REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS AT ••■4i the rest of his days. He would say this — that he had worked with their excellent Chairman for a number of years, and he never worked with more harmony with any individual in the Christian Church. As business men they should look at this question from a business point of view, and excersise the same judgment, prudence, and forethought in the management of God's work as business men did in the prosecution of their lawful callings. In his own little town of Bowmanville they had eight or nine different churches, three being of the Methodist type. The Primitive Methodist one was the smallest of the three. The United Methodist Church was a large attractive church of itself, and included some of the most influential persons in the town. It had a prestige and an influence upon the society in the place which the Primitive Methodists did not possess, and this gave it a certain in- fluence which they (the Primitive Methodists) could not expect to possess. He did not care how able or successful a man might be in other spheres, in the place he refered to all his endeavours were, to a certain extent, circumscribed and unsuccessful, because he laboured at great disadvantage, the other denominations having a prestige and influence upon society which the Primitive Methodists did not possess, nor was it ever likely they would possess under similar circumstances. They had three men labouring at this place doing the work of one man. This was not a solitary instance, 74 for there were a great many cases where energy and money were being expended merely to support denom inationalism. Their duty was to expend God's money in the best possible way. It would be far better for them to husband the means at their disposal, and labour to promote God's glory by economy, pmdence, and proper judgment. They would remember that their good Brother Middleton asked the question whether the hand of Providence was in connection with the institution of the Primitive Methodist denomination. He (the speaker) maintained that the hand of Providence had been in connection with Primitive Metho- dism from its inception. The denomination had done a separate and distinct work — the work which, he believed, the Almighty designed them to do. But he would ask the good Brother there when had they done a work which other denominations had left undone ? Were they to-day doing any kind of work which the other parts of the Methodist family were not doing ? If they were, let them remain as , they were. But in this country they had none of those low masses of society to which they were devoting their energies, whilst other denominations were not doing so. In the old country things were very different, for there the denomination dealt with the neglected masses of society. Let them go and do God's work and God's bidding with all their hearts, and remember that it was not by might nor by power, but by the Lord's Spirit that success came, and if they did this God would bless them abundantly, whether they laboured in connection with the United Methodists or remained as they were. Bro. Thomas Griffith said, he fHt as one Christian did, who some time ago said, " I love the Church that keeps the Bible above the Church : and he (the speaker) loved their Christianity, he loved their Primitive Methodism, but he loved Christianity which kept Christianity above any ism whatsoever. It had been stated by one that when he is dissatisfied " he will take his hat and go." Now, the • aged ministers who had spent thirty or forty years to enlarge and build up their Church, thought, that union was desirable, if they could get a proper basis. There was another taunt thrown out that morning. One said that it was " kind of mean " that they who were the paid servants of the Connexion should talk about union matters. (A voice — " Is that the question, Mr. Chairman ?") He had a perfect right to refer to this question, and motives should not be impunged to brethren because they differed in sentiment, and he would scorn and hold in derision such an idea, coming from whatever source it might. He held they had a perfect right as individuals to consider which was best for them as ministers and best for the Church of God. It was their duty to God, to the Church, and to the world to advance those interests, being guided in so doing, by the direction and aid of their Heavenly Father. One had asked whether there was a providence about the birth of their connexion. 75 Perhaps there was a providence about that man's birth as well (laughter), but now he had got married. (Renewed laughter.) Was there any providence about that? He was not born married, and the gentlemen might consider there was just as much providence about his marriage as his birth. * A voice — (" Question.") He didn't question it at all. He had better faith in Mrs. Middleton than that (Loud laughter.) Had they any warrant for saying that if they wanted the Methodist forces of this land, the hand of Providence would be taken away ! However, he wished to refer them to the fact, that there were places in their work, where however earnestly and devotedly they laboured for the Master, it was impossible for them to succeed, but at the expense of, or inflcting injury upon other Churches in the community. There was a man came to one of the Missionary Committees the other day and said, " We are going to have a splendid cause up here ; the Methodists have got at loggerheads, the Episco- palians are just as bad, and there are about twenty or thirty coming over to my Church." (Laughter.) He was in the hope that he was going to build up Primitive Methodism, but there was not the material in the community — except the man gathered it from the other Methodist communities. In such cases they were not doing the Lord's work, but tearing down the walls of Zion in order that they might build up then- own. They would remember, that on the previous night, one of the speakers stated that there were six or seven ministers to contend against in some places, and he could not succeed equally with these men, owing to certain circumstances in the great work of advancing the Redeemer's kingdom. He was going to say that in some cases they appeared to be labouring as it were against others, and instead of going on in the great work of evangelizing the world for Christ, they were contending over small and minor matters, and sowing dissensions in their own bosoms, and in the Church of the living God. Bro. Pattison was not opposed to the speaker's observations, but he was thinking he was away from the mark. Bro. Griffith maintained that he was speaking of the develop- ment of the work. When he was in Brantford, the denomination had a Httle church which was stuck between two taverns. There was scarcely a week in which he did not spend the half or most of every day in visiting, and when he had got people to come to church, been made the instrument of their conversion, and got prepared to join the church, they would very often join the other churches, and hundreds went by their door to the large church, where they could hear the Gospel preached as well and better than he could preach it — where they could have all the advantages of Methodism and Me- thodist life as well as they could have them in connection with the Primitive Methodists. They were thankful that in Toronto they had added about loo members, but one of the brethren in the Confer- »• 6 ence had said 270 had joined his church in the same period. He was confident that friend had not worked any more faithfully than he had, and why was it that he had a better opportunity ? It was that he ministered to 400 or 500 while his friend preached to 1,000 or 1,200 people ; and was it not likely that with such a large congrega- tion he could accomplish more good than the man who preached 10 twenty, thirty, fifty, or even 400 or 500 people. He thought these matters were worthy of their consideration. Would they lose them- selves if they should form a union ? Did the waters become lost altogether or lose their power to bless the world when they flowed into some large river? If four or five of their merchants were to amalgamate, would they become non-productive because they had constituted themselves into a very large and wealthy firm ? It seemed to him that unity gave strength. In fact, their business men had found this out, and had decided that it was advisable to say Mr. So & So & Co. ; and he thought it would be just so in the Church of Christ, if they had a united Methodism. He held that in all the great essentials Methodism was one, though certainly there were many matters which had been brought forward that day which were worthy of their consideration. If the Methodism of Canada could find an equitable basis, such as the various denominations could act upon, then he thought Methodism would be more efficient, more able to go forth and evangelize the world, and present an unbroken front in prosecuting the interests of the Redeemer's kingdom. There were many places which might be specified where they were working across one another's track. Their excellent friend Bro. Boyle, when working at Bowmanville, was in the same position. He was sure any minister who went to preach to a people would do so better and feel more encouraged to work if he found a fair congregation, than if he had to go and hammer away to a few. He thought that, looking upon these matters, and considering their general responsibility, if they could see their way clear to a united Methodism for Canada, it was their duty to carefully consider the question, as he believed it would enable them to extend their borders to the far off lands be- yond. This object, he thought, could be achieved if the Methodists of Canada could see their way to become united, and be one not only in sentiment and spirit but in outward form, in outward law, and in all the operations of the Church of Christ. He hoped that in all their discussions they would preserve the best of Christian feeling, so that their proceedings might be directed to the divine glory of the God of the race. With these wishes he would take his seat. Bro. MiDDLETON rose and said he did not wish to make a speech, but would confine himself to an explanation. He did not state as Bro. Griffith had assumed, that those opposed to him (Bro. Griffith) had prayed more earnestly than he had. What he said was ** if they had given the matter as much earnest prayer." He did not consider It that in his remarks he cast any reflection upon any person. He thought that Bro. Griffith would decidedly object to being anything he did not desire. The CHAIRMAN' said there was one thing that he should like Bro. Griffith to refer to again. He considered that Bro. Griffith and all the ministers were implicated in it. Bro. Griffith implicated a brother who was building a new church, and hoping through disaffection in the other churches to get a good many members — there- fore he (Bro. Griffith) said they were pulling down to build up. He did not think that was the characteristic of any minister, and he considered that if any such observation went forth to the world it would cast a reflection upon their ministers. He was sure the gentle- men referred to had no wish to do this. Bro. Griffith said he might state that the person to whom he referred was not a minister in full standing with the denomination, and he had to call him to task in commenting about the matter. He (the speaker) corrected the thing the moment he heard of it, but the fact was that the probablities in reference to the conduct of the gentlemen referred to were that if he built up a church he would have to depend upon such circumstances as those which had been mentioned. He believed it to be the disposition of their churches not to ask any person to join them who was connected with another church. Bro. Bee said the man to whom Bro. Griffith referred had not been a minister in their body, and was not to-day with them at all. A station was without a preacher, a man offered himself to them that they knew nothing about ; the person was well recommended to them by Dr. Punshon and others as having been a local preacher in the Methodist denomination ; and acting upon such recommendations they had engaged the man hoping he would be successful. He felt grieved that Bro. Griffith should have referred to this, knowing the man's standing. They had been thoroughly deceived in the man, and how it came that Dr. Punshon had recommended him he did not know. Bro. Crompton thought it was a great pity to refer to matters of an exceptional character, whether they had reference to individuals, places or appointments. There were scores of places in the old country where Primitive Methodist preachers went and held services, and where the good work of God had obtained considerable success, and in the very same places there were Wesleyan societies. He might also say that there were scores of places in the old country where, probably, one minister could suit both societies and the neighbourhood, so far as holding services was concerned. He would, however, admit that they were in very different circumstances in this coun*:ry from what they were in the old country in that respect. It had been said that they might unite if they could get a 78 liberal basis. Oh ! there was a vast deal included in that word // Was it considered a liberal basis ? He should certainly be prepared to make some concessions. (Loud laughter.) Now they did not need to burst out in that way. (Renewed laughter,) He considered such conduct was bad if they were guilty of it once, and they had made a breach in their manners in that way several times. By such interruptions they drove one off his track and did the speaker harm. They deserved their heads " rapped " if they only got what they deserved, but if he had to inflict the punishment he believed he would not hurt them much. Again referring to the proposed basis he said he should be prepared to make some concessions in this respect — not to have two laymen for one minister. If it were possible to re-make their constitution without breaking up the Methodist connection, and if he could have a voice in the Home Conference, he should give that voice on the side he had mentioned. He should also be prepared as there was no great principle involved in the matter, to say that the superintendent minij::er might be ex officio the chairman of all the official boards, but there was no great principle involved in it. He did not know that he should be willing to say that the superintendent minister should have the power of nominating all the lay officers within the range of his Church. He should hardly be prepared to make the concession that courts of the denomination should be made up of one class of men, even if they were composed of men of equal shrewdness, ability, business tact and forethought, as some men he might name, — not even if they were all Robert Walkcs. No, nor did he think that it was right to concede that the new Conferences should all be made up even of men like Robert Crompton, James Edgar, Robert Boyle, or Bro. Griffith. He considered there was scope in the old land which they did not possess here. As he had said, however, he could not resist the logic of facts, for he knew they were cramped, and he felt himself straightened and his hands tied in certain locali- ties. But the Wesleyan body in the days of its commencement was straightened in many respects. He thought their people were not prepared to go into this matter unless there was a more liberal basis, or that they had, in fact, the lay element introduced into all their Church courts. If they attempted to drag the people he thought they would be unsuccessful. These were his ** forecastings " of thought, his " prospective probabilities," in regard to the case. Did not they think the denominations were in very critical circumstances, taking for granted the desirability of union, and allowing their union brethren the full scope of their views on the subject He certainly considered they were in peculiar circumstances considering the fact that there could not be an addition to the basis until three years from next summer had passed. It was stated by Bro. Goodman that morning that half of their ministers were union men, but he (the speaker) knew several stations where they could not find four union men. He wished to be allowed to say that he had not the slightest objection to the advance of salaries which took place last Conference, if they as a people could pay them, but would not they be in a very anomalous position to go to England and ask for several additional hundred pounds, for even the extra grant that was made to them a few winters ago was to a very large extent absorbed. Did they not consider that they were placed in a very peculiar position if they were to continue as a distinct body in this country ? That morning Bro. Goodman had very clearly and distinctly referred to this matter, and, on the whole, he had enjoyed the observations made by that gentleman. Let them now look at their condition if they continued as a united Primitive Methodist Church and did their work. No doubt they had missed their way, and for some fifteen years he had thought this and given his opinion on the matter. In regard to their missions he considered that one important desideratum was to have some official brother visiting their mission stations, because they had a great number of inexperienced men to whom the stations were committed, and those who should speak did not hke to say anything for fear of offending the minister. Many mistakes which had been made prominent in the discussions proved, to his mind, the necessity of having such a visitor who might call the brethren together so that they might look at the prospects of matters which surrounded them, and to help the committee in working the stations to better effect. To a great extent they wanted a reconstruction of their work. There might be causes which at present appeared to be languishing which could be worked to advantage, and though he said this he knew he had a very strong objection to commencing a cause, carrying it on for a while, and then giving it up. He believed there was a place called Co!lingwood station — Napanee, Caradoc station — and this place ought to be reconstructed, and not money spent upon it to such an extent as had been the case in the past. If they employed an experienced brother to go about and discuss matters in a brotherly kind of way with the brethren in such stations, he felt sure they might avoid many of the mistakes which had been made in the past. He should like to say something in reference to their monetary condition, for he saw a great difficulty in this respect. Could they, as a denomination, carry on their work as their circumstances were at present, there was not an individual who would be readier than himself to say "go on," but he thought his forecastings of thought were about right, and he saw no possibility of continuing their work, for they must remember that their highest allowances were ;£'45 a year more than the highest allowances of the English ministers — $650. Suppose a brother had four children then he was allowed another 80 $Too and rent, ** and all that." How could they possibly carry on the stations which had about $ioo ordinary income? If they were to proceed let them reconstruct and do their best, acting with as much judiciousness and prudence as possible, looking for the Divine direction. Let them pursue this course with all the zeal and energy which they could throw into the good work. If Providence in the future opened the way for the Primitive Methodist denomination to cease existence as a sect, they would, of course, have to submit to what appeared to be God's dispensations. (Cheers.) Bro. McLean said the Wesleyan Church voted against the principle of lay delegation, unless on the condition that they could have union with it. The question of our Church as the child of Providence, had come up. It appeared that Dr. Crompton would go to work if he had the whole thing to do again, and he would cut a piece off here, and another there, and have the patient put through such a process, that at the end he would not even know it himself. Dr. Crompton said if he had the power with this child of Providence, he would at once cut off half the power of the laymen. (Laughter, and Cheers.) A voice : — (It was born then.) If the child was born, then it was born with a leg too many, and so the child was a malformation ; it required the doctor to cut off" a limb, and Dr. Crompton said he would have done it. [Dr. Crompton. — There was nothing perfect.] That was just what he held, and this was one of the reasons why he had ever identified himself with this matter of Methodist union. Whilst he was quite in accord with a great deal that Dr. Crompton had said as to the adaptability of their work, and the difference of the work in English society, with its great ramifications of classes, still he questioned whether our church had not accomplished all that it ever could do in this Canada of ours. He called attention to the willingness of the Methodist Church to concede anything, in order that their Primitive brethren might be gathered in. What said the Rev. Dr. Douglass ? Brethren would remember that when Dr. Douglass gave notice of a motion to change the name of his denomi- nation, he said they did it in deference to the other Methodist bodies, and more especially to their Primitive Methodist friends. They, (the Wesleyan Methodists.) were willing to give up the name, if they could effect the union. Did any brother mean to tell him, that the name WeLleyan, was not as dear to that body, as the name Primitive is to us. There were many old men in the place, who, when Dr. Douglass spoke, hung their heads and said, *' The glory is departed." The first division which ever took place in the Methodist family, took place on the Continent of America, and the first healing of the breach has taken place he^e. As the first separation took place in this country, so it was a grand thing, that the example of union was being set to the old world. He did not think the Conference in the old world would be so unwise as to ignore this movement, but he 81 believed it would have a due effect upon them,by and by. But the question was, whether they were justified in expending their means and energies in the prosecution of their denominational work. He had carefully, garnered up what had been said there, and he had utterly failed to find a brother who had justified, in the light of the facts which had come out, the large expenditure of money which had been going on. He found that nearly every speaker who had spoken on the question, had deplored that in various points of their work there had been so much money expended. The question of justification for the course they were adopting, in the light of the facts with which they were acquainted, came to them as a church. He knew they had often heard the trite assertion, that Corporations had no souls. Was it a fact that the church had no soul, or no conscience ? He did not believe this, but he believed the Church had a conscience, and that it was waking up to the fact that it was not an ism put into their hands to further, but it was the salvation of men with which they had to do. One brother said, " I was born in the church, I am a child of the church, I have been raised by it." He (the speaker) admired all that, and some of those who said these things were of opinion that because they had been thus brought up they must shut their eyes. He thanked God that Father Crompton did not do this, but said he could not shut his eyes to the logic of facts. He wished every brother to weigh the circumstances in which this stem logic placed them. The question came to them, what were they go- ing to do ? Were they going to continue thus ? He was satisfied they were not, and he requested them to take this question to a throne of grace. They talked about prayer, the Holy Spirit, and the light of truth — let them take the question and lay it before God, and when they had done this and were confident they were right, in the name of God let them go on. But there was another point — were they justified in this large expenditure of energy. He did not think they were, or that they had a right to assume the responsibility of sending men into localities where they knew they could not suc- ceed, where there was no room for them. Allusion had been made by one brother to Manitoba. They admitted that Manitoba was an enormous stretch of territory, and that it would take a long time to populate it. If they had the money he would say, " send the men." Just let me call your attention to a certain fact. He remembered the time when letters appeared in our Journal stating that numbers of people in Manitoba were starving for Primitive Methodist bread. They knew " the bread " had gone to these people, and how many members had been gathered, including the minister and his wife? Just seven. He maintained that it was a grand mistake to be carried away with this kind of thing — it was a grievous thing to send a man to such a place to toil, and for what ? He supposed it was quite possible that in the years to come good might result from their labours 82 — he was not going to say the money was thrown away. He sup- posed that the enthusiasm of the Conference prompted the desire to extend our work, and this is the result ; but the question to consider was, were they justified in sending their young men to places where their energies and spirits were broken down ? Father Crompton said he had frequently felt himself trammelled and hedged round. Did they think the denomination was going to find men for this ? He believed that if the cause of God — not Primitive Methodism — de- manded it, there was as many men as ever ready to offer themselves on the altar of the Church, (hear, hear), but it was one thing to be willing to offer themselves for an ism. The next point which he wished to call their attention to was the question of material. He desired to say that he could not speak on this matter from an old country Methodist Sictndpoint, for he had never been trained in it, ai^d he did not know that he ever heard more than one — certainly not more than two — Methodist ministers before he came to this coun- try. But he knew something about Canada ; and he should like to relate a circumstance which had left an impression upon him that had never faded from his mind. Most of them very well remembered their dear lamented friend Thomas Thompson. He happened to be in the store belonging to that gentleman some sixteen years ago, and he (the speaker) was very much struck with the opinions expressed by brethren, who seemed to think agitation for union had only come up a year or two ago. Whilst in Mr. Thompson's store there hap- pened to be a gentleman who was discoursing . on Methodism with Mr. Thompson. The gentleman to whom he referred gave ut- terance to the following sentiment: — "There is not a bit of use, there is not room for so many Methodist bodies in Canada." Bro- ther Thompson brought out the words, " We are the child of Provi- dence," and he said, " I will tell you, it is not a bit of use. I think you have a special work in the old land, but you have not the material to work on here. I am satisfied that God raised you up, as I am satisfied that God raises up men and churches everywhere." He (the stranger) drew a small line, which he made the centre, and said, " All the light up to the sixteenth century was limited and confined in a small focus ; and God in his own good time raised up the early Reformers, and, as a result, the circle widened. But the light shone out from this circle only so far, until coming down almost to our own times, God raised up John Wesley, and he carried the light of truth outside ot this circle, and the light was more widely diftused ; but it only reached two or three classes. Then God, in His own good time, raised up the good founder of the Primitive Methodists, and enabled him to carry the light out to the very outer circle, and He has wonderfully blessed your labours in the old land; but, the gentleman said, "you have not got that outer circle in this land. What is the distinctive feature between yourselves and the other Methodist bodies ?" He (the speaker) was not a Methodist at the time, but a casual listener to it r yet the conversation had indelibly impressed itself on his mind. He was •there to ask that day what was the distinctive material which they as a denomination had to work upon ? This question had not been answered by any one. They had to work upon the same material as their brethren. The fact was that, whilst they had great reason to thank God for what He had done through their instrumentality — and he was not there to say God had not done great things fo»* them — this he thoroughly believed. Yet God worked through enlightened judgment, and He had never worked in any other way, and He expected them to open their eyes, and see what He had given them to do. Of course he knew there were brethren who were prepared to say to him, " You have so pledged yourself to this question." Certainly he had done so, but only in the light of honest conviction, in the light of the logic of facts that were taking place around him. What had he to gain by Methodist union? Did they not think he could live as well in the affection and esteem of these my brethren, in the Primitive Methodist Church as anywhere else ? Yes ; and a great deal better. He had sat down to look at this question from his own personal standpoint, and he did not consider it was egotism in him to say that he could aspire to as good a position in this denomination as he should ever be able to reach in a larger body. There were thousands of men in a larger denomination with far more ability, far higher social position, and far larger means, by whom he should be overshadowed ; whereas with them, his' own denomination, he could take a good enough position. Although he had nothing to gain personally, he could not shut his eyes to the fact, that the honour and glory of God were at stake in this matter. Should they go on perpetuating mistakes because they happened to have so started? The brethren who were in favour of the denomination continuing to have a separate existence were, neverthe- less, in favor of great changes being made. Another reason why he considered they should not continue their operations as a separate denomination was, that they had no right to be any longer paupers upon England. He used a sharp word, but at the same time he must remark that if the friends in England had not possessed the Canadian Mission they would not have obtained so large revenues as they had. He considered the obligation which the Conference in England had discharged had been their duty — a duty which they had cheerfully performed. He certainly admired the spirit in which the friends in England had performed their part. But to think of us sending men to the old world to say, " Get your feet on Canadian soil, and you will find room and plenty of work," and still go with hat in hand for assistance in this work on the ground that we could not do it alone. Then there was the great fear which some of the brethren 84 had about the expose of the affairs of the denomination. One speaker had said that if a gentleman was going to enter into partnership he would not allow persons to come in and examine all his affairs. He hoped they would at once put away this idea, for the large Church with which they were talking of uniting knew their position exactly. His only anxiety personally was that their own people might trulysee the condition of the denomination. If this union were to be accom- plished at all it would be by mutual concessions ; and he was free to confess that if they could see their own way in the matter, he was bitterly opposed to anything that would induce a split or schism in their body. Let them be willing to wait and labour for the desired consummation, and to go on until most of them were thoroughly satisfied as to the desirability of the change. At the same tiiae do not let them permit of the idea that because he dared to speak his honest convictions he was disloyal. The day he had to give up his manhood that day he ceased to be a member of the Church. Of course the remark as to eating " Primitive Methodist bread" did not and could not apply to him in the same manner as it might seemingly to some. Think of it, shade of Hugh Bourne ! If that blessed man were to come down and hear it said, we dare not give utterance to our opinions without the brand of disloyalty. He could fancy him saying to you, '* Shame on you, my children.'' They had all done the best they could, and the best of men and the best of women could not do any more. (Laughter.) Bro. Bee should be very sorry for an impression to go abroad that he conveyed a wrong idea in reference to the vote of the Wesleyan Methodist Church in favour of lay representation. Instead of his views being altered by those speakers he must say he was confirmed in the statements he had made. They would remember that when he spoke on the subject a statement had been made by a previous speaker that the Wesleyan Methodist Church had made concessions for the purpose of accomplishing union, and he said they had made this concession in accordance with the strong current setting in throughout the world in favour of lay representation. The words did not exactly express the thought he had supposed they did. On the second question expressing willingness to admit lay representation as a means of promoting union, the number of quarterly meetings voting was 132 (in favour) ; and there were 50 against. This was the vote in favour of lay delegation on purpose to promote union , but the other question which it seemed to him was intended to ask the Wesleyan Methodist Church if they desired lay representation independently of promoting union, the number of quarterly meetings voting was 187. It was true there were a much larjer number of nays than in the other case, but they would observe that a much larger number voted m favour of lay delegation, independently of the question of union. The grant of lay delegation was in con- 85 sequence of the demand for it. As to the statement of Bro. McLean, he might say that he could go to Reach and passing on from that point find just as good material to work on as there, and the advance- ment made by these stations proved that there had been material, and that the material had been laid hold of. He would some morn- ing take Mr. McLean along Stanley St. instead of the more respectable road they usually went, and see if they could not find some material that could not be laid hold of Personally, he believed there was material enough in Toronto if they wanted to go down low enough ; though some of them said there was none of it. He wished there was no such material. A brother had referred to Manitoba. He would admit that was not a very encouraging position ; it must be granted that their missionary had a very trying position in having only a hall to preach in. He would refer the brother to whose speech he allud- ed to Montreal, where in a little over four months twenty members had been gathered into society, and where there was now a congre- gation of about sixty in the evening, although it ,vas apparently a very unlikely place to take hold of, the person in charge of it was succeeding now ; at the end of four months there were $50 quarterly income. Let them place this over the darker picture (hear hear). He confessed that he was a little surprised at the remarks of his good friend Bro. McLean in reference to this " child of providence." He must admit his good brother made him feel almost very queer by the flippant manner in which that divine subject was treated. He confessed that he did not look for this from Bro. McLean. He looked on the Christian religion as being a providential thing, in the Reformation by Luther as being a providential thing, in the Reforma- tion under Wesley as being indeed a divine thing — a providential child. He looked upon Primitive Methodism as being equally a child of providence with any of the reformations to which he had referred ; and he considered that as such a child Bro. McLean should not have spoken lightly of it, so as to bring it into contempt. Certainly he did not think it was Bro. McLean's wish to do this, but still the manner in which the subject was treated was calculated to make some feel as if it was only a matter for contempt after all. Laymen had been referred to in this matter, and it had been said by his good friend Bro. Crompton that if it depended solely upon his own vote whether it should be one or two laymen he should say their founders did the right thing, and if he had a thousand votes he would give them all for the matter being as it was. (Cheers). There had been a reference made to congregations and to members. One of the speakers had said that a thousand might have attention^ but he had only 400, and he had no chance to work ! He could only wish they had many more congregations of 400. He said we have stations that are succeeding. What was Chatham to-day. It was likely to become a self-sustaining circuit — one of 6 86 their best mission stations, doing well in every respect. He believed there was a great deal in the idea that if they went to a place believing there was nothing to work on and that they could do nothing, they would do nothing. He had known cases where they had had stations standing still, and men had said '* I cannot work — I have no chance," and other men had gone believing they could work and succeeded, and they had done so. The very place where his good Brother Hughen was, and had been for four year, had had the same thing said about it, and what did he say about it ? — that he was succeeding and would succeed, for he believed in success, and worked for it, though he took a different view of things than he (the speaker) did. He expected that gather- ing would have thrown out many new ideas, but he confessed that he did not think it had done so. It had been asked what would the sainted Clowes and Bourne say to their dear children if they were there ? He supposed the persons assembled there would say "** Carrying on the work you began." It had been argued that these men would find fauH with them ; let these men come and speak to them and they would show them that they were not doing a wrong work. It had been said they should use their talents right. Well he thought if he had only one talent he had been using it as well as he could, and had never yet felt convinced that he could use it in a much better place. A great deal had been made out of the issues, as if Primitive Methodism were the only issue in the world — as if in gaining another society they would not be going to an ism. It would be an ism if they joined the larger church. This, however, consoled him that in giving their money to sustain their own ism God's glory was in it and the salvation of souls was in it ; and this prompted him to give what little he had to bestow. After listening two days to this discussion he had not yet found the jumping off place, and he was as much prepared to stand on his platform as when he first came to the country • he could not help it. Some thought he had got the shutters up and meant to have them taken down. He stood on a certain platform, and there he should continue to stand until his judgment was convinced. He did so because he couldnot do otherwise — he must bow to the dictates of his judgment and conscience, for the matter was one of conscience with him. He questioned, whether it would be proper for them to go into union, even if they had a proper basis ; he questioned this, and he had done so for 19 years. He did not beUeve that Methodism would be improved by their going into union. He believed that the Methodist ■Church was larger to day, and fuller of life than it ever would have been, had Primitive Methodists never existed. He thought there were Wesleyans in England to day, who would acknowledge that they owed much to Primitive Methodism, and that had 100,000 members been given to them, and the Primitive Methodist Church not existed 87 alongside of them, they would not have been as well as they are now, owing to having a. potent influence by their side. He believed there was cause for bome fear if they decided to go into union. He admitted with others who had spoken before him, that there were certain respects in which union might appear to be an advantage ; he could not deny the fact, that the ministers might have shorter journeys and better salaries. What did they read history for, if it was not to learn the lessons it was capable of imparting ; what was the lesson from the fact that there was but once one Methodist Church — and he said this with no disrespect, for he did not want to be thought to throw disrespect on any body of people, he would rather that his right hand should be severed — but they could not close their eyes to the facts, and it was generally admitted that at the time to which he referred, Methodism was sunken spiritually ; its power was waning to some extent. The very fact that the Methodist body of that day set themselves against the zealous evangelistic labours of men like Clowes and Bourne was evidence sufficient. It was said to- day that the Conference should not be charged with the responsibi- lity of that ; he was sorry to say that the minutes of the Church told another story. [A voice : Did Mr. Clowes ever appeal.] There was no need of Mr. Clowes appealing. The superintendent who severed those men from the connection — and this was a telling truth and to his mind a deplorable fact and clear proof that there was a sinking. Had God not done something — that something being the raising up of a Primitive Methodist denomination — he did not know, nor did any other man know, what would have been the result. Others were raised up by God and did a work that was likely to have remained undone, and might have been undone to-day but for that. He referred to these things in order that he might bring out another fact. Let them have one Methodist Church and let it be as large and powerful as they pleased, there was a danger that they might sink again into the same position, and lose spirituality and moral power as they gained, as far as the increase of property was concerned. That would be a very poor exchange if they should ever make it as a people. He did not say that such a state of things would arrive, but he supposed that those who were the strong "-^^ in favour of union could easily see there was a danger of it comin^. if this was so was it a wonder that they stood there to sa aat they conscientiously opposed there being one Methodist Church, and believed they had better remain as they were. On this ground as a principle ground he opposed their going into union. Primitive Methodism was dear to his heart ; he was not ashamed to say he was born in it, and he did not care if this was thrown back ^o him as something unwise to say. He felt it was a pleasure to him to think this : but still the other was a primary consideration with him, • 88 inasmuch as it affected Christianity as a whole, it affected the future destiny of their race, and the accompHshment of the purposes of high heaven, that which their union brethren had talked so much about, the glory of God in the earth. Because he saw that there was some danger of this suffering, he said " they ought, not to go for Methodist union," and in saying this he was as conscientious and , sincere as any man who had spoken that day in favour of it. (A voice : Time.) When Bro. McLean was speaking he did not call time ; and he thought when they had got into the discussion, and .. one brother on one side had had as much time as he wanted, he should not be called to time. (Cries of *' go on.") He opposed union on the ground that they were not prepared for any such thing, even if they were to grant the fact that Methodist union was right. (A voice : Not at all.) They could not carry it ; he believed he knew sufficient of their people to say this. He would grant this, that in some of the weak stations there might be a disposition to vote in favour of Methodist union, and a majority might be found in favour of it ; but he maintained that if they went through the heart of their work — the strength numerically and financially — there they would find an overwhelming majority in opposition to union. Let them go on to those circuits some of the speakers had already named, and they would find that their people were not only opposed to union, but they could not carry them with the union promoters, however desirable union might be. He would not attempt to read letters wliich he had in his possession, but he told them that if they pressed the matter they would outrage men's feelings until they would say, " I . won't go ;" indeed, they had done this. Not many days ago a man came into his office and said, '' If this thing is going to continue I cannot stand it very long, and I won't, but I shall never go. If you • go for Methodist union I wiU never go into a united Methodist Church." And that was the result of the agitation of this question amongst them. Men who felt the financial responsibility of the work were getting worried and discouraged by it, and they might , depend upon it that even the agitation of this matter was doing . serious harm. He wished to say a word in reference to their English connection. Until the Conference in England gave them ; the frankest permission to do this, he did not see how they could in ; honour do it. Why? because they had entered into a solemn com- pact with the English Conference that neither party should ever , sever the connection without the consent of the other. Now, they . had not that consent, and until they had they could no more honorably withdraw than we as a count-y could withdraw from our ^ connection with the British Empire. Nelson was advised by his brother officers not to gn into conflict, and he said " I cannot see as you see," thank God for the Nelsons. The name of Nelson would go down to the end of time ; for though he could not see as others 89 saw he came off victorious. He stood to-day on the same old deck as in the past and could not see as some brethren saw, and on that deck he meant to stand. He did not say that every plank was sound, but if there was a plank with a bad spot in it let them try to get it out and mend it as best they could. They had had their weak spots pointed out — this station was weak and the other station was weak, and if they were not doing well, and could not be made to do well, and there was no prospect of success, well, let them give them up ; still he thought they should be very careful about this. There was such a thing as bounding from one extreme to another. Their danger was in attempting any of these things they might go too far and make a worse mistake than they had ever made before, and they would have to be guarded. There was another point, and though it was with pain he referred to it, honesty obliged him to do it. It was that he was sorry to have to say that some of the places which were called weak were not so because there was no material to work upon, but it was a fact that some of them were weak and would remain so because they had been mismanaged by men whom they had employed by mistake. He did not point to any person particularly, or to any individual personally, but he did say that if they came to the conclusion that they ought to cut off weak stations, as honest men they should come to the decision that those men who had made them weak and did not succeed but set their stations down everywhere they went, should be told they were weak. (Hear, hear.) When they had adopted this course they would improve the ship. If there was anything wrong with the vessel let them break her up and make her sea-worthy ; and he should use his influence for that, believing it to be for the glory of God. Bro. Briggs said, there had been a good deal said about their being Primitive Methodists. He might say he was spiritually bom in the Primitive Methodist Church ; and he owed a good deal to the chairman for the help he gave him when a child in the Church. As to his position to-day in the Church, and the world, he owed everything he was to-day to Primitive Methodism, and the Lord Jesus Christ. He took no credit at all to himself in that particular. A great deal had been said on that and the previous day in reference to their work, which was a fact. He had heard no person denying these facts — not even Bro. Bee. No cne had got up and stated that these facts in favor of union were not true. In reference to the dark side of their Cnurch, not one of these facts had been contradicted. Certainly they had been contradicted in general terms, but he knew himself, though he had not travelled over their work in Canada, as some of these bi ethren there had. But he knew when he had been asked to preside at meetings, one Methodist Church would frequently occupy all the persons in the town who could go to Church. He 90 knew places where there were three or four Methodist Churches, and one would provide for every man, woman and child who could go to Church. Then there was the expenditure of means on missions, building new churches, paying debts on old churches and parsonages. He believed they had in Canada to-day a church property valued at $300,000, and if they put the interest on this sum at seven per cent, at $21,000 which they had to pay, and then they might put $29,000 expended on labour, thus showing about $50,000 a year, which they were spending. He did not think there was a brother present, who could deny that three-fourths of this sum was wasted. He had a fact in his possession which was not his own, but was given him by a gentleman who was a member of the Methodist Church of Canada, and who he believed contributed more to the church than any other man, and who had taken more pains to ascertain what was given than any other brother in it. This gentleman had told him, that the money raised in Canada to-day by the Methodist churches, was sufficient to pay, and pay well, for all the ministerial labour required in this country, and to do the work of God in a much more efficient way than it was done now, besides leaving a surplus over this amount to keep 50 to 75 men for foreign missions. Some people said that union would retard their efforts. Let them take facts in reference to the union which had thus far taken place. Mr. John Macdonald, with whom he was intimately acquainted, told him that he went down to the eastern provinces as an agent for the mission, and the people had not only paid as much to the mission as they did before, but they had more than doubled their missionary money this year. (Hear, hear.) So that instead of union helping to retard the funds, it had more than doubled it. He had given these as facts, and he did not think these facts could be refuted. He thought it was a great shame, and the matter came light home to him and another Brother who had thought over this matter, — were they doing right in spending this money in this way ? For instance : A man said the Lord had blessed him, and he would lay by $1,000 or $1,500 to give away. as the Lord should direct him. Was it right for him if he gr.ve $2,000 a year for benevolent purposes, to give $1,500 of this to a Church which he conscientiously believed was wasting the motley ? and he believed that this was being done by many. Bro. Crompton asked why they did not branch out at Carlton-strcet. Now, there were members of places round who, when they wanted a place, came to Toronto and begged money ; and there were brethren giving and giving to support churches which had only seven or eight members attending to hear a man preach. In conclusion, the speaker remarked that he felt it was wrong to be giving money in this way. 91 Bro. HuoHAN said Bi-o. Bee's argument had been that success was extrernoly dangerous — that a large church was a dangerous church, for it was liable to disunion, and not only so, but it was liable to grow cold and indifferent. What a mistake Primitive Methodism tlien was in England ! Bro. Bee said that a smaller denomination was a power, and that it had a larger amount of faith in conneiition with it. How about the Unitarians, (cheers,) and how about some of the Anni- halationists, who were going about spreading pernicious doctrines. He heard one brother say that the Almighty was out of the concern. — (Bro. Crompton : I did not say that about Primitive Methodism. Loud laughter.) It was about the missionary question which was being discussed. The Almighty was said to be out of the concern, but to-day it was much worse. That good brother had tried to make out that their prospects were better and brigliter. Bro. Bee said it would be better for ministers, because they would receive a better salary, and be more comfortable. He was going to make some statements which he knew to be facts. In the Dundas-street Wesleyan Methodist Church, London, to-day, there were between 20 and 30 females origi- nally Primitive Methodists, who left the Primitive Methodist Church in London, rvn ac ount of the expenses in connection with it. Now he was able to prove what he asserted. It was not the increase of salary. The fact of the matter was there was a church debt to be pro- vided for, and the interest on it. There were also other expenses in connection with the church, and the minister's salary and the child- ren's fund question were other matters. The people got sick and tired of the business in many instances — some indeed, who professed as great loyalty as any loyal brother here that day, and some of them who were never going to forsake Primitive Methodism, but who had been born and laboured in it for its good. These individuals had left latterly, and on being asked why they left, and told by persons, " why I thought you were a Primitive Methodist," they said, '* oh, we could not bear the burden ; it was crushing us down. There was a constant dun, dun, dun, and we could not live there at all." They might say these people were better gone, but theie were others going in the same way, for they were laying too much of a burden upon people. He was going to state another fact. They had an overplus of married men. His good Bro. Crompton predicted, years ago, that this would be the case. Bro. Crompton said that at the rate they were going on they would have more married men than they had stations for. Now they had these married men, and they had not got stations for them. They had made stations which were weak ; they had got up their sta- tions to supply these men with homes, and the next Conference would have to do something more, for they would have seven or eight addi- tional married men in connection with the work. (A voice : We'U stop them getting married.) Oh ! but they could not do that. (Loud laughter.) With these seven or eight married men came additional 92 expense. Some of the brethren now began to cry out. The fact of the matter was, he was not for splitting up the connexion, but he be- lieved the time was come when they should prayerfully consider whe- ther they would not do better with their men, and money, than they were now doing, in sending men where other persons W3re now labouring, and where they in some instances entered into those men's labours, just as much as they had entered into theirs. He did not know any brother who came to that Conference having been in- jured by the union question, and he did not know any station that had. There might be some. It had been said this constant agitation of union was injuring them. He was one of those who would go against agitation if they were to go about agitating instead of doing their own work. He had not prayed or w^orked less since he had em- braced union principles, or been less successful in winning souls to Christ, and he could say this of many of his brethren whom he knew. He believed that many of them had given themselves more than ever to the Lord, believing that He, in his own good time, would bring it about. They could Learn to labor and to wait. He did not advise being very anxious about this question or hurrying it through. They had, however, certainly got to a crisis in their church history, and now it was either sink or swim with them. They had been talking about patching up the old ship — he was afraid they would have a difficulty in getting the lumber ! Bro. LoMAS thought they could not burk the main question, but it must be taken hold of and quietly and calmly handled — every one ad- mitted this, and they might just as well take hold of it as not, be- cause it would not die. His conviction was that lay delegation in all the evangelical churches was a forgone conclusion on this continent. The ver}^ principles for which they had contended were triumphing. They all knew that there was a spirit of Canadian nationality growing up, and this was permeating ecclesiastical as well as national matters. A national spirit of this description entering into ecclesias- tical things would of course tend to shake some of the old order of things, and it was a great q' .>3.'on when they looked at this matter on e\ery side, whether it ^oul'* be wise for them to resist it. His idea was, that when that spirit of Canadian ecclesiastical feeling had risen up it would be able to absorb everything that came in the way of i\. He felt this to be the case, whatever our own pecidiar feelings might have been some time ago — he was arguing a little against him- self, because he saw a little differently. Some had argued a great deal — and so had he — that it was not right for them to take their home mission fund and make it the means of arguing against their own cause. It was a well-known fact that many of the churches at the time they united were deriving help froni the churches of the old m country. If those who held union views very strongly would look at the matter properly they would see that it was going on very nicely, it did not need to be hurried. What he meant by this was that ho had heard brethren setting men very much one against another as though a union man was excessively disloyal, and as though a man of a different opinion was extremely so. They could argue this matter without 'getting at loggerheads. Let them have a little patience with one another, quietly look the matter over, and let union and non-union men be sustained just as though the matter had not been agitated. Under all circumstances the better way for them was quietly to let the thing go on. He thought that he knew the young Canadian mind. The older men — not only ministers, but laymen — went for unity, for Methodism as it was, whilst the younger branch of the Canadian mind went for union after all. Why not ha-^^e one church working in perfect harmony, and pushing the whole thing 1 If the youthful mind were going wrong let them direct them, but it was no use trying to crush them. Let them not try to stop the movement, unless they saw that it was absolutely against the providence of God, and he did not think it was, they must remember that supposing union were to be carried that day it was a well known fact that the friends at home did not see things as they did in this country ; and it was also a well- known fact that if union were decided upon, the friends in England would send forth men to perpetuate Primitive Methodism as it was, and that would create a feeling which all of them must deplore. Rev, T. Guttery being called for, said he had no desire to address the Conference again. The Conference persisting in its request that he should address it before its close, Mr. Guttery reluctantly took the floor. He said : It is reported, that Mr. Bright once said, " I have known a speech change men's opinions, but never men's votes." If they acted on that principle thoy would not find a satisfactory solu- tion of the problem now before them. He would suggest that union men should try calmly, without prejudice, to weigh the arguments of the bretliren who were opposed to union, that they should do so fairly, that they should not feel as if Bro. Bee was talking against them and that what he said must be controverted. What Bro. Bee said demanded careful thought, and so of the remarks of Bro. McLean. He should like Bro. Bee to take up Bro. McLean's side of the question, Bro. McLean to take up Lro. Bee's. (Bro. McLean : I will do it. Laughter.) He would venture to say that if they would do this, if they were not soon converted -hey would soon be in the agonies of convictions ; and they would be passing over and changing sides. He would suggest one or two things for his brethren to weigh. He asked those who were known as union men to try and imagine what other brethren felt when they said Primitive Methodism was the child of providence. He had heard that matter laughed at, and to him it was one of the most sacred and solemn thoughts of his religious life that 94 he had been connected with a Church that he thought was permanent- ly the child of God's providence in the 19th century. He did not mean that then organization was any more perfect than that of other churches, or that her polity was more perfect than that of other churches, he thought it as good as any other, (hear, hear,) but there was a peculiarity about the origin of the .Connexion, as well &s a glory about her history. How did she start 1 All knew how some other connexions began, some in this way, — certain leading officials in the Wesley an church desired changes in her laws or usages ; there was a majority opposed to these changes — would not have such changes ; and there arose a controversy, and the men on the two sides could not agree, and there came a split, so that two bodies of Methodists originated in an ecclesiastical contention, some of them went out for one principle, some for another, but these bodies began thus, and one of them took some thousands of Wesleyan Methodists away, and they formed the nucleus of the bodies that now existed. How differ 3nt it was with them. Mr. Bourne, and Mr. Clowes had no con- tention with a single law of Wesleyan Methodism. History repeats itself. If they went back 300 years they would find that God was pouring out his Spirit on the World — that the old vessels could not contain the new wine, and the old forms of Church government were not found sufficient. He could go to-day to the Wesleyan M. Confer- ence Eecords of 1807, he could find a minute which distinctly said that it was the opinion of Conference that even allowing camp meetings to be held in America, they were highly improper in England, and likely to be productive of considerable mischief, and we disclaim all connection with them. It was not for him to say that Conference decided wrongly — if they did, he gave them credit if they acted in a right spirit and in a right way. The question was not, whether the Primitive Methodists originated in a split of say 50,000 members, or even 20,000 1 He said they did not take one. The two founders of the Primitive Methodist denomination- were expelled. He could prove to them from the Wesleyan records in Tunstall that her found- ers went on labouring, and the first churches raised by them were handed over to the Wesleyans, and were Wesleyans to-day. It rvas only when the Wesleyan ministers decided that they would have nothing to do with the societies formed by the Primitive Methodist founders — and that being so, they felt called upon to take care of themselves. The first class of Primitive Methodists was about the same number as the one founded in Oxford by John Wesley. None of them were members of any other Church, but were converted out of the world, and from that class arose the denomination which now added to the Church 3,000 souls every year on an average for 60 years. He believed that to belong to such a Church implied a trust. They had a voice in saying what should be the management of this mighty spiritual force which God had called into existence. He 95 wanted his union brethren to consider this matter, and to think what eJBfect it must have upon their hearts who had long held it as one of the dearest responsibilities of their lives. , He wanted them to try and ascertain as far as they could why God called this spiritual force into existence. His answer to this would be that there was a part of the British population that other churches were generally overlooking ; there was an empty place^ and God called this church into existence to do the necessary work. He held it would be an error to try to put ail end to Primitive Methodism as a distinct body in England. He rejoiced to think that this grand responsibility was fully realized by the honoured men who held connexional power in England. But there were questions asked respecting this work in Canada. Undoubtedly in many respects the circumstances were different from those in England. Union brethren asked — was Primitive Methodism called into existence at first to do the very same kind of work which other churches were doing 1 to jostle them, to build a second church where every body nearly felt that the second was not needed. (Hear, hear.) Our founders felt called upon to use means which other churches did not, and saw these means blessed by God. In Canada what is our distinctive work — what are we trying to do, which others are not doing just in the same way with greater success and mightier results 1 Are not the probabilities that if we were united to-day Canada would havejust as much Methodist agency, be even better supplied with the gospel — there would undoubtedly be a great saving of money, a higher standard of ministerial abil ity, and far less rivalry and div - sions. This is how union brethren speak. I want us to think over what they say. I want us to be able to answer it — not by imputations of disloyalty ; but by reason and facts — are these things so "? (Applause.) Perhaps it may be answered that the question of money was of little moment when in comparison with the importance of soul-saving. Souls were more to God than the richest offering of wealth. But still there was a solemn responsibility on those who expended the money subscribed for Chrislian work. It was one of the ques- tions that must force itself on Christendom, is the money offered to God wisely spent by those who are his stewards 1 Now, it is quit© certain our people are much better oft* — infinitely better off than in England. Our towns and cities, our villages, our poorest districts are better supplied with schools and ^iiinisters and churches thai theirs at home. Lastyeartwelvehundredpoundssterlingwassenttous in Canada. We needed it to meet a crisis, I do not know how we could have got through this year without it, looking at our position. But is it a right position ? In London there are probably two millions of people, for whom there is no church accommodation provided. London has 70 times the population of Toronto. In London we have about 20 mmisters, in Toronto we have 5. In Birmingham we have, I think, three ministers, with a population of 300,000. In some places here I 96 { we hare two ministers, in the midst of a mere handful of people, and j they are pressed on every side by ministers and churches of other I communities. What can we say to these things 1 ] Our missionary money was raised by very great self-denial in England. i He had heard of a laborous wife denying herself of what was almost (j her only luxury, a little sugar in her tea — she gave her pennies. ^ Such self-denial was being practised in different ways by thousands of our noble people at home. Now he would put it to his brethren, did it seem right for the well-to-do societies found in almost all our Missions in Canada, to be receiving money in this way. (No. — No.) Ought we not to support ourselves. (Yes, yes.) Some of our breth- ren feel this on their conscience. It must be entertained. He was J not in favour of any violent changes in this respect. Probably the ] wisest thing would be some gradual approach toward self-support, (hear, hear,) we may reach this slowly — it may tax us a little heavier our- selves — but this is the path of honor and of righteousnes.s. (Applause.) !|j He had before called their attention to a point of difference between the two churches. He must impress it upon the brethren who wished union. Our people will never join any church which gives its minis try a much higher rank than their brethren. And this is a question I /or our people. Their home is not to be wrested from them. We must not over-strain our official powers. Before this controversy is (carried to any greater length, before officials say much more on this subject, the people should be asked their minds. Perhaps we are after all too much of an aristocracy ; we are governed by a select few. They saw a church of 200 members, and a congregation of 500. Some question about that church had to be decided. Who decided it 1 the 500 *? no ; the 200 ? no, but about six or eight men went into a vestry, and the rest went home. That was Primitive Methodism, . and all Methodism and Presbyterianism too, and generally as was test- :] ed, in their quarterly and leaders' meetings they had the fullest repre- % sentation of their people that they got anywhere. He held that instead of 100 men in a Conference presuming to decide a great ques- tion like this, it ought to go to the people who should pray and talk over the business with their preachers, and their officials ; and he had faith in the people. If the people do not want union, then union brethren must wait for it, or give it up. But, if it were right it would come. If all their quarterly meetings wanted it, God forbid that they should set themselves against the universal convictions of the church committed to their care. ;; There was another point. The connexional authorities in England had an absolute right to be consulted on this great question. (Hear, hear.) He believed the brethren who advocated union, desired, in the most loyal and respectful manner to consult the authorities at home. For one he had the profoundest confidence in the honoured men who stood at the helm in England. (Applause.) He 97 would oppose anything that seemed like disrespect to these men. (Hear, hear.) Twice during his life he had been permitted to be present in the Committee-Room at Sutton street, London. Though merely allowed to be present as a visitor, he had been struck and im- pressed by the clear insight, the sound judgment, the intelligent bearinfT^, and cautious wirsdom of the venerable men who filled connex- ional offices at home. He would feel the most perfect confidence in submitting any question to these men. They realized their responsi- bility before God, the uses to which they put the resources and agencies of the connexion. (Hear, hear.] In sending this matter to them, we may be quite sure it will be received and considered and dealt with in a candid and intelligent and impartial manner. (Hear, hear.) He thought, as yet, the brethren in England had never had this movement properly placed before them. (Hear, hear.) There were two sides to this question, they had been shown one. (Applause.) Now he thought the time was near, when a deputation at once able and impartial, a deputation with no end to serve of its own — apart from the church's welfare, should be sent to England on this question. And when these steps had been taken, we had done our duty to our people, and to our brethren at home, let us trust in God. He, for one, stood there, not to blame the brethren who stood up for union, in their sincerity and consciences, but he asked both parties to weigh the arguments advanced by their brethren who were of a different opinion, and try to see with a single eye. (Loud applause.) Bro. Goodman considered that they ought to fully know what the safe basis was and what they ought to expect, by the time of their next Conference. Mr. Guttery had said " Let our quarterly meetings act," — he said " Let our members vote." His reason for saying so was that he believed their quarterly meetings did not represent the sentiments and the voice of the membership in every particular. If they were to have anything at all let them have perfect freedom in expressing their views and discussing this matter. Even if there were ministers who would influence their members — and especially those who wftre recently converted — to vote for union, there might be those who conscientiously would influence those who were their recent converts the other way ; but let then know honestly and candidly what the majority of the membership thought. No party seeking truth need to fear the light, or unduly hurry the matter. He would recommend that the next Conference should calmly and dispassionately consider this question, or possibly allow it to be discussed in the Journal. The proceedings of the Conference were concluded by a hearty vote of thanks being passed to the Chairman, on the motion of Bro. Herridge, seconded by Mr. Crompton.