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 ■^^I'j^i^ai^.-^vy-.'l'jif?^:^ 
 
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 s!&2Jlfci^'i£^&<: 
 
flous^ of Commons Bebates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION -SIXTK PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON THE 
 
 CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL. 
 
 TUESDAY, 15Tn APEIL, 1890. 
 
 INCEST CLAUSE. 
 
 On section 6, 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I must oonfesH I luivc some aii- 
 l)rehensi()n that this is lianlly likely to etliciently 
 serve the purpose which I sihjjgested for the con- 
 sideration of the hon. Minister. I suj^'gested the 
 case in which a female of tender years — and it is 
 upon such that this ofi'ence is committed — who had 
 succumbed under tile iniluence of fear, would he 
 exposed to the penalties of the crimiiuvl law. I 
 am not, however, at the moment, j)rei)ared to pro- 
 pose any more a(k(|uate remedy than the one pro- 
 posed Ijy the hon. gentleman, hut I confess my 
 objections are not completely removed. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I would submit for the consider- 
 ation of the Committee, and especially of the 
 Minister, that we have to deal with the balance 
 of conveniences aucl inconveniences, and with the 
 balance of difhculties on one side or the other. In 
 the great bulk of cases, I think it will be admitted, 
 that you have Imt one criminal, and, if the chance 
 of bringing that criminal to justice in the great iitdk 
 of the eases is going to be diniiiiished l)y a law wiiii'h 
 makes the other paily, who is not sul)stantially 
 criudnal, liable to fourteen years' imprisomnent, 
 are we not, for the sake of tht- exceptional case 
 to whicii the hon. gentleman lias alluded, and in 
 regard to which the ol)servation of my hon. friend 
 (\fr. Liiurier) is of cogency, that this nuist have 
 commenced l>y the criminality of the male, taking 
 away our chances f)f punishing the criniinak in the 
 vast majority of coses "! 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. It is possible that we may be 
 flrawing an Act here which will defeat itself in the 
 great bulk of cases. Wliat is going to be done 
 when you are in<licting one or other of these two 
 per8(m8? First, you indict the man, who is 
 generally the princij)al offender. The woman will 
 not be bound to criminate herself; it would Ite 
 extremely unlikely that she would run the risk of 
 doing so. My hon. friend stiys she would be 
 held not guilty. 
 
 
 Mr. BLAKp]. But we are dealing with the 
 proliability of ailvancing justice, of securing the 
 condenniiition of the really guilty party, and 
 when the woman is lial)le to lie placed in the dock 
 on account of the commi.ssion of this outrage on 
 herself, by her own relative, it may l)e, you can- 
 not impress upon her a calculation of chances that 
 by giving her evidence, tiiough proving herself 
 guilty, she may yet be making a door of escape. 
 
 Mr. BL.VKE. I suggest to the lu>ii. member for 
 Xorthumlicrland (.Mr. Mitchell), that his motion 
 would be inconclusive ; but he should wait until 
 the Committee report, and move his nioticm with 
 the Speaker in the Chair. We have already 
 divided once on this ])i()vi.sioii in tlieComniiti-ee. 
 
 THADE CO.MIUXATIUNS CONSPIRACY. 
 
 On section IS, 
 
 Mr. BL.\KE. My«opiiiion is, that the revision 
 of the statutes has ctl'ccted a very serious and jireju- 
 dicial alteration of the law, in respect to the par- 
 ticular class of transactions to which this law was 
 devoted. For my |>art, I was apprehensive, when I 
 .saw the clause in tiie shape in wiiicli the hon. gen- 
 tleman proposed it, and heard the reasons which he 
 gave, that tiie diminisiied (itliciciicy whicli tlie law- 
 has, under the Revised .Statutes, would be altogether 
 removeil. 1 am, therefore, very glad to see that, 
 whatever be tiie jnefatory changes, the hon. gentle- 
 man has, at any rate, resolved to leave that 
 diminished etiiciency intact. My own imjire.ssion 
 is that the original ethcicncy juglit not to have 
 been impaired ; that t!'.'- reference to that particular 
 class of offences with which the Revised Statutes 
 deal, and which was originally dealt with by prior 
 legislation, to which I sliall refer, should remain, 
 and that the whole an<l entire vigor of the excep- 
 tion whicli was made as to statutable criqies 
 shoid<l be preserved. In order that the position 
 which I take on this subject may be appreiiended, 
 I will liave to trouble the House with a brief 
 reference to the statutes as they stood. The earliest 
 statute which we have on this subject is Xi Victoria, 
 
 /26 75^/ 
 
chapter 31, piiHHud in IS7'2, which was a law with 
 rt'fc'i'uncu to tlireuts, violence and niolcHtutionH. It 
 provided as to certain defined acts, whicli were tlie 
 acts it was tlioiight expedient to make iHiniHhahle 
 siMicifically -coi'tain iletined acts arising in the con- 
 nection of workiiiginen with one another, and 
 inaylte, of employers with one another — and it made 
 these acts piinislialile l)y iin])risonmunt, with or 
 without hani lahor, for not more than tiiree months. 
 There were provisions in that statute for the jiro- 
 secution, under the pi'ocedure for summary ]>rose- 
 cutions, )iy justices of tlie jieace out of sessions ; and 
 a pctwer to ap|)eal was given. There was, also, a 
 very ])roper pi'ovi8i')n that the master, or the rela- 
 tive, or cimnection of the master, siiould not sit as 
 a justice of the ])eace in such prosecutions. That 
 Act was not found satisfactory, and in 1S7."), hy 38 
 Victoria, cliapter 3!t, that law was re))ealed and 
 other specific ])rovision was made, which, however, 
 in itself was luisatisfactory. In the following 
 year, 3!) Victoria, chapter 37 (lH7f)) was passed, 
 for which, being at that time Minister of Justice, 
 I happiin to he responsible. Now, by the first 
 section of that Act, tlie Act of the jirevious year 
 was repealed, and by its second section the repeal 
 of the first section of the original Act, .S."> Victoria, 
 was continued, and for it was substituted a more 
 satisfactory section, as I conceiN'ed, and as Parlia- 
 ment approved. That new section dealt with the 
 matter /is art'ecting the relations of men generally, 
 and not of particular classes of men, and it a)>plit-d 
 to thesj I'cluticms certain conditions which were 
 constituted into crimes. Certain jiarticular kinds 
 of oH'eiices, now often called boycotting, antl parti- 
 cular cases of a marked and defined otl'ensive ciiar- 
 acter, relating to intimidation by threat or other- 
 wise. \\ ere specified. They wer-' made ofl'eiices, and 
 it was ju'ovided that they shouM \>v punishable by 
 the alternative of line or imprisonnieiit,suiiiinarily ; 
 l)nt that, iiixtcad of there being an ajtpeal, if the 
 ai.c^used Jiarty objected to being tiled before the 
 suiiiiiiarv triimiial, tlie case should forthwith be 
 treated us an indictable otl'ence and pio.secuteil as 
 such accordingly. 'I'lieii the fourth section estab- 
 lislied for the lir.st time tlie law as it stood until 
 the RevL-ed Statutes, with reference to this jiarti- 
 eiilar subject of conspiracy, and its provision is 1 hat 
 to which 1 particularly wish to draw tlie attention 
 of the ('(.iiiniittee and the Minister of .Justice. Tlie 
 fourth section provided : 
 
 "That mi priisecution shull bo raiiiiitainiihlo ngninst n 
 pcri'iin t'oroDii.siiirac.v to do any act, or to cause any apt to be 
 done, for the piii'iiosc of a trade coinbiiialioii, unless such 
 aef is an oflfence indictable by statnto, or is punishable 
 under the provisions of the Act horcby amended ; nor 
 shall any person who is convicted umler any such proso- 
 culion, be liable to any (irealer nunishnient than is pro- 
 vided by ."ueh statute, or by the said Act as hereby 
 aini'iided, for the act of which he may have been con- 
 victed as aforesaid." 
 
 The statute then defines what a trade combina- 
 tion ?s. Now mark that tlie law of conspiracy was 
 thus swe|)t out of all operation in connection with 
 acts done for the pur|)ose of a trade combination, 
 except in two classes of cases : unless the act done 
 was an offence indictable by statute, or unless it 
 was an offence punishable uiuler this jiarticular 
 Act, in which case, though not necessarily, an 
 indictable offence, it was an offence fif that particu- 
 lar character and define<l in that particular way by 
 the very Act itself, as 1 have described a moment 
 ago. Therefore, the law of conspiracy was abro- 
 
 gated, as to trade combinations, except in this 
 I>articular class of offences defineil, and in all cases 
 of such graver offences, as are offences indictable by 
 statute. Any conspiracy, then, for purposes of 
 a trade combination, to do an act punishable 
 only at common law, <ir |)unisliable by statute 
 under summary jirocedure, was no longer criminal 
 and remained no longer capable of being pro- 
 secuted under the law of conspiracy. If it were 
 one of these minor offences, not raised to the 
 gravity of an offence indictable by statute, if 
 it were a minor offence punishable summarily, 
 it was swept out of the law of conspiracy altogetliei-, 
 if done in concert for the purpose of a tradecombina- 
 tion. Such was the law, and so it stood and gave 
 satisfaction until the Revised Statute (xissed ; but 
 in the Revised .Statute, I find, an alteration was 
 made, and it reads thus : 
 
 " No prosecution shall lie maintainnble against any 
 person for conspiracy to do any act, or to cause any act to 
 be done, for the purposes of a trade combination, unless 
 such act is an offence punishable liy statute." 
 
 So that you no longer have the ju-otecticm, as to 
 the gravity of the excepted offence, which ex- 
 i8te<l uj) to that moment. All offences which are 
 punishable by statute, even though of the most 
 trivial character, and punishable in the lightest 
 way and by the most summary procedure, are 
 o:icc more, by the Revised .Statute, drawn within 
 the wiile net of consjiiracy, even though they are 
 tilings done for the pnr|)oses of a trade combina- 
 tion. This is a distinct enlargement of the exceji- 
 tiou, certainly not contemplated by me when I 
 
 1u'o|)osed the legislation, or by the Hou.ses of 
 'arhaiiieiit wliicli (lassed it at that day ; and you 
 will readily jierceive that, having had a special 
 interest in this legislation, I was siirjirLseil when I 
 found that that diminished iirotection which was 
 still awar'dcd by the Revised .Statute it was jiro- 
 [Mweil further to impair by substituting offences 
 ))Uliisliable by law " for otl'cnces |)Uiiisiiable by 
 statute." lam ghul wc arc going back tiius far, 
 but I hope we shall go back still further ; I ho))e 
 that all the protection which was given, and advi- 
 .sedly given, against the effects of this obiioNious 
 law of coiis])iiiicj- by the Act of IS7(i, will be 
 re.Htored by I'arliament, ami that the attempt — I 
 do not know with what design for all I know, it 
 may not be a designed attempt to dimiiiisli that 
 protection and to enlarge the exceiition, will not, 
 now that the attention of Pariiiiment is called to it, 
 be jiersisted in, but that we shall find I'arliamenl 
 disjiosed to restore in its full vigor and efficiency 
 the Act of IS7l>. Now, .Sir, this law of conspiracy 
 is a very wide law. I declare that the alteration 
 which has taken place renders it impossible to say 
 how small a matter may not now be ])unishable as 
 a criminal conspiracy, ami introduces lamentable 
 uncertainty into the ojicrations of trade com- 
 binations. I have extracted a statement made by 
 a very eminent legal aiithmity, an ex-Lord ( 'lian- 
 ceUor of Ivigland, in one of the very latest debates 
 in the Hou.se of Lords, upon the subject of the law 
 of consjiiracy, ami I w ill trouble the Hi:use by a 
 pernsivl of it, inasmuch as it shows how wide is that 
 net which the law of conspiiiicy s])reads in order to 
 catch the subject. Lord Herscliell said this : 
 
 " I thinkcxngKPratcdiinportnncc has been nttnchodto 
 the expression ' criminal conspiracy.' Many most excellent 
 ueojile have been Kuilty of criminal conspiracy without 
 being deserving censure. The law of conspiracy is a 
 
 
 4 
 
 wide II 
 
 mont 1 
 
 inal 
 
 agree 1 
 
 into il 
 
 consp 
 
 net. 
 
 fortabl 
 
 States 
 
 has be 
 
 Prohili 
 
 have a 
 
 the nri 
 
 the ho 
 
 ment, 
 
 crs. 
 
 head 
 
 spirits, 
 
 guilty I 
 
 had ex 
 
 leiiicth 
 
 carried 
 
 do an ; 
 
 not n 
 
 apt illi 
 
 crimiue 
 
 moral b 
 
 it has 
 
 illegal 
 
 conspir 
 
 clearly 
 
 spiracy 
 
 treat p( 
 
 Althoni 
 
 conspiri 
 
 morally 
 
 Now, (■ 
 law St 1 1 
 abstrac 
 law of 
 trade c 
 of the.si 
 dictabl 
 ofl'enct!, 
 offencef 
 
!xcept ill tliis 
 11(1 ill all uiiMOH 
 H iii<lic;tiible))y 
 ir purp(i8U8 <)f 
 -'t puni8lia)>lo 
 le by Htatute 
 >iiger criminal 
 r)f l«;illg pro- 
 .'. If it were 
 niised to the 
 »y statute, if 
 e siiininaHly, 
 .cy altogntlier, 
 radeooinhina- 
 ood ami gave 
 e {Nutsetl ; hut 
 ilteration was 
 
 le ngainnt any 
 ;iiii«o any act to 
 )inntion, uiilegs 
 e." 
 
 eetioii, as to 
 L', which ex- 
 es which are 
 I of tlie most 
 tlie lightest 
 rocedure, are 
 Irawn within 
 iiL'li tiiey are 
 ide conil>ina- 
 of the excep- 
 ' nie when I 
 V Houses of 
 ly ; and you 
 ad a special 
 iri.sed when I 
 which was 
 it was ])ro- 
 iting nfl'ences 
 iiiishal>le l)y 
 ik tliiis far, 
 lici' : I hope 
 II, ami advi- 
 ihnoxious 
 S7(i, will l)e 
 attempt — I 
 J know, it 
 iiiiiisli that 
 )n, will not, 
 ■ailed to it, 
 I'ai'liameni 
 d elliciency 
 conspiracy 
 alteration 
 silile to say 
 misiialile as 
 lamentable 
 trade com- 
 iit made by 
 Lord ( 'lian- 
 st deliates 
 of tlie law 
 1 1 1 use by a 
 « iile is that 
 ill order to 
 this : 
 
 altnolicd to 
 Dstexfellciit 
 r.icy witlimit 
 'piracy is a 
 
 wide not 8|iroiiil by the law of mir cmmtry. An ngrco- 
 inent bfltwecii two jii'i>|)1p to oumiuit a I recpaKS in a erim- 
 inal c<inH|)iriicy, tor it in to do an uiibiwtal .'ict. An 
 agreement bctwci'ii Imnhiind mid wife to sniiiKKb! Koodn 
 into tliid country would make tliein Kiiilly of criiniiial 
 conspiracy, tor It would he an aKrucnieiit to do an illoKal 
 not. Wliuii I conit) lotliis siibiect, I got a little iiiicoin- 
 fortablo, for I am no', aiiro that when I visited the United 
 States I wuK not Kui.ty of criminal conspiracy myhelf. It 
 hnf been hold that any combination to avuia the Maine 
 Prohibitory Lif|Uor litiw ix criminal coiiHpiraoy. I 
 have a recollection of (foiiiK li' a watering plnce where 
 the iiroliibitory law whs enforced, The landlord of 
 the hotel was not allowed to supply spirits for pay- 
 ment, but promised to obtain tliem tor liia custom- 
 ers. Tliere was an item in my bill under the 
 head of 'sundries' which covered the cost of the 
 ■pirits, and I am afraid the innkeeper and I were 
 guilty of criminal conspiracy. Any noble lord who has 
 nud expcrioiice of tlio criminal courts will know the 
 length to which the law of criminal conspiracy has been 
 
 carried. I am not prepared to say that any agreement to 
 do an illegal act, or to do u legal apt by illegal moans, is 
 not n criminal conspiracy. There is a case which is an 
 
 apt illustration of my contention that there may l>e 
 criminal eonsiiirncy, even to boycotting, without much 
 moral blame. There is a ease now ponding * • * in which 
 it has been held that an agreement to boycott was an 
 illegal conspiracy:, and I apprehend that every illegal 
 conspiraej^ is a crimimil conspiracy, because it comeg 
 clearly within ths detlnition. That is the case of a con- 
 spiracy by highly respectable steamship companies to 
 treat people in a certain manner and so eifeet their trade. 
 Although these companies may bo guilty of criminal 
 conspiracy, I am sure they will not feel tliemselves 
 morally to blame." 
 
 Now, Sir, what I want to jiruss is this : that, as the 
 law stood as the Parliament of IS7<i passed it, we 
 abstractiid altogether from the operation of the 
 law of eonsjiiracy, all acts done in pursuance of 
 trade combinations, which did not fall within one 
 of these two categories : first, tliat the act was in- 
 dictalile by statute, and so in its nature a grave 
 offence, and, se(^ond, that the act was one of the 
 ott'eiices specified in the statute itself, and which 
 were jiarticularly geiiiiane to the i|uestioii of trade 
 coinbinatioiis. For anything outside of these, tliat 
 tlie Jiarties combined to do, tliey v.ere free from 
 being ])rosecute<l for eoiispiracy. The I'evision of 
 the law lias changed that, tc^ the detriment of the 
 ethciency of that jirotection, liy sultstiliitiiig the 
 Jihrase " jiuiiishaide liy statute" for the phra.se 
 " indictable by statute," and bus, tlieiefore, jier- 
 niitted tlie application of the law of criminal coii- 
 s))iracy to acts, trivial and minor acts, done in 
 pursuance of a trade eoniliinatioii, tliougli tlio.se ; 
 acts be not either indictable by statute or within ' 
 the range of tiie specified crimes enuiiieiiUecl in the 
 Act itself. What 1 ask the Committee and the ' 
 Minister is that the ethciency of tiie protection ! 
 which was given in IS7() shall be restored, and 
 that a form of words shall be adopted wliich will l 
 accoiiiiilish that result. 
 
 Sir dOHN THOMPSON'. We are dealing witli 
 a class of otl'ences in respect of which labor oigaiii- I 
 satioiis, or, as they are known by statute, trade 
 coinbinatioiis, feel ajiiu'ehensive of iiiellicieiit pro- 
 tection under the laws which allow them to be 
 foriiKMl. The legislation is restricted entirely *,() 
 such trade combinations. 'I'lie particular case in 
 respect of which the a])|)reliensions of tlie.se trade 
 combinatioiiM exist, as I stated to the Coimuittee a , 
 few moinents ago, is the indictment for refusing to j 
 work witli or for any employer or workman. In 
 respect of tliat, tiie aniendinent wiiich I [iropose [ 
 comjiletidy covers the case. It declares that they i 
 sliall not be liable f(n' refu.^ing to work with or for 
 any employer or workman. On reviewing tiie j 
 clause which 1 had drafted for that purpose, but | 
 
 which wns not as wide as the one I propose, the 
 labor organisations jiassed resolutions and ineiiio- 
 rialiscd privately, by circular, nieinbers of the 
 House, asking that the Hill should be amended in 
 the direction in which I have fraiiieil this aiiieiid- 
 iiieiit. They were willing to accept the provision in 
 the Hill, provided 1 sulistituted the word " statute" 
 for the word '' law " in tiie last line of section 18. 
 Hut I have gone a step further, and, in order that 
 tlieir rtupiest be satisfied, I propose to declare 
 that in no ease shall they lie prosecuted for 
 refusing to work with or for any employer or 
 worknian. It seems to me that in doing that I 
 meet the practical ditticulty which has arisen, and 
 I coinjily with the reimest of those v/lio have con- 
 sidered this (|uestion fully for the last few years, 
 and who are most cfmceriied in it, the trade organ- 
 isations themselves ; and I may say to the House 
 that they have not merely considered it f-om their 
 own point of view and their own knowledge of the 
 law, but they have been carefully advised as to 
 every question which might arise out of it. U.nier 
 these circumstances, I hope the lum. member for 
 West J)iirliam, after lia\ing stated the views he 
 has expressed, and having explained what his view 
 is as to the distinction in the law prior to the 
 revision of the statutes and now, will not press the 
 Committee to widen the provision which I state to 
 the House ; and the House will be already aware, 
 from the reipiests they have had from the labor 
 organistitions, meets every jiractical emergency 
 which has been suggested, and meets to the fullest 
 extent the reiiuests made. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Well, I retain my very strong 
 opinion that a very important protection to the 
 labor organisations in the exeici.se of their jiower 
 of combination has been removed, and that their 
 poKitioii is extremely iiiijiaired ; but after the lion, 
 gentleman's statement that he has had communi- 
 cations from tile la) lor organisations, and that they 
 have informed him that they are perfectlj' satis- 
 tied with this legislation, I shall not now be wiser 
 for them tliaii they are for themselves. 
 
 Mr. L.VURIKR. It .seems to me that the labor 
 organisation.s scarcely ap])relieiid tlie ili.stinction 
 wliicii has just been pro|iosed by my lion, friend 
 from West Durhaiii. It is certainly a very im- 
 portant dill'erence, though technical, ami probably 
 <ni that account overlooked liy the organi.sation ; 
 and if the attention of the organisation iiad been 
 called to it, they would have only lieeii too glad to 
 avail tliemselves of tlie more stringent protection 
 suggesteil by my lion, friend. 
 
 Sir dOHX THO.MP.SOX. The very section 
 wiiicii is now proposed and 1 ought to have men- 
 tioned it sooner, out of deference to the lion, mem- 
 ber for West Klgin -is the proposition he sub- 
 iiiitte<l to the House last year. 1 think he dicl so 
 at the reijuest of tlie labor organisation. I know, 
 that after tlie Hill was iiitioduced liy liim, dele- 
 gates from the labor orgaiii.sation waited u))on 
 almost every iiieiiiber of the House and recjiiested 
 their sii|iport for the Hill. Hut the Hill was not 
 introduced early enough to reacli all its stages. 
 Delegates from a number of these labor organisa- 
 tions met inembers at the beginning of this .Session, 
 and reijuested that some such clause should be 
 adopted. I proposed the chiuse whicli is in the 
 Hill, and they distinctly agreed to tliat as sutticient 
 for all their purjMjses. Since the Bill was intro- 
 
duced, they have iBsuod a circular, tn which the 
 lion. iiieiidMM' f(ir Moiitit-al (Mr. ('Mrnin) drew my 
 uttvntion ycNtorday, and u i:(>|>y of whicii I rccuivud 
 this iiiortiing. That circular contains the follow- 
 ing rcHolution : 
 
 " Be it rwolvcd, thnt wo nnk that Sir .lohii Tlioiniwin's 
 Bill to fiirthcriuiicnil the criiniiuil liiw hu aiiiuiulud by 
 iii§urtiiiK (ho word 'atiituto' in pliico of ' liiw. ' " 
 
 In addition to that, houiu cigiit or ten dclcgateg, 
 reprcHcnting all the trade and lalH>r orL'aniHations, 
 waited upon the First Minister, tii«! Nlinister of 
 Agriculture, the Minister of Marine and myself, 
 the other day, and made the recjuest that the 
 simple change slxudd he made in my Hill of in- 
 Herting the word "statute" for "law." I think 
 the section I have proposed will lie an imjiiMVc- 
 nient, and gives them further protection even than 
 that ; hut considering, as the lion. mend>er for 
 West Durham has said, that it meets the re(|ue8t 
 put forward liy these organisations, and, as far 
 as I can sec, meets all the practical dilticultics, it 
 would lie well to rest content with that much for 
 the |)re8ent, at any rate, unless a practical case is 
 put forward calling for a change. 
 
 Mr. CURKAX. .Jmlging hy the observations 
 of the lion, menilier for West |)nrham (Mr. ISlake), 
 it would appear as if there will not he as nnich 
 protection as formerly. What we nnist also take 
 into consideration is the fact that these organisa- 
 tions are advised hy legal gentleuien outside, whose 
 views arc very ditlcrcnt to those expressed hy hon. 
 gentlemen here. I have often myself, when con- 
 versing with these people, found tiiat points which 
 appeared very clear to mc, were taken exception 
 to hy them, under advice given them elsewhere. 
 The hon. the Minister of .lusticc has met the reiiuest 
 of these jieoplc on their own ground, and, per- 
 ha))s, to some extent inijiroved upon it. It is 
 prohahly well to give them wliat they ask. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. When I was called upon to 
 legislate on this subject, I gave what I thought 
 was right. 
 
 .Sir .JOHN THO.MI'.SON. I have given, not 
 only what I thought was right, but more than they 
 asked, and do not pro|Kisc to give any more. 
 
 Mr. WILSON (Klgin). I am t<ia certain extent 
 itatistied with the clause introduced by the .Minister 
 of .Justice, for I feel it is going in the direction of 
 granting the relief which the lalnir organisations 
 require ; but I would call the attention of the 
 Minister of .Justice to the fact that in the report, 
 N!r. Klliott, the president of that organisation, in 
 referring to the i;lause introduced by me last 
 .Session, stated that clause was introduced so late 
 and the clause was so crudely drawn that it would 
 not meet the acceptance <if the lalH>r organisations. 
 The Minister of .lustice, however, has accepted the 
 clause, as I introduced it last Session, which the pre- 
 sident of the organisation said would not suit their 
 puqiose, and he ought t<i remove the crudity with 
 which it is encumbered. I would further rec<immend 
 him to have communication with .Mr. Klliott, so that 
 he may get the approval and endorsation of .Mr. 
 Klliott. K the clause was so crude and unsatisfac- 
 tory when it emanated from my hands and a|)peared 
 upon the Order paper in my name, 1 cannot under- 
 stand how it could have improved so very ni'.ich by 
 eniaiiating from the hands of the Minister of .Jus- 
 tice. I supjKise the organisations of trade and labor 
 arc very honest and sincere and candid, and I .should 
 judge the Minister would do well to reconsider 
 the matter, and see whether the clause merits the 
 approval of .Mr. Klliott. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I read that correspondence, and 
 I niu.st say I formed the conclusion that the real 
 '>i)inion of Mr. Klliott was that it was not the 
 clause that was crude, but the hon. member for 
 Klgin. 
 
 m 
 
 SP 
 
 E 
 
 Ottawa :— Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the tjueen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
;allo(l iiTMin to 
 liat I tiu)Ugl)t 
 
 ivu givun, not 
 iiKiru than they 
 iiy more. 
 I certain extent 
 ly the Minister 
 10 direction of 
 r organisations 
 tcntion of tiic 
 
 in tile report, 
 irganisation, in 
 (1 hy nie hist 
 roil need so late 
 I) that it wonld 
 r organisations. 
 13 accepted the 
 , wliich the pre- 
 t not suit their 
 le crudity witli 
 her recommend 
 
 Kllir)tt,8otliat 
 rsation of Mr. 
 and unsutisfac- 
 Isand appeared 
 . cannot under- 
 i> very nr.ich hy 
 linister of .Iu»- 
 tra<le and laiior 
 d, and T !<li<iuld 
 to reconsider 
 luse merits the 
 
 jpondence, and 
 
 tliat tlie real 
 
 was not the 
 
 n. member for 
 
 lajesty. 
 
 I 
 
 fiouse of Commons B^dntes 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH. PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 i- 
 
 ON THE 
 
 ELECTORAL FRANCHISE. 
 
 Fill DAY, MAY Oth, 1890. 
 
 Mr. HL.VKK. It may be dcsirahle to have a 
 special provision for a particular case, altliniigh it 
 is obvious that tlit ic would lie danger in ado|)ting 
 the suggestion of the hou. member for Algoma (.Mr. 
 Dawson), because it wouM give tiie lion, gentle- 
 man's voters the opportunity of voting " early and 
 often" witli greater facility. Hut it is very ilanger- 
 ous to aj)f)ly the argument that liecause a special 
 district re(|uires special legislation, that legislation 
 slio\dd be made generally ajiplicable. Let me make 
 this suggestion to the hon. .Secretary of State : 
 The lion, gentleman says the reason for his change 
 is becau.se a particular revising officer iias been 
 under the impression that the Taw permitted him 
 to make polling districts of any size ho jileased. 
 I think. Sir, tliat while it miglit be expedient to 
 provide against injustice arising from some error 
 of a revising otHcer, so as to avoid the disfran- 
 chisement of voters ; it is very inexpedient that 
 we should open any wider door for the revising 
 officer to decline doing his full dutj'. I would sug- 
 gest to the .Secretary of State the advisability at 
 the same time at which he makes provision for a 
 possible neglect or error of duty, of making it still 
 clearer what that duty is. He tells us that a revis- 
 ing officer,who is also a judge of the .Superior Court, 
 has construed it to be within his duty, deliberately 
 to make a polling division comprising some 1,1(M) 
 voter-s. I do not umlerstand that to be tlie intention 
 of the law. I understand it to be the duty of the 
 revising officer to restrict the number to 'ioO voters. 
 If we alter the law as it stood, and add this provi- 
 sion, we will be rendering it more likely that simi- 
 lar results will happen in the future. There are two 
 several classes of cafes which occur to me. I think 
 it may very often hajipeii that a revising officer, 
 through error, or perhaps thinking it reasonable, 
 may allow a small number of fifteen or twenty votes 
 ill a polling division, more than the niaximuin. 
 That wouhlbe amply satisfied, I think, by just 
 leaving things as they are. I believe there is no 
 difficulty ill polling at the one place a larger num- 
 ber than our niaxiinuni, and I nelieve it would be 
 less evil to permit, within a moderate limi- 
 tation of that kin<l, the division to remain 
 uiidisturl^ed, than to allow the returning officer, 
 
 a w<jek before the election, in the case of an 
 error of that kind, to dislocate the appointed 
 divisions. There is really no necessity for it in the 
 gre.it iiumb(!r of cases for which we may be expect- 
 ed to jiroviile. Such an excepticual cns«: as the 
 hon. the Secretary of .State cites to us as one to l>e 
 provided against, would be pi'ovideil against 
 chiefly by making the law very plain, .so that he 
 who runs may read, and by stating that it is the 
 duty of the revising officer t.> divide the polling 
 sub-divisifnis for each 2(H) or '-'."•O voters. As my 
 hon. friend has said, we have known in days that 
 are past, very great improprieties eommitteil by re- 
 turning officers in reference to the discharge of dis- 
 cretiimary duties. I have had before mean authen- 
 ticated instance wherein, at the last general elec- 
 tion, a ixdling station was established, not in the 
 most convenient or central place, but in a place ex- 
 tremely inonvenieiit to the greater numlier of the 
 voters who hajipeued to be of one party, and thus 
 creating an absolute injustice. I am not disposed 
 te give to the returning officer, who is appointed 
 shortly before an election, who is appointeil at the 
 will of the (iovernmeiit, freouently upon the nomi- 
 nation of the candidate, and who is acting in the 
 heat of a contest, and largely at the suggestion of 
 a canilidate — any more discretionary powers tlian 
 we can avoid. Some such powers he must have, 
 but I think we should limit them to the utmost. 
 
 Mr. HI.,AKK. I do not understand that it is 
 limited in point of time, but that it will be perpe- 
 tually engrafte<l on the law, so that after the next 
 revision, if you should find that a dozen revising 
 officers had made the same default of duty, you 
 would find a dozen returning officers performing 
 the same duty. 
 
 PATENT BALLOT BOXKS. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I thought this must be an ex 
 pott facto arrangement, and that it was not really 
 designed that the Committee should send for per- 
 sons at this late stage of the .Session. I do not 
 think that these persona should be paid their ex- 
 
 Ecnses for coming here in jinrsuit of their own 
 usiness, and, for my part, 1 shall object to it. 
 
Mr. ItLAKK. I iln imt tliiiik tliu chhu {m iit all 
 purallel to imy cane wo liave lia<l ln'feiit'. It wa8 
 nurtily in their nwn intereHt that tiiem' |>ei)|)U- came 
 tiure. Thuv ntiiie in the hoiie that their iiiven- 
 tioMH wouhf )>e adopted, ami tiiat t)u-y woiihl make 
 money out of them. It Heenm to he out of tlie 
 <|UeHtion that we Hliouhl pay them for tlireu at- 
 tenihinceM liere, ami their travellin>$ e.\])enHC8 
 lieMicU-H. If we wtiu'tion thiH now, where are wo 
 goinu to draw tlie line V Tiiere i» a trial recom- 
 mended of three of thoHe hallot Ito.xeH, and are we 
 going to |)ay these men for tliu preliminary use of 
 their invention ? 
 
 Mr. ("HAIM.KAU. The Ion. gentleman evi- 
 dently tliiiikH that anything hut liiH own advice or 
 conclusiona are aliHolntely to lie disregarded. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. No. 
 
 Mr. CHAI'LKAU. Instead of making the re- 
 marks that the hoii. gentleman has just favored 
 the House with, he should have appeared before the 
 Committee and witnessed what was done. He sent, 
 it is true, a suggestion from one of the returning 
 officers ; oii'j ot liis own frieiuls, I ])i'esume. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. No, it was for Mr. IJlacklnirn, 
 the former etlitor of the Lonilon Fru- Prisn, and 
 now registrar of Miildle8e.\. 
 
 PKINTINfi OF PARLIAMENT. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. That clause is expunged. I 
 (piite agree in the view that it ought to l>e ex- 
 ])unged, hecause it would he contrary to the statute 
 which provitles for the piiyment of the indemnity. 
 At the same time, we have ))een made ac(iuainted 
 with this regrettable fact —I think by the Auditor 
 (Jeiieral's Hejiort — that a very considerable sum is 
 owing in the way of arrears on this account. That 
 ought not to ha])pen, and, if hon. members take 
 advantage of the |)rovisiou, by which I 'ey can 
 obtain )>ublic documents at cost jji'ice, and do not 
 pay for them, 1 think the circumstances should be 
 made known. I jiropo.se, on tlie first day of the 
 next Session of Parliament, to move for the names 
 of the members who remain in arrears. We have 
 talked a good deal about chilis here to-day, and we 
 know there is a very good system in clubs of post- 
 ing the members who are in arrears. I sli.;ll jiro- 
 pose to post tiiose members of this House who are 
 in arrears in this woy. 
 
 LAND (; RANTS TO RAILWAYS. 
 
 (In the Committee.) 
 
 On resolution 1 , 
 
 That it is expcdiont to nuthorice the (iovcrnor in 
 Council to grant to tlio Canadian I'aciiie Itailwa); Coin- 
 piiiiy, Dominion land.'* to an extent not excecdinK six 
 thousand four hundred ncrt'.s per luilo for a brant-li line to 
 be coiiHlructcd from Gloiiboro' wcsterl.v, a distance of 
 about sixty miles, to a point on tlie proposed branch 
 railway of the said company runnhiK from Brandon 
 south-westerly. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. I recollect very well that, during 
 the discussion on the charter which was jiroposed 
 to be granted to the Canadian Pacific Railway 
 Company, with all its aids in land and money, one 
 of the reasons given for the large subsidies granted 
 at that time was that they were necessary nir, and 
 in the interest of the country because the company 
 were expecting themselves to construct and 
 
 were to count on their constructing branch 
 lines through the North-West by means of these 
 grants. I find now that it is proposed to give 
 lar^^e subsidies to the Canailian Pacific Railway 
 Company for the construction of those branch 
 lines which we were told they would build in con- 
 seijuence of receiving those large grants of money 
 and hinil. I wouhl ask the liovernment to say 
 why this departure is made from the policy 
 enunciated in ISS(»-H1 ? 
 
 Mr. DKWDXKY. The line from GlenlKUo' 
 westward constitutes a portion of a line which, I 
 think, was originally called the Winnipeg South- 
 western. There were two South- Western Rail- 
 ways, and the charters were purchased from the 
 parties who lielil them by the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, so that the first resolution would not 
 uome under the objection of the lion, gentleman. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. I am<|nite aware, from the lie of 
 the ground and from seeing the map, that this 
 ])iece does not run from the main line of the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway, but is connected with a 
 branch line which tlie coni]>any has acipiired. But 
 it was a ]iart of the understanding with the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway Company that the branches 
 were to be constructed at their ex|)en8e. The 
 Canadian Pacific Railway Company took over a 
 branch which had been subsidised by the country, 
 and now it is proposed that an additional piece 
 shall be added to that by the company at our ex- 
 pense in ]iart. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. When first the jiolicy of aiding rail- 
 ways in the North-West by hmd grants was brought 
 before the House, inde])endeiitly of the great grant 
 to the Canadian Pacific Railway, in regard to which 
 grant somewhat special reasons were adduceil, I 
 advanced this view : that although it was eminently 
 advantageous, and it was absolutely neces.-ary, that 
 railways should be built through the North-West ; 
 although it was extremely reasonable that that 
 country should bear, by the means we were ])ro- 
 posing, a coiisideralile ]iortion of the burdens in- 
 volved ill the construction of those enterprises ; yet, 
 still, it was of the greatest possible conseiinence 
 that we should devise sfuiic means to avoid the 
 hicking up of large ijuantitics of land, and ])arti- 
 cnlarly the locking u]) of those areas of land along- 
 side the lines of railway, which would be the first 
 desired for settleiiienl, and more especially when 
 these were alternating with free grant sections, 
 which would be .sought for before the sections 
 which were to be obtainable only by payment. 
 We know that, (hiring the jieriod in which 
 there was a considerable imiiiigraticm and an ex- 
 citement with resjiect to the values of land in the 
 ] North-West, the suggestion that advantage wouhl 
 be taken by the railway corporations of their power 
 as land holders, was realised. We know that their 
 behavior was such as indeed wo conhl not coni])lain 
 of ; that it had respect to what they tluuight their in- 
 terest under the circumstances ; and that they raised 
 the prices of their lands, as they ha<l a legal right 
 to do, as we who granted them without condition 
 ha<l no riglit to condemn, to the highest point that 
 the then inflated condition of the market would, it 
 was thought, alhiw. Lands, which had been sale- 
 able at .SI, .Sl.oO or .S'2 per acre were raised 
 to 8"), ?G and even $8 per acre, and sale and 
 settlement were checked, and the country was in- 
 
iicting Imincli 
 
 IIIUIIIIH of thuHU 
 
 <>|)<iHuiI to )iivo 
 'iit'ific Hiiilway 
 tliime Iji-ancli 
 111 linilil ill con- 
 rantH of moiiuy 
 ■riiiiiL'iit tn miy 
 oin tliu poliuy 
 
 roiii GlenlKiro' 
 . line wliicli, I 
 iiini]ii'g South- 
 Wostuni Kttil- 
 uiHfil from tlie 
 Liiiuliiui Pacific 
 ion would not 
 I. gentleman. 
 
 from the lie of 
 niup, that this 
 lie of the ('ana- 
 nected with a 
 ac<j»iirc(l. Hut 
 vith the ( 'ana- 
 it the branches 
 expense. The 
 y took over a 
 y the countiy, 
 ilditional piece 
 any at our ex- 
 
 y of aiding rail- 
 its was hrought 
 the great grant 
 egard to which 
 -■re adduced, I 
 was eminently 
 necessary, that 
 ! Xorth-West ; 
 able that thut 
 we wei'c pi'o- 
 he Imrdeiis in- 
 iterprises ; yet, 
 conse(iuence 
 H to avoid the 
 id, and ])arti- 
 )f land along- 
 Id lie the tiist 
 pecially when 
 ant sections, 
 the sections 
 liy payment. 
 )d in which 
 I and an e.\- 
 f land in the 
 iintage would 
 if their power 
 )w that their 
 not complain 
 )ii;;ht their in- 
 il Ihey rai.sed 
 ii legal right 
 ml condition 
 est point that 
 ket would, it 
 lad been sale- 
 were raised 
 nnd sale and 
 untry was iii- 
 
 
 jured. TiiB Hettlenient uf the country is cfTuct- 
 ed very Hatisfactorily indeed under those coiidi- 
 tioUH which allow two or three iiiemlHirH of a| 
 tainily or two or three iloau and intimate frieiulH ' 
 to go together. One of the great dilliculties in a' 
 new country like the North-VVest is the separation I 
 of tlie settlers, at the best, from the aggregates of 
 population. That diliii.'idty they must encounter 
 until towns grow ; that dillicuilty is made greater 
 in tlu! Xorth-West by reason (»f the large areas 
 which we allow for the individual settler, and 
 which make him in a sense remote even from his 
 iininecliate neighbor. Hut that ditiiculty is iiiten- 
 siHed when under our |)riiiciples of settlement 
 there is going to be Hettlenient ni the tirst instance 
 only in luternate sections ; when you have a set of 
 sections for Haleah>iig the railway, and a free grant 
 set of sections, alternating with each other. It 
 is obvious, exceiit in the case of an immigrant 
 who has considerable ca]>ital, that a settler 
 will be almost driven to say " the capital I 
 have niiiHt Ih; ]iut iiit<i fencing and buildings and 
 into implenients and breakimr the land, and I 
 cannot atl'ord to pay a price for the land ; " and, 
 therefore, you have these inevitable ditllcidties to 
 some extent intensified, even by any system under 
 which there will be a check on free settlement. 
 We cannot avoid that, we cannot eat our cake and 
 have our cake. If it is necessary to make these 
 railway grants to secure the construction of roads, 
 we must do so on the least disadvantageous terms 
 to the public consistent with reasonable ailvcntage 
 to the railways. When these grants were proposed 
 and submitted to the House, I submitted a motion, 
 which will be found recorded in the Journals of the 
 House, for a vote was taken upon it, tliat tiie grants 
 should be made only on condition that the areas 
 ranted of agricultural lands (I did not speak of 
 and with mill privileges or station grounds or 
 town sites, or other special values, but only of 
 ordinary agricultural lands) should be ojien for 
 sale on reasonable conditions for actual set- 
 tlement and in reasonalde areas, at a price 
 not exceetling a maximum to be fixed. My 
 object was to ensure that a man who goes rmt to 
 that country to hunt for land, and takes a maj) on 
 whicli he hnds the alternate .sections indicated, 
 woulc' know that if he has found a choice section 
 on railway lands, he woiilil be as certain to get that 
 section if it had not been entered liefoie, on coming 
 back to the railway oHiie ami paying the sti|)U- 
 lated price, as he would be certain on coming 
 back to the (iovernment otKce of getting the free 
 grant which is adjoining it. He could tliusclioo.se 
 his free grant, and for his neigh))or or friend with 
 whom he wished to live in proximity he could 
 choose the railway land. Hy tliis means you would 
 
 {irovide against the lock up of land which the 
 ion. menilier for Muskoka (Mr. O'lhien) has 
 referreil to, and which niny be a very serious evil. 
 You would make this laiiil as fi'eely oiien for settle 
 nient as the (iovernment lands, excejit on the addi- 
 ti(m of having to jiay a certain sum. In the old times 
 when I had an o])portunity of taking an interest in 
 these matters — an interest which the lion, member 
 for As.siniboia (Mr. I )avin) doubts a little sometimes, 
 but which I can assure him, Iiowcver misdirected 
 w,is, at any rate, very sincere — I received com- 
 plaints fnmi persons who had been in that count'.y 
 and who said : " We went here and there and every- 
 where, and on coming back, having made one or 
 
 i 
 
 more Helectioiis, we foiiml either timt the land woa 
 
 a railway grant and we could not get it, or it 
 was lielit by the Canadian Pacific Railway under 
 that blanket grant of theirs, or it was in tliu 
 hands of speculators, and we came back dis- 
 heartened." Your system ought to be one which 
 would leave open on plain terms to actual settle- 
 ment, irrespective of tlie will of the railway com- 
 |iany, the agricultural lands, out of which, not- 
 witliHtaiiding your arrangement, the railwiiy com- 
 pany shall derive a reasonable price. Name u 
 maximum price, and let the laiiils, suliject to the 
 payment of that inaximuni by reasonable instal- 
 ments, be open to settlement in I'easonable 
 areas. If you do that you diminish the 
 difficulties inseparable from this i|Uestion, t<i 
 the greatest ]io8sii>le extent, and, if so niini- 
 niiseii, the advantages of securing the construc- 
 tion of a railway are greater than the disadvan- 
 tages of causing tlie partial lock up of lands neces- 
 sary for its construction. I do fear, that if there 
 comes again a time of considerable imniigration to 
 the North- West, and of considerable huiiting for 
 land, the reckless manner in which we have given, 
 and are giving, these grants will pi<ive in the fu- 
 ture, as It has proved in the past, to be a greater 
 obstacle to the settlement of that country than 
 might exist if a different system were adopted. It is 
 all very well to rejieat the arguments with which 
 I was met in former years, iiainely, that it is in 
 the interest of the railway coni])any to sell, and 
 that we may be (piite sure they will be glad to 
 set a low jirice on the hind. We liave heard that 
 before, and we have hail an example of the short- 
 sighted policy in the ])eriod of inflation to which I 
 have referred, which prevented settlement just 
 because it was thought a little more money might 
 be obtained later on. I do not want these lands 
 to lie used for speculation, either by the individual 
 biiyei's or by the railway company itself. I want 
 them to be charged, in favor of the railway 
 coni]>aiiy, with a ri'a.sonalily fair piice for the 
 settlers to pay; and while suliject to that charge, 
 that they .shall be as free and ojieii to the settlers 
 as if they were ( loveriiineiit free grants of lands. 
 
 On resolution 1, 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Ti> the difficulties that beset the 
 consideration of tliis ijuestion, the lion, member 
 for Lisgar (Mr. Ho,ss) has added other alleged 
 difficulties w liicli do not in fact exist. He has 
 spoken alioiit coal lands, timber lands, and lands 
 in the immediate vicinity of stations and town 
 sites being included. Wiiat i.s the suggestion I 
 made to the Hou.te '; I excluded lands of this 
 character ; I limited my suggestion to ordinary 
 agricultural lands. Lands which tlie com)iany 
 might have a right to hold as having s])ecial 
 values, wliicli did not come within this 
 denoinination — lands having a special value, 
 such as coal lands, timber lands, to\Mi sites 
 or ex])ecteil town sites, could, by a very easy ar- 
 rangement, be witlidrawn from the operation of 
 the regulation whicli would ajiply, by arrange- 
 ments to be prescribed by the (Jovernnient, under 
 the general direction of I'arliament, a niaxi- 
 niuni to ordinary agricultural lands alone. I admit 
 that there aie some real difficulties to which 
 the lion, gentleman has alluded, but wliiidi also he 
 has exaggerated. He hassuppo.sed that my sugges- 
 tion necessarily applied one maximum to all rail- 
 
way grantit. Not nt nil. It in notnoi'i-minry, when 
 yiiii lire ili'iilin^ U'itli tlif liktulHof mii' I'liiiwiiy cniii' 
 |miiy, to apply tlu^ Kamc inuxiiiiuin wliich yiiii 
 wiiiilil u|i|)ly with I'ffciciu'c to tlic liinilHiif iiiiotmir. 
 For iiiHtaiuH', tlu'i't' In h railway ciitt^'priMt) in 
 wliii'li I uixlt'iHtaiiil tlic lion, iiiriiilx'i' for [jM^iar 
 (Ml-. Horh) takcHa i^roat ileal of patriotirintcruMt — 
 tilt' MiiiIhoii Hay Hallway Coiiipaiiy. No oiio can 
 Mii|)|ioHt> it woiilil Ixt rcaNoiiaMd to apply tliu rniino 
 iiiitiiiniiin or inaxiiiiiiiii to tliat, whii^li would apply 
 to Honit! of tli<? olIii'rH. Knt why uoniplicati^ un- 
 fairly anil inii'caNoMahly a practical NU^p'Htion, 
 whati'Vtn' itM iliHii'ulticH, by aililing thcm^ aliHunl 
 notionH of ilitlii'iilty \\liirh the hon. gentleman 
 untortainN ? We are now ilealing with one ){rant ; 
 We aru now ilealing with one Imality ; we are now 
 ilvaling with a eertain mileage of railway in one 
 IMirt of the N'ortliWcMt 'I'erritorien ; anil we aie 
 ealleil upon therefore, if we ileal with it intelli- 
 gently, to iletermine what maxininiii hIiouIiI lie 
 a))plieil to orilinary agricultural lamln in the 
 region of that grant. Kven there, tlnu'e may We 
 great variatiouM in the characters of the 
 laniU wiiich will he allotted to the company. 
 There, aiNo, you cannot have a jierfect plan liecauHe 
 yonr maximum niUHt havi; regard, I will not say to 
 thcchoiccHt morsel.'*, hut to the highest class of agri- 
 cultural laud properties in the grant. No douht con- 
 Hideration has heen given liy the Administration to 
 those questions. I ]M'csume thvt Minister who is 
 proposing the grant, and the Minister of Hailwaj's 
 — fori suppose they are jointly respousihle have 
 
 considered what ar<! 
 cost of construction 
 
 the ilitHciilties and proliahle 
 what the piospects of traltii 
 
 ure, and the general i|ualities iif the lands along 
 this pro|iiised railway, in respect of which this 
 
 grant of t!,4IM) v.crbs pur niilc is to l>c 
 
 itiven. 
 
 thin, an a hranch ruilway, in going to cnnt ;}I'J,H(M) 
 a mile, and if we are to supiHme tlxmu laniU, 
 including timlier lands, coal lands, town 
 sitcH and sii forth, have only to-day an aver- 
 age casli value of iSiJ per acre, we are gixing 
 tlie cost of the road. If the road will eont 
 «I|H,<NH) or ::<lil,(MI() a mile e(|uipjied, we still are 
 making a free gift of two-thirds of the cost, aver- 
 aging the lands at 8- per acre. 1 do not know. 
 w<! have not the slightest infnrui.ition as to whether 
 there are any special dillicnlties of coustriiction, 
 whether there are "any more rivers to cross;" 
 whether the hridging, the grinliiig, the excavation 
 and SII on, is expensive. I do not know what the 
 particular character of the land is. I'pon that no 
 information is voiichMafcd. .Sir, the (iovernment 
 policy does not regard tht; ilitliculties suggested liy 
 the hon. niemlier for Kisgar. 'I'lie grant is it,4IM) 
 acres per mile all roniid, no matter whether the 
 I road he ea.sy or ditlicult to huild ; no matter 
 whether it is one iiiiniediately promising a large 
 trallic or promising oi,ly a large trathc in tlie 
 future ; no matter whether the lauds are more or 
 less valualtle. Kxcejit in the case of the (ialt 
 Road, (l,4(Ht acres is the general acreage given per 
 mile. We are entitled to ask the grounils of the 
 (iovernnu'iit's conclusion. We are entitled to 
 know whether the (ioverniiient have considered 
 these things — whether they have considered what 
 the proliahle cost of the road will he, what will lie 
 the proliahle results to the company of the road, 
 what the prolialile value of this land grant will he ? 
 We are entitled to know whether the (iovernment 
 have lieen anproiiriatiiig this land grant of (t,4(M) 
 acres per mile, with some legard to those consider- 
 ations, or whether it is all jiure guess work, or 
 whether there has not even l>een a guess. 
 
 OTTAWA :— Printed by Bkow.v Ci(A.MnEKLiN, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
to nmt !!t|'_»,M0O 
 «<> tlioMU IhiiiIh, 
 IiuiiIn, town 
 i-iliiy III) aver- 
 wo ,ivv ui\ ing 
 miiil will cimt 
 lud, wo Hiill iirti 
 tli«? Clint, iivur- 
 I i)ii not know. 
 Ill IIM to wliftlu'f 
 f coiiHtnirtioii, 
 
 •(TH to ITOHH ; " 
 
 till' I'xiiivution 
 ciiow what tli<i 
 
 t'|Mm that no 
 hi! tioveiiiinfiit 
 I'H mi^igi'Mti'il liy 
 grant Jh (1,4IM> 
 ,'r whether the 
 ill ; no niattcT 
 iiiiHing a hiixu 
 
 tralhi' in the 
 lis arc iiKiiv or 
 
 of tliu (ialt 
 rL'a>{»' given per 
 groiinilH of tliu 
 iro I'lititleil to 
 [ivo eoiiMiileroil 
 iiisiileieil what 
 e, what will ho 
 y of the I'oail, 
 
 1 j,'raiit w ill lie ? 
 lie (toverninent 
 grant of (!,4(H) 
 tlioHc eonwiiler- 
 ^ue»8 work, or 
 
 ^IIUMS. 
 
 t Majesty. 
 
 fioUsir of Commons B^bates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 J •" 
 
 MAIL CONTRACTS, &c. 
 
 TUKSDAY, MAY 12tii, 1890. 
 
 Mr. IlLAKK. It woulil he extronitly iinmitiM- 
 fiictory if the teiii|)oriiry Hervico were to 1m( Iohh 
 eiKciunt than it wax a while ago iniiler the arrange- 
 nu'iit l>y which, I think, the i'aiifoiirir anil an 
 other Hliip ulternateil with the faster Hhi|i.s of the 
 Allan l.ine, no that we really got the lienetit of the 
 liest shi|m that w-.-re on this particnhir voyage. 
 Kveryliody kiiov/s that tlu! Allan shipH are getting 
 more anil more out of ilate, ami slower, ami we 
 would lie worse oil' than ever unless such an arran- 
 gement as that was made. My own impression is 
 that there may lie a great danger of our sacriticing 
 the suhstance for tlu! shadow in attempiing to 
 carry out the ]irop(isal:< of the lion, gentleman. I 
 do not see any great advantage in olitaining ships 
 ua]>ahle of traversing the ocean at the rate of 'io 
 knot><, which is quite a diH'ereiit thing from doing 
 a measured mile in the harlior, and unless we are 
 able to utilise these '20-knot ocean liners at some- 
 thing approximating that sjieed for the whole voy- 
 age, there is great disadvantage in a 'JO- knot ship. 
 Such a ship reijuires an enormous expenditure of 
 engine power and fuel, she is very expensive to 
 engine, she is \ery expensive to ran, relatively, 
 ami she has hut very little relative ca]iacity for 
 freight carrying, because her model and her 
 reiiuirements for storage of coal are such as dis- 
 ables her from extensive freight carrying. She 
 is, therefore, an expensive ship to build, exjien- 
 Bive to engine, expensive to run, and not protitable 
 to carry frei"ht. She derives her profits in 
 carrying passengers of the highest class, I'.t the 
 best rate, and from carrying a certain high class of 
 expensive freight up to a limited tonnage. Now, if 
 you cannot tuke the s|>eed out of her, it is unpro- 
 fitable to engage in the service a ship of that 
 ilescription. There ai'c two reasons why I fear 
 we cannot expect to take the speed out of the 
 ship. One is the climatic dilticulty. I .sjioko a 
 year or two ago with one of the principal owners 
 of the Dominion Line, and he told me that the 
 fast ship Vniirniiri'r, of which the Finance iMinister 
 has just sjMiken, had lieen two consecutive whole 
 years running, during which she never had oiu! 
 phance, on either th« Uiwarcl or outward voyage, of 
 
 making her sii(><m1. Kog or something else had inter- 
 vened, and tliat ship had never iHien able to make 
 her mark on her voyage. I su|il)oMe it is un|Hitriotic 
 in me tii say so, but it is iievertheleHH true, that our 
 climate presents a ditllculty in this respect. The 
 other ililticuity is that to which the lion, memlier 
 for .South Oxford (Sir Kichard Cartwright) has 
 alluded. I must confess that although not very ner- 
 vous, 1 would not feel itarticularly happy in trusting 
 my bones in a twenty-knot sliiii running up the gulf. 
 .She is too near the land lor that speed. You can 
 do it, of course, in a brigliLday, but in a great deal 
 of weather it would be utterly unsafe to do it. 
 Kor these reasons 1 am afraid that it is practically 
 out of the i|uestion to expect it. Then you have 
 to enter upon the business of endeavoring to 
 securt! not to keep what we liiivt,' got, but to 
 secure a high class pa.sseiiger trade, and you would 
 have to do that with the alternative ditlieulty, dur- 
 ing a large portion of the year, of hiiiding the paao- 
 eiif^ers at Halifax for a long rail journey, through 
 a country exposed to somewhat inclement weather, 
 whiirh circumstance will not attract a high clasu 
 passenger traflic. These are the ditliculties which 
 I a twenty-knot service will have to meet. Now, what 
 i would be really useful for Canada is a service of 
 1 somewhi^re of about seventeen knots. You will get 
 ' it at much less rate for ships built largely for freight 
 carrying, ships that would be run more economically 
 I and which would retain, at any rate, our freight 
 j business which we are in danger of losing as years go 
 on. We have given half a million on the statement 
 that we were going to get a twenty-knot service. I 
 hojie the result will not be that we shall be asked 
 at some future Session to sanction, or be told that 
 we have sanctioned in advance, a grant of half a 
 million for something entirely different from a 
 twenty-knot service. My o|)iiiion is that a seven- 
 teen-knot service is something that we could get 
 for much le.ss money, and it will be relatively more 
 advantageous to us. There is no object in telling 
 us that our ships are capable of travelling twenty 
 knots, unless we are going to get something like 
 that speed out of them. I would like to see this con- 
 tract prescribe, not merely that the vessel should 
 
 ir 
 
Ihj caimltlc of Htoaming twenty kiiotH, but what are 
 the limits of tlic voyage, and wliat in *'\e length of 
 time that you preaorilH) from port to port. How 
 many days and hours arc to he spent from tlie 
 point of dcjiarture till you roach (i^ichcc ? 
 
 SirlOHN A. MACDONALl). I do not wish 
 the Committee to understiind that we are limiting 
 ourselves to 20 knots. That was tlic proposition in 
 the contract, and when it was ma<lc, it was with 
 the nniterstamling that the vessel sliould he cai>al)lc 
 of attaining "it) Knots. We understand tliat a 
 vessel fit to do 2<) knots on the measured mile in 
 calm water, could not maintain tiiat average speeil 
 across the Atlantic. Tlie steamers running to New- 
 York making that average time, are running far 
 under their cai)al>ility, and, if we succeed inol)tain- 
 ing from a 'iO-knot vessel an average "pced across 
 the Atlantic of 18 knots, or sometliing less, tliat is 
 wiiat we ex|)ect to obtain. All we desire is to 
 have a steam line across the Athi'itic so fa.st that 
 the mails and passengers will not avoid the line 
 and go to New York, l)ut tliat we will have a tirsl- 
 class line, which, lioth as regards ])asscngers and 
 mails, will l)e sought by tlu! |)eople going acioss the 
 Atlantic, and a lino winch will fairly compete witii 
 the steamers going to New York, in sucli a way 
 that it may be considered we are figlitiug tlie 
 Imttle of transportation across the Atlantic on 
 ccpial terms. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. With the advantages the New 
 York lines now have, ami tlie enormous competition, 
 and the magnificent vessels that liave come out 
 within the last two years, if tlie lion, gentleman 
 proposes to enter into coiripetition for tiie ))as- 
 seiiger travel with tiie New York steamers, the 
 proposition is something wilder than any scheme I 
 nave ever heard him propose. 
 
 Sir RICHARD CARTWRKJHT. If I liave 
 judged the hon. gentleman too harslily us to the 
 character of tiiis proposal and some otlier jiioposals, 
 I may remind him that he has made over and over 
 again promises to the House of a very extravagant 
 ;haracter, to the non-fuUilment of wiiich we have 
 adverted more tliaii once. It does not lie witliin 
 the mouth of the hon. gentleman wiio made 
 the statement as to tlie population lie would 
 throw into the North-West, as to tiie results of 
 his land policy in tlie Nortli-West and a good 
 many other matters I could cite, to become 
 very indignant because we hesitate to believe 
 that his sanguine temperament has not again 
 misled him in the matter of tlie ocean ser- 
 vice. All who have crosseil the Atlantic 
 a good many times know very well there are vei-y 
 considerable practical ditticulties and a most enor- 
 mous increase of exjien.se in attempting such a fast 
 line as the hon. gentleman has described. I know 
 I am within tiie mark in saying tint in order to 
 get a vessel capable of steaming twenty knots as 
 against seventeen knots if not eigiiteen knots, you 
 have practically to pay twice as much. I may re- 
 mark to the hon. gentleman tliat the New York 
 craft, with whicli he expects to compete, do main- 
 tain over a great part of the voyage an axciage 
 speed of over twenty knots, as an examination of 
 their records will siiow. So if lie proposes to com- 
 pete with them, lie nuist not merely olitahi vessels 
 capable of doing twenty knots, but vessels cajiable 
 of maintaining that speed dui'ing an ordinary 
 
 Atlantic jNissage, at all events during the summer 
 season. 
 
 Ml'. FOSTKR. I should like to ask the hon. 
 member for West Durliaiit (.Mr. lUake) if Ids 
 remarks liave icference to a ^■evciileen-knot line ? 
 He did not state wlietiier Ids attention at that time 
 was directed to a vessel or a line of vessels of 
 seveutcen-knots cajiacity, or wiiethcr he ]>roposed 
 an avtn-age voyage of sevcuteen knots from port to 
 jiort ? 
 
 .Mr. UL.-VKK. 1 think a scveiitecn-kiKit voyage 
 i^ the highest you can talk of on your line. 
 
 Mr. Mi^NKILL. I think there is perhaps some 
 little ini8ai)])rehensioii on the part of the Coiiimittee 
 as to the (^''ciglit which is carried by these ocean 
 greyhound. . When the subject was u]) for discus- 
 sion before, there were a good iiiaiiy coiillicting 
 statements made as to this matter. 1 took occasion 
 to a.sk the junior luembcr for Halifax (.Mr. Kenny) 
 early this Session to ascertain for me what was tlic 
 freight capacity of these vessels. Tiic hon. gentle- 
 man wrote to tlie agents of soiiuMif the i;oiiipiiliies, 
 and he su|)])licd me with the infoi'iiiation. I fiii<l 
 that in place of those ocean greyhounds not being 
 able to carry more freight tlian ti(HI or 7<HI tons as 
 suggested, the Jf(iJ</<tif and Ti iiloiiii' are ciipable 
 of carrying soniething like •2,(HH) tons of freight. 
 
 .Mr. lUwVKE. Certainly; they are vessels of 
 8,(KM)or it,(HH) t<ms. 
 
 Mr. McNKlLL. 'I'hc iiiipressiou in tlu; House 
 last Session was that the ocean greyjumiids were 
 callable of ciirrying not more than .")(HI or (HH) tons 
 of freight. It was so stated broadly. 
 
 Mr. IJLAKK. It depends on the length of your 
 ship. 
 
 QUKHKC HAHHOR IMl'ROVK.MKNTS. 
 
 Mr. RLAKK. The :Minister of Public Works 
 some time ago hail his attention ciilled l)y way of 
 a (|uestion to the earlier ]iortion of the interesting 
 r' relations which are from time to time enlivening 
 the |)ages of l.i i'ltiindioi. On tliiit occasi(Ui the 
 hon. Minister iici|uiesced in the suggestion that it 
 was projier to bring before the House such infor- 
 mation as existed in the archives of the 
 Dejiartment in resjiect to the matters wiiich are 
 touched upon and iillude<l to in these earlier 
 jiublications. They beeoiiie more interesting as 
 they jirocecd. ami this last batch of three letters, 
 themselves obviously left iiR'om])lete, themselves 
 obviously, from their context, only parts of other 
 correspomhmce, do atl'ord aiii)de warrant for that 
 view of their meaning attached to them, by 
 the hon. member for North A'ictoria (.Mr. Rairon). 
 They do not indeed implicate the Minister, 
 and the Minister lias told us, as we might 
 cx[)ect aii<l hope a ('aiia<liaii Minister Mdiild al- 
 ways be able to tell a ( 'anadian I'arliiiiiieiit, that he- 
 knew nothing whatever about it. Hut they have 
 been piibliit property for .se\eral days, and I know 
 not whether any kind friend may not have antici- 
 pated the i^tlbrts of my hon. friend the member 
 for North Victoria (.Mr. liarron), to put the 
 Minister in ]M)ssession of the fact that such 
 letters had been piililished, at an earlier <late. 
 Altliough the Minister knew nothing about 
 the matter, 1 should have been glad to 
 know from him distinctly if the reading of 
 those letters by my hon. friend the nieniber for 
 
 
 Nortli 
 I first c 
 I been 
 ; isttu'. 
 I I am 
 I the 
 { he re 
 ' this 
 j ceive(l 
 S once, 
 
 ■, made 
 
 ■ liesoli 
 I hoh 
 
 i atteiit 
 J and 111 
 I It is 
 1 geiiuii 
 
 ] for i)\ 
 
 S IWWV 111 
 
 ered fi: 
 J eity ; 
 • view 
 1 the lov 
 the vie 
 ; SOUK! I 
 i [lartuK 
 : of tlie 
 suits ol 
 tend*!!-; 
 Dejiait 
 ' poeus 
 4 tender- 
 ' an air 
 the cah 
 was to 
 the res 
 
 «or othi 
 who w( 
 in<licat 
 against 
 of the 1 
 brothel 
 whose 
 have Ik 
 some a 
 to who 
 :■ lotted, 
 ; lowest, 
 j positio 
 i secure! 
 final lei 
 the te 
 : Mr. lU 
 ! the l( 
 1 directt 
 
 ; what ■; 
 
 •i tilted 
 • lowest 
 I and M 
 
 I •"'«''* 
 
 ' some 1 
 
 , tlu' l)e 
 
 ; that tl 
 
 ^ becollli 
 the col 
 
 ; liavi! 1 
 
 I of SOlll 
 
 ' That i 
 
 i the C( 
 
 I last h< 
 
 I terto 
 
 ;:::i(^mm^^mms -^ ^mm 
 
uriiig tliu suiniiier 
 
 to iiHk the linn. 
 If. Hlako) if lii.s 
 I'litot'ii-knot linu V 
 :ntii)n at tliat time 
 liiii; (if vusHiils i)f 
 tlicr iiu ])i(>i)()N(,'il 
 Hots from j)oit to 
 
 itecii-kiKit voyage 
 
 yom- line. 
 
 ■I! in iH'iliaps Home 
 
 of tlie ('onimitti'e 
 1 l)y liiexe ocean 
 iva.s up for di.seus- 
 
 iiiaiiy coiillietiiig 
 '. I took OCCH«ioll 
 
 lifa.x (Ml-. Kenny) 
 me what was tlie 
 'i'lii' lion, ^'cntle- 
 <if llie c'oni|)anieN, 
 )iiiialion. i finil 
 liomiilM not l>eing 
 i(H) Of 7(H( tons as 
 iloiiir ale ('<i|ial)le 
 Lons of fieiglit. 
 jy are vessels of 
 
 on in the Ifouso 
 
 rriylumnils were 
 
 1 .")(((» or (i(H) tons 
 
 -lly. 
 
 lie length of your 
 
 JVKMKNTS. 
 
 f l'ul)lie Works 
 
 L-aIl<'(l liy way of 
 
 f the interesting 
 
 time enlivening 
 
 lat oeeasion the 
 
 uggestion that it 
 
 <mse such infor- 
 
 fliives of the 
 
 itters which are 
 
 these earlier 
 
 interesting as 
 of three letters, 
 etc, themselves 
 y parts of other 
 ivanant for that 
 to them, hy 
 ia (Mr. IJarron). 
 
 the Minister, 
 
 iis we might 
 lister \foul(l al- 
 liiiment, that lie- 
 
 l)Ut they have 
 lys, and I know 
 not have antici 
 nil the nieiiilier 
 i), to put the 
 fact that such 
 11 earlier date, 
 nothing ahout 
 heen glail to 
 the reading of 
 he member for 
 
 t 
 
 North Victoria (Mr. liarron) happened to he the 
 1 first communication of the fact that .such lettefH had 
 lieen pulilished tli.it was received hy the lion. Min- 
 ist(!r. Jll news, ii is .saiil, generally travels fast. 
 I am surprisi'd if this information has not reached 
 the lion. Minister earlier lh;>n the time at which 
 he received it from the lips of my lion, frieiul 
 this day. If tin? information iiad heen re- 
 ceiv<'d, 1 hold it was the Minister's duty at 
 once, for the honor of his Department, to h;>.ve 
 iiiad(( a thorough eiuiuiiy into the matter which 
 liesoliviously at the source of that correspondence. 
 I hold it to i)e his duty, now that it is called to his 
 attention, to pledge himself to make that enquiry, 
 and moreover, to indicate the results to this llouse. 
 It is perfectly plain that, if the correspondence he 
 genuine, this colleague of ours, the hon. member 
 for (Quebec West (^jr. Mc(ireevy), was in attend- 
 ance here at the time that tenders were to be c(msid- 
 ered for agreat public work to be carried oninhisown 
 city ; that he was here in attendanee, not with the 
 view of protecting the jniblie interest by seeing that 
 till! lowest tenderer should get the contract, but with 
 tli(^ view of acquiring l»y illegitimate means, through 
 soiiu! untrustworthy and corrujit otlicer of the De- 
 partment, early information, even in anticipation 
 of the lion. Minister's own information as to there- 
 suits of the calculations with resjiect to the dill'erent 
 , tenders, in order that a job might be put u]) on the 
 3 Dejiartmcut ami the ])ublic, and that some liocus- 
 ; pocus work might be accomplished with the 
 tenders. It is clear that in imrsuance of that .scheme, 
 an arrangement was made whereby the moment 
 the calculations were run through, Mr. McOreevy 
 was to have access to them, or information as to 
 the residts. It is clear that he acijuired, somehow 
 or other, in advance, information of the fact as to 
 who were the lowest tenderers. It is clear that he 
 indicated to tiiose with whom he was conspiring 
 against the ))ublic interest, and for the jirivate gain 
 of the firm of Larkin, Connolly & Co., of which his 
 brother ajipears to liavt^ been a member, and in 
 whose business the hon. member is rejiorted to 
 have lieen interested, tiie propriety of entering into 
 some arrangtmient with a ])er.soii named Beaucage, 
 to whom it was sujiposed the teniler would be al- 
 lotted, because liis tender was believed to be the 
 lowest, and this before Mr. Beaucage could know his 
 ]iositionasatendeier, whereby his posit ion should be 
 secured for Larkin it Connolly. It is clear by the 
 liiial letter that, just upon the eve of the allotment of 
 till! tender, when notice was about to be given to 
 Mr. Beaucage and Mr. Callagher that they were 
 tilt! lowest tenderers, an arrangement was 
 directed to lind out some jilau whereby - 
 what '.' That Larkin it Connolly might be substi- 
 tuted in place of Mr. Beaucage, who was the 
 lowest tenderer? No. But that Mr. Beaucage 
 and Mr. Callagher, who were the lowest tenderers, 
 might withdraw in some way, might indicate that 
 .some mistake had been made by themselves or by 
 tlu' Department with respect to their tenders, .sc 
 that the higher teiiderof r/irkin it Connolly might 
 become the lowest and .so they might be awarded 
 the contract. Such a condition of things could 
 lia\<! been cHective only by means of the comiilicity 
 of some oliiccr of the hoii. Minister's Department. 
 That it was so seems to be vvvy fairly indicated by 
 ] the corresjiondence, and, tllerefor»^ i^xfii in these 
 j last luairs of the .Session, I call on the hon. Minis- 
 1 ter to do again with respect to this new develop- 
 
 I 
 
 nient, as he agreed to do with respect to the other 
 development, to repeat at the earliest moment his 
 pledge that he will make an enquiry, and give us 
 the result, so that we may not close this Seseion 
 with such an apparent stain resting on the liun. 
 gentleman's Department as exists to-day. 
 
 THE LATK MR. HUDSPETH, M.P. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. In the absence of my lion, friend, 
 the leader of the Opposition, who has been culled 
 out of the H(ni.se for a inonicnt, I may say that, on 
 this side of the House, we cordially concur in 
 every word that has fallen from the right hon. 
 gentleman. 1 knew Mr. Hudspetli for a great 
 many years. He was a warm jiersonal friend of 
 mine from his youth ; he was, as the right hon. 
 gkiitleman has said, one of the kindliest and most 
 lovable souls that ever breathed, and a, man of the 
 very highest instincts of honor. He was one of those 
 those who, in his jiersonal career, his professional 
 career, and his political career, never, I believe, 
 made an enemy, and who made friends l>oth among 
 his adversaries and supporters wherever he went. 
 He was one of those who vei'y largely conduced to 
 soften the asperities, often too great, which occur 
 in the course (ff our political antagoni.snis, and 
 serious as his loss is to us in his other capacities, 
 it is most serious to us in the other element to 
 which I have referred, and in which he stood very 
 high indeed in the ranks of this Parliament. 
 
 RAILWAY SUBSIDIES. 
 
 (In the Committee.) 
 
 Ml'. RLAKE. As the hon. gentleman has inti- 
 mated to us, that this is only the beginning and 
 not the end of this policy, I think it would lie well 
 if he would say what the total liability is that the 
 country is e.xpecied to incur, in virtue of this 
 policy, as i'es])ects this railway ? We have given 
 a subsidy already. We are now asked to grunt 
 more, and the lion, gentleman says we will Ikj 
 asked again for another subsidy. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I understand the statement of 
 the First Minister to be practically a pledge that 
 the remainder of this roail will be aided as the 
 conimencement of it is aided. It is, therefore, ne- 
 cessary that we should know to what extent we 
 are pledging ourselves. That I 'cing done, I think 
 there may be an advantage in adopting the plan 
 which the hon. gentlemau is now adopting. In 
 times ]iast, the hon. gentleman has taken grants 
 for a certain mileage, and the following .Session ho 
 has proposed to apply the gross sum wdiieh he had 
 taken for the longer mileage to a shorter mileage. 
 It will be more diflieult for him to pursue that ini- 
 (piitous plan under this system, and, as he has done 
 ill the past, to doubh^ up the grants. If, therefore, 
 the lion, gentleman states frankly to us, as he has 
 done on these two items, what he intends to do, I 
 think the adoption of this plan may jirevent him 
 from putting liimself in the way of temptation. 
 
 Mr. BL.\KE. I observe that the only jMijier the 
 hon. gentleman has brought down in eimnection 
 with this road -though some communications I 
 have leceived have leil me to believe there are 
 more papiirs -is a niemorandnm signed by the 
 hon. member for Diiiidas (Mr. Hickey) on the "til 
 .March, and another signed by Mr. .1. P. Whitney 
 
for the incorpomtorH, )>oth of tlieni relivting to tlie 
 new corporation of tliis Session. In the first of 
 these (louninenta the lion, nieniberfor Dundas (Mr. 
 Hickey) invites tiio attention of tlie Minister to 
 the fact of tlie subsidy having lapsed, having been 
 unearned by the existing eoinpany, which, lie 
 says, is now defunct, and he asks that the 
 subsidy should be revived in favor of the new 
 corporation of which, I understand, he is a jtro- 
 nioter, as he has been for some tiiiie a jironioter 
 of Hills to achieve the object which is now em- 
 bodied in the Act. I gave notice to the lion, 
 gentleman to-day that on the occasion of this vote 
 I should call the attention of the House to the cir- 
 cumstances connected with the vote of which this is 
 a revival, and to his connection with it. Iiuisiiiuch 
 as this formed one of those cases to which I thought 
 the attention of Parliament and of the country 
 ought to be directed, with reference to the connec- 
 tion of members with subsidised railway corpora- 
 tions, I had occasion, as in the case of the ii(m. mem- 
 ber for (Jloucester (Mr. Burns), before the last 
 general electitm, to bring under the notice of the 
 Canadian public the relations of the lion, member 
 for Diuulas to the former corporation, and I then 
 used these words : 
 
 " The charter for the Ottnwa, Waddington and New 
 York Railway Company was obtained by a gentleman 
 (not in Parliiiment) named Keefer, who was the chief 
 promoter and mainspring of the enterprise. It is the 
 fashion to give value to these charters by .'(ecuring public 
 subsidies. In order to give value to this charter a public 
 subsidy was felt to be neccssarj-. Dr. Hickey, the member 
 for Dundiis, was approached. Ho was given .some stock; 
 he was given a seat at the board ; he was made the 
 president of the company, so that they might obtain the 
 proper powerto work the governmental machine, so as to 
 produce a subsidy. Dr. Hickey, M.P., presenting the 
 merits of an enterprise which boasted of his presidency, 
 a bonus was easily obtained from the (Jovernnient, and 
 voted by Parliament. By that means value was given to 
 the charter; for the charter l)y itself simply gave 
 authority 19 build and work the road, and if it had 
 remained with(uit a bonus, those who promoted it would 
 have had to find persons who liadconfidenco enough in the 
 scheme to give money or backing enough to build it. 
 But when $3,200 a mile was given as a free grant, of 
 course that at onee gave value to the enterprise, and was 
 a great additional inducement (o capitalists to enterupon 
 the scheme. They got the Village of Morrisburg to take 
 $10,000 of stock of which J1,0(K) was paid up. The com- 
 pan'- (lid hardly nothiiigat all ; the $1,000 T-ven in cash by 
 Morrisburg would pay for all they did. lint they did 
 not expect to do any work themselves, or to build the 
 road themselves. They simply expected to sell out the 
 charter and the bonus at a great profit to those who would 
 build the road. How do I show that? liy stating that 
 the president. Dr. Hiekoy, the member for Dundas, pre- 
 pared a pro^)Osal for .some New York oapitalists to sell 
 the charterin the form ofcontrHClingfortheconstruction. 
 The very first provision of this proposal was that the 
 company must have $15,000 paid to the order of the pre- 
 sident, Dr. Hiekoy, to pay for bonds and other honorable 
 engagements. Generally that is i.ot the way in which 
 contracts are made. If you were letting a contract to 
 huilil a barn, or a house, yon would expect to pay the 
 contractors something for the work you bound him to do, 
 but these bonus-hunters and charter-sellers demand that 
 the men who are to do the work shall pay them something, 
 and so the very first provision is that the contractors shall 
 pay them $15,000. It would be rather interesting to know 
 what the 'honorable engagements' were. Perhaps at a 
 later day I may ciunmunicato to you what they were, but 
 at present I say nothing. The fourth provision is that the 
 existing corporators must retain a majority of the board 
 (which consists ef seven), to protect their interests, 
 they binding themselves not to interfere with fin- 
 ancial arrangements ; or, they will bind themselves 
 to give the contractors a majority on all money 
 outlays, respecting the construction of the road and 
 bridges. When the road is built this may lapse, if 
 desired. Then they demand that !};.')0,0jl0 shall be 
 deposited in the bunks as a guarantee of good faith, 
 which will be forfeited to the president and board of 
 
 C 
 
 directors in the name of the president, C.E. Hickey, if 
 the conditions of the agreement are forfeited. In the 
 seventh clause, thev agree to give the constructors two- 
 thirds of the entire stock of $],.')00,fHIO, so thev will sti'd 
 retain $5(H),0(IO of stock, the contractors getting $1.000,0(X). 
 Then they agree to give all the bonds and bonuses, to- 
 ethcr with any bonuses they may gut hereafter, and the 
 'aiice due on the Morrisburg stock, .*rt,()(H). Then 
 comes the tenth, the lust provision, which is like untii 
 the first. They want a liberal bonus in bonds of the first 
 issue, or cash, for the seven promoters of the road, for 
 labor expended and good-will." 
 
 Mr. HICKKY. .May I ask the lion, gentleman 
 from what he is reading '! 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I am reading from a report of my 
 ajieech delivered at Kendal. 
 
 "The labor expenditure was mainly in getting a subsidy 
 to be paid out of your taxes, and the good-will is in their 
 willingness to get more. So they want $1.5,(M)0 in cash, 
 $500,000 in stocK, and a liberal bonus in first mortgage 
 bonus or cash, as the price of their position. I am not 
 discussing the proprietvof promoters of railway charters 
 —though I confess I have not much confidence in the 
 breed — trying to make the best bargain they can. What 
 I do object to is members of Parliament, who are called 
 upon to say whether it is in the public interest that public 
 money should bo voted to certain railway companies, who 
 are called on to decide on the general legislation of the 
 country, having private interest in those counties and 
 personal relations with t'-e Government, which must 
 conflict with their public duty. This system is altogether 
 a grand scheme for animating with additional fervor, 
 large numbers of Government supporters by the con- 
 sideration that they are to make profit by that support 
 through the establishment of improper relations with the 
 treasury. 
 
 " And as a matter of fact the result is, that what we 
 give out of your taxes to build a road is very largely 
 diverted to line the pockets of members who become 
 promoters of the work and who build the road or sell out 
 the charters to others. I call to you to judge whether 
 this sort of transaction should be allowed. 
 
 Sluntly after I made that sjieech, and it had been 
 reported, tlie lion, member for l)iiiidas(Mr. Hickey) 
 addressed to me a letter in rather angry terms. 
 Vou can judge the kind of letter by the style of 
 speech delivered by the Inni. gentleman the other 
 evening. 
 
 Mr. HICKKY. I will rea<l the letter presently. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I am very glad. I am sorry to say 
 I have not a copy, because I would have eiiliglit 
 eiied the Committee by reading a copy of it. I am 
 not able to do so, but I am glad the letter is to bi; 
 read. I answered that letter, and of the answer I 
 kejit a copy. 
 
 Mr. HICKEY. I base that also. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. It is as foUows :— 
 
 " POIXTE AU Pir, P.Q., 
 
 "August 11th, 1886. 
 
 "Sir,— On my return to Canada after an absence of 
 
 several weeks, I have to acknowledge the receipt of your 
 
 letter of 2"2nd ultimo, in which you use several strong 
 
 expressions in reference to certain statements made by 
 
 me as to your connection with a railway enterprise which, 
 as I conceived, affected your independence as a member 
 of Parliament. 
 
 Did your letter admit tlio substantial accuracy of my 
 statements, I would be very ready to discuss with you 
 anywhere their bearing and eflect on your i>osition as a 
 representative of the people. 
 
 1 " But j'ou deny their accuracy. It must, on reflection, be 
 obvious to you that a ])ublic meeting at which we cannot 
 
 1 compel the attendance and answer of witnesses; or the 
 productiim of documents, or carry on an examination, 
 affords perhaps the least satisfactory ccuiceivable oppor- 
 
 I tunity to get at the truth of disputed facts. 
 
 ' " There is another method, which, though not satisfac- 
 
 I tory, is at any rate better; and should you challenge me 
 to enquiry there, I shall be ready to nrike a statement in 
 the House of Conimonst and to support it by evidence 
 
 I before a Committee. 
 
 :W^'^'^'mm^ 
 
nt. C. E. Hickey, if 
 B lorf'oitod. In the 
 cunstructura two- 
 0, so tliey will sti!l 
 MfCottiiiK*l,000,()0(). 
 Ik imd liormscx, to- 
 t liurualtur, aiul tlie 
 Dcic, p,m). Tlieii 
 whinn ii< Iil<e unto 
 in bimdH of the llrst 
 LTB of tlie rojiJ, for 
 
 le lion, gcntioniuii 
 am a report of my 
 
 y in eettinga subsidy 
 goou-will is in their 
 int $15,(HI0 in eiish, 
 8 in first mortguKe 
 position. I am not 
 I of railway charters 
 ^h confidence in the 
 L,in they can. What 
 ent, who uro called 
 a interest that public 
 Iwn V companies, who 
 al legislation of the 
 those counties und 
 [iment, which must 
 system is altogether 
 1 additional fervor, 
 porters by the coii- 
 i>fit by that support 
 er relations with the 
 
 alt is, that what we 
 oad is very largely 
 mbers who become 
 the road or sell out 
 u to judge whether 
 owed. ' 
 
 , and it had 1>een 
 iudas(Mr. Hickey) 
 her ai\gry terms, 
 .'f l)y the style of 
 iitleinan the otiicr 
 
 letter presently. 
 
 I am sorry to say 
 
 luld have enligiit 
 
 copy of it. I 'ini 
 
 tlie letter is to lie 
 
 (1 of tlie answer I 
 
 TE AuPrr, P.Q., 
 \ugustlUh, 1886. 
 Iter an absence of 
 the receipt of your 
 use several strong 
 tatcments made by 
 ly enterprise which, 
 iileiice as a member 
 
 tial accuracy of my 
 
 discuss with you 
 your position as a 
 
 ust,on reflection, be 
 
 at which we cannot 
 
 )f witnesses, or the 
 
 n an examination, 
 
 conceivable oppor- 
 
 lacts. 
 
 hough not satisfac- 
 
 1 you challenge me 
 I'lke a statement in 
 nil it by evidence 
 
 " I shall be very glad, for your sake and that of tho 
 House, if the testimony shall show that I am misinformed; 
 but at present I regret to bo unable to withdraw tho 
 statements of which you complained, as my information 
 is very positive. 
 
 " For example, I have before mo a paper which I am 
 assured is a copy of a document prepared by you, and 
 from which I extract the following clau.ses. 
 
 " ' 1. We must have ,'j;l,'i.lK)0 payable to the order of our 
 i)resident, Charles K. Hickey, to pay bonds and other 
 nonorable engagements. 
 
 " '4. We must lelain a majority on the board (which con- 
 sists of seven) to protect our interests, binding ourselves 
 nut to interfere with financial arriiiigements ; or, we will 
 liind ourselves to give you a majority on all money out- 
 lavs, respecting the construction <if tho road and bridges. 
 When the roailis built this may lapse if desired. 
 
 "'5. We must have a sum of8ay?i50,00(), deposited in the 
 Molson's Hank hero at our joint credit, as a guarantee of 
 good faith, which sum must be deposited within ten da/s 
 after the signing of our agreement, and which sum will 
 be forfeited to the president and board of directors in the 
 name of tho president, Charles E. Hiekcj;, when the con- 
 ditions of said agreement have been forfeited. 
 
 "'7. We will give two-thirds of the entire stock of 
 i,l,500,0()0, to bo divided eiiiially on the road and the two 
 bridges, i.e., the St. Lawrence River bridge and the 
 Ottawa Kiver bridge. 
 
 " ' 8. We will give all tho bonds and bonuses, together 
 with all bonuses we may got hereafter— the stock taken 
 by tho village of Murrisbiirg, which is to be paid up in 
 full, 1(X) shares, 10 per cent, having been paid tlieie< n, 
 leaving*9,(X)0 still due. 
 
 ' ' 10. We want a liberal bonus in bonds of first issue or 
 
 cash, for the seven promoters of the road, for labor ex- 
 d good-will 
 " Unless thi 
 
 1 
 
 ponded and good-will.' 
 
 " Unless this be a cimcocted paper, with which you had 
 no connection, you will sec that it contains the substance 
 of that part of my statements which you seem most 
 angrily to deny. 
 
 ' I believe it to bo genuine. 
 
 " I am yours, Xc, 
 
 " KDW.\RD BLAKE. 
 " Charles E. Hickey, M.P., 
 " Alorrisburg." 
 
 I sub.se(iuently became, as tlie lion, gentleman is 
 aware, possessed of the original of that document, 
 signed l)y himself. At a suhseijnent period, as 
 apjiears by documents whicji have become jniblic, 
 and which were brongiit before tiie other brancli of 
 the Legislature, tlie j)arties who were concerned in 
 this matter, including the lion, gentleman, liehl a 
 meeting. The minutes of the meeting are these : 
 
 " On the evening of the 11th .June, 1886, at a meeting of 
 the board of the Ottawa, Waddington and New York 
 Railway and liridge Company, held at Morrisburg, tho 
 following resolution was passed: — 
 
 " ' nth June, 1886. 
 " ' Moved by Ira Morgan, seconded by Neil Mclntyrc, 
 That the undermentioned shares of the caiiital stock of 
 the Ottawa, Waddington nnd New York Railway and 
 Bridge Company, be given to the directors for reason, 
 as follows: To W. S. Carman, 2iJ0 shares; to Neil Mc- 
 lntyrc, aw shares; to Ira Morgan, 200 shaii's; to Clias. 
 Odell, 200 shares ; to R. C. Carter, 200 shares ; to Chas. E. 
 Hickey, t)00 8hare.s.'" 
 
 " Friday, 30th July, 1886. 
 
 "The Board mot this day at Morrisburg, when the re- 
 solutions of the last meeting, llth June, were read over 
 and adopted." 
 
 And tills 
 branch : 
 
 statement was read lieforc the other 
 
 ' "8th October, 18S6. 
 
 "I, Charles Odell, called on Dr. Hickey at his house 
 
 in Morrisburg, and asked to see the minute book, not 
 
 .: having been iiresent at the evening session, llth .Tunc, or 
 
 * at that held ;Wtli .July. On lookingoverthe minute book 
 -, I saw and became aware for the first time of the above re- 
 ■ solution— voting the stock to the directors, without any 
 
 • reason assigned. I asked Dr. Hickey whether it was paid 
 up stock in full. He replied : No, certainly not, but it 
 was to be held merely in trust. This I could not under- 
 stand, einisidering we held everything in trust as direc- 
 tors, and it was not only unnecessary to luhipt such a re- 
 solution, but irregular and fraudulent." 
 
 " 20th Gotober, 1886. 
 " Had a meeting of the Board at the Russell House, 
 Ottawa, at 7 p.m., re resolution of llth June before re- 
 ferred to, stood the same in tho book as originally." 
 
 " 21st Ocftibor, 1886. 
 " This is the day of the annual meeting of stockholders 
 for the purpose ol electing a new board ofdirectors for the 
 ensuing year. The said meeting was called f<u' .') o'clock 
 Ii.m,; the board met at 10 a.m. ; nothing done ; adjourned 
 until 2 p.m. ; then met again ; no business of importance 
 before them. I looked over the minute bo<ik and found 
 that an alteration had been madeduringthe interim in the 
 resolution of the llth June giving the stock to directors by 
 scorini} out the word ' reason ' and inserting ' services as 
 full paid up stock.' I at once told the board I repudiated 
 the transiu'tion, and would state so publicly at the^eneral 
 meeting, which I did, explaining all the above circums- 
 tances, considering it to be a fraudulent act, and one I 
 would not be a party to." 
 
 I believe it was what the right lion, gentleman called 
 the little family dilHculties that had arisen in re- 
 gard to these transactions, which I now bring 
 before the attention of theCommittee, that resulted 
 in the formation of the two rival boards of directors, 
 and the attendant commotioii and conttict, which, 
 of coiir.se, would thwart the efforts of any jiarty and 
 dimiiiisli tin; clianees of success. I have only to 
 say tliat I have taken this ojiportunity, when for 
 the first time, since tlie period to which I alluded, 
 a new projiosition is being made by the (iovern- 
 iiieiit to grant a subsidy to this company, and 
 that at the instance of the lion, iiieinber for 
 Dundas (Mr. Hickey), to lay before tlie House 
 these facts, the facts which I stated in the speech 
 wjiicli I have read, the proof of whicli facts are in 
 the clauses of the documents which I liave just 
 read, which I myself abstracted from the docu- 
 ment, and the .siibseiiuent facts witii respect to 
 the allocation of paid-up stock to the directors, in- 
 cluding .5t)0,(K)0 of paid-up stock to the lion, gen- 
 tleman himself. I do so, conceiving tlii't it was my 
 duty, as the hon. gentleman did not tender that 
 challenge, which I invited him to tender to me, 
 upon this subjei^t before the last general election 
 or at any time, it was my duty not to omit the 
 occasion on which the lion, gentleman himself was 
 promoting the grant of a lap.se<l subsidy for this 
 same entei'iirise, under whatever form it may be 
 jiromoted, to lay these facts liefore the Committee 
 and the public. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE, ^'ou take a great deal of nimo- 
 ces.sary trouble, Mr. ('liairiiiau, because we all 
 know that if you acted rigorously on tlie rules 
 which you a])])ly to some lion, gentlemen, you 
 would strike tlic lion, iiiemlicr dumb, because he 
 could not speak at all if he did not use these plirases. 
 The lion, geiitlciiiaii has been good enough to read 
 one of my letters in which I expressed my o|)iiiion 
 of the only effect that abusive epithets have, and 
 to whom alone they are injurious. I have hing 
 entertained that opinion, which I have expressed 
 before, ami which I repeat to-night ; it happily 
 leaves me in a condition of absolute e(|uaniinity 
 under the administration of those epithets both by 
 letter and by word of mouth. He has talked of my 
 being guilty of vicuperation. All I did was to read 
 to you a statement which 1 made some years ago 
 which is, I believe, ab.solutely true, and a letter 
 which I wrote to the lion, gentleman in response 
 to an offen.sive coinmunication of bis, wliicli letter 
 also I believe is absolutely true. It seems from what 
 the lion, gentleman has said, and lii^ is corroborated 
 by the Minister oH'ustoms, 1 think, that 1 used the 
 
of tlie lion, gciilleiiian, 1ml wlu'tluT the ilocuiiiuiit 
 wiiH in Ilia liiuiilwi'iting or not, the (jucstion is 
 
 word " signed " when I sjjoke of this doc\nnent. I 
 have already explained that what I meant to say 
 was that it was in the har. iwiiting of the lion, gen- 
 tleinun. I do not jiersonally know the liandwiiting 
 
 gentleinan 
 
 liandwi'iti 
 whether it is his document. You will oliserve he 
 has not denied his (roniiection with that document, 
 he lius not denied his connection with tliese cliuises, 
 but he professes to defend tlie.se (dauscs. IJut one 
 of the clauses he has not lefened to at all, and it is 
 the one which is the most iiii|iortaiit of all--« 
 clause 10 : 
 
 " Wo want a liberal bonus in bonds of first issue or 
 cash, tor tbo seven promoters of the road, for liibur ox- 
 |)unilcd and good-wilt." 
 
 That was really the clause of the clauses ; and the 
 lion, gentleman has not, with his absolute cer- 
 tainty that he is able to make the statements of 
 that document consistent with propriety — he has 
 not even alluded to that clause at all. I ilo not 
 wish to saj' anything more upon this subject. I 
 have thought tit, at the earliest opportunity I 
 thought proper, to bring this u]). I did not, as 
 the hon. gentleman assumed, say in my letter to 
 the lion, gentleman that I would bring it up in 
 Parliament. I told him that if he challenged me 
 in Parliament, I would answer him. He says there 
 were earlier opportunities, that there were earlier 
 Sessions- ill one of whic^li I was :!ot here, and in 
 another of which I was not able to act when he 
 propounded liills for the incorporation of com- 
 panies. These did not create a public relation 
 between him and the (ioverimient and I'ailiaiiient 
 of this country on account of his interest in the 
 subsidy. The subsidy at that time belonged to the 
 other corjtoration, and I did not conceive that such 
 relation was created, or was projK).seil to be created, 
 till the hon. gentleman bec.ime a promoter of the 
 application for tliLs subsidy, and thus became once 
 more involved in that relation to the (ioveinment 
 and the Parliament of this country, which I con- 
 ceived, having regard to his jjersonal relation to 
 the affairs of the railway (Mimpany, was a rejire- 
 hensible relation, wliich riuglit not to subsist. 
 Upon ascertaining that, and timling that the hon. 
 gentleman was promoting a new enterjirise, and 
 asking for the old subsidy, it .seemed to me that it 
 was fitting I should acijnaint the House; and the 
 couiitiy with the state of facts, \shii:li 1 have 
 brought forward in the extracts from my speech, 
 and in the lettei' which I have read, and these are 
 not ilenied. 
 
 Mr. CHAPLKAU. It is the ordinary clause. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. Ts'o, it is not the piinciple upon 
 which these sub^'idies are given at all. It is a 
 clause wliich is sometimes introduced into aids 
 given to railway companies, but the jirinciple on 
 w'lich the subsidies are given is a mili'age clause ; 
 no matter what the ditllculty of the work may Ix;, 
 so niuc'i ■■■ "lile is given. Tliat is the ordinai'y prin- 
 ciple 
 
 Ml . ..LKAU. No. 
 
 Mr. 1SI.1AKK. Why, then, do we find a special 
 provision here, because all tin; difl'ei'encc then 
 would be that, inst(;ad of paying by .sections of ten 
 miles, we wouhl jiay by the sections given here. 
 If that is what is intended, there is no need for 
 this closing paragraph. 
 
 Sir JOHN A. MACDONALl). The whole 
 amount of the subsidy is .'#.">, Kil per mile. This 
 road passes through a very broken country, so that 
 .some sections will cost much more than others. One 
 section may cost s:."i,(HK> and another only .*!'2,(MH) 
 per mile. There woubl, therefore, lie sutticieni 
 kept back from the less dillicult st^ctions for the 
 purpose of aibling to the assistance given the more 
 <litlicult ones. 
 
 Mr. I>I.,.\KK. That I under.stand, and that i 
 special, and not as the Secretary of State says, tltt 
 ordinary arrangement. 
 
 Mr. CH.APLEAU. This is the ordinary clan.'ic. 
 except that it is not by sections of ten miles. The 
 ordinary idause jiroviiles for payment by sections 
 of t(;n miles ; but in this case eacli section will be 
 jiaid for, jier section of ten miles, according to the 
 prop(irtion of value of those ten miles to the whole 
 work undertaken. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK, No. 
 
 Mr. CHAPLKAU. My lion, friend may say no, 
 but I say yes. If my hon. friend \v ill look at t\v 
 end of all these resolutions, he will find exactly 
 the .same [H'ovision for each ten miles as for eacli 
 of these sections. I may tell my hon. friend tluil 
 the diflicultjiartof this road is bet ween the twentieth 
 and thirtietli mile, 'i'his resolution has not been 
 madt! in tiiis form on ]nir|)ose to diaw subsidies 
 for one .section more than for another ; but it has 
 been so divideil because the Canadian Pacific 
 Railway, in niiiking the agreeirent which has be( n 
 ratified by this Parliament, said they would gna- 
 laiitee a hian of •S4,(MK)on each s(?ction. The clause 
 is the diiiary clause, and the api>ropriation is 
 the .lary uppro]iriatioii. 
 
 ^. iJLAKK. It may be so. 
 Mr. ("HAl'LKAU. It is so. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Then, there is no reason why 
 there should be a special provision here which we 
 do not fiiiil apjiended to the other resolutions at 
 all. In the ca.sc of a railway, in which the pro- 
 ])osed subsidy is more than half as laige again as 
 the ordinary subsi<ly, it becomes all the more 
 neces.sary to take care that the subsidy is not 
 dis])roportionalely ex))endcd on some |)ortions of 
 the line ; and although in princi))le there can be 
 no olijection at all to a jiropoi tionate cxpeniliturc, 
 yet that necessarily involves a very careful instru 
 mental suivey and estimate right up to tin; end of 
 tiie whole .seventy miles, as otherwise the subsidy 
 may be found to come very short indeed. Tlu^i-c 
 may be but a ])erfuiictory examination and 
 valuation; the diflicult sections may a|)|)ear to br 
 those which have fiist to lie gra|)i)led with, is the 
 ditliculties which have to be met a year or two later 
 may appi'ar less tlian those whicli are nearest. 
 So it is absolutely necessary, if that is to bi; done, 
 particularly when the subsidy appeals to be laigci' 
 ill proportion to the whole cost of the work than 
 is usual, that tlu; examination and survey should 
 be complete and that we slnmld ha\e an aecoiiiii 
 of how many more riveis we have to cross. .So I 
 think it is desirable that we should know tli" 
 ditliculties whicii may occur. There is another 
 vote later on for liie t^tucibec and Lake St. .lolin 
 Railway. We have already gi\eii a large subsiils 
 to that railway, but it is not the .Secrcitary ol 
 .State who takes a paternal interest ill that, bu: 
 the Minisler of. Militia, and his tniii will cona 
 
 . I see 
 ^' vote 
 ; altogi 
 1. tiiat i 
 • .ire IK 
 ( ment 
 
 I .,. 
 
 i of N. 
 
 1 coinni 
 5 leived 
 
 J A ova ; 
 I been 
 
.1). The whole 
 pel' mile. Tiiis 
 II eountiy. ao thai 
 lli'iii others. Oiir 
 other only .*!1.',(HH) 
 ore, !)e HUllieienl 
 t sectioii.s for tlii' 
 ue given tiie inoie 
 
 tiiiiil, mill that i 
 of State say.M, tKc 
 
 a ordinary claiisi'. 
 of ten miles. The 
 iiient hy .sections 
 h .section will lie 
 , according to the 
 iiiles to the wliol' 
 
 ■ien<l may say no. 
 I will look at th'^ 
 will find exactly 
 miles us foi' eaeli 
 y lion, friend thai 
 I'een the twentieth 
 ion has not lieen 
 <) draw snlisidies 
 itiier ; l)iit it has 
 Canadian I'lieilic 
 lit wiiieh has heen 
 tiicy wonld gua- 
 ictioii. The elau.'ie 
 apiirojiriation is 
 
 no roa.son wliv 
 
 here whii^h we 
 
 risolntions at 
 
 which the pin- 
 
 largo again as 
 
 1 all the more 
 
 suhsidy is nol 
 
 >nw. |)oitions ot 
 
 |ile there can he 
 
 ate expenditure. 
 
 •y careful instrn- 
 
 up to the end of 
 
 isc the suhsidy 
 
 indeed. Tliere 
 
 :aminalion and 
 
 ay a])pear to he 
 
 )led witli, ts the 
 
 year or two hitiir 
 
 lich are nearest. 
 
 at is to 1((^ done, 
 
 ills to lie larger 
 
 it tlie work tlimi 
 
 i survey shoiihl 
 
 a\c an accoiini 
 
 to cross. So 1 
 
 (luld know the 
 
 riiere is another 
 
 Lake .St. .lohii 
 
 a large snlisidy 
 
 he ,Sccr('tary of 
 
 st in (hat, hii; 
 
 I urn will coiiie 
 
 I sec that in tluit eoniieetion wo are to IxMisked to 
 vote a sum for a liridge, which is something ' 
 altogether new. 1 simply nienlion this to sluiw ' 
 " that it is important that we slioiild see tliat we ; 
 are not led into further expenditures than I'arlia 
 inent expects to grant. 
 
 i Mr. liLAKK. I have no douht that that iiortion i 
 i of Xova .Scotia to which this resolution refers, in 1 
 I common with ct'rtain other portions wliich have re- ] 
 5 ceived a.ssistaiice at \ arioiis late Sessions, has lieeii 
 ■; very niucli iieglccteil, and its progress retarded for 
 ' I lie want of railway communication. I think it is 
 ileejily to he regretted in tlie interest of the whole 
 I'idvinceof A ova.Scotia that what I must call the prof- 
 ligate railway expenditure which has taken jilace in 
 other parts of that Province, should lia\o resulted 
 i In a failure to met't the real wants of liie Province. 
 The expenditure which has taken Jilace in connec- 
 tion with llie Oxford and Xcw (llasgow Uraiich, 
 li<'iiig constructed at the Dominion ex]ien.se, and 
 other transactions whicii liave resulted in linos 
 now constructed at the Dominioii expense, have 
 produced this result : that the gross sum whii'li the 
 Dominion has paid, and f<ir which it is now liahle, 
 shows a very unilue disiiroportion in Nova Scotia 
 relatively to the otlicr Provinces. Take tiic lines 
 to whicli I lia\e referred in the counties of ( 'uni- 
 lierland, Colclicstcr and Pictou, and taU(.' the Cajie 
 Ureton Railway wliitli is hciiig (ronstructeil wholly 
 
 Iat the expense of tlie Dominion ; take the line in con- 
 nection with tlie (iiit of Canso, wliich has lieen 
 aci|uircd at the expense of the Dominioii, and you 
 ; find this large mileage of railways, some of them 
 ^ proiluciiig hardly any apprecialile Dominion result 
 « at all, others )iroducing some good result, no doulit. 
 ^I will re|)eat what I said on a former occasion in 
 ; the cotirse of tliis very lavisii cx|Kiiditiire for Xova 
 : Scotia, when ! found in that region witli wiiii;h we 
 are now dealing, an alisence of apiiropriation alto- 
 gether- -I say this region is de.sciving of consiilera- 
 ation, and I only wish the enormous expt^nditure 
 j in Xo\a Scotia, on the part of the Dominion, had 
 ■ hoeii more jiuliciously made, and then it would not 
 * he found necessary to gi\e this grant, which will 
 not answer the whole exigencies of that Province, 
 ' and may he inadeipiate to answc. this particular 
 ,; purpose. I tliiiik we would have found plenty of 
 i iiioui^y, on tile general princi]ilcs wiiiiii we have 
 applied in aiding railways for local purposes in 
 Nova Scotia, to (hi everytliing that <iughl to^have 
 been done. 
 
 To the Iiiveriu'ss mid l^icliiiinnfl R.-iilwiiy Cmiiiiiiiiy. for 
 .T(l miles of their riiilwa.v tioin Port llinvki'sbiiiy to liroiul 
 Cove, a subsidy not excoeiliiig .■jsl.UOO per mile, iiorexceud- 
 iiiK ill the wliole .i;")l),(ll)(l. 
 
 Sir.lOHX TMOMPSOX. This is a line of rail- 
 way riiiiiiing on the northern side of tlie Island of 
 ("a|ie llreton. It was fully discussed licforc tiie Kail- 
 way ( 'ominittee this Session, and the ciiarter <if tiiis 
 compaiiy was |iroteeted from interference liy the re- 
 jection of another charter. The railway is t<i connect 
 with the (iovernmeni railway at Port llawkeshury 
 and to run ahing tlie coast towards Port Hood and 
 IJroadCove. Thatsi liMif the Island is studded with 
 coal deposits, all of whicii are recognised as lieing 
 hiu'lily iinjiortant aiut extcnsi\('. Tlie const met ion 
 of the road, after it leaves Port, Mood, towards 
 Kroad Cove, is not very diliicult. Tiii^ eoiii]iaiiy is 
 incorpc.natod by the Provincial Legislature, which 
 
 will prolialily siilmidisc it ; the County of Inver- 
 ness has likewi.se sulisidi.sed it. The information 
 that 1 have in reganl to it is that the construction 
 of the fifty miles along that const towards Itroiid 
 Cove, is not a very ditHcult pii^ce of work, and for 
 that rea.son we are <itdy asking for a subsidy of 
 !3!.")(I,(HH), which is little more than .^L<HKI ]ier mile, 
 in addition to whicii it receives a provincial subsidy 
 of .s; (,•_'( K I per mile, and ex|)ects to receive a muni- 
 cipal subsidy as well. Tiie lino as authorised by 
 the Piovincial Legislature, extends beyonil that to 
 tiie northern jioint of the Island, but tin? construc- 
 tion there is altogether problematical, anil unlikely 
 to take place for many years to come. It likewise 
 includes a branch from IJroad I'livo to <irand 
 Xarrows, \s liicli |iortion of the work we are not 
 asking to subsidise. We are asked to subsidise 
 those portions which, I understand, the Provincial 
 Legislature has siibsidi.sed. 
 
 .Mr. HLAKK. Do I iinder.stanil tliat§l,(KH» a 
 mile is all that was asked '! 
 
 Sir dOHN THO.MP.SOX. It is not all that 
 was asked by the company, but it was all that 
 was asked by the friends of the enterjiriso in the 
 county. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. 1 looked hurriedly over tlie 
 papers and it seemed not only that this amount was 
 asked, but that the Provincial F.,egislat lire's agree- 
 ment to grant a subsidy was dcpeiiilent on the action 
 of tiiis Parliiiineiit, and I was ap)irehensivo that wo 
 would find ourselves told next .Session that the 
 arrangement iiad faileil, and it was necessary to 
 grant a larger sum. I observe by the Kstimates, 
 whicii we fortunately have in this ca.se, and wc 
 lia\e a little more information than usual, that the 
 road is not an expensive one and that the County 
 of Inverne.ss gives .S|(M),(MKI. 
 
 Sir .lOHX THO.MPSOX. The agreement iiro- 
 viiles that the County of Inverness shall give not 
 less than .S,"i(),(HMI spread o\ er these fifty miles. 
 
 .Mr. HLAKK. That is sl,(Kl(» jier mile; then 
 there is tliis .ts.'l, •_'()<> ]ier mile outside of the Provin- 
 cial subsidy. Has the lion. Minister of .lu.stieo 
 .satisfied himself rea-sonably that the scheme of the 
 company can lie carried out as regards the fifty 
 miles for .S."),2(K) per mile 'i 
 
 Sir JOHN THO.MPSOX. I have, to a rea.sonable 
 extent. The .satisfaction I have had on that point 
 is to this extent : The company, while jiressing 
 very strongly its claims for subsidies on the 
 Diiiuinion and the Pinvincial ( iovernment, actually 
 went to work and built and graded a considerable 
 mileage without liaving any contract witli the 
 (io\erimieiit, and they lia\e spent a very consider- 
 able sum of iMoney. I think they have graded 
 about twenty-five miles. They have, moreovor, 
 entered into cimtracts for a large sujijily of ties 
 and so on. 'i'hc (larties making the advances arc 
 ca]iitalists, whose means I am assureil of ; but, in 
 addition, tiu^ eoiii]iaiiy have secured the a.ssistaiice 
 of cajiitalists in the Province, who have ])laced a 
 considerabh' sum in the enterprise, and they 
 have done so witiiout any assurance that it will 
 receive even the onlinary subsidy. .Mthough the 
 portion of tile district through which the railway 
 runs is lint a x-ery populous one, its indications of 
 strong support from jier.sons connected with that 
 liait of the country, some of them are my per.sonal 
 irieiids, indicate to me that the company has more 
 
8 
 
 liKckiii^ tlmn I would have oxpccted it, ns a new 
 enterprise of tluH kind. The cr)nii)any Ims jjone 
 forward at the risk of no aid heinfj given. I do 
 not wiM'.i the Hoime to iniderHtand that tliis in the 
 total amount asked Ity the coniiiany, but this aid, 
 togetiier with that of the Local ( iovernnient, will 
 enable the company to carry out the undertaking, 
 I am told. TlieOovernment at a future time might 
 tiiink proper, in answer to an application by the 
 company, to subsidise the branch from Broad Tove. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I am very glad to hear the state- 
 ment of the lion. Ministei, because those wiio 
 recollect the first stage thi'ough which a little 
 scheme j)as8etl, will renicmber that it was urged 
 that the C'ape Breton Railway was to be a simple 
 subsidise<l road, and that we were to provide the 
 necessaiy railway conununication at very small 
 cost. \Ve recollect that in the end the Dominion 
 Parliament were called on to undertake the builil- 
 ing of that railway, certainly not with any view 
 that we should be called to give further aid to 
 C'a'Jc Breton. An examination of the route of the 
 rai way made it ])lain that it diil not serve any very 
 im )ortant railway ])\irposes witi' respect to the 
 re ion to which the lion, gentleman is referring, 
 •ind it was clear tliat if railway acconnnodation 
 were re(juire<l for Cape Breton there would still be 
 a gap to be tilled some other day. 
 
 For complotiiiR tho Montreal and Sorel Railway Com- 
 pany, from Montreal to Sorel, SW.tXXt. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. 1 ihougiit this railway was a 
 built railway, and a bonded railway, and a fondled 
 railway. 
 
 Sir -lOHN A. MACDOXALD. It was built 
 some years ago and was for a time oijcrated by the 
 (iraud Trunk Railway, but tliey refused to continue 
 to operate it on account of its lieing .so dilaiiidated. 
 \V'c then granted a subsidy to i)ut it in safe condi- 
 tion for traffic, but tinoiigli lack of funds it was 
 allowed to get into disrepair and was partially 
 closed. The jjresent subsidy is to give aid to put 
 it in good repair. 
 
 Mr. LAURIKR. I would ask the lion, gentle- 
 man if lie has taken the trouble to obtain a state- 
 ment from this company as to liow this money has 
 been a])plied '' When a company which has been in 
 o|)eration like this one, comes again .seeking fiivoi 
 from the (lovcrnmcnt, it seems to me, that the 
 least they should do is to liave their books au-'ited 
 by the (loveriiment to see how the iiiouey was 
 applied. 1 believe that if there iiad been proper 
 management of that road, tiiere is no reason why 
 it siioiild be in a dilapidated condition to-day. 
 This railway is built through an even country, it 
 has been favored, I understand, l)y grants of 
 right of way, tliere is no river, between Montreal 
 and Sorel, except the Richelieu, and they have no 
 bridge over the Richelieu, and it seems to me that 
 no railway could be built at a clieaper ])rice than 
 this one. It seems a very cxtiaordinary thing that 
 a roatl, wliicli has been in operation for not more 
 than eight years, if that long, should be in such a 
 dilapidated condition now. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. This seems to be one of those 
 roads, 1 tliink among the earliest of the latter 
 series of roads, wliicli has been the c^au.se of very 
 great discredit to this country, by reason of the 
 operations on the London market, of those who 
 were concerned in it. The most severe reHections 
 
 have l>cen made upon the persons who were con- 
 cerned in the issue of the bonds of tills road, and 
 Canadian credit generally has suffered very much 
 by it. If a company, after building a road in this 
 way, and after actually opening their road, comes 
 to Parliament and obtains a grant in order to 
 repair it an<l enable it to be opened again, gets that 
 g.ant, uses it or misuses it, T know not which, keep 
 the road o])en for a little while longer, then closes 
 it again, and comes back to Parliament for another 
 grant in or<ler to put the road in re|)air so that it 
 may be operated where is this to stoj) ? What 
 guarantee in the world have we, if we make this 
 grant, that this sort of thing is not to goon for 
 ever? This conditicm of things seems to me to be 
 intolerable. A business-like inspection of the 
 affairs of the company should have been made in 
 the first ))lace to see that the managenient of the 
 road was such that the aid jiroposed to be given 
 would put it in |)roper repair, but now we find the 
 rf)ad closed again, and we are called u])on to pay 
 money to keep it open. Where is this going to 
 stop? 
 
 Sir JOHN A. MACDONALl). The first vote 
 was !i!l,(i(M) a mile, and 1 suppose that the money 
 raised in addition to that sum by bonds and other- 
 wise was iiisuthcient to make the roa<l a first-class 
 jiermanent road. There was a great deal of trestle 
 work, wliicli partly accounts for the road getting 
 into disrejiair. 1 dare .say that if it had got 
 .?.'J,2(H) a mile it would liav(! l)een built as a first- 
 class railway, as it ought to have been built. But 
 when we are informed — I was not aware of the 
 fact until just now — that the road got only half 
 the subsidy given to other railways, I think the 
 hon. gentleman can well allow this road to be (lut 
 into full and complete repair. The first building 
 of the railway was carried on by the company, 
 and all the (•overiimeiit had to do was to examine 
 10 miles when built. However, this nioncy will 
 not be given at all to the company. Warned by 
 previous experience, we have decided that the 
 money shall be expended under the direction of 
 the (iovernnient officers just as if it were a(ioveni- 
 ment railway. 
 
 .Mr. HL.AKK. The lion, gentleman says that 
 this road would probably be all right if the com- 
 pany hail lieforc received ."i>;{,l!(Kl a mile. But wc 
 Oil this side of tlie House knew that it had received 
 only .'JI,()(M) a mile, and wc knew the reason why. 
 It was because this road was built and running 
 when the system of subsidies was invented, ami 
 the amount of J*! ,()()() was to repair it. It was not 
 to Indld tb.e road ; but it was so badly built or was 
 .so old, or the com|)any had managed it so badly, that 
 the road had got worn out, and to repair it and 
 make it as good as new, the hon. gentleman made 
 that grant. This time the comjiany are not to be 
 trusted ; but we all know that tlie (lovei'nmentarc 
 to be trusted ; they never make extravagant 
 exjienscs ; they are cionomical ; and so the hem. 
 gentleman gives us to understand that this econom- 
 ical and wise (iovernnient will take charge of the 
 exjienditure of this money. But wliat security 
 have we that tiie roa<l will be kept in re|)air after 
 that? First, the company built tlie road; then 
 they ran it down ; we subscribed SI, (MM) a mile to 
 got it rejiaired again ; then they ran it down 
 again ; and now we ai'e to vote .'S>4(),(KK) to repair 
 it again. What certainty have we that the road 
 
 wim^'*i':^^Mi^"m:' 
 
 ^fcjmi^':"^ 
 
iiH wlio were con- 
 of tliiH I'oiul, and 
 suffered very imieli 
 (ling a road in tliiH 
 tiieir road, conieis 
 giant in order to 
 ncd again, getH tliat 
 i)\v not wiiich, keep 
 longer, then eloKos 
 liauient for another 
 I repair ho that it 
 8 to stop ? What 
 c, if we make tluH 
 Is not to go on for 
 1 seems to me to he 
 inspection of the 
 have been made in 
 iianagement of the 
 iposed to be given 
 ut now we find the 
 ailed upon to pay 
 re is this going to 
 
 ). The first vote 
 we that the money 
 y bonds and other- 
 le road a first-class 
 ;reat deal of trestle 
 r the road getting 
 hat if it had got 
 ;n Imilt as a first- 
 •e been built. Hut 
 
 not aware of tiie 
 road got <mly half 
 Iways, 1 think the 
 .his road to be put 
 The first building 
 
 by the company, 
 lo WHS to examine 
 r, this money will 
 lany. Wained by 
 
 decided tliat the 
 ir the dircctiim of 
 f it were a (lovern- 
 
 I) 
 
 tleman says that 
 
 riglit if the com- 
 
 i mile. Hut wc 
 
 at it had received 
 
 w the reason why. 
 
 ")uilt and running 
 
 ivas invented, and 
 
 lir it. It was not 
 
 )adly built or was 
 
 ed it so badly, that 
 
 to rejiaii- it antl 
 
 gentleman made 
 
 any are not to be 
 
 ( iovermuentarc 
 
 ake extravagant 
 
 ami so the lion. 
 
 that this econom- 
 
 ake charge of the 
 
 ut what security 
 
 pt in i-epair aftei- 
 
 t the road ; then 
 
 Jiil,(i(M) a mile to 
 
 ley ran it down 
 
 !j!40,(HK) to repaii' 
 
 w« tliat the roa(" 
 
 will not be run down again ? There must be some- 
 thing wrong with the nmd or « ith tiie i^oi poralors, 
 .? perhaps with both. If the lioii. gentleman Iiad 
 .! explained to us how this load, after l>eiug once 
 ■ Imilt, could not be kept o))en, ami how aftei' having 
 ; licen once ivpairccl, it could not lie kept cipen a 
 > .second time, ami how the same thing was not 
 '; going to occur after this third grant, we might 
 i have some reason for it. We know nothing of the 
 ,i cau.se of tlie former failui'es, and we know not 
 ': tliat the sai'ie caii.st' may not continue to exist ami 
 • produce a third failuie. 
 
 I 
 
 To the Pontiac Pacific .Tiuictinn Unilwny Company 
 for 7J miles of tlii^ir railway, from Hull lo Aylmer, a sub- 
 sidy not cxct^LMlliii/ ,-^3,2(Kl |)cr mile, nor cxccodiiit? in the 
 whole, S'.'J.WX). 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. This seems to be another iiuio- 
 vation. It is not a subsidy to build a railway or 
 •; to repair a railway ; it is a subsidy with reference 
 ; to some 7i miles of a railway which already exists 
 < and is in repair ; it is to assist the Pontiac I'acilic 
 ' .lunctioii Hallway Company to buy that jiieee of 
 road from the Canadian I'acltic Railway ('omjiany. 
 The Cauadiau I'acific Railway Company can 
 ', either lease it or sell it to the I'ontiac Pacific 
 tlunction Railway Company ; but the proposition 
 ; is that we sliall contribute towards the jmrcliase 
 money the sum of .•?.'}, 2(H( a mile. Wiiat jiublic 
 interest in the way of development Is to be served 
 Ity this subsidy '! Tlie road is not going to be solil 
 ■ at more than it is worth, and if the Pontiac Pacific 
 , I unction Comi»iiuy Imy it at what it is worth, 
 they can ail'ord to jiay what it Is woitii. Hut I 
 believe this is not the first time that we have Ix^en 
 called on to pay for this road, for T think it Is part 
 of the (,)uebcc, Montreal, Ottawa and Occidental 
 Railway, which was built by the Province of Que- 
 bec, and was .sold by the Province of (Quebec to the 
 Canadian Pacific Railway ('oiii])any at a discount, 
 and in respect of which this Parliament afterwards 
 contributed to the Province of (jlueliec a large sum, 
 about, I think, !?1,(HM),(KH), to make u)) the dif- 
 ference between the cost and the value of theroail. 
 The Province of (Quebec having on the sale lost a con- 
 sideralde sum, it appealed to us in reference 
 to the general proposition of the exteiisi(m east- 
 . ward of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It a])- 
 pealed to hon. gentlenien opposite in various ways. 
 It ap])ealed by jietition ; it a])pealed by memorials ; 
 it a))])ealed, not by open reiire.sentatioiis in Parlia- 
 ment but by the convention inXo. S ; anilitsuccec(le<l 
 i in obtaining a large grant from tlie Dominion reve- 
 ( nues to make good its loss on that operation. The 
 Dominion paid the loss to the Province of (i)uebec, 
 or so much as it was thought e(|uitalile to Jiay, in 
 resi)ect of the whole line which had been sold; 
 j the Canadian Pacific Haihvay had acijuiicd it, 
 and I thought we were ipiit of It. Tiicn the Pon- 
 tiac Pacific asked for leave to ac(juire it, and tlie 
 ' ("auadian Pacific Railway got leave to dispose of 
 ', it. Why then should we step in now anil pay 
 .S'24,tHM> more to the Pontiac Pacific Junction 
 ;; Railway Conipauy, to eiialde it to pay a part of the 
 :' price of the aciiuisition of this railway. I observe 
 ^ that the ajiplication made in this rejiort asks the (!ov- 
 t ermiient, in making the grant or any other grant 
 to tiie Pontiac Pacific .) unction Railway, to 
 J have regard to the creditors of tlie road, those 
 V emi>loyedoii the road, and also to the interests of the 
 " county. >Sonie of us may yet remeinber the cir- 
 
 cumstances connected with the earlier agitations 
 for subsidies for this road, a considerable |M)rtion 
 of wliicli have been paiil, and some of which, I 
 lielime, remain as yet nniiaid, in which it turned 
 out tliat an understumling had been reached 
 between the authorities on liehalf of the 
 County of Pontiac and the railway itself 
 that, for whatever aid the representatives of 
 the County of Pontiac might be able to ac(iuiro 
 from a kindly and jiaternal (Jovernment and a 
 generous people, the County of Pontiac should 
 receive credit, I believe, from time to time. The 
 county of Pontiac hail given $1(K),(MM) in bonds as 
 its ccmtribution to this road ; and if Parliament 
 here were to grant #I()(),(KK) or *.")(),(H»<» towards 
 that railway, then Pontiac county was to get the 
 lieiiefit of it ; so that the application made to us 
 here, and which wius conceded, was in Hubstance, 
 although not in terms, a grant in ease of the county 
 of Pontiac, to save it from the payment of its 
 municipal bonus. I believe this was the arrange- 
 ment, although it was not signed, sealed, or defined 
 in some formal instrument. I believe it is not 
 yet, but ])eriiaps may be implemented. Hut 
 sucli it was. I think the hon. the Secretary of 
 State, who, I am glati to say, has just come in, has 
 a good deal to <lo with this railway. He and 
 Mr. Church and a few others were the board of 
 directors ; and during the period of theearlierevents 
 of which I have spoken, the hon. gentleman was 
 interested, to a very large extent, in the road. I 
 do not know if his interest still continues, but I 
 siiould like to know from the (iovernment how it 
 is that, under these circumstances, it is proposed 
 we should purchase, on behalf of a railway com- 
 pany, an existing railway, which that company is 
 able to ae(]uire at its value, and in respect of which 
 we have already expended (juite a considerable 
 sum. 
 
 Mr. C;HAPLKAU. I had no interest in that 
 road, and I am not interested in defending this 
 vote. A sul)sidy was voted in 18S4 for a line from 
 Hull to Pembroke. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. No ; it was from Hull or Aylmer. 
 
 Mr. CHAPLEAU. From Hull or Aylmer? 
 That is to say, it was from Hull. In 1S84, the 
 House voted a subsidy from Hull to Pembroke. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. From Hull or Aylmer ? 
 
 To the Quebec Central Rnilway Company, for90 miles of 
 their railway, from St. Praneis Station on the Quebec 
 (Viitral Rnilway to a point on tlio Atlantic and North- 
 \Vc.*(orn Railway, near JMooso River, or from ii point on 
 thcQiicliec Central Railway between the Chaudiiire River 
 and King station, to ii point on the Interniitional Railway 
 at or near Luke MeKantic, in lieu of the .subsidy granted 
 by the Act 51 V'ictoria, chapter 3, a subsidy not exceeding 
 .■^;21,11ll.r)4 per iinnum for twenty years, or a guarantee of 
 11 like sura tor a like period, as interest on the bonds of 
 the (Company, such annual subsidy for twenty years 
 representing a grant in cash of $288,000. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Was the subsidy formerly grant- 
 ed otherwise than in this shape ? 
 
 Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD. Always, with 
 the guarantee and all. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I suppose we do not guarantee the 
 bonds until construction. 
 
 Sir JOHN A. MACDONALU. The hon. gentle- 
 man will see that the cimditions are set forth in the 
 latter part of these resolutions. 
 
10 
 
 To the Quebec and Lake 8t, .lolin Railway Company, for 
 a railway briilct*! over tin- St. ("ImrlcB Hivcr, to giv« accesn 
 to the (;ily of Qiit'lKM', a sulwidy not to cxeccU in the 
 wlmlu S.'ID.tKXl; iilso for ll! niiloii of tlicir railway from 
 lioretfo ri'i} Cluirli'Kliourg, to yiicheo, a onlwiily not (ex- 
 ceeding $8,2110 pur inilv, nor cxceediiiK in tlio wholu 
 $%,400-iU8,4<)0. 
 
 .Sir.JOHN A. MACIM^NALI). TliiH loii.l now 
 coniiucts with tlio ('iinailiiiii I'iioilic Hallway about 
 five miles out of (^uclxic ; they have fouml it a 
 rounilaliout way of tuaehiiig (^uehee, and the line 
 liu8 to onuouiiter u very heavy grii<le. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. 
 briilge ? 
 
 What is the eatiniutcd co8t of the 
 
 Sir ADOLPHK CAT ON. Ui)warcl.s of .««2(K»,(HK). 
 It Ih a very large; hridge, orosMing the River .St. 
 ('hurles oppowite the gas works. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. What is the estimated cost of 
 the 12 miles of the roud ? 
 
 Sir ADOLPHK CARON. It is an expensive 
 piece of roail. I have not got the estimate, liut 
 the right of way is very expensive, as it comes 
 down through one of the best ])ortionsof the ccmn- 
 try. .S(mie of the grades are heavy. 
 
 Mr. BL.\KE. We all know that it wouhl cost 
 more than !?.S,'2<K) a mile. That is a heavy jjiece of 
 road, tlie right of way is going to he expensive, it 
 isgoingtoincludetheterniini. .Sothiswillamountto 
 .*'24(),(NM) for the railway and .t2(K),(HH> forthebridge, 
 or^4<»,(XH», to which must be added .*(i(>,(HK) for 
 pickings, whicli is very moderate in that locality, 
 or in all half a million (h)llars. Hut the road has 
 already access to the city of Quebec over the Cana- 
 dian Pacific Railway, and it is thus ])roposed to 
 spend half a million dollars to give tliem better 
 facilities for entering the city. I think that this 
 proposed grant coulil be very much Ijctter ex- 
 pended. 
 
 To the St. John Valley and RiviJro dn I/inp Rjiilway 
 Company, for 22 miles of their railway from the villiinc of 
 Prince William towards the town of Woodstock, in lieu 
 of the subsidy granted by the Act 50-51 Victoria, chapter 
 24, a subsidy not cxocedinR $3,200 per mile, nor exceeding 
 in the whole $70,400. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. But the lion, gentleman mustre- 
 mendter that, although the First Minister may de- 
 sire to calm the perturl)ed feelings of tlie hon. 
 member for Albert (Mr. Weldoii), the First Minis- 
 ter is going to throw the wliole comnumity into a 
 state of agitation, for the hon. gentleman has 
 already said that the Intercolonial was burden 
 enough for this country to ))ear, and that he had 
 no idea of Uiking ovei the branches. 
 
 INDIAN ADVANCKMKNT ACT. 
 
 Mr. liL.VKK. ! wish to remark on only one 
 section of this Bill, that is, section !). If I under 
 kI'mmI the Minister aright, he says it is introduced 
 at the rt'ijuest of some council of the Indians ; but 
 1 do not tliink even that circumstance, extraor- 
 diiuiry as it is, is a justification for the introduc 
 tion of this provision in tlie Statute-book of 
 Canada. That .section provides for the punishment 
 by iin])risonment of any Indian ]iroved guilty of 
 deserting his or her family, wife or husbanil, as 
 the case may be, without just cause, or of living in 
 concubinage. I do not see on what princijile we can 
 undertake to ajiply very much more severe jieniil- 
 tles, (;r a higher standard of morality to Indians, 
 than we jiropose to enforce among the white popu- 
 lation of this country. You say the Indians are 
 less advanced than we are, that they occujiy a 
 lower position in morality, that some of them are 
 )iagans, that the Christianity of some of them is 
 not as high as we Iniast our own to be ; they arc 
 to be guarded carefully ; but then why in the world 
 should you )iro])ose to enforce, by the criminal law, 
 the.se pidvisions against them when you do not in 
 the same way enforce such ]>rovisions against 
 whites ? 
 
 On section 11, 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. The words "an Indian on the 
 reserve " would mean un Indian who lives on a 
 reserve. 
 
 Mr. PATKRSON (Brant). This will be cir- 
 cumscribing their liberty very much. You would 
 not be allowed to go on a reserve and have any 
 dealings with the Indians, not even to sell to them 
 for cash. 
 
 Mr. DEWDNEY. This is to prevent traders 
 from starting stores on a reserxe without consent. 
 
 Mr. PATKRSON (Brant). In absolutely forbid- 
 ding any trading on a reserve, you wouhl i)revent 
 Indians engaging in jierfectly legitimate dealings. 
 This, of course, applies to all the bands. Take the 
 reserve in my riding, where the Indians are ad- 
 vanced. They engage in buying horsci and cattle, 
 and if they should do so on the reserve it would 
 be illegal. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. You had better apply your law 
 to the locality in which the mischief arises and not 
 anywhere else. 
 
 Mr. McNeill. Very often traders bring 
 liipior with them on to the reserve to sell to the 
 Inilians. In my constituency the Indian agents 
 have comjilained of men coming on the reserve to 
 trade but really to sell liipior. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Better amend the clause by 
 making this portion refer only to Mauiioba and 
 the North-West. 
 
 i 
 
 OTTAWA :— Printed by Bkown Chambeklin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
 ::&it^p?««^;i?B;31\ • #■■ 3^ 
 
;nt A(rr. 
 
 imrk on only one 
 III !t. If I uiitler 
 'H it JM iiitroditcuil 
 
 till' IiiiliiuiH ; but 
 iiiHtaiK'c, extraor- 
 for the inti-odiic 
 
 Stiitutu-lxtok of 
 'or the piiiiiHliiiifiit 
 
 j)rovecl guilty of 
 fc or iiusliiinci, UN 
 UHc, or of living in 
 it i)rincij)le we can 
 iiore severe j)enal- 
 irality to IniliauM, 
 ig the white ])oj)U- 
 y the IniliuuH are 
 at they occupy a 
 Home of them arc 
 
 some of them is 
 I to l)e ; they arc 
 1 why in tiie world 
 ' the criminal law, 
 len you do not in 
 iroviHiouM against 
 
 an Indian on the 
 ,n who lives on a 
 
 This will 1)0 cir- 
 inch. You woulil 
 erve and have any 
 ven to sell to thcni 
 
 fi pi'event traders 
 without consent, 
 absolutely forbid- 
 on would ])revent 
 timate dealings, 
 bands. Take the 
 Indians are ad- 
 lorses and cattle, 
 eserve it wouhl 
 
 «!' 
 
 fiouse of Cominons jpcbates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ! ON TIIE 
 
 INTERPRETATION ACT AMENDMENT, 
 
 AND 
 
 CRIMINAL LA^^^ AMENDMENT. 
 
 TIIURSDAY, APRIL IOtii, 1890. 
 
 apply your law 
 >ief arises and not 
 
 traders bring 
 ;rve to sell to the 
 le Indian agcnt.s 
 on the reserve to 
 
 the clause by 
 to Mauiioba and 
 
 lent Majesty. 
 
 Mr. 15LAKK. I would very much like to know, 
 
 •in fuller detail from the lion. Minister of Ju.stice, 
 
 jihow far these proposed alterations are in accord 
 
 jfwith what he undeistands to be the present practice 
 
 ^of interpreting statutes in the same regard in 
 
 England, and to wliat extent they are in accord 
 
 Avith what has been adopted in the Provinces ; 
 
 liecause I cannot conceive anything of greater con- 
 
 .eecjuence than that we should not without reaison 
 
 create diversities in the principles of interju'etation. 
 
 't)ur great difficulty, I might almost .say our great 
 
 iBcnndal, at jiresent, is tiie uncertainty of the law, 
 
 .ftnd if we change the principle of interpretation, 
 
 Ave deprive ourselves of the ligtit given by the 
 
 great body of judicial construction to statutes. 
 
 I Mr. BLAKE. It seems to me reasonable that 
 Tvve shouhl not repeal any Act which is not in force, 
 uf we perform the unnecessary ojieration of doing 
 ;that, we expose ourselves to the judicial view tliat 
 ,*we are doing something that we think necessary, 
 iand that we tlid suppose that it was in force or we 
 Jehould not have repealed it. Of course, we are 
 Ijust now passing a law for all time — not to meet 
 icontingencies which we have already got rid of, 
 j|or the case of obsolete laws ; but we are adopt- 
 Ting a canon of construction and inter jiretation 
 §which is to apply to Acts of Parliament which 
 |!iave been passed since Confederation, and which 
 fwill be passed in the future. Taking it as a general 
 Iproposition, that as law makers we do not under- 
 Stake to repeal a law that is not in force, it is a fair 
 inference, from the fact of our repealing it, that 
 jwe assumed that it was then in force. \\'hat 
 dread, from the whole plan of the Bill, is that 
 9ome of those landmarks of decision, those judicial 
 Inferences which have been draw-n from time to 
 time, may be got rid of — that everything may l)e 
 left at large and loose to create fresh uncertainty 
 IS to the construction and interpretation of the 
 law. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. That is just tluM|Ucstion, whetlier 
 it is not afairinferuiicc, from the solemn legislative 
 Act of this Parliament rejiealing a law, that this 
 Parliament conceived theie was a lnw to repeal. 
 
 Mr. BL.VKE. I am not iiwaic of the particular 
 case to wliicli the Ministei' of .histice lias alluded, 
 but I ])rcHuuie it was one which the Provincial 
 Legislature thought came within tiieir jurisdiction, 
 and that the repeal by this Parliaiiuul was ii//ra 
 rifis. I cannot see any otiier ground on wliicli the 
 Pi'ovincial Legislature could interfere at all in the 
 matter. We well know there was a certain class 
 of legislation before Confederiition — ])cihaps more 
 than one class — in respect of which there was a 
 somewhat divided authority after Confederation, 
 which rendered it necessary, in order to etl'ect a 
 complete re])eal, that there should be Icgislaticm 
 botli jirovincial ami federal. But no inference can 
 be drawn from such cases to apply to ca.ses which 
 arise after Confederation. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The action of Parliament with 
 reference to a pre-existing law may be said to 
 c(msist of two divisiims — amendment and declara- 
 tion. There may be cases in which Parliament 
 may think the courts have not fairly interpreted 
 the meaning which Parliament intended to give to 
 an Act, and Parliament may exercise the some- 
 what delicate power of declaring wiiat it meant by 
 its former Act, and may thus interpret its own 
 legislation. That woukt be an Act declaring, not 
 that the legislation in itself was ever different 
 from what Parliament declared it to be, but that 
 such was the meaning of the law al> initio. That is 
 declaration. The otlier form is that of amendment, 
 and it is with that this sub-section deals. If you 
 amend, you do change. You may change for the 
 better or worse, but an amendment is, or is in- 
 tended to be, a change, and when we proceed to 
 say, that in performing an act, the very essence 
 
of wliicli U I'lian^c, tlitt itt't'Hutiiptidii Ih not tcitiDOiiu 
 (if Mil iiitnit to I'liiiii^i', we lire |i<'i'fi>riniiig iigiiiii 
 w hut i« II M'ly fxtianrdiimry ii|M'iatiiiii, iiml oiu'c 
 agiiiii getting riil of what, u|ioii the ulioh', Iihh 
 Nct'iiii'il to inr t<i lie Hot an iiiionvcniciit view on 
 thi' part of thi; jucliciiuy. It in ijiiiti' tnic that tlii' 
 ('oiiMtriii'tion may lie Noiiii'tiiiirs, us to tliJM ami the 
 othiT inslanccN, a liclioii. Hut with reffit'iici' to 
 thi.s xuli-Nci'tioii, I think it iniiNt Im^ plain that 
 M hi'li 11 lioiiy of hgislulois fligiigc in tiii' piriccssof 
 aiii('ii(liiig a iiiw, thry imliiuti', liy t''ut Vfiy art, 
 their view that tlicy aii' changing the hiw, or, ut 
 any rate, it niiisl he picsiinieil that tli'ixe in til, it 
 Itoily who me niuinly rexpoiiKilih' for tlie h'gul unil 
 foiniul portions of the hgi.slution, iiK' engaged in 
 Nlieh a piooeNM. On tile wliole, it MeeiiiN to nil' that 
 the saine'ilijiction \\ hieh ajiplies to the lirst Meet ion 
 ajipiicM to tliis one. 
 
 CRIMINAL LAW AMKNDMKNT. 
 
 Mr. liLAKK. I would ask the MiiiiHter of 
 ■Iiistiee if tiieie is any sutlieieiit reason for tlie 
 liniitationoftlieageto twenty -one yeais, liecause, if I 
 Imve not lieeii inisinfornied, veiy painful easen have 
 oeeurred wliere liie age wa.s over twenty-one, and 
 wliere tlie inipoverislie<l eondition of the iinfoitu- 
 imtt! woman, am! her .state of .sulioicliiiulion, was 
 the cause of the seduetion ? 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. 1 <loulit very niiuli whether 
 there is any other elass of eases in which there is 
 more dunger of liiiitalising people than in the elass 
 of eases deult w ith ill this elunse 'A, and I Wdllld 
 suggest that tlie penalty of whipping he nddeil. 
 
 Mr. HLAKlv I regret to say that we sometinies 
 lead of eases of siirli assaults on daughters of \ery 
 tendei' yeais. What opportunity have we to 
 secure the eoiivietion of the guilty party, under 
 these eireuinstanees, and to )iroeure the ueoessury 
 evidelieeV The niaiii thing we lia\e to grajiple 
 with is the crime of greatest euoriiiitj' which can 
 he eomiiiitted : that of a father taking advantage of 
 his almost ahsolute jiower over his voiingchild, and 
 will not the lialiililv of the chilil to a long im- 
 ]irisoniiient lie an additional olistaclo to secur- 
 ing the necessary evidence "' 
 
 Mr. I'.L.VKK. 'I'lie rjuestioii with which we are 
 now dealing is one of t oiisideraliK' iniportaiice to- 
 day, uiid it muy lie of still more iiii|poiluiice in the 
 future. 1 think it is not unfit tliut we sliouhl 
 have wliut the attitude of the (ioverninent is, 
 with reference to the ]iersoiis whose existence in 
 our midst has gi\eii rise to this legislation. We 
 have noticed from time to time in tiie ])ulilic jii iiits, 
 reference, to visits of jier.sons of high I'onsideration 
 and authority in the Dominion, to the seltlemi'iit 
 of these ])er.soiis ciilled Monnons, or Lattel'-I)ay 
 Saints, in the Xortii-West, and occasionally 
 encouraging W(rrds have liecn used towards them 
 w'itli the suggestion, I lielieve, that they have got 
 to oliey our laws— hut still encouraging worcls 
 which it would seem to me were, perhaps, rather 
 out of place. There are in the Province of Ontario, 
 it! various sections, certain small scattered com- 
 niuuities of Mormons of the earlier jieriod under the 
 .Iose)ili .Smith di))en.satioii, who remain nionoga- 
 niists, who, I lielieve, separated from tlie Chuicli of 
 the Latter- Day Saints on the occasion of the change 
 
 wliieli was cfTectetl ut the time of Itrlgliiim Voiiiig, 
 
 and whicli chunge mainly consiste(l in the matter 
 wliich We rie now engaged in attempting to nii'et. 
 With refi cnee to such peisons, wc, of course, havt' 
 liothingti'~av, liiit it isriglit to oliser\'e that the dilli- 
 oulties wliieli the I'liited States has had to eonlenil 
 w ith inn --peet to the Moi-inonsof I'talisineethe I trig- 
 ham ^'oullg dispensation are seriiais and growing ; 
 ami that from time to time earnest ell'orts have 
 heeli made to overcome what seems to he an almost 
 iiisuiM lalile dilliciilty, owing to the extraordinary 
 solidarity of these people and their determination 
 to ]iersisl in and to conceal all legal evidence, at any 
 late, of their |iraetiees. As fur as one can judge, 
 there is now u disposition on the jiait of a coiisid- 
 erulilc niimlier of these people if not on the part 
 of their uiilhorities theinsidves to .seek some more 
 congenial place, wherein Ihey hope to he alile to 
 ouriy on tlii'se practices, for the sake of which tliey 
 are prepared to givi! iiji tiieir position in Utah. It 
 seems to ine, us fur as lean judge, that it is in the 
 course of an ell'oit to find a restingplace elsewhere 
 i than in I'tah that the settlement has lieen made in 
 the Noll h West Territories ; and licing made under 
 such circumstances, and as far as I lan see, with 
 such intention, 1 can only highly approve of the 
 , etl'ort which the lion. Minister of ilustice is making 
 ] to iiro\ iile stringent laws against the )iractices 
 j which are condemned liy these clauses of tlu! Hill. 
 Hut I think it w ell, also, to say tliat the ([Ucstion 
 is, in more respects than this, a serious one, and 
 that it calls upon us f<ir .some very strong expres- 
 1 sion of sentiment in discouragement of the settK^- 
 ment of .Monnons with these ['eciiliar views and 
 I notions in our midst. I happen to have hefore me 
 I a copy of the w ill of Hrigliani ^'ollng, in w liich lie 
 made careful provision I do not know how ample, 
 hecanse I do not k iw w hat his estate was for his 
 rather numerous family. They are <li\ided into some 
 twenty-thrct! or twenty-four classes, the earlier of 
 whiclii'onsistseach of a wife and the child or children 
 , hy that w ife, and tile latter of a hatch of wives 
 who seem to have lieell childless. In the cour.se of 
 this w ill he iisi's language w liich it may he useful 
 for the lion, gentleman to know. After having 
 ; made ]irovision for tlie.se numerous persons, he says 
 in the .'Utli clause : 
 
 "Til avoid iiiiv (|iiof^ti(in,''.,>) wnrd? married ormiirrinKo, 
 
 j ill this will. Jiliiil! lie (iikoii tn liiive lieodiiie edii.aiiiiiiiiiito 
 
 hi'tweeii iiiaii and wuiiian, eillier liy ('cri'iiKiiiv lu'loix' a 
 
 linvfiil iiiiii,'i.*tnito or acccinliiiB to the order iil' the t'liurcli 
 
 ' (itMesiis Cliri.-'l of Lntler-liiiy !!»aiiits, ur by their cfihahittt- 
 
 tioii ill c(iiil'i)riiiify te nur castdiii." 
 
 Simple coluiliitation, therefore, in conformity to 
 the Mormon custom is one of the rules liy w liich 
 
 1 Mormon marriage shall lie recogniseil. I find, in 
 the compilation which contains this will, this 
 
 i statement with reference to Morinoii marriages : 
 
 " Soiiii'tiiiies tliey have witnesses, .«oincliine? not; if 
 they tliiiik liny troulile may arise Irnui a iiiarriiigo, or 
 
 I tliiit 11 woiiuiii is iiu'liiieil to lie a little perver.'o, they 
 have no witnesses, neither do tlioy ttive iiiarriaKe certifi- 
 
 ! c.'iti'.<. ami it'oceasioii reciuire.s it. ami it is to shield any 
 
 ' of their iiolytTMiiioiis hrellireii Iroiii Ikmiik found out, they 
 will positively swear that fliey diil iio( perform any 
 
 , iiiarnaite at all, so that the woiiieii in this eluiicli have 
 
 j hut a very poor outlook for hoiiig considered honorable 
 
 I wives." 
 
 I The same ditHculties with reference to the regiila 
 tioii of the Utah MoriiKius, as distinguished from 
 those to whom I riferred, the old Mormons of the 
 fornier dispeiisalion, have crejit up in another 
 way. In 1S8!) a judgment of an associate ju.stice 
 
 if th 
 !|j deliv 
 'i these 
 '. Whic 
 1 pels 
 1 pies. 
 
 )orgai 
 J w hill 
 
 -! ' - 
 
 vjiidgi 
 ^ evidi 
 V| says 
 
 .1 "l>i 
 I word I 
 f any 
 . install 
 ] llii Itii 
 J lii.-tor; 
 
 iiiersist 
 laws 
 . .Slllte^ 
 
 liy 
 
 The 
 
 &;:Kisr"C" 
 
 
 t'lfj^i:^,';'' 
 
8 
 
 if ItriKliiiiii \'iiiiM){, 
 Ntcd ill (he iiiiittfi' 
 tti'iri|>tiii;{ til iii)'i-l. 
 
 W.i, (if llllMHC, lluVl' 
 
 Ht'i'M- tliiit tlu' ililli- 
 
 IlIlM hull to I'lllltl'IKl 
 
 I'tiiliMiiiictlic lliij;- 
 I'iiiiiH mill f,'ni\N iii^ ; 
 
 llilCHt I'iriiitH llllV»' 
 
 nils til lie Mil iiliiKiHt 
 liic (■xtiiiiiiilliiiiiy 
 lii'ir (U'lt'i'iMiiiatioii 
 ,'iil ('viilt'iict', lit any 
 UN (iiKi can jii(l>{t', 
 >■ pal t of a I'onsii 
 if nut on the )>ai't 
 
 to Nl'uk NOIIII' IIIOIC 
 
 lojic to III' alilit to 
 
 ' wake of \\ liii'li tlii^y 
 
 sition in I'tali. It 
 
 ;(', that it Ih in the 
 
 ii)i|)lafi' flm.'wht^rf 
 
 it liMs lii'cii iiiaili' in 
 
 il liciiitt niaik' iniilor 
 
 IS 1 can HUL', with 
 
 ily a))))l'ovt' of the 
 
 )f .liisticf is nmkinjK' 
 
 n«t the jiiiutiri's 
 
 jliiuses of the 15111. 
 
 that the (|iie.stion 
 
 a serioiiH one, ami 
 
 very .stioiij,' expres- 
 
 iient of tliu s('ttl(!- 
 
 I'eeiiliur views iinil 
 
 1 to ha\e liefore me 
 
 roilli),', in which lie 
 
 t know how iiiiiple, 
 
 estate was for his 
 
 e iliviileil into some 
 
 ssis, the earlier of 
 
 licehilil oii'liililieli 
 
 a liateh of wives 
 
 In the eoiiise of 
 
 it may he useful 
 
 w. After haviiij.' 
 
 us persons, he says 
 
 imirrioil (inniirriiiKe, 
 
 lll'lMllllC ('l>II.''lllllllllltL' 
 
 ccriMiuiiiv Ih'I'dvo a 
 
 irili'i'iil' till' Cliiircli 
 
 urby tlieir t'uliiihita- 
 
 III conformity to 
 
 ir rules liy wiiich 
 
 liseil. I tiiiil, in 
 
 s this will, this 
 
 moil niarriagcs : 
 
 siimoliiiU'.« iiiit; if 
 
 111 a iiiiirriiigc, or 
 
 iiiio iiorvorsi', tlioy 
 
 iiiiirringc pcrtiti- 
 
 I il i," til sliii'lJ any 
 
 in;: t'ciiiiiil oat, they 
 
 I ii'il piM'tniiii any 
 
 II tills clinroli liiivo 
 ^i'lerod huiKiiable 
 
 (■ to the rcgula 
 istiiigiiisheil from 
 1 Mormons of the 
 it up ill another 
 ssociiite justice 
 
 I- i 
 
 i 
 
 of the Supreme Coui'l, Mr. .luMtiie .'\nilei'Non, wiim 
 (Iclivei'eil, upon an iip))lieatioii niaile liy mime of 
 these Moniions to In ailmitteil us citi/.eiiM, upon 
 which application the eviileiice of a niiiiilier of 
 persons was taken us to their views anil priiici- 
 |>leM. Kviilenie was j^iveii liy no less tjian eleven 
 iiersoiis who hail liecn .Moiiiioiih. moiiic of whom 
 liail occupieil very lii;;li iiositimis in the church or 
 orpiiiisatioii, ami a mimlier of iletails wei'c niveii, 
 which I will not «eaiy the ( 'oiiiiiiitlce liy viiuliiiK' ; 
 I will ri^fer simply to the coiiclllHionsof the leaineil 
 juil^e, which are siistaineil hy extracts from the 
 eviileiice anil from writings of the people. He 
 says : 
 
 " DiirliiK tlic ten ila.vs IIiih invustiKiiliini IiimIi'iI nut a 
 wiiril iii'uvlih'iK'n was iiilriiiliii'cil nr iilfiTi'il Mlinwliiit lliiil 
 liny iirciirliiT or tcinln'r nf tlin I'liiii'cli I'vcr. in n slimle 
 iiiHtiiiii')', ailviiicildlii'illi'iii'i' til till' liiwsiiKiiinst pnlyKuniy. 
 On the I'oiiliiiry. llic I'viili'iirc in tin." i'iimc, ami llic wlnm' 
 liii'lory III' till' .Slurniiiii clian'li In I'lali, (ilinw.'' Iliiil il iiai 
 iiiTsisicnlly ri'liiin'il iilicillriice ti> at leant ii |Mii(iiiii nt the 
 laws iiUllie (idvernnient, lias iintalteil ami driven Uiiiteil 
 Slates iiflieeri f'rinii Hie terrilnry, Iihb ilenieil tliu anlliiir- 
 ily iil'llie Uiiiteil ■'^lali'S tii|ia.sslaws iiinlilliitiiiK iiolyifiiniy, 
 as an niiwarranteil inti'rt'ereiice wiili their lellKliHi. ami, 
 KiMierally, liiis anta|{i>nise(| ami ilemiiiiieeil tliu (iiiverii- 
 lueiit in alimist every piissilile way." 
 
 Then the leanieil juilj^e sums up the evideiieo 
 liroii^ht liefore him us to the teauhingx of the 
 ciiiiich : 
 
 " First : That it is the aetiial anil vorilalile KiiiKilniii 
 of (Idil on eurlli, not in its lulliiess.liecaiise Christ lias not 
 yet eoiiio III rule in ihtsoii, lint lor lliu iiresent lie rale.s 
 tliroiiiili the iiriestliooil of till,' eliarcli, who are His viee- 
 gerenls on earlli. 
 
 " .'^leonil : 'I'liiil this kiiiKiloin is liolli a teinimnil ami 
 ppiriliial kiiiKilmn. unit siioiilil rii;litt'iilly eonirol ami is 
 enlilleil lu tlio highest allegiance of men ill all llieir 
 aifiiirs, 
 
 "TliinI : Tliiil this kiintdoin will overthrow the Uiiitod 
 iStales and all other (jioverimionts, al'terwliich Clirisl will 
 reiiiii in person. 
 
 "l''oiirlli; That the doelrini' of ' lilnod aloneinent ' is 
 of (iiid, and llial under il eerlaiii sins wlijeli llie lilooil of 
 (Jluist eaiinot alone for may he leniilled hy .sliedJiiiB the 
 blood 111 tlic Iraiisirressor. 
 
 " Kiflli : Tlial polygamy is a eommand of Ooil, which if 
 a memlier obeys he will bo cxalled in the future life 
 above those who do iiol. 
 
 " Sixth ; That llie CoiiKress of the I'liiled .'^lilies has no 
 riKliI under the eonstiliilion to puss any law in any 
 niiilter iiitei ferine with the pnieliees of llie .Moriiiiii reli- 
 Kion. and llial llie Ai'ls of Congress a(faiiisl liolynmny, 
 and disfraneliisiiit; I hose who pnietiee it, are unwanaiita- 
 ble interferi'iiees with llieir relittion. 
 
 " fan men be iniide Iriie and loyal eili'/.ens by such 
 teacliiinrs. or are lliev likely lo remain so surrounded by 
 smell intliieiu'es? Will iiien becomi' allai'lied lo Ihepriii- 
 eiples of the eoiisliliilion of the I'liiled Slates when lliey 
 hear the (inyerniiient eonstaiilly doniiiiiu'ed as lyraiinieal 
 and oppressive'.' Il would be as iinreasoiialile lo expect 
 piu'li a resiill as it woiiM be to expect to gather grapes 
 from thonisor tlus liom thistles. 
 
 "It has always been and still is the poliey of this (iov- 
 ernnient to eiicoiiiaife aliens, who in (?nod faith einiie lo 
 reside ill this eountry, to beeoine citizens; but when a 
 iiiiin ol foreijin birth eoiiies here and joins an onranisa- 
 tion, altlioiiiih professedly religions, wliieli rei|iiires of 
 liim an allegiance paninioaiii io his allegiame lo the 
 (tovernineiit, an orgiinisalion that impiously and blasphe- 
 inoiisly claims to be the kingdoii of (iod, lo control its 
 nieiiibcrs iimler llisiiumedialedireelion.ainl yet teaches 
 and iiraetices a system of morals shocking to christian 
 
 ilie evidence in this ca?e establishes umiiiestiomibly 
 j that the leachings, practices and aims of tlic Mormon 
 j church are antagonistic to the Government ot the United 
 
 I Stales, utierly siibver-ui' In good morals and ihewell- 
 ' lieiiig of Hociety, and tl at Its iiii'inbers are aiiiinali'il liy a 
 feeling of liosiility tow irds the lloverniiient and its laws, 
 and, therefoii', an alien who i- a iiieiiiber of "aid eliiireh 
 is not a 111 person lu be made a i'ili/.uii of llio t'liitvj 
 SlaleH." 
 
 i .'\iiil the appliciitioiiM were refuseil. I olwervti tliut 
 I it is stateil that the .Mornioiis « ho have seftleil in 
 ( aiiailu ai c not now pract isiii;.' polygamy, llioiigli 
 I some aiithoritii'K, \i ho appear to have invcstigiiteil 
 the niattcr, say then' is a siispicioiiN ilisproportioii 
 of the sexes aiiioii); them. I liiiM' a letter from a 
 frieiiil M ho happens to he temjiorarily a resilient of 
 l-'tiili, iiiiil who is co;;iiisant of the course of events 
 I there traiispirin^, with rc^ianl to some of those who 
 ' have collie to (aiiaila, anil he tells me that in some 
 instances the .Mormons who have j^mie into the 
 .Vorlli West 'rciritories liaMfma time left their 
 ohl w i\cs licliiiiil them, liiit he leaiiis that they have 
 each taken a fresh youii^; one. Ilow lonuthat will 
 last I ilo not know, liiit that is their solace at 
 present for their resilience in Caliaila. \otwith- 
 staiiiliii^' the anxiety the lion, meiiiliers from the 
 Nortli-W'cst have siiow II iliirinj{ the last few iliivs 
 to promote iiiiiiiij;ratioii, I famv they will not lie 
 very anxious to promote imini^'ratinn of this char- 
 acter, ami I ilo not suppose that any of us fuel, 
 uiiilei' the eirciimstances, that siicii iiiiiiii>^'ratioii in 
 of a useful or w liolesome or prolitalilc character. 
 I am not sii^'j;estiii<i at this momciit that we cannot 
 1 ilo more than, liy the most careful ami comprelieii- 
 ] sivc le>,'islatioii, proviile muchiiiery for the ilis- 
 I coiitimiance or the prevention of theso 
 aliomiiialile practices which we know theso 
 people en>;a;;e ill iiniler pretence of reli;„'ion 
 No one who peruses the e\ iileiicc taken in recent 
 years in the elloit to estahlish the f.ict of that 
 cohaliitatioii which the lion. L'tiitleman is emleu- 
 voriiig to reiiiler erimiiial here can iloiilit that this 
 is a matter of extreme ililliciilty. ami that longer 
 experience on the part of tho.se who commit these 
 practices, ami the jiicater precautions they will 
 take to escape iletcctioii w ill icinler it ii matter of 
 still ;,'rcatcr ilillinilty to prevent tint eontinuanec 
 of those practices, 'i'heieforc it seems to me that 
 we all' lioiind, not merely to support the lion, gen- 
 tleman in any leasonalile ct!'ort to stamp as a criiiie 
 anil to leliiler as ell'ective as the circiiiiistaiici^s of 
 the ease will allow the jirovisioiis of any law 
 a^raiiist the crime, Init tliiit also it shoiihl lie iiiili- 
 catcil at the earliest hour that it is not words of 
 eiiciiiira<,'emciit liut words of discouraLjenient which 
 this I'ai liaiiicnt, as the representatives of the 
 Iii'iiple, have for the .Mormons and their almscs, iiiid 
 Iiraetices, tiud t!ic views they entertain of civil 
 ^'overiimi lit and allcj;iaiice and on this marriage 
 i|uestioii. with the iiitcntion of carrying out which, 
 I fear, they arc coming amongst us, 
 
 Mr. UL.Mxl';. It is very well iiinleistood that 
 the reason the .Moiiiions left the L'liited States is 
 the ililliciilty they have with the .American (iov- 
 eliiiiient arising out of this i|iiestioii of polygamy. 
 
 Mr. HL.VKK. That is a most serious (|ucstion ; 
 and when they oliject to remaining in another 
 country where the laws are )iracticaHy the same 
 as here, only, |)erlia))s, less strict, it is ditlicult to 
 understand wliy they should come here to obey 
 our laws. 
 
 Mr. HL.AKlv I desire to tisk the Minister 
 of Interior whether he lias received any report 
 
frmii till' Liciili'iiMiit (idvciniir nf tin- N'oitliWuMt 
 Ti'iritiirii'M, wlm, I iiiulciNtaiiil, paiil <i vixit, tint 
 vi'i'y loiiK »K"< "f '^^" ili'y* oo'l t^vi) iii^htH tn tin- 
 liiniilc't ill wliicli ill) 'su |i<'ii|iIl' livi', ami wlm, I iiin 
 told, ux|iri'm«iM tlio •i|iiiiiiiii tliut tliuy uru noti|uite 
 ■(>inoli(i({iiinimN imu a^ \n icprcm'iitt'il 1 
 
 Mr, in^AKK. I IwiMi iiiiil<'i'i<tiiiii| iliut tlif 
 I>ii!iiti'iiaiit (iiivfi'iiiir of tiiu NortliWcst 'IViri 
 toiit'H n'ftuvcil Mil aililicHH fiiiiii tlicMt! |i<Mi|il(', anil, 
 I tliiiik, specially' from Mr. Canl, wIiumc wife, I 
 iiiKlfrMtaiiil, JM line of tlic iiuiiktiium liaiigiitiTB of 
 Hrigliitiii Voiiiig. 
 
 Mr. DKWDNKV. Tliut Im not ofTciing iiulueu- 
 
 nU'lltM to coiiir ill tllUI'i'. 
 
 Mr. IlLAKK. 
 •tny tlifft!. 
 
 No; liiit if it) iiiiliu'ing tliuiii to 
 
 Mr. HI.,.VKK Tilt' lioii. nioinlicr lia.s iiiisuiuli'r- 
 Htcioil iiic a iittk'. My jiosition \\i\s not tliat wo 
 mIioiiIiI paHH a law to |iri,'\'t'iit tliuiii from coiiiiiig in, 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I wish, at any rate, to liavu it 
 iinilcrHtooil tliat what I saiil \v'as, tliat, looking at 
 till' whole cii'ciinistani'cs, I coiilil not ri'lit'vi,' my 
 niinil from lliti iiiiprcHsion that thr.'<«' |K'o|)Iu were 
 coining hcri" in the liojie that they woiilil lie ahle 
 to rei'stalilish in our I'oiintiy a foiKJition of things 
 which they hail foiiiul it ililhi'iilt to continiiu in 
 tho United States, and that I thought it was im- 
 portant that words of discoura;^eiiient should fall 
 iroiii the rppiesentatives of the people in this 
 country against their eoiiiin/ here with any such 
 notion or idea as that, and that they should learn 
 in a very marked manner that we woiihl not perniit 
 the scheme to grow and assume ]iroportioiis more 
 ditHciilt and more claiigerous to grapple with than 
 it is now ; and that if they do come here they 
 nnist come here not merely under a pretence of 
 oheying the law, but that they must do so in 
 reality. 
 
 Mr. n(...\KK. I clo not ne<! why there nIioiiIiI 
 not lie in this case discretion given to the judge of 
 piiniHhing either liy line or liy iniprisonineiit, for, if 
 the oU'ence may liu inimt luriuuH, it iiiiiy nlwi bo 
 inoHt trilling. 
 
 Mr. JtL.XKH. With reference to this, I am not 
 
 familar witii the piactical operation of the law ; 
 
 liiit a representation has iH'eti niaile to me li)- ii 
 
 gentleman of very I'onsidcralile I'Xpciieiice in one 
 
 of tlii^ largest ceiitrcH of population in the I'roviiicc 
 
 of Ontario, that the operation of the process uf 
 
 election, when it takes placid liefore a magistrate, 
 
 without the presence of some responsililc fiiiu'tion- 
 
 ary representing piililic iiistice, is HonietimeK 
 
 very unsatisfactory, and tliat the prisoner does 
 
 not olitain that information and opportunity for 
 
 , eonsiileriition which he ought to liave, licfore 
 
 ' peciding on the course he shall take, the result of 
 
 which is not infrei|Uently, a.'i stated to ni(4^ that 
 
 j election takes place, ami a hurried trial proceedsand 
 
 (ionvictionisolitaiiicd uiulcr ciicumstaiiceson which 
 
 { conviction should not take pliuu'. The suggestion 
 
 I made to nie was that there siiould lie fewer lacilitiefi 
 
 for piociiring the election, unless in cases where 
 
 I the ('rown was representi'd Ky some fiini'tionary 
 
 \ who should see that justice is clone towards the 
 
 prisoner. I am not myself practically ac<|uainted 
 
 with this matter, lint the geiitlenian who made the 
 
 suggestion has a great amount of experience ; and I 
 
 would ask the lion. Minister of .Iiistii'c whether 
 
 any suggestions have lieen made to him in that 
 
 I'espect ? 
 
 Mr. I5LAKK. Jias any jjrovision been made W 
 regulating tlie method by which intci-inediato 
 sentences shall be terminated, or by what author- 
 ity they shall end ? 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Would it not lie more c<mvenient 
 if the lion, gentleman would jiiit tliesi! additional 
 clauses on tiie jiaper, with the notice that he 
 would ask our assent to them at the ne.xt sitting 
 of the Conimittee ? 
 
 
 OTTAWA ; Printed by Hkown Chamhkrlin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
why there ■hniihl 
 
 veil to tlm JUiIki- of 
 
 ii|triM<iiiiiit'nt, for, if 
 M, it iniiy nliMi Imj 
 
 !e to thia, I iitn not 
 
 'latlnii of tilt! liiw ; 
 
 iiiiLilo (o \uv liy a 
 
 i'X|>ciifiii'i' in mil' 
 
 ion in tlif I'rovinri' 
 
 of tin' piOl'CKM of 
 
 foru II niiij^iNtiiili', 
 Nponxililc function 
 ii'c, {m HoniftinicM 
 tlio |ii'iHon<;i' iloc'H 
 III o|ii)oi'tunity for 
 to liiivc, ln'for<! 
 t^ikc, tilt- ivhmU of 
 tattMl to ni)4| timt 
 il trial procceilHuiKl 
 niiHtauL'(!siin uliii'h 
 '. 'I'lui MUKgtiHtion 
 I \>v fewer lacilitiuH 
 I'HM in cases wliero 
 Moniu functionary 
 ilont^ towards tiiu 
 tically ac(|Uaintoil 
 nuin wild n\aile tiiu 
 f exj)erienci! ; unci I 
 if .histice wliftlier 
 l(! to him in that 
 
 Hion Ix'en made 'or 
 hid) intt^rnieiliatu 
 I- l)y what nuthor- 
 
 p(.' more convenient 
 t thc.s(' aililitional 
 notice that he 
 it the next sitting 
 
 otise of Commons jQebntes 
 
 FOURTH SESSION -SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 ^PEECH OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 THE MEMIiER FOIl LINCOLN. 
 
 ;len+' Majesty. 
 
 MONDAY. ITtii MARCMI, 1S!)0. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. With much that the hon. I'rcsi.lent 
 
 f the Collin il has naiil. I i(uitea^'iee. I u^iec! with 
 
 liiii as to the spirit in which tliis Mouse shoilhl 
 
 tipproach tlie ciiiisiileration of tliisijuestion. I agree 
 
 V itii him that least of all (piestioiis which can lie 
 
 Vrought liefore this ll<iu.He, ought this one to 
 
 lissuuKr in any sen.se a pai'ty complexion. I sup- 
 
 ose all must have laeii struck liy the oliservation 
 
 lailc liy till' lioii. uicmlier fur Lincoln, when he 
 
 ave his explanation at the opening of this ileliate, 
 
 hat I'xpressioii of regret wiiicli, lie said, he ciilci 
 
 aiiieil at his unfortunate piisitiiiii, in that after hav- 
 
 ng niaile his speech he was to leave the House anil 
 
 Jhas ilisaliled from participating in the delmte which 
 
 |hould follow. If that deliate «ere to take the tone 
 
 :^'hicli the lion, niemlier for Lincoln iili\ iously con- 
 
 fceived, if it wcii'lo pidcecd on the lines he ohviously 
 
 liilicatiMl, tlu^ regret of the hon. gentleman would 
 
 lave heeii justitied, and the rule to which ht^ gave 
 
 lefi'rence by his retirement would have lieen proved 
 
 o he an uureasonalilc rule. Iiut, Sir. the regiet 
 
 as unfounded and the rule isaueutircly reasonalile 
 
 jfi'.lle; I lecausc that vacant chair speaks 11 lore strongly 
 
 *;lian the most eloi|Uent language we could hear 
 
 |an favor of the uiemlier who is ali.scnl from it. 
 
 ^t speaks in solciiin tones, and al)]ieals to us in terms 
 
 ^iioic forcilile than any toiijiue could use as to the 
 
 iline which we should take, the tone « i' shouhl 
 
 aiilopt, the spirit which should aiiiiiiato us in 
 
 Jilisposing of this case. Why is that chair vacant '! 
 
 It is vacant because our colleague is, according to 
 
 the piinci|>Ics of reason, disabled and disipialitieil 
 
 ^roui being the jiid, M liis own caii.se. I!ut, then, 
 
 $t is a cause in whii'ii ..e are his judges ; anil it is, 
 herefore, in a judicial ca]»acity, strictly in a judi- 
 cial capacity, that we have to deal with the 
 natter, thus I agree wholly with the observations 
 ' of the lion, the I'reside^it of the (^luncil, and 
 Iso in the phrase dlopjied by the Minister of 
 Justice at an earlier stage of the debate, that we 
 re acting here as judges of the oause. Sir, under 
 he.se circumstances we have no warrant, whatever 
 may be the latitude, the regrettable latitude, which 
 e permit to ourselves under other circumstances, 
 
 when wo arc present face t;: face ninl nre able, if 
 attacked, to reply to the attack we have no war- 
 rant lieri^ anil now, to mingle invective with 
 reason, to heighten the complexion of the trans- 
 action by any rhetorical devices, to blink the factu, 
 to take any other course than, inaspii'it of <'andor, 
 fair play and impartiality, to endeavor to ascertain 
 the light and the truth. I agree with the observa- 
 tion of the hon. the i'resideiit of the Council that 
 the honor of the whole House is concerned in tho 
 matter. It is concerned in all such mattt-rs. Tho 
 honor of the House is in a sense in the iiandsof 
 every niemberof the House. No course of eoiiduet 
 discreditable ill the general sense of the eoniinunity 
 can be pursiuMl by any single member without, to 
 some extent, at all events, lowering the character of 
 the assembly of u liich he forms a jiart, and in this 
 view it is our comnion interest, lis memliers of 
 I'arlianieiit, that the transaction, whatevei' it may 
 lie, should not b(! depicted darker than its true 
 color, and that every reasonable protection should 
 lie accorded to the man who is accused. On tho 
 otlu'i' hand. Sir, it is even more clearly the duty 
 of the House to watch jealously that honor of 
 which it is the guaidian, and to take care that 
 it does not become, by any unworthy coiinivanee 
 in a discreditable transaction, an accomplice after 
 the fact, mid so degradi' itself to some extent to the 
 level of those who may be conceriied in such 
 tran.siictioiis. The situation is, undei these circum- 
 stances, painful. I agree with the lion, geiitleiuiin 
 in the view that it 'Uiglit not to be made in any 
 sense a party (luestion for tho.se reasons which I 
 have given, and for other rei..'ioiis too ; for reasons 
 which, taking a .somewhat lower ground, are 
 particularly applicable to those w ho may happen 
 tortile time tolic on theside of the minority, because 
 if there be any section of the House that has a deeper 
 interest than another in the ob.servance of these 
 principles, it is those who liap)>en to be in the 
 minority. Their only chance for the athriiiiition 
 of charges justly made against a member of the 
 majority, consists in the ob.servaiice of the principle 
 of justice. Their only chance for the avoidance of 
 a condemnation of a charge unjustly made against 
 
a member of the minority, consists in the adlierence ' 
 to tliiH ])iiiici])le of justice ; iiiul to iiilrocluce a 
 jiolitical coiii|)lcxion into niattcis of this iiiiiil, 
 would at one l)l(>w render it iin])ossi))le for a min- 
 ority to ol)tain justice against an adversai'y, and 
 render it iin))ossil)le for a minority to olitain jus- 
 tice for themselves. Tlierefore, those wlio ha])pen 
 to sit on the side of the House on which I sit are 
 especially charged with the duty of Imliling up 
 that standard of justice to which the lion, gen- 
 tleman has app(!aled. Then, Sir, it is on those 
 principles of justice that we ought to act, and 1 ask ■ 
 n'.yself, applying myself to tliis case as it is now | 
 presented, wiietlier the application of the [ iciple 
 of j\istice rend'.'is premature, at tins moment, aj 
 final judgment on the main motion. The memliei- ; 
 for Lincoln, as the hon. President of the Council [ 
 has said, has asked for a connnittee. I cannot say 
 that in my judgment theliest, tlie convenient, the 
 fittest cour.se to deal with tliisease, is to refer it to a 
 connnittee. My own opinion is that the best, the 
 proper and the convenient course is that it should 
 be dis])osed of here, for rea.sons that I will state to ' 
 you in a moment. Wlien we shall come to (lis})ose j 
 of it, eitlier liere or elsewhere, 1 hold myself free, I 
 nay, I hold myself bound-as I snjipose every hon. 
 membei' will — upon such evidence and arguments j 
 as shall at that time be before us to examine ■ 
 carefully into every recital of the motion that is I 
 presented to us, and to ascertain whether tlio.se 
 recitals are fail' and full ; to examine whcthei' the 
 rei\nn(' is accuiate and true ; and to examine ' 
 whether the conclusion which is drawn from those ' 
 recitals and from that n'siniii' is just and titting ; 
 and either to negatixe, or to amend, or to alKiiu, ! 
 as the result of that (examination indicates is right, j 
 Hut that. Sir, is not the immediate iiuestioii. '!"!ie I 
 immediate (juestion is, not what juilginent should 
 be pronounced upon the main motion, liiit w hetlier i 
 we should refer the case to a committee, and I i 
 ask myself : why we should refer, and what we 
 should refer ': 1 believe that each case of this 
 description should be de ilt with according to its 
 circumstances, and that if there be a (piestion com- 
 plicated and ditlicult, involving the examination I 
 of witnesses, or a subject complicated and ditlicult, j 
 involving a long search into precedents, it is Httlug ' 
 and convenient that the sifting of evidence by the , 
 examination of witnesses, or the long search into a 
 series of ])rece(lciits, not heretofore collected, should 
 be accomplished by the Select Standing Coinmittee j 
 that we erect for such jmrposes. Hut, I believe that 
 in every case weaie called on to consider, wliether 
 the case in hand is one that calls for tlie inter- 
 positicm of that machinery, and the intervention of 
 that connnittee. Cases have been referred to in 
 the pjist. It iias been said liy the hon. member for 
 Jac(|ues Cartier (Mr. (iirouard) that there was a 
 rule for and a right to a reference to a coinmittee. 1 
 do not know where the hon. gentleman found the 
 statement that ther(! is such a rule, or that then? 
 is such a right. I dis]nite the existence of the rule | 
 and of the right. I know that leading gentlemen ' 
 on his side of the House, have from time io time, 
 in days that are past, proposed a much more' , 
 summary disjiosition -the most summary ilisposi- | 
 tion possible — of matters lirought before the lb)use, j 
 and, according to my recollection of the objections 1 
 taken to that summary disposition when proposed, 
 they were liased ujioii the special considerations j 
 to which I have referred. Particular reference has 
 
 been made to the motion with regard to one of yonr 
 predecessors, Mr. Speaker, in the chair. In what 
 form was tliat motion made, and supported by the 
 wliole body of the Conservative j)arty in Parlia- 
 ment '! It was made, Sir, directly against the 
 Speaker of this House, with that S|)eaker in tlu' 
 chair, upon a motion to go into ('ommittee of 
 .Sujiply, as an amindment, in which form it was not 
 amendalde, in which an instant decision was instant- 
 ly sought, and when the ]>arty wiiose conduct was 
 impugned, and wliose seat — if not in absolute 
 terms, yet by a necessary ini])lication was fatally 
 assaileil — was prevented from saying one word in 
 liis own defence. The hon. meniber for tJaciines 
 Cartier (Mr. (Iirouard) indicated that there was 
 soim? right on the ])art of the Speaker of the House 
 to ask the indulgence of the House to leave tlie 
 chair, in order that he might make a statement on 
 the Hoor. I am not familiar with the jirecdents 
 u])on which the hon. gentleman justified that 
 statement, but I say that if there be such, 
 and I am (juite ignorant of tlieni, they are 
 precedents which ought not to have been invoked. 
 .\ly own opinion of the conduct of tliose members 
 of the Hfuise wlio in that case made that jiroposal 
 was that, altogether regardless of another c<m- 
 sideration to which I shall brietiy refer, they took, 
 not merely an nnreascniable, but I will say a hard, 
 a rigorous, and an otl'ensive course, in making tlie 
 motion in the form in which it was made. My 
 o])inion was, that a due regard for the luinciple of 
 justict! would have caused the motion to be made 
 in sut'h a form as that those who moved it would 
 have .secured to tlie man whose character and wlio.se 
 seat was assailed, an o])|)ortuiiity of defending 
 himself. Sitting as he di<l in the Speakei's chair, 
 thej' ought to have know n that the only mode by 
 which that result could be obtained, would be by a 
 motion to refer the matter to a committee, before 
 which he cmild ajijiear. Heyoiid all that, there 
 were important ipiestions to be disposed of. There 
 were ijuestions to be dis])osed of, (piestious of fact, 
 and also (juesti(<iis of law. based on formei- ])rfe- 
 cedents, which ap|)eared to justify the view 
 that the seat was not vacated, and, therefore, there 
 was a rea.son in tlie search for ]irececleiits and in 
 tiie taking of evidence for a reference of that case. 
 There were many meetings of the Committee tm 
 Privileges and Klections. As liajipened in otlier 
 controversies which o(!currcd when the Liberals 
 were in a majority in this House, the eli'ort was t" 
 do that justice wiiich the lion, the President of the 
 Council ap])ealed to ns to-night to endeavor to 
 attain. The case of the .Speaker was a case in 
 which a prominent meniber of the majority was 
 attacked. There was alsr) a case in which a mem- 
 ber of the minority was attacked. And in each of 
 these eases I rejoice to think, that the majority 
 entered into the investigation, sought foi' the truth, 
 ascertainiMl the truth, ;ind framed a unanimous 
 report, upon which the House afterwai'ils acted. 
 Hut some hon. gentlemen have said that there 
 was a trick played in connection with the jire- 
 sentation of tlie report. Sir, no trick was played. 
 The Committee on Privileges and Klections met, 
 they agreed upon the report, and it was unani- 
 mously agreed by that committee, in the ])re.sence 
 ami with the assent of the hon. First Minister, who 
 was a member of the committee and the leader of 
 the ()p))osition, that the Chairman should be 
 reijnested to defer the presentation of the report 
 
jiii'd to one of youi' 
 
 10 cliair. In what 
 
 1 supported by tlu' 
 
 u party in Parlia- 
 
 ectly awiiiist the 
 
 lat Speaker in the 
 
 into i'onnnittee of 
 
 iuli form it was not 
 
 L'oision was instant- 
 
 rthosc conduct was 
 
 f not in absolute 
 
 ication was fatally 
 
 ayiug one word in 
 
 innlicr for Jaciiucs 
 
 L'd that tlicrc was 
 
 caker of the House 
 
 louse to leave tlie 
 
 die a statement on 
 
 itli the ]irecc.dents 
 
 lan justified that 
 
 f there be such, 
 
 tlieni, they are 
 
 lave iieen invoke<l. 
 
 b of those members 
 
 nade that proposal 
 
 is of another con- 
 
 y refer, tiiey took, 
 
 ; I will say a hard, 
 
 rsc, in making the 
 
 t was made. My 
 
 or the ]iriiici|)le of 
 
 lotion to be made 
 
 ;io moved it would 
 
 laracter and whose 
 
 liity of defending 
 
 le S])eaker'H ciiair, 
 
 tiie only mode by 
 
 led, would be by a 
 
 committee, before 
 
 1 all that, there 
 
 isposed of. 'riieri' 
 
 (piestions of fact, 
 
 d on forniei' prfe- 
 
 ustify the view 
 
 1, tliei'efore, there 
 
 irecedcnts and in 
 
 eiice of that ease. 
 
 le Committee on 
 
 ippclied ill other 
 
 iieii the Lilicrals 
 
 the ell'oi't was t" 
 
 • I'lesiiU'iit of the 
 
 t to endeavor to 
 
 I'r was a case in 
 
 till' iimjority was 
 
 in wliich a mein- 
 
 And ill each of 
 
 that the majority 
 
 iglit for tile truth, 
 
 led a unanimous 
 
 fterwards acted. 
 
 said that there 
 
 in with the jire- 
 
 rick was played. 
 
 1 Klcctioiis met, 
 
 id it was unani- 
 
 . ill the presence 
 
 I'st Minister, wlio 
 
 anil the leader of 
 
 ■man should be 
 
 ion of the report 
 
 to the latest hour compatible with its jiresentation 
 during tlie Session. It was thought to lie a conve- 
 nient eour.se, a projier and manly course, not to 
 create tlie disturbance aiidditliculty that would re- 
 sult from the vacation of the Speaker's seat a few 
 (laysliefore the clo.se of the Session. The suggestion 
 was made on these grounds, I believe by myself, it 
 was unanimously agreed to, and it was so done. 
 The result was that the rejiort was not iiresented 
 until the last clay of the Session, it being understood 
 that It would be, as it was, acted upon immediately 
 after the close of the Session : anil I think it -vasa 
 course Wiirthy of the lion. Fir.st Minister in his 
 position, worthy of the inenibers of the Ojiiiosition 
 and conformable to the dignity and the amenities 
 of tin; House ; and a course which a faithful though 
 sometimes recalcitrant follower of the lion. First 
 Minister ought not now to condemn him for having 
 nssentedto. Xow, I wish to know what we shoulil 
 refer, and why we should refer, and in older to 
 decide this, we must brush aside some questions 
 which in the course of this debate have been rai.sed 
 as being more or less in issue. I say that no ca.se 
 is made or ])reteiide 1 of breach of the In(le])endence 
 of Parliament Act ; and that if there were, tile 
 penalties which are provided by that Act liave 
 been exhausted and a])ply i:o hmger. Xow, 1 do 
 not state tliis bccaii.se I conceive there is the slightest 
 ditt'ereiice in iirincijile, u])on tl'c (juestion of a refer- 
 ence to the committee, whether the jioiiit ari.ses 
 iijion the statute or w'lietiier it arises upon the 
 unwritten law, any more than my lion, friend 
 liesideme (.Mr. Laurier) did or couhl have supjiosed 
 such a possibility. My hon. friend only pointed out 
 that there might be a ((nestion as to what the 
 etl'ect of a statute was. The ((Uestion is whether 
 there is tit matter to be referred to a eonimittec : 
 and, whether that matter ari.ses by virtue of 
 alleged breach of a statute, or by virUie of an alleged 
 breach of a ruh;, or by virtue of an alleged violation 
 of those obligations, or those unwritten laws which 
 guard the honor of parliament, the same jirinciple 
 a|)plies to all. Ihit I say there is here no charge that 
 the Indepcndeiii'e of Parliament Act has been 
 broken. Again, then; is no case here made of a 
 breach of any laws regulating the disposition of tim- 
 ber limits. Again, and this is not an unimportant 
 |)oint, in regard to some of tlie observations made 
 by the lion, member for Lincoln, there i.s no 
 ease made here, and no charge fif any fraud having 
 iieeii eomiiiitted u|ion Mr. Sands, the purchaser of 
 these limits, and, therefore, that is not a matter 
 suggested as eii(|uirable into here. Sands may 
 have lieen defraiuled, ami he may not ; he may have 
 been defrauded by the hon. menilnr for Lincoln, 
 or by Mr. Adams, or liy both, or by neither of 
 them : it is a matter with which we have nothing 
 to do on the issues before us. And, lastly, and 
 most ini]iortaiit for our consideration, there is no 
 case whatever made of wrong of any kind, save 
 whatever wrong is alleged to be apjiarent in the 
 hon. member's own letters printed in theN'otes, and 
 in his own statements made in this House. Wiiat- 
 evi'r is alleged against him, and whatever jiroof is 
 suggcsteil as sustaining the allegations, are based 
 upon his own written and oral statements Itotli 
 Ijefore us. There is the wlioleof it. Xow, to the bene- 
 fit of these limitations the lion, member for Lincoln 
 is fully entitled ; but by these limitiitions and their 
 conseoueiices the hon. inember is also bound. Xow, 
 aswellaslcangatlier, tlie hon. member in his expla- 
 
 nation has alleged that the recitals of the extracts 
 from these letters in the motion of tiie hon. 
 meinber for South Oxford are unfair and 
 misleading, ''"hough lie did not i)oint out the 
 details in respect of whii.h he made that allegation, 
 still he made it in the general. He has also alleged 
 that there are other papers which he can produce ; 
 though so far as I am able to judge, these relate 
 wholly or mostly to the irrelevant cjuestionof Sands. 
 [Jut these other jiapers, whatever their nature or 
 ert'ect, he has not further iiarticularised, nor has he 
 jiroduced them. Xow, no man can deny that the 
 hon. member for F>ineoln has had the amplest op- 
 ))ortunity of present ing his defence, both in proof and 
 ill argument. He has on two occasions at least 
 Jiroduced such materials as he thought proper ; he 
 lias on two or three occasions made statements 
 here ; and I am not saying that it might lie held 
 to be unjiKst to assume that no further vali<l evi- 
 dence or defence was available, or even to decide 
 that no further opportunity should be given. Hut 
 though I contest the strict justice of that view, for 
 my own |iait I do not choose to act on it. 1 agree, 
 once again, in much that the lion. President of the 
 Council has said in that regard. I think it ex- 
 tremely imjiortaiit, in the interest of justice and 
 fair l)lay, in the interest of this House at large, 
 that the judgment which is linally to be awardeit 
 in this matter, whatever it may be. should be a 
 judgment which cannot be impugned ujion any 
 pretence or suggestion that there was any fair op- 
 portunity refused to the hon. inember to make a 
 complete defence, or even to offer such mitigating 
 and excuiliatory evi<lence as the hon. i'resiileiit of 
 the Council referred to. The ground which I take is 
 this: I think that the hon. member having, though 
 (piite mistakenly in my view, regretfully in my 
 view, when he iiiaile his statement in this House, 
 reserved in part his defence, ought to have even 
 now the ojiportunity of conqiletiiig that statement 
 and defence. I think tlu; House is entitled and 
 ought to .say to him this: " While wedo not see, U])on 
 the material now before us, including your own 
 statements, any ground for referring the case to a 
 I'oinmittee, we are )ire])ared to receive youi' further 
 statement, your further argument, your further 
 liapers, if any you have, and to deal with this case 
 as may then seem just.'' I think, then, that the 
 hon. member ought to have the oiiportunity of say- 
 ing, in his place here, what more he chooses, and 
 of laying on the Table iiere what further pa)iers 
 he <le(;nis projier. And, I think that the adoji- 
 tion of this course would enable us to dispo.se 
 in a proper way of the ameinlmeiit now in your 
 hands, and at the same time to do the fullest 
 justice to the lion, meinber for Lincoln. It is the 
 course which I venture to submit for the considera- 
 tion of tlu; House. Tlu; hon. tin; President of 
 the Council has not himself been able to jioint out 
 what there can be to refer to the coiiimittee. He 
 was not called upon to do so. He is no doubt not 
 possessed of such information as the hon. member 
 for r.,incoln may be able to submit for our judg- 
 ment. 
 
 Mr. COLBY. I stated that I really di<l not know. 
 
 Mr. I'L.VKE. I say so. I have not the least 
 doubt oi tliat. Xot;e of us are aware of it. We 
 gather its character from the statement of the hon. 
 member himself, and his statement was that there 
 Were other papers which he could produce which 
 
would give, as he said, a different complexion 
 to tliose published. I am not going to weigh or 
 analyse the papers published, with the view n. say- 
 ing whether that allegation is impossible or not of 
 execution. I desire that the lion, member for Lin- 
 coln should have tiie opportunity of laying these 
 papers on the Table, with all the comments and ex- 
 planations lie can give upon them. I desire, under 
 the ciicumstances, tliat as he chose in part to re- 
 serxc his defence — to give us some, but not as he 
 says, all — he should not be placed in a worse posi- 
 tion now than tiiat if he had on that occasion given 
 us all ; but I do not perceive in tliat condition of 
 affairs a cause for a reference to a connnittee. I 
 perceive rather a reason for taking such a 
 course as shall give the hon. gentleman the 
 opportunity of presenting the remainder of his 
 case on tlietloorof Parliament, and as shall thus leave 
 ns to dispose of this matter, with his case 
 complete, according as the dignity and lionor 
 of this House and liberal justice to tl>e hon. 
 member for Lincoln require. The House will 
 
 obser\'e that I liave studiously avoided expressing 
 or implying (me single opinion with reference to 
 the merits of tiie transaction. It is impossible, of 
 course, to avoid foi'ming in one's own mind ini- 
 pi'essions upon papers such as we have before us, 
 init I believe it to be our duty to hold our minds 
 open up to the latest possilde moment. I believe 
 it to bo our duty to empiire whether there be, as 
 the hon. the President of the Council suggested, 
 any explanation, any iloor of esca()e, anything 
 which may alter the complexion wliicli, to some 
 minds, tliese letters ard papers l)ear, and in that 
 view, keeping, as well as I miglit, an open mind, 
 I have scrui)ul(uisly abstained from making any 
 argument or expressing any opinion here as to the 
 conclusions wliicii are to be drawn fi'om the ])aj)er8 
 in our iiands. I repeat, and I close by the 
 suggestion, that we ought to make ari'angements 
 for this case being completed in the manner in 
 whicii it was begun, by the hon. member on the 
 floor, and that we should then proceed to give our 
 judgment in the matter. 
 
 Ottawa : — Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
V. 
 
 x 
 
 \ 
 
 fiou$e of Commons Bebdtes 
 
 FOURTH SESSION — SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECH OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON THE 
 
 CRAND TRUNK RAILWAY BILL. 
 
 FRIDAY, llTH APRIL, 1890. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I think, in so far as my memory 
 serves nic, the extract wliich the lion, gentleman 
 read, correctly states the effect of the law, and 
 there is on the Statute-book a provision, inserted 
 during a somewhat animated discussion which 
 took ])lace here, which would prevent amalgama- 
 tion or working arrangements between the two 
 great corporations of which the hon. member for 
 Xorthunilierland (Mr. Mitchell) has spoken. It is 
 not, therefore, with respect to that difficulty that 
 anything I ha\e to say is brought forward. If 
 that (piestion were raised, I agree with the h(m. 
 member that it wouhl be a vital question, a ques- 
 tion which certainly could not be disposed of, 
 under any proper reading of our rules, without a 
 proper notice and without a reference back to the 
 ('ommittee. 15ut a suggestion which the hon. mem- 
 ber for Northumberland (Mr. Mitchell) has made, 
 may, perhaps, solve the immediate difficulty, 
 and enable us to deal with this measure upon what 
 I conceive to be sound jjrinciples. I feel, perhaps, a 
 special responsibility with respect to the present 
 po.sition of this Bill, because it happens that, upon 
 looking over the earlier measure to which the hon. 
 gentleman has alluded, it appeared to me, as then 
 framed, objectionable. It seemed to me that the 
 Parliament of Canada ough"; to lay down this rule : 
 that it would not grant the power of amalgamation 
 or working arrangements without having passed 
 once, at all events, upon the ])roposition that it 
 was expedient that such powers shouM be given. 
 .And, therefore, I suggested to those who ,were 
 promoting the other Bill, that they shouhl alter 
 the Bill and limit their powers to cases in which 
 
 the Parliament of Canada had once spoken affirm- 
 atively. I said, if Parliament has given to any 
 railway company either a general authority to 
 make working arrangements with any other com- 
 pany, or a special authority to make working 
 aiTangements with a particular railway company, 
 then there is no objection to Parliament siiying to 
 another company : You can make working arrange- 
 ments with any company so authorised ; because 
 Parliament in that case has already said there is no 
 objection to such an amalgamation l)eing effected. 
 And it was upon that suggestion as to the 
 expediency, on general principles, of retaining the 
 power to the Pcarliament of Canada, to that extent, 
 that the other Rill was altered, with, I believe, the 
 unanimous consent of the Railway Committee. It 
 seems to me the principle is as good and sound 
 to-day, and with respect to this Bill, as it was 
 with respect to the other Bill, and, therefore, I 
 object, upon the same grounds on which I ol)jccted 
 to theotherBill comjirehending thatwi<leauthority, 
 ta this Bill comprehending as wide an authority as 
 the hon. gentleman proposes. If there be, as the hon. 
 member for Northumberland (Mr. Mitchell) has 
 said, some specific case, which it is wanted to meet 
 in a hurry tliis Session, for the amalgation or the 
 making of working arrangements with .sfime par- 
 ticular railway, we can still preserve the general 
 principle, which I deem to be of importance, by 
 allowing the general clause to be retained in its 
 revised form, and by inserting a clause giving 
 special authority to deal with the specified com- 
 pany, as the hoi . gentleman has suggested, and 
 thus we shall ha\ e met the case fully. 
 
 OTTAWA :— Printed by Brown Chamberlts, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
ottse of Commons Bebat^s 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 DEBATE 
 
 ON THE 
 
 POWER OF DISALLOWANCE, 
 
 TUESDAY, 29Tn APEIL, 1890. 
 
 Mr. l^LAKl'L Pursuant to the notice which I 
 Ignvo some chiy.s ago, I rise to move in amendment : 
 
 To leave out all this worila after " Tftiit " and insert the 
 ■following:— " it is expedient to provide means whereby, 
 Ion solemn occasions touching tlio c.vorcisc of the power 
 lof disHJlowanco, or of the appellate i)ower as to cduca- 
 Itional IcKisliition, important (lucftions of law or fad may 
 •bo referred by tlie Executive to a hitrh judicial tribunal 
 lior hearing and consideration, in such mode that the 
 lauthorities and parties interested may he represented 
 Jaiid that a reasoned opinion may ho obtained loi the ia- 
 jformation of the Executive." 
 
 lAt this stage of the Session I shall endeavor to 
 Bconiprise within tlie briefest j)ossil)le limits tiiose 
 lohservations which I have to make in supi)(,'it of 
 [this proposition. I would say that recent, current, 
 land imminent events iiave coml)ined to convince 
 jnie tluit it is important in the pul)lic interest that 
 {this motion should receive attention during this 
 jiSession, else I should not liave propomided it 
 (at this time. I j)ropound it, as its language 
 jimplies, and as, I tiiink, y(m will ol)serve before I 
 [sit down, in no hostile spirit towanls tlie xVdminis- 
 Itration ; and its form is one which is not necessarily 
 [liostile, Imt which I have adopted on this occasion. 
 I not witii any view of precludini; in amendment, hut 
 j because it is the only availal)le inetliod l)y which I 
 lean now iioi)e to bring the matter under youi' con- 
 Isiderationatall. Now, Sir, tlie federal constitutiiui 
 I of Canada speciallj' demands our attention to tiie 
 legality of its legislative Acts. We have within 
 I our liorders seven Provincial Legislatures, one 
 I Territorial Assembly and this Parliament, all ami 
 I each with limited powers, all and each hedged in 
 by limitations — with reference to the Provincial 
 Legislatures and the Parliament, as between tiicse 
 two, and with reference to lioth the Provincial 
 j Legislatures and the Parliament, as between them 
 [both and the reserved powers of the Iniperial Par- 
 lliament — with limited jiowers, I say, any excess, 
 lor attempted excess of which in legislation is abso- 
 I lutely void. Our several constitutions are partly 
 [unwritten and undefined ; they are also largely, 
 Iperhaps, I may say, mainly, written and de- 
 Ifined. And so it has happened that we have 
 ifallen into the use of the word constitutional in 
 
 two very different senses ; one, the only sense in 
 which it is useil in the mother country, whose cim- 
 stituthin, being the growtli of customs, precedents, 
 practices and princi))les, and not being a written 
 instrument, unalteial)le l)y the Parliament, Parlia- 
 ment being itself su])rcme — whose constitution, I 
 say, is a tiling elastic, ))lastic, ciianging, of the 
 spirit, not of the letter ; ami so, when we speak, 
 in tlie Knglish sen.se, of an Act being constitutional 
 or unconstitutional, we refer to its spirit, we refer 
 to the question wliether it is in accord witii, or in 
 violation of, the spirit of tli? constitution. Hut we 
 have another sense in which we use the word in 
 a sen.se peculiar to ourselves, or at any rate, dis- 
 tinct from its use in tlie mother country ; we use 
 it also to exjiress an Act in excess of our legal 
 powers, In the tirst class of cases, however obnox- 
 ious may lie the Act that we condemn, it is iiever- 
 tlieless iniiisputably valid ; in the second class 
 of cases, however useful we may consider the 
 Act we aie discussing, it is null and void. The 
 first class of cases depends on political considera- 
 tiims entirely (uitsi<le the judicial domain, which 
 is (juite untittcd for their disposition ; the second 
 chiss depends ujion legal considerations fitted 
 for the judicial domain, and which ought, as 
 far as may be, to be kejit witiiin it. Yet, Sir, 
 no Legislature or Kxecutive can, any more tiian 
 any private individual, act at all witliont con- 
 sidering, and in a sense deciding for itself, the 
 legality of its acts, and so in some sort, entering 
 upon the judicial department. Hut not upon 
 the domain of tlie judicial ))ower ; becau.><e our 
 opinion that (uir acts are valid does not make 
 them so ; their validity depends upon the decision 
 of the judicial authority, and upon that alone. 
 Now, Sir, tiie general notion that the executive, 
 the legislative and the judicial departments of 
 government ought to be, so far as practicable, 
 separate and apart, is one held by many of 
 the most eminent constitutionalists as a fundamen- 
 tal principle. There can be no doubt that the ab- 
 solute union of these departments is neither more 
 nor less than absolute despotism. Unite in one 
 hand, I care not whether it be the hand of an auto- 
 
crat or tlie Imnd of a ('ouiicil, Uw. powei' of k'^islii- i 
 tioii, tlic ])o\vi!r of iidjucliciitioii, aiid tlie j)owc'r < 
 of iicIniiniHtriitioii, iiikI you iiiuko tliu ii>o»t iil>!so- 
 lute despot that is i;onci;ival)le. 'J'liu .separation, 
 tlieri'fort', of tlii'so <lepartnifnt», tlio degree to 
 wliieii, \vitiir)Ut ovei-weulieniuy or over-eoiuplicat- 
 iiig tlie action of the niaeliine, yon can separate 
 tiieni, niariis tiie degree to wliieli, in this iispeet of 
 a eonstitutional system, yon have attained perfc^e- 
 tion. 1 do not say that they can he al)solnlely and 
 always sepai'atc(l. It is not so. Now, my ohject 
 is to apply tliese general views, whieli 1 liave l)rielly 
 stated, to one important ehiss of piihlic trans- 
 actions so far as may he found praeticahle ; and 
 that I'lass of pul)lie transactions is divided, as yon 
 will .see liy my notic(% into two snhject nrittctrs, in 
 whicli tile Dominion i'',xeentive, itself a political 
 body, lias a constitutional <luty, tlie discharge of 
 wliicii involves llie interpretation of statutes, anil 
 thus tiie solution of strictly legal (piestionH ; and 
 in which also tin's Parliament, whicli lias tlie right 
 to advi.se, to condemn or to ajiprove, has, or may 
 have, duties of its own. I hy no means j)io))ose to 
 withdraw from the Kxecuti\e its iluty ; my ohject 
 is to aid it in tiie efficient execution of its duty. I 
 make no attempt at this time to discuss tlie pro- 
 priety of the.se constitutional provisions, or, in any 
 general .sense, the executive, tlie parliamentary oi' 
 the party action wliicli has tended more or less, to 
 elucidate the generally accepted or the generally 
 opposing views n])on these subjects. Aly only 
 wish is, witliout discussing how fai' tliese ])rovisions 
 are wise, taking them as they are, to facilitate the 
 better working of them. 'Die tirst of the two 
 classes to which 1 allude is that in whicli the ju'o- 
 posal comes liefore the H.xecutive, to disallow an 
 Act of a Provincial Legislature on the ground tliat 
 that Act is it/fm c/zv-v. If it lie so, the Act is void ; 
 and I tliink I may say, that it is now generally 
 agreed that void Acts shonhl not he disallowed, 
 but should be left to the action of the courts. It 
 is, nevertheless, and I think with sound I'eason, 
 eoiiten<led, tliat eircumstaiu'es of great general 
 iiiconvenieiice or ])rejndice from a Dominion stand- 
 point, and involving ditliculty, delay, or tlie iin- 
 possibilitj of a resort to law, may justify the ;iolicy 
 of di.sallowance, even in cases in wliicli the Act 
 is ii/fra rins, and therefore void. In that view 
 there would arise two (|uestioiis, tlie (|iiostion of 
 policy, and the <]iiestioii of legality ; beeau.se the 
 question of legality leaves untouched the iiuestion 
 of ])olicy, which is, " even if tlie Act be void, .shall 
 it be disaUowed or no '! " The other class to which 
 my motion alludes, is that of the Kducational 
 apjieal, wliicli arises under section 9.'{ of the Con- 
 stitutional Act, and under the analogous provision 
 of the Manitoba (.'onstitutional Act. Under these 
 clauses a limited power to make Educational laws 
 is granted to a Province, jirovided, amongst other 
 things, that nothing therein contained shall jire- 
 jiidicially afl'ect any right, or jirivilege, with 
 respect to denominational schools which any of 
 the Provinces had by law, or, in the ease of ,^lani- 
 toba, by practice, at the Union. There is another 
 class of restrictions, which I do not in terms touch 
 here, but to which, in cases in which an appeal is raised 
 upon them, my oliservations would equally apply. 
 This limitation ujion the power of a Province is 
 made more etl'ectual by a sjiecial pro% ision, giving 
 an appeal to the Uoniinion Executive from any Act 
 or decision of the Provincial Legislature or Author- 
 
 ities affecting any right oi' privilege of the Pr< 
 tcstunt or |{oman ('atholi<^ minority in relation to 
 education ; and whereby also, in ease of the non- 
 (execution by the Province of the decision of the 
 Executive, this Parliament may maki; n^medial 
 laws for the pur])o.se of cllecttiating tliat decision. 
 Thosi^ members who have long been here wilt well 
 remember the New Ihnnswiuk school casi\ which 
 was agitate<l for many years; in the course of which 
 agitation [ have hojied that some ))olitica' aspects ot 
 tliat and of analogous (|U(Stions were; tinally .settled 
 .settled, at all events, for the bulk of the party 
 with which I ait, and for the hundile individual 
 who is now addressing you. I regard it as settled, 
 for myself at any r>'.te, tirst of all, that, as aipiestion 
 of policy, there i-liiill be no disallowance of Educa- 
 tional legislatirn, for the mere reason that, in the 
 ojiinion of this Parliament, .some other or diU'eicnl 
 jiolicy than that which the Province has thought 
 tit to ailopt would be a better ]iolicy. I hold it 
 to be settled, in the .second phiee, that no Address 
 to the t'rown shall be ])as.sed liy this Parliament 
 asking for a change of the t'onstitutional Act as 
 afl'ecting any Province, at any rate against the will 
 of that Province, in this jiartieular. And I hold 
 it to be settled, thirdly ; indce<l it f(dlows olivi- 
 ously from tlie.se two propositions, that the only 
 <piestions which can practically arise within oni' 
 domain an; .such ae may lie rai.scd, by way of 
 apjieal, under section !),'l and the analogous section 
 of the Manitoba Act. The events which took 
 place in connection with the New Brunswick 
 school case atl'ord, to my.self at all events, a strong 
 jiroof of the expediency of what 1 now jiropose. 
 Let me enf(U'ce the three prop<isitioiis which 1 
 have stated by a brief reference to the votes 
 njion that occasion. In part those votes were 
 taken when lion, gentlemen o])|iositc were in 
 power, ill part they wei'e taken when the Liberal 
 party were in (lower. The Hist stage in the trans- 
 action occurred when lion, gentlemen (ip))osite were 
 in power ; and in May, I.ST'J, 1 voted with the ma- 
 jority of the Hou.se against a motion to regret 
 that the New Urunswick sclund law had not been 
 disallowed by the (iovermiient to which I was 
 ojiposed ; although 1 was, and expressed niyself, 
 of the ;)]iiv.ion tliat some of the changes w hicli 
 had been made by that Provincial law were harsh 
 changes. At the same time, I seconded a motion, 
 which fortunately also prevailed : 
 
 " That thi.s House deems it oxiiodient that the opinion 
 of the law otticors in England, and if possible of thu 
 .Judicial Comniittce of the Privy Council, slnmli] be ob- 
 tained as to tlie rinlit of the New lirunswiok Lcfti.-^ladin' 
 to niiike siicli chiiiiBi's in the school law ms depriveil 
 Roman Catholics of tlio iirivilpRos which tliey cnjoyeil 
 at the Union, in respect of religious education in the 
 common schools, with a view of nscertiiining wliether 
 the case comes within the terms of sub-section 4 ot' 
 section 9H of the liritish North America Act of 1807. 
 which autliori.«ed the Parliament of Canada to enact 
 remedial laws for the duo execution of the provisions 
 respecting education in tlio said Act." 
 
 At that time, I need hardly remind the House, 
 there was no Supreme Court in existence. The 
 advice of the law officers was obtained, and it was, 
 as it had been on prior, and as I am afraid, if 
 I may judge liy a notice on the paper, it has 
 been on sul)se(iuent occasions, not perhaps very 
 satisfying ; and ihere was no mode of approach 
 apparently to the Judicial Committee. In the 
 enil we had to get up a suit in some way or 
 other, about some a.sse88ment or other, in order to 
 
 '■obtau 
 
 'judici 
 
 fiift. 
 
 |tlie 
 
 *tage 
 
 'I, I 
 
6 
 
 ivili'),'o of the Pro- 
 ority in relation to 
 II Ciitsu (if the iinii- 
 he (leeiHion of tlic 
 ay iiiakt! iiMiieilial 
 itiiij; lliat decision. 
 Iieen lieiv will Well 
 Nfliool ease, wliieh 
 the eonise of wiiicli 
 ' |)iilitii'al a.s|ieetHof 
 wci'e tinally .settled 
 • liidk of the party 
 hunilile individual 
 i'egar(l it an settled, 
 , that, as ai|uestion 
 llowanee of Kdnea- 
 reason that, in the 
 e other or ditl'eient 
 vince has tlK.u-^iit 
 jioliey. 1 hold it 
 :e, that no Addre.is 
 liy this i'arliauient 
 [istitutional Aet as 
 ate against the will 
 eiilar. And J hold 
 eil it follows r)l)vi- 
 ona, that the only 
 ly arise within oiii' 
 raised, by way of 
 e analogous section 
 events which took 
 i New IJrnnswick 
 all events, a strong 
 hat 1 now proiKise. 
 opositions which I 
 ence to the vote.-^ 
 those votes were 
 ojiposite were in 
 when the Liberal 
 stage in the trans- 
 enien opposite were 
 r)ted with the ma- 
 motion to regret 
 law had not been 
 to which I was 
 expressed myself, 
 le changes which 
 il law were harsh 
 econded a motion, 
 1: 
 
 iont that the opinion 
 (1 if possihle of tlio 
 lUiicil, .•ilimild be oli- 
 ■im.-^wiok LoKifiatun' 
 il law 'IS depriveil 
 which tlicy cnjoycil 
 IS educiition in lh<' 
 '(•crtiiiiiinB wliether 
 of sub-sccUon 4 <if 
 incricii Act of 18C7, 
 il Canadii to cniict 
 
 Ml of the provisions 
 
 J) 
 
 mind the House, 
 existence. The 
 tained, and it was, 
 IS I am afraid, if 
 the paper, it lues 
 not perhaps very 
 node of approach 
 mmittee. In the 
 in some way or 
 other, ill order to 
 
 jbtain, liy a chunsy and expensive proeess, a 
 ^judicial decisifni, not reaclieit for some years 
 wiftcrwards, of the (piestion involved and stateil in 
 Ithe motion wliich I havi^ just I'ead. The second 
 stage of those profcedings aro»(^ in 1H7.'>, when 
 ])resent Minister of Inland Revenue (Mr. 
 :'ostigan), whom I regret not to see here, being 
 hen in opposition, gave notice of a motion for an 
 Addicss to the Crown ])raying for an alteration in 
 he Constitutional Act as it alt'ected the I'rovince 
 )f \(!W llriinswick in this regard. Upon that 
 notice licing given, 1 jiiit upon the Votes and I'ro- 
 [eeedings notice of an amendment, which I take 
 Jlcave to I'ead as exjircs.sing the views I then enter- 
 iiined, and still entertain (m that aspect of the 
 [(ju 'stion. This was my not'ce : 
 
 That prior to the Union. New Briuiswick had solo and 
 [cxelasive control over ilsecUicational .system. 
 J " Tliat under the Union Act, as construed by the 
 J.ludii-ial Conunittee of the Privy Coancil, such control 
 I was reserved to, and has ever since been retained by New 
 |]!rnnswick. 
 
 I " That New lirunswick has not sipnitiod any williiiRness 
 jthat the Union Act shouUl bo amended in this particnhir. 
 i " That any encroachment made anainst tbe will of New 
 llirnnswick, on the powers so reserved, won Id, by diniinisli- 
 ^inu tlic security now enjoyed by each Province tor the 
 :' maintenance of its provincial rights, tend to subvert the 
 |constitntion. 
 
 *, " Tinit whatever ma.v bo the opinions of members of 
 ithis House <hi t lie educational policy of any Province, this 
 ^llousc (U'cms it inexpedient to aildress tluM'rown in favcu' 
 3of a nj- amendment which woulil, against the will of the 
 ll'rovMice, encroach on the powers reserved to it in re- 
 «ppcct to education." 
 
 fWhen the nu)tion of the present Minister of Inland 
 
 ll'evcnue ultiuwitely came on, my hou. fiieiid from 
 
 l?the Kast Riding of York (.Mr. Mackenzie), then 
 
 .p<'irst Minister, moveil the following amendment: — 
 
 5 " I'hat in the opinion of tjiis House, legislation by the 
 ;.rarlianK'nt of tbe United Kingdom, encroaching on any 
 Jiowcrs reserved lo any one of the Provinces by the liritisli 
 tfsorth America Act, lSt)7, would be an infraction of the 
 ^'rovincial Constitution, and that it woulil be inexpedient 
 Jjnnd fraught with ilangcr to the autonomy of each of the 
 |l'rovinces, for this House to invite such legisbition." 
 
 (fl'his amendment, for which 1 voted, was carried, 
 (hvith the addition of an amendment inviting the 
 ^rienilly interxention of the Im]ierial authorities 
 fwitli the ( iovernuu'nt of New lirunswick for some 
 Ichange by their own voluntary action ; the ojiinion 
 ,|of the House continuing to be as it iiad been in the 
 .f[u-evious I'arliament, that the legislation which 
 |\vas the subject of agitation was in some pai'ticu- 
 |lars harsh, and might better have been otherwise ; 
 Jbut that this was a tjueation for the I'rovince 
 |freely to decide. I have, I thiid^, ])roved my case. 
 <|?\ow, .Sir, in the exercise of this ])owei' of disal- 
 |lowance by the (iovei'ninent, ])olitical nuestions 
 « ill, or at any rate may, probably, always arise. 
 Questions of policy may present themselves, that 
 (luestions of exj)ediency, of convenience, of the 
 pid)lic interest, of the spirit of the constitution or 
 jf the form of legislation. All these are clearly, 
 !xclusively for the executive and legislative, that 
 jis for the political departments of the (iovernment. 
 But it is eijually clear, that when in order to de- 
 termine your course you must lind whether a par- 
 ■Tticular act is ultra or iii/ra (•/;•< -s, you are <liseharg- 
 ing a legal and a judicial function. What do you 
 do ? You proceed to interpret the Constitutional 
 LCt, and to declare its meaning ; you proceed to 
 [nterpret the Provincial Act under consideration 
 md to declare its meaning ; yon proceed to com- 
 )are the two statutes so interpreted and declared ; 
 md you proceed, finally, to conclude whether or 
 
 not the law conflicts with, or transeeiuls the powers 
 which are conferred upon the Legislature which 
 j)a.ssed it. Nothing that can be conceived jiar- 
 takes more exclusively of the character of a legal 
 and judicial operation than what I have just now 
 described. Again, when you aet im the appellate 
 Kducational clauses ; as, for example, in the case 
 of Manitolia, the very case which is now in a sense 
 pending, as to whether recent legislation be within 
 the limits of the rights of the Provincial Legis- 
 lature, and whether any relief is due under the 
 ai)])ellate clause to those who claim it, you have a 
 legal i|Uestion, or rather, in this ca.se, a mixe<l 
 (juestion of law and of fact ; which circumstance it 
 was that induced me to insert tin woril "fact" 
 in my motion, conscious as 1 was that it was only 
 on the rarest occasions that any references of that 
 descri|)tion would be necessary. Yet it .seemed to 
 me that, in this ])articuhir instance, I was con- 
 strained to prr)vide for an emei-gency which may 
 ari.se. Now, what is the process to be gone 
 through in order to reach a conclusion ? The first 
 involves that very (question of fact, or rather a 
 mixed (|uestion of law and fact. You have to find 
 whether any class of the ])opulation had by law or 
 practice, at the time of the Union, any, and, if so, 
 what right or privilege w ith respect to denomina- 
 tion.il schools. Secomtly, if so, you have to tind 
 whether that right or j)i'ivilege has been affected, 
 and how it has been alfected, by the legislation 
 eom))lained of ; and thirdly, if so, you have to find 
 what legislative action is rc(|uire(l to redress the 
 wrong. The first two questions at any rate are 
 legal anil not at all political. Now, I avei' that in 
 the decision of all legal ipu'stions, it is important 
 that the (lolitical executive should not, more than 
 can be avoided, arrogate to itself judicial powers ; 
 ancl that when, in the discharge of its [)olitical 
 duties, it is called u))on to deal w ith legal (|ues- 
 ti(Uis, it ouLcht have the ])owcr in cases of solem- 
 nity and import'.nce, where it may be thought ex- 
 pedient so to do, to call in aid the judicial ilepart- 
 ment in order to arrive at a correct solution. The 
 decision that an Act is ultra i'(*v.s, and its eonseipient 
 di.sallowanee by the Executive are incidents pecu- 
 liar in practice tr) our.selves. They do imt exist in 
 the great exam))lo of the Rej)\d)lic to the south of 
 tis. It is a most dclicati; function, and its exercise 
 invr)lves most serious ulterior con.seciuences. The 
 (piestion is by the decision of the Executive finally 
 decided, and the Act is obliterated and annidleil. 
 The (juestion whether it was or was not valid is so 
 removed from judicial cognisance for ever. And 
 thus by repeated exercises of the power of disal- 
 lowance,, in respect to repeated provincial legis- 
 lation, the Province m.'iy practically Ix; deprived 
 of that which all the time may be a real right ; — a 
 right claimed, which may lie a right justly claimed. 
 Thus, one of two limited (loverrimeiits, of which 
 it nuiy be said in a general sense that the spnere 
 of the jurisdicti(m of the fme is limited by the 
 sphere of the jurisdiction of the other ; — one of 
 these two limited (iovernments, may practically 
 decide the extent of the limits, of what in a sense, 
 is its rival Government. That is a very delicate 
 position. It is a little like the position which a 
 great numy very good and wise persons contem- 
 plate with grave alarm, as to the pretensions 
 of one church to decide what are the limits of 
 power, as between Church and State, — to decide 
 for itself these limits and thus, if that power be 
 
udinitted, to arrogate hucIi rightH aH it pleases to 
 itself. A (lecision iiii<ler hucIi eirciinmtances is 
 alnioMt iie'je«mvi'ily a Huspected deuisioii. Tiiere is 
 a HL'iiHu ill vviiieii it is the decision of a ])arty in his 
 own cause. And tiicrefore, for that rea.son only, if 
 for no other, it should he fortified iis far ii.s 
 po.ssil>le by neutral, dignilied and jndicial aid. 
 ,So, in the case of an Educational a]>|)eal, analogous 
 results at any rate, may ensue ; hecause here also 
 tlie decision woiihl liar juilicial action, and produce 
 coercive legishition, iiii|)o.siiig that ilecLsion on the 
 Province ; and would tiius, according to tiieoiiiniou j 
 of tile Dominion Kxecutive and i'arliaineiit, ami to 
 that alone, end tiie ([Uestion. Now, do I say that in 
 all cases the Kxecutive should refer? I do not say 
 so ; my motion does not say so ; my opinion is not so. 
 I have referred -using language for this purpose 
 which is recorded in the constitutions of some of 
 the most r<;s])ected .States of the ll'.pulilic — to 
 solemn occasions anil to important (piestions ; but 
 my motion is framed in this regard in what I con- 
 ceive to be tiie spiiit of the Hritisli and of our own 
 constitution. It is elastic ; it leaves a responsi- 
 bility to tlie Kxecutive to decide on the aeticm to 
 betaken in tlie particulai' case; it deals with the 
 case as exceptional. My own opinion is, that wlieii- 
 evtr, in ojiposition to the continued view of a I'ro- 
 vincial Kxecutive and Legislature, it is contem- 
 plated by the Dominion I'iXecutive to disallow a 
 Provincial Act because it is ultra rircs, there ought 
 to be a reference ; anil also tiiat there ought to be 
 a reference in certain eases where the condition of 
 juiblic opinion renders exiiedient a .solution of legal 
 pro))lems, dissociated from those eleiiienta of pas- 
 sion and expediency wliicii are, rightly or wrongly, 
 too often attriliuted to the action of political 
 bodies. And again, [ for my ])art would recommend 
 such a reference in all cases of Kdueational aiijieal — 
 cases which necessarily evoke the feelings to which 
 I have alluded, and to one of wiiicli, I am frank to 
 say, my present motion is mainly due. Our present 
 powers. Sir, are wholly iiiailei(uate for tlie etlectual 
 execution of the project in hand. There is no cer- 
 tainty — there is in ordinary cases I'ather an iinjiro- 
 bability — of our lieing able to reach the Judicial 
 Committee ; and as to all the three possible appeals 
 or references, the Judicial Committee of the I'rivy 
 Council, the Supreme Cou't, and the Imperial law 
 orticers, the machinery is extremely defective. 
 There is no iirovision for the representation of the 
 different interests ; there is no provision for the as- 
 certainment of facts ; there is no provision for the 
 reasoned opinion of the tribunal. Now, even where 
 under special provisiims on mir own Statute-book, 
 the first of these three reiiuisite.s il id exist — as in the 
 case of the Licjuor License Act, where we made a 
 special provision for a nfi reiice to the Supreme 
 Court, anil for the appearance of and argument by 
 opposing parties ; as in the case of the Manitoba 
 Railway crossings matt(;r, where under a general 
 law the Railway Committee of the Privy 
 Council referred an important constitutional 
 question to the Supreme Court, with pi'ovision, 
 which the law allowed, for the argument 
 by opposing parties — even in these cases, which 
 come nearest to that degree of perfection to which 
 I desire to attain, the results were not satisfactory ; 
 — why ? Because the remaining reijuisite did not 
 exist, in sucth form, at any rate, that it was used. 
 There was no reasoned opinion ; no grounds 
 were stated by the tribunal for the conclusion 
 
 which it shortly gave in renly to the Kxecutive, 
 The lion. First Minister will recollect expressing 
 his own dissatisfaction with the opinion of tlic 
 Supreme Court in the li(|Uor licensi; ca.se, on that 
 very ground, and he will rememlur that that 
 circumstance involved aprolongatif n of the struggle 
 and further proceedings ; until in the end, tiir 
 (luestion was deemed settled by an aigument and a 
 reasoned judgment of the tJuilicial Committer 
 which had earlier occurred ; and by an unrea-soned 
 o|)inioii of the same tribunal on appeal from thr 
 Sujirenie Court. I say, the lack of this last re- 
 (piisite deprivi'd those proceedings of their chief 
 value ; they obliged us to resort toother methods ; 
 they left only as their ret-ult the disposition of an 
 isolated cast;, with no general application, and ot 
 no jiermanent use. It wasas if some Delpiiic oracle 
 had sjioken. We could not tell, beyond the limited 
 disposition of tlie case in hand, what was actually 
 meant, and not always even that. For my own 
 jiart, I attach little comparative iiii])oitance tn 
 judicial solutions, reached witlioiit argument, and 
 announced without reasons. 'I'liis, .Sir, is only com- 
 nion .sense. The cxpcrieiui^ of mankind has 
 established, as the e.s.seiitial ingredients f'lr 
 the attaininent of justice between man and man, 
 the oppo.siiig arguments of tlie jiarties liefore ii 
 tribunal, and the reasoned judguieiit of that tiibu 
 mil upon tiie arguments so addressed to it. Tin 
 acutest minds are but too a])t to err unless so aided 
 in the formation of their judgment, and .socln;ckei| 
 in the aniinunccment of it. Wliicli of us, I ask, 
 would suliniit, in any important case of his 
 own, to such a method of reaching a conclusion '.' 
 .Villi how can we expect that the cnmiiuinity iii 
 large will submit to such a method in the public 
 cause? Let the opposing views be stated, ])ri- 
 .seiited and sifted in public, and in the )ircseiice of 
 the parties ; so the best materials for consideration 
 will be obtained. Let the conclusions themselves 
 be reasoned out ; so will the judgment itself be best 
 tested and sifted, and its .soundness ascertained. 
 It may be said thac these views, ap|)licable to pri 
 vate causes and lo the ordinary transactions ot 
 niankind, hiive less ajiplication or none to constitu- 
 tional ipiestions. I should deny, on reason, any 
 such view ; and I refer, in the contrary sense, 
 to a ipiotation from Hryce's recent book upon the 
 American Constitution, which shows, what one 
 would have expected, that if there be a distinction, 
 it is in favrr of the ajiplication of these principles 
 to this class of cases. Siieaking of the illustrious 
 exponent of the United States constitution. Chief 
 •lustice Marshall, that author .says : 
 
 " Chief .Tastioe Miushall's work of buildiuR up anil 
 workiiiK out the eonstitiitioii was aceoiiipli.shoil not .si> 
 mach by tho decision.s he nave a? by the juilpriiionts in 
 which tic expoundeii tho principles of these ileci.sioiis, 
 judgments which, for their philosophical breadth, tlio lu- 
 minous exactness of their rea.sonins?, and the fine politiciil 
 sense which pervades them, have never been suriiasseil 
 and rarely eijualled by the most t'ainoiis jurists of modem 
 Europe or of ancient Rome. Marshall old not forget tho 
 duty of n indue to decide nothingmore than tUesuit l>efort' 
 him rcc(uire,s, but he was wont to set for tho grounds of 
 his decision in such a way as to show how they would fail 
 to be applied in cases not .vet arisen." 
 
 A ludile function, which I wish we could see 
 applied in Ciinada ! Now, for want of this, as I 
 have said, our occasional efforts to obtain light 
 have restdted less satisfactorily than I could wisli 
 - sometimes in eliiinsy, slow, expensive, and but 
 slightly fruitful proceedings ; sometimes in absolute 
 
 
 
 
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' to the Exccutivi:. 
 rt'coUuut oxpresBiiii,' 
 tliu opinion of tile 
 ict'ns(! iiusi!, on llnu 
 nienilxr tiiat tliiu 
 iitii n of tlif struggle 
 til in tliu end, the 
 ' an iii'gunR'nt uml ii 
 ludiuiiil {'oinniittcc 
 111 liy an unrfasoni'il 
 on appeal from the 
 ick of this last rt- 
 lings of tlioir chief 
 I to f)thtr niotliocl.s ; 
 he (linpoHition of an 
 apjilieation, and of 
 some Delphie oraele 
 , hoyond the limiteil 
 , \\ hat was actually 
 that. For my own 
 tive iiiipoitanee to 
 lout aigunient, and 
 lis, Sir, is oidy com- 
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 .1 ingredients for 
 k'een man and man, 
 le ))arties liefoi'e a 
 i;nient of that trihii- 
 li'essed to it. Tin 
 
 ori' unless so aided 
 lent, awl so checked 
 Which of us, I ask, 
 rtant case of his 
 liing a c(aiclusion '; 
 
 the coiunuinity at 
 ethod in the puhlic 
 ws ht: stated, jire- 
 
 1 in the jiresence of 
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 lusions themselves 
 
 gment itself l)e liest 
 
 ness ascertained. 
 
 ap))licalile to \>vi- 
 iry transactions ol 
 iv none toconstitu- 
 on reason, any 
 le contrary sense, 
 cent hook upon the 
 
 shows, what one 
 ire he a distinction, 
 f these ])rinciples 
 
 of the illustrious 
 constitution, Chief 
 lys : 
 
 of buildinK up and 
 accouiplisliod not 
 by the judKinonfs in 
 ■i of these ilecisions 
 hiciil brendth, tlio In 
 
 anil the fiiio politioiil 
 ever lieeii .surpu.ssed 
 ons jurists of modern 
 nil (lid not forget the 
 than thcsuit before 
 for the Kroands (if 
 V how they would fail 
 
 ish we could see 
 want of this, as 1 
 
 ts to ol)tain light 
 than I could wish 
 xpensive, anil but 
 
 nctiniea in absolute 
 
 faihiro ; and always with loss, for tlio want of the 
 adeijuati^ provision to wliicli I invite the attention 
 of the House. 1, myself, have olijeclcil on 
 former oe(,asion» to the reference of unargued, 
 alistraet (piestions for an niii'easoned opinion. 
 1 think it is olijectionahle. It is better than 
 nothing in some cjises ; in .somu,' cases, I woidd 
 adopt it if the only resort. I have advised it 
 before, and wmdd advise it again, liut, as a 
 ride, I still adheie to that view ; and because I 
 adhere to it, I ]iropose a more excellent way. Ihit 
 though some theoretical objections may still re- 
 main to the guarded plan which 1 pro]iose, the 
 main objections aie most un((nestionalily removed 
 by tlieailoi)tion of these precautions. The balance 
 of advantage is decidedly one way, and that is all 
 tliat in human nllairs wn enii ex])eet to attain. 
 Xow, Sir, our present law ])ro\ ides a power to the 
 Kxecutive to nnike siuh a reference ; and such a 
 reference may, at this day, be made without any 
 of the.si' |)recautions, while it cannot be niade witli 
 them. .My proposal, therefore, inv(dvesa check ninl 
 a limitation, as well as an added' power. With 
 reference to the theoretical objections to which 1 
 have alluded, and which have been pres.sed vi'iy 
 much in the United States wlieie, however, there 
 is this cardinal dill'erence, that they are not at all 
 called upon to deal with this i|Uestion of disallow- 
 ance or of afipeal with ri^fereiice to the theorelicnl 
 objections there laiseil on the (jiiesti(Ui as theie 
 presented, Mr. Ihyce, in the work to which I have 
 alluded, points out the corresponding disadvan- 
 tages, even there, of the absence of some such pro- 
 visions. They are ; 
 
 " To ."etlle at onee iiml forevern disputed p(iin( ofeonsti- 
 lulioniil law, W(ndd dlfen ben K'liii Imlh lopriviile eitizen? 
 anil to the tu'tiniis of llie lioverninenl. I'nder the present 
 system, there is no eerl , i i nl y when, i fever, sin-li :i poini will 
 bosctlleil. Nobody may i^iire lo ini-nr the expense and 
 Ironble ot'takinc; it liel'iire llie eonri ; and a sail whieli 
 raises it may be compromised or dropped. When siieh a 
 ipieslion, after, perhajis, the laiise of years, comes before 
 the Supreme Conrl and is determined, t'l" detemnnatiim 
 may be d'tferent from what Ihe lejjal profession has ex- 
 pected, may alter Ihal which has been believed lo be the 
 law, may shake or overlhrow private interests based on 
 views now di.'elared to be erroneous." 
 
 IJiit, Sir, besides the great positive gain of obtain- 
 ing the l)eMt guidance, there are other, and in my 
 o]>inion, not unnnpoilant gains besides. Ours is a 
 popular government ; and when burning ipicstimis 
 arise iniiaming the publii' mind, when agitation is 
 rife as to the political action uf the lOxecutive or 
 the Legislature -which action is to be based on 
 legal i|Uestions, obviously lieyond the gras]) of the 
 people at large ; — when the i>eople are (Ui such 
 ipiestions divided by dies of creed and race ; then 
 I maintain that a great |)ublic good is attainable 
 by the submission of such legal i|Uestii>ns to 
 legal tribunals, with all the custonniry securi- 
 ties for a sound judgment ; and whose deci- 
 sions — ])as8ionless and dignitied, acce])teil liy 
 each of us as biinling in our own aii'aiis, involv- 
 ing fortune, freedom, honor, life itself — are most 
 likely to be accepted by us all in (jucstions 
 of public concern. The great IJill for Local (iov- 
 ernment in Irehiiul, introduced by Mr. (iladstone 
 in ISSti, and which, despite its defects— and I am 
 amongst those who have always thought they were 
 very serious — is, eimsidering the eondillons of its 
 jueparation, one of the most wonderful produc- 
 tions of its kind, made provision for the estab- 
 lishment of this principle of reference in this chiss 
 2 B 
 
 of eases. It arranged for a reference, eitlinr by 
 the l.,oiil Lieutenant of Ireland at his option, or 
 the Knglish Secretary of .State at his, to the .ludi- 
 cial Committee of the I'rivy Council of all ipies- 
 tions of ii/trii /•//•(■< arising on legislative I'ills and 
 ,\cts of the Irish Legislature, and it provided that 
 the decisjon should be iinal. The Legislature of 
 (hitariolia.i passed two general statutes, lu'ovid- 
 ing, in the one case, for the institution of declara- 
 tory actions actinns for judicial declarations upon 
 such subjects ;and in the other, for a reference to the 
 courts of such i|Uestions ; and in each ease with 
 those securities which I am anxious we should ]ii<)- 
 vide for ourselves. The lion, the Minister of Justice 
 is at this moment axailing himself of the earlier of 
 those .Vets, foi' the puipose of testing before the law 
 courts, a very important constitutionalipiestion as to 
 the e.-(tent of the lOxecutive power. .Several .States 
 of the Union have, in theii' constitutions, taken the 
 pow er of reference, without these securities. Wo 
 ourselves, as 1 have pointed out, have t.iken the 
 power generally, without these securities. We 
 took it s|iecially in the Liipioi- License .Act, with a 
 |)i>itioii of these .securities ; we took it generally in 
 the railway cases, w ith a portion of these securities. 
 Thus, it is beyoinl our jiower to urge any longer 
 the theoretical idijection ; while liy the proposal 
 which I advance, we can miniuiise those objections, 
 and at the same tiuu! advance the practical utility 
 of the ])idcediwe. If you grant me adetinite i.ssue, 
 a full argument, and a rea.soned judgment, in my 
 view the olijec'ioiis almost vanish, while the 
 advantages enormously increase. I>ut, my pro- 
 posal is by no means radical or revolutionaiy, 
 compidsoiy or general. It is luit an enal)ling juo- 
 posiiion ; it l>ut empowers the Mxecutive to obtain 
 by a |U'oceilure rcpli te with the e^se]ltial re((ui- 
 sites fin' the ])rodin'tion of a sound opinion - 
 the views on legal ipiestions of legal authoiities, 
 leaving to the l^\ecuti\e, so aided, tht; resiionsibili'y 
 of tinal action. I have an alisolute contidcnce that, 
 if my proposal sinnild be declined, the tirst persons 
 to regret that decision will be hon. gentlemen 
 opposite. .My o])inion is, that this is a proposal 
 eminently helpful to tlie Kxecutive of the eiamtry 
 at this time ; lint it is eminently helpful to them, 
 liccan.se it is eminently helpful to the good govern- 
 ment of this country ; and it is in this s])irit that 
 I move the amendment w liicli 1 now sulnnit to the 
 jiidginent of the House. 
 
 Sir .lOIIN" A. M.VCDOXALl). In the Hist 
 place, J acce])t in the fullest sense, the assurance 
 of my hon. friend that his motion has not been laid 
 liefore the House in any s])irit of hostility to the 
 Adnnnislration of the day. On the contrary, I am 
 grateful to the hon. gentleman for having brought 
 forward this subject in the very cai-eful resolution 
 he has jiri'iiared, and still more, for the alile 
 speech in vvhich he has enforced the various jiara- 
 gra|)lis and the main object of tiiat resolution. It 
 is gratifying to know that we have now in the 
 House'of Commons of Ciinada an hon. gentleman 
 vvho is able to give his time and talents to bringing 
 before the rejn esentatives of the |)ei)ple iin])ortant 
 (jucstions of this kind. When I tirst read the 
 hon. gentleman'.s le.solution hastily, it occurred to 
 me, as, I dare say, it occuired to many hon. gentle- 
 men who hear me now, that it w.is an advance 
 towards the Amei-ican .system, and proposed to 
 transfer the responsibility of the Ministry of the 
 
(Itiy to a jiidiuial trilmiiiil ; )>ut on Hoiiiitiing 
 tliu roHoliitiiiii ill itH (Miit'fiilly prt'iiiireil tcrniH, tliut 
 iinpreHHidii wiih ili.sNipati^l, iiikI 1 Haw tliat tliu 
 principal i))>jc(tt of i\w. n'Holiitinn, an I read it, in 
 that tlif (|ueHtionM Hui>niitttMl liy the Kxeiaitive to 
 tlu! jndii'ial ti'il)unul sliouid \>v enforced, HUHtained 
 and prewenti'd to rarliiinient, to tiie jml)lic ant! tr> 
 the ("rown liy tiie fact of tliiH legal ch'ciHion having 
 been given. Ah tlie hon. gentu^nan has MlattMl, 
 when a (iiiesition is Hiihniitted liy the Crown to the 
 courts, tlie Hiniple answer "yes " or " no " is most 
 unsatisfactory. It is a jiroinuicidim ii/o of the 
 court without giving any reason foi' the deiusiou 
 on the decision wliicli has liet^n given. The propo- 
 Mition in this resohilion that the courts could he 
 rcouired liy the Kxi'cutive to hear counsel, to take 
 evidence in ijuestions wheio facts foi'iu a ]iortion 
 of the suliject to lie decided, the fact that it 
 ia ))idvided that the courts can and must give 
 reasons for theii' answer, issufHcient, in my opinion, 
 whether there was or was luit any <ither excellence 
 in the resolution to warrant this House to adopt it. 
 I am sti'ongly <if tlie opinion that this resolution 
 should meet wi(h the favoralile coiisiiU'iatioii of 
 the House. The only objection really that 1 see 
 to it is the fear that, the power being wo eiiiiiiiati- 
 cally given to tlu^ Crown t<i insist upon rea.soiis 
 being given the I'arlianieiit "I Caiiacla, and es- 
 pecially the House of Commons, may he 
 contiiiiially pressed and urged to refer l>ills, 
 whether passed by the Dominion Parliament or 
 the I'rovinciiil Ijcgislatures, to tlu; judicial tribunal. 
 We may have very iiiiiiiiportant ipieations which 
 we would be urged by certain interests to refer 
 to the court. Howe er, the (ioveriimcnt of the 
 day must have force enough to resist any such 
 pres.sure. That is an evil which is comjiaratively 
 unimjxirtant when you consider the great advan- 
 tages of the adoption of this resolution, the prin- 
 ciple of it being that power is to be given to the 
 Executive— an enabling power, as the lion, gentle- 
 man has truly said- to submit any important 
 question to the court, and siiecially on these 
 two points — the (piestioii of disallowance, and the 
 cpieation which may— and I am afraid will -assume 
 large proj)ortions--tlie educational (|uestioii. When- 
 ever the (|uestioii of disallowance is raised on iiii- 
 portaiit matters and the reasons alleged for dii-al- 
 lowance are that the Act itself was u/>ra rinx, 
 that is, that it was beyond the competence 
 of the Legislature which passed it, I coincide 
 with my lion, friend in believing that the Crown 
 
 should have the power of «ubinitting NUcii a (juoh- 
 tioii to the conrtH, and give the opportunity 
 to the authority b<! it legislative or execu- 
 tive, which has passed the statute, to aji- 
 near before such tribunals, and that all parties 
 interested, or ihat the I'oiirt should think were 
 interested, should have the opportunity <if being 
 heard. Of (miiiiw; my lion, friend (Mr. Itlake), in 
 his resolution, has giiardi:il against the siip|iositi<iii 
 that such a decision is binding on the Kxeciili\e. 
 It is expressly stated and that is one of tlu 
 instances which shows that llii < resolution ha.- 
 been most carefully prepared that such a decision 
 is only for the inforiiiation of the ( lovernnient. 
 The Kxeciitive is not lelic^ved from any respoii 
 sibility because of any answer being given by the 
 tribunal. If tlu; Kxecutive were to be relieved e* 
 any such responsibility, I should consider that a 
 fatal blot ill the proposition of my lion, friend. I 
 believe in iesp<iiisible government. 1 liidieve in the 
 res|ioiisibility of the Kxecutive. Hut the answer 
 of the tribunal will be simply for the information 
 of the (Joveiliiuei <. The ( lovernineut may dis.seiit 
 from that decision, and it may be their duty to du 
 8(1 if they ditl'er from the; conclusion to which tlir 
 court has come. There is another point in regard 
 to which tlie court must be giiaiiled in the mea 
 sure wliicli will be introduced not this Session 
 but 1 lio]ie next S«;ssioii based on this resolution, 
 and that is, that the aiiswt^r, whatever it may 
 be, should be considered in the nature of 
 a judgment so far as to allow of an appeal 
 to the Judicial Conimiltee of the I'rivy 
 Council. With tliest! remarks, I will only 
 say further, that I thank the lion, gentleman for 
 having brought this resolution before the House, 
 as I concur with it geiit^rally, though holding the- 
 right with a free hand to fiaiiie the nicasure which 
 will have to lie brought clown to I'arlianieiit in 
 accordance with it. 1 do not think there can be 
 any doubt as to the meaning of the motion of my 
 hoii. friend. I think it is so explicit in its terms 
 that no ((uestioiis can arise as to what its meaning 
 is, and, if there were any cloubts as to its meaning 
 there were none in my own mind — those doubt- 
 wouhl be reiiiovcil by the lui:iil speech of my lion, 
 friend, Tliat speecili is of record in J/(Uis(nit ami 
 will throw a clear light on the objects and the 
 aims of my hon. friend (Mr. lilake) in introducing 
 the resolution. 
 
 Amendment of Mr. Blake agreed to. 
 
 OTTAWA :— Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
House of Commons Debntcs 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 jllcnt Majesty. 
 
 SPEECH OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON TIIK 
 
 ADJOURNMENT & TARIFF DEBATE. 
 
 TUKSDAY, I.sr AI'I{[L, 1890. 
 
 Mr. HT.AKK. .Xff.T tlu' Kii.hMiiciit of tliolioii. 
 iiiciiilicf foiS(i\itli Oxfdid (Si I- Kiel mill Ciiit « li^lit ), 
 lliiil lie ilo(^s not tliiiik (lie |irin('i|ial ililniti' ciiii 
 i'l<).sii until 'riiuiMiliiy, I tiiink tliiM|uistion i.s scttlccl. 
 I ii','ri'(' wilii tlio I'MiMt Miiiisti'i- lliat tlw prcsiMit 
 iK'liiiti- slioiild he ilisposi'd of licfoic till' ailjourn- 
 ini'iit, anil a^4 the lioii. nicinlici' for South ( )\foi'il 
 iSii' Hichaiii Caitwiiiiht) is of opinion, fidin what 
 lie has li'aiiu'd, that thi' iK'hati^ canniit lie clo.stMl on 
 W'cilni'sclay, I do not .sen how an adjonnnnt'nt can 
 take place nntirrimrsdaj'. Kven if it wel(^ possihle, 
 I WDidil, as a private niendier, very stron;,'ly ohject 
 to the course which the First Minister su;^gests, 
 namely, that we shoidd so expedite inattei's as to 
 pa.vs the whole tarillof this country thidiii^h all the 
 |)relinMiiarv stages, introduce the I'.ill, pass it, ^dve 
 t]w SL'coiiil reading and get it into coiiniiittee. 
 These various stages are fora ))llipos(^ ; tliey are for 
 the |»ur|iose of avoiding too rapid action, for tlie|)ur- 
 )(ose of giving lime for consideration, and for the 
 purpose of giving an opportunity for riipresenta- 
 tioiis being made from varioii.s per.sons all over 
 this liroad country with reference to the proposed 
 changes, in ordci- that no mistakes may he made. 
 What the hoii. gentleman jiroposes is that we 
 shall proceed, first of all, ami forthwith, to almost 
 the lust .stage. Now, Sir, the regulations of the 
 House give us a Conmnttee of the Whole upon 
 these resolutions, whi<h, for the moment, we 
 waive in order toati'ord the lion, gentleman the con- 
 venience of putting them in force, provisionally, at 
 the Customs houses at once. That opportunity 
 we should have at this stage, of a full and free 
 discussion, and on tin; concurrence and on the 
 stages of the Hill we shall have opportunities for 
 presenting our views formally liy motion. It is 
 likely, and I lio])e it will he the case, that there 
 will lie upon the l>ill it.self very little discussion, 
 hut "there may lie discussion, and the o|iportunity 
 should he ati'orded for it. (A'ftain ci;iisiderations 
 
 ' niiiy lie lirouglit to onr attention liefore the later 
 stage, and in the inteival, « liiih may make it very 
 important that \\v should liiing them forward. It 
 is to lie reniemliered that e\ en the (iovernmeiit 
 itself, when it frames thesi tariff changes, lutH 
 under very consideralile dilllculty. It is utterly 
 impossilile for the (Iovernmeiit to ohtaiii at first 
 that thorough and full advice on these suhjei'ts 
 which it is important that it should olitain. It 
 cannot iiulicate its intentions on these matters 
 lieforehand, without the grossest frauils lieing 
 perpetialed at the Customs houses, or without its 
 intentions lieing inad(' iisedf for piivate purposes. 
 'I'Kelefore, those who are framing the tarifl'ti ipiire 
 11 certain interval aftei' their proposition i.s 
 idaliorateil, just as much as the Ffouse and the 
 iM)untiy iloes, to consider the various lieariiigs of 
 this |)idposition. I feel now, as I have always 
 felt that it would he a nioiistrous thing to impute 
 serious iiica]iacity or neglect to a l''inanee .Miiiistei, 
 who, liriiigingdown propositions for a change under 
 tlii'se ditliculties, should .say frank'y at ii suliseipient 
 date dillcrent views were presented to me aftei I 
 liidUght down those resolutions which do modify my 
 opinion upon them. .My view is, that the dillicul- 
 ties of the ca.se necessarily reipiiie that that degree 
 of elasticity should lie ri'adily accordiMl, withiait 
 ciiiimunt or oh.servation, to the l''iiiance Minister, 
 so that 111!, like the rest of us, may have an oppor- 
 tunity, in a country which stretches .'{,(M)() miles 
 across, to get at pulilic opinion u|)on this sulijcct. 
 Therefore, without the slightest (lesire to jiroliact 
 the Session, I must ]iiotest against what. I think, 
 are the evil and dangerous consei|neiices of hurry- 
 ing through all the preliminary stages, and at a 
 very early date getting toward.s the final stages, 
 in a matter w liicfi it really does reipiirt' time and 
 consideration and general fiiforniation to properly 
 mature. 
 
 Ottawa;- -Printed by Brown Chambeiu.in, Printer to the Queen's Most E.xcellent Maje.'ity. 
 
Irat 
 
ou$e of Commons Bebates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 ;PEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 OJf 
 
 HE BALLOT COMMITTEE, &c. 
 
 THURSDAY, 20th MARCH, 1890. 
 
 Mr. IJLAKK. I confcHs I eiitirfly .sliarod the 
 
 ^icw of my Iidii. fiieiid liesidt; mo (Nlr. Liiiirier), 
 
 ^lieii I Hiiw the uompoHitioii of thiu Committee tiH 
 
 [H'opo.sed. It in all very well to Hivy that weureall 
 
 ^<|ually iiitereHted,aiid all want to .see fair ])lay ; hut 
 
 #ne thiiigonealwayMhaHtoooiiHiderahout a machine 
 
 the cmaraeter of the man wiio works it ; and 
 
 chen you find that the (Jovernment of the country 
 
 Vim taken into its hand.s the a])]>ointment of the 
 
 Bturning otiicers, who in turn appoint the deputy 
 
 leturning oDicerH, the poll clerks, and all the other 
 
 Itficers who are to have the control and tlie 
 
 landliiiji; of an election, then it is e.vtrcnely im- 
 
 bortant tliat the machinery placed in their hands 
 
 jliould not i)e so pliahle, or so excessively compli- 
 
 ited, that it may give facilities for fraud still 
 
 reater than those which pertain to the ])rcsent 
 
 ysteni. I do not now recr>llectall tlie defects that 
 
 k'ere pointed out to me after the holdinj,' of the 
 
 rst election under the present system, l>ut one I 
 
 enieml)er was, that the hallot ])apers were of i.uch 
 
 thin and llimsy texture that it was imposslMe to 
 
 yiark tlieui with the implements proviih 1 foi- that 
 
 ■^ur])ose witliont rendering it possilile in tlie great 
 
 [lajority of cases — and we know that in tlie great 
 
 Inajority of cases a toleralily heavy lian<l is used — 
 
 io perceive fToni the outsiile of the iiallot paper, 
 
 Vfter it had heen foldiMl, the way in whiclitlie vote 
 
 ^'as marked. I agree with the view that, so 
 
 long as you maintain the liallr)t system, it is ; 
 
 |)f the last conse(Hience, not merely that you 
 
 .Jliould have security for secrecy, Imt that the 
 
 aiass of the voters shoidd be jiersuailed that ! 
 
 llie ballot u.sed is secret ; because notliing is more 
 
 Common than to inform the voter tluit his vote can 
 
 pe found out, and that he nnist vote thus, and so, 
 
 kt the peril of liis vote becoming known, notwitli- 
 
 |taniling the ballot. So I am infoiined. Tlierefore 
 
 agree that an arrangement under which, first of 
 
 i\\, actual secrecy should lie secured, and, secondly, 
 
 indcr wliicli that secrecy shoidd lie guaranteed, un- 
 
 Serstandably by the mass of the voters and recog- 
 
 idandappreciatcil by tliem, would be veryini])or- 
 
 iint. Hut, as I have said, we nuLst take very great 
 
 M'e that this niachiuery is not of such a pliable char- 
 
 acter as to bo in danger r)f being put to the uses to 
 which I have referred. The lion, gentleman ia 
 probably aware that, a few days ago, an investiga- 
 tion was held in the State of New York with refer- 
 ence to the election of a senator by a maehint! method 
 which was supposed to work welt, Imt which lent 
 itself to most atrocious and widesjiread frauds. 
 Therefoie, it occurred to me that the suggestion 
 made by the lion, gt^ntleman, that this was a mat- 
 ter jteculiar to tlie House itself, in which the 
 (iovernnient did not wish to interfere — a suggestion 
 which he sought to enforce by a committee coni- 
 ]io8ed of eijjdit ministerial members and two Oppo- 
 sition tneniliers, with reference to machinery which, 
 was to beojierated entirely by the lion, gentleman's 
 friends -was a little " too thin." There was not a 
 great ileal of secrecy about that, whatever there 
 might be in the new ballot. I am glad to know, 
 therefoj'e, that the lion, gentleman and his leader 
 feel that the Committee cannot assume quite that 
 comph'\ion, and that a larger representation is due 
 to tills side of the House, considering that the 
 character of the operators gives us of the Ojiposition 
 the greatest interest in the character of the ma- 
 chinery to be adopted. 
 
 THE lUNKIXO BILL. 
 
 Mr. HL.-VKK. I would sttggost to the lion, 
 gentleman that it would be convenient if he wouhl 
 pi-ovide us with a table, in plain and Him|)le form, 
 showing the details of the calculations of which 
 he gave — what was veiy satisfactory in one way 
 — the geneial result, but the details of which he 
 did not give. I refer to the relation of the gross 
 assets to the gross liabilities of the banks. It is 
 (juite clear that that teaches us nothing. You 
 might as well say that you could decide as to 
 the solvency of an individual by putting down on 
 one side the assets and on the other the liabilities 
 of all the members of his community, and striking 
 a general balance. You would find that, although 
 there might in the whole be a considerable margin 
 of assets over liabilities, yet if you looked into the 
 details there would be deficits in the case of some 
 
I'l 
 
 iind large amounts to the creflit of others. For 
 my (iwii ])ait, I iUii iinuli more (lis|M)sc'il to jiliico 
 reliiince on that to wliicli the hrm. ji;t;iitK'maii 
 aUuili!(l in this icgiuil, as the iietuiil expeiienee of 
 hiuik.s which have gone under, and whicli, .s|)eak- 
 ing generally, I thinii, i|iiue jiistitied his ohser- 
 vation.'i. I do not propose to say a word witli 
 reference to the <leta'ls of tile phiii for tiie I'e- 
 demjition of tlie notes, for tlie hon. gentleman has 
 not entered into details, ami there are some cpies- 
 tions of detail which are rathei- important, hut 
 .which, in the ahsence of details, it would he en- 
 tirely premature to discuss. Xor do I intend to 
 eiiti'i' into the question of tlie worl'.ing of the guaran- 
 tee system, hecause that also reiiiiires very careful 
 considei'ation as to details, and as to tlie exact 
 liability which it would impose on the mass of 
 the hanks and as to the arrangement in ease of a 
 call. As t ) the audit system, I must say that I 
 eo\icui' in every word the hon. nienilier for .South 
 Oxford has utteied. I agree that if our present 
 system of amlitiiig is in any resjiect defective in 
 theory, if it does not provide an adequate legisla- 
 tive rec ignition of the <luty of the sliareholdcrs or 
 tlie authorities to secure a proper audit, we ought 
 to make such a legislative recognition. Hut with 
 reference to most institutions whicli are engaged in 
 enornioustransactions in the lending of money, es])e- 
 cially to those lending money on jiersonal security, 
 I hoM thatit isali.solutely inipossihie for any auditor 
 to make an aiulit which will indicate the real jiosi 
 tion of the hank. We know in ourowii ex|)erience 
 that it is (juite im]iossihle. We in tins Kouse have 
 had the most signal instances lirouglit hefore us of 
 hanks which <lisplayed the most llonrishiiig state- 
 ments, duly aiulited, hefore tlieirshareliolilers, and 
 in a very few weeks, or even d.iys, it was found - 
 without imputation of fraud on anyone -that those 
 accounts were really nominal, and that enormous 
 sums which were returned as good, turned out in 
 the end to he of the most donhlfnl character. It is 
 really of the greatest conse(ineiice, therefore, that 
 we should not hold out to the ])ulilic that we are 
 giving them a security wliich we cannot give. I 
 feel tiie iiiqiortauce of a proper audit, and I think 
 that, if liy any means we couhl, we should estah- 
 lisli to some extent the independence of the auditor ; 
 and I will even go so far a.s to say that it wonhl he 
 worthy of the consideration of the House whether 
 we c(mld not provide some peculiar mark of our 
 sense of the rcs|)oiisiliility which any man assumes 
 who undertakes the iluty of auditing, as to the 
 thorcnighness and accuracy of the audit, hy attach- 
 ing to him a certain responsihility, which would of 
 course involve a satisfactory reninneration. IJut, 
 .so long as the hoard of directors have tlit! c<iiiti- 
 <lence of the sharehohlers, although the sliaiehold- 
 ers may, in name, appoint the auditor, aftei' all « e 
 know that it is the hoard of directors who really 
 name him, and, so long as that is the case, the 
 auditors are very iiiuch exposed to the danger of 
 doing their work iierfnnctorily, ami of liciug 
 guided, in matters which at all savor of (iiieslions 
 of opinion, hy the views of the managei- of the 
 iustilntion ami those who suriound him. I was 
 <lisap|)ointed, I confess, to hear the hon. gentle- 
 man's statement with refei'ence to the change 
 he [irojioscd to make as to the creation of smaller 
 hanks. As to the amount of capital to he jiaid 
 in, if lie is only going to ascertain, hy the actual 
 payment of cash that cash has hcen jirovided 
 
 for the moment or for a brief space, to the 
 amount of .s-J.-)(»,(«M> instead of .S->(M»,(MM>, that 
 does not amount to very much, nor is it in the 
 matter of the actuality of the jjaymeiit extremely 
 satisfactory. Voii cannot provide that without 
 imposing a harrier, which, I do not suppose, yo\i 
 intenc! to impose. Von cannot provide it hy 
 retaining for any long time the !i<2.-)0,tMH), hecause 
 that is what the hank is huilt upon, and you must 
 hand it hack. Jt is eviilent, from our experience, 
 that the system which has gone on will not, hy 
 any such arrangement as that, he stcjpjied, though 
 to some extent its ojierations may he restrained - 
 the system, namely, of a hank, almost imniediately 
 after its forination, <liscountiiig the ))aper of its 
 shareholders for an amouut apjiroximating to the 
 amount of their suhseriptions, and thus making 
 the transaction a nominal one. Apart from this 
 ditticulty, which, I think, the hon. gentleman's 
 proposition may to some limited extent ])revent, 
 1 must say for myself that the exjierieiice of On- 
 tario, so far as I can gather, with reference to the 
 smaller hanks, has not heeii favorahle. I say so 
 the more oiienly hecause I very well rememhei 
 the discussion we had, a good many years ago, 
 when the late .Sir Francis Hiiicks was Finance 
 Minister, when we had hefore us that wholi' 
 ([Uestion, and when a consi<lerahle ell'ort was made 
 to keep U)) the minimum capital foi' the estahlish- 
 nient of hank.s. I was amongst those — in tlio.se 
 days 1 was nuuli younger than I am mnv — who 
 nioveil hy the un(|Uestioiiahle difhculties which the 
 smallei' centres of po|nilatiou then labored under, 
 streuuou.sly insisted upon a lower niiiiimuni. Those 
 diliiculties were due to a condition of tilings which 
 has, to a considerable extent, disa|i)ieared. That 
 ciaidition was this : The number of the banks was 
 much smaller, and the ca]iital of the banks was 
 also veiy much smaller than in these later days, 
 and the iii(lis|iosition of the banks to ))rovidc 
 branches in the country was very much greater 
 than it has since become ; and it was a fact that 
 very great difficulty was ijxperieiiced, arising, in 
 many instances, from the impossil)ility of obtain- 
 ing local banking facilities in a good many thriving 
 communities. It was thought necessary to give those 
 facilities; but I must say that the exjiciience of our 
 I'rovince has been that the smaller hanks ha\e not 
 bi^en oil the whole a success. They have been, 
 speaking geneially, though with some exceii- 
 tioiis, rathei' an element of danger, than other 
 wise, and it has been jiroved that the ])resent 
 plethora of banking capital, and the wides|)read 
 iianking facilities, make it exceedingly diliiiult tn 
 ' conduct a |)rotitable banking business with a 
 ; bank, weak in the sense of its ca])ital being small 
 Tlierefoie, we ought to consider carefully, thougii 
 \ not at all unfairly -I do not suggest any interfer 
 I ence witli any existing institutions in the light 
 ; of the expel ience of the ))ast fi^w years and of the 
 existing cniiditioiiof thingsasto t hi' amount of bank 
 ilig<'apital \\ hicli is available the question whethei 
 ' it may not really be in the intt:rest of the eiumtry. , 
 »lo (liscoura^e tlu^ establishment of hanks with ii 
 minimum of capital so low as that which at))reseiit 
 j obtains. In expressing that change of opinion, 1 
 think it ])idper to assume the penitential stool, in 
 [ vii^w of my former attitude ami of the position 1 
 now take on thistjuestion. 
 
 ;of lifi 
 will 
 
 Set' inv 
 Nc.i-tli 
 18*. 
 me. 
 ircim 
 "I (Iniw 
 ^ oaiiie 
 •« onli'i- 
 
 1 ['.■■' 
 ,.j lum ti 
 ■| <ln'w 
 t that 
 '^ iicithiii 
 
 dthisal 
 ■5 uiul til 
 
 % WIHllll 
 
 1. ''''"'^ 
 
 V lea\ c? 
 } whicl 
 % is a la 
 
 .■ has 
 
rief space, to the 
 of S2(M).(MM), tliiU 
 li, nor i« it in tlif 
 Kiyniunt cxtieni'^ly 
 ividu tliivt without 
 
 not snppo.sc, you 
 lot provide it \>y 
 e 82.")(),(MI(), lieeanw 
 pon, and yon must 
 )ni oui' I'xperieni'c, 
 )iie on will not, by 
 l>e .stopiio<l, tliougli 
 ay lie festrained - 
 iluiost immediately 
 ^ the ])a])er of its 
 proximatiny to tile 
 
 and tims makiiii,' 
 ;. Apart from tiiis 
 ' lion, gentleman's 
 I'd extent Jireveiit, 
 
 ex))erienee of On- 
 til lefei'eiiee to the 
 ivoialile. I say so 
 ry well leniemlier 
 
 1 many years ago, 
 neks was Finance 
 ro us that whole 
 l»le etlort was made 
 I for the establish- 
 ;st those — in those 
 m I am now — who 
 fticulties wliieii the 
 lien labored under. 
 :r minimum. Those 
 ion of tilings which 
 isa])])eaied. That 
 !r of the banks «as 
 
 of the banks was 
 
 the.se later days. 
 
 inks to ])rovide 
 
 ry much greater 
 
 it was a fact that 
 
 need, ai'ising, in 
 
 .ssibility of obtaiii- 
 
 lod many thriving 
 
 issary to give those 
 
 experience of our 
 
 r banks ha\e not 
 
 They have been, 
 
 itii some exeep- 
 
 iger. than other- 
 
 tliat the ]ires(nl 
 
 1 the widesjiread 
 
 liiigly dillicidt to 
 
 lusiness with i' 
 
 )ital being small 
 
 carefully, thougii 
 
 ;est any inteifer 
 
 ons in the light 
 
 years and of the 
 
 e amount of bank 
 
 i|Ucslion whether 
 
 St of the country. . 
 
 nf banks with a 
 
 wliich at pi'csciit 
 
 iiige of opinion, 1 
 
 liteiitial stool, in 
 
 f the position I 
 
 THE VALIQUETTE CASE. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. AN'itli reference to the other 
 ! return, regarding ^'alilplette, which the lion, gen- 
 itleman brought ilown, I wish to call his attention 
 i to a li^ttei' which, it seems to me, indicates that 
 (the return ought to be supplemented. ThefoUow- 
 j ing letter apjiears in the return from Antoine 
 [Valiquette to M. le Colonel Lamontagne : 
 
 " Alter having waited a lontr time, I see the necessity 
 'of liiiviuK rectinrsc tu VdU with referoiicc li> n |)(!nsioii 
 [ wliieli was trriiutcil nie liy tlio (Jovcrmnont en the (loeense 
 i <if my son, .'^I'l'Kc'ioit I'riiiiii Valiiiuettc, wlui dieil in tlio 
 f Ninth-Wcsl ill the scrviee ot his eoiintry, ini the 4th. Inly, 
 j.lSHa. In the niinilh nt'Miiy that pension was (iraiitinl to 
 ; nic. inula few iliiys hiter I reeeived ii (leiiariiiientiil letter 
 I from tlie olliee in Alontreiil, asking me to go there iinil 
 i draw the Slim ot','::iUl!..'Jt. The same day Coionel Hughes 
 i ennie at my place, saying that ho had been working in 
 .-iler to ])rc)cure a pension for encli ohilil, and iiskeil ino 
 I !'(,;• a iiower of attorney (which I gave him), autliorising 
 
 ■ him to aet in my name. Under tliis power ol'alloriiey ho 
 
 ■ drew my money, and remitted to me one-halt of the sum, 
 ' that is .S.'iUO. and some months afterwards, .Sl.'iO, iiiul 
 
 • notliing more iifterwarils. I do not know wlien the next. 
 : payment will eonie. Will yiai he good enough to ooiiclndo 
 I this atVair, and tell nie when the next payment will come, 
 i and the halance of ihe first payment. In doing .'O you 
 [ would oblige a poor, sick old man wlio seeks protection." 
 
 I That letter, put upon the Table of the House, 
 i leaves Colonel Hughes in a very jiainftil position 
 ' wdiicli has been altogethei- unexphuned, and there 
 is a later lettei- in a similar .strain. I suppose there 
 ; has been an eiiijuiry. 
 
 ; ,Sir ADOLPHE CARON. I have ordered an 
 ; entjuiry. 
 
 > Mr. liLAKE. It a])])eAr3, sc r, that Colonel 
 
 ■ Hughes had a ])ower of attorney, . at he received 
 f this amount and remitted t\w. half of it, and held 
 ^ the remainder for some time, how hmg we know 
 ■'not. Will the lion, gentleman bring down a stale- 
 jnient showing the regulations as to olHcers of the 
 Mioveriimeiit being allowed to act as attorneys. My 
 ; impression is that there is a general regulation for- 
 "biihling gentlemen in the public service to act as 
 iiittorneys for iniblie creditors. It is a wise regula- 
 . tiini, as this case proves, if the statements made are 
 icorrect. 
 
 I SUIM'LV -TRENT VALLEY CANAL. 
 
 I Mr. I5L.VKI';. I really think it is about time that 
 |tliis ipiestion of the canal should be settled. Cer- 
 (tainly, as. long ago as before the idcction of ISW, 
 fthe lion. First Nlinister did make a piomise in the 
 itown of Peterborough that the canal should be built, 
 [.('ertainly, for years after that time the Minister of 
 Hallways and Canals reiterated that iiroiiiise, and 
 
 time after time it was indicateil that rejKirts were 
 being obtained as to what the cost would be ; and, 
 if I remember aright, Mr. Kubidge was named as 
 the officer from whom those rejiorts wereexpected. 
 Ultimately, an intimation was given, in the Railway 
 Committee loom, or sonii where else, to some large 
 deputation which called on the (iovernment to re- 
 deem its pledges- which hail lieen very extensively 
 used in a large number of the ridings bordeiing on 
 the route f)f the projected canal -that the cost of the 
 work was roughly estimated, I think, at the sum 
 of .S!(,(MH),(HK). Another election came on, when 1 
 have no doubt further ])ressure was ])ut upon the 
 (iovernment, and after the election of 1HS7, it 
 seems that for the tirst time the (iovernment took 
 the step of a])])ointing a einnmission. Their doing 
 so at that time was, of course, an indication that 
 they had neglected their duty U)) to that time. If 
 they were going to make the building of the canal 
 contingent on the coniinission giving a satisfac- 
 tory statement of its cost, there should have been 
 no siudi ])ledge as was given in ISH'2, and kept 
 dangling before the eyes of the ptuiple for years 
 afterwards. 'I'liis eommi.ssion has, I think, for 
 nearly three yeais, had the matter in hand, and the 
 lion, gentleman does not yet give an intimation 
 when Uieir re))ort is expecleil. He says that some- 
 body was ill and went to Euro|)e, but that there is 
 no hurry, becaii.se the work is going on all the time. 
 Hut how do we know that it is work on the canal ? 
 To do wmk <if this kind jiiecemeal, if it is to be 
 part of the great communication between the upper 
 and the lowei lakes, may be to do it in an extremely 
 wasteful May. ft may be that the work being done 
 is adeijuate for the purpose of local coimiiunication, 
 and yet it may be inadeijuate for the piirpo.se of the 
 large work if it ever comes to be accomjdislied. 
 What I do say is that what was in a sense formally 
 initiated as a pledged (iovernment undertaking, as 
 early as before the elections of lSSl2. ought not to 
 be in the condition it is in to-day, nearly eight years 
 later, namely, that fortiveor sixyearsa steji which 
 the (iovernment then ileclared to be essential, the 
 formation of a commission, is delayed, and then the 
 re|)ort of that commission is postponed for three or 
 four years, and we do not know when it is to be 
 obtained. 1 think the lion, gentleman ought to .see 
 this thingcxpeditcd ; the rejiort should be obtained 
 early and a decision reached ; ami the people who 
 are interested in this |)roject, and who ha\e been 
 waiting for it and hanging on the lion, gentleman's 
 words .so many years, should be relieved in oneway 
 or another, by a determination either to )uoceed 
 with the work or to aliandon it. 
 
 I OT'i'AWA :— Printed by BitowN Cii.wnir.iti.i.v, Printer to the (Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
f 
 
 '""*""Tl^i 
 
fiouse ot Commons Bebat^s 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 THE CENSXJ©. 
 
 WEDNESDAY, 2()Tii MARCH, 1890. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Quite a miinbi'r of coiiiiuuiiica- 
 tionswerc sent mo, aftci' tliolast ccnsn.;, iiitiiiiiUiii;,' 
 that if siicli an imdcrMtanilini,' as tlic lion, gcntlit- 
 man lias just told ii.s existed at (lie liead ollice, 
 it did not reach the enumerator.s in many (jiiai- 
 ters. I am very glad to hear what the lion, 
 gentleman has said, as he has taken a reasonahle 
 view of the matter ; Init the information 1 reeeiveil 
 from many parts of the country is that people who 
 had heon more than twenty years away, and ^^ere 
 permanently away, were put on the enumer- 
 ator's list. As the luni. memher for Queen's County 
 has said, if a father were asked whether he 
 expected his boy, who had lieen away some lifteen 
 or twenty years, never to come back, of course 
 the father, in the hope of having his son ])ay him 
 a visit, would say that certainly he exjiected him 
 back. The son's name would be put down. That 
 is the report I have received from many paits, and 
 my lion, friend from (,Jueliec (Mr. Langelier) eon- 
 Hrms it with regard to that l'ro\ ince. Under these 
 eircnmstance.s it wcmld be very important for the 
 hon. gentleman to prescrilie a niaxiimun of absence, 
 not witliin which everybody shouM bi; counted- - 
 ))ecause a man who left yesterday may have gone 
 permanently, and others may leave with the inten- 
 tion of remaining several months and coming back 
 — but after which no man should lie counted. It is 
 impossible, from the infoiination I have received, 
 to come to any other conclusion than that, by reason 
 of this system, a laxity, or discretion, was exer- 
 cised which was grossly luisleadiiig. Voii can jiut 
 no greater restraint u[)on the exubeianl jiatriot 
 ism of some enumeratois, who may be disposed-to 
 count a great many more than he ought as likely to 
 come back, than to adopt a check system. J recom- 
 inende 1 such a system on tlii' occasion of the last cen- 
 sus, and I reiterate, witli added emphasis, from pa.st 
 experience, the necessily of liaving the enumerator 
 report every absentee he enters on his list. The 
 mere statement of the total number of absent 
 persons who are counted in the population of any 
 pai'tieuhir district would be a great, check. It 
 would enable us to know to what extent the popu- 
 lation of the country is supjiosed to be— not merely 
 
 a transitoi'y jiojiulation, but a jiopiilation living 
 away from its fixed abode. This would involve no 
 extra trouble, and would not require even another 
 column Voii need not mark tho.se who are pre- 
 sent at the time ; but if you make some particular 
 mark against tho.se who are absent, and give us 
 the figures in each district, that will be a security 
 against laxity and against intentional over-stating, 
 and will of itself form an iinportairt element in the 
 formation of a conclusion as to how far the census 
 is really correct. 
 
 Mr. IJLAKlv The hon. member for Grey speaks, 
 and I can understand his speaking, of a growing 
 desire on the [lart of Canadians to be returned as 
 belonging to the Canadian nationality, but I was 
 surpriseil to hear the member for Renfrew (Mr. 
 White) .second the observation, that we should find 
 this evidence in the census, becau.se he with his 
 sentiments must have been gratified to feel that we 
 can find tli<^ true elements of Canadian nationality 
 and unity in another pari of the Statute-book, that 
 is, in the Tiuili' Act. 'i'liere it is that, according to 
 his view, we find our common bond, or rather our 
 most uiieomiuon bonds. That is our national unity, 
 and it is in that Act that we find the signs and 
 symbols of our being, at the same time, one and 
 a self-separated and a self-contained people. 
 
 Mr. BL.\1\.K. The hon. Minister has stated 
 that no instructions have as yet been issued with 
 res)iect to the census. 1 have oliserved in the 
 public journals a statement that sometime ago a 
 circular was is-iued to medical men throughout the 
 Dominion with respeit to the approaching census, 
 asking tlu'iii to obtain and transmit to the Depart- 
 ment certain information in regard to sanitary 
 inatteis, hygiene, mortality, and .so forth. Is that 
 soV If it is so, will the hon. gentleman bring 
 down the jiaiiers '! 
 
 Ml. CAliLlXC. I shall be ghid U, 'Ming down 
 the infoiination. The circular was sent out by 
 Mr. Johnson, st{itistician of the Dejiartinent, in 
 order to ascertain more correctly the returns as to 
 the number of deaths and the causes of death. 
 
2 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Having to do with the census ? 
 
 Mr. CARLINfi. I suppose it is an enciuiry 
 having relation to tlio iiensus. No steps liaveoeen 
 taken in regard to the census ; but Mr. Juiinson, 
 statistician, has sent a circuhir to medical men, ask- 
 ing tlieni to furnisli him with such information as 
 they possess with res])ect to deaths and causes of 
 death. 
 
 Mr. HL.VKK. I nnist say this : The census is 
 a solemn operation which ought to he entered upon 
 and executed as a whole, and the informaticm 
 sought, and encjuiries made, with respect to the 
 census, ought to he authorised and sanctioned 
 with that ohject and aim. The lion, gentleman 
 says that certain information has been asked by 
 the statistician of the Department, and he sup])oses 
 it will have some relation to the census. What- 
 ever is going to be done to form a part of that 
 compilatiim, which is to form our decennial census, 
 ought to be done under Order in Council or de- 
 partmental regulation, and with direct reference 
 to the census, and under all the sanction and 
 
 arrangement necessary for the procuring of that 
 especially accurate information which belongs to 
 such a national transaction. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. There may and will be great 
 ditticulty in getting the correct amount of the 
 iiuantity ot butter and cheese luanhfactured in tlie 
 different farm houses, but certiiinly it would be 
 still more difticult to do what thAdion. Minister has 
 as just suggested, that is, to give^the total foi- the 
 parish or county, without getting the returns from 
 the houses. You must get the details, in order 
 that you may get the totals. My own impression 
 is, that if it is proposed to obtain an account of the 
 strictly domestic manufacture, it will be found to 
 be very vague and far from approximate. I 
 would suggest, while uuu dissenting from tho 
 notion that this should be attempted, that there 
 shoidd be made a separate account as to the condi- 
 tion of the creameries or factories, for by getting 
 these returns, we will know exactly what is pro- 
 tluced. The rest will be to a large extent guess- 
 work. 
 
 OTTAWA : — Printed by Bkown Ciiamukulin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
ocuring of that 
 lich belongs to 
 
 1 will be great 
 amount of the 
 [ifactured in tlie 
 ily it would be 
 on. Minister has 
 the total for the 
 the returns from 
 Ictails, in order 
 
 own impression 
 m aecount t)f the 
 cill be found to 
 ipproximate. I 
 iting from the 
 ited, that there 
 
 as to the condi- 
 , for by getting 
 ly what is pro- 
 ;e extent guess- 
 
 ent Majesty. 
 
 $iou$t ol Commons Btbates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION— SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 PEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON THE 
 
 B^NKINGJ^ BILL. 
 
 THUESDAY, 1st MAY, 1890. 
 
 SECURITY ON CHATTELS. 
 On section fi(i, 
 
 Mr. BL.-VKE. It does not appear to nie that this 
 
 Js an advantageous addition. I do not think 
 
 khero is any use of inserting words wiiich can 
 
 kery easily be evaded, and the practical effect 
 
 W whicli will be to introduce a system of evasion. 
 
 Jnder the present law, althougli a bank is not 
 
 Intitled to advance on the security of its stock, if it 
 
 loes advance upon othersecurity, it obtains a certain 
 
 ;atutoiy lien— at any rate, it has the right to say 
 
 Biat the stock shall not be parted with until the debt 
 
 I (laid. The proposal now is to say that tiiat right 
 
 luill not accrue until the debt has become due. 
 
 hie practical result of that will be jast this, that 
 
 rou « ill have a fictitious system of loaning ; you 
 
 Iiave a due bill or a sight draft or a demand 
 
 lote representing the loan, and a demand made at 
 
 nice, anil a debt becoming due at once, Vmt left 
 
 /ing until the time comes when it is understood 
 
 (icitly tliat the borrower shall settle it. The clause 
 
 fin be overcome by tiiat easy and simple process, 
 
 that all you are doing is to promote a fictitious 
 
 Et of transactions. 
 
 On section 74, 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. That was one of the questions, 
 there was also a (question raised as to whether it 
 yas a good warehouse receipt, because it was given 
 the owner himself. 
 
 [sir JOHN THOMPSON. The hon. gentleman 
 Md that his remarks wouhl apply to all the ware- 
 buse receipt clauses. In view of the decision in 
 |le Smith case, this clause might stand. 
 
 I Mr. BLAKE. I do not suppose that the hon. 
 fcntleman proposes that we should even formally 
 |ss the very important clauses which add to the 
 fen power of banks. I think we had better let 
 |em stand instead of passing them and coming 
 lidck to them again. 
 
 Sir JOHN THOMPSON. I was referring to the 
 r»ni('st of the member for Quebec Centre (Mr. 
 Laiigclier), to allow that clause to stand. 
 
 I think that clause demand-s 
 
 On section 75, 
 ]Mr. BLAKE. 
 
 some exposition. 
 
 Mr. BLAKH I would like to know from the 
 hon. Minister of Justice precisely in what regard 
 he considers that this clause restricts tlie powers 
 which are found to exist under the present law, 
 
 and whether there is any particular, and if so, 
 what, in which lie thinks the clause extends the 
 powers that exist under the j)resent law? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Will the hon. gentleman explain 
 this clause liy giving us a few examples of wliat he 
 means by the "wholesale producer" as distinct 
 from the " wholesale manufacturer?" 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The section reads : " a wholesale 
 manufacturer or producer of any goods, wares and 
 merchandise." On turning back to the interpre- 
 tation clause, I find that : 
 
 "The expression gcinds, wares and racrchandise, in- 
 cludes, in addition toll things usually understood there- 
 by, timber, deals, board -..-itays.sawlogs, and other lumber, 
 petroleum, crude oil, and all ngriculturul produce and 
 other articles of commerce. " 
 
 We iiave thus the wholesale manufacturer or 
 jiroducer of agricultui.ii products, as well as of 
 other things ; and, therefore, the section seems to 
 me to include the whole farming community, 
 unless the term " wholesale " is to except the whole 
 farming community ; or if it is partly to exceptand 
 partly to include, I would like the line of demarca- 
 tion drawn. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The object I had in view in ask- 
 ing my ([uestion was to obtain the opinion of the 
 Administration as to the meaning of the clause, as it 
 now stands. I am strongly impresseil with the 
 view that the clause, in its present shape, accom- 
 plishes the object desired by the hon. member for 
 Frontenac. Whether it be laudable or advantage- 
 ous to the fanning community and the country, or 
 not, may be more disputable, but it accomplishes 
 the object. I am not versed in these things, but I 
 suppose that the wholesale manufacturer is the per- 
 son who manufactures for sale in bulk to those who 
 sell in retail to others. He is the person whose 
 
 i 
 
1 1 it 
 
 goods reach tliu ultimate consntiier, not directly but 
 through an uiterniediary distributor. That I under- 
 stand to be tiie wholesale manufacturer. To the 
 wholesale producer the same interpretation will 
 apply. He is the man who produces articles which 
 he (loes not, as a rule, proceed himself to retail 
 directly to the ultimate consumers, but wliich, in 
 whole or part, lie disposes of in bulk to some inter- 
 mediary, who is the vehicle of transmission to the 
 ultimate consumer. Evei'y farmer, or almost every 
 farmer in tlie country, is a wholesale producer under 
 that definition. His cattle and grain may go to 
 P'ngland, or the States, or to the towns of Canada ; 
 his products may go through half a dozen hands in 
 bulk before they reach tlie man who eats tliem. 
 Therefore it is, 1 ask what was intendeil by tliis 
 clause ? Wliat is the lino of demarcation ? If in 
 the term "wholesale producer'' you include the 
 producer of agricidtural products, what farmer does 
 the clause include, and wliat farmer does it ex- 
 clude ? It nuiy exclude the small market gardener, 
 who, having "three acres and a cow," proceeds 
 daily through the .streets of the city near where he 
 lives, and peddles his goods fi-om door to <loor, and 
 so, hiui.self producing, reaches himself with iiisjjro- 
 duce the ultimate cu.stomer ; but, even as to liim, 
 if he goes into a market town and sells those very 
 articles to a huckster, or another vendor, who is the 
 intermediary between the i)ro<Ui';er and tiie con- 
 sumer, I do not know on what princi])le you can 
 call even a small market gardener other thun a 
 wholesale producei'. So it seems to me tluit pi'ac- 
 tically, altliougb with, perhaps, great profit to the 
 legal fraternity a.s to determining the exact line of 
 demarcation, and with the pros|)ect of numy inter- 
 esting law-suits before tlie (jucstion sliall lie detei'- 
 mined ilefinitely and sub.stantially, the whole farm- 
 ing community are to be the reci])ients of those 
 countless blessings w ncli the lion, niendier for 
 Frontenac (Mr. Kirkpatrick) would ask this House 
 to shower on their heads. At present we should 
 first know what it is proposed to us to ilo, and then 
 we can discuss the ([uestion on its merits. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. Once again, I repeat tlie sugges- 
 tion that our discussion would be confined in much 
 more jjracticable limits if we could learn first 
 whether it is the intention of tiie Administration 
 to propose to us by the clause, that whicli the lion, 
 member (ov Montreal (Sii' Donalil .Smith) has just 
 advocated, and wliicli the lion, memlua' for Fronte- 
 nac (Mr. Kirk])atrick) and the lion, member for 
 (irey (Mr. SpiDule) think so desirable, namely, 
 that the farmer sluuild be in a position in which he 
 can, by a security note of this description, unregis- 
 tered, grant to a bank security for advances upon 
 articles which he produces. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I would ask the lion, gentleman 
 whether in view of tlie suggestions I have ma<le that 
 the interpretation clause exjiressly includes agricul- 
 tural products, and that you thus find the ])lirase 
 to be " wholesale producer of agricultural pro- 
 ducts " — whether he does not think that almost all 
 persons who come under the denomination of far- 
 mers are embraced within this jirovision at this 
 moment ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. I think the decision which is re- 
 ferred to is based, as far as that subject is expressly 
 dealt with, upon the article of jurisdiction to which 
 the lion, gentleman has alluded, namely, b.nking ; 
 
 and it is founded upon an expression used in the 
 case of Cushing r.i. Dupuy, which is there cited, and 
 to which we had reference the other evening. 1 
 think that some force is certainly due to the consi- 
 deration which the Minister of Justice has addres- 
 sed to us, namely, that for a great many years, 
 ever since Confederation, more or less, we have 
 assumed this |>ower, and the assumption has 
 been accepted to a very large extent in the 
 practical execution of the business of the country, 
 by the banks and by the public at large. But 
 when we are called upon to (leal with enlargements 
 of the propositicHi, when we are called upcm to go 
 a great deal further, as it is now claime<l we have 
 been, perhaps, unconsci(msly called upon to go, and 
 as we are in fact clearly, by the proposition now 
 before y(m, callecl upon ccnisciously to go, it is 
 perliaps well to direct attentitm to the alarm- 
 ing coiLseiiuences to which, stretched to the extent 
 to whicli they are proposed to be stretcheil, that 
 proposition extends ; because, you will .see that if 
 it is to apply to the case of the farmer, it may In 
 very ju'oper and eijually within our iiowei' tn 
 apply it, so far as banking jnirjxises are concerned, 
 to the case of every per.son who owns any tangible 
 thing whatever. And it is being propo.se<l to In- 
 extended, and it is, in the juilgment of the Miuistii 
 of .Justice and of my own, whatever the lattei' 
 may lie worth, by this chiuse now extended to 
 certainly very much the largest single class, and 
 to a class probably e(]Ual to one-half of the whole 
 of the conmiunity at this moment. And. therefore, 
 you have it, I do not mean to say, with respect to 
 all the goods lielonging to that class, but witli re 
 spect to the goods they produce, that the general 
 princi])les of law in all the Provinces, .so fur as 
 I know, princi])les founded upon a fundamental 
 proposition as to public convenience, in which the 
 masses of the comiiiunity are interested, with re 
 spoot to the degree of credit which is attached tn 
 the visible pos.session of personal ])ro])erties and tn 
 the securities which are retjuited to avoid mistaken 
 credit being extended, are to be wholly departed 
 from. I agree in tlie general principle which tlu 
 lion. Minister of .lu.stice has stated, in defininn 
 what was understood to be the intention of this 
 clause. I can (juite well understand that undvr 
 the general interpretation of the term there may 
 be very great difficulties, twofold in their cliarae 
 ter, in cariyingout in practice, as ajiplied toJiiaiui- 
 factures, the general principle of non-recognition 
 of a claim on or of conditional owiiership in pro))- 
 erty not in the visible possession of the claimant. 
 The first ilifiiculty is the constant mutatioii of tlie 
 object, the log being transferred into lumber, the 
 fleece being turned into cloth ; and so forth ; and 
 lumber, cloth and so forth being constantly sold tn 
 tile public, and replaced by tlie manufacturer ; 
 and the .second ditticulty is the ditKculty of credit 
 to which the hon. gentleman adverted. I can 
 well understand and appreciate as sound the 
 proposition that, so long as you are able liy your 
 definition to point the attenticm of the general 
 public to this fact, that the law declares that in the 
 ca.se of certain per.sons the visible owuerslii])of the 
 stock in trade does not give you the slightest 
 security that he really owns that stock ; that it 
 may be all the jiroperty of a bank, and may bi 
 mortgaged for more than it is worth ; and thai 
 you, therefore, are not entitled to give him 
 credit on his visible possession of it ; you may 
 
B 
 
 !88ioii used in thu 
 is tliere cited, nnd 
 ither evening. 1 
 due to the consi- 
 iistice Iui8 iiddreti' 
 rent many yeara. 
 or less, we liave 
 assumption lias 
 e extent in tlie 
 iS of the country, 
 ic at large. But 
 vitli enlargement.s 
 ;alled u|)on to go 
 ' clainied we havo 
 sil upon to go, and 
 proposition now 
 ously to go, it is 
 m to the alarm- 
 ;hed to the extent 
 e stretched, that 
 m will see tluit if 
 farmer, it may l>r 
 in our power to 
 ses are concerned, 
 )wns any tangililc 
 ig proposed to he 
 untoi the Minister 
 atever the latter 
 now extended to 
 single class, an<l 
 half of the whole 
 . And. theiefore, 
 y, with respect to 
 jlass, hut witli re- 
 ', that tile general 
 ovinces, so far as 
 in a fundamental 
 ■nee, in which tiic 
 iterested, with re- 
 cli is attached to 
 ])ro])erties and to 
 to avoid mistaken 
 wholly departed 
 inciple which tiif 
 ited, in detininy 
 intention of this 
 stand that undvi 
 term there may 
 in their charai- 
 iipi)lied toJiianu- 
 if non-recognition 
 ivriership in proji- 
 of the claimant, 
 it inutatioii of tin- 
 into lumlier, tiu' 
 iid so forth ; ami 
 constantly sold tn 
 ic iiiaiuifacturer ; 
 illicidty of credit 
 idveited. I can 
 te as sound tlie 
 ire ahle hy your 
 111 of the general 
 eclares tiiat in tlif 
 owncrshijxif the 
 you the slightest 
 it stock ; tliat it 
 hank, and may hi 
 wortli ; and thai 
 il to give him 
 f it ; you may 
 
 « 
 
 in that way get rid of, or minimise at all events, 
 the inconvenience wliicii is generally felt through- 
 out those portions of the world wiiicli adojit 
 our principle of jurisprudence to arise from tiie 
 recognition of tiie ))rinciple of ownersliip, condi- 
 tionally or otherwise, apart from tiie viHihle pos- 
 session or notoriety of claim. But if you are going 
 to adopt a provision so extensive as that now sug- 
 gested, you must consider what the convenience 
 'of the farmer is, and it is in the light of his con 
 venience as a class tiiat you must consider it ; and 
 jyou must also consider tiie enormous cliange you 
 iare going to make in tlie Pro\iiicial regulations with 
 respect to tlie ownersliip of jjroperty. It is not to 
 [ji small class or for particular circumstances, hut, 
 iBuhstantially, to a verj' lirrge ]iro])orti<in of tlie 
 persons and witli respect to a very laj-ge propor- 
 tion of tiie projierty owned throughout the 
 whole of Canada to which tlie new priiicijile 
 is to ap])ly, not indeed the jiriiiciple that the ! 
 fanner shall not he alile to secure a Uiaii from any- ! 
 one upon his iirojierty— it would he monstrous 
 to say he slioiild not — Init the ])riuciple tliat the 
 farmer shall l)e deprived of tiic credit and facility 
 Sforohtaining money and supplies which exist under 
 the present law. Because no man, after your pro- 
 lj)().scd change takes ])lace, can tell whether a 
 farmer really owns one liushel of tiie grain in 
 his harn or any of the cattle in his stahle. They , 
 ifcaiinot go anywhere to find out tliis informa- ■ 
 ^tUm ; tliey cannot go to any place where there is a 
 gregister of the cliattel mortgage, and they cannot 
 in.scertain anytliing ahout it ; hut tiiere may he a 
 Sliote ill some hank, wliich we will not call a 
 I" shaving " slioi), wiiidi is said to he the farmer's 
 l|j)resent resource, wliich note really represents the 
 ;^ooils. That is one asjiect of the ca.se. The other 
 ^^sjiect of tlii^ case is that it is projioaed to eH'ect, 
 not merely a partial innovation, to a limited extent 
 fiiiid for detined reasons, u]>oii the ordinary law as 
 jto jier.soiial projierty, liut it is jiroposed practically 
 Ho revolutionise that law ; and then you come neces- 
 ;i:sarily to the consideration as to how far it was 
 .i'eally intended, under the constitutional jiower, to 
 r^legislate on " hanking," that you should thus inter- 
 sfcre with the right of the Provinces to regulate the 
 lilispositiou of jiersoiuilty and indeed of real pro- 
 |j)erty as well. I know no reason, none in the world, 
 ^vliy, if this power does exist, you might not ayiply 
 fit to the land. I do not know why you cannot say 
 ■jliy another suh-section that hy a note <if hand or hy 
 ->a verhal |)roiiiise made hy a farmer to a hank, a 
 iniortgage may lie made on his land. The legisla- 
 tive rights of the Provinces cover jiroperty and civil 
 I'ights. The same words emhrace lioth, and you 
 iiiiay as well, .so far as the jurisdictional <|Ucstion 
 is concerned, jinivide for an oral cliiirge 11)1011 lands 
 vliy the fanner or tlie owner in favor of a liaiik <ir 
 ■for a jiarol charge or a charge hj' an intiument not 
 -Jliiider S'-al and not registered. So this opens a 
 'iVery large iiuestioii, and it is sutKcient to say that 
 Idle 1 would acquiesce in the view of the lion, 
 entleinan, reserving my personal o]iini(m as to this 
 
 tuestion while I would ac(iuit'sce in the view 
 liat he might not unfairly call on this Parliament 
 o re-enact suhstantially those provisions which 
 ave lieeii assumed to lie the law of the land, in 
 'egar<l to which tliere is some color of support, iit all 
 vents of judicial authority, yet when tie Minister 
 'f Justice calls uiioii us to make a change so exten- 
 live as the change which now appears to he clearly 
 
 involved inthenmendment, wearelxnind to consider 
 the whole(|uestioii,. seeing that we are further iiivail- 
 iug the Provincial jiower, however strong the posi- 
 tion of the Province may he, hy tlie jirojiosed appli- 
 cation to these new conditions of the )iropositioii8 
 we are invited t<i accept. With res))ect to the 
 ([uestion of the farmer's advantage to he ohtained 
 hy this extension, I suppose tiiat the great liiilk of 
 tlie representatives of this House are representa- 
 tives of rural districts or of districts in which the 
 farming coimiiunity forms a great majority. I 
 suppose they have at heart the interests of those 
 classes of their constituents, and no suggestion 
 to do them a real henetit could po.ssihly meet witli 
 anything else than the most respectful attention 
 and the most earnest desire to give it effect. The 
 (|uestion wlu;thei' you can provide cheap money 
 and easy mouiiy for the farmer is a (jiu-'stion which 
 has puzzled so-called theorists and speculators upon 
 tinancinl (piestions for a long time. You !iave had 
 the pro|)OHitioii of the land hank, the proposition 
 for farmers' hanks, the jiroposition for a national 
 currency hased uiioii the land, or an irredeemahle 
 currency, you have had luimerous pro])osals to liclji 
 the farming coinmuiiity to cheap and easy money ; 
 hut the conditions ii])on whicli cheap and easy 
 money are to he ohtained are ahsolutely o]iposed to 
 the princijiles which, in regard to the production 
 and manufacture of goods, are found to lie sustained 
 hy this Hfiuse and hy this country at the jircsent 
 day. It is the law of sii])|)Iy and demand and 
 of free coiii])etitioii, which is the vital andetl'ectiial 
 law in this regard, '{'he iiiomeiit the fanner can 
 show that he can give the same |iros])ect of a return, 
 with the .same rajiiility, with the same advantage, 
 with the same .security that other competitors 
 for the stock of availahle money can give, he 
 will get all the money he wants ; and to the ex- 
 tent to wliicl. he cannot show that he will uevei' 
 get it ; and if this Parliament sit from now to 
 ('hristinas, it will never he ahle to give it to him. 
 
 Mr. .SPROULK. Yes ; it has heen done in 
 (iermany. 
 
 Mr. I5LAKE. How? 
 
 SPROULK. There are farmers' 
 
 hanks 
 
 Mr. 
 
 there. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. I am not talking of farmers' 
 hanks. 'I'he lion, gentleman says he knows ahout 
 it — and he knows ahout everything — hut he told 
 us himself that the farmers have heen considciiiii; 
 the ipiestion of fanners' hanks for a long time, ami 
 that they have not heen ahle to tiiid the way of 
 working them ; nor has the hon. gentleman done 
 so. I advi.se him to go to (iermany and Hml out. 
 
 Mr. SPROULK. The hon. gentleman may have 
 as much time at his disposal to go there and tind 
 out as I have. 
 
 Mr. HLAKE. I will try and find out the next 
 time I am there. In the meantime, as we have 
 not the information from (iermany, and as the con- 
 dition of ( ieniian farmers, and the condition of ( ier- 
 man operatives, and the condition of ( ieriiian 
 .society, and thecondition of ( ierinaniimiuifacturers, 
 and the condition of (iernian politics at this 
 moment, is not the m<ist favorahle in this w<irld, 
 we had, perhaps, hetter not attempt to tind light 
 from (iermany, for the purpo.ses of this deliate 
 at all events, and jiroceed to ccmsider what else 
 we can do. The present proposal is not to 
 
Hml the iiioiiey in ( U'rnmiiy or to a«loj)t the 
 plan of (iennany ; hut it is to estahlish it by 
 arranging iilthougii I ih) not think that wouMbe 
 tlie etfeut of tlie hon. gentleman'^ a)nen(bnent — 
 that the farmer may l)e al)le l)y this cheap anil 
 easy process to ])le(tge his proi)erty to the bunk. 
 I think that tlie lion, gentleman's amenibnent, 
 whicli sim])ly says tliat the farmer may o))tain 
 money upon tlie security of his property, is an 
 amendment which does not alter the position of 
 tlie farmer one whit. He can now obtain money 
 uiion the security of his property if he only finds 
 any one who will lend it to him. There is no 
 objection at present to his giving a chattel mort- 
 gage or to his giving security, according to the 
 ProN incial law, to private lenders. The (piestiou 
 is what the advantage or detriment to hiin may be, 
 if the provision be introduced which permits him 
 to give a security note to a bank, instead of a chattel 
 mortgage to a private lender, which security note 
 puts him, as an agricultural producer, in the same 
 position as the producer of other produce, or the 
 manufacturer of other goods. The position of 
 the farmer then will be just this ; By his giv- 
 ing a security note, that is to say, without 
 <livulging to the rest of the world that he 
 is giving a mortgage- he will be able to se- 
 cure the bank for the advance. That is all that 
 can be jirojiosed in this regard, and the ques- 
 tiou we have to consider is, would tl-.is be to 
 the advantage of the great mass of the farmers, 
 who, I am happy to believe, do not want to borrow 
 upon personal security , but who do want t > be able 
 to retain and use that security in their ordinary 
 tran.sacti(ms which is due to the realisation of the 
 factby those with whom they deal, that they are the 
 owners of certain property, upon which general 
 credit they are supplied with goods and given 
 money. The general liasis cf credit which the farm- 
 ing community enjoy at jiresent would be destroyed 
 by this proposal, and any advantage which it 
 may give tiiem will be counterbalanced, far more 
 than counterbalanced by this loss. My own 
 opinion is that the mass of the farming community 
 would lie seriously damnified by this proposal. 
 I believe there would arise a degree of uncertainty 
 with regard to the ordinary basis of credit, in 
 reference to the whole farming community of the 
 country which would bo most calamitous, and that 
 instead of helping the fanner, we would do him 
 a serious injury. I do not think it makes much 
 difference to the banks at all, for it is not so much a 
 banking question ; but as far as the interest of the 
 farmer is concerne<l, I believe he is better off 
 as he is now, than he would be if this amendment 
 were introduced into the clause. 
 
 Mr. BLAKP]. I did not say that the security 
 notes were so much worthless paper. 
 
 Mr. KIRKPATRICK. The hon. gentleman 
 said it was an infringement of civil rights, and that 
 in order to become a security, there must be a 
 registration or a visible change of the property. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. What I pointed out was that it 
 was highly questionable, in my present judgment, 
 whether we had the power to so interfere with the 
 Provincial laws on this subject ; but discussing 
 the policy with respect to the farmer, I assumed, 
 both in his case and in the case of the manufac- 
 turer, that the security note would be valid, 
 because, if void, it would make no difference. 
 
 Mr. KIRKPATRICK. First, it was highly 
 doubtful whether it was worth anything ; and, in 
 the seccnid place, it was injuring the credit of the 
 farmer. If it injures the credit of the farmer, it 
 injures the credit of the manufacturer, and, there- 
 fore, the clause is altogether objectionable. The 
 clause, originally, was confined to warehousemen 
 who had the property of others committed to their 
 care, and who could properly give a warehouse 
 receipt ; but now it is projiosed to extend it to 
 manufacturers of goods. " 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. It is already extended. 
 AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I ([uite agree with the hon. g 
 tleman that the amendment he suggests would 
 
 :en- 
 
 10 
 
 the way to ])ut the farmers in just the position in 
 which lie jiroposes to jilace them. Let nie give a 
 practical illustration of the difficulties of the situ- 
 ation and of the <lifference between the two classes 
 to which he refers. The manufacturer who gives a 
 security note is, of course, in constant relations, 
 
 fierhaps too constant relations for the comfort of 
 )oth, with his banker ; and the banker, if he knows 
 his business, keeps a pretty close eye upon tlic 
 customer whose security note he has, and there 
 must be always a good deal of trust and cimlidencc 
 in the business. The banker has confidence that 
 the manufacturer, who is constantly disposing ot 
 Iiis goods, will, notwithstanding this, keep in 
 stock, on the whole, the security of manufactured 
 stuff which is represented by the secured note. 
 That is the position of the manufacturer, and 
 that is the way in which the thing is worked. 
 Then the banker if he knows his business, knows 
 whether the manufacturer is kee]Hiig two banking 
 accounts ; and if the manufactuier clandestinely 
 keeps a necond account with another bank, he 
 generally comes to grief, to the loss of one or both. 
 There again you have the trust, the confidence, the 
 watchfulness and vigilance which it is possible 
 to apply to that class of cases. But these condi- 
 tions do not apply to the farmer. He resides a 
 little way, let us say, out of Kingston, where there 
 are several banks, or a little way out of Toronto, 
 where there are a great many banks. He may or 
 may not have come into town, and at one of the 
 fifteen or twenty banking offices may or may not 
 have obtained a discount by giving his security 
 note upon his grain or cattle. \\'lio is to tell 
 whether he has done s. or not ? How a;e you to 
 know at any time whether he really owns the 
 grain or cattle which he offers as security, or 
 whether, if he wants to sell, they are his to sell. 
 A degree of uncertainty necessarily exists in his 
 case which does not exist in the other ; and in 
 ordei' to enable the borrowing farmer, who has 
 not credit enough in his own locality, to borrow 
 without giving a chattel mortgage, every farmer 
 in the country is to have the assumed title to his 
 property placed in doubt and the facilities for the 
 sale and disposal of his property considerably 
 impeded. 
 
 Mr. KIRKPATRICK. Does a grain dealer 
 buying grain go to a registry office to see wliether 
 a chattel mortgage is registered against it ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. No. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I can assure the hon. gentleman 
 (Mr. iSproule) that I did not make any observations 
 
•at, it was liifclily 
 I aiiytliiiig ; and, in 
 ; the crellit of the 
 ; i)f the fanner, it 
 icturer, and, thero- 
 il>jectioiial)le. Tlie 
 to wareliouHunu'ii 
 committed to their 
 
 five a warehouse 
 to extend it to 
 
 jxtended. 
 
 iODUCTS. 
 
 witii tiie hoii. gen- 
 suggests would 1)0 
 just the position in 
 in. Let nie give ii 
 culties of the situ- 
 een the two classes 
 icturer who gives a 
 constant relations, 
 For the comfort of 
 Hinker, if he knows 
 :)se eye upon the 
 he has, and there 
 rust and confidence 
 18 confidence that 
 tantly disposing of 
 ing this, keep in 
 ;y of manufactured 
 the secured note, 
 manufacturer, and 
 thing is worked, 
 lis business, knows 
 eping two banking 
 -urer clandestinely 
 another bank, he 
 OSS of one or both, 
 le confidence, the 
 h it is possible 
 15ut these condi- 
 er. He resides a 
 ijstoii, where there 
 out of Toronto, 
 inks. He may oi' 
 ind at one of the 
 may or may not 
 ing his security 
 Who is to tell 
 How are you to 
 really owns the 
 as security, or 
 y are liis to sell. 
 ily exists in his 
 le other ; and in 
 fanner, who has 
 ality, to borrow 
 ige, every farmer 
 umed title to his 
 facilities for the 
 rty considerably 
 
 a grain dealer 
 *i to see whether 
 gainst it ? 
 
 hon. gentleman 
 any observations 
 
 .'JSon his renuii'ks with any sneering intent. I may 
 Bay that I <lo not know of any connnou nienil)er of 
 his Hou.se, and I can assure the hon. gentleman 
 luit, so far from regarding him as a connnou meni- 
 ler, I regard him as a most unconnnon member. 
 
 Mr. ULAKK. I suppose that, under clause (il), it 
 
 nidil be po.ssible for a bank, on the same con- 
 
 ition and under the same circumstances under 
 
 liich it may use this interest in real estate to take 
 
 s an additional security, the security of a timber 
 
 iiiiit; but 1 upprehenil what the hon. gentleinan 
 
 .•ants is that the banks slumld be jierndtted to lend 
 
 nj)on tlie security of tindier limits directly and at 
 
 nee. That wcmld be practically adopting, jjerluips 
 
 n tlie inostobjectiona')le f(jrm, the])rinci))leof land 
 
 anks. Our banks are not leased on the principle of 
 
 and banks, That is not tlie iirinciple of our present 
 
 )aiiking sy.stem. It is not to lend ujion real security, 
 
 br upon futiu'e, unrealised values. You do not allow 
 
 a bank to lend upon the security of the most highly 
 
 J productive fee simple of valuable real estate, pro- 
 
 I diiciiig great rents. You allow it to take a niortga<'e, 
 
 i under certain circumstances, as additional security 
 
 i for its contract in ordinary i)usiness. You may do 
 
 :. the .same tiling in reference to timber limits. If you 
 
 j introduce the principled of lending directly, on the 
 
 ;ecurity of a timber limit, why not allow the banks 
 
 ,o lend directly (m the fee simple of a warehouse, 
 
 11 the real property of any person, and you at 
 
 lice establish the principle of a land bank, con- 
 
 rary to that on which our banking system is based. 
 
 Mr. W'ALDIP]. The fact heretofore is that the 
 
 ecurity was given on the logs, and unless the 
 
 cense to cut timber was clearly transferred with 
 
 he logs, the property tlid not go together, and it 
 
 as been held necessary for the banks to hold the 
 
 icense or the right to cut timber so as to continue 
 
 heir right in the lumber. It has been the coin- 
 
 ^1011 practice of the banks to make advances to 
 
 umufacturers of lumber, who have purchased the 
 
 ght to cut lumber. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. My hon. friend misunder.stood 
 lie if he supposes I am ol)jecting to tiiat. I under- 
 ;^taiid it is perfectly legitimate, that a bank 
 ijwhich makes an advance to a manufacturer 
 
 for the purpose of enabling him to cut his 
 iniber, should take as an atlditional security, 
 
 even now, the security of real estate. The 
 Ikiii. member for Frontenae however wants 
 something more, but what detinilely I <lo not 
 know ; Viut I assume it is this, that instead of 
 making the transaction a legitimate lianking tran- 
 saction, which is an advance to a jierson in tlie 
 course of his business, and on his general credit for 
 I the doing of work and upon the prospect of a hoiid 
 \Jidi'. mercantile operati(m, you are going to 
 authorise an advance upon the security of liis 
 chattel interest, whatever it may l)e in real e.state. 
 That is not the ))rineiple of the present .\ct. The 
 princijile of the inesent Act is that you make it 
 upon the personal security, and, with reference to 
 the mercantile operation, having the right under 
 certain eireumstances to take as an additional 
 security, a charge on real estate. Hut I am bound 
 to say that this Bill seems to contemitlate the 
 .statutory recognition of that which is new in law, 
 though I fear not in practice, the loaning directly 
 and primarily on chattels, instead of restricting 
 the basis of loans as does the jiresent law. This is 
 a i|Uesti(mable extension. 
 
 Mr. KIHKPATRICK. I undeistand that timber 
 limits reipiire a great deal of capital to work them. 
 The owner generally goes to a bank to obtain that 
 capital, anil it is for the security of the bank not 
 only to have the security of the timber cut, but 
 the security of the license. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. So they have. I am told that 
 half the limits in this country are in the hands of 
 the banks. 
 
 On section 76, 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Would it not be well to make it 
 a written promise ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. It rather strikes ine as if the 
 man would l)e liable, if lie did not deliver po.sses- 
 sion to the bank of the goods, no matter for what 
 reason they were not deli\tMe(l. Sui)pose, for 
 instance, they were burned up. 
 
 Mr. HALL. The non. delivery must be wilful. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The Act says "if he does not 
 deliver to the hank possession thereof ; " the word 
 " wilful " does not appear. 
 
 OTTAWA : Printed by Brown Ciiamberi.in, Printer to tlv. Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
 2 B 
 
\f 
 
Htiousc of Commons Bebat^s 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 PEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 ANKS AND BANKING. 
 
 WKDNKSDAY, Ttii MAY, 1800. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I feiir very much that what ha.s 
 fallen t'loiii hotli Hi(li;» may lead to oDiiHiihirahle 
 niiMeoiu'L'ption. The sugguHtiou of the Finance 
 Mini.stei' in, taking the particular iuHtance to 
 iliiili reference! has heen made, that some 
 Jfcni|iiiry would lie inaile which would result in the 
 liscovery, in such a case, that a considerahle por- 
 tion of the stock had hcen lloated hy means of an in- 
 Ititutiim created hy the hank itself. That is imj)os- 
 lilile. That did not and co\dd not take place in the 
 lase mentioned, until aftertheauthority for the i.ssue 
 >f the stock had heen ohtained. It was not until 
 he stock came to he placed on the market that 
 khe machinery referred to was used for the pur- 
 po.se of facilitating its heing taken up. I <1() not 
 blow of anything tliat could have liCcn done in 
 fchat matter, and I am sonunvhat familiar with the 
 pircumstances, unless the Treasury had taken the 
 fery extraordinary and invidious course, as a ))re- 
 liminary to giving the certificate, of making siudi 
 In (examination as wmdd result in ascertaining the 
 lvalue of the assets. The diihculty thei'e was that 
 .here were enoruKms assets which were allcgeil to 
 and 1 have no doulit were, I'cgardcd hy all the 
 llircctors as heing -l cannot .say what the tem- 
 pcriiuient of t!ie cashier iiught lead him to hdievc 
 hut tluiy were regarded hy the iliiectors, at all 
 rents, within a few weeks of tlie collajise, as 
 L'iiig perfectly good. The condition of the hank 
 (i|ipciU'ed, long after the increase of ca))ital, to he 
 perfectly good. Its real condition was oidy to he 
 hown hy analysing the value of its assets, hy 
 determining wliether an enormous sum sliould 
 be wiitten oil' from notei and otlier securi- 
 es wliicii it held. Is it suggested that the 
 roasury Hoard, as a ])reliminary to deciding 
 hether the capital stock shall he permitted to he 
 icreaied. shall enter into sHcli an enipiiry as 
 hat? If that is not tlie suggestion, then I am 
 jifr lid 11 )tliing can ho done. If that is the 
 liiggestion, and if it is adopted, I fear a very great 
 lesjionsihility will he incurred hy the (jloverumeiit 
 af the day wldcli announces that it has made 
 kni(uiry and that the proposal is a sound one. In 
 bliis particular case, I think the (noposal was to 
 louhlc the capital at a premium of forty, oo ;liai 
 
 I there would have to he an en(|uiry into the con- 
 diti(ui of this institution, showing that its present 
 stock was worth at least forty, and that its earn- 
 ing power was such as to justify the piihlic in suh- 
 scrihing at forty. Nothing could he more fatal 
 to the pul)lic credit than to make a slight and 
 colorahle en((uiry ; nothing more arduous than an 
 exhaustive eiKpiiry, and I am afraid that this clause 
 will lead to nothing hut ditliculty. 
 
 Mr. FOSTKK. What my lion, friend has stated 
 as to the responsihility of the Treasury Hoard, hy 
 placing this clau.se in the IJill, is undouhtedly true. 
 I su])pos(! we would have power to go into the 
 examination of the ali'airs of a bank as a condition 
 j)reced(;nt to allowing them to increase their capital 
 stock, hut that is not the intention. It might be 
 
 I that the shareholdei's would decide by a majority 
 
 j to increase the stock, while a large and respectable 
 minority might not agree to that, and any repre- 
 sentation by that minority as to the increase or 
 decrease of stock might very well be taken into 
 consideration hy the Treasury lioiird. If we do 
 not go so far as to make a thorough inspection of 
 
 , the condition of the hank, which is not coiitem- 
 plateil, I do not think tliis involves the grave 
 
 ! responsibility which the lion, gentleman suggests 
 in regard to the affairs of tlie bank. 
 
 Mr. ULAKE. I wouhl suggest to the lion. 
 geiitU'niaii that his jireseiit view would be met by 
 putting in a ])rovision that a certain majority shall 
 l>e recjuired. If a lespectalile minority is to have 
 its weight, let that be potential ; but the sugges- 
 tion that the lion, gentleman is going to make an 
 inspection as to the expediency or the justitiability 
 of this increa.se in stock, is a very dangerous one. 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. On section 57 discussion arose 
 with reference to the payment of notes circulating 
 by the ditlerent hanks, and I will suggest that 
 instead of the word "payment " we put the word 
 " eirculaticm." 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. What does that mean? 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. That means just what we are 
 driving at, that the notes issued by ditt'erent banks 
 shall not go behiw par, and that the banks shidl 
 
 1 
 
\\l 
 
 make what arrnn^cinoiitH aru iiucuHMary in order to 
 I'liHum tlii^ir Ix'iii^ i^irciilHtnl at par, not holow par. | 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. J Mupjioiw wf are a lianl money' 
 UouHe anil the lion, genthurian iH a hani money 
 man. T do not lUKh^rHtatid how we run deehiie 
 that the ciriudatiiin of tlie hank Hhall h<^ at |)ur 
 with(nit providing tliat it Hhall he payal)le at [lar. 
 
 Mr. KOSTKK. 'I'lie hank will have to h)()k after 
 that matter. 
 
 Mr. I{1..AKK. I am afraid tho lion, gentlenum 
 i8 getting to Moft money very fa8t. 
 
 Mr. DAVIKS (RK.I.) I want to know If by 
 eiiai.'ting the lirst part of the Meetion, declaring that 
 they mIiuU iriake M'xdi arrangementM us are necesHai'y 
 to ensure the circulation of the notes at par, the 
 hunks have to estalilish agencies at other places 
 than at those mentioned ? 
 
 Mr. FOSTKK. If it is necosdary to ensure the 
 circulation of the notes at par, other agencies must 
 be e8tal)lished. 
 
 Mr. DAVIKS (I'.K.I.) It will ini))ose a very 
 heavy tluty on the snuiller hanks, especially those 
 in the Maritime Provinces, if they have, in order 
 to ensure payment at par of the circulation through- 
 out the l)ominion, to establish agencies in every 
 town and city in Canada. 
 
 Mr. HLAKK. Tho latter part of this clause is 
 not an a<le(|uate provision for the fulfilment of the 
 first part of it, and if it is to he interpreted as an 
 exposition of wluit the hanks are to do in fulfilment 
 of the obligation of the prior imrt, it is altogether 
 an iiiade(|uate fultilnient. 1 he clause would be 
 stronger with its original wording, and with the 
 latter part struck out. I feel there is a great 
 deal of ditliculty in the direction which the lion, 
 nieinbcr for Queen's (Mr. Davies) has pointed out. 
 The difficulty will be very binall indeed in regard 
 to the larste banks, each of which possesses a con- 
 siderable number of offices, and each of which can 
 compensate the other by making mutual facilities 
 for redemption. It is difTerent, however, in re- 
 gard to the smaller banks. Take, for instance, a 
 note issued by the liaiik of Prince Edward Island, 
 which is handed in for redemption at Vancouver. 
 If an arrangement could be made between the 
 banks for their mutual accommodation in this re- 
 gard, the difficulty might bo solved. 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. The arrangement which is 
 indicated in section 5(5, is one which the banks 
 have voluntarily taken on themselves. It is not a 
 compulsion laid on them against their will, but it 
 is an arrangement into which they are (piite willing 
 to enter. To the representatives of the hanking 
 institutions, I pointed out the very objections 
 which the hou. gentlenum has taken. Thel)ankers 
 said, that practically those objections were not for- 
 midable, because they were even now, and had 
 been during the last year, very materially altering 
 the condition of things by agreements made 
 amongst themselves, and no dimcidty whatever 
 would l)e exj)erienced. It would of course be a 
 (juite (lifFerent matter, if we jn'oposed this com- 
 pulsory clause against the wishes of the smaller 
 banks. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I quite agree with the hon. gen- 
 tleman's statement. If the smaller ))anks were 
 satisfied, we should be satisfied. 
 
 On section 57, 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. We will strike out all after the 
 word '■ not" in section 57, line M. 
 
 Mr. liliAKE. l)o not you think that nectiona 
 5(1 and 57 <'onllii^t ? In the earlier part of se(;tion 
 511, a person is to gel cash or thi! eijuivah'Ut for 
 cash, and he cannot get any more than that. 
 
 Mr. HLAKE. As 1 pointed out hefore, I think 
 it is very important that the bank should, as soon 
 as possible, cease to be the holder of its own stock. 
 During this time, the double liability which 
 appears to the public is wholly illusory. A 
 bank, which is in a |)osition to go on at all, ou 
 he able to sell its stock in six months. 
 
 On schedule D, 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I confess that it is very difficult, 
 for me at any rate, to judge which form is best. 
 V\'i? ought ('(irtainly to ohtain all the information 
 which we can wit hout umluly Imiiipering the opera 
 tions of the banks, and we ought even to ol)tain 
 such information as is eshential to ii fair view of the 
 situation, though it may, to some extent, hamper' 
 them. Kut we know that some of our hanks 
 occasionally place large sums of money at particu 
 lar points in the Slates, aiul <lo considerable 
 business there. A bank, for instance, may have a 
 hirgo sum of money at an agency in New York 
 and another at an agency in San Francisco ; and if 
 you tuke into account the gross sums due by and 
 to these agencies, you might get, I will not say a 
 perfect view, but a considerable insight into the 
 amount of Canadian funds invested in the Unit'"! 
 States. That would he very intcn'esting, if it >' 
 not unduly ham)>er the operations of the haul 
 the United States. We do not at present 
 how much of a bank's capital it isusing in Toroii^ 
 Montreal, London or other ])lace8 where it is doing 
 business. Is there any public ground why we should 
 do what is now jiroposed, if it is going to interfere 
 with the business of our banks in the States? The 
 only ground that has been suggested is, that if it i.s 
 found that they are investing any large sums of 
 money there, some ousiness tax may be imposeil 
 ujHUi them. We know that some of them arc 
 obliged to ])ay a business tax now. I suppose they 
 would like to be in the position of some people who 
 are taxed on income, that nobody but themselves 
 should know on what income this business t«\ 
 should be computed. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I sym))athise with the state 
 ments of the hon. memVier for t'ardwell (Mr. 
 White), and I suggest to the Finance Ministi r 
 tliat, as I do not sai)pose he intends to take tiu' 
 third reading to-night, he should consider tin' 
 subject and communicate with the banking au- 
 thorities to a.scertain whether tiiere is any reiil 
 difficulty that can be stated by him f)n the floor of 
 the House in the way of tho suggestion being car- 
 ried out, because the statement of tho hou. 
 gentleman certainly shows that we do not gi t 
 anything like approaching tho facts in the re- 
 turn. 
 
 Mr. FOSTFR i have no objection to allow it 
 to go in that way. 
 
 Mr. KENNY. I understood the hon. member 
 for Cardwoll (Mr. White) to refer solely to tho 
 Bank of British North America. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. No; he said there were aevernl 
 others doing business in the United States to whicli 
 his remarks would apply. 
 
 OTTAWA: 
 Printed by Brown Chamricrun, Printer tn the Uiipen'f 
 Most E)xcclloiit .Muje.-'ty. 
 
spouse of Commons jpl^tlnte$ 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 ISPEECH OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 (IN 
 
 ROYAL x\S8I:NT TO BILLS. 
 
 FRIDAY, 28jii MAKCJIl, ISllO. 
 
 .Mr. liI,.\K!:. I wish to call the attention of the 
 Mini.stcr.i Mil I till' lloiiHc to II i|U(:.stioii of |iarliii- 
 biu'iitMrv ]ni' iU't;<^ wliiih iiii.sc.s on thi; |(ioi'(i'iliiiu;M 
 tliat took jiliii'i' licit! iiiid ill tliu otiu'r Hoii.su 
 |iiii Wi'iliif.siiiiy, anil I iiill utti'iilioii to it at tlic 
 rarlirst Mioiiiuiit attci tlio Votes anil l'i(ut'filiii.i{s 
 liavi' Ih'cii placiil iK'forc ii.s. I5y ri.'ft'li'ilm to tliosc 
 
 iti'H ami I'liH'cciliiif^s, it will lie hcoii that yon, 
 
 ^ii', ruporti'il to UA a Mt'snaj^u wliii li yon rociMvi'il 
 
 I'loiii the s(HM-ftuiy of ills I'lxii'llilii'y the ( loM'iiior 
 
 [leiii'ial, hi'aiin;;; ilato 24tli March, iiifoiiiiiiij; ii.s 
 
 hat ; 
 
 "Till' HciiiDniliii' Sir Willinni Ritcliii', iicitian us ricpiit.v 
 1(1 His l';.\('i'llcin'.v lliciicivi'riiorlii'iii'i'iil.will iiroi'i.'ril Id llio 
 Ji'IimIc Ci III III I II' I' I mi Wi'diii'sdiiy, Ilii^'JCitli i list., lit tiiV'li)i.'k 
 III till' iilti'i'iiiKiii, t'lir till' |iiir|ii>s(> III' giviiii; iissunt tii Iho 
 liills wliirli liiivo iiiisscil lilt) .'<i'iiiitn mill thu lliiiise of 
 riiiiiiniiiis iliirliiK tlic pi'csiiiit Sejisioii," 
 
 liiil at a siil).sc(|m'iit |H'rioil, after tlii' iiiuinlicrs of 
 
 his House had utti'iiilcil the Stiiati', you ic|iorti'il 
 Jo lis that His lliiiiiir the Deputy ( loveriior had lieeii 
 
 leased to nive assent, in Her .Majesty's name, to 
 pertain {'ills, nuiiilieriiii; thirty-two or thirty-three. 
 pVl the iiioiiieiil I tliou;,dit that these did not eoiii- 
 |)rise all the liills passed iluriii;; the pre 'eiit S"ssioii 
 
 ptothat liine.aiiil upon further eiii|uiry I liiid there 
 iri'severaliiiipiirtaiit IJillsoniitted alioul e\eiiteeii 
 
 Itogetlier mi which no action whatever was taken. 
 
 'he constitutional rule of old staiidinj^ is that to all 
 Hills which have passeil through all the stages, and 
 [lire, a.s far as the two Houses are concerned, ready 
 
 I lieeoiiie law, the Royal .Vs.scnt is due and shiuild 
 
 i: given on the first occasion on which it is given to 
 
 liuiy Bills. A ])roiiiineiit ami marked in-taiiceof a 
 
 .iolation of this rule was one wliicli occurred in the 
 
 time of the first Charles, in the .'"Session prior to the 
 
 'Oxford I'arlinnipnt, when it fornicil the suhjcet 
 of a lonfcreiice hy ii joint comniittee of lioth 
 llousi's. 'I'his conference agreed on the geneiiil 
 nrinciple, which is well iindcrstuod, that the 
 l^oyal Assent is due to all liills « hicli ha\e passed 
 hiitli Houses ; and the iiiodern practice in I'lngland 
 is, owing to the length of the Sessions, In |m\e 
 numerous commissions during a long.Scssiiin fur the 
 purpose of giving Ho\al .Vs.seiit to jjjll.s, from time 
 to time, ,1 • they are ripe for assent. These I'lnglisli 
 coinniissiiin- are limited. The ('oniinissiciners are 
 given powci to assent to only certain named liills, 
 and, cons. > ntly, they can assent to no otliers. 
 Therefore, i.. "id thu iiiionvenieiiee and lireacli of 
 the coiistitutiiiii.il rule which might arise sliniilil a 
 fresh Iiill lieconic ripe for assent in the few days 
 lii'lweeii the a])poiiitmeiit of the coiiiniissii)n and 
 the Hoyal .\sselit, it is the custom of hotli Houses 
 not to press forward any such measures to the 
 linal stage in that interval. They are kept iiicoin- 
 lilete, in order that there may he no otlici' Iiill 
 ready for assent on the day when the Hoyal 
 Asneiit is given to the liills named. It seems to 
 me there has lieeii, for some cause which I do not 
 understand, and will not attempt to cliaractcrisi', 
 a violation of the ancient iind wholesome ('(insti- 
 tutional rule on this occasion ; for which violation, 
 of course, the .Ministers wlm are responsihU' to the 
 Crown, and to the iieople, iiiiist answer to ns. 1 
 now merely hriiig this i|Uistion hcfnre'tho House 
 \\ ithont further action ; and it .seems to me it is 
 important for ns to consider whethi'r we shoiill 
 not as.sei't hy icsolntion the constitutional rule, so 
 that this infringement may not he drawn into 
 a precedent. 
 
 ;tion to allow it 
 
 OTTAWA ; I'rinted by ISliow n Cll.\.Mlii;;iiJN, rrinlur to the Queen's .Most Kxcelleiit .Majesty. 
 
> 
 
 s 
 
 \ 
 
K^ 
 
 lA^ 
 
 \ 
 
 $iou$^ of Commons Sebat^a 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 TORONTO UNIVERSITY, &c. 
 
 FEIDAY, 14th MAECH, 1890. 
 
 Mr. BLAKu. I beg to call the attention of hon. 
 gentlemen opposite to a (jnestion of public interest, 
 which, it seems to me, ought to be considered by us 
 for a moment at this .stage of tlie Session. I refer 
 to the matter which was l>rought up in tlie House 
 yesterday l)y an hon. member for one of the 
 divisions of Toronto, and whicli the right lion, the 
 First Minister asked to be alloweil to stand. I 
 mean the (juestion as to whether the (ioverinnent 
 intended to sul)init to Parliament some propo.sition 
 with reference to the recent conHagration at the 
 University of Toronto. I have some reason to believe 
 that suggestions have been made from more than 
 one ((uarter to the Administration on that subject ; 
 and, following tlie cour.se whicli it lias always 
 seemed to mo more expedient to jiursue, I am 
 anxious to makes any suggestions I have to make 
 with reference to a money grant, here openly and 
 under my responsibility as amemlierof thisHouse. 
 I wisii to submit that tlie circumstances of the case 
 are such as may not unreasonably induce the 
 favorable con.sideration of tho.se who are resp(m- 
 silde for tiie administration of public affairs, and of 
 the House at large, to some exceptional proceed- 
 ings on this pai'ticular occasion. Tlie institution, 
 whose I0.SS gives rise to my present observations, is 
 one which may not ii.ifairly be described as of a 
 national character. It is one wliollj' unsectarian, 
 and whose benefits are participated in by all ! 
 citizens, of whatever creed or origin, of the large ; 
 Province to which they belong ; and in a coiiimu- 
 nity like ours, which is, and is long destined, I hope, 
 to be a <lemocratic community, without any enor- 
 mous accumulation in individual hands of property, 
 composed mainly of men wlio are depemlent for 
 their maintenance upon their own labor and 
 exertions, it is of peculiar importance that institu- 
 tions of tlie highest chL-^s for learning should not 
 suffer .serious impairment, but, on the contrary, 
 sliould be efficiently promoted. The character of 
 the calamity to wiiich I refer is so exceptional 
 that a remarkably marked and far extended 
 interest and sympathy have already been ex- 
 hibited. In the neighboring I'rovince, a pro- 
 
 position to grant aid, as a mark of sympathy, is 
 now far advanced and will doubtless become 
 effectual, and in the city of London a committee 
 has been formed, comprising the names of very 
 distinguislied men, with whom we are familiar as 
 having filled, some of them, the highest station in 
 our country, as the representatives of our Sovereign, 
 and otliers as former Colonial Secretaries, with the 
 view to signify, in a substantial, tangible manner, 
 that a bond of sj'nipathy exists, even between 
 us and that remote community. I may say that, 
 after a very careful consideration of the situation, 
 which my own relation to the University rendered 
 it my duty to give, I am convinced that the 
 peculiar positi(m is one whicli entitles us to say 
 thattheexigency is great. Contemporaneously with 
 the loss of the library, to which I am about more 
 particularly to refer, has occurred the destruction 
 of the main j)ortion of the fabric : and the restor- 
 ation of that portion, without any unnecessary 
 expense whatever, in the most economical manner 
 possible, consistent with the efficiency of the 
 institution as it now stands, will involve a very 
 large expenditure for the old and the new 
 necessary buildings, beyond all the public or muni- 
 cipal and all the private assistance wliicli we can 
 now fairly expect. A huge public grant has been 
 made, a municipal grant is hoped for, and the 
 liberality of the fricnils of the institution, 
 inchnling the graduates, has been appealed to, 
 and ajipealed to so far with gratifying results. But 
 from what I know of the situation, I am convinced 
 that all possible resources which are available will 
 have to be apjilied in order that the efficiency of 
 the institution in its present condition, and looking 
 to its present needs, may be maintained. I am 
 not at all insensible of the difficulty and the delicacy 
 of the situation in more than one respect. A ques- 
 tion may be raised with reference to our interference 
 with educational institutions, a question may be 
 raised also with reference to money grants, which 
 may form an incfuivenient precedent ; and to these 
 considerations I am myself disposed to attach — 
 although this particular institution is one which 
 
w 
 
 2 
 
 ■would naturnlly induce me to think liglitly of them 
 — all due \veif,'ht. Hut it st'eius tome that tliecaso, 
 iu the j)aiticular asueet to wliieU I am ahoiit to 
 rtHiidu, is not, after all, a ditticult one, and is opeji 
 to a solution wliieli lelieves us from ilittietdty, be- 
 cause what is suggested, and what seems to he the 
 most practical method of atl'oi'iliug relief, is that 
 tiie (lovernment should pro])ose to tlie Hcnise some 
 relief in res])eet of that duty — tliat very onerous 
 duty, as I venture to conceive it is, the duty on 
 knowledge -which is imposed in tlie sliajje of the 
 tax on hooks. We have a lihiiiry to re|)lace which 
 will cost moi'c than .SloO.lKMt, and that at prices 
 and vi.hu's irrcsjjcctive of duty, or, at auj' rate, 
 having regard only to the liglit hook tax whicli 
 prevailed formerly. The l)ook tax i.s now, as well 
 as I can lemendier, at the rate of I.") jjer cent., and 
 it seems to me that no inconvenient iirecedent 
 would be created, owing to the exce))tional char- 
 acter of the occasion, an<l the almost impossibility 
 — I hope the imi)os.sibility, or, at any rate, the 
 extreme improbability, of its recurrence — if tlie 
 Government would make u|) their miml to j)i()po.se 
 such a grant, based on such a view, as would 
 involve the remission of the tax on the books to be 
 8U])plied. It is with a view of making that sug- 
 ge8ti(m to the Government that I have ventured to 
 interjiose for a moment between you. Sir, and the 
 ado))tion of the moti(m now before the Hotise. 
 
 STEAM COMMUNICATIOX BETWEEN 
 HALIFAX AND ST. JOHN, N.B., &c. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I congratuhite the lion, gentle- 
 man's county upon having retui'ued to Parliament 
 a member so ))atriotic and so broad in his view.s, 
 and .so liberal in his notions as to Canadian policy ; 
 I congratulate the ( iovernment on having such an 
 ardent and enthusiastic supporter of the great 
 National Policy ; but, above and beyond all this, I 
 congratulate the lion, gentleman's company on 
 having such an able and earnest advocate of the 
 policy which is to result in the granting of this 
 8ul)sidy to his company. The hon. gentleman said 
 he might be regaided by some people as something 
 of a crank on this sul)ject. If lie l)e, I take leave 
 to say to him that the crank lias been vcy well 
 oiled by liis friends in front of him this Sessiim. 
 Not a single revolution of the crank or of tlie 
 crank's steamboat engines but is produced by the 
 moneys of the Canadian peojile, to he voted at the 
 hon. gentlemen's instance, and by his assistance. 
 The hon. gentleman was asked a (juestioii, which 
 I am told was greatly reiireiiendedT— it was said 
 that it was his private business. It was alleged 
 that the whole charter juice of the steamboat was 
 less than the whole amount of the subsidy to Ijc 
 voted. The lion, gentleman made an interesting 
 speech ; he touched on many topics, hut he omitted 
 that ; nothing was said on that sui)ject whatever. 
 The common sense aspect of the (piestion, which, 
 perhaps, never forced it.self on tiie hon. gentleman's 
 attention, but which did force itself a little on 
 ours, remains in the .same obscurity in that regard, 
 on which he could have given us the liest of infor- 
 mation, that it was in before he ro.se. 
 
 Mr. BAIRl). I really forgot that. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I thought so. 
 
 Mr. BAIRl). I know it will be a sou 
 
 of 
 
 satisfaction to the hon. gentleman to learu that 
 
 the amount paid for the use of the steamers will be 
 nearly double what is received from the ( Jovern- 
 meut. ,, Tlni'scliartof, jis near as I can recolJe(JJi--— 
 'iNft-..,A'ciii, Wart nu)il(J it iuul cwniiixmicutejl "it to 
 me afterwai-ds — was CS.")(> .sfeilihg per ino.-.tli for 
 the use of this steamer. Then add to that the 
 steward dejiartnient, the coal 
 
 Mr. 1) AVTES (P. E.I. ) How nmch does the hon. 
 gentleman get per month? 
 
 Mr. BAIRl). You must take it altogether, as 
 near as I can give it to you. Tlie trip occupies 
 two months. In regard to these ocean steamers, 
 tlieit! are two forms- of charter : one is called net, 
 and the otlier gross. Under the one foi'in, you 
 take the steamship as .slie is, jirovided with all that 
 is nccessaiy ; under the otlier form, you furnish 
 the captain and ■everything that is neces.sary to 
 work the ship— ycm take charge of the steward's 
 ilepaitinent, the purser's dejiartyient, and the 
 hands; and under the arrangement Mr. Van 
 Wart made, I .say it costs half as much, 
 almo.st double what comes from the (iovernment 
 to jiay for the use of tli.at steamer. Now, 
 that is as nearly as I can ])lace it, and if any 
 hon. gentleman wants greater .sati.sfacticm let him 
 come to the company and I will, although I am 
 only what is called the marine manager of the 
 concern, iiid not the busuiess manager of the 
 concern, give him the fullest and most ample 
 information. There is not a thing I wish to 
 conceal from any hon. gentleman. Liberal or Con- 
 servative. The whole business is perfctly open, 
 and, if neces.sary, I will show the whole expenditure 
 of tlie steamer and all relating to the business. 
 There is notliing that we want to disguise or that 
 we need to be ashamed of. At present, when 
 ocean steamers are in great demand and freights 
 are enormously high, it is absolutely necessary to 
 yield to the demands of their owners, and we 
 have to ])iit as good a steamer on the route as we 
 can get. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman must not 
 supjiose that I imagined he was ashamed of this 
 or of anything. Not at all. 
 
 Some hon. :M EMBERS. Hear, hear. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Has the hon. gentleman done 
 anything t() be ashamed of ? 
 
 Mr. FOSTER. Nothing to be sneered at. 
 
 Ml'. BLAKE. Then why sliould he l>e ashamed 
 of anything'; The hon. gentleman has told as 
 that tile charter price was t'SoO, so tliat it 
 appears the charter price was about the amount of 
 the subsidy. He says it is true there is a difference 
 between the net and the gross charter. 
 
 Mr. BAIRD. That is for the month. We only 
 get paid .*4,()(Kt per trij) and we ])ay per month in 
 advance for the steamer ; so that two months 
 have to be jiaiil for the one subsidy. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. So that according to tlie .state- 
 ment the (iovermiient pay a little more than half 
 the cost of tiie charter 
 
 Mr. WALLACE. No. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman in front of 
 me denies it ; but the hon. gentleman himsself nods 
 assent, and I prefer to accept ids statement to 
 tliat of the hon. member for West York. 
 
 Mr. WALLACE. He says about half. 
 
named 
 told as 
 that it 
 ount of 
 ffereiice 
 
 Te only 
 iiith in 
 months 
 
 state- 
 an half 
 
 ront of 
 2lf nods 
 uent to 
 
 •' ' Mr. T5LAKK. Tlic result, at'oording tt) the state- 
 ment of the hon. iliemher ff)r Queen's, is that the 
 subsidy amotmts to ohe-luilf th6 eiiarter ))i'ii;e and 
 inore, the trip not taking tihe.fuU two n^onths as, 
 I understood it '-''TJ-' "•-•■•'• ■■ - 
 
 „ Mr. BAIRl). Yes. , . . 
 
 Mr. 15LAKE. I am right in saying it does not 
 take the two full mouths, and, theiefore, liie sub- 
 sidy represents more than one-half the cost of 
 the charter. Under these circumstances, the public 
 pay more than one-half the total exjjense of 
 the charter of the vessel. So that I do not think 
 it is very wrong to suy tliat the crank is toleiably 
 well oiled. The hon. gentleman alluded to gieat 
 examples which were to Ite followed or shunned by 
 Canada. He alhultd to the marked experiences of 
 two great nations with ix'ference to the progress of 
 their marine — (Jreat Britain and the Unitt'd States ; 
 and he told us that the painful decailence of the 
 ocean marine of the ncigld>oriug Republic was due 
 to its not having observed proper rules of develop- 
 ment. I think he is (juite right in tiiat general 
 proposition, but I wholl;; dissent from him as to 
 the particular facts to wlicu lie refer.". I am old 
 enough to remember w'len the American marine 
 was strong and poWM'ful upon the .seas, and 
 strong and powerful, notwithstanding what the 
 lion, gentleman has Raided to, although, I think, 
 in a wholly mistaken sense — the English mail 
 subsidy policy, or, as he calls it, the policy of pi'o- 
 tection. Him. gentlemen who have looked at the 
 discussions in the neigliboring Republic, are fami- 
 lar with the arguments of those who have advo- 
 cated these subsidies, and what they call tlie policy 
 of protection for many years, and we know how 
 utterly exaggerated aiid fallacious their views and 
 arguments are ; but I say that the English subsidy 
 policy, such as it is, was far more extensive in earlj- 
 than in later days ; and in those early days, the 
 American marine was strong ami powerful ii])on the 
 seas, 'riiei'e was a time in wiiich ninety per cent, 
 of the American j)roducts were exported in tlieir 
 own bottoms. There have been clianges, of 
 course. They were twofold. There was, in ])art, 
 the substitution of iron for wood, and of steam for 
 sail, and in part, also, there was a change in tlie 
 fiscal policy of the Re])ublic. Those natural ad- 
 vantages which at one time the Reiniblic had, 
 when wood was the jirincipal material, became, to 
 some extent, changed and altered in favor of Eng- 
 land, as iron became a substitute for wood, and, 
 whatever advantage remained to the Repul)lic, 
 became lost by their high piotective system, which 
 rendered it i;tterly impossible for them to build 
 ships. They can only build ships for their great 
 coasting trade, because tliey forliid anyliody else 
 to compete with them in that, -because they do 
 not allow any vessel uniler a foreign register, to 
 partake of that trade. But they luiild no ships 
 lor the ocean trade, because they cannot. 1 believe 
 that, at this moment, tlie main body of the stock of 
 the Inman line is hehl in New York and elsewhere 
 on this side of the water ; but, of course, tlie ships 
 are not built in New York, but wheie they can l>e 
 best and cheapest built, that is, on the other side of 
 the Atlantic ; and though the Inman stock may be 
 owned there, as well as that of any othei' lint, yet 
 they cannot build their ownshijisand cannot icgis- 
 ter them under their own Hag. That is the condition 
 of things in the United States. Tlie arguments of 
 
 tlie hon. gentleman are, to my mind, those' of a 
 gentleman who has a very strong feeling in favor 
 of the ])oliry to which he refeis, a feeling it is 
 irapo.ssilile he should not iiave, seeing he is engaged 
 in this business, nf)t alone in tliis jiarticular enter- 
 prise but in other enterprises of this character. 
 He says tiie business is susccptibk^ of great deve- 
 lopment, anil he calls u])oii us all to hel]) it in 
 eveiy way : by surveys, by buoys, by lights, by 
 beacons, by humane and wise laws, and by . subsidies, 
 and yet more subsidies. He says his conijianj is not 
 subsidised enough as yet. I hope the 5linister of 
 Finance will remember that. 1 f e says they are not at 
 all certain that they will be able, without more sub- 
 sidy, to go on and develop the trade, and furtiier 
 the great and important mission for which they are 
 Incorporated, and in virtue of which he has joined 
 tliem, but they will tiyanil do tiieir best. He says 
 they are not made of such material — and we know 
 that, because do not we see the juincipal corpoi'ator 
 before us, the marine manager- -tliat a trifle like a 
 coral bank, into whicli the boat may run, will stop 
 tiieiii. No, but a leak in the Treasury must subsist 
 or the boat will go down. Let the Treasury leak, 
 and the boat will run, and the cori.l bank will not 
 stop them, because a vote of credi! will jiatch up 
 tiie ship, and the company will be uj) and doing. 
 I pitied the hon. gentleman for the unfortunate 
 position in which lie said in the opening of iiis 
 speech he was jilaced. It seems that in this 
 Canada of ours there was one gentleman, a mem- 
 ber of Parliament, who was not a free agent. He 
 did not go into this matter voluntarily ; he 
 did not seek it, but the company .sought him, and 
 persuaded and com))elled him. Mr. Van Wart 
 came to him and insisted on his joining the com- 
 ])any ; and so it was against his Mill, and by com- 
 ])ulsion that he joined the company and took the 
 position of marine manager. He reminded me 
 of another famous character. You recollect. Sir, 
 Mrs. Cluppins, in the famous trial of Bardell and 
 Pickwick, who, being called to testify to a con- 
 versation which she heard through a chink in the 
 door, was asked bj- the counsel: "And so you 
 were listening?" " Not at all. Sir," she rejdied, 
 "I would scorn the haction ; the woices forced 
 themselves on my ear." So it was that the hon. 
 gentleman did U' • ••>nt to join the company, but 
 was forced rud ...ipelled by Mr. VanWart into 
 the jiainful, and disadvantageous, and unprofitable 
 position he occupies to-day. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. Whatever relevance the sugges- 
 tive ])arallel of my hon. friend from Bothwell may 
 iiave as to the ])rospects of the country, I think it 
 is very clear that it is extremelj' inajiplicable to the 
 vote before the Committee, l)ecause nobody will 
 jireteiid that the oats are kejit at a notable dis- 
 tance from the horse on this occasion. Tiie Finance 
 Minister knows and takes care that these oats find 
 their way wliere they are intended to go. 1 hope 
 the digestion of the animal is improved, and that 
 111! will get more sleek under the ojieration. I have 
 no ijuarrel to make witii wliat tlie hon. member 
 for (i>ueen's, N.I!., has just said, so far as it lelates 
 to me ; on the contrary, I rather admire tiie tone 
 and spirit of his last speech, and I admire it most 
 of all because the hon. gentleman did, as I under- 
 stood him, express some regret for tliat event to 
 
which I alluded in the remarks I had made. I was 
 very glad to hear that expression of regret. It is 
 the first I have l\ear(l from the hon. gentleman, 
 and I wish to say tliat if I had known he liad 
 made such an expression of regret before, or if I 
 had heard sucli an expression from him before, I 
 would not have made the allusion I did make. Tlie 
 hon. member for Albert (Mr. Weldon) has attacked 
 me, and gone over a wide field in general terms in 
 a manner to which I do not intenil to resjiond. 1 
 intend to say oidy, that I have had a seat, with tlie 
 exception of one Session, in tiiis House since the 
 Dominion of Canada was establislied. It has been 
 my good or iny evil fortune to huxe taken a some- 
 what active part in debate during these twenty- 
 three or twenty-four years, and I never have been 
 conscious of any reluctiince on my part to meet 
 any hon. gentleman in debate in this House. It 
 has been my part from time to time and at various 
 time? to stand opj)osed in debate to hon. gentlemen 
 opposite, and to take my part, as far as I couhl, 
 with hon. gentlemen opposite, even with tlie ablest 
 and best of them. I never felt apprehensive of the 
 hon. gentleman's leaders, not from any conscious- 
 ness of peculiar powers, but because I do not con- 
 ceive that hon. members in this House stand in any 
 sucli sense as tlie hon. gentleman avers, upon an 
 inecjuality in debate. I belie\-e tiiat no man in 
 this House need be apprehensive of standing up 
 against any other man when he has lionest convic- 
 tions on any subject to which he has given his l)cst 
 attention, and is stating the conclusions to which 
 his reason and judgment liave led him. I do not 
 think any man liete, has, iluiiiig my experience 
 her,i, in dealing witli public questions, had need 
 to be afraid of meeting any other member. I 
 sliould b-! sorry to regard the position of nieiubers 
 of Parliament as difterciit from wliat I have stated. 
 I hold niy.self free to answer the observations 
 of any man at any time and under any circum- 
 
 stances, and I believe the only serious inequality 
 that subsists between one member and anotner is, 
 not that inequality which may be due to his ex- 
 perience in debate, but that inequality which sub- 
 sists as to the side he takes and the merits of the 
 arguments he addresses to tlie House. That ie the 
 difference, from my view, in the position which 
 the lion, member for Queen's (Mr. Baird) and 
 hon. gentlemen on the other side occupy in this 
 debate, and the position which hon. members on 
 this side of the House occupy. We differ in opinion 
 on that sul>ject, as the hon. member for (Jueen's 
 lias said ; and the great questions involved liave 
 been debated for a great while, and I suppose will be 
 debated for a great while longer l)efore their solu- 
 tion is reached. But there ought not to be, and 
 I repudiate for iiiy part, tlie notion that there is 
 any such inequality between any hon. member on 
 this side of the House and any otlier hon. member 
 as woidd render it unfit for any member to stand 
 up and address his observations to those of any 
 other hon. member, as would render it improper 
 for one man to stand uj) against another ; I lepudi- 
 ate the notion that we stand on such an unfortunate 
 footing as regards tlio dignity and inilependence of 
 meniliers of Parliament, as has been suggested by 
 the hon. memlier for Albert. Tlie hon. gentleman 
 has dwelt ufion some grievance whicli lie says I 
 have committed against liim — I do not know what — 
 at a very early period, and which he seems to have 
 cheri-shed even to this distant day. I cannot express 
 my apologies to the hon. member for All)ert, because 
 he has not told, and I really do not know, what the 
 offence was. If I did, I would tender to the hon. 
 gciitleinan's wounded, and apparently susceptible 
 feelings, the same apology I would have expressed 
 to him at tliat distant date, if he liad communicated 
 to me then tliis grievance which remains oven yet 
 (juite unknown to me. 
 
 Ottawa :— Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
House of Commons Bebates 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 TRANSLATORS' DEBATE & CARAQUET RAILWAY. 
 
 TIIUESDAY, 8tii MAY, 1890. 
 
 OFFICIAL DEBATES. 
 
 Mr. 15LAKE. The lum. Secretary of State has 
 delivered a iimst e<)ii\ineiiig.s))eeeli. At least it has 
 convinced lue ; hut what it has convinced me of is, 
 not that tlie salaries of the translators of Hitiitanl 
 should he increased, imt that the salaries of the 
 translators of the hlue hooks should he i'e(luced. 
 IJecause we lia\e learned from iion. gentlemen who 
 have examined into the (juestion that they are 
 satistie<l, first of all, that the salaiies of the 
 //fi»N^( (7/ translators are ade(|uate ; and, .secondly, 
 that plenty of translators can he found of tiicsanie 
 class at -the .same price. And yet the lion, the Secre- 
 tary of State alleges that they only get ahoiit one- 
 fifth of the price paiil for the translation of the hlue 
 hooks, which, he says, is a work recjuiriug nuicli 
 less skill than the translation of the Debates. 
 
 Mr. CHAl'LEAU. No. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I understand so. It seems tome, 
 therefore, while not .sending this i-e])ort hack to the 
 Connnittee, the Printing (\)mniittee, if it has any- 
 thing tr) do with the translation of the hlue liooks, 
 should, when it next meets, have some regard to 
 the speech of the lion, the Secretary of State in 
 this connection. Witli reference to the other 
 feature of the contiovei-sy, the lion, geiitleinan 
 aays these per.sons were not dismissed hecause they 
 were bad ti'anslators hut because they wore 
 traditcers. Hut they had great examples of the 
 fact that tra<lucing of this description ouglit not to 
 lead to such results. One exani])le lias been 
 (luoted, and I will refer to another. I remciiihcr 
 the language used by the late Senator Ui)llaiid, 
 when but a simple citizen, language more violent 
 than any I can recollect being used by the transla- 
 tors, antl he received his rewanl for that language, 
 which he used on the (Jhuin^i dv Mdr^, ))y being 
 elevate<l to the Senate. 
 
 Mr. CHAPLEAU. Tlie liistorical reminiscence 
 of the iioii. gentleman is wrong. Senator Holland 
 jiresided at that meeting, and he it was who 
 luevented any resolution being adopted by the 
 meeting. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. 
 
 read. 
 
 I speak of his speech which I 
 His speech was not us 
 
 Mr. CHAl'LEAU. 
 
 represented. 
 
 Mr. LAURIEB. I was there and hoard it. 
 Mr. BLAKE. My lum. friend was there with 
 his musket. 
 
 (URAQUET RAILWAY. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. I take the opjiortunity of speak- 
 ing on this matter now, a.s I think it only 
 right that the lion, member for Oloucester (Mr. 
 liurns) should hear what I have to say, before he 
 aihlresses the House in response to the remarks of 
 my lion, friend from North York (Mr. Mulock). I 
 regard this ease as a typical t;ase, illustrative of 
 the policy of the (Jovernnient in many aspects, an<l 
 as an im|)ortant case historically, for the purpose 
 for wliich liistory is mainly useful to us, namely, 
 as teaching us what to do and what to avoid. It is 
 important with reference to those lessons for us, to 
 wliich the lion, gentleman has alluded, and as 
 proving the care which ought to be taken, and 
 whidi has not licen taken, with reference to the 
 character of the enterprises which are aided by the 
 (lovernment. It is important with regard to the 
 care which ought to be taken, and which has not 
 been taken, in reference to the constructiim of subsi- 
 dised roads ; the care which ought to have been 
 taken, and which has not been taken, with reference 
 to the .solvency and the hoiii) Jiil.c character of these 
 enterprises ; the care which ought to he taken, 
 and wliich has not been taken, as to the results 
 which may accrue to us — the injurious results to 
 Canada in a tinancial and moral jioint of view — 
 with refeience to the business honesty and with 
 reference to the tinancial solvency of the schemes 
 which are undertaken. It is an important case, 
 also, with reference to the relations of members 
 of I'arliani'Mit to the Executive of the day, and to 
 the Parliament of the country. In all these re- 
 sjiccts. Sir, this is a ty])ical ca.se, which has engaged 
 my attention from an early dat<!, and to which I 
 have calletl attentioii in some aspects, although 
 
ir 
 
 8 
 
 in sniiio aspects only, in my own Province, in rcs- 
 
 Eect to which hon. gentlemen on the 'I'reiiHury 
 enchcH attacked me for the course 1 took. J 
 thereuijon deciiled that I would take the first op- 
 |M)rtuiiity which slionhl arise to ex])resH my views 
 on the door of this House, in tlic presence of the 
 (ioverninent, and in the i)resence of the lion, mciu- 
 her for (Jloucestcr (Mr. Burns). Now, Sir, the 
 Cara(|\iet Railway Company wns brought to tht' 
 attention of Parliament in the first |)lace, at the 
 close of the Session of IHH.S, uixm a ])i()|)ositiou 
 made by Sir ('iiarles Tup])cr, the then Slinister of 
 Railways, that I'arliament should grant it, in com- 
 mon witii a nuinl)er of otlier enter|)rises, the suli- 
 aidy which was then fi.xcd at the mileage rate, of 
 $.'},'2(X). The Minister of Railways then made a 
 statement, which was a little fuller, 1 imagine, 
 tlian my li(m. friend from North York tliought, 
 and which, in order that justice may be done to 
 the Minister and to the (lovernment which he re- 
 presented, I want to ])lace before the House. Sir 
 Charles Tupper tlien said : 
 
 " Then it is proposed to provide a subsidy for the Ciirn- 
 
 ?,uot Railway Company for thirty-si.x iiiile.s of railway 
 rom a point near Batliurst to Caraciuot, in New Bruns- 
 wick, not e.xoocding $.3,200 n milo, and in the whole 
 $115,200, I may say to the House that this is also another 
 DTanch of the Intercolonial Railway. During tho time 
 that the Intercolonial lliiilway was boiiiK located and 
 constructed, tho House will remember that Mr. Fleming 
 brought forward a project of reaching llio sea by con- 
 structing this branch of forty-live miles from tlielntorcolo- 
 nial Rail way down to Shippegan, and that this project was 
 viewed with very great favor by a largo portion of the 
 pross.and by a great many people in this country. ThoGov- 
 ornmentmadc a survey of the line, and found that it could 
 be constructed ata comparatively moderate expense, and 
 that there were no serious ditl'icultios in construction; 
 but it has not been proceeded with as a Government 
 work i a company, however, is organised for the purpose 
 of constructing the line from thclntercoloinal Railway to 
 tho harbor of Shippegan, where navigation is reached; 
 and they have also obtained from the Government of New 
 Brunswick, a subsidy of $;i,0(iO a mile for forty-live miles 
 from the Intercolonial Railway to Shippegan. They have 
 applied to this Government for additional aid ; and after 
 having given to the subject the most careful con- 
 sidenition, wo feel that we would bo warranted in asking 
 Parliament to provide $3,200 a milo for tliirty-six miles, 
 which is the shortest distance that will take them from 
 the Intercolonial Railway to fide water where they will 
 be able to reach navigation. This lino also runs thningh a 
 very interesting section of country that is susceptible of 
 great development, and we believe that it will afford, in 
 the same way as the Bale des Chaleurs line, to which [ 
 have already turned tlie attention of the House, means 
 for enabling the fishermen of that portion of New liriins- 
 wick to have infinitely greateradvantages than they have 
 at present and increase the value of their catch, because, 
 as in other instances, they will be able rapidly to send 
 fresh fish at a small cost by rail to the western portion of 
 Canada, and to the various markets of the United States. 
 This lino will also so develop that section of that country, 
 and so increase the receipts on the Intercolonial Railway 
 by giving us additional value of trallic, that wc believe it 
 will make an ample return to the (ioverninent for the 
 subsidy which the House is invited to give. I have no 
 doubt that if any further information isrei|uired with 
 reference to either of these lines, my hon, friends who 
 represent the line provided lor in Quebec, and my hon. 
 friend the member for Gloiirester, with relation to the 
 Carttciuet Railway, will be able to satisfy the House that 
 this isa wise and judicious appropriation of public money, 
 looked at in the light of tho commercial results which are 
 to occur in tho increased development of the country, 
 and in the incroa.scd value oftraflic over the Intercolonial 
 Railway, which has cost this country so large a sum of 
 nioniy, and which it is desirable should be rendered as 
 nsef'.d as possible to this country by nromoting tlie con- 
 struction of these subsidiary lines and branches tliat will 
 throw traffic into it." 
 
 So you see. Sir, that having made a general state- 
 ment, rose c(dore<l and not detaileil, as most of the 
 statements of that Minister we know were, laying 
 out tlic general lines of the particului' diseussicni 
 
 wliich was to f(dlow, the hon. gentleman a])pcaled, 
 and by aiitici|)ation, I'Utiiisted the <letailcd state- 
 ment which was to be made to tiie hon. member 
 for (ih)iic('ster. \V(dl, that hon. gi^ntlcman began, 
 as my lion, friend from Nortli Y(n-k (Mr. Miilock) 
 said, liy reading a report of iin earlier date, by 
 Mr. Sandford Fleming, in wliich he detailed the 
 glories and iidvaiilagcs of the liarbor of Shi])pegan, 
 and the jirobable result bas(^d on mileage distances, 
 and on sundry calcidations, which, after all, have 
 very little to do, indeed, witli the complicated (|ues- 
 tirjiis wliich ai'c involved in the success of an ocean 
 I iininus, and a combined hind and water commuui- 
 eatioi). I say, reading soiiii! of these calculations 
 with great unctiiui, tiie lion, gentleman jiointed out 
 that this was, after all, the short route to Eurojie - 
 that it was through the great ])ort and cntrejiot of 
 Shij)|iegan that the commerce and oceanic travel of 
 thiscounti'v were to How in thefuture. Nor,Sir,liavu 
 we been altogether without ministerial wariiint for 
 .so ecnisiilering the |)ort of Shippegan, for I well 
 renu^iuber when the tlien Minister of Railways, in 
 his annual ovations on tlie subject of the Canadian 
 Pacific Railway, ap])roached the sidiject of tho 
 traus-continental connections, iind wlien, to avoid 
 any undue rivalry, he used to hurl at the head of tho 
 House the names of half-a-dozen or more ditlercnt 
 Atlantic ports wliicli were to be the terminal jiorts 
 on the Athintie, the name of Shippegan was to bo 
 found in the long roll of Atlantic jiorts. Then, Sir, 
 tlie hon. nieuiber for (llouccstcr, summing up the 
 results of that part of hi.s case, said : 
 
 " The railway will in the future, at all events, be of in- 
 calculable benefit to the Dominion at large." 
 
 That was the general statement of the liou. 
 gentleman ; anil I think on this occasion I must 
 admit anil it is doing him high honor — that lie 
 " went one better " than his |iredeeessor, the Min- 
 ister of Railways, thegieatest master of trojies that 
 I know of. Then the hon. gentleman proceeded 
 to deal with what, after all, might be sup[)osed to 
 be more within the grasp of an oi dinary member 
 like myself. He said : 
 
 " But, Sir, the scheme is not put forward on that ground 
 alone ; it is put forward, perhaps with even greater force 
 on (ilher grounds, and that is, the imniense trade the road 
 would develop and would tend to l)iiild lip, not only ill 
 that particular locality, but over the Dominion as a whole. 
 By the const ruelion of that road an enormous trade " 
 
 It was an immense traile a moment ago ; it is 
 eiun'uioiis now, — 
 
 — " an enormous trade wcnild lie given to the Intcreo- 
 hmial Railway ; as a feeder of the Intercolonial R^iilway 
 it is not seciMid in inipiuMaiice to any other road, and be- 
 cause itisafeeder of the Intercolonial Railway, [ assumo 
 that my hon. friend opposite can have no objection to it. 
 As L nndersfanil him, he is in favor of any road that will 
 feed the Iiilcrcidonial Railway. To give an idea of tho 
 aiiKuint of triide done along that road, and of the popula- 
 tion interested in it, 1 in.iy inform the House that bo- 
 tweeii the iiciinl where it is proposed to connect the Inter- 
 colonial Railway and the terniinus of Carai|uct or Ship- 
 pegan, a, distance of forty-five miles, tliere is a popu- 
 lation of 18,000 scails. The whole eonntry, from end to 
 end of the proposed ro.ad, is settled. Tlio value of tho 
 products of iha f sect ion id' thcecninlry during the past year 
 amounted to some j;l,O0O,00O, made ui> as follows : Lum- 
 ber, S3IJ0,fK)0 " 
 
 Who was tlie lumbei'er? — 
 
 — "fish, eoinprising canned goods, codfish, salmon, her- 
 ring, mackerel and oysters, >;"i(KI,000 ; grindstones, $")0,- 
 000; farm produce, >;1.')0,0(K). There are a number of other 
 industries which would contrilaife togivo the road a largo 
 trade, and all of which would find its way to tho Inter- 
 colonial Railway. To the West this road will be a. great 
 benefit, inasmuch as if will all'ind the people an ojipor- 
 tunify, which is now denied Ibeni, of getting their fisli in 
 afresh condition, and they will have a larger market for 
 
3 
 
 tlioir product?, IIS w<ill iih tliu Kiist ii liirm^r market lor 
 tlieirn." 
 
 Ciiii you il()iil)t tliiit iiftoi' tlioHi^ statmui'iilM tlio 
 Opposition was (liiinlt'; Of coiirsi', as liaiipciicil 
 l)t'fore, as lias ha])p(iu'(l ovi'i' sinci;, as is liappt'iiinj^ 
 today nay, not to-day to-morrow, to use the 
 lion, gentleman's favorite word, at the (earliest — 
 tlnee weei\s aftei' the noiiiinl termination of the 
 Session, w(! are not placed in a ])i)sitioii to consider 
 l)roperly the roS(veolored statements maile w ith lef- 
 crene(! to ))roposed railway grants. We had then 
 no o|)poitunity of checking those ligures, discount- 
 ing those tro]ies, dissecting those Mowers of rheto- 
 ric and ligures of speei'h w ith which the Minister 
 of Railways and the lion, meniher for (iloiicester 
 overwhehued us ; and .so the vote was ])assed for 
 those ;i(l miles which were represinited as necessary 
 to reacli the coast hy the shortest route ; and to 
 ensure these great advantages .si l,">,'2(l(t was voted. 
 Iiut, Sir, you know, the way ])olitie jieojile do tlusse 
 things is not toalaiin at lirst. They ask for a little ; 
 they make a Ix^ginniug ; they do not ])ut the blunt 
 edge of the weilge to the tind)er and hammel' on the 
 thin edges hut they ])ut the thin edge in, anil give the 
 weilgeagentle tap,and \\ hen tile timher is wello))en- 
 od, they insert another wedge a little further. And 
 so, witli I'egai'd to this enter]irise, we were .seduced 
 hy the statement that ."<! l."'),'2(M) would give us all 
 these grand advantages to wliiiii 1 have i-eferred ; 
 and, for my part, ! frankly confess to you, taking 
 them at theii' word nay, giving that apjuopriate 
 di.soouiit wiiich one ought to allow in valuing the 
 statement of a Minister and the statement of an 
 inteiested repre.sentati\e I did tiiiiik the road 
 was chea]) at the money that the grant was very 
 small for those great advantages. Well, a year 
 Jiassed, and the happy time nriived for those who 
 had heen exjiecting their fortiiiu^ in railway sub- 
 sidies in the Se.ssion of IH.St; it came on (he lOth 
 of April in that yeai', Mhen the same Minister was 
 called upon to deal with the <piestioii of furtlu^r 
 silhsidie-s to railway.s, and what did he .say? Sir 
 Charles 'I'upper said this : 
 
 _" Then, Sir, lit tlio lll^it ,'>c?'si(in nf this iriinse, wo pri)- 
 viiloil Inr a lino nl' niilwiiy Iniiii the Inlorcdhmial It.-iil- 
 way to Cani<(iiof, and it litis licoii fniMid, as in tlio otlior 
 eii.«o.<i adverted to, tliat the lino was tim slicirt In oiiiible 
 tlio parties to iiiake the nece.s.^ary linanciiil arraiige- 
 inciits." 
 
 Too short, .Mr. Speaker 1 I have always thought 
 that for a great through line of railway, the shorter 
 your line the more likely you would he to succeed ; 
 but it seems that the line was too short : 
 
 "It is now propn.-ed to ii.'^k llio House to extend the 
 .'iibsidy granted hist Sossion tor twonly-l'iuir iiiik's I'urllior, 
 Ironi Ciira(|UO( to Sliiiipogan Jlarhor, tliiis iniikiiiB that 
 short lino of oiininiiinioiitioii to wliioli great iiiiportiiiuM? 
 was at one time iittiielied, I know, hy tliis (loveriinioiit, 
 and I believe also by my lion, friend oppcisito, from the 
 Intercolonial Railway to the harbor of 8nippogaii." 
 
 So you see we begun by making .' grant for .'{(i miles, 
 and then it is proposed, on tlie ground that the 
 railway is too sliort, to go "24 miles further, and 
 so obtain the further inestimable juivilege of access 
 to the port of .Shijipegaii. 
 
 " And I am iiif<triioted " 
 
 Says the lion, gentleman, who on this occasion 
 took instrnction.s — 
 
 — "by my hon. friend the mi'iiiher for (ilnucestcr (Mr 
 Hurns), that the iippropriiition of $,'),2lill a mile for the 
 additional 24 miles will ennble liim to sociiro tlie prompt 
 oonslruotion of the 40 miles between the Inteivoloiiial 
 Kjiilway and Sliiiipogan, fiirnisbing, iis I have said, a 
 most vaUiablu feeder to the Intercolonial Ituilnay." 
 
 Well, a little discussion arose on that occasion. 
 The l'"ii'st Minister jiroceeded to di.scu.ss, upon the 
 same ilay, to some extent, the general jioliey and 
 its propriety as apjilicable to the case in hand. 
 He said : 
 
 " The present policy has boon already explained by 
 my colloagne. There are very many tracts in tln^ country 
 wliieli wiaild be very much aided and developed by 
 rea.soiiable a.ssisliinee. The people nay " 
 
 Tlu^ )ieo|)le, mark you. — - 
 
 " The jieoplo say ; We would like to have a railway, but 
 we oiiniiot start it; wo have not capital enough ; we 
 cannot interest capitalists in oar line ; our municipiilities 
 are not rich eiiiMigli to commence tliesc lines, and, tliere- 
 foro, we must do witbout tliom. So that, if a tract of 
 country is really eligible for a railway, which is likely to 
 be iillimiitely a comuiorcial success, the (iovernmont are 
 encomaging the peojilo by giving them a subsidy of 
 s;3,2()(l a mile, and it there is anything in the schemo 
 the people will iindortako it. They will go to the munici- 
 piilities along the line of railway, get the stock lists up, 
 and start a real basis to work upon. Thus, without over- 
 biirdoning the Dominion Treasury, you will have a 
 niiinbor of really good schemes, hiivinj? some real nierits 
 in thoinsolvos started. As my hon. friend 1ms said, that 
 is a good test whollier a railwiiy scheme has any real 
 merit. Parliament grants a subsidy of $3.200 a mile for a 
 particailar line ; if it lias any real merit the road will ho 
 established, jind, if it has no merit, it must, to bo built, 
 throw itselt tiinm the public treasury altogether, and 
 then " 
 
 \\ hat do you think ? ' 
 
 " It will never be built." 
 The Oxford and New ( ilasgow, the (Jreat European 
 and American Short Line, and other enterprises, 
 s|)eak in trumpet tones to ])rove the truth of 
 tile hon. geiitleniairs statement. Subsidies were 
 granted those lines ; assistance was given to them ; 
 lint the test, which the hon. gentleman suggests, 
 of real merit bein^, aiiplied to them, they could 
 not get on. The ri^ad, not having any real merit, 
 was not established, and in ord(!r to be built: 
 
 " It must, if it lin? no merit, throwit.self upon the public 
 treasury ultogether." 
 
 It had no merit ; it did throw itself ujion the 
 public treasury ; and then — I niiist alter the words 
 ill tile record, and instead of saying, "it never 
 will be built," say : " it will be built accordingly." 
 That is what history tells us. We are building 
 these roads out of the treasury to-day. A little 
 further, in the course of the .same discussion, when 
 the vote came u]> for the extension of the line 
 of railway from ("ara(|iiet to Sliippegan, N. B., 
 — a subsidy not exciieding !$.'}, 'ioi) a mile, nor 
 exceeding in the whole JSTO.StK) — which was the 
 .second iiistalnient. Sir Charles 'I'upper said : 
 
 " I propose to amend ihis resolution, so that it shall 
 road ; To the Caraquet Railway Company, for the extension 
 of the railway from t'liraquet to Sbipjiogaii Harbor, which 
 makes a distiinco iif 6tl miles. A company has been 
 already organised for the construction of tlii! work, and 
 this is to I'liahle them to cover tlio entire distance from 
 the Intercolonial Railway to .Shiiipegan Harbor." 
 
 I ask the attention of the Hou.se to that state- 
 ment, for a reason which wil' nresontly appear. 
 We get into Sliippegan Harbor, we have the 
 statement of the Minister that (iO miles will 
 cover the entire distance from tiie Intercolonial 
 Railway to Sliip]iegan Harbor, and that the 
 vote proposed would enable the comjiany to cover 
 that entire distance ; and once again we grant a 
 subsidy, and an inereasetl subsidy. Would you 
 not imagine, .Sir, that we had got to the end '! We 
 began with 'M't niih^s, which was to give us all 
 these advantjiges. Then the road was too short to 
 be built, so we had to add '24 miles, and we are 
 
tol.l this is to 1)0 the end. lUit in ISHCi tlu^ preHent 
 First MiniHtor, beinjj tlien in clmrge of the huwinesx, 
 had occasion to ))ring uj) the ('ai'ai|uet Railway 
 Company again, anil ))eing asked for some exphin- 
 ation, gave the explanation I am alxiut to read. I 
 congratulate the hon. Mini.ster and the country at 
 large that there was one session the session of 
 1885 — in which the Caracjuet Railway did not 
 turn up. In ISS.S it was to the fore ; in 1884 it 
 came to the fore ; in 188.") the hon. mend)er for 
 (iloucester (Mr. Uurns) was, hai)pily for us, dund), 
 perhaps sucking the sweets already securc^d ; l)Ut 
 ni 1H8() ho was hack again milking tlie cow. 'i"he 
 First Ministoi' thou said : 
 
 "Sir .TORN A. 
 Kroinid." 
 
 MACDONALD. I do not know Iho 
 
 "That railway is de.^tinoil to leave the Iiitcreoloninl 
 Railway at Hathurst, and run in a north-westerly direc- 
 tion to Slniipogan, Sixty luilcs have already been subsi- 
 dised " 
 
 Now, we knew all that before, and we thought we 
 had certainly got to the end of it. — 
 
 — " and tbo present subsidy is to extend the road to 
 Shippcgan " 
 
 This is a conundrum of which I did not find out 
 the meaning for some years, and tlie meaning of 
 which I will tell you. Sir, ])rcsently. Sixty ndlos 
 brought us to .Shippcgan as long ago as 1884, but, 
 in 1886— 
 
 — "the present subsidy is to extend the road to Shippcgan, 
 which is favoriibly mentioned by Mr. Pleniiiig in his 
 report of tlie const ruction of the Intercolonial Huilway, 
 as a deep harbor." 
 
 He recommended it as — 
 " being the stcpping-oflf place to Europe." 
 Tlicre was the hon. First Minister's statement that 
 we now wanted 10 miles moio to get to .Shij)pcgan 
 Harbor from tlie Inteicolonial Railway. First, it 
 was 3(5 miles to ('arai|uet ; then '24 miles more 
 were to bring us i-ight on to Slii|)pegan ; and then 
 a further 10 miles — how many miles more shall wo 
 have to subsidise to got to the same ]ioint, I wonder? 
 It being six o'clock, the .Speaker»left the Chair. 
 
 Aft.er Recess. 
 
 COPYRKJHT ACT. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Rcfore the debate is pro- 
 ceeded with, I desiie to say that I see it stated in 
 the Empire that the Canadian Copyright Act is to 
 be allowed by the Imjiorial (lovoniment. I would 
 ask the First Minister if he has i-ny information 
 in regard to that matter. 
 
 Sir JOHN A. M.ACDONALD. We have no 
 otticial information ; we have only seen the state- 
 ment in the papers. 
 
 THE CARAQUET RAILWAY. 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. When the House adjourned, I 
 had just read the observations of the First Minis- 
 ter on the proposed additional ten mile grant of 
 1886, and I had jiointed out tlie circumstance that 
 this extension or oxpansiou luid taken place with- 
 out any explaiuition. Ujion that subject I made 
 an enquiry, being puzzled as to how the land lay 
 and as to how the railway lay, in those terms : 
 
 " The prior grant was to a point called Lower Caraquot. 
 I do not observe this to be mentioned at; all. The first 
 grant was to Caraquot, and tlien to SliippcKiin Harbor, 
 and this grunt is from Lower Caraipiet, which is pre- 
 sumably the termination of the present sul)sidised por- 
 tion. I do not know the ground, but perliaps tlie bw. 
 gentleman does. 
 
 So neitiier of us know anything about it. It was 
 not my business to know the ground, liut it was 
 the business of the lion, gentlomaii, as be was iiro- 
 |)<)sing the additional ton-mile grant. Not liuding 
 anything alioiit the lay of the land, i thought I 
 might find sonu'thing about the company, and so I 
 asked : 
 
 "Can the hon. gentleman tell me sninetbing about the 
 names? A person named IbiriiH is tlie owner of eleven 
 out of the twelve shares of the stock of the company, and 
 the application is made by liini. lias be any connection 
 with the member for (iloucester? 
 
 " Sir .JOHN A. MACDONALD. It is the bon. member 
 himself, and, if the bon. gentleman ciii|iiires, lie will tiiid 
 that it is due very largely to the enterprise of Mr. Uurns 
 tliiit this very important road is built, lie has llirown 
 liimsolf into it with enthusiasm, and without that en- 
 thusiasm the road would not have got so far. 
 
 " Mr. BLAKE. I am glad the hon. gentleman has 
 exhibited so much cntliusiasni. Why should be not, when 
 be owns eleven-twelftbs of the enterprise? If that 
 amount should not give him enthusiasm, I do not know 
 what the bon. gentleman could be entliusiastic about. 
 
 " Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD. His enthusiasm was 
 manifested liy his becoming the owner." 
 
 Well, so much pass'/d in 188(i, at whic'i tinu; 
 wo find the Caraijuet Railway to have uncoiled, 
 like some groat serpent, and to have expanded 
 itself to tlic length of aliout 70 miles between ( 'ara- 
 (juetund Shippcgan. I have now to ooon a now scene 
 in the draimi, because, in 1887, on the 'J.Srd Juno, a 
 ])roposition was made to substitute seven miles for 
 the last ton miles of that road. The road which hud 
 grown so muoli, which had grown so poitontously, 
 was shrinking now, and it was to be cut down to 67 
 miles instead of tlio 70 — but not so with the sulisidy. 
 The subsidy was to stand for the 70 miles, tliougli 
 the road was to bo cut down to 67 miles. Tlie 
 proposition of that date was to continue to subsi- 
 dise the last hypothetical ton miles at .S.S-^tKK), 
 tliough only seven miles wore to be constructed. 
 Not all the contrivances of tlie hon. member for 
 (ih)ucoster, to which I shall sul)sci|Uently call iit- 
 tention, could stretch that road to 70 niilos, but st'ill 
 it was to have the subsidy granted for 70 miles. 
 The late Mr. Rope, then Minister of Railways, 
 said, on this occasion of 1887, that this was a 
 very important road and connecting with a very 
 important jioint on the Ray. My hon. friend 
 from Dxford (Sir Richard ('artwright) and my 
 hon. friend from Northumberland (Mr. Mitchell) 
 pointed out that the pioposal was [)ractically 
 almost doubling up the subsidy ; in fact, that it 
 amounted to .'?4,r)70 a mile instead of §3,'200 a 
 mile, but no exjilanation wliatever was vouchsafed 
 in regard to that. The same thing has beou done 
 elsewhere. I admit that tiie hon. membci' for 
 (Uouoester (Mr. Burns) is not unique in this respect. 
 There are other cases where persons have asked 
 for a subsidy of .'if!.S,200 a mile for a greater length 
 of road than they constructed, and (Jovormnent 
 have afterwards come hero and said to Parliament : 
 You voted that S3, 200 a mile ; it is true that the 
 railway is not more than two-thirds of the loiigth ; 
 still, you were willing to give .§32,0«K), when you 
 thought you were getting ton miles, and you may as 
 well give the same amount for tiie short length as 
 for the long length. That is what was done in this 
 ease. I believe that a mystery which has remained 
 undeveloped so far may find some solution here. 
 We have been trying to discover where Shippcgan 
 
is. Wii Uiu>w tluvt it iH Sdnicwhero in tlioflulf, wo 
 know that it \h an inijjortant tcrniinuH, w(! kri'iw 
 that it in oni' of tlic tciiniiii iiiippoNcd for the ooeaii 
 HteaniNhipH. My opinion in tiiat the faiinre <»1 tiin 
 lu^gotiationH will) thr Anchi.ions in ri'j,'ai'(l to thi; 
 new mail lino must \n'. owini,' to tint insistan.'i.' 
 of thu (Jovfinmcnt that they Hhoiild inchiili^ Shi|) 
 IK'gan amonj,' the poiiitw at which (iicirfa.sl sti'Hnuii'.s 
 were to call. It will lie oli.survcil that, in the ilc- 
 liateof I.SSli, [ pointed delicately totiiefact that the 
 hon. mendiiM' foe ( lionccster (Mi. Hums) wa.s the 
 owner of at leant eleven-twelfth.s of the (V.rainu^t 
 enteiprise, and upon that (x^ea.sion tlu; Kir'.st Min- 
 ister pointed out the nuMitoriouH eiiaracter of the 
 attitudes of the hon. uiendKir for ( lloueiHtcr in that 
 regard, and stated and I eonlially agr(!e with 
 him in that respect that, hut foi- the cnthusiasu), 
 as he called it, of the hon. mendier foi' (iloiU'ester, 
 the lailway would not have got so fur as it had. 
 Dining the electoral iMm|)aign of lHS()-7, I (jiuited, 
 an<l I admit not infrei|uently, the facts which 1 have 
 nairatcd here to-day. I stated these facts, and 
 I used the nu'inher for (lloucestei- as a shocking 
 example. On various platfoiriis I jn'Mited out the 
 uii'cumstances wiiicli, I corrceived, r'eri..ered it incon- 
 sistent with the indepi'udence of a rrremlicr- of Par 
 liairrcnt that he should occupy ti.e le lion to the 
 company and to the i'Aecutive whi. c. he did in 
 connect ion with this railway. For' that coui'.se I 
 was the recipient of a very .scvi're rcliiike, iray, 
 of two very severe rehukcs fr-om a ])air' of Min 
 isters who were perarrdiulatiirg Ontario irpon tiie 
 occasioir of the carirpaign. At London the l''ir:st 
 Minister- .said this : 
 
 " Mr. lilake said in his spfioch at Ottnwn the other day, 
 willi ri'speol to the .^y.-itcm of gi'aiitiiis lionir.«e3 to rail- 
 w.iys : 
 
 " What wc wanted to show wa.s the rchrtion which ex- 
 isted lielween the iiicrrdicrs ol' I'arliaiiieiil and (lie lOxeuii- 
 tive, wliicli iircvciilcd the luriiicr tVorii iiiiU'iicndeiitly 
 (^xercisiii); tlieir duty ill I'arlianu'iit. Mow iinild a riiern- 
 her of Parliament lie sniiiiosed to vote consriontiuiisly iiii 
 a(|ueslion when he knew that the nienioiial for his rail- 
 way sulisidy wa.s in the Minister'.'-' oHice, and its hoiiiit 
 t?r"iiiled depended mion whi'tlier that vote was yea or 
 rniy Y It was not in human nature to do otlierwise when 
 liusiiiess was heinj/ eondiieted in this way. The inthienee 
 of parly was sli-oiiK. The dilliciillies of a, man sepai'atiiiB 
 hiriiseli'fiom his i>art> — more especially when that party 
 was in power — werotiiany; and if the inlhienees of the 
 K.xceiitive were added to these, and the relations the 
 metnher lieai's to both, the greater lieeome the barriers in 
 the way. Why! the member's vote is in the Minister's 
 pocket." 
 
 Ami tiro hon. gentlenran went on to say : 
 
 " So Mr'. DIake was of opinion that no subsidy should 
 be given to any r'liilway in any part of Canada if a mein- 
 ber or his eoiistitueney was in any way inlei'esKMl in it. 
 IIow could a member be iiidepiMidont, said he, if a rail- 
 way going through the coustitneiicy was before the (jov 
 criiment or before I'arliaruent'^ " 
 
 Vou will observe that the Iron, gcntlcmarr adopted 
 that irrethod of aigunrcnt wliieli wi^ have hear'd so 
 often fr'oni him for' these many years, and with which 
 wc are (]uite familiar' he niisa|)prehcndcd, 1 will 
 say, the jioint, andmi.sa|)i)relrerrdiirgil. of course, ho 
 misstated it. He alleged hero that 1 objected to a 
 irrember of I'arlianierrt advocating the iirtcuest of 
 Iris constituency in refeience to a I'ailway. I 
 objected to nothing of the kind. I objected to a 
 mornbei' of I'arlianierrt ])Utting hinrself in such a 
 jrositiorr that his pecirrriaiy inteiost conflicted with 
 Iris iiublio duty. The hon. gentleman went on : 
 
 " Why, gentlemen, the iirineiple in Knglaiid and in 
 Canada, is very iiliiin. No memjier of I'arliairient can 
 vote on any measure in which be is iier'sonally intei'csted, 
 
 and if lii^ h not iicrsonally interested it ishisdiity.gnntlo- 
 meri, to do all he can for his constituents. (Hear, hear, 
 and cheers.) Whv, according to Mr. Itlako's interpretiv- 
 tioii of the duty of n member of Parliament, yoiir good 
 member, Mr. ( arling, would be guilty of ii dereliction of 
 dirty, if lie had f<iiiKlit for the railway going tliroiigh hero 
 westward, and so with all nu'iiihers id' I'arliiirnent. ' 
 
 This, .Sir, was iirr irnfortunate allusiorr ; for iruiny 
 iir tirat airdiorrco must liav(^ rcnrorrrhered with 
 shame, that it had la^ori discovered that the jire- 
 serrl Minister' of .\giiciilturo, to wlrorrr the Iron, 
 gentlenran was r'eferrirrg, had, while retaining the 
 oiitwar'd ap]iear'arice of disirrter'ested inde])endenee, 
 enter'ed into a private baigaiir in eoirnectioii w ith 
 the first, the AUarr, Canadiarr I'acitic contiaet, irn- 
 dei' whicii he secur'cd to hirrrstdf a half share in tlr(! 
 interest of the late .Major' Walker, orrc of the dii'(^c- 
 toi's ami chief sirbscribeis, with whoirr Mr'. Carlirrg 
 was a secr'cit partner ; and tlirrs liecame jrorsoiially 
 iirtcr'csted irr securing corrtr'act terms tiro most 
 faMirable to the ('orn))arry, ami the least favoi'ablu 
 to the corrni ly ho was ]ii'ofe.ssing to surve. Tiro 
 horr. gt:ntleiiiari coirtiirirod : 
 
 " Tf this doctrine be true, no member of Parliament can 
 light for any r'liilwny wlii(di directly or indirectly benelits 
 him or his constiliieiicy. 1 ilonot believe in that doi^triirc. 
 I believe the people send members to Parliatnciit to do tiro 
 best they can for their eonstiliients, iilid the more ho 
 works for his coiistitiieiiey the better. To show you liow_ 
 unjust these cliarijcs made against, some mcmber.s of 
 Parliament are, I will give you uno instance. There is 
 
 Mr. Patrick Hums " 
 
 It was irot I'ati'ick ; but he wasspcakirrg largely to 
 an Ir'isli audierrce, ami he thoirgirt he rrright thus 
 iirsiirirate that the menrber' for' ( Jloircestei' was an 
 liishniari. His name is Ki^nnedy, irot I'ati'ick. 
 
 " There is Mr. Patrick Ihiriis, the member for Gloiiocs- 
 tor, in the I'rovirice of New Jiruiiswick. He is a Koriran 
 Catholic Bcntleiuan " 
 
 I'liereforo, of course, ho is a I'addy ! — 
 
 "He is a Koinan Catholic genlleman, coming from 
 Ireland, and be has, by hard woi'kand good cliaracterand 
 great ability, made a considerable fortune. He was 
 an.xioiis to assist his constituents ; he was anxious that a 
 railway should be built— the Caiaiiiict Kailwaj — to the 
 sea. He found that nobody would come forward— hecausu 
 railway enterprises have not been in'olUable in t'anada — 
 and out of public spirit he put his hands in his own pocket 
 and spent liisown money, and after doing so, so far as 
 lirudeiicc \V(Hild allow, be came to Purlianient in order to 
 get iissistiince. We lind only to C'lnsiiler whellicr it was 
 a good road, one for the advantage to tire country, or not. 
 We found it was to the advantage of the country, and wo 
 gave the road a grant, and Mr. liliike attacked him by 
 name, charging him with corruption, because he held the 
 stock of that road, when nobody else would come forward 
 to his a.«sistance. I said, when the matter was biought 
 up, that he deserved great credit for his public spirit and 
 for liaving put his money into the enterprise. Why, his 
 indepcnderico was not gone, beciiuse he was already ii 
 Conservative ot the strongest type, elected to support the 
 tiovcrnnient (hear, hear and <dieers) ; and it was certain 
 he would support the (iovernmenl whether be got the 
 money or riot. AVe were only loo glml to iissist Mr. Hiirna 
 in his patriotic etl'orts, by giving it a rcasonablu grant to 
 help him to buihl the road." 
 
 Therr the lion. Minister of Justice followed in the 
 same straiir. 
 
 Mr. LANDERKIN./ Did ho call him Patrick, 
 too V 
 
 Mr. BLAKK. Oh, no; I do not think his 
 dignity woirld have permitted him toilo that. It is 
 only the First Minister' who can atl'oi'il to iinb('rrd 
 in that way. Says the Minister' of .lustico : 
 
 " We have the policy of slander in tlic Province of 
 Ontario. The men who represent you, you are told from 
 platlorm to platform, have been soiling their hands with 
 public treasure. 1 observe that in thespeechcs delivered 
 inttrrtario that matter is not so lavishly handled as it 
 u.sed to be, and special prominence is given to members 
 
 I. 
 
e 
 
 I 
 
 livinK in tliP mnni diflljiiit ixirtiims of lliii Diitiiiiiiiin, For 
 
 II tillKI H )<lll WHH lllllllll upon (io7,l'IIH cjf IID'HiImTH of tllO 
 
 lloiiii*! ot'CoiiiiiioiiH, who, oiKt iitirr iiiiotlii'i'iciiiiir forwiird 
 mill, Willi iiiiiMt coiiclilvivu uvi'li'iit'(M<liiiwi'il IIiomi'i'Iiiukch 
 to liu I'iiIhv. (dlicdi'M.) liiitiily it liiiM Kiiili'il llio iiolicy III' 
 Mr. llliiko, iiM Sir Joliii A. Muriliiiuilil Iiiih lolif you, to 
 huli'ct lor II victim a Kcntli^iuan wlm in not ho wi^II known 
 us II ri'iirosiMitativi: in (Inhirio ; a icimiIU'Iuiiii who coniua 
 from llni I'rovinru down l»y tho hch. 'I'lio rani' of Mr. | 
 lliiriiH liiiM lirmi n'lx'atril from pialforiu to platform a.4 if 
 ho wiTu tho iiiiiBt iibunilont'il wretch who «vur ilisunicrd a 1 
 I'arliamoiit in any country. Let nio tell you lliiit Mr. 
 HiiriiH is a man of the liiKlifsl I'liaractcr — a man who. it ! 
 Mr. Ilhikc had trii limcH Iho conraiti' lie pos.-iriisi'M, ho 
 would not iliiri' to assail in his own I'rovinci) (clicrrs) ; 
 hut it siiilH, pirliaps, the niomcnl, to tilanilor a man like 
 Mr. Hums in places where he is not so well known lis in the 
 Maritime Provinces. Withonf ri'peatim,' the statement 
 of Sir iloliii A. Macdonald, 1 may he allowed to repent 
 some (if tho points of the case, to show you how extrava- 
 gant was the course piirsueil hy our opponents in that 
 guiitlcman's case ; to vliow you how stron)r the lanpiinuo 
 was that was used respecliiiK Mr. liurns. It was simiily 
 the case of a memlier of I'arliaincnt ilesiriiiK to iilitiiin tin! 
 coii«triiction of a riiilwny lor the pco|ile he represented. 
 They are people thrifty, economical iind not noted tor 
 cnlvrprise, but have a rensonalili! iind stroni; cliiim njioii 
 tlio (iovernment to Kive tliciii a piililie work like tliiil to 
 uncouriiKc their induHtrics. (Cliccrs.) Mr. liurnsfclt that 
 his duty as a reiiresenlative of the people, and iMdntt one 
 of thiMii, waH to put his hand inlii his own pix^ket and con- 
 trihuto to the lull extent he was alilc. (Hear, hear.) 
 Having done this, a conlrihntion which no miin of coni- 
 liion sense would expect to tret a profit from, ami wliiidi 
 was iiiiidc entirely lait of sympathy for the people' he re- 
 presented, he ciimo to Parliament and said ; ' \Ve have 
 done all that men can he cxpecled to do, will yiui deiil 
 with us as you have deiilt willi railways in Ontario, (Que- 
 bec and Nova Scotia?' and we said in honesty to the 
 people lio reiiresented : ' We will jtive you the ordiniiiy 
 Bubsidy to railways of that kind.' Tliis is known to 
 everybody in Parlniment, and yet Mr. Jiiirns' conduct 
 has been miidc the sulijcct of reproach. Mr. lilakc has 
 staled on platform after plalfoiiii in Ontario lliiit Mr. 
 Jiiirns was 11 corrupt representative, Iicciium' he had re- 
 ceived eleven out of every twelve dollars (;iven to Ihiit 
 enterprise, lie received not one dolliir. (Ohecrs.) The 
 inoiicy that tho Homiiiioii of Ciiniida contributed to ihiil 
 enterprise went into the work for the purpose of lilli^^ll- 
 \nii it, and wont where Mr. liurns' money had none. 
 Yet anybody rciidiiiK that slatemeiit of Air. filiikc, would 
 presume that the money which wiu: Kriinted by the Itoini- 
 nioii (lovernmcnt towards the riiilwiiy was Iniiisl'crn'd to 
 the pocket of Mr. liurns. That was ii statement which 
 nobody would dare to make in the Province where the 
 work is ill progress, and yet it is uiiidc to do duty iinioni; 
 the intelligent people of (Ontario. They most .strongly 
 realise that we people down by the sen are strangers to 
 you people in Ontario, and unable to sjieak in our own 
 defence, or to look you in the face, and when ourcoiinl ry 
 is sliiiidered arc unable to speak U|i in defence, lint, 
 thank ({oodiioss, we are able to stand up in delence of 
 our nation, our Province and our men, and that, too, in 
 the Province of Ontario, before the people before whom 
 we have been slandered. (Clieers.) Then, sir, the policy 
 (d' slander is the policy for Ontario." 
 
 Well, the Minister of Justice, with wlmt 1 should 
 have licc'ii disposed to call .sopliistiy, declared that 
 I liad said, or used language from which it iniglit 
 have lieen inferred, that tlii.s money went directly 
 into Mr. Hums' pocket. I cannot conceive liow 
 any fair leader or hearer of anything I said cotdd 
 have supijosed such a thing for a moment. Tiie 
 statement made throughout was that Mr. Ihirns 
 was the owner of eleven-twelfths of the enterprise, 
 and was, tlierefore, interested in eleven-twelfths of 
 the sulisidies and aid which made the enterprise 
 valuable. Hut you will see presently how far and 
 how hing they remainedout of thememher'spocket. 
 In substance it wan hardly in trutli the com- 
 pany that was .subsidised, because tiie lion, gc^ntlc- 
 uian was tlie com])any, lie was a corpoiate Hurns ; 
 tiiere was butone-twelftii in other names, of whicli, 
 if inj' information is correct, a [lortion belonged to 
 himself. Hut at any rate he reiiresented and owned 
 eleven-twelfths of the sulisidies of the c<impany. 
 
 and the corporate liurns received, oven if we iiUnw 
 that lliric was an alien interest of onelweli'lh, 
 out of the subsidy a very large sum. There were 
 .'!!i'2'-'4,IHIII of a |)omiiiiiin subsidy, of which his 
 eleven twi'lfllis would lie #'_'(l."i,tMM(. 'I'lii'ie was ti 
 New liriinswick subsidy of about .^IHd.OIH), of 
 which Ids sliiire \\'ould be >:lliri,(HIO, making n 
 total for I lie corporate iiuins fniiii both (iov- 
 ermiients of .'<;170,<KM(. As to the New liriinswiek 
 subsidy it was simply an element in the linanc- 
 ing of the road, and in regard to this jiarticular 
 pint of the tlalisaction, in which I am dealing 
 with the lion, gentleman's relations to the Kxecii- 
 tive iind to this Parliament, it is not material, 
 iiiit being thus iiilerested in the road, being, in 
 fact, the coiiipaiiy, and, in fact, the road, the lion, 
 gentleman was kept on tenterhooks for three or 
 four years. He was doled out soiiii'thing in IH.S.'J, 
 lie was doled out something liioic in IMS4, hv was 
 doled out siiniething more in ISSti, and he was 
 doled out sometliing witw in IS.S7. That was the 
 condition of pijirlianientiiry independence in which 
 the lion, geiitlciiian stood for all these years. Now 
 this is wiid to be not a singular ca.se. I observe in 
 an adilress which has been issued in aconstitueiu^y 
 now vacant, the candidate says : 
 
 " Why I should be sinclcd out lor iiublic censure when 
 there are dozens of members in the same Mouse, who, not 
 only liiive applied for and obtained limits forthcniselve.s, 
 but sii there iliiily votini; nionuys intu their own pockctH, 
 1 ciiiiiiot iiiidersliind." 
 
 Mr. CH.MM.I'ON. Whoishe'r 
 
 ,Sir KI(l[.\i:i) CAKTW UKiHT. His name is 
 .lolin Charles Hykert. 
 
 Mr. l>r..\KK. I take the earliest o)i]ioitiiiiity 
 of repeating here the \\vw which 1 have expressed 
 elsewhere on this subject, and of repeating the 
 distinction, obvious I should have thought to 
 anybody, between an lion, member who, in- 
 terested as he ought to be, in the welfare of his 
 constitucney, does exert himself for the benelit of 
 that const it ueney, iind an lion, gentleman who, 
 beiiiga nieniber, licconies substantially the proprie- 
 tor of an enterjirise, and is substantially the 
 person subsidised by the Kxeeutive, through the 
 action of I'ailiamenl on its advice. Ihit I have 
 soiiiething more to add. 'I'lie ease in hand is one 
 which exeiiiplities in almost all its aspects the 
 mischief of the ( iovenimenfs course, as that 
 course has been carried out, and the recklessness of 
 their niethods in carrying out that course. The 
 greatest harm has lieen done to u.s as to 
 the character of our investnients, as to tho 
 character of our Parliament, as to the character of 
 our ( loverninent, and as to our tinancial and eom- 
 mercial morality, and it seems to nie it is eminently 
 needful that I'arlianient should intervene. Some 
 time ago, I caused further emiuiries to be made as 
 to this railway and as to the methods which have 
 been used in respect to the course of financing 
 this enterjirise, to the extent to which it was 
 tinanced in England, apart from the two (iov- 
 eriiment subsidies to which I have referred. I 
 believe that it was re]iresented that the eaiiital 
 .stock was subsciilied to the full amount of .S!).')(),(HK), 
 that it was jiaid up to the extent of a little over 
 thrcc-ipiartcrs of a million, some JjT.'iI.fHK) odd, 
 leaving of eour.se about §200, (MM( uncalled and 
 avaihilile. I believe, as a matter of fact, that 
 statement was not true. Possibly on a small part 
 of thiA subscribed stock, somewhere about 5 per 
 
tlio 
 
 avc 
 
 S (IIU! 
 
 tlio 
 tliiit 
 
 SH of 
 'I'llO 
 
 I to 
 
 till! 
 
 ter of 
 coin- 
 itly 
 Sdiiiu 
 lis 
 liiive 
 iioiiig 
 was 
 (lov- 
 I 
 
 i))ital 
 ,(MK), 
 over 
 odd, 
 anil 
 tliat 
 part 
 ') per 
 
 cent, liad liccii tctnporarily |>aid, liut cvfii that 
 tritlc, I liclicvt^ liad Ixcii rrcmipcil out of tlic miiIi- 
 HJdii'N or otlicr axHt'tH of tlic roail, to tliosc wlio 
 paid it. I li('ii<'vc \\w lion, iiicinlit'i' for t liouctstcr 
 (Mr. Iluriis) was tiic coiitraitor, tin; coiiipany, tiiu 
 railway. In truth, lu^ .sci'uis to nin to liaA(^ licatcn 
 I'oolJali " out of Ills l)ootH." Ill' was tiu' .share 
 holch'r, 111! was the ]ii<'sidi'Ut, he wiis the limnaner, 
 he was the eoiitractoi-, he was the eustoiiier, he 
 was the linaiicier, and he was the r'upplier of tiii^ 
 railway iiinipany. Me was all tlie.Ne things; and 
 so you may eall him everything in conueetion 
 with this company, however ineonsistent, rolled 
 into one. I lielieve the alleged eost of the eon- 
 struetiiui of this road, as rt^prisented in l'"n,H- 
 land, «as the modest sum of .S'2.'{,"_'(MI per mile, 
 while, in faet, it would not eost, at fair \alues, 
 lails ineluded, and with eontraetor's )irolit, 
 mole than .iliout one-third that sum. I lielieve 
 that the whole eost of the enterprise, rails ineluded, 
 at fair values, with eontraetor's |irotits, was pro- 
 vided out of the (lovernment siilisidies and the 
 sales of the liondsin Pjij^land for t;i(K),(KH) sterling ; 
 and not merely was the whole eost, at fair values, 
 with eontraetor's pi-otits, so provided, hut there wiis 
 left an exeess of a very eonsideralile amount, whieli 
 went into the ])oeket of tiie lion, memlier fortUoii- 
 eester ( Mr. I'lUriis). So thai he received eleven- 
 twelfths of the stock, and lie made a cousiderahie 
 fortune out of his constriu!! ion contract. It is 
 i(iiite ])o.sHilile to project a railway which will result 
 as disastrously as this 'ailway lias resulted, and 
 yet to make a fortune out of the nndertakiiiL,'. 
 The railway may he useless, liiit the contractor may 
 lieeoiiie a proprietor and a iiiaii of fortune. J lie- 
 lieve the lion, memlier pnid a very largi^ propor- 
 tion, ])rolialily ahoiit thiee-fourlhs, of the ^^ ages 
 and local supplies in truck out of his store ; ,ind 
 that he issued a sort of ticket, which passed as a 
 local eurrency in the country to some extent, and 
 liy this means of paying in tnu'k he made a very 
 considerable addition to his profits. In fact he 
 could give a wrinkle to his colleague the Finance 
 Minister, who was trouhled a good deal in 
 getting the Itankiiig Hill through the Ifouse, 
 which has now fortiiiiatcly gone to the Upper 
 Chamlier, with respect to tin; rcilcmjition and 
 eircnlatioii and the keeping up of oiii' currency at 
 par. lam tolil that the lion, memlier fortliou- 
 cester (.Mr. Iluriis) hy means of these little tickets, 
 which came down to very low deuoiiiinations, man- 
 aged, for the cost of paper, lyiic and ink, to keep in 
 eircnlatioii a eonsideralile sum, and to sulisc(|ucut - 
 ly redeem it, I will not say at )iar, hut in a manner 
 tliat left him very handsome jirolits indeed. I 
 believe there is an explanation of the lengthening 
 of the line, which must have pu/./led us all, which 
 pu/.zled iiH! fill' a long time, for 1 could not at all 
 understand how it turned out thai this line which 
 was to lie only (ill miles fioiii I'.athnrst to ,Slii|i 
 ]iegaii could afterwards be reiireseiited as being 7" 
 miles in length, and how even when that extreme 
 length had lieen curtailed there could still remain 
 07 miles. It is to be accounted for thus. The 
 lion. Minister, as I have told you, stated, dur- 
 ing the progress of this atl'air through Parlia- 
 ment, that it was a great misfoitune to have too 
 short a railway ; and, carrying that view into 
 practical execution, there are two arrangements 
 for lengthening the mileage. The lion, member for 
 (Jlouuestor (Mr. Munis) has a couple of mills in 
 
 that neighborhood. 'I'o one of thcNO a briinuh 
 soniewliere about a mile long nmim liuilt, which 
 forms jiart of the mileage, and to reach the other 
 mill he ilcllected the road, increasing its length in 
 that way, live or six miles. Thus it was, and in these 
 two ways, that he found a, method by which to 
 swell sixty into sixty-seven or sixty-eight miles in 
 getting from Itiilhurst lo.Shippegan. Why, .Sir, the 
 great highway between the Kiisi and the West, the 
 great link stretching from the ocean port of 
 .Shippegan, connecting with the Intercolonial 
 Kailway, and thence with the Canallian Pacific 
 Kailviiiy, ami so on to N'lincouver, thus linkinu 
 I'liigl.'ind with China and .liipaii, vsas leiigtheneii 
 seven or eight miles, in order that the traltic to be 
 ilerived from the mills of the Imn. member for 
 (lloucester (Mr. Iluiiis) might not be lost to the 
 world ! Well, .seven or eight miles may not be 
 niucli, but it is between twelve and thirteen (ler 
 cent, on a mileage of sixty. Now, .Sir, 1 have 
 aci|uired some Mibal, iind some written informa- 
 tion on these subjects which 1 wish to comniuni- 
 cate to the lloiisu, A correspondent says : 
 
 " Hilt, iii'ciiriliiiK tn iny iniiiil, llio must ohjoctionalilo 
 piiiiil Mil the line is llic curve In liiinis' mill. Jl iiiiikeatlit) 
 riiail Idia-'cr liy 111 least seven er eittlit miles, for wliieli, 
 lint cniiMlinK llie exira expi'iiscs I'nr liiiililiiiK llie rn.nl, the 
 expenses lit Iravclliin.' mill Ireij-'lil will lie iiinrli liiRlnT 
 llian il il I'nllnwcl a slrniulit line In Caraiiiiil, whieli 
 eniiM have lieen very easily ilmie. 11,111 the mill, lliero . 
 was a kind (if Inwn, there iiiiiilil lie some reasnii (ur n 
 ilevialinii IVinii Ihe sliiiiKlit line, lint llie only Ira Hie lliero 
 is llial nt (lie mill. As I'ar as I knnw, llie rijilil nl'way liii.x 
 rinl lieen paid yel, which causes iiinru <ir less iiiiiniiiiriiiK 
 aininiK ihe penple," 
 
 This letter was written .some years ago; I lio]ie it has 
 been ])aid since. — 
 
 " Hill Mr. Tiiiriis liinmises Ihal il will he all rinhl liy- 
 aiid-live. The penple whn wnrUcil iipnn the line li.ive lieeii, 
 I think, pi'c'llv well p.iid, allhniiKh I heard many enin- 
 plainls, that lliey Iniil In wail Iniij,' I'nr Iheir pay, ami even 
 i'lirc'eil In accept sinre pay ; lull I eannut say lo what 
 exieiil lliL'se cnmplaiiils were t'niniileil." 
 
 Then, Sir, I ha\e another letter from uiiotliur cor- 
 respondent who says ; 
 
 " I iln lint knew linw liiaiiy sln(-klinlili'r.s there are, hut 
 feel sale in sayinir Ihal there are iint limre than eiiflit or 
 nine hc-iilcs liiinis. The nriKinal stuck list cniitaineil ii 
 1.1 rue iinnilicr nt names and the aiiiniint siihserilieil was ill 
 the vicinity nt Sl,OllO,(K)(). fii miler In tret rid nt siieli an 
 unwieldy luimlicr a call ntn per cent, was made nii the 
 snliscrihi'd stuck. 'I'lic slncklinlders were, nt eniirse, 
 iiiialile III pay, and many nl llieiii Iraiislevred their stuck 
 111 Ihe president, ntliers declined In pay and their names 
 were struck ntV Ihi' list. Snme say that the stuck whs 
 snld and Hiirns liniicht it in, lint as I never saw the 
 reiinircd imtice nl'salc in the liiiiinl, ^'k.vW/i— .■illli(nieli it 
 mifrlil have hcen pnlilisheil— 1 am inclini'd tn the ludiet 
 that Ihe stnidi list was rinpened. Seven nt llie snliseri- 
 liers were allnwcd tn lin!d snilii-ient stnck In eiialilc tliciii 
 tn act as direetnrs and wciitlhrniich Ihe t'nrin nt paying 
 the a jicrci'iit. call. I heard thai twnnlhers weie reiaineil. 
 Ilnnis then IcmU llie lialance nt the stnck allnweil liy law, 
 .>'.l."il»,0|ill. Icannol spe.-ik with eerlaiiily, lint it isneiierally 
 
 iinderst 1 anil lielieved that the .imoniil which was paid 
 
 iipnii the slipcU liy a tew id' the slncUlnihlers has lieen 
 since re landed. 1 was tnld liy a iiiaii whn had a cniitraet 
 tiir uradiiii.' a seclinn nt Ihe road that the madiiiK wniild 
 mil exceed .S'J.DIHI per mile. 1 jndce that Ihe eost of 
 Ki'adint! and liridt:ini.' I'mm ilathiirst tn ('arai|iiet did not 
 exceed 5;-,5iK) per mile. Krnm all the inl'n' iiiatinn that I 
 have lieen aide In (lalher 1 shniilil say Ih i aliniif niie- 
 i'diirth 111' the wlinle was paid in cash, and lliree-tniirllisili 
 (rnnds I'liitu the sriires nt the president ; llie sleepers cnst H 
 cents apiece and were paid t'nr chielly in tcnnils. 'I'lieii 
 men emplnyed nii Ihe rnad, placing tlie sleepers and 
 rails, liallastiiiK, iVc., are nearly all paid in (funds, as .so 
 tar as I can learn iinthins lias yet lieen paid t'nr land 
 taken I'nr the read, imr tnr damaire tn ernps, except a 
 trillc, iinr I'nr liiiiilier cat ii|iiin the lands IlirnuKli which 
 the roads runs and used in building eulverl:j, i!tc." 
 
8 
 
 At I laid boforu, tliiH Icttur wiui writtvn noiiiu yciirN 
 
 U({n, III lilt' I'llil of IKMII. 
 
 "Tliry liiivi' Iwcp iiri'lty (ill! liMpkiiiutn'ciiiiil-liiiiicl loco- 
 liiotivi'H. iiMu ('lii'ii|ii<('t'iiiiil rliiNH |iiii'iirriK>'ri'iii',twi>tr<'iKlit 
 ciir" itiiil It'll III' Iwt'lvti Mat cnrH. 'I'liix I'lill lliry IkhikIiI ii 
 Niiiiw |>liinii)i. Tht'i'ii in II sliiliiin liMiiM' iil llm jiinclinii 
 wiirtli iiliiiiil $7INI, mil' III lliii'im' Mill, IiiiIIiiii'hI, nnmil 
 Clitliiii, mil' III tiriiiiili- AiiHi', lint' ul lliiriiN' Mill,('iiriii|iii<t 
 —now (jullril ItiiiiiBvllli' " 
 
 So llllll tilt) llllll. gtaitlt^lllllll IlilH ^llt IiIh llllllltl (HI II 
 
 town if lit^ liiiH nut ^nl liiM naintt in tin: lailvMiy. 
 
 — " anil mif IhtimiI lliti villiiKti iit (^iriiijiicl. 'I'lir iivimiiki' 
 ciihI 111' llii'hi- wiiiilil mil I'xct'i'il <i.'!.VIriii:li. Vmi will liiivnii 
 lii'lliT iili'ii III llii' i'iihI III' riilliliK I'lurk iiiiil riiil.i lliiiii I, I 
 lii'iil'il Hit' rmii|iiiny's I'liuini'i'i' Htiitr, ill ii iliniii'i' irivrn liy 
 lilt' liri'siili'lil, lllllt lilt' NIlliHillii'S Wlilllil III- ."llHirirllt III 
 liiiilil Hiiil ri|iiii>lliii I'liiiil, III' llllll llllll iilimil I'liiiijili'li'il 
 liin Hiirvi'V mill Imsnl his t'.'<liiiiiitt' ii|>iiii it, 'I'lir riuiillii'il in 
 vi'ry Rill II I iiM'ii iii'W riMi'l, iiml niils.iillliiiiiKliiMiiiMiilrnilily 
 MkIiIit iIiiiii llini'ti mi lilt' Iiili'milmiiiil Itiiilwiiy iiml Ni'w 
 Iti'UiiNwii'k i'imiiIh, art', I lii'lit'vu, nt vrry iii""l i|iialily. 
 ili'.siilt's lliu Hliiliiiii limiHos lliri'i'iii'ti I'i^lil hiiiiiII |iliilliinii.i 
 iilmilt llio riiiiil Cni' laiiiliiiK ainl rt'criviiiK tri'iirlil. 1 linvi' 
 mil iii'iii' iivrr llllll pnrliiiii ottlii: I'liinl trinii ('iiiaiiiict 
 liiwanls tJlii|>|>rKaii Irii iiiiirs, liiil spi'iikiii); trulii my 
 k|iiiwlriltjii 111 llir fiiiiiilry. llnri' \n iml mm IuuIki' in Unit 
 iliHliiiii'ii anil ntit iimru lliaii tour culverts on Hiiiall 
 NtruaiiiH." 
 
 Tlu-n from luiotiiur uoi'rcHjxintluiit : 
 
 " I lliink liurns proruri'il liis rails liy liyiiolliccatiiK,' lliti 
 first iiiiirlKiiKr liiimis lit llir i'iiiii|iiiiiy In Ilir lull aimiiint 
 lit issim iiiitlim'isi'd liy Ilir I'limpany's I'liarlrr. A sniiill 
 |iiirliiiii lit llu'iii only ha VI' lici'ii ai'tually solil. 'I'liis wmilil 
 Iriivi' liurns liis two siilisiilirs to icraili' anil i'i|ui|i Ills rniul, 
 ami 1 iiiii i|iiilr t'onvini'i'il llllll lie wnnlil mil liavr iiiorii 
 llian from .'ii-,IXKI 111 it'J.'ilK) to itivi- out ol tlirsn siilislijiijs, 
 lull III' wmilil must certainly have llial iiiucli of iiniiirKiii. 
 It is a wcll-kniiwn tact thai liurns was in lu'ciiniaryslraitB 
 at the liiiii' lie went into llic railroail, ami he iH now in 
 
 niioil slamlinif. I am satislieil is richi as to 
 
 liurns lieiiiK the company ami owning the whole iimlcr- 
 lakintr, luiii tliiit mil ii ilollar ot private moneys liiive lieeii 
 |iut iiiio the enterprise liy any here eoniiecleil with it. It 
 isirm ilieri'Wiis ii ilevialion in llie line iil the railway 
 periiiitlcil III reiieh ami take in ii mile ot liurns, aiMiiif; 
 six miles In llie IimikIIi ot ihe roiiil." 
 
 'I'liL'U from auotlici- L'(iri'en|)(mileiit about the same 
 (liitu : 
 
 " Tlio roail starts from tho Intercolonial about one 
 liiilf mile south ot the Nepi!sii|uit River ami runs ilown 
 tiillowiiiK nearly the course of tho river alimit four 
 miles ; tlierc is a liraiieli tioiu there to Mr. liurns' mills 
 iilimil one mile. Krom (iraiiilc Aiise the roiiil curves riiii- 
 niiiK south to llunis' mills mi Caraiiuet Kiver, oinlit miles 
 from (iranile Ansc ; this ilclli^ctioii leimthons the road 
 ulioiit live miles. 'I'iiii hriiluti across liiiss Hivcr has a 
 small Kiiinilc aliutmcnt at each liiink. one Rranitc jiicr 
 in the centre ot tho stroaiu anil two Im.x truss spans ot 
 iilioiit thirty-live feet each. 'I'ho liridttc on Ciiraiiuet 
 Kiver has only one span ot iihont thirty feet. At llei- 
 Iramrs lirook, iihoiil four miles holow the mill, there is a 
 woollen liriilue iiliout KKI feet lontf, liuilt upon liciits auil 
 trestles, ami a small wooileu hriilite at I'okesliaw. At 
 Ijiltic Kiver, ('arai|uet, there is a cellar hriiltcc built 
 in bliH'kwork, about ■'itK) feel loiitt. 'I'liese, 1 think, 
 are the only structures mi tho whole ot the line 
 thai can be ealleil briili?es. There lu-e, 1 sluuilil siiy, ciuhl 
 to ten woollen culverts, liirKO ami snmll,on brooks and 
 hollows, with earth fillinns from si.x to twelve feet. 
 I'ho ^'ra^linlt ot a consiileriiblo portion ot the mad 
 was let ill short sections to several cmitraetors 
 by private coiitrael. Due of those contractors told me 
 that the urailiiur would cost about .'iil,IMIII per mile. The 
 irrailiuu and bridiiiiitt of the whole road would not 
 exceed, I should think, .'r;'J,(J(l(l per mile. The rails arc 
 very (food, of iiiediuin size. There is a stiilioii house at 
 tho .lunetion, one at liurns' Mill, lialhiirst, o:io at 
 Clifton, one iiKiraiide Anse, one at liurns' Mill, (Jaraiiuet 
 lliver, and one at CariKiuet, average cost ot each about 
 l!f,:W. Mr. Hums appears to be liuildiiiK the road him- 
 self; whether he has Kline throiigli the form of havimta 
 coiilract from the emnpaiiy, I ilo not know. I caiiuot 
 ."ay correctly what proportion of the work was paid for in 
 (roods at his stores, but 1 think it safe to say that tlirce- 
 foiirthsof it were paid in that way and one-fourth in cash. 
 I presume that the subsidies if properly managed woulil 
 build and etiuip the road as it is now equipped ; in fact, I 
 hearil tho ciiBiiiccr of tho company stato that they would, 
 
 niter he bail iiiiide a survey. First morluiiKe bonil was 
 sold in I'liiKlamI for i:|lHl,liil(l slerliiiK mi llie till miles, at 
 XIW, III Ii per ecnl. inlerest. A cull of .''i jier cent, was 
 made upon the siiliHcribeil stock; ofemirse only ii lew 
 respondi'il. 1 believe .inx' " '"..:',... .ii iiiiinbi'r to form a 
 board lit ilireetms (7), others transferred their stuck to 
 .Mr. liurns ; this is how he ijot possession of nearly all of 
 the stock. 
 
 " The cost of the roiid U rupreseiileil in EiikIoiuHo be 
 II bout .^'JI.IKMI per lliile, 
 
 " II isKcnerallv bclieveil that wliiitevvr wikD piiltl huH 
 since been rel'iiinled from llie subsidies." 
 
 Now, .Sir, I turn Id tlit' I'liiniisli luisiiii'MH. 'I'liuru 
 «i 11' t\Mi |iliis|)t:i'tiiMfM JNSiieil in l",ll>,'iiinil, lliti Hint 
 of wliirli I liiiM' nut llllll till' o|i|)iii'tiinity of Hi't'iii^, 
 lull of tliti Ht'i'onil I liii|i|ii'ii to liavt' a I'lipy. It 
 :i|i|it'iii'H to have i't'|ii't'.si'iiti'il that tliiU'e hail lieen 
 a |)iior allot infill of t.'iO.IHKI out of a total lioiiil 
 iHMUi' of L"I(HI,IKKI st}^. J mill tilt' |iiii,s|ieitiiH was for 
 lilt' is.-iiiii of t'7li,(HMl, litiiij,' lilt! unallollt'il |iorliiiii 
 of l,'IIKI,(HK> of Ii oei- itiil. tif.st liiiill>,'a>;i' wtellilij,' 
 lionils of CKKItai'li, it'ilt'eiiialile at par in \WH, anil 
 seiuit'il as a tiisL I'liarj^e. 'I'liey a|i|Har to have 
 heen issueil at !tH. 'I'lit; |>i'iis]ieetllH Htates : 
 
 " The (iovernnieiils of the Dmninion of Oaiiiida anil tlio 
 rroviiieeof New liriinswiek liavoKiven a joint (fuariintceto 
 tlieCaraipiet Kailwiiy Cmniianyol (;l,2S()pe^lllill•.alllollllt- 
 illu in all III a free Kraut of X7li,SIKI, lieiiiK mure than iiiie- 
 tmirlli of the cost ot construction. As security for the 
 payment of tile iiiteiest on llie wliiilc iimonnt of ihebmids 
 for three years, viz, up to the 1st ot .July, IHH'.I, ineliisive, 
 a suHicieiit sum has been set aside anil will lie deposiled 
 with the Imperial Ita Ilk in the ii nines nl Ihe trustees. The 
 ('araijiiel Kailway is a. branch from thet'aiiailian (iovcrii- 
 iiienrs main line, emiiiecliiiK with llic liilerenlmiial at 
 liatliiirst, llllll thus with llie Camidiaii I'aeilic anil the 
 whole lit the I'anadiiiii railroad system. Il runs from 
 the lialliurst .liiiietimi In ,S|iip|re){iiii llarbor, the 
 eastern extremity {<{ Ihe I'mviiice of New llruns- 
 wick, establisliiiiK a llirmiiili cmiimiinieation rii;lit 
 iicriiss llritisli North America I'rmn the .Mlantic to 
 the I'aeilic seiilioard. The line has been built in the most 
 substantial manner by eontriii't, at a cost of X'^ttlblKKI, 
 under linverniueiit supervision. Already over forty miles 
 are in operation, and the reniiiiiiiiiir twenty miles beinu 
 faradvaiieed tnwards emiiplelimi. will, it is ex|iecteil, be 
 tinislicd and iipencd by September. The liicatimi o| the 
 Caraipii't Kailway 's emineiillv I'avorable for the eiiriiiii« 
 of steady revenue ; its course lieiimthroiiKli a imuf settled 
 country whose cmnmuiiities are emxaiied in impiirtant 
 lucreanlile pursuits, the resiuirccs of Ihe dislriet beiiiK 
 very larire. Theanioiint of iiiorl);in;e boiiils authorised 
 by Act ol rarliiimeiit is limiteil In CIIHMKKI and represents 
 a cbarire of only Xl,7l per mile upon a railway eostiiin 
 Xl,H3;i per mile, the ordiiiaiy share eapital of the ciilii- 
 piiiiy is •■SI 15(1,(11 Id (or Xl!N),IK)(l), Ihe whole of which has been 
 allotted in Canada. The innrtnaifo bonds take priority 
 before the share eiipital, bolli as to principal and interest, 
 and arc liirtiier secured by a inorliiiore umler a I rust deed 
 of Ihe value ol the railway, rollinit stock and oilier assets 
 of the emiipany, liesiiics the uncalled capilal, namely, 
 by morli-'a^'e of sixty miles of railway, whereoi' 
 forty miles arc in operaliun, haviiiu been cmn- 
 pleted and eiiuippcd at ii cost of XI,H.'t3 per 
 mile, m- eiiual to Xl'.n.'iL'') ; by twenty miles of 
 railway in course of emislriiclion, under emitract, for, 
 say, X!iii,iili(t; by nnealled capital ot the company, Xll,l''" 
 makiiu; a total ot X.'t.'lM'llt, or more than tlirico 
 animint of the entire issue ot bonds authorised; tl 
 atfordiii); scciirily el' the highest class. The iimou 
 required nut of the revenue to pay the interest upon ll 
 whole ot the lioinls is only XltKI per mile anniially. A 
 carefully prepared cslimale based on the tiallic already 
 existiimshows ihai a revenue otiit least X'JXt per mile may 
 be exiiceled. ."^iiice t be opciiiiiK of the line now in oiiera- 
 lion the earniiiKs have been liidbly satisfactory. Mr. K. F. 
 liurns, M.P.. the president mil uoiieral inaniiKer, reports : 
 ' Thus lar the receipls tniiii boili inisseiiKor and IreiRlit 
 have exceeded the cmiipiiny's uiiist sanguine exiiecta- 
 tioiis.' And, indeed, he adds : 'Since reKutardiiily trains 
 commenced runiiiiui the earryiiiK capacity of the line has 
 been taxed In the ulinost, with every likelihood ot con- 
 tinually increasing biisiiicss. The working exiieiisos and 
 cost of maintenance will be exccpliuniilly low owiiiK to 
 the absence of steep Kradcs, sliarii curves ami heavy 
 bridges.' " 
 
 There, iSir, was tlic state lent on whiuli the issuu 
 
Ily. -> 
 ilicaJy 
 li! may 
 (inora- 
 
 TK. F. 
 ;|ior(s : 
 troiKlit 
 [pucta- 
 
 I ruins 
 iiiu litis 
 ut con- 
 ges 1111(1 
 riiiK to 
 
 heavy 
 
 issue 
 
 took pluuo. Now, what wuh tli« i'i'hiiU of all tliiH I 
 tinaiiuin^ ? ONtniiHilily, tlui HiilmiilicH iiiiioiiiiti'il tni 
 $404, (MKI, Doiiiiiii'dii nnil I'loviiaial, nr ?ii."i,ll.')(l a 
 mile fill' Nixlyui^hl iiiilt'N ; llm IhuhIh, allnwIiiK nil { 
 'J(l jM)i' I'out. fur tliti iiiHia'vnl iiitii'^Mt ami fni' tlii' 
 iliHCdiiiit at wiiicii tlii^v wi^rt! milil, hIiimiIiI net 
 :if4(KI,(K)(), III' A:),<)I)0 a iiiilti : makiiig a total of ImhiiIh 
 ami Hiilmiilii'M of 8^*14, (HH), i'i|Ual tn tH I ,S,'i(l ptu' 
 mild ; tlioru v/an an all('){i'>l chnIi irHiill finiii tiui 
 paiil-up Htdi'k, i'<'|ii't'H('iit»iil at .'j'T'il.HMT, liriii^' i'i|iial 
 til i!|(| l,(l,'i() [Kii' inilu ; niakiiig tlu^ prcti'iidi'il riml 
 • if •'!i>2'J,)MM) per iiiilr ; ">'< if >'"» take IIiiMmuiiIh at 
 tludr face valui), #'2.'i,'i(K) iicr milt!, wliii'li wiim tlm 
 price Hvt up ill thin KugliMli priMpcittux. 'I'lie tint' 
 valuL'df the work, as f liavi^ otatcil, was piolialily, 
 inu'luiling i'oiitrai'toi''M piolit, a ^'oml ileal umltn' 
 !«iS,<HKI a mile, iimtfiul of .'!*•_»•_',( KM I or .'!i'_';t,(MHI a mile, 
 ami the fiii'tH 1 have given imlicale tliat, Miilijiit to 
 the iiueHlioii of the niargiii of profit. N'oii nnIII nli- 
 Hci've that it in Htateil here that the work wan iloiie 
 iimlei' govei'iiiiiental HUpei'viHioii, which 1 ilii not 
 nmierHtaiiil In lie eorreet. It Ih ipiite true the 
 ( iiiv(M'niiieiit engineer has In n^iiorl jo the ( invern- 
 nuMit tlijit the woik is so far eoiiHlriicteil a.s to 
 entitle tjie Huliniily to lie puiil ; lint that 
 that JH the HeuNe in wliieli this term Ih iiseil 
 Ik^i'o, it is not lair to MU|ipose. It is un- 
 fortunate that tlie (lovurnment of Cauaila 
 was lirouglit int. I this prospeetus, it is al.so siuil 
 that the roai* is a link of the transcontimntal 
 highway, a nlatenuuit wliieh, of eour.se, unle.ss the 
 port of Shijipegan in to he maile, in faet, an oeean 
 terminuM, camiot lie in any sense I'nri'eet. It is 
 Haiil that the mail cost S|,4.'i(t,(llK). That is falsi!. 
 It in said that tliree-ipiaiters of a million of .stock 
 was jiaiil up. That is false. The roail cost only 
 u little O'er half a million ; ami nothing was 
 paid on the stock. Then there are oliserva- 
 tions made with regard to the eminently favor- 
 alile chaiacter of the location, and of the coun- 
 try through whicli the line luns, and then you 
 have tln' report of President and Manager iJurns 
 as to the results. There you get the statement 
 that it will re((uii'e only CKM) per mile of euruing.s 
 to pay the interest on the liouds, which is correct ; 
 it would reipiire, in truth, only aliout .'r<4."i() ,iei' 
 mile, to |)ut a Hue jioiiit upon it, to ]iay the inter- 
 est on the lioiids of :;*.■{(),()(»() a year. It is stated liy 
 Mr. Hui'ns that, according to this careful estimate, 
 a most careful estimate, liased upon the actual result 
 of the traffic at that time, a revenue of C'JOO or 
 "■■' 'HMi mile, or double the amount reiiuired to 
 
 ,ii*J lerest, uuiy be expected. Net earnings of 
 
 ''■'' ?*l,tMK) mean, of course, gioss earnings of 
 
 I'S that amount according to the ordinary 
 iMJCt calculation for roads of this (lesci'i|ition, 
 
 whi' that you will net only uhout one-third of 
 
 yom gioas returns, sothatthenetestiiiiatedearning 
 of !J68,(HM) a yeai', which is alleged in this report to 
 bo justified by a careful estimate ba.sed upon the 
 traffic existing at the time, woidd reipiire a gi'oss 
 earning of !if'2tt4,(MM> i year. Now, if you turn to 
 
 it will be found that in the 
 1 this line was in jiart com- 
 pleted anil in part i mg, no details wcresu))]ilie(l; 
 l)ut details wci plied for the year l.S.SS, and 
 
 md are in the hands of the 
 ' although we have not got 
 ir the earlier year indicate, I 
 i hich (luantity, I believe, has 
 been increased bv a.-, much as 50 jier cent. , because I 
 B 2 
 
 the railway stati.« 
 earlier years, altji 
 pleted and in part i 
 l)ut details wci 
 have been sup| 
 (lovernment for i 
 them. The detai 
 think, two engine 
 
 liclieve there are now lliree eiiginew, one firHt iHaHH 
 car, two Hecond cIiihh and emigiaut carHiuiii tiftt^en 
 platforiii cars, NO that it wonltl not bti extremely 
 ditlii'ult to tax to the full, or evtui to ii\-er-tax, the 
 resources of a company so Hcantily eipiipped. The 
 return of the operations of IHSS hIiowh a total 
 tonnage of 1 1, III.') toHH inovud, namely : 
 
 Tiinii 
 
 Kliiiir (MJO 
 
 drain : 1ft 
 
 blvtiHtimk 2ft 
 
 r,ii(iH njim 
 
 FlrewiiiHl 1.280 
 
 Aiiit nil olliur Koudi 4,275 
 
 Tiital 11,195 
 
 The return HhowsbesideH .'{,.')(N) paHHengerH nwivoil, 
 
 and a total train mileage of passenger and freight 
 trains of ■_'.'l,.'iOO miles, and it shows a cost reporteil 
 to the (loveriimenl of the enterpri.se of .'«(!, l.'t.'i, 000. 
 The gross I'eturn in money from the passi^nger 
 trallic was !i|f2,4:t-2.7.") and from freight .l!!M!l!t. I», 
 making an aggregate gross return of ;:f I l.li.'tl.lM, 
 while the expenses, I believe, were i!||,.'tll, or 
 a handsome net protit of .S.'t'iO on the year's run- 
 ning. Thele was, however, 1 admit, a very great 
 and extraordinary deMlopmeut in one branch, 
 that of railway casualties. The losses by collisions, 
 or trains thrown from the track were such us would 
 amiily meet the emergencies of a much larger 
 ami more important enterprise. In that respect, 
 if in no other resjiect, the lion, numiber for 
 (Jlouccster was eipuil to the situation, because 
 he produced a number of casualties which might 
 fully satisfy the ambition of a much greater road, 
 iinil of i^veii a larger railway managei' than himself. 
 In tiiat year of ISS.S, tlu^se railway statistics 
 show that there was one passenger killed, anil seven 
 einjiloyi's, or, in all, eight deaths, and there were 
 besides five injureil, making in all, thirteen casual- 
 ties. I am afraid that one of those very substantial 
 bridges must have gone down or some ot her dri^adful 
 accident must have happeneil to ])roduce that loss of 
 human life in this year, and, perhaps, to |iidduce un- 
 luijipy results, as to the running expenses of the road, 
 in the following year. I believe, also, this road is 
 closed u|i fri'(|ucntly, in fact for several months in 
 each yeai', so that notwithstanding the very active 
 industry of the ilistiict, and the great demand ex- 
 isting tliei'e for a railway, the iuhabitants are 
 obliged to HUller foi' the want of an o)ien road for 
 some months each year. For this year the 
 (ioveruuient have not lirought down the railway 
 statistics, but the Ministei' of Railways gave us 
 the other day the general retuins of the expenses 
 and earnings. He gave us .'iiilS,(MM> as the rec(!ipts 
 anil .'#'J7,<MI0 as the exjienses ; and this i.s the year 
 in which the money was wanted to pay interest 
 on the bonds, for up to this year the interest was 
 proviileil, I jiresume, out of the amount rea- 
 lised from the lionds, and ])ut into bank ; and 
 the calculations in the jirospectus, therefore, have 
 reference to this period. At this time the fund 
 provided for )iayment of intei'cst is exhausted, and 
 the calculations of the pro.sjiectus declare that out 
 of the revenue ample funds will be obtained to 
 meet the interest for the remaining jieriod. How 
 are those calcidations verified '! In this year, 
 •SIS, (MM* are the gross receipts, and .S27,(KM» are the 
 expenses, making a deficit of .'ii!!t,(KH). I caimot 
 account for that at all, unless it be that it is utterly 
 impossible to keep the railway open at all on such 
 
r 
 
 10 
 
 a nominal amount of traffic; without incurring a 
 larger expenditure than you can cliarge for, at any 
 reasonable rates, on tliat sniall amount of traffic. 
 Or, taking the other alternative, tliat some serious 
 accident took place involving an additional cliargc 
 on the earnings of tlie year. For the hon. gen- 
 tleman has no longer a capital account to which he 
 can resort, as can the right hon. the First Miidster, 
 who, when an accident happens on his road, or he 
 wants t() buy 8i>"..c new cars, or build a new bridge, 
 has only to call on us and charge the amount to 
 cajiital account. Hut the hon. member, luiving 
 no capital, except that uncalled ca])ital, which is 
 fructifying in the pockets of the one shareholder, 
 himself, the lion, gentleman, I say, when he can- 
 not pay any demand out of running expenses, has 
 to charge it somewhei'c, and makes a debit bal- 
 ance. This year the road was to have earned gross 
 .f2()4,(M)() in order to earna net!ii!()S,(MM» ; Imt instead 
 of that it shows a gross of $18, (MM) only, and a 
 ilefjcit of .*!!),(MM) on the year's work. It is j)er- 
 fectly obvious that the FiUglish people who were 
 induced to .subscribe to the bonds have been 
 gulled. It is perfectly obvious that this ])ros- 
 ])cctus is false ; and one inunediatc result of it is 
 that an a])plication has been made this Session to 
 the (lovernment to take over the road. As the 
 First Minister has told us, and as the comnumica- 
 tions which the hon. gentleman for North 
 
 York (Mr. Mulock) read indicate, negot' i.tions 
 ai'e going on for the assumption by the viov- 
 ernment of this valuable asset. All these matters 
 nuist be seriously considered. They have a 
 direct bearing on, and should afTect our consi- 
 deration of the general result of the (iovernment's 
 poli(^y of subsidising railways. They affect the 
 (piestion of the duty of the (Jovernment as to the 
 information they ought themselves to obtain, and 
 to connnunicate to this House, upon which a 
 ileeision is to be based by them, in the first 
 instance, and then acted uj)on by us, as to whether 
 subsidies are to be given or no. They affect the 
 (|ue8tion of the great jiolicy of assumption Ijy 
 the (iovernmeet of these lines, which the hou. 
 member for Albert (Mr. Weldon) and the hon. 
 member for Westmoreland (Mr. Wood) have raised, 
 the hon. inem)>er for (iloueestcr (Mr. Burns), 
 liimself, not being wholly inditi'ercnt, and which 
 the right hon. the First Minister said was a 
 subject eminently deserving serious consideration 
 and would receive that ccmsideration. They 
 affect, both here and in the mother country, our 
 own financial and moral standing as ii people, as ft 
 (lovernment, and as a I'ailiament. They affect the 
 honoi' and the indepcn<lence of this Parliament 
 itself. And we are bound to consider theui all, if we 
 would j)reserve the public consideration for our- 
 selves. 
 
 OTTAWA : Printed by liROWN CiiAMnKRLiN, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
 If 
 
 I li^^Blfc— IMIIPIjl 
 
fiouse of Commons Beb^t^s 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 mniT 
 
 WEDNESDAY, 19th MAECII, 1890. 
 
 mi iL 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. 1 think that, after what has been 
 (lone in other instances, us tlie hon. gentleman lias 
 stated, we shonhl adopt this motion, but I cannot 
 forbear to say that 1 view witii some ajiprehension 
 the jnoposal of the hon. gentleman to move tlie 
 Honse to extend tlie time for action liy the Stand- 
 ing Ordei's ("omniittee. I must .say. Sir, that dur- 
 ing some years I took a very earnest part in endea- 
 voring to enforce, as far as was jjracticable, consist- 
 ently with real emergencies, tliose rules of tlie House 
 wliicli recpiire tlie presentation in due time of 
 private Hill legislation. I think that we have now 
 fallen into laxer practices than have prevailed in 
 former years. From my observance of the system 
 in past Sessions, I think it is one wiiich is open to 
 very great possibilities of evil, anil when we find 
 private Hill legislation dropjiing into this House 
 at an advanced perioil of the Session, it is 
 almost certain that so'iiething will slip through 
 for want of being attended to, which, if jnopeny 
 attended to, wculd bo prevented. So far from 
 relaxing these rules, 1 i'.ad I'ather that we should 
 pass an ordinance which would make them more 
 binding, and that tlie regulations of the Standing 
 Orders Committee should be more rigorously ob- 
 served in tile futurB than in the jiast. I think our 
 attention .slnnild be directed to some plan by which 
 we siiould further enforce upon tliose who reiiuire 
 private Hill legislation, the duty — unless mi a case 
 of emergency, and of course our laws are flexible 
 and adeijuate to meet all real emergencies — of 
 giving the full notice required, and sending in 
 their petitions and presenting their liills early 
 in the Session. I tiiink a very huge imjirove- 
 nicnt would lie obtained if we made some arrange- 
 ment whereby these petitions should be .so dealt 
 witli tiuit the IJills, by perhaps some alternate ])r<)- 
 cess or otherwise, should take their initiatioii in 
 the otliei' lirauch of the Legislature. We know- 
 that after I'arliament meets, of necessity but a very 
 small porti(>ii of legislative duty can be dis"harged 
 by the Senate in the early (lait of the Session, 
 until we supply it with work. I think a function of 
 the highest public conseiiueiice would be ])erformed 
 by that Cliamber, if a niuch larger part of the 
 
 private Bill legislation, than has ever been initiated 
 there, were, by a course of practice, which the two 
 Houses have it in their power to arrange, begun 
 in that branch of the Legislature. We know tliat 
 in Enghind a certain chiss of private Bill legisla- 
 tion is very largely mouhled and managed by the 
 House of Lords. I have some reason to lielieve, 
 not from personal experience, but from what I 
 have liearil, that those Bills which are dealt with 
 by the Senate are very carefully criticised, and I 
 do think that it would lie of great eonse(iuence, if 
 we could devise some methods, not for furtlier 
 relaxation, but for more rigid observance of the 
 general rules ; and also for providing that a large 
 portion of the private Bill legislation should take 
 its initiatory stages in the other branch of the 
 Legislature, in order that it may have that more 
 perfect consideration whieli we cannot give it here. 
 
 ^KK. I do not snppose. Sir, that any 
 imagine your conduct to have been 
 
 Mr. BL^ 
 
 one could 
 
 otherwise than proper and correct, and the mis- 
 understanding was due to the fact that attention 
 was not called to the ari'angement on which the 
 ])roceeding to be taken was intended to be based. 
 The second reading of the Bill, even under the cir- 
 cumstances under which the First Minister proposes 
 it shall be read, may be used in the neighboring 
 Republic as an evidence that we have assented to 
 
 j its jirinciple. I think that it wouhl lie an unworthy 
 act for us to pass it through a second reading with 
 any such object, since the First Minister, who leads 
 the great majority in this House, has announced 
 
 I that he does not agree to its principle. He has 
 stated that the second reading has entirely another 
 object. We have, therefore, no idea of using this 
 as an indication of any intention to pass iiostile 
 legislation. Whatever the intention may be in our 
 breasts, that is not the intention with which we are 
 asked to go through a second reading. If it were, I 
 should regard it as a very regrettable intention to 
 act on, unless we were fully decided that the prin- 
 cijile is a sound one, which the First Minister sayd he 
 does not affirm. On the contrary, lie asks us to agree, 
 in words contrary to the formal eileet of the second 
 
Ik? 
 
 reading, tliat we do not affirm that principle. He 
 has stated that liis desire is tliat the Bill should be 
 referreil to a Select Committee, in order that there 
 should be a careful and full report made of the 
 conditions and circumstances of our grievance and 
 difficulty with the ueighlioring Rejuiblic — not the 
 grievance and difficulty wliicli this Rill professedly 
 is designed to remove, namely, that too many 
 people are coming in from the other side, but the 
 grievance and difficulty wo laboi' under by the 
 restriction of tlic passage from our side to the other 
 of the citizens of our own country. I hold that is 
 not the func^tion of a Select Committee (»u the 
 Bill. I think, Sir, you will find that all the Select 
 ("ommittee on the |}ill can do, if you strike one, 
 is to report tlic 15111 either in its present shape, 
 or witli sucji amend meuts as they may think 
 sliould bo suljmitted to tiie House ; and, there- 
 fore, tiie ol)ject the right lion, gentleman has in 
 view will not be attained by the appointment of 
 the Select Conunitte(! he proposes. If the purpose 
 be to examine t!iis (pu'stion carefully, to consider 
 its wliolo bearings - tlie bearings, namely, of the 
 operation of the law of tjie United States upon us, 
 and the bearings of the oi)ei'ation of such a law as is 
 proposed by this Bill upon us, and the best remedies 
 for the difficulties the bottei- plan would be, that 
 the hon. mover of the Bill shouhl jjropose, or that 
 the hon. First Minister sliould projiose, a motion for 
 the appointment of a Select ('ommittee to consider 
 the whole sul)ject and rojjort ujion it. Such a (Com- 
 mittee could consider it and give us a full and 
 general report, whicli a Select ('ommittee on the 
 IJill will not, under its appointment, have power to 
 give, as such Committee will be able to deal only 
 with this Bill, wliich presents but one side of the 
 ease, and its jiowers will bo limited to simply remo- 
 delling the olaaaos acconling as tlie Committee 
 think they .sliouhl be remodelled. I wish to refer 
 briefly to another matter, in resjiect of which I have 
 been anticipated by my hon. friend the member for 
 South Oxford (Sir Richard (Jartwright). 1 do 
 
 think that the passage, in its present form, of the 
 legislation on the other side, and the etTect which 
 has been suffered to be given to that legislation, 
 without any attempt made to modify it, are 
 very cogent proofs of the importance of a diplo- 
 matic agent of Canada being present at Washington. 
 I stated that view as long ago as the year 1880, 
 and 1 think all that has happened since that time 
 has indicated the importance of our doing what I 
 then said we ought to do, tliat is, to send there the 
 very best man this country can afford, to bend his 
 mind to the consideration of tho.se matters in which 
 the interests of the (me country are atl'ected by the 
 action of the other, in which Canadian interests 
 are affected by what is being done and what 
 is being said in Washington. I thought then, and 
 I think now, that it is important that there should 
 bo always a free and responsible Canadian nio- 
 dium for the interchange of opinion with the 
 Wasiiington authorities in regard to Canadian in- 
 terests. I believe that, if that plan were adopted 
 in regard to a country wliich, to adopt the 
 language of the hon. moniber for Northuniborland 
 (Ml'. Mitclioll), is so much governed by newsjiapers, 
 misunderstandings would not occur, difHculties 
 would be explained, the path would be made easier 
 in many ways in regard to our various rela- 
 tions with the States. This Hou.so is now sit- 
 ting, and it may perhaps have a function to dis- 
 charge in regard to this matter. My opinion 
 is that tiie function would lie best di-scharged by 
 the appointment of aSolei't Coiiimitteo; but, if you 
 are going to accept (hi. oiiggostion of the First 
 Minister in regard to this Bill, it will either bo 
 necessary to interfere with the precedents and 
 practice of Select Committees on Bills, or, in .some 
 extraonlinary way, by giving some s])e"ial autho- 
 rity or instruction to the Coiiiniittee, to enable 
 tlieni to make a finding in this regard, otherwise 
 you will find, when the report comes back, that it 
 will not be what you expect. 
 
 Ottawa :— Printed by Bkown Chamberlin, Printfsr to the (Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
Ha 
 
 fiouse of Commons B abates 
 
 FOURTH SESSION — SIXTH PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON 
 
 SAWDUST IN RIVERS. 
 
 TUESDAY, 29th APEIL, 1890. 
 
 Mr. liLAKE. I agree with a good deal of what 
 has been said hy tlie hon. meinlier wlio has just 
 taken his seat (Mr. Ives). I tliink some confusion 
 exists as to tlie matter, i)ecause it lias been appar- 
 ently considered that a proceeding which is based 
 on the one statute is to be dependent in part on 
 the provisions of another statute. The tiutli is, 
 the proposed legislation which lias been discussed, 
 and which would relieve the hon. the Minister 
 from the invidious distinction with which he is 
 at present invested by making the rule cast iron, 
 is legislation which, as I understand it, would 
 apply only to one set of difficulties, namely, to the 
 difficultiesarising from navigation. IJut the Fishery 
 Act is another statute, with another set of prohi- 
 bitions, and it also reserves its own exeinjjtion power 
 to the Minister ; and, therefore, the proceedings 
 in this case, as I understood them, having been 
 taken only under the Act with respect to navigable 
 rivers, it is beside the question to attempt to 
 discuss whether these proceedings are justifiable 
 under the Fishery Act, or upon tlie ground, for 
 instance, of injury to the fisheries. I call the atten- 
 tion of the Minister to the fact that so long as it is 
 attempted to justify the enforcement of these pi'o- 
 hibitions by reference to the fisliing interests the 
 proposed legislation as to navigation will bo of no 
 consequence, because the Act, which it is proposed 
 to amend, does not authorise any prohibition what- 
 ever in consequence of tlie fishing interests. It 
 deals solely with the interests of navigation ; it is 
 the other statute that deals with the proliiliition as 
 to the fishing interests, and that statute must be 
 dealt with in order to alter, if it is thought desirable 
 to alter, its provisions as to exemption. There was 
 a great deal of good sense in what the hon. mem- 
 ber who has just taken his seat (Mr. Ives) said in 
 respect to the relative importance of the con- 
 flicting interests. I hajmeii to know Mr. Davison, 
 who is an old friend of mine, and early in this 
 Session I was put in possession of the papers in 
 this case, and I expected I would have liad an 
 opportunity of dealing with it w)ien the Bill of 
 the Minister of Marine and Fisiieries was brought 
 up. Since that time my recollection of the facts 
 has somewhat faded away, and I am not able to 
 speak asclearly aslhad hopetl to speak, on this unex- 
 pected occasion. So far as I can remember, whether 
 
 the diminution in the quantity of fish was due to 
 the sawdust oi' no, it seems to me to be ridiculous 
 to conip'vre for an instant the existing condition of 
 the fisliing interests on the LaHave and the existing 
 condition of tlie lumbering interests on that river ; 
 for the lumbering interests as regards the mill 
 owners, the employes, and the pulilic are of such 
 importance tliat the action of the law on the ground 
 of the relatively insignificant fishing interests 
 should not prevail. I agree with the liim. member 
 (Mr. Ives) that, as regards navigable rivers, the 
 interests of navigation are of much higher import- 
 ance and reijuire much more careful consideration. 
 I read tlic evidence on this subject also. There was 
 no doubt some evidence that sawdust had accumu- 
 lated in some parts of the river. There was no 
 doubt evidence that the channel had been to some 
 extent nari'owed, I should judge ; but I did not 
 find, taking the whole evidence, that the naviga- 
 tion of the River LaHave such as it is, and such 
 as I should judge it is' likely to be, is being at this 
 time substantially impeded, for the uses to which 
 it is put, by tho condition of affairs which had 
 been produced by the sawdust ; nor did I find from 
 tlie evidence that there had been, of late years at all 
 events, any great impairment of tlie condition. It is 
 perfectly olivious that the effect of sawdust will 
 depend very mucli on the character of the stream. 
 As the hon. Minister of Justice has said, if we deal 
 with rapidly running rivers, having a great descent 
 and without sinuosities, no doubt tlie sawdust will 
 get away. If, however, the river is somewhat 
 sluggish, and particularly when it is a tidal river 
 with deep bays and eddies, there are abundant 
 points on which the sawtlust will be deposited, 
 for I cannot agree with the hon. member for 
 Cliarlotte (Mr. (iillmor), that the sawdust keeps 
 floating all the time ; but there may be consider- 
 able deposits of sawdust in these bays and deep 
 spots, and yet the average depth of the river may 
 be maintained. There is, of course, no object, for 
 purposes of navigation, in having deep holes in a 
 ri\er. Tlie depth of the channel of a river is its 
 depth at its shallowest point. So if the sawdust 
 simply fills up the holes an<l leave the navigable 
 channel free, of course no damage is done to navi- 
 gation. The general impression I <lrew from the 
 evidence was this, and I state it after the speeches 
 
.J ;• 
 
 
 delivered by the two Ministers, that there was ro 
 
 great imblic iutcreat iinjxM'illed l>y tin- (•f)iitiniuiii(,'e 
 lit the |)i'»;sent time of the state of tilings wliiuli hits 
 been continuing for some time, while it would 
 apjiear tliat very serious inconvenience would 
 result, even if the destruction of tlie entire lumber- 
 ing business would not result, from a severe course 
 being taken in this regard. All I ask now is, tint 
 as we have not had an opportunity of fully diii- 
 cussing this (juestion, wliich we had reason t > 
 expect woultl lie given to us Iiy the (Jovernnient 
 Hill on the ]iaper standing in the name of tlio Min 
 ister of Marine, which, wo understand, will not 
 now be proceeded with, there shall be given a very 
 careful reconsideration of tlie condition of affairs 
 with respect to these rivers on which the lion, tlie 
 Minister is at present enforcing the prohibition ; 
 and that unless it be made upon that reconsidera- 
 tion absolutely jilaiii that such an iiii]iortant inter- 
 est as the navigation interest is about to be seriously 
 interfered with by the continuation of the sysnni. 
 a stay of these vigorous ])rocecdings shoubl take 
 place in the instance which has given rise to this 
 discussion. 
 
 ORDNANCE LANDS. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I think I know something about 
 the claim. The claim arose out of the stijiulation 
 of the original cession, which was jiartly statutory, 
 of this land along the canal l«y Mliicli it was 
 alleged to be on the condition tiiat there should be 
 no l)uildiiigs erected (m it, and that it should liefor 
 the use of the canal only, and there is an allegation 
 that there has been a forfeiture of the allegaticm by 
 the erection of buildings. 1 think those buildings 
 were erected by S()uatters. It nonld be imjiortaiit 
 to know how nuicji of this is f ir law co.sts, and 
 how iimcli for commis.sion on .sale of lands, and 
 who is the seller of the lands and what is the rate 
 pf comiiiission '1 
 
 • Mr. liLAKK. Ls there not a (juestion as to the 
 rtCjiosit on the Logan farm, which the auctioneer 
 retaineil. 
 
 ' Mr. BLAKE. What are we giving commi.ssion 
 for if the aucticmeer retains the .?7,(KMI or .<!8,()00 ? 
 
 Mr. liLAKE. f think the chiim, howevei', ex- 
 tends to a poitioii th;it surrounds the bywash as 
 well as to the otlicr portion. 
 
 ' THE RAILWAY QUESTION. 
 
 Mr. HLAKE. My lion, friend from Nortli Nor- 
 folk (Mr. Charlton) must remember that the jiolicy 
 of the (iovernmeiit according to a statement made 
 by a very imjiortant member of t)u! (iovernment 
 before the last election, so far from parting with 
 these (iovernment railways in the Maritime Pro- 
 viaees, was to increase them by the ])uiclia.sc of 
 th^projierties of private corporations, in order as 
 Sir ("luirles Tup|ier .said in a telegram which I read 
 to the House, that they niigiit both lie run with 
 greater economy and with greater advantage to the 
 public .service. It is true, that policy has not yet 
 been etl'ected ; but we have no doubt whatever that 
 although Sir C'harhs is no longer there, his spirit 
 still prevails, ami that within a reaso'iable time, 
 before the next election, the telegram will again 
 materialise. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I'rojio.sals of this kind have 
 accomplished certain ends on former occasions. 
 There was a fortner occasion when this subject 
 was lirought forward, not on the s\iggestion of a 
 simi>le candidate for a county, no matter how im- 
 
 portant lie iniglit be, but on the formal representa- 
 tion of the most imjiortant man in the Ministry 
 next to the I'rime Minister. It was on the 1 Ith 
 of February, 1SS7, that Sir C'liarles Tupper tele- 
 grajdied to the ))resent lu)n. member, then the can- 
 didate actively canvassing for Albert (Mr. Weldon), 
 as follows ; — 
 
 " I intend to .iiibmit Im my coIlcnKiics a proposal to con- 
 solidate the branch railwiiys with main lino, by which 
 greater economy in aJininistration will be effected, and 
 much greater utility to the country secured." 
 
 'Hiink of it ! The Minister who had been in charge 
 of the Dejiartment of liailways for a long time, 
 and who was then, I think, Minister of Finance, 
 and who therefore had a long ex])erience in the 
 two Departments which most specially fitted him 
 to deal with a matter of this kind- his experience 
 in the Department of Railways having gi\ en him a 
 knowledge of the reipiirements of the railways of 
 the country, and his knowledge of the Finance 
 Dejiartment having iiistruc'ted him in regard to 
 the attention to iie jiaid to tiic finances of the 
 country that Minister, with all that exjierience, 
 and with all that influence, had c<nne -it is true at 
 a late period, it is true at a critical jieriod, it is 
 trie at a jieriod which perhaps did not fit him f( ■ 
 calm consideration of all the fiscal and economical 
 (piestions which were involved, at a period when 
 his judgment might perhajis, to a certain extent, be 
 obscured by other and jiolitical considerations had 
 come — to this conclusion, that the consolidation of 
 the branch raih\ ays with the main line of the In- 
 tercolonial would at once efl'ect greater economy in 
 the administration of the whole and much greater 
 utility to the country ; and he had also coiiu^ to the 
 conclusion that it was his duty to submit tohiscol- 
 leagm^s a projiositioii to accomplish that result. He 
 obtained from the people that measure of jiower 
 vvliich he desired the Ailiiiiiiistration to secure — 
 whether by these or similai- devices it is not material 
 now to consider but he came to this i'ailiainent 
 backed by my hon. fiiiiids o))])osite. many of whom, 
 no doubt, received telegrams, the lion, member for 
 Albert (Mr. Weldon) amongst them. I cannot 
 doubt that Sir Charles Tupper submitted that 
 pi-oposal to the ( !ovciimieiit. I cannot iloubt that 
 the member for Allu^rt pressed upon him to jiress 
 U])on them that tlu' iiropo.sal shoald be carrieil out. 
 I cannot doubt that Sir Charles Til|)jier did all ho 
 could and who coulil do more '; to bring about 
 the redem]ition of the promise w hicli had so suc- 
 cessfully redeemed the County of Albert. 
 
 Mr. IJLAKl']. He had not time enough ! He 
 left his office and the countrv. and the hon. mem- 
 ber for Albert ( ■*'!•. Wcl(h)ii) tells us that foi four 
 years ho has be 'ahoring in that lield which Sir 
 Charles Tupper <; <erted. 
 
 Mr. I'd.AKE. ^Vell, for three years. I recoin- 
 menil the hon. inembei' fur Albert, who now for 
 the first time brings this matter before I'arliamcnt, 
 to continue laboring, with the assurance that it 
 will not be until the time, or about lln' time shortly 
 jireceding the general election, that he may exjiect 
 to reai> a harvest as the result of his labors. 1 do 
 not suppose that he will be now L'ontented ; I 
 hardly expect that the electors of Albert will next 
 time be contented with another telegram, but this 
 time he may jx^ssibly lio))c to get an Order in 
 Council providing for a future consolidation of these 
 railways to be effected if the next elections go right. 
 
 OTTAWA : 
 
 Printed by Brown Chamukrt.in, Prinler to the Queen's 
 
 Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
 J 
 
 \ 
 
mtituam 
 
 House of Commons j9ebate$ 
 
 FOURTH SESSION-SIXTH. PARLIAMENT. 
 
 SPEECHES OF HON. EDWARD BLAKE, M.P., 
 
 ON THE 
 
 SEAMEN'S ACT. 
 
 FJIIDAY, MAY 2Nn, 1890. ' ' 
 
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 \ 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I c|uite agree with the observa- 
 tions of my hon. friend. A nuniher of years ago, 
 I thinit in ISS'i, this chiss of peiscms was subjected 
 to e.xtreinely stringent l(!gishition at the hands of 
 this Pnrliament ; and the legishition was framed 
 witli special reference to a dittieiilty whicii (jiltisted 
 in tiie port of t^luehec. It was tlien ])rovided tiiat a 
 stii)en(iiary magistrate migiit convict without ap- 
 peal, and without anyuietiiod being given for recon- 
 siileration, in cases in which ])enalties of from tMo 
 to ti\ e j'ears' imprisonment in iicuilcntiary could be 
 intlieted. Upon that occasion I was unsuccessful 
 in endeavoring to secure a trial by jury to perstms 
 who were subjcctc ' to so grave a |)iiialty. It was 
 upon tile l.")th of May, bSS'J, that the Dili to amenii 
 the Seamen's Act of 1S73 was moved by the right 
 hon. the First Minister, seconded by Sir Leonard 
 Tilley ; and U])on the second reading I moved, 
 secondjd by the iioii. memlier for Hothwell, to 
 recomi lit the i>ill to the Committee of the Whole 
 Hon ;e with instructions to amend the .same, so as 
 to judvide for a trial by jury of any jiersmi liable 
 to be sentenced, under the said IJill, to from two 
 to live years' imiiri.somueiit in the peiiiteiitiaiy. 
 My motion was defeated upon that occasion, as, 
 I presume, any like ell'ort will be upon this, the 
 ground given for the exceptional rigor of the jiro- 
 eedure, which deprives the parties aceu.sed 
 of those securities that exist in ordinaiy 
 cases, \ieiiig the transitory nature of t le occu- 
 pation of the parties who would be the [irincipal 
 witnesses, and the fact that the oll'ence having 
 generally to be proved by captains and crews of 
 ships, an appeal Wdulil mean a defeat of justice. I 
 caniiot reconcile to myself the view that the cir- 
 cumstance that there is a ditliculty in prosecuting 
 an appeal successfully , sliould leave the party accus- 
 ed without some protection .igainst thepo.ssdile in- 
 justice of the primary and .sole tribunal analogous to 
 that which exists in other ea.ses. It may recpiirc 
 some sjjccial legislation as to expedition of the trial, 
 some special legislation as to the facility of taking 
 and recording evidence ; but I hold that that pro- 
 tection which the subject at large has against injus- 
 
 1 tiee inflicted by primary magistrates, should, inaome 
 
 ■ shape or other, be given to the class of subjects 
 
 treate<l in this Hill as well as to Ihe othei's ; and I 
 
 maintain that the simple alleviation which the 
 
 Minister rigiitly ])roposes in this liill, and which 
 
 , restores to the subject in thiscasetherighttoa'''')Yio- 
 
 rari, is but an imperfect and inadeipiate alleviation ; 
 
 '. that while other classes of subjects, convicted 
 
 1 before magistrates, of the same class of offences, of 
 
 tiie same de.scri))tion and gravity, to ))unislinient 
 
 of the same kind, have other means of redress, we 
 
 i ought not to limit this jiarticular class to the inade- 
 
 j (plate, ])artial, incomplete, ami oftentimes wholly 
 
 I abortive remedy of a '■< rtiorari. 
 
 I 
 
 j MoND.w, "itli May. 
 
 .Mr. BLAKK. I wish to say a word with refer- 
 ence to this ])roposed amendment in renewal of the 
 discussion wiiicli took place tiie oth.er day. As I 
 understund the Act w^hicii the present liill is pro- 
 poseil to amend, it has reference only to the inland 
 waters and does not a))ply to ocean voyages ; at 
 any rate it does ap])ly to the inland waters. The 
 great bulk of vessels engaged on inlaiiil voyages 
 are engaged on a regular cour.se, in sailing from point 
 ti point, and the extreme voyage is, I think, two 
 or three weeks in lengtii, from Lake Su|)erior 
 ilownward to the jiort of Kingston, and return. 
 'I'liere is, therefore, with reference to tlie bulk of 
 tile eases, an opportunity of reai-hing once again a 
 point at whicli tlie <litliculty arises within a very 
 short tinu', and if I am rightly intormed, the 
 bulk of cases which come under the ])rovisions of 
 this Act, arise in the \\'elland Canal, about mid- 
 way in the voyage. I make this statement be- 
 cause it seems to me to be not unimportant to con- 
 sider whether there is, in any jjoint of view, an 
 absolute necessity for what I must call a denial of 
 justice. I think there is in no ea.se such an abso- 
 lute necessity as that you should wholly deny 
 justice, but I .say that here the inconvenience which 
 is suggested as a cause for the denial of justice, is 
 a minor degree of inconvenience altogether, and 
 
that, by the adoption of the right of appeal with 
 reference to tlie inland voyage, possibly with some 
 furtlier precautions, possibly witii some pre- 
 cautions as to the facilities for taking and recording 
 ,fivi«le\ice' for nae on the appeal, ftud with Boino 
 other jytotifeions suitable to tlie case, wi covUd 
 overcome any of those difficulties and prevent the 
 risk of gi'osa injustice resulting. We have found 
 it necessary to establisli appeals from courts com- 
 posed of judges of great exj)erience, of great 
 dignity, of much learnirig, who discharge their 
 business in the light of day, with the assistance 
 of trained advocates, and with all the advantages, 
 and also with all the cliecks and precautions, which 
 the , ordinary course of a puldic court provides. 
 Ttow much more important it is tliat we should, 
 with respect to magistrates such as tliose who are 
 called upon to deal with the cases, give some 
 better (jjiportunity than a certiorari gives — we all 
 know how very poor and narrow that remedy is — 
 against the injustice which such a magistrate may 
 commit. A case wliich has been laid before me, 
 and, I think, it is a case which has Ijeen laid 
 before the Minister of Justice also, I bring before 
 the notice of the House as the kind of thing 
 which may happen, because it is a kind of thing 
 which has happened under tlie law, and is not 
 remedied under the law as it will l)e altered by 
 this Bill. At a certain time the person of whom I 
 am speaking was summoned to appear before the 
 police magistrate at Port Coll)orne, chai'ged with 
 the offence of persuading, or trying to persuade, the 
 crew of a schooner to leave or quit their work. 
 He appeared, and asked that the case might be 
 adjourned till the next day in order to secure the 
 services of a lawyer ; but that was refused, and the 
 magistrate declared that the case must proceed at 
 once. The captain, who swore ovit the warrant, 
 could give no direct evidence that he had seen the 
 person either on board the vessel or talking to the 
 men. The men were necessarily sent for, aiul 
 when they were summoned, they were asked 
 whether they were lunler articles, and they 
 proved that they were not under articles, in 
 which case the Act had really no application 
 whatever. The individual charged then de- 
 manded to be acquitted, but the magistrate 
 determined that he must be ccmvicted, and he sen- 
 tenced hii" to gaol for one month at liard labor. 
 He said to the magistrate that he would appeal, 
 but tlie magistrate told him there was no 
 appeal for him. He telegrajihed for the assistance 
 of a lawyer, and the lawyer came down the next 
 day. He saw him. The lawyer told him there was 
 no appeal under the law. An elTort was made to get 
 a copy of the evidence, but there was great diffi- 
 culty in jirocuring it, and a tlireat had to be made 
 to proceeil against the magistrate before even a 
 copy of the evidence could be procured and sent 
 to the Law Clerk at VVelland, and then it was made 
 clear that there was no appeal or redress. That is 
 the state of things, I am informed, which has 
 happened under the Act, and that state of things 
 may happen under the Act notwithstanding this 
 amendment. It seems to be a blot upon the admin- 
 istration of justice that such a condition of things 
 should continue, and, so tliinking, I propose to vote 
 for tlie ameninient, in the hope that, with certain 
 jjrecautions, it may be effectual. 
 
 Sir JOHN THOMPSON. I should like to ask 
 if the hon. member is sure that the Act only 
 
 applies to inland waters? I was so informed, but 
 that is a mistake. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The law to which I referred was 
 confined to the waters about Quebec, and it was 
 Bo stated at the toftinienceraent of the statute. 
 
 Sir" JOHN THOMPSON. It is an Act relating 
 to the siiipping of seamen. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I was told that there was a 
 statute that did so confino it. 
 
 Sir JOHN THOMPSON. I, also, was so in- 
 formed, but 1 was informed incorrectly. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. There is a statute which con- 
 tains these provisions. 
 
 Sir JOHN THOMPSON. Not that which con- 
 tains the jirovisions we are amending. This is an 
 Act in regard to the shipping of seamen, and it 
 refers to sea-going HJiips as well. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. If that l)e so, all the okservations 
 I made as to the inland voyage would apply to 
 this proposed aniendinent, and the change might 
 be left to the inland voyage, the outgoing voyage 
 being left as it is. 
 
 BILLS OF EXCHANOE AND PROMISSORY 
 
 NOTES. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I would not object to a provision 
 that if we limit the time to a very short time after 
 the drawing of tlie che(jue within which to ascertain 
 whether it was a forgery, a notice should be given 
 to th^bank. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I move " that the amendment be 
 further ameiuled by leaving out all the words after 
 "one" down to "payment" and inserting the 
 words, "a month after he has acquired notice of 
 such forgery." 
 
 Sir JOHN THOMPSON. Before the question 
 is taken I would like to say tliat, for my part, I 
 would be quite willing to adopt that amendment. 
 Instead of going to the trouble of taking a vote, 
 I would like to liave some expression of opinion 
 from hon. gentlemen on the matter. 
 
 Mr. WELDON (St. John). I think that amend- 
 ment seems to meet the case. 
 
 Mr. C'HARLTOX. I would prefer to have the 
 amendment dropped out altogether, and leave the 
 law as it formerly stood. 
 
 General LAURIE. I should prefer to see the 
 clause dropped out altogether. 
 
 Mr. TISDALE. So should I. 
 
 General LAURIE. The system at present pre- 
 vailing has worked exceedingly well in the past, 
 especially for those who live at long distances from 
 banks. Our only means of paying accounts has ' 
 been by sending chccjues, and we have had to trust 
 to parties receiving them endorsing the cheque as 
 a receipt. I have \ery much to regret that any 
 other plan should be adopted. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. I hope the hon. gentleman will 
 see that the proposed ainciidment is not open to 
 this objection. The amendment is : that if you 
 have acquired notice of tlie fact that the cheque is 
 forged, you ought, within a month, to give notice 
 to the bank. You are not to hold it in your 
 pocket for five years and eleven months. 
 
lan will 
 open to 
 if you 
 lieque is 
 >e notice 
 |in your 
 
 Mr. TISDALE. This amendment is sure to lead 
 to a great deal of trouble and confusion as to what 
 notice is. I think the safer way is to leave the 
 law as it stands at jiresent, 
 
 Mr. WHITE (Kinfrew). My opinion is, tliat if 
 the drawer of a chiuiuc nets notice of a forged en- 
 dorsement, hv is not likily to keep it in liis posses- 
 sion for five yours and eleven months. He is more 
 than likely to give tlte hank notice just as soon as 
 it comes to hi> knowK-dge that the cheque is forged. 
 But the law as it lias stood heretofore seems to 
 have worked witiiout any considerable friction, 
 and, for my part, I would prefer leaving it as it is, 
 and striking out the Senate amendment altogether. 
 
 Mr. BOYLE. I prefer tlie amendment of the 
 hon. member for West Durham to tlie j)roposition 
 of the hon. Minister of Justice, but I prefer the 
 old law to either of them. But I am in this diffi- 
 culty, that by voting for tlie amendment of the 
 hon. member for West Durham, I would conunit 
 myself to the amendment of the hon. Minister of 
 Justice. Under tliese circumstances, I feel that 
 the only safe course for me to take will be to vote 
 against the amendment of the hon. member for 
 West Durham and also against the jiroposition of 
 the hon. Minister of Justice. The law has worked 
 so well that I think no change should be made, 
 unless some improvement on tliis amendment is 
 proposed. 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman will observe 
 that Ijy voting for my amendment, M'hich he pre- 
 fers, he may carry it ; and after carrying it, he is 
 (juite at liberty to vote against the amendment as 
 
 amended ; whereas, if he votes against my amend- 
 ment, he may have the worse proposition carried, 
 instead of the better. 
 
 Mr. WELDON (St. John). A eheipie payable 
 to order is really an innovation. The effect of the 
 amendment will be that the bankers, to protect 
 themselves, will revert to the ohl system. 
 
 Mr. DAVIES (P.E.I.) I do not see how anyone 
 can object to the amendment proposed by the hon. 
 member for West Durham. That a man who has 
 drawn a checpie and receives notice that its en- 
 dorsement has been forged, should give the bank 
 notice within a month, is not an unreasonable 
 proposition. There can be no possible injustice to 
 any one in such an arrangement. 
 
 Mr. CHARLTON. Witli regard to the asser- 
 tion of the lion, member for St. John (Mr. Weldon), 
 that clieijues are generally made payable to 
 bearer, my experience lias been quite the reverse. 
 For my part, I never make a checpie payable to 
 bearer, in order to guard tlie interests of the per- 
 s(m who receives the che(iue. The amendment 
 proposed by the hon. member for West Durham is 
 a very great improvement, which I am willing to 
 accept, if afterwards I shall be free to vote to 
 leave the law as it was before. I would ask 
 whether we can do that ? 
 
 Mr. BLAKE. C'ertaiuly. If my amendment 
 were carried, the clause as amended would be 
 before the House, and the hon. gentleman could 
 vote yea or nay on the clause. 
 
 Amendment of Mr. Blake agreed to. 
 
 OTTAW^A :— Printed by Brown Chamberlin, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty. 
 
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