IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) ^^^^ 1.0 I.I ■so "^^ JII^^B ■it IM 2.2 2.0 1.8 L25 IliU 111.6 PhotDgraphic Sciences Corporation 23 WiST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. USM (716) 872-4S03 \ (V \\ '^^^^ 'ifc^ k<9 CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHIVI/ICIN/IH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques Technical and Bibliographic ^ote8/Notes techniques et bibliographiques The Institute has attempted to obtain the best original copy available for filming. Features of this copy which may be bibiiographically unique, which may alter any of the images In ihe reproduction, or which may significantly change the usual method of filming, are checked below. Coloured covers/ Couverture de couleur □ Covers damaged/ Couverture endommag^e □ Covers restored and/or laminated/ Couverture restaur^e et/ou pellicul6e □ Cover title missing/ Le titre de couverture manque I I Coloured maps/ Cartes gdographiques en couleur □ Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) □ Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur D D D D Bound with other material/ Relid avec d'autres documents Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion along interior margin/ La reliure serr^e peut causer de I'ombre ou de la distortion le long de la marge intdrieure Blank leav^o added during restoration may appear within the text. Whenever possible, these have been omitted from filming/ II se peut que certaines pages blanches ajouties lors d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texte, mais, lorsque cela dtait possible, ces pages n'ont pas dtd filmdes. Additional comments:/ Commentaires suppl^mentaires; L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur exemplaire qu'il iui a iti possible de se procurer. Les details de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-dtre uniques du point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier une image reproduite, ou qui peuvent exigc une modification dans la mdthode normale de filmage sont indiqu^s ci-dessous. The c to thi I I Coloured pages/ Pages de couleur Pages damaged/ Pages endommag^es Pages restored and/oi Pages restaurdes et/ou pellicul6es Pages discoloured, stained or foxe( Pages d6color6es, tachet^es ou piqu6es Pages detached/ Pages ddtach^es Showthrough/ Transparence Quality of prir Quality indgale de I'imprcssion Includes supplementary materi: Comprend du material supplementaire I I Pages damaged/ I I Pages restored and/or laminated/ r~T^ Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ I I Pages detached/ r~3 Showthrough/ I I Quality of print varies/ I I Includes supplementary material/ D D Only edition available/ Seule Edition disponible Pages wholly or partially obscured by er;ata slips, tissues, etc., have been refilmed to ensure the best possible image/ Les pages totalement ou partiellement obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata, une pelure, etc., ont 6t6 filmies d nouveau de fapon A obtenir la meilleure image possible. This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ce document est film6 au taux de reduction indiqui ci-dessous. 10X 14X 18X m( 26X 30X y 12X W'^l^^ ' 20X 24X J ma 32X 1 Theii possi of thi filmir Origii begin the la sion, other first ( sion, or ilk Theli shall TINU whici Maps differ entire begin right requii meth The copy filmed here has been reproduced thanks to the generosity of: Thomas Fiiher Rare Boole Library, University of Toronto Library L'exemplaire filmi f ut reproduit grAca A la g6n6rosit6 de: Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library, University of Toronto Library The images appearing here are 4;he best quality possible considering the condition and legibility of the original copy and in keeping with the filming contract specifications. Les images suivantes ont M reproduites avec le plus grand soin, compte tenu de la condition et de la nettet6 de rexemplaire film6, et en conformity avec les conditions du contrat de filmage. Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed beginning with the front cover and ending on the last page with a printed or illustratod impres- sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All other original copies are filmed beginning on the first page with a printed or illustrated impres- sion, and ending on the iast page with a printed or illustrated impression. The last recorded frame on each microfiche shall contain the symbol --^ (meaning "CON- TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), whichever applies. Les exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en papier est imprimde sont film6s en commen9ant par le premier plat et en terminant soit par la dernidre page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'illustration. soit par le second plat, selon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires originaux sont filmds en commandant par la premiere page qui comporte une empreinte d'impression ou d'illustration et en terminant par la dernidre page qui comporte une telle empreinte. Un des symboles suivants apparaTtra sur la dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le cas: le symbole — ► signifie "A SUIVRE", le symbols V signifie "FIN". Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre filmds d des taux de reduction diffdrents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour §tre reproduit en un seul cliche, 11 est film6 d partir de Tangle sup^rieur gauche, de gauche a droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n^cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 1 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 5 6 BY MR. MULOCK, IN THE H0U5E OF connoNS, IN THE SESSION OF 1894. OOUTEITTS PAGE. 1— Right to Examine Witnesses Under Oath i 2— Ocean Freight Rates on Cattle 15 3— Yearly Expenditure on Kingston Military College. 24 TORONTO: Printed by Hunter, Rose & Co., 25 Wellington Street West. 1894. 1 si>EEOia: BY MR. MULOCK IN THE HOUSE] OF coiMinv^onsrs ON THE 19th OF APRIL, 1894. In support of his rriotion that persons examined as witnesses as j to expend it a7'e of 2^ublic money shovXd he examined, under oath, etc. ' House op Commons, s ^ , ' . -' \ ^' Thursday, 19th April, 1894. V PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. ■■■' ' ■'.:!: '_ ■ . ^ \ •■■.-: Mr. Mulock moved : That, in accordance with the resolutions adopted unanimously by the House in the sessions of 1891 and 1892, it is desirable that any witnesses ^called before the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts be examined under oath or affirmation touching any matters coming before them. He said : Mr. Speaker, in ma^iing this motion, I may remind hon. members that it comes before the House now in consequence of the re- ports and actions of the Public Accounts Committee. In the session of 1891, the House itself passed a resolution in the words of that which is now in your hands. But the Public Accounts Committee, or some members of it rather, believing that it would be more courteous to the committee that the recommendation should come from the committee to the House, on this occasion I preferred to waive my own view as to the rights of the House, by first of all ascertaining whether the com- mittee agreed in the course which I am now taking. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker, as you will observe, from reading the first report, I moyed in the Public Accounts Committee to the effect of the motion now in your 2 hands, that it is desirable that witnesses before that committee should be examined under oath. Unfortunately, for the sake of tnat motioiA, the majority of the members of the Public Accounts Committee iid mit agree with the proposition, as appears by the r'>port on the table. Ac- cordingly, it becomes necessary now to ascertain whether a majority oi the House favor that view. I may say, Sir, that the motion before the committee was met by many objections. One objection was that the Parliament of Canada had no jurisdiction to confer such a power upon a select standing committee I do not know that that objection was taken with a great deal of confidence in its soundness on the part of the Minister of Railways, who first raised it, and other members of the Government. The next r Ejection, I believe, was that raised by the hon. member for South Norfolk (Mr. Tisdale). His objection was that the Ontario Parliament did not recognize such a practice, and, although the hon. member for South Norfolk had never been able to discover anything else that was good in the record of the Ontario Government^ he was able to recognize this one virtue— that they refused to allow ex- amination on oath regarding the expenditure of public money. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper. May I ask to what occasion the hon. gentlemen reit-.'s 1 Mr. Mulock. The first meeting of the Public Accounts Committee when the subject was discussed. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper. I think, Mr. Speaker, this is not in order, and that it would be an inconvenient mode of discussing this question. I do not think it is in order to refer to the discussions in the Public Accounts Committee. There may be dijfferent views as to what was said, and that may embarrass the discussion. Mr. Mulock. I think that, when the report of any committee is under discussion, anything that came before the committee respecting the subject of that report, is in order. Sia Charles Hibbert Tupper. The point I raise, Mr. Speaker, is that it is out of order to refer to what was said during the discussion in the Committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Mulock. I suppose the hon. gentleman would wish that what he said, and the points he took upon that occasion, which have thus far prevented this resolution being adopted, should not be known to the public. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper. On the contrary, I will repeat them to-day. Mr. Mulock. If the hon. gentleman repeats them to-day, there «an be no disadvantage in my anticipating them. At any rate, I do not wish to delay the proceedings of the House, or the consideration of this question by bringing in any controversial matters, because the question is suflBciently broad and substantial to entitle it to the support of the House, without bringing in any other question. But I was saying that objections have been raised to the passing of this measure. One is that the Parliament of Canada has no jurisdiction. Another is that the Ontario Government would not allow this course to be taken, and, be- cause of its wickedness in that respect, it received, for once, the support m ^1' f. i 'ti of the hon. member for South Norfolk. That was the only point in its record that he could find to entitle it to any consideration from him. Another objection taken by a gentleman who prefers to be governed by a law fo".r or five hundred years oid — the Minister of Public Works — was that, though th«re was jurisdiction to examine witnesses under oath, Parliament must know the names ot the witnesses, and must consider, ij^ every case, whether these witne8h,3s shall or shall not be thus examined. Another objection, taken by the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, is that this motion shall not be passed at all, but if there is any case sought to be made, it must, first of all, pass through the crucial test of the Public Accounts Committee, which must make the recommendation to this House to sanction further enqu'ry, and then this House shall proceed to consider the question. The last of the objections was that taken by the M inister of Finance, that the Public Accounts Committee is nothing but a committee of audit. That is the tenor of the argument of the hon. Minister of Finance. These are the various objections, so far as they have been given to the public ; but, singular to say, though the objections were cut away one by one, the hon. gentlemen, who had severally brought them forward, were still able to agree with the ma- jority, for unknown reasons, in preventing inquiry. The first question is that of jurisdiction. Upon that point to- day there is no possible doubt. It is true that, by the British North America Act, there was no jurisdiction such as is sought to he exercised to-day. That was remedied by an Imperial Act passed in the session of 1875. I may say that the question came up out of the consideration of an Act passed by this Parliament in 1873, which Act I now quote, chapter 1, Statutes of 1873, and the first section of which reads as follows : — Whenever any witness or mtnesses is or are to be examined by any com- mittee of the Senate or H ouse of Commons, and the Senate or House of Commons shall have rerjlved that it is desirable that such wi ness or wit- nesses shall be exumined upon oath, such witness or witnesses shall be ex- amined on oath or affirmation, when affirmation is allowed by law — And the Act prescribes penalties. Now, that Act was passed in order to meet the case of a contemplated inquiry into the Pacific Scandal. It was disallowed by the Imperial authorities on the ground that it exceeded the then jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada. But subsequently the Imperial Parliament, in the session of 1875, passed an enabling Act, repealing our old section 18 of the British North America Act, and passed another Act giving full authority to the Par- liament of Canada to delegate such powers, as are here sought for, to any of the committees of the House. The Parliament of Canada, in the exercise of the power so conferred on it, proceeded to legislate in that direction, and you will find the law on the subject in the Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter 11, section 21. This section is verbatim a copy of the words used in the Statutes of 1873, which were adopted in anticipation of a threatened inquiry. We must assume that the gentlemen who took part in the framing of that Act intended it to apply to the examination of witnesses whose names were not known at the time. They must certainly liave contemp[ated making it effective; and, therefore, even upon that ground alone, I think that it is fair to assume that the objection taken that the witnesses must be known is wholly untenable and contrary to the spirit of this section. I need not remind hon. gentlemen who voted against this motion in the committee that if any of them voted against it upon the understanding that the Ontario Legislature did not autiiorize such an inquiry under oath, my reading to them of the law of the land, as passed in the Ontario Legis- lature, showing that they were laboring under a mistake, may possibly cause them to change their views. The Legislature of Ontario, in 1872, Revised Statutes, chapter 5, passed the following Act : — Any standing or select coniniittee of the LegialaUve A ssenibly may require that facts, matters, uml things, relating to the subject of inquiry — be verified or otherwise ascertuined by the oral examination of witnesses, and may ex- amine such witnesses upon oath, and for that purpose the Chairman or any member of such coniinittee may administer the oath to any such witness. That became the law in the Province of Ontario in 1872. And I am told by the Treasurer of Ontario that, without exception, it hao been their invariable practice to allow the members of the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts in Ontario to examine witnesses on oath whenever and as often as they please. For twenty years that has been , the law, and I would ask the hon. member for South Norfolk (Mr. Tis- dale), who has been defending the Government because he thought there was no such law in Ontario, where he has been all this time. And I am told that such is the law also in the Province of Quebec, but of that I only speak from hearsay. But we are told that the language of this statute does not contemplate the giving of general power by the House to a committee to examine witnesses, but that the committee must send to the House the names of witnesses, or that some case must be made out, before the House will at all stir in the matter. Now, it is very singular that that discovery should only be made now. What has been the view taken of the law since it hi^s existed ? We have had in this House, from time to time, the most eminent lawyers that Canada has ever known. Some of them still enjoy the professional confidence of the community, others are filling high judicial offices in the land, and from year to year both the Senate and this House have constantly evoked the power of the Act now in force. Sir, never on one occasion do I find, from the examination of the records in the Senate and in this House, that either one of these Houses asked for the names of witnesses before giving a committee authority to examine generally. On the contrary, I find that the practice of both Houses, acquiesced in by common consent, has established, as the interpretation of this Act, that the House can dalegate to a committee the power to examine into all matters and to call for such witnesses as they may please, and examine them under oath or affirmation, where affirmation is allowed in lieu of oath. And J challenge any member of this Rouse to show a single case in which names of witnesses have been submitted to the House or the Senate, in order, to cause them to exercise the power conferred upon «l \ Vk them by thin Act. J ust let me for a moment givo to the House a few of the occasions on which the Senate and this House decided that they have the power to authorize committees to examine witnesses on oath. In 1877, the Senate passed a resolution appointing a committee to in- quire into certain matters touching the length of the line of the Cana- dian Pacific Railway from Keewatin westward, in a more southerly line, and so on. And we find that the resolution authorizes the committee — I give the exact wcrds : To send for persons and papers and reports, and to examine witnesses under oath. Not one single reference to the name of a witness, but a full power of attorney, to the committee to examine witness^ ^ generally under oath. In the following session, the Senate, on the motion of Senator Qirard, seconded by Mr. Reid, passed a resolution appointing a committee to inquire into certain matters regarding the approaches to the property at Fort William, and — authorized the committee to send for persons, papers and records and examine witnesses under oath, and report thereon with all convenient speed Again, in the same session, on motion of Hon. Mr. Macpherson, second- ed by Hon. Mr. Campbell, a resolution was passed appointing a select committee to inquire into certain matters connected with Fort Frances lock, and I quote the language of the resolution : Authorizes the committee to examine witnesses under oath and to employ a shorthand writer. In the following year, 1879, on motion of Hon. Mr. Macpherson, seconded by Hon. Mr. Allen, resolutions were adopted— all of which, I believe, were carried — authorizing a committee to inquire into certain matters respecting the surveys on the Canadian Pacific Railway, and the committee were authorized To take evidence under oath and to report to this House from time to time. Again, in the session of 1880, the senate passed a resolution, and this House confirmed it, appointing a committee to make the necessary in- quiries into all the circumstances connected with the opening of tenders for parliamentary printing, the withdrawal of tenders and other matters connected with printing, and declares as follows : And it is desirable that any witnesses who may appear before them in rela- tion to the above inquiry shall be examined under oath. Again, 1 remind the House that the Senate in the session of 1890, on the inquiry into the matter of the Bale des Chaleurs Railway, refer- red that subject to the Select Committee on Railways, Canals and Telegraph Lines, and in the following words authorized the committee to take evidence. 6 To send for luch peraons, papero and records ah ma^ from time to time he required hy said committee for the purpose of reporting evidence under oath as to >.\ny n)atttirB arising out of the examination hefore said contmittuo on the Bill from the Uouie of Commons respecting Baie des ClialeurH Railway. The Senate no longer than three years ago, authorized their committee to examine any person they chose to summon. T do not suppose the Senate had tlie faintest idea who the witnesses would he, yet the Senate thought they were properly interpreting the law, both when they passed that resolu*/ion and when they proceed '^d to carry it out. I now come to the decisions of this House. In 1877 this House directed an inquiry to be made into matters aifecting the Northern Railway, and the reso- lution app)inting the committee authorized it to examine witnesses on oath, as follows : It is desirable that any witness to be examined by said committee, be exam- ined under oath. Again, in 1877, the House referred a matter respecting Hon. Mr Anglin to the Committee on Privileges and Elections, with power to take evidence, as follows : It is desirable that any witness to be examined by the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections on the matters which have been refer- red to this committee shall be examined upon oath. Again, the House of Commons, in 1877, referred a matter respecting Mr. Norris to the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elec- tions, empowering* the committee to take evidence, as follows : It is desirable that any witness to be examined by the Select Standing Committee of Privileges and Elections, to whom it has been referred to inquire and report on the allegations made against Mr. James Norris, shall be examined under oath. Again, the House of Commons, in the same session appointed a com- mittee to inquire into certain matters respecting Mr. Currier, and empowered the committee to examine witnesses under oath as follows : It is desirable that any witness to be examined by the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, to whom has been referred this inquiry into matters concerning Mr. Currier, shall be examined under oath. Again, in 1 878, this House appointed a committee to inquire into cer- tain matters touching the North-west, and passed a resolution in the following words : It is desirable that any witness examined before the Select Standing Com- mittee on Public Accounts in connection with the expenditure of public money by the purveyors of the Government in the .iorth-west, shall be ex- amined under oath. Again, this House, in 1880, passed the joint resolution to which I have referred respecting printing, and in that resolution declared that in their opinion, " It is desirable that anv witneM or witneHHea who may appear before the oom- mitteo in relation to bhe above incpiiry shall be examined under oath. Again, in 1886, a charge was niado against a prominent memliet- of thifl House, at that time a legal gentleman of high standing - I refer to Mr. Hector Cameron — and that charge was referred to the CommituCi on Privileges and Elections, and the House on that occasion empowered the committee To send for persons, papers and rucords, and examine witnesses upon oath or Affirmation. Again, in 1888, it will be remembered that combinations in regard to trusts had grown to enormous and injurious proportions, and according- ly in that session this House passed a resolution appointing a se'ect standing commitee to inquire into such combinations, and it empowered the committee to take evic^ence under oath, With power to send for persons, painsrs and records, and with power to ex- amine persons called before them on oath. Again, in the session of 1889, this House appointed a committee to in- quire into certain alleged frauds on farmers, and it authorized that com- mittee to take evidence under oath, " with power to send for persons, papers and records, and examine under oath or affirmation, where affirma- tion is allowed by law, witnesses who may appear before the said com- mittee." Again, in the session of 1890, grave charges were made against a former member of this House,* Mr. Rykert. Those chari^es were referred to the Select Standing Committee on Privileges and Elec- tions for investigation, and the committee were empowered to examine -witnesses under oath or affirmation, where affirmation is allowed by law. Sir John Thompson. Can you give the date of that ? Mr. MuLOCK. The resolution giving power to the Committee on Public Accounts, you will find on page 253 of the Journals of the House of Commons, and the date on which it was passed is the 25th of June, 1891. The words that I read a moment ago as supposed to apply to the Rykert case, are the words applicable to this resolution. The words that the House adopted on the occasion T am last quoting, name- ly, the reference to the Public Accounts Committee, are as follows : That it is desirable that any witness called before the Select Standing Com- mittee on Public Accounts be examined under oath or affirmation, touchingany matters coming before them. Again, Mr. Speaker, in the session of 1891, the country and the House were convulsed with charges made in regard to certain misapproprisi- tions of public money, and other high crimes, Imay call them against the liberties of the people. I refer to the charges which culminated in the McGreevy-Connolly inquiry. These charges were referred to the Select Committee on Privileges and Elections, w'<^h power to examine 8 fM m I; witnesses under oath, and the words used, which certainly seemed suf- ficiently effective on that occasion, were : The committee was clothed with power to send for persons, papers and records and to examine witnesses upon oath or affirmation. I need not remind the House how that power was exercised. Day after day new witnesses were brought in, whose names were never dreamt of at the time the resolution was passed. Throughout the ^ lole series of cases to which I have referred, in no one instance has this House expressed any opinion as to who should or who should not be examined. The House left it entirely at the discretion of the com- mittee to use that power as it, in its judgment, saw best, in harmony of course, with the law. But, Sir, the Minister of Finance has now taken this extraordinary position : He contends that the committee is practically nothing but an auditing committee. I presume that the duties of this committee are analogous to those of the Standing Com- mittee o;a Public Accounts in the Imperial House of Commons, and if they are, on reference to the last edition of May's "Parliamentary Prac- tice," page 563, you will find tk'».r the Public Accounts Committee in England possesses more power than auditing; power. This is what May says : . The functions of this committee are to ascertain that the parliamentary grants for each financial year, including su| plementary grants, have been applied to the objects for which parliament ascribed them. N^ow, here is where May and the Minister of Finance will agree : And to recheck the official audit, created by the Exchequer Audit Depart- ment Act. And May then proceeds : The committee also scrutinizes the causes which led to any excess over parlia- mentary grants and the application of savings, and the grant made to the naval and military departments. Now, Mr. Speaker, this matter came up for the consideration of this House of Commons in 1891 in a more formal way than I have perhaps yet referred to. On the 19th of August, 1891, the Minister of Finance moved the House into Supply, and the member for Oxford South (Sir Richard Cartwright) made a motion in amendment, and perhaps the losolucion that he offered to the House, and the opinions which he expressed on it may appeal to the judgment of some hon. gentlemen ott the other side. The resolution which was moved on that occasion by the hon. gentleman (Sir Richard Cartwright) was in the following; words :— It is the undoubted right of the Committee on Public Accounts to inves tigate all circumstances connected with the payment of any of the several sums of public moneys, referred to that committee, — suf- and )ay ver the has not om- ony low e is the 'om- dif rac- e in rh&t tary jeea jart- rlia- the this laps ince (Sir the he 1 on I by ves eral 'i f Now, that is one proposition. — and that in the course of such investigation no evidence should be refused on the grot be per- mitted to discuss the conduct or language of members of the committee, ex cept so far as it appears on the record. Mr. MuLOCK. I accept you rulingj Sir, on that point. But, of course, the Minister will iepeat the language here which he used in com- mittee. I desire to say, in conclusion, that I trust the House will be able to make the Public Accounts Committee eflfective to discharge the duties for which it was created. WE ARE ANNUALLY CHARGED WITH INVESTIGATING the expenditure of a vast sum of money, now exceedieg $36,000,000. That certainly is an amount, the expenditure of which demands an in- vestigation at our hands. And if everything is correct, 1 can conceive of no more pleasurable duty which the Governwent could have than to charge this committee to most thoroughly probe everything to the bottom, armed at all points with every instrument necessary for the eflfective discharge of its duties. But if, on the other hand, the Government have a different view, and say the committee shall be ineflfective, and without authority, then the country will understand that they have practically dissolved the Public Accounts Committee. I Motion defeated. e e h e > SF22S3G:EX S7 MR. MULOCK IN THB \i ECOTJSE] OF OOUvdia^^OlTS » g e r- ON THE 26th OF JUNE, 1894. Ocean Freight Rates on Cattle. )f •e le ¥■ i \ Mr. Mulock. Before you leave the Chair, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have the attention of the House for a few moments while I refer to a matter that had already received a good deal of attention at the hands of the House and the country — I refer to THE CATTLE QUESTION. ** Of course, I cannot refer, on this motion, to the Bill that I introduced on the 20 th March last, dealing with the matter, and if by accident I should do so, I hope, Mr. Speaker, you will be considerate, inasmuch as the matter is one of considerable importance. The order of the House last Monday having terminated any chance of moving the Bill, and as I have observed from the discussion that the Government contemplate, not absolutely setting their faces against all legislation, but only against my proposed measure, and to make inquiries, I thought per- haps I might be permitted to refer to the question in the abstract, at all events, without reference to any proposed legislation. Now, if you look at the figures of the cattle trade, I think the House must come to the conclusion that PUBLIC INTERESTS AND THE PUBLIC WELFARE WOULD SERIOUSLY SUITER if this trade were destroyed. The trade in live cattle with Great Britain within the last few years has assumed national importance, and its destruction must affect the national welfare. If we proposed to ignore any cause that destroyed the products of the mines, the 16 -whole country would unanimously say that if any legislation could prevent such a disaster, such legislation should bo forthcoming ; and yet the products of the mines have not brought back to Canada within the last four years, within eight million dollars what has been brought back to Canada by the cattle trade. I dare say the statistics I have referred to, if extended prior to 1890, would show similar results. But I am only taking the figures for the years 1890, 1891, 1892, and 1893. During the last four years the gross amount of manufactures of Canada exported was $25,944,284 ; while the gross value of the cattle exported from Canada to Great Britain during the same period, amounted to $29,874,532 ; in other words, the live cattle exported brought back to Canada over $3,950,000 more than was brought back to Canada from* the sale of raamufactured goods. Now, if you were told that the •exports of manufactured goodt. from Canada was in danger, and in all probability would be absolutely terminated, that there would not be a •dollar's worth of the man factures of Canada sold abroad unless legisla- tion intervened, public opinion would demand such legislation, and I ^ave no doubt that a response would be found in the Parliament of Canada. When, therefore, I show that the magnitude of the cattle trade exceeds that of the mines, and also that of manufactured goods, not both together, but separaiyoly, and show that within four years it has been within five millions of the value of our fisheries, surely the trade itself is one of suflBci^nt national importance to demand the best atten- .tion and consideration of those who represent it. IT IS ONE OF SUCH FAR-RBAOHING CONSEQUENCE that I am satisfied that it demands legislation, if it is in the slightest degree in danger of destruction. It is not as if the farmers could now abandon the production of cattle and turn their attention to some other branch of husbandry. The time was when their principal efforts were the production and sale of grain, but we know what has become of that trade. We know how countries able to produce grain more cheaply entered into keen competition, so that our farmers had to change their method and turn their attention to the production of something in respect to which they occupied a specially favorable position, and that was the production of live stock and the products of live stock, such as cheese, butter, etc. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SATISFACTORILY CARRY ON EVEN THE DAIRYING INDUSTRY. t unless there is a profitable market for live stock. If we treated dairying as the main object, then the sale of live stock becomes as it were a by- product to that industry. It will not do to say the trade in live stock is of no consequence, and that the farmers can still change their methods and give their attention solely to the products of live stock, because the time comes sooner or later, when all the cattle have to go to the shambles, either here or abroad. So, however you look at the matter 17 I? 1. I ; I THE FARMUR8 ARE DRIVEN TO THE LAST DITCH. Grain growing is a thing of the past, and the only remaining indus' try is the production of live stock, with a view of selling it or the pro- ducts of live stock. The trade in horses is practically a thing of the past. We have lost the American market, and while it is said there is a valuable market in Great Britain for certain classes of horses, it does not happen that we ave special horses to any great extent to meet such a demand as exists in Englan'l. So that the trade in live stock is one that directly and indirectly affects to a very large extent the Canadian farmer to-day, and ^whilst the matter has received much attention at the hands of the House this session, IT HAS NOT RECEIVED MORE THAN IT WAS ENTITLED TO, nor do I think quite all that attention to which it was entitled. The fact that the public feel interested in the measure has been verified, for almost since the session opened, we have had daily recurring the presentation of petitions coming from all parts of Canada, asking for legislation to deal with the evil referred to in the measure I sub- mitted to the House. It, therefore, cant^ot be said that the measure is not one of national importance, and it cannot be that there is no evil existing, because we have evidence of it in the Journals of the House during the last three months. What are those evils? Hon. gentlemen are aware that there can be no live cattle sent to England now, except through a Canadian port. If it was proposed to send them through an American port, Canadian cattle would be subjected to quarantine regulations in the United States for a period of 90 days, the same regulations being imposed as regards Canadian cattle entering the United States. I find no fault with the American regulation, for it is a counterpart of our own, but I merely mention it to show that there is really only one avenue by which cattle from here to the Rocky Mountains can reach Europe, and that is through a Canadian port, which practically is Montreal. It is true there are other ports, but it is equally true that the vessels which ply between these ports and Great Britain are under the same control as those which at the present time have carried on the trade principally from the port of Montreal. It might be argued that the law of supply and demand would regulate this question, and I myself being in favor of free trade as nearly as we can obtain it, would, in the abstract, concur in the argument that the law of supply and demand would regulate this as all other matters. BUT IF ARTIFICIAL MEANS ARE ADOPTED to prevent the law of supply and demand applying, and if those artificial means are such as to make the application of that principle impossible, then the time arrives for Parliament to intervene, and, as nearly as possi- ble, apply the principle of supply and demand, and overcome the selfish- ness and greed of those who endeavor to prevent the application of that principle, and therefore if we cannot ascertain at Montreal the B 18 cost of carrying Canadian cattle to British ports on account of inter- ference between supply and demand, we will be able to find the true value as a result of the application of the principle of supply and demand in adjacent ports, > AND TRANSFER THAT RATE AND MAKE IT APPLY to the trade as conducted between our own and foreign ports. It has been charged by the Dominion Live Stock Association, and it bas not been contradicted, that the Canadian vessel companies carrying on business from Montreal have, f >r several years, entered into a com- bination whereby they exact excessive rates for Canadian cattle. There are five lines of steamers engaged in the cattle trade — there may be an odd tramp or two besides — namely, Allan, Donaldson, Dominion, Beaver, and Hansa. Some of the lines have, during the period, received subsidies from the Dominion Government for carrying the Dominion mails. These subsidies, during the four years to which I allude, aggregate at least half a million dollars. Certainly, to that extent, to the extent of our patronage, the lines should show fair dealings towards the Canadian people, but I do not rest our contention on any such incidental or accidental circumstances as that. The Dominion Live Stock Association presented to the public in the early part of April a statement, a manifesto it has been called, which has been 'published throughout the country, and appeared in every journal of importance. It has, therefore, been brought before the attention of the vessel owners, and I think I am correct in saying that, up to the present time, NO PERSONS INTERESTED IN THE CARRYING TRADE have ventured to contradict any of the charges contained in the document. I have here a copy of the document. For two months it has remained uncontradicted, the only recognition of it, so far as we can see, being that for the time being the combination has collapsed, or has suspended operations, to resume them when opportunity arises. I remind the House of that possibility, because it may be argued that no legislation is now needed, inasmuch ad the companies have improved their methods : but inasmuch as they have maintoined their combina- tion, not only during the four years in question, but many years anterior to that date, it is not safe to run the risk of leaving the cattle trade, even for a comparatively short period, at the mercy of the steamship companies, which, in this respect, have such a very bad re- cord. Now, I think it is fair that we should take as correct, state- ments which are admitted by the steamship companies to be correct. What are the charges which the men engaged in the cattle trade make against the combination of veseel representatives ? The Dominion Live Stock Association, speaking of the representatives of the steamship lines, assert : p 19 They have their Hgents in England cabling over constantly, as to the prices of cattle. If it goes up, they put up the freight rates, including rates for cattle already on board. Where does the freedom of contract come in here ? Exporters have large numbers of cattle at the port of Montreal — practically the only Canadian port from which they can be exported these cattle are in the stock-yards or on the cars awaiting shipment ; and the only possible way by which these animals can be marketed is to send them by the vessels, all of which are in the combination, and which follow the practice that is here charged against them. Where, I ask, is there any freedom of contract under circumstances like these ? The theory as to fair and free contract is, that both parties should be free to submit or not to submit to its terms if they choose ; but in this case there is no freedom whatever, because the cattle trade is entirely at the mercy of the carrying trade. If this statement is true, and it is not contradicted, we must accept it as correct, it shows what greed will accomplish. The Dominion Live Stock Association goes on to say : Each line has its representative at Montreal, and what is easier than for these representatives to meet weekly, or oftener, and combine as tu cattle rates. They have their agents in England, cabling them constantly as to the price of cattle. If it goes up, they put up the freight rates, including rates for cattle al-^-iady on board. If the price falls, rates do not come down in proportion. If there is a large quantity of cattle at Montreal, the vessel men combine to exact excessive rates. If the markets improve, and shippers want to ship in time to take advan- tage of such improvements, up go the rates. In fact, every state of the mar- ket, or exigency of the cattle trade, seems to be taken advantage of by the vessel men to levy excessive rates. Buyers cannot ascertain befor^ buying what the rates will be. Thus, with a well-grounded fear of being charged excessive rates, they have to buy in ignorance of what the vesFsl men will charge to carry the cattle to market The rate may be ^ a head, or it may be 817.60. This uncertainty alone m^kes cattle buying extremely hazardous, to the great prejudice, in some cases, of the farmer who sells, in others, of the buyer. Why should a legitimate industry be reduced to the level of gambling? Buyers, who in buying have not reckoned on a udden squeeze by the vessel men, have lost heavily, some even being ruined, or driven out of the trade. In any event, this very element of uncertainty renders it extremely diflScult for the buyers to know what they may safely oflFer for cattle. As a rule, shippers do not know what the rates are to be, until the cattle have been purchased, brought to Montreal, and loaded, and the vessel is ready to «ail. In some cases the rate is fixed after the ship h-^s sailed with the catth on board. In securing space, the shippers at times have to agree to pay what- ever are t;he going rates. This means whatever the agents of the vessel owners combine upon, when the shippers are in their power. In these and other ways, the whole export cattle trade of Canada is now being paralyzed by one of the hugest combinations in Canada. The first principle of a contract is that both parties to it are free to assent or not to assent to its terms. Here we have two interests, the cattle i .dus- 20 try and the vemel industry, the latter dictating term) to which the former muHt submit. It is iMiwerletut Ut reHittt, for no other route is ojien, and the {)rincipal ntearnHhip lines coming to Montreal, and eng ged in cattle trade, >eing Hubsidi>ied by the Oovornmont, and enjoying other advantagen, are practically able to keep other veHHela, except an occasional tramp steamer, off thiH route. Thus the conditionH render thin monopoly possible, and it exists, and is exercising its arbitrary powers most tyrannically. With practically no competition in rates from Montreal, our cattle carried from Montreal at oxcessivu ratoH aru landed at Liverpool, on the same dock, by the side of American cattle carried at competitive rates from Boston, New York, &c. , Both bring the same price in the English market, but the American far- mer was paid more for Iiis cattle than was the Canadian farmer, because of the lower rates. Thus shipping cattle are worth more in the Buffalo than in the Toronto market. It now remains for the Canadian people to determine whether this condi- tion of affairs shall be allowed to continue. Shall steamship lines, some of them largely subsidized by the Canadian Government; and all enjoying the advantages of Canadian ports, harbors and waterways, upon which millions of Canadian money have been expended, be allowed of their own arbitrary motion to exact just such rates as they choose from the products of this Canadian industry V Or shall Parliament be called upon to intervene, as it has done in the case of railways and other powerful organizations, to protect the people from oppression ? In the unequal contest, the cattle dealers have struggled in vain against the powerful veasel combination, but are unable to break it. They now bring the matter before the public It directly concerns the Canadian farmer. If he is to be paid the fair value of his cattle, it must be possible to market them at reasonable rates, in fact as cheaply as his American rival does. But this question concerns more the Canadiai: farmer. The farmer in old Canada espet^ially is being obliged to change his mode of farming by feeding his grain instead of selling it. If the market for his cattle iH de- stroyed, what becomes of his industry ? Now, Sir, there are charges made by wen engaged in the cattle trade, who know what they are talking vbout. One of these is the president of the Dominion Live Stock Association. Sir GHARLEb HiBBERT TuppER. What is his name 1 Mr. Mulock. T. O. Robson. The next who signs his name to these charges is Thos. Crawford, vice-president of the Association, and it is also signed by Henry Bracken, John Dunn and A. J. Thompson. All of theae gentlemen are, or have been engaged at one time or an- other ..X this trade. It would not, perhaps, be fair to charge that all the decline in the cattle trade is due to these practices of the vessel representatives ; but from what those engaged in the trade have stated, I think it is fair to assume that the practices of the vessel representa- tives have had a very great deal to do with the decline, and I think I can very accurately remember a statement made by one of these gentle- men, when he wa? laying the grievances of the trade before the Gov- ernment a short time ago. The First Minister will, perhaps, remember what I am about to refer to, and will correct me if I am wrong. One of these gentlemen said somewhat as follows : — " Sir John, I may tell •;■' 21 you, that I speak as a long life supporter of your party. I have been engaged iu the cattle trade for many years, carrying on bu8inei>H largely in the city of Toronto, which was my headquarters for some years, but owing to the practices of the vessel owuers, I SAW MY COLLEAQUEB IN THE TEADK RUINED, and many of them who are not ruined, abandoning the trade for fear of losing what was left to them, and I determined before I lost all my money to cease to be a buyer and shipper tu England of Canadian cattle, so long as we buyers are ut the mercy of the carrying trade. He further said : I have been obliged to transfer my buying and selling operations across the line to Chicago, vliere I can get com- petitive rates, which I cannot get m Canada. My home is in Canada, my interest is in Canada, my people are living in Canada, but I AM COMPELLED TO TRANSFER MY BUSINESS TO THE STATES, because I refuse to imperil the rest of my fortune in the Canadian cattle trade until this state of afiairs is put an end t<3. And he said further : Unless this is put an end to, I prophesy that in five years the export of live cattle to England from Canada will be a thing of the past. That, Mr. Speaker, is the language of a man who knew what he was speaking about, a man who was well versed in the whole question, and who has suffered in connection with the Canadian trade. Now, Sir, if that is reliable evidence, and there is no doubt that it is, we must not stand idle and fold our arms and wait until this valuable trade is destroyed. , FEELING THE IMPORTANCE OP THIS MATTER, when I introduced the Bill, I was extremely soli<^itious that coming from a member of the (.'Opposition, no circumstances should arise which would in the slightest degree prejudice a fair consideration of the measure, and I was anxious that it should bring /rom the House the best opinions of the members from all sides, so that the case might be impartially dealt with without reference to party, but wholly in the interests of the trade, which I deem to be in the interests of the country. For that reason, at the introduction of the Bill, and from every stage until now, and now as well, I have 'ow, what has the country got in return for this? I am not going to dwell upon the lavish and luxurious style of education which prevails in the institution. It does seem an extraordinary thing for Canada that an education at the Royal Military College should have cost the students and the country combined no less a sum than $6,521 for a period of four years, or an average of over $1,600 a year, at least four times what it ought to cost, and what it does cost in the ordinary educational institutions of the country. BUT WHETHER IT IS A RICH MAN's SCHOOL OR A POOR MAN's SCHOOL, I ask what has th«? country got in return for the 1 95 graduates who have been the product of this institution at this expense t The return laid upon the Table of the House has given some information as to what has become of these 195 graduates ; but there has been an attempt made in this return *to minimize the failure of the college by including here and there cadets, and showing what has become of them. I sub- mit that the real test is to take the case of the graduates, and ascertain what they have been doing since they left the college. I cannot, at this moment, lay my hands upon the exact part of the return bearing on that point ; but, speaking from memory, I think it shows that some seventy-seven have obtained appointments in the Imperial service, and that of the balance, nine graduates and two cadets have been appointed ■. fmsmmamimaafs ^^mmm^^s^M^^ 29 '.•J to positions in the permanent corps, and two graduates to the Royal Military College staff. In other words, of all the graduates and under- graduates of the Military College from its commencement to this moment, \- BUT THIRTEEN IN ALL OCCUPY POSITIONS IN CONNECTION with the permanent corps. It is true, that of the graduates, some thirty in all have been appointed to positions in the departments ; and on this point I would dwell for one moment. I question whether the country will sanction a system of education such as this, if its end and aim is to educate the youth of the country in order to qualify them to fill ordinary civil positions in the public service. I doubt if there is a single branch of th-i public service that requires the existence of the Royal Military College in order to train men properly to discharge the work of any of these departments, i t is quite true, I have no doubt — it ought to be the case — that any graduate of the college who has re- ceived the education, military and civil, which they represent they are now giving, would make a most useful public servant, and be especially valuable in connection with our Public Works Department, or our Department of Railways and Canals. BUT THE QUESTION IS, WHETHER IT IS NECESSARY to have such a college to promote that sort of education, inasmuch as there are in the country other institutions specially engaged in doing that work, and doing it well. So that I do not think that it can be taken as an argument for the present management of the college that thirty of its graduates have been landed into comfortable positions for life in the civil service. I think it is going too far to pay $5,000 of public money to qualify a man to enter the civil service, there to be taken care of for years, and pensioned at the end of a few years, until he shuffles off this mortal coil. So I decline to test the utility of the college by any results which have been derived in connection with civil appointments. But, for the purpose of argument, I will give the House the full benefit of all such appointments, and see what the practical result of this mode of utilizing the graduates of the college has been. The Government return shows that of all the graduates and undergrad- uates from the commencement to this moment, but forty-three are en- gaged in the public service, military and civil. Eleven graduates are in the permanent corps ; two cadete are in the permanent corps, and thirty graduates are scattered through the departments at Ottawa and elsewhere — forty-three in all. It has cost to educate each of these forty- one graduates and two cadets, to the country and themselves, $29,577. If you deduct from that the contributiom by the students themselves, IT LEAVES A BALANCE OP $23,063 as the net cost for the education of each one of those men who are in the public service to day. If we throw out of the calculation the two 30 cadets — because I do not think that we can fairly test the utility of a college by pointing out what has become of the men who, for one reason or another, have refused to receive the education necessary to give them a degree — if we test it by reference to the forty -one graduates in the public service, we find that of these forty-one graduates, nine Have en- tered the permanent corps and two are in the military college, the remaining thirty having lucrative positions in the civil service. IT HAS COST IN ALL to educate each of these forty-one the sum of $31,014. Deduct the sum of $6,827, which is the contribution of each cadet towards his education, and you have, as the net cost to the country for the educa- tion of each one of these forty-one persons, no loss a sum than $24,187. I would like to know why we should, in ascertaining the good results flowing from this institution, credit it with the educating of thirty men for civil appointment here and elsewhere, inasmuch as that same educa- tion could have been perfectly well obtained in our various other educa- tional* institutions throughout the country, WITHOUT THE EXTRA COST OF ONE DOLLAR. Does any one say that the thirty graduates of this college who are in the civil service, could not have been as well fitted for that service if they had studied at their own homes or attended other colleges in their own provinces, without any cost whatever to the country except that incurred in maintaining local institutions 1 Therefore, it is reasonable — especially having regard to the fact that the only object of the estab- lishment of this institution was to prepare men for military appoint- ments or to prepare men to educate our militia — to conclude that THE ONLY FAIR TEST 18 TO ASCERTAIN what the country is obtaining in return for the [expenditure in the direction Parliament moved, when it sa ctioned the expenditure on this institution. P:irliament agreed thaii the object of this scheme was to furnish men with a scientific military education for the benefit of the Canadian militia. And the question now is, how far has that ob- ject been attained by this vast expenditure of public money to which I have referred. I want to give full credit to the school, and assuming that the thirteen military men, eleven graduates and two cadets, now engaged in connection with the militia of Canada, are highly educated, possess all the military education and skill that the school could most successfully impart —giving credit to the institution for having edu- cated these thirteen people to the highest degree, I find that THE TOTAL COST OF THE EDUCATION OF THESE MEN AMOUNTS PER HEAD T» $87,816, from which we must deduct the contribution of these students, as I have done in the other cases, amounting to $21,532. Or, in other \ -■I S SI 31 -, r /> words, these thirteen men, now in the publie service, have cost the Dominion $76,283 each for the education given them. But I must eliminate also from the list two of these thirteen, who never acquired the education that the Act contemplated, who did attend the college, but left, either because they failed to pass the examinations, or because, for other reasons, did not choose to pursue their studies. Therefore, the sum total of the whole transaction is this, that since the college was established for the purpose of imparting military education in connection with the Canadian militia, there have been appointed, a.c- cording to the spirit of the Act, eleven men and no more. So that the actual result of the college has been that Hleven g^raduates have been appointed to military positions in Canada at a cost per capita of $116,600, and deducting from that the amount realized by the college in fees, namely, the sum of $25,427, we have this net result, ^^y i THAT IT HAS COST $90,153 FOR EACH ONE OF THE ELEVEN n^ADUATES now filling any position, as contemplated by the Act, in connection with the militia of Canada. And that is not due to the fact that there have not been vacancies in the Militia Department. But during the period I have referred to, the department has systematically ignor- , ed the graduates and made the appointments solely for political reasons. The Government have utilized largely the college in order to furnish them with extra political patronage, ignoring the interests of the militia and the object of Parliament. I will read a paragraph from a letter sent me, and the hon. Minister will know how far it is correct. I know nothing of the facts myself, but speaking of the policy of the Govern- ment, the writer says : » The practice is to appoint gentlemen with political influence, without any qualifications, and then allow them to take a course of only three months in their own schools and a further course of three months attending lectures ab the Royal Military College at Kingston If that is considered sufficient edu- cation for the officers of the permanent corps, it is difficult to see the utility of maintaining the Royal Military College and having cadets spending years acquiring that knowledge which the Government does not utilise after they have graduated. I need not point out to you that the amount of military knowledge obtained in this three months' course at Kingston is necessarily very elementary. The previous course at their own schools consists but of drill, etc., and of course none of the higher branches of the profession. The regulations restricting commissions in the permanent corps, is apparently held out as an inducement to young men to go to the college, under the belief that the Government will give them the preference fdr commissions in the permanent corps, and it is unfair that they should be ignored. At the pre- sent moment — I call the attention of the Minister of Militia to the statement, made ia March last, the date of the letter, I do not know whether it is correct or not : 32 At the present moment there are two offioen of the permanent cavalry at Winnipeg, one appointed in 1882 and the other in 1886, taking hii elementary courae at KinuBton. These officers are away from their duty m inatruotora at the cavalry achool at Winnipeg, and should be officers competent to give that instruction. Again, the graduates of the college do not attach themselves to military corps at the cantps of instruction, etc. , because they would have over them permanent corps officers who know very little of their profession. There was recently a vacancy in the Militia Department, of assistant to the militia architect, and it was naturally supposed that novae graduate possessing scientific knowledge of military engikieering would have been appointed, but, in place of this, a young man was appointed who does not possess any military education or training. Now, Sir, I happened to read a reference to the very policy of the Government in the report of the college laid upon the Table last session. But in connection with what I stated a moment ago as to the object of the Act having been disregarded, and a general education being now apparently one of the main objects of the College, I will again emphasiie that statement by quoting from the report of the commandant of the school to the Gov- ernment, which is found in the report of the Department of Militia for the year 1891-92. Speaking of education, it says : But f L^tunately the status of Canada, as a part of the Empire, has made it fitting and wise to modify the system of instruction followed at the Royal Military College, so that while the military demands of the country upon it may be duly supplied, its cadets are trained to take their place amongst their fellow-countrymen, as highly and technically trained gentlemen, m most practical professions, and in a large measure prepared to enter the learned professions. It certainly shows the progress made in disregarding the intention of Parliament when the school itself, in a public report, can openly an- nounce that it is totally disregarding the main object which justified its establishment, that it is practically a training school for the learned professions. The report goes on to say : We sincerely hope that the time is not far distant when the Government may feel themselves justified in giving full eflFect to their Order in Council, of a date certainly prior to 1882, in which it is declared that so soon as there are a sufficient number of eligible graduates, appointment to permanent militia corps will be made solely from this list. In 1878 that pledge was given, and upon that pledge the 195 men that I have referred to, entered that college and pursued an undergraduate career. It goes to say : And after sufficient length of service and rank has been obtained by graduates, permanent militia officers will be filled therefrom. The pledge was given to the country in 1878, a pledge which has found its place in the public records, and yet it has never been lived up to. The report goes on to say : If untrained gentlemen are better qualified than the technically trained military graduates of this college, to officer the Canadian permanent corps. 88 then indeed, it must be admitted that— for military purpoiea — the school is at present superfluouB. I need not comment upon that statement, it is made by the command- ant of the school. Now, what do I find as showing the effect of this departure from and disregard of the object of the Act ? In the report of the college laid upon the Table this session, the commandant, report- ing to the Minister of Militia in reference to the school, says : Recently as the college has been established, and limited as is the acoom- modation it affords — turning out from ten to fifteen graduates a year — its students are to be found in the church, practising law, medicine, agriculture and civil engineering, engaged in commerce, railway maimgement, and in private and public companies, employed in postal departments, in ordnance factories, in the Dominion Oustoms Department, the Geoloffical Department, the Marine and Fisheries Department, and serving in the l^rth-west Mount- ed Police force, in British Colonial employment, in the Canadian permanent militia and in Her Majesty's regular forces. And no doubt they will be found in the various walks of lif ) so long as the system is maintained of conducting this school as an ordinary high school or university, instead of confining its operations to the pur- poses for which it was established ; and so long as that takes place, so long will you have to maintain an enormous staff such as this, until the people in indignation decide to abolish the school altogether. I can understand how the hon. gentleman can, in a spirit of boasting, point to the glory reaped by Canada from having a military school where young Canadians can be trained and graduated into the Imperial army. But, Sir, don't you think that if that was the only object of the mainten- ance of the school, it would have been better to have allowed these seventy- seven men to take their military training in some of the old-established schools of England 1 Surely we are not, in this age, going to maintain a military college in Canada, which, in eighteen years, sends seventy- seven officers to the Imperial army and eleven to the Canadian forces. I submit, therefore, that the Government is censurable in the highest degree for their perversion of the object of this school, and unless they recede at an early moment from this false position, and comply with the spirit of the Act, by reducing the staff, and by altering the course of study so as to limit it strictly to the kind Ol study intended by the Act, the course of public opinion, I think, will demand a more radical treatment of the whole question Was it part of the intent of Parlia- ment at the time that this should be a school receiving young men with the merest rudiments of education, that they should be taken in hand, as in high schools and in colleges, and taught English history, French and German, and the ordinary subjects to be found in the curriculum of every one of our provincial teaching institutes ! Sir, that was not the object of the establishment of this school ; and I impress upon the Minister now that he ought at the earliest possible moment to thin out the staff and bring back tie expenditure strictly to what is necessary in order to maintain that school, or else assume the responsibility of an indignant community demanding its early abolition. , e