.^iiclici' was au'ainst it, tliat < )ntaiio
uas aiiiKit cM-nly lpalan<'c(l, that .Manitolia anil tiic Nortli-wcst Tcrritnr-it's were
slinnuiy in taxmn' ut' it, ami liritisji (,'ciinniliia Id to I against it : wonlil \in\ jioiic tu
ciit'iircc su'-li a law in (^ucIm'i' and iiritisii Cnluniliia with sucii a scntiniiMit against it '
All IT a litl li' tinii'. 1 hfiicM' ii wcmld lie cnt'iiicrd ; it wnnld not I nturccd tlir lirsi
\rai-.
."il7l-">. l>oy<in l)('lic\c liiat. at'icr tiiat linir, ii wnuld lie rntuii'i'd .' I Kdii'vi' sd.
/.■// /,'rr. I),: Mrl.,,.,1 :
.")17M. How Inn;,' lia\i' viin iict'n t'liict' Cnnstal)li' nf l!('t;ina .' Tlncc ninntlis.
.■lITI-'i. Sinci' tlif li<'('hs(' law lias licen in oprialiun .' -Yes.
.'U7U>. Was then' any riinstalilc iicrc lifforc that linicl Nut that I am a.u arc ot'.
."il7t7. Viiu thiidv that )ic(>hii)it iun wmild In' a nnod thinf; for tin- rcmntiy at lartrc
i\fii it' it it'(|uir('d an addition to the pri'scnt iii'licc t'ofcc .' I hclicvi-it woidd. \\ c
unuld liaM' less po\city in ihi' connlry, t'cwci' w ofk-honscs anil Irss |)ail]M'rism in the
Ivisti'in Pfov iiit'cs.
Ii
I '<
<|
iinunv niciL
A.MKDKK IC.MANl I'M- l"( »l!(i K T, of H.-ina. Assistant Indian (' i
\'j, duly sworn, dciioscd as follows:
ssioni'r. oil
11,1 .hnhir MrDoiHihl .
117 l>. How lollL' I
lavc \du rr
siili'd ill the North-west TerriiDries .' Sin.-e the fall
|s7t;
ut l.S|().
•■!I741I. Where did you reside in the Territories (hiring that time, in more than
line ]ilaee .' l''(ir one year 1 was at Vnvt I'elly, and ti\e years at liattleford, and the
lialanee of the time at I'eyina.
•")17-")IJ. Where did you reside liefore you eaiiie to the Ti'iritories / In Montreal.
•■!I7")1. Ila\e you had any e.\i)erieiiee of a iirohihilnry law anywhere else than in
ihe Territories .' Nowhere else.
•'U7")li. t"io far as you were aide to ol)s(;r\e its operation in the Territories, did y*'"
Ihul it sueeessful ill |)roliil)it iiiy the use of into.xieat im,' liiiiiors as lievcra^-es f No. It
has heeii to some e.xtent successful, l)Ut not entirely.
;)l7")-">. We ha\e had exideiu'c liefore the Commission of what is I'alled the |iermit
system, under which people were allowed liv jiermit to u;et i|Uaiitities of lii|Uor and
hiiii'.^ it into the Territories, at which time they would call their friends together and
lia\ !■ a drinkiiiii hout as loiii;' as the lii|Uor held out .' That was just as much so underanv
ulhi'i- system.
■ 'il7">l. Has your altent ion heen in any way called to the kind of liipioi- in use in
tl;e Territories.' -1 think under the jierinii system there were more of the hard
iiiiuxicatini; liipiors sold than under the license system.
• il75-"). Or what we would call distilled spirits ? ^'es, I think sn. Take my own
liise, I was livinyat Hattleford, (Ul() miles from Winnipei;:, and permits were olitainalilo
'lily oerasionally, owiiii;' to the distance and the liea\ y charue for freij^ht on hulk liipior.
rile |itMi|ile would ityt the sti'ongest liipior, and they would only need a small (piantity
iliiii hecause they diluted it with water after it was received. The distance, of course,
iiiadr it imjHissihle to seiiil for lieer or claret. 1 was in th(> haliit of driiikinj^ claret in
M'liitreal. hut I had not a n'lass of claret for ti\e years at liattleford.
•il7"i(i. From your experience, do you think it would he a j^ood thiiii; if the use of
liLilii wini's and ales was encouraged and the eonsuinption of the heavier liquors dimiii-
isliii! ' -That is my tirni helief. The encotii'a<;ement of the use of lis^dit wines wnuld do
iiiiiir than anvthinu' else to reduce the drinkiiii; of hai'd liijuors.
245
I -
^mf
Licjiior 'I'l-Jillic — Xortli-wcst Tcnitories.
$'
W
347">7. Is llifi-r milcli ljl;,'fr Ix'i-I' used licif .' I liclicNc tlici'i' is !i yiiiiil (Ifiil.
■}47")H. Hum- ynii ln'cn lU aiiy (iiiic soiitli of tlic liiif of llic ('iiiiadiuii I'acilir
Kiiihvay ill tlic (lircction of tlic lioiiiidaiy of tlic I'liitcd Sliitt-s .' Not cxfciit at Maclrod.
;t47'")ll. W'r ai'c told tlial ron.sidciahld i|iiaiititi('s of liijiior wcrt' Mnui.'iil<'d fniiii tlic
ll^nit«'(l States? ^^■^, llial was tlui case at oiw liiiic.
m7(iO. It lias Ix't'ii slalcii tliat llic Iii|ii()r was xcry liad in i|Ualily. Ila\i' you had
any i'.x|)frii'nci' iii
that
ifspcct .' I liavi' had no iicisoiial I'xiM'iiciici' of it.
3l7lil. A license law is now in force in the Teiri lories : have you us a eiti/eii oh-
servt'd whether It is wdikiii'' wt
r \u\,\i' taken vei'v sli;;lit notice of its workii
]H'rsoiialiv, liut it has not lieei
I veiv well enforced.
•il7t)l.', ll; voiif |p;irlieiilar deparlliienl as Assistant (
OlIlllllSSIO
iiei' of Tndian Altai
pai'tof your duty is, I |iresuiiie, to see that intoxieatinu lii|Uor is kepi from the linliai
H!
.■i47'>.'. I lielie\e I hat under till- permit system there wa'- not so iiiiicli chance of^'et-
t iiiu' ni|Uor as under the present system, so far as t he Indians w ere concenied '( — I'nder
the presi'iit system many people have liquor for sale, and in some cases it is hard to dis-
tinuuisli who are Iniliansanu who are not, hecause there are in some ])|aces, such as
hiiek Lake, I'riiice Alliert and Ivlmonton, people now called Indians who were formerly
■mliers of the Treat v Indiaic', or who lia\e withdrawn from the treatv to accept the
illV-r-
re IS \ erv lit t le <
scrip which was otlered 1)y the ( lo\ finment to I iaif-lireeds. The
ence lietwceii those people and the real Indians, and yet they are practicallv the same
as while citi/cns. Liipior iiiay lie sold in thost^ localities and to those jieople leually.
.■i-17'il. NN f have heeii told that in some sections where licpioi- is allowed to In; sold,
it is not allowed t
o lie soK
I ilircclU' to the Indians, hut white
men wi
II uvt it for 1 1
Indians? — It is done, lait not very frc(|uently.
•"il7<'>!'). In case of a proliiliitory law lieing j)assed, a law prohihitini,' the manufac-
ture, importation and sale of intoxicatinj; li(|Uors for hexcra!,'!' purposes, do you think
brewers and distillers sli<iuld lie reiiiiineratcd for loss ot' |ilant and maehineiy .' ^'es, I
should say so, if there was
sucli a clianije niadt
i47l)('). It is urged hy some that when chaiiifes occur in the trade policy <if the (li
I'liinient ati'ectiiie individuals they should not lie coiiipensateij .' I think compensati
should he made them in the evt^iit of such a law lieiii'4 <'iia<'ted for the dominion.
Th
//// /.'-■(■. /),: Mr Lad:
117(i7. What did you regard as the weak features of the North-west proliiliitiou ;
■ weak feature was the attempt to proliiliif the lirin^iiiL; in of licpiors, which is a
hard thiiii; to do in any place.
347()H. Ft did succeed in part, 1 lielieve ? —Yes. [ think as reifards the lower das--
of tlie peo|ile tlu' permit system was successful, but the ujiper class jieople drank inon
li(luor under ]iermit than they do now. 'I'lie poor people could not atlord it.
.■U7l)'.t. Then you think the permit system was the weak part of it? — It was
IKll
called a license system, but it really was one. Instead of allowinj.c ""f individual h>
ha\<' li([Uor in his possession for .sale, it allowed in(li\iduals at larife to have liipior in
their ]iossession for their own use.
•")t770. And also for sale if they were disposed to sell il .' ^'es, ihouicli they wei«-
not |>resuiiied to sell.
34771. Then it was license in tliisseii.se. that instead of there beiiii;' a numl
F'
I'soiis licensed to sell, the iii
to I
irin<> ill liquor
preroi;ati\e res
■alitv.
ted with the (i
or of allow il
ler ot
dividual-
•'54771.'. In rei,'ard to the permit system ; if it had 1
leeii moi
e riijidly enforced
prohibition in a larger degree have been a succes.s? — Yes, if it had
connected with that sy.stem before becoming Indian Commissioner. I was CMerk of
the Xorth-west Council and Secretary to (iovernor i)ewdney, and afterwards to dlovei-
nor Royal, and I had really the adiiiinistration of the deiiartmeiit at that time, of course,
under the direction of both of th(>ir Honours under whom T served, but some discretinii
was allowed
If the liieiitenant (
(lovernor was tree in granting permits he w;
assailed by persons inclined to be prohibitionists for being too liberal : if, on the oth
.\mi:ih':I'; Kviani-ki. Pohcict.
:4(i
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liainl, lie lii'ciiiii' .1 littlr St lid, III' wjis iissaili'il in Ictlfr.-. t'niiii nil hm-i i In' coniil i v \\ it li
disc riiiiiiiiit iiij; jiiiaiiist ci'i'liiin jhtsuiis. Sh it uus uiic nt tlic liardcst sv>lc'iiiv |iiis^ili|i'
tip iiiliiiinisti'i', and tn disciiininali' as liri ween |iaitii's. In tail, tin' i|in'slii)ii tVi'i|iirnllv
arosf as li> wlii'tlicr tlu' Liriitriiant ( iip\ niiipf hail a riylit tu disi'iiiniuMti' lntwi'm
iicrsKiis.
lITT-'i. ''"^K. I suii|i()si', villi dill nui di-iiiininatr Imt is>iici| |ii'iiiiii-~ ;,'i'iit'iallv .' -
Siiiiii'tiiiii's \vi' discriniiiiati'd with liicn'siill tlml I liavi'shuu
W
(• rslai)iis|||.i| ci'i'tain
nili's iindi'i' whii'li till' a[i|iiicat inn had tn I
His lliiiiiiiir hi't'iiif till' |i('niiit was jiraiitcd.
IP ri'i'oiiniii'iKlril hv siiiiii' iii'isuii kniivvti tn
III lii'cr t'nr --al
11771. I >i(l ynll nltsi'l'M' llnw till- illlrndlli't inn lit' till' t'niir |ii'r CI
I'd: what was its I'H'ci't .' I t hiiik it had a lii'iirticiid cIVici mi ilir wlinl.': it
laiiily dri'icasi'd tlir a|i|iliiat inns t'ur >tinn!_' drink. I
I'liant ( in\i'nini', and I nutiii'il that mvsi'lt'.
wa^- t lirii .'^riTi'lar\-
tci ihc I
lent
I iinticf this, that in 1 SSS, at tl ml nt' tlu' vi'ar the t'lair
lll'l' I Till Ih'IT
as iiil nidiict'd, M,")!!! ifal
(IniitI
lulls ui'i'c allowi'd l)\ lir|-||iit : in
ISS'.I, I I.Cf.ll i;,d|i
sjiiiits well' adniillcd hy |ifriiiit ; and in IS'.iH, Is, |17 uallniis. .Sn tlicic was ,1 steady
incirasi' in till' i|iiaiitily nt' sjiiriis used, u hilt; t lit'ii' was alsn a steady imicasi' in the
t'liiir pi'i' cent heer and all ntlier lic[Ui>is .' N'nii did imt take intn aeeiiiint the steady
increase alsn in tlie ])n|)iilal imi ; that, nt" oniiise, has tn lie kejit in iiiiinl.
.•U77f'.. T
icii, ynii think there was nn dis]ii'n]i(irtinnale iiicrea-
It Mill take the
it'|inils year after year, they will show an inerease, wliieh rannnl lie i'X|i|;iiiii'd. In I .^SS
there were .")(!,()()() <,'allnns nt'all kinds nt' liiiimr |ieriiiitlc'd : in ISS'.I, I .") I ,()()t). ne.irly three
I iiiies as niiK'h, and there was rertainly lint that increase in jin|iulatinii. In |S!M) the
c|iiantity was l.");i,()l)() yallniis. fii l.s'.ll the t'niir per cen
and was ciitniced. Then inchidin;' all kinds nt' liiiiinr'
t lieer system was iiumdiiced
very lai'''e increase w 1
II
'.\|ilaiii('(l liy the fact nf the fniir per cent system : liiii tli.ii uill exjila
|iianlity '. I dn imt think there was any dis|irn|inrt innate increase.
//// .liiili/t Mr hmiiilil :
111 ciiil\- ,1 cert.iin
.M
11777. The anuiial cnnsuiiipl inn nt tlmse lii|iinrs in the Nnrl h-w est Ten itniies and
in .Maiutnlia was as tiillnws: in IS
ItO.
|s,s;«i. -o;!!
IS'.M
'y.\\'} iralldiis, nr III
lire t h
an dniilile I he i|Uanl ity nt' lieer. w itli a very slii,'lit increa-
spirits ']- \i's.
I hi l!rr. Dr. Mrl.rn,! :
'■\\~1^. In 1 SSi) the total impnrlat inn nf lii|iinr under permit was |.M,ii(i(_) ^allniis,
and in that yeai' 1 l,tjlil' !;allniis nf it were spirit units. .Sn while there was an increase in
licer. there was also an increase in the cpiaiitity nf spirits cnnsiinied .' Which is explained
liv the increase in pii|uilat inn.
• il77'.'. The iiit riidiict inn nf I he fniir per cent lieer, 1 Ijclicse, wa^iii.ide \\ it h .1 \ ic\\
tci lessen the cnnsiitnpl inn nf spirits. \\'a> that llie case.' Yes; it was niie <A the
iiiciti\ I's.
.■il7'''>0. Ihit it would seeni hy the tiL;iires lh;it t he cnnsumpticni kepi pace wilh the
increase nf pnpiilatinii, and that while lieer increased, there was also a |)rnpnrt innate
increase in the cnnsiimiitinii nf spirits .' The pnpnlatinii ha- steadily increased cluiiiiL;
ili.it iierind, and that is why the lii,'iires would shnw a dill'erent result. I think tlnit
It the population had reniainefl stationary, there wcnilcl have 1 n a decrease m the
iiii|Mirtation of stroii!,' lii|Uors.
.')17c"^l. As Assistant (jniniiiissioner of liidi.iii AlKiiis 1 iintice that your tesiimniiy
is similar tn that nf Commissiniier KiM'd. wlm said that e.\t ra precautinns had tn he taken
iiciw under the lice'isc system in nrdcr tn protect the Indians fmni lii|Unr.' Yes.
■i 17S"-'. I)n you lind that is true '. 'N'es.
."il7S''). So tiiat, in that respect, the license .system is nnt an iniju civemeiit .' It is
lint .111 iinprnxement so far as our Indians are concerned.
•'>I7S1. Is it Jill imiiroyeiiient so far as the Teiritories are concerned .' - I cannot say
tliat it is ; I prefer a complete piohihitory system, if it could he enforced.
•U7S."). Do you think there would lie f;reat dilliciilty with r('i:ard to enfoicemeiit ?
1 dn. I helicxe it would l)c ne.xt to impossible to enforce such a system xcrv stricth'.
247
81
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WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580
(716) 872-4503
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Liquor Traffic— North-west Territories.
.■J47iSfi. At all cvfiitN, ymi think tlieii' wduUi Im^ jj[reat diHicultit'S? — Yes.
."UTH". l><i you tliink a gciiiTul pruliiliitory system roiild he wi'l) fiifi>rr«'(l in tlie
Territories and that j{(kh1 results would follow? Y'es. .usi'verywlieie else.
.'{47HH. Do yuu consider its eiit'ort'enient. if its enforcement could he secured, would
he the means of i-educinj; the <|uantity of lii]uor intriHluced in one way or anotlier? —
Yes, I think w>.
.■147H1>. Do \ou think the Ix-nefils in such a case would In
irked;. Yei
liy Jmhii- iti-lhiiittl'l :
.■fl790. In reyrard to the enactment of sut
h a I
aw
liave vou
had
my expcruMK'c as
to the practicahility of such a law, and iiave you considered what the eft'ects on the con
munity woidd Ih> of |irosecutin;; cases of \ioiation. W'e are told tiiat in some places
attempts to enforce proliihition in courts of justice ai'e attended l>y perjury. Have you
had any experience in citses of that kiiul?--! have had ex|K»rience, and theefFects an; not
iNMiellcial.
.■!17'.M. We ai'e told that ))eo|)le look on the enforcement of such a law ditl'erently
ir*tu\ the enforcement of all other laws, liaxe you noticed that? Yes, I ha\i' noticed it.
.■U7'.^l.'. What, in your opinion, is theeU'ect on a connntinity of ha\ in<; on the statute-
iNHik such a law as this, which is persistently and llaj^rantly violated .' The elfect is
\ery hail.
;n7!>-'. Has it a tendency to hrin>{ law into contempt w itii the people /Yes.
.■U7'.tl. In inci'casin^ the numl>ei' of permits wiiich were issm-d, it has Imm-u su^'-
;^ested tliat the rt-asou they were increased was the fact that a larife ijuantity of liquor
was heini.' lirou<;ht in illejjally, hoth from the I'nited States and from Manitoi)a, and it
wii.s thou<{ht that l»y issuin;; more permits less liipior woidd he smujjifled in .' Yes ;
whenever permits were granted freely there were fewei- causes of smugglin<;.
."$4 7 !•")-(■>. ]j<M>king at the lij,'ures in regard to the increase of inijiortations and liHiking
at the consumption per head, the (iovernment ligui-es show no apparent increase, hut
must it not lie take'i into account that the ligures of the 'juantity smuggled did not
appear in that report!— -Yes : it did not a])pear at all.
.■U7il7. And therefore, in spite of the smuggling, there was as nui(;h li(|Uor Ix'ing
intr<Mluced per head as under the permit >ystem f Yes. proi)al)ly moi'e, Itiit thcligures
did not appear in tlu* |iuhlic report>
•■M7'.t''^. What was the first vear \<iii came here
In IS7(;
.■t47y!i. The annual consumption per head in .Manitoba and the Noithwest Tei'ri-
tories |)er head was : of spirits, w'iti, of Iteer 1*77, of wine •205 during that year, i hiring
the next year. 1S77, the consumption dropped, the figures lieing : spirits ••_'i(4. l>eer 'L'ti.
and wine 'll.'. Next year it again increased, the i|Uiintities lieing. in li^7><, spirits •.">.'{;(,
iM'er I •4<)S, wine ■■i'.) : so that, as conipared with the previous year, sjiirit^-' alMUit <lo hied,
l)eer more than douliled, and wine (pnulrupled. Tlie ipiantities \aried from year to year
until 1NS:{. IVir that yeai' the (|uantity of s|)irits wa.s •N7">. leei' l-ti7'.t, and wine '.'M.
The foil )wing year, |f<H'.t, the (igmes were as follows : -(itlit for spirit'^, iieei- ."lOStJ, wine
•(t'J. In 1M!M», as follows: spiiits ■."di). hcei' 1 •_'"), and wine 41 : and in the followii
i-ar tl
lei-e was
an increase a-'ain, at all events a consideral^le increase
So th
ipnmtity of litpior has JM-cn fluctuating from year to year, it heing sometimes more and
sometimes le-s. Yes.
.■14>0t). I uiiderst(Mi<l you to siy that the increase in population was
causes of the changes /-Yes.
til
."UStH. That the intriKluction of the four percent system led to the incieavc in the
(luantitv of heer use<
d ? Y(
have ch
enforced.
.'14802. In connection with these matters, do you think the hahi; s of the people
lave cliangei
I with an increase in tiie use of liijuors'l Yes ; since the license system was
;<48();i. .And under permit
.Mv own exp'-rience has led me to helieve that
there was as much di'inldng done in the Territories and .Manitoha when under permit as
in Quehec and Ontario under license .systems.
.'14H04. Did you notice that, while more liipior was consumed, the people, as a iKnly,
w«'re more i;iven to drinking fluring the later than the former years / .hist alMiut tnc
AMKIIKK KmWI'KL FulUiKT.
f ! i f ■
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■>iiiiu'. As tlu' feiilrf's of ]Hi|iulalii>ii iiuTfus*-, you .s»'t' more ilniiikciiiu'ss, T suppose,
hut this is Hcconiitol for by the iiMTcasc in tli»' |io|)uliitioii.
."USO"), Hiis tlicrc Immmi uiorc iiu'i'viist' in |>ro|ioi'iioii to tlit- ]Hj|iuliition .' .lust iilxiut
tlif saiiu'.
.'UHOO. It lias 1 II stati'd tliat not only li(|Uois were ,sinu>;j{l<'<l in, l>ut ooin-
jHiuiiils wt-rc used. |)o you know aiiytliiiii; in reuai'd to tlicin .' Yrs ; tlifsc piactires
were resorted to. i-specially l)y the lower classes of jwople. Where the person or |iersciiis
(iiuld not olitain permits for one reason nr another to eiialtle them to <;et lai';;e (plant i-
lies of litpior, they wouhl purchase from diiiii stores or from other stores essences of
various kinds, pain-killer, essence of j;iii),'er and eiiu tie Colojjne. I know of a case in
I'lattieford where a dozen liottles of eail de C'olo^'iie were IniUirht, and the people yut not
<iiil\ drunk, liiit <lreadfully sick.
.'t1S()7. Takiii^i Canada as a wh 'le. takiii;; the l'ro\ince of <^iiel)ec and our lony'
coast line aiid the international iNiiindary of the I'liili'd Suites, would ii he jiossihle that
a piohihitory law could he enforced practically ( — 1 do not think it could We itiiforced.
;i|S()S. Taking' the Teri-itories as you lia\e known them, and takiiis» the permit sys-
tem, under wlii.'h some liipior was hrou'^ht in legally and s(,nie illcLjally, and takiiii; the
license svteiii: if pr.ihihition wei'i' adopted, what wmiid Ih' the conseipience .' Some
liiiiior would continue to lie iiii|H>rted le;.M!lv and some illeiraliy to a more or less decree,
ai rdiii;; to the amount of strin;.'eiicv exercised. ISut no matter what means \nu
adopted to j;et rid of liipior some people would ;xet it.
.'UKOi). We have heeii told that in order to maki- prohihition a success, it would lie
iii'cessarv to lia\e a lari;e I) idy of oiKcers possessing; tue same powers as the North-west
.Mounted Police, with powei to search houses and persons.' That would not work.
.'ilSlO. I)o you think in Canada, as a whole, such a system would coininend itself
ii. our |ieople ; -I do not think it would he successful in its results. It dues nut coni-
iiii'iid itself to my mind.
Ii;i R>r. l>r.M,L>,„l .-
.■')|S| I. |)ii you express yourself in favour of the introduction of wine and lieer and
ilie encourajfemeiit of their use .' Yes : my ow II |iri\ate helief with respect to licjuor is,
iliat Used nnHleratelv. it is iK'iieticial. The fault is couiinitted liv inanv of takiiiu; more
lliaii
dih
of
course
thai
renders i
t \ei \ unfiiituiiate for tli
Jieop
d
tlieir familie.--., and for the city in which they happen to li\e. and for their friend^
• itJ^l'J. You think that if the use of ii<'!it wines and lieer was encoiirai'ed it
tliiiiiiiisli the use of stron;;er liipiors i Iv all those matters
I heli
ii'\e |ud;;in,i; otlier.-
IMNMlf. it 1
Mtl|C|>
lii'ia
las a L'lMK
I effect on n
d 1 lielie\e it would liaxe a similar ellect on
1. I
I am cpiite content to have a yliiss of wiiii' when I want liipior, fur it is heiie
lid
sooner ha\e a ylass of wine than a
if the fcriiier, I woiiM take the latter.
spiriis
hut in the alisen
I .
'!K()l{(iK AHKLK, of IJeuina, farmer, on heinu duly sworn, deposed as folli
lly .hultjf Mr Ihiiiiihl :
:US|:i. Where do Vol! reside; I reside near |{e;iiiia.
• IISII. How loii^ liavf vou lixed in the .North-west Teriitor
les
I settled here
cailv II,
.Mi
1 sss.
■'14x15. Where did vmi come from
:;
I- V
roiii Wiiinipej;.
If^lti. How loll^ did you live in Winiiipen .' I arrived in Winiiipei; from Thunder
I'lay. whet-e I was the years, liviiij{ liet W4'eii Port Arthur and < Marke |{i\er, in |."<S0. in
lliat vear I went on the survey up to the Pheasant Hill
"U miles north-wes
-t of !•"
■rt
^1 .\ppelle, and hack to Winnipeg, mid came here idtoiit IHS.M.
•Unit. Have you lived here ever since .' Yes.
•'UHIS, I)id you come lier<' originally from one of the other Prov iiu
'liuiiwdlv from Liverpool, Knu'laiul.
249
came here
1
;
H
1 '' J
Liquor Tiattic — \orth-west Tcnitoi'ies.
.'USl'.l. \N licii villi liiiiu' to Wihiiipc;;. ilid >••'" foiiif dii-cctlv t'roin Liverpool ,'~ I
fvt.iiu' to Caiiadii in |H.">.") for Itnissfv iiiui Hctts at tlit- time tlu-v wen- constructing; tlic
(trand Tiiiiik Kailway, and I was stiitioncd at K illusion, and was there tVoin .luly, ISf<;{,
to Ui^tolicr. When I was on the (i rand Trunk at Monti-eal niv (Hstrict
Toronto and (irat'ton.
wa
het
ween
•US^O. Tlie license law was in force down tlh
I
l|>|H
? It was.
.'UH^l. When voii came to Winnipeg; what law was in force reijardiny the sale of
li(|iior .' A license law.
•'US'Jl'. Is the Noi'thwcst 'I'ei-fitories the only country where you have had any
ex|ierience of a prohiliitory law f No ; I have hei-n throu;;h \'erniont.
;Uf<l'-'t. hid you live there? No, not there. I have Ik-cu in .Maine; in 1N7<J. I
left Toronto and went on the Northern Pacific : in |s7l. was mi the St. Paul and Sioux
L
'V,
Hie, and I was in Iowa when it was a |irohiliitory state.
.'Uf^l'l. So you li\<!d in Iowa uiuler prohiltition and also in the North-west
erritories under a prohiliitory law ; Ye.'j.
.'MS-_>,'). Mow did you tind proliiliition work in Iowa ' It was a frauil.
.■<4S"_'ti. Could liiplor he olitaineil there for lM'\erai:e purp(
pots of whiskv and
P"
its of lieer
lid
le olitained there in every towe aiu
i vill;
lye vou \ IS
ted.
;US-_'7. Mow did vou find the law work in the North wi-st Territor
les
I
wil
this, that take the people .is a whole, there are no |ieiiple more teni)H-rate than they are.
1 think that since the license law has come into force, the condition of tliin;;s is U'ttei-
in every way, and there has lieen less drinkini; so far as I could judy^e. I am, h<iwever,
not often in town. The license law is |ireferalile to proliiliition.
did not.
."{JSl'S. hid the people f{et liipior iiniler |iroliiliitioM
.■yj^l".*. In the Territories .' So far as I coul<i judue, some did ;;et it and
.'itSSO. Some lint it in packages, I suppose .' Ve>..
;{4S;U. The last, witness has spoken of sulistitutes U^in;,' used, s,ich as pain-killer.
eau de Coloifne, essence of ''iii''er aiK
loth
er articles .'
I have onlv seen one ca.se of ii,
III
and that was at Collinses. I rememher a man went round and ifot a bottle of jia
killer ; he was iMirderinj^f on delirium tremens from drinking pain-killer. That is tln'
only i-ase I knew of personally ; of course, I could tell vou wiiat others have said. Inii
that would lie only hearsay evidence.
i .' Pain-killer, essence of yin^'er and ditiereht oils
lie, who when he took thosi'
.'V|S."5"_'. Were other articles usee
were used, '{'here was a man named Clinton <ir such nai
decoctions, acted tlie same as if he had taken iiain-kill
iinl when he could not ^et that
he took o|iium, and he |ioi.soiied himself within alMuit two miles of this city.
;ilS."t,'?. We have lieen told that when a man olitained a permit and the ii.|Uni'
iior was
a permit
arrived, he !,'athere<l his friends together anil they drank to excess until the li(|
■xhausted? I have not drank sjiirits si
I
toth
IS country.
1 h,
iiyself. I know that all the fellows would meet and have a ;:<mkI tim
vliiskv and some drank more tlm
had
It was i^iMiil
Ii
HIK
L-a|i
ras jrood for tiiein. The wliite man in re;[;ar(l I
Lior was like the Indian in ren^ard to his fo<Ml, they <■ >uld only i;et it once in a whil
1 they were IkiuikI to make the most of it.
.■{48.'M. .Iiid^riiii;' from your experience, do you think a i;eneral prohibition la\
dile of enforcement ? No.
;{4H;{."i. ho vol! think it is in the inti'iests of tli
intrv that such a law should b<
•t.-d l- N
o. It IS not.
.■(4M.'{(). If such a law were enacted in the co\intrv, a law prohibiting; the mi
mu-
facture, importation and sale of intoxicatinir liipiorsfor ln-vi-rajie purposes, should brewers
and distillers be compensated for loss of plant that would be renilered usele.ssi I tliink so.
.■{4H:{7. a (piestion that often comes to the front proliably not in this new country
is the treatment of the persistent drunkard. There ai
countries, wlio are constantly ap|M'arii
i;; bef<
.p
Iv in the oldii
ire the police court, beinj; sent to |irison tor
short terms and a|i|ieariii;; ay;ain and aj;ain. In the case of such ineii, should they
lie sent to prison for loii;;er terms, or should they lie placed in some institution with m
view to n>tormation.
<li:oiii;K .\HKI.K.
Is a member i
•t' tl
le conimunitv, vv
hat
W( lU
hi )
M' vour O!
pinioi
250
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(hat jMiiiit .' -I coiisidfr tliat it would Im- ii \cry j,'imkI )iIjiii tosciiil liiin tosoino instil ill ion,
Immmiis*' ;i mail wild isi-iiMstantly ilriinix, and <>s|ii>('ial'iy <lruiii\ nii iiad Im-i-i- and whisky
and illirit wiiisky, slmuid he taken rarr of. I rci'iiilci'l in ISS.'i, Cowdi-y I'lios., who
wiTi' laryc store keepers liere, one of whom is in the C-ommerciai Hank at \Vinni|ie;; and
I he olhei' at Fori MaeleiMl and who an' steady men, had a supply of peppenidnt
wliirli tliey k*-pt in small bottles. A policeman eame in and asked if they had anv
I'sseiiees, he iia\ iiii; lirst asked for pain-killer. He was told that they had |)eppei'niinl.
Me said that hedid not know whether it was i-e^,'ulai' peppermint or not, and asked if it
was used for children's eolie. Inspeet4ir Steele laid an information, and those men were
lincHJ .•?•")(• for ha\ini; that arliele. This was enough to make new settlers di.s;ruHte<l with
the country. At Calfjary those men laid TiisjM'ctoi- Steele that they had some spirit
jexeis, and that lie had iM-tter fine them fo" iiavini.' those articles. The liis|)ector told
tlicm thai if they yave him any more im|)'i'lence, he would tine them J* 1, (•((() niore. This
i- I he kind of Irealment the set tiers had (o hear when they came uj) here.
.■US;18. hid prosecutions take place for keepin;; the spirit levels ? -No. Insjiector
Steele said no more; Iwcause everyone kiunv he was the lii<;i,'est drinker in the whole
country. Another fact that hurt the Territories was this : that ;;rand people were ahle
to tia\('l throuu'li the country and ;; t their wine and iieer, while the settlers were
nlilijjed to drink impure water.
."{JS.'t'.t. |)oy')U think pr(>hil)ition in the Territories was practically class prohihit ion .'
-!t was most decideilly so. Toui White, when he was up here, could olitain wines,
«hili' the settlers, like doirs, could not *{et a i;lasK of heer without crinuini; for a permit.
."U.'^IO. You think the license law is more in the interest of the community as a
whole .' -Ye.s, for everylnxiy.
Jiy II -r. Dr. Mr Lend:
Uf<41. You liavo spoken alwut iirohil)ition in Iowa, I lieliev»
spo
les.
■'tlSlL*. ^Vhat years were you there? -Krom li^T.'f to the sjirinj; of \>^~'>. when I
' to Canada, to Poi-t .Vrthur.
.'US};i. There was hardly ]>rohil>ition in Iowa as far hack as |S7"i,at all events it did
it amount to much. Have you heen there since ll^i^ I
I I
lave not lieen there since.
• >isn. In 1SS4 there was a prohihitory law enacted and it remains tiie law still ii
that Stale. Would you think it evidence of success thai the people retained prohihi
tion year after year ', I think it was maiidy retained for the sake of peace and o(li
ri'ciillect heinj; at Sheldon at one time. I was
l'"l"
rho was a lawyer and als
nem
I
<piaintt'd with the editor of the
her of the iiCiiislature. We wer<' ha\ inj; a lonj;
talk aliout the prohihition law. I said. " What is the use of haviii;; a prohihitory law !
I.ouk at Sioux City, licpioris sold and there are I •")() taverns." Me said, " We ha\e lo;;o with
ilic ciuwd ; there are a certain lot of people who arc hound to ha\e a prohihitory law."
;t|S(."i. .Mv idea is that the i>rohihitorv law of Iowa was passed in IS.")!! and \!^'u.
iiid did not come into operation till early in ISSO' You are wron;; there. Iiecaiise I
Ml the St. Paul and Sioux C'ity road, and we
into the State. If you came from !\[iriani, w
,hicl
saw plenty ot iKpior lioiiii; throu^'h
th
1 was on the roai
i, y
OU WliMll
1 kl
that
111.
|SS|
le was a jji'eat deal said in l>ulaii|iic al)ont the withdrawal of the lax
■ ilSM). I know tliei'e has i prohihition in the Slate of l<
iwa since the year
I kl
now sucli was tlie i'as(
:US|7. Y^
was not.
u think that in the North west 'i'ei'iitories prohiliition was not a success 1
■ 1|'<|S. Was that In-cause the permit system was so loo.sely used.' I ilo not think
il uas loosely usimI.
■its IK. You <lid not approve of the permit system, I heliexc, hecau.se il made a dis-
tinct ion Itetwwn certain classes ? The farmers should have liipior in tiieir houses, l)e-
•aiise ,« little of it miifhl .save life. I do not, howexer
heli
.t d
iexe ill drinkinu; spirits.
1.
W,
fh
Mie nearly I'.tJDO feet ahoxi- the sea level, and xve cannot drink spirits as do people on tli<
-IM lex el.
•l|.S."»(). Then you think there is a liitVerence hecau.se of the level .' Yes. < hir level
is I.XltM feet altove tiie level of the sea, and you cannot drink spirits the same as on the
level.
251
il
I '!
H
I rn'M
Li(juor Traffic — North-west TenitorieH.
Hf
.'ll.''"tl. Tlio license systtMii lias Ih-cii in (>|H>riiti<iii since l»t May. hoymi tiiinii it is
siHTcsst'ul .' I ImvcdMJy Imhmi in town a wt-rk <»r ten days, and lia\c not oWsci-vt-d its
<i|MT!ili<)n vci'V rloscly.
.■tlHr)2. i 'ii till' |>c<i|ilc use iijilit Ih'it luTc .' Tlu'V were selling t'liiii- |M'r cent Immt
;UH.").!. How tar fioin Ut'^ina du you live .' Tlircc miles and a half.
.■{|Hr).4. Istlit'i-i' illicit .sale in that i-ej^iim of llie cinmti'y / No.
.'US")"). ]>oyou think it \M>nlil lcs.sen or increa.se drinkin;; if licensed |ilaces were
h
estalilished there? 'riieie are .so few settlors there that I do not think any one vMnild
think of ha\in^ a license<l place there.
lUH.'iti. Would it not In- a convenience.' I do not think the peiiple want one
when they want a little lii|Uor they can come into the town and i;et it. I think th<
j)oo|)le are most leiii|iei'ate : in j'i
met.
•t. th
ley are the most teiii]ierate peoj
ople I havi
;Mf<">7. |s your olijeclion to |>i'ohiliition an olijection on principle, or lu'cau.se, in
your lieli(>f, it i.s not practicable.' It is impracticahle, and tin- people are sup)HKsed to
have the making of the laws in any civilized country. It is entirely out of their jiro-
\ince to .say what a man shall eat and what he shall drink. A niiin is a fi'ee a;;ent, or
he is not a man at all.
.'ilS.")S. l>oyou think the majority have no rijfht to dictate as !i
^oxerii the liijuor trade f No, I think it is a^^ainst Christianity.
.hat I
aw.s siia
llsriK. It has lieen stated that licen.sed pliu-es are a menace to out youiiji men and
l)oys. Do you think there is anythim; in that .' I would not send a youn;; man into a
ta\erii to uel liipior for me if I w.intiil any. I would send a man I would never send a
1 M i\ .
.'tlStiO. If some people U'lieNc it a menace to their children, do yoii not think that
a !ioy temperate,
their wishes should he considered .' If home inllueiices will not m/ike
all the laws in the wurld will not di
."tlSCil. Mijrht they not help.' No; I do not think
■'U."^*)'-'. Then you think the law does not help to make a man Itetter than he other-
wise won
Id 1)
.HI8l);{. Is that true of al
tut a man diM-s not like to he dictated ti
.'MMCi-l. Therefore, all laws that ai-e passed which are not iieed«>d are dictatorial ! —
Of course, the 'aw is a terror to exildix-rs, Init the liulk of the |ieople do not think that
the\ should lie dictated to as to what tliev shall eat and what tliev shall drink.
:l|S(;
Tl
leii III this matter voii wouh
I h:
i\e every man a law iiii
tol
iiinse
I
think
.■Uf<('>(). I »o you think it woidd lie an advantage to lia\e it that way .' ^'es.
.'llNil". \N ould it hel)) to hrinjf aliout a lietter condition of tliint;s if the trade wen
not estalilished ! Then the condition of ihinvcs would U' a "treat deal
Wdl'SC,
e is estal
.'{(SCiS. Voii think the condition of thinifs is inoi-e favoni'ahlc if the trad
lisli(-d .' I think, under these conditions, lM>tter liipior is sold.
.'ttSd'.*. I Ki you know whether the license law s Ltenerally are oliseiM'd or not ! No.
•US7l). Mere or anywhei'e else ,' As my experience has heeii larp'ly here, I could
not tell you.
•"ttSri. Ha\c the laws lieen )iretty well oliseixed where voii ha\e lieeii ! -I tliiiil
IS a rule, the laws have Ih'cii well ohsei'ved.
■'US72. l>o you know whether the lieen
sees sold on
have known of that lieiiii; ilone in some places. In stayinj.' at
not tell whether th
a certain extent.
uiiiiavs a
aiL'e
nd after lioui>
hotels
I
you could
I I
le were "liests ol' not. hilt llo doulit tliev do violate til
law ii
.'t lcH7;{. So the license law i^ not only not oliserved, luit \ iolated ! Yes : tin- fault
is that the police are not ;;iven any op|Mii'tunity to catch the oU'endei^
•'US7 I. So, ill re>;ard to the license law. you have the same oliii^etion to it as vi
h
lave to a prohiltitory law, liecaiise you
think it would he violated '. If the license 1
av^
is violated, do you ohject to it on the
-No.
(tKOHtiK .\hKI.K.
Hanie ^iiiund lus yon (
552
lo t<
a lU'o
hiliit
ol'V law
57 Victoria.
iSossional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■>IS7"i. \'<ni liavi- Ntiiil tliiit a |iriiliiliii<iry law wmilil Ih' a t'ailiiii-. iH-caiisi' ii would
111- (lisii'i;ar(|c(l ; w liy, Iht-ii, <lci vmi mil think tlif lirnisc jaw a I'aijiir*'.' I (in iiui cnii
xiilt't' it is a t'ailiii-c. 'I'Ik' |>i-iiliiliitiii'y law lias nut liin^^' toiln with it. Thf iii;;i>iiiiit v nt°
man will (liitiiiii lii|ii<)r. It can Im> mail** nut of alnmst aiiytliiii;;, ami aiiywhi'i'i-.
.■U'*?'"!. Can y<iu niakf it (Hit i»t' |MiiatiH-s, nmlassfs, A'r. ' >'cs ; a (ifi'Mian <liMlor
savs that it ran Itc inatic lait <it' sawdust.
.11^77. I think ymi iliil nut i|iiilr answer my ijui-stinn, v^hfllicr \iiu (iltjccicil tn tin'
\i(ilatii>n nf tlic |ii'i>hiiiitiii'y law ami iliil mit iil>i<-rt to the \i<>latiiin nt' the Jiii-nsi- hiw.
ami ilrclai'i'ii it wnnhi not i)r a tailurr, on tlir s:iinr !,'i'oiin(| / it' i MmmI in town, ami it
was after closint; liuurs iitui I wanted a lirink, I wouM not eni|ea\>iui' to iret it. it',
lioweMT, I could u'cl tile di'ink, I Would take it.
.'U><7S. 'I'heii voii Would lie a |iaity to tiie \ioiiilion ot' the law ' ^'es, anil I he law
is thei'c to |iunis|i me it' I \iolate it.
.■ilS7".t. W'oidd tliat lie t'air to a |iii>liiliilory law ' hoes not your •-ysleni anioiim !o
this : that, in youf u|iini()ii, lus rcpiiiis liijuof, cvcit man wmild ilo \ery well to he a law
unto himself ? No. I consider tliat it is a lienelii to the town, liecau.se it i;eis the
revenue.
.itSSO, i>o villi think the |-e\eniie i> necessary! I think so. If the teetotallers
wiiiild siiIisci'IIm' the money, or a little money, towards t he jiulilic ex|ieiiditure, tliey
iiiiifht lieiietit thecomitiy.
■'ilH^l. You think a license law is necessary for rcM'tiiie iiurposes '. ^'es.
:USS2. i »id von ever think of this, how iniicli it costs the coiintrv ti lied t he
revenue.' 'I'liere is just as much exjieiise alioul collecting other revenues as there i> in
collectili;; li<-ense fees.
.■<4HH.3. Have von ever considered how tnuch it costs th iiiilrv in one vvav or
iinother, imiiii'ctly or directly, to i-ollect tiiese revenues .' if you want lo^o into the
i|Ueslioii of ta.vation, \ miiiiit say that i consider tiie income tax the liest wav in which
to raise a revenue in t his country. i think in I'lnulaml the ri-veniie on s|)iriis is more
easilv collected than any other tax imposed.
.■i|<"<f<l. 'I'li.'ii tin' tu.x jjrnw- lar;;er in |ir<i|>ortion lis tlie | pie drink.' .\ccordiny
to Mr. (■osclieii, the late ('hancellor of tlie ivxciiocpicr, it is so.
."ilMJ^-'i. 'i'heii the country tlirives on swollen revenues iis the people drink .' I >o the
people thrive in pro|iiirt.ii)H as they drink .' it miiihl Im- so in some I'ases.
/li/ Jiidifi' Mflhmiihl :
.'VlHHti. r understand from wliat you sav that you think a prohiliitory law is an
interference with a man's lilMM-ty f - Yes.
;llSf!7. And tliat tlie license law allows a man lilierty. liui pii'vciils liim aliusiii;^
it .' Yes.
.'U>"*SS, ,1 ud;;in;^ from voiir experience, have voii found thai the law works fairlv
ucll ' Yes.
.'VlS.s'.t. i »o you favour tiie fij{id iiiHpeftion of liipiors umler a liccnsi' law .' ^'es,
:!)S!t|l. A \( ry ri;;id ins|iection, i suppose ( ^'es.
• IIS'.M. 'I'o see tliat proper lii|Uors are sold to the people .' ^'es.
•'USitL*. Have you ever considered the (piest ion of a hiijh lieeiise l.iw ' 'i'iiat is a
matter tliat tlie State sliould determine.
^tlS'.t.'?. \'<iu iiave not coiisidere<l that quest ion at all .' No, I have not. Wlieii i
was oil tlie (iraiul Trunk itaihvay lii|Uors were a N'oik shilling; a j,'alloii. i>urin;; later
vears I was west of 'I'iiuiider iJay and the roiul was under tiie I'lililic Works Act, and
there was less driiikin;; and tiie men saved more of iheii- wayes. When we were iietween
'i'iiunder l$ay and W'imiipt';; tliere were from H)U to l.OIJU men i-mployed. At tliat
tiiiie lii|iioi' was lirouf^iit across the iMiuiidary, and tiiere was less drinkiiiji; on tlie
t'anadian Pacitic iJaiiway ; I tun now .s|K'iikintf of tiie work iietween 'i'liuiidor Hay aiui
Clarke IJiver.
253
•
ii
Lujuor Trultic — North-west Torritories.
I '
I' i'
li ii
•FAMKS IIAHN'KY, <tt" Indiiiii Ifoiul, turiiHT, mi licinff duly sworn, (I<>|m).s)>iI hs
foilowH :
Ity Jtidiji- ,]/<• //iiiia/il :
'.\ixm. How loiij; liiiM' you r)*Hi)l(!(l ill tin- Norlli-wcst T»irritorit*n ? -.Sinct' lf<S'2,
iiUtut H> vi'iirs.
.UMD"). |>i(| you L'oin<! Iiei-e from oih? of th<' otlicr provinceH ? Kioin Ontario.
34H9f). l-'ioiii wliiit (Hilt? Fn.ni tin- County ftf Poel.
.'5|H',t7. SiiK-t- yoii ciiiiM' to these Tfi-ritorics liiiVc you iiiwiiyN lived at liidiiiM He;id
Mid the iiei^lilH)urli(/o<l f Yes.
:{|H!»8. What has lieeii yoiii' experience of a prohiliitory law in the N'orth-west
Territories ! When we eaiiie up here it was prohihitive, and it worked fairly well.
;UH!(<.». Were the Mounted Poliee statifiiied in that seetion ? - They were nil
tlirou^h the country, and they .searched exery settler's wapm.
;U!lOt). 'I'hey searche<l the wa){ons to iiiakesure that no li<|Uor was l>rou^lit into the
country, I siijHM»se ,' - -^'es.
.■{|'.H)|. l)id you know of any case where liipior wiw found? — Not personally.
.'tUtUJ. Are you yoin-self favouraiile to jirohiliition ? Yes.
.'U'JO.'t. Had you reason to sup|Mise that the law was well olis*>r\'ed anion;; the people
in the country? I think it was at that time.
.■U!M)4. Was tlierea|ieriiiit .system in force at that time,' - I do not think there was
very much liipior l)roii>;ht into the country.
■'U'JO,'!. After a time, <iid you find that the liipior he^in to inci-ea.se in <|uantitv in
the community? — Yes, I think it did. 1 heard some of the peopli; talking; alM)ut ;;ettiii<.'
it.
."UlMXl. Were you told that the people yot liipioi' under |K>rniit ? Did thev du't
together and ;;et liipior hrouj^ht in ? ^'es.
.'tl!t07. Have you seen anything of that kind? — No.
.'{■UtOS. Are you a total ahstaiii'^r'/ -Yi's.
;U!tO!(. Were you so when ynu came to this country lirst? Ye.s.
.'MDKt. S<» you individually would have no part in such a matter? No.
'M'M 1. Have you had any exi«'rienco of a prohihitory law aiiywhei-e else?-— No.
•'U'.Ul.'. I*oyou think a ;;eneral jirohiliitory law, a law prohibiting the manufai^ture,
importiitioii and .sale of into.vicating liijuors for lieverage purposes in Canada, could Ih-
ert'ectually eiifon'cd ? — I see no reason why it should not diminish liipioi- to a great extent
in regai-d (o its sale, and thus carry it out to a certain extent.
■fUM.!. Taking tiie province of Canada, Ontario, from which you come, judging from
the liahits of the people there, do you think a general pi'ohihitory law, if passed, could
l)e enforceil there? I think there is no douht hut that it would (Uminish the .sale of
|)<|Uor and the consumption.
.'UIH I. In case of the enactment of sudia general prohibitory law, would you favour
the granting of compensation to hreweix and distillers foi' loss of plant that would he
rendered useless? — No : I do not think .so. I would ratluM" .see the widows and orj)lians
uoiiipen.sat<-d for their losses through the licensing of the tratlic.
■■<4y|."». ^'ou jir*' opposnl to the licen.se law, f sup|MiHe ? — Yes.
.■Uitlti. ho you consider the licensing of the traffic to l)e a sin ? — Yes; I do not
think it is right..
.'UiMT. So you are opposed to a liceii.se law, not only on the ground of expediency
but Ixicause you think it is wrong of itself ?— Yes ; J think it is wrong of it.self.
.'{4918. Have you had any opportunity of observing the working of the license law
since it has come into force ? - Ye.s, a little
.UMIK. How did you find it work ? -I find it increiises the drinking.
.■Ul)2<). Are there many licenses at Indian Head ? -There is one.
:My.>l. Is it held by ai'i hot^l? Yes.
.■U'J22. Do you think there is more liquor drunk in that section now?— Yes ; there
ha.s lK?eii more drinking there since the four per cent iM'er was introduced.
Jamks Hakvkv.
254
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
V.
:l4!tl.':». Huw li.iijj iiii>, wiis tliiit ; III |.'<f<X or IMS'.".
■'i't'.*'it. From timt tiiii<-, in your o|iiiiioii, tlicrc iias Imtii tin in('i-t*ii.se ot' driiiking? —
.'M'.>2."). Has it iiicrfustvj sincf May .' — It is still imTeu.siii>,'.
.■{H)2<'». Duyoutliiiik there is more (Irunki'miess? —Yes. I'luifr |ii'oliiliitioii wlicii
we Krst caiiu' to this count i-y, we would m'\<M' sec a dniiiken person.
'M\>'27. Tt luis Ix't'ii stated that the people in the Territories weie in the iial)it ot"
usin^ liain-killer and other couiixiuiids J -I have heard of the use of pain-killer,
."Uil"-'.'^ Ha\e you ever seen it used ? No.
lili('J!>. Then you know tlii» .simply from heai'say ? -Yes.
.'U'J.HU. Do you know anythin;; as to the ijuality of the liquor hrouuht into tin-
Tei'i'itoi'ies at that time, whether it was of an impure chai'acter cir not ? I know- nothin<{
ill regard to that matter.
."U'.t.'U. Was there any illicit .sale farrietl on tlirou;{hout the country?--! know
iiiithiiiK alMiut that matter.
% /(•^r. Di: MiLeod:
'■WXVl. Of the three systems : the peiinit system of early years, the four per ceMt
lieer .system, which prai .ically aiiolished the permit system, and the license system now
ill force, which did you think to he most conilucive of the sohriety and well l)ein<j;of the
imunity ! The permit system of early years a hundred times over.
.■U!t;{;{. We have had it in e\ idence that once in a while in a (ilace where prohibition
i\i>ts, there is a tendency on the part of the men to ffet drunk. i»id it have that effect
im voii .' 1 do not think so.
.■U'.t.'U. So you were |ii f ajjain.st the inducements of pruliil>ition ?— Yes.
.1 A.MK8 IJ]{<)\\'N, of |{e;;ina. Secretary of the lioard of Education, on lieinii <liily
vworn, deposed as follows : —
Hi/ Jiidyt' MrDotmId :
'.\[\y,\h. Mow Ion;,' ha\'e you resided in the Northwest Territories? -About 10
vi'iirs.
.■itlt.'td. Where did you reside hefoi'c you came to the Territories?—! was al)out
tliice months at Winnipeg; and about 10 years in Montreal.
.'U'.t.'JT. Are you a Canadian ? — No ; 1 am a Scotchman.
.'il'.t.tM. Have you ever lived in any other country than Scr»tland and Canada? —
Nil : but I have travelled a ^jcKid deal.
.'U".>.'5'.). Have you been in any other prohibition countiy than the North-west 'J'eirj-
iiiiics? Yes ; F have been in Maine and N'ermont several times.
.'UHtO. Was it merely passim; throu,<,'h ? — It was [lassini; throu<.di.
• lUt 1 1. Did you stay in tho.se States at all ? I remained a week at Portland, Maine.
.111)42. How did you find prohibition work tliere? — The people ^{ot ll(|Uor in by the
li:nk doors.
■'i<!t|.<. And how wa.s it iit Vermont? — It was the same thing.
.'IP.MI. Taking; youi- experience of 10 years in the North-west Territories, have you
iiNJiicd at Retina all that time? Yes.
;Uy4.">. How did you find prohibition work here ; was it effectually enforced? No,
il was not.
.'i4'.t4(>. Was li(iuor to be obtained for beverage purposes? -Yes.
•■i4it47. It has Iteen so stated to us to-day ? -Yes, and it was of very bad quality
iiii t.
•t \\H^. We have l)een told that people would u.se pain-killer and eau de Cologne ? —
1 lui\e never seen ea.ses of that kind.
255 ♦
I ,;!
! I
Liquor Traflic — North-west Tonltori«'s.
'IIU'.I. Ii \\tii alsii Im'I'ii ^laii-il tliiii tlii'i'i' was ii ciiiiNiilei'iililc ijimiit il v nl' li<|Uiti'
isinii'.'i.'li'*! ill, aii^l that tliiit Ninii^ri^'lril lii|Uiii' iliiiiiiiisliiMl at'tci- tlii' |»'niiil ><v-«l)-ii
I was
iiit I'odiK'i'd .' I liaM' hiard <it ••\if\\ i'asi>>, nf simiif^lcil lic|iiur Im-Iii:.' Iii'imi;.'IiI in in
<|iiaiit it ii's.
:>('.l>')l). \\'a>i li(|ii<ii' lii'iMiL.'lit III. iiiiilt'i' tli*> (ii'i'iiiit systi-in, ■>! a |hhii'i'i' i|,iulity than
that snniifj.'lr(l into tin- 'I'cifitofifs / I Im'IIcxc so.
•">4'.i'>l. 'I'akiiiit tlif |M'oj>lc iis a \vho|i>, and your olisi-rxat ion of ihi-ni, havi- you srrii
an inci'i'asc of what iiiiLrlit !«' failed a tt-nili'iifV lo drink, ainoin; thf |ico|ilf ^^incr vou
iNiine
ht'ii
I lannot sav so.
^lI'.l'i'J. lias this Ill-en a solier conniiunit v thi'ou<'li<ait the ditt'ei-ent veiii's .' '\'\i
j)eo|tlo hiixe Ween iiioce sultef since the license system came in
I l>el
lev*' 11
( the l..ttiis-
downe Hotel thei'e hils lieeii
di'inki
ll.T I
li-i-nse I liai
ll
lere \\a,s
lH-t'<
.'il'.t.');!. We have Ujen told tliat iindi-i' the |ii'i>hili.toi'y -.vsirni peiniits tor li<|iini
would lie olitained and haxiii;.' L.'ot them, the part ies would invite a tew friends, with tiie
result that when the lii|iii>r arris ed there would lie a |>rolonL,'ed period of drinking' 1
liave heard of that.
.'U'.>'it. Is thei')' any truth in tliat a]let.'ation '. -I Iuim- heard that sueli wiis the case.
.tj'.t.j"
.lu«i<
if tl
;;ini,' troin what you have seen of the prohiliition system, the periml
th
system anil the licen.se system, whicii do you think preferalije for a roinmuiiity .' I think
icense law.
the 1
.'M'.l')*). It liiis lieeii chariced liv a witness here this moi'nin;; tiiat the wo'rkin;; of the
permit system was in favour of a class who yol lii|Uor more easily than other clas.ses of
th
I"'"!'
exiierienre
I )o VOU know whether tha* was the ca.se or not .' f liavi- had a littli
in respect totlu- <;riintini: of peiniit>
il'.t'iT. As a citi/en, ha\e you had any experieiici
I have heard that some peopi
could not vft't permits, wiiih' otliers could do so. I d<> not know of any special case:
.'1 Ht.'ii*'. .ludyiiii.' from your experience of the jirohiliitory law in tlie Territories, rli
you tielieve that a j,'enei'al proiiiliitory law. a law |irohi)iitinL,' the iniinufaclure, import
tion and sale of inttixicatin;; licpiors foi' lieM-raye purpose-, could lie etlect
a
uallv enlori'i'il
ill Cai-.ada .' I do not.
;{4y59. In case sue) I a law were passed, would you deem it rifjlit that luewers and
distillers should lie remiineraied for their loss of plant '. 1 think so.
.Si'.Mitl. A i|Uestion that has been considered is liie treatment of the persisteiii
drunkard, the man who is constantly iM-fore the police court and is si-nleiieed for shori
tei Ills of imprisonment. It has lieen sui,'p'sted that if sueh | pie were loi'ked up f"
some len;itli of time in an institution for inel>riati>s. much iiiMnl mi^'ht lie don
What
is your ojiinion on that matter .' I think that would lie interfei'ini; with the liherty of
the suliject.
." ' '()i. You think it would lie better if such men were kept riiniiiii;L.' from tin-
saloon to the police I'ourt and then to tlie jail and liaek auain to the saloon and so on .'
I think souie effort should lie ina<ie to reform them.
.■$4!((iL'. It has lieeii sujiju'esti'd that liy putt ill;; a |iersistent drunkard ill all ineliriai>
asylum h' ,iiij,'lit he reformed, and if he was not reformed, he at all events woulil Im- oiii
of temptation .' Yes.
.'! ilMi;S. i to you think it would U- w ell to deal with a man in such a manner so as ii<
reform him if possible. Would you liojie to reform siic-h men by the mere enactment nt'
u jiroliibitory law? Xo.
M4'.H)4. If a prohibitory law were enacted, would you hope to enforce it with ri';:ai(l
to such men ? T iiavc had no experience with re;;ard to conlirmed drunkards, and -o I
really couhl not say how far you could go in tliat direction.
Jiy Jifv. Dr. McLevd :
.'U'.tOr). l)u you think prohiliition was enforced in any tlegree in the Territories
under the old hiw ? Tt was enforced to a certain extent. If they wanted to get lii|iiiir
in ojienly, that is htiiiestly, they had to get permits. I have heard of several sei/urcs iit
li(luof coming into the Territories without permit.
Ul)60. Then you think tiiat the jirohibitory law was not very eflectually enforced '
-I think so.
Jame8 Brown.
256
57 Victoiiu. SesHiinml Pa|HMs (No. 21.) A. 189-1
:tl'.tti7. I>i> you think timi tliiii wax lM>fuutf tin- |irii|iiliitiiiii xmo u iniiij, nr \mis u
iltic In tlif |MTinit nvsIciii! I lliiiik iId* Hcniiiiiciit of tin- |ii'ii|ilf wns n^'uiiiHt |ir<i|iiliitiiiii.
.'t I'.KiS. Iliiw (III villi arrixf at lllitt rMllclllsinn f 'I'lkki' tin- last I'li'rtioll In tlir l^'uJK-
|jiti\<- Ax><i'tiililv : oiir lit' llir It'juliiiu' i|ii<'stii>iis xNas ilic lii|iiiii' i|iii">liiiii. atiil the iiiajotity
• it llif I'liiistitiii'iiciro si'iii a^ i'i'|ii'i'st>iittili\rx ini'ii >\lii> ai|ii|iti'il a lio-iisi' sS'.it-iii. I inn.
■<ii|t>r tliat tlii-v i'c|ii'CNcntc<l tlif ;;fniTal ••)>nlinifnl >>( tin* |>i'n|i|i'.
.'U'.Mi'.i. W'c liail ill I'x iili'iu'f tii'ilay t'i'niii t wn incnilii'i's nt' tin- Assi'iiiiils. tin- Icailn'
lit' tlii> ( ioMTniiH-iit anil t III' I'i'iii'i-sciitalivf of this (li>4triri, that tin- ijiii-st imi nf lii-i'ii-i>
,'> IN"" |irnhiliiliiiii w.is nni iIh' ihii-t' issur at ihai riiTiinn ' li \mis nni' nt' i Im' iliict'
iNsili'K. In niv iiiiikI.
.'U!*'!). I think ilic Iraili'i nt' tin- I himtiiiik'HI >aiil. anil I am imt ^iiri' liui iliat
aiinlhiT \\ilni>s-> Maiil inactirally thf saiiii-, that at tin- tiiiir lliiit i|urKlinii was nnt in tlir
t'lniit .' It Nwi.s priMlv iiiurli tn till- t'lniit ill Krifjiiu at that tiiiM-, iii-i-aiiM' I aiicnilcil two
liTtiiii"* iiv Mr. S|ii'ni'i' whiji' ihr I'li-iiinn was yniii)^ nn.
.'tlil7l Knth nt till- iiii'IiiIhtn said thai lh)> ri'|>ii'siMital ivi'~ >liil imi i;n in tlii' I,i>^Jm-
latiirc I'hari^i'il li\' I he |ii'n|ili' in i)'|ii'al tlic |>in|iil)itiii \ la» anil i-nart a licrnsi* law. At
Irasi thai was iln-ii' lest ininiiv. W'liv i|n \nii think thai lici'iisr is |ii'i-t'i-i'alili- .' Iii'iansc
I iliink that a iiiiui shniilil Im- li>t't in ha\i- liisnwii ii|iininii mi that .siilijcft. Ii uniiM Im<
\iTN iniii'h iH-ttfi' In ha\r a lirrnsf sy.stfin sn that a man can ii>i anil ui-i iiijiini' n|ii'nly
am! jinnt'silx. anil nni i,'ii in liy tin- luii-k iI<hii, as thi-x <|n in sniiii' plait's.
.'U!*"'.'. ^'nii think till' I |ili' sjiniilil liaxc lliiir nw n ci|iii,iiin mi this >iili|fil, I sii|i-
|Misi' ' ( 'I'l'tainly.
.'I4'.l7>t. I>nvnii lliink il ii^lil tni |it'np|i' In haxi' an npininii iintav miraMr In lii'i'iisfj
(■fitainly.
;U!)7'I. It'siii'h prnpji' Well' in till' iiia|nriiy, wniilil il ill' rii;iii t'ni I lii'ii' npininn In
|>i'i'\ail in li';;is|atinn .' Nn, I iln nnt think thai nn that siili|i-i'i, tin- ( •iiM'innii'iit
liiivf any ii;;ht In intiTtVir, iinlt'ss a man yni's in sui-li an I'xli'iil as in Im' a iiuisanrc lo
ill mniiinity.
.'itti7'>. riirii I hry hax)' ii i'i;;lit ti> inti'i'tVif with him. I sU)ipnHi' .' I think sn.
:il'.i7ii. I >n \ nu I liiiik I III' ( inw'i'nnii'iil lias any iiu'lil in niliTt't'ir with t hi- licrnsint;
lit till' I lallir .' I <|n nnt I hink I hat I hi' < ln\ iTunii'iil has ,iny liyhi tn iniii t'lii' with mv
liax in;: liipmr it' I want il.
.'U'.'77. I mraii in dralin;.' with tin' traih'f I U-lirM' in tin- iii'i'iisi' syslfm.
:(l'.t7'''. hnynu think that thr ( iiiM-ininrnt shmilil intcrt'i'it' w illi ihi' t lailr hex miil
lni'iisin;; it .' i wniihl ha\i' ihi'iii i;n sn t'.-ir as tn si>c that lli)> liipinr snhl was |iiii'r.
.'il'.'7!'. Thi'ii ynii wiiiilil liaM' till' inspi'i'iimi nt' liipinrs f \'i's,
;l|'.'.'<0. l>\ what ri;,'lil wmilil ihi' < iiiM'nnrii'ni intcrt'n'i' i-M'ii that iai' ' llri-.nisc
iIm'V liMik at'lfl- till' adlllli'iatinii nt' tmnl ; tlici'i' is a ii';;iilai .VdllltiTat imi Art.
.'(I'.IMI. ^'mi say iIiitc shmild U- nn intfi'tVri'ni'i' with a mans rii;hi.s in this mailer.
Il'iw is it, (hen, that iht' (invci'iimi'iil an' alilr in .miy In a c-crlain niimlii'r nt' pcnplr. vnii
may srll ; Imt Innthcrsymi may iml si-lj .' What riuhl has [[^f ( InNcrninint In sax ihal
I'Vt'i'X IkhIx in Iti'ifina .shall nnt srll, luil that mily halt a dn/i'ii shall si>|| ' Mt-caiisi- they
iliink that a halt' dn/.t'ii mrn can supply a siitlicirnl cpianlily n|' liipim's tn siijiply thn
iM'i'ds nt' till' tnxvn.
i> l!''"'*l.'. It' tilt' I inxrinmi'iil ^aiil thai ihfx wmilil iml alinw I'Xi'n llmsi' halt <ln/i'ii
iiii'M In si'll. xxniilil iIh'X Im' aft in;; » iciii'.'iy ' I iliink I hey wniilil III' w rmiu.
.'ll'.tS.'t. N'mi think lIu' liri'iisi' laxx is prflrralilt', I aiisf mm will liaxf drink and
|ilaci's shmild In- I'sialilishi-d xx lirri' ihi'y cmild yi't it ! ^'(•s.
•'!|'.lf*l. Uut viMi xvmild intt'i't'i-rt' with men xvlin drink I'xci'ssixi'iy and lit'innni
||iiisaiu'i'.s ! \rH.
.'1 l'.tH.">. Is that nnt an inii'rt'i'ri'nir xxith a man's riu'hts .' 'i'n a I'l'iiain i'\lfnl il is.
"il'.tSti. Itul I snpptisi'. Nxhi'ii III' Ix-rnint's a liiirilt'ii In thi> I'mnmiinity, hi' shmild In-
laki'ii i-ari' lit' '. I think sn.
• 'il'.i87. it" tilt' pfoplf t^> a larjir I'.Mcnt lit'lifxi' t hat I In' liipmr i rallic is a nuisancf
I" tlit'iii, liaxi' llu'v the finht tn iji'iil xvith it, as ymi xxmild ^jixt- thi-in thf ri;;ht tndi-al
" iili niif mail '! It" till' si'iitimt'iits nt" thf pi-nplf wfif nxi'rwhflmini,'l\ in that way. ilii'v
XV I III it I (III SI I.
•Jl 17**
-'.-.7
m
if
Liquor 'rratlic — Nortli-wost Teiritorios.
.■{4!>HH, Tlu'll tlic Vdio- <»t' tlif |M'u|)ln W(»ul(l Im- law '! I Itelifxc tlic ;iii\iMMinfii( of
tlii» country in tlmt of tlic |i«'o|ile t'oi- tln' |i<>o|ili>.
.■{4!>H!). You iii»^ Sccii'tiirv of tln' H<MUfl of h^luciitioii, I utidcrsttiuil ? - V«>s.
.'VMt'.M). Is tlit'i'«' II Su|H'i'iiit<-iulfiit of Fi<hu'iitioii f- Yes.
.'149!M. Yt>u iiic Aclinjj Su|M'rint«'ii(lt'nt : do you fulfil tln'oUitcof Su|M'iiiitcii(l('iit I
- Yes.
llHHtl'. Hiivc you HU|M'i'viHioii of tin- NcliiHtIs? Yt'H, with my liisiM-ctors.
.'UOlt-l. What is tlu' (iistiict covered hy you; is it the wl-ile of the Norlli-west
Tei'i'itories ( The tlifee provisional districts.
.■|4i)*.)4. Have you an !ns|K'ctor in each ? We have four Inspectors.
:WM't. For the whole territory '( Yes.
.'UlMM't. Then you have general sup«*rvision of the scIhmiIs, and the lns|M'ctoi-N iwi
under your direction, I supiK>se I -Yes.
.■$49l>7 As .Su|>*>rintendent <»f ScIkhiIs and Secretary of Kduciition, and priu-ticailv
Superintt'iident, you ai'e interesUnl in the youn>;, of course. Have you observed that in
Home places laws are ena<'t«Hi which ]>rohihit the establishment of lii|uor saliNtns within
certain distances from scluH»l-hi>uses? No, I have not.
:U'.)'.>8. That is true of a j^reat many States and of a ;{i-eat many communities in the
States, that the sale of li(|uor is prohibittnl within certain distances of the scli<Hil-hou.ses
or seminaries. Is that a wise provision? -I should say it would U-.
.'UOUJt. Why is that wise? — I supiwise the intention is to keep away the lii|itor from
the younj;.
.{5000. Is that not an intei'ference with the ri;{hts of the youn>{ / I think not.
They are under the charj^e of teachei's and par«'nts until they reach manh<MMi.
;J."»00l. You think that li(|Uor should, however, be kept at a distance from them ;
— If they are rigiclly taught by teachers and by parents, they are safe aj{ainst estab-
lisiied liquor places.
.'Sr>00'2. Do >'ou think that liipior establishments planted in aconnuunity are tempta-
tions to the people I'oundalMtut ? I tlo not think so.
.'loOO;!. Why are tiiey not esl^iblished here, the near the s<,'h(M)l-hou!ses ? It is to
brinjf up the younj{ in a jirojiei' way and to keep tht i away from temptation.
.■{5004. Then such a place is a temptation ? \%'s.
.■$.")00;"). Is it a temptation elsewhere? I do not know.
.■{"jOOti. It seemed to me that possibly, since you have to deal with education, and
as you deem that the existinj; places mif{lit be a temptation to the young, you mijflit
have consideiM'd whether if such a place is a temptation to |)eople who, like the younu.
are weak and unwary and easily led astray?- I should think that with weak | pie it
would lie so.
;?")007. I understand you object t(» prohibition on principle? -Yes.
;{r)00.*<. Whether it is jtiacticable or not, you object to it on principle? — \'es.
JJy Judge McDuiiald :
HrjOOJI. In regani to the (piestion put to you by Kev. Dr. .McI^(m1 as to the sins of
the connnunity in regard to drink and the sale of drink, and m reganl to the man who
becomes a slave to it, two modes ha\t' Ix'en suggested of dealing with them. One nuKle
is this : take a factor}', where 200 men were emplo^'ed, one of whom was a jiersistent
drinker and the other l!t9 men used li(|uor in moderation, some, peiiiap.s, lieing total
abstainer's. The question ar'ises, whether' it wi.uld l)e right to prevent these 199 men
from obtaining liquor', although they use it in unKler'ation, on account of this one
<lrunkar'd : or whether it would not be better' to adopt the second ukkIc, of leaving them
at liberty to enjoy liijuor' in m<Mleration undei' a license system, and put the drunkard
away. Takirjg a case of that kind, which would you consider' the right mode ? I wouM
saj' put the one man away.
35010. You would put iiim out of the r-eacli of li(|uor' rathei' than remove that liquor
absolutely fr'om the 199 men who use it in moderation?— Certainly.
JaMKH JiKOWN.
268
f)? Victoria,
SesHioriJil PajjeiH (No 21.)
A. 1894
.'(■'>0l I. I)<> yoii ri'^iki-il ili'unki-iuicss or tli<> cxcoHsivc iisf nf lii|ii<>i' li^ tln-onlv Imnn-
till tiling tliut n'sultH t'ltnn tlifu^* of strung liiiiik, <>i' mv tlit'ii* otlit-r f\iN that d'huII
iiidiivi'tly tViiin it ',' Tlif f.\(-i>ssi\f use nt' Htroiiij ili'iiik wunlil |i>ii(l a inaii t*i lime hi» >««-lf-
ll'>.|it'Ot.
I 'I
lt<■^illa, ai'fliitt'i-t and t'li^iiifi-r, un liciiiit' <liilv
WILLEA.M HKXDKKSON. .,t
^wciill, (l<'JM>sf««| as follows ;
Hif JiKiiff MeUoiiahl :
.'t")(j|'_'. How low liavf yon rrsided in the Territories? Neai ly I • y^'ar^.
.■l.')Ol-t. Have you resided ail that time in Ke);ina '. N" ; jwrt ot' the tin" I wii> at
ISiitlleford, and partot' the time at <^u'A{>]H>lle, and |>art <>' he tiim at litildtrid^e, and
|iart of the time at Ke^ina.
.15011. Wl'ore did you reside U'tore you '.-ame to the North '.vest Territories ; At
( »ltllWJl.
."(.jOli"'. In Ottawa in Mio.se days, as now, wa8 there a lieensc law? — Yes.
■ ')OHi. Did you, liefore you eame to the Territories, live in anv country where there
wa.s anything hut a license law ? I have always livwl un<iet- license laws.
."{5017. What is your jiusition in rev;ard to the license law : do you sup|H>rl ii, oi' d<.
you oppose it ? 1 prefer prohihition.
.'(.">01f<. l)o you l<H)k u|ion the licensinj; of the tratlic us wrong in it.self .' 1 do
■ Kit think it is sinful. >
.■(.")OI!t. ho you look u|K)n it as something exjteilient f Ves.
.■t.")0"JO. Therefore, you pn'fer prohihition. hut if you could not ohtiiin proliiliition,
viiuldyou rather have license '/ -Yes ; that is the next b«'st thing.
.">.")()21. Froni your exjterience of the ]>rohil)itory law in the North-west Territories,
• lid you find it successful/ I <lid not.
.'{'lU'i'J. It has heen stated here to-thiy that pain-killer and eaii de Cologne were sold
at that time. Have you any knowledge of that ? No; 1 l)elie>e such statements lia\e
lieen made.
;tr)02.'V Hut vou have no personal kno\vle«lge of the fact f~ No.
.■t.")024. You do not take li(|Uor at all yourself, I suppt>se ? No.
;<."i02r). Ho personally you aie unaHected hy the permit .system or the licen.se system
as regards the u.se of li(|uor yourself '!-- Yes.
.■{.">026. Have you noticed any change in the connnunity since the lieen.se law was
adopted! — I think there is more li<|uor consumed ; that is tosay, I see moi-e people usiny'
iiipmr than 1 did Itefore.
.'{."»027. In case of the enactment of a t;ejieral prohiWitory law, would you favoui- the
u'l'anting of compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant and nuichinery ren-
dered useless '( — I think so, since the people give them licenses.
.'i.")02N, In case prohibition was not enactetl, would you keep the nundwr of licenses
il'iwn to a small number? — Ye.s, with very high i'^en.se fees.
;{.')029. Would you favour the inspection oi liquors, to see that they aiv of giMwl
<|uaiity ? A.I to that, 1 do not consider any li(|Uors to be of g<Hxl quality.
.■f.")0;iO. Still you think that a man who buys litpiors is entiilecl to get what he pays
t'M. I suppose ? — That all <lejKMids on what you consider to l)e gcMnl or bad.
•■!.")0.n. And you think it is all biul?— I do.
Bi/ Rei'. Dr. McLeod :
■'l."iO."52. You have olwerved the three systems in operation here : the {lerunt system
ill •ally day.s, and then the four per cent Ijeer system, and now the license system ? —
259
il
Ii
ill
:.
\
!1-~17.\**
r x
•11
i
Liquor T> ittic — North-west Teri'itories.
.'ilO.'t;!. W'liicli do you |irt*t'cr? Tlic first iijuixmI.
;i.")0:t4. I><>raus<- tlmt was |)i-aotically proliiWition .' - Yrs, aixl it ilid luiictically i>ro-
liiliit ; it was aliiuist a |)rol)iliitory law.
.'t.jO.'t"). ! think you said tluil you arc an arcliitect and cnj^inwr .' -Yes.
.■tr)0."{(i. So you conn' in contact with nicclianics and labourers / — Yes.
•■ir)U37. Ila\c you noticed that the drink trade and thiulrink haliit have any special
etlect on nicciianics and skilled laliourers : has it a had eil'ect, in your exiicrience ? Y'es.
.'iTiU.'lS. WluMc did you carry on operations before you came to the 'Perritories ? In
(Jttawa.
.■{50;i!t. |)id you ohserve there that the drink iiahit liad iiny injurious eficct on
skilled nu-chanics .' I did.
.iotMO. Takinji your experience and ohservation of tiie situation thereunder the
licci.se system and coniparin;; it with your experience and oliservation of the earlv pi'olii-
bition laws in those 'rerritori(">-. how do they compare.' The i-esults would lie in favour
of the early system iu're,
.■{."(Oil. S'ou think the results were favourable to prohibition here .' I think so.
•■5o04l'. Ha\-e you been at any time a considerable (MUployer of labour '. I have Hdt
for myself.
;i."ii>l.'{. ^'ou have been superiiitcndtuit of labour. I suppo.se? Yes.
.'{504+. I)id you observe that the men with drinkiiiir habits lost time for that
reason .' -Yes.
.■l.")()4.">. When I say the drink habit, I do not mean alone tin; man who drinks to
excess and i;ets drunk, but f I'cfer to men who drink steadily, whether they ever u'f't
drunk oi- not ' Men who drink steadily and i'ij;ht alonj,' j^enerally attend to their w<fk
l)etter than those who i;et di-unk. Some men can drink right ah, ni; stciidily, and yet
keep at their work.
.'t."iOK). Have you obser-\('d that men who <lrink right alont;, by and 1)\- do not ]ios-
sess the same wage-caridny power,' 1 have obser\t'd that if they continue right jiloni,',
tiicy generally get where the other men are.
;{.")047. I >o you believe that instead of changing the .system and allowing four per
cent beer to come in, it would ha\e be(!n better to have rc^turued to the earlv ))r'oliibitcii\
.system in this country ? That is my opinion.
By Jiuliji' Mr Dotiuld :
:\'tO-ii<. |)o you think thfft in making a comparison between the license svstem ami
the working of |)rohibition, it is fair to take the city of Ottawa and the North- we--i
Territories as the two {)laces between which to make a comparison ! — No.
;i"i(ll'.l. Are not the surroundings between the two counuunit ies and the iwn
sections of the country entirely different .' Yes.
.■i.-iO.'iO. .Sjieaking of men who drink continually, you say that you find that such men
while they may do their work regularly, ultimately fall into the habit of drinking \'>
excess. Have you not known in the course of your experiences a great many men who
|)erhaps take a glass of ale e\ery day and who never become drunkards ?-- Yes ; liut T
consider that tho.se ar(! most liangerous, tho.se aiv men who geneially lea<l others wh.i
have not the same force of will.
.S.")0.")1. Take a case of that kind ; are thei'c not many men who never go beyond a
certain limit ? — I believe there are.
.'{.jO-')L.'. Then youi' icfeiences were really meant for those men who di-jnk to excess.
When such is the case, the liipior proves harmful to the man and imjiairs liis working
power, fsupjMJse? — Certainly.
Jiij Rev. Dr. M,L,,„l:
.■)."t(J.").'i. Do I understand you to say that the man who drinks occasionally aiul never
to excess, injures i'io.se who are weak and exercises evil intlueiices over them.' -Yes;
they ha\e a teiult iic'y to lead men away, those who have not the same powerful w ill, ami
are not able to resist temptation.
WiLI.I.XM IIkNI)KI;.,0\.
880
■vitrkiii::'
I ill, find
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
TMO.MI'SON COOK JOHNSTON, of |{.-uinii, Iciiiistcr, on l.cinj,' iliily swi.in,
<lr|Mist'(l .'i> follows ; -
Itji Jniliji- Mi-lhniitlil :
.■1.">0.")J. Jlou' loii;{ lia\t' yoii residftl in tlic Noitli-wcst 'I't'riitoi'it-s .' Unci- lU ycius.
.'..")(.). ■)."!. Hiixc you ifsided fill tliiit time ill l{ci,'iiifi ,' Yes.
.'l."i(j.")(;. |)i(l y,,u ciiinc liiM'c from one of tlic otli<>r |iruviiic»s ! ^'(•s : I cfimc here
fldlH < Mllflliu.
."('HJ.")?. l''roin wliiii |niii of tin l'ro\iru-t' ? I lixcd 10 yt-firs in Toidiito licfon' I
i-.uiii' licrc.
.'i.")(J.")S. 'I'hc license Ifiw wiis ill foire there, I lielieve .' ^'es. I lived llieie (iiiiimr
tin- time ilie Ihmkiii Aet wiis in force in jiiiits of the |iro\iiice.
."i.'iO.'i'.t. How did you tiixl it work in reittird to securing; iirohiliition f I acled ;is
|>ri»ecutiim- counsel for two yeiirs in York, find ! found the Act to he <i fjiilure.
.'i'lOtllJ. NN'iiiit hiis lieen your exiierieiice in the Northwest Territories in re^ffird to
I 111- proliihitoiT law ,' Prohihition lifis not lieen carried out in the North-west Terri-
iMiirs at any time.
.'i'lOlil. lias it lieen ellectufdly enforced? No, it liiis not lieen eHi'ctUidly onforciMJ.
'■\'^W)'l. What lijis lieen the ditliculty in eiiforciii;: it.' I lielievc it wDuld l)e
ini|iossil)le to enforce |irohiliitioii in any country.
.■i.")U(i.'i. Takin<{ the Northwest Territories jis they ai'e, find the system which is
said to ha\e e.<isted here of <;i\ini; the Mounted Police ;i riitht to search houses and also
I 111' persons of the |ieo|ile. ciin you concei\ e of acountrv where the <ioveriimeni, liti\e
carried out a luohiliitory law .' No, I cannot.
.■>"i(Jli4. Was the l;iw carried out in this section .' No. The (io\ernineiit had excry
faiility for doiii<{ so ; tiiey had the Mounted Police, and idso at that time there was ;i
^I'.irsc |io|iidatioii in the Ter/itories.
.")."i()('i."i. ^'et it was not fi success .' t^uite so.
.'i.'iOiiCi. l-'roiii your experience of the |)unkin Act in ()nttirio find the jirohiliitory
law here in the Territories, do you thiid< .-i ;;eiiertil prohiliitorx law could lie etlectually
ciitorced in Canada/ Not without very liroat ex]ieiise.
.")."i(l(i7. Would thtit expense jirovide for the miiinteiuince of ;i lari,'e polici' force? —
I iliiiik it would take one-hiilf of the pcojil,' of Canadfi to look Jifler the cither half.
.')."iO(iS. Would it recpiire the .sfiiiie domicilifiry visits and the seaichinu of persons
ahij of houses to make it fi success.' Yes, I think so.
.■!ri()()',l. In case such ;i law were passed, should the lirewcrs and distillers he
niiiunerated for their plant and nuichiiiery that would lie rendered useless / In certain
c:i-es, I think sc( ; where the plant could not lie used for finy oilier pur; )se.
• i"in70. Have you oliservcd the operation of the license law since it came into
tiiicc .' Yes.
• >'il)7l. How iloes it fippcfir to work '. It appcfirs to wcirk f.iii-ly well. I do not
tliiiik, liowt'\er, thai ii is aiiv lietter enforced than the ]ircihil)itory l;iw was hei".
■ i-")n7L'. Is there 'ack of enforcement / I am in fii\our of fi strict license law and
lii-li license, find I lidiexc ill the eiiforcenicnt c if such a law you have the true ri'i ly.
."i."i(l7.>. Would you favour a ri^'id and freipicnt inspection of the licpior sold ? Yes,
mil of the places where it was sold.
• !-'"iU7l. Was it (iuriiifi the prohiliitorv period llmt ii Ltreat deal of lic|iior w fis
Miiiiuuled into the country '. ^'es.
• i"iii7-"i. It hfis lieen stilted here today that people were in the liiil)i> of usinii juiin-
killer find eau de Colov'iie and other preparations? I lia\e heard of that lein;; done. Imt
I iiiversaw those firticles used. Tlie ]ieople f^ener;dly were alile to net ;,\\ the whisky
lliiy w.uited round l{e<.'iiui, without resortini; to such articles.
Ill' 1,'ri: Dr. MrLr,„l :
• i'i(>7(i. \'ou spoke al tout !iii\ iiig some knowledj;e of the Hunkin .\ct. When wfis
ili.ii ' Aliout I. '-177 or IS7S.
■'•"'077. In what Countv? In the ("ountv of ^'ork.
2(ii
I .1
r \
1
1. :
i-.
j'
: ';
Liquor Trsittic — North-west Tcnitories,
sonietliiiij^ over two
Tlio
I
.'(r»07S. Tliat is neai- Tiii-oiitii, I lK'li«^ve? — Y«'s.
.■{.")07'.). How long was the Act in force tliero? F sii|>pos«<
yeiirs.
.■{.■>0'<0. What wliere tin- chief (htticulties of eiifoi-c«>meiit in York County i
Act wiiK not sufficiently strict.
.{"lOSl. W»i8 there a good deal of iitijfation in connection with thv Act? — Yes,
think I had alxtut $.'{00,000 in Knes in one township during six months.
.'{.")0W2. Were those fines collecte<l ? Yes.
.■{.oOH."{, The iigitation grew out of the prosecutions, I sup[)o.se .' Yes.
.■J5084. Wok it the efl'ect of the operation of the Act tiiat caused its rejM'al .' I
tiiink it had the eflfect of i-epealing the Act : it was found to lie unsatisfactory.
.■{ijO^'5. Wjvs a year or so a fair test of what couUi l)e done? No; I do not think
it could be said to lie a test at all.
.'inOHf). I tliink you have said that it is not possilile to enforce prohibition any
wliere? — 1 think not.
;{."iO)S7. (;!an you say wliy? — Because the desire for li(|Uor is there, and the s'Mitinient
of the [>eopie is against enforcing such a law, and people will s<K>n find .some means of
obtaining li({Uor.
;i5088. You tiiink the desire of the people is so strong that they would violate the
law ? I think so.
.'55089. Is it possiVjIe to enforce such a law against that desire, with proper officials
and facilities ?— It would l>e possible to do it, if there were pr<»per officials and a sufficient
number to prevent it. The numl)er of officials would have to Ix' sufficient to be able to
catch every one that used liquor.
.'$5090. We had it in evidence by the Inspector of Licenses in Halifax that the only
way to compel licen.sees to observe the provisions of the license law wa.s to have an officer
sUitionefl in each plm-e to watch the licensees? — You would retjuire something like that.
•'{5091. You think that each man wanting to drink would have to l)e watched, or
he would \iolate the law ? I would not go that far.
.'{5092. You would want an army of officials to watch »'very one, I suppose ?- Yes.
.■5509.'{. Is your objection to prohibition an objection to the principle of prohibition,
or to prohibition l)ecause of its impractibility ? -1 lielieve in temperance, if it couhl be
enforced.
.'5509+. Do you think that even the somewhat feeble attempt madt; to enforce
prohibition in the early days in the Territories was, in any degree, successful f — It
succeeded to a m<Hlerate extent. Of course, where li(|Uor was seize<l, it was so far
successful.
.'15095. The only trouble was that the law was not enforce<l ?- -It was not enforced.
.'{5096. Do you think the weakness of the law losulted in any degree from the um-
made of the permit system? — No ; I do not think so.
35097. Did the permit system bring aliout this omdition : that the law as leganl-;
a certain portiim of the people was not ett'ective, while as regards iinother class it wa-
efl'ective, because thej' could not get permits ?- Yes.
.'15098. Did that make an unhappy state of things and caust- friction.' Not to so
great an extent as to cause all the smuggling. Perhaps a man hiul .•>. permit for five gal-
lons and smuggled in fifty gallons more. To that extent the permit system was bad.
.'55099, Certainly the permit system destroyed the effect of prohibition I So far a-;
permits were concerned, but if there had been no |)erinits issue*!, ii<|uor would have been
consum«><l.
35100. Do you think as much would have lieen consumed? Not as to certain
individuals ; I think the others might have consumed as much.
35101. I remember reading in the report of Colonel Heichiner, in 18^<7, thefollowiiia,
in substance; that the permit system should be done away with and the technicalities
respecting the law remove<l, if the law was to be enforced. He seemed to think that
the use of permits and certain technicalities arising from a series of prosecutions causcil
obstructions and prevented the efficient enforcement f>f the law. Did yuu observe any
thing of that kind? — 1 read that stat«'iiient, and thought there was a great ileal in tin-
way he found things.
Thompson Cook Johnston.
1 lit 11 in,
tturt'M.
the list'
lot 111 ^<"
I bad.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
t'luililpd tin- utliotM's to
ijipcai's t<i 1m' liisview
tticfi's rould not well
in thf sanif rt'|Mirt t'tir
.'{"ilU'J. Would not tlu' alMilition of tlu* |iei'init systtMii liavt
have i-ai'ried out the pmhiliitory law to j^reater advantagt". It
that the permit system wa.s .such a rheok to prohiliitioii that I
I'nfoice the law I I would not go that far.
."{.'ilO.'t. He .seem.K to sjiy ho in suhstaiice. I noticed alsi>
1^87, that Superintendent Cotton, re|Mirtin){ from liattlefoi'd, said that every di'<i|i of
liijuor which oanie into that sectioji eame in under permit, and that there was no li(|Uor
^mu^;;le(i. That ottieer appeared to have prevente*! smujiy;lin<;. Do yon think that was
a coi'i'eol statement ,' It is very likely.
.■5."»104. Then it seems that the Mounted Police under certain conditions were able
to prevent smuggling ? For the same reason that there was no liquor snniggled to the
northern part of the Tei-ritories. Hattlefoifl is far away from the port of entry or any
jHiint where li(|Uor could be brought in, and liipioi' would be liable t<i meet three or four
ili'tachments <if police before it reached there.
.{.JIO.'). Do you think that in such a part of the country liipior would lie pi-evented
from I leing smuggled in '! — f do not say that, \ say it would be im)Missible that any
li(|Uoi- would Ik- snmggled into Battleford. The smugglers could sell their ii(|uor ten
I lines over in Regina, and it was not nece.ssarv for them to take it as far as Battleford.
.'{olOfi. And he would oiitain profit in doing so? Yes.
.'{."ilO". Have you notii-ed a difference lietween the present license system and the
liermit system ; is there any difference in the condition of things under the two systems?
I should not like to .say which was the worse.
.'(."ilOS. Then that means that they are both bad ? Do yoii mean as to effects'}
.'{.") 10!). Ye.s. I do not .see much change.
■{."illO. Not more or less drinking under the license law than under the old permit
>ystem ? — F do not see as to effects, iliat there is nmch change to-day as compared with
the permit system ; at le,.i.st there is no more drinking t(Klay than there was then.
.{5111. Then where is the lienefit of the pn'sent sy.st«'m o\er the other .'If tin;
ju'csent system was enforced, drunkenness would be done away with altogether.
;{."»11'J. Do you think it is not enforced ? — It is not enforce<l ; if it were, a drunken
man would not Ix; seen on the streets of Regina. N[(>n are occasionally seen drunk on
tlif streets.
.'{.">11.{. Who.se fault is it.' That of the orticials. They should take means to
ascertjiin where they obtaine<l the liquoi-, and the vendor should lie prosecuted.
.■?.')114. Would it follow that when a man is seen drunk, a licensee has \ioiated the
law in selling that man litjuor?— T think so.
.'l.'il l.'i. Does it follow, then, that the license law is any more successful than pro-
liihit ion and the permit system ? Xo. But the one system can li-' enforced and the
'itlicr cannot ; one is practicable, and the other is to my mind impracticable.
.'{•"illti. You think license is practicable! • I think so; that is, at all exents, to a
:;ii'ater extent than prohibition.
• l.'illT. How do you come to the conclusion that a license law is practicable in the
till f your own stateuient that its proxisions are Niolated, and the city has oHicers to
^cc that it is enforced? Tho.se men have not <lonc their duty, because there ha\c been
ii'i violations punished, and it is in evidence tlwit violations have laki'ii place.
■'<."il IK. Then y<iu think it is the fault of the officials and not of the system t Yes,
I lie fault of the otticials. 1 think tlu' system can be enforced,
•(."ill!*. Were the violations of the old prohibitory law the fault of the othcials
latlier than of the system? — A man could get drunk in those days on smuggled whisky
"I III! liquor lirought in under jiermit, .ind the police could not ascertain how he got the
iliiiik.
.'t.'illiU. Does the present license law provide '.'if the )iiinishment of the inaii
nil liori/.ed to sell and who sells to a customer until he gets drunk ' I coidd scarcely
aiisvvci' that (|uestion. A man, of course, can buy drink, liiit he cannot go intci a licensed
I'laie an<l drink until he gets drunk.
""."ill'l. So a license system does not jirevent sale to a man of a sutticient i|uantily
"II which he can get drunk, but it simply |irohibits sale to a man if he is drunk t Tlieio
■'Ov separate licenses. I'nder a wholesale license, a man cannot sell Ics than a nuai't
2fJ3
! 'ii
I m! '
li
1 ,: ■
lii
I ■
Liquor Tiattic — Nortli-west Territories.
I'lidir a ictiiil liciMisc. tlie licensee <'iiim((t sell ti> a iiiaii \\ lio is (Irimk. or tu a man iiiler-
flJL'teil, III' til a man aildieted to lii|iiiir.
'■>'>12-. Sii you tliink llieiaw lias evidently not Im-imi <-nt'oived hecause there lias
l»een sale to men addicted tu lii|Uor f — I think it" the Inspector in a muiiioii)ality were to
undertake to enforce the law, he could do so, whether the dealer was a wholesale or a
retail dealer.
Ci.") 1 L'.'l. Juduinu t'roiii your oliserxation of the lireiise law here and elsewhei'e, do you
think it is well enforced ! Yes, fairly well enforced ; it is as well enforced here as it is
in Toronto.
Mol^l. It is not enforced here \t>r\ well, I lielieve .' 1 have never seen it liroken
here as reifards sale nt'\fv hours or anythin;; of that sort.
.!:) I •_'.■). I tl
iiiULdit vol! said it was \iolated, and that it was the fault of the oflicial
— That was as rejiards drunkenne:
.Mi. Then vmi think it is as well cnfoiced here as in 'I'oionto nr anvwhere else?
- Yes.
'^^o\^2~ S. Here is a section of the ii
License Orilinance of the North-west Te
ritorie.s, lSill.;»L>. Section fiS
ays
If a pLM'Niin lli'i'liHcil iiiiilci' this Oiiliiiaiuc |it'iiiiit> ^aiiilihiig. ilriiiikt'iiiii'.ss. m any vinluiit.
i|iiiii iclsiiiiK', liotims, (ii- ilisiHilcily iiniihut tn take |i1:ki' mi Ills |iri'iiii.sc.s
)i- sells III' lU'livci's aiiv
iiitiixii'.ttiii;; lii|iiiii' tu any ill iiiikeii |ii'i'siiii, m lu'iiiiit.-^ ami siifft'i.s any ill iinkcii |ii'r.siiii tn cnnsuiiuany
iiitiivicating lii|iii)i' mi li |u\'iiii.ses, nr |)ei'iiiit.s ami sntli'is pei'Mins nt' mitiii'imisly liail iliaiaiti'i tn
tisM-iiililc III' mi'i't mi Ills in'cniiscs. la; shall (in aililitinii to any ntlier |>uiiisliiii('iit iiiovIiUmI liy law I lie
liahle til a |iiiialty nf mit lr>s than twenty tivf ilollais iim nimc than lifty ilullai's. ami, in ilefaiilt nf
payinciit. to mil less than mie m iinire than two iniinths' iin|ii'i.siiiiiiK'iit."
Do yim think the licensees have ohserved that section ?• There are other clauses
in .'idditioii to that.
A';/ ./iiifi/r Mr DiiiKilil :
;i-")lJ'.l. There is a clause resjiectiiii: interdiction, I su|i|)ose .' -Yes.
Ii;l lirr. Dr. MrL.-od:
iK'iU. Then it is jhov ideil that there may lie interdict imis ,' \<
v\\
liij .IikIiJi Mr l)iiiii(ld :
hiiyoii think that this clause meets with pulilic fa\our, and that the set
iti
in
eiit of the people fa\nui's the clause in the license law which |)reveiits ^ale to cortaiii
people : les.
;!.")l.''>l!. Are you able to say, from your experience as a lawyer and as prosecutor
under the Ounkin Act, that I he weight of pulilic .sentiment in favour of the one is mucli
Hieater than the other, that is lietween lici'iise Jind prohiliition : and that it is much
easier to enforce the li^'cnse law, hecause the weiifht of piihlic sentiment is in its faMiiir'
— I think so.
/.'// I!>r. Dr. MrLr<„l .
.■{•")i;i;}. It seems that pulilic sentiment does not insist on the enforcement of this
clause of the license law? I do not think it is my place to inform a;iainst any one.
■■?.")1.'U. \'oi" think it is the dutv of the othcials to enforce the law \ Yes.
.{.-)]. T). I 1
lo ICC com
irt for If^SS. as fi
erniim •'"' "''' ''i^^ ''"I' Suiierintendent I'crry say.s in lii?'
" It will lie ilillicllll tn |ire\eiil the sale nf lieei nf j.'1'i'alt'r alriiliLlic streiiglli. None lint a clieilik'iil
expert cniihl lU'teiiiiine the aniniiiit nf alenhnl in any particular lieer, ami theiefni'e in thi.i ilistrii't ii
V'oulil tie liiHIciilt tn nlitaiii a I'Dluictinii fill' silling a slrniigel lieer tliflli that liienseil."
— ^Ve analysed pinner wine and small beers.
;i."ii:i(i. With what result '.- The 1,'iiin'er wine was found to contain '_' ! per ci'iit nt
aU'iihol and the others coiitaineil h percent.
Thompson" t'ooK Joiin.s'i'on.
^4
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.i.M.'ST. Siipcriiilfinlfiil l^■nA■ iilxi says :
•• The 'liiMiiiul rt'liinis fm- tlii' N'm tli Wfst 'riiiilm ics .■.IkiiiM lie \i-v\ i .intiillN >liiiliril littim- luo
li,i-llly I iiliilfliMlillj; llic nifsfUt lii|lliil I;m . Tlie ciilly ttUit« i>t llir law aic ;ukhii« Inlmil li\ iill In
li.ivclpi'cli most liiiutiiiiil.iiiul Id lliivc Ihm/m llir ill iff iniiMr of llir pciicialili- >ittUili('lit of till' loiilltr y. '
— Tluit (l»'ji('ii<Is un till- jMirlinii uf tlic ciiiintrv in wliich lie ifsidcii.
.■i.'il.'iS. lit' w as rt'sidini; at I'liiu'i- AHmtI '. Mr wniild iint li,i\f tlir cxiifiicrii-f
iliiir we have had lici'i-.
;ir»l30. 'I'licii lie i;ncs 1)11 til say : ^ \
•• Koi- tlini- yi'iUs I \\n\v lictn iilili to ri'|ini I tliat the Imliiilis and ll.ilf liniil> hcic |iai li. iil.ii ly
• liiift ami «rll Ipfliavi'il. W'liat woiilil lie tin- illiil of a liiciisc sjslciii on tlir I'li lull Mall liiiri|> ';
riity ari' very poor now ; Imt if «liisky coiiM Ur fivcly nlilaiiiiMl. I frar liny wonM In- iiiiuli \\o|-.n- oH'.
Tliry alt' ('iifrainliiscil. anil liavc all llii' ijj^lils ot any cili/cii of llic I'oniitiy. an<l ran lie siiIiJiti to
tin- >ainr la« only."
'I'liai seems til lie ill acccirdaiUT witli tlie testiniuiiy of Mr. Meed and .Mr. Kiii-Met. tlial
ilie jieeiise system since it li.id lieeii iiilrndufed, lias really heen a dan;;er tn tlie Indians
.iiul llalf"-lireeds ? ^'es : imt still if' llie clauses i if tlie lii|llii|' law Were en f'li iced, that
e\en wiiiild lint iicciir; tliey cuuld nut sell In any I lalt'-hreed nr I ndian iinl il lie was drunk.
.")."( 140. Is it ymir iiliservatinii that licensees refuse lu >ell tu any mie liaxiiiLitlie
lliiiliey .' I have seen them refuse tu sell.
•'t.'illl. 'I'lieii they did it suniet ilnes .' ^'es. suiiiel inies.
■ 'i't\ II'. Superintendent I'eriv has oi\ en careful atlent iun tn I lie-;e i|nest imis ' ^'es ;
I iielievi' he is at jtresent in iieniiia.
l>i;\. .lOlIN K. WI'lLSlI, iif Indian lie, id, mi lieini; dul\ >v\urn, de|.ii-M(l as
f,, I lows:—
/»'// Jnrhj'' Mr l)i>iiiit<l :
'■\'A l.'{. What Church diiyuii reproeni? 1 ania ministeruf the Presliyterian Cliuicli.
.'••"i 111. Iliiw Iuiil; have yuii li\ed in the .\urtli-wesi Territiiries ? Twu \ ear-.
o">l I"). Where did ymi li\e hef'ure that .' In Suuthern .Manilulia. at i>iii>-e\ain.
•'!")l 111. Where did yuu oume fruin uri^dnally .' Kruiii Scutland.
.■(•"ill?. I su|i])u.<e ill Sutland there is ti license law in f'urce.' ^'es.
•'"•"il IS. Is there any sei'tiuii uf Scutland where there is lutal |iriiliiiiil iun .' Nut tu
in\ linuwledjje.
• i"il 111. ^'uu have the Furlies-Macken/ii' .Vet tu prexeiit sale un Sunday, 1 siippuse (
-There is ill) .sale on Sunday, e .cept at Iterwick, which is uf cuiirse nui in Scutland ; it
i- iiiidc "i" Kniflisli law.
.'i.il.'iO. What system was in f'urce in Suuthern .Manitulia ( A license system.
.'>•") I u I . Is it the same license system as is in f'uri-e now ? — Yes.
"i"i 1 "ij. Ma\e yuii e\er lived ill any uthei puiliuiiuf the Nuithwe-i Tciriliiiics
'HI Indian Head ? — Nu.
;!."i| ")."{. When yuu went there what sysieni was in fune ' The piiiiiit svsiein.
■ i")! •") I. Had t'liur per cent heer l)(>en introduced ! ^'es.
.1.'") I .")."). Was there much cunsuiiied .' -A ifreat deal.
">.")l")(i. Was it fur sale at mure than une place at Indian Head? — At uther places,
■i"i|o7. Hid any peuple hesides those livintt in the village. I refer to those lixini; in
Ml.- iiiral districts. Iiuy it \ Yes.
."i.'il.'iS. On 1st May last tiie licousp .system came into force. I helieve? ^'es,
i'i.")|.">i(. How many licensed jilaces are there at Indian Head.' (hie.
• t.'illiO. Is the license law well ent'orced there { It was not up to a few week- aoo,
it "as not enforced at all.
• '•"iMU. JUit it is enforced now ? -Yes. lietter enforeed than it was. The former Imtel-
Imi'|ici was of such (pie-.|iiinalile chai'acter tiiat he thuiniht it necess,ir\- to clear out of
2ti5
^t
' I
m
li
I H
* )
Li(luor Trjittic — North-west Tenltories.
tlie hotel or In- would liiivt- lo«t liis license. Hftweeii the tiiiu* there wiis a change in
the license system and the time he cleared out, he lan the hotel for three or tour we«>ks.
.{AlCcJ. Who is the pivsent man? — The new man, in comparison with tlie old one,
oliserved the law really well.
.■l.')l('>3. You mean that there wjus a much more satisfactory state of tilings than
there w»us jtreviously ! -Yes, so fai' iin drinking was ctmcernetl.
^•>1(>4. Was that impro\'e<l stat«' of things continued '! — Yes.
.■jr)165. Do you think it is preferahle t<i have a licensee who will endeav<»ur to
ol)serve the law'.' -I )Ls.sume that, a.s a matter of business, he will live up to the law and
that he will try to get the public favour.
;ir)l(l(). Have you noticed any jH-rceptilile change since the license law came into
force as conipar***! with the condition when four per cent beer was sold? — There was a
great deal more drinking when the license law came into force than before.
.'J5167. So the four per cent l»eer had not the effect of causing as much drinking as
the license system?- They hiul to go alMiut it in a different way.
."{5168. Hf>w ? They drank more at night. There was a great deal mttre drinking
through the night, l»ecause the uen who wanttnl to get licpior knew that the law did not
alltiw it. They wei'e afraid to use it through the day so had to use it at night when
they thought no one Wiis seeing them.
.■$5169. Wa.s there an eye seeing them ?— Sometimes there was.
.■?")170-71. What kind of li(|Uor was it? Whi.sky.
;<.")17'J. How wjis it obt<iine<l? — Sometimes by smuggling and sometimes on an oM
peiinit, on the stub.
'.iolT.i. The permit had run out, I supjKKse ?- -Yes.
•■i")174. Then they were acting unlawfully ? Yes.
■'{")17-"). So the li(|Uor wiLs brought in illegally? — Yes, and was coxei'ed by an old
permit.
.■{")176. From what |M»int was it brought in, from .Manitoba or the I'nited Stsites?
— From Manitolxi.
.'5")177. So in the day time the {teople <lrank four per cent iM'cr anfl at night whisky,
when they thought no eye was swing them ! I do not know whether they were content
throughout the day with four percent beer.
.■?5178. But at niglit they would drink whisky?- Yes ; thatis from my observation
and from that of a great many of the men.
3")179. The men iire more .sol)er now than then? Yes, there is however, more
drunkenness going on under license than uiuler the permit system.
•"?")180. Have you calle<l the attention of the Insjiector to that fact? — I do not know
of that particular fact.
.'55181. But this condition has stitpjHnl since the new man has c(»me in ? — Y'es. The
Chief Inspector and the District Fnspector knew the character of the man who had tlic
license before, an<l they refuse*! to grant a license any longer ; but the licensee, tlir
party who now has the license, went around with a petition and got a number of signa-
tures of parties who had no legal right to put their names to it, and the Connnissioner^
were influencwl by that petition to depart from their tiixt decision and grant a licensi'
to the man.
.■?r)18"J. Do you know whether, in acroiilance with section •'{.'?, there was a regul.ii-
|)rotest made against the issue of the license? -There was not.
.■{518;}. Did you take steps to have this done? — Not at that particular time.
■'55184. Did you send in a prote.st in regard to it? Not in regard to that case. Wo
did, however, in another case.
35185. Did you succeed ? — Yes, in a peculiar way. The first case was that of the
Assiniboia Hotel. The petition was sent in signed by, T think, 17 names and purported
to be those of the nearest 20 househoklers. 1 got a copy of the petition from the local
Inspector, and I found that out of the 17 ! idividuals there were 8 who had no legal
right to put their names on that petition. It was not necessary to enter a protest, be
cause, according to law, the license could not be granted, and we diil not do so. 1 coin-
inunicatetl with the Chief Insju'ctor and rei|uested that the District Inspector shoTiM
Hkv. John K. Welsh.
2(J«
oM
rviituiM
n\(iri'
klHlW
Th.-
iml tli>'
ise<>, tlu'
si<itiik
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
If ilitwii oil IhI May and niakt' ini|uirit>s in rei^ard to tlie |iartifs wlms*- i
laiiifs \\t'u>.
1(11 the (letition. He did nut coiiit*. We had a comniittft' ap|H)iiit«ii niendiers ut' tlio
Session and of the Church — to wait on the Commissionei's. They did so and it was
.1 liy;ht to iift the CoiiiinissionerK to observe that point of the law. In fai-t one of thu
(.'oiiimissioners waiitinl to^rant the license in face of th»' fact that whihi ten names weiv
re(|uired only nine were obtained.
."{."(ISCt. What did you say ,' - I was n<»t one of tliose present.
;l."ilH7. Then you have sfKiken from hearsay .' Yes; from the statement of one of
the delej^.ites sent by the elders of the session.
;{.'5lf<S. You did not take any steps in regard to the man who did -^et the litenxe,
I
ipjiose :
-N.
.'{."(IS!). Did he have tin' ret|uii-ed number of names.' Ten i
lames were rei
uir*")!,
Idii those who si^jned it were not of the nearest twenty.
.'l.'tHK). You did not know the twenty names lie iiad, 1 siip|Mise '. I know some of
tlielll.
:t.">l!M. No steps were taken to prevent him jjettin;; the license f No.
•■!.")192. Are you opjHisefl to tlie ii<'eiise law? -I think it would be a mistake to
answer one way or another. A druggist is liceii.sed.
.'!."» I !>."$. We are at present referring to licenses for Ix-verage purftoses ?-- Yes.
•'t.">194. Do you consider such a law is desirable ? I wouhl not like to say definitely.
■'{."• 1 9r». That is as far as you are willing to gt» ? No.
.'i.M'Jti. rf you had to ch(K)se between a license law and unrestricted ^ale, woul<l
you rather have a license system ? ! do not know. If we had unrestricted sale, we
\Miuld obtain prohibition much ipiickei' than if we had license.
■'<">i97. Do you know of any community where ther ^ is unrestricted sale.' The
reason the people do not support prohibition is l)ecause they do iKit get the real facts of
the case.
.■i.")19S. You think that, under licens*', the |ieople do not get at the real facts ? They
<lo not.
•'{•M99. .-Vnd you think that under a system of unre.stricted sale they would get at
the facts ? — Yes.
.'t.'>200. In regard to the opj^osition to prohibition on the (Kirt of those wh<i drink,
I ilcsire to ask whether you think it is a sin for a man to drink .' Not in itself, but it
iiiii;ht be in particular circumst;ances.
•'t."iL'01. Therefore, vou cannot class all people under the one head in that regard '
No.
'■f't20'2. In case of the enactment of a jirohilfitory law, a law prohibiting the manu-
facture, im^Mtrtation and sale of iiito.xicating li(|Uors for bcM-rage purposes, would vftu
t'axtmr the payment of compensation to brewers and distillers for loss of plant .iiid
iiiacliiiiery f No, I think not. They are only licensed for one year, and at the end of
I lie year they have to make fresh application for a license.
•■t")20.'l. You would aj>])ly that rule to brewers ami distillers, iiotwithstandinu the
fait that they had to put in special machinery to meet the ret|uirements of the law ,'
Tlicy (lid so at their own risk, and aware of the fact that the license was only for one
year.
•■i-")204. Have you considered the cpiestion of the treatment of the persistent diiink-
aiil .' Yes : I have had fre(iuently to face tin? fact.
• !.">L'O.J. Do you think that it is desirable to continue to send those men to jail for
slmit terms, or should they be dealtwith in some other way .' I luivf thought a little
further on than that.
•">-'i2()(>. Can you answer the ipiestion in regard to the present state of things. We
lia\i' a license law, and we have such men, and wc must endeavour to deal witli thein ( —
Take them away from the temptation.
•""•'"•-07. You think that would l)e a lietter plan than the (iresent one .' Yes.
• '■"H'OS. And in regi. 1 to the future? — The l>est plan would be to abolish .-i s\stem
'liai necessitates such a condition.
■!-">'_'09. |)o you think prohibition would provide th(> ri'inedy .' Yi's, if it wero
cairii'd nut.
2<J7
( ■■■{
1 '.,',
n
[■f
il'll ■
Liquor Tiafflc — Norrh-wost 'IVnirories.
i')2i(l. |)i(| yiiu liiid tlic stiiiic Niiitf lit' lliiti;;s in Snitlaiiil in ri';.'iiril In |ii'iiliiliitioii
as vmi (
lid li
till
s (MiUlltl-V
III Si'otliiiul tiifiv iiiis Ih'»'ii so far a lii'i-iisc Mvstfiii in
il iIh'V liad tilt' sv.stt'in of liccnsj' a imu'li
•up'
Mf foil ISC, it is an uldfi' country.
• tiiiu' lliaii \N(' liavi- had it licir.
■'>- I I. 1*11 ill)' |M'<i|il*> sit down ijuiftly iiiidfr thai systfiii .' Srotlaiid and Kiiirland
ail' old ((lUiil ru's,
and tlu'V arc vcrv conscrvalivt
Tl
ifv seem
to II
sai'rcd fct'lin
in n-ifard to old institutions, no matter liow ridii'uloiis tlit'\- iiiav lie,
.' I ■")■_' I'J. l)o vou ln'licvf tlif license system in Scotland is a ridiculous svstcm
I toctuis MTc iHiw lie;;iiiiiili^ to treat |>eo|ile as if alcoliolism were a discast
Tl
es.
U'V are
treatiiiii ilic |ico|i|e liy clijiiride of liohl, and it seems ridiculous for the (iovcrnmcnt ti
estalilish tlie means of s|ircadin,ir disease liy contiiuiiii<.' tlic drink trallic. I tliink. there
fore, that the license system is rii
Hii l!rr. Ih: Mr I.,,.. I
licllli
I'l
om your oliM'iN atioii as a minister min<;linL,' amon^' the ((eople, do you
think ]iul)lii- opinion, so far as you are ahle to juduc it in the N.irth-west 'rerritoiics, i.-
a^aiiist prohiliition .' No, I have been told ic|icatcdly liy a numlicr of |ieo])lc with whom
1 ha\e come into contact that in tlie event of our hasiiii; a \(ite on the (jucstioii of pro-
liiliition, as liet ween a prohiliitory law' and a license law , thi'V would \(>te for jirohiliition ;
and I have not the slij.'htcst hesitation in sayiiiij that that is the feclinjf amon<; the
majtirity of the |icii|ile with whom I come intoc<iutact in my past<iral and social relations.
.">"i"_' I t. I think you said that lit|Uor was lirouj^ht in on authority of old jiermits
on the authoritv of thi' stulihs of permits .' Tl
ay
it was done was
this
Tl
le permit
i» made in thii'c parts. There were two p.-irts torn out and sent to the applicant. Me
sent one of ihciii to the party from whom he wished to olitain the liipior, and retained
the other jiart. He would send down one, for e.\am]ik'. to the lliidson Uay Company,
who would send il link with the liipior. If the liipior was met iiy one of the constahles
he would find the pcniiit and lake it out and s(<iul it to the Lieutenant-(iovernor's ottice.
The other jiart of the |ieriiiit, thai which is called the stub, was retained by the hotel-
keeper or the parly lo whom the li(|Uor was sent, and il co\ere(l .so much liijuor. It did
not matter whei
!'
'isoii held il U
i\ or that certain lii|Uor or obtained some moit
liipior, >.o loiiii as he iu.d a permit to cover I he iiuantily. That wasall that was necessary.
.■'i."r_'|"i. 'i'hen so loni.' as he held the stub it stood between him and pro.seeutioii ? —
So loiii,' as he did not keep a larf,'er (|uantity of liipior than the stub would cover.
;i-'i:,' I tl. So the cancellation of the permit has really \ cry little crt'cct ; It had really
little elVect so loii;; as the man could gel lirpior in with the second jiart of tin- permit,
and cover it with the stub.
U'ilMT. Then all after the first lot he had to ifet in secretly? — Ves.
:!.")•_' 1 c*^. Speakinj; as to the license law, the (piestion has arisen to-day as to whether
any <if the muiiicipidities have taken ad\antaj;c of the prohibitive provision of the
lii-eiise law, and the answer yiNcii was that thev had not. Can vou understand wh\.
and what the ditlicidl v w;
Tl
le mam (
litfl
cullv was that the law declares that ><2(Mi
must be put up iM'fore a \ote can be taken on the (|Uestion.
— Yi
1'
•"t.-iLM'.'. Ik) you mean that the people wishiiif;: that a vote taken must jiut up 8-UO .'
■s. .Moreover, if it is found that on the jiart of the two parties there has been
inisdcmeaiKiur coinmi
tied.
.some U
iifair act done, which il was alle-icd could b.
(I, balloting; would not be allowed unless anotliersum <if money was paid in by the
party who entered the jirot est. We all know that the temperance people are alxive
contact with it, onlv
oin oui
ess we put up certain money.
You see the
doini; dirty work, and we all know that the liipior traftic, fr
does dirty work ; but evi'ii if we could show that the li(|Uor men ha<l done that work.
We would nfil be allowed to do .so uiil
dilliculty I am endeavouriiif; to present.
.■{.")-_'l'(I. Have you any doubt about the practicability of ])rohibitioii in this country,
a s])arsely settled country, if it were eiiiicted by the Dominion (ioverment? T do iini
know, ^ly travelling in the country has ijeen too small to make me actpiainted with
tile difVereiit parts of il : but I have il on the authority of tho.se who know and win
able to say and who have go
easily enforced.
Itr.v. .Ions K. Wia.sii.
ill
th
itrv, that a iirohibitorv law could
* 1 «■
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I'SSiU'V.
,ml'
eiillv
icrmU.
(I r
hctlifi
t' the
wliy.
it !?-'•"
C'L'l. hii you tliiiik it iiilv i>;iltlt' in Iium' a |)lcliiscitc on this i|iii'>!iiiii (nv fliis part
it t III- cullllt I'V
uorii
iiid uuf iiwii nifiiilici', Ml'. <i. S. |)a\i(l
ii\f till
I ""I
il.' 1
IIS
tliiit lie would vote in t'lisoiir ot' a plfliisriti", iiistt'iitl of a liijUor law. I was incM-nti
uIk-II Ih- IIKKIc till' Stiltl'llll'ht.
'M')'2'22. hill 111' M»ti' tliat way in tin- Li'i;i>lat iiri' .' I do not know.
.■'i"iL'2-'t. Wa.s the i|Ui'stioii of a plfWisfiti- lii'oii^dit lioforr tin- Loral Li'i,'islati\i'
A--M'iiil)ly / I do not tliink so.
//// Jiu/i/r Ml' hiiiiiilil :
■■>">1.''J k You liavi' spoki'ii altout tin- fraininn of this law. ho you think it was
tV.-iiiird in till- inti'ii'sts of tlit> liipior pi'iiplr .' Vrs.
■'!"il'll"i. I>y whom was tlir law riiacted I I'.y tlir l.i»;;,'islatiM' Asscmhly.
• "i">--Mi. How is the A.s.senibly ronstituted '/ -By thi- people's I'epreseiitatives.
;)"il."_*7. Then the peo])le, sjieakiiif; tlirouffh their i-epresi'iitiitises. enai'ted that l.iw .*
—Yds. Soiiietiiiies tin- represi'iitatives niisri'presi'nt their coiistit iieiieies.
.'i."fjL',s. Is it not rather to he supposed that the re]iresentatiM's are pi'ett\ careful
III u'iiu.iciii;^ the opinions of the people wiioiii 1 1 ley represent ,' Some of them take eare to
<|o that.
•"I'l^l.".*. ho you think that others do not? — Yes.
• >•">:.'•■!() 1. ho you think that those who do not \oted for t his law .' I would not siiy
llial.
.'l.'iL'.'ll'. .Still there is a chaise that Wii^ ado|ited hy IJie iii'i,'islati\i' .Vssemhly
|iro\idinj; that if peojile want to incur the e.xjieiise of havin<^ a \i)te of <iiat kind taken,
s'.'tio shiiU he raised and deposited for the purpose/ Yes.
.).")•_'.'!.■). What other .system woulil you Iijim' adopted ( Local option.
• 'lo'J.'U. How Wdidd you have the expense met .' Take it out of the funds of the
iiiuiiici|iality, and let e\ery man pay his projiortion.
; !.")!.' .'5."). Take a municipality that contains L'UD ratepayers. (>f these, |(tl propose local
option ami want it and the other W oppo.se it. Would Voii put those ilil to the e.'vpense
iif haviuj,' that Mite taken on a (|uestioii to which they were op|iosed '. Yes: just in the
•-aiiic way as in our Local Assemhly if there was a majority of only one aiiaiiist i he
tiuvcrnment that would he sutHcieiit to cause a dissolution of the House and an appeal
111 the |ieople, and the Territories would ha\c to |iay the e.xpense.
•"i.j2;i(i. Take this (juestion from another point of view. Y'ou ha\i! a muiiici]ialily
ill which the |ieo])le ask for this vote, and when the vote is taken it is found that out of
the 'jot) voters 1(X) are a<;.'iinst local option and only •")() in favour of it. Those ."iD ha\e
I'iiiiscd a large e.xpense to the community. Should they not hear t hat expense iheiiisehes,
instead of all the ratepayeis lii'ing called upon to pay '. \ wiaild hardly fa\ our a \ote lieim^
taken if there was that proportion aifainst it.
"i."ij.")7. There must he some means of asceitainiii;; imMic opinion. jtut you wcuild
'111 a \.iy with the de]iosit of .■*L'(J() [ ^'c.s.
jT^
!?-J00 .'
IS lieeli
ould 1"
hy the
ahovc
it, only
wink.
see the
'ouutiy.
do liiil
\f(\ with
rho arc
1 l,c
liUll
.\. r.OWHX PKliUY, Superiiilemleiit of the Nnith-wcsl .Mounteil police, oil being
'Inly sworn, ilt'iiosi'd as follows : —
]iy Judyii McDoiud'l :
:i.'i2:lS. What is the jurisdiction of the Mounted Police '. The Territories are di\ idecl
iiiiii ili\isions. and each district is under a Superintendent, who has charge of the police
Miitioiied at that particular place.
•'■Ol'.'iil. What i.s your jurisdiction at present ! — The portion of the Territories sur-
iiiuiidin!.' here.
•■i5l' JO. Where were you liefore you came here ! — At Prince Alhert and several other
I'l.lrcs.
i"iL'll. J hid you any experience oi the prohiliitory law in the North-west Tei-ri-
tiiriis ?--Yo.s.
269
W.s'^ I
[]'<■■
M ;'
LiqiU)!' 'riattir — NorHi-wost Territories.
'■S'l'lVl. Hi>w l<»nji lui\t' you Immmi in tlit* Territ<»i-ies .' 'IVn vf/irs.
.("(L'l.'f. NN'iis tlie pniliiWitorv liiw in force wlu-ri y<»ii fiini«' lnMe ! It whs.
;{")•_' n. How did it work? In the eiirly days it seunietl very effective ; thiit was
Itelore the intiixluction of iiiilwiiys. The niilwnys incieiised \eFy nnich the tiuilities of
l>ringin^ in lli|uoi°.
.■{"»'Jt"). It wus not dirticidt to enforce the law in those days, I suppose '. No.
.■<5l'4(). \V(i« there any 8niug«;Hnj{ ffoini; on f There wiis sniuuglinn or iittenipted
sniug^lin};, of course.
.■{")247. Tell us in what kind of packaj^es the li(|Uor was Inought in .' N'erv often
in ke;.'s and I)arrel8. The 8aine care was not Uiken In't'ore the railways came in. lu'cause
the sinug;{lers came across the country and were UKtre easily cauirht ; Imt when the rail
ways were huilt lii|U(»r was smuggled in with other giMMJs.
.■{'(•J4H. \\'a,s it brought over the Iniundary \ \'es.
;{.'»24!). Have you l)een at Kort MaclecxI T-f have.
;{r)"J.")0. We understand that in that part of tiie country a large amount of sniugglinu
was cariitnl on from tlie Uiuted States? No doubt.
W'Yl'A. Do you know anything of the character of the li<|Uor that was brought in
from tiie I'nited States?— 1 have always lu^ard that it was v<^ry bad "fortv rot! "
W'yl'rl. We are told that under the permit sy.stem attempts were made occa.sionallv
to avoid the law by using permits a second time f — No doubt that was uttemjited.
:{.")•_*.");?. And also the stubs were used '.' Yes.
'jr)2o4. What was the law in regard to taking up the stub .' It wa.s never re<|uire(l.
When a man made application for another |)ermit he pinne<l the stub to his applitu
tion, .showing that he had had a permit before. ( >f course it was a fraud if a man got
liquor in the country, otherwise than by permit, or he retained the old permit so that
he could show it to the police to cover any lii|uor that he had on hand. I'nder thr
extraordinary jMjwers the police had, we could search on mere suspicion. Tf we fointd
li(|Uor and the man showed u permit, the jiolice could not go Iteyond making in<|uiries :
there was a certain (|uantity of licjuor there, and tlu^re was a permit covering it. It
might have been brought in time and time again and the ((uantity might have been
resold, but so long as the man had a permit covering the licjuur in his jKJSsession, it wa^
practically free from seizure.
WWl'^^). So seizures were in this way avoided? Yes: but this was onlv done l)\
people who wantetl to break the law and sell alcohol.
:jr)L'r)(l. ^Ve have been told that people would bring liquor in under permit and their
friends would then assemble, and that there would be a Ijout of hard drinking. Have
you seen anything of that kind? There has been the charge made that this svstem led
to over-indulgence at particular times? — N<t doubt that was the ca.se. If men who li&il
l)een accustomed to use li(|Uor had had none for a long time, and then obtained a quan
titv, the result wiis likely to be what has been iiulicated.
'•\'yl"i . l)id you know of the use of pain-killer and eau de Cologne in the Ten i
tories ? - Yes ; I have known cases where men have taken eau de Cologne ami have even
taken pain-killer. That was not general, however: only men who were hard drinker-^
would use such compounds.
.■{52">S. Did you find yourself in a position to stojt the giving or sale of liipior in
liulians when the permit system was in force? Our hands were strengthened in t'lat
respect by the permit system.
.'{iJ"J5y. It has l)een stated thit you reported that it was easier to keep liquor frmii
the Indians uiuler the ])resent system than it was under licen.se?— That was before tin'
license law came in. 1 was speaking of the liquor law as it existed then. I was pru-
phes\-ing what the result would Ije if the law were changed.
'.\Wl'^%i. Had you any experience with the license system in regard to Indiiin^
obtaining liciuor ? — It is very difficult to accurately .judge between the permit .system
and license. The license system only came into force on 1st May, and I have not been
able to get the facts on which to base a judgment. I am not prepared to give a detiniti-
answer as between the two .systems at the present time : I need more facts and nimv
opportunities to form an opinion on tliat subject.
A. BowKX Pkkky.
270
57 Victoria.
Sessional Pai)eis (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ie iM't'ii
, it Wil-
li )iif'
(I thfir
(liHir 1'
.'l.jJIiO. 'I'll*' |H)lii'c, I lii'lifXf, liud tilt' I'iijlit to visit liou^rs iiml sfiirrli ImuHf.s iintl
iPciNdiis .' Oiii- i'i>{lits wt'i'i' vt'i'y fxtfiisivc uii<i*T tin- old sy^'"'"'- ^Vc Inul the fi^lit to
-carcli ))ii iiu're siis|ii<'iun. If tlif sfiii'fli ii|i|ili(>il tu a il\s<-iliiiu limist' it «ii.s iifc«'.sHiirv
that iiii iithcei' Hhiiiild ;;iv(* tlu' mdiT ; it' not, ii ('i>ii>ital>ii' uii mrr*- Mispirinii rouUI scai'fh
tiii<>U){h Ihf |iliifc.
.■<")'_Mil. Hiivc yoii yoiirselt'. in thf WiHchiirj,"' '>t' yntif dutifs. ever ciinjjht simmjflj'iit !
N<it iMTsiiiudly, l)ut my iiiiMi, lu-tiii^ iiiKh'r my dit'cct iii-<h'is. liaNt; tr<-<|iifiitlv cau^rlit
them ; and I liiivi' tVi'i|U<'iitly tried tlit-m.
■ i'fjtlli. \\'«'re they stfiiiixefs !- Nut tu the iiei}{hlHiui-hiHMi ; they were |ieii|)h- nt' liie
plare.
.")."»•_'().'(. |>id you notice the effeet of the \u\\ (hiriiij; tlie ronsliuction periiKl of liie
lailwiiy ; It wiiH more iMMielicial during the construetion [lei'liKJ.
't.*»l'()4. There was a larj^e iMwiy of men em|iioy«><l, I siijipose / From t,UU(J to .">.U00
men were at norlc oti the Caniuiian Pacitir Hailway.
.'I'fJt)."!. I notice in your report of ISHS, to which I did not refei' hefore. you spoke
of the extraordinary |M»wers of tlie Mounted I'oUce, t lie power of search, and then you
.said th(»se powers Inul no i-tfect where jiermits were held. Can you explain whv ; was
that owin;; to tlie stuhs '! Yes.
.■i.")2t><). You have, 1 supjM)S)', fre<|uently made searches and have found liquor, liiit
viiu could Mot do anythiii;; l)ecause |)ermits would Im- pr<Kluced / ^'es.
.■t.*)'_'t)7. You have also said that the intrcKluction of the four per i-eiil heer made
Miiir work difticult and tryiiiji;, hei^ause it was almost im|M)ssil)le to determine the amount
of alcohol in it. Have you observed whether it did work in that wiiy ; It did to a
certain extent. I know at one time, in the early days when peimits were not so
fi'ei|iieiit, that if a man was seen drunk, it w'a.s an indication that there wits liipior
aliout. Later, however, there were plenty of permits in the country, and if we found ji
man drunk, it mi;;ht lie four jier cent lieer that nuwle him so, or it mi<;lit ha\e l»een
>iiiui,'j,ded litjuor.
:l.")2ftfl. 'This ^ave you no clue durinj; later years so as to eiiahle you to exercise the
liiw ! It simply multiplie<l the ditliculties.
.■i.'d'tJO. Do you think the permit system was the weakness of prohiliition .' It was
:i icjjulation system ; it svas personal license instead of "{eneral license.
;{.")270. Have you observed whether the record of oti'eiices has, since the ad\ciit of
liie licens(> system, increasetl or diminished ? It is too early to make a comparison.
.■i.")27l. in I8f<lt, in your report, at pa;;e 77, you make this stateiiiont :
"Tiie puniiit Hyxtclii at )iruaeiit fails tti ritgiilatv the iisi' of hiloxiciitiii^ lii|ii<ir aininif^st n certiilu
iluss. IVrinitH nri' iiiniiiiially issued for ilomu.stic ii.se (inly, liiit toci often tuo (ilitaiiu'il with tlic sole
<il>i('i't of .selling tilt' lii|iiiir tliiis iiiiportL'il."
Ilii- the experience of latei- years but continued your experience of that time ? — I do
imi iliiiik 1 was wron;; in the statement made.
:i.")*_'7l.'. l)o you believe, from your residence in the Territories and your observation.
tii:ii it would lie possible to fairly well enforce jj;eiieral prohibition, if a pi-oliibitory law
were enacted and appliance.s created for its enforcement.' It would depend entirely
Mpnii the moral support >,'iven by the people of the country.
■'t.")27."{. Have you had any means of ascertainiiii; the public seMtiiiienl on this
i|Ui'stion ? — No; I am not prepared to ,iti\e an opinion about that.
• >-''i'J74. If they were in favour of it, could such a measure lie enforced ?- — If the
I'lniije were in favour of prohibition, it would be enforced ; it could be, as well as any
"tlii'i- law. I believe such a law could not be eiiforcefl if the public were not in favour
lit' it or in sympathy with it. It simply comes back to the streiij^th of public o|iinioii.
•"i.''r_'7-'"). I presume from what youha\e reported, as well u\ the statements you ha\c
iiiiule to-day, that you believe if ;;eneral prohibition was enforced by the will of the
|ii'i)lile, fairly well ent'orcetl, the eflfects would Ik- <.;o(m1 in the main : that if the will of the
ln"i(|ile were expressed on a pidhibitory etuictment and it were well enforced, the effect
nil ilie moral and material interests of the country would be <i[ood ? — I think I will i;i\e
" Vt ^ " to that question.
271
I 1
Liciuor Tnillic — Noilh-we.sr Teiritoiies.
f .!
/>')/ .liithji Me UiHiitlil :
;5."i-7'>. ^'|'U iiri- iiwiii'f llml the lici'iisi- law I'lmtiiiiis |ii'ii|iiliiiiir\ cliuiscs .' It i|.ii'>.
;i'>-77. Iliivc yoii t'wv li\i'(l ill Oiitmin .' I wiis Inirii iiml Iimmi^jIiI u|> tlini'.
;l.'»i.'7i^. Was ilicrc a |ii'iiliil)itiii'y law in f'ni'ct' llirrr '. Nn, I think nut.
.'ir)lJ7l>. Takiiiji wliat ynii know ut' |uil(lif t'cciinj;. du y<>ii imt tind dial tlitTf is a
u'l't-attT sym|>alliy with tin- |iriiliil)itiiiy clauses nt' the iiri'iisc law ,' I iliink so. I think
an u|ii'i!.'lit saloon man would not sell to drunkaids.
.H.'H'SO. Or on Sundays ( No.
M.'iL'.'^i, 'I'akin;; the couiiti'y as a wholf, sii|i|iosi' you toiind that in the .Mai'i*iiii>'
f'roviiii't'M then' was a v«m'v Htronj^ si'iitiiiit'iit in t'avouf of proliihitioii, |() to I, the
I'rovince of (^iH'licc was ayaiii.sl it, (>iitafio diNidrd, a stron;,' fct'lin;,' in fa\oui- of it. in
Manitoha, and Iti'itish ( 'oliinihia Id to I a;;aiiisl it, would you ho|it' to he alilc to eiifoi
a |ii'oliiliilioii law in Itiitish (7oluiiiliia ,' No.
.'iriL'Mi'. Hut if tlu'i») was suUioieiil wcij^lit of |(uliiif opinion in favour of such a law,
you Iti'lievc it could 1m' cnfoirjid ?- Any law can lie cnfurct'd under Hueli conditions,
; I. "»•_', ><.■(, |>o you think there is a diM'erent feelin;; in regard to this law I lijin in re;jarci
to iiny other law f Yes ; hecause to take lic|uoi' is not a crime in itself, hut it would
lie made -<o liy law. 'i'hat would make all the dill'ereiice.
;!.")•_','< I. Take the murders committed: have those who ha\e coiimiitted murdci-
lieeii |)unished hy tho force of |)ul)lic iipiiiion ? We havctouiy to y;o across the line lii
M'c that.
:l"ijs."). ho you not fiiKl lliat when |iul)lic sentiment is si ronj;, and there ,i Inw
th;it is not enforce<i, the people make a law for t hemselses, .iiid are jiiepared i Mini^li
the otleuders ,' Yes.
.'i.'ii'SI), Is that not 1 )ec!i use t here is -.ncli a weii;lii of pul)lii' opinion ;n,'aiiisi tlicii
oll'eiices .' Yes.
.1 < l| I N I'l. SI HH.Md > of Keyiiia, nieichanl ,011 lieing duly sworn, deposed .is follii\\ -
Hy ,hid[i>'. McDiHinhl :
.■>ol'S7. Have you lielil any position in connection \\ilh piihlic ,iHaifs ? No.
.'t.'i'JS.'^. In what line of mercantile laisiness are you eiii;ai,'ed ,' fn.se\eral. ram
Manager of the Western .Millinj,' Com)iany.
.■{.">L'S!I. How lonj; have you lived in the Territories? — Ten yeiirs.
.■>.") l.'!l( I. How lonj; ha\e you lived in l!ej;ina .' .\ll the t ime, e\ce|it when I w;i-
1 1 ,i\ c'llinj;.
.'i.")"_".t 1 . Where have you Ir.ivelled? All oxer; in .M.initoha and t he Territories aiii I
Ivist .
;i ■")■_".•'_'. From where did you come originally.' Fifty miles from Toronto, in 1 lie
County of York.
;!.")L".l.'i. What is your opinion of the jirohiliitory system in the .North-west Tei i i
toiies .' So far as I know, I do not think it was successful.
•'i.IlMH. ('i)uld li(|Uor h;; ol)tuined for heveraj^e purposes? Yes.
'■S'ylS)'.\. I'rom what you have seen, do you think a jjeneral jirohihitory law could li.'
eliectually enforced over the country as a wliole .' No.
.■5r)ii!)('). In casi^ of the enactineiit (if 11 ;;eneral proliiliitory l.-iw, doyou think it wnuM
be rij;lit that compensation should he made to l)rew<'rs and ilistillers for their loss 't
plant? — .Most decidedly I do.
.■5r)i'07. Take the proliihittirv law as it was, and the licenst' law as it is, have you
noticed any ditlerence in the condition of artairs in the comnuinity .' - J know very litii'!
about it so far as that is concerned, but f do not notice^ any difl'erence. f havi! seen .1
great deal more drinking under license than before ; but I very seldom go (jut at nighr,
or go into the iiotels. ^
A. liowE.v Pehuy.
272
TfT!^
'li
67 Victoria.
il Itiw
iiiini>li
Sessional Papern (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I I
.■(."ilJKS. Ill till- iiiiirMf lit' yiiiii' li'iixi^ls tlii'iiu;;li tliK 'riTriliii'ii-s, liiiM- ymi t'ciiiiiil llio
|«'((|ii<' iiiiikiii'4 iisf I tf III I III II' fill' lic\fraj{t' |iiir|iiist'H ! Very iinicli xi< sjM'ciiilly in MiiiitliiTii
Miiiiitoliii iiiid iinii' Miii'l I anil Li'tliliriil;;i'.
.S.'rJ'.t'.t. XN'liui \Mis ihc cluiraiiiT lit' tlir lii|iiiir ! N'rry Imii.
.■|."i:t()(t. \\\' liiiM' lii'i'ii t.iilil lli.it. till- |ii'i>|ili' tiscil |iitiii killiT ami I'liii ill' Ciilii^iii-.
hill you kiiiiw lit' siii-ii iirtii-li's iii'in;; iiscil .' I kiuiw vi'ry lillli'aliDut tlicin. I Iiiim- situ
|iaiii killiT usod hi'mm'iiI tiiiirs, iiiiil I havf known mu' ciimi' of a man ili'inkini; ml ink t'or
till- uli'oliiil in it.
% /.'.■(•. /)/. M,l.r„d:
.'l.'i.'lt)!, hill vnii oMT know aiiv <Hir wlio svoiilil willin^flv ilriiik |iaiii killer oi' It'll
ink '. No.
'.\'y'M)'l. |)o you r(';.'aiil tiiat a.s ii drink to wliich nii'ii would ri'>ort it" tiny liad llir
lilii'ily to u.si" otlirr stiiiiulaiils, or only it' t't'i'liny llial tliey iiui-.i lia\i' soinrtliini,' to i;ra-
lit'y a di'sirn wliicli tlii-y could not ri-si.st : and do you not think thai it would mdv li'
till' hardi'iii'd drinkrrs who would ri'sorl to sui'li liijuid- ' 'I'lii' \\\nv who drank red ink
was only iJ.'i years old, hut I do not know how Imiy lu' had dnmk.
.'ir).''i(l.'!. ^'(111 ha\f .said that you aii' a iiii-rrhant and iiianai;i'r of the Western M illii;^
Co.' Yes.
'.\'i'My.\ti What lines of liusiness does the eoiii|ian\ I ■.•Illy on .' They lia\e a mill.
They hiiy ^'laiii, and liiey !i;!'.e a, wholcsalu liijuor estaiiliMhiiieiit in l{e;iina.
.filHij.; ^f^|)( »NAIil>. The inoeei'diims and the sittiii:;s of the {'oininisNJoii will
lie adjourned until l"'iiday iiiorniiii; at Ml n'eloek. The reason for t he ailjouriiiuent is to
eiuihle the ('oiniuisaioi.ers tu ;;o to I'riiice Alhert without delay, and to take ad\iinta;;e of
the train a iiij^t'iiieiils hy whieh they will lie altle to return on Fi'iday.
Tliu ('onunissioii udjourned.
I
ollow-
ll. I Xl'l
ell I w.i~
uries iiii'l
ill iii.
I'sl Tel ! 1
eould '"■
k it wmil'l
ir loss "I
have y.'U
k-ery liii>
(• seen :i
I at iii-'''
21_18+*
273
!■ Ill*
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
PHINCK ALHKKT. N.W.T., \<.vpmh.-r .i, ISO'J.
Tlif Koviil Cdiiunissiun mi the Li(|Uur Trattif met here tliis day.
/'rtseut :
•It iHiK McDowMi. Kkv. Dh. MrLKOD.
Ji iicK MrDOXALD, in oiieniiij; tlic procecdiiijifs, said: The Coiiiinissioiiers will at
once jifDi't-ed t<> take evidence in aceoi-danee with the terms ot' Hei- Majesty's commission,
t'olliiwin;; the practie;' adopted in other places (tf hearing utHcials Hi'st, and afterwards
otlier witnesses.
SAMUKL.IAMKS DONALDSON, Mayor of Prince Albert, on hein-; duly sworn,
depo.sed as follows ; —
Hi/ Jiii/i/r MrDimii/i/ :
;>"!304. What is your business or occupation .' I am a livt^ry stahle keeper.
;}"),•<(}."). How loiitt have you resided in Prince AUiert '. 1 have been here since IS87
on ai.d oH'.
35.'{0(>. Do you come here fi'om one of the otherproviucest -I came herefrom Ontario.
So.'Wy. From what pai't of Ontario .' -l came from CJarletoti Place, near Ottawa.
:{.").'{0i'^. That is in the County of Lanark, I believe ', — Yes.
.'i.-i.'W.t. During your residence in the North-west Territories, have y(ju been in
Prince Albert all the time f -No ; I have been at C^u'Appelle, Pattleford and Port Pelly,
.■<r)."UO. Have you resided at these jilaces! — I put in a year at each of the places.
.■i"):ill. When you first came herein I87il, what system was in force .so far as re
gards t\\o li(pior ti-atUc .' -The permit .system.
■'i")."?!'-*. 'I'h.it was till.' system in force in the Territories until a \erv recent period '.
—Yes.
.■{o.'ijil. The permits, we understand, were obtained from the Lieutenant-tio\crnorl
Y'es.
.■t.");ll;i('. Takirii; your (experience, has there been during the time you lur e known
the Tei'ritories, any change in the social customs of the people with respect to the us(! ot
into.xicating liipiors .' There was a time when the]ierniit system was very judiciously
handled, and there was not a very great wish for alcoholic liipiors in the Territories; but
later on, there was, aiui wiien they had it, they abused it.
H5;U4. You mean that later on under the permit system more lii|Uor was brouglii
in ? -Yes.
.SoIU'i. Duiing the time of tlie permit system, was liquor smuggled in ? Yes.
.'i.lltlti. In V hat shape? Smuggleil in in various ways, some of course, brought in
under permit.
.■<-j."M7. Do you mean under permits that were unlawfully used I -Yes.
:{").'51K. The pe.iuits having become -.'xhausted ?- Not exhausted enough that the
parties would not take their chances, and ask the i>ieutenant-<iOvernoi- for permit'-
■mder .some one else's name, anil the liipior would conu' totheexpress othce, and tlie man
would go there and get it. I iiave known such cases.
S.XMUEI. .IaMES I>0N.\M)H()\,
274
I ''I'
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
1SS7
lis rt"
HM'iod '.
•iiiir I
known
US(i ot
cidusly
es; liut
lit til"
l)t»riiiii--
lie niiin
.'?r).'il9. Fii svluit (ithef ways was it hrouj];ht in ?--Piirtit's smu^tf^linji li<|Uiir at t!i:it
tinit' -.vnuid take teams and j;<> down to lirandon or Portage la Pt iifie, and hrini; lii^uor
aiToss the country, and run the chance of getting it in.
.'Sri.'ViO. Without having the pi'etence of a permit f f ha I heen at (^u'ApjH'lle
when a man overtook me with Hve ten gallon kegs of alcohol.
:?.").'il.M. Did you find in those days that the ii(iuor snniggled ,'u was generally sjiirit.s,
oi- was it ale?--(ienerally sj)irits, of the very strongest kin<I.
'M')'.V2'2. They endea\ oured to .secure the smallest hulk and th:' greatest strength, I
suppose? — Yes, and they would afterwards make a much larger ([uantity out <»f it.
Ii.'>."52.'?. Mad you any experience hei'e of ii(|uor lieing brought in in [)ackages of
sugar and Hour/ — I have heard of that, hut have never known of it myself.
•Sr).'?!!!. Have you lia(l any e.xperience in this country of other articles being used
instead of liquor. We have had evidence that in some sections pain-killer and eau de
Cologne were used? — Yes ; I have seen them used fre.ricntly.
'M)'\2^). Were they diluted or taken as tliey we?.' i-eceived ! \t all depended uixin
the condition of the man who was going to take it. whether he was on a heavy spree oi-
just beginning it.
:?5;i2G. We iiave been told that under the permit system when a man got a permit
for Hquor jind the liijuor arrived, he would call his friends t(^gether, and there would be
a period of exceedingly iuvivy drinking while the licjuor held out ? -Y'^es ; I have seen
that too.
•■i.").'5L'7. Did the .same state of things of which you have spoken exist at Prince
.Albert, Fort Pelly, and other pbices where you have been : were the conditions thi'cpugh-
oiU the districts similar? -Yes, about the same.
^{•j.'Jl'S. Then the condition did not depend on locality ? No.
.'io.SL'il. On 1st May last, a license system came into force, we undei-stand ? — Yes.
•Sa.S.'JO. Were you ^[ayor ot the municipality at that time?- -Yes.
.'{o.S.'il. What has been the working of the license law since it came into force ; has
it been advantageous or otherwise? — My o]>inion of the license .system at jiresent is, that
it is a little ahead of the permit .system, that is of tiie winding up time of the old per-
iiiil system.
.'i •").'{. '52. It has been suggested tliat one reason why there was an increa.se in the
nuiiil)er of permits granted, v. as the fact that such large (|uantities of li<|Uor were being
.snniggled from the (Inited States. a!id it svas thought expedient that those liiiuor's should
be brought in lawfully under a ,. 'rr,iit system'/ Kxactly.
.'i-'i."}."};}. Do you know whether the increase in the number <if permits issued dimin-
ished the ([uantity of liipi*!)' snniggled / - 1 believe it diminished snniggling as regards
nicn taking chances of bringini; liijuor across the country.
■'i.'i.'i.'U. r suppose you know nothing '.)f the state of things near the boundary line .'
1 have in) experience there.
il.").'!.'!."). Mow many licenses are there in Prince .Mberl ! One retail license.
.'!.").'!.'!(). That is an hotel 1 supjiose? — Y'es.
• io.'t.'tT. How iraiiy wholeside licenses have been gi'anted / — Two.
.">.-).'t.'iS. Ha\'e you considered the i|uestion, whether, in ca.se of tlie tuiaetment of a
|iriiliibitiiry law. a law ]>rohibitin;; the manufacture, impoi-tation and saleiif intoxicating
li'|iinis for beverage pur|)oses in the Doiuiniin, renuineiation should be made to l)rewers
inul distillers for loss of plant and niachinei'y / 1 have not gi\fn the matter any con-
siili'ration whatever; however, I imagines they should receive some rennin»;ration.
•'!."».■{;{!). Have you had any experience? of the working of a prohibitoi-y law anywhere
I'lse llnin in the North-west Territories ?-N'o.
•i'lHIO. Have you had any experience (jf :\ liigh license system? No.
% Ii<'r. Dr. Mr Lead:
•'•"I'iH. There have been three systems in the Territories: prohibition, with the
I'niy exercise of X\w peimit system ; then the four per cent l)eer system, and now the
lircnse system. From your observation, which do you think was the best of the three /
I think ! would as mow have the license system its any of them, fron) tin' way it is
^'nkinj; now.
' i
I
•Jl — I8i**
275
m
Liquor Trtittic — Nortli-west Tei ritories.
.'151}4:i. Did you find tli.it pi'uliihitiiiii, when pei-niits were issiu'd judiciously, did iiiiy
good ?- -Yes, I tliinlc it <lid, wiicn tiic permits were judiciuusly issued.
■>r);{4:i. ||ii\e you ol)served wlietlier tiie license system as it is iiere iiiis incieased or
diminished (h'ini<in^' .' I am inclined in l>elie\e that the license system is increHsin<; the
drinkinir in the rural districts.
•■5-")."ilt. Has it no etfect in the town
I tl
link not. wi
that
wav.
."i.'i.'il."). How manv licenses do vou siiv are is--ued altiniether ? < )ne ictail and two
wholesah
lir)."ii((. I )o vou know whether t
lere is an\
ill
icit sale ni tlie town
.None to mv
ki
iowlt'ily'(
I do not helieve there is anv whatever.
• iri^ll". 1 )() you know whether the licensees ol)ser\c the pi'o\isions of the li<ciise hiw
whether tliev sell after hours, and wlietliei' thev are closed durinu; le^jai hours on Sunday
— They close riyht on the hour, so far as 1 know.
;5").'US. Do tile wholesale establishments sell retail at al
is allowed to sell to his jjuests more or less on Sundavs.
An hotel-keeper
.■{");{ I'J. i)oes the law allow him to do so .' If he closed on Saturday iUi;lit, does it
How him to ojieii a,i{ain liefore Monday moi'iiinj,' ?-- F am never much round the hott;l
r was under the impression that ;L,'uests of the
on .^uni
lav, and therefore 1 do not k
hotel were allowed to huv on Sunday.
.■{.");{r)0. Then vou ilo not 1
know wli
ether the licensees sell after Ik
or not
N(j, 1 could not say.
ours anil on Sunday
.'i");}.")!. Did you notice a \i'ry great diflerence between the comlition of thiiif^swhen
permits were issued judiciously and when they were issued indiscriminately diirini,' later
years'/ Did you notice a diilerence in the i|Uantity of the liipior abroad and theaiiKaint
of drunkenness
Of
course, the population lias incr(
•a.sod. 'I'Ikm
V ninilit be more
drinkiiii,' noticed, but I do not think drinkinu' is more extensi\e than pre\ iously,
li(
It.") .'5 ">•_'. So it did not make much diilerence wluither few or many permits wen
anted!- it made a iliflerence no doubt, but there were more j pie to drink tin
[U.
tliat
was the dinerenci
tl(
:{.■). "J.");!. The returns show that there
was a ifieat increase in the (|u.iiititv of liipioi
permitted to come into the Territories between ISf^.') and ISDO. in 1 SS:{, al)out (),U(JO
jrallons were permitted and in ISUO, ir(:i,()0() y;allons. There could not ha\e been that
ratio of incicase in po|iuIatioii, about twenty-live times as many ? No.
'Mi'.\i}-i. Do yiai think the indiscriminate issue of pe-mits caused a lai\i,'e ini'rease of
drunkemie.ss / No doui)t there must ha\ e been some ii crease.
lioll,")"). You tiiink there was smugj;linii; .iioinii' on. Was there much of that during;
later years ?-^i do n((t think so much smu^'glin;. in later yeiir,s was carried on, for indi-
\iduals could then briiiu' it in by permit.
.Sr)."?.")!). The issuinj; of permits made it unnecessary to smuggle, I suppose /- Yes.
.'{"j.'iaT. How lon<f have you resided he
.'{.l.'i.'jiS. Have you noticed whether the di
injuriously or benetieially ? — Injuriously.
iss:
labitand the drink trade atl'ect l)usii
.'{a.S.j!). Take your own Ijusiness, that of keeping a livery stable. Sometimes ri
les.
get broken, I su])pose
.So.'ttJO. And horses get hurt
.■!5;5G1. Did you notice whether the tlriiik iiabit had anything to do with llios^-
occurrences ? — Y'^es, no doubt it had.
.■?r),'?0"2. To any coiisideral)le degree, or to any large percentage of ca.ses ?- -Yes, in a
very large numl)er.
lii/ Jui/i/e Mi'Doiiald :
."lolUi.'J. The man you met with a load of liijuor ; how far would he liaNc lodr.iu
it ] — From Brandon here, about 100 miles.
S.\.MUEL .).\Mi;s Donaldson.
.'76
i
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
IlnN. THOMAS IIOKACK MrCrillK, ..t' IVii...' AIImti, .fud,-.' of tlif Sii|.iviii.-
C'lmrt lit tlic Nurtli-Wfst Tcrritorii's, im lifiny dulv swuni, (l('|iii>t>(l ii-^ follows :
Ji// •hiilyi- Mr DdiKilil :
.■5-").">()4. Mow ionu' liii\<' \oii resided in the Tenilories .' Al)oul tliree veins ;iiid
alwdf.
.■$").'!(>."). Ha\t' you n-sided all that lime in I'liine All)eit .' ^'es.
•• .'!.").'!(■)(). Iiefol'e ('((niinu: liel'e, I l)elie\('yoU lived ill < )iitaiio ? ^'es, in Kingston.
',\7)'M\' . Tlieic was a lieense systesii in force tlieii' .' ^'es.
■So.'idS. Was tlie )iennit system in \ogiie wlien voii came lieie .' Yes.
.'in.'Ui'.). We undei'stand that the pfohihitoi-v law was fejiealed ii> .Ma\, and that a
license law fcjilaced it .' ^'es.
.'{"jliyO. Take tiie coinnninitx since vou came here, iiaxc \(iii noticed any chanL';e in
the social custom.s of the |ieo))le, of ate they aitoiit the same in rej^ai'd to tiie use of
into.xicatini^' lie\ei'ai;-es ? -While 1 cannot say I ha\e noticed \ eiy much chanj,'o heic,
theic has heeii a little, of i-ouise. \\'hen the license law came into force there was a
tem|itation to try thoir new prisilejfe at that time, hut I do not think it kept up.
;{-''i.'m 1. 1 >o you tind this a law al)i(lin<j; and soher community .' \'ei\' much ,so.
.■{.")•' i 7 1.'. I )o you think it compares very favoinahly with other communities? [
think .so.
.'{•"i.ST.'i. 1 understand that t his is an old estahlished place.' It dates hack fifteen
years prohalily.
•■5").'t74. The sett lenient was in existence hefore that, under the old Hudson Bay
Company, I heliexc? 1 am not aware that the Hudson liay Company had any traders
iierc previous to Hfteen yeai-s ajfo.
.").").■ i 7 •">. liad you any e.Kpeiieiu-e of the working of the permit system! Yes;
almost the same experience. althoui;h perhaps not so familiar with thi' system, as tiie last
witness. 1 corn (borate what he has said about permits Ijeiiii; ajiplied for in the names
of jiersoiis who ncN or obtained them. (>f course, I only know this by hearsay, but it is
a matter of common report that se\eral persons in town were in the lialiit of sendiin,' to
the Ijieutenantt !o\crrior for permits in the name of certain individuals. In the early
history oi' the country, when the settlers were few and more easily known by the Lieii-
leniint-(>o\»'rnor or those about him, the ]permil .system was exercised wisely and dis-
cretion could be used in issuini;- permits. .Vs the population increased .■ind more
stran<;er.s came into the country, persons of whom the Lieutenant-(!overnor knew
nothiii<,f, and of whom the persons about him kni'w nothing:, the information obtained
Would not alwa\s be accurate, and frei|ueiitly. no doubt, permits were niven to those
who were really dealers in li(|Uor, (hat is, selling:- contrary to law, because there was no
power to sell under the permit system. Persons, no doubt, ;,'ot permits in their own
names and sold the li(|uor. I know of two permits beiiii;' apjilied for by )iersons whose
]irincipal business it was to sell li(|uor. and foi a loiiij time I did not know liow they
not it.
.■(■"'i.'i7ti. Would the ii(|Uor be sold openly at the i)ar, oii|uielly .' There was i pen
sale in this town. In one place there was ojien sale, but it never became what \(iu
would I'all open sale in Prince .Vlbert that 1 am aware of. There was a yood deal sold,
however, I believe, before the license svstem cami' into force.
,"i."i.'l77. Then we iMiderstand. that owinf; to some decision i;i\cn it was held that,
tliough the individual in who.se favour the permit was ;;-raiited bought the lii|Uor. yet if
it Were afterwards found to be in the possession of .'tnother party, it was covered l)y
permit .' 'N'es, tiiat \va,s tiie decision of .luflj;e Houleati. Tliat di'cisioii was tfiveii accord-
iiiu to the strict wordini; of the section, which was afterwards amended.
.'i.').'t7i*'. Do you think that uniler the present system piivate individuals calle<l
ioi,'etlier a few friends when the licpior arrived, and there was a bout of excessive
driiikinj;/ 1 believe there are soine j^rouiids for tliat report. It has been stated, per-
haps a.s a joke, but with .some truth in it, tiiat as litpior byjiermits came in l)y sleii;h oi'
by express, for it was not safe to send it by freiu'ht, that a mans friends were always
■ ihout at the time of its arrival, and it apjteared to be alvvavs known who vvas the
277
Hi' :
ii'
ItH;
It' I 'i
\i if
m
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
fortunate ivcipiciit of tlie li(|iu>r. I tli> not know how true tliat is. I tliink, liowever,
there is soir.e trutli in the stiiteinent that a man invited his fi-ieiuls, or they invitetl
tlieniselve.s, and they would (hink till tlie lii|Uor was eonsunied. The permit usually
covered two ^'(iHons.
;ir).'{7i). Did the permit distinj,'uish the kind of licpior ? -It always distinguished it.
There was more hi'andy Wrought in than anything else, except hy the better class, who
wanted wine : it was usually brandy or alcohol, on which, of course, the freight was
less : l)randy was .")0 cents a gallon, and of course it was desirable to get the strongest
kind of li(|uor. ^
.SoUSO. Do you know whether adultei'ation was comjilained of incases where li(|Uor
was sold / I ha\e reason to believe that the litpior sold was adulterated, from the eil'ect
it luul on persons who drank it ; of course, I refer to the after eft'ects.
.■<r).'381. You mean, I suppose, that it made them stupid and almost paralyzed them ?
- Yes.
.■{r)38"J. We have heard of cases of that kind in the other pi'ovinces ? Yes.
.■{.■>.'{8;$. iJo you know anything of the state of things on the s»>uthern boundary? — No.
.■t.").'{84. Have you consiclered the <|uestion of granting remuneration to brewers and
distillei's for their loss of plant, in ease of the enactment of a general prohibitory law '!
That (luestion is of mort; importance in other jiarts of the country than in the Tei'ri-
tories, for the reason that the law had |irohil)ite(l a license being given to conduct manu-
facturing here. I'ntil last May there was no right to establish a brewery or distilleiy
in the Territories. There was what were called lioji-breweries ; there are one or two
liere. but they are not of much account.
.■(.538."). What kind of beer was pi'oduced ? It was not very go<)d : it was called hop
beer, and probably contained two oi' three per ctMit of alcohol.
.■5.").'J8(i. tSo did the four per cent ? — No. that was always imported. Hoji beer is a
very weak product. As an abstract proposition, I think that where the law enacts that
a business should be wip(>d out, jtroviding it is a lawful business at the time, the
people engaged in it have some claim to be renumerated, especially in view of a sudden
change in the law which has thrown that man's pi'operty and himself out of a sphere of
usefulness for the time being.
."5.5387. Do you think in such a case that compen.sation should be made for the
plant and machinery that would neciessarily be reufiei-ed useless? -I do not think that I
am able to express an o|)inion on that subject. I think that a very strong argument
might Ije put for-ward iir behalf of such a change being made : but, ther-e ar'e ver-ystr'ong
reasons to l)e ur'g»'d against it on the other side.
.3r)388. As a jurist arrd as one who has had long exper'ience in law, w hat, in your' judg-
ment, is th(^ effect on the coii-science of a community of having a law on the statute-book
which is tlagnintly and jH'rvsistontly violated? — My experience has been irror'e outside of
the Territories than here in this r'egar-d. Of cour'se, ther-e is nothing here to contr-adict
my impression, stated elsewhere : it is, that wher-e ther'e is a law that is notenfor'ced the
people get inttt the habit of bi'caking that law, and the\- have a tendency to br-eak other
laws, particularly wiih regai-d to truth in th(! witness box.
35389. .Speaking of that point, have you had any expei'ience in regar'd to the mat-
ter' of evidence? Ver'v little, F have had only four or five cases.
.■{r);Ji)0. It has been stated that in a gener-al pr'ohibitor'y law. rrror-e than any other-
law. piM'jur-y exists in the courts wherr atterrrpts ar'e made to tMrfor'ce it. It is said the
lack of merrrory in r'cgar-d to tirrre, place arrd circirrrrstances is such that people cannot
come to any other corrclusion tlrarr that irrterrtiorr.il perjur'v is eorrrrrritted by wittresses /
— -1 think iiry irrrj)i'ession her-e, so far- as it has gorre and lirrrited to a few cases, and my
expei'ience in prosecuting cases irr Ontar'io was of a like cirai'acter, is that in the pi'osecu-
tion of liquoi' ca-ses you never can r'ely on orre witrress in a huiulre<l telling the truth, if
they are witrresses for the pr'osecution.
3.5391. Have you had any experience in < )irtar'io in conductiirg prosecutions irr con
nectioii with a ])r(ihibitory law? — Not with a pi'ohibitoiv law.
3.5392. Was the Scott Act iir force in Kr-orrlerrac before you left Kingston's — I
think it was in the county, not in the city. It was defeated in the city, although 1
tliink it was carried after a while.
Hon. Thomas Hoh.\ck McCtuihk.
iV:
m
57 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;5r);{0.'{. Do you know iiiiytliiiij,' of tlif workiiiL,' of it? I cjiniiot suy imicli iilxnit
tliiit, l)ecaiis(' it wds not loii;,' in forcf Itefort- it was rt'|it'al<'il.
.'<">,■{',) I. Kin;;ston l>eiii.i; so ncai'. of coiiiv**'. |it'o|ilt' could ifct lii|iiiir .' Tlic coniintMit
I would make on that point is, that in the county it did not ;;et a fair rhani'i' tooiitrate,
hi'causc jHjoplc could huy five yallonsof lii|uoi' in the city, of men coulil cai-ry it hontcin
their skins.
;5r)l{ltr). Are there any suj{j,'estions you could make to the Connni>sion in rcirard to
tiic anienduKMit of *he law at jiresent in force here or elsewhere in i-ei,'ard to this ipies
tion as a wh(»lef N'). I may say that from what experience I have had, I am in favour
of a license law. While I should he very ^lad to have ahsolwte prohihition, if such a
law could he enforced, my im)>ressions are that it would lie incapahle of (Miforcement.
This keen appetite cannot he contr'olled. And in my view the )iresent system is a
\pry .i,oo(l one. It has lieen culled fi'oni the experience of prohihitory and other laws,
and in fact has heen made l>v the Lef^i.slature and hy the ijcntleinen who drafted it as
I'rticif^nt as jjossihle. Incich'ntall}' I found .some advantaf;e in the system the other day.
.\ jUM'.son in whom I am interested is in the iiahit of drinkinit liipior, and I warned the
dealer not to j^ive it to that person or allow him to ijet drink on tiie premises. The
dealer assented at once. Had this l)een an illicit plai'e I could not ha\c had control, hut
ill view of ohtaiinnj; a license the dealorfound it advisahle to stoji sellin'g liipior to that
|iarty. That result could not have been easily obtaiiii-d under any irrej;ular sy.;t(Mn.
l''oi that reason I think the license system in force at present — and if there is any
defect in it, it ini<;ht he remedied is a letter system for the Territtiries, and it should he
strongly enfoi'ced, Anotlier remark I desire to make know n is, that in my opinion
most of the criminal cases in the Territories, or a very small pei'centaife of the cases
liiat come hofore nie, are traceable exclusively to the use of liipior. ( >f all the criminal
iM-^cs I have tried, only two that I recollect were the outcome of excessive use of li(]uor,
iind one of those, in which death occurred, was a case of murder, the veiflict rendered
heiiii; manslaufihter, and it arose out of the prohibition system, I think. The place
uliere tiie man yot his liipioi' was a little ''shack " out of the towi, wliei-e the peojile
manufactured it illicitly —a foul mixture it was said to bi' by those who tasted it—
Mild the man was moi-e or less mad from the use of it. He was not a native of the
place but was a cow-boy fi'om the States. They wfrt^ all more or less under the iiitlu-
riice of liipior. and it was home-made whisky they wei-e usinj,'. The other case was not
under the license system, l)Ut occurred just iiefore the present .system came into force,
and T do not know whether it was illicit liipior that was obtained or not. at all events
il was there. Those are (he only two ciuses out of 10 or .">(> that have came iiefore me,
ill which r could trace that the crime.s were at all due to the u.se of intoxi(;atin.!.' litpiors.
By Rev. Dr. JfrLeod:
."{."i.'^lXi. Have you noticed that of the cast's which have come uiidciyoiir obsei'\ation
me were tivicoable tti the excessive u.se of intoxicatin;; liipior, and that the liipior trade
the liquor habit lias been an element in the disorder that has resulted in those cases ?
No.
."i.").'i!)7. Speakinii of the cases in which li(pior was illicit : wduld
dilVerence if the licpior had been sold lei.(ally ?— When I spoke of the
I referred rather to its manufacture. I should think that licpior manufactured in distil-
leries, where it is pi-operly i-ectitied, would not produce as in jurious results as coiMpounds
made by a man with a few feet of lead pipe and some barley. That is all the machi-
iii'iy th(! man had for the manufacture of liipioi'. Where proper rectifyins.' niacliinery
is used, it is obvious that the liipior pro(hicetl must be of a less irritatiiii; character than
iMii possibly be made without proper apparatus.
.■i."i."il)(S. And that liipior resulted in the crime to which ymi have referred? Ves.
•'<."i."?i)!t. Do you desire us to uiiderstaiul that those ci'imes were directly traceable to
tlic prohibition of the sale of li(|Uor? I can hardly say that, but the impression made
"11 niy mind was. that if there had not been illicit sale lioiiiji on. that man would not
liave lust ids life,
•'1541)0, Have you observed that where the liipior trade is leitali/ed, drinkini; pre-
vails and leads to crime? No.
219
Mil
111
It have made any
liipior iieiiii; illicit.
V|
Liquor Truttic — Noitli-vvest Teiritoiies.
k.
i
.■>.") tOl. |)i( v<iu rciiifiiil)!'!- ill what yeiu's lliose two cases occuri'i'il / — The .scriims imil'
twii yi'iirs ayip at liiiltlcfni-il. A man iianii'd Fleteli c was cliarift'd with shu(>tiii<; a J-[alt'-
l>ree(l. The uthrr was last s|iiirij;.
'.\i)i{)'2. So iMtth cases were si ni-f the adoption of tin' t'ouf jicr cent licci' system ?---
Yes, hoth wei'c siin-c tlicii.
:5ri40-S. I tliiiik you have rcfci-ied to tlic t'oiir )>ci- cent liccf. Did the l)ccf always
contain t'oiif pet- cent or soinetliiiif,' more .' TIiciv was an iminx^ssion al)foad lliat some
of tlie li(|Uor wliicli contained, oi' was supposed to contain onlv, t'ouf pcf cent ot' alcohol,
was a good deal sti'onfief. I <lo not know ot" my own pei'Sonal knowledj^e, Imt that was
the inipfession ahroad.
.■$r)404. |)id it come in legally, or was it smuggled.' That is wliat I let'erred to ;
stronucf li(|Uoi' no doulit came in at that time.
.'{.")IU"i. With i-espect to the permit system, do you think it worked lietter presious
to the four per cent ])lan than suhseipiently '/~~ Yes. That is the reason ] think the four
per cent was rcinfori'ed and stronger liijuor came in, more like eiglit than four per cent.
.1 was tnUI that the four ]>er cent heer was such that people did ;iol care to drink it. Ff
stronger licpior was allowed to conie in that way, if the suspicion was true, it of course
increased tlie use of liipior.
.'55406. You have said that permits were issued for donieslic use? That was what
was intended.
.■}.")K)7. I'erniits were not ^'ranted for the four per c<>nt l)eer for domestic use, Iji't
for sah", I understanil '.- -Yes. it was for- sale : and it had this condititin, tha' ]KM'son Inly-
ing it had to consume it on the jirendses aiui could not take any home with him. That
is, of course, coi trary to the theory "t" most teniperaiiee people, wiio see a temptation in
that kind of driidving. The four jiercent law, in fac-t, recpiiied it to he tippled.
.Sr)4()S. J)o you think the license .system, .'^o far as your <'xperience has gone for the
short tinu' it had lieen enforced, i> satisfactory .' Yt s, except in tiie rural districts, as
Mr. Donaldsor. stated. I liear that there has heen a great increase in the (pianlity of
liquor sold in the country since the license law has cc>me into force.
.i.")40!l. Would you think that any athantage.' Xo : ni\ ol)ser\alion, howexer, is
more in regard to the town.
.'{■"itlO. ])o you think that this disadxantage in the rinul (list icts may he compen-
.sated hy any adxantage, real or imaginary, in the town .' Yes, because I think the evil
in the country is owing to the law not being enforced. The license law increases faci-
lities for getting li(iuor in the country districts, and T repeat that, from wliat I hear,
there has l)een a considerable increase in the consumption. It is a matter of opinion
whether that evil is greater than any adxantage derived in the town.
.■>.") HI. Imoid your knowledge of the country, and remcmliering that it is sparsely
settled, do you think the license law can lie easily regulated in the rural ilistricts / — No.
They find the license system has the sanu' ditKculties to contend with as the proiiibitory
system, although the temptation is greater to evade a prohibitory law than a license
law. The man who gets a license ha.s a greater reason to (il)ser\t' its pro\ isions than
not to <lo so, becau.se it is his interest to observe them.
.'55411'. Y'^ou spoke of a case here in which you were inteiested, where you warned
the licensee. Coultl you not have proceeded aga it ist an illicit dealer as well, and haxc
punished him? -Yes ; but it is easier to convict under ii license law, lor there is more
evidence created by a license law. Y'ou can lay a charge under different forms. Uiuler
a license law, to give liquor to a man who is interdicted, or to allow liini to get drunk
on the prenii.ses is a serious otl'ence. You can not oidy get the oilender puiushed, but a
much higlier ])eiialty is imposed than under the old law ; and thi' modes of jiroof are
easier under a license system.
^il^l.'V Previous to the license system, do you think there was illicit sale .' — Yes.
.'5.')414. Were the hotel-keepers illicit sellers, and did they supply li((Uor f -Their
have been some convictions. I think all the hotel-keepers will be found to have violated
the law at different times.
.'5541;"). Only one of the hotel-keepers here, we understand, has a license 1 — Y'^es, and
I think he endeavours ttt obey the law. His license costs him !?400, and he is liable not
only to forfeit his license, but al.so his chance of getting a license sub.se(iuently.
HOX. TH0M.\S HOKACE McGuiKE. »
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'i.'iHtl. |)i) yiiu think, t'roin ynui' iil)sci'\;it inn (if the lii-ciisc law licit' and I'lscwlu'i't'.
that it (Idi's ri';,'ulutc tlic trade! I think it docs. If ;;cts a l)cttcr class of men in the
liu>incss. I think where thci'c is ahsulute |iri>liiliiti()u the temptation is very ^reat and
tile law will nut only he hrcken liut jicojile will synipathi/c with those who sell and
luevent thcTu hein;^ convicted.
.■ir)H7. l)oes that not also apply to the trade when lej,'alized ; or are tlicre no
attempts at illicit sales when licenses are j,'ranted. We have 1 n totd that li(|Uor was
sold at from L'o cents to oO cents a ;;la.ss in early days, whatever kind of liipior it mii;ht
lie.' -Fn'ter the license system the profits are not so ureat, and the illicit dealer cannot
I liarye more than tiiose who sell iindei' license.
.'^•")H<S. You spoke of the dilHculty in seciirinii I'onvictions undci- your practice as a
lawyer. Were tliose ditliculties ex])eriehcc(l in cases where prohiliition was enforced, or
u,i- a license system in foi'ce .' T think my remark will ajiply i^cnerally.
.'>">41',l. Was (lilliculty expcrieiu'cd jfcnerally in re;;ai-d to licensed places ,' ^'cs.
;i")4:i<). Was the perjury connnitted in cases of prosecution for \'iolation of the
license law '.--'So. in hotli clas.scs. I do not think then' was very much ditVer-encc.
•'i'lllil. .So it was not where there was ahsolulc prohihition or partial prohiliition '
Nis not in reyai-d to prohibition.
•'>-")Il'"_'. Is it not a fact that the unwillinifness of the witnesses to tell all the truth
arises hecau.se they are "generally parties to the oHence .' Yes. I have known a whole
Township Council sunmioned and .m eHort made to secure conviction : and tliouj;li
'Viiyliody in the place knew they <{ot liipior at the hou.se in ipiestion, yet they .ill
iiiaiiaired to e\ade the i|Uestions and to ^Inc some explanation, so as to lea\'e douht a.s to
wild was sellinjj' and what was sold.
•(•"•i^.'?. You mean that all the jiarties in the Council u'ot drink at the time .' Y'es,
!ill on that flay. They were all in that house drinkinj; ; and e\eryl)ody knew that some
'if them not drink.
'■'t'2\-\. Was that a case under the license system .' — Yes ; liut it was aL'ain>l a l>ei'-
-'•u who had not a license.
•">•") 41'."). Then it was a violation of tlic law hv an illicit seller '. Yes.
•■!")4"_'<i. And iu)t\\ ithstaiulinu; tlifU the whole Town Council was suunnoned.it could
iiul he proved that there had lieeii a \iolalioli of the law ( -It was n<it the Town Council
liut the Township Council.
•'(."ilL'T. Have thei-e lieen any stroiij; inlluences, moral or relij.'ious. Iirou^ht to hear
111! the comuiuuity since you came here ! — 1 lielieve tlie churches are doini; all they can,
Old I know there is a temperance Sftciety in the town and that the meiuhers havt- heen
dciin!,' very good service. I lia\e heard of some persons who were haliitual drunkards at
mil' time and who within the last few years have liecome total alistainers. These cases
.Of ,ittrii)Utalile to the temperauce peojile.
•'>")4l!S. J)o you think the lejjali/.ation of the trade in the couununity will prove a
iiieiiace to those people W'\o ha\ e heen rescued .' — T am inclined to think it may he.
They will he ahle t<» j;et liipior more easily now. l*'ormerly they would have had to ask
tnr a permit, and the litpior would lia\e to he hrouitht in hy failway, and of cours(> they
'"iild ^et it more e.isily now.
• >">42'.t. Have you any means of knowint; what is the feelinu throuj;hout your dis-
iii.t in regard to proiiihitioii ? ] have no means of knowinj;, e.xcejit what oiu- hears in
L'ltivcrsation. There was a good deal <if dissatisfaction expressed with the permit system
^Oicii it was in force. I think the majority are in favour of license.
• ">'i t."!(l. Do you think a jileliiscite would show that.' I have not much faith in
I'li'liiscites.
•">-'"i4-"il . We have known (jf people coming to the Territories because iirohiliitiun was
111 force here and becaus( they wcjuld not be able toobtain lifpior ! Several persons have
'"111 lue that they have come here for that reason.
;i-'>4.ll.'. Is it fair in that c;ise to ha\e jirohibition relaxed step by step until a license
>\steui is substituted .' I do not think it has made very much ditl'erence to any man who
^\ anted to get liijUor.
.'!;")4.S;5. Have you thought of the matter in this way, whether the so-called pr(v
Hihition in the North-west Territories was a prohibition system at all, or simply iv
281
ii !
P
rw»
iiiV
i;-
Liquor Tiaftic — North-west Torritoiies.
licfiist' syhlciii. (■i)iniiimi(l)'(l ))y uni' [ifrsoii, who oxtTciscd it witlmiit any (lisrretioii ? —
It uiis |>ri>liil>itii>ii ti'in|)('rr(l liy tin- |M'nnit systtMii.
.i.'il-'U. Diiydti think tlicri' would have Itct-n leiw dissatist'iiftioii if iicrniits luid hfen
issut'd judiciously? Yes.
.■J.')!.}"). You tiiivt^ statcii, I think, that prohibition was iinpracticalilel—Y't's, I think
so. In II country like this, it led pcojilo into nuinufactui'in<; liijuoi- Iutc. I know «t'iiad
stroll;; suspicion of this Ix'inj^ dont' in I'lincc AlWort. I know two private stills were
discoxcrrd hy the Inland Hcvcnuc ofliccrs.
.■!r)l.'!(i. You think such a law inqu'Rctieahle iM'causc its pi-oxisions arc \ iolatt'd ,'—
Yes.
'M')^'->~. l)oyou think the lii cnsc law inipracticahle for the same reason ?— I tlunk
it will lie violated : hut there will not he the .sanu' teni|>tation to inanufactui-e in private
stills.
."{ot.'JS. Is that hei'ause the pcojilc are allowed their lii|Uoi's { Yes.
.■Jo l."{!*. As to the principle of prohiliition : do you heliex-.' that if ])rohil)ition was
fairly well enforced it would he heneticial ! That is my view. I would he ipiite willini;
to foi'!';,'o li(|uor if it would henetit all the peo})le, because I believe that their health
would be better without it, althouyh that is <iuestionable to some e.Ntent.
:ir)l4(). It is fr<tni a medical and nnjral rea.son, I b(>lieve .' — Yes, perhajis both.
.■l.")IH. < )f course, the prohiliition I mean exempts liipior for medical purposes? —
As it should.
.■?r)442. It is only prohibition as i'e<;ards the u.se of alcoholic li(pior for beveraj^'e
purposes? — I think tjjere cannot be two (juestions alwut it, that any one seriously hxik-
in;; at the matt(>r of prohibition, with that jirovi.so re^ardin^ the u.se of liipior foi' medi-
cal and sacramental jairpose.s, would come to the conclusion that it was pref(M'able.
.liij Jiidiff MrDiinald :
.■{r)44."{. [f it could be enforced? — Yes.
Ihl R,r. Dr. M<h;„l:
'^h\\\. You fear the possibility of enforcement ? — Yes. You cannot enforce tlii^
old style Maine law.
.■ir)14r>. Have you had experience in Maine? — Yes. My experience was that I could
itet all the li(pior I wanted in Maine. The subject had been discussed in Kingston,
before I went to ( )ld ( )ri'hai'd ISeach one sunnner. A nundier of friends vveie discuss
in;; it, and it was ui-,i,'eil that you could not <;et licpior uidess you wei-e well known. Now
we were not known at all, and we went round to three or four diflerent places and pit
all the liipjor we wanted, from bi'andy down. \Ve were strangers, and it was not because
we were well known to the proprietoi-s. Hut that experience was confined to Old Orchaiil
Heach and Portland.
.■<.")44(). I)o you think y<»ur expei'ience at Old Orchard IJeach anil Portland euable-
you to express an opinion as to the condition of affairs in the State of Maine .'—No. I
had, howevei', that expei'ience with respect to the law. Perhaps there were reasons wli\
P(»rtl'ind should be .so, because it is a seaport town.
;jr)447. I suppo.se you do not think it necessary that all the provisions of the la«
should be observed or absolutely enforced ? - No, because 1 never know any law that
could be absolutely enforced. There is the law against mur<ler ; it i-; not absolutelv
enforced, for iiiurch'rs take place. That would be no rea.son why you should repeal tli''
law, because the best you can do is to exerci.se it so far as the machinery will permit.
.■5r)44)S. If a prohibitory law were possible of enforcement so as to reduce the e\ IN
resulting from the drinking habit to a minimum, wouki it be regardetl as a law that wa-
ordinarily successful ? — I think so ; if the law did not result in excessive smuggling ami
excessive manufacturing of illicit liijuors. Li(|uor selling is diH'erent from other ofl'ences.
If it be true that liquors illicitly manufactured are more injurious to a man than tho^i'
which are known as retined li<piors, then of course, there is that evil to be considered.
.■ir»449. Have you ob.served whether adulterated li(|uors are more injurious than
what you call pure licpiors? — No, 1 cannot say .so. Some few individuals are viM'y iiiju
Hon. Thom.\s Horace McCJuire.
282
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ritiiisly a trifled hy lit|Uur, wliatt'Vfi- tliiit lii|iiiir niiiy l)t', mul it iiiiix'iii's to lead Ik disease
at'terwiii'ds. AdidtfTuted lii|ii(>rs, liowevei', seem to have a diU'eriMit elleet nn jieisoris fnmi
Mfdiiwiry li<[Uoi's ; it seems t(i make tliein sick, and the etVeets remain fur days.
lijf Jiidijf Mr Ihmiilil :
.■{5450. It has heeii sui,'},'esled tliat the increase in tiie numlier uf jiermits issued was
ciiised hy the tact of so miicli lit|Uoi's of had i|uality heiiig simigj^led into the country.
Have you any knowledj,'!' of tiuit fact .' No; I do not know what i-ea.son caused tlie
l'!xecuti\(' to clianire the ])ermit system.
.'i"))."'!. Actiuj,' on ordinary principli^s, 1 su|i])ose it was done from some motive for
the [lulihe v\»'al .'~-l liiink so.
.■l.')4 •")•_'. You liave e.xpre.ssed your opinion of a ])leliiseite. 1 siippoHe you prefer the
old fashioned IJritisii system of rejiresentatives of tlie people dealinj; with th«'se (|ues
tions / T tliink so.
.'i.-jl ;").•{. lias the o))inionof llie people of the North-west Territories Ix-en crystalli/eil
in the law in force at the ]iresent time/ That is a very ditheult ipiestion to answer, i
(jo not think that at t!ie last election tins ipu-stioi) was made one of tlie issues in the
election of memhei's, althou;,'h prohahly it ouj^lit to have been. T cannot, however, sj)e,ik
as to that. It V as known before the last election that an attempt would l)e made to
lia\e a license law passed, and that mijiht have had some eU'ect in the election of mem-
licrs to the Le^'islalure in some |ilaees.
•'i'll") 4. .So a Legislature fresh from the people pass(Hi sueh a law .' Yi's, w hatevei'
inferenee may he drawn from that fact. I am undtjr the opinior. from wiiat I iiave
heard, that nearly e\ cry nieudn'r of the Lej,'islature was in favour of some form of a li(|U(H'
license law, with the exception of a couple of nxMnhers. One other remark, somewhat
corrohoratinj; what .Mr. Donaldson has said. I think under a license system tht re is
greater opportunity for the sale of li^'ht wines and heers leplaeinf,' the stronj,' li(Hiors
that were foi'ineriy smu<,'itled into the country. If it he an advantaj^e for the people to
<lrink ale ami wine instead of brandy or other sti'oiii; liipiors, 1 tiiink the lieense system
is desirable, ix'cause com p.'i rati vely little ale was imported under the permit system into
the eoimtry as the freiitht was so consideralile. There was no chai'jie made i)y the
Kxecutive for the permits, but such li(|Uors as ale cost too nau-h foi' freijiht. Of course
those who wanted to de;il in li(piors preferred the sti'onj;er liipiors. Now the licpioi'
limn^iht includes ale and beer, and to that extent thei'e is something; to be said in favour
'it' license as aifainst the prohibitorv system.
I
A I
I: 1
1 )rehanl
N.
.I<»HN COTTON, of Prince .\llierl, Supcrinten<len! of the North-wesi .Mounted
I'nlice. on beiny duly sworn, dejiosed as follows ;
liy ,Ind(je MrDoiudd :
•"'•"i I-")'). How lon^ have you lived in the Territories ' In .M.initoba and the Nortji-
wfsi Territories, I have lived nearly lH) years.
• !""'4-">t). Did you come from the Pro\ineeiif Ontario.' 'N'cs : I came from Ontario
III Manitoba.
■'•'•t.")?. Krom what section of < )ntario did you come? - From Ottawa.
■ i")l.")8. Was there a lieense law in force there in those days? ^'es.
• >"ib"i'.l. How lonj; ha\e you been in the Territories? I has'e been here It) years. I
rt.i^ ;iUii here in lf<7!l, which was iH-fore that time.
■ i'lMiC. When 3'ou eame h(>re, was the ])ermit system in force '. Yes.
•">-''>K)l. Did you come here as a member of the North-west Mounted Police.' — Yes.
■i-">4()2. Ha.s a part of your duty been to see ti) the enforcement of the litpior law
ill any respect, and if so in what way \ Yes, in seein<^ that parties do not laint; lifjuor
ill illcLjally and also to prevent illicit sale.
• i-''i4<).'5. .Sale to Indians ?— To Indians and everylxMJy.
888
i I'
i 1
1 ; ';
llU
Liquor Tiuttic — North-west Territories.
."I'lKU. At iircsi'iit what arr your ilutics uihIit the new svstoin ,' Ai pn'sfiit iinilci
IH' new
.f till
systfiii Wf liiiM- tn iiiil tlic IJcfiisc ( 'iiiinnisNJiiiiiM's to |irc\fiil anv iiit'i'iii;;i'iii<'iii
iicsrnt \n\\ .
1
.■{"•Kir). Tlicii yciii lia\f still III I'lit'ciici' till' law ami Ici |ir('\
I'lil >ali'
iMliaiis
Yes, (•(■rtiiiiilx.
;t")lt>(). And to t I'V <"'isos (tf oU'ciiccs iiikIit llic |ir('M'iil la
I'i'gai'iU liiiliai
fact all iiitVartions ot' tlic law .' Yes.
•'{•"iMiT. Ill what stH'lions nt' tlic Nurtli west 'riTiiloiics lia\i' ymi Immii ^lai ioiu'd tVuiii
time til I iiiif .' At h'lirt Maclriid, l)i';;ina and Ihtc. In llmsi' dav^ tlir |iii|iiilat inn in
that <iistiii'l was very small.
.'(."jICiS. With what diHicidlii's were yiiu I'alli'd ii|iiih must tu ciinti-nil iindi'i' the old
system f Theie \\ as a ^'real deal ot' liiiuur im|ii)iled tVum the I'luted .Stales liy way
I if Kurt Macleiid.
.'i"i Iti'.l. Yiiii refer In smiiuiiliiii; aeniss the line ,' ^'i-s.
•'i'llTO. What was the charaeter of t h<> lii|ii<)r linuiiiht <i\ er .' \'ery had. as a rule.
■"••"il'l. Was (ither lii|inir liniuiiht in frum .Manitnha .' N'es.
;).")17l'. In what kind uf |iaeka;;es was it hiuuLfhl in .' In e\erv ]iiissililc way.
r>\:
Have vim iifteii made sei/.iires .' -\i
.'i-">l7l. Can Villi 'mnc the Cummissiuin
iiiv kind uf an idi-a as lu what suri uf
)packafies the lii|uiir was hruujiht in.' Where it was iiii|iiiiied frum the I'lnled Slate>.
the |peu|)le did nut |iay miieh attention In the way in wliieli i le lii|nui' was |iaeked. If
it wei-e smiiy;^le(l frum anutlier part uf uiir own emintry liy the railway, it wmild Im'
iiiolosed in .some kind of paeka^'e. The ordinary way in the south was to stow it away
ill bottles anion;; merchandise. The hottle trade was, of euiirse, the retail trad
attii
tl
le liiiiior
had
lieen L'ot into the countrv.
:ir)l7-">. Mill people carry liipiid ahoiif on their persuns and sell it.' 'I'liat has ii>
(luiil)t lieen dune, but I only recollect one case of that sort that was tried liefure me. .\-
.1 rule they did not I'arry it, about with them, but they lienerally placed it away wlnii
thev could lav their hands on it when they wanted it.
ilT'i. Take the lii|ii()r brou^dit in froii
I our uwii cuiiiitrv l)\' railwa\-.
AV
heard uf tin cases made tu look like Uibles: what were there the methods a<lo]itcd
under the jiermit system to biiiit; in liiiuur .' That was une. Another, the plan uf
shipping; it a.s if it were iiierchaiidise. A man connected with the liipior mi^dit carry un
some siiburdinate mercantile business, and at the
ill
same time c'ldeavour to iret lii|iiur m
w nil Ills i;uuii
■■\r,[i
The C'ummissiuiieis have been i,'i\en tu understand that larne i|uantities
liiiuur were cuncealcd in packages of suijar and rice '. That has been done.
.■ir)47S. Within yuiir uwii kiiowledue, ha\e packages uf that kind been ii|ieiied
packai,'es of siii^ar and rice and other thini;s and li(|iior found in them '. Yes.
■'i")l7'.l In what way was the lii|iiur generally packed.' It was u;eiicrally cuiucal
as mucli as pussi
bl.
.")fSU. Was the liiiuur yenerally in k
butth
Buth
•'i")4S|. This was put in as freiifht / Yes, with cunsignments u»' freight, i'^n'
instance, there was a lari.'e consii;niiient of soda water at one time, and we found lliat
the buttles contained alcoholic lii|uur, and that the majurity uf the bottles at all e\ciii-
were nut suda water at all.
•'i")lSL'. Ila\t' yuu fuund t'a.ses in which freight cars were fuiinil to contain li(|Uur in
le centre and on the uiitside were found ordinary iiiercliaiidi.si> ( 1 do not know that
til
I have personally made sucii seizures, but 1 ha\e tried case
s in w
1'
■rsuiis ha\
i)<f a jiermit wuu
liich that was doiic
.'i.")IS.",. Tiie Commissioiiirs have been told that cases liaM' been found in which
Id afterwards make use of the stub tu brin;; in aimthcr
^licll
every tiling:
|C
the
u-hl
supply ot li(|Uor. or tu]irutect some lii|Uor bru
etVurts have been make, but did nut succei'd. As tlr
der tl
le same jiermit
lei'init system
lik
else, became better kiiuwn tu the peu[)le. they aet|uii'ed a knowledge i>i it. Before il
days of the regular cancellation of the permits, that is tfi say in the early ilay.s uf
permit system, the permits were used over and uvei
airaiii ; but this became
itllciili
ifter the regular caneellatiiin came intu upcratiuii, ami the permit was caiicelleil w
ICll
.luilN I'u'lTOX.
284
¥
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
! \
llir li<|l|iil w;i-> tniiiiil on ihi' tr.'lill. It' iIk' |M'ii|i|i- roIlM ;,'ct it ititn till' 'I'lTlitiii it's
witliiiiil till' |n'niiil Itfiiii; caiicclliMl, llicy cuiild nt' ciuiisc use it ayaiii. I dn imt -.av that
ilir |ifM|)l(' liad H di'sin' totnadi' tlic law; Init. nn llic nthci' hand, a lai!.'c imiiiiIh-i' ot"
|icu|)lt' wiiuM trv to ii\oid ha\ in;; llit-ir |l(■l■nlit^ cahi-rllcd, it' tliry I'oMld. it \^a^ a svsicni
liv wliifli tlif |w"iniit was only t'nr a rcrlain li-nylli of tiuu'.
;i.'"t|Sl. |)oy()U lliink lliat was a |>oint wliicli was tifncially cnnriNliMl .' A man
uii_'lil say tliai lie drank very liltli'. ami it' lie used tlii' |iciniil iliicc oi- t'oiif liini's, no
liMi'ni woidd lie done.
.">.">|S."i. What otiii'i' diUli'ulty iuiil yon to lonli'nd against .' l''roni llif |iolici' |ioiiit
■ it \ ii'w, under till' [it'iinit system wt- liad imt\ ditliculty to coniiiat, I'^^iieciallv i-emcin-
Im rini; llli' class ot' men any prrniit sysii'in m- an alti'ni|it lo ciitoiic |iio|iiliii inn ciralcs.
I It' coll ISC \M' liad to walcli I lie whisky I iadci> and I iv to tin si lalc I licir [ilatis.
"iol'**ti. Ill tlic cases tried lii't'orc yon, did yon lind i he w iinoses iroiililed with
ueakncss ot' memory ' I invarialiiy fonml it.
.'(."ilSJ. \s to the lime and plai-e .' That was the siimc nearly all ilie limi'.
■'toh'SN. MaiJ yon reason to lielii'\e lliat their tcsiimony amonnt<'d to perjuiv in
collie cases !-- \ liaM' iiol the sli;,'hesl doiilit liMt that il \sas |ierjuiv M'I'n ot'len.
.iolS'.l. |)id yon find any part iciilar law under which ])erjury seemed to |)revail .'
N'es. under the jiresent system. I ha\enot had enoui,di i-xpcrience uiiilcr the other system
III lie ahlc to 1,'ive an o|iiniiiii. Iiecansellie license system has not lii'en sullicieinly lontj
in ii|ieration.
.'i.'ilDO. Well' ymi nii ilir iJriiisli C'oluinliia t'ronlieral all '. No. I lia\e ncM-r lieen
u e^t ot' I'olt .Maclcod.
■ luHM. Djdyou ilnd that as the railway o|icned nji tluconiiliy, iiioii' |ico|i|e came in,
and that li(|\ior came in more freely, and there was more dilliculty in lookini.' after the
lii|Uor .' That H|ii)lied to the Canadian Pacific Itailway. It made no ditlerence \\liale\er
ill I he southern part, near the international lioiindary.
'i") I'.Il'. While it may not haxc made any dill'erence in the ((iianl ity im|iorled, did
ymi lind that less lii|Uor came in from the I'nileil States and more hy railway .' It was
iln'ii lirouulit in fioin t wo dircction.s instead of one.
^i") I'J-'i. Then the railway had the elVect of i;iviii;,' a ino<lc of access which had not
|irevioiisly existed.' - Yes, it uaxe a hetter chance to the |ieo|ile lliere to i;et lii|nor. if
tliey could avoid (letection on the train. In the southern district il walnut so. for
the I |ilc would have to travel MR), :Jt)0 or liUU miles with it.
:i-"i I'.Il. Were seizures fre(|Ue)lt 1 — Yes.
;i."i|!)r>. You endeaxoui'cd to enforce the law, I supj)Ose, and with all the means at
ymir disposal '! — Yes, e\ery eH'ort has lieen made hy the force to carry out the law.
•'!•"> I'.MI. The present law, we understand, came into force on 1st .Sl.-iy last ? -'\'es.
")"||!I7. ruder it. what dilliculties Innc yoii experienced / Such a thin;; as
-earchin;,' trains is practically done away with. We have had no dilliculty, aiul certainly
no coiiiplainls have lieen made to the police of infractions of the law, and of course
loiiiplaints Would lie made to them. I'p to this time the law has lieeii enforced.
.'iol'.IS. What has heeii tin? ell'ect of the law on I iidians as re;,Mrds their L;rt I Iiil;-
lii|Uor ,' — I lia\e Jiever myself seen an Indian under the inlluence of liipior in t his di■^t rict.
I lia\(' tried one cii.se latterly of a llalf-lireed sujiplyin;; lii|Uor lo a sipiaw since the law
<anie into force. That is the only case now on record in this district. I have lieen on
nil ilic Indian Reserves, anil I ha\e ne\er setni an Indian drunk. J>ut there is always a
• liuiuer in this way : the Indians have people related hoth hy lilood and connnon laii-
:;uai;e, who have, nevertheless, a iit;ht to purchase liipior, and such a man can w.ilk up
■ ind liuy li(|Uor, and of course, unless a jioliceman is present, it may he liroui;ht away
and yi\en to Indians. 80, of cour.se, the facilities for the Indian.s to hay litpior have
hi'cn increased, and there is much ditliculty in that direction. I think in the case of the
Indians there should he extra jirecautions taken to prevent them ohtainiiiij; li(|Uin',
'"•cause while liipmr may make a white man jolly, it has very dill'erent effects on the
Indian.
;'iol'.)li. You think it is po.ssil)le for him to ^^et drunk under the licen.se .system 1 —
I 1' to this time we have not had that e.xperience of t)ie law, or at all events up to the
lii^t day or so, wi' have not had any ditliculty- The vast majority of the Indians in this
285
! I
I' n
I>ll
i!^^
-).';
Ill
Liquor Tniflic — Norfh-west Toiritories.
<liNii'i(a ill) nut wisli to i>l)tiiiti lii|U<)i'. If it nmis put uiidrr thi'ir imsrs, tlicy iiii^lit tiikf
it. Iiiit tliry (lit 111(1 wisli it. Of «uiirs(' it is now nioif |ii(il)iil)lf timt the Indiims will
;,'<'l lii|iiiir tliiin it whs Ix'fore, l)ccaiiM> tlii-y «'<>iil(l not olitiiiii liijunr hy pfrniit iinilci' the
|it'rniit ^ysicin, uihI tlic wliisky (it'iilcrs cci-tainly <li<l nut lirin;; in liijuoi' to j,'ivc iiwiiy.
.■tr)")()(). You liii\<' spokrn of llit^ lii|iior sMiii;,';{lt'(l iii'ioss tile lioriirr licint; of foul
diaructcr. WImt wiis tin- i|uiility of li(|Uor hroujjlit in in othci' piirts of tlic fouiilry : wii!>
it the ordiiiiiiy li(|uoi- liioujfht in from tlic oilu'i- proviiicHH ? — B«'for«« thi- Ciiniidijin
I'licilif Hiiilwiiy wits liiiilt, Idonotknow as if;,'iirils ilic tcriitoi'v noi-tii of the railway,
hut in llu' southern part of tlic coiinlry. in tin' h'ort .MaclciKl rt'j,'ion, tin- whisky was
always ciin^idfrtMl to lie very liiid.
;<r).")(J|. Were tliiTi' illicit stills there / -It was reported that there was an ''N '
still in one place. Hearoli was inwie for it, and part of the still was found. I*' nad
Ween used at all, it had heen used very little.
.'i.'i.')()l', |)id you liiul that the liijuors hi-ou^ht in under pernv' .t- <(eneraliv
s|iirituuus liipiors !- Almost insarialily so.
;(.">.")();<. Was any ales lirou;;lit in ! They would not he hrnUjL'ht in, as ti'anspoi'tatioii
was very exj(enHive, and in tho winter it was iinpo.HsihIe to transport sueh li(|U()rs on
aoeount ((f frost.
■■{r».">04. They are, at all ovents, h>'ou;;lit in more freely now .' I pi'esumeso, In-'eause
a man can now ^o and IiuvhU'.
//// h'rr. /),: Mrl.,„d:
;?;").")()."). |)id you notice that you had more dilUculty when the foui per cent heer
caiiiH into forc(^/ "Xo. I do not think we had. There mijLflit ha\e heen at some points
when there was a rush, hut f cannot e\cn say that : I do not think it made nnicii
ditl'ei-ence.
,■{."),"(()(>. Then you think there was not mu<'h liiU'erence in the ijuaiitity hrou^ht in
hefore or after tins introduction of tlu) four per cc^iit heer system ] No.
.■{o.JOT. I notice in your report of |SS!t, you say :
" 'Die i'(instriictii>n of tlic iiiiiiii line of tlic ('aiiinliaii I'acilic Kiiilway iirncccilcil i{iiii'tiy. iiiul tin
tiitiil alisciiccof nil sci'iiiiis crime imtw itlistiunliii^; the sinlilcii iiitliix of tlioiisiiiiils of iiiiijk'Ii iiiivviis
was ii'iiMi'kcil witli K.stiiiiislniiciK. This was a^'aiii am! ii;.;aiii limac tcstiiiKiiiy lo liy prnniiiicnt iiiin
wild hail liiiil c\|)criciicc in iitlici' cniiiitrics. Kvcn with the cilirieiit pnlitt' .siirvcillaiicc iiiaiiitaiiuii.
such happy icsulls coiilil not, I think, have conic alioiit hut for the prohihitoiy laws cxintiiin. That
tlic.Mc laws were .sometiiiii'N Inoki'ii, c\fn in those ilays, is an unileiiiaMc fact. .Such, however, was
the exception, not the rule."
l)o you think that this coiulition, e\en with an etlicient police force, coiilil
not have existed without a prohihitory law? — Yes. If all the workin;; parties had had
the ri;;ht to hrinj; in li(|Uor and u.se it, the story of tlie c instruction of the Canadian
Pac iti<' Railway would have heen exactly similar to the ' istory of the Northern I'acitir
ami the Union PaciKc Railways. There would have hccn rows and murders of all kinds,
I have no douht.
3r)r)08. You say in another para(.;raph of yi'i'i lejxirt ;
" The larj^e iiiinilier of ajipeal inlscm that is, appeals irom nia^'ist rates to Siipi-eine Coiit'ts luis.
I think, luoiiglit o\it many points worthy of eonsiileiation, with a view of liriiij;ii»^' aliout some ilesii
alile aineiiclments in the .\cl. Take this point, for instance : one of the leanieil .liiil<,'es liefoi-e wlii>ii
ajipeals were heanl holds that any o'.e lirini;iiig in lii|iioi- iiinlcr the Lientenuiit ( iovernor's |ieiiiiii
may transfer such liipior to othei lesiilents of the 'I'enitories, who arc not theinseh cs in possession <>'.
permits :, and fin-ther, that persons so ieceivin(4 liipior are not lialile to punishment liy tine or ini|iii
soniMent. My List desire is to criticise in the slightest denrc'c the legality of such jadgment. I may.
liov ever, add that if this is the cornet reading of the Act, it will hereafter eeitaiiily handicap ile
poliee in their etl'orts to suppress illegal liipior tiatHc."
Do you find ditticultv in rejjard to the lejiality of the judjiinents? — \'es. < in
account of thtit jud;,'inent, it wa,s very ditlicult to prevent sale, and also to prove it.
^MoO'J. Prohahly this was never done. If there was a permit produced, anci if the
(piaiitity of li(|Uor there did not exceed what was mentioned on the permit, you did imi
endeavour to ascertain whether it was hrou^ht in illej^ally or not ? -Exactly so.
.■{r).")10. !>o you a<;ree with Mr. lleid and his assistant, that they had to take extra
precautions in or;ier the keep liquor away from the [ndians ? — [ think extra precautions
.J'j:i>; Ootdn.
286
f)7 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I nil I
. iiml tilt
liivvirs
lent iiicii
liutiiiiiol.
I. 'I'liiil
vt'f, was
wkI llHil
Jaiiiidiaii
PiU'itir
lUkiinl-,
ll-tM ll^ls.
iiiH' ilcsii
lie wl
•"s |«'iniii
iSCS.sidll III
III' iiii|>ii
I im;i\.
lifiip
will liiivc In III' iiiiiiiitiiiiiril, mill rliis Iium hi-i'i, ilniif mi tlif ii'scrvcs in tlii> ilistijit. 'i'licy
ill'l' \ isittHi llliill' t'li'i|UrMtiy, mill nt" i'iHII'nc Wr IlilM' III Wlllcll tlli'lll lllnli' Clirrtully, I'SJH'C
iiillv lit tin- time lit' till" miiiuiii tri'iity piiyiiifiits. Of cnuisi', tliiTc is ilmi^tM'iit lliiif tiiiu-,
tiir wlii'ii llii' liiiliaii lias iiiniii'y lie can llii-ii ;,'i't wliisky. |
r>A\VI{KN<'K NVIM.iA.M IIKIU'll M Kit. ('.iimnissiiini-i nf ili.. N-niliwrst
Mtiiitili-il JNiiicr, uii lii'iim iliily swurn, ili')iiisi'il as t'lillnwH :
Ihl .liiihji Mr DiiiKilil :
'.\'u)\\ . Iliiw liiiii; lwi\'i> yiiii I'esiiliMJ in till' Nmlli wrsi Ti'irilurics ,' ( Hit .'lo \cars.
.'i."i."(| •_'. |)i(| Villi ciiiiir lici'r t'riiin mil' iif tlir lit lirr |iMi\ iiirrs '. I I'liliii- t'niiii KiiiLtstun,
< Mitariii.
.l.").") 1 :». Ill what yi'iir,' In tin- lattrr part of 1S7l'.
Iiri.'d I. {''riini what |)lacf iliil ymi i>r;;inally runii' ? Kruiii williin unr mile uf the
|iii'si'ni tiivvn of <>rnisliiwn in tlu' Slate of Now York.
:l"i."i|."». What, systi'in .'.as in fnrri' tlirii' in i-i'u''ii'l !•' t hr iisr of iiiluxiraliiii; lii|iior .'
Thi'v hull II lii'i'iisi' system in foi'ee mIh'Ii I eame III Maniiiiha.
.■(").") 1 1). When iliii you eome inio ilie Territories |)ro|i(!r ( -I was iliioui,'li the Terr'i-
tiiiies a Kiioil ileal tliou<{hout the years lS7.'{-4-">.
U'lrilT. Wliiit system was then in foree !- No liniior was alloweil. The |ieiinil
sVsleiii w;is inti'iiiliieeil liefore Mr. I^airil came into the Territories as (io\einor.
.'i."i."i|S. So no lii|uoi' was allowed in the Territories.' t^iiite so.
."i."i."i 1 It. You were not, ! suiipose. lu'oin^'lit into eoiitael otlicially i it li a liei'iise law
lii't'iiie the |ir('seiit law eame into foive f No.
.■i."i."n'l). Tlu'ii there was a permit system .' Since the .Mounted I'ojice have come
into the country. I know that no lii|Uiir siniii;;ilini; has lieen ^'oiiii; on.
.i.")"r_M. When you first came into the Territories, what was your otiicial position? -
I uMs one of the otlicers of the iioundary ('oiniiiission.
•'!">")'_'l'. And what oHicial position did you hold suli.seipiently ? - i was connected with
ilir Indian l)epurt iiient in lS7.'i. I remained there until ISSti, when I came to the
Niil til west Mounted Police.
.'(."i.'i'J.'i. While vou were connected with the Indian l)e|iai'tment, had xcii anvthiiig
III ilip with keepini; lii|tior away from the Indians ; Yes, and I was a .Maj^'ist rale.
.'I'l'iL* 1. Had you ditliciilty in doinj,' so .' I kept it down by watching; them.
W't'^yl'y. I )id you find very many people williiii,' to sell to liiilians't -There were a
unal luaiiv who would .sell to tl' in, to the Sioux. I lived at itirtle, and was (loNcrn-
Ill aiient tiiere. f wa:' i-. the Iwiliit of \isitiii;,' Turtle Mountain and liraiidon, and
in the Territories, Kort I'elly to the north and down to .Moose .Mouetain.
■ i"!')!.'!;. I )id you find that you had to exercise diliijence in order to iireseni the
I |ile from lireaking the law ? f was kept travellinf^ the wiiole time.
•i-"'-")'_'7. When you heeaine connected with the police force, of course vour duties
wiTc more extensive? Yes.
■ I •"••") "J S. What dilHculties did you experience in keepinj; ii(|iior out .' I found that
a Miv iari;e pro|)ortion of the population would evade the law if they could.
:tr).")2it. ill what shape would they fiet the liipior in? In any sha|ie il-.ey could
iiiaiiaiic it. They would try one iliMl<;e, and when we found that out they would iii\ent
aunlhcr scheme.
.'!.").").'tO. Can you tell the (./ommission what some of Miem were ? - A y;reat deal of
lii|Hni came in liy means of small kegs inserted in casl.s of sii<,'ar or rice. || was con-
-iitiied sometimes to the leadinjj peo|)le of the North-west Territories, to prominent
Met liiidist ministers or to priests. No doubt thousands and thousands of gallons of
lii|iiiir came in in that way, because we did not like to e.xamine ri'spectable people's
;;'iiiil-. hut we did so after a time, and we found, for instance, in the centre of one
287
I '
'II 1
[I m' '.
iJ-
n
|r--i-
If
Liquor Tmffic — Nortli-Avest Territories.
liiiTcl i)t suijai' iir rice
iisitjiii'il to ,1 divine ut liii;i( stiiiidini,' in tlic ccpuntrv'. a li\
Inn ki'ii of ali-i(lu>l, hijinily or snnic ntlicr •^tnini; li(|Unr.
:(.■>-).■! I. Y
liad
reason to Niii)]i(>se liiat tins was l)eiiii; done as a tVaud <in him .' I
think so.
.'t.jrj.'S'J. ll was siipjiiised that a eniisiijinncnt to that <;enllenian would not he i
aniined .' - No douht tliert- wefc tluiusiinds of packajjes (»f that sort, and I iiad to ui
in order that ni
o ^)aekaL(e should ]iass without an examination.
);i.i
\. It has lieen staled that sometim
es 111 cars ordii.arv men
■hand
ISC would
on the oil
aiu
Isidi
roii was
(■ and iHiuiir imskh
On
sex'ci'al (iceasHuis
th
found seereted in that wav. Kcir instanee tiiei'e was a car load of I
(' cars were examined
lacoii
from Mamilton cnnsiifiied to one of the leadin.i.' wholesale provisidn mei'chants, and we
found, after we ha<l exaniined it, that in addition to hacon at liotli ends of the
(h
was a sii
|i|ily of the wiirst kinil of s]
)irit,-
\.
this
■haiit of l-Minonton.
IIS car was slii]ij)ed to a leadini.;- iiiei
.■<.").").■)(. |)id you find any case in which the jiackajics contained liquor, hut should
lia\(' contained somethin<' else
I
rememuer one case in
I found
II'.
which was said to he a caryo of four per cent heer, hut instead of lieiiiLC four |ier ce
heer it was jiiinciiially hraiidy.
.'i.').").'!."). What action did you take in that ca^' .' 1 seized Sl.7l>U worth of litjui
We found also that very stroiit; li(|Uor came in under the term of four ]ifr cent liecr o
as -:in;,fer.
.').-).").'!(). Speakinu of <iint;cr, did you (ind that other li<|Uors wen! in the bottle
instead of ^inu'er heer or other temperance drinks .' Yes.
;{.").").'i7. Have you any knowledge of the c msuiiiption of pain-killer and eau d
Colo<;ne ; [ lia\e seen lots of it. 1
have
seen men takeahottle < f esse
if leii
ad<l a little water to it and drink it. I lia\e also seen cocktails made of jiain-ki
.■{•").");{S. At Heiiina we 1
lad e\i(leiice o
f red
iH'iliif use(
ex|ierii'nce, found a man (
Irinki
(I ink
.'{.j").'!"). Were there any illicit stills in the country
.■{r).")40. I'^'oin what did thev manufacture
the I
iiiuor
I.' ^r 1
ia\(' ne\er. in iii\
roni oarley and w lie.ii.
.■ir)541. Did they make any from potatoes? No.
.■?")r)ti'. Or from molasses? — Yes, lots of it, hut harley and wheat were used most l\,
.■5.").")4.'i. Had you any experience on the southern horder? — \''es.
■ I.-ioH. ^Ve have heen told that li
I'es, in immense (luantities.
as hiMii'dit in from the I'nited Statei
;$r)r)ir». |)o yon know anytliinii of the t'haracter of the li(pi<»r that was 1
iroUiTht III
— It was very bad. They would briny; it in across the bordei- and " cache " it if they
could. They would nio\e the li(|uor duriiit;' the nitrlit perhaps I'd oi' .'iO miles. If they
an i\e(l at the boundary on the first of the month, they would not fuobahly re.icli
Macleod for four or live weeks.
.'tr).")K). Were the men who did this peojile who lived in the Territories or in the
Tnited Statt
1 think most of them were residents of the Territories
.■5")") 47. WouUl thev take down emptv kegs to l'"ort Macleod, and come bac
o-l'( ,^
d th
lev would a\oi(l
th
W
\\ |I!I
e had some Indian scouts down llieic
who, on several occasions, tViuiid li(|Uor and arrested the men briiiuiii.t; it in.
.■l.")J4S. Were the licpiors broin;ht into tiie count
ly ycnerally spirit
was I he
vei'y strongest litpior that could he got, for of cours • it could be diluted
.'{rinnt. it has been stati'd to the Commission that tme reason for ihe change in tin-
law was the cpiantity of liipior smuggled in from the I'nited States, and it was tlioiii;lii
better to increase the number of permits issued .' I have no means of knowing that.
.''riTi.'VJ. Have you any means of knowing whelher an earnest desire to exerci.se a
wise disi'fetion ill granting peniiits existed on the part of the issuing authorities '-
I think the piirties who grai
ited
permits ai
ted
as fairly as thev coiiM
I d
o not thiiil'
lowevi
r, that the Lieuteiiant-O >\-ernor was th" proper party to grant pi'rniits.
.'{").").") i. Would V(
i\e had an otlicer in eav'li loi/alitv to do so? The Lieutenant
( iovernor was not the proper one, bi'cause if three orfour re]iresentati\es signed a recniii-
inendaticii for a permit to \h' granted to some parly, the tioNcrnor iiad to comply, for he
could not get out of it.
Lawkknce Wii.i.i.vm IIki«'1i,mi;h.
288
■^TTj! I
l)()ttlr'
was ilif
liii' in ill''
lliouuli'
lliiii.
|.xi'i'fi>'' 'i
Irities ! -
111 lllink.
■uteiiiiii'
ii rfciiiii-
llv, t'lirli"
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'J.'i.'),'):.'. Till' pcopir \vlins(> sil<;ifi'sti()HS Wrvv .-iilnptt'd wci'i' sii|i|)i)S('(| tn rf|)ii'st lit lliti
[iul)lic sfiitiiiuMit, I sii|iiM>s(> f ^ cs. tln'y wore siipposcil ti> do so.
il.").").").'!. What i'X]H'ri('iu'«' liaxo you liad as I't'i^'ai'ds tlic woi'kiiii; ot' tlic in'w law .' -1
iliiiik llif law is a <;(>o(l law. it' it is pi-opcrly carfii'd mil. I do not tliink it is as stroiiLfly
I'lit'oivcd as it sliniild he.
.'!.")"».") 1. Ill wliat way do you iiu'aii ■' - NN'hilo some ut' the hott.'i.solM'y the law stiii'ily,
I think there are others tiiat evade the law. I think some hotels elose the doors at the
|iro])er time and some of the wholesale places do so : hut I also think a yreat maiiv of
them do not. 'I'lir ijreatest fault of the lieense law is this, that while under the piTiiiit.
system the lowest classes of men could not ,i,'i't li(|Uor, hecause theyi'oiild iiol^'et anyone
to recommend them for a pei-mit, and therefore it wiis only l»y ;;ettiiii; it from people
who sold it illegally that tiiev were alile to net it at all, now they are a hie to get all thev
want, and they will he ready to act as informers in order to ohtain half the lines. The
result is us i ha\e indicated.
.(."i .").">.">. Tn your experience of the law, did you find iiiiu'li perjury comniitted hv those
informei's? -I think tliere was a great lack of memory.
;(">.") .")('). W'ei'e they troiihled with xcry had ineiiu)rie.s '/ Persons who were Ncry
rcliahle and trustworthy on otiier occasions would he W(>ak in their ti^siimouv.
.'i.').")")". Are there any suggestions you can otl'er to the Commissioners with a \ iew
111 making the law more workable ? Yes. I think .ill hartendeis and people haiidliiiis
lii|Ui)r should he licensed, as well as the regular lici'iisces. If a man is caught e\,idiiig
ilic law, he should not lie allowed to he ein|iloycd in any other h.ir or drinking |ilacc in
ilic couiiti'y.
li.'i.'iriS. |)oyou think tiiat would he a step in the right direction.' \'es. 1 also
lliiiik all the license<l houses, hotels and hius in the country should lia\c no hack
entrance, hut only one entrance, and that t he ha r should he lighted up during prolii hi ted
hours.
.'{.""ir) .")!). You would lia\c' bars open to the street? ^'es, and without curtains
during jirohihiied hours.
.■(."i.'idO. Those arc. nodouht, ' wo \ cry good suggestions. N'ou would ;^el in this
uav a helter I'lass of haitciiders, and it would he wditli their while to he careful. .\t
the jiiesent time these men can he employed at one har and then another.
.'i").')t)l . .\re tlii're no further suggestions you can otler to the ( 'ommissidu ' \(i.
/)// /I'lr. Iff. Mi'Liiiil :
."i-'i.'"i(lL'. l)o you think t he change fnun I he iicinit system to a liceiiM' sysieni was
made at the desire of t he people of t he Nort h-west Territories '. I ! Mnk it > :is t he desire
nt' the peojile living in the iowns.
.")."i.")ti.'!. What ahoiit ih). opinii.n of the people |i\iiig in the rural districts ' I lliink
iliev larcd nothing about it that i-, I he impression I !ia\e always h,id.
;!.'").'")()+. In your re]iort of l.'^SS you said :
" I loiisldrf tlml tlic li Mies (pf (!iir I mill .-clllcis. » liii, lieiiii; in tlii> iiiiijiiiMN. life !l,i- i lass in
u liii-<i |priis|ii'rity iiiiil wcltMrc 11 ( JciyiMiiiHciil sliiiiilil lie iiinst iiitiicslcil, and the cnmil.iy (muis arc
^inii,ill\ anil iciii.iiUalily free fiiiiii lii|iiiii am! its ctVrits."
.\n(l further on you said :
■ III , '.ilil V tlicse si'ttU'l-s .sci(ii)lii 111 ncvn j;cl w liisk\ mc|iI -a lien tliey visit I lie (nwns. and eMii
ilirii ilic instances nil' rare in wliiili farnieis lime liceii iiiidei die inlliicnre nt lii|nnr ; and altliiiii:.'li
|iiililii' inri'tii",'." Iiiivc iiicasidiially iieeii called ill tin Inwiis, when this law and all iMiinceted with its
I iiloii eini'iit 1 c liecii del lined w ilh aliiise, no niei'lm^js hiive cmt lieeii held, tii my kimu ledue. in rm m|
|il,iics. ii(v ,,■■ any ivsdhitions in I'aMMir of ('Mended lii|niii- |iii\iU'pv. Iieeii passed al any .niiniiy
iiii'i linj,'s.
So there was really no agitation in taxour of an e\ieiision to a license system ' \
am -till of c.x.ictly the same opinion.
il.'t .")()."(. ^'ou expressed your opinion as betwcei' license, as you ohserxed il in
^' iiitoha in the old days, and a measure of proliihil ion in the North-west Teriitories,
ami said : --
■Theic can 111' nil iiiinp.iiisiiii liel ween llir i|iiiinlil>' lit lii|iiiir then sii|i|)lieil In Indians and the
'lUamiljes tlu'V have iililained siiire lliiU |i(ii'liiin iif the I'i'iiv jure was, as .I'liain |ii'ii|il,' ,-,il| ii.
' iiiiinc ipiiieii."
^ IS. I still think so.
289
i-v:!
Pi'i
11: 1
I ()=!<=1-
'i
m
■ ft
Liquor TmlTlic — North-west Teriitories.
.■>.').")()(). How would tluit iijiply to till' Norlli-wfst TeiTitorifs f I tliiiiktlic rndiiiiis
m.w ;;t't inorc lii|iior tliaii tliey did Ix^t'ori' : I do not know tliat tliey d" so iifrc. I ani
niakiii;t sonic inijuiry into tlic matter lieic, Imt I have reason to belie%e tliat tliey do not
jfet nioiT lieri'. Aliout lAirt ^[a<•leod, nioi'e li(|Uoi' is l)ein<; sold to Tndians tlian liefore,
hut tills is all Ix'inj; done by tlie Halt'-hi'eeds, and I do not know more tlian one of two
wiiite men wlio have been eonvicted of selling to Indians.
.■(;j")(J7. Takiiii; tlie tlii'ee systems that were in operation in the Noi-th-\vest Terri
toiies, tiie permit system us it was first administeied, the permit system with the four
per cent 1 leer, and the pi-esent license system, which do you think is tlie liestone?
There were very few people in the country when tlu^ permit system was estal>lished ;
and of course, if you endeavoured to cari'y that out now, you could not carry it out as
ert'ectually. Take it altoj^ether, with the exception of li(|Uor ;;ettinj{ to Indians throujfh
the Half-breeds. I tiiink the license system is away ahead of aiiythinf; else.
:{r)."((iS. I think you have sai«l that, from your observation, the license law is not
carried out very well ? -I think it is bein«; fairly well carried out in some places, liut
that dejtends on th(! rnsjiectors, ;ind uj)on haviiifi the riffhtmeii appointed. If th<^ rii;ht
men .!.;et licenses anfi the law is strictly enforced, I think a license system is besi, care
of course beinj; taken that (hninkards do not get li(|Uor.
.■loot)!). Tf the same conditions had prevailed, and the otticials had doiu' their duty,
would like results have tlowed from the enforcement of the prohibitory law, that you
think will How from the liiense system ? -It is ditHcult to know how to answci' that
(piestion. As chief otiicer of the force I did all I could, anil the officers did all they
could with the permit system. If the temperance men of the country had really meant
work and business, they would have ^iven the police a fji'eat deal of assistance. My
here, however', was that great ditliiiilty was met with in -getting e\ideucc.
There was a want
experience
and in this the otHcers were not assisted liy the teini)eraiice peopli
of moral (lourage on the part of people with teni|)erance proclivitii's. The clergymen
could have given a great deal more assistance than they furnished ; they did not gi\c
regard to the
ttl(
IS iniicli assistance, in fact \-erv little. 'J'hev wrote in the n
lewsiiaiiers in
n-enforceiiient of the law, but when it cat
spaj
to bi- got from them.
.■>.").")70. Who had the less moral
me to the point, there was Ncry little eNideiici
courage, those peopl
hose inlerestcil 111
liipior trade? Of course, those who were interested in the trade were not sufiposed ti
have any moral courage on tills |)oint : but the temperance people and all the liettei
class gave us very little siip]ioit. They did the talking, but when we wantcfl facts i(
secure conxiclions, we very seldom got them.
;{oo71. Under which of the two svstems was there less drunkenness? There «ii-
len
less (Irunkeiiiie.ss during the early days, when the ])ermit system was in force and wl
it was dirticult to get litjuor. In some of the towns tlu're is more drunkenness now thai
bef.
ore, and in .some <
if the to
wns less.
I think there is
more in
Hegi
Tn th
P
although only a short time haselapsed since the license system came into force, I think ii
is the most (piiet and orderly ](laee I have ever seen. There is only one licensed reiiiil
jilace : but at the same time I have seen men on the back streets taking out bottles fiuiu
a saloon, which was authorized to sell, and giving liipior to Indians.
•■<.")57"_'. 80 there is illicit sale? No, I wf)uld not .sa\- that ; it iiimlit liavi' In
llOUlfll
ht at
a Wholesale ])lace.
T do not think there is anv illicit- sale there iiov
.■ir)."i7."5. [s it not a fact that the exercise of ihe permit system destroyed what
le permit s\steiii
liiliition there was in th
I do not think it did. I think tl
far as it went and for the time it lasted, had a good effect.
■|.).')74. r find this from the records : that in I8H;}, there were permitteil (),7.'{() gallon
and ill IS90, I ")S,(i!)0 gallons, a great increase. Kemeiiiber that th(> populat'oii had eiioi
mously increased, and that a very largi' ipiantity of that liiiiior was four per cent beer.
r)."i7o. Take two vears that did not include f
our |ier cent beei
In \!
th'
([UJintity s\as .'i.Kio gallons, in ISSi), the (|iiantity was 21,t);!G ! There was a very liuui'
increase in the population.
.'io.'iT J. I)id the population iiicrea.se seveii ti
me:
I
but 1SS2 and Il^8.'i were two of the cry best years foi' the Territo
population increased very largely during those years.
im not in a |)osition to -fHie
lilt
LaWKKV;!'; \V||.M.\M HKli<UIMKIi.
21HI
^
t,
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(I in ill''
iSCtl 111
Ix'tter
lets 1 1.
Ml' ^Vll^
(I wlicii
o\v tllilll
is \iliiii'.
tliiiil< ii
.(1 rcliiil
ties tVoiii
ijlVC lll'i'll
rlwit lifi'
stem. "-"
t; siiiiliiii-.
liiitli'iii'i
lit lii't'i'-
1SS7. till
(TV 1:mui'
t., 4nli';
he win'i"
and suiiii' I'iiiiK' III
Wnul.l lit-
■l'Ot'l\t'
I,
.■t.").")77. ])i(l yiiu iiuiiiM' wlictlier iit'tci- tin- iiiti-oductinn ut' tiic four |ii'i- cent lieer
s\steiii ill is,*!!), there wiiK ii (liiiiiiuitii)i) in tlie (|uaiitity ot' spirits emisunieil ^- I think
it was iilxiut tlie sunte. Tliere must liaxc heen a litth' falling uff, and the iiii|iuhitiiiii
ke]it increasini!: all the time.
.■|.").")7S. The spirits taken into the country increased at this ratio; in I SS7. the ipian-
lity was 2I.IJ0U j;alli)iis ; in ISSS, ."iti.UOO <,'all"ons, and in IS'.M), 4 1 7.U(K) : there was thus
,1 steady increase all almi;,' the line, and at the same tinu- there was a steady increase ot'
liccr .' The |iopulation increased, I think, faster than the consumption of spirits.
.■>.")."i7!l. Did the population douhle Ix-tween 1SS7 anil 1S!(0 .' If you take in IS'.fj,
I think so.
."irj.'iSO. The only point I desiiv to ascertain is this : the introduction of four per
cent Iteer was supposed to reduce the t|uantitv of spirits consumed ; hut instead of there
haviiiic lieen a ri'diiction, there appears to have Ween a steady increa.se, an increase at
a ;;reater ratio than lief(»i'e '. I do not think the four per cent lieer can lie taken as a
uuidc, iiecause anyliody would as soon drink ginjier ale.
.■)."i")Sl, Was it four per cent iiej'r / Some of it was, 1 su]ipose
iiiiiier four per cent iierinits.
.■i."i.")S2. You sjioke of a consi<j;ninent to a Metliodist minister „.,..., .w. ...
that, or Would some other jierson ( I think that minister is a stronf; teiujierance man,
:!ii(l Would not recei\(' it ; hut it was thounht no doubt an easv wav of <'ettin;t it into
I he Territories.
;i.")."iSL*(/. So he was not a jiarty to tht; transaction in any w;iy ? No.
:fr).")S:{. They simply used his name?- Yes.
.").").")S4. Would the minister know that the j^oods were there to his order? Prolia-
lily he never knew anythinj; about it. It was I'onsigned to him, but soi.ie man on the
mail would have the Iii|Uor dropped oft' at some place.
:i.").')S."i. ,\s a matter of fact, did you (^ver find a minister a parly to such transac-
t ion-., or were ministers ofiposed to the whole system of i)ennits ? — T found, of course, that
the ministers all o\er were very much opjKised to litpior in any form, the whole of
them.
.'i.-i.'iSri. .Speakiiiy about pain-killer ; did you e\ei' know of people takinj; to drink
(111 pain-killer /-[ said 1 never knew of red ink beinji used, but 1 did know of nien
lakinu pain-killer cockti'ils. They had evidently been accustomed to taking cocktails
ill the Kasl, and us i!(ey tviukl not get them here in the regular way. and as they must
li.iM' cinktaiis, cliey mixed up those compounds, and they were able to make good pick-
11)1-- for '.he ui.irning.
i'tii you think it well to establish a trade which creates ajipetites that must
>v .ocktails made of pain-killer ? —T think the |ieoplt; who would do it in the
tty far gone.
'^peakiii;;' of the license l-iw ; do you lielie\e that the license law will be,
n thi.- country? Certainly.
f^'.\' should it be carried out .' I would appoint tirsi-dass Commissioners
iiiiii Inspec ii>, w)ui shmdd be outside all politics or ahy intiuence of that sort, and any
liriiisee c) ught evading tiie law should lose his license, and he should lie comicted after
ivci'ivirg one wiirning.
■ •'••"•Dt). Do you think if the olHcials had Iteen of a similar character, it would iia\<'
• II possible to carry out the prohibitory law .' 1 think the feeling of the ]i(!ople all
iiMT is against prohiliition.
• i-'ii")!! 1 . How do you arri\'e at that conclusion .' - IJy the way they acted during tlu;
liiriiiii system ; 1 judge from what they did.
.'l.'i.'iil^. You have said that you did not think any ri'solution was adoiited, or any
~it'.'-. t:iken to ask for enlarged liipior facilities. Do you know whether meetings were
ii' 'i . :iy steps taken in a formal way to |)rotest against extended facilities lieing
was very little done. The farmers were not inter-
rcat deal
I)c :■ liliei
II, SI HI I.
CMITieii (■ i'
','ii' -Out-ide of the towns, tlu
•'-•ti'i' iiiit- way or the other,
.'l."!."!',)."!. Was a plebiscite wanted ? - I am not aware of it. There was
iif talk about it.
II ll<.i,*=i=
291
:i|
Liquor Ti'attic — Xorth-west Territories.
M
i:!i
i
.■ir).")i)4. Was tliere not a pctitiriii sij^iied l)y .'5.0U0 or 4,000 persons in a sliort time
asl<in<; a [)l('l)iscite (— I tliink it. was sif^ned round the town 1 did not hear ot' ilie peti-
tion lieiii^' earried into tlie country places.
IJ.")59r). Do you think it would have heen fair to nave taken a plel
country? I do not know. [ do not think it would do any hai-ni.
)iseite ni llie
.'{ooi)!). If the pleltiscite were taken, do you think there might he ajmajoi-ity anainst
the [)resent license system ?— Lots of people would sign a tenipi-rance papi
could go ai'ound to the hotels, and even drunkards would sign it.
my man
'}'
ii'j.MlT. Would it mean anvthii
Xot
much
.'(ofjDS. If they signed against }>rohil>ition, would it mean \ery much .' You could
get moi'e to sign for |)rohil)ition than against it.
.■{")")!)<(. If they signed for pi'ohihition, would it mean as much as in the other case?
— I am giving my own opinion fi'(im what I have seen. I think lots of pecp[)le in favnur
of licpior would sign : a great many of the people who .sold illicitly in the old days under
the jiermit .system would leiu! a heljiing hand, liecause they wotdd lie ahle to make moir
money than they ai-e makii !>
on
ly
"et ten cents now.
.■ir)(iOO. Then you think tii
ip
? --Yes, it made I
iipior a
Then they were able to get half a dollar where tlit
'sing of the trade had tlu' result of making lii|Uiii-
M fleal chea|(er than it was before. Under the per-
mit .sy.stem, when a man got a Hve gallon permit for whisky, his frit-nds
d a)
way.'
know when it had c
onie, ai
id th
ev won
Id
it 1
nm and wou
ikl stay with tlie live I'aiii
until the li([Uor had heeii consumed. Now if a man wants a glass of whisky, he can ni
and get it ; foi'nierly a man did not know when he could get another glass, and so In
wou
Id hanir round and endeavour to i;et three or f(
)UI
one after the othe
iofiOI. Do vou think the permit system was larijelv a fraud .' I think it w;
fraud in some ways. rndoubt(>dly a large (piantity of litpior came in without permit,
numbei- of men could not get li»(Uor then who can obtain it now.
am
1 of course a larg'"
.'JoOOli. Will the fact that tht opj)ortunities f
)bti
th
.•reased, owing to the trade being lei;alized, tend to in( rease the drinkini.
in- otitainmg luiuors are greattv ni
r think
will increase the drinking among the lower classes, among the I lalf ■l)reeds ; ijut am
on::
the res[)ectai>le jiortujn
.f tl
le connuuiu
tv, I do not think it will increase dr
uiKim.
')V)0'.\. Do you think it will not afl'ect them at all
/iy Jndye, McDonald :
■\hi\Q\. You think the effect of the change in system will be to ha\e more ale cmi
sumed ? 1 tliink thei'c is more alt,' ct)nsumed now. In old days it was hard to yet it in,
partly on account of the fnught and partly on account of the ditHculties connectfMl witli
the cold weather ; and the result was that one day a man could get ale atid the ncM
could not. If a man could not get it e\erv day in the week, and if there was a brewci \
in the country, the consumption would be still greatei'.
FHAXCrS NOK.MAX of Prince .Vlbei't, Inspector of the Nurtli-west Mountd
Police, on i)eing duly sworn, deposeil as follows : —
Jiij Judge McDonald :
.'15605. Did you come from one of the nther jirovinces to Prince Albert? — J caim'
from Toronto to the North-west.
;{.")tlOt). What coiMitry man are you .' - I am an frishman, finm Dublin.
:i5(107. Hosv long have you lived in the Territories ? — Neai'ly ID yeai's.
•■<5()08. At what places have you resided / — I think J nave been every v here m
the North-west Territories, ft-oni the North Saskatchewan to the intei'national bomnliuy
lini".
•iotiOO. When you came here first, what .system was in force in regai'd to intnxii ;i
ting litpiors f — There was a pei'mit system. The duty (jf issuing permits to bring li<(U'>r
L.AWlfENCK WlI.MAM 1 1 i:i« IIMKH.
292
all' I'i'ii
i»'t it ill,
ted wit 1 1
tlic l\t'Xl
ln-cwi'iv
Uiiuii''''!
loiuiu^uv
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iiilM the niuiitrv, in l.^S'. rested altoj^ctlicr with tlie Commissioner, 'riic ])rt'scut .liulgo
.Mci^fnd had aiitiioiity in rcrtain cases to i,'i'ant jiei'niits, in case of siekness.
.■i.")()lO. ^'ou ha\e iieard the evidence of Col. Merehmerand Superintendent Cotton?
— Ves.
.'^-'idll. |)o you ayree with them as to tlu? state of tiiini,'s in the eoiintry under the
I'diiiit .system ? — In the old days I was stationed alni^M* altuj^elher in the Macleod
luuMtry, and that was the route hy whieli all kinds of pernicious li(|Uor enteicd the Ter-
ritories. It was sfeneially hroui^ht fi'oiu Fort Uenton on the up]ier .Mississippi.
.'i-")(ilL'. You ha\(.' spoken of the pernicious character of the li(|Uor. hid it profess to
lir pure liipioi' I— It was known Ijy the tie.scription of Hourljon liijuoi'.
• iolil;!. Did you ever seize any of it? — Yes, I made lots of seizures.
.■i")<)l I. In what kind of packau'es did it come into the country '. — In every conceix-
.ililc shape, in tins, in i;lass bottles and in i)ottli'S sealed up, which contained three lari;e
piiuhes, and these would he put up in the strongest alcohol ; and in fact, the hot tie would
contain aliout a pint and a half of alcohol.
.■!"•(! I •"). I)id it come in consigned as li(|Uor/ \o, as fruit.
•■)-")G10. Had you reason to helievt' that the alcohol was brought in foi' beverage
purposes? Yes: they were very e.xpensixc peaches, for the bottles were .*'•").()() each.
ri.irh bottle Would contain eight or nine di'inks.
.'(■")() I 7. Wh.-t other modes of concealment were used .' The forty roil whisky, as
ii was called in those days, was concealed in all kinds of packagi-s ; but the principal
pait came in by cargo, which was the better way of doing things. The distance v.as .'ilO
uiili->- from .Macleod to Uenton, and Macleod was the place of sale.
."i.")()lS. Was any brought in concealed in the middle of other packages? In one
1 a^r a ipiantity was brought in, concealed in barrels of nails. There was a live gallon
kfj. in the centre of some barrels, and it came in as a cai'go of nails.
■ lOtil!). Then some of the barrels would contain all nails and some liipior J Y'es.
Ill examining a large inimber of barrels, it was pretty hard to detect which had lii|Uor
ami which had not, and the ])cople in this v.ay biouglit it across the line and concealed
it tor a time. You had to watch thi' coulees and i'Inci- beds and banks and e\erv other
I ■''■"■*■•
')">t)L'U. Did all the.se I'ontrivances tend to keep the police on the alert ? Yes. There
Will' I large number of Indians there, and they were making ]ireparat ions for the lllack-
tiit Treaty, and S.OOO oi' '.),0()0 Indians were gatliei'eil together and we had great diHi-
riiliy ill kee])ing liipior away from them.
•■'•■"itl'2 1. How long was the boundary on which you had to dischai'ge your duties : —
W r had from U'd Hiver to the summit of Chief .Mountain, a distance of I)4<.) miles.
'><''22. Was that all along the international boundarv
Y.-s,
.").") <)■_'.■!. Was smuggling taking place at diH'erent jioints ? Chiefly in the westei-n
■al-l.
■ and .1 half years,
brought in here
:i'ittL'l. Mow long have you been at Prince Albert ? Tliret
.!.")( >•_'."). What was your experience here .' Was any liipior
lermit system ? -A'cs, there was a good deal.
■")'")t)2<5. Did you make seizures .' Yes. It was brought in in ditl'erent ways, some-
> consigned in loinmercial tra\ellers' cases as samples. We would sometimes (iiid
tiiiii
i!ia! those cases would contain eight or ten gadons of whisky.
• '•'ililiT. When the cases were opened was the li(|Uor discovered,
l)oxes wer'c beautifully fixed. When the cases
show ; they were indeed very nii'cly fixed up.
or was it packed
were opened out
liiKiniieath .' The
llir ki'u> would not
• I'lCiL'S. What kinds of liipior would be found in them ,' Alcohol, brandy, gin and
\Wu--kv. They came in as connnercial travellers' ert'ects. In Uegina they would be
tlimuii to the ground, but if there was any danger, they would not be claimed.
•' !■")() ■_".). T supjiose they were claimed by you ? N\'e would leave them for a few
ilay-, and see if anv one would endeaxour to take them away, but they would generally
Mi'i he claimed.
."i.'idlUI, Have you had anv experience of the use of pain-kil'er and e;iu de Cologne
a^ a heveraue ?- -Ye.s.
i| :; I
■
203
;ih,
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
.■?."i().'{l. What liiivn you scfii in tliiit way? Tlicy tin imt go in very nuicli fur that
kind lit" tiling now. In the ohJ days we saw a good ileal ot' it at Foi-t Pelly. There was
not \ery niueh liquor coining in, for there was gi-eat dittieulty in getting it there.
Everything ha<l to eonie by dog train, but the people got some li(|Uor all the .sanii>. Tln^
Halt'-hreeds made a very g<MKl kind of punch, eomjwi.sed of pain-killer, Jamaica ginger',
strong l)laek tea, ami sugar and molasse.s. They \Miuld put this altogether and get \ery
drunk on it. 1 have, however, not sflen it used since the license system came into force.
It was rather an exix-nsive drink.
:{.'")C)32. Of course, it would l)e very expensive to have licjuor brought into the coun-
try l)y dog train .' \''es, and it couhl, of cour.se, be brought in only in small ijuantitics.
3r)();$."{. As the railway came through the country, did you find li(|Uor coming in
more freely ? — Ye.s, although on the Canadian Pacific Hallway, from its construction
from Manitoba U) the mountains, it was not easy to obtain permits to bring in liquor.
We kept liijuor altogether from the working hand.s, except in two or three cases. Soiiii-
fellows did get li(iuoi', and the results were not more than common assaults.
."Mfi.U. Hail you any trouble in regard to illicit stills?- I have never seized any
myself, but some stills were use<l an(Vseizefl.
3.")r);<."). From what substances did they make liquor ?- -From barley.
:$.')t3."?('». You .say you have been here three years? — Yes.
3.")(j.'i7. How have you founri the license law work since it came into operation .'
. — The oidy thing I can say al>out it is, that there have been fewer convictions since it
came into force than there were under the permit sy.stem.
.■jr)(!.'{8. Have you seen more drunkenness since? —There have been very few cases.
I do not come very much into the town, howevei-. T hav(? heard of a few ca-ses amonu
the Half-breeds, iiut thei'e have l)een very few con\ ictions, anfl those not for infractiuii-
of the license law at all.
Jiy Rev. Dr. McLeod :
.'i.")().'5!t. Speaking alwut copvictions, to what comictions do you refer? — I refei- tn
convictions we forinei-ly had under tiie pernnt .system.
.■?.")() 10. Were those convictions on charges of bringing in liciuor illegally ?—Yi's.
.■5.")(U1. You coultl not have such cases now, when it is possible to carry on tlw
trade ? — Yes, they hold licenses. If any party brought inlit|uor in any quantity, how <'\cr
small, and did not hold a license, I consider- that it would be br'inging it in illegally.
.■5.'")(')4"_'. We under'Stand thei-e arv two whoh'sale and one retail license issued liciv.
I)o yuii su])pose the jjr'ojirietor-s l)r-irrg in as much liquor legally as was br'ouglit in bft'ui'-
illicitly .' I do not think so. I think the best dete<'tives in the country arv those wlin
hold licenses.
.■}.")()l.'}. You think they ai'e detectives? -Yes, for their own benefit.
.'{.■)()14. If they knew that a party was smuggling in liquor here, would they tell tin-
authorities.' Yes.
.■i.")(U."). You think tliei-e is no smuggling, however, going on here? — I do not think
there is now.
.■?;")G4(). Is ther'e any illicit alcohol brought irr by wholesale men? — T saw the laM'
that Col. Heivhmei- mentiorred. We ha\ehadan irrstarice of chat here. Tlier'e are twn
wholesale riier'chants here, as jierhaj)s you are awar'c, One the Hud.son Hay Company <
agent arrd the other' a thoi-oughly r-espected firm. Of cour'.se, it would not be totlii-ii
iirter'cst to carr'v on an illicit trade.
.■55<U7. I rnearr men who wouhl sell to parities, who would tlrcrr peildle it out illi-
citly ? Yes.
."{."•(MS. Ar'c you the orrly irrarr orr the watch for' illicit s.de ? — No, we have a I'oii-
tirrual patrol.
:i5(;Ut. The same as befor'e ? -W
e ai'e e\-err inor'e
S-'rO-'jO. Iiut you have had no ciuses of seizure?
ilarrt tirarr befor'e.
We visit all the I'eser've.^aii'
all the outlying settler's in oui- district about twice a week.
.■?.")(■).") I . Then you ar'e constantly tr-a veiling? — Yes. pai'ticular'ly on the r'eser-ves.
•'{•')()•"):.'. So, under- licen.se, you think thei'e is less li(|uoi' coinirrg irrto the coiiritiv
— I do not say there is less liquor comirrg in, for' thei'e is irrore.
Fkancis Noum.w.
1 I
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
1 I
."».")('»r)3. You liiivf not iiotircd wlit'tlicr tlu'iH' lias hct'ii iiioi'c (Ininkt'iUH'ss!— I think
tliiMc is less drunkenness, lu'Ciuise undci' tin- old system I have known 400 of .lOO ual-
lons to ronieiti under permits. So long as tlieliijuor lasted the phu'e was the scene i)t' a
janilMiree.
.S.")0r)4. What is your opinion of the pernut system, from youf ohservation ot' it 1
— I never thought much of the permit system. I think it was a bad system, for the
simple reason that any man in the eountiy eould get five or ten gallons and take it right
into his family. His children and family would see Inm in a continual state of intoxi-
cation. I'nder the present system the man does not get a i)ermit, but he knows where
lie can go and get a gias.s (jf whisky without having it lirought right liefore the eyes of
his family.
:\i)()'ut. Then you prefer a license system to a j)ern)it system ? — Yes, it keeps ]i(|uor
'■It of the houses. I think the license system, if carrit'd out to the full extent, is l)est.
."..")fi.")0. Is it well cari-ied out in this district?--! do not think thei'e ai'e many
('i)Mi[ilaints.
.'}r)6o7. Are there any \ iolation.s of the license law ? I do not know of any.
.■{.■JGoS. Then none have occurred ? — No.
."{oGoO. Col. Herchmer said the law was violated ? -I do not think he referi-ed to
this district, considering the very mi.xed nature of the classes here, for the ])opulation is
more mixed here than in any other district of the N'oith-west Territories. The sy^teMl is
wurking very well now.
.'i.")t)f)0. I siij>pose that under the license system you do not i)ay altention to tlie in-
i-oiiiing litpior, regarding it as having the right to come in ?- -Certainly, and wecid not
search trains.
.'ioGOl. Of course, it is a legitimate trade now. Do you believt^ in the prohiliitimi
lit' the !i(|uor traffic'/ — I do not know how it would work. I have .seen the wurking ni
the Scott Act and do not believe in that.
.'M6()2. Why ( I have .seen it in operation in several places, among (iiIumn in St.
Tiiomas, Ontarifj, and in Yoi'kville, outside of Toronto.
.'(."itjli.'i. Did you live in tho.se places? — Yes.
."iotlCk Then you did not find the Scott Act work very well ? - No.
;i.")(')0."). When was that '. The last time I was in Toronto was in 18S.!, nine years
a no.
:{.")()(■!(). You observed the Scott Act in Yorkville ? Yes.
.■<.")()67. Do you know how long it had l)een in operation there .' (i>uite a w hile.
.'{."ifiOS. Six or (Mght years? — No ; I have been here as long as that.
:>.")()(')(*. When the Scott Act was in forc(f there? Yes. „
^J'tOTO. \Vere you there a long time (luring the operation of tiie Scott Art .' No,
three or four weeks.
•"i")<)71. Yciii think yoio' obsersation nf liie law was sutlieient toenalile yuu tu t'diin
.01 (ppinion .' Yes ; I saw its efi'ects uvei' and o\er again.
•')o()72. Did you see open sale there?— Yes ; I went into une plact; with a friend and
had ii(|Uor over the liar.
.'I.")))";!. That was under the Scott Act .' - Yes. I was a stranger there too. I a>ked
t'lr strong drink, and tlie proprietor said he could not give m,' any, but if I asked fur a
htlh' ginger lieer. he would gi't it for me.
•'i5()7b He gave you ginger beer ? -No, he did not. He said he \Miuld gi\enii^
uinger beer, if 1 asked for it; but instead of dcjing so, he disai)peared diwn a trap dour
and gilt some strong (h'ink for me.
■ >">t)7o. Is that the business that is usually cariieil on at a licensed bar ! They
generally have a cellai- under the bar.
.■).'")()7ti. Is that like a licensed bar ! — No.
">")()77. Do you think there is anything in the fact that liijuor has tu be bimi-ht
ii|i ihi'iiugh a trap door? They had to use every means of coni'ealmeni .
M")G7S. Did the Scott Act cause them to use such mi'ans '. Yes.
/ly Jtid;/'' Mi'DiDiold :
•'5oG7!t. You were in St. Thmuas, I believe? Yes.
29.5
II
,
I/;
fl i
i.fi
Liqiioi' Tranio — Nortli-west Territories,
.'lotj"^0. N\'ii> li((Unr sold tVi't'ly ? — \es, yoii cuiild jjci all tlif liijuur you waiiU-il.
A'// A'"-. /)/•. M,-I.<„d:
;'i.")Of<l. Wlirii was it '. hi ISSC).
;?"i()8'J. Wfic you tliL'fc ion;; .' -I was tliorc over out- inontli.
;i")()f*.">. Anil your oiisi-inatioii was, what ', 'J'liat it was a fraud.
•"ioCii"!!. Was tliat. voui' uhscrvatiou as vou stmlied it, or was it an observation told
you ijy sonu- jieoiiit^ Ining tncn
the
It
was my own indix idual exjicriciioi
.■i5()S">. Tliiit is to say that people when they wanted whisky oi' some such drink,
had to ask t'or it under the name of a tem|pi
dfink and thev would ifet what thev
anted '. Yes : so that if he was diseoxcied, he would say. " What did you ask me tor '. ''
and the reply woidd he, '' I asked you for i;in;fer heer."
;i.")t)S(). Were you e\('r hroujilit forward in a ease of that kind ? — No.
.■!")Gf<7. You say you were a party to this. If you had been summoned as a witness.
Would you have said that you asked for L(in<;er heer? Tf 1 had heen placed under oath.
] would have had to say so.
.■i.")(')Si'<. And that you did not ask for drink / -I sai<l. ■•(iivc me whisky. He said,
•• If you ask for L;in;:t''' beer, I will think o\er it. '
-■fot)."^'.*. And \du would in so answerim; aiul in i,'iviiii; e\ idenee be telliui; the whole
truth and mithin'' but the truth
")(;'.)0. V
ou consider vou wt
•uld I
)(• answeriiii
the (iiiestion .ifter that manner?-
Th
answer uoidd be correct.
liij Jmliji Ml' DiiiKilil :
•\')Gd\. Wiiat e.\|)eri(Mice lia\e vou had in respect to Indians.' I have had a ijreat
deal ot experienci
■'i")Gl):.'. Since the new svstem has come into force do voii consider it has made anv
did
erenee
1
e have nad oi
indi
ilv a sinyle case, one at Duck Lake, where a Half-breed
•{ave some li(|Uor to an Indian woman.
M.")(V.i:i. \\'e understand that Half-breeds arc allowed the same [u-ivilej^e as the w hiti
men 111 rt't
ifard ti
Y.'s. I .1
esire to st.ate that tiiere was no collusion
bet
wi'cli I lie note, fl
rchasiiii,' Ibpior
per and myself at ^'orkxille, in regard to the purchase of liip
SENKUH tiA(i.\<)>, of Itejiina. Superintendent of the Xcntli-west .Mounted
Police, on beiiin' duU sworn, deposed as follows: —
Jti/ Jiiijiji- Mr Dmiiilil :
:i."i(l!l4. How lonji' ha\e you resid'-d in the Territories?- 1 haxc been here since
1S74, close on 10 years.
;).")()'.!."). Hid you come here in connection with the force ,' Yes.
."i.'idDC). What system was in operation in the North-west Territories when the force
came hen-? -The permit .system was established.
;").")697. AVho was (lovernor then ?— The Hon. Mr. Laird.
;i.")(i98. And the permit .system was continued up to 1st May last? — Yes.
■■>.")IV.1'.I. Hii\e you lived in different parts of the Territories ?— Yes. l was stationed
at Edmonton for 10 years, and my next place was Hcffina. T have visited most of the
posts for a few months at a time.
■'i.")700. You have heaiil the evidence given by other otticers of the force, 1 suppose.'
— I dill not heai' all of it.
H.")701. Did you find dilliculty in enforcing the law prohibiting li(pior being brought
into the country ? During the Hrst years I was in the country, there was not much
liquor brought in where I was, because transportation was \ery ditKcult, for exerythinu
had to be luought from \\'innipeg in carts.
Fli.XXCIS XOKMAN.
296
:
W
m
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
:i")70L'. Wliiit ilisliiiicc wouUl it be.' -About '.toU iiiilos. Of omrsc the tifiulit
iiiailt! L'\c'rythiiij{ \(>ry expciisivi'. There wiis ii j^rcfit (Idnjft'f ut' wliisky ln-inic liiiiu'd
into water' liet'ore it l-Ciielied its (lestiliatioii.
,'ir)7l*.'(. ^'ou mean l)y the men ean'yinsj; it '. Yes, liy tile peippic on llie I'nad, wlio
would ta]i tiie hairels and afterwards put wiiler in its jilaee and mal<e up tlie (|uaulity.
I'lir tliat reason vei'y few pecmits wci'e asked foi' at that time.
:i")704. Were the earts and iiorses drixeii liy rejiuiar freif^iitei's ,' \'i's, eliietly l)y
llalf-l)ree(lfi-ei^'iitors.
.■t.")70"). Then sueii licpioi' as would arfi\(( woidd lie very expensive .' Yes.
.■i;")7U<>. In tliose days, did you fvec sec otiiei' (.'ompounds used in place of liijUof?
W'c have iiad e\idenee ;,d\en icLtardini,' the use of a j;r<'at many eomjiounds and diUiis .'
1 lia\e seen painkiller, eau dc (Joloj^ne, Florida water and everything cif that kind in
vOiich thei'e was alcoliol used, and they were drank in the country.
• '•")7U7-'^. NVhat would hap]ien when li(iuor came into a community .' - If a man yot
ill li(|Uor under permit, his friends woulil gather at his house and the keg would he on
i!ir lahle, and they would keeji on drinking until the li(|Uor was all consunietl. Of
(•M\iisc after this thefc was an interval, and then the pain-killer and essences would lie
I, -III. In some eases people would make pain-killer cocktails, hut the use of es.senies as
a rule came' after a li(|Uor spree.
."i."i7Ult. I )id liipior come in undei' cover? Yes.
•')">71(). Had you any e,\perience on the outer liorder ? I was stationed for a very
^liurl time at Kort ^lacleod.
.■1")7 1 I . -Did you seize any liipior lirought in .' ^'es, and it was \ery foul si uff.
•■'>"i7r_'. W'lrit has been your ex])erience in regard to licpior being brought in con-
nalcd in other |iackages'/ I ha\(> seen a gijod deal of liipior concealed in all sorts of
ways and ii great deal had bei'u tlestroyed, and I liaxi- seen a little brought into liegina
li\ express. The otlieers in charge of the station were sometimes a little susjiieious and
unuld open goods and so forth. They f(tund a keg of whisky in a barrel of salt. They
iiiok tile whisky away and re^iacked the barrel, and the owner came and claimed it. lie
had to jiay a tine of ><')0i) for ex]iress and other charges.
/ly /i'rr. Dr. Mr hod:
.'i")71."l. What was done with the whisky? — It was desti'oytMl.
;'>-"i71i. Jfax'e lai'ge (piantities been destroyed ?- Yes. last year we destroyed '.'-'i.")
L:.illiins of whisky which was lieing brought to a inei'chant at Kdmonton. This mei'"hanl,
t'p my own knowledge, had an agent at C'dgary, and he bought provisions and t the
-aiiie time shipped Up li<|iii>r.
.■i")71-"). So there was a kw;.s of the li(|uor besides tlie freight paid ? -\'es.
.■i")7Ui. |)o you think the otKcers in the discharge of their duties wei-e very watchful
uid /ealou.s in trying to enforce the {irohibitory law? — Yes, most of them were: l>ut
llicy were wvy little helped iiy the people of the country, who would protect the whisky
tiailcrs and smugglers.
"i')717. Did you have reju-esentations made by the people who \ant«Ml the law en
toivcd ,' Yes, but when we wanted evidence or information we could not get them to
uiw' it to us.
•">"i7l!^. 8o you were hindered in that way .' -Yes, anil \)\ the feeling among the
|itn|i|c thj;t it was wrong to endeavour to enforce sucli a law.
■ i'i711t. Did you find that the liijuor smuggled was the strongest alcohol I Yes. I
li.iM', however, had little experience with the liipior bi'ought in from the I'nitefl States.
•Miiiiist all the li(|Uor with \vhieh I had to do was brought into the counti'v from ^^'in-
iiil" l: or from ISritish Columbia, and it was good li(|uor.
•">'i7l'(J. Since the license law has conu' into force, have you found that ale has
'ii'ii brought in more freely? There is more ale used in the country. It is easier to
I'liiii.: it in now, as it comes by the ear load, and is of course not as expensive.
•i">7"_'l. Why is it in the best inter'e.sts of the people of the country to encourage
tln' Use of light wines and ales instead of spirituous litiuon-"^ -I think if the wines and
ulfs Were made cheaper, they would be used moi'e, and thei'e would be le.ss druiik-
i'ime>s.
297
i -:'
If I
Liquor Trattic — North-west 'IVnitories.
.">")7--. llii\c you Imil iiiiy ox})(!ri<'iict' nt' tlie wnikiiij; of tlu' licfiisc law [since yoii
came lieic
I live out lit' l!fjL;iua, iiud I scldnni in> into the town.
1M:TKH KOIJEirrSOX, of Piintc AUii'it, Chief Constal)].' and LinMisr Insi.c.toi.
on l)t'ing duly sworn, deposed as f(»llo\vs; —
/ii/ Judge MiDomtld :
.'l.")72.'{. Wore you appointed Chief of Police hy the .Munieijial Council? \>j the
town.
Ii'u24. By whom were you appointed License Inspectoi'? — By the town.
.'55725. How long have you lived in Prince Albert ? - About nine years.
•'557'20. Did you come from one of the other province.s? — I came from Ontario, from
Middlesex County.
35727. Have you resided at Prince Albert e\er since you came to the Territoi'ies '
—Yes.
. .S572H. You ha\'e s(;en, of course, the working of the permit system here? — Yes.
.'55729. When you came here, was that system in frtrce? — Yes.
I{57;?0. Did you Hnd the people a sober and law-abiding conmiunity? — Not any
more than tliey are at the present time.
."55731. Are they so at the pi'esent time? - Yes. They are a law-abiding people:
there are, of course, a few drunks.
.'557."52. T mean as a community ? — Yes, as a conununity.
.'557."53. You think you have seisn no change ? — Very little.
•'557.'54. What are your duties as Licen.se Inspector? — To see that jieopie selling .iii'
licensed and that they are carrying out the license law.
;557."55. You mean your duties are to watch people who are selling without license^,
and to see tliat those having licenses comply with the i'e(|uirements of the law ? — Yes.
.■557.5c. How do you find the law observed? --1 have not had any ditticiilty since 1
have been Lispectoi' in seeing that it is enforced.
.'557.'57. Have you many cases of drunkenne.ss ?— Occasionally we have sevei'al cases,
but the parties are generally Half-breeds.
:.557.'5S. Is this room, in which we are now sitting, your l()ck-\ip? — Yes.
357"59. .hidging from its appearance, there is not much u-i ijr li ? XoL \\;ry lui.. 1. .
occasionally we have a prisoner. Some weeks we have sevi^ral cases, but during Muiie
months we have no cases at all.
35740. From your e.Kperience of the law, which do you tiiiiik is preferable, the .ild
permit system or tlie license system ? -T prefer the license system.
35741. Do you think it is (|uite practicable to woi'k a license liiw projjei'ly ?- Ye>.
35742. Have you found any ditliculty ? — No.
35743. Are there any suggestions you could make to the Commission with a \ieu
to improve the law ? — No, I have no suggestions to offer. I think, howevei', the li.n
rooms should be limited to one door and that the front door.
."55744. Have you any other suggestions to offer? — No.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
35745. Why should drinking places have only one door? — Because at times tlieiv
are parties in after hours : they are liable to go out by a side door, which they could ii"t
<lo if there was oidy the front dotir.
."5574(5. If the licensee was determined to observe the law. it could not make
difference I sujipose whethei' the place was all doors? — Sometimes they are not
traveller may desire to get some liijuor : in fact he can demand a drink of liquor.
35747. At any hour? -Yes.
3574s. Is that the law ? - Yes.
Si;vi.liK (lAfiNON.
298
HIV
A
T1!
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
'■\'>7 i\K Tlifii siilti (lours wdultl not iiuikt' iiiiy (lill'tTfiicu if lie ciiii (Iciiiand litjuor .' —
It would not iniikt' any (liH'cfeiict' in r<';,'iii-(l to tliiit ciisc.
.'}.")7i")0. It' a man was rlct<>nnin(Ml to ol)S(;i'V(> tin- law, would it make any ililftTcnff
wliftlier tiierc was one door or ten dottrs .' It would not rt'ally make any (liffV'nMirc in
that case.
.■$")7")i. Hut is it a fact that you lind excry uian holdini; a lit'cnsc <lctt.>rniin<-d tosril
whenever he can, and if he has a side iloor he will i,'et the jieojile out of the way (|uictly
and fi'ee from ol)ser\ation .' Thei-e is a little in that. I'rohalily you want to go in with
a friend and you <lo not wish some one else to see you iit<\n'^ in. if there is a side do(n',
you can just stej> in. i
.■i")7-")'J, Speaking about the right of a traveller to demand liijuor : if a tourist gets
in iiei'(! at 10 o'clock on Saturday night, which is after hours, rtin he go to a hotel anfl
demand a drink, and would the licen.see ha\(' to sell it? — I thijik you can force a licenvce
to 1,'ive you a »h'ink.
iJ.'JTo.S. At any hour? — I think so.
;ir)7r»4. How long have yf>u been Chief of Police ] .Since 18!)U.
.'t 57 •")•"). Wei'e your (hities more or less l>efore the license law came into force .' .My
duties were about the sar.ie jls they are now. I can say tliat there is not much diti'erence.
Till re are no more <lrunks now than then.
.■i.'")7')(t. Were you employed all tiie time (~ No, I was not.
evening up to IHi)L'.
.'i.")7'i7. How are you emjiloyed now ?-~The town pi'efers to
tlic time, becau.se I can act as tire guard. That is one of the
]irobabiy they tliink there may be more di'inking going on under tin- license system than
there was under the permit .system.
.'ir)7.")8. Did they put on more men .' My hours are from two in tin- day u|) to two
.It night : I am not on all the time.
.'(.") 7 •")!). Hefore that time, were you the only constable '.- I was on duly finni vcm'm
until eleven in the e\-ening.
.■>.'")7'')0. You ha' e three times as long hours now .' Yes.
■■i-'")7()l. Has your salary been increased ? -Yes.
• >">7t)-. You say you are also License Inspector'. What do you do as
liis|iector to see that the law is ol)sei\ed ; do you visit the licensed places.'
the places twice a month.
.'{.")7(i-'i. Does tlie man ktiow when you arc coming ?— No.
•i")704. You have, of course, the right to \isit at any time any jilaco licensed
."i.")7tii'). l>o you drop in at 10 or 1:2 o'clock ? -At any time I see tit.
I was employed in t lit»
have nic employed all
principal reasons, and
License
I visit
Y.
Have you ever found the licensee selling after hours?- No.
Have you evei- heard any coni])laints ', No complaint has been iiiadc to iiic.
It has iiexcr been 'ii<iui.dit to
It illeual Imufs . .So far as
;i.)7t)<'..
.■'.■")7()7.
•'>:'")7t)S. So fill' as you cm judge, tli.-it is not done
my notice.
■'to7()!l. Have you reastin to believe tlieie is any sellin
I !uu aware, there is not.
• !-")770. Or on Sundays '. No.
■ i">771. Did you ever see any drunkenne.-.s on .Sunday ? Yes. but it was from the
ctl'i'ct of lii|uor got on Saturday night.
'i")77"_'. You .say that you jirefer the license law. Why do you think a license system
IHcfeiable? One reason is, that under the old ])ermit system it was customary for
|i(>iiple getting a permit to have their friends join them, and they would drink until they
ilrank all tlie liijuor. You woidd see more (blinking then in a week th.-tn you will see
ill a month at the present time, because the friends all (locked tlii-re as they thought it
iiii^lit be the last li(|Uor they would get ff>r some time.
• >-)77;5. They drank as long as the licpior held out ? Yes. Now ,i man c.-ni yci mimI
;.'el a di'ink when he is disposed to have one.
■ '•'">77-t. But you would have a lot of men drinking for one week under the peiiiiit
system, and you have them (h'inking all the time undei- the saloon system .' When the
men could not get liquor of course they could not get drunk.
i I
299
U(Hior Triillic — Nortli-wost Toi'ritories.
lint
now I licv can ;;i't il I'Vi
•'•}■ "'"V
.M
I'll W III! WI'I'I' ill I III' llilllit lit'
gclliii;; ilriiik uikUt tin- |«'rmil system, i^tst li(|iioi' legally iitiw.
.■<577<). Is it lictlci- tliat (lii'V I'fiii 1,'t't it l(';;iillv / S'cs.
Mi
>i i I.
Is tlifiT iiiiil'c III' less (ii'liikiii'^ now tliaii tli<
lii't'i
I
niniiol Miv.
'>'~!^. Is it just aliiiiit till' sal
I
sec Ncrs lilllf (iitlcicnci
Tl
Maivli 1st, were not more iiuiihtoiis than thtiy wcif iiiuicr tin- jicrmit system
/li/ Jtali/f MrDoaolil :
.■i")77'.i. ^'oll have s|i<)ken of tlu! imveased hotii^ and the ineieuse ot'
(•(illlse voiir (lllties liave increased ''. ^'es.
le itllCst-. n|i til
,uv.
woik
:l")7S(». ^'oii ..I'e also Kii'e liis|)eetur as N.cll as J.ieense liisjieetor >. \'es.
.■}"»7i'<l. 'i'lie duties lit" 111! those otKees are ii. eluded in the duties dischar^'ed Ijy y
Of
OU
There iuis 1 ii an increase of salary, l)Ht there I
uis a
Iso i
•'(•''i7M.'. ^'o|l lia\e not found iin\' increase of laL.inr
M'eii an iMcrease ot
f tl
canseii i)\- reason ot there liem
more (IrunKeiiness •.
I eMi:".Mt sav that I have found any more
trouli
system than I did iiiider tiieold system
lie under tlie jiresent
It. Dominion LmikI S
urxevor. on iieinu (
.lollN I.. IM:K1). of IVince .'
swiiiii. dejiosed as follows :
3r)7''^.'5. Are yon Chairman of the ISoard of License ('iimmissiiiner> h
disti'ict niimher lU.
.■{."i7'^J. Does t\\'r. iiichuh^ I'lince Alliert ? — Yes.
lul\
V
)7.s.i. Mow loiii.
ha
ve yon
resided in the North-west Territories? Nearly 'Jl
years.
here in If
.■{."')7''f). lias I'rince .Mliert lieen yonr place of residence? Not all the time. I calm
M.'')7''^i. Where were you liefore that .' In \\ iniiipi
.•{.") 7 S, - . Did
you come
from one of the other |iro\ iines .' From Oiit.'i
II'IO.
:ir)7f<;>. What ("oiiiitv .' The Ooiintv of Durham
;<.")7!H). Was the license law in force when you U
•ft th-
it was at that tin
1
left my family there, and went l)aekwards and forwards for two or three years, duiiiiu
wliich time tiie Scott Act came into force thcic.
.■!.")7!ll. Did vou see anvtliiiiu: of the workini' of it
:i.")70:.'. Tt came into force in iS,S(J, J li
About that time,
.■t.'i7'.l.l. What can you say about the workinii of it '. It was a failr.re as a total
alistineiice law.
.'t.''>7!M. Pidhihition was not enforced.' — (.^uite .so.
."i.") 7 !••"■). Ill the Northwest Territories you !ia\e seen tlie working of a iiroliiliitnry
law, and since May 1st, of a li'-eiise system : which is preferalile .' A license systei
11 ii\
dl i.d<
'\'t'\)C>. AN'ere you jircseiit when the otticers of the Mounted Police f(a\(' tli'
evidence
? - Y(
i557'.l7. Do you endorse their statements as to li(|Uor being smuggled into tl
le cmiii-
try ? - T k
now it was smui'itled in
.•{.'")70N. Of \yliat character was the 1
the very worst descrijition of spirits.
i([Uoi'
? -Th
li(]U<ir generally smugg
,'led
that.
.■i.")79y. That is wluit we. have been told .' ! am only speaking from liearsay as tn
{')M00. We have been told that the liquor brought in during those times was of
the very strongest description so as to occupy the smallest bulk ? — Yes, tlic .stronger the
spirits, the better.
spi
Petkh 1{obert.ho\.
il
[)1 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894 'g
(»t
f..r
(liiiinu
I iiHi
il>itiii'\
[fin liv
Ic tlii'ii-
(.•nun
II WilS
.'l")S()l. I |ii\)> yon I'vci' liiMMi aliiiii; till' smitlifi'ii ImnliT ! Nu. ! \\n\f mi'Vit m'i'm
iiivtliiiiK in ri'^'iii'il li> llic lii|Unr lui^incvs ilnsvn tliciT.
■|*»M)1.'. I'uy'iil know iiiiyt liiii;,' in ii'ifiiiil In tiir list' ot' run dr ( 'cilituni' iiml |i,iiii
killer .' I liiivt! si'cn tlinn usfd Uvw.
.■<r),su;l. Kniin your t'X|)('iii'iu'<> <»♦' the |ii-iiliiliii(iiy ifiw. iln ymi think It- is pnu;tii'iil)li'
tip I'liforct' II f{('in'nil iiruliiliitury liiw '. Nu.
;i.')Sl)t. S|iriikini; (if a |ii'i>liil)itiii'y lnw, I am s|n'akii>},' ot' wlial is «'Hllt'(l lomii'unlv
national |iidliiliition, a law tor tlir total |)rolii)iit ion tor t lie wliolc ot' (.'aiiaiia of ilii;
iiiaiititai'iiiri', iiii|iortalioii ami salt' ot iiitoxicatinj;; lii|iiiii's for lit'vi'ia^i' |iiir|iosi's '. I tlo
lint tliink it is at all |ii'iit'ti<'al>lc.
.■{."iStj."). Ill cast' siii'li a law wi-rr passed, woiilil you dfi'in il rijilit, lliat iirtnvi'is and
liisiillfi-s should rt't'i'ivt' I'ompciisation t'or tlirir Imildiii^cs and plant whifh would lin
ri'iidi'i'i'il iisi'lcss .' Most di'cidi'dly.
.l.-iSOd. ^'ou lia\f had I'Xpfi'it'iifi' of iIk' lift'iiM- law sincf it caiin' in, liolhasaii
otlicial and as a I'iti/cii. |)o yoii t liiuk it has woiki'd satisfai'torily ? Vt-s, so fai as I
rail jutlj,'!' at |irfscnt. < )f coiirsf il has only liccn in fori'f a short tiiiit'.
.'jriSO". Taking,' the fact that if has come in as a iit'W system, and that it has uisfii
llii' people a freedom they diil not possess liefore, ilid you ohserve that there was iiion^
tlrinkinji durin;; this first few months than there has iieeii latterly, and tha the people
have settitMJ down and lieeome aeeiistoiiied to the new law '. I'lx I'lyhotly expeeted that,
lliere would be more liipior used ; of coui'se it is only an opinion I ^'ise in rei;ard to
r\ervl)ody.
."SriSOS. Are tlieri! any suj;i{'''"'i""'^ >'"'" >'aii make tu i he ( 'ommission as to aiiiend-
iiieiiis to the law so as to make it more workalilt- / I do not know of any. Some
■-iiiti-'estions were made to the Comniissioii hy the Lirense ( 'ominissioners .it l!i".;ina, liiii
at present, I do not know of any.
/I,/ H'l: Dr. Mr hud:
.■(.iHOH. I>y whom are the liieeiise ("ommissioiiers appoinjed .' ISy the I'^xeiiii i\ c m
l!r;,ina.
.'S.-iSlO. What are I heir duties .' They are [a lie found in t he ( trdiiianee for urantiiii;
lirrlises.
.'i.'iSll. rpoii what « uiidit ioii.s .' - I think the <>idiiiaiice lays down that foraeeriain
|ii)|iulat ion a certain numlier of licenses may lie uiaiiteil.
.'{"iSl'J. Is there no provision that the commiiiiiiy can remain without a license, or
iMiisi there lie licenses granted whether ilii^ community want them or not ? I think
there i.s some pi'(i\ision by which they can prott'st against licenses liein;; j^ranted.
ll.")S].'{. We understaiitl that you have issued only one license for the town / ^'es.
• i'lSI I. You are ('ommissioner for .a wider area than the town '. '('es. There is one
reliiil license issued at I )uck Lake and one wholesale license issued at iSatoehe.
;(.">Sl.'"i. hoes your district include Saskatoon '. N'es.
• I'lSlli. Is there iiiiich drunkenness throiiuhoiit t he dist rici '. -I lliink t here is \-ery
iitllc.
"i")SI7. ho you think that absence of drunkenness will be likely tocontiniic if the
license system is continued '.■ I think so. W'e will li" alili' to enforce anil carry out the
law. because there is a better uiiderstandiiii,' about it.
.').")!^|8. What steps will be taken to enforce the license law '. — The I nspeetois lia\ i!
Iii'i'ii instructed to enforce it, and I think, in fact F ki..;w, the Mounted Police lia\i'
taken steps to enforce it.
•""•"iiSli). Is there more than one Inspector '. 'J'liere are twd for the district.
•'(•"iJSi'U. Are they suppo.sed to \ isit places tiiat are licensed .' -^'es ; but as the
' 'iilinance at present stands, only once a y(>ar.
• I'iS'Jl. I)t) you think they will be abh; to exeveise any kind of super\ isioii when
i1m\ only visit (>nci> a year ? Not much.
."i.jSiJl'. So the observance of the law will be at the jileasure of the people holding
liicnses \ — That will be the case, but tire .Mountetl Police have a rij,'lil to act, or in a
I"" II like this a con.stable acts.
"I'lSi';!. Do you think a yeii'-ral proliibitorv law is practicable .' — F do not think it is.
301 "
i
^fi
h:i!
m-
'i,^
W
%
I'^i
i!
MM.
I)
Liquor TnUlic — Norrh-Nvcst Teiritorie?'
iM-'l. Ill tlic Tfi riturit's or aiivwlicrc c!.-
Nut aiivwl
ii-n-
;i.")Si'.'). Why ! — Heciiusc it is impi'ai't'iiililf to cfiriy out suoli ii law.
.">"iN"_'ti. W'liiit niakt's it impMssihlc to arry tint siu-li ii law ! Hiiiiiaii naturt'.
.'i'lSiT. \nu think that liumaii iiatuif is sucli that it would he iiii|iossiiiit' to carry
out >iicli a liiw
Al
OU II'
:lit
IS vM'ij icll a mail i>i ;i iiuniiicr ot iiii'ii not to scim- tlu'
Aliniiihty in a partu'iilar way
;!;")>':'>!. ^''>'.i think it is a matter of juinciplc .' N't-s.
.■iriSii'.l, You think worship and the drink ti'adf arc to lie put in thcsamc fat<'j;ory ,'
■ — I do exactly : you are iiitcrt'ciini; with the lilnrty of the sul()fcl in one way as inucli as
ill the other.
,'>."),s;'iO, I >o you think there is an iiittMference with any nunilier of jieople liy the
estahlisliment of the di'ink trade.' — No, I do not I'hink so. I do not, however, want to
enter into any 'irj,'uiiioiit.
.■ir),s;)|. S'oii have said that the pmhiliition of the drink trade would he an inter-
ference with in(li\iilual ri^dits, with the riithts of the people. There are certain jieople
who sav that the drink ti'ade, as estahlislied, interferes with tlii'ir rights and wi
ith \h
lives, in that it is a constiint daii.ncr to them and to the community. Is that tru< f— 1
do not think it is.
.■|.")S;t-_'. You think they arc mistaken .' ^'es.
."l.-iS.')."!. And, therefore, their \ lews should not lie considered.' They lia\e the
privileye of appealinjf from that decision.
.■J."iS:U. I>ut they contend that the trade is a const.iiit menace to the youiiLf :
not think it is.
I
')HXi. And they would like t(> lia\e it put a" .ly, delei;ali/ed. I )o you think their
views oil
jflit not to Ik- considered .' —1 did not sav that.
.•id. .\
re you oppose
il to iirohiliit
am not opposei
I to it,
prohiliition on account ot its alle<;ed impracticahdil
111 princii
."iS.'iy. Are you opposed to the prohiliition in the license law. for tl
!»'■
ihiliition in it :' How do vou mean .' 1 do not understand.
pro\isioi!s in the license law which piohi
hit
lere is some
II man selling
.'triS.'),'^. There are cectain
after prohiliited hours ? Yes.
.■i.-iS.'iit. \V'hy do you ap].ro\(' of that prohiliition and ohjeci to prohiliition of a
larger kind, on principle .' IJecause that would lie likely to disturb the peace
"iSK). That i.s, that the lai'ijei' prohiliition would lead to dist urhances of the peair.
Id not .' That is an arniiinent, or it, is liiulinu' iiitu an aiiiumenl.
but tin
dl
le smaller won
and I do not eare to answer that ipiestion I am perfectly willing; to answer ipiesti
that lead up to inform.'ition. but that is an ari^uinent and
will lead tl. a controxersv.
.'>oS I I . Will vou kiii(ll\' tell the ('oiiimissioners the iiiforniation i •> w'lich
vou iiasc
III' belief that jirohibit imi is impiacticable / lieeause I do not think you can possibly
vo
enforce it.
.i.s
IL'. Tl. I
IS not inform.ilion. I jioii wluii facts do you base
that
iecause we ,s;iw the results
opinion
out, and it was found iiii|iossilile to carry it out.
under the old permit svsteiii. It was tried to be carrii
both.
iSI.'). That suifyests the (|uestioii: Was il prohibition or |ieiiiiission f It wa^
.'i'lNII. NVhicli was it '. It w;is |ieriiiission.
."iriS-t"). You .iudj,'e prohibition by a .system of permission .' I look on the i|uestiini
in this way : people must have a I'crt.dn (piantity if stimuliints. 'I'lie information jiiveii
by the Judn'e, about Maine, .siiows that it is so.
."i.'iSKi. The .liid^e thoii^dit he was not able to base an o|iiiiioii on his iir rmatioii '
--Still he said h
.•|.")S17. I'.ut
able to yet drink tli
Id II. it sav that tlu' .Maine hi
as a failure, 1
iecause lie \\a-
iible to yet drink in Portland '. Me did not say that.
/)'// IikIiii' Mi' DdiiithI :
.'i'lSIS, Speakiiiii of the (piestion of total prohibition and tlie prohibition thai i~
cont.'iined in the license law, 'hat is, prohibitin:; sale during' certain hours and on Sun
•loiiN l>. l{i;i:i>.
30i
m
57 Victoria.
kSesjiional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(iav. .'iiiil si> nil, do yuti nut liiultluit llii- liiilk of piililio srntiiiu'iit is it; fiiMiiii' ot' ihi'
lalici- (troliiltitioii ? Yes, I tliiiik so.
.'>.").SHt. lliivillir till' sClltillKMlt of (lie wllolc roinillllllit V ill f.ivolir ol' tlioc |iro-
\ isioMs. tlu'ic is no (liUicnlty in fiii-i-yin<,' tlicni out '. Not iil ;ill.
.'ir>(Sr)(). In rt'i^nnl to tlic (|ii<>stion of intcift'i-cni't' with tlic ]ii'o|ilf wlio iii.' iiijiirtMl
liy liic tlfink Imliit, and on tluit <;i-ound pivvcntinji tlicii- olitiiiidiiL; diink, take iioaso of
I his kind : W'c Imvc liad it in cvidtMicc, in ono plai'c wln'i-c tlicfc wci-c "JOO iiu-n t'lnploycd
ill a manufactufiin; I'staldislmicnt, (liat I IM) were solici', some of tliciiiliciiii; total ali-tain-
riN and some iiiodi'iatc drinkers, hut tlit'ir was one drunkard. Tlic i|iU'stioii is, wiu-tliiT
tlif lijrlil iiicasure to adopt is to deprive tlie l!l!t men wlio use liipior in iiioderat ion, or
ilo not use it at all, fi'oiii ol>taiiuii<;; it, or to take tliat one man and |iiit liim away from
liipior. What eiiswef would you i;i\i' to siieli a ipiestion as that ! The man liould lie
put away most decidedly, for I do not see wliy others should he called U|ion to sacrifice
1 hi'insel', es.
.'t.'iS.'il, I n these Territories you liave not many driinkaids of i-oui se, I iit in otiier
)'ails of the country they are to he found. These men are constantly appeariiiLf hefore
the police courts, and are sent to jail for short terms, and on lieiiifj; relea.sed follow the
same course a;;ain. Would you consider it het.er tiiat they should he contined in sonic^
iiisiitution foi- a time with a view to their reformation, or at all evfiits for the purpose
of kecpini,' them away from temptation, or would you continue 'he present system .' I
do not see wliy I !•!' should saci'itice themsei .es for one iiiaii, Cndouhtedly he slunild
lie shut up for a time. I should liki> to say this with rei.';u! to total ahstainei's, that !
know tlu'V iuiM' done a lot of Ljood, hut thev should not ti'v to force theii' views on other
|icople. especially vv he i it is forcing them down our throats. We do not try to foi'ceoiir
\ ievvs down their t IpmiIs,
.■i.'iS.-r.'. !)o yon iiiid the inthieii.e of the churc!ies and tcmjierance societies has
liicn henefici.il .' It is doing a gi'oat deal of good, ;io douht. I know that from my
I'xpcriencc in Toronto. I know that 20 or ;{() years .igo, in that Province, nothing
important could lie done vv itlioiit there heiiig some drinkiin; I'oniiected with it.
/iij /iVr. /),: Mrl.rod :
H.-^STjlV I )o you think the proportion is one drunkard out of a hiindri'il drinkers ( -
1 do not : I do not sujipose tiiei'e is one.
ii'iSol. Not one iiiMii out of a hundred of those who take lii|iior dii iks to excess .'
Certainly not.
.'{rii"*;-)"!. Has your oiiscrv at ion hecii (piilc v\ ide ^ No, I liavi' not given that |ioint
iiiucli coiisiderai ion.
:! I
lijl ,/iii/(/i Mr/)iiii<i/(/:
i-"i.sri(). I >o vou lielievi', taking the people who use ales ;ind wines and spiritiKHis
me one and some the other, that there is a propoiiion of 1 in l'Oi) or .">(•(• .' I
iii|i;or
il<i no; think so.
/,'// Nrr. Dr. .!/./,,,.</.
.'i.'iS.'iT. Is there 1 in l.dOO' reiliaps I here might he.
;i.jS.'i,><. Do you think there is I in --'.ODll .' ^'es.
.i.'iS.-i".*. 1 )o you think that pulilic opinion is in favour i>f licensing ; he drink I raile .'
So far as I know, puhlic o|.iiiioii in the North-west Territoiie is in favour of license.
:'i."iS(i(>. How do you arri'e at tli.it conclusion .' The l;ist eleciioii most decidedly
^eltled thai Ipiestion.
.'i.'i.Slii. Was the election lun on the ground of license versus prohihilion ' It was
"lie of the i|uestioiis Up. People considereil it a decided improvement on the o|<| system.
"I;:'li >vas spoken against evei'ywhere.
■ i.'iSli".'. W'e hail it in evideiico from Iwd of the witnesses that it was not an issue at
Mli ,ii the last elect ion 1 it was one of tlii' chief issues,
.'i."i^t;;i. Then it was not the chief issue ( It was one of th; issues. They tried to
kcrii it hack as much as they coulii.
w
303
Liquor Truffle — North-west Tei-ritories,
.■{5804. Have ymi Imd ;iiiy cxpcriciicc of ;i liceiist- liiw cNi-wlicrc tli.iii lici't' and nvt.-r
(I luiiycr )M'i-i(((l tliaii till' tVw iiumtlis it lias licf-ii in force here .' \'es.
.'i.")iS (■).*). l)i(l vou have any expet'ieriee of the license law east liefore you came here
—Yes.
.■{.")S()6. Did yuu notice how it was observed i- I iioticeil that there was a great deal
more drinkiiifi; in Port Hope under the Scott Act than there was under li(;ense.
.■i.")807. Than when the people were prohibited from usiiiL,' it .' |)fUMkeiiness was
more noticeable.
Rkv. W. M. 1{()CHKSTKH, of Prime Albert, o
foil
n Ik'Hilj duly sworn, deposed a-
<jws : —
I;. .4
H
JUj Jadyii McDdiKt/il :
'M)Mi\ Of wiiat Chui'cli ai-e you a i
.■{."iSGU. How lon<t have vou resided in tiie North-west Territi
ster .'--Of the Presbvterian Churcl
1.
-Scarce
ly l>
'I
: ..i
!i"^
!.-' -
:?.")S70. How loni; have you been in Prince Albert? — All that tii
City.
)S71. Did you come here from one of the other la-ovinces? — From Ontario, Ott
;i.")H7l.'. Was the license law in force tiieref- Yes.
;5.'")S7.'i. Have you ha<l any e.vperieiice of tlu^ \\<"rkiiii( of a pr<iliibitory la\\ in an
other country except the North-west Territories ! - \ have had very little experience.
.■15874. Where /-When 1 came from Ottawa I came from the County of Cai'leton
.■<5875. The .Scott Act was in force there for three years? — Yes.
.■}587<). |)id you see anythinu of its operation! F undeivstood that so farasth
suburbs were concerned it was an absolute f.iiiure, on account of the proximity to tli
city.
•■i.j877. [ presume the people wduld nil into the city and obtain w hat li([Uor t In
wanted !—\ presume so.
.■}5878. When you came here the permit system was in force;- -Yes. 1 had expei i
eiice in a slijflit decree in another coi;ntv, in
Stormoiit : not much, howevi
")S7it. Where ; -111 the County of Cornwall, near Woodlands. I had an oppi
tunity ot com]>ariii;Li; the cot
idition of affairs there under the license s\st
I'ln with tli.ii
prevailing during my brief sojourn there under the Scott Act. Iobtaine('. the opini r
the jailor of ( 'ornwall asto the beneti(>ial results of the .\(t wliilsl it was bi'ingenforicii,
iis it was at the time of which I am speaking.
.■55880. Were you at Cornwall at the lime the .Vet w,is again \iite(| on ano wli
en n
was rei)eale(
(1
/
1" , .
55881. ^'ou notic'd no doubt by the piil)lic journals that the Act
was reiiealeil m
lei
Stormoiit ;
I ill
1 not reniembir it.
.•}588l'. Tir
e permit system was in torce when you laiue here first, and siiiei
a license law has been in force .' -Yes.
.■i588;{. How (hd you (ind the permit system work .' .My e.xperieiu
.Mav Ni
)een Aery liim
as, of cour-
ted, but I noticed that there was cunsiderfdile druiikeniiess amomi' tl
men.
.■(5884. !)(
o \ou Iviiow wiiere
the li
about it.
ii|Uor was olitainei
I.' I had
lad my own suspici
.■{5885. Have you found matters imjiruve since the license law 1
las iteen ei
force? T tiiiiik, so far as my observation goes, there has been more drunkenness.
.■{588(). Have you called liie attention of the Chief of Police to that ! — No.
lid
,'55887. He said tiiat he had found no more drunkenness than jire\ii)Uf?ly ? — Yes,
55888. |)o you approNe of the license l,i
.loiiN L. Ukkp.
-N.
304
■ 'I ill
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■ly INV.
i>r tl\rv
I'Xllt'll
iili th.ii
liiiiiiii I'l
■ iitnn-f'i.
wlll'll i'
)V ODllI-'-
,vis\)ici"i'-
Ih'ch I'l
ess.
-Yes, 1 1"
.■?.j880. Are you opjxised to it ? — 1 am.
.'(oHDO. And I sujtposo you are in favt)Ui' of j)rolii')iti()iil- Ye.s.
.■?r)S!)l. J)(>yi)u tliink it \vr(in<( to liwMisc the traffic I — T thiniv it wiont; to license
the traflic.
.'{•"it^Dli. ()t' course, you con.si(ier prohibition advisable. Have you had sutlicient
c\|ierience to know whetiier it would he practicaltle to enforce a jjeneral proliiltitory
l.iw, j)rohil)itini{ the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxiuatinj,' Jiijuoi's for
heverajje purposes .' — "We ha\e had no exjierience of national prohihition.
3r)8D."). J udginj,' from tlie ditUculty you had her'e in carryint,' out the law. whiii is
your opinion? — I could not Itase my calculations on that.
35891. Have you arrixed at any conclusion ? Do you think it would he enforced I
— Ye.s.
.•i.")8!»."). Tu all parts of Canada? — Yts.
.'5.")80C'). Have you studied the ((UP jcion ? -Somewiiat.
.■)58'J7. Let us consider the (pii'stion in reyar '. to the .Maritime Proxiiu'es. Have
you ever reen there?- -No.
35898. There is a lont; sea coast and Prince Edward Island is entirely surniunded
liy the ocean ; then there is the <lulf of St. Lawrence extending; into Quei)ec. J )o you
tliink you would he ai)le to stop smugi,din<^ there and jirevent li((U0i' hein;; lirought into
tli(M'ountry .' It is not necessary to answer that (|uestiou, hecau.se I liave not con-
sidered it.
.'i5899. We will now come nearer home. You have heard to-day the e\idence of
the Mounted Police otticers as to what they attemjited to do on tlie hordei' line of tlie
North-west Territories between that country and the United States, and the i-esults.
Can you make any sugi^estions to the Commissioners, or propose any plan that would be
more effectiv(> in preventini,' smujij^ling .'- -No.
35900. Did you hear th(> evidence of the officers as to the fact of liie people u.^in:;-
pain-killer and eau de Cologne if they could not get anything else ,' Yes.
35901. ^Yas there not vigilance exercised ! The Police Iwuc Im'imi largely success-
ful in keeping out li(|Uor.
.")590"_'. You think tiial incessant \igilance woidd l< ;■ liipiur out? ->'es.
.3590.'{. Did you hear the evidence to-day about li<pi'ii Ix'ing brought in in liiMcs
made (if tin and also Ijrought in iii i)ackage.s of sugar and ric .' ^'es.
•"i5904. Do you think it would l)e possible to keep out li(]Uor it the population
iiicicased and the consumption of tiiose articles increased : would it br pos^-ible id inspcii
iliiiii all f Ye.s, T think .so.
.■i5!l05. Do you think it feasible ? Y'es.
35y0(i. Do you think in the event of the ])assage of a prohibitory law, bi'ew(M~ .uid
ilistillers should ivccixe compensation for tlieir loss of buildings and plant .' No, I -re
!iii reason why they should be compensated.
3.")907. We liad the e\ idence of a clergyman in Itrandon, w ho thoiii,'hi that in ilic
iM'iit of such a law being enacted, renumeration sluadd also be made to those en^aLied
ill the retail trade for the balance of the licensed pei'io(l. ^\'hat do you think of thai
I'luposition .' It is a matter to which ^ have gi\en no eonsidei'at ion ; but looking at it
L;eiieiali\-, I see no I'cason why they should not be granted com|iensat ion.
.").'i90S. Have you considered the (|Uestioii of the treatment of the persistent,
ilruhkard .' Yes.
■">590i). Do you think it \S(aild be better to retain the present system, ur ha\e hini
ii'iiio\ed to some institution with a view to his i-eformation ' 1 think they should lie
(il.iced in an asylum foi' inebriates.
•■'5',U0. Can vou suggest any better plan .' I would suggest taking iiiime<liate ad ion
\> nil respect to the man himself and then taking what steps the law might put in my
li'iuer to pi'oteet him, and 1 would still use all my influence in favour of proliibition.
■■>59ll. What steps would you take in regard to the man himself '. .Mora! suasicm.
3591 J. 1 refer to legal steps.' 1 wcuild take advantage of every pi'ohibitoiy el.uise
ill till' license law.
• i5913. You would iiope to succeed in that! -If thei'e are protective clauses in the
incuse law I .ilundil sav they were not jiut there for nothinu.
305
■2 1 •20'-^->'
I ^
,;
ii
'!
■-M
Liquor Traffic — North- west Territories.
35914. Taking your recollectidu of the influence of the churches and temperance
societies and tlic education of the people, liave you found them to be good ? -Yes, most
decidedly.
Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLvod : '
.Si591o. What influence will the license system have on the younj; men of the com-
munity ? Greater oi)portunities for indulj^inji in lifjuors.
.'{59 Hi. Do you regard law as an educator ,' It lias that efl'ect.
•'{5917. What will he the educational efl'ect of the license law on the young men?
— They will take it for granted that what is legalized hy law is all right.
.■ir)91S. On the othei' hand, do you think tiio prohibition of the traflic, even though
that prohibition be evaded, is an educator on the miiuls of the young people? Yes.
.■i.")919. Even if there were freipient violations of a prohibitory law, you think that
the effect of the driiik being ilelegalized W(»uld have its effect on the rising generation ?
- Y'^es, J am sure of it.
.'5r)9"20. Speaking of the .Scott xVct, was your exj)erience such as to enable you to
form an opinion as to whethei- it had a good efleet oi- not '/ 1 think so.
.■io921. 1 undei'stand you tti say that although the license law has only been in force
here for a few months, so far as you could judge there was more drinking than pre
viously / Yes.
'.\')[)2'2. Are thei-e any influences at work in this connnunity that [irevent the condi-
tion of things Ixiing worse, and if so, what are they?--The influence of oui' churches,
the work of our temperance societies and orgaiiizati(jns and the general educational
influences in operation in this comnuniity. All these influences have been decidedly
felt in the conniuniity.
:l.")9'J."5. l>o you think the existence of licensed taverns and wholesale establishments
in the town contribute to the effectiveness of the moral and religious influences svhicii
are in opei-ation herf!? — No, they militate against them.
.■!r)924. So you think that under the old system with no licenses, even though tlir
law was \iolated, the influences, moi'al and religious, woidd l)e more efl'ectixc than they
can be now / -Y'lw, I think so.
;5r)92u. Speaking about moral and religious intluences, it would .seem a little strangr
that they did not express themselves in any form of jirotest against the change to :i
license law in the Territor'ies ? — 1 am not in a position to say nnich about that, liecausc
1 had hot been here a long time and did nut take any interest in what was going on in
the poiifi(.'al woi'ld. Some slight action was taken by the temjierance people of whiili I
ani aware, and so far as I am able U) understand the nature of the political campaign
this ([uestion was kt'pt out of the i.ssue. I think it is the general impression of the teni
perani'e ])eople in this connnunity that proliibitiim versus lic(>nse was not an issue at llir
last election, and, therefore, the license law i-^ charL;i;ible with the crystalli/.ation of tlir
sentiment in this couimunity.
.■?r)9"2(5. You did iu)t understaiRl that the contc-ianls went before the peopli' anil
the jieople gave tlieir representatives a mandate to enact the law ? — No.
.■{oHl'T. You have said that there has been more drunkenness (jbservable umler the
license law. liave there been moie arrests for drunkenness and disorders that grow
out of drinking since the license law came into force.' i am under tluMMipression, in
fact I feel pretty sm'e that there have been more arit'sts undf'r the license systi-iii. In
connection with that, 1 should like to consult the oflicial records of arrests in imU-i \<>
ascertain fU'Hnitely the facts.
.•».")9-_'S. Would the Town Clerk have those records I— The Town Clerk or the Chin
of Police.
.'10929. How long have these ceils been in this room in which we are sitting •' -
Since we vacated tliis place as a cimreli.
.■?i")9.'{0. How long ago f — It is pretty lu'ar one year since we vacated this Ijuildini;,
at any rate six months ago.
.■i.")9.'U. Were tiiose cells ]>ut in immediately / I think shuitly after we left.
.■{ri9."{i.'. Were tiiey put in before tlie license law came into force f — After tlie license
law, as far as my memory goes.
Rev. W. M. Kochestku.
306
tH) :; I:
^ 'II
y\\]\i
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
kimli'i- til'-
iit liiiiw
is'kmi, i"
kU'lii. I"
|i 1)1-1 U'l' '"
the Clii'-'
kiitiny
ht't.
.■$")!>;}.■(. Were they madt' iuinu'diately after it went into eil'oct? — I tliiiilc so.
.'ir)!)IU. Wheie was tiie iock-uj) previous to that ? — I could scairely tell you.
.■{.")'.).■(."). ( >f course tliere were arrests made, and tliere woidd ha\e to he a lock-up I
sujipose ? — There was a lock-up at the Coui-t-iiouse and the gu ird-rooni at the hai'racks.
351)30. But you think there iiave heen more arrests for drunkeimess and foi' dis-
orders connected witli drunkenness since the license law came in than hefore .'That is
my impression.
/!i/ Jii'/i/r ^frJJunuld :
'Mid'M. To what do you attribute the recent action of the Lejj;islature in passing a
license hiw 1 Is it not a fact that this Legislature, fresh from the {)eo|)le, jiassed such a
1-iw ?- -Unless the indisidtial legislators were personally interested. I ilo not know that
1 have ever given it very much serious thought.
.■5r)!);5i*<. Can you account for this enactment in view of what you ha\f said as to the
lempei-aiice sentiment prevailing, and which I understood you to say prevails through-
uiit the whole constituency. Do you mean that the peoj)le elected rej)resentatives who
went to the Legislatui'e and misrepresented the feelings of the people in the constituen-
cies and passetl a license law /--The I'epresentatives certainly niisiepresented the people
with resjiect to temperanci?.
.'JotllJO. You think they misrepresent tlie sentiment of the [n'opli; generally /—I
cannot speak generally, hut only from my own ohsei'vation as an individual.
^o'.JKJ. Did you liear the statements made hei-e to-day hy men of large experience
in regard to enforcing the f)er!nit law, and who dwelt upon the lack of sentiment in the
muntry hacking U]i the enforcement of the law / — Yes
."ioU-H. W'Un has the hetter opjiortunities to form an o])inion of the sentiment of
llie i)eo])le — tiie Connnissioner and the stall", who aiv going aitout the countiy continu-
misly engaged in discovering offenders and discharging their duties, or you, with all
respect for you as a minister, going ahout and lahouringin this paiticular sect ion .' I do
not Halter myself that 1 icjiresent the tem]ieranci' sentiment with which 1 might lie
taniiJiar. hut 1 think there are men who are likely to take more coravct views than the
iilliriTs of the police.
.'i'l'.IlL'. Tlie ((uestion I asked you was, who would ha\e the; hetter oppurtunity of
juilging and ascei'taining the geneial sentiment of tlii' | pie of the North-west i'erri-
loiies- those otlicers at all the stations oi' yourself, with your two years' residence in
this particular ]iart W the country .' "^'ou did not ask myself personally.
:)")!>i."«. 1 ask you this cjuestioii. Wi; have had the oliicers of the MiKinted I'ulire
lirt'iire this C'onnnission, s|)eaking what they believed to l)e the sentiment of the cum-
Miunity on this i|Ueslion, and they lia\e pointed out the diUlcult jes under which they
li.i\e laboured in en< lea \ou ring to enforce the law, and the\ ha \e spoken of t best rung sent i-
iiirnt pre\ailing in the Territories in fa\ourof the men who weic engaged in this tratlic.
\\\\;\.\ 1 ask is, whether vhose olliceis would be better able to judge the sentiment of the
1 pie of the North-west Territories than you, wlin have been here for Iwn years .' —So
t.ii- as my observation goes, the oliicers of thi' law baseil tiieir o|iinii)Us anil eonrlusions
I'll what '.
■ \'i'M[. I ask V"'" this ipiestion: who has had the bet ter opportunity of juilginu:,
ilir iillicers or you ? I ilo not ask you on what they base that opinion, but I ask vun,
"liii has the better opportunity of forming a fail' estimate of the publii' seiiliineiil
iliiiiu;.'liout the country -the otHcei's of tiie force, who for Hi or 17 years ha \e been
i^nini; about the count rv endeavouring to enforce the law, or you, with your residence
lii'ii' ot two years as a ministei' of the gospel ? — So far as I'ejiresentat ive experience goes.
I ^liimltl say the oliicers of the law.
• >•")'. lb"). Y^iu say you do not think the men who favour prohibition should be called
ii]ii.n III suggest how it is to be carried out. 1 )o you make that answer advisedly .' — 1
>:iiil I did not feel it my duty to suggest metliods.
■"I'l'.l K). Why do you not consider it your duty to suggest methods.' If you and
tiliiirs are desirious of changing the present system, siiould you not be willing to suggest
iiiiilinils to siiow liow the new .system that you propose to cuvvy out will work ,' In the
vil'l
n
mi
: f
i;i
i '' •
Ul— L'O.U*
307
I:
if
Liquor Traffic — Xoith-west Territories. ,
pi-eseiitiitiuM lit' any I'liiM i>i'(>|»>st'(l to lie sul)stituted for another, tlic pcoiilc nnisi Iwim'
souH' idea as to how it slmuld lie oaiTicd out '.' Yes.
.'i.')!)!". You would not propose to put this hct'ore llie eoaiitrv as an al)strai't jiropo
sition, I suppose? — I am not very conversant with tliesc matters. So far as tlie license
system is coneerned, our representatives (hd not put it liefore tiicii' constituencies, tiicy
went l)efo|-e tile Leijislature witii it, in the dark.
-■{oDtiS, Tliere was no vote taken dii'ectiy on proliihition, I lielieve /--The license
.system was not presented or suhniitted to the peojile.
."iuiUy. Is it not a fact that people who are in favour of license claim that ])ulilii
.sentiment is in favom' of the enforcement of such a law? — As lej^islators they did that
.').")!l.'')0. Y'ou ha\c spoken of the Scott Act havin;; i)eeii hroui^ht into contempt im
account of non-enforcement, and for that rtjason it wa.s repealed in Oarleton .' I. tliil
not specif v any County.
.'{50.")!. Not in re;L;ard to Carleton, where it was repealed? I cannot an.swer.
.■{■■')'J.')2. Tn what County did you mean it was rej)ealed ? The statement F made, >n
far as I can rememlter, was this : that at the time when certain counties occupied iii\
nttenti(jn, my conclusion was tliat the Act was brought into contempt hy non-enforcc
ment.
.■i.595.'$. Name one County? — I cannot name any of them; I am simply f^ivin;; i
summary of my conclusi<ins. Tt is jiossihle to arrive at a conclusion with(jut rememheriii;;
the (lata from which that conclusion was derived.
f
^'1
'1h
'1!
m
Wll LI AM VAFJ.EAU .MAO'LISE, of Prince xVlhert, advocate, on hein- .Jul
sworn, ('('posed as follows : —
/i;/ Jiidyi' McDonald :
:\')\)'>i. How lonu: have you resided in Prince Albert ? --Eleven years.
;!.")!).")"). How lont; have vou heen in the North-west Territories ?- -The same lini'
.■^'ii).')(). Prom what County did y
ou come
■riand, Ontario.
:{.j!».")7. 1 su
? — T came from th(> (.Viunty of NortI
pp:
a licen.se law was in force there
Cnvil I came to ili'
Northwest Territories, T never tasted li(;uor in any .shape.
;{r)0.")S. Have you had experience of a prohibitory law anywhere else '. No.
.■?."»'.ir)(t. So your e.\])erience has heen here ? — -Yes, what experience I have had. I
have watch(>d verv cai'efullv the drinkini; customs of the
(If
people, and trom my oliserv ai mn
1 think there is less di'inkiiig jier capita than at any tim(> since [ came to the Territi
T refer to drinkinj.; to excess.
.■{5iM>(). Have you watched the operation of the license law ? Y^
.■{."')!t(i I . Since it has com" into force do you think (here has ])v
)eeii increased (liiin
1 N.
When I lirst
Kenness
done to excess ; ukmi would ijet in
here, all the drinkint; done, siieakiii!; iiCiieiaJK ,
• ) or ( iiallon
k
.f li
(luor an(
1 drink it ail ai
sitting,
effect
If
like mvself refused to take it, it seemed to have almost tl
le
lis sla|i]iin;; a man
(tn the face would have. That was followed hv illicit I'Lur:
in"' established here. F have seen as niany as five or six, and I know atoneiiim
tliere were seven here. That nunibei' also re]iresented the illicit stills that were ru
inniii,'
lere at tiu^ time
F do not know the
lilt of trade done, but takiiiy; one man \vliii
may be said to be a fair representative of the rest, he told mo while I wasdefendini: liim
once for an infrin<.'ement of the law that he has made as hiijli as .''^lOO a dav from sale-. I
was en;,'ai;ed tiotli in |irosecutinLj and defendim; those jiarties.
:i.")!M;L'. What has been v
courts
Th
our exper'enci in rci.arc
1 t.
evuleiice given
■tori
is a most injurious law in thi.s country, that if the evidence nt'
jirosecutor or the informer should convict, he obtains one-half of the fin
lie !?IUO or .S-00, and therefore he has an interest in the case to that extent. I
ihi'
winch u'liiiii
JFkV. W. ^F. FioCIIKSTKIi.
308
pf^T'TT
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ISt llllVl'
t ]lf()l»l
• lici'lisc
U's, tlicy
lit ])\il>lii'
(lid iImH
t(;nii>t nil
,!--iai.l
iniiili', Ml
upii'tl \\\\
ii-cufoiii'
\- tiiviui; a
,(;in;j; iluly
WW tllur.
Nmi-iIiiimi
1,. to ill"
vv had. 1
h^I'l'Vilti'iH
■ n-itnrii-;.
ijiscd dnni-
Tidly, v:i>
it all ^11 ■'
the sum'
liii'it l'l:i'''^
it dlU' 'illll'
,|.(. I'uiiniiiu'
man "I"'
riidiii'- liini
)111 salr . 1
'hct'oiv 'li'
t d.'
■lu'f >>
lldrli v
1 d(.
think I t'ouiid iiimc ihiiii niiL' man who made a [iracticc of niriiuiij,' siicii chaij^rs wliusc
cvidfiuf T I'uidfl Ixdicvc, and several siidi mcin liavc e'omc iict'oi't' me in my time. 1
have prrivt'd cases hy them aii<l disprdved ciiscs liy tlicm, acfoidinj,' as I \v,is ciiuaiifcl
til (Iffcnd or |)i'oscfiiti'. Tlit'rc was an attempt niadf to lia\r the law fhanijt'd. hut thi'
iiiiilifrancc pi-oiiU' in the countfy upposed it sti-onjj;ly.
.'i'llMi:!. l-'niin wiiat ynu ha\(' seen, An yoii tliink a pinhiiiitnry law could hesiiccess-
t'ully ent'oieed, ii law ])ioliihitin,i,' the nianiit'aetiire, importation and sale of intoxicating
linuol's t'of hevefam- piifposes ? No, I do not tliink so. W'lien I canie here tifst Ncry
t'i'w pefiuit.s wei'e ,1,'iven, and the people did tu)t iht much diinking. A j^reat many people
lauie liofe (of course I do not know what theic haliits were hofore), who did not ih'ink.
Afteiwards people licLtatito use liijuor more freely and sultstittites were used at the time,
111 Pine l>rew(>d ale they called it. It was sometliiiii; almost as stroni^ as whisky, I uiuh'istanil,
and made in the country, and otlu-r suhstitiites for liipior such as were named to-day.
There were used hay-rum, hair restoratives and such thinys. I rememher >.ome peojile
drinking from a liottle lahelled " hair restorative/' and the formula given was tincture
iif <antliarides and lead. I forget what it is ealleil. These e.xtracls would sometimes
lie drank as a drink itself, hut ordinarily they were taken after a spree.
;l.'i!llI4. They were sijught I pre.-.uine after all the liijUor had lieen used up .' 'S'es.
The efl'cct of using these compounds during the last si.x or .seven years has heen such
that several men have filed, their deaths heing (hie ilireetly to the use of thos'> li(|uors.
.l.")!)!)."). Ila\e you known anything of the kind of compounds ii.sed since the
license law has come into fore.- .' Since the licen.se law has come into force a great
change has taken ])Iaee. .\ number of men, who were in the haliit of taking lii|Uor, have
stop|ied drinking: in fact, a large numlier of men liave for some ine.xplicalile reason
stopped drinking entirely. ^ly own impression is that they drank to excess hefore for
the reason that men are a|)t to take what is forhidden them. A great many wrvr
deteiiiiined to consume liipior hecause it was forhidden. 1 do not agree in the o]iiiiion
(•\]iressed to-day that the cessation from drinking has heen due to moral and religious
iiillueiices on the community. I lielieve it is hecause liipior is now sold openly in a legal
way. Tiiere is oidy one place here where li(|iior is sold, and 1 do not go there to drink.
Ill fact. I do not take a drink more than once in three or six months, l)ut 1 liaxc gone
to that place on husint'ss once a while, and I ha\c' found \crv little liipior sold. I have
seen •"> or I jilaces running in this town with twice as much sale going on under proliihi-
tioii as there is now under license and open .sale.
.'!.". '.II If). In case of the enactment of a general |>roliihitoi'y law, would you deem it
ii!;lil til. '.I lirewers and distillers should rec(Mve remuneration for their plant and
iiiachiiieiy rendered useless f -That would depend altogether on the conditions on
wliiili they entercMl into the Inisiness. Tf they were given to unileistand that a pmlii-
liitiiiy law might he jiassed and these rights taken away from them, then I do not think
ihey >li(iul(l IxMemunoratod ; hut if not. then I think they should receive some imii-
pi'iisalion.
•"p."i'.M)7. it has heen slated that laws have heen )i,isscd to compel them to ]iul in
iiiiaiu iiiachiiiery for the manufacture of li(|uor, those orders heing issued \i\ n depait-
iiii'iit of the ( ioveinnient ! I am not familiar with tliiM' facts.
.'i.^MlS. .Moreover, the dis! illers are reijuired to kieptheir liijUor for a certain leii;.;ih
lit' I iiiie for purposes of rectiticat ion .' I ai t >ulliciei iy familiar uilli the siiliject ti.
"l" ik on tliat point.
.i.'Dtill. Soil would, ill vour opinion, depi ni on circumstances siirroiindiiig the
iiiile as to whether distillers and hrewers were entit'ed to remuneration or not .'
Vi-..
."i.'i'.lTO. ho you know anything of the use of light >vine. and :iles '. I know the use
"t I'liir per cent heer had a very had elVect in this country. i'or exain)ile : The lii|Uor
».i^ sold here and called cider. It was the vilest trash that was ever invented or com-
liiiiiiided, and the man who houuht it had heen onlv a vear or so in the countrv. ^^fter
... ~ • • •
iliinkiiig s(»me of the stuff, he was arrested for attempted murder. He was charged
afiiivvards with a lighter offence and was fined. He lived in the ciaintry foi' a year or two
■ it'tii w.ii'ds, and his Indiaviour, holli hefore and after the case to which I have referred,
^>ii^ f.iir. and he was a very lespeetahle citizen. I attrihule that incident entirely to
309
!,.
'iil
ii!
;i i '■:
Ml
■ Mi
:1'
i ',
!- ;
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
tlm li(|inir lie (Ir'iuik. llful li*- merely driiiik lieer or li{{ht wine he would liiive been
(Iriiikiii;^ all tin; time, hut he was cured hy that experience.
.■i.")l)71. Can you su;,',Ltest to the Commission any amendments tliat would make the
law moic workable '. — The only su;;L;estion I can oH'ei' is that greater eare should In
tak<
en Ml issuni'' licenses ni <'iaii
itry places. I do not refer to any jiaiticular district or
place, lint the places established for sale of li([uor under the eyes of the Indians should
be well looked after, more so than at present.
")!I7-. Do vou
as to tlie character of the man to whom the li
cense is issued
The trade cannot bt- surrounded bv too many restrictions, and it would be safei
— I es.
to issue no licenses
at all
111 some districts.
B;/ Rer. Dr. M,'L.„d:
:\h\)~t:\. Y(ai think the restrictions are ri^iit
restrictions of the law here are rii;ht.
'es, certainlv, and I believe certai
.'t-")tt7 b .\re the rest;rictions sutlicient ; are they all y(air jiid^iiieiit Nsould sug^iest,
Id to them .' -I would rath<'r refer voii to tliosi? who are mor(^ familiar
or woiilil vou a(
with such matters, the Mounted Police. I have heard some of theirevidence liivcn here
today, and I certainly endorst; what they have said.
.■>."il)7-"). You have said that there is less driiikiiii; per capita since the comiiif^ into
IS before in the Xortli-wcst Territories ? — Si
operation of the license law than tliere wa:
I ha\ e been here.
■■(■")1I7<). How loii<; is that/ — Eleven and a half year.s.
:>-")!t77. Have you observed pretty closely how the license law has been carried
since it came into operation in May? — Yes, here, but I have not been much in the
country.
nee
out
,y-KU
I7S. Y
ou mean
liert
e m the town
Ijilt I have been in some country
places where they are selling, and from all I saw I do not think any abuses have taken
)lace. wi
til the exception of the case of which 1 spoke, and in regard to wliicli v(
careful restrictions should be e.vercised.
.■i-")lt7'.>. You rtifer to sales in tlie \icinity of Indians or the native inhabitants of
the country .' -Yes.
.■i.")!)SO. Y'ou ''(insider li(|Uors are jiarticularly injurious ici them? — Yes.
.■>.")itSI. Do you agree with tiie statement made by ^Ir. Red, the riidian Commis-
sioner, and other otlicials, that e.xtra [irecautioiLS have had to be taken, and recpiire to
be continued, because of the licensing of the sale of drink in the neighbourhood of
nilians aiK
I other.'
.■(."iDSl*. Do vou think the drink trade is
not as dangerous to white men as ti
Tndi
t^iite
I f;
;i.")!tH.'}. I'nder the permit system w.is li(|uor kept away effectually from the Indian
iiu • it w;
y :i
.")."iUm4. Mut it was not kept away as well from the whites '. Xo, I could not sa
was kept away entirely. .Xfy knowledge of the drinking is merely from hearsay, but I
think it is magnilied here as much as down (^ist, if not a great deal more. '
.■J.'iilS.'i. it would seem, then, that prohibition was a iienetit to the Indians in that it
kept li(pi<ir aw ay from them, but that tlie licensing of the trallic is a benefit to the
whites, because under license they would not tlriiik as much as under prohibition .' I
wiaild not put it that way.
.'{51)1^0. Is that a summary of what you lia\'e stated. Ila\(' there been as many imi-
\ ictions since tlu^ License Act came into force as before '. I do not think there has been
any diflereiice.
.'i."i'.IS7. S]ieaking about prohibition, so-called.
was It pro
hibit
1(111 or iiermissiiiii,
taking the Territories as a whole? \'ou could not prexcnt a man drinking if he w.inli
to : it was permission to drink by permit, and it was either a feast or a famiiit
.■{•■)i)88. So the whites in regard to drinking are like the Indians in regard to tlnii'
rations;
.■i."ii)cS!l. Y'ou spoke of illicit places and manufacture ? — Yes, I was told that th
IS seven [ilaces at one tiint
that
\\'!:,LiAM Y.\lm;.\u Macmsi;
the wiiit.'r of 1886-f<7.
310
57 Victoi'ia.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
r saw twii of tlieni.
.'t.")it',IO. Did you know of tluit, or did you only liciir of it !
.'trtOltl, You l)eli('V(! tlit'iv wcro scvon licre /- -Yt^s.
:!.")'.t!»2. Was it had to liaw tln>ni liffe / — Y'es.
.■!.j!l!t."), l)id you inform tiic autlioritics ,' -No.
.'iniCM. What chisscs of pcuplc ;,fot tht'ii' h(|Uor from tliosc |iiaci'« ; wfri- thcv pcopie
who draidc pain-killer and such preparations/ — Yes; some people would drink anvthini;.
.'{r)!l!)."). I understand you have known driid<in;,' peojile eome into the Territories ia
iirder to fict away from lifpior ?- -Yes.
.">r)'J'J(). You do not attri))ute the ehan;,'e that has taken place — for the lietter you
think line at ail to the relij,'ions and temperance inllueiices at work in the country '. --
Not at all ; they nmy have had some ettect. T think that since men can now drink
lei;ally all the li<juor they want, they 'lo nat care so much to ohtain it, and that has
occasioned the chanue.
'.\')\>\)7. So it woulil not he well for tlit^ tem])erance societies and churches to con-
tinue their work and their reforms .'-'reni]ieranc(( societies are doini,' a Lfreat deal of
^'(lod, hut it is a fact that tlu'y are only assistiiii,' in a small way. I cannot concede to
them the marvellous change in the (h'iid'iinir liahits that has taken place here this
siinnner ; I do not heliove it is due to them.
;i59y8. Do you attrihute that to the license system '. 1 attrihute it in a way totlm
le;,'ali/,ation of the tratiic — it is almost phenomenal.
.'i.llliMt. Y'ou think it is incredilile ? — Y''(;s. I know that two or three liave given
up drinking, and they i' i not helong to temperance societies or to any church.
•'tOOOO. You spoKe of some man dying here from the had efl'ect of theli(|Uor hrought
in under permitor snniggled in ? —From the excessive useof deleterious li(|tior,
■'iCiOOl. Did you ever know of peoi)le dying from effects of liipior ohtained froni
pec)ple who were licensed '. — Yes.
•'5000:2. So the death was not attrilnitahle to license tjr non license, lint to the
li(|uor ,' — [t was only attril)utal)le in that case to the had effect of the lifpior ; the
e\f raordinarv luunlier of cases here was due to that cause.
the I'eijresentative;
-Yes.
for this district in the)
JOTfN W. hl-yiTS, M.A.L., of Prim.' .Vlhert. mer.hant, oj. l.eing <luly sworn
deposed as follows: —
/li/ Jndije McDonald :
:'ii>00.'<. I understand you are one of
Leijisiature of the North-west Territories '.-
:'i(i004. How long have you resided in the Territories/ — l"i years.
• liiODlf^ Have you resided all that time in Prince Alhert J — Y''es.
.lI'iOO"). Did you come originally from Ontario? — Y'es.
•"i(iOO<). From what County .' — From the County of Leeds.
• idOOT. When you li\ed tln're, was thei'c a license law in foicc- .' ^'es.
.1 tiw of the counties of the province under the S<'ott Act. I rcmemlier at
Na|ianee or Picton tliey hatl the Duiikin Act in forct; hefore I left.
•'ilJdOS. Then your only experienci* of prohihition is what you ha\e seen in the
Territories .' — Yes.
•')()009. T)uriiig vour resi lence hei't> T suppo.se the permit system was in force up to
May last; -Y^'s.
■ itiOIO. Since then the license law has heen in operation '. ^'es.
■ itiUl i. Are you ahle to expi'ess an opinion as to the working of the present system ?
— Of course I was strongly oppt)sed to the permit .system. T helievi- the results were
not at all satisfactory, and no per.son could he directly charged with the fault. T am
salistied in my own mind that the license law is a henetit from my experience of i* in
other places.
811
ri'ere were
licnnox or
I
tlii t '!
!!!1
Liquor 'I'niftic — iTorth-vvest Territories.
III.
1
I
1 J'
;<60ll.'. Of course it would not he projxT tluit any l)i)(ly sufli as ihis ('uiiniiissidri
should in((uiro into tlio pci-sonal motives of any mpnilici- of tlio r^fiiislatiuc. Imt will you
tell us this; how did iIm^ Note stand in the AHsend)ly in iT;L:aiil to the passing,' of the
license law ; I am not just able to say. I think, speakini; from menioiy, that, with
tiie exception of three or four, every memlier of the As-ieniiily was in favour itf a, lif'cnse
law. The only difference was as to the line tiielaw should take. There weic some whf>
helieved in a jirohihitory law and s(tme were in favoin- of fi'oo tralfic The stand I took
was for hii,'li license and a vei'v strict license law.
•'idol.'), lias the f.e;,'isiatin'e |)assed a law which contains very thorough provisions
for its enforcement '. l''or llie lirst law enacted it was not had. |)urinj,' tliela>.t session of
the As.send)ly several amendments were passed, wliicli ;;ave ;,'reateri)owers to the district
Connnissioners and Ins|(ectors to enforce the law. ()f course it was an oversijjht thai
these ))rovisions were not inserted in the l>ill hefore.
.'{liOl I. i'^'om your e.xpi'rience of the license la\\ , do you consider it prcferahic to
the old system '. Yes, very much so.
:}60l"). Is that your observation as a citizen ( — Yes.
."UiOKi. Will not the present system destroy the tem|)eraiice feeiin;.( .' J do not
think .so ; I think it is steadily growin,:; throughout the country. The licensing of the
tratlic together with the moral iidluences that will lie Itrought to iicai-, and especially
impro\('<l education, will ui'douhtcdly lie the means of considerably reducing the con
suiujition of li(pior.
.'i()0l7. It is your e.vperience that some people when an article is prohibited arc
I'ery apt to use it .' Y'es, I think that is very often the ca.se. [ never had a desire for
a glass of alcoholic li(pior until I cam(.' to this country. I never drank to excess in my
life and I ne\cr had any desire, but when I came htsre and fotnid 1 could not get it, tiieri
I would go round the corner as 4|uickly as any fellow and take a horn.
.■JliOlS. As a citizen of this country you hope that this law will beenforced and will
be a success,' -\ lielieve it will prove a success until such time as this Conniussion can
re]iort fa\(iurably in favour of a Dominion jir.ihibitory law.
.'idOii). I )o you not tind that tiie prohil)itoiv clauses of this license law, the clauses
that ])rohibit sale on Siuiday and during ceiti in hours in the other days of the week,
ciiunnend themsehes to the sentiment of tiie comunuiity ?- 1 think ,';o.
.'?()()l'0. i)oyouthiidc there is such a weight of sentiment in favour of total ])rohi
Itition as there is in favour of those prohibitory clauses of the license law? I lind thr
strong sentiment of the people in the country is in favour of a stringent license law .
.■JtiOl'l. Taking your exjierience and '.lie consideration you have given to those
matters, can you ho[ie for tli" ^"""essful enforcement of a law that has not the general
Jiulk of public sentiment at its back? — No, that is the rea.son why the permit system
failed it had not the su]iport of the )ieople.
;i(j()l.''_'. You no doubt heard what the police otlicers hail tosay about the uiHicldties
they experienced in I'cgard to pv>o])le bringing in liipioi-. They said that their main
ditliculty was due to the fact that the strong sentiment of the })eople was unhappil\
not behind them, assisting them to carry out the law? It is ve)-y ditlicult no doubt tc
.secure conviction in many ca.ses, and this was genoi'ally owing to the fact that the pen
jile's sympathies were rather with \\\o men who violated the law.
■'itlO'JIi. A\'e have ia'ard that violations were in favour with the people of tlic com
nuinity ( -Yes, no doubt of it.
.■{G0l.'4. Have you considered the question of granting comjiensatioii to brewers ami
distillers in the event of the ]iassing of a general prohibitory law, a law pi'ohibitiug tin
manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liipmrs for bext'i'age |mrposes? .My
own opinion is that they sho qlil lie remunerated. They have been compelled by law t<i
put ill cei'taiii machinery, and the law having compelled them to do this, they should he
compen.sated for tiieir loss.
By Hei: Dr. McLeoci :
^('}0'2'>. Will you state brietly what are the benetits of the license law as you have
observed them? I claim that so far as my observation has gone that there is lessdrink-
iug and less drunkenness under the license system.
.ioiiN W. 1*)|;tts.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'idO'Jli. SdiiH' witlii'sscs liinc ti'stilicd tlial tlicic mm'Iiis to lie iiii ilirTi';i>(' .' I iim
only cxiiresNirii; my own npiniiiii. ( )t' courso thi- Cniiimissioii will have llir .N[;ij,'istnitp'.s
ii'|i(iits (if fnn\ i<'t ions.
.'KiOllT. \N'ill (linsc icpnrts slmw llic t';icts ? -It wciiild liardly Kc tail In cciiniiaif the
iwd systems until the next scssiun, wliicli will l)c next .Ijinuiirv. Tlii' rccciid of last year
iinilci' tlif permit system and tlie Mauist rate's re|i()rt tell \ery liein ily against the morality
lit' the |ieo|)le,
;i()l»l!S. Was tlie (|uestiuii of license law or |iiiiliil)i( ion the chief issue at ihel.ist
general election I- I eainiot say. 1 ran as ii striniient license law man and in favour of
a law similar to local option. ' •nc of my opponents ran as a pinhiliit ionist.
:n;i)-_»ll. Was he defeated ^ Ves, he'only polled U votes.
.iCiO.'iO. VVa.s it because he was a prohibitionist? It would not be fair losay that.
.'it)0."il. You would not say that that was the issue? — -No.
.'iIKKSl'. Two of the witnesses ha\c said that it was not an issue : others ha\estate(l
that that issue was forced on the constituencies more or less in certain places but it was
scarcely one of the issues before the country .' So far as my district is concerned that is
a fair way of puttitij^ it. I tried to make it an issue, but I was not altoi,'ether .suceess-
fid. and very many temperance |)eo|)le \oted for me althouj,di they knew I was a license
man. I suppose, however, they felt, as I felt, that a license law would be liefter tiiail
I lie |»ennit system.
lido;?:!, '^'ou consider they were of that i>iiinion '. I ha\e no doubt about it.
."iliO.'U. You think the feelinj; of tlie jieople was ajjainst the late system ? Yes.
.'!(iO:i."). Was it ajjai list the perm it system or aj;ai list prohibition? — Aitainst proliibition.
.'itiO.'ili. They did not like tlie prohibition. To which of the two systems had they
I he ;,'ieater objection ! ■] was simply savin ic that the st ron;,' objection of the ]ieoplc was
111 prohibition.
.■)(ilj;!7. What reason led you t<j that conclusion? — We ai- naturally independent
people here and did not feel very much the inlluenees of the Dominion ( !overnni(!iit,
anil we consider that we have as many iiitellii,'ent (•onstituencies as are to be found in
any other pro\iiice. I consider the [jicense Act of the Territories is siitlicicnt e\ ideiice that
uc i^rasped the responsiiile jiosition we occu|>ie(l in legislatinj; on the ipiestioii of liinior.
."iCiQ.'iS. ])o you think it would have been well to ha\e appealed directly to the peo-
ple to have ascertained theii'willon this (juestioii ! ^'ou mean in the way of a plebi.seite.'
• iliD.'C.t. Yes,' I do not think it would ha\cbeen well. I claim that the peojile
must educate themselves on these i|uestions and thus 1 nal)led to select proper repre-
sentatives, f do not beliexe in holding an eleclioii on e\-ery (|uestiiin on which it is
^iip]iosed that a law must be passed.
•''>t')040. Do you think it would liaxc been well to ha\e had the ((iiesiioii tested at
1 lie ]iolls and representatives selected with special reference to it ( I think it would
liave been as well.
•i'iUn. I understand that, in your o)iiiiioii, undei' the license l,iu tin- liipioi trade
will bo better secured ! — Yes, 1 think so.
■'UiUtL'. Was there non-enfoieement under the old system, or, in ol her w mils, \ iola-
1 inns of the jiermit system ? — There was really \eiy little enforcement .ibout it. You
liail the riirlit under that system of oblainini; a ]ieiniil to import lii|nor fur your own
use, and if you secured a ]ieiniit. you brought it in.
•'iOlJb'i. Then the .system came by and by to lie one iiermillinu the iin])orlalion
ueiierally of foui' per cent beer for sale ? — I think that lessened coiisumiition of stroiiir
lii|iiiir, althouifh i was ne\er of the opinion ihal it was a wise step to take. I may say,
liii\ve\('r, that it did lessen the coiisuni|>tioii of stroin.' liijuor.
• itUlll. I )o you think a measure of prohibition sudi as was had here, with ]iermits
included, may be rei,'ar(h'd as a test of the reliability of jirohibit ion ! Yes. I do nut,
liMucver, believe in loeal prohibitory laws.
•liiOl."). Doyou beliexe in a national prohibitory law ! -Yes : I bcliexeit isjiossible
111 c.u'fy out such a law.
•if')(JK». I )o you bi'lieve that it wiiuld be possible to c.irry out .i national prohibitory
1.1 w ' r do.
ill
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Li(iuor Traffic — North-west Territories.
;ifi()l7. < )t' inilisc ynii lii'lic^c llial it' tlicic was iMit'iirct-ini'iit nf surli a law, it wniild
III' lit'iii'licial ' I lii'iicM' it wimld lie liiMii'Hi'ial to tlic rniiiiti'V,
III/ Jiuhjf McDditiild :
.'itilltS. Tfow (III ytwi |ir(i|iii.sr tip I'lit'iifct' ifctii'i'ul piuliiliit inn ; nr liavcyim rimsiili'icil
the (itli'stiuii at all '. Nn, I iiavi' nut i-iiiisidrrcil it at all. I tliiiiiv the < IiiM'liiiiH'iit sliuulil
I'olisitli'i' till' i|iii'stiiiii.
.'HiOl'.l. Till' (illici'i's lit' till' .Miiuiilt'd I'lilicr havi' >|iipkrii nf tin' laru'r iiiiaiititii's ut'
lii|U(ji' simi;;jilt'(l into the Territorii's tVotn tlio I'tiittul States and liiixf ti'stilicd that tlicy
t'oiind it iin|)iissil)lt' to kccji sncli liinioi' out. '("akin;; tin- vast i-xti'iit of (liis nmnti'v tVoin
till' Atlantif to till' I'aiilii' and tlir coast lini' ot' tliis I toniiiiion, I ask w lii'l li'.T you lia\r
ever considered seriously tin- i|Ui'sti(iM of kcepini,' liijuor out of this roniitry ,' If it uoiild
he u liiMieiit to the couiitiy, keep it out, let thi^ exiiense In; w hat it limy.
.'itiontj. In on h.T to curry .sucli a liiw and enforcH it successfully, would you need a
|irej)iiiideraiu'i' of sentinieiit in favour of it f Do you mean a preponderance of sen tin lei it
to enforce the law f
.'iCiO'il. Do you think the prepondeiiince of sentiment in favour of such a la« is so
jireat as would eiialile you to enforce it .'— Ves, my o]iinioii is liased'oii the assumption
that there is in the ]><iiiiini(>ri of Canada a striiii<{ sentiment in favour of prohiliition.
'M\0')'l. If that sentiment exists, you think it should lie crystalli/ed into an Act of
I'arliainent f — The ( Jovernmeiit should not hesitate to enact such a law and lind meaii^
to enforce it.
3t)0.');{. What means would you suj;;;est in the North-west Territory other than
those you liiive had i' -If licjuor is not manufactured in the country the ditlieulty of
aft'urdinsi ]iri>toction against siniii;i,dinif would not he so yreat as now.
IHiO.'il. What other dilticulty ajiplies near the lioundary ? The ditliculty of private
distillation is one that has had to lie fiiuj;ht in the old country, and some means should
he lirought to hear here as well as there.
:{(iO")."). r suppose you have considered ])r,ict icallv the details .' No.
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THOMAS McKAY, .M.L.A.. of I'rince AHiert. farmer, on lieing duly sworn,
deposed as follows :
Hi/ Jilili/r McDiilKllil :
;5G0."i(i. I understand you are a meinlier of the Legislative As-^emlllv of the North
west Tei-ritories '! — -Yes : I am a rejire.sentative of Cumli(M'land.
■iCiO.")?. Were you a memlier of the last Letfislatuie '. No.
.'Ui0.")8. How lonj,' have you lived in the Territories; I was liorn in the Territoric-
aiul have lived here ever since.
.'iCiU")!). LSefore the pcMiuit system came into force what .system was in force wit li
regard to the sale of liquor / — There was free trade in the country.
.'{(iOdO. Then there was no license law in force '. -No : not at all events in the
Noi'th-vvest Territories.
."iCiOdl. AN'ere there no regulations under the Hudson ISay Company.'- The Com
pany did not regulate it. The Indian.s came in large parties and stayed around the
forts oft»;n tVir a year, and endeavoured to get all the liijuor they could. After that tin-
Indians would go to the hunting grounds.
.'JtjOtii!. Among the white peo]ile was there free sale ; -Yes.
.'{(iOti.S. Were there j)lai;es where liquor was sold .' The Company would not sell \><
those who made a bad use of it.
.■UiOlU. I believe the Hudson I'ay Company stopped the sale of liquor in IST).!. lfo\^
did the peojile'get liquor after that .'—-My traders.
.I<»H\ W. J5i;tts.
•.\u
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.illlMi."). W'liiil kind (if lii|ii(ir w/is sdid ' (iund, luid and iiidill'cit'iit, a ijnud ileal nt'
llic pKuicr (nialitifs.
."i(i()()('). Was tlifrt' lint a lii|iiur call.il tlic ('ciiii|iaiiy's riiiii .' Iliidsmi l>a\ iiiiii.
.")(i(Mi7. Wert' (lie |i('ii|il(' in llnisc davs .sulicr |M'i)|i|r .' ^'cs ; llicri' wa-. iml a t{iral
(leal lit' drimkt'iiiit'ss.
.'iiilK'iS, At'tiT I 111' 'i'l'irilDiii's caiiii' iindi'i' tlif ciiiitinl of Canada, we iiiidristaiid
lii|iuir iMiuld 1)1' liad under permit .' The liijiii'i liad In lie ;,'(it tVitiii t he Ciiniiiaiiy s siuies,
and it tniik a lull}; time to nlitaiii it. 'Ilie ( 'iiiii|)aiiy's nltieei's emiid mily inaUe a trip
iiiiee a year tu j,'et a Mi|iply, and the supply uinild nut last a year.
.'itiOti',*, What ilass iit' people w ere selliiii,' at that lime, were they |iedl IIS .' ^'e.s.
.'(Ii(»7l). 'I'hey would peddle other ;,'oods, I suppose, as Well ;is liijiiorf Ves, hut
siiine had liipior only those in this part nt' the Tenititries. All aloiij; here and near
^'lll■k l''aclory they dealt in liipior exclusivuly.
.'i')('7l. 'riieii we understand the permit system eaine into force. I>iil \ou see the
woikin;; of it ! Yes.
•'ttiU'l!. I)id you lind it work salisfailoiily '. No. not \ery.
^ItlU".!. l>id you hear the evidence of the .Mounted Police uiveii liefiire ihe ('omiiiis-
simi today .' -No.
•"itiOTI. Then you do nut know the extent of the dilliculties with which they had to
lonleiid ill i'e;;ard tu the siiiUL;i,diu}; iif liipmr into t he 'I'erritories ,' I do not kiiou of
I hem. hut I was in the country hefore I hem and have seen the matter tor myself.
.'il'iU""'. I >o you refer to the siiiu;,';,'lin;,' ? Yes.
.'(tlOTt). Latterly of i'uui'sesnui;;j;liii;,' increased, and the permit .system liecameafailiire.
Ii has heen su<;j;ested that the increased issue of |ieriiiits was owin;; to the i|uantity of
siiiuj.'j,'led liipiur that came fruiii the I'nited States and that it was thuu,<{ht hetter to
increase the i|uaiitily of liipior l)ruin;lit in under jiermit and have it uf it hetter class;
a'l'i that as people came into the Territories they olijected to the law liecaiise they had
Iways heen accustoiiied to ha\inij; all the liipior they wanteil. The people were not
accustomed to have liipior in the Territories.
.'iliUTT. >So it was really an arraiii;eiiit'nt to meet the popular demand .' Yes.
;)()()7f<. A\'e understand that the North-west Lciiislature at its last session passed a
license law. Ila\e \ ou ul)ser\ed its wiirkinij since it came intu force.' Nut very much.
.','i()7'.i. Have yuu ul)scr\ed the uperatioii of the law, and in yuur upinion does it
Work very wcill t- ^'es.
.'!(i()f<(). Are there any siiif;;estiuns you can otl'er to the Comiiiission with respecl to
aiiieiidments of tiie law '. Ni>, not so far as the North-west .\ct is concerned : we have
UMile what amendments are considered necessary.
.'itiOSl. Have you considered tht> (|uestiun ni yrantini; remiineratiun to hrewers and
iljstillcrs in case uf the onactnuuit of a jieneral jiroiiiliitory law, for their ]ilaiit anil
machinery rendered useless,' I have never j,'i\en that (]UPstion any coiiMderat ion. except
ill a general wav.
."iliOSi;. You liaxe had no licenses here. I understand .' I liclieve all lcu;.ili/.ed
lircwers should receixe compensation, hut I ha\e nex'er LCone into that i|uestioii.
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Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
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JAMES P. A. STl'LL, of Prince Alboit, tciulior m.kI Clerk of tlip Municipality,
on lu'ing liiily sworn, ileposed as folio\v.■^ : —
Bt/ Jmlye McDonald : '
;^()08.'i. How lont^ nave you li\c(] in tiie Nortii-wt'st Territories? — I have lived here
ince July, 18f<5.
;<60S4. Have you lived any where else in the Tei- '.tories besides Prince Albert .' — Xn,
SGOS."). l)i(l y(ju come herefrom Ontario?---! came here direct from -Manitoba, l)ut
frcjm Ontario formerly.
;i()08('>. From what county did you come ? — From Wellington.
36087. How long is it since you left Ontario? —10.1, years.
,'$0088. In those days was there a license law in force? — Yes.
;>i)08!t. Have you had any e.vpericnce of ;'. pi'ohibitoi'v law anywhere else than in
the Territories ?- - No.
;'iG090. What has been your exijerience as to the success of the law as it was
carried out? — It was not a success as it was woi'ked.
;)(10!tl. That was under the pern)it system ? Yes.
.■{()0l)2. Have yoif observed the operation of the license law since it come into force?
—Yes.
.'<t)09;l. How have you found it work ? -It is worse than the permit system.
.■i()0!) 1. In what way ! In regard to drinking. There have been more tines under this
sys-^em than before.
I)()0!)">. Do you mean within a corres]>oiKling length of time? — Yes.
;i(i0iK). Have you the record made up to sliow that? There were two persons
fined in 18.S9 foi- drunkenness, one in 18'.(U, tliei'e were f lur p-'r.sons liiy>d in 1891 and
one in 1S92 pi'ior to the Lst of May, and there base iieen fifteen since.
;i(>()97. 1 )oes the town ri'ceive a re\('nue under the license law ? The town receives
the tines.
.■i(i()9S. 1 »oes tl'c town receive any [iroporliou of the lieense fees ? Ves, they recei\ e
fees for licenses for the hot(>l and wholesale establishments, .>? 17-") foi' each license,
making §.")•_'•").
.■!(i()99. Have not all the persons who haxelieen fined been wnal ai'c called repeaters .'
— I think on. or two were.
.MilOO. Have you anything to do with the iaspection of licenses .' No.
,'U)101. H; .; the general order of the community been atlected by the change in tin-
law? — I think it has lieen vovy nuich.
.■i()10"_'. Is that according to your observation ? -Yes.
.'U)10:5. Have you consiik're ' the (piestion of prohibition? Yes.
;56104. In case of the enactment of a geneial prohibitory law, would you fa\"our
the granting of compensation to brewers and distillers for lo.ss of jilant and machineiy .'
— No. unless the distillers and bi'ewers would also place agairst it the loss occasioned to
hundreds of families by di'ink.
;)()1 (),"). You would lia\e the accounts bidanced, 1 suppose? — ^'us.
."idlOfi. ^'ou tlesire to considei both sidi>s? Yes,
•U)107. And, as the l)alance shows, so you would ha\e the demand met? — Yes.
.'U)1U8. Taking the license system as you ha\e found it and seen it in operation,
have you any amendments to s,,ggest ? — No, anil 1 am not in favour of a license law.
/)'// A'-r. Dr. Mr /.rod:
3G109. 1 think you said tliat tlie order of the town had been atleciiMl by the enaci-
nient of the license hiw? Yes, by dri!d\ing.
.■itillO. V'ou think disord(>rs lia\e increased ! —Yes. I thiid<, houe\ cr, that so i'ai
as the townspeople tl'eiMselves are concer'nt<il, there has been a urcat <'hange of late
years; a great many of the jieople belong to the l{oyal Templars and are against the
licensing of the drinking Made in the town. As regards jx'ople outside of the town. 1
may say that I have kni .vn people come here who were not in the habit of taking li(|uor
previously, but who now take two or thrci' gla "s.
•Iamks p. a. Srt I.I..
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67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
n,/ .J,nl(j>' MrDn,„i/,{:
•Sfilll. Was tlio tnjuiilt' with lliosii who eaiin' in tVoiii outside .' — Yes.
■■50112. Were tliey white men or Halt-breeds? — .Some ov them were HaU-ljift'ds.
.■{(il i.'i. Were t!iei-e aiiv full Indians '. No. I think thev were ill Half hteeds. .
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Vkni-uahi.k .V!{CHDKAC()N McK AY, ot Prince Aihei-t, Clerk in Holy Onlers
and Airlideacon of Saskatchewan, on heing duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
Jii/ Judy Mr/)tiiiitl(l :
.".1)111. How loni; lta\'e yt)U resided here? — 1 was horn in the Northwest Tcrri
tiii'ies.
."Uill-"". How loiia ha^e you resided in Prince Albert ? — Since ISST. F came her(>
six ve.'irs |ire\ioU'<ly and was then here for two years.
liOllt). Then you have seen the workinj; of the permit system in the North-w e.st
Territories. I )id you notice whether it had the etl'ect of prohiliitin^' the use of strong
drinks us beverages .'--To a certain e.xtent. 3Ey experience has iieon chiefly with the
Indians, and my work has been chiefly among them. The system certainly kept li<|Uor
from the Indians.
.'iGl 17. Have you seen anything of the operation of the new law since it came into
force /--I have bcvui among the Indians a goo<l deal.
.'{(illt*. Do ycm know whether the Indians obtain more liijuor now than they did
under the old system ! — I have not seen any instances, and have not received any reli-
able information with respect to tht>ir getting li(|Uor. The only reliabt'.' information I
lia\(' come across was about their getting li(pior or getting liipior brought to them. I
WIS for a few weeks among the Indians on a reserve. .An Indian in whom I have great
confidence uild me that liipior had been brought on th:>< reserve. The li(|Uor had been
lirought there by men who were traders, aiul there was a lot of drinking going on.
."Ull 19. As a citiziMi of Priiu'e .\ll)ert, Ivtvi' you luiticed any change in the habits of
tlie people since the new law came into force? -I am luit very much in the town and 1
cannot speak from my own oliserxation as to tiie change generally, but I can .say this,
that I have seen more drunkeiuu'ss since the license! law came into force than I ever saw
before within the sanu' time during my visits to Prince Albert. 1 am iiere occasionally
on business, I repeat that I have seen more drunkenness on the streets than I ever
Siiw before.
.'iiilJO. hid you see under the permit system, men an<l tiieir friends dbtaininu liipior
under a permit and sitting down together and drinking r.itil tiie whoh' (|uaiitity was
ciiiisumed ? - i have not seen thai, but no doubt that statement is (pnte correct.
•'h)l'_M. Have y(jii had .iiiv opportunity of forming an opiniiiii of the charact(U' iif
ihili<|Uor that came in during the time that l,i\\ was enforced? -I )rdy from hearsav. 1
.nil .1 total abstainer and never taste li(|Uor ; luit f have heard statements to that etl'eet
•Iti 1 ■_'!.'. Did you hear statements , IS to the fdu! cunipounils used? Yes. I hiive
lie.ird statements that a great denl nf very pour lieuor vv.i:. brmigln in, but my impres-
-ieii was that the poor licpior brought in was gener;illy smuggled liipior, while theli(|iioi-
lii'iuglii ill under ])ermit was as good lii|uor ;is is usually .sold.
/)'// /or. Dr. Mrl..nd:
• KiIl'.'). What is viiiir \ leu almut prohibition .' My view about pidliiliitinn i-^, that
il Would be a very good thing, if it could be enforeed.
"ililllt. I )o you tltiuk it could lie enforce<l i— 1 am afr.iid it would We a viiy ditll-
cult matter in a country like this. I think if every elFort wis made, it' a-^ go id elloris
vM'ie made as are made to enforce other laws, a prohibitory law coidd be enforced.
■it'iPJo. Do you think national i>rolnbitioii would be
ilie moral sentiment of the countrv vvas in favour of it.
an
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a good thing? — Yes, , do, if
A prohibitory l;iw eoi id not
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Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
be carried out unless that was the i^ase. l'n(loul)te(lly i^ruhiliition would be a good
tiling, if it could be carried uut.
Jti/ Judijf Mrlhiiiidd :
■ 36126. You have the voice ot' the I lenplc speaking thi'ough their i'epreseiitati\es in
the Legislature that enacted this law which has been in force in the North-west Territo-
ri'-S a nund)er of years ? -Yes.
•'56127. 1 undei'stand you did not find it a success, and it coulil not be enforced? —
Y''ou mean the jterniit system.
.'56128. Yes. — No, it was not a success.
.'56129. Do you tliink it would have been successful if there had been more ]>ul)lic
sentiment in favour of it : wouki you not re([uire to iia\e.such weight of public sentiment
as would make it clear that the law must be observed .'—1 should certaiidy juilge that
the success of a prohibitoiy law must dei)end on the amount, so to speak, of jiublic
sentiuHMit at the back of it.
.■561.'{U. It is found in regard to the license law that theprohil)itory clauses forbid-
ding sale on Sundays and in certain hours on week ilays, coimnend themselves to the
whole connnunity .' Yes.
.■i61;51. 8() if the olticials look after the observance? of the law, they can secure its
proper enfonenient, foi' nobody would object to its enforcement. Have you considered
that (juestion in connection with the subject of prohibition. Do you not think that
you would have to obtain such a weight of sentiment in favoui' of prohibition as would
lead to the practical enforcement of it .' — Yes, I should jufige so. A |ii'ohibitorv law
^vould l)e mori> or less successfully carried out according to the amount of public senti-
ment in its favour.
.■{61.']2. We must take the country from ocean to ocean. .Su]ipose we had the
Mai'itime Provinces strongly in favour of prohibition, (Quebec against it, Ontario unde-
cided, Manitoba strongly in favour and liritish Columbia sti'ongly against it, would
you hope to sf.-cuic its success in those sections opposed to prohibition, or to enforce it
as strictly .as you would liojic to do in this pro\ince where puMic ojiiiiion was strongK
in its favour,' — It would be more likely to be observed if there was pi'oiiibition iill o\cr
the Dominion than if there was ijrohibiticm in one section of the country.
.■!6I."5.'5. Would vou not find it more easy to enforce nroiiihition in I
where the sentiment is stronulv in its fa\inir than in tin
timent was stronith ayainst it
>ro\ uices wnen
IJniloubtedlv. l>ut I would consider it wo
us pro
]>ul)lic
uld be c
to enforce it in those pi'ovinces wlieri' the sentiment was against it if there was a general
prohibitory law for tli(> whole Dominion, bec.iu.se I <|uite .agree with what I heard one
of the witnes.ses say, I tliink it was 'Sir. ]>etts, that the feeling of a yood many people
in the Tei'i'itories was that they were i-estricted in icgard to tlie sale of iii|Uor, uhieli
was allowed ni I'tlier j>laei
d t
ie\- rehel
d
an'ainst lieini,' treated dill'erentlv froi
tl
leir nei
'hi
JOUl'S.
.'56i;51. That .sentiment, led, of course, t
o non ol)servance
it the
I J a certain extent at li-ast.
th
tional
.'5<)1.'^-"). In ease of the enaetnient of a general prohibitory lav
il>
1 thii
v<ai fiuoui
■anting of com]iensalion to brewers .md distillers for t lu'ir loss of plant f Ivxi
cases would no douot ilemanii exceptional treatment, out looking at the c|iiestioii
from a general standpoint, I should not think they were entitled to any remuneration.
If they couKl show that exceptional expenses had been incurred liy them, that would
undoublediv call for consideration.
Venbkable AKCnr>KAt'oN MoKav.
318
57 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) A. 1894
PETER ROBERTSON, of Prince Alheit, Cliief of Police, leciillwl.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod .-
.'ifil.SG. Have you tile records of tlie arrests ? — I have tlie record of arrests since
lilt' license system came into force.
:J()l;57. Have you the record of arrests previously? — Yes.
.'i()l."?<S. Will you furnish the Commission with such a statement ? — The statement
is as follows ; —
.Statement of arrests made in the Town of Prince Albert, 2>.W.T., between tiie 1st
of ?' ',y and the 1st of November, 18'ji*.
Drunk and disorderly 27
Fui'ious riding or driving; I
Selling li((Uor without license 2
Total arrests .").■>
ANDREW WESTWOOD, of Prince Albert, hotel clerk, on being duly sworn,
(l('|)used as follows :
Jii/ Jiid;/e McDonald :
;i(il.")0. What is your business or occupation ? — lam Clei'k of the (.^lucen's Hotel
iicre.
.■?()14(). How long have you resided in the Noi'th-west Territories ? — About is yeai's,
.Sdlll. Hid you come liere fi'mnoneof tlie otliei provinces v j-'rom tlicold c<iuntry,
fruiii Scotland.
;i(J142. To what i)oint in the Territories did you conic tiist ! 1 (list joined th(^
Ncirtli-west Mounted I'olice.
.")(il (I). Where did yi)U join that force ? — .Vt Lundoii, Ontaiio.
;>lil4l. in what ]iortion of the Xoi'th-wcst Tt'riitori"s were you stationed? -.\11
i)\t'r. At Maclfod, Calgary, Edmonton, Wood .Mountain, and at every point all over
tlic VI UMtry, ])i'iiu'ipally near the boundary.
•'ItUJ"). Of course vou had some experience in the working of the pciinit svsteni? —
Yr>.
iilllMi. It was part of your duty, I suppose, to look after tiie enfort'ciiient of the
law '. Yes, in those days jieruiits were gi\i'n by the police ollicers.
• )<il47. What were tlie reijuisites of t he peisons lo wlioui jperniits weie issue(l ? -
Tiiey eoidd get li(|Uor easily.
.'iill IS. J'\)i' what i|uautities were permits given ' - They were given for from two to
len gallons in those days.
•'Itill',). From what point was the liipior binught .' Principally from tlie ot hi r side
iif the line, niaitdy from I'^ort Renton, on ,!ie .\ii:eriean side.
■I'll.-iU. \\'hat was the character of the lii|Uor (liat rairie in .' It was alcoliol prin-
cipally.
•">(il")l. Was it of gcMul ipiality .' 1 could not say it was \ery good ; in my opinion
il was very j)ooi' stuil', that would make a man sick after drinking it.
.")<)l-')2. Jlad you any e.vperienee of li([uor smuggling? -Yes ; large c|uantities were
siiuiggled in in those days.
."illlo.'i. In what shape (-In all kinds of shapes.
."'til.")!. Please state in what kind of packages? — Tt was done up the same as canned
iViiil. with labels on the cans.
.")l)l ")."), Was it .se:ih' ' up ? — Yes, just the same as caimed fi'uit. After tlu^ railway
'Hiiie in, I have seen it shipped iiv tin bo.ves made to represent Holy IJibles.
ol'.t
.
U- ^3
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories.
.'!(■)]•"<('). Was it brouglit in in any utlicr foi-ni ()?i tli<? trains .' I iiaveseen it shipped
as bottles of fi'uit and as pickles and preserves.
.■5(')li")7. Did you ever find it in any other packajjes ? — Yes, I have seen it shipped in
as four i)er eeiit beer, and also as sugar and salt. It was brouifht in in all kinds ot'
packages of luerchandise.
:U)1.")H. We have also had it in e\ idenoe that spirituous li(|Uors were brought in as
temperance beverages. Was that the case ? — Yes.
.'i()l.")9. And also that consignments would be shi[)ped to persons who did not use
intoxicating li(|Uors? I have noticed such cases.
.■JdllJO. In discharge of your duties did you have to go among the fndians and Half-
breeds ?- I was among the Indians a good deal.
3()1()1. How did you find the system operate as regards them/- In tho.se days 1
have seen them frequently in a state of intoxicati(jn, not from whisky but from essences
and pain-killer and other compounds.
;?()1G2. Did the Indians use pain-killer? — I have fre(|uently seen ))eoi)le take sonic
black tea and half a dozen plugs <if tobacco and a few bottles of pain-killer and some
essences and mix them together and drink the compound hot. It made a kind of toddy.
.'iG16-'<. What was the effect on the individuals? — They would keep on. diiuking
until they dropped out, and th(!y would get half wild.
.■ir)l()4. Did you ever know of eau de Cologne and hair restoratives being used as
drinks ?-Y'es, almost everything has been drunk in the Territories.
3610;"). We have had it in evidence at llegina that even red ink was used ? — I think
I have seen almo.st everything used, sweet spirits of nitre, sulphuric ether, Dr. Thomas's
oil and almost every li(|uid that was ever put in bottles.
S.*;! *')(■). Were th- ^.e li(|uids "«ed by white men as well as by Indians? — Yes.
.361(17. Do you know whether cases of li(|uor were cached along the border? — Nn,
I have never found any. I ha\e found liquor cached near the boi'der ; holes would he
dug out and the liquor put in. I have also found it at the back of stables among manure
piles.
.36168. So all kinds of li(|Uors were brought in? — Yes.
36169. And at this time the permit .system was in force, we understand ?—^ Yes.
36170. When did you leave the police force ? — 1 left the force at Wood ^lountuin
in 1888.
36171. Since that time you have been living in the Territories? — Yes.
36172. Have you as a citizen obsei-ved the t)peration of the law ' — Yes.
.36173. l)id you find li(|Uor sold and used? — Yes.
.3617 1. And did you find the people using those compounds? — Xo\ so much of laie
years.
] )id you st>c the four per cent beer in use f- -No. 1 have iujt seen much 'it'
Ha\t' you oi)S(M\<'d the operation of the present license system 1 — Y'es.
I understand you are in ciiai-ge of the hotel that is licensed? — Yes.
Who has the license? — Mr. Oram, the pr(.i)rietor f)f the house.
Since ]\Iay 1st the Territories have been under a license system? — Y'^es.
Have you found any <litliculty in preserving good ordei' in the house
;!6l7r).
that.
:!6I76.
3(n77.
.".617^.
36179.
36180.
-No.
36181. Have you, as a citizen, consideretl that ihere has been an increase of diink
iiig in the community? — T do not think so, because in the old days when people got per-
mits and liipior was brought in illicitly, the people, when drunk, kept out of the way.
.31)1 8l'. So you think tliere is moi-e drunkenness obsei'vable but no more in leality .'
— I do not think there! is any more.
.3618.3-4. When tli(> permit .system was in force, did you ol)ser\c that when ntcn l:"I
permits all their friends would gathei' and they would drink tin; li(|Uor when it nrri\e.l
until it was all consumed ? — ^'es, I joined in that many times myself.
.361. *<."). Does that kind of thing go on now ? — No. Since the license law has cnine
into foi'ce 1 do not think I ha\-e drank o\er oO glasses of liquor. Mefoi'e that linn' 1
would be with the boys when licjuor was brought in.
AM)iii:w Wi;sTwooi>.
320
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
:i()l>S(i. When you were with the police, did you consider that the force earnestly
endeavoui'ed to carry out the provisions of the law and stop as far as possible all ]i(iuor
cominj; into the Territories',' -Yes. We had |)arties out all the time.
.'{(■) 187. Jlave you had anything to do with the Indians since the new law came
into force? — No.
;5()1S8. Are there many Indians near here? — There are (|uite a few across the
river.
By Rev. Dr. AIcLeod:
.'56189. Were you connected with the hotel before ^lay 1st? — Yes.
.SfilDO. And you sell the liquoi' ?--Yes.
.")(') 1!)1. You arc clerk if ''•e hotel, 1 suppo.se? — Yes, and attend to the bar. T am
in charge of the whole hoi, ...
Jiij Judge JfcDoiKild :
IM) l92-:{. Has there been, within your knowledge, sale to Half-breeds since the license
law ? — There are very few Half-breeds here, taking my experience of the house, >vlio l)uy
liquor.
.'UilUk You think compounds were used both by Indians and by Half-breetls ? — Yes.
M()195. Did you hear of white men making up thos<; drinks? — Yes.
Jiy Ner. Dr. Mch'od:
'M\\W\. Your hotel is the only retail licensed place in the town ? — Yes.
3f)197. Are the provisions of the license law well ob.served by you? — I think they
are.
31)198. That is your belief as manager of the hotel ?- Yes.
36199. There is no .sale after hours or on Sundays ? — When 1 am there, I generally
(.lose pretty promjitly, often, indeed, we close before the regular hour.
te;!l
.
1
'
:r-, 1
■1
t''
t
■i
i' t
1
I
i
.■■ ■ !
.11!
1
!
es.
iiucli "I
liou-^
(f dnnl-
. got l»i
|(' wiiy.
nsiiit\
It ani\''
tini''
Miss lil'CY M. IJAKEH, of Priuci- Albert, on being duly sworn, deposed as
fiilliiws ; —
By Jiidije McDonald :
36l'00. What is your occupation '. — I ha\e been a missionary teaelier for several
years in connection with the Presbyterian Chm'ch.
•'ii'iL'Ol. "\\'hat are tin? duties of your position !- At present I am teailiing. We
lia\f opened a school for the Siou.x I ndians across the rixer. It has only lately been
npeiied.
3(i2U"J. Is it a school for both secular and re'igious instruction '. Yes.
.'l(>L'0:i. Is it for boys and girls .'—Yes.
•36204. How many pujiils have you f -Alxput L't) o'l the roll ; there is an average of
I'liir II. There are several young men who attend wIiimi they have ni> work ; tiiev are
^iiy much interested, and come to school regularly when they are nut working. The
irsi are young children.
3(iL'0.''). l)(i you find them i|uick to learn ? — 1 never taugiit pu|)ils who were mure so.
• ii'iL'tX). How are they as to habits : ,ire they well b(>haved ! 'IMiey are beginning
til lie su. The young men behave exceetlingly well.
• i(')'Ji)7. lUit the children art> more ditiicult to manage, 1 suj)p(ise ?- -Yes.
3liL'0.'S. Have you .seen any special results as to the working of the li(|uor law in this
iiiiiiiiuinity ? — I have been here 1.3 years.
36209. So the permit system has b(>en in force since you have been here .' ^'es.
36210. How did you tind it work .' NMii'ii I first came here young men «ereiM the
liiiliit, as some other witnesses have stated, of getting together and drinking liipinr that
liiul been brought in ; ("specially as they could not get anv mori,' for a while.
321
2 1 ■' I ■*"*
;i
1 1
H'
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories,
'M'2l I. Did the Indians get liquor? — They have not got it as yet.
^^6212. And I supjM)se tliey did not get it in those days? Not to my knowledge.
.'U)21.'l. You think, I presume, that it is must desirable to keep it awayfi-oni them ?
— Yes. Of course I do not know how liijuor affects white peojilo particularly, but it has
a most disastrous effect on Indians. The temperance societies are working together
now, and they must have the credit of placing this town in a ))etter position than it
formerly occupied. The permit system was practically prohibition to the Indians.
."{(ili 1 4. Hasthere been up to thistimeany very mai-ked change in the Indians ? — ^I have
seen acts done by the Half-breeds that I did not like to see. We have taught Treaty
Indians who come to school. Until a yeai' and a half ago they never saw people get
li(juor ; but since the license .system lias come into force I have seen some of those young
treaty Indians drinking.
.■{fi'JI "). They are full Indians, I suppose? — I do not know. I spoke tt> one of them,
and he said he was a non-Ti'eaty Indian.
."Ul^lO. So y(tu are afraid iis to the results as regards the Indians of the present
license system ? -I would be afraid of their associating with the Crees. I heard of some
going to the Crees' houses and .spending the evening with them. One was a young man
who came to the .school.
.'50217. Do they speak English? -They tire learning it.
3G218. Did you come fn>m one of the other Provinces originally ?— Yes, from
Huntingdon, Quebec.
.'?()211). Have you found that a great change has taken place in the habits of the
people as compared with forniei- year.s? - Yes.
."{6220. Have those changes bee nie more marked every year? — Yes.
fii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod:
36221. T understand that vou have been engaged \'.\ years on mission work.'
—Yes.
.S()222. In this vicinity? — Yes.
.SG22."'>. You lia\e reason to fear from what you have seen since the license systeni
has come into force, that the Indians may be led astray? -I have great fear of it.
During one year and a half before the license .system 1 never met a drunken Treiity
Indian or low Half-breed ; but I have met them coming and going since then. I diii
not liki> their condition.
3G22I. You say that jtrohibition under the permit system did prohibit ?- Yes, so
far as tlu^ Indians wei-e concerned. I think classes of people are getting liqun> now
who did not get it before.
.'Ui22r). Have you, as a teacher and having the interests of the comnmnity at heart,
considered the t|uestioH of prohibition in a wider way than for. erly? I think I \\;\\r.
.■?()22<). Wli.'it is tlie conclusion at which you have arrived ? Is 't that prohibit inii
would !)(' of advantage to the country at larger? T think it would be. I believe we
would be able to inlluenvt' the minds of the yourig to favour total abstinence.
.■ii)227. You believe in moral suasion, I suj)pose? Yes.
.'5t)22S. Do you believe that your use of moral iiiHuences wt)ultl bi^ greatly aidi'd
bv a prohibitory law? ] think so, most assuredly. The Treaty Indians cannot, nt
course, buy liijuor. Two <if those boys who came to school and an Indian got drunk mi
this side of the riv<'r. I desired to have one of the young men take me to the place viIuti'
they had obtained the liiptor. I told them in Sioux that if it were known who hadgi\fii
tiiem tlie ti(|uor, there would be a severe jmnishment inllicted, and that they nnist iint
follow such jinictices or they would be loi-ked uj). The man to whom I spoke undeisl'""!
t.liis, and although he was very drunk and could not stand, he saiil, "I am .i non-Ticity
Indian.''
.'U)22Sf(. Then he could exercise his jiersoiuil liberty by getting drunk ? — Yes.
.'?022!>. Can any non-Treaty Indian get drink ? -I do not know. He used ilwi
expression, and .said that no person had given it to him.
.■{(}2.'U). As to the Half-breeds, is it not a fact that unless they bring tlieinscbcs
within the provisions of the law by Incoming Treaty Indians, they can have the s.iiiie
Miss Lucy M. Bakeh.
322
ivr \<i it.
Treaty
1 (li'l
Yes, s..
1(1' now
at lii'iut,
1 hiivr,
oliihitiiiii
t'lievc wi'
tly ai<li'ii
•iiiuiot. "t
drunk on
I'licrt'
it
Ihiid i-'i^
Hist 1
luli'fst 1
■Tiv.ity
lused ill'"
Ihcnisfl^''^
the same
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liiivilegeH as other citizens ?— The Halt'-l)reeds will <^et the li(iu()r and give it to the non-
Treaty Imhans, and the non-Treaty Indians will give it to Indians.
.■{62;51. Under the old system the Half-hreeds could not get linuur easily, I siipjH)se'?
— No, I never saw any of them drunk before.
THOMAS O. DAVIS, of Prince Albert, merchant, on being duly sworn, ileposed
as follows ; —
Jiij Judge Jfr Donald:
'.\62'-i'2. How long have you resided in Prince Albert I 12 years.
.■U)2;{:5. Have you resided anywhere else in tlie Territories than in Prince Albert ? —
No, but I have resided in Manitoba.
.■}()2.'i 1. How long did you reside there ! About one year.
'Mi'2'M). Did you come here from one of the other provinces '. — Fiom the Province of
(Quebec, from Iberville, close to Montreal.
.■<62."5(). You have some expeiienct^ of the working of the permit .system in the
N'orth- west Territories, I presume? — Yes.
■\G'2'M. Have you ob.served the working of the license law since May? -Yes.
.■itjj;^'^. So far as your experience has gone, taking in the two systems, whicii in
your opinion is preferable l — I think the license law is preferable.
.■5()2.'5U. What difficulties were experienced in enforcing the permit .system ? — There
was a tendency among the people to drink too much when they did drink. Some one
would olitain a permit occasionally and he would invite his friends, and when the liquor
arri\ed they would sit down with .some people who invited themselves, and they would
drink the whole of it. They would drink too much, and this would have a serious effect
<in ]i(>t)j)le who drunk oidy occasionally.
•'i(>*J40. Do you refer to licpior that was brought in under permit, or to litpior which
was smuggled into the Territories ? — To li(iuor that was brought in.
.'i(!2H. Of what character was the lii|Uor which was smuggled (—Genei'ally they
smuggled nothing but alcohol. They used almost anything in the early days.
•■Ui24L'. Do you know anything about the compounds that wcic used !--Yes, I have
seen a great many used : Pain-kill(>r, Bay I'um, Floi'ida water, I'urdock's J'lood Hitters
aiiil anything that contained alcohol. I have seen liaii' restorati\-e used as a l)everage.
•'iOL'l.'i. Have you seen rinl ink used as a beverage? — No, but I have seen nitre used.
.'56241. How were those com[ioun(ls made up? — They were used by men who could
not obtain anything else. Before tli(> building of the railway there was no communica-
tion b(>t ween here and Winnipeg except l)y carts. The li(|UOi' arr-ivcd in the s)):;ng
and tail, and when the last carts came in the fall there would l)e no niDre comi- in until
•I line or July. The pei'uiits canu' in in the fall and then; was a y;eneral spree until
till- li(|uor was finished, and then ihey woidd finish of!" with whatever they could get in
I lie shape of drugs.
i^?"^;* '•■5<i24o. How woulil they do tlie rest of the season, until the spring arrived ^--They
wi'iild have to do without li(|Uor, if there were none of the compounds left. If there were
any they would mix them up and use them ; indeed some of the men got so accustomed
tn thiMU tliat they would use them in preference to tlu^ liquor. 1 have known instances
of that.
■")ti246. Then in the s{)ring more li(pior would come in, I suppose ? — Yes.
- 1 j"il')247. After the railway was constructed was there an increased supply of licpior
vnnler permits? — Yes, there was no lack of it.
•')<i248. Was that after the main line of the Canadian Pacific Railway was built? —
Yes, we could then obtain it more easily.
'' '*, ;i(i249. Had you any experience of li(pior smuggled in in packages of merchandise
and in other wavs ? — I have lieard all kinds of stories.
.H23
21 21.',**
HI .
■ 11.
i 1
Liquor Traffic — Xorth-wcst Territories.
m
KM-
'M>2ii0. 1 I'ctV'i' to licjuor Ix-inij; contained in jiiickages of siigai- and ri(-i' and so forth '.
— Yi's.
.■{()2")l. Have you noticed wlietiier sale of liiiuor is ;;oiiif,' on among tiie
Indians ; I liave not. I havo noticed a few Indians and llalf-lireeds di'inkin<;.
'M')'2i>'2. Takinjf your expei'ience, do you tliink it would lie praeticahle to enforce a
j)i-oliil)itoi'y law, a law proliibitini; the inanufaetui'e, iinportatinn and sale of intoxieat-
inn ii(|Ucir for heverane jiui'poses '/ — No, I do not think you could enf(»rce it.
.'U)i'.").'i. l.)o you think, in cas(f of such a law heinj^ passed, that it would be rij;ht.
and just for brewers and distillers to receive renuineration for their lo.ss of plant and
niat-hinery ; I do.
;S()2r)l. ,Ju(lj;inj,' fi'oui what you have seen of the license law since the 1st of May,
are there any amendments you could sugi;est I-— No, except curtailir" the number of
licenses i;ranted, for I tind in some districts tiiere are too many licen.ses.
.■5t)L'5-"). In this town we undei'stand tliere are only one hotel licen.se and two shop
licenses <,'raMted ?— Yes. I do not think there are too many in Prince Albert, butr there
are enough. At Hatocht! there is one licensed place, further uj) there is another, besides
two at Duck Lake. This .system will ha\t' a tendency to make ])eople in tlu? i-ural dis-
tricts drink more. Any man may conn? into town and buy lic|Uor, but if you t;ike an
i.solated liciuor store where, according to the licen.se, the licensee niu.st .sell only wholesale,
thei'e is a great tendency to sell by the gla.ss.
;U)2r)(). We have been told that tiie cases of drunkenness that have occurred lia\f
been mostly among non-i'esidents of the town, visitors who come here. l)o you know any
thing else on that subject?--] couldnot say exactly, bat I think they are principally out-
siders living in the adjoining country. Thei'e does not appear to lie an increase amongst
the people of the town.
, is* ;
JOHN McTAtaiAliT, of Prince .Vlbert, Agent for Dominion Land.s, on being
duly sworn, deposed as follows:—
1)1/ Jnd(ie JIcDotid/d :
'M\2^u. How long ha\e you resided here? — Between seven and eight years.
.■i()2oS. Where did you reside before coming here? — 1 resided in Touchwootl in tiic
bunnner of 1.SS4.
•'Ul^oit. Did you couu! here fr'om one of theother ])r(jvinces? — I came here from < )ntini(i.
.itV-'dO. VVhi'it County ( — Victoria.
•'MIlM)!. Have you noticed the operation of the permit system in the North-\Mst
Territories ? -Yes.
.■30"J()-. How did you tind it work.' — Very un.satisfactorily. Permits wei'e too easily
obtained.
."{(ilidlJ. Have you e\('r noticed men getting together with th(>ir friends wlicii u
permit would come in, and (lriid<ing until the li(juor was all gone?- — Yes, [have hciird nf'
that.
.■{():2(I4. Have you noticed anything of the working of the license system since I si
May last 1 Yes.
;U)2()r). How have you founil the pivsent law woi'k?— 1 ha\e noticed i >'
drunkenness since that time than before.
o(')'2(')(). Are you favoural)le to license or jirohibition? — 1 am in favour of jirohibitimi.
liCrJtir. Are you oj)posed to licen.se on the ground of ex]iediency, or on the grou?i(l
that it is wr<ing to licen.se? — 1 think it is wrong to grant licemsc-, and it is inexpeiliciii
as well.
iitiJI))^. You think the granting of licenses is wrong in principle? — Yes.
3(i2(')!). And you think i)rohibition is right in pi'inciple?- Yes.
Thomas O. D.wis.
324
fni
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ill till'
Diitiiri"-
rlh-wcst
DO ciisily
wlicii il
heard nt
^llK't" !>'
.(1 lll'iir
hiliiti<iM.
m'liuiiil
qieclifiil
;U)i270. Til ciisc of till? t'liaftnifiit of a |)i'oliil)itory liiw, a law proliihitiii^' llir niiiiiu-
ffictui'e, iiii|iortati(>ii ami siiic of iiitoxicdtin;; li(|iiors for bcvt-raj,'!' luirposfs, woulil voii
favour the j^naiitiiij,' of coiiijx'iisatioii to hniutM's and distillers for loss of plant .' -No.
.■{()l!71. i)oyi)ti know of any husiiiess that is proliiliited hy Aet of Parliament as it is
sujfuested to proliiliit the liquor hiisiiiess .' -Sometimes the operation of the tai'itl" causes
otlii'i' imsinesscs to hecoine uriprolitahh? and |ire.ents men making money out of them ;
hut in this case they should have studied the point hefore tht^y entered the husiness.
'M'>2~'2. Have you considered the (|uestion of the treatment of the hahitual drunk-
ard. There are men wiio are constantly hefore the police I'ourts and an sent to jirisoii
for short terms. It has heiui suj,f;;ested that it winild he better to send those men to
inehriate asylums with a view to their reformiktion, or at all events with tin- object of
kcepiiii; them away from saloons? — Yes, provided the drink could not be kept away
from them.
Jii/ Ji,i: Dr. Mvhiod:
•■5()27.'5. As Doininioii Lands A;;-erit, what arc your duties? To urant entries for
land, make sales of land, and so forth.
■'i()"274. So you make sales of Dominion lands.' -Yes.
'M)'lli>. AVithin what area have you cliarge of !>oiniriion lands? I ha\ e chai'ice of
the Princ<? Albert District. It extends from the northern boundary of the Saskatche-
wan t!ast to J{anii;e ]'•'> and Jlanj,'e 10 west.
'MVlli't. Yourduties,! suppose, bring you into contact with the people a i,'reat deal? —
Yes.
.'i<)L'77. 1)() you have to travel much? — Xo. my business is in the otlice.
.■{Ol'78. Then pcojile come to you? — Yes.
■■i<)279. Ai'c you able from your contact with business people to form an o})inioii as
til liow they r(!gard the drink trathc' and what treatment they desire to give it,
whether they desire a system of permits, license or prohibition ? —F think if the (piestion
were left to the ])(M)ple, they would rather lia\e prohibition.
">I')2S0. i'rom your oli.servation of the old .system and the issue of permits, have yoii
reason to believe that whatcNcr dissatisfaction there was with the system was directly
attributable to the lax administration of the ))ermit .system? — Most (lecidedly.
■'>G'281. The statistics show that the nuinbor of permits issued increased i-einarkably
of late years, and it would seem that jiermits wore issuecl indiscriminately of late years.
Were you able to observe whether that was the case or not ? When I iMliie to the
cimntry first permits were not so easily obtained as they wi^re subseiiuently. (fovernor
Uewdney wa.s in power at that time, and he seemed to be very iin()opular indeed, and
still no one could say aiiytliinit afrjiinst him or ])oint out any particular wroiij; he had
(lone. I could not understand from what his unpopularity arose. I subsequently found
it arose from the permili system, that some persons wire icfiiscd |ierinit-i while others
were granted them, and this caused dissatisfaction. jjate?' on the restrictions were
taken away considerably, and as the restrictions were removed (lovernor J.)ewdnev"s
]iiipularity increased. I noticed that during' the
jiiipular.
■'ii'i'-'S-J. That would .seem to indicate that the
who iMad(> the most noise.
.■it)L'8;J. You have observed, I supjiose, the working of the other .systems: the pei'-
iiiit system at first, when some care was exercised in the issue of iieriiiits, and later tlit.'
t'luir per cent beer plan, and since 1st May the license .system. Placing those three sys-
tems side by side and looking carefully and thoroughly at their eiVccts, which do you
tliiiik is the best .system? The permit system.
•''iti2iSf. As early exercised and administered? Yes. by all means.
:ili-'S."). Was there any attempt made in Prince Albert and in its vicinity to pre-
Miit the change being made?-- No.
■"ill'JSd. Was no petition sent? — Not that 1 am aware of.
■'ill-S7. Was no a|iplicatiou sent from Prince Albert to lia\e a plebiscite taken on
this i|uestion? Not tliat 1 am aware of.
325
latter jiart of his tei'iii he was very
people wanteil lii|uor ? Only those
■iii
{■ ■ I ■:■•!
I I
Hi
ffljii'
1''
lii
i '
J '
If '
i'l-
Liquor Traffic — Nitrth-west IVrritorlos.
;?(i"_'SS. ^'()u do not know that tlu' people ot' Prince Alhfirt nifulo ii ref|iiisition to
tlio Lej{isliiture to Imve (in aye (in<l iKiy vote on tlic ([uestion f N'o, tlie mutter was
broilfjlit st roni;ly liet'oro I lie Jicople. The elections canie on i|uicl<ly, almost liet'oi«( the
temperance! peo|)le had time to look round them for candidates. I was told that all the
candidatos wei'o rathor in t'avoin' of licen.sp ; so thero was no option.
.'<()"_'S1(. |)o you umlerstand that tlu> enactment of a license law was not in any sense
an issui! at tho last election .' I do not think it was. I was not, however, j)resent here
durinj,' the election. T was in Ontario while the elections weie proj^'ressin;;.
.'!()■_'!•(). Since the license law came into operation, lia\e there been any conijiiaints
madi' hy the people hc.vr, of iiipior hein;.' obtained by Indians and llalf-br'ceds ?--l have
heard a ^'ooil deal about the Half breeds obtaiiunji; mor<> li(Hior under thi' license .system.
has be
.'iCiL'ilJ. lias any representation been made to the authorities at Uej^ina ? The
."?()■_".•■_'. In a formal way or by individuals
!!»-J'.i;i. Was the iietition niunei
iy a ]ietition.
OUSlV SI'MMM
I ' Id.
o not know hciv, manv si''hatnri
there were.
b
.•<()L'!lt. What did the petition set forth
Tl
'lit
across the river to the Indians and Half breeds
le petition i'onip]aine(
(1 of
d asked that
iiiiiiht lie taken to pre\('nt that sort of tl
iinLr iieinir <a
tried
lUHlor lieili^
some steli-.
ilv of 111
.'iCi'Jllo. Mas there been any re)ily made to that pet it ion .'--Yes, the
authorities I understand was
.IiI)(;k .McDOXAril). -Did you see the reply?
\\'ITNI"]SS. I saw the ))a|ior. The reply was that the police authorities had tl
matter in hand and would investigate.
ly cliaiii;e in the condition o:
if atl'ii
.'- It
was i)iil\
Jl>/ L'.r. Dr. MrLn„l .
.'i(i29(). Has there been an
within the last two or three days.
.'i()"Ji)7. r>ut your observation so far as the licens(? system is concerned is, that then-
has l)een iiion; drinkinu jind drunkonness than pre\ iously ? Yes ; I think there has been
more drunkenness since the license system cami; into force.
liif Jiuhje Mi'DoHiihl :
.')(i'29S. You have worked aloiii;' with ihefrii'iids of prohibition in Prince Albert. I
.suppose? -Yes.
.■?()29i). Can you tell me whether they wanted a license law or petitioned for local
prohibition ? — No.
\VJ LlilA.M (Il'NX, of Prince Albeit, advocate, on beini; duly sworn, deposed
follows :
lii/ Jnchji- Mf DditiiUl :
'MVM)[). How loiii; ha\e your resided here ?- Ooin^ on 12 years.
."id-'iOl. Where did you reside before?- -In Manitol)a ; T was born there.
;5(».'i02. When you came to the North-west Territories, was the permit system
force ? -Yes.
.'?l)."?0.'5. Did you see aiiythinn; of its ojieration ?- T saw a good deal of its operatii
.'!(i.St)l. Will you kindly statt^ what your observations were? ^ly impressions \m
that when a per.son wanted liipior and to go on a spree he would ask for a permit. I
could get a permit for from 2 to 10 gallons. I suppose, although 1 never got oi
that it was at the time when unlimited permits were granted to certain indixiduals.
other witnesses have said to-day, when the piM'init arrived, .bjliii Smith was the friend
exery man in the place; they gathered around him and stayed with him until there w
John McTA(;i:.MfT.
326
II.
ir
le
|C.
.Vs
of
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iKitliiii;,' to stiiy for. Liitcr on tlicri' wiis a lni of li((»iur in tln» roiiiitry, siiiii;,'j,'k'(l iiiul
.illii'isviHc. Liii'j;(( (|Uiiiititi('s of li(|uoi' were l)roii;;lil in undi'f |)('i'init. I know tluit
as a fad, lit'causc I liavn seen L'HO ;;allons of what we called " fort \ -nxl," tlu' worst kind of
whisky made, on one oultit, and in thi' saii.c c.iii^o I sM|)|iost' fluTf ucrcL'OO );alions
I did not Mt'e. There wore lots (»f cases of that kind where larj^e i|iiantitie.H of
lii|Uor were .siiiu;:Lrled into tli ■ country.
.■Ki.'.or)-!). Ih '. was (lie iic|iior packed f l( was in I'O j;al!on or 10 i,'allipii ke^s. It
was taken up the < 'ariadian I'ai-irK.' i!ailway road to Kiish l^ake and then to the South
.Saskatcliew m, 1 .") oi' l'U miles, where it was put on llal hoats .'uid hroULilit down to
within 1 ■'" miles of here, where it wii.s sold at from .S'."»0 to >i<20.00 a gallon. 1 ha\e also
seen it hroiiitht in in cans lahelleil apples and as dill'erent varieties nf canned yoods.
.Sd.'KJ". Were the tins scaled ' Ves, the same as canned ;l,'i" in a store, as they
appear on the shehcs.
;l(i.">()S. Were pain killer and oilier sidistitutes used, to your kii' iw ledi,'e ,' -Yes, I
know that fiom practical «'Xperience.
.■l((.")t»'.». What were use(l .' —Pain-killer and hay nnn, a mixture of lieef, iron and
wine, Idood hitters and thinj^s of that kind. They also used extracts and essences and
.laiiiaica rum. It was (piite connnon when I first caUi' hei'c to meet a man traNiJIint;
roiuid with a nundier of small liott ies in iii.> pocket contaiidnL; I i< pi ids of t his ki ml, ami at
ihe s.iine time looking around for a friend to have a spree.
• iti.'Ut). From what you saw, do you think that a neneral prohihitory law inv tli(>
I'ominion could he enforced ?--I do not think .so.
.■ili.'ili. I refer to a law prohihitint; the manufacture, imporlatioii and s.di' of intoxi-
catiiu; lii|Uors for be\'eiaj,'e purposes. |)o ymi think that if such a law were enacted, it
would lie possihlo to kee|) li<(Uor out of the country '. .\ iini\eisal law miu'lil pussiMy ho
enforced, hut not a local one.
.'ill.'i 1l'. a universal law for what? .\ univcr>al law tor tiic whole <(Uitineni of
.\merica. I do not think even that could he enforced strictly, hcr.i ^c there wniild he u
lai'Lic (piantity hrouiiht into the I'nited States as well as the |)ouiinion.
."iCt.'il.'i. Tn case of the enactment of such a law, do you think it would lie right and
just that hrewers and distilliu's should hi- c(»inpensated for their loss of plant / -Yes
.'iti'il 1. Have you seen the operation of the license lasv in this town ! — T have.
•"><;.") 1"). How have you found it work here,'--.\ great deal more satisfactoi'ily th.in
I lie permit system. I do not think I here is nearly as much driinkemu'ss in the town
now. 1 have hoard some evidence to show that such is not the case, hut the reason for
tli.'it might he explained in this way : the constal)le is on the lookout more sharj>ly for
drunks, and if he tindsa man drunk he ruiisiiim in. l'"ormerly it was nut uncommon to
sec drunken men, hut they were not run in. I lia\eheen there myself hut 1 never was
iMcddled with by the constable, and that was the case time and time again. Sothenum-
hei' of tines was no index.
;i(i.'ill'). J-)o you consitler there was more drinking under the okl law than now?
—Yes.
% /?rr. Dr. Mi-L,'od:
• iti-'UT. As you escaped btMiig run in befoi'e the license system came into fiu'ce, have
ynu heeii ruii ill since .' No, J have not. 1 have not drank since. I have been a total
abstainer since May.
•"Ui.'US. fs that because there is a license system now.' — Yes, just becaU«' I feel it
is a law wv can respect, anil one wiiich we helped ourselves tt) frame. I have a thorough
cnnteiiipt for a prohibitory law, and \ beliexc th.it the majority of the jieople in the Ter-
lilories have the same feeling.
•"iti.'ili). I)id the smuggling incrca.se steadily ,' i think it did, uniil during, jierhaps,
I he last year or so.
^iii^il'U. When the railway was built 1 su|>pose there was more. 1 )o you know
will ther the numlu'r of i)ermils was reduced of late ye.irs .'—I base heard lots of pieople
•■ay they were I'efused permits.
•Iti.'SL'l. Did you notice whether the ([uantity specified on the permits increa.sed of
late vears I -I do not think so liecause the very first permit 1 got was for seven gallons.
327"
I . 'I
11',!
Tiicjiioi' 'I'lallic — X<Mth-wost Territories.
.'itillJ'J. W'c li!i\(' liriird tliiit tlic urdiiiuiy |)('i'init. was foi- two
.'II lotis iiiiu HC'iircol
cvtM' iilxivc live? 'riic ;;t'ii('riil run iif pciniil.s wiis for two j^iilluiis and ii iiinii would get
11
ircc '';illciiis with It.
;i(').'lL'.'l. hid you say llial a man cnuld '^i'{ .'! ^'illoiis in on a 1' gallon permit? — Yfi
tlicy would allow liiat. We used ( 'aiiadiaii iiicasiirc, and llir ordrf was fi
Iiii|nM'ijd, wliicli represented ','> gallons Canadian.
.'{(i.'lJI. «So (here wa.s not much of an atlemiit to res|M'cl prohiliition .' I
a<'ross \i TV many |ieo|ile who res|)ected it.
;:aMons
ne\-ei' rami'
i' »l '
rKTHM U( )r.K|{TS()N, Chief of I'olice, wasajjuin ealled.
7)1/ Jic.r. Dr. Mcb'od :
.'5().'?"jr). When you say there is more diunkeniu'ss now than in former days, do y<
mean that vou run in e\ery drunken man i No : I lake a drunk home.
■MV.VH\. And it
Iv when tliev are disorderly vou run them in '.- I tell sui'li
III tiiat if he does not yo home, I will arrest 1
iim.
if h
,'oes home (|uietly, a
llhoti;r|i
li»,' is under the intluenee of li(|uoi'. \eiy well; I look after him if there is no jiossihility
of his K"'i'.- home. Some of the old hums we have necessarily to jirrest when they are
in !i(|uor.
The ('
Mumission ;ulionriied, to resmiieits sittiii'' in
Iteui
WlLIJ.VM (J I" NX.
H2S
fy*
67 Victoria.
Sessiousil Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
UKOINA, S»\vw\>v\- I, IS'.C'.
'I'liu liiiviil I'uiiiiiiissiiiii icsuiiumI its sittini; ln'if toiliiy.
/'I'fKi'iit ;
•lumK MclKiN Ai.ii. I{i:v, |)n, McLkoh.
JOHN n. ('. \Vir.L(»l'(!MI'.V, M.I)., uf KcL'iiia. ..I. iM'ini; duly swoin, d.-poscl
as t'ullows :
/>)/ ,/ii,/i/: Millitiiiihl :
.'It'p.'tiT. Mow luiii; liiiM' Vdii resided in the Nnitliwesl 'I'eiritinies .' .Mniiil leii
y(;:irs.
.'Kl.'i'JS. I »iiiiiiu all lllfit time have ymi heeii eiit,'a^'e(l in the |iraeliee nt' niedieiiie?
^'es.
.'i(i;i'_".l. I (urihi; all that time ha\'e Vdii icsided in |{ei;ina .' No, I ha\i' Used li\e
years in Ke^iiia.
.■')(I."!.'i(J. Where did ymi reside the other li\e years ,' f !i\i'd in the northern pari ot'
till' Territories, |irinei|ially at Saskalooti.
.■!<1."5.'JI . Did you come from one ot' the |irovini'es to the North west 'j'erriluries .' I
(•.line from Ontario.
.")(!.'5.'{"2. |''roni what ('ounty did you come .' l<'roin near Toronto.
."ilili,"!."!. Have yon li.id ex|ierienee in aiiV oilier |irohil>iloiy eoiiiilry ihaii the Noi'th-
west Teri'itoi'ies ?- Nunc al all.
.■tti.S.'U. Ila\e Villi seen the 'rerritories under what was ealleil the |)eriiiit >\slein !--
I hav.-.
.'lO.S.S."). And also under the license since 1st May? ^'es.
.■i(>."{.'i(i. W'liicil is the lirefer.ilile system .' -1 think the liceii.se .systtMii.
.■!(>.■{.'{". |)id yiiu lind t he oi her .system not work satisfactorily.' Not In my mind.
."i().'i.'{S, What was there atiotit it, as re^^irds its workiiiif, that was unsatisfactory '.
The main unsatisfactory feature was the (|uantity of lii|iioi- 1>roui;ht in hy a]i|)licaiits
tor permits.
.'i().'t.'{!l. Have yiiu I'casun to heliex e I hat liipior was smuj;uled into tiie 'rerrilnries /
Ves, I have e\ery reason to helicM' sn.
■ iii.ilO. Have you any reason to suppose that tht^ lii|Uiir thai was so hrouitht in was
lit' .111 impure and injurious character.' Personally T know nothini; of that. It was
M'ly freijueiitly stated that the liipmr siiui!,'i.ile(l in was nf a \('rv inipiire character.
• ifi.'ill. The (Commissioners ha\e lieeii infnrmeil thai it was the custom under the
piiiiiil s\stem, fill' peiiplc who iilitained permits aed l;o1 liipior to have a few friends
ciiiiie in, and they would drink until all the lii|Uiir was consumed .' — That was ceilainly
tile iiahit in many cases, hut not in all cases.
.'ili.'il'j. 'i'he Commissioners have lieeu also tnld that (lie pe(>](lo were in the liahit of
usiiij; pain-killer, eau de Coloi^ne anil other suhstances in lieu of liipior for l)e\ craue jiur-
piisi's? — In the northern ]iart of the country, away from the railway, il was harder to
P'l liquor in, and I have freipiently seen people use such decoclions.
."ili.'U."), 1 >o you lind the use of liipior of that kind contined to any parlimilar class'?
No. I cannot say so. T think it was not,
."id.'iH. It has heeii sui,'i;csted that the only jieopje who used pain-killer were niPii
uhn Were old topers, and it was used after they had i;ot over a liout of drinkini; liipior
iliiii would come in under ])crmil .' 1 ha\e seen a i,fooil ileal of thai too. .Must of the
lii|Uiir drunk in that wav was used hy persons of that kind, hut it was not ultogelluM" so,
329
■: ll;
I : l!
;l
llfr-
I
if
m
liiquor Traffic — North-'weist Tei-rit(Ji-ies,
A'// h'>'r. Dr. Mi- hod:
'MV.\['). Wliiit wMs Mil' cliiff defcc' nt' tin- permit systtMii ,' .My chict' i)h)ecti(iii to it
was tluit liciiKir wiis hroujiUt in by partic:; in (jUiintitii's t'lvnii vwo to five j;;ill()iis in i<egN aiui
was stored away soiiifwlici'c in tlit* 'vtiisc, and tiicn a crowd woidd ,i;atlii'!' round and
there would l)i' a liii; drunk. Tlia*^ was oni' olijection. Anotlier <il)iection was, that a
man wlio redly needed li(|Uor in ids house tor niechea! puriioses ]in>l)ahly could not
iihtain a ]>ermit, while his neijihliour. \\ ho did nui need it tor 'nedieMJ purpipses, could
uhtaiu a
11 th
1"
rndts he wanted.
.'iO.'JUi. On what conditions were the |'(M'nnt> granted .' — They were supposed to In
granted tor medical and domestic piU'poses, and on
recommended hv some one known to tlui (Jo'.ernor.
mdition thai the a[)plicant wa-
.■?(').") 17. I low did it hai
that pei'suns who leally n
ceded alciiholic liiniur t'<
medicinal )iui'iioscs enuld not ^ei a jterinil, while those wlm did nut want it t'nr medical
purposi^s coidrl ihlain it. ]iow wastht discrimination made.' 1 ha\e known settlei-
who lived lonir distances away from the railway come into te-vn. tlic'-e heini;' sickness in
lose
idca\'our to t^et a permic, and could not ii' so, liecause no one wl
theii' families, and et
reconimcMidatioii woidd he taktMi hy the (!(i\-ernor knew tlie paitK';
."id.'ilS. So the permit system was nut administered simply find
ises, hut the peruuts weie i;i\cn accurdinL;' to the < !ii\ eiiiur s kimw ledi;e of the ap]
omest 11' and medical
>li-
it. Was that the case ( -I ilii not mean ih.it atall. 'I'lie (JiiMMimr made a cimdilioii
thai wlinever wan
ted
pet
imt shou
Id 1
)e •■'■(•(iiiimended iiy sciiie respiiiiNihle persip.i
ili.'il!). i'nr instance, if a set tier came into tow ii and wanted liiiiior for medicinal
loses, won 1 1
1 he not he reiiimineiided hy vou or some ntlicr plivsici.in
purpi
refused Ii (III so in iiiai.v cases, because I did not kii
1 h
>i.
about sicknv.s in his f.uni
he is known to me.
low out Miat tlie person was lyuii;
I hace no reason to yive a man ;i r iiimendation unless
.'M.'i.'it). You iia\e said you knew cases where men who nce<l"d alcoholic lii|Uiir foi
(licinal pur])oses were refused permits. W'nuld you recommend jiarties in case ymi dii
enow
tlu'in ? — I would, certainl
ili;!.")!. Would a permit t
len lia\'e lieen i,'raii
led ; — I
liave known that some
recommeiiileii have been r(>fused.
•M\
.Villi the parties
were Ml II I
if alcoholic I
iipior tor nie.hcin.il piirpi
.■!(>;!.").'!. ( )n the other hand, liave you known of pailivs who did not need to obl.iin
lii|Uor for medicinal purposis, obiain permits? Yes.
.■fli.'Jo I. 1 )oyou think the )ieiin't system was badly administcreil, lakinu it allo^ethl■r '
ot think it
would he iiossi
ble ti
;ii
Do vou think it could ha\e heen
properly administer il
•llicicnth' ailminisiered than il was
dministered '! I do not know. I do not know enoui;h about the iiiannoi in which ii
,as administered to be able to state positively that it mi','lit have been inanaf;ed better.
i().'i")l). hi) vou know whether i)ermits were vcrv fieelv mauled or not
llii.'k tl
1
lev vveie ; that is to say in the Liter vcai.-
1
'••S.ll.
What are the advant;
if the licens
()i
le adv,:ntai,'e is that a man who really needs Innior is .ili
e system over t lie pcnilit svslein
lie III jret il just as he re(
;(n;i.-i
<U|iliose I hose w
ho ill
it can lict it vviihout liinilr;ii
.'ili.'i.'iil. 'i'lien are v\ • to inide; stand that in the okl da s somelimo an applieal imi.
rsed I ^ a rcsjiectable piiysici.in, woulii be refused, even vvl'."ii liuiior was needed fur
medicinal )iur|ioscs jiurely .' N'o. F would not like to make that statement positively, lie-
cau.se T (.uiiiot recall to my meniorv now any particular ciuso, altliou<.'h that is my belief.
.'!li."iliO. l!ut you have said that some applications that were endorsed liy yourself
•fused .' Ik
line weiv refused when I recommended them, l)Ut I caniiei
rememlier aiiv case now. and I would not like on mv oath to -.late iliat such vvas ill'
fact.
.'Wi.'{(il, Thosi^ ]ieople reciiimnended were, 1 suppose, in need of
liipllol for lliedlcllial
irpc
Yes, I
vvas told that it vv.is needed tor lliat pur]ii
John 11. C. Wii.i.oLiiiiiiv,
330
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'!(').'i(')L'. You rcciiiiiiucndcd them iicididiiif^'ly .' ^'rs.
."i(J.''^i.'). J^o you tliiiik tilt' (ioxci'iiof liiid iiiiy reason to hclicM' iliat tlic pci.soii.s
(Ifsiit'd lo jr't lii(Uoi' uiidtT tVaudult'iit reiircsoiitatioiis ? — \ was nivsclf I'cfiiscd a |i('nnit
t'or uiodii-iiial purposes. At tliat lime 1 was liviiii; in Saskatoon. 'I'lie ( !o\ crrior said
lie coald not i;iant a ]ierniit to any one who lived there.
.")l);i(i I. What was the reason.' The reason was that he had promised the iiianaLiers
lit' the 'I'einperanee Cohjiiization Society that people li\ini,' there would not be j;ranle(l
pi'iinits.
."ili.'!(jr> Xot, even for inedirinal purposes.' T ajiplied t'or a ]ierinit for liipior for
medicinal purposes and was refused.
:'ili.'i()(i. hoes lieense rejjulate the trade, aeeordint;' to your ohsersation .' 1 think so.
"i(i3'''7. In what respeet .' I )oes it diniinish drinkin;; .' I cannot state as a fact any
I hini; aixiut it.
."i(l;!(iS. hoesit diminish disorders Lfrow'inir out i,i (lruid<enness .' I l)elie\e it does.
Since the license system has come into forc(>, I thiiiK my experience has heen ' liat we
;ue less called upon to attend |iatients sull'eriiii; from drunken liouts.
.">(l,')l)'.(. I''r()in your ol)ser\ation in Ue;;ina since the license system has come into
opirat ion. has there Icen less di.soi'der than tlieri? was pre\iously? I think there has
liceii less dmikennc^s since the lieens(> law came into operation than in tlu' days of the
|iermit .systour when a crowd would leather together and driid< a carLto of whisky and
siai't round town and raise a racket. Since the license system we certainly have hail
less of that condition : hut whether that is the reason if it, I would not liki^ to say.
."ili.'lTl*. Are yon alile to state whethei- there has Keen less druid<emiess inider license
ihaii under the ]iennit .sysleni ! I think there has Ween les•^ inder license,
•'(•)371. From your oliserx at ion do you helicNe t hat there was no prohiliition |irac-
lic;dly under ihe permit system .' 'i'he proliilul ion wa-- there, hut it was not ohserved.
•'ilil)?:.'. It was not enforced,' 1 would not say that. .\ ureat deal of lii|uor hroutrhl
in w;ii snuil'^'led, hut so far as the authoi-ities were com erned llie\ tried to enforce the
law.
."i()."i7;l. i)o yon think that the way 'n which t he permit poit ion of the law w.isadmin
i--te''e(! made the prohiliition of no > it'ect ,' I woidd not like to answer t hat (|Uest ion ;
in fact I do not know nuich aliout the administration of it,
.')():'i71. I )o you lielievi! in the total prohiliition of the lii|Uor i rallic ,' I do. personally.
.iti.'wo. Speaking aliout prohiliition for the whole country, do you think that if a
i^i'iieral ]iroliiliit(iry l.iw w ere cniicteil, a law |irohiliitinii- the manuf;n:ture, importation
and sale of iiitoxieatinu li<fn is lor li"Veraij;e ]iurposes, it would he lienelicial '.
.■!li.'i7(i. As a physiciaii, lii\e yon ol)ser\ed whether drinkini; men compared with
iot;d alislainers. liaye the s, me chances of recovery in ease of serious illness, or has the
total ahstainer the iietter chance .' I do not think he has any better chance,
.'iti;i77. 'I'lien yo.i think the total alislainer has not a better chance than adiinkinn
man! I do not t hink iu! has any bet ter chance than the man who mij,dit be called a
moderate drinker. ( *f coursi', a man whose constitution is ruined by drink cannot
st;iiid the elleets of disease,
,'!ii.'i7S. |)ii you tind that many men are yixeii to the drink li;iliit. mid accordinirly
liii\e their con-,tit ut ions undermined ,' We h.ive \ei\ few of them in this country.
/)'// Jidliir Mi' ptiiiiilil :
■iti.'!7I). ^^lu have said in regard (o y<iur experiein'c at Saskatoon, that the 'l'em|ier-
aiii-c l_'oloni/at ion Company made an ai,M'eemeiit with the authorities not to issue any
|ieriiiitrS to people livinj; there, and accoriliinily the (Jo\eriioi' would not i;raiit permits [
That was stated as the reason for refusing;' me a |iermit.
.'i(i.iS()- 1 . So there was a reason ,i,'i\eti, ami that was tie leason ' ^'es.
• iti.'iS'-'. ^'ou ha\e been asked whether the license system diminished disorilers ;;row-
niL' out of ilriiukenness, and you ha\esaid that you lielie\eilit did. The comparison
\"ii were asked to make was bi'tween that and the permit system, and you said that
your belief as betwei .i the two was that the license system wasthe lietter. 'I'ake allot her
side of the i|ueslion. Take llu! liieiise i- .stem and take the nnl raminelled sale of lii|Uoi
'o wImiiii and when the dealer pleased, which WouM be tlie better s\stem .' The license
I,
Li(inor T.affic — North-Avest Territories.
system tliiit limits the nun l)ei' of places of sale and pliict^'^ the men in the trade under
certain restrictions, or un'nnitcd sale by everyl)ody at any j)lace t — That is a ipiestion 1
have never thouf^ht niuc i ab<iut.
.S();{S3. I'nder will li would you expect to have less disorder? — I believe in tiuK^
you v.'ouid iiave it uikUm' the free sale system.
;{(),")S1. 1)() you nieari you would have less disorder under it? — I think probably in
time that the peo|)le would i;et so sick of it, they would abandon it of their own
accord.
.■iG.*]!^-"). So you think that if one or the other of the two systems were continued,
thei'e would be less disordi'r under fre(i sale? — Yes, I think so.
.'itKiSG. You s)ioke of smugiilinf,' that occurred. If there had been no permits in tlie
Territories, would that have occurred ? -Yes, certainly.
.■U).'i)s7. Do you consider, from the experience you had, that y-eiu'ral ]iiohibi' ion, if
ena('te<l, would be practicable and would b" enforced ! The only experience J have had
was with the jiermit system, anil I know it \>'s impossible to administer it properly,
that is to keep liquor out of the c(juntry, for i Know inniiense (juantities of it were
broujilit in.
;5();588. Did the [Mounted Police ai)pear to be faithful in tiie discharjie of their
duties? -Yes; but in a large country like tiiis they coul<l not lie everywhere, and 1
know the law was not obeyed.
JSi/ h'"r. Dr. Mr /.,.„,/:
'MVAX',). I )o you know that the Saskatoon pe(»ple reque.sted that no permits should be
gianted for liipior fm- medical pin'|)oses ? I believe so, on account of being refused.
.■)():$!)0. You lived at Saskatoon. At the time you lived there, was it the feeling of
the peo]ile that there should not lie any permits issued for niedii."ii jiurposes? No, it
was not the fe(>ling at all.
.']6.'}91. Who were the acti\c parties then ? The Company. The representatives of
the com|)apy in the tem|ierance colony were about ei(ually ili\ ided as regards the use of
liquor.
;i('i.'i!)2. 1'he only reason that you have for believing thi't the manager's of the
com])aay wanted no permits granted for li(|i;or for medicinal p\ir|ioses was thatyoui'
application for a permit for such purpo.se was refused ? — It was refused on that ground.
IlG.'iO.'i. That reason v.as stateil by the Governor oi' by the authorities? That was
the reason given.
.'?(i3!)4. How long ago was it ? That would be about 1 S.S.'i or lS8(t.
;iti.'59r). Do you know that while your application for a ]iermit was refusei!, permits
were granteil to other peoj)le at Saskatoon ? Yes, I think they were. 1 got a permii
in the spring of |SS.") for 1(J gallons <pf alcohol and two gallons of l)randy to be used in
my pi'iictice.
.'i((.'{!M). \\'hat made the dillerence in tlii' two cases/ I had a good de;d of dillicuity
in getting the (irsi jiermit. I i;. ■eded a lot of diiigs, iind I needed al,(jliol and brandy
with which to make them.
.^(ili'JT. liut it seemed that ynu could not get any permit aftervards .' That was
the last one 1 got.
3(i.">',IS. A^'erc other jiermits granted .' I think after a time they were. For twn
or thi'ce years the jieople there were refused |>ermits, and for other two years they would
get them.
.Sli.'i'.lil. ^^'heth.■|■ for me(lieinal purj)oses or not ; 1 thinkso. The managers of the
C!ompiiny then brought the matter up again, and permits were again refused.
.'idlOO. They were refused then. I supr ise, for iriv |iur|ioses? -Yes, 1 belie\i
Bi/ Judge Jft;D(iiiii/</
.'UilOl. Do vou hohl
body ? I a
my ollicial i>osilioii in Ixeguia ci>nnecte(l with any |
lUlilW
m a mem
ber iif I he Town (.'ouncil
otilOl.'. How man\ ii
leiMlK
rs are in the Council
Six, besi les the
Mayor.
.lonv H. C. A\'ii,i,iu i.iiin .
882
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
vour
■nmts
|ii-iinil\
,t 111''
\W\i
iK
J{ICHAU1) JIENHY WILLIAMS, Mayor «i Ucgni.i, nu Ixini,' duly swum,
deposed as follows ; -
.'5(1 lO.'J. ^^'e understand you ui'e Mayor of this eity .' — Yes.
.SC) ^().■5(^ What business or occupation ilo you follow ,' — I am a merehani.
.'51)101. How Ion;;' ha\e you I'esitled in the North-west Tenitories .' Ten yi'ai's last
Au'.Mlst.
.'J'! 10."). IImac you lesided all that time in Keyina ? — Yes.
!{()10.")//. l>id you ci)me here from one of the other j)rovinces .' J ri'sided about 18
nion' lis in \\ iiinijiej^.
;i()K)l). iiefore that did you come from one of the other provi pits ? "^'es 1 came
fr'jin t )ntario.
;il) (07. i'rom what eoiinty .' Kroni the County of Siineoe,
;{(»40><. \\'hat is the ])opulatioii of Jiegina.' I think in the neii;hbourliood of .'V'OU.
;}()4Uil. V'ou luuc a 'Icnvii Corporation, Mayor and Council, 1 suppose? — Yes.
.'{(UIO. |)oyou lliid this to be an orderly and law-.ibidini; jilace? — Yes, very
fairly so.
• )!i 111. Does it compare fa\'ourably wit h ot her places in which yoii ha\'e li\('d .' — Yes.
^llillli. Have y(>u had any "xperience und(?r the [lermit .system and the license svs-
tem which has just come into oj)eration on the 1st May la,st ? — •Y'^es.
■iliH.'i. As Mayor, have you had any practical experience in connection with the
liipior trallic in the course of your otticial duties* Do you preside at the Police Court ]
-Yes,
•'ilill I. ^'ou ha\<' nota Police Matjisiij'.te for the town .' No.
;l()-H.^. So you are ex-otticio Police Magistrate 'I — Yes.
■ilUKi. Taking the state of things before 1st ]May and since, have you noticed any
ditlcience / — In iny term of olhce before 1st May I did not have any cases before me in
ciinnection with the li(|Uor tiatli<', but since 1st May, T have had nine cases.
■ilillT. What was th>' character of the cases .^- People charged with drunkenness.
.")()41S. When did your term of ottice conniieoiie ? — This is iny second year.
•illll!). ^'ou never hail any cases up to that time? -Not of drunUi'imess, to my
knowledge. There might have been .so-.iie slight offences dismissed, but I do not
remember.
■')(')t20. What has been your experience, as a citizen, as regard to dl uiikenne,~-s on the
streets ? — In my opinion we ha\e had mo-eof itsince the license system came into force.
.■504:.'!. Which would be ycair own '.hoice, a license system or a jierinit syst^-m ? — I
prefer a ))eriuit sytteni, providing it was workable and enforced.
.'iltl'J'J. Have you had experience in anv other prohibition country than the North-
west Territories ? N(j.
•'l()4L'.'i. it has been state(l that under the permit system j..'o|ile would miTt a few
tViends in a house and keep up the drinking of liipior until it uas all consumed .' I
lia\c lu'ard that slated, but I have not been connected with it in any slwipe.
• itill'l. Are you a total abst.ainer .' - Not a total abst;uner.
•'ill II'.'). Are you fax nurable to prohibition ? I am more fa\ durable to it than to
the license system.
:!()4'J(). If y(air choice were coiilincd to the two. which one xvoiild you prefer total
prohibition ? — Yes.
.'il)427. Doyou, froiu your ex|ieiieuc<? of the prohibitory system h(>re, considei it
would be praclii'able to enforce a pmhibitory system ! I have been so little connected
with it that I could scarcely tcil you.
•'ill PJS. What about the' prohibitory clauses of tin liceiiNe law .' It wmild be wry
liillicult to enforce them according to tlie letb'r of the l.iw.
■'IGil!!). ] sujipose if would depend xcrv much on llie character of the man behind
ihcslle,' Yes.
•ifil'iO. How many places in Kcgina are licensed; 1 think lour hotels and two
wliuleside shops.
333
I ■;
■
1 ii
Hi
1
1
(
Liquor Tniffic — North-west Territoi'ios.
;}()4."51. Ha\c you iuiy idcii of tlie nuinht'i' of places in wliicli li(iuor was sold bcfoif
the license law oaiiic into operation? — Tiiat is a question that 1 am not ))i'e|iai'e(l tct
answer.
.■ft)4."{2. Do you Ijelieve it was sold illicitly / — Yes. I believe so.
364.'!.'^. Do you know in how many places it was sold? — No.
.■i()4;M. l)id you Knd the North-west ilounted Police force faithful in the discliar<;e
of their duties I — Yes, I think they performed their duties to the best of their know-
ledge and ability.
'.U)A',]^t. One of the stations of the force is here? — Yes, the headcpiarters of the
force are lure.
JAC<)J3 W. SMITH, of Uegina, hardware merchant, on being <luly swt.rn, dcpo.scd
as follows ; —
By Jndije McDonald :
Di'ti'M). Do you hold any otiicial position '.' -T holfl the position of Chairman of the
License Commissioners of this district, No. I.
.■?()4.'$7. How long have you held the otlice ? — .Since the olKce was created, on 1st Ma v.
3643S. How long have you resided in the North-west Territt)ries?--- About ten
years.
.■5t)4.'{it. Have you resided all that time in liegina /--Yes.
.■?t)4tO. Did you come from one of the other provinces ? — From < )iitario, from the
County of Lanark.
.''()441. Have you had any expei'ience of any other pr. 'hibitorv law than that of
the North-west Territories ! — 1 was in the County of Lambton undei' the Scott A<'t.
.■5()44l'. When was that 1-1 think the tirst month the Act came into torce. There
was Tiomi' (litliculty with respect to the law, and the Act was repealed after that montii.
;{(')4l."5. Then you did not have an opportunity of foi'ming an opinion in regard to
the law ? — It was hardly a fair test, of course.
.■{(')444. What has lieen your experience of the working of the i)rohibitory law in
the North-west Territories .' — I think it worked very well up to 1889.
.■<r)4 b"). Do you think li(|Uor was ke{)t out of the country? — It certainly was not
ke[)t out of the counti'v. There were pei'm its issued, and thus a certain amount \va>
allowed to come into the country.
."UilMJ. Were the police force vigilant? — Ws, and their powers were great.
'M)i 17. Were these )i()wers maintained as long as the Act remained in force ?--Not
to so great an extent as in former years.
.'56448. Do you consider that the force became less vigilant in later years ? 1
think so.
.■if)44!l. What is the ground of your opinion? Permits were issued more freely and
it became niore dilliiull ti) enforce the la\\.
.'?()b")(). Did they relax their vigiiaiu'C ? — They did, because so many permits were
issued that it was dilfii'ult to tell whether parties got drink in by permit or not. It w,i-
more ditlicult for the police to administer the law inider those circumstances.
.'ilib')l. Have you, as Chairman of the License Connnissioners, endeavoured honest) \
to carry out the pro\ isictns of the law .' -I have, so far as I have been ])ersonally alile
to do so.
.■{t)4o"_'. So far as you ha\e ob.ser\ed the operation of the license law, how have ymi
found it work? — In what way?
.'5t)4r);{. As regards licensees living up to the regulations? — F do not think tlieiegii-
lations of the law has been li\('<l uji to ; in fact, 1 know they have not.
.■lt'.4ol. Is that from otlicial information, or from your knowledge us a citizen? —
Not from my otlicial position, but as a citi/.en. From my per.sonal observation, and
from the amount of drinking I see, 1 know that the law is not lived up to.
RiciiAHit Hkniiv Williams.
334
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ised
Here
ird til
IIW 111
ilS lillt
lit wa^
-Not
Iclvaliii
were
It WHS
lonps
tl\
Voll
|i('i-e"ii-
l/.i'ii '
In, mill
.■ifUS"). AiiKiiig what fliiss is drunkenness? — Since 1st May tlie classes that liave
seemed to he affected tlie must are the lalioiii'intr chisses, the cominoii jieople and tlie
fanners.
.'((iioii. Alt' any (if tliesc llalf-hreeds, nr tlie oidinary white pujiulation .' — The white
jiii))ulatinn, what we would call respectable people in all other ways.
.'UiiriT. Were you ti'ouhled with illicit sale in l{ei,nna before the license law came
into force '. — Yes, we certainly were, because we could see the eH'ects of it.
.1(i4.')J^. Aiv you fa\ouialile tn general prohibition I — I am.
.■!()4-"')!). < )n pi'inciph^?- On [irinciph!.
•'i()4()0. in regard to the license system, are you favourable tu it or unfavourable .'
— T am favourable to it in pi-efei'ence to unlimited sale. I am in favuur' of any svstem
that will restrict the liipior traffic.
•'itlttil. Viiu do not like the license features in proiiibition ? -No. T think the piu-
hiliition part is all right.
.'UJItii.*. Without prohibition you think the license law is inexjiedieut f — L'eitainly.
/.'// /u'r. Or. Mi/.eod:
.'KUli.'i. What are your duties as Chairiiiaii of the License Comiuissionei's ? - The
duty of the Board is to look intu all applications that conu' before it for lice:\.ses, and to
decide wliether (he applicants have complied with the conditiims laid disvn in theOrdi-
iiaiiie. We ha\e also to consider the character (if the applicants thniugh the report (if
till' Inspectors.
.")(') M)4. lia\ e yi lu Inspectoi's fur this district ? — Yes ; there are three for the different
pairs (if the district into which this part of tlie country is divided, one f(jr the I'^ast, (nie
t'lir the West and one for Kegina.
.'itUCi-"). What are the conditidiis with which an applicant must com)ily ? — ()iie of
the conditions is, that the persun must f>btain the names (jf the nearest hnuseliolder s
Then there are certain conditions laid down with respect to the hou.se containing so
many rooms, anil a re|iort has to be made. We tlepend generally upon the report of the
I lispectiir.
.ililtili, Then the Inspector examines ieto these matters .md makes a report to the
liiiard? — Yes, and the Hoard decides whether the applicant has cmiiplied with th.^ con-
ilitidiis of the Ordinance, aiul if the man lie consi,'i"'ed ;i worthy man and if his place is
til to be lieen.sed, then he is granted a license. \\'here the conditions haxc not been
cemplied with, tlu^ applicant is refused a license.
;itU(i7. Dd you have to choose lietw(>en a iiLniiber of licensees in Hegiiia .' — Ndt in
Ivi'gina. There are no rivals in Uegina.
;Ui-K'>f>. In the nutside country, do ynu lia'.e ,i large luiniber of applications '.' Yes ;
iliere weie four or lixc ajiplicatidiis refused.
.'UiKi'.t. Were they refused be(.-aiise they ha(| not complied with the ciniditidns of
i| rdinance '. -Yes, proliably for that reason, and because they had nut honestly
secured the proper number (if naines.
."itilTll. 'J'lien has it come to the knowledge of the lioard that those parties whose
licenses weie refused were selling illicitly ,' -No, it lias not come to my knowleflge.
■'iiilTl. You say the Insi)ector"s duties are tn supc'vise generally a district ! — Yes,
uUlidiigh I think the law shduld be amended so far as the Inspecturs are cdiicerned.
•'ifll7'2. Are the Inspectors salaried men ^-No ; they ai'e paid by fees. } do not
tliiiik there is sutlicieni eiicoui'agenieiit under the () rdinance for them to do their duty.
•■{i)17;!. Is tliere a Chief Iri-pector for a district and sub-inspectors? — Th<\i-e is a
'liief rnspector ; lie occujiies th dual position of Insjiector and Commissioner, ois name
I •'. C. I'ope : he is called Chi"f License Fiispector.
• Ill 17 b Is he a idwii dtticia! / Nd, he is under the Ndii li-west (jl(jvernment.
A'// Jiiihjf Mrlliiiiiilil:
■ it)47"i. I think vnu said that all the provisions of the law were lixcd up to by the
111 cnsees. Uefore they were granted licenses were tlu ir applications investigatetl .'- -!So
t'li! as we could find out.
335
i : i^
Li(iuor Traflic — Noitli-wcst Territories.
3()+7<). It' tlicy firt' not proper j)('0])l(' to receive licenses, you refuse tlieni ? —Yes.
We lias'e discretion in our liiincls, ;uul wlien we tliink a jjcrson is not lit, we refuse liini
license.
.'i(U77. You (lid not exercise; those powers, I lielieve ? — No, l)eciuise tliei'C wiis a
division on the 15oai'd.
.'?()47''^. Were the majority in fa\our ot exercisinj,' those powers ?~ I lietieve part nt'
tiie iSoard took the j,'roun(l that they had a rii;lit to issue licenses to any one ]>ayin^'
for licenses.
.■it)47'J. Jfow many nienihers are thi'ref — Three, one from (^)n .\]i]ielle. one fr'om
Moose Jaw and myself from li(\i,'ina. 'I"he dist liet is from Indian Head to .Moose .law.
about i)U miles.
Kiev. JOHN H. KIX(;, of He^ina.
>n lii'iiiu' duly sw<irii, dej
luseii a^;
follows : —
Jii/ Jiuhji' McVoiKild .
Church.
l5(!t.S0. \\'ith what church are you i onnected '.' — I am a minister of the liaptist
.■{t^'"'!, How loll!.' have you resided im Henina .' ( )ne yeai' and three months
:5(i|Sli. Where tlid vou reside before that time.' In St. John, N.I'..
Hi, R.u: Dr. Mr I .-
'MiS'-\. What 111 ■ l)eeii your e\perieiic<^ of the liiiuor tralli.- in the North-west T(
tories durinu' l\'v luie vi'ar you lia\e been here, diiriiii; the early jiart of which there wie-
jiei'mit .system in force and durint; the latter ]iart of which
■it of Mav last, th
has been a license .system .' — I ob.serve that there is as much drinking and disorder uiuli
license as under pi-ohibiti(
.{01)^4. You think in K
la there has been
more disorilei' and clnnkinj,' since tin
license law came into force.' T think so
i()4S5. l)i(l you observe the working of the so-called prohibitory law sutlicieiitly
detect the faults of that system, if tlu're were any f What, in your opinion, w
weak jioiiit of tiie system ' -The indiscriminate fjjranting of permits.
.-as tl
;i64>'l). 1 lave you reason to belie\e permits were granted ipiite iiidisciiminaiely
;U11S7, What w
oiihi
lead
vou to entertait
that
Tl
e ciintinuous sale ovt
the 1)1
;i()4SS. Was there contin
iioussa
lein H
na prior to the license system :
I beli
itib'^!'. You came here after the introduction <if the four per cent beer jilan, 1
believe?— I think
so.
.•i(141IO. And there wius sal
Tl
lere seems
to ha\e been no ))rii\ isiiiii fur sales in
the early pai't of tlie permit days. Permits wei'e given for medical pin')
supposed to be so given ; but umler the four pel' cent system, which i'
it seems there was ju'ox ision for si>lling foui' jier cent beer.
loses, iir were
ame in abmit lS8ti,
iti4i)l . You obserxed then
was sale 111 netiina
Wi
the town,
end of the pro
d this iiiMiiiiiii' 'hat the
re was sometliiiii: o
th
Was that kind of tliiiijj conn
iliibii
noil prior to license
if disorder last night in
' — 1 was here at the lattei
mil ilav>. ail'
I ne\er lieartl of such thinys or observed then
:t(i41l-'i. l)o vou tra\('l about the country In
l.hiite a
little
ndles, in uood weather.
•W \\> I. And you c<iii
if far
le ill contai't with a ;,nMM| iiiaiiv pe.iple
within a radiusof Mi
(•■-, with a nuiiiiicf
liiers.
;(i4!>r). Hi
ive yon
had
an\' ojiiioi
itmiitv of observin;
what IS the
feeling of th
peoj
lie irenei
ally as to the drink trade, whether the' think it sli<iuld be licensed or ant
-I think the people hold that the trallic should In prohibited, if it c'luld b( di
A( (in
W. S
M It'll.
330
Ktllt
■B
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No 21.)
A. 18d4
\tly to
IS ihf
ill' iivci-
icvosd.
iilan. I
los ill
r weff
SS'.i.
liu'lit ""
liiHn
us of :'!'
iniiii'"'''
(it' tlif
.,!■ :ioi :
11'.
.'UUyO. Hiivo you t'ound that tliere was eonsicleral)le ilissatist'actioii witli llic'|)»>ri»iit
,sy>*tein as it was adininistei'od?- Thero was.
.■{6-iy7. l)i) you think till' t'eeliny of the people ".as in ojiposition to pi'iinits hciiii,'
iiiven, or to prohibition ? — They had an objection to permits being j;iven.
.'^G'iOtJ. If it was a 4|uestion of prohil)ition rernini license, wliat wonld be the result ?
• -1 have good reason to believe, there would be a niajoi'ity in favour of |)i'ohi)>itinn.
;}049y. Do you think in tht country places wher ■ you visit there is a desire fur the
cstablislunent of liquor selling j)laces ? — 1 do not.
;{C500. I need scarcely ask you if you are in syinpii:iy with the views expressed by
your IxKly, and whether you believe in general prohibition or not? — I do.
.'UioOl. Do you think it would be safe to enact a general jirohibitoi-v law and take
liic ciiance of its enforcement? --I think so, if the voice of the ueople is to that ellcct, as
the Government has a I'ight to obey the wishes of the people.
By Judge McDonald :
;3Gr)02. What is your view of the license system? — My view is that it is not expe-
dient. It may be a good thing so far as it restricts the tratHc.
.■5(;.*)03. Then you are !iot opposed on princij)le to the licensing of the traffic ? — No.
.'50504. You have stated that permits were granted indiscriminately. What reason
liave you for saying so? — The statements of iiulividualr-.
;5().")0r». Which you have heard repeated, I suppose ? — Yes.
.'5Gr)0G. You have spoken fif tiie sale of licjuor illicitly hmt l)ais. 1 lid you nieiin
other than four pel' cent bet-r ?- -I could not say.
31)507. You do not know whether any drunkenness was caused by four per cent
i)eer or not? — No.
.'{6508. Ho you do not know whether tlu; permits had tr) do with the incicascd
(ininkenness? — I am not sure.
.'il)50!). You know nothing of that ? — No.
;>t)510. You have stated that you believe the sentiment of the people is in favour ,)f
prohibition and against license. Taking your residence here for one year, your know-
ledge of the Territories and your experience in liegina and 20 miles beyond, whom ilo
you think really posses.ses the better knowledge of the feeling of the people, the oHicers
of the North-west Mounted Police or yourstjlf? — That would depentl on what o{)por-
uiiiities they possessed to study the feeling of the people.
136511. Judging from the experience of the prohiliitoiy system so far as it pi'evailed,
who would possess the better knowledge of the practicability of enforcing a general
liidhi'oitory law, you or the othcers of the Mountetl Police? — 1 sujipose they would, if
till y were faithful to their duties.
;i65i2. Have you retison to believe that they were not faithful in the discharge of
'lii'ir duties? — The reason that is commonly given is, that in some ciiscs they were not
laithftil to their duties.
:>r)5i;3. Can you specify the locidity and name the place and party. I nie.in the
inialiiv where they were not faithful to their duties, and the ntinu^s of the pei'sons who
made that statement? — I could not do it. 1 could refer to instances in the town, but I
could not give na^s ; I mean instances which came under my own pei-sonal obser-
\ation.
•'U'>514. Did you call their attention to those cases? — 1 did.
.'<65I5. What did they say? They did not stiy anything. It was not an o'Mcial
notice, but a notice in pi'ivat(^ and in the papers.
•■<6516. You did not give notice through an ofticer, then '.- Ves.
•'56517. Do you mean by speaking among friends? — Yes, and in my public capacity,
.'56518. Do you mean from the pulpit ?— Yes, befoi-e ajid after.
36519. Do you hold any official position in the temperance order ;— No, ] am only
ii iiu'iiiber of it.
.'16520. Did you ever call the attention of the Li(iUtenant-(to\ernoi or of any of his
utlici'i's to those alleged infractions? — No ; for I hail good reason to Ijelieve they would
not he attended to.
•56521. You <lid not do it, as a matter of fact? — No.
21-22**
! 'i'
i
*■
P
I
^c^
«5|
if.
Ih
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
."it ').")•_'•_'. ^'iiii (lid nut test wlu-tluT your coiupliiiiit would be attfinlcd to or not ? —
No.
','t\\'i'2'.'>. I)id you call tlic attention of tlii' Coniniissiutior ot' tlit- .Mounted Police tn
tliat mutter? I did not.
,■{(5524. ilii\e you luid jiny experieni/e of |iroliil)ition in any otliec place tlian liei'c '
— To ii iiniited extent in New l''run.-.^wick.
'M\'y2^). In what jiart / -Ks|j<('idly in St. .lolni County.
.'U>.")2ti. Had you any expeiieiice in Portland '. - Yes.
.■)().")'J7. Mow was proliilntion enforced there ? The Seott Act was enforced to a
limited extent ; hut owinu' to the appfoachiii!,' union of the two cities, St. John and
Portlanil, almost every one was aj^ainst it.
."{tia'JS. I>o you tinnk it worked well to a linnted extent .' -Yes.
.■U).")2!t. I>id the otlicials see it enforced there ? — They did latter';/.
.'{(i.j.'JO. Aiul in the end it was repealed .'—Yes. in that part or St. John.
.'Ui.T.'U. Have you had any other experienc<' of prohihition except in New r.riin'..\\ icl
and ill the North-west Territories?- -That, i.s ail.
A'// /,'rr. I)r Mrl.r,>,l :
'M'uVl. l)o you know whether any htcal (|uestions or dilllculties interfered witli liic
better enforcement of the Act in Portland; — Yes. The Council were pressed to appoint
an Inspector, which they did not do, antl there was nohudy to enforce the law.
;{(■>").'?:!. Did you oliser\(' thewoikiiii; of the Scott Act in St. Martin's, in thcCouniy
of St. John ? I did.
:)(ir);i4. Jlow did it work there \ It worked well, with the exception of the last --i.N
months, and e\cn then convictions were obtained when (U'osei'Utions were institutetl,
.■{(i"):}."). Speakin.i; of the license .system, do you approve of the license or the ]ir(ilii-
bition in the system '. Thi' prohibition in the system.
:!().■».'{(■). I )o you approve of iiceiis(< only so far as it tMnbodies prohibition, or do \iiii
apj)ro\eof iierinissioii, uhicli permits pco|)lc to si-H .' — ( Inly so far as the syslein i-
prohibitory.
.S().").'$7. Have you any knowjedme wliicli will enable you to express an t)piidon as \^>
whether the Legislature of the Teiritori<'S ex|ii'cssed the deliberately declared will of l!ii
people by the enactment of a license law ? I have knowlt>dife which leads me to believe
that they did not : in iiiy opinion, it was a breach of trust ; that is the action of th''
[iei,'islatuie in enactini;- a license law independent to a lari;e extent of the \oice of I lie
people.
Ily Jn(l<ic Me niidiihl :
.'iti.'i.'iS. >'ou ;;ave t hat last answer, the expression of your opinion that the Leui---
laturc had been u'uiltv of breach of trust, from what you have heard individuals say .' -
Y'es. ■ ■ ■ '
.■iti.").'ill. li;is that opinion been expressed at a imblic ^atherinj.;- of the ])eople cillcd
for the purpose of considering that proposition ,' Has any member of the Legislaiim'
been lalled upon to resign his seat for having voted in fa\tiurof license '. - Not tliai I
know of,
.'{(in p,». Ho you know instances in which the people have taken the necessary s|c|l^
to pre\ent licenses beiir,' issued by calling for a vote of tiie people on the subject, a>
urovided for in the ( >r(linance f — Not that I know of, as \ct.
•'!()."> 4 1 . And uiidei' the law ]
>rovisu)n w
as made at the \erv outset to enalilciln
peopi
to eh
to d(
bef
T
was labouring under the impression that a certaii
rth of time li.i'
'ore action could be tak
en.
.'{().■■) 11!. Pi-i)\isioii was made that this action could betaken by the peo]
lie at 111'-
itset, Jiut it has been stated that the reason whv it was n(jt dc
ras the f;ul lli.U
tl
peo]
itl
le
le dlttnuh v
I
iCL'!
;lat
of 8 --'00.
re(|uired to deposit Si'OO before the \'ote could be taken, aiul tha
Yes, that was found to be a ilitlicult\
amendment maile to the law.
1 \Vil~
.\t the last session "t tin'
ure there was an
Si 00 was
user
ted
lllStC'lU
Ki:v. John H. King
338
lilill
BBi
i*^.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ion iis til
ill of t!lr
Ihr 1.
|.e,i;isliiniii
ut that I
:aiv
• lUllili- nil
tiiiii' hai
t'iiol th.i
ll thilt \v:i
;}t).")4U. You siiukf of 8t. Miirtins, ,iiul mciitioned tlmt duriiij^ rlic lust six inoutlis
tlid law WHS not satist'iictorily fiirr'icd out. In what way was it not satist'actorilv cn-
t'orccd .' — 'i'lic fact was that tlii' olliccis w^tc the wrong person^, in tiic i-sf iuiation of the
peoplf.
.'$(')."» It. l>o ynu mean they were not in sympathy with tlic ('aforccnieiit of the law ?
Yes, and tlu'i'c were proofs ni that.
;i().")|."i. I$y whom Wfi'i> the ollirials appointed? I do not know.
.■W)54ti. Were thfv appointed hy the .Munii'ipai Couneil '. I think so.
•'?t)-")t7. The ]\[uniL'ipal C/ouiieil represented the people; they were olecled hytiie
people, were they not .' — I think so.
.■!(ir)4H. How, then, does it oeeur that such ollieers were appointed in the eoniinu-
iiity wliere the people wi>iiod to have the law enforced ! Perhaps they obtained ollice
hy corrupt means ; tliey sometimes did so.
.'il').") I'.). If the majority of tlie |)eopli' were in favour of the Scott .Vet and itsenforee-
iiii'iit, and yet solei'led otlicers who were not in favour of (he Act, wiiat was the ejuise ?
— I tiiink this matter wjis lost sight of at the time of the elections.
;}().").')0. You think it must luue heen lost sight of .'—Yes, and other issues must
liave come up.
;)(').").")1. What led to such men heing in favour with the temperance people of the
r.iinmunity and s(Hiiring election .' — 1 do not know.
% /i'-r. Dr. M<-Lrnd:
."iti ■")")•_'. Are \<iu aware that the Scott Act has bcfii repealed in the (ountv of St,
Joliii since you left theri' ' — I am not aware of it.
.■!(').■).").'{. Concerning jjuhlie feeling about the license system, do you
any portion of the people of the Territories |ielitione(l the L<'gislat
oil the ([uestion of j>r(jhil)ition '. — Not to my knowledg(?. Since J liavt .,v..,.. ..^ ..,..,,.,„ ,„
1 have known of petitions being signed anil presented to diOerent 3Ieniber.s ; in .-.ouie
cases they were presented and in others were l\ot presented.
'i(i.")r)4. Ki'terring to the issue of licenses at certain places, it appears that no
portion of the Territories has taken steps to jirevent the issue of licenses. I think
yoii said that you had arrived at the conclusion that this was l)ecause they could not
act at that time ? — I had that impression. The wording of section 48, sub.sectio!i 2,
makes |)rovision for that, and after stating altout the 8200 it goes on to say that when a
iv(|iiisitii)n is presented •' re((uesting a vote to be taken as to whether oi' not such license
shall issue or be gi'anted therein, it shall be the duty of such ("ommissionei', upon the
ri<cipt of such reijuisition and the said sum of two hundreil dollars, to scrutinize the
names of the electors attached to .such requisition, and being satisfied that the names so
att.ulied are those of duly (pialitiefl electors,'" ;i poll shall be taken. Then there is
pio\ ision nwule for taking tlu^ poll, after ]iosting a regular notice in one of the papei's
fi)r six weeks. The clau.se continues : •• Such [kjII shall be hi-ld in the month of October
or November ne.xt ensuing, except for the year |S'.)2, when the poll shall In.' hekl in th(,'
iiiimili of March, on such ilay as shall be most convenient, and not less than four weeks
.111(1 not more than seven weeks from tlu^ date of the first publication of such notice."
know uhether
L<'irislature for a plebiscite
)eeii in this town.
Bjl Jndrjc McDonald :
."id").')."). When did you aciiuire that Ivnowkn
-About the time of the agitation.
iHlge
.'il)3.")(i. Did you look into the matter? — Y'es.
•■<t')").")7. I>id you find it impracticable?— Yes.
:iG.').")S. You say it would be imiiracticable to carry out thetparlof the law/ — Y'es.
Bij Rer. D)\ McLfod:
.'It).").')!). You believe it impracticable ? — Yes.
■iiiritiO. Do you mean to say that you belie\e it to be impracticable under tli
iiviiuistances ? — Uiuler the circumstances as they were — not that it is impossible.
339
21--22i*
Liquor Traflic — Nortli-wost Tei'iitories.
JA.MKS (.'!{ HA.M I'^lt, nf l{i'f,'iiia. M'icriiiarv sur^'oon, on hi'in^^duly sworn, tle|n»stMl
as follows ;--
By ,/ii<i(/r Mi'Dmiiild :
'M\')i\\. How lonji lia\t' you lixcd in lif;,'inii? -Aliout six ycuis.
:{f>r)(')L'. VVlicni (lid yon reside het'ore thiit ?--Tn Ontario.
.■>•)")('(.■{. Ill what part ? I eanie tVoni tlie I'ounty of Middii-sex.
.'It)ri(i4. Wliat law was in force tliere in re;,'ard to the li(|uor tratlic .' — A license lau.
.■!(').')()"). l)id the Scott Act come into forci- lu'fore you left Ontai'io f- No.
.■5Gr)(Ui. Have you had much experience of a pmhihitory law anywiiere else than in
the North-west Territories .' — No.
.'td.")!)?. Since 1st .May a license law has lieen in force, T helieve ?— Yes.
.■?(i.")t)8. Takini; the prohibitory enactment as it was enforced, and the license law
since 1st of May, which do you tind to lie |ireferal»le .' The license law,
.'JGofiO. hid vniitind that liiiuor was hroui^hi into tlu^ country under the old system/-
Yes.
36570. We understand lliatuf^reat deal of li(|uor was siiiUL;;;led into the count ry .'
It was.
."iCi.JTl. it has also heen slated that some of the iiiiuor was of very poor (piality ? — Yes,
.■<6572. And that pain-killer, eau de Coloj,;ne and othei'suhstances of that kind wciv
used by the peojde for lieverafje purposes. Have you any knowled;;eof that f - Yes. 1
have known red ink to lie u.sed.
'M\'u'.\. You say you have known of red ink lieinj; used? — Ves.
.'i().")74. Who were the people who used those li(|uids ? I could not say particidai i\,
the ]teople who lived in th<? North-west Territories.
.■U).")75. Was (hat practice cr)nfine(l to any particulai- set of people? — N<
not apply il to any particular set.
.■iGr)7(>. It ha.s Keen ('('presented that those compounds wei( only use<l liy
— Yes, to a certain extent.
.■{(jr)77. Were they u.sed by others as well ? -Pain-killer, 1 think, was.
;i(i.")7S. Wliat about the case of red ink .' — That was used by contirmed topcirs.
;3().'")7'.>. Do you know any other sul)stances that were used ? Wtr have heard of Si,
Jaoobs's Oil beint; used. — 1 have heard so, but J never saw it useil.
.■5()."),H(), We ha\e been told that Florida water was used? — Yes.
Bdo^l. Have you reason to believe that the North-west Mt)unted Police endea\ ound
to carry out the law ? — Yes, T think so.
.■{().")8'_>. Were they vigilant ? — I think so.
.■5().')8."5, You have no rea.son to doubt their faithfulness, and that they did their \ cry
best to carry out the law so far as it could be carried out? — Not at all.
.■i6r)84. From the experience you have liad, do you think it would be pructicahlc to
carry out a prohibitory law for this country? — I do not.
Bif Bev. Dr. McLtod :
;.U)r)85. Why do you think license i.s preferable to prohibition ? — Because I think
the majority of the people will have liquor any way ; if they cannot get it legally, tln'V
will
> ; 1 woiil
old topci-
get it .some way.
3(558(1. Do you think it is well to liave it provided for them? — Yes.
."56587. Do you think the liipior trade is at all injurious to the people ?— No, I d'l
not, not tlie licensed lii]uor tratlic.
;5()588. Do you think tlnMiidicensed liipior tratlic is injurious? — Yes.
.S()58y. Why is tlie trathc injurious when unlicensed and when licensed it is nut(—
Becau.se men do not drink with any regularity.
.36590. Does the dirt'erence between benefit and injury consist in the diflercme
between regularity and irregularity ? — To a very great extent, I think.
365'Jl. You spoke of tlie use of red ink and pain-killer. What did their use .iinl
the use of other such articles signify ? — 1 do not understand your ijuestion.
J.liMKS CUEAMEH.
340
<
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. "Jl.)
A. 1894
■iivmii'i'ii
sticiiblf to
illy, til'
hi IS
(lifVoiviKf
h- UM'
.■t(jr)lti!. What ilid tlicir use sitf|iit'\ nw tin- pai't of' the |h'ip|(|c wlm usimI llwiii ,' - 'I'lial
llicy wiuitcfl a iiiilil stiiiiiiiuiit.
.■<(>")!).■?. Is led ink a iiiilil stiiiiiilaiit .' I niuld iiul tell yiiti, I iicvrr diaiik it.
.'Uirj'.n. Art' ri'd ink and |pain-killfi- niildcr t'miiis uf stiinidant>. than whisky and
hiur J)t'i' ci'iit ht'ci' and the like/ Ni», 1 think not.
."itir)!)'). |)u you nut tliink tiiat tiicy arc lathi-r strnn^'cr ! Tlicy wnuld lie with inf.
.'((iri'Jt). Tiicn the iiiicstinn ayain cunics, what docs their use sj^^nity hcycind tlic t'act
that the |pc(i])|c want stimidants ,' hid it siirnit'y tliat they had <nnl ractcd the liahit of
ilrinkinj; stinmlant.-., an<l, in the ahscncc of whisky would haxc sonicthin;; whether it was
|iiue alcoiiol oi' not? I su]piiose it did.
.'!t)")97. I>id ymi ever know |iersons to form the lial)it of drinkiiiLf stiniulauts through
lining pain killer, Tiionias's eleetrie oil, eastoi' oil, red ink, and the like! — I eannot say
I did.
.'itirjllS, I )id you ol)ser\e that iho-e persons who iiad hi come hahitualed to the use
lit whisky, in the al»enie of whisky, le^orled to ^uih diinks .' Tiiev weie not in the
iiiiiiority.
;i(i"i',l!l. hoyini think lliey were in the minority? ^'es.
.'itidUU. I >o you liiink that if mo--l |ieo|i|e rould gel li(|Uor tiiey would not I'esort to
|.;Liii killer '. 1 thitd< -mi.
.■iiKlOl. .So was it in the interest of tiie iieople tiiat the drink trade wa.s estahlished ?
^'es : hut ynii |)Ut it in a (|ueer way. i do not think men as a rule would re.sort to
Mil ink if they could not get liijuor ; I do not think the majority would do so. T rather
think they would resort to some means to get lii|uor, and I think they would get it.
.'iti(i02. AX'ould they smuggle it in '.'-- -^'e^.
.'iCiGO.S. You do not believe in the iirinci|ile of ])i-ohiliition '. — No.
litldOl. Then, if it were practicable, you would not l)elie\e in prohibition '. No, I
do not believe in it.
.'illCO."). Do you think the drink trade is in any way injurious to the welfare of the
I'linnnniity physically, morally or socially ! No.
.'iti()l)('), Ha\e you seen any e\il elVects from the trad(> .' The evil I'csults you would
liiid would be \ery few.
fii/ Judge McDunahl :
■'ilJOOT. Would you .say that those e\ ils w Inch you lia\e seen icstdtcd from the drink
tiadc or the drinking habits on the part of the people who purchase liipmr ? -They were
due to drunken habits.
."UiGOH. Take the coninuinity as a whole, would you say the projMU'tion of those who
ilriiik to excess would foi'ni a lai'ge ]iro]M)ition of the people oi- a small )noportion ? -A
Miiiall one,
.'i(i()0!t. As 1 undei'stood your answer to l)r. ,McLeod, you said that under tiie old
■-ysteui the majority who wished to drink got liiiuor in one way or another, either by
Iiermit or by smuggling? — Yes.
."UiGlO, Hut that the use of red ink was confinerl to the nunority. Suppose a pro-
hibitory law wei'e passed, a law to do away with the manufacture, importation and sale
of alcoholic licjuors for Ijeverage pur]ioses, do you think it would lie right that tht.' brew-
ers :u\i\ distillers should recei\e remuneration for their loss of plant .' That isaipiestion
1 liiue never given thought to, and I cannot give an intelligent answer in regard to it.
Jiy R>-r. Dr. McL.wl:
•'U)(ill, Do you see any relation between the di'iidv trade and the drink habit ? —T
suppose there is,
•'!()(;12, Do you think the establishment of facilities to drink promotes drinking? —
1 lainiot say from my ex[ierience here that it does, but from experiences elsewhere, I
think it tends to do .so,
;5()(il3. Do you think prohibition increases it? — Yes,
3tiG14, Anil licensing the ti'ade diminishes it ? — Yes,
i :: 1 1
341
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WEBSTER, NY. 14S80
(716) 873-4503
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Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
ALFRED 1). \Vl{l(iHT, of l{e<finii, Lirensc InsiH'ctor, mi h«'inir <1uly sworn, Heposefl
as follows :—
5/ .
i'i
i'ii
. [i\
PI
till
\i »
By Judge MrDonnliI :
.'U)(iir). Wliiit is your busiiiesis ?— -I ;ini an undertaker.
^{GfilG. Do you hold any official position ! 1 do. ^
.'{•)(} 17. What is it f -I am License LispjHtor.
."ifiClH. J-low long have you reside*! in Kejfina ( -Alniut !'» months.
.'56011). Where did you reside liefore that time? -At ]{ichmond Hill, near Toronto.
.'{6(520. How Ion)? have you Iteen Inspector of Tjioen.ses here ? — Since the license .sys
tern came into force. I was apfxiint^'d some time Itefore then, as T hml Ut examine tin-
premises of ay)plicants.
.36621. Then you have Ijeeii in office since the new law eami' into force, and ym
weri' iippointe<l at that time? — Yes.
3r)622. There are certain duties you are called upon to perform under the Act, such
as inspt^cting the premises, etc. ? — Yes.
866l'.'5. Have you endeavoured to carry out the prt>visions of the law? I have.
;J6624. Do you believe you have done so with success? — I have tried to successfully
perform my duties.
.'$662'). Have you found any difficttlties in the way ?— I have.
.'56626. What are they ? One is that 1 have Ut see a man violate the law ov get in-
formation from some one who saw the law violated. I did not tinfl parties who woujil
take the oath that they saw the law violated, and so 1 was unable to prosecute. In oin-
case I was not allowed to pii»ceed, Iw'cause we had not sufficient proof to prosecute the
party concerne<l. 1 spoke to the Chief Insjiector, Mr. J. C. Pope, in regard to the matte?-.
.'16627. Uut he tho\ight you must have more proof on which to prosecute? — Ye.s, he
.-.■'id .1 vi.is not a suk- case to go ahead with.
;i662H. Sk you did not go on with the case? — \ did not.
.'5()62!). Taking the systems as you have seen them, the jH'rmit and the license sy<
tem, which, in your opiniim, is jireferable?— -At the time I was here the permit .system
was not enforced very strictly, yet T would jirefer it U> the one we have now.
.'566.'W. Are you a prohibitionist in principle ? Yes.
.'56631. What is your opinion of a license system, I do not mean the license law
that may l)e in force in any eonununity, but tlie licensing of the traffic ; do you reganl
it as a right or witmg system ? I think it is not right.
;566.'52. Y(ju l)elieve it is wrong in principle to license the traffic? -I do. 1 believe
iji limiting the number of houses selling.
.'566.'5.'5. But as a matter of j)rinciple. you think the license system wrong? -Yes.
:566:54. Then if you cannot get prohibition, you think it would l)e better to ha\''
a license system ? — Yes, the protective part fif the license system.
.'566.'5.5. You say that you lM>lieve the licensing of the traffic is wrong in i)rinci|ile.
Then you say that if you could not get prohibition you think the license .system is tin-
next best thing. Nf>w, would you prefer (he license system or untrannnelled sale ami
no law at all ?— 1 think I would .sooner have the license system.
.■566;56. Then you think it l)»'tter to have a license .system than untrammelled sale '
-Yes.
.'566.'5r. And that is owing to the prohibitive clauses in the license law ?- Yes.
.'566.'58. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, wou' 1 you favuin
tite granting of compensation to brewers and distillei-s foi their loss of plant? — i would
not.
366:51>. Under the ])ermit system, had you reason to l)elieve that people wei-e selliiiL;
illicitly ?"-I fio not know, Imt 1 supp»se they were.
•'56640. You are a total abstainer, I suppose ? — Yes.
.'56641. You have not partaken of li<|Uor at those license<l places? — I never tjisteil in
. Alfred D. WRUiiir.
.'542
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Hy Rev. Dr. McLeod.
;?6642. Your duties reiiuire you to make inspection to see that tiie provisions of the
law, so fur as applicants for licenses are concerned, are fulfilletl. Do you ha\e to keep
(111 tlie watch to see that the law is not violated ? - I have.
86()43. Do you receive any salary ? — A small one.
.S6<>44. Are your duties confined to Regina ? -To Regina district.
.'M)64r». That covers a large territory, I suppose ? — It does.
.'{0(540. Do you have to visit outlying places at certain times? — No. At least I do
not. unless an information comes in to me.
■"{0047. Is your salary sufficient to warrant you in going to visit outlying places? —
We are paid so much for each hotel licensee we catch violating the law. We are also
ji.iid accoitling to the number of licenses granted ; we now receive .*2.*) for each hi>tel or
wholcsjile license granted.
.■>0048. In case you obtain convictions against any person for violation of the law
(111 yiiu receive any part of the fine?— I cannot tell you whether I would receive .*.*) or
not in the shape of expenses. If I had to lea\e town, 1 suppose 1 wciuld be paid.
.50049. I un<lerstand you lived in Ontario Ijefore you cami' here? — Yes.
.'{00.">0. As the (juestion of compounds has been fi'e(|uently referred to, I might ask
\ I HI whether you know anything about their use in the towns of Ontario! I do. I
ii'iMcniber Patterson's Foundry, on' and a half miles frrmi Richmond Hill. There was a
man who had "pain-killer ' in th'! foundry. The men would take a drink of pain-
killer from the bottle, and then a cup of water.
.'10051. Have you any knowledge whether painkillei' was used in the Territories
liet'iiif the license system was introduced ? — Not except from what I heard.
•'>G0.'J2. Do you think painkiller is a worse coiniiound to use nmler license than
uniitT piohibition ? — No.
IM.
i ' i i
|{i:\. AXtiUS .1. McLKOD, of Regina, on being duly swurii. deposed as follows : —
III/ .Tiiilye Mi'Dniinld .-
."«(it').*i:{. In what work are you engaged ? — I am engaged in the Indian IMucational
Work.
'>li()."»4. At what institution? — At the Regina Indian .School.
.'ttiC).")."). Of what church ar" you a minister? Of the Vresbyterian t'hufcli.
;!00."»0. Is tiiat schof)l under the control of the church .' It is controlled entirely
liy the Government, which has placed the school under the Prcsbyteiian Church. The
'imiili luvs something to do with the appointment of otficeis. The system }»re\ails in
vlic North-west of the religious bodies being connected with the institutions more oi' le.ss.
.'tii(i.''»7. How long have you resided here .' Since the opening of the school, a little
MMi- a year and a half.
'(iti.'iS. Did you come here from one of the other piov iiices .' — T came from .Medicine
Ihii
'>ii0.''>9. How long were you there? — One year.
'■•iOOO. Where were you previously ? — At Ranff. where T had Ihmmi two yi-ars.
■iOOOl. Where were you previous to that time? I was foniierly in Toronto.
.'10002. So you are of the Province of Ontrtrio? — T am.
.'10063. What years were you at Rantf? 1S8H and 1889.
.'>00(»4, Were you there as a resident minister ? — 1 was.
ilOOO.'i. What was the state of things there in i-egard to the li«|Uor traffic! -There
w.is ciinsiflerable agitation alwut the traffic.
•tOOOO. Was the permit system in force ? — Yes.
10007. Were there anv hotels there at that time? — There was. Tliert- was a
8iiiiitaiium there.
348
i-
il^
rrrr
ii» i'
(ill^
Liquor Trnftic — North-west Territories.
.'JCridJS. Wiia tlit're sale iit those places ? — I could not say that theit" wiis, Ijut tiiere
was su{)|X)s(h1 to Ix).
.'16669. W«T«' tliei't' any complaints made of li(|Uor l)eing smuggled in from British
Columbia ? -Then' were.
;U)(»7U. How fa;' wfic you from the British Columbia boundary ?- Alx»ut 60 miles.
.'<6071. Did you ever hear anything of i.-ompounds, .such as pain-killer, eau de
Cologne and Florida water <)eing used in that section of the North-west Territory? — 1
heard referen(;es to their use.
:<<)ti7_'. You saw nothing of such use yourself? — Nothing.
.■{()67."5. How did you find things at Medicine Hat? — I found things about tin-
same as in the n ountains.
.■W)67l. I suppise no ii(|Uor is allowed at the Indian School? — No.
.■1667"). It is kept strictly away from the pupils? — ^Yes.
.■Uif)76. What are tiieages of your pupils? — From four or five years up to eighteen
yeais.
.'{6677. Do you find any attempts nia<le to smuggle in liquor there? — No, not by
the children. We remember that it is dangerous to give them litjuor because they have
an ap|M!tite for it.
.'Witu**. The only way is to keep it entirely away from them ?— Yes.
.'{667!). Have you found any effort made to bring it in by the inmates ? No, tlif
boys are t(M» young to work for that, although one lM»y ackmiwledged that he liked linuor
and would drink it if he had the chance.
.■?66S0. Has it U-en brought in at all ! There were Indians who came in under tlif
inlluem f it ; in the course of the year I have only seen two such instances.
.■56(>SI. Are you ynuiself favourable to prohibition ? — I am.
'MWf<-2. As a'matter of principle? Yes.
.'U)68.'{. What is your view in regard to licensing the trurtic : do you consider ir
right or wrong in principle? -I think it is wrong.
.'566S4. Incaseoftlie enactment of a general prohibitorj' law, would you deem
it right and just that brewers and distillers .should receive renuineration for plant ami
machineiy rendered useless? — I think not.
H;/I{>v. Or. Mcl.eod:
.'U)6S.''». Which is the better fi>r the Indians, prohibitinn even attended by a jierniit
system, or the license system? I think prohibition.
.'<66S6. W'liich do you think is preferable to the white settlers, prohibition with tli<
laxity of the permit system, or a license .system as it now exists? — T think the for ci-
system, with all its faults, was l)etter.
Itij Jiidtj^ Mclhnuihl :
366S7. What has l)een your experience ? — I had <x'casion to travel a go<Kl deal in
the mountains in British Columbia and I have seen, notwithstanding the vigilance >'(
the Mounted Police, a gootl deal of liipior snmggled into the Territories.
36688. Within the Innits of the North-west Territories ?— Yes.
36680. Was it your opinion that the |)olice were vigilant ? Some were extremely
vigilant.
Riv. Ajfofs J. McLeod.
H44
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
\. 1894
ENOCH COLPITIS, nf Moose .fiiw, gat-dener, <iii Ijeiiig duly sworn, (iei)o.se<i as
follows : —
By Judy; McDimalrl :
.3()690. How long Imve you resided iit Moose .Jaw ? — Neiirly 10 yeiirs.
.'1(5691. Have you resided anywhere else in tlie Territories ( No ; I resided in
Winni|H»g one year.
H6C92. Did you eome from one of the other provinces?--! came from King's, New
Pirunawick.
Jiy Kfv. Dr. McLeod :
mav Ih' called
id
.'{669.'{. T suppose any one who has reside*" here 10 years
resident ? — Yes ; Moose .law wi4s young when I came here.
.'56694. How many people were there when you went ? — The population at that time
was generally a floating population. T supjwse there were about 600 jieople when T lande<l
there in 18.s;J.
.'56695. Was it during the wjiistruetion of the railway ( Yes, during that sunnner
there were at different times over 1,000 men, luit they were moving all the time.
.'{6696. Has Moo.se .Jaw steatlily inorea.sed in p<ipulation ? — Not steadily : it has done
so (iuring the last few yeais.
.'56697. What is al)out the population now ( — 1,000.
.■1669?<. It is a farming community, I suj)pose ? It is the centre of a farming .md
stock-raising district and a railway terminus. There are railway shops.
36699. Do a numljer of railway employees reside there '! — Yes.
.'56700. During 10 years' residence here you have had opi)ortunity to carefully
ohserve the systems in force in regard to the lii|uor tr.artic? — Yes.
36701. SVliat is your observation of the permit system ? -During the I'lrst years .>f
my residence in M<x)se.Jaw the permit .system v.as almost entirely prohibitory.
■'56701.'. That was the time when there weiv a great many men employed on railway
construction? — Yes, and drunkenness was a rare occurrence. T have pas.sed a whole yeai'
in Moose .Jaw without seeing a single (Irunken man on the streets, and my business ha->
called me a good deal of the time on the streets.
.'5()70.'5. When did that condition of things change? The most noticeable change
was after the intrcxluction of the foui- per cent beer.
.'56704. When sale commenced? -Yes, everything was four per cent U'er.
.'5670.'). Had you reason to lielieve that the [>eople sold a little of everything? Yes,
\ory giMxl reason.
.'56706. What was the condition of things then as compared with the condition of
things in earlier years ? — 100 per cent worse.
.'56707. Was there a gocKl deal of drinking ? — Yes.
Were the effects of drinking ob.servable to everyliody ?— Yes.
That went on from 18^9 to May 1st of this year, 1 suppose? — Yes.
How many licenses are issued in M<M>se .Jaw? Two hotel and one whole-
.'5670H.
.'56709.
.'56710.
sail
lice I
'?— .Just the same as every-
•'5(5711. What is the condition of things undei
where else uniler license —as i)ad as it can be.
•'5(5712. How about the fimr per cent arrangement? — So far as my observation goes
:is it'gaixls .seeing men under the influence of liijuor, then' is a difference in the appear-
ance of the streets and there is more drinking.
•'56713. From your observation you think the licensing of the tra<le has not dimi-
nished the amount of drinking ? — No, it has incretised it. I know it.
36714. Have you observed that the license system is a greater danger to the young
pt'o|>le of the community than was the old permit system? — It certainly is.
I 1. 1'^671"». Taking the three systems side l)y side, the permit .system, the four per cent
litH'rplan and the license .system, which do you prefer? — The permit .system of the early
ilays.
36716. Are you a believer in prohibition? — Yes.
.34S
I!
tlii
I
Liquor Trattic — North-west Territories.
36717. You Imlieve prohibition for tlie whole country U desirable? — 1 do.
;i()718. Do you think, after a iVHidcnce of 10 yeurs liere, it could l)e practically
enforcetl here ? — Tt would be in the Moose Jaw district, .to far a.s my knowledge goes ; I
cannot say anything else.
.'16719. How large a district is that? — It covers a tract on the Canadian PaciHc
Railway clxiut "JO miles and south to Willow Ilrook, a distance of aljout 60 miles.
'M\720. You are sure that in that district prohibition wouhl Ije practicable ? — Yes,
I feel so from the experience of the early days under the |)ermit system. I know it was
practically carrinl out then, and the ti-mp'rance sentiment has not diminished in the
district since that time.
.'{6721. In the election of menilH'rs for the L«'gisiature, was the ijuestion of license
really an issue Iwfore the people ? It was not lx'f:)ro the candidates declarinl themselves
in favoui" of licen.se. They stavetl that (|uestioii off, as it was a difficult i^sue. The
election was run inde|>endent of license as an issue.
3672'2. What was tlie issue ? The contest was iM-tween one man and another.
do.
/iy Judijf McDonald :
39723. You think the sentiment in your district is favourable to prohibition ?— I
.'$6724. How do you account for this fact, that the only issue was between man
and man, that the greater portion of the candidates to the I^'gislature favoured license
and were not, in accord with your statement, with the prevailing sentiment of the com-
munity? You say it was a man and man contest, yet generally Iwith candidates were
in favcjur of license. How do you account for the fact that no temperance man ai)peared
in the contest ? — It was just on this ground: Mr. Ross was our former member. He
declared himself in favour of licen.se. Mr. (lordon then came out, and when the ques-
tion came \\\t declared himself in favour of licen.se. They were l)oth sup|M)sed to b«!
very strong m<>n and hiul a great many jiersonal frie.Mds. The tem|>erance people
thought of starting a man ; but on considering the matter they came to the conclusion
that on account of the per.sonal est^'em in which the two men wei-e held, one or tlie
other of them would l)e elected.
3672.''). Supposing a temperance candidate had cometuit, would not the temjH'rance
sentiment have l»een strong enough to elect him, or would the t^-niperanco men, owing to
per.sonal preferen.-e for one of the othei- men, have sujiported one of the original candi-
date.'^ '.■ 1 l)elieve they would have done so.
3672(i. You have expressed your opinion that in youi- <listrict you would lie able to
enforce a prohibition .system. NVas the prohibition system thoroughly enforced in the
early days ; was no licpior snuiggled in '. There was prolwibly li(|uor smuggled in. \
liave no reason to think there was, but it was a vei'y small <piantity, an<l it was brought
in by the class of people who nevei- appeared in jiublic.
36727. Then you think when tin; fo\n' per cent Iw-er came in, litpior was sold undei-
cover of it ? — Yes.
36728. Do you l)elieve the |)eople obtainc<l all the liquor they wished undci- tiie
four per cent system? — No.
.'56729. Do you think some were refused ? -After the system came into for<'e I
liever knew any one in Mixjse Jaw who was refused a permit.
■"Wi'.'W. Have you known anything of pain-killer and other com|)ounds of like nature
being used as alcoholic drinks? -No, I have never known of such liquors being used. I
lieani such rejHirts in the early days, but I never saw any used.
■'{6731. You are a total aljstainer? -Yes.
36732. And a prohibitionist on principle ? -Yes.
.{6733. Do you think the traffic itself is wrong? I clo.
.'{6734. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, would you favour
the granting of compensatiim to brewers and distillers for loss of plant ?— Yes, up to a cer-
tain extent. Hritain bought liberty for the slaves. It has been said that it was lawful to
engage in this business, and it seems to me it W(add lie right if those men who are
engaged in it were deprive<l of the imnms of living, that they should l)e renunierated.
Enoch CoLPrris.
84(1
\\\
II
II
57 Victoria.
{Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■{(i7.'t"j. You luivp j{ivt!n tin- whole subject of |ii'ohil)itioii some thought, 1 supi^ose?
-^1 have, s.) fur as I am al)i(> to tlo so.
.3fi73(5. And you c.-iisider it would Ix' piactieahle to enforce suilt a law in the
Moose .law (listrit't ? — Of i-ourse there would \h', infractions of the law, but there are
infractions of the present law.
.1()7.'17. Would you have the tMiforcenient of the law entrusteil to the municipal
authorities ? — No.
.'{r»7.'<H. Whom would you entrust with the enforcement of the law '! - Ulhcers sp'cially
appointed by the (Jovernment to do so.
.■{(■>7.39. How many would you recpiirefor the Mmtse .J aw district ? — If the MtMise.Iaw
di.strict was the only place where li(|Uor W(»uld Im' handled, very little force would be
retiuin-d.
.'{<)740. Is it H station for the North-west ^founted Police? There is only one
ullicer there.
.■<ti741. He patrol:* the place thoroughly, 1 supjKise ? -^-Occasionally.
.■?<>742. Howisit to the south of you ? (}oing south nf MiHise.hiw the wliitesettlement
does not extend very far, but there is a large settlement nf Half-breeds at Willow ltriM)k.
There is a police station at W(hhI Mountain, L".( miles from the st^ttlement. *
.■W»7I.3. You think M<K(se Jaw itself would need a very small force .' I do.
.■{0744. In case of smuggling in the rural districts and the establishment of illicit
>tills, how would you propose tu nu-et those ditHeulties? It would have to be dune by
ilie force and by the Inspector.
.'i(i74r). Woulil the force not ha\e to be amounted one ? Yes.
■■{674t>. And with a sutlicient force you think it could lie done? —I «lo.
■■{<>747. You think snmggling would be prevented? Yes. In the wintei of 1884
there was a still stai'ted in the district of MuiYaio Lake, but it was soon broken up.
•■5<>748. |{y whom .' Hy (he Mounte<l Police. They diil not ca])ture the parties, but
they cha.se<| them so closely that they umst have been glad to get away, and there has
never been an attempt miule since to manufacture illicitly. My reason for believing
that the jxtlice force can efleciually do this wt)rk is that under diflerent ])olicemen we had
ilifVei'dit results. Men who were \ igilant and endeavoured to per'form their duties diniin-
ishetl the effects of I i(|Uor, while others did not succetnl. 1 know of one man who niaile
it a l)oast that he could buy up some of the police men with a drink of whisky.
•{<i74!(. J)o you believe he stated what was true,'- .ludginu from the manner he
talked of the nutttt-r, I liiul no reason to doubt it.
.■{(i7"»0. So an mlditiomil necessity for the prohibitory law would Im- not oidy a
sutKcient force of ofliccu's but men of the right sort, who would do their duty faithfully
.ind without fear? -Yes, that is all that is iiMpiired to ca^'ry out a prohibitory law in
my di.strict.
■'Uw.')!. .Succes.sfully ? Yes.
Jif/ R'V. />)•. AfrLn>,f
'M75'2. About the election. Wa.s the understanding when the mem Iters weic elected
that a licen.se law was to be enacted at the next se.ssion of the I.iegislatme without
let'erence to the will of the people ? -It was understood at that time that tlie License
.Vet would be one of the (luestions dealt with, and our mendtei', Mr. Hoss. exjiressed
himself as U-ing favourable to a plebiscite oi> the ijuestion.
.■t(17">.'{. I)id the (piestion of a plebiscite come ujj in the l^egislature
did. but it had a very weak following and did not amount t'<> aiivthini;.
.■t(>7ri4. Have you kno\vledge which leads you to believe that there are violations of
the law at McMwe .law by the licensees? I think so. While I have reason to Uilicive that
the wholesale dealer does not violate the law in any respect, the other dealers, I think,
viol.ite it repeatedly, by selling after hours and on the Sabbath, an<l by selling to minors
and to men to whom they have no right to sell on account of their drunken habits.
/iy Jiidije .}frl)nnn/d:
.■{(j75."). Have you taken any steps to call the attention <jf the officers t<i the
tact .' The Government Inspector has b«*en notitieil, and has expressed himself as Ix-ing,
anxious to s» cure punishment for any infiactions of the law.
347
loss, expressed
I thini'
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liL^isi,..
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories.
M07')<>. You huve rejison to Wlieve tliat tliose dealei-s sell to ininui-K ? — Yes.
.'{GTi')?. Have you furnished the niime.s of minors to the otHeers f - Yes. There was
one case of a lx»y who wa« employed by a party who wished to procure liquor. The l»oy
obtainetl liquor. He way willing tt) testify, and the Inspector t«M»k the matter to Mr. tf.
C. Pope, and he claimed that under the provisions of the law a conviction could not Ite
procured as he was only acting as agent in pr<K'uring liquor and not obtaining it for his
own use.
.'U57;"»H. Do you know what were the facts'?— -I think the lioy was only acting as
agent.
M67olt. What were the other sah-s to minors to which you referred 1 — That is the
only one I know of directly.
•SfiTGO. What case do you know of violation of the law on the Lord's Day ? — I have
known persons to go there and come back under the influence of liquor.
.'{670 1. Have you furnished their names to the Inspector? — No, I have not, because
I knew the parties would not give evidence ; they were unwilling to give evidence.
;$G7G2. Couhl they not Iw made to give evidence?— I do not know. We have had
cases frequently in Moose .law, and we have had to give them up on account of lack of
evidence.
.'5(»763. Do you think in these cases it is more diAicult to secure the facts than in
ordinary ca.ses in the court, principally owing to the weak memories of the witnesses ? —
It appears to be the case.
.'107(54. Does there not apjiear to Ik- a different sentiment on the part of the
witnesses in rt'gard to such cases ?— Yes.
By Jiev. Dr. McLeod:
.'16765. Is it a different sentiment, or is it the fact that the witness may have been
party to the violation.s, or his friends having l)een parties he is unwilling to testify? — 1
supptfse that would influence most men, but there appears to Ije a feeling that a man who
gives information in a liquor case is worse than an informer against a man who violates
the law in other res[M!cts.
.■{()76G. What do you think of this matter yourself ? — Personally, if there were viola-
tions of the law I would inform on the men as sixtn as I would inform against stealing.
;J67<)7. Because in your opinion there is no difference of sentiment? — Not at all.
DAVID H. GILLESPIE, of Regina, livery, feed and stable keeper, on l)cing duly
sworn, deposed as follows :
By Judye MrDoualil :
.36768. How long have you resided at Uegina ? — 10 years.
36769. Have you resided anywhere else in the North-west Territories ? — I reside<l
for a short time in Brandon.
.36770. Did you come from one of the other provinces? -Yes.
36771. From which province? — From the County of Bruce, Ontario.
.36772. Have you .seen the working of a prohibitory law anywhere else than in the
North-west Territories ? — No.
36773. Since Ist May last, we understand yftu have had a license law in operation?
-Yes.
36774. Which of the two systems do you prefer? — In my buainess I prefer the
license system.
36775. Why ! There are not so many tieople the worse of liquor who come into my
business.
.36776. Do you mean since the license law has been enforced f — Yes.
36777. Do you mean men who hire rigs from you ?— Who do business with me.
Enoch Colpitis.
348
57 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■{♦577H. Hiul y«iu imy know|p(l>{«» uiuler the old systfiii nt' the ns«' ut" {Miin-killn- ami
eHU do Cologne iiiul .such Hul)stanc<;s hh beverages? -I hnd iint, although I hav*' heanl
statements tliat surh wen- iiwhI. I havir He«ii ni«'n take Kluridn water.
•(677'.(. In caHe of the eiiactinent of a general pntliibitury law would you favour tlio
granting of payment to brewers and distillers for their loss «if plant and inm'hinery 1 —
That is a matter I never considered.
Jiy Rev. Dr. McLewl :
MilHO. We luul it in evidence from a livery-stable kwper in Prince All>ert that
the large percentage of damages done to rigs was cau.sed by drunkenness. Have
you ol)sftrved anything of that kin<l '! — We get rigs broken in difjeivnt ways, sometimes
by the horse getting away.
;{()7H1. Have you obnerve<l whether any jwrcentage of those cases are attributal>le
to the drinking habits of men who hire the rigs'/ I cannot say. We are very careful,
and we generally send a man with the rig.
;Jti7f<"J. You have expressetl your j)reforence for a licen.se system over the permit
system ? — Yes, j)ersf»nally.
;{(t783. Have joa thought of the <|uestion of prohibition, and have you arrived at
an opinion as t<» the enactment of such a law for the whole country? — I have not coir
sidere<l it as a law for the whole country, l)Ut only as regards myself iiersonidly.
.■{()7H4. Do you think it would 1m« a gcHsl thing for the country if such a law were
pa.s.sed, if it were fairly well enforced '/ — I suppose either system would Is- gisjd if
rightly handled.
.'U)7f<r). Hy rightly handled, 1 suppose you mean enforced '( —Yes.
.'<678(). Which do you think would I* more rightly handleii, thtf license law or a
prohibitory law, taking all interests together — pei-sons and business and home life aiul
everything of that kind ?— I could not say, 1 am sure.
:U)787. Have you any choice between them? — No, 1 have not.
/ii/ Jiidije McUomdd :
.■{()788. Do you consider that complete pi-ohibition taking your experience -
would be practicable in the North-west Territories an«l that it could !>« carri(!<l out I It
is doubtful.
3()781). You know nothing in i-ega'-d to smuggling? — It has no doubt b<?en carritnl
on. In fact, I have seen it myself, and have sei-n teams carrying liijuor from Montana
into this country ; at all events, we l)elieved it was litjuor they had.
J Mi
WILLIAM P. EDDY, of Itegina, liuihler and contractor, on being duly sworn,
deposeti as follows : —
By Jitdfje AlcDoanlil :
.'16790. How long have you residinl at Kegina ' Ten years. I was here in Oct«»l)er,
1882. 1 went to Ontario in 188f) and returned in 1890, and have resided here since.
.■^(5791. From what County did you come ?- From the County of Durham, Ont^irio.
."16792. W'hat part? — From the village of Newcjvstle.
36793. Were you there when the Scott Act was in force? — It was in force when I
went down.
36794. How did it work ? — I was surprised to see the diflerence from the time I left
until the time I went btu:k.
.1679.'). Was it a great success? — I think so.
36796. Do you know whether it was enforced there or not? — No. It has been
repealed since.
36797. Were you there when the Act was repealed ? — Yes.
349
il
1!:,
l!i|
&'
Liquor Tiattic — North-west Territoiies.
.iri7'.i><. Mow <|() yi<u iM-i'iiuiit inv tlif n-|M<Hl «if the Act 1 Bi-caiine tin- iiiiijoritv of
ttit; |)e<i|il«> stM'iiietl to think that it did nut work ; it won on Hoi-ouiit of its iKtinx a l<K>al
Hti'uir.
.'J(17!Mt. How do yon in«'iin (imuI / -One County would hiive the Scott Act and the
next would have li(|uor.
MtiHOO. Wliiit is the udjoininv; County to l)urliain? —Ontario.
.'M5H01. What hiw was in force there? I do not rnniemU'r.
36802. Was not the Hcott Act also in force in Ontario? I did not mean in re^jard
to one sin>;le county, l)ut tiie |)eo|ile seeine<i to think that tlie tn>ul)le was because the
Act wa> iulopted in ditl'erent countie-. and was not for tiie whole province.
;{()SO.l. Did they think it did not work efiiciently f They thought it was not a |)er-
fect success. I do not say it was a |K'rt'ect suci-e.ss, hut 1 think it worked well.
3Gf*()4. Can you undei-staml how the |»«'ople, feeling a )^reat improvement had taken
place, did not supjMirt it liutdesirtnl to f{o liack to licen.se? -No; 1 was sui'prised.
.'Mi'<0."), .Are you a prohiWilionist in principle?- Ye.s, since 18^6.
.'WlcSOd. W(>ie you not prohiWitionist Iw-fore that ! Xo.
.■{<)H()7. I>i<l you vote for the Scott Act ! I was not there wln-n it was passed.
.'{♦}K()8. I)o you consider the license system to Im- wron>(? Yes.
JJdSttK. hoyou consider it to he a sin to license the sale of litjuor ! Yes.
.St'iHlO, hoyou favour the passajje of a >,'eneral pmhiliitory law? Yes.
;U)S| 1. You look uiKin such a law as that to U' ri;;ht in principle? Yes.
.'«»S|2. In case of the passinj; of such a law, woultl you favour the granting of coni-
ptinsation to hrewers and distillers for their loss of plant i — No, I do not think 1 would.
.'{GHl.'i. Kroni your experience, was the prohibitory law well enforced in the North
west Tcrritoi'ies ? - \'es, comparatively. •
;{(»H14. What tlo you mean liy conij)aratively I -There wei-e some infractions ui\der
the St'ott Act and some sniu<rglin;;, hut I think it was fairly well enforced.
.'{(ISh"). Do you think the Mount«l Police did their duty ? — I think the majority of
them did.
.iriHIC). ho you think that if the country had not had the services of the Mounted
Police there would have Ween more smu;;t;linj,' !- I think .so.
."UlHl". Hut a foi'ce like the .Mount)>d Police a-ssisted in keeping lii{Uor out of the
county '. Y'es.
.'J()8lS. And keepintf out illicit stills /—Ye.s.
.'i6f<lll. |)o you know aiiythim.' of the use of pain-killer and eau de Cologne as hexei'-
Kges ? — No, r know nothing alxiut them, except what 1 have heard.
JJi/ Rer. Dr. McLeod :
.'U'lH'iO. You are a contractor, f iielieve ?^Y'es.
. .<8:J1. You employ nun at difft^rent times? Y'es.
.■Jt)H"_'L'. Have you noticed that since lici-nse has come into ojterat ion, men have the
tirink haliit more or less than hcfoiv .' I think they drink a go<Kl deal more.
.'((ISL'.t. 'rh(\y diink liipiors moie regularly, J suppose? — Yes. IJefore they would
get a (lo.se and then have no mo!e for some time, but now they are half intoxicated or
undt'r tlu! intluence of liipior more oi- less.
.■I68"2l. Have you noticed in Uegina whether the establishment of licensed places is
causing more di.sorder than fornierly ? — Y'es, I have notice<l more disorder.
liy Judge MfDoniihl :
.'$6825. How many men rlo you em])loy? — Sometimes T have ten or eight and sunif
times not so many.
.■U)826. How many continue in a half intoxicatetl state? — 1 do not engage men who
drink.
.'J6827. Y'ou have just answered that you noticed, with regard to men employed
since the license law came into force, that some reuuiinetl in a half intoxicated condition.'
— Not my own men.
William P. Eudv.
360
57 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'«)H2)^. How many WMikinv^iiu-n do you know who n>niiiin in a half intoxii-at«><l
condition.' I did not Nay remained in a halt' intoxicated condition, Imt they have lii|uoi'
on tiieni more or less all the time, and take more glasses at ni^hl, and are not socapalile
uf working the next day.
•{ti82'.). Before, they were in the haWit of )^rettin^' lii|Uor in and haviii;; a tinie of it ?
- Yes.
.'{OH.'W. And after that they woidd solwr up? They cuui<l j;et no inoie.
.StW.'H. And when the next li(|Uor came they would ^'o on a sjnee? Yes.
.■M)(<;J2. Are the men who ^et U<|Uor occaxitinaily now the same nu-n as those in
whom you referred ? Yes.
.■{(jf<;{;i. Can they jj;et liquor more fre»'ly than they could then? -Yes. Not onlv
Working men liut men around town I see more fretjiiently under the intiuence of lii|uor.
:tC8.'U. Did you ever see them U'fore under the inlluence of lii|uor ( Yes, l)ul I see
them more often now.
;J(»H.'{."). Take the classes of people in the connnuiiity who use li(|Uor, dtM-s a liiryei-
or smaller pro|Kirtion use it inuno<lerately '? - A smaller jiroportion.
.'{(i8;U). You say you do not employ men given to intemperance f — \o.
.'{•>H:t7. I >o you make it a condition with men you em|)loy that they shall lie total
abstainers f I never say anythin<; alniut it. I wrote to ( )ntariu fur one nuui and said
that I could give him .so much a day if hi; came, hut that if he drank any Iteer. I re
.served to niy.s«'lf the rijfht to rechuu; his wages or to discharge him altogether.
;{(i,s;{8. |)o you not employ any men except total abstainers .'--No, I do not a-. ,i
rule, unless I want a man for a time or when I have a rush on.
;ir>H3!*. Then you always contiiie yourself to total ah. tainers f — No.
.'{Ct*4U. Y'ou Would not employ any man who takes a glass of lieer once or twice .i
day? — I do not know that I would b«> so jiarticular as that, hut I dn nut want .( man
wlio takes liipior occasiniiallN.
JOHN U. KKItIi, of liegina, harduui'e merchant, on licjng duly sworn,
as follows : —
epo
By Jiidgp MrDiinahi :
.■5<)HH. How long have you resiilcd in Hegina .' Ahoul 1 years.
.'{tjS4"_'. Have you resided anywhei Ise in the North-west Territories '? No.
.'Jt(84."<. I)id you come here from one of the other provinces/ — J came from the
County of Perth, Ontario.
.'{tjSti. Was ■», license systiun in force there .' It was.
.■{(iS4."i. \'ou have .seen the working of the old law in the North-west Territorie.-., the
prohiliitory system and al.so the license law here since 1st May .' Yes.
.■{<»S4(i. Which do you consider preferahle ? — I consider the |ir'e.s(*nt law piefei .il»le,
.■{list?. Mid you find that un<ler the old system lii|Uor was olitained .' Yes.
:!(i,'<4f<. Was liijuor smuggle<l into the country .' S'es,
;iCf<4y. |)oyou know anything alniut the character i if the lii|uor limuulil in liv
.smugglers? Tlu' lii|Uoi' snniggled in was g«inerally raw alcohol, which was manufactured
irito drink after it reached here.
.■{()M.">(). Do y4)u know anything alniut the use of pain-killer and eau de Cologne and
other similar comjxiunds hi-ouglit in when the |ieruiit system was in force ?--Y^es. I
have seen a large size<l time on " U'ef, iron and wine."
-■{OH.'d. So the com]^M>unds that were originally lirought in for medicimil purposes
were u.setl as l>«'verages when the p-ople could not get liijuor? Yes. CSrocei-s .sold a great
deal of extracts anil other articles that were generally us»;d for cooking, such as vanilla.
.{(jHr).'. Judging from your experience, do you think it woulil he practicable to en-
force a i^eneral prohiliitory law in these Territories? — I do not think so.
351
1 1
! ii
I ■
I •!
I
n
I
ilH
Lii^uor Trartic — North-west Territuries.
.'«iHr);l, In I'HHt' lit' tli)> fnaotiiuMit nf hucIi k liiw, would you favour th<> urKntiit^ ut'
i-niii(K)nHtitioii to hri>w«>rH and tliHtillt>n« for plant anil inaoliin«>rv ri^ndi^nnl uncIpmr ? - 1 f
they invi'MUnl tnoncy undor a lioenM« systi'in, I ct^rtainly would favour (>oiii|H'nHation.
■'I68rit. Havu you rciiHon U> \ni\ivvt> that illii-it Htills pntvailed to any fxtent in tin-
TerritorifH ? I liav«> no |M>Hitiv« knowlcd^i;, hut I am alinoMt i-«>rt4iin tlx^y cxiMUHl.
.'U>H').*i. l)o you «>inploy any umn I Just a dork in the store.
/{j/ Jiev. Or. Mi-lMtd:
.'ttiHBti, Why do you n'^anl liccnw as |irpf**rahle to prohiliition. Htatf your rcaitons,
lirictly ( -I iiav« MM^n prohihitioii, Mocallcd prohihition, hut it did not prohiiiit tii«> tratlic.
:i(iH.'i7. Was it not |M!rniisHion and not prohihition?- Yo\i might call it that.
.ttiS.'iH, You rogard lifi-nsif as pri^forahle to that systoni '/ — Yes.
;i6H.")i», Why is license pr-eferahle to pi-ohiliition, well enforceil 1 I think men
should Im- allowiHl the lilterty of taking wine or anything they wish.
.■$('if<tU(. I >o<>s the license law provide for the use of wine and liquors in moth'ration
only ( — If pri>|K'rly enforced.
."KiStil. That hrings up another ()U«Mtion. Is the licenue sy8t.«'m pro|K'rly enforce<l ;
is it so in Uegina now ? I do not suppose either licens*' nr pi'ohihition will ever lie
strictly enforc(Hl. The licenw system is lietter carrie«l out here than it was during my
experience in the east.
.tt)H(i2. Your exjierience in the east was that the license law wiis not strictly en-
forced'/ Yes.
.'«i8ti.'). Is it a fact that license is not strictly enforctMl ; and is nut that an oltjectiun
to license ? I think so.
.'H)H(>4. I >o you tihjeot to prohihition on principle ? — \'es.
.UiSO"). Do you object to the prohibition in the licen.se law, the provisions prohibit-
ing xale after hours and on th" Sabbath ! —No, I do not.
SfiStiCi. Then the proliibition to which you iibjj'ct is general |)riihibition. You an-
iiware that tuilc is restricted to certain hours. You do not objei't to that, I supj)osc !
—No.
.itiHCi". You think that is proper?- Yes.
:U)8GH. Why is it propei- to prohibit sale
they want liipior, then- are certain times whei
hotels op««n all night, they would certainly Ik> (lisreputable places.
."16869. Is not that restriction an interference with personal liberty? If 1 want lu
get a <lrink after eleven o'clock, and 1 find every place closed, is it not an interference
with individual lilM'rty? You might provide yourself Vieforehand.
.'{6f<7U. You object to prohibition then oidy when it prohibits entirely the trade
You seem tn favour some pnthibitions. Assinne that there are 500 men and ail ut
I hem are j)rohibite<l, except six, from selling lii|Uor here. Dti you favour that kind of
prohibition? Ye^ I favour a high licen.se system.
.{("iH"!. Do you think the license system I'educes the amount of drinking? — No, I
(III not think it diH*s.
.'M)87'.'. Do you think any system that reiluces the amount of drinking is advan-
tageous, or do you think the amount of drinking should Ih- left to the people who want
to drink ?-- -I think so. .
ring icrtain hours? If peojile think
ihey can obtnin it. If they kept th'-
John H. Kerr.
852
67 Victoria
Seesional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
: O'li-llt, nil lH'ill}{ iluls' ■'XMil'll,
Kf^iiui .' I lia\<- I'cHitlfd ill tin-
Ki-)jihii ili.Htrict for oxer 10 yt'ur.s.
town lit
'I'liiit is
pldviiii't's
I rami' t'l'Miii ( >iitai'iii.
|M'iiiiit system ill tin- Nmlli west
Hvstfiii of iNMiiii^ |ii'niiits iliil mil
(JKOIMIF'. WlhMAM IU«)\V\. .,f 1{. ■>{{,„». |,iu
i|i'|iiimmI as followH :
////./(«./(/. .1/. />.,».(///
;tt»H7.'V Mow limy liavr you rcsiilitl in
Iti'ijiiia Im>I Wfi-ii tlin-i' anil four years, and i
M-M-ii years lonp'r in the ilistriet than in the town.
.'ttiM"!. IHll you I'oine here from one of the lithe
.'l(»M7r). Kroin what County f l''roin (ii-ey.
//../ A'-c. Dr. Mrho<l .
;K)H7ti. What has liecn your oliserxation of ilie
Territories? When I eame lirst to this eountry tin
seem to he NO ;4e|iei'al as later on, ailil while we knew all the time that wllisky ^^O" Wein;,'
<mu!.'j;le(| into the eoiint ry, we saw \ery litt le of its ell'eets a, > ry selilmn saw a iltunken
man. As the system of |ierinils iH-eame eiilar;;eil, more lii|u< ° is liriiu<,'ht in, and it was
more ditKeiill to tell whether the liijuor was leyal or illepil. und a lot was siiiui;!.'le(l in
iliiiler old permits that had Ween e.xhaust<>d.
■'I<>''<77. I'id the iM-rmit system eoniinue to exteni' ■ rejuani to tlir iiumher of per
itiit.s ! I have no otlleial ground for my statement, Uiii ii was j/ -iieriilli' understood when
I lirst eiiine ' -re. which wasalxuil the iM'Kiniiiii;,' of i Jii\eriior l>i'>vdney's adimnist rat ion.
Hinder v,i ,. '. iioi |.,airil there were very few |iei'iiiits is.sued' thul iiie :iiimlM-r was increas-
iiii;. There seemed ;o i-emme liipior lirou;;ht into the eountry, at allevents. With the
.(•lit of < iiiveriior UoyaTs administrution there was tl'n eoiiimeiieeinent of four per cent
U-er iH'iny liroii;r|it in, and we saw still more (H-rmits issm-d.
.'U»S7H. When the four per cent iM'er plan was iiit riHlueeil, was liijUoi iVi'elv snlil ;
Yes.
.■t<>S7!t. I)i(l you oliserve whetlier. under eoxer of four per ci'iii lieer. everythinjf in
llie shape of li(|Uor was sold ! It was very ditheult to restriet the sale, and thev had
llii- ;;iiise under whii-h liipior could Im' sold.
.■ttlSMII. l*'ollowin;r the four per cent heer plan came the new law -if this yi'ar. Have
M III observed how that w iirks, itiid what have Im-cii the etlects .' 1 suppose that under
ilie old permits there was a certain cla.s« of men who jjtit liipior if they wanted it. hut
my im]iression is that there is a new class drinkim; freely who iK-foie could not >;et it.
Tlii'V could not yet it hefore iM'cause they could not yet |iermii.s, and they com|ilaiiied of
ii ; while there is a class who do not drink any more now than they did liefore.
.'U)H,s|. From your oltN»>r\atioii in Heyina do you think drinkiny has increased and
disoi-ders have liecome niiire nunierous, and that the ett'ects of drinkiiiy have iH-come
more apparent ! In the early days a man iniyht lM-(h'unk or slightly under the inlliience
<it' lii|uor: hut to see a man U-astly drunk on the streets was a very rare occurrence,
while now it is ipiite coinmon. ( )f course men did yet drunk in those days tiHi.
.'iCiSMi.'. What (Jo you reyard as the weak point of the old jirohiltitive enactment '.
I think the weak |Hiiiit was this, tha' the peo|ile who had the administration of the
~vstein were not thorouyhly in sympathy with it.
.'Kli'^S.'l. |)oyou think permits were fiHi inconsiderately issued .' ^■es, \ think the
intention of the law in issuiny permits was not to make the (Jovernorof the Ten ilorics
|M:i(tically a har-teiider for the Territories, hut that when it was necessary for certain
imiposes that li(|Uor should lie provided, lie should yivethe permit and u.so his judymeiit
III that reyard. I do not think the intentioii '»f the jiermit system was that he should
Hi|iply the people of the Territories individually with li(|Uor, hut that is what it amounted to.
^{tlHSI, Do you Ix'lievo from your residence amony the people of the outlvinydis-
iiicis and your observation yenerally, that a more nyin prohiliit ion than wiis had
under the (lermit sysU'm would have In-en acceptable to tlie people and capable of iMiforce-
meiit '.- I think the pprmit system could liave iK^en enforced. Of course no law can be
'iifiirced so that it will never be violated. Hut if the provisiiuis of the permit system
liad been restricted to the original iittention of tlie Leyislature inyrantiny the law they
ciiuld have been strictly enforced.
353
21-23**
.:il:
ill:
I!!
Liquor Traffic — North-west Tei'iitories.
.■{()Hf<r). lla\e you thought of the (|u«\sti«>ii of tlie total prohibition of tlie iimnufitc-
ture, i!iiportiitiori and salt' of al<-oliolir lii|uoi'.s foi' l)f\<Taj;c |iiirj)oscs. and if so, what arc
your views of tln' practirahility of cnforcinf; sut-h a law and as to its t'llt-cts? — 1 cannot
say I have made any )>artii'u!ar study of it. hut I hav« thou;;ht of it. I Ijelievo if aleo-
holic li(|uoi's could he coninlctciy excluded fi'oni the country as regards their nuuiufac-
lure and sale, such a law could he very well enforced.
;{<iSS(). When you say " completely excluded " you mean in the dej^ree laws jjenei'ally
are (iliserved '. Yes.
.■{()SS7, Have you thouf{ht almut the (juestion of granting compensation tt) brewers
and disliilers in the event of the enactment of such a law I Yes.
.'WiSSS. Wiiat is your \ i(!\\ on that matter / .My idea is that when a man has ;i
license to manutacture or sell lii|Uoi'. he knows that it may be taken away from him an\'
moment, and at all events he has no right to it after the end of the term. 1 look upon
the licensee as particularly privileged : he has a jirivilege above the I'cst of his fellow men.
.'KlSH'.t. You think that every man who applies foi- a li<|Uor licen.se can not obtain
one, nor can evei-y man who wants a license to manufactured These inen knew what
was before them when they entered the business. It is not as if they were led into
something or compelled to make some expenditure of which they could not foresee the
end. This was only a privilege accorded them from year to year, and it wiisin the jtower
of the li<^gl lature to terminate the arrangement at the end of any year and leave the
licensees without licenses. It w.-is with full knowledge of the facts that thes«' men
entei'cd the business, aiul they must take the conse(|uenccs if it became a ([uestion of
doing away with the tratlic in order to benetit the i-uuntrv. It might be right to com
pensate them as a matter of exj)edioncy, but 1 do ni'it think they have any right to be
com)iensated.
•"IGf^lK). You think it might pay tiie country to recompense those men as a nuitter
of expediency rather than have the drink continue to be sold ! Yes.
Jii/ .fiid(/<' Mi-DiiiiukI :
.{(iS'Jl. You s))oke of lu'ewers and distillers being licen.sed only for one year. Do you
know that there is an enactment ir regard to brt'wers and distillers, reipiiring them to
kee]) li(|Uoi' on hand foi' a certain number of years before they sell it '. — Yes, I kno«
there is.
.■JflSO'J. Do you consider that to be a year to yeai- business J — In the case of manu
facture it might not be .so.
.■5()S1I."<. It was in regard to cases of manufacture you were asked, and you were not
asked in regard to retail licenses. In the case of statutory provisions and regulations
rccjuiring certain machinery to be put into distilleries or certain changes made in their
apparatus, do you think in the event of the trade being clo.sed up, tlit^ ovvnei's should lie
compensated for that loss of plant and machinery ''■ No, foi- although the law re(piiresa
party if he wish(>s to make liipior to do certain things, the law says if you wish to
carry on this business, it will give you permission to do so. but will rijtain the I'ight to
take it away from you. and you enter upon it on your own responsibility.
.■tt)Sl>4. You think that applies to manufacturers ,' Yes.
."idSit.-i. You are a student of law, I believe? — Yes.
."itjSl'C), Have you noticed in the law that any applicant for a license re(|uires to
obtain the signatures of a certain nundx-i' of persons in the neighbourhiMxl before he can
etiter u]ion his business '. Yes.
."StiSitT. Does that same coui'se re(]uire to be taken year after year / I do not think
that it does.
;W)Sl)f<. What inference do you draw from that : is it that when a man has obtained
his lit'tMise aiid is in the business, he is allowed to renuiin in it so long as he contiauis
to ob(>y the law l It is tli(> same in all jjositions. If I give a man a good chai'acter' ii
I'emains until he shows that it should be taken away from him, and anybody can enter
a protest against a licen.se being granted to a licensee.
;<()Si(!», You are a prohibitionist im priiu'iple, ] suj)pose?--Yes.
.'Ui'.MK). Do you think it is a wrong thing to sell lii|Uor ? 1 could not sell li(|Ucii
conscientiously.
(iKOHOE WlLl,l.\.M HUOWN.
354
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'UtitOl. I)() you tliiiik it in wroiij; tudriiik li(|Ui)r/ 1 could not dosocimscientiously.
;{tJitO"J. I)o y«»u think it is wronjj to lirense tiic sale of ii(|Uor ! Yes.
.■((!!(0."{. You think it is \Nron;; in prini-ipic ( I do.
.KiltOI. You tliink tlier*- would be no particular ditliculty in cnt'orcin;,' a ;,'fn<'ral
jii'ohibitory law in this country, it' such a measure were passed I I think thei'e is ditli-
culty in enforcing; any law.
;{(5!t()r(. Do you think it would he more ditKcult to enforce a ;;eneral pi'ohihitorv law
tiian any other law .' Some laws are harder to enforce than others.
;?G!*Uti. i)o you think it would he more ditlicult to enforce a general prohihitorv law I
— No, 1 do not.
.'UiiiOT. Name any other law that would he as hai'd to enforce ( -Tak(! the i,'amo
laws : they are broken every day.
;5(')itO!^. Y'ou i)ut them in the .same catej^'ory ,' I name those as laws that are broken
<!very day.
.■{filtU!). You put them in the same catej;ory .' — [ name these as laws that are br'oken
evei-y day.
."UJDIO. Do you think it is impossible t(j enforce the ;;ame laws '. -1 think they can-
not be enforced.
'.W.)l 1. In the whole, oi- only as re},'ards some provision /- -fn the main.
.■{(!912. What was the principal business of the North-west Mounted Police before
the license law came into force !- To maintain oi'der jrenerally throui{hout the Terri-
tories.
.'iti'.(l:i. In connection with what -what was their principal duty? The lai'f^est
jiiirt of their duty was the enforcement of the permit system.
•'i()914. \\v whom were they employed? — By the Dominion (iovernment.
.'i()!»lo. Were they paid by the Dominion <,'enerally / -Y'es.
■'ili'.Mt). How larj^e is the force '/--The force consists, I think, of over 1,000 men.
In the early days of the i)erniit s_^ 5tem there were about oOO mt'o, but later on thei-e
wcie upwards of 1,000 men.
;iG!)17. The population of the Territories increased during that time? — Yes, alxuit
ill the same j)roportion as th(> jxilicc did.
.■{<)ltlS. So it was found necessary to increiuse the strength of the Mounted Police?
Yes.
•'t(5!U!). The force had to be increased to enforce the prohibitory law moi'c effect-
ually? — I tliink the increa»se in the Mount(Ml Police was not owing to the peniiit .sys-
tem. The force was increased when the rebellion of ISS.") tortk place, and I consider it
WHS moi'e on account of the state of affairs at that time, because the foi-ce had i)een
(liiiiinished until there were only about 700 or SOO men on the force.
.'Ui'.tL'O. We will take the number as 700 or SOO. Do you thiiil'^t iiat without their
aid you could easily have enforced tlw permit system ? — 1 do not thiuk it was necessary
to have nearly so many men to I'liforce it.
•■tt')!l21. You think the ]ieople I'oidd easily enforce a prohibitory law/ I tliink it
"•oiijil l)t' (Miforced.
• ill'.t'jL'. Do you think '.hat t he police or you aie able to form a more correct opinion !
T.ikc the orticers, with ten or fifteen years experience, do you think they are Ix^tter
Hiili;(!s than you in regard to the practicability of enforcing a general prohibitory law .'
They should know.
•'!ll'.)-_';{. Then you think their e.xpei'ieni'e is great(U- than yours f As to the
pr.uticability, we have the same opportunities to observe the working of t\w, law.
•lti!)2f. You think you have the same opportunities as they have over the whole
TiTritory / — Yes, VjecNiu.se tliese men are sent away and are stationed at pai-ticuiar places,
and are kept there.
•it)l)L'."). Art^ then^ no changes from ]>lace to plat^t^ .' — Yes.
• >ri!tL*(>. And do not tin; officers trax'cl about from place to place? -Yes.
•itill27. Auv' you think your experience in judging how far it would be practicable
to I'lif'orct! a general prohibitory hiw is us wide as theii's? - We are living at the centre
">t ]io|)ulation, and see more people here than they do in any other pait of the country.
To a certain extent we have the opportunity of judging all over the whole country.
-:i;M
■1:;
i I
355
21_23J**
IT
\\i
i
M ■
((■:
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories.
;U)'.(2H. TliHii your chances, you think, are as gfj(Kl »V8 theirs for forming iin opinion.
Perliaps you tliink they are better, as you live at the centre? — They are lietter in some
ways.
;{()!)2!>. If your conclusions and the i-onclusions arrived at l)y theotticers of the force
fiiffer, you think yours would be more likely to be correct / -I do, certainly.
.'U)!K"'f(). Y<»u have th« Legislature sitting at Uegina ? — Yes.
.'t(>'.(.'$l. It is nuule up of memlwrs from all parts of the country ?-- Yes.
:((>i):52. That Legisl;iture enacted a iict'n.se law ? Yes.
.■{(i'.):{;{. iJo you think your observation as to what would be best for the country,
license or prohibition, is ajit to be more in atHMird with the judgment of the peo]>le than
that of the mend)ers of the Legislature f Take the L«'gislature as a whole, they should
know ; but you have to consider first whether they are in sympathy with the thing.
.'{(ilt.'U. They are the r((pn'sentatives of the jieople, I belie\e, and it is a (|uestion
whether they would be able to understand the people's sentiment as a whole better than
you wouhl ? -They certainly should 1m^ able to do so.
.■$()!tll."). They have gi\tMi expression to their own convictions by enacting a license
law. have they not .' — Yes.
;$()'.».■<(!. Hav(' you had anything to do with the enforcement of the law ? — No.
;{<!:t."5r. I think you have sptiken of seeing more drunkenness on the street.; sin>T
the lice .ISC law came into force. Have you called the attention of the authorities to
this fact ? — No. because it occurs right on the streets.
.■Ut!l."{H. Have you taken any steps to check it? — No.
.■5(>l)."t!t. |)o you tliink the men in the tralKc here break the provisions of the license
law ? —When I spokt- of the effects of the law, I did not say that the people in the tratlii'
broke the law.
.■(•)!( H). ])o you think they break the law ? — I cannot prove it.
.■H)y41. Hav(^ you reason to believe they do? — 1 do not know that they do.
.■U)!(12. You do not know where the parties whoi.i you saw under the influence ut
liipior jirocured that liipior l A great many of those who have acted unseendy on tlif
streets have jirocurctl it illegally, of course.
.S694.S. You know that as a fact? Yes.
.'U)!)44. |)o you know where they get it !-- 1 have no idea where they get it. I haxf
seen them around the hotels and have seen them drinking : I saw them last night. I
saw several men lighting, and the police came in and took them out. I have not to gi'
very far to prove that, iw there are three men in the lock-up.
.■W)94r), Do you know anything of the u.se of pain-killer, eau d(^ Cologne and such
compounds for beverage |)urj)oses? -They were used fre(iuently, in the early days
especially.
."Ulittt). l)o you know anything of the character o^ the licpior snuiggled in from tin-
I'nited States? — No, I know nothing Jis to that.
.■U)947. You have sp»ken of the Lieutenant-Governor having become a bar-tendii
for the Territories? \ .said it was the same as if he was a dispen.ser of liquor.
."tOitlH. Do you know tiiat the Lieutenant-(!overnor made it a rule, in issuing jh'i
mits, to require a rciconnnendation from a gentleman of high position ? -Yes.
.■{(i94(t. Do you know any other system he could have adopted ? I think the issuiiii:
of the pt>rmits for beverage purposes was the exercise of a power l)eyond what tin
(loverinnent had any idea of placing in his hands.
;$6!)">0. You say that, he acte«l on the recommendation of leading people ? I do not
know exactly the men who made the recommendations, but it was geiiei-ally undei'stooil
that the reconunendations were made by different members of tlu^ Legislature. Tliat
was the diUiculty.
;U)!)5l. That they were inend)ers of the Legislature ? — Yes. The difticulty was in
this way, that if members >f the Legislature asked for [lermits and were refused, tint
action might have a result on the next election. A man would be to a large extent
biassed and influenced in nuiking recommendations by the very fact that they repii'
sented constituencies and that elections might be aft'ected in this way.
.■U»!)r>'2. Would not the fact that a member of the Legislatur<^ was refused a permit
rally the prohibitionists round him in his constituency ? -I do not know that it wouM.
(jeorgi; William Buown.
856
' ' I ' !
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
."{(iOoJJ. Take you, yourself, as a student of law iiiul an <)l«(!rver of men, have yi)U
ever cimsidered this (juestion : WJiether- the fact that a nienil»ei' of the local l^-f^islatui-e
i,'iving these reconunendations, tlie fact of the central (rovernnient increasin<{ the nuni-
her of permits, the fact that there was all the time a lessening of the prohihitive part of
the system, would indicate that tiie people in the Territories wert; in favour of the freer
use of li(|Uors for beverage purposes? — 1 do not think it was any evidence of the growth
(if that sentiment, because we liave always Ix'en refused a plebiscite.
•'Uiit.') 4. You are a student of law, and as sucli it would not be unfair to ask you
this ([lu'stion ; Is a plebiscite consistent with the princij)les of British legislation ' No,
it is not.
.■{(i!»")u. Might not that fact have inHuenced the (.legislature and men \\ ho base
studied the principles of Itritish legislation, in refusing a j)lebiscite ? I belie\e so, but
although I have conversed with many, I never heard it brought forward before as an
argument against granting a plebi.-jite. not at all evtMits until tin,' subject was brought
iiefore the Assembly and discussed generally. From conversations I have had with a
great many of the members, it a|)peared that a great many of the members wei'e opposed
lo it.
.■<()!(•">(]. Can you say how it occurred that with this sentiment existing in faxour of
[irohibition and of having a j)lebiscite, the members returned to the Legislaturi' were
not in favour of it ?- -Yes. The reason was that the temperance men had not the same
iiit"rest in this as had the litjuor men. I am a temperance man and do not diink lic|uor.
1 lia\e no particular interest in the (|uestion. .My interests an; in the bettering of my
country and city. I may be wrong in my view, but that is why I do it.
."it)'.)")". How manv were liiiuormen before tliev were licen.scd .' 'J'hev were smug-
glers.
.■i(>'.l.")S. Were there very few .' I suppo.se there were a great many.
;)(l'.tr)H. Do you nu'an t<j tell us that such men would intluoiicc! the legislators of the
country .' It was generally done.
.'iCitMlU. [t was supposed to be done to a great t!xtent ? Yes.
•'ifllHil. How do you know they influence the Legislature ? -Every man ha^ his
intluence.
.'itl'.Mii!. If these men were smugglers, how do you supjMi.se they could intluence the
uit'iiibers of the Legislatur<> f -A man who wanted to drink liipioi' had a far greattM'
inleiest than another man. They appeared to have greater inllueiice than tiie temper-
ance men because they had more at stake, tlu- temperance men having nothing but tlieii'
|iiinciples.
.ICpIM).'!. What had tlie man who drinks at stake? The desire l<i drink.
.'Kl'.Mil. You think that one would ilesire to drink and the other would not .' Yes.
•'!C)!M)."). l)o you believe that the .sentiment in favour of drinking was stronger than
I ill' sentinu'iit in favour of tem])erance I The men drank red ink.
.iiilKif). Do you mean to tell us that the majority of the people were old topers?
Nil.
■ill'.Hi". ("an you understand, fur to me it is inexplicable, why the iieii|iie. if they
wi re in favour of temperance, and you say the majority were, idlowed a license Imv to
lie enacted ? -As I said before, thev had not the ]iersiinal interest to make iheni work
loi^eiher and reorganize.
.'itJ'.MiS. You have told us that the Nested inteiest was that of the smuggler.' In
iliiscaseit was men who expected to make money out of liipior brought into the
riiuntry.
.'tli'.Uilt. That is to say, that nu'ii whotsxpected to niakt; money out. of license were
stronger in influence aiul exercised more power than tho nu'n in favour of tempt'rance?
[ do not think their influence was stronger, but they ( \ercised their intluence ; I do
!Hii think their intluence is as strong.
.'iCiilTt*. That is youi' explaiuition as to how the I.iegislature came to be favourable to
I license law ? - Yes.
• itlltTl. Then that influence is pretty stixmg in the Territories ; — Yes, it has been
exercised strongly.
•ti)'.*":.'. It has a stronuer iidlueiu:o, I presume ! -Certainly.
357
'i I
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
Ilh
.■$(i'.(7.'<. How does it come to be stronKei", owing to the fact that it is going to be
wijied out? — One reason is that some men are anxious tfi get drink.
.■5()'J74. Tlien there must be a large number who want to get li(juor in the Terri-
tories ? — Yes.
;<(>!.>7r). We liave i)een t,old by one witness that in his<-onstituency at Moose Jaw the
sentiment was in favour of prohibition. Yet Inith candidates were hcense men, and
the temperance men did not bring out a candidate, i)ut voted personally as l)etween
those two men. Do you know whether that was the case in any other section of th*^
country? — ^In some places both men were prohibitionists and in others both li(|uor men.
•Wiit'ti. How many proiiibitionists were there in the Legislature when the license
i)ill came up and was submitted? —I do not know.
.UiDTT. What is the total nund>er of Mendjers in the TiCgislature? — Twenty-six.
;U>978. How many voted against the license law? — F do not know.
.■U)97!t. Have you any idea, approximately? I have an idea that tiiere were six or
seven pi-ohibitionists.
.'ifi'JHO. Six or seven out of twenty-six members ? — There were about that number.
lUj Rev. Dr. MiUod:
.'Ujy.Sl. Did you observe whether after the introduction of the four per cent beer
plan that plenty of four per cent Ijeer permits were issued ? — The four per cent beer
people were always i favour of having a license law ; tliat is so far as 1 met with them
and conversed with them.
.■t()!IH2. Theii" inclination was in that direction and was towards that end ? — Ye.s.
m.
JOHN U. ('. Hr)NEYMAN, of Tlegina, journalist, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows :--
Ihj Juihje McDonald :
'.W9f<:\. How long have you resided in Uegina ? — I came to this countiy in 1S8.">.
•■5()984. Where diil you come from? — From Scotland.
;H)!*8r). Were you connected witli the North-west Mounted Police? — Yes: 1 was
five years on the force.
.■$(>!)8(i. During that time was it part of your duty to try and enforce the proliibitory
system ? -Yes.
.■i(>!)87. From your knowledge, did the police do their work with diligence and faitli-
fuily endeavoui' to carry out tlie law ? They would not go out of their way to look for
violations. If iiipior came under their notice, they would endeavour to enforces the law,
but the sentiment of the force was against going out of the way to obtain convictions
against people.
.■l(»988. Why was that tiie case ,' —They felt it was a sort of underhand thing to do.
.•?698(». Did they faithfully patrol the country '-Ye.s.
.'I()9!t0. Did they try to prevent snniggling ? — Yes.
•UiiMtl. And it was the right of search they did not care to exercise uidess thev
were comjH'lled to do so, 1 sujipose ?- Exactly.
.■t(»992. liut .so far as preventing liquor coming into the country, they acted willi
vigilance ? Yes.
.'Ui99;t. What was your experience: was there much smuggling?--! never had
occasion to .see aay my.self, but I wjis in the t'onnnissioner's oilice, and I know there was
a lot of snniggling, especially in the west. There were illicit stills also. One was at
.^^oose Jaw — at least I heard of one there, and one at Battleford. There was a seizure
made al^iut a year ago.
Bi/ lior. Dr. M,h„d:
.■?()991. You say you are a journalist? -Yes : I am with the l{egina l,radcr.
.'{(1995. That is Mr. Davin's paper \ — Yes, I am a reporter on it.
(}E0H(iK WlI.MAM HhOWN.
358
!; !■
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
DUNCAN CAMKIION, of H(^giii.i, scwin*; iniuhiiie iijyfent, on bein;^ duly sworn,
(lejM)8ed as follows :
Iti/ ,hidtjf Mf.Domihl :
.'{tittilC). How loni; have yon ivsidcd in |{oj,'ina ? - 14 years next ■lunc.
iJCtDit". Wlicrt- did you reside liefoic that .' In Kljfin (.'ounty, near St. Tlionias,
< Intai'io.
.tCiDDS. Were you there when the Scott Act whm in force .' — It worked fairly well.
.<()!»'.)•). The Act was subsenuently repeale<l, I iH'lieve ,' -Yes.
.'{"OOU. How did you Hnd tlie prohibitory system work in the North-west / I think
there was a j;reat deal less outside drinking' than there is now.
.■?70Ul. Than there is under the license law / — Yes.
•ITOO'J. Are you a prohibitionist in princij)le ? — Yes.
•ITOO.'S. Are you op()osed to the licensing of the tratlic / — Yes.
•"5700 1-. Do you consider it wrong to licen.se it ; -I do.
.■J700r». In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, tlwit is a law to
prohibit the manufacture, importation and .sale of intoxicating liipiors for beverage
purposes, would you favour the payment of compensation to brewers and distillers for their
lo,ss of plant and machinery ? I do not think so, for if I started a busines.s, I would
not exjiect the (Jovernment afterwards to j>ay me com|iensation.
.■t700<i. Suppose you startwl a business, and Parliament subsetpuMitly pa.^.-.ed a law
declaring that you should cea.se that business, do you think it wouhl be right that you
should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery .' -Xo. The Government has
(lone the like before.
% Ii>'r. Dr. Mr hod:
•57007. Have you observed how the permit system worked since you came to this
country ? Considerably.
.■t700S. How .' ■ I have seen pei'uiits used nioi-e than once; that is they use the
siubbs for- protection. I have seen liquor brought in on them.
•'i700y. Y«ai have travelU'd in tin? country a good deal. I suppo.se/ Yes.
•'17010. Have yt»u ob.sei-ved how the license system is working ; whether it is an
iiitprovement on the old system .' It is certaiidy not an improvement on the old system,
fur' there is a great deal more drinking going on, and you hear parties saying, " I wish
ihei-e was no liijuor to be got.' They say that after they get through with their spree.
•1701 1. You hear that the country through /-—Yes.
- -'J n ■ ;
Y'ou think that .some men who di'ink would rathei'
they say so at all events.
not have li(|Uor ! -
•17012.
I MM'lf le( 1 1 y \ I in"y ."Ml > ■■^^ » «n «iii i:»^-nii.^.
•"wOl.J. You believe that drinking has increased ui\der the present system.' In
tile towns it has decidedly incre;>scd. I have travelled 100 miles east to west and SO
mirth 1^' ' >nth.
>i I II I ' ''It'll.
■'IT Ji 1. l>o you believe from your observation and from the rliaracter of the people,
lal prohibitiiui, with the pernnt system, could be enfoived '. Sci f;ir as the cuuiitiy is
iiiiicerned, there .vould be no trouble at all ; any trouble which might occur would be
in the town.s.
•"1701.'). From coming into contact with th»' people, which you necessarily do as an
aLTcnt, have you any reason to believe that if a j)lebiscite had lieen taken there would
iiave been a majority in faxour of prohibition .' If the tem]ieran(e peojile had organized
ilieui.seKfs well there would ha\i' been a big majority in favour of ;i pleiiiscite. Still they
might not organize them.selve.s, for the rea.son that the temperance people L(enerally fail
ill that way. If they did so, the verdict might be reversed.
•<70I(). Then you think the result would de|)end on their oigaiiization .' Yes, and
'.II the amount of energy they used.
•">"017. Did the li(pior tratHi' organize against prohibition I — ^'es, and will do so
■I- long as there an- dollars •ind cents in the traHic.
■i701S. Do yf>u believe the strength of the tratlic is in the proHt got from it I —Yes,
icve that.
I l>
in
■iii I
iilii' !
359
if
i'
111?'
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
;170H'. W'liiit WHS vour ()l)s<>rvHti(>n of the lieciise law in Onturio; did it wi>ik well .'
• — N<». T Imvo seen t<w) iiiurli (Iriiikin^' uiuIit tlic liociis- law and too such drunkenness
under the Scott Aet. I saw the Seott Act in operation in a little town calle<l Alliston,
and e\erv hotel kept at least halt' a harrel of l)eer. Under the Scott Aet when any one
got drunk the sellers took care of the men and saw them taken home, and did not leave
them out in the cold to freeze during the winter weather.
Ii)j Jmhje MvDonald ;
'MO'H). Was there more drinking in the houses iindei- the old system .' I could not
say thiit. 1 know that after the closing hours of the hotels, the wholesale deali'i's k?ep
open for them.
.'J702I. Is that so that the p(Miple can get lii|Uor.' Yes. I have seen tliri-e hottles
among two men in their room, and the men would he drunk most of Sunilay.
.'{701.'L'. hid you notice under the old law that people got a (piantity of liipior in by
permit and kept on drinking it until it was all consumed '. Yes, T noticed that too.
.■J702.H. You think in th<! rural districts there would l»e no trouble in enforcing a
prohihitory law f Y'es.
•■{70"_'l. Has it heen part of the duty of the Mounted Police to enforce the law in
the rural distiicts I — Certainly.
'Miyi't. How would you nu'et the ditficulty of snuigglhigundei' a j)rohil)itory law .'-
I helieve there would \w: very little smuggling in the country places.
.■{70l't). Was tiiere not smuggling under the permit system .' We slo])pe<l it. The.c
are many men who are afraid to hr-eak a law, hut let the law once l>e broken <<v let the
Government break the law, then it becomes almost legal to do so.
.'570l.'7. The (Jovernment did not snuiggle in liipior. 1 am asking if smuggling had
to be kept down by the police force, how would you hope to j>revent it under a prohiiii
tory law f So far as 1 am concerned F do not believe there would be any smuggling.
.■i702i^. Y'^ou think that if there was a prohibitory law enacted the |)eople would fall
right into the way of ob.serving it .'■ -Y''es, so far as the country is concei-ned, but I know-
there would be trouble in the towns.
.57020. How do you account for the fact that the memljcrs returned to the North-
west [..egislature wei'e in favoui' of adopting a license law? — T cannot account for it
directly, but 1 know generally what are my feelings and 1 generally act according to
them, and I find that othei- people generally do the same. If I elect a man under
disguise, who says he will be in favour of prohibition and at the same time is a drinkei-.
T find that he generally goes with his party.
.■i70.'iO. Hut take, foi' instance, .Moose .law. There both candidates were licen.sc
men atul the temperance men did not bring out a candidate. How do you account for
the fact that so many canilidates were elected in favour of a license law? fan you ac
count for it I — I can to a certain extent. We will take the case of an informer, which I
have been. I went and infonued, and the mendiei-s of the church I go to looked ujMin
me as an informer.
.■{70'U. They looked upon you with contempt? — Yes.
'MO'-^'l. Because you informed against men who broke the law ? Yes.
■S70.'{.'i. Were those church members temperance men ! No, they were not.
.■{70.'U. Y\iu believe that uu)st of the people in the Territories are fiiends of prohibi
tion ? — Yes. outside the towns, but there is a tlifference in the towns.
.■?70.'{.">. In the towns I suppose there is a large nundjer? — (.^uite a large number.
.■<7U.S(i, That being the case those people surely would look upon you with contemi>i
as being an informer — 1 refer to ])e<)ple favourable to ])i'ohibition. Were the people
who l(Mik<>d upon you with contempt favourable to jjrohibition / - Yes.
H70.S7. With a large section of the towns favourable to ]irohibition aiul the people
in the rural districts favourable to it, how do you account for candiilates getting elected
who favoured a licen.se law ] — I do not kno"'.
.17038. Ts it not inexplicable ?— Yes.
■■<70.'?(). It certainly seems to be inexplicable, if the sentinu'nt of the people is as you
say it is ? — 1 fully believe the sentiment is that way. It is a matter of dollars ami cents
Dixc.w Camehox.
360
11
! ill
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
with (I f^iMxl nmny nn'ii. I l>olii'V(' tlif |>eriiiit system wiis (I was ifoinij to jiut it pietty
strongly) directly in oj){M»siti<ni to tfinjit'iuiu't' ]ifiiu'ipli's.
37040. It lias In-eii statotl before the Coiuinissioiit'iN that the Lieuteiiaiit-Governor
;,'ei»erally acted on the recommendation of leading men or of MemWers of the l.«>f,'islature
ill j^raiitin^ permits? T have no doubt he did.
•'57041. That l«'iii<,' the case, why did not the party fuxourahle to prohibit ion put
t'lirwai-d candidates and elect them to the l^e^islature instead of electing; meinbers favour-
;d)le to a license law t So loiii; as the peojile have the traffic before them and it is leyal-
i/ed iiy lnw for the jK'oplo are a law abidiii!;; people they will consider it ri;;ht to a
certain extent to use li(|uor, and it is pretty hard to lu'eak down a law on those j.;rouiids.
( >f course the people say that this or that man drinks. I know parties up there who
drink and ;;et the worse cf liipior.
.■i704l'. You say that both were candidates for the Lej:islaturc and they ^nt the
worse of lii|Uor and were both drinkin^^ iiicn .' They are both license men.
.■{704."t. With the license candidates runnini;. could not a )>rohibitionist have been
elected, ruiiniiiLt as a third candidate,' -No.
.'{7014. Why .' IJecause they were not ors^'anized.
.■{704-">. Then the election of license men was really because the temperance people
ilid not or;iani/,ean<l brim; out a candidate f--Ves.
.■5704t). Did those interested in the liipior business oruani/e and brin;,' out candi-
dates?— Yes.
.■?7047. Can you explain in any wayaljout the liiiuoi' men oruaiii/im,' and briiijiing
uut can<lidatcs? The intluence of the li([Uor men uiid their oru;ani/ation is directed
to obtainin;; licenses.
3704S. And the temperance men soted for such candidates?!— Yes, I am sorry to
say I voted for one of the two candidates who faNoured license, wliii-h 1 will never do
.i^aiii if I live to be as old as .Melliusalab.
■■{704'.l. Il is stated that one of the candidates did not drink .' Then [ am wioni^ly
iiit'iirmed.
•■t70"iO. It is stated that f)ne of the candidates, 1 rej)eat, did not drink. I stated
v\liat 1 have heard. T know one and ha\e seen him drinkiny.
A j;entliMiiaii present, who said lie was the editor of the >roose .Jaw Tiiiirx, arose
and said :
I have heard the statement of the witness, and in reply I wish to say that his as-
-eition in re<,'ard to both of the gentlemen who were candidates at the last election, is not
correct.
.■?70")l. WITNKSS I witlulraw that part of my statement.
The Conimi.s8ion adjourncci, to meet at Caluary, No\cnd)er 7.
Hi:
8di
;il!
Liquor Traffic — Xorfli-west Territories.
I'ALCAllY, Noveml)or7. IH!):.'.
The Royal CnminisHion on tlu- Liqimr Tratlii- met here tonlay.
Present :
.Jii)(;k McDonald. Ukv. Dh. MiLeoo.
Ji'iKiK M<'1)()NALI), ill opt>i\iiii; tho prooeediims, said : \ have to aimoiiiuo that
the sitting; of the l{oyal (Commission on tiie Liquor TraHif is now open for Imsiness.
Her Majesty's Uoyal eommissi-in, luulci' the ifreat seal of tlie |)oniinion, was remi at
Winnijvi;, and so tlie reailinff may be dispense*! with here. 1 may rejieat tlte statement
made at other phiees, that tho Commissioners on eMteriny upon tlie (liscliari;e of their
dutits unanimously ajjreed that (h'unkenness is an evil, and therefoi'e we do not desire to
j;et evidence on that point. The evidence the Commissioners desire is of a more practi-
cal kind, viz., in connection with the license law and its workinfj, as compared witii
prohibition in places where the latter system has l)een in i>|)eration, and other matti'r>.
of a like nature. Followinjj the practice adopted by the Commissioners, we will luiw
proceed to take tiie evidence of the flavor of tlie town.
v..\
ALEXANJ>KH l..l'CAS, of Caltrary, tinaiuial and real estate ai;ent, on beinifduly
sworn, depo.scd as follows :
By JinJye MrDomild :
'3~0')2. 1 undei-stand you ai-e Mayor of Calfiary? I am.
.{700:5. Ts tluM a town or a city ? It is u town under an < )nlinanceof the North
west Territories.
.37054. How lai'j;e a municipal l)o<ly is here.' — There are si.x councillors and :i
Mayor.
370"),"). Are they all elected by the people / — Yes.
370r)(). How lon^r have yuu held the position of ^fayoi?- Since June, IH'J.S.
.■?70r)7. Are you elected for a year '.' Yes.
.■?70")S. How loii^t liave you resided in the Territories / — -Since ISSG.
.'{70")!). Have you lived all that time in Caljraiy ? Yes.
.■{70ttO. Did you come here from one of the other provinces?- I came here finm
Lambton County. Ontario.
.■$70(il. When you left there in ISStJ, what .system was in force, lici'iise or prohibi
tion ? 1 am inclined to think it was ])rohibition.
.'57062. The Scott Act had been passed : do you know whether it had been enforci'il
or not '! — Yes, 1 think it was enforced.
.■{70(53. Are you able to speak concerniiii; tin* woi'kinyof the Scott Act /---Not vcit
much. I was there occasionally. There wei'e many complaints and prosecutions fir
illej,'al sellini;.
.■{70(>4. Do you mean at Lambton ? — Yes. at that time.
3700"). You observeil that when you made <Kcasional visits there? — Yes.
370(56. You are aware that the Act was subsetpiently repealed .' Yes.
Alk.xandkk Lucas.
362
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57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 18»4
;57<lt)7. Tlion you ciiino to tlic Ntn'tli-wt'st 'IVrrituries and t'onml |ii-oliil)iti<>ii iiikI a
|ii'niiit >*_\>t»'in in t'oi'cc Iutc / -Yes.
.'I'OtiS. Wliat WITH your inipit'ssions (if its woikinj; .' You couiii j;;fi ail llic li(|Uor
you wanti'tl if you paid I'O cents a j;lass for it.
.S70(>'.>. W'heie i-ould you yet it / -In saitMins in liie town.
.'{707<*. Were there many of tliein ; I lieard it rejiorted that there w«'re i;t diH'erent
>aliHins in Cai^'ai'v wlieii I came here in ISSti, allhou;;h I do not know it to lie so for a
fact .
."17071. You .say the strong lic|uor was I'O cents a ^dass ? - Ye.s.
.'<707l.'. What was the kind of li(|uor used, was it pure or adulterated ? I could not
say alxiut that. I heard that it was iululterated, and also that it was tirsl-class.
.■<7(>7-"!. Was the sale open f -Not as a rule; the diM»r was locked with a spring;
\,K-k.
.■<707l. How did you obtain admittance f You ivipped at the diMir and were ad-
mitted into a r4M)ni where there was nothin;,' to sell. If you wei-e ac(piainte<l with the
proprietor of the place, you were served there.
.■5707">. How lon<( di<l that state of thinj{s continue ? — For a i-ouple (»f years.
.'1707ti. Then what hapjiened? There appeared to he a total cessation of any efloils
to enforce the law. SalcHins ran openly, and there were a great many of them.
•■>70('7. Was litpior openly .sold ? Yes.
."(71)78. Was the jirice reduced from -'jO cents .' -Yes, it came down to •_'.") cents.
.T707!(. While the liipior was the sanu-, some goiKl and some had .' -Yes.
•'i70S(). How long did that state of things c»)ntinue? — Until the introduction of tlu^
license system.
.'57081. How many places have you in Calgary that are licensetl ? The Inspector
will he al)le to give you the e.xact number.
;5708'J. Taking Calgary as it was under the old system and as it is now, have you
noticed any change in regard to the maintenanceof order in the town? — I do not think
there is any change ; the people are just as law-abiding now as they were then.
.'170H;{. What alniut disonh'i's in the streets and matters of tiiat kind .'—I do not
think there is much dillercnce. There is a little more di-unkenness.
i'?708|. Tt is more open, 1 suppose, the sellers do not keeji tliem hidden as they
ilid .' No.
•■t70S.j. Do you know anything in regard to matters outside the town / — Not jier-
^uiially : I do not travel much in the country.
•'5708(i. It has been stated in other places that eau de Cologne, pain-killer and such
liipiids were u.sed as beverages. Have you a'ly knowledge of that fact? T have heard
it reported that such things were used jirevious to 188(1.
."17087. Taking Calgary from the time you iiave known it, could not and did not
tlic people tak(> such liipiids in place of whisky, if they couUl not get it ,' They could
irct all they wanted for "lO cents a glass at the rate of .'^■_'..")0 and .'?:") fier bottle.
^17088. .Judging from your observation, did the people engaged iti the tratiic m;ike
iiiiiney .' — Yes.
•'1708!). You l)elieve they did so?— -Yes.
•■>70i)0. Was that their oidy means of li\ing? That was all the means of living
tiny had, I thiidv.
."170itl. How do you find the license law work, as aciti/en. Does it appear to work
^;l1isfactorily or otheiwi.se ?- I think it works satisfactorily.
.'1701Il'. Are there any suggestions you desire to offer to the Commission in regard
til inipru\ements ii\ the license law ? The otdy suggestion I could otl"er woidd be this,
that i)ars shouUl 1h^ public, that they should be j)laced in front rooms, with glass win-
ilows, and the curtains should be kept up during the prohibited hours, so that any person
walking on the streets, sui-h, for example, as the Inspector, could see whether any one
"MS in the room or not.
■"170it;i. \''ou would have sale contined to a room fronting on a public street ?— Yes,
Hiid open to the public view.
1701I4. In 188G wiis this town a station for the Mounted Police ? Yes.
3t53
!lil[
ii! i!
i :
m
Liquor TmOic — North-west Territories.
.'{"OIJ"). Sii|i|MiNr II |)ruliil)it<iry law wt-i*)- <-iia)-t<Ml, ii law pi-nliihitin;; tlir inuniifactiiic.
iiii|HirlHliiiii and salt* <it' iiitoxicatiii;; liijuiti's for Im-vci-h;;*- |iui'|iit.sfs, woiilil ymi (Icciii il
riitlil tiiaf hicwcrs ami (iislilli-rs sliouiii Ik- <'(iiiipt>iisal)*<l for tlit-ii' loss nf plant and
niai'liiiHTV '. ^'^s, if it were a proliihitory law lliat would prolnWit.
.■JTOUC). That is a law whirli would dose up the husinfss / Yes.
.■|7()!)7. |)o you doidft tliat sm-li law would have tliaf effect ? 1 doul)t the aWility to
enforce such a law.
.■f70i)f<. In the North westTei-ritories ? Yes, that is for partial prohiliition : pro-
hiltition for the whole honiinion nii^ht 1m- enforced.
.'!70'.i',l. Have you reason to iM'lievi; that any illicit sale takes place in Calsjary ' i
do not think there is now.
.S71(J(). Takinj; the nuinlM'r of places that existed hefore the license law cauu' into
operation and the mnnher now, which would he the ;,'reater .' There was a yrealei
nundier pre\ iously.
Jif/ U>r. Dr. M<ho<l:
.'17101. hid the .salodiis to which you ha\e iefei-r<'d ctmtinue after the license system
came in t I think thei'e were It) oi- 1 '_' iit a time; .sometimes more and sometimes less.
•■5710'_'. Was there no machinery then t<i jn-event this illicit sale,' -Very little that
you could see.
•■57IO-"i. W'er-e the prosecutions carried on mainly l>y the Mounted Police? -Yes.
■■i71t)4. Ilji\f you i-eason to helieve that the .Mounted Polict- did their duty, or wa.s
it (lone only occasionally '. I Ix-lieve to a certidn extent they did their duty. < )f coui->e
it depends entirely on what they considered their duty to he.
•■?7I0.">. hid they do their (hity in closinj,' up illicit places and in prosecutintf .' 1
thii\k they did.
.'{71l)ti. 1 think you said you thoui^ht t here was nioiv drinkinji; now than previously'
- That is the ojiinion at which I arrive<l from my ol)servation.
.■>7 107. lias your police force Im-cu increa.sed of late years ? -No.
■'{710'^. What is the sti-en;;th of the force f -The Chief and two men.
.■t710!l. ho you |)reside at the police coui-t ?— Durin;; this sunnnor I have done so.
•'{7110. What are the otleiu'cs or char;^es j,'enerally hrouj^ht before the court.'
Drunkenness.
."171 1 1. Are there many con\ii-tions for drunkenness?- -I .su[>pose there is an a\cra'.:i'
of two or three per week.
•"(7 1 1 ■_'. Ai'e the police instructeil to take up those drunken people who are disoi'derly .'
- Only tho.se whr) are disorderly or itu'iipahle.
;17I l-'l. Then if a man is ijuiet and f{oing honu-, he is allowed to j,'o honu' ? — Yes.
■■17114. Are you able to say whether flrunkenne.ss luis been more prevalent of lati'
years than before.'- No. I was a<tinj,' iis M.i^istrate, but I never looked over tlif
I'ccords.
.$71 I"). I suppo.se the records of the ]K)lice court would show this? — I think that tin'
Chief will be al)le to ;^ive you the figures from his Ixioks.
.'J7 I HI. 1 suppose your predecessor acted as Magistrate when he was Mayor? — Nn
h(- did not.
•'17117. Who was the Magi.sti'ate ? — Mr. CJeorge Murdoek acted as Magistrate.
There is no Police Magistrate, neither is the Mayor the Magistrate by virtue (jf lii>
olHce, l)ut he has to be specially a]i]>ointed. Mr. Murdoek was acting Magistrate.
.'171 b"^. The license system came into foi-ce on 1st May, and we have heard tli.it
licen.ses were gi'anted here iK'foi'e that. Can you explain whether that statement i-
correet ? — The ])eople were to sell temperance drinks.
•'$71 19. How luany such places were allowed? — I could not give you thecorrcii
Hgures.
.'17120. ho you know whether the .sellers confined themselves to such li(|Uors, or diil
they .sell intoxicants ( Were any j)rosecuted for selling intoxicants T -Some were, liui
iu)t many.
;$71'21 Have you reason to Ixdieve that there is sale after houi's and on Sunday^
here now?- I have no personal knowledge <ff it.
Alk.xandkh Lucas.
T
lagistniti'.
je of lit-
liite.
Biird thiit
tenu'iit i-
lie correit
|irs, 111- iliil
k-ere, I'l"
Sundiiy-
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■°t7l--. Iluvf voii, us Mtiviii' lit' tilt' town, any iiii|it'rssiiiii tlijtt iIiiti' is.' I lliitik
<ilif uf tlii'iii iliirs, liiil iiiit to II ^rnil I'Xt.iMit.
.■{71--'l. IliiNf llii)st> piirtii-s l«>cii |iriiscrut('(l t Nu. I (liink tlifi-i- Imvi' liccii sunn!
I'lust's, liiit tlii'v liavt' hot coiMc Ix't'ort' nit- mid iirr not <>t' paitifs in tin- town. I tliink tlitt
liit-n^et-s arc living; up to tlic law in ('iil>;iiiv ; nt l)'a.>*t most of tlu'iii nrv, piftty sti'ictly.
.'i7l-t. A.s to till- i|u<'Kti(in of proliiliilioii, ymi tliink tlic old system did not pro-
liiliit f -No, not II pai'ticlf ; it was no ^mmI.
;{7ll.'"). Was that lM'cini.stMtf ihf iiidiscriininiitc issue of pi'i-iiiits.' No, I think tiiat
liad very little to do with it.
■'i7l-t>. Were the peniiits i.sHued tpiite freely / — Yes, durin;; the last two \ciirs tliev
Were issuinl ton ;;i'('at extent.
•■{71-7. !>o you know whether }H'rniits were issued to men in the i I'lide, I mean in
the illii-it selliii;,' of li<|Uor? I do not think so.
•■i7l-'^. Mow did iheyp't their li(|Uor ? Uy .seeret .sliipment, liy siiiujL(i;liti},'iiiid so on.
•'(7 1 1".'. We have Im'cii informed that a man won!! L>'et a permit for live or ten ^mIIohs
.'.ml that lui would <{et in ."lO or tU fellows ; the liijuor would 1h- held on the stiili of (he
permit, and .so lon;^; lis the i|uantity on hand did not exceed what was speeilled on the
■■tulihewas safe the still) standin;; lietween him and prosecution. |),i you know
whether that was the ease in C'alj^ary or not? ^'es, I have lieeii informed thai thv!
decision of the Court was that the man was protected l>y the stuK, if he had not a
larircr (piantity than was specitied.
•■i7l.'50. Could any one examine into how he i,'ol it! It rested with the prosecution
to show that he t;ot it ille;,'ally.
•"{"l-tl. Do you lielie\t' that there were men who did sell illicitly and who j;ot their
lii|Uor (of course they siiiu^';,'led more ni' less of it ) in liy jiermit, and I hey used the pro-
tet'iion of the permit for an indetinite leiii;th of time.' I lielieve a i;real many of thost!
who .Sold through saliMins kept a i|uantity for selliiif; liehiiid the liar in such a jHisition
that it might lie noticed and seized, hut I do not lielieve oiieteiitJi or one-t wciity -fifth
pai't of the li(|Uoi' came in on permits. It was smuggled and kept hidden and sold when
they had an opportunity.
'■ul'A'2. Wa.s it protected liy the stuhs ? A'^es, to tlu^ ^^\tent of the stulis held.
;t7|.'i;>. I suppose they were careful never to have a(|uantity exce»Mling tliei|uantity
~|pe(itied on the permit f -They never had more than the quantity speeilled.
■'i7l.{4. Speaking of the (|Uestion of [irohihition in a large way, you ha\t> expressed
an opinion aliout compensation. l>o you helieve a general prohihitory law. that is a law
|iioliil)itiiig the manufacture, importation and .sale of intoxicating liipiors for lieverage
puriMises, could he fairly well enforced? — .Judging from my experience in the North-west
'rerritories, I do not liolieve so. The attempt was maile to prohiliit the manufacture
and sale and there were 1,000 police in these Territories and |iatrolliiig the country, and
vet we know that carload after carload of lii|uor came into the country.
•■{7l-'5r). Do you lielie\e the police force wtM'e as vigilant as th(\v might have lieen ?
I helieve the profits made out of the liusiness were such that the dealers could att'ord
til i,'et liipior in.
•■!71.'{<). Do you think that if there was a prohihitory lasv for the whole country,
t.iirly well enforced, it would he productive of henetit / -If you could pass a prohii)itory
law that could prohiliit, I lit.li-ve it would lie a lienetit to the i;ountry.
•■i7l."{7. Have you ohserved whether the drink trade, as cai'ried on in the Territories,
li.is had an injurious ett'ect on the liusiness of the Territories and upon social conditions
and home life'/ — I do not think to any greater extent than in any other part of the I'ountry.
By Judy AL Donald :
•'>71."{8. Do you know that latterly under the permit system the police made it a
l"'iMl to cancel the stuli which they found at the time of delivery / — Yes.
.■!7l;39. So this cancellation ilid awav with the system of which you have spoken? -
V.-.
;t7l40. I understiHxl you to say that drinking had increased under licen.sc? It is
diinikenness that has increased — it is more apparent. As to the consumption, I do not
know : I do not think it has increased.
365
ii '
I I
M
i
H'"
I,
Hiv
m i
i'i
LuHior Tninic — Xoitli-wt'st IVnitories.
.'17141. 'I'lit'ii yoii (III lint think (lriiikin)( lias incri'iiNtMl f — No.
•171 \'J. Kut ilriiiiki'iiiifss liiiN inci'fiiHfil : at nil i>vfiit.s, it is nuin' u|i|ini'<-ht f Vi's.
•t71l'(. Yiiii liavc s|iuki-ii iif till- iiiiMi wliii iisi'd the siuIm ot' |MTiiiitH until th*-
piilic)' iul))|)li-(l the HVHti'in of ciiiu-i'liiitiiin. T\w M'll«*rH, yuii hnlifvt-, hiul n l<ir;,'iT Htock
lit' lii|iiiir hiililcn Hiini*>wli<Tf that they t'oiild lu-iii); forwiiiil hh occiiHion r<M|iiiri><l I \vh.
'M \ H. 'I'liiMi iiiilv pai'l lit' tlirir Mtock was fX|His*'<l t Yen.
;t711"). huyuuknuw wIikIIiit lii|iiiir was lii'<iii;;lit in siti-cIimI in (litfri'i-nl kimls ut'
liackaut'M, in liari'ds ut' riff anil suyar f - Yes : I know a niniilRT nt' ><»'izufes wen- niadr
• if pai'kii^cs <'iin('<>iiit><l ill supir, salt and apples.
.'171 Hi. Do you know whether the pulice lined Imiiits with which they Inired into
the pa''ka;;e,s I I have heard of thiMii havin;; the'ii in l{e;;iiia, and nf their Imriiiu into
pa('ka;,'es and liarrels jiiiil eMiiiiinin^ them.
.■f71l7. Have you known of oeeasioiiH in whieli earloadN of eases nf lii|iioi' were
liroii^ht in, and when the police iMired into them t(< ascertain whether the liijuor was four
pel' cent lieer or not, it was found to Im- stroiij^er liijiior I Yes, I have heard .so.
.'171 If*, ^'oii have ;,'iven your opinion of a prohihitory law. I wish to ask you as
Mayor of this town u i|uestiiin on another line, ^'ou an,' <le|H!iidiii); for the Hettlement
of the country <in immigration, I suppose '/ Yes.
.'571 !!•. And that immi^'ration is ehielly from the countries of KiirojM'f- Ye», partly.
•°t7l-'>(). 1 will read ymi a (piotation from a iKiok recently written up<in your coiiiitrv.
It is a Work written by .Mr. Warliiirlon Pike, entitled: "The Itarren tiroiind ot
Northern Canada. ' I know him.
.'t7l.")l. This liook was puWlished liy McMillan iV ("o., in l<<)iidon ii"d New York.
The author makes the followin;; remark in repird to the prohiliitory In m the North
west 'I'erritories ;
" .\t llif |iii'si!iil (lay tile I'lolijliitiiiM .\it iii'lcis tliat even tlii' wliile iiiau >.i tlic Nurtli \Mv<i
iiiiist lie tciii|»'iiitt', llu'iiliy cinisinu vvhisky to lie clcai and liad, liiit |ili'iitifiil willial. It in niii piixiiiL
liiiu Miii'li a law cxJNtM ill a cimiitiy where tin- wliitc iiicii nut only wiiiit liriiik Imt ijn ilriiik in ii|ii'ii
■ letiitlicf of lilt- i'(iiiiiii»iiiIh nf ii iiiotliei'ly < himtiimiciiI. "
r have read you that statenieiil as e.\pre.ssing the opinion of a stran^^er. Do vmi
agree with his views/ I do.
■■I71.">2. That is ill rej^ard to the particular disirict to which the writer is referriiijj.'--
Y(>s. T ha|)pened to hriii;,' that ffentlemaii from the Oaljjary country to the >. nth in
my own ri;;. llis experiences deal more with the country north than with the C'ali;;ii\
district.
.■S71.")-"5. I was not aware that you had any knowledge of him. He further says :
" III the iiHmlli of .Imic, IHS!(, I left Calfiaiy tor a dii -e of 'JK) miles to Kdiiioiitoii. It is lln
.siartiiiH point for the f.'i'eat iioitlierri eoiiiiliy eoiiliolled liy the llinlson |>ay Coinpaiiy. and with lln
e\eeptioii of the .scattered trading posts and an od'asional Protestant and Koiiian ( 'utholii' iiii.ssion.
the eoiuitiy i.i entirely given up to what it wa.s evidently intended for. a hunting gioniid for tin
Indians."
I suppose in those days the country was .scarcely sett led ?- -Ye.s ; it has lieen settled
not very Ion;,'.
.H71i'»4. His great object was to shoot and kill the moose ox ? — Yes.
;l71;').'i. Mile.s north of Great Salt Lake? — -Y'es.
.'I71.')<'). I wish to ask you as a citizen, knowing the cla.ss of peojile who emigrate
from the old country and settle here, whether you can form an opinion on this point
taking the country as it is and knowing the laws as e.xisting, would you he ajit to <,'it a
larger emigration from the mother country of ti good kind into this section of country
with a jiroliibit«iry hiw in force or with a license law ? — I have no kiiowletlgc or uii\
means of knowing, except from the people who do come here.
.■{71.">7. Are they jieople with jirohihition sentiments ? — No. 1 should say 7."» p' r
cent of them were jieople who had always lieen able to get their beer or whisky wlnn
tliey wanted.
.'{71.")H. Are they people who partake in moderation of such liquors ? — Y'^es.
.'{71.")!). They ate not iiitemjK;iate people 1 — No.
Ale.vandkh Luc.\s.
366
57 Victoria.
iSessional Papera (No. 21.)
4. i894
|)(i yoii
("iili;ai>
It isilM'
will) 111'
fill- ilii
ItMl SCttllM
I ciiiifinit''
Lis iMiinl
to ii>'^ i
\i CtlUllllV
ii'i" or iiii\
:i7liiU. Do yon think lluit tlio.si- ))<to|ili' to wlioni yoii Iiiim- rcterrcil iin- a ^oikI cIiihs
lit' |M'o|il*', law iiliidin^ liiul .moImt f Yom.
■'I'l'il. Hiii'ii n> you, lis a |iulilic man, woiilil likr to oni^otira^** ami liriii;,' to tho
' oinitry in ini'i'i'a.sin;{ nuinlMTs ; Yt-n. Wi-liavi' iluiiii^ i.n- last iiiontli lliroii^'li our
iillirr l(ii<u>.'lit in I'lO |ifo|ilf tVoin W'ashinglcdi r«'riiloiy iinil Idalio in th«' l'hit«Hi MtatoH,
;i iifwil many of wlioni wt-rc (.'anadians.
■'171*1-. l)oi^>« tli)> Kami' .statiMiii-nt 'i|i|ily to tlii>m as appliiMl to tin* immi^rantN from
tin- old country ' [ fancy so. The old I'ountiy ]ii'o|(|t' sci'in to I m* fond of ihcif iwcr
wliilc the American-, drink moi'c whisky.
Hi/ lirr. I),: M.htnl :
'■\'\i}'.\. How lon^ wiiH Mr. I'ikc in the country ? -Fidin his conversation. I should
iliink alxiut two or three years in the northern country.
;i7ltU. I think he says liiat nine out often |)eo|ile drink. Is that your olMerviitiuii f
— I shiiuld say nine out of ten peojile in the noi'thern country drink.
.■t71t>-"). Is that tiMU' of tlie disti'ict of('iil;fary and the siirroundin;; country ,' I
iliiiik not.
.'<7l<i(i. He also says " I'rohiltition actively enforced causes whisky to lie |ileiitifiil.''
I.> that a correct statementr It was plentiful, from the fact that Ihei-e wei'e lai'j;e profits
III lie made out of it.
.'i71ti7. I'lentifulness then, I suppose, \va.s not caused liy the Prohiliilion Act ! ll
«a-. caused liy the profits.
/ly Jndi/i jIr/)onit/(l :
.'("ItiH. The Words used ai'c : "Causes whisky to he dear and had. yot plentiful
rtilhal.' -Yes.
Jii/ H>i: Dr. J/rLeod:
• l7K)9. Do you think there was lc..,s whisky I ir<iui,'ht into the country then than
hiiw ! No.
•'i7170. Was the old Hy.stem. which was called till' prohibition system and also the
|ii'iiiiit system, really a system of proliiliition or |H'rmission ?--It was a .system of j>ro-
liiliitiiiii. It prohiliited peopli' who did not hold permits from ;;(;ttiii); liijuor.
■(7171. lUit was it not true that every one could ;tet p(»rmits? -No. I have noticed
ilic syslcm a ;,'ood deal, and it was only after the decision of the courts that people kept
ilic lii|Uor protected liy stiilis. It all amounted to this : that a man who ho,d in his
piissession a stul) was jirotected and could not lie prosecuted if the amount of li<|unr
wii- the same as specihetl on the permits or stubs, and one man could hold a permit
■tiid lii|Uor for aiuither person.
•17 17-. You mean that one man would have the liquor and another the permit?- -
I lie man mu.st have the permit.
■ i7l7."i. Then the permit would i;o from one nian to another 1 — Yes.
m
II
liv
7.') per
sky when
367
ill
<;!'i
.
;
i t
1 ■ \'
\ ■ ,
1
t ^ ^
\' '
'•i\
Liquoi- Traffic — North-west Territories.
THOMAS DOWI.INC, of Calj,'arv, CoUei'tor ..f Iiilaiid IJ.'vcmi. , mi h.'iii;,' duly
sworn, (U'piisi'd ii.s t'tillows :
Jii/ Judtji' MvJjoiKtl'l :
.S7174. 1 )id you conie here from oik; of ilic otlit r itrovinci^s / ICiiiiif licrt'. from
New HruiiswH'k.
•'(717"). l-'rom wlial County ?—Fiom York.
•"<717t'>. From tlu! rity of Fredcrictou '.' Yes.
•■i7l77. 'I'lif C'Oinmissioii liavo lidd sittiiif^s at l''i'c(lt';'ictoii and have taken evidont-c
in rt'<j;ard to tlic law there. So 1 will not trouhleyou with (luesl.ion.s al)Oiit the law there.
Hid yon eome ilirectly from there to the N'ortli-wesl Territories.' No. I eame out in
1S7S. and joined the Mounted Poiiee, and continued in the force until liSM,"*.
.'{717S. Then did you settle down liero ? — I was transferred to Calgary. Until last
May, I was in Winnipeg;; i was then in the Inland Kevenue I)e])artnif!nt. F hail Iteen
in Mritisii Colund)ia.
■'1717!'. How long were you in the Mounted I'oliee ? -From 1S7S to ISX,").
■'i71i^0. What was your duty in connection with it .'I was a police otlieer.
■■i7lSl. Weie you stationed at diffei-ent places? — At Fort Walsh, Fort Maeleod and
Calgaiy.
.'i71f*L'. When you came here, was the permit system in foi'ce .' Yes.
.■{7IS.'i. Was the Nortii-west Afounted Police Force faithful in cai'rying out that
law ?— ^'es, to my knowledge.
.■{71S4. Did you tinil any ditficulty in enf{)rcing it? - Sometimes.
.'i7IS."). Was there any ssmuggling? — Y'es. The police destroyed large ((uantititis of
iiipiur.
;>7lS(i. N\'(>re thei'e any illicit stills? Yes. I n one or two instances they destroyed
stills.
.■{71IS7. We have lieen told that one of the duties or rights of the police which w^e-
dista. teful to them, was the r'ight of search / Yes.
.'!71M8. They would do tiiat work when they were ordered, but they did not ciret.i
exercise the right fi'eipu'Utly .' That is true.
.■i71'^'.). To what e.vtent did the right of seai-ch go? If the oilict»r received infoniia
tioii that a num had liijuor in his pos.session not covereil hy a permit, he could go and
search the ))renuses throughout, and if he found the liipioi- he could |)rose('ute the paitv
who had it. If it was in the building he destroyed it.
;{7l!t(). [f It was within the reside ice he destroyed it and then prosecuted tiir
party ? Yes.
•■i71!n. To what extent did the right of [)ersnnal search go, if men had li(|Uor on
their persons '? I would search their jiersons.
'■MVyi. Would you take it from them ? I have done so in some ca.ses.
.■5719'i. Was the man ju-osecuted and the litpior destroyed .' The ollicei' who madr
thi> seari'h generally actttl as Magistrate. I do not know of one cast- where the part\
was not prosecuted.
.■{7I'.I4. Would the liipioi' be destroyed befoi-e the prosecution took j)lace .' It \\a-
destroyed in the presence of the man, afttM" he was sentenced.
.'?719-"i. Tile liipior was retained until the case was decided .' Yes.
.'i7 I'.Ml. If he had a permit and it^ covered the amount of li(pior in his possession, h''
was accpiitted ? -Not always. 'J'he rule I adopted, and I think other othcers acted m
same way, was that if a man presenti^d a ;tub to a^-.y otHcer, he had to produce tli>-
original package in which the li<|Uor came, and tht> stub would not jirotect him. I'''h
instance, a man purchasing from the Hudson l>ay Company a ipiantity of liipior iind' i
permit, the liipior would l)e addressed to him, and the otlieer would know when the li(|iiiii
was to arrive at sa\ C'algary (I am not speaking of Calgary). If the licpior was foiui'l
to be in another vessel, the man was pro.secuted.
.'i7P.)7. The permit would not pi-otect him ? — Certainly not.
.'{71i>S. So, not only did the lii|uor have to be within the specified (pumtity but a<'in
ally in the original jiackages? — Yes, in the original packages.
Thomam 1)owi,i\(;.
866
57 Victoria,
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'i7l!l!l. So till' .'IS yniir iudi^mt'lit jiiics, tin- iiii'iiilicis nt' I lie t'lin-c wcic lioiicst in
tln^ii' wiirk .' Yi's. I li,i\i' iifM'i- known ;i ciisc wlicrt^ the police t'iiilt'd to (li,si-liiir;;c
ilicir duties.
• \7'20O. How loiij; liiive yon lield \our iireseni [losiijon in I Ills lown .' I was tians-
ti'ircd lieie in .Miiy IjisI.
M20]. I >oes niucli li<|Uor i-onie in in liond .' When I canie to Cid^ary, (lie dealers,
,.ot antici|(!itin<i lliiit iiii lidan<l |{e\cruie Law woidd lie jiassed when the eoiiiiliy was
opened up, had |iaid liiirh duties on lar^'<' i|Uinitities ot' liijuoi'. ami the I'esult has lieen
that up to this day | ha\e collected very little duty- ' have no doulit that I shall col
lect later on.
."ST-Ol'. \'ou mean that all tlie lii|uoi- came in in hond '. Cei'tainly.
.■5720.'{. The law only I'liine into toire when you cain(! here, I suppose? -Ves.
.'iT'iOI. Wiiat is called the increase of the pei-ndl system did not t.ike place luiiil
utter you let't the t'ol-ee J No; I left some time liefore that.
/>> /I'rr. Dr. Mrl.rnd:
''~i'3)'k You ha\'e spoken of h'ort .Macleoil : was co i ideraiile .imiiiitlim,' canied on
there .' A i,'ood deal.
•')720(). hill vou find l'"oi't .Macleod ahout the li..nlest place in which to enforce a
prohihitory \i\\y '. ('al;,'ary, in l<SS.'i-S|, com|iarcd fa\ oiuahly with l'"ort .Mac|eo<|.
• i7l'()7. iietwcen 1S7S and ISI^."), which were the years you were on the force, did
jirohihition succeed in any de;;ree .' I can oidy say this, that I was at Cali,'ary |iii>\ ioii^
lo the construction of the Canadian l*a<Mtie I'ailway and the duty to a i,'reat extent fell
upon me to admiinster- the law. I w;is considered se\eie as a Magistrate, liut notwith
.standi Hi; all I could do, (plant i ties of li(pior came into thi^ count iv. i'eople w ere ari-ested
and lined, liut it was imjiossihle to keep out the stull'.
.'t7l.'08. Was it not enforced in any decree in construct ion t niie .' It was enforced
dnrin;i the constriK'tion days ; w.'had to try ,iird |U-e\eiit the use of liipror- as mmh as
possible.
•"i7"J'J'.l. I 'id vou succeed in ]ir('\ ent iii^ it in some (ley;iee arnoim the men eni.'ai,'ei|
nri construction wor'k ?- Yes, \.e tr'ied to do it.
•'i7l.M(J. Did you succeed soracwhat ,' 'I'o some extent. I destroyed larue i|uanlitie?,
nf li(|Uor. I destroyed a carload once here.
• M^ll. We have had it in e\ ideriee that iheie wasauieat deal of dilliiirll v in
cnfor'cinn prohibit iin duiinu lie con--ti'Uction period.' Yes, some of t he liipior' was
purchased liy contractors on tlie ('ana>liari I'acilic Railway, who wairled to ;j;et liipior- on
I lie wor'ks iir liritish (-olu'iii)ia an.' to rrrake rrroney oirt of it.
M'lX'l. To jiiilher irp the wa;;es of the irreri, I sirppose ? I think so.
•■t7l.'l;i. l''l'orrr your' oliscr-v at ion and laisje e\peiience, if instead of at liinpr ini; to
enforce ])rdhil)it ion during 'I'''' Jieriod, there had lieen sale of intoxicating' liipmrs
.doiiij; the line, wiiuld tirer'e ha\e iieeri ;i ditVeienl and les.> desii'alile state of things
aiirony' t Ire rrreir ! '1 hey not liipior' any «ay.
;i7"_'l I. .\t'e we to understand that, not w itlisiarrdinu I !ie atti'in)it made to pr'oliiliit
ilie impor'tation and sale of intoxicatinj; liiprors, liiprois were sold in a> lai'ye iprarilities
Old as freely as if n i attempt had lieen rrrade .' I cannot say that. I arrr i:ivirrir vou
lire facts howexei'. 1 was here in ( iliiar'v and had the police for'ce urriler rrr\ comm.md.
•">7-l"i. How main rrnii .' Sixl',- irierr, and there weiealso some police in the iiioun
lairrs, arrd 1 tried e\er'yt hin^' in iii\ |iowei- to c.-iny out iliel.iw. In fact. | wasi-imsj
iler'ed ver'y sescr'e, althouuli it w as my duly to caiiy out I he la w ; luil \\ it h all mv force 1
I'uiild not keep lii|Uoiout of the i-oiiiitry.
."i7'_'ll'i. I'oilld not yon keep it out in any dej^ice ' I destr'oyed a ;,'ood (leal of
iii|iioi' and iiiieil irraiiy men, hut oilier men woulil sprini; up in their' places,
:i72l 7, If vou had rrot madeari at tempi *o enforce prdhiliition and had not succeeded
iis far' as you did succeed, do you tlliirk ther'e Wduld still ha\e lieen moi < ii(pioi'sold and
iiKii'e evil etVects .' 1 n'ather think that would irave Keen the ease.
•'i7l.'lS. Yoir have lived here this year, yoll say, aird the lieetrse law has lieen in
operation liere since 1st May. Have you oli.served whether' there Iras lieen more or less
ih'irnkeiriress than previouslv f lir ni\ opinion thiMe is le -is diirikirnr now.
:}69
■Jl 24**
1
1
1
!!'■
a <
i .
I i;
Li(iiior Trattic — North-west Territories.
'M-2\'.). Tlian tlieic wiis liefoie ?— Yes.
'.\7'2'20. How do you iiccount for tliat ? — I cannot really account for it. I am speak-
inj; from my own observation. Since I came here in May I have .seen very few people
drinking or (h-unk in Califary.
'.\7'2'2l. It is true that in Calgary, i>rior to the introduction of the license system
in May last, there had heen practically a license law in force here for two or three
years? T have no knowledge of it ; T was not here.
."{7---. I vas comj)aring Calgary as it is with its condition under the law in 188.'?-
84 ? -During the time of the construction of tiie lailway, we had quite a hirge popula-
tion here.
.'{7:.'-3. What were the class of people compared with the class now ,' — The class of
men Iumh- now is a sober one.
'M'22i. They were largely navvies then '/ — Yes, the whole country has changed,
you can form an idea, for in 1882 this place was a prairie, and now it is a city.
lii/ Judge McDonald :
.■{"225. [ suppo.se you know the class of people that are here now ; ai-e they generallv
law-ahidiiig people? -Yes.
•"{7220. Are they moilerate drinkers ? — I have not seen any of the inhabitants drink
much.
I'!:::
liii-
THC)MAS EXGLlSFr, of Calgary, Chief of Police, (jn being duly sworn, deposed as
folhiws :
Hi/ Jiidiji' Mr Diina/'l :
."^7227. Do you hold any other position than Chief of Police ? -No.
.■?722S. Mow long have you lived here?- 22 months.
.■}722!l. Where did you reside before that? -In Winnipeg.
.'{72.'U). When; before thiit? In London, Ontario.
.■572.'H. How long have you been Chief of Police? — 22 months.
.■i72.'i2. Were you on the Winnipeg force .' -Yes.
.'>72S.'>. How uiany men have you? — Two beside niyse f.
.■{72IU. Have you anything to ilo with the enforceme.it of the license law ?- Xo.
.'{72."{."). You have no duties to discliarge under it? -No.
.'i72.'5(). When you came hert; the ju-rniit syslem was in force, I suppose f -Yes.
•■i72;}7. And since ]\Iay a license .system ? Yes.
;i72ll,S. How ha\<' you found them work, the present law with the other ; which has
proved to be more satisfactory .' — The pi'i'.sent system.
;i72.'?'.). What was the state of things when you came here ; was li(juor being solil in
the communitv ? ^'es.
;5721(). Was it .sold openly? -Yes.
."57211. In many places? -Yes.
."^72 12. Had you any means of ascertaining wha* kinds of licjuor were sold? Any
kintl you asked for, 1 suppose.
.'$724.'!. Do you know whether it was good or bad? No.
.'57214. Weiv there more places then than now ( -Yes.
."5724."). You .say thei'e were more than you have now? — Yes.
.■{724(!. Taking the two .systems, are you able to say whether there is more li(|Uiii
consumed undei- the present system than under the other/ T think there has been nmri'
liquor consumed since 1st May.
.17247. Do you think that more peojile drink ? — Yes. .
.'17248. I am not speaking of drunkenness, but the consumption of liijuor ? I
think there has been more liquor consumed since 1st May.
Thomas Dowlinh.
370
hicli li:i-
H sold
Anv
Ire li*!
nil II
I'l'ii 111" 111
[[uor
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.S7249. How do yiiu account for thut, witluiloss iuiiiil)ei' of |iliices sellini; '.- Liquor
is clieaper.
.■{T'ioU. You tliiiik that jioople who drink coiisuiiif iiioie ? Yt's.
.■{72")1. Wliat is your opinion in roj^ard to (h-unkenness ! Tlit'ic has heen n.orc
since 1st May than during; tive or six months In-fore. Tlu're.are a lot of railway men
employed workin;,' on the Calvary and Edmonton Railway, an<l they drink a lot.
.S725l*. When you came here, were the N'oi'lh-west .Mounted Police lookim; aftei'
the law 1 -Ye.s.
:\72y>'.\. Did they look after drunkenness or anything of that kind,' Oidy drunk-
enness among the Indians, ] think.
.'$7254. Have y(tu any suggestions you could make in ivgai'd to the license system,
which would he i)eneticial to tiie comnmnity / \'es. It is veiy ditlicult to enforce the
law at present. The hars are j)laced in tiie rear of huilding and it is hard for the Ins-
pector to ascertain what is going on. Jf licensees wei-e comjx'lled to place the bar in the
front of a huilding and if the parties were also compelletl to I'emove screens, those changes
\Miuld do more than anything else to assist in the law heing cari-ied riut.
.'i72-")"). You concui' in the suyLfestion m.-ide hv the ]Mavo
-Ye
'M'2M. Are there any other suggestions you can offer .' F do not think so.
Bi/ lim: Dr. Mchod :
.S7--")7. I think you said it was not your duty to enforce the license law. Wh.ose
is it ? TheLicen.se Inspector.
;$7-o'^. Have you rea.son to believe that there are illicit jilaces selling now ? ! <lo
not know of any.
•'$72oy. Have you reason to believe that men holding licenses sell after- hours and on
Sunday ? We have, by occasionally seeing men drunk on Sunday.
.'i7;i*)0. Do you know whether the licensees have been prf)secuted fur selling after
lir(iliil)ited hours f Yes, some : I do not know much about them however.
•■>7l.M!l. How long an e.\']ierience did you have of tiie old system before tiie licensi'
law came into force? One and a half years.
:{7-Gl'. Did you regard tliat as a system of proiiil)ition or iiermi.ssion .' <)fpi'rmis-
^i<iii.
.'<7l.'li.S. Are tliere a number of places licensed to sell iiiplid refreshineiit \ - ^'es ; thi'
l.iw licenses them to sell liipiid refreshment.
.'i7l.'<)4. Ha\e you rea.son to believe tiiey sell anything else I — They were not licensed
lo do so.
37l.'l)0. Were you in the jiolice before you came here.' — Y'es, at Winnipeg, for a
imiiiber of years.
liij Jiidiji' MclhiHiihl :
.■{7l!()('). Was not the .system you found in force when you came here lalled prolii-
I lit ion I Yes.
•'i7'_'t)7. Were there a number of those places of wliich you ha\c spoken, and do
VMii tiiink there was a large sale tliere .' -^'es. I do not tliink they refused li(|Uor to
aiiy one who had money.
.'i7-()S. Taking tlie community as a whole, do you think there are a great many
I pie who take intoxicating liiiuors / - Not more than in any <ither part of the country.
•'i7l!()y. Are there a largi' number who take licpior in nioderat ion ,' — Yes.
.■57'J70. Do you think Calgary compares favourably with other places? — -Y^es.
•■i7'J71. That is your opinion botli as a police olUcer and as a citizen I — \''e8.
li'l Rev. Dr. MrL'od:
'M'27'2. I think you said there was quite free sale prior to license. Do you think
ihi're was any attempt made to interfere with the men who were selling? — I do not
III iiil; so.
'1727.i. Whose duty was it to interfere? — The duty of the Mounted Police.
•'(7274. Do yuu think they connived at violations of thf law ? — I could not .say thiit
tliey did.
371
21--24.V**
!! 'i
in
it
II'
i
Li(iuor Tmrtic — Xortli-west Territciies.
.■)7l.'7'>. riic jit'dpli- went on scllini,' .' Yes.
'M'2~*\. And tlic jHiliiT wtTf riglit in Calgary at tin- time / -Yes.
A'y ./ndi/i' MfDtiiiiiltJ :
'M'2~'. ^'t)U lit'iinl Mr. Dnwliiig's statement, 1 supiiose .' Yes.
•"57-7^. I le sjMike of liis t'ofee liavintj niatle stroll".; ert'urts to suppress tlie sale? — T
have iieanl tiiat tliey iliil so, hut it was ln'fore my time liere.
•■>7-7!l. Tlien you have reason to su|)pi)se that his statement was aeeurate .' Yes.
• mI-'SO. You have no reason to tiiiiik to the contrary .' No.
■■ >:■ -■ i •
.lAMlvS WALK HI!, of Calwirv, lumh
U ilul\
jer luereliant. on l)eini; duly sworn, depostil
as follows ;
if
"II:
'if
i
w
mL'SI. 1 )o you hold any otUeial position '. I am Chairman of the F^ieeiise Comii
sioners.
;57l.'Sl'. How loiij,' liave you resided here.' Since 188U, twelve years.
.■^728.'?. |)id you come liere from one of the other provinces? I came here fr
ll.uiiilton. Went worth County.
.■{7l'S|. T1
lere was a license law m
force there. 1 lielieve? — 1 came to tl
lis count i\
as a mounted jioliceiuau, in lS7l.'.
.■>7"_'S"), Mow loiiij; were you
in the force .'- -About two veai
.■<7"_'f<<i. huriiiu the time y(»u lived in the Teri'itories, at wiiat places liavi
li\ed ? I have lieen at ISattleford and in tiie Prince Albert district.
'l!S7. Was it your tluty to enforce the ])roliil)itory 1;
iw
;!7l'8S. Was the force \ iixilant in endeaxoiiriiii; to enforce the law .' -At that ti
tl
lev were.
lllM'
.'i7'JS'.t. What was the principal trouble ill eiiforcinjr the law there.' ( )ur d
were with the Indians.
37L".tU. I )o you mean in keepinu; lii|Uor away from th<!m .'— There were no deali
in the northern country, except the Ihulson JJay Compiiiiy.
•'I72',ll. They did not soli to the Indians, I suppose / Yes, to anybody.
'■\~'l\yi. l)id you .see any smiin<;liiiir .' — Not much.
.'17-'.';<. How did litpior come in then ' iiy permit.
:'>7l.".'l. We have been told that in .some places, under the old system, when a in.
1 call his friends together, and they would keP]i <
it. I
eriiiit. ne wou[(
got li(|Uor HI hv pe
drinking until ihey had drank all tile liipuir ' I haxeseen cases of that kind
north.
M-lw:-. Do v.
Col(
I I
III know anything of the use of siicli articles as pai
i-kill.
iiKl can ii
ia\ »■ not seen i
he was a prohibitionist.
inch of that, but 1 saw one m.in taking pain-killer : in t.ii i
.■57'J'.lti. Was the .sale of those compounds stopped eventually .' ^'
were sold forthat puriiose. and the Indians got hold of them. .V mi.xtureof paiii-1'
•laiiiaica ginger was compounded and sold. It was another name for whisky.
es, lie<'ause \\\v\
-klllcr.-iiH
•'17l".'7. Then it was wliiskv made into decoi'tions so as to be able to sell it accon
to law
.'!"•_".•;*'. It was brought in legtdly in bottles the same as pain-killer .' Yes.
ll'.l. What class of ])eople would obtain it .' — (ieiierally traders, who would <v\\
to the Indiiiiis during treaty iiaymeiit.-
ItltO. They were what you would call pedlai
;7.iUl. I>id thev sell other i^oods
:es. tea, sugar and 'nuceries, wliu
htl
ley uiiiili
•II to the Indians also at the treaty payments.
TiioM.^s Hnoi.isii
372
n
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ilT-'iOl'. Tluit inctliotl iiiul tile permit system eoiistituted tli" t \vn iiietliuils 1(\ wliieli
liijuor was brouiilit in .' — Yes.
.■{7.'iO-'>. I>iil villi ever liave neeasiuii to seareli liuuses in your' distiiet .' I think unee
cii' twiee |)nilial>iy.
;}7.'>04. hid yiMi ever lia\(' nceasion to search phiees and liotise.-- .' I lia\r searelied
laits.
.'iT.'U)."). Was tlieiv niuoli settlement in the eountry in tho>e days ; N'o.
■"i7-'lOt). Were the Indians tlie only set tiers tliere then .' Nearly.
:i7.'507. Then we understand you left the t'oi'ee in KSS() .' ^'es.
.■i7.'!0!S. Have yoi; had any exjierienee in the Maeleod disti-ict .' No.
•'>7.'?00. Then you sottleil down in C'ali;ary .' "^'es.
.■<7.nO. I)id the force endeavour to carry out the law accordini,' to your ol)ser\alion
here .' - I'ntil the last three or four years.
•"i7'Ul. AN'e have e\idence from the Mayor that there was a I'ei'tain amount of salt>
i;oini; on when you came to the town .' ^'es.
• >7.ilL'. Since 1st May this |>art of the country has lieen inidei- a license law. I lie-
licve .' Yes.
• >7."51-'i. Takiui; the state of thini^s liefore and after the license law in Calvary, which
do yni think is |neferal)le .' I should say that liciMise was ]iicferalile to the last year or
luo of the prohihitory system.
■')7.'ill. You are Chairman of the IJoard of Licenst> Connuissioners .' N'es.
•"•7-')l."). Api)ointed by %Nhat authoi-jty .' ()f the North-west Council.
■')7"il(). How lariie a district lia\(' you under your charge ,' Weha\c\\liat is called
the Cid,i;ary district.
•■>7-')17. \\'hat does it take in .' 'I'he country aor'th of here for a distance of fid miles
III llii:h Hiver, and west as far as Uaidl', and east as far as (ileichen, that is the Calvary
ilcctoral district.
;)7-'US. How many licensed phu-es are tlicK in the district.' T cotdd not tell you
nil' hand, hut 1 e.xpect the Inspector will he able to tell you.
•■!7.'>l!l. Can you tell liow many thei'c are in the town of Calvary ; I third< live or
-ix hotels, two restaurants and three wholesale houses.
■>7.'!l.'0. What arc your duties as CMiairman of the Hoard '. Are your dut ies conl'nied
io till' town .' Yes.
•'?7'!'_M. Have you considered the ipiestion of ijiantini; compensation to iirewcrs and
lii^lilleis in ca.se of the passage of a u'eneral ]irohil)ilipry l;nv, which would he the mean>
otclosim; uji their business.' -T have not.
By h'er. Dr. McLeod:
•"'7.'>l''J. What are the conditions under which licenses are L;ranted for the sale ot
li'liior f There are three difVerenI systems. There is the system of hotel licenses for tow ns,
.Hid another system for I'etail licensed places foi' country districts, there is a license for
restaurants and a wholesale license. So there are really four dift'erent kinds,
"i7.'$l'.'i. Take the hotel licenses in Calvary ; at what hours nmst they close at niuht ?
1 could not tell you that.
■ )7.>"J4. Tlu>y ha^•e to make application for licensi's f Ye^. The Chief lie-j tor is
ill Ivcyiiia. and the [lapers are sent to him. Those |papers are sidniiitted to the Coinmis-
■>iiiliers, who pass upon them and decide whether the applicant shoidd be planted or le-
t'used a license.
• >7;^_'r). Ffas the applicant to obtain a certain number of siL;iial ures .' ^'l-•. In out
"t llie nearest 20 householders.
• !7.'L'(i. Take Calitary, were any ajiplications for licenses refused ' No.
•i7.'i"J7. |)iil you find that all who a]i|)lied had complied with the conditions I "^'es.
•■57."{'JS. What is the cost of a license '. .^I'Dd for each license.
• i7.'iL".). I )() you know whether the wholesale dealers in Calvary have also retail
iiielises f No, they have not.
.'i7.'i;U*. You think the prohibition system was fairly cirried out until within the
last t W(i or tiiree yeiirs. Why was it then less etliciently carried out .' The Mounted
I'nlice did not seem to lia\e the same enei'uy in carryinL,' out the lav\ as previously.
373
l!M!i
!
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
m
i .
;{7.i.'il. Wci'c permits issued liore iiKlisi't'iiniiiutcly .' 1 tiiiiik tliu t'uur |n'i' oMit liucr
system liacl a ;;<(()<1 de.-il to (In with iimiv liipior ' eiiij; usctl. Tlie law was almost a dead
letter after that system was iiitrodiu-ed.
'M'^''\'2. 1)1(1 you observe that iiiidei' the t'.)ur ]iei' ceiil l)eei- ])laii ahno'-t every kind
of lifjiioi- was introduced .' Yes.
;i7;{3;}. Do you think a license system would. he j)referal)le to th(^ condition of
things prevailinj; prior to those two oi- three years, *ay to the condition of tliin;;s pre-
vailin;; from \H7\) to ISSi! '. 'Fhere was not as nuich liipior used then as now.
'M'M\. l)oyou think there is mure drinkin;jin the C'al;;ary district than |ire\iously ?
— I think there is more amnni; ;i cei'tain class. There are more jieople \\ ho are able to
ailbrd li(juor now, and theiH! are a great many who buy it whole.saie.
:57.'5.'5r). As between license and prohibition, which system do you consider prefer-
able I — ^ly own conviction is that if jn'ohibition could be stuictly carried out, it would
l»e a j;ood thing.
.'iT-'l.'il). Fi'om youi' experience with the Mounted Police, do you think a vigilant
and faithful force would efl'ectually carry out prohibition? — It was diH'ei-ent when 1 wa.s
with the force, because there were not so many j)(^o[)le hei-e then. It would be very e.\-
pensive to stop illicit sale at the present time.
.'(7l5-'i7. Speaking of a prohibitoi'y law foi' the whole country, a law to jirohibit the
manufactiu'c, im{)ortation and sale of intoxicating li(iuors for be\'ei'age ]>ur])osos, do you
think it would lie possible to enfoi-ce such a law ,' — We have a long boundary line and
sea coast, and it would be impossible.
.■57.'i.'?S. There was a good deal of smuggling, we understand ? — i nere was a good
deal of smug^lin;; across tht,' frontier.
FKANK DICK, of Calgary, license inspector, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows;
JJi/ Jn(fi/i' Mi'Doiiii/i/ :
'M'-Wd. Do you carry on any business now .' I was formei'ly in the lumber business.
.")7.'U0. Flow long ha\(' you resided here? -About thret> years.
•'{7.'541. Did you come fi-om one of the other j)rovinces ,' I'rcjm th(> County of Vic
toria. Ontario. 1 had been nearly 10 or 11 years in Manitoba before that.
'M'M-. When you came here the license system was in force ?- \'es.
.■i7.'i4."i. Were you the lirst Inspectoi' ajipointed for this district after the new law
came into force? Yes.
•57.'UI. Taking the old system iis yi>u know it and the new system, which is pi'efev
able? -The new system.
.'?7-54."). Have you endeavoured iionestly and faithfully to carry out the pi'o\ isions
of the lieenst? law / — Y'^es.
•')7.'iK). From your experience, can you suggest any iniju'oxcments in tlie law or
amendments that would be impi'o\ements .' Yes. Foi' instance: the suggestion by
.Mayor Lucas to compel bar-rooms to be on a front sti'eet and open to view. It migiit
have the eH'ect, iiowe\er. of causing jiarties to sell in out-ot-the-way places.
•'i7.'i47. lUit you think that would be a good plan? — Yes.
.'i7.'54S. When you I'ame hei'e was the sale of liipior open ?- No. I came here in
the s).ring of 18r^4."
•'{7.'Uil. Was liquor then sold .'- "^'es.
;)7."}oU. In many places.' -1 think there were more places in 18(S4 than there are to-day.
.■i7."?51. ^Vhat kind of lii|uor was sold ?--I cannot toll. I should call it bad, even
the best of it.
■'!7.'?.")'2. What were the prices diarged ?---")0 cents a di'ink.
.■i7.'5").'5. What is the jirice now ? Two drink.s for a (piartei'.
.Iamks Walki;
374
I H
Wr^
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iiivisions
;t7.'i-")l. At any tiiiio lit-fort- tlic license system eanie into t'uive, did the sale Itecunie
open? Yes, about two years aj^o.
^^''^'i'^. Has tlio nuinher i>i licensed places increased since tlie license system came
into force? I think there has heen an inci'ease in number.
'M'^^At. Are you favourable to pi'oiijiiiiion .' -Yes.
:\~'.\')~. On piMncii)le / -\'es.
It"."^"!''^. Koyou think a pi'ohii)itory law could be enforced ? I think so, if proper
methods were adojiled.
.S7.'{')9. (,'an you su;;j;est any methods. Do you think the steps taken by the
Mounted Police were ifiKKl.' — \o. The fact is that aniaii who only receives 81") a month
and his clothin;j; is not suitable for the business, when he can make i^'M) or i^lO a month
by taking tips.
•">73GO. l)o yt)u charge that this has Ijeen done by niembei's of (he Northwest
Mounted Polici- I — >rembers of the force liave told that to me.
.'iT.'ilil. From whom would they take tips.' — Fi'om tht^ li(|Uoi' men.
•?7H(iL'. It is oidy fair to the i)olice to state that the wei;;lit of testimony everywhere
has been that membci's of the force have faithfully performe(l theii' duties and endeavoured
to carry out the law ? — Recently, at all events, I recollect one jwlicemen tellinff me fif it.
.'17;5(i;5. About takin;,' tips .' Y'"es.
;{7;?t)4. You wt)uld retjuire otticeis who would not be subject to such teniptations ?
- Well paid otlicers.
;i7.'5ti-"). In case of the enactment of a general pi'ohibitorv law, would you favour the
payment of compensation to brewers ami distillers for loss of plant and machinery? Yes.
.'?7.'5Gt). Suppose' you had to choose between a j>rohibitory law, well enforced, and a
license law, which would you consider preferal)le .' — A lii'ense law.
By R<v. Dr. McUod :
■i73()7. Did you I'egard the so-called prohibitory law as prohibition or permission?
— -It was permission.
•'!7368. AVhat are your duties as Inspector? — In the fir.st place I have to ins[)ect
a|)plicants' premises and report to the License Conunissioners.
.'{7-"5 )9. What do you have to iincl on the pi-emises of any one applying,' for a license 1
if the application is for a hotel license in the town, the a[)plicant is rc(piir-e<l to have
10 l)ed-rooms above tliose re<pured for his own use, a kitchen, a dining-room and the
necessai'V ajjpliances. In a small town, like Anthracite or Banlf, seven roinns are
required. In a country place, with a population of only three or four huntlred, foui' bed-
nioins ai'e re(|uired.
'■\~'.M0. Is there any recptirement as to the [)art of the house in which the bar must
be situated ? — No.
•{7371. So vou do not issue anvthinu like shop licenses, where liipior f>nlv is sold ?
-No.
;>7."}7-. Have you reason to believe that then' is illicit sale in Calvary or in your
district ? — I do not think there is any in t'algar}', but I have heai-d of cases outside in
ilie country.
;i7.'$7.3. Are you supposed to visit all the plac;'s in your district j)a;'ticidarly '! — I
only go wlien T lieai' anything or get an information in regard to dilVerent matters.
•i7.'{74. It is a large field, and f suppose you could not go over it very often ? —It
is a large tield.
3737'). Is it the duty of the police to keep you informed as to any infi'actions of
the law ? — I cannot say that it is their duty to do .so.
.'i737t). If a policeman should see an infraction of the law. would it not be his duty
to inform you ?- Thi' police are authorized to enforce the law in the Ordinance.
•i7."!77. Are you not the prosecutor? — I am suppo.sed to be so.
•'i.j;}7S. You lay the charges, I suppose ? — Yes, not but that the police could lay the
charges themselves.
•■i7.'{71). There is nothing to prevent them doing .so ? — No.
•17380. Are the police constables in addition to town police ?— Yes, all mounted
I ml ice are constables.
375
•' I
1
rrr
i|i
mt
Liquor Trattic — Xoi'tli-wesf Territories.
.■{7.'{lSl. Where tliey are /--Yes, tliroujilimit the Nortli-wost Tim rilin'ics.
'■\T,\f<2. Do you know jinythinj,' fiht)ut the condition of thin;,'s prior to the license
system, when u iiuinher of |ico|)le were hcensed to tseli ii<|Uor for refreshment — I suppose
tiijit was a cuuple of yeai-> ai,'o ! Yes. I was iii town at that time.
.■i7.'{f<'?. I)i(i vou liold anv (itlicial position then .' N<>, I had no otheial knowledge
of it. ■ ■
l'il)\VAUI> IK^hDl'iH, of C'alyary, on heing duly sworn, deposed as follows ; —
Jii/ Jiid(/e McDonohl :
:!7.">!^ 1. What is youi' husiness or oecupatioii ? -T am ictired from l)Usinoss.
:')7;iS-"). Mow long iiave you resided here.' -.Vltout six yeai's.
;i7.i'*^l'>. Did you come iiei'e from one <if the other provinces .' -1 was foi'meriy in
Toronto. i)ut a good part of the time I ha\i- litfd in Kngland.
.'171587. Are you an Engiishmaia ? No, a Canadian.
;{7.'>S8. Have you known this country under tiie [)ermit system or as it was called,
the prohii)ition >y.stem '.- -^'es.
.■$7''i''^'.*. And also the license system, since 1st May last .' Yes.
.■17.'5'.I(J. Which lui\e you found preferahle .' -1 am decidedly in favour of a license
.system.
•■57."i!n. Have you emigrants coming here from Kngland ,' A'es, to a certain e.xtent.
.■i7-'i'.'-. Do you tind the jieojile coming here a soi)er and law-ahiding class ? That
is acc(jrdiiig to my ohsiM'vation. I do not remember ha\ing seen any of them ili'unk.
.■i7;l'.l.">. .\i'e they people many of whom take intoxicating drink in moderation .'
• — I am not in a p<jsition to kn )W much about them. They are generally down at
the emigrant shed, and as a rule they oidy stay a day or two.
.■?7."1!' t. Taking tiie country so far as you know it, is there any large class of the
jHipulation who make u.'-e of intoxicating iie\erages in modi'iation '. I think the gri'at
niajoi'ity of the people use lii|Uoi' in modei-ation.
;i7-"V.t."). I'rom your obser\ation, is there nnich drunkenness in this coinitry, or much
in comparison with other connnunities .' I think Calgary comi)ares faviaii'ably with
almost any <ither place I have ever been in. There are certain men who get undtM' the
intluence of li(juor once in a while, for two or three days at a time.
.'I7.'l'.'t(. Do you ri'fcr to soini' special time, such as a holiday.' That is withtliein
a holiday.
•■l7-'i07. 'i'aking the lesidents, do you tind them a law-abiding and ordei'ly coin
u\uiuty ; There nescr was a more law-abiding connnunity to my knowledge than that
of Calgary.
.'i7;i'.)8. Did you notice that there %\ as nuich s.ile of strong beverages going on
before the license law come into ett'ect ? A good deal.
.■{7!?itl). In many places / - In a good many more than now.
•'(7 lUO. Have you heard anything as to the ipiality of the ii(|uoi', whether it wa-
good or bad ? There were go'xl and bad li(|Uors. In regard to my own experienci". I
can say that I took t wo drinks in the place and they jiretty nearly did me up, and I
only took those two that day.
•S7101. Were comi>oun<ls sold ,' - \'es : there was an inducement to make coiii-
M7 102. Why .' liecause there \\as n
loney in it for the conipoundei-s
;t7 lU."!. We ha\e been toM that the price of drinks was high in those days?- -Yes
so high that at the time of the election, I was offered ^80 for two gallons.
n,j AVr. J)r. .UrLnd:
:MM\. Did you take it .' No, T wanted it.
FiiA.MC Dick.
376
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
llij Jiiihjr McUoiialil :
.ITIO"). Fin your I i\v II use? — Yfs.
.'1710(1. Was tlific iiiiiL'li >iinii'^'i;liiiL; iriiin;.' on at that tiiiii'? I ciiiiiiiil spc-ik tVnm
my nwn i'.\|i('riciK'f. lnit if I cdii liclirvi' «liiit nmis llic (•oiiiiiHiii talk lien-, tlii'ic was a
Lrmxl deal of it.
.'(7407. We lia\ t' had fvidi'iicc nf the l)i'iiii.'iMu; ill nt' li(|uipr foiu'calcd in liaricls nf
siiifar and pai'kanfs of ditTiTcnt iiiiTi'liaiidiM'. |)(iyiiu know anytliini; of llial ,' I liaxc
lii'ard of it licinii done, lint I know notliini; alunit it personally.
."17 lOS. ^'nll lia\t' not seen packaijcs (ipcnrd a'ld lii|noi- dftirtfd '. No.
:i7 too. Ilaxi* you ever fimsidfi'i'd the i|uestioii of |iniiiil)itioii as a (Hicstinn uf
liiinciplf .' — I iiavt' iit'Vcr gout' \cry di-cfily into it.
.'17110. Aff you fa\uui'al>lc to proliihition as a iiriiiciplf '. No.
.'17111. I >o you think it wron^ in priiiciplf .' ^'('s. 1 think it wioiin to force any
man a^^ainst his own will.
•''>7I1:.'. Supposing such a law w( re p.issed, do you think it could lie practically
< iifoiced / -I doulit it. The induceineiits are too frreal for liolii the iiianufact lire and
'-imii.'iflinu: of lii|uo|- and you will always liml people who will have liijuor for sale.
;i7ll.'>. Ill cas(> such a law were pa-iscd, would you think it riicht that lireweis ami
ili>tille''s should recoise reiniiiieratioii for their los'^ of plant and iiiachiiiery .'— Certainly.
//// A'"-. />'■. M<-I.''<»l :
•">7ni. Why do you think license is |)referalile to pmhiliit ion ! — I'lom my own
'p|)>cr\ation I ha\'e seen less drunkenness since the license law came into force than there
uas iiefiire.
;i7H."). l>o you think there has lieeii less drinkiiiL,' since.' I think there has lieeii
liss drunkenn"ss. 'IMie only \mi\ I can accuunt for it is that a man can u'ct ai^ooddrink
t'i lii|Uor for less than ."lO cents, which he had to pay liefore.
."i7ll(i. On that Jiccount there is less drunkenness '. I think there is less drunken
IK'S.-,, 'riiere are, howe\cr, other men who have <(iveii e\idencc on tliat point who are
lictler authorities, iiecausc they live in town, and I li\e one mile out of town and am
^I'lddiii in at ni<;ht.
">7117. ^'ou ha\e spoken of C'alijary as a law -aliidinii ]ilace. Was it a law aliidin.i^;
place liefore 1st .May last .' Yes. i suppose, iiowcNcr, that then; were many infractions
of the law in rejiard to the liipior traliic.
•"'7H.'^. We have lieeii told that there vere more places selling then than there are
ii'iw . You have said you would not think that was an indication of law oliscrx anco ! -No ;
liiit since you ask me a (Hiestioii, I must try to rememlierin reuaid toout raj^es, disorderly
iMiiiJuct and drunkenness.
;i7n'.l. .So ther<; was a u'ood (leal of tiiat under the old |ieriiiit system .' There was
h'li ,1 i_'reat deal. < )f course there were cases, as there are in any community.
• !7 I'-U. Do you attriiiute them in any (ic<,'ree to the drinkiiiy; that went on then.' I
iiiuihiite them to the ipiality of the liijiinr they drank.
• ">7t"_'l. leather than to the ipiantity .' -Yes.
■ i7rj"_'. l)id that old system strike you as prohiliiti\c at all '. Not ;it all, liccause
:iii\ man hv sendini; money down to I{eM;ina could ijel liiptor.
•"i7ll.'.'>. ."^o it really was not piohiliit ivc .' No.
'■u\'l\. You have said yuu arc o|ipused to prohiliition on piini'i|)le. I )o you oliject
to ilie principle of prohiliition as applied to the community .' I object to forcint;- pei)|ile
ill c.ises of that sort, in rcj,'ard to matters on which they should e.xeicisc iheiiown judu
iiii'iii.
'>7ll.'."). JJo you think it is well in Cali;ary in issuini; permits to make it aconditioii
'ii.ii the licensees shut u|) their places at 10 or 1 I o'clock at iiij;lit ! T think they should
I"- ■iljiiwed to keep open until the train arrived, which is at a \ery had hour just now I
iiiay remark. If they closed at \'l o'clock there would lie no harm done, and they would
II'. I tiiid fault with th.at.
• i7l"_'<i. ( Ml what Ljroiind <lo you justify the prohiliition of sale from 1 1! midni<rht
iiiitii <i in the iiiorniiijLr •' — * >n the <frouiid that it is the rule in all communities to ha\i'
i' cciiain hour to close.
377
l|i
ii!'
lii
! ill
' , i
mm
Liquor Tiatlic — Xortli-west Teirit( tries.
.'i7 1-7. Is iiiit tliat III! iiitfrfficiu'f witli a iiiiiirs liberty ; It would Ih' an iiMliii'(;-
ment fur yuuiifi fellows to stay iip all iii;(iit it' thf |iul»lit' lioiines were not closed.
■'i74L'IS. ISecause it would Ix- an indueenient to youiii,' follows to stay up all iii<;lil
di'iiikiiij;, you tliiiik it ri!,'lit to |ii'ohiliit licensees sellin;; at'tei' a eertain lioui' .' --^'es,
after niidniiflif .
.'5742!). If it could lie made to appeal- (I do not say wlietliei' it could or not) tlial
the keopinj; (jpen fi'i)ni <> a.m. to 12 p.m. was itisti-unu>ntal in keepinjj a lai'gn number of
men di'inkinj.' durin.i,' the day, wouii you think those houi's injuiious ? I do not think
so. If I wanted li(|uor I would j^et it. whatever the cost.
374'$0. Owinj,' to the persersity of human natui'e, T suppose.' Yes.
M7l-n. When a man thinks a thin;; is pi'ohihited it makes him want to have it, anil
lie is hound to endeavouf to;,'ot it ,' -No, liut that the man should he left a certain amount
of disci-etion, when a man know.s how to use it and not abuse it. I am speakin;,' tor myself.
I have lived here aljout three years as a citizen, and no one evei- saw me the worse for
liijuor, except the day I took the two drinks.
'MA'.V2. So you are able to be a law to yourself in the matter ? — ^Yes.
;574;i.'{. Do you think every man is able to be a law to himself ?- -Y'e.s.
.■^7434. Would you lock uji habitual drunkai'ds? — A man who cannot take liipiur
in moderation without making; a beast of himself should be out of the world.
.■}74.'{ri. ,So the trade shoidd ;,'o on until tiie end, from ;;eneration to ^jeneration ! -
Y'es, peoples will have it, and they will get <|uii-ker t' the end if they take decocted stufl':
it i.s, of course, only hastenini; tlie end.
.■{74.'5<'). Do you think there are a large number of people of that kind, taking youi
t)bservation here and elsewhere? — Not a great number.
374."<7. Of men who drink at all. some are like yourself, men who can drink a lot
at €a time and keep themselves under cfnitrol. liut in regard to the men who drink
more or less, have you ever observed whether any proportion at any time drink to
excess
—Yes,
occasionallv.
374.'i8. Is it a large ])ercentage ? -I may see a man who is a moderate drinker
take a little too much once or twice in a year, but as a general thing I think there are
ten moderate drinkers to one exi-essive drinker.
.'i7 b'ilt. Have you observ€>d whether there is a tendency on the part of those wlm
drink moderately, to drink excessively as years go on ? — I do not think .so : I do not tiiink
it has ever struck me in that light.
37440. You think, howevei-. prohibition of the trade entirely would be an inti'i
ference with individual liberty? — Yes, T do.
.■57441. There are people, so it is declared, who regard the trade as a constant temp
tation to their boys and the weak peojile of the conunuinty. Is it not an interference
with their personal rights to have a trade thrust upon them against their will? — I do nut
(piite understiind youi- ([uestion.
.'i744L'. I understand you to say that men who drink should not have that right
interfered with. There are other jieople, however, who say the drink trade is a men.i. i-
to all the young peoi)le of the community and should be abolished. Have they no riglit-
tliat should be considered ? — I think it is only right that all people .selling should he
]irohil)ited from selling to minors, if that is what you mean.
.'174 13. l)o you know whether the li<-ensees observe that feature of the law, oi' d^
they sell to whoever comes along.'- I have never seen a minor at a Vjar ; I do not know 1
ever saw one instance of it.
37444. Have you observed, as a man of leisure, that the drink trade, as establislicd
and carried <in, has an injurious eti'ect on the people of the connnunity at large and on
the business interests of the connnunity? — Do you mean before the licensesystem cam'
into force ?
.'5744.5. l5oth before and now? — 1 think that before license there weie individuals
who profited very much by the trade. One man of whom I know went into the business
without a cent, and after four years in it he left the Viusiness with something like
?20,000 pvofit.
3744(). Was thfit a g(M)d thing for the connnunity? — I sliould say it was a very had
thing.
EnWAUD HOODKH.
lilt temp
"rfi'lVlirc
I do Mill
idiviiUial-
Ijiisino^^
hint' liki
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■(7117. I?iiil ill what way.' lit' t;<>t so nuii-h n( tin- (•iiiiiinuiiity's inidu-y ,' --Yfs. Tht;
iii|Uiir he sold did not all citiii)' in iiiidfi' |ii'i'iiiit.
•■?7 US. Mid tilt' |)c()[)h' i,'ct aiiytliiiii; tor thrir nioiifv .' They not \"'iy poor \alu(\
■'171 ('.•. Suppose a man is hctMiscd to sell, ilocs lie nut yo in to sell tor u pnilit f
Ctitaiiily.
.'i74'>0. \\'li('tht'r he iiiakcs .Sl'(),((0O in four years, or it' it lai<es him III years
to do it, is it a ;,'o(kI thini; for the enimnunity ora had thiii<,' .' If a man sold i.'ood liipior
and sold it iiiuler a lei,'alize(l system I should say it was a fair husiiie.ss. As it is, | do
mil think the peojile always ;;ive value for the airiount received.
.'17 t-")!. Is this your meaning,' : That the peojile who hiiy lii|Uor when the sale is not
iiieiised do not j^et value for their money, hut th(> people who huy lii|Uor when the trade
is lireiistHi f,'et value for their money ? -h'rom all the knowled;;e I pos.soss liipior is not
worth .")(> cent* a ulass : if it comes to that it is not worth ll!.', cents, as is charjjed now,
Ijiit there is a j,'ood deal between \\ll and ."id cents.
'Ml^i'2. 'i'hen the dealer receives It.'ss pr.itit now than liedid hefore? Yes.
Ill/ Jndye McDotKihl :
;$74");{. Takinj; the ca.se of a man making !!?-0,000 in "JU years under the license
law : he makes it hocause the people under the le^;alized trade as carried on hy him huy
that <|uaiitity of liquor from him ? — Yes.
.■17t.'")4. The (|uestion is sometiines asked whethei- it would not he hetterif the people
put their money into dry fjoods and so on. |)o you think some option should he allowed
ilic jicople as to what tliey shall do with their own money, so long as they use it with
iliscretion ,' — Yes, 1 tiiiiik the people ha\e a right to do what tliey wish with their tiwii
money.
;1745."). Taking the (piestion, then, of public sentiment, you have expressed yourself
ill favour of licen.sed hou.ses keeping open during certain hours? — Y'es.
■'174.'')<). Do you think that in this community public sentiment is almost unanim-
ously ill fa\()ur of closing ;it particular hours ;in(l on Sunday? — I have never gone into
the matter since I have been here.
;174.")7. Do you not find that the great wfMglit of public sentiment favours that view?
Yes.
.'i74">i^. Do you find that the same seiitir.ii'iit exists in regard to closing up
.iltugcther ?— No.
U74.")'J. J)o you not think that where you find public sentiment almost uniformly in
favor of closing on Sunday and after specified hours, it is easier to enforce such a law than
"here there is diversity of opinion / — Yes.
• i74t')0. Do you know whether there were any compounders who did nothing else
iiut coinpiaind litjUor .'-[ cannot speak from experience, but everybody who has been
hi'ic for any length of time knows that there lia\e been men here who did nothing else.
.'i74til. Do you know any such? — I am not going to run the risk of getting my.self
into a libel suit, .so [ will not say.
• ">74()i'. You know as a fact that such things did take phice ? — Y'es.
■■!74f).'l. J)i(l you refer to the fact that men would send down to IJegina and get a
p'Tiiiit ] -They wi're rarely refused, except men who were found selling.
• >74l)4. Ha\e you any knowledge of the systtnn pursued in Hegiiia in regard to
.ranting permits? — I never was i'efus(Hl one ; I wrote and got all 1 wanted.
.">74ti."). Were you well known? — 1 was not known when I first wrote.
• 174<'i(i. Was your aj)plication submitted to other persons who did know you? — T
-'■lit to (UiveriK^r Koyal.
•'174i!7. We have been tokl in liegiiui that the custom was to have legislators
i\iiiniiie tho.se applications, and on the strength of their recommendations permits were
issued ? -I cannot speak as to that, because 1 simply wrote and asked for a permit
iiidiciiting .so much linuor. Invariably a permit was sent.
■'174<)S. And inclosing a certain amount of money for tin? fee, I suppose?- — Y'es.
• '74(19. Y'ou did not .send money as au inducement? — No.
•17470. TJiere was no fee paid for ale, 1 suppose?—! could not say.
379
i' I
ir i
Hi
III
Li(|iiui' 'I'liitlic — Xoitli-wi'st 'r('iTitori.)s.
.'17171. NN'lii'ii «ii> it I hat yiiii wcri- <itVi'if(| i
wii ''iiiiiiris lit
i lii|iiui' |..r .><S(l ^ It
wiw
iiijiiD'iliiitcIv <ift(M' I ciiiiit' here; it wii.s iit rlcction iiint> atiil tli<' town Iwid run ilrv.
■'t" 17-'. TluTf was no time f<» send to Hcj^iiui I sii|)|i(isf t I
.■1717;*. Was tlif i'ail\\ay •iiiininj,' then ,' Yes.
■ 17171. It llMs Imm'Ii MlifLtf'stfd thai iiiii' iiMMiii t'ul' the ilirn
■asf ill tffantiii;; |pcriiiits
was that llic fouiilry was IIimkIimI witii ■-miii.'^'li'd hniiur ,' I siip]iosi- it
.'1717."'. Ami it was cuiisidi'ii'd lictlfi' to liritij; lii|iicir in tVoui our o\n u counti'V in
tlu' I'cyuiar was. i lo you know anytiiin^ in i't'j,'ai'd to that .' F caniioi s|ical< |)frscmaliy.
l)Ut I am satislii'd in my own nniid tlial nin«- <{allons wit*' sniu;,'^diHl at one tiini'.
.■!7l7'i. Was tiicrc sinut;;;lin;.' when pcfniits wcit nioic t'lcidy issui-d ' ^'i-s.
A'// A'"-. Dr. .\f<ho-l:
.17177. I)i<l sniuji;{lin){ di'i'ica.sc at'lcr tiic pci'mits wcit incrca.sed ' ' ..tncy so.
.■17I7>'. You assuuii' it did, luit you do not know .' I do not k-
.■5717!'. You think liiat at'ter liccn
>lii
sc |it'o|ili' |iuii'iias('(
iV at tliosc licf^nsci
jilac'fs, wiii'icas |irfvi(pu-
ly tht'V w ell' uonipclicd to puii-hasc at liiii'it piaft's '. t'crtainly.
.'17180. What was the condition ot' tidnjis w ht-n t in' tour per rent plan came inti
t'l III
I do not know what you nwai
•'hI^'I. Was thiTi' aH iimrh lii|Uoi' iisi-d or iimrr or
I think less lii|Uor was
•-niUL'L'Iril III.
.'17 I'*'!.'. I >o you know whi'llirr wnili'r pi'iiiiits to si'li t'liur pi'i' rent liriT, peojiii' sold
almost I'vi'ivtliinif
i think so
.■i7 IS.'i. |)o you know whother tlu- jfiMU'ial sale of spirituous liipiors incrfa.sed after
the four |ier cent permits were issued] --1 could not sjieak as to that.
.'17l>'l. iVIiout what was the usual ipiantity of lii|Uiir asked under a permit? — I
always sent for 10 j,'allons.
inj; almost entirely in favour of the
;i7 l^*."). ^'ou spoke alioul jiulilie seiitinielit
I'
ihiliitioii ill the iicensu law as to certain I
lours tor sal
|)o \ou know what is tli^
|iiil)lie seiitiinent in re<;ard to the general prohiliitioii of the trade? I >o you mean totii
priihihitioii
:{71S(1. \
I fanev if it
'le |)Ut to a Mite it would not carry
.'i7 IS7. That is your opini
.'t7IS,><. r understanil that it ha.s not been tested in the Territories .' Not that I
know of.
.'I7li^!i. Do you think if it were put to the test, and the majority of the people
decided in favour of it, that it would lie ri<;lit to try •mil pmhiliit the tratlic.' — I do imt
tiiiiik it is proper to interfere with tiie rights of anv citizen, or to dictate as to how ,i
man should spend his money.
.'17I!'II. So, inanyease, you are oppis-'d to prohi lition '. ^'es.
Hon. CirAllLHS li. ]{< »rJJv\ l', of Calyary, Justice of the Supreme Court ..t
the Xorth-west Territories, on bein;;- duly sworn, deposed as follows : --
Bj/ Jmlgp McDonnhl :
.'>74',M. How loiiy; have you resided in Caji'ai'v \ — T came herein the siiriny; of ISSii.
1 was at i'.attleford before that time. I came to tht North-west Territories in the fall
of IHS"), and have been in the Territories for nine years.
.■574'.tl'. I belie\e you came from the Province of (Juebei- originally .'— Yes.
.■57l!t."5. From what part of (Quebec? -I was born at Isle \'erte, (.Jreeii Tslaml,
County of Teiniscuuata. 1 was educated in <ilucl)ec, studied my }irofe.ssioii in Jlontreal,
and li\ed at Ayliiier and practised my profession in the County.
:!74!)4. When you came here fust, the permit sy.stein was in tVure in regard to tlic
u." of intoxicating lii|U(U's, T believe? Yes.
Kdwahi) Hoddkh.
380
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'tri'.l'i. S|)fiikiii>; as 11 citi/.i'ii lit' the 'rci'iildiirs, wlijcli liiivc vmi t'uumi |ii't't'i'i'iil)l(>,
llir olil sy.stcni i>v tlie liffiiHi- Hvstfiii. which hits U-t'ii in furoc Mince 1st May? -I cum
linnllv say much alMiiii the new --ystcni. Iiccaiisc it has nniy hccn in t'oi'cc it >h(iif time ;
Itiit so tar as ('al;.'aiy is cunceined, I think it works icih'ialily well. Ut' couise the 1,,^'
v\ants a htth' aini'iiihiient, it conlil hai'<l|\ hecoine pei't'ect at once.
.'iTI'.M'i. Al'e tliel'c anienihnents w hich su;;;;esi theinsehi's lo you thus tar.' No!
any piu'ticular ainen(hneiit.s, l)ecaiise I have not fead the Ai'; vei-y cai'et'nliy yet. I have
hail no occasion to read it nci'V i-aiet'ullv. Iwcause only oiie case was hiou;;ht lict'ore me,
which was in reuanl to the importation of MijUor, and that is o>:; |ioint which I have
stifdied.
;17I'.'7. W'f understand tlial at the hist session ot'tlic Leyishiture some auiendmenls
were j)ro|»ose(l, hut as tlit* session was hurried lliere was no o|i|iortunity to pass lliem '■
I saw tliat in the newspapers.
;I7 I'.''"*. |)o you know wliat was the tenor of tlie amendments .' I cannot now tell
from memory what they were.
.■I7l'.l'.t. From your experience of the permit .system, was there uuu'h liijUor in the
Territories for consumption '/ When I was livinj; at Hattleford 1 did not think there
was a lar;;e ijuantity of li(|Uor imported into the Territories, I suppose there was a
uood reason for tliat, hecause that jiart of tlie country was far away from all railway
I'omnninicat ion and far away from any place from which liijUor could he ohtained.
Anyhody who was recommended could ;,'et a permit from the liieutemint-(io\ernor to
lirinf{ in li<|i/ii-. The population there was small, hut afterwards more peopl(> came in
and the law was less ohserved, and larjic i|uaiitities of lii|Uijr were illicitly imported into
the country.
.'("■"iftO. |)o you know wlii'lher the people in tho.se days resorted lo such compouniU
as pain-killer, eau <le ('oloij;iu' and.lamaica i,'in;,'er.' 1 lia\e no personal knowle(l;i;e of it,
I'xcepting one instance, when I .saw some parties makin<r a (pieer kind of cocktail in the
iiiorninf;. F cannot retnemlier the mixture, i)ut it looked to ine not to he ordinm v
liiiuor. I tliink tlie hasis of it was alcohol, and they liad some other mixture iiu'ludinj;
salts, 1 think, and they took it medicinally tliey said. its ctTect I do not know, ami
whether it was intoxicating; or not I do not know, as I did not taste it. I heard that
there were some jieople who, when tiiey could not yet spirituous li(|uor, resorted topain-
killer and other stuff', includitii,' \\'or<'ester sauce, l)ut I have ne\«'r .seen any i)er.sons
lakiiiLT those compounds.
M7")01. Takiny the second p.irt of your answer in rc<;ard to ('alj,'ary. we ha\e hecMi
lold of the decision i,'iven liy you in rei;ar<l to the working; of the ]icrinit ■^ysteln. to
which, if you have no ohjection. I will refer. I ha\e no ohjection ; my decisions are
pulilic.
•'{7i")0"_'. It was as to the |)0\ver possessed by any one who hroutcht in liipior umler
permit to pass it on to another person with the pi'iinit, after it had orne come into the
Territories? That is correct.
.")7-"i(l.'>. Was that the eHect of the decision .' If I hrin;: in litpior under a perniil
tVom the Lieutenant (iovernor it is IcLjally imported, and it helonijs to me, and there is
no ohjection to my j;ivin<; it to a nei;,dihour or <^i\iiij.; a man a hottle if I like, so loiiy
.1'; the(|uantity covered hy the permit is not ex>ee(!;'d. It does not make the ai'tion
illegal or illicit to gi\e the lii|Uor away.
•')7i>0l. Yf)ur decision did not relax the law in rcijard to h.irter or sale .' No.
.■{7")0r). Was your .ittention called to the fact that search was freipiently made
tlirouf^h gotids with a \ iew to tinding lii|Uor concealed inthiMn. Were any appeals
iii.ide to you in order to restrain search? — Nt).
.S7oOt). |)id jiersons who were searched lu'ver appeal to you for injunctions to
ii"-train the police.^ I had no experience of that.
•'>7")07. As a citi/en of C'aluary, are yon able to say whetlier before there ^^'as a
iliaui^e in tiie law there was illicit sale j,'oiiif; on in the conimunity? — Yes.
• m'jOS. W'e liave bee.n told to-day that this has been iroinf; on for two yeais? — Yes.
I'or two years l)et'ore the license systeiii was adopted li(|Uor was pretty nearly as free as
it is now.
•■57509. We hear that it was sold ([uite openly ; Yes.
381
n.
WT"
i^
!
']^'<
'.'
fe'
:i
i
f'
S
m.
Liquor Traffic — Noitli-west Territories.
'Mty\0. Do you know tlie (|Uiility of tlic li(|Uor, wlictlwT it was i)uri'<tr;i(lulter;itetl?
— ^\ s :\ rule it was j retty uood li([uor. Tin' jit'o|)l(' paid so iiiucli tliat tlicy did not care
to liiivi' second class iiijuor served to theitj.
•■'7r)ll. Was tlie |)rice hiiflier than it is mow.' Yes, a <;reat deal. I heard that as
liifili as SU) was ]iaid for a bottle of brandy.
'M^>\'2. Have you ever considered the i|uestion of the treatment of the persistent
drunkard ! Althouj^h you may not ha\e such mc-n heie, you know the kind of man to
whom I refer, the man who is constantly befoi'e the police coui't and is .sent to jail for a
shoit tei'iii, is then released ami is soon a<;ain before the court. lla\e you considere<l
whether, in rej^ard to such men, it would be bettei' to put them in some institution for
a lenjith of time, with a view to their refoi'mation '! — I think when a man is lost to all
sense of morality and has not the moral strength to r^ strain himself, it would bel)est to
send him to .some institution where he could yjet what is conmioniv called the ""joldcure."
37ol''i. You would not have the present sy.stem of short terms of imprisonment .'
—No.
I?".") 14. Have you had any opportuiuty of ascertaininjf whether the members
of the North-west Mounted Police ti-ied to enforce the prohibitory system 1 — Yes, to a
\ cry great extent.
3701 "), Did they appear to do their duty ? — I think so.
37.")lti. If I can Judge from the experience of the Connnissioner of the force and
the Superintendents, they were to a great extent powerless t — Yes.
37ol7. Did they do their duty so far as they were able t — Yes.
37ijlH. Do you know whether illicit stills prevailed to any great extent ? -I do not
think so. I only heard of three around this part of the country.
37oll>. Was smuggling the principal evil i — Yes.
.'$7.")'_'0. I ask you, as a .jurist, wiiat is the effect on a connnunity of having a law on
the statute-book which is persistently and flagrantly violated I - It lias an evil etl'ect. The
first evil effect is this, it brin,us into this country despei'ate characters, whisky suuiggleis,
wiio are not the best part of the population of any country. They make large pi'olits
out of the trade and they risk a great deal to bring in the lii|Uor, and of course they
are not the kind of citizens we like to see. .Since the license .system has come inti
force these parties have di^a|)|ieared. I believe the pi'ohibitory law was unpopular
with the people in this part of the country, so fai' as T know the feelings of the people.
and of course they woidd not oi)serve it.
37.">-l. Had you verv many cases brought before you in connection with tiiat law '
—Yes.
'M-'y22. of what kind ?— Appeals from convictions by Magistrates.
.■>7">-.'>. Ha\e you considered whetliei' it would be i-iglit in case of the enactment of
a jirohibition law for the whole country, that brewers ai\d distillers should receivi'
remuneration for their loss of plant and machinery / — I have not con udered that ipies-
tion, because it never entered into my mind that a prohibitory law would be passed for
the wliole Dominion. I think if such a law v ere jiassed, it would be oidy right that
those parties should receive remuneration ; but, on the other hand, 1 have always con
sidered that that law is one of tliose good things that cannot be enfori'cd. My re.ison
for thinking that is, because a man could manufacture li(juor any way in his own lioiise
So I think it is one of the fiiK> theories that are not practicable.
37.'")1.'4. We have had much evidence in ti.e Province of <.^uel)ec in regard to llie
advantage of promoting the use of light wines and ales instead of tlu- heavier licpiois '
— Yes, 1 think it would be a g(Mid thing if light wines could be introduced into tin'
country. You have an example of their use in I'' ranee, where the people do not think
of drinking water, and the |)rincipal use they mak>' of it is for washing purposes. In
{''ranee the people are most temperate, notwithstantling the fa<'t that they are habitual
users of light wines.
.■(7o"jr). Do you think the climatic conditions here might render it ditlicult to use
those liipiors here ? — Yes.
.■{7r)"_Ml. You would favour the adoption of such a system, if it were ]>ossil)le ? Ye-,
for a certain class of the people. I do not think, howevei', that you should deprive (lie
Hon. Cii.\hi,ks li J^on.KAf.
382
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Ifii'j,'!' niiijofity of the i)Pojile <>f wlmt liquor tlicv wish, hci'iiusc thi- iliiuikards ai'f sucli
ii small iiiiiudity nt' tht^ pt'oiilc of the wholn Doiiiiniuii tiifit tlit v mo liai'iiiy worlli sjicak-
iiij; (if. For instance, in this conniiunity with a iiopulatinn of l.UOO |icn|i](', muyhly
si.eakinj;, I do not know now of one habitual drunkard : tluTc may he one or two in
till' town, hut I do not know of them.
•i7-")i!7. I'akinij your experionce as a whole, of the town and your knowledj^'e of this
section, do you believe that a very small minority of tho.se who use licjuors use them to
e.vcess / — I believe so.
;i7i">-'^. Have you had any e.xperiencc of a prohii)itory law 'n< any other lountry 1 —
1 Itave seen it in Vt-rmont, but it was not a sucee.ss. We could get all the litjuor we
wanted.
;$7")2'.). You spoke of some appeals uoniing before you : of what nature were they?
— They were appeals from convictions.
.■i7r)30. For iiaving liijuor to .sell or for selling liiiuor?— Probably for having liijuoi*
in their possession. Tiiere was a difference of opinion and the Justices of the Peace
tiiought their opinion was right, and I thouglit my ojiinion was lietter.
.■}7-")-'U. Your opinion prevailed ! -Yes, and they had to amend the law to suit their
own way of interpreting it. They had been enforcing the law contrary to its real
meaning. There had been strictness on their part and on the part of the Magistrates
ill trying to enforce the law, but they might have enforeeil it in a simpler manner.
.'<7-").'}2. You say there was strictness on their part ! — Yes, they iiad been very strict
so far as they went, but I tiiought they would have enforced the law with more etlect
if they had arre.'-ied jiarties for selling the liquor. Tliat is a \ery simple matter, for a
man selling liquor over a l)--.;- could be arrested. It is, moreover, easier to pi'ove such a
case, but in regard to having licpior in possession it is very ditlicult to prove it, for
wiieii a man produces a permit and says he has li(]uor in his pos.session legally, it is
ilillicult to make out a case.
;i7r);i.'i. W'e tind there was a great increast' in the 'juantity of liipior coming into
the 'i'erritories of late years, and it ha.'- been suggested that owing to this fact, the
lienuit .system was extended so as to bting in li(]Uor legally and get rid of the smuggled
lii|uor .' — 1 have no per.sonal knowleilge in regard to that matter, and the only opinion 1
lui\t' is from what 1 ha\t' heard.
.'!7.">.'i4. Ha\e you e\cr had any case iiefor(^ you that inviilved the search of peison
Mild domicile by the police uniler the jirohibitory rt'gulations .' No such case came liefure
me for in\estiiratioii that I remember.
' II !^ :i
! .(1 ■;
, i
I I
ssed fur
rlit that
ays coll
Iv reason
,11 llOilse
d to tlir
li(|Uors '
into the
not think
OSes. In
habitual
lit to use
Ic? -Ye-,
jprive the
Vi
Jli/ Ner. Dr M<L<i,d:
.■i7-"):i"). I think you .-said that in the early da> s prolubitn.ii was fairly well enforced ?
;i7-"i.'ii). And in tlie later years there was more lii|i!or consumed .' Yes; tiie popu-
1 ilioii grew larger-, and it was more dillieiilt to enforce the law.
.'m-'i.'m. Was it attriliutable in ,'iny degree to the miiiilier of permits issucii '- >o, I
lliiiik it was due to th(- large increase in t he population. (>f course with a larg"' increase
lit' pop'ilation, there would be a large increase in the number of permits issa* il, because
when li'.e riieutenant-(!o\-ei:ior knew a man jiersoiedly he granted him a permit.
■')7.").'lt'<. In lf<S;{ when you came to the Territories the quantity of li(|Uor entering
li\ iirrmit ^.is (i,7.'i(i gallons and in ISSti, three years afterwards, the qu.inlity had
iiiereasei' ' 2(),.")(l I gallons, or something like three limes as much ;is in IS.si;!, Was
lliere a,, .crease in the jiopulation in the' .same ratio / Yes, and more than four times,
I ause the railway eaine to the mountains in li^S.'i, and it went through in If'Sl, I
think. So that tliree yeai's afterwards the railway got into running iird(>r. and
llhre was three or four times as lai'g(( a population as there was liefore.
•>7-'">."lit. Did you notice jiny ditl'erence after the introduction of the four per cent lieer
1 refer to an increase in drinking f -No, I cannot say that ! i-emembei' any great
diU'ereiice.
H7.")40. In 18M7, under the four jier cent plan, there wert> l"il, 12U gallons permitted '(
riiat includeil beer, of coun-ic.
383
1
i
11
1
1
iiii
If' jffi
V
Ipi
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
•■i7i">U. A giKul (|Uiiiititv of luHif, 1111(1 tlicre was iiu increase also in iIk; c|iiaiitity of
spirits pcniiittcd to conio in .' Yes.'
■'i7")4l!. Coiiipariiig tilt! itiiue after tli/l' four per cent i)eer was permitted witli tiic
years preceding it, did you observe wlietlier tliere whs an iiierease in the eonsunijition
of li(|uor and an incieiise in the etl'ects of li(|Uor ,' It is pretty iiard to say, liec-ause the
po[)iihition was increasing so fast. You cannot easily keej) track of those matters unless
you make a jiarticular study of them.
.'!7"» !•'{. I'rior to the license system, wliicli came into operation on 1st May last, we
have lieen told here that the town of Calgary actually issued licenses to a iiumher ot
persons in the face of the permit system. Do you know anything ahout that.' — Thev
were not licen.sed to sell li(|Uor.
'Mi'ii-i. They were licensefl, to do what .' They were licensed to k"ep saloons. The\
were iillowed to sell what wei'f^ called temperance drinks.
.■iT")!."). That suggests unother ipiestion : Do you know whether they .sold other than
temperance drinks',' That is hard for me to say. I know one or two cases were
brought before me in which the parties were charged witli selling spirituous liquors, and
they pleaded.
;{75 1(1. What did they jilead? T could not tell you the particulars of the cases ;
they occurred two or three years ago.
;i7")l7. NN'lieii they were brought before you charged with selling without perm,;,
were they able to produce stubs of permits and thus protect themselves from peiinl
ties? -They could not do that iiecause the Lieuteiiant-(Jovernor never allowed tlieiii tn
sell, I mean to sell spirituous lic|Uors : as a rule they were brought before me forluuiiii;
li(|Uor in their possession.
.'i7;")4l^. Then it was not possible to pro e that they sold the lii|iior.' They weic
not accused of selling.
.■}7-")+9. Has a man a right to sell litpior and then produce a stub as his justiHcation
on a charge of selling li(|Uor on his permit .' — There never was such a case.
.'!7nr)0. Do you Know, from your general knowledge, that men who had niunicip.il
licen.ses did really sell spirituous li<iuors .' 1 heard it, but I do not know it per.soiiailv.
.'{7")") I, Comparing the three system>; that have been in o()eration, the (S'lrlv perniii
system, then the four i)er cut beer system, and now the license system,
able ill your opinion ?-- So far as I am c(iiicerne(l, I would rather
restricted, and regulated by law, and I prefer a license system.
.')7-")-">2. You have already stated that the license l.-iw has been sc liort a time in
operation that you have not been able to form a judgment in regard ti it. So far ,i-
regards the Province of (^)uebec, I know it worki'd jiretty well, and you can make ii a~
strict as you plejise.
.'i7'").").'i. Do vou regard the old system as a ]irohibitioii system or as a permit svstcin '
— I think it was neither a tish nor a bird. I lio not know what to call it. It \va>
prohibition to a certain cla.ss of the population.
.■)7">-")l. So it really could luit be regarded as out and out |)roliil)itinn .'- It was nni a
real prohibition system.
.■(7.").")."). I notice that Commissioner Herchmer in his report for ISS;)^ referrini; tn
the li(|Uor trattic in the Territories, said : " The peruiit system should be doneaway with.
if the law is to be enforced." Uy which I understand him to mean that permits were issued
(althf)Ugh he does not say so) indiscriminately, "that made the system of jirohibilii.n
iiiipracticaiile." Have you observed that '. — No. I did nut think of that, because in Is.sli,
I w;is living here at the time, and I know as a fact that iiijuor was \ ery freelv inipoiiiil
The ijieuleiiant-CJovernor after a lime refused to issue j)ermits
.'{"ri'iG. Ft has been slated by some witnes.ses that smuggling was 'facilitated ami
made safe by the jiermit system, that if a man had a pei'init for ti\'e gallons he held I In'
stub; that if a further ijuantity was smuggled in, and if he was accused of lia\iiiu'
li(|Uor in his jiossession, all he had to do was to jiroduce the stub, and so long as lin'
(piantit" ilid not exceed the specified amount he was safe .' The ditliciilty was tlii^. tliai
the permits did not specify the time which the man might hold the liipior in liis yn-
session. If] had li(juor in my poss 'ssitin F ilid not find it necessary,;'., iniiic jiaiti'sdid,
IFON. ClIAHLKS I'. WoLl.lvM'.
384
which is prefci
see the tr.uli
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
fiii;;!
intity lit
vith till-
;uni|itiuM
aiisf till'
!rs vmU'ss
r last, \M'
iiiiber ot'
I, ?— They
(lis. Thf'v
itlier than
ISPS well'
luni's, ami
,lu' cast's ;
It jieniil;.
run lu'lliil
ll tlK'lll til
t'di-liaviin:
['hey wt'ic
istifiiMtiim
iiuiiiic'iiial
pci'siiiially.
Illy jHTiiiii
ll is prcffi
tlic trail-'
a time ill
Si) t'ar a-
iiakc il a-
lit systciu ;
it \va-
l<> (h'iiik It all at once. 1 kept it for one or two years, and it would always he cM)\ci'fd
l>y the permit ; and later on the fuh; was adojited hy wliifh excry time a permit was
filled tlu! permit itself must he returned and ix- cancelled and all the man wmild I'etaiii
W((uld he the stuh.
•■57")o7. Was that lately! — No, it was a pretty lung time ago. When a man
wanted to make it a])pear that he had a jieruiit lie would refer to the stuh. If the
permit was not cancelled, the man would send hack for any other sujiply.
.'?7-')o8. You spoke ahout the '"gold cure'' and a})peared to think that it would he a
hetter way of dealing with inebriates ( — Yes, from what T have seen of the results it is
a perfect cure. I have known 10 or 12 men who were advaiiceij in the alcoholic disease
and they were practically cured.
.'iToi")!). Do you think it is wise for the Goveriunent to permit a tratlic that reipiires
such institutions to be maintained ! — J}y taking prop<?r cart; of inebriates I think the
(tovei nment would be acting wisely.
.'JTilCO. You have spoken of the condition of affairs in France ] --Yes.
.■i7o01. Have you, from your reading or observation, observed that there lias been
an increase in the use of alcoholic liijuors in France during the past few years ] — I liave
heard .so.
.■i7o()2. It has been officially stated that there has been such increase ? — Yes, I lia\e
seen it stated.
.■57-'"iGI{. If the people were not able to get wine would they resort to other coni-
p( unds^ — In my opinion people always want stimulants.
.■?7o()4. Are there not some who do not want them? — It depends a good deal on the
constitution of the parties and their former habits, and tiiere are a great many matters
to be taken into consideration.
.■(750'). You are Judge of the Supreme Court, and liave to deal with the gra\ er
crimes committed in your district? — Yes.
.■{7oG(). Have you, during your professional career at the Har and on the JJench,
observed whether any jiercentage of the serious crimes coining before y(ui are attributa-
ble, directly or indirectly, to the drink habit? — My experience has been contrary to
that. My experience is that the graver crimes, with which 1 have had to do, liave
not been attributable at all to liijuoi'. A great many small cases might be so attribu-
talile, but my experic;;ct> in these Territories and in the east is ijuite contrary to that.
Bi/ Judge McDonald:
•■!i-'")lt7, lu regard to the use of wine in France. If the use of wine has developed a
desi.i' tor iilcohol, that is now said to be more prevalent tlian formerly, would not you
1 ,.\'-'- exT)t eil it to have developed centuries ago I — Yes.
■:,;j'j'".. This use of light wines in France is not a thing of recent years, I suppose ',
->.' . it 1. IS Ijeea continued for centurie.s.
u:\
I
I I ■
r!
t was iiiii I
ternng to
iway with,
(.]■(■ is>\lril
r((hibiiii.ii
SI' in t>>''.
iiiipiirliil
itatcd anil
,- held ill''
of ha\,!.'j
long ''^ ''"'
s tills, thai
in l.'is I'll-
parti.'M'i'l.
A. ROSS CUTHP.KUT, of Calgary, Inspector of the Xorih-wesi .Mounted l',.licc,
III! Ii"iiig duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
Jii/ Jud(/e McDonald :
'^~'>{V.K How long have you resided in tin Territories? Siin ■■ the sunmierof 18'^').
;$7o70. Did you come here in connection with the police force ?- Yes.
■i7")71. Have you been stationed at any other places than Calgary /I was four
V' ''N f I'rince All)ert, aljout one year at Uegina and the rest of the time here.
17 .iVl'. From which of the provinces did you come? — l''rom (.^ueiiec, the County of
ll' I tliier.
•i7.'')7,'?. I suppose, in the ihscharge of your ollicial duties, you hav(; had todeal with
'111' prohibitory or permit law ? — Yes, it h;is ijeen oius of the many duties which the
Miiuiited Police have had to discharge.
.•{85
21 25**
It
ill
i!
1 I.
II
ii
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
37i)7 L So fav as your experience extends have the Mounted Police endeavoured
faithfully to carry out the duties committed to them 1 — Yes, as a Ijody they have.
13757-'). Have you found it very ditHcult to do so 1 — Yes, very ditticult.
3757C. Have you found many difhculties in the way of preventing people bringing
in liquor ?~Yes.
.'57")77. Please give the Commissioners your experience as regards those dirticulties 'I
— Of course in great many cases those matters have been reported to me as an officer.
Personally, I have had no special experience, except in regard to destroying seized liquors
which had been found in all manner of goods and packed in all kinds of ways.
l57n7M. In what way was the liquor j)acked ? — Some liquor was found packed in
piano and organ cases, also in barrels of apples, and sugar and rice.
.37579. Have you reason to believe that fill the liquor so packed and sent into the
country was detected ? — No, only a very small percentage was detected I fancy.
.37580. Had you occasion to deal with people who were misusing permits, that is
to say, permits that had run out '?— Yes, especially in Calgary.
.37581. In that way ' .s there trouble here? — When a case was brought up for
trial under the statute al • ariably the party produced a permit to cover the
liiiuor, the j)ermit not neces£:i. > liis own name, but one used by another person and
which covered the same quantic_;
37582. Were the liquors seized for being exposed for sale ? — They were seized for
being in possession of the parties. It was very difficult to get a case of selling, because
it was difficult to get anybody to buy a drink and then inform.
3758.3. Have you found, in the discharge of your duties, that in those cases there
was a great deal of perjury connnitted, more so than in other cases ? — Yes, very much
more so. A man hardly considered it any offence to lie in the whisky cases.
37584. Have you found, in your experience, that there were people who used
Jamaica ginger, ])ain-killer and substances of that kind for beverage purposes 1 — Yes,
and reil ink and methylated s])in'' s, als(> the contents of fire hand grenades and almost
everything that would intoxicate.
37585. Those are cases that came under your own personal knowledge, I suppose .'
— They occurred at Prince Albert.
37586. It has been suggested that only old topers could use such compounds. Was
it youi' experience that the use of such articles was confined to that class? — Very nuicli
so; but, of course, Jamaica ginger was considered one of the very best drinks next to
liquor itself.
.37587. Then its use was not confined to the old toper class? — Not altogether.
37588. Do you know <»f the drink in Prince Albert called Moka ? — I have heard of
it. It was spoken of as an intoxicating diink, but I never had any experience of it.
.37589. Were yi>u here at tlie time the cargo of barrels labelled " four per cent
beer" was seiz(Ml and found to C(jntain spirituous li(juors, which were destroyed ? — Xo, I
do not remember. 1 was not here at the time.
.37590. Latterly, before the license law came into operation, there were a great
many permits for 20 gallons, and beei' came in in l)ai'rels containing bottles of beer at
V)oth ends and whisky in the centre, which came undei' beer permits ? — Yes, and bottles
of aerated water came in, and between them were bottles containing spirituous liquors.
37591. Judging from your experience, do you think it is practicable to thorougiily
enforce a pi'ohibitoi-y law ? — I do not, unless public opinion became more in favour of it,
and that seems to be an utter impossibility.
■37592. Have you found that feeling prevailing over the country at large? — Yes.
altogether.
37593. You have lived in communities where the license law was in force and
where sale was not permitted on Sunday and during certain hours ? — Yes.
37594. Did you find public sentiment in favour of such prohibition? — Yes ; but in
a great many cases the law was not carried out.
37595. Then the j)eople backed the law ? — Yes, there was a greater feeling in favoui'
of carrying out that law.
37596. Do you find the ^ame feeling prevailing in the Territories in regard to total
prohibition ? — No, there is not.
A. Ross CUTIlIiEKT.
880
a great
Ikht .u
ul bottle-
IS li(iuor-.
ior()U,tilily
.ourof it,
re r- Yes,
force iiiul
L>s ; Vmt ill
111 favour
•d to tdtiil
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{7;"}!>7. Were you troubled with illieit .^^tills at all ? — Yes, there were three or four
illicit stills in this district.
.SToD^. What did they use for tlie iiurpose of distillation ? — It was very hard to
tell. They had not been in recent use. In one or two corn was found. I know that
whisky was niafle from potato peelings.
.'{7599. Where spirituous li([uors were sold, had you any I'eason to believe they
were adulterated ? — Of course there was a difl'erence in (juality, but I had no means (jf
knowing whether they were adulterated or not.
.■?7600. Wo far as your knowledge goes and so far a.s your experiences as an oflicer
of the North-west Mounted Police force goes, has that force, as a body, honestly and truly
endeavoured to carry out its duties ?— Yes, to the best of my knowledge. There have
been a few exceptions. The temptations have been great for men placed in responsible
positions, and in regard to a few individuals we had reason to believe afterwards that
they had yieldeii, as their duties could have been more satisfactorily done. I5ut, as a
general rule members of the force faithfully carried out their duties and the law was
endeavoured to l)e enforced.
.■?7()01. Had you any cases where domiciliary search was made .'—Yes, and search
of persons.
37602.
.•i760:5.
••{7604.
-Yes.
That became neces.sary in some cases, I suppose ?-
And it was carried out 1 — Yes.
I suppose, in .some of the cases of visiting houses, the men did the duty
becau.se it was laid on them to do so? — I have no knowledge of any other intluence
making the men do so except the .sense of duty.
.S7G0o. You found it to be a disagreeable duty, I suppose? — Yes.
■■{7()06. But you found the men, as a body, faitiifully doing their duty? — Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLmd:
37007. Do I understand that the permits increased the difticulties of the police in
enforcing the law ? — Very much so.
.■i7()08. Do you regarfl the system as a system of jjrohibition or rather of permis-
sion ] — It was a .system of permission.
.'{7r)09. Have yt)u ever had much trouble on account of the drinking habits of the
men under your charge? — Yes. It has been one of the greatest dilHculties witii the force.
Of course the men occupy [)ositioiis in which temptations liave Ijeeii placed in
(heir way, probably such temptations as are not jilaeed in the way of otht-r men.
37<il0. I su])pose there is a canteen to each station ,' Latterly thert? has been.
.'{7(J11. How recently were the canteens established? — It was established three or
tour years ago.
37t)12. What was the object of their establishment? — Tcj keeji the men out of
trouble in the towns.
.'i7()l."5. And was it to prevent their getting liquor? — No, but to gi\e them amuse-
ment and pastime in the barracks.
37014. T suppose li(juor is sold there ? — There is the sale of beer.
3701.'). Only beer?— Ye.s.
37010. No spirituous li(|Uors are allowed ? — No.
37017. Have you reason to believe that the constables ha\(? fi'e(iuented where li(iuois
were sold ? — Cases never came under my notice. It is probable that there have been
such cases, but they have never come under my notice.
37018. Could the men get driidv by j)ermit? — The men cijuld in a great many I'asea
L'ct li(|uor from people who were interested in the traffic and would take that means of
liiibing them.
37019. Then they did get litjuor from men in the illicit trade? For the most part
from saloon-keepers.
370)20. Do you think there would be a tendency to make the force less vigilant than
they would liave been ? — Yes.
37021. It has Itfeen stated that the men would wink at offences and in that way
would greatly increase their pay, because they would be tipped for doing so. Do you
think that charge is, to some extent correct? — I think it is correct, because one man who
387
i)l_25j**
^
\\\
\\
'
rir-
i;.
I' ;'),
I ''m
m
Liquor Tiattic — North-west Territories.
was on duty in Cal;;ary before the license law came into force, told Mwn that it, was
worth sl,SOO a y.'ar for a man stationed there not to do his duty.
'M>'}-2. That w<»ukl he a very strong tem[)tation I suppose'/ — Yes, especially for a
man who only gets 81-'< a month, unless he was of very gcxxl metal and resisted.
'M{'}'2'.\. Then he would have to be something over the ordinary averag;' man 1 — Yes.
Hecause he expected to be only a few years in the force and he could cai'ry this on
without being found out.
'Mii'2l. I )o you think that this state of things prevailed over the Territories and that
it interfered with the rigid enfor'-ement of the law ? — Yes, iti a few cases.
'VH\'2'i. Take the last year or two in Calgary bi'fore the license law came into
operation : we understand there were licenses to sell licpiid I'efreshments granted to 10
or 20 persons who were supposed to sell at the same time spirituous li(|uors and intoxi-
cants. I)o you know whether members of the force were in the habit of prosecuting
those places'? — 1 do not know that they were generally prosecuted, but some were, no
doubt.
•57G2(). Were complaints made by the officers against those dealers for illicit selling t
— It was very difficult to get information on which to base a complaint, because men
who were brought up for being drunk would nevei' say where they got the liijuor ; they
could not be forced to tell.
37G27. I suppose the officers looked out for infringements of the law in Calgary as
well as elsewhere 1 — Yes.
'Mi'i2H. Were there many cases of infringement brought to the attention of tin- otli
cers ?— A great many.
■'57GL"J. Those were prosecuted and penalties imposed ? Always.
.'57G.'50. W^ere there many cases of convictions in Calgary during the time that
liquid refreshments were allowed 'f — There were a great many.
.■{7G;{1. It has been suggested, an<l, perhaps, you, as an officer having to deal with
such matters, have some knowledge of it, that when a man was prosecuted for having
liquor in his possession, befoi-e the case would proceed to trial, the man charged wilii
the otTence would send to Hegina for a permit, which would be dated subsequent to the
seizure. Do you know of such cases ?^No cases of that kind came under my own per-
sonal attention, but I have heard of sucii things being done.
.■i7G-'iL'. Of course it was very difficult to enforce the law wIkmi such things occurred .'
—Yes.
Hi/ Judge McDonald :
.■i7G."5.'5. In regard to the jiei'mit, did you mean that it would be datetl after tlir
seizure? — The permit was dated at the time of the seizure.
.'576."U. What evidence was thcn^ that the liipior was subsequently obtained.'
Simply because there was no production of the permit at the time the seizure took
place.
;{7G-5o. So that ])ei'init was antedated 1 — I nevei' examined into the matter very
closely, but it must have Ijeen antedated for the man to C(jver the liquor by it.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
.■i76.'U). I suppose, if the man had li(|uor seized and had a permit, he would produce
it innuediately 1 — Yes.
■'{7G''57. The fact that he produced th(( permit only soKie days after was very stroni;
evidence that he procured it latterly ? — Yes. In a great many cases the permit w as
produced some days afterwards by the man going round collecting old pei-mits tf) co\cr
the li(|Uor.
lijj Jiuhje McDonald :
.■{7G''H. We have been told that a legal decision was given that sf) long as tlie
li(|Uor was not for barter and sale, it could bi; passed from one man to another 1 — Yes.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod: ,
;{7G.'$y. So when a man smuggled liquor he could borrow a permit or procure mu'
to stand between him and conviction? — Yes.
A. Ross CUTIIBEUT.
388
produce
■i-y stroiii;
rinit was
to cover
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
r :l
' '' !' :|
tliiit
jiftcr till'
Bi/ Jtidijo. Ml- Donald:
.'iTfilO. Wiis there imu-li of tliiit doiK^ ! Yes.
.'("•in. 'J'lieie is a eliari,fe niiide ot' the almse of the jieniiil system, liy wliich a man
yot a penriit contrary to the sj>irit if not tlie letter iif llie law. If the system had
htMMi (ib.ser\('d, wuidd there have heeii any litjuor snuij,'<;lin;^ in sugar l)arrels and the
like? -Yes, hut not to the Name extent. When tlie le<,'al decision had been i;i\en that
any permit cnuld cu.ei' a tfiven (piantity of li(|U(ii', then it s\as that perndts were issued
more extensively. Iiefoie that time li(|unr was smui;i,ded more.
• 'iTlilL'. Was there not, after tiie inti'oduction of tlie four per cent lieer ]>laii, a i;reat
deal of smuggling .' — Y'^es ; there has heen continuously a great deal of smuggling and
large quantities of liipior have come in on the cars.
.■i7t)4.'5. No less than I. ")."5, 000 gallons were covered by permit in ISIKJ. Would that,
ill any degree, co\ci' the ipiaiitity brought into the Territories.' J>y no means.
•'iTtUI. Then there was a lai'ge i|uaiitity smuggled ' — Y'es. I have a case in which
a man was informed against for having liijuor in his jiossession and who, di ring the same
day, produced permits for double the ipiantity he had — permits that h(^ had collected
(luring the day. Sijiiie of thos(! permits were for liipior obtained a year before. It was
loo absurd to pass o\er, so the pei'mits were returned as not co\ering the lii|Uor.
."Mtilo. We ha\e been told that latterly the stubs were coUectcMl and cancelled?- -
Latterly they we-re.
."(TlUf). ^^'o have been told tluit when a man got a permit the stub would be left
with him for his protection and the permit would be sent to the seller. The Ivxpress
(.'oiiipany reipiired the permit which was afterw arils cancelled, but the man retained the
stub and could use it afterwards and justify his being in possession of liijUor? — It mav
ha\e been done in some localities, but I do not know of it being done here.
•')7(i47. We have been told that during the last two years there has lieen illiiit sale
carried on here ! — Yes.
■■iTtill^. Tn several places I -Yes.
;57G4'.t. And the action taken recently was simply licensing w hat was before illegal !
- Yes. There was sale, and we were not able to gel lujld of the oirenders. It was dilh-
ciilt to get information sutlicient to obtain convictions, and this ditliculty prevailed in a
ureal many cases which would otherwise liaM- been proceedetl against.
•■i7()--)0. Y'ou have spoken of temptations in the way of your men that \('re not in
the way of other men I Y'es. The saloon-keeper knows that a mounted jioliccman sduty
is to catch him if he can, and he will try to get the policeman on his side by some means
or other.
•">7n.")l. ^'ou think that only in a limited number of cases they succeeded .' Yes.
hy Rev. Dr. McLeod:
•'w'io'J. ^'(lU were not aware of any ]ierioil when the stubs were cancelle
nil not awaiv of any period when the stubs were cancelled.
No, I
•ocure one
389
^
I
^1^:;;^
i=li*i
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
ARTHUR STFTON, of Calgary, barrister, on Ijeiiii,' duly sworn, deposed as
fulldws ; —
Jii/ Judiji' MrDiniiild:
.'?7(5')-'?. AVe understand ytui liold an otlicial position ? — Yes, I do at jiresent.
•t7nr)4. Wliat is it? — 1 am Town Solicitor.
.■i7()-"»"). Art' you ajipointi'd by tiic Town Council ! -Yes.
;>7li")fi. Wliat are you !• duties / -My duties are to conduct suits on l)elialf of the
Corpiii'ation, draw up l)y-laws, attend to infractions of those by-laws and advise the
Council.
.■!7(t">7. How long have you lived in the North-west Territories? — Since 1885, with
the exce]>fion of (jne year I sjieut in California.
.'!7<)-")8. Have you resided in Calgary all that time '. — Xo. I was two and one-half
years at Pr'ince Albert.
.■57tv")!l. How long have you held the position of Town Solicitor? — Two months.
.'{70GU. Did you come from Ontario originally?—! came from Manitoba to the
Territories, but I cauHs from (Jntai'io in 187.).
•'{7')l)l. From what county? — From Middlesex.
.'i7ti<'il'. Speaking in yourofHcial capacity, how tlo you find the licenst^ system to work.
Are there any amendments you can suggest in regard to it .'--Yes, there are a numi)er
of amendments desirable.
;{7(3();{. We should be glad to hear them stated ? I think those suggested b}' the
Mayor this morning, and by the Chief of Police, would be, to a certain extent, improve-
ments, namely, to have open bar-rooms fronting the street and with no screens at win-
dows. 1 think in regard to tliewhoiesalelicen.se i.ssued the quantity allowed to be .sold
is entirely too small, and besides the party is allowed to keep open on Saturday night after
the hotels are closed.
.'57ti<') 1. They are altoweil to keep open up to what hours? — Up to 11 o'clock.
.■(7'' ">. Are they allowed to sell groceries in connection with lifiuors \ — Xn, only
li([Uors.
;?7t>ti('). What evil do you tiiink the permission to keep open causes? -The woi-kiiii;
men are in the habit of purchasing i)ottles of li(|Uor and taking it home with them,
whereas it would jirobably be better if they could only get it by the glass.
•'i7l)fi7. Have you any other suggestions to offer. In some ))laces it has been sug
gested that inspection of liquors woidd be desirable ? — I do not tlr ik that would niakr
any particular ditl'erence.
.'i7ti(')S. What do you think in regard to the number of licenses that should In-
allowed, 'i'ake Calgary, for instance : is the luunber reasonable? — If hou.ses are to bi'
licensed 1 think tin- lunnljer is a fair one for this town. I do not think the number of
hotels is in e.vcess of the nuudier required. We ha\t' a floating population and icquirc
a good dial of hotel accommodation.
;i7t')t'>'.t. Do you third< the restaurants are re(juired for the sale of li((uor ? I ilo iioi
think they are.
M7fl70. Do you think the restaurants should be i-e(juired to close at the same time ;i-
tlie hotels. Are they obliged to do so? — Xo.
.'i7t')71. Mow long can they keep open.' — I havene\er jjaid any at ten tioa to restaurant >.
■'<7<i72. According to your experience if it was necessary to do away with the .saloon
bar and the hotel bar, which would it be better to get ritl of? — Pei-sonally I think tlir
hotel bar does more harm in regard to leafling people to drink, that is people wIkj air
obliged to go there on business.
.■57t'»7."i. You think the hotel liar is more injurious ? — Y''es, in regard to leading away
people who do not wish to drink.
■ )7r)7 1. Then if either hatl to be dispensed with, which would you dispense with I
The hotel bar.
•'{7')7i"). ^\'o^dd yiai dispense with both ? — -Yes.
Ahthur Sikton.
390
mfsr
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;<7(17t). Arc you t'iivouiahlc to proliibition as a jirineii'.lo ? — Yes. Tliat is only ooi\-
sideriiij; it tVoiii my own standpoint, as a mural ((lU'stion. Legally, I liclievc in jit'oplo
liavinj; wiiatever tliey want — that is to say whatevoi' the majority desire.
37677. Tlien you would not helieve in jiroliibition by law ( Yes, if the majoi'ity of
the people were in favour of it. I believe it should be left entii'ely to the jjeople's
wishes to decide tii(! (piestioii by a majority.
;}7tJ7f<. Then you think, if the majority of the people were in favour of it, it should
be enacted? — Yes.
.■i7()7!). Do you think it would l)e practicable / — Yes.
.■i7()S0. l)oyou think it coukl be enforced ! — Ye.s.
.■57t>''^l. Y'ou have heard the e\iilence f,dven by the otlicers of the Xorth-west .Mounted
Police as to tlx; diliiculties they had in i-egard to enforcing; the prohibitory law in tin-
Territories .'—Yes.
■■i7GSL'. Lookini; at their account, a!id taking the country as a whole, you still
think that prohibition could be enforced ! — Yes.
.■{7()S.">. What means would you suf;;,'est of enforcinti it .' — I think if tht; ^^a,l;is-
trates ap|>ointed to enforce it, and the justices before whom the cases came, were in
favoui' of the enforcement of a prohibitory law, and the law was properly drawn, it could
be enforced with the number of men we iiave tit present, or with a less numlter.
37084. l)o I understand you to say that the judiciary of the country will follow
their own fcelini.'s, they not being in favour of the law, in deciding legal ([uestions that
come before them .' — No, I do not say so.
.■?7(')lS."). You said if you had a judiciary in favour of the enforcement of the law ! — -
Yes, I was referi'ing more generally to the Magistrates.
.■)7l')lS(). It has generally been conceded that the judiciary of this country ne\'er
allow themselves to be influenced by those sentiments in the ailministi'ation of the law,'
--1 do not say they do. But take the evidence of Inspector C'uthliert. lie said the
decisions of the court went a long way in preventing them from enforcing the law I
do not mean that the decision of the court was wrong or that the members of the court
were wrongly intluenccd, but the court did hold that the law was not as it was supposed
to be.
.■i7087. I)o you mean to say that the court was wrong.'- No. I mean to say it
was not a prohibitory law.
•'?7t>8S. How do you propose to strengthen the action of the Juiliciary upon the
Muestion : is it not the duly of the judiciary to decide all principles? — Certainly.
•■57(iSU. That being the c;ise, it is not the appointment of .Magist rites and Judges
who were faxourabie or unfaxourable to the law that would intiucnce ''le decisions !~
The a]ipointinent of Magistrates would ha\e a great ileal to do w ith the matter.
• HtlDO. Magistrates of what kind .' — Ordinary Justices of the Peace.
•■?7<)9l. Have you not those now .' — ^We liav<' a great many of them.
•')7t)!)"J. Would you propose to select Justices of a different kind in order to carry
iiiit a prohiljitory law .' — I would.
•■)7l)9.">. Would you select men who were favourable to the law .'- .\o, Init I would
Kc Very careful to get good men.
•")7t)!)-l-. Are the authorities not careful now? — They Jire not always careful. It
must, however, be remembered that these Miigistrates act to a largi; extent without
)i.iy. and it is of course dilHcult to get good incn who are competent to dexnte the neces-
'■ary time to the woi'k without being paid for it.
■■57t)y.'). Is there anything to prevent the appointment of a Stipendiary Magistrate?
-I think that would be proper.
.')7t)i)(J. Are you acijuainted with the Irish Constabulary, which, as you know, is a
jiicki'd force. Would that force be such a force as you have in \ iew .' — To a certain ex-
tent, something similar to that. I believe for the enforcement of all laws, Stipendiary
Magistrates are proper judicial olKcers to appoint. We have great dirticulty in all I'ases
that are before ordinary Magistrates, who have no time to devote to them.
.■{7(')!)7. Would you hope to enforce a prohibitory law under such conditions as you
lia\e spoken of? — Yes.
37098. You think it would be ju-acticable and advisable ? — Yes
391
!
ii
11
Liquor Tmllic — North-west Territories.
'MCiW. |)o you tliiiik it >v<)ul(l he iuIn istiMf for tlio Triritorics asu wliolo ? I'or i !io
Doniinioti as n wliolc.
.■)770U. ^\ii(l for tlif 'riTrilui'ics ? -Yes, But I want iiotliiiit,' cxfciit nalioiial pro-
liiliitioii.
."("TOl. If you could not f^ot jj;t'nerul prohibition, would you not take juoliibition for
the Ti'i'i'itoiics .' T do not tliink I would.
.'("TOi'. Ha\c you had any o]>iiortunity of fonnin;^ an (^pinion aa to the sentiment of
the eonununity as a w hole on this sul)iec't ?- -I iind tiie sentiment- in tiiis part of tiie
Teri'itoiies, and jiai'liiularly laitside of the towns of the southern I'ountry to he a f,'i-eat
deal moi-e in fa\ouf of prohibition tiian is tiie sentiment in the towns, especially in
Califary.
3770;'). Do you not lind the sentiment in towns as favourable to general prohibition
as in th(' country .' No.
."$7701. Outside the towns, is tiie sentiment favoural>ie to it? — Yes.
.1770(3. Can you account for a Legislature fresii from the people enacting a license
law unless the inenil)ers were acting in accordance with popular sentinu-nt ? Yes, I can
to a ctu'tain extent. Tiiere wi-re oth(!i' ipiestions before tli(! peo))le at the time the last
Legislature was elected. W'e elected t wo ukmi in this district by acclamation without
contest.
.'5770t). Were they both license men? — Yes. Wiiile there were a great number nf
prohibitionists in tliis district there was not a sufficient number who thought it was an
important matter to elect a candidate in oi)position to those men : they were considering
other matters that were of larger importance.
.'i77U7. So the entire prohibitionists in Calgary did not attempt to carry out pro-
liibition? — No.
.■i770.'^. Was that the case in the whole country? -W'itii the excejition of one ur
two districts : in Assinilioia it was tiie ca,se.
.■>770!t. Aixl tile Ijcgislature passed a license law? \'es.
.■'>77lO. ])id the candidates to whom you iiave referreil, profess to be in fa\our of a
liceu.se law 'I — Yes, we all knew tiiey were in favour of a license law.
■■(7711. Dut owing to tiie fact tiiat they were in accoi'danci! with the people's wishes
on otlier (piestions, they voted for them ? - - Y'es.
•">7712. AX'as no etl'ort made to elect a prohibition candidate? No. Those men had
both been members of the House before, and had ad\anced the principles that the people
wanted to have advanced, and so they voted for tliem.
3771-'^. And yet the weight of sentiii'.tMit in this direction w.as for prohibition? — I
do not think it was in this district.
37714. Would th(> town overrule tiie district ? — Yes, i think that the whcile dis
trict of Calgary is against prohii)ition.
3771-"). Are you able to speak personally of other districts, of the choice of can-
didates they made ? The same ditliculty pi'evailed in regard to other districts and for
similar reasons. There were other very important ina.'^ters ix'fore tiie people 'Our
people liavt} only enjoyed rejiresentative government tiies" last fe'v years, and all the
members had IjecMi in the House during that time with the (Xception of four oi' live.
377 I<). ]n the ca.se of tiie passage of a general ])rohibitory lasv, a law proliibiting
the manufacture, inii)ortiition and sale of intoxicating li(iut)rs for lieverage purposes, d"
you think it would be right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation fur
their loss of plant and maciiinery? — T have never considei d that (jucstion very much,
and I do not think it would make very much diH'erence : l)ut since? you have asked the
question to-day 1 ha\e liceii thinking of it, and my opinion is that it woulil be right that
couipen.sation should be made for sucli machinery as would be rendered truly useless.
37717. You understand that Ijy statute or by departmental regulations they are
obliged to provide certain kinds of machinery wliicli is lialile to be changed from time to
time, and that they are compelled to keep their spirits two or tliree years for rectifica-
tion pur])oses? — I know tliat.
37718. You think if a general prohibitory law was passed, they should be cum-
pensated 1 — Y'^es.
Ahthui! Siftov.
392
nti
' ii
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Ml had
1,. (li^
of C.Ul-
■111(1 tor
'Our
all thf
live,
lihitini,'
uses, il"
tioii till'
imiili.
^ki'il till'
gilt thill
eless.
hey iiif
tiuu'to
i-ectitua-
be cdin-
.'I'Tl!'. Wiiat is your (ij)iiii(iii (if the (.'iiiiimunity as uoiiipiii'tMl wiiii coiiiiiiunitii's in
other places ; is it a sohcr ami (iiii(rt one .' — It coniiiaivs well with eastern eoinnuinities.
Of eoui'se we have a ttoatini,' |io|iiilatii)n at times that is greater than they luuc in eastern
(•(imiiuinities of the same si/.e, hut our resident people will tiniipare favoiiralilv with
pe(ip|o in other communities,
'M'-O. It has hoeii stated that there have heen more casesof drunkenness since the
license law came into forcis l)Ut, taking all in ail, is any jiercentage of the peojile wlnt
drink and get drunk non-i'esideiit.s ! Some of them.
'M7'2\. Peojile who have just come into town .' Yes, iitit some of them have lieen
people who have Keen here some little time. in regard to that matter the Chief of
I'olice was asked tlu; ciuestioii, !ind he did not seem to know. We lo(>k(Ml over the Ijooks
this morning, and I found that since the license law came intooperation there have lieen I.'IO
arrests for all oirences. ( )f that iiumher 102 have lieen for di'unkenness. These have been
during the six months the law hasbeen inforce. l'"or the coirespoiuling six months before,
tliei'e were (iU arrests for all oU'enees and '■'>■'< were for cases of drunkenness or xiigrancy.
Jiy R<v. Dr. McLml :
'.Ml'l'l. Do you understand that the dill'ereiice in the number of arrests dining the
six months since the license law has been in oiieration and tlu^ six months jirecediiig
indicates a dillerence in the town owing to a change of the li(|Uor system .' I tiiink it
does, although I will not go so far as to say that it indicates tliat more people drink. It
indicates a diiVerence in the appeai'ance of the town, in the streets, because we had the
.same police forct^ during the (liferent period.s. I may explain that T think proliably ])art
of the reason would be that uikUu- the other system those selling li(|iior would exercise,
]ierhaps, a littlt^ more caution as t(j looking after men who got drunk and not letting
them go on the streets in a state of intoxication.
\\11'1'.\. You mean they kept them out of sight .' -That would account for part of
that at least.
'M~-\. < >ne hundred and two drunks are the figures. Of the other .'14 ca.ses,
ilo y(ni know whether any proportion of them were charged with oil'ences due directly or
indirectly to the drink trallic '.' -The greater proportion of them were houses of ill-fame.
.'iTTl.'."). They were not chai'ged with selling liipior, but with being disorderly .' Koi-
violation of the town by-law.
.■<772(). Are there many such jilaces in town ? — There are not at pi'eseiit. There
lia\(' been considerable tillbrts made lately to weed them out.
'■Ml'l'i. Then the number .'i 1 would not represent that iiuihIkm' of places? No.
."5771.'''^. So practically we understand that the VM't cases that came up iiefore the
l"iliee court during the la.st six months had more or less connection with the drink trade
and the drink habit ? — \'"e.s, with very few exceptions. During the other jieriod there
ui'ii' <iO arrests during the six months.
.'{772!t. Do you know if there were any, and if so. how many, habitual drinkers in
I he town? I do not think there are many.
.■i77.'}0. Of course tlie question might arise as to thedetinitio:. n :■ habitual drinker I
i am taking the records as they come before the Police Court.
;177.")1. < )f the IUl' cases of drunkenmvss, would very many be repeaters ? \'ery few.
•'i77.'52. Have tli'ire be many prosecutions for \iolatioii of the license law ?- No, I
ilii not think there have been man}' in the town since the law came into operation.
.'i77;5."5. Are we to understand that there have been no infractions of thi; law ? —
If viiu mean illicit sale by licen.sees, I do not think so, or at all events there have been
Mil prosecutions instituted.
•377.'5-t. Are you able to say, from your own observation, and from what you lia\c
luard, whethei' there have been infractions of the law by licensees ? — \ have been told
tliat there was .sale of li(|U()r during prohibited hours.
.■177."}"). Do you know why the officers did not prosecute the otl'enders / — IJecau.se it
v^as dilticult to get evidence.
.■i77.'lt). Did you find it difficult to get witnesses who would tell the truth ? — Yes.
'?77;?7. They all know the Inspector, and while he is around 1 suppose there are no
infiactiims of the law ; but he cannot watch I'l places all the time? — They all know iiim.
393
;|P
Liquor Tnittic — Xoith-wcst Territoii(!s.
rtT?.'!'"*. Do llu' tiiwii ntlicfi's (In anylliiti]!,' !<• riit'nrcf the law, i>v U lln' wlioli' tluty
left t<i tilt' lii.s|pcft()r ? It. liiis all Ijccii U-t'l to tlic Iiis|H'ctur. I do nut know that iIh'I'c
lia\(' lio»!ti any Mpeuinl iimtructioii.s, outside of what the law itself (Mnitaiiis, j^iveri to any
one.
;J77H!I. Have you reason to l)clie\e that, there is illicit sale by Jiersoiis not iiutlio-
rized to sell ? — I do not know that there is t(» any extent, exeept liy houses uf ill-fame.
■Ml \0. Are any licensed t(» sell li([Uor .' -No.
;i77ll. I'nder the old system, I mean that system of sellin;,' lii|uid refreshments
under licens((, was there r(>ason to helieve that li(|Uorwas sold fjctlyat that time,' -Yes.
;i771'_'. I mean intoxic.nts ?— (J|uit(! freely.
.■577l'i. Was no notice tal'en of it / N'ery little.
■■!77M. ^\'as ;iny sjtecial n>>tice taken of it hy the .Mounted Police ! — I do not
remendier any case of sellinj; which the .Mounted l'olic(! lirou<{ht dnrin;,' the lasr year or so
before the lieen.se law canu' into foi'i'e. Inre<,'ar(l to this matter 1 may say that my
opinion i:; that a hiw a^rainst sollinj^ which allows men to have li(|Uor in their |)0s.se8sion is
non-eiifiin Iliie anywhere, ;ind that so iony as they are allowed to have it in their jnwses-
sion it cannot he enforced.
■577ir). Tnen v<'U are not aware that
much (Hbi't was ma<le to enforce thi^ law
No. I ha\i' seen policenuui themselves yo
ajj;ainst .sellinj; tlui'inj; the last yeai' or .s(
in and drink.
.■{771t). And no prosecutions foUowed ?~Ycs.
.'57747. l)o you rej;ai'd that system as ji prohibition system? — No, T do not. I think
i\ was intended to be so wlien it was first introduced, but the j^rantini; of peruuts was
left optional with the Lieutenant-tiovernor, and the extent to which they ere granted
depended entirely upon tiie (Jovernor and on what his ideas were respec* he law, as
to whether the law, as a jirohibitory law, should be prohibitory or not.
.■5774s. It all amounted to this ]U'actically : that instead of iiaxin;; it . .id of Com-
missioners for till? Territories a])pointe(l to ;;rant jiernuts, the whole matter was left to
the control of the (iovernor, and he could ;;ra'.it ]iermits to whonisoevei' he chose ,'— Prac
tically that was the etl'eet of it in the lat(* years.
.'57749. J^oes your opinion concur with the opinion expressed by Commissioner
Heirhnier and lns|>ector Cuthbert, thiit the issue of permits made it so dillicult t(p
enforce the law that it was impossible to enforce the ]>rohibition part of the .Vet /-
Yes. I ha\e knt)wn of inst.inces where men have oi)taine(l pei'uiits regularly and trans-
ferred them to jyaities who were en;;a<(ed in the business of selling. J. was informed by
one man that he had j^ot a permit for five f,'allons almost every month, ami he hail
invariably sent it as he r(!ceived it to a man who wjis in the habit of sellini; liquor. He
would keep a bottle or so and i;i\'e the man the rest. I have known a number of casi's
of that kind where permits were issued in tluit way antl the stul)s secured him so loni;
as lie had not a lai-ger quantity in his jxisstission than was specified.
.'577oO. Speakini; about the last election of mend)ers to the Lcj;i.-,lature, was tiic
question of jiratiting pennit.s i¥(\'*(/.x prohibition the chief ipiesiion ni t!,.'!* election' I
do not think so.
.'577.")1. Was it a chief issue ! \ do not think so, certainly not in this district ami
not in ^Vlberta district. 1 may say in icgard to that matter that in the northern portion
of this disti'ict, in fact in the portion of the district referred to in the extract read hy
the Judge this niornitig, and also refei'red to by the writer as being a district in which
nine out of ten of the peoples were (b'inkcrs, a strong license man was elected.
.■5770L'. AVas he elected on that issue/ — No, he was elected for the same reason that
men are elected here.
3775.'5. Was it because the people were interested in the (juestion as tj whether a
license law should be enacted or not ; or was it V)ecause they were tired of the peiuiit
system ( — Tt was because the system as it had becMi carried out had made the law obsn-
lete, so that the generality of the people, even those who had been in favour of proiiibi-
tion, thouglit that if they could not have the law enforced, it would l)e nuich better tu
have alicen.se system, by which they would obtain some revenue from the trade and ha\i'
a certain amount of control over it.
Ahthur Sifton.
394
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
^{77"il. I)i) yi'ii tliiiik it was mit a (Iccision in t'iivuiii' of licciisf (lyiiiii.Hl pruliiliitioii
Imt (inr ill t'iivdur of iici'iisc ajiiiinst iiiifiit'iiiccd iiruliiliitiuii mid tlic pciiiiif system ?
— Y.-s.
.'177")."). Ilavi" ynu i<ii(i\vli'<ij,'c siitlicifiil In I'Xpicss an npinion as tu what wdiild liavo
Ih'cm till' result if a jileiiiscile liad lieeii taken in llie Nurtiiwest 'I'erritniies .' In tjm
district (»f Sa.-kalcliewan I think |ii'uhil>itiuii wciiild have carried liy a ciuisideralile ma-
jority, fii Assiiiiiioia the same result would ha\e hceii seen as in Saskatchewan, and in
Aliierta tho vote would lia\c lieen tlu' other way.
.'l77-")<i. .Stroii;;ly so ,' No, I do not, tliiiik so, takiiij,' the wlmie distiii' al toilet her.
/{i/ Jh(1<j<: .UrDoniihl :
■'577')7. The extract I read this mornin;,' does not refer to any jiarticiilar pari o.' t'.o
country .'-- Mr. Lucas said it was the section iu> went tlirou;,'ii.
.I|'I)i:k M('I><)NALI) re-read the extract from which lie had ipioted.
.■i77oS. Would he not |irolial)ly he correct as to the people the writei' met when
traveliiiij; > I think he was away out on that.
'Ml-'fU. Have you had any opjiortunily of kiiowiiij,' the opiidon of the people nf
Assinihoia?- I lived tliere two years and a half and travelled \eiy generally tlirouj;ii
the country on election canipaij;ns and similar matters.
•■177<iO. Who arelheir re|)resentati\es in the Legislature '. 1 could not say, I think
I hey ai'c all license men and ilrinkers.
•'i77tiL Canyon acciamt for ytiur statein'iit that in your opinion prohiliition wuuki
have lieeii carried on a piehiseite in Assiniiioi.i, when the people elected as their repre-
sentatives are drinkers and in favour of a license law?- Yes.
•■{77li'_'. How would you account for it ? It is on account of the people in those
Territories allowiiif,' their jiolitical prejudices to ovei'ride their opinion in rej,'ard to moral
(|uestioiis, and to \'ote accordin;; to their political prejudices, wilhout considerin;; theso
moral (pirstions. For instance, look at Manitoba at the last election.
'.\7 H')'.i. We will coiitine ourselves, if you please, to the Territories. That would
allord a reason.
.'i77()L Atthel.ist election the jieople of Saskatcliew;in who wi're fiiMnirahle to
pi'ohihition had a number of saloon men to \oice their sentiments on that and other
([uestions. Why did they not selectmen who would speak and vote in fa\'our of [iroliibi-
lion? — T think their action was very foolish, rnfortunately they diil not look upon the
i|uestion as I did, hut were led astray by political prejudices.
.'{770;"). For instance, weha\e a man here elected to a popular body who is in favour
of license, and at the same time we are told that three-foinih^ of tht^ |peopl" of the dis-
trict are in favour of iirohiliition .' — Yes, three-fourths of the people will say they are
satisfied with that man because he represents them well on evei'ythinj,' else.
;?77<i(). That state of thiiii;s would b(> (|uite correct in Alberta, because you say
that prohibition would not obtain a majority there and, therefore, such a man would
piiiperly repres(>nt the district, and it is only when we come to speak of Sask.itehewan
that the ditKculty oci-urs .'--There are two ditlerent members for .Saskali'hewan.
•■{77()7. 1 ilo not want to take them individually, but take them as a class. iJoes
I lie s.ime statement tliat ajiplies to Saskaichewan apply to Assiniboia also? — Yes.
•'177()1^. You have stated that you think the only wiiy to make prohibition a siu'cess
Would be to make it an offence to have liipior in possession '. Yes, nothing else would
<Im.
;i7769. Name to ine any country in the woi'kl that has such a law t — AN'e had such
.1 law here until the decision of the court was given.
•">7770. Do you know of any country in the world that has such a law ? — Yes,
•i7771. Where? — In parts of Calif irnia.
■'i7772. Name them ? — I'asadena r.nd Riverside.
•i777."{. Ts it an offence for a man to have licjuor in his jiossession there .'—Yes.
•>7774. Do you know any other country .' — Not where I have had personal experience.
•i777r). We has'e been told of one country where they have full pi'ohibition, and
that is the Fiji Islands : have vou any knowledge in regard to prohibition there ? — Per-
sonally I have not.
395
I 'i
1
1
f
i
llj
li
:.:i}li!';
li
Km:
m
Licjuor TrtiHic — Xorlii-west Territories.
.")777<i. Iliuc yuu litul iuiy exporifKot' in tlie workiiif; of the Maine law ? — No.
;{7777. I'lidcr the Maim; law tlic people aic allowed to have what li(juor they wisli
for tlieir own eonsuinptioii, hut hartei- and saK; are not allowed ? -We had one instance
ot'aetual prohihition, and that was during the building of tiie Canadian Pacific Kail.vay
in the oai'ly I'iiys of Manitoha.
.■{777s. Js Mr. Sift on, the contractor, any relation of yours? — Father.
;}777i>. ])() you concui' in what ho said ' -f liaxe not heard the evidence, hut T do
most heartily.
.'i77''^l). His e\i<lence was that it was strict prohibition ?— Indeed.
;i77>'l. I la\(' you personal knowledge of i'asadena and Hiversitle .' — 1 have more
of Pasnilena than the other, my knowledge of Hiverside is chielly from hear.say.
■^'7f^'2. Are you able to say that no liipioi' is brought into that community? — No,
1 could not say so.
.■<778.'{. Have yuu resided at Pasadena.' — Yes. \'\v practical purpo.«es there was
prohiljition there. Tlierf wei'c three men who were in Riverside a day, and t'lt'V told
me tliey could not get a diink in the lown for there %\as no liijuor for sale, liiverside
h.is a population of 5,000.
Jhj A'er. Dr. ifcLcod :
:?77l^l. l>o you think that was an interfei-encc with the jx'i'sonal liberties of those
men .' - ( )ne thought so, but the other two thought prohibition was t'arried out I'orrecth
— in fact one was a man who had j)re\iously li\ed in the North-west Territories. The\-
also said that if'pi'oliibition could be v.-orked that way in the Territories, they woukl be
in favour of pi'ohib-ti'^n.
Hi) Judge McDonald:
.■?77J:*5. How laigc a place is I'asadena.' About 10,000 people.
:>77S(). Ts the sunounding country settled '. Yes, thickly settled.
•'"7787 Js it near a town .' -Yes, near IjOS Ange.is, which is ten miles awav.
.■)77>'^. is there sale of li(|uor at Los Angelos ,' 'S'es, perfectly free.
.■(778!). What is the neai-est point at whieh li(|uor can be obtained outside of
Pasadena f — l^os Angelos 's probably the neai'e^t.
.■177!H). You say it is ten miles away .' — Yes.
■■>77'.M. There are no restauiants or saloons nearer .' I do ui,* think there are, cer-
taiidy not to any extent, and thei-e is communication every half Irio' witii Los Angelos.
■'{77'Jl!. -Did you, on the oecasion to winch you referi't'd when vou received informa-
tion as to the transit' ■ of permits, make representation to the prosier ollicials when tlH>i
otlences wei'" C'.nnnitted .' No.
n>l Rrr. Dr. Mrl.rnd :
.'<77ii'5. I >o you know whether tiie ])eopl(> of I'asadena. were unanimously in fa\oui
of pi'ohibition, or were there some opjiosed to it .' —There was a small minority o|)]iosed to
it, but probably moie than one-half of tiie people were in favour of it aiul the large pro
perty owners were all in fa\ our of it.
.'(771)1. Was it an interference with the p( I'sonal liberties of the people cif i'asadeiiM
that they were not allowed to get drink .' It ^^•as not, because they could get it freel\
bv going outside the town.
•■i77'.l5. Was it c|uite within the right of the peo])le of P.isadena to enact proliiljitinii
for the town f — Yes.
377!)<>. Coming back to these Territories, did not you name some place where tli'
people elected a candidate who was a prohibitionist while the majority of tli
were anti-pi'ohibitionists ? Yes.
;i771)7. Ca
i"
771)/. Can you account tor the people so forgetting thi'inse'ves as to eli'ct a prnln
bitionist in that i)lac(!? -1 think it occurred for the reason that they were salistieil wiih
the generul course of tontluctof our reprcsiMitiitive, who liad been our representative for
sevei
and lie had ■^atislied us in other matters.
AUTIIII! SilTOX.
.396
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
:i77ns. S]iciiUiiiL; iiliout .Mr. Pike"s stiiteniiMit almut iiiiii' out ut' t'li | pic in tlui
district (Irinkiiijf, wliat lia\t' you to say al)out tliat ?— -It is absurd tor a man travelling
tlirou,i,di tiu'fouutry and wlio does not know tlie jieoplc, to niako that L'tatenitMit, because
ot' course, he would meet \ery little with the general run of the people.
•"iTTDO. !)o you think that nine tentlis of the people lie met were driuklrii,' people /
— I think so proljably.
.'i7<*<U0. And you think he would frame his opinion in that way .'—Yes. ( 'f course,
a fjreat de/d deix-nds on a man's own habits. I am not in the liabit of itrinking' even in
moderation, aiui T would not come into contact with drinkin;; men : whereas if a man
drinks, he is liable to come into I'ontact with drinking mon when he is tra\elling.
Jii/ Judge McDonnld:
.')7S01. ,\nd when he is not travelliui;, too ^--Yes.
.>7>>0l.'. AVhat is the name of tliedistrict that sent a prohibit ionist representative! —
Ivhnonton.
.■?7)^03. C^an you, from your own knowl<>di;(% say tliat the majority of the people thei'e
were in fa\()ur of license .' — Not from my i. n knowled}.'e, only from hearsay and the
general tenor of records in regard to that part of tiie country.
By Rci\ Dr. Mr hod:
37S04. Do you arrive at that estimate from the e.vperience of other people '.' -Yes,
from many peoph;.
By Jitdye McDomdd :
.■<7S0"». You think the people voted for a candidate who would sui)poi't tht^ licenst^
law, because he was the man of their I'lioice in I'egard to other mattei's .' That is the
c.xjilanalion I can give.
ire. cer-
ingelos.
nfori'ia
•\\ the:'
n ta\oui
ised to
,,'oe )irn
'■isadi'iia
it freelv
ihibitioii
a prolii
led with
alive foi'
A. U()8S CUTHI'.EIIT recalled.
.■i7<SUt). ill regaril to coiividious miule last year, 1 desiretosay that Mi'. Siftoiujoi's
not appear to \u^ aware that convictions were made foi' selling. There weri' twelve
i-,.!!\ictions dui'ing the year. in regai'tl to meud)ers of the jiolice force not secu.ing
cases beciiuse they were all known to the saloon-keepers, I may say that when an otlicer
went into a saloon and asked for a drink, he wouhl be told that there was no li(|Uoi' in
the place, and, of coui'se, iu' could not inform. In regard to cases of tliat kind, men
ire '^i nt from another place to endeavour to secure evidence on which to lay an infomia-
tiiiu. Last year then; were I wel\i^ conxictions, under the statute, for selling.
By Jiidye McDonnld :
• i7f<U7. l)o thi! otlicers go in plain clotiies ' — Yes.
•"i7)^U8. That was the rule '. Yes, before the liciMise h; 'stem iranie in. In I'egard to
iiinviction of Indians and Half-breeds found in possession of drink, there lia\(' been,
^iiue the license law came in and during the last six months, twenty convictions, while
tor the same period last year there w<'re none.
By Hev. Dr. McLrod:
^i7i'*0!). Were all or any of these convictions those of persons wiio li;id licenses to
sell li(piid refreshments; All of them,
•■S7S1(J. in r-egard to the sale to Half-breeds ami Indians to which you have referred,
■lo yoti tind it necessary to take e.xtra precautions in order to protect the Indians since
i!ie adoption of the license system ? A'es, If there is any large body of ln<lians in the
lown we have to watch them nighl and day, because the Jlalf-breeds are lirdjle to sell
thi'Mi li((Uor. The lialf-breeds can buv liijuor. and thev sell it to the Indians.
397
W i
Liquor TiafTic — Nortli-west Teiritorios.
By Judge McDonald :
.'{7811. Have the cuiivictions hccii iill Indians or Half-breeds? — Half-breeds.
li;l R>'r. Dr.' Mc Lead:
.'$7812. Were tlK'se twelve j)tM'sons conviet(>d ? -Tlic niajoi-ity were. Of the other
cases the evidence was not surtieient to secure conviction, U'cause tlie j)ai'ties swore
that they iiad not .sold li(|Uor. The cfises had to be dismissed on account of lack of
evidenci'. Some cases were ippealed. some sustained and some <|uasiied.
■ \
iti-
1 ■
J(,)HN H. COSTKrAN, of Caigaiy, on l)eing duly swoi'n, deposed as follows : —
By Judge McDonald :
.'V/813. Do you hold any official position ? — I am Crown Prosecutor iov the Dominion
Government for the district of Alljerta.
.'{7811. How long have yon resided in the Tei'ritori(,>s ? Since the eivrly jiai't of the
sununer of I88."{.
;?78ir). Have you l)een in Calgary all that time !- Yes.
.■5781(). Then you liave seen the workii.^; of the jtermit system and also of the
license system since it came int(» force. Speaking as a citi/eii, which is found to be tlir
more satisfactory ,' -The license system, by all means.
.'57817. What were the (litliculties connected with the permit or prohibitory sys-
tem? — The jirineipal ditheulty was, I think, that popular sentiment was op])osed to it.
as it was \ery dithcult to enforce, and it was very ditlieult to get information in order
to institute prosecutions.
.'57818. What had you to ilo with the law otHcially ?~-I had the jjrosecution of all
cases <if offences against the ]>rohibitory clauses of the North-west Act.
."5781!). ^^'hen the Xoi-th-west Mounted Police secui'ed a case they would call mi
Vou as prosecuting counsel, I supj)ose ? Yes.
.'^7'^'JO. Did you find that nuich smuggling went on during that ]iei'i(id? — Yes.
.'57821. Were then' any illicit stills? Yes, .some three or four.
.■?782'2. Were tlure any cases wliere per.s^tis used the permits fiiuidulently ? Yes,
to a very great extent.
.■5782."5. Was there more liipior snniggled in than was brought ia under the peniiii
system proper l ' )nly a \v\y small percentage came in under permit, as permitted lii|U"r.
.'57824. ^\'a^ a large ipiantity smuggleii in without permit .' — Yes.
.'5782."). Had you anything to do with eases connected with the examination of
packages in wliieh liquor was found : were you called ujion otHcially to deal with tliosi'
eases? — 1 have had to cause examinations to be made and analy.ses to be madeof li(juoi--
in order to decide wlint they were.
.'5782(1. Have you, in cases in which analyses wei'c- made, found (hat liipioi's were
brouglit in under other names, whereas the liquors were really intoxicating litpiors?— -Yes.
.'57827. Of what were those liquors coniposed ? — I have known liquids brought in
marked Cologne which wwc practically alcohol.
.'57828. Do you know anything about tiie sf)-called four per cent beer .system, aiul
have you heard of spirituous liquors being bi ought in in barrels marked beer! — 1 have
heard .so.
.'5782'.). Did you tlnd that licpiors were sent in, contained in liarrels, addressed in
ctmsignees, men from whose |)osition you would not suspect that they would obtain
liiiuor ? —There were many instances of that.
.'578.'50. Ami the yoods were never obtained by the persons to wliom tliey were sup
j)ose<l to be sent ?— Yes. My experience? of the permit system was tliat permits wen'
only issued where tlie peo])le ecmld iHina fide state that they oidy required a small
A. l<o.s,s Cutiiukut.
398
!M!
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liciuor.
iimtitm i>t'
ilh tliox-
(if luiuiii-
ii's? — Yos.
jroufjl't '"
y-stem, iiii'l
Idrcssctl I"
lUl obtain
weiv sup
nuilH wt'iv
(juantity of liquor, and tliey wc-'c not issued to dealers in litjuor, at all events up
to a recent date. .My experience has been that li(|Uor was only granted in small (pian-
tities, from two to five "gallons, and that smugjiling operations covei'ed •")(•, 7U and even
200 j,'allons of liipior.
;$7f<;fl. Have you had any experience of liquor brought across the boundary from
the Unitetl States? — No.
.'?7H.'<2. From your experience do you think a general ]prohibitory law would be
practicable of tlu>rough enforcement in these Territories .' — I do not think so. I belie\e
tiiat tlie sale of liquor could be proiiibited to a certain extent, but T do not think it
would be advisable to do so.
.■{7('<."5-'5. What has been your experience in regard to evidence given in liiiuor cases?
— It has been very dilHcult to get proper evidence.
.'<78;{4. Do you find that a large amount of perjury prevails in connection with cases
of that kind, more so than in cases of .tny other kind? — I have never had to prosecute
for perjury in cases of that kind, but I do know that it is very dillicult to obtain wit-
nesses nho are prepared to say that they have seen liquor sold : as a matter of fact I
have m} "elf known at the time that the witui'sses were a\\are of tiie truth of the charge.
.■{7c'^-S5. Were those witnesses called sinqily because thev were pei'sons who saw the
sale '?— Yes.
:{7S.S(). They wei'e not persons who were drinking themselves ? — They might have
been taking a glass tliemselves, but no charge was laid against them.
.■578."?7. Y'^ou mean they weo simply spectators? — Yes, as regards tin' jiarticulai'
• •rt'ence charged. For instance : A saloon-keeper is charged with selling liquor to John
Smith. .John Brown may have been sitting in the room and may liave been a witness
to the act of .selling, yet you j)rni)ably would not be able to get anything out of him in
the sliape of evidence. His memory would be found to be remarkably defective.
.'!78."iS. In case of the enactment of a general i)rohibitory law, a law to prohibit the
manufacture, inqiortation and sale of alcoholic lii|Uors for beverage purposes, do you
ti.ink it would be riglit that brewers and distillers should be conqiensated for their loss
of jiiant.' — I should say so, at least for any ])lant they may have had on hand l)y reason
of tiie (io\ernment's demands and which, probably, if thosed;Mnand'- iiad not i)een made,
udilld not ha\t' been on the ]iremises. If a man goe nd estalilishes a legitimate trade
and obeys the tiovernment's demands and fultils .ill the euiidit ions wliieli the (Jo\ern-
inent inq>ost> and suddenly his i)usiness is abolished and his plant rendi red useless, 1 do
not see why he should not be jiaiil for the injury done.
•"i78.'V.t. it has been suggested that changes are maile in the iradi jioliey wliiel re-
duee the \alue of stocks materially. ]s there not a ditlerence in regain lo the passage
lit ,1 general proiiii)itory law and such taritl'ehanges .' Taiili'ehange woidd not be a dis-
liniti\i' enactment which would stop a mail's business ?-F,xact ly.
;'7S40, Therefore, you think remuni'ration should be gi\eii him ?— lOxactly.
•'^rsn. Are there any amendments to the license law wliicii you cituld suggest from
your expeiience ? -I do not kno'v of any amendments. 1 think there sliouM lie some
liro\ision made as to looking after the strict enfore(Miient of it. .\s it is at presi'iit its
enforcement is conHned to one man, and he can h/udly be ('xjiected to look after all tin
"ork himself. Saloons are not in .lie same jio^ition as hotels.
•■)7S42. Taking tiie saloon bar and the iiotei bar: if one or the other hid !•• lie
idiojisiied, which had better go I -I do not know. I know a great many men \\hi>\vuuld
gn to iiotels, which afford niore facilities for drinking than saloons do.
•")7''<l.'i. If a man goe.". into a saloon he is quite awaic that evei'v one knows for
what purpose he is going. If, however, a man goes to a hotel, it does not necessarily
tiillow that he goes tiiere for a drink ? In that way I hold that the lioti'l bar is a greater
itidueeUKMtt to drink than the saloon bar. Of course there is a great deal to be said on
I lie other side. Taking all in all, if one had to go, the .saloon bar should go.
•'>7(S14. It has been argued that as legards an hotel bar the ])ublic are going in and
• Hit and that constantly aflbrils a certain measure of supervision which does not exist as
legards the saloon f — Exactly.
■i7Sl."). In a saloon es'erything i.s more closed u])? — Yes, and they liaxc back doors
by uhich a niiui may enter and not be seen going in or out.
399
ilii
m
11
»
! ::
iillf!
Li(iiior Traffic — North-west Territories.
Jli/ Rr,: Dr. MeUod:
.■{7s K). I uiulcrHtaiid it wiis your <luty to ivjircsciit ;ill Crown cases of vitilation ot'
the old proliihitory law I- -After a cei'tain date I receised s]ieeified instriK'tioiis to attend
to all cases. ' was a]ipointed Crown j)roseuutor in the fall of iSiS"), or the be^'iiiniiij^ of
IXSC). Kof some time I did not consider it my (hitv to a|i])ear in those '-ases which wei'c
under the Dominion Act, and 1 did not receive specified instructions to appeal' until some
time afterwards.
.■>7J^17. l>id you know liijuor was sold illegally in Calgary i)efore tlu; lici'iisi system
came into o])cration under the style of refrcshni'-nts ? Certainly.
.■(7S1S. |)id you prosecute tlie parties ,' -Not until it was hroughl to my notice and
an infoiination laid.
.S7i^4y. A fui'mal cliarge was made and then you took diarize of the case? — Yes.
.'?7S-")0. \\'ei-e there many cases of violation charged /-A great many.
;?7f<-")l. i suppose they were all prosecuted and then penalties were imposed ?---Yes.
^lost of the cases were appealed, liowever, 9'.) out of a 100.
:)7>'-">-. What was the result .' A great many of the cases wcire (juashed.
.■l7'"^-'>''i. I tiiink you have said that permits were issued for quantities varying from
two to five gallons f -Two gallons was the rule.
.■<7Sr)4. You nevei' saw permits issued for 20, iO and 60 gallons of whisky 1 — No.
.•578.*).-). Norf(.r 10 gallons ?— No.
.S7S.-)(). If a general proliihitory law were adopted, do you think benefit would result
from it? — Outside of the (juestion of I'evenue I think it would he a benefit.
;i7857. Thei-e would then be the ((uestion of revenue? — Yes, that is an objection.
>■;
MILTON WILLTAM8, of Gleichen, farmer, on being duly sworn, deposed a
lows :
By Judge McDonald :
.S78.58. You live in the District of Alberta, I believe ?-
-Y.
li78J)!). How long have you resided in the North-west Territories? — Ten and one-halt
years.
.'<78G0. Did you come from one of the other provinces? — Yes, from Ontario.
.'{7861. Which County? -From Cardwell in the County of Crenville.
.'57862. What year did you leave there?— In 1882.
.'i786.'{. The license law was in force there? — Yes.
Jii/ Ker. Dr. McLeod:
."57864. Your occupation is that of a farmer. I understaiul ? - Yes.
^786"). Do you know anything about, and if so will you state brietly your ol'>er\ai ion
of, the permit system .' — I can only sjieak from hearsay. I have never had a |)ermit myself.
r have known men who had permits. It was not at ail ditlicult togi't them.
.'5786(). Have you been a farmcM' ever since you came to this part of the country I -
Yes.
.'57867. Idave you lived constantly in the same place? — No, not all the time.
.'57868. In what other pait of the disti'ict have you lived? — T lived in the same di-'-
trict all the time but not on the same farm.
.'578()!t. Have you always open ted a fai ni yourself oi' ha\e yuu been employed liv
some other farnu'r? I iiave been tMuployed by some otiier fanner.
.■57870. How many years have you had a fai'm of your own? — Six year.s.
.'57871. Have you had an opportunity of getting inside knowledge of the li(|Uni'
business as it was carried on then? — Y'^es.
•'57872. What opportunity had you? — My nearest neighbour was wh;it has liecn
called here a whisky smuggler.
John H. Costiuan.
400
57 Victoria-
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Ut
He
;iii<l
lie was
•'i7i^7-'). Did lie carry on business regularly? — Yes, for some years.
•'17874. Did he wirry it on secretly or was he detected ]— Yes, it was done .secretly,
hut he never was chitected. Although the Mounted Police were round and information
was laid against him yet he e.seaped.
•">787r). I>id yt>u make a comj)laint ? — Yes,
;5787fi. Did he smuggle large ([uantities?- -Yes : sometimes large and sometimes
small.
•■)7S77. How large do you think, 50 or 100 gallons ? — An liigh ius 200.
.■{787^. Where did he bring it from? — He brought it sometimes from across
line and also from Manitoba, and di.<))f)sed of it in Calgary.
37879. Do you think the |)oli('e knew that he smuggled I- I think they did.
.■?7880. !)() you know whether he continues it now ? He has given it up.
.H7881. Did he give it up before the license law came into operation.' — Yes.
was afraid of being caught.
.■{788J. Did the introduction of the four per cent beer system in liS81(, interfere
with his operations ? — No, I do not think it did.
:{788.{. Do you know any other smugglers than that one man .' — Yes, I knew several
more.
IJ7884. Were they e(|ually skilful in escaping the police? Some were and some
were not.
.■?788r). D(» you know of any parties escaping because they tipped the police/ — ^I
heard that in some cases they tipped the police.
.■i788t). Have you reason to believe those statements?-- Yes.
.■?7887. Was thei'e much drinking in the section in v/hich you lived?- No.
.■)7888. If a pei-son wanted drink could lie get it? — No, not outside of the town
y>// Judgp McDonald :
37889. Did the whisky smuggler tell you why he gave it up ? — Ht
tired of it.
37890. Was he a disreputable man himself? — No, not as regards drinking
37891. Was he extravagant in his habits f — In some ways lie was.
37892. Did he not make money in the Viusiness / — No, not much.
.")789."). Did you ever remonstrate with him about it? — Yes.
37894. What did he say ? -He said he was all right to do ,so so long as he
caught.
3789.">. What kind of men were tin- others who were engaged in the I
( >stensibly they were farmers.
.'>789(). Where did they sell theii' liquor?- In Calgary.
■">7897. Did they liriiig the lii[uors in by wagons? — Yes.
•S7898. Was the railway used after it was built? Yes.
37899. in wh.it way was Iii|uiii' concealed? — IndifTerent ways : they would liavea
small cask in a hai'ri'l of oats. Sometimes a keg of whisky would bt
liarrel of beer.
37900. Was it exci' bi'ought in iii.Ked up with ginger beer or anything of lliat
kind? I could not say.
37901. In vour part of the country the people were not given much to (IrJMkiiig?
Xo.
37902. Was it a temperance community generally ? Yes.
37903. Was any of the licpior brought in by permit by these men '. Yes.
37904. Had tho.se men hiding places in which they would hide the liquor .' — Ye.s.
Tile man neai- where T was liad a place on a neighboui''s farm many miles away and had
.1 i-aelie on his own farm.
By liev. Dr. McLeod :
37i)0r). Having lived ill this country a considerable time and having observed the
iriliiii; it! the rural districts, have you any opinion about prohibition, as to whether it is
piacticable or not? If .so, what are your views-? I think outside of Calgary, the senti-
iiHiit of the people in the Territories would be in favour of prohibition.
401
21—26**
was not
lusiness?
> laced
placed msKli
le of
Uli
li;.
i:i|i
r
ft..,
im
.ill
tii
^t
Ijiquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
.■$790<). Do you think it could he enforced J — Yes, with tlie lij^lit orticials.
.'57907. Since the (juestion has hetsn asked otliei's, T should like to ask you the ques-
tion : suppose ii ])rohil)itory lasv were enacted, would you tiiink it right that l)rewers
and distillers should be compensated? — Yes, T think they should be, as the law re(|uired
them to obtain and keep certain machinery.
.S7yOS. Do you think the matter of compensation might go further and take in
]ieople in the trade who suffer loss? - 1 never thought of thai part of the ijuestion.
A. ROSS CVTWBFAiT recalled.
Bij Hei: Dr. McLeod :
.'i790!). We have had it in evidence several times that when applications were made for
jiermits the (Jovernor referi'ed them to Membei's of the fjcgislative Assembly and to
members of the ^Mounted Police at IJegina. Was it customary to refer permits to police
oflicei-s elsewhere! — During tlie last few years of the sy.stem the police, through their
orticer.s, had complained that they were called upon very often to search places on sus-
picion tiiat li(|U(tr was being di'ank illegally, and then upon examining tlu; li(iuor supply
it was found to be covered by j)ermit. The system was then established, that in futui'e
applications for permits and it had also been shown that bad use had been made of the
permits~-were to be rt^ferrod to the officer commanding tlie district from which the ap-
plication came. Latterly that was done. Ap])lications were sul)milted to the otHcers
or othcer and he gave his opini(jn as to what use would be made of the liquor wluMi it
came in by permit.
."57910. If he reported that it would be unwise to issue that permit, was his i-eport
always acted on, or were permits sometimes issue<l overriding the rejiort ? I know of one
case where an application was made for l!0 gallons of li(|uor and the opinion entertained
was that the li(|Uor was for .sale in fact it was known that it was for sale. Nev(>rtlii'
less, the j)ermit w.-is granted and renewed in a few days, and the otlieer had repoi-ted
that the liijuor was f(jr sale.
]hj Jiidge JfcDonaf'l :
.'57911. Do you know whether, in the case you speak of, members of the
Legislature joined in recommending the .applicant ! 1 do not know the i'eas(»n that thr
permit was grante<l after having been reported against. There must have beeti some good
reason, and the granting of it nmst have been recommended by some one in authority.
Witness at a subse(|uent stage of the proceedings submitted the following supple-
mentary statement :
To The lioyal Conmiission on the Liquor Question.
Gkxtli;mi;n.
37912. A few points which were not touched ujion in my e.xamination on the 7th iiist.
1 Jim ])leased to avail myself of the opportunity kindly given me to speak of, and tlm-
amplify my testimony.
The (|uestion of po.ssible bribery of the North-west [Mounted Police in connectinii
with the non-enforcement of the liquor laws previt)us to the coming in force of the
License Ordinance of 1892, having been raised in Calgary, it would seem not unnecessary
that I should add to my e\ idence already given on that point. No case of such an
attenq)t has ever come uniler my per.sonal notice as having been successful, but tlusre i^
no doubt that strenuous ellbrts in this direction lave often been made, antl it is possible
that in a few isolated cases such atteripts should succeed, partially resulting perhaps from
a laxity on the part of ji man entrusted with the supervision of certain work.
Notwithstanding the great care exercised in the selection of men for enlistment in tlif
Northwest Mounted Police it is to be expecte<l that a small proportion may be men who
MiLTOX WlLLIA,M.S.
402
57 VictxDria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
would nut lj« as zculous in tho carrying out of tlie alsvaystlisagreciible duty of tlie enforce-
ment of the li(|uor laws as the majority of the men entrusted with the duty have
shown themselves to be. In a place like Calgary, it would not be astonishing if cases of
over temjitation did occur, but in an experience extending over some yeni-s 1 have still
to be made aware of such a case. My reasons for admitting the possibility of such an
occurrence are the almost super-human efforts made by the illicit traders to compass
tlieir ends. In many cases of infraction of the li(|Uor laws brought l)cfore me, threats
would be made by the accused that the prosecution of them by the constable who had
been the means of discovery of the attempt w(juld result in damaging accusations being
made against him for past or present laxity. Althougli prosecutions in those as in other
■cases were pushed U> a successful conviction, no such neglect of duty of our nuMi ever
ti'anspired. Tln! I)est proof of non-success at bribery by liquor <lealers is the almost
universal hatred they bear to oui' men. As a matter of opinion, it is my belief that if
.such neglect of duty ever occurred it would at once ha\o been known.
One of the men placed in the town of Calgary for duty and to prevent liquor coming
in by ti'ain told Uie that on one occasion he had been offered .i^fjOCOO " to go on pa.ss "
for tiiree days.
In reference to the question of convictions by North-west Mounted Police, .Justices
of the Peace, for "selling," rersiix convictions for "having in possession"' : on examina-
tion of the minutes of cases in 1891, iti which convictions had been made against a
ninnber of saloon and hotel-keepers of Calgary for "stilling", I find that in those
cases whei-e the ai)peal procedure had been irregular the convictions were maintaincid by tiie
court. Ill those cases which went to appeal on the merits tho convictions were t|uaslied.
This would go to show that it was not easi(^r to have " convictions for selling " maintained
tiian it was to have tho.se "for having in possession." In my experience it was as difficult
in one case as in tlui other, due I suppose to the possibility of dilFerent inteiprtstations of
tile law, and apjiriiciation of evidence. The (|uestion of the consetjuences of tlie esta-
tjlisliiueiit of canteens at North-west ]\U)unted Police jiosts is also (»ne that has been
f.iiscd. \n giving evidence on this subject, it mast l)e borne in inind that at the time of
the establishment of these canteens it was more or less easy for men so inclined to
procure malt or spirituous liipiors, the latter in many cases being vile stuff. This led
naturally to many evil results, which it is not necessary for me to enter upon. It was
llioiigiit best to establish canteens wherci good malt li(|Uors could \)v obtained at a
irasonabUf ))riee, as well as ail articles likely to be recjuh'cd by tlie men and which were
iisiially purchased at rttail stores at high ])rices. The system in my ex[)erience is a good
'iiie, and has had good results from the point of view of discipline and benetits accruing
to the men. In the former it is found there is less time siient by the men in town where
it was sometimes ea.sy to get into trouble. Their evenings for the most part are spi-nt
ill the canteen, where ainusemeiits of various kinds are provided with the {irotits acc'i'uing
to the men themselv(!S by their ]iatronage of these canteens.
.V small proiit is made, notwithstanding that articles are sold more cheaply'thaii by
retail dealers. The sujiplies are sometimes purcliased from local dealers as in ('alg.iry
-at wholesale jirices and tiadesmeii have no cause of comjilaint of tin; witluliiiwal of
tliis patronage. A non-commissioned ollici'r is always ]>reseiit wht>n the (;aiiteen is
open (luring certain I'.jurs of the day, and he is, responsible for orderly behaviour of tho men
and that no man drinks be(>r to excess. It in ,• be looked upon as c(»rtain that a man
will) wishes to drink will do so if the iiqucv .in be had, and under the permit system it
<iiui(l generally be had ; this man oi i; . iv of men would obtain licpior of one kind or
.iimtlier an (ing their civilian acquaintaiices and would occasionally get into mischief
tVoiii this jause. The beer t<» be oiitainei! iii the canteens .satisfied this want, and the
l»iii])tation to drink to excess, as was the case wh,,n a feeling existed that Ii(|uor being
ill possession lias to be niad(> the most of, has ijeen removed.
(iiven the possibility of obtaining liquor in these Territoiies and it is my experience,
as it must be that of other ollicers in the force, that canteens j>i'operly ('onducted are a
blessing to North-west Mounted Police posts.
Were prohibititm unixersal, of course canteens in so far as the sale of malt liquors
is concerned would be an unnece.s.sary evil, for their existence would become an evil.
I hit under the penuit systeuj it was necessary, and more so undei' the license .system.
403
•)]— 26.^**
E
1
i ■
:'
!
Liquoi' Trattic — North-west Territoiies.
I Iiave u''* t'ouml tlmt tlio sale nf Immu- in hiirraeks has increas<'d the miinljer of the
men who di-ink it to any a|)(ireeial)le extent. And tliose who do not drink it benefit
from the profits of its sale like those who do and to the same extent, these proKts being
devoted to the messes pro rata.
I have the honor to be, "gentlemen,
Your obedient servant,
A. KOSSCUTHBEirr.
• Iiispivlar X. W. M. I'. CoiiiHKDiifini/ E. Drrlsioit^ ( 'n/i/ari/.
2
»
(tEORGE marsh, of Calijary, real estate agent, on lieing duly sworn, dijiosed as
follows : -
Bi/ Judge McDonald:
;37913. How long have you resided in Calgary ? - Since September, 1883.
37914. Have you resided anywhere else in the Territories except hei'e ? - Yes, I was
railway agent foi' the Canadian Pacific Railway from Wolseley to this point.
.371)15. How large a district was that '? About 000 miles.
.37910. Were you ti-a veiling agent ? Sometimes.
37917. Did you come here from ime of the otliei' provinces?--! came from the
L'nited States to Canada.
37918. What part of the L'nited States ? -DiH'erent parts. I was a railway man.
37919. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law anywhere else than in
the Territories ? No.
.379l'0. Then you have seen the Territories under the permit sy.stem 1- Yes.
37921. Ami, since the 1st of May, they have been under license? — Y'es.
37922. AVhich is the piefeiable system / — The present .system.
37923. How ditl you find the permit system work : was there much liquoi' iii the
country ?-~T))"re was (juite as mucli, if not more than there is now.
.37924. You have spoken of having been a railway agent, and as such you would
have a gi't^at deal to do with the cars that came in I — Y''es.
3792."). Have you reason to believe that licpior was brought in in freight car.s'?-- Yes.
.37920. In what shape ?- In every conceivable way, in packages of merchandise,
barrels of flour, sugar, oatmeal, boxes of coffee, barrels of salt and in every way.
37927. We liad the evidence of a witness at Prince Albert that liquor was brought
in on the railway, contained in tinware made in the shape of boxes and marked so as to
indicate that they were Bibles? I never saw them. I have known liquor to be con^
tained in five-gallon cans representing coal oil.
•37928. AV'ere such packages seized? Scjmetimes.
37929. Do you think the greater part of the packages got through or were they
seized?- That is pretty hard to .say ; I should say the greater part got through. At all
events that is my opinion from wliat I heard.
379.30. Do you know anytl.ing about the use of pain-killer and .such compounds I
T have never seen any of that seized and destroyed, although I have seen it drunk around
town.
37931. What else ha\e you seen drunk ? — Red ink, also [)ain-killer, ginger, Florida
water, all sorts o'' scents and eau de Cologne.
379.32. Were those used in different localities in the Territories? — In the town ot
Calgary.
379.33. You have not .seen them drunk anywhere else? — Nb.
37934. When was that".'— In the winter of 1883 84.
379.35. We have been told tliat during the last two years liquor has been sold
openly in this town ? — Yes.
.37930. Was there no sale at the time red ink was used?— Yes.
A. Ross CUTIIUKHT.
404
I :■
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■{"'.••">7. How. tlieii, ciiii yciu iici-ouiit for the iiso of rod ink .' Whisky coulil l)e
.seeurtul more or less iit that time ; soiiit'tiiiics there was ph'iity of it and at other times
tliere was ahnost a famine. Wlien there was famine tlie men would use anythinj; they
could get.
.■J79.'^8. Do you know anything as to the price of li(|Uor in those days ! -Y'es. I
have paid as high as .^1.00 for three drinks ; that was aliout the price. .Sometimes it
would he as low as .")0 cents a drink, hut not lower than tiiat.
;t7i1.'{9. I suj)pos(' you are not a total ahstainer '.' No.
.'57940. \rv you favourjible to i)rohibition .' \'es, pro\ided tliei'c was {)rohil)ition.
;57!*41. That is prohihition enforced ? — If the manufacture was stopped altogether.
."57942. l-)o you liope for a prohibitory law enforced '.' I should like to see it, but
there would be too much time wasted at present in endeavouring to enforce it.
;5794.'5. Suppose such a law were passed, do you think it could be enforced ,' — Yes, if
the manufacture could be stopped on the continent, but not otherwise.
37944. Do you mean the manufacture by distillers oi' anybody / Yes, anybody
manufacturing.
."5794."). Do you hope to bring about that state of things '. — I ha\e not considered it
much.
.■57940. You do not consider that to be j)racticable. [ sujjpose .' — X(j, I Ihiidt it absui'd.
.'57947. In case of the enactment of such a law, would you favour the payment of com-
]iensatioii to brewers and distillers for their loss of plant and machinery i — Y'es.
.'57948. Are there any provisions of thelii-ense law that you, as a citizen, would
amend ? -Jjft everybody sell liijuor who wants : but niake tliem pay a high license.
;(7949. Are you favourable to prohibiting sale on Sunday / N'o.
.">79.*>0. Y'ou would let them sell / — Y'es.
.')79.")]. What about selling all night? — I would let them sell all night.
.')7!ir>L.'. Would you have them sell to drunken men J- When men get as l)a(l ,is ail
ihal give them the ("iold Cure.
■')79-").'5. liut in the mean time you would let them sell, so long as they wei'e able to
pay .' — Yes.
.'579iJ4. So, altliMUgh you favour j)rohibition in the abstract, you (lo not fa\(iur a
small mciusure of prohibition in the shajie of houi's or jieople '--No. I would of cour.se
jiroliibit selling to minors. A man who does that should be pui<islied mmv severely, not
by ;i tine but by penitentiary or .something of that kind.
.'57'.l.")."). In regard to the treatment of a persistent <lr
nothing better than to try the (iold Cure? — Y'es.
■'i79.")(). At whose expense ? — Let it be made ]>:iit of
wherever they have the license system.
.'579.")7. Let the communities that have this license systi
institutions ?- Y^'s.
•">79.").'s. Would your favour the separation of the sale of groceries from the s.de of
lii|Unr .' — Y'es.
.')79.")9. Which, in your ojiinion, is the more harmful, the hotel bar oi- the saloon
li'ii'; if one or the other had to be done away with, which would it be bet ter to dispense
with !- I liave not given that matter any consideration, but I do not see that there
\Mi\ild be much dirt'erenco.
•">79r)0. Have you reason to lieiieve that there is any illicit s.ilc in Calgary sale liy
I'l icfs that have no licenses? — i have no possible means of knowing tha!.
nkard you thiid< there is
the municipal machinery
1 in force maintain those
iiMI
! 1 I
/I;/ A'rr. D,: McLmd :
• ')79(>1. Providr'd the (!old Cure institutions were established by the municipality,
would you also havo the munici])ality provide for the families of those inebriates vvhc
Were undergoing the (Sold Cure pi'ocess .' — [ do not think that is a fair (|iiestiiin. ' »f
eiiuise if a man misconducts himself oi- abuses his family, the members of his family or
his friends, should have him jilact^d in such an institution, or he should be brought
before a .lust ice.
• '79(iL'. Have vou noticed if the license system works well here? — Y'e.s,
40.5
i
!!-'
ll
m '■
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territoiies.
.'t7i}().'5. Does it work well or not?— I tliiiik it work.s well here, as well ns in Toronto-
or anywhere else.
37904. How is it observed here ? — In Calfjary you lan jjet li(|Uor ainuist any iiour
of the (lay or nij;ht, that is to say after hours, as in fact you can do in Toronto. That is
my experience of Inith places.
;37'J(>o. So licens(! does not particularly regulate the trade? — No, 1 do not believe
it does. One thiiif^ in re<,'ard to Calvary's position is that you can f;ct better li(|Uor now.
t'{79()(). Do you know whetlier men holding licenses sell adulterated liijuor or not .'
-They possibly may do so, but I do not know. 1 know the liquor has l)een better since
the liconsi- system came into force, and that some men were jiretty nearly poisoned by
drinking adultei'ated iiijuoi' before this.
.■17"Jt>7. You have leferied to people drinking red ink ? -Th(!y would make it into .i
.solution of some kind mixed with water and other ingredients.
.'i71)()H. You tiiink at the present time it is not necessary to resort to led ink !
No, there is alcohol.
.'{79()!(. Tho.se compounds to which you have referred, were taken f(tr the small
percentage of alcohol in them, I suppose? — Yes.
.'37970. Did you ever notice whether men began to drink on red ink or pain-killer,
or were those liipiids confined to men who had become addicted to the habit of drinking .'
I have seen young men in the town who probably never drank 10 gla.sses of whisky
in theii- lives take a di'ink of red ink.
.■?7971. \\'li;it effect has the red ink r)n the men? — 1 have never .seen enough sb'unk
to be able to tell. T never tasted it.
.'17971.'. It was not a general tipple, I suppose?- — No.
.■{7973. Still the (lercentage of alcohol in it is not vei'v great, and if there had noi
been other deleterious substances in it the liquid would n<jt have been so bad after all .'
— I think there is a jiretty good perctMitage of alcf)liol in red ink.
.'?7'.t71. Do you think the mi.\ture might ha\e been labelled red ink and that it
containeil a laigei' percentage o*" alcohol than ordinary red ink, or do you think it was
good red ink ? 1 do not know. In 18(S.'5-iSl while here for the railwiiy company, they
would !iot allow red ink to be on the premises, ami they would not supply it to the
agents, and so the agents themselves hafl to buy it.
3797-">. Was that red ink w/iich they took similar to that with which you yourself
write?- They took tin-ee bottles out of my own otlice.
.37970). Have energetic etl'orts been made to prevent lii|Uor being brought in and
also to prevent illicit sales '. — Y'es.
.37!I77. J>ipyi'U think the police constables were as vigilant as they might lia\i'
been ill their attempts xo prevent illicit sale ?^ I do not know.
.'i797S. ^^'ilat is your reason for holding that opinion ? — This : thei'e was bribery.
Y'^ou could buy up, J should .say, a great many constables on town duty. There were
ai'rangements made with saloon and hotel-keejiers in this town for one dollar a gallon,
by which the constables would allow a numl)er of illicit packages to come in witlmui
seizing them and destroying the li(|Uc(r. In another case 10 or L'O gallons would coinr
in from th(! east under permit and would be dealt with in this way. Instead of tlii'
permit being cancelled at the station they wt)uld let the permit and the whisky ImiIIi
go ; by letting the permit go, the persons would be able to get lots of li(]uor in. That lia>
been done in several instances. I was offered .S.")00 to let in a numl)er of barrels cit
whisky which had been left on the cars.
.37979. Where were you agent at that time I At tiiis place.
.37980. That attem])t was. of course, not successful? — It was not.
.■i7981. Do you think the system, as it was in operation, was properly called a pm
liil)ition system? — I do not. I think the attemjit at prohibition was a farce.
.37982. Do you think that the attenii)t to caiiy out a prohibitory .system in tin
Territories might be considered a fair test of the prohibitory law? — If you look at tlu'
questi n the way 1 do, you might put 10,000 soldieis round Calgary and you would not
be alile to keep whisky from coming in. There? would still be a way to bring it in.
3798.3. rnderground ? — Y'es.
(JKOIifiK M.MiSll.
406
^\'
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'57984. Ho you think tliiit iiiidor iiiiy circumstiiiu'cs wliisky raiinot Ix- kfpt init ! —
1 do not h(^lie\(! it can, iiiul I have; had a very ;,'(kkI opportuiiily nt' sct'iuf; it. It was
brouf^ht tlirou^h tlm niouiitaiii passes, ft was l)n>ii;{lit u[) from MontHiia and it was
bi'ouglit iiy scores of different ways.
.'{TDH"). You tliink it would he a good thing if it ecjuhl all Ite kept mit, I supjxise?--
Yes, l)ut you would have to prohibit the manufacture.
/{i/ ,/iiifiji' JfcDiuiii/d :
.'{"lilSG. On the continent f V'es, on the continent.
.'57987. Hut you would wish prohil)ition to extend all o\ertlie world f Yes, that
would be better, but still people would try to manufacture !i<iuor.
.'57988. Suppo.se lii|Uor was prohibited to lie manufatJtured on this continent, would
not the p(!ople brin^' in liipior along the sea coast '/—That would be a [)retty i-ound
about way io bring it into Calgary.
.'57989. l?ut would it not be bi-ought in that way to the continent .' The (JoverTi-
ment migiit keep it out in that case.
■'57990. How numy .soldiers would l»o re<iuired to tie it J — It: would bankrupt the
country to flo it.
/{{/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
•'57991. You hav(! said that the Canadian Pacific Hail >v ay Company would nut send
red ink to the otHcers : was it becau.se it was (h-unk tluu'e /-They were afraid to send
it. Some of the old otticials of the Company will tell you so.
By Jndije McDontdd :
.'5799'2. Did you know the police officer who got .*! a gallon for lii|Unr that he
allowed to come in? I was picsent at the sheds when a man got )?25 for allowing 25
gallons to come in.
;5799.'5. Was he a police otlicer? He was a constable.
;i7994. Did you report him .' That was after f left the Mail way Company.
.'5799.'). You were still a citizen of coui'se.'- Yes.
.'5799(5. And you allowed that man to remain on the police forn' .' It was none of
my business.
■'57997. Was that during the time of the trouble / Yes, it was during the time of
the rebellion, when whisky was worth from )^25 to .$.'50 a gallon.
■'57998. What were you ofl'ered ? !?r)00 for eight liarrels of oatmeal and four nf sugar.
;57999. Thos(! barrels had li(|Uor in them, I supi>os(' ,' - Yes. They wei'c address I
to the consignee.
.'58000. What became of them .'-They were ultimately destroyed by the otficers.
The Canadian Pacific Railway detectives sat u]i with them. The Cana<iian Pacific
Uailway was using every efl'ort to kee]) liiiuor out nf the country.
■'58001. Then they wei'e not playing into the hands of smugglers'? No
•'5800l'. Did the detectises come along with the goods in the cars ? — He would
sometimes come on the train just before the li(|Uor arrived.
.'5800;5. Did the man who ofl'ered to buy the liipior know that detectives were com-
ing along ? 1 do not know.
■'58001. Was the lii|Uor consigned to the man who oflered you the money?- No, he
was doing it through a third party.
.'!80()r). Was he a man who would not be suspected? I foiget the name.
•'5800(5. Then it was consigned to a third jxm'sou ? Tt was consigne<l to a man living
to the north.
.'58007. Then the li(|Uor was not wanted for himself? — No. That man was a go-
bi'tween.
.'58008. The party was going to canv the liiiuor north for sale. I supjiose .' Yes.
.'58009. Y(m refused to squeal !- Yes.
^58010. Did you see the barrels opened? Yes, When the liarrels of oatmeal were
opened there was in the centre of each barrel a keg containing live oi' ten gallons of
whiskv.
407
ill
i!
I
liHH
Jit:
i
1
■ In;.
i
I*
to.
Li<[iK)r TiJillic — North-west Territories.
.'tsOll. NVIiiit wore ill tlic otlior Iiihti'In? ("i^iirs.
•'isol-j. |)i(| iJm' hiint'lH iippfiir to li;ivt' cunif from (list illt>iit'H.' Yen. I^'iiIitm in
\\'iinii|ii'i; s|iip|M'(i tiicni in tlial wiiv.
.'(HOl.'t. Tiu'ii tln'V iiiul cdint' t'nini w linlfsiilc (icjiiiTs not tVoin sti^'.ir iftincrs ( Yen.
I sliijulii say tiiiit pi'oliiliition tlu-n- imd ii tcmifnoy to lirtM'tl i-riiiiiiiiils,
//// U>r. Dr. Mi'.Li'uif :
• i'^^llll. l>o you mean as to |ii'oiiil)it ion or as to tli<- wliisky ^ It is tlic\vliisi<y
ti'adi- ;iii<i t III' inilucfiiirnts ott')>i')'(i liy |)i'oiii'iiition tiiat lirciil niininals.
I'ATltICK .r. NOl.AN, .111., of Calgui-y, bai ristn-, on Ijcin^
follows :--
duly sworn, deposed us
Bi/ Jiidfji' McDoiiiilil :
."iSOl"). How lon;i lia\(' you ii\t' in tlu' Territories ,' Tlii'ee years.
.'JHOlll. Where did you ectnie from to tlie 'I'erritories '.- Krom < Mitario.
.'JStdT. I laM' you had any e.\))erienee of th<! permit system and of the license law
iiere I Ves.
iiSOl.H. Wliich is your prefereni'e as lielween the two systems .' I think license
is prefeial)le. My experience tiurinu my residence in Cid;,'arv <vouid lead me to that ImM, f.
."iSOlit. Can you tiise any evidence in re^jard to tlie workinj; of the system tiiat would
be of use to this ("ommission .' It woukl appear to me that there is a decrease in crime
since the introduction of the license .system.
iWUl'O. Do you think there is a decrease in drinkin>; '. I do. I am only si 'akinL'
of the town and neif:;hl)oui'hood of Calj^ai'V. My e.\])erience is, as I h;i>.,- slated, ui lei
the jiermit .system as well as under the licensi! system, and whateNcr di'inkirij; is done
now is optMi for everyone to see, whereas, before jirohahly there was a lot done in .secret.
MSUlM. Do you know anytliinj; of the character of the li(|Uor.sold .' Where there is
so much competition, necessarily the liiiuor is good, because there are so many places in
whi<'h you can get it. (Jn one occasion I e<)unted 'M\ places when" it could lie got before
the license law I'ame into force.
.'{SOi'i.'. What kind oF compounds wei'c sold in those jilace.s >.- Probably whisky, and
some was pretty poor whisky.
■!S(J2;V Did you use red ink? Not in my time. Those are stories always tol<l to
incoming settlers.
;{S0:i4. Then you did notr tind any dilHculty in obtaining li(|Uor .' No.
."iSOL'."). When did you come here; In ISS',).
."iStL'fl. In case of the enactment of a gener.il proliiliitor,- law, a law to prohibit the
manufacture, importation and sale tjf intoxicating liipior for beverage purposes, do you
thiidc it would be I'ight that brew(;rs and distillei's should receive compensation for their
lo.HS of jilant and machinery'/ Y^es, so far as the jilant the law c()m]ielled them to have.
.'iSOiiT. Can you make any suggestion in the direction of improving the license law ,'
— The princijial one to which I desire to i-(;fer is one that has came under which my own
practical experience with regai'd to the license! system ; that one which allows the whole
sale dealei' to renunn open until lU o'clock on Satui'day night w hile it compels thf^ hold
l)ai's to close at 7 o'clock.
.'{SOl'S. A\'ouI(1 you put them both on the same footing.' ^'es, 1 would, because the
licen.sed dealer is n<it allowed to sell less than one tpiart, and that causes lots of home
drinking where tin; peojile woulil otherwise be contented with a glass. 1 went over the
figures in the jiolice record, with Mi-. Sifton, and although it does not ajipear that the
number of drunks or vagrants has Ikm':i larger during the last six months than before,
that can be acounted for in a good many ways. In the first place drinking is more open
now. If a man gets under the intiuence of licpior he may be ejected from the place where
<iKoi{nK M.\iisii.
408
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.).
A. 1894
tlic lii|iii)r is sold, liiit uii«l»M' tlw (lid M'stcm >urli a iiiiiii wmilil lif icninNt'd tn ii liiick
i'(H)iii or tiikcM ujistuii'.s iiiid |>ut to lird jind l<)-|it out of tlic way uiilil lie wiis ulilc to
tiik*' cure of liiinscit'. Tlii.s will iiccoimt tnr tlii' disfi-cpaiicv to soiiif i-xtfiit,
Itil /I'rr. /),: Mrl.r„.l ■
.■|SO'J!». >'ou Miy you jinivfd Ihmc mi |S,s',». At that tiiin' tin' t'oiir pri- ifiit Im-it
|ionnits wtTc lieiiig ;;riiht»'d, I lieiievc f A'fs.
;IHO.'<0, So you (lifl not ul' ici'vc the condition of tilings prior to tlint diitcf No,
(•\i'i'ytliiii>i at tliat lime was four per (•■nl.
.'{HtJ.'tl. l>o you regard tliat >yNlrni as a |iroliiliitury systcni at ail ; It was to a ccr-
tuin class,
.■{MO;}!'. 'i"o what class I — Men who could not all'ord to Ituy lariic i|uantitics and who
could not <^i'X {X'l'inits.
.'JHO.'l.'t. Is it a fact thai tiic permits were had liy persons who were not of a very
intcllif^'cnt class '. They must ha\c liccu liivcn tujicrsons of that class, althouiih a ;;rcat
luaiiy found it dillicult to <n'\, pciinits.
.iHtJ.'M. Y(Ui spoke ahout .'tti places si-llinj;: was anything; done to prevent them
doMi;; so '. Last year there was a policeman l)rou;,'lit from l{ei,'ina, a strauLter who went
aiound those placi's. This ollicer was hrou^'ht here hy order of (.'onuuissioner llerchmer,
and his husiness w as to ;,'o tlnouith ( 'alj,'ary and disco\er' w here intoxicating; liipiors wcrt*
lieini» sold. I think tiiere were ■_'."> places to which the Corporation issued licenses for a
feeof.*IO() to sell non intoxicatiiiy lii|Uors. luit it was inidei-.stood iiy evei'yl»od\' that
they sold intoxicating; drinks.
.'i80."?"). Do you thiid< the town authorities knew that.' If they did not know tiuit
they were very hlind.
.'iHU:'>(l. Did the town authorities interfere with them.' Not that I .saw.
•'iSO.'tT. l)o you know whetiier the town authorities utulei' cover of makini.' ])ro\ ision
fill' the sale of temperance liexcrajfes really favoured the ,salu of intoxii'ants .' It seemed
to nu^ that the town police were hlackmailinj; those people to a certain extent. I am
sjicakini; aliout the man l>rout;lit from Iteyina and who went from one place to another
and |>rocurcd (|uile ,i lot nf evidence of sellin:;. lie was afterwards prosecuted foi-
lierjlMT.
.■iStj.'i.s! W,is he coinicted.' No. 1 Ic mi;.'ht ha\ (■ heen deaU with hy the moimted
|iulice. At all events he ,t;ot si.x months' imprisomnent for lilackmailinu.
.■iS(j;i<). Was he acting in the characier of a detectixc .' Me did not turn out to he
much of a detiH'tive.
.'{HUKJ. ^^'ere his actions in the dinction of detect ive wurk ; was there any ri'ijular
system of woikinji?- No. We had a Ijoom in whisky selling and there were lis or 1!)
cases in tiie police court.
Iljl Jiiihii' Mi-Dditnlil :
.■{S041. hid he hope to 1"' aWIe to lilarkuiail the restaurant-keepers .' Yes.
.'iSOll'. Was he j;iiin<f ahout ainnni^ the r"staurant-kci'pers and makiiiL; cliari,'es
against them '. Yes.
•"iSOHi. So he was iMjuvicted of attemptini; to blackmail tlii'in individually/ ^'es,
hy the police authorities tlieniselv es. and he was sent away.
•'iSOH. |)oyou know whether there was any illicit manufaci lire in the neiL;hl)our-
1 1 .' Very little.
."iSOl"). It has lieen stated heii' to-day that compounds were used in the Territories.
\N as that liefore your time I There has lieen none of tliat since 1 came here.
.■58041). It has been stited here that the nianufaeture of liipiors is heinn introduced
here, aiui that a hrewerv is Iteinu started? Yes.
.•{SO 17. Tn Caluary? -Yes. '
•")S04S. Is it foi- the manufacture of orclinary ale .' Yes. Tliefe is not a very eiior-
iHiius (juantity of li(|Uor. of ale, imported into the Territories, hut the peo])le ai'e heijin-
iiiiiiito lind out that, althou;,'li it is cheap; it is a very j^jood article, anil that litth^ harm
V ill he done Ity drinkiny it, and that industry should he allowed to go on.
409
lii
W Uilii
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territorias.
38019. How many licenses were issued in the town for liquid refreshments? — Some
are veiy peculiar places and you might come across them without knowing them. I
think T counted at one time 3.") or ."tG.
.'iSOOO. Did they all have municipal licen.sfs ? — No, oidy 25 had.
.'58051. Then there were 12 at least who sold illicitly ?— Yes.
.'58052. 1 ju do not claim that all the pei'sons who had such licenses committed
breaches of thelaw? -T am suie they did. I never heard of a place in Calgarj' whei'e ti
man could not obtain intoxicating drink, o>" get anything else, except at a store.
Jiy Jiev. Dr. McLeod:
■'5805:5. Thei'e is some prohil)itiun at present in tiie license system, I believe ! — T
think the .system is about the best on(> we can have.
By Juihje McDonald :
'?tf-(jo\. Did the public, as a general rule, know tiiat the system of selling iiciuid
retVeshments was only a cloak 1 — I am sure they did.
.'58055. Witli the oijject, of coui'se, of increasing the re\enue of the municipality ? —
Yes. The license system has increased it also to a certain extent, as there were only
15 or 1() places paying a license of 8100, there are now 9 or 10 places paying a .*200
license each.
&.
II
hi
The names of Sheriff King, L. S. Baden, Amos Howe, \V. Pierce anil Inspectoj-
Snider were called and the parties did not answer, the two last named being reported a^j
out of town.
Jl'DCE JlrDONALD. The Commissioners undei'stand that neithei- Mi-. Kribbsnor
Mr. SjM'nce wishes to call any further witnesses.
Mii. SPENCE. — 1 do not think it is necessary.
Mi{. KHIHS. — I do not think it is necessary.
JlHXiK McDonald. — in view of the statements of Mr. Spenceaad Mr'. Kriblis, and
the fact that the otHcial list of witnesses has been railed .several times, and all whohuM'
responded have been examined, the Commissionei-s do n<.t think it necessary to cuntinui'
the s'tting toinonuw, and therefore the Conunission now stands adjournetl.
Tl -! Conunission adjourned, to nieei ai Eurt .Macleod.
Illi'i'
IP
1
fi
m
\h\\
PaTHUK .1. Nol.AV.
410
m
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
FORT MACLEOD, Noven.bpi- ;1, 1892.
Tlic Royal Coniniissioii mi tlic Ijicnioi- Traffic met liero tiiis diiy.
I'mneiit :
JuDCE McDoxAMx Rkv. ])i!. McLkod.
WILLIAM COX ALLEN. .M.l)., of Fort Macleorl, Colk-etor of Customs iuid
Collector of Iiiliiiid Revenue, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
By Judge McDonald :
•'58050. How many years have you resided here? — -I have been her(> more tiian six
years.
.■58057. Was tlie permit system in force when you came here? — It was.
.■58058. Since 1st of May the Territories iiave be(;n under a license .system ? — Yes.
.'58051). Has any liquor come in since then in bond, or been imjiorted? Yes.
•■580G0. Can you tell the Commissionei's how much? -I was looking at the amount
of money I received for (hity on li(|uor, and I noticed tli' amount was .•?1,100, oi- .■?1,000
Inland Revenue and .S400 Customs.
;580()1. Whii.t is the rate of duty ?— .-^lM :i.^ per ,!.'aliiMi Customs and .*!. 50 per gallon
Inland Revenue.
.'580(i2. On wiiat kind of liipior was the duty collected / -On difterent kinds, mi
whisky particulai'ly.
.■5fcOt).'5. Was li(|uor brought in illicitly to this country befoi-e the iiccnse s\steni
i-aiiie into foi'ce i 1 am sure of it.
.'5S0()4. \\'as there smuggling to anv extent? -Yes, to a large extent.
;580l)5. From where ? — From Montana, United .StatPs.
.'iSOtJO. Was that the [irincipal point for this section of the country I Yes.
."i80('>7. Have you any knowledge of the i{uality of li(|Uor that was brought in
whether it was g(jo(l or bad ? 1 am told that it was \ery poor.
380t)8. Was it alcoholic liipioroi' ale f — Generally alcoholic liijuors, or pure alcohol.
J800'.). Have you reason to believe that the Xoi'th-west Mounted Police were \ igi-
lant in trying to prevent .smuggling? -Yes.
;5St)70. \\'ere they faithful in discharging their dtities ? — Yes : they c.ime under my
notice \ery nuuii. They made a great many seizures which they handed over to me, and
they were very careful in carrying out their duties.
•'i8()71. Fi'om your experience in this country do you think it wduld be praciiciible
til enforce a prohibitory law ? — I do not.
.'58071.'. Which, in your opinion, is the preferable system : the present one i ;• the
permit system ? — The pi'esent system, decidedlv, so f.ir as we are concerned.
•'i807-'5. You mean the people in this section .' - Yes.
•'l.'^<.)7 1. Has there lieen an inci'ease in di'unkenness since the license law came into
operation ? -I cannot perceive it : I cannot perceive any niati'rial changtvs at all.
")S075. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law. a law to prohibit
die manufacture, im|iortation and sale of alcoholic liipiois for lH\erage purposes, do you
think brewers and distillers should receive com]ii'nsation for their loss of plant and
machinery .' — That is a matter on wliirh I cannot gi\'e an opinion.
•'!''^07l). Have ymi given it any thought .'I tind that some people are for and some
against it. I think that if \ exjiressed my own person. 1 view, it would lie no.
•'5>'077. It has been urged that the law re( pi ires distil lei's to provide cei^ain machinei'v
and to keep the liipior for two vears foi- purposes of rectification and, tin refore, it is
411
1 i- !
' )■
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
uri,'etl tliiit if their business was destroyed tiiey siiould l)e reiuunerated. You think
they should not receive reniunenition 'I — I do not.
Jh/ Rev. Dr. McLmd :
."58078. So tliero was a j^reat deal of sniu<;,i;ling jjrior to 1st of May last ? — Yes.
;{8079. Do you know if smuggling has continued since that time ?--Xn.
38080. You think there has been none ? — I do not think theie has been any smug-
gling at all.
.'SSOSl. xVre the police as vigilant now as they were before to prevent smuggling? —
] think they are. They have to protect the Customs now, and L-onse(|uently I am thrown
amongst them a good deal, and I think they are e.Ktremely vigilant in every jiarticular.
.38082. Do you regard the old system as j>rohil)ition in any sen.se? — I do not, I iHciy
say that J do not think it jxissible to carry out such a law here because of our extensive
Ixjrder.
.■t8()8:i. You are pecniliarly situated hei-o f— Yes.
.'58084. hut the (juestion I desire to ask you is this : |)o you regard the old system
as one of prohibition or as one of permission ?~ I think it was a system of permission.
.■}808"). .Speaking of a general prohibitory law for tlie country at large, do you think
till' prohibition of liipu>r, that is its manufacture and sale, is desirable in the interests of
th<' coun'iT .' I do, pi'ovided it could be eilectually cari'ied out.
.■58080. IJeing jicculiarly situated here, the diHiculty of enforcement comes very
closely under your observation? -Of course, I can speak not only of here, l)ut of down
east, where I occupied a jniblic position for sonu^ years. In Ontario we were just across
the boundai-y, ami there was a great deal of smuggling going on. T was a strong .'idvo-
cate of the .Scott Act, but after it had been tried T w;is not.
.'5SU87. The Local Option Law of course only restricted the sale, not the uuinu-
facture? — Exactly.
lUj .finhji' Mi'Ddiiidd :
.'5808S. Taking the cctuntry as you know it. not only tiiis ])art liut the I'ast, and
taking into account the boundary line and our water connuunications do vou think it
W(
)uld 1
)c pr.ictii'able to en
force a proliil)itoiv law for the whole countiy .' 7 do not.
Ki;v. DONALD HILT(»N. of Fori Maeleod.^'Cleik
duly sworn, (le])osed as follows : ■
Bji Jiidiir McDiiiKild :
:5808'.). With what C
lb
l\ Older-
on heuiL
•li are you connected ? With the C'liurch of Kngiami.
i80!H). How long iia\f vou resided in Macleod .' — Seven vears.
380'.) I. How Ion
:580I)1'. Then vou have
have vou res
ided in the Teri'itori
observed the working o; tiie former system called tlie jn
"lM)Ui'teen \-e.ir.-
II.
l)iti.
permit system, and tlie working ot the license system siiu
vv the 1st of 3Iav.
which do you think is the more ilesirable .system .' — I think the license .system is more
desirable.
^.'^OitM. Have you reason to believe that th, : .' was iiiiich illieit iiii|inrt,it ion of lii|Uov
under the old system ? 1 ha\i'.
.■58()'.l|. Have vou aiiv
Doses, ai
tidi
cnnwledge whether eoiiipoiiiids were used t.Ji
iC p
es sucli as pain killer, eau
de Cologne, and liiiuids of that kind ,' I ha\e no
personal knowledge of it, but it was commonly repoi'ted that such was the case.
.'580'.l."). Ilaveyiai iii.iiiy people coming here fiom the old eoiiiit lies. Midi as Lngland '
-We 1
lave a grciil many.
WlU.l.VM Cox Al.I.KN.
t hey people ot w lioiii
the I;
irLii'st proportion jire total ,distaiiiei>
412
II
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;$8097. Are thi'V people who use intoxicatinj^ beverages in moderation ! I think
the majority of tlie people use them in nutdei'ation.
;i80y8. Do you think that jieople 0(jminji here from the mother country, and from
(rermany and France and otiiei' countries, who have lieen accustomed to partake of
li<|uors in moderation, would consider the entire prohibition of alcoholic beverages a
(h'awback? — I. think not.
38099. Are you a prohibitionist in principle? — T am, if it could be carried out.
."58100. Do you think it could be carried out? — I think not.
38101. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, would you deem it
right that brewers and distillei's should I'eceive compensation for tiieir loss of plant and
—achinery ',' — That is a iiuestion 1 have never considered.
By Pur. Dr. Me Lead :
3S10:i. Why do you think tlie license sy.ste)n is moiv desirable than the permit or
prohibition system .' iiecause under the prohibition system there was a lot of illicit
drinking, and the license .system has done away with all that. Even in a small community
like this 1") or 18 saloons were selling illicitly. A.s to the consumption of lit|Uor, I do
not know whether it is more or less. The liquors I believe are pure and less injurious
physically.
381(33. Were no attem))ts made to close those illicit |)lacf>s .' Certainly.
.38104. With success? Owing to tech'iicalities it was found impossil)le to tin so.
38105. Did they carry on Ijusiness openly ? — So far as I understand, they did so
iipenly.
.38106. You have expressed yourself as being favoui'able to firohibition if it could
be carried out, but vou liave expressed an opini<jn that it could not be carried nut? —
Yes.
;58107. I )n you think, if puVjlic o]iinioii, taking the country n\er, was strnngly in
t'axiiur of such a law, it would be ))ossible to enfoi'ce it? — 1 think ])ublic npinion wnuld
have tn be very strongly in fa\our of it.
.38108. How many years have you Ijeen in the ministry (— Seven or eight years.
3810'.!. Tla\eyou observed, in your intercourse with the people as a nunister and
with your knowledge of families and family life and individual life as well, whether
till' drink tratHc, as it is carried on, is resjionsible, in any way, foi- the unhappiness of
tiiniilies, the neglect of childi'en and neglect (if religion?- Certainly. 1 ha%(' oliserved
it to some extent.
•38110. According to your nbservatinn is it tn any considera))lc degree? — -No, 1
cannot say that it is.
38111. Do you think there are uther causes that contribute more to these sad
results? — Do 1 understand your (|uesti((n to refer to the taking of li(|uors ?
3811:.'. T mean the liipior trattic and habit. 1 think tint.
3811.3. Is a sniall j.ercentage nnly of tlinse rcsultsattributable tn thcdrink lialiit and
iraltic t — ( )f cnui'se, I recoginze that people drinking to exc(>ss in any cnnununity bring
distress on themselves ami their families : but 1 do not thiid<, from my experience, that
iiinderate drinking, in any way, brings distress on families.
381 14. Have you observed whether nifulerate drinking has a temlency in any degree.
(1 to excessive (lriid\ii
I perieixt' it is the tirst step to excessisc driid\ing.
"I'^ll."). Ynur objection to prnhibiiiori is that it is impracticable? Yes.
3SI1(). l)oy'>u iielieve in th(> princijile of prohibition, if it could be carried out^? —
Ccitainly. I think the introduction of the license system has materially damaged the
lialf-breed jinpidatiun nf the community.
3S117. Ha\eyou ! ndians here ? Yes, I ndians and Half-breeds.
•381 IS. Have you noticed whether the Indians are moi-e endangered under license
'lian they wert^ under the old system?-- I think tliere^ is more danger to them under the
lircscDt license system.
•3S110. You agree with the Indian Connnissioner and police oHicers, wlio say they
lin\c to take extra ju'ecaulions to jirotect the Indians against the li(juor trade .' - Yes.
413
11
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
I',
III
Ill'
liiii
m
.7<»SEPH H. WRIGLEY, of Fort Macleod, iulvocate, on being duly sworn,
deposed a., follows : —
Bi/ Judye McDonald:
.■?f<120. How lonf{ have you resided here? — Actually in Maeleod since 1st July.
;{8121. Where did you reside before that ? — In Lethbridge.
.■<S122. So you have observed the workin',' of the prohibition system as well as tiic
license system ?- I have seen the working of Di-ohibition in nearly every town in iIk;
Territoiies, as well as the license system.
:5<S12.'5. How long have you lived in the Tei-ritories ? — About one year and nine
iiionths.
.'{8124. Wiiere were you before you came to the Territories? — In WinnipejjJ.
3812-'). Which system, in your opinion, is preferable ? — The license system.
."58120. How did you find the old system work ?— I found that in the majority of
cases it did not prohibit. In some towns, of course, strangers might have considerable
difficulty in getting liquor. There was an immense amount f)f smuggling going on.
."58 127. Have you, in youi- experience, seen such compounds as pai/i-killei-, eau de
Coll igne and such liquors used as beverages'? — T have seen them use li(|uor in wliicli
animals had been preserved, such as reptiles, and also red ink, and I have seen tobacco
iised witli red ink. The tobacco was Ijoiled and then strained and then mixed with the
red ink and diluted with water.
.■(8128, Do you think, from youi- ex})erie)ice, that proiiibition would be practicable and
could be eiiforcei' in these Territories? — Xo, not witli the present feeling of the jieople.
;W12!). Would it recpiire a large force of j)ublic opinion in favour of such a law in
fiider to make it successful ? — Yes, a very large force of public feeling.
381 .'50. Failing that, you fear that ii(|Uor would be ln'ought in illicitly ? — It would
be both mauufacturiHl and brought in illicitly. Oown liere smuggling would go on to a
large extent, Ijut iKtrth they would nianufactui'e.
381.'U. A considerable amount of evidence has been submitted before the Commis-
.sion in regard to liquors brougiit in in barrels of rice, sugar and molas.ses and so on :
Had you any experience of that kind litu-e ? — No, I have never seen liquor brought
in contained in other goods. I havt^ seen liipior that has beei! smuggled in,
.■5Sl.'i2. Have you considered the question of gi'anting compensation to brewers and
distillers J — I really am not prepaivd to give an opinion on that subject.
]h) Jier. Dr. McLiml :
.'{81.'i.'{. You say that you think prohibition is not piacticabi," witii the present opi-
nion of the people. Do you think there may be, at some time, a state of feeling amoiii!
the people that would be favourable to prohibition ! — Of course there may be, but I do
not see any signs of it.
381."{4. Drt you think it is a question that nuist be determined Ijy the peojjle's repre-
sentatives ! — No, |)ersonally I do not.
38l;i."). Is your obji'(!ti(m to prohibition an objection to the principle or to its prac
ticability ! — As regards both in these Ten'itoi-ies.
38130. Dots tiiat opinion apply lo the co uitry at large? — So far as my experieiiLi'
goes, I do not think a general prohibitory hiw could be carried out ; and, besides, I am
opposed lo the [)rinciple of proiiibition.
.381. "i7. Your exptriences have Iwen exclusively in the Territories and Manitoba? —
Exclusively.
1^:
JoHici'ii 11. \\'nii:ij;v.
414
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ROHERT EVANS, of Fort Macleod, veterinary surf^eon, oii l)i'inj{ duly sworn,
deposed as follows : —
Jhj Judge McDonald :
.■?8l.'?8. Are you connected with the Mounted Police force here ? — No.
.S81M9. Do you hold any offtcial position? — Yes, Revenue Inspector.
.'58140. How long have you lived in the Territories ? -Three years.
.'WHl. Have you lived all tliat time in Fort Macleod ? -Ye.s.
.■{8l4'J. Did you come here from one of the other pi'ovinces? From Ontario, from
the County of Peel.
.■{814."i. AN'hat sy.stem dealing with the liciuor tratfio was in force there? The license
system.
."581 44, And thci^ s ^u have had e.\perience here with the so called in-ohihition sys-
tem ami also with the license system. Which do you think is nioi'e desirable ? — The
license system is decidedly preferable to the system that was formerly in ojx-ration.
.■i814.j. What were the difficulties under the <jld system ? The indifference of the
]ieojjle.
.■i814(5. Nothing fui'ther ? — ^The difficulty that the police had to contend with in
enforcing the law was entirely due to the reticence the peojjle felt in informing against
illicit dealers in whisky.
;i8147. Did members of the force Jippear to do their duty faithfully ? -Yes.
.'58148. Was the principal difficulty experienced in obtaining evidence ? — Yes.
.'i814!i. Were the witnesses troubled with bad memory '. My e.xpei'ienee has been,
Ijoth in the east and in the west, that the witnesses will not tell you anything.
.■i.'^l.")0. Has there been any smuggling going on hei-e ? — I understand tliei'e was
smuggling, but 1 do not know it personally.
• iSl.")!. How far are you from the boundary line .' — 50 mih-s in a straight line.
•"iSl52. Do you consider from your experience that [H'ohibition would be practical)le
ill these Territories? -I do not tiiink it would be in this country at all.
|'^J.'581.").'5. Do you meyii it could not hv enforced ? — It could not beenft)rced, not because
tlie officers might not do their duty but owing to the indifference of the ])eople, for the
majority of the people who do not drink do not cari; to enforce the law against
those who want licjuor.
•'iSl.')4. Taking the country as we have it, with its vast boundary line and great
coast line, do you think a general proliibitory law would l)e capable of enforcement ? — No.
.'581")."). Have you considered the question of granting renuineration to brewers and
distillers for their loss of plant and machinery in case of the enactmi'iit of a general |)ro-
hibitory law i — Yes. I think they should be I'enninei'ated in the event of their business
being destroyed. In regard to hotel-keepers, they are in an entirely dill'erent line.
Bjf R>'v Dr. MrUod:
.'58156. You say you belie\'e the licens> -ystem preferable to the so-called prohibi-
tive system ? — Yes.
•■>81.")7. Do you think the license sy.,tem pi'eferiible to prohibit inn fairly well iMifor-
iril ! \i you could enforce prohibition, it woidd be the better system.
^58158, So your objection to jiiohibition is not to the prii)"inle, but because in your
I'pinion it is impracticable? Because of its iiupractii'ability and because of tlie indiffer-
ence of the [leojile.
.'SSI.")*.). Speaking of the j)olice force, we had it in evidence that p()li<'e eunsliibles,
\^llo received veiy small ]iay, were sulijected to \ im'V serious tem]itat ions in the way of
ti|isfrom smugglers and other illicit dealers, and in that way they winked at the illicit
trade. Have you observed whether anything of that kind has oecm'red down this way?
Not ]iersonally. T have no knowledge of it. It was ri'ported here that on one occasion a
ciiiistable had taken something i'l'om the hotel-ke«?per here. Hut .as to prexenting liipior
being brought in, it was most difficult to get convictions against any man for bringing it
111 anil \ery dillicult to get convictions for selling it.
•'581()0. Was that owing to the unwillingness of witnesses to testify? — Yes, and
tlieie seemed to l)e a desire not to punish any one for selling.
415
■\
m.
!!■•
,1 -
11
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
."JSUJl. Were the witnesses for the most jmrt men who liad purcluisetl li(|UOi' at
those places ? -Yes, mostly.
.'{81(52. Would you rejiai'd their unwillinuness to testify against sellers due to the
fact that they had been pai'ties to the breaking of the law? — No, I attiibute it to theic
repugnance to have the man convicted for selling lii(uor which they wanted,
.'$81().'5. Anil they were unwilling to have the men punished for violating a law to
which they wei'e themselves a party ] — Yes ; and yet hundreds of tlio.se people would vote
for prohibition. If the law was adopted and placed on the statute-book, they would not
assist in enfoi'cing it.
.■{8164. Have you had any experience of the 8cott Act at any time?— Yes, in the
adjoining counties of Simcoe and Dufl'erin ; it was carried by large majorities and repealed
later on by as large majorities. In oui' county the Scott Act was submitted, but was
not carried.
:{81G.'). Have you observed whether the license law, which you have oljserved in
Ontario and elsewhere, is really ivstrictive to the trade and does it regulate it ?— Y''es, in
t\w particular locality where I lived, it certainly did so.
.■5816(). Whcie was that ? — In Hoi ton near Toronto.
.■{8107. How many licenses are there here? — Two.
;{81G8. Do you know whether there is sale after houi's and on Sunday? — 1 do not
know, but in my opinion there is.
.S8169. Are there any other places selling ! — No.
."581 70. Have you heard of any ? — No.
By Judge McDonald :
:{8171. You spoke of an occasion on which thei'e had been a rumour that a saloon-
keeper had tampered with a member of the force. Do you mean that there were saloon-
keepers then in this town? — ^There were ii great number befort; the license system canu*
into operation.
38172. How many ! — Six or ten.
.{8 17^5. Places where li(]Uor was sold illicitly? — Yes.
.'58174. And openly? — Yes.
Jhj Riv. Dr MrLeud:
;?817r). Do you regard the old system as one of prohibition or permission ?— It was
no pel-mission to sell, only permission to drink.
.■$81 7<). There was no one selling? — Not to any great extent.
;{8177. Was any effort made to prevent them selling? — Not during my time. 1
believe a strong attempt was made aliout two years before the license system came into
force.
VH
i'ii
Hon. .IAMKS FARQUHARSO.V McLKOD. of Fort ^fa.leod, Justice of the
Supreme Court of the Northwest Territories, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
By Judge Mcl)iiii(dd :
38178. How long have you resided in the Territories ?— Since 1874.
.■{8179, How long have you been at Macleorl ? — Since then. TIk; head ipiarters of
the force I commanded was at one time at Cypress Hills, I have made my residenci'
here since.
38180. You were in the N'orth-west Mounted Police and in coinuiand, I believe? —
Yes.
38181, How long did you till the position of commander ? — From .July, 1870, to
November, 188',).
.'18182. Who succeeded you ? — Col. Irvine.
HoHKliT KVANS.
416
h 'I
mW'
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iJ^ilS.i. Ildw Idiii; liiixc you Ik'cii fi .Justice of the Hupreini- Court of tlic Xoitliwest
Tei'ritorics ? — l'^)!' live yciirs.
.'iSlSt. AN'liilc Jill ollicer of tlit^ force were you stationed at iviiy otiicr ])l;ici' tliaii
Cypress I lills aiul licre ( — My licadtjuai'tcrs were liere, except for tiie short time 1 was
at Clypicss Hills.
;isis."). In tlie disdiar^e of your tiuties, did you travel ahout ? — Yes.
.■)8lS(i. The Mounted Police was charji^ed with the enforcement of the ])roliil)itory
enactment, I ijelieve ? — Certainly. I came here first as Assistant Conunissioner of tlie
force ; T «as the first otticer who came here with the force.
.'5N1S7. Were diliiculties i^xjierienced in enforcinj^ that proliihitory law ? — At first
there were no dilliculties at all. W'iien we first came here there was \-ery lit tie li(|iior
soltl, and th(^ idea was to stop the tratlic with the Indians and cliililren.
.SSlcSiS. Was there no white poj)ulation to speak of? — -No, none whatever. We came
in ()ctoher, 11^7 I, and hefoic that time I l)eliev(( there was a great deal of drinkim;
anion!.' the Fnilians. In that year, knowing that we were coming here, the traders
had not brought in any linuoi' to sell. However, \v(^ had an opportuinty of making an
example in two or three eases, and for some time afterwards there was nothing of the
kinrl taking place and we stop])ed the trade entirely.
;iSlSi). What was the condition of things suhse(|Uently '!- • 8ul)se(|uently people
came in and li((Uor was hrought in, and we had more troul)le.
;581UO. As the population increased, what was the effect '! — It was very diflicult to
catch those people who brought it in.
."iSllll. In what way was it brought in ? --In e\ery way.
liSl'.t'J. Was it brought across the boundary line'/- Yes; that was the only way
that it could be brought in then.
."iSl',)."!. Had you any ex])erience of bringing in li([Uor when the railway wasojiened,
or were you not connecte<l with the foive at that time '.--'So.
.'iSli)4. We liave been told that the police found li()uor in jjackages which were
supposed to contain sugar, rice and so on? — I have had no experience of that. J have,
howexcr, seen it bi-ouglit in in disguise at Calgary. I saw ten coal-oil barrels which con-
tained whisky.
.SS11I-"). Were they su|))iosed to be barrels containing coal-oil .' Yes; I had nothing,
however, to do with the matter : T simply happened to l)e staying with the ollicer in
charge. It was brought in during the night and I left early in the morning.
.'iHlOG. Have ytni had li(pior cases brought before you as a . Fudge of the Supreme
Court? —Yes, they would come befor<' me as ap]ieals.
.'iSlDT. Have you had many such cases,' Y'es, a good many.
l5Slt)8. Did the evidence show that many d(>vices were resorted to as means to
snniggle in li(|Uor? — Y'es. The difliculty was to obtain evidence to pro\-e the cases.
.'is 1911. What was your experience in I'egard to the manner in which witnesses gave
tc^timonv in those cases? -ft was \ery bad, and in many cases perjury was connnitted.
.'{SllOO. Since the lirst of .Mav von lia\(> had a license system in force liere, I believe?
—Yes.
.'{SiiOl. Speaking as a citizen and from your expeiience, \\hich do you think pretV'r-
alilc, the old system oi' the; ])resont one? The pri'stjnt .system.
;i"^"J(Jl.'. Do you considei" that a jirohibitory law could be well enf'oiied in these Ter-
litories? -li'rom my experience it could not. We ne\ei', however, had a prohibitory
system in force here, it was i-eally a license system.
."tS'JO;?. It was a permit system, \ believe ' — Yes.
:!'Sl'01. We have been informed that in addition to the huge (piantities brought in
liy permit, there were also large <|uaritities brought in illicitly? — Yes.
;?Sl'(»."). Then there was trouble in both ways?— Y'es.
•")Sl'()('). i'^rom (piantities of li(pn)r bi'ing bi-ought iti under- p(>ii'iit ,ind (|uantilies
lii'ing smuggled in \arious disguises? -Yes.
.'fSL'07. Speaking as a jurist, what is your view of haxingalaw on the statute-
hiKiks what is persistently and flagrantly \iolated : is the ell'cct good or bad '. — I should
diiuk it was bad. 1 know that my conscience has been dreadfully shocked at the way
mill hiuc s',inetiines deliberately sworn to what I knew was untrue. 1 will gi\e an in-
i' I
417
ii=
21--27**
i
J
':fi-
ir
I
rn :^
Liquor Trullic — North-west Tcnitories.
stiiiiw of wlijit of times liappcns wjien F was trying tiiose eases. I asked a man who iiad
uomplaiiicd of lieiiigstniek on tlie liead, if lie liad Ix-eii di'iiiking whisky. Me said, " I do
not know wliat it was." I asked, " \\'as it hi|Uor.'" lie replied, " I do not know." I
asked him if it was into.\ieating, he saitl : " I do not know that it was." I asked }iim
if he had drunk etiough to into.vieate him, — for I tried to get iiim to state whether it was
into.xieating liijuor or not that he had taken. He replied, ''1 cannot say that." Ca.ses
of that kind are constantly ai'ising. Of course the prosecution had to show that the
liquor was intoxicating before I could fine the party.
;{S"J()S. Have yon any knowledge wliether other compoumLs were used in lieu of
ordinai-y ii(|uor? -1 have heeii told of a number of conqxnintls being used, such as bay
rum, paiii-kilh^' and sevei'al others. Then thera was some kind of beer, hop beer, used,
which was altout tin- worst of all.
;iiS20!). Have you considered the (|Ut!stio!i of granting remuneration to brewei's and
<listillers in the event of the passage of a gener'al prohil)itory law, foi' their loss of plant
and machinery i I have carefully I'ead all the debates in the House of Commons in the
t)ld country i>n the (|uestion, and it is a veiy ditlicult matter to arrive at an oj)inion on it.
.'5S210. it has l)een advocated that the law recjuires certain machin(!ry and fittings
and that these have to be changed from time to time in accorilance with departmental
regulations, and, moreftvei', it is necessary, under the law, to keep the li(juorfor a certain
nund)er of years for rectification purjxises. If such a law were enacted, do you think
l)rewers and distillers should be compensated ?— The whole (|Uestion has been debated in
Parliament in the o\d country, and I repeat, it is a (juestion on which it is very difficult
to arrive at an o))iiiion. I do not think my opinion would amount to anything.
/i>/ Rev. Dr. Mr Lend :
."{821 1. Speaking of perjury that arises in those cases : D(j you consider the perjury
due to the system, to the man or to the whisky? — To the man. The men brougiit
before me were generally of a certain class. Wp had very few I'espectable men in the
trade, and although they spoke a great ileal about it, they never wanted to inform.
They even spoke Xo me about li(pior being brought in, and when I said, "(jli\e me im-
forinaiion on which to catch the people, and they will be arrested," they refu.sed to do so.
.■JS'JIl'. Are the i)eople who are called as witnesses generally of a very I'eputablc
class? — They are tiie men who brought it in
.■}8213. Do you think they were likely to perjure themselves if they were giving
e\id(uice in cases in which they had no personal interest? — Not so much 1 think — no, 1
do not think so.
."58214. Why should there be a diflterence? — The reason was that they did not liki-
the law and it did not aj)peal to theii- conscience.
.■)S2ir). What is your opinion in legard to prohibition for the country as a whole ; it'
tlie people were in favour of it, would it be desirable ? - If a large majority of the peoidc
were in favour of prohibition, it would of course be carried.
38210. Would it be desirable? — That I am not prepared to say. 1 lia\e ahva\--
been accustomed to the use of liijuor myself since T grew up, and T was always gi\eii to
understand that there was no harm in it unless you took too much.
38217. Have you obserxed, as a .ludge, whether or not it has anything to do witli
eases of crime , Yes, sometimes. 1 ha\e had several cases in which it was certainly an
element of crime. I had a ease at Medicine Hat where li(iuor was the cau.se of the row
that occurred tliere.
.")8218. Do you object to the ))rinciple of prohibition? — I ol)ject to it on Imlli
gi-ounds. 1 object to the princi])l(> of prohibition. 1 think if a man wants anything lo
drink he should be al)le to have it.
38219. You think that even if there was a strong public sentiment in favour i it'
prfihibition, it would not be right or wise to enact such a law? I did not say so. I said
if a very laige majority was in favour of prohibition it would be right to enact such ii
law, but 1 tliiidv it would re(]uir<> a very large majority to carry it out. ()ne good rcii-
son 1 have for saying so is, that if such a law wei'e carried by a small majority, it wciulil
be infringed by the \ery men who infringeil before, They are the very men who go in
for favouring prohibition, anil yet go in for illicit trade.
Hox. Jamks FAiiyL'HAHsoN McLkou.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;(Sl'l'U. Do you think the peojiU; in t'avour nt' ilhcit trade arc in favoiii' of prohibi-
tion .'- Yfs.
.'{Hl'lil. Is it gpnei-al or is it only in localities wliere sniuyylinj; exists that peojile
have such t'eolings / — Yes, where snuigylin,L{ exists.
Jill Jmlye McDmuihl :
^82'2'2. It has iieen stated hv .hul,s,'e Hodj;son of Prince Kdward Island that in re-
iiard to tlie Scott Act the men who kej)t the worst siieheens were men in favour of the
Scott Act? Yes, that is wliat T have found liere.
;58'J2.'{. Under the prohibitory law all are on the same footiii!.', while under the
license law such men e(juld not hoj)e to get licenses? — When the license law came into
force the ti'aile of those jieople was taken away.
By Rev. Dr. Mcleod :
?>%'1'1\. Are the men who are licensed here the same men who wt're engaged in the
illicit traffic before the enactment of tlie present law ? — I think so.
Hu JiKhje McDonald :
.■iS22."), Have you any othei' suggesti(jns t(» ofl'er to the Commissioners? — Xu, I do
not think so.
I
nie mi-
ll do so.
■outablc
re uiviiiu
k — no,
1
ot lik
hole : 11
; oeolilc
M'iN-eii ti
I, do Willi
rtaiiilyim
f the row
on boUi
|\ythiii.!i 1"
tavciur "I
ISO. 1 -ii"'
lict SlU'll i'
^ it, woulo
aio i;i' i"
GEORGE ALLAN KENNEDY, M. D., of Fort Macleod, on being duly sworn,
tieposed as follows : —
liij Jiidyf Mi/Jfiiiald :
3822C. How long have you resided at .Macleod? — I have been here olV and on for 11
years.
■ >f<-'27. Have you resided here all the time since you came to the Territories?
— Yes, with the exception of 4 years.
.■!f<2'28. Where tlid you resitle then? — I was surgeon of the Police, and I resided at
ditl'ei'ent posts.
•■)Si*2i). Then ycju have .seen the working of the prohibitory law and the license law
ill the Territories.' — Y'es.
.■?8l!."W. Which do you tlnd jireferaljle .'- -I pi'efer the license law.
•■?82."n. Were there dilliculties connected with the cairying out of the prohibitoiy
law ?— A great many.
.'W^.Sl'. What were they .' — In the first jilace the law was n<'\cr properly enforceil.
Then 1 think it gave rise at times to hardships.
•■>S2.'i;i. In what way .' -Sometimes people when they wanted li(|Uor could not get it.
Tliis is a long way from the base of supplies, and it takes a long time to get iiiiuor here.
;'>S2.'>I. Do you mean li(iuor for medicinal pui'poses ? — Yes, I have seen cases of that
kind m the early days.
•'>S'j:i."). Were you troubled with smugglinu' ? Yes.
oSL'.'iti. In this section ? —Y''es, and at l^'ort Walsh and every place where 1 have
been.
•■<8L':i7. Wiiat was the quality of the li(|uor ?— Very bail as a rule.
•■iS2:5S. Ha\e you iKjticed whether there has been an increase of drunkenness since
I lie license law came into force ? It is very hai'd to say. 1 think, probably, tliei-e has
I'cen a slight increase.
• iSl*.')!). Is there more drunkenness to be seen? -That is a mattei' of opinion. I
I I link there has been, possibly, a slight increase. I do U'-t know that there has been
more drunkenness, but ir.ore drink.
•'i821(.l. Has there been an increase in the number of those engaged in the trade? —
X.
21 27. ^*"-*'
419
Oi'
^'iii
Liquor Tmrtic — North-west Territoiios.
•'?Hl'H. AN'i'it' tlifi't' iriiiic (■hi,'!i;,'(>(l ill tlic ti'.'illic wlieii it was illicit thnii now nndor
lii'ciisc .' I tliiiik tlici'c wt'i'c tour <n' list; tiiiics as many lict'urc ihi' licfiisf law caiiKi in,
aiul iiiort' tliaii that pn>l)al)ly.
.■(iS24'J. .Jud^iii^' tViiin yuiir i'X|)t'i'it'iH'c, liti you think i)i<iliil)itioii was cvii- well
enforceil in tlic 'J'rri'itoi-ics '. No, I do not.
.'iHi't.'!. Ila\(' you coiisidci'cd the i|U('stion of ui'aiitinj,' i'oni|iciisatioM to lirt'wcrs and
distillers for their loss of plant and niiehiiiery in the event of the passai;e of a treneial
j)rohihitory law ? — I have not considered the tjuestion \ery much. It has. however,
been drawn to my attention since the C'onnnission sat.
.'{S'JIt. It has l)een urj,'ed that certain machinei'y and ]ilanl have to he put in liy
distillers and hrewr'i's in compliance with ilepartnii'iital rc^idat ion<. .ind that, moreoxcr.
the liinior has to he kept for a certain lenytli of time for rectilication |iiu|ioscs. |)o you
thiid< that under those circumstances remuiu'ration should lie made them f I thiid< if
jirohiliition was enacted it would oidy he riyht to do S(t.
A'// /■'"■ />/•. Mil,, 1,(1:
;{S-_>t.'). You spoke ahout the ditliculty of j,'ettinf; li(|Uor for medicinal purposes? —
Yes.
;>i^lit(>. We have heen told hy witnesses here and elsewhere that li(|Uor was never
di*Kcult to <ivt, anti certaiidy as re^'ards Fort ^laeleod tluit there was lu-ver a lack of it
liere f Xot in tiie town, hut people livinj^ at a distance from the town and in the
country exjierience some ditliculty.
fl
\\v.\. (lAVrX HAMILTON, of Fort .Macl(>od, on heiii^' (hily sworn, deposi-d ,i<
foHows :
/>'// Jiulije Mi-Donitlil :
.'If^li \~ . With what Church are you connected'? — T am a minister of the Preshvterian
Church.
.'hS24S. How lout; have you heen in tln' Torritoi'ies ?— -F came here on Scptemhi'r
5th, I SOI.
.■iS'_'40. I )i(l you come here from one of the other pro\inees; I'rom New l!runs\\i(k.
.'iS'J.")(). I'^'om what part ? From ltestit;ouche ('ounty.
.■iSL'.")l. Then you have seen the Territories hoth uiuler the so-called prohihitory
.system and also under license? I have.
.'i82'")'J. Which do you tind ))referal)le ? It will take me some time toexplain. ^\"hcR
T came here tirst, in 1S!)1, prohibition was in force. There were from six to ten saloons
here sellini,' openly, without let or hindrance, so far as I know.
.'SSl'").}. You mean that li(|Uor was exposed for sale to the fiuMic eve? \ never saw
it, but men j,'ot li(pior repeatedly and it seemed to be sold openly and publicly. There
were two licensed places. The.se were p(>rmitted, but there were also other places which
wei'c known to be sellini; op(>nly, six or ten at least.
.■iSl!r»4. Were stejis taken to stop the sale ? There were none. I do not rcmcnilier
a prosecution for violation of the law while I was here, and I luinht say I was Ik.mv for
eight moiitlis.
;i82o">. I )i(l you c^all the attention of the oliicials to these cases your.self ?— I did.
During the lirst six months 1 was here my healtli was very l)ad, T was sutl'ering from
throat trouble continuously, but that, \ repeat, was the state of aflairs.
.■{S2o(). What were those licensetl phices allowed to sell ? T think il was beer.
.■<82">7. Was it the four [)er cent beer? I do not kiu)W the law sulliciently well to
be able to state what kind of beer it was.
.'{S2r)S. Have you any knowledge of smuggling going on since you were residing
here?— I hi.ve no jiersonal knowledge : it was very difficult to get information. The
GEOuciK Allan Kknnedy.
420
tcnan
Wll.'H
,ll(MlllS
IT saw
■I'hc'ir
w liii-li
U'llllll'l'
1 ili.l.
it I'l'Dlll
T.
wrll 1.
■csiiliiii-
i. Tlu
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
triitfic was (•ontiniH'il to ii (•(M'tiiiii cxt'^it liy snmyglcrs, iind wlirn lln' |ii)licf couM not
discovci' |iiirti<'iil.irs ot' the iiiiillci', I did not c • nsidcr it my duty to turn detective, its I
h.'id 111) |iei'sonal knii\\lfdj,'e in I'cgiird to it, Tlu' liipiur luiisl liiivo liecn ln'ouyiit '"
liecduse it wiis sold.
.'iS'Jijil. I Ih\ e yuu li\ ed in any muntry wlji'ie iinihiliitinn \\;is in force.' Tliavc
liv(Ml in Ci rliester and wii'^ pastor of a ciuircli there wlien liicv had the Scott Act in
toreeantl jiri'viou-, to that I was in ^'(»rk (.'ounty, where [ tliink tliey iiad iiiohiliilion.
.'ISL'tlU. How did you tind tiie ,\et work .' -I knosv noliiinji; alxnit the County of
York, but in Coh'liester, in the rural districts , It all e\ents, it was well eiiforeed. In
the place where I was pastor, which was my di.-.trict and was eii;ht niitcs in Icnu'lli
and four in width, no li(|U'ir wlialc\er was sold.
;i."<-''>l. In NNJiat f)arl of the county was il It was tlie Township of Urooklield.
.'i(^-iL'. Do you fa\our prohihitioii in princi]ile? I tliiid: so because 1 think il is
;ulvanta;,'e()Us.
;if<L't!.'{. Do you eon.sider the license svsteni to Ik- wron<j? -Yes, I think it i.s wroni,'.
.'5f^L'<i4. ])o you consider it is sinfid do you think it is a sin to license the trallie?
— I think il is, accordinij to thi' view I have ; I consider the IfaHic sinful.
.■<Si*().'). In the e\-cnt of a yeni ral proliihitory law heinj,' enacted foi' the whole
country, do you think that brewers and distillers should be eoinpensated for their loss of
plant and machinery ! The (|uestion is: Have not the brewers and distillers and all
those enyai,'ed in the I ratlic made very lar<;e profits 1 We have to look at it in that way.
However, I am willing to , allow men their ow n opiinons. If the trallic was licensed by
the law of the land and by Act of Parliament aiid, therefore, was legalized, I do not
say they should not be paid reirmneration. At least they shoidd be rcnnini'ialed for
their plant.
.■?SLM')(i. A clergyman who ga\e e\idcnce in lirandon suggesteil that the
licensed d(!alers also should be compensated for t he balance of the year which there
licenses woultl yet luuctorun. What do yon il ik of that jiroposition '.' I thiid< the
Hi|Uor trattie is a singularly i)rotitable one and i liM-e engaged in ii would not need any
pecial remuneration.
Jlij ii^'.v. Dr. MrLn„l :
.'{8'2G7. Did you regard the system that was in operation hei
as a pi'ohibition system '/ — I'^nless a system prohibits liipiors
laws are enforced, 1 would not call it prohibition.
•'iS2t)H. Do you think the condition in Colchester, where you lived under local pro-
hiliition, was preferable to any form of license of which you have known, including the
license system here .' -The use of licpior was confined to about sexcn families out of a
hundred. So far as 1 could judge, as pastor, there were lunety families in which liiiuor
was not used at all. I belonged to a temjx'rance .society and had public meetings in the
winter about every month on the teinjierance (piestion, and the conclusion was that they
were enlightened on the sid)iect and they were kept eidightencd.
."iSlMi'J. Do you think the etl'ect of prohibition there was good to the community at
large.' 1 think, from my knowledgi,' as a pastor, that the iis(' of licpioi' in families can be
easily disc(jvered in the effect on those who use it i generally domestic relations are dis-
turbed by the use of liijuor. It is considered one of the damaging features and one of
the worst engines we ha\(' to contiMid with a> ('hristian ministers
before 1st of May
leui^ sold ;ind sees that its
421
!«"■
II
ilfl
m-
M
Hi
1(1-1
Litinor Tniffic — North-west Territories.
follow.''
JullN IJOLIJICS, ,it' Knil .Ma. 1. nil. \\<<{r\ k.'.'|)«'i', 1)11 Itciiiyduly
suinii, «l('|M)sc(l as
/li/ ,/in/i/r Mt-lhuiiilil .
liSlJTO. llow Imi;; liii\t> you iTsidnl in ihc 'I'ciiilKrii's ,' (her 17 years.
■'if<L'71. |)ui'iii^' all tliat lime liavf vnu icsidcd at .MaclriMJ .' I Iia\«' I'csidcd in
dillert'iit jjlaccs in tlic Tcriilurii's.
.'icH'_*72. Mow loiiy liavt! ynii hoi'ii at Macicnd coiitimiuiisly f — A litt Icnvt'i' t'diiiyi-nrN.
.■tSl.'7;). Wiicii you lii'.st eaiiio to tlii! 'ri-i'iittn'if.s wa.s lliiM't' a jici'init .sy.-itciii in t'ni'c.'c .'
—The ])i'()iMl>itioii .sy.stcni wius in t'orw. You could get a iici'iiiit, althuu;;li «<• iicvci-
th(iui.'lil of it at lii-.st. Init I hclicvc it was part cjf the law.
ilu'll I
■.\x:
■\f^'2.~i\. Was lii|U(pi' ;,'cit in dMiiiit,' t liosc days .'— Yes. I saw lii|iiiif in t lie 'rcfi'itni-ies
caiiic hci'i'
(•I.
\)n
vuu know ho\- It caoK' in
I til
it cami' in with tlic tiadeis.
.'IH27<). AVIicit^ did it eoiiio in
.■is:
It
-dit
was in'iiuiihr across the imundarv
)in .' Ki'iihi .Montana.
the lioundarv ,' -Y'e.s.
;tSl.'7M. W'a.s it alcoholic li(|iioi', and if so what was its (|iiality
takini; sonic, hut I did not take a ureat deal.
Y
I I
ecollect
throat.
■■!SL'7i*. What was it like? — It was like soinething iiretty hot as it went down your
;i8l.'S0. It has hceii statod hv some witnesses iiefore this t'oniniissioii that some
people usiii!,' lii|Uorlike it to scratch when it passes down .' Y
when it went down.
.'tSiiSj. Were there many |
es. It
'atchc<l tlie throat
icolile sellliii; 111 t llovc dav-
Not that I know of.
:iSL'S-.'. Y
oil say iiijUor was liroiijilit in liy traders. Were they men who peddle.
d?-
, e.s, some.
."tS^S;?. |)iil they peddle the yoods .' - Tliey !.'ave li.pior for hutlalo n
el'V
3SL>S1. Was th
litM
.•iSi>8r). .\s ih
lere any coiisideralile while po|)ulatioii in
the Territ"
rhit
lati
e wliite population increasei
hat
occl
Iheii?-
irred ? Th
tradiiiLj with the Indians dro))ped oil' altof,'elii
.'jSi'sO. Did the li(|Uor stay out ? Not altoi,'ellier, it iio\er stayed out, it was creep
1111; in a little more ail the tin
;!Sl's7. -Vs it
.■i8:2S8. Did it come
the railway was huiit.
crej)t in was it still sniiiy;
'''led across the lioundarv
111 in the same way
es, it iie\er came from the east until
382i'^!l. After thi^ railway washiiilt it lieiraii to come in in that direction, I sup
— Y(
jipose :
:{8l'90. in the latter days, hefoiv the
li(|Uor, in the .Macleod district, mostly liroui,'lit across tii
license law came into ton-e, was the su]>])ly ot
dar\- ; Part ly fi > >iii across
the boundary and jiartly hy waij;ons that would come up from Winnijiej,'. It was hy f a
lietter liipujr, at all events it .H<'eme(l to be better than the Montana whisky.
.'i82!ll. Can you say wliether, diiriiif; your ac(|uaiiitaiice with Mii
li'
.sold openly and illicitly befoii' the license la
w came in
openly ni
a way. T
lere was no ])i
iblic b,
d it was not al
to force .' — The li(|
[uor
iKU' was so
1<I
Ad
lys sold over a oar
bar. F
years lia\(' elapsed since I lived [lerinanciitly at Macleod, and my evident
to wliat was done since that time.
e IS in I'ei'anl
allowed.
.'{S2!Il'. We understand there was open s.de ? — The sale was mostly beer, which
Bif Itrv. Dr. MiLeod.
.•{S21i:5. AVas it foui
per
cent beer? — It was what I ilo not care to call it, for it
not fit to drink. It was sold for beer and was allowed by law,
Bij Jiahji' McDoniild :
.'iSilM. Y'c)n are referrini,' to the J'erritory before you came here? — Yes
38L't)r). Hef..r<' that tl
lere was oeer, or w
hatever it may have been called? — It was
beer, liut I do not know what the stuff was ; I could not drink it.
John Holi.iks.
422
1
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.SH'J'MI. Was iKi othiT lii|U<ir -.old tlii'ii .' Wlii-iky w.is siilil ^iiiifptitidiisly.
•'iMl>i)7. Wi'ii' otlicf c'dnijuiuiids ii^cd, |ijiiii-killf'r iiml lii|iiids ut' tliiit sort ?— I l)i'-
Ik'VI' HU. *
.'iS^jDJH, Y'ltii liiiM' nil kniiwlcdjfp (tf tluit yourself? I l)clii'\f it was mi.
•'iMlMCt. So t'ar' as yuiir kiiiiwlfdifc ;,'ncs, in how many [ilafcs in .MiicccmI was lii|iirir
sold illicitly .' I could not stall' from |ici'soiial kno\vlrd;;r.
.'iS.'tOO. Can you stair from hearsay,' Yi's, I lii'lic\c I can I'ouni llii'in ii|i.
.'JS.'JOl. How many coulii you count up? 1 can count up aliout I'li. l''rom mcuio-
I'anda which I have, I cim count up tilK>ut iMt.
'ts;|():.». On what do you liasc xnii' liclicf that tlici'c was tliat nund)cr scllini: ■ "n
tlic statements made liy other iicoplc.
.'iS.'iO.'i. Mow was till" liijUor olitaincd liy these pcopli' to sell ' It was jl;oI hv w lial
you call smui,'i;lin^, that is, from men who ran the unilerj,'round route.
•■!S;t((|. How was it lirouf,'lit in .' liy toams and wajions.
.'tS.'iO."). 1 )o you know whether iii|Uor was liroui^hl in concealed in packages .' Xo.
I do not know it personally.
.'iS.'lOli. Yuu do not know thai liouor was liroinjlil in in suu'ar liarrels and liaircls of
rice and molasses f- No.
.■)N.'(()7. lla\eyou had any ex)perience in ••anchin,!,' ( Yes. for ten years.
;iS.'tO,S. |''rom your experience, do you lielieve a ]>i'(ihiliitory l;iw couhl lie enforced
in tiie North-west Teri'i lories ,'-- I liardly tliiid< it could lie.
.'ts.'iO'.i. So far as your know Icdi^e of the North-\\ est .Momited j'olicc itocs, do you
think the foi'ce atlemjitcd faithfully to dischar'ne their duties .' I think they did dui'inj;
fonner years. I think theri? was slackness ilui'injL;; a few years, liut thai was owiuLi to
the police ff!(!linu tlmt they were not supported : they felt that it was of no use t<i try
and enforce the law .
.■iS.'ilO. They were not supported, liy whom .' liy the people.
.'iS.'ll I. \'i,\\ nu'an liy the community .' Yes. liy the community.
;'f"<.'{ I L'. Was the sentiment of the community, then, not in fa\our of the enforcement
of tlie proliihitoi'v law? - It was not favouralile.
.'iS.'il.'i. I )o you attriliute thai sentiment of the people to so many places carryinn
on the trade/ Y'es. There was the feeliliji that the law was an uniu.--tone: that it
was made liy a (iovermuent •J.dOi) miles away : that it was made aj,'ainst the wishes of
the people and wa.s directed a^aiiist somelhini; that the people wanted ; that it was
ai,'ainsl their feelin;,'s ,ind ideas alto<;ether, and that it \vas not wr<in!:; to break that law.
■"iS.'ll t. IJid you lind a dilleivnt sentinieut ])i"es'ailini,' aj;aiiist that law than aj.'ai!>st
any ot her law ? Y'es. While the pe<iplc were willing to oliey laws !.'eiierally. they
wduld lireak those liipior laws without compunction at all. I have heard ]ieople say
that they wouM do so. and T ha\(' Ih-ard them say thai they would imt lie legislated for
as to what they should eat ami what they should drink.
;iS;il."i. Have you heard .statements as to the ({uantities of lii|Uor sinui;i,ded in? —
Yes. They would lirini,' it in in fi\(> or ten U'lU'm kej,'s, or 100 and I'O!) gallons at a lime.
."iS.'UCi. How far Would they have to draw it ! — About l!:.'") miles froai I'lenton.
.'iS.'!17. l)o you know anythini,' as to the prices they olitained for the liipior / -Onlv
from statements made to me. They would say that they paid •"r-'i a j;allon for it and
they would ;ienerally got 8" <>i' ■'^'^ <"i gidlon for it.
.'iH.'ilS. What was the pric" per drink ? — I'^ifty cents a I'riiik i,'enei'ally.
Ji>/ Jiei: Dr. MrLcocl:
."iS.'U!). Were the ti'ails from the boundary up here closely delined : did they have
to follow ihe trails or could they come over any part of the country they pleased ?—
There are cei'tain ci-ossiniis of rivers and they would have to make for them. You cannot
cross a river anywhere and you ha\e to make for the fords, and thai was the dilliculty.
.'iS.SliO. Were they numerous? They were not, liut there were se\fral of them.
."iS.'SLM. l,)o you think it was possible for tlie authorities to guard those fords and .so
prevent the smugglers crossing ? — Xo, not to prevent sniugiL'ling. They would stop at
those fords, and the smugglei's would find others and cross at them. The force was luit
sulliciently large to be on duty all the time.
42:^
iliii
i!"
■\\
J'1 iii
Ml
84 <':
i
I
(I (I!
i
il
fa i
mi
jsr
'i'
; r '
!
Liquor Trallic — North-west Territories.
;!S.'V_'"J. l[i)\\ muiiy inciiilM'is uf tin' t'onc wuuld there be nn <Uity at uno time? — T
could not tell you
.'1.^ .">:.'.">. 1 .sii|j|i(isc it was ail (■.4al)!iNhc(i trailu r(\^'uiariy larriciloii ,' — 'i'l icy generally
well' safe on liic trails, lail ll"'y wuuld cross a t'ord that you or 1 would never think of
ci'ossiiii;.
'.\S.t-2 [. So you do not, think liicy crossed at the regular turds, hut t'ound other t'ords
at which to cross? 1 know t'roiii what they liavi' said to nie, tisat they generally looked
u|> some torils ot their own. They would make," road to it, and ot course in wintm'
lime tliev would lra\cl anywhere as they ( luld get the wagons down on the ice.
lii^.'lL'."). Sjicaking ot' the laxity of tlie ollic'.ils ot late years, you altrihulc il to the
tact that 1\h' jieople di 1 not supiiorl the police. |)o you think they lieiic\cd it was the
<luly oi' till! police to .'i.i'orct' the law, and they, as people, need nut cuiiceni thein.selves
particularly ahout it .'I think that was the t'eelini.' ot a teu. The police t'olt tliat they
were not uiiipurted and tlie wlioli thing gradually fell through and no notice was t; ken
of the law dining the later period.
.'1S."."_'(). We ha\e heard in some j.!a< es in the Terrii ries that the police were li| jied,
that thi'\ nTei\ed money from the smugglers and illicit sellers. I >iil that uhtain here
or nut .' : helicxe il did with respect to some uf the constaliles of the t'urce, liiit there
were surie just as anxious to do their duty as then were some to sell themsehcs. As a
hody r.do think they were earnest ni irying to catch smugglers. I'.ut of course indi
vidual cases occurred 1 do not thi'>k il was a genera' thing.
■'ISIl'JT. Was there any prupurtion of the jiolice who desired enforcement uf the law
ill .Macleod .' - Tlu're were a few who desired to see the law enforced in .Macleod, luil thev
l)la lied the system.
"'^.'il.'S. What feature of the system djil tliey hlame.' Some hlamed the permit sys-
tem ill consequence of which the police <li(l not know what to do. The | pie felt that
they did no! want to he legislate(l against and so the law was nul enforced.
."iS.'i'J'.t, The law was there wluii the peuple came there.' Certainly, they must
lia\i' known it.
.iSuipd. \\'uuld it ha\i' liecii a fair prupositiuii tu ha\e ^ulimilted lu the people uf
the whole TiU'ritories the (juestio!! as to v\he||ier they wanted a prohiliilory eiiactuienl
or a license law ? Of coursi^ it would he fair.
.'ISIi'il. That was nul done/- -No, exi e] \ through the Legislai lire.
.■iS.">:'r_'. Was this i|uest,ion made an issue at the election .' -It was tried to he made
an issue, liut I he feeling of the people was strongly against making it an issue at the
election
.'is:!;!;'). I was speaking uf the .Macl 1 distiict! 1 >ow n lierewc t'eU thai we had
il. I.' enough prohil)h loll. 1 mean suppose a man had .-uiiie uut as a piuhiliiti(ui caiidi
date, I>e inighl as well liaxc stayed at Imme liiH'aiise he wcnild nut lia\e in en elected
as the pe >ple had had enuugh jiruhihitiun.
."iS.'l.'l i. Have you heen keejiilig liulel ev . .iu. s:'' Macleud .' Yes.
.'is;!.').'). J)i(i yoii have a har prim lo Isl of .May ! ist .' 'S'es. I had a license
before that, under 1 ii.' fuiir |ier ceni .syslem. I had nuhai ''efuie that time. I ke|)i
liotel for three years wiih>.'0 :. ocense.
.'is.'!:!!'). Weliasc lieen luld tliruiighuiil the Territui'ie^ that after ISSS, when I he
four (ler cent arr.a'igement came in, that arraiigemcni to sell enaliled a man tu sell,ni\
thing. 1 )o you know anything ahuut that .' It did nut du su.
.'iiS.'i.'l7. 1 >id it L;i\(' t he seller any |icriiii-;^iuii tu du su f I du nut think su. Itdiil
iiotrllict the trade duwu here.
.'i.Sli.'iS. I )u yuii knuw I hat when a man had a li<'e^se lu sell fuui' per cent I r In-
sold, whisky ' lie may have done su.
;iS."i.">ll. I think we heard to-day that there are unl\ twn licensed plai'cs here and
they are buth liutels ! ^'es.
.'iS.'iiO. .\re there any w hulesale licenses issueil ' There are I liree w hulesale license .
issued.
liS.'Ul. I'll you think there are any other places '-elling, I mean places witlioiii
licenses f I hardly think so, I do not know.
•Ions l|ui.i,ii;s.
424
FMi
57 VictoT'L
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
license
I kept
ere iUliI
liS.'lll.'. hiiyciu tliink tlie aiiiuuiil of ilrinkiiii; li;is lessened sinee liiese jilaees li,i\t'
lieen lieeiised '. I tliitik it li;is hjssened.
.'iS.'il.'!. I )() Villi lliiiik llie lie(Misees (il)ser\(i the [ii'ii\ isiuns ot' tlie law.' I tliink
I hey (in.
•"iS-')44. .\re llie houses closed during the |ii'ohiliited liours.'- 1 think -.o.
.■if<.'i I"). And ai'e not open on Sunday?^ J. think not, so t'ar as I am eoneeineil
iiiyseif 1 do not.
.'tf^.i Id. .\n<l you are one ot them.' N'es.
.■iiS."i|7. I )o yon know as reifai'iU the others .' I sii|i]iose they oliser\e the l,i\\.
./■.lis. What i> I he least i|na'ilily that i-an lie sold under the \\hole-~ale licence .'-—
I I hild< one liol t le.
.■!8;M'.I. I )o wholesalers retail iiy the uiass ? I can seareely say that, I d<inot know.
.■?S.'!."i(l. Do you suspect them .' -I -^iispeet one wholesale place of retailing,', 1 do nut
^ll>peel the rest.
:!S."i."i|. Uilu' store if the llud-on r>;i\ ■' ompanv one of the whole-i'e )ilaces?
—Yes.
."{f'^io'J. I u as anxious to know whether that eompanv did a w holi<sale liiisiness!
-Y.'s.
.'iS.'I.'k'i. |)(i\ou know whether ilie Hudson iiay Company had any .--hipnients of
liipior prior to the license law .' 'Tliey had permits.
."i.^^.''.")!. For larjre (|uaidities ; 'N'es.
.■'iS.l.'i.'). A'h.it did I hey do with liipior afiei- it <'ame in .' They iiave it to any one
u 111) wanted it .
."i^.'i.'il'i. I )o von mean that w lien a part\' yot a |ierndt he woidd send il to them to
he tilled and they would ship it In t he i-onsi^nee .' \'es. 'I'hey were imporlei'^. Take
Miv>elf : r ixii to them and show that I ha\e a permit and w.int lo>;el the compan\ to
lill it The liipior afterwards conn s in tlirouuli them. It l■.lnll•■^ in ihrouuh iliem \>v
express, ami it is handed to Ms when it arri\es.
.■iS.'i.lT. 'i'hey import foi- you .' ^'es,
.')S.'ir)S. Speakiiiif of the pernnt- vou ha\e had: I'rior to 1st May la>t did \ou m'l
permiisfoi' whisky, hrandy an<l 'hat kind of li.|uoi'.' No, prior to \^\ May la^l was
111 fore I opened ms' bar. Kor tiiree years I was without a liai', and | rior to thai lime I
'ioi a permit foi' my own ])eisonal use.
."iS.'i.")!). '{'Ill' liiplor was not for >ale .' No.
."iS.'SliO. ^'oii had no liar up lo 1st .Ma\ ' .My liar was opened Lisl .\u^Usl, iS'.ll.
:iS."i(il. Was tlia' 'it'ler sou had a license to sell foUl' |ie|- een. lieer .' Ivxactly.
.'IS.itii.'. .Since 'In :' ymv license has eoNcied everylliini; .' ^'es.
."iS;!!!."). Wiiat have ^ on to pay for a license .' !^'2i)i) a year.
."iS."ili|. |>.iy(,u|iay anylhinu; to the ilisiricl.' No. It is mil incorjioral ed and
I heie is no on,- ' o collect .
."iS."i('i."i. As an hoiel man cominu into contact with tic people and as one oliscrvini;'
what is iioiiie- on in the country, have you not iced w hel her the liipmr t rallie in il s ellects
iiijures or lieiielits the community f I couM answer t hat ipiestion hoth ways.
:'i.s:iri(;. Please answer it. ^'es and im, h 'cause tliere is .i pari of I he commniiily
leuhom it is in jurious and t here is ;inot her part who are ureal 'y helped li\ il.
■ i^'i'iT. ^'ou refer to I he licpior lii-en .ed I r.ide as il is carried on. To wlial pari of
llie coinmiiiiit V is it lieneticial .' To ihe parlies who ii-c liijUor, and of course to ihe
liaveller.
.'iS.'itiS. To whom is it an injury ! To those who drink to excess.
."iS.ili'.t. I >oes the law allow liipior to he sold lo those who drink lo execs-,,' '{'he
!:iu .illow s wlioh'salers lo sell o\i'r one Imllle and if a man drinks ,i lioiili' that is
iliiiikmii '"' ext.'ess.
."iS."l7ll. Is there no check on that .' Nol on the v holes.ijer. 'I'lie onl\ check is in
llie man himself.
■'i'"*-!7l. I suppose it- is scarceU- necessaiN to ask whelher you lieiie\e in prohiliil ion
"I iioi ; If you ask me, 1 say I do nol.
."iS.'!7-. l>o\oii olijeci to ihe 'iriiici|ile of pi'ohilitioii or I o the jiract icaliilit V ? —
T.li.iih.
425
I ;
1'
I
•4
,1 ,
rr
r^
Liqnor Tmftic — Xoi-tli-west Territories.
Ilij Jndije ^Iv.Dowild :
:\><:\~:\. Sjicuk.nfr iihout tlic class who use intoxicating li(|iiO'', I desire to ask this
questiou : tako I'M men wiio use intoxicating he\ei'ages, what jirojiortion wijiild use
tlieni to excess' — I siiouhl say, according to my ohsefation. 10.
.■5S;i71. Aiid the othcf ilU wotdd use them in moderation '.' Yes.
.■is;i7">. Take th(! settlcrsot' this I'ouiitry. You lia\-e a class of people coming in here
fi'oni (Ireat ihitain, (irnnany. l''i'ance and othei' countries, people accustomed t(t the
use of ales, wines, whisky and other beverages. It' tliey liad to chooser between a countr\-
for settlement that has a licen.se law and where they may obtain what li(|uorthfy wi-^h to
use, and a country where they would not he allowed to use li(|uor, which country would
more likely obtain that settlement .' -8o far as my opinion goes I would say the
couuti'v where there was a license law in t'oi'ce and where they could get the liipior to
which they had been accustomed.
.'iS.'iT'i. I'^'om your ranching experience in the North-west and coming into coniaii
with the ]ie()ple, what did you ti'"..! t(, be the sentiment of the ]ieo])l(> ,' The sentijiiriil i-
mostly in favour of lieense.
.'?S.'i77. Was it opposed to the ]iri)hil)itiiin system ' It was greatly opposed i(j the
system.
."{H.'iTS. Then you have found alsu thai the piuple nbject to li^gislation being foiviMJ
up<)n tliem of a chai'acter that they do not want !-^'es, that was just it. There w,i-
great dissatisfaction with respect to the law which was forced on them, ami ;i diffennt
state of tilings from w liich they had l)een acevistumeil. They hid been trained to ,iu(!t;i
for themselves in i't>gard to those matters, and they f ' lliey wein? being intertered with
as regards what they considered to be, and what I coiit>ider to be, our rights.
.")S.'179. You think in the c()mmunity there exists a sentiment in regaicl to rlie
prohibitory law ditterent from the sentiment in regard to other laws '. — Yes, untlouljtedly.
/1/j U'l: Dr. Mrt.rnd:
.'5Sl5f^O. iSpeaking about the percentage of people drinking to excess : about what i-
the percentage of people in the Macleod distrit't who driid< more or less? I should sav
about I'll ]ier ( cut.
.'iS.'iSl. And about |l> p(M' cent driidc to excess? — Ye.s, that is my opinicm from n \
own observation.
.'iS.'iS'J. ffaxe you observed whether among t he '.ill jier cent wIk. drink moderalel,
th.ere is a tendency to drink to e.xcess ? — Not beyond the In jjer cent.
.■iiS;}S.'i. lTa\e you observed whether many young men. boys, lia\" the driiikiiiL:
habit? -l)oys are not alloweil to obtain drink.
.SS:i84.' !)oys under what age? )" think about IS.
.'<X.'?8."). 1 1 a\-e you ob.sei\-ed whether there are many between 1.'^ and li-'i who li,i\>
the drink habit \ — 1 may say that in Macleod thei'e are few under I ."^ who get lii|Uiii.
.TSMSI'i. Ha\e you obserxi'd whether licensed places are a temptation to young iiiin
to congregate (here anil acipiire the drink l.abit ? — I do not think so. in the lirst plaiv
they would not be allowed to coiigregate there.
.'IS.'IST. I refer to young men of '1\ '. N'es.
.'iS.'SSS. \\'ould young men about i!t be allowed? There are not \ cry many of iliem
My obNer\'ation at all events would not .imoiint to much on that line.
.'iS.'tS'.t. |la\e you obser\e(l whether members of the .Mounted Police foiie I'v
generally drinking men '. They are about the same as other ilrinking men, a great many
do not, take li(|Uor at all, and there are not many of them who drink to excess.
DS^illl. Then as a body they dn d<, but not toexce.ssl The police have their 'ami
canteen.
.'IS.'ilM. They only sell lieei', I belieM> ,' 1 do not think a great iiiaiiy take aidi'iii
sjiirits, because with thcim it is about the same as with the general community.
;!.^.'{!)L'. About, IKt pel' cent of them drink- something f — I should judge so. My
experience, however, does not exteni! very far in I hat respect. The commissioned otrnei-<
Would be better alile to tell you and answer all iple^tions.
.loliN llol.l.lK.s.
426
iiiiii
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
:!S:!l);i. Dnyini liiuc nuu'li triivi-l in I'ort Macleod ? .Mui'c oi' less. Sonictiiiu's it is
very .slitii iind ill other times it is \-ery ijiisy.
•'iS."5i)4. Are tlioy f^eneraliy ediiiiiiercial tiii\eilers ! Not j;eiieially, but there is al-
ways (|uite a lot of them.
.is:!!)."). Have you observed whether 90 per cent of tlie tra\ellers eoiuinit to your
hotel are drinUiiijf men? I do not think my ex]ierience has extemh'd so fai', I ilo not
think r have looked to see whether a mai drinks or not.
;)S;)'.)il. Could you run a hotel without a iiarf- No.
.'is.')'.)?. AVhy .' — It would not ])av. I tried it for lliree year^ straight alouu' and I
know.
/(.•^ .'!!)>!. Are we to understand that the men who do not drink and who ]iat loni/.e
your hotel, do not jiay for what tiiey itet. l''or instance, f j;o to vciur Intel ;ind you
I i large ii^li jier day and 1 do not iiatr<ini/e your i)ar : iloes the rat<' of .>^"J pel day pay tVu-
what r jret? — Yes, that would p ly all right.
.■Jf^.S'Ji. If everybody did liiat 1 suppo.se they would pay for w hat they got accord-
ing to your charge ? A'es, l)ut you do not put the circumstances fully. Thee are a
u'reat in;iiy p(M>iil.- living in M icleod who ha\c to stay here and I r.innot charge 'hem •*"_'
l^"rday liecause it would Im- More than they could pay.
.■v*<400. Would \ou charge a sulticieiit anmunt for feeding and boardini; tlieinf
— Ves.
."iSlOl. If SI), uciulil no' that pay? The m.-iigin woiihl be sd small that it would
not ]iay. There are mtiny expenses you cannot charge, such, tor example, as lia\ing
men wait in the hotel. Moreover, travellers do not come right along ste.idily, hut
the expenses would go along just the siime. "S'
iiotol sudi a ](rice as you have mentioned.
ou canno
t cliarg
c ;i man staviiiLr in t he
.•5HI02. Then
IS it not a fact that you ;irc t'harging total al)staincrs \s
ha< th
tually cost you .'--You might be ch.irging uh.it they actually cost, but you ha\(' to .1
end on the amount of tra\(
1"
ihel
( >f course, sometimes, instead of three or four comiiiif to
louse, a dozen iiuiii may come.
The iiuml)er of servants i.s not increased lunther
my general expenses, hut the travel is increased, so that my pay is inci'c.ased and T
able to pay my way. If 1 have only a few guests my general ex[)eiises go on all \\\i-
' as if J had a great many.
.■3SiO.'{, And vou ha.e to fall back on the bar ; — It is necessarv to f;
ill hack OI t Ill-
is K) I. Is it fair to the bar '■• make it support the house, .•mil is it fair In thr p
pic who do not patronize tiie bar to make thi'in pay? — That is t
lia\e to go by facts. You ha\(! to billet guests and fix a rcgul.ir r.-div
rates ;ire tliosi^ that I can allord to gi\c to the tr.ivclling publii/.
inc in t lieorv, i)iii you
M
V ri'uulai
.3810."). I think vou should change fully tiie men w
lo do not patronize
the b.
That is your ojiinion. (>f course if I met many nice men whu preferred your jilaii, I
if <'et them to f
oilow It.
cmniit. how(.'ver, run my estjiblishment mi otl
.'is I )(■). Clertainlv this si'cms ti
thi> fact, that the m.'iii whu docs nut palrunize
I' bar practically does not ]iay for what he gels . .\s I stated befurc, he might jiay
d he might o\t'r-pay. It would depend ou the rate charg(!il. .-^'lMJU a day would pay
427
lij
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-west Territories.
I
AV. Jl. PATRICI\, of Foi't Miudcod, r.-uiclicr, on liciniiduly sworn, doposcd us fol-
lows ; —
Bij Jtuhj)- MiDitniild :
."5^407. How long have you resided in llie Teriitoi-ics ? -Ahotit Hi years off and
oil most of till! time.
.']S10,S. Have you resided ill diirer(^iit places'/ — Yes, pretty nuu'li all over the Ter-
ritori(!s.
.'lN-10'.'. I'^i-om what sectioi) of the country did you come to tlie Territories? — From
Maniloha.
.'iSUO. Have you heen at jvlniontun, Prince Allierl and other jilaces?— Yes, in the
early days.
;'iS-H 1. All along the Iniundary also. I suppose? — 100 or -'itJO nnles east of here.
.')('"! 11 ■_'. During all the time you have lived in the Territories have you been engaged
ill ranching? — 1 ha\e bei>i) at ditlerenl occupations, driving cattle, ranching and farm-
M'
ill'
Vr
l(i~iH.'>. Then you ha\t' been engaged in the ranching husi'icss ?- -Yes.
•'iStl I. And have ynu done a great deal in connection with fanning .' — 1 have been
faiiiiiiig the whol(> lime.
.■iiS-H-"). When you tiist came to the country was the |)rohibitory law in force .'-
There was no law.
.'iSfl'i. And when did the prohibition law come into force? —It came in wh'Mi liie
North-west .Mounted Police came in.
;!JS-117. >Su far as your observation goes did the Xorth-west .Mounted Police honestly
endeavour to do their duty ? - Yes, to a certain e.xtent, to the best of their ability.
.■i841S. You think the force, as a whole, mach? aii honest attempt to carry out the
law?— Yes.
.■<S41!*. There may have been indiv.dual inst oices of failure you think ? — Yes. 1
supjiose so. 1 do not know any casein particular. There were some reports to that
pfl'ect, but no j)roof was gi\en.
.SS420. ]lave you reason to beliexe that into.xicating li(|Uois were smuggled intotlir
country to ;iny extent ? Y'es. I am sure of it.
."'li^lL'l. I'^'oin wl at point did it come.' -From the I'nited States and from tlic<a>i,
and from e\ cry point.
;iS12"_'. l''rom the east '. Yes. most of i^^^ came from .Manitoba.
384'2."5. ])o you know much about the (|uality of li(iuo>- that « as brought in fruin
those ])laces ? Some of it was very poor stuff.
."is l'J4 Do you know how it came in, in what shajie ?- In all shapes.
;{S425. 1 )o you know the class of persons who brought it in? lliey were all kind-.
.'}84'20. Did not all the men sell other goods at the same time ] — Not that Iknowuf.
.■5S4'_'7. It seemed to be a branch of business to itself ?- Yes.
.'{S4"_'S. Is li(|uor brought in from .Montana .' Yes.
.■<84'J!t. What distance would it have to be brought ] — .M.ieleod is aboi^t ^l'2'^ iiiih-
froni l'"ort l>enton and (lieat l''alls, Montana.
•iSl.'K). Do you know if any caches were jirovided where the li(|Uor was hidileii .'
I do not know of any, but there certaiidy must have been some.
.'JSl.'U. Was the li(]uor brought in carts? — Yes. and in wagons.
.■|84-iL'. How do you sui)pose the snuiggliM's were iible to a\()id the Xorth-«e^i
Mounteil i'olice .' -it was \crv hard for the jiolice to watch so many at a time. TIm'
wlioli' population was in favour of getting in lii|UiU', .uid so they got it in.
.'ISI.'i.i. Did th(> length of the boundary cause the ditliculty ? — It certainly iliil
There is. of couise, a long stretch of bouiidarv, and there was scai'cely any settlement ai
that time.
:!Sl.'il. .\s settlement increased, did it right i he dithculty .' - I do not think it did ;
I rather think it increased it.
.■t8|;t."i. Do you know anything as to the crist of liipi
th
or in t hose i
davs ? Th
was from SIO to .•?40 a gallon
\V. II. pATlilCK.
428
Iff;
l:(',
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'{S4.')<i. Tukc till' fciuiitry tlii'ouiili as you kut'w it, ilid ilici'<^ fi])pear to hi- much
liciuof ill the hiiiiils ot' tlif jiciiph' .' Pn^tty lU'arly all the ]ii'(.j)lc wlieri'vor ynii went
iijipearcd to iiavc lii|ii()r, more or less.
.■ifS437. Were thert' any sections or towns or xilla^'cs where li(|Uor was (>.\|i(isi'il
i)]iiMily for sale '/ — Decidedly, but very seldom.
.SS|;iS. I )id you ever see li(|Uor lirou<;ht in and sold in other iiacka;,'es, such, for
instance, as barrels of I'iee, sii^ar or molasses .' I never did myself, but I know it
I'aiiie in in that way. I have often heard it sjiokeii of.
.■?S1.')'J. l)idyou in'er hear of use being made of jjain-kiiler, .lainaica ;L,'in,i;er and
substances of that kind? — Yes, fre<iuently.
.■{S440. Did you eviM' see red ink ustMl?--No, I cannot say I did
•'57441. 'i'akinj,' the jieople of the Territories as you ha\'e know ii llii'iii.
were tle'V
])eo|)le who were moderate in their drinkiiii,' and teiii|ieiate on the whole, or were tiiey
<itlierwise .' Y'es, they were as moderate as the ]ieoj;'e of other countries I have been in.
.'?f<44L'. Takiii;; the bulk of the people, they were moderate, you say? — Yes.
:WU:\. Y(
that
;aiiist [H'oliibition .' Certainly.
.'18444. And in fjuour of the jieojile lia\i
your I'xporieiu'e was that the general siMitiment prevaileo
it thev wanted
.'5S44r). From what vou know of the 'J'erritories and your exiierience, d(
I vol!
beli
that a ,i;eneral prohibitory law for the whole l)ominioii could l;e eflect ually eiriied out
(I enforced ! — No, I do not think it
lid 1
could he done,
.■iS44(). JIave v<)u seen the workintf of the license law since 1st of May ? — Yes.
.'<SI47. How does it ajijiear to
Mient on prohibition
it is much better ai
.'i844S Take Macleod before 1st of }t\ny and since that tii
places for sellinn' before than since the license law has been in fo
; a ijreat iiiiprove-
iie : were there mon!
Tl
lere were tar
mure
bef(
iS4Ht. t.'aii
you ,t,dve us an estimate of how many there weri
I think there W(
ihout eiiflit dilFerent iilaces in town where you could <'et jrood liouoi'
/ill /iVr. Dr. M.'L.od.
iS450. You
.'584.") 1. Has there
ive liad experience
ill rt>L(ard to the Indians, I
nuicli sale of li(nior made to Indian
ippe
'Y
-Not of l;ite years.
.'SSI')'-'. Was there in the early days ?- Yes.
.'ill b").'i. ^^'as liipior given in exchange for furs ? -Y'es.
.'iS4r»|. Did the police put a stop to that? Yes. 1 think the fact of tli
ndians getting lietter has beitn more due to their not obtn
Ise. and they had noihimt with which to 'iiiv it.
.Id
imins' liiiuor tiian
th
any
th
:),S4ri."). |)id the traders in the old days barter vitli the Indians '. — Yes.
.'iSb")!!. Did the police put a stop to that? — Yes. They stopped that all v\
'iiougli, of course.
.'lS4-")7 Have you noticed siine 1st of .Ma\' tlia.t there has been ai
iliimkenness anion
'St the I ndians since tl
at all events not until to-day.
1 increase in
aw came into ell'ect '.- - I do not think
Today 1 saw in Macleod the first Indian drunk that
le license
I have .seen for five years.
.'is |.")S. Ar(> vou awar(
e whether Lliere has licen a
iiv ditlerence amoiii; the Half-breeds
No, they got as much liipior before the license law as they do now.
The C
>minission adjou
riu'd, to meet at Banti'.
429
iiii
m y
J! !*■''
P=
Liquor Traffic — Nortli-'we.st Territories.
BANFI'', Nnvonibcr !•_>, ISDJ.
Till- Hiival ('(Hiiiiiissidii cm the Liinior 'I'ratlic mot lieic this iljiy.
I'rcnent :
Jl IMiK .M(|)n\AI,l». IvKV. l)l(. M('|ji;<lll.
Fli.WK HARPKH, of Hiinff, hisjitctor (.t the Nrntli-west .Mounted Police, on
hcinij; only sworn, (l(']iose(l as t'ollov —
By Jnil'jc McDoii.ald :
Hf<4.")9. How long havB you rcsiiifd in tlie Tei'i'itorif^ .'--Clo.se on l:t yc^ufs.
."iiS-kiU. Dill you fonie lioi'e tVoin one of the othei- pnjvinces .' — No, I came tVoiii
England.
.■iSliil. I •iiiing the tinio you havcliccMi in the Tei'riloiics lia\eyou hceri at other
places than Hanli'.' — Yes, at Maple (!reek, iiethhiidge, Macleod, llegiiia and ot hei
places.
l)Sl<ili. Have you, during the whole time of \ our I'esidence hei'e, been conneeteil
with the North-west .Mounted Police? -Yes.
.■'iSlti.!. Part of the duty of the force has heen to enforce the pioliiliitory enaetmeni
of the Territories, I suppose <' — Ye.s, up to 1st May last.
.'iSMil. Speaking from your own experience, liaxc you found tht> force faithful in
the discharge of their duties? — Yes.
.Hf^Mio. Have they lieeri vigilant all the time? Ye.^.
.■iS4(>'). Kroni your statement I should judge that you had heen in the southern
jiart of the Territoi'ies ])art of the time? — Yes, i have Ijeen there most of the time.
:>S Hi?. What wiM'e the principal diHiculties tliat the force had to cope with in
carrving out the law :■— The po[)ular sentiment was entirely against it.
.'is MIS. What were the modes of hi'eaUing tiie law .' -Snoiguling. There w'-
abundant means by a hich li(|Uor could l)e sniuguled in. They would snuiggle it fr<piM
British Cohnnbia and from othi i- (piarters. Wliisky men would go west in I luMnoiiiini:
anil engage a Pullman berth at a plai'c where the train stops half an hour for suppii.
During the time it was there he would make arrangements with the porter, by wiiicli lie
lilled his berth w ith kegs of whisky. We wei-e not allowed to seairh Pulhnans f'M
whisky. A\'hen he got near (Jalgary the li(|Uor would be thrown off just before the
train ]iulle(l in. .\nothei' way was that a man coming down in the colonists" car woiilil
use rubher beds and pillows lilled with whisky. They had it all over tlie train. Ii
would be in the berths, on the top, underneath, in front. <in the engine, on the leiidi r
anrl where the water was kejit and they would li't down tanks and kegs with a rope and
let it stay therein the tank. It would be drop] )ed oil' at convenient places ,ind tlhv
would lia\e men theic on the spot ready to carry it oil'. Of course; the ollicers coulil i"'
watch all these places. I.,ii|Uor has also been smuggled in consigned as bnnbei'. Tl •
men would ]>ile the bunbcr at e.icli end and at the sides and till the centre witii b.ni' i-
of whisky. When Sii' Lester Kaye was building his farm and getting large i|uantiiii'^
of lumber in, lartre i|Ua:itities of li(|Uor would come in consigned to him a'-- Inmbeiand ii
would be |>ut oil' at some >iding. Directly it was |iut olV t he men woidd be on hand .him
cart it away.
.'?SKi'.'. \\'' ha\t' iicen told that packages of liipior were consigned to people ti'i
whom they were not inlended .' Yes.
l''li.\Mv H.MU'l'.li.
430
57 Victoria,
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■I'C Wi-
it t'nun
iiiiirniiii:
Sll[)|lll.
wiiicli ill'
nans t'"i'
ire iIm'
ar wciiiM
fi)|i(' illnl
Mill till')'
niulll iiii'
in-. Til.
1, llMl'lvN
|ii,iiititit's
ii'f mill i'
iuikI ami
iiiilf t'i'i'
111
til iiiiii
•■i8470. And that tlie [ifojilc for wlioni tlicy weie init'micd would conic and get the
|iai'kiii,'es and take them away ?-— Yes, lundmr was consigned to Sir Lestcf ICaye tliat lie
had nevei' ordefcd, and he would never get it, t'of it would lie left at some si<ling and
the li<|Uoi' would 1)1' taken out from the centre of the caf.
■"58471. People made use of his name to get in liiiuor /-Yes, I seized one car here
ivself. It contained lumher and also .")00 or GOU gallons of liquoi'. which was addressed
him.
.'is 172. NMia' kind of liiiuor '. It was '■(! iV W, four years old, " uin antl Scotch
whisky, 'i'here was a lionded warehouse at Jiantl' at this time and lii|Uipr was kept
there t(» a certain extent ; but since the license law has come in the |)ro|irietiir has
iisked the (lovernment to do away with it for there Ls no sale for lii|U()i'.
.■i'-il7."). You .say that is at liaiilf! -Ye.s.
."58471. NN'hen you were in the southern part of the Territories did lii|Uor come in ?
— A great deal was smuggled in. It was hrouglit in from Fort l{enlon in the I'nited
States hy teams.
.■tN17o. 1 >id ytiu ever make seizures'?. — Yes.
;5847(). What kind of li(|uor was generally .seized / — \'ery had. It was prinriii.illy
whisky, hut I thirdv it was really vitriol or at least it was some had stull'. The liipiur
since the new law has hecMi in force has heen \ery much hetter.
•"is477. i)id you ever make any seizures i;. the southern part? — Yes.
l'iS47s. What class of men wt;re engaged in the business? — The man 1 got was an
iikl iioliceman in the force.
.■)S47!). He was not in the force at that time? No, he had left the force. The
uav they biought it in was from the I'nited States; they would cache it some dis-
laiice away from town or s(>ttlement, and then would liring it in in small ipiant ities
at .1 time.
.'58480. !ia\(' you ever known compounds used as drinks? I lia\e kmiwii
men drinking . I amaica ginger and pain-kdler, Florida water and ditVerent "j^sences and
a \ariety of scents. 1 know that a great many pi'ople jit that time, merchants and
lit hers, made u]> scentsand essences and a small quantity of alcohol was put into the
mixture and the j)eople drank it. ( )ne of the Macleod ]iei)ple made .(amaica ginger.
When we searched the plai'c we found alcohol, dirt"erent kinds of essences, cayenne
pepper and a lot of old .Jamaica gingei- bottles, l)ut the compound seemed to be composed
I'hietly of alcohol and not nmch of ginger. lie h.id, however, all the appliances for
making ginger.
.'5.^481. \\'e u/iilerstand that [lai'V of the duty of the force was to make dianiriliary
visits? — Yes. We could -.search anywhere, that is a connnissioned nllirer could, m a
piilircman under the oiders of a lonnnissioned otticer.
.")S4S2. |)iil you I'Ncr make personal search ?- Yes.
;>'< t8;i. Anil found lii|Uoi? Yes,
.■5f<l''l. What was done with it ,' It was destroyed
.">8(f<.'i. Poured out on the ground ? ^'es.
.").'<48(). Taki; thelii|uni' fnuiid in the lumber, wa-. it lll■^lroyed ' '^'e^. it w ;is |Miiirid
Hilt cii the ground.
'>st87. How long have you been al ISanH? — l'"i\e year--.
.'5.^(8^', Ha\e you e\er known pai'ties here ^'ct in lii|Uiir and li,a\e a regular
ili'iiiking bout '? — Y'es.
■"'^4811. Have you had any expeiience of t he working ul i he [icrmit -ystem '. I had a
-leat deal. I consifh-r that in the early days, befmv the railway came in, it worked
lairly well ; but since, it did not work well at all. r-Tiuits <• ere given under tietiti'Hi>
ii.uiies. In the old days when you searched a man - place and found liipior' it had to lie
^liowri that it came in undei' his own name, but untter the decision of one of the .ludges,
it was aftei'war'ds i-uledthatso loni; as he Ijiwi permits ti> <i.\er the lii|uur' that niii,dit
he nil his lu-emises he was protected, although ther'e niiglii l>e niie ur uiie hundred pei-
iiiit-. •ludi'e Uouleau railed that w;iv.
•')8|it0. You say that li(|Uor could bebrought in s<i Immas it was imt for tlie purp'->»-
I barter and sale I The parties were only gr'anted peirnils for' medinnal and diurie'^iic
lit
U-.l-<.
431
I,
■ I
Ll(iuoi- Traffic — North-west Teri'itories.
."iSI'.tl. lint could licit 11 |i('rs()M wliii had I'cci'h cd li(|Ucir un ;i |M'iiiiil i raii-it'ci' hi-
permit ('\('ii it' it was tjir his own usu? -It was iiii|MPssil>lc to |iin\(> a sale.
."is H)'.'. 'I'akiii^tall thi' ruses you liave inciitioiifd, do ymi l)t'lic\c thi'V arc siitlicifiit cv i-
(k'licf as to what puljlif sciitiiiicnt was in tiic 'I'crritorics with rcuard to tlir lirohiliitorv
law? ^1 do.
.")f<ni.'5. |)id tiic |i('o|ilc resist tliosc laws .' — Yt's. I lia\(' iiad a ^icat many ca^-i's Ijct'orc
me as .Mai;isl rate. 'I'hc iiro|i|c thought nothini;' ot' swcariui,' to a lie in regard to licjuoi
casi's, and in tact thoy lioiijLiiit no harm \\,:s done.
.■5S41>4. Did they view iiiiuor ea.ses dill't reiitly tVoni .my other cases .' 'I'liat law wa-
an un|io])iilar one, deprivini; them ot' the ri;,dit to drink what they liked, and they consj
dered they had as much iii,dit to iiav;' liipior as any one else. I ha\(' known witnesses
to come n|) and sweai' to that which I knew was a direct lie.
.'is I'.i."). As an olU<'er you ha\e l>een connected with the adnunisi ration of justice,
takini; jiart, in it t'or a nundier of years. What did you lind theeH'ectto Immhi the inihlic
conscience of lia\inLr a l.iw on the statute liook that was persistently \iolatcd .' ft w;i-
very had.
.'is t'.Ki. ^'ou think the law would lie a u'ood one, if i'ariied out ' Yes, I he |iroliiliiloiv
law would he a L,'<iod one if carried out, lint I thiidv it is im]>ossible to carry it out. I
thiidc the ]iresent law is vcit uuu'h prefei'ahle to the jiernnt system that was jii'(^\ iou^ly
in force,
.'!Sl<)7. ^\"e ha\(' noticed th/it there is a \eiy lar^e iiotel here as well as the one in
which we now are, and to hoth of which traxcllers come from all parts of this count ly
and of the wor'ld. W'liat do you think would he tlu' effect if all the quests on arrivini;
heri' were deprived of li(|Uor ( — I tliink it would lie a yreat injury. Uefore the licen.se
law came into force on 1st May last, the Canadian Pacific Mailway hotel aiul this hotel
had licnses from the Lieutenant-fJovernor to .sell wine and beer hut no spirits. There
area Ljreat many travellers, especially i'jinlisli ;,'ui'sts, who must ha\e llieii' whisky
and water liefore iioin;,' to bed. They nnisl ha\e it, oi' they will not remain.
;}S4'.IS. "^'ou. your.self. are an Ein,dishman .'- 1 am.
■'itS+'Jl). Takinij; tlui KHt,dish people as a rule, and takinji tlu; (Jerman and other dif-
ferent cla.s.ses of ])eoiile who are accustomed to {lartake of intoxieatini; bevera<.;es in mo
deration. Tf p<'o))le comint; fi'om foreiu'n countries find there is one secti<in of this
I )ouunion where they u.in obtain li(|uors to w Inch they haxc b(>en accustomed and another
section whei'e they cannot obtain them, because a prohibitoi'v law is in force, the con
ditioiis otherwise lieiiiii eipial, to whicli section would they l)e likelv tt) go /-They
would prefer a license country.
;5JSr)00. Are there any suici,'i'stions you can oli'ei' to the Connnission in rci^'ard to the
license law itself or anv amendment thereto? I think the license law if enforced would
l)e an e.\cellent ihinjj;, and it could be very nuich more strictly enforced than it is to-day.
foi' at present it is not carried out strictly. There is a License Inspectoi' appoiided in
carr'V out the law, but he li\es at Calyarv ; and there should be more stringent order-
t the Inspector in carryin;,' out the law. One of the |
irovision-
uncn to the poJH'c to assis
of the law is that liipior shall not be served to a man who is intoxicated. There slmuli
be a very severe penalty imposed for a breach of that [ii'ovision.
.'iS.'iOl. The law also prohibits sal(> to minors .' -Yes, also durinij; prohibiti'd
and as re^ai'ds keepintf open on Sunday.
"iDL". .!(
the law observed in
d to sale to minors? -1 do not know.
.'iS.jO;!. And to drunken nuMi, vou th
nnU liipior is so
Id
veil
.'iS.)().t. As to keepin;.f open on Sundays ami after hours how is that pro\ ision oli-er
The pr<ivisions of the law are not obser\-ed as regards Sunday.
.'{.S.'iUo. Has the lii'eiise law in its main feat uics been carried out '? — Yes. Addition.!
oliicers miiiht be appointed it necessary, and \ii,'oio!is etiorts should be m.'ide to cniii|
licensees to keep within the law, tlioUi;h (, myself, handy think there is
■I
is miu'li (iruni
eiiness, certainly in my section and amonu the miniiiii; men down at C'anmore .ine
Anthracite, under the license law as there was bi>fori\ ( )ne reason is that many peoph
have iriven up drinking' li(|Uor, esjieci;
illv <'<pini'.'ii'iM
with the early davs and during
the |irohibit ion period, when a man would not have an ojipoi'tunity of !.'ettinsj; a d
nil
FliANK I1.\I!1M;1{
432
57 Victoria.
Sessional Pa[)ers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
for weeks iiiid lie wdnlil take a 1)1^ drink wlieii lie li.id the elmuee. iKuiiii; tlie jierniit
system ymi would see men wlm would never lie drunk under tlie lieonse system liii\e n
nunilier ot' his,' drinks and tlien <;et diunk.
.'is,")!)!'). Were yoii aceusloiiied to miners lii't'oi'e you came to this ecuuiiry, did you
li\e in any mining section .' -Yes.
.■iMr)()7. From your experience, then, you ar(^ ahle to make comparison lietween tliti
miners in this district anil in l']ni;land .' I am ae(|uainted with the mini'rs in l.ethhri(li,'e.
.'!S.")()S. |)oi>s the same I'cmark apply to them as it docs to othei's ' -A'es, I am not,
liowevei', makiiii;' special rct'eienci' to miners, hut. am spcjikint; of drinkinit in the early
days. I am sjieakiiii,' genei'ally, not particularly of minors. Ijut 1 may say that I do not
lliink there is as much drunkenness among miners in this section since the liccn^i' law
came into force as there was previously.
A'// AV/-. />,: .]/<■/.■„,/:
'■')!<:>{)[). l)id vou oliscrve whether there were a gnat numlier of pri'iuits issued'.' -
Permits wine numerous. Latterly that wastlw ca<e ; in the early days the permits
wer(> not so numerous and. moreox'er. there were not so many people in the 'i'ei'ritories.
.''SolO. Was there any di'-ci'etion exercised in 1 he issue of permits, according 1o vour
oliservation 't Yes.
•ii^ol i. r)o you think they were issued for cause, or were they issued to almost every
one who might iijiply ,' - .Sometimes they were not issued ; it depended on the ap])lieant.
Sometime.sa jiermil was I'ofused and the ni.in would then go to the rejirMsentatiM' of his
district and say that he wished a permit to lie issued and granted to him : the niemher
would write a private letter, and as a lule the permit woidd he granted.
.SSol^. Then. I sujijiose. the ])erMiit could not very well lie refused I No, there was
a good deal of ditliculty sometimes to ohtaiii the permit.
."isni.'i. And when olitained was it not u.scd to cover liijuor wherescr found ' That
was the ease in this district. There was no use eomicting a man for having li(|Uoi'
in his possession for it would he found to lie coxercMJ hy a ]>eriiut. and in I'ase of comic-
tion an appeal would be taken to dudge Konleau. who decided that so long as a man had
.1 ]iermit to cover a certain ([Uantity of litpior it did not matter where the li(juor was.
S<i a man might have smuggled in whisky and when it would he discovered hy an otKcor
he would imuii'diately produce a permit to co\t'r that ipiantity, and that permit stood
Ix^twcen himself and trouMe. So long as he had thai jicrmit he was safe.
;i)Sol 1. If liipior was .seized on a man's premises and he had no permit, liul l)efort>
prosecution could he carried to a conclusion he ajiiilied for one anil got one, woukl that
covered the (|uantity and would he be safe ? — I have known of such cases.
.■>S.") 1 ."). Were applicants for permits (>ver referred to you to re])ort as to whether
I hey should be granted or not .'--Yes.
.■iiS.")l(). Have vou repi.irted sometimes against the issuing of permits to certain indi-
duals f— Yes,
•'5S.")17, Have permits been issued over your repoi'ts against such being granted '. ^'es.
.■1S.")1,S. You have had cases like that.' Ye.s.
.i^^-'jl!). From your knowledge of the way in which permits were granted, have you
come to the coiiclusifiii that the .system of late years was not one of prohibition but
rather of permit '. It was one of permission I should say.
•■{8-")20. Uinler tlios<> circumstances it w as dithcull to detect smuggling, of course ? —
Ves,
•i^^-'il'l. We have heard that police constaiiles w eri! not allowed to search Pullmans ,'
Yes.
."iSoL'-J, Was the fact that Pullmans were used by smugglers e\er brought to the
attention of the authorities, within your knowledge f — Yes,
■'5S.")2:5. Did they try to ))revent it ; - No.
• ISo^b The same condition continued? — Yes.
•■<.'^-')2.'"). Do vou think there is more or less drinking; now than there was before the
license system went into ojieration ? — 1 think when the lii'cuse system went into f(,)i-ce,
I hat is to say for the first month, there was mor(> drinking, but at the jireseiit time 1 do
not consider there is as much.
Hi:
433
•)8**
ill
lii'l
ti >
Dili
Liquor Trallic — North-west Territories.
■'iS5i'(i. Will you tell tlu' (.'oiiimissiuii wlietlii'i' tlii'it; is mure cir less sold now tliaii
]ii('\ idtisly ! I cniild not tell tliiit.
•'<H")27. l'u'for(Mlu' license ssstt'in went into tone, was selling' i|iiite n|)eni\ carried
oil? It was open to tin' ;;eneial j)lll)lie, liul not to I lie ollieiais.
;{iSr)2,S, Milt tlie jM'ople generally know wliei-e li(|Uoi' was to he had .' Yes, yoii could
fdways ;;<'t ii(|U(ii'.
.">sr)i.".>. Have you not had niofe cases of di'unUs hct'ore you as a .^^al,'istl•ate since
the law came into force than you had hefore ; (U> you keep a record of the cases.' —Yes.
.'iS.")."i(). Will you favour the ( 'oniniission with the record of the cases since the
license lasv came into operation, and iherecoi'd foi' a similar ]n'riod previously? — Yes,
I would have to take the record for a certain nuniher of months, Ijccause the iiiine.s are
slnil up for a ceitain p<;riod durinj,' tlie summer months. The mines at Canmore have
(jiily heen de\-eloped during the last yejir or two. Thiiy wei'e carritil on on a small scale
at first, hut now there are ahout 'JotJ men woi'king there.
."tcS.'jlJI. Vou have stated that the license law is not very well enforced ! Yes.
.'iiS.").'iL'. To what do you attribute that non-enforcement f I undei'stand the enforce
nient I'est.s with the Executive at Kngiiia ? — -They liave the power to cause the law to lie
more stringently enforced.
liSr).'i.'i. Whose duty is it to enforce the license law ? — Thei'e is no one here. The
Liceirse Inspector' liv(?s in Calgary, and In^ visits the jilace.
:<sr);il. So you, as a. Mounted Police otiici'r, have not tin' same authority as you had
under tin; old law .' No.
.■?S.").'{."). And, except when the Inspector makes occasional %isits, thei'e is no one to
look after' the enforceirrent of the law here ? -No.
.")S.');}(). Have you noticed whether the men who have licenses pay attention to
the law aird its provisions, or do they sell whenever' tliey can make a dollar ? -They
sell \vli(;n they can. It matters not whether it is during prohihited hour-s or irot, they
sell whenever they see a chance to l)ring a dollar into tlieii' pockets.
.■$8r):i7. Are thei'e sales inad(^ on Sunday ? — Yes.
.S85."?8. Is it your lielief that this license law does not pi'iu t ically regulate the
trade? — I do not think the liceirse law does. I suppose the revenue of the Territories
is incif^aseil by it. Men know they are not as liahle to ho searched as they were hefore ;
they know when the l^icense Inspector comes on a visit, and that he is the only one in
the district, which extends from Calgary to iJanff, and south.
.■$8.').'i!). So he cannot look very carefully over the district? -No.
.■i85-M). You havt^ .'ipoken of perjury taking ])lace in cases coming hefore you. |)ii
you think it is the law that is accountahle for this, or is it a fact that they have heeu
parties to the \iolatioii of the law as purchasers of the liijuor? — No, T do not think it
is the law.
;$8.')11. Do you tind this, that a witness called to testify regarding violationsof the l;'w,
is unwilling to testify or tell the truth, hecause ho had heen a party to the violation hy
purchasing li(|Uor / They may have heen purchasers, hut not in the particular' case 1
liave spoken of. In some of the cases coming before me they may be witnesses, and
yet have nothing to do with the ea,sc ; they may have been called up in regard to the
selling of l)i'er, and have (h'clared that the drink the men got was beer, nuiii who were
sitting at the bar or getting a drink.
;{8r)|;i. Such ini'ii, of course, were frequenters of the place .' — Y'es.
.S8.'jh'i. Speaking of beer, do you suppose, after the introduction of the four percent
beer .'irrangement, it was still more difllcult to deal with the matter? — Y''es.
•■i8.")l4. Do you suppose that under the ])i'(,>tonse of selling beer they would sell all
kinds of liiiuor ! — Y'es.
.'?8.")1."). Does the license law i'<'ally regulate the trade more than the so-called pro-
hibition did ? Y'es, I think it does, hecause a man has to pay a large license and he
will look after illicit sellers for his own protection.
.S8.t4(). Arc there any persons other than thosi? licensed selling now .' There may
be (jne or two, in fact I am ])retty certain there are.
.'^8017. Do the licensees make coin])laint against the men who sell anil have no
licenses? -No. \N'hen the beer law came into force in Banlf, there were certain licenses
FlIANK llAUI'KIi.
434
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
t,'i;iii(('(l to lidtt'lN, :iiiil tlit'ic w.is ,1 iiiiin wliu \va^ x'lliiii,' I lien mikI 'ir icmt imn'il In si'll.
'riic licrnscd nii'M wcni and told liiiii Id L;i\c ii|> selling ur iliry would iiit'oi'in mi liiin
.".S.")1S. hid he <i\\f ii|>; Yc^.
."i.^^")!!). Iliivc yon ol)sfi'\('(l tlir (.■Ht'ijl of tlic liijuor triillic .iiid tlif li(|iior h.iliit oii
\aiious iiiiiTcsts touclifd l»y tlieiii, hiisincHs intcct'sts, si>cial .iiid lioiiif iutcicsls and llu-
nioialHof l!io jH'oiilf, wlit'tlifi' till' I'd'fut is lioiicliciivl or iiijuiioiis in any dfj{ii'i' .' 1 iliink
ii is injurious.
/J// Judgi; McDmiiilil ;
liH'i'ccin
I soli ^ill
|c(l inn
antl li''
kr niay
liave !io
lit'onsi's
ilinn or in cxfcss .' I tiiink it is
.'i.sn^O. I)o you mean wiu'n li(|Uor is used in nioiiiT;
injurious in this pai't of tiu' <'iiunlry and u|i licrc
JiS").")!. How many persons wci'c scliinLC ill IJanfl' Ix'forc tiic license law eanie into
dlieiiit ion ,' (V'i'taiidy six were sellini^ retail. Sometimes, <if course, mercliauts woidil
net in lar;,'e tjuiintilies and would sell it wliolcsale.
.'isr)")!!. How iiiimy iicoii.scs urn there to sell retail now i — Durinj; the siMnuiei' there
art» four, when tlie Ciiniidiim Pacific IJailway liotel is not open tiiercMire only three.
."is.").'};!. Would you fa\iiur tlu; a|ipoinIment of a local ollicer in order to inspect tjie
]ilaces hei'c and si'c that the law was better enl'or'ced f- Yes, and to make it more
decidedly the duty of the police to carry it out.
."isr).")}. [ understand, liiat takin;,' the ])rohil)itory law with all tho Mounted Police
cn<li'a\-oiirii\<,' to carry it out and takiiii; the present law w itli oidy a small niiniher to
enforce it, you think the licen.'-o law preferahle ? -Y'es.
; is 5 .')."). In making,' such a statement as has l)een spoken of, t akin j; si.\ months of
this year and six of last year, would it he a safe com|iarison and a fair one, when you
lake into c()nsid(;ratioii the increase of miners at Catnnore '.--I do iioi think it would,
unless you took that iptestioii into account — you woidd liave to take into account the
fact that mininj; interests have hcen larj^ely tleveloped.
.'iiSr).")*). So the circumstances are different? — Y'es.
.'i(S557. So you coukl not make a fair comparison .' - Not unless you took into
account the changes in i)opidation and the change in the; cliaracter of the po|)ulation.
.'iMjloK. In regard to tin- ([uestion of parties sending and ohtaining permits aftiM'
I heir liipiors have hcen seized and using them to cover such liipior, I understand that your
iilHcers would not receive them. Would there not he any i|uestion as to the date of
those pei'ndts? — The date would show that they were issued after the li([Uor had come in.
.'VSijoy. Yc)u do not mean to say, of course, that the authorities who granted the
]iermits were trying to protect the people whose li([Uor had heeii seized? — No, nothing of
1 he sort. TlnMlatt' on the |)ermits showed that they had heciii issuefl iifter the liipior
had been hr'oiight into the Territories. < )f course the j)arties tried to get the permits
afterwards in ord(M' to protect tJiemseh <'s.
.■!sr)(K). They wished you to acc(>pt the permit which was issued after the liipior had
heen seized and so let, them fre(! I — Yes.
;)Sr)(')l. Which you very propcu'ly refused to do f -Yes, certaiidy.
.'iS.TCc'. They would still retain the permits themselves ?^Yes, and thi'y would bring
in more licpior under them aflciwards.
•iSoC).'}. Ill cases of permits iieing issued over your report, when in fact you had
ri'ported against them, had you any knowledge as to what other reeonnnendat ions had
been made that led to your report being overridden '. - In some cases T ha\(' known the
repie.sentative of the district making icconnnendation. At one jieriod it was necessary
iliat all [K^i'unts should be recommended l)y miMubers of the Assembly for the district in
\^hich the applicant resided.
• i^olil. On that ground the (lovru'iior issmnl permits on the ri'conuneudation of
ihe representatives, and in fact he acted entirely on those reconmiendal ions'! — Y'es.
."iSodT). r supjiose theie wertMuauy cases in which your reports were acted on! —
Certainly.
.'iSotid. And li(pior pernnts were refused .' -Yes. In many cases permits were
'efused on my advice
21 I'S.l**
a j;n^at manv were so refusetl.
43.")
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WEBSTER, NY. MSBO
(716) 873-4S03
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Liquor Trattic — N'orth-Avefjt Teiritoiies.
/.'// h'rr. Dr. Mrl.,',,,1 :
."iSotiy. In cases ii) wliicii |ii'riuits ^v«'|•t' issued omt yuiu' r('|Miri* luid y<ju still reasou
to tliink that they sliciuld not have been issued ?- I liad.
.■(Hods. Would that lie in cases of men who iiad been scllint.' lii|Uiir '. -Mom wholiaij
been sellin;^, and men who I knew were whisky traders.
.■{H5()!>. In those eases or in sonie of them your report was ovei riiMen an<l jiermit-
were ;,'ranted .' Yes.
MSoTO. How many sellers are there under license here .' - One wholesale and thre.-
retail in thi' winter when the Canadian Pacific ]{ailway hotel is not opened, four whei,
It IS open.
:i.sr.7l.
■\f<:u-l.
Arc thcl'e no oIIku' sellers outside those'.' Xo.
In some places in the Tei'ritories we ha\c obtained e\idence of this kind :
That police constables were rather subjected sometimes to severe tem|)tations in the wav
of bribes ()!• lips, and as they were men on comiiaratively Hmall salaries th"y were open to
temptation. Was that tlie case in your district in any dei;ree ,'— I haveknown of brilx-
beinf; oU'ered to my nuMi. Tn fact ] was oH'ci-ed a bi'ibe. 1 was ortci'ed sTiOO in my hand
if I would allow a man to brini; in siune licpior.
;JHr)7."t. You refused it with scrii'u. I supjiose .' — I did.
;{Sr)7l. Had you i-eason to believe that your men — and they arc ordinary men-
were ojien to temptation in any ease? — I believe so ; I have ncser known, however,
personally anything of the sort to occur.
(iKoKC!-; A. STKWAK'r. of Hantf, Superintendent of the R-K-ky .Mountain I'ark
on beinji didy sworn, deposed as '.''lows : — -
Jij Jinhjc MfD'innUl :
."$857"). You are Suj)erintendent of the Hoeky Mountain Park, I iM'lieve? — Ye~.
■■<8r)7(i. ^'ou are appointed by the dominion (Sovernment? — Yes.
.■{Hr)77. You are under the I)epai'tment of the Interior?- Yes.
.'(8578. How ionj; ha\'e you lived in the Territoi'ies f -- For 12 years.
.'i8r)7'.). How lonji ha\e you lived at l$ant!'.' -Nearly 7 yeai's. I came here in lii<
winter of |88r)-S().
.{8r»80. Where di<l you live before that '. — .Vt Winnipeg.
.'{8r)8l. Did you come here from one of the other provinces,' ■ Kroui Torantu, Onta-
lio. Latterly from Port Mojie.
.■i8582. What are your duties and what ar<^ youi' powers .' — .My duties in the earls
stage of the Park wei-e to make a topographical survey. I was appointed Sujierintendenr
six months afterwards, oi- perhaps a year afterwards.
I{8.")8;{. .Vre you an engineer and land surveyor? — 1 am a t'ivil Kngine«-r anu
Lmd Surveyor. The object of theliovernment in. sending me h<re was to make a topo
gi'aphical survey, and nothing was then sjioken alxiut my being ajipointed Supei'inteiident.
But the Miidsterof the I ntei'ior visited liere in ISStl and spoke to me altout Ukkini:
charge of the work, and 1 have been carrying on the work until now.
.■iHr)K4. What is ^lie extent of the Park ? — I'tIO scjuare nules. 2<) by 10 miles.
.■{8")8r). Have you any jurisdiction as a Magistrate .' -I am a Justice of the Peace
Mefore there was an lns)iector here I had all the work and looked after ditieren..
matters.
.■{858(). Since you have l)een here, and Ix'fore 1st May last when the new licens'-
law came into force, had you reason to believe tliat liquor was biought in illicitly to
any e.\tent ?- Yes.
.$8587. From what section of tiie country / — Froui diflerent directions, Ixitli en-'
and west.
Fhank Haiu'kii.
436
^'' Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
itiiiii I'ai'k
Yi
.■iH.")K!>i. Wliiit yu I'iill .siiiu^iiliiii; ? — Yt's.
.■il>i.")j>i'J. \V('i-f you cjiHimI upon ntliciiilly tn il<-al witli >iuli matters ? — Yes.
.■(.S.l'JU. Oil jKUtius twin;,' brou^lit h.t'un- vuu tor illuit tnirt?: you deul witli tliein, I
■(Uppose t — Yes.
.'tS;")!)!. Wliiit kinds of liipior wen- brought in nx^tly .' - Whisky.
.'inriD^. Did you h<'iir in wli.-it, ways it was hrouglit in .' Yes. I had a couple of
policemen here to assist me. There wiis a j^immI deal of i-owtlyisni here when I first
raine. During the winter of Sfi there were many dLsreputalde character here who had
followed the construction of the railway. After the niilway was completed the comniu-
iiily settU^d down and many of them live«l in tent^. .VlK»ut that time .several serious
rows t<M)k plac<", and the impor'tance of this whole subject wius brought to my attention
in May. iSSIj. A slioot'iig alVair then t<«ik place. After gami)ling all night one man
chased aiiothei- all day though tin- wotnis trying to shoot liim. Of course I had power
to act, and I telegraphed to Ottawa tt) employ two polict-men and two men were sent
me within the nc.\t f(!w days. Then at flie Ministers re<|uest I w-as sworn in as a Jus-
tice of the I'eacf so that 1 might lia\<' some autliority as a Magisti'ate. ami hav(! so
.icted since.
.■(Hrii);!. Were those disorderly people brought Iff-fore you and lined / 1 gave them
the full benelit of the law : at that time there was no apiteal business in force. They had
to jiay the tine oi go to jail.
.■?Hr)9J. Was theie a large amount of I'loney collei-t*-)! in tines .' — Yes.
.IS.")!)."). Did the illicit tralHc to wlii< h you ha\e referred continui
["■opie went into tlu; business.
.■{So!)(). Tn those days you think that lii|Uoi- raine in fruni l«)tli the east am
west .' Yes, I think it came in from all direction^.
.'isr»!j7. What was the staieof thintzs afteran Ins|iector arriveilhere .'
were lianded over to him. < )f course I had a i.'reat iiuiny other duties to carry out.
.'{S")!)S. As an ollicial f .-uppose lie has attended to those matters ever sint^e .' Yes.
.'fS51)!). Since Isi .May you ha\e had a license law in force in the North-west
Ti-rritories ,' Yes, the < hilinance camt; into force alxjut that time.
."fSGOU. Taking the state of all'airs under the prohibitory enact nienl, so-called
llie stale of atl'airs iiiidef the license law, which do you consider to be preferable .'
the tiiiK! the permit .system was in \ogiie 1 was thoroughly dis'.!usted with it, and I was
M'ly nmch inclined to think that a giHxi license law would be inllnitely pieferalile ; but
1 must say that since the license law came into force I think the static of allairs has
l)eeii worse. It is a good law, although it is not applicable to our park, which is con-
tiolled by spei'ial pro\isions, but 1 must say that the license law is not atteuipteil to be
• urrietl out.
• tStiOl. Nobody is heretodo it, [sup|M(se' Wi- have no In>.|ieclor of licenses here;
when matters are brought to the attention of tin- Inspector action is taken, lie li\i>s
It t'algary, which is nearly 100 miles from here.
.■{S<)02. iSo unless theic is a resident Ins|«M-t<ir hei-e the jieople do wliiit they please
most of the time' That is pretty much the way at prcM-ni.
.'iSCill.'!. Takiiii; a license law with its diirerent pi-ovi^ions i^irried out, do you think
it woulil be preferiiblt! to the old system.' I do not think a license |a« is good for the
park. In this respect I think the |iiuk is dillerent from any other part of the Terri-
tories. Hire of course the great object was to make pro\ isioii for traveileis and tour
ist- in our hotels, to aflord tlicin propci- accomnnxiation and at the same time do .iway
with linuor. In the Northwest license law the condition^ .iri- just re\ersed. Thei'c is
iio pro\ ision needed for tra\cllers although there are ample pro\isiini.s foi- selling liipior,
1 repeat that this Park is dill'erent from any other part of the country.
.'IKfiOI. What law is in for<'e with regarri to this Park .' I think the plan is that
Contained in our I'ark Kegulations. Clause !'.» refers to liipior as follows :
" No t)iir niiiiii iir saliMiii sliiill Ih' piriiiittnl within the i'.«rk.
" Tilt' folliiwiiig I't'sli icliuiis (III the Hiilc lit iiitoxii iitiiitt lii|iiiit> in tin- I'aik .shall lie iiii|)ipsi'cl ami
< iiforufd, ill iiililitidii Ik ihf icstiiitiiui.s iiii|iiiM'il liy llu- Nurlli wc.tl Tci ritoiics .\ct :
ri. " '"lie "ide of iiitoviiutiiii; lii|ii(iis. even iiiuhr tin- i<|M-<i.»l |Hriiiissi(.ii ^r tiitcil iiiiiU'r Mi'ctimi i('J ol
the .said .Act, isHtiiclly iiinhihili'd. f\fc'pt in Imli'ls, anil thtu- it shall <inl> In- hIIkwciI to hnlcl kii''sI>
fill tidilc use. Niu slmll iinv pirson, iifter nlitainin^; ^luh it|)eiial |H'niii<ki>in. m'll, cNchaiigc, liailc oi
'437
es, new
d the
The matters
ind
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Liiiuor Tratlic — Xorth-wcst Territories.
Iiartor. or liiivr ii lii» iiohM'ssiciii, uitliiii tlu' I'luk, even for Imti'l um' uiiiicr- thin rcj;ulatii>ii. n\n
inliixicatiii^' licjiKff, until lii« M|K-i'ial |«'iiiiissi<iii issiii-d iinilff xfctioii !CJ of tlir saiil Noitlr\»i'»t 'IVni
torit'K Ai't lias Im'oii i'(iiintt'ii<i);iu'il lij tlic .Mini»lrr of tlii' liitiTior oi- lii.s <li'|iuty, for «liiili loiiutcr
xi^niiig a fco of •'^Vl HJiall lie cliai^t-il in tacli uanc : liiit no |»'rinil for a liotcl nIiiiII lir no roiuiti rxigncil
uiili'HN siii'li hotel hIuiII liavi' at leaMl twenty liciliooins of a si/.c ami to Ik- fniiiisln'il in a nianni-i' natis
factoiy to till' Su|)('t'int('nil('nt.
" If at any tinu' iliiiin^r the continuaiiit- of tlic ixTMiit t.lu' Sn|ii'i'ihlfUili'iit i'('|ioits that tlii'accoin
ijioilution hri't'inlH'foi'c hpt'cilicil is not inaintainc-il, oi' if it Ih iiiuvciI to the sati.sfai'tion of thr Ministci
of tli<- Inti'i'i >i' that the hot<0 is not l>cing ('oniln>'t<'<l in an oi'ilcilv ami |)ro|M'r nianni'i'. the |K'rmit
may Ih' ii'voki-cl ami (luai'llcil liy the MiniHtcr of tlii' Intcri >i'. ami the ini inittcc siiall have no claim
to have irpaiil to liiin any portion of tlit^ft-c paiil for loinituiKijininj; smli |irriiiit. "
.■JSi'iO"). Do y<'» fliiiik those (lie jjchmI ifj^uliit ions for tlic Park? Yes. Dtvouise
there iiii^ht be iinitro\eineiits in them, hut those are the rejiul'itions we liiul.
.'IHtiOtl. You tiiiiik tliose re^uhitioiis are l)etter tliaii the lieeiise law, 1 su|>]Mise .' —
Yes, of course they iiiij;lit not lie applieahie to (h(! Territories as » wh<ile, hut I am now
s|>eakin<; of the Hocky Mountain Park.
.'<S()07. Have you reason to In-Uevo tliat there was niucli sale yoins; on in P>antV before
the license law eaine into operation ? — Yes.
.'{MfiO^. Was there sah- in many plaees >,'«>iii,u on?--hefore that time lliere were
i|uite a nuinher of phices on the (juiet.
;<f<()U!t. Are yi>u in a |io.sition to say how many there were .' No, my attention
was eontined to the Park : otliei jtersons will no (hiultt he able to tell you.
/iy liev Dr. McLfod :
.'tsOlO. Yoi spoke about tlie Park beinji under a diireient law. l)o we understand
that tlu^ North-\ est orohibitory law did not apj)ly to the I'ark, or was tliere a diH'ereiit
law ab lUt tlie Park '. It applied to the I'ark ; our instructions were toapjily the j>ermit
system to t!u> Park and to see that our own regulations were carried out. That was
in .Inly. iS90. P.efore tliat we had iiothiii<; but the Nortii-west < )rdinance to work with.
7ii/ Jiic/tjf McliniKild :
.'Ssdll. TiuMi this is in a(hliti(>n to tlie North-west Ordinanci' ? Yes. We ha\i'
power in the re^^ulations to adojit any North-west Ordinain-e which the regulations di*
not cover.
Ihj liet\ Dr.Mrf.rod:
• tStUi. Then this is an addition to the North-west Act !- Yes.
.■{Stil.n. When the North-west Act of ]>rohibition or |iermission was repealed and
: ^_ 1 __ *_i i?.__ _____ <i ___!.• _ .* .1 II I 1 11
•'<S()1"). Then it is still an unsettled (|uestion ? - Yes.
.'iJ^tlHi. Take regtdation ID: was it carritMJ out in the
irry it out. but w(> were sto|)ped doing .so.
■'{f<t)17. That is to .sav that these Ib'^'ulation.s, which we i
Park .' We attemjited tc
tol
ire told were approved iiy
I b
the (lovernor (leneral on the .'(0th June, IH'.K), were attemjited to Im' enforced and wi
prevented from being enforced by the Department of tlu' lute
number of jiersons sunnnoned. but the cases were stojipei
We had ,1
Never to this dav.
.'tStilS. Were rea.sons giv
■SstilO. You simply had to .stop .' Yos.
.■{K()20. Were thiM'egulations permitted to be violated .' ()ur hands were tied ani
we were unable to do anything more. We received orders nine months afterwarils r<
(Jkoucji: a. STi:w.MiT.
438
'
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
^o on with the rcgiiljitirms. W'v went, nii and all the cjist's wore a|)|>«'iilt><l and arc now
Ijt'fttre the .liidgos. S<» we are tied again.
;t.'^(')21. Were permits issued veiy freely to persons residing svitliin the limits of the
Park /Yes, too freely.
.'{r<r)L'2. Were perniits issued to |>er.sons who .sold? Yes, I think jiersons ohtaiited
]ierinits and sold liijuor.
.iHdL'.'t. Do you nn-an that they had porinits to sell ? - At least they tried to do so.
1 hear<l of persons selling lit|uor under permit.
.■{S(>2I. l)o you think that the persons who olttained li.pior for medieinal jiurposcs
sold it .' — I think so, although no ca.su was brought before nie. I was not acting as
Magistrate at that time, hut I heard those re|H)rts easually.
.'tHtlL'"). |)o you think that the regulations ooidd be enforced if tiiey were not inter-
fered with ' Y«" s.
;i8(l*2<i. Would their enforeenient be beneficial to the )'a"k .' Yes.
•{8t)27. 1 )uriiig the time you have been here ha\e you had many men employed in
connection with the Park ? — During the first year we had from 7o to lOtJ men and have
gradually decreased, until last yeai' there were only lU or 12.
.■?8(ii'N. During that year wIhmi a larger number were being employed, wei-e they
afl'eoted i)y the liipior brought in .' During the e;irly part they were not ; after tin' four
per cent arrangement there was (|uite a lot of drunkenness according to the number of
men employed.
.'1H()1"J. A good (leal of illicit sale went on before the adoption of the license law, I
suppose ? -Y'es.
.■{8(!.'{(>. ^■ou ha\e obserxed what has been going on for .some years ; do you bclic\(>
that there is more or less lit|Uor sold now than then .' I think there is more.
.■?K(l:i|. Do you form that opinion from the effects of drinking seen, oi-do you think
there is really more litpior sold ? -Yes, I think there is niore li(|Uor sold.
HHC.'VJ. Were you here during the railway construction time? -\o, I wa.> in
Wiiniijteg.
.'tSti.'t.'i. Did you notice, iluring the con.struction period, whether prohibition had a
i;ood etVect or not .'- I do not know from my own knowledge as I was not along the line,
l)Ut 1 heard it stated that during that time there was lessdrinking and drioikenness an<l
that was the reason why the country was almost free from crime. 1 heard that from
persons who were contiected with the railway.
;if<f)-'t4. Do yi^u believe that the indiscrimiiuite is.sue of pernnts eau.sed the pi-ohibi-
tion system to be less beneficial than it otherwise would have been '. 1 think that is one
great reason why the law coidd not be carried out it wius not properly administi'ied
and .so crimi> prevailed. 1 do not think it is a fair criterion by which to judge of the
way we were situated here under the pernnt system. I do not think any isolated place
'■an be taken as an e.\ample.
."(St).'i."i. |[a\<' you any opinion as to the desirability of having prohibition foi- the
country at laige ; do you consider such a law is d(»sirable? I am not a |ii'ohibiti(in
man personally ; 1 never took a drop of li(|Uor in my life, but I do not l>elie\i' in hinder-
ing a person making proper use of it if he chooses. It is very nm'II in theory, but I do
not U'lieve a )irohibitory law can be carried out.
.'{8t).'<l'p. !)o you believe the license law I'an l)e carried mit ,' ^'es, certainly if the
proper means are taken to do so.
;fSt').'?7. Have you iu)ticed whether the law is carried out .' I do not know thai llie
license law has ever been carried out.
."ISCi.'iS. Do vou bi'lieve that ]>ersons holding licenses should be idlowi-d to sell dnr
ing the |iresent prohibited hours and whenever they like? -I think they do that now.
.'{StJ.'V.t. So that is a case in which a lictmse law does not regulate .' The law jirohibits
that, but there are means found to break it.
•IHtilO. AVas not the prohibitory law intended to jirohibit the sale, and were not
means found to break it ? Yes. I'nder the old jirohibilory law if liipior was found in
i man's jMissession you could punish him ; now of course you cannot do it.
:tS<)ll. You have lived in Ontario, I understand, and you now live in the Terrilorn's
and are Su|iei-intendent of the |{ockv .Mountain Park here. During the vi-ars von have
439
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Liquor TraHic — \uifli-west 'I'eniroiies.
Iii'cn In'if \\n\r ymi iilim>i'\('il wliai I'Mni I lie liiiiuir Irallir Ims litul mi tin- ItUHiiicHH iiitt'i'eNt.s
ami siH'iiil ninilit iiiii>, antl mi tlii' iiii>ial iiilcn-sts ot' tli<> <'<>iiiiiiuiiit \ . wliftlicr il lias Im-i-ii
;{ihmI (ir liad .' It lias had a ImkI iiilluciu't'.
Uy Jiiilijr M,p,.,„tl,i:
''tN)')ll.'. I uiiiitTstotHl ymi to -ay tliiti you diil not know to wliiit cMi-iit lii|iiur \vii>
siiui;,'Hlcd .' No, I only klii'W iklHiiit tlii' rases t!iat were lil'oii^ht ln't'olc liir. I liavc
kiiiiwii lit' lii|Uor liriii^ sent in my naiiic licrr, wliicii 1 kti<-\\ notliin;; alxiiit.
l>AN"lh W M l'ri%, ot" naiilT, sictioii t'm-ciiiaii on till- Canadian I'licilic ltaiU\av. ">n
U
lemg duly ssvorn, ilc|i(isc«i as toiiows ; —
lifl Jiidyi Mr/)<,iiii/ii :
:Wti'.\. Ifow Ion;; iia\i' yoii liei-ii ii: llanir ! 'riiifi- yoais.
.■(HtlH. Whi'if did you livf iH't'mc that ' Tlic yrai liffmc llial, I «as in Itiitisli
Coluinl)ia.
.'{S(i4.-). Al what iihut
. I UitiT Tail, iho first station west ot' Kii-ld.
.■<S(i4(J. |)o you know imythin;; aliout tin' sniuujjliiii.' that went on t'lmii I'ritish
Coluinhia to hoif .' V'es, I saw a little of il.
MStij". What did yon sec/ I saw it i-anii'd on in one way and lh<' ciihcr.
.■<S()|S. What riii'thiHls were rni|>l)iy.-d .' Uailway trains wcif i'in|iliiy)'d and il was
fjikon in packa^i's and in othfi- ways,
.■l><li|',l. Wh;it othrr ways .' -< )n the tvirs. In ihi- sleeping fars, on tjic sniokin;:
cars and the ;;i'ni'ral |>ass(>n!ifr tr.iiiis and un ihi' fr<'i;,'lit Ifaiiis as ordinary t'rfi;(iit,
.■lS<i."i(). Mow wiiuld it 111' |iiit mIViIii- lais '. Tlwy ilin-w ii olVtIif r.irs at {{.ind'aml
west lit' I'lanlV, and ihcy Inok il duwn iIk- rixcron rat'ls w hi'ii [lossildi'.
:tsi;.")i. 'rhni I su
lllllSf t lll'V
I'l
were ''fiH-raliv waiting' for it.
ha.l
]i('ii|i|i' u'l'in'rally irady lo i'imtim' it
I'S, lll.'V
:m
>;):
Ii
ow was il consii'iii'd ' (1
'allv to III hiT nai'tifs and -■■niftiini's lo ihciii
.'ts (■).'").">. You s,i\ thai siiini'tinii's ihi- packages wcri' addii'sscd in niht-i parlies and
soint't lines
lo tl
leinseiM's.
I
'I'l"
tl
lose parlies wnuld ha\ e n
Sunie iiarlies would not, f knew a ease at hanlF w hei
d
!• .1 set
klmwli'd;,'!' iif the f;irl
lion man like myself
oiinil a iiaekai;e ai
kii
ddressed l<i him. nf wliieh he ha<l ni« knowledire wliate\e|-.
.1
.'ISll.')}. I suppose that packajie would ne\i'i'ha\e reaelied him I -No. Ther-e was
ilways a party wiiitin;; for it who knew il was rnminj.
:<S(i.-).J. That
was the shippin;; puint in the west fm liijum' ' Vi
I understooil
was hoiiald aixl <lolden and also I'ield, liut honald was I he chief point.
.■{iStioCi, Wliat kind of li(|Uor was ,si>nt ? — Aleoholie li.|Uor. so far as f understand.
T dfi not know the taste of lii|Uor.
:{8t
>;)( . Are you a
IoIjiI ahstainer / Ye:
;{!<(!")?*, Are ymi in fa\our nf |>riiliil>il ion, on jirineiple ' ^'es.
.■ISlJ.'tit, I tiiyiiu loiik iipmi the lieeiisiiiy lit' the t ratlie as w I'lin;^ in prineiple ,' Ye.s,
.•iSlil'iO, Do you think it is .i sin t.. lieense the Iratlie t Yes.
/il/ Jier. Dr. Mr Lead:
'\MCi\. You spoke alHiut siiiiiir^lin;; heint; earried mi tliroti^h the railway : Oo you
think that the eompany were in eolliision with the smuj,';;lers ' | think in a ;^reat many
oasos the railway employees, ari). or at all exents they were tip|M>il for previiitinj: the
sinuffKlers heiiif^ enui;lil. In other cases, of eourse, tlu-y have iiu control nver the
Hinu^^lin^.
."iSfKi"-'. IIa\e you charge of a niimU'r of men mi your section .' Yes. Seven miles
i8 the length of my seetimi,
(iKiiidiK A. Sri.wAin.
440
67 Victoria.
Sessional Pa|)er8 (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'t8*)ii'l. Mitxr yiiii iMitii't'd til)' ('H'<-('( iif (lit' lii|iiiii' Inuli- iiii<l lialiit in m.ikiiii; im-ii
i;ihmI or liiiil <'iii|ili>\i-)'s ' ^'l'^, I liitM- riuiirfil till' t'tlt'i't. I iiiiM' iiNi) until I'll its iiitliii'iirt*
III! IiiImiiii'Iii;; iid-ii ilufiii;.' MJnf 1 1' yrfifs' i'\|M-i'i<'lirc in thr riiiti'ii Stiiti's, aiitl I Iuim-
ahviiys iKilictMJ that drink in;; lialiits i-iiiis«> tri)iii)l*-iiii)< way iti'iiiiotli)T \\ itii litlMtiirin;; iidmi.
.'tS<ltii. It«-fiiri> till- lici'iist' law i-aiiif into t'oirr did ymi tind that llif iin'ii rmild
easily nlitain lii|iiiir it' tliry wanti-d it .' I iindcrstiHMl they riuild.
.■{M()li."(. What Jirc the ruli-s lit' thr Canadian I'arilir Kailway iii ri'i;ai'il tn di inkiiiu
men I Th<- i-oiiipany |>i'iiliil>it it ^'t'licrally drinking I incun.
.'Istitiii. Ill nt.sH of Koi'tiiin ineii, wiiaf arc llif riii*«H of the ('(iiii|iaMy ' 'I'n al>stain.
.'(MCiliT. It' a Ill/Ill was t'niind In In- a tirinkii'v' man. what wutild Ix- iln' ii'sult .' -
I )is('|iaruf at oiiri'.
.'IStitlS. What diMsthi' Canadian I'aiilii- I'ailway ini-an l>y driiikiiiL; iin'ii ' Any
lial)itiial di'inkiM' nt' lii|iiiir, they liaxc ni> um- t'nr him and disrhar;.'!- him.
.'tSOtl'.*. Sn|i[iitsi' yoii usimI lii|U()r r(>;jiilarl\ i-M-ry day and t<M»k what is i-allcd an
"••ycdjicnrr ' in ihi- miirniii;; luid a " ]iirk iiif-iiii " and a liltlr latt-r i>n at nu-al tinn-
tiHtk soiiif more, wiiiild th<' Canadian Taiilir Itailway nhji-fl In siu'h a man ' In "iiiiii-
rasi's till' iiii'ii dn it scnrtlx and llif ininpany kni>w« nnthin;.' ahmil it.
;IS(i7ll. It' thr t'nm|iany knew almiit it. siii'h a man wniild iiavi' In nn, I --uiiiin^i' ,'
^'^•s, iindt'i' tin- |if«'s»'iit manaKfincnl. nt" the rnad.
•'(Mt'(7l. Willi is sti|i«'riiil<>nili'iit ' Wm. Whytf, nt'tlif wi-stfrn ili\isinii. and Mr C.
\\ . S[M'nr<'r. lit' the i-asti'i'ii di\isnii.
•t'*iii7".'. llaM' ynii iilisi'ivcd ;;i'iii'rally thr crtiTl mi thr lahniiriii;,' iiii'ii > t' tin- drink
iialii; and trallir is it a di'trimriit In llii'in ' N'i's, it i> di-trimciitai tn tlii-in, it wi-akciis
tlii'ir aliilitv In dn thfir work.
.■|S(i7.'t. .Vrc ynil lonni'i'ti'il with any lahniir ni;:ani/alinn .' Vi-s.
.■1S)17I. What i.s till- hliK'-liniik ynu haxc in yniir hand iinw ! It i^ a ri'|Miii nt ,t
man whii;;asi' his i'\ idt'in'i' in New rirniiswirk iM't'nrt' llu' LalHUir Cniiimi'-sinh.
.">S(17"<. |s tlifii' anv part t'min whiili vnii want tnininic ! I waiitrd in ijiinii' tmni
|a-i' J I 7.
.'<.S(i7<'i. I''rn|ii W hnsi' tl'stilllnliy .' I'lcilll tl \i(|l'lirr nt' S. S. I'a I I I'l-i ,|i, aii'nlllll alit
nt' till' l>niniiiinii Savin;,'s Hank.
<,'. ( all yiHi ^'Im' ii>« ^iiiy iilra wlml in I In- |hii|iiii limi nl lln' |)i'ii|)li- w Im ilt|M>Ml tliiii mii |ilii- r.ii ii
iii>,'» ill thr Mii\ iii>:> lunik ' A. Tin- |ir(i|ili' w hn imin' rr^jiihii !y to tlir .h.u iii^j^ li^nk ■m- I In it lliiit \« i-
riill wiii'liiiiL; |)r<i|ili' iiii'cliaiiii's. III' f'lniiri'H ,'iikI tlii'ir laiiiilir^, .iml alMi Hiiiiir iiiai iih'Ik. I lliiiik
lliii r fiiiil tliM iif iilir I iisliiiiii IS nil' aliiiili^' thai i lif-* nt |irii|ilr, Inr »r ilii lint rln iiiiim^i' iIi'|ii' it<ii>
t'piiii iiiiv iillii'i' lias.-*.
<,'. Do tJii'V il"|iii.sit tiri(iiriil ly •' ^ I'M : «!■ Ii.im- ,i ^iirat many •li'|M>.'<il"i > «li iiii' nuiiliiilv
■ iiiri' a \v<'«'k. \\ I' liHik tor tlii'iii. .it all imiiIs. nmi' ,i inniitli. ami it ui- liinl llirs ,iii' imt ili'im-it In^
\\i' kiinu (lii'iT is Miini'tliliiK U"ia^' w miij^ u itii ilinii .sniiii' sIckiicsH m tiniililr nf tlial kllpl.
I>y till' t 11 »ll!\l \s :
),>. W'ImI is I llr lnUI">l ill'|lil^<it villi t^kr' A. Our ilnlllll .
liy Ml. < I. Mlkl. .
',». What JH tilt liiiiit III iU'|>iisii •' .\ jln Mill inr:iii fur a vi'ai r
<,». Vi's' .\. Tliiii' liiiiiilii'il .loll.u-..
*). Have many im iliaiiiis icuiiiil tlial liiiiil .' .\. N I's ; a j(ii'iii iiiiiiis Tin- Ini.il llntit i- .^I.'hiii,
■ ml a ^ri'iil many iiiriliaiiii's .iinl IiIiumi iiiu iiinpli' Ii.im' irailinl it.
t,l. liiwliiitii liil llii'V na'li till' . •'I. IMMI limit '.' .\. 'I'IiiH' air a ureal iii.iiiy wlm ri-inlit ij it
iii'tnii' till' iii'U n'uiil itiiiiis III .'^.'IIMI ill |Mi>ii ill nhi yiai < amr in fun r. .iml t\ liu >iiii'(' liavr put hi iiinni-y
fiir till ii rliililii I,. .\ unal ni.'iiiN |ii'M|ili' Imm .i<l<i|ili'<l tliiil plan. Tiny liavr piil in tin lull limit
fill tlii'iir'i'hi'n ami now llirv an- at wm k lilliii;.' up an .ir< niiiit fm tlnii i liiMirn. aiiil in '.lii> w ly lav
iiiu liy iiiiini'y. In that way lIu'N >'\ailr thr law.
<,>. l)ii many of that ija.'-M nf ilipiwilnih fi«i,miitly witlrlraw tlnii ilipiihil'" • .\. \ i-* ; in ihr
"pi IliU nf till' year. \\ r vn ill, liiirinu thin mmitli ami tlir lir\l, prrhap.i. pay niit ipiitr a lai^i' a mi Hint
III iniiliiy III Hiimr of llin.sr piiiplr, wliii u ill want In ImV a hnlisi' for tluiisrlvrs. tnl pi.'<l Imw lilliM
ill).' Inls ami liiiiiNi's all' I'liiiip, ami xninr nf ihnsi' pciipjc will want to Imy a piirr nt luinl. I Unnw »■'
'III' pa\iii^ nut a ^rtat ili'iil nf iniini'V fi'i' that piiipiiHi' fni Imyini; Intn in thin ■ it>.
Ity Ihi' ( 11 MUM \s ;
<,•. I»n llicy Imy xaraiil lilts ? .\. Itiiililini.' jnls
liy .Mr. FitKKii :
•,'. .\ri' tlii-Nt' .sniiiN paiil nut In mi'ihanii s nr lalmiii iii^ pi I'I'l' ■' A- In iln ' ii'-mmi'i - 1 -pakr nt.
4il
iiM prrft'f to invest Ilis iiioiicy in tliiit way iuHteiiil of in real
III take tlit.'ir bank Ixiok with tliciii
Liquoi* Traffic — North-we«t Territories.
]\y Mr. (■ vUMiv :
I). Ah a rnl<'. iln you axk tlioM' |H!opli' wliat their iweiipulion Ik? A. We have to iiHk '.lieiii that
\\ hi II they lirHt iie|io!<it, so us to get their iiaiiies on tiie iHiok.
liy Ml. M. I,k\n:
(,l. Ilnw hiiiK ihies it take a iiierhanii' tii .save !<I,INNI? A. That (U'penils u|ioii liiiHinesH ; hoIIIc
iiierhani'H laii s^ive a great ih'al more iiinney than othei'M. If a man is Kteaily "t Work ami his family
are earning. |iriiviileil they are Iota! alixlainers, they can .save !<!|,(NM) in .St. .fohn in tliree years.
i). How many of a family woiiM he have? .\. Himself with a hoy anil a girl earning.
i). Mow long woiilil it take an iniliviilnal mei'hanie liy hiniM(Jf to earn .SLfNIO? A. I know me-
ehaiiii's who live iM'tter than I ilo, whii.te hoiises are lietter fiiriiisheil than mine, ami who have all the
eomfoils ami iiniveiiienees that a great many |irofesNi<imil men have not. They have money in the
Hiivings hank : they have Imt little or nothing in their hoiiHes, Imi they |iiit all their money in the
mivings liank. 'I'his they ilo so as to he ahle to get it when they want it, anil, until that time conieH,
the money reiiiaiiiK there. This they woiilil .siHUier ilo than invest in real eHtiitc.
Hy Mr. Ci.aiikk :
(). Von think that thai mai
CHtale '.' A. I think so.
i). l>o lliey think that when they are moving aroiiml they
easier than a house? .\ Ves.
Ity the CiniKM.xs :
1,1. What is the average expeii.se of a meihaiiie who is not a total alistainer ? A. The orilinary
man. who if a moilerate ilrinker I mean a man who ilrinks a little hut iloe.s not get ilrunk -will tiinl
it losts him -SI a week for his liijiior ; that is .•s.Vi a year. He will ailmit that, hut the unfortunate
part of the la.se is that if the huslianil is fonil of lii|Uor his wife gets fonil of it too, anil the chances
are that the I'hilii.eii will soon follow them ; if a man ilrink socially ami respeetahly he in liahlu to
■ Irink too miieh ami his ihihlreii are likely to ilrink too, ami in a very little w iiile there is troiilile in
the family. I am intimately aei|Uaiiiteil w ith .some of those people anil I often go to see them.
J{/f Judy MrDimnhl :
lixfiTT. How much ftii'tlH'f ill lii.s tostiinony do you want to (|uoie? — I wimt to i-ead
tlio tolluwiii;: :
Hy Mr. Ci.xkkk;
(.}. |)o those people who deposit in the savings hank have any ililKculty in getting other invest-
ments for their money if they ihoo.se? A. They are not tlie kiml of pi ople that like to make invest-
ments, for they have not got I'onliilenoi' in them. I ilirect their attention sonietimes to uorporatiou
anil provimial lionils. iiml tell them that they hail hetter make arrangements to get uoine of them : hut
not many of them take my ailvice.
By the CllAlKM AN :
What interest ilo you pay ? A. l''our per cent.
Ky Mr. Ci.aukk :
How long is it sinre the new arrangenientH were iiitroilueeil ? A. .Inly, IMS".
people who have deposits in the saxingH hank look u]ion their investment; do
How do the^
they think it seinre? A. They do : they have thorough eonlidence in it.
(,». Do you have deposits in the .savings hank from people who reside in other countries? A. Yes:
we have de|M)siti from the I'niled .States.
1^. Would that lie people who have lived here and have gone away? A. \en: and they keeji
sending tlu'ir money to us all the time.
Hy .Mr. Cak^iin ;
i}. Are their families here ? A. Tliey are .single men who have fathers, mothers, hrotliers and
sisters living here, and they keep up their eonneetions.
Ily the CllAIKMAV :
(,». I >o these people hope to eome haek ? .\. They intend to come hack.
;{S(!'« 7". I>iil you ((ill tilt' iittciitioii of tlie autliofities to tlie .sniugjiliiij? that was
going on ? — -No, not very oftfii ; I notiticd them, liowevt'f.
.■<,S(>7H. I)id you not consithM' it your duty to cail tlie attention of tlie Canadian
Pacitif Hallway iiutlioritieH to thi' u.se made of tlioir ciifs ?-— Other people generally
knew it.
.'5.S(>7y. Did you con.sider it your duty to call the attention of the company to it?—
No, I did not.
.'1S(»80. Did you'ever call attention^^ to it ? In one instance I did.
David Wiiitk.
442
"R:
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
k -.liciii that
ant to read
notliers ami
SHOMl. Wlmt was done tlion ? — They iiotilitd tin- pdiif iiml told tlitiii tn In- inori^
civreful in .searching' the cars.
.'J8()H2. All this went on until the one case you have nientioned occurred .' Yes.
3868.3. Did you notify the police ? - Yes, T tried to assist them.
.■<8r)84. Still you found it impossible to stop the practice .' Yes.
.'{8()8.'). Do T understand you to say that when a man partakesof intii\iciitiii<{ liipior
to any extent whatever, even thouj,'h m<»st nuMlerately, the Canadian Pacific Hallway
Company would dismiss him? So far as the rules ;;o that is the instruction if they
arc known to do so.
.'58f)8fi. Suppose a man takes a ^da.ss of ale at his dinner e\ery day would that \te
grouiui for dismissal from the Canadian I'.icific liailway ? It would, acrordinj; to the
new Superinteiuient.
.1S()S7. Must the employees on the Canadian Pacific Hailway he total ahslainers?
— Total abstainers get preference in all cases.
;J8(1S8. From your own knowledge are all the cmi)loyees on the Canadian Puitic
Railway total abstaiiu-rs? — No, they are not.
■38()Hl). Are a proportion of then not abstainers .' ^'es, a \cry large ]>roportion of
them are not.
.38090. How did you come to bring this blue-book with you ? -I had this ]iarl of
the e\idence looked up.
•3809I. How did you come to bring this (iovernment blue-book witli you .' I brought
it to (b'aw attention to that evidence.
.■{8()92. Do you consider it gives your own \ lews ? - \'es.
:<sr>9,3. And you brought it in order that the Commission might ha\e that informa-
tion 1 — Yes.
.38694. Does that evidence commend itself to you ? — I approve of it.
.3869:"». Tt gives suppositious cases of a man spending .*! a week on beverages and
another man !?! on going to the theatre and another that unich on horses and another
.*1 a week at the shooting — are not those men spending their money on what they
plea.se, and is it not their right to spend their own money on what they please ,' Hut
there k only one thing that demoralizes, that is the drink.
.38696. \''ou think J?! a week spent in that way demoridi/es '. Yes.
.38697. Do you not know hundreds of men whouse the beverage in moderation ? — It
may lead to immodei-ate habits.
.38698. Do you not know hundreds of law-abiding I'itizens who use them in mrKlera-
tion ? — Y''es.
.38699. If those people choose to spend ."i'l a week on those bcM-rages and you
deem them good citizens, where is the demorali/ation in that case ? (Ji'doyou think that,
us a matter of principle, it is wrong for a man to take intoxicating beverages at all .' I
think it is wrong.
38700. Then it is wrong not only to license to sell, but it is wrong for n man to
tak<' intoxicating beverages? -Yes.
.38701. It is on that view you founil youi' opinion ? Yes.
JJy Rev. Dr. McLend :
38702. Do you think, from your observation, that drinking in moderation t<Mids to
excessive drinking ? — Y'es.
.38703. Do vou know another business <jf the same character' as the li<|iioi' business?
—No.
■38704. Do you know any other business that has to be restricted and limited as is
the liijuor business ? No.
3870.5. Do \'ou know any other business that has the same injur-iotis <;tl'ects on
family life, public morals and the business interests of a community as has the licpior'
l)usiness? No.
.38706. Do you think the liquor trade might be fairly well prohibited if there were
competent and honest officials? Y''es, that would go a long way towards rerrroving the
tratfic. Of course such a law would be broken like otliei' laws, but I beliexe it would b<,'
a good law if it was carried out fairly well.
443
r-.i<|iioi' 'rnitH('^\oifli-\v«'si 'r«'nirori,)s.
Uif ,/iii/i/f Mi'ltoiiiilil :
:i^707. In iiiiv man i|ut'siiiiiii'<l, wIk'ii li<- i-iili'i-< iIk- ••iii|ilii\iiirii( ni tlii' ('ikiia<liiiti
I'acilic Kikilway, ns in wIh'IImt nr iml In- i^ a lutal aliHiiiini-i .' Nut \*'r\ ut'tcn
,'IM7oh, TImmi it JN not a l«">t of i'iii|i|iiviiiftii to Im' h total alHlaiiit'i' ' Not until
tlii'V nvt liiylicf ii|>.
.'IMjOlt. Wlial «|o \iui iiiraii l>V liiulliT il|i f I liiraii as tlicv xi'l Uli.
.'tH7l(>. Voii iiD'aii tlial it' a mail iMToiiirsi iciiiTal Maiiau<T lir iiiiihI Iicii lulal altxtai
HIT .' Tlicy ^^ill Ih' uIm'Ii tin- coiiiiiany lav* ilowii laws in tliat rlli-i'i.
."1871 I. W'lii'ii ilu'V >{i'l liiyiirr |io.><iii(iiis iIh- t'oiii|iMiiy !•• iiiorr strift, I hii|)|m»w« ?—
ill. IT
liiliti
IllOl'f l'l>H|MtllN|lllllt \ (III tiM'lll
puny
•'t."*?!-. Ila\r VOII to sjjfii an ayii ciih'iiI uIiimi \oii imiIit llitM'iii|i|oMiii-iil ut tl
( No.
.'<X7 I "l. I 'o you know wlii-iliri sunic liaxf to do so ' | I'luijij noi sav.
If IJOIU-
it
J'-^
l!;>(>
II -Jf
iTf!
'!'H'».MAS ('< »NNO|{S, ot' llanlV. «liulfsal<' li<pini iii.i.liaiii. on licin;; duly sworn.
tl<>|HiM>il Us follows :
.■Im7 I t. Ilow Iom;j li.i\f \ou if>*id<Ml in Itaiitl' Si,\ yt'aiN.
.■{'^7l-"». Ilow loKj; liavf you rfsjili-d in tli*- 'I'lTrilorit's I - TUi' Miiiif liiiif.
.■<H71<i. I>id yon conn' licit- from oiif of the otiii'r prox iii"'<'s .' From Ontario.
.■»H717. What part ! ('..Ihiui;;.
.'i.*i7l'^. \'oii Miw till' working; ot' ( III' pi'oliiliilorx >.\>,ti'iii lific JH't'oii' Ui Ma\' last
wIh'Ii till' lifi-nsf s\s|riM caiiif into t'oirc. and \oii lia\i' «i'fii tin- workiii,:.; of the licciiM'
systiMii since, I siip|Misi' .' ^■(•s.
.■JH7i'J. W'liii'li do you foiisidi'i' |in'ftralili' .' 'i'lii' licfiisf law.
.■tM7'_'(). Was tlici'f iiiiicli sniii^;;|iii^' of lii|uor Ix-forf 1st Ma\ last' Tliat wastlir
only way in wliii'li it could Ik- luoii^lit into tlic count r\.
.'{S7l.'l. Was tlifif miicli liijiior lirou;;|it in '. N'cs. ipiitc a loi.
'.\^~'2\1. Froi.i wliicli direction ; {•'lom liotli east and west.
.■iS7L'.'l. Were tlieie liiaiiv ill
aees w
liere illicit trade was I'arried on li
Th
were ei(;liteeil at one time, to my know |ed;;i-.
• <H7i.'I. ho yon mean places where liijuor was sold hy the yla.s
.'!S7-'>. \\'li;il \<- the characler of till- litpior sold ' All kinds, laaiidy, |,;in and run
.■iS7L'ti. Some wa.s ;'imkI and some had, I suppose .' Yes.
;t.'-<7-7. Mow inaiiv iilaces are there here now selliiiL' liiplor f 'riien- are four, thrr
retail and one wholesale.
.■iS7l.'S. We understand there is .•iiiolher lilii
•re, thcCanadiah l';icilic ltailwa\
hot.'l ?- Ye:
th
.'«H7:.".>, So
I' sllllllner.
•f li<-(
here are lour retail and one wliojesali
That ii
:WM). So far
it IS earriei
! out
as you can s|K-ak is the license law well carried out
Ih
I think
IS well as a li<|Uoi' law can ne carriei
d out.
.■JS7."II. We are told that the liis|N-ctor of Licenses lives ijiiite •> distance away ! -
Yes, he li\('s at Cali;ary. Me comes here iK'casionally.
.■tS7.'<l!. When he dix's come, does he appear to lie desirous uf doiny; his duty .'
Certainly : if any complaints ar<> iniulf it is of course his duty to liMik afl<>r them.
■'tN7.'l'(. !>id you find that under the old law the North west Mounted i'oli<i
tried to do their (luty '. N'es.
■{S7-U. Knim your ex|M'ri«'iiee do you think a prohiliittay law could Im> carried out
in the Tcrritorie.s .' No.
1>AVii» WiiiTi:.
#i
67 Victoria.
SesHioiml Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(lulv Hv«iirii.
riUTIi'il "III
.'I.H7:I*>. I >ii yoii tliiiik mu'Ii a hi\\ wmilil In' iiii|ii'ai'tii'ikl)|)' ! I tliiiik ><i. I iln iiut,
kiKiH' lit' iiiiy lulililiuiiiil incuiis tliiil fotilil Im- Hili>|ti)M| in pifvi'iit lii|u<ii' foiuiii); inio the
I'liiiiitiy.
.'tr^7-'t<>. I'll \iiii kniiu in wliat '~lia|i<' lj<|iii>l' >mis lii'iiu;;lil in in tlir iilil ilav>, »as it
in ki'its, I'a-k-.. At. ' In li.-mcU, ami il «as ajsn s|ii|i|H-(l inastuur \»'V 'tiiI Imtc and alno
a>< (.'in^i'i' ale anil siula walrr ami il nmi>> |ilart'i| in I jir iniilillt' ot )ia('ka;;<'s of iiu'icliamlist^
litiil ill rnili-M of I'altlui^i'H.
.'tM7'(7. I >ii yiiii kniiN^ anytliiiiL; alHiiit ijir use ut' otlin i'i)in|i<>iinils tlian lii|iiiir for
Ih-\ i-i-ai;i' |iiit |Hts> s, I ini'an |iaiiikiili'r ami i'iiiii|iiiiniil'- i>l llial kiml ' I liaxr sn-ii it
llsl'll.
;tH7.'l."<. W'lial iiaxr ymi mmmi iwol .' I'ainkilii'r. it-il ink, ( 'aiii|ilii-H s ( 'at liaii ic
( '•iiii|HMiiiil, .lainaira ;;in;;<'r ami nlliiT ><iirli iiiixtiiri'.s.
.■<H7.'l!t. Ari' llii'i'i' any sii;;;rcNtiiiiis ymi can uUrr in tlir C'iiiniiiis>.iiiii in i('j,'aiil tu tin'
lii(iuir law willi a \ii'w to niakiti;: il inure x\orkal>lf ,' I think it is a mtv ;{(mmI law as
it is now.
//// Ji'rr. Dr. Mr I. < Oil
.■l'*7l(i. ^'mii wi'i'f Ik'I'i', I Ml I >| MISC. Ill •loll- tile licrnsc law NM'iit into o|M-ratiiin ,' -Yi-s.
;{H7II. Wlial lilisiiii'ss ilid you t'ollow ' I k.'pl liot.'l.
.■tH7l:.'. W't'iT yon a li(|iior sdli'i' ilirii .' Vi-s. I soM li(|iior.
;|H7IH. hill you si'll it o|icnl\ '. I ilo not consiiliT I iliil.
.'tH7 1 1. Wrrr you I'NiT fonx ii-ii'd ? Vi-s.
;ts71"». IHdyoii liaxi- iinytliinj; to do x\ itii tin' Mnii;,'iilini; 'liat wriil on f I had to
•-iiiimjflr Hoiiii' ill ordi-r to xi't lii|iior in hi'i'i-.
.■<H7J(!. ^'oll think Jifi'iisc is inct'i-ialili' to |ii'oliiliit ion ' ^'<•,s.
.■W7I7. ^'ou say tht'l'i- wi'fi' I'iijhliM'n [ilarrs M-lliii!,' illicitlx heir lift'orc I hi' liiinsr
iaxv niiiir into o|M'i'at ion f ^'i-s, at oni' limi'.
.'l'"<7 Ic**. Was it ojifn sail- ! I do nut know that I'M'iyiiodx could i;t't it, liiit cxnyhody
wi'll known could alxvays j.'ft it,
.'tH74!t. Ilaxcyou a retail liccnsf noxx- ,' No.
:lH7"i(l. NVIial is the smallest i|uantity you are allowed to sell ' One liottle.
.■l>'7.''il. l>o you ever sell les.s ? No, not piirticulai'ly, I u'ive luts axvay for I .iin
mil |ii'excnted t'roiii .uix in;: a man drink.
.■tH7i")L*. I think you said that the license law is |ii'o|ierlx carried out .' I do not.
see hoxv it could he ciirried any iM'tter.
.■lH7ri;t. ( Miier xvilnesses haxe (lecl.ired that it is not carried out? -lVrha)is t hey do
not know alioiit il.
;tS7"iJ. What hours haxe you to close ; -Hiilfisat Mto'cloi'k amlSatunlay ni;i;hts nt
7 ami till- xxholesale places aie iiiinxved lo keep open until lU.-W.
.'{H7.">.">. l>o all the places close up on Sunday ( Yos, so far as I knoxv.
,'JH7i"»(>. J)o you lieiiexe sale lakes place after proliiliited hours and on Sundays? — 1
dare say if a slian^'er wished to haxe lii|Uiii' he could l;»'' il-
•■(87")7. I>ul do you heliexcthal t here arc no sales during prohiliited hours.' 'I'here
may lie soiiic after i(.( o'clock at nij;lit.
.■{H7">H. Hut you tliiiik the license law is well carried out as xvell as it can he .' Yes.
.■JH7*>U. Uy that do you mean that no law can lie well carried out? -I think xxi;
o\erstep the mark once or txvice.
.iS7<it(. W'liy is that / I could not say. If a man caiiie to me on Sunday and said
that li(> xva.s sick and xxanted a Itottle of liraiidy, I xxould ^ixe it to him.
•■J(<7tll. And xviial xxould you do if he xvas nut sick? I xxiuild not ;jive it to him.
.■)^'7(i2. Would it he hccausc such an act xxould he auainst tlic laxv ? 1 xxould rather
not carry on husine.ss on Sunday at all exents.
.■<H7tl.'{. I men at otlu'r times duriu;^ prohihited liours, xxould you refuse to sell
liecause it was a;;ainst tiie laxx '. 1 xvould lie afraid.
:<H7(i4. Wiiy? Hecause 1 coulii in- fined.
.■{S7ri."). Do you tiiink tlie licen.sees generally are pi-eveiitecl from selling during
|ii'ohiliited lioui's becau.se tiiey are afraid of Ix'iiiy fined ? Yes, and tweause tlie license
aiitlioi'ities migiit lieiir of it ne.xt vear if complaints xvere luude.
445
^ili
ii
I
i
III
11
mm
m
\j'u[\un' Tnitflc — Nortli-wcsf Territories.
.'(M7)))i Ho it is tiitt out i)t' rt'^iinl fur tlio luw, liiit for ft'iir of iM-iii^ |tiiiiiNlM-<l tlint
|)n'vi-iitH .sail- (luring |)roliiliili'il Iioih-m ', It is Ixitli, I think.
:tH7(i7. You tliihk |ii'oliiliitioii in iiiipriit'tical)!*' : uhv ! Ilfraiiso t lie |)co|>|<- would
|{i*t lii|Uor into tlu> couiitrv liy hoiiii- nintim. If tli<>i'4- wiw such n htw in force then* would
Im> no dillirulty in ^cttin^' liijuor foun .Miinitohfi and from the cast or west, as wiih done
In-fore,
.'tH7*iH. Vol) mean that the |ieo|i|e would lirin^ il in in Niolation of the law .' Yus.
100 pdloMs came from Montana to I gitllon from Mritish Coluiiihiii, MaiiitolHi ur
Ontario.
.'lM7t»!t. It was all smU){J{le<l, of eourse ! - Yes.
.■W77(.). You think it would lie impracticahle to carry out |iroliiliitioii l»eciiu»« there
vould lie illicit impor'tation and sale '. Yes.
:<H77I. ho you think the enforcement of the lii-enne law is iuifiracticaltle, In'cau.se
niun will sell during |irohiliited hours and on Sunday, and to di-unken nicn and to
minors !• Thei-e is not so much daiif^er when a house is under license.
•Wl'2. Is that Itecau.se thei'c are only a few of them here ,' There is not so much
driiikin^ on Hunday now as there was liefore.
.■?H77'l. ^Vas it very ditlicidt to j^et li<|Uor U-forn the licensp liiw came into force? —
.Sometimes it was pretty har<l to j{el in.
.'{H77 J. Why ( -You would have to diMJge the |M)lice, and .sometimes it was easier to
<|o so than at other times.
'.W''>. Were the police sometimes moi-e vij{ilant than at otiier times ,'— No, hut
they were not always at tin- same place.
;W77ti. You had to wivtch the jiolice and see where they were .' — Y'es.
:iH777. I sup|)ose you would have to tind <iut new fords and ca<'hes f- -Yes.
.■|877H. Will you tell me why the man u.sed ('amplM-ll's Cathartic, for that is luiid to
Ix' a ]turj,'ativc .'— So they .say.
.■{M77'.». Then why <lid he use it? -I never use<l any of those things myself.
;{87H(). NVhy did he use that cathartic? -Then^ was sup|Mi8ed to \h' li<|Uor in it.
.■{vH7Sl. And you say they used red ink .' \'es.
.'{87H2. And diHerent compounds containinj.; liipior ? — Yen,
;W7H:\. Anything in n Utttle (— Y'es.
;JH7Hl. Can you tell me why the men u.sed those things .'- It nmst lni\t! heeii
because there was some strength in them.
.'i87iS."). That was when there was no drink obtainable, I supjHise? — I have seen the
time when there was no whisky ii> the town.
387'<(). If it is ])ossil)le to prohiliit it at one time is it not possible to do so at other
times ?^ — The j)oliee might l>e all around the place at one time, audit would be imjMi.ssiblc
to bring it in.
;iH7H7. Did you ever know a man who had not formerly In-en in the habit of using
alcoholic licpiors and who had not acipiired a taste for it, who would u.se re<l ink oi' iIk'
contents of hand grenades, pain-killer and compounds of that kind ! -It seemed to take
the fthu-e of whisky for the lime.
.'icS7.H,H. Was it b«'cause the men were in the habit of drinking whisky and desired a
stinndant and resorted to such things .' -I su|)p<>se .so.
.'{8781). Did you ever see any boy drinking them ? — I ne\er saw any boy drinking
in this counti'y, that is Uiys between I- and II years.
:58790. What about boys of 18 ! — I dai'c say I have seen boys of that age drinkinu
licjuor.
.■i87!>l. Is it a fact that those lirjuors of which you have sjK>ken were drank ? — Yes.
And there was another called Ivxcelsior. I have seen lots of that drunk.
.'{87!'2. An; we to understand that nu-n u.sed those- compounds simply l)ecause they
iiad the habit of drinking alcoholic lii|uids and tlu-y must have soniething and when
tliey could not get whisky tht-y would get tho.se litpiids? -I take it in that way.
.■587!l.'?. You spoke about the four percent beer arrarigemeiit. J)id you sell beer at
any time?- Y'es, we had a regular license.
.■{87i)4. Did you sell anything else when you solil four i>er cent lieer? — Y'es.
Thomas CoNNitus.
4ia
liiMlinl tliiit
ru|>|f wiiiild
tlifl't- would
IS WIIM (Idllf
IllW I — Yl!H.
Iiiiiitiihii (ir
■ciitiNe thm-
llll', ItPCIlUHP
icii mill to
ot so IIUK'll
to force ( —
fan «'iisi(>r to
I? -No, but
<'K.
it IS 8aid to
•If.
>r ill it.
Imvt) Imh'Ii
vo .seen tln'
so at otiicr
> iiii|M).ssibi<'
)it of usin^'
ink oi' till'
iifd to tiiki'
d desiri'il a
y driiikiiii.'
(I- drinking
Ilk /—Yes.
H-U«SI> lIll'V
and wlii'ii
iiy.
sell bt'iT at
lip
67 Victoria.
SeHHiunul Papers (No. 31.)
A. 1894
.■lH7!»'i. \Vlii»ky and brunily f Yi-s, i'v«Tylliin«.
;tH7!l<». Tbat was illicit Kale, of course I Yes.
.'IKTUT. You tbink |>i'oliibiliiiii cannot In- enforced '. I tliink noi.
.'WT'.tH. Dill you ever see |>erniits issued for brin^iiiK bi spirituoiiH li<|Uitrsl Y»'H.
.'iMT'.Mt. |)ii| you liave a iieiniil for sjiiritnoiis liipior ! Yes.
.'(SHOO. |)id you liave |ierinits often '. I su|i|>ose I lia\e bad lialf a do/.en ora do/en
alto^etller.
.■<SH()|. |«'or wliat ((uaiitity eacb I From - to lt» jjallons.
.'{HSOi', |)id tlie (iovernor know tbiit you weri' K'»''ik t^i si'll tbelii|uorf I never
told biin.
.l.xHO.l. hid you ii|i|>ly for lii|Uor fur inediciniil and iloineHtic ptir|MiseN / Yen.
.'t'<HO|. Tben ynii afterwards sold t be lii|uor f < )f cours.- I coulil not i;ci lii|uoi in
witboiit a |ierinit, unless it was sniUKKb'd.
MHHO.j, |'"or wliat |iur|H)se did you get tbe |K'rinil f It served to cover tlie lii|Uor.
.'WHO*!, hid it cover up slllu^gU'll lii|uor .' It would co\ei- a similar <|UHntiiy of
lii|Uor.
;{f<H()7. ^'ou kepi tlie stubband it served to keep you safe.' ^'es.
,'JMS(),H, It, prevented detection f Yes. If tlicy Hearclied tbey would find tbe lii|noi'
covered by permit.
.'{KHO'.t. [s your objection to probibition based on tbe ground tbat it is i : iracti' 'Me,
or is it on principle ,' I would as >ooii liave proliil)ition as licence.
.'iHSlO. Wliy ! It does noi lake any dill'erence to me.
.'WSll. ho you mean til. I., , >u could >arry on tlie trad" illicitly or li'Kallv : 1 '.icy
drank inoi'c formerlv tbaii I bey do now. The bi;,'lier tbe price tbe more tliepropli want
to get it.
.tHKlL'. ho you sell less iiiuler liocnMe tlmii you did iM'fon .' I am sure of it. W iuit
1 mean is tbat tbere is less lii|Uor drunk in |{anfrunilcr license I ban tiierc wa^licfuic , of
course I sell wbolesale, and I would naturally sell a little more.
.'$MHI:(. ho you tliink probibition interferes witb men's liberties f [do. I do not
think a man who wishes to drink moderately should be depriM-d of it because another
man iIim-s not wish to obtain it.
.■{H81 t. What is a moderate drinker? One who takes °J or ^t drinks a day or ii
liottle of beer a ilay.
.■{SHir>. Or bow many more ! 10 or 111 would lie t<M» many a day.
.'JSHlCi. Of iM'cr .' Four or live drinks throughout the day would not hurt any one.
.'^^<817. Is it a wi.so expenditure do you think / If a mini desires to en.joy iiimself
:ind cliiMises to take a drink, he should have the privilege of doing so. Of course he could
.spend the money in other ways.
.■{M8|S. Then |>rohibition you think would interfere with the manner in which a
man would spend his moiu'y'f Y^es, that is the way I look at it.
liHSI'J. So you can be put on record as opposed to prohibition on principle: is that
voiir position ? — Yes.
By Judijfi Mr Donald :
'M^'IO. How do men iiilbctrallic come to overstep the mark in regard to selling
during prohibited hours: is it owing to their desire to sell, or to the desire of people to
iilitain drink f It is owing to the desire of | pie to gel drink.
.■{S821. ho I understand that you object to sell on Sunilay because you object to
i-irrying on business on Sunilay .' Yes, I object to carrying on business on Sunday.
;iHH2'J. Tn regard to Helling after prohibited hours on wt.k days, you do not sell
liecaiise the law forbids it /--\'es,
.'tSf<2:{. Ajiart from the law, would you think it any harm to sell in tbo-,- hours? —
It" a man came in ;ifter hours it would not Im- out of the way to give him a drink so
lung as he was sober, but I think it would be out of the way to give him anylhin.u if
he was the worse of liipior.
^J^.SJI. At any time I su|)pose? Yes, a man the worse for liipior is of no benetii,
to us.
447
! I
:l
1
1?<
lilt
Licjuor Tniffic — Nort'i-west Territories.
;<Ht<i'.">. ))u I uiidor.staiKl that lli«^ |>eniiit.s were not ut' iiuhIi ^ikkI .' Tlicv were a
liiimly tliiiijt.' to lm\f> in case tliere was st-ai'di made.
;{S>J(i. So far as gettin<; lii|Ui>r iutci the muriti-y vnii tliiiik they were not needed '
— You eould yet liinior in withmit tiieni.
;!SS27 I'lUt. Iiaxiny tlie liiniur, you wanted them to pi-iitect the li(|U()i- tVom the
i>ttic-ers.' '\ e.-.. siiu liad to liave them The police were iialih- at any niomenl to i-oine in
,iiid '^eaich \cinr l.ouse and take the liijiior it you had no jiermit to coNef it.
JU/ lie,: Dr. Mr Lend;
;i*^>l.'S. |)id yiiii sell on Sunday hetVx'e the liciMise law eauii' into t'oive ,'~-Ye.s, I
date sa\ I diil
.FAMliS I'dJlOTI'. of Hantf, on heintt iluly sworn, deposed as toliows: —
Jij .hiiUji MrlJiiiiiiltl:
.'iSS^i.*. Where diil you live hefoi-e you <-anie to JJanll' !-- 1 li\cd formeilv at Win
nijit'U' ; iiuil iii-iLjinally , i-anie from Waltord.
;',ss.'i(i. \'(iii Well- visitinjjilu'i'e .'-Yes, duriii;; ihi'ee years : I was heic for a peiiud
of L' yeai's and lU moiitiis, jireviously.
";is,s;ll. Wiien was that.' -I think I eami- in liSS.VHG.
.'iSS;!:;. .\nd you remained '1 years and 10 month.s ? - Yes.
:!s>ill."i. |>ii yiiu kno\\ aiiytlun;; in reijard to licpior iM'inj; liroutjlit in diirin<; that
time .'- Yes, I heard a 1,'iMid deal ahout it.
.'{.*<s;U. HdW was it Ijroujiht in, in what kind of packajj;es .' - 1 liave seen it iMtiiirht
in in 2J •lallon keys.
.'iSiS.')"). Arc you a total ahstaiiier? — Yes. •
.■!SS;>(). .\rc yon faxourahle to prohibition as a )iriiieiple .' I am, if it is properly
carried out.
.'!SS;{7. Are you opjioseil to tiie lieeiisiiij; of the tratHc'f — ^'es, lieeause I think it i-
a very injurious system in any country.
;l,><S.i,*i. |»(i you think it is wroiii,' to license the trade / — Yes, I think it is w rom;
t<i license a man to work such evil as the liipior trafhc works.
WXSWW. Do v(
insider it to l)e a sin to license the trattic ? — Y<'.s, Injcause it is a
sni to u
se the liijuor. So we are told in the word of (iod and, therefore, it is a sin ti
li
icensc those to sell it.
.'iS.*<tO. You think it is a sin to drink liijUor .' ^'es, because (here is a woe pri>
iiouiLced against those who put the bottle to their neij;hl)oiirs lips.
MfSS-H. Ha\e you observed, .since you came here the last time, how the license
system has worked'/ — Not jiarticularly. althou;Li;h ! think it is different to what tlic
license system was in Ontario.
• iS'^lL'. Is it better than that, or not so goo<l f I understand that tlie census shows
that the jiopulation of this place is I UO and you have had e\i(lence that there ai-e live
phues here for selling liipior. I >own in Ontario there woidd have to he a.s many hun
(h'eds before you could have more than one or two licenses. Sol consider the system here
is woi-se tlian it was there.
.SS84'>. Did you notice how ti>e old permit .system worked ? — Yes. I tiiink it was
a xcrv iiijurifius system because it w^in not fiirly carried out. If a man applied for
a )iermit. no matter iiow lar<;ea<|uantity, he would yet it ; they were not at all particular.
.■iss4t. So there was not much prohibition alK)Ut that system ? — It was not prolii
bition nt all.
li;/ h'i-. Dr. Mrhinl:
\\f^t^\'>. So under the provision.s of tlie old system you tlnnk that people couhl gi't
all the li(|Uor they wanted? -Piolmbly not all they wai'ted. If they had they would
I IIOM.AS Con Nous.
448
ill'V WflV il
Ot ll('t*(lt'(l .'
ir tVuin the
ti) coiiii' in
•ef— Yfs, 1
^■'
ily Ml Will
tur a iH'iiixl
diii'inj; tliai
•II il Ixiuitlit
I is j)ru]ii'ily
1 think it i~
it is \\ rcili;;
L'liusc it is it
is il sill tu
s il woe jii'ii
the lii'eiiM'
u whiit til''
■eiisus sliow^
leiv art- Iim'
niiiiiy liiiii
s\'.steii» lii'fi-
hiiik it wa-
!ili|)li«'«l fill
lliartit'ular.
lis iiiit jiniiii
|)lf cmilil .i:<'i
thcv won It I
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
not hiivH us'.'d so iiiiiuyilei'iK'tionspurfhiiscd ill ciruf; siori's. I liasc kiiuw u (lru;,'^ists to
mix iiiroliol ill wiitfr tiiid ui\f it ciiouj;!! tlavouriii^r tosiitisfy people who wiiiited wliisky.
.'{SS4ti. Whiit compoiiiids do yon know the pe'i|iie used other tiiaii we iiave heard
iiieiitioiied to-day ! 'I'hey used piiiii-killer iind e\-erythih;; thai i-ontaiiied alcohol.
lijl Jndiji- MrDiiiiiihl:
.'iSS47. How old are you '. -I am 7-'(.
.■(H8IS. You have been an JihstJiiliei' how iiiiiiiv vefirs ? .'Iti years. 1 rec'olleet I took
a iflass of lupior when I was sick, one preserilied Ity my son. |)r. ISretl.
.■!8!^4!*. Then you never took it unless it was prescrilwd liy a doctor.' 1 lia\e iie\er
taken it e.xcept in such case.
JOHN .lAMES FKUUL'SON, of liiuilK hardware mercliaiit. on l)eiii- duly
sworn, ileposed as follows:- —
//// .///(/(//- Mi'hiiiinlil :
'.\i<S'}0. How loni,' have you residt>d in I'.inH'.' Fi\e years.
.■188.")l. Hiifore that where did you reside .' In Ontario. 1 li\ed in Tc pronto a few
iiioiith.s, liut my home wivs in Ker<;us, in the County of \Vellin<;ton. I li\ed in Toronto
some months before coiniii<r here.
.'{8Hr»2. Ho you know anything; .iboiii the siiui^'u'linj; of ii(|Uor tluit tonk pliice ilieic .'
— T have heiird ii •{(mkI dciil about if.
.■{88r).'t. Ha\e you any personal knowledj^e of it .' — I cannot say I liiive any know-
ledge per.soniilly.
.188.")!. Hid you see intoxiL-atin<; be versi^'es yourself .' No.
.■$88r)."». Are you il total abstiiiner ,' Yes.
;{88i>(). Are you fii\ouiiible to prohibition as a |ii inciple .'- ^'cs.
."58857. Are you opposed to tlu^ licensint; of the side of li«|Uors on principle .' Yes,
1 think it is wronj; on principle to lic'cnse.
.'t88."iH. Ho vou think it is ii sin .' -I think it is wronir.
.'{88.'")'J. What do you think in lej^iird to purchiisinj; lii|Uor as ii bcNciiiye ; do\.iu
think t hilt is wronj,' f il iiiii;lit not iie ii sin in some ciises. but 1 think il is a mistake in
lit her Ciises.
.■(88(>0. You wciuld Id a m;in s individual conscience diitatc ,iv lo whether it was
wioiii; or not I -Yes.
.■}88(il. In vour ciisc-, you think il is wroni; to tiike iit|Uor iis ;i beverage /- Yes.
.■i88()L'. Since 1st y\:\\ last, wc understiind that there has I ii ii license liiw in
ii|MM-atioii. Ho you know how many places -old liipioi before that lime in I'laniV.' I'er-
liaps three or four in addition to ihi' liouses now licensed.
A'// A''*-. Dr. M,-L'„,l:
.■i88().'i. Were the men iiosv liolcfinu lit cii-^c- ciiijiii.'ed in llic illicit ii'.ide before I he
lii'ciise hiw was pilssed .' Yes, i till ik si
.■t88(i4. Have you noticed, iis a n'.drchne.i. I lie ellect of the liipioi- u-.idc on business
Ueiieiiilly, whethi'r it is j;o(m1 or biid .' -ft is bail, beciiuse ii man spends his iiionex' nii
liipior when he should piiv his debts, and he is not d)le to meet his payments.
.■|8S()."). Coiii|iariii;; the stiite of tliini,'^ under license and previously, ciin you sav
Milder which there wjis the more drunkenness ( .My own experience is that I saw more
diuiikenness liefore, at all events I came across it more. Hrinkinj; wjis more popiiliir.
•■!88t)(i. Ho vou tliiui. then there was an attempt made to breiik up the old law by
-liowinit liow much it was violated? I do not know whether there was iiny or;{iini/.ed
iileiiip' I do not think so.
'ii
449
-M :•!)*
m
I
1 ;
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
.■{8f<t)7. Since the license law name in, has tliere Iwen I moan any movement hy
tpnijierance societies to diminish the nunil)er of drinking men / -Yes. a temperance
of;>ani/ation was formed before the license law was jMissed. It has Ween very succe>sful
in obtaining; members, esj)ocially with men wlio were in the haltit of drinkini;.
;{88())S. What is your opinion of j)rohil)ition in jjeneral as a|)plied to tin- country
at lar<»e'/ -I think it rij;ht and desirable.
.■58H()0 r>o you think it is pi'acticable /-Yes, if over the whcde country.
.■{SS7U. In the event of a general prohibitory law Ix-inj; passed, would \ou deem it
ri^iht that brewers and distillers should lie compensated for their loss of |)lant and ma-
chineiy I No.
.'(H871. Nor to licensed dealers either, I sujipose.' I think not.
liif Jiidt/i' Mrhiiunld :
.■SSS7l'. You have siMiken of one of the ad\aiitaj(i s of prohil)ition bcini:' that men
were not able to obtain a supi)ly of lii|Uor legally .'Yes.
.■{887,'V Have you ever thought of the <|uestion of a nnin's personal liltertv. as to
wliethei' he has not a right to choo.se whether he will spend his money for be\ crage pur-
|)oscs or anything of that kind, or whether he will spend it for recreation or relaxation
purjioses, or whether he will |»ut it into impro\'emi-nts in buildings ,' - Yes.
.■{SS74. You say you have consiilered that (|Ucstion. I )o you think it is for vou or
foi' him to decide as to the purpo.se to which he will devote his money? — The result of
prohibition would be impi'oveuu'nts in the right direction.
;'iSS7"). How do you know that men would spend their money for iniproM-inents
and not on drink for beverage purpo.ses? I ha\e the hope that X\\v\ would do so.
">887<i. You haxe spoken of the success of tem|ierance organization^. Have von
found of late years that the temi)erance societies in the churches have Iteen dfiing gooil
work on behalf of temju'rance.'— Yes.
158877. Has not a change taken jtlace in the social habits of tiie people .' There ha--
been a cl^iinge.
;i8878. J>oyou not think that the religious bodies and temperance 1 todies, etc..
Working on those lines have brought about, or have heljM'd to bring about, those changes .'
— -Yes, thev have been working in that direction.
.■t887!'. NVitli a certain measure of success, I suppose? Yes.
:t888(j. W'e have learned that in the Tei-ritories here, comparatively r-eeently, tin-
i.,egislative body has pas.sed a license law?— Yes.
.■tis88|. I sujtpose it wouUl not be out of place to suppose that the member^; oi'
that bodv would know pi-etty well the public sentinient in the Teri'itories ? Yes, I
think the law is a fair indication of public sentiment.
.■{8882. Have you considered at all what total |)rohibitioit mear.s, total pi-oliibit imi
so far as manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liipiors for beverage purposes, in
other words, that no person shall manufacture alcoholic li(|Uors, even for his own u.se, or
bring it in from any other countiy, or to keep it in his cellar. Is that the kiufl of pi-ohi
bit ion you favour ? Yes. <
'.WSM. So that if a man on his own premises and for his own use aiuloul of his own
material made alcoholic li(|Uors. you think he should be juuiished ? ^'es, that would \»-
right, that would be my idea.
.■{8884. Do you know of any country where such a law is in foi'ce ? — I cannot shv
that I do.
,3,S88i"». hid vou e\er hear of any I — I nevei' made a sufficient study of the (piestimi.
;{888(). We have been told during these in(|uiries that there is one such country
the Fiji Tslamls. Ik) you know if that is the case? - T do not know anything aliout it.
,luHX Jamks Fekocsox.
450
|i i
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■ i-iiuiitrv
raiuiot s;iv
ROBERT CEORCJK I'.HKTT. M. D.. of Bantf, .mi In'ing duly sworn, de|K.sed as
olluws : -
hij Jnilije McDonald :
.'Jf^HMT. Ynu iin- a i)li\>ii.'iiiii, I ))elie\<' .' -Yes. ,
.'58888. You are a nicmlMT of the Legislative Asseiiilily nf the Xorth-vvfst Tt-i'ii-
tories also?-- Yes.
38889. For wliat distrit-t?— For Banff.
.'{8890. How lonj;; have you rcsi<le<l in tlit- Territories ? -I have resided without
interruption since the sprinj; of lM8t.
.'58891. Permanently, how lon>^ ? -Sinee Issij. 1 l(«-;;an iny praetiee here in 188(5.
1 .spent the winter in Winnipej^, attendin<; the ses.->ion of the .Medical Collejfe.
.'5889:i. Then you have been in these Terr.turies Ixtth under a prohiltitory law and
also under a license law ? Yes.
.■588Jt."{. We liave been told to-day that sinu;i^liiiji was carried on under the permit
system. l)o you know anythini,' alxmt liiat .' Yes, I do. I know ther'e was a ;;(mk1 deal
of smuggling going on.
.38894. From what direction ? I was \ifv before the railway was built, and I was
Chief Surgeon dui'ing construction here. Of coui-se that »as lj«'fore there was any
<ipportunity of bi-inging in liipior from the ea.st. There was a good deal brougiit in
from Manitoba ami in that direction.
.'5889"). In what kind of packages.' I do not think 1 could say. 1 lia\e lieard
that Ii(|uor was brought in in a great many forms. I know it was brought in as ink.
.'5889(5. We have i)een told that smugglers had hiding places? — 1 think they
])robably hail.
.■588!t7. After the railway was constructed how was tin
country? — It was brought into the counti'y l)y the lailway
shipped i)robahly as ink.
38898. Where was it brought from f From .Montana.
38899. We understand that after tlu- railway w:(.s built it was iirought
<'ealed in barrels of sugai- and rice and so forth ? I lj«'lieve >o.
38900. We have heard to-day that it was brought in in crates of cabbages anil tulis
of butter ? — Yes, I have heard instances of that kind.
38901. When the railway was opened, from what ilirection did the liipior come? -
It came from east and west ; it was easier to bring in that >\ay than from the south.
A great deal came here by the (.'olumbia Ki\er fiom f>|>okaiie Falls and tlu^ direction of
the Wild Hor.se Plains. A gi'i-at deal was brought in from l)onald and Golden.
Several lots were captured while on the road, and captures were made here when the
liquor was being smuggled in from Winnipe;;.
38902. Were those places to whi<h you have referred in the Territories ? — No, but
they were points from which the li(|iior wa> Iirought into the Territories.
3890't. Donald and (Jolden aie in the Territories' -Yes.
3890 5. Ifad 3'ou any opportunity of observing how the North-west Mounted Police
did their duty, whether they honestly tried to discharge their duties? Yes, I think
they did. I thought sometimes they exceeded what could fairly be called their duty. T
am now speaking of the operations of the for«-e in the Ti-rritoiies. 1 had occasion to
travel up and down a giMid deal durii'g the construction of the railway in 1884-S.") aiid
since then, during the time 1 have practised, I have seen the police faithfully ilis-
charging their duties. 1 remember, however, two cases in which I thought they Niolated
the bounds of decency.
3890."i. In what way? I have seen a;i oiJicer. with<iut showniir any respect to the
people on the cai's, go and take liipior out of the satchel-- an<l dispose of it.
3890(i. I)o you mean satchels lielonging to passengers going through ! Yes. I
rememlter one occasion very well. I was sitting in a Pullman, aiul a policeman came iii
and began throwing the baggage alN)ut. He came across a satchel that belonged to a
through passenger and he tiKjk out a Ijottle of lii|Uoi' ami destroyed it. ! remember
that ca.se particularly. I thought it was an outi'age on the passenger. I made inijuiries
451
21— 29.\**
li(|Uor Itrought into the
IS a general rule, it was
n con-
fs* !
.If
i
1 tTt'
im
\i
Iii(£Uor Traffic — North-west Territories.
Hiul t'ouiiil that this gentUiiiiHii wiis a tlii'ou;;h |)asseii;{ci' and I tliuu^ht it was an iiittT-
t'efeiu*' that was scairely \vafraiital)lc.
.'iHi(07. Do you ieineiMb«'r wlietliei- that was in tin; caily ihiys ? It was in ISSti
I think.
."WOOS. \V(> luive Imeii tolil to-day l»y a witness tiiat li<|Uiif was l>niu;;lit in at ont;
tiintt on Pulhnau cats and that there was right of seaieli at tliat time hy tlie jHtliee
force. Ai'e you able to say whether it was owiiij; to such eases as that oecuffing that le<l
to the fight of search iM-ing done away witli .' Tliat was it exat;tly. Tliis ease was
reported, that T have mentioned, and I rememl)er a ^ikhI deal of trouble was made
about it, for he was a person who woukl not allow that indignity to |)ass unnoticed and
he t<Mtk care to report it. That was not an isolated ca.se, for I saw similar ones occur
several times. I undersUNMl that it was owing to that practice that the order was
afterwards given t^> <li.scontinue search on Pullmans of through jm-ssengei-s.
.$8901). Taking the t»i> .systems as you have known them, tlie |>ermit and the licensi;
.systems, which do you think preferable? I think the license system is preferable to the
old .system.
;J8!tlO. I do not ask yuu a,s a ileml)er of the I^egislature what iiiHuenced yourself
personally, but taking the I.«gislature as a Inxly, I desire to ask whether, in pa'-sing the
license law, that l)otly may have l)een considered to have repn'sented the feelings of the
people of the North-west Teiritoriei It svas the conceiitmttHl .sentiment of the i)eople
that intlueMced the Legislature in pa.ssing that law.
;18'.M 1. The i|uestion has l)een raisetl to-day as to whethei-, owing to the In.sj>ectur
being so far away as Calgary, the present law cannot 1m> enforce<l as thoroughly as it
might be. This |)oint has been brought forward Jis a dirticulty in working the law,
and it has been suggested that more Inspectors should be apiK>inted ! That is a point
on which 1 myself have thought very strongly. It was one of the strongest objections
iirought against the permit system that less men were taken to enforce the li«|Uor law.
."iStU'J. We are told that several amendments to the law were intriKluced last
session but that the lj«'gislature closed the .session abruptly, and they were not carried
through .' No amei\dments are necessary to mr)re rigidly enforce the law.
.'l^ilKt. You think the present law is tpiite sutticient ? Yes. I do not beliexe the
peoj)l(^ of the Territories wantetl a law foi' revenue purixises, but they wanted a law that
would at tlu' same time regulate the tratiic.
'.W)\ 1. .\ great deal has been said alM)Ut the permit system, its u.se and its alleged
abuses, and we have lH*en told that the (iovernur, in i.ssuing permits, was intlueuced
\erv nmch by the representations nuide by prominent people from all sections of the
country in favourof parties who applied for |>ermits. Was that the ca.se or not? — I know
it was the case. There was .scarcely any other way he could do. The Lieutenant-(iov
ernor of thes<' Territories probably six or eight years 'igo, may have had a very good
idea of the people here, but within the last three or four years the condition has changed.
It became impo.ssible for him to know to whom the permits wi>i'e i.ssued. He took the
precaution of asking for a reoonnnendation by sonie one. To my minil he adopted
ii plan that was very wrong in askipg that recommendations should be matle by
members.
.'iSKlo. You think it was placing the memliers in n false jiosition.' Yes, f always
took that view of it, and it was the sanu^ view taken by many others whether rightly
or wrongly. The view I took was this ; That I am not selected as .•! public censor over
any onti's inoi-als oi- as to whether they slioulil be restricted oi' not in any way, and if
anyone in my district, asked fo. a permit, I iwver refused the ap|ilication. I represented
one man as much as another, and if 1 was asked to reconnnend jiersons for permits nn
the ground of U-ing a representative, I did not hesitate to make recommendations. I dip
not think I ])Ut my.self in the position so that it might be said that I was elected for the
purpo.se of grantiii,,; permits. I would not be cho.sen by the Lieutenant-CJoxernoi-
probably, but I am cho.sen by the j)eople and ! represent one as well as the other.
;!SiU(). Might it be said that the e.xtension of the peiinit system was really in
accoi-daiu'e with the wishes of the people? Yes.
.'{f^917. It wius ill response to the <lesires of tlu- j^ieople '. Yes.
UouF.irr <iKom;K MniriT.
462
ll
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
.'iHlUH. Kniir yiiui- ('Xjierieiiffs do you think tli<- jnoliilntory law is pi'iu-tii-able of
priforffiiiciit ill tlic 'rt'rritnri(^s? — I do not In-lifNc in local proliihitory laws, I do not
think tiiey an- iiracticiihlo.
■'it>t*.)li). Take what is meant l>y total prohiltition or national prohiltition, a law
])i'ohiliitin>; I In- maniifafturt', importation and sale of intoxicatini; liiniors for iM-xcrayc
|iurposcs, such a law as would prevent you or any one else manufact iirin<; in his own
house and foi' his own use alcoholic heverajjes and would puinsh him for so doini;. I 'o
you lieliexe >uch a moasure would he j)racticable of enfoireinent in Canada .' I think it
woid<l he more so than a local law. I would favour a trial of it.
.■{,S<t-_>0. You would fa voui- a trial of such a measure as that ? ^'es. while I would
not favour a local or pi'ovincial prohibitory law.
•J81(2I. Would you favour such a law accompanied with the ri<;ht of personal search
and domiciliary visits ; -1 would not like to undertake to prosecute.
.■{S;(2i;. How would you carry out such a law/ -I think thei-e are a ;;reat many
thin>;s of a \'ery complicated nature that would rei|uire to he studied I'ai'efully in
cndea\(iurin;; to enforce such a law.
.■!8((2."{. Do you think the peojile of a country such as Canada would pass such a
law .' If they wei'e all like myself they would ti'v it.
.■{8!li!l. Is it because you think jirohibition is desirable as a principle '? — 1 think it
would be better for everybody.
.■{.sil-J."). Then you wo\dd pass such a lav and ;;i\e it a fair ti'ial and see whether it
Would succeed or not ,' — I think thei-e is a very stronj; temperan<'e feelini; in e\.'ry com-
niunity, and 1 believe that if that was taken care of and proper opjMirtunities ;;iven.
the sentiment would develop and ^^row. I believe the ^jrowth of that sentiment would
be a natural condition.
.■JS'.t'if). ]>o you think a prohibitory law would lead to the development of such a
sentiment oi' would lead to a re\olution of feelini;.' — I think, as I have seen it, there
would be a revtilution of feelinj;. but we ha\e not seen it uniler pro|)er circumstances.
.'581)27. I>o you know whethei- such a law is in force in any country ? No. I ha\e
heard yo i .say that such a law was in force in the Fiji Islands.
^(8928. I'nderthe Maine law you are perhaps aware that li(|Uor is not allowed to
1h' kept for sale, but you may have your own cellai- full of it anil jjive it away to your
friends, as you jilea.se. as lonjj; as you do not sell it '. 1 do not think that amounts to
anythiii;,'.
.■i8llL'!(. You tlinik there must be a total banishment of lii|uor .' Total |irohiliition
of the manufacture, if it is jLfoing to be successful.
.■t8il.{(). You think it should be |)rohibited from beinj; ke|)t forpri\ate use also? -
You would liaxf to permit it for medicinal and art pui-po.ses.
.'{8!);U. How do you propose to enforce such a law, what machiiieiy would you use .'
- T have not fjfiven the subject sutticieiu lhou<;ht to practically formulate a scheme, but
I think that with the manufactuiers fairly dealt with and the manufacture supjiressed,
a respectable man'-*' -turer would not enilea\our to infriniie the law. It miiiht Iheii be
carried out. Of c.(Ui>e, there is always the daiiLter that manufacture woubl l;o on in the
hands of less .scrupulous parties. I am not speakinu as a teetotaller, and I do not wish
t<i pass as one, but there .-ire a ijreat many (leople like myself who think that |ieople
would be better without it. I believe there is a lot of people like myself who would like
to see such a law passed.
.■t8!)."<2. In the Territories we are told that, with a |(olicc force of l,(l()(t men doin^
duty as well as they could, they were unable to keep liipior from coming' in from
.Montana and other din-ctions. How would you propose to stop that smu^'filintt .' The
police were not aided to the extent under the law that they should have iMie.n. I coukl
not speak of the sentiment existinjir in Cal^'ary, but I ha\e visited there and I made it
my headijuarters when I tii-st came liei-e. There may be people who are vei-y ;joikI tem-
perance people but who are not in sympathy with the prohiliitoiy law. because it was
nut practicable and evils were connnitted. People i-omin;^ from other countries ami
places where they fjot liquor naturally wanted it. They cante here and found that,
althou<;h lii|Uor was prohibited, there was a larjie ipiantity of very foul stuff. It natur
ally occurred to them that sometliinj; was wionii, that the law was not as effective as it
45;{
SF
Liquor Trattic — North-west Territories.
should be, 1111(1 they pntlmbly did imt see any harm in hieakiiiji it. The sentiment was
against it.
.tyy.'l.".. Then you think the sentiment had much to do with it .' Yes, T do not think
you ean enforce any law again.st the wishes of the people.
.■{H!)3t. J)o you think there should he a Inrye pro|N)i-tion of puhlie sentiment in
favf)Ui' of j)rohil)itioii in oixler that it should 1m> earriwl out t I do,
.■i893."». Then in your o|iinion a mere majority would not he sutticient .' — No.
.SHO'iG. You Ix'lieve the trend of public opinion must be very str'ong? — I do not
think u bane majority should adopt such a law, whicli would l)e revolutionary in its
operation.
.■589.57. You think that with such a ti-end of public opinion as you have intlicated
and with sutticient executive action on the part of the authorities, such a law would Ikj
made a success? -I think so.
•■589."58. You would hope so, I suppose? I wotdd hoi)e so.
■{89.'59. In case of the enactment of a ;;eneral prohibitory law. a law to prohibit the
manufjictuiv, im|Hirtntioii an<l sale of intoxicatinii; li(|Uors for beverai;e purposes, do you
think that brewers and distillers should lie remunerated for theii- loss if plant and
machinery '. — I'ndoubtedly.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod : '
.58940. When changes occurred in the tariff were not some businesses affected ? J)o
you think that those engaged in those businesses should be conij>ensated liy the Govern-
ment ? You are in a branch of business and changes might occur in the tariff that would
cause .severe h)ss to your business and in fact destroy it. Do you consider that you
would have any right to compensation? — I do not think that stands in the same position
as this does. While a change might occur in my business to-<Jay, which would nffect it
ili.sastrously and cause severe loss, last year such a change might have caused you great
profit, and it would be alM)ut even. I do not tiiink that is a parallel case however.
"SSDU. What about the permit system? Were jiermits issued indiscriminately
tlui'ing the last few years of the system ?— I think they were sometimes and sometimes
they were not. Probably if the permits issued during a couple of weeks were taken
they would appear to be jiretty fair. Then again at other times there would be some-
what of restriction. 1 will endeavoui' to make clear what 1 mean. ! know as a matter
of fact that sometimes theli(|uor would be sold after it had been obtained by jiermit, and
sometimes the (Sovei'iim- would relax his vigilance and permits would be issueil very
indisci'iminately, and sometimes he would be incline<l to refu.se every one. Pi-obal)ly
Englishmen who were used to have their beer or rum when they wanted it would ask
for a permit, and because they all came to the Lieutenant-(iovernor, his Honour would feel
inclined to refu.se them all. There was nothing he couKl d(j except to issue them permits
on the recommendation of the members who, as in my case, did not attach any import-
ance to it.
;589-12. |)id you indicate to the (Jovernor that you did not wish to attach any im-
portance to it.' 1 told him exactly what I have told the Commission, that I was a repre-
sentati\e of the people and I would recommend every applicant for a permit without
making any further examination.
.■589b'5. The applicant for liquor statetl that the liquor was for medicinal or domestic
purposes?-- It was usually flrawn up in one form or the other.
."58944. Do you know whether some of the applications were made by parties wlm
were supposed to be selling illicitly (—Yes, ] know of some cases where permits were
obtained, but the permits wei'e more for protection than for anything else as two gallons
was not a veiy large stock if a party wanted to sell it. They would also get a number
of ])ermits and keep them to jirotect the liipior they would hc.ve on hand, and they would
rejilenish it as it was sold, and still the permit would iirotect them.
.'5X94"). l)id the jud'oneiit in th«> court to which referei..e has been made make pro-
hibition impracticable ? Tn viewof thatdecision the stub of any jiermit would protect any
quantity of li(|uor so long as it did not exceed the quantity sjiecified on the permit. If
the juilgment nad been different and if it had been held that the permit could
HoHErcr <iKoi((;K Huett.
454
mi
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
lit tlie last flt'ctiou
I siiigli- insliiiicc ill
issiif Ix'txvi'fii Mr.
in which it was
tiid
old
cover lifjiior u>io»'. I Ix'lieve it would liuve phice«l the jMjliw in i|uit(' a diflV'reiit jMisition
.so far ii« prusefutions were miironu'd.
.■J81M6. Th«Mi are we to uiideiHtatid that the i-epresentatives nt' tin- jH-opie tlici not
st(x»p to nimJe exaniinution or tiiiisidei- whether men wlio used jterniita used them ri>;litly,
or whetlier the seller merely wanted them to proteitt himself ( - They were iisketl if
they iv<juire<l liejuor for medicinal or domestic |)Ur|)o.ses. I am n«>w s|M<aking of |ifoplo
who I know diti sell. The (Jovernoi- wa.s jKjrfectly well aware that where there were
large hcjtels li4|Uor must \h- sold. So far as 1 am concerned I did not hesitate to recom-
mend any one foi- perm.^s.
.'$t<y47. Besides the application for p«'rmit ilid there have to In* so mucii money paid
for the certihcate? — Yes, fifty cents a gallon was paid on spirits l>ut nothing on beer.
.'i8it4S, I)id that go into the treiusury of the Territories or to the rt^venue of the
(Jovernment .' - It went into the Territorial revenue.
.{81)41). As a matter of fact <Ud it go there) — As a matter of fact every cent went
there.
.'JSDoO. Was the (juestion of prohibition rfrsiis license an is.-iit
in the Territories? I cannot say tliat it was. I canitot I'ecollect
which that was an i.ssiie except at t^u'Appelle. I think it was an
l>a\idson and the other candidate, and that was the onlv place
made an issue.
.18951. It was not so in this district? — No. I do not think a temperance candidate
would have taken a great many votes.
.■{8i).")L'. What do you mean by tenipi'rance candidate ? One who canu- forward
pledged himself to the jirohibitory licpior law.
;i8t)5."?. I>oyou mean a prohibitory law or such a one as jn-evailcd under tin
jiermit system? -That would depenil <»n the individual candidates.
.■{S'.tr»4. Was that old .system pi'fthibition or permission? It wa- both. It was pro-
hibition with pei'missive clauses.
."WJ.")."). Which was the more observed, the prohibitive or the permissive clauses? —
Tlio.se whose <luty it was to enforce prohibition were just as zealous and anxious and
energetic in endeavoui-ing to carry out the prohil)itiv(' clauses as were those who had to
carry out the pei-missive ))ortions.
.■5S!)."i(j. Whose dutv vvas it to carrv out the prohibitive clauses ?- The Mounted
Police.
;18'J57. Whose duty was it t<» cai'ry out the permissive clauses.' The J.,ieutenant-
(Jovernor.
.'i81(.'JS. Did he attem))t tocarry out his part as diligently as the police tried tocari'v
nut their duty .' — .\s I have alrea(ly explained, that work was .sonietimes iiiterru|>ted.
.■?8!).'')i). There was a spjusm of feeling occasionally'- I believe the* (iovernor vvas
generally iiiHuenced by the desire to ascertain the current of public sentinu-nt. When
that current wius interrupted he stopped issuing permits, but the current came again
.uid carried him until he stopped again.
.■JSydU. You think the present license system is preferable to I lie old system? —
Yes, [ consider it so.
.'i8(M'il. I)o you think tlit; difference l)etween the two systems is a difTeieiice Irt'tvvecii
piiihiliition and licen.se or between one kind and another kiiul of licensi , in this, that the
jiresent liceii.se system is now controlled by liceii.se coiiiiiiissioiiers and t le other sy>tem
was simply carried on according to the will of the Licuteiiant-tioveriiiT. who personally
issued licenses : while at present these licen.ses must be issued by a Ixwly of license
••oinmissioners. Ts that the difference ? —If you put in that way I cannot see a great
difference. The will of the peo|>le is expressed in one ea.se, while the preiiigative of one
man is manifested in the other.
.SSiMi2. Do you think in a country like this with the present {)opulation it is prac-
ticable for any oHicial to julminister a prerogative of this kind ? I do not believe it is
])ossible to tlo so judiciously and w '1.
.'58!)t)."{. Speaking iilxiut the smuggling business and thi' searching on Pullman cars,
you have said that after a certain period the othcers were not )ierniitted to search the
i'ullmans. Do you know whether, after that prohibition of the right of sean-li in PuU-
455
\
J;
ml ^
t ^ '
Liiiuor Traffic — Nortli-west Territoiies.
iiiiiii <ars, siiiugglt'ivs used tlie sleeping liertlis, lu'cause tlit-y could not l>e seiii'cli«»d? — T
til). I know UN a niattiT of fact they did so.
.'iHJXil. Kxjilain. If. for instance, any one who was known to lie a whisky smuggler
and tlit'v were all known, and ytiu could jiut your Hnger on them -was on board you
would see that he was sioing west and he would have his liquor down to-night. Perhaps
he went to Anthnicite. He would go down by train and have liquor delivered at Cal-
gary or Morley or some other station. He would generally get into tlie car and go at
once to the iM-rtb wliere he had liquor and would go to l)e(l. He would stay in bed until
he came to Itonald where licjuor would be obtained. H<^ would go along to Laggan
where the police were stationed. The police were on the tj'ains and were keeping close
watcii. I rlid not, of course, know all their secret ways and their mode of operation, but
I iiave been up and down sufficiently on the train to know that officials were on the
watch. Men would c.irry liejuor in the baggage cars. l)etween the cars, in different
conqiartments of the cars, in the berths they pulled down in the colonist ears, in the
Pullman cars, in their own satchels and if the train hapjiened to be late they made up
l)erths and the liquor would be put into the bed. The litpior would be thr'-wn off at
one point. The police, as 1 understood, had a |>ei-fect right to get on lM)ard the cars
and keej) a watch on the travellers. I do not believe there was a point on the I'oad
where there was so much li<|Uor shipped as at Laggan. Jt was not only shipped in two
or live gallon lots but even large quantities were shi|)ped. T remember one case, T do
not remend)er bow many gallons there were, where there was .^oUO or .*()00 worth of
liquor brought down in a car of lumbei-, and it was captured. Every possible means
wen- taken to prevent the lic|uor Ixting brought in, and also every possible means were
taken to bring it in.
."uSiH)"). Speaking of the license law now in force, do you think it is working well .'
—I think it might lie l)enetited l)y Inking amended in some particulars. It is a new-
law. No doubt it will be found tiiat there are some conditions which requii'e to be
amended in some directions.
.■>!S!t()G. This is, of course, a small comnmnity enjoying a coi.siderable share of the
summer trad»> : how many people have you here 't — Two hundred.
.iS'.Mw. You say there are live licensed places here, four retail and one whole.sale.
l)o you not think that is a large nundier for a place of this size ? — T rlo.
.■>Sl)tJt<. !><) you know whether those licensees observe the prohibitory clauses of the
license law .' I do not suppose that they absolutely ob.serve them.
.■$f<lKi9. Would you regard the law, then as regulating the trade, and as giving pei-
niission to a certain portion of the trade to disregard the law, at all events for a certain
portion of the time? T do not think they do disregard it, but no doubt many of those
provisions mi"ht be moiv e.vactly carried out.
.■{8!t70. Who.'se duty is it to enforce the law ? - I think it is the duty of the License
Connnissionei's.
.■$8!)71. They are not here? —No, but they could apix)int 1 nspectors or one Inspector.
.■58!t72. But the Inspector resides some distance from here and cannot easily reach
the spot ? -Yes.
;$89".'?. Is the difference between the old system and the present .system this, so
far as the law is concerned, that the old system did not give an opjKirtuinty, except by
permission of the tlt)vernor, to disregard the law (and of course he could disregard the
law as much as he pleased,) while the present law gives no oppoi-tunity to disregard the
law, except during prohibited hours ?— I do not know that f could say that wtus the case
as regards the law.
.'iSDTt. What would be your idea of the difference between the two systems'? — The
opinion I have in regard to the difference is this : that the peoj)le now have a law which
they prefer, for they ai-e no hmger dependent on the caprice of one man. This law,
Ijeing the law of the people, is mf>re satisfactory to them, and they will lend theii' aiti
and a.ssist to carry it out better than if it were another law.
.SSy"."). Have they done so? I think they have.
.■i8!)7fi. Will you state instances where there have Ijeen violations, and where the
people have given their aid to enforce the law !— I do not know that I could state any
instances, but the general sentiment of the people can be pretty well felt.
KoHKirr (;i:oif(iK Hhett.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
s?— Tlif
iw wliicli
'his law,
tlipif aid
.HSi)77. Do you uiulerstand tlic >(«'neral sentiment of the itfojili' to |)ictfr a hirnsf
.system to the old system anil to prefi-r this license system to proliihitictn .' [ tliink ther«
is a very larjje majority of tlie peopie in tiie Territories wlio jirefer this license system
to the old system. I also believe there are a lai';;e niimher who would prefer |ii'oliiliitioii
to license.
.WDTf*. Do you think it would liave been better' to have taken a vote of the people
before substituting; the lieen.se law for- alleged pr'ohibition, that is between license pr'oper-
and pi'ohibition pr-oper' / — f do not think it would ; I do not think it is the best way to
take the votes of the people.
.'{Si(7!'. Do you think it would have been iK'ttei- to have made the (piestion of pr'o-
hibition r<'r.><«s license an i.ssue at the last election.' In the jjr'catei' portion of the
Territories active rrreiusurvs were takerr towar'ds that end. Meetings wer-e held and a
1,'i'eat deal of force and enerjfv wer-e exfiended in endeavour'irij; t(» make it an issue, but,
as [ have explained, no one was willing to take hold for the purpose of beinir the charri-
(liou of the prohibition side.
."iiSllHO. Wei-e ther-e not othei' <|uestions r-eifar-ded as important and essential to the
welfar-e of the Ter-ritor'ies that ovei-shadowed this <|uestion and everything else ; was
tlier'e not the question of r-esjionsihU? governnrent involved/ — I cann(»t .say that there
was. As r'egar'ds the (piestion of tempei-ance, ther-e was a temper'ance candidate at
Qu'Apj)elle, and he was about the only one. Out of twenty-six nrember-s ther'c was
urdy one who ])osed a.s an oppoirerit to the .systenr of r'es]ionsibl(' gover'nmeirt.
.'58981. Have you obser-ved whether- ther-e has Iwen nror-e or less dr-inkirig under
license than befor-e ? I can oidy speak fr-om my knowledge of the distr-icts of itantl',
.\nthr-acite and Canmore. With the.se places 1 am somewhat fanriliai-. Outside of them
I may say that I have been in Calgar-y (|uite often sin(-e the election and ha\e been in
Hegina and lived there for some time. I think ther-e is ver-y much less di-inking here
now than thei-e was under the old system.
.'{898l'. Is that tr-aceable to the licensing of the ti-ade her-e oi- to the intluent-e of
the temperance societies her-e ? — T think there is an element irt Ixjtlr tending to bring
about that I'esidt. The largest element, perhaps, is that ther-e ar-e fewer- places selling.
Take this town, at tme tirrre T think ther-e wer-e as many as twelve places selling.
.'J898.5. What ha.s become of the people here who .sold illicitly and who are not
selling now ?- Some left the place,
.S8!)84. Ar-e tho.se who now sell the same as those who sold illicitly ? -Some of therrr
are the .same people.
.{898.'). Do you think thei-e is any illicit trade here at all ? — No.
.S8986. Do you think there is le.ss li(|uor .st)ld rrow tharr there was befor-e '. Yes. I
lielieve ther-e is le.ss sold now.
.58987. You think there is le,ss sale even, although the trade is permitted now ? —
Yes, I think there is less. There are not so many people here now as in years gone liy,
the r-esident population has decrea.sed. That may account for- the diminished t:oiisump-
lion in some parts. In r-egar-d to the mines, T may say that I do not think there is
ver-y irruch liquor .sold to the miners. And another- thing is that there ar-e less places
where liquor- can bo got, though there ai-e (juite enough
.■18988. You ar-e pi-opr'ietoi- of the Sarntarium ?- Yes.
.'58989. Ha\e you a license ? The licensee has a license.
.'58990. Then it is not under y(jur management ? No, the house is managed by Mr-.
C'art'r-ey. He nranages the hou.se for me ; but the licenses of the bar- and of the billiar-il
rooms afe outside of him.
.'58991. Are they in the establishment her-e? -Yes, a portion are.
.'5899:i. Did his establishment sell under the four per cent beer plan ; Yes. The
i^anitarium anri the Canadian Pacific Railway Hotel had special privilege's gr-anted to
ilicin that were not given to arry other hotels in the Territories.
.'5899:5. Was that done by the Dcmrinion (iovernmenf? It was brought aliout by
the Dominion (xovernment. The prerogative of the Lieutenant-Cioxcrnor- hail to be
excrci.sed and he had to be the consenting par-ty, and by the Depart rrrent of the Interior
it was consider-ed wise that lieer and wine should be allowed, arui ai-eordingly both this
liotel antl the Canadian Pacific Hotel were allowed to sell wine and U'er-.
467
1.;
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
■'{HU'.M. Atf) tlhmi* (ill till- pliu-(!s (hut Huld .' Vi-h, n(i t'nr us I am iiNMiri*.
/ly Jiii/yf McDiittnld :
3r<0il*i. Alxiiit the t*Mn|M*niM(-<- <aii(li(liit<*H hihI pnihibitiuiiiMts iit the Hlfftion : ijiil
tJH'v urniiiii/.f f Y«'s.
;iS!(yti. Ami tlit'iv was only one {iiiihiltition caiuiitlate ehfte«J f- Yes. the caiiiliiiat)'
fi»r «^u'Ai>|M'iif.
.■{SIH17. Only lint- in the whole Territories / Yes, and there are 2(» inenil)er«.
:IH!(9S. You have Im'bm aske<l wlietlier the people were not ponsitierinj{ more iju-
(piestion of res|H)nsil>le p>vernnient and other issues. Was there anything to prevent
the prohiliitionists, if they wished, placing a man in the lield who was in favour ot
res|N>nsil(le ^overiunent and also a prohibitory law ? No.
HSiMt'.t. Hut you have said that you do not think they would have l)eeii suecessful
if they had iMTn put forward? — I do not think they would.
•■>J)000. Yon think the larger nuniln'r of the people were not in favour of prohilii
tion .' -1 ctiuld not say.
•'S'.tOOl. What is your opinion ! ^ly opinion is thai there is a large |H)rtion not in
favour of ]iroliil)ition, hut 1 ean not .say whether there is a ma.jority or not ; there is in
this district eertaiidy.
■'MI0U2. If there liatl lieen a uuijority in fiivour of prohibition do you think tlie\
would have endeavoured to earry their sentiments to a legitimate eonclusion liv
plaeing caiKlidates in the Held ? I do not think there is a nuijority or anything like ;i
majority in favour of local prohibition.
■°t!)UO-'i. I am speaking of prohibition such as is asked for ,' No, I do not think thcri'
is a majority in favoui' of prohibition at all.
.'51)004. Have you any means of knowing, taking the Teri'itories as a whole, wlmt
the sentiment of the people woidri be in !-egai-d to the i|uestion of prohibition t -1 donm
think that \ have.
:?9()0"). You have been aske<l in I'egard to the ijuestiou of submitting this matter tn
the vote of the jHHiple, yea or nay, and you have said tliat y<m are not in favour nt
that ! — I am not.
.'tOOOtl. You are a repi'esentutive of the people, we uiuierstand ? Yes.
."WOO". Are other Meml)ers of your opinion t -\'es.
."VJOOH. Which is more consistent with the constitutit)n of (Jreat lii-itain and Canada,
to take a voto of the people on a question, or leave the matter to their rei)resentJiti\('v
and allow tlieni to decide? J tjike it that the proper way is to leave the representativi";
to decide tlio.se (piestions, if they are in keeping with constitutional usage.
.'{JtOOit. Would you not hope in case suchacourse were adopted, that representiiti\i'>
would give the matter niore careful consideration than could be given to it on a jKtpular
vote of yea and nay, especially when taken on an abstract |)ro[)osition .' Yes, I think
they Would probably arrive at more sensible conclusions.
.'{iiOlO. You have sf)oken alxatt liquor permits being issued to cover li(|Uoi'. Po I
understand that peojile would have large quantities of li(|Uor brought in, not on peniiii^
but snmggled in and that from this stock they would take smaller (piuntities wliich
they woidd keep to sell, and have permits to cover them ? Ye.s.
•VJOll. .And they exercised care that the quantities were within the limits spec i
tied ! Yfti.
•'<90I2. You think permits were IssuhI for that purpose? That was counnon talk
.'HKM.S. In your o])inion wiis the greater portitm of the permits i.ssued used legitim
ately ? Yes.
•'59014. I think you have explained that, although the right of search on Pullman
caiN was tiiken away, still the j)olice hiul power to watch and trace the liquor if po.ssililr ;
and that li(|uor was yet carried on Pullman cars ? Y^es.
.■$901."). Mr. Stewart, of the Govermnent Park, has stated to us that in his opini'in
the |)ark would be better under section 19 of the i-egulations as regards the li(|Uor tralli''
than under the present law. What is youi- opinion in regard to that matter! Of coui'^i'
section 19 refers to the North-west Territoiies as well. If 'Slv. Stewart tliinks iln'
Ho»Knr (iKOKfiK Hhkit.
458
^1
57 Victoria.
SesHional Papers (No. 31.)
A. 1894
ftioii : tliil
; caiulidtit)-
Imm's.
\l iiiur« tlii'
to prevcMii
I t'nvciui' lit
1 sm-c»'s.st'u I
ut' {iruliilii
I'tioii not ill
tln're is ill
tliiiik tli<'\
icltlsioll I IV
tiling liki- M
think tii<-i<'
*iioU>, what
, ]_I do tin!
hi|Uoi- tt'iitlic in the puik shoiihl Im' phioMi un<li-ithe l>(>|iui-tni<'nt of tlx- Interior and itn
i'nt'or«i>nient ciirrit-il out hy thi^ otIicialH of the imrk, 1 think, (M'thiips, he is i|uit44 ri^'lit.
.■JiM)l(>. You fcf«'r to this iIhumo t That chiusf of iouihc tonncctM it with tin*
Ti'rrit^irieH.
.'{'.IUI7. lit* siinpiy nifitnM that the hi-cuschiw should vi'Uv to thf TciTitorit-M hut not
to tiitf H(H-ky MountJiinH Park and tliat it should tx- h-ft to In* rt'^'ulati-d hy clausf \[> of
the Act n'f«'rrinx to the park? That would Im- more satisfai-tory than th»' coniiilicatj-d
jHisition in whioh tin; matter n'sts luiw.
.'JitOlH. Is it conipiicatcil at pi'esont I Yt's, owin^ to that i'lauK«>. Tiie I )f|)arttn<>nt
claims jurisdiction undrr that claust', an<l also the rif^lit to ini|>os<' a fin'thcr tax of .«<'><).
Thcr*' aif |k'o|iIp within the park who Iwlicvc that thi' l>fpartnu-iit has no such riijht,
tor the reason that the section under which this ri>;ht has U'cn tlainied has Iweti
fc|M'aled hy the (NissinK of the license law foi- the Territories, which certaiidy applies tf»
the park as well as any other portion of the Territories.
.'I'JOIO. Is that matter now liefore the cotn'ts / Yes.
.'tyU2(). Which would you prefer, that such a re<{ulation as that should l»e passed
iiiid applied to the pai'k, or that it should Ih; in the same position as the rest of the
Territories under the license law? I prefer that the re^'idation should hi- applied to the
park.
.■<!H)2I. Y'ou would like to have a s|iecial system for the jiark itself i' Yes.
.■M)()22. .\nd keep it entirely free fi-om North-west lei;islutioii ! Yes, or at idl
events ;;ive it one or the other.
.'$!tU2.'l. Hut which wouhl you prefer ?- I pi-efer to have it inuler the park iiiaiui-
ycment.
.■{!tO"J4. You think the whole matter connecteti with the I'ark should l»e dealt with
liy the hepartment of the interior /--Yes.
lis matter tci
n favour ut
md Canada.
resentiitivt'^-
resentati\i<
'esentativi-
in a ]M(]iulai
i^.s, 1 think
uor.
Do I
on permits
itities wliiili
limits apt'
II-
)nnnon talk,
ised le>;itiiii
on Pulliiiaii
if jMi.ssililc ;
his opinion
li(|Uor tratll<'
'. Of c«>uisc
thinks ilic
-Yes.
-Yes.
WILLIAM .McNAH, of ManiF, theological student of the Presliyteriaii (.'liuich,
nil lieiii;; dulv swom, deposed a.s follows ;—
/};/ Judge Mi' Donald :
.'{•,(02"). Are you a minister here?—! am a student.
.'iitOlMJ. Have you char>;e of the Presliyteriaii Mission at llanft'.' Yes.
.■i!>U27. I>t) yiai know anything of the smuggling that is said to have taken place in
I liis district ? No, I do not.
.'<ltO.!8. Have you considered the prohihition question 1-
•'itlO^y. Are you favourahle to prohihition .' Yes.
;)!K).'<0. .\re you oj)po.sed to the licensing of the trattic /
By Rev. Dr. MeLi'od :
;iltO.'ll. What op|3ortunities have you had of oliseiving the condition < if att'airs in
the North-west Territories .' I have had every means that it is possible for a person in
my [losition to have, f have had my held of work along the line of the railway. .My
field during the greater part of the summer has Imm-ii along HiU miles of the road. I
liave heen going to and fro. I have been with the jieople as nnich as possible, and T
lia\e seen what influence the tralHc had on the people.
.'I(t0;<2. Have you noticed anything alniut that tiallic prior to the license law
loiiiiiig into operation? I noticed it for a short time.
.'l!)0.{.'}. What was the effect ? I notice<l that there was a great deal of drinking
lii'ing done.
.{DO.'U. How do you harmonize the drinking with the fact that there wius supposed to
he |ii'ohibition in the Territories? — -Becau.se I felt that the otiicers and authorities were
ill collusion with tiiose selling, in fact I am .satisfie«l from their own testimony, anil
459
:itl
i'l:;-
?•!!'
W!
Liquor Traftic — Xoifli-west TenitoiicH.
t'lniii wliiii I liii\<> st'fii iiiyMelf, that th<* .MuiiiitiMl Pulicc <liil nut In t<> kt-fp lii|iiiir mil
ill many rtisfx.
.'t<,M).'l.'i. |)uyuu Hiiy tliiit till* |Nilic*Mli(l nut try tu k«>f|) lii|u<iruut? — YfH, I r<'in«MiilH i
of iiiK' ciuif wild'*' a |H)lioeniiin tolil nitMliiit lie (li'sircil tniiii'vi-tit tin- liringin;; in ut'
lii|Uiii', but tliiit it WHS of no use to do so, foi- lie Miiiil, '■ wlicii I onct'did mt T would ^ot a
.slight i'c|)i-iiiiiiiid troiM tliosc itlMi\)> iiic mid tin- wuniin^tliui I nt'i'd not Im- so (uirticular.
.'i!K).'Ki. Mav»! you olisfi'viMJ tin- lirt'iisf law in this district ! Yes.
.■11K).'I7. Wliat do you tliiiik of it ', From what I have simmi of tin- clliTts roiinil
hen* it liiiH t-crtainly Ix-fii iiijurioUM. I Iiiinc hhmi nii-ii fail flat on tlio sidewalk and lir
tliciT for a lon^ tiiiif. I ha\<- seen thciii thrown out of litir riHtin diMJis and lie on tin
sidewalk.
.■HM);i,S. |)id you see such o<'curreiM'es Ixifore the lieeiise lass eaiiieinto force? I did
not Heo such cases, hut I su|i|iose such things hase hji|i|ien(Ml iM'fore, hut \ liase seen
men decidedly under the inlluence of lii|uor liefore.
■'{{)():{<). Did you attrihute that condition to the |irohil>itinii in the law or to the
lax administration of the law as r<>^ai'ds its enforcement ! It was the lack of enforce
iiient.
.■M)U10. Having minglwl with the |»eople and having ohserved them and conseised
with them, do you heliese the people, so far as you know them, prefer a license system
to well enforced proliihition / I have a l•i^llt to know the opinions of the people in tlii-
community. When I heard that the Uoyal CuniinissioM was comin<; here I tliou<;ht I
would take steps to inform myself in rej,'ai'<l to jiuhlic opinion, so as to Im- ahle to speak
on the <|uestioii. I went to tlio pt'opio with this ]ietition.
Jii/ Jiidyn AtcDotmld :
."59041. Did you send the petition to the l^'j^islature ?
WITNKSS.' -This is the petition.
Jt'DiiE .McDonald. I do not think anything,' of this kind can lie iMlniitted. I
think, however, the witness may speak of what he considers to In- the opinion of tin-
people.
liy Rpv. Dr. Mvh'od:
.■J!K)4"i. You went to find out the opinions of the people here as to proliihition n-rsns
license/ Yes.
.11)04.1. What did you do in order t(» Hnd that out t I went with this p(>tition.
.'J9044. I do not see any objection to having the paper in ; but I want you to tell us
what you said to the people ? What I said to the people was this : That I wislied In
hnd out from them wjiether they were in favour of national prohibition, or whether they
were in favour of the .sale of li(|Uor. What I was endeavouring to lind out wimwhetlici
the people were in favour of national prohibition as against license ; and 1 am now jui'
|)ared to .say what their opinion is. I tried to get to everylKHly in the community. 1
may .say that there are about 100 people in the place and I found that S(J were in faviiiii
of national prohibition. 1 have here the name of oie- jier.son wlio asked for continental
prohibiticm. I think that is one thing that we in this country have nothing to >lo with.
In my round I did not come across more than half a dozen |ieople who wanted liceiiMv
.19045. Then HO people expressed themselves as preferring national prohibition tn
licen.se? — Yes. I have not some of the names of those lielonging to the temjieraiur
societies, as it was imjxi.ssible foi' iiie to get around to every one.
JJi/ Jiidye MiDitmdd :
.■$904(). Are those 80 names of males? They are all the names of grown up pe<i|ili-.
male and female, l)Ut there are oidy a few women here, and there are very few of tlitii
names down.
;19047. Did you report to the police that infringements of the law hiul taken iil.nc '
— I got into difficulty with the policeman because of the fact that 1 had spoken jiublicly
and condemned the police. T did it in the presence of the piliceman, for 1 wouM imi
pass by ;i hotel that had no license, but T could see the sale of liquor taking place.
William McNab.
460
Liquor TrafTIc — North- west I'crritnrio't.
as I wiM
Ik- is lliriiiilv iiiiiii
.'I'.MtlM. I >it| you r)'|Mirt tlii* |Mili('i>iiiiiii to IiIk nlliccr ? .\<i, lifnniM(« UN fa
Cuno'l'lli'tl, I was lii'M-l \M'II ari|liaiMt<'il witll tllf I'lWtiiliis nf tlit Illitl'V.
't'.ini',), 'riicii you iliil iHii ic|))irt him lo liis ulliici' ,' Nn, lii'iaiiM' li<- i
ill tlic |il.ii't>.
.'i'.M ».■>(». ||av(> villi any iilijiM'liuii 1)1 >{ivi> tlif iiami' >>i iIh' uIHcit wliu tnlil ynu liti
WII.S iTtiNiii'*><l for iloih^ liJH liiily ,' So far as I mil i-oiu-t>riii'.| I would U- |irouil in ijoiii^
so, liiit it is lik)' lliis : I do not know wlii'tlirr it is |>ro|i)'r to do so, U'caiisi' if ii was it
tliin;; that I siioiild do, I NKniild do it. I know tln' man is of siicli a rliaraitpr lliat li*i
Would deny it, ln'caiisc lir is on<- of tlic nun on tlic foro'.
•'{'.lO'i I . Vou did not t'i'|ioi't to till' sii|ii'rior ollicrr wjial oi'i'iiiiimI, and that llio con-
staliic had Hiiiil whi'ii lif i-nforfcd tlif laws I<hi strirtiv In* was told not to lie so piirtii'U-
lar f - No.
.■{!lor»2. YcMi lit'iti'd |)r. Itrt'it's cvidi'iu'c Can yoii afcoiiiii for the fad tliiit in a
|Ni|iulatioii of aliout 1 00, SO of tlicm Ix'tn^' in fa\our of |>i'ohiliition aiTordiii); to your
slatt'int'iit, proliiliition did not ln'coiiic an i>siit' at tin- last flrii jnii, and that tin- majority
of (he iiii'IiiIn'I's n-turnrd were in favour of liccnsr .' I can tril you, I can f,'i\c a rcawin
liiat is <|uit<- clear. At the |in-.sciil time the people are doin<,' a little more thinkin;;, and
one of the ends your Coinmissioii is ^oill^ to accoinplisli is to make the peopl)> think.
.Many II iiiim (h'inks and does not leali/e what he is doin!.', hut when the ipiestioii i.s
lirou^^lit lioine to him and when he sees tint injury done to families and society, hecoiiii's
to tlie conclusion that national |>roliiliition would lie the \ery liest thin;;.
.'t!)0.'i.'(. J)r. Itrelt has told us that this quest imi was tried to lie made an issue at thu
polls, hut lliiit the jieople did not make it an issii . Can you iiccouiit for that? I can-
not, for I was not here at the time. Ihi' <lill it is like this, tiiat the people in tliis mat-
ter had not the ipieslion lii'ou;r|it fairly and clearly liifure them that is, the i'i;;ht and
the VM'oim of the thin;,'.
.■?!)0.")l. JJut Dr. Ilrett says that the matter was liriiu;{hl clearly and slion;,'ly liefore
the {ieo|)lo? — It could not h i\e lieen hroii^ht liefore tlieiii sutlicieiitly 8tron;{ly.
.'{'.lO'in. Do you tliink > on could lia\e lirou;.'lit it more stioii;;ly Ix'fore them than
.Mr. ypenci' ? — I think he is a very slioii,i; adxocale.
y/y Her. Dr. Mr Lead:
'.V.^O'U't. Is it a fact tliat tluM'epreseiitative of the tlistrict is in favour of national
ohiliition? |)oyou think that the people know that their representative is in fax'our
lit that Hiid is, therefore, in accordance with t heir feelinu's / 'I'lien
in the minds of the people in rc;:ai'd to that ipiestion
iitl
e uncertainty
Kkv. |)u. McLKiM). Concernin!; those jieople, was there any indication that they
would sifjii a document, I mean t hose pco|i|" with whom you conver.sed alxiut prohibition.
So far as [ am concerned, as a Coinniissioiier, I am jierfectly willin;,' to have the ducu-
iiicnt fileil.
JuDiiK Mi'DONWIJ). — I oliject on the ;;round that the sentiiuoiit of the people
sliould be obtained from themselves, and if they wish to have their opinion entered in
any other way they should petition Parliament.
WITNE88. — Kroiii what I know o^' the law court>, there has not U'cii a ca-so tried in
the North-we.st Territories with which liipior has not had .soinethin;; to tlo.
The Commi.'jsion adjourned, to meet at Victoria, Dritish Columbia.
461
):ii
m •.
bl Victoria.
{Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
:' /'('<
i.jHSf
i as*:
Ho\. .rOSEPIl ROYAL, Licutoiiant Oovornor of tlio Nortli wost TorritonVs, who
\v;is niiiil)le to iipjit'ar before tlie t'oiiimissioiiei's (it l{ej;iiia, li'iviii",' heeti called away on
ollieial business, sul>se(nieiitly forwarded to His Honour Judge McDonald, Acting
Chairman of the Coniniission, the following stattnnent : —
T
(jOVKRNMKNT HOISK,
JiKtiiNA, January 7th, 1893.
Honourable
Mr. Justice Hkkhert S. McDonald,
Urockvillc, Ont.
SiH, — In compliance with your request, I have the honour to forward you herewith the
following statement for tiie information of the Royal C'onnnission on the Li(|uor Tratlic.
At the time of my aj)]iointment as Lieutenant-Cio\'ernor of the Noi'th-wost Terri-
toi'ies, 1st July, 18S8, I found thi' jiopulation of the Territories j)laced, as far as the
liquor tratlic was concerned, in a very extraordinai'y position.
Acc(»rding to some, the country by the Act of 187-") iiad been vii'tiially given a
system of pi'oliibition, and if the full binetit of the law, so interpreted, was not enjoyed
by the settlei-.s, it was attributed to the perver.se action of the Lieutenant-Governor.
Others argued that Parliament ne\er had any such intention; that the object of
th(! law of 1875 was simply to allbril fui-ther protection U* the Indians of the olains
against the consequences of the introduction of intoxicants into the Teri'itories ; that
sue); a law !iad become obsolete, quoad the li(juor tr.allic, owing to the complete change ot
circumstances, ana that so long as the Act remained on the Statute liook it was the
duty of the Lieutenant-tiovernor to carry its provisions into full etl'ect, however imprac-
ticable and abhorrent the result might prove.
Of thest^ two propositions, the latter seems to be the oidy one supported by the
facts and by the actual meaning of the law. It will be my aim, thei'efore, in this paper
to show the circ nnstauces undei' which the law of 187.") was adopted, the innnense benetii
it i;onfer'red upon the Indians, the pi'otectioii it all'oi'ded the Canadian l';icitic Raihva\.
the radical changes in the .social condition of >he country whit'li I'endered tiie applicaticin
of its ])ro\ isions extremely dilhcidt, the precautions taken to pi'event illegality, ami
finally how i)ublic opinion compelled Pai'liament to vest in the Legislative Assendily of
the Territories the powei- to legislate ujion the li(|Uor (juestion, and tlie adoption by thai
body of a high license system.
Some statistical information will also be gi\en tending to show the state of crim-
inality to be found in the Territories during the " Permit system.''
1. The Law.
Now, what was the law prevailing in the Noi'th-west Territories up to last yo.ir
respecting the liipior tratlic, and what were the circumstanct.'s uniler which it was
adopted 1
As early as 1808 the Dominion ParlianuMit. pas.sed an Act to prevent, under severe
penalties, the Indians all over Canada from being supplied with intoxicants; in 187") ii
was further enacted tliat every j)crson in the North west Tcii'ilories wiis prohibited to
manufacture, import or keep in his pos.session any spirituous li(iuors. The North-wc~i
Territories Act of 1880, which was a consolidation of former Acts, reiterated the sauic
provisions in the following terms : to wit : —
(S. 75.) " No intoxicating li([U()r or intoxicant shall be manufactured, compoundcii
or made in the Territories except by s])ecial pernnssion of the (Jovernor (lentra! \'.\
Council ; nor shall any intoxicatins; lii(Uor or intoxicant be inqiorteil or bi'ought into iIm'
Territories from any Province of Canada or elsewhere, or be sold, exchanged, traded m
bartered or had in possession therein <!xcept by special permission in writing of tlir
Lieutenant-Governor."
That ih' to say, while the Privy Council retained to itself the power to permit tin'
manufacture of intoxicants in the Territories, all the powers generally vested in licensiim
bodies concerning the tratlic were centralized in the Lieute.iant-Governor'3 hands. Thi^
Hon. Joseph Royal.
462
K
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
state of cri
utliiiiil wiis left to use his own (lis •ctioii in <{iiintin<; «'xeiiipti.>n ; llu- law tliti not prc-
clude liin^ tVoni iloinj; so ; lie was not cirruinscrihod in his action. At the same time,
he I'oiild not systematically refuse to issue sucii exemptions, and thereby ij,'nore the
intention of Parliament. Had the intt>iition Ween to maki the law prohihitory, the
laiij;uaj;e of l! statute, no douht, would have heen (litlerent, arui the exemptions to lie
made l>y tiie |jieutenaiit-(!<ivei'nor wouUl ha\(' lieeii sevei'ally stated and cait-fully men-
tion^rl.
On the otlier hand, such an enactment was (lesirahle and possihh' only in a country
where tiie white man had hardly penetr,ite<l. As a matter of fact, the white ))opulation
of the Territories in IS"") was very small indeetl, and consisted chiefly of the missionaries
and employees of the missions, of some fur traders, of tiie otlicers and nu'u of the I Uni-
son Bay Company's forts, and of a limited number of settlers and othcialsof the North-
west Government. It follows from the.se considerations that by placiui,' in the hil'nds of
the first executive officer of the Territories the absolute power to dispense with certain
provisions of the Htatute, Parliament established a .system which was cpl)\i(»us!y limited
in its o|)uration by the creation of such a power, fn othei' words, wh.i it \\as an easy
task for the Lieutenant-Governor in a small coimnunity to promjitly nivesti^'ate any ap-
plication for a "permit, " it will readily be seen how well w^h impo .sible sui'h an invest-
iuation would become as s(X>n as the white population had reachetl the thousands.
About the same time, and with a view of stopping; at any cost the ravajjes caused
amonitst the Indians by the American nnii traders, as well as to assist in carryini,' out
the North-west Territories Act, the Dominion (ioxeriiment provided for tlu' cr'cation of
a ]>ermanent force of .Mounted I'olice to be stationed and do duty in the Territories.
.\nd it is only proper to say that such was the activity displayed by this force in tlie
■iii]ii)ression of the li(pior trathc, that within a few yeafs the whisky snmiritlers were
tracked everywhere, their nefarious trade was seriously impaired and a fatal l)low struck
at their criminal raiils. Th" efforts of the missionai ies to chri.>-tiaiiize aixl ci\ili/e the
Indians became less arduous and more effective, and a new anil peaceful contlitiun of
affaii-s prevailed in that \ast country.
II. Irs Hicsi i.is. III. Soci.M. Cii.vNcKs.
For seven years and more the la«' of IS7"» !i;id brout(ht about all the j^ood roidts
iliat the lef;islation had anticipated, when in I8t<l' and lSiS;(, th(> Canadian Pacific liail-
uay Company placed under coi. tract t!ie e<iiistruction of its line across the plains to the
|{ockv Mountains. Many appreiiended, I'lt'j noi witliout reason, that the cortei;e of crimes
iif all sorts, which had accompanied t'lc -ons'. auction of ti'anscontinental lines in the
I'nited Stales, W(nd<l inevitably appeal from the moment the uninhabited 'i'eiritories
were reached ; fears of interference by the Indians with the progress of the work wei'e
also entertained. Yet none of these fears and aiiprehensions were realized, (hvini; tn
the absence of sti'<in,i,' liipiors in tlie camps of the railway navvies, owintr to the discip
liiiC and strict surveillance exercised by the No'ih-west Mounted Police, the coiistrin'-
liuii was proceeded with and carried on throiiirli more than seven hundred miles of
\acant and silent plain with at least as much order and trancpiillity as [if it had been
across any of the Provinces of Eastern Canada. The flow of immijiration into the
Territories speedily followed the coni|il>'tion of the Canadian Pacitic Itailway to Calu'aiy
in ISS.S; the sett lenient of l',astern .\ssiniboia was coiniiii'iiced and pushed foi'ward
\ i^oi'ously, while small set tlements were bciriy; ra)iiilly formed alonutlie main line of
liie great railway and on the North S;,skatcliewan.
The dominion Census for ISSO ,sl gives a total population for the North-west
Ti'rritories, comprising the area known as Uupert's Land, of .")(!,+ ((), divided as follows ; —
Indians 4it,f7-J
Whites, including half-breeds (),'.)7l
Very little reliance, however, can be |ilaceil upon these figures, .as they are greatly
"•xagtiei'ated, and in most cases a mei-e guess work of the census enumerator. It is
iiiil safe, therefore, to take them as a term of compai'ison.
N evert heh'ss, an idea may be formed of the rapidity with which immigration followed
ihe Canadian Pacific Paihvav, bv tiie figures mentionetl in the Uominion Census of
463
Liquor Traffic — Xortli-west Territories.
ItSH") ,111(1 IS'.IO. Tlie pitpulatiuii eiuimi'iated ill tlie iH'iivisioiial districts of Assiuiljoia,
Saskatchewan and Alberta, exclusive of the Peace Hiver and the Mackenzie Territoi'v,
is estimated t'i)i' liSM.") at :
Whites 2S, 1 Dli
Indians :.'U,170
Total 4S,:{(1l' -
Tlie Doniinitin Census, 18!tO '.(1, <j;i\es th(^ following;; tigures t'oi- the same pruvisidnal
districts :
Whites ."i.'i.Oitj
Indians 1 4,.")0S
And for the Northern Unorganized Territory .■J:],lt)8
Total 9!),7l'l'
Thei'efore, in the short space of ti\e yi'ars, the white population had more than
doubled, and this calculation would yet be very matei'ially increased if the eastern limits
of Assiniboia had not been very largely curtailed, in 18SI, by the extension of the Pro
vince of Manitoba some seventy odd miles to the west.
As a natural conset|uence of the settlement of the Territories and of a deepl\
altered condition of society, the necessiy of a corresponding change in the laws that
governed the country became apparent, and none so much as the liipior enactment
."p])licable to the white settler.
[V. DlKFK'UI.TIKS FliOM ClIAVClC OF (JlKfl'M.STAXCKS. V. PliKCA ITIONS At)OI>TKI).
Loud and continuous were \\w complaints of a large and most desirable class ut
innnigrants after they discovered that their supply of wine or beer dejx'nded altogetiier
upon the good-will of a (ioverinnent otHinal. Public opinion assei'ted itself against thi~
law in various way.s, and a daily expei'ience showed the extreme ditliculty of carrying ii
out. No wonder, therefore, that the granting of " permits " or exemption gradually
assumecl the character of a regular system under my predecessors in otHce.
What had l)een intended as an exception by Parliament soon overshadowed the
law itself and became the rule. It was, of cour.se, to be expected that I'arlianient would
amend the law, and tiiat new provisions would be enacted whereby eit.ier total proliibi
tion or some licensing organization would sup(,'rsefle the indi\idual :',ction of the Lieu-
tenant-(iovei'nor ; this indeed would have been done, liad it nat been, as it was reiioiicd
publicly, for the agitation of tiie prohibitionists all over the l>ominion. Meetings werr
held, sti'ong language prefai-ing stronger resolutions, was used : a certain class of
I>reachers raved and denounced : false statistics were invented by ignorance and accepted
storm raised that no attempt was made to
as true l)V tlii' majority : an
1 such
th
Par
lament m t lie matter.
It
d t
seemed to Have oeeii an axiom with man
IV tl
lat III!
H-l
Tei'ritories were a til country upon v\ iiicli to try an (vxperiinent, the ap|)lication of fai
ful theories of social economy. I5e that as it may, the fait \y, that at i{egina, in the
month of July, 1 88S, the " Permit system " was in full blast. Jlie law in ri'spect of
liquor prohiliition liad degenerated into the most unsatisfactory and crude licciisini;
organization possible, unfit for a free people, and painfully retrograiling as compaicil
wi
th tl
H' methods which statesmen are now (lev ising foi' the regulation of th
'I'he crucial problem of tiie new system seemed to be, how best t(
IS social ev II
'ainst till'
d ag
aliuse made of its working. Uules had been already a(lopt(>d : new ones were added, ol
which ex])erience had taught the necessity, and as gr(>.'it strictness as possible was exer
cised in their enfori'i'iiienl. The following is a sumniarv of the r(igulations observed in
the granting of lii|uor permits :
1st. No application for permit to iiii|)ort intuxicants "for domestic use" v,;i-
allowed, unless recommended either by a Magistrate, a member of Parliament, a Meiiiljii
of the Legislature, or a well known citizen of standing and respectability.
Ho.N. .losKPii Royal,
464
^^<iIliiJ<)ia,
reiritoiv,
•DVisional
nore tliiin
;ern limits
•t' the Pin
■ ii (lefply
laws tliiU
I'niictmeiii
DUI'TKI).
)le class cit
altojfetlitT
liiist tlii-
LMiryinu
rradualiy
(liiwt'd till'
(('lit wiiuM
il |ii'iiliilii
the Lieu
IS rcjicirlfil
tiiijis well'
class of
(1 accept ci I
■i iiiailc t'l
y thai I lie
n of t'aiici
iia, ill the
ri'sjicct lit
lici'iisiiii;
ccpinjiarcd
social evil.
i^aiiist the
idde.l. ot
e was exer-
hservcd ill
use v.ii-
a Meiiilier
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. Ib94
2n(l. Nf) applicatiuii was j,'raiito;l to any one coiivictftl of haviii;^ once abused the
privilege of a permit.
3rd. Every inoniiii'^ large hatche.s of applications, either unrecoiniueiided or in the
least doubtful, were mailed to the variou.s Police Otticers in eonniiand of the different
Posts in the Territories, with a re(|uest Uj rep*»rt privately what was known f)f the
<;haracter, antecedents, and {)resent p<jsitioii of the applicants residing in theii- neigh-
bourhood.
As may be well imagined, these jx-rmits, liowever carefully granted, not uiifre<iuently
fell into the hands of unworthy persons and were the source of much di.sorder and
scandal. With what a fertile theme did not the.se abuses supply the writers and preachers
in thundering forth against the Lieutenant-(jovernor. whom they accused of "debauch-
ing the country " 1
\n the absence of any action by Parliament to amend the law, numbers of gooil
citizens discu.s.sed the propriety of allowing public houses to dispense beer to the traveller
and visiting delegates. It was suggested that such a measure, l)esides having the result
of inducing the opening of good hotels, would also Ik- the means of supplying the people
with a cheap and healthy beverage, and of keeping them away from stronger stimulants.
.\fter mature deliberation, I accepted the idea, which was immediately carried into effect
under a complete code of regulations.
The licensing system developed uiidei- my predecessoi-s, was to this further extent
c-om|)leted by me, pending the decision of the legislative authorities at Ottawa. The
regulations adopted referred to the pei"sonal character i>f the applicant, to the acconnno-
dation of the hotel, to the days and hours of closing, <Scc. ; and the North-wot Mounted
Police were charged with the duty of keeping constant watch over the.se hou.ses. As
no license l)ut a permit only was issued, and such |X'rniit had to be renewed frecjuently,
any disorder or breach of the regulations was at once visited upon the applicant by
;i refusal to grant further priviUges. The result of this new measure was alluded to by
the Auditor of the Ciovernnient of the North-west Territories in his report for the year
I8)SS, wherein he stated there was a marked decreiuse in the demand for liipior j)ermits
since the issue of sale permits for beer, and at the .same time an increase in the revenue.
Tn 1H8.'?, Lieutenant-Ciovernor l)ewdney imjR)sed for the first time a fee of fifty
cents per gallon, to be paid by the applicants for li<|Uor |>ermits, beer being free as well
as wine imported for .sacramental purposes. No change was made by me in that respect.
.V fee of ten cents per gallon upon lieer im|>orted for sale was imposed upon all success-
ful applicants ; antl in that manner a small income wius created for the Territories. 1
iie(?d not say that a statement of the receipts derived from that source was at the begin-
ning of each session of the Assend<ly laid on the table, after Ijeing audited and published
with the Public .Vccounts of the Territories.
In some iiuarters it was attempted to be made out that the beer imported and sold
under the aliove mentioni'd regulations was a wretche<l article. All that can be said is,
that f <;ould not very well lay down any rule in that respect, and that the(|uu!ity of the
l)eer, a))art from the limitation of its strength of four per cent alcohol, was a iiiattei'
resting puriily and solely iK'tween the imi>orter and consumer.
The |)ublic was nf)t slow in showing itself in favour of the new policy : ami an
attempt having been made in the Territorial Assembly to elicit a hostile declaration, the
motion was lost, only the mover and seconder voting in its favour.
\1. Pinr.ic Oi'iNioN AssKKTs Itski.f.
P>ut it belonged to the general election of the fall of If^Kl to demonstrate in an uii-
i'i|Uivoeal manner what were the feelings of the electorate concerning tlu.' settlement of
the ([ue.stion. The Parliament of Canada having in the session of the same year vested
ill the [.legislature the jxiwer to pass Oi'dinances in resjx'ct of the liijuor trallic, the (|iies-
lion was at once put at issue before the electors. The result wa.s, that oidy a small
i^roup of prohibitionists were returned, and the Ij«'gislative A,s.send)ly, after canjful de-
liberation, adopted a high license and local o|ition ordinance, which came into ojieration
on the 1st .May, 1H9L', and is to-day the law of the land.
4fi5
Liquor Traffic — North-west Territories.
VII.— Statistics.
As tlie above considerations would not be found complete without attording souic
nu-ans of comparison, I have compiled from otlicial documentn, statistics concerning tliu
number of " permits " issued in each year, as well as concerning the criminality of the
Territories during as nearly as possible a corresponding period.
STATEMENT "A."
Yeivr.
Total Litjiior
and Beer Permits
issued.
Total (iallons
of .Spirits.
Tot«l Beer.
1883
1,874
2,457
l,7<)l
3,559
3,()«3
4,233
5,4-24
5,7rv4
5,970
4,451
5,404
3,«82
6,604
6,979
8,561
11,660
1-2,417
14,;U1
1,468
1 884
3,565
1885
188H
5,3-22
1-2,672
12,86;')
1 887
rtl888
•25,767/)
1889
ll'2,448fc
1890
97,116/-
86,9-2(i/i
1891
a. Lager beer was allowed to be imported for sale in August of this year.
b. Note by the Commission: — Tiiese figures represent only the 4 p.c. beer.
By comparing the figures aljove given for 1886 with those of 1891, it will be sei-ii
that while the population more than iloubled during that time there is a marked decrease
in the issue of permits, as well as a slight proportional decrease in the number of gallons
of spirits imported.
I quote now from the Statistical Year Book of Canada, published by authority, tlif
following summary of the number of indictable offences tried in the Territories from
1885, the year of the rebellion, to 1890 : —
1885 118
1886 53
1887 15
1888 49
1889 57
1890 92
u
1^ ^
From the criminal statistics compiled from the Magistrates' returns received in
Lieutenant-Governor's office at Rogina, from 1886 to 1892, the subjoined figures
given ; —
1886. 1887. 1888. 1889. 1890. 1891. •189-2.
Drunk 74 67 67 116 43 .58 103
Assault 43 34 46 67 .35 54 46
Liquor law, violation of 105 67 82 7S 46 40 21
Stealing 25 40 39 54 ,37 10 8
(ianibling 10 10 5 -24 2 (»
Vagrancy 11 11 5 17 22 10 15
Prairie tires, poisons and game
Ordinances 5 6 14 33 16 18 -.'0
Masters and servants ordin-
ances 31 16 -28 -27 12 13 8
Killing and wounding animals. 4 3 9 2 2
Other offences '24 39 -22 45 50 81 .57
Totals 332 '293 317 463 -263 -286 -278
th.'
arc
*The first three quarters only.
Hon. Joseph Royal.
466
67 Victoria. Sessional Papers (No. 21.) a. 1894
Ti. proportion to the estimated population it may be said tliat the North-west Ter
ntones, as regards summary convictions, offer the lowest standard of crin.inalitv not
only m Camula, l,ut elsewhere, for nearly every year ahove -iven '""•"ft"t>, not
tl,» mI 'f ' B '°*'*' """^/'' *"* ''O'^^'*'*'' received from tlfe North-west Territories at
the Manitoba Penitentiary for a period of six years :-
Ij^u- Males. Keiiiales
1888!;.;;!;.' '' '*
1889 , ' "
I89() 'J «»
i«9i ;;;;;;;;■;;;; f' »
'«»2 ;;:;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; I3 1
It will he noticed that the above statement does not mention any female convict
l^ing sent from the Territories to the Manitoba Penitentiary, prior to Uie year im
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Ydur very obedient servant,
J. ROYAL,
Lieutenant-Governor of the iVorth-went Territories.
!-
21_30p*
m
1' '
r"
[4 i
Sv
m:
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
MINUTES OF i:VII)KX(JE.
BRITISH COLUMBIA.
VICTORIA, November 17, lSf)i>.
Till' Royal Commission on t'lc Liijuor TniHie met here this diiy.
PrexHtit :
■IviHiK McDoNALJj. Rev. Dk. McLkok.
ROBERT BEAVEN, of Vii-tonu, on lu'lng (kily sworn, deposed us follows : —
Jii/ Judge McDonald :
39057. You are Mayor of the City of N'ictoria, I lit'lieve ? — Yes.
39058. And a Member of the Provincial Leyislature for this city ? — Yes.
39059. What is youi' occupation?—! am out of business.
390t)0. How long have you resided in British Columbia or V'^ancouver Island ? — In
liiitish Columbia for a number of years ; T do not recollect the number, probably 30 years.
390<)1. During that time have you resided alttjgetliei- in V^ictoria / — No; 1 have
icsided here permanently since 1 886.
3900:2. During the time of your residence in this province lias there always been in
force a license law in I'egard to the liquor traffic? — T think .so.
39063. Has thei-e ever been a prohibitory law in force in this province? — Not that
I am aware of.
3906-b Never within your recollection. Was there ever untrammelled sale 'I — Not
to my knowledge. The ijuestion of dealing with the liijuor traffic was not lirought to
my attention very nuich until I became a member of the Legislature.
39005. During the time of you'- residence in British Columbia, have ynu found
any change to have taken place in regard to the social habits of the people respecting
the use of into.vicating liquors as beverages'? Is there more or less used now than
formerly ? — T certainly do not know.
39066. Have you noticed that as the population has increased, the social habits of the
people have changed, so that there is less drinking than formerly? — I cannot say that I
\jave noticed any change; at all events, I have not noticed any change of matiu'ial impor-
tence. The Customs-house would give tliat class of information I think.
39067. The Customs I'eturns would show, of course, the quantity brought in ; but
I am incjuiring as to the habits of the people, whether more intoxicating liiiuors an;
used than formerly ? — I cannot express an opinion on «.hat subject.
39068. How long have you been Mayor of the city ? — Since hist January.
39069. How long luive you been a member of the Legislature? — I think about 21
year.s, ever since Confederation.
39070. Taking the population as a whole, as you have known the people, are they
sober and law-abiding ? — I should certainly Seav so.
39071. Are tlie business interests of the city in a prosperous condition? — I
tliink so.
469
Liquor Tiattic — British Columbia.
39072. A IP you able to say, fioin your knowledge, wliether the business interests
of the city have l)een, or are k) any extent affected by the liijuor traffic in one way or
the other? — 1 think some one more actively engaged in business would be better able to
answer tliat ((uestion than I am.
3907.'V Are you accjuainted at all practically with the working of the licen.se law ?
—Yes.
39074. How does it work ? — I sit as a member of the licensing Court.
3907*). For the purjKwe of granting licenses? — Ye.s.
3907G. Then you sit in the Court as Mayor of the city ? — Of course my expeiiente
is as Mayor ot the city, although I have been Mayor only since January last.
39077. Have any licenses been granted? — If ray memory serves mti rightly, two
or three.
39078. Have you an Inspector of licenses for the city ? — No.
.39079. Who looks after hou.ses that are licensed? — The police.
39080. Has the city an officer who issues licenses and receives fees? -Xo; the
^license Commissioner attends to that matter.
39081. Then he is the executive officer regarding licen.ses and the payment of fees?
— Yes.
39082. Of course he would l)e able to give statistics in regard to the number of
licenses? — I can tell you that.
39083. How many are there? — I desire to explain to the Commission that there arc
different classes of li(juor licenses in the city. We have, ffrst, what are known as the old
liquor licenses, which were introduced a great many years ago. The holder comes to the
collector once every six months and pays the license fee. lie does not come befoie the
Licensing Board at all, uidess there is some complaint made against the house by the
jHjlice or somebody else. That .system was changed a short time ago.
39084. What fee do those people pay ?— Each pays $100 every six months, or $200
a year. Those are called retail liquor licenses. The system was changed last year, and
all licenses issued after April 30, 1891, are issued differently.
39085. What is the present system? — The licen„es are only granted for six months :
and in order to obtain a renewal, the holder must come before the Licensing Board, and
must have the license granted to him, or refused, as the Board think fit.
3908(5. What is the fee he pays ? — The same as the other retailers. The business
is the same, the only difference being that the holder has to come before the Boarfl. The
holder has to advertise for 30 days before the sitting of the Board that he intends to
apply for renewal of license during the ensuing six months.
39087. On what guarantee is he allowed to sell? — He is allowed to sell by the police
on the retail liquor license. We have those two classes of retail liquor licenses. Then
we have ;, restaurant license and bottle license and wholesale license. The restaurant
license allows selling, as provided for in the Statute :
" Any person who keeps a
otlierwise. "
restaurant anil supplies beer and porter and wine witli meals and not
i^^
That is a restaurant license.
.39088. What is the fee for a restaurant license ? — $25 every six months or ■S50 a
year.
39089. Do they have to secure a renewal the .same as the retailers? — Yes, if the
licen.se had been issued after the date I mentioned. There are two restaurants holding
retail licenses.
39090. What is a bottle license ? — It is defined in the Statute in this way :
" Kvery person holding a retail license issued under section I or 5 or 6 of this section, who sells,
liarters or traffic, by retailing unfcrniented, spirituous or otiier li<|uors in a shop, store or phioe,
other than in a saloon, ale or beer iiouse or other houses of public entertaiment, in quantities of
not less than a reputed pint lx)tlle, at any one time to any one person, and at the time of sale wholly
removes and takes away tlie licjuor in quantities of not less than one reputed pint bottle, foreai h
itouse or i)lace wliere such vending is carried on, tlie license fee for such shall not exceed .'i?7"> for
every six months."
The fee is 875 the highest rate the Legislature authorized.
Robert Beaven.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papors (No. 21.)
A. 1894
M9091. W'liat is II wliolesale license? — It is defined in this way:
" Any |)ci'»<iu not liiiving a rvtiiil liueiiMU iih iiliovu ami vuiuling xpirituoiix aii<l fvriiiuiitcil lii|Uiii.-4
liy wholenale, that in to any in i|uantiticM ot not Il'sh tlian two gallons foi' uacli Iiouho nr iilan-. slmll
pay a license not excueiling iS.V( for every six inontlix."
.'?'50 is tht' rate tlie city les-ies.
.'i90!(l.'. On the retail and restaurant licenses, under which licjUdr may he suld l)v
the fjlass, may the dealers sell in lar;;e (]uantitics also^' — Xo, not wholesale.
.'590!)3. The licensee is confined to salehy the<j;la.ss? — Yes. I suppose a restauiaiit
lould s«'ll by the bottle, and put it on the table.
.'59094. Are the hotel fees the same 1 — This is what the Statute says :
" .Any per.son vending wines, spirits, beer or other feriiienteil or iiitoxieating li(|\iors liy retiiil in
any l)uil(ling in nse as an hotel ami oontaining not less than 'M) rooms, actually furnished anil used
for hotel purposes, and for each house or' place where such vending is carried on, not less than sHHI
and not more than .><'2(H> for every six months."
■f9095. .''islOO is the fee charfjed, we understand ? —Yes.
.'5909G. Would you class the hotel licen.se as different from the retail license .' — Not
particularly, they nr<^ the .same.
39097. Will you kindly f»ive tl.e Coimnission the number of licenses'/ — Retail bar.
licenses : hotels 31, .saloons 47, restaurants 5, retail liiiuor licenses l', making a t(jtal of
S"), payinj,' 8100 every six months. Bottle licenses and groceries combined, 3, payiiiy
•■*75 each month. Restaurants, selling beer, porter and wine with meals, 3, each payini;
825 every six months. Wholesale lii[Uor licenses, 21, paying !?-")0(Nich every six months.
Total, 107.
3909S. What is the total income l — I can give you a return of it.
39099. Is that a return for 1891 ?— No, it is a return for 1S92.
39100. Are you idjle to speak with regard to 1891 ? I have a return here for 1^91,
which was handed to me, and the figures differ slightly from your return? .\ re they
more or less.
39101. They include six l)reweries.' — They come uiuler the Dominion License Act.
39102. There is no local license exacted, I suppose. Do you know whether there
are .six breweries here ? — No.
•■>9103. Are there any breweries? — Yes.
39104. Any distilleries ?— No, T think not.
39105. The figures for the return of 1891 are as follows : 29 iiotcls, at S'-'OO, .85.SO0
17 saloons at *-200, 89,400 : two restaurants tit 8200, 8400 ; 8 wholesale at 8100, 8800;
14 retail at 8100, 81,400 ; 4 restaurants at 850,8200: Total 818,000. Six brewories
payment not given.
3910t). There is a material difference Ijetween the figures, I observe? — I fancy they
are correct.
39107. I notice from this return thiit the income for the city from this source is put
ilown as 81i^.000? — That amount is very likely to be correct.
39108. There has not been a very large difference in the current year? —No. It is
very difficult to obtain a license in Victoria just now.
.39109. Are there retjuisite preliminaries to be complied with before a license is
obtained? -Until the last session of the Legislature the principle of local option was in
vogue in this city. For instance, if you wanted to obtain a license for a building
■situated as this is, on a corner, the applicant would have to obtain ii certain number
of property holders living in the block and three adjoining blocks before he could get
.1 license granted to him. That system continued in operation until the last .session of
the Legislature when a new clause was inserted in the by-law. This year there \\ ere
no licenses issued. I will read the clause to you.
"Notwithstanding anything contained in the Act, any ap|(licanl for a licen.se to sell wine, spirits.
Ipcer or other fermented or intoxicating liipior in an hotel, containing not less than .'{() rooms, used or
t-) he used for hotel pur))oseH, shall not l)e required to ohtain a reipusition or petition signed liy
honsehohlera, for the granting of such license, hut application for siu'h license shall he nuide direct to
the Board of Licensing Commissioners not les.s than IM) days liefore the sitting of said Boaril, thr.iugh
the Clerk of the said Hoard ; notice of .such application shall he puUlished in some newspaper circu-
lating n the municipality and the said application to lie mailc and posted up in a conspicuous place
471
k
Liquor Traffic — liritish Columbia.
ii|i<iii the oiitslilc of tlif pi'oiiiiscM wmglit to Ins liioiiMi'd, in nuoIi a iiiiuiiici- ii.s to lie readily |ieircivo(l liy
tlif |)iil)lic, for it .-<|>iiie of at ifawt ■'<(• ilays before the nittiiig of huIiI Hoard, and the Hoard of LieeiiMini;
ColDiiMssioiiers xhall have power to grant Hiieh license for the term of one year or to renew tlie same
ii|ion the expiiation thereof, if, in the opinion of a majority of tlie ISoard tiie making HUeh grant
oi renewal i» in the pnhlie intereHt.
'■ In the event of the premiHen named in such lieenHO being destroyed byflre, torn down, removed
or closed for tlie piir|M)se of rebuilding or improvement, it shall be lawful for the Hoard of Meensiiig
Conimissioners to grant to the hohler of sueh license, permission to sell liquor and the authority ot
tlir license temporal ily, in any other preudses in the immediate vicinity thereof during such
rebuilding etc,. I5nt after the rebuilding or improvement of the formerly licensed premises has been
com|)leted, pidvided the owner desires to obtain a license for the same, the license shall be furnisheil
in the name of the owner (if suitable person) or of any suitable person satisfactory to the owner, sucli
suitability to be establisheil to the satisfaction of the License Hoard : but in ci'Sij the owner shall not
rec|uire to continue the license for the originally licensed premises, then the Hoard may Jiermtt the
licensee to transfei- the license toany preiiusea to be approved of l)y the Hoaril."
Tliere is a vast ilitt'tM-eufe between that clause and the clause in the Statute. This
pi'()\ ided tlmt no pi'titioti shall be necessaiy befofe grantinj^ a hotel license, and it
iuitli(>fi/.e> tiic iiiantiii;; of sucli a license foi- 1 2 months and allows the Coiinnissioner^
to rt'iie.v it. It was undoubtedly a very decided ciiange.
•lOllO. Have you any provision in your law prohibiting .sale to minors '? — Ye.^,
that is a provisifni of the law.
.■>9111. rnder tlie statute law of this province, sale may not be made to minors? —
i'i
19 !
19 <'
If
.■)91 r.'. Is sale jn-ohibited on Sunday ? — Yes.
.■{911."). And are there any prohibited hours? Yes.
•■|9114. Have you any law preventing the sale of other articles with intoxicating
Ixncrages. that is to say separating the sale of groceries from the sale of liquors ; or may
a man wiio sells groceries have a license to sell intoxicating liquors ? — No ; I think lie
cuuld not, at least without violating the law.
;59115. Then it would be contrary to law? — I think so. Of course I shall be gla<l
to give the Commission a copy of the Statute.
;i911<). Is there any provision in the law for inspection of liquor sold in those
places in orrlei- to see that it is pure? — There is no provincial law that I am aware ot
covering that matter. Of course it comes under the Dominion Act.
.S9117. Have you reason to believe there is illicit .sale in this city ? -No, I have
not.
;i91 is. \o statement or report has been given to you that would give j'ou reason
to suppose that such illicit sale takes place here? — I was told during the last session of
the Legislature that the effect of the Sunday closing Act was that it induced Chinese
and others to take liquor outside of the city limits and sell on Sunday. T drew the
attention of the Attorney (Jeneral to the matter, and he tried to prevent it.
-■{9119. Are there any municipal regulations as to the sale of liquor in billiard and
jiool rooms ? — They come under the regulations respecting retail licenses.
.'59120. Is there a license for a billiard table ? — Yes.
•■V.)121. JJo the proprietors of such rooms have license to sell lifiuor? — Yes.
."59122. In evidence taken before the Commission in Montreal, a very strong argii
ment was made that sale of liquor should not be permitted in places licensed as billiard
and pool rooms. Have you any opinion on the subject ? — It is a matter on which I hnvf
not formed an opinion.
.'591215. From your ob.servation, if either the hotel bar or the saloon bar had to be
dispensed with, which do 3'ou think it would be better to abolish ? — That opens up a
very large (juestion. An}' one who wishes to drink will do so, and the hotel bar pro
viden greater facilities for doing so than the saloon.
.■i9l24. Have you any opinion on the matter? — I cannot say that I have formed an
opinion on the subject. Perhaps you will explain the question to me a little more fully,
.'19 1 2-"). It really amounts to this: suppose there was a prohibitory law enacted,
doing away with either the hotel l)ar or the saloon, which would it be preferable in the
interests of the community to dispense with I — ^It is just as I have said ; if persons are
disposed to obtain liquor they are able to obtain as much as they like in an hotel or in
a saloon for that matter. I do not know which it would be preferable to dispense with.
ROBKHT BkAVKN.
^472
67 Victoria,
Sessional Papers fNo. 21.)
A. 1894
.'191'J(). Are you. in N'ictnriii, Inmblfd with a class ut' |if(i|>lc wlin arc coiistiintlv
Itct'orp tlie jiolii'f courts and arc sentenced to slioi't terms and at'leiwards a]i|)ear apiiii,
and SI) keep up tlu; promenade the yeai' i-ounil .' I am afraid we liavesome sucli persons,
l)Ut nodoultt tlie Police Maijistrate will he alilc to give all the int'orniation you wish on
that subject.
.'J!)Il'7. Ft" y<iu have considered the nuitter, will you tell the C'oininission whetlier,
ill your opinion, it would be better, in dcalinj; with such people to continue the present
system ot" brini^ing them before the courts and sentenciiij; thcni for short terms, or
would it be better to confine suuli persons for lenjithy terms in an institution with a view-
to their reformation .' -If there ari' liny means by which they can be refoi'med, it would lie
a kind act to do to them.
.SIMl'S. It has been suf,'j,'e.steil that it is desirable to treat them the same way as
weak-minded people an; treated and to provide asylums specially adupteil for their
accommodation and treatment? — We have not very many of that class, but there is a
siiuiil nuiid)er.
;{i)ll"J. Are lij|ht wines and ales much used in British Colunibia ? I fancy so.
."ilU.'JO, Taking your community and your people, do you think the use of light
wines and ales should be encourag(;d instead of the use of lieaviei' li(|Uoi's? — 1 could not
express an opinion on that subject.
;i!)1.31. Are you abl<^ to .say whether the tastes of the people I'lin more t(j flrinking
lii|Uors or light wines and ales? — No. Those matters have not come generally und<'r
my notice.
iJOl.'il'. You have here a state of things which does not exist in any other part of
the Dominion, and that is a large Chinese population? — -Yes.
.S'Ji;?:?. Taking them as a class, are they sober people? -They have their own
particular liipiors which they import ; but I could not say as to whether they are sober
or not.
MDl.Sb I am asking you as a citizen ? — J think their particular weaknesses ar»f
opium and gamliling.
;?!>l.'5r). Then you are not troubled with tJiem so far as the use of intoxicating
liijuor is concerned? -T do not think you ever set- a drunken Chinaman on the streets,
liut of course the police records will show the facts.
.■iyi;?0. Have you had any experience whatever in tlie
law ?^None whatever.
■'iOl;!?. Knowing this ju-ovincc and the chai'acter of the
a prohibitoiy law, a law to proiiil)it the manufacture,
intoxicating li(|uors for beverage purposes, could b(> practically carried out, so as to
.'•uppress the use of those liijuors? I think it would be a \ery ditlicult law to carry out.
."iDl.'JiS. In case of the enactment of such a law, do you deem it right that bri'wers
and distillers should be compensated for their loss of plant and machinery ? — You have
asked a question which a man should considei- very carefully before expres;-;ing an
opinion. 1 confe.ss that I have not considered the tjuestion sutliciently to be able to
answer it.
MDl.'i'J. Are there any suggestions you could make in regard to the license law as it
exists at the present time .' -l)o you mean as it exists in the niunici[iality ?
39140. I mean amendments that would nifike it more workable and jilace it in a
lii'tter position ? — Our Provincial Legislature can amend the law as it, wishes.
39141. That is (|uite true. — 1 certainly think we would impro\e tli.it law if that
Section which I read was obliterated and the old one substituted. The License Itoard,
I may remark, is a body in regard to which you have not made any imiuiries.
;5914'_'. We should be very glad to hear any suggestions that you could offer? — The
License Jioard consists of the Police Magistrate of the city, the Mayor, «.)■ dj/ifio. and an
alderman appointed by the Municipal Council. I do not know whether there is a
different jirovision in the other provinces or not.
•■?9I43. Taking your license law as a whole and as it exists at the present time, do
you find it work satisfactorily ? — With one exception I think it works well. The law
as regard to hotels should be placed as it was formerly.
the Working of a prohibitory
population, do you think
im])ortatioii and sale of
473
'■ 1 -I,
Wi.>i
!h;
|5.
Hi .
Liiiuor Traffic — British Colunibia.
% A'- r. />/•. Mchod :
'.\0\-H. Is till' liftMiKi! law iiH it cxiHts tii-diiy a n'i'««nt edactiiicnt ? -Yes, it has mily
1m'«'ii in t'uiTc (liiriiiu tin' last t'fw yt-ai-s. T liiid a great di-ai to do with that oiiactiiH'iit.
.'{'.M I'l. Ill what rcs|M'rt docs tJif |irt'Sfiit liceiisi' law diU'ci' t'luiii the pn <liiii,'
iiiH'? Ill this: l''()niit'rly a |it'rst>ii wishing to ;,'*'! a licciiHc I'uiild .siiii|ily gn lict'iirc iht-
Hnard nf liiccnsc Curninissiiincrs, and tlit'v would grant a lici-nsf, if thry wished todo sn.
Tlu; wrong in that system was, that it' you wanti'd to ohtaiii a lieeiiseyou simply had ti>
say so, and the Magistrates wuiilil grant it, and you paid the fee and obtained tlie
license.
.'I'.Mlli. ^'ou had charge of the legislation, I lielie\-e .' f intnxluced the Act uiid
carried it through the Legislature.
.'{i)147. t^aii you state what suggested the change .' — Wiiat suggested it to my mind
was the fact that tlnM'o were licenses granted in residential jiortinns of the city, where
the people were very much opposed to them. I thought it only right that the people
living there should ha\e some say in the matter.
.'?'.tl IH. Was the change proposed with the understanding that the old sysleiii
worked harmfully? — It worked \-ery well after a time, liut like very many other things,
as circumstances changed, it hecaiiie necessary to change the system. It liccame so tu
my mind, and the majority of tlu^ Legislature agreed with me. Mr. Hohson, who was a
.Member of the llou.se at that time, aided me in hringing aUait the cliangi', althiiii;.'li
we were on ditl'erent sides in the Legislature.
.'i!*l I'.t. I>o you know whether |)ul)lic opinion had changed in this resjx^ct, that
whi!rea.s public opinion was quite satislied with the old system, it was then thcaigiit
that restrictions should he placed on the tra(le?-"l think the feeling was that there were
enough licenses issut;d in N'ictoria, and that they sluiuld not he so easily obtained as
they were before.
•'I!)1">0. Has the license .system limited the number of places for sale of drink in
Victoria and throughout the Province,' I think so.
30151. Do the petitions necessary to obtain a license and also other jii'titions
connected with the license' law, apply e(|ually t<i the country places and tothe <'ity ! We
have a little difl'erent system in the country municipalities. It is not .so ditJicult lu
obtain a license in the country places as it is in the city. Of course Vancouver has a
license law of its own ; New SVestininster also has a diH'erent one. Victoria and Nanainio
were under this law : New Westminster was under u different law and VancoUM'i
under still another.
.■{itirn'. Do you know whether there are any rural districts in which no licenses are
granted'?- That I could not say.
.■{Dl").'}. Do I understand that some of the licenses are permanent, that they do imt
need renewal, and the holder is simply re(|uired to pay the fee ?- -'i~5;at is correct. Those
were issued under the old .system. So long as there are no r-omjilaints made against the
house oi' the holder of the license, the holder simply goes up ?.o the Treasurer's otVui'
every si.x ■ lonths and pays his fee.
.■{9154. Does the license belong to the house or the individual? — The license wa^
granted to the individual for the premises. There was a provision put into the Statute
last year to the effect that if the licensed house was torn down or was being repaired
the holder of the license could obtain a temjiorarv permission from the Mayor ami
Licensing Board to carry on the business .somewhere in the vicinity, or if a building was
put up, it had to be returned to the particular locality : that is if the owner of the
building require'.l it. Tt gave the owner a sort of interest in the busine.ss, which he had
not before.
39155. As a matter of fact, did the license expire if the person owning it died .'
No : the license is dealt with by the executf)rs.
."19156. Are there many such licenses? — They form the greater part of the licenses.
Only since 1S91 has the system been changed.
•39157. Has there been any complaints against such licensed premises, which have
resulted in the law being carried out? — I think so. I think there was a case about a
year ago, the Standard Theatre, and the law was exercised.
ROBKHT jJkaven.
.<; 1
t
r ■»
p
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'MMSH. SptMikiii^ lit' Mal(! tn iiiinui'H ; who iirc minors undfr Mrilisli ('uluinliiii law ? — ■
I I'liii toll yon liy MciMlin^' tor a lopy ot' the HtatuteH, l)ut I ifftlly for>{<'l tliK i-xact «>{•■.
.'ilUr*'.). Ilavoyou iiolicfd wlwllici' tin- licciiscos yciit'nilly ohscrM- tin- imivixions
i(t' tho license lawf I do not exactly understanii you.
.'J'.MCiO. Has it come til yoiii' attention wlietlier men lioldin^' iieenscs %iii|:ite the
|ii'ovisions of tlu> law ; do tlicy sell after eei'tuin hours, and on tlie .Sabbath.' The li'w
ays they shall not sol' (jn Huntlay.
.'tiMdl. l)o they oi lerve that provision of the law ? Sti far as my knowledtjo mios.
I hey observe it.
.'t'.llti'.'. Have \ iolalors of tli(^ law lieen jiro.seciitod .'- - Yes. (»f course that law has
iinlj" been in forie for a short time ; I do not think over a year. It is .said by some that
that law jjivos restaurants and hotelH an advantajfo over those holding' saliKin licen.se^.
.■|'Jir)."{. lla\o you noticed whether the restriction in the number of places has
lessened the amount of driidvini; in tlii' connnunity ! — 1 cannot say.
.'V.tMit. Have you noticed whether the li(|Uor tratlic and the liipior haltil atlcct ihi?
social life of the commuinty, bonelicially or otlierwi.se f I am thrown \ery little in the
wav of such matters, so that I am liardiv alile to e.vpress an opinion on asubject of that
kiiid.
.■t!tl()."i. J lave \ou formed an opinion as to wln'ther a ;;eneral prohibitory law. that
is a law to prevent the manufacture, importation and sale of iMtoxi<-atini; liipiois fur
i)e\('ra<,'e purposes, could be enforced: mil if so, wliether it woidd be beneliciai or
injurious? J cannot express an opinion on that subject. I ha\e not been east for a
Ltreat many years, and T am well aware that conditions chan;,'c very materially in a very
few years.
.'19100. Have you noticed whether j)ublic .siMitiment in re;,'ar(l to the drink liabit
.md the drink trade has changed within your recollection in Hiitish Coluinbi.i .' .\s I
have explained, I think there is a tendency to restrict the number of license^ issued, I
think, so far .'is I can fjauf^e ])ublie sentiment, there are (piite enough licenses issiu'd in
\'ictoria.
30IG7. What is the population of Victoria '. -About L'.").000 : some say it i- -.'(i.OOO.
H91(')8. And there are 107 license!- issued here / —Yes.
.S!)l()',). That would be 1 to '2i)0 pe<iple? -That is takin;.' wholesale and everytliinj,'.
I think there arc 47 saloon lii'enses ; at one time there were 80.
.'59170. And there are '21 hotels ? -They are hotels. If you wish to drink, you cm
drink as easily in an hotel as in a saUxtn. Of course there is a ;,'reat (lifl'erence in tlie
way the )>laces are managed.
By JiKhje McDonald :
.'59171. You have expres.sed an opinion that the Sunday laws pre.ss heavily on the
restaurants, hotels and saloons ?- Yes.
.'59172. In saliwns there is moi'c business carried on after jjrohibited hours .' Yc-;.
39173. Are there billiard and pool rooms also? — Yes, and sale of cigars.
•'5917-1. Is no provisi<»n made for ordinary meals ?- -I fancy there is fooil jirovidcd,
if it is necessary.
39175. Hut not unless a customer wishes it .' — No.
39176. \''ou hiave spoken of licenses running on under the old system without being
renewed, and .so becoming, as it were, coiniected with the individual. In case of iles-
I ruction of the house by fire or otherwise, and the man not rebuilding, would the license
t lien exist ? — In the Statute the Board of License Commissioners have power to authoii/.e
I he holder of the license to sell somewhere else.
39177. You were asked whether you thought a prohibitory law could be enforced,
and I think you said you had not considered the question? — It would be very difVuiilt
lo enforce.
39178. Take such a law as existed recently in the North-west Territories, which
adjoin this province; the power of .search was given to the authorities in order to.seai-ch
tor liquor, and in these Territories there was maintained a large force of Mounted Police
tor the purpose of carrying out that law. From your knowledge of the people of British
* 'olumbia, do you think they would lie satisfied to have such a law enacted and applied
475
Liquor Traffic — lU'itish (^olumbia.
tu this province, ■■ 1 iw tliat would jjivt; the rij^ht of search of person and residence, in
firder to ascertain wiietiier the people had hipior or not I — J^oes it work satisfactorily in
tlie Nortli-west Ter>-itories?
•■l!H7U. That is one nf tlic (piestitins we have to report on. Tlie Act is not in force
there now, for tiicy have a license law tiieie. I ask yoa the ipiestion in tiiisway : You
are an old resident here, you know the people and their teniieraiuent and their habits :
do yuu helieve sucii a law would be conj^enial to them 1 — I would not like to speak in
re<iar(l to other peojile's opinions, for it is a matter that lias never been mooted here to
my kiiowled<,'e.
;>tU)^0. You understand tliat the question refers to what is calletl national pro
hibition. It, is proposed by the advocates of prohibition to i)rohil)it brcnveries and dis
tilleries, and so i)revent li(|Uor bein<; matiufactured in this country, and also imported,
cxceiit for medicinal, mechanical and sacramental pui'poses ? — You must obtain that
information from somelwdy else.
olUf<l. All vou sav, then, is that such a law would be very ilitttcult to enforce'! —
Yes.
\l
WELLINUTON J. DOWLER, of Victoria, Clerk of the .Muiii.'ipal ("ouiuil, mi
beiuij; duly sworn, deposed as follows ; -
JJi/ Jndgi' McDonald :
.•i',)l82. Are you Clerk of the Police Court?— Yes.
;i9l8.1. How long have you resided in this province ?— About \'l years.
.■)0184. Have you lived all that time in Victoria ?^No, T have lived in this city
probably foui' or five years.
;l!US5. How long lia\e you be(>n City Clerk ? -About three and a half years.
.'i!)lS(). l)id you comt! here from one of the othei' provinces .' -Yes. from Ontarin,
from Toronto.
;i!HS7. As City Clerk, have you anything to do with tlie working of thelicen.se law '
— Notliing that T am aware of furthei' that' io act as Clerk of the Tacensing Court. I
have nothing to do in connection with the working of tlu> system, e.veept receiving pay-
ments.
.'ii)|SS. Have you any knowledge respecting the granting of licenses other than tli:it
the .Mayor possesses?- No.
.'ilUSD. As t^lerk of the Police Court have you anything to do with infringement^
of the provisions of the law ? Yes. Freijuently witln'cspect to .selling liquor to Indian--.
( >ccasionally that is done liy saloons and hotels.
;l',tl90. In such cases, is it very ditlicult to get proof ? Very.
•'19101. IJo you lind the witnesses troubled with wretched memories in connection
witii the facts of ca.ses ? — Yes.
.'iStli)'2. Do you find that other people are sent into saloons to get litiuor for tin
Indians? — Yes, mostly Chinamen. They are the people wiio violate the law.
.■{919.S. Are any Cliinamcn licensed to sell li(juor in this city ?- No.
.■19194. Have any cases been brought up for selling li(|Uor on Sunday or to minor-.
or ca.KCs of that kind (--At the beginning of lasfyear there was a law pa.s.sed closing u|i
saloons on Sunday. There have been some infringements of the law, but they have not
been brought before the Police Court.
•'f'.UOr). Have you many cases of drunkenness brought before the court ? — Yes, (|uiir
a number.
.'19190. Are any of those individuals brought u}) again and again ? — Yes. We ha\i'
a number of habitual drunkards, although I do not think tluMe is a large nuinl)i'i
considering the si/e of tiic^ city.
RouEitT i?iv\vi;s-.
476
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
iilence, in
ictorily in
ot in force
yay : You
if liahits :
spi'fik ill
'd here to
,i(iiial pro-
s find dis
imported,
btiiiii tliat
enforce ? —
'oinu'il, «iii
II tliis I'ity
[•ears.
(^ntiiriii.
cense law '
Court. I
Jiving Jiav
tlian tliMl
ingenipnt^
to Indian-.
f;onnecti(iii
nor for till'
to nininr>,
closing;- u]'
ly have tuiI
-Yes, <Hlili'
We havr
ge liuiiiliii'
.■591!t7. Have you considered whether in regard to tiiose people wiio are constant Iv
lieing brought before the coui't, it would not be better to lock them up in inebriate
asylums or some other place where tliey would have a chance of IxMiig reformed? — I
think it would be a good jilan.
."$!) ll)**. jiave you had any expei'ience of the working of a prohibitory law '/ — No, I
have not, further tlwin ^hat I saw under the North-west Act.
■'J9199. Have you lived in the Territories ? - No, [ have no practical knowledge.
.■{1)200. Are you in a position to .say whether such a prohil)itorv law c(»uld 1m' enforced
in this country ?- -It would b(! ditlicult to do so.
.'U)li01. Taking this conununity as a wh(.le, do you find it to be a sober ant< law-
abiding one ! -Yes.
39202. You think this community would compare favourably with towns in tln>
eastern provinces where you iiave lived? — No : in Toronto there is nmch less drunkenness
than here, generally speaking.
.■i920.'{. Have you a larg(! nautical or seafaring population here I — We have a con-
siderable floating population.
U9204. Do any of them appear before the Police Court .' — Yes, a few. Of course
they ar(> sailors.
;{920r). Of course there are more at some seasons than at others? Yes. When the
sealing vessels are in, there are a number of men here.
.'?920t). Have you considered whether, in the event of the passage of a general
prohibitory law, it would right to comp<»nsate brewers and distillers for their loss of
plant and machinery f — I have not given ihe subject such consideration as would enable
ine to give an opinion on it.
By Rev. Dr. McLcod:
39207. You are Clerk of the Police Court I Yes.
39208. Yon have charge of the records of the casjs that come befoi'e the Magis-
trate 1 — Yes.
.39209. You make the rec.rd ? YVs.
39210. Will you give us a copy of the recoi'd, showing the number of arrests for
drunkenness? — Yes ; [ have just sent the return to Ottawa, but i ha\e a recoi-d that
will show the number of arrests for this year.
3921 1. You have sent away the returns foi' the year? -Yes.
39212. J)o they include the arrests for drunkenness? — "^'es, and the otVences that
are dealt with by the Police Magistrate.
39213. is there a large jiroportion of the cases due to driiik ? — Y*.-,.
39214. \Vhat proportion? -^ I may say ful'y three-fourths, cvept such cases as
larceny.
3921."). Havti you many of the class cal'i'd repeaters in the list of drunkards, men
who come before the court once ,'i fori iiiglit or once a month? There are a nunibei- of
them.
39210. Speaking of cases other than those for drunkeinie.ss, are any of them tlue,
directly or iiulirectly to the use of litpior, such, for example, as disorders and larceny '. —
Possibly.
39217. Vagrancy, '-i. ? guite so.
.39218. Will it be ••■..isible for you to give us a ri'porl of the casts .'- - Y'es ; liul the
Chief of Police will " Ae to givt> you information.
39219. Do you know whethei' drunkenness is increasing, as shown l.y your
record?— 1 have an idea that it is increasing, but the popidation is increasing.
.39220. hoes di-unkenness keep pace with the increase in j>opuiation .' I rather
think so.
.39221. I think we understoiMJ that there wore fewcM' licenses issued now than
fornxu'ly. Do you know whether that has les.sened the amount of drinking? - 1 could
not answer that (|uestion.
39222. Do you from your .)tlicial position, tliink that the license law is violated by
the lie(!naees, in that they sell dui-ing certain prohibited luairs and on the Sabbath? — I
am not prepared from my oth 'ial knowledge to say anything about tlial.
477
p
LitMor Traffic — British Columbia.
Ill
39223. Dc cases of sucli violations come before the Police Court ■? — They did at the
beginning of the year more than they have recently done. I do not know whether they
are selling or not on Sunday. •
39224. Do you know whether there is illicit sale, that is sale by others than
by licensees ? — From hear say only.
39225. Have such cases come Ijefore the court 1 — They have not ; but 1 understand
they occur.
39226. Have you considered the question as to whether prohibition, well enforced,
would be beneficial or injurious to the country, in its bu.siness affairs and its social
life ? - T think it would.
39227. Would be beneficial or injurious? — I think it would, all things considered.
T am not prepared to say as to the enforcement. I think it would be rather difficult to
do that.
39228. You think the enforcement would be somewhat difficult ? — I certainly do,
from the history of past efforts.
39229. Do you think it would be advantageous to limit the number of licenses in
Victoria '/— It might.
39230. Of that you are not sure ?— No
M
!l
I)
HENRY WILLIAM SHEPPAKD, of Victoria, Superintendent of City Police, on
l)eing duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
By Jud'je. MfDonald :
39231. Were you appointed l)y the city authorities or by tiie Provincial Govern-
ment ? — By the city authorities.
39232. How long have you held office? — I have Ijeen Superintendent foi- foui
years.
39233. How long have you resided in British Columbia ? -A little over thirtv
years.
39234. During the whole of that time has there been license law in force in con
nection with the sale of intoxicating liquors ? — Yes.
3923.5. Have you had any experience of a prohibitt>ry law in any countrj" ? -No.
3923(i. How large a force have you in the city? 22 men all told.
39237. Are their duties confined to tiie city of Victoria, or are they for the pro
vince as well ? — We are confined to the city.
.39238. Are the members of the force also appointed by the Council ? — Yes.
39239. Speaking generally, what are the duties you have to discharge ? Instiuit
my men and see that they do their duty.
39240. You look after the enfoicement of the city l)y-laws, I suppose ? — Yes.
39241. And of the licen.se law also? — Yes.
39242. And prosecute for illegal selling? — Yes,
39243. Are all these ([uestions brought before the Police Magistrate ? Yes.
39244. Take the license law and the way it is observed : have you reason to believe
that the law is fairly well carried out? — Yes.
39245. The liust witness spoke of cases l)eing brought l)efore the court in the l>egiii
ning of the year. Was that when the law came in ? -Yes, there were three cases befoiv
the court.
39246. Has there been a diminution in the numbei' of cases? — Yes, there have 1m'(>ii
none since.
39247. Have you re., lOn to believe that there is no unlicensed sale going on ? — No,
I do not think there is any.
39248. Do you believe the law is fairly well obser\ed ? — Fairly well.
Wellington J. Dowlek.
478
VC
c?
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
'/—Yes.
39249. From y<nir experience, are there any c'lianf^es you can sugjfest in the law ?
— -The only change I can suggest is that saloons should not have a license unless thev
provide l)eds and hoard.
39250. You think they should be brought under the class of hotels or restaurants?
— Yes, I think that would be better.
39251. I suppose in the discharge of your duties, you go about the cit}' prettv
generally '( — Yes.
39252. Do you find the people, as a whole, sober and law-abiding i)eople? — Yes.
compared with almost anj' part of the world. I have Ijeen all over the world nearly,
and I think this is one of the quietest places I have ever been in.
39253. You have here ijuite a srtifaring jxjpulation ? — Yes, when the sealing fleet
comes in we have quite a few.
39254. Then you have here quite a large Chinese population ? — Yes.
39255. So far as they are concerned, are they soljer? — Y'es. I do not think in our
whole history we have had more than three Chinamen ever arre.sted for l)eing drunk.
3925t). Y'ou have, of cour.se, people brought up fre(juentlv for drunkenness?
— Ye^.
JP. ~ Ale they sent to jail? — Ye.s, they serve a term.
't*"') ,Iow long is the term ! — It ranges from ten days to two months.
-I/-,'-'). Fron: your experience with such people, do you think the present system of
sending these mei to prison for short terms is bettei- than sending them for long periods
to inebriate institutions with a view to their reformation ! — I think the latter would lie
the l)etter way.
392f)0. They have lost all control of themselves! — Yes, they appear to have done
.so.
39261. Taking your knowledge of the people, and living amongst them, and taking
those who use intoxicating flrinks as l)eveiages, would the number of those who drink to
excess be lai-ge or small ? — It would not be very large.
39262. Wouhl it only be a small percentage of the whole ? — Yes.
39363. Then of that small percentage, some drink to excess more than others ?
— Y'es.
39264. Have you considered at all the advisability of enacting a general prohil)itory
law ? — Y'es, and I do not think it would lie advisable.
39265. If enactej, co'iid it be enforced, taking this country as it is? — I do not
think it is needed.
39266. Do ^ '.>i ihi!.' it could be enforced if passed !— Y'es.
39267. Ana i^ie na..';orities would be able t<i prevent liquor i)eing brought in ? — No
doubt, smugglii. v. u'." pu on. In this island you could smuggle almost anything.
39268. Have yc«u " copi f/f your annual rejiort with you ? — Y'^es. (Copy of leport
tiled.)
39269. I observe tlvri- were 406 cases of drunkenness last yeai' according to your
report ? — Yes.
39270. And 801 cases brought before the couit i — Yes, they were not all arrested.
39271. That vvas the number of total c<mvictions ? —Y'e.s, that includeil the by-law
cP'-'-s.
39272. Of the total, 406 were cases of drunkenness? — Yes.
39273. I observe the cases of Indians number 231 i' Yes.
39274. And of those 175 wei-e foi' l»eing drunk ? — Yes.
39275. ]i le ciuses of the Indians, tlid you tr\' to find out where they got the
liquor? — Ye... '* hf, Chir.ese generally got it for them.
39276. Did ' * iicceed in making cases?- -In a few cases.
■ 39277. You 1 L'9 'ouvictions? — Y'^es, for supplying them.
39278. Wert the persons so convicted licensed? — No.
39279. They were unlicen.sed ? — Y'^es.
39280. Out of 175 cases of Indians, there were 29 convicted the second time ? — Y'es.
39281. And 8 pro.secutions were dismissed? — Yea.
39282. Then there were 42 persons convictetl for vagrancy ?— Yes.
39283. I ,see you had 79 Chinese convicted ? — Yes.
479
.1 '
■ r
liiquor Traffic — liritish Columbia. ' :
.■592!^4. I conxi'iitulatc you, Chief, on the way this report is prepared, for it is imc
of the l3est compiled reports I liave ever seen. Can you file copies to the Commission '
— Yes, I can tile i-eports for seven years.
.■59280. Have you considered the (juestion, whether in the event of the passing of a
general prohibitory law, brewers and distillers should be compensated foi- their loss of
plant and machinery ? — Yes, I most certainly think so.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
.■5i)286. Why would you compensate them ? — They have been at a very large outlay
for their machinery, and the passing of such a law would cut o£F their business, and it .
would be practically ruinous to them.
39287. Do you understand that they are only licensed from year to year to camy
on business ? — They are licensed, I believe, by the Dominion. Of course the city
derives nothing from that.
39288. Being licensed from year to y v f'oe« not the right to carry on the business
close with the end of the year 1 — Yes.
39289. And yet you think it would be n; > compensate them for the loss they
sustained b}' the closing up of their business 1 — \ ..s.
39290. Or for the plant they employed 1 — That would be part of their outlay.
39291. Have you any breweries here ? — Yes, there are five, two small and three
large ones.
39292. Are they supposed to be making money ? — I cannot tell you.
.39293. Do they do a large business ? — Yes.
.39294. Anfl yet you would compen.sate them. Would you have the Dominion
compensate them ? — Yes, if the Dominion collects the license fees.
39295. Then you would have the people taxed in the country to pay to compensate
these men ? — Certainly not.
39296. How then would the (government get money with which to compensuti-
them ? — I suppose it would ha\e to come from the people ultimately.
39297. I notice a certain number of cases of drunkenne.ss, not quite one-half, out
of the total cases. What i)r()portion of the other offences are connected with drunkeii-
uess ? — I judge one-third.
.39298. What proportion of the people are total abstainers ? — I do not know that
any of them are.
.39299. What proportion of the people brought before tiie court are total abstainers .'
— I could not answer that question.
39300. Do you think there has been any change in the customs of the people a^
regards drinking ; do you think drinking has increased or flecreased ? — It has increased,
because the population has increased.
39301. Has it increased in a greater ratio than the population? — 1 think it has, to
some extent.
.39.302. I think you said there were no illicit places here? — Yes.
39303. I noticed that when you mentioned cases of sale of liquor to Indians, ymi
said there were 29 cases and the persons sold illicitly ? — A Ciiinaman would meet an
Indian and go in and get a bottle of li(|uor for himself, and he would give it to tlir
Indian.
.39304. So they supplied the Indians by the bottle ! — Yes.
.3930"). Do you know whether the licensees observe carefully the provisions of tln'
law ?— They do.
39306. Are they ojien ail night? — Yes. There is no hour for closing, except "in
Saturday, when they close at 11 p.m. until Monday.
39.307. Do you think they sell on Sunday ? -I believe some do. Many of-tlniii
close. We cannot watch the places all day and there are people in a.id out all tliai
time, and all night Uhk The law should compel the dealers to remain closed.
.39.308. Then you could not say whether drinking was going on or not? — No.
.39309. How many nine have you on the force ?- Twenty-two, all told.
39310. Are they instructe<l to watch the licensed places, to see that they keep tin'
law ? — Certainly.
Henry Wilua.m Sheppaud.
480 " •
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.'^931 1. And do they make sonio coiiiplaints / — Yi's.
.SD.'H'i. [)n you find it ditKrult to olitiiiii c-onviftions in such cases .' Yo.-,.
.'iD.'U.'J. Wliat is the trouble ? — Tlie trouble is tliat when the constable goes into
thes(! places there is nobody ilrinking
•{!);{14. Unless he goes in in ilisguise. I suppose ,' — Yes.
39315. Are there very many ju\enile casi's before the court? — I do nut think there
are ever any such cases.
3931(). Is it the habit of ymu- men to arrest men who are ihunk .'- Yes.
3i)317. For instance, if a man was drunk, but was going home (|uietly, woidtl tliey
arrest him ? — No.
393 is. But if he was creating a disturbance they woulil ? — Ye.s.
39319. Afe tlie majority of those arrested for druidcenness making a row ,' — Yes.
393i*0. Are there many houses of ill-fame in \'ii'toria .' l)o they sell liipior ?-- Yes,
there are (juite a few, and thev sell li(|uor.
39321. Are they licensed" to sell? No.
393l'l'. Are these jilaces raided by the polici' sometimes? Yes.
39.32.3. Have you any idea as to how many tiiere are? — I could not tell yun Just
now.
393'21. Could you send a statement to the Commission ; Yes. I tiiink theic are
about .SO.
39320. And vou think li(|Uoi' is suld in all of tliem .' — ^'es.
if
FAlK^rHAlJ .MacL'UAE, of ^■iet..ria, Folice .Magistrate, on being duly sworn,
deposed as follows ; —
lijj Judyc McDonaUl :
3932(i. Are you a professional man .' - Yes, I am a i)arrister and sulicitor.
39327. How long have you been Police .Magistrate of Victoria .' Siv months.
39328. How long have you resided in tlie city ?— Aliout 11 months.
39.329. How King li!iv(^ you been in the province? — T\w same time.
.39330. Did you come iiere from one of the other i)roviiices .'-—!' came herefrom
New Zealand.
.39331. What system was in force in New Zealand in regard to tlie use of into.vi-
eating liquors ? — A license system.
•39.3.32. Is it anything likt? the law we have in tliis country .' [s it on the same
basis ; -Certain peoplt> are licensed to sell under certain restrictions, Ijut the regulations
are somewhat dill'erent.
39.333. As Police Magistrate, you try all cases of infringement of tin city by-laws
here ? — I do.
•39.334. And also other cases ? — En fact all eases that can be tried summarily are
trieil by me.
39,33.j. And I sujipiose you take examinations in cases sent to the superior courts'?
— Y'es, iind also cases under the .Suimnary 'IVials Act.
.39.33(5. Taking the eonnnunity as a whole, do you Iind tliis to be a sober and law-
abiding one ? — Yes, T should say fully up to the average. Of these matters, liowe\er, 1
cannot speak with authority, as I attend to my work and do not go about much.
.39337. Have you had tiny experience in the working of a |)rohibitory law 1 — No.
•39.33S. Perhaps you have considered the ([uestion as to the advisability of prohibi-
tion? — No, I have not considered it in such a manner as would warrant me giving an
opinion on it that would be worth anything.
393.39. Havi- you been long enough in this province to lie able to say whetiier it
would bo practicablt! to enforce such a law here ? — I am not prepared to say. \ do not
know whether the Scott Act has been practically enforced in thejiarts of the Hominion
wliere it has been in force.
481
Jl_31**
"fcl
* Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
.'jyjUU. You havo liiul no otlier experience in tlie Douiinion other tlian in British
Columbia, i uiiderHtand 'I — None .vhatever.
.'5'.).'54l. Taking tiie cases that come before you, is a large proportion due to the use
of intoxicating beverages ?— Yes, a considerable portion.
;?y.'{12. Have you a good many cases of drunkenness ?— \''es.
.'SD.'M.S. Anfi taking other cases o".tside of that class, is there any large proportion
that may be said to l)e connected with the use of intoxicating li(juoi's'( — There is.
."iy.Slt. How large a proportion would there be ?— I cannot sjK>ak of the offences as
a whole, but certainly as regards crimes of violence, the greater part are the I'esult of
drink.
;}ii."5 15. You have had ca.ses before you for disposing of liquor to Indians ? — Yes, a
considerable number during my six months.
;{9;54G. And have there been many convictions 1 — The Indians are generally
convicted.
.■{i).'547. For ilrunkenness 1 — Y'es.
.'i!).'5-lS. Are there many convictions of people wlio furnish them with licjutjr ? — No.
."59^(49. Do you find it difticult to get evidence in those ca.ses / — -Yes. I am vevy
anxiinis to get evidence of the sale of liquor to Indians.
.'{'J.'i.'jO. J.)o you not find the sentiment of the community favourable to the suppres-
sion of the sale to Indians / — Y'^es, that is so.
39.'5-j1. In cases that are convicted before you, arc the offenders persons who are
licensed, or are they not 1 — Some are and some are not.
.■{!)."5.'»:i. Are there any amendments you could suggest to the Commission in regard
to the license law '! — I could hardly speak with authority from my experience as Magis-
trate, as I have (nily been suc'i for a short time. I would say this, however, that I have
been struck both as ^lagistrate and as a citizen by the fact that the .saloims are open at
all hours of the night. Tliat is contrary to my experience elsewhere, andT know New
Zealand and Australia pi'etty well. There is no limit except from 11 .Saturday night to
1 Monday morning, when they are supjiosed to be closed.
;M);{.");5. You think it would be well to have the hour limited ? — I see no reason wiiy
Victoria should be an exception in this respect Of course there may be a good reason
for it, but I speak as a comparative stranger.
39."5r)f. You have people brought before you who are convicted of drunkenness aiul
r'-Mt to jail, and go back to the saloons and then back to jail, and so on ? — Y'^es.
;59.'i.")."). Have you considered the (|uestion as to whether that is a proper mode of
(healing with tho.se jjcople, or whether it would be better to have them sent to inebriate
asylums for long terms with a view to their reformation ? — The present limit is six
months for tlrunkcnnrss. I have not sent any for more than three months. I think it
would be a goc.d thing to send them to inebriate hou.ses.
;59.'5.5G. Have you, in your experience as a Magistrate, had any diHiculty in I'egard
to the .sale of liquor in billianl and pool-rooms ? — I have had no ca.se before me.
.'{9.'5o7. Have you considered the ([uestion whether it would not be better to
separate the two, and not allow sale of li(]Uor in billiard and pool -room s / — I have not
considered that point. I understand that in all saloons billifirds are played, or in
nearly all.
.'i9."<o8. In New Zealand, what kind of licpiors are mostly used, spirituous licjuors
or wines and ales 1 — Ale, under the name of beer. New Zealand brews beei, and it i-'
drunk by most of the people.
lU)."};")!). Is the climate ther(> anything like the climate here / -In the south of New
Zealand, it is not unlike Victoria, but in the north, wheiv I lived most of my life, tlir
climate is wai'nier.
39.'?r)0. Are light wines used there at all? — By many, but not generally; well to
do people are in the habit of using wine.
HO.'iOl. Have you breweries and distillei-ies there ? -There are no distilleries there
now. There were some 15 years ago, and they were brought under the Colonial Act.
.'59.'?Ol'. Are the people there law-abiding and sober citizens 1 — They are as law
abiding jus in the old country.
Fakquhak M acCkae. .
482
J,':-
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■J9363. Do you find any differt'iii'e us regards tliis uityduetoit liaving a lloatiiig
nautical population coming and going? — It is not uidike other seaport towns. Mv own
town in New Zeajand was a seapoi't.
; well t"
JSy Rev. Dr. McLmd :
3!)."5G I. Do I understand that the distilleries in New Zealand were suppressed 1 —
They were.
.TO.'SC)."). Why? — It occurred a long time ago, and I hardly rcnieniher.
.■{i)3G(5. \Va.s it because of the Colonial Act? — Yes, under that Act they were sup-
pressed. I was very busy at the time, and I was n(jt particularly interested in the sub-
ject. I think compensation was given to the owners. They were not allowed tcj work
more tiian three oi' four years I remember.
.'}9.'567. W. theie a temperance sentiment among the people that biought about
the suppressio'i v/f those distilleries ? I will not say that it was the desire of the people
to iiave thiMO suppressed, but tliei'(> was a desire to suppress them manifested.
;}9.'?()!<. l~)o yi " know '"hy there was a desire to supjjress them .'-I remember tiiere
was a general impr'->iion ani >ng tiie jx-ople that New Zealand whisky was not as whole-
some as that prod • jd in the old country. That was the general conclusion.
39300. Was tlie suppression of the New Zealand distillei-ies for the purpose of intro-
ducing better whisky into the country ? — It was believed that the jieople must have
Itetter di'ink ; they thought that Scotch whisky was bettei' than New Zealand whisky.
39370. Do you know whether, after the sujipression of those distilleries, thei'e was
,1 diminution in the consumption of distilled liquors ? — I cannot .say anything in regard
to that matter.
.39371. Was there a large consumption of beer ? — Yes.
■39372. Do you know whether there was a larger consum])tion of l)eer and a reduced
use of tlistilled liijuors, or do you think the consum{)tion in one case kej)t pace with the
other ?- -No, New Zealand people are not spirit drinking people ; I refer especially to jieo-
ple born in the country.
39373. You think the}' are a beer drinking people ? — Yes, and the young jieople
are very nuich more temperate than the old settlers, and a great many of them are total
abstainers.
39.374. Do you think there is an increase of total abstainers among the young peopli;
uf New Zealand? — There has been a marked increase, and y(ju can see it every few years.
39.37o. To what do you attril)ute that increase? — To the lai'ge iniluence of the
liands of Hope.
39370. To religious and moral influences? — Yes. Thei'e are Bands of Ho])eall over,
and some of the settlers who are given to drink take ciire to send their children to the
iJands of Hope.
39.377. How many years' experience had you there as a barrister .' — Onlycjiie.
39378. In your experience as a barrister in iS^ew Zealand, did you come into contact
w ith criminal cases a good deal ? — i^ometimes, as all lawyerN do. .My work, however,
was not specially with tht^ criminal class, and 1 avoided that kind of work as much as
possible. My duties wei'e more in civil cases, but of c(jurse f woujil sometimes get a
I liminal case.
39379. From your expei'ience and ol)servation, did you tind anv |pro|)ortii)n of the
ii'iminal cases before the Courts in Now Zealand attributabli- to the iliink trade and
ilrink habit, directly or indirectly? — I should say that tin; majority of ca.^cs in New
Zealand were attributable to the use of lic|Uor, directly or indirectly.
.39380. And what did you find in regard to criminals that came before th(^ higlier
I ourts? — I think a fair pro{)ortion of them were also so attributable, but T could not .say
\\liat proportion.
39381. Have you obser\ed that as the drink trathc has increased, the drink habit
lias increased? — My experience in New Zealand was, and I am speaking generally, that
the tratlie increased as tiiere was a demand for liquor, that is in hotels. Saloons were
not known tiiere.
483
21— 31i**
m
Aji^ i
>'
:\h
Liquor Trtitlic — British Columbia.
;19;{S:2. I)iil yuu ulisci'vc this, tlmt as tlie habit uf total alistiiifiicc ainotij;' yuiiii;;
jteojiln ill New Zealand inerensed, there was an increased desire to restriet tlit^ trattie ? —
Yes.
:)'.(.'?S;i. So the teiicleiiev of tlie legislation is always towards greater restriction .'—
Yes. The ]ieo])li' have a right to refuse licenses.
.'i'.».'{S4. I )o you know whether many of the riiiiil districts lia\e refused to issue
licenses? — Yes, a cunsiderahle jjart in my own neighliourhood.
•"i'JISyr). Ts there a growing feeling in fa\'our of the total iiroliihition of the
tralKc .' —I should say there was .1 rai>idly growing feeling in that direction.
Jii/ Jniliji' MrDiiiKihl :
.")!)3.>G. Have yon considered the ijuestion of granting c(»iii|ieiisation to hrewers and
distillers for loss of plant and niachinery in case of the enactment of a general ]irohilii-
tor\' law for the I )oiiiiiiion ? — Tn New Zealand, a iiumher of hotels were do.sed ; coiii|)laiiii
was made as to the way in which they were conducted, and they were closed linally.
.■{it.'Jf*?. ^^lU did not consider the <|Uestion of comiiensatioii in regard to distilleries '
— I did. The conclusion that T came to was that, as the licenses were issued from year
to vcar, they were not entitled to any. They are nearly all wealthy men and did not
need it. I consider that if two or three years' notice was gi\ en it would lie jitn-fectly
fair and right, and that under sucii circumstances it would he iieitVclly proper to enni t
such a law without granting comiiensatioii.
.'V.).")SS. In the case of brewers and distillers in Canada, the lasv re(|uires tliein
to furnish certain machinery in conformity witii departmental regulation.-;. Spirits
have to be kept two years, for rectification purjioses. In bond. The ipiestion is whe-
ther it would he right and just in that ease to give compensation for loss of plant and
machinery that would lii' rendered useU^ss by such legislation .' — On the face of it 1 think
compensation should be made. \ did not think of that matter before.
Jlif li'r. Dr. McLfod:
.'513389. l>o you underst.ind that the law reipiires anybody to go into the distilliiiL:
own part .' — Ft is entirely \-olunlaiy. I
privilege of lieing allowed in
luiuarv on
the:
pay regularly for the
business, or is it entirely
should say
;5;);{'JU. Does the distiller
manufacture '.' — T think so.
.■{!)3!)1. So far as certain iilant and machinery being re(|uired for the business, he
need not go into the business unless he chooses. Does that fact entitle him to coiiipeii
sation .' Ts he not \iiulei-taking the liusiness voluntarily with all the risks invohed .'
Yes. I do not, however, know all the requirements for distilling in Canada, and 1
am not prepared to s.iy but that the requirements of the Dominion (iovernment may he
such as would make it a kind of wrong to continue the business. I think that if a large
sumof money i-^ put out in meeting tlios(^ requirements, you should be allowed to con
tin <Mhe business for a minilier of years at least, because 1 infer from whatJudue
McDonald has said, that for a certain number of years the business will be unpnjlitalile.
if the li(pior has to be stored away for purposes of rectification.
30392. What was the amount of the compensation given in Xew Zealand to di-
tillers? — I do not know. They were not allowed to work more than one year. <lnly
one or two were established, and they were suppressed.
.'(9393. Were they compensated? — T think so; but as 1 was \evy liusy, I did iini
pay attention to the matter. As so little advantage was taken by the distilling com
panies in New Zealand, the whole history has made but little impression on my mind.
.:a '
Far(^vu.vh M \cChak.
484
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
MOISKIS HL'MI5I\|{, ut' \'ictoi-iii, liuildcr- mid cijiitriictui', dm Ijciiig duly sworn,
df] Miscd iis follows : —
liji Judy JfcDoiKihl :
■">U.S1)4. You iire a nieiiiln'rof the City Cduik'H, T hclievo? -Yes.
.■)!»;(!(■). You iiro one of the Aldernion of tlic city ? — Yes, and I fim also oliairinan
of tlie Police Connnitter.
.■!'.);{ittl. Mow Ion;; liavo you l)eeii an Aldcinian ,' -This year and also durinjr the
year IS.SO.
.'l!)."i!)7. How long iiavc you been chaii'nian <)f the Poliee Counnittee .' -This year.
.■^'.l.illS. Mow lonu; ha\<" you lived in this pio\inee .' — Thirty yt-ars, next Ajii'll.
.■t!l.'{i)'J. Mid you eonie here fi-oin one of the other pros-inces .' — T eanie here fi'oni
'Mitario.
•■>!Mt)0. What |iart of Ontario .'From Howniauville.
."itUOl. Has there been a license law in force since you came ti> ^'icloria ,'- Yes.
A'// AV,-. Or. Mr Lead:
.">!) IOl'. You liave stated that you are a contractor ?-— Yes.
.'i'.llO.'i. l)o you emjiloy a good many men .'Yes.
•'>'J401. How many men do you emiiloy ! Sometimes 40 or •")().
.■il)40"). What is the character of the woi'k you cai'ry on .' IJuilding, in N'ictoria. I
iia\e built nearly half of it. lam also a brickmakei'. and in that business T employ
Chinamen and white men.
;5VI40<'). It is claimed that the drink trade and thedrink habit allert lalxiuritigmen :
what is youi' obser\ation ? JIow does it aiVect them, in youropinion .' M atl'ei'ts them if
they spend all their money on lit|Uor. You must remembi'r that workingmen in this
country cannot aH'oi'd to drink with liipio'' at 12.', cents a di'ink until recently, when -"i
lent beer came in.
.">i)407. Is the o cent l)eer manufactured here?- Yes.
.'lit 108. l.)o many of the men in your employ drink more or less ? .\lmost all of
tliem ; they do not lo.sc whole days, however, for they could not atl'ord to lose i?'2J)0 a
ilay.
.■5i)401). Mav(! you observed whether the workingmen lose any percentage of time
on account of their drinking habits? No. They drink pietty mucli aftertlunr work is
drine. They work hard.
•"VJlrlO. Are they better men for drinking ! -No.
•SiMrll. If a man is in the habit of drinking so that he lose-- one day per week,
would you be likely to put another man in his place if you could?— That would depend
on whether I was rushed for labouring nu'n or not.
.'5041'-'. Which do you consider more reliable, nien who diink or men who do not
drink .' — Those \\ho do not drink.
.')!'41.'?. l)o you find many such in IJrit ish Columbia?- Uritish Cohunbia i.: a dif-
tVreiit place from anywiiere else.
.'V.)414. Or in Victoria ? -In N'ictoria we iiaxc a floating iiopuliition and a iiii,\(Ml
population, Americans, (iermans, Chinese, Englisii, Cana<liaiis, aii;l all sorts, and what
\\e call respectable drinkers.
•■>It41-">. What is a respectable drinker? —A man who does not get diunk, but takes
a drink when he wants it.
3i»4U). Is there a great deal of that?— Yes.
.'i0417. Is there nuich driidcing that results in druid<eniiess? No. There is less
drunkenness in Victoria than in any other part of the world where there is a city of the
same size and a seaport. I do not think you ha\e seen a drunken man sinee you ha\e
been here.
•■5U41S. I must say that I do not recollect one. Have you obser\ed whether the
drinking of the people has increased or dinunished ? — There is, of course, a difference
iiere now, coinjiiired with the time when there were only ."i.OOO or 0,000 people.
485
l\:\
l'>;i
1 I
Liquor TiafTic — Hiitish Columbia.
;iyH!K I mean hiiviiifj; rofei'eiuM- to tlu; iiiciTiist; in pojjulatioii and iiuikiiiy allowfinee
for it?— No. I do not tliink <irinkin<; is incrtNisiii;^ xi-ry nuicli.
;i!l|"20. Takf tin; man who di'inks regularly rvfry day l)ut docs not get drunk very
often, tliougli lie may sometimes go a little under the weather, otl' colour, or something of
that sort: what have you to say in regard to him? I am not uj) in the terms.
.'VJ4l!l. Take the man who drinks evei'y day : do you consider that he loses any time
on account of drinking? — T have seen men who mak(! hettei' time? sometimes.
3!ll22. Ts it l)ecaus(> tliey (h'ink ? — They will work hard and stop in the tavern and
get a glass of heer if tliey feel they need it, while the temperance man will get a glass
of water. 1 oliserve that some of my men go into the tavei'n and get a glass of heer
and some hread and cheese. Thei'e is of course evei'y inducement held out by the whisky
mills to attract men into them.
3!( t'i.'J. Is this a good thing for the men in the long run, as regards their working
capability ? — No, T do not think so.
30 I2t. Ft is claimed that on account of the drinking hahit, men lose time, and that
that is .so much lo.ss to the eonti-actor. It is also daimefl that on account of the drink-
ing habit, they sutTer a loss of wage-earning power. Do you think in the long run that
the man who drinks })eer regularly is better than a total abstainer ? -Tn regard to
tinances he is benefited, but he might make as much time as a total alwtainer oi- a tem-
perance man. There is, of course, th(' possibility of the man who drinks regularly
getting drunk, and the temperance man or total abstainer has not that drawback.
.■5942"). Have you observed any dirterence in the condition of the families of
men who drink an<l in the families of those who do not drirk ? — Yes.
.■^IM'JC). What is the ditFerence?— -In the case of the fanii!y of the men who drink,
they do ijot look so well. Thc^ man who drinks goes home imt does not attend to hi.-
gartlen as well as the temperance man.
39427. So from the workingman's point of view, do you believe that prohibition,
well enforced, would be a benefit to him and to his family?- -To winch man?
39428. To the workingman ?---I believe it would be beneficial to workingmcn.
taking them as a whole.
39429. Would it be beneficial to the contractors? — I guess so. Certaiidy I would
rather have a crew of tempei'ance men than a crew of drinkers, for T could depend on
the temperance men, who, like Chinamen, do not drink.
39-130. You are an alderman I believe? -Yes.
How
many years
Tl
lis year and m
1 sso.
39431.
39432. How long have you been chairman of the I'olice Committee? — This year.
3943;i. Have you to do with the police officers? — Yes, with seeing that the police
do their duty. They take their instructions from me. /
39434. Do you give them instructions to watch the li(iuor stores? — I am just the
man who does.
•3943."). What are your in.structions ? — That is a very difficult matter to state. At
first, when we commenced, we caught very few offenders. They were very careful, bur
we got in among them - -when I say we, I mean the policemen.
39431). What did they find? — They found them there. For instance: I was around
town on Saturday ni^ht with some aldermen. Wo went to a restaurant : three of the
aldermen were there and I hajipened to be one of them. It was after 11 o'clock. I
was grossly insulted by the projirietor of the saloon who came in. I told him that 1
did not wish to remain there to be insulted bj' him. He ans\vered : " Here is a police-
man, who will show j'ou out." I, said : "I cannot help that."' He said : "You can get
nothing here to drink." He went up to the bar and told me I could not get anything.
T took it all as a joke. But one of the party afterwards had to pay .'?.")0 for the drinks.
39437. Have you reason to believe that there is a great deal of illegal sale goinu
on ? — There is a good deal going on just now, and it is a difficult thing to get a.t the sale
of liquor after hours, because the Act says that a man can keep a light in a saloon and
have his doors locked. Two nights ago I was around and saw that. If a licensee get?^
three or four men in to drink, he will lock all the doors and they will go on drinking,
and the police cannot get in.
Morris Hl.mber.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■59i;iS. So illicit sail' },'im'm mi, mid you think it ciiiiiioi ijc invvoiitfd wliili- this statu
of tho law coiitiiun's ? it can he j)rc\ont('(l.
.'!!)(.'!!• From your ollicial t'X|)('rioncc and from yoiw oliscrvaiion as a citizen and as
ail (Uiipioycr of lahoiir and one who luiH hccii activo in civic afVairs durini^ many years,
do you think that the license law really re;,'ulatea the trade, or not? — -In the tirst placo,
licenses were <,'iven to corral the trade and make it resi)ectal)le, if it was ]iiissil)ie to do so.
.■('.) 140. Does it corral it .'—Well, no. f would fa\our very hi^jh license and then wo
would not lia\e disreputalile places.
.■{G4H. Which do you think would he the more dani^erous, saloons under hij^'h
license or the present places?--! think hij^ii license would he a henetit to every one,
for this reason : it would not be every man who would be able to obtain a license. At
present when any man ^'ets out of work he takes out a saloon license. You can only
f^et a hotel license liy having; a buildinj,' containing; so many licd-rooms. It only costs
•*>"J00 for a saloon license. If a low saloon did not happen to be on the road between a
man's work and ids home, he woidd frecpiently '^o home without jrettin^' a drink, but
when tliere are four or five saloons between him aiul liis iiome, lie is liable to droj) in.
Tf there was a hotel paying' .*1,(J00 or !?-',00() lici'ns( . would be far better.
.■M)t42. It is contended by some persons that wlien men ai'e ;d)le to ji.iy .■?1,U00 for
a license, tiie oidy dil!er(;nce is that they have a iii;,'h-tonud place, which is nuide
very attractive to tiie men and hoys, ratiier than places 7 x !) feet ? -Of course they do
not want working-men in those places. They are, iiowever, nuich lietter tiian low
dives and underj,'round beer cellars where men are apt to go and sta\- ahnost all
night.
.'5944;?. Have you obsei'\ed wiiat class of people visit low dives, the people who are
just lieginning to drink or people wiio have pretty nearly graduated? — Tiiey have pretty
nearly graduated. 'I'hey are generally old tipplei's or longshoi'cmen and .sailors and of
course some mechanics too, because tlio labouring class get big wages here and they
can afford to drink.
.■U)I44. This is also contended, that if there; was limited sale the high license places
W(jukl make their places attractive and cater to the iiigh class, while tliere. would l)e
low places si)ringing up foi- the poor people in lieu of saloons, where illicit sale would
be carried on 1 I do not think so.
.'{!)44r). If only a few licensed places were establislied, and these not of the class
frequented usually by the lalioui'ing class, would it not be taking away from them tiie
rigiit to drink ; in a word, would that not be class legislation I — When I spok(> of iiigli
license, 1 meant men wlio would spend !?!■"), 000 or .Sl.'0,000 to put up iiigh class hotels
containing .")0 or fiO rooms. I saj- such a man shoulil obtain a license, while saloons
wliere gambling and .something worse is going on should not obtain licen.ses.
.■$9446. Are saloons licensed to carry on gambling? — No.
.'59447. Tiien tliat is illegal ? — T believe it would be inhnitely better if there were
only four or five high toned hotels in Victoria. «
.■}944S. Do vou mean that the fewer places there are for selling liqu(U- tln' better?— -
Yes, I do.
."$9449. Tf you could reduce the nuinljcr to none, would thai be lietter still ! -Y''»,
we all know that.
Jiy Jiidye JfcDonald :
;^94r)0. How many men do you employ ?^Tn the summer I employ in the brick
yards about .'50, but of course it all depends on the work on liand : and in town 1 emjiloy
about 15 or 20 white men.
.394.")!. Do you ask your men if they are total abstainers or not /—No, I can tell
that pretty well.
;194.52. Do you make it a condition of their einployiiient th.it tliey shall be total
abstainers ? — No.
.394ij.'5. Have you men steadily in your employ wlio di'lnk in moderation .' -Ye.s,
some of my best meditanics and brick-layers ai-e hard drinkers.
.'i94.')4. Have you otiier men wlio drink and yet are not hard drinkers ? — I have
men who drink ami never get drunk, and that is called respectable drinking.
487
n\
h, 1
1 1"-
LiqiUM- TiiiHic- Hiitisli Colninlna.
Hlt4.").">. I tiiiil that in l'**".*!. tlif icwMMcfiMiii liciMist'd jilact'.s ill Victoriiiwiii- i?l(S,000 ,'
— Yew.
.'H(|5(). Was tliiit sum used Uiv the jfciicriil jmrposi-s uf tlu; city ( -Yfs.
.'{!M')7. Tliiit rt-vt'iiuc repi'csniitcd II.! liii'iiscd plaws, fjiviiij,' a total rtnt'ime uf
.SIH.OOU.' Yes.
t'.ttoH. Do I uiidoistaiid ymi would jjiffcr (liat tin- imiimIici' sluiuld ho kept down,
,'iiid that tile licenses sliipuld he lii;i,di i'iinU;L;li to funii.sli the siiniti revciiue / I lielifHe
that it' the lumilx'i' of licenses wefe reduced, wr should n(>t necid .such a lar^'c force of
police as we hav«' now. At the present time we have \!'2 polictMuen. 'J'lit'y have of
course to keep the criminals down.
;>'.iiri!». S'ou think if iher'e were fewer licenHCs j;ranted, there wouldhe lessdrinkinjj,
hut your idea is to ha\c hij;her licenst,' fees so as not to reduct^ the income? I do not
know aiioul tiuit. ^'ou would h.ive to ciiari;e four hits a drink to make it pay, and the
whole hox and dice mijuht he cut down.
.■iOlCtU. Take this community as a whole, is it a law-aliidint; and sohor one? — Yos.
■'{1)401. |)o you tiiink it will compare favourahly with other places you ha\'eknown i
I think it will compare f;ivoural)ly with (nen Toionto, of which you hear so much,
especially as rejjards Sunday obserx'vv.'c. 1 Ix^liese we sur|)ass the people there.
.'J94()2. Is this not a city in which a groat deal of liipioi- is consumed ? Take the city
as you know it. \'ou have ll;i places hci-e, which paid in lf<!)l an incumc of .^IH.OOO,
and that does luit take into account the (iiiantity sent to private houses ? [ lune no
doulit of it.
•■i!)40-">. Have you a good many old country people here .' — Y'es.
■■>y4t)4. iV'oj)le who are accustomed in their i>wn country t<i take licjuor in modera-
tion ?-— I helie\f (Jermans n'vei- drink water.
•■5',)4Gr». 'I'hose jieople keep up their natural habits here ' Yes.
•'194Gti. Yet you say that this counnunity is a sober and law-abiding one? Yes,
and I .speak what I know. All the liipior shipped her(! is not consumed in Victoria,
there is much Canadian whisky brouj^ht in here that is not drunk here.
;{94t)7. Where does it go? — Over to the other side. I do not want to tell you
where it goes. There is only Tnland Revenue duty to be paid on it, and Canadian
■whisky is a cheap drink, they say.
.■iy4(iS. You have a great many l)rewei'ies here, we understand? — Yes, two new ones
liave been establisli>"d here recently.
.■i!)4ft9. Ifow m.vny had you Iwiv before .' — There were tsvo or three before ; they
did all th(.' business, ')ut the business has increa.sed.
■'10470, How m ,ny ai-e there now ?— There are four or Kve. In If^Ol, there were
said to be -six or seven, l)ut at all events two of them were bought up by still larger
establishments.
■'V.t471. 1^0 tht?y manufacture for home consumjition ? — Yes.
.'V.M"'-'. Have you considered tUe tpiestion of granting remuneration to brewers and
distillers in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law? — T have thought
about it considerably and read about it.
■'?947'i. AVIiat is your view in regard to it? — As a temi)erance man, I do not think
they should lose all tluMr capital in\esteii, but time should be allowed them to get their
mojiey back.
.')9474. Then you would have somi^ mode of compeiis/ition fixed? — I think so, but 1
do not know. A great many go into the business with the knowledge that they will be
clcsed down if a prohibitory la* .• is passed.
■'59475. Y'ou understand that they are recjuired to have certain plant and machinery
ill connection with their business, and that the Government requires distillers to keep
their stock for two years for the purposes of rectification? T do not think it would be
right, for instance, to shut down any of these new breweries ; it would be thieving.
■'W476. It has been argued that distillers and brewers have licen.ses only from year
to year. Do you find that they really continue in the trade from year to year?— I iind
a great many remain in the busine.ss.
■'?9477. Are there any amendments you could suggest to the Commissioners in regard
to the license law ? — No, only what I stated in regard to high licensing.
Morris Humukr.
WM
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
llOHKItT II. HALL. .M.r.l'., nt Viciuiiii, ..n l»ciiig .luly ^\s.)i n, iIi'I.us.mI us t'..|-
l(jWH : —
//// Jlldijr Ml- huiiilhl :
'MH'iX. Wiiat is your husiiicMH or ii('('U|iiiti<iii f I ;iiii .MiiMiiifcr of the lliidsnii Itiiv
C!oiiijiiiiiy's l)llsill('^ss lii-ri'.
.'i'.tlTI*. Is tlic Imsiiii'Ns a iiicrtMiitilf one ^ ^'t's.
;!!»L'-'0. l,s it a p'lifriil store .' — Yt's.
.'tlilMj, Is the li(|uor business in couiieetion witli it ,' — We arc iui|>oi'ti-i's wliolly.
.'i!)|HL'. What is the cliaraiti'i' of till' license you hold f A wholesale lieeiisi-.
.'littM.'f. I )o vou sell in tlie ori;;inal packai^es .' ^'es.
:V.)\X\. Yoii ilo not sell l.y the ;;lass i No.
.'i'.t Jf<."). I low Ion;; have you lieen icsidint,' ln'i'' .' Not (|uite {\\i\ years.
;i!)4''^t'). W'liere (lid you resifle before that .' I n ditl'erent plaee^ in I he |iro\ inee.
liave been in the same employment for L'O years.
;f!MS7. Mow lon<,' lia\c you been in ISrilish ("olunil)ia( I'd yisirs.
.■l!l4f<S. |)i(l you eonie from one of thenihei' |iro\inces to Ihilish ColiMuiiia? 1
came from Ontario here.
.'iltb'^l). Which part of Ontario/ I lived in si-scral places: I li\e(l in the County
of \'ict(iria.
.■{9H)(). Can you tell the Counuissioners in what j)laees yon lia\e resided in I'n'itisli
Cohunbia besi<les N'ictoria .' I have resided at l'"ort Simpson in the north and on the
boundary of Alaska, and I have rt'sided at numerous places in the ii rrior.
•'i'.IHM. I'leaso state a fevv of them? Fort St. Tlionias, Kort .St. (ieorge.
•'{'.nOl'. Are they towns oi' villaiics .' You coidd hardly eall them so; they are
stations of the company.
;{!)4!).'$. lia\e you resided in any of the towns outside of N'ietoria '. Not jierma-
nently. I ha\'e been in N'ancouNcr more <ir less.
.■{'JH)L Is this the jilace from u hicli the ('ouipany sends out i,'oods throut,'hout Bri-
tish Columbia .' - Yes,
.'5!)4'.)."i. .Speakiuf,' as a citizen, how do you lind the license law work here ,' --.So far
as the opei'ation of th(^ license law is concerned I can tell you \^•\■\ little about it, as T
have; not watched its opei'ation.
^(ItHfl). |)urinj; the leni;tli of time you have been here, luu'e you found this to l)e a
soljer and law abidinj,' couniuniity .' — I should think remarkably so,
.'59497. Y'ou havi; spoken of havinj^ resided at Fort Simpson in the north. What is
tiio [xipulation tlu^re '. -Tlie population is not \ery large. There is a considerable tloat-
iiig population, and (ishermen and native Indians.
.'ildOi^. Is a lit'cnse law in force there? No,
."59499. Do the lludsiui liay Coiujiany control Fort Simpson .' No, they have ncj
oonti'ol there.
:?9i")00. Are there .Ma<,'istrii;es there ? Yes.
.'(9.")0L You s|ioke about livinj,' on the boundary of Alaska. I 'o you kncjw any-
tliing in regard to the .system in force there .' - I'l'ohibition has been attempted and is
the law of that eountiy : th.e sale of li(|uor is |)roliibited entirely.
.'59.')02. By the Alaska Legislature oi' by the United States Government ? — By tlie
United States Covernment, and tli(> law is attempted t<i lie carried out by men from
Washington.
.■i9ij03. Then it has no Legislature of its own .' No.
.'59.504. How does the prohibitory law work there .' -It is a complete failure.
.'59.")Or), Is liijuor obtainable? -In any quantity.
.'59.")O0. Is it .smuggled in .' — It must be, for you cannot order it in the usual way ;
it cannot be brought in lawfully. I was up in the princi))al '.own of Alaska, .luiieau,
When I visited it there were tliirty-tlwee saloons in that little town.
'59.507. What is the population of the town? — I'i'obab'y 1,200.
.■J9.")08. Can you speak as to the kiiuf of li(|uor sold there, whether' it was alcoln)!
or ale ? Both were to Ire had in abundance.
489 .
4 ,
i!l'
Liquor Traffic — Hritisli ('ohinibia.
SD'tO!*. Oo you know Miiytliinjj; us to the (nuilily. vlother tlioy witc iwlultfrated or
not? — The most of it was the vilest siuH'tluit could be ,;ot aiiywluMV. Tiiere is a very
^reat deal of it maiiiit'aetured t'roin ('iiult' spirits, and it was doctored so as to make it
!f)ok like whisky or aiiytliiiii,' else.
."illalt). Can you tell the Commission. ts as to the priees of li(|Uors there.' — The
price is very hard, hut it does not seem to make any diH'ei-ence in the consumption.
;59fJil. What is the price / — The \>v'n-o is ■_'."> cents a drink.
.'lOoli. Do you know any other place in .\laska except J'.ineau / -Sitka.
;'!)~)LS. liow is the business theie'.'- It is just the same.
.'}',};■) 11. Ai'e th"re many saloons in Sitka ( — Yes.
•■ilt51."). Does the (lovermnent not ]iut this tiaiie down f They are not able to do
so. I do not tliink the (iovernment oHicials could put it down utdess they Iwul a very
large army in the teri-itory. The majority would defy any interpretation of tlie law
tliat would hi'inir about pi'ohibition.
.■5!).")1(). Was li(|Uor to be obtained at many places ; I am pi'etty sure there were no
places wl;er(! it could not be obtainerl. T have seen both Indians and white men drink-
in^' there.
.'$9517. How did it comjiare with other places in whicli you have lived ? — It w,is
har<ler to obtain litpior in them, l)ei'ause it was a (.istancc away.
•'i!t.")lS. Do you know \\he1lier resori was had to other i-ouipounds in lieu of liijUor
in those places ?'— The Indians nianufactori' li()uor (ait of I'ice and molasses.
.■iOol!). They have stills of tlieir own f -Yes.
•"il).")'JO. Judging from youi" experience in those matters, do y a think a prohibitory
law could be eiiforcerl in this province '.' -I do not think so, T know it could not be.
.'i!)r)2i. i[ave you lixcd in any other i)roliibitory counti'V than Alaska .' \o.
.■)!).")i'2. In the cNt'iit of a genet vl jtrohibitory law being enacted, do you think it
right that brewers and distillers shcald be compensated for the loss of tlanr plant and
machinery rendered useless? — 1 should think th(>y could claim it legally.
.'iitoL':!. Taking ycair business hiMe, ,lo you find the taste of the people ri:n to light
wines and ales or to spirituous licpiors ,' - I think it is very generally divided. The con-
sumption of ales is considerable. The wines, especially California wines, are very popu
lar, and the demand is increasing,
.19r)24. We have been informed to-day that two neu breweries have been started.'
—Yes.
.'5952"), Is there a large output at present from the 'ircweries .' 1 think there \»ill be.
.'?9r)2(i. Ts there much ale imported from England? - A good deal, consideiing 'he
price.
■V.)i')'27. You have a good many English people residing here, 1 siipiiose ?— Yi-, a
good many.
.■{9r)2S. Is lager Iteer sold her;-? — Yes.
.'iOoi'i). Is there much demand for it ? -Yes. It seems to be taking the j>lace of
leavier li(|Uors
.'Mto.'U). In what size pack
liquor that lonies here to l)e bottled.
cages IS lager impi
rted
do n<it
now iniii-h ai)otit tlie
.■59").'l]. I thought your company imported it ? -Yes. it is ail bottled.
.'i'.tr):ii>. is it brought from the i nited States? Yes. from .M"
llwaukee an(
I St. L.
Jii/ Ji'er. Dr. McLeod:
\\)')'.\?i. Siieaking about Port Simivson, is there no lau auaiiist the sale of iiiiunr
there ?- Yes
NJ.
•■Vy^'.W. Is the
I ted.
'I
of liipiia' legal?- I do not think so. for there were m
lii)")."}"). You have said lliat there was ;i goo<l deal of li(iuiM' so
Id th
I did
not
say that. I do not know w
men drinking.
hat was sold. 1 said I
have seei
1 both Indians and whit<
'90.'!','). Did the Hudson l>ay Company sell ? No. At <
v-ns myself in charj
I found the licens
UaVe me a
our company not to renew it.
HoiiKirr II. II.M.t,.
go
me time th(>y did.
)le ami I
)d deal of trotil
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
;tl>r).'i7. In wlmt way did the liociisi' t;i\t' :i dcid ot' t I'oiihlc f I was tlic utdy M'lidor
iif spirits autliori/cd, and if ii(|ui)i- was sinuifirled in and tlio peoplt' ifdt di'uid<, it wi's
laid at my (Iddt and I was made to appear to hv the (.•ause of it. lUit stran;;*' to sa_>
aftor I dropped tlio lioiMise, tlicro was a still worse condition of all'airs than tlicro had
been lieforc.
.■i'.l.");}S. Ho you tinnk tin-re was more drinking' after yon had eeased to sell than
there was lu'foi-e .' — Yes. (Jf course we only sold wholesale.
■VjiuVJ. In reifard to Alaska, you iiave said that there was a ])rohiliitory law in
force there, and althou<;h its enfor<'enient was attempted, it was a i,'reat failure. Who
wius set to enfoi'ce the law, did ollicials attempt to enforce it? Yes, a laij;e stall' of
otlifials.
.■5!)5IO. What was the dillieult\ in the way of ds enforcement .' I think tlie(M(li-
culty was this: 1 do not suppose tiiat the ollicials themselves oi' the people helieved in
ihe law that they were appointed to enforce.
.■i!);")!]. AN'liat class of people aie they generally? I'lsiiernu'H and miners ; they are
the principal population ; and then there are the missionaries. 1 think they form a lar<;e
pcrcenta<;e.
■\di)i2 I )o you think the ollicials were really careful to carry out the law, did they
n^.ake an attempt to do so ? — Y^es, and they were constantly makin<; seizures.
.■l!)r)4."f. Were .'!") saloons open an<l <loin!j; a j,'ood l)i"^'ness? — -Yi's.
.'{l)54-l. |)oyou know, of your own kniiwledite, that they were sellini; rei,'ularly ? —
I cei'tainly do.
."i',)")!."). i)id the business as ca.r'.ed i<n liy ^l-") saloons lir.vea !)ad etlectoii the people?
You ask nu' a ipp'stioii that a case,,d \isitoi- could hardly answer. I could not Ljixc you
an answer to that (piestion.
.'5!t.")M). You will not say whether it would lia\(' heen het t<'r to have had the .">o
saloons closed .' — No, 1 could not answer that question.
•'51)r)47. Ha\'e you ohsei ved 1,'enerally what the eU'ecl of salimtis has been in a
coniUHinity wheiv they exist, whether the cH'ect is i,'ood ur had '. 1 do not know nuieh
about saloons.
.■5'.)r;.[,S. |i''rom your ol)ser\ation of a coiinnuuily like this, what woulu ymi say was
the efl'ect on the I'ommunity of having 70 or SO retail drinkinu place---, would it be i;(iod
oi' l)a(l .' -I snpjiose it is bad for those who maki' a bad use of them.
."{JtoMt. What do yon re^'ard as a bad use '. Those w ho ;,'o there too often and drink
too much.
;?•,).").")( I. Is there a standard liy which the matter can be closely delined, as to wIimI
is too nuicli and wiial too often f l]\ery man has to ileeiile for himself.
.■i!t.").")l. 'i'hen you think a man should be a law to iiimself .' Yes.
'?!t"toL'. Would it lie well to linut the nuMil)er of licensed places more than the
number is lindted at the present time ' The I'etail ~-ale of li(|u<)r is a matter to which
r have not jjiven any attention.
."iDOoik I)o you thiid< it is well to restrict them as to hours anil e\crythin^' of that
kind?-- I am st'-ouLtly of the opiMi<in that it is not wise to enact ;i law thai ■ 's hard or
ditlicult to I'nforce. 1 think it weakens the cause of justice \ eiy much t<' Ii.inc a law-
enacted which it is impossible to enforce.
3iir).')l. So you would not h,-,\i'llie lii|Uor I rallic |)ract iially reslrii:e^; because it
wotdil l)e ditlicidt to enforce the rest I'ictions ' I du not uixc a positise opinion on that
point, but i simiily state what I know.
.'{'.) 5 ")."). You say }ou hav not ol)st>rved the retail trade pari icularly .' No.
;i!ir).")(!. Yoiii' cor.ipany are ini|>orters ? Yes.
,'{l)r).")7. Ila\c ycu thou;;ht of this ))oint, whether the importing; trade has ,-iny rela
tion to the retail trade t It is the relation of seller to |)Ui-chaser, 1 suppose.
,'')!),")r)S, Y. 'I liave expressed the opinion that prohibition c.idd not be enforced
here: why not f liecause I do not think the majority, orexcn a cunsideiable nunoriiv,
would i)e in favt)ur of it.
.'$9r)i)i), Huppu."iiig u majority wnrked in fa\our of ]iroliibilion, could it then Ik;
fairly W(>ll enforced ? -No, not if a minority of considerable proporlion was oppised
to it'.
491
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
'It
¥\ '
39560. Could it l*e enforced it' tlicrf \v;is a majority of three to one in favour of it ?
— No ; I do not tliink so. I think if tiie minority amounti'd to onc-fourtii it could not
be enforced.
tiOaGl. la your objection to prohil)ition an objection to the principle, or because
you think it impracticable? -I think it would be Ix'tter to get at the facts.
39562. Then you will not express an ojiinion .' — 1 do not care to say much a))Out it.
39563. This may be a (juestion of fact, is the trade of the company, as managed
by yourself in Yictoriii, increasing or not ; 1 refer to the licjuor trade .'— 1 do not tiiink
it is inci'easing in the same ration as the poj)ul.ition.
39564. .|)o you think that the licpior habits of the peojile are decreasing ? — Yes.
395G5. To what do you attribute that decrease .' I tiiink \'ery j)robai)ly to the
a\erage earnings of the people being not so large as they weic yeai's ago, and ai.so to
the fact that the peoph; are rising higher socially, and there is less exccssivi' d/inking
going on.
39566. You think that as the peo))le rise higher socially, they drink less .' T think
the average drinking is less.
39567. If there is a steady diminution in the drinking consumption liy the people,
i^rthat an indication that they are improving socially .'—1 do not know how far that
argument woidd work, but I certaiidy ihink that if the peo|)le are sjiending a large pro-
portion of their earnings on licpior there must be excess.
.''i9568. Have you noticed as a business man that the li(pior trartic has an effect either
injuriously or beneficially upon other branches of business ? 1 ha\e nevt-r noticed that
it was injurious to other branches.
39569. Have you noticed that it was beneticial? — No, but I have notii'cd that any
]>ros])erity throughout the country made the licpior trade better.
39570. I la\e you noticed any cas»' in wiiicii the li(pioi' trade was oppi)sed to the
prosperity of other branches of liiisiness? — No.
39571. lla\e you noticed that l)usiuess men liave gone to pieces because of the
liquor trade and hal)it ? — It goes without saying that men in all l)ranches of life who
drink to excess go to pieces.
39572. Hav(> you noticed whether there is a tendency on the part of those who
drink moderately to til ink to excess in any percentage of cases.'--! have not studied
tiiat subject.
Bi/ Jiid(ji' McDonald :
39573. Take the people who use into.xicating li>pioi's as beverages : is the percent
age of such persons who drink to excess large oi' small ? — T should tiiink it was sniiill,
certainly of those who come under my own personal observation.
39574. You have spoken in legartl to Alaska. Do you know the modes by which
suiuggling was carried on there? — A gicat ileal of li(|Uor is smuggled by steamers. The
price is very high and those; who cariy on the trade successfully make lai'ge profits some
times and large fortunes.
39575. How is it carried on ? — Tiie liejiior u'oes on sU)0]is, schooniMsand small boats,
also'on the steamers, in spite of the ])recautions of the otllcers.
;>9576. Is the lii|uor smuggled in in its original j)ackages ? — I do not think so; it
is generally concealed. There are a number of ways in which liipior can be brought in.
and to which my attention has been called. It is taken in by some barrels (jwned
prol)ably by some deck-hand and near some town or village he has a customer for the
liipior. He keeps watch until dark and then throws the bai'i'cls overl)oaril taking care to
leave suthcient vactniui in the cask to ensure its lloating. Of course, there is a man
ready to take it oft'. There are all .sorts of tlevices resorted to. I liav e known of liquor
going from here all the way uj) to Juneau on an open sloop.
■'59577. What is the distance '. \ sujipose 1,01)0 miles.
3957s. The water connuunication is the oidy way of conimmiicating with thai
territory, 1 suppose? It is the only one.
39579. There is nothing on the other side ?- No.
RouKiiT H. Hall.
492
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
KOBEUT II. HALI. iccall..l.
.'{!)r),SO. [ ?losii'c to 11(1(1 to my stiitfiiient that two or tlii'ec; y(>aiN ago tlic (Governor
ot" Alaska ([ am not siii(! of the exact date) t'clt that it was so ditlicult to deal with
the li([Uoi- ti-artic, that he uiulei-took to assume the respnnsilnlity of granting temporary
licenses to xcndors of li(|iior, while he |iro|)osed to make such i-epresentation to Congress
as would make the license system permanent. Tlie lii|Uor dealers in Alaska iield a
me(!ting to discuss the matter, and tJKMcsult of their dcliherations was, that tliey de-
cided that so far as they were concerned, they would not accept temporary licenses
or any other licenses, on the ground that the ]i(]Uor trad(.' was more j)r()tital)le under pro
hihition than it would Ik; to them under license.
/>•// AVc. Dr. MrLwd:
.■M)i">8l. What is your helief alxmt it .' — I lielievi that the contention uf the liipiur
men was ([uite correct.
.■5!t.")S'_'. You arctic niannger of the wlioloale Kusiness, and you believe the li([Uor
business is more pidtital-le without licen.ses of any kind than with it?--T do not know
h(^w il would work witii us, hut it is certjiinly more ]irotit,diic witlioiil license tlian wit h it.
.'i'.).")S.'i. i )o you conclude in \iew of the ^t.itcmciit you ha\-e made, that the men in
the li(pior liusiness in Alaska are disreputable men ' I >lioul(l think they wci(( not so
loyal as they should be.
;?',».")S4. Wiiat do you mean by that? — Loyal subjects ought to be able to woik
under the la\\s of the country in wiiich they are living.
.■i9.")S."i. 1 )o you know of any other trade that would resort to tiic same tiiim.' ? — T
have never heard of anything similar.
;5!)r)8(). I )o you regard that sort of thing as the outcome of the li(iiior trade .' - 1
have never l)een in a ])rohibitory country except Alaska, so [ cannot speak in rtigard to
that matter.
.'{i)5,^7. Are W(; to understand t h.ii the men in .\la>ka \iolating the law were an
exceedingly lawl(!ss class of men? They were certainly lawless so far a^ the licpiof
tralHc was concerned.
•"{OnSS. They preferred to be lawless men rather than stilimit t lelaw .' riie pro-
hibition in Alaska is faxourable to law lcs>ines> : that is to say, that law less ni'ii will tind
more eiicouiagenient under prohibit ion than under license.
.'1!)."S'.). Is jirohibition favourable to lawlessness or is drunkenness a jiart of lau less-
ness .' Prohibition to my mind is the product of lawlessness.
.■t9.")!tO. Why ! It certaiidy allbrds them an opportunity to be lawless.
."p'.)")!U. Is that prohibition enforced or prohibition disregarch.'d ?— It is prohibition
which otlicials are not able to enforce.
.'$!ri92. Why unable to enforce \ Is it iiecause of the lawless character of the men
engaged in the trade' It is Ijecause they haxc not got the support of the ]ieo|i|e.
.'i!).")l).'5. ( )f what people? — < )f the great majority of the i)opulation.
:V,I:-)!)I. Tn Alaska?- -Yes.
."{i)")!!."). The population of Abe^ka is made up uciierally of that class uf jicople ; are
thev such people as live in X'iitoria for the most part? — Peo|ile in the (lil!'ercnt yrades
of life are to a certain extent >imilar. There are of course lawyers, doctors, storekeepers,
and merchants. f do not know that the jjroiiortion of labourers is smaller or the per-
centage of th(! higher classes laiger than here.
.'ill.liKl, Is the condition of the pojiulalion in .\laska similar to the condition of the
po])ulatioii in older and longer orgaiu/ed conimunitics. or is it the same ius here? — In
other ri^spects the people of Alaska ar(^ very law-abiding.
.39.'")!)7. Except with regard to the drink tratlic? -Yes. ]My ex[)erience hiis led
mo to l)eli(>ve that if |)rohil)ition was attempted anywhere else it would he attended
with similar results.
liij JikIijp. Mr Donald :
.'i',l.")!)t!. Take another state of things. You have a great many men who go from
here to Alaska aiifl beyoml, looking for seals \ — Yes.
403
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
39o91). If those people had to make choice between sealing fur their own i)leasure
or coininj,' under a system of catching seals during certain hours of the days and on
certain terms and had to pay a licc^nse fee, which system do you think tlmy would
prefer? — I think they would prefer to seal as they pleased.
39600. Of coui'se, sealers ai'e n<jt in that position. I simply put it as a suppositi-
tious case. Do you know of any other busiru.'ss that is in the same position with legard
to regulations ? -There is none.
.■?9601. Are you al)le to find any parallel cases so as to he able to draw a comparison
between the action of the people in Alaska and other people /—There is no otlier trade
similar, although trades get along very satisfactory and so does the liquor trade if the
peopl(! are satisfied with it as it is.
39602. The United States revenue is hardly satisfied ? — That proves to be the case.
liij Rev. Dr. McLeoil :
39603. Can you tell us, from your own observation and exjx'rience, why the liiiuoi'
trade has regulations and restrictions to which no other trade is asked to submit ? — i
suppose the law givers of the countrj' think they ai'e doing what is best for the weal of
the country, in restricting the trade and licensing it.
39004. Is it because the liquor trade is pi'oductive of results which are bad 1 — I do
not know wliether it is .so or not, but we nmst aduiit that in some instances the use of
it is bad. T should not say that the trade is so.
39005. Is the trade resjHmsible in any degi-ee for those results? — That is a question
that had better be answereil by some one on the Licensing Hoard or who has had to do
with the issuing of licenses.
39606. I thought that you being in the trade might have observed that. — I am
merely in the trade as a wholesaler, and I do not come directly into contact with the
retailer.
39607. You sell to tlie retailer? — The wholesalei' naturally sells to the retailer.
39608. And his relations are with the retail trade, and with them only? — In that
way only.
SiH ^MATTHEW BAILLIE BEGBIE, of Viclnria, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
Jii/ Judge Mv Donald :
39609. I believe you are Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of British Columbia '.
^Yes.
39010. How long have you held that position ? I'^ir l'O years. Sinei^ the time of
Confederation, 1 have been Cliief Justice. Before that time T was in\\\ aJudg*'. There
was no Chief Justie(!, and no puisne Judges.
39011. Did you come original!}' to this country from England? — T came to this
province when it was a Crown cok>ny, as regards the maiidand. The Island was a
separate Crown colony up to about 1(S56.
39612. Then you came here before the union of the two .sections? — Yes. I went
to the mainlantl. ^Ir. Cameron was Chief Justice here, and I was a Judge on the
mainland.
."'.961 3. I suppose this province has always been under a license systen), .so far as the
sale of iicpior is concerned, since you came here? — ^Yes, 1 think so.
39614. Have you had any experience in a country where there was a prohibitory
law in force ? -Yes.
.3901o. Whei-e ? — In the North-west Territories not long ago.
39610. How long were you there? — -Two days, and I never was so pestered in
my life.
HouKHT H. Hall.
494 '
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
■'i'Jt)17. Wliy / — IJecause T luitf raw spirits inyscli, and ev<-ryliiiily was postering; me
to take what they called whisky. They seemed to think it was the duly of a man ti)
drink all the whisky he could, and everyl)<)dy had it.
MitOlS. l)id you take any of it? T tried onee or twice to take it, l)ut it was
.'ibominahle stuff. My t'riends treated me with the utmost kindntiss and wvio most
hospitable. There intentions were of tlie kindliest. I was like Gulliver when in
Brol)diii<(naif where tlie people were so exceedingly hospitable that they jjitcli-forked
tid-l)its from their own mouths into the mouth of poor (Jullivei'.
•■590 l!t. In what section of the North-west Territories were you ? — I went on to
('ali.cary and on the way I stopped at Donald. It was in ISS"). At that time I consideied
l)onald to be pai't of the North-west Territories and subject to the Dominion prohibitory
law. The prohibition of the sale of liquor extended all over the railway belt, which
projected far into British Columbia, at that time even t(^ Seymour Narrows. 1 beliexe
the sale of li(|uor was pr(jhil)ited from that point to Revelstoke ami J)onald, all the way
for a distance of 2U miles on each side.
■■?!)G20. Can vou speak in regard to the sale of liquor at Donald and Revelstoke ?—
Yes.
.'iHd'-'l. Was thei'e sale of liquor then>.? — No doubt. T was on ciivuit, and F was
trc.'itcd to all the liquoi' 1 wanted, gratis.
•VJG'2'2. Did you see any ales or light wines in that Teiritorv ? — I took some clai'et
myself.
.^OfiL'S. Did you take that with you I — Yes, for my own use.
.'59G24. Did you see any one else have it there ? — No.
•■<962r). I will I'ead you a paragraph fram a Ixiok recently iiublishetl. It is wi-ittiMi
by Warbui'ton Pike on "The l>ari-en (ii'ounds of Northern Canada.'' He refers to the
territory away north of Calgai'y, iiiui says :
At tiu' present time tlie |»r()liil)iticiii Act uriier-s tliiit even the white iiiiiii of the Nnitli-west 'reni-
lories iiiiust lie lemjiei'iite, theieliy eiiiisiiis,' whisky tci lie |)<i(ir iuul l)iiil. liiit plentiful witlial. It is
.-iii'])iising how siuh :i law exists in n eountiy where the white nuii not only want iliink liiit ilo iliiiik
in open delianee of tlie eomniiinds of ii piiteiiial (iovennnent.
J)uring the two days you were there, do you thiidc that would describe the state of
things ? — Yes.
39';2r). Take a country such as the North-west Territories and a country under
similar conditions as to rivers, <fcc. In one country there is a license law and in the
cither prohibition : to which of those two countries would emigrants come, seeking homes .'
- -They would rather come to a coinitry where they could live as they were accustomed
to live. But it must be remendjered that there is one cliuss of ))eople who should be
restricted from drinking, and that is the Indians. If the emigrants and peoi)le generally
coming to this country knew that the Indians were to have unlimited access to li(|Uor,
they would, of course, thiidc it very dangerous to settle here.
.ilMiliT. But the Indians are prohibited from obtaining li(iuor, 1 believe ? --Yes,
here : but up in Alaska they get a good deal ; they manufacture it. When I went there
I took a small stock of wine with me, ami ran short, aiul of course I cindd not get any
there, I supposed. It was at Fort Wrangell, and the peoph; said that 1 could get as
niiicli lii|Uor as I wanted at .■-=•") a bottle, good brandy ii .irked '■ Martel." 1 asked whetn^
1 cou'd get it, and they said thai the Indians would sell me as much as 1 wantetl. The
Indiniis had plenty of liquor, and it was from them I got it.
{'.Kj'JS, Were they acting as agents for the white men f I could not say.
.■^OG-i'.). You got the liquor, at all events I- Yes.
.'iilGlW. What (iualit\- was it?- It was as good as you could get in N'icloria. That
was in .Maska, where there is prohibiti(jn.
.'lOO.'U, In the North-west Territories theie was what was intended to lie a total
[irohibitory law, although there was a permit .system, under which the l.,ieutenant-
( !o\-eriior could grant permits. With that law there existed a large force of ]\lounted
I'oliee to enforce it, and they exercised the right of domicilary and personal setirch.
From your knowledge of Mritish Columbia, do you believe the people would be favourable
lo such an enactment as that?-— I think not. It would lead to more e\ils than the
consunqjtion of litiuor.
495
I i
Liquor Tnittic — Hritisli Columbia.
iJi-
;{yG32. rroiii your knowledge of the L'ounti'y, wliiil would be the eti'ect on ti-avel
wlien it was leaniofl l)v tlie tourists tliat on ai'riviii"; tliey and tlieir baj^mitfe woultl be
suliit'Ctcd to a tlioi'ou;;li seafcli ! Oi course tliev would not like it at al
;5'.Mi:i.S. We have it in evideiiee tliat people in the Pullman ears
searched f
niuor.
Had you any experi(;nc(^ of tiiat kind when y
ou wen
t tl
WAV
N(
or
I went
ar
throui^h in iSSo, and at that time the railway was hardly iiinnini,' ; it oidy fan as f
as Donald, with a through train once a week to ('algai'V. I went tiitire on a consti'Uction
train, and of course the olHceis did not seafeli us.
.■5!tti:i4. As a jurist, what, in your opinion, is the effect on the ])ul)iic conscience of
iiir a law on the statute-book that is constantly and tiagfantly and iiersistent ly
laxniii a law on
violated .'—F think it has a ^■e^y iiad effect.
.■59635. Do you know anything of the working of the license law in IJritish t'olumbia
-i do not know very
■li al
)OUt It.
;?0<i-'Ui. Take the coniinunit\' as vou know it; do vou tind it law abidi
and
as comjiared with other communities ! — Y'es, it is very law-abiding. I lunc had only
one experience of a prohibitory law, in the North-west Terr'itories : but, in the course
of my life, I have l)(>en in countries where although they did not have a prohibitory
law, there was total abstinence on religious grounds. In Turkey, esju'cially in C'onstan-
finoj)le, you can not get a drink, although it is a city of 700, 000, and in Stamboul, on
the west side of t\w Oolden Horn, you cannot get a stronger drink than sherbet. I'ut
it is a most dangerous popidatioii at night and a very t-riminal one.
.31t(i.S7. Supposing a pi'ohibitory law were passed, a law prohibiting the manufacture,
importation and sale of jdcoholic licpiors for b(>verage purposes, wcudd you deem it right
that brewers and distillers should be comiiensated for loss of jilant and machinery which
they use in their busint^ss .' That is a (|Uestion of consi'ience,
.'VJd.'JiS. Perha])s you have not consideivd it? I have often considered the point. 1
)t k
do iu)t know e.Kactly liow to make up my nnnd, because it is ,i matter ot coiiscienct
I, beo
39030. What is urged is this, that bv de.'artmental regulati
oils orewers and
distilh-rs ha\c been compelled to put in certain machinery, and ha\e been from lime to
time conipelled to change their machinery, and moreox i r that <listillers are re(|uir(Hl to
keep their lii|Uoi' in stock for two years for rc'ctitication purposes : and under those
circumstances it is urged that, in tlii^ event of the enactment of a general prohibitory
law, brewers and distillers should be comjxMisated? — I should think in justice that
compensation sliouu
monev ill the business.
1 be gi\
tl:
em liecau
se thev have been
(^iicoura!'e(
1 t.
I'll
t th
3'J()I0. Ha\(' vou considered in coniu'ction with this matter, whether it would b:
•lit
o enciiiira'ie the consuin
abolishing the use of spii'it.s ? --The [leople here hav(> a
all events, for stioiiger drinks than beer and wine. I
beliexe T take three glasses of spirits in a year.
ij)tioii of light wines and ales, with a view to giaduallv
natural taste for whiskv, ai
ul
'fer I
)eer ami wine,
I
at
not
coinin
i!)()-n. Taking youi' e.\|)erieiice as a .Iiidge, has ,iny large pid]iorlion of the case^
g bef
lire vou
for trial been directly or indirectly tr/iceable to drink
— 1 think xcrv few ca.ses have lieen directly attributable to drink, but T
has often been the cause of crime.
is a oe\-era<{e
.'iyti-lL'. So, indirectlv, otlences have 1 n committed
That
is in
y "1
.'iOlil-"). Taking the people of liritish Columbia as you know them and the cities as
■iUp
union.
I th
([uor
vou know them, can vou sav what is the proportion ot those using intoxicating liouoi
who use them to excess.
Is th
10 pro])ortioii large or small, on the whole
;
I am afr
11(1
that a great many ])eop1e us(^ more than is needed for them, but I do not believe tiiey
take it to excess. I think if there is one drunken man, tl
lere is one too ma
ilac
1 hat<
drunl'
ny in ai
l<eii man.
39()ll. Takin-' 100 or -JOO men who use ale.
ir whiskv f'
would the projiortioii of those who use them to exceiss be large
or i leverage
or small ?
jiiirposes.
\ tl'.ink
.small.
390 b"). ||a\e vou found since v<
iiie to the count-y, that there has been a (
lam.
ill the social customs of the [ ]ile in regard to drinking, and tiial the habit of drinking
is diniinishin<; as a social custom !-i think it has diiiiinished.
SiH Matthkw I5aii,i.ii: lii'.nniiv
496
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(
I
would tir
^radiiiillv
ami, ai
do not
un atraiii
lt'\C tllt'V
iV in an\
11 t'liali!.'!'
diiiikin''
By Kev. Dr. McLeud :
.'l!(64<>. To what do you attribute the diminution ?— The |i(M>]ilt' an> not so well off.
T mean the greater part of the drunkenness I have seen has hecn amongst inincM'S. The
mines are not nearly as lucrative now as they wei'e formerly. The ordinary wages of
miners in the early days were from !?S to §16 and even $20 a da)'. When an unedu-
cated man receives that money he does not know what to do with it except to get drunk.
.'5y647. Have you noticecl that educated men ever do so? —I know some of my pei'-
.sonal friends who drink to e.xcess.
39l)4S. Is the percentage of uneducated men who drink to excess larger than tiie
percentage of those educated '? — Yes, very nmch larger.
39()4!). r am speaking of the proportion of i>eopie educated and uneducated ? — Of
course it depends on what you call educated.
.■J'J().")0. There is the phrase "excess " which w(? constantly hear ; it seems to be a
rather variable term? -So it is.
.■{'J().")l. Will you state what is your definition of excess in drinking? --When an
Irishman was asked that question, he said that he did not consider any man was drunk
to excess until he was lying on his back ; if he was sitting on th(i jiavemctit and ai)le to
call a cab he could not be said to l)e drunk. But my opinion is that if a man is not
walking steadily h<' has taken too nuich. However, what is excess to one man is not to
another. I know the manager of a bank, I will not give his name, who was a very sharp
man in business, and he was able to sit all night drinking brandy or whiskv. He would
perhaps, drink two or three bottles of whisky and tie a wet towel around his head, and
in the eai'ly morning he would go to business. That is what very few men can do. He
drank to excess, although he could stand it ; but it told on him in the end. After a few-
years he went to the dogs.
396r)2. So there is excessive drinking which docs not show itself on a man in th(^
streets'! — Yes.
39(>53. Do you think th(>re ai'e a large immber of ju'ople who drink to excess,
althougii it may not be apparent to the public at the time ? -No, I do not think there is.
I do not think there are many men who injure their constitutiims by drinking. There
are some poor fellows no doul)t.
396")4. You have spoken in regard to your experience in the North-west Terri-
toric*. Did you see many people during tlie two days you were there?- -Yes.
396i)5. Youi' own frii>nds? — Not only my own tViends, there was a whole regiment
there. It was th ; year of the rebellion and there was a regiment stationed at Calgary.
Besides, I was holding assize and there were lots of people from He\elstoke and Donald
and other places. As I was a .fudge, I was handed li(|uor gratis.
396.")(). Yf)u have said that everybody had whisky. T wondered ^vhether they were
your own personal friends who induced you to take some of it ? -I also met the captain
of the Mounted Police and some other othcers, and very good fellows they were.
39607. They had some li((Uor too?- Lots of it.
.39658. The Mounted Police W(>re supposed to be cliarged with the duty of prevent-
ing liquor being brought in. How did it liappen that the oHicers had so much li(|uor?
— -I do not know how they got it.
396.")9. Did it strike you as jH'culiar ♦hat those men who
witii the duty of enforcing the law sIiourI be tliemsei\es violati
stantly find that to be the case.
.39660. Is that a good state of things? — No, but it sljows
such a law.
.39661. Or the corroding intluencff of the whisky? — ^tt is perhaps the corroding
influence of the two, but mainly the corrotling influence of the law.
39662. If whisky were permitted to come in freely, would it have less corroding
influence? Certainly, for the peoph* would not then break the law.
39663. Would they l)e likely to drink if liquor was permitted to come in by law?
— They would drink whether the law pernntted them or not; they would obtain liiiuor
in anv case.
were especially charged
ig the law? — You con-
.c corroding influence of
497
21—32**
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
slii
lli^
.'}!•()(■) 1. 1)1(1 you (il)sci'V(' wlictlici' the li(|U<ir wliicli wiis tlit'rc at tliat time, was tlicn-
hy pci'iiiit (ir l)y jii't)liil)iti()u ,' -It -vas tlu'i'c subject to pi'diihitioii, althougli its proscncc
was always {H'ctfiidcd to be kept dark. A tViciul of mine, and lu- was in my own walk
of life, said to iiic, "Couif here." He took nu' lii'liind a door, and product'd a bottlr of
whisky.
■■i!t(i().">. Do you know wht'tlitT lie ol)taint'd tliat li(|Uor by the ^H-rniit of ihf Lifulc
iiunt (!o\('iiioi-, or did he sniuj;f{!(' it in .' — I did not iniiuirc.
3'JG(H1. You said something,' about jL;t)in<; thei'e and the jieoplo handing you liquor
gratis. Why was tiiat .' — The .luciges have a veiy bad re|)Utation in this pait of the world.
.'lS)<it')7. Foi' what f — lAn- Ijeiiii; free liveis.
■'!lM>(iS. What struek nie as strange is that you said that as you were a Judge, the\
handed you lii|Uor gratis. I wonderecl what was liehind all that in your mind.' — They
wished to ticat me witii all the coui'te.sy po.ssible, 1 have nodoulit.
.■!!•(■)(')!•. So they gave you illicit li(|Uoi'?-- Yes, they. gave it as a mark of couftesy
and liospitality. In fact they knew I eould not buy it here, so it was given to me gratis.
.'(•Hull. Is that a <'orrei't way of doing it? You wei'e the head of the judiciai-y, and
the peopl(> with whom you came in contact, in oi'der to show hospitality to you, treated
you with an abundance of illicit whisky in violation of the law ? — Hecollect wlitm I was
at Calgary T was there as a pri\ate gentleman, for it was far beyond my jurisdiction.
■'5'.l()71. You ha\(' heard the ([notation read from the Ixjok of a gentleman who
travelled in the noi'thern i-ountry, in which he said }irohibition causes whisky to be
]ileiitiful. Do you think ]ii'ohiliition causes whisky to be plentiful ? — I would not put it as
strongly as that. I do not think that j)rohibition very much diminishe che(|uantitv, liut
increases it.
Hi/ .tiidiji MrDiiiKilil :
[VMu'l. The writer did not say that prohibition made it ])lentiful. He said "There-
by causing li(|Uor to be bad, l>ut plentifid withal." Have you read the book? 1'iie
writer is well knowii in Uritisli Colund)ia.
Hif Ji', r. Dr. McLrud :
39t)7-'5. In N'ictoria and throughout the island, I pi'csume, li(iuor is freely obtaineil
under liciMise? — Yes, quite so.
;{!)t)74. Speakitig about emigrants coming to this country and the ([uestion whether
if they knew prohibition was in force here, they would be as likely to settle as if ther(>
was no prohibition, you have said that the conclusion you camt^towas, that they would
settle in ;iny counti-y where the habits and customs were most like those at home f — ^'e^.
.'iytM-"). Can you concei\e of any jieople who im'ght prefer to go into a region where
there was prohibition ? -Y'es. I can conceive of a number of prohibitionists getting
together.
.■!!t()7ii. Can you conceive of otliers than jirohiliitionists settling in a country were
there was i>rohiliition .' -I myself, going into a strange town, instead of going into a
saloon and passing tlie night there, go to i tem|)erance hotel, because T like aquiet niglit.
.'59(577. Then you think the temperance hott'l more (juiet than the hotid witli a bar '
— Y'es, and more favourable tor sleeping.
;iy()7S. Is it your experience that the liquor trallic as cai'ried on in bar-rooms, is an
interference with quiet and sleep '.' Yes, with sleej). AN'hen nien get together, tliey
begin to talk, and of course they do this in the bar rtH)m. If I want to sleop I prefer
the temperance hotel, for this night only.
;{i)()79. Is it your observation that the li(|Uor trathc, iis carried on in bar-rooms, is
an interference with a person's (|uiet Mud an interference with the social lite, moral life
and bu'^iness life of the community? — No, 1 do not think so.
;{9t>S(). Is the li(|Uor traile, as carried on, productive of crime in any degree .' I
luave already said that li(im)r cannot lie fairly said to be productive of crime, but that
drinking is very often the occasion on which crime takes place. If liquor had been absent,
there would not have been the occasion. A great many crimes occur in what might be
called a drunken row ; but when a man is going to commit a burglary he takes care to
be sober.
8iR Matthew Bailliu Bkguik.
498
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
.■li)t'i,sl. Ildvp villi oltst'i'vi'il that tlin ot'diimry iniiii wlicii lio bi';;ins to drink Ijpcoiin's
ri'i^iilfirly filiicatixl to tlic drink lialiit ( — I liavo never oWservcd tliiit one way or the
oilier ill rej^ard to tlie drink liahit. I have often observed tliat wli(>n an uneducated man
gets a sum ot' money, tlie only tliini,' he appears able to di> is to ifo and i;et drunk.
.'tOllSi*. It' a biiru'lar kec-ps suiter t'or business |)iirposos, do you think it would be
well t'or other men to keep sobei' tor l)iisincss pui-poses .'-- 1 am eertain it would.
.'<!)(■)?<.'(. You have spoken ot' youi" experience in Alaska, when you said itwasaj^reat
nuisance to be unal)ie to gel liipior, and some persons told you wh(>re you could obtain
it?— That was after two weeks' enforced abstinence.
•'i!MiSl. Krom which are there greater e\il results: the drink trallic, as carried on,
or inability to get litpior occasionally?-- I should say, on tht^ whole, the inability to get
liipHir. The drink trade is not a great (tU'ence if you keep out of the way of it.
il'.M'iS."). Does it place itself in the way of peoph^ who otherwise would keep out of
the way of it ? - No, f think you can generally keej) out of its way.
.'i!l()S(i. Speaking of the Turks, you said that you could not get any lic|uor iiiTui'koy,
excpjit a certain kind. Do you believe that if the Turkish (lovernmenl pro\ ided facili-
ties for drinking freely, the Turks would tliereb\- become a good and ordcrlv peo])|e .' — -
No, I ilo not think so. It is not in the nature of the people. Hut the supci'ior races of
men are greatly given to liipior.
.'MHIST. You think that is the charactei'i.stie of a superior race C)f men .' Yes ; they
are apt to do it to excess.
.")!M)S8. Are the superior nieti in this country the men who get. drunk ? - -The infe-
rior races of men do not drink. Jlowexer, it is a ipiestion of constitution. Y'ou take the
African from Africa ■ he is tpiite as fond of rum as Pitt was. As a rule, yoii will find
the class of men who keep .sober an inferior race. T would be sorry to see men. white
men. rediu'cd to the level of Miiuloos.
;5'.l()Sit. Do you think if the people of this country abstained from linuor. tiiey would
be reduced to the level of Hindoos .' No. I think the people l)elonging to tiie white
race would not submit to be prohiiiited obtaining licpior, for they would have it.
.SOCiDO. Ts it because they are the superior racc^ that they will get it ? Take men in
this country who do not drink : are they inferior to men w ho do drink, intellectually or
[ihysically ? I should think it a sign of inferiority.
;$l)()i)l. Intellectually, physically or morally f I should consider it a maik of infe-
riority if a man cannot drink, or does not driidv, and if he will not drink. He might
abstain from religious motives or for the sake of example. These are high and good
motives, but for a man to abstain simply because his constitution cannot stand ft. that is
a mark of distinct inferiority.
.'iiXiOJ. Take the people of N'ictoria, men who drink and men who do nut Iriiik.
Are the men who do not tlrink inferior to the men who do drink ! — I have vei-y little
acipiaintanci' with men who do not drink. T associate with men who drink. If a man
takes a pint of claret a day, I consider hedrinks.
;ilMi!t,']. Is he morally superior to the man who does not drink? I think he is
superior morally, intellectually and ])hysically.
.'iilti'.tt. Y'^ou think he is a stronger and better man '. A stronger ;iiul better man,
who is carrying out the law of the JJible.
.'ilXli)"). Would you, in the interi'st of the country, physically, intellectually and
morally, ha\e the liquor trader I'ai'iied on freely without let or hindrance? ^No ; 1 do
not think it should be carried on without let or hiiidra U!e.
.■il)()!)t). Why have any restrictions/ Because I believe there should be some restric-
tions on the ti'ade. The wi.sdom of mankind has placed restrictions on it. In all coun-
tries restrictions have been placed on the li(|uor trade.
.'V.H)',(7. Can you say why that is? -That is a question entirely for the legislators
to say : but I siijipose one reason would be that all ])laces where peo[ile assiMiibli' under
circumstances should be regulated, aiu therefore you find all placiw of assembly regu-
lated by law. Places of public gatherings, theatres and all establishments whert^ liipior
is sold are regulated by law.
H!)698. Does this apply to any other trade except the liquor trade ? -I do not know
of othei' trades being regulated in exactlv the same way, except, perhaps, theatres.
499
21— 32i**
■ I
ill
liiquor Traffic — IJritish Columbia.
They arc not i'ej;uliitecl, ho\vev«'r, iMiciiuse tliey <(irry mi tho tnule, but liccause tlicy ain
places of resort and places of nieetinjj;. This jirinciple of ref^ulation ap(>lics not only to
tlie lii|uor tratlic, but to all plaoes of public nicctin;,'.
.S!it')i)'J. Do you think if those |)laccs were not re<;ulate(l, they would prfnlucc a com-
bination of disordei-s that would be disastrous to the ccjniniunity f -Just tin? same as
uieetin;;s in Trafalfjar .S(|uare : they are all reij;ulatcd and controlled by the police.
;{!)700. Would the meeting's in Trafalj;ar .S(|uare re(|uire to be re^julated, except for
the fact that the liquor trade is a larj^e factor'/ — The liijuor trade has nothing' to do with
political meetings held in Trafalj^ur JStpiare. 1 do not see the connection of vour ((ues-
tion.
39701. Would not the; larger propoitiftn of the men be under the influence of
liquor? — Certainly not. Speaking of jirohibition? — T desire to say that this does not
only iipply to Trafalgar Sijuare. There was a similar instance at Chelsea, whei-e the
jieojile started to preach, and that of course had to be I'cgulatcd by law. The Salva-
tionists, in the same way, should be ct)ntrolled by law.
'•VJ102. Is it the same as regards bar-rooms? — I believe they are a most mural and
excellent set of people, but they go a1)out beating their big drums and singing like a lot
of drunken Siwashes, and they should be controlled.
;iy70l5. Do you think measures to control them should be adopted in a like manner
to the measures ado]3ted towards the liquor trade? 1 do not know what means might
be adoptetl to prevent the nuisance and annoyance, for it might rather be dignifying
them by giving them too much prominence. I do not know that anyone is afraid of the
Salvationists, but j)eople find them to bo a nuisance.
.'5970*. Are pei)[)le afraid (jf the litpior trade? — Some people appear t:> be.
3970"). Is it because a great many people are afraid of the li<pior trade that regu-
Lations and restrictions are placed upon it ? — No, I do not think so. AV'hen you take an
English-speaking people and you find that a certain number are afraid of the trade,
lam led to imagine that many people are afraid, alth(»ugh 1 do not think that any one is
really afraid of the trade itself.
.■{970(). Would you understand the fact that a great many regulations and restric-
tions are placed on the liquor trade to indicate that tli" majority of the people are in
favour of that kind of regulation ? — I take it that the will of the majority of the people
is expressed on the statute-book.
39707. Do you thiuk it was the public will that framed the law ? — No.
39708. Do you consider that that would be done by the representatives in the
Legislature ? — Yes.
39709. So the public will find its opinion represented in tlu^ Legislature, and the
Legislaturt^ will frame the enactments. Do you think if a prohibitory law were enacted,
it would be a worse Act? — I do not believe it would be worse, but I do not think you
could get it.
39710. Is your objection to a prohibitory law based on principle, or what you
regard as the impracticability of prohibition ? — On both grounds. T think it would be
inexpedient if it were possible, and it is impossible if it were expedient.
39711. Tf three-fourths of the people said they wanted prohibition, a law to ]n-i>-
hibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverage purposes,
do you think it would be right to enact such a law? — If the sky were to fall we would
catch plenty of larks, and they would be very cheap.
39712. That is not an answer to the question ? — I beg your pardon. Your state-
ment is as practicable as my supposition that the sky might fall. You said that pro-
vided three-fourths of the people were to desire a general prohibitory law. I do not
think that it is at all possible.
39713. I am not a lawyer, but reading the law as enacted, I have learned this :
That not so many years ago there was little or no regulation or restriction placed on the
liquor trade, and now everywhere there are restrictions placed around that trade. Do
these increased restrictions express the popular sentiment ; do you so explain them ? —
All highly educated, legitimate entiment favoured it. I object to the word restriction,
Sir Matthew Baillie Regbie.
500
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I would nillior us(> tlif woi-d regulation, lieoausc tlici'e is irally no ivstriction on tiie
quantity that may be sold. .
3!i711. Froui youi-cxptirioncc as a .Indict! and oli.scrsation as a eiti/cn, can you say
whetluM' the license law, as it stands to-day, I'egulalcs the liiiiior trade ? — The lieenso
law to-day professes to regulate the ti'ade, and it should ho olieyed.
.'J'J71o. ft |)rofesseH and is intended to regulate the trade, hut as a matter ot' fact
does it regulat(! it? — I think it does, to a very great extent. I do not know t)t' any
cases where it does not I'cgulate the trade, except where the trailers sell licpior to
Siwaslies. These cases are unfortunate. l)Ut they appear to continue in spite of tiie law.
."V.tTlt). Do the men in tii(^ trade sell lic|unr to Siwaslies? — No, not the men in the
trade exactly.
31)717. Then what men sell? — That is rathci' a (|uestion for the Police .Magistrate.
They are generally a \eiy low class of men, who liuy liiiuor in order to sell it a^ain to
the Si washes.
3II718. Of course, as a Judge, you lielieve in the enforcement of the law ] — T think
.so. If there is a bad law enacted, the best way of getting it repealed is to carry it out
sti'ickly until it is repealed.
■'i',)71'.l. Do you bolie\e a law against an evil thing creates a strong jiuhlic senti-
ment against that e\il thing.' — I do not think I ever considered that proposition. tt
might strengthen public sentiment, and might at the same time raise an outcry against
it and weaken it.
.■(1)720. If a law against an e\il thing is to be abulished l»;eause of an outcry raised
against it, would you, as a . Fudge, more rigidly enfurce the law .'— T would, as a .Judge,
endeavour to enforce the law that was on the statute-book ; that is all I woidd be able
to do.
.39721. Do you believe law is an educator ? — It is an educator, but very nfteii it
educates by bad example. A batl law educates the people as much as a good law, in
some sense.
Jii/ Judge MuDonald :
39722. Is it not a fact that animosity is aroused against a prohibitory law, because
the people belicNC that th(( law is against a thing that is not an evil ? — Yes, that is what
I meant by saying that a bad la*^- evt-n educated the people as much as a gfiod law.
Thtn' believe a thing illegal if contrai'v to Statute, but it is not immoral. When a law
is pressed more and more against this, they are more and more educated to belie\f in
the immorality of the law.
.311723. In sj)eaking of the Xoi'th-west ^luunted Police, you of course referi'e(l to
the cillicers with whom you came in contact? — Yes, certainly, and I found them nice
gentleniaidy men.
31)724. I suppose you had nil intercourse with the privates .' — \o ; imt I iieveisaw
(uie of them undi.'r the inlluence of liqiKpr.
Bi/ Jiei: Dr. Mcb',„l:
31)72o. Did we understand you to say that theotlicers and men had li(|Uor in plenty ?
— They seemed to have, and were re|)orted tn have. They seemed to be a sober, superioi'
class of nu-n, superior inttdlectually, morally and jihysically to the nuMi who ne\er took
whisky.
31)726. Do you attribute that to the fact that they took li(|Uor? — No. You ai'o
attributing to me the cause instead of the eH'eet. I say that the su]ierior class of men
and nations, as I have observed them, are fond of liipior, and only inferior nations
al)stain from liijuor. Xot that there is any inferioi'ity liecause they abstain, but they
abstain because they are inferior. All the Anglo-Saxon nations art^ fond of liquor, and
they are, and I belong to one of them, considei-ed to be superior to the ordinary
races.
39727. Then the desire for liijuor is an indication of superioi-ity ? — I think so, cer-
tainly.
39728. Then abstinence from liquor is an indicat'on of inferiority? — I suppo.se .so.
501
m
w
HM-'
I fern .!i!S
Pi'.';
Ijl:
IS i'!
VmB'
li
Liquor Traflic — British ('olmnl)ia.
Jii/ Jiid;/e McDouidd :
3972!'. I HuppoHe«vou wiml us U> take tliiit iinswci- subject tn wind you Iiiim' sliitcil
bnforc, witli vdur pi'cvious oxplaniitiim ','— -Yt-s ; cvcii liiirlmrijiiis !ii'(! t'uiid of li(|uni'.
n,f liri'. Dr. MiLiixl:
.■t!»7-'tO. Wliiit iiliout tlic FiKlidiis iiiid Hiilt'-lirocds and tSiwasht's, wlioai'o vimt fund
of li(|U<>r : arc tlit-y supoi'ior ? — Nil. I di<l nut say it was the universal rule. < )n the
conti'iiry, I ha\c nu'ntioncd ovci' wwA over anain that there are a i,'rc.it nuiiiy indi\id\ial
cases which do not tall within the rule; hul as between nations, those that abstain are
certainly interior.
liil Jmliji' McDonald ;
'.\\)~'.\\. You have e.\co|tted nu-n who abstain from conscientious motives? - Y'es.
.'iy7.'i-. And men who abstain for the purpose of scttini,' an example toothers ? — Yes.
.■}'.)7i}''{. I bclie\(! that the ni.in you consider infeiioi is the man who, on account of
constitutioiud defects or weaknesses, abstains .' Ves.
.Sui MATTHHW l'..\l I.LI H IM^CIU V. subscpicnlly forwarili'd to the Acting Secre-
tarv of the C'onnnission the followiiiij supplementary statement :—
VICTOIUA. November -J.'ird, ISO.'..
To On. Uhadlev,
Actin;,' Secretary, l\oyal Commission, Li(|Uor Trallic.
Siii, .\s I fear some of my answers to the Honourable Counnissioiiers may hine
b(- 'U misunderstood, I bci; to supplement those answers in writim;.
.it)7.'il. I did not mean tosay, and I do not think 1 said (thoujjh you have sosupjxiscd)
that the use of stimulants proved any superiority either in a race, or an individual, over
an abstainer. .My contention nu'rely was that as a nuitter of fact stinudants are used
by all the Indo-CiUU-asian races ; and that the only races who haliitually, or j;enerally,
ai)stain frrun alcoholic be\-erai,'es are i,'eneraliy considered inferior to these, vi/, : The
^b)hannnedan races ijeiierally, Hindoos and Chinese. I also stated that I had never
met a total abstainer who impressed me as possessed of extraordinary excellence, morally,
intellectually or physically. On the contrary the best men I have known in every line
ha\(' used stimulants.
In answ(!r to a question that [leojile are debased by using, and improved l)y abstain-
ing from stimulants, i meant tosay that demonstration is scarcely possible, because if
a peopl(! used alcohol for a certain period it woukl have been impossible to say what
their relative jjositioii would have been had tiiey during the sann.' period used nothing
but watiM', and nri- ri'rxii. I now wish to add that all the examjih's I can remember
ecrtaiidy are contrary to the suggestion. I'oi' instance:
Eight hundred or one thousand years ago the Mohannnedan nations surpassed the
Christian nations in arm.s, in science, in liteiature ; supported and at length repulsed
far beyond their limits, all the forces of Europe lianded against them, and nearly alone
preserved mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy from oblivion. Thirty
g(>nerations of water drinking on the one side and wim- drinking on the otlier has not
imi»roved the relative ))osition of the total abstinence men ; on the contrary, the posi-
tions are entirely reversed, and many Christian nations are now able, singly, to cojie
with the whole force of Islam. And the relative progress of the Christians in arts and
sciences and learning has not been less ))ronounced, but is ever more remarkable than
their advance in armed strennth.
As anothei' example : I lu-xcr heard of anybody here who ever saw a drunken
Chinaman ; yet thi.s extraordinary sobriety has not enalileil them to gain a higher posi-
tion thai the wliisky drinking c(»lonists of European race. Again : The Mormons
have been compelled by their religion to be total abstainers during three generation.'-- ;
but they have shown as yet no su]>eriority, i)hysically, morally or intellectually, over the
surroundin'T Centiles.
HiB Maithkw B.\ili,ik Bi;(iiuK.
602
57 Victoria.
SesHional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
It is fuitlicr I'ciimi'kiilili' tluit wliciciis all (.'liristiiiii cnminimitirs aw l>y llif ('xi;;iMi
fip8 of tlicir rcli^^ioii lioiiiul at least to llic (ici'asiona! iihc lit' vviiic, ('Diiiiiiiiiiit i(>s wlio
fcji'i't all t't'iiiiciitt'd wines or lii|iiors are precisely fli )se wlm rejeel ( 'liristiaiiily. I''.\('ii
aniniij,' tlie most i},'iioraiit and liailiai'ous .savajii's, wlio i!eli;{lit in riini, tlie al)ori;^ine,s of
Afi'ica, are more Mu.seeiitihle to tiie teaeliiiigs of our mi.ssionai'ies timii are the watei--
ili'iiikin^' Aralis who o[)|)i'ess tlicm, So. too, the imlians (»f this continent who ha\e
iini\ersaliy a taste for tiie water, are more open lo Cluistian teachiin;s than the Mor-
mons. ,\nil. I lielie\e. the same ol)ser\ation Imlds as luiween the hii^her and lower
castes of the I lindoos.
I don't mean to say that these fa<'ts estahlisii the utility of whisky drinkin;; or
any mischievoiis |)ro|)erties in water. If the 'i'lirk.s had lieen drinkinit spirits ever since
the crusade, and the Uussians nothing; hut water, it is of course possiliie that the lever
sal of their ielati\(' strenylhs miifht have lieen more ridiculously cj|i\iiiiis than it is now.
I am as far from suj{i,'estinj,' that Christianity is founded un alcohol as that .Mojiam-
medism is hased on water. All I contend for is that the use of alcohol is compatilile
with I'reat improvenu-ut all aliuii; the line, an<l that water drinking' does not pi'eser\ea
natio 1 lom every sort of ilejiradation. There is pi'oliahly one sulitile inllueiice or in-
stinct at work which impels one race to Chi'istianity, freedom, ci\ili/ation and the juice
of the ^'rape, and another race to Mohainmeciism. cotl'ee and an indolent liarliaiic depot ism.
Another exjiression I used, which oius of the ilonouralile Conwuissioners jippeared
not to understand, was in answer to a (|uestion to me on the hypothesis (hat a larjje
proportion of the community desireil the total suppr'ession (as I understood) of the liipKir
trade. This seemed to me an impossilile hy))othesis, at least on this continent, much as
if we wei' to speculate on what was or should lie done if the sky shoidd fall. Theindy
instance which coidd he (|Uoted, would be, I suppose, the ."<t;ite nf .M;une. Hut it is
<|uite clear that the majority of that comnnmity ari' not in favour of their repressive
law. Ill' 'real it (thoui,di the people ai'c olher'wise linv-aliidirr;.') with the utmost con
terr ; '. M' iutes are not enacted, hut endured Ity a majority, not frorrr any lii^lief in
their' ui 'ity, hut frorrr irrer'c wcar'iness like the iirdi,'ment of the rrirjiist jiriliic and in
the full jic'suasion that siu'h pr'ovisious will speedily hecorrre olisolete ; .as lire •• Maine
l^iipior' Law " is already expected to he, except for the ])ul'poses of derision.
I have the honour to he, Sii,
Yoill' (iliedient ser\anl.
.M.\TT. I'.. DKtil'.li:.
i
J] i
I
Hon. ALBERT NOliTON RT('H.\1!I*S. (,>.C.. of Victori.r. Iiartister-at-lrw. on
heirij; duly swoi'ir, deposed as follows ;
Bi/ Juihje McDoiKtId :
I5'J7-'i">. You ai'i' a hai'r'isler'and also a notary and Queens ( 'ourrsel of ()ritario; Yes.
MDT.'iti. How lonu lra\c you lixcdin JtrMt islr Coluurliia ( 1 was here oil' aird ..n a
nurrrlier'of years hefor'e I settled here linally. I think I came herein 1^7.") aird I'enrained
until 1S81, 'i'hen 1 wasaliseiit irri^il ISSI. I ictuirred at that time and lia\e I'cmairied
since.
'M^l'M. ^'ou arv well aci|Uaiirled, 1 belie\ e, w itli the ( )ntario License J^aw ? 'i'es.
i think I was also in Ontai'io when the Scott Act was in for'ce. I was tlier'c in IS.sI-.Sl'.
.S!J7."IS. What couirty were you iir ? I was at l?i-ockville. The Act carrre into forre
on 1st May. LSSO. 1 was hack ther'c, and went to Ottawa on soiire business.
.'5!)7.'5i(. Did you see anythinu' of its opei'ation when you wer'e there ? -Tlier'c were old
nren who wer-e in the habit of diinkin;;, anil wlren they could iret nothing to drink they were
better men.
.'59740. Do you krrow whether they did i;et liipior' or' net?— They I'an over' to Mor--
ristown and obtained what they wanted. < )f course there weie u great many wlio did
not get it. The farmer's who came in then went home sober.
503
Liquor Traffic — British CoJiimbia.
;5D74 1. I )i) you kiK)\v how the Act operated in later years?— I was not back there then.
39742. Do you know what hecanio of tlie Act? ft was repealed.
39743. Why? — I do not know. There was a larj^e majority who voted in the
counties for it originally, and a still greater majority Noted to repeal it at the (Mid of
three years. It twuld not be repi 'ed until after thr(;e years.
39744. Then you do not know wiiy it was repealed? -No, I was not there at the time.
.■5'./745. Since you came here, have you noticed any change in the social customs
of the people, whether there is less liquor used now than formerly ', I am not a drinking
man myself ; I never go into a saloon.
3974(). I mean in rvgard to the people, whether there is more or less liquor taken
since you came to the province, at [Kiblic me(!tiiigs and at family gatherings? — F do not
know. I do not associate with driid<ing peoph-and with drinking men.
■>r''47. Are you a total abstainer ,' -No, I never was, lama temperanci! man,
but I do not bi'hmg to any temperance society. I do not s ly that I do not drink, but
T do not care about it, and I do not take any credit to myself for not drinking.
3'J74S. Were you at any time brought into connection witli the license law ! - I
was Police .Magistrate for three years.
.39749. Tak(^ tiie cases that came befijre you, was any large perciMitage attributable
to the use of into.vieating licpiors?- -When I first took otHce there was no punishment
for drunkenness. We had the ])ominion law, the V^agrancy Act. Simple drunkenness
was no otVeiice, and some other offence had to be coujiled with it, sucli as being a
nuisanct^ Subsecpiently the City Council passed a by-law making drunkenness an
ott'ence. I think this law was in force two years before I ga\e u}).
397")0. Hail you many cases under it?--! do not remend)er : the i-eturns will show.
T had to prepare two sets of I'eturns, one a return of offences under the provincial statute,
and one under i)ominion statute. I do not know wliether my predecessor or successor
did tliis, but T tiioiiglit it was necessary.
;{:)7")1. in case of the enactment of a general |)rohibitorv law, a law t(j prohibit the
manufacture, importation and sale <rf alcoholic li(|Uor for beverage purposes, do you think
it I'iglit that brewers and distillers should receivi; compensation for tiieir loss of plant
and machinery? — 1 think so. I thiid^ if the law allows men to engage in the business
and to invest capital, the Stati' should compensate such men if it subsi'ipient'y destroys
theii' trade. Take the "ase of Robert IJowie, tif iii'ockxille : he was almost ruined
He spent .'i large sum of money in establishing a large brewery. The Scott Act then
Ciimi! into force, and he was shut (»ut from the lo -al market, and no compensation was
made him. 1 think the case was one of e.vtreme unfairness. If municipalities wish to
adopt such laws as tin Scott Act. men engaLcd in the trade should be compensated.
£i/ R<'r. Dr. Mrhml .-
397-'>-. Would that instance seem to indicate that the Scott Ai^t so fai' as those
counties were concerned had the ell'ect of destiny ing the liipior trade? — I think it did.
T do not pretend to say wliether there was as much liipior drunk there afterwards or not.
.")97-'"i-"). Sj)eaking .iboul ciniijiensation : sometimes changes an; made in the tariff
which almost destroys business interests. Do you think it would be right to coi:ipen-
,sate all traders in such cases? Tarn not looking at the ([uestion in that light, but I
certainly tiiink that if the State licenses men to manuf.icture undtu" Dominion Ij.w.-, and
grauls permits to establish distilleries, aiu! if it is decided later on that it is in the in-
tiM-ests of the [uiiilic to desti'oy those businesses, T think the public should compensate*
the jiaities.
•")97o4. .Vbout the prohibition of the trade : do you think it is desirable in the in-
terests of the country plnsically. morally or socially to ])i'ol>ibit the drink trade over the
whole country.' — i n(>M'i was in favour of it : I ,im not a prohibition man.
•397"ir). Are you op[)osed to the princi])le of prohibition .' i think that such a law
is right ie , rinciple, liecause li-pior is the souireof a great deal of evil, an<l I am satistied
that almost all the crime is committed through liipior. At the same time there are a
great many men who drink modeiately, and it wiadd be unfair to tho.se men to take
rtway tlieii' natund rights and prohibit them obtaining u \ hen tiiey wish to do so.
Hon. Ai.uiatr N'oimon Uichahus.
604
11
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
IV ' -
US tliosc
it (lid.
s or not.
lie tiii-ilV
fOKlJIt'll-
it. l)Ut 1
wr, and
the in-
njifiisatt^
M tlie in-
0\(M' tilt'
cli !i law
satisfied
err ai'f a
to take
so.
.'JOToG. Do you think it is an intcrforeneo witli natural rit-dits to arrest a man who
ilrinks to excess, and shut hin! up? — If he drinks to oxeess it siiould Ik^ <lon(> hy people
to protect themselves.
;i97-")7. Do you think it is well to establish a trade that pro\i(les facilities f(-' tiiat
man's excessive drinkinjj; ! — You nii^ht .shut up butcher shops aceordiiig to that arLtument.
^Vll men do not drink to excess
.397")^. l>o you tl.ink tliat butcher sh ps and drinking; shops are ((uite alike? -There
are a i^reat many d' spepties in this eounti'v, and all of them aic manufactured by over
eatini;. You niii.jlu. ask for the closini; up ot sugar refineries. American women are
noted for eatinj^ sugar and becomint^ dyspeptics. Pretty neai'ly all the women in
.America are tr(jubled with dyspepsia. They are not nearly as strong as old country
women who have 10 oi' b") children.
.■{'.)7o!). l)o you think drinking and oxer eating .ire parallel .' l)o you include lliem
in the same category .' Yes.
.'397<)0. Do you think over eating is as injurious to the country at large as is drink-
ing?- -f think there are more drunkards than dyspeptics. Soirie iikmi commit a grejit
many crimes througli liipiov by having their tempers aroused. Take, for instance, crimes
resuiting from scenes of \iolence, assaults, murders and ollences of that kind, which are
more or less the result of drink.
.■5!t7(>l. Which do vou think is the more injurious to the community as established
to-day, the di'ink trad(!, or the meat and grocery trade '. — \Ve cannot get along witlinut
the meat and grocery trade.
.I.V.MES 1y Mc.Ml 1J..VN, of N'iclo'ia, High Sherill' for the Couuly of Victoiia. .m
being duly sworn, deposed as follows:
lij/ Jnilge JfrDonald :
.■i'.)7()2. I )oes tlu^ county take in more than the city .' Vcs, it takes in nearly ,ill
the island.
.'ii)7();i. How long have you been High Sheriff ? -Eight years.
;?l)7t)4. How long ha\e you I'esided in the proxinee '. Thirty-two years.
.S!t7().j. Did yini come here from one of the other provinces '. ^'es, from llurham,
< )niario.
.■i97<i(i. I suppo.se a license law was in force in < )ntario when you were in the ( 'ounty
of l)urham ? — Yes.
.'i97<)7. Did you find a license law in foici' here when you came lieic ? N'es,
.'?97()S. Have you iie\cr had a prol]il)it<>ry law la-re '. -No.
3il7<')9. How ha\e you found the license j.iwop.Mate. H;is it been sat i-faetoiy or
otherwise .' -How do you 'ncin, generally !
•'^9770. ^'es, generally in this cominunitv. Have the pro\ i.^ions been well obser\e(l '
-Yes.
.'59771. The restrictions lia\e been increased latterly, we understand .' Yes, slightly.
■T977l'. Do you think it has been for the public benefit .' - Certainly.
.■{!I77;>. Have you consid(M'ed the (pu^stion of pri-hibition .' 1 ha\e ihoiiglit of it and
read of it.
39774. Are you fa\durable to prohibition on principle?- I think so.
3977'). Have you formed any opinion as to whether it would be practicable to
enforce it on this island ( I think it would be just as practicable as any other law,
.dt hough the people lia\(' certain ideas iis regaril tlieii' lilierty.
."i977(i. Do you think there would be any difficulty in (Mifoicing it,' No more
ililliculty than with any other law, if you only get the men to do it.
39777. ^'oii mean to enforce a law to prohibit i;ianufactun% im]>orlalion and sale of
intoxicating beverages for drinking purposi^sl- T think if there were proper otliiials
appointed who did their duty, it c luld be enforced.
605
m
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
h:v
31)
1 1'
Ifave
tkm?— N(.
you l)e(>n in any cou
ntry wIkmh! tlicro lias hceii siu'li a lav
opera-
3i)77!>. ])<> yt'U know anytliinj; in re^^ard to tlic operation ot' the law in tlio \oitli-
west Territoi-i('s '/ — Not tVoni personal observation, only from what I have read.
.'iOTJ^O. ]la\ o you considered the (juestiou of j^ivintinj; remuneration to brewers and
distillers, in tht, e\'ent of tln^ passage of sueh a law, foi' their loss of ])lant and machinery ?
— No, 1 have not given that subject consideration.
397S1. You are not pre])ared to say whether it would lie rigiitor wrong ? — I do not
.see what claim they would have, any more tiiiui compensation might be claimed for
changes in the taritl'.
.■{il7S2. You put those cases on the same footing? — Yes.
.'V.t7S;i. Have you considered the terms of the statute and the departmental regula-
tions regai'ding i)rewers and distillers, who have to put^ in certain mai'hinery and plant,
and distillers are comjielled to keep their stock for two years! — T do not think it
would be a fair thing to give those men the right to stai't business and then to legislate
av th
leir busniess without ])aying tlicun somt
th
.'thing.
.■?'.)7SI. Have vou thouifht of the enfe
rcemeiit ot ;i general prohibitory law
3it78."). Will you kindly state to the (commission the mode of enforcement you
Would adojit to prevent smiiggling liere? — 1 tliink the macliiiiery we have now would be
suilicient to prevent smuggling.
.'5!t7S(). In the North-west Teri'itories the (lovcrnmeiit maintained a force of Mount-
ed Police of 1,000 men cliarged with the entorcement of thi' law, and with a right to
search houses and iiei'sons. Would vou favour the adoption of such a law here .' Yes ;
id have a law to prevent the inti'oduction of lii|Uor into the country.
rS7. Are travell(!rs landing from .lapan and
louni
for 1-:
their hand baggage? — Yes, they are search<Ml for cigai's also.
uiope searched as regards
ds
;i'.t7.><8. Y
ou would lie sa
tisfied with a law of llial kind .' Yes. 1 liii
to it : 1 rather favoui' it.
I'e no olijecticiii
Jhj Jieo. Dr. JlrLi'ud:
.■<!1789. You have, of course, to deal with matters of crime as Ifigh Sheriil' of t he
county ? Yes.
.'iil7i)0. Have you noticed during the eight or nine years you have been in ollice
whether there has lieen any proportion of the crime that you have dealt witli traceable
directly or indirectly to the drink trade or the drink habit? T have no doubt of it
whatever.
.'ii)7'Jl. ^\'llal |iroportion do you think it would reach .' Three fourths of all the
oflfences her(^ are traceable, directly or indiixictly, to the use of alcoholic li(|Uors.
I I >J
EARN KS'I' H .VLL. M. I)., of N'ietoria, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ;
/< // ./lid;/ ' ilcDoiiiilil :
'■Wi\)'l. How long have you resided in Itritish C/'olumbia ?^-Two years.
:i!)7!*M. |)id you come here from one of the other ])rovinces? — T came from llaliipii
County. ( )ntario.
.'i'.'7',) b hid you live there durini;- thetiiiieof theSeoK .\ct ; I was there attend
ing college.
.■I!t7'.)*i. When you came here, did ytiu find a license law in force?- Yes.
•'i!l7i*(i. How did you liiid the license law work ? I am not jn'epared to answer that
(|U("stion directly, not having had my attention called particularly to the v\orking of iIh'
license law.
•■i!)7i)7. As between prohibition and license, wliicii do you favour? The only pm
hibition of which T have had any experir>nce was in the County of Ifaldm under iln'
.Iami.s H. McMillan.
5()(;
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
8cott Act, and it certainly diniinislied the f|uantitv of liriuof euiisiinieil, ti) a very ;,'reat
extent.
;{;)7'.)8. Duyou tliink sucli a law woulil I )e beneficial ? — Yes, decidedly. I tliiidv
sucli was my pcfsonal experience as a youni,' man.
.•{9799." Was tlu^ Act r.-pealed ? Yes. '
.■{9S00. Do you know if etl'orts have heen made to pass it again since it was repeal-
ed?— Not that I know of.
.S9801. Have not three y(>ars to elapse hefoi-e the Act can lie tested aijain .' -I do
not know.
.'{980:2. Have v<>u considered the subject of prohibition .' -1 have.
."{9803. Are ^.. . favourable to it .' Most certainly.
.'{9804. A.s a matter of pi'inciple ? As a matter of principle.
.■{9805. Do you think it wrong to licensf the liipior trade ; I do.
.■{980f). Do you think it is ;i, sin ! It is a sin to license it.
;!98(J7. Tn case of tie' enactment of a general pi'ohibitory law, a law to prohibit
the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic licpiors for beveragt,' pur]>oses, do you
think brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of jilant and machinery? — -I
think not, as they have all gone on with the understanding that the iirivilegc nn'ght lie
taken away from them at any time.
liij Bnv. Dr. McLmd:
.'{9S08. |)o you think a general pi'ohibitory law could l)e well enforced .' — ^I do.
.'{9809. Have you observed the license law sutticiently to know whether it is enfoi'-
ced or not ? -I think it is not.
39810. Have you I'eason to believe that the prohiliitory provisions of the license
law are observeil i Yes .
.'{9811. Di) you know whether theie is illicit sale by others than licensees ? Tln'i'e
is.
•■{9Sr2. I )o you know whether an attempt has been made t<p enforce the prohibitory
provisions of the license law? Yes, efl'orts Iimvc been made, spasmodic cll'orts.
.;{981.'{, '^'ou think it is as easy to enfori'c a gcneial prohiliitory law as it is tnenfnrce
the prohibitive clauses in the license law / 'Xo : I will nut >ay it is as easy, but I think
it is as practicable.
.'{981 1. Do you think such a law could be well enforced, enforced as well as the
prohibitory clauses ? I thiid< so.
.'{981.'). (.'omj)aring ilaltoii under I he Scott .Vet and X'ictoria under license, which
would j'ou prefer I Halton under Scott Act most decidedly.
.'{981(1. How do you account for the fact that Halton rejiealed ihe Si'ott Act later
on? — It was a matter of opinion among a great many that the weak-minded temper-
ance men violated the law themselves, and so condemned the whole system.
.'{9817. i)id you inidei-sliind the repe.d of the Scott .\ct a> the vcidict ofthe people
against pr«ihibiti()n ? ]}y no means.
o9818. Have you reason to believe that many of the people who voted against the
Seott Act and who voted for its repeal would l)e likely to vuie for altsolute [iroliibition .'
r know a gi'eat many of them would do so.
■'19S19. I ask this (|uestion, because it has been stated repeafi'div that the Scott
.\el people vote against restriction of the lic|Uor trallic .' Not at all in Ontario.
;{98l'0. As a practising physician, have you observed whether total abstinence is
ciimpatible with the best health .' Sir .Matthew to the contraiy. I hold that it is compa-
tible with the most perfect health, intellectually, morally and ]ihysie:dly.
•'{9821. That suggests a (|Uestion .is to the su|periority and inferiority of races, ibive
you any opinion that woidd be.ir on that point .' I <lo n<jt know that I have,
.'{982:!. Is habitual moderate drinking (a line is drawn liy many people between
moderate and excessive driidsing, of course) harmful ur otherwise ?-- }lai'mfid, most
di'cidedly.
.'{9S2.'{. < )lher things being eipiai, i.us a total abstainer any lietter exiiectalion of
life than th(^ habitual drinker.' .Ml iu'-urance statistics |)rov e that to be the case, that
ihey have the better chance.
507
Liquor Traffic — IJntish Columbia. '
39824. What is the rule of life insurance t'dinpanies? -J cannot give you statistics,
])ut I am exuniincr for four or five diftcrent companies and each lays special stress un
the (fucstion : " Are you a iii^.Jerate drinkei- or a total abstainer '." Almost all compaiiii-s
lay stress on a man being a modei-ate drinker.
.'VJ825. Do tlu; companies vary the rates according to the answer given to that
question?— Applications are placed as 1st, 2nd and 3rd class.
.■?'.)82fi. You say you have been examiner for insurance companies? — Yes, for u
number of them.
39827. Has tln^ matter of heredity, other things being e(|ual. the fact that a man is
the child of habitual drinkers, any importance;? Is he nK)re likely than the child i it'
total abstainers to have a desire for drink and suffer from any physical defect?- I ciui
oidy speak of the law of heredity which is universal in the human family, and i.'ive
instances that have come under my own attention. TIk; ciiild of drinkers is more liable
to become a drunkard on account of the inherited weakness of his nervous system, and
there is a great risk of idiocy in ciiildren as a I'csult of drunkenness on the ])art nt'
])arcnts.
.'$9828. Have you l<K)ked into tiie statistics as to idiocy .' — I have not.
.39829. Have you looked into the statistics as to insanity .'- -Xo, I have not. 1 am
referring to cases that have come undiM- my own personal observation.
.39830. What do you think wf)uld be tlie etlect on the health of a community if there
was enforced proiiiVjition .' -iieneticial in almost eveiy instance.
.39831. i >o doctors her(> gi\c certificates of death? Yes.
39832. Do you find any proportion of the cases directly or indirectly atti-ibutablr
to the drink habit a'ul the drink tr'iHc? — My nractice is not among those who tipple to
any extent, but I ha 'e had two cases at which I had to assist at j)ost-mortems, whidi
were attributalile to drink.
.398.33. Are you a t'oroner ?- I am not.
.398.34. Do you sonu'times have to make f)ost-mortems? — Yes.
3983-"). Do you find in cases of untimely de;iths that there is a percentage of them
due to the drink iiabit and trallic / — I will answer that <|uestion in this way : deatli w;is
attributable to the condition which every scientific physician knows is due te al<^i(il.
This man to whom T referred was an inveterate ih'unkard , therefore, 1 drew flu coii-
chision that death was due to alcohol.
.3983(1. Wiiy do insurance compaTiies ask that ([uestion which you have given?
One of the chief reasons is that the u.se of alcohol, especially by wtunen, possesse.*-' an
element of tlanger.
.398.37. Are tiiere any companies that do not impose such restrictions? — One C'dii-
pany I wrote to on the sul)ject said; "a total abstairu-r is e.".j)able of taking care of '.liiii-
self wherever he goes." This com]iiuiy oilers no restrictions.
398.'>S, You think that company regards total al)stinence as being more safe ? -
Yes.
.398.39. .\s a |iliysician coming into contact with parents and childreii, have yen
reason to l)eiie\e that intemperance has been the cause of any propoiti">! of sickness anil
diseas"' which you have met .' -Yes, 1 lliiidc so.
.i9S4U. What percentage would you say ?- I cannot say, on I'ci'ount of my practice
not iieing among tiiat class ; the percentage would, however, be : , .3 or 4 j)erhaps.
/ly Jiidiff: MrD'))ififd :
.39S41. How long hav(> you practis(>d nu'dicine .' Thre(> years.
• 39842. You have been two yt^ars here, I believe .' Yes.
39843, You .said you wrote to sonu^ insui'ance company. Was it in regard to
.some incpiii'v -""h as this being made? No; it wasa diflerent matter.
.39S4 t. Are you prepared to say that there are insurance companies that ha\'e |o\mi
rates for total abstainers ? -No.
3981.5. You have .said that the license law here is violated? Principally in house-
of ill-fame.
.3984(1. Those people are not licensed? — That is where the violation takes \^\•M•^\
Kahnk.st II.XLl..
608
*t "
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
39H47. Have there been cases of violation by licensees? — Not to my knowledj^e.
.■U)84H. You say illicit sale takes places in houses of ill-faine? Yes.
.■{!)84!). How many such places are therein this city ? -lietween -SO and tO, T should
think.
."iOiSoO. We find by the return for 1S91 that there was 818,000 paid for licenses into
the city re\enue and used for the benefit of the nmnicipality, in case you obtained
total prohibition, would you be prepared to raise by other taxation the money now raised
by license '.'- -Jlost certainly. Not so much money would reipiire to be raised.
.■?98">1. Would you be satisfied to have a jiroliibitory law enacted under wliii-h, in
order to be successful, you must <;ive the police the powj^r of personal and domiciliary
search, and allow them search trav(!llers cominj; into the country or leaving' it ?---Yes,
with the provision that all persons w''l limited tickets should be allowed to pass.
That is th(* only provision 1 would wa; . . ..^erted.
? — 1 \\oul(l allow them
i(|Uor
to
l5'J8r)2. Would you expect the travullers to bring in
bring in a limited (|uaiitity.
.3!)8r);?. What (|uantity would you allow them ? — Half a pint at the outside.
3!)8.")4. You would have search made to see if the (|uantity was exceeded ? Yes.
.■}'.)8r).'). And if it was exceed.'d, you would take it fiway from them .' (,'(>rtainlv.
in fi
1 d.
."{yHoO. Do you know any country where such a prohibitory law
not know that I can recollect any such country.
.■}i)8r)7. The C(jmmissioners liave been told that there is such a state of afl'airs
existing in the Fiji Islands. Have you any knowledge f)f the law there ? -No, 1 know
notliing about it.
39808. You would b<^ prepared to tiy the law which you have spoken about, and
see if it could succeijd ! — Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod:
39859. Speaking of houses of ill-fame, is it your belief that there is sale of
them 1 — Yes ; they could scarcely be run without whisky being sold in them.
i([uor m
.JOSHUA DAVTES, auctioneer and connuission merchant, or being duly sworn,
deposed as follows : —
By Jiuhje AlrDoiiald :
39800. How long have you resided in Victoria ? — -1 have resided here since i860,
more than 30 years.
398(51. Before that, where did you reside'.' — In California.
39801!. What system of dealing with the li(|Uor traclc \vas in force in California
when you lived there'!-- A license law.
39803. Have you ever lived in any jirohibition country ? No.
.39804. I suppf>se the license law sinc:e you came here has been amended fro'- time
to time in regard to its [)rovisions ?~ F do not think it has been amended very much.
39805. Do you think it works satisfactorily / — I do not think it works harmoniously.
39800. Have you found it to work satisfactorily ? -Fairly satisfactoiily.
39807. Do you think the licensees try to live up to the jn'ovisions of the license
law ? — T think so.
39808. Have you rea.soii to believe that unlicen.sed sale exists to any extent in this
city 1—1 do not think so.
39809. Taking the community as a whole, how do you find the jieople, are they law-
abiding or the contrary '! — 1 think they will compare favourably with jieople in other
communities.
39870. Do you know anything of the use of light wines and ales here, as distinct
fr(Mn the use of ordinary spirits? — I cannot see m'vv much difi'erence. I think the people
509
V)
li
'I
i
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
are usinj^ more wines and be^r tlian they have been in the hubit of doinf,'. Tiiis is on
account of tlie clieapncss of California wines and fi'oni tiic new breweries recently opened.
.'51IS71. Do you tliiidv it would l)e adviintay;eous if the use of those liijuors was
increased and the pcojile canu! to use them regularly instead of ardent spirits? — Tdonol
know, it is not so much the use of liipioi', but tiie taste and habit that ar(^ harmful.
39H72. Are there any amendments to the present license law that you could sujiicest,
either as rej^ards the mode of issuin<; licenses, or the number of licenses, or the amount
of the license fee or any thinj; of that kind ,' — T have always thouj^ht that the sale nf
liquor should be open to all. i
;>!)H7;i. Do you me.ut open to all without limitation ? — Yes ; but the fee sliould b(>
very hi.uh, probal)ly two or three times as hijLjh as now.
.'59874. Then in youi- ojjinion it would be desiral)le to allow any man to have a
license, but you would make the fee hifjh as a protection? Yes, and also see as to ihr
quality of the li(iuor sold.
.■?9S7-'). I think that is one of the matters that the Govermnent are now attending
to; Thev demand that liquor shall be two years in warehouse for purposes of rectitica-
tion '( — Yes ; tliat rule should l)e extended to all imported liquors. I think li(|uor coni-
\n<i in from different countries should obey that law, and only liquor of a certain aye
should b(' allowed to be used. In other ways I think the (|uality of the li(|uor is a
matter that the (Government should look after, and there slK)uld be two or thi'ee classes.
This is necessa.T not oidy to protect the wealthy but the workingman.
;?9H76. Tlien you would favour rigid and fi'e(|uent inspection of liij.uors ? — Yes.
.'{9877. jVnd the trade would regulate itself, and as many licenses would be issued
as would be taken care of by people who would make the business [)ay ? — Yes.
."59878. Ha\e you considered at all the (pitv^ion of prohibition? — I am certainly
opposed to anything of that kind.
.'59879. Are you ojiposed to it on ])rinciple? — Yes.
.39880. Do you think a general prohibitory law wouVl be jiracticable in this
country? — No. ^Vhen you prohibit people from obtaining a certain article, the demand
for it is increased.
.'59881. Apart from that cii'cumstance, and taking this country as a whole, dn ymi
consider that it would be practicable to iMiforce a general i)rohibitory law foi" the whole
Donnnion ?— T do not think so.
;5988l'. What ditliculties would you appi-ehend in regai'd to the enforcement ef
such a law? -In the tu'st place, there is an innnense coast line in the Domiidon. Then,
instead of the (!o\ernment revenues and duties from different lioods. ] think there wuulil
)e a lot of snmgulin
It must be rem(Mnbered that we have
immen.se coast line in
the Dominion, takiiii' the islands with the
land. It
wou
Id 1
)e im
possi
bl
e lllKlel'
such eircuinstances to prevent smuggling. Of course if you put a very h' rii duty un
li(fu
juor it wou
Id encourage smiigglinj.
988:5. You lia\e heard the (lueslion as
ked
111 rei'.'ird
til
'liforeement of th
[irohibitory law in the Territories, which gave the right of search to the police, the right
of search not only of premises but of pe
rsDiis.
Would such a law be likely to succeed ii
this eommiinity ? — I do not think it would succeed. It would be most ex]iensive if tin
Dominion ever undertook to attempt to enforce any such law.
.'59881. C!an you form an opinion, from your knowledge of the country and ymii'
ex|M'rience, as to what effects the enactment of such a law would have on travel in the
country ? — I think it would stop travel in a great measure. People are now in the habii
of travelling under the most comfortable circumstances, ha\iiig in tli(> cars and steam
boats the l)est food and drink. I'^rom my e.\perieiict>s as regards travel through I'liti^li
Columbia, 1 think that \ cry little li(|i;or is used by tourist."
H.
:iver, if thev eon!
I hit
-t it. I
suppose they wou
lid
want it.
.S988."), Incase of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, a law to ]irohiliii
the manufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating liepiors for beverage purposes, iln
you think that brewers and distillers should be I'emuiieiated for their lo.ss of plant and
niachiiery ?- I think they should be paid every cent of what they have invested anil
the vaiue of the licpior they may have in stock.
Joshua Davies.
610
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Hllicnt :'t
Thni.
wciiiM
t liiu' ill
UIkIi'I'
duly nil
.t' till'
ii(> I'iuht
(•(■cell ill
it' till'
111(1 ymii'
!■! in til''
ihc lialiii
<l sti'iun
r>riti<h
'\' COlllll
Jijj Rti: Dr. MeLfod :
."iltSSd. Ill what lilies of j,'(io(ls do you (leal? -I iiiii a ifciicr.il aiictiniiccr, and I
handle everythint; that roiiics into this jiart of the \v(jrld.
.'i'.lHST. Do you receive consii^nnicnts of liquors,' — Often.
.'{D.SSS. Speakini; ahout the inspection of liijuor, do yciii think tiiejiriei' of lii|uoi'
under the inspect inn wuuld increast; / I do not think so. I think it would lie a threat
lienetit to many elasses of the people, especially seafaring men, who go away for a
nuinl)er of months and when they return go into a low elass of saloons where liipinr of
the very pooi'cs*, (|uality is sohl. That is one of the greatest dangei's they meet with.
;{'J.Sf<!). You think it would he a great henetit to them if tlie (|uality of the lii|Uor
was deeidediy improved? Yes ; if (>very one knc^w tiiat they could get wiiat they asked
for, it would b(^ veiy much hettei'. The licensees should he pledged to keep li(|Uor of a
ctM'tain (juality, and if they kejit it of an inferior (piality, the houses should he closed.
."iitl^'JO. Are thei-e any liquors of a hetter elass that would not make a man drunk l
— I think you can get drunk on almost anything. You can get drunk on licpioi' made
with sugar and sea-weed. They make li(|iior out of sea-weed and out of sugar ; the liquor
made out of sea-weed is known as ( )chnoo. it is manufactured hy the Indians near
the Alaska territory, if not in Alaska itself. 'I'liey distil it from kelp, which is a kind
of .sea-weed. The kelp furnishes the whole thing. It is the same as pure alcohol, and
it is the very worst li<|Uor.
.•')ftS'.)l.' [t is practically alcohol? -Yes.
.')!iS!tL'. Will it intoxicate a man? -It simply makes you crazy, and a very little of
it wnl ilo so.
.S!)S'.i;$. Would that he cheaper t liaii ordinary liquor ?- -If you wanted to kill vour-
.self, I su]iiios(! it would he.
.'iDSitt. Does it actually kill, or sinijily make a man cra/y ? It make-, a man wild.
.'i'.I.^Oo. Are the liquors which are said to bi' pure, less intoxicating .' .\ny li(|Uor
will intoxicate.
;UJ<S9(). Will it pay better than imjiure li(pior, say of second or third olass? -Of
eourse selling it liy retail, the retailer does not make as much by selling good li(pior as
he would make selling poor stuff; but when he reeeiM's 10 cents a glass lie c.iii att'ord to
gi\e tlie\ery best li(|Uor. I am sp(>aking of the City of Victoria.
.">!IS',)7. 1 supjiose .second and third rate places that sell poor liquor do so because
there is profit in it ? — Oertainly, and that class of people take largei' quantities.
.'t!»89S, l)oyou think that if they sold better li(|Uors, the j)eo]i|< would take less?
-They would reduce the (piaiitity sold. If you want the \t'ry best brandy they will
give you a small glass that is called a "pony." They gi\-e you a smaller ghis^, and you
hiive the j)ri\ilege of lilling it again. In the \ery best saloons they will charge '!■) cents
per glass for that kind of liquor; but that is not what I am talking about. What I
want to distinguish is this ; They lia\e licpiors that an; practically new lic|iioix, ilnit is
the li(|Uors contain practically the fu.^el-oi I, That is the worst kind of liqiioi any one
can use.
.'i'.iS'Ji). Is it not what men desire liecaiise it "scratches" and produces ellects
(|uickly f Possibly, because the man has not been accustomed to anything lieller.
.■J'.mOtJ. Would it h(> cla.ss h^ifislation to take that kind of liipior away from a iiian?
-I think the (iovernment should |irovide that liquor should be sold of a certain (|uality.
They now |iro\i(k' that whi-^ky and li(piors of that sort shall be kept in bond iwoyears
tiii rectification purposes. The < !o\ci'iiment should provide tli.it liipiors that are im-
|iorted should l)e treated in the same way, and that they should lie of a certain strength
and quality.
•'i'.l'.IUl. .\re you now referring t<i smug
I iiiie til pav dut V on the streiiiith of liiiuors.
'h'd
iKjuor
.'—No
V(
at I he present
The otlicer takes one bol I le out of the case,
iiid the duty is jiaid on the strength of the liquor.
'Mmri. Is not that dictati
11'' as to w
hat
■illoul
o drinl'
It is the law to(la\.
.'{iH.)0."{. Y'ou have said that the li<'eiise law work.s satisfactoriK', and that it
IS not
rmful? — I do not think it i.s harmful. The only
iiild lie to have higher license and ha\-e a less
ay 111 whicli it could be improve(
Id
d
iber of houses, and
iH'p a better t'liiss of liqu
M'
■1 tl
leiii to
or.
.^11
w
I''
ill
Liquor Tnittic — Hritish Columbia.
•Slt'JU t. What would be the atlvfintaj^e of haviiij; a less number of houses selling? —
I think the prcfsent law f,'ives an opportunity for a jxtorer class of ]i(|U(>r to he sold, and
also a poorer cltiss of ](ersons to be engaj^ed in the trade. If a more stringent law were
passed and a high license had to be paid, and a certain ijuality of liijuor sold, the licensees
would b(! more careful to comply with the law.
;{9i)0o. Have you observed yourself whetiior tlie li(|Uor trade is harmful ? — It is, in
some instances.
.'{KUOti. In many instances? — Often you see a man drinking heavily, which is bad
for his business, but you also find a great many people who do not drink to excess.
These persons may take more li(|Uor than others.
.S'j'.)07. You do not believe in prohibition because it is an interference with per
sonal liberty, I suppose? — I think so. 1 do not believe in any kind of prohiliiti^ 's. I
do not believe any ])ei'son has a right to say to me, 1 should not do so and so, simply
because he believes it is not good for himself. Ife may be right, but it is not proper that
any prohibition of that kinil should be passed.
.■M)i)08. Do you think the law has a right todeal with inebriates? — leertainly think so.
.'$1)909. Why ?— Because the inebriate might be a danger to himself atid to the com
nmnity.
159910. Suj)pose they are harndess and do not create any di.sordcr, do you consider
the people have a I'ight to deal with him ? — They might not deal with him directly, bui
if it was a case in which a man had become crazy from li(iuor, the law should deal with
the person who sold liijuor to him under the circumstances. That would come under
the liquor license law.
.'59911. You do not think it would be i'ight to deal with a man by convicting him ?
—If he is a danger to himself and the connnunity, 1 say yes.
39912. You do not regartl the licjuor traffic as a danger to the community, I sup-
pose ? — Not necessarily.
.'5991.'5. Did I understand you to say that men always want to do what is forbidden?
— A great many of them do.
.'59914. Do yfm think it would be well not to forbid men to break laws, and thus
let every man be a law to himself? — There are always certain restrictions in i\ city,
there must be some kind of laws ; but as regards [jrohibition, that is going to the e.xtreme.
.'59915. You said that you did not believe in prohibiticm in anything? — Yes.
.'59916. Do j'ou think that is applicable to the decalogue, and furnishes the reason
why men violate it ?--I am afraid there is a good deal of that.
.'59917. Do you think it was a mistake to issue the decalogue?— I do not know.
By Judge McDonald :
.'59918. Do I understand that you would not favour prohibition as regards stealing ?
— 1 mean prohibition of anything wrong in law.
.'59919. Anj'thing wrong in jjrinciple? — I swore here with my hat on becau.se 1 am
a .Jew. If you had said you cannot take I'ln oath in that way, I would hav(? replied
that you were interfering with my personal rights.
.'59920. Your answer that you are opposed to prohibition in anything, means iiiiy
thing that is not harmful in itself, I suppose? — Certainly.
Joshua Davies.
512
VT^-iH Trrm
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
t'jiliiii:
ALKXAX|)Kll WILSON, (if V'icturin, nicrcliaiit, on lieing duly ^woni, (lf|)(ised
tt.s t'olldwa ; —
liji Jitilijc Mflhttiiilil :
'M)\)'l\. Ilow loiiy liiuc ynii resided in liiitisli ('ohiinhiii /--'I'liirt y-tliree. vt^irs piist.
'.VMxl2. Did ynii eome liere tVuiii one ut' the ullier jiroviiiees ,'--- Ves, tVnm tlie l^fo-
vince (it' Quebec.
:5!t!tL'.'{. What part? I am a native nt' the City "f Quebec.
39'.)l'4. r suppose till) lieenso law was in t'oi'ee in that pi'oviiice wlien you left th(^i'(! ?
Yos.
.■$!M.li.'.'"). |)id you tind a license law in force when you came here? Yes.
•■!!(!»■_'•). Ha\i' you lived anywiiere else than in X'ictoria.' No. I helicx-c the licens((
fee was SdOO when V caine here, now it is .Sl'OU.
■VM.yi't . So you have watched the opeiation of the license law here, as a citizen / —
T think I ha\e.
•'iili)28. I >o you know whether the licensees observe tlur provisions of the license law ?
— I beliexc they make all the drunkaids lli(> law allows them to make.
•'}l)H2i>. J a.sked you wlu^ther you had noticed whether the licensees observe the law
or not, 1 refer to sale on Sunday and .after hours? Up to within the last year the
saloons wore oj)en seven days in the week and •_' I hours in tlu- clay. Since the l)e;,'ininni^
of the y(>ar saloons have been opiMi all week and closed at. 1 1 o'clock Saturday nii,'lit;intl
open aj^'ain at 4 o'clock jMonday moridiii,'.
.'iil9.'<(). I low is the law r,bs(M'\<'(l .' I do not think it is observed.
.■5!)!).'ll. l)oyou know any <»stablishinent ii> which it is not obserM'd .' i ha\c sec^i
drunken men on the streets on Sunday.
.'{itO.'il.'. Have you called tlu? attention of the authorities to th.it fact ? No.
.'i!)t).'<."). ! think you said the licensees niakeall the druidvards t he law permits. What
do you mean by that expiession .' As many as they can accommodate in the s.aloons.
•■!!)i).'M. I t.ake it you are opposed to the license law ? I am an out-and-out jiro-
hibitionist.
.'590.'?."). Then you think it is w rom;' to license the trade? -Yes.
.'!!•!).■!(■). .\nd you consider it to be a sin / - I do.
;l!)i)."57. In case of the eiuictment of a i;ener;d prohibitory l.iw.a law to prohibit the
inanuf.icture, importation and sali> of intoxicating licpiors for beverau;(! purposes, would
you think it right that brewiM's and distillers shouh.l receive compensation fur their loss
of plant and machinery ? -No. T think the (Jovernment should jiay the widows and
oi'j)hans the liipior trade has produced. .\n applicant receives his license for 1 '_' months
only, and he h.is to i-eiu^w it at the end of lh.it time.
."^DiKiS. Do you know of a.iy case within yf)ur experiiuice in whi(;li a (.'ourt granting
licenses refused the apiilii.'ation of a man who had lived up to the reipiirements of the
law? In this province?
.•?ll<);{!). Yes? -I cannot say that I have.
■■?iti)-W. Do you not know that uniler the re(|uirements of the (lovernmenl and de-
partmental regulations men are reipiired to lia\'e ceilain m;ichinery for the pur]io.se nf
manufacturing beer and spirits? — 'S'es.
.■59O-H. l)o you know that tiie spirituous li(jiior has to be kejit two years in stock
for the purposes of rectification, and that no remuneration is made them on that
account? Yes.
.■}'.)!ll"2. r)o you think a pnihibitory law should be [lassed, to come into force as
>oon as possible? — Yes.
;?9!)43. In ease such a law were passed, do you think it could be enforced liere, )a-o-
vided tilt; (lOvernmont were in .sympathy with and itledged for prohibition? — If they
lielieved in the law, it shoidd be enforced.
.■?i)!)| t. Ila\'e you heard what has been said in regard to searching houses and per-
sons : w'oulfl you think tliat right under a prohibitory law ? - -We would iiave to submit
to it.
513
I'l- ;$3**
Li(iii<)r Traffic — British Columbia.
I I
: 'i
f^
'I
HOKt"). ho yoii tliink it would l»f right? — Yes. Of course sudi n reguliitioii is iiul
j)leHsiint, hut r would give it.
.'5!MM(>. ^^'ouid you make a limitation hy allowing half a pint of liijuor to travellers
going through the country on a through ticket '. If 1 am a helieNcr in prohiiiition and
the (Jovei'nment of the countiy btilieve in it, thei'e is no occasion for allowing travellers
to carry liipior. Th(!re are, of course, mt^dicines used in camp and they would not have
li(|Uor ; if li(}Uor is to !>»; given in one case, it should be given in others.
.'5!)947. >So you would makt! the measure a very rigid one? — Yes.
.SimiH. And you would cany it all through? — Yes.
:ilt!)41t. You think that with the otlicials ojuMiiy in favour of sui^h a law, it would
be a success .' — With the Government of the country sound on the question, there is no
fviu- i>iit that the evil will be stamj)e(l out and the otlicials will be su.stained.
.'5 i)r)0. Have you made a study of tlu* (|uestion? I. have read about it.
."{'.t!)")!. |)o you know any country in the world where such a law is in force .' — [ do
not know of any ; there is the Stat(! of Main(^
.■{D!)r)2. Theiu' is this state of all'airs in Maine : We have the swoi'u evidence before
the Commission that while the people ai'e not allowed to sell or have- li(|Uor for sale,
they can liaM' all they want for themselv(\s, but they cannot go beyond that? — T know
that some years ago it was a rare thing to stje a drunken man.
;U}!(r>;i. is that the kind of law you would favoui',' -Yes, if the people would have it.
;iy9r)4. Do you know of any country in the world where there is absolute prohibi-
tion now ?— No; but 1 do not say that our country should not adopt such a law. The
liquor traffic is a curse in every sense. Licjuor is no doubt good for nuMlicinal |)urposc.s
and foi- manufactming purpo.ses ; but take the elFect on fandiies and individuals and
eonnnuiHlies, and I think any candid man cannot fail to adndt that it is a curse. I
think it is a mai'k of superioi'it.y on the part of ;i man to be a total abstainer. In this
pi'oviiice I have seen clei'gymen, medical men ami lawy(>rs who were a disgrace to their
respective professions, from the use of alcoholic driidi. I have seen thent in the c(jm-
pany of Fudians. I respect an Indian as much as any other man as one of God's
creatures. They are capable of being elevated. In this provinci; we have Indians wim
have been led u|) step by step to high jH>sitions. If you educate the Indian, he becomes a
man. Put whisky to his mouth, and ho falls back at once and becomes a low hidian.
Put whisky to the while man, and you have a "mean white '' at once.
3i)!)")o. Have you ever seen among the Indians what would 1^; called moderate
drinkers?--! do not think there is such a thing among the Indians.
;i!)llo(). Do you think there is such a thing among whites? — I do not think there is
any such thing as moilerate driid<ing.
.'{iJlJoT. Have you obsers'ed whether liquor has the same effect on whiles as it ha>
on Indians?- — Yes.
39958. Have you spoken in regard to Indians. Would you make a law also in
regard to whites, such as exists now in regard to sale to Indians .' — Yes.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
.■i99r)9. Have you noticed any change of late years in regard to the driidcing habits
of the jieople ? — I have.
IVJ9GtJ. Is drinking done more or less in this ])rovince ? — In early days I think ii
was considered to be a mark of good breeding to have li(|uor on the laljic. Wiirn I
visited a house there would invariably be tlrinking. Now the habit has pretty ncaily
died out.
;}99(U. You think there is less of social drinking? — \ do ; but there is more in saloons.
;{99G'2. Then you think there is more bar-room drinking ? — Yes, and also in liotfN.
.■)99G."5. As between the two, saloon and hotel bars : which do you think is the mure
dangerous? — The hotel bar is the more injurious.
.■i99()4. To what do you attribute the change in the social customs in Victoria to
which you have referred? — The churches have had a great deal to do with it, as al>'i
have certain temperance societies, and in my opinion the Women's Christian Tempei'anee
Union has had nK)re to do with it tluvii any other a,ssociation. When li([Uor is tai<eii
Alexander Wilson.
514
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
away t'nun tlie sideboard imd is iki longer before tlie oyes of the childrtMi tbt-iv is a (irtnit
advam-ciiH'iit uiadf, and in liiis way young people wiio arc gi'uwing up arc not subjected
to flic same temptations.
.'ilt'JOr). Do you tliink the traHic is iiow I'c'.'arded diH'erently to what it was before ? —
Yes, I think the people arc 'egiiming to look u[)on it as a disieputal)lc trartiu.
.■i99t)0. Do you believe the growing sentiment of the peopli' in l^ritish Columbia lu
be against the li(|uor tratlie f -I do.
.'jy.ltiT. Do you tliink the sentiment in British Columbia approves of the r-eatrictioiis
in the liicnsc law f -Yes, that is my opinion. I btlie\c that if a vote u.i taken to-
morrow, the people would vote for ]ir<'hibition.
.'{'.tDOH. Do you think it is desirable to have a ])lcbiscito of the people on the
i(Uestion / - Yes, [ think that would be the best way of arrivin;; at tln' <ppinicin of the
lieoj)le generally.
liy Jndyv McDoimhl :
;<!)9r)!). Y'ou have lived in Canada all your life, [ suppose ? — The greater part of it
i have spent about licrc. I belong to an infei'ior race I am a Canadian.
.'19970. You have si)oken of a plebiscite. 11. is it been a liriti--h custom to regulate
the legislation of the countrv by having a jilcbiseite l \ believe' not.
.'i'.i97l. Then should this ijuestion not bi- treated as any other ([ucstion and left
with Parliament to deal with .'--I do not believe our legislators are sound. You have
men elected on the temperance ((uestion, ai\(l they do not vote for it.
39'.l7l!. Yu'i ha\<' said if a plebiscite were taken, the [icopic would vote for prohi-
bition. If the Legislature does its duty, will not this (piestion be brought up and satis-
factorily dealt with .' -1 do not belie\e the present House could lU'der a plcbi.^. e to be
lakcn.
.'{997-5. Instead of taking a plebiscite, why not let the peo|)le who would carry a
plebiscite elect a representative pledged to carry out prohibit ion, and in this way follow
Ihitish (nistoni ' That is where the troubU? comes in.
."i'.t97 1. Why; Wlien it comes to an election the people are intlucnccd and vot*;
the way they are intluenced.
.'{997"). You mean they do not thiidc of the prohibition question .' - ^'cs.
3997(). They allow other influences to override it ? -Yes.
39977. Why do they not see that candidates are brought out who while tlicy would
act as their representatives would act, would also be in favour of prohibition ! — L cannot
tell you.
.■5997s. Can you explain it l—'So.
^59979. Does it not seem to be the .same; way all i>\'(M' the country '. It docs seem
the same way. We fiiu I a man who is elected, .and who is an out-andout total prohi-
bitionist, such as Mr. Foster, who is now Finance .Minister, afterwards shuns the
ijuestion. Me asked where the revenue was to come from, aiui he wished to be shown
how it was to be obtained, and a})peared to think that it was impossible to obtain
•■^7,000,000 that would be retpiired. He does not think that |irohibition would empty
our penitentiaries. There are between SO and 90 con\iits in S'ew Westminster.
.■599St). Do you think they are thereon account of drink ! — As Paddy said once, 1
think three-thirds ar(> there on that account.
.■599iSl. Have yo\i any Chine.se convicted ?- Y'es.
.'59982. We are told that they are not addicted to the drinking of liijuor. Did
intemperance t.ake them there 1 — No.
;599S:!. Who are the three-thirds ] — There area certain number of Chinese.
,'59984. Y'ou think that if the (juestion was put as an abstract proposition, the
licople would vote at the polls in favour of total prohibition of the tratKc ! -I do.
3998."). But when the question comes down to practical politics, you think it is
thrown aside 1 -Yes.
.'5998(1. Has that been your experience in that connection '! — Y''es.
159987. I understood you to say that the trattic has become disreputable in this
province? — All well thinking men think it disreputable.
515
21— 33i**
|i!i
M:
\V
h
l!
.a
'ii» i
i
J
m
Lu^uor Tnirtic — Hritisli Columbia.
li'.MIHH, \Vf liH\c lii'iu'il tii-day tliiit this is a very orderly uiui law -al»i<linj{ community.
Is lliat tile rii^c, (III Villi tliilik ! YcN,
."titDM!*. If all ri;{lit tliiiikiii;^ iiirii cmisidiM- tin? trade <lisr('|iiitalil<>, liovv in it tlicn- is
any (iitru'ulty iri ;ii'tliiij,' tlie liC;;'islatur)' In take tlif saiiif view : why will nut ri;;ht think-
iii<{ iiit'ii act at till' elect iiMis .' ()t' cour.se the |ie(i|i|e iiii;{lit [iiit ri>;lit thiiikiii<4 men iti
the l<e;,'islature itself.
.'l!l!t!l(). If all ri;ihl ihinkiiii: men think the liiniur tralllc disreputahle, and llii-
majnrily uf t he |ii'iijiie are ri;;ht thinkiii;,' men, where dues the dilliculty arise ? I dn
not kniiw .
.'i'.HtUI. Why (III they nut have the remedy aiijilieil Ity the r.e;,'islatur(! tn this
disrepulalile trmle.' They aie stri\ ini; fur that.
;i'.iil!»L'. Why canniit ii lie dune, if ,dl ri^'lit thiiikin
ThcN- cannut j^et the ri;,'ht men.
ii'M are uf that upiniui
lU-
ni
.■{'.l'.)!l."$. |)u yuu mean that the I'iyht thinkinj; men form a majority of the conni
ty, and yet this catiiiot 1)«? carried out / Sometimes we ha\t' men votiri;; entirely fo
|iarty, the same as they do in the east, liut as a rule here men vote fur individuals. I''
instance, there is a vei'v res)n
\ery ri's|i
'talil
e wliulesale rum si
llei- in the Lei'islatl
ill
•tal
lectaitle man, i
f it were not for' the ii'aflic he cai'iies on.
■'I'.MI'.II. Fs he (lisre|iulalile on that account '. That, in my ujiinion, makes him di>-
reputahle, for he is dealing,' in an article that has liecn the cause of murderiii<| a friend
of mine.
.'V.l'.l'.l.'i, Will I he riLfhi-thinkinu men of whum vuu have simken vote for the man
whom vou think
s ilisre|iiit,ihle
I
iim sorry tu sav
they ill
.'ili'Jitti. (,'an you iii'count for iliat.' -Nt), it is (jno of the incuiisisteiicie.s uf human
nature.
% Rw. Dr. MrUod
'■WMM . I low many years have yuu lieen in husiness? — T think .iliiiut 28 years.
.'ii^il'.tS. .\s a business man, ha
\e yuu n
iiticed the elVect uf the lii|uur trallic un other
liraiiches uf trade .' TIk; linuur I raiKe has this elVect, if a merchant is a drunkard h
i-hildren yu hootless and vei'v often hunjiry.
.'i'.ID'.t'.l. I )o you think that in that way the liijuor tratlii' has , an injurious (iffoct !
1 (1.
GUKGOHY CLKMENT SAL'KR, of Victoria, on being duly sworn, deposed as
foUow.s : —
Hi/ Jiultjf Mrlhmahl :
40000. A\'hat is your business or occupation? — I have the Banker'.s ExchaiiL"'
.saloon.
(OOOl. |)iiyou hold any ollicial iiusitiun in cunnectiun with the Licensed ^'ic1 nai-
lers' Association ? -1 do, I am President of the Association.
40002. How lonjj; have you lived in British Columbia? — About 10 years.
4000.S. Did you come here from one fif the othei' provinces ?- -No, I came here from
California.
40004. Since yuu canui to Ihitish Cohunbia, have yuu resided in Victoria all th.it
tiuu> ^ I suld li(|U()r in Vancouver before it was known by that name,
40005. How long did you reside there? — A little over a year.
4000t). You were in the liquor trade in Vancouver? — Y'es.
40007. Have yuu now a licen.se from the Licensing Board? — Yes.
40008. Are yuu oi\e of those who come under the provisions of the ohi law, that i>.
the license is continued fi'om year to year by youi' simply paying tiie fee iixtm year Im
year ? — Yes,
AM;.\A\i)i:ii Wilson.
51G
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■U)UU!(. T;ik(t till' lii'ciisi' law IIS vuu liiivc iiliscrNfil its ii|M>i'iitiiiii in \'aiu'iu\i'i' ; tin
you i)eli()vn tliiil the pcisotis wIid wcif liwnscil lived ii|i tu the ii'iinireiiKftits nf tin- \nw 1
— I think so.
lii()|(). IliiVf ymi i'\<'i' lived in any |pri>ldl)ilii)n emiiitry .' — When I was a Ijny, I
lived in fi counti'y wliei'e it was int'nrce.
lUtJl I. Where was that ,' -In Hwit/erland.
40012. Doyiiu rei'iiliet't anything' nt" the workinj,' of that law tlieii t Nn.
40{)1.'J. Do you reiMilleet anythini; ot' the j)art of Switzerland wluTe it was in foree ?
— It was in force in some distriels,
40014. In which of the eantons ,' Zuiieh was one of them.
4001"). Are there any ainendineats ti> tin; present lieense law yon I'oidd sii^^'csi
that would he advantageous. Foi' instance, it inia liecu suj,'^ested that it would he de-
sirahle to make the lieense fee hiijher .' T would not o|)|)ose it, hut ;it the same time !
do not thiidv it would maki' any dill'erenee to the lii|nor Irallie.
tUOlO. Then it has I n su^'^esled that there should he an ins|peetion of liijuois, .so
as to prevent the use of adulterated and impure lii(Uors. It has heen suj,';,'ested
that as there has heen a law re(iuirin;t Canadian li(|UorH to fcmain iji liond for- reetiliea-
tion purposes, foreii,'!! licjuors should he recpiired to he of a certain a;,'e'.' (\'rtainly. 1
think it would he a i^reat henelit to the people if the licpior was insjieeted and aseert.iined
t<) he of the .same dei;r'ee of strenj;th as it should lie,
•10017. Ha\(' vou had any experience in re;;.ii(l to the use of li^ht wines and ales '.'
-Yes.
4001H. Is a taste for them iiro win;; anion;,' the people ? Yes, there are more li;,'hi
wines and ales drank now than there were fornii'ily, in fact the sale is inereasirii; all the
time.
4001!). Is la;,'er Ijeer used here much ?— it is.
10020. l)o you consider this to he a soiier and law-ahidini; connniinity .' \'ery
much so.
10021. How does it eompai-e in that resjiet't with other places in which you have
lived in California and elsewhere/ You will find drunken men anywheie, hut this is as
soher a community as I ha\e seen anywhere.
10022. As you are in thetratli<' it is hardly to he c.\pected that you are in favour
of prohihiticjn ? Certainly not.
4002M. Puttin-j; aside the (|ue.sti()n as to whether you are favnurahle oi' not, do you
tliink it would he practicahle to enforce such a law? I hardly thiidc so. f do not think
the people want it.
40024. In case of the enactment of a general prohihitoi'V law, to proliiliit the n;anu-
facture, importation and .sale of intoxicatin;; lic|U(U's for heverame purposes, would you
deem it rit;ht aiul just that hrewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss
of (ilant and machinery !- -1 certainly thiids .so.
1002"). It ha.s heen suggested tlwit it woulirhe hetter to sejiarate the sale of liiiuor
from hilliaril anil pool-i'ooms. What do you say as to that point / I do not see that any
benefit would result from that.
4002ri. Have you a liilliard-i'oom ? — I have had a billiard-room.
40027. Have you one now .' No, I ga\e it u|).
40028. You would have people who would play billiards and not drink .' It cawsed
Ciiusiderabic trouble, so I ij;a\e it up.
40029. How did it cause trouble? -Becau.se you had to attend to it.
Ji;/ Rev. Dr. MrLeod :
40030. Which jiays better, the billiards or the bai- ? The billiards pay \ery well
when you run them ]>roperly, in fact they pay better than li(|Uor.
400.'U. How long have you been engaged in the liquor business .' .\bout nine
year.s.
40032. What is the object of the association of which you are President .' We
have to pay a certain sum of money for permission to hkW liipior, and we an- entitled to
certain protection from the Oovernment, and in order to get that protection we ha\e
formed an association.
517
m
m '■■
tiri
Liiiiior Traffic — R/itish Coliuubia.
400."i.'5. What piotectioii do you expect tVoiti tlic Government ?- AN'o liold liefiiscs.
and consciiucntly are allowed to sell liquor.
400.'54. ^\'llat jir(jtection do you expect from t!ie (Jovernnient that you obtain liv
having an association ?- That we v ill not he intVinged upon in anj- kind of way For
instance, they passed the .Sunday law about six months ago.
400.'ii"). Was the association opposed to th'.t law ? -Certainly.
lOO.SG. You did not want the Hunday lav?— No. When we got our licenses, we
liad a right to s(;ll on Sunday.
100157. I think you said that men under license obsei've the law : do they sell mi
•Sunilay ? — Not that I know of.
tOO.'iS. Does the association chide its members who violate the lasv ? — Certaiidy.
. 400.3!t. ^\'i\at do they do ? —We will not allow them to be In the association.
40040. iJave you had before your asscjciation any cases of violation? — To a certain
extent. When wc think we are infringed upon too much, we make a point to have it
attended to.
40041. Infringed in v hat way ? — In regar<l to the Sunday Act.
40041'. Siin'e the Sunday law has come into operation, do you lieli( ■ • the licensees
ha\t' observed that i;iw? — I think so.
400l.''>. Ha\e there be>n no eases brought against any one in the association ' —
There were two eases, but no j)roGf wa.s found against the parties.
40044. You think lu.body has been convicted of selling liipinr between Saturday
night and Sunday ?- No.
40015. Sujipose one was convictiul. would the a socialion take n.xice and tell tlie
licensee not to do it again ? -Certainly, if he had \ iolated the law.
1004G. Y'^ou ))e!ie\-e in the license system ? — Of course.
40047. Why do vmu b(>lie\ e in license ? -]f there was r.o lie 'n. i law •' ■ y om'' v (p.:ld
sell liipior.
M)OIS. I )o you nut tliiiik it wiadd be a better system ; -No. I do not.
4004!). Wli' do not gi-ocei's require to hav(> licenses ? — Tiu^y h; t» {■> iiiive a licen-^e.
400-50. Caiuiot a man sell groceries without liaving ii lieensi' ? -They niust pay a
icrtain license, and in this way contribute a certain amount to the icvenue of the <'iiy
and country.
I()0r)l. Then doe. e\'ery shop-keeper pay ;i license ?—Cei-taiii|y.
41>05l'. But the li(|Uor de.aler does not r"(|nire the same kind ? lie j)ays a licence
fee, which is about the same thing.
400.")3. Do_you thinic the grocery and l;q\ioi- men are on the same basis ?— Yes, t<i
a certain extent.
40'.)."')i. !)oi>s licen-;ing limit the amount of virinking.' 1 do not think tlial license
has anything to do with the drinking.
llJOo"), ))(> men vli'ink as much wit!; license as witluuit it ? - Yes,
100-")C) In case of t!ie enactment (|f a general prohibitory law. do you think men
would go out of the trade;- 1 snp])os(> they would ha\'e to do the same as anybody
il.se ; they could not starve.
10().')7. They woidd go out of il:.' tivule, I nppose ' i do nul think t'.'ey would
remain and be lined or inquisoned.
4(J0r)S, "Would they be making themselvt'. liai)le if the law were enforced i — The
law woulfl be enfoiced. but 1 do not think you could drive the liquor outof tlie country.
400r)il. S])eaking of conqn^nsation. you think that brewers and distillers should be
compensated. I )o you think that the men who hold licenses should be conqx-nsated .' -
if the (lovernment allowed me to take out a year's license an<l stopped me selling before
the yeai' was over, I 1 ink I should b(> comjiensated.
4O0G0. But if the Goverinnent allowed you to run out your ye:ir, wliat would you
say? — I would have no claim.
400(V1. But you thiidc the brewers and distillers ha\e claims ,' Yes, becaiise th>-y
have a cei-tain amount of capital invested on which they could not reali/.e.
Hjl Jiiih/iMilJi iidhl :
4itO()l.'. In what part f)f Califoi-nia diil you li\ef--ln San l-'rancisco.
C.Hi:(;oIiV Cl.KMKNT S.\UKH,
57 Victoria.
Sessioix...! Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I00fi;3. I suppose yo'. were nut in any l>iiit of (Jalit'ornia wlusic pidliihitioti was in
force? — I foriuorly ttMvelled in California, Imt tlieie was no i)n>liil)ition anvwi\t'i-o
I visiied.
400Gi. Tliere was no prohibition anywhi'io in your day, T sujipose f No.
-^.. m.'
THOMAS HOViJlTON, of N'icturia. di'y goods nuM'cluint, on Ikmui; dulv sworri,
deposed as follows : —
yy*/ Judge McDonald :
400G5. How long have you re>ided in Victoria ? I have I'esided in X'icturia in the
neighbourhood of IG years.
4006G. Did you come here from one of the othi'i- pros ;ii('(>s .' — No, T canic^ liei'o
fi'oni Massat'husetts, but 1 originally came fi'oin Kngland.
400()7. How long is it since ynu cauK^ fruni .\rassachu.setts? About •').', ycats.
tOOGs. What system was in force there / -The license .system.
tOO()'.>. In Knglan.l I suppose there was also a license system in force? — Yes.
10070. Did you find a license law in the province when you came here? Yes.
10071. Ifave you obse ved the working of the law here? — Casually.
4007:.'. I)oyou know whctlu.-r the provisions of the license law are carried out here?
— 1 (.'ould not state from my own personal knowledge whether they are carried out or not.
r have heard peo])le say that they are not carried out as much a:- they shoidd be and
that there is gambling going on, which is contrary to law.
4007.'i. HaNcyoii any person.d knowledge a-s to gambling f No. I have ne\erbeen
in gambling places in my life.
40074. Is there any illii-it sale of liipior going on here? — 1 do not know.
4007.'">. Have you considered the ipiestion of proiiibition? 1 ha\c read a. good deal
about it.
4007G. Ai'(> you favourable to it? — Yes, I thiid< it would be a good thing.
400~7. Are you opposed to the licensing of the lii|utu' tratH<' .' —I am opposed to it,
because it is detrinu'iilal to tin interests of the community uid the walfare o^' indi-
viduals.
40078. Do you think the license system is wrong in principle .' ^'es. I lielieve it is
wrong in pi-inciple, as so much evil re. alts frou! it.
4007!'. Do you think it is v, rung i > drink liquor for beverage purposes? — I could
not say it is wrong to drink liquor, although great e\ils result from th" use of it.
40')!S0. iSo you think it 'ould Ije well not to license the sale of it ? Yes.
40081. You would rathe;' ha\.j prohibition, I suppose ; but failing prohibition,
you would rather have licensi> than untrammelled sale?--Yes.
40082. Do you think a gcMcrally prohibitory law could be |)ract ically ent'oiccd in
I'ritish Columbia'; Of course that could only be ascertained by test
1008.'!. You want prohibition that will go to the inot of the matter.' ^'es, and i
do not want a law that cannot be enforced.
400S4. You would not want a law that would prevent men drinking if the liipior
w'as kept for their own use? — [ do not oliject to such a law, but I do object to the
sale of liquor.
4008,"). You want to do away with sale and bartei- ' ^'cs.
4008G. But would that not be an infringement of the personal liberty of the
subject ? -Not if a man used it in this way, so that it would not pro'-e a temptation to
others.
4O0c'^7. You would require a irian to get the biploi' some where else than in the
lomnninity where he li\fil,an'. you would not allow him to l)uy it here .' -No ; he could
bring it in from elsewhere: lie would have to bring it in from the J'nited Slates.
4008S, Or sonic other coi.ntrv than Canaila ? -Yes.
519
m
Hv;
\m
Liquor Trattic — British rolnnibia.
40US1). In ffise of t lie passage xt' a jr uei'al prohibitory law, you would not fa\oui'
proliiljiting importation ? — No.
ttlU'JU. Ill case of tlie enactnit-nt >f a general i)roliibition law, a law prohibiting the
manufacture, importation and sale, f'o you think it right that bi-ewers and distili>'rs
should be cDnipcnsatcd for loss of p'.ant and machinery'/- As regards niachinei'v, I dn
)iol know : that is a (|uestiou I li,i' c not studied.
lUODl. Yon understand that i)y statutory law and l)y ilepai'tmental regulations
those manufacturers have been r(!(juired to intrt>duce certain machinery, and from time
to time it has been changed, and they are compelled to conform to tliose regulations.
The manufacturers have also been rtMjuiii'd to keep in stock two years their ii(|ui>r inr
rectific.itiiiii purposes. In case oi the j)assing of a law that would jirohibit their business
altogether as regards nianufaciure and sale, would you thiidc it right t(i ninunerate theiri
for loss of machinery and plant .'---For machinery and plant. 1 certaini}- would say tlie\
should not hi; compensated. As regards the li([uor in stock, 1 think tliey should be
paid for that.
40U1V;. Would you think it better to gixc them sutlieieiit time to disjio.se ut' tlieir
machinery, plant and stock .'--I would ])ay them foi it.
400ii.'i. And you woulil put the law in force immediatil; .' -Yes.
Ji>/ Bei: Dr. Mcleod ■
40091. As a business man, ha\e ynu noticed tluM'ffect the li(|uor trade has on ollu'r
branches of business in die community, such for instance as the diy-good;; ? As
regards my own business,, 1 can speak more positively than in regard to other branches.
I know those who are the most temperate people, heads of families who do not J rink,
buy more and \r,iy better. The more solier a community is, the bottv ■ it is for a business
like mine.
lOOi,'-"). Do you consider that the li(|Uor trade as a rule interferes wit li oilier
branches of jjusiness ? — Y'^es.
/iy Judge MrD(»>alf/ :
4009G. I suppose there are other matters too, although people deal more in ymn'
line of business I suppose ! — Yes.
4001)7. Are there other means of I'ecreation on wliicli men iiiiglit spend theii' money
than on liquor? — Yes. Those who take recreation I think, howe\t>i-, arc tiie ones who
drink mostly.
4001)8. Do you know any persons who use intoxicating beverages and use them in
moderation? — Tliat is men who do not get drunk : T believe lots of jieople in N'ictoriii
do so.
400'jy. 1 suppose you have tnistomers who do that ' I liaxc all kinds of customers.
The Conimis.sion adjourned.
I . i.
TiiOJiAis Houghton.
520
57 Victoria.
Sessional Pai^ers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
VICKJHIA. >'oviMnl«T 1.;, |SUv>.
I'iie Coiiuiiissioii met tin's dav al l<» a.iii
I'l-'Srlll :
.liiii.i: -McDkwi.i). liiA. I>i!. >r(Li:i)D.
ROBKIJ'T W'Alih, (if \'ict(iiia, iniiiliant, uii lifiiii;- duly swdiii, dt[>usf(l as
fnllows ;
Hi/ .IiiiIiji' McLonalil :
40100. Wh.st is vuiir husiiius.s (ir Dfeuiiatimi ,' — 1 am a inerc-liaiit, and lam aJusiiie
of tlie Peace for tln' I'luvince of Hi-itisli Columliia.
tOlOl. Has a .lustifc of tiic Peace for tlu' Province a laryef jui'lsrlicf ion tlian is
]) (ssessed hy an ordinary Mayist rate ? Yes, lie is a Justice of the I'eace for tlie entire
|iro\ince.
lOlUl'. And an urdinaiy .Ma,i;istrate is oidy fur tlie cinmty ni- district ? A .i,'real
many "vi- snch.
■4'i|ii ' How loiii; have you resided in this |)ruvince '. -For 22 y<'ars.
4o;i'i Did you come here from one of the other i)rovinces ori!.dnally .' I lanie
lure from ]'Iin,daiid.
4010."). What juiisdiciiiin have you.' Similai- tn an ordinary . I ustice nf the I'eace.
and as Ju.stiee (if the I'eace, !ia\e occupied fur sduie years the position of a Licensing
Commissioner.
M)10(). In what section.' in N'ictoria.
40107. Then you are one of the Ijicensinu ]>oard h I aui not at the jiresent time.
A lew months ;i<jn a sjiecial aii]ioirtment was ma<le \>y the Council for the Licensing;
r.o.ird.
4010S. llaM'Vou travelled through the pro- 'no ? Yes.
40101). 1 suppose a license law has been in for-e in Hritisli Coluiniiia since you
eanie here? Y'es. TIk' license law in ditVerent pirts Ins not lieeri enforced. The
license laws in the cities luuc heen dill'eretit from tliose in the districts: that is to say,
that the licensiiiii regulations for the City of N'ictoria are not the same as those foi' the
district.
40110. Taking the li((iise law in the ditlerent districts, does it .iji'iciir to work
satisfactorily.' With re.pect to the City of N'ictoria, the recent Act p.issed hy the
Legislature works more ad\.intageoMsly to e\('rylio<ly than any prexious regulations h.ive
done. I consider that tlie present law ,is .idopted in the City of N'ictoria is practically
local ojitiou.
40111. It was stated yesterday that some difl'erence was made hclweeii liotels and
other places selling li(|Uor, owing to the recent aiiiendment of the Act .' ^'es. 'l"he
practice of the Commissioners has lieen to favourahly coiisiilcr ap|ilications for licenses,
hut they h:ive had to lie satisfied that jiroiier accommodation has been furnished hy tlie
applicant before the licen.se was gr.anted, and of course they take into ai'count the
character of the a])plicaiit himself. With respect to saloons it lias been considered for
some time past that there are enough in the city, and so no applications for saloons have
been considered, not on account of disorderly conduct on the part of the applicant but
siiujily because the I'.oard thought there were enough in the city.
10112. You appear to ha'.c li\e classes of licenses here ,' 1 belicNc that is so.
lOll.'t. The classes apjiear to be hotels, restaurants, sidoon, w holesale, and hot tie ?
Yes
521
!':
!'!■
'a
K-
^4^
■:j. 1
h-':'i
Liquor Traffic — Brifish Columbia.
401 14. Is tluM'c iuiy (litl'crt'iice ht'twccn a sjilooii and ii restaurant furtlior tiiaii that
the restaurant jn'ov ides int'ais, aixl in a saloon meals are not nec(f.ssary ?- -In a saloon
driiikin^' can take plaee at a bar or in a room adjaeent to the liar. In restaurants liciuor
must be served with the meals. There has always bet^ii a ditlerenee.
401 15. In a hotel may liiiuor be sei-ved at the bar and also at the table? — Yes.
401 Ifi. So the hotel license is th(^ fullest kind of license, that is to say that li(|uor
can be sold in more dift'erent moflos than elsewhere? Yes. The license fee is largei' I
think.
40117. Are licenses issued by tlu! Provincial (io\ernment to breweries? - Xo.
40118. That is entirely a Dominion license I suppose ? — They come under the
Inland UevtM'.ue department of the Dominion (rovernment.
40119. Jso attempt has been made to impose a ))rovincial or municijial license on
them ?- Not to my knowlediji'.
40120. l''iom your ex|ierience are thei'e any amendnients that you could sui^gest to
the license law as it is at present ? — At the recent session of the Lej^islature an Act was
passed aniendiiij^r the Li(|iior License Act with respect to provincial licenses, and that
amendment had for its object the closiuij; of saloons on Sunday. I may say that that
Act applies to the whole jirovince. I believe that Act is working most satisfactorily in
Victoiia. I do not know, but I am under the iniiu'cssion that not more than on- or
two con\ictions have been obtained undei' the Act for infringement of the li(w. In the
district 1 think last May, II prosecutions came before me, sitting as Magistrate for the
district, for infringement of tlie law on Sunday. l]ut the old yioiiit came up as to what
was a hiiiiti Jii/i' traveller, and, although we convicted each of the defendant.s, yet .i, •'
an appeal to the Supreme Court the convictions w(>re (piaslied, simply because the Court
abov(> considered that those men who obtained liipiur were homi Jii/<: travellers, I think
the Act should be amendeil so as to clearly state what is a hatui Jhir traveller. In other
respects the Act has worked salisfactiu'ily as a whole. W"\X\\ respect to the conduct of
the saloon . in Victoria, 1 nmst say that at every n.eeting of the Connnissioners which
[attended, 1 made a point of inipiiririg from t lie p ilice whether the saloons wcjc well
conducted, and I do not recollect one instance in which prosecution has taken place for
carrying on a disorderly house, e.xcept in the carse of the Standard Theai.e, which was a
music hall in which drinking was carried on in a very loose sort of way.
40I"JI. Was it a licensed house? It was a house that obtained a license oi'iginally
as a saloon, and subsiMpiently it was turned into a low class music hall, ami T am afraid
worse than that. The Connnissioneis to(/c the matter up \ery strongly and eventually
succeeded in getting the place closed. ! do not think there is any place to-day in
N'ictoria of thi' same idiaracter.
401'22. Have you reason to belie\c that illicit sale prevails to any extent? -No, I
have no reason tolielieve it. < )f I'ourse Filo not know whether you refer to selling liipior
to Indians.
401l';5. No. 1 am speaking of selling li(|ur)r without li<'enses ?--No, I think not. I
liavfr never heard of any convictions, and eertaiidy no case has been brought to my atten-
tion.
40r_'4. In regard to selling liipior to Indians, what have you to say ,' T have had
a good deal of experience in dealing with cases of that kind. In most cases where liinior
has been given to Indians wv have found a tendency to supply them through the most
proiHgate ; son»e were Half-breeds and sonu^ Chinese who su])])lied the liijuor.
1012"). Those then are not men who have licenses '? — They have no license and they
are dealt with under the Tndian Act, the penalties under which you are aware are very
severe. You have asked whether licensed houses have been very orderly condmted or not,
and I may s.iy the instain'cs are very rare indeed lli;it I have never known of any case in
which the holder of a licensi; has been proseciiteil for keeping a disorderly house. In
districts where I have acted one or two isolated eases have come before me.
lOrjd. Have you had any complaint made to you about l,he (]uality of the liipior
founil in licensed houses, whether it was jidulterated or not? — No, T nevei- heard of any
such case. Of cimrse in regard to the li(iuorMi]iplie(l to Indians, th(> li(|iior i^; impure, as it
is generally secured from vendors who doctor it.
HonKiiT Waud.
522
i I
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
tllfV
Vl'IV
• lint.
LSI' 111
111
i(|Uiir
■ aiiv
M> It
10127. Do vuu tliiiik tliat at tlic present time it is desiralile lliat fre([Ueiil and stii<i
inspection sliould lie made of lii|Uor,' T tliink Midi pruleetion is veiy desiiiilile indeed.
It is only just to the purcliaser that he should '^t-t tiie (juality of lii|iinr lie a^ks for.
lOr.'S. A sujj;j,'estioii was made to the Coiiiinissioiiers yesterday, that while uiir own
distillers were required to keep li([Uor aeei-tuiii length of time for purpose of rectitication.
foreijrii liijuors were allowed to come into this country without there lieiiiu any e\ideiiee
that (hey iiadheen so rectified, andit was sujj;<,'est(Hl that there should be le^islat inn hy tlie
(lovei nmeiit, to re(|uire that imported li(|Uor should he all of the same iiiiaUtv as home-
made spirits/ — \\'itli respect to the importation of foreii,'!! liipior, 1 may say that upnn
the arrival of such liquor at the Customs house they are dealt with, and tests are made
as regards the strength of the liipiors and their (|uality is ganged hefme tliey are jiiaeed
in bond.
lOrj!). Do you know that this is done '. Cei'tainly.
401:10. v\re any of tlie cases opened .'—'riiere is a case from exeiy (c>ii.-,ignment
taken to the ajipraiser's oHice. In the case of claret oi'any other intoxicating liquor oiks
sample is taktMi from each case, and on the wharf before the liquor is allowed to go into
a bonded warehouse it is treated in that way.
lOl.'il. The Commissioners have had evitlence, 1 think at .Montreal, that a quality
of brandy, so called, is inqiorted tliat is staled by the wholesale dealers toeost!?l.M)
a case of two do/en bottles and it wa.s suggested that when you take into consideration
the original expense of the li([Uor, the bottles, capsules, labels, straw-wrapping, box, etc..
cost of fri'ight and duties, it must be ;i very inferioi' article. Subse(|iient e\idence shows
that the liquor was made of the cheajiest kind of alcohol, manufactured in (lermany;
fioin jiotatoes. Can yon inform the Commissioners whether sncll liiplor is brought in
hei'e ? — Not from my own knowledge ; but if such cases occurred in this jirovince tlu'V
could be treated and dealt with as for obtaining money under false pretenses. If a man
sells me a case of brandy, it should be brandy.
401.'?:.'. lUit this transaction would oeeiir in ordinary trade, and of course it could
be contended that you could not expect to get for si. 10 iwodo/.eii bo'^tles of real brandy .'
— T should hardly look u]ion it in that way : it is cheating, it is obt.iining money under
false pictiMises.
401. '5:5. These transactions are going on in the ordinary trade in th" i 'astern |iro\ inces 1
— In my opinion such eases should be dealt with very si.\erely.
4011! I. You do not, know of any such liquor being offered for sale here .' - I think
you should obtain information from those experienced in the trade. 1 think the .saloon-
keepers thri^ughout the country shoukl be I'.xamined on the points, becaust* these are
matters which I cannot speak about from personal knowleilge.
401.3"). Ha\eyouhad any experience of a prohibitory law? -Xot directly. I re-
member in Alaska., the territory to the north of this country, s iine years ago thi>rc was a
large trade going on between liritish Columbia and .\laska, in fact there was a large
trade with nearly all points on the Stiekeen J{i\erand I'uget Sound ii; the illicit whisky
business. I have known cases where licpi.ir was smuggled in casks of butter,
small kegs of whisky being inside. The butter was melted .ind jioiired around tie' small
keg, and it would be concealed and ship])e(l as butter.
101. "it). Have you considered the (picstion of prohibition as a princi|ile .' — Yes, 1 ha\ e.
401.'f7. I •»' you think, •from >our experience and knowledge of the peopk; here and
the knowledge you possess of IJritisli Columbia, that if such a l.iw were passed, it coulil
be enforced in this jirox inee ? — I do not. l''roin what 1 lia\(' seen of the Northwest
Teri'itories of Canada. ;ind 1 have passed through the Territories frequent ly, I am satis-
lied that there was more sale or liipior and :i great deal more (li'iinkeiini's-, I ban if such .a
law h.ul not been in force.
401.')8. In the event (»f the enactment of a general piohibitoi'y l.iw, do voii think
there would be much smuggling? 1 think there would lie a V(>ry large amounl of smug-
gling, in fact T lia\c lieen informeil, although it is scarcely e\i(lence, in the course of con-
versations wit h inaiiy residentsof those Territories, th;it sinuguling was carried ontoa
sery (umsiderable extent, and win .j inatler of coiimion occurrence.
40l.'}9. Are you troubled with illieil st;lls in this ))rovince ? — No. A few yearf^
igo there was a case in Saanieh district [ belie\e that was the onlv ea.se within mv
623
I: !
Liquor Traffic — Bi'itisli roluinl)ia.
m
recollection. 'I'liat ciiso was tiikcii to tlic .issizcs iiiid tlic case was a failure. altliouf,'li
there was no moral (loul)t that there was a still there.
10140. Sii|i]iose a prohihitnry law were passed, to prohibit the mamit'acture.
iniijortatioii ami sale of intoxicating' liijuors for lie\era;,'e j>urpo.ses, do you think it w(add
be rij;ht and pro[)er that renumeration shonld be ;j;iven to brewers and distillers for their
loss of plant and machinery .' T did not understand that if such a law were passed it
would deal with brewers.
4U14I. It would pi-event brewersand distillers from manufacturiiifj;. The ijuesti(jn
I asked yi)U was, whether they sluadd be remunei-ated for their loss of plant and
machinery icndei'cd useless? Most decidedly. I think liberal remuneration should lie
made.
40111'. .SupposiniT a natiunal system iif piciliibition was linniiflit into force, that is
a law prohibitiii!.; thrnufi'hout the Dominion the manufacture, impoi'tation and sale (if
licpior for heveraj^e ])urposes, a law that would prevent any une makin;;- liijuiii' m
brinj,dnj;' it iri fur private use. the uidy exception beiny liipiur i'niuj,dit in for medicinal,
sacramental and meclianicil jiurposes, do you think such a law cciuld iie enforced / -No.
I think yiiu would lia\c brouj,dit about the most cumln'rsome ] iece of leijislation evei-
enacted. i'\irtlier. I think if such a law were ]iassed, the i)ominion (hixcrnment would
have to provide and maintain a licet nf revenue cutters ' lo- thi coast, which wnnid be
a >,'reat e.xpen.se.
101 l.'5. What would be the effect as ivj^ards t ransconrinental iravel, if tourists and
otJKM's had to subnut to ha\ iny their liaj/yaiic and c\'en their jicrsons searched ' I thiidc it
would be a great disadv antage, and the law w ouid be \ iolated if such were the case. I am
makin.'j; this statement from what I kno^v of the Xorth-west Territories. I have travelled
with tourists, who comjilained years ago most bitterly of the interi'Uption to travel in
th(-' North-west Territories, and some of them declared their decided intention not to
travel that way jigain. I may state in |)assing, that I travelled though Calgary three
years ago. I was in bed on tlu' cars, \vln'n I was rudely shaken up by some one. T
looked out and said. " What do you want .' "' Some one said " Have you got any whisky
here?" 1 said " Xo. What ha>.e you to do with it." He replied •' 1 am a police otlicer.'
1. aoked him where his luiiform was, and he said "That is all right. I asked the con
ductorabi>ut it, and when we looked again, the fellow had disap])ear(Ml. 1 was informed
that that was by no means an isolated case. I was tra\('lling in North Dakota a short
time ago, whereas you know prohibitory law w.is in force. That law is most rigidly
enforced in the dining-car. So long as you are in the State, liipior cannot be obtained.
r did not make any iiMpiiries, but the law certaiidy- does not seem to be violated, although
I was informed that you could get .dl the liquor you wanted.
A'.y 7,'-r. Dr. MrUod:
40144. Speaking about the policenum who disturbed yourshnnbers in the I'ullm.aii,
did he wear a uniform .' He did not ; that was thi' reason I comjilained.
4014"). Do you know wdu'ther it was an otlicer on duty who was trying U» get
li(pior .' — He may have been both, btjcause the comluctor infoiined me that it was a very
connuoii thing for policemen (ui pretei\se of carrying out the law, to try and get whisky.
401 Ml. Do you suppose that that was one of the reasons why prohibition was not
more rigidly enforced in the North-west Territories ! 1 am tiot in a position to reply
intelligently to that <piestion, because I have not lived in the Teri-itorics, and T hail no
opjiorl unities of obser\ing the working of that law. 1 have oidy stated what has cotne
under my jiersonal ol)servation in jiassnig through the North-west Territoi'ies.
40147. As a mci-chant. you have some knowledge of the laws and the modes adojited
for their enfoi'cement .' Yes.
401 IS. Do you know wh.'ther the right of search is carried in other matters than
as regards li(jUor.' In what way.'
40141). I'^)r instance : do the rcnciiue officers not search the baggage of people n.
.see whether they have contraband article.;?- -They do.
401oO. Is that different from the search for whisky, and if different, in what way .'
— Tt is not <liH'eri'nt. The course or ]U'oceduic is as follows: on the arrixal of any ship
J!oi:i:iir \\'.Mii).
524
M
ill:"'
'm:
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I
(•cm
mmiumI
iuiii'd.
Of stc.-iinei' till! uiistiiiii oMiccis art' |)icsriit, Jiiid ask |uiss«Mif(er.s ulictlicr llii'v liavi' any
iiiiitrahaiid artiflcs 111' any artii.'li's lial)lt' t<i (Inly. I tliink iic|iinr would lie induilcd in
those aiticlcs.
40ini. Tlicn woidtl the course ]iuisii('(l 1)V the customs oWcers in tlir f\cnt ot' a
jiroliiljitory lasv De different from the course ])ui'sued liy tliem now. when theylielieve
that sniUL'itlinn- is heir,^ attempted .' I should say, no. I'erhaps there would \h- a much
more slrinijentcxaminHtion, hut in my opiidon there would lie j<»ss in toxica tin;; licpior
l)rou<^ht ill in that way iiiuler such a law.
''M.-)L'. Do [icojile olijecl Mow to scan-hot' l)aj,'^ai;(' tor contraband articles, for
jewellery and the like.' No. liccause they know it is the law, and it is more riiiidly
enforced in the 8tales than on this side.
101-"i.">. If the peoplf knew the other \\a^ the law would llic\ oliject to it.'- 1 do not
think they would.
IDlTil. You spcike about Xorthwest prohibit ion and t he c\cc,ssi\|. diinkin^ there.
I low loni; were you thi-re f 1 iie\er made any leii.i;tliy slay there, but I just passed
llirou;;h four or live times and I had many opportunities of con\ersiii^ with residents
of t he Tcrritorii'.^ : in fact, on my reciMit \isit to Knijland. I uaswitli a uciit lemaii from
the Territories for many days.
lOl.")."!. |)iil you learn from residents of the Territories that the permit system had
aiiythini:- to (hi with the non enforcement of the prohibition law / I have heard that the
permiti system was a uood way of jJiettinji' liiplor. and that ii >\as a relief after the pro-
hibitory law.
jOloii. l>o will think from what ymi learned of the iierinit systcmlli.il it w;isiallier
one of permission than iirohibii ion .' I think it was one of permission.
lOI'iT. l>oy(iu think the prohibition in the North-west Territories was a lair test
of a [inihibitory law ! .liiduiiiL; from con\ersat ions I have had. 1 should say, decidedly,
yes.
mioS. ila\inu in mind thai lliepci'mits were issued generally and indi-^crimina-
tcly ! I cannot say that, from my nun personal knowledn'c. but I lia\e heard thai it
was not \eiy ditli<'ull to uct permits.
401")!). 1 )o you think the soei.il driiikinii cause-, luoie drinking ilian legalized drink-
in;;? -I can scarc('ly ^isi' an intelligent reply to that tpiestion. I am afraid there is a
i;ood deal of soci.il drinkini: ;;oiiiu on throughout the world. There was in Ijondon,
recently, a great conferent'e res])ecting .social drinking and drinkinu' amonusl women.
lOHib. That is social drinking, in what sense .' 1 )rinking in houses and in other
places than in public bars or houses.
■U)hil. Not drinkinu' against i he law ?-- - No : because there is no law to prohibit
drinking.
Kl'il!. I think you .said that the license law m N'ii'toria was pia.t ically local
(tjitioh ? Ill my opinion it is.
4Ul(i.'{. Will you please explain how that is .' I will do it in this uay : ifana[ipli-
catioii is made to the Coinniissioneis for a license for an hotel or a saloon we will lake
the case of Hii hotel — the application must lie ac<'ompaiiied by ,i petition signed by a
\erv large percenlage of resiilcnts li\ing in the block in which I he a|i|)lieant proposes
to have his hotel ; and moi'e than that, if you will look at the .\et, which I presume
you have befoi'e you, ii reipiisition is also neeessiiry from t he ratepayer> and |iroperty
owners on the opposite side of the street . ( >f coui'se it is very dithi'ult to get signa-
tures, ami 1 ha\e from time to time sympalhi/ctl with applii-ants on their lia\iiig lopre
sent a document which has been a pretty troublesome matter to [irocure. The ('oininis-
sioiiei's lia\(' gone into these a|i|ilicat ions \ery carefully. In some cases thev took (Lays
lo consich'r them, and it really rests with the people them-e|\cs to deeid'- whelhei the
license shall be granted or not.
4()lf»4. Is it not a fact that there is a license in N'ictoria which •aiinoi be re-,. iked i
\ think not.
4Ul(>"). The Commissioiii'i's were informed yesterday ihal then- were liit-nses
attach(>d to certain premises, and that these might be transferred from one pl.«ee to
another, and that the licensees of those places lia\(' not t imply with the ]irovision to
whicii you have referred? — The eustoin has been that in ease of ' old licenses, the
52a
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
nwu
mm
license reniuin with tin; lioldcr no loiif,' us ho behaves Iniiiselt' iiiid cdiulucts his house
satist'iictoi'iiy. If he wislies to dispose of his saloon or hotel, as the case may i)e, h<^ nuist
niak(^ ai)pli<-ation to the Court, in tiiis way: he must advertise; his apjilication, statinj^
that he proposes to transfer the license now held l)y him. Then the application must
be deposited with tlu; Clerk for, I think, 14 days. At thesittin;^ of the Court theapi)lica-
tion conies up for consideration. They consider the ai)plication and the character of the
transfere(; just as carefully as they do an aiiplication for an ori;,'inal license ; so, unless
the man is a respectable man who, in the opinion of the Court, is tit anfl pro])er to hold
a licen -e, the application is not jii'anted. It is wronj^ to say that any license holder can
liold his licens(! absolutely and without danf^er of its boinj^ revoked.
401<)(). Unless he violates the law ; -If he is reported against, the Commissioners
will re\-oke thi; license.
10107. l>ut thei'e are not many vicjlations of the law? — Xo. As a class the sjdooii
and hotel-keepers are a resjiectable lot of men.
40168. Have you reason to believe that illicit sale takes place? — I have no reason
to think so.
401fi9. Ha\\eyou reason to think that it does not?— Fidm my [jersonai knowledge
I know of no illicit selling beyond tliat of sale to aborigines in the district occasionally,
and I nmst say that that crim(> has been on the increase latterly.
40170. 8till you did have certain conviction.s, fourteen, I think, you said ?— Yes,
fourteen convictions : they were all, however, infractions of the new Sunday law.
10171. They were (|uaslied ( — They were (juashed : but the law can be amended by
sim|ply inserting a clause defining a honii fide traveller.
4017L'. fs it your experience, asa License Coimnissioner, that coinictions for illicit
selling are generally (juashed in this province, when they go on appeal to the Supreme
Court I- -Certainly not. f take it that if a conviction is cpiashed or upheld, it is simply
a mattei- of law and not of fact.
4017."^. You, as a Connnissioner, and tlu; Board had no doidjt whatever that viola-
tions took place in those foui'teen eases ? I may state th.it the C(mnnissioners had nothing
to do with tills mattei. I was sitting as Magistrate, and 1 and my brother Magistrate
who sat with me, came to this conclusion : tlu; law does not define what is n /imin Jir/i-
tra\eller, therefore it is 'pft to the Magistrate to decide whether those people who
obtained li(iuor were bmui fide travellers or not. We decided that they wcsre not, and
therefore convicted them.
40174. Do you think, as a License Commi.ssioner, that it would bo an improvement
in the license law if licensed {)laces were obliged to close at night i — At what time i
40175. Say from 10 or 11 o'clock until the next morning? — I have always been of
the opiinon that they should close, decidedly so.
40170. I suppose they are not recjuired to close at all except from Saturday night
until ^londay ? — I believe that is the case.
40177. They can be open all night other days? — Yes.
40178. Would it be an achantage if there was a cei'tain iiour for closing ti.xed ? —
There is such a \a\\ in (ireat I'litain, and it is most rigidly enforced and answers \ery
m
1, i
4017!^t. And it is also in every other part of the country where the licen.se law is in
force? — Yes. I do not see the use of keeping .saloons open all night; people do not
\vant to drink all night.
40180. Does the trade need to b<? regulated ?—Y'es.
40181. Why? — I think it should be regulated simply because it is one of tlio.se
peculiar trades whicii recpiires to be carefully watched inord(!r to keep it in jiroper order.
i'iiikin<
that
-1 <1
40182. What is its peculiarity ?— Its tendency is to excess!
is one of its glaring peculiarities.
4018,'5. You have stated that drunkenness is the r(!sult of the drink trade
not see how it could be otherwise.
40184. You ar(> a mercliant, I believe? — Y'^es.
40185. In what line ? — 1 am a shipi)iiig merchant, a comuiission merchant and an
insurance agent.
l^oHKHT Wahd.
626
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
401HI). Ai't! you ail auotiuutH!!' .' — We arc fiiiaiirial ageiits.
'1-0187. I>i) you receive (•()iisi;;iiiiiniits of lii|uui' a.s a eoniuiissioii meivliaut .' -It' I
received a eoiisif^iiineiit of li(|U(>r I would turn it over to soinelMidy else, for I do not
deal ill li<|Uor. I may say tliat many years lia\n eiajised since I ;is a cumini.shsoii mer
cliant iiandleil licjuor ; in fact I do not hold a license.
lOlHS, liut commission merdiants handle lic[uor, I suppose? — A commission iner
ciiant wlio liandles li(iuor must have, in addition to his license as a merchant, a speciiil
licenst^ for li(iuors.
40 1 Si). Do merchants here hold licenses ,' -Yes, you will tint I a list of licensed trades,
etc., in the Munici|)al Act. The wholesale merchant pays so much. I think .•<lUO, the
retail inerclwint pays less and tiie different trades are elassilied.
101'.)U. Then the amount of lic(>nses is distinct? -[t is a special matter,
•tOlill. .May I ask you why several years ago you went out of the liquor husincirs (
JfljiiK .MrUON'AId). -AVitness, you can use you own discretiou in regard toanswcr-
ing that (|uestion.
WITNKS.S. — It is a personal matter, hut [ lia\e not the least objection to answering
that ((Uestion.
Ukv. Dli. ^[cTJE()l). — You did not need the protection of the Chair, then;
WrrXESS. — I thank tlnKy'hairman for ins action, liecause that is a matter pcisonal
to myself. [t was very kind of him to state that it was a personal matter, for of course
I might have had personal n\isons for not answering tin' c|Ui'stion. l>ut, as it is, I ha\t'
no j)eisonal reasons. It was sim]ily a trade in which I took no personal interest, and
n<»t having any interest in it, I knocked it oflFa.s a branch which we did not intend to
follow.
-lOli)!.'. .My l)urpose in asking that (juestion was to ascertain whether voiir course
might lie regarded as iiulicating a change in jiublic sentiment in regard to the liijuor
trade .' -Xoni.' whatever. It was not that -it all. it was simply because it was a business
in which 1 took no interest, and I never had any fancy for it.
401 !•.'). Fiave you, as a business man, observed how the liipior tratlic affects various
interests connected with it : for instance, the social life of the ])eop!e. I )oes it allect
those interests beneiicially or injuriously .' Considering the numlier of drunks brought
before the court, J do not ciuisider that socially there is any serious injury done to the
cominuiuty. Comparing large cities with small, 1 do not think that X'ictoria has an
unfavourable record in that dii(;ction.
40194. 1)(KNS the linuor tratlic materially elevate people /—That is a (|Uestioii which
I am ]ierliaps unable to answer. 1 cannot .search into a maits conscience or into his
feelings, and I do not know how it atl'eels the moral feelings of the iieople who drink.
If a man drinks to excess, it is to be regretted very much.
401'.).^. Does the drink trade affect the moral conditioii of the community at large'?
— I should say not. I do not think drinking is carried on in this city to .ane.xtent that
such an eti'ect is produced on the community in any v.ay.
4019C). Does it allect injuriously or beneiicially the other branches of business in
the community ?--That is a very far reaching ([uestion too, because all matters of trade
Ijy which money is circulatc^l must benefit every oii(> more or less, and of cou'.se it isdifli-
cult to say where the circulation of that money will end.
401i)7. Does the licjuor trade circulate or absorb money .' — 1 should say boili.
4011)S. Which chiell}' I — It alisorbs a certain amount of money which drinking men
pay int(') it ; but, on the other hand, the money must be circulated.
4019'J. IJy whom ! — By the per-sonswho receive the moiH^y for a maiis liipior. I
do not assume that they keep it in a stocking.
40200. Does the liipior trade circulate the money as freely as the people would do
if they did not patronize the liipior trade? I think the man who sells liipior or anything
else if he makes money, and is intelligent, will use the money so as to beiielit hijiiself,
while at the same time it benetits the cijiiinmiiity.
40201. Have you ob.served whether any proportion of t lie poverty of the community
is traceable directly or indirectly to the liipior trade and the liipior habit ? 1 cannot
deny that poverty and crime may result from excessive drinking, but in my ojiinion I do
not think that sort of thing prevails in the niajoritv of cases, onlv in individual cases.
527 '
Si!
m m
::;!-;:>'
Liquor Tiallic — British ("oluinbia.
Yon me Ixmnd to luivc iiiiuiy (•oiniiiiiiiil y ciisrH « licrc drink Ims lumiiflil I lie dririkiT lu
poverty : tliat, i>t' coui'.sc, caiiiiot he denied.
KJ202. Is tliat of tiie same eliaiiu'ter ! I l)elie\e e.\uessi\c sriiiikiii^' lias \eiy siniiliir
' pH\?ct9 ; I do not go in very inueli for smokin;; myself.
■l()20;i. |)o yon tliink excessive sniokin;; prodnces the same elleei> as exeessixc
diinkini,' I - No.
Kl"Jll|. Then do yon know any otlier trade |ii'o(hiein;; the same etlects that i-^
lejfishited for and protected in tliis eomitry as is tlic; lii|Uor trade, speaking i)ro(idlv .' I
must ask you to speak hroadly, an regarfls the effects to wliieh you refer.
lOl'O."). The effects you have in your miiul yourself, as to the liipior trade lieini.' a
jx'cidiar trade iieedin!,M-e;^ulation ? — You ask me whether I know of any other trade
that re(|uii'es re;,'ulatiiii; the same as <loes the li(|Uoi' trade .'
tUliOC). Yes. — I could mention ail articles of food, ftir instance : the adulteration of
food and such thing's are matters that riM'cive as much attention.
40'207. Is there any otiier trad(' that sid)mits to the satiie rej,'ulations and restric
tions ? — I think so. 'I'lut general trades of the Dominion have to suhmit to re;;ulations.
Take the case of any class of Ljoods. They are all re(|uired to pay duties, ;ind the\- ha\e
to j^o throuj^h certain foi'uis on lieing impoi'led, and persdus to sell those j^'oods lia\e to
pay licenses. I know there is not so much ditficulty ahoul ohtaiuinu'' a license to m'II
soap, if that is the point you wish to j;et at.
4U'20S. r want to see the diliiirence hetween those trades .' Yes : perhajis the -^ale
of linen is not so profitalile as the sale of li(|Uoi'.
•lOl.'0'.l. |)o you put tlu! soaj) traile and the lii|U<ir trade on the same hasis .' No,
they are diU'erent trades.
40210. Why is tlu^ li(|Uor trade under re;,'ulations which do not olilain ayainst the
soap trade '!^I have already j,'i\en an answer to that ipicstion.
4021 1. Ts it a peculiar trade ?- Yes, it is a )>eculiar trade.
4021'J. Is it peruliar hccause it produces peculiar ell'ects ? - 1 have said that the
li(pior ti'ade reipnres to be refjulated. and I have always maintained it, hecause it is
surrouiuled hy incidents which cro]) upfront time to time and which reijiure to he
watched carefully by the authorities in order that tlu^ trade siiail be properly and
respectably conducted, smujiulint;, eti-., disorderly con.luct on the part of the holder nf
the license, and permittinu; disordcM'ly conduct in the house of the licensee.
4021.'i. So the drink trade pioduees disorders uliicli are not proiluced i)y other
trades .'- T deem that the licpior trade, uidess proj)!'! ly rej,'ulated, mif,dit drop into thai.
40'_M 1. Does the license .system re,i;ulate the trade? — I think so.
40l!lo. Why, thiMi, are disorders produced? T do not say that there would lie no
disorder, althouu;li, as T said, i do not recollect in my experience of any conviction Ix'in^
passed for disorderly coiuluct in a bar-room oi' licensed hous(< in Victoria.
402 1 (). Do you assume that because there has b(>en no conviction for disorder in a bar
ro(nu, there is none in bar-rooms? — T must assume that, because, as [ told you, wheiu'ver I
have been on the Licensini; Hoard T have always made it a point to put (|uestions to the
])()licemen u])on that very point, and the Sujieriiitendent of Tolice. if he were here, woidd
no doubt contirm my ojiinion on those matters, because I have been very particular in
regafd to them.
40217. Your objection to prohibition, I understand, is to the principle : youflonni
approve of the principle?- T believe that by enacting; a proldbitory law there would l>e
more druid'jenness in this province.
102IS. You think prohibition wnuld bi- conducisc to drunkeimess ? 1 think .<o.
My object, and I say it oiu'e aj,'ain, is, lookiiiLf at both sides of this very yreat (piestioii,
to see that this trade is so regulated as not to l)e an ollenci' oiu' way or the otlier.
trade.
Bi/ Judyc JfcBona/tl :
40210. You have been asked to draw a parallel Ijetween this trade and the scrap
IIev. Du. McfjI'^OD. — -The witness suggested the soaj) trade.
IIOUKHT Wa1!I).
528
m.:
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liil ./iiil.jr MrD.mdIil :
Mtl'l'l). I prt'siiinc unless the li(|n()i- li'atlic wiis ;i pt'iMiliar tradi', u ('oiiiinission
imkIit tlie ;^i<'Jit seal iif (':tnii<lii would liiinlly Ix^ fippoititcd to iiixcstigiilf it, nnd liiivcl
all ovt'i' ('fiimdii ! Kxiu'tly. In t'tict [ may t-xpluiii my ignoraiiw by sayiiin- tliat I did
not know tliat sucli a Comndssion was appointi'd, until uc n^ad it comiiafativcly rrccntiv
ill the nt'ws|)a|ifrs.
Kll'l-'l. hidanuai'V, |S'.I|, tin' House ot' Cominons passed a lesoluiion in ta\iiur or'
sueli a C'ounnission heiii;; appointed. It was certaiidy considered I liat the ii(|uoi' trade
i'e(|uired to he iiivesti;;atod as to its sufi'oundiiii,' condit ioiisf Yes.
K)l!l!l.'. Takini; the people of ISritish ('olinid)ia as you know them, is the prnpintiorj
lit' the people that drink to excess lai'ge of small I- N'ei'v small.
ID'JlJ'l. We should he pleased to receixc any suifiiestions that you could make in
le^Mi'd to the lii|uor trade. f think my exaiiunation has fully coNereil the points on
when 1 shoidd lia\e spoken had I had time pefsonally to consider the (|Uestion. I oniv
feeeived the suunnons yesterday, and I certaiidy j^ave no serious consideration to the
tpiestions which miifht he personally asked iiip. T cudy jotted down a few notes this
moi'iunt;. \ think you have touched upon all of those points, hut 1 should he \ery ;rlad,
if it is considered desirahle, to gi\e further eviden< e and testimony.
ALHXAN'DEIJ- CH(KjUKTTK of F,.rt \ViaM.i.ell, .\laska, l'.S..\., ,m iicin- duly
sworn, dt'posed as follows:
/j// Jinhji' McDotnihl :
40l.'li4. What is your business or occupation .' —I am a tiader with the Indians.
40225. How loiij,' have you lived at Fort Wran^ell ? -Five years.
40226. "Where did you live before you went tliere ! - < >n the Stickeen IJiver, Itiitish
Columbia.
40227. ^\'hel■e did you li\'e before you went to the Stickeen Kiverf -I li\cd in
N'ictoria a couple of years.
4022S. ,Vud where did you live before that / In California.
4022!t. You are a Califoruian .'-Yes.
4()2.'{0. What law is in force at Fort ^^'l•anfi;ell in regard to the sale of licpior ; is
there any law allowing li(|Uor to be sold there .' —No.
402."51. Is it contrary to law to sell li(|Uor there ?-- Yes.
40232. Can liquor be obtained there .' Y^'s. Almost all tiic timi'.
402.'J.'1. What kinds of liijuor d<i you obtain.' All kinds, .lam.iica rum. iiraiidy, yin,
whisky and all kinds.
40234. l)o th(> peojtle use thos(> li(|uors .' ^'es, they do.
40235. How do they get them if it i.s against the law to sell liijuors .' Thai is more
that- I can tell you.
4023(). Have you seen those li(|Uoi-s there? -Yes.
40237. Is lii|uor opeidy sold ? — Y'es.
4023S. How large a ])lace is Fort Wrangell ] There are few white people there,
about 30 all told.
40239. Are there any stores f — There are four store.s.
40240. Is li(|Uor sold in the stores ? — No.
40241. Where i.s it sold .'--In the saloon.s, tliere are three saloons.
40242. Do they sell li(|Uor to other than to white people .' Not that I know of.
4024.3. Is there no lloating jiopulation passing through tin; territoric^s? Yes, tliert-
are a great many.
40244. Do the saloons sell to them ?- Yes.
4024.5. By the glass /—Yes.
402415. What is the price of liipior there? 25 cents a drink.
529
21 34**
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WEBSTER, NY. 14580
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Liquor Tmttic — British Columbia.
40-47. Alt' there iniiiiy stores .'— Tliere are 15 stdivs.
4024H. Is the li(|Uor 8<il«l of gtxMl i|utiUty ! Very g«j<Ml.
40249. Y«ju «lu not know where it eonie.s from / — No.
40"J"»0. Is there no Cu«toni.s-hou8e ? Theiv was formerly a iJeputy Miiiiihnl, Itiii
then- is none at present.
40l'"»I. Does nolKMly l<M»k ;iftci- tlie enforeement of the law ? There is a CominiN
sioner.
lOL'.'j'i. What <loe« he tlo? lie looks after nnythinj^ uf that kind : he attends to
all the trouliies that occur.
40253. DcK's he try to stop the sale? Yes.
40254. Can he not succmmhI in doinjj so / lie has never done it yet.
40255. Do you know any other place in Alaska territory f - There is .liineau.
40250. Hav«' you heen there ! Yes.
40257. How lai'j{e a place is it ! There aiv Iti stores.
4025H. Any sal<Mins / AIhuu 11 or 15.
4025!t. Do they sell liipior ? Yes, o|K'nly and over haiN.
402<iO. Are tin-re no ollicers there ( Then- are Deputy Marshals.
402<>l. (!nnno( they enforce the law '. — It ap()ears not.
402(52. Do they try to do so! They have trit-d several times, hut they have not
stop|)ed the triMle.
402<'>'V Are the people who live in the town mostly jM-ople who take whisky ? ~—
They are mostly people who take it : most of them ai-e miners.
40204. Are most of the people at Fort Wranfjell |MH>ple who drink?— Yes.
4t/205. Then tln-re are very few out of the 'M) whites who do not tlrink ? -Yes.
4020(1. An- tliere any other im|)ortatil places in Alaska? There is Sitka, the heiwl
({Uarters for Alaska traders.
40207. Have you I teen tliere? Yes.
4020K Is litpior sold there f— Yes.
4020J). Is no <-ffort made to ntop the side .' There have U-en many efforts to stop
it by Deputy Marshals, and they have trieyj to stop the sale of li(|Uor to Indians.
40270. Do you think tin- United States otKcials have honestly trietl t«> stop the
traffic? -Y'es. 1 really think so.
40271. Do you think they are unable to do so? They are unable to (h> so.
40272. What is the |)opular sentiment aliout the sale : do the |)eople wish li<pioi'
to l)e Hf)ld? They wish to have it sold.
40273. There is no licensi- law, of course? No.
40274. The law is a prohibitory one? Yes.
40275. Then |M-ople should not sell, of course '. Yes.
40270. Is there much sale of licpior to Indians ? -That I could not tell. Th''
Indians manufacture most of their own liijuor.
40277. How «lo they manufacture it?
which cause fermentation.
4027'^. What appliances do they use?
themselves.
4(l27'.t. Of what are tho,se n«ade ?— Of tin.
40280. What kinds of licpior do they make ?
mola.s.ses.
402H1. Is it very strong? — Yes, and jMiwerful.
402H2. What ettect has it <m theuj ! It makes them like lunatics.
4028.'}. Is it pahitabh- .' Yes, but of great strength. I have tnsted it my.self and mi
I know what it is.
4028 1. Did yt)u lind it vi-iy str<»ng? Yes.
40285. Do you know whether any of this li(|uor luis ever l»een analystnl by the
local analyst? No, T <lo not think it has.
4028(5. I should like to Im- able to submit .some of this liipior U» the Government
analyst. I eouhl easily send some to the Commission.
40287. The Commission will l»e very glad if you will send a sealed Itottle?- Yes; I
t;an get a Imttle at almost any time.
Alkzanokk CliOqUKTTK.
680
With molasses, hops and other articles
They use small stills, which they make
\'ery g<Mid licpior : it is water jiikI
57 Victoria.
Seesional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4()'_'HH. Hi»\v Ik tli»' mnditioii of tln^ |(e<i|>l<> iiilami, Imck tVoni the ma.Ht '. Tlit-ri' is
Telegriipli Cn'(*k, jiikI tlicr** is ii ii(ius<< tlieri* tliiit sells lii|iiiir.
402Hi). Is it nwir tin- I'liitcd Sutes ? It is in Hritisli Ciiluiiihiii ; it is ii littuM.d
llllUMU.
4()'290. }lii\f you Im'cii in tlic nottln'm lountrv iM-vond Mritisli Coiuniltiii. on tlic
nortlii'rn iHiundui V .' -I iiiivt- ni'vcr U'fii t'urtlnT tliiin Cliilinit UiviT nnd Klurc I'my.
% AVc. Dr. M,Lfi„i :
4021H. Is siilf to Iridiims proliihittHlf Yes.
\K)'l\)'l. Does imylHHly sell to tliein \ I nevt-r lould tdl, liiit it is sii|i|>os»'d tiicy do,
ln'riiusu \v(> oouasionitlly tind intoxicated Indians.
4029;{. Do tin* ollii'crs who >wk snpjxtscd to enfoivf tlu- law also drink '. I do not
know.
402!M. What makes it impossible for the oflicers to enforce the law ; what ohstrue-
tions do the |M'ople present f The enforcement, of course, de|M-nds on the otiicials sent
from \Vashinf;ton. They are sent over to till positions, and they do not care whethei-
they carry out their instructioii.s or not.
40l.'y"i. You mean so lonj; as they yet their salaries; ^'es ; they come to tliMt
country to make money more than anything else.
By Judy Mclinnnlil :
4U'J'J*i. We I ave it in evidi-nce to-iluy that lit|Uor is sent to Alaska in cariioes of
liutter. Have yoii .seen anythin<;of that/ Yes. A ^.'rftat many years a|[;o it came in
eorn«'<l U'ef liarr'els. They could put lU ;!allons in a liarrel of corneii heef.
40297. l>o you mean spirits/ Yes.
% J{>;: Dr. Mc Lead:
4()2'.'i^. I supjKtse if then- was corne<l lieef there would lie corned Indian and corned
trader and the like there/ Yes.
\ ^■■
\<»AH .SHAKKSl'EAMK. of Yictoiia, on iM'ing <luly sworn, ileposed as follows: —
Jiy ,/udye M.'Domtid :
4U2'.>'.(. What position do y«»u occupy / I am Postmaster of the city.
40."U)U. How lonj{ have you lived in Victoi-ia / I arrived here in iJ^tJ'-'.
40.501. I'rom where/ -From Kn^diuid.
4U.'«)-. When you came here, I suppose a license law was in force ! Yes.
4U'{0.'5. Has it In-en in force tner since /■ Yes.
40.5O4. How ilfK's it Work / <)f i'our.se the licen.se law has U'cn cliaii;;cd finm limt*
to time since then.
40.'{((r». Take it as it is now : (Iik's it work .satisfactorily / -As a license law it works
all right, I presume.
iOiUjfi. Are you yourself favouralile to license' I am ie)t.
40307. Are you favourable to prohibition / Yes.
40.'W8. As a principle / Y'es.
40.'<0y. Are you oppo.sed on jirinciple to the lieensin;; of the liipior trade? ^'e.s.
40.U0. Do you think it wi'ong / — 1 do.
JO.'U I. If you could not have prohibition I supixi.se you wduld prefer licen.se to i ..
trannnelled sale, oi- would you rather have untranunelle*! sale? If 1 could not have pio-
hibition, I would take the next U-st thing.
40.'Ul?. Do you think license the lu^xt best thing? I pi-nsunie if there was im pro-
hibition, there must 1m* license.
40:U.'J. Not always. Charlottetown has neitlier prohibition nor lieens*'. The people
repvale<l the Scott Act, and the present L«'gislature would not pas.-i » license law. The
531
21- 34***
Liquor Trattic — Uritish Columbia.
(•<(nse(|uenee is iit Clmrlottntowii thi^iv is unlimited sale, aubjeet to |H)liee iv^ulations, mid
the men may ^ell without paying a fee. Prohibition would l>e your first ehoiee ?- Yes.
40.'{| I. Tako license or untrammelled sale, whi<"h would y<m prefer ?- Limiting (lie
nundHM' of licenses.
tO:n5. And having a certain fee? — Yes.
40.'n«i. So you look uiKjn license as the next l)est thing to prohiliition ?— Yes.
»():U7. To regulate the trade? - Yes.
40.'ll>^. As regards the regulation of the trade in this country, from y<iur ol»sei-\ii
tion and ex|)erience could you suggest any amen«hnents to the present law ? The law
as it existe<l last year was Ix'tter, in my opinion, than it is this year. LmhI year it was
really local option, but at the last sessiim of the Legislature an amenihnent was intm-
(lucetl to the Municipal Act, which provided that in cases of hotels having r<M)nis nuni-
U'ring 'M, it was not necessary for them to get a certain |)ercentage of jn-ople in tin-
bItK'k around the hotel to sign n petition to have the license granted. They simply make
application to the Licensing Board, and it is left to the judgment of the Hotird whether
they shall In* granted a license or not. That, I think, is a step backwards.
403 1!>. You think a retention of the old law recpiirement by which a certain iiuni
Im'I- of signatures were re«|uire«l is better? Yes, in order that the people siiould have ;i
voice in saying whether a license should be grante<l or not in a pa!'ticular locality.
40."120. You say then' is a sjiecial regulation with i-egani to hotels that liaxt* ■'!(»
It M tins or more?-- Yes.
40.*V21. Was that intended to make it easier for hotels that had a large nuiniM-r ot
travellers and tourists? It was made, I think, in the interest of the li(|uor trade.
40.'V_'2. It is limited to those places, I suppo.se / Ye.s.
40.'{23. How many such htitels have you in Victoria ? -There arc .< such Imttls ai
least that make application for license.
tO.'124. I supiK)se to a certain extent one of those hotels is favoun'd at the extent nt'
another? -Yes.
40.'l'jr). That is to say that an hotel with 25 rooms must fulfil certain rci|uiri'
ments while an hotel with .'U iiKtms has a lietter )Misition ?- -Yes. The applicant tor m
simple license for his house is obliged to go through certain forms and is conipelli'd
to obtain a certain j)er<'entage of the names of people in the block in which the buildini;
is situat«Ml for which a license is sought.
40;$2<5. Y()U are not a memlwr of the L«3gislature, 1 sup|>ose? — No.
40.'127. You have no knowli-dge as to the reasons put forward for this change beini.;
niiuh'? No, lj«'cause I am not a memlM'r of the Ij«'gislature.
4032H. Have you reason to iM-lieve that there is much unlicensed sale ■"• this city '.
-I have no reason to Iwlieve it.
4032!). In case of the enactment of a |>rohil>itory law for the r)ominion, a law to
prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic li<iuorsfor iM'veriige pur|H)ses.
do vou think it would Ih' lU'acticable to enforce such a law ? My own opinion is that
the people of liritish Columbia are not in favour of it.
403.'U). Then do you bi'lieve, supposing nuch a law were pas.se<l for the whole <rounlry.
and the jwople of British t'oluuibia weif not in favour of it, the tide of public
opinion would set in against the enforcement of it? — I think so.
403.31. In case of the enactment of such a law, do you think that brewers and dis-
tillers should l»e comjM'nsatetl for their loss of plant and machinery? That is a <|uestion
that has Ix'eii talked over a good deal. I must say that my own feeling is, and I cannul
get awav from the impression, that some remuneration should Im' miide to those persons
who have erecte<l buildings and put in expensive machinery as reijuirerl by law.
403.32. We understand that the law reijuires distillers to keep their stm-k for twi>
years for purposes of ifctification ? -Yes.
40333. Aim! are also com)ielled to carry out certain departmental regulations ai d
to pi-ovide machinery from tii.ie to time, and that this may Im- changed from time t<>
lime by order of the department? -Yes.
4(3334. It has specially l)een in reganl to compensation for plant that this ijuestion
has iH'en put. -Yes.
Noah Hhakkhhk.mjk.
532
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1»94
40.'t:t.'>. Yiiu tliink ii fait- reiiiuncration sluiuUI Ih> made? — Yes.
ny H>v. Dr. McLeod :
40.'{;i((. During tlie 30 years you Jiavc Ix-eii licif, liave you iiotit-ecl ui»y cliiingc in
till' <lrii)kiiig lialiitN of the people of this province f Yes, \ tliink the teniptianef sen-
timent has gained in the province especially, during the last fi or 7 years.
40.'1M7. You have said that you do not think the feeling of the people is in fiixour
of prohilntion. Do you think the f<'eling in favour of it is growing? 1 think so deci-
.ledly.
40338. 1 understand you are a License Coniniissioner f — Yes.
40339. Does the fact couie to the atUuition of your Hoard that licensees an* violat-
ing the law to any extent, the Hunday law for instance? -No. Since the law has In-en
in force there have l)een two cases on which I as one of tiie Justices of the Peace
sat, and in Ixfth convictions were n'.idered. Those are the only two cases I know of,
except those cases to which Mr. WanI has referred.
40340. Were the convictions quashed? -The cases were ap]K-aled and were (|uasiied
ill the higher court.
40341. Mr. Ward thinks that under the pn*sent law Victoria has practically Iwal
option. You appear to differ from that opinion. I)o you think the amendment made
last session to the law was n<it in the direction of local opinion I Not to the extent we
had it last year. I presume Mr. Wai-d did not rememher the amendment ; he li.nd |iro-
liably forgotten it.
4034'2. Is the system the s^ime, except witii regard to hotels ha\ ing 30 riMuns ' -
Yes, I think so.
4034.3. .\re we correct in our impression, at least it is my impression, that there are
certain premises license*!, and that the licenses are in perp'tiiity unless some \ iolation
occurs ', Mr. Ward seemed to have a different ojiinion. There is no ipiestioii about it.
If a pfM-son hius obtained a license it is kept on for all time, unless sonic chai-gf is
brought against the licensee for violation.
40344. Do you know of any case in which the license has bveii taken away from
the licensee? 1 know of none, except the case of the theatre to which Mr. Ward has
rcfernnl.
1034.'». That was last year I Itelieve ? Yes.
40.34f>. Do you think that, since such right of license applies t<» certain premises in
pci-petuity, there is a tendency to <leal with such parties leniently evi-n when they do
\ iolate the law f 1 think that would Im- the tendency.
40.347. Have the people under the jiresent law no voice after the license is once
granted? No, unless there is a violation of the law and the license would then be can
celled.
40348. Then that is the only thing '. Ves.
40349. Do you lu'lievc with your knowledge of X'ictoria. that if all those
places were subjected to the Itical option clause of the license law. then- would l;i' fewer
licenses granted than now .' ^'es.
40350. Is there no .way in which this condition of affairs may be remedied ! I think
if licensed houses were compelle<l to apply for renewals every year, and the jieople bail a
voice as to granting those licenst's, the number would lie reduced veiy materially.
403.")1. Do yiai think there is any way of I'emedying this particular state of things
rxcept by obtaining the withdrawal of the li<-ense ? I suppose it cmild 1h' done by
legislation.
403.")'J. Then, of course, the ijuestion of compensation would arise .' 1 do not know
\\\\\ it should, and it would Ix- more through usage than anything el.se.
40.3.J3, How do you think such a state of things came to jin-vail here? It came, I
siipjMise, owing to no one interfering as regards licenses, and to parties holding licenses
coming up at the end of the year and paying their fees and nothing iM-ing said aUnit it.
The practice has been kept on up t« the pivsent tinu-.
403,")4. Aie there any Chinese hohiing licenses? — Not that I am aware of.
I03,*»r». Do they take intoxicating drinks to any extent,' They have fliinese
biandv, which some of them diiiik to some extent.
633
HI
Liquor Trartic — British Columbia.
Kj;5."it). Is it as iiitoxii'iitiii;; us wliisky ? Vest.
lO.S.'tT. Yuu say tliiil tlu-y ilo iidt lioltl lict-nst's ! Nut timt. I uiii awai«' of.
|(_>:{r)S. Have you <il)scr\t'<l during; all your yi'ars of rt'sidfiicf Ihtc tlif rHVi-t of tin-
drink trallic and the; drink tradt- on tht- social lif<> of the i-oiiniuinity, svIu'IIkt it lias
Immmi ({(mkI or )>ad ? — 1 tliink had.
4().'5.")Jt. And what lias liccii its efl'oct on the husincss interests ot ihc province I li
has iM'cn aj;aiiist the husiiiess interests of the province in many respects. People have
spent money in a way that they should not ; and, of course, liusiness has snfl'ered untdii
ally.
40.'{f>0. |)oyou tliink a proliil>it<iry law for Canada, fairly weii enforced, would In-
U-neticial to the l)usine.ss interests and social intei'csts of the community .' I d(» not sec
why it should not.
Bi/ J inly Milhiiiuhl :
W.\Ct\. What do you mean l>y fairly well enforced .' If it is well enforced.
% /{,r. Dr. M< hoif :
WMVl. Do you mean enforced like other laws?— Yes.
4UHG.'$. Looking; at the very complete rejiort of the Chief of Police of the city, in
which lie distinguishes oH'ences committed hy all other persons than fndians and Chinese
during' I8!H, it appears that only one Chinaman was charged with Ix-infj drunk and only
one convicti'd for hein;; drunk, namely, that one |>ci'son. That fact I'onveys the idci
that there was very little drunkenness amonu the Chinese .' 'X\w Chinese are very smart
|)eople. They not only escape the law in that rej,'ard hut in many resjK'cts that tiic
whit« man d(H>s not.
•I03G4. You think that when they do drink to excess they do not come within lli'
range of tin |Milice .' I think a great deal of their drinking is done in their iiomes.
.FOHN M. TiANOLEY. of N'ictoi'la, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows :
lijf Jiiihji- Mi-DniuthI :
WM\h. What |Hisition do you occupy ? I .-im Sergeant of the (Sovernment I'oiirr
for the Province of JJi'itish ('ohind>ia.
tO.'iCif). How long have \ ou I'esided in the province .'I was lM)rn heie.
t(>."U)7. Have you always lixtMJ here? Xo. 1 li\ed II years in Ciilifornia in iii\
younger days.
40;$*)^'. How long have you lieen sei-geant <if jiro\ incial police? Since ISSl). Vw
viousto tliat time, from IHS.S, I was deputy .sergeant and a provincial |M>lice otKcer.
40.'tGy. What is the strength of the police force, how many men? — There are aliout
40 men throughyut the Province.
40.'i70. What are their duties .' To liMik after the criminal and li(|Uor laws.
40;J7I. Do you act in cases of crime connnitted. such ;is nnirder, hurglary, assault.
eU-. >. Yes.
10372. Are you also a detecti\e force ? Yes.
10.17.'{. Do you attenti to any municipal ca.ses? No.
40.'{74. Then you an* really a pro\'incial constahulary .'--Yes.
40.'{75. Do you take notit'e of breaches of the peace and anything of that kimi^'
—Yes.
4037fi. Who is commander of the force .' V. Hussey is superint«*ndent.
40377. Have you anytliing to do with the enforcement of the license law in \ ii
toria ? — Yes.
NOAII HllAKKSPK.MiK.
534
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
40.t7H. Ynii assist tin- niuiiicipiil |M<licc .' Vi-s.
40.'l7y. I)i) you l(M»k iit'tt-r the <>iif<tri-cin<>iit ut' the .Vet in thf lunil district*? — Yes.
40.'{H0. How iiiHiiy liccnst'tl jihu-cs arc there in the rural (hstnets? I roiihl not siiv
witliout ret'errinj,' to tiie ImmiIis.
40.'5HI. Are then' niunv .' Yes. there iir*- a ;;i-eat nii«,ny.
4().SK2. Is Nanainio within your distrifl.' -Yes, the distriit is.
40.'{H.'J. Is New Weslniinster a niuuici|)iility 1 — Yes.
41I.SSI. Mow (hi you tinil tlie hcense law work? — Very well in the eountrv distriets.
4().'1H."». Can you su;,';{est any atuun<luients to it f I ean not.
lO.'JHIi. Do you at present tind the restrictions and re^juiatious >it' the law sulli
eient? No.
4031^7. What others wciuld you have proxided? The present law in regani to
elosini{ on Sunday does not work. We arrested ipiite a iiunilM-r of parties when the law
was lirst •Mit'oreed and ohtained a few convictions, hut they wi-re upset on appeal.
40MHH. We understotHi from ^^^. Ward that the i|in'slions antse on ap|N>al as to
what constitutes -v luiini Jiilr traveller.' That was the point.
40.H.'<!t. Do you desire an amendment to that lasv delininji what a //<-/«(//»/< iravell. r
i- .' Tiiat .\'ou!d i)e lietter.
40.'<fK). Did ytiu find any of the j)ersons to whom sale was made'and who claimed
to Ik? hitnn full- travellers were people who woulil drive out of the city for the day. visit,
hotels in the country, jjet drunk and when their cases were jirosecuted, they would
plead tliey were Ikhiu Ji<lr travellers f- Yes.
40."H(1. Did the court hold that such persons were /mini Jliii' travellers (It did.
40.'{92. I sup|K»se you think that the law should he amended liy the l.,e>;islature
and a fmiiti jliir traveller should be clearly defined .' Yes : the law should Ih- madeclttar
one way or another.
4031t.'{. .Vre there any other points of ditlitulty with it ?-— No ; that is all.
4(>.'t!>4. Do you travel about the country a f^tnid deal ,' I do, that is on N'ancouver
island ; 1 do not pt on the mainland much further than to New Westminster.
40.'li)r». .\r«' you favcnirable to the license system .' Yes.
40.39(>. Are you in favour of prohibition / - 1 am not.
40.'l!)7. Do you tiiink if a jirohibitory law were passed, it couU! Ite enforced ? -I rlo
not think sn.
lO.'MJS. In what way do you fancy it would fjiil ?- If a man wants to drink he
Nv ill ;;et it.
lO.'iyi*. Have you fear of sniu;^<;linj,' and illicit stills/ Yes.
40400. In case of the passafje of a )j;eiieral |>roliibitory law, do you think it rii;ht
that brewers and distillers shotild receive compensatimi for loss of plai>t and machinery .'
I do.
Jii/ Bei: Dr. Mrhml :
10401. Do you think the license law. from your observation of it, really regulates
till' trade '.- Yes.
4040'J. How did you account for those cases of violation and the con\ ictions to
which y<m have referred ?- I think when people go into a country lliey should know
something about the law, and when they go in to chink the saloon-keeper sliould have
some idea as to where the visitur came fntin. and know that a man who doi-s not tra\cl
over five miles has no right to obtain liipior on Sunday.
4010."$. You think that the .saloon keepers are aware that people {lri\f out of tin-
city Gvery Sunday to obtain it.' — Yes, I think they do.
40404. Is it your ob.servation that licensees violate the law when they gel a fair
chance? — No, not always, some will not do it.
4040."). Is there niucli drinking in the rural ilistricts of the province? No; there
is a giMMl deal among the Indians.
4040(). Do they get it for the most jiart ? I have found latterly that they make it
themselves.
40407. Do you know any licensees who sell to Indians ? — There have been three or
four convictions.
535
i I
\:\
% :
I ;
Liquor TraflFic — Uritish ('olunil)iii.
40M)H. Tlu'n the liociiw Ihw fiiils t-«i leKulnte the tnule in thosp ra>-<'s? Y«'m.
4040*.). Hiiv)' you obNerved if it is tru«> that it' it iiwin wnnts iliiiik, lie will nvt it
(luring pntliibittHl hourH or nut ( — I think he will get it. if ho wishi-s it.
40410. If he wants it on Sunday will he get it?- He will geta IkihU-. He will
g*'t a iNittlt* liefor'e the Haloon cloHes.
40411. l>oeH he Hnd some people holding licenses who will sell to him on Sunday
l<K»? Not to my knowledge in this i-ity. I l)elieve there have Immmi several convictions
in the city, but I only know that fmni heartuiy.
40412. You had no official connection with that f No.
•OII.'J. Are you apfiointe<l by the Pn)vincial <iovernment ? Yes.
4(»4I4. What force have you ? -Some 40 or ^U men : sometimes extra men are
employe*! throughtrnt the province.
4041"). I>o they work in concert with the police or individually! They work
iiidi\i<iually
404 Ifi. r>o they make r.'|M>rts to the provinc'al aiitliorities ! Yes.
N«J. MOOK, of Victoria, on Iteing duly sworn, «le|><»se«l as folUiws : —
Jiy Juilgf McDuitnlii :
40417. VVhat is your m-cupation ? I am at present manager of the Chin Chong
Company of general merchants.
4041s. How long you lived in Victoiia '. Altogether aisful l."> or 18 years.
404IU. Difl you come from China originally? Yes.
404_'0. ^Vha^ piovince ? Canton.
404:il. Are li(|Uors sold there? Yes.
404 J2. Is a license law in ojieration there? Xn, there are no licenses there.
4()4'j;l. Do the Chinese in Victoria take otit licenses to s«'ll ? Yes.
404t.'l. Are they men who .sell liquors? Yes, most of them sell Chinese wine, which
tliey import.
4042">. Are thei-e any Chinese .saliMins here selling li(|iior by the glass? No. They
only sell bv the gallon.
404--'(i. Are they wholesalers? Ye,s.
40427. Do they sell Chinese wine? Yes. Chinese wine is distilleil from rice.
4042f<. Are you well ac(|uainted with the Chinese people in this city? -Yes.
404'_'!t. Will you please state to the Commission whether they are a sober j>eoplo?
- I think they are.
404.'10. Take the |M>ople in China itself : arc lliey shImt' Yes; J. think they are,
a.s a whol«\
Bjf R-v. Ih\ MrLvinl:
404;U. Does your company .sell li<|uor ? Yes.
404.'t2. Do you sell much ? Not very nnicli.
404.1."!. Df» you sell in ijuantities of less than one g.illnn .' No.
404.34. Do you sell any except Chinese liijuor '. No.
404."l.^i. D«> any Chinese sell whisky? I do not think so,
404.t<i. Do many drink whisky ? Very few.
404;l7. Do some of them / Yes. some of them.
h%l Jiulyi' McDonald :
4043H. Is this Chim'sc liquor intoxicating ? — We have several kinds, one kind is n
little stronger than another.
404.'19. Is it more like whisky or wine ? -Oui- lifpior is a little strongei than
pure wine.
rFoiIN M. L.ANCil.KY.
536
1!
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
104 10. Is till' (^liiiiHHtt liquoi' wliif<ky or wine ! It is call<>rl i-Drtiii.
lOltl. WouliJ vou ouiiMider it iiioiv like win«', whisky rii-Kin ? It is more like wine.
10442. Is i( eolouitMJ or white? — We have it coh)ure<l uixi also whit«.
40443. Is rMi the sulwtnnce from which it is nuuie ? Yes, it is distilled from lire
>itid is of various dejjrees of stn'tigtii.
% Mr. />,: Mrl.^nil ,
40441. Does your com|Miny sell o|iium ? -We difl until lately.
40445. Have you a license to .sell opium? Yes.
40I4<». The sjime as you have a license to .sell Chinese li(|Uor? — Yes.
40447. An- there many C'hinese in Victoria who have licenses tos«'ll liquoi- ,' — Hall'
n dozen or therealjouts.
It I) Jiitiiji- MrDouahl :
4044H. Are they nil whole.siih' clcalei-s ; Yes.
4044!t. Is this li(|uor of which you have spoken sold in C^'liina? — Ye.s.
40450. Do they take out licenses to sell it there? Theiv are no licenses in Ciiina.
40451. Then a man starts and sells it without any authority ! Yes.
4045"J. Does the (Joverimient contnil the manufacture' of it ? No.
4045.'{. Tlieiv is no license fee cliarKi^l ? -No.
Bif Jtrr. I),. M,Le(Hl:
40454. Do you consider that the Chinese in this country drink iiiori' than tlu'y do
in China? -Yes, they use the liijuor daily, aUiut meal times.
40455. Do any Chinamen in China use whisky ! Very seldom. In-cause they can
ifct this Chine.se wine so much cheajier.
40I5»». Have you ever lived in San Francisco? -Yes.
40457. Are there any Cliine.se saliwins there.' I do not think so; if llierearc, tlicy
a i-e controlled \ty white men and there is a white proprietor.
;■ (
|{i:v. .M»HN CA.MIMiKU., of Victoria, on l»ein;{duly sworn, <le|Mised asfollitws :
B/f Jiidyf Mi-Unnnld ; '
4045K. With what church are you ccmnected f — I am a Minister of the Fii-st Presliy-
lerian Church.
4045!>. How long have you reside<l in iJritish Columliia? Five months.
404t)0. Where did you conic from \ Front the County of Sinicin-, the town of
V"!ollinjiw<HKl.
404<>l. Have you notictnl the workiii;( of the license law in Kritisli Columhia .'
Not very much, e.\«u'.pt what I havt; seen in the city.
404()'J. Do you timi any ditliculty in workin<; it ; are its provisions ohserved I .*so
t'ar as I am conceriu"<l I do not know much alKiul the workiic,' of the law.
404t».'<. I>id not Siinc(M' County pa.ss the Scott Act ? Yi-s.
404(54. Did you live there theii ? - Ye.s.
404(»5. Then the Act was reiK-ah-d and was followed l>y the license law .' Yes.
40466. Was the license law in force when you left there? It was.
404*57. An' you favourable to the licensing of the trade, or aiv you oppo.sc<l to it ,'
- 1 am opiM)s«»d to the tratlic altojiether.
40468. On principle ? -Yes.
404<»'.*. Do you think it wronjj to license the trattic / Yes, JM-cause I consider it an
injury to the eomnninity.
40470. Do yim think it is a .sin to license it? T certainly think it wronji to license
what is injurious to the cominunitv.
537
Liciuor Traffic — Hritish Colunibia.
40471. Do ytiii tliink it is wrong for a man to |inrtiikr of lit|Uor us ii Ijevernge ? 1
tliink it injurets liini, unci if it (Um's, it is wrong.
4047:.'. Are you favoural)l»' to piohiWition?— I am.
4047^5. On principle? \'es.
40174. I)o you tliink a general pii)liil)itory law is practicable in this country? I
think HO. It is iK'coniing more and more so (>vei'y day. I do not think it could he car-
I'ied out just now, hut the sentiment in that <lirection seems to lie growing, not only in
this province, hut in Ontario.
40475. You lia\e hardly lived long enough here to l)e ahle to speak |)Ositiveiy nf
Ih'itish C'olumbia { No.
40470. In Ontario the Scott Act was in foi-ce in SimccM' (,'ounty. How did you
tind it work ? It ilid not work very well : it was a disappointment to its friends.
40477. Mad you diHiculties to contend with / Ves. I lived in Wellington wln'n
the Act was in force there.
40478. At what place ? At Marriston.
40470. Is that a railway centre .' Yes.
40480. Did a certain amount of sale go on there ? --Some, i)Ut not anything to tlir
extent to which it was carried on in Simcoe ('ounty.
10481. At Colli ngwood you mean? Yes.
40482. In the event of the )Missing of a general prohibitory hiw, a law to prohibit
the numufacture, importation and sale of intoxicating li(|Uors for beverage purposes, <\i>
you think it would be right and just for brewers and distillei's to receive remuneration
for their plant and machinery rendered useless t I think not. I think the proper thini;
to do would be to give them sufficient length of time to allow them to get out of tlic
busine.ss and get rid of their stock.
4048;{. You are aware that di.stillers aie retpiired to keep their stock for a ceituin
length of time for )>ui'poses of rectification ! Yes.
/iy Jtf'i: Dr. M,l.<'od:
40484. You have ob.served the operation of the license law and of the Scott Ail.
Comparing the two systems, which would you prefer \ I would prefer the licen.se law.
I have been in two counties and have observed, \ery clo.sely, the working of the Scott
Act in both.
40485. ^Vhy do you prefer license to the Scott Act .' Hecau.se a great many plact'>
spring up where intoxicating drinks are sold, which do not iN-come established whci-c
houses are licensed. That has been my observation, particularly in the town of Collinu
W(Mld.
4048t). That is to say that li<|Uor is sold illicitly when the county has Ijeen uiuh r
the Scott Act, but not when drink is allowed to l)e sold under license ? No ; but it is
sold in a great uuvny low places, in back I'lmms, etc., under the Scott Act, and it is not
so sold when licenses are granted.
40487. You think license is preferable to illegal traffic ? I think so, especially t"
the Scott Act as it stands.
40488. What was the difiiculty with the Scott Act? The difficulty was this : thai
public sentiment wa.s not sufficiently strong to have it properly carried out.
40489. That was the cau.se of the repeal ? Certainly.
4041(0. Do you think a lietter state of things prevailed after the return to liceii'^i' '
I do, particularly in the County of Simcoe. This was not .so noticeable in Wellingtnn,
Ijecause the temperance sentiment there was more favourable towards the Scott Act and
its enforcement than it was in Simcoe.
40491. Do you Ijelieve that law is an educator? I do, to some extent.
40492. Do you believe that the drink habit is an evil thing? I cert^iinly do.
40493. Do you Ijelieve a law that delegalizes the liquor traffic educates peoi'lc
against the liquor traffic ? I think so. However, I do not believe the safety of tlif
community lies so much in the law jis in the churches, and in the education of the people.
40494. You refer chieHy, of course, to the moral and religious influences ? I iI'l
Rkv. John Camphkij..
■ 538
'H
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(U4'J'>. Doyuiitliiiik the liiw is a li)-l|) to it>li^'iuus ami inontl iiilluciii cs ? I ni-
tiiiiily «io.
4UI'.)t). I><) you think tliat while the church in trying toi'diicat) the |M>n|)|f I'liucorti-
iiii; the ('hai'tiet<>i- uf tlif drink trade itri<i to |)(tr!suad)> the |)(ii|il<> to rctVaiii tVom drink,
the lejjali/ation of the tratHc l>y the license syNieni liel|)s the rhiireli in the exerrise of
this intlueiice. Kor instance, the church seeks to educate the people to the lielief that
the drink trattic is an evil tiling. Is tlie church helped in that work liy the le;;ali/atioti
of the tratiic /- No, the cliurcli is not hel|M-(l by the lejialiwition of the traHic. The
church liHtks upon tiie tratiic as an evil, and lepili/.ation docs not liel|i in puttini:
down th(? e\ il ; hut rest rictin<; certain evils hy law is much lietter than rcnioxal of
restrictions.
K)t!)7. You prefer a license law to untraniinc^lled sale .' C'crtaiidy.
404!)^'. Do you think sale is free and untrainiiielled under the Scott Act.' No:
In-cause if the .Scott Act is violated the violators are supposed to he punished hy law ;
but if public sentiment is not sulliciently stron;; to enforce the law, it is \i-ry dillicidt
for the authorities to see that, the law is carried out.
4()49!l. Is the ditHculty in cartyin;; out the Scott Act or any other law due to the
authorities or to public opinion / [t nii^ht be dut; to both: but unless the authorities
are backed up by public opinion, it is almost impossible for the ollicers of the law tu
carry tlie law into effect witii any decree of satisfaction.
40500. When public opinion is in favour of the enforcement of the law, do the
otKcials do their duty ami enforce it ? No, tney do not.
40r)0|. Then it is fair to charjie tl»e non-enforcement to a weak pid)lic opinion, or
do you make the oflicials responsible for that non-eid'orcement '. I do not know that
you can make the otticials responsible ; T would rather place the responsibility on weak
)iublic opinion.
40.")02. l)o you think in all cases where the law is not eid'orced the evil lies in
public o))iDion ( — No, I do m)t : but I think the otlicials of the law jjenerally manaije to
carry it out in .some de<;ree, if puV)lic .sentiment is in favr>ur of it, because pidilic opinion
seems to be tliat l)y which the world is governed.
40r>0;{, Do you believe in general prohibition / Certainly.
40504. You think a prohibitory law, well enfyrceil, as well enfuned as any other
law, would be |>roduetive of f^ood, morally and tiiumcially .' I do.
40505. In your exjjerience as a clergyman and in the discharge your pastoral tluties,
have you observed whether, t<i any extent, the drink tratiic and the drink habit are
responsible for crime, immorality, domestic troul)le. neglect, of children and neglect of
religion ',' — Certainly.
Ii
Ian
deyree those troid)le
4050(>. In what degree, do you think .' Jna very
traceable directly or indirectly to the tratiic.
40507. Do you think that if the traffic were prohibited, those evil ellects would be
diminished? — Certainly ; but I am not so sure that jiroliibition could be carried out at
present.
4050H. But do you think that public sentiment is growing in that direitidi .' Yes.
and it hius changed during the last 10 years more than liefore, jiarticulariy in the eastern
provinces.
4050!l. Y'ou have not Im-cii here a sutlicient length of time to be able to judge of
public opiiuon on this (|uestion ? No. liut with respect to the drink lialiit in this city
I am able to .say that 1 have l)een here five months, and J ha\e seen le-s drunkenness
than I have seen in any town or city in which I have lived during any ti\e months of
my life.
40510. Do you attribute that to the license system '. 1 do not know to what it can
be attribute<l, but that is a fact.
/ii/ Jiidyn Mt'DoiinId :
4051 1. NVhat in your opinion is the effect of having a law on the statute b(M)k that
is persistently and flagrantly violate*!, such as the Scott Act ? It has a biul effect. U'cause
ul if it weakens the conscience of the
law violated always weakens the conscience
onscience
individual, it certaiidy weakens the c<
of tl
539
le conununity.
Liquor Tmffic — Itritish cyumbia.
40A1'2. Ill the cttuiitif^N of which you have Npokfii, Wolhiigt<in uikI MiiiinM>, you ai'4-
auiirc that t\\v HcotI Act was r«>|N*alMl in iHitii of tJieiii when the tiin«* arrivinl at which
tilt* vote coulil Im> tni<«'n ? Yi'h.
lOril.'l. ho y«>u iM'Ut'vt' that tlif iNHipU* wfir inthieiicfii to any t^xtt^nt in ropf'aUn);
the Act hy thf Ntatf of thiiix>; which you have nicntionHl f I certainly think tliey
looked u|M)n the Act un h ooniplcte failuri'. TIion** who voted in favour of it wlien it wit*
ciirrietl anil hecanie law in those counties ex|iecte(l nnich more from the Act than wan
reiili/eil, and when they hhw it wax a failure and could not Im> enforcetl, they weiv glad
to repeal it.
% ff'f. Dr. M>L>-od .
J0ril4. Do you Itelieve a law against an evil has any ettect in creating a strong
jiulilic ftH'ling against that e\il .' f think ho, on certain lines parti<ndarl} .
40.j|r>. For instance, if the drink traffic is an evil, and it is desirable to have public
opinion against it, (Um's a law against it creat«> public sentiment against it ! It (h>e8, <m
certain lines. Sup|x)sing they were iiifavourof a (certain line of action and the law prohi
bite<l that, they would refrain from it.
40510. What eti'ect on the young people has a law that promotes the ilrink
IratHc? I think it has a bad eti'ect.
40517. What effect has a law that delegalizes and punishes the tratfic and dealers
in it on the young |)eople ' I think it has a gisMl effect. That has lieen my own
opinion for the last 15 yeais.
//// Judge McDonald :
40518. You ar« favourable to prohibition? —Yes.
40511). You do i\ui consider that at the jtresent time it could lie practically carried
out ? — I do not.
40520. You believe that owing to the influence of ciiurches and teuijierance sm-ie-
tics there is a growing tenqierance feeling '. I do.
405'JI. You lM'lie\e that when that sentiment has gi-own sutKciently sti'ong to carry
the bulk of public opinion, then a prohi tory law may l)e jiractical)le ? — Yes, that is my
o|>ininn.
Hj;v. (/ >\' KIIMALT'] WATSON, of Vict<iria, on lieing duly sworn, (lepo.sed as
follows ; - .^
lifl Jmlye Mi'Dimnld :
4052'_'. With what Chuivli are you connected .' -1 am minister of Temple Methodist
Cliurch on Pandora Avenue.
405'J.'5. How long have you resided here '.- I have been over five ami a half years.
40524. I)id you come here from one of the other provinces? — T came from Toronto,
Ontario.
40525. Since you have lived in British Columbia, have you lived in any other place
than Victoria?- I have been here Hve years and a half, aiul in the province eight years
and a half. I lived in New Westminster.
4052<). Have you hail any opportunity of obser\ ing the working of the licen.se law
in British Columbia in those two places? — Yes.
40527. How have you found it work? — -Vs a license law, 1 presume it works as well
here as any place else.
40528. Are you favourable to the license system?- In answering that i|Uestion I
have to consider the right and wrong of it. Certainly 1 am against the li(juor trafti<'
and am in favour of prohibition. I would not consider it wrong to grant licenses if the
people wishe<l it and were in favour of it.
Rkv. John- Campbkll.
540
67 Victoria.
8e8Hional Papera (No. 21.)
A. 181)4
40-'i'J!t. H<i you wiiiilil pri-tVr |ii'uliiliititiii .'- Ci'rtiiiiily.
4(I''>:{U. Itiil you would nitlii'i- lia\<' lici-ii.si' tliiiti untrnniiiifllfil siilt* f V<-h.
40."».'M. Mnv«' you IukI iiiiy ox|M'rit'iicf iim pr.iliiWitnry fuuiiti V ' I liii\<i(ot diipctlv.
4()*i.'l'J. In ciiNt' ot' tli<> ••iiiictiiicnt of a ;,'i*it*Tiil proliilMtory law for tlii> lloiniiiiuh,
a law to piitliiliit tUv uiaiiufiicturc, iiii|iot'talioii and Mali* of intoxicating lii|uo>'sfoi- JMni-
ra^** pur|M)NCH, do you think it ri^lit that ItifwiTs and distillers should l)t< riMnuni-rat«>d
for their iiiitnt and machinery rendered useless / Not hy any means.
lO'i.'t.'t. Would you think it ri^ht to allow a limited time for those eh^'a;^'e I in tin-
ItusineHs to i.-ontinue, so us t4> allow them to disiNtse of their slock ' Yes, I would Ih- in
favour of that.
have Iteen in the jirovince, have von
"■ drink trade.' I ha\e noticed verv
Hi/ Jier. Or. Miboii:
4U.*t.{4. huriii^ the ei^ht or niiifi years yi
oliserv»Ml any ehan)f«( in pulilic feeling; towards
;;reHl chauijes intiemi.
4U5;l."). What ha.s U-en the chariu-ter of th' ciianjjes .' When I (irst came iiere, I I
years a><o, there waw scarcely ii temperani ir^an "ation, esiept the (JochI 'I'emplars.
They were very few in iiumhei-, anri they v not exercivin^ much intliience. except in a
<|uiet way. Now th«r»* are a jjreat many people !.. loiijjinj; to temperance societies, and
there are the (itKMJ Templars, Womer's C'hri.stiiiii '. niKMance I'liion, the Uoyal Temp
I rs .'ind the ISlue Kiblxin t>i ^aniaitions, whic! >o ,i gtnA sNork. I never .sawso>;reat an
excitement '.nd revulsion of feeiinjj as ha« occurred on the ijuestioii during the lust two
or three years in this province. In my opinion >!;.• people t>f this country are now
against the li(|Uor trattic.
40").{(i. An; the various brand es of the Christian Church active in pixmiotiiiK tern
|)erance? Most of them an*.
40r)l{7. Have you a Confer«'in-e of your chuich in this province .' Yes.
I0r):{,s. Has the Conference made a delixeraiice on this i|uostion ? — It does so e.ich
year.
405:{!». It is practically identical with the deliverance of ihe (ieneral Conference .' —
Yes.
40">4U. Personally you concur in the character of the deiiveivuice of the (Jeiier.il
Conference, I presume f Yes, certainly.
40")41. Hiul the deliverance of your Provincial Conference aj^retnl with tliat \ie\\ .'
Yes.
40542. Have you a copy of your Conference proceedings of last year containing that
deliverance ! — Yes. The deliverance which was adopted by the Conference is as follow^
(Appendix 9).'
40r)4.'<. In your contact with tin people as pastor, have you observe<l what effect tlic
drink habit ha.s on the community at large? -A \ery bad etiect indeed.
40544. In what resixjct / —In regard to morals and happiness in lioines. and it has
a tendency to lower the moral sense generally. Afy observation of young people has
been very extensive, e.specially in regard to young men, and I ha\f seen many of them
sacrificeii and ruined. Kvery facility is provided here as well as elsewhere for the ruin
of yiaing men. In very many cases they are away from home and |iarticularly
susceptible, and it is not too much to say that one of the siuldcst things a Christian
minister has to experience and observe is the large number of young men who arc
ruined through the drink traffic aiv' are led away into evils thai are nameless here.
1
*
541
I.'
.iqiKH- Traffic — Hritish Columbia.
AHTHl'U L. HKLYKA, rit" Victoria, bari-istei'-at-liiw, mi ln-ing (iuiy sworn,
(lejHiswl lis follows : —
Jiif Judyii McDonnld :
40")4r). How long hav«; you resided in ISriti-^h Columbia .' -A little over four years.
40") M>. Have you resided all that time in Viitoria/ Yes.
40r)47. Did you come liere from one of (lie other provinces? -Frttm New Bruns-
wick.
40.")4S. What part ?— From Kredericton.
/li/ Rev. Dr. JfcLeod :
40."»4i). I rememlier you were Inspector under the McCarthy Act for the County (»f
York. Tell us .something about the working of the Act I — At that time the Scott Act
was in force there. My duties were more particularly in connection with the general
management of matters regarding the enforcement of the Scott Act, which remained foi-
a time in aljeyaiice, lajcause it was determined liy the Supreme Court that the countv
wius under the McCarthy Act at the time it was in o|)eration. The dithcultie.s at that
time were, first, the unsettled state of the legal questions arising out of the Scott Act
itself. I'pon those <|uestions came the eonllict in conse([uence of the ]»iNsage of tin-
.McCarthy Act, and lietween the two, for three years the Scott Act hiui iiardly any
existence at all practically.
40550. You have lived in Victori.i all the time you have lj«>en on the Pacific
Coiist! — Yes, although I have Ix-en absent some part <>t tlie time.
40.">51. Have you observed how the license law has worked here ? I have not paid
wry nmcli attention to those (|uestions here, except what I have gleaned front conversa-
tions with people.
40552. Are you able to make comparison between the license system here and the
Scott Act in the east? — It was never my good fortune to s»'e the Scott Act enforced,
and therefore I am not prepared to make a comparison -that is, enforced according to
iny idea of enforcing the law.
4055;{. What were the difHculties in the way of enforcement ? — I think in Y'ork the
same ditKculties occurred as elsewhere. The public sentiment was very weak and the
pe«jple violated the law.
40554. You think that was a difficulty which arose out of the legislation ? The
difficulties that occurred out of weak legislation and the action of the Court no doubt
had a very discouraging effect on public opinion, ivnd the peojile came very rapidly to
the conclusion that the law could not be enforced, and it was not wi>rtli while to iMitlicr
with it.
40."55. How long were you Inspector ? — Two years.
4055(5. How long was the law in force before that /It was i-i force from August,
1871*, until June, 1884, when the McCarthy Act came into o[K»ration.
40557. There was only partial enforcement during that time? — -Yes.
40558. Do you know why there; was only partial enforcement at that time ,' Thai
arose out of the difficulties to which F havt; referred. In the first place the const itii
tionality of the Scott Act was imjiugned, and the Sup.eme Court ditt'ered from tin
other court as to that. The case went through all the courts up to the Privy Council : two
years had passed before the final decision was reached, and during that periiKl there
certainly was but partial enforcement of the Act.
4055!). Would you attribute that partial enforcement to the fact that those ijucs-
tions were befoie the Ctiurts and nothing uould be done ?-- Practically during this tiiiu'.
owing to the decision of the Supreme Court of New Mrunswick and until that decision
was reversed, there was no Scott Act, and sal(K)ns were opened and licenses gra>'teil.
That state of things prevaile<l, I do not know how long, but aliout two years.
40560. Was it not fully two years? —Perhaps it was two years.
40561. You have not observed whether the license law regulates the trade here m
not? I think the license law here is very much better enforced than I saw the Sioti
Act enforced.
AiniKiH L. IJklyka.
642
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A 1894
40r»6J. It is enforced in wimt resj)e(t ! — We imvf rej,'iilatii<iis wliidi aif niiuit- iiini
i;cnerally olw-ved ; iiiiy violiitioiis ai-i- punished. I was Police .Ma;;iNtratt' for cij^ht
months heiv.
40r»();{. Did you have many i-iises of violation of the license law hy licensees? Not
very many. The Sunday dosing law came into ojieration while I was Police Maifistrate.
I had two cases before me immediately after it came into force. 1 made cori\ ictions in
l)oth cases; they were punished, and from that time until this I think the law has heeii
pretty well observed.
40504. Vou had no cases after that ? —Not for violation of the Sunday law : there
were very few ; alto;;ether oidy four or five.
40565. You think all cases of violation were reported and the partie.s punished?--
The police law in this country as a rule is well enforced.
405G<i. J>o you re;,'ard the license system as a better way of dealing with the trade .'
-I liave no d<»ui)t whatever that in the state of pul)lic opinion it would l>e diHicult to
^•nforce any other .system.
405))7. Which part of the lieense system i|o you prefer, the license c.r the prohibi-
tion? I have not a veiy stron;.; opinion on that matter.
405(18. You cannot express an opinion on it .' — If I had my choice I would sa\
prohibition; 1 would mil take lonj; to decide that i|uestion. But from the impression
that I think prevails in this countiy it would be useless to enact a |>rohibitorv law.
10569. You consider that prohibition is impracticable? It is impracticable in this
•country at pri'.sent.
40570. \yhat means lia\e you had of ascertainin;; the public sentiment on the
([uestion f 1 know a i^ood many peojtle who to a certain extent rciiresent public opinion.
I have been pretty nearly all o\er tlie province except in the very rural districts, i ha\e
Iteen in all the larj;e and public centres, and my experience has Im'cii the .same as it has
lieen in a jjreat many otiier places, that the larj^e majority of the people were favourable
to pi'ohil)ition : at tliesame time they are not favourable enou;.di to say that if such a law
were enacted, they woidd put themselves out in the least to see that it was t>nforced.
40571. |)oyou agree that there has Ih'cii a marked change in public opinion during
the last few years? I have been here four years, and for myself 1 do not feel capable to
give an o))inion on tliat point.
40572. l)oyou think there has l)een any change.' T liii\c not been here long
leiiough to be able to remark any. in my |>articular circle I have not noticed any change.
4057.'5. You believe in the principle of prohibition? Yes, tlie same as 1 believe in
a great many other principles ; but I do not .see any particular use for it in tliis country
just now.
40574. Can you concei\e a condition of things that woulil justify the embodiment
of that principle in law / Yes ; and when the community reaches that point, then it
seems to me that tlu^ proliibitmy law is of itself useless.
40575. So in that case a prohibitory law would be useless .' Nu, 1 did not say that
at all. f mean in this way : the community might consist of jieople who were all
total abstainers, that is to say, a .Miinmunity where, so far as the jieople were concerned,
jii'ithibition would not be able to do ser\ ice. If such a condition prevailed over' the
whole country, that conclusion would of course be true ; but it would also undoiditediy
happen tliat there would be communities where the majoi-jty were total abstainers, and
where a minority, if tliere was not prohibition oi' restriction, w.iui(
li(|Uor liu.'<iness. In those connnunities the law wculd liiive tc'
enforced.
40576. l)o you mean that all the people or a large propoi w i;
allow this ( I mean a veiy large ]>roportion.
40577. Woulil you have rigid measures taken to protei i
certaiidy go into the
le looked after and
of the people Would
the niinoritv. The
nnionty.
n. lority have no rights in the goveriwnent, except rights that are connnon to all.
Jiy Judy Mi/Jonakf :
40578. I understaiul then, from what you say and from your knowledge of the
city and of the state of feeling in tiie country, that there would 1m' a majority of people
in liritish Columbia in favourof prohibition as an abstract proposition .' -No doubt of it.
648
it'
67
Iii<iUor Tmttic — J3ritish Columbia.
40'»7'.>. But sii till- ii.s pruliilntiuii Iteiiig practically ciirried out, you think that
majority would fade away I — I think so. It wouKI fade away lieforc it could l»e a
failure in enforcing the law. I do not think there is a provinct; in Canada in which it
would Ite more ditticult to enforce the law than here. We have an immense country
sparsely Hettle«l along the Tnitetl States l>order where smuggling and illicit distilliiitr
could Ite carried on to an almost unlimited extent.
40580. In case of the enactment of a genei-iil prohihitory law, a law to ptohihit the
manufacture, im|N)rtation and sale .if intoxicating liquoi-s for Iteverage puriMises, would
you deem it right that itrewers and distillei-s should l)e ren)unerat)Kl for loss of plani
and machinery i-endered useless .'- I think if Parliament pa.ssed a law of that kind t,ht'\
should renmnerate every man in the Itusiness for every dollar he had investeil in it. In
other words the (Soveriiment should buy up all the breweries and distilleries and li(]u<'i-
establishments, and the litpior should Ix' desti-ovi-d if of no value.
405HI. (lenerally sj»eaking, what is the effect upon a community of having a piu
hibitory law that is flagrantly an<l persistently violateil ? It has an e\il effect.
Ordt
if 1
enfur
1h- cI
drink
LEWIS HALL, of Victoria, mi In-ing duly sworn, dep<ised as follows :
liy Jiidi/i' Mi'Donntri :
40582. What is your business or iK;cupation .' I am a dentist.
4058.'{. Hfiw long have you resided in IJritish Columbia? — I came here first in
IS7(), and ivsided here for several years, partially on the line l)etween here and Nanaiini>
and partially in Victoria. Then I went to Philadelphia, and from there I went tn
Dakville, ()ntario.
40584. How long have you resided here f The last time since .lune W, 188(5.
40585. Then you have been in the city nearly five years .'- -Yes.
I058(>. The license law has lM>en in force here ever since vou hav»! known tiic cit\.
I
;up|>«>.se
■>. Ye
40587. Are you yourself favourable to the license system ? I am not.
40588. Are you oppose<l to it ? Ye.s.
40581). Are you favourable to prohibition .' — Yes.
40590. On principle.'- Ye.s.
40591. .\re yon op|«»sed to the licensing of the tfaffic ? Yes.
4059L'. Do you think it wrong to license it .'I do, and for the simple reason iliai
liquor is prison, and some restriction should l>e plactnl on its sale as well as on the suli-
of any other jMjison.
4059;{, Do you think it wrong for people to use it as a Iteverage? — I tlo.
40594. Have you lived in any place where prohibiti<tn was in force ? — I resided thirc
months in Oakville, Halton County, in 1889.
40595. You were not thei-e when the Scott Act was rejwaled in that county ? -No.
During the whttle time I was there, I saw only one drunken man, and li(|Uor was not tn
Ite obtainetl. I know parties who wanted t<i drink and trie<l t<t obt^iin li(|Uor, but coulii
not, and who came to nte. as tiu'V knew I could get alctthol for my office purjHtses,
4059f). Then, in your opinion, the Scott Act was a success in Oakville? Vis.
while 1 was there.
40597. Y<tu had not much opjKirtunity of seeing the working of the Act, as you wcif
only there tor threi' nxtnths. Do you know the reiuson why the Scott Act wa.s repealed '
— I tlo not know the reason why it was re|w>ale«l.
40598. In ciuse of the enactment of a general pnthibitory law, would you deem it
right that brewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of plant ami
machinery rendeiwl useless ? No : they went into the bvisiness with their eyes open.
Probably the Uoveninient would buy the li(|Uor and keep it for sale for nuMlicina! and
mechanical purp(t.ses.
Ahtihiu L. Hklvka.
544
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liy J{,i\ Or. Mrhnd :
40'>i>!t. Fidin your kiii>wlt'(l<;c uf Hiitisli (^ilumhia, litive you reason to liolir-vc ilicre
is ii stroiif^ sentiment in favour of ])roliii>ition .' -I rio. I am in a posit ic»n to know some-
tliiiij; alMail it from eorrespoiulenee, owini; to an otlice 1 occupy. I think tlie sentiment
is jfrowinit i'a|)i<ily.
lOCiOO. Wliat ollice do you occupy? -I am (iiand Secretaiy of tlie liidepcnilent
< (rtler of (iood Templars.
tOfiUI. Have you ol)served tile working; of till' lii'eiise law liere .' | liave to somo
extent.
jO<)Ol'. Wliat do you lliink of it ! I am m.t in favour of license at all : hut, even
if I were, I would not approve of the present iic-ense law. It is alnxist impossihie to
enforce the Sunday Act. At the present time, it is not necess.irv that the door shiiuld
1k' closed, for you have to catch a man in the act of drinkini; and know what he is
drinkinj,' hefore coiivicLion couhl he olitained.
•10()0.'{. I>urinii your resideiu-e in Victitria have yiai noticed any evil results from
the <lrink trade '! — I am sorry to say I have noticed a j^ikmI many, Itoth here and w Idle
T was re.sidint; in other jiarts of the province. I liave known several people who wiiit
to the had, and al.so instances that occurred directly due to drink.
40t)04. Instances of what kind f- Peojile heiny di'owned. I have assisted at jiost-
mortem examinations wliere people have been di'owned. Alcohol was detected in thi^
hrain at the time, and that was the verdict the jury hrouyht in.
■lOGOr). Is that a sample of many ca.ses ? It is. 1 have knowti men v\ ho woiked in
the nummer in the wojxls for !?r)0 or .^fiO a month, and after they were in \'ictoria for a
short time they had not a cent. I also know the case of a man who worked in the woods
and who started out to see his folks in the east, and when he reached ('alif<irnia he irot
on a spree, lost all his money and had t(» return.
■UM')U('). Do you think a community does a helter business when saloons aic'pi-o-
hihitedf 'F know it does. T know that husiness pi'ospcrs a jjoihI deal more when a
prohiliitory law is in force than under the license .system.
10007. If those men had not spent their money in saloons and on drink, woidd the
country have become bankrupt ,' 1 should say not ; it would have been benefited in a
;;reat many other ways. There would not be so many jieojile li^litini;, and so many
police would not be re(|uire(l to hwik after the people. The jails would not lie needed,
and there would not bo a l;iri,'e expenditure riMpiired to keep them up. The people
iienerally would not be rei|uired to pay in order to kei-]) the>n up.
40()0S. You believe, from your exjierience, that crime, tlisordersand all unlawfulness
are directly or indirectly due to the liipior tratHc? Yes.
40609. I do not think the re|M)rt of your Chief of Police shows that clearly? I was
speakinj; to a leadinj; physician the other day, and he .said that the lar;,'e percentaj.'e of
deaths was due directly to drink. He is not a mend)er of any temjM^rance <trj,'ain/ati()n.
40G10. Do you think drinkinj; is more prevalent in Hritish C'ohnnbia than in the
eastern provinces?- I think it was so in the early days, when money seemed to lie more
plentiful. There were not so many families hero then as now, and tlu^ people spent
their money more recklessly.
40()11. They went to the saloons because they had nowjiere else to ;:o, and they
spent tlieir money in drinking? — Yes.
Hi) JiuJgn McDoHnlil:
40()1"_'. Do you think if a prohibitory law were enacted, it could be carrietl into
operation in this province? — I do not see wiiy it could not, if we had proper otlicers.
40613. Can you inform the Commissio'grs of any country in the world in wiiieii
this desirable state of things exists? I can not.
40614. Does it exist in Kansas? — Not strictly, so far as I can learn.
40615. Do you Ijelieve a prohil)itory law could 1m' enforced in ISritish Colundiia? —
I do not see wliy it could not be enforced ht>re as well as anywhere else.
40616. Where is it in force? — It is not in force anywhere.
40617. But you think it could be enforced here as well as elsewhere? — If tiiere was
a proper government.
345
21 - J**
Liquor Traffic — Uritisli Columbia.
4061s. Why is it not enforced elsewhere when it is on the statute-book ? — It is not
strictly prohibition that is on tlie statute-book.
40619. Do you know of a)iy (sountry in the world where such prohibition as you
wish i.s in operation? — No.
40620. Ho it would l)e an experiment if it were intixnluced here? — I do not know
that you could call it an experiment.
40621. Would tiiere not be j^reat expense connected with that system? — There
would not need to l)e any exi)ense.
40622. But it would be a new tliinj;? — Yes. Tlie only country where it exists is
Turkey.
40623. That is tlie only illustration you can put forward. We have been told that
in the Fiji Islands there is such a law. —I am not sure.
40624. The Rev. Dr. Stewart of Sackville, N. K, Profe.ssor of Theology in the
University there, informed the Commission that such a law was in force in the Fiji
Islands ? — Yes.
40625. You think such a law could be enforced, yet you have sUited that the
Sunday lijvw was not enforced iiei-e ? — Yes.
40626. Why not? — For the rea.son 1 have stated : the law .seems to be vague.
40627. How is ti»e law vague? — All it says is that they shall not sell orer a bar;
they can sell liquor at meals to people l)oardiiig in the hotels, and they are not called
upon to close the door and put the lights out.
40628. 1 understood you to say that tlie prosecutor had to prove what kind of
liquor was sold and drank before convictions could be secured ?— Yes. You liad to prove
that alcoholic lic|Uor was sold.
40625). Would you prohibit the sale of ginger beei- on week days? — Ginger beer is
not an alcoholic beverage.
40630. I understood you to say that difficulty arose in regard to distinguishing the
kin(Js of licjuor sold, whether it was alcohc'ic liquor or ginger beer. If that difficulty
l)revails in regard to drink on Sunday, would it not prevail in regard to week days under
a prohibitory law ? — No, because liquor is detectible by the smell ; it could be dis-
tinguisiied, and if liquor was prohibited bylaw, and there was a smell of liquor a rounfl,
they would be liable to be caught, and prosecuted under the law.
40631. Does not that condition exist at present under the Sunday law ? — No.
40632. The method of detection would be l)y the smell and other liquors could not
be used as gingei' l)eer? — Yes.
40633. Under tlie prohibitory law you desire; there should be the right of search of
houses and pers<ms, I supjwse ? — Yes, because they wouki get liquor from the other side
of the line. A j)rohiliitory law, in order to be successful, would require that to be done.
A man if he travels now has his baggage searched by the Customs officers, and in order
to have a jirohibitory law successful the right to search pei.sons would also need to be
used.
40634. You would be in favour of having that done /—Yes.
■iOG'ib. And a proper officer or officers to do it? — Yes.
Lewis Hall.
546
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Rkv. J. E. COOMBES, of Victoria, on being duly sworn, deposed us follows ;
Jiy Jiidye JfrDonuh/ :
406;5(i. With what Church are you connected ^ — I am pastor of the Baptist Church
in this city.
406.'{7. How long have you resided in British Colund)ia ! -About two weeks.
406.'}8. Where did you come from? — From Washington State.
40639. From what part ? — FromTacoma.
40640. Is a license iaw in force there ? — Yes.
Jii/ Jiev. Dr. McLeod :
40641. Yon have not lieen here long enough to form an opinion as to the working
of the licen.se law in this city. I supjmse ? — No.
40642. Have y'»u ever lived in a prohibitory town or city ! — I have lived where
there was local option.
40643. Where was that ?— One of the places was irppcr Alton, in Illinois, where I
was at coUeg'', and another was Auburn, in the same State.
40644. How did local option work there J The trouble with local option is that it
is to<j local and too optional. We have to fight the same old devil over and over again
every year, and, of course, that makes it very <littii'ult. That is the optional feature.
The local feature is this : in a State like Illinois, where there are towns almost every
five or six miles, (me town in the county may "jug" the whole county. The people go
t(j that town and obtain all the li(pmr they want. Another objection I ha\e to local
option is that while it "bunches"' the revenue it does not "bunch " the expense. ( die
town may get all the revenue and at the same time the people over all the county have
to foot the bills.
40645. Then you think it is unfair? -Yes.
40646. How dfjes the licen.se law work in Washington State ? — It works badly, from
my observation.
40(i47. How is that? -It is decidedly on the side of tlie ii(|uur men. Itpr<»tects
the li(|Uor men in a busines.s, which, if carried on by " the butcher, the buker or the
candlestick maker," would give him a coat of tar and feathers and caust; him to l)e
ridden out of the town.
10648. Explain that.— It allows men t<i open these places where they are not able
to take care of themselves and refrain. It follows them with that soit of inlhience wliich
sends them home to abuse their 'jhiidren and beat their wives and terrorize the neigliiiour-
hood. While we have laws in the United Slates against the sale of rotten meat, 1 nevcn-
knew a man to eat rotten meat and then go home and beat his wife ; but we grant
privileges to .sell li(pior, which causes a man to do acts that would nevei' ha\e been done
1)V a man after eating stale meat or \-egelables.
40<)40. If a man ate rotten meat and then went home, would he not most likclv be
sick ? — This trade gives a monopoly to a cert.'iin cla.ss of people to debauch the com-
nmnity in which they live.
406i)0. Is there not a hirge class of people who, wliile purchasing at licensed phues,
never go home and create disturl)anct!?---Well, I supposi? it (lill'ei-s with the conimniiitv.
406.")1. What is your belief as to the proportion of drinkers who are f\ccssi\e
drinkers? — My observr.tion, which extends from a little place like T;icoma to a city like
tiie capital of Illinois, is that the majority of the people who freipient the saloons, in fact
the large majority become sooner or latei- in life what are called lial)itual drinkers. My
observation is that it is simply a<piestion of time.
406") "J. Does your Church have a conference or a.ssociation or union in this province?
-We are bound in conventional and associational ties with Washington State.
40653. Have you many churches in this province?— We have two in this city, two
in Vancouver, one in Nanaimo and one in New Westminster, six in all.
40654. These are connected with the association or union in Washington State ? —
Yes.
i
21— 35^*
64T
Liquor Tmttic — IJritisli Columbia.
)ul(l t'uriiisli a ropy i»f tlic inet'liujjs ami
! I (In.
lOti**."). Has tliac iiiiioii iiiadc anv (Iclivfi-aiii't- on tlic <|U<'sti(m nt' tfiiipfraiiff ami
prohihition .' It lias.
I0(1.")(;. Is tliat tlic (Iclivfraiicc (if tin- Haplisj |i('<'|ilf in tliis |ir(ivim't' .' Yes. I may
.say tliat tlir iiici'tiiiL; was licid at VancKUver, in liiis |ii'()\ incc, and tlit- majority of lln"
d»'lcj^at,es wore tVoni tliis province.
40()i'»7. I>i» you rt't'cf to the last mectini; of tin- association .' \'es.
40()")8. Did the association, at that ineclin;;. express itself on this <|uestion .'^-Yes,
ino.sfe empliatieally
•IO<t">'.t. Have you a copy of the report .' I c
llic minutes to the Commission.
4U()()0. l>o you helifne in a i>roliiititory law
40661. Do you think it ri;iht in juiiuiple .' I do.
406n-_'. What do you think aUiut its practiculiility .' I have not any (piestion about,
that, for the testimonv of the most distiiiijuished men in the I'nited States is to that
effect.
4066."{. What is the effect of tlieii' testimony .' The effect is this : When wcjjo to
^liiine, the CioverFXor, the I'nited States senators .-md the con;iressmen, j^eiierally auree
in the fact that the Maine law, the law for the prohiliition of the liipior tratlic, is as wi'll
enforced, and some say better enforced, than any other criminal law on the statute
book. That is enou;;h for me.
40<)t')l. You have not lived where there is local option.' I ha^c not. T have
vi.sited Kansiu* several times : once when it wjus under license, and twice when it wa-.
under jirohibition.
40ti(i."». What impression di<l the tAvo systems make on your mind ! If I may lie
j)erniitted to make a personal reference, I want to say that my family are addicted to
tin? u.se of li(|uor, and the tirst time I visited tlu'i'i? I found th(! same state of thin<;s in
the family that live in Illinois. When I went there I found, froii the testinutny of my
own father and l.i'others, that it was practically impossible (for that was the way they
put it) to t;et li(pior, and a man had to U- a sneak if he ^^ot a drink of whisky in the
city of I'jiiporia.
40666. Then you think jirohibition wa.s fairly successful in Kansas','- I think tlie\
counted it so after beiny much op})osed to it; they thouji^ht it as well or Iwtter enfoiced
than any other law in the city.
40667. I presume there were some violations? Oh yes, they said men could crawl
along ill a tunnel and drop .i (piarter in the slot, and drink whisky from a tin cup.
4066H. Did you hear anythinjj; of movable saloons in Kansas f I do not think I
did. I heard about "legners." They were men that went round with bottles in their
boot legs.
40669. Do you not regard those violations of the law as very demoralizing and
tending to bring the law into contempt? — That de]>ends on whether the fellow get--
caught or not. It is demorali/.ing to the fellow who violates the law and to the people
who are apprehended.
40670. What is the effect on the community of tlio.se violations liy " leggers " and
othei' jiarties? — It seemed t^) be the inipi'e.ssion of people with whom T conversed in
Emporia that while the law was violated, it was violated in such a way that it jiracti
cally deprived the men who violated it of any standing in the conununity.
40671. What is your opinion oi the law : is it an educator? — I have always regard
ed it as an educator.
40()72. Do you think a law against a thing admittedly wrong educates the jieople
against that wrong thing ? — T think so.
40673. Even when the law is violated ? — I think so.
40674. In the event of a general prohibitory law being jtassed, do y;)U think it
would be proper to coiupen.sate the brewers and distillers for the loss they sustained '
— I should like to say concern'"^ this matter that I am biased in my opinion by the
decision of the Supreme C<iurt of the United States.
40675. What was the decision ? — They have declared against compensation. .My
own personal opinion has always been against it ; but I should like to repeat that the
Supreme Court of the United States has declared compiensation illegal.
Rkv. J. E. COOMBES.
648
P':
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ik tlii'v
l(»(i7<'i. Wliat (it) vou think lit' tilt' justiff <if tlic claiiii tVif i'<iiii|i*'iisati<)ii .' I think
it WdiilJ Ix- a <i<HKl thin;; it' tlie whuh' niattcc <'(>nl(l In- .s(|uar<Ml u]) ; ami \\ lien ihf men
in tilt' trallir shall have (■t(ni|irnsatt><l the worlil for the >utl'('riiiji cniailfrl liy their husiness,
the woild will then he entirely willing; to tuin round anil pay what little halame is in
theif favour.
KJfl77. You think tliei'c are two sides to the ijuestion ' I think --o.
liji .liiiliji' }[(' Ihniiihl :
lOtlTf*. You are a eiti/.en of the I'nited States ( Yes.
IOfi79. You hii\t' resided in Canada for a period of two weeks ]- Y'es.
lUtiSO. You think you woidd like to see a law in force here such as i> in force in
Maine : is that the kind of law you want .'-That, of course, would coNcr a ixreat nianv
special features which are local.
tOtiHl. Are there no other features ?- I should like toha\f a law restin;,' on the
liroad liasis of the prohibition of the litpior tratlic.
40lt8l.'. What is there in the. Maine law that is not .satisfactory to you .' I do not
think I could enter into details. I do not know that I could say that I am in favoiii'of
the Maine law, hecause there may lie .some local features.
J()i)f<.'$. You rest«'d your statement in favnur of prohiliition cm the fact that the
Maine law was a complete success? — \'es.
lt)6S|. Do you know tliJit in Maine a man may have all the liipioi' he wants in his
house and that he may .ifive it to his friendt" '. Yes, of course there are details.
KKiS."), That is something; more than detail. Are you aware that under the .Maine
law a man may hrin;; in li(|Uor, hut he nuist not "luy it in the State, that he may keep
his cellar well stocked and ^tive li(|Uor to his fi'ieiids '. I do not know : I think that is a
local feature of the law.
lOtiHtj. Canyon tell me of any country in the world that has such a pi'ohiliitory law ?
-I think so.
40tlS7. Please state the country .'- I think the main featuies of the law arc em-
bodied in the Kansas, Iowa, or in the Maine laws, and those would fairly represent the
presi'nt demand of the people for prohibition.
40tiSS. Y'ou will take the Kan.sas oi' the Iowa or the Maine law as rcpifseniini,'
th(^ present ih-mand of those in favour of prohibition .'I think so.
J(.)r)f<!t. Sup|Mjsin;i a witness comes foi'ward and swears that in ICmpoiia there are
fully eijuipped saloons for the sale of liipior, would that witness be t('lini; the tnitii or
not ? I could not say, because* 1 was not there.
W(')!M). What you have state<i is on information received. I suppose.' Yes, liicri'
was none while I was there.
|(3()ltl. When were you thei' .' I was there in the fall of ISSS.
KMlOl'. Y'ou say that at that time there was no such tliini; as a sajonn in l'",mpiiiia
where licpiors were .sold at a bar.' I saw none and I heard of none.
IO(>',t."t. Yoti did not your.self see this tin pan business to which yuu iia\c referred ]
- No, but I heard it from teslimonv that was lioini,' on aliout the law.
n
549
11
Liquor Traffic — IJritisli Coluinbia.
I ?
C. I)ELLSMITH,ot' Vifioria, jounmlist.oii lifinv'tluly swi mm, tlt'|Hisndiv8 follows : —
//(/ Jiniijfi Mi'lhnuihl :
4061)1. How loMjj; liiivf you resided in X'icloii.i .' A t(m|iU' of years.
406!tr). With wimt juiixt are you conni't'tfd '. I am sit jn'f.seiit comit'i-tcd with tiw
Cl'Iftlllxf.
40<>!((). Have yoti resided any where else in llie country .' Yes, in Toronto and in
Kan>l<K>|)s.
40G1)7. Was tiiei-e a lieense law in foi'ee in Kaniloojis? Yes.
40698. Was it well observed there .' Yes.
4069!). Do you know whether Kaniloops was used as a distributing point forli(|Uor
sent to the Nortli-we.st Territories,' Yes, I think it «as. ! have often heard .so.
40700. Hav<^ you knowledj^e of it personally .' No; but I have often heard it
stated.
40701. Taking this country as you iiavi- seen it, do you tind the people to Iw sober
and law-abidin;; p.oople '. \ do eertainiy.
407O'J. How do they eoniparo with othei- eoniniunities in wiiieh you have lived ?
They eoinpare most favourid)ly. What struck me when I last came to liritisli C'olund>in
was the absenc«! of restriction and the repuifnance tif the people to anything; in the
shape of prohibition. A\'hen I first came to Kaniloops th(> Sunday closing law was in
operation, and Ix'fore that time saloons lia<l been op<-ii day and ni;;ht. < in Sunday 1
saw a man taking drink that 1 luid not seen drinkini; for weeks. I also .saw that it
made sneaks of men : at the .same time the people were determined to have the di'ink.
I have seen men, whom you would never think would do it, hang about saloons anil
bribe people to go in and get them a drink. I thought this was demoralizing.
4070.1. You do not favour Sunday closing/ I do not. 1 have known it to lie
attenipted in Toronto and afterwards |)rove a failio'e.
40704. \'ou ix'lieve in saloons selling during '1\ hours in the day and every day in
the week ? A saliwin keeper in this city i'an keep his place open day and night,
except on Sunilay. There are only four saloons who keep ojien all night there.
4070"). f .supj)o.se these four saloons fulfil all the night reipiireiuent as there are luit
a great many people around.' Yes. and the restaurants in connection with them.
Newspaper men call in and have sup])er and take a glass of beer.
40706. Do you favour the license law, or would you rather have untrammelled
sale? — 1 favour the license law.
40707. ^^'hy ? Because you get a better class of peoj)le in the tra<ie. and otherwise
c<mipetition would be too keen. If there were too many in the trade the liquor would
lie adulterated, and the licensees would sell impure liquor and inferior liquor.
40708. Then you think that under the lic-nse law there is a better <'lass of licensees
and a better class of liquor '/-Yes. Hut there is one mistake I see in the license law
here as well iis elsewhere and it is this : there is a man who often gets drunk, and the
authorities U)ok on him almo.st, as a criminal. I think it is the man who plies him witii
liquor until he makes a beast of him.^elf, who is the criminal. A man can take a certain
quantity without doing himself any harm, and if the licensee is a resjiectable man or if
there is a respectable man behind the bar, he will not give him more.
40709. Does not the law now prohibit sale to drunkartls? It is not observed.
40710. Is there violation of the law? T think so. I think it is the duty of the
law makers to see that the law is enforced.
40711. You think they fail in that particular?- T do.
40712. From your knowledge of men in liritish Cohnnbia and public sentiment
here, do you think a general jirohibitory law for the whole country could be enforced? -
I think it would be utterly iinp«jssible.
40713. In what would the difficulty consist? This country is jwculiar. Take this
Island : you could not prevent smuggling excejit you luul revenue cutters round the
whole coivst. The people now smuggle opium to the extent of hundreds of pounds
0. Deli. Smith.
550
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
weekly. This is very well known, Itut iIk' iiiitlioiitics cannot ciiicli tin- |llu■ti»^s,
althou;;ii on liotli sides tli<-y arc liHikin;; for thi-ni.
t07l4. In fast' of tlic enactment of a ;;eneral proliiliitory law do you lliink ••imi-
ponsation should Ih^ <jranted to hrewers and distillers for loss of plant '. I do not.
■U)7I">. *)r for their li(|Uor in store for reel iticat ion jiurfxises .' C'ertairdv not.
407I(). Would you have a limit tixed durin;; which they should he allowed to s«>|I
thelii|U(ir/ C'ertaitdy not ; if the trade is declared illegal, it shoidd he d imposed of at
once.
yy.// h'rr. Dr. McLpoil:
40717. Speakinj^ in re>j[ard to ojiiuin sniu^';;ling, would it he well to jirense the
opium triule, as parties will sinu<;i;le it .'—-There is already a license attached to ji and a
great revenue is derived from opium.
4071H. Hut there is sniu;:j.'liii;; fjoin^ on .' Yes.
40719. For profit of course,' A'es. T reiK-at that I do not helieve in Sunday
closin<; : it is a fane wherever it is tried.
407*20. S|)eakinf; of the people of Kand<Ni|is who ohjected to all rest rici ions and
especially to the Sunday closing, do you think the law makes them more solier or more
inclined to the lirjuor hahit / If the j)laces had heen <jpen so that men could jret adiink
and then yo away, it would have heen l)etter. The result of the prohiliition was that
men boardin<{ in hotels would ask friends up in theii- rooms, and there was more drink-
ing on Sunday than if there had heen an open system.
40721. Would you have a law that interferes with a man's personal rij^hls, or would
you allow him to gratify his desires .' So long as the personal rights and desires are
not offensive to the couununity or injurious, then I say hy all means allow him to gratify
his wishes.
40722. Did you notice that in Toronto then' was Sunday selling going on .' I have
seen more drinking in Toronto on Sunday than I have seen in N'ictoria on a week day.
4072.1, Then Sunday prohihition <lid not jirohihit in Toronto 'Certainly not.
40724. Do you think Sunday prohihition prohihits in Victoria f - I do not.
liy Judge Mr/hmahl :
40725. Is Kamloops an orderly place / -V^ery orderly. There is only one policeiuan,
who is also collector of ta.xes, and he controls the whole ]Hi|iulation.
4072G. Then thei'e is not much di'unkenness there -There is only about one case
in three weeks or a month.
lit
'; I
m
Liquor Traffic— Uiitish C'oiunihia.
NANATMn. Nov.-imImt -Jlst, Is'.fj.
The Hoyal Coimiiission on tin- Lii|uor Trartic met licre this day.
•liiMiK .Mcht.sALn. |{k\. I>I(. .Mcl.Kon.
.rii)(;K McDnN Al.l). iin»peninj,'fho])rtHt'e(liiiys. said : lliir ^Lfijcsty's C'nminissioii
under tlieOreat Seal i»t' (..'aiiiidii wa.s rt-fid iit Winiiipfj;, at thf njioiiiiii; <>t' llii' sittini;
tht'iv, and the n-adiiifj will, thiMoforc, he dispensed witli uii iliis (iicasinn. \\t' will at
once juueeed to exannne witnesses.
SAMUEL l)|{i\l\E, of Nanainio, ShefiH' of tlic Itailiwiik of Nanainio, on liein;,'
duly sworn, deposed as follows :
/ti/ Judge McDotuild :
■10727. How long have you been Sheriff ,' Ht'tween seven and eif{ht years.
407-8. Are you apjM>inted hy the Provincial (lovernnient f \'es.
407'2'J. How lonj; have you resided in the Province of j'.ritish C'olunihia? A little
over tifty years.
107.'^0. Did you come here from one of the other pro\ inces / I canre from California
here, hut I am an Kn<rlishman horn. I was in the Kraser River mines, after condnj,'
from California in the sprinjj; of IJ^U'J.
10731. How lonj; have you lived on ^'ancouver isliuid ? For 10 oi' 20 years.
407.1-'. Tlien you have had a jrood deal of experit-nce on the maiidantlas well as on
the Island? — Yea, 1 know h )th pretty well.
407.'i.'{. When you lame heic first, what law was in force in regard to the liquor
trade ; was it a license ? -There has always been a license law in force hei'e.
407.'54. Taking your own city, is this a law-abiding anti .sobei- community ? — Theie
are a great number of mixed people here, and considering that, 1 think it is one of the
best J have ever known. \V(! hiive men Ikm'c from different pai'ts of Kui'opeand various
parts of the United Stat(;s, and they are a yood class.
4073."). This is the centre of a laige ndning district, I believe ? Yes.
4073G. Theiefore you have what is called a mining ])opulation ? — Yes.
40737. Have you also a [iroportion of seafaring population ? Yes. A great many
come hei'e and get off the ships »,nil roam around as they ])lease.
40738. Taking all these facts into consitleration, you think this place will compare
favourably with other places in which you have been 1 — ^With any other place of winch
I ha\e knowledge.
40731). Have you reason to believe that the present license law works satisfactorily :
are there any amendments you could suggest ? — 1 know that my opinions on these
matters are not entirely popular, and I believe that not many peoj)le will fall in with
my views.
40740. But you speak in the public interest, 1 suppose. We are here by the
authority oi the Parliament of Canada, and by appointment of the Dominion (jiovern-
ment, to obtain information on all these (juestions; and we must a.sk you to give us such
information that is within your power to give. Does the law, as a license law, work
satisfactorily? — I think so.
Samuel Dhake.
562
T.l
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
407H. Dfiyini kiM»w of imy luiiciKlinontM that art- tlt'siial»l« ? I <lu m it know nt'
any that I could rt-coiiniH-nil. I may stiitc tliat tlit> law is soint'tliiii^' that I am not
vciy well a<'(iu)iiiit(>(l with, •ludgin^; the (lut'stion of |ii-oiiiliit ion, the o|iinioii I <-nt*>i
tuiii alN>ut it is from tliit results I liaM* sct-n from the mhIi- of lii|iior.
K)7t"_'. Ai'f you y<»iirs('lf favoiii'alilt' to prohiltition ^ I cannot say I am. That is
tlif reason I am not always in liarmony with my surroun<li!i;;s.
407l.'{. You think then' i.s a jirohihition scntiiiu'Mt in tiMMommuiiity .' I iH-iicxcso.
40711. And you yourself arc not in harmony with it ! Yes; that is ihr reason I
inciitioned the matter.
4074"). Are you opposed to juohihitiou on principle I 'I'he oidy way I can explain
It is this : I (hi n<it .see why any class of |ieople havinj^' liipior in the ctimmunity slinuld
need any further protection than men in the liutt'her simps. In this place liipior has
been sold ever since i came here. If a man wants to sell liipior he has to^'ct the sij,'na
tures of his neighliours and of the Ma<,'istrate, and there are always nieri more or less
o]ipii.sed to a man •^'etting a license, and the c<insei|uence is that there isfi'iction, to a
certain extent, before a new license is ^{ranted.
40740. Is the sentiment of the peojile in this connnunity opposed to the trallic
altogether! -1 think not. They are not in the majority. Hwinj; to th(! way the pies-
tion was asked, 1 was led to express my own opinion and feelin;;s.
40747. From your experience <if British Columbia on both tin- mainland anil on
the island, do you believe a j^eneral prohibitory law, if passed, could lie enforced satis-
factorily '. Tt would lake an army of <'onstables to enforce it. There would bt^ a yreat
deal of smuj{>{liiij,', as ihere are such <,'ood facilities foi' it. This is so much the case that
it would be impossiblt^ to carry out the law.
4074iH. Have you many bays and iidets .' The coast is full of small liays and har-
bours especially on the Island.
40749. Then you think smugi^linj,' would {)revail extensively ? Yes.
407")0. I)o you know whether illicit stills art; c.irricd on throu^diout the province ;
1 do not. That is one of the tliin<;s we hear very little about in this pi'ovince.
K)7")l. Takinj; this city, are there many jilaces licensed to sell liipior? 'I'here are
several places.
407")-. Have you ever been in Cassiar .' Yt^s. 1 was there two seasons.
407>").1. Have you \>een in Alaska '. — Yes ; you j,'o up throii;;h jiait of Alaska to get
to Ca.ssiar. The road passes through part of the Alaskan coast and you uo back
to British territory in order to reach that district.
40754. Do you know any of the towns in Alaska or have you \isited any of them .'
— I have been at Sitka and Fort Wrangell.
407")5. We have been told that there is a prohibitory law in force then'. Can you
sav whether that law is carried out .' When 1 was in the country it was under what
was called martial law, and the, • was a strong feelingof tcuior of martial law among the
people there. Everything was (|uiet and orderly, and you simply traxelled ajon^r with-
out In-ing nuilested by aiiylMxly.
407")(). Then y<iu did not investigate the state of things exi,stiiig '.- No. We simply
attended t^i our own business and obtiUned what we wanted, and went back as -.oun ;is
possible.
407")7. Then you are not in a position to speak in rt-gaiil to Alaska .' No.
40708. In regai'd to the license law in this province, we understand that rrcr-ntly
there has been an amendment i)assed by the Legislature by which licensed houses are
compelled to close on Sunday '/ — \''es.
40709. How is that law observed ? — It has been a source of g<M>d to this little town,
in this way, that when .saloons were op<'n on Sunday .sailors frnm the ships came ashore
' ■' ' ' trouble arose, for the sailors libertv being restricted .so much on
dtl
le mil
i-anie
streets when people weie going
School, but since the Closin
ship-lxiard he will indulge more than other men on shore. There were men tlrunk in the
r to church and when the children were going to Sunday
Act has been introduced we have been benefited in this
way and Sunday is kept more orderly.
40760. You have .said that there is not a majority of people in favour of jiroliibi-
tion, but that there is a majority in favour of Sunday closing ? — I think so.
''- 1
'^
rt*
553
Liquor Tnittlc— Uritish Columbia.
•O'til. You think tlmt ih lepicsi'iitiitivo of tli« jifoplc'.s HtMitiintMit / Yt's, ilmt thu
siiliHuis sliiiiilil Im- cloNcd III) Sumlay. And tlu-y will Ht-c tliiit ir is olmnl.
4071)1.'. Tlicii tilt' pcopli' support, that view ! Yes.
K)7<1:J. Do you know wliiit pulilic opinion is in i'f>{iiiil lo tlic nuinlx'!' of liccrisj'.s
isMuoil in tlif city .' I do not.
4t)7(>1. Fn SOUK' places wt' t"ouii<l tilt! p«'opl»> lulvocttting a iwluction in tlic nuniltct
of licenses issueil to a veiy small nuinlMT ; others were not in favour of that I We are
Xettiiin hack to tlu" same point or pretty near to it where we were just now. Speaking
for myself, I do not fall in line with that view.
K)7G">. Are thei-o places lit'ensed in Nanaimo where lii|Uor is sold hut Weds are not
provideij for tra\»)lleis or meals supplied I I do not know any hotel ot that kind in the
town. I su|>pose you can ^el a ImhI almost anywhere, liut I have never known fif such
places as you mean.
4U7(j(). Are they almost all liotels ? I suppose there is a class of hotels in the
lower part of the town which will U^t bedrooms and accomnuMlation for traxellers. As
re^jards the retail ti-ade, certain conditions have to lie complied with hefoi'e licenses are
;{raiited.
4<)7t>7. Iti case of the enactment: of a <,'eneral ))i()hil)itoi'y law, a law to prohibit the
manufacture, importation and sale of into.\icatin<; l)e\eraj,'cs, would you deem it ri;(ht
that brewers and distillers should be compensated for their loss of machinery and plant '
I shouhl certainly say .so, because they have now certain vested rights. They have
invested their money in tlni.se establishments and year after year have been granted
licenses.
40708. It has iK'cn stated tiiat tijose jieople have been reipiii'ed law and by
de]>artmental regulations to put in certain macliinery from time to time a also change
thill machinery, and they are morco\er reipiired by law to keep their litpmr in stock for
I wo years for |)urpo.scs of I'cctiticalion. l)oy(»u think that all those matters should be
taken into account in enacting any such legislation as is suggested ? That is one of the
things 1 am not able to speak of.
407ft'.>. You have merely cxpressetl your opinion that in principle it would bo
right to make some compen.sation ? —Yes.
/{y Rev. Dr. Mr Lead :
40770. Have you any rea.sou to believe that there is li(|uor .sold by others than
lieenseil vendors? — I have no rea.son to lielievt; it, none whatever.
40771. ICave you rea.son to belitvo that the licensees sell during proliibited hours?
No. If they did T would consider it my duty to inform the constable, and he would
go and haul the parties up. I have known one or two cases where there have been
violations of the law, but very few of them since the new Sumhiy Closing Act wa.-t
passed.
40771.'. \'ou do not olWcially have anything to do with cases of drunkenness? — No.
1 am a provincial constable and as such would \h'. expected to assist in maintaining
g(MKl order.
40773. But it is not, properly speaking, your duty? -I am Sheriff", and I am also
a provincial constable.
40774. Is ther«' much drunkenness in the town ?- I do not think there is a great
deal. ( )n Saturday evenings you will find stime more or le.ss drunk, but it must be
remembered that this is a mi.ved community, compo.sed of a great many different classes
of jieople.
40775. How is it alH>ut pay day : are thei'<! many who get drunk on that day ?--
Not as many as I have seer, in many other places in Bi-itish Columbia. T know that it
was so in Itidgetield on Saturday and Sunday.
4077G. Did they have free sale in that place? — No, it was under licen.se.
40777. But in your opinion it wouhl Iw just as well not to have licenses but to let
any man who likes start and sell litiuor, if he please.s, on paying a fee ?- My feeling is
that there should be a license, and a good one, but I do not believe that a certain num-
ber of people shoukl have the business.
SA.MUEL DrAKK.
554
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4077H. Yiiu (1(1 not li«>li(>v(t ill a inoii(i|N)ly ? No, tlici*> Mlmiild Im> a liciMisc, miil n
gtXMl iiti«>, iilld if II lioUHit \i()liitt'(l tilt- law it shmllil lie i'IiihciI.
I077!*. .VsSliciill', liiivt' you tddii with liicsiiidnM climes that imiiii. surii as iiiiinl»>r,
l)iir>{liiry, ct*'. Have you iiiui'li of tliat fi'iinc in yoiii- liailiwick .' Wi- luivi> vciv littlf
of that chiKS of criini' in thf (listrict, liiit at prcNt-iit w»i mccih to iii> sutVt'iin;; from oiii* or
two cast'H.
M)7H(). Has<' you iiotioMl (hiring thtt years of youiolUciiil ihilics wlictlu'raiiv |iiii|Hir-
tioii <jf till' t'rinic you ha\f to deal witii as chief executive otlici.|' js ti'acealih-, directly or
indirectly, to tht* drink tratlii and the drink haiiitf Most of tiie crime I am hit i^ht in
connection with arises from lii|Uor. In nine cases out of ten when men commit excesses
they do so when drunk ; at all evciitM, that is the «?.\cuse they make.
407H1. Do you tind that crime is related in any way to the drink lialiit and tratlic ,'
— A fact that struck me in rejjard to one or two cases of a more than ordinarv serious
nature was that I think they did not arise from drink at all.
t()7Hl.'. Do you think that drink had no connect ion with them ,' Not that I know of.
407H.'l. Tn thei'tMiiuch .sale to Indians? 'i'liere is an Act |)i'ohil>itiii;; Indians from
getting; any li<|Uor at all. Once in a while wc pick u|i adiunken Indian and ini|nii»
where h(! irot liijuor, and he will point out th(> man who supplied it : tiien the party is
arrested and suWject to a tine of ^"lO or as lii^^h as ^MUt), and in addition six months' im-
priHonment.
407lS-t. Have you had many siu h cases f There are always some of these \endors in
the jail.
4078;"). ])o you know if there are many cases of sale to Indians .' I should imagine
there w(>re hundreds. T have a ;;ood deal to do with Indians. .\n Indian is always a
pnstty d(H'ent fellow when he issolier, as most of them are, hut when they;,'ei drunk they
Hi'om to lose all respect for the rij;litsof any other party in their immediate nei<.di)ioui'hiHMl,
ni il they aro ca]ia))lu of doini; thinj^s when drunk that they would never do when soU-r.
40"H(i. Are they (piiet and sohei' j,'encrally /--Yes, they arc all ii;;lil as Ion;; as they
are sober.
Jii/ Jud(/e McDonnld :
40787. In cases of sale of liipior to Indians, what class of people make the sales .' —
Very low fellows.
40788. They are not licen.sed dealers, I suppose .' .No. I am \ery ulad you men-
tioned that point. In a number of ca.sesthey are men from the ships and ari- awy ilown
in the social scale, and the liipior is sufiplied by men for the sake of money. When any-
thin;; of that kind occurs it is always doiu- by a fellow who is ilown about as far as he
can p't ; however, it is very seldom done.
ANDREW HASLEM, of Nanaimo. snw-mill owner, on lirinj.' duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
Jiy Judge. McDonald :
40789. Do you occupy any public po.sition i — I am Mayor of this city.
40790. How Ion;; have you resided here? — Alxiut elt^ven veal's.
40791. How Ion;; have y.)U been in British Columbia .' — Aliout seventeen years.
40792. Where did you reside before you came to Nanaimo ? — In New Westminster.
4079;{. That is the mainland ?— Yes.
40794. Did you come here from one of the other provinces .' -I came here from New
Brunswick, but I am an Irishman by birth ; I came herefrom Albert, Kin;r"s ('(tunty.
4079."). Since you came here has a license law always been in force (Yes.
40790. How long have you been Mayor? Since 1st .laiuiary last.
40797. Have you found this country to be orderly and law-abidinj; / I think so,
espticially considering that it is a minini? coiiimunity and there are a great many vessels
555
Liquor Traffic — Hritisii Coluinbiji.
(•••miiii; and !;<iiii;; all tlic time. Tlifrc jii't- a lafi,'"' nuiiilicr ut' saijurs lierc and tlic wiijics
|)aiil arc iiinlicr tliaii tlmsc paid in otlicf jiiaccs : and I think ex ciytliini; cuiisidiM'cd tiie
law is t'airly well carried out.
407!tS. |)<i you lind many |i('o|ilc Ium-c from diU'ci-cnt parts of" the <;lolic .' Yes.
407(l!t. Difl'erent parts ot' Kiirope ?• Y'es : tiieic Italians, Mcli;ians, Swedes, Cliinesf',
(Iei-mans, a few Hns«ians, Scotchmen, I'.ishmen and l'-ni;lislnnen.
JOSIXI. What is the population of the city .'- Alioul ."),II0().
4()M)1. Of the ])opulation, what proportion would l)e minei's, in round fij,'ures ? — The
principal i^jdustvy carried on here is mining. Tn fact over half of the ahle i)odied men
are miners.
HlSttll. You say the foi-ei;;n popidation is of a float ini; kind .' Y'es : I haso not con-
sidered them in the po])ulation.
lUSti.'t. Have you anythinu; to do otlicialiy with the carrying' out of the lii-ens(> law 1
— I am chairman of the ISoard of l,icensinjj; Commissioners.
4<iS0l. How many licensed places are there at the jiresent time .'—*_'•_'.
IOM>"t. Are they all hotels.' The retail ])!aces all have hars. There are very few
of them that i)retend totfi\i' meals, although they will do so if ri'ipiired.
40f<()t). Under the terms of the license are they recpiired to ;,'ive meal.s ? - Yes, that
is the undcrstandinj;.
4()S07. How many wholesale licenses arc there.' — Tlii-rc is otdy oiu'.
40S0N. Have you reason to lielieve there is any unlicensed sale in this city? — I
liave not.
408()!l. So far as your experience yoe-;, is the license law well ohserved hy tho
licensees.'- I think .so.
lOSld. 1 mean as regards Sunday sale and everythiui; of that kind. Y\'e oecii-
sionally hear complaints, hut when you comi' to tiaccout the complaints it is very ditUeult
to say that infraction of the law has taken place. I think that the present licen.se law
recjuires a little ameialment.
lOSll. Kindly state to the (."ommission in what way you wish the law amendt'd,
arid ifive any information that occurs to you on the subject .' While the Sund.iy law
prohibits the sale of licpior on Sunday, it does not prohibit people sittin<? in the bar
r<H)ms. and ! think it would be more ell'ecti\i' if the law was amended so that people
should not lie allowed to sit in the bar Kioms.
lOSli'. You would have the law iimended so as to lia\c the bar rooms closed up
entirely.'- — Y'e.s. At the i)i'esent time it is almost impossil)le to see whether people are
drinkinir there or not. It is a sci'v .'a.sy matter for a ])ei'son to stop drinkinj^ the
moment the otlicer comes in : he can simjtlv sit down. If the licensees were compelled to
dose the bar .ilto^^et her, it would be very much belter.
lOSl-'i. You say there are '_'"_' licenses ;;ranted here,' That is the nundier as nearly
as I can remcnd)er.
40S14. From your experience, do you deem it advisable to limit the nund)er of
licenses jiianted / Yes I do.
40Sl."i. What about the amount of license fee ; would you be in favour of a higher
license fee ? Our license fee hei
1'
I I
pclieve, largei- than m any other place in tin
)lii
th
40S1(). How much is it
■:m).
40f<17. Does that fee yo to the City ( iovcrniiK'iil or to the I'i'ovincial (iovernment .'
— The city claims its own license fees.
40Sli^. Are vou favourable to a liceir " law or ti; ■■-lohibition .' — I tliink if prohibition
oou
Id be carried out, it would bebettei' for tl
le communitv.
4081'.*. Then on princijile you are in favour of |)rohibition ? I think .so.
40H20. Have you doubt as to the practicability of carryinj; it out 1 — Ye:
40S-_'l. What would be the main dillicultv
This is a sparsely settled country, am'
it would be \ery ditlicult to apprehend people well accpiainted .-. ith the country, who
dd
w-niul smugsrle
40S'Jl\ Are there any difficulties in the way of carrying <»n smuf;}{lin<f operation;
I do not think it would be jiossible to prevent snu;L;gling,
,7
AXURKW Ha.sle.m.
556
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
10S"J.'$. Arc yuii ahic to s|ic.ik fnnu iiit'oriiiatiiin iis to tlic imldic tV.'liiii,' in ilii'
j)iovinct' as a wliolc in •(••{iird ti» tlic siilijcct i>t' |)niliil)itit>u .' -No, I raiiiiot miv iIijm I am.
IUSl'I. Do you tliiiik tlifi'c is as st'oii-,' a sciitiiMfiit in t'a\ our ot' total |iriiliil)iiioii as
tlnTt' is ill favour ot the Sunday closing; law? No, I do not iliiid< then- is.
KISlT). TIk^ Sunday closinj,' law connufiuis itsrll" to tlii' ^'rratrr' portion ot' tli<' |)i>o|ilc ,'
— Yi's, I tliinlv .so.
40)^li(i. Have you had any i-xiicricncc in a country where |iroliiliit ic>n was in t'orci" .'
- -I may say that I liavo hccn in M;iinc, hut not. lonu cnoiii;!i to imihIiIc nic to form an
opinion as to the working,' of the law there.
I()Sl'7. Ill case of the eiiactineni of a ;.'eiieral prohihilorv law, a law to proiiihit the
uiaiiufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic lii|Uors for Ijevcra^'e pur|)oses. do voii
think it rifjlit that, hrewers and distillei-s should receive conipeiisatioii for their jilaiii
and machinery that would lie rendered useless I -Yes, f think so. Tor thin' estalilished
the Itusincss with the consent of the law, and if thosn interests are prohihited, I think
thi' parties shouhi he com|)ensated.
lUSJM. llaM' you any facilities pro\ide<l fo' .he reereation of the people, micIi .is
jiarks, etc. Ye.s, there a^.=^ a minilxM" of places.
-I0!^21t. Do you iilid thf Jieople avail themselves of those places of resort .' Yes,
more so than in most cities.
I()H;U). Do you find them of adxanlaye to the peojile .' \'es.
lUf^.'U. Are then any suu^festions you desire to otl'er to the ( "ommissioii in rej;ard
to the license law /-—No, I do not kimw of any at the present nioment.
Jiy lie,'. Dr. .Urh,,,/ .-
40H.'^2. The Sunday closiin; feature of the licensi- law is a recent amendment, "I
believe? Yes.
lOSH.'J. Prior to that clause, was there much drinkiiiij; on Sunday.' — There was a
irood deal of driiikini; on Sunday.
lOS.'U. Tlit^ closiiii;- of saloons hy law has diininislied that, I >iUppose? -Yes. I
helieve it has.
I()S.'<"|. llase you r'-a.son lo l>elic\e that the licensees oliserve that feature of the
law, or do they sell more or less because of the little defect in the law of which \ou
have spoken? I do no*, wish to lie uiiderstooil as indicat iiij; that they tak(.' advanta;,'e
of that, hut 1 am speakin;' of the law from an ollicial point of view, in ca.se of the law
(x-inji violated it is di'Mcult ii> secure conviction owinj; to this dilliculty.
■U)8;j(i. I'^roni yoiT ohservatioii, do you think there is more or less drinkin;; now
than there was forniorly, when you came here lirst? I •hink iliere is less in proportion
til the |io])ulatioii.
4US.'{7. To what do you attrihtite that chanu;e !- 1 think there is a <,'rowini,' senti-
ment in fa\nu'' of prohibition and temperance, and that is ;,)i]iMreiit all o\ er t he pid\ iiice.
■lUS.'JS. Do you think it svould be well in Nanainio to lia\ce\cn fewer licenses than
you have now, the number beiii;; llJS : does that include tli ■ wlmlesale lieenses '/--No ;
thero are L*M retail.
40Ht'ii(. Diiyou think it would be well to have fewer liicnses in this city?- I think
the fewer licenses there are, the less driiikinji there is.
10S40. Twenty two licences would be e(|ual to one bcense for every I'L'') of the
pojiulation, which would be ample to satisfy the desires of the people ? You must bear
in mind tluit the immediate districts are thickly pojiulated and that the people do most
of tiieir business here.
40841. Are there licenses in those districts? — Very^ tew ; there are one or two
houses.
lOSl-J. Most of the trade is done here ? Yes.
4084.'{. You have e.vpressed yourself in favour of the principle of prohibition, if
such a law could be enforced ; but you think there would be dilliculty in regard to its
enforcement. Do you think prohibition would still further lessen the amount of
drinking if it did not prohibit it entirely ? — J think it would.
557
i:
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
SAMUEL GOFF, of Naiiiiiiiio, on being duly .sworn, deposed as follows : —
Jiy Judge McDonald :
40H44. Do you liold any official position ? — Yes, I am Clerk of tlie City.
40845. How long have you resi(l(^d in Xanaimo ? — About ;36 years.
40H4fi. How long have you resided in this province ? — All that time.
40847. Did you come here from England / — ^Yes.
4084H. How long have you been City Clerk I — Twelve years.
40<^4'J. Are you secretary of the Licensing Board ? — Yes.
40850. Do you act as clerk of the Police Court ?— No.
• 40851. The Mayor has told us that there are 'I'l retail licensed places in the city
and one wholesaled — I think there are 21 retail and 2 wholesale.
40852. Can you tell us the fee paid for a wholesale license? — ^100 a year.
40853. And for a retail license ? — !?300 a year.
40854. Do the licensees have to pay any additional sum to the province ? — I do
not think so.
40855. Of whom is the Licensing Board composed ? — That difiers with the regula-
tions provided for in the Act. Mow it, is composed of the Mayor, two J ustices of the
Peace, one alderman and the Police Magistrate.
4085(5. Then the Board is composed of five members? — Yes.
40857. Who selects the Justices of the Peace? — The municipal council.
40858. The Board has power to grant licen.ses to applicants on their confornnng to
the condition'i of the law, I suppose? — Ye.s.
40859. You have a class of people whoha-iing had licenses before the new Act came
into operation, merely pay their fees and hold a. license during good behaviour ? — Yes.
40860. Have you had any case in which an old licensee has forfeited his license
owing to bad conduct ? — No.
408(51. The law came into force before your term commenced? — Yes. The license
law as it is now is much better than it was .some time ago.
40862. The Sunday closing feature is a new one, I Iwlieve I Yes.
40863. Do you find that to be a move in the right direction? — Yes. I believe it
decreased drinking on Sunday.
408G4. The Mayor has suggested that it would l)e as well to have the bars closed
as well as sales prohilnted. What is your opinion in regard to that ? — It is the only
way of making the law eti'ective.
40865. TluMi you would have the bar-n»oni slmt up entirely ? — Ye.s.
40866. And not permit it to become .i geheral resort on Sunday ? — No.
40867. Are you favoural)le to license or to a prohibitory law? — I am a prohi-
bitionist.
40868. In sentiment ?— Yes.
4086!). Are you ojtposed to a license law ? — I prefer a license law to free traffic.
40870. Failing j)rohibition, do you look upon license as a necessary evil ! — T think
it is the next best thing to prohibition.
40871. Judging fioni your exjierience do you think a general prohibitory law could
be enforced? — I think it could be enforcwl as well i.s any other law.
40872. Do you mean any other law that might l>e passeil by the Legislature' — ■
Yes ; all laws ai'e violated, though not all to the same extent.
40873. Can you suggest to the Ct)mmission means of enforcement that would make
a piohibitory law possible to be carried out? — I could not say that I have any such
suggestion to oflFer.
40874. Have you considered the subject from that point of view ?_Yes.
40875. You would expect that any law passed by the Legislature would Ik* enforced 1
— Yes ; I believe the people are sufficiently law-abiding to fall in with that view.
40876. Have you lived in any country where a prohibitory law was in force? — No.
40877. Do you think there would be smuggling in tlie event of the adoption of a
prohibitory law ? — There might be a little of it, if they hjul the liquor near.
Samuel Goff.
558
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
40878. Would you favour a law that would prohibit tlic manufacture, iiiijiortation
and sale of alcoholic liijuors for beverage purposes J — Yes, and tiie law would he no "ood
unless it went that far.
40879. Can you name such a country where there is a law like that in force? I
can not say that I can. i have heai'd of places where tiiey have pi'oliii)ition.
40880. Name them ? — Prince Edward Island and parts of the United States, such
as Kansas. '
40881. The law in Prince Edward Island counties is what is called the Scott \ct ?
—Yes.
40882. There are, of course, prohibitory clauses in the piTs"nt license law, i)ut all
those laws allow a man to import li(|Uor for his own use and give it awav to his friends.
Is that the kind of a law you tlesire .' — No.
4088.'J. You would have prohil)ition that would prohibit liquor from comin" in l
—Yes.
40884. Will you please name any country where such a law is in force? I could
not tell you.
40885. It has been stated to the Commission that there is such a law in the Fiji
Islands. Have you any knowledge in regard to that matter 'I — ^No.
40880. In case of thc^ enactment of a general ])rohibitorv law, doyou think it would
be right to compensate brewers for their plant and machinery rendereil useless? For
their actual loss perhaps.
Jii/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
40887. Has drunkenness increased oi- decreased in Nanainio during your recollec-
tion ?— I think in proj>ortion to the population it is less now than it was in former
years.
40888. Is thei'e much ailvocacy of temperance in this province ? — Theie is a little
work going on all the time.
4088!». By the churches ?— Yes, and l)y the temperance societies.
40890. \)n they accom])lisli much ? — 1 think sd.
40891. Do you attribute the change in the drinking huijiis of tlie people to the
efforts of the churches and temperance societies ?- -Yes.
40892. Do you think the work carried on b}- these societies has brought /ibout the
changes in the license .system whicii you think have made the law so much better than
it was previously .' — Petitions have been sent to the Legislature asking for a change and
for further improvements in the law, ami they have Ijeen successful to that extent.
4089;}. You have spoken alxnit the present license system being pi'Ciferable to ilio
former one. What is the chief difference between the old one anil the one now in
existence? — The jiresent law reiiuii-es that certain conditions shall lie fultillcd bv the
applicant and that consent of two-thirds of the lot owners and tlicir wives in the
neighbourliood where the licenseil ])l;ice is to Ite ioca'cd shall be obtained.
408it4. J)o the applicants always do that?— Not always.
4089"). Do they receive licenses? — No.
40890. Ihit those who have licenses, the 2."1 places in Nanainio, did secure the
necessary signatures? — Yes, those tiiat have l)ecn granted since the new law came in
three years ago; 10 licenses were graiiti'd liefore that.
40S'J7. Then those Itido not come uncler the ojieralioii r)f the license law ] — Not to
till' same ('Xtent as those licensed afterwards do.
40898. Then there aio live new licensees who lia\f had to comply with those
regulations ? — Yes.
40899. Supposing " A " aiijilies foi' a liceiis*! and gets the necessary signatures of
two-thirds of the lot owners and tlieii' wives, and " M" also wants a license to sell as
well as " C " and " D ": could " B, ' " C '' and " D's" petitions Ix- signed by tiie same two-
thirds who signed " A's' petition for a license in the same block I That would be for
the Board to decide.
40900. Has any such case arisen ? — No.
40901. Does evei-y applicant have to get a fresh set of signatures to his petition ? —
Yes.
m
ir
1 1
M
! I
J
m
liiquor Traffic — liritish (Miimbia.
I0y0"_'. May they havo t lit' sjiiiu' iieojilc mi tlioir jiftiticuis iis tlit-y liad l)et'orc .' —
There is nothin;; to prevent it.
lO'JO^t. Si» any one i-ould lie in tlie saints Moi-k and have a license it' they yot two-
thirds of the lot owners and their wives to sitjn tin; petition? — Yes.
lOitOl. As to the 1() licensees who have licenses in perpetuity simply liecmisc thev
happened to make application for a license hefore the present law came in, I understand
they have not to make application to the Board for- renewal of license? — That has been
.since a year a<;o. The lice n. sees who havi- heen granted licenses since then have to niiike
ap[)licalion every six months for renewal. .
lUi)U."). Ha\t' those Kl men presented jtetitions si;;ned liy two-thirds <if the lot
owners and their wives? — They are not re(|uired to do so.
lOOUi). They siiii])ly step up and pay the fee? — Yes ; there are '20 licenses, hut only
one license has been j^rantiMl since the new law came into operation.
■101)07. So I'O out of '2\ <,'«• rij^lit on by jiayinif the fee, and nothin;; is said .' — Yes.
-tOOOi'*. l)o you know wluither the licensees observe the provisions df the license law
or not ?— I ilo not know.
401)0'.*. Have you reason tu believe they do or do not? — I suppose some do and
some do not.
40910. The prohibited hours are from 11 o'cock .Saturday night until ^londay
iiioriiin<»? - Ye.s.
40i)l 1. Do you think it would be well to ha\e a law prohibitinjjf sale after 10 or 1 1
at night and befort^ fl or 7 in the morning? — 1 think it would be of very great
advantage.
40912. Do you enter the police court records ? — No.
40913. Who is Clerk of the police court?—! think the Chief of Police copies the
record for the Police; Magistrate.
40914. Has drunkenness increased or decreased during your I'ecollection of this
city ?-— It has dccrea.sed in propoi'tion to the population.
4091 "). Have you reason to believe there is illicit sale in this city? — T think there
are some places that could not exist in town unless they sold liquor.
40911). Are they persons who have no licenses ? Yes.
40917. Are there no attemjits made to bring those offenders to book for viulatiun
of the law ?— 1 tlo not know of any.
Jii/ Judge McDonald :
40918. Have you, as City Clerk, represented that condition of things and reported
those places ? -I have indirectly.
40919. You have called the attention of the authorities to them ? I have not called
attention to them otticially.
40920. l$ut you have done so as an individual citizen ? — Yes.
40921. And no ett'orts have been made to siipprt^ss them? — No.
40921'. Do yciu know whether the police oHiceis have made intpiiries and found
that the', could not prove the case?— 1 believe they have.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
40923. From your observation of the license law during all those years, is it your
belief that the litjuor law really regulates the trade ? Do 1 understand you to refer to
the nuinbei^of places licensed ?
40924. Does it furniah any regulation to the trade? 1 mean does it regulate or
diminish the traflic ? — Do T understand you to mean this ? Does the license law regu-
late the number of places? It only does so as regards tht; number of applications.
License is ojiposed to free rum.
40925. l)o you think there would be more drinking if there were more licenses ? — I
think there would be more.
4092G. Then do you believe that the restrictions the license law affords are Ijene-
Hcial ? — Yes.
40927. 1 think you have stated that if there were greater restrictions there w\>uld
be greater l)eneHts ? — Y'es.
.S.\MUEL GOFF.
560
as
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
i
JOSEPH PLANTA, Police Magistrate of Nanaiiuo, un being duly sworn, ileposed
as follows : —
Bi/ Judge McDonald :
40928. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — About 20 years.
40!)2l). How long have you lived in Nanaimo? — About 17 years. 1 am also a Jus-
tice of the Peace and Stipendiary Magistrate in and for Vancouver Island.
40M0. Did you come here from one of the other provinces ? — No.
401131. What countryman are you ? — I am Welsh.
40932. iiave you had any experience in a prohibitory country / — None wluilever.
40933. Has there always been a licen.se law since j'ou came here ? — Yes.
40934. Are you appointed Police Magistrate by the Provincial Government .' — By
the Municipal Government.
4093.J. By what authority' are you appointed a Justice of the Peace and Stipen-
diary Magistrate for the Island? -By the Provincial Government.
4093(). How long have you been Police Magistrate? — Two or three years.
40937. Are cases of infringement of the license law brought before you tor tiial?
—Yes.
4093tS. Cases of men selling during prohibited hours? — Yes.
40939. Cases oi people selling without a license ? — Yes.
40940. How does the license law work here according to youi- experience : arc its
provisions well observed ? — I think so.
40941. Have you many cases of infringemeut of the license law brought before
you ? — Very few ; latterly there have been sonic cases of infringement of the Sumlay
Closing Act, although in each instance there has been conviction.
■'•0942. Have there been many such cjises? — [ think about si,\ altogether.
40943. Ft has been suggested that the law should be amended so as to require bar-
rooms to close on the Sabbath ? — Yes, it would only be fair if that was done. I supjiose
all the licensees really wish to observe tht; law, but they iiave no opportunity, ius at the
present time customers havj' a right to come in.
40944. Have you many cases of unlicensed sale brought before you : I refer to par-
ties selling without license as reijuired l)y law ! - 1 think tiiere have been c.-ises. Two
occurred three years ago.
40945. You have h;id none recently ?--No. F was speaking only a short time ago
to the County Court Judge who, with myself, is a Stipendiary Magistrate, and it appears
that there were cjuite a number of cases bi-ought Ijefore him a short time ago ; altliough
it was in the district, it was outside the city that they occurred. The parties were dealt
with in every ease and were fined.
40946. Were the sales matle to travellers ? — No, there were no licenses granted in
the ilistrict.
40947. How many cases were there ? — There was ipiite a run at that time.
40948. How long ago was it ? — I think it was al>out 3[ay last year.
40949. So far as the city is concerned, have you had many ca.ses ? — No.
40930. Are you able to say from your experience whetlier it would be in the public
interest to have the nuniber of licenses still further reduced and in this way have fewer
licensed houses / — I think the number at the present time is at its extreme limit, unless
there should be a first-class hotel built.
40951. You think the present number is sufficient to satisfy the r.eeds of the com-
munity ? — Yes.
40952. Do you think there are more licensed houses than are needed? — F am the
party who granted those licenses, and I could not answer that question.
40953. We are told that under the law there are a number of people who do not
come under the control hi the Board so long as they conduct their liou.ses properly, and
they are only reijuired to attend and pay their license fees once a year 1 — Yes, they are
all licensed in that way, with one exception.
40954. While the men who hold the old licenses conduct themselves properly t he
Licensing Board has no discretion in renewing the license ? — No, not unless some charge
861
21—36**
II
}l
i ■
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
is laid against them. 1 may say liere as supplementing my answer, that tlie liotel and
sal(M>n-keepers are a very respectab' ehiss here. They arc men of g(Kxl moral ion-
duct and integrity and are of a wortl.y class. I think we may attrihute very much the
law-abiding character of the community to tlicir high positibn and standing, tor they
are men aliove all smallness.
40955. Y<ju have a population hereof a rather cosmopolitan class, I believe? — Yes.
4095G. The people include all nationalities ? — Yes.
40957. And they are to some extent a seafaring population ? — Yes.
40958. Taking the jxjpulation as a whole, do you think this a sober and lay-al»iding
eonnnunitv l — Yes, very much so ; there is a great absence of crime.
40959. Have you noticed a change in the social customs of the people during the
jtast few years in regard to the use of intoxicating liquors'! — I have not noticed any, as
I do not t're(|uent drinking places.
409C0. I am speaking in i-egard to social customs among the people as a class? — I
think there is more ased in private houses than formerly and more licjuor in the shape
of beer.
40961. To what do you attribute that change ?— Probably because it is more easily
obtained now than it was then. In fact, in former days it could not be obtained. A
very large number of the workingmen are very well situated as regards their homes and
houses. Many of them live in their own houses on their own lots and at considei-.:l)le
distances from the jjublic-houses, and some of them keep beer in their house and they do
not have to send for it to the public-houses.
40962. As between a general prohibitory law and the license law, which as a mat-
ter of principle do you support 1 — As a matter of princij)le I would go for prohibition, if it
were practicable.
4096.'i. Do you think it would be practicable ? — T fear not, not until the people are
educated up to it. T think the present generation will have to pass away before tiiat
takes place. The incoming generation may see liquor being used more as a medicine
than as a beverage.
40964. So in the present state of things you think it would be impracticable to
carry out such a law ? — I do.
40965. In case of the passage of such a law, d . you think it would be right to
remunerate brewers and distillers foi- their loss of plant and machinery ? — If I looked
ujion their licenses as vested rights, then I would remunerate them if it cost .$20,000,000.
40966. Take the cases of men in your own province who have had license up to the
present time and will retain them so long as they conduct themselves well, do you
think it right that such men should be remunerated in the event of the enactment of a
general prohibitory law ? — I consider they have vested interests in a certain degree, an<l
I cannot think otherwise.
40967. Take now the cases of people who obtained licenses under the new law and
who are required to obtain a retiewal from the boai'd every six months? — Their ciises
would be somewhat different of course for they have only mnninal claims.
40968. Does the fact that those people have to apply every six months for a renewal
of the license very materially reduce their claim ? — Not altogether, for it must be remein-
1)ered that many of those people have invested thousands of dollars in fulfilling the i)ro-
visions of the license law, and the buildings would be of very little value apart from
the license.
40969. Have you heard of special provisions in regard to hotels having 30 beil-
rooms ? — In case of an hotel with 30 bed-rooms the party has a right to come before the
Judge and obtain a license. There is no such hotel now running. The Act is very like
the Ontario law. A bill was prepared three or four years ag(j and it w-as intended to be
introducetl by the late Hon. J.'imes Kobson, in which it was proposed to give licenses in
the same mannei- as under the Ontario License law. It embodied a certain amount of
local option.
40970. Take the cases that come before you as Stipendiary Magistrate, does any
proportion of them arise from the use of intoxicating liquors t — Yes, a large proportion,
at least three-fourths.
Joseph Planta.
562
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
40971. What class of cases 1 — Cases of violation piobabl}', and there are also cases
where men have infringed the Indian Liquor Act.
4097^*. What class of people sell to Indians ?— ^.Meti who arc drunk at the time, but
sometimes .seamen who are not aware of the law.
4097;i. Have you had any such cases brouj^ht a;,'ainst licensed dealers ( -No, tliey
do not do that. There is no such thing doim by our licenseil men ; the}' would not do it.
40974. Are there people here who come regularly before you chargeil with drunk-
enness / — There are only a few of such people here.
4097r>. In other cities we found that there are men who are brought up frequently
and sentenceil and sent to jail and then c(jme up again and keep light on doing so. From
your expei'ience, do you think it would be lietter to send those men to inebriate asylums
with a view to their reformation? — 1 thank your Honour for that suggestion. 1 have
often thought it seemed harsh to continue to punish men in that way and I think there
is a lack of justice about it. It would be Iwtter to subject such drunkards to confine-
ment for a certain j)eriod in an inebriate asylum.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
4097t;. Speaking of the treatment of inebriates, would you make that a public
charge? — Yes, in cases where parties were unable to pay themselves ; otherwise it should
not be made a public expense.
40977. You would do so in cases where the men were not able to pay, in order to
relieve their families? — Yes.
40978. I suppose you have the police court records I — We occupy a singular posi-
tion here altogether. Although I am a Pt)lice Magistrate and appointed by the city,
yet we are not separated from the provincial authorities, but are entirely connected with
them. So long as the (Government remains as it is to-ilay, they keep part of the tine ami
they keep the records too.
40979. Have you made a return from your records? — Yes, a return has been made.
40980. Did your record of drunkenness showan increa.se or decrease with old returns ?
— I think they showed an increa,se in proportion to the increase in po}iulation that has
taken place. A man comes in fi'om Vancouver and the first thing he does is to go and
get drunk. He brings perhaps §-.50 with him, and pays 50 cents for bed and breakfast,
and spends the rest in liquor.
40981. Have you licensed places which sell to such a man after he is drunk?— Not
after he has got drunk.
40982. Such a man you say spends $2 out of $2.50 in drink : have you licensed
places which sell to such men.- — I do not know. I suppose if a man insists on getting
drunk he will do so and get the drink. If he was drunk, of course he could not get it.
40983. I had obtained the idea from your statements that your licensed men were
such honourable men ? —They include a large number of men of the highest integrity and
they are a very high class of men.
401»34. Is there any way in which we could get a transcript of your records? — I
should like to say that we are very l)usy people here, and as I only got your intimation
to be here at a late hour I had to give up another appointment in ordei' to be present.
However I can supply a copy of the record.
40985. I think you said about three-fourths of the cases coming before you were
those of drunkenness? — Cases arising indirectly or directly from the use of alcoholic
liquors.
40986. Have you observed whether crime of one kind or another has diminished in
Nanaimo during your term of office ?— I have been on the Bench as Justice for the hust
16 years, and so long as we had no floating population (just now the policy seems to be
to employ oidy married men rather than single men) crime was quite nominal.
40987. Have you noticed an incroa.se ?— Not according to the population. The
census shows that our population has increased until it now numbers about 4,000.
40988. H.as there been less crime since the Sunday closing Act ? — Yes, certainly ;
there has been a great reduction in Sunday morning drinking.
40989. Was that drinking done by residents here? — By single men who were
residents, but not by men with families.
21— 36i**
663
'f
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
40990. Speaking about licenses : does a license attach to the premises rathei- than
to the individual t — There has been a great deal of disputing in regard to transfers, but
we have been fortunate in having gocKl men come forward. Looking over the names, I
find the men as a rule are a very respectable class and quite trustworthy.
40991. Supposing a man has a license, does that license in any way represent his
district ? — It represents the section. f
40992. Can he transfer it to another ? — Yes, with the consent of the Licensing
Board.
40993. If the building is destroyed, does the license attach to the freehold ? — That
has been the case under the law, but the Board has the power to decide.
40994. I have been recjuested to ask this question: did the men ""ho obtained
licenses recently get them because they secured two-thirds of the names of the lot
owners and their wives in the neighbourhood ? — I should like to answer that question in
this way, that if a man possesses a license by right of the Board granting it, whether
rightly so or not, it rests with members of the community to object to the Board
granting it.
40995. Has the Board discretion in regard to granting licenses 'i — I think the Boai-d
has discretion only when the conditions have been fullilled. Whether it has that
discretion or not, it assumes it and grants licenses ; and what are you going to do
about it ?
40996. Supposing membeis of the community did object, would the Board still
grant it ? — I do not know, I do not think so.
40997. The Board stands between the licensee and the people 1— Yes.
40998. As a sort of buflfer ?— Yes.
40999. Can the Board refuse to grant a license when the conditions have been
complied with 1 — Yes, they can refuse.
41000. But they cannot grant a license when the conditions have not been
fulfilled ? — That is a matter of discretion.
41001. Does it strike you that those provisions inserted in the license law have
been fruitless ? — I never saw an Act of Parliament through which you could not drive a
coach and six. The license law is one that requires renewing every six years.
41002. From your residence and observation, can you say what eflPect the licjuor
trade in Nanaimo has on the various interests of the community ? — I think it would be
very much better if there were no licensed places at all ; but considering the number of
places, I do not think there has been an amount of evil above the average. There is
always a certain amount of evil in this world, and no doubt there have been cases here,
but not more than in other communities.
41003. From your observation, is a considerable amount of the evil due indirectly
or directly to the use of liquor ? — I do not look upon it as being due to the trade, but to
the excessive use of liquor.
By Judge McDonald :
41004. When a man has more than 30 rooms do we correctly understand that he
may go to the Board and have his license renewed, without having the required number
of signatures 1 — Yes.
41005. And a man with less than 30 bed-rooms has to have the signatures? — Yes.
41006. Then he must have the proper number of signatures of lot owners and their
wives : or can the Board decide ? — Yes, it is a question for the Board.
By Rev. Br. McLeod :
• 41007. How many of the present number of licensees have handed in petitions signed
by the lot owners and wives ? — I think only three or four altogether.
as
Joseph Planta.
664
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
THOMAS O'CONNOR, Chief Constable of Niirniiino, on being duly sworn, deposed
as follows : —
liy Judye McDonnId :
41008. By whom are you appointed? — By the Municipal Council.
41009. How long have you held your piesent othce? — Going on eigiit years.
41010. How long have you resided in Nanainio.'— I have been hero in the vicinity
of thirteen years.
41011. How long have you been in British Cohunbia? — All alnjut that time.
41012. IJid you come here from one of the other provinces? — No, I came here from
the United States.
410i.1. Wiiat is the strength of the police forc(> in Nanaimo?— Only two regular
city officer.s, myself and one other at the present time ; that is since last July.
-There is a jailer and assistant jailer.
41014. How many provincial otlicers are hen
two convict guards and a constable.
41015. Those are provincial otlicers? —Yes. ^
41016. Who is in command of them? — ^\'m. Stewart.
41017. Are you called upon to make many arrests in Nanaimo during a year? — Tlie
number of arrests varies.
41018. Taking the city as a whole and taking the character of the population, do
you find this to be an orderly city? — T do.
41019. We have been told that you have a population including .seafaring men and
miners and people of diflFerent nations?— Yes, we have a large floating population foreign
to the city.
41020. Have those provincial otlicials anything to do with the enforcement of the
city regulations 1 — No.
41021. So you and your brother officer attend to tho-se matters?— Ye.s.
41022. Are cases of persons arrested by you all tried before the Police Magistrate?
— All cases for the city and district are tried by him.
41023. Have you lived in any prohibition country? — ^No, I have not.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
41024. Have cases of drunkenness iiicrea.sed or decreased here, Ix'aring in mind the
increased population? -Taking the incri'a.se of population and comparing the number
with a similar period during the past few years, I could not say that the number has
increased very much, but I tiiink it has increased a little.
41025. Then you think it has increased a little more than the population? — Yes.
41026. Have you many arrests for other offences than di'unkenness, offences such iis
disoixlerly conduct, assaults, petty thefts and the like ? —The principal arrests we have here
are for drunkenness, drunk and incapable, and drunk and disorderly.
41027. About how many of such ca.ses have you during the month? — Some months
we have very few; they might Ije limited to 25 or .'iO other months and even I'un some-
times to 50 and 60. We .sometimes go a full week and do not have a single case.
41028. Do those cases average 40 during a month ?- -No, they do not. Tht! police
records will show they do not.
41029. Do you keep a regular record of arrests? — There is a rr-gular record kept by
the chief otficer of the provincial police. There are not 40 cases a month belonging to
the municipality. Cases come here from Comox and as far dosvn as Cowichan and out
to Wellington ; some of these cases from Wellington come in here. They all came here
previous to last year. Now they have many of them dealt with out there.
41030. Of the other offences for which you make arrests offences, like disorder and
breaches of the law, do you think any proportion of them are attributable to the drink
habit and the drink trafiic ? — Most of the arrests within my time have been attributable
to the drink.
41031. Have you noticed whether there is an increase of drunkeiniess and troubles
growing out of drunkenness, about pay day ? — I think I can honestly say that latterly,
especially since February, when the Sunday closing law went into force, we have had
less drunkenness than previously, owing to the saloons being closed on Sunday.
565
II!
;,
l!
J;
ii
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
41032. You think, then, that the Sunday closing regulation has produced g<K)d
effects f — Yes.
41033. Have you, as Chief Constable, rea.son to believe the licensees do sell more
or less on Sunday, or do they observe tlio law? — In regard to tliat matter, I can only
say that there have l)een no signs of sale visible to me. No doubt some of them do sell
on rare occasions, but I never saw any signs of sale, except on rai-e occasions, when the
parties were arrested and punished. The way the present law is framed now allows
the place to be open, but no sales are allowed and as tliere are saloons within a radius
of l| miles it is pretty hard for two officers to keep watch all the time. Of course, I go
by the conduct of the people on the streets.
41034. Do you think it would be well to have that feature of the law changed and
have it more strict, compelling bar-rooms to be closed up entirely on Sunday 1 — Yes, I
think it would be a gootl thing.
41035. Have you noticed whether any bar-rooms keep open all night, except on
Saturdays? — Yes, some do ; but as a general thing, they jire closed from 11.30 until
2.00 in the morning.
41036. Do you know whether in connection with the bar-rooms there are pool and
billiard rooms and other games? — Tliere are only a couple of houses reported to have
any gambling.
41037. Are there any laws against gamblii.,'? — Yes.
41038. You think there are one or two reported to have gambling appliances ?— I
did not say appliances, for I have never known of any chance games being carried on in
the city. On three occasions they attempted to cai-ry on a game of faro, but the parties
were not allowed to remain here. We have never had sucli games in the city within
my time.
-About 25 or 26 years, or nearly
was boi'ii in
WILLIAM McGregor of Xanaimo, colliery managei', on being duly sworn,
deposed as follows : — ,
By Judge McDonald :
41039. How long have you resided in Nanaimo?-
all my life.
41040. Did you come here from one of the other provinces ?-
Victoria, B. C.
41041. How long have you been manager of the colliery? — About 6 years.
41042. How many men do you emjiloy in the mines ? — Between 1,200 and 1,300.
41043. Are those men all under your charge? — Yes.
41044. How are they as regards their habits in the use of intoxicating drinks ; are
they a sober class or otherwise ? — They are a sober class.
41045. Are the majority of the men married or single ? — I think most of them are
married.
41046. Are they composed of people of different nationalities? — About two-thirds
of them are English and the rest are composed of different nationalities.
41047. European, I suppose? — Yes, but we have men from all countries.
- 41048. Have you any Chinamen ?— Above ground, but not underground.
41049. Have you observed the working of the license law since you have been here ?
— I cannot say that I have very carefully.
41050. We have been told that since the enactment of the Sunday closing Act,
there has l)een a decrease in drunkenness ? Have you noticed any decrease amongst
your own men ? — Yes, I have, it has had a good efiect.
41051. Have you considered the question of prohibition versus license ? — Yes.
41052. Which do you favour ? — I certainly favour prohibition, but I am not prepared
to say that it could be carried out here.
Thomas O'Connok.
67 Victoria
Sessiciial Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
410r)3. But you favour prohibitiun on principle ?- Yo.s,
41054. You consider it would l)e ditticult to luivo it ent'orccd ? -Yes.
4105'). What dilBcultiea do you apprehend in the way of enfonenient / — It wuuVl
perhaps lie a little diilicult to enforce it, hut I do not icnow that it would lie entirely so.
It mi<{ht be so at first, hut I think with elHcient otheials it nii;,'ht he pMssihl.- Ui
enforce it.
41056. Then that would depend on public sentiment?— Yes, that wnuld hii\f a
giKxl deal to do with it.
41057. Do you find the sentiment of tlie people is in favour of this Sunday law. so
far as you have learned it? — Yes, 1 believe so.
41058. Do you think there is the same amount of feeling; in favour of piohibitin;;
the sale of li(|uor altogether ?— I think public .sentiment would 1h' in favour of prohi-
Vjiting it.
41059. Would })ublic .sentiment be as much in favour of prohii)ition as it is in fa\c>ur
fif tliis Sunday Act (-1 do not think .so.
41060. It has not shown itself by legislative action to be so as yet, or iiy tin-
action of electing niembers to the Legislature with tlK)se views, I suppose,'- No.
41061. In case of the enactment of such a general prohibitory law, a law to pro-
liibit the manufacture, importation and sale of intxixicating liipiors for beverage pur-
poses, would you deem it right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation
for their lo.ss of plant and maeliinery? — Yes, T think it would be nothing but fair that
they be compensated.
41062. You .say you have not observed closely the oj)eration of the license law ; but
so far as your ob.servation has gone, are there any amendments you could suggest.' —
One has been suggested, namely, the closing of bar-rooms (tn Sunday and not allowing
admittance to them. 1 think that would have a beneficial etlect.
41063. Can you express an opinion as the number of places in Naiiaimo under the
license law, and whether a further limitation of the number would i)e beneficial 1 — I
think the limitation of the number would diminish the amount of liipior used.
41064. Therefore you are in favour of limiting the number / Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod .• -
41065. Do we understand by your answer that partial proliii)ition wf»uld be bene-
ficial ?— Yes.
41066. Have you noticed that the drink habit alTects your men injuriously to any
degree ? — I cannot say that we have many men who are habitual drunkards, for we
would not keep them. If we find men losing much time we do not keep them.
41067. Do you find that men with the drink ha))it do lose more or less time ? — Yes.
41068. Is he the man wlio gets drunk, or the man who drinks habitually and per-
haps occasionally gets drunk? — Of course the men who drink to excess cannot attend
to their work.
41069. Then it is the rule in your company to dismiss such men? — Yes.
41070. Have you found that the drinking liabits of men have changed of late
years 1 — Y''es. We have less drinking here than formerly.
41071. To what do you attribute that improvement ?- Probably it is due to the
Sunday closing law and also to public sentiment, which is greatly in favour of temperance.
41072. Do you think the fact that your company and probably other companies
refuse to employ drinking men and discharge men for drinking, ha.s some effect? — It
might have some effect.
41073. When a man knows that he cannot get work as a drinking man, that fact
must have some effect on him, I suppose. Y''our company in thus dealing with the
matter do so as a matter of business, because it is not in their interests to do other-
wise ? — Yes.
41074. How often do you pay your men? — Once a month.
41075. Have you noticed that your men after pay day drink more freely than at
other times ? — Yes, as a rule.
41076. Where are your mines situated?— In Nanaimo. We have our works
extended under the river for four or five miles.
567
■
\
!
1 I
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
41077. Are tluTc niiy licensed placoH in the vicinity of the works? -No.
41078, Do you think that if licensed placew were estiihlishcd in the vicinity of your
works they would i)e u nieniice to you?— There are liien.sod jtliiees within hiilf u mile.
4107!). \)o your men live within a radius of half a mile or a mile from your works /
—Some live further away than that.
41080. Are there licensed pl.ces established within those limits?- Yes.
410H1, Have you obsei'ved whether those licensed places offer a stron<{ temjitatioii
to y<iur men to drink ? I Itelieve they are a temptation.
U0H2. Does your company own property within a mile or half mile of the works .'
Yes, they owned UKjst of the property, but a f,'<KMl deal of it has been S(»ld.
41083. Are there licensiul places established on the proi)erty ow> d by the com
pany ? — The company now sell on the condition that the j)roi)er> .il not be used for
licensed j)laces.
41084. Is that a recent rule ?— Y'es. I am now 8i>' ij^ <tf our district j in tin-
city it is different.
4108r), You are speaking of the district art)und the works ? Yes.
4108G. Wiiy is the company so unwilling to have licensed places on their property
in the vicinity of the homos of their employees ? — Jiecause they feel it would be injuri
OU8 to their men.
41087. And, being injurious to their men, it would be damaging (o their t)wn work ?
i^It would.
MARCUS WOLFE, of Nanaimo, insurance agent, on being duly sworn, deposed
us follows : — •
By Judge McDonald :
41088. How long have you resided in Nanaimo? — 11 years.
41089. How long have you lived in British Columbia? — Alx)ut 30 years.
41090. Did you come herefrom one of the other provinces ?~ 1 came here from
the United States.
41091. Have you ever had any experience in a prohibition country ? — T have not.
41092. Taking the province as a whole and taking the character of the people into
account, do you think it is an ordpvly and sober community ? — Very much .so.
41093. How do you find the :ic. nse 'aw work here, satisfactorily or otherwise? —
In my opinion it works satisfsictj.'ily.
41094. Are there any amend men fcs you could suggest in the law itself? Would it
be well to further limit the nuir;!/f r of places ? — I do not think so. My opinion is that
there is as much licjuor sold in 5 places as in 20 places.
41095. AVhat about the amount of the license fee? Do you believe an increased
fee would be beneficial ? — I think it would ; at all events, it would help the revenue of
the city.
41096. Have you considered the question of prohibition ? — No, I cannot .say that T
have gone into it very cai'efully.
41097. Fnmi your experience in this province, do you think a prohibitory law
could be carried out and enforced ? — It would take some time to do it.
41098. What do you mean by some time? — I am not versed in the methods taken
to bring it about, but, taking the state of things in the liquor trade in the province, it
would take some time to biing about a change.
41099. Would it be possible to prohibit people bringing liquor in? — If there was
such a law enacted I do not see how the people could do otherwise than smuggle it.
41100. Do you think they would smuggle it? — Yes.
41101. Are there facilities here for doing so? — Yes.
William McGeeoor.
568
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41102. Do you think the pt^jplc would hri'ivk tlic liiw ? — rndoulitcdly tlicri' woulil
})(• II j,'oo<l (leal of Hiiui>{;^liug. Our itustoiiis Iiiwh iit tlif |>roit>iit tiiuf iirc j^ciiiMally oviuled
iiiul Miiiu^'^'liii>;);oii<> on.
41 IU3. Ill cusu ot' tho <'iiaetiu«>nt of a ^'citoral itroliibitory law, a law to |iroliil>it tlii'
inaiiufartui'f, iiii|)oi-tatioM and salt* of iiitoxicatiii;; lii|Uoi-s fur lM'vi-ra;;<> pui'post-s, do voii
tliiiik hiowiTS and distillers siiould Ix- itMuaiifiated for tla-ir loss of plaitt and macliiiu'rv .'
—Yes.
By liei'. Dr. McLeud:
41 lot. How loii^' have you bt't'ii an iiisui.iiicc agfi.'. .' Onr nioutii.
4110."). Were you in business licrt- l»('for<i'( — Yt's, as a Mifi'i-hant.
4110G. You dealt in i^eneral inercliaiidise, I suppose /—Yes.
41107. Wlirdesale or retail? l5otli.
41108. Has the life insurance company you represent any rule in re^ai-d to ap|)li-
cants who are known as drinkers t -Yes.
41109. What is it? — They <\o not accept any one who either iiiainifaetures or sells
licjuor.
41110. Is tlie reason stated by the company ? —They do not consider such [)arties
good I'isks.
41111. You put the man who drinks little and the man who drinks haliituallv in
the same cate;^ory ? — Yes ; they are very particular as to the apj)licant. That matter rests
withi'...") medical examiner, and the (juestions asked in re;;ard to the part \ an- with
respect to drinkinj,'.
4111l3. In regard to fii'e insurance, have you a rule about risks on buildin^^'s occu-
pied by liquor sellers?— Of course, an a;,'ent has a great deal of discretion in those mat-
ters. The moral character of the a|)plicant has to be considered. Houses connected
with gambling arc; not accepted. Hotels where li(iuor is sold are accepted.
4111.'{. Would the same rate ai>ply to them as toother buildings .' No, a higherrate.
41114. Is it b(!cause li(|Uor is sold thei'e ? Yes.
4111"). Does the proximity of a liipior sti ■(( atl'ect the insura-ue on neighbouring
buildings? — Yes.
41 1 IG. Is there a high rate charged for such ? Yes, generally a higher i-atc.
By Jtidge McDonald :
41117. Is there any additional risk from liquor being stored in a place? — I cannot
say, except in very large quantities ; it would depend on the kind of liipior and if there
was a very large (juantity stored.
41118. If liquor was warehoused, would there be ][a higher late? —Yes, that would
be owing to the inflammable nature of the gocxls.
41119. You have stated that companies are very particular in imjuiring into the
habits of people who desire to insure, and you have said that people wIkj drink to excess
are refused ? — Yea.
41120. Is any (juestion I'aised as b'jtween those wluxh'ink in modei'ation and those
who do not drink at all ? — They will not accept drunkards.
41121. The question is as between men whodrink in moderation and those who are
total abstainers ? — No dilFerenc*! is made.
41122. Would an application by a distiller for life insurance be refused ? — I think
so.
41123. Would Mr. Walker or one of the lirm of tiooderham it Worts be refused
life insurance? — I am not prepared to say they woukl or would not.
41124. So your rule is confined to men engaged in the retail trade, to bar-tenders,
itc. ? — It depends a great deal on the habits of the men.
41125. You had better consider the matter l)efore you send in the statement that
distillers and manufacturers of liquor are refused as risks b}' life insut mce companies.
Do you still say that all manufacturers of liquor are refused? — I will not say all.
41126. Will you say that any manufacturers of liquor are refu.sed, if they are good
lisks? — If they are good moral men, they will not be refused.
41127. So has the manufacture anything to do with the acceptance or non-accept-
ance of such applications ? — It would have great weight with the company.
669
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
41128. It" a manufacturer's life was otherwise a good risk, would the company
accept or ref jse him ? — They would accept him.
41129. Then there is really no difference in the rule in regard to them ? — No.
By Jiev. Dr. McLeod:
41130. What does your company say al)out manufacturers and distillers I — We
ask ; " Are you engaged in the sale or manufacture of intoxicating liijuor ? "
41131. The question seems to class manufacture and sale together. You have to
rej>ort on that matter ? — Yes.
41132. Are you sure bar-keepei-s are not taken at all ? — They ai'e not taken at all,
if they make a business of bar-keeping. A hotel-keeper who employs a bar-keeper would
be taken, but a bar-keeper making a regular business of it is not taken by this company.
GEORGE CAINIPBELL, of Nanaimo, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
liif Judge McDonald :
41133. What is your business or occupation ? — 1 am -foreman in the employ of the
Vancouver Coal Company.
41134. How long have you lived in Nanaimo 'Since August, 1875.
41135. How long have you lived in British Columbia ?- The same time.
41136. Did you come here from one of the other [)rovinccs ? — Yes, from Cape
Breton, Nova Scotia.
41137. What part ? — From Sydney Mines.
41138. Taking your population here, made up of miners to a certain extent and
also a number of seafarinj? people, how do you find this community compares with other
comnuniities as to being a law-abiding and ordei-ly one 1 — I think the population is as
law-abiding and orderly here as almost anywhere.
41139. And it is composed of diH'erent nationalities ? — Yes.
41140. People of different habits and customs ? — Yes.
41 141. Are you in the same mine as Mr. McGregor ?-- 1 am in one of the niines of
which he is manager.
41142. Pid you h..'ar his evidence?—! heard part of it.
41143. How do you find the license law work here? — We iiave what you might
almost call a high license in this city, for many of the licensees pay .^300 a yeai-.
41144. We understand that you have 21 licenses for the sale of liijuor ?-— Yes.
4114;). Do you consider that number is more than required by the city 1 — I consider
that number too many.
41146. Do you think it would be better if the number was reduced ? — Yes, Itliiiik
it would be better, and there would not be so much liquor sold.
41147. Are you in favour of a liquor law or of prohibition? — T am in f.ivour of
prohibition.
41148. As a matter of principle? — Yes, because it would be for the general good of
the people.
41149. Are you opjtosed to the license system? — Yes.
41 150. Do you think it should be abolished ?— Yes.
By Rer. Dr. McLeod :
41151. You work underground, I sujipose? — Yes.
4115;.*. Have you men under your contiol ? — Tn tiie absence of the nuiiiager and
the foreman of the mine, the fireman is left in charge to see to the safety of the mine.
41153. Then you are responsible for the safety of the mine? — Yes.
41154. Have you any rules in the mines as regards drinking by employees ?- The
gene "al rules of the company here are that if a man stays away for two days without
reasonable excuse, i-c loses his place.
Marcus Wolfk. •
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
my
I
41100. Do men lose much time by drinking?— A little about jwy day, one or two
days, but not a great deal of time.
41 15G. Have very many men Iwen discharged on account of being diunk 1 I suppose
tiiey try not to get drunk ? — Yes, they try to keep their places.
41157. Do you think that the rule makes your men mi»re soliei- than if there was
no such rule in force ? — It has a strong tendency that way.
41158. You hiive expressed yourself as favourable to prohibition. Have yuu
thought of the matter sivlHciently to be able to say whether pi-ohibition could be enforced ?
— I think it is quite possible to enforce such a law. I hear a large number of ])co}ile,
including those who drink, express the wish that prohibition was in force in this province.
41159. Y%u think, then, that there are drinking mtii who would prefer prohibition
to license ? — Yes, 1 have heard quite a nur.iber of them say so.
411G0. They think it would protect themselves, I suj>po.se? — They say they are not
capable of looking after themselves, and that prohibition would assist them.
411G1. Is it the duty of the community to help such men / — 1 think .so.
41162. Have you observed in your intercimrse with the employees whether the
families of thinking men are aflected by the drinking habits of the father? — In some
cases with which I am personally acquainted, the families have suffered from the drinking
habits of the parents.
411G;?. In the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law. do you think it
would be proper to rennnicrate brewers and distillers for their loss uf plant .md
machinery ? — -I think not.
41164. Why not? — If anything happened by which we would be called to shut
down the mine and suspend operations for a time, we might as well .say that tht'i'om])any
has a right to be renuuieratetl as that renuuieration should be granted to brewers and
distillers of li(]uor.
411G5. If an Act of Parliament was passed closing up the coal bu.siiu;ss, would lii.it
make iv different state of att'airs, or would ihe condition still be about tlu; sam;'. in your
opinion? — 1 tlo not see why not. I think it would hv. a great blessing if tiie nioney
invested in the liquor indu.strv was driven into other branches of trade, ai'.d the m:iiHi-
facture of articles that arc necessary to the comfort of the jieople.
41166. Do you thiidc the liusiness of the country would not siilTer if the brewcrii's
and distilleries were clo.sed up ? — I think that would increase the business jind welfare
and ])rosperity of the whole people.
By Judge McDonald :
431G7. Sujiposing an Act of Parliament was nas-^'".! iiMpiiring your mine to h.ive
certain and exiicnsive machinery put it, av.d iin .\ct was afterwards passed, declaring
that you could no long:'r mine coal, ant', all machinery and plant were left on the
company's hands, do you think it wocld be (piite right tha' you should not receive
rennmeration ? - Yt-s, if it was a business that was injm-ing the com try.
4116bi. Do yim think it would be quite right if Parliament rf uired the con'pany
to put in certain plaiiL and then afterwards ]iassed a law prohi!)itiM!; tne tuitheroperaiion
of the coal mine ; would you deem it right that the company >.iioidd be renuinerati'il for
loss of plant and ni.ichinery rendered useless? — In that case i •unsidev that it woidd be
fair if compensation were paid for ail machinery and plant handed omt to the (!o\i in-
nietit. The (Government should buy out the ])i'operty.
4116l». In a similar case in which brewers and distillers were parlies, do you think
it right that the (ioveriunent should take over the machinery and jilaiit and pay them
the value? —Not if the trade was considered injurious.
41170. Do you think it is injurious to the connniunty for auy man to diink
alcoholic licjuor in moderation?--! tii'idv injury is done in almost all cases.
41 171. Do you think it is a sin t< tlrink wine?— I think it is very injurious to the
system.
41 172. Do you think it is a sin to drink wine?— I shtaild call it a sin, a violation
of the law ; T should con.sider taking alcohol nito the system to be a sin.
41 173. Is it a .sin to drink intoxicating Imvcrages in mtKle -ation ? 1 C(tnsider it .i
sin to take into the .system anything which s injurious.
571
|i|
' l-l 'III
liiquor Traffic — British Columbia.
41174. Ts it ,1 sin to drink intoxicating beverages in moderation ? — I consider that
a sin.
411 7'"). You tliink it is injurious to any person who drinks it? — I consider it
injurious to anybody. It has Ijeen stated by medical men of authority tliat any one
wlio takes alcohol into the .system is not a healthy man.
41176. Even in moderation? — Yes.
41177. And further you think you would Ije benefiting the people as well as the
men who drink to excess if you prohibited them from obtaining drink ? — Yes, it would
be doing them good.
41178. You would cause men who drink in moderation to abstain ? — Yes.
41179. You would pass a law to prohibit the manufacture, importatidYi and sale of
intoxicating liquors for beverage purposes ? — Yes.
41180. Do you think such a law could be enforced ?— 1 think it could be enforced
as well almost as any other law is enforced. There is no law that is perfectly eiuorced.
41181. Can you inform the Counnissioners of any country in the world where there
is such a law in force to-day? — In the State of Maine they have prohibition.
41182. But they have no such law as you speak of. In that state a man can hrve
all the liquor he wants in his cellar and give it to his friends. You think it a .it, '^
drink wine and you would keep it away from the people. In Maine, however, c . ryo/i
is permitted to drink it and have it for his own u.se if he pleases. Would you ik'W
people in this country to send to ^Montreal and obtain liquor and keep it in their ct'liars
and treat their friends ? Could you name any country or state where the people have
such a law as you desire? — ^I could not name any country or staie where they do good
to that extent ; of course alcohol is r'^quired for medical purpo.ses.
41183. Prohibition is to restrict it for beverage purposes? — Yes. I am in favour of
such a law.
41184. Do you think smuggling would go on if sucli <a law were passed ? — I think
there would bo smuggling.
41185. But would not the law liave to be enforced? Have you lived in any
prohil)iti(m country ? -1 once lived in a place where liquor was not allowed to be sold,
Cow Bay.
4118G. AVe have had evidence in regard to Cow Bay and in regard to that part of
the world and Nova Scotia generally. Are you not aware that people in (Jow Bay can
obtain all the liquor they want in Halifax ? — Yes.
41187. Do you know what the conse(|uence of passing sufh a law is : do you know
what class of peoj)le get li(]uor from Halifax? — Only wealthy people.
41 188. So the law allows the wealthy people to have all they wish and keep liquor
in their cellars while tlie poor people are compelled to do without it? — The poor man is
better without it ; let the wealthy man poison himself if he wishes.
41189. So you wish to prohibit the poor man h.aving it? — Yes.
By Rev. Dr, McLeod :
41190. As to granting compensation to brewers and distillers in the event of the
enactment of a general prohibitory law : do you see any difference between the drink
trade and the coal business? — Certainly there is quite a difference.
41191. Do you think the coal tra;'.e is more beneficial to the country than the
liquor trade? — I think so.
41192. Do you tliink there is any likeliliood of i\w people of the country ever
attempting to piohibit tiie coal bHsine,ss ? — No, I do not thmk so.
41193. Then the ([uestion of granting compensation to colliery owners will scarcely
arise ? — Not likel)*.
67
dep
to
OEOIinE C.\MP»KLt,.
572
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
WILLIAM W. WALKEM, M.D., of East Wellinjrton, B.C., on being duly >\umi,
deposed as follows : —
Jiy Judge McDonald :
41194. What is your profession ? — I am a physician and surgeon.
41195. How long have you lived in British Columbia? — 17 years.
41196. How long have you lived in Nanaimo? — 10 yeai-s.
41197. How do you find the people here, are they orderly and law-abiding? —
Considering the amount of liijuor consumed, they are very much better than in any
other place I have been in, and I have been all over the world.
41198. Have you observed the operation of the license law here? — I have not so
much in the city as in the district.
41199. How does it work ? — I do not like it.
41200. What is the difficulty ?— The difficulty is this, it does not allow a poor man
to get a license. There is too much competition to give him a chiince to obtain a license.
41201. Are licenses granted in the rural districts by the Licensing Board? — Yes,
which is too small.
41202. How many are there on the Board? — Three members, which number may
be increased to five, and the Stipendiary Magistrate can sit, which would increase tht;
number to six ; but up to a certain time only three magistrates iiave been sitting on tlie
Board.
41203. For how large a district would those tiiree men act? — Kor a tlistiict about
5.3 miles long and several miles broad.
41204. Do the licenses in the district which you mention observe- tlie {jrovisiuns
of the license law and comply with the requirements ? — In what way ?
41205. Do they close tiieir houses on Sunday? — I never ascertained tliat fact.
They do in and about the place where I am residing, and they an; veiy strict in regard
to it.
41206. What is the license fee paid? — 1 am not aware, but it is tlie usual
provincial fee, I think $100 a year.
41207. Have you considered the question of prohiliition?— \'es.
41208. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you think a general |iroliibit my
lav,- could be practically enforced here ? — No.
41209. What would be the difficulties ?— In the first place, tho people are not
educated up to such a law. In the second place, to attempt to establish a prohibitory
law would lead to other evils, such as snmggling and the nicanufaoture of illicit li(|Uor.
41210. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law for the whole
Dominion, do you think it right that brewers and distillers should receive compensation
tor IoslS of plant and machinery? — Certainly, like every other vested interest.
41211. Speaking as a medical man, from your experiences aufl practice, have you
:i)und many cases to arise from alcoholism ? — I have found in a country lik(( this very
few cases to arise from alcoholism, considering the amount of licjuor consumec'.
41212. Do you mean that a great many of the peoph- consume liquor? — They drink
in moderation a good deal. They do not drink licpior as much as beer.
41213. Has the consumj)tion of beer materially increased since former days? — I
cannot say ; I think that would be a matter of statistics, and I have not gone into tlicni.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod:
41214. You have spoken about the ditHcul'y experienced by some people in ob-
taining licenses. Are we to understand that irrespon;ible people sonii'times get licenses'
— That is a matter I had not thought about. The reason I object to the license system
is this ; it causes a house that obtains a licenst! to possess a certain pecuniary value ;
that is to say that a man by the very fact that he obtains a license secures a certain value
for the property.
41215. The license attaches to the premises?-- Yes.
41216. You think it would be well to change the law in that respect? — F do. t
would also do away with the provision refpiiring a certain petition to be signeil when
573
\\
\
\
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
-I.-
11
^:1
application is made for a license, for those people who sign are as a rule not in favour of
granting the license but sign because they do not wish to offend the proprietor.
41217. Do you think it would be well to have a license system, so that a man would
be required to procure a license every year the same as at first? — Yes, subject always to
the reports which might be made by the police as to the character of the house.
41218. And, of course, if disorderly conduct prevailed, you would have the license
refu.sed and vice versa'i — Certainly. Of course, if the house was unecessary, I would have
it done away with altogether.
41219. You must also consider the district in which the license is granted, I suppose .'
— Yes; there have been 18 deaths in the province of British Columbia due to alcohol
within a short tmie comparatively.
41220. You mean drunken people ? — Yes. Two umrders were also due to tlmt
cause and there have been three cases due to drinking by Indians and other people, who
were not able to take care of themselves.
41221. You think the liquor traftic is responsible for those untimely deaths'? — Yes.
41222. Hp 1 5 vou observed whether the drink traffic has been responsible for any
percentage of ui. r ■ 'eaths annually ? — I know no more than what I have learned
from the Inspector <itentiaries. In looking over the record of the penitentiaries I
noticed that it'J out t . '0 cases were returned as having occurred from the parties
having been drunk. 1 do not place much reliance on that repoit, as my opinion is that
the officials blame liquor for almost every wrong action.
41223. Do you think that in those cases the parties were not all drunk ? — -When a
man intends to commit burglary he does not get drunk ; he wants a clear head.
41224. For business purposes, he keeps sober?— Yes, ijurglars and gamblers an^
hardly ever drinkers, at least when they are pui'suing their respective vocations.
41225. You spoke about the people not being educated up to prohibition : do you
think there is a way of educating people up to it? — Yes. The coming generation
are l)eing educated up tr it. A stranger coming here, as I did in 1882, was struck by
the fact that there were so many more young men I'ound town than in their homes, and
the moment the homes are made more pleasant they become interested and are kei)t
from hanging round the saloons.
41226. 13y those means you think the prohibition feeling will become stronger by
and by ? — It will be encouraged in that way.
41227. About granting compensation to vested interests : what is your definition of
vested interests ?— I explain it in this way : a man invests a certain amount of money
under the protection of the law, and if prohibited by the law from the enjoyment of the
results of his investment, he should be remunerated.
41228. You do not consider the law compels a man to go into the liquor business,
either manufacturing or retailing ? — Certainly not.
41229. It is a voluntary step, and there is a license connected with it ? — If a man
goes into the business and a change, which he did not expect, takes place in the law,
that compels him to make an investment that he did not know of, and ho is
interfered with as regards his investment, I think compensation should be made if that
privilege is taken away altogether.
4 1 230. Still he carried on his business only from year to year under a license, and
that only because he was specially authorized to do so by license, and he was thus a manu-
factui'er or seller? — They are two diflei'ent people.
41231. But both are licensed ? — Yes.
41232. Both are licensed from year to year ? — Yes, but the manufacturer has raucli
more money invested.
41233. Then as to the question as to the number of licenses within the city : do
you think that drunkenness would be greater if thei'e were more saloons? — I do not
think so. I think it would be the other way. I believe the larger the number of saloons
the l<^ss drinking there is. That may appear tc be a curious statement to make, but
it is founded on observation. The fewer saloons in this town the grei.ter the amount of
drinking, and from the system of treatment that prevails here the result would be that
more people become drunkards within a given time than if there were more saloons.
William W. Walkem.
614
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
For instance : say there were five saloons in this town. People who drink will drink ; I
have found that out. They will go to those places to seek tor their li(iuor. Say there
are ten in the bar-room at one time. Each man thinks it necessary on his part to drink
and afterwards return the treat. The result is that in order to go round each man must
have 10 drinks. If there were more .saloons and those saloons were scattered there would
of course be a less number of men in each salwtn ; consequently the man instead of
getting ten drinks would probably get three and then he would go home.
41234. You would not, then, limit the number of licensed places! — No; but I
would increase tlie license fee.
4123;"). As a physician, ilo you consider that total abstinence is compatible with
the best of health 1 — Not always.
41236. In what ca.ses is it not ! — Of course total abstainers avoid a gieat nuiny of
the quicksands of life by not taking any liquor, although most of the brightest men in
the world have been modei'at(! drinkers.
41237. Is moderate drinking harmless or hurtful f — It is huitful.
41238. Other things being e(iual, has a total abstainer any better expectation of
life than a habitual di inker? — Ye.s, all things being equal.
41239. In case of injury or illness has a total abstainer any better chance of reco-
vering than a habitiuil moderate drinker? — Yes, when you put it in that way, "habitual
moderate drinker."
41240. Other things Iwsing ecpial, are the children of the habitual moderate drinker
not more likely than the children of the total abstainei- to be liable to disease or some
kind of physical weakness or defect? — That, of course, would depend on the constitution
of the father.
41241. What is most likely to be the effect on offspring of {)arents being intempe-
rate ?— The first would be a desire to drink, which is suppos(>d to be hereditary.
41242. What effect would total al)stinence or enforced prohibition have on the
health of a community at large ? — I cannot help answering it in this way : 1 suppose it
would be for their benefit.
41243. As to insanity. From your examination of the statistics of the insane, have
you been able to determine to what extent insanity could be traced directly or iiuli-
rectly to drink ? — In Rockwood Asylum in Kingston, where I was assistant for a time,
I think the statistics of drunkards showed they were about three-eighths of the total
number.
41244. Have you from your study been able todeterniine whether the use of alcohol
in any percentjige of cases was a predisposing cause of insanity ? — Yes.
41245. In any considerable degree? — I have never given that matter- sufficient
thought to be able to express an opinion, nor have I given the subject .sufficient atten-
tion to be able to give an affirmative answer to it with an\' certainty.
41246. As a physician coming into close contact with the people, are y.-)u able to
state what is the effect of the drink habit on domestic hapj)iness, physical health and
the intelligence and morals of the people I — The drinking habit of the father acts in twcj
ways: either in regard to causing a tendency on the pai't of the child to drink, or to do
wrong. With respect U) happiness, of course drinking is not conducive to happiness.
In Ontario several years ago (I do not know whether the Act is in force now, or not,
but it was when I was living there) there was an Act by which njeii with flrinkiiig
habits could be restained from drinking under the law. I have seen cases in which that
Act worked ^'ery satisfactorily.
Bi/ Judge McDonatd :
41247. How do you define a habitual di-inker and a nuMJerate drinki'r? — The nio<le-
rate drinker is not a iuibitual drinker ; those are two difFerent terms. I call a
habitual drinker a man who takes five or six drinks a day and does not get drunk.
41248. You mean a man who keeps this up day by <lay? — Yes. I do not allude to
a man who simply takes a glass of beer or so at his diiuier, or even has a glass of beer
two or tliree times a day si>me daj'S.
1 ■ !
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Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
JOSEPH RANDOLPH, Jr., of Harewoixl Distiict, Nanaimo, mine overman, on
being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; —
By Judge McDonald :
41249. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — All my life. I wius (jnly
five 3'ears old when I came here.
41250. How many years have you been an overseer? — Three years I think.
41251. Do you find the people of this section law-abiding and orderly people?
— Fairly so.
41252. You have had no experience of any other country? — No.
41253. Are you favourable to prohibition or to the license system ? — I am favour-
able to prohibition.
41254. On principle ?— Yes.
41255. Are you oppo.sed to the license system on principle ? — Yes.
41256. You think such a system is wrong? — Yes.
41257. Do you think it is a sin to license the sale of liquor ? — I do.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod:
41258. What is the effect of the liquor trafBc on the men under your supervision]
— We do not have a great deal of drinking among the men.
41259. Why is that? — We do not employ men who drink.
41260. Do you think tiie fact that 3'ou do not employ men who drink, deters men
from drinking? — I do.
41261. When you refer to men who drink, what do you mean? — I refer to men
who drink liquor and get drunk.
41262. What do yim regard as excessive drinking? — I consider it excessive when a
man cannot do his usual work.
41263. Day after day?— Yes.
41264. Do you discharge them if they lose time by drinking? — Yes.
41265. You think the rule against drinking has been beneficial to the men? — I
certainly believe it has.
41266. Do you regard the system you have in force as a kind of prohibition ? — It is
a poor kind of prohibition, but I think it helps the men.
41267. You say you are opposed to the license system ? — Yes.
41268. And you pref(!r the prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — Yes.
41269. From your observation of the men in the mines and elsewhere, have yini
noticed whether their families are affected injuriously or beneficially by their drinking
habits? — That is a question j(»u could hardly decide, but, from general information I get,
I think it is injurious to the families.
41270. Have you any young men employed ? — Yes, quite a few.
41271. Have they the drink habit, that is any, number of them? — Some of them.
41272. Has the influence of the churches and the temptsrance societies had any
effect on them? — Not much.
41273. Do you think the licensed drink shops are more tlian a match for the
churches and tempeiance societies ? — Yes, I think they aie.
41274. Have you any licensed drink .shops in the vicinity of your mine? — Not
within 400 or 500 yards.
41275. Are there any licensed places on the property of the mining company?
—No.
41276. Would the company permit the establishment of licensed places in tlic
vicinity of their woi-ks ? — No, they would not.
41277. Why not? — It would tend to create too much difficulty in the mines.
Joseph Randulpu.
676
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
EMIL ARNOLD PRAEUEH, M.D., of Nanainu), on Ix^iiig duly sworn, (leposi-d
as follows : — -
By Judye McDonnhl : .
41278. Are you a Health Officer ? — Yet., and Surf;eon of the mines,
41279. How long have you resided in British Columbia! — Nine years.
41280. How long in Nanaimo? — 8ix years.
U281. Did you come here from one of the other provinces / — I came here fro'ii
England.
41282. From your observation, are the people here a sober and law-abiding people ,'
— During some years, in England, I lived in the mining district; I was one of tin- col-
liery surgeons for I^n-d Durham. I consider that the miners hert? are far more soljer than
those in the north of England.
41283. Are the miners almost all English ? — Yes, nearly all.
41284. What nationalities prevail here? — English-speaking people preponderate,
but there are also Belgians, Russians, Finns and Italians, in fact all nationalities are
pretty well represented here.
41285. Have you observed the operation of the license law since you have been
here 1 Ha\e you found it to work satisfactorily ? — There has Ijeen a markwl improve-
ment since the Sunday closing law went into force.
41286. You favour that law ? — Yes, and since it has been in force, there has been
remarkably little drunkenness on the streets.
41287. Is there a strong sei timent in the counnunity in favour of the Sunday closing
law? — -I have found the majority express themselves in favour of it, even the saloon-
keepers favour it.
4 1 288. Have you rea.son to believe that the same weight of sentiment is in favour i )f
the national prohibition of the liquor traffic ? — No.
41289. From your experience, do you believe that if a general prohibitory law weie
enacted by the Dominion Parliament it could be enforced ? — No.
41290. What would be the difficulty ?— In the first place you could never enforce
a law of prohibition in this country or any other country. If men want drink, they will
have it. I piussed through the North-west Territories during thepiohibition period, and
I have also visited some of the States in the United States, where they have blue laws
and where it is supposerl to be impossible to get liquor, but I have found you could get
as much as you wanted.
41291. In case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, a law to prohibit the
manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic li(|Uors for beverage purposes, do you
think it right that brewers and distillers should l)e compensatfid for their lo.ss of plant
and machinery ? — Most certainly.
41292. Is there any large portitin of the cases you have to deal with nttributaitlt' l<»
the use of liquor, indirectly or directly? — I cannot say, as the pet)pk' here arc most sober
and orderly, consideiing the class of people to which they Iwlong. Take the mining
class at home : it is well known that mining conununities in the old country produce mure
drunkenness than any other connnunity. Of course a mining lunnnunity prwliiccs
more offences and serious otl'ences than any other connnunity. T lia\e no statistics, but
from my knowledge of the nortli of England, I am able to say that in tlic mining coni-
nmnities the offences are more varied than in any other connnunity.
41293. Has it been found that drinking has been cariied to excess in the mining
districts? — Perhaps so in England, but I do nut think it lias been the cast; here. W -
have a number of north of England men here. 1 think a !;reat deal is due to surround-
ings. In England the men are, as a rule, badly housed. The miners on \Am\ Duiliiim's
estates were well housed compared with othei" miners, but still they had not the pretty
little liouies that the miners here have. I think that has a great deal to do with the
drinking question. Where people live huddled together, their houses back to back, and
without possessing the real comforts (»f home, the men go out.
41294. Have you found here that the influence of religious Ixwlies and temperance
societies and moral suasion have all had a good effect on the people in leg/ird to improv-
ing their habits ? — I suppose to a certain extent thev have.
577
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I
41295. Are there any suggestions you could make to the Commission in reganl tt»
the questions submitted to tliem ? I thiniv tlie license law is the only one that it is pos-
sible to work. In my opinion, a proper license system thoroughly carried out presents
\ ery few obstacles.
By Rev. Dr. Mc Lewi:
4129G. Do you regard the present license system as quite up to the mark? — No, I
(l<i not.
41297. In what respects do you think it should be changed ? — I would fashion it more
after the English Act. In the Act in force in England when I was there, a licensed
house could only keep open a certain time, accoiding to the population of the place.
For example : In London, in the neigh bourhoixl of the printing houses, there would be a
special license so that they could keep open until 2 o'clock in the morning, that being
the time when the printers would leave their work. Houses not contiguous to the print-
ing houses had to close at 1 2. In towns where there were a certain number of inha-
bitants the houses hiwl to close at 11, and in smaller towns they closed at 10 o'clock.
41298. Was that system in oj^eration in the mining districts to which you have
referred ? — Yes.
41299. I think you have said there was a great deal more drunkenness there than
here 1 — So there was, and probably so there is.
41300. How would that system be preferable to the one here ? — Because it was
based on the population, and owing to the fact that there was a larger population in that
part of the country, the houses keep open late.
41301. You would improve the system by appointing a certain hour foi- closing? —
Yes, I would make the licensed houses close at a certain hour, and I would make it
almost impossible for saloon-keepers to sell to a man under the influence of liquor. In
that connection I wish to say that this law is not carried out strictly in this town at
the present time.
41302. It is not permitted under the present law, I suppose ? — No.
41303. You have spoken about being in the North-west Territories? — -I passed
tlii'iugh them.
41304. You do not know that liquor was obtainable bj* permit or by smuggling? —
I have heard that there was a good deal of liquor bi-ought by permit.
4130o. You are speaking from hearsay rather than by personal knowledge, I
suppose ? — Yes ; my personal knowledge is limited.
41306. The miners here, you saj', are more sober than the miners in England :
have you observed that they are increasingly sober from year to year ? — Yes, I think
so.
41307. As a physician, what luus been your observation as to the effect of t' e
licjuor traffic on home life and upon the people physically, morally and otherwise 1 —
Wherever it is taken in moderation, I should say that it d(jes no harm.
41308. What do you define as moderation? — That is very hard indeed to define.
41309. We have found it a very variable term. — I should say that a man takes
liquor in moderation if he drinks a glass of beer at his dinner or lunch ; that is a moder-
atie man.
41310. As a physician, do you think taking spirituous liquor with food is harmful
to the system ? — I believe not.
41311. Then you do not agree with the scientific view that liquor is a poison? —
Liquor and alcohol are undoubtedh' poisons when taken in large quantities, and the same
statement may be made in regard to everything else.
41312. Then it is a matter of quantity ? — Yes. Salt, which every one takes with
his food, is a poison if taken in large quantities.
41313. Do you think it is desirable to still further limit the number of licensed
places in Nanaimo ? — In Nanaimo or any other town I do not think licenses should be
granted to saloons alone ; I think licenses should be granted to bona fide hotels.
41314. Given a saloon in which nothing but liquor is sold and a hotel in which
there is a bar, which is the greater danger to the community ?— I think the saloon.
Emil Arnold Praeukh.
. 578 ■
r-
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4 KM-'). Fur wliat reason'? — The sal(K)n exists simply as a drinking place. Tlic liotel
is established for the convenience of guests, and tlie man who luns a g(KKl hotel will
notallowdrinkingorgamhlingor any other evil thing to take place in his establishment.
41316. As a matter of fact, do you think the hotel bar is freciuented by the same
people who frequent the saloon, and that thei'e is gambling us well as sale of litjuor?
— It is possible.
41317. As a rule? — I could not say there is any in Nanaimo to any extent : it all
depends on what is called gambling.
41318. It is contended that the hotel bar is more dangerous than the saKH)n, that
the saloon which sells only li(|Uor is frequented by pereons who have the drink habit so
thoroughly fixed that they do not care who sees them go in, for every one knows that
they go in for nothing but to drink. On the other hand, it is claimed that thi^ hotel
bar can be easily visited, because you can call at the hotel to see a man for good fellow-
ship, and afterwards go with a numljer of young men to the bar and drink ; and it is
further claimed that the hotel bar is liable to be fretjuented by young men who have
not got the drink habit firmly fixed, and who would not go to a saloon. C(»nsidering
the matter from that standpoint, do you think the hotel bar is a greater danger than
the saloon? — Of course under those circumstances it might l>e.
41319. I think you said that you did not think prohibition «ould be enforced ? — Xo.
41320. I have had a little experience of your endeavouring toeiiforcethe prohibition
against the introduction of small-pox. Do you find it practically ditficult to enforce
that prohibition ? — No ; we have not done so.
41321. I remember on Saturday night we had either to show vaccination marks on
our arms to satisfy you, or be sent back to Victoria or be vaccinated '! — You would
have Ijeen dealt with according to the regulations. Allow me to dr<aw this comparison.
You came up a well recognized route of travel. Coming on such a route, it was utterly
impossible to avoid those regulations respecting small-pox, but in the case of liquor it
would not come in that way ; if it did, it would have to come in disguise.
41322. If the people came by both, would there be preventive ofiicers to meet them ?
— Probalil.,-.
41323. And to examine their arms? — Y'es.
41324. Do you think you would be able to enforce, fairly well, regulations in regard
to small-pox ? Probably so.
4132i5. Did j'ou receive a circular letter from the Conunission inclosing a set of
(juestions ? — Y'es, and I returned the paper.
Jiy Judge Mi'Donnfd :
41326. Supposing you had in the connnunity a large pro lurtion of the people who
were very anxious to have small-pox, do you think it would be difficult to prevent them
obtaining it?- -If they Mere very anxious to get small-pox, I would recommend them to
go to some other town where it was prevalent and where the provincial regulations were
not in force.
41327. If the same sentiment in regard to the liquor trade existed as pi'evails in
regard to the prohibition of sniall-pox, there would be very little <litficulty I sui)pose in
enforcing it? — I should think that prohibition whs on a different footing.
41328. If the whole trend of public sentiment was in favour of the prohibition of
the li(}Uor traffic as it is towards the prohibition of smallpox, W(»uld you not be in a
different position?— If the whole public opinion was in favour of prohibition there would
be no need of otficers to carry out the law, because every man would be a law unto
himself.
41329. Y'^ou have had no experience with prohibition, I believe? — No.
41330. We have had evidence that in the North-west Territories there was pro-
hibition, but that kegs of liquors came in concealed in barrels of sugar and crates of
cabbages, and that cases made to represent books and even marked Holy Bible, came
in filled with liquor ? — So I have heard.
By Jiet: Dr. McLeod :
41331. Do you find that some people come here with certificates thai are bogus ?—
I have seen some.
579
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41.S.12. What did you do witli tliein '? I destroyed them.
4l3.'i;i. Wliat flid you do witli the people'? — If they liad not been pro[)erly
vaccinated we vaccinated them.
41H.'U. Even if people decided to have small-pox, you would try to enforce the law ,'
— 1 would leave them to themselves.
41.'53r». But you Wf)uld -still try to enforce the law as an ofticiiil ? — Yes.
4l;J3fi. So your enforcement does not depend on the desire or non-desire of the
people? — If the people were very anxious to have 8mall-{)ox, I would resign my position
and not waste my time any lon<j;er.
H3;i7. Do you think the provincial regulations shoukl be attended to even if any
part of the people of Nanaimo desire small-pox? — I do not know, hut I would let them
have it.
41."J.38. Allow them to have the small-pox ? Yes, let them liave the small-pox.
413;i9. You would enforce the law or re.sign ? — Yes.
By Judge McDonald :
41340. I do not for a moment suggest a parallel between small-pox and the li(juor
trade, but it was a question following on the .same line. — Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLeoil:
41341. I think one illustrates the other. Do you remember that in Montreal
thei'e was a riot over the vaccination question ? — -No, I was not in Montreal at the time.
41.'U2. Did you read about it? — No.
41343. The militia were ordered out because the people were opposed to vaccina-
tion ? — T was not in the pi'ovince at the time.
1{ev. D. a. Mc'UAE of Nanaimo, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows : —
By Jiidge McDonald :
41344. With what church are you connected? — I am a Presljyterian minister.
4134r). How long have you resided in British Columbia? — Two years last July.
41346. Did you come iierc from one of the other provinces ?^ No, I came from
California.
41347. Have you resided all the time you have been in this province in Nanaiiiu> .'
— No, I lived in Vancouver for a few months.
41348. Taking this community as you have it and comparing it with others, have
you found it to be a law-al)iding and sober coninuniity ? — Yes.
41349. Have you observed that the provisions of the license law are carried out by
the people engaged in the trade? — It would depend on what provisions you refer to.
41350. Take tlie Sunday clause. — Y'^es ; I have had occasion to know something
about that.
41351. Well what about it ? I think on the whole, at least lately, Sunday
observance here will compare favourably with any place in the province.
41.352. You spoke of having lived in Califor.'ia : did Sunday observance prevail
there? No.
41353. It has been suggested that it would be an improvement if bar-nxinis were
reijuired to close on Sunday. Have you formed an opinion on that jjoint ? — Y'^es. I am
Chairman of the Central Temperance Committee in this city, and we take exception to
that clause in the Sunday closing Act. It says they " should " be closed. Evidently the
person who drew up that provision thought it would be a gooil idea to have the saloons
close, but the word " should " should i)e replaced by " ought " in the Act.
41354. You are going to ask the Legislatui-e to make that amendment? — Yes, that
is pioposed.
Emil AiiNOLi) Praeger.
580
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41.'ir).'5. What is the line of wtirk of th<> tcinpenmce orgaiii/ntioii of whicli vnii are
ehainnan? — \V«' hiul an inijJreHsion tiiat the Sunday olosiiij^ Act was not altuj^i'tlicr
uhserved, and so committees from each society and church in tlic city were a|>|iointcd
to meet almut once a month or every forniglit to make careful ohseivation during
Sunday, and to report to our meetings wliat was going on. It is not necessary foi' me
to go into (h'tails and tell what was reported : hut I may say tiiat tlie different persons
made i-epctrts after careful observation.
41.'jr)6. Have you many temperance organizations in the city ? Two or three.
413.J7. I suppo.se you have hardly l»een hjng enough here to he ahle to speak
comparatively of the state of things now with what existe<l formerly? — I think it is
much lietter here now than when I came first.
41358. You think changes have heen hrouglit alxiut during twf) years ?--Yes.
41.'J59. Have you found that the work of tlic churches and the temperance societies
have been good in this respect, in regard to improving the condition of the city ? Yes,
in regard to our Sabbath schiK)ls, Ac. T know there are men who two years ag(» would
<hink and who do not now.
41360. Have they voluntarily relin(|uisiie(l tiie habit?— Yes, and this !ias In'en
brought alnjut by talking to them, and in this way tiiey have voluntarily given up the
habit.
413G1. Have you considered the <[uestion of the ena, tjnent if a general proliibitory
law ?— Yes.
413G'J. As a temperance law ? — That is the ground we take — Prohibicion.
41363. You are aiming at jirohibition then?- Yes.
41364. And in the meantime you regulate the trattic so far as you can? -Yes.
4136r). What is your opinion as tt) the licensing of the drink traffic : do you think
it right or wrong ? — T think it limits tiie timle. I think at the present time it is tiie
l>est thing.
41366. But you would favour prohibition as a matter of principle 1 Yes.
41367. I suppose your ac([uaintance has hardly been sutficiently long to enable you
to .say as to the practicability of enforcing a general prohibitory law in this country ? —
T know the country very well.
41368. Do you think such a law could be enforced? I think there would be
smuggling here. The people here can get articles across the boundary, and they are far
cheaper.
41369. Suppose the people could not get liquor here, would they bring it across
irom the United States? — T do not think you could institute a comparison between the
necessities of life and licjuor. Liquor in itself is a lu.xury at best. It becomes a necessity
afterwards. As a rule, if a man is poor, he wants a .siut of clothes rather than liquor.
41370. You would endeavour to secure a fair measure of enforcement if such a law
were passed ? — Yes.
41371. Is there such a trend of public sentiment in favour of prohibition as there
is in favour of the Sunday closing Act ? — No, because a large portion of the people think
it right to take a glass, and they are of course part of the people.
41372. In ca.se of the enactment of a general pvi'iiMtory law, do you think it
would be right that brewers and distillers should be crni'^: sated for the loss of their
y)lant and machinery? —I have given considerable attention to the matter, and 1 am imt
al)le to answer it categorically. I think we cannot institute any fair comparison between
the liquor trade and any other industry. Suppose I desired to get a license to-day. f
could go to the license court and get a license for a certain limited time. I know public
.sentiment, and I am aware that there is an agitation going on against the trade, and
that there is a possibility or practicability of my losing my investment in consequence
of legislation on the subject. Lmiking at the matter in that way, I think every one
entering the trade at the present time should be prepared to lose his investment, as
such would be the case after the enactment of a genei-al prohibitory law.
41373. The law retjuires the manufacturers tf» provide certain machinery and plant,
and distillers are require<l to keep their stock for two years for rectification purjioses. In
case of the enactment of a general prohibitory law, do you think it would be fair to
leave that liquor on their hands ? — The distiller knows before he goes into the busines.s
581
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Liquor Traffic — Mritlsh Columbia.
tliiit he is liiihlc to lose his iincstinrnt at any lime. However 1 would In- in tavoiir uf
settling the niattei- aiiiicalily.
Jitj Jiev. Dt: MrLeod : -
41371. What would you call an aniicalile ari'aiij^enieiit ? — If all the 11 li(|Uc>r
denlei's of Nanaiino were Ix't'ore me, they might he brought to declare that they would
all i|uit the husine.ss. In that ease it windd pay Nanaimo to com|ienHate them.
il'M^i. You think it might he better to have prohibition under those cireumstaiieos
than not at all f - Yes.
11370. You spoke about the Sunday law not being well ';l»served at tii'st and your
Society taking some action l)id you make any charges and secure any convictions against
parties ? We did not, altlu-'igh there were persons who were repctrted and brought up.
41377. Why did you not ,iroceed ( — Simply becau.se we wanted to give the popula-
tion a chance, and it was nine iitonths or a year since the law had been ni force. The
policemen were working hai'd. We thought the proper move was to go to the (/ouncil
!ini] to the Legislature, if we knew anything, to report to them and have the matter
dealt with amicably, that the jiarties might have notice and be able to stop. We had
no desire to harbour any feeling against the trade,
4137!^. You let it be understo(Ml that your society was prepared to enforce the
provisions of the Sunday law t —Yes, that was the intention.
41371*. Do you think it had the effect of preventing violations '. — Yes.
41380. Then did you understand from that that the provisions could be enforced /
- -I think so.
41.381. Do you think it would be well to change the licen.se system and limit tlie
hours during which a house may sell '!■ -^ think it would be very nmch Iv 'v if our law
in this particular was similar to the (Jntario law.
41382. Now there are 26 hours in 168 hours in the week in whic cannot be
carried on? Yes, I think it is very strange that per.sons are allowed to .^ell up to one
o'clock on Sunday UKjrning ; it strikes me as being very peculiar.
4138.3. Can you tell why they do that ?— I suppf)se they want to get as neai" Sunday
as possible, and no doubt they thought if they kej)t open until that hour it would give a
fair show to all parties.
41384. How long hnve you been a minister? — I have been practically engaged in
the work, mure or less, for lOyears.
41385. During that time, of course, you have come into contact with family life in
the communities in which you have been engaged? — Ye.s.
41386. You have had a good deal to do with parents, 1 supjMise? — Y''es.
41387. Can you tell from your observation and expt^rience as a minister what is
the effect of the drink trade and habit on the crimes committt'd, neglect of childi-en,
poverty, immorality, etc? — I have taken considerable interest in looking into that iiues-
tion. The decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States, in which you find the
history of the world, leave no doubt as to what effect it has.
41388. From your observation as a minister, have you found tliat tliv' tiecisions of
the Supreme Court have been behind the law against the liquor trade ? -Y'^es, emphati-
cally so. I will give an illustration in regard to a case of a man in this town. One day
I was down town, and a man was drunk. His wife told me that he had been drunk
since the 1st of the month, and since that time he had spent several hundred dollars. I
took an intere.st in the man, although he did not belong in my district. I visited him
when he sobered up. He stated that he was willing to be sober, but that he had not the
power to resist. The only thing he said that could be done would Ije to put him on an
island, he said, where he could not get liquor. 1 applied to the courts of Justice and
they assinted me. We put the man under the Act relating to drunkards, and succeeded
in shutting him up. He went to work again. The company gave him work. I saw
him last week, and he was drunk again after pay day.
41389. Would it have l)een an advantage to that man if there had been nodrinking
places in the town ? — Certainly. It is very improper that licensed dealers after they
have been spoken to and warned against .selling to certain people should still keep on
selling ; some do this and some will not do so.
Rkv. D. a. McRae.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
H.''*JO. You spoke alKiut takiiiK iMlvaiitii)^*' of tlif Idiiiikaid's Act. Wliiii is tlint ? —
Tlio Act rwuls somi'thin^t likf this : if it tun 1k> shown tliut a iium p'ts ch'utik m- spt-nils
his money In-yond wiuit he is h1)U' to do on li(|Uors, he n\n be phu-od under th(f
l»iunkiird'H Act. Any one who gives such a man litpior can he fined according' to Paw.
H-'tiM. Fs notice ^iven to the licensed dealers? Yes.
HM!»2. And they are suhjected to penalties if they sell to those men .' Yes, that is
a very ;;;(Mid clause in the Act, and it is the only place where T have .seen a drunkard
defined.
4IM'.);{. Have you had many cases of that kind?- -T have heard of manv, hut there
was no case hut this one that came directly to my o\)servation.
41.'594. Do you know whether in such cases li(|Uor has i)een obtained by sending
otheis to f{et it and thus the man has obtained it? — This man did not- he (il)tained it.
at times anil at times he did not.
Bi/ Jndye McDonald ;
4131)."). What is the jud^nnent of the Supreme Court of the United States to which
you hava referred? — T think it was the case of California r. Christeson. 1S<.»0. Tho
courts stated that they traced more crimes to liijuor than to any other singlt- cause.
If
JOHN PAAVSON, of Nanaimo. n heini;' duly sworn, deposed as follows: —
Ri/ Judge Jfc Donald ;
41.'?96. What is youi' business «»r (tcoupation?— T am out <if business : T am a jLjentle-
man
41. '507. How long have you resided in l>ritish Culumbia .' - .'it years.
41.'{98. How long in Xanaimo ? — '2',i or 1' 1 years.
41.'J99. Did you come here from one of the other pi'ovinces? — No, from California
last. I liave been all over the world, including Australia.
41400. Have you been in an}' jimhibition co\Mitry? No, not except in countries
where we could not get any liijuor. I have i)een here in tlit* mountain as u pioneer, for
example.
41401. Pei'haps you can give the Commission information in regard to a country
where there is said to be prohibition, the Fiji Islands. Have you been there? — T have
been in the Sandwich Islands, where there is high license in force. I have not lieen in
the Fiji Islands.
41402. In what part of British Columbia lia\t> you resided, except in Nanaimo?- I
have travelled all over the province.
41403. All the parts in which you have travelled, have been under a license law, I
suppo.se? — Y'es ; in some places far reumved from settlement thei-e were no laws.
41404. Have you had any experience of Alaska? My experience when f came here
led me to believe that there was a gfxxl deal of smuggling going on with Alaska. My
experience wa.s, of course, second hand. I know however that large cpiantities of iicjuor
were taken from here to Alaska, where there is a prohibitory law in force. T was very
much interested in the description gi\cn of the manufactui'e of li(juor in Alaska by the
Indians. The natives prepare what is called a worm with kelp, •_'■_' feet in length. They
take a coal oil can, and with the assistance of molasses make hoochino.
4140.5. Is it a raw spirit? — -Y'es, it is manufactured from molasses by the Indians.
At least they did so in the eaily days. I do not know whether they do so now, because
they can import lifjuor without going to the expense of manufacturing it.
41406. You liave had ex'ierience of the license law here? — Yes. "
41407. How have ycai found it work, satisfactorily?— Y'es, except in some years.
41408. Are there any .imendments you can suggest in regard to it? — The way the
law is now the power is left in the hands of certain parties, wlio are appointed a Boai'd
of Conmiissioners. Formerly it was in the hands of the police of the province. I do not
583
M
Liquor Trattic — Hritish Ooliimuia.
tliink the ]>re,seiit iirraii<;inent is -^ii improveiueiit on tlie t'i)riuer one. T *l(i not believe
in givinj:; licenses i.'ulisiMiininateiy, and at tlie present time there ai-e more licenses issued
tliaii are advaiita^'i'oiis to the city.
11409. We have been told that there .ue 1\ licensed places here? — Yes. and that
numlnM' is nuite eni)iij»h.
41410. 1>() the licensees comply with the reijuirements of the law as regards closing
on Sunday, for instance? — Kor some years T was a licensee, and durin<;; that time I nnist
say that 1 never allowed j;ambling in my house. At that time the authorities did not
enforce the Sunday closing law.
I H 1 1 . Was there such a law in existence 1 — Not at that time. I carinot .say how it
is enforced now. 1 believe there are conscientious men in the trade who, like myself,
would carry out the law whatevei- it was. In the early days the saUwii was like the
cii'l). There were at that time none of the home comforts that are found in older set-
lied conuiuinities, and in fact there were very few of the home comforts that exist at the
present time. At that tnne men li»ved in cabins and lived roughly. Many of them
li\ed with lnJiii!i women, and the con.sequence was that in the saloon > ou would hear
the latest gossip, for news came but once a week, and there were no telegraphs. So the
s.iloon was a rendezvous for the men to a greater extent than it is now T do not know
tiiat there was moi'e dissip.ition then tluui now in tlu> sahxtn, but there was a tlifferent
class of people in them at that time. You will find in all new countries where there is a
llnating jjopulation, that the men must congregate .somewhere, and they meet in the saloon.
The saloons and the hotels have really lieen the clubs in all the.se new countries. At
the ]iresent time the population in the co' niry is more steady, and they are beginning to
feel the influences of domestic life.
41412. We are told that the people are now having comfortable homes of their own ?
--Yes, but th»j had not got them in those old days.
4141."). Mave you considered the (juestion of the desirability of having a general |)ro-
hibitory law pas.sefl for the whole IVmiinion ? — T do not <piitc unilerstand the question of
prohibition.
41414. The prohibition asked for is complete prohibition of the li(iuoi' tralKc foi'
almost all purposes ? I object to that, for I Inue taken li(|Uor for 40 years and I do not
think it has done me any harm. 1 have always taken beer. lam oppo.sed to such a
law, on principle. T think beer does me good, and that I have a right to obtain it.
4141."). From yi.'w knowledge of British Columbia, would it be practicable to enforce
such a law .' — There would be ditliculty in d(ting so. The Indians would Miake hoochino.
'J'he people would get the vilest liipior, as is the case in all prohibition countries. At pre-
.sent we ha\e the best kinds of li<pior, imported by reliable I'ii':; like the Hudson Bay
Company, and people do not drink them as they did forme. ly. The jieople n> longer
drink Hudson 'Jay luni, but liquor of which they might di'ink a large quantity ■before
becouii'<tr inttixicated.
414 1 6. In the event of the passage of a general prohibitory law, do you think it
would be right and just that brewers and distillers should be conqiensated for loss of
jilant and machinery ? Like any other man who goes into business and is protected by
law, 1 think if the law comes and sweeps away a man's busines he has a I'ight to look ti.
the ccaiutry for compensation. I go furthei', and say that not only should brewers and dis-
tillers lie compensated, but farmers who have been in the habit of i-aising barley and who
would have their crop of bai'lej- thrown on their hands proliably aiul no longer lia\e
a market for it, should receive compensati )n to a cei'tain extent.
Jii/ Rev. Dr. Mcl.eud :
41417. Would the farmers not be able to raiseother kinds of grain .' Not at the
time and pi'obably not such a remuneraiixe crop.
4141«S. How long would it take a farmer to turn his land i!<to other crops for
some other market ? It would take .some veai's.
41419. You would compensate the farmer? Ye.s, to some extent.
41420. Would you carry the com|wnsation still further, and compensate persons who
had suflered loss by the li(pior tiade ? -If the law is going to that extent, I should say
compensate all the parties.
Juiiv P.VW.SON. . .
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41421. For instiince, if they mo persons who claim that the trvtHc lias ruined tln-ii-
homes and caused loss of property, and caused uidiappiness, wonk' it t)e rijjht to com-
pensate those parties ? Yes, if they can make proof of it. If they lan prove that thev
liave sutFered loss, let them be compensate<l.
4142'J. For instance, in the event of the enactment of a general prohibitoi'v law,
well enforced, woukl you compensate the men who could not jjet d'unk ? I should
want coinpen.sation pretty hadly to bring forward such a claim, I would prefer to go to
.some other country wln>re tiie laws wei'e more liberal.
4142.'i. Who would provide coisipensation .' 1 do not know, but I suppose it would
be necessary to impose a tax on tea, and enough should be made out of tl.'it.
41424. That is, compensation would be paid by the people? — Yes.
4142"). That is to say, that the distillei-s and brewers, and licensed vendors and
farmers ha\ing, dui'ing a periwl of years, done a profitable business und laid up moiiev,
as no doubt you have done, shouhl be comjtensated, and the people who have l>een their
jiatrons and helped them to attain this state of wealth, should b" taxed to give them
some more money. Is that it? 1 do not tiiink that the sal(M)n-Keepei's or the brewers
and manufacturers, or the farmers, dri'.gged these men in and made them buy liip.oi'.
4142t). Did the authorities give you a special right to .sell ? -Yes.
41427. When you had a license you iiad a special right given to sell / Yes
41428. The law says you may have a license for a certain period, one year, for which
you pay a certain ainount, and li.ere are also conditions attached to it. At the end of
that period you have no longei- any right to c0"!»inue without paying over again and
getting a license .' C/crtainly.
4142'J Then you take the risK as to the renewal of Vv.ur licei.se, except in Hritish
Columbiii, where, we understand, some of the houses are licensed right along '. If you
<lo not conduct your house in a proper mi.nner, you lose your license.
414;?0. So far as we have been able to ascertain, Hritish Columbia is the only |iro-
vinc. where licenses are held in perpetuity, ;ind in all other parts of the country licen-
sees are obliged to renew licenses from year to "ear, and are subject«'d to refusal .' They
are held hen- subject to good behaviour.
414.'?!. N\ ere you a licensee before the Sunday law came into force '/ Yes.
414.'{2. l)id the licensees sell on Sunday as well as on other days! The saloons
were closed between the hours of divine v.iMship.
414."{.'(. You said that you yourself would object to a general prohibitory law. Do
you know of some peojile to whom pi'ohibition would be a good thing .' Yes, anil I con-
sidei' that they should be prohibited. 1 think drunkenness is a disease. When a man
is diseased 1 consider that he .should be isohited.
414.'U. In what way .' -There have been great changes within recent \ears in the
drinking habits, but I can remendier 40 years ago, when f was a boy. going down to
the cellar' to g(?t beer for breakfast.
414'?."). Then you think drunkenness should be |>rohibite<l f Y'^es.
414-'it). Do you think it propel- to prohibit liipior lest men should become ilrinik-
ards? No.
4I4."i7. You would let them l;o on di'inking un!, they became drunkards .' I ha\e
gone on drinking and I have never became a d> iikard. I think it is folly to as>ert
that becau.se a man goes on drinking and (hink- 'i'- neces.sarily becomes a ilrunkard.
41438. You say that when a man becomes ; drunkard he should be isolated f -I
do. l)runkenn(>ss is like any other disease.
41439. At somt? time that man was not a dri'nkard .' It was born in him.
41440. Is that the result of your observation ,' i believe drunkemiess is a disease.
41441. lidierited 'I — Sometimes, not always.
41442. In somecasesit is not iidierited. The (|uestion i ask is this : While you be-
lieve it is right to prohibit the diunkard, would it not be i ight to prohibit the man who
is becoming a drunkard f How would vou draw the line.' l-'or instance, 1 have (!ood
Templars coming to me am
IS a matter of deception, ask me togi\<' them one or two drinks.
4l44.'{. Freipiently? Y'es. I have served out drink to them. They said, "I will
take another. I will change the <;lass." I did n"t change it, but it was only one drink.
It is a system of hyi)ocrisy.
m
ii
B L
Liquoi' Traffic — British Columbia.
41444. You did not liave particular respect for those men? — No, I had contempt
for them.
4144"). Were those men numerous? — There were quite a number, men who occupied
good positions in the city.
41446. How long were you in business? — T was 10 years here, and in Victoria.
41447. During that time how many men would there be coming under that des-
cription ? — T should not like to tell you how many.
41448. Were there about 50? — Yes, al)out that number.
41449. Were some of them what are callefl repeaters t — Yes, a good many of them.
One was a gentleman who occupied a very good position in Victoria and a man who has
taken a very prominent part in temperance work.
41450. You do not believe he had any motive of deception? — I do not believe u
liypocrite.
41451. You l)elieve the Young Men's Christian Association and the Temperance
societies have a good effect ? — 1 do believe so. In early days the young men had not the
chances they ha\'e now. This town used to be very rough, and we tried to get up (1
belonged to that disreputable cla.ss known as saUion-keepers at that time) a suitable place,
and in fact it was through my exerticjiis that a comfortable home was provided for the
young men. The trouble at that time was the lack of family society.
41452. Could you get that at the lmrr(x)m? — No.
4145,'?. Why did they not run t<j the bar room? — Perhaps you did not want your
wife to see tlie little games that you would carry on there.
41454. You think the Young Ttlen's Christian Association lias had a benign
inriuence? — Any kind of amusement has.
Jiy Judge JIcDonafd :
41455. Take the people you know who use intoxicating liquors as a beverage ; is
the proportit>n of those who use them to excess large or small ? — Very small indeed.
41456. I think I understood you to say that men who use liquor to excess should
be taken away from the liquoi? — Certainly. I have some statistics herein regard to
the United States. I was l(H)king over some papers the other day, and I found that
out of 6,6.'$7 homicidal cases that were investigated by the lUireau of Statistics there was
a lai'ger percentage of people who were total abstainers than drunkards. Those are
the statistics.
Mi
COLIN C. MACKENZIE, M.P.P., of Nanaimo, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows : —
By Judge McDonald :
41457. What is your business or occupation? — lama real estate and insurance
agent.
4145S. How long have you resided in British Columbia? — About, .'i4 years.
4145'J. How long have you liveil in Nanaimo? — About 8 years.
41460. In what other parts of the j>rovince have you resided ? -In Victoria.
41461. Did you come here from one of the other provinces ? I came here from
Winnipeg. T went from Winnipeg to England foi- 5 years, and I afterwards tami-
out here.
4146'J. Have you ever lixed in any prohibition country? — When I was in Winnipeg
we could nevei- get liquor of any kind.
4146.'$. Was that during the old Hudson i^ay days? — Yes.
41464. Was Hudson |>ay ruin used in those days? — Yes, rum and brandy.
41465. To what extent was there prohibition ? None was to be had.
JoH.N Pawsox.
68:i
your
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41466. Had they no Hudson Bay liquors? — The company kept a small t|uantity in
stock and ga\'e it out at Christmas time.
41467. Did the factors get it? -Yes.
41468. Did they use it in their families? — They had it imported from Kngland.
41469. Among what classes did prohibition exist ? — The people generally could not
get it.
41470. Then there was no direct prohibition. Wiien the stock ran out, did they
have to wait f(»r another supply ?- -Yes.
41471. Which took a long time, I suppose? — Yes.
41472. Did it come in vessels from England to York Factory and thcTu-c to
Winnipeg '! — Yes.
4147.S. Does tliat vessel still run? — I believe it does.
41474. In this province I believe you have always iiad a license law in force ? — Yes.
4147'). Are you in favoi-..- of a license law? Yes.
41476. Or do. you favour proiiibition ? — I favour proliibition, but I do not think it
is practicable to enforce it.
41477. Why not ? — Tiie people in this country come from the old countries, iind
they were brought u]> to consider liquor part of their daily fotxl, and it is very hard for
tiiem to be ))rohibited from getting their liquor. But there are a great many ))eople
coming in now who favour temperance.
41478. Do you find there is a growing sentiment in favour of using less liquor? —
Yes.
41471). In that respect the people are a law to themselves? — Yes.
41480. They abstain bj" their own voluntary act? — Yes.
41481. Take the case of men who are constantly tn'uught before the police court
and convicted of drunkenness and sent to jail for short terms. l)oestliat system do the
men any good, in your opinion ? — No.
4148l!. Do you think it would be better to place them in inebriate asylums with a
view to their reformation ? Yes.
41483. In ca.se of the enariuKMit of a genei'al prohibitory law, do you think it right
that brewers and di.stillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery ?--
Yes, I think so. T think it is .something hi- s|a\ery in the United tStates. Tt would
have been cheaper for the country to ha\r liouglil up all the slaves I'ather than to
have freed them as they did.
41484. Can you make any suggestions to the Cunnnwsion in regard to annMiiling
the license law that is in force at the present time.' The bar-rooms, in my oiiiuinn,
should be shut up here on Sunday.
4148.1. The sale of liquor is pi-ohibited, but you think it woul I be belter to cluse
the bar-rooms altogether? — Yes. 1 think tlie light should be put out in the roonl^. and
in fact no light allowed. As it is now, you always see a light in the tiar-room.
Jii/ Rev, Dr. McLeod :
41486. You are a representative, I believe? — Yes.
41487. You represent this <listrict in the Provincial Legislature?— Not t Ik- city but
the district.
41488. Do you know whether the feeling in favour of amending the lit'cnse law is
general among the people you re))resent ?-i do not know. There were a great many
members in the House ojiposed to the Sunday law.
41481). Weve they opjjosed to that much prohibition ? — Yes, it was cariied by a
mighty close shave.
41490. Do you recollect the nuijority ? -It was a ban' ma.jtirity.
41491. I suppose you wouhl say that the passing of a license law was an indication
of the feeling about the restriction of the tnule? — Yes ; but, as I told you, the people
art( mostly Hngli.sh and have English notions.
4149l'. And art* the nunnbers of the Legislature also Knglish, and have they also
PJnglish notions about drink? Whatever we have carried in the House has bei-n in
direct opposition to t\w Government, with the exception of Mr. liobson.
587
I ;
1 •
I
Liquor Traffic — Britisli Columbia.
41493. I think the Mayor of Victoria told us tliat the Premier helped him in the
matter of the license law 1 — Yes, the late Piemier.
41494. Have you heard that there is a growinj; tendency in the province in favour
of prohibition ?— The tendency is that way, but T do not know whether there would be
a majority in favour of prohibition if it were put to a vote.
41495. You think the license law in Nanaimo is fairly well observed? Yes, I
think pretty well observed.
41496. Do you think there is illicit sale? — Yes.
41497. We understand that the licenses here are for ever, unless there is some
flagrant disorder observed ? — That has only lately come into force, with this last session.
The Commission adjourned, to meet in New Westminster.
Colin C. Mackenzik
588
If
ti the
iVdur
Id be
es, I
some
sion.
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
NEW WESTMINSTER, November L'L'iul, 1892.
The Royal Commission on the Licjuor Ti'attic met here this day.
Prenent :
Judge McDonald. Rev. Dr. McLeod.
^1
WILLIAM B. TOWNSHEND, of New Westminster, on being duly sworn, depo-
sed as follows : —
By Judge McDonald:
4 1 498. I belie\e you are Mayor of W^estminster ? — Yes.
41499. What is your bufiiness or occupation 1 — I am out of business.
41500. How long have resided in British Columbia? — 35 years next June.
41501. Have you resided all that time in New Westminster? — No.
41502. In what other places have you lived?— The Hrst part of the time 1 was in
Victoria. I resided there off and on for 17 years, taking out visits to the east in sunmier.
41 503. Were you in the country at the time of tlie gold fever? — 1 was there
Ijefore that time, for the Hudson Bay Company.
41504. I suppose the country was very spareely settled?- — Thei'e was nothing but
the Hudson Bay fort in Victoria, and camps alongside of it ; there were no dwelling-
houses.
41505. And Nanaimo was in the same condition? — Yes, there was just a fort
there.
41506. And what was the condition of New Westminster in those early days? —
When I first came here then was a line of cabins along the edge of the river.
41507. What is the prisent population of the town? — I tlrink our civic census
gives us over 7,000 : the Dominion census makes our population somewhat less.
41508. Of what class of people is your population cliietly made up ; I mean in
regard to their business and pursuits? — The chief industi-ies of the place are the camie-
I'ies and mine.s. Then of course there are the business men, fus everywhere else, and
woikingmen.
41509. Are the men employed here men from other countries than Canada? —
Yes, I think nearly every country is represented here.
41510. You mean different fiuroj)ean countries? — Yes.
4151 1. Are any Chinese employed in the canning factories? — Yes.
41512. How large is the Chinese population here? — At times of the yeai- tiieiv are
not so many. We have, however, a large influx of Chinese when the caimeries art; at
work. They comt; and stay for the sunnner.
41513. How large would the ordinary Chinese population be? — In round numbers
I think we have aljout 1,000 here.
41514. Have you at certain periods of the year a seafaring population ?- Yes,
tishermen who are old sailors.
41515. They come at intervals l)etween their voyages, J suppose? — They come hei;'
during the fishing season. Nearly all of the white fishermen here have been sailors. A
good many of them are Italians and Greeks, who come here for the flshing.
41516. Have you to any e.Ktent an Indian population in the neighlH)urliood? — Yes.
41517. Taking your city and its population, do you find it orderly and law-abiding ?
— Very nmch so.
41518. Do you consider it will compare favourably with other connnunities ? — With
any in the world, and I have been all over the world nearly.
589 " '
ill
\
Liquor Traflfic — British Columl)ia.
li-
I understand you are Chairman of the Board of Licensing Coinniissioneis ?
houses have j'ou here? — There are 1") liotels, two
41519. How large a police force have you here? — Six constables and a Cliief and a
lock up keeper.
41.')20. You have also, we understand, a provincial penitentiary here? —Yes.
41521. You have, of course, the same church organiaitions to l)e found in any citv
of this size ? — Yes.
41522. And temperance societies carry on work liere? — Yes.
41523. I understand j'ou are Chairman of the Board of Licensing Comniissioneis
—Yes.
41524. How many licensed
saloons and one wholesale dealer.
41525. How long have you occupied the position of Mayor? — This is my second
term.
41526. Have you occupied the position of Ciiairnian of the Licensing Board for the
same length of time 1 — Yes.
41527. Are the saloons or places to which you have referred merely for the salt-
of liquor for beverage purposes '/ — Pure and simple.
41 528. They are not required to provide accounnodation for travellers in any Avay ?
Nut the saloons ; they are for the sale of liquor t)nly.
41529. Judging from your experience as Chairman of the Licensing Hoard, ha vf
you found the license law to be a satisfactoiy one? — I consider it one that has worked
very satisfactorily here.
41530. Are there any suggestions that you from yttur experience could suggest? - I
think not. With tiie late amendments, I think, taking our license by-law, of which I
hope to give j'OU a copy, you will find tliat the public interests are well guarded and
piotected.
41531. We were told in Victoria that a recent amendment provided that in oasc
of any hotel having 30 <ir more bed-rooms it was e.xempted from complying with some
of the requirements of the license law? — ^Yes.
41532. Have you any hotels here coming under that law ? No, we have not ; tlic
hotels are working under the city by-law.
41533. It was suggested to us at Nanaimo that it would Ije an advantage if the
Sunday closing Act were amended so as to require bar-rooms to be closed, as well as
prohibiting sale on Sunday ? — We have that.
41534. Ts that carried out by municipal regulation? — Yes.
41535. What is the amount of the license fee charged here?- -$100 every .six
months.
41530. We have also heard in Victoria and Nanaimo that there is a class of
licenses that wei-e granted before the license law passed, the new Act, which virtualK
allowed a party licensed, if he kept a respectable house, to obtain a renewal of his license
by simi)ly paying the fee everj' six montlis. How is the matter here? — It hardly arises
here in that way.
41537. We found in Victoria and Nanaimo that such was the case. It appeared
from the evidence that there were practically vested rights of parties who held licenses
years ago, and so long as they conducted tliemsehes propei-ly and were not brought
before the court for infractions (»f the law, and came every six months and paid their
license fee, the Board had no right to interfere with them ' —It is so to a certain extent.
41538. Have you many such licenses here ? — No, I think we have n<me who
could really claim that right, otherwise than by clause 32 in our license law. The way
we work here is this : so long as hotels and saloons keep orderly and respectable houses,
all the parties have to do is regularly to come forward and pay their fee, and the licensi'
is renewed without further trouble. But at the same time there is also a provisitm that
the houses must l)e inspected by the Chief of Police, who is the License Inspector, and
he makes a report.
41539. Please read the clause to which you referred a moment ago? — This covers
the point you raised. Clau.se 22 reads as follows : —
" Wiieiiever in conseijueiice of the death of tlie person hoUHiig any license under the by-liiw, Oi in
. case of the lease having expired by the fluxion of time or by operation of the law ho has l)een deprived
William B. Townshend.
690
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
■s?
of the licetiHed premises, the legal representative of sucli person or the landlord or other |K'rson inter-
ested in the premises or assignee at law may on applying to the Licensing lioard notwitiistanding the
non-protection of the license obtain a transfer of snch license on such premises us may to the
Hoard seem just : and the application of sucli transfer shall Ik; acconifmnied oy a fee of .'jl'i. .">(), which
shall lie made as provided by tlie jireceding clause, provided, nevertheless, that no such transfei-
shall he granted unless a majority of the llftard is of oninion that the person to whom it is projmsed
to make such transfer is a proper pers(m to hold such license."
I think that covei's the [wint you have raised.
41540. You have .said tliat you believe the license law works very well in its pre-
sent shape. How do you find its provisions observed l)y licensees ! Do they keep their
liouses closed on Sunday, and do they live up to the law > — We believe that the law
works very satisfactorily. Our Chief of Police will be able to reply to any (|uestion fleai-
ing with that point.
41541. So far as your observation has extended, you believe the law is observed
very wellf — Very well indeed.
41542. Have you reason to believe that there is any unlicense<l sale j^oinj^on in the
community I -I do not think so.
4154;5. Has any tjuestit)n ever l)een raised as t<i whetlier the persons in the trade
sell liquor of pottr quality ; are thej' charged with adulterating their liquor ? -We heard
.some years iifin of cases of sellinjf bful li(]Uor, but T do not hear of such ca.ses now. 1 th.ink
<tur dealers are doinj; a legitimate business.
41544. Have you any complaints niiule of sale to Indians '. — Occasionally.
41545. When such complaint is made, is it a charge against a licensed person fur
having .sold ? — Decidedly.
41546. You mean pe<^ple who have licenses] — Certainly.
41547. The licen.sed dealers? -Ye.s.
41548. Has any one been convicted of selling to Indians? None l.itely, but then-
have been.
41549. 1 n cases of .sale to Indians at the present time, who makes tiie sales, what
class of people I -It is done by long-shore toughs.
41550. Has sale of liquor to Indians i)een well looked after by the aut Ik irities ? Yes.
41551. Have you considered at all the question of the enactment of a general pro-
hibitory law? Take, first, prohibition as a matter of principle? To a cei'tain extent
it has been brought before me when sitting on the License Boai'd. I ant n<it a jinthibi-
tionist myself.
41552. You are not in favour of prohilntion as a matter nf pi'iiiciph' ? No.
41553. Frnm ynui' experience and knowledge of Bi'itish Cnlunil)ia, <io you think if
such a law were passed it would be possible tu enforce it ? 1 know it could not bi-
enforced in British Columbia.
41554. What dirticulties would yiiu expect ! — Men who want whisky will ubtain
it any way.
41555. In case of a law being passed prohibiting the manufacture, iniiiortation and
sale of intoxicating li(|uors for beverage j)urposes, do you thnik it would be right that
brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery ( 1 would.
41556. There is one (juestion that has conu^ up in regard to a police matter. an<l
perhaps you i»'.iy be able to answer ihe (juestion from your experi(>nce. Have you anv
people ill this community who are bmught before the police court for drunkenness, men
who are habitual drunkard.s :>nd who .re convicted and sent tn jail for short terms and
are released and repeat tlie saine "' nee? No.
41557. You are not troubjou with such persons here ? No.
Jiy R^v. Dr. McLeod :
11558. In regard to the matter of licenses . do all the present licensees coiniily with
the conditions in regard to the matter of making application I I)o they obtain the names
of two-thirds of the lot owners and married women within a certain range; or hnve
licenses l)een renewed to them because they held licenses ? -They have complied with
all the eoiulitions.
41559. You refer to the present licensees? — Yes. They cannot obtain licenses
without having done so.
591
\ 1
IB*?
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
41"(>0. I)o thost! wlio liave carried tlieir licenses for iiiiiny years comply with tin-
conditions of the new license system ? — There is no necessity.
H561. Will you reiwl the clause applying to that matter ? Clause .ij covers it.
41562. How many of tiie present licensees, of whom you say there are li', are not
riMjuired to comply with the present law? — I am not prepared to say, hut I think ahoul
half of them.
41563. I ask that (juestion, because we found in Nanaimo there were only 3 or I
who had to comj)ly with the new regulations, the Imlk of the licensees havinj; V)een gran
t«'d licenses under the previous arrangement ? — I am not prepared to answer that(|uestioii
just now.
41564. You have statefl approximately the number? — I should .say fully half of our
license holders.
41565. Is there any way by which your old-time licensees may l)e deprived of their
licenses : has your Board any discretion in the matter whatever? Not at all that 1 sec.
41566. So they hold their licenses in perpetuity? — So long as they keep orderly
houses.
41567. So they can retain their licenses s(» long as they are not guilty of some fla-
grant offence ? — Yes.
41568. Is there any case of a license having been revoked? — Not since 188!>,
when our by-law was passed. There is a clause stating that a license once forfeite«l can
never i)e renewed. At the time the by-law was passes] there were eight who lost their
licenses.
41569. They were guilty of some infraction ? — They kept disorderly houses.
41570. Have there been any hotel licenses revoked ? — Not within my knowledge.
41571. Take the case of sale to Indians : were the licensees deprived of their licen-
ses ? — There Iw.ve been very few and never a repetition ; a man once caught never repeats
it. T do not remember any.
41572. Have you any reas<»n to believe that licensees sell during prohibited hours /
— I have not.
41573. I think you have said tiiat there is no sale other than by licensees? — T fed
sure of that.
41574. Do j'ou feel sure that there is no sale between 11 Saturday night and I
o'clock on Monday morning ? — I think the by-law is well carried out.
41575. Do you think in the hotels there is no sale on Sunday ? — Hotels are alloweti
to supply their guests.
41576. At the bar or in their rooms? — In their rooms.
41577. Not in the bar-room? — The bar-rooms are locked up. So far as I know
myself, all the bars have screens.
41578. We found it a complaint in Victoria and Nanaimo, that although there wns
prohibition of sale on Sunday, the bar-rooms were open and people sat in them ami
smoked, and the people thought the law should be amended in that respect. But it
seems from your statement that they are closetl here ? — I do not go round myself, but 1
know that in the "Colonial '' the bar-room is locked up entirely.
41579. Is that closing of the bar-room in compliance with the license law or with
the municipal ordinance? — It is under our city by-law. W^e have a special charter for
ourselves. We are working under a new charter obtained four years ago, and it is a
special charter.
41580. Then you have some privileges that other cities do not enjoy? — Y'^es.
41581. In what tloes the present license law differ from the one preceding it ?
One of the f>rincii)al points of difference is that there is more care exercised in grantiiii,'
licenses. Tnere are precautions taken to carry out the law more strictly than was tiie
ca-se under the old law, and its provisions are well curried out.
41582. Under the old system did you prohibit sale? — No.
41583. Do you think these different restrictions are Ijeneficial? — I do.
41584. Has the Sunday closing regulation had a beneficial effect on the city? —
Decidedly so.
41585. Are there le.ss drunkanis noticeable?— Yes.
AViLt.IAM B. TowNsirKM).
592
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41 "il^G. TIkmv is less disdi'dt'i' tliiin tlii'i't- wiis t'tiniiei'ly ! -\i's. and ciiii'Cliict's n'|Kii't
will bpiif nil' out ill tliiit stiitcmerit.
U.")S7. |)(i you think it would he wt-U to limit still further the iiuiuher of licenses
;,'r;inted in New Westniinstei' .' I think we Inive enoUf;h for ii town of this si/.e.
■Ui"i88, rf there were too niiiny they would injure thenisehcs and some would lie
forced out, I supjiose, for competition would he too keen .' Yes.
ll">H!t. Have you observed, durini; your lonjj; stay in Hritish ('ulumhia, whelhei-
there has been any jfrowini; chaniie in the drinkinji habits of the people ,'—Y«^s.
llo'JU. Are there fewer people drinkinu', or are there nuu'e? There must be more,
because there are more peojile here and |ii-etty nearly all take a drink once in a while.
ll'iDl. Hearinji the increased )>o])ulation in mind, do you think the ratio of drink-
ing is ;;reatei' now than formerly .' It is less, decidedly.
n")y2. To what do you attriiiute that chaii<;e .' — There are more home.s now and
society f^enorally is no doubt better than it was in IStii'. when the maJ4irity of tlu' [lopu-
lation were miners, and very few women were here, and there wei'e very few homes
compai'ed with the nundier there are now existing;.
41.")'J'5. You tliink home intluence has somethini; to do with driiikini.' habits J -
Decidedly.
4ir)'.M. T'he churches, I presume. <^\ercise some intluence, and also temperance ;nid
other societies? - Certainly.
H.")'.tr). |)o you think there is a chan-je ifi the sentiment towards the (|iiid< tralliias
it is carried on ! — Certainly, there is a chan;.;e.
4 !")!)(). What is the cliaiij;e ! — The temperance societies have exercised a unod deal
of intluence here.
41")i17. They are pretty strong ?— Yes : one intluence has been todee|ieri the feeliui,'
against the tratVic.
4ir)l)S. You nu'an they think badly of it ? Yes, that is natural.
4ir)'.>ll. Have they had any efl'ect on the coniinunity at large .' — ^'es : I tiiink lliey
have to a certain e.xtent.
4160U. Y'ou said, siieaking about prohibition, that you weri' not in favour of prolii-
bition yourself. Have you observed whether ilu-rt- is a urowing sentimi'nt in favour of
prohibition in till! province .' I cannot speak nmi'li of the juovinee. foil have been in
New ^Vestminster lately. In New Westminster' J ceitj'.inly do not think sn.
lltiUI. Do you think |)ublic sentiment is growiie, in that direction.' 1 eertaiidy
do not thirtk we want prohibition here.
41(102. Is ther'e a giowinu; feeling among the ]> 'ople in favour of nrore r'estrictions
being pla(!ed on the li(|Uor- tr'atlic .'- -If there is, 1 .>ever' hear'd any expression given toil.
4I()U.'}. How did it come about that the ditrereiii r'estiictioris weie incr<'ased lateiv
by the Legislature f— There was a feeling in favour- of it. Itefor'cthat law was enacted,
.saloons had been kept o[>en all day and on Sunday.
4H)04. NVas that cliarii;e the result of public feeling being ag;iinst the present sys-
tem? No, not specially on that account. I was a iiiembei- of the Council at thetinn'
the bvlaw was passed : it was passed because they thought it would be good for'thecily.
4100"). Woukl that seem to indicate that ther-e was a public sentiment and a
demand that more restrictioits shoulil be imposed, and that there should be a rest rici ion
especially as regards sale on Sunday? Yes, you iiright take it in that way.
Ht)0<). 'JMie Council I'ppear'ed to I'epresent public sci'timent in that matter? -Yes.
I1G07. You s])oke about the impracticability of jirolii lition. I)o you object topio-
hibition on pi'inciple, or' because it is impr'acticable .' I think it is iriiuraet i<able right
here.
41608. If it wer'e practicable, would you still object ,' -Personally, I do not believe in
pr'ohibitio I ; I believe in tempei'ance.
4I()0;). When the i)r'eserit systenr came into oper'ation. i'ei|uir'iiig the sign.itur'es of
two-thirds of the lot owners and mar'r'ied women on a ]petition for a license, did not all
the people now holding licenses have to comply vvitir that condition ; or- as c id liieiisees
did they continue ? — They went on. The only applicant under' the law fultilling -liis
condition of the law was one this yeai'. The others ar'eold licensees.
593
21—38**
■-
li^
Liquor Traffic — Britisli Columbia.
ii
BK^
THOMAS 0. ATKINSON, of New WestmiiiHter, <>n being duly sworn, deposed
us t'ollowH : — -
Jil/ Judye McDonald :
41610. T undiTstiiiMl you are Police Magistrate for the city? — Yes, and T am also
.Justice of tile Peace for the district of New Westminster.
UGI 1. How long have you resided in New Westminster / — Eight years.
4 161 '2. Have you lived anywiiere else in British Columbia? — No.
4161.'t. i)id you come from one of the other provinces ? — Yes, from the County of
Peel, Ontario.
4 Hi 14. When you came to this province, wa.s the license law in force? — Yes.
41()1."). We undei-stand that some amendments have been maile ? — Yes, several.
41616. In the discharge of your otticial duties have you been called uj)on to inves-
tigate and tiy cases of breach of the license law ? — I am, when such eases occur.
41617. How do vou find the license law to work here? — We Hnd it work very
well.
4161s. Are you a membei' of the Licensing Hoard? — Not now, and I have not been
since the new char-ter came into foi'ce, \ was for two yeai's. I was then Police Magis-
trate and was a member of the Licensing Hoaid, but I have not been for the last 4 years.
41619. Plow long have you been Polite Magistrate? — Since 1SH7.
4162U. We have learned from the M-yor that you lla^■e .special privileges under the
city charter, and a law for the closing of bar-rooms on Sunday in addition to the
pi'ohibition of sale on that day? — Yes.
41621. Have you had many cases before you of breaches of that law ? — No, only one
case since that by-law came into operation ; it was some three years ago. Tlie Sunday
clfisiiig law applies to all branches of business ; there has only been one case in regard to
the sale of licjuor on Sunday.
4162'i. How many cases of unlicensed sale have you had before you ? — We have had
no cases of unlicensed .sale, that is to say in any unlicen.sed house. We had two cases of
sale at the fair on the gi'ounds, but there has been no case in connection with any house.
4162;{. Have you had very many cases of sale to Indians? — A great many years
ago that was one of the ditticulties we had to contend with.
41624. AVhat class of people are genei'ally guilty of that charge? — Persons charged
are almost wholly persons whom you might call jail birds.
41620. They are not persons holding licenses then? — No. The only case in which
a person hokling a license was charged with .selling li(|uor to Indians was five years ago.
On investigating the case we found that the case was a false charge, and that the man
I'efused to supply an Indian with liijuor'. Wo. even found that the Indian who asked the
person to supply him with liijuor afterwards laid the charge ; but of cour.se he was not
supplied. We found on investigating the charge in the police court, that there was
nothing in it.
41626. Have you many cases of drunkenness brought before you ? — No.
41627. A'iewing this coinnuniity from your experience as a Police JIagistrate and
also as a citizen, dct you think it is orderly and law-abiding? — Yes, very much so.
4162(S. Comparing it with other communities, how do you find it? — I think it com-
pares veiy favoui'ably with other communities of the same size or with much larger cities.
41629. You investigate cases sent for trial to the assizes. I suppose? — Y'e.s.
41630. Taking that class of cases, do you find any proportion <tf them are directly
traceable to the use of intoxicating drink ? — No, I cannot say that they are really trace-
able to inti^xicating drink, although they may be in particular cases.
41631. Were any cases those of Indians charged with criminal oifences ? — Yes, one
was.
41632. Then we understand that here you have a class of men of different nationali-
ties c gaged in the canning business ? — Yes.
41633. Does the presence of those people add at all to the amount of crime; I in-
clude breaches of the municipal by-laws ? — No, I cannot say that it does. Of course during
Thom.\s C. Atkinsox.
594
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
tlip fishing season when tin- camif'i'ie.s are rumiiii<; full blast, we lia\o iimri' cases in the
police court, hut they are not cases of serious nature.
416.14. You have here no douWt chui'ch and temperance societies f Yes.
4163"). Do all those have a tendeni'v to pioniote temperance and tenii)eriince work 1
—Yes.
4U).'?(). Have you noticed any chanjje hei-e since you came, in what ini;,'lil he called
the social habits of the people? Yes, I have noticed <;reat chiin<^es.
416.'17. There is less drinkin;; now than there was formerly/ -Yes.
41638. Have you considered at all the ipiestionof prohibition !— I cannot sav that I
have considered it veiy much. I considered it when it came up for discussion.
416;?y. Takin;.; the province as you know it, and takin;; your experii'me of if, do
you think prohibition could be enforced in it / -No, I do not ; I do not think it could be
enforced ; I think it would not work. My ivason is based on what I know of prohibition
in the east, and in places where the Scott Act was in force.
41640. Then vou have had experience under the Scoot Act .' -Yes, in two counties
under the Scott Act, Halton and DuHerin. 1 know the woi'kiti<5 of the Scott Act pretty
well in Halton. F was here two years and went back east, and during; that time it was
carried in the County of DuflFerin. I went into the town one eveiiinj;, althou<;h I had
been hundreds of times before, durinj; the occasion of a larf.;e jjatherini,' and 1 never saw
so many drunken people in the town in one evenini; as when the Scott Act was in force.
It was the same in other places. 1 was also in Cornwall when the Scott Act was in
force there. From what 1 saw of the ojieration oi that law, 1 am satisfied that it would
be very difficult to enforce prohibition.
41641. You understand that one of the phases of the proposed enactment of a
national prohibition is the prohibition of the manufacture, importation and sale of
intoxicating linuors for beverage purposes t I undtM'stand so.
41642. Of course under the Scott Act the people had the right to bring in li(|Uor
for their own private use',' — Yes.
41643. Taking such a prohibitory law as is proi)osed, what is callcil nsitional pro-
hibition, it would involve the right of search both of the residences and persons of the
people? — Yes, I understand that.
41644. And the right to seari-h tra\ellers j)assing through the country and every-
thing of that kind. From your opiiuijii of the country, do you believe it would be
possible to carry out such a law '! — Not without the greatest trouble and dilliculty.
41645. From your knowledge of the country and of the sentiment of the pe <i>le of
British Columbia on that subject, do you think such a law >voul(l be l)acked up by the
people ? — That is a difficult (juestion to atiswei'.
41646. From your knowledge of the |)eople of Mritish Columbia and from your
knowledge of the sentiment prevailing, <lo you believe that the trend of public sentiment
would be such as to make [lossiblo the enforcement of such a law '! I think that is a
difficult question. There are a nund)er of peojile who express themselves in favour of
prohibition on sentimental grounds, but who would not assist in carrying out the law.
41647. In case of the enactment of such a law, prohibiting the manufacture,
importation and sale of Intoxicating licpmrs for beverage pui'pose, do you believe the
distillers and brewers should be c()mpensated for loss of plant and machiiuiry ? d think
.so, because it would be only following the law of eipiity.
41648. Have you any suggestions you could oiler to the Commission on the (|Uestion
of the traffic, either in regard to its regulation or (jtherwise? No, 1 <1() not think so,
because in connection with my official duties [ find that our laws in the province at the
present time are very liberal, and I think the liquor tratlic is kept under control.
Bi/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
41649. Do you keep the court records'? — ^Yes.
416.50. Have you many cases before you of one kiiK. and another ?— Yes, we hold
the court daily.
41651. Of all the cases that come before you what percentage are for drunkenness ?
— I could not answer that question ofl' hand.
41652. ^Vill your records show it ?— The court books show every charge.
586
21-
-38|*=i
**
Liquor Tniftic — Miitisli Columbia.
(I.
M.l
II vmii' iiiiiituil n'|Mtrt'/ — Y«'s, v
Yt.'H. We also
ii'c rt'corus
liMN'i- ill! annual
lakc a moiitlilv
41ti.">;5. Is ilit'i'i' a slati'iiit'iil. in
aiitl also a iiuailt-rly report,
41(>")(. |)iM's it a|i{jt>iu' ill tilt
rt'jMjrt to tlic ('laiiicil.
H (')")'). Will it show wliat pi'i'(?('nta<,'(' cases of flniiikeimess bear to tlu^ whole
iiuiiiber of oH'em^es coinin;,; before you .' You eaii tell that by lookini,' over the record,
4lti5(), I'lease til(' a copy of last year's repoi't, which will inchulo such a stateiiiuiit ?
— There is a t'opy in the court.
U(i57. I lin«l from tlu^ eo|)V here that before the police ciairt in l^lll, there wert?
:;">'.) cases and of those \'A'2 were di-unks, or oiie-lialf of the whole. |)oyou think that
is a fair a\'eia;,'e .' Yc-s,
thins. Then I notice there are assaults, assaults with inli'iit to do ;;rie\ous bodily
liarin, breache-* of the bylaws, disordei's on the streets, cruelty to animals, disturbing
worship ill church, tij^htinj;, freiiucntiii",; houses of ill-faine, keepin;; such houses, ]ierjury,
robbery, .selliii;; intoxicants to iiidiaiis. So it would appear that tliere were li'l' uses of
drunkenness and \'.\7 other cases. C'an you tell what proportion of the IH7 case.-, were
traceable to the drink hal)it and drink tratlic, directly or indirectly / -T will not under-
take to j{i\e a correct statement, because I would only be ha/ardin;( an answer.
4H'>")'.). Can you tell the nuiiiber appro.ximately ? — It would only be a <;uess.
HtHJU. Take th(^ eif,'ht va;,'raiits : would not any proportion be due to drink.' -
Yes, 1 slioiild say so in ref,'ard to vagrancy.
41()<>1. Take the assaults : would any proportion of them be due to drink .' — Ye.s,
very pi'obably.
4 ItiOl'. Take breaches of the bylaws and disorders on tin? streets .' - Yes, they would.
41()<).'i. Take flisturi)in>; divine worslii|), only one such case }ia\iii<,' occurred ; cases
of fre(iuentiiijf houses of ill-fame, and there wer(! four of them, and there wtu'e three
oa.ses of inmates and three of keepers. Were all those connected with the drink ; djii- id
the drink habit ,' —1 could not say that ytai could char>^e them to diljik.
lll>()b Mave your otlicers found on raidiiii^ houses of ill-fame that li(Hior vas
always there? I do not think in regard to those particular matters that the report
shows anythinii al)out liijuor.
Ht)!)"). Take cases of larceny; would any be dut' to liipior .' 1 could not say. I do
not think they would be directly traceable to li(|Uiir, although in some cases it might
1)0 so.
I Ititii). Wiaikl it be within bounds to .say that .")U per cent of the cases would Ur in
some way connected with the drink trade and habit? -It is altogether probable.
4I()()7. You spoke about IxMiig in Scott Act counties east. Were you visitiiiL;
there, or were you staying there for any length of time? — So far as regards Duti'eriii, I
was there for a visit, because 1 li\t'd just along the line outside the town.
41008. I thought you paid a visit there after you came west? — In one case it was
a visit, but I was there for a consideral)le time.
410G0. Do you tliink, from youi' personal e.vperience during a lengthy pei'iod. that
drunkenness inci'eased during the Scott Act ? -I am not preparetl to say there was
any increase, but I know it was very common.
41070. Y'^ou have expressed the opinion that ))roliibition could not be enforced in
Uritisji Columbia. Would you state bi-ietly your reasons for holding the ojiinion that it
coulfl not be enfoi'cefl ? What .state of things exists here that would make enforcemciit
dirticult ? -T said it wf)uld be ditticult. ]\Iy reasons for giving that answei- are these :
in the Hrst place, our jKtsition here is one that makes it very easy to carry on smuggling ;
wc have great oppf)rtunities here for doing that.
41671. I su}>pose there is smuggling of some clas.ses of goods now ? Yes, occasion-
ally, l)ut I do not think very much.
4107-. There is smuggling of opium, I believe?- -Yes.
4107;^. I think they iiave that repeated in the far east? — Y(?s, smuggling is a
bu.siness with some people.
41674. Do you think that some men would go into the business of snniggling liijuor.
if a prohibitory law was enacted ? — I do.
TnoM.vH C. Atkinson.
596
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
llt>7.">. I»n ynii siurt't'd pretty well Mitli tin- Suiidiiy proliiliit inn nt' ilir li<|U(ir tmdtj ?
S|)ciikini; t'niiii iiu ntHciii! nl)S('i\ati<'f>, I sny yt's, licriiiisc we Iium' iki iiisi's licfm-f tli(>
(•((Hit.
H<>7t'). Nil ruM's liiivc licfii l)riiUL;lil lii't'iiir ymi ,' Nu.
■HG77. IliiM'yuu I'l'iisKii to U'lit'M' llml tlii'ii- is a tVciiin,' tiiiil liicii' me \ iiiliiliniis
lit' tiic law, t'M'ii lliiiiij.'li no cases lijiM' lierii liii>ui;lil a;,'aiiiHt ctfVfiiders ? Viiii iiieiiii in
tlie rily .'
11<)7>>. ^'(■s. I lia.f iici i-easoii tii tliiiik so.
Iltu'.l. Tlii'ii till' law, Villi tiiiiik, is t'aiily well olisei'Ved ? Yes, sn t'ar as 1 kriiiw.
lltiSO. |)ii Villi tliiiik that llie piilice lia\e jireat ditliriilty in seein;; llial the prnxi-
>ii HIS of the law are oliserved f I do not think so: if there was an\' ditlieiillv tliev
Would hriii;,' the parties into eoiirl,
ill'tSl. Is the law observed lieeause of the yieat \ igilimee and faithfulness of the
jiolice, or do liie licensees ol)ser\e the Sunday Closing' Act irrespecti\e of the police ','--
'i'hat is hard to say. 1 should not like to say that it was altoi;etlier irrcs|ieci ivc of the
police, and yet I would not like to say that the licensees make no sale on Sunday iiecause
of the police.
H<i>'L'. Supjiose the police were less \ij;ilanl, would the Sunday Act lie as well
oljser\c<l as it is to-day ? I ha\e no reason to say im. f think a net,Mli\e answer to
that ipiestion would he proluihly .sentimental : l>ut .speaking from what I know, I have
no reason to say no.
Jii/ Jinhji' MrDoniihl :
H(is;}. Are you a liarrister ! -T am.
UtiSf. Take a prohihitory law, which ymi lielie\i' would he inipossihle of enforce-
ment, what Would he the effect on the puhlic conscience of havini;' on the statute-lKiok
a law that was persistently and freipiently violated '. Very liail ; lietter ha\c no law
than one that is not observed.
Jli/ J^'i: Dr. Mch-n,l:
IKiN.!. Supposiriji the Sunday law here was flagrantly violated, would you think it
well to rejieal it or to enforce it i Knforce it by all means. As supplementing my
answer to the |ii'e\ious (juestion, 1 desii'e to mention that we ha\e an amendment to our
license law whereby it is provided that the lii-ensee selling to any into.vicaled person
whatever is liable to a fine and se\ere imprisonment : and nio'co\or we ha\e the Youth's
Protection Act, which is of \eiy great service.
■IIOSO. ^Vhat is the limit of age f- Si.xleen years.
416!S7. Have you observed any sale of liipiorto bovs under I ti years '. \ think since
18i*'7, tliere ii;is only been one case under that Act. We have also another Act which is
very beneficial, that is the Drunkard's Act, by which drunkarils can be interdicted and
jilaced under the pi'ovisions of the Act for 12 months. Although that .Act has bi en in
force fill' years —I am speaking from memory only I lia\eliad occasion to make an
order out for only one individual case.
41()H(>!. Is that application granted on the ]. tition
tlie application <if the indi\idual himself. In this case
of the individual himself in the first instance.
11689. He wanted to be protected ,' -Yes.
41()90. Although there has only been one case of interdiction and at the per.son's
own reipiest, yet there were 122 drunks before you last year ? — Yes.
11691. i)o you believe the fact that there was only one interdiction indicate.s
that there are no drunkards in New AVest minster, or do you believe from this rec<ird
that there are a good many .' I do not believe that there is only one di'unkaid
here, neither do I believe there are a good many You must consider that a great many
of those cases are cases of people passing through the city. They occasionally come up
in the Police Court, and when I ask where they came from, they probably say from the
other side of the line or from Vancouver.
41692. Ate there many repeaters here ? -Yes, tiiere are a number of those cases,
liut not very inanv. You couUl not judge in regard to drunkenness by the number of
■^ ' ' 697
of the man's wife ? Yes, or on
it was made on the application
\\
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
interdictions, because very many of the drunkards are only labouiinj; men, and of course
there would he no person to look into their affairs or to see t«j the enforcement of the
Act in their behalf, for of course it is not the duty of the police U) do so.
WILLIAM MORSELEY, of New Westminster, on being duly swoi'n, deposed as
follows :
Jij/ Ji(d(/f McDonald :
41693. What position do you occupy? — I am Goveru(jr of the Provincial Jail.
-11694. Are there other jails here? — There is a penitentiary, a provincial jail, and
a lock-up belonging to the nmnicipal authorities.
4169."). How long have you resided in British Columbia? I have been here since
1^60, I think.
41696. Did you come here from one of tlie other provinces?- Xo, I came from
England.
41697. How many prisoners have you in jail at the present time? — Somewhere in
the neighbourhood of 50 or 60.
41698. Charged with different offences, I suppose? — Yes.
4 1 699. Are they all under sentence? Almost all are, but some are awaiting trial.
41700. What is the length of term of imprisonment of prisonei's under your control
and in your jail ? — 23 months on one oHence. Tliey can be in for two offences and ser\ c
one term and then another.
41701. Then prisoners for over two years ai'e sent to the ])enitentiary ? — Yes.
H702. Are prif;)ners sent to your jail from different parts of the j)rovince? — Yes.
41 "03. Are you able to say whether any proportion, and if so whether it is a large
oi' small one, of the prisoners under your charge ai-e there owing to drunkenness ( In
one way and m different waj's.
41704. You believe that a proportion of tlie prisoners there are there owing to
U"unkenness?- A large proportion.
H70;j. Are any of those person;-, convicted of di'unkenness? \'ery few.
41706. They are convicted for othei' offences which you attribute directly or indi-
rectly to the use of intoxicating li(iuor.s ?— Yes.
41707. Have y( u as a citizen obser\ed th(> operation of the license law in this com-
munity ? — In some p>ai'ticulars 1 have.
41705. In your opinion does it Mork satisfactorily ? — In some instances it does.
41709. What are the instances in which it does not? I think there should be n\ore
restrictions placed on the licensees in regard toth iliipioi'sold by them, as to the(|uality,
and as to tht! parties tf) "/iiom they should sell.
4171U. Would you favour, then, the rigid inspection i-f li(|Uor in licensed hou.ses ?
— Yes, mosc assured!}.
41711. What is the difficulty as to persons t»> who! i sale is made? — In some in-
stances they will sell to nu>n who liaxc already taken a <|uantity, and they cause tliem
to become drunk.
41712. That is contrary to law .' I am speaking more especially of the disti-ict.
41713. Then you are not speaking of the city but of the (-ountry parts? — Yes, of
the country parts.
41714. Have you had any experience of a prohibit:>ry law ? No.
41710. You ha\e not been in atiy country wiiere pi'oliibitiou was in r'orce / — No.
41716. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you believe if a general pro-
hibitory law were pasicd for the whole |)*iniinion, prohibiting the manufacture, im))oi-
tation and .sal'? of intoxicating li(jut)rs for beverage purposes, it ccaild be enforced ?--l
do not. I tl 'nk it would be impossible to enforce such a law in British ('olumbia.
TuoM.\s C. Atkinson.
598 f
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41717. For what reason? — Tlie peoph- \vo\il(.l he able to set lii|iior tVom tlic Ameri-
can side, and they would n\in> distil it and manufacture it fot- themselves. [Resides tiiat,
the country is so larj^e that it .lould he impossible to enforce such a iaw. !•. (n-t the
Indians north manufacture li(jUor for themselves.
41718. Are you accjuainted witli the northern part of the count i-v ? -Yes. with
part of it. I have to go up there often.
41719. What do the Indians use in manuf.acturing the liquoi'/ -I beliexe sea-weed
is used.
41720. In cfise of the enactment of a general prohibitoi'v law, do ndu believe that
brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and ..lachinerv rendered
u.seless ? — I should certaiidy say so.
.61/ Rt'v. Dr. McLeod :
41721. Have you many Juvenile i)fl'enders hei'e ? — X'ery few
population.
41722. Of those 60 offenders, for instance, how many would be undtn' 1
age 1 — I have only one boy.
4172.'{. 8o they are all old persons (U- persons between 20, .'?(!, ami 4tlf
would be aljout ."5')
iccordiiii,' tu the
■^ years of
The average
41724. Do we understand you to .say that persons ;ire not sent to the provincial
jail merely for being drunk I — -No : but for othei- offences. I have now some tommitted
for trial on charges of murder, three or four cases, and a good manv cases of burglarv
and selling whisky to Indians.
4172.^. And you have cases of petty larceny and such t)f!'eiices, I supj)ose .' Y'es.
41726. T understand that, in your opinion, the license law might be im]>r()ved. Do
you think it would be well to limit the number of licenses granted in a town like this,
even unTe than they are limited now? — I do not see that if you did so, it woulil make
any difference. T do not think there are too miiny here.
41727. Do you find that incarccn'ated in jail here are any ])ercentage of thesis
people who have freipiented the saloon when not in jail? — There are a few cases.
41728. Do you have many Chinamen iimong the prisoners? — A gofxl innny Chinamen.
41729. What are their off<'nces, generally speaking? .Mostly selling li(|Uorto Indians
and i>etty larceny and assaults, especially assaults on one anoihei'.
By Jiuhje Mt-Donnld :
41730. Take the j)ersons in jail foi' murder and serious crime : of what class aie they
and what race? — At present we havt? an Indian rharged with killing a white man. and
one Indi.an for killing anothei' Duliaii : and we ha\e also the ea'^e of a man and wife
killing a prostitute or tin- keeper of a house of ill-fame.
By Her. Dr. MrLeod :
41731. Do you know uhetlier tlie majority of tli<- men charged with si'riou^
ces or with l»etty offences that come under your charge, are addicted to the drink
—I believe they all drink.
41732. l^o you have many total a.l)stainers incarcer.'i ted ! No, 1 liaxrliad i
have had the IJlue Hil)br)n card taken away from them.
41733. Which class form the majority, the total abstuineis or tlie other ela
should sny the other class.
otl'e.i-
iiaiiit J
[
By Judge McDonald .
41734. Are you in a jRtsition to say which class is in tin
nitv, total abstainers, those who drink immoderately, or those
ration? There are very few moderati' dritikers in the jail.
4173;"). Then they ar(> mostly jjeople who drink immoderately
come from the American side and wlio are tri vcOlers.
599
niiijoiity in this eommu-
w ho liike li(|Uor in niiKle-
Yes, persons w ho
1
i
• i Hi
1
1
I,' '
^^,
K
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
If' -i
i_ it
WILLIA^I HOUSTON, of New Westminster, on being duly sworn, deposed as
follows :
By Jndye MrDonald: ^
417^56. ^^'hflt position do you occupy? — I am Chief Constable of thecity imd also
License Inspector.
417."}". How long have you lived in British Columbia ? About 2 years.
4173i^. Where did you come fromf-From Manitoba.
417.'i9. How long have you Ijeen Chief of Police? -A year and a half.
41740. Wei'e you on the police force in Manitoba? — -Yes, 11 years on the pmvin-
eiid and city force. 1 was on the city force in Winnipeg al)out o years.
11741. AN'ere you e\er in the North-west Mounted Police ! No, never.
4174'J. Taking this conniiunity as you have found it and with your knowledge of it
and of othei' connnunities, do you believe that it is a sober and law-abiding coinuuuiity '.'
— Very much so.
4174;}. You think it compares fav(jurably with other comnmnities ?- Yes, with
any in which I iiave lived.
41744. Both as Licen.se Inspector and as Chief CVtnstable you are brought into
contact with the people and the carrying out of the license law? Yes.
41745. How do you tind the law works here?- It works very well ; as well as it
works elsewhere.
4174(). Is it worked .satisfactorily or not? The law is satisfactorily carrieil out.
41747. That is your experience as an official? — Yes.
4174S. Do the people in the trade conform to the provisions of the law ? -Yes.
4174!). Have you reason to believe there is any unlicensed sale of liipior going on
in the conniiunity? No, 1 have not.
417'")0. We have heard of sale of liquor to Indians : those are individual instances.
1 suppose? Yes, but of those who have licenses at the present time I do not tiiink there
is one who sells to Indians,
417r)l. As to the obser\ ance of the Sunday closing law, what is youi' experience .'
- It is very well observed here.
4175J. ( )ur attention was called by one of the witnesses to an amemlment which
he thought necessary, namely, in regard to having a thorough and fre(juent inspection of
liquoi' made. Do you think such an amendment is necessary ? 1 1 might be a wise
course to pursue. I have reason to believe that liquor is better here vhan in Ontario.
41753. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law? Yes, to some extent.
41754. Where? — In the Lake of the Woods district during the construction of
the Canadian l^acitic l{ailway, at Bat Portage, where 1 was \}, years.
41755. Wiiose section was that / Mr. Heeney's.
4175G. He was the contractor? - Yes.
41757. Was it under prohibition provided by the Public Works Act .'-Yes.
41758. Were you an otHcer? — Yes.
41759. AVere you able to enforce the Act/ — No, it was iiiipo.ssilile.
It
41700. AN'hat was the difficulty ? Smuggling.
41701. What class of people did the smuggling
and men who made a business of it.
41702. What kind of liquor did they bring in?
a great deal of
? Hailway men did
poor quality
-Li(|Uor of \ ery
4170."{. In what kind of vessels was it brought (-- In barrels, with meal packetl all
round. Sometimes it was in barrels I'arried in front of the engine, and these would be
ilrop|)ed off at different points.
41704. Did you faithfully endeavour to carry out the law?- I did.
41765. But you found it impossible to do so? -Yes.
41700. From your experience and knowletlge of this country, do you believe a
prohibitory law could be etlectually enforced and carried out I Not if they had such a
law as there was in Manitoba or the North-west Territories. Jt woukl be easy to bring
it from the Tniteil States.
WiLLI.XM HoLSTUN.
600
T
^m
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
417t)7. Wliut (It) you tliink al)out continentiil jiroliibitioii. Dn you tliiiik that
could lie successfully cari'icd out ? T consider that tlicrc \v<nd(l l>o illii-it niaiuit'iicture
then.
417t)S. Have you any knowledge of illicit manufacture wliei'e you luivi' heen, in
Manitoba and elsewhere .' —Yes.
41 769. liy whom ? By farmers.
41770. What did they use? — The only case that 1 really know jn'rsonaily was on
.se\en years ago, and 1 do not know what was used.
41771. In case of the enactment of a general jirohihitory law, a law to iirnhihit the
manufacture, im|i(U'tation and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverage ]iurj)oses, do you
think it would be riglit to c(jmpensatt> brewers and distillers for loss of plant rendei-ed
Useless ? — Yes.
4177:.'. From your experience as an oHicer, can you make any suggestion to the
Commission as tn amendments in the license law that would render it more eU'ectivcr? —
The license law here is very diHerent from that in Manitoba oi' ( )ntari(». No doidit a
good many amendments could be made that would be etlective. I think the standard of
holders of licenses should be put very high and the standard of accommodation should also
be pl.'iced \ery high.
/>',// R-r. Dr. M<'Lr,„l;
1177.'i. Do you think it would be well if the sahions were all renuired to <'lose at
night.' Tnder the liritish Ciihmibia licen.se law this does not appear to lie necessary,
acco-'ding to the; evidence before us in Victoria and Manitoba. - -We i.'lo.se here at 2
o'clock in the morning.
41774. And o})en when? -Ojten again at G o'clock.
4177o. Would it be an improvement if they wei'e required to close earliei- here? —
No. f do \w\. see that it would.
4177fi. !So tliey all keep open until L' o'clock .' No, very few of t hem keep open
after 1 1 or 12, for business eea.ses and they clo.se.
41777. ^^'e had it in evidence in Wintiipeg from a gentleman who had a \ery large
section of the Canadian Pacific Jtailway to construct. I think east of Winnipeg, that he
enforced jirohibition on iiis .section during the construction period, and enfmxcd it
etVectually. Mr. ^^ifton is the gentleman to whom I refer? — I lU'ver heard of it.
Bij J nihil- McDiinnkl :
11778. He stated that with a constable he succeeded efi'ectually in enforcing i)ro-
!iil)ition during construction t It was not dui'ing my time. I think tlieif were seven
jMilice thei'e, and it was not done.
/;.// Ix'ir. Dr. MrLruil:
1177!t. Is it your duty as Inspector to see that tlie conditions under which licenses
aie granted are I'arried out ? -Yes.
41780. As to the Mund>er of rooms ? — Yes.
41781. In what other respects? To see that the houses are well kept.
1178L'. Do you \isit the places periodically! Yes, every month and .ilii.nst c\ci\
^vcek.
4178.'i Do you tind t'uit some do not coni))ly strictly with the provisidos of the law .'
— 1 have not found many yet.
41784. Do you iind it dilUcult to enforce the .Sunday clause of the law .' Not at all.
41785. Do the licensees do it ? -Yes, and the citizens sujipnit tluMn.
4I78G. In what way .' — Hy not jiatronizing them on Sunday.
41787. flax'e you had no complaints of violation of the law .' No.
11788. You therefore believe thei'e are no viulations.' I have reason to believe
there are none.
41789. Do you visit tlu' hotels tu see whether the laws ale cniii|ilied with or not '
■.- Yes.
41790. Are their bars closed! Yes. \\'lien 1 say closed, you must leincmlier thai
there is no^prohibition against lights i)eing used, and therefore you would imagine fruiii
the nutside that business was going on simplv because the bars are lightetl.
(JOi
Liquor Traffic — Hritish Columbia.
41791. Hut most of them have lights burning I No : some have and some have not.
In some ca.se.s the barroom and tlie sitting-room are (ill one. with the exception of aboard
partition running half-waj' up.
41 792. There are no folding doors? Yes, but they oidy go three-fourths of the way
Uj My opinion is that the bur should be entirely separate from the rest of the house. .
4179.5. You think that would make it easier to observe the law ? — Yes.
41794. How many of the present licensees — and we understand they are 17 or 18 —
have com[)lied with the requirements of the law which says that they shall olitain three-
fourths of the signatures of the lot owners and married women in the neighbfmrhood ?- —
We have not had any.
4179"). Then they were all old licensees ! — You understand that the hotels having
over thirty rooms have not to comply with that. That rule applies only to those making
new apjjlications for the first time.
41796. Has this condition to be complied with'/ — Yes.
41797. Have a certain numl)er of licenseivs complied with those conditions? — -No.
41798. Ho we are to understand that all had licenses when the law came into opera-
tion ? — Yes.
41799. And therefore they are not to comply with those conditions? — I suppo.se so.
41800. Were both saloons in existence at that time? — T could not say.
41801. Did they have tf> comply with that condition?—! could not say.
JOHN C. BKOWX, M.P.P.. ..f New Westminster,
as follows . —
on being duly sworn, depo.sed
By J)id(jc, McDomild :
41802. What position do you hold ? I am postmaster.
4180.'5. I understand you are also a member of the Legislature? — Yes.
41804. For what district ? — For this city : during 1890-91 T was Mayor of this city.
41800. How long have you resided in British Columbia ?— Thirty years.
4180t). Did you come here from one of the other provinces? — No, from Ireland.
41807. Is this city an orderly and law-abiding one ?- Yes.
41808. Have you found any changes in the social customs of the people in regard
to the use of intoxicating liquors. Was there more drinking when you came to the
province than there is to-day ? — T think so. I am not, howeier, in a position to speak
of that, because I do not drink myself, and am not as a rule whei'e drinking is going on.
Still I think the answer of the witness who preceiled me put the case very fairly ; we have
now an altogether dillierent state of affairs. Now there are more homes, the drinking now
is more for good fellowship, at all events it does not conie out as plainly as it did in (he
old days, iiesides, people who thought nothing of going to the l)ar antl drinking twenty
years ago, would not do so now.
41809. Have the influences of church tn-gJinizations and tenqiei'ance .societies been
favourable to the deci'ease in the drinking habits of the people' Yes, decidedly so.
41810. The Mayor said that in the eiirly days there was more drinking, because
the surrourdings were different than they ire now ? Untloubtedly.
4181 1. You think all these elements have to be taken into consideration ? — Yes, for
they all have their influences.
41812. You have stated that yt)u, yourself, are a total abstainer? Yes.
4181;?. Have you considered the (juestion of prohibition ? Yes ; but I should like
to say .something, j)articularly in regard to that question about drinking habits, having
special reference to New Westminster. I am very ghul to hear such strong testimony
from the ofticials \)i regard to the moral standing of this city. I think it is only fair to
attribute a good deal of this to our cliarter, which gives us a better license law than
prevails in any other part of the province. We have more restrictions and they have
WlI.MAM HoU.STOX.
602
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
taken a special form. There is a clause of the by-law by which no sal(X)n-keeper can be
granted a license until the number falls below two ; in fact two is our maximum number
of saloon licenses. There is another point I may mention in this connection. After tliat
by-law was passed there were constant applications, even as late as wlien I was a mem-
ber of the Licensing Board, to have the Bf)ard break that law ; there were applications
made for saloon licenses which could not be granted under the Act.
418U. Take the license law as it is now in the city, does it work satisfactorily ? —
It works umch better than the general license law of the province.
41815. Are you personally in favour of a license law as opposed to prohibition ?— No.
41816. You favour prohibition? — Yes. 1 do not know how fully you have entered
into the matter.
41817. I do not wish you to go into the matter further.- I want to explain my
reasons. I think they are sufficient to lead me to favour prohibition. I think prohibi-
tion prom" J"^ to produce such satisfactory results as to warrant a trial of it as an experi-
ment, i. . . ejection to the license law, and I have very strong objection to it, is
because I .object to the connnunity deriving part of the public revenue from what I lonk
upon as an improjier act, as licensing a trade which creates crime.
41818. So in principle you look upon it as wrong to license the liijuor traffic?— I
certainly think so.
41819. Do you consider it an improper thing to do? — \'es.
41820. Therefore, on principle, you favour prohibition ? — Y'es.
41821. Do you consider, from your experience of British Columbia, that if would
be practicable to enforce prohibition in this province? — I can speak very uncertainly in
regard to most of the province, except with regard to New AVestminster and district.
I have resided in this city for 'M \'ears, excepting thi'ee and a half or four years. Taking
the people of tnis district as a whole, I think such a prohibitory law as you describe
could be enforced as well as the Customs laws are carried out.
41822. How are your Customs laws enforced ? — Very well.
4182.'5. You mean as regards making people pay duty on articles brought in ? — Yes,
and preventing smuggling.
41824. Suppose it would be possible to prevent, by a law, articles being brought
into the eo:intrj', duty or no duty, could such a law be as easily enforced ? — It depends
entirely on what the articles were ; you could not starve people.
4182"). Then you see there is a difference between the ordinary collecting of duties
and preventing articles being brought in at all? My position is, that taking a n.-itional
prohibitory law on the statute-book, it would be the duty of all loyal people to support that
law. If that law was enforced by exery per.son whose dutj' it was to enforce that law,
I think it could be enfoi'ced as well as other laws. I beliexe the public sentiment in
New Westminster supports the license law more than it did at first.
41820. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law.' No, I have never
lived in any prohibitory country.
41827. Do you know of any country in the woi'ld where such a law is in force? —
No : of course I can only speak fr'om my reading and study.
41828. So it would lie an (\\.j)eriment? — Yes.
41829. An experiment well worth trying? Y'es, I think it would be well worth
trying. What I mean '.. this, from all my reading. Of course I have not umch to do
with that class who are acting under the license law, and legally so, but who have a
vested interest and a financial interest in opposing a prohibitory law. I think that
influence would, of coui'se, be \ery strong againsi the enforcement of such a law. Then
we have a C(miniunity saturated with the idea that a certain (|uantity of li<|Uor is neces-
sary, even many temperance people and moderate ilrinkers think that. So thert; we
have it. When we have a diseased body we cannot expect that the application of I'enic-
dies will be felt in a moment, but we nmst allow a little time.
418:iO. ,\s a member of the Legislature do you think the legislative body is repre-
-sentative (tf the opinions of the people? — Yes.
418.'U. Supposing you had the constitutional right as u province to carry such a
law as you wish, do you believe that the Legislature constituted as it is would carry
such a law?- I think we would not do so now.
603
liiquor Traffic — Hritish Columbia.
41>>.Hl'. In cfiHC of the enactment of such ii liiw, a law to proliil)it the inanufactiii'u
importation and sale of alcohoHc li(juors for i)evei'aj,'e ])iirpose, do you think it would be
rif^ht, and just to remunerate brewers and distillers foi- loss of plant and maehinerv ren-
dei-ed useless ! That is a questi(m T have not deeply considered, but the mt^n now enj^aj^jed
in the liipior traHic are enf,'ajied legally, and therefore it would seem fair to me that they
.should receive some compensation if their business was taken away from them, liut
my answer to the (piestion you asked me a little while ago about our Legislature should
be qualified in this way : I desire to explain that the L«>gislature represents f)nly one-
foui'tli of the people of the province, because the repn^sentation is based on a system 20
years old, anfl the province has changed so that the large constituencies have small repre-
sentation and the small ones large representation. So while oui- Legislature would act
as T have indicait-d as at pre.sent constituted, it would attbrd no fair test.
418.'{;5. Has this (piestion of prohibition been made a test vote at any election? No.
418."J-1. So the people have not passed on it in any form ? -They ha \e not, to my
recollection.
% Bev. Ih: MvLmd:
41S.'5.5. If it were made a test ijuestion at the general elections, have you any idea
what the result would be ? I could hai'dly answer that (juestion, because so nmch depends
on the personal popularity of the candidates and upon ))ersonal considerations, for one
])arty jnight have a man who would not be elected undei- any circumstances and you
might lia\e a man almost certain to be elected whatever his party. The.se considerations
would influence the election vei-y much.
4I83G. 1>> you think it would be well to have a plebiscite taken h(!re as was done
in Manitoba?- 1 do not really kn.'>w ; 1 have not considered the (juestion at all.
418.S7. But J understood you to say that the Sunday enforcement of the license law
had created a pul)lic sentiment in tVvourof those restrictions? — As I undertand it, T
think so and I feel it is so. I think the sentiment in favour of it to-day isstrongei' than
when it was passed, that is I believe the majority recognize the benefit that it has
conferi'ed.
41iS.S8. As a repre,sentative man and as a man who has oliserxed the busines.s affairs
of the province, have you observed whr.t effect the li(|Uor traHic has had on the business
interests of this country during (1 year!*? — I scarcely know how to answer that (piestion.
I have known one or two cases where men failed in business becau.se they drank to
excess.
41839. Has the li<iuor traffic, as it has been carried on, been harmful or not to other
businf^ss interests, speaking in a broad way ? -Of course I have no facts or figures, but
1 should .say it has been harmful.
41840. Have you noticed the effect of the li<|Uor traHic on the moral and .social life
of the community ? - I think the (governor of the Jail answered that, when he said that
he had no total abstainers in the jail.
Ji'DCK M<1)0NALD. The witness did not sav he had no total abstainers there.
John C. Bhown.
604
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ISAAC B. FISHKH, <>t' New NNVstiiiinster, nn beiiij,' duly swuiii, deiiosod as
follows ;--
llif Jnd<j<' Mr/)i)iiii/(l ;
H8H. What is youf liUMiiiess or (iccuiKitioii ? I .iin out of husinoss ; fonnorly F
was Mana«;er of the Hank of l>ritisli Columbia.
-H842. How loii^ liave you resided in New W'fstiniiistor / In all for :{(» vcais,
altlioufili T was absent for about 10 years.
41SH5. Did you come hei'e ori;,'inally fi'oni tlie niothei' country or from one of tlie
province.s / f came heie from llie motlier country.
41844. Have you held any public position .' No.
4184"). Have you found this I'onnnunity, as a whole, law-abidinu and orderly.' —
Yes, exceed in.tfly mk
4184(1. Ha\-e you considered the question of prohibition? Yes, lo a cei'tain extent.
41847. From your knowledije of the country, do you think a prohibitory law would
be practicable of enfoi-cement in Itritisli Cobunbia .' Certainly not, unless voii wish to
ruin the country.
41848. What would be the ditliculty .' .V u;reat jiortion of the peo[)le woidd leave.
4184i). In case of the enactnuuit of a i.reneral |)rohibitory law. do you think it
would be rij^ht to compensate brewers and distillers for loss of plant and machin(M'y .' —
Certaiidy.
418.")(). In case of the enact m(!nt of such a law as is sometimes su!,'<,'ested, a law prohibit-
ing; the manufacture, imi)ortiition and sale of alcoholic liquors for beverajxe jiiirposes, the
enfor(!ement of it would carry with it the ri^ht to search persons and houses throui,'liout
the country. From your cxi)ei-ieiu'e of the province, do you think such a law could be
carried out here '. Certainly not.
41851. You say you ha\(' lieen a l)anker .' Yes.
418r)2. Have you obsei'\-cd that the business interests of the comitrv have been
aftected in any way by the li(|uor trathe .' No, F do not think it atlccts them at all.
% AVr. Dr. MrLrnd:
418r).'5. Please explain what you meant when you saiil it would ruin the country? — •
It wtadd ruin it, for a jrood many of the i)opulation would not live in such a countrv.
A man who loves his liberty would not be dictated as to what he should eat and drink ;
I for one would not.
418r)4. .So your objection is to the principle it invohes.' Yes.
418")"). Are the customs taws well observed here ( I believe .so.
418")(). F)o you consider it ri^ht to search personal bai.'<;ajiC iinde', the presents
customs law '.- -I believt" so.
418.")7. There is search of person also ; Yes, and veiy object ional)le it is some-
times.
418.")8. l)o you l)elic\e it would Im» well tu repeal that feature of the law ? — I
certainly do.
418.")9. Would its repeal j)romote sinue;t,'linu' .' I do not think so. Suspicious
characters should lie sean-hcil, but to s(Mrch e\crybody is ridiculous.
418(')(). How is the law worked now '. \ sutlicicnt number of ollicers are emplovetl,
and they seem to enforce the law |iretty well. ,
418(51. Parliament sees fit tcj enact such a law and the people submit to it
with more or less grace, I suppose. Do you think they would not submit to a similar
re(juirement in tin; event of jirohibition ? — I am sure they wotdd not.
418()L'. Have you obserxcd whether the drink tratlic has an injurious etl'ect on the
community in any way I Not on this community at all events.
4I8();5. Neither upon individuals nor upon family lite, nor ujion business affairs ? -Of
course there are e.xceptional instances.
418G4. Are the cases exceptional, or is it the rule? Certainly it is exceptional
4186"). How long were you numager of the bank ] — For 19 years, but not all tlu;
time here. F was in California for 4 years.
605
Liquor Tratlic — British Columbia.
Kev. EBKNEZEIl 1{< >BSON, of New Westminster, on lifin;,' duly sworn, tleposed
■as follows : —
liij Jinhje MrDonald :
41866. With what church are you connected ?
church.
41867. How lonj{ have you resided in Hriti.sh Columbia?
wa.s absent durinf^ 1 2 years of that time.
I am a minister of the MethfHlist
-Nearly 34 years, but I
9 or 10 years altogether
41868. How long have you been in New Westminster ?-
^it different times,
41869. We have had placed before the Commissior *he deliverance of 3'our church
which was given in 1890, in Montreal, I think? — Yes.
41870. Do you individually concur in that deliverance ? — ^1 was a member of the
committee which prepared the deliverance, and voted for it.
41871. That is representative of your feeling on the question of prohibition? — Yes.
Bi/ Jiei\ Dr. Mr Lead :
418713. From having lived .so long in British Columbia, I suppose you know the
country pretty well? — Y<!s, a good j)art of it.
41873. Can you give us an idea ot the changes that have taken place in regard to
the sentiment about the li(juor traffic? — There has been a very decided change as to the
drinking habits. Of course the pcMiple who cam(! here in the early days did not care
what the people thought of them. I was among them, and while they were a very strong
and kindly sort of men tliey would indulge pretty freely in drinking liquor ; but now
there is more home life and social customs have greatly improved in regard to the use
of intoxicating liquors. Most of the people who come here now have been accustomed
to greater restrictions ; some having lived in prohibiUjr}' places, and they do not seem to
care to take litiuor.
41874. Have you been able from youi' experiences to c(mipare any two places, one
under enforced prohibition and the other under the license law ? — I resided in two places
in Ontario where there was local prohibition, one was in Dundas County and the other in
Northumberland County, and there was a Vietter state of things than ever existed
before ; and yet the law was violated to a cei'tain extent. I went east two
years ago and on my return spent three days in the North-west Territories. The only
case I can remember of any one having liquor was once at a gentlemans house, where
they had beer on the table.
41875. Do you know whether it was there by the (jovernors permit or not? — J am
quite certain that it was there by permit.
4187(). You have expressed yourself as being in favour of prohibition ; that is
prohibition as described by your Conference. In the event of such a law being passed,
do you think brewers and .distillers should be compensated for their loss of plant and
machinery rendered useless? — I do not think so. It would Im ~
them formal notice to wind up their business, as they spoke of doing in England
41877. How many years have you been a minister? — 36 years.
41878. During that time you have Cfmie into contact with families. Will you tell us
what your experience has been as to the effect the liquor habit and traffic have upon
domestic happiness, neglect of wives and of children and of religion, and as to crime
ifec. ? — The effect of my experience and observation has l)een such as to lead me to advise
every body to keep away from liquor and to never use it except as a medicine.
41879. Have you observed what the effect has been on those engaged in the trade?
— I suppose it has the worst effect.
41880. You mean it has worse effects on them than on the consumers ? — I think so,
because a man puts himself in a position where he helps men to go in the wrong direction,
and in this he does himself a very great injury, in my opinion.
right I tliiidc to give
Rev. Euenezer Hobson.
m
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
PATHTCK McTIEHNEN, ..f New Westminster, on heing .luly sworn, deposed ivs
follows : —
By Judge McDonald ;
41881. What is your occupation ? — 1 whs Indian Agent until within the last t't>w
years.
41882. Under the Dominion (Tovernment ? — Yes.
41883. How long have you been in British C(»lunil)ia? — Thirty-si.x years.
41884. How have you found the people as regaols sobriety and orderly conduct ? —
I have found them first class, except during otie or two years, dui'ing railwav con.sti'uc-
tiou in this province ; then it was terrible.
4188;"). What was terrible then !— The drunkenness and the fighting.
41886. I suppo.se a new class of people were coming in ? — Yes.
41887. Did the province put nf) restrictions on them ?- -No, they let them fight
away.
41888. There was no prohibitory law in force then 1 — No.
41889. There were a great many stiangers in the countrv at that time, 1 presumed
—Yes.
418"J0. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you believe a piohibitory
law could be effectually carried out, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and
sale of alcoholic lifjuors for beverage pui'poses / — -I never gavt^ that matter any study.
41891. Then yf)u are not in a position to say / — No, I am not.
41892. In the event of the enactment of such a law, would you deem it right that
brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery? — Of
course if it was taken away from them, why not '!
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
41893. How long were you Indian Agent? — Eleven ye^-.rs.
41894. The .sale and giving of li(iuor to Indians are prohibitt^d, I believe ? -Yes.
41895. Do they .sometimes get it?— They do.
4189(). Does li<]Uor have any bad effects on them ? — It has very l)ad effects on them.
41897. Of coui-.se it was your duty to see that they got none, if possible ?- Yes.
During those 11 years the work which the nussionaries and my.self did among them
changed them very much. Take a community of (iO or 70 Indians, and you will find
more dnnking Indians and drunken Indians among them than you will find among a
corres}>onding number of whites.
41898. Are they changed so as not to desire drink any longer T-Some will go ;i!iy
distance to get it, even to Washington Territory.
41899. But some of them are getting civilized, are they not '
take it on any account.
41900. You think it is a good thing to keep it away from them
Some would not
-I do.
i
'■■-'(■
607
Liquor Tratlic— British Coimnbia.
:\Ii(,s. MAIilANNK CIJNXINCJHAM, of New WestininstiT, ..ii \»-\n<; duly sw,.i n,
(leposi'd as follows :- -
Bi/ Jiulge McDiiiKihl :
H'.tOl. }low Kmi,' haw you lived in New WeHtuiinstcr ,'— Tliiity yi'iirs.
41!)()-. Did you come lnMo fi'fuu Olio of the other provinces;- I cunii- lien" tVinn
Ontai'io.
hi/ Jill'. Dr. McLend:
\\W.\. We understand that ynu are President of the Women's Ciiristiaii 'reiiiiier-
ani'e I'nion here ,'— Yes.
H!»01. How lonj; have you heen connecteil with tiie iniion ? — Ten years.
HiXJo. What branch i>f work does the union carry on iier'e ?- -We conduct service
in the jail here every Saljl)ath ; we conduct a mission and look aftei' the social evil.
41!)0tl. You do rescue woi'k, I presume l — Yes, and we have a home in N'icioria.
41'JU7. Speakinj,' of tlie rescue work, lio you find that the unfortunates who ask tor
help are addii'ted to the drink habit .' -Ttiey all are.
4lV>US. Do you find, in rei,'ard to your work i?i the jail, that a larj;i' perceTitaire
of the jirisoners are victims of the drink habit ,' I think they all are. I think it i~; the
one thinjj that drives them back to their bad habits as soon as they have i-efornied.
They fall in with their old coini)anions as soon as they ;j;et out of jail, and are liable to
return a<;ain.
41!)0l). As one living in this community for so many years and active in this work
and observant of what is ijoiiij; on, will you tell us brielly what are your oViservation-- of
the effects of tiie drink habit and the drink tratHc on the connnunity in regard to its
morals and its effect on domestic life and on young |)eople ? — J consider it is an unmiti-
gated evil everywhere. There is no home in wliich li((uor is used that is not worse for
the people using it. In a great many of the homes with which we ha\e to do there is
gi'eat want and misery caused by tlrink.
41910. Do you find tiiat most of the want andpo\erty with which you have to do
is traceable to drinking ? — Entirely , so. If it were not for drinking there woulrl be no
jmverty ami want, for tliere is plenty of work foi' every man in this country who honi;stly
desires it.
4191 1. Do you find the childrtMi brought up often become victims to drink owinu to
the drinking habits of the parents .' Yes, the tendency must be in that direction.
41912. What is the position of your oiganization on the question of prohibition .' —
We believe in pi-ohibition direct.
41913. Your Union has made a deliverance to thatett'ect 1 — Yes, we liave, associated
with our ert'orts in sending petitions to the Dominion Parliament.
41914. Do vou think the prohibition sentiment is growing in this conmiunit v '.' 1
think so.
4191-"). Have you or 3'our society obsei'vcd the working of the license law here,
whether it is satisfactory or otherwise? — I consider it is very unsatisfactory in a great
many ways.
419K). In what respects? — Because, as wa* observed a few moments ago, all the
licenses were granted a great many years ago, so that the licensees do iK)t consider the
feelings of the |)ublic at all. If these same licensees were compelled to obtain the
signatures of two-thirds of the lot owners and married women, they would not find it
possible to obtain them.
41917. So you understand that under the present license law, you lia\e no j)ower
at all over them 1 — No power over them whatever. 1 also consider that the liipioi' ti-ade
as such should be separated entirely from the hotel, that it should stand on its own
basis the same as any other legitimate business. If it is considered legal, it should stand
alone, and when a man goes there to drink he should go there to drink and shoulil not
be considered one of the guests of the hotel.
Mus. Mari.wne Cunningham.
608
\\
if
til
lii
lil
tl'Ulll
i
57 Victoria.
Seesional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
41918. Tliiit suggests the ((uestioii as Ixawecii saloon and liotcl : which do you
consider to i)e the more dangerous to the coininunitv f — 1 think the hotel is tlie nion-
dangerous.
4191'.». You have expressed yourself and also tlie feeling of your society in favour of
prohibition. Have you given thought as to the matter of granting compensation to
brewer and distillers in tiit^ event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law I -Yes ;
I have studied that matter. I think t lie trade has n<> more right to be compensated
than any other business.
Jii/ Judye McDonald :
41920. f think you said lliat there was not a home in iN'ew Westminster in which
liquor was used that some injui-y was not done l— Certainly, because people cannot use
li(|Ui , without wasting their money. It i pois<m and not a foo<l. With the money
people spend on liquor, they might do gotKl, ov at least spend it in a better way.
41921. Do you think you have any right t(» say in what way people shall spend
their money ? -1 do not think the pecpie have a rigjit to otter a biui example to their
neighbours, and thus injure the community.
41922. So you would lay down a law as to the way in which people should spend
their UKmey? — In the same way that a man has no right to injure his neighbour Ij
using poison of any kind.
'y
Tiie Coirnnission adjourned, Ut meet in Vancouver.
to
t : 1
^
>
21- .•i9=i=*
3
609
^,.
Liquor TialHc — Hiitish Coliiiubiu.
Tilt' Uoyal Ci)iiiniissi(iii dii llic riit|Uiii' Trullii! met lioir tliis dav.
J'ri'Sfuit :
.K'lxiio McDoNAi.n. 1{kv. I Mi. MrLi;or).
FHKD. CoPK, of Vancouver, on being duly sworn, deposed as follows ; —
Jii/ Jtidiji' McDonald ;
\\\yi',\. What is your business ?- -[ am a merchant, and 1 am also Mayor of
\'aiicouvei'.
4l!)"J4. How loim have you lesided in British Coknnbia / 1 came lien- tour years
ajio last September.
HUlT). Did you come here from one of tiii^ otiier proviiiiu's ( I came here from
Ontario,
nt*'_M>. Ki'om wiiat part ' -Krom Xorfoll;, in Simeoe County.
I1!)1'7. How Ion;; ha\(' you been Abiyor of tiiis city? — Tiiisis my first year ; I 1 uc
iieen Mayor since last January.
4l!tJ8. Are you elected as >biyor directly by tiie people ,' Yes.
H9L".>. Takin;^ the city as you find it, do you consider it an orderly and law-abidiny;
connnunity / — Yes, very imich so.
U!)30. Will it compare favourably with other cities with wliich vou are acquainted ]
-I think so.
41931. Y'oii base, 1 suppose, a very mixed population here and ditl'erent nationalities
are represented pretty well? — Y'es, very cosniujiolitan.
AVXVl. What is"tlie population ofthe city in round li^'ures (Over -JO.OUU.
Hil.">."5. What would be tlie pi'oportion in round ti;i,'ur(>s of the Chinese here / — I
think 1,001) would be i!orrect.
4iy;{4. I believe you have not many Indians in the city t— No ; they are on the
i'eserves,
41935, 1 suppose at certain seasons of th»! yeai' you have (piile a .seafaring popula-
tion here ? — We have all the year round ; there are alwavs (i or lt( vessels li<'re from
all parts of th(> woi'ltl.
411t."l(). Is the city constantly ijrowinj^ and increasin^j; ? Yes, very rajiidly. The
Couunissioners must have seen, in drivinj; around, the many new buil(lini,'s that aiv
going up. ^
41i(.'$7, Y'ou are under the license law of the pi'ovihce, I suppose ?■— Yes.
41!).3S. Are you a License Commissioner by virtue of your ottice '',- — Y^es,
4H);<!>. Are you Chairman of the Boai'd ! — Y'es,
4lil40, How do you tind the license law to work here? — I think it works all right.
41!)41. Do you remend)er how many licensed places thei'e are in the city? — o;") retail,
!S saloons, 0;? licenses, and there are some (J or 7 wholesale places. f
41942. WV have found in cities in British CJolunibia that there are licenses which
are said to be perpetual almost in their nature, so that men who held licens(!s before the
license law, or the new law, if they conduct themselvc^s properly, have merely to come
and pay their fee and nothing is said ? — That is not so in this city. They have to
))ossess certain qualifications, and the Tnspect'ir goes rouiul and sees that these are
carried out, ^j^
Fhed, Cope, ♦ : i.
610 ^
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ll!>4.'i. An- tlicit' no liotf'l or Miilunn l<fc|ii'is wIki In- viitut- i>t* liiivinjj Imtii in the
triuli' tor MO loii^', liHVc not to t'ultil iht' iiuiiiiicnii'iits of tlic liiw as ifyiinls itttcpiiytTH
.signing; tlicir iippliciilionH for licence ( I do not think h<i.
li'.'H. Iliivf you unv siicciiil liiw in this cilv that would ex 'nipt jM'o|iif from
|ii«senting ]M'titions signnd hy lot. owmus iin<i their wives ( Tlicrc is no'l'ing against it
in our cliarter.
U!>ir), Have you liiul any such politions Ijeforc you T — Not this year.
4194*). llavt! you a special charter hero f — Yes.
4li)47. Have you such charter from the Provincial Legislature/ -Yes.
4l'.)4H. You have power to make l>y-iasvs for tiie citv I Yes.
4I!>4!(. Do you think the Sunday closing law is well observed I -Yes.
41950. Have you reason to believe that there is unlicensed sale of li(|uor in this
city? — I have no reason to believe so.
41951. Is your (Jhinesf^ |)opulation a s(»ber one? Yes.
41952. l>o you know whether there is any sale made to Indians in the citv
.sometimes? ThertMnight be, but Ncry seldom.
4195.'}. When sales do occur, are they made by licensed dealers or by outsiders ', —
They are mostly made by outsiders, in fact I have not heard of a ca.se this year of a
licensed d(>aler .selling li(|Uor to an Indiaii.
41951. We understand that in this city you are making provision for the recreatio!"
of the people in the ilirection of |)t'oviding small parks for people and other improvi •
nients ? Yes.
41955. Are there othtu' places (»f recreation wlic'i'e the public can go without goinj',
to the parks? — The park is tlit! oidy place w(! have at jiresent. We an- making a park
in the east end, but we have just got started. The park we have at lirockion I'oint is
the only j)ark we have at present : it is the Standarcl I'ai'k.
4195(). Have you had any experience of u ])rohibitory law? — ^1 have.
41957. Did you have that exjierience in the C'ounty <.*' Norfolk >-— Yes. I was also
in a parish where the Dunkin Act was in force for oie year. Norfolk was under the Scott
Act for three years.
4195S. What was y(»ur experience of the Act .'—It was vt!iy un.satisfactory in those
counties.
41959. How was it under the Dunkin .Vet in the township f .Just the .same. I had
ont^ of the leading busines.ses in Simcoe, The Act did not .stop the .sale (»f li(|uor, in fact
T think it added to the number of places that .sold it. The people would not get it
openly, it was done on the sly.
419()0. Then the eflect was not foi' good? — No, it was not. .\t the i-nd of the
tio'ee years it was (lro|)ped.
41961. Have you had experience of prohibition in any other country ! No, that isall.
419t)2. Take British ("oluml)ia as you have known it, do you think it would be
practicable in this countiy? 1 could not say : but as regarrls the drinking habits of the
p(M)ple, I do n(tt think we are any worse than any other ]>eopl('.
419().'5. Take your country with it^ geographical positiofi anil \ast coast line, do
you believe you would be able to keep li(|Uor out, supposing a law wci'e enacted prohi-
biting the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic liijuors for beverage purposes?
— It would require a lot of policemen to keep li<[U()r out of the jirovince.
419()4. You understand that such a law wou'il carry with it the right of searching
both house and person in order to ascertain tiiat no li(]Uor was being smuggled in? — I
am judging New Westminstei' by the experience that I had of the .Scott Xvi. Liijuor
under that law came in in all shapes. The first week probablj half of the people did
not sell, but after that they sold, and more places stalled u|). The hotels were compelled to
raise their prices. One gentleman, who w;is a strong supporter of tlie Act when it came
in, was in a hotel and was charged 10 cents more for the meal than lie had paid the
preceding week. When he found that it was because of the Act, lie wanted it repealed.
Liquor, liowever, was sold all the same.
41905. Do you know anything as to tlie ([uality of tlie liquor ?— It was the same as
before ; 1 did not hear that there was any diti'eience.
1
21— 39|**
)
(Jll
Liquor Tiaftic — British Columbia.
41966. You ha \t! said that y'>ii •!<> n"t think the th'iiikiiii; iiahits ot' tlie pcopK"
exceed thos^ ')f jHM»ph' elsewheiv ? — Yes.
11967. Are all tlie chuirhes and tcnijx'rance organizations working on teni})ei'aiice
lines? — Yes, they are '.'a in excellent shape.
41908. Taking your population iiere as a whole, ai'e they people from t'ore.gn
I'ounti'ies? — No, thei'e are more people liei'e from the east ; this is a Canadi'iu city.
■U969. Are there any suggestions you could uft'er to the C mnnisslon, from your
frience, in the direction of amending the present license law? — I do not tliiidc so.
. xprriv...^v., ... .... ,...^. «. f, ■■■• I'--'' >'■■■■• • ■" ...V ..v..
We went into the matt(!r careAdly last spring, and maile such amendments as were
We have I '2 men.
necessary.
41970. How strong is yoni' municipal police force?
41971. And a chief constalile? Yt'.s, and a sergeant.
4197l'. Are tiiere any pi'ovincial police ln:re? — Yes. we ha\e one man.
Jii/ lirv. Dr. McLnd :
11973. We understand that N'ancouvei' is under the provisions of tiie license law ,'
— Wn have a s|)eeial cliarter, and we make a 'icen.se law of our own.
41974. Is tliei-e any way in wliicli the numbei- of liccises can he limited J —We have
")") licenses now, and we cannot ii.cri'ase the numher until thei'c is an increase in popula-
tion.
4197-'). Has the Board of t!onunissii>ncrs disci'ction in issuing licenses? — Yes, they
have that power.
41976. Dues the Ij'iard use discretion in isseing licenses to saloons ( "N'es, we ha\t'
ight at jMcsent and wc cannot have auKtlier mitil the population increases.
41977. Have you regulations in regard to closing after ceitain hours f Yes, they
close at 1 1 o'clock and on Sundays.
41978. At what liour do they close on Saturday?- -The same iiour.
41979. And open on Monday mor'ning at what hour ? — -At ti o'clock at one time,
hut 1 think the hour is •_' o'clock now.
41980. We noticed on the Island that the ord\ prohibition as to hours was from
•II on Saturday night until 1 o'clock on .Munday morniiiy. and the licensees could keeji
open all night on week ('ays :' Yes.
41981. Have yon, as a btisiness man, ol)ser\ed what is the effect that the litpior
tratlic has on trade interests and on the social con(htion of the ])eople? — 1 do i;ot kni>w
that it all'ecls us here tie same as anywhere else, because the business ukmi are too bu.sy
to drink nuuih.
41982. There would seem to lie a great deal of drinking in connection with bb
])lace8?— You would think so. Tiu'ic is iiowever atloating population always coming
her'e, arul they do the most of it. I thirdv it is as ([uiet hei-e on Siniday as in Toronto.
llil'^.'i. I5ut taking the (|uestioii in ;• ()i.„id v.;iy what do you think is the effect of
Is it good or- bad, beneficial
is not woi'se heri^ than anv-
the li(|Uor tiM.tlic on the business inte.csts of ,i conmiui.ity
or nijunous ;
where elpe.
1 should sav th;'! it is beneticial ; at leasi
liji Judif McDonnld : •
419S4. You have said that in Xoi'folk they had to increase the price of meals to
make u}) for tile loss of the bar, iind that when they did so, there was opposition? —
' iH'i-e was opposition raised at once by the vviy men wlio advocated the Scott Act.
1198.''). 1 n the event of the enactment of a geii' ral prohibitoi'v law, do you think
'lire biH'wers and distiller's should be c()m(ieiisate(l for loss of plant and machinery? — I
should say that in justice they should be compeiisMt(Ml.
ir
:iri
/
Khko. C'oi'k.
618
i.
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
law .'
THOMAS F. Mt'Cil'lUAN, of \'iiiif<iii\('r, on hciti^' duly >.woi-ii. dcj-ost'cl as
t'ollows : —
/)'// JiuUjf Mr DoiKild :
H'.KHC). What position do you occupy? I am ("ity (Jlcik of X'ancoiivci-.
I11IS7. You aic appointed hy tlic (^ity (/'ouncil, I siippos(!? Yes.
■tlUS>*. llo\\ loni; liaNcyou resided in l.ritisii I'oluuibia .' Ki,i;lit years.
'Mi)8'.». Jla\e you li\ed all tlu; time in N'ancouNcr? \n, T was jiart of the time in
the mountains, at Donald and Fairweli.
Ull'.tO. Did you come liere from one of the otiu'r |iro\ince.- .' h'lom the Norlh-westr
Territories, orii;inally frnni I'erth in Ontario. I have li\ed in the N'orlh-westTerritories
and Manitoba for' tliiee years.
■U'.MII, Do you tind this cuinminiiy a sohi •■ and law ahidini; one: ^'es.
I iO'.t^. Have you any duties to perform in connection wi;'. the license law .' No, I
iia\i' notiiin,;,' to do witli it.
I lll'.l.'i. You do not recei\f the license fei's .' The City Tteasur<'r ,1,'ets them.
41'.Mt|. .S])eakiii;;' as a citizen, do you ihinU the law works satisfaclorilv ' 1 think it
does so heie in comparison with other places.
-Hi)'.)'). Hav(^ you observed \\ hetlier the Sunday closinu law is obserM'd.' ft is
observod very strictly as fjii- as it i^oes ; the tow n is oideily (jti Sunday.
Hl)!)('). From your knowled<,'e of l.ritish Oohnnbia, do you think it would he
|)ractic,ibl(! to enfoi'ce a general prohibiiory law [ I do not believe it would.
H'.t'.IT. What would be the ditliculty .' My experieni'e of places where liipuir was
])rohibited was, that there was almost any aui.iunt on hand and it w.isof ihe cheapest
(|uality ; and further, that there was mor<' of it drunk than when there w as a license law .
ll'.l'.tS. Was it cheap to the buyei- .' It was of cheap (piality and hiiih |irice.
I limit. Was ',, pom' i|ualil \ '. — It was \ ei\' poor; most of tlie liijuoi- wa> mixed with
water.
Il'OOU. 'I'hal was your e.vperience ? ^'es, in the Norlh-wesl Teiiitories, and also in
the mountains, whei'c liipior was brounhl. arid where no licenses were I^suimI duT-in^ lail
way const ruction.
ll'OOl. On what part of the road .' .Vl Donald and also at Lay;L;an.
t20()-_'. Was li(pior prohibited unde ■ the I'ublh- Works Act .' S'es.
4200."{. Was li(jUor biouLiht in ( ^'es. it was brouyhl in b\ diU'erenl means from
the south
|l."'l)J. V 'ere eflort> maile to stop it .' The police were on the watch the whole
time, liut couiii not previ'ut it connnjx into the country.
12v)Ur). Was the (pialily of Ihe liquor brouuht o\cr the mouniains of the jioor cpial
ity of whi"h you ha\e s|)oken '. ^'es ; as a rule.
420U(i. Was any ellbrt at concealment made in ifj^ard to biiiininj; it in '. (Jeiierallv
it was br'ouifht in under coxer of ni;,dit and by the most unfieipienled paths.
I'JOOT. Was it concealed in packai^es containinu other ^oods ! In buttei ke^s and
all thai sort of tliint;. D is also brouiiln in in the shajie of Uibles, etc.
4L't)0S. Of what material were the vessels made ' ( If I in.
iL'OOi*. You mean the\ wer'e \»'ssels made to look like iJiblcs ' ^'es
4"_'0I0. You say that a sindlar state of thinifs |)re\ailed in the mountains '. \ v^.
Il'OI I. Was the lii]uor brouitht in from the I 'nited States, or froni partsof Canada,
or from both.' i>iipioi' that came into the Xorth-wesi Teriitories i,'eneially came from
WiniM|)e<r but some came from the south. If you resided out a certain distance, liipior
came fiom Foi't Macleod.
12012. The reiiiai'k you made in rt'i;ai<l to brinuini; in iiip'.o'' applied, I suppose, to
brill nil! IX in li<|Uoi- that came by railway or b, w .■i\' <if I he mountains; Yi's ; by both r'outes.
rj(ll."i. So, from your experience and knowledu'e of this coinili'V, you believe a pro
hibilory law woidd be impracticable '. It would be ,i failure and could not be erd'oi-ced.
■1-201 I. In ca.se of Ihe enactment of a ^'eneral prohibitory law. would you ileem il
riyht that brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant and machinery .'
--I think so, if ,he\' \, re cut ofV short.
G13
1
;.iL
'■' ■ Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
Ihj ^.er. Dr. Mi-Li'i'd:
4201"). Do }'i)u tliink tlu'i-e was more (li'iiikiii;; in thi! Nnrth-wcst T<'rriti)rit's iindfii-
prohibition iliaii tlioro was undor a liwiisi' law '. -Then' seemed ti) he more desire to
get liijuor than there has been in VaicouvM-, where li(|uor is free to everybody.
Every oni seemed to be on tlie lookout for soim? way of getting it in secretly.
4:20 1(). We have had it in e\ideiu'(; in the North-west Territories, and 1 tliink in
the mountains also, from oHieials and authorities, that iirohibition under the Pul)lic
Works Act during eonstrut'tion days brought about a very exeellent state of things and
prevented a great many disordeis that wi>uld otherwise have arisen '. \ liad experience
ill that country, and I found that th(Te was any ijuantity of li(|Uoi' consumed.
42017. Speaking about liquor lieing brought in in the shap(! of IJibles: was that
general ! — It was not general, but it was brougiit in in that way.
42018. Was there a great deal of disorder amung workin'jiiien during tlu; con-
struction period ?- Certainly not.
4201!). Tlien order was ij'ii'.y well maintained ?-- Yes.
42020. It was only in the to'iis where li(|Uor was sold as a rule, not wlierethemeu
Were working : they would have to come to the towns in nrder to get li(|Uor ? Yes.
42021. ])id the men'drink sufficient liipio • to cause them to neglect their work ? —
There were individual cases of that.
42022. Speaking al)out li<iuor in N'ancouvei', do you tliink the number of licenses
might be reduced here with advantage .'—I think so, for there are too many.
4202.'}. You mean there are too main for the size of the town (-Yes.
/
\lf,
(>EOR(!E .V. .I0R1).V\, of N'anciijver, on beingduly swoin, deposed as follows ; —
Hj Judge, McDmudd :
42024. What po.sition do you occupy f- lam T'olice Magistrate for the city.
42025. Are you also a .lustice of the Peace? For the disti'ict.
4202(). How long have you resided in British C'oiumbia ^ -Nearly four yoais, at
all events over three and a half years.
42027. Did you comt^ here from one of the other pioviucesf I'luiii the town of
Lindsay, Ontario.
4202S. Are you a banister? I am not a barrister in this province.
42021). Voiir appointment comes from what authority? I'rom the Pio\iiKial
Government on the recommendation of the City t!!ouncil. Formerly the apjiointinent was
made liy tlie City Council, liut the proxinci- took over tlie ap]iointment of Police ^lagis
trates last year.
420.'i0. Do you lind this coiniinmity to be a sober and law-abiding one? 1 do.
genei'ally speaking.
420."il. How does this eommuiiity compare with coiniininii. i-jist ? it compareN
most favourably.
120.'52. T mean with similar communities in eastern Canada ? Yes.
420.'}."!. I sujipose you found a ditlerent iiopulatioii here? Yes; we lia\e a \ery
cosmopolitan jiopulation here.
420.'5I. I[a\e you many seafaring men hvre; Y'es, (|uite a iiumbor /
420i'}ri. You have also ([uite a Chinese population, 1 suppose? Y(!s.
420;}f). Have thei'e l)een many ca.ses of drunkenness among them !- -No, 1 do not
think there has l)t>en any case of drunkenness liefore me on the jiart of the t^hinese. not.
that I remember.
420.37. I^ocs the annual report of the police authorities show the number of cases
coming before your Court and tlie number of otlences ? —There are also monthly imports
mafic up by the Clerk of tlie Court.
Thomas F. McCrnJ.w.
614
%
i
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
(-•(111-
4'20.'iS. Taking tlii' iiuiiiljer of ca.sps th.it come betoro you as a wlmle, wliat pro-
j>ortion of the cases would he oases of (h-unkenness? — I sliould think the pidiinitinn
would lun fi'oiii no to 7") per cent, say ()0 j)er cent.
I'iU.'U). Of the cases outside of those charged witli diunkenncss, what per cent of
the cases wnuld he indirectly due to it .' I refef to cases ut' disorders ,inil assaults, iS:c. ^
— There are a good many due dir(>ctly. hut I could not give a percenlage uf those due
indirectly to it ; there are a good many due in that way.
42040. Are you a Licei.se Conunissioner ? — No, I am not.
12011. Speaking as a citi/;-M, how do yon find the license law to work here ' X'eiv
will, 1 think. 1 ha\e had one or two cases of \iolation since 1 came on the IJeiuli, hiii
they were with respect to tiie Sunday Chjsing Act.
42042. Where those latterly oi' on the inct^ption of t!ic law.' .\i almut tin-
ince])tion of the law t)r a little later.
4201.'3. Have you I'cason to l)elieve that ther-' Is unlicens •(! sale in tiiis citv ?
There ha\e heen no cases before us. ( )f course there might bt ome tii.it I do not
know of.
4204 b You have had no prosecutions before you ? No.
4204."). We under.stand that your ])olice force consists of 1 1 men .' Yes.
I201r0. Do you consider that is sullicient for the work they liaxciodo' llar<ll\
sutlii'ient.
42047. That force for a city of 20,000 is very small .' It is not sutlicieni,
4204t<. \'"ou rc(|uire some men for patrol duty, I suppose /-—Y'^es, because at times
there are more ships than at other times, and of course the population is tloating.
4204!!. Then you are working your men hard? -Yes.
12050. Are the police su])posed to look aftc?' br'eaclies of the license law .' Thcv
are su]i]>osed to do so.
420r)l. If breaches of the license law occur, are they su|iposed to infoiiii the
Inspector/ Yes. T do not know whether that is on the orders or not.
120.'')2. Have you had any experience of a prohibitoiy law in any country .' \o. 1
was in till' (.'ounty of N'ictoria when the Scott .\ct was in f.tri'c.
l.'O");). How did it prohibit there.' Very poorly.
42054. What was the tiouble .' Th.cre was as much lii|nor drunk as w hen tiici !■
was no ]iroi)ibitory law i'.i force.
12t)ri."). Was there any sale of li(|uor? \''es, nearly ail the hotels sold ;iud many
other places which had nevi'r sold before.
I20")(i. How long was that Act in force .' About three or four years.
42O07. Was it repeali'd at the enil of the term and at the tirst oppoit unity t he
the people had? -Y'^e.s, it was repealed.
4205s. Taking Hritish Columbia as you know itanil considering its position and its
population, do you beliexc that a general |irohibitory law could be pi'aciically enforced
h(.'re / I do not think it would In- practicable to enforce prohibition ; I do not think it
could be doiu'.
42059. What ditliculties would be in tlw way here ? Intlielir-t place, wc.iri'too
near the l)oundary. There are a great many \essels coming in and out of the couhtiy
also, and the country is so laige, I thiid< there would be a lot of illicit stills establisheil
all over the country, and it \vould re(piire a largi' force of men to look after such a law.
42(M(0. You understand that what is meant by proliiliit ion i-^ the ]irohibition of the
manufacture, importation anil sale of alcoholic liipiors for beverage purposes, \\hich
would be accompanied \)y the right to search |)ersons and houses? ^'es, that is what 1
'thought of as pr<ihibition, and I do not thiid< it would be possible to I'nforce tnat la>\.
4201)1. |)o you think in the event of the adoption tif a geiicr.il prohibitory law .
brewers and distillei's shoidd be compensated for loss of plant and iiuichintMy .' I do,
ceilainly. They are carrvingon a legitimate business.
s^ A'// A'''-. Pr. MrL,;„l .
420ti2. ("ould you fiirni-'h the Commission with youi' coint reiMird .' I could.
42<lt).'f. I think you saiil that from 50 to 75 pei- cent of the names (oming l>eforc
vou weic for drunkenness puri' and simple.' Yes.
615
i^
liiquor Traffic — British Columbia.
42004, I suppose youi- nicii flu not iiiTcst iiuiii wlio are drunk it' j;oiui;' Iiouk-
p<'^'.ccably ? — I do not think they are exempt tVom arrest, beuause tlie terms of the Statute
must he complied with.
t'iOd"). But you liave no powei- to impose ]ieiialties upon them for sim[)h^ drun-
kenness ! — No, I liave no such jxiwer.
42060. Of the other eases eominu' Ijefore you, what percentage wi.uld he due
indirectly to the liipior traffic aiul habit '. - I .sliould think l)etween iOand lo per cent. I
have not, liowever, calculated that, hut merely estimated it.
420(57. Has there been an increase or decrease in the numi>cr of offences coupled
«ith inebriety during your term of office ? — \ think if anytiiing ther:! has been a decrease,
or the number' stands nearly the same.
42008. You spoke about the order and sobriety of VanciuNer as eom[iared wit h
other coninninities. To what other coinnninities did vou refer .' I referred to lonnnu-
nities in tlii^ east.
12000. Did you mean cities and towns ' Yes.
12070. Say Toronto .' -Yes.
12071. You have said thatothcially you lia\c no kno\\'.'dge(.f any ili'-it salegoingon
ill this city ( As a citizen, have you reason to believe tliere is any going on '. — Yes, I have.
42072. Have you reason to beliexc there is illicit sale by licensees, sales during
I inhibited hours '! - Such I'ases have not come within my kiiowledife.
I207.'i. You have spoken about the Scott Act having been in force in Ontario. T"
what do yt>u attribute the weak enforcement of the law .' 1 think the authorities did
all they coidd, but there seemed to be something against the law. The hotels sold and
some of the parties were fined and imprisoned, and some peoj)le who had lu'vei' solrj
before sold then, and they would start tip little places in one way and anuther.
42074. Do you think the prohibition of the diink trade in thise places increased
the drinking? — I think pe )ple wanted to drink more.
12075. In sfieaking of the im|iracticabili*\- of prohiliiting the li(|Uor sale in P>ritish
Columbia, you mentioned the boundary line. I^ yoiu' \iew of the im|)racticability based
upon your knowledge of attem))ts made to enforce a jirohibilory law in other piai'cs, or
your knowledge of this country '. iJoth. The country is such that it is xcry easy to
lutho-
aw, it is very
)e broughf in
■juuiggle, and we are aware that smuggling of opium goes on.
and although thi
rities on the otht i' side of the line are also endeaxouiing to enforce the
difficult to stop the traffic. 1 do not see why alcoholic liipior cou d not
Yes, 1 beliexe so
)]iium connr.g
in ( Xo, Tdo
the same as opium is brought in to-day
42070. ()[)iuin snniggling is successftilly carried on. J beliext
42077. Of course th(M-e are seizures made ! (,(uite freipientl}'.
42078. Do you think it wculd i)e well to repeal ^he law prohil)iting
in, and pass a law to allow it to come in, and so avoid ha\ ing it smuggl<'(
not thiidc it would be well to allow ojiimn to come in freely.
42079. What notice do you think it would be well to give brewers and distilleis in
the event of the enactment of a general prohibitory law for Canada ? It would be very
difficult to judge in regard to that matter, because some nf the peo]iIe in the trade might
have a very much larger stock to dispose of.
120S0. So you refei' to machinery and plant .' I ((juld hardly say. Not being in
the business, f could not name the terms.
12081. You think that at all events some notice should be given them? Y'es.
42082. Do you think that bi'ewers and distilli'rs carry on business only from year
to year. Does not that put the matter on a dift'erent footing from other businesses, and
should they iuive sfiecial advantages granted them .' Not more than other businesses.
4208;?. Fs it not a fact that a change in the larifV sometimes causes loss to people
in difl'erent businesses or trades t — Y'es.
42084. Have they not a right to receive compensation f - They cannot all get, com-
pensation very well. I do not belie\e they could be compensated.
Bji Jiuhir Mrl),inald : . 'f
4208"). Tn the case of the tariff law, you understand that legislation is indirect aiui
is not levied at individuals^ It is not levied at individuals.
(tKOHOK ^\. ■Ioiii).\N. *
(
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4:iOH(). Do yiiu not I'oiisidci' tlial; Ijrs'wiiiLf .v.ul distilling jiro en h (lilFt'icnt t'ooiiii!,'
iVom other bu.siiicsses, and tliat thcfcfort' the hreweis and distillers should n-ceivi' com-
pensation 1 — Yes.
42087. You iii'e doubtless awai-c that tlie hrewiM's and distillers aic ie(|uii-ed to put
in speiial machinery whenever the law dem inds it, and distillers are further rei|uireil to
keep tlieir li((Uor in stock for two years for- reititication purposes '. 1 aui aware of that
fact.
42088. In the case of opium, is opium adinissihie after duly has heen paid ?--
CVi'tainly ; it is a case of revenue in rcyard to opium.
^20S'j. l?ut it is not allowed to i;o into the United Slates .' .\o.
420i>0. Not for medicinal puri)oso-i !- -Yes, hut no! for smokiiiu.
420'Jl. In tiiis counti'y it is allowed ! -Yes, the duty is collecte(i.
42092. In regard t > the number of persons brouf;lit before you charged with drun
konness : is the percentaifc of outsiders the larger ? ^'es.
420'.)."). Is the jar,ii;e proportion composed of wiiat is ealied llic' ■' lloat iiii; popula
tion "'? -Ye.s, I lhiid< so: I had four before me this in irning, and all \icre oiitsitiers.
42094. They were picked U|( by the jxilice? Ves : they came in on tli ■ ships.
4209."). Taking the people as you know them, is the perceiitai;e of those who use
li(pior immoderately larger than those who use ii moilcratcly .' I thinl': the larger juo
portion would be those who use it moderately.
12091). Doesaiu' large ])<'rcentag!' of those who use iJcoholic li(p;ors, use ili(>in lo
excess? -I think th(> percentage is a very small one.
42097. You have spoken of what you saw in Victoria County. What is the effect
on the coininunity of having a law on ihe statute-book thai is persistently and llagranlly
\iolatt>d .' The community fails to res|)ect the law, and the effect is not good.
1^2098. Do you tliink such a law has an educational eU'erl .' Not if it fails in be
enforced f
12099. You think the otlicials did their duty in N'ictoiia. H.ul they the sentiment
of the community behind them to aid them in enforcing the law ; weic I hey ba<'ked u|i
by public opinion in doing so .' — Pretty well.
42100. Why, then, was not the law successful .' I do not know.
42101. H;id it a large backing of imblie opinion .' I do not think >o.
42102. Taking the entire poj)ulatioii, did you Hnd any number of jieople who
suj)ported prohiliition as a sentiment, yet who did not take any p.irl in looking after it
or helping along its enforcement .' —Certainly : there were a nuniln'i- of such ]ieop!e.
By Ker. I>r. Mr].<',>,l
4210:i. When a law is n it <Miforce(l, whose fault is it '. The fault of llie otlicials, 1
suppose.
\^
.lAMKS Mcb.VKKN, CMiief Constable rif \'aiicou\ei. cm beinmluly suoin. deposer!
as follows :
Jill Jiidf/i' Mrl>i>naJil :
42104. How long have you resided in lb itish Columbia .' I li.t\e resiiieil in \ an
comer since the spring of 1880.
4210"). Have you resided an\ where else in Ibitish Cohnnbia ' I resided 2 year's in
Victoria before th.at.
42100. Did you come from one of the ot her pi-o\inces; I .aiiie lieie from ManHoba,
ijKtani) is jjiy nai-ive province.
^4'J'Un. In what county did you live in <»ntaiio.' In banark.
i'lKjy. Have you anything io do in regard to the working of the license law. and
in regai'd to seeing that its pio\isions are carried out? Yes, exeiything comes under
mv notice, and of course the Licen.se I nspe<ior ;ind I work toi;etlier in this matter.
(ilT
Liquor Traffic — liiitish Columbia.
i
U
'I'lif iiliscrvancc ot' tlio
t\M) ciistvs lit' \iolatioii
42luy. Dues the sjiiiii? iciiDiik Jipply t(» the Liwnse liispfi-ttir as it does in your
case I -It is the official's duty to report to me it' he sees anything,' f,'oing on out of tlie way.
t'Jl fO. Do you look iiptin this work as a part of the duty of the numicipal police
as i'ej;ai-(ls carrying out the law .' Yes.
llilll. How do you find the license law work here ,' Very well.
4l'11l'. So far as your observation ;,'oes does the license law appeal- to be lived up
to by the licen.sees ? — 80 far as I can .see, the licen.sees appear to live up to the retpiire-
ments of the hiw.
1"_'1K5. How ab;)ut the oliser\aiice of the Sunday law,'
Sunday law is \fry well maintained.
IL'IH. We were told that when the law came in one or'
occurred '. Yes, we had one or two cmnictions at first.
fill."). Did lliey seem to have tli" effect of stop])ihL; violations of the law? — Yes.
Of course it is a very hard niattei- foi' a police otiicer to i;d into any of those places in
order to watch the )iarties. They know the police otiicer as schih as they sec him, and
especially if it happens to be durinj; piohiljitcd hours.
I'JllC). Have you any pr" >)n uncier your charter' that r'e(pni'es a bar-iooni itself
U> be ilosed during,' prohibitc. urs on Sunday .' No. I'riiler the law a man can have
all the lij^hts he wants 11 I lie bai' I'ooiii duririii pi'oliiliited hour's, in fact ! believe he is
I'ompelled to have llii' bights on.
ll'llT. Is lire bar'-i'oom siijiposed to be locked up ' Y'^es.
fl'l is. Then people may not resort there t'oi" the purpo.se of sale ! it is all right
so long as the bar is closed. Some of tlie houses have screens for' the liars. There are,
of eour.se, houses wher-e thei'c ai'e no sitting I'ooms aird no place in which to sit except
the bai'-rooiu.
I'illlt. Then the bai'-i'oom nr;iv lemaiii open for jieople to sil in .' Y'^es : the front
doors arv looked, but in the country the peo])le lia\i' often a stcisc in tlie bar-room and
they sit tfiere.
42120. The guests sit ther-e, I suppose .' - Yes.
f21'_M. Does that i-emark a]i]ily to saloons .' No. they are supposed to beclosed uji.
fLMlil*. The bat' in ever'y case is supposed to be closed '. Yes.
iL'l'J.'i Then in the winter time the guests and the family sometimes sil in the liai-
rtiom of an h<itel .' There are one or two places of that kind in the town.
■421 '-'4. W'e understand that there are certain pr'ohibited hours dur'ing the night on
week days and at other' times when liquor' cannot be sold f The law corrtains ci'rtain
jirohibitor'V prosisioirs as legar'ds the hours fronr Saturday night to Monday nrorriing,
but week nights are not included, Thi' law says that there shall be no sale betweeri 1 I
o'clock Sattii'dav night and 1 o'clock .Monday morning.
4212"). Have you heard any complaints made as to the (iir.-dity of the liiiuoi sold in
those places and as to whether' the litjuor is adulterated ,' 1 have not.
42120. Then no complaints huxo come to you iir r'cgar'd to that matter f No.
42127. T;ike the city as you have found it and your knowledge of otJier cities and
towns, how do you find it compare with other jilaces of siniiliir' size as r'egards or'ilerly
and .sober conduct on the part of the people ? ft compaies favourably with any other
place in which 1 ha\e lived.
421 2S. Take the casesof diunkeirness and disor'deily condtict with which you have
to deal : is the large proportion ilue to visitors an<l to the tlo.rting population ,' .Most
of them are due to the floating population.
4212!'. Have you had any experience in regard to a prohibitory law ? — No.
421.'}0, Dill you live in Lairark befor'e the Scott .Vet was adoi)ted i T was home
once since I left, and it is Ki yeais :;ince I left home in the first instance. They had
the Scott .\ct in force there at the time | went down, but I did not remain long enough
among the peojile to find out how it worked. There were parties who comjilained then,
and said that there wiis more drunkonness among the people than formerly, and tliat
)ieople vvanted liipior' who nevr wanted it when they could go and buy it.
421.1!. lianark N'illage is a ver'y ii'der'ly place, I believe; Yes, it is
place, but tiie Jieople site very or'diM'ly I her'e.
Javi!':.s McLakf.m.
618
a \ery amal)
I
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
421.'{l'. From youi' kiuiwlwlge of 15ritisli C'oluinhia, (ioyt'u l»t'lii'\(' a iniiliihitoiv law
could be praotioally enf(jrcetl and carried out? -[ do nf)t.
4'2i;<:). What would be the dithcultv niet with ? There is a «jreat eliaiice of siuuj;-
gling II) this country by water and by the mountains, and a j)rohil)itory law would be
\ery hard to enforce.
42131. Do you know the extent of the boundai-y Hue betw(>(Mi the U lited States
and Canada? —No, 1 do not.
421.'i5. In ease of the enactment of a ;,feneral i>roliibitory law, a law to proiiibit the
manufacture, importation an<l sale of alcoholic liijuors for Ijeverai^e ))urposes, do ymi
think it would be right that brewer.s and distillers should be compensated foi' loss of
plant and uiachinery rendered useless? It would be (juite a hardship for a man haxini;
a large plant to ha\'e his business shut up.
421.'<tj. Such a prohibitory law would, of e<iuroe, carry with it the right of seanli
both of person and house. Do you think the p(iople of V'ancou\'er woulil be wMliing to
allow such a law to be carried out? — No, I do not think .so; we would have even more
trouble than to-day. Of course it must bo remeud)ered that we have only a small force
of 1 1 men.
421. '!7. Could you form an i^stimate as to the force that would be rei|uir''il in
British Cohnnbia to carry out such a law '. I could not.
Ji)/ Her. Dr. McLmd :
421ISS. Is it the duty of the police to watch the licensees to see whether they srli
after hours or not? -No. Ti.ei'e is a pro\ision in our police rules prohibiting polji'einen
while on duty from entering saloons.
421.31). 8o they cannot go into the saloons unless they are sent there? — No. If ,i
jiolice otticer is found in a saloon wliile on duty, he is liable to be susjiended.
42140. What is the ])uipose of that rule? 1 lielieve it was thouglit bettei' in the
first plaee to have certain restrictions on the uuMi, and in this way ])i'event any ottlci'r
from drinking.
' 42141. Are they considered to be better policemen if they do not drink .' l'frha|is
that is the idea, to a certain e.xtent.
42142. Would it be thought a wrong act if a police otiicer was in llie habit of going
into a saloon ; in youi' o[)inion would it affect him as regai'ils discharging his duty .'
iSome otHcei's, if they had that pr'i\ilege, would abuse it. The jiolice otiicer, if in the
hal)it of drinking, can obtain all the liquor he wishes, and it will cost him tiothing.
E\-eryl)ody coming along wishes an ollieer to drink, and he meets so many he js being
constantly asked.
42l4.'i. 1 suppose the saloon keeper and the hotel-keeper or the pi'oprietor of the
hotel would be against olHcrs drinkint; .' 1 could not s.iy th.U in regard to hotel oi'
saloon-keepers.
42144. Still the Police Commissioners thought it woulil l)e better to pioiiiliit olhcrr.-;
going into bars while on duty .' That is our rule.
42145. Is it the duty of the otilcers to make complaints' \'e^. if thc\ think the
place is selling after hours. [f they lind the place is ilis<ir(lcily oi- anything improj)er is
going on, they rejiort to nie.
421 4('. And you woidd lay a charge .igainst the licensee ,'--Yes.
42147. \\'hen the Sunday law came into force there were a few \iolaiions of it. u e
understand ? We had two or three ; F could not tell yon, from meinoiy, the nuii.ber.
42148. But tiu^ parties w(>re proseeuleti .' Yes.
-*»«<Sj^ 42149. Do you think the effect of eiifoiving the law is to educate the law breakers.'
- For a time it might. Some violate the Uw while others live up to it.
I2ir)0. I)id we understand voa to ,sny that there was no illicit sale of lii|UMi' here
by i)eople not licensed? I could in>t say tliat.
121.')l. Do you think there is sfnue illicit sale? -There may be.
421 ."jlj. Have you reason to Oelieve there is sale by jiersons not licen^od f Tlic
only place, although I have never seen it. would be in the sporting: hou.'s*^ it' there is
litjuor sold in tluit way.
421").'!, Are sportin.ii houses, houses of ill-fame ' Yes.
619
\A ,U
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
4l'l")4. You mid sueli liuuses sornt'tinies ? We mid llifiii occasioiwdly-
4-L")5. Do you find li([iior tlici'c ! I nevt-i' ioolted for li(|Uor.
4l.'15(). It is ol)Sfr\t'(l, iiowfvor, that tiicrr is lic|iior in tiiosc piju'cs ,' -It is gener-
ally iindt^rstood tiiat there is lii|uor in them.
Ilil;")?. Ai'c tiiere many sucii places in this citv.' Quhf n t'i'\\.
A-2l')H. Tiiey are not liVenseil .' -No.
4"_'ir)i), How many would there he in round figures; I'O. l'"), ;!() or 40? T think I
might safely put the number at 17 oi- IH.
fL'lliO. l)o you think you iiave a sufheitrnt police force for the si/.e of this town? —
It is a small force, the city is scattered and the force is a small one considering the
ground we ha\e to cover. The men work aliout 10 hours a day.
iL'ltil. Of the arrests your men have to make, w iiat jiroportiou of them are for
(h'unkenness .' 1 should say 25 ])er cent.
4w'16:i. Of the other 75 i)er cent, what pr.iportion of them arc traceable to the
drink haliit and the drink traffic.' i am oidy sj)cakirig fi'om memory, but I should say
■_'•") ]ier cent are due not to (buidccnness altogether, but are cases m which drunkenness
was au element.
4l'l()i?. Of a.ssaults, are any of them .due to the drink shops and drink habit? —
.Some of them are, most of them are. We do not have any troul)!e in the licensed hou.ses
however, l)Ut the people come out on tiie streets.
4l'1()4. Do you think there has been a deci'case or- inciease in di.sorth-rly conduct .'
— T think our police records show not very much increase during the last two or' thi'ee
years. I think the nurttber' has probaljly iirci-eased, taking a rrrrnrbcr of years, bitt the
towir has Ijeen gr'owing all the tirire.
4'_'1().'). What is the r'lrle irr regard to your' rrieir making arrests. If a man isdr'unk
but gditrg (|ui(!tly Ironre, ilo you ar'r'cst Irirrr or' leave him aloire .' My oi'ders to rrry men
ai-e tirat if a inarr is simjily dr'unk aird is ipriet, and he is going hoirre, to leave him alone.
1'liose are my or'ders.
421 60. Then if a nrari is dr'unk and disorderly aird irrcapid)le and cannot go home,
you r'un him in .' Yes, in or-der' to protect him.
+ 2107. Are ther'e trraity rrten who ar'c so intoxicate'd that you ar'c (obliged ti) take
tlierrr iir ; ar'e there rttarry who cr'eate disturbance arrd whorrr yotr ar'e comj)ellecI necessar'ily
to ar-r'cst '. Xo, I do not kiujw about that. Of course you will .say that a citizen going
Irorrre pr'etty full is creatirrg a ilistur'l)ance ; but it is pretty Irar'd to say whether- that
nran had a coupU; of driirks of hot Scotch iir him or' not.
4lM0)^. Something has happerred to hirir. 1 suppose? —He might feel good and V)e
elated.
42100. |)()you lirrd marry of those cases? Not rrrany.
12170. Do yort find so rrrany that they are arrested for' cr'eating disturbarrces?--
Thosi^ cases do not corrte so rrttrch rrnder- our' notice as cases of rrreri ereatiirg regular dis-
turljances.
r
■Ia.mks M('LAi!r:N
620
i
.f'
. (
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
r
M UH DO(^K G. McLE< )I1, of Vancouver, on being duly s\v( n n. deposed us follows ; —
liij Jitdyp McDonald :
42171. What piKsitioii do you occupy ? — I iiiii License Tnspector, also .lailer, and
also Clei'k of the Police Court.
i'2l7'2. Is there a city lock-uj) f- -Yes.
4217.'i. How long have you resi<led in Ih-itisli ("ohiinhia f-- Four years last Scp-
teniher.
42174. UaN'e you ri'sided all that time in \'aiicou\er .'- Yes.
42175. I )id yt)U come here from one of the other jirovinces originally.' ^'es, frmn
tho County of Uruce, Ontario.
4217(1. Do you tintl this community to he a sober and law-abiding one and lo inm
pare favouiably with others in which you have lived? 1 think it compares \ery
favourably. i
12177. How long ha\»'you been License Inspector? — Since 22n(l of last Maicli.
42171^. How long have yon been Keeper of the .Jail; Since 17tli February, 1891.
4217!). How long have you been Clerk of tiie Police Court? i think since lasi
.) une.
421S0. W'eunderstand that the Clerk of the Police Court makes up montlilv returns
of the cases ti'ied '. Yes.
42181. As License Inspector, what are the duties ? To see that licenses are properly
issued and that licen.sees propei'ly obser\e the law. I think those are my duties.
42182. Do you examine |)reinises to see tliat proper accommodation is pro\i(li(l for
travellers? — Yes.
^21S.S. How often is that e.xannnatlon made? 1 have only made it oni'e.
42184. Do we understand that you will now makc^ it excry two years? I intend
to make it at the e.Kpiration of the term for which the license fees have been paid, and
that is before ;iOth Sejjtember.
42185. How long do tiie licenses run .' Really a year, l)Ut generally half a year.
42186. Have you had any new li<-enses issued since you came into othce? AN'e
have had some new ones issued.
42187. We undei'stand that undei' your charter it is necessary for an a|)plicant to
have a petition signed by a certain nund)er of a certain class of voters? f think so.
42188. is it vour duty to see to tlu; carrying out of the Sunday jiroxisions ot' the
law?— Yes.
421 8!t. How is that Sunday law observed '. i'airly well.
421!)0. Latterly there have been no charges made ? No char'jes have been m.ide
for some time.
421!)1. Have there been no cases sent to the Inspector to prosecute .'
42192. Wei'e those ca.ses when the law tir.st came into force? Yes.
4219.S. Ditl you secure convictions '. Y'es.
421 !t4. Since then you have not. had any i)rosecutions? No.
42195. Have you rea.son to believe that there is unlicensed sale in the city? There
may be in houses of prostitution.
4219t). Have you had any exjx'rience of a |>rohibitory law ! ^'es, during the pin-
hibition ])eriod in I'ruee.
42197. How long w<'re you there during that period ; .Most of the time.
42198. How did the law work?- A man who wanted li(|Uur could get as mticli
undi'r prohibitio!! as he could get under a license law.
42199. So licpior was for sale? Yes, in open b;ir rooms in our village.
42200. What village was that >. Riphn-.
42201. Are vou able to say, from your ov\ii knowledge of the country, that liipior
was .sold in as many ))laces under the Scott Act as it was sold under the License Act? —
I could not say, but t think you will tind it was sokl in more j)lace.-i.
42202. Do you know how long that continued ? 1 think during the full period.
4220;i When the opl)ortuiuty was offtu'ed to the people, was the Act renewed or
repealed ?- The Act was repealed.
* 621
Thr(
^
Liquor Traffic — British C'oIuiul>ia.
'51
y
I
m
IS
i I
fi'
(
11^
i-'20i. Fi<iiii y<iui knnwltHlj^e of Uritisli Coluiiil)iii, do you think ii pniliiljitory law
for till- \vliolt> Dominiim could lie practical ly enforced here /- I do not think so, coinpiir-
in;t the class of people with tliose of the tfast.
42205. In nuikin;; tluit answer did you take into consideration the Keoj,'rapiiicai
position of the country and tlie extent of coast line and hounilary line? I (hd take that
into consideration.
I'J'JOt). Would you apprehend that sniuj|glinf; could he cariied on in re;,'ard to
lirinfjinff in liipior here from other countries ?— I should look upon the matter in this
way : if the peo{)le could not smu;,'j.;le it in, they would ol)tain it in som(! other way, and
tliey would make it themselves.
4'2l'07. In the event of a general prohibitory law, a law to ])iohil)it the manufac-
ture, importation and .sale of alcoholic li(|uoi's for lie\era},'e purposes, do you think it
would he rii^ht to compensate hrewers and distillei's for loss of plant and machinery
rench'red useless? You understand that they art^ reipiii'ed hy departmental n^jiulations
to put in certain expensive machinery, and further that distillers have to keep theii'
li(pior in stock for two years for rectiHcation purpost's .' I think they shoulil I'eeeive
compensation.
iLiL'OS. Liipiors in hond would be entii-ely useless in that event? — Yes.
42"J0i>. Of course that law would not prohibit the im])ortation of alcohol for
medicinal purposes and foi' sacramental pur[)oses, l)ut you iinist remember that the stock
on hand would be very much larjiei- than would be needed for such ])urposes. Of cours(^
all this must be taken into account in franiini; your answer,' I think they should be
compensated.
t2"_'lU. State to the Connnission any su,u:«,'estions you could make, from your
e.vperience of the license law, that would be beneficial ? -1 do not know that I could do
so. We are labouring here uniltM- difficulties in connection with the position of the city,
and of course the houses here ai'e of an inferior class owin;,' to the fact this is a new city.
That condition, however, is madually jiassing away. We now lia\(! a first-class hotel
iiere, and there are also some very poor ones that were started in the early days.
Bi/ Her. Dr. McLeod :
42211. You think the Sunday law is very well observed I Fairly well.
42212. Then do you think there are some infractions of that law? — T have no
<loubt that there ai'e some infractions.
422l;i. Do you think the cases you have s])oken of in which the penaltj' was
imposerl, had a good effect in educatinjj; the parties not to violate the law? — I .should
think so.
422 1 4. Is it the duty t,f the police to see that the Sunday law is observed 1 — I should
think if they saw violations (>f the law going on that it was theii' duty to report to the
Chief of Police such violations.
4221"). Do you know whether it is part of the; duty of the police ofiicers to watch
foi' violations of the law?--T think so, l)ecause that is a by-law of the city, and it, as
well as other by-laws, recpiires to be looked after ; and it is certainly jiart of tlie duty of
the police to see that the by-laws are observed.
4221(). Are there cases in your city in which ap]p|icants for licen.se require to have
a petition signed? — There are not.
42217. Do they simply make application to the Hoard of Commissioners, and does
the Hoard issue licenses at discretion I — Exactly.
42218. Does the Board re(|uire you anfl your men to iiKpiire into the charactei- of
ajiplicants? -Yes; T have to make a report of the ]iremi,ses for which a license is sought,
and also as to the character of the applicant.
4221!*. Have any applicants been refu.sed licenses? — Th(;re have been.
42220. Was the ground of refusal, inadeijuacy of acconnncxlation or because of the
doubtful character of the applicant? — Because the licenses were all taken up.
42221. You spoke of unlicensed sale in houses of ill-fame. Has no attempt been
made to prevent that unlicensed sale? — I do not think so.
42222. Why not? — I do not know ; the thing has been going on in the city ever
since I came.
MuKUOCK G. McLeoij. V
622
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
lerr lire •>;>
■itiiiiMti'd as
i-'2'2'.\. Ih it your duty iis Lii-ciisf liispcctDf, nr is it tiic iliity nt' the |puiici' tu limk
u|i sucii ciiscH ,' - We work t(i;,'i'tlii'i-, iiiid it is the duty (it' Ixitli ut' us.
i'2'22i. NN'iiuld yiiu t'ci'l tlwit suin('i)i)(ly lind iicLtlcclcii liis duty in nut liaviiiii inter-
t'crcd witli tliosf I'liHcs / I do not kiictw.
I'J'J-"). Would it not l)f wi'ii to niiikc an attcmiil to rlu'ck uiilicfiisfd sale ratlicr
than i.ssiK! niort* liL'«!iKsos ; or woidd it lit- lit'ttcr to issm,' licenses.' I do not know,
Itecau.se it would j,'ivfi jieojile nior'e liherly to tVeijiient those places. I do not think it
woid<l lie well to license such houses to sell lii|nor, liecausi; it would seein to j,'ive liliertv
to persons to t'i'e(nu!nt those |ilaces. It would lie well to make an attempt to slop them.
tl.'"_'l.'li. Is there ecpial eU'ort made to stop illicit sale in other |ilaces as thei'e is in
those places? — Cei'tainly there is, and more.
42227. Who exercises the discretion in those matters ! I cannot tell.
42228. Do you think license r'cj^'ulates the trade .' -Yes, I think it does.
4222H. It does not in those places.' Xo, it does not.
422.'5(). ^'ou have, we understand, about ."lO licen.stnl places here / Tl
licensed plact^s, I lielieve.
42231. And ai'P there lf< luilicensed ? I cannot say.
422.S2. Are there more than one-third '. I cannot say.
422.'5.'{. What is the total license revenue of the city / The amount
$1."<,40U for this year.
42234. What is the ordinary fee foi' an hotel license? -f*20U.
42235. And for a saloon license .' .'?"iUU a year.
4223(i. And for a wholesale license? — $100 a year, and foi' .--liop license .-<ll)i» a yeai'.
422.37. Ts a shop license allowed to Ix; carried on in connection with the sale of
;;ideeries? -Nothiny; is ;dlowed hut litjuor and toliacco. Liipior is not allowed to he sold
liy the i;lass, hut liy the bottle, not less than one pint.
4223S. How many shop licenses are there ! Seven.
42239. Yo'u are also k(!eper of the jail, we understand ? ^'es.
42240. How many prisoners have you under your chai'^c from week t<i week 1 I
have an avei'aj^e of 10 or 12. I have my lejiort for I (S'.)O with me, The total numlier
charged with drunkenness was 232 out of a total of 7f^<i.
42241. 2.32 were imprisoned for di'unkenness .' Yes.
42242. < )f the other ■"):')4, how many were imprisoned for ollences connected with
the drink iiabit and trallic, diTectly or indirectly ? -I should say the estimate giM-n
b}' the Chief of Police was true ; 2o pel' cent wei'c for di'unk and disorderly and incap-
ability am! other 2"! jiei' cent were for offences traceable to drink.
42243. To what class of offences would the remainder beloni; .' They were oH'cnccs
against the by-laws and various other offences.
42244. For instance, I sujipose you have a classification somethini.;' like this which
was given in the New Westminster re]iort ; a.ssaults ; assaults with intent to do liodiK
harm, breaches of the ]ieace, lighting with concealed weapons, disorders on the sticels,
frecpienting houses of ill fame, keeping houses of ill-fame, larceny, selling into.xicating
liquoi-s to Indians, &c., iC-c. Are your cases classilied in that way ! Yes.
422 b"). Of the cases which I have I'ead. would you consider any iiercentage of them
connected directly or indirectly with tht^ <lrink trade .' In all piolialiilily must of
them are. «
By Jnd(/e McDonald :
4224G. You have spoken about houses of ill-repute in this city.
existence of such places is due to the floating population of the city
42217. You mean that it is probably due to the fact that tin
regard to licjuors being sold in those [ilaces, is it more than
that this i.s done ? — It is a supjio-sition.
\
Ji// AVr. Dr. McLeod:
42248. Do von beliexc there is sale '. 1 cei'tainlv do.
Do you think the
1 should think so.
is a seaiiort. In
iipposiiion on your part
623
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33 WIST MAIN STREET
WEBSTER, N.Y. MSSO
(716) 87J-4503
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Liqiioi- TiHtHc — JJiitisli ( olumbia.
MAIUIY AISHOTr, <»t' Vniicoiivcr, <»ii iK'ing duly sworn, (I<-|)om'(I as t'ollows : —
Jiif Juihji^ MrDuHiild :
>'_'!.'4y. 1 iindttrstuixl vou \wv (ifncral Su|>eriiit«'inl«'iit uf tin- Pncitio (livisimi ut' tlic
Canadiiiii Pacific liiiilway (''»iiipany ? Yes.
\'l'l-ti). H(»\v lon^ liavc you HvchI in Rritisli Coluniliia ' I havf Ikh"!! Iutc since tlic
winter of 188r)-sfi.
r_'"jr)|. Have you reside*! in \'ancou\er durin;; all that tinief The tii-st year
1 was at Foil Mf)ody jiart of the time, and I have JH't'n here sul)se<|uently.
I'J'J")!'. hurin*; all tliat time, vou have Iw-en (teiieral Su|M'i-intendent of the Pacific
division of tiic Canadiiin l*a<'ilic Kailway .' Yes.
422').'V l>id you come liere originally from one of the oilier |iro\iiices? I came
herefrom the Province of Ontario. I came from HrtM-kviile.
I'J'J'it. 'I'akiii^ tliis community as you have found it, do you think it is com|io>ed
of a soIk'I' and orderly class of |)eo|ile / Yes, I tliink so.
4'Jl!.">r) How does it compare with other comiiiunities .'- It will com|iare very
favounihly with communilies in which I liave live*!.
t'-'lir»(;. Ha\e you hiui aiiv reason to oliseiM- the workinii of the license law here/
I ha\e had some occasi<ui to see how it worked.
\'l'l'u . And liow in your opinion has it worked .' Fairly well. I tliiiik perhaps
there is tiKi much laxity in ;;runtiiij; liceii.ses. They are occasionally i^ranted lo ]M-ople
who should lint lia\e them, and who ha\e not the accomiiKKJation cal!e<l for in the Act.
(•i'-T))^. The last witness has saiil that there was ditliciilty. owini; to tlie fact that
some hou.ses ol)taiiied licenses in the early days and they are continued. Are any of ihe
houses to wliicli }'<*>> I'efer of that class.' I could not say. I understand that tlic
issuinji of licenses takes |ilace yearly, and I do not see any rea.son why any v;ieatcr
|>rivile}ies should Ix' {|(i:anted to the old timers than to new applicants.
4'Jl.'r»i(. Have you oliserxed whether the Sunday law is oI(sim\c<I liy liceiiseil houses ','
— Only jjenerally.
\'l'li\y). What lias Im-cii your ohservation .' 1 consider the law isfaiily well enforced.
I see no drunkenness alxiut the streets, and that is all 1 am ahle to jud^ie ffom.
4'J2t)l. Have you had any experience of a prohil(i'oiy enactment in any country .'
—Yes. T have hsul iK-casion to Ite in the State of .Maine a !.'imm| deal, and the Maine
law is not enforced.
4--*>-. You say you have liccn in .Maine .' ^'cs ; 1 had iM'casioii to no down tluM'e.
1 had charge of the last section of the (!rand Trunk to Island Pond, and afterwards 1
had the contract for the maintenance of way on the (!iaiul Trunk IJailwav. I had occa
sion to jjo to Portland very often.
Jl''_'<>.'{. What experience did you have in renard to the .Maine law ' I think niv
exjjerience was untavouralile to the law ; that is to -iay that aiiylMKlv could j;el liipior at
any tiiiio ami anywhere almost whi-n he want4>(l it, hut it was of \ery poor (|uality.
42'J*i4. |)oyou know whether liipior was carried over the (irand 'I'runk Kailvvav to
any extent?- I could not say as to that.
4'_'"J(>r>. N'oii know that in the State of Maine, indiv idu.ilsai'e allowed to have all the
lit|Uor they want in their own cellars and to ;five it to their friends '. Yes.
I'l'lWt. t'ould jK'ople hriiii; in liquor and sell it .' Ves, surre|it itiously. Kor instance,
a man could have a dhhu which any one could enter, and after lakinu all the li(|Uor the
visitors want«>«l they would he exjiected to leave a certain sum of money on the tahle.
That was th» iiiinon way.
I"_'"_'*i7. Were there any places where there were ojien hars .' I could not say.
4'_'2t)8. Have you had experience of a prohiliitory law anywheiv e^.^e .' No. No
further than the prohiltition that was enforce<l Ity the l>oiiiinion Act for the preservation
of the |M'a<'e on railways : that was on railway construction at Sudhurv. on the Cana-
dian Pacific l{ailway. section l.">. I had charge of ITiO iiieii at fii-st and afterwards of
the whole district iM'tween Sudlmry and Port Arthur.
IJ'Jti!*. The Pulilic Works .\ct applie*! to the railway umler construction, 1 sup-
|M>s«' ] Yes.
Hakkv Ahhoit. /
624 t
I
to
I
in
I
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
1"J*J70. Wits it yniif duty lit look after tin- fiit'orct'iiuMit of it ? - Y«'s.
V2'n\. How WHS it oiirri»Hl out / Very iiicrticii'iitly 1 iiin iifnvid, altliougli we (Ji(i
our liest to c-arry it out. We ooulW not jm^vent li<{uor coming in.
4'2'27'2. You had oHicers under y«>ur eharj^r / - Yes. eonstablcs aionn the line.
i'2'2~'-\. Wliat was the ditKcuity in rej^ai-d to jireventinj; li<|uoi' ooniin;; in f —It was
hi-ou^ht in in various ways.
l'227i. Stat*' some of the ways / On one occasion a ({uantity of |M)tat«H's came in.
I liad a .suspicion tliat ii(|Uor would lie brought in at the same time, and I sent a constaMe
to t>.\amine the carfjo, and he rejwtrted that there was nothing' hut jMitiit<K's in the »'ar.
I went myself, and we o|H>iied some of the barrels and found kej;s of spirituous litpiors
inside of the barrels of potatoes. There were 18or20 barn'ls when we examieied the car,
and some had Ik'ch sold on the way.
4*J"27r). Were there any other modes used '( -Yes. Another plan was and this jilan
was lulopted on sevtiral iK-casions— to have nianufacturiwi jackets of tin. fitting; close to
the Ixnly with space of two or three inches between that and an outer coverinj; of the
liarrel, and in this space lii|uoi° was kept. Another |ilan was to lirin^' liipior inside of
dressefl hoj{s, and in oil cans, the cans In'inji labelled "coal oil.' There wer'e, of course,
other UKMles, but these are .some of the few re^jularly adojtted.
4227(). Did you luuu'stly endeavour to suppress the siiaij,'<{lini( of liquoi' ?— Yes.
42277. Did you tin<l it imjiossible to do .so? Yes.
4227)^. We IumI evidenc(f at WinnijM'j; from a gentleman who was a contractor on
section 1"), Mr. Sift<>n, to the efl'ect tliat witii one or two constables he found it easv to
thoroujildy enforcf? the provisiojis of the Act on the section of road which he built? -I
do not know that sectittn, iind unless it is situated very ju'culiarly, aiui unl(!ss he possesse<l
unusual facilities for stojipmy smu<f^;ling, I should 1m' very much inclined to doubt his
stiitenu'nt.
4227'.*. Had you any difficulty in rejjard to men ^icttin;; in li(|Uoi- on yom- section !
-The men were determined to <.;et it, and many metluMls were adopted for doini; so.
These I have dcscriUfd to some extent, althou(;h (tf course J do not know, as a matt(>r of
fact, that li(p;or was brouj;lit in. I suppt)se many cases occurred which wei'e not dis-
covei'ed. I know that liipior was brought in, from the results.
122HO. Supposin;{ a Dominion prohibitoi-y law was enacted, do you think brewers
and distillers should be reminierated for loss of plant and miU'liiiii-ry. You understand
that bnnvers and distillers are compelled by law t^i jirovide certain machinery, and are
calle<l upon, by departmental ifirulations from time to time, to make chan;;es, and also
that distillers are require*! to keep their liipuir in stock for two or three years foi- recli-
tieation purposes?- That isasubject of which T have no \erv ;,'reat know le< !<;»•, but in iiy
opinion it would only Im> fair if what is lei^al trade now should be made ille;;al, that the
parties who are interested and who have capital invested should In- c(»mpensaied.
t22Hl. It is urgefl by some that in case of chanjjes in the tariH' merchants may l)e
aH'ected in business and no compensation is allowed them?- I think the two cases are
hardlv parallel. The importei-'s business niii{ht be more or less injure*!, but it would iioi
1)6 injury such as the manufacturer of liquors would suffer.
422H2. It is uiyed afjain, that under the law the brewers and *listillers are oidy li
i-ensed from year to year. On the other hand, it is urj;e*l that the licenses are practically
renew«'*l y*'ar after yeai- ? The numufacturers have inmle an out lay which may Ik^ rentlt-red
useh'ss by a prohibitory law.
422H.H. Ila\»> you, in your lineof duty, lia*i to do a ;;realdeal with travellers ? — 'N'es.
422H4. In case of the enactnu-nt of a law |)rohibitin<{ the manufacture, importation
uiul sale of alcoholic lit|U*)r for lH'veraj{e purposes, it would haxf the eflect of preventing
privaue in*lividualH brin>;ing liquors '/ — Yes.
42285. Tlu> enactment of sucli a law would necessarily carry with it the lijfht of
domiciliary visit and search of pers*»n. Whateff«'ct would that have on travel? -I think
it would have a deleterious effect Ut some extent.
42286. We have hear*l tliat in the North-wj'st Territories, where such a law was in
f*)rce, a considera))le ditticulty was experien**-*! on account of |M>*>ple brin>iinj{ in li*iuor
on the Pullman cars on your railway?- I only know that generally.
626
21—40**
fil
Liquor Traffic — Britisli Columbia.
122H7. Ha« your Conipuny any ivj^ulaticms in leKiirtl Ui the use <»f lii|U(ii- l>y men in
its employ ? — Yes.
4'J2SH. You do not allow drinking men to enter the employ of the comj)any ! -No.
4228!(. Is the (|uestion "are you a total abstainer" asked men when they apply for
situations ( No.
42290. Could you say from your knowledjje whether the employees of the Canadian
Pacific Hailway are total abstainers I— No, th»*y ai"e very far fi-om it, I am sorry to say,
because occasionally cases occur which show that they are not.
42291. Have you many employees wh«>, while not total abstaineis. are able and
ethcient otHcei-s ?— Yes.
42292. Men who take li<|Uoi- in moderation, and in intnleration only I — Yes.
42293. And are reliable men? — Perfectly so. It is the exception, I am xhul to say,
to find men who take licjuor to excess. In fact, we do not ke«'p men if they make a
practice of it.
42294. Are there any suggestions that you can((ffer totheCommission ?- -No. Ho fai-
us the Province of British Columbia is concerned, I think the present system is a very
giKxl one, if it were properly enforced, esjxicially if it were suri-ounded by some few fur-
ther restrictions.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod:
42293. Hpeaking aboui railway construction prohil)ition : do you think if the trade
h id l)een licensed along the line, there would have lieen more or less consumption of
i quorl — I do not know that there would have In-en more consumption, but I think it
vould have been more easily kept track of, an<l there would have l>een a l)etter class of
li<|U<ii .sold.
42296. Do you think the fact that men resortefl to such ex|ie<lieiits as you have
mentioned shows that liijuor had some grip on the men, so as to leiul them to re.sort to
such strange ways of obtaining li(|Uor? — The law had such a grip that it necessitated
this Iteing done on the sly, theli(|uoi- being smuggled.
42297. What class of men resorted to those expedients ?- They were the class of
men that usually follow railway construction ; I do not know that they can be called a
class by themselves. All kinds of crimes follow the intnnluction of liquor by those
men.
42298. Did you observe that there was much disoi-der among the men along the
line of construction ? — It was to some extent spasmo<lic. When they got liipior there
was disortler. In fact it amounted to so much fit one time that we had to call the pro-
vincial jX)lice to our aid. It was at Hi.scotasing that the riot was. I rememlK-r a
bullet was shot through my bed-room on one occasion.
42299. Wo had it in evidence in WinnijM^g and also throughout the Nt>rth-west,
and I think Commissioner Herchmer ami othei-s agreed with the evidence, that prohibi
tion under the Public Works Act had a very marked efl'ect in preventing disturbances
that would naturally occur among a large Ixxly of railway men ( — I think it had that
effect, but it did not afterwards jirevent disturbances.
42.'JOO. fSj)eaking alwut personal .search on the cars. We have it in evidence that
Pullman cars were used for smuggling pur|H)ses throughout the mountains. Have you
any knowledge of that f I have no knowle«lge of it.
42301. Are pa.ssengers searched under the customs law for contraband g<NHls .'
—Not passengers going fi"om one province to another.
42302. But when coming from the United States into this country? -Yes; the
Ijaggage is examinefl at the boundary line,
42303. Is the hand liaggage examined also? — I think all baggage is examined. As
regards personal examination, that is not always done.
42304. Is that ditterent from the search that would lie necessary in the event of
the adoption of a general prohibitory 1. w for the Dominion? I suppose the same thing.
4230/). Does that search deter travel 1 No ; I do not think licjuor would l»e apt to
couie in that way, except as carried by travellers. I ilo not think the carrying of a bot-
tle uf liquor by an individual on the cars is apt to do much harm to the community.
Hauky AuBorr.
626
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
42306. It would not l)e regarded as an offence l>y tlie Customs authorities any
more than is at the present time tlie importation of any small arti<'ie for personal use ^
Prolmiily not.
42:{07. Speaking about the Canadian Pacitie Kailway Company's rules : while ap-
plicants for positions are not Hsk«Hl whetlier they are total abstainers oi- not, is it a fad
that your rules are (piite rigid as to the drinking haltits of the employees ,' They aie
not rigid to the e.\tent of prohibiting ahsoluU^ly a man taking drink, l)ut we givedistinet
preference to men who are known to l»e sol)er, sU'ady men.
42.'50><. Take this «;ase for instance : Two nten aj)ply to you for the position of tele-
graph operator or train des]>atcher. They are eijuul in many respects as I'egai-ds aliility.
One is known to have the drink habit ; he never gets drunk, but he drinks. The other
is a total abstainer. Would 3'ou give the preference to a total abstainer ! Tf a man
was known to have the drink habit it would be natural to suppose that he would drink
to exce.s.s, and certainly preference would Se given to the otiier num.
lii/ Judyi- McDonald :
42309. It would be well to define the (fi'ihk habit. You know that a man making
application to you for position, a.s a su])erintendent, does occasionally take <lrink : you
know that another man is not a drinking man at all. These men are e(pial in ability.
Would you give the preference to one man over the other on that grounil ? No ; I think
I would be guided in that case by the etticiency of the men, and I would select the more
erticient man. There must l>e some difference, the men cannot Ite *!xactly alike. ( )iie
might write a better hand even than the other. Hut the fact that one man takes liipior
in mo<leration wlule the other is a total abstainer, would not have any weight.
By Ii>'r. Dr. MrLeod:
42.310. A Suiwrintentlent of tlie Canadian Pacific llailway statetl the case in this
way ; Two men apply for a certain position. One is ipialified in all respects fortheposi
tion, but he is known t4» take liipior occasionally, although he never gets drunk. The
other man is not (piite .so giMKi a man, but he is a total abstainer. The Superintendent
said he would not hesitate a moment in cluMising the total i»,bstainer. When asked his
reason he .said, while the one man might never intend t,o drink to exce.ss, he might do
so, while in the other case there was no dangei-. Of course, that depen<lK altogether
on the degree to which a man drinks.
4231 1. Are many men di;icharged fi-om the Comjiany's service on account of drink-
ing/ We have o<H!asionally some such cases.
42312. If a train conductor or a train des])atcher were known tofretpient bur -rooms,
would he be regarded with suspicion ? -They are watchwl.
42313. Do your rules, and the enforcement of them, have the effect of preventing
your men falling into drinking habits I -I think they have a certain effect.
42314. Is this rule of the Company a |)urely business one? I think it is.
42315. Are we to understand that the Company adopt this rule regarding the use
of lii|Uor and its danger.s, fi'om a purely busini^ss point of view '. -\ would put the wovd
"abuse"' instead of "use." I do not think it would make nnirh (Jifference if a reliable
man took a glass once in awhile and never t(»ok it to excess : that would not render him
unreliable. While we i-egard the use of li(pior as a very ol)je(iionable habit in a man,
still we do not reganl it as an article to Iw prohibited entirely.
4231(). Does the fact that an employee is known to friMpient drinking places and
the further fact that the Company thinks that use may lead to abuse, cause the use to
1)6 considered dangerous?- Certainly.
Ilf
21— 40J**
m
ik
Liquor TratTic — Hriti.sh Columbia.
.lOSKPH K. MILliAK, of Vuucouver, nn Iw-in;.' duly sworn, dfiMm*^! iw follows: —
liy >lii<lg>' Mfl>int<ilil :
42.'il7. Wliat position <io yon lioUi ? I mn Collector of Tnluiid l{fvcnu«>.
ri'JIH. NVIiiit is your district ( Mv district covers t lie whole of the niniiiliind of
Itritish Columlnii.
42.'M'J. You lire from the ('oiMitv of l^eetis, I JM-liex)-.' Yes, from MrtM'kville.
\'1'-\'10. Mow ioii^ hiiveyou livrij in Itritish Coliimliiii '. Alsnit :t years and 4 months.
I2H21. Ik'fore that time I sii|i|M»se you Jived elsewhere in Ontario ! — I lived (5 years
in <)nt4irio. in tive diflerent places, and so I have seen most of the province.
\T.\'1'1. Where else have you live*! in Kritish Columltia than Vancfiuver ? — I
have travelled over my district that is all.
4"2.H2.'5. What are your duties as lidand |{e\enuc Collector with regard to intoxi-
uatinjr lii|Uors'/ .Ml liquor here is liandled in l>ond. We have no manufacture of li<|UorK
un the mainland, no distillin<{ is done on the maiuliind, although we have 5 hreweries ; '1
at Westminster, '1 at !{evelstoke, and I at Nelson. One of the breweries at Hevelstoke
has iM-en dropfM-d. Then we have thi-ee hreweries* here, and they have U-conie more
ext^'nsi\e as the snuiller ones have Ikm-ii droppe<l. .Si there are '^ in Vancouver pr<»j)er,
2 in Westminster, 1 at Uovelstoke anil I at Nelson.
I'2''{24. Are all those within your district ,' Yes.
42^2'!. Is the output extensive, taking them altogether? — Yes; the Weer trade has
Ijeen increasing during the last ;{ years.
42."<2(). l>oes this include lager U'er ? -Yes, Jind steame«l \wi'r.
42.S27. What is that? -It is a heavier l)eer, and oh that account will keep lietter
than other Ix'er.
42.'{28. Do you have to insjK'ct those breweries ?— Yes.
42.'}21). Have you any figures witli you showing the t<ital out])ut ? I can give you
the figures for tin! lasf two years. They are as follows. Our tiscal year ends July. The
output was for ISitOlH, lH.5,7ri.'j galhms, lH<tl-!»2, l!»:».r.|0 gallon.s. "
42.'1.'10. I)(K!s that include all kinds of iK'cr ? — Yes.
42;i.'M. Have you a statement of the revenue derivwl ? — I can gi\e you a statement.
42.'{.'J2. How nuiiiy gallons have hecn lirought in .' During the season of 1^90-1)1.
there were .■<(>,() 1!> gallons ; lHl)l-it2, .'M,)^"'*, an increa.sc of 1,()0(' gallons. Taken from
warehouse in IH'.lO-i)!, 22,421 gallons : lsy|-!t2, .•»2,2()7 gallons.
42.'}.S,'1. What alxtut wiiu's ( — I have nothing to do with them.
42.'i34. Are those s]iirits manufacturtnl in Ontfirio .' — Yes, in Toronto and Windsor.
42.'i."l5. As a citizen, have you observed the woi-king of the license law here? — Ye.s,
I have given the matter some attention ?
42.'{.'W). How do you find it work ? \'ery well; but I would favour the im}K)sition
of heavier licen.se fees in order to have a better class of men in the trmle.
423.S7. Do you mean a Injtter class of hou.ses .' — There are too many shacks, old
ln>u.ses that were built here in the first place, and I think there are tof) nwiny licen.ses
issued here.
42.'J38. Do you think there are more than are necessary ? — Yes.
42.'{39. We have l)een told that under the city by laws the ,sal<M)ns will Undiminished
one by one until they drop out altogether ? — Yes.
42340. Is that desirable? — I do not think a saliMin is vt!ry desirable.
42341. If you w«re called upon to alKilisli either the saloon or the hotel bar,
which would you drop?- I should t^ertainly drop the saloon.
42342. Have you had any experience of a prohibitory law ? — Not except Mhat 1
saw of the Scott Act in BriK-kville. I know nothing, however, as t4> tlie working of it.
42343. Have you l)pen lier<3 long enough to Im- able t<» form an opinion as to
whether a prohibitory law could Ik? satisfa«torily enforced in British Columbia ?^I am
of the opinion that it could not. We have such an extent of territory here that it
would become practically a dead lett^M*. Then the chances of smuggling by water are
quite extt^nsive.
Joseph K. Mili.ah.
6SS
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
ll.'.'UI. Ila\f vou liny illicit inanufiu-tuiv nf liquor ^oin;; on in this provino*? / W«'
have liiul only ono case in Vancouvci'.
P.'.llo. W'v |ia\i' Ix'on told tln' manner in wliirli Indians manutactuiv li<|iior. Tlu-
same tliinj; lias Immmi stated to nu- In-re. I do not think it is piissible that the Indians
inaniifaeture lii|iioi- ii\ that way : for this reason : It is stattni that they use kelp as a
worm. The heat passing lhrouj{h this worm must neeesHarily contract the kelp, and the\
could not us(> it, at all events more than on<-«>.
I'_'.U<J. Have you had any ex|)erienee in regard to this matter ? —No ; I have simply
iieard this as h**arsay.
I'_';U7. Are there any suj^jjestions drawn from your ofiieial experience with the
liquor tratlic that you ran make to the C'ominissioti ! No.
I'J.'US. Take this sul)j<>ct as \ iewed from your own stand|)ojnt, what is vour
opinion? - I think the tratiic is lieiiijt; dealt with in a proper manner now. aiul 1 do not
think it is possible to make any im]>rovements.
I2.'<l!*. In case of the enactment of a law prohihiting the numufacture, iin|Mirtatioh
and sale of alciiliolic liquors for Iw-veraj^es, do you think it would lie ri;;ht to com|iensate
lirewei-s and distillei-s for loss of plant and machinery rendered u.seless f I eertainly do.
The liusine.ss has lieen lejjalizcd and a very heavy outlay has Ix-en made. The lirewer
has not as much dilliculty as a distiller : he gets in his malt duty ]iaid and supervision is
almost unnecessary.
I"_'."i")tl. Hi'eweis do ii<it have t<. keep their liquor in stock for a certain length of
time! No; they can send it out at once.
r_'.'<-"il. And what is tiie jMisition <if distillers/ They arc altogether ditlercnt.
Kverything is dmie in iMind : from the time the iiiasii leases the tuns until the spirit is
produced, their liquor is under the law. There has to lie sjM'cial machinery for the purpose,
and ex'ei'yihing is done under ImiiuI. l'|) to I SS'.t, the distillers could send their liipior
out immediately, liut now they have to keeji it for two years for purposes of reeti
Hcation.
\'2'-\')'2. Mow is it controlled .' It is under the suptu'vision of (lovernment otiicers.
The li(|Uor is in evaporating ;anks, which frequently ctintain something like .'JO.OdO
gallons. ,iiid afterw;iids it is passed directly to the rectitier. where it is allowed to remain
for some time. roi-inerly the distiller was not allow eil a jiercentage, Itecause the duty
was charged on the total quantity and no loss was allowed. Now the ()o\ eminent allows
a certain pi^rcentage. A distiller can keep his liquor in liond /or 7 years maturing, and
of eour.se he has to keep it for two years. Up to sin'cn years he is allowed a certain
pen'eiitage for evaporation, whieli is deducted from the original charge for purposes of
duty. For the 1st year they are allo\v(*d ti per cent, tor the L'lid I per eent, for the .inl
year .'5 per cent, and for the Ith, -"ith, ami titli years 2 per rent each. So there is a great
deal of cajiital, of course, locked up in a distillery
42.i5:<. How are the licenses issued in this province / Yearly.
I'i.'?")!. Ha\c you ever known a case in which a license toa distiller was cancelled?
— The department do nut cancel licenses except for some irregularity. If a man's ju'e-
niises are all right in the first place and the liusiness is conducted all right, he is sure
to get his license.
I2l{")."i. Soto speak of a distiller or lirewer olitaining his iicense from year In
year is a misnomer .' Yes,
•I ■_'.■<■")<!. Hi reidiv possesses his license com till Uotlslv '. - Yes. It i^■ true that his license
expires at a certain date, hut as sinm as he pays the license fee it is at once I'enewed.
and he continui>s his liusiness during the following year, 'i'ake the distillery of (JoiKler-
ham and \Vorts, in Toronto : \Ve have eight officers doing nothing liut liMiking after
the jirenii.ses. There are restrictions as regards the spirit reservoirs so that the depth
will show on a certain gauge. In other words, one day's retining must represent a ci-r-
tain depth of the reservoirs. Then all the connections lietween the still and the reser-
voir must lie do.sed and sealed as well as the joints and all the openings which are locked
with special locks and sealed. Of course very heavy exjienditure is involved in starting
a distilleiT, especially with the two years' limit now attached to it as reganls the rectili-
cation of spirits, and of course it is almost impossible for any man t^i start this business
unless lie is jxissessed of almost unlimite<l capital.
«29
Liquor Traffic — British (.'olumbia.
42357. In the event of Parliament enattiiiK a law t<> jimliihit the iiianufacturp,
importation and sale of alcoholic liquoi-s for hevera^je purjiose. do you think there would
be much plant renderetl useless? — In the distilleries, hut not in hreweries.
42358. Would the machinery itself be a heavy los.s ? Must of it.
42359. And in a brewery certain parts <»f it would Ije a luss ?- Yes.
By Rev. Dr. McLeod :
42360. You have spoken alx)Ut there Win;; a larye increase in the consumption of
bt«r. Do you know whether there has l»een a decn-a.^' in the consumption of spirits 'I—
There has been a decrea.sed consumption of spirit." fx-r capita.
42361. Do 3'ou think the diminution of the consumption of .spirits here corresponds
with the increase in the output of l)eer ? — I think so.
42302. Have you any tiffures which show that ,' — There is another point which I
should like to bring to the attention of the Commissi«in. I'ntil two years ago the whole
province here was dependent on Victoria, more or less. The Victoria merchants had,
and still have, what we. call the monopoly of ihetnuie. but gnulually we have got our
own, and now the people do not have to obtain their supplies in Victoria. \'ou can
form an estimate as to an increase or decrease fi-oni the figures shown during the past
two years as compared with tVtrmerly.
42363. Is there no way of determining the matU-r '. You can only arrive at a con-
clusion by taking the whole return for the province.
42364. You say there are 2 breweries in Vancouver ? -Yes.
42365. Why is this whole business flone under the law ? — Because there might be
fiaud.
42366. Then there is fraud ? - 1 should say so.
42367. There are officers st.ati<me<l in the building. You liave state<l that there
are no less than 8 in the premises of G<Kxlerhani. Do vou think it is in the interests
of a distiller to have such a law .' — I think so.
better liquor now than we had previously.
42368. How is the i|uality of the li(|uid
take for example Walker's whisky, comes here
stani[> over the cork. So it is guaranteed .so far
42369. You have spoken about higher license fees U-ing needed, in your opinion, in
Vancouver. What would be the effect? — I think it would have the effect of keeping
out of the business not very desirable |)eople.
42370. Are the peoj)le in the business now not respectable!— It would make them
more respectable.
42371. We understand that the Hoaril of License Connnissionere determines as to
the granting of the licenses, and that a rejMtrt is made a< t<» the charact«'r of the appli-
cant as well as the omdition of the premises f- Tlie license question is one U> which I
have not given very deep thought, for the reason that it has not come under my obser-
vation very much.
42372. You have also said that it wouUI lie l»etter to have fewer licenses issued? —
Yes.
42373. In your opinion would there l)e less s;de if there were fewer licen.ses issued ?
— I do not think it would materially atlect the tr.'ule : at the same time, it would give
a better guarantee as to the <|uality of the li(|Uor sold.
42374. Speaking of saloons and hotehs. Is the .sal<Km far less desirable than the
hotel bar? — All hotels are re(|uired to furnish acconunt^lation as well as dispense li(|uoi-,
while the saloon is simply a bar.
42375. You mean that the .saloon is estiiblisht-d simplv for drinking purpo.ses ? —
Yes.
42376. Some people take this view as lietween the two, that the hot^l is really the
more dangerous. The case is put in this way : that a man who goes tf> a saloon has
the habit pretty firmly fixed and does not care who sees liim go in. But young men go
to hotels, to see a friend on business, and afterwards they dn»p into the bar, or they may
go there under the pretense of wishing to read the newspjipers. In this wa}' it is
Joseph E. Mii.l.\h.
680
At the same time I think we have
estimat*-*! ? — The bulk of the li(|uor,
in lK»nd anfl it Itears thi' (rovernment
as that can \te done.
57 Victoria.
Seraional Fftpers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
nrgiKHl the lii>t<'l Itiir is rt>ally inorc iliiiig*>i'oiis Uiaii tli<< sjiloitii. Mitvc vmi tlioii){|it uf
the iimtter in thttt li>;ht ! -I have iinl jiiveii it iimcli atleiilinii: in tint I <iii not set' it
ill tliai light.
4'_'H77. So ynii still think thf lintel bar is pret'eiiilile to the saltMiii .' Yes.
42.'t7f<. Ill the event of the suhNins iM'iiig alMtli.slied, what woiiM iM-cnnie of the |ii-ii.
jile who fremient them I — That is an mjm'ii <|uestion.
Il'.'l'lt. Would that not Ih' really prohiliition as icganis a certain class f No, |
think not.
4:J."IH0. Wouhl they resort to the hotels tor drink .' Tiiey wmuUI lia\c to do so.
4l'381. Then would the hotel l>ar lieeome what the saliM>n is now.' Not to ijic
same extent, for the surroundings would Im> lN;tt<M'.
4'J.'IH*J. You think prohiliition eould not Im* enforced in Itritish Cohnnhia. Do you
think it could Im' fairly well enforc»'d throughout Canada.' -There are iirovinces in the
1'Ji.st that luMe i>ractically prohibition to-day. I think if there was a proliiliitory law
enacted there would Im' greater smuggling and othei' \iolatioiis of the law than there are
to-day.
I:.' .'{.*<•■!. !»«• you think that a general prohihitory law woulil have a lii-ttei chance ut
iH'iiig enforee<l than a l(M-al proliihitory law I I think so.
lL'.tf<4. If a general proliihitory law were fairly well enforced, do you U'liexe that
it wouhl have any giHxl effect ,' 1 fancy it might do away with some of the present
machinery.
4'_'MH-'>. l>o you lielieve that the evils resulting from the proliihitory law would lie
as great or greater than the evils that result from the estahlished drink traded They
might, in some lines ; generallv I do not think thev would.
FKKhKIUrK SCHuFTKId*. of Vancouver, on lieing duly sworn, depo-ed as
follows :
iJi/ Jiiiit/'' MrDoittihl :
4l'.'{Hti. What is your profession or occupati<ui t- \ am a solicitor of < inlario, and a
Magistrate in this piiivince.
lL':5S7. Are you a Distrift Magistrate? Yes.
42;i8S. From whom does your appointment as Magistrate come? From the l'r<e
vincial (Jovernmeiit.
I 'J.'l ■*<;•. How long have you li\ed in Mritish Columhia / N'ery nearly live years.
4L*.'{!»t). Have you lived all that time in Vancouver?- Yes.
llJ.'MM. 1 hd you come luM'e from one of the othei- pro\inces .' I came here from
Ontiirio, from the County of |.,«'eds and (trenville.
4l'."$y2. Have you any othcial duties in connection with caiiying out llie license
law/ As a Magistrate. 1 sometimes ha\e to cei-tify as to the respecialiiJily of appli-
cants for licenses.
4'_'.'l!l.'i As a citi/.en. have you observed to any extent how the license law is carried
out, whether it wiu'ks satisfa<'toi-ily orotherwise .' As regards the eflect of the liceiiHO
law in this city, I must say that while I hiive Ihm'ii here I have Im-cij very much pleasjni
with the condition of aflTairs. There is less disorder in this city, especially as it is a sea-
port, than I expecttnl to find.
4'2;iS»4. Then you tiiid this to W a .solier and law-abiding community ! More so
than I would Imve expected, aiul I attribute this to the careful watchfulness of the
municipal authorities. an<l somewhat also to the license law. although 1 think theie are
evils in our license law.
4l.'."U>r). Will you name .some of tlie.se evils / I think we have too many hotel
licenses issue«l, for example.
42.39<». The last witness .spoke of the fact that the charactei- of some of the hoiises
might Ije improved ? — Yes. This is a very |>eculiar province. There are some of the mi-ii
631
Liquor Trattic—Britisli Columbia.
who are di'voted tMitirely to luinherinK and soint- to a scat'aiiii^' litV, and tliose men ean-
not be (le|)ri%ed of the luxuries they ran obtain in other j)arts ut' the world. Of course
tliere must In- hotels (we will call thorn hotels) for the dirt'eiunt classes of people, but
there are ttx* many of them. •
i'l'.W. Then you want hotels sutHcient to furnish acconiinudation for the ditl'erent
pectph" in the neij,'hlMiurh<M)d ? Yes. ami so that people can remain tliere and get every-
thing according to their means »)f living.
42398. K\en taking that fact into consideration, you think tliere are t<K> many of
them ? —Yes.
4"J.'M)!>. Have you had any ex|>erienc<' in regard to carrying out a prohibitory law f
— Not since I have been here,
42400. Have you had any experience elsewhere / I had expeiience of it during the
last three years 1 was living in tin- County of I^eeds and (iren\illc, when the Scott Act
was in existence in Urockville.
42401. How did you tind the law work there ; Imd you any knowledge of its work-
ing ? I coulil not speak of its working with approbation.
42402. Then it did not work satisfactorily ?— No, it did not.
42403. From your knowledgt> and experienci- of ISritisli Columbia, do y(»u believe a
prohibitory law could l>e successfully carried out here,' I think not, on account of- the
peculiar position of the province ; not onlv on account of its almost unlimited extent,
but because the othcials would not Ik; able to travel all over the province, as the oj)por-
tunities of going into tin? country are limited, and therefore it would Ik; imjxissible to
carry out the provisions of a prohibitory law.
42404. [n ca.se of the enactment of a general prohibitory hiw, do you think itwouUI
be right that brewers and distillers should becompensated for loss of |ilant and machinery
rendered u.H«'less? -I should think so, simply for this reason, that this business is one of
a character that is guaranteed liy law.
4240"). Have you any suggestions that you can submit to the Commission in I'egard
to the working of the license law, further than those you have alieady made? -Yes. In
lieu of a prohibitory law. T would certainly adxcicate that fewer licenses slunild be granted,
that the license fee should be increased, and that Iiisptjctors should be appointed, having
greater power. An riis])ector should have the power to go right into a hotel and demand
the keys of the bar, and then arrange to have the lii(Uor tested. If the liquor was founrl
not to be of a certain degree of strength, the license should 1h' taken away aiul the liquoi'
( ontiscated. This would lead to a less ipianlity of the liipior lieing consumed, and it
would do away with many of the evils of drinking, that of drinking p<M)r liipior.
42400. In other words, you believe in eHicient regulation of tlie traffic ,' \''es.
Jiy h'l'i: /),: MrL-od :
42407. Have you ever been in any counti'v in the svorld where there is regulation
according to your ideas? -I have never been in any place where there was prohibition
except in Ontaiio.
42408. Was the ti-ade regulated tlu're '. — Not in that way.
42409. Do you know of any <rountrv in the world where it is regulatinl success-
fully ? No.
42410. What are your duties as District Magistrate ? They are chietly confined to
minor criminal matters, such as assaults and obtaining money under false i)retence8 and
coses in connection with the maritime court.
4241 1. Do you hold court like a Stipendiary Magistrate / I do not hold n regular
court, but I hold a court once or twice a week, generally twice a week.
42412. Speaking of the ca,ses of a.ssaults that come before you, have you observed
whether any proporticjii of them are traceable to the drink trade and the drink traffic?
— The majority of them are.
42413. You have to certify as to the resjiectability of applicants for licen.ses ? — I do
sometimes.
42414. Does that come within your duty as a District Magistrate or as a citizen? —
As a District Magistrate it comes within my duty.
Frkdekick Sciiofiem).
032
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4"-MI">. Tlieii you liiivc ditKculty soinctiiiK's in tultilliny tlmt duty / Y»'n.
4-tlti. Wlicii you liiivf to stiitc lis to tli«' i<'s|icftiil)ility lit' tlic upiiliiiirU, do \<iu
n>port tliiit, ill your opinion, lu> is up to tlic stiindard ; is tlmt why you find it ditticult
to pt'rfoi'ui that duty '! In cases in which I do not think the man is tit t'ni' the posit inn,
I do not certify at all.
4J417. What would the applicant do '. He would apply to another Maoist rale.
424IH. Then the paity you think would jfct another Ma;;istrate to do what vou
would not do .' Yes.
42411*. What, from your oli.servation, do you think wi'ie the dilliculties in the way
of eiiforcinj; the Scott Act in Hrockville ? There was ;^reat dilliculty experienced
the Act was violated in many ways. I cannot say whether the failure was more on
account of the had management of those who were attempting' to carry it out, and had
the power, oi- to the \icious propensities of those who tried to violate the law: liul I
know it did not have the efl'ect (»f decrt'asin;^ drinkin;^' in any dej^ree.
42J'_'U. Did it restrict the triwle in any dej;ree ? It restricted the trwie in pultlii-
houses, hut it in(rrea.sed it elsewhere.
t24l'l. Were there no particular lef(al technicalities that hampered the i-nfonenieiii
of the Act f -I am not prepared, at this distance of time, (i\e years, to state.
4'Jt'J-. What from your ohservation has Ix-t-n theeffect of the li<|Uor tratlic in regard
t<» the Itusiness, .social and moral interests of the connnunity ;;enerally .' Speakin;; from
a le^al stand|M)int, of cour.se, the prohiltition as re<,'ar<ls the sale of liquor to Indians is
practically essential, aiul if it ])ossil>ly could he carried out still fuithcr, so as to he ahso
lute as I'e^^ards other people, it would Im> <i ^'(hmI thin<{. Hut in this province we luivc
three cla.sses of people to consider : they re|)resent the lundterin<.', maiiiic and minim;
interests. To prohibit these classes of people from ol)taiiiin<r liipioi-, which they have
l)ec<tme accus'omeci to secure, would lie \ery ditlicidt, and would Im- a had thini; for tin-
province, as they constitute the wealthy population of the pro\incc, mostly.
4'_'42.'{. From your oliservation, what has lietwi theetlect of the li<pior tratlic on those
various industries, on husiness life, lutine life aixl the morals of the comnmnity '. The
home life here is the same as in any other place. The eH'ect of liipior on home life is
very varied in our cities.
4'_'1'J4. [ am speakin<; j;(>nerally. As you have oliserxcd it, is the ctlect ^oodorliad .'
It is certainly had in a ;;reat many places. In lioiiics where liquor is used in modera-
tion, I do not think the eflect is any wor.se than in other cities.
41*425. Do you re<;ard the drink traffic as a menace to the home life of any com-
niunitv iii which it is established / — 1 do as rei;ards some classes.
4242<). To the ycaing men in homes, is it a menai'e f - Ye.s.
42427. They are subject Ut injurious etVects from the li(|Uor t rathe .'
Y.'s.
necessary fni'
Fathers and
are no .-rcater
4242i*. Do you think it well to establish a tratlic which makes it
fathers, mothers and sisters, to be constantly neutrali/.ini; its ertects .'
mothers undoubtedly neutralize the ill ettects of the tratHc, but the evils
here than they are in other jiarts of the world.
42429. Have you observed, notwithstanding; the In'tiinn inllueiire of fathers, niiithi'r><
and sisters, that the drink ti'attic doi's demoralize the younj; men .' It docs decidedly.
424.'iU. Have you observed whether the drink tratlic does injuriously atl'cct business
interests .' — It do<'s no doubt in isolated ca.ses. The efVect is identical with the eflect in
other j)rovinces, that is to say, that amon<; some unfortunate men it does act injuriously.
424.'Jl. Have yovi olweived wln'ther the tratlic afVects the wai;e-earnin;; power of the
community ? Y'es, it does. The people have j^reater opportunities of spendini; their
money, and in this way the meii spend money which they should take home to their
families.
42432. Do you object to prohibition on principle or on account of its alleged imprac-
ticability? — It is more on account of the alleged impracticability of such a law. more espe-
cially in this province. If such a law were pa.ssed for the whole Dominion. I think it
would be practically im|H».ssible to carry on any <;overnment. At the present time,
almost all the revenue is derived from the liquor tratKc.
42433. It is admitted that the country receives .several millions of dollars in the
way of customs, e.\cise duties aiul license fees. Have you thought (if the matter sufK-
633
Liquor Tratlic — I^ririfih (olniiibiti.
lifiitly to U' iililf to form un cHtiiimii- im Ut wliut it lONts tin- rouiiirv, dinrtly or
irnlii'i'<'tly. to ohtaiii tlios«« rcvciiiU'M ' I Inivc not. I know, of coiirHf, thai it routs a
^otmI ileiil, liut ( am unHlilc lo iiiNtitutr n rompiiriMon.
IHAA(' HUKS'PtJN, of N'micouMT, on Ihmii^ tiiily sworn, ilf|)osi-(l a- follows: —
//// Jtii/f/f Mflhnialil :
i-i'.W. What is voiii' itusiiii-M.s or oi'i-iijiation f [ am a (fi'Mtlfmaii.
12J."{.">. Ill what Imsiiifss liax-you lH'<MM'n;;ai.'f(l.' I liavt- Im-i-ii a farnn-r all my litV.
r.'lltCi. How |oii){ lia\c von liNcd in liriliwh ('olnmltia/ Nearly tliret- years.
l"_M."t7. I>i<l yon comt' hero from one of the other |irovinces ,' S'es, from the < 'ounty
of hnrham, < tnlario.
P-M.'IH. How U>\in is it since yon left iMiriiam.' Three yi«ai-s and o\er.
J2J.'{1(. Did yon know Mnrliam under the .Ncoit Act .'Yes. and under the l>unkin
Act, except the towns of I'orl Mope and ('olMinr>;.
I'JUf). How did the Act work in iMirhamf Not satisfactorily, for there was no
machiiM'rv l>y which to carry it out. it would ha\e worked iM'tter if an Insjiector had
iK-en appointed to cari'v it into effect, hut it was not carried out.
I'_MII. No Inspector was apiMiinted ? No.
(2442. I>id the ( >iiturio (iovernnient appoint an Inspector,' Wm, they ap|Hiinted
one near I'ort Hope, liut he wculd not act. A ^rreat many cases |>laced iM-foie him he
ne\er placed I tefore the (iovernnient, and he announced that the (toM-rninent did not
wish to pusii matters Icmi hard.
I'-'(4<1. Hid you report his conduct to his superiors? ^^°e did.
(2144. His su|M'i'ior otHcer was .Mr. Mannini', I lieliexef The Ontai'io ( !o\ernmenl
otticer.
4244"i. .\fter that, <iid he do his duty? Ai cr that lie would take up one case in
twenty.
(244<». Were yon ahle to lay complaints/ Yes. The ditliculty we had was in
rejiard to ^joinj^ iM'fore one Police Ma;;istrate, as .Mr. Hortoii, of Port Hope, and Mr.
Itaines, of ItowmanN'ille, were the Ma;;istrates, and had power to act as any Maj^istrate.
42447. What was the tronltle.' The ;,'reat troulile was. that they were not jiartic-
ular wiiether they took the case cir not.
(2448. \'ou received that information from them I From the authorities altout them.
42441*. Then they were (|uite inde|>endent .' They were.
424r)0. They, in fact, declined to act f- Yes.
42451. Hid yon haxi- many cases in ('olxuirf; and were tines collected .' -Yes.
424r)2. We understand that after the Scott Act had U-en in force three years, it
was re|MNiled ? Yes.
424r)3. To what iiiHuence do you attribute that re|)eal? T(» the disgust of the
jieople when the Act wi's not carritnl out in a ])roj)er way. Every man would .say :
"(!iv«) us enforced prohibition aiul we will vote for it to a man."
42454. We understand that you at first tried the Dunkin Act f Yes.
42455. Havinf{ tried the Dunkin Act and the Scott Act, and not havinj;r succe<Mled.
you now wish total ])rohiliition? — That is what we want now, and I am sure we would U-
able to carry it out.
4245(5. 8up|HMing a total prohibitory measure should be luloptiil, would the Majjis
trates in your opinion carry out the law? They would certainly do their duty.
42457. Why are you of that opinion? Because Mr. Horton and Mr. Baines were
williufjto do their <hity, but they received discouragement.
4245S. How would they receive more encouragement under a general pitihibitory
law when at that time, in Ontario, more than nine-t^ntlis of the province was under the
Scott Act? - Yes, a great many of the counties were.
Fhkdkkk-k Schoki kld.
634
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I'.M-'')'.). WitM tliat II iimnit'i'Ntti i>t |iul>li(- HiMitiiiD'iit in t'a\iiiit- nt' |iriiliiltitiuii ,' It
witN uiiiloiilitiMlly.
iL'MiO. IIiiw woiilii tlitit (lisniiii'lixt' thfin ! |t«'<-tiiis)> iiioiv of tlir |ic<i|i|*- wi-ri- ili>>-
f(UHt)Mi with the liiw. If a {{fiifriil iirnliiliitorv law wcr<- |ini|M>sfil, inure |mmi|i|<> wixiIiI
vnt<' inv it. I'niliT tlic Scott Aft iin oin- si(|«- nf tin- tVncf iIh-v wcuiiil !»•■ sf||i»ii{ lii|U'ii.
iiikI oil llii> otlici- sii|i> you could not sell it.
ll'MH. iiut Ontario County wan |iractically siirroundcil liy pioliiliition counties?
Vcs, and it worked very well at that lime. The talk aUiut more lii|uor Immu;; sold there
at that time is a t'arce. The townshi|) of .Manvers had more than I,<HI0 |ieo|ile and 7i)..
0()0 acres of land, and there is nut a phu-e. or at least there was not three months ai;<i,
wliei-e you could ohtain li(|Uor.
J2II>-'. So the Act was a HUCcesH there ? Yes.
PJ !•>.'{. V'ou say the (leople favoui' prohihition .' Yes.
(:.M()t. Ity that do you mean the total prohihition < '' 'le manufacture and sale i.t
lii|Uoi' for lii>vei'a){e purposes? Yes.
42ll>"». r)o you yourself favour that ! I would always I'l .our that.
I'-'Kltt. Have you neiyhlHiurs who use wiiu-s and a' "- m unHleration f .Many 'if
them do and sonie do not.
t'2tfi7. Take those who do ii.so it, what means aiid you iidipt to prevent them
s«'curii)>i it •* they wante<l to ohtuin it? — I would not let them have it at all : that is my
opinioi.
I2lt>s. You iK'lieve that Kueh a law, if passed, wouiu reipiii-e iiMikin;,' after? Yt>^.
ll'I'i'.l. AikI you would a-ssist in providin;; otljcials ! -Certainly; hut the count v
ins|H-ctors are not noina to Ih* shut out or intimidated in re^ai'i to doini; their duty.
42470. Was any Inspector shut out? \o, hut I .saw a Mai;isti'ate >c r\ed with an
anonymous lett^'r with a skeleton anil cross Ikiiic.s on it, statiny that if he went i., ,i cer
t.ain place, Millliiiiok, to hold court, he would never come kick.
l"_'47l. I>i(l he come hack .' Yes.
(•J47l'. And he is alive yet ? Yes.
t'_'47.'5. So that threat did not prevail ? — No.
(2474. Are you aware as to the |M)pulation of Northumlierlund and I >ui'haiii counties
to which you have referred ,'- .Msail 7().<HJ0, such as are found in a^'ricultural counties
I247">. .\re the people pros|M>rous ? Yes, they are well-toilo.
4247*). 'I'akinj,' those <'ouiities, would you have an I iis|>eclor at the diH'erenl |(oiiii^
where ti'avellers would Im' liahle to comr- in ? --Yes.
42477. We haxc Iwen told in the North-west Territories that there was a forct' of
1,000 iiuMi charyetl with the enforcement of the prohihitoiy law, ami yet liipior wa-
hrou),;lit in from the I'nited States ! I do not douht it for a moment.
4247)^. I)o you U-lieN)' the or<liiiary otiicers would he ahle to |M-rforiii this duty? —
I do not think so.
I247i>. I>id you hear the evidence hrouj{ht liefure the Commission in re;;ard to liipinr
pftcka;{es heiii;^ hrou^ht in in ho<,'s and liipioi- heinji put in eoal oil cans, mixefi with
tohaceo iiiul other ingredients. Are the otticei-s e.\|MH'ted to inspect such nicnhandise '.
-Yes.
424HO. Have you considered at all who shall hear the t'xpense of enfoicin},' such a
law ! If the <>overnmeiit c<uild not In-ar the expense, I do not know who could.
124'SI. Would you allow municipalities to elect the ollicials .' ^'cs.
424)^2. Of course that would Ik* placi.',' a ^jreater e.vpense on the community a- a
whole! -Yes; I would, of course, appoint .,ii>y men of t;(HH I character.
424S.'V l)o you know of any country in the wor!(i where there is such a law as you
wish?- -I suppo.se it is on the statute-lxHik of Maine.
424H4. No. In the State of Maine a man is allowed to have his cellars stcK-ked
with all the licjuor he wishes, and he may u.se it and j;ive it asvay to his iiei;;hlHiurs. Fs
tliat the kiiul of a law you want? - No.
424<S.'). Do you know of any country in the world where there is such a law as y<ni
wish in force? — No.
4248<i. We have lieen told that there is su«'li a law in the Fiji Islands? I Iwim-
heard of it, but I do not know aiiv particulars in re>;ard to it.
635
Liquor Trattic — British ('oliuul>ia.
ll'>f<7. Tlien y<»u foiisuh'r thiit Fiji is iH'tter in that r<'s|)e<-t tluui we are? — Yes.
4l'I8S. In piituiple, you arc a i)r«)liil)iti()nist ( Y'cs.
12489. You a»e o))|m>m(><1 to tlu; lifensinj^ of tlio trallic .' I am,
4-_'4!»i». Do you think it is sinful ? I do.
4"J491. In case of tlie enactment of such a law as \ou wish, do you think it would
be rijfht to compensate hrewers and distillers for loss of plant and machinery rendered
useless? That lni^ht Ih- done in small cases, hut in rc;;ai(l to those ;;reat nionofiolies
that have tried to shut out and s(|uash the little «)nes, or rather hi;; monopolies trying to
<l<( up little ones, they should not receive any compensation.
4l'4!)2. You would only j,'rant ctunpensution to the little ones? — Yes.
4249.'<. Would you limit the numher in lieu of securing that law which you wish?
— Most decidetlly.
42494. And in regard to the retail places, would you do the winie? — Yes.
lii) AV/-. Dr. Mi-L,-n,l:
4249"). We understand from what you sav that the Scott Act in Ontario was fruitful
of g(KKl ; Yes. There was no dilticulty in putting down the trallic if vigoi-ously entei'tni
upon.
1249(>. Speaking about officers to carry out the law : do you know that in Ontario
out rag' ^ were committed upon persons who enforced the law ? — There were several out-
rages pi rpetrated near Orangeville, and in other jtlaces some p('oj>le were shot at.
42497. Was that outrage triuied to any one .' It was traced to a tavern kee])er.
4249H. Have you observed how the license law has operatetl in N'ancouver since it
ha.s been in force here? — No ; I have hardly given it a thought. At the same time, I
know there is liquor soUl or given away on Sundav. I saw a man drunk on Sunday
about two weeks ago, when I was coming from church, lie was lu'ar the Hudson JJay
Conij)any's store and was reeling and embr'acing the lamp post, indeed he was very affec-
tionate to tin? lamp jiost.
12499. Had you a license law in Ontario ju'ior to the Scott Act ] — Ye.s.
12")00. Comparing the condition of things under the two .systems, which was the
more advantageous? I'nder the Scott Act there was r.ot as nnich li(iuor used or to Ix*
olitained.
42;"»(>1. ^\'ould the jH)lice records show that to be the case / Yes.
42.")02. You are an observant man no doubt. Now. what is your observation of
the etlects of the liquor trallic on business aH'airs as well as the social life and morals of
the people of this connnunity \ Thei-e has been a great change in my lifetiuu'. Seventy
years ago F recollect well when on the shores of the Hay of (.^uintt- there was a distillery
alxait two mil(>s distant along the shore. At that time whisky was fourpence (Halifax
currency) a ipiart. anil 1') pence'a gallon. About that time the temperance people iM'gan
to speak and the ministers of the various denominations began to preach against intem-
jierance. 1 remendier the time when a man dare not s|)eak in favour of prohibition.
I well renuMuber the temiierance meetings, and 1 have heard that when some such meet-
ings were held old ladies woultl stand at the door, being afraid to enter. That feeling
has changed from that day to this, but it has changed gradually. There never was a
great revulsion of feeling, but the change came gradually about.
42")0.'l. What is your rea,son for favouring prohibition of the li(|uor tratlic?--!
U'lieve liquor is a great curse in any connnunity and anything done to les.sen it will
greatly Iwnetit the rising generation. If we could get our vonng men in favour of it, the
.s(H)ner the old drinkers died oH" the In'tter, and we wouUl then have a happy and blessed
country. The revenue would be lost I know, alK)ut ^18,000 from the liquor traHic in
this city.
42504. How would you make up that revenue ?- That is a difficult question. The
reduced cost of nuiintaining police and penitentiaries would make up part of it. I have
had .some e.xperience of the ])enitentiarv in Kingston, when Mr. Creighton was Warden. I
hatl acce.ss to the books, and I found that a great many of those who came to the peni-
tentiary came owing to liipior. \ d<i not think that the whole of the .*! 8,000 would be
.saxetl to this city. T am satisfied that there would lie a great falling off in tinea, if there
l8A.\c Pkk.sto\.
636
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
wtiH no liquor obttiinable. If all the men kept sober and there was no <lrunkt>nni'ss,
there would be a great falling ott' in fines.
4'250r). Do you think it just to the community to take from people tines with wiiicli
to fill the treasury ? — Not unless thej' are for punishment for crime. Of course, I think
it is quite necessary to fine people for certain offences, and in litis way certain amounts
ai'e placed in the treasury for the benefit of the connnunity.
42506. The!i y(»u think, if the drink trade was abolished, a great part of the crimt"
would be prevented 'i — -I do not think, but I am as sure of it as that the sun is lighting
the world.
Jly Judge Mr Donald •
42507. What was the majority given in favour of the Scfitt Act when it «(is
passed? I do not know, I think .'5,000.
42508. Can you account for the fact that after it worked such marked chang(?s,
and after it was sulopted by a majority of .'i,0UO |)eople, there should have been such a
revulsion of feeling subsequently f — I look on the matter in this way: Its moral intlu-
ence was very marked, l)Ut the people got disgusted to think that the Act wms not
carried out.
42509. Hut it had been carried out in part '. They were disgusted because the .\ct
had not been carried out in its entirety.
42510. You have stated that you did not expect to secure prohibition entirely.' -
No, I e.xpect snuiggling.
42511. You want prohiltition, however! 1 do.
42512. If with that prohibition you find that the (piantity of litpior consumed fm-
beverage purposes is only i-educed to one-fifth of the quantity at present used, would you
consider that law to Ik* a l)eneficial one? — Yes.
4251.'?. A InMieficial law worth securing? — T would, but thousands would not.
42514. Why would they not ? Hecause they would say that the law is not conq>leic.
42515. Then they wish a clean sweep ?— Yes.
42516. And they will never bt^ satisfied with anything else, [ su)ii)Osc I — No.
42517. If they had prohibition to the extent of one-Hflh, would they be satistieil f
— I think not.
425IH. What would they want next? — Prohibition altogether.
4251!t. Prohibition for the w(»rld .'- No, for our own country.
42520. If in our own country these people we.e not satisfied with llie consumptinii,
reduced to one-fifth, what would they do next ? — They would insist on the machinei-y
being more tight.
42521. Then they will never cease until there is no more liciuor? No.
42522. You first spoke as if you did not know whether people got !ii|Uor or nut
under a prohibitory law ; might the people get lit|Uor? -Y'es, but the man whom I saw
was drunk.
4252.'{. Put you think the fact of seeing a man drunk was no evidence that the
hou.ses were selling on Sunday / -No; I do not kiujw where he got the liquor or wlu-n.
637
Liquor Tmflic — British Columbia.
W. J. McGl'IGAN, M.D., of Viuifou\er, on Iwinji dulyVworn, (h-poswl as follows: —
liij Jiif/i/f Mrlhmaltl :
42o24. Are you a physician lieii- ? — Yes. and suiffeon.
42oL'"». I understand, from a paper lmnde<i to me, tliat you are also Mtjdical Health
Officer lierH? — Yes.
4'jr)i'G. Ami also coroner'? — Yes.
\'l^yl~. And also an Alderman of this city ? Yes.
4'_'">28. How lonji have you resided in British Colund)ia /--I have Imh-m here since
1885.
4-'")L'9. Have you resided all that tinie in Vancouver ,' No, I residetl in the Rocky
Mountain district, at Donald.
4*J.");{U. Were you on railway construction f — 1 was one of the surgeons on the
Canmlian Pacific Railway.
4'Jo-'>l. Did you come here from one of the other provinces/ — I am a native of
Stratford. Perth County, Out.
4_'."):{-2. Mad you any experience in the J{<tcky Mountain dis'rict of the pn>hil)ition
of th»' traftic in li)|Uor ? — Yes, that whole district was umler pivhihition.
\'l'y.V.\. Was that under the Railway Act oi Pulilic Works Act f Yes.
42r»;U. How did it work '(-—Any ({uantity of li<|Uor was to Ik* got.
4'_*").'}."i. How was it got in ? - It was smuggled in.
4"_'")."it). In what manner ? — In barrels and in every way. I know you could get a
drink whenever you wanted it, if you ha<l Lhe money with which to pay foi- it. It was
50 cents a drink in Donald, and it was jH)isonous stutK
425;$7. Was ale also obtainable? — I do not remendjer seeing any.
42-"i."J8. Were there otticei-s who attempted to prevent the sale / — The place was full
of otWcei-s, l>oth |)olice and army, for it was aljout the time of thi> North-west relwllion.
425.'{9. Did those officers attempt to stop smuggling? — I do not know much what
they did. 1 undprstoo<l from them that they ti'ied to seize li(pior.
tl'540. Do you know what class of people brought in liquor? — Men regularly
employed in the business.
4"_'5J1. Was any brought in from the United States ?— All of it was. I was told
that a great deal of it was taken from Spokane Falls, and it was afterwards taken down
the Columbia River.
42542. Hius there always been a license law in force in X'ancouver since you have
lived here J Yes.
42543. How have you found it work, satisfactorily? — Yes.
42514. Have you had anything to do otKcially with the License Commissioners?—
No, I hii.ve nothing to do with the Licensing Roard.
42545. Speaking as a citi/en, do you think tiie law is well ob.served in regard to
the Sunday closing? On Sunday you can always have a drink if you want it.
4254t>. At licen.sed places? — I do not know that e\ery one can get one, but any
on>- who is ac(|uainted can do so.
42547. As much .so as on week days? — Yes.
42548. Have you, as an alderman, called the attention of the police to the violations
of the law ? — I have not.
42549. Do you know whether there is sale of litpior to young people ? — I could not
answer that <piestion ; I do not know anything about it.
42550. Do you know whether liquor is .sold to men who are drunkards or are under
the influence of liquor so as to be incapable? — I could not swear alwiut it. but T think
the hotel men exercise a cei'tain amount of discretion. I have seen fellows at the bar
drinking, who were pretty well advised.
42551. Still liquor would be serve<l to them? — Yes. \
42":52. Wei-e those men drunk ? — Not exactly ; they were exhilarated.
4255.1. Then the licen.se law is not observed ? — ^Not strictly according to the full
letter of the law, I think it reduces materially the amount of drinking on Sunday.
W. J. McCJuiuAX.
638
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4'_'r)r)l. It' in some of the lifenscd jilaces in Vuni-uiivfr on Suiuliiv lii|Uoi' is sold for
Ijevcra^e pur|H)Kes, is that not an open and Hii^i'ant violation of one of tiie provisions of
the law ? — The individuals who are doin^ that are jumping in tlie face of tlie hiw no
<iou)it.
i'2'y)'}. I)o you thinlv sui'li persons siiould l>e jwi'mitteil to retain licenses/ I tiiink
if \'ou were to talte away their licenses on that ;rround, you would not have any in the
town.
42")5(). Do you not think this could Ix^ cari-ied out ! -You would have to lia\e a
superior (^lass of men in the trade compared with those now in it.
42")57. CouUJ you not ;;et them ! — I do not tiiink you could j^et a lietter lot.
425r)M, So, in your opinion, the im'ii who aiv disposed to gu into the trallic are men
who are li<(uor law i)reakers J - Yes.
4l'5.">9. Why is a class of mt-n selected out of a connnunity and given a privilege
which is not given to other pc pie, who at the same time take uj>on themseUes the
obligation of obeying the law and who are yet it appeal's violating the law .' Would the
penalty of doing away with the man's license be too severe /--That is asking me too
much. I siiould not like to makea sttitenienton thut point. It is a generally recognizetl
tiling, and no person attaches any great importance to it.
42500. How can you expect the police of a city like this, charged with the luiminis-
tration of the law, to be able to tlo tlieii- duty, if the bulk of the citizens do not wish
that duty done? No one ex])ects the police to do this work ; the great majority of the
)>eople do not exjject that from the police ; in fact tliey do not want to encourage the
police too much in that way.
42r»()l. You think that is tlie .sentiment of the people in Vancouver / I do.
4'_'r)()2. We have it in evidence that Vancouver is an ortlerly and law-abiding place /
I tliiuk it is.
425G;1. Yet you think the majority of the peojtle are favourable to the breaking nt
the law pas.sed by the T.iegislature / The way I judge the matter is this : laws are nut
always considere<l by the people as just.
4l'")G4. Do you consider the Sunday closing law as just /-—I think legislation is
sometimes carried in advance of public sentiment.
4"J5(}r). Y'ou are in favour of Sunday closing. 1 believe? Yes.
Jiy Rev. Dr. Mr Lend:
4"J.')66. Do you think tho.se restrictions about the litpior tratKc are unjust / I do
not think they do much justice. I should like to see the houses closed on Sunday, or
at least the front doors <'losed for the sake of appearances ; it gives the city a better
liM>k.
42567. Y<m would not mind what was done in the premises'/ If the people londuci
themselves in an orderly manner, 1 would not minii what they did.
4256iS. Do you think icstrictions on the litpior tratKc are unjust ? I <lo not think
they probably do much goiKl to morals.
42561). That is not answer to the (|uestioii. Are those restrictions unjust / I do
not know how to answer that (piestion.
42570. Do you think there would be more or less drinking if the restrictions wei'e
removed? — I do not think there would be as much ; the change would l)e in the kind of
liipior, that is all.
42571. Have you observed wliether tliere has been a change in the drinking habits
of the people of late years? — No, I clo not think so.
42572. You are also coroner in this town? -Vos.
4257.'l. Are you called upon fre(|uently to hol'l in<|Uests / Yes.
42574. Do you keep any record of them ? I certainly do.
42575. Can you recall with anything like accuracy your recoixls, so as to enable you
to say whether any proportion of the untimely deaths on which you have held impiests
were traceable directly or indirectly to the drink tratlic and the drink habit? — The last
ca.se was a murder case and the men were .sober who committed the murder. I think
some of the cases have Ixjen due to dtinking.
639
/
Liquor Trattic — British Columbia,
m
42570. l)i) you think 25 per cent wei-e due t<> tlmt cause?— No, I <lu not.
42577. }iow long have you been a physician? — Since 187l>.
4257W. Is total abstinence compatible with tlie best health ?— My experience is that
it is not so. I think men who use liquor in nicKleration have l)etter lieaith and are
more capable.
42579. Is habitual niiKlerate drinking harmful or hainiless ? — I do not think
moderate drinking is harmful.
42580. We find that the term moderate is ijuite a variable one. Will y<ni detiue
moderate drinking? -It is pretty hard to define. On this coast the drinking is very
mixlerate. In examining for insurance companies I put down three drinks a day as a
limit for candidates.
42581. Speaking about insurance: are insurance men vei-y careful about accepting
risks on men who are mcKlerate drinkers? — They do not object at all U> taking men who
are mmlerate drinkers.
42582. Do they object to take risks on li(|Uor sellers? — Yes, 1 think they do.
42583. Do they object even to do so when the li(|Uor sellers are total altstainers? —
I do not think so. I have not had a ciuse of that kiM<l, but I am almost certain tliey
would not like to do so, because there would be no sense in having a rule whieh they
did not carry out. So far as an individual was concerned, there would be no objection
if he was a total .vbstainer.
42584. Are bar-tenders regarded as e.xceptional lisks l)ecause of the danger sup-
l)Osed to be likely to ari.se in bar-rooms? — No.
42585. Other things l)eing e(|ual, has a total abstainer any better expectation of
life than an habitual drunkard?— I was looking over the statistics, and I found that the
nuKlerate drinker has the advantage, if there is any. The report I reail is one
published annually on the subject of mortality. There wius an aiticle on the
t|Uestion of drinking, and the conclusion reached was, that the total abstainer
did not live as long as might In* expected. He and the moderate drinker were
just alxtut on the same level. I know a lot of total abstainers, and they are all sickly
individuals, dyspeptics, and if they drank occasionally, it would do them good.
42586. You think that most of them are dyspeptics and siikly ? Yes, and 1 think
they w'oukl be all the better if they took li(|Uor in miKleration.
42587. In case of serious illness oi- accident, do you think the total abstainer has
any better chance of recovery than the moilerate drinker? — No, I do not.
42588. Has he any better chance than the excessive drinker / — Certainly. The
excessive drinkei' is an entirely different jier.son.
42589. Other things being eijual, do you think the children of habitual drinkers
are more likely victims to nerve ami brain troubles and physical weakne.s.ses ? — If the
l)arents used liquor to excess, they would.
42590. Does a man ever u.se li(]Uor to v-xce.ss who does not get drunk 1 - Yes.
42591. Have you examined the recoi'ds of lunacy ?- I have examined quite a num-
ber of lunatics.
42592. Have ycm noticed whether drinking is a cause of lunacy? — Those whom I
examinefl were all strangers to me, and I did not know their pei-.sonal history.
42593. What is your opinion about that ? — I do not think drinking has anything
to do with it.
42594. \'ou say that the drinking done here is moderate. Is it not the sjame else-
where? — The drinking heie is greater than in the east.
42595. A\ lat is your observation oi the effect <if drinking alcohol, in tlie long run?
- A man who drinks to excess is Ixnind to suffer in the long run.
42596. What is the effect on moderate drinkers, in the long run? — It would not
interfere in regard to his physical condition. The alcohol affects the stomach and other
internal organs when taken to excess.
42597. So the standard would be the same in one place as in another, but in one
conmuinity there would be a different ttpinion in regard to it?— Yes.
42598. What is that standard ? I could not swear to that. T am not refined enough
to know what the standard would be.
W. J. McGuioAN.
640
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
42591). You arc lu'iiltli oMicer .' Yes, but my dutii-s us hciiltli utHi-cr do not ifill iiic
into saloons especially-
42600. What are your duties ius health ortieer / To see that tiie Piil)iir Health .\tt
is carried out, and that people jienerally are vaccinated, --o as to |irevent the spread of
sn)all-pox, and to do work of that kind.
42001. Do you find it ditKcult toenforce tiie health rej^idations .' I find it necessary
to have two polict^men with me sometimes wheji I do it.
42002. EverylMwly does not submit readily, then.' .Not to ^•llc(■ination.
42003. There is dithculty as there is with the Sunday law. I supp<»se f Yes ; if yiiu
had a ])oliceman tt» every saliKin you mij;ht carry out the law.
42004. It would .seem to l)e yotii' idea that saloon- ke»'pers are persistent andclirunic
law-breakers? — I did not mean that. They sell prol)abiy a drink a day illef;ally. That
is m)t consideiM'd a very j{rie\(tus oHence aj^ainst the law of the land, altliou^h it nii;;ht
1)6 against high morality.
4200"). Y'ourevideiice reminds meof the evidence we had in Halifax. The lns|iectcir
of Licenses stated that he did his best to enforce the prohibitory provisions of the law,
but he ti'hnitted under examination that it would lie imiMjssible to carry them out, uid^ss
there was a policeman for every licensed place in the city, and even then he could not
certify that it would l)e done/ — F think he was right.
4200(5. And he ailmitted that they were opei» law-breakiM's. You seem to lie driving
at the .same thing concerning license dealers in V^ancouver. Is ihat what you mean to
say? — You draw a very sweeping conclusion, and put my statement in the very worst
light. What I mean to say is. that you can get a drink in any place in town, but snfar
as the law is concerned, tho.se inter«'sted in the trade, and jn-obably the conniiunitv, sav
that it is altogether too strict. While they want to regulate the li'ade. they do not
want to be too severe.
42007. Is there any regulation? There is. Every Tom, hick and Hairy cannot
get a drink.
4200H. Only the inner circle ,'-- To some extent you are right.
42()00. Is it comjirised of those who will not give away the dealer ? Thev are imt
supposed to go and talk alniut it outside ; they are not supposed to be sjiies on the lintel
men by any means.
42010. As parties to the violation of the law, they have no resjinnsibility ? - I do
not tliink they take any responsibility.
.'{2011. As an alderman of the city, do you think you have no responsibility.' I
consider that, as an alderman of the i-ity, it is my duty to see that the law is not violated
t<M> flagrantly.
42612. Is there any difference between flagrant violation and violation .' 1 think so.
42613. Is it an accommodating term '. -1 tliink flagrant violations arcclifl'ercnt from
ordinary peccadillos. I think it is generally admitted among all classes of peo|ile that
the "c diflerences in crime.
4i:614. Then the inner circle are not at all responsible ? 1 do not knov\ what
resjxmsibility they take upon themselves. T do not like to be asked to make statements
for them, as I am not their <'onfe.s.sor.
By Judije Mi'Dotmhl :
42015. From your knowledge of the Province as a whole, do you think a general
prf)hibitory law, a law to prohibit the manufacture, importation and sale of alcoholic
liciuors for beverage purposes, if eiitacted, could be enforced I A certainly do not.
42010. What would be the difliculties in the way of its enforcement ,' Kverylxidy
would be in the business of importing li<]Uor, and I do not know how it would bi-
jwssible to carry out such a law.
42017. Incase such a law were enactetl, would you deem it right and just that
brewers and distillers should be compensated for loss of plant ajid iiiachinery rendered
useless I -Certainly. Why not ?
42018. Do you believe that the jiresent Sunday closing law is a good law ? Yes.
42019. Would your favour any further amendment t<i the law ? The present law,
I believe, makes those men liable to be fined for ofi'ences against the law ? -Yes.
641
21—41**
Liquor Traffic — Ihitish Columbia.
42<)20. Would you huv*' an luiuMuliiicnt iidoptfd so jus to niiike liable the person who
icliascil drink 1 -I tried t(» pass such a law in tlie Citv Council, and could not pass it.
This
put
I am in favour of that.
By Ifev.Dr. McLeod:
42G2I. Do you think any law can he enf«>rce(l in Urilish Columbia ? — Yes,
province is just as gcMKl as Ontario, 1 think.
42fi'J"J. So other laws are enforc***! here tiMlay. in some decree,' -I think they are.
4'J()2."l. You have said that brewers and distillers sliould lie conijM'nsated for loss of
plant and machinery. Why comi>ensate them if their business would not l>e intc^rfereci
with / You havi' said that a prohibitory law would not interfere with the trade, and
why therefore .should tliey be compensiited ! I would compensate them bc^cause our
brew(M's and distillers would not be able to manufacture as they do now. They would
have to chanj^e the whole system of manufacture. !rresj)onsililc persons would be in
the business instead of men like (iiMKierham and Worts, and Walker ; inferior liipior
would be |)r(Hluced, and the morals of the people would 1m' deinorali/.e<l.
42(»24. Have you observ«Ml whether the li(|uor trade is demorali/.in^ at all? — I
l)elieve that \ would not want to keep a bar myself.
42025. Why not f — You would come into conta<t
not l)e willing; to meet every day of the week.
42(')2r). Do you mean the inner circle ! — No, it is
circle not so pleasant to meet.
42627. Ah re<;ards compensation : would you caiTV it still further ',' lliere are
people who claim that the li(|Uor trade has intlicted dama;;r on all classes. Would y<»u
compensate those for dainajre received ? What claim ilo they make /
42028. Families claim that the trathc has dania<;ed and e\en ruined their sons, and
wives say that the triule liiis ruined their husbands, and otiier jieople say that it reduced
the wa<;e earninji power of men and all that sort of tliini;. Is this all mere sentiment ,'
Do you think it ri<;lit that claims should 1m' presented by all tlio.se parties ?— I do not
know h(tw you would pay the claims.
4202!). Moreover, if the trade were prohibitetl. would you comj^wusate those men
who would be unable to <{et drinks.'- No, I would not.
' Jiji Jndgii McDinuild
420;{0. You have attempted, as an alderman of the city, to secure an amendment of
the law that would punish the man who drinks in a licensed house on Sunday, but you
with p'ople whom you would
ill risjlit ; but there is an 'juter
Tl
-Yes, 1 wanted to put it in the law. 1
.say you were not alili; to secure tliat provision
think that not only the bar-teiuler should be punished but the man who wanted tli'
drink sold to liim.
420:U. What was the etl'ect of your proposal ,'- They lau;;lied at it. They said that
1 wanted to punish the man who wanted the drink and not the bar-tender. I believe if
you fine the bar-tender, ynu should also tine the man who wants the drink ; he caused
the offence by the i)af-tendei-.
W. J. McGUlOAN.
642
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
J. K. MILLARiee.il led.
//// Jiufi/fi McDniiiihl :
42().'?2. We uii(U'rstiiiicl tluit Itoimid is in your district! — Yes, I take the whole
inaiidaiid mid ^(i <i.s far as (.iohleii.
42Ci.{.'{. Tliat is al)out tlie hist phice on the line, I Ih'lieve ? Yes.
i:i(5.'U. Was there at one time a boi»ded warehouse at Donahl ! -Yes, u\> to within
the last few months.
42<)l?r). By whom was it kei)t / IJy J. 0. Steene, who ran a hotel in Donald.
42().'{(). Have you any ti;jures showing the (quantities of li(|Uor liandU^l duriiii{ the
past two years ? Yes. Up to that time it was part of the Victoria division. The
statement T have is as follows :
Si'inrrs: K.\ wurfliouMcil at Dniiiilil, li.C, iliniiij< the yottrn I8!M1 !»l and ISiil !)•_•.
IS!M)-!>I. S|iirits t-x -waruluiUHed for cuiiHiiiiiptidii $vJ7.'{,!Mil
I Sit I !»•-'. " " 'Jx-vrjut
III my o|>iiiii)ii, MO ikt cent of tlii.s i|uantity went into thu Territoruw.
.1. K. MILLAK.
4"J().'{7. Are you ahle to speak as to the disposition made of that li(|uor / In pa«sini(
through Donald tin.' Commissioners would (^ain an idea of what the town is. About
20 per cent of the liipior was sold theiv and the balance went into the North west Terri-
tories. As .soon as the license system came intc; foi'ce in the North west Tei'ritories the
business was dro|)ped, JM-cause there was no further sale there for the liiiuor
4'J'!;{8, Did the keejHM- give bonds to the Government/ — Yes, as is the case with
all bonded wareh<tust's.
4203'.). Was there an officer there to keep an eye on the licpior ! ^'es.
42()40. Was the place closed after the new law camt? in / Yes.
KI>WAUD (JDLI' ^L of Vancouvei', tire insurance agent, tju being duly sworn,
deposed as follow.s : —
Bi/ Jii(f</e Mi'Doiuthl :
42041. How long have you lived in liritish Columbia? About tVnir years.
42042. Have you live<l all that time in Vancouver ? -No, I have been backwanl>
and forwards to Ontai-io three times, and once down to .\usti'alia. I have been settled
here perhaps three years.
4204."V Did you <'ome from Ontario originally /— Yes.
42044. From what county? I was in several counties; T was in Peel County a
number of years, and llalton and North Henfrew.
42()4(). Have you had any e.xperience of a jiroliibitory law in those counties ,' The
Scott Act was tried in Henfrew while 1 was there.
42040. Do you mean that the Act was votetl upo > i Yes; it was enforced part of
two years.
42047. Were you i-esiding thei'e all the time ? — Yj s. < hving to the conflict between
the Provincial (jtovei'nmeni and the Dominion (Jovenuuent they did nut tiy to enforce
it the thinl year. They were then attempting to enforce the McCarthy Act.
42048. Why was there a contlict between the two (Jovernments? Two sets of
otticers were trying to enforce the law. Until the second Inspector came on the scene
the law was well enforced.
42049. What became of the Act itself ? During the last year it was a dead letter.
I think the people "•')ted on it again and returned to th<' old measure.
420o(). The Act wa.s repealed, at all events '. Yes.
420r)l. Seeing the working of the law as you did, at what opinion did you arrive as
regartls its operation? — During tlie tirst year or eighteen months, it rwluced drinking
very materially. .
643 ..•<
21-4H**
Liquor Tiattic — British Columbia,
4'2('h>'2. Ill what part of th«' county did you live !— In Penibroki-.
42<)r).'?. Was there ivny ditticulty uwiri^' to li<|Uor U-ing brought over from thf Qu«-
liec side of the river ? — Yes, from Alluniett*- Tshind ami soini' smaller islaiuls on the
(.Quebec side.
42()r>4. You, of foui-so, liati many lundiernien in and aljout Pembroke? — Yes, there
are a g<MKl numy there.
■t'JfiJi'). You have a lieense law here, we understand ? — Yes.
42656. Do you Hnd it work .satisfactorily I —So far as [ can see, it works as satis-
factorily as license laws in otlier place.s.
42657. Are you opposed to license .' I wi»uld faxour prohibition, if I thought the
people were prepared for it : but I am confident that they are not prepared, and I am
.Siitistied that the (Joverinnent would not attempt to enforce it.
t265,H. As a matter of principle you favoin* jirohibition .' — I co..id scarcely say in
that particular how far T am prej>arwl to go. I would n«it ]ir<ihibit the manufacture of
li({Uor ; I would let it be used in drug stores jis a rlrug.
4265!). You will understand that when I sjM-ak of jirohiliition I mean prohibiting
the sale of, or manufacture or importation of liipior for l»everage purposes, [t could be
used for sacramental, medicinal and mechanical pur|M>ses. — As a matter of principle, I
would favour prohibition.
42660. Failing prohibition, would you favour license or the untiannnelled sale of
liipior / — License by all means.
42<)61. Coming to the (|uestion of the )ira<-ticability of prohibition, you think that
at pres»^nt it would not be practicable ? It would not be.
42662. What would be the difficulties in the way ? — I tliiiik the chief difficulty
would be that the majority of the people on this <-ojist would not favour it.
4266.S. Do you believe that you nmst have a large majority in favour of such a law
in order to make it a success J— -I do indeed.
42664. tn case of the enactment of such a law. do you think it would be proper to
remunerate brewers and distillers for loss of plant and machinery? — If they had t*i
cease their bu.siness (ptickly, as a result of that law, and they fuff'ered loss, they should
be compensated.
426(i5. Taking this community as you have found it, ilo you consider that it is a
.sober and law-abiding community f Comparing this with other new cities, I think it is
orderly and sober. There is less thinking here than in a great many of tlie seaport cities
I have l)een in.
42666. Were you in Australia any length of time I — Aliout si.\ months.
42667. What system was in force there in regaifj to the licpior traffic ?- A license
system.
42668. Does it work very much on the same lines as it does liere? — Very much the
same. The only ditt'erence I found was that in some places they had two bars, and even
four bars. I .saw more drinking there than in any otlier place in which I have been.
That was at MellMiurne. f
42669. Were you in the inland tow tis -Yes, and I found the same state of things
prevailed.
42670. Do you think that the temperance and church swieties have e.xercised a
good influence on the j)eople here? Yes. I may state, as you have asked for informa-
tion, that I have been in Japai^for over two years : and if there are any <|ue.stions you
wish to ask in regard to that countiy, I shall be glad to answer them.
42671. How is the liquor traffic liandled there? — They have a licen.se .system there.
Until latel)- the custom was to drink the liquor known as saci, a sweet drink made from
rice. Drinking was very general there, but the ptdicemen were always on the watch
and would take a man up if he got in the least drunk. In fact you could not get out
of sight of the police, as they were everywhere, and there were so numy of them. Ljibour
is cheap there, and of course it was ea.sier to have a large nunilter.
42672. Were you in China ?— No.
4267.'l. We understiind that you have (piite a large Chinese population here. Is
drunkenness very frequent among them here ? — No ; they are very seldom charged with
being drunk.
Edward Odlum.
644
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
42<574. Hiivf yi>u Immmi iii tin- Fiji Islunds ,' I whn tlifif, liiit I did nut study 'li<'
systfiii.
4*_MJ7.'">. Tli«' (.'oiiiiiiiMsioiHTs liiiM- Immmi told liy tin- Hfs. l>r. .SU'wurt, i)f Sinks illt-
rnivei-sity, tlmt ilie Fiji Islands i'(tnstituU> IIk- only pliirc where a total [iroliiliitory law
prevails ^ I did not tliiiik of asking; anytliiii^ al>oiit it. I liiul a convt'i'satioii witli a
missionary tlicD- aliout tlif lial>its and ciistonis of tlic |H'o|ilt', Will as to wlii-tlici' a |>ro-
liiliit<»ry law or a license law was in fon-e tli«Te, I lia\'e no recollect i< in.
t"J(t7t). I)o you know whether tluit missionary is residing in Canada.' No, he is
not : he is in MellMiurne.
liy li'r. 1),: MrL,.„>l:
t2t)77. You said you were an insurance a;»ent. l)o you know if the com]iaiiies you
represent make special rates for property adjoinin;; li(|Uor stores.' Of course litpior
stores aiv chai'ifed a hij;her rate than onlinary dwellinj^s. It is a littledilficult to explain
that matter. Tin-re are rates according to the risk. Of course there is a liase rate and
al>o a base rate for hotels.
4L'()7f'. Is a jtrivate dwellin<r adjoining a liipioi' stoi-e charj;ed a hij^her rate? Yes.
4l.'(j71t. Is that rate Jiecause of the proximity of 'he li<|Uor stoi'e ? Yes.
IS a
it is
; cities
CHAULKS WII.Ll.XM lU)BSON, of Vancouver, on hein-i iluly sworn, deposed
as follows :—■
Hif Jiulgf McDdtiuld :
4:i()S(). What is your business occupation? I am th<' manajfer of the Hudson I'ay
CoMipanv's stores here. We have four stores here.
4-Jt)Sl. In the city .'— \'es.
4'_M)f<2. What lines of business are cari'ied on ! Dry jjooilsaud ^I'oceries. and wines
and li(|uors.
[■Jfi)^;}. The business is carri«Hj on in the same way here as in Winnijie^aml N'ictoria,
and other places, I suppose \ — Yes.
42G84. What class of license have you ! We have a retail shop license for the sale
of li(juor.
4lJl)f<-'t. In what ijuantities are you allowed to sell? Not less than one pint.
4l.'<i.st). Not to 1k' drunk on the jjremises ? -Yes.
4'26(<7. How lonj; h;iv<' you lived in Vancouver? Three years.
t'268S. How long have y<ju lived in llritish Columbia? Kight years.
42681). In what ((tlier jiarts of the i)ro\ince have you resided; I li\ed in Kam-
l<K>ps for twelve months, and 1 also lived in Victoria.
42690. Did you come Ihm'c fi'om one of the other provinces? — No, I am an Knglish-
luaii.
42691. Taking the province as you liavt? .seen it, how do you lind the licen.se law
work here? — I think it luis worked all right ; I have not seen iinything out of the way.
42692. Do you think the people in this coimuunity are .solier anil law aliiding ? Yes,
as far as I liave seen. t
4269.S. Tliere i.s, of course, a greater population here than in the inland cities ? - Ye.s.
42694. Have v-ou had any experience of a prohibitory law- ? None wiuitever.
42695. From your knowledge of British Columbia, do you think a general jirohibi-
tory law could Ik- enforced in this piovince ? No.
42696. Do you think there would lie smuggling ? — Ye.s.
42697. Tlie li(|Uors sold by vou, I suppose, are all imported ?— Not all ; some of
them are manufactured in CanaiJa.
42698. The liquoi-s you sell have all I )een carefully rectified? — Yes; the (Jovern-
nient requires that.
645
i !
Liquor Trafflc— British Colniiibia.
42099. A witnt'Ns wIki j(avo evidotu-e in Victoria or Niiiiaimo nrKcd tliat an injus-
tice wiw diint' to the Canadian manufacturei's in the fact tliat t'oieij^n ii<|Uoi-s are allowed
to come in that may not havelieen rectitied, while Canadian liijuors were rei|uired t(t he
kept two years for rectification piirposi^s ; and that some system should Im- lulopted to
place the im{iorted liijuors on the same hasis. What is your view / 1 think im|Htrte<i
li<|Uors should l)e placed (.n the same footin<{.
42700. There is no inspection made of forei^jn liquors ? -Yes. l)y the Customs.
42701. Tn case of the enactment of a ;i;eneral proliihitory law. would you deem it
ri>,'ht that brewers and distillers should be com}>ensated for loss of plant and machinery '(
— Yes, I think they should.
42702. Can you suggest any amendment to the license law as it now exists ?
1 cannot.
Hi/ Rev. Dr. MiLeod :
42703. You are manager of the whole Hudson Bay Company here / -Yes, of the
whole of it.
t2704. Do you think the license law here is well observed? — Yes.
4270"). Then you <io not agree with Dr. Mcduigan's view of it? — Perhaps I have
not seen as much of it as he has.
42700. Have you an opportunity of observing how the license law is carried out ? —
Not any more than by walking round the town.
42707. Speaking of tlit; two years which sp;; Is have to be kept for rectificati<m
purposes in this country, do you knew whether it is in the interests of the distilling
monopolies or of the people? — I could not say that. It certainly keeps some people out
of the trade who would go into it if they could sell liquor as soon as it was made. It
costs an immense amount of money t<^) keep it two years. We get, however, a better
class of licjuor, for li(|uor is not as good when it is new as afterwards, and it keeps an
undesiiable cla-ss of people out of the trade. If this arrangement of keeping the li(juor
two years gives the manufacturers a monopoly of the business, in that way they are
gainers.
42708. Then you think th»y are both gainers and losers ? — Yes, and the public is
in so much because the people are given a better ([uality of liquor.
42709. How long have you heeu manager of the Hudson Bay company's business
here ? — Over three years.
12710. You manage and control all branches of the liusine.ss here? — Yes.
Jii/ Judge MrDonnId :
42711. Have you ever been in Alaska ?-
-No.
JOHN DEVINE, of Vancouver, agent, on being <luly sworn, deposed as follows :^ —
By Judge MrDonidd :
42712. In what line of busine.ss are you engaged ? — In collecting.
42713. How long have you been in British Columbia? — Seven years.
42714. Did you come here from one of the other provinces? — I came here from
jNIanitobn.
42715. Have you had any opportunities of observing the working of the license
law ? -I am one of the Board of License Commissioners.
42710. Appointed by the City Council ? — ^No, by the Oovernment.
42717. Is the Boai-d for the city of Vancouver? — Yes.
42718. Speaking as a Commissioner, are there any amendments that, in your
opinion, aie desirable at the present time ? — Speaking broatUy of the law, if it weie
enforced, we would have a \ery fine city.
CHAKLE8 William Robsox.
646
' I
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4271'.>. TIm'Ii you tliiiik tliat this is a nmul law as it stands? Prptly ){<j<»<I, hut it
is not enforced.
42720. Ai'«' tlier« any ainfiuinKMits yuu could suj;j{cst to the i'oininissiim in n-jjard
to the license law ? There are.
42721. Wiiat are they/ — There is the ijuestion ot' supplyinj^ li(|U<ir in the
I'estaurants. You seem to l)e ahle to m'i it on Sunday and week days
42722. You mean in what are (tailed sakM>ns?--No : they do not ),'i\e t'lMxl there.
There are restaurants attached to many of the hotels, and by visiting theni |>eo|>le can
get liquor at any time.
42723. You mean people who j^o theie ?— They ;;et a l»iscuil and sandwich with
their licpiur.
42724. Ts that according to the law ?- They are getting food, and they can obtain
drink at the same time.
42725. You would do away with that privilege ? -Certainly.
4272(>. Have you any further suggestions to otter? — N«>, I do not know of any at
the pre.sent time. This is the tiist year, and the law is yet on trial.
42727. You are now under a new city charter, I Iwlieve ? — Ye.s, and the trouble is
that it is liable to be altered at any time by the ^layor and aldtM-men ; it can be
amended. At the present time the numlx-r of licenses is fixed at o"), imd I think the
number will be increased after a certain population at the rate of f>ne license to 1,000
people. Then there is at the pi'esent time a number of .saliMins, the number being fixed.
Suppo.se that one .suloon-ktieper dies or tin; license is cancelled, that cannot be reinstated
at the present time ; but the ti'ouble is that by an amendment the law can be altered at
any time.
4272H. We understocxl that this city generally works under the provisions of the
law ? — ^Yes ; but the Mayor and aldermen can amend the law.
42729. Do you mean that you would not giv«' the Mayor jMtwer in this matter? — [
am oppo.sed to saloons. There are some g(H»d ones that ai-e kej)t in i>roper order, l>ut
there are othei's that ai-e not s<j ke]>t.
42730. Are j'ou opposed to .saloons on ])rinciple ? — Yes.
42731. Do you think it would be better if there was a law pro-, Kling for the
almlition of saloons ? — Ws.
42732. Have you ever consiilei-ed the (juestion whether if the hotel bai- or the
salcMjn had to l)e abolished, which it would be better to dis|)ense with .' 1 would favour
retaining the hotels, becau.se men can get meals there, and as a I'ulc they are better
kept. I merely say as a rule, for of course there are some g<KKl sijloons.
42733. There are two views put forward. The first is, that |)eople go to an hole!
and drink who would not go to a saloon, and it is urged that the liotel in this way docs
more harm. Have you taken this point into accouiit ?- I have considered that point;
still 1 am inclined to think the hotel is better than the saloon.
42734. Are there any amendments to the law you can suggest? — There is one in
regaitl to the hour of closing. In many places the law is moi'e strict in regard to
clo.sing than in Vancouver.
42735. I think it was put forward by one of the witne.s.ses in regard to N'ancouvtT
that owing to vessels arriving here at all hour.s, the restrictions should not be so great ?
- The vessels arriving would not affect any one.
42736. Would you favour having a certain closing hour at night on week days? Y'es.
42737. And would you favour closing from Saturday until Monday morning? — I
should say that the Sunday law should be rigidly enforced.
42738. Have you any knowledge as to whether the law is enforced or not I — It is
nt)t, l)ecause you can see men tijjsy on the streets.
42739. Do 3'ou know whether the men bought liquor on that day, or whether they
hiid bought it on some previous day and had it at home? — They would not be the sort
of f)eople wlio would have li()uor at home.
42740. Has the attention of the police btvn called to this matter? 1 piesume .so.
42741. By you? — By our Board; we pass re.solutions. I happened a few moments
ago to be looking at this Ixiok, and T find that the duties of the License Inspector are
prescrilied. •
647
laiiuor Traffic — British Columbia.
tl.'7t'.'. It a|)|N>urs lliiit till' liis)M-('t<ir of LiicuMf^H i^ also llfiiltli InHpt'ctor.' No ; lit-
is the I'lilici- Couit Cit'ik, tin* .lailcr tintl llu' License liis|(eri<.r.
4274;{. I>n iliese icstiiotiuiis apply to liiiii .' I timl tlie t'olliiwiny |irii\ isimi ;
!M. " .Ah Llri'liNf |nN|HM'tiir :
(I.) H<' mIiiiII liavc Hii|)t'i'viHJiiii iivi'i' all ihtmoiih tii hIhimi lireiiHi'M iiri' ixxiii'il
Cj. ) III' slmll iiiiiki' II tliiii'iiiiKli iiiH|M'rtiiiii of till' iiri'iiiiMt'H miii;,'IiI tn lii' iiii'iisi'il :
I.S.I III- Hliall liiikkr all ilii|ilii'ii'H I'i'liitivi' til iiiuttcl'H luiiiii'rtnl with tlir ^raiitiliK "f IIii'Iihi'm h^
iiiav 1h' ii'i|uii'i'il Id Hi'iiiii,' till' iliii' iilMH'rvaiK'i' of tlii' Uy l.a«H nf llir (iiiiiii il ami tn ii'|Hirt tlirirmi in
liill to till' Ciiiiiiril :
l4. 1 III' nliall viMJI at li'UHt iiiiri' ill ovi'ry iiioiitli, ami nttriiri il iirirNNuiy. I'Vi't'V liiiti'l, Itilliai'il
HiilcHiii, liiiai'iliiiK liiiiiHC or iitlu'i |iiililir liuiiHfH, anil all |iii'iiiiNrH lici'iiMi'il l>y tin' City, for the |iui'|Hmi'
of axrertaitiiiig Mlu'tlicr the |ierHonH lireiiHeil eoni|ily with the provisions of Ity laus ^o\eriiiii^
lieeiiiteH :
l.'i. I He mIuiII iiroNi'i'iite all anil every vjolati'>n anil infiaition of li\ laws afori'Kiiiil, ami lie vigilant
ami aetive in the iliHchaixe of liiM ilnty :
Hi. I He .sliall kee|i a reronl in :i lioiik or iHioliH, the name ami naiiieri of iierHonx a|i|ilyiiii{ for
a lirenxe. the olijt'et ami |iiir|ii»*e thereof, the ilate of the Name, the loeatioii, ili'Mirilitioii, fi/.e, iiiiin
her ami si/e of lieilt'iHiiiiK, ami rharaeter of the hoUNe. .sho|i oi othei |ihii'i' for uliieli a lieenm' is
sought III' granted, the niiiiilier of tiinex the |M'rMoii or iiei'Noiis olitiiinin^' or hohjiiig a license has oi
lime lieen cliurgeil with any hreaeh of the liylawM of the eity. ami any general inforniatiim which
may U' of use a» a reference in the future ;
iT.I He .shall report at leant once in every niiiiitli to the Council all IiIm proceei lings, rogetlier with
astati'iiieiit of all e\peiiseH incurreil in carrying out the liuties of his otiice :
iS. ) All fees ami ciiHts incurreil liy him in the prosecution of otfeinlers against the I" laws, not
otherwise onlereil to lie paid, hIuiII lie |iaid out of the fiimli of the said city,"
4J7I4.' 1)1(1 you call till' atUMitioti of tlm liispt'ctur to tlmse rejiulat ^ f -Tlie
position is this : h*' is in the service of tlu> Licetisi' ('oiinnissiniii'i's. Wi- have a by-law
of our own whii'ii pivoi-iiM oiirselv<?8, anil he siiii|)ly ju't.s as the iloat-il oi'iiers, hut the
Houfil has no powt'f to (li.sciiarge him,
4'_'71'"), Havi' you called his attention to tiie pi'ovisions « itii respect to the Sunday
law iM'iiij; noii-enfofced f -Yes,
4'J7 It). So you hase done youf duty ? -Ye.s.
4"_'7 17. Do you know what the effect of the law has lieeii ! I do not know ; T think
thet'e were one or two convictions inaile after the law came info force.
4l'74S, Some witnesses have stated to the Coininission that tin- law has heen
observed ? It is very much bett«r observed than it was iM-fore : there can Im- no doubi
about that matter,
4"_'74!), You, as a matter of princijile, favour license in preference to prohibition ?
Yes. I do not think prohibition could be carried as we are situated at |ire.sent.
4-'7;">0, You think it would not Iki jiracticable .' t^uite so.
4'2~i')\. What is iiece.ssary to make it practicable / There is a Moating' |Mjpulatioii.
and there are great ojijiortunities for sinufjjjlinc; find everythini; of that kind.
427'")lJ, You find, I sup|Mise, that the ditlerent church and temjM'rafice .societies
are working •leiierally for good ,' — Y'es, I think so.
42753. I suppo.se you Kiid that as the years pass, changes in the social life and
customs have occurred throughout Caniula in this direction as well a.s in other direc-
tions, and especially in regard to drinking I — I think there is as much drinking now as
there was G years ago.
42754. Taking the population here and tlie fact that this is a seaix)rt town, is this
an orderly and law-abiding community ( -There is far more drinking now than I like.
4275."). Ill the event of the enactment of a general iirohibitory law, a law to pro-
hibit the manufacture, iiiiy)ortation and sale of into.\icatiiig liquors for beverage pur-
poses, <lo you think it would be right for brewers and distillers to receive coiTi]iensution
for loss of plant and machinery ( — It would depenil on circumstances and on the length
of time they luul been in business, liecause they have Inseii licen.sed by law to carry on
its manufacture : and of course it would depend un the length of time given them to get
out of the business.
42756. We have been told to-day by the Inland Hevenue officer that although
brewers and distillers are licensed from year to year, when they comjily witli the reijuire-
iiients of the law, it is practically a continuous business ,' Exactly.
John Devine.
648
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
I27')7. Ill t'ai't Wf WfVv liilil tliat ill \ iclnriil lu'clisfs Im.:UIII|- a(tarlii-i| in tlir |i|t'-
iiii-'fs '. IiiiIcimI.
Hi/ II'' r. Ih. .UrLfu,/.
I'JT'if*. You s|i(ikr alMiiit viiilaliiiDs i)t° till- lit't'iisf law. An- llitTi- iitlifi' n ixlatiniis
lliaii tluMiiic Villi iiifiitioiicil, tliat In, saliHiiis where |ieu|ile take a liiscuit iir a .Haii(l«irli
«ith lii|ii(tr nil Siiiiilas' '. Y«'h.
4"J7")t(. In what way .' In re^jiird to sli<i|) lii-<>iiH«>H,
I27ti0. Iht the holder"* nf ,sho|i lieenses \i(>|ate the law .' Yes.
427ti|. hii thev sell lii|U((r hy the ;;laHs, t'ot example .' 'N'es.
427*1:.'. Ma.-* thai eume to iheatlentiiiii of tlieCoiiiniisHioners ? K\eilio<ly knows i(.
(27(>''(. Has no alteiiipt iM-en iiiaile to check that sale ! Not so far.
l-'7til. To M hat <lo you allriliiiie tiiat failure to check the sale? ih-. Mct!iiii.'an
i-.\|>!iiiiie(l tile matter pretty well when he saitl that liie | pie diil not think it iliil any
harm to ;;o into a liceiiseil house and i;et a ;;lass of liipior.
<l.'7ti"). |)o you iwlieve thai licen.se laws rej;ulate the liiisiness when there arc con
slant infractions of the law .' I lH'lie\e the law shoiiltl Ih' strictly eiifor I in e\ei\
particular.
I27<i<i, Who violates the law, and whosediity is it toprevent violations .' You can
not lielp liiit say tlia* it is the duty of the police and the License Inspector. We cannot
do anything; Imt j<ive instructions to tiie otlicers to caiTV out thf* law.
Jl.'7<)7. l>o they atti'inpl to carry out the law ! H>> far as the shop licenses s,'... I dn
not think so.
J'J"'iS. I >o they attempt to lirini; to IwMik hotel kee|M'r> who violate the Sunday
law- .' Ves ; that was done in the tirst instance.
i'2H\\). If would appear, then, tliat tlie license law is not enforced in N'ancouverf
So far as strictly carryinji out the law, it is a perfect dead letter.
12770. think you said jirohihition would Ix- impracticalile on a<'coiint of the pii'
.sent condition of the country. |)o you lielieve in the principle of pi-ohiliition as ap]ilied
to the litpior t rathe f I like it well.
N// Jin/f/i- Mcl>iiniihl :
42771. Moyoii think the violations have Ix'en more than the prosecutions.' Not
alto;;ether, perha|is. I may say that there is a i;''»'"t sentiment here against lieiiiy an
iiitormer.
42772. Does the same feeliny; prevail in rejfard to informin;^ alniut l)ur;rlaries and
tliefts ! — No; it applies only t(» the liipior traHic.
4277."{. Wiiy '. The |M'ople do not uonsiih-r it is a serious hreach of the law. They
look upon it as a hreach of the law, hut nothing; wroii;; in itself.
42774. In this city, which piiys the hi<;her license, the saloon or the hotel .' The
saliMdi. We asked tht License lioard to reduce the license fee on ll.i- slioj)s. We con-
sidered the dilFerence Wetvveen .'?40U and !?.")()0 tiM) small. We asked that the shop license
should he reduced to S2-">(). The reason };iven for refusin;; was. that it would reduce the
revenue of the city too much.
4277i"i. What fee diH's the saloon pav : .■?.")00 ; the slujp keeper -irlfK), and the
liotel S200. The lar;.'e8t sum is paid by the saloon-keepei', and he says that it is not fair
that tlie shop-keeper should do a In-tter triule than he diM's. Not one of them, however,
wants to Ixwomean informer.
42770. Y'ou are a License (Joininissioner, we understand ! Yes.
42777. Would you he willinj^ to inform against offenders .' -I have not stated per-
sons who were offenders, although I have a pretty jjcMid idea an to those that .sell.
42778. Is there anything' U> prevent you from layinj; an information with the police
uifainst such offendt.rs ; There is ; hut I would rather not say what it is.
4277!). The law would allow you to he an informer '.— There is no law alniut it. It
is a ({uestion of going to those estahlishinents and bringing Ciuses against them, reniem-
lieiing that the persons who fretjuent them and take liipior are peisons occupying very
high positions.
649
I !
Si"
il
Liquor Traffic— British Columbia.
4l'7SO. If there is an evil in tlie coniniunity, whv cin not you and j'our associates
remove it ? — T dare say we niiglit try. I have never felt it to i)c my special <luty. We
pay a man to ItMtk after tliat matter, and lie is the one who shniiid do his duty.
4'_'7H1. You say it is not your duty to do so .' — \ have nevei looked upon this mat-
ter in the lijfht that I should j)ersonally act and do this.
427H-2. Take an example. We all know that in many communities there is formed
an association foi' the protection of animals from ciuelty, and this association sees that
the law is ob.served, and further, institutes proceediii<;s for ciuelty to women and cliild-
ren ? Yes; T would inform in such cases. I have had some informers. Some hotel-
keepers have CO operated with me in regard t<i some small matters.
427f<.'5. They have come to you as a License Clommi.ssioiier, I suppose? Yes : and
they have asked me to move in certain matt^'is, which 1 lia\e done.
427i"^4. At all events, nothing has been done / No.
427Hr). The matter was talked alxnit and nothing was done.' It was not much
talked aliout.
HENRY A. MELLON, of Vancouver, general merchant, on being duly sworn,
deposed as follows :—
Jii/ Judge McDonald :
4*2786. Do you hold any oHicial position? 1 am .Vmerican -Lloyds agent, and
Consul for Spain, and a Justice of the Peace for this pro\ ince.
427H7. How long have you resided in Hritisli Columbia?— Si.\ years.
4'.!788. How long have you resided in Vancouver? All that time, with the exceji-
tioii of one month I was in Victoria.
4"2789. Did you come here from one of the other |)ro\incef! I came from Mani-
toba ; I was a .lustice of the Peace there too.
427!*0. Have you had anything to do with the working of the license law? — No.
427it 1 . Then only as a citizen have you known the working of the license law ? — Yes.
4l*7!)'_'. Have you found it work sntisfa<torily /-Yes.
42703. Are there any amendments .o it that you could suggest ! -No.
42794. Have you ever lived in a prohibitory country ? Yes.
42795. Wiiere? — In the North-west Territories, at Rapid City. I was a pioneer in
connection with that jilace, for I took (50 families out there myself.
4279(). In what part is Rapid City? -At present it is in the Winnipeg district nf
Manitoba, but at the time I was speaking of. it was not within that constituencv.
42797. When you lived there, was the North-west Mouiitetl Police Force in exist-
ence? -Ye.s, and a prohibitory law also.
42798. How did you find it work ? — For the first two years it worked exceptionally
well. Li(|Uor was very ditticult to secui'e. There were permits given by Colonel McLeod.
42799. Was not smuggling carried fm ?T suppose SI), but I do not know decidedly.
42800. There was no railway in operation at that time .' No.
42801. Y'ou have spoken of the first two years of thi' Act and yon have said that
it worked well during that pericnl ? Yes.
42802. How did it work after that? After that, the North-west Territories Act
came in, and there was more cimimunication with the rest of the country. There was
tlien more or less smuggling of li<]uor, and drinking was carried on in all places. This
became such a nui.sa.ice that the citizens applied for a license law, and obtained it.
4280;i. Wius that after Rapid City became a |)art of Manitoba ' Yes.
42804. Is the license law of Manitoba carried into force there ? Yjs.
42805. Was it in force when you left there? Yes, and I lived at Winnipeg for a time.
42806. Is tiiere any other country in whid' you have livefl where there was a pro
hibitory law in force? — T have lieen all over the world, and I have had considerable
experience.
■loiiN Devine.
67 Victoria
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
4'^807. Have you been in the Fiji Islands ,' T have been nil over tiie world, India,
China, Australia and Capi^ of CJ<mkI Hope.
4'J808. In all those countries, were license laws in operation? Yes.
4280!). What is the custom in China! -They havealicen.se law. but I could not
tell you on what basis it is framed.
42810. And in rejjjard tolndia, what luus been your e.\pei-ien 'e there ! — There is a
license law there also. Hut J nn^ht say this, Injforo goiiin; furlhei- with respect to my
experience in India: I was sub-lieutenant in the Naval Urij^Jidt', and scarcely any law-
is re(|uired in India, because drinking is a mere cipher. There is no drinkini; amon<<; the
natives, their religion prohibits it, and the natives of India are a most temperate cla.ss.
It is only in large cities, among the Anglo-Saxons, that you find the use of idcoholic
liquors. I have formed the idea that it is almost es.sential to the existence of the Anglo-
Sa.xons to use liijuor more or less.
42811. H ive you liiid any exp«>rience in Turkey ' The Turks of the country dis-
tricts ai'e very abstemious ; yet when they go into I'.rge cities, where they come into
contact with white people, some of the Mohannueda<is use li(|uoi'.
42812. W«' understand that the Mohammedan religion prohibits drinking liiiuof? —
Yes.
4281H. Have you seen anything in regard to the use of liipior in Persia! -No. My
experience has been principally on the sea coast.
42814. In Arabia'! I have been all along the coast of Hyria.
42815. What custotn [irevails there in regani to the use of liiiuor ! In the seaports
there are licenses i>sued.
4281(i. In the Mediterranian countries do you tind the use of light wines general!'
-- Y'^es, principally in Alexandria an<l other eastern j)laces. When you get to (liliraitar
the sailors and pR(»ple of the lower class use a great deal of rum and a kind of arrack.
Anuuigst tli(> more respectable clas.ses a gi-eat deal of light wines is used, indeed, light
wines are used at every meal.
42817. Taking your experience in Hritish Columbia, do you think a prohibitory
law could be practically enfo red in ttiii- province ! No, I am cei-tain it could not.
42818. What would lie 'he ditticidties here? In the first place, there is an inmu-nse
extent of coast, and in the ^c'lntl place, it is sparsely settled. The extent of tiie coast
is such that every little bay <-,r iidet might coxer a distillery. The people would either
distil li(juor or suniggle iv. Further, we have a large bouiuiary line that it would be
impo.ssible to protect. It Aould i-eipiire an ar'my at least, and then I doubt whether it.
could be done.
42819. Supposinga general prohibitory law were passed, a law to prohibit the manu-
facture, imj)ortation anil sale of ;dcoholic li(|Uors for bevei'age ]>urposes, do you think it
would be right th.it brewers aiid ibstillers should be compensated foi' loss of plant and
machiiu'ry? Yes, 1 think they sliould be com|M'nsated if a pi-ohibitory law were passed.
On the other haiul, if |)rohil)ition became the law of the country, aiul the brewers anil
distillers were given jn'oper- notice and allowed time to wind uji their all'airs, 1 do not
think compensation woidd be necessary. It would, howexcr, be impossible to pass a
pi'ohibitory law and carry it into efVect, l«>cause 1 think there wouki be a I'cvolution in
the country before it could l)e carried out.
By R,'r. Dr. Mrhod :
42820. T understand yo\i have expressed youi'self as having no objection to the
license law as you have observed it here? Yes.
42821. Do you object to the violations of the law concerning which we haxc had
cousiderabli' testimony this afternoon? Speaking candidly, I believe those statements
have been greatly exaggerated. I have not been in a saloon on Sunday siix'c I have
been here, unless I have had some business ; otherwise 1 think di'itiking on Sunday is
die exception to the rule. I do not know that I can re.iiembei' positively ever seeing a
drunken man on the street. I have seen sonu' on Saturday night aiul I have even seen
men jolly, boys Ux), who have had some li(|uor to set them up ; but so far as seeing men
drunk on Siuulay is concei-ned, t have not seen one.
42822. Is it good for the Ik»vs to obtain liipior in that way 1 — No.
I i
i i
liiquor Traffic — British Columbia.
K
42S"_';}. l>o you see any relation between that (le.scri|itioii of drinking on tlie pai't of
the Ikjvs and the Hcensed li(|U()r phiees. Is there any relation .' No. Those young men
liave a little jollification, and 1 could not see that any of them were incapable of going
right back and attending to their business. On this coast we have a tendency to become
more or less .jolly.
42M24. You belong to the Navy. I believe? -To the Naval Reserve.
42f<"2r). It was formerlv the custom, I l)elieve, to gi\c rations of grog in the Navv ?
- Yes.
4'J8:.M). But there has lieen a change in that resj)ect .' It is optional with the men
now. They can either take their grog oi' not. In India we supplied the men with beer
in preference to rum, it was <jnly when we arrived in more temjierate climates that they
got rum.
42S"_'7. I)<J you considei- that beer was preferable to spirits / -Yes.
4'J8'J^. Do you know from the history of the Navy up to the present time that there
are now a very large number of men who refrain fron) grog entirely ! — 1 believe so. I
might say as regards myself that I sailed for -"{O years, and '20 years of that time I was
in connnand. Li(|Uor cost me nothing and I never t«Kjk anything on boani ship during
'20 years, but I took it when on shore. It was a matter of |)i-inciple.
428'Jlt. Why is it that abstinence is encouraged in the Navy now by the otHcci's ?
Do the orticers think the men are better oft" than they were when rations of grog were
.servetl? I do not think it is the duty of the otBcecs to encourage or interfere in any
way. <^f cour.se an officer may ha\e his own personal views, but t>fficially he is not
allowed to say a word to the men. If an officer jt»ins a church and becomes a missionary
of that church in a lay capacity, he has a right to flo this ; but that is a jH'r.sonal mattei'.
4*J8.'{0. Then it wouhl l)e proper for him to use his intfuence i — Certainly.
428.'U. Would that abstinence be in the interest of the men physically or otherwise,
or against their interest ? — I do not know. The present idea is that the physiipie of the
.sailors is not what it was '20 or ;{0 years ago.
42S3'J. Do you think that is attributable in any respect to the al»stinence from
grog ,' — That is a question I should not like to gt) into.
42S;{;}. I lielieve you have said that you have comt.* to the conclusion that grog is
neces.sary to the existence of the Anglo-Sa.\ons ? - ft seems Ut me to l)e so moi-e or less.
It seems they cannot get on without it.
4l!8.'$4. In your wicU' observation extending over a h rge portion of tlie world, have
you observed whether it interfered with the existence of the AngltvSaxons ? — No. We
found in India that the mcKlerate drinker withstood the climate better, and when an
epidemic came along he stood just as g(HKl a chance as the total abstainer. It was oidy
when a man drank to excess that the li«|Uor ]>rove<l harmful. All the doctors recom-
mended you to take one or two glasses of licpior daily in oi-der to prevent torpiditv of
the liver.
t28;{r). Do you think the use of liipior in this country prevents e|)idemics? No, T
do not think it has any influence one way or another.
428:fG. You liave spoken about the impractibility of carrying out prohibition. Do
you object to the j)rinciple of |)rohibition ( No.
42H;f7. D<) you believe if prohibition were enacted in Can.ida, and were well
enforced, it would be priKluctive of any g(M»d ! I think if there was a possibility nf
introducing pix>hibition anil carrying it out thoroughly, that is tfj stamp out li(|uor from
the world, it would lie well for all concerned, but I cannot see that it is practicable.
Henry A, Mellon
652
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
W. D. HKYDONE JACK, M.D., of Vancnuver, on beint; duly swum, deposed as
t\)llo\vs :
Jiij Jiitlge Mc/)inui/il :
42838. An; you ii praetisiiij,' physician ? Yes, I am a physician and surgeon.
428.'{9. How long have you resitled in British Columhia ? Nearly three yeais.
42840. Have you resided all that time in Vancouver 1 -Yes.
42841. Did you come here t'roni one of the other provinces '. J had been pi'actisiiig
in England for .several years, hut T came here direct from Manitoba.
42842. Have you had any expei'ience of a prohibitory law .' I cannot say that I
havt!. The !Sct>tt Act was in force in one of the districts of ((ntario when f was there
for a short time, but 1 did not take any notice of it.
4284.'$. Have you been brought otficially in <-oiniection with the working of the
licen.se law here .' No.
42844. Oidy as a citizen ?~ Yes.
4284"). How does it appear to work '. Tt seems to work \ery well. I think there
are j)robal)ly some violations of it.
42840. Are thert- any amendments that you woidd suggest to the (Commission in
regard to the law ? I should not likt; to suggest any, because F have not studied the law.
42847. Taking the experience you have had in England and elsewhere and in Van-
couver, and taking into consifleration the fact that this is a seaport town, are the peoj)!e
here sober, orderly and law-abiding? I do not think there is any more drinking here
than in other cities and seaport towns in H^ngland.
42848. Do you, as a matter of principle, favour prohii)ition or license .' Prohii)itioii.
42849. Are you opposed to the license law on principle ? I prefer prohibition.
428r)0. If you cannot ol)tain ])rohibition, do yon favom- license to free sale i- -
Certainly.
428;")1. Inca.se of the eiuiclment of a general prohibitory law, a law to jirohibit
the manufacture, importatioit and sale of alcoholic liquors, do you think it would be
right to compensate brewers and distillers for loss of plant niul machinery t Provided
that a certain time was allowed them to close up their business, f do not think they
shou'd be given compensation.
42852. You would either compensate them or give them time to close up their
btisiness, I suji[)ose / — They woidd re(|uire one or the other.
B;/ Rev. Dr. McLeod :
428i»;{. Have you observed whether the .Sunday law is violated h(M-e or is carried
out? — Of course 1 do not come into contact with saloons much on Sunday, but 1 have
observed quite a few cases of drunkenness on the streets on Sunday : on Sunday morn-
ing as well as in the e\ening.
42804. There has lM.'en testimony given to the effect that in houses of ill fame, nf
which there are a considerable miinber here, there is liquor sold without license. |)o
you, as a physician, know whether the liquor trade is as a rule cotmected with the social
evil ? — Always.
428.')."). That is your observation of it? Yes.
4285(5. Do you believe that total abstinence is compatible with the l)est health ? —
Certainly.
42857. Is habitual in<Hierate drinking harmful or harndess?- Habitual drinking
may be harmless in some oases, but not as a rule. A man is better without it.
42858. Have abstiuners, other things being eijual, any better exjiectation of life
than habitual drinkers ? — Yes; that is one of the (|uestions asked by most insurance
companies, as to whetlun- the applicant is a total abstainer or not.
4285!). Are insurance companies careful about taking risks on mi Kleratt? drinkers?
— They are, sometimes.
42860. In case of accidents or serious illness, have total abstainers a better chance
of recovery than men w ith the drink habit, even in moderation ? They have.
42861. Are the children of mmlerate drinkers mon? liable than thechihlren of total
ubstuiners to have brain or nervous or other phvsical defects ? — Yes.
653
t ^
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
428G2. Speaking of heredity : have you observed whether the children of liabitual
drinkers are more Ukely to become drunkards than the children of total abstainers ? —
Yes, I think they are, from what I have noticed.
4'2863. What effect do you believe, from your knowledge as a practising physician,
total abstinence and enforced prohibition wouUI have on the health of the community
at large? -It would have a beneficial effect.
+2864. Have you given any attention to the i^ause of insanity ? Xothing special.
4'2HG."). Have you studied the subject sufficiently to he able to say whether alcoholism
is in any degree the predisposing cause of in.sanity ? From my experience of cases of
insanity, I should say that alcoholism is directly or indirectly the cause, indirectly I mean
through its influence by others on individuals ; in fact it is the predisposing cause in
the great majority of cases.
Bi/ Judge McDomild :
42866. Do you find medical authorities agree with you in that opinion, or are you
sjwaking purely from your own experience? Partly fiom my own experience and partly
from medical authorities.
42867. If the asylum authorities of Cana^ia take a different view, do you think
they are correct ? Asylum authorities in assigning the causes as given by the indivi-
duals do not take into account the causes of which I have spoken. They take into
account only the direct causes.
42868. Would they not be in a better position to judge these matters than you ? -—
Certainly they would, because they have a lai'ger number of cases to deal with.
428()y. [s there any difference, taking ordinary life insurance, in the premium paid
by the total abstfiiner and the man who drinks in moderation ? -Not in all companies.
There are some companies that make a difference in favour of the total abstainer.
42870. Does your com[)anv make a sjjecial division of profits for total abstainers?
^-Yes.
42871. Do you know what the fact has been as regards total abstainers? From
what 1 have read of statistics on that point, it has been in favour of total abstainers.
42872. 1 am speaking of the financial effect ? — What I was speaking of was the
percentage of deaths.
4287;}. Taking the financial effect, what has that been ? I do not know much
alKJUt it.
42874. Take the insurance companies : there arc some of them, you say, that make
s[)ecial rates for total al.stainers and a division of profits is made in favour of total
abstainers. Did the total abstainers get their bonuses? T could not say.
4287''). Do you know that the result has been that the total abstainers have got
profits added even beyond those obtained by the moderate drinker ?- I could not .suy.
ALFRED 8T. GEORGE HAMMERSLY, of Vancouver, on being duly swuin,
deposed as follows : —
Jiy Judge MrDonnld:
42876. What is your profession or occupation ? — I am a barrister and T act as City
Solicitor.
42877. How long have you resided in Uritish Columbia? — Foui" and a half years.
42878. Where did you come from? — I came oi'iginaljy from England, and before
that from Australia and New Zealand and other countries.
42879. Have you lived in any other city, except Vancouver, in British Columbin '
—I n'sided a short time in Victoria, but nothing to count.
42880. What has been your experience in Australia in respect to dealing with tlic
liquoi- traffic ? Was there a license law in force there ? — Yes, in the part I was in. At
W. D. Bryuone Jack.
654
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1»94
■first there was a License Hoard appointed by the troverninent and Justices of tlie Peace,
and it worked very well ; it could not have been better. Latterly they repealed that
law and adopted a local option law. The Legislatui'e repealed that law, and went back
to a license law.
4288L We have been told to-day that in Australia some places have two or three
bars in one bar building? — Ye.s, that is the custom in regard to some hotels. There is
no limit in regard to the number of bars.
42882. Are they in different rooms in the building ?— There are as many bars a.s
the hotel-keeper wishes. He does not pay any more for two or tiiree than he would
for one.
t288,3. In New Zealand, what is the law 1 — Exactly the same there.
42884. Is there no limit there in regard to the number of bai-s ? -^Xo.
4288.'j. Do you know what were the license fees paid in those countries f- — When I
was there, five years ago, fees were £100 a yeai- in the cities and towns, and £40 u year
in the country.
4288r). Had they different classes of licenses, such as hotel and saloon ? — There are
no saloons, they are all hotels.
42887. Is it the same in New Zealand /- — Yes ; they are all hotels. There .ue no
such places as saloons in those countries.
42888. Are the same classes of liquoi's sold there as are sold here, spirits and fer-
mented li({Uors? — Yes.
42889. Are there also light wines used in these countries ?- -Yes, to a certain extent ;
not very much. Whisky is the prevailing drink nf the country, about the same as it is
here.
428'.)0. Taking your experience of different countiies and your (experience in Van-
couver, and taking into account that this is a .seaport town do you think the people are
sober, orderly and law-abiding / — I think .so, distinctly. This town compares favourably
with towns in Australia and New Zealand. There is less drinking observable here; that
is to say, that a passer-by would not see nearly as much (lrin!..ing, or rather signs of
drinking, as in either Australia or New Zealand.
42S!)1. Have they a Sunday closing law there? — Yes; the law we have here is
framed very much after the New Zealand and Australian laws.
42S92. How is the Sunday law ob.servetl there? — About the same as it is here.
42893. How is it in New Zealand (The same as hctre.
42894. Have you any knowledge as to how the Sunday law is observed hei'e? — To
say that liquor is not sold would l)e incorrect. It is almost ini])ossil)le l(t pi'event viola-
tions of the law.
4289"), You were in tiiis country Ijefore the present law come into force, I lielieve.
Have you noticed any difference between the present time and before the Sunday dosing
law came into force ? — Yes.
42890. Are thei-e less effects of drinking manifest on Sunday? — Certainly, without
a doul)t. That law has been veiy beneficial.
42897. Are there any suggestions you can make to the Ccpuunissioii in regard to
amending the license law / -No, I <lo not think so; at all events, no particular amend-
ments. I would have severe jinnishment inflicted on habitual drunkai'ds, more severe
than is now jji-ov ided for.
42898. Do you know whethei' there are people in this conununity who repeatedly
appear before the Police Court and are ihied for drunkenness, sent to jail for short terms,
and shortly afterwards reappear in the Police Court? I do not know ; but if such is the
case, and probably you will find sonu; in every cf)mnuinitv, I think there should bi^ very
strict laws passed making habitual drunkenness a ci'ime.
42899. Do you think the victims slioukl be locked up in inebriate asylums ! I
would punish them very .severely indeed.
42900. Taking comnmnities you have known in Australia, New Zealand, lOnglaiul
and here, do you consider that the larger pi'oportion of those who use intoxicating
beverages use them moderately or innnoderately ? — Moderately.
42901. Taking those people, is the percentage large or small? Su|){)ose you take
100 people who use alcoholic drink, how many u.se it to excess ? — Ten or fifteen per cent.
655
\ •!
Liquor Trattic — British Columbia.
AVhen I say in exccMs, I do iidt mean lialtitiial drinkers, ))ut jieople who j(o l)ey(>ntl
niotleration.
42902. F)<> ymi know anythin;; of the oharacter of the H(juor sohl iiithis community,
anil <lo you favour a rif,'id inspection of licjuor ? Certainly.
4l.'903. Is there any [)rovision in your license law for the inspection of liquor? — No,
I do not tiiink we could carry it out.
42904. Is there a I )oniinion Analyst or fnspector here ? I think not.
1290"). Taking the countiy as you know it, d(t you Iteiieveprohihition is practicable
here ?--lt certainly would not he.
4290fi. What would he the ditficulties in the way ? -[ think there are difficulties
in all coujuninities. I have seen prohibition in force but it utterly failed.
42907. ^\' here was that ? — In the north |)art of New Zealand, where it was an
absolute failure.
42905. Is the prohibition law still in force there, or not? — I could not say.
12909. What were the ditliculties there? -The ditticulty of enforiing the law. Such
an immense number of peo[)le reijuire ii(|uor that it would he impos.sil)le to enforce the
law, even with a large body of gCKxl officers.
'42910. T)o you mean that people would bring in liquor I — Yes. You would require
an inunense army of men, very vigilant, in order to suppress the traffic, and T do not
believe it coul<l be suppressed even then.
42911. In the event of a general prohibitory law. do you In^lieve tiuf brewers and
distillei's should be compen.sated for their (ilant and machinery rendered useless? —
Ceitaiidv.
By lii^v. Dr. Mr hod:
42912. fs your objection to prohibition because of the impracticability of carrying
it out, or do you <ibject to the principle of it? — I object to the principle of it. I thitik
moderate drinking is perfectly right.
By Judge McDonald :
429 l.S, In that country of which y(ju have spoken (New Zealand), where a prohi-
bitory law was in force, what were the means taken to enf<»rce it, and were there domi-
ciliary visits and inspections of j)laces ? -Yes. and there was als<» a police force.
42914. Do you mean a special force ?- -YVs, they had a special force to do the work.
4291"). What was the character of the liquor used? — Whisky almost entirely.
Spirits came in of vei-y bad quality.
42910. They came in small bulk, 1 suppose, and could be smuggled in? — Yes.
42917. How are licenses granted there now ? By the Licensing Board on
receiving applicatit)ns made by applicants ; and at the .same time there is the power
of opposing licenses given to the [)eople. Tf the people do not wish a licen.se to be granted,
their appeal is listened to, and if a license is not considered desirable, it is not given.
42915. Have a certain proportion of the jieople to act in op|Hjsition to the applica
tion ? — The license is not gi'anted unless it is considered reasonable and ])roper by'^the
Commissioners to do so.
42919. Has the applicant to have the names of a certain proportion of the people
to his ])etition, and certain ai,< onimodation on his premises ? Yes, they must have the
regular accommodation for ordinary travellers.
42920. Is the number of the licenses limited according to the population? — No, the
number is entirely (it the discretion of the Connnissioners.
42921. There is no limit, then, in the cities and in the rural districts? — No.
42922. Are there many wayside inns in Australia? — Y'^es, quite a number in the
counti'v.
4292.S. And in New Zealand, tocj ? The Act, as carrie<l out by the Commissioners,
works very well, and the hotels are maintained up to a certain standard, and licenses are
not granted luiless hotels are first clas.s.
42924. If an hotel is granted a license in spite of considerable opposition l>eing
made, how long would the license continue in force ? — One yeai-.
Alfrki) St. (iKoiuJE Hammkksly,
656
appl
gent
do n
so h
the
houe
pari
beh
of tl
8udi
• the
Liquor Traffic — British Columbia.
42925. At the eiul of that year, could opposition be again made f— Yes, for a fiosh
application would have to he made.
42926. Then the licensee would not obtain a vested interest in the license, cf>iitin-
yent on };ood behaviour? — No.
42927. We understand that in some parts of British Columbia men havmj; lieense.s
do not have to apply for renewals ? -There is an idea that it is so, but it is not really so.
42928. In Victoria we understood that was the practice in some cases 1— It is not
so here. There is a provision in the law that if a man absconds, any party iiit;'rested in
the house, the owner or the landlord, can apply and get the licen.se issued to him for the
house. • 1 1-
42929. If a licensee became ins il vent, his assignee could not put ni the license as
part of the property I— No, there is no vested interest in that way.
429.S0. And the executor could notdo anything with it f-^No. So long as the licensee
behaves himself, the license is likely to be granted continuously ; but it is in the p.wer
of the Licensing Commissioners not to renew it.
The Commission adjourned, to resume its sittings in California, U. S. A.
»;57
21—42**
Liquor Trnffic.
APPENDIX No. I.
Letter submitted hy Polire Mnt/intrate I'l'fblex, of Winnipeg :
He Liquor License Act. Reply of Board of Police Commiasioners to letter from Department of the
Attorney-General.
The Hoard of Police Commissioners have had referred to them the letter from tlie Attorney-
Oeneral's Department, of '23rd ult., in reference to the enforcement of the Licpior License Act in
Winnipeg. Having given the matter their best consideration, tliey submit the following as their
re-sponse to the conummication referred to, as well as to others upon tlie same subject : —
The authority of the Board, under the provisions of the Act, appears to l«j very generally misun-
derst<H>d, and to be assumed to be more extensive tlian as a fact it is. This appears from communi-
cations to anil referring to the Board on this as well as on other (jiicstions.
The police force under the control of tiie Board is a very small one, considering the extent of the
territory it is intended to protect, and it is no doubt largely owing to its etlicicncy that an increase
in the niuuliers has not yet become an absolute necess^ity. As it is, the patrol service has .so far been
contineil within a very limite<l area, almost to Main Street.
The force is as large as the appropriation will properly maintain.
The jjreservation of the peace and the protection of the lives and projjtrty of the citizens appears
to be the first duty of a p<dice force.
To assist in enforcing the observance of the law, in other and all respects, is also adnatted to be a
duty.
It is admitted, however, that there are statutory offences in respect to which the duty of i;m-
Ijers of a regular police force must be of a limited character, or otherwi.se its value for protective or
more important purpcwes will l)e greatly lessened, if not destroyed. This remark specially applies to
the i|uestion under consideration.
The police constables wear uniforms when on <luty, are well known, and in connection with tiiis
matter could be of little .service as ''etectives, apart from the fact that their acting in that capacity
would certainly att'ect their usefulness in connection witii other ami paramount duties.
The Boaril is of opinion that it comes witl.iii the duty of a j)olicc constable on patrol to take cog-
nizance of any infraction of the Liijuor Licen.se Act, as well as of any local or general law that he may
see or have his attention called to, such as the keeping open of bar-rooms during prohiliitcd hours, or
any other open violation of the law, but this can only be done within the onlinary patrol limits.
In connection with the performance of this duty, copies of the synopsis of the Act referred to in
section US, should be furnished to the Police Department.
The expenditure of the Board ami its purpose is strictly <letined and limited by the Act. It has
no appropriation in connection with the enforcement of the provisions of the Li(|uor Licen.se .Act for
the |)aymcnt of the cla.ss of detectives reciuired in connection with the enforcement fif laws of this
character, and the Hoard does not consider it has any authority to make or order such an expenditure.
Section 14 of the .\ct appears to place tiic responsibility in this connection upon the municipality
where there is no inspector ap|)ointed liy the Lieutenaut-( lovernor in Council, resident tlierein.
This Board has hitherto been uniler the impression that tlie duty of looking after the enforcement
of the Li(|Uor License .\ct has been assumed l)y the Inspector of tlie Covernment, resident in the
municipality, in connection with the City Insjiector.
As this does not aiipear to be the case, the Board is prepared to give such instructions to the police
constables as to their iluties in the premises, as it considers proper that they should perform, and aa
already indicated.
21— 42i*
669
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
APPENDIX x\o. 2.
Till' fiilltiirinij KffitfiDK'iif mis siihmitted l>ij VIkivIvk II. CoriliiKjIfij, of lyinnipfij :
(ITV OF WINXII'KC.
Id WIKll.KSAI.K IIIPISKS.
Average.
Stocks carried aiiunint to ■$ •i.')7,<M)<» .^.'i'il "J."!
Xiniilper of eniployees fiS H.J,
Yearly waj^es .'*4.'{,74(t .'*."i,4ti7
TlicHc Kgures are the returns fiirnislied liy H out of tlie 10 \vluiU-:.ilu liouses. Value of real estate
anil ])reMiifett nut furuiHheil. The value of real estate aud liuildiugu not given by the wholesale
nierchauls.
.'W HOTELS AND S KKSTAllUNTS.
Present value of property (real estate and buildings) ?!1,0I(1,.">(K» .'«!.'{|,IS()
Depreciation on altove .'«ir)41,H<H» !>!l,"),48(l
Number of employees '244 7
Yearly wages 8124,1I4 .'*:i,."i4(>
Value of bar fixtures and stock ?i>47,;i(M) !?4,20S
(Depreciation of fixtures and stocks not given in to the undersigned. Think 50 per cent would
be a low estimate.) This does not include the value rif furniture.
These aic the figures furnished by ;<."> out of 4ti hotels and restaurants, basing my figures on the
above returns furnished by 3.") out of 4(i licen.sees, the full returns would amount to as follows ; —
Value of properties §1 ,2cS•2,!M^;
Depreciation §(>-S, 1 1 7
Numl)er of employees 313 .
Yearly wages .*!!")!(,.") 12
Value of bar tixtureu and stocks .iJlS3,434
Total nund>er of employees 381
Total amount of wages !*203,'2,")2
In addition to the above there are '2 breweries and 2 cigar factories who employ a large number
of hands in the city.
There are 84 licenses in the Province of Manitoba exclusive of the City of Winnipeg.
Value of properties occupied by licensees —
Peal estate and buihlings !j ()99,6.i3
Depreciation <m above i?37r),r)19
Stocks of li(|uor8 and bar fixtures !?137,39l>
Nundier of employees .")10
Yearly wages paid them §161,744
In addition to the above there shouhl be the value of the furniture in the hotels (not furnished
to me) the depreciation on which as well as the stock and bar fixtures I should estimate would be at
least i)0 per cent.
The above are the returns furnishetl me by 70 out of 84 licensees in the ])rovince. Basing my
figures on the above returns, niy estimates for the full leturns would be as follows ; —
Value of properties .S773,5(>2
Depreciation .S4 ir>,()47
Value of stocks and fixtures §ir)3,175
Number of employees ,573
Yearly w ages paid them SnS,?.^
Total number of employees in the province 944
Total wages paid them §382,008
In addition to the above there are 14 wholesale houses and 4 breweries employing a large number
of hands.
660
Liquor Traffic.
APPENDIX No. 3.
77(1? folhnving provisions of the (/e/ivemnre of d'eneral Confeianre <f Mt'thixHnl C/nirrfi
irere HuhinittfiJ l)if Iffv. Jnhti Semmens, if ]Viiinl/Mij :
1. Till! Httitiiilu of tilt! Mftliodist CliuiL'li toward till' lii|iior tnitlii' liax l«'rn from tiio iH'jjinniiin
one of uimliiiting opnosltioii. Wo (loilart! it to l)e otVelisive to (iod and riiimmx to man, adi-adly foi! to
the liappiiii'HH, iiiorHlity and prosperity of any people. We HtrennouHly ur>;e that total ahstinence for
tile individual, and total proiiihitioii for the .State, are prineiplex wliieli ulaiin our iiiilieMitatln>; .sup-
port as a Christian Chureli.
'2. We lielieve and teach that the liciuor traffic cannot be licensed without sin. Into the licensed
Imr-room men are tenijited in social and liusines.s intercdurse, and speedily the hahit of social treating;
ripens into the liahit of driinkenness. We appeal to you to unite with ns in seciirinv; the outlawry
of this aliDiniiiation of desolation the licensed harroom in every community, liy iL-iiu,' your vote
and inllueiice against the granting of licenses. When the tratlic is outlaweil we helieve it to lie the
))atriotic duty of every citizen to secure the suppression of all illicit tralhc l>y aggressive legal measures.
3. We are aware of the wide-sjiread indignation '.egarding very inetlicient enforcement of prolii-
hitory laws against the li(|Uor tratHc. The liunlen of securing evidence, and of hearing expenses of
prosecution is too frei|uently thrown upon private citizens. We helieve that the (iovirmnent should
ns strictly enforce the laws against law-hreakeis of the .saloon as against any class of criuiinals. When
the Government refuses to tlo this it is guilty of an executive weakness against which we protest.
This weakness cannot he remedied if we lessen our efforts or compromi.se with the foe, hut only l)y
patient, persistent agitation directed towanl clearing out of all piildic olHces incompetent idlers and
sympatlii.sers with the li(|iior trnlHc.
4. We rejoice in the fact that an advance has lieen made liy the Manitoha Legislature in calling
for a ])leliiscite vote upon I'rohiliition, anil we pledge ourselves to use our votes and inllueiicu in
favour of I'rohiliition.
.">. We regret to learn that the Prohiliitory Law, inperfeet though it was, in the Xorth-west
Territories has licen repealed in favour of license law. This has lieen followed, we are credihly
informed, hy a greater flood of intoxicating liiiuors than has ever liefore liceii witnes.sed. We urge
the temperance people of the Territories to roll hack this Hood of iiiiipiity, and unite with Mnnitolia
in hringing this great land under the rule of prohiliition, strictly enforced.
)i. We recognize the fact that a prohihitory law without a liovernment in sympathy with it,
to enforce it as jiart of its policy, would lie a dead law upon our statuteliook. The inconsistency of
jirofessedly temperance voters, who preached prohiliition and voted against it in the election of their
ctiididates, has in the past defeated their own desire for a prohiliitory law. Also, hy duplicity and
craftiness designing politicians have in times past deceived and duped the peojile in their dealing with
this question. We therefore urge tiie Christian men of our Church, and of others also, who love their
country, to use their votes and iiiMiieuce to .secure the election of legislators who.se past record is
clean, and who have shown before their nomination a sympathy with prohibition. .Sudileii con-
versions of candidates forottice to this cause 011 the eve of an election are often spurious, and followed
l)y grievous back-sliding. The time has, in our opinion, come when the Clinrch of (Iod, of which the
ilethodist (Miurcli is an inllnenlial Jiart, should definitely and for ever separate itself from the liquor
traffic, and ojipose any (iovernment which leans uiion the liijiior traffic for support.
661
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
APPENDIX No. 4-
The foil niving renofntum u'(u unhmittm/ hi/ Kei: A. f'rr/iiharf, of Bramlitn :
Tlie minutcH of the Xiiitti Synoil of Manitnlia luul the North-west TerritoritH of the IVesliyterian
Church of ('iiiiai)ii, ISHl, show :
Thirtfuiitli Seileriint, Tm-silay iiftcriiooii.
That from iliHoiigHiuiiM during tlie preHciit flei-tioii of iiieinlwrH to the Northwest ' oil, on the
phitforiii iiiul ill tlic press, it wouhl seem proliiihlc that an attempt woiilti lie n' lo change the
North-west Act in rehitioii to prohihition.
That in opinion of this Synoi), the I'roiiiliition law as it stanils, if properly ailministereil, suits
the circumstances of the popiihttion unit state of society of tlie Territories 'letter tlian any propoted
Legishition.
Tliat the Synod is constrained to express its decided judgment that the spirit of the prohiliition
law, has Iwen grossly violated an<l suliverted by the way in whicii permits have lieen issued l>y the
Lieutenant-<!ovcrnor to persons, antl in (juantities, wholly at variance with the scope and intent of
the Act.
That the Synod does respectfully liut earnestly petition the Northwest Asseiiilily not to make
any changes in the Act which may in any way relax those provisions which guarantee immunity from
the numerous evils that result from the trattic in intoxicating drinks.
That in the judgment of this Synod liefore any licenses to sell intoxicating drinks lie granted to
any person or persons, he or they must have secured the names on petition of at least Kfteen out of
twenty of the nearest resident householders, who are at the same time ratepayers.
That the Synod earnestly recjuests the licorty co-operation of all the Christian Churches in
Btrengthening the hands of our legi.'«lators in our desire to prevent or curtail the pernicious drink
traffic by public resolution and private effort.
That the Synod earnestly recommends all its ministers, elders and members to earnestly pray
and ililigently to work in every legitimate way to guard the homes and fiimilies of the people of the
Korth-west Territories from the dreadful scourge of ilrunkenness.
APPENDIX No. 5.
Copy of deliverance on prohibition adopted hy </.« B'^iuti". Church in Manitoba, submitted
by Rev. Wm. JiiikiuK, orandon.
PROHIftintN.
Whereas we believe that the liquor traffic is a curse in our land, that all methods of restriction
have failed to curtail its ravages : Kesolveil that we are convinced that absolute prohibition is an
imperative necessity ; and that nothing but this will banish intemperance from our fair country ;
Resolved also that we welcome *he opp<jrtunity to express at the polls at the coming general election
our desire for the immediate enactment an<l enforcement of a prohibition law. Moved by Messrs.
King and McDonald and carried by a standing vote.
662
Liquor Traffic.
APPENDIX No. 6.
Thfi folloH'huj xUttemfiitx iirf' siihuntted hy Robert !i. Gordon, ./ liit/inn ,■
The return of Hpeoiiil permits after tlio iiitro<luction of intoxicating liiiuors into the North west
TerritorieM, during tiie year IHH9, shows the following summary : —
•"^ri'-'.^l, . (Jails.
^^ '""ky \^^K^\
lira III I y .
(iin . . . .
Rum.. . .
Alcohol .
I, OHO
4.-|4i
410"
Wine. .
Beer . .
I'orter.
Total .
1 1 ,(i(iO^
1,48'j"
'-'."i,.V_>7
)"1
Beer imp 'iteil for sale, limiteil, four per cent alcohol 1 12,4484
Total l.-il ,«ll>1)
Liiiuors Hol.l on ilining cars of the Canadian Pacific Kaiiway under permit for wine and lieer,
dated .SOtli .July, l8S(i, from the i'lth .lanuary to 2."ith December, I88!»: wine, I(i4'^ galls. ; beer]
2,ti()7 galls. Tlie .similar return for 18!»0, shows the following summary of spirits :-
.Spirits-
Whisky
Mrandy
(iin
Hum '.'.'.'.'..'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.
Alcohol
Wine.
Total.
Calls.
10,4!t2
l,l"»iA
4,'.oi
120^
1-.',417
I,4ti4
B««>" 41,0(10
Porter
' .013
Beer, for sale, limit, four per cent alcohol JC;^ 1 kj^
(irand total 15;},(i7(lA
Liquors sold on dining cars of Canadian Pacific Railway, under permit for wine and beer, dated
30th , July, 188(), from the 2,'>tli January to 2.'>th December, 1890: wine, 82.i galls. ; beer, 88!) galls.
A similar return for I8!U, shows the following : —
Spirits— Calls.
\\ hisky I2,2.")l
Brandy 1,203
<'i" 457
Rum 1()2
Alcohol 328
Total 14^341
Wine l^(52o
Beer lH,ti;^2
Porter 281
Beer for sale, limit, four per cent alcohol S6,920.\
C rand total I2l,82oi
Liquors sold on dining cars of Canadian Pacific Railwiy, under permit for wine and beer, ti
30th July, 188ti, from the 2r>th January to 2r)th December, 1891 : wine, 76 galls. ; beer, 673 galli
lated
s.
67 Victfyria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
APPENDIX No. 7.
Paj>er submitted by Rohert B. Gordon, of Re.gina .
FORM OF PERMITS.
North-west Territories.
Liquor Permit,
No. 5049.
Granted to
On what ground granted
Quantity of liquor granted
Date
Limit Montii
(Back) >
Cancelled tl)f.
day of 189
Signed,
c
a
o
»
o
S
o
c
3 S
r
o
North-west Territories,
No. ij049. Liquor Permit,
Regina, N.W.T., 189 .
Within . . . .month from date
of is permitted to take into the
North-west Territories
and to have the same at any time hereafter
in liis possession for
purposes. -^
Countersigned,
Secretary.
Lieut. -(iovernor, N.W.T.
This Permit can only be used once and
must be cancelled on presentation wiiether
the whole or any portion of the quantity
si)eciHed be brought into the Territories.
No further permit will be issued to any
one who transfers his Permit or w lio imports
or is found in ))ossession of li(|uor imported
under Permit granted to another person.
NOT transferable.
664
[)4
Liquor Traffic.
APPENDIX No. 8.
Statement submitted by Robert B. Gorilun, of Rfgitia :
Offknces committed in 1892, from January 7tli, to end of October — All others hut
Indians and Chinese.
) .
the
iter
.T.
Ml (I
lier
:ity
i.
my
jrts
ted
I.
No.
2
.S
4
.")
«
7
8
9
10
n
12
13
U
15
Hi
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
?»
30
31
32
.33
34
35
Offence.
Aggravated assault
Assault
Assault with intent to do grevious Ijodily harm .
Assault police
Bringing stolen property into Canada
Burglary
Beating passage on steamboat
Buggery
Carrying concealed veapous
Cruelty to animals
Cutting and wounding
City ))y laws, infraction of
Deserti )n from Hoyal Xavy
Creating a disturbance
Fighting
Drunks
Kmbezzlemeut
Forgery
j Fraud
j( iame laws, offences against
I I'^elouy
Highway robbery
( ianibliug
Insulting language
Larceny
Infraction Liijuor License Act
Lodgings
Infraction Militui Regulatious
Indecent assault
" exposure
Malicious injury to propiM'ty
Maliciously w binding vjattlo
Merchant Seamen's Act
Malicious assault
Receiving stolen property
Necessary witness
Resisting police
Refuse to jiay wages
"ublic morals by-li w, infraction of
■uipplying intoxicants
'ointing a gun
Threatening language
Unsound mind, etc
Vagrancy Act
Obtaining money by false pretence
" goods "
Possession of intoxicants
Conunitted
in
Police Court
Totals
1
I
1
1
.3
1
3
81
i
17
244
1
21
5
I
4
«l
18
I
1
4
30
552
Sent for
Trial.
Dis-
charged.
13
■2
18
1
1
59
11
2
4
1
3
2(i
4
25
13
.5
I
1
13
14
1
•2
Total.
<>
43
1
8
•J
\
1
•>
.'{
._)
4
140
II
3
2;
2.")0
I
1
1
3
1
9
50
9
4
4
74
23
17
44
792
()65
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No.
21.)
A. 1894
'
NDIANS.
CHINESE.
.2 *>
3
"S
3
„ 3
H
.- a
o
t*
•t^ U
z ^y
*4H
:e
:S
No.
c'o
c
Total.
= 5
.^
Total.
Ohh
^
oa.
SJ
JH
u
X
Q
u
•J.
p
1
1
1
.")
1
2
8
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
....
....
9
10
'27
is
40
11
"2'
12
3
3
13
'hs '.
'so'
14
15
16
17
10
12
22
18
1»
(i
'3
9"
20
....
21
1
22
"3'
'3
23
....
....
24
.
....
25
2
....
1
1
26
27
....
2
28
4
7
29
30
•2
"4'
31
....
32
3
33
1
1
T
2
34
'
35
".iV
"3"
11
'.S8'
....
....
127
10
i;js
05
6
39
110
666
94
Liquor Traffic.
- APFHNblX No. g.
Rev. Coverdale Watson, of Victoria, submitted tkf J'Mowimj rvport :
REPORT OF THK COMMITTKE ON TEMPERANCE.
.X°"F,^°""'"'^'*'® *i"'' *^''»'^ '""^ny things might be recorded to show that tlie temnei-ance sentiment
is stiU widening and deepening in this province. Cliief amon^ tliem we note the huxe increase in the
number of the Independent Order (Jood Temphirs Lodges, and the establishment of tlie Sons of Tem-
perance, which lias now several divisions in !':;tive operation.
The resuscitation of the I'rovincial branch of the Dominion Alliance and the untiring zenl of the
\\ omens Christian Temperance Union temperance workers, have been successful in preventing the
Licensing Boards from granting some applications for licenses, and in securing in one of the courts
decisions adverse to the liipior interest^..
We record our appreciation of the action of a few of the school boards in introducing scientific
temnerance instruction into some of the pui)lic schools, and note with jdeasure the good effect that
has been produced by the enforcement of the Sunday Closing Act of the previous session of the Letris-
liiture. *
We thankfully express our conviction that the ministers and members of our church are still in
the front rank of the leaders of the Temperance Reform and of Prohibition.
We oljserve with apprehension that the determination of those interested in the li(iuor traffic to
wrest from us our privileges, and to secure the removal of the restriction that past legislation has nut
upon their previous business. •- a i
Eternal vigilance to guard our privileges, iletermined ojjposition to encroacliinent upon our
liberties an<l persistent attack upon the legal recognition of the li(iuor traffic ouglit to be tlie platform
of all tein[)ei'aiice workers.
This is the more apparent when we have still to deplore : 1. The persistent foisting of the traffic
upon unwilling communiti-.s, in direct contravention of the reciuirements of the Li(iuor License Law ;
2. J he sympathy and interest shown by many justices of the ])eace in assisting parties seeking lic.;nse'
to evade the re(|uiremcnts of the law ; 3. The innidious and successful tampering with the Municipal
Act, by which it is impossible in specific cases for a license to be procured without securing the con-
sent of two-thirds of the responsible residents of the municipality ; 4. The unjustifinble laxity in many
cases of those appointed to enforce the law which allows the illegal sale of intoxicants not only clan-
destinely, but even openly and over a bar, esjiecially upon coasting and river steanilmats.
These tilings <v..ivi„ce us tliut we nce<l a radical change in the sentiment, or in the personnel of
those who rcprescp.t ti..; people of this province, and leads us to urge temperance workers to close up
their ranks, and in the future to take a more aggressive attitude than in the past.
.. . ^u cor,ulusi()n, as in the report of lust year, we would earnestly recommend the constant and
laitliful inculcation of temperance principles in the homes of our people and also in the Sunday School,
, . th -c t;i,.- young, who are the hope of the future, may grow up in an atmosphere that will naturally
.jUiKitv th( in for taking an. intelligent and loyal stand on the great question of prohibition.
667
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
APPENDIX No. 10.
Paper Hubraitted by the Chief of Police oj A'ew Wextminster :
Drunk
Dnuik nml disorderly
Drunk and incapable 1'-
Giving intoxicants to Indians 48
Intoxiciuits in possession of Indians "'
White men with intoxicants in Indian houses. .
.do do do reserves.
Total litjuor ca.'"
All other cases i
jail.
Total received in jai
188(».
1881.
1882.
1883
-.8
().'>
85
83
•J()
Hi
21
17
12
14
11
12
48
37
41
40
o
*)
10
6
3
4
o
2
14()
141
174
l()0
84
4.")
(12
09
2.W
186
2m
J29
Liquor cases over 75 per cent of total.
From all other cases, several, such as assault and vagrancy, might be put down to drunkenness.
Besides tiie above from 20 to 30 cases are annually tried by sununons ni the Police Court such as
assaults, malicious damage to property, threatening language, &c., the niajority of whicii cases are
caused through drunkenness.
disorderly ' ^
Drunk
Drunk and
Drunk and incapable .
(living intoxicants to Indians.
Intoxicants in possession of Indians
White men with Intoxicants in Indian houses. . .
<lo do do reserves.
Total licjuor cases
All other cases received in jail.
T«tal reoeivjjd in jail ....
Total 4 years
884.
11
months.
123
*X4
18
68
19
6S
73
$^9
21
m
9
3
18
5
!?<!«
887
85
'
m
351
1,252
668
)4
less.
h us
are
Liquor Traffic,
APPENDIX No. ir.
VICTORIA, B.C.
Convictions for OiFences committed in 1891.
Nature of Offence.
Committed
by all except
Indians
and
Chinese.
Committed
by
Indians.
Conunitted
hV
Chinese.
Total.
Assault
Infraction of city l)V-laws
30
136
mi
2il
36
2i»
42
96 "
8
4
3!l
1
12
5
2
4
42
175
Drunkenness
175
'i',""
3
582
(iainbling
Infraction of Public Morals Act
Supplying intoxicants to Indians,.
Vagrancy .
Possession of intoxicants
41
41
.SI
46
35
Other offences
12
111
Total
H04
221
79
1,104
Summary of Cases before the court.
Convicted in iKilice court.
Sent f(jr trial
Discharged
Grand total
Total cases before court for drunkenness .
79 1,104
6 39
31 2i»0
1,066
IKi
423
182
1,433
ma
( Compiled from the Biport of the Superintendent of Pol ice for ISUl. Seepage i7.!) of Evidence.}
66!>
NOTES AKB ERRATA.
to aU "^'' ^'^ ^'"'^^''''' ^^^^^^ ^"^^ line, substitute word nrre.9/edror words "committed
Page 464— 28th line fro.n bottom, insert words or the whim Ijetween the words
good-will and " of a government."
have "Sfn InstrtJd ^ following explanatory note by Lieutenant Governor Royal should
^^ " Free permits were also given (in 1891) for 1,625 gallons of wine, 18,053 Dillon*
" iven fo^r" 1891 " P®™'^'' S'"*"'*^^ ^"^^ «* ^''^' *''•« included in the total ( ? permits)
Page471— Question 39097, 4th line, insert word sit- between words "875 each"
and months (so as to read : each six months).
Page 474— Question 39148, 2nd lino, substitute the word for for the word "after."
Page 486— Question 39424, 5th line, insert the word not between the words "is"
and " benefited.
Page 557— Question 40838, 2nd line, and 3rd line, substitute 2^ for " 28."
11
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
INDEX AND ANALYSIS OF EVIDENCE.
MANITOBA, THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES AND BRITISH COLUMBIA.
WINNIPEG. 24th. 25th, 26th and 27th of OCTOBER, 1892.
AIRD, ALEXANDER A., of Winnipeg, Clerk of Police Force Page H9
Resident eleven years, clerk ten (.'U93.'5-4) ; Scott Act in Coburg, Ont., unsuccess-
ful ; lacked machinery (31937-41); majority of drunkards repeaters; Sunday
drinkers (31943-5) ; favours asylum for habitual drunkards ; imprisonment
ineffectual (31947-50) ; crime and liquor (31953-64).
ARDAGH, Hon. WILLIAM DAVIS, Judge of Eastern Judicial District of Manitoba
Page 0»
Resident in Winnipeg ten years. Judge nine years, formerly member of Legislature
of Ontario, License Commissioner under McCarthy Act (31636-50) ; Scott Act
in Siracoe, Ont., failure ; delegalized, more dangerous than licensed, trade ;
breweries under Scott Act ; temperance sentiment affected drinking hal)its
(31640-3, 31681-94) ; McCarthy Act best yet ; Provincial Act lacks strength
(31652-76) ; Sunday selling (31657-8) ; little illicit traflic (31671) ; favours
high license with inspection, and hotels only (31659-62) ; prohibition in Maine
25 years ago dead letter (31674-5, 31715-16) ; license preferable to prohibition
(31676) ; prohibition promotes drinking (31712-19) ; favours compensation
(31679, 31718-20) ; drunkenness and crime (31664-9, 3172.5-:.').)
BAIN, Hon. JOHN J., Judge of Court of Queen's Bench of Province of Manitoba.
Page 65
Resident twenty years. Judge five years (31557-8) ; license law broken, Sunday observ-
ance bad, minor's clause observed, illicit selling prevalent (31561-81 ) ; enforce-
ment of all law depends on public sentiment (31582, 31591-2 31612, 3161.5,) ;
hotel preferable to saloon license (31575) ; favours high license, limitation of
number, regulation and inspection (31576-7, 31614) ; liquor easily obtained
under prohibition in Maine (31587-90) ; prohibition practicable (31591) ; law
not enforced, demoralizing (31595); crime and. liquor (31598-600) ; prohibi-
tion in North-west unsuccessful and demoralizing (31675-9).
BELL, GORDON, M.D., Medical Superintendent of Manitoba Reformatory . . Page 172
Resident five years, recently appointed Superintendent (33331-5) ; inmates in asylum
and liquor (33336-41) ; proportion attributable to liquor (33342-7, 33364-7) ;
heredity (33363) ; Scott Act in Renfrew beneficial (33348-50) ; repealed, peo-
ple not in sympathy (33351-6) ; favours total prohibition ; anti compensation
(33357-8, 33373) ; total abstinence compatible with best health (33369-72).
BROWN, CHARLES J. of Winnipeg, City Clerk Page 91
Resident twenty years (31965-8) ; city obtains revenue from license (31969-72).
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
liUHllANK, KDWAIU) A., of Winnipoj,', Miiimj,aT of Mercliiiiits' Protective Law
and Collection Association Piif^e 13*1
Resident in Province four years (.'12743) ; prohibition in Kansas, Iowa and ^fnine,
laws without prohiljition : iicpior ohtuinablf by j)liysiciiiMs' lertiticates, "blind
pii{s,'' and illicit dives (.'{274r)-71 ) ; United States licenses : possession /triiiia
jhcii' evidence of breach of law in Maine (.■<:.'740-(!()) ; statistics for Maine and
New Hampshire (;i2778-823) ; local option failure at Carman (;52792-800) ;
favours absolute prohibition if practicable, but not practicable (32791-9,
32900); license law well observed in Deloraine (32>HSfi-9l ) ; favours inspection
of li(|Uor (32iS40-i) ; favours compensation (32813).
COKDINGLEY, CHAKLES H., of Winnipeg, Accounta.it Paye 15U
Secretary of Licensed Victuallers' Association of ^^anitoba ; in Province six years,
with Villie, Carey A Co., wholesale li(|Uor merchants (3303()-7, 33097-9);
license law well observed ; violated by low class ; Sunday sales (33042-3,
33096-100) ; Victuallers' Association en'forces law (33099-108) ; anti prohibi-
tion on principle ; prohibition would depreciate property ; li(iuor trade does
not ; favours high license (33070-93).
COSTKJAN, HENRY A., of Winnipeg, Collector of Inland Revenue Page 14
In Winnipeg fourteen years ; collector six years (300()()-7) ; consumption of li(|uor
decreased in last ten years (30670-72) ; occasional illicit distilling (30671-80) ;
stills seized ; illicit distillers sell as fast as they make (307421-22) ; smuggling in
Manitoba and Territories (30G87, 30690, 30730-33) ; permit system in Terri-
tories non-prohil)itory ; diliicult of administration ; permits indiscriminately
granted (30711-30728).
COUTLEE, LOUIS W.; of Winnipeg, Commander of Field Battery Page 8S
Resident eleven years ; formerly connected with the Canadian Pacific Railway ;
Deputy Attorney General for Manitoba (31910-12) ; Dominion Public Works
Act enforced on construction ; Province of Manitoba sought to put Provincial
law in force and issue licenses; unsuccessful (31913-16); Act dirticult of
enforcement; smuggling in all shapes (31917-19): prohibition in Maine not
observed (31921-4); prohibition impracticable in Manitoba (31913).
DREW^RY, EDWARD L., of Winnipeg, Brewer Page 33
In Winnipeg eighteen years (30979-82) ; output of beer steadily increased ; sold in
North-west and Manitoba (30983-024; ; permit system beneficial to brewing
(31003, 31027); license law increased sales; permits abused (31031-33);
license law in Winnipeg well observed (31006-7) ; regulation of tratHc desir-
able (31036, 31047) ; high license produces illicit selling ; restaurants neces-
sary (31017-21) ; favours compen.sation (^31022) ; anti prohibition (31061-70).
DRUMMOND, HENRY M., of Winnipeg, Assistant Receiver 'ieneral Page 04
Resident twenty years ; Dominion Auditor ; manager Dominion Savings Bank
(32039-40) ; favours compensation (32050-53).
DYKES, ANDREW, of Winnipeg, Tea Merchant Page 117
Resident ten years (32405) ; local option in Melrose, Manitoba, works well ; liquor
for private use obtainable ; illicit selling and fancy hou,SbS stopped (32410-33) ;
difficulties of license law (32436); unsuccessful in Winnipeg (32499-501);
law not enforced (32438, 32474 80) ; favours prohibition : untrammelled sale
preferable to license (32439-42, 32511) ; anti compensation (32443-7) ; liquor
trade injures business ; depreciates property ; increases insurance (32487-97) ;
prohibition desirable ; revenue maintainable (32504-6 ; 32512-15).
FERRE, MARTIN, of Winnipeg, Importer and Compounder of Wines .... Page 143
Compounds liqueurs and light wines, not gin ; tonics ; innoccunus in small
quantities ; hurtful in large, like natural wines (32908rt).
672
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
GAULT, (;PX)I{(iK F., ..f Winnipfg, Wholesale Mfichant Page lai
Holds wholfsalt' lifiuor iifPiisc, rt'sident elexeti years, soi'ial lialdts iiii|ii'(>viiig
(;iL'5'20-()) ; DiinUiii ami Seott Acts do nut iiitci't'cro witii iii|Uor triitlic
(32r)324) ; create hitter feelings; iitjuor for pi'i\ate use (.'{•.Tidi; ."SlTi',!;!-!).
Prohibition in liin North-west led to excess ; li(|Uor aluiscd (.'(•JoOli-TO) ; per-
mit system good at first; sales largei' now, li(|uoi- tu)w iield in stock (.'{iTt'l-lSH);
anti prohibition ; imprni'ticabh^ (.■{•_'") lO-"2 ; .ji'.') 9 ")-(')) ; license pi'efei'able to
prohibition (.S'JTjHO). Licensees observe law; would sell illicitly under j)ro-
liibition (32r)89-00; .■{2(>28) ; favours compensation (;5l'512) ; favours heavy
duty on spirits; high license ; restriction of numbers and suppression of illicit
sale (l{2.)l-'5-59) ; favours Uovernnient asylums for intOiriates (;{2r)97-tJO.'{) \
plebiscite vote insignificant (.'(2004).
UKABUJINE, C. TL, Clerk of Executive Council of Province of Manitoba. Pago 142
Returns of plebiscite; I'eal desire for prohibition (.'52909-12) ; prohibition beneficial,
practicable, necessary to civilization, must come (|uickly (329i.'{-ll) ; favours
compensation (32917) ; license law not enforced, defective (.'52920-0) ; license
preferrable to untrannnelled sale (.'52023-")).
KEN KICK, EDWARD H., Public Analyst, of Winnipeg Page 144
Lecturer on Chemist I'y in l'ni\ersity of Manitoba; niaile analyses of spii'its and
beers ; found no harmful ingredients, high standard of alcohol (32931-53) : fi'e-
quent analyses of li(|U0i', as sold, desirable (32945-7).
KILLAM, Hon. ALP.ERT C, of Winnipeg, Judge of the Court of Queen's JSencli,
Province of Manitoba Page 14^
Resident fourteen years, on I'ench seven years ; drinking decreased (32948-.")2) ;
Favours restraint foi' persistent drunks (329();'. ; 3297.")) ; Yarmouth, N.S., no
licenses issued, illicit sale (.'52904-07); licjuor oljtainable in Maine (.'529(58) ;
and in Colchester and Essex under Dunkin Act, and in the North-west Ter-
ritory (32970-71) ; prohibition .dithcult, enforcement dependent u])on pub-
lic sentiment (32972) ; non-enforced law demoi'alizing ; pUibiscite vote test
of public sentiment (32970-7) ; favoui's compensation (32973).
LAWLER, PATRICK, of Wiuniiieg, Governor of Eastern District of Manitoba
Jail Page «7
Resident twelve years (31878); crime and liquor (31887-92; 31908-9); trade
decreased (31894-0).
LE ACOCK, E P., of St. Boniface, C. P. R. Agent at Winnipeg Page 47
Resident fourteen years, formerly member of Legislative Assend)ly and Magistrate
(3128.")-7) ; prepared license; law adopted by present (Government ; Act spoiled
by licensed victuallers' amendments ; not enforced ; [)rosecutions (piashed ;
convictions annulled (31285-300) ; plebiscite vote no test of prohil)ition senti-
ment (31293-5) : Manitoba not ready for prohibitor, i..v (31304-31) ; vested
interests must be protected (31308) ; prohiljition ir ;'i'' N'ortli-west Tei-ritories
failed; more drinking then, than at present (3131U-19) ; hotel-keepers best
inspectors (31320).
LENAN, D. F., of Winnipeg, Hotel-keeper i'age 4«
Resident ten years (31280) ; license bur undergone many changes ; content with
present hour restrictions (31281-4).
McARTHUR, DUNCAN, of Winnipeg, Banker Page 111
Resident twenty years ; social customs changed beneficially ; drinking prevalent ( 1 ) .
examples of churches and Lieutenant-Governors (2) ; liquor trade injurious ;
cost dead loss (3) ; license fairly observed ; illicit sale exists ; persistent drunk-
ards retiuire Government cai'o (4-7) ; prohibition practicable ; favours compen-
sation (8-10).
673
21—43**
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
McC'AIJj, KI5KNEZKH, SuporinteiKlfiU of liidiiin Ailairs l'ii«<' lO
Duties ill district (30r)15-2'_') ; liidiaiis |)n»liil)itf(l from liqum- : driiikiiiK at tiiiic
of treaty liaymerits : ii(|Uor .siipplicd l)y disroimtablc im-ii ;;fU<)i.'()-i^) ; intoxi-
cated I iidiiins severely puiiislied (:5(M);iO) ; law eiifoired (.'iOtl.'il l>) ; elFects of
prohiliition will show in next ;^eiiei'atioii (IJOOJO")!).
McD()NALI>, ALKXANDEH, flavor of Winnipeg . . Page 51
Hesident twent^'-one years ; ("liairnian of Police Comiiiissioners : wholesale grocer
(.'il."i,'J'J-H) ; drinking liahits unchanged (lUStn.'.l) ; niode of ohiaining license
(,'il3"i3-4):ohservunceof law inipi'ov ing(.'mi.")r), 31lO")-7) : Sunilay '^^IHng exists
(3l3r)r»-()) ; minors not supplied (31357-^): grocery and li(|Uiir stores must he
sppaiate(313")9); favours liigli license with inspection(313.")ll-(i I); jiermit system
produced drinking, not enforced . jn'miits loosely issued (3i;j.S4-"), 31 lU'.MO) ;
faxours national proliihition ; pnicticahle (3138(1-1), 31H.'U) ; fas'ours coniiK-n-
sation (31404) ; plehiscite vote expressed puhlic sentiment (31111-1")); Scott
Act unsatisfactory (3M2()-'J, 31423) ; liquor adverse to wage-earners (31437-41).
McLENNAX, 1. K., of Winnipeg, (Jrain Merchant Page 14'7
Hesident four years ; license act not ohserved, antiliceiise (32988-90) ; wants jinj-
hibition ; favours high license with insjiection, rather than untrammelled sale
(32993-33000); prohihition jM'acticahle (33019); illicit sale preferal)le to
licensed taverns (33007-9, .33020-21); disorder under license in Canuan
(33010-14, 3302G-3")) ; anti com})ensation, prohihition heneficial to business
(?;'015-18).
McRAE, J. C. Chief Constable of tiie City of Winnipeg Pag' '<
Resident since 1881, Chief Constable since 1887, no special duties under lie
(|uiet drunks unmolested ; no police inspection under license (30r)39-.")0, 3
1): houses watched under special instructions (3U")78-y, 30.58r)-92) ; minors
and T'-dians obtain liquor (30r)r)4-7) ; hotels pi'eferahh! to restaui'ants (30r)59,
30()0.")) ; law practicable (30r)98) : crime anil li(iuor (30r)7<i-7) ; favours coni-
]>ensation (30G10-1-1).
M'JLOCK, WILLIA^I K., Q.C. of Wiiniipeg, President Prohibition League of Mani-
toba Page 13»
Resident tea years ; use of wine decreasing (32()33-9) ; license law disregarded ;
Sundiiy sales ; minors supplied : lack of otlicers for enforcement (32040-54,
32723, 32733-7) ; Government decline enforcement : relations with city strained
(326r)3-G0, 32680-")) ; anti license ; prohibition practicable (320.55-67, 32078-
80, 32094, 32708); liijuor commercially injurious (32090-99, 32751); anti
compensation (32603-5) ; plebiscite vote expressed public sentiment (32068-76).
NIXOX, EDWARD BARXETT, of Winnipeg, Hudson Bay Company's Manager
Patre 18
Resident since 1882 (30738) ; Company sell liquor (30748-51) ; liquor sold in Terri-
tories under permit (30760, 30785-8) ; Sunday ])rohibition observed (30745,
30790) ; drinking not increasing (30791) ; favours limitation of licenses
(30793-6) ; smuggling under prohibition (30770-79) ; liquor under Dunkin
Acu in Richmond, P.Q., (308.31-6) ; prohibition impracticable in Manitoba ;
would injure trade (30818-30).
NIXOX, THOMAS, of Winnipeg, Right-of-way Agent, C. P. R Page 37
Resident eighteen years (31076-80) ; license law disregarded (31081) ; anti license ;
license preferable to untrammelled tratKc (31091-5, 31261-2) ; favours prohibi-
tion; practicable (32096-108); illicit stills exist (31110-20); anti compensa-
tion (31110); liquor trade injurious to business (31111-17); Would confine
habitual drunkards (31122-8) ; prohibition effective in Pasadena, Cal. (31129-
37); restaurants preferable to hotels (31164-7); Maine law well enforced
(31168-75); plebiscite vote fair test (31200); Methodist Church and liquor
dealers (31263-6) ; licensees mostly ruined by their trade (31268-70).
674
Index and Anal vs is of Evidence.
J
f
^^
OUTOX, (iK()l{(iE, .M.l)„ ««t' Winiiipc;,', Mciliciil InsiKn'tor of liidiiuis Pago 77
M<!nilM'r<»t' Parliiiiiit'iit fuiii'tfcti yoai's (H17")U): lirciisc law I'tH-i'tivo (.'i 1 7 M)-'J); fivvniirs
riifiil lii'fiisr witli ciifuri'fd rcstrictidiis (3177;V7!t, .'Ui'^OSt) ; pn'si-iit |)rnliil)iti\('
clauses not t'nt'orcfd (.'U 7f<l-'_', .'US.");i-4) ; permit system in N.W.'I". coiitiiminiNly
infringed (.'U7l.'5-").'i, .'U7.")!l-cS | J) ; |iriiiiil>itiuii inipractieahle, popular sentiment
op|iosed (•■<l7i)l, Hi 7*')"), .'U81 t) ; favours eompensation (.'il7">2) ; plel)iseite vote
no criterion (;M7l><!-7, .■W7i'^('i; enforced prohibition on Indian reserves, heneti-
cial. violated {.■(17'.tl'-.'^0.'i) ; abstinence inconipatil)le with the hest iiealtli (.'U'^l.j-
3U) ; Scott Act in Ontario unsuccessful, in .Manitoha dead letter (31708-70,
31804-',).
PEKIiLKS, ADAM JoUX LANK, of Winnipeg, Police ^lagistrato Page a
Resident in Winnipeg since IS70 (3()l.'{()-7) ; tries cases from country districts,
takes preliminai'v examinations in criminal cases, charges of drunkennes. ''.in;
disoi'der (30440-4) ; small number of cases of drunkenness, illicit stalling fre-
(|uent (4044")-9) : favours fewer licenses ; increased restrictions and aholition
of restaurants (.•i04")-'-4, 30r)13); crime and licjuor (30178-1) 1, 30.")0'J-lO) ; sales
to Indians (30 JL'8-31).
8EMMENS, 1{kv. JOHN, of Winnipeg, President of JIanitolia and North west
Methodist Conference Page ItSft
Resident five years (33140); submits deliverance of Confei'ence on [)rohibition,
unanimously adopted (33144-r)8) : uiti compensation, licensing sinful ; faM)urs
hotels only, with detached bars (■■1148-00); plel)iscite vote honest ''epresen-
tation of public opinion (33171--) ; prohibition practicable (31173-4); prohi-
bition bv Hudson J!ay Company in Keewatin in days of Sir (Jeorgt^ Simpson,
beneticial (33102 81.)
SCPIULTZ, Hon. JOHN, Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba, Winnipeg. . . . Page ItlM
Known the country since 1800 ; system of government then ; Indians prohibited
from intoxicants till 1800 ; license laws of 185") and 1809 ; Mounted Police en-
force prohibition ; pi'ohibitionduring railway consti'uction ; regulations of North-
west Council ; prohil)ition in Keewatin ; results of Dominion prohii)ition enact-
ments; secure trade with Indians : country settled and railways constructed,
without crime; immunity of C.P.R. from accident due to employing non-
drinkers ; plebiscite vote expressed conviction ; prohibition oidy cui'e for radi-
cal evil ; practicable ; military experience proves lic|Uor unnecessary.
tSIFTON, JOHN, W., of Winnipeg, Provincial Inspector of Asvlums and Prisons.
Page »-4
Resident eighteen years, formerly Member and Speaker of Lower House, Magistrate,
contractor on C.P.R. (32102-4) ; crime and insanity and liijuor (32070-.')) ; in-
mates of asylum and hospitals through excessive drinking (3208.3-7) ; di'inking
decreasing (32088-91) ; plebiscite vote earnest ; Scott Act in Manit(»ba, declared
invalid on technical grounds (32094-0, 32ir)4) ; pr<ihil)ition practicable (32098,
32114, 321.35-0) ; proved on C.P.R. construction (.32105-8) ; and in California
(32109-13); revenue maintainable under prohibition (.32120-33); license pre-
feral)le to free tratlic (32100-01.)
SMALL, WILLIAM, of Winnipeg, Carpenter Page 102
Resident since 1884, formerly Vice-president of Trade and Labour Council and
Master Workman Knights of Labour(32207) ; prohibitiondesirable, l)eneficial for
nation (32220-2) ; practicable (32223-4, 32255) ; anti compensation (32220-7) ;
license sinful, preferable to free sale : stopped prohibition (32229-37) ; hotels
worse than .saloons (32?3r) ; employers, wage earners and li(|uor (32243,
32201-75.)
675
21— 43P*
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
STEEN, JAMES L., of Winnipeg, Presirteut of Board of Trade Page 57
Resident eleven years, publisher of trade journal (31449-54) ; business niisfortune>i
and liquor (314(>0; 31492-3); li.|uor and lunacy (314G1--J) : proliibitinn in
Iowa a iiuge blunder (31460-7; 31514-16); mure drunkards in Iowa than
Manitoba (31466-8; 31517-1'0) ; prohibition tor Dominion; unmitigated
tolly; impracticable (31521-8); law only partially respected, powerless
(31530) ; prohibition class legislation (31551-3) ; bresving industry beneticial
(31482); favours compensation (31474).
STEWARl, Rkv. JOHN, of Trahern, Methodist Minister Page lOO
Resident three years (32278) ; Scott Act in Brome, Knowlton and Mississquoi
enforced (322S3-4) , Methodist Church favours prohibition ; men in traffic
debarred church privileges (32290-0); deaths from adulteration (32304-0);
prohibition voted in South Norfolk: upset through tecliniealitv (3231 1-19 ;
32327; 32332): license preferable to free sale (32308) ; plebiscite vote dead
earnest (32329-33) anti compensation (32310) ; crime and liquor (32341).
THOMPSON, FREDERICK W., of Winnipeg, ^lanager (»gilvie Flour Mills. Page 113
Resident ten years (32345) ; compels sobriety in employees (32352-5 ; 32300-75) ;
Dunkin Act in M'ssisquoi inoperative, a farce (32359-00 ; 32377-80) ; favours
compensation (32.302) ; liquor different from other industries (32392-404).
TUPPER, RICHARD LATOUCHE, of Selkirk, Man., Dominion Fishery Officer,
Page 22
Resident in Winnipeg since 1878 : Chief Inspector under the McCartliv Act ;
author of Ma-iiUjba Act ; McCarthy Act beneficial (30841-49 ; 30909-70)
habitual drunkards should be treated as lunatics (30862-0) ; drinking decreas-
ing (30870-82); hotels prefi-rable to restaurants (30873-8) ; prohibition in
Iowa a failure (^0884-9) ; tines instead of license (30943-50) ; permit system
in North-west a failure ; compounds used (30959-61 : 30890-0): prohibitory
law impracticable (30897-30958) ; favours con.pensatio!i (30899) ; objects of
Provincial law (30900-21) : indiscriminate sale evil (30905) : snuiggling in
Territories during rebellion (30894); local option ill-advised (30971-2).
BR/.NDON, 29th OCTOBER, 1892.
BOISSEAU, AL.niED S., of Brandon, Hotel-keeper Page 215
In Brandon ten years ; in ilanitoba twelve years (34203-4) ; License Act observed
(34212-15) ; prohibition impossible, legislation unjustifiable (34222 ; 34245-47) ;
plebiscite vote a mistake (34248-50) ; meals do not pay hotel-keepers ; li(jUor
necessary (34226 ; 34240) ; favours compensation (34225).
CAMERON, Rev. ALEXANDER H., of IJrandon, Presbyterian Minister .. Page 1U»
In Manitoba eleven years ; two years in North west under proliibition (3.3797-802).
High license at Donald failure (.'i3805-i5). Illicit selling at Arthracite j
immorality at Revelstoke (33818-28). Prohibition enforced at lianf. (33831).
Prohibition desirable, practicable and applicable (33839-41 ; 33853-9). Pro-
hibition on Canadian Pacific Railway construction (33942-52). Favours com-
pensation (33863-8).
CLEMENT, STEPHEN, of Brandon, Sheriff of We.stern Judicial Distrct of Mani-
toba Pagc*20«
Resident since 1880 (34035-7). Prohibition in North-west beneficial, a farce ;
excessive drinking ; smuggling and adulteration (34041-52). Crime and liquor
(34054-8). Asylums for inebriates (34060-7). Prohibition desirable, practi-
cable (34009-73). Favours moderate compensation (34078-9). c'^^ii'' -"
676
Index and Analysis of Evidence,
COOPER, DAVID H., of Brandon, Barrister, Manager of Freeboici Loan and Savings
Company Puge 11»3
Resident ten years, license law enforced, violations (.'i.'i74S-r)(\. Proiiihition enforce
able; anti compensation (.■i;57-")G-7). Li(|Uor injurious i) business (.S;375S-(38).
DANIELS, Rkv. S., of Brandon, Methodist Minister Page; IHH
Favours total proiiibition (;5;?r).'}r)-8) : for Dominion, not Province (3.'U)'il)). Enforce-
ment dependent on public sentiment (3.'?()4l-4). Anti cumpensUion (."5304.")).
Prohibition beneficial in North-west Territories : ^lounted I'olice vigilant
(33047-06).
FERGUSON, WILLIAM of Brandon, Wholesale Liciuor Dealer Page 199
Resident ten years, license enforced in Brandon (33.'^9S-()00]. Hotels ilepend on
liquor (3394!)-o5). I^avoui's asylum for i)ersistent drunks ; law allows interdic-
tion (33901-"), 33<JoS-f)). Trade in North-west wliolesale under i)ermit (3311 li>-
17). Favours universal prohibition; impossible in i' ,nit()l)a ; favours com-
pensation (3.3938-41) ; would produce smuggling (.■')3939-47).
HESSON, FRED H., of Brandon, Collector of Customs Page 175
Resident ten years (33374-5). Liquor traffic under prohibition in Brandon (33379-
83, 33390-402). Drinking inc?eased under license (33403-(;). Prohibition
impracticable J favours compensation (33393-4). License law enforcer! prefer-
able (3339')).
HUG HILL, L. F., of Brandon, J..urna!ist Page 1«»
In Pi ovince twenty year.-, (33Cf:)b-70). Prohibition in North-west not enforced;
snuiggling; heavy drinking (.33070-80, 33707-13), Exterision of permit
decreased smuggling (33()Sl'-()), License pivferalile toprohibition not enforced
(33087). Isivours hiirh license and restrictions ; hotels pieferable to saloons
(330i>7-8). Prohil)ition tlioi'oughly ei-forced good, impracticable (.3,30.'^8-90,
33719-2"_'). Non-enforced law evil (.33ii94-(>), Plebiscite vote no ci-iterion
(33723-38). Favours compensation (33692).
INKSTEB, COLIN, of Kildonan, Sheriff of Eastern Judicial District of ^fanitoba.
Page «>1
Enforced license before confederation (31977-31997). Beneficial cliange in public
o[)iiiion (.32034-7). Prohibition good if practicable ; favours compensation
(32024-30).
JENKINS, Hi.;v. AV. H,, of Brandon, Baptist Minist.'r Page 213
Resident two years (34150). Scott Act enforced in Advocate, N.S. (34163-71).
Favour's prohibition ; lic(Mising wrong ; anti compensation (34172-80). Baptist
Conf« rence deliverance (34170-1).
JOHNSTON, WILLIAAr, of Brandon, Agricultural Implement Dealer. . . .Page |«5
Resident ten years (33744) ; moi'e drinking und« Dunkin Act in (irey, Ont., than
under License ; Act impracticable (.337t !, 33789-9.3) ; faxouis proiiibition
(33785-7).
JUKES, EDWAIiD, of P.randon, Manager of Imperial Bank Page 203
Resident thirteen years (.33944-5) ; number of licenses immaterial ; hotels prefei'able
to saloons (34001-2, 34017 30) ; anti j)rolubition (.31006-7) ; pr<iliil)iti(in jiracti-
cable if supported by public sentiment (31009, .34022 2.3); drink tratlic (nil
(34053-4) ; favours compensation (.34011) ; advocates ii-^vlums for confirmed
inebriates (34014-10.)
KIRCALDY, JAMES, Cliief cf Police of Brandon Page 11K»
Resident fourteen months (.3.3209-70) ; presents statistics of crimes (33271-4) ;
advocates higli license (33283-4^ ; Less drinking in Brandon than in England
(33282).
677
7
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
McDI AKMID, JOHN, M.T)., Mayor of Brandon Page ITO
Resident ten years (3:1286) ; favours higli license (.■i:}29o-33;507) : litfusees mostly
intemperate (3330")) ; prohibition good ; impracticable (33-_'lt!)-<i".i, 33308-15);
benefits of liquor questionable (33302-3^ : favours compensation (i3301, 33319,
33329) ; prohibition sentiment growing (33315).
MacDONALD, JOHN A., M.D., of Brandon Page 20S
Resident nine years ; license law observed (34088-9) : liiiuorsadiilti'iatcd (34090-4);
interdiction or confine. nent for persistent drunks (3409r)-ti); proliibition im-
practicable unless continental law (34098-109) : plebiscite vole U>v Dominion,
not Provincial legislation (34144-50) : favours compensatinn (34110-13);
moderate use of alcohol not injurious (34121-3, 34127-^) : <lriiiking heredi-
tary (34124, 34130).
MacDONALD, WILLIAM A., M.P.P., of Brandon, Barrister Page ITS
Resident ten years (33454-8); license law observed fairly (-'iUfil^, 33473-4);
Dunkin Act in Pelham, Ont., failed (33469-71, 33475-9); favours prohibition;
plebiscite indicated popular sentiment (3:5480-4) ; favours toiiquMisation (33472).
PETERSON, A. M., of Brandon, Lawyer Page 176
Resident ten years ; Crown OfHcer for Western Judicial District foui- years (33407-
11): crime and liquor (33414-19) : license law violated (:!3420-8) : diHiculties
with witnesses (33433-49) ; favours prohibition if prattii- ible (33429-41) ; ple-
biscite vote not a critei-ion (3:5452-3) ; anti compensation {33443^.
SPENCER, RICHMOND, M.D., of Bramhm Page 184
Resident elo'en years (33561-2) : license law observed faiily (:>:S569-71) ; strict en-
forcement desirable (33585-7) : favours restriction (:>:i()l8) : persistent drunk-
ards deserve flogging (33572-3, 33605-13) : favours iiiuli license : prohibition
im[>racticable (3:5575-8, 3:5589-95) : drunkeiniess lieicditary (33622-4) ; authori-
ties favour licensees (:53622-3) ; total abstainers arc licst men (336:51) ; favours
compensation (:53579).
TODI ), JOHN CAMPDEN, Police Magistrato of P.randon Page H84
Resident eleven years (33182-3) ; adjudi' .tes on all otl'enccs : frequent cases of Ijreach
of license (:53188-98) ; high license does not lessen drinking (33207-11, 33223-
9) : difKculties of conviction through witnesses (32:i:5U-39) : crime and liquor
■ (33204, 33240-4) ; prohibition only remedy : praetieahie (33205-15, 33255-7) ;
plei)iscite vote expressed public sentiment (:5:52"i2-tW ) : fn\ours compensation
(33222).
URQUHART, Rkv. ALEXANDER, of Urandon. Preshyt.iiMn .Minister. .. Pag- IHl
Resident nine years (3:5501) : evil effects of liquor (:i:55rj-14) ; crime and immor-
ality due to li(iuor(:5:555',t.60) : favours prohibition tor Dominion ; pi-acticable
(33520-9) ; action of .Synod (3:5532f(-:59) ; permit ]iret'erable U> license ^33534-
48) ; anti compensation (3:5530-33).
WOODSWORTH, Rkv. JAMES, of Brandon, .Methodi-i Minister Page 202
Resident ten years (3396:5-4) : agrees in deliverance of .Metliodist Ceneral Assem-
bly (3:59(57-8) ; prohil)ition practicable (3:5985-7) : anti compensation (:5:5979-
80) ; licensing sin (:5397;5-6) ; permit system loosely administered (:5:5988-(ll ) :
drinking increased under license (:!:5992) : lii|uor traliic injurious in morals,
religion and business (3:5981-2) ; responsilde for crime (:5398:5).
678
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
REGINA, 31st OCTOBER, AND 4th OF NOVEMBER, 1892.
ARKLE, GEORGE, of Regina, Farmer Page S49
Resident since 1888 (.■U814) ; prohibition in Iowa a fraud (."54824-0) ; license pre-
ferable to prohibition in North-west (34827) : permit system class legislation
(34848-50) : compounds used (34830-7) , prohibition impracticable and in-
jurious (34834-0 ; 34857-8 ; 348G3-6 ; 34880-7) ; favourscompensation (34830) ;
license law violated (34809-73) ; liquor trade beneficial for revenue (34879-5) ;
favoui's inspection (348!<9-91) ; Public Works Act beneficial (34893).
BEXSON, JAMES H., of Regina, Sheriff of Judicial District of Western Assi-
niboia ^''ig'- 25itt
Resident ten years (34620-3) ; permit system enforced at Krst ; li(iuor (il)tainable ;
snmggiing and illicit sale (34029-33; 34044-81); 4 per cent Ijcjer increased
drinking (34030-7; 34049-50); sentiment against police (34040-8): ])rohibi-
tion impracticable (34038) ; opposed to principle (34000-1 ; 34004-7 ; 34072-4) ;
prohibition enforced, advantage doubtful (34084) ; license observed (34602-3).
BROWN, GEORGE WlLLIAil, of Regina, Law Student Page »53
Resident ten years (30873); poriiiits rarely issued at first: smuggling existed;
inci-ease of permits, more liipior ; 4 per cent beer caused free sale (3()S76-9) ;
popular sympathy anti permit (30882-3 ; .30947-53) : Mounted Police enforced
law (30912-20); "license incrensed drinking (308.S0-2 ; 30939-44): plebiscite
refused (30953-0) ; no temperance organization in last election (30950-8) ; pro-
hibition practicable (30885-0: 30S89-91 1 : 3()921-29) ; anti eonipensalion
(30887-98).
BROWN, JAMES, of Regina, Secretary of the ! ;oard of Educiti. <n Pag.- 2,15
Resident ten years (.349.35) ; drinking in Maine and Vermont under pi'oliiliitinn
(34941-3) : prohibition in North-west not enforced (.! 1945-9 ; 34905-0) : ni'iie
sobriety under license (34952-7) ; anti prohibition (">4958 ; 35007-^): favours
compensation (34959): persistent drunks shoiil<l be refoi'med i^M9()0-t;
34974-5; 349S4-0 ; 3.5009-10).
CAMERON, DUNCAN, of Regina, Sewing ^lachine Agent Pa^.' :$,■>«
Resident fourteen years (3()990) ; Scott Act success in Elgin County,* >nt.. (30997 9);
lessdrinking under permit than license (.37001) ; ii''>'niit practical)le (37014;
37022) ; permits re-used (37007-S) : >b)unte(l Police enforce law (37024-5) ; in-
formers looked upon with coMtem[it (37030-0) ; fa\nurs prohibit ion : anti com-
pensation (.37001-0): license no improvement (.370lU-13j; Scott Act failed iu
AUiston (37019).
COLPITIS, EN( )CH, (.f :\Ioose Jaw, Gardener I' ige :M,"5
Resident ten years (.36090); jiermit system prohil)itory at first (307<'l-25) ; diink-
ing incre.'isfil with 4 j)er cent beer (.30707-9 ; 30720-2!!) ; faxnurs jirohibition ;
practicable in Moo.se .law (.3G71S-2<J : .3()7-30l 1) : Mounted Police (Miforced law
(30747-59). Favours compensation (.3(')7.3I) ; prohibition no issue at election
(30929-33) : witnesses unwilling to testify in liquor cases (30761-67).
CIIEAMEU, JAMKS, of Hegina, Veterinary Surgeon Page »10
ResitU-nt si.x years (36561 ) ; licen.se preferal)le to permit (.3t)56S) : uniler permit
smuggling existed, conq)ounds were used, police endeavoui'ed to enforce law
(36.569-S3 ; 30591-99) ; prohibition impractical)le (.305f<4): unlicensed traffic
injurious (30587-90) ; prohiljition increases drinking (30012-14).
679
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
EDDY, WILLIAM P., of Rcgina, JUiilder and Contractor, Pago 34»
Resident ten years {^G7'M-2) ; Scott Act in Durlijim, Ont., suecessfiil. ropcaled as
local affair (.■50794-.^04) ; favours prohibition. lii|U<)r tratlic wrong, 'inti com-
pensation (.30804-12 ; .'JOS.'}',)) ; prohibition enforced in Territories l)v Mounted
Poli -• - . -
(••
'olico ; mo(fl drinking under license (3G813-34) ; does not employ drinkers
.•5()8l';")-7).
FORGET, AMEDEE EMANUEL, of J{egina, Assistant Indian C(mimissi,)ner.
Page 2-15
Resident since 1870 ; jnohibitory law in Territories not successful : liquoi- miUI
(.■i47.">"J ; .'{4707-7-); reconmiendations of ajiplicant re(]uired (.■{477.'i); 4 per
cent i)oer beneficial (.'54774 ; .'54709) ; permits increased to suppress snuiggling
(•'54794-0) ; increase in consumption and jiojiuiation proy)ortionatP (.'5477;"'>-!^0 ;
34797-800) ; lic(>nse not enforced (34701-4) : favours com|)ensation (3170.')-0) ;
prohibition beneficial if it could be enforced; general ])rohii)iti(in would not
work (34784-810). ' .
GAdNON, SEVERE, of Regina, Superintendent of North-west Mounted Police.
Page .S
Resident nineteen years (35094-99) ; liijuoi- scarce at Edmonton (3,")701-'j) : drink-
ing bouts undei' permit {.'?.")708-9) ; seizures unilcr permit (3.")710-18) ; favours
use of wines and ales (357l'1 ).
GILLESPIE, DAVID H., of Regina, F.ivery K.-eper Page »4«
Resident ten years (.'50708-9) : license i>referable to permit (3077.'5-4 ; 3()7''^-) ;
better for l)usiness (.'50775-7) ; compound drinks under jiermit (.'50778) ; i)ro-
hibition, if enforced, good (3078.'5-88).
GORDON, ROBERT II., of Regina, Clerk of Legislative A.ssembiy ami Secretary to
Lieutenant-tiovernor P'>g** 22^i
Resident sinciH 885 (.'54419). PiM'mit system impracticable; issue increased with
population, and to decrease smuggling (344l'3-30 ; .'>44(').'5-70) ; permits issucul
by Goxernor on reconnnendation (.'54444-0 ; 34471) ; no second supply on same
permit (34454-8) ; liquor sold under permit (.'540()O-4) ; prohibition impi'actic-
al)le ; proved by permit system (.'5 1 t.'5l' .3 ; .')448l'-.")) ; license preferable
(34437-43 ; 34477-81) ; favours compensation (34481 ).
HARVEY, JA.MES, of Indian Head, Parmer Page 251
Itesidcnt ten years (.'54894) ; prohibition successful (31S9S; 31903); favours pro-
hibition (34902 : 34908-10) ; Mounted Police enforced law (34899-900); anti
compensation (34914) : license increased (blinking (.'5491 5-20) ; jirefers pei'mit
to 4 per cent beer or license (.'54932).
HENDERSON, WILLIAM, of Regina, Architect anil i'.ngiiu'er Page 23»
Itesident f(Uirteen years (.'55012) ; license expedient, prohibition preferable (35017-
20) ; favours high license and restriction (.'55028-31); permit system not suc-
t'c.ssful, preferable to 4 per cent beer or license (350.'52-4 ; .'55040-47) ; favours
compensation (35027).
HONEY.AL\N, JOHN R. C, of Regina, .lournalist Page »,».H
Resident since 1885, formerly on Mounted I'oiice (.'50983-5) ; police enforced iier-
mit (30980-88) ; faithfully patrolled the country, prevented smuggling and
.seized illicit stills (3099.'5").
JOHNSTON, TIIO:MPSON COOK, of Regina. Barrister Page 201
Resident ten years (.'55054) ; Dunkin .Vet in York County, Ontario, in force two
yeai-s, found insuHicient, repealed (35058-9 ; .'5.5070-85) ; pniliibition in North-
west impossible of enforcement, smuggling carried on (.'! 5000-0 ; 35095-10.'5;
35119); prohibition impracticable (35002-0 ; 35080-93); popular sentiment
680
Index and Analysis of Evidencfj.
>-i
ti
lit
irs
ll-
:5;
nt
JoiiKSTOx, Thompson Cook. — Cotufudnl.
iinti }»r()hil)iti()n, pi'ctVrs liociisc (.'5")OS7 S ; .■J")l.S'_'-.'i) ; fiuours coiniiciisation
(.'JoOd'.)) ; liij{li lifi'iisc ami ins|if(.'ti(in (.'{rjOTl!-."!) : license system not ent'ori'ed
(3r)107-ir2 ; ;■).") 1 -0-2) ; Iiuliiiiis aiul lliilf-brceils |)r<)liil>ite(l niider license
(;551. ■?!)).
KKlil!, .lOJlN H., of |{egin;i, Huitlwaie Merchant. . '. I'ii-e »51
Resident ten years (.'JGSH) ; jirefers iicen.se to permit (.'?Gi'< Id) ; snmu^^iinj,' uiidei-
j)ernait, eonijxjiinds used (iJCiS 17-.' I) ; pr()liil)iti()ii inipiiu-licMhle i:i '{"cT'iilnries
(."UlS.")!') ; iinti proliihition (.■5(')St)4) ; aj)pr<)\i's jiroiiilMtoiy clauses in i,icense
Act (.'?()SC,*)-'.)) ; favoufs compensation (.'{70.")',)) ; t';i\nurs enforced iiii;li license
/■tTAc. I i: •!7n7i: s!\
(:{70(;4-(i, .•!707()-S).
IvlNCi, ihcv. JOHN H., liejrina, I'.aptist Minister
Resident one year, from .St. .lolni, N.I!. (."{(I JSO-l')
(."{(i 484-5) ; dissatisf.'iction witli ad
Payc ItlUi
ieense as had as proliihitiun
(.■5()484-5) ; dissatistaction with administration of j)ermit system (.'Ui4S."» S,
;5(i4'J(;-7; ;U).'>04-.")) ; Mounted I'olice enforced law (:U)r)12---':'{) ; license inex-
pedient, restricts tratlic, provides tor incal option (.'{(i.^Ol'-ii, .■t().");$()-4L') ; pu])u
hir sentiment fa\<)ural)le to proliihition (i5(i l'J.">-.")01 ) ; Scutt .\ct in St. .lohn,
N.r.., .satisfactory (.•!(ir);L'-4).
MuNAB, WriXTA.M, of lianfF, Tlieoloi;ical Student ..f the I'reshvterian Chur.h
I'a-e .|,>«
Prohibitionist, anti license (.'{'.K)2S-.'iO) ; drinkin;;' uniler permit; system not
enforced : Mounted Tolice hlamed (IJOO:!!-;"), .-{'.lO.i'J, .■5l)047-.')l) ; license injurinus
(:ii)03()-S) ; people want proliihition (;{!l040-()).
McLEOD, Ri;v. AN(!US J., of {{ejrina, I're.shyterian Minister I'au'e liAli
in (lovernment Indian School at l{e<;ina one and a half years, formerly at r.anlV.uid
]Medioiii(! Hat (.'UilJ.'i.'i-til) ; ajfitation at l>anffon litjuor sales .'uid smuj,'>;lin.it
(3()(ll)G-70) ; also at Medicine Hat (;{(l()7-) : Mounted Poli(;e and smu.uv'lin.i?
(3G()70) ; stri<'t, proliihition lu^cessjiry anion>,'st Indians (.'UitMl-S.'i) ; permit
preferahle to license (.'{(itiSt)) ; favours jtrohihit ion : anti compensation (.'ilKiSl- 1).
MOWAT, DANIEL. .M.L.A., of i!e.!,rina, Merchant Pa.t,'e 225
Kesident twelve years (IU.'{0(i-70) ; proliihitory law satisfactory till lieei' |)ermits
(.'i4:{7l-)S!)) ; favours permit .system, jiendinij Dominion prohibition (.'M 4(1.") 7) ;
anti comjuMisation (."il.'iSl); prohibition practical)l(! (.1 140'.)- 1 1 ) ; Lej,dslat me
refused plebiscite (:i44] l.'-l."j).
PERRY. A. ROWEN, Superintendent of North-west Mounted Police pa^'c 2«!>
Kesident ten yeai's ; jurisdiction and duties of ])olice (.'i.'iL'.'iS-ll') : prohibition i,'oo(|
at first: smiiifjrling supjiressed (.'i-'")L''JI-.'")i, ."{."iL'tlD-L') : permits fraudulently
obtained (.'i.'')l.'71 ) ; comjioji.nds used (.■>.'")2.")7) ; dillicullies of cnforcini; law
inerea.sed l)y foui' per cent lieer (.'i.">lM)7-8) : law beneficial duriiii; lailway con-
struction (.3.">L'ti3-4 ) ; i>roliibition beneticial, backed by public opinion {'M'i'27'2--'>,
3.") I'S !-■_•) : jn'oliibitory clauses of license law popular (3."rJ7(( .'^0).
POPE, J A M IvS ( '., of Rejj;ina, Chief License- Inspector, and .\ssistant .Accountant of
Noi'tli-w((st Territories Pa.ue *2H'i
Resident ten years ; formerly in charge of permit system (34I93-.")00). I)e|)iitics
enforce license law (.'Vi.")L")l !•). Prohibition impracticable, else desirable
(34.")0l', .'<4.").'>:i-.")). License popular (.'VI .■)('•■_'). Smugglini; existed under permit
law (.'Uno.'J-l 1 ). Trouble with Tndians at Princ.' Albert (34.")20 ni ). Scott
Act impracticable in Prince Edward Island (.'M.")l'3-.'{7).
lie-called. Page 242. Local oj)tion clause in licensing act useless (.'i I ()'.••") 70."i).
681
£
57 Victoria,
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
REED, HAYTER, of Regino, Indian Agent for Manitoba, Keewatin and the Nortli-
west Territories Page 233
Resident since 1883. Permit system successful at first (34.^0:5, 34327). Popular
sentiment against law ; permits loosely issued (.34307-8, 34328-it, 34342-3),
Smuggling and disorder under system (34344-r)8). License law preferable if
enforced (3431 2-15). Prohibition impracticable ; favours compensation (34316-
20). Indians and prohibition (34321-6, 34353).
RICHARDSON, Hon. HUGH, of Regina, Presiding Justice of Supreme Court of
North-west Territories Pa"e 310
Resident sixteen years (34251). Permit system satisfactory; abused latterly
(34250-61,34271-8). Liquor and crime (3427iMS).
ROYAL, Ho\. JOSEPH, Lieutenant-Governor of North-west Territories. ..Page 4«2
Statement comprising introduction, condition on ids taking office : 1. Permit law ;
2. Its results : 3. Social changes : 4. Difficulties from change of circumstances ;
5. Precautions adopted ; 6. Public opinion asserts itself: 7. Statistics.
SII5BALD, JOHN B., of Regina, Merchant Page 373
Manager Western .Milling Co., ten years (35287-8). Prohibition unsuccessful
(352i)5-6). Driidving increased under license (35297-8). Compounds used
(35300-402). Favours compensation (35296).
SMITH, JACOB W., of Regina, Hardware Merchant Page 334
Chairman License Commissioners, resident ten years (30430-40) : prohibition good
till 1S89 (30444) ; tiien permits loosely issued : liquor brougiit in ; police
relaxed vigilance (36445-50) ; license law not enforced (30451-79) ; favours
prohibition ('36458-02).
AVELSH, Ri:v. JOHN Iv., of Indian Head, Presbyterian Minister Page 3«5
Resident two years (35 1 44) ; drinking undei' 4 per cent beer less tiian under license ;
smuggling extensive (35154-5, 35160-79) ; license law not enforced (35160-01) ;
prohibition and license law inoperative (.3521 ("<- 19, 35232-37) ; licensing absurd ;
prolulntion desirable (35190-7, 35209): practicable (35220); anti compensa-
tion (35202).
WILLIAM JAMES, of Regina, Police Constable Page 243
Resident five years, formerly in ^[ounted Police (34707-9); prohibition good in
principle ; impi'actieable (34713-18, 34728-30, 34734-0, 34742-3) ; police powers
of search under prohibition (34716); difficulties of enforcement (.3 1719-25) ;
anti compensation (.34740).
WILLIA31S, RICHARD HENRY, Mayor of Regina Page 333
Resident ten years ; ex-officio Police Magistrate (30403-7, 31)414-15): presides at
police court ; hears license cases ; drunkenness increased under license (30416-
20) ; prefers prohibition, or enforced permit system, if jiracticable (304 21-29) ;
Mounted Police enforced law (.304.34).
WILLOl'GHBY, JOHN H. C, M.D., of Regina Page 32»
Resident ten years (36327-32) ; mend)er Town Council (.36.334-0) ; permit unsatisfac-
tory ; smuggling; excessive driid<ing and comjiounds used (30337-400);
authorities powerless to enforce (3()372-3 ; 36387-8) : license preferable (363-
36) : drunkenness decreased (36369-70) : fa\ours prohibition (36.387).
WIHGHT, ALFRED H., of Regina, License Inspect .r, Page 343
Resident fifteen months (36015-18) ; dilficulties of enforcing law and with witnesses
(.3()622-47) : permit system unenforced pieferable to license (36629) ; favours
prohibition : anti compensation (36630-28).
6S2
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
PRINCE ALBERT. 3rd of November, 1892.
i
BAKER, MISS LUCY M., of Prince Albeit, Teacher Pai;r aai
Missionary teacher in Presl>yterian Cliurch soiiools for Sioux Indians tliirtccn voars
(.•U)200-l ;3Gl'08 ;;U)2--'l). Difficulties with liquor under permit (L'C.-JOO-lU).
|{arity of drunkenness an»on<,'st Indians before license (."Jfl-Jl.'Mti ; .'{(L'li^J-.'Jl ).
Favours prohibition (36225-7).
BETTS, JOHN W., M.L.A., of Prince Albert, .Merchant, I'nse »! 1
Resident fifteen years (SdOO.'}-")) ; anti pei'niit ; system unsatisfactory, unpopulai-,
unenforc.'d (;5()00<)-ll ; 3r)021-;{ ; 3G0:U ; :5r)042-;5) ; favours hij,'!) IIcImisc (.SilOrj) ;
license enforceable iwtter than permit (3(i01-'{-l.j) ; license Act observed
(3G010) ; favours compensation (30024) ; national [nohibition practical)le ;-
favoured by popular sentiment (3(!044-")3).
COTTON, JOHN, of Prince Albert, Superintendent North-west Mounted P.)lice
Pa.u'c »23
llesidcnt ten years (3-")4">")-0) ; duty is to enforce permit system and prohibition to
Indians (3")4G2-G) ; smuj,'gliny under permit ; law evaded ; police obstructed j
(3r)4G8-S5 ; 3r)r»0()-4) ; injurious effect of Judi,'o Rouleau's iu(lj,niient (3.").")0S-9);
witnesses' weak memories under permit system (3o48G-',)) ; license law enforced
(35497) ; precautions to prevent Indians obtaining licpior (354l)S-9 ; 35510.)
DAVIS, THOMAS ( )., of Prince Albert, Merchant Page »a:i
Resident twelve years (.3G232-3) : prefers licen.se to permit (3G23G-,S) ; periodical
drinking under permit ; snuig^ling existed ; compounds used (.30239-44) : favours
restriction of license (.30254-5); anti prohibition ; favours compensation
(30252-3).
DONALDSON, SAM UEL .JAMES, Mayor ot Prince Albert Page 274
Resident since 18H7 (.35305) ; permit system satisfactory at tirst ; abused finally
(35.313-12) : ])ermits unlawfully use<l (.35.317-18) ; license increases diinkini: in
i-ural districts (35,343-4) : law well observe<l (.35.34(i-50) ; anti com|iensation
(35338).
GUN, WILLLVM. of Prince Alb.'rt, Advocate, Page :t2«
In Territories twelve years (3(')30()-l ) ; i)erniit system abused ('iii.'iO I) ; smuggling
extensive (.30305-9 ; 3G319) : law generally disregarded (30.324) ; favours univer-
sal prohibit if m ; impracticable (.30.3 10-1 2) ; anti compensation ; licisnse prefrrablo
to permit . reduce(l drunkenness (.30.31 4-1 5).
HERCHMER, LAWHENCH WILLI A>,, Conmiissiotier .if Nortii west Mounted
Polic Pag:' 2H7
Resident thirty years ; formerly )ii Indian Department (.3551 1 : ."i552l-2) : Mounted
Police and snniggling (.35520) • difHculties in I'estraining Indians fixmi lic|uoi'
uiuler prohibition (35523 : 3.!>500) ; law evaded to obtain lii|Uor (.35527-32 ;
.35582-5) : methods of smuggling (3553.3-42 : 35580-7) : illicit distilleries acti\e
(.355.39-42) ; permit system (lefecti\e ; local Governor not the man to grant
them (35551-4; .3557-3-80); license system preferable, violated (3555.3-5 ;
35508) ; favours one entrance only to hotels (35557-01) ; increase of dritd<ing
amongst lower classes under license (35002-4) ; police vigilant, unaided liy
temperance people (35571) ; public opinion anti prohibition (35590-1).
683
57 Victoj'ia.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
MACLTSK, WILLI A:M VALLEAL', of Prince Albert, Advocate Page 308
Resident elev'.ii years (35952-6) ; drinkin<,' decre.ased (.'{5995-01) ; licenses loosely
issued (35971) : law imperfect (359714, 3597H-S-2); permit system effectually
pn.liihited Indians (35983) : favours compensation (359G(J 9).
MacGUIRE. Hon. TI10:MAS HORACE, of Prince Albert, Judge of Supreme Court
of X. W.T ' Page 277
Resident three years (35361) ; license satisfactory (35370, 35108-10) ; permit system
good at first ; loose latterly (35475-6) ; ditttculties from Judge Houleau's judg-
ment (35377) ; law not enfcjrced injui'ious, es])eeially regarding perjury ;
witnesses unreliable (35389-',)0, 35418-26); favours absolute prohibition, next
license (35395, 35412, 35453-56): prohibitirm not enforced in Maine (35645-6) ;
crime and licpior (353S5, 35399, 35401-2) ; permit system injured Ijy 4 per
cent beer (35403-7); illicit selling previous to license (35413-14) ; legalizeil
trade dangerous (35428) ; license popular (35429).
McKAY, Vkn Ahcii deacon, of Prince All)ert Page 317
Native (36414-15) ; permit system protected Indians (36116) ; enforcement of pro-
hibitory law dependent on pui>lic si-ntiment (36125, 36129, 361.31); drinking
on Indians reserves under license (.36117-18): drunkenness increased under
license (36119) : pi-ohibition dasirable if enforced for nation, but very ditlicult
of enforcement (36123-25, 36132-33) ; anti general compensation (36135).
McKAY, THO.MAS, M.L.A., of Prince Albert, Farmer Page 314
Native (:i()()56-58) ; abstilute prohibition in early days ('36059-63) ; liquor inti'oduced
after Confederation (•■)6068-70) : permit system imperfect, not enforced
(36071-6); License Act satisfactory (36079) ; favours compensation (36081-2).
IMcTAGGART, JOHN, of Prince Albert, Dominion Land Agent Page 321
Resident eight years (36257-60) : permit system unsatisfactory ; administration lax ;
permits loosely issued (36262-.3, 36279-83) ; licensing wrong (3(5267-8) ;
increased drunkenness (.36265, .36297) ; license or ))rohibition no issue at
electi(>n (.36285-9, -36298-9) : favours prohibition ;anti compensation (.3(')266-71).
NORMAN FRANCIS, of Prince Albert, Insj.ector North-west Mounted Police
Page 292
Resident nineteen years (.35607) ; li(|Uor for sickness only in 1877 (35609); corro-
borates Col. Herchmer and Supt. Cotton (35611-12); modes of smuggling
(3561.3-20); little licjuor on Canadian Pacific liailway construction (35685);
license reduced illicit selling (.356.37, .35639-41); licensees best detectives
(35642-6) ; Scott Act failure in St. Thomas and Yorkville, Ont. (35662-90).
REED, JOHN L., of Prince Albert, Dominion Land Surveyor Page 300
Chairman of License Connnissioners, resident twenty-one years (35783-86) ; Scott
Act failurv in Durham County, Ont. (35789-94, 35866-7) ; license preferable to
permit (35794) ; extensive smuggling, compounds used (35797-802) ; national
prohiliition impracticable, favfiui's compensation (35><03-5, 35823-7, 35841-2);
license law enforccil by ^lounted Police (3581 7-22) ; favours asylums for persist-
ent drunks (35850-56).
ROBERTSON, PETER, of Prince Albert, Chief Constable ami License Inspector.
Page 2»8
Resident nine years (35725-7) ; has to enforce law (3573x-5) ; law well observed,
drunkards mostly Half-breeds, license preferable to permit (35736-41) : less
drinking than under permit (35371-3) ; recalled, page 319; presents statistics
of arrests (36136-8).
684
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
ROCHRSTER, Ukv. W. M., of Prince Albert, Presbyterian Minister Page 30-i
Resident two years (35,^09) ; Hcott Aot in Carleton County, in Stormont and
Cornwall a failure (35874-80) ; beneficial (;\')920) ; bmuglit into contempt and
repealed (SoOoO-o.'i) ; anti license (35888-9); drunkenness increased under
license (35885-6 ; 35921 ; 35927-8 : 25930) ; prohibition or license no factor ia
last election (35925-0 ; 35937 ; 35947-8) ; favours prohibition ; practicable
(35890-9) ; anti compensation (35900-7).
STULL, JAMES P. A., Prince Albert, Clerk of Municipality Page :|16
Resident since 1885 (30083-7) ; permit system a failure ; license worse ; nuire
drinking (30990-97) ; city receives license! fees (30098) ; anti license ; favours
prohibition ; anti compensation (30104-10).
"\VE8TWOOL), ANDREW, of Prince Albert, Hotel Clerk. . . Page »!»
Resident eightet^n years : formerly in North-west Mounted Police (.3()l40-4) : per-
mits at first issued by police otHcers (30145-51) ; suniggling in all siiapes for
white men and Indians (30152-0) ; police endeavoured to enforce law (.')0180) ;
licen.se system observed (30180; 30197-9); drunkenness less, more observ-
able (30181-4).
O ALGARY, 7th of NOVEMBER, 1892.
CAYLEY, Hon. HUUH ST. QUENTTN, M. L. A„ of Calgary, Chairman Ivxecutive
Committee Page *2iili
Resident since 1884 (34567) ; No license at first ; police endeavoured to t>nforce
prohibition ; exceptional powers ineffectual (34571-4 ; 3458>^) ; permit law not
ob.served (34590-009) ; people demanded liicase (3457()-i)) : permits gi\en l)y
favour (34597-002) ; absolute prohibition necessary (34010-11); violated law
demoralizing (34016).
COSTICAN, JOHN R., of Calgary, Barrister Page 398
Crown Prosecutor for District of Alberta, resident since 188.3 (37S1.'{-15) ; license
preferable to permit (37810) : permit difficult to enforce ; pojiular .sentiment
opposed ; smuggling rife : majority of li([uor 'lliciily procured ; permits fraudu-
lently I'e-used ; 4 per cent beer meant whisky (34818-31); witnesses" forget-
fulness in liquor cases (36833-7) ; prohibition beneficial : impracticable ; in-
advisable ; involves compensation (37832-40; 37850-7); lioteLs preferable to
saloims (37841-5).
CUTHBERT, A. ROSS, of Calgary, Inspector of North-west ilounted l\)lice
Page';W5
Resident since 1885 (37509-72); Mounted Police had to enforce permit, tried to in
face of many difficulties. Much smuggling and many seizuies, small percentage
seized. Permits misus id. Witnesses hard to procure uo offence to lie; com-
pounds used and illicit distilling (37573-90, 37597-000) . ci.nteen arrangements
(37609-16); temptations to police constables (37017-24, 3V{j.")0-l); impossible
to enforce prohibition without popular support. Prohibitory clauses of Ileuses
not carried out (37591-6) ; saloon licen.ses under permit difficult to manage
(37625 30, 37647-9); permits ante-dated and handed round (37031-41) ; four [/er
cent b3er increased smuggling (37641-6.)
Recalled page 397.
Difficulties of convicting for selling under permit (37806) ; convictions of
Indians and Half-breeds for having liquor (37808-12).
685
57 Victoria.
CuTHBEhT, A. Ross-
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
-(Jontinu<:d.
A. 1894
Kc-callcd page 402.
Applications for permits referred to ])olice officers (.'IGDOD-l 1.)
Suppioiiientary statement in re possible bribery of members of police force, and
attempts tliereat : convictions for "selling'' vn. convictions for -'having in
j)Ossession." liesults of establishing iioliee canteens ('M\)l'2).
DTCIv, FRANK, of Calgary, License Inspector Page ii74.
Formerly in lumber trade, resident in Calgary about three years, first Inspector
under license (37."{."5'J-4.'{) ; Inspector's (luties {'M'Mu 71); performed iiis duties
honestly and faithfully, recommends front bars and no curtains {lil'.il't-') ;
license system preferable to permit (37344) ; more plnces selling li<|Uor in 18)S4
than now (37348-53) ; illicit sales still going on (3737-) ; sale became general
about two years before license (37354) ; prohibition could be enforced if proper
methods were adopted (3735G-7) ; ^founted Police not light men to enforce pro-
hibition (37358-08).
DOWLINCl, THOMAS, of Calgaiy, Collector of Inland Kevenue Pag.- HHH.
Joined police foi'ce in 1878 (37174-81) ; permit system diligently enforced in face
of (litliculties : smuggling and illicit stills put down : police powers of search
(37 182-90, .37205-7, 37213-7); prohibition enforced during railway construc-
tion (37208-12) ; less drinking under license (.37218-2t),)
ENGLISH, THO:\[ AS, of Calgary, Chief of Police Page 370
Chief of Police 22 months, came from Winnipeg, nothing to do with enforcement
of license law (37227-35, 37257, 372G5) : license works better than permit :
liquor sold openly under pei'mit (37230-45, 3720t)-7I, 37272-80); more liquor
drank now ; wants front bar.s with uncurtained windows (37240-50) ; sales
after hours going on (37259-00) ; Mounted Police only look after Indians
(37252-3)
HODDER, EDWARD, of Calgary '. Page 37«
Retired Merchant, resident six years (37385) ; favours license (37390) ; less drunk-
enness (37414-6) : liquor trade bad for community (37444-54) ; permit system
not pi'ohibitive ; rioting and disorderly conduct ; licjuor sold in more places
than under license (37417-23, 37398-400); permits loosely given (37463-70) ;
smuggling carried on (37400-8) ; compounds sold (37401-2) ; opposed to pro-
hibition ; could not enforce it (37409-12, 37485-90); limitations under license
do not interfere with liberty of subject (37424-33, 37454-9) ; favours com-
pensation (37413.)
LUCAS, ALEXANDER, of Calgary, Financial and lieal Estate Agent. . .Page 363
Mayor of Calgary, resident in Calgary since 1886 (37052-()0) ; Scott Act in 1880,
in force in Lambton ; sub.sequently repealed (37001-0) ; prohibition in North-
west from 1886-88 unsatisfactory ; liquor obtainable (37007-75, 37087) ; after
1888 till license, saloons ran openly (37076-80); Mounted Police did their duty
(37101-5,37135); smuggling largely carried on (37145-7); permits handed
round (37170-3) ; more drunkenness under license (37082-4, 37100-18, 37140-2) ;
license law satisfactory, bars should be uncurtained during prohibited hours
(37090-3) ; more liquor places before than under license (37099-100) ; pro.secu-
tiona under license law (37122-3); prohibition no good, permits issued too
freely, .smuggling went on, stubs of exhausted permits used, liquor sold under
permit (37125-33, 37138-9, 37143-4, 37148-55, 37163-9) ; Dominion prohibition
might be enforced (37097-8) ; but doubtful (37134-6) ; prohibition not popular
(37156-7.;
686
f
li
i
Index and Alully^sis of Evidence.
MARSH, (iKOUGK, ..f Cd^arv, Reiil Kstatc Ajjoiit . Pu^'o 404
Ki'sideut siiu'o 188.'$: niihviiy aj^cnt foi- Caiiiuliiiii Piicitic Uiiilway from Wnlsclfv
to Calj^iuy, noU miles; came from the L'nitctl Statt's (.'ir'.U.'l^) ; prot'iTs
li<'t'Mse to |n'rmit (.'I'D'JO-'J) : (li'iiikiii<,r ul>out saiiin iiii<ler hotli systems : smui;-
;^liii;; under |)crmit : some lii|U()i' seized, more ^'ot tlirou<j;li, compound li<|Uors
larj{ely used (.'{TDliO .'i'J, .'tT'.Ml.'i-To) ; favours proliil)ition that will prohibit,
impracticahle (.'$7'.l K)-(i, 37!*8.").i)0) ; favours eompeiisation (.'57947): wciuid
I'emove all i't>strictions on tratlie hut hi;,di license : advocates •' j^old cure for
habitual inebriates as part of system (.'$7'J."i--.'5, .■i7H-'i.")-7) ; would imprison
licensees sellinj; to minors (.'{7!'-")l, .■$7il6l ) : li(|Uor obtainable day and ni;;lit
under license (.■$7!M)2-8) ; police vii^ilant ; some xcnal, bribery active, attempt
at prohibition farcical (;57!)7t')-7, .■17i)'.t2, .'1801-) ; pi'ohibition breeds criminals
(.•i80i:M).
NOLAN, PATlirCK J., Jh., of Calvary, iJarristor Pa,i,'e -lOM
Hosident in Territoiies three years (."JSOlo) : prefers license to permit; decrease in
crime and drinking under licensi^ (;{8017-l.'0, .'^SO-').'!) ; illicit selling under ])ernnt,
licenses foi' t(;mperance drinks used foi' li(]Uor trallic, blackmailing ciiri'ied
on (.■$8020-"), 380-J!l--b"), :$80H)-r).')) ; would compensate foi' plant ( .'iSOL'!)) :
wholesale and retail [)laces should ha\e some degi'ee of I'estrictioii
(;$8027-8).
ROLTLEAU, Ho\. CHARLES 15., of Calgary, Justice of the Supreine Court of the
North-west Territories " Page ilHii
Came to Calgary in 188") ; in Territories nine years (.■$74!)l-.'5) ; licenst! works
tolerably well (371il5) : system preferable ; regulates and restricts ti'allic
(;$7o.")l) ; saloon licenses under ]ierniit only allowed temperance <lrinks : prose-
cutions for having licpioi' in possession (.'$7.") l."$-.")0) ; permit well obsei'ved at
first : illicit importatiijii grew (.'J741MJ, .'57.").30-42) ; illicit sales before license
(37-")U7-l 1) ; his tlecision that li(|uor brought in under permit was co\ered by
permit even if in ])0.ssession of othei- than holder of permit (;!7.">01-t). 37")-'l-2,
37.")2'J-32, 37.~)oG-7); Mounted Police honestly tried to enforce prohibition
(37514-9): permit system class pi-ohibition (.375.")3-.")) ; advocates " gold cure "
for persistent inebriates (37.")12-3, 37-")o8-9) ; violated law has evil eH'ects :
prohibitor}' law unjiopular (37520); prohibition gf>od : cannot be enforced;
those in trade should receive compensation (.37523) ; would encourage use
of light wines (37525-6, .37501-5, 375()7-8) ; prohibition failed in X'ermoiit
(37528) ; serious crimes not attributable to licpior (3756<i).
SIFTON, AliTHUR, of Calgary, Barrister Page »ttO
Town Solicitor, resident since 1885 in Territories (37G53-()I). License hiw defec-
tive, amendments wanted, restaurants unnecessary : hotel bars more hai'mful
than saloons, both objectionable (37G()2-75). Prohibition desirable and
practicable; rural sentiment strongly prohibition (37t>7()-704, 377<)8-70).
Prohibition oi- license not question at election (.37705-15, 3775()-t'>4, .i77ilG-805).
Favours partial compensation (37716-8). Drunkenness increased under
license (3771i'-31.) License law enforced ; difficulty of proving violations
(.3773.3-40). -Mounted Police and prohibitory law, otticers drank ; liipior cir-
culated under permit (37744-9). Prohibition in Pasadena, nm. IJiverside
successful (37771-95).
WALKER, JAMES, of Calgary, Lumber Merchant Page 373
Chairman of License Commissioners, re.sident in Calgary twelve years ; !\[ounted
Policeman in 1872 (37281-6, 37314-20). Mounted Police duties with Indians
in early days ; Hudson Bay Company sold to Indians or anybody ; not much
smuggling (37287-311). More liijuor used now (37333-4). Four per cent beer
made permit dead letter : all sorts of liquor sold (37331-2). Prohibition
enforced would be good, illicit sale chief ditHculty (37335-8).
687
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
WILLIAMS, MIMON, of Cileielu-n, Fiihikt ¥,x^o 400
Uosident in Territories ten years; nt-arcst iifijjlilMiur siiuiyj^ier bcioif license;
ititormatii)nliii(l, no conviction ; 4 per cent Immt ditl not affect liini ('Mfi*\\-'J04).
Scntiincnt of community, proliil)ition ; could be enforced (37'J(J.J-U). Favours
compt-nsation (."$7907).
FORT MACLEOD, 9th of NOVEMBER, 1892.
ALLEN, WILLIA.M C«>X, M.D., of Fort Macleod, Collector of Customsand of Inland
Kevenue l'ay;c 411
Resident six years (38056). Li(|uor passed under license (.'l80.">8-r>2). Kxtcnsive
snnifijjtlin",' under permit (.'JSOfi.'J-H, 3807H-80). Mounted Police t'liitlifil'v
vigilant (38069-70, 38081). Prohibition impracticable (38071, 3,S080-6) ;
desirable if practicable (.3808")) ; license preferable to permit (.3807.-4) ; per-
mit system no prohibition (38082-3) ; anti compensation (3f<07-'5).
EVAX8, R015KRT, of Fort Macleod, Veterinary Surgeon Page 415.
Revenue inspector, resident three years (38L38-40); prefers license to {>eiinit
(38144, 381")6) ; present law violated (38167-70) : DiHlculties under permit;
people indifferent, witnesses would tell nothing ; snuiggling cai'ried on
(3814r)-.")0, 38l.'3y-63) ; saloons before license (38171-77); prohibition imprac-
ticable (.38ir)2-4, 381.^8) ; favours compensation ('i8 1. ").")) ; prohil)itiim if piac-
ticable desirable (381.')7) ; Scott Act in Sinicoe and Dufl'erin (38164) ; license
satisfactory in lioulton, Ont. (38165-6).
GAVIN, Rev. HAMILTON, of Fort iMacleod Page 4SO
Presbyterian minister, resident one year (38247-50) ; liciuor openly sold before license
(38251-8 ; 38267) ; Scott Act beneiicial in Colchester, well enforced (3825i)-(')l ;
38268-69) ; favours prohibition, licensing wrong, againstc()mpensation(382()2-4).
HILTON, Rev. DONALD, of Fort Macleod, Clerk in Holy Onlers Page 413
Church of England, resident fourteen years (38089-91) ; prefers license to permit
(38092); immigrants not opposed to prohibition (38095-8) ; favours prohibi-
tion if i)racticable (38099-38100, 38106-7, 38115-6); illicit importation and
open sale under permit (38093, 38102-5); «!vil effects of liipioi' (38108-13) ;
moderate, introductory to excessive, drinking (38114); danger of liquor to
Indians (38117-9).
HOLLIES, .lOHN, of Fort Macleod, Hotel-keeper Page 422
Resident in Ontario seventeen years, at Macleod four years (38270-2) ; prohibition in
force, li(|Uor obtained from traders ; smuggling increased with white population ;
open sale before license (38270-307); police endeavoured to perform duties,
lacked popular support ; law considered unjust : diHlcult country to guard
(38309-29) ; probil)ition impracticable (38308, 38371 2) ; not an election issue
(38330-3) ; trade under license ; less drinking : law observed (38334-68) ;
excessive drinking unchecked by law (38369-70) ; license popular (38375-9) ;
hotels depend on liquor for profit (38393-406).
KENNEDY, GEORGE ALLAN, M.D., of Fort Macleod Page 41»
Resident fourteen years, fonnerly surgeon to police at different posts (38226-8) ;
prefers license to permit (38230) ; permit never propei'ly enforced ; occasional
hardships ; liquor for medicine frequently unobtainable ; smuggling (38231-7 ;
38242-6); more drunkenness under license (3,s238-39); fewer engaged in
traffic (38240-1) ; favours compensation (38243-4).
688
A. 1894
■ P'lKo 400
li'iovo liceiisp ;
n(.t7H<;t-!»04).
'■•)). Kiivours
uhI of ftiland
•■•l'a«''4ll
). Kxtcrisivo
lifi- t'.iitlifiJ'v
.'{.S0,S(j-6) ;
1SU7l'-1); per-
Pa-t" 415.
•s(> t(i poiniit
iiider poniiit ;
fiifrifd OH
•itioii iiiiprjie-
)ilioii if prac-
IGJ) ; licfii&i-
• ' ' Index and Analynis of Evidence.
MacLeod, Hov. JAMES FAHQUHAHSON.of Fort Miicleod, .Justice of Suprf-mn
Court of Nortii-wost T(!rritorieH P'W 4111
Uf!si(iont sinco 1S74 ; in I'omiiiiiiKl of Mouiitctl Police at Cyjircss Hills from lH7ti-
IHS!). ( )ii hciicii ti\i yiMirM ; as Assistant Ooniinissioii(>r tirst otlii-or with force
(■■{H)7H 38lM(i) ; jiolicc churned with cnforciii;^ prohihition ; ha<i been consid-
cralilc drinking anion^' Indians; first idea to suppress that : afterwards snui^-
j,'liii;; hcj^an ; dillicult to suppress (^HlHti-l)")) ; cases lieforehiin as .hidfje reveal
difUculties of ohtainin;; evidence for prosecutions, and much pi'rjury (.'iHllXi-D,
'M'207, .'S8l'11-5) ; li(|Uoi and crime f'.'iH-JK); license preferalile to permit
(;iH20U-l); bad effect of violated law (.'{8207); permit system really lictMise,
smu;,';^linjf under it (.'{HiJO'J-r)) ; objects to principle of ])rohibitiiin, would re-
(juire very larf,'e majority of supporttu's to justify such enactment (.'W^OH-I'i) ;
with small majority illicit traders would carry prohibition for own ends
(38l'19-l'-0.
PAT HICK, VV. H., of Fort Macleod, Rancher Page 42M
Resident sixteen years, came from Manitoba, rancher and fanner (.'{8407-14) ; no
law at first ; prohibition and ^lounted Polict^ came togethei' ; police honestly
endeavoured to enforce law, smuggling existed ; police hamjiered by extent of
country ; popular sentiment against law (."58415-44) ; prohibition in Territories
impracticable ; license preferable (3844.'3-!)) ; licjuor selling to Indians (.384"iO-8).
WRIGLEY, JOSEPH H., of Fort Macleml, Advocate Page 414
Resident in Territories two years (38120-4) ; license preferable to permit (3812.")) ;
smuggling under permit, compounds used (38126-7, 38130-1); prohibition im-
practicable, opposed to principle (38128-9, 38133-7).
■ Page 4aO
befoi'e license
d (382.J!)-<;i ;
ion(382(iL'-4).
■ • Page 4ia
use to permit
ours pi'ohibi-
ortation and
(••58108-13);
' of liquor to
•Page 482
rohibition in
population ;
f<jrni duties,
ry to guard
lection issue
(38334-68) ;
f (38375-9) ;
• Page41»
(38226-8);
; occasional
g (38231-7 ;
engaged in
BANFF, 12th NOVEMBER, 1892.
BRETT, JAMES, of Ranff Page 44H
Formerly of Winnipeg, resident thr(>(^ years (.'58829-32) ; permit system injurious,
smuggling rife, compounds used (3SM43-G, 38831-2) ; license system worse than
in Ontario (j884 1-2) ; prohibitionist, opposed to license principle (38836-40,
38847-49).
BRETT, ROBERT GEOlKiE, M.D., of lianff. Page 451
Member of Legislative Assembly for Banff, resident since 1884 ; Chic^f surgeon of
C.P.R. during construction (38887-94) ; smug;,'itig under permit ; Mounted
Police endeavoured to suppress it (38893-908, 389();5-4, 39014) ; peiiiiit placed
recon)mendiiig repi'esentatives in wrong position (38914-5, 389'il-3) ; permit
unpopular (38932-3); license preferable to permit (38909,38960-81); less
drinking under license (38981-2) ; law popular, capable of enforcement (38910-
13, 38916-7, 38974-7); capable of amendment (3890")); sales under permits
(38944-6, 39010-13) ; fees for permits went to Terrritorial Revenue (38947-9) ;
permit or license not an election issue (38949-53, 38978-90, 38995-39009) ;
governor acted on popular feeling (38954-9) : favours national prohibition
(38918-31) ; would require large majority to be practicable (389.'53-8) ; favours
compensation (38939-40) ; sanitarium special license (38988-93) ; Rocky Moun-
tain Park requires special legislation (39015-24).
689
21—44**
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
CONNORS, THOMAS, of BanfiF, Wholesale Liquor Merchant Page 444
Resident six years (38714-7) ; license preferaUe to permit (38718-9); sniugf^ling
and illicit trade under permit (38720-6, 38736-48, ;i8763-9, 38773-7, 38825-7);
compounds used (38778-92) ; police did their duty (38773); four per cent
beer covered evorytiiing (38793-6) ; sales under poimits for meflicinal purposes,
stul)s use-" ;38798-808) ; prohibition impracticable (38734-5, 38797) ; opposed
to principle (38819) ; people would have liquor (38767-70); license law ob-
served (38750-66, 3<i820-4) ; less drinking (38771-2); sells less under license
(38809-18).
FERGUSON, JOHN JAMES, of Banff, Hardware Merchant Page 44»
Resident five years (38850-2) ; prohiliitionist ; opposed to license on principle
(38855-61,38868,38872-5, 38882-5); anti compensation (38870-1); preser;
licensees formerly illicit traders (38862-3) ; lic(!nKe law indicates public senti-
ment (38880-1) ; more drunkenness under permit (38865); temperance in-
fluence beneficial (38867, 38876-79).
HARPER, FRANK, of Banff, Inspector of North-west Mounted Police. .. Page 430
Resident thirteen years (38459-61) ; police faithfully tried to enforce prohibition,
popular sentiment inimical ; smuggling extensive, seizures frecjuent, compounds
used, domiciliary visits (38463-86, 38572-4) ; permit system worked badly,
difficult to secure conviction, perjury counnoii, law unpopular ; effects of
law evil (38488-95, 38509-24, 38540-2, 35558-70); four per cent beer increased
difficulties (38543-4) ; prohibition good if practicable (38496) ; immigrants
prefer license (38497-9) ; license law excellent, lacks enforcing; main features
observed ; drinking increased (38500-8, 38522-39, 38545-8).
STEWART, GEORGE A., of Banff, Superintendent of Rocky Mountain Park,
Page 436
Resident twelve years, magistrate, (38575-85) ; smuggling and noting before
licensb (38586-98) ; disgusted with permit, license worse (38600:2) ;park under
special Act, cases under it (38603-20) ; permits too freely issued, liquor sold,
law practicable and desirable in park ; 4 per cent beer iticreased drunkenness
(38621-9 ; 38634-42); more liquor under license (38o30-l); prohibition im-
practicable, license practicable, not enforced (38635-40).
WHITE, D.VVID, of Banff, Section Foreman of Canadian Pacific Railway .. Page 440
In Banff three years, (38643-5) ; smuggling fnmi British Columbia on trains,
methods employed (."'8646-56, 38661-3, 38677a-84) ; jirohibitionist ; license law
sinful (38657.60); hquor detrimental to labour (38662-77, 38685-713).
'.%
VICTORIA, 17tli and 18th of NOVEMBER, 1892.
BEAVEN, ROBERT, May. r of Victoria Page 469
Member for city in Provincial Legislature ; resident in British Columbia thirty
years, in Victoria since 1886, (39057-61) ; license law in force all along (39062) ;
people sol icr and law-abiding (39070) ; member of licensing court (38073-7);
lijw constituted (39141-2); old li(|Uor licenses (39083-5) ; retail, bottle and
wliolesale licenses, income therefrom (390S5-1U7, 31li(;2); number less.^ned
(3916()-70) ; difficult U> obtain licenses, mode of jjroccdure, restrictions, billiard
licenses (39108-22, 39171-5); Chinese weaknesses, opium and gambling
(39132-5); old and new license laws compared (39143-57, 39176) ; law observed
(39160-1); jjrohibition difficult to enforce (39177-181).
Index and Analysis of Evidence. * ""■
BEGBIE, SIR MATTHEW BATLLIE, of Victoria Pago 4«4
Chief Justice of Supreme Court of British Columbia, twenty years, previously Judge
on Mainland (3000912); pestered with whisky in North-west in ISH'), under
prohibition whi>^kv bad but plentiful ; Mounted Poliie had it ; Indians must
be prohibited (;}90i-t-27, 39()54-72, 39723-")) ; prohibition impracticable tlieie
(39631) ; liquor in Alaska (39G27-30) ; infringed laws injurious (391)3 1, 39t;(;0);
Population in Constantinople and .Stamboul uiuIim' religious [)r(jiiibition,
dangerous t.nd criminal at night (39()3G, aho iM'i-, pai/r •")02, 3!l(lS(i-y) ; l.ritish
Columbia law-abidijig (39G3G) ; favours compensation (39G37-9) ; drinking
less than formerly, still excessive in some cases (39Gl.")-")3) ; men who drink
superior, intellectually, morally, physically (39G90-1, 3972G-33, n/m ':'ftrr pago
502) ; restriction on trartic wise (39695-707) ; license regulates tratlic (3971-1-
21) ; anti prohibition (39710-1, 39722).
BELYEA, ARTHUR L., of Victoria, Barrister-at-Law Page 543
Resident four years, formerly of Fredericton, N.B. (40515-8) ; formei'ly P )lice
Magistrate (405G2) ; Inspector for County of York under McCarthy Act,
clashes with Scott Act, latter not enforced ; public sentimtnt weak, law
violated ; litigation blameable (40549-GO) ; license enforced fairly, few vio-
lations, law harmonizes with public opinion (405(')1-GC) ; prohibition ptefcM-able,
impracticable, owing to present condition of public sentiment (405G7-81).
CAMPLELL, Rkv. JOHN, of Victoria Page 5.17
Presbyterian Minister, resident live months, formerly of CoUingwood, Simcoe
County, Ontario (40458-GO) ; anti liquor traffic ; licensing wrong ; injures com-
munity ; partaking of li(iuor wrong (40407-7' 40514-17); prnhibiliunist sys-
tem practicable ; fa voui'able sentiment growing : anti compensation (40472-5,
40482-3, 40503-10, 40518-21) ; Scott Act in Simcoe andWdlington disap-
pointing in operation (4047G-81, 40511-13); better on return of license
(40490) ; license preferable to untrannnelled traffic (40497-8) ; prohibitary law
requires support of public sentiment (404i'8-502).
CHOQUETTE, ALEXANDER, of Fort Wrang-H Alaska, U.S. A Page 53»
Trader, resident in ¥ort Wrangell .f;\-e years, foi'meily of I'ritish Columbia and
California (40224-9) ; prohiijiiion in Alaska dead letter, liquoi' openly sold,
given to Indians ; United State.' marshal's efforts to suppress traffic ; Indians
distill liquor, smuggling (40230 98).
COOMBES, Rkv. J. E., of Victoria Page 547
Baptist Minister in British Columbia two weeks ; from Tacoma, Washington Ter-
ritory (40G3G-39) ; local option at Upper Alton, III., lighting " same old devil
over and over again;'' one town can "jug" a county: "bunches" re\'einie,
not expense (40G42-4) ; license in Washingtm State on side of liquor men,
give.s monopoly to (U'l)aueh people (40l')4G-51) ; ])!•(. hibition desirable; practi-
cable ; succes.sful in INlaine and Kansas ; though \ iolations occur (4UG55-73,
40678-93) ; anti compensation (40674-77).
DAVIES, JOSHTA, of Victoria, Auctioneer and Conniiission IMeri'h.mt. . .Page -^jOO
Resident since 1860, came fi'om California (.398G0-1 ) ; license fairly .satisfactoiy,
advocates open sale, and high license, and inspection (.■i9S77, 39886-912) ;
opposed to prohibition on principle, inqiractica-blc, would induce snmggling,
expensive to enforce (39881-5, 39914-20).
DELLSMITH, C, of Victoria, Journalist Page 55 >
Resident two years, connected with r.'(»^(*»i','!/' (4069 1-5) ; Sunday c'osing itiduces
drinking, creates sneaks ; failui-e in Toronto; night trade (10702-5); fivours
license; law prohibiting sale to druidcards violated (li)70G-ll;; prohibition
wouhl be impracticable ; would promote snmggling : anti comiiensation
(40712-6, 40720-6).
691
67 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
DOWLER, WELLINGTON J., of Victoria, Clerk of the Municipal Council
Page 470
Resident twelve years, Clerk of Police Court (39182-5, 39207) ; clerk of licensing
court (39187) ; sales to Indians, witrRsses' wretched memories ; Chinese law
breakers, drunkards numerous (39189-95); advocates asylums for habitual
inebriates (39196-7, 39218); prohibition difficult to enforce, would be in-
jurious (39200, 39225-8); more drunkenness than Toronto (39201-2) ; sailor
offenders (39203-5) ; large proportion of charges due to liquor (39208-17) ;
drunkenness and population increasing (39219-22).
HALL, ERNEST, M.D., of Victoria Page 506
Resident two years, (39792-3) ; Scott Act in Halton lessened drinking, beneficial,
repealed (39797-801, 39815-9) ; prohibition desirable, practicable, economical;
anti compensation (39802-8, 39830, 39850-8) ; license law not enforced, illicit
sale, spasmodic efforts at enforcement, houses of ill-fame sell (39809- 1-1, 39845-9,
39854) ; abstainers best men, moderate drinking decidedly injurious (39820-6,
39831-44) ; danger of hereditary idiocy (30827-9).
HALL, LEWIS, of Victoria, Dentist Page 544
Resident since 1886; Grand Secretary Independent Order of Good Templars; prohi-
bitionist (40582, 40590, 40600) ; litjuor poison ; should be guarded as poison ;
and license (40580, 40591-3) ; Scott act successful inOakville, Halton County,
Ontario, in 1889 (40594-6^ ; anti compensation (40598) ; strong prohibition
sentiment in British Columbia (40599) ; money spent in liquor if spent in
other direction beneficial ; crime, disorder and all unlawfulness arising from
liquor ; and majorit}' of deaths (40602,40611); prohibition practicable with
proper officers and provisions (40612-40635).
HALL, ROBERT H., M.P.P., of Victoria, Page 480
Resident twenty years ; lived at Fort Simpson, Fort St. Thomas, Fort St. George,
Vancouver, €and been in Alaska; manager for Hudson Bay Company ; Com-
pany holds wholesale license (39478-94J ; no license, but li(iuor at Fort Simp-
son, floatiiig population, fishermen and Indians, whites and Indians drink ;
Company had license but withdrew it ; more drinking .after ; licjuor smuggled
(39497-500, 39533-8) ; prohibition in Alaska complete failure ; drinking at
Juneau and Sitka, snmggled liquor openly sold. Indians ma'mfacture liquor
(39501-19, 39539-47, 39573-602) ; impracticable law weakens justice (39553-4);
prohibition in British Columbia impracticable (.39520-1, .39558-62); favours
compensation (39522) ; law observed in Victoria (39495-6, 39523-32).
HOUGHTON, THOMAS, of Victoria, Dry Goods ^Merchant, Page .HO
Resident sixteen years (40065-7) ; favours prohibition, opposed to license, but better
than untr.'immelled sale ; favours compensation (40076-40093) ; temperance
people pay best (40094-9).
HUMBER, MORRIS, of Victoria, Builder and Contractor Page 485
Resident thirty years, member City Cf)uncil, Chairman Police Committee (3'.I394-
400); liquor and labcur, respectable drinkers, little drunkenness (39402-26,
39450-7); license law broken, illicit trading (39433-9); favours high license
(39440-1, 39445-8, 39458-9) ; prohibition beneficial (39427-9, ;;9449) , favours
compensation (39472-7); fre(juenters of low dives (39442-4).
LANGLEY, JOHN M., of Victoria Page 534
Sergeant of Government Police for Province since 1889, born in Province (40365-8) ;
police duties, enforce criminal and li(|uor laws, detective force (40369-78) ;
license law works well, bona fide traveller causes trouble, convictions quashed,
favours license system, illicit stills (40380-95, 40399 404); drinking amongst
Indians; they make liquor (40405-8) ; anti prohibition impracticable (40396-8).
692
Index and Analysis of E]vidence.
»»4
-8);
'8);
led,
-St
P-8).
McCRAE, FARQUHAR, of Victoria, Police Magistrate Page 481
Resident fourteen months, magistrate six months, lianistor, came from New Zealand
(39326-30) ; Ucense in New Zealand, distilleries suppressed, compensation
given, beer drank, temperance growing, crinii' attributahle to liquor, tendency
to restrict tratfic (39:331-2, 39352, .•i93o8-8(5, 39392-3) ; hears charges and
summary trials (39333-5); drunkenness, cases ilue to drink, Indian inehi'iates
(39342-51); opposes all night selling (39352-3) ; athocates inebi'iate asylums
(39354-5); favours compensation (39387-91).
McMillan, JAMES E., of victoria, High Sheriff of the County of Victoria
Page 505
Sheriff eight years (39762) ; license law well observed (39767-72) : prohibition desir-
able, practicable (39773-9, 39784-88) ; crime attributable tu liipior (39789-91).
MOOK, NG., of Victoria Page 5:{(;
Manager Chin Chong Company of merchants, resident about t'ighteen years, from
Canton, China (40417-22) ; Chinese in Victoria hold wholesale licenses, sell
Chinese wine made from rice, called cortin, sober people (40423-57).
RICHARDS, Hon. ALBERT NORTON, Q.C., of Victoria, Harrister-at-Law. Page*>0»
Barrister and Queen's Counsel of Ontai'io, resident from 1875 to 1881, returned
1884, formerly Police Magistrate (39735-7, 39748) ; Scott Act benetical in
Brockville in 1881-2, afterwards repealed (39738-44) ; favours com[)ensation
(39751-3) : prohibitior riglit in principal, opposes it as unfair to those who
wish to drink (39754-61); crime C(mnnilted through li(pior (39755).
SAUER, GREGORY CLEMENT, of Victoria Page 5I<»
President of Licensed Victuallers' Assncijition, hotel-kccpei', resident ten yciii-s,
from California, (40000-3) ; holds old license (4000^) ; licence law obsci\('d,
favours inspection, use of light wines increasing (4000!t-15, 40021) ; aiiti i)rolii-
bition, impracticable, favours compensation (10022-4, 40059-61 j; licensees
associated for protection, and enforcing law (40032-58).
SHAKESPEARE, NOAH, of Victoria Pag(; ,l»l
Postmaster, resident since 1862 (40299-300) ; License Commissi(.ner (403;i8) ;
license law works all right, licensing wrong, better than untrammelled sale,
law not local option, illicit sale, perpetual licc-nses, favours ainiual application
for license, Chinese brandy (40302-6, 40310-28, 40339-64): prohibitionist
popular sentiment against prohibition, becoming more favourabli-, prohibition
could be enforced, favours compensation (40307-8, 40329-37, 40360-2).
SHEPHERD, HENRY WILLIAM, of Victoria, Superintendent of Citv Poliee
Page -17*4
Resident thirty years, Superintendent four years, poliee ap])ointed by city authorities,
their duties (39231-43) ; license; law well observe<l, eiti/ens ([uiet and orderly,
sailors, and Chinese and liipior (39244-58, .39.305-18); houses of ill t'linie si^ll
liijuor (39270-3) ; drinking and population increased (39300-1) : would license
places with full aecc .MUiodation only (39249); advocates inebriate asylums
(39259-60) ; prohibition inaih isable, but practicable, smuggling would exist
(39264-7); favours compensation (392S5-96) ; Chinese get Indian'; drink,
police record, (39268-84, 39302-4) ; offences connected with li.juor (392'.I7 9).
WARD, ROBERT, of Victoria, Merelwuit Page ,121
Provincial Justice of Peace, resident twenty-three years, formerly liicense Commis-
sioner (40100-6) ; license law not enforced, that in Victoria practically local
option, hotels and saloons, various kinds of license, liaiKt Jide traveller diffi-
culty, Chinese give Indians liipior, favoui's ins])(;ction (10107 34. IO|i)2 73,
, 40193) ; favours night closing (40174-9); trade reipiires regulation (40180-
3, 40262-6) ; prohibition impracticable, would induce smuggling, favours lib-
693
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papei-s (No. 21.)
A. 1894
Wakd, Robert — Continued,
eral compensation (4013r)-42, 40217-8); prohibition in North-wost fair test ;
personal search of travellers ; excessive chinkinL' (40143-61) ; poverty, crime
and Houor (40201).
WATSON, Rev. COVERDALE, of Victoria Page 540
Methodist Minister, resident five and a half years ; in province eight years and a
half ; from Toronto (40522-")) ; public favour justifies licenses (40r)28) ;
prohii)itiunist ; anti compensation ; growing temperance sentiment ; concurs in
deliverance of Provincial Conference (40r>29-44).
WTLSON, ALEXANDER, of Victoria, Merchant
Resident thirty- three years (.39921-3) ; license fee formerly 8000 now $200 ; law not
observed (39925-30) ; proliibitionist, license sin, anti compensation, prohibition
could be enforced (39934-5S) ; less drinking now than formerly (39959-60) ;
hotels worse than saloons (39901-3) ; prohibition feeling growing (39964-99) ;
crim.e and drink (39980-3).
NANAIMO, 21st of NOVEMBER, 1892.
CAMPBELL, GEORGE, of Nanaimo Page 5TO
Foreman Vancouv ■ Coal Coiniany since 1S75 (41133-4) ; high license, too many
saloons; fewer saloons, less liqufii' (41143-0); prohibitiim wanted (41147-50,
41179-89) ; by men whodrink (4115S-62) : anti compensation (41 103-4, 41167-
9, 41190-3) ; drinking sinful (41170-78) ; miners and liquor, loss of time round
pay day, fear of losing place lessens drinking (41151-7); money invested in
breweries could be better employed (41105-0).
DRAKE, SAMUEL, of Nanaimo, .Sherifi' Page 5*12
Sheriff eight years ; appointed by Pro\iniial Govei'iunent ; resident over fifty
years (40727-31); license always in force; mixed and floating population;
community orderly (407.32-38); license law works satisfactorily (407.39-41) ;
Sunday closing beneficial and popular (40758-02) : anti prohibition ; pro-
hibition would retjuire an army to enforce, cause snuiggling, prove impracti-
cable (40742-50) ; favours compensation (40767-9) ; favours license but no
monopoly (40777-8); crime scarce; drink and crime; sales to Indians
(40779-88).
GOFF, SA^IUEL, of Nanaimo Page 558
City clerk of Nanaimo twelve years, resident thirty-six years ; Secretary to Licens-
ing Board (40844-9) ; constitution ami duties of LiL-eiising Hoard (40850-8) ; old
and new licenses, law improved, Sunday drinking (40859-66, 40891-913,
40923-7) ; favours prohibition, license next best, preferable to free traffic ;
prohibition as practicable as any other law ; in vours comi)ensation (40807-86) ;
less drinking than formerly, temperance sentiment growing (40887-92, 40914);
illicit selling (40915-22).
HASLEM, ANDREW, Mayor of Nanaimo, Sawmill Owner Page 555
Resident eleven years ; in liritish Columbia seventeen years (40789-93); Chairman
of Board of License Connnissioners (40803) ; connnunity sober and orderly,
foreign element (40797-802) ; license law well observed, no illicit selling ;
Sunday selling question;d)le ; wants bar-rooms closed ; city takes ii'^ense fees
(4080.3-17, 40832-5, 40837-42) ; drinking decreasing (40836) ; favours prohibi-
tion ; practicability (juestionabie ; danger of smuggling (40818-26, 40843);
favours compensation (40827).
694
' '. Index and Analysis of Evidence.
McGregor, WILLIAM, of Nanaimo, Colliery Manager Page S06
Resident in Nanaimo twenty-six years; manager six years (41039-41); large
employ(>rs of labour : Sunday closing beuiilieial (41042-r»0) ; prohibition
desirable, enforcement ditlicult, })racticable witii etlicientotlicials ; public senti-
ment favourable; compensation just (41051-Gl) ; would lessen number of
licensed houses (410G2-5) ; company dismiss men who drink, habits improving,
drinking round pay day ; allow no license places on their ground (41000-87).
McRAE, Rev. D. A., of Nanaimo Page HHO
Presbyterian Minister, in Province two years (41. '544-5); Chairman of the Central
Temperance Committee (41.'?").'?) ; Sunday closing observed, bars should be
closed (41.'5.")0-.">) ; city improving, temperance spreading (41358-<)0) ; wants
prohjl '" 1, meantime regulation, smuggling would exist ; anti compensation
(41300..)); favours limitation of hours (41376-83); Drunkards Act openly
violated (41388-94) ; ciime and li<iuor (41395).
MACKENZIE, COLIN C, M.P.P., of Nanaimo Page SHU
Real estate and Insurance Agent in Nanaimo eight years, in Province thirty-four
years (41457-00); resident in Winnipeg five years under strict prohil)ition ;
Hudson Bay Company imported rum and brandy (41401-73) ; favours license
(41475); bar-rooms should close on Sundays (41484-5) ; prohibition desirable
if practicable ; voluntary abstinence growing (41470-80, 41494) ; place
habitual inebriates in asylums (4148I-:i) ; favours compensation (41483);
Sunday closing opposed in Legislature (41480-92); license fairly observed ;
illicit sale (41495-7).
O'CONNOR, THOMAS, Chief Constable of Nanaimo Page 56S
Chief constable eight years, ajjpointed by Council, n^sident thirteen years (41 008-1 2) ;
city orderly, large floating population (4101.'$ 23) ; drunkenness slightly increas-
ing, cause of most arrests, less drunkenness under Sunday closing (41024-32) ;
bars should close on Sunday (41032-4); no gambling (41036-8).
PAWSON, JOHN, of Nanaimo Pago liHll
Gentleman, in Province thirty-four years ; in Nanaimo twenty-four years (41390-8) ;
formerly licensee (41410) ; smuggling and illicit distilling in Alaska
(41404-5) ; license law works satisf.ictorily, too many licenses issued (4 1 400-12) ;
prohibition objectionable, would produce smuggling and illicit distilling ;
favours compensation all round ; drunkenness a disease; inherited sometimes
(41413-50).
PLANT A, JOSEPH, Police Magistrate at Nanaimo Page 54>|.
Justice of Peace and Stipendiary Magistrate three years ; in Nanaimo seventetMi
years ; in British Columbia, twenty years (40928-30) ; license law well
observed ; few cases arise ; Sunday sales, bars should be closed ; illicit selling ;
old licenses and now; c-.-ime .scarce (40937-59, 40978-84, 40990, 41007);
more liijuor in i)rivate wouses (40900-1); ]>rohibition <lesirable ; imj)ractical)le
(40903-4) ; faxours com]iensati()n (40905-9) ; crime and litjuor (40970-4
40985-89) ; favours asylums for inebriates (409Vo-7).
PRAEGER, EMIL ARNOLD, M.D., of Nanaimo Page «T7
Mine surgeon, in Province, nine years; formerly colliery surgeon for Lord Duriiam
in England (41278-82) ; miners more sober than in England (41282-4, 41300);
action of license law improved since Sunday t;losiiig, less drunkenness ; popular
(41285-7) ; favours license with early closing (41295-300) ; licensees sell to intox-
icated men (41301-2) ; hotels preferable to saloons (41313-8) ; prohibition im-
practicable, failed in North-west Territories and United States; favours com-
pensation (412^8-91, 41303-0, 41319-43) ; comparison, mining communities in
England and British Columbia (41292-4) ; moderate drinking not harmful,
poison matter of quantity (41307-10).
695
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
RANDOLPH, JOSEPH, jr., of Harewood District, Nanaimo, Mine Overman.
Page .'57«
Oversf'pr three year.s (412-19) ; prohibitionist on principle, licensing sin (4125,'? 7);
drinkers not employed in mines, rule beneficial, keeps men from liquor (41258-
71 ) ; no saloons near mines (41274-7) ; licensed places more than match church-
es and temperance societies (41272-.'}).
WALK EM, WILLIAM W., M.l)., of East Wellington, B.C Page 576
In Nanaimo ten years, in Province seventeen years (41194-G) ; License Board and
law unsatisfactory ; poor men crowded out; licensees observe law (4119(S-20G)
license attaches to property, should be renewed annually (41414-lf^); favours
high license and more saloons (41 2."5-"?-4) ; prohibition impracticable, would
induce smuggling and illicit traffic ; education to prohibition wanted ; favours
compensation (41207-10, 41225-.'}2) ; prohibition would benefit general health
(4124:' <■ ■■■ cases caused by alcoholism (41211-3) ; deaths and crime due to
alcohol (4 '219-24); abstainers best chance in illness (41235-39); desire for
drink heredii,;ry (41240, 41246); drink and insanity (41243-5).
WOLFE, MARCUS, of Nanaimo, Insurance Agent Page 5«S.
Resident eleven years, in iiritish (Jolumbia thirty years (41088-9) ; license law
works satisfactorily ; higher license, larger revenue (41093-5); prohibition
would mean smuggling, would be evaded ; favours compensation (41096-103);
insurance com{)any refuses licjuor manufacturers and vendors, (juestions
drinkers, drunkards not accepted ; higher fire rates for hotels and houses in
proximity; contradict' ""y statements (41104-32).
NEW WESTMINSTER, 22nd NO VEMBER, 1892.
Ill
if'.;.
ATKINSON, THOMAS C, of New Westminster Page 5»'4
Police Magistiate eight years and .Justice of Peace for district of New Westminster,
foi-merly member of Ijicensing Hoard (41610-19) ; license law works well, few
cases before him (41616-7): Sunday closing observed, no il!i"it selling, no
sales to Indians, little drunkenness (41621-28, 4 1 675-82) ; crime and liquor
(41629-35, 41649-66) ; diinking decreasing (41636-7); prohibition imprac-
ticable; drinking under Scott Act in Halton and C ^invall ; many prohibition-
ists froni sentiment, not assist ent(/;cemcnt (11638-48) ; smuggling would
exist (41667-74) ; no law is preferable to a violated law (41683-4) ; Youths'
Protection and Drunkards Acts (41685-92).
BROWN, -lOHN C, 'Sl.F.F., of New Westminster Page 603
Postmaster, formerly Mayor, in Province thirty years (41802-5) ; drinking habits
chimged (41808-12); prohibitionist, license law best in Province, number of
saloons restricted, favours jaohibition, objects lo community receiving from
what creates crime ; prohibitory law could be enforced as well as customs
(4181:1-35); tratKc harmful (41839).
CUNNIN(!H.\:\r, Mrs. MARIANNE, of New Westminster Page 608
Resident thirty years ; President Woman's Christian Temperance Union, conduct
niissson, rescue work and fight social evil ; unfortunates addicted to drink
(41901-7); liijuor and crime; liquor umnitigated evil (41908-11); favours
piohibitiim direct ; sentiment growing (41912-1, 41920-2); license law unsatis-
factory; property owners powerless; hotels worse than saloons, anti com-
pensation (41913-9).
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
I'l.SIfKR, T.SAAC I'.., of New West.ninster.
(4184(;-GD). '*'' ' '"'"'•' •'"^■•' ^'«'"^•'^' ""t, favours c.n.pensatioa
H(WSTON, WILLIAM, of New Westminster
Chief Constable and License Tn«no,.f ^ ■" i ^"«® **<><>
;ieitsdling,Inchans\;otsupp Llby i:^^^^^^ carried out, no ii-
favours inspection of Hquo,^ (4 7T4 52 4 ?78 sn ^^ "!'>' ^''" "'^•''"•^^'' =
Pacific Railway construction under Public W ,t ^ i 77? S'^'p J-'" Can.uiian
national prohibition would produce iliHt ;. ^^n-l^.'J"*-^'^' -^I'^'-S) ;
pensation (41771). P'o""ee illicit sellluig (41<G(!-70); favours com-
MoTIKHXAN, PATRECK, of New Westminster. ... p ,.,,^
'■'^Si.^tra;^:ri?;=
Indians prohibitelfrom li^r;^i;^:ii;il£n'--^S^^^^
MOSELEY, WILLIAM, of New Westminster. ' p
(iovernor of Provincial Jail since 1860, st^.tistics 'uimiQ-' ' V. ToV IT ^
and drunkenness (41 70;U) 4]7-),S •?.^\ ■ 1; 1 • 1 ' -^''-l-SiJ); crmie
restriction wanted „ nation of / ' •'"""•'^ ■"^- ■^'^f^factory in degree ; more
enforced prohibitio^i i X ble in I •?,";!" V^ T"'?^' '" ^Irunkanls (41707-l;i) ;
and illicit distilling (417i4 20). ^'"l"'"bia ; would produce smuggling
R< )BSON, R.,:v. ERENEZER, of New Westminster ... p ..,,,,
Methodist Minister, in Province np.irlv tl.;. f * "\\ ^''^^^ ''^^^
deliverance faVouHgp^,; J,^^^
drinking decreasing"(J 87T.s'.tl AcV'^-^ 'ri^ \ ^'"'"P'^^'^'^tion ('4187(5) ;
Counties, Ont., herZ^^ ^^.^Z^^ UlS^v'T ffi"', ^^-■^'ir'"'-''-"'
liquor men (41879-80). »" ^loiatea (418,. 5); traffic has evil effect on
TOWNSHEND. WILLIAM R, M.^or of New Westminster p ,^«
"-S;^fS-gi^s-'^r:!;t.^r"--
Sc^i^^-S'SrH^^
plied by hmg shor,. toughs ; m 'li^clT^Ji^^ S>;^' / Jl^^^ ''t'"" >^^?-
.ununenforcible; favours compen.sation (41441-7 41floo n '• T*' l^'.'"''."'-
ioss than formerly ; temperance 'sentiment gtowin^ (ll.'S^Sj. '^ ''■'''"''
VANCOUVER, 23rd NOVEMBER, 1892.
..RBOTT HARRY, of Vancouver
General Superintendent of Pacific Division of CuridiV,." P.' V" ' 1. ■•', ' ' ^^^^
smce 1885 (42249-5->i' li..p„.„ , V- .^^' ' '^"'"'" ^^'^''way, resident
loosely; Sundajii^^n e" rr4 "vfl-;^ -tt.sfactory ; licensed granted
^entiful (4226^7) ; ,.S^, ^V^J^Z^^t ^^' = """"'•
ure travd 422S31- ^^S^] '"'K'"r"" i^.^'^'^f ' prohibition l.ndd in-
have some nii-abstinencJ n;;i;'|42^^;4^4SJ?';«)''"'"^^ '^™'^' '''"^^^''^ '
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No. 21.)
A. 1894
COPE, KUAN K, ^fayor of Vanccuvnr Pn<,'c OIO
Mei'cliant, n-sidoiit four yeans ( I IOl'.*?- t) ; License CoinnuHsionor ( 4 lU.iS !») ; lictMiso
law satisfactory; insjioctioii carried (uit ; Sunday closiii;,' ()l)scrviMi ; Indians
;,'ivcn li(|U()r hy outsiders, not lic('nsfi's{4li»tO .")."i, H!)7.'5iS.'{) ; Scott and Dunkin
Acts unsatisfactory in operation (I lOoC)-!)! ; 419C)4; 11984); anti prohiiution
(4ii)()l'-72) ; favours compensation (41 US.')).
DEVINE, JOHN, of Vancouver, Agent Page (M(f
Collector in Province sevcin years; License Connnissioner (4J7 1 --7) ; liccMisc^ law
enforced woulc] make fine city; not enforced ; li<|Uor sold in restaurants Sun-
days and weekdays; fe.ars increase of licenses; liotel.s preferable! to saloons;
favour.s regular hours for closing (4"_'71S-40, 42771-8")^, License Inspectors'
duties not performed (42741-G) ; favours prohibition; impracticable at present;
compensation dependent on circumstances (4'274'.l-.")7).
HAMMERSLEY, ALFllED ST. (iEOROE, of Vancouver Page 654
Barrister and City Solicitor, resident four and a half years (42876-7) ; license laws
in Australia and New Zealand much the same as here ; preferred to local
option (42880-9.'?): Sunday law beneficial though violated (42894-G) ; suggests
severe punishment for habitual drunkards (42897-9) ; prohibition inipi'actic-
able, failed in New Zealand, produces smuggling ; favours compensation
(42905-10) ; licenses in Australia and New Zealand lefjuire consent of com-
munity ; annual application ; are granted hotels only ; cairy no vested right
(42917-30).
JACK, W. D. BRYDONK, M.D., of Vancouver Page G5»
Resident thi-ee years (42838-40) ; license law satisfactory, though violated
(4284.'5-7) ; favoui's prohibition, next license ; compens:ition or time (42848-.")2) ;
Sunday di'inking, social evil and licjuor (428.")."i-r)) ; abstinence conduces to best
health ; drinking hereditaiy ; enforced pi'ohii)ition would prove beneficial ;
abstainers and insurance (42856-7).
JORDAN, GEORG E A., of Vancouver Page 014
Police Magistrate, appointed by Provincial Government (42024-9); community
law-abiding ; Chinese and linuor (42030-G) ; li(|Uor and ci'ime (42038-9 ;
42062-70) ; law well observed ; Sunday selling ; prosecutions ; no illicit sell-
ing ; police enforce law ; insufiicient (42041-51 ; 42071-2) ; Scott Act failed in
County of Victoria ; repealed (42052-7 ; 42073-4) ; pi-oliibition impracticable ;
facilities for smuggling and illicit distilling; favoui's compensation (42058-()l ;
42075-96); law broken, disastrous ; fault of ofiicials (42097-103).
McLEOD, MURDOCK (!., of Vancouver Page 621
License Inspector, Jailor, and Clerk of Police Court; resident four years ; official
duties (42178-84 ; 42214-20) ; bars closed Sundays ; no illicit selling, unless in
fancy houses (4218.5-95; 42211-3; 42221-39; 42246-8); Scott Act in Bruce,
Ontario, failed () prohibit ; was repealed (42196-203); prohibition impractic-
able in British Columbia on account of facilities for smuggling, and illicit
distilling; favours compensation (42204-10); crime and liquor (42240-5).
McGUIGAN, THOMAS F., of Vancouver Page 613
City Clerk; in Province eight years (41986-90) ; license 'aw works fairly ; strict Sunday
closing (41994-5); prohibition impracticable (41996-9 ; 4201.3) ; licjuor under
permit in Northwest Territories ; on Canadian Pacific Railway construction
under prohibition; smuggling in every shape from all ((uarters (42000-12 ;
42015-21 ; favours compensation (42014) : too many licenses (42023).
698
Index and Analysis of Evidence.
Mi.(JlJI(iAN, W. .1., M. I)., of Vancouvor I'.igo HUH
MciiHcfil llt'iiltli Otlicer, Coroiior, imd AliliTiiifin ; t'oniiorly .siir;{eoii on (!. 1*. H.; in
Proviiieesiiine IHH") (42o24-.'U) ; sinu;,'t;linj{ on C P. H. construction untltT
PuV)lic Works Act despite police (\2^>S'2-4\) ; license satisfactory, Sunday law
violated, all licensees offend ; li<|Uor men law breakers ; popular sentiment
favours violation ; wants Sunday closing (4"J")42-71, 4"200.'5-14) ; deaths from
li(luor (42572-7) ; al)stin<Mice and (excessive drinking incompatiWIe with health
(42")78-S0, 42")85-9!)) ; insurance companies refuse li(iu()r sellers (42581-4);
prohibition impracticable ; favours compensation (42G15-7, 42(i2l 2!)) ; favours
punishing drinkers and sellers violating law (42018-20, 42().{0-."U).
McLAllEN, JAMKS, Chief Constable of Vancouver Page «I7
Resident since 1880 (42104-7) : duty to enforce license law ; License Inspector n^ports
to him (42108-9) ; law works well ; Sunday law maintained; convictions at
first, dirticulties of enforcenietit, drunkards mostly outsiders (42111-28 ; 42138-
51) ; prohibition impracticable, smuggling (421.'?2-7) ; fancy hous(;s and licpior
(42152-60) ; crime and liquor (42101-70).
MELLON, HENRY A., of Vancouver, General Merchant Page Ii50
American Lloyd's agent and Justice of Peace, resident six years (42780-7) ; license
law satisfactory (42791-.'?, 42820-3) ; prohibition at Rapid City, North-west
Territories, good two years, then failed ; smuggling becaiiu> a nuisance, license
introduced and enffirced (42794-805) ; license laws and drinking in (Jhina,
India, Turkey and Mediterranean ports (42800-10) ; anti prohibition ; means
illicit distilling or smuggling ; favours compensation (42817-19, 42833-7) ; grog
rations optional in navy ; abstinence in navy (42824-32).
MILLAR, JOSEPH E., of Vancouver Page H2H
Collector of Inland Revenue, in Province tlir(!e years ; his duties (42317-24) ; beer
trade increasing, statistics (42325-34 ; 42300-0) ; license law works well ;
favours high license, and fewer licenses, with no saloons (423.35-41 ; 12307-81) ;
prohibition impracticable, would induce smuggling (42343, 42382-5) ; illicit
manufacture small (42344-6) ; favours compensation (42349-59).
Recalled Page OIS
Presents statistics of liquor from bond at Donald (42632-40).
ODLUM, EDWARD, of Vancouver, Fire Insurance agent Page <i4tfi
Resident in Province four years (42041-4) ; Scott Act and l.>unkin Act conflict in
Renfrew, Ontario ; Scott Act induced diinking ; licjuor brought in fron; '.Que-
bec ; repealed (42045-54) ; license law works satisfactorily (42055-0) ; favours
prohibition if practicable, at present impracticable ; retpiires large majority ;
licen.-e preferable to untrammelled traffic, favours compensation (42050-1)5) ;
license in Australia, more drinking there (42660-09) ; drinking in Japan
(42670-1) ; liijuor stores and dwellings adjoining charged highei' rates of in-
surance (42777-9).
PRESTON, ISAAC, of Vancouver Page 6»4
Retired farmer, in Province three years (42434-8). Scott Act unsatisfactory in Dur-
ham County, Inspector did not work, magisti'ates declined to act, people dis-
gusted with non-enforced law ; was repealed ; Duiikin Act al.so failure
(42439-54, 42460-2, 42495-7, 42502-10). Intimidation during Scott Act
(42470-6). Total prohibition popular and practicable, shown by Scott Act votes
(42455-9, 42463-9, 42477-90, 4251 1-23). Anti compensation, would relieve small
men (42491-4). Liquor sold on Sundays (42498). Scott Act pi'eferable to
license in Ontario (42500-1). Growth of temperance sentiment, difficulties of
prohibition (42503-6).
699
r
57 Victoria.
Sessional Papers (No, 21.)
A. 1894
HOBH( )N, CHARLES Wl LLT AM, of Vancouver T'lf,'"^ «•«
Minm«<'rfor Hudson Hay Conipanv, liienscf, in Vaiuouver tlnoc years ; in Province
e?L'ht years (4-'()H0-!»()). License law satisfactory ( llM',')! ;!) ; well (.hservec
1
(■t-2703-(>) ; iiroliil)iti(jn iinpracticalile ; sniu,<,'f,'linj,' would ensue (P_t).».) (>) ;
Ka'vours compensation (42701) ; Canadian litjuors inspected ; imported li(iuors
not inspected (42697-700 ; 42707-1 1).
Page 031
resident five years ;
(4-j;<S(i-!)2) ; license
law prevents disorder, too many licenses, advocates hotels ( ^-•''■'•\-'^) J ^f''^*
Act unsatisfactory in Leeds and GrenviUe (42;5'J«)-402 ; 42107 9 ; 42419-21) ;
prohibition impracticable in British Columbia (42403 ; 42432 3) ; favours com-
pensation (42404), high license, restriction antl rigid inspection (4240.));
Char-Tes before him ; li.iuor and crime (42410-18); proliilntion for Indians
essential ; otherwise would injure Province ; li.iuor trafllc dangerous ; a menace
(42422-31).
SCHOFIELD, FREDERICK, of Vancouver
District Magistrate, appointed by Provincial Government, resi(l
Solicitor from County of Leeds and (irenville, Ontario (42.'
^i/,5^
700
A. 1894
. Payc « 15
in ProN iiicc
well ( ihser vcd
lie (l-Jtii».")-()) ;
i|)()rtc(l li([U(>rs
. . . Page 031
lit five years ;
<ti-!)2) ; license
m:\-S) ; Scott
9; 42419-21);
; favours coni-
ition (42405);
11 for Indians
•ous ; a menace