IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 V 
 
 /. 
 
 // 
 
 *^ Wj- 
 
 V 
 
 cp- 
 
 W.r 
 
 i< 
 
 Ua 
 
 (/. 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 ^mk 1112.5 
 
 IIIIIM |||||2^ 
 
 m '""^ 
 iis mil 2.0 
 
 1.8 
 
 U 111.6 
 
 /a 
 
 & 
 
 //, 
 
 /y 
 
 ■c>, 
 
 <S>1 
 
 
 >/ 
 
 o 
 
 7 
 
 /A 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 ^ 
 
 ■n>^ 
 
 :\ 
 
 \ 
 
 % 
 
 v 
 
 <f> 
 
 ^v 
 
 ^ 
 
 ^ 
 
 
 %^ 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, NY. )4S80 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
CIHM/ICMH 
 
 Microfiche 
 
 Series. 
 
 CIHM/ICMH 
 Collection de 
 microfiches. 
 
 Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques 
 
 1980 
 
Technical and Bibliographic Notes/Notes techniques et bibliographiques 
 
 The Institute has attempted to obtain the best 
 original copy available for filming. Features of this 
 copy which may be bibliographically unique, 
 which may alter any of the images in the 
 reproduction, or which may significantly change 
 the usual method of filming, are checlted below. 
 
 D 
 D 
 D 
 
 D 
 D 
 
 D 
 
 Coloured covers/ 
 Couverture de couleur 
 
 Covers damaged/ 
 Couverture endommagde 
 
 Covers restored and/or laminated/ 
 Couverture restaur6e et/ou pellicul6e 
 
 □ Cover title missing/ 
 Le titre de couverture manque 
 
 □ Coloured maps/ 
 Cartes gdographiques en cauleur 
 
 □ Coloured ink (i.e. other than blue or black)/ 
 Encre de couleur (i.e. autre que bleue ou noire) 
 
 □ Coloured plates and/or illustrations/ 
 Planches et/ou illustrations en couleur 
 
 D 
 
 Bound with other material/ 
 Reli6 avec d'autres documents 
 
 Tight binding may cause shadows or distortion 
 along interior margin/ 
 
 La reliure serr6e peut causer de I'ombre ou de la 
 distortion le long de la marge intdrieure 
 
 Blank leaves added during restoration may 
 appear within the text. Whenever possible, these 
 have been omitted from filming/ 
 II s«:) peut que certaines pages blanches ajouties 
 lor d'une restauration apparaissent dans le texts, 
 rrista, lorsque cela dtait possible, ces pages n'ont 
 p<.j 6t6 film6es. 
 
 Additional comments:/ 
 Commentaires suppl6mentaires: 
 
 L'Institut a microfilm^ le meilleur exemplaire 
 qu'il lui a 6t6 possible de se procurer. Les details 
 de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-dtre uniques du 
 point de vue bibliographique, qui peuvent modifier 
 une image reproduite, ou qui peuvent exiger une 
 modification dans la mdthode normale de filmage 
 sont indiqu6s ci-dessous. 
 
 □ Coloured pages/ 
 Pages de couleur 
 
 □ Pages damaged/ 
 Pages endommagdes 
 
 I I Pages restored and/or laminated/ 
 
 D 
 
 Pages restaurdes et/ou pellicul6es 
 
 Pages discoloured, stained or foxed/ 
 Pages ddcolordes, tachetdes ou piqudes 
 
 Pages detached/ 
 Pages ddtachdes 
 
 I I Showthrough/ 
 
 Transparence 
 
 □ Quality of print varies/ 
 Qualiti indgale de I'impression 
 
 I I Includes supplementary material/ 
 
 Comprend du matdriel supplementaire 
 
 Only edition available/ 
 Seule Edition disponible 
 
 Pages wholly or partially obscured by errata 
 slips, tissues, etc., have been refilmed to 
 ensure the best possible image/ 
 Les pages totalement ou partiellement 
 obscurcies par un feuillet d'errata, une pelure, 
 etc., ont 6t6 film^es d nouveau de fapon d 
 obtenir la meilleure image possible. 
 
 Bl 
 
 This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ 
 
 Ce document est filmi au taux de rMuction indiqud ci-dessous. 
 
 10X 
 
 14X 
 
 18X 
 
 22X 
 
 7 
 
 26X 
 
 30X 
 
 12X 
 
 16X 
 
 20X 
 
 24X 
 
 28X 
 
 32X 
 
The copy filmed here has been reproduced thanks 
 to the generosity of: 
 
 Saint John Regional Library 
 
 L'exemplaire filmd fut reproduit grdce d la 
 g6n6rosit6 de: 
 
 Saint John Regional Library 
 
 The images appearing here are the best quality 
 possible considering the condition and legibility 
 of the original copy and in keeping with the 
 filming contract specifications. 
 
 Original copies in printed paper covers are filmed 
 beginning with the front cover and ending on 
 the last page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, or the back cover when appropriate. All 
 other original copies are filmed beginning on the 
 first page with a printed or illustrated impres- 
 sion, and ending on the last page with a printed 
 or illustrated impression. 
 
 The last recorded frame on each microfiche 
 shall contain the symbol ^^ (meaning "CON- 
 TINUED"), or the symbol V (meaning "END"), 
 whichever applies. 
 
 Les images suivantes ont 6t6 reproduites avec le 
 plus grand soin, compte tenu de la condition et 
 de la nettetd de l'exemplaire filmd, et en 
 conformity avec les conditions du contrat de 
 filmage. 
 
 Les exemplaires originaux dont la couverture en 
 papier est imprim6e sont filmds en commenpant 
 par le premier plat et en terminant soit par la 
 dernidre page qui comporte une empreinte 
 d'impression ou d'illustration, soit par le second 
 plat, selon le cas. Tous les autres exemplaires 
 originaux sont filmds en commenpant par la 
 premidre page qui comporte une empre:»te 
 d'impression ou d'ill'jstration et en terminant par 
 la dernidre page qui comporte une telle 
 empreinte. 
 
 Un des symboles suivants apparaitra sur la 
 dernidre image de cheque microfiche, selon le 
 cas: le symbole ^^-signifie "A SU^VRE", le 
 symbole V signifie "FIN". 
 
 Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at 
 different reduction ratios. Those too large to be 
 entirely included in one exposure are filmed 
 beginning in the upp»r left hand corner, left to 
 right and top to bottom, as many frames as 
 required. The following diagrams illustrate the 
 method: 
 
 Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre 
 filmds i des taux de reduction diffdrents. 
 Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre 
 reproduit en un seul cliche, il est film6 d partir 
 de Tangle supdrieur gauche, de gauche d droite, 
 et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre 
 d'images ndcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants 
 illustrent la m6thode. 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 3 
 
 4 
 
 5 
 
 6 
 
f 
 
 "ERENCE 
 
 investigation" 
 
 ' ROM THE ROOM 
 
 / 
 
 \ 
 
 INTO THE 
 
 ruble A. G. 
 
 CHARGES PREFERRE 
 
 BY 
 
 ■'» *:. 
 
 '■t 
 
 DE. ATKINSON 
 
 ■".90. 
 
 d by 
 *'lair, 
 
 ley 
 
 IS 
 
 AGAINST THE 
 
 HONORABLE A. G. BLAIK 
 
 ON THE 
 
 3llf.n3 EIGHTH DAY OF APRIL, 1890. 
 
T^-, 
 
 RA FDR REFERENCE 
 
 32^.273 Adult 
 Bla 
 
 NOT TO BE TAKEN FROM TP.E ROOM 
 
 C. l^\. 
 
 .■- f" ■ ■ i .'1 :, ■;•• 
 
 INVESTIGATION 
 
 Into the Charges Preferred by Br. Atkinson Against the Honorable A, 0, 
 Blair on the Eighth day of April, A. D.^ 1890. ,' •' i'"- 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY, 
 
 Ninth day op April, A. D. 1890. 
 
 The Committee appointed to investigate the charges preferred by 
 Dr. Atkinson, a member of the House, against the Honorable A. O. Blair, 
 met this ninth day of April, 1890, at ten p. m. 
 
 Present : Hon. !Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Wilson, Dr. Atkinson, Mr. Phinney 
 and Mr. Hetherington. ' '*''• 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell takes the chair. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Wilson was requested to act as 
 Chairman. 
 
 Mr. Wilson takes the chair. 
 
 On Motion of Hon. Mr. Mitchell, seconded by Mr. Hetherington, 
 
 Hesolved, That Mr. W. H. Fry be appointed as Official Reporter of 
 the proceedings ot this Committee. 
 
 On Motion of Hon. Mr. Mitchell, seconded by Dr. Atkinson, 
 
 Resolved, That Mr. Richards act as Secretary to the Committee. ■ ■• ' 
 
 Moved by the Hon. Mr. Mitchell, seconded by Mr. Phinney, 
 
 Resolved, That the Reporter be instructed to make seven copies of 
 the resolution referred to the Committee by the House. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson aeks permission to be heard by Counsel, and asks that 
 Mr. Haniugton bo such Counsel, tieave granted. The Chairman then 
 reads the resolution referred to Committee as follows : 
 
 On motion of M. C. Atkinson, seconded by Mr. Turner, 
 Heaolved, That M. C. Atkinson, a member of this House, having 
 suced in his place that he is credibly informed and believes that he 
 can establish by satisfactory evidence that in anticipation of the 
 General Provincial Elections held in January last, an agreement or ar> 
 rangement was entered into by the Honorable Andrew Q. Blair, Attor- 
 ney General and leader of the Government, and one James D. Leary and 
 other persons interested in the making by and procuring from the 
 Goveromenc to said J. D. Leary a cootraot for the construction of 
 
./ 
 
 docks and harbor improvemeDts in the City of Saint John, whereby the 
 eaid J. D. Leary, by himself and his agents, or such other persons 
 agreed to furnish a large sum of money to assist and aid the said Andrew 
 G. Blair and his colleagues in securing their elections, and the election 
 of some of his supporters in consideration that the Provincial Govern- 
 ment would enter into and deliver to the said J. D. Leary, or in his 
 name, a contract for the construction of certain dock and harbor im> 
 provements in the said City of Saint John : That the Honorable 
 Andrew G. Blair, under the said arrangement did by himself and his 
 agents, receive from the said J. D. Leary and his agents a large sum 
 of money, to-wit : Several thousands of dollars to aid him and his 
 supporters in the elections at the said General Election on the under- 
 standing that the said J. D. Leary should receive the contract for 
 said docks and works, and the contract between the government and the 
 said J. D. Leary for said docks and works, dated the seventeenth day of 
 January last, was delivered to said J. D. Leary's agent, or some one 
 or other person aforesaid, alleged as interested in said contract, upon 
 such payment being made and in consideration thereof and in connec- 
 tion therewith ; 
 
 And Whereas, The said Andrew G. Blair is desirous that the said i 
 
 Committee be appointed without delay, and the inquiry into the said 
 charge proceeded with immediately ; 
 
 There/ore Resolved, That a committee consisting of five members of 
 this House be appointed to inquire into the said charge against the 
 said Andrew G. Blair, and into all the facts and circumstances con- 
 nected with the matter of the said charge, with power to send for per- 
 sons, papers and records, and to examine witnesses under oath agree- 
 ably to the provisions of the Statute and Act of Assembly in such case 
 made and provided, and all other powers thereunto belonging, and with 
 instruction to report in full the evidence taken be'^ j the Committee 
 and their opinion thereupon and all the proceedings of said Committee. 
 
 Ordered that seven copies of the evidence be furnished the Committee. 
 
 Mr. Haningtou submitted a list of the following witnesses, and asked 
 that subpoenas be issued for their attendance : 
 
 M. George Murphy, of the firm of Kelly & Murphy, St. John. *i' , 
 
 John Kelly of the same firm. 
 
 George L Gunter of Fredericton. 
 
 William Berry, formerly a clerk to Mr. Gunter, of Fredericton, 
 
 Jeremiah H. Barry of Fredericton. 
 
 Moved by Mn Phinuey, seconded by Mr. Hetherington, that the 
 
eubpoBDas for i<aid Kelly and Murphy be issued immediately, and sent 
 to the Sheriff of Saiot John ; and that the Secretary wire the Sheriff 
 of Saint vohn that such subpoenas would be in the mail and to have 
 them served immediately, and fur the Sheriff of Saint John to wire the 
 Secretary immediately on the service of said subpoenas. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell moved, seconded by Mr. Hetherington, that sub- 
 poenas be issued to all the parties named returnable on Friday next at 
 ten a. m. 
 
 The Committee then adjourned to meet at ten a. m. on Friday, April 
 llth. 
 
 ( 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, ■ '* ' • -^v '■ ) 
 
 Friday, April llth, A. P. 1890, 
 
 Met pursuant to adjournment at ten a. m. 
 
 Present : Mr. Wilson, Chairman ; Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Hether- 
 ington, Mr, Phinney and Dr. Atkinson. 
 
 The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. 
 
 Dr. Pugsley requested leave to appear as Counsel tor Mr. Blair. 
 Leave granted. 
 
 The Secretary then read the follov/ing papers : 
 
 " St. John, N. B., April 10, 1890. 
 " To John Richards : 
 
 "Deputy served Kelly 11 o'clock. Murphy in Sussex. Expected 
 down this afternoon. Will be at train to meet him. Kelly demands 
 expenses. Have sent him five dollars. Shall I increase it. Also how 
 much to Murphy if see him. Jas, A. Harding." 
 
 " St. John, N. B., 10th April, 1890. 
 
 " Dear Sir, — I received yours enclosing subpoenas for Messrs. 
 Kelly and Murphy. I sent Mr. Rankine off at once to serve the same. 
 At five minutes to 11 o'clock he found him and gave him the subpoena 
 addressed to him, and he spoke about expenses. I sent a f 5 note 
 over and he said it was not enough. On receipt of your telegram 1 
 gave Mr. Rankine another |5 to give him. Mr. Murphy is, I am told, 
 at Sussex or up the line, as we call it here, and is expected down this 
 p. m., and he will then be served and $10 given him for his expenses. 
 Hoping to possibly be able to write more fully later on and to then send 
 you full returns. 
 
 " I am yours, with respectsj 
 
 James A. Habdino.'^ 
 John Richards, Esq., House of Assembly," 
 
 1 
 
6 
 
 and stated to the Committee tbat acting under instruotions he had 
 wired the Sheriff to tender Mr. Kelly and Mr. Murphy such reasonable 
 expenses as he thought would be right. 
 
 The Secretary, in response to Mr. Hanington, stated that all the 
 witnesses v^ere present except Mr. Murphy. 
 
 Mr. Hanington said he did not wish to delay the proceedings of the 
 Committee ; but the gentleman whom he wished to first examine was 
 not present, and therefore under his instructions he would ask that 
 Committee should not proceed to examine witnesses till after the ex- 
 amination of Mr. Murphy. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell moved, seconded by Mr. Hetherington, that the 
 Committee proceed at onoe with the examination of witnesses. 
 
 Mr. Hanington said that as the witness he had first asked to be sub- 
 poeaned was not present, and as he desired to proceed with the examina- 
 tion, in that course most reasonable to substantiate the charge made, he 
 should be allowed the liberty of calling the witnesses and laying the 
 foundation of the evidence as he thought best. Were the witnesses to 
 be examined in any other course, it would affect and would prejudice 
 the enquiry, upd he therefore objected to being forced to take witnesses 
 out of the order planned out. 
 
 Mr. Pagsley said that as the matter had been brought on at a late 
 stage of the session, it was desirable there should be no delay in pro- 
 ceeding to examine the witnesses. Mr. Hanington could at any stage 
 of the proceedings, if he found he had not fully examined any witness, 
 bring the matter to the attention of the Committee when they could 
 deal with it in the exercise of their discretion but he must object to 
 any delay. 
 
 Mr. Phinney said that the question as to the period of time at which 
 the Committee sat in the session had nothing to do with the question. 
 The question was one of importance as to the order in which witnesses 
 should be called, and he believed thai the proper course to pursue 
 would be to adjourn till the arrival of Mr. Murphy. The present hear- 
 ing was not like that in a court of law where fourteen days notice of 
 trial was given and where the Counsel could command the attendance 
 of witnesses at a certain stage of the case. Here the matter was being 
 hurried too much, and he should feel disposed to permit the delay 
 necessary to obtain the witness first required by Mr. Hanington. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell expressed bis view as being in favor of proceeding 
 immediately. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington similarly expressed himself. 
 
The qaestioD having been debated for some time, 
 
 Mr. Pbinney moved, seoonded by Dr. Atkinson, the following 
 amendment : 
 
 Whereas, The proseoator, Mr. Atkinson, and his Counsel have stated to 
 the Committee that they desire to call Mr. M. George Marphy as the first 
 witness for the prosecution, and that the said Murphy is not present 
 because of his having been subpoeaned only last evening, and that the 
 prosecution will be prejudiced by being forced to proceed with the 
 testimony of other witnesses in the first instance ; 
 
 Therefore Resolved, That the investigation be further adjourned till 
 this evening at 8 o'clock in order that an opportunity may be given the 
 prosecution to place the said M. O. Murphy on the stand as their first 
 witness if he be then in attendance. 
 
 The amendment on being put was lost. There appearing in favor 
 Messrs. Phinney and Atkinson and against it Messrs. Mitchell and 
 Hetherington — the Chairman casting his vote against the amendment. 
 
 The original motion being put was carried by the same vote reversed. 
 
 George I. Gunter, caUed, Sworn and Examined by Mr. Eanington : 
 
 Ques.- 
 
 Qnes. 
 
 Ann. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Qnes. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. I do. 
 
 -You reside in Fredericton, I think ? 
 How long have you lived here ? 
 I have lived here about forty years. 
 What is your business ? Ans. I keep a livery sta-.ie. 
 What part of the town is your livery stable in ? 
 On Queen Street, just opposite the City Hall. 
 Was that your business on the 16th and 17th of January 
 last ? Ans. Tes. 
 
 Ques. You have in connection with your business an office have 
 you not? Ans. Yes. ' • "' 
 
 Ques. And a safe ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do yon know Mr. M. Geerge Murphy, of the firm of Kelly & 
 Murphy, of St John 7 Ans. I do. 
 
 Ques. How long have yon known Murphy ? 
 Ans. I should think probably about ten years. 
 Ques. Calling your attention to the sixteenth and seventeenth of 
 January last : you remember the election, do you not, that was held in 
 York County ? Ans. I do. 
 
 Ques. The gentlemen running this County at that time on the gov* 
 emment ticket were ? Ans. Mr. Bbir, Mr. Wilson. 
 
Ques. That is the ChairmaD ? Ans. Yes, that is the gentlemaa 
 here and Mr. Bellamy and Mr. Anderson. 
 
 Ques. They were the gentlemen elected ? Ang. I believe so. 
 
 Ques. There was an opposition to them in that election — it was a 
 contested election, was it not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Who were the candidates opposed to them ? Ans. George 
 F. Gregory and William Allen. 
 
 Ques. Was the Mr. Murphy whom you refer to at your place on the 
 16th and 17th January last — I now mean the Mr. Murphy who is a 
 member of the firm of Kelly & Murphy, St. John ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ans. About that time ? Ans. I cannot say in regard to the date. 
 
 Ques. Was he the week before the election 'i Ans. I think he was. 
 
 Ques. Have you any doubt about it ? Ans. He was here. 
 
 Ques. And he came to your place ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did he ask the privilege of putting any parcel into your safe ? 
 
 Ans. He asked me to take care of a parcel for him. 
 
 Ques. That parcel consisted of what ? Aus. I do not know what it 
 was. 
 
 Ques. A valuable parcel was it not? (Objected to on the ground 
 that witness had already stated he did not know what it was). Mr. 
 Hanington presses question. 
 
 Ans. I suppose so, I imagined it was. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him what it was — whether it was 
 a valuable parcel or not ? Ans. I took it, ix. was. 
 
 Ques. From what he said to you? 
 
 Ans. I could not repeat what be said to me. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him it was a valuable parcel ? 
 
 Ans. I thought it was. 
 
 Ques. From what he said ? Ans. Yes, I took it to be so. 
 
 Ques. About what size was the parcel ? ;<.;', 
 
 Ans. I do not know exactly. I did not pay very much attention to 
 it. It might probably be six inches square, or like that. Just an 
 ordinary parcel. I did not take any particular notice of the size of it 
 at the time. 
 
 Ques« What time of day did he put that parcel into your safe ? 
 
 Ans. I think in the evening. 
 
 Ques. What time in the evening ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. About what time ? Ans. It was after tea. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you where he came from? 
 
 I 
 
Adb. I do not think he did. • • ' ' 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him where he had come from ? 
 Ans. No, I did not ask him. 
 
 Ques. Did you or did yon not understand from where he had come 
 from ? Adb. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. (By the Chairman.) Did I understand you to say that you 
 fixed the time he was there ? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Hanington.) Except that it was the week before 
 the election ? Ans. I do not know the time. 
 Ques. Are you positive it was in the week before the election? 
 T know it was before the election. ' •■ '■'■ :' 
 
 Do you not know it was the week before the election ? 
 No, I will not be really positive it was a week before the 
 I do not pay attention to everything of that kind. 
 Have you any doubt of it ? ... 
 
 About it being a week before the election ? ' • 
 
 Yes ? Ans. I am not positive about it. 
 Have you any doubt about it? (Objected to mode of examin- 
 ation — question already fully answered — question not pressed). 
 Ques. That stayed in your safe until when? Ans. I do not know. 
 Did it stay there all night ? Ans. I imagine it did. 
 You did not see it taken out — that is what you mean? 
 No, I did not see it taken out. 
 
 How soon after it was taken out did you know of it? " • 
 I was out of town that day, an<i my clerk, Wiilard Berry, was 
 there then I thiak. I was not there. 
 
 Ques. Did you go anywhere with Murphy ? Ans. Yes, I think I did. 
 I mean the day he came there ? Ans. Yes, I did. 
 Where did you go ? Ans. We went to Blair & Barry's office. 
 Who requested you to go? '• ' ' ;-'; 
 He asked me to show him the way to Blair & Barry's office. '• 
 You went there, did you ? Ana. Yes, I did. 
 Is that the Attorney General Blair's office ? Ans. Yes. 
 And Mr. Barry? Ans. Yes. 
 
 They are in partnership, are they not? ' 'tJ v /A, 
 
 They are said to be. , ^ ' *>■ 
 
 They do business together ? 
 So they say, but I don't know; I never did any business with 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 election. 
 Ques, 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Quea. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 them. 
 Ques. 
 
 It is 80, is it not ? Ans. I am told so and believe so. 
 
10 
 
 Qoes. 1'hat is to the Attorney General's office where jou went ? 
 
 Ads. Yes. 
 
 Ques. He told you he wanted to see the Attorney General ? (Mr. 
 Fugsley interposes — witness did not say so.) 
 
 Ans. No, he did not. 
 
 Ques. What did he tell you ? Ans. He wanted to find the office. 
 
 Ques. That is the Attorney General's office ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you took him down and shewed it to him ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. Did you introduce him to anybody ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You shewed him Blair & Barry's office ? Ans. Yes, I did. 
 
 Ques. Who was there ? 
 
 Ans. I think some young gentleman was there sitting inside 
 the first door you go into. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Barry there ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know that he was there. 
 
 Ques. Do you mean that you have forgotten ? Ans. I did not go in 
 
 Ques. Are you sure about that ? 
 
 Ans. I do not recollect going in. I might have gone in, but I have 
 no recollection of it. I have no recollection of Mr. Barry being there, 
 however. 
 
 QoM. Have you no recollection of seeing Barry there at all ? 
 
 Ans. I have not. 
 
 Ques. Neither that day nor next day ? Ans. No, I have not. 
 
 Ques. Were you in the office that day ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know whether I went inside thd door or not. 
 
 Ques. Were you in the office the next day ? 
 
 Ans. Not that I recollect. 
 
 Ques. I am speaking of Blair & Barry'sofficeorany partof it — were 
 you there the next day 7 Ans. Not that I recollect of. 
 
 Ques. Had he put this parcel into the safe before he went to 
 Barry's office, or did he take it to Blair & Barry's office? 
 
 Ans. He put it in the safe. 
 
 Ques. For how long. Did he tell you ? Ans. He did not say. 
 
 Ques. It was to be in the safe how long ? 
 
 Ans. He said to put it into the safe for safe-keeping, but he did not 
 say for how long it was to stop there. 
 
 Ques. Did he say anything was to happen before he took it away ? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not. 
 
 Ques. You will swear that will yon ? Ans. Yes, I do. 
 
 Qnes. Will you swear yoa did not introdoce him to Barry yourself? 
 
i^*=C?-'' 
 
 . If. |» • ' KV- 
 
 11 
 
 not 
 keif? 
 
 Ads. No, I did Dot. I have do recollectioo about it. 
 
 Qaes. You have do recollectioo of that ? Ads. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you Dot uoderstand. at aoy time, that he wanted to see 
 Mr. Blair or ^r. Barry in connection with the parcel ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Tou don't know of that ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How long did he want it left iD the safe ? 
 
 Ads. Until he called for it. 
 
 Ques. Was he back in your o£5ce again ? Ans. Not that 1 know of. 
 
 Ques. I mean at your place ? 
 
 Ans. He might have been and me not there. 
 
 Ques. Was he there 7 Ans. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Ques. You did not see him ? Aos. I did not. 
 
 Ques. Then if I understaod you rightly, yon swear you were never 
 dowD at Blair &. Barry's office with him except just as you stated ? 
 
 Ads. Just so. 
 
 Ques. Yes ? 
 
 Ans. That is what I stated. I was never there, but that time I 
 spoke of, with him. 
 
 Ques. Do you know at what time he left town? Ans. No, I don't 
 
 Ques. Di( ( he tell you at any time what he did with that parcel ? 
 
 Ads. No. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell yon he was waiting for a message from any per- 
 son ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Was the subject of any papers spoken of to you ? 
 
 kxA. Not to me. 
 
 Ques. To any one in your presence ? 
 
 Ans. No, none at all — no one that I know of nor have I heard any- 
 thing of that kind. 
 
 Ques. Do I understand you rightly when I say that he came to your 
 office and asked you to put that parcel in your safe and then told you 
 he wanted to go to Blair & Barry's office ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not say he wished to see the Attorney 
 General ? Ans. It was Blair h, Barry's office. 
 
 Ques. He did not use Mr. Blair's name except in that connection ? 
 
 Ans. No. 4^*.. 
 
 Ques. He wanted you to show it to him right away ? . 4'*'\> 
 
 Ans. I don't know that he said right away. ' 
 
 Qaes. But you went right away ? Ans. Oh, no. 
 
 Ques. Well, you perhaps looked the safe in the office and then went 
 right away with him ? Ans. Yes. . r .-,;.', ;tr; r 
 
12 
 
 Ques. How long was that after be came to your office? 
 
 Ans. It might be ten minutes or half an hour. 
 
 Ques. You cannot give us any idea which it was ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. So far as you know that was his only business in town, that 
 is to see Blair & Barry's office ? Ans. That's so. 
 
 Ques. When he got through with the business at that office so far 
 as you knew his business was done here ? Ans. Yes, so far as I know. 
 
 Ques. That is what yuu understood from him? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that he did not get through till the next 
 day ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear that Attorney General Blair was out election- 
 eering that day or not ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know and I do not know that I heard it. 
 
 Ques. You did not tell Mr. Murphy so, did you? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that? Ans. Certainly I will swear it. 
 
 Ques. When did you first miss this parcel from your safe? 
 
 Ans. My young man told me he had given it to him. 
 
 Ques. To whom? Ans. To Mr. Murphy. 
 
 Ques. That is Mr. Berry told you so? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. What time did he tell you that? 
 
 Ans. I do uot know, I would not be positive about the time. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not tell you that he gave it to Mr. 
 Murphy the next day? Aus. No, I would not swear he did not say 
 that. . 
 
 Committee adjourned nt ten minutes past twelve, p. m. . 
 
 The Committee resumed at three forty, p. m. The members of the 
 Committee being all present. ..: 7 1-. -: 
 
 Examination of George I. Gunter continued by Mr. Hanington. 
 
 Ques. This forenoon you told us that you could not remember, if I 
 remember it correctly, what time in the afternoon or evening Mr. 
 Murphy came to see you — would you tell me now as near as you can? 
 
 Ans. I told you it was after tea, I think. ■ "/ 
 
 Ques. What time was ib? r- J .r^^.",* 
 
 Ans. It was after tea some time during the evening. 
 
 Ques. Then you told us that within ten minutes or within half an 
 hour you went down to Blair & Barry's office with him — that is cor- 
 rect, is it uot ? Ans. Yes. * 
 
13 
 
 I, if I 
 
 Mr. 
 
 lean? 
 
 Ilf an 
 cor- 
 
 Tbe same evening? Ads. The same evening. 
 Did be tell you what train he came in ? Ana. No. 
 Did you understand irom him what train he came on? 
 No, I did net. 
 If he came in the evening at what time would the train ar- 
 rive? Ans. Somewhere in t^e vicinity of seven o'clock. 
 QutfS. In the evening? Ans. Yes. 
 
 When he came up to your ofSce did he tell you where he 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Did he tell you whether he had been to the betel or not? 
 No, he did not — not that I have any recollection of. 
 
 Then you went with him, you say, to Blair & Barry's oflSce? 
 Yes. 
 
 You found some people in there ? Ans. I think there was. 
 But you have already said there was? Ans. Yes. 
 Well, have you any doubt about it? 
 I think there was. 
 
 Whether Mr. Barry was there or not, you do not know? 
 I cannot recollect whether he was there or not. 
 How is the Attorney General's office arranged there — you 
 know his office well ? Ans. I have been in it, but I don't know if 
 I could describe it very correctlj . 
 
 Ques. When you go in there first, does Blair & Barry sit in the 
 same room ordinarily? Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. You have seen Barry sitting there in his office? 
 Ans. I have seen him in the outside office. 
 
 Ques. Have you seen him sitting at a desk in his office at any time 
 within the last six mouths. Do you know where he sits in the office? 
 Ans. No. . 
 
 Where was he sitting when you saw him ? • 
 
 In the tirst room. 
 
 You were in the first room that evening? Ans. Yes. 
 Then do you mean to tell me you do not know whether Barry 
 was there or not? Ans. I am not positive whether he was there or 
 not. I cannot recollect. 
 
 Ques. You went down to introduce him to Blair & Barry ? 
 Ans. 1 went down to show him Blair & Barry's office. 
 Ques. Did he know Mr. Barry ? *< . 
 
 Ans. I do not know. I don't think so. •.;»>;■>/ t!::; i ,f.tJ^ 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 stopped ? 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Quea. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
14 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from him that b« did not know him r 
 
 Ans. I would not be positive. 
 
 Ques. What do you think about it? 
 
 Ans. I do not know whether he knew hira or not. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him whether he knew Mr. Blair 
 or Mr. Barry, or either one of them? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him whether he did know Mr. Blair 
 and Mr. Barry, or either of them? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Then he watted to be acquainted with them? 
 
 Ans. I don't know. 
 
 Ques. Do you eay he did not give you to understand he wanted to 
 be introduced to them? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Now, don't you know he did ? , 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know he did. 
 
 Ques. Then all he wanted to be done was to shew him the office ; 
 then why did you go into the office ; did you not see a young man 
 there? Ans. Yes, I did. 
 
 Ques. Where did you see him? . ■• 
 
 Ans. I could see him through the door or through the window for 
 that matter. 
 
 Ques. But you said you went into the office a moment ago? 
 
 Ads. I am not positive whether I went into the building or not. 
 
 Ques. Yeur memory is bad as to that? 
 
 Ans. My memory is good as ordinarily. 
 
 Ques. You do not know whether you went into the office or not? 
 
 Ans. I am not positive whether I went into the office or not. 
 
 Ques. Do you tell us that you did not understand from him that 
 he did not know these gentlemen ? 
 
 Ana. I forgot whether he made any mention of that or not. 
 
 Ques. He told you he had business with them ? 
 
 Ans. He went to find their office. 
 
 Ques. To do business with them ? Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand it was on business be wanted to see 
 them? Ans. I took him down there. 
 
 Ques. That night — you took him right down? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you now swear you don't know whether you took him 
 into the office or not? Ans. I am not positive about it. 
 
 Ques. I think you know them well, both Mr. Blair and Mr. Barry ? 
 
 Abb. I am acquainted with them some. 
 
 it 
 di 
 
 COi 
 
15 
 
 )t? 
 that 
 
 see 
 
 him 
 lirry ? 
 
 Ques. Well ? Ans. I am acquainted with them certaiDly. 
 
 Ques. You have kuowo the Attorney General since he was a boy? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Twenty years. Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. How long have you known Mr. Barry. Some eight or tea 
 yciirs, have you not? Ans. Yes, I have. 
 
 Ques. And know them well? 
 
 Ans. I know them to meet them and speak to them, that is all. 
 
 Ques. You have seen thetn in their office and in business and you 
 know them as citizens here ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I was in their office half a dozen times in my 
 life. 
 
 Ques. But you know them well? Ans. Certainly I know them. 
 
 Ques. And you tell me you went there with him without any idea 
 of introducing him? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I went down with him to introduce him. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not? Ans. No, I will not. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that you went down there for that 
 purpose ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that I went down there for that purpose. I 
 went down for the purpose of shewing him their place of business. 
 
 Ques. Then you say that you did not go with him to do anything 
 but for the purpose of shewing him their place of ousiness, and no idea 
 of introducing him to them at all ? Ans. That is right. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand that he did not personally know them? 
 
 Ans. I rather think he told me that. 
 
 Ques. That he did not know them personally? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. And therefore he would want to be introduced to them? 
 
 Ans. I wanted to show him their office. 
 
 Ques. Did you not know he wanted to see them on business? 
 
 Ans. I imagined he wanted to see them on business. 
 
 Ques. And you knowing them yourself, and going with him, would 
 it not be in your mind that he wanted to be introduced to them ? 
 
 Ans. I do nut know ; if they came in my way there I would intro- 
 duce him, certainly. 
 
 Ques. How far is it from your place to their office ? 
 
 Ans. It is about a square from their place to mine — around the 
 corner. 
 
 Ques. About what time in the evening was that? 
 
16 
 
 Ans. Probably about eight o'clock or so. 
 
 Ques. When you went around there did you go into the building 
 or not? Ans. I am not positire whether I w^nt into the building or not. 
 
 Ques. Did yuu see Mr. Murphy again that even! iig? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you see him the next day? 
 
 Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Ques. Not that you remember you mean ; then you did not see 
 him before he went away? Ans. Not that I recollect of. 
 
 Ques. Did you go any where else with him ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Who else was iu the office beside this youug man ; do you 
 know? Ans. No, I don't. 
 
 Ques. You did not see Mr. Murphy with any other person that you 
 remember that day ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. I mean except in your own office ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor the next day ? Ans. Nor the next day. 
 
 Ques. You run a livery stable ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you not also run an express office ? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Why did you not tell me that before dinner ? 
 
 Ans. You did not ask me. 
 
 Ques. Then it appears that unless I ask you a direct (juestion yeu 
 will not answer ; why did you not answer that when I asked you what 
 your business was ? Ans. That has been my business of late dates. 
 
 Ques. I asked you your business on the 16th and 17th January » 
 and you told me you kept a livery stable? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Now it appears you also keep an express office? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I do. 
 
 Ques. You take charge of valuable parcels in connection with that 
 business? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And that is one reason why you keep a good safe? 
 
 Ans. Yes, it is. 
 
 Ques. And when you receive valuable parcels into your safe for 
 safe keeping you put them into that safe? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. You did that with this parcel in that way ? Ans. Yes. . 
 
 Ques. When you received this parcel did you put it into the safe 
 or did he ? 
 
 Ans. I did ; I took it from him and put it into the safe before 
 going to Blair & Barry's office. 
 
 Ques. Having taken it from him, and put it into your safe, you 
 became responsible for its safe keeping ? Aus. I suppose so. 
 
 V 
 
 it 
 
 V( 
 
 bo 
 
 18 
 
17 
 
 for 
 
 Ques. That is part of your business ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then this parcel did not come by express? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. It came by the gentleman bringing it hiuiself, and deposit- 
 ing it there, in this way? Aus. Yes. ■■■■■■■■' 
 
 Ques. You took it into your hands from him? Ans. Yes. * 
 
 Ques. You put it in their accountable for its value? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And took charge of it that way? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And yet you told me before dinner you did not know 
 whether money or not was in it ; now tell me whether or not in the 
 course of business you do not ask as to its value ? 
 
 Ans. I asked him if it was valuable, and he said it was. 
 
 Ques. What value? Ans. He did not say. 
 
 Ques. You asked him if valuable, and he said it was? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not ask him anything as to the 
 value of it ? Ans. No. > 
 
 Ques. Not the slightest ? Ans. No. 
 
 Was there any mark upon it to show its value ? 
 No mark upon it that I seen. 
 
 Ques. 
 Aus. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 No figures upon it ? Ans. No, not to my knowledge. 
 
 I am speaking of the parcel you got from Mr. Murphy, 
 which you became responsible for — you told me you had no idea from 
 its shape or anything upon it what its value was, is that what you say ? 
 Ans. No, not the slightest. 
 
 And you took no means to ascertain ? Ans. No. 
 He told you it was valuable, did he not ? 
 I do not think he put any emphasis upon it. 
 I did not ask you about that ; I ask you if he did not tell 
 you it was a valuable parcel — a very valuable parcel ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think he did. He said it was a valuable parcel. 
 
 He wanted it kept for how long ? Ans. Till he called for it. 
 He did not say the exact time ? Ans, No. 
 When did he say he would probably call for it ? 
 He did not say. 
 
 You took it and became responsible for it and that it should 
 be given to him when he called for it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Can you not tell the Committee whether it was worth $1 or 
 18,000 or can you ? Ans. No, just so. 
 
 Ques. And that is the usual way you do business ? 
 Ans. Well, this was something out of the usual way and ordinary 
 2 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
\ '\ 
 
 l..nm''of ^siness. A parcel coming by express generally baa the value^ 
 put upon it, and they send hills and things that put the value upon it^ 
 but we don't open thera to see. ,, . , . 
 
 Ques. Ordinarily you would get information na to its contents? 
 
 Ans. If it is marked upon it. 
 
 Ques. If I went in there with a package of money would you not 
 ask nio how much was in it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes , and put it on the outside of it. 
 
 Ques. This Avas not in the ordinary way ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did it nr)t come for safe keeping ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You g;)ve no receipt for it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. When that went, or who delivered it, you do not know of 
 your own knowledge? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did "^ Berry tell you ho had delivered it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. He is clerk to you ? Ans. Yos. 
 
 Ques. He had instructions to give it up? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Murphy tell you that he did not want it until 
 the business was satisfactorily arranged ? Ans. He did not. 
 
 Ques. Or no words like? Ans. No, he did not to my knowledge. 
 
 Quos. You will swear he never used a word as to that or when he 
 would probably want it? Ans. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Ques. He never spoke of any business he was here upon ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You understood from him when ho was leaving there that it 
 was to Blair & Barry's he was going and after that he would want the 
 money sometime ? Ans. He said nothing about it to me. 
 
 Ques, But did he not go to Blair & Barry's? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Quos. Yen understood that was his only business? 
 
 Ans. So far as I knew. 
 
 Ques. Then you did not understand from him that as soon as he^ 
 got through with thom he would want this money? , 
 
 Ans. No; I did not understand it that way. 
 
 Ques. When did you understand he would want it? i j 
 
 Ans. Whenever he called for it. • ' 
 
 Ques. And that would depend upon his business in Fredericton, 
 would it not ? ..:,,.,. (i.^ , . 
 
 Ans. I really do not know in what connection it was. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you did not understand from him that 
 this parcel was in connection with his business at Fredericton ? 
 
 Ans. I do not recollect of understanding anything of the kind. 
 
 
19 
 
 lericton , 
 
 liira that 
 id. 
 
 Ques. You did not? Ana. No. , . 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not? - ' . ■ 
 
 Ans. I might have inferred it. ■ 
 
 Ques. Did you not infer from what took place with Murphy that 
 the parcel had reference to his business with Blair & Barry ? (Objected 
 to on the ground that Committee had nothing to do with inferences 
 the witness might have drawn — what was wanted was the facts). Mr. 
 Hanington contended that in an investigation of this kind the declara- 
 tions of the party depositing parcel were admissible. Mr. Pugsley 
 stated that he had already allowed witness to give evidence wholly 
 inadmissible, and ho was willing to allow every latitude in order to 
 adduce the facts of the case ; but having allowed him to state the con- 
 versations, etc., ho (Mr. Pugsley) did not think that the witness 
 should be permitted to give inference. 
 
 The Ch.iirman asked for the opinion of the members of the Com- 
 mittee, whereupon Hon. Mr. Mitchell said th" evidence as to infer- 
 ences was clearly inadmissible. Mr. Hetherington said all the Com- 
 mittee had to deal with was the facts .it present, and they could draAV 
 their own inferences afterwards. Mr. Phinuey said he could not con- 
 ceive that any great harm would result from the admission of the evi- 
 dence, as it was for the Committee to judge of the evidence hereafter, 
 and thought the question a proper oi ). In a case of this kind. Com- 
 mittee not bound to follow strict rules of evidence. Mr. Atkinson 
 said he thought this was a question on which his opinion would not 
 have a great deal of weight, but like Mr. Phinney, he did not see any 
 great objection to the question. 
 
 The Chairman thought it would be a rather strange proceeding if 
 witnesses were allowed to state the inferences they had drawn, and 
 while he admitted that the Committee were not bound by the strict 
 rules of law as to evidence, yet the present question travelled too far, 
 he would therefore give his opinion in favor of ruling question out. 
 
 Question ruled out. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from Mr. Murphy that the parcel 
 had connection with his business here ? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you not yourself open that safe, or when it was open 
 point out that parcel to any individual — just think a little while if you 
 please? Ans. I do not recollect of it. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not? 
 Ans. No, I won't swear I did not. 
 
 a'>. 
 
 ■•■:*■ 
 
 ■f;' 
 
T 
 
 so 
 
 Ques. Did you not whilo the safe door was open say << Look at 
 that, that fixes the election," or words to that effect ? 
 
 Ans. No, I have no recollection of making any statement of that kind. 
 
 Quos. Will you swear you did not use words to that effect i 
 
 Ans. I will swear I did not. 
 
 Ques. Then will you swear that you did not open the safe, or when 
 it was open say to some third party — not Murphy — point out that 
 parcel in your safe ? Ans. No, not that I know of. . 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not i 
 
 Ans. I have no knowledge of It. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not ? Ans. I will not swear I did not. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not understand that parcel had some 
 reference to the then approaching election ? 
 
 (Objected to — immaterial — impressions of witness not admissible 
 and question should be confined to what Murphy said to him as to the 
 parcel). Hon. Mr. Mitchell said if the learned Counsel would strike 
 out " understand " and insert "infer" it would be a similar question 
 to that already ruled on and the same principles applied to all that class 
 of evidence. Mr. Hetherington was of the same opinion. Mr. 
 Phinney thought if the learned gentleman would narrow it down to 
 designate the party from whom he had the information it would be 
 admissible. Question ruled out. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from what took place at the time 
 that that parcel had connection with, or something to do with the 
 approaching election ? Ans. I ma}' have thought so. 
 
 Ques. Did you not think so ? Ans. I did think so. 
 
 Ques. And did you not think so from what took place with Mr. 
 Murphy and yourself and from what he said ? 
 
 (Objected to. Witness has been allowed to give conversations with 
 Murphy and to state all that Murphy did and question should be con- 
 fined to that. The witness can state all that Murphy told him). 
 
 The Chairman said it seemed to him that if all the facts were 
 brought out Committee could judge for themselves. 
 
 'Mr, Hetherington acquiesced in such view. . - .• ;• 
 
 Mr. Phinney thought it was not in the same category as the last 
 question, the witness from certain facts, etc., had formed an impression 
 which he thought under the circumsunce here was perfectly admissible. 
 
 The Chairman then ruled question out. 
 
 Ques. You thought that parcel, you said, had reference to or was 
 
 Tl f '■■«"> > » 'Wt i ' 
 
'« Look at 
 
 f that kind, 
 ct? 
 
 'e, or when 
 ut out that 
 
 ,r I did not. 
 
 I hud some 
 
 admissible 
 m as to the 
 ould strike 
 ar question 
 
 II that class 
 lion. Mr. 
 
 it down to 
 t would be 
 
 t the time 
 with the 
 
 e with Mr. 
 
 itions with 
 d be con- 
 m). 
 acts were 
 
 ks the last 
 impression 
 Idmissible. 
 
 to or was 
 
 
 21 
 
 ill reference to the approaching election, which was a fair answer; it 
 it was goin^ to have reference to that election don't you think there 
 W118 money in it; did you not think there was money in it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I thought so. 
 
 Ques. Von thought it was ii parcel of money ? 
 
 Alls. Yey, I did, but 1 did not know. 
 
 t^ues. You had not seen the inside of it; I understand that quite 
 well, l)ut you thought thc>ro was money in it and you Imd no doubt of 
 that, had you ? (Objected to; objection withdrawn). 
 
 Ana. No, I had not any doubt of it. 
 
 Ques. JiKst tell nic what it was, and what took place with Mr. 
 Murphy that made you think it was money that was in it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, at lliat time, during an election, kn<jwii:g there wore 
 parties mora or less interested ih politics, and coming the way it did, 
 I thought so, and so was the case, and that there was monoy in it from 
 the wny he cauio and what he did. 
 
 Ques. About bow much, if they were $1 or $2 l)ills; how much 
 money would bo in that package ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever hoar how much was in it? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Coming the way ho did, and then him going down to find 
 out where this Blair & Dany's otHce was, that led you to think there 
 was money in it ? Ans. Y'es. 
 
 (Jues. And that being so, did yon not open your safe and point that 
 parcel out and refer to it to a gentleman as, that that would tix the 
 election? Ans. I remember making no statement like that. 1 shewed 
 it to the young man there with mo. 
 
 (iues. That is Berry ? 
 
 Ans. Yes; and I told him to give it to Mr. Murphy when he 
 called for it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not make some remark to him about it? 
 
 Ans. I might have made some remark al)out it. I might have 
 done so. 
 
 Ques. It was a pretty big package of money if all money and not 
 newspaper? Ans. It is hard to say. 
 
 Ques. Higher than this ? (Inkstand on table in Committee room). 
 
 Ans. It was about six inches or more square. 
 
 Ques. That height and that wide ? (Indicating with pen and ink- 
 stand). Ans. I think so. 
 
tt 
 
 i ! 
 
 
 Quos. Do you often, except from baoka, move as largo a package 
 of money? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Except from banks, do you ? 
 
 Ans. From hunks probably to individuals. Do you mean between 
 individuiils ? 
 
 Ques. Yes? 
 
 Ans. I do nut know that I could say. My experience is short 
 about that. I have only been in the business a short time. 
 
 Quos. Did you uot understand that ho must seo those gentlemen 
 or somebody there before giving it to them ? (Objoctod to). 
 
 Qut's. Did you not understand from Murphy that ho wanted to see 
 some ono at tho »ifiice before he would take the parcel down ? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 did not. 
 
 Quos. Did you understand from him then why ho did not take the 
 parcel down ? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques, Did you drive him down or walk down ? 
 
 Ans. VVd walked down. 
 
 Ques. You were a supporter of tho Attorney General at the 
 election ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And it was openly known that you were friendly ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Arc; you sure that you went out of town tho ne.xt day your- 
 self? Ans. I am not positive, but I think so. 
 
 Quos. Did yon or did you not see Murphy again after you went 
 down to Blair & Barry's with him ? 
 
 Ans. I do not recollect seeing Murphy again, but I could not say 
 for certain ; if my memory serves nie right 1 did not see him again ; 
 I do not recollect seeing hiui. 
 
 Ques. It was reported to you by Berry that this gentleman had 
 come and ij;ot the money ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you lemember what time he told you that ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not know the time. 
 
 Ques. I do not mean the exact time ; would it be the next day or 
 the day after ? Ans. I think the next day. 
 
 Quos. If you wont outof town you might not have been out all the day. 
 
 Ans. I might have been to Marysville or out a short distance ; I 
 have no recollection of that now, as I did not give it very much attention. 
 
 Quos. If you saw Mr. Murphy you do not remember it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not remember it. 
 
 Ques. Did Mr. Barry, the partner of the Attorney General, after- 
 
 ^' 
 
 niiiit 
 
a package 
 
 ,D between 
 
 ce is short 
 
 gentlemen 
 
 uted to see 
 ot take the 
 
 ral at the 
 
 Aus. Yes. 
 t day your- 
 
 yoii weut 
 
 Id not say 
 lim agaiu ; 
 
 eman had 
 
 )xt day or 
 
 the day. 
 stance ; I 
 itteution. 
 
 •al, after- 
 
 
 23 
 
 ■wards speak to you or you to him ou the subject of this business with 
 Murphy, or any subject iu connection with this Murphy business ? 
 ns. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor about the money ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor anything of that kind ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Perhaps I had better ask you this : you say you remember 
 •3ome young man in the office — do you remember who it was ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know whether Mr. Blair's son or whether it was 
 Mr. Wetmorc. 
 
 Ques. There was nobody else there ? 
 
 Ans. I do not recollect of any one else being in there ; there 
 might have been somebody else there, but I do not remember it. 
 
 Ques. And of course how long this gentleman was in Blair it 
 Barry's office you do not know? Ans. No, I do not. 
 
 CJucs. Do you say there was or was not any sum mentioned on 
 this parcel ? 1 think you saiti you did not see any tigures on it ? 
 
 Ans. No, there was ho lignres. 
 
 Ques. There was no figures on it by which you could judge there 
 was money in it ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was a small brown paper parcel or j-.uckage, which 
 was tied up with an ordinary string. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Thinney). Was it sealed up? 
 
 Ans. I did not notice any sealing wax on it. 
 
 Ques. Any label or address ? Ans. I seen nothing on it. 
 
 Ques. (The Chairman). Is it an unusual thing for persons to 
 leave money for safe keeping in this way? Ans. Not at all. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Phinnoy). Wiis this the first time you had mot 
 Mr. Murphy ? Ans. No, I had known him for years. 
 
 Ques. You were well acquainted with him ? ; 
 
 Ans. Very well, 1 did a little business with him. 
 
 Ques. Did you know ho was doing anything in connection with the 
 election business? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Were you a member of the election committee in York ? • 
 
 Ans. I think so, but I never attended any of the meetings. 
 
 Ques. When you felt this parcel did it feel like money ? 
 
 Ans. I did not take notice ; I fancied money was iu it ; it did not 
 rosemble a money package as we generally handle. 
 
 Ques. What do you mean by that ? 
 
 Ans. Money as generally handled through the Express is put into 
 
n 
 
 1 
 
 ' 
 
 
 I 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 r 
 
 an envelope, or in a wrapper from the banks, tied witii a string and 
 sealed, but this was an ordinary paper parcel. 
 
 Ques. Did you take it into your hand and feel it ? 
 
 Ans. I took it into my hand and threw it into the safe. I did not 
 look at it closely . 
 
 Ques. But you had no doubt in youi mind it was money ? 
 
 Ans. I thought it was money. 
 
 Ques. (The Chairman). When you speak of being a member of 
 the election committee, do you mean a member of the executive com- 
 mittee ? 
 
 Ans. No, I think T was appointed in some ward but I never served 
 on any committee. 
 
 Ques. As I understand it when it was announced that an election 
 was coming on you were most of the time in the country till the 
 election ? Ans. Yes, I was billing the County. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Phiiniey). What do you mean by billing the 
 County ? 
 
 Ans. I was out advertising 'political meetings. I was advertising 
 meetings for Mr. Blair and his supporters in the County and arranging 
 for halls, etc. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Atkinson). What made yon think the parcel con- 
 tained money ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know. The circumstances surronndino' the thine: 
 made mo think so. If I had picked up that parcel on the street I 
 would likely have thrown it away. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Hanington). It did not Iooa like cash ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Mitchell). The very fact of his coming to you and 
 asking you to put it into your safe would lead you to think so ? 
 
 Ans. That's the idea, exactly. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Hanington). The package was done up so that if 
 a person saw it on' the cars it would not be supposed it contained 
 money ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don'i think any one would take it for a money package. 
 If you saw it lying on the street you would take it for a brick. 
 
 Ques. It >vould not excite suspicion ? 
 
 Ans. It might on the lirst of April but that would bo the only 
 occasion. 
 
 Ques. Its appearance was such that no one would think it was a 
 money package except it was dealt with between individuals in the 
 
 , 
 
 % 
 
25 
 
 string and 
 
 I (lid not 
 
 member of 
 iitive com- 
 
 3ver served 
 
 an election 
 ry till the 
 
 billine: the 
 
 advortisiug 
 1 iUTivngiug 
 
 parcel con- 
 
 thc thing 
 ic street J 
 
 Ans. No. 
 o you and 
 
 so that if 
 contained 
 
 package. 
 
 the only 
 
 it was a 
 s in the 
 
 way it was ; and it seemed to be put up with that view ? 
 
 Ans. It might have been put up by a man who was not posted in 
 such things. 
 
 Ques. Lid it not look as if it was put up designed!}' so as not to 
 look suspiciously like a money package? Ans. It might be so. 
 
 Quea. (By Mr. Pugsloy). You say that you keep an express 
 office, and you are in the habit of receiving money and other valuable 
 packages by express ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And send them away by express ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Was it left as a business transaction or merely for safe keep- 
 ing? Ans. Safe keeping. 
 
 Ques. It was left by Mr. Murpiiy till he siionld call for it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 (Mr. Hauiugton submits list of further witnesses and asks that sub- 
 pienas issue for their attendance) : 
 
 Hon. D. McLollan, John JilcGoldrick, James Murray and James 0. 
 Stackhouso, all of St. John. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Pugsloy). On that evening Mr. Murphy simply 
 asked you to shew him Blair <fe Barry's office? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you went down for that purpose with him ? Ans. I did. 
 You did not see Mr. Blair there, did you? Ans. No. 
 Do you know Mr. George F. Gregory, of Frederioton ? 
 I do. 
 
 Did he lately ask you about this package? Ans. He did. 
 What did he tell you. Did he say anything about yoiw 
 being a witness? Ans. lie spoke something in reference to it. 
 
 Ques. What did he tell you in reference to that? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that I can tell you his exact words. 
 
 Ques. As near as you can ? 
 
 Ans. lie said something about being brought before a Committee of 
 tlio House, or something of that kind. 
 
 Ques. Was he questioning you upon the subject? 
 
 Ans. He asked me several questions. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Mitchell). How long since was that? 
 
 Ans. It would probably be within a fortnight. 
 
 Ques. (By Mr. Ilanington). Mr. Gregory was a defeated candidate 
 at the last election, was he not ? Ans. I believe so. 
 
 Ques. He has a scrutiny, has he not. for the purpose of ascertaining 
 whether any money was expended by Mr. Blair as against him ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know. , ■ . ' ' 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 (Jues. 
 

 26 
 
 • 'jt- 
 
 
 !l 
 
 i\ 
 
 Ques. You have heard of it, have you not ? 
 
 Ans. I have heard of it. 
 
 Ques. You were an active man for them in the election ? 
 
 Ans. I beg your pardon. 
 
 Ques. You posted bills, etc. ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. That is pretty active — that would make you an agent in law — 
 and Mr. Gregory wanted to know from you whether you knew or not ot 
 any money that went into the election ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know what ho wanted. 
 
 Ques. When he was asking you about this package, and that would 
 be an important proof that money was expended in the election ? 
 
 (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. However, you did not give Mr. Gregory much information.' 
 Did you not decline to give him any information ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I said much to him. 
 
 Ques. Did you not decline to give him any information on the sub- 
 ject? Ans. Well, really I forget now. I rather think I did. 
 
 Ques. You rather think that you declined to give' Mr. Gregory any 
 information on the subject ; did you not rather lead him to suppose 
 that you did not know anything about it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't think I did. 
 
 Ques. You virtually said nothuig; and did ho not tell you he had 
 heard a package of money hud jome up and went into your safe, and 
 ask you whether that was true or not, and you would not answer him ? 
 
 Ans. I rather think I did answer him, but 1 am not positive. 
 
 Ques. You did not toll hin'i it did come? Ans. I don't think I did. 
 
 Ques. And you did not tell him it went into the election, did you? 
 
 Ans. I did not tell him, because I did not know. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell moved, seconded by Mr. Hetherington, 
 
 Resolved, That Committee adjourn till 7.30 p. m. 
 
 % 
 
 It 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 April Uth. 
 
 The Committee resumed pursuant to adjournment at 7..30 p. m. 
 
 The Secretary informed the Committee that subpccnas have been 
 issued as directed. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Atkinson, seconded by Mr. Phinney, 
 
 Resolved, That Committee remove from Committee room to the 
 House of Assembly room. ' • ': \ ' - 
 
;ent in law — 
 lew or not of 
 
 d that would 
 ction ? 
 
 information.' 
 
 1 on the sub- 
 id. 
 
 Gregory any 
 to suppose 
 
 you he had 
 lur safe, and 
 ,nswer him ? 
 
 ;ve. 
 
 think 1 did. 
 did you ? 
 
 RIL lltll. 
 
 p. ni. 
 liave been 
 
 3m to the 
 
 27 
 
 M. George Murphy called, did not respond. 
 
 William H. Berry, Called, Sworn and Examined by Mr. Hanmgton: 
 
 Ques. Were you down at the examination this morning or to-day? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You know Mr. Gunter .'' Ans. Yes, well acquainted. 
 Ques. You were in the office he keeps on the 16th and 17th 
 -January last? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. A clerk there ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear him swear that he was out of town and did not 
 see Mr. Murphy on the day after the parcel was left in the safe? 
 Ans. 1 did not hear any part of the examination at all. 
 Ques. Did you see Murphy the evening the package was put into 
 the safe? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. When did you see him? Ans. Next morning. 
 
 Whore was Mr. Gunter? Ans. He was in the express office. 
 What time in the morning was Mr. Gunter in the express office ? 
 When 1 went tliero between half-past ten and eleven o'clock. 
 Mr. Gunter was there and Mr. Murpliy was with him ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Were they talking? 
 
 I could not say they were when I came in. 
 Did they talk while you were there ? 
 They might have held some conversation. 
 
 What conversation was there ? 
 Whatever conversation tliey held was confidential between 
 themselves. 
 
 Ques. I want you, please, to call the facts and circumstances to 
 mind us well as you can — how long was Gunter and Murphy there 
 while you were there that morning ? Ans. I could not state. 
 
 Ques, About how long? Ans. Ten minutes and to half an hour. 
 Wiiat conversation they had you did not hear? Ans. No. 
 Nor any ot it ? Ans. No. I don't know that they had any. 
 How near were tlioy together? Ans. I could not say. 
 About how near were they together — near enough to con- 
 verse together ? Ans. Probably. 
 
 Ques. Do you mean to say you do not know ? 
 
 Ans. They wore near enough to converse together. 
 
 Ques. Did anybody talk to you about giving your evidence here ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 An?. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
1 !• ^i^ 
 
 w 
 
 i m 
 
 Ml 
 
 I 
 
 \ 
 
 I li 
 
 28 
 
 Ques. You know they were near enough to converse ? Ana. Yes.. 
 
 Ques. How far apart were they — as far as from you to me ? 
 
 Ans. Probably. Excuse me, I don't know when I say probably. 
 
 Ques. Do you mean to tell me that your memory is so bad as that 
 you do not remember whether they had any conversation at all or not, 
 or speak to each other ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say they did not speak to each other while I was 
 in the office. 
 
 Que.s. Do you not know that they did ? 
 
 Ans. I would not say that they did on my oath. 
 
 Ques. This would be about what time in the morning ? 
 
 Ans. Somewhere between half-past ten and eleven. 
 
 Ques. They wore together when you went into the office ? 
 
 Ans. Exactly. 
 
 Ques. And they were there ten minutes to half an hour together, 
 near enough to converse, and if they had any talk it was confidential 
 between them so far as you know. Ans. Exactly. 
 
 Ques. Did you then know this package was in the safe ? 
 
 Ans. Not at the time. 
 
 Ques. Who first pointed out Ihe package to you in the safe? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Guntcr. Excuse me, he did not point it out, the safe was 
 cl'^jcd, and he told me there was a package belonging to Mr. ^lurphy 
 in the sate ; that is all he said, and then the door of the safe was closed. 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you to deliver it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. It he swore he did this afternoon it is not true? (Objected to 
 on the ground of improper evidence). 
 
 Ques. You swear now he did not tell you to deliver it? 
 
 Ans. My word on oath is ho did not tell mo to deliver it. 1 do not 
 remember him telling me. 1 could not swear he told me. 
 
 Ques. Did you not swear a minute ago he did not tell you? 
 
 Ans. 1 swore that because I don't remember him telling me. 
 
 Ques. Then when you swear a thing did not take place it is simply 
 that you do not remember it now, is that it ? 
 
 Ans. I swear to the best of my belief. 
 
 Ques. Did Mr. Gunter tell you to give this parcel to Murphy ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot remember that he did. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not? Ans. I did so before. 
 
 Ques. Do you stick to that yet? (Objected to on the ground that 
 witness has already twice answered the question). 
 
 Ques. I ask you if you say yet that he did not tell you that ? 
 
■ T irwy^ivy •: 
 
 99 
 
 Ana. yes- 
 tne? 
 obably. 
 bad as that 
 t all or not, 
 
 vhile I was 
 
 ) r 
 
 ir together, 
 confidential 
 
 safe ? 
 
 le safe was 
 Ir. Murphy 
 wa3 closed. 
 
 )bjccted to 
 
 do not 
 
 1? 
 
 
 no. 
 
 
 t is simply 
 
 )hy ? 
 
 
 ound 
 
 that 
 
 It? 
 
 
 
 Ans. I say that I do not recollect of him telling me. 
 
 Ques. Is that all you say ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And if you s&id more than that d minute ago, you made a 
 anistake ? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Murphy went away, did he ? 
 
 Ans. Went away — do you mean out of the ofBco ? 
 
 Ques. Yes, out of the oflSce, or did he not? 
 
 Ans. Yes, lie went out of the office. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know what I mean by going away ? 
 
 Ans. It is a wide question. 
 
 Ques. He went away out of the office so far as you know ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Who did he go out with ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say whether with Mr. Gunter or alone. 
 
 Ques. Was he there when Mr. Gunter told you about the parcel of 
 Alurph; 8 being in the safe? Ans. I cannot say. 
 
 Ques. Your memory then is bad ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You cannot remember that, and your memory is bad, is that 
 it? Ans. That's the way you look at it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say that your memory is bad? 
 
 Ans. I suppose it is in this case. 
 
 Ques. Ordinarily then it is good ? 
 
 Ans. I generally have a fair memory. 
 
 Ques. Is that what you say what you stated just now about your 
 memory ? Ans. That is it. 
 
 Ques. Then did Mr. Gunter go out of the office, too? 
 
 Ans. He went out of the office while I was there. 
 
 Ques. Where he went to you do not know? Ans. No, I don't. 
 
 Ques. You are not mistaken about Mr. Gunter being there in the 
 morning ? Ans. I think he was there in the morning. 
 
 Ques. I do not want thoughts : 1 want a positive stater lent? 
 
 Ans. He was there in the morning. He was there w ch Mr. Mur- 
 phy. Both were in the office. 
 
 Ques. I understand that Mr. Gunter knew Mr. Murpiiy. Had you 
 seen Mr. Murphy before ? Ans. Yes, I had met him several times. 
 
 Ques. Did you meet him in Fredericton before ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. At Mr. Gunter's before ? Ans. Never. 
 
 Ques. I think Mr. Gunter runs a livery stable ? Ans. Exactly. 
 
 Ques. And he has matters of business with them in the carriage 
 iine ? Ans. That is something outside of my knowledge. 
 
 d 
 
11:. 
 
 1^ 
 
 90 
 
 Ques. You do not know whether he had any carriages from them ?' 
 
 Ans. I do not know anything ol that. 
 
 Ques. You do not know whetlier old acquaintances or not? 
 
 Ans. My business really with Mr. Gunter was as express man for 
 him alone. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know whether they were old friends or not ? 
 
 Ans. 1 could Dot say. 
 
 Ques. Elowever, Mr. Murphy went away? Ans. He went away. 
 
 Ques. Where he went to you do not know ? Ans. I could not say 
 
 Ques. Do yuu mean you do not kuow ? Ans. 1 do not know. 
 
 Ques. Where he intended going you do not know ? Aus. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor did you understand from him where he was going? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor did you understand from Mr. Guoter where Murphy was 
 going? Aus. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor where Mr. Gunter was going? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor whether they went out together ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Murphy did nut take the parcel with him or did he ? 
 
 Ans. When he went out? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? Ans. I do not think he did. 
 
 Ques. A while ago 1 think you said he did not ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think you asked me that question, Mr. Hanington. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know wkether he did or not? 
 
 Ans. I would not say. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say he went away and came back again ? 
 
 Aus. I do not think I did. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Gunter told you there was a parcel in the safe of 
 Murphy's? Ans. He did, 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you that in Murphy's presence ? 
 
 Ans. I could not aay. 
 
 Ques. Have you no idea ? 
 
 Ans. Am 1 supposed to give ideas? 
 
 Ques. Give us your recollection as near as you can, unless it is very 
 bad in this case ? 
 
 Ans. I don't recollect that he told mo in Murphy's presence. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you in Murphy's absence or not? 
 
 Ans<. I don't recollect that he did. 
 
 Ques. If he was there and Murphy was there, how did he come to 
 tell you unless he was going away and Murphy had gone away — how 
 did he tell you this waB Murphy's parcel ? (Objected to). 
 
Tom them V 
 
 3t? 
 
 388 man for 
 )r not ? 
 
 ent Hway. 
 
 Duld not say 
 know. 
 s. No. 
 ;oing? 
 
 Murphy was 
 
 lid he ? 
 
 nington. 
 
 11 n r 
 
 JO safe of 
 
 s it is verv 
 
 ce. 
 
 le come to 
 ray — how 
 
 I 
 
 31 
 
 Ques. Tell us the circumstances under which he did that — that 
 this parcel waa in the safe and that it was Murphy's — was he going 
 away or was Murphy going away, or which? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Gunter is in and out of the office every ten or fifteen 
 minutes, as a general rule, and it was customary for him — 
 
 Ques. Are you speaking of your memory of that day? (Objected 
 to). 
 
 Ques. Under what ciicumstances was it he told you that this parcel 
 was there ? 
 
 Ans. Ho just told me that the parcel belonged to Murpliy. in case I 
 went to the safe and found a parcel in it that I might know who it 
 belonged to. 
 
 Ques. That is it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then I understood you to say the safe door was shut? 
 
 Ans. The door was shut. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Murphy there ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. You don't know whether that was before Murphy wont away 
 or not ? Ans. 1 could not say that. 
 
 Ques. You say the safe door was shut ? 
 
 Ans. We generally keep it shut. 
 
 Ques. That is not the question. You say it was shut, do you ? 
 
 Ans. It was shut. 
 
 Ques. Who opened it when the parcel was taken out ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Gunter there? Ans. Mr. Gunter was not there. 
 
 Ques. Had Murphy been away and came back again ? 
 
 Ans. He had. 
 
 Ques. So you are not mistaken now. Murphy had been away and 
 came back again. You are not mistaken in that ? 
 
 Ans. I could not answer you before. 
 • Ques. Your memory is better now ? Ans. Yes, it is. 
 
 Ques. So Murphy had been away iind when he came back again you 
 then gave him the parcel? An."(. Ho had. 
 
 Ques, How long had he been away ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. About? Ans. In the vicinity of perhaps half hour or hour, 
 
 Ques. What time did you get to the office that morning ? 
 
 Ans. Between half-past ten and eleven. 
 
 Ques. They were there then from ten minutes to half an hour after 
 that, and then he came back in about an hour ? 
 
 Ans. From a half to an hour. , ., . . , . r; 
 
 Ques. That would be about an hour ? 
 
-^«(1ii«l-UI|U^«^5»>9lLV^.i3^U^l^ r= 
 
 li '( 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 , 
 
 ■ 
 
 
 82 
 
 Ans. No, there is a great diflference between them, 
 
 Ques. Then tell me about what time he got that parcel ? 
 
 Ans. In the vicinity of twelve o'clock. 
 
 Ques. He took it away with him ? Ans. He did. 
 
 Ques. Where he went with it you don't know, or do you ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Did he say anything as to where he had taken it down to 
 Blair or Barry's office the night before? (Objected to on the ground 
 that statement of Murphy or anybody else not bearing on the case, 
 Committee are here to inquire as to facts connected with charge against 
 Attorney General. Any statement made by any person, no matter 
 whom be might be, would not be evidence in matter unless Mr. Blair 
 connected with it so as to make him responsible for them). 
 
 Mr. Hanington said he proposed to show what Murphy did say about 
 why he had taken the money there then, and why he had not taken it 
 before, and that irrespective of his seeing Mr. Blair, that Mr. Blair was 
 then not in Fredericton, 
 
 The Chairman asked Mr. Hanington if he thought the Attorney 
 General responsible for everything people said outside. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell was of the opinion that the evidence was inadmissible. 
 
 Mr. Hanington on being asked by Mr. Pugsley if he thought it was 
 proper evidence, said he thought on his honor it was proper evidence. 
 
 The Chairman asked Mr, Hanington again if he thought the Attorney 
 General ought to be held responsible for all the statements made by 
 outside persons as he thought the Committee could have no doubt aboyt 
 it not being proper evidence. 
 
 Mr. Hanington replied that in his view it was proper and urged its 
 reception. 
 
 The Chairman having asked for the opinion of the Committee upon 
 the question whereupon Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington thought the 
 question inadmissible ; Mr. Atkinson and Phinney said it was admissible, 
 the latter on the ground that it was part of the circumstances surround- 
 ing the whole case. The Chairman then ruled the question out. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you when he was going down home and what was 
 keeping him? (Objected to on same ground as before ; and the Chair- 
 man after hearing the opinions of Committee ruled it out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you when he came for the money where he had 
 been and who he had seen ? (Objected to — same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you whether Mr. Blair was in town or not ? (Ob- 
 jected to — same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
33 
 
 ou r 
 
 en it down to 
 a the ground 
 I on the case, 
 jhargo against 
 )n, no matter 
 less Mr. Blair 
 
 I. 
 
 did say about 
 , not taken it 
 
 Mr. Blair was 
 
 the Attorney 
 
 inadmissible, 
 bought it was 
 per evidence, 
 t the Attorney 
 lents made by 
 no doubt aboijt 
 
 and urged its 
 
 )mmitteo upon 
 
 )n thought the 
 |vas admissible, 
 
 ices surround- 
 
 |on out. 
 and what was 
 and the Chair- 
 
 where he had 
 
 Is. Ruled out). 
 
 or not ? (Ob- 
 
 Ques. Did he tell yon whether he had seen Mr. Blair or not? (Ob- 
 jected to — same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you what he wanted the money for ? (Objected 
 to — same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you where he was going to take it? (Objected 
 to — same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you it was money ? (Objected to — same grounds. 
 Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you what was in tlie parcel? (Objected to — 
 same grounds. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Had you any idea that it was of value ? (Objected to — 
 improper. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did you know it was put into the safe for safe keeping? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that I did ; I could not say that I did. 
 
 Ques. Have you au}' idea of whether there was anything^ of rafue in 
 it ? (Objected to — immaterial, and not proper mode of proof. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. You gave it to him ; what kind of a package Avas it ? 
 
 Ans. What do you mean — weight ? 
 
 Ques. Well, weight or looks ? Ans. It was a brown paper parcel. 
 
 Ques. About what size ? 
 
 Ans. As near as I can remember, about six or seven inches long and 
 somewhere in the same vicinity in width. 
 
 Ques. What height ? Ans. It was an ordinary parcel. 
 
 Ques. It was about as long as bank notes, was it ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say it was, I think it was longer. 
 
 Ques. What appearance had it, did it appear as if money was in it? 
 
 Ans. It did not appear like anything that I know of 
 
 Ques. Then you cannot give us any idea of it except that it was six 
 or seven inches long and wide and about the same height ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know I said anything about the height. 
 
 Ques. What was the height ? 
 
 Ans. It was three or four inches high. 
 
 Ques. Is that your impression now ? 
 
 Ans. As near as I can remember. 
 
 Ques. He took it away and that is the last you saw of him, is that 
 [what you say ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say; I might have seen him next evening or dur- 
 [ing the day, but would not say I did. 
 
 Ques. Did you see him up to the office again. 
 
 Ans. I do not remember. • f 
 
 . . 8. ^ 
 
34 
 
 Quos. This is the gentleman here (indicating Mr. Murphy)? 
 Ans. Yes, I am well acquainted with him ; that is the same gentleman. 
 Ques. Whether you saw him again or not you say you don't know 
 when he left town ? Ans. I could not sny. 
 
 The Committee nor Mr. Pugsley cross-examined this witness. 
 
 M. George Murpiit Sworn, and Examined by Mr. Hanington: 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 You are one of the firm of Kelly & Murphv, St. John ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Mr. Kelly was, and is one of the aldermen of Saint John ? 
 Yes. 
 
 You do business there as carriage makers? Ans. Yes. 
 
 And have for some years ? Ans. Yes. 
 You have done some business with Mr. George Gunter of 
 Fredericton, have you not, in that way ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Does ho buy carriages and things from you? 
 
 Ans. Occasionally. 
 
 Ques. Calling your attention to the week before election in January 
 last, you were up hero in Fredericton, were you not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You came here on the 16th day of January, did you not? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. What time did you get here ? 
 
 Ans. On the evening train. 
 
 Ques. That would be about 7 ? Ans. I don't remember the time. 
 
 Ques. Did you go inimediutely to the hotel? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. The Queen Hotel? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. From there you went where to? 
 
 Ans. I don't just remember where I went from there. 
 
 Ques. Well, please remember? 
 
 Alls. I walked the street a little ways for a while, 
 whether I went into Mr. Guuter's or Mr. Staples. 
 
 I am not sure 
 
 Ques. You had a parcel with you, had you? Ans. I had. 
 
 Ques. Did you bring it up in a valise? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Just in your hand? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. A brown paper parcel ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Done up in paper? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you take that up when you went up to Mr. Staples? 
 
 An . I had it in my pocket. 
 
 Ques. About what size was it? - • . 
 
86 
 
 phy)? 
 
 me gentlemaD. 
 
 3U don't kuow 
 
 witness. 
 lanington : 
 5t. John 1 
 
 Saint John ? 
 
 A.US. Yes. . 
 
 orge Gunter of 
 
 ition in January 
 Ans. Yes. 
 did you not? 
 
 ioiber the time. 
 Yes. 
 
 Ans. I should suppose about 7 inches long, 5 or 6 inches high and 
 4 or 5 inches wide. 
 
 Ques. Did you know what was in the parcel? Ans. Yes. 
 What was in it? Ans. Bills. 
 What kind of bills? Ans. Money. 
 How much money was in it? 
 1 don't know why I should answer that. 
 How much money was in it? Ans. $1500. 
 That is all? Ans. That is all. 
 
 That is all the money that was in it? Ans. That is all. 
 How wide did you say? Ans. Just one width of notes. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 And it was 4 or 5 inches high ? 
 
 I am not sure ^ 
 
 \ with the 
 
 i 
 
 Ans. 
 
 1 1ml. i 
 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ans. 
 
 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ans. 
 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ir. Staples? 
 
 Ans. 
 
 
 Ques. 
 
 » ^- ^ ' 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Well, perhaps 4 or 5 or 6. 
 
 You counted the money yourself, did you? 
 I counted part of it. 
 
 Where did you count it? Ans, In Mr. Barry's office. 
 
 Is that in Mr. Blair's office? Ans. I could not tell you. 
 
 It is Blair & Barry's office in this town? Ans. Yes. 
 
 That is where you took it to? Ans. Yes, 1 left it there. 
 
 You left it all there did you? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Who did you count it over with? Ans. Mr. Barry. 
 
 That is Mr. Blair's partner? Ans. Yes. 
 
 And you left it there? Ans. Yes. 
 
 You had brought it up from Saint John? Ans. Yes. 
 
 You knew when you brought it that it was for election pur- 
 poses, did you not? 
 
 Ans. Nothing of the kind. I had no connection whatever 
 with it. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you did not kuow it had anything to do 
 elections? 
 I was informed to leave the parcel with Mr. Barry. 
 
 Were you not informed to leave it at Mr. Blair's office? 
 No, Mr. Barry was the man I was told to leave it with. 
 
 Who told you to leave it with Mr. Barry ? 
 Mr. Kelly, my partner. 
 
 Then, if I understand you, you counted part of it ? 
 Yes. 
 
 In their office ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 You did not count it all ? Ans. No. 
 
, I 
 
 m 
 
 it 
 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 election? 
 Alls. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 36 
 
 Did you take a receipt fur it ? Aua. I did. 
 
 From Bnrry? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Have you got it? Ans. No, I have not. 
 
 Where is it? Ans. I gave it to Mr. Kelly. 
 
 And you tell us you did not know that was to be used iu the 
 
 Well, probably I might have thought so. 
 What time did you leave that package at Barry's office? 
 I think on a Friday, some time after dinnei. 
 The election was on the 20th, and it was on the 17th, after 
 dinner, that you left that at Barry's? 
 
 Ans. I think it was after dinner; I would not bo positive. 
 
 Ques. You had that parcel and took it up to Gunter's the evening 
 before? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You were at Barry's office the evening before? 
 
 Ans. I was. 
 
 Ques. Had you met Barry before ? 
 
 Ans. I was acquainted with him before ? 
 
 Ques. Were you introduced to him that night by anybody? 
 
 Ans. I think not. 
 
 Ques. Are you surer Ans. lam. 
 
 Ques. Then, Gunter went down with you, did ho not? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You got him to show you the office? Ans. Yea, I did. 
 
 Ans. And ho went 'lown with you? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did he go in? Ans. Ho went into the office. 
 
 Ques. Who was there ? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you who was there, I am sure. Two or three 
 gentlemen were sitting there. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Barry told you, did he not, that Mr. Blair was not in 
 toAvn ? 
 
 Mr. Pugsley. — I object to him stating what Barry said. I object 
 to any hearsay evidence as to what Barry or anybody else told him. 
 As I said before this is a charge against Mr. Blair. Now, whether any 
 persons may have contributed anything to the election fund or not, is 
 not at all material towards proving that charge against Mr. Blair. It 
 does not connect him with it. It is not shown that any of these 
 gentlemen have spoken to Mr. Blair, or had any communications with 
 him, direct or indirect; therefore I submit it is not competent to give 
 
bo used ill the 
 
 •y's office? 
 
 the 17th, after 
 
 sitive. 
 
 i-'s the evening 
 
 ybody ? 
 
 .t? 
 Yes, I did. 
 
 Two or three 
 
 lair was not in 
 
 said. I object 
 else told bini. 
 w, whether any 
 fund or not, is 
 Mr. Blair. It 
 any of these 
 inications with 
 ipetent to give 
 
 87 
 
 any conversations which Mr. Murphy may have had with other parties, 
 «xcept in Mr. Blair's presence, or unless he is connected with it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington express the opinion that 
 the evidence is inadmissililo. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — On what ground do you oiler it, Mr. 'lanington? 
 
 Mr. Ilanington — I oiler it as part of the res tjeslai ci this transaction. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I don't think it is objectionable on the ground upon 
 which the Solicitor General objects to it, because I think if they fail to 
 connect Mr. Blair with this transaction it would fail, but I think his 
 own partner would be supposed to have some knowledge of where ho 
 was. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I am a little surprised that evidence of this kind 
 should be oifercd at all. I am of the opinion that it is not admissible. 
 (Ruled out by Mr. Wilson, Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington ; Mr. 
 Phinney and Dr. Atkinson contra). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Ilanington). Did you ascertain whether Mr. Blair was 
 in town or not, that day? Ans. I don't think I inquired. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not inquire V 
 
 Ans. I could not say whether I did or did not. I may or may not 
 have. I am of the opinion that I did not ask anything in connection 
 with Mr. Blair. 
 
 Ques. You knew you were in the ofHco belonging to the Attorney 
 General, did you not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you knew Mr. Barry was his partner? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And in his absence does his business, did you not ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know that. 
 
 Ques. You did not know that when one partner was absent the 
 other did his business? 
 
 Ans. I did not know he did his private business. 
 
 Ques. Did you know he did his public business? 
 
 Ans. I supposed he did. 
 
 Ques. Whether this money came here on public business or private 
 business, you don't know ? 
 
 Ans. All that I know about the money was that I was ordered to 
 fetch it there and deliver it. What it was for, I knew nothing. 
 
 Ques. They did not tell you? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Kelly told you simply to carry it and deliver it there, 
 and did not tell you what it was for ? 
 
 Ans. He told me to deliver it to Mr. Barry. ; ■ . 
 
il 
 
 (II ^ 
 
 I I 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 
 ^H 
 
 ; 
 
 1 
 
 88 
 
 Ques. If I understand you, then your instructions were to come up 
 to Fredericton, and to go and deliver tliat parcel to Mr. Barry? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. That was all the instructions you had? 
 
 Ans. When I had word to deliver it. 
 
 Ques. You were to deliver it to him when you had word to deliver 
 it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Word from whom. Ans. Mr. Kelly. 
 
 Ques. Kelly was in St. John, was he not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. ThcMi you were told to bring up ^1500 in cash, and keep it 
 here until you got word from St. John, and then to deliver it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, from my partner. 
 
 Ques. Then this money was not to be delivered until something 
 took place in Saint John. Is not that it ? 
 
 Mr. Pugsley — I object to this witness giving any statement as to 
 conversations ho had with any person, Mr. Kelly or anybody else, 
 unless Mr. Blair is connected with it. 
 
 Mr. Ilanington — Unless Mv. Blair was present. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — Present or connected with it. 
 
 Mr. Ilanington — If you can tell mo any way to connect a man with 
 it who does not want to bo connected with it, I would like to know it. 
 Mr. Blair probably would not I)g directly present in this arrangement, 
 l)ecause he would I)o disqualified forever from running elections. But 
 I claim I have a light to show, and this country has a right to know 
 how this money was -ent — under what conditions and for what pur- 
 pose. It is part of this examination, and if I cannot show what took 
 place between Murphy iind his partner, with reference to where and 
 how ho got the money, what can I show ? Yon might as well say you 
 will stop the investigation. This arrangement is made behind Mr. 
 Blair, this man comes to Fredericton and delivers the money to his 
 partner in case something takes place in Saint John, and you say I 
 cannot show what that is, and that he had instructions to wait. If 
 that is so, the evidence previously given that he was to keep it till he 
 got instructions from Saint John, and then pay it over, was wrongly 
 admitted. I say if that is to bo the ruling, yon had better tell me and 
 tell this country that you will shut out all evidence ou this inquiry, 
 because that is what you are doing. In the Supreme Court such a 
 contention as that would not be listened to for a moment. Suppose it 
 was a scrutiny case, as to whether that money came for the purpose* 
 
89 
 
 J re to come up 
 Barry ? 
 
 voril to tlelivei 
 
 iTes. 
 
 ih, iiiul keop it 
 
 ver it? 
 
 util something 
 
 iitement as to 
 anybody olsse, 
 
 ect a man with 
 
 ke to know it. 
 
 J arrangement, 
 
 lections. But 
 
 risrht to know 
 
 for wliat pur- 
 
 low what tooli 
 
 to where and 
 
 s well say you 
 
 beliiiul Mr. 
 
 money to his 
 
 lid you say I 
 
 s to wait. If 
 
 keep it til! he 
 
 , was wrongly 
 
 or tell me and 
 
 this inquiry, 
 
 Court such a 
 
 Suppose it 
 
 the purpose* 
 
 J 
 
 of an election, whether it came in consideration or did not, surely 
 what he says when he delivers the money to him is p;irt of the res ge»kii. 
 If money or anything else if. delivered the decliiratious that take place 
 with it and the conditioi. *on which it U held are evidoncc. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — You are not asking him about his declarations. 
 
 Mr. llaningtcn — I am asking him what instructions bo had. I am 
 asking him about the time that Mr. Kelly delivered it to him. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — Where do you connect it with Mr. I'lair? 
 
 Mr. Han.ngtoii — Well, I have got it in his ofBee counted. !n 
 certMin criminal cases, for instance, when property gets into a in.ui's 
 hands he has to show how it got there. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — But I do not think you could show it by a.iy 
 conversations between Mr. Kelly and Murphy. 
 
 Mr. llanington —Well, if this ruling goes on I might as well give 
 up any hope of getting at the facts at all. A declaration it is well 
 estalilishcd by the Court is jnst as much evidence as the act itself. I 
 say it is proi)er, and most important that the instructions given should 
 be developed. \\'e have it now that he was not to deliver the money 
 to Barry until he got instructions from Saint John. He was going on 
 further ationt his instructions and I want that evidence in ; if it is ruled 
 out, all I can saj' is that the result will be that the inquiry will, to ii 
 largo extent, be burked. 
 
 Hon. Mr. I'ngsley — What I say is this: The questioii which the 
 Connnittee is calloil upon to try is not whether Mr. Kelly or Mr. 
 Muri)liy or anybody else contributed any money for election expenses 
 in this (/onnty or elsewhere, but the charge is that Mr. Blair made a 
 corrni)t agreement with Mr. Leary, under which Mr. Li-ary agreed to 
 furnish money to assist Mr. Blair and his supporters, in consideration 
 of which .Mr. Blair agreed to give the subsidy for the dry dock in 
 Saint John to Mr. Leary. That is the otfenco with which .Mr. Blair is 
 charged. Now, surely, it does not tend to prove that to simply show 
 that .Mr. Kelly or somebody else in Saint John contributed that money 
 toward election expenses in York. Not thousands of dollars as is 
 charged in this complaint, but some $1500. My learned friend has 
 l)egun at the wrong end. What ho should do is to show, if he can, or 
 thinks he can, that Mr. Blair made this agreement with Mr. Leary 
 that is charged against him. If ho is allowed to go on he will heap up 
 evidence not one tittle of which tends to connect Mr. Blair in any 
 shape or form with the case, and then bo would ask the Committee 
 
Itx. 
 
 ! I 
 
 I i^ 
 
 5» 
 
 m 
 
 i 
 
 . 
 
 • 
 
 40 
 
 and the country to have all manner of suspicions against Mr. Blair. 
 When Mr. Gunter was on the stand, I allowed him to tell all that was 
 said between Mr. Murphy and him. Mr. Murphy has been allowed to 
 tell all that he did. Surely these declarations of third parties in Mr. 
 Blair's absence cannot be evidence unless he is in some way connected 
 with them. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — It is the first time I ever heard the proposition laid 
 down that a man in order to prove his case must prove his whole 
 case in the first instance. As I say, if Mr. Blair is not subsequently 
 connectcu with it, the whole superstructure falls. Here we have the 
 fact that ii certain amount of money was brought up from Saint John, 
 that it was deposited with Mr. Blair's partner and counted, and tljis 
 man swears it was money, and he believes it was for election purposes. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — He has not said that. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — That is his belief. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — No, he knows nothing about it. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — And he has sworn further, that Mr. Kelly, from 
 whom he got it, told him he was to carry it and deliver it to Mr. 
 Baiiy, and was not to deliver it until he received word from Saint 
 John. All the instructions he received arc to be shut out, and so the 
 inquiry is to he obstructed. When he says " probably I might have 
 thought it was for election purposes," that is strong evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I understand that Mr. Hanington claims that the 
 instructions j\lr. Murphy received in Saint John when he was directed 
 to bring this money up here, is evidence. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I think it is admissible on this ground, that it is un- 
 fair for the Solicitor General to allow one or two questions of a certain 
 character to bo answered and when another question of exactly the 
 same character is put to the witness then to object. He says : '< Kelly 
 told me to carry it and deliver it to Barry.'" That is instructions. 
 Why cannot he follow it up 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — That shows that the only safe course for mo to 
 take is to object to such questions all the way through. In conse- 
 quence of what Mr. Phinney says, I shall hereafter adopt the strict 
 rule of objection as to all hearsay evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — My opinion is that the evidence is admissible. 
 
 Qucs. (Mr. Hanington). Having those instructions you went to 
 Gunter's and put the money in a safe ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Until you should get instructions from Saint John ? 
 
41 
 
 Inst Mr. Blair, 
 ell all that was 
 ►een allowed to 
 parties in Mr. 
 way connected 
 
 )ropositicu laid 
 :ove his whole 
 it subsequently 
 i-e we have the 
 ora Saint John, 
 unted, and this 
 iction purposes. 
 
 iv. Kelly, from 
 liver it to Mr. 
 vord from Saint 
 ; out, and so the 
 Y I might have 
 donee. 
 
 aims that the 
 le Avas directed 
 
 1, that it is un- 
 cus of a certain 
 of exactly the 
 3 says : " Kelly 
 is instructions. 
 
 oursc for mo to 
 cr\\. In conse- 
 dopt the strict 
 
 lissible. 
 
 ns you went to 
 
 Tohn ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Which instructions were that if certain things took place iu 
 Saint John — 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — He did not say that. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — You are putting your construction, Mr. Hanington, 
 upon what the instructions were. 1 '' uk it would be well for you to 
 ask him what the instructions were wuen he received the money. 
 ^ Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Therefore you went and saw Mr. Barry, 
 I did you not, that night ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 * Ques. And talked this matter over with him? Ans. I did. 
 ; Ques. Did you tell him j'ou had the money? Ans. I did. 
 3 Ques. Did you tell him you were not to deliver it until you got 
 instructions? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you talk election matters over with him ? 
 Hon. Mr. Pngslej^ objected, Mr. Blair not having been present. 
 Mr. Wilson — I cannot see for the life of me what tlie election has 
 got to do with this inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Is it not charged that the money was used for 
 election purposes ? 
 Hon. Mr. Puffsloy — The charge is that the agreement was made. 
 Mr. Hanington — The charge is that the agreement was made, and 
 money paid under that arrangement, and it was in consequence of the 
 election. Now, I want to show, because as I am instructed I shall 
 connect the Attorney General with it in another way (this witness, of 
 course, did not see the Attorney General — you can easily understand 
 I that the man who would be carrvinir this nionov would not seethe 
 t Attorney General). 
 
 I Hon. Mr. Pugsley — The Attorney General tells me that he was 
 I fifty miles away. 
 
 I Mr. Phinney — Well, the charge is that he did by himself or his 
 I agents receive the money. 
 
 "^ Mr. Hanington — I propose to prove this branch of the case first 
 V and then the others. I am not instructed that this witness had any 
 ■; communications direct with the Attorney General, but I have proved 
 I that ]Mr. Barry is the Attorney General's partner. 
 i Mr. Wilson — Do 3'ou say you have proved that? 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Yes, I have proved it. I have proved that this 
 
 was their ofiice ; that this gentleman was taken down and shown their 
 
 ffico ; that he went and paid the mouey to the Attorney Geueral's 
 
11 
 
 m / 
 
 -r 
 
 il 
 
 1 ' 
 
 ! I I 
 
 i! I 
 
 i 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 42 
 
 partner. Now I propose to show facts and deeds — among the rest dis- 
 cussions — that Mr. Barry was the Attorney General's partner for 
 election purposes. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — This apparently is a matter that had no connec- 
 tion with the partnership business. Mr. Murphy states that he was in- 
 structed to deliver this money to Mr. Barry, not to Mr. Blair, not to the 
 firm of Blair k Barry, but to Mr. Barry. Be came to Fredericton, saw 
 Mr. Barry and left this with him. There is nothing in the fact of the 
 partnership which would make any conversation between Mr. Barry 
 and Mr. Murphy evidence against Mr. Blair. In an ordinary civil trial 
 it would not be evidence. How much more should that apply to 
 a case of this kind where a charge of this grave character is made. 
 Here is a charge that a corrupt agreement was rande. Can you prove 
 that charge by showing that certain money for election purposes was 
 put into the hands of Mr. Barry ? The result is that you get in a lot 
 of Ov'idence not connected with Mr. Blair at all, but which might 
 induce people to draw conclusions tending to prejudice Mr. Blair unjustly 
 and ini[)roperly. There is just one more remark I wish to make : 
 Viw Haiiiiigton says that if he can get at the facts he will connect Mr. 
 Blair wirh this corrupt agreement. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I said, as I am instructed. 
 
 Hoti. Mr. Pugsley — No, you did not put it in that way. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I say I did. You state what is false. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — It filled mo with surprise and pain that the 
 Counsel for the prosecution should make a statement of that kind. 1 
 am instructed by Mr. Blair that he has never been directly or indirectly 
 in any shape or form a party to such an arrangement or understanding, 
 and I do think the Counsel, consideiiug the gravity of this charge, 
 ought to wait until the evidence is in before making statements as to 
 what will 1)0 proved or not proved in connection with this matter. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I never said any such a thing. I said as I was in- 
 structed if I could get the proof in I would prove it 
 
 Mr. Wilson — My opinion of what he said is just as I he Solicitor General 
 says. I took it down at the time and there was nothing about "as I am 
 instructed."' My opinion is that the conversation between Mr. Barry 
 and Mr, Murphy is not evidence. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hother- 
 ington concurring the question is ruled out). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). You said you got a paper from Mr. Barry and 
 that you took it home ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. That had reference to the money ? 
 
 J 
 
43 
 
 long the rest dis- 
 •al's partner for 
 
 ; had no connec- 
 3 that he was in- 
 Blair, not to the 
 Fredericton, saw 
 1 the fact of the 
 tween Mr. Barry 
 •dinary civil trial 
 
 Id that tipp'y ^° 
 haracter is made. 
 
 Can you prove 
 on purposes was 
 t you get in a lot 
 3ut which might 
 Mr. Blair unjustly 
 [ wish to make : 
 
 will connect Mr. 
 
 'vay. 
 se. 
 
 pain that the 
 of that kind. I 
 ctly or indirectly 
 Dr understanding, 
 of this charge, 
 statements as to 
 this matter, 
 aid as I was iu- 
 
 Solicitor General 
 
 g about "as I am 
 
 ween Mr. Barry 
 
 and Mr. Hother- 
 
 om Mr. Barry and 
 
 Ans. It was a receipt for the money. 
 
 Ques. Was itjust a common receipt for the money ? Ans. That is all. 
 J Ques, Did Mr. Kelly when he gave you the instructions tell you 
 that Mr. Barry had charge of the funds here in York ? (Objected). 
 Mr. Hanington — You have allowed that already. 
 Mr. Wilson — What I ruled in was the instructions Kelly gave 
 Murphy as to what he was to do with the money. 
 
 ; Mr. Hanington — I propose to show what took place between Mr. 
 ^^ Kelly and Mr. Murphy when he gave him the money — what was said 
 iand all that was said. 
 
 I lion. Mr. Pugsley — I submit that any instructions Kelly gave to 
 jMurphy might be admissible under Your Honor's ruling, but beyond 
 "that conversations would not be admissible. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — My opinion is that the only evidence admissible is the 
 .instructions. 
 
 ; Mr. [Tanington — I think I have a right to show declarations as to in 
 ;M'liat capacity he was to pay this money to Mr. Barry. The question is 
 tliis : Did Kelly spuak to you at the time he gave you the money as to 
 liow Barry was acting in connection with the election in York — or 
 jinythiug about Barry acting for the Attorney General in the York 
 ^^lection and if so what ? 
 
 j,! Hon. Mr. Pugsley objects. It is an effort to prove by some statement 
 Ipf a third party not made in Mr. Blair's presence and not made under 
 )at]i that Barry was acting for Mr. Blair. There is a proper way to 
 >rove that. I\Ir. Barry himself can show in what capacity he was acting, 
 ,nd the Attorney General can show whether he was acting for him or 
 |iot, If facts can be proved by hearsay evidence of this kind what is 
 Jhe use of having evidence under oath. 
 
 I Mr. Wilson — My opinion is that it Kelly gave him any instructions 
 :|s to what he was to do with tlio money that is evidence and that is as 
 §i\v as he could go. (Hon. Jlr. Mitcliell and Mr. Hetherington concur- 
 fing the question is ruled out). 
 
 1 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). What did your partner tell you when he 
 gave you the money — I want the whole of it ? 
 I Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I object unless it is confined to instructions. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Toll us what instructions Kelly gave you when he gave 
 'ou the money ? 
 
 !Mr. Hanington — No, I did not ask him for instructions. What did 
 four partner, Mr. Kelly, tell you when he gave you the money, on thi& 
 ubject? 
 

 II 
 
 1 1 
 
 
 1 
 
 44 
 
 ' Hon. Mr. Pugsley repeated his objection, that the evidence would be 
 inadmissibie except as relates to instructions. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I am of the opinion that in view of the fact that Mr. 
 Kelly may possibly be afterwards connected with Mr. Leary the instruc- 
 tions and directions given, may be given in evideace. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I say that is evidence too. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — We can only judge what the instructions were when 
 Jie has told us. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — He has told us already. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — Perhaps only part of' them. Give us the whole con- 
 versation that took place at that time. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I think the question is not admissible except 
 in so far as he seeks to show what the instructions were with regard to 
 the money. Any other conversation I do not think admissible. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — 1 would say that we are interested to know how Mr. 
 Murphy got this money, where he took it and for what purpose it 
 was going to be used, and I think anything that will tend to throw light 
 upon where this money was coming from and what was going to be done 
 with it, the committee ought to know. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Well this seems to be exactly the same kind of question 
 as was asked before ; my opinion is against it. If Mr. Murphy has any 
 further instructions he has not spoken about, he can give them. (Hon. 
 Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington concurring, while Mr. Phinney and 
 Dr. Atkinson dissent, the question is ruled out) . 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Haniugton). You came up hero in the evening and saw 
 Air. Barry ; how long were you in Barry's office that night? Ans. I 
 could not exactly tell how long. 
 
 Ques. Half an hour or an hour? Ans. May be half an hour. 
 
 Ques. Then you went away to the hotel ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you see Mr. Barry again that night? Ans. I think 1 met 
 him at the hotel. 
 
 Ques. Did you tell him you had this money at the first time in the 
 oftice ? (Objected. Allowed). Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. That was up in his office ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you tell him you had the money but you could not give 
 it to him until you had heard from Saint John ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I object to this evidence and I repeat the 
 reason again that so far as Mr. Blair is concerned, as far as this charge 
 is concerned, it must be entirely immaterial what Mr. Kelly may have 
 told Mr. Murphy or Mr. Barry told Murphy. It is admitted now that 
 
45 
 
 dence would be 
 
 le fact that Mr. 
 ary the instruc- 
 
 ions were when 
 
 the whole cou- 
 
 nissible except 
 with regard to 
 lissible. 
 know how Mr. 
 hat purposo it 
 d to throw light 
 ;oing to be done 
 
 kind of question 
 [urphy has any 
 ) them. (Hon. 
 I', Phinney and 
 
 eniug and saw 
 ight? Ans. I 
 
 an hour. 
 s. 
 I think i met 
 
 rst time in the 
 
 ;ould not give 
 
 I repeat the 
 
 as this charge 
 
 lelly may have 
 
 itted now that 
 
 ; 
 
 Mr. Murphy never saw Mr. Blair, had no conversations with hira nor 
 any transactions with him of any nature or kind. We are not trying 
 an election petition for the County of York though it may be that this 
 investigation has been started in the hope of getting evidence for that 
 purpose. We are trying a charge against Mr. Blair and I think in all 
 justice and fair play conversations between third parties with which he 
 is in no way connected, taking place in his absence, ought not to be 
 admitted until he is first connected in some way. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — You will find it laid down in every election case 
 that has been tried — 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — We are not trying an election case — that is 
 where the difference comes in. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — In every election case that has been tried and in 
 every other case in which the question oi the acts or responsibilities 
 of parties with reference to their agents has come up, the whole thing 
 may be tried out, and all the facts given in evidence before any evidence 
 of agency whatever is given. Even if I called Mr. Barry I could not 
 prove anything according to your ruling because Mr. Blair was not 
 there. You will allow proof that the money was paid over but not 
 what it was done for or in what capacity it was paid or received. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington think the evidence inadmissible. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I think Mr. Hanington interrogated Mr. Murphy about 
 leaving Gunters : he followed him down street to Barry's ofBce, and he 
 told Mr. Hanington he had gone in there, and at that time the que&tion 
 was asked as to what conversation took place between them, and the ques- 
 tion was ruled out. This question is of the same character. (Question 
 ruled out on the vote of Messrs. Wilson, Mitchell and Hetherington). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). You met him in the Queen Hotel — how 
 long did you see Mr. Barry in the Queen Hotel that evening? 
 
 Ans. He may have been there for 5 or 10 minutes probably. 
 
 Ques. Did he at any time want you to give him the money and you 
 refused? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — 1 object that this involves a conversation in 
 which Mr. Blair is not connected in any way, shape or form. 
 
 Air. Phinney — I deny the proposition that lie is not connected 
 in any way, shape or form. The money has been brought and delivered 
 to Mr. Blair's partner in business, which is sufficient to establish some 
 degree of agency, and I take it that the statements made by Mr. Barry 
 can be given in evidence to go for what they are worth. If Mr. Blair 
 shows that he had nothing to do with it and no knowledge of it, it would 
 
46 
 
 
 ^ Ml 
 
 be competent for him to show it, but I think it is now prima facie con- 
 nected with Mr. Blair. The charge is that he received by himself or his 
 agents. The receipt of the money is one ingredient — of course if it is 
 not connected with the Leary contract the whole thing falls. 
 
 Mr. Hannington — I do not altogether think that. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I submit that -there is enough evidence of agency to 
 admit the evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — It appears to me that the whole gist of the charge 
 is the corrupt agreement entered into between the Attorney General 
 on the one part and Leary on the other in consideration of which 
 these other things were to follow. It appears to me sound doctrine 
 that before you could admit conversations between this one and that 
 one in connection with this charge you have got to connect the Attorne;^ 
 General in some way with them. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — Pon't you think you can show the receipt of money 
 by the agents of the Attorney General ? 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I don't think any agency is established. If you want 
 to prove that Barry is the agent there is a proper way of proving it, or 
 that Mr. Blair had anything to do with the receipt of the money, there 
 is a proper way of proving it. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hethering- 
 ton concur, and question is ruled out). 
 
 Quea. (Mr. Hanington). What time did you see Mr. Barry next 
 morning ? Ans. It was some time in the afternoon I think. 
 
 Ques. What time in the afternoon did yon see him ? Ans. I could 
 not tell — it was between one and 3 o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Did you go home that same evening ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. In the meantime did you see anybody mixed up with politics 
 at all ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. McLellan was not here as far as you know? Ans. I did 
 not see him. 
 
 Ques. Did you see any of the members of the Legislature while you 
 were here ? Ans. I saw Mr. Mitchell at the Queen. 
 
 Ques. Did you have a talk with hira ? Ans. I think I shook hands 
 with him. I was introduced to him. 
 
 Ques. Was that the first evening you came or the next day ? 
 
 Ans. The first evening I think. 
 
 Ques. Did you know whether or not Mr. Gunter was taking an active 
 part i. the election for Mr. Blair? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from him whether he was or not. That 
 he was a friend of the Government ? 
 
 ! 
 
47 
 
 prima facie coo- | 
 
 by himself or his | 
 
 -of course if it is I 
 
 falls. 
 
 nee of agency to 
 
 t of the charge 
 Lttorney General 
 sration of which 
 sound doctrine 
 bis one and that 
 2ct the Attorney 
 
 receipt of money 
 
 3d. If you want 
 of proving it, or 
 ;he money, there 
 1 Mr. Hethering- 
 
 Mr. Barry next 
 link. 
 Ans. I could 
 
 Yes. 
 
 ip with politics | 
 
 ? Ans. I did 
 
 iture while you 
 
 I shook hands 
 
 xt day ? 
 
 living an active 
 
 or not. That 
 
 Aus. I think ho told me be was not taking an active part. 
 
 Ques. Well, are you sure? Ans. No, I am not sure. 
 
 Ques. When you went up to Mr. Gunter's in the morning did you 
 'tell Mr. Gunter what your instructions were — did you mention the 
 subject to him of your instructions ? Ans. I rather think 1 did. 
 
 Ques. Did you tell him then that you had instructions to give this 
 money on hearing from Saint John ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — (Objects). What he told Mr. Gunter would not 
 be evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — He said he had instructions before. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did you tell Gunter or anyone in his office 
 that you had heard from Saint John or words to that effect ? (Objected 
 to). 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Well, I don't see any objection of him telling Mr. 
 Gunter that he had heard from Saint John. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — But I must adhere to the rule of objecting to all 
 this class of evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — It seems to me he could say he heard from Saint John 
 but what ho did hear would be another thing. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I object to any statements or any evidence of 
 conversations that he and Gunter had because that would not be evidence. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I dont see any objection to him stating that he heard 
 from Saint John. Strictly I think it is inadmissible. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Are you going to change your ruling? 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Well, I did not understand the Solicitor General to 
 seriously object to it. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — Surely a statement made by the man who brings the 
 money and delivers it to Gunter's office is admissible in a case of this 
 kind. It is part of the res gestce. 
 
 (Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington think it is objectionable and 
 ihe question is ruled out). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Will you swear that you did not teil when 
 you got that money that you had heard from Saint John and the paper 
 was all right and you wanted the money ? (Objection. Ruled out as 
 before). 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell iiira that you had heard from Saint John and 
 the contract was all right and you wanted the money? (Objection. 
 Ruled out as before). 
 
 Ques. You did not deliver the money till you heard from Saint 
 John did vou? Ans. No. ,; 
 
48 
 
 ; ? ■ 
 
 Ques. Who did you hear from, Mr. Kelly? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. By telephone or telegraph? Ans. Telegraph and telephone, 
 both I think. 
 
 Ques. Did you have more than one communication with him? 
 
 Ans. Yes, by telephone and telegraph. 
 
 Ques. Which telegraph company? Ans. I could not tell that. 
 
 Ques. About what time did you get the despatch ? 
 
 Ans. Some time after one o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Was the telpihone message from Mr. Kelly ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not telephone you or to this effect to 
 deliver the money now as it was all right, or the paper was all right? 
 (Objected to. Ruled out as before). 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I will say candidly that if that kind of question is ' 
 ruled out I may as well give up the inquiry. 
 
 Ques. You waited till you got two or three telegrams, did you. 
 Did not you telephone to Kelly that they wanted the money, or tele- 
 graph him that Barry or somebody wanted the money. I mean before 
 you got word to deliver it ? (Objected to. Ruled out as before). 
 
 Ques. Did not you ask whether you should deliver it or not, and get 
 an answer back not to deliver it at first. (Objected to. Ruled out as 
 before). 
 
 Ques. Did you know that Mr. Wilson was on the ticket with Mr. 
 Blair running the election, when you left the money in Blair's oflBce ? 
 
 Ans. I never gave my attention to politics at all. (Question re- 
 peated). 
 
 Ans. Well, I read it in the papers. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I will admit that he did run on the ticket and 
 was elected. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Hud you only two communications with 
 Mr. Kelly from the time you came here till you came back ? 
 
 Ans. 1 think that is all. 
 
 Ques. Now, before you came here you knew that Mr. Kelly was 
 very anxious to get the docks in Saint John ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I was not interested in politics at all. 
 
 Ques. But you knew that from Kelly, did you not? 
 
 Ans. No, he told me nothing about it. 
 
 Ques. Did not you hear him say anything about it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes ; I did not know he was interested in it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not know he was very anxious that Leary should get 
 the contract. You knew that there was considerable discussion about 
 
 \\\ 
 
and telephone, 
 h him? 
 tell that. 
 
 Lns. Yea. 
 
 this effect to 
 was all right? 
 
 of question is ' 
 
 •ams, did you. 
 noney, or tele- 
 I mean before 
 ! before), 
 jr not, and get 
 Ruled out as 
 
 icket with Mr. 
 lair's oflSce ? 
 (Question re- 
 
 tlie ticket and 
 
 li cations with 
 •? 
 
 Mr. Kelly was 
 
 Ans. 
 (i)uos. 
 dock ? 
 Ques. 
 
 ry should get. 
 cussion about 
 
 49 
 
 Leary getting the contract for building docks at Carloton ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you not know that Kelly was very anxious for Leary to 
 get the contract ? Ans. Yes, I suppose I did. 
 
 Ques. There was a good deal of difference of opinion in Saint John", 
 was there not ? 
 
 Ans 1 don't know that there was much at that time. 
 
 Ques. When 1 speak of the contract I am speaking of getting the 
 contract from the Government? Ans. I know nothing about that. 
 
 Ques. All that yon knew was that tiiere was a contract for the dock? 
 I did not know what was going on with the Government at all. 
 You knew Leary was trying to get the contract for the 
 Ans. Yes. 
 And that Kelly was anxious he should get it ? 
 
 Ans. 1 think so. 
 
 Ques. And you heard him say so over and over again ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know that I had any conversation with him about it. 
 
 ',es. Will you swear you did not hear Kelly say that he was anx- 
 ious for Leary to get the dock ? (Objected to. Irrelevant. Ruled 
 out as before). 
 
 Ques. The reason why you delivered this money, which was some 
 time in the afternoon, was that you had got word from your partner to 
 do it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And that it was all right. (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. You got it out of the safe, did you, from the young man 
 Berry? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. C.'ould you give Us- a closer idea of the hour than you have 
 spoken of Are you sure it was after one o'clock ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Weil, if the young man said it was about twelve o'clock, he 
 would be mistaken, would he ? Ans. Yes, it was after one o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Did you see the money counted in Saint John. Was it 
 counted in the bundlo in your presence ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Who was present when you got it from your partner? 
 
 Ans. Not anyone. 
 
 Ques. Where did you get it ? Ans. Li our oflice. 
 
 Ques. Where did he tell you he had got it from ? (Objected to, 
 Messrs. Wilson, Mitchell and Hetherington concur, Mr. Phinney ex- 
 presses no opinion. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. What kind of notes was the money in. Were they crisp and 
 new or how otherwise, but tell us the bank ? 
 
 Ans. Either the British Bank or the Bank of New Brunswick. 
 4 
 
! 1 
 
 I 
 
 ■/I 
 
 50 
 
 i 
 
 ■ i. ;!■ 
 
 'II 
 
 'Quos. 
 
 Qno8. 
 
 Quoa. 
 ^1500. 
 
 Ana. 
 each. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Quea. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Wore they all alike? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Were they $1, $2 or $5? Ans. *5'8. 
 
 T)o you tell mo tlnit in tliiit wliolo package there was only 
 Dill you count them all ? 
 I counted one package. There were three Packages of $500 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Quea. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Quea. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Who counted the others ? Ans. Mr. IJarry. 
 You counted one and he counted two package.'^? A!)S. Yes. 
 They wore crisp, new notes, were they ? Ans. No. 
 There were $500 in each, were there? Ans. Yes. 
 How high was the jiackage ? Ana. 4 or 5 inches. 
 Ques. What Mr. Barry did with these notes you don't know, do you ? 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Did you ever see Mr. Leary ? Ans. 1 have. 
 Was he at your place of business, or where did you see him? 
 At our place. 
 
 Was he often there ? Ans. Once or twice, I think. 
 Was he talking to your partner ? 
 I think there were several gentlemen there. 
 Ques. Who was there when Leary was there talking with your partner? 
 Ans. I don't altogether remember because I just went to the office 
 door and did not go in. 
 
 Ques. You were there about your work and they were in the office ? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. How often did you see them in the office ? 
 Ans. 1 think only twice. 
 Ques. How long before the election was this ? 
 Ans. 1 could not say exactly. 
 Ques. Well, about how long? 
 
 Ans. I could not say ; I have no idea. Probably it was a month 
 before the election, and in the fall before the snow came. 
 
 Ques. It was while this question of dock works was being agitated ? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. It was also when there was discussion of the elections coming 
 on ? Ans. There was not much about the election at that time. 
 Ques, It got hotter afterwards ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. It was anticipated there was an election coming on, was it 
 not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You saw the gentlemen twice in your office with Kelly ; 
 who were there in there with Leary talking ? 
 
liero wii9 only 
 ckages of $500 
 
 1? Ans. YoH. 
 i. No. 
 Yes. 
 ilios. 
 know, do vou V 
 
 d you see him V 
 
 tliiuk. 
 
 liyour partner? 
 ?nt to the office 
 
 e in the office ? 
 
 was a mouth 
 
 eing agitated ? 
 
 ections coming 
 lat time. 
 
 ling on, was it 
 
 } with Kelly ; 
 
 51 
 
 Ans. 1 think Mr. Piig8ley was among thorn once. 
 
 Qncs. How long would that bo i)ot'ore the election? 
 
 Ans. I could not pay ; I did not niako any minute at all. 
 
 Qucs. About how long? 
 
 Ans. It might have bcieii a month, two months, or three months. 
 
 Ques. And might have been loss? 
 
 Ans. 1 think not, because I think we had considerable ice on tho 
 ground a month before election, 
 
 Ques. Will you swear there was no ice on the ground then? 
 
 Ans. I saw a coach coming up long wharf about that time, and 
 there was no .snow on. 
 
 Ques. \Voll, did not 3'ou see any coaches running in January? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Was it not coaching all tho time between Christmas and 
 New Year's ? Ans. Well, it might have been. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear this time you saw them that it was not 
 between Christmas and New Year's ? 
 
 Ans. No, I won't, because I have got no dates. 
 
 Ques. The only reason you have is that there was no snow on tho 
 ground ? Ans. Yes, and I thought it was a little early in the fall. 
 
 Ques. "Will you swear you did not see them within a fortnight of 
 the election ? Ans. No, I won't. 
 
 Ques. They were then talking about the dock business? 
 
 Ans. I don't know; did not hear what they said. I went to tho 
 <]oor but no further. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Pugsley was there with them once ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Was that the lirst or the second time you saw him there i" 
 
 Hon. Mr. I'ugsley — Would you ask him whether it was I or my 
 i)rother ? 
 
 Witness — I was going to say it was either him or his brother. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). But you thought it was him? 
 
 Ans. No, I would not say that ; I don't know which. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I was never there in my life. 
 
 Witness — I rather think it was Mr. Gilbert Pugsley now. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Well, Mr. Leary was down there trying 
 •to get the dock works, was he not ? Ans. I don't know. -■- 
 
 Ques. Were you introduced to him ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know that that was his business — trying to get 
 <lock works ? Aus. No, only what I heard in the press. 
 

 I 
 
 52 
 
 Ques. Ditl not your partner tell you so ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't think he did. 
 
 Ques. Did not you while you were here say you would ucver be 
 caught in such a seni,v again ? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. Did you say you would never bo caught in such a scrape 
 again — bringing up money and running round waiting for instructions ? 
 (Objected to). 
 
 Mr. Hanington It is alleged that this nicney was brought for 
 election purposes. If so it is perfectly evident that this gentleman 
 knew for what purpose it was. (Messrs. Wilson, Mitchell and Hcther- 
 iiigton concur in objection and question is ruled out). 
 
 Ques. You said you walked round the town when you first came ; . 
 what were you looking for — Blair & Barry's office ? 
 
 Ans. No, I weijt up to Gunter's after going into one or two other 
 places along the street. 
 
 Ques. Did you make inquiries until you went to (iunter's ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did Mr. Barry ask you where the money was ? (Objected 
 to. Messrs. Wilson, Mitchell, Hetherington concur; Mr. Phinney 
 expresses no opinion. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Barry want the money, and you tell him that 
 you would not give it to him, that you would give it to him when the 
 paper was signed, and not before? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. What time did you go down to St. John ? 
 
 Ans. The evening of the day I gave the money. 
 
 (Jucs. What time did you leave here? 
 
 Ans. I think the acconnnodation left about four o'clock. 
 
 Ques. How long had you paid the money over before you left ? 
 
 Ans. Some time between that and one o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Well, about what time did you say i)eforc? 
 
 Ans. Between one and three. 
 
 (^ues. Will you swear you paid the money an hour before you 
 left? Ans. No, 1 would not say to the half hour. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you had paid it over to Mr. Barry one 
 half an hour before you went to the station ? 
 
 Ans. I would not swear to the exact time I did pay it ; it was some- 
 time between one o'clock and the time I left town. 
 
 Ques. But had you paid it to him one half an hour before you left 
 to so to the station ? Ans. I could not sav. 
 
 "•■M 
 
roukl never be 
 
 such ii scrape 
 ir instructions ? 
 
 13 brouglit for 
 this gentleman 
 ell and Hcther- 
 
 fou first came ; . 
 
 le or two other 
 
 nter's ? 
 
 s ? (Objected 
 Mr. Phinney 
 
 ! tell him that 
 him when the 
 
 c\i. 
 you left ? 
 
 u" before you 
 Mr. Barry one 
 it was somc- 
 efore you left 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 53 
 
 Ques. Did you go and get the money as soon as you heard from 
 Saint John and pay it over ? Ans. Yes, I did. 
 Ques. Who was present when the money was counted ? 
 Mr. Barry and I. 
 Alone ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 In the inside or outside office ? Ans. Inside office. 
 Had you ever been in the office before ? 
 I supposed it was in the inside office. 
 Well, it was not the first room; it was the second room, 
 was it not ? Ans. I think the second. 
 
 Ques. Was it in the second room or third room ? 
 Ans. I rather think it was the second room. 
 
 Ques. ( Mr. Pugsley). You say that you camo to see Mr. 
 Barry, and it w.is he that you saw. You did not see Mr. Blair? 
 Ans. No. 
 
 (^ues. You had no business with Mr. Blair, and did not come to 
 see him ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You had no instructions to see him, and did not see him ? 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). You had instructions though, had you 
 not before you left Saint John, with reference to this money? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Did you bring it voluntarily, or by direction from other 
 Ans. No, I was asked to bring it. 
 You did not volunteer ? Ans. No. 
 
 Did you sec any other person except Kelly before you came 
 up? Ans. No. 
 
 (^ues. Do you know of your own knowledge where the money camo 
 from ? 
 
 Ans. I did not ask a question ; he just gave it to me. 
 Ques. Do you know of 3'our own knowledge where the money came 
 from ? Alls. Yes, I think he drew it out of the bank. 
 
 Ques. From the Kelly & Murphy account or his own account ? 
 
 Ans. He told mo it caine from our account. 
 
 Ques. From what bank did it come ? • 
 
 Ans. It would be the British Bank. 
 
 Ques. How was it drawn from the bank. By a cheque ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know anything about that. 
 
 Ques. Who attended to the bunking business, Kelly or you ? 
 
 (^ues. 
 
 parties ? 
 
 Ques. 
 
 (^ues. 
 
-U 
 
 54 
 
 Ans. Both, occasionally. 
 
 Qnes. Did you take a receipt for it of your own accord, or under 
 instructions ? Ans. Of my own accord, 
 
 Qnes. Did you know it was for election purposes when you brought 
 it up? Ans. Well, no, I was not told. 
 
 Ques. Well, did you know of your own knowledge ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know that it was. 
 
 Ques. What was it for ? 
 
 Ans. I was told to deliver it ; I asked no questions. 
 
 Ques. Did you know what it was for ? 
 
 Ans. No, I could not swear what it was for. 
 
 Ques. Do you want to leave the Committee under the impression 
 that when you brought up $1500 from Saint John before the election 
 and delivered it to Blair & Barry's office, you did not know for what 
 purpose you had brought it up ? Ans. I did not ask the question, 
 
 Ques. But did not you know, Avhether you asked the question or 
 not ? Ans. No, I could not say that I did know what it was for. 
 
 Ques. For what purpose did you bring it up here ? 
 
 Ans, I merely brought and delivered the parcel to him ; that is 
 all the instructions I had — to deliver it when I was told to. 
 
 Ques. You did not know what you were delivering it for? 
 
 Ans. No, for I did not get a receipt for any particular purpose. 
 
 Ques. Did you owe Mr. Barry ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did Kelly & Murphy owe him ? Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Ques. Do yen know any other persons you were acting for ? 
 
 ..ns. Nobody but Kelly that 1 know of. 
 
 Then Avho were you acting for? Ans. Mr, Kelly. 
 Was this a gift to Mr. Barry ? 
 It looked like that to me. 
 
 Was it !i gift to Mr. Barry or not? 
 I don't know that, sir; I could not tell that; I know nothing 
 further than that Kelly gave me the money to give to him. 
 
 Ques. You are perfectly innocent as to whether it had connection 
 with elections or anything else? Ans. Perfectly innocent. 
 
 Ques. How did they come to entrust it to you? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you that; they asked mo a few minutes 
 before 1 started. 
 
 Ques. Were you interested in the Saint John election ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Were you one of the Com.mitteo men down there? 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans, 
 
 • «■ 
 
55 
 
 cord, or under 
 
 211 vou brought 
 
 the impression 
 »re the election 
 know for what 
 ho question, 
 the question or 
 it was for. 
 
 him ; that is 
 
 d to. 
 
 it for? 
 
 lav purpose. 
 
 that I know of. 
 ing for ? 
 
 Kelly. 
 
 I know nothing 
 im. 
 Kid connection 
 
 ;t'nt. 
 
 !i few minutes 
 
 ? Ans. No. 
 iere ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not bother with the election. 
 
 Qiies. What interest had Kelly in the York election, do you know 
 that? Ans. Xo. 
 
 Qiies. Had yon any interest in the York election? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then you were an innocent medium of conveyance of that 
 money. You Avcre entirely innocent of any knowledge of what it was 
 for in any way ? 
 
 Ans. I knew nothing about it till a few minutes before I started. 
 
 Ques. Had you no curiosity to know what it was for? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know that 1 did ; it did not concern me, 
 
 (iiics. Do you know what it was for? 
 
 Alls. No, I could not swear what it was for; I would not like to 
 swear what it was for, because I don't know. 
 
 (Jnes. Have yf)n ever learned what it was for? 
 No, Mr. Barry never told me. 
 Did nobody ever tell you? Ans. No. 
 Has it been returned to yon, any portion of it? 
 No. 
 
 Nor to Kelly? Ans. Not to my knowledge. 
 Where it is gone, you don't know? Ans. No. 
 Whether it was spent in York or Saint John Cpunt}^, you 
 don't know ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Do you know whether it remained in Blair & Barry's office 
 or not ? Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). Did you say that this money was drnwn 
 out of the bank on your account and Kelly's together? 
 
 Ans. Well, he told ine so. 
 
 Ques. You are partners ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. If in a business tnuisaction an amount was drawn out of the 
 bank on account ot' yon and Kelly, would you not l)o likely to in(inire 
 about it? Ans. No. 
 
 (^ues. Well, for such an amount as this? 
 
 Ans. No, there are often larger amounts than that drawn. I 
 would not have a partner unless I had confidence in him. 
 
 Ques. What proportion of this money would come out of your 
 pocket? Ans. About ono half, I guess. 
 
 Ques. Then when you took this $1500 up to the otlice of Blair & 
 Barry, one half ot it was your own? 
 
 Ans. I don't say one half of it was my own. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
If 
 
 56 
 
 Ques. It was drawn out of the bank on yours aud Kelly's account, 
 therefore one half of it was yours? 
 
 Ans. Lots of times we make a deposit when it is not one half 
 mine and one half his. 
 
 Ques. If it was drawu on your account and Kelly's, would you not 
 be responsible for one half of it? Ans. Certainly I would. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinuey). Did the amount pass through your books 
 in any way — is there any entry in your books showing it? 
 
 Ans. No, I think not. 
 
 Ques. Where will it appear in your books? 
 
 Ans. In the bank book, I suppose. 
 
 Ques, Have you followed it up in any other book? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Have you an election fund account in the books? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Ilanington). Will you swear that you don't know as 
 a matter of business that that money was for the election iu York. 
 You have sworn that it Avas drawu on your account? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Kelly told mo it was drawn on our account. 
 
 Ques. AVell, do you tell me that having that information that it 
 was drawn on your account you brought it up here not knowing 
 whether that money was for the election in York or not, do you swear 
 that? Ans. No, I don't swear that. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know it was intended for the election in York 1 
 
 Ans. I don't know whether it was or not ; I could not swear that 
 it was. 
 
 Ques. Hut as far as you know, from your partner and from whut 
 took j)iace, and the way you dealt with it, don't you know it was in- 
 tended to go into the election in York? 
 
 Ans. No, he gave mo instructions to deliver it there. 
 
 Ques. But from your knowledge of the business — you see this 
 $1500 was drawn from the bank by your cheque, was it not ? 
 
 Ans. He said he drew it by our cheque. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know from the manner in which that business 
 was transacted, as a matter of business and dealing with the funds, 
 that this was intended to l)o spent in the elections. As this was 
 transacted between you and your [lartner, and you and Mr. Barry, 
 don't you know from that information and the way it was transacted 
 that it was intended for the election? 
 
 Ads. I am not sure that it was. 
 
^'s account, 
 )t one half 
 uld you uot 
 
 a. 
 
 your books 
 
 LIS. 
 
 No. 
 
 jn't know as 
 )n in York. 
 
 ition that it 
 lot knowing 
 [) you swear 
 
 in York ? 
 )t swear that 
 
 lI fiom what 
 nv it was in- 
 
 you see this 
 
 ;t ? 
 
 ;hat business 
 h the funds, 
 As this was 
 I Mr. Barry, 
 as transacted 
 
 1 
 
 Ques. Did uot you believe it was? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. Was it not intended by you for these elections? 
 
 Ans. It was not intended by me for anything ; I only had the de- 
 livery of it. 
 
 Ques. Well, half of it was your own ? 
 
 Ans. I did not say that; he told me that he drew it. 
 
 Ques. That being so, did not you intend it to go for the election .? 
 
 Ans. It was not my intention at all ; I had nothing to do with the 
 intention of it. 
 
 Ques. Did not you understand from your partner that it was to go 
 for the election ? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not tell me anything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Did not you understand it ? 
 
 Ans. I could not swear that he intended it shoul 1 go to election 
 purposes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not intend it? 
 
 Ans. I don't know what he intended. 
 
 Ques. Did not he give you to understand that it was to go for the 
 election? Ans. He did not. 
 
 Ques. What did he give you to understand it was for ? 
 
 Ans. He did not tell me anything it was for; he told me to take it 
 and deliver it in Fredericton as I was told, and I did so; he did not 
 tell me what it was for. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). What have you done with the receipt that 
 you got '{ Ans. I gave it to Mr. Kelly. 
 
 Ques. Have yon not seen it since you gave it to him ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Do you know whether it is on your premises now or in your 
 safe \ Ans. I could not tell you. 
 
 Ques. \\ hat did you give it to him for ? 
 
 Ans. I wanted to show him that I had delivered the parcel — one 
 good reason. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did he tell yon when you got buck that 
 Leary had the contract V Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you never heard that from him ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think it, for I did not understand at the present time 
 that he had it. 
 
 Ques. You never understood that he had it from the government? 
 Ans. That he had it in full — that is I mean s.itisfactory. 
 Ques. Never was satisfactory do you mean? 
 
C il!- 
 i 
 
 58 
 
 Alls. I always unclerstood he did uot have it as yet. 
 
 Ques. Did uot you understand from Kelly that he did not have it 
 satisfactory? Aus. No. 
 
 Ques, Did not you understand, when you got back that day or the 
 next day, from Kelly that the Government had given him the contract 
 as far as they could? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley objects to conversations between Kelly & Murphy 
 in the absence of Mr. Blair. Sustained by Mr. Wilson, Mr. Hether- 
 ington and Mr. Mitchell ; Mr. Phinney and Dr. Atkinson dissenting, 
 and question is ruled out. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Don't you know that that contract was 
 dated that very day that you paid t'^e money? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know it. 
 
 Committee adjourns until to-morrow (Saturday) morning, at nine 
 o'clock. 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 Saturday Mobnixg, April 12th, 1890. 
 
 The Committee met pursuant to adjournment. 
 
 Present: Mr. Wilson, Chairman; Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Hethering- 
 ton, Mr. Phinney and Dr. Atkinson. 
 Dr. Pugsley appeared for Mr. Blair. 
 D. L. Hanington, Q. C, for Dr. Atkinson. 
 
 Jeremiah IT. Barry, Called, Sworn and Examined by Mr. Hanington: 
 
 Ordered on motion of Mr. Hanington that subpcenas be issued by the 
 Secretary for the attendance of Mr. J. C Byrne of the Western Union 
 • Telegraph Office, Fredericton, and W. S. Hooper of the Canadian Pacific 
 Telegraph Conipan3''3 Office, and to bring with tliem the record books 
 ot ail messages sent and received and all telegrams sent from or received 
 at the said offices on the 16th and 17th January, A. D. 1890. 
 
 Ques. You are the professional partner of the Attorney General, Mr. 
 Blair? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And have been for some time ? AusS. For three years. 
 
 Ques. You hold office under his Government ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Clerk of the County Court? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And also Registrar of Probates? Ans. Yes, for a short time.. 
 
id not have it 
 
 lat day or the 
 11 the contriict 
 
 illy & ^lurphy 
 , Mr. Hether- 
 ou dissenting, 
 
 t contract was 
 
 i-niug, at nine 
 
 12th, 1890. 
 
 Ir. Hethering- 
 
 '. Hanington : 
 
 issued by the 
 Western Union 
 madian Pacific 
 record books 
 om or received 
 
 90. 
 
 y General, Mr. 
 
 •ee years. 
 
 Yes. 
 
 or a short time. 
 
 \ 
 
 i 
 
 I 
 
 59 
 
 Ques. You are now Registrar of Probates ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques, And appointed Registrar of Probates since the Election ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, on the 19th March I think it was. 
 
 Ques. Of course you remember the last election? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I suppose you took a pretty active part in it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Were you treasurer for the election ? 
 
 Ans, No, I cannot say that I was. 
 
 Ques. Who was treasurer of the fund ? 
 
 Ans. I was going to say that there was no executive committee or 
 treasurer. 
 
 Ques. You were not treasurer? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You received, it is in evidence — you were in Court I sup- 
 pose. You know Mr. Murphy who was a witness last night? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Ho came to j'our office he says on the 16th January, in the- 
 evening of Thursday, the sixteenth January ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think he was there — that was Thursday — yes, he did. 
 
 Ques. And ho paid you the money that he speaks of on the 17th? 
 
 Ans. That is on Friday. Yes, that is correct. 
 
 Ques. Does his memory agree with yours as to the time he paid it 
 in the afternoon ? 
 
 Ans. I have not a distinct recollection as to the hour. 
 
 Ques. Would it be two or three o'clock ? 
 
 Ans. It was after the noon hour but I would not undertake to say the 
 time. I know it was before four o'clock as he said he was going away on 
 that train. 
 
 Ques. Do you think it was shortly before four o'clock? 
 
 Ans. No, my impression is that it was before I had ray dinner. 
 
 Ques. At what hour do you have your dinner.'' 
 
 Ans. Usually at one o'clock. 
 
 Ques. He 3aid it was about two or three o'clock — you do not agree 
 with him there ? (Objected to). Witness should not be controlled by 
 a statement of a prior witness. Mr. Hanington proposed to ask the 
 witness if he was present and heard certain statements made, and then 
 to ask whether he was prepared to say the other statement was incor- 
 rect or not, and he contended that such was his right in any court. 
 
 Ques. Is that correct or is it not? 
 
 Ans. I am not prepared to say it was not after his dinner, but my 
 impression is that he paid me the money before I had my dinner that 
 day, although I may be wrong in that. 
 
TT-Tm 
 
 M 
 
 > III 
 
 L , 
 
 yi 
 
 60 
 
 Ques. And, therefore, you are not in a position to say positively it 
 "wns not as lie says? 
 
 Ans. I am not prepared to say ho is not right, although my im- 
 pres-ion is the other way. 
 
 Ques. You saw him on the evening before he paid the money? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. How long was he in your office? 
 Ans. Just a very short time. 
 Ques. About how long ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think he was in my office that evening more than ten 
 or fifteen minutes. 
 
 Ques. He told you his business? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. You heard him say last night what his business was? 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. That he had something to deliver to you on word from Saint 
 John — did he tell that? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not tell me about word from Saint John. 
 Ho told you he had money for the election ? 
 He said he had a package. 
 
 A package of what? Ans. I do not think he mentioned what. 
 What did you understand from him? 
 I understood a package of money. 
 Did he tell you why he had not brought it down then ? 
 No, I do not think he did. 
 Did you not understand from him before he paid it that his 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 instructions were not to pay it until he had got word i'rom Saint John ? 
 
 A us. I understood he was not to hand it over until he got word 
 from Saint John — but Air. Murphy talked very little that evening, in 
 fact he talked more about matters in Saint John than matters in 
 Fredericton. 
 
 Ques. Did ho talk anything about the dock in Saint John ? 
 
 Ans. No, the subject was not mentioned. 
 
 Ques. Did he talk about the election in St. John? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you how much money he had? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you ask him? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Then Avhea did you next see him? 
 
 Ans. I did not see him again till he came next day — he was only 
 in there on the two occasions. 
 
61 
 
 ' positively it 
 lough my im- 
 j money? 
 
 more than ten 
 
 s was? 
 
 orcl from Saint 
 
 John. 
 
 eutioned what. 
 
 vn then ? 
 
 )aid it that his 
 in Saint John ? 
 he got word 
 at ovening, in 
 m matters in 
 
 ohn ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Are you snro of that? Ans. Yes, I am quite sure of it. 
 Ques. Did you see him in the meantime? 
 Ans. I saw him after he was at my office at the Queen Hotel. 
 Ques. Who was present? 
 
 Ans. He was sitting on the lounge talking to two or three gentle- 
 men and I merely recognized him as I went in. 
 
 Ques. Your office is the Attorney General's office and was occupied 
 by him before you went in there as his partner, is it not? 
 Ans. No, we went in there since. 
 
 It is the office you and he occupy as partners ? Ans. Yes. 
 You had met him before ? 
 Yes, I have been acquainted with Mr. Murphy for several 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 yeai's. 
 Ques. 
 
 •the 17th — 
 
 - he was on ly 
 
 Then he came down there again the next day 
 and paid you that money ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you he had heard from St. John ? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not. 
 
 Ques. He did not say anything about that ? 
 
 Ans. My recollection is, he said it was all right and he would leave 
 the package and go home. 
 
 Ques. And then you understood from him he had heard from Saint 
 John ? Ans. I did gather that. 
 
 Ques. You did gather that he had heard from Saint John and that 
 it was all right and he would leave the package and go home, and I 
 think, if I understood you rightly, you understood from him that he 
 had this package foi- you, but had not brought it down the lirst night. 
 Are you sure that he did not give you to understand the lirst night 
 that he expected to hear from Saint John ? 
 
 Ans. I think he did not; I do not think he do 
 
 Ques. But at any rate, you did understand from him while here 
 that in consequence of having heard from Saint John he paid it over, 
 and that it was all right; did he not in fact say that? 
 
 Ans. That was the impression I gathered from his remarks. 
 
 Ques. And that impression 3'ou gathered from what he had told 
 you was that he had heard from Saint John, and it was all right, and 
 to hand you the package over ? 
 
 Ans. The impression I gathered from Murphy was that he was not 
 to deliver the package to me until he heard from Saint John that it was 
 all right, and then he would hand over the package. 
 
: i 
 
 ^rv 
 
 02 
 
 Ques. Was it not that he had heard from Saint John, that it was all 
 right, to deliver it to you ? 
 
 Alls. I do not know about him saying it was all right. 
 
 Ques. But you understood that ? 
 
 Ans. I understood he had heard from Saint John, and that he was 
 to deliver it to me. 
 
 Ques. And that he was not to do that until he had heard from 
 Saint John ? Ans. Yes, that is right. 
 
 Ques. Then you did understand from him that the word from 
 Saint John was that it was all right, to hand it to you? 
 
 Ans. I say that the impression Murph}' conveyed to me was, that 
 having heard from Saint John, he was iit liberty to hand over the 
 package. 
 
 Ques. Which he was not at liberty to do until he heard from Saint 
 John ; now is not that what you understood from him ? 
 
 Ans. Yes ; I understood he had to hear from Saint John before 
 delivering it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from him that he had heard from 
 Saint John, that it was all right, to deliver it to you ? 
 
 Ans. I understood that Mr. Murphy had heard from Saint John 
 and therefore had liberty to deliver the package. 
 
 Ques. The exact message he got you do not know ? 
 
 Ans. I do not, nor hear from him he got it. 
 
 Ques. You received the money and counted it? 
 
 Ans. I counted part of it. 
 
 Ques. It was $1500? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Was that all the money you got from him ? 
 
 Aus. That is all the money I got from him. 
 
 Ques. And that money you kept ? Ans. Yes, temporarily. 
 
 Ques. And that money went into the York elections, did it not ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that money went into the York elections. 
 
 Ques. In support of Mr. Blair, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Bellamy and Mr. 
 Anderson, the Government ticket, did it not? 
 
 Ans. I would not like to undertake to say that. 
 
 Ques. It was paid out by you for that purpose ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was my intention. 
 
 Ques. You paid it out to persons to spend in the election? 
 
 Ans. I gave it to gentlemen who were promoting the interests of 
 the Government ticket. 
 
63 
 
 that it was all 
 
 ;tl that be was 
 
 l1 heard from 
 
 le word from 
 
 jllamy and Mr. 
 
 Ans. 
 Quos. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. To expend in the election? 
 
 Ans. Yes — well, I don't know about that; some of that money I 
 paid out since, 1 think. 
 
 Ques. Elections bills, were they? 
 
 Yes, printers' bills and one thing or another. 
 How much of that money went out before polling day? 
 Plow much money went out of the ofKce ? 
 Yes. (Objected to — immaterial — incompetent for Com- 
 mittee to inquire into details of how money spent). 
 
 Mr. Hanington said he had not the slightest desire or aim. and had 
 not in his mind any intent lo particularize ; he would not go into such 
 a thing at all, and only because it was a necessity thrust upon him, in 
 this inquiry, would he go into it more, he would not do. 
 
 lion. Mr. Pugsley — While acquitting the honorable gentleman 
 from any intention of the kind, still thought ho might have had in- 
 stiuctions to pursue a certain course, and obtain evidence for other 
 purposes than that of this inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Hanington said ho had received no instructions, and that if the 
 reference was to Mr. Gregory, he (Mr. Hanington) had not the 
 slightest instruction from him, nor had he conversed with him on the 
 subject, nor did he have the slightest intention of using the present in- 
 quiiy for any ultra purpose ; he only proposed to show that the 
 money went for the purposes of the election. 
 
 Ques. I want to ask you, please, how much money of that was paid 
 out for election purposes before polling day — about how much" 
 
 Mr. Wilson — You are speaking of this $1500. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Yes, I am. 
 
 Witness — I could not say as to that, I made no distinction in 
 respect of that money, where it went. 
 
 Ques. Between that and others? 
 
 Ans. Yes, if you like to say so : I think |irol)ably that only n very 
 small portion of it was used before polling. 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Hughes get some of \t? (Objected to — im- 
 material). 
 
 Chairman to Mr. Hanington — Formulate your question. 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Hughes, who was ap[){)intod Engrossing Clerk 
 lin Mr. Beckwith's place, got some hundreds of dollars of that money 
 [to take out into the country for election purposes? (Objected to — 
 jimraaterial — irrelevant, and if question proper, then equally proper 
 
H4 
 
 to go into minute iletaiis, iind only object of such inquiry would bo to 
 assist petitioners case in the pending protest). 
 
 Mr, Ilanington — The charge is that certain money was spent in the 
 securing, etc., of certain gentlemen — (piite proper to go into details; 
 did not desire to do so, nor did he desire to get evidence to aid 
 scrutiny. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell ami Iletherington stating it was inadmissible; and 
 Messrs. Phinney and Atkinson that it shoidd be allowed ; the Chair- 
 man ruled the question out. 
 
 Ques. What proportion of this money so far as you know was paid 
 to go out into the country to be used at the polls, or was any portion 
 of this money used for that purpose ? 
 
 Ana. I really could not answer that question for the reason I stated 
 before, that this money was not the only money I had, and I made no 
 distinction. I made no distinction between the moneys I had. \- 
 
 QuBS. Then did this money go into your books ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. It went into, if I understand you rightly, the election fund? 
 . Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And there was no distinction made — no discrimination in 
 the expenditure between this and the other? Ans. None whatever. 
 
 (^ues. You were known by the ticket to be in charge of any funds, 
 were you not? Ans. I presume so. 
 
 Ques. Mr. lilair, the Attorney General, knew that? 
 
 Ans. That 1 had charge of the_^ funds? 
 
 Ques. Yes? Ans. I presume so. 
 
 Ques. There is no doui)t :ibout that? 
 
 Ans. I do not think there wv/ild be any doubt of it. 
 
 Ques. From your CDunnuiiiciition with him — did he not give you 
 directions as to the election fund and generally as to the fund? 
 
 Ans. ]\Ir. Bliiir and I talked generally in reference to the matter. 
 
 Ques. And that you were to have charge of the election fund, did 
 he not? Ans. No, I do not think he ever did. 
 
 Ques. Did he not know that you had charge of the fund for expen- 
 ditures in the election ? Ans. He knew that. 
 
 Ques. And he told you some of the places or persons it was to go 
 to, did he not? Ans. I think he did. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know he did? 
 
 Ans. I am not positive; I saw Mr. Blair but very little during] 
 the election. 
 
 > i'i 
 
 Xi 
 
 C- ^ 
 
 ^;-ii 
 
65 
 
 ry would be te- 
 as spent in the 
 ;(» into tlotiiils ; 
 vidence to aid 
 
 Imissiblo ; and 
 id ; the Clmir- 
 
 know wns paid 
 ms any portion 
 
 reason I stated 
 and I made no 
 I had. 
 us. No. 
 ( election fund ? 
 
 scrim inatiou in 
 one whatever. 
 e of any funds, 
 
 le not give you 
 3 fund ? 
 to the matter, 
 iction fund, did 
 
 fund for expeu- 
 
 ons it was to go 
 
 iry little during 
 
 Ques. Do you say that you are not positive he did tell you where to 
 send the money ? 
 Ans. Well, I have no recollection at present that he did give me 
 
 directions. 
 
 Adjourned to meet at call of the Chairman. 
 Committee resumed at 10.50 a. m., April I2th, 1890. 
 Examination of Jeremiah H. Barry resumed by Mr. Ham' ^g^Q^^, 
 Ques. Your last answer was that you did not know thi-^j the Attorney' 
 General gave you any instructions as to where the mo ^gy ^j^g ^^ g^? 
 Ans. I have no recollection of it, 
 Mr. Fugalpy — Or as to the money at all ? 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hauington). Do you say thr^t you had no instructions 
 or directions as to the money at all from '^jj^ ? 
 Ans. I do not think I wont so far ^^g that. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that Vae Atiorney General did speak to you 
 about the money himself — T ,,Qean thd money matters of the election ? 
 Ans. Yes, I think he uid. 
 
 Ques. If you know it eay it — did he or did he not ? 
 Ans. Yes, he did . 
 
 Ques. Did he not arrange with you or inform you that money would 
 come to you to go into the election funds ? 
 
 Objected to — evidence only sought to aid election scrutiny. 
 Dr. Atkinson — That is not true. 
 
 Mr. Hanington said he did not propose to ask how much was con- 
 tributed by Mr. Blair as that was not important to inquiry yet. It was 
 important to show witness was custodian of the funds, as he stated he 
 was, and he had now told the committee that he did not know Mr. Blair 
 bad given him any instructions. 
 
 Witness — As to the persons to whom it was to be sent. 
 Mr. Hanington said it was not his object to show where or to whom 
 it was sent but that the Attorney General, Mr. Blair, had knowledge 
 that the money was there and that he knew it was being expended. 
 He only wanted to prove agency with reference to the subject matter, 
 and not anything to aid scrutiny. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley asked if what was sought had anything to do with the 
 inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell said — Nothing whatever. 
 
 Mr. Wilson read resolution and recited what had been proven in the 
 course of the investigation, and that it was now sought to be proved how 
 much Mr. Blair had contributed to the election fund. 
 
 5 ■■ ■' 
 
Itl-i 
 
 'S.l 
 
 l{' 
 
 m\ 
 
 
 m 
 
 Mr. Haniugton — • I ciicl dot ask that ; J only want to know if he eoh- 
 «tilted with him as to where it was to go. I only want to pro%'e the 
 agency. 
 
 The question having been read by the btenographer, as at top of page, 
 the Chairman asked for the opinion of the Committee as to its admis- 
 sibility when — 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I think that as the learned Counsel is seeking to 
 'establish an agency between Mr. Blair and Mr. Barry, then I think the 
 question is admissible, but restricted, however, to this $1500 from St. 
 John, otherwise I do not think it is. 
 
 Mr. Hotherington — I have my doubts as to its admissibility. 
 ^The Chairman — I also agree, subject to that restriction, that it i.-; ad- 
 missible and competent to establish agency between Barry and Mr. 
 Blair in reference to this matter. 
 
 Mr. Phinney— The question as originally framed was highly objec- 
 tionable as it would go beyond our inquiry, but the question as now 
 framed is to my mind admissible as it is for the purpose of establishing 
 ao'ency between Mr. Barry and Mr. Blair. 
 
 (The question as originally put was : Did he not furnish money to 
 go into the election or arrange with you or inform you that money 
 would come to you to go into tho election fund ?) The question as set 
 forth on the top of page 10 hereof, viz : Did he not arrange with you 
 or inform you that money would come to you to go into the election ? 
 was then read to the witness, who answered : 
 Ans. Generally, yes, he did. 
 
 Ques. He wa3 not in town when this money came ? 
 Ans. No, he was away from Monday of that week and did not get 
 back till the following Saturday. 
 
 Ques. (The Chairman). You say now that Mr. Blair went away 
 on the Monday of that week ? 
 
 Aus. Yes, that is my present recollection. 
 
 Ques, (Mr. Pugsley). You did not see him till the following 
 Saturday ? Ans. I saw him after he came home trom Saint John. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did you tell him that this money had 
 come ? Ans. I do not think I did. 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not ? 
 Ans. I will swear I did not. 
 Ques. Will you swear you never told him ? 
 Ans. I will swear I never told him that this money came. 
 Ques. This or any money that came from Saint John ? 
 
 Hi 
 
 ,; 
 
67 
 
 Aus. Yes ; I will swear that I never told him that. 
 
 Ques. He got back at what time on Saturday ? 
 
 Ans. I think he came up in a special train after the Institute meet- 
 ing ; at what time he got here, 1 do not know. 
 
 Ques. Did he stay in town that day ? 
 
 Ans. He was in the office a part of the time. 
 
 Ques. When was this money sent out into the country for the elec- 
 tion ? 
 
 Ans. Well, it was sent out several days before polling ; sonie was 
 sent earlier and some later. 
 
 Ques. Some was sent on Saturday ? Ans. Yes, I think so. 
 
 Ques. Some on Sunday ? Ans. No ; I kept the Sabbath. 
 
 Ques. It was sent out into the different parts of the country during 
 the wcok ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then some was sent on Saturday ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Was a consideratile portion sent on Saturday night : did it 
 ■run on down to Saturday ? 
 
 Ans. A very inconsiderable portion, I should tay. 
 
 Ques. How much on Friday and Saturday ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know how much ; I could not state how much was 
 sent on Saturda}'. 
 
 Ques. Would it be to the extent of some hundreds of dollars ? (Ob- 
 jected to — immaterial. Mr. Pugsley asked for ruling of Committee). 
 
 Mr, Mitchell — It is immaterial whether ^1 or $100. 
 
 Mr. Hetheriiigton — It has been established that money was sent out, 
 and that is sufficient in my judgment. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I do not think we are here lor purpose of controlling 
 prosecution as to what is material, that will be a question for Committee 
 hereafter. That question arises hereafter. In my opinion, question 
 proper. 
 
 The Chairman — My opinion is against the question. 
 
 Mr. Atkinson — I think it ought to be admitted. 
 
 The Chairman — The opinion of the majority is against it. 
 
 Question ruled out. 
 
 Ques. You said there was no executive committee? Ana. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me who directed where the money was to go for 
 ■election purposes ? Ans. I did it largely myself. 
 
 Ques. Did you do it wholly yourself ? Ans. Almost wholly. 
 
 Ques. The amount and the persons to whom it was to go ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, almost wholly myself. 
 
■•ys^ 
 
 i- 
 
 :[t I, 
 
 68 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you had no instructions from the Attorney 
 General as to that? (Objected to — irrelevant to issue — immaterial). 
 
 Mr. Hanington urged its reception stating he did not propose to ask 
 what the instructions were. 
 
 (Question allowed). Mr. Hanington then puts it in this form : 
 
 Ques. Will you swear he did not give you instructions as to where 
 the money was to go or any part of it — ihat is the election fund ? 
 
 Aus. I answered that question before, that I have no distinct recol- 
 lection of Mr. Blair directing rae who was to get the money or where 
 it was to go. 
 
 Ques. Would you swear he did not? 
 
 Ans. I would not like to swear; but 1 have no distinct recollection 
 ot his mentioning any particular person or particular place where it was 
 to go, although I would not swear positively that he did not. 
 
 Ques. Then who did you consult — did any one of the Government 
 ticket? 
 
 Mr. Wilson — You said you were not going into the particulars ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I am not going into details. I have the right to put 
 the question. 
 
 Ques. Who did you consult or who consulted with or spoke to you 
 about where the election lund moneys or any part of it was to go, if no 
 Executive Committee ? (Objected to — irrelevant). 
 
 Mr. Hanington pressed its reception. It being charged it was used for 
 election purposes ot himself and supporters, 
 
 Messrs Mitchell and Hetherington thought it inadmissible. 
 
 Messrs Phinney and Atkinson thought it admissible, the former stat- 
 ing he wanted it distinctly understood that his assent to the question 
 being answered was solely upon the ground that it was confined to the 
 Attorney Genernl and his colleagues and their agents, 
 
 Mr. Hanington said that was all he proposed to do but he did not 
 want to name them. 
 
 The majority of Committee then ruled question out. 
 
 Ques Do you not know that Mr. Wilson, the candidate, and the 
 Chairman here, spoke to you and you to him on the subject of where 
 this election money w'as to go? (Objected to — irrelevant). 
 
 After the Chairman said he felt some little delicacy in expressing an 
 opinion on the question, as he was personally interested, he would with- 
 draw any objection ho had made to the question the witne.ss stated. 
 The Committee being 2 and 2. 
 
 Ans. I do not think he did; 1 have no recollection of his having done so. 
 
 ■ J* 
 
'W 
 
 69 
 
 the Attorney 
 —immaterial), 
 propose to ask 
 
 8 form : 
 ? as to where 
 on fund ? 
 distinct recol- 
 )ney or where 
 
 ct recollection 
 
 e where it was 
 
 lot. 
 
 e Government 
 
 rticulars ? 
 
 he right to put 
 
 spoke to you 
 as to go, if no 
 
 it was used for 
 
 Ae. 
 
 B former stat- 
 
 the question 
 
 onfined to the 
 
 it he did not 
 
 date, and the 
 !ot of where 
 t). 
 
 expressing an 
 le would with- 
 itne.-*3 stated. 
 
 iving done so. 
 
 Ques. Did you tell Mr. Wilson that any money came from Saint 
 John ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You say the Attorney General was not in tovsn that day; 
 do you know if Mr. Mitchell was in town ; did you see him ? 
 
 Ans. The present Secretary ? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? 
 
 Ans. I saw the Provincial Secretary in town for two or three days 
 the latter part of the preceding week. 
 
 Ques. You had no communication with him about this election busi- 
 ness ? Ans. About this Saint John business? 
 
 Ques. Or about the funds at all — the election funds ? 
 
 Ans. I think I did have some conversation with the Secretary about 
 election funds. 
 
 Ques. Had you any with reference to any money from Saint John? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. I think he was taking an active part in the elections liere, 
 was he not ? 
 
 Ans, Yes, he was, he was here polling day and at the polls. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. McLellan here that day ? 
 
 Ans. The Hon. Mr. McLellan? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? Ans. No, I do not think he was. 
 
 Ques. Nor any other member of the Government? 
 
 Ans. I do not think there was any other member of the Government 
 here ; I do not remember having seen ^Ir. ^rcLellan ; in fact I do not 
 think he was in Fredericton. 
 
 Ques. Did you communicate with Attorney General Blair that day, 
 and if so, where was he — that is the seventeenth of January ? 
 
 Ans. That was on Friday ? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? 
 
 Ans. i did communicate with Mr. Blair that 1 think at Canterbury 
 Station, where he was the previous night. 
 
 Ques. What time in the day? 
 
 Ans. I would not undertake to answer that, Mr. Hanington, and be 
 correct, 
 
 Ques. Was it upon the subject of the election ? 
 
 Ans. It was on the subject of his going to Saint John to speak at 
 the Institute that Friday night ; that was the only thing I communi- 
 cated with Mr. Blair that day about. 
 
 Ques. He went to Saint John ? Ans, Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do vou know how he went ? 
 
 i 
 
rn 
 
 r» 
 
 \ 
 
 h -I 
 
 ■t ■■ 
 
 ll 
 
 m 
 
 h'H 
 
 Ans. I presume lie must iiave gone down by the afternoon train. T 
 was just going to say I am not sure whetlier it was Friday morning or 
 Thursday night I did it. I know I telegraphed him at Canterbury, 
 whether it was in the morning before he left there, or in the evening, I 
 am not quite sure. 
 
 Ques. Ho had a meeting at Canterbury on Thursday evening? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And then he did not come back here till Saturday morning? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Which office was it sent through ? 
 
 Ans. I think all the telegraphing I did was through the Western 
 Union. 
 
 Cross-examined hy Mr. Pucjsley : 
 
 Ques. You are aware that Mr. Blair went to Saint John to speak at 
 the Institute ? Ans. I was aware he got a telegram to go. 
 
 Ques. Are you aware that the friends of the Government were 
 anxious he should come and address a public meeting there? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I am aware of that fact. 
 
 Ques. During the election campaign, was Mr. Blair nearly all the 
 time out through the country ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he was a very little portion of the time in Frederictou 
 from the time the campaign opened till the close, and I saw very little 
 of him, indeed. 
 
 Ques. You said that Mr. Murphy never said or intimated to you 
 that the Saint John dock had anything to do' with this money ? 
 
 Ans. The Saint John dock was never mentioned between Murphy 
 and I. 
 
 Ques. Do you say that he simply said that he was expecting word 
 from Saint John, and afterwards lie told you he got word and he handed 
 you the money ? Ans. Yos. 
 
 Ques. I suppose you could not tell how many thousand dollars was 
 spent on the other side by the opposition ? 
 
 Ans. No, I would not like to undertake that. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you this. There is something alleged about a con- 
 tract with Mr. Leary ; did you ever see any such contract, or hear 
 anything of the contract ? 
 
 Ans. I never heard of any contract until I saw it announced in the 
 press that it was signeil. 
 
 Ques. There was no contract prepared' in your office ? 
 
 Ans. No, not that I know of. 
 
w 
 
 ''•^^ ■ 
 
 71 
 
 nioou train. T 
 tiy morning or 
 .t Canterliury, 
 the evening, I 
 
 jvening 
 
 ay morning ? 
 
 1 tlio Western 
 
 Iin to speak at 
 
 ■ernraent were 
 sre ? 
 
 nearly all the 
 
 n Frederictou 
 !a\v very little 
 
 mated to you 
 
 ney ? 
 
 ween Murphy 
 
 cpectiug word 
 ind he banded 
 
 id dollars was 
 
 ahout a con- 
 ract, or hear 
 
 )unced in the 
 
 Ques. You never heard of any contract being prepared for the dock 
 at St. John till then? Aus. No. 
 lie-examined by Mr. Hanington: 
 
 Ques. Do you say that you did not know of any contract being 
 prepared ? Ans. I say 1 did not know of any. 
 
 Ques. Does not the Attorney General prepare the contracts ? 
 
 Ans. 1 presume he does, he or the other crown officer ; there 
 might i)e lots of contracts prepared as Government business that I do 
 not know anything about being prepared, and I would not know unless 
 the Attorney General asked me to draft it or have it prepared. 
 
 Ques. Then you do not know of any contract having been prepared 
 in relation to the St. John dock ? 
 
 Ans. I am positive that I saw no contract with the Government 
 with regard to Mr. Leary, and had nothing to do with the preparation 
 of it, and had not known of it until announced in the papers. 
 
 Ques, Then it was not done in the office. Do you know that the 
 Solicitor General was then acting for Leary as counsel? 
 
 Ans. No, I thought it was G. K. Pugsley. 
 
 They are brothers ; do you know whether they are partners 
 Ans. No, I do not know. 
 You thought his brother was acting for Mr. Leary? 
 Yes, I saw it announced in the papers ; that was my only 
 knowledge. 
 
 Ques. You do not know who drew the contract? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. But you know that in the Attorney General's office at 
 Frederictou you did not see it? Ins. I know that. 
 
 Ques. And when it was sent, you do not know, except from the 
 dtite ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Who took it to St. John, you do not know, or do you? 
 
 Ans^. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear who took it to St. John at that time ] Ans.. No. 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Murphy or somebody speak of it going to St. 
 .John that day? Ans. I have no recollection. 
 
 Ques. Why, hesitate? 
 
 Ans. 1 did not hesitate ; I am not hesitating, I am just seeking to 
 give a correct answer. 
 
 Ques. Do you know when it went from Frederictou to St. John? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you have any communication about it at all — was there 
 
 Ques. 
 
 or not? 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 
ij 
 
 ^\\ 
 
 f 
 
 
 '■" ■ " ■ ;->" 
 
 72 
 
 
 ''IK 
 II 
 
 [I i*t : 
 11 ■ 
 
 any communication came that you saw in reference to that contract 
 going to St. John, or anything about that? 
 
 Aus. I have no recollection of any communication in reference to 
 that contract. 
 
 Ques. Have you any recollection of any co'jmunication with refer- 
 ence to a contract Avith Leary, or about the docks? 
 
 Ans. I have a recollection of a communication asking me to send 
 some paper to St. John. 
 
 Ques. Who from? 
 
 Ans. I think that telegram came from — well, I would not say now. 
 
 Ques. As near as you can tell ? 
 
 Ans. I would not undertake to say. 
 
 Ques. As near as your recollection serves you ? 
 
 Ans. My recollection is not sufficiently clear to state, to my own 
 satisfaction. 
 
 Ques. Who do you thiulc it was from? 
 
 Ans. My impression is, it was from St. John. 
 
 Ques. To send the papers to St. John ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. When did you get that ; it was a telegram ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, it was a telegram or a telephone communication. 
 
 Ques. Was that sent to you on the seventeenth of January ? 
 
 Ans. I would not undertake to say when it was. 
 
 Ques. Was it not the day that he left Canterbury ? 
 
 Alls. No, I do not know it was. 
 
 Ques. You do not know the date ? Ans. No, I do not know the date. 
 
 Ques. Were not those papers connected with the dock? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember, I know I did not read the paper. 
 
 Ques. Have you got the telegram ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Where is it? 
 
 Ans. I always destroy at the end of the month all my papers that 
 are of no use to me, and all those telegrams are destroyed. 
 
 Ques. Do you tell me you destroy telegrams ? 
 
 Ans. I generally do at the end of the month, when I am iiling away 
 my letters. 
 
 Ques. Did you, in consequence of getting that telegram, send cer- 
 tain papers to St. John ? 
 
 Aus. I either sent them oi some one in the office. ''" 
 
 Ques. In whose office ? Ans. In our office. 
 
 Ques. They were sent ? 
 
73 
 
 Id not say now. 
 
 xte, to my own 
 
 I ara 111 in? away 
 
 wram, send cer- 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is the instructions contained in the telegram were 
 "Carried out. 
 
 Ques. And you tell us now that had no reference to the docks or 
 improvements at St. John ? 
 
 Ans. I say that I have not the slightest recollection as to the docks. 
 
 Ques. At any rate those papers were sent ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell what mail they went l>y ? 
 
 Ans. No, nor the date of the telegram. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell about when ? Ans. I would not be sure. 
 
 Ques. Was it when Mr. Blair was away that week ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you sent them ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you mention of having received word from Mr. Blair to 
 Mr. Murphy ? 
 
 Ans. No, in fact Mr. Murphy and I talked very little ; he is not a 
 Tery talkative man. 
 
 Ques. Then, so far as you know, you do not know when it was 
 sent? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You do not know whether the then Provincial Secretary 
 was here? Ans. I think he was not here. 
 
 Ques. You had, if I understand you correctly, in Mr. Blair's 
 absence, a message b}' telegraph or telephone to send certain papers to 
 St. John, which papers, Avhat they related to, you do not now recol- 
 lect, is that correct ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you sent them to him? 
 
 Ans. No, I think they were sent to the Solicitor General. 
 
 Ques. Who was the Solicitor General ? 
 
 Ans. The Hon. Mr. Pugsley. 
 
 Ques. Then certain papers were to be sent from here to Mr. 
 [Pugsley, and they were sent; they were up thero in your office, or 
 [■did you come down to the department to get them? 
 
 Ans. No, they were in the law office. 
 In Mr. Blair's room ? 
 Yes, 1 expect they would be there. 
 On his own table ? Ans. Yes. 
 And thuse were sent? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Do you know if the message was telegraph or a telephone 
 Ans. I think it was a telegraph message. 
 
 Ques. Was it a considerable bunch of papers? 
 
 Ans. No, it was not ; I remember of havins: scon a contract or 
 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 lessage ? 
 
( \ ;p./- 
 
 74 
 
 I: i 
 
 I;: 
 
 11! 
 
 Komo paper or writing ilono with tlie typewriter in Mr. Blair's office ; 
 I thought it was a very small paper. 
 
 Ques. You had seen it there, it was done by the typewriter what 
 you saw in Mr. Blair's office ? Ans. Yes, 
 
 Ques. You spoke of a contract? 
 
 Ans. That was sent, I saw it was something connected with Gov- 
 ernment business, and I never bother my head with such things. 
 
 Ques. You used the Avord "contract "' in some connection with it. 
 What was that ? 
 
 Ans. I used the word " contract " because you had used the word 
 in your question. 
 
 Ques. You had ) ) idea whether a draft contract or a contract, oi 
 what it was ? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 nevc" read the Government business. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell what time you received that message ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Or the time you sent the paper? 
 
 Ans. No, I could not tell the day nor the hour, because I would 
 not attempt to do so in justice to myself. 
 
 (^ues. Can you say whether you got that despatch and had sent 
 those papers before Mr. Murphy came up or not ? 
 
 Ans- Inasmuch as I do not remem.ber when I got it, and do remem- 
 ber when Murphy was up ; I cannot answer that question. 
 
 lie- cross- examined hy Mr. Pugsley: 
 
 Ques. You spoke of my brother being counsel for Mr. Leary : 
 have you any other knowledge outside of the newspapers? 
 
 Ans. 1 saw it in the papers that Mr. Gilbert Pugsley had pur- 
 chased some property for him in Carleton. 
 
 Ques. Have you ever spoken to him about it? 
 
 Ans. I had no conversation in my life with Gilbert Pugsley abcuU 
 it, but my knowledge is just from seeing the papers. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did you reply to Mr. Blair that you 
 had sent the papei-s ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not think 1 did, I have no recollection of having 
 done so ; I was pretty busy at the time, and I did no more corres- 
 pondence than I could help. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinuey). Before Mr. Murphy came up from St. 
 John, did you know he was coming; had you any intimation he was 
 coming ? . 
 
75 
 
 used the won! 
 
 a contract, or 
 
 because I would 
 1 and hiid sont 
 
 for Mr. Leary, 
 
 srs? 
 
 igsley had pur- 
 
 Ans. 
 Qiies. 
 Qiies. 
 Ans. 
 
 Ans. Yes ; but I did not know Mr. .Murphy was coming ; I knew 
 lomebody was coming. 
 Ques. How did you learn tiiat '. 
 
 I had received a communication from St. ilohn. 
 From whom? Ans. From the Solicitor Genera!. 
 The present Solicitor General ? 
 Yes, the gentleman to my left. 
 
 Have you that comniunic.ition ? Ans. N(.», I have not. 
 Ques. The communication informed you that some parson was 
 [oraing up from St. .John ? 
 Ans. It said a party would call on me that night. 
 Ques. For what? Ans. I do not think it stated. 
 Ques. For what purpose ? 
 
 Aus. My recollection of the telephonic message; it was a tele- 
 [honic message, because I think it was written out in the telegraph 
 jffice and sent to me; my recollection is that it was to the effect that 
 le friends of the Government party, or the Government party in 
 fork, or something like that, would send a messenger up from St. 
 John, and for me to see him that evening, and, therefore, I was ex- 
 lecting him. 
 
 Ques. Had you any knowledge of what his mission was at that 
 |mc — that is what the mission of the messenger was at that time? 
 Ans. No, my present remembrance is that that was the first inti- 
 lation I had of it. 
 
 Ques, Had you no shrewd suspicion of what it was ? 
 Ans. I had a suspicion — wc all have onr suspicions — whether 
 jrewd or not. 
 
 Ques. You were in Avaiting for him° 
 Ans. I was in my office — yes. 
 ^SQues. Waiting his arrival? Ans. Expecting his arrival. 
 Ques. Then it was no surprise when he called at the office ? 
 Ans. None whatever. 
 
 [Ques. Did you require any introduction to him ? 
 Ans. No, 1 had known him for several years. 
 [Ques. Did he ever meet you in your office before ? 
 JAus. Not where we are at present located ; he was never in my 
 ice where it is at present, before. 
 
 ^ues. Do you say he told you when he arrived he had a parcel for 
 |u? Ans. I do not think I said that. 
 
7G 
 
 "Ques. What did he tell you when he came to your office? 
 
 Aus. What was the previous question ? 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you when he arrived that he had left a parcel for 
 you at Gunter's — I understood you to say that he told you he had a 
 parcel for you but you did not know what it wa& ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I said anything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. What did he tell you when he came? 
 
 Aus. I told Mr. Hanington that Murphy and I talked very little 
 that night. He intimated that he would see me in the morning. 
 
 Ques. The way I have it here is : " The evening before he told me 
 his business ; he told me he had a package to give to me." Is that 
 correct. " I understood it was a package of money." Is that correct? 
 
 Ans. I would like to see what the reporter has. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand that from what he said or from what 
 you heard from St. John? Ans. From what I heard from St, John. 
 
 Ques. Then the intimation was an intimation that a messenger was 
 coming with money? Ans. Yes, that is the impression I had. 
 
 Ques. What amouvit of money? Ans. It did not state. 
 
 Ques. Did you know where it was coming from? 
 
 Ans. I knew it was coming from St. John. 
 
 <^ues. Did you know the source ! 
 
 Au3. No, I did not seek to inquire. 
 
 Ques. Did you know that Kelly & Murphy contributed it? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know who contributed it, and do not know yet. 
 
 Ques. Knowing it was money and anticipating it was money, did 
 3'ou ask him for it? 
 
 Ques. No. I am very glad that you asked me that question. 
 
 Ques. Why did you not ask him — was this the messenger you 
 were expecting? Ans. No, it was not. 
 
 Qnos. Who did you expect? Ans. 1 expected Alderman Kelly. 
 
 Ques. You expected him, and then you were surprised to find Mr. 
 Murphy come? Aus. No, not surprised. 
 
 Ques. After getting over the measure of surprise you had, diil j 
 you not ask him for the money ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not ask him for the money. 
 
 Ques. Did he volunteer to tell you anything about the money ? 
 
 Ans. Perhaps I misunderstand your question; do you mean if I| 
 asked him to hand over the money or asked about it? 
 
 Ques. Did you ask him about the money when he came ? 
 
77 
 
 a parcel for 
 ou he had u 
 
 id very little 
 rning. 
 
 e he told me 
 
 lie." Is that 
 
 that correct? 
 
 or from what 
 nil St. John, 
 lessenger was 
 Ihad. 
 [itc. 
 
 it? 
 
 not know yet. 
 money, did 
 
 uestion. 
 lessenger you 
 
 eiiinui Kelly, 
 ed to tind Mv. 
 
 you had, did i 
 
 le money ? 
 ou moan if Ij 
 
 ime? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember that I asked him ; he volunteered ; I do 
 not pretend to remember the conversation we had. 
 
 Ques. Then did you express to Mr. Murphy your Sirprise that 
 Kelly had not come? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Why more reasonably expect Kelly than Murphy? 
 
 Ans. I expected it from the nature of the communication I had re- 
 ceived. 
 
 Ques. Did I understand that the communication in so many words 
 informed you that Kelly was coming ? 
 
 Ans. That is tbe impression I have of it now. 
 
 Ques. Your communication was that Kelly was to come from St. 
 John with a certain amount of money for election purposes? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And that was from the present Solicitor General, Mr. 
 Pugsley? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then about this money — the next morning you and he- 
 counted it over? Ans. The next afternoon. 
 
 Ques. You counted it over ? Ans. Yes, part. 
 
 Ques. How much was there ? 
 
 Ans. Three packages of $500 each, it was all in $5 bills of the 
 Bank of British North America. 
 
 Ques. Where did you put it when you got it? 
 
 Ans. I put it into my own safe in the office. 
 
 Ques. Who took it out? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. You put it into your own safe? 
 
 Ans. Yes. It was a safe I had before going into partnership, and 
 |I moved it into there. 
 
 Ques. Was all this money spent in York County? 
 
 Ans. I Avould not undertake to say that. 
 
 Ques. None of it went over to Northumberland ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot tell where it goes after I lose control of it. 
 
 Ques. Do you not feel any interest in knowing? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I take a vital interest in it. 
 
 Ques. You put it into the hands of trusty persons ? 
 
 Ans. I supi^osed they were trusty and I think they were. 
 
 Ques. When you received instructions from the Attorney General 
 |o forward the documents, did you noi know what documents you had 
 |o forward? Ans. I would have known if the communication said so. 
 
 Ques. How did you get hold of the proper document to send ? 
 

 m 
 
 I' <i 
 
 i 
 
 Ans. Bocnusc the coniimiiiicntioii spoke of a contrnct or some paper 
 hctwccn the Govoninient, aiid it was sent to Mr. Piigsley. There was 
 sometliing connecting Mr. Pngsley with it, but I don't remember what 
 the communication said. 
 
 Ques. Your impression and your recollection is that it referred to a 
 contract? Ans. My impression is, it referred to a contract. 
 
 Ques. That would bo very indeliiiite information. How did yon 
 know what contract, or what information did you get? 
 Ans. Because Mr. Blair left very few papers there. 
 
 Did he designate the pigeon hole? Ans. I think he did. 
 ^Yas it sealed ? An;-,. No, it was open. 
 Do you pretend to say you did not exaniine it f* 
 I examined it so far as to identify it witli the telegram. 
 Cannot you tell us from that identitication what it was? 
 No, 1 could not. 
 
 Have you no idea of what the paper was V 
 I have no recollection now what the paper was. 
 Have you any idea it was a contract between the Govern- 
 ment and J. D. Leary ? 
 Ans. Not from anything that I remember of having heard at the time. 
 Or seen at the time? Ans. No. 
 Have you any knowledge about it? 
 I have no recollection about it. 
 
 Have you any doubt about it in your own mind that it was! 
 the identical document? 
 
 Ans. I would say to that, I have no doubts one way or the other;] 
 I would say that I do not know what the contract or paper was. 
 Ques. Did you ever see the Leary contract? Ans. I may have. 
 Ques. The typewritten copy? 
 Ans. 1 would not swear I have ever seen it, or not now, althougl)| 
 I would not swear f did not see it. 
 Ques. Was it drafted in your office? 
 
 Ans. I would not say ; I answered Mr. Hanington those questionsl 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsle}'). You say that I telegraphed you from St.f 
 
 John that some friends of the Government there were willing to assist| 
 
 in the York election, and that Kelly would be up that evening? 
 
 Ans. Yes. (Mr. Phinney raised objection to Mr. Pugsley further! 
 examining witness. Mr. Pugsley then said it was no matter, and Mr.[ 
 Phinney withdrew his objection). 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
79 
 
 oiuc paper 
 There wii^? 
 mbev what 
 
 fcrred to u 
 t. 
 
 Qiies. 
 
 )W did you 
 
 ♦.;>nc8. 
 
 ( «iUC8. 
 
 
 .* Afls. 
 
 If he did. 
 
 ' QlKiS. 
 
 Ti-aiu. 
 it wasV 
 
 the Govern- 
 •d ut tiie time. 
 
 id that it was 
 
 |ov the other; I 
 !!• was. 
 jl may have. 
 
 Low, althougb 
 
 lose questiousl 
 jou from St.j 
 pling to assist) 
 
 leniug? 
 igsley furtheij 
 Uter, and Mr. 
 
 Ques. \>';is that the tir.st intimation you had tliat anyone wan 
 cHiining from St. John'' Ans. Yeii*. 
 
 .John Kkllv Co/led, iSirorn and Examined hif Mr. Ifamn;/(nu : 
 
 Yoxi reside in St. ilohn? Ans. Yes. 
 You aie of the tirni of Ivelly it Murphy? Ans. Yes. 
 You rcmcml)er the la.st election in St. John ? 
 Yes, have a distinct recollection of it. 
 At the election time and about the election time, there was 
 vousiderSvWe discussion, was there not, as to the dock works and the 
 contract for the works? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You took a very active part in it — you were an.xious to have 
 the dock built? Ans. Yes, and the improvements also. 
 
 (^uos. Y'ou took a very active part in getting a contract entered into 
 in that way, did you not, and you were anxious that a contract should 
 be made for those works ? Ans. With whom ? 
 
 Ques. I am not asking you about that at present. You were very 
 nnxjous that the city should enter into a contract for the works? 
 Ans. For the works, yes. 
 Ques. With Mr. Lcary? 
 
 Ans. Not particularly with Leary at first, but with Leary when he 
 made the proposition and was satisfactory to the Council. I want to 
 place myself right in this matter — 
 
 Ques. Allow me to put the questions? 
 
 Ans. I shall answer them as my conscience dictates. I want to 
 answer any question you put to me that is right and I want to answer 
 them just as they took place. 
 
 Ques. Were you anxious that the contract should be entered into 
 for the construction of those works? Ans. I was. 
 Ques. Very anxious, were you not ? 
 
 Ans. Not very anxious, but anxious as any citizen would be for the 
 general welfare of his own place. 
 Ques. Y''ou took a more active part than most citizens ? 
 Ans. Not particularly. 
 
 Ques. Y'ou were an alderman, were you not ? Ans. Yes. 
 <^ue8. And did you not take an active part in getting those im- 
 provements as such? Ans. I did what I do in all matters. 
 Ques. 1 did not ask you in all matters ? 
 
80 
 
 Aps. 1 took a part in it, not so active as I might, 
 
 Qucs, Did you not discuss it on the streets and other places ? 
 
 Alls. Yes, but I do that with all matters of public interest, 
 generally. 
 
 Que';. But this was one of the most important questions that camo 
 up within the last three or lour months in the City of Saint John, was 
 it not? Ans. For the last lew years, you may say. 
 
 Ques. You were anxious that the contract should lie given ? 
 
 Ans. I was anxious when a proposition was made satisfactory to 
 the Council it should be accepted by the City. 
 
 Ques. And when Leaiy brought his proposition you were anxious 
 that that one should be accepted 1 Ans. 1 was. 
 
 Ques. And you took a very active part in getting it accepted ? 
 
 Ans. 1 did. 
 
 Ques. You knew when he made this proposition that it could not 
 be carried out unless the Government entered into a contract with him. 
 too? xVns. That was the prospects. 
 
 Ques. You knew that as a fact ? 
 
 Ans. That he would not be able to carry out the contract if he did 
 not. 
 
 Ques. That the amount given by the City alone was not sufficient* 
 and he would not enter into one unless the Government aided him? 
 
 Ans. He stated that he would not enter into it unless he got the 
 three subsidies — one from the City, and one from the Provincial 
 Government and another from the Dominion Government, and that he 
 did not know he would be justilied in going on with thr contract; I 
 do not mean to say be would not enter into a contr. but I meant to 
 say that he would not proceed with the work until he had that 
 ofi"'rantee. 
 
 Ques. And in order that he should get aid, you used all the in- 
 tluence you had with the Government, did you not? 
 
 Ans. 1 was one of a delegation of four appointed by the Council to I 
 wait upon the Government, and in that capacity 1 used what inlluence 
 I had from that capacity, and was using it as strongly as I usually do 
 to get them to give the person or persons the Council would name thej 
 contract, and not particularly with regard to Leary. 
 
 Ques, But did you not urge upon the Government to give it t»| 
 Leary ? Ans. If the plans were satisfactory. 
 
 Ques. The plans were satisfactory to the Council ? 
 
ices ? 
 
 I interest, 
 
 that camo 
 John, was 
 
 en ? 
 isfactory to 
 
 jre anxious 
 
 epted ? 
 
 it could not 
 ct with hiui 
 
 ict if he di(J 
 
 )t sufficients 
 
 led him? 
 
 he got the 
 
 Provincial 
 
 and that he 
 
 contract ; I 
 
 t I meant to 
 
 he had that 
 
 3d all the in- 
 
 10 Council to 
 
 hat inlluence 
 
 1 usually do 
 
 aid name the 
 
 , to give it to 
 
 81 
 
 Ans. They have not been yet, to my knowledge, 
 
 Ques. If the plans were satisfiictory, you were anxious that the 
 Provincial Government should enter into a contract with Leary for 
 that work? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you also used your iniluenco as a supporter of the Gov- 
 ernment, and not only us a delegate? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You were a very strong supporter of theirs? 
 
 Ans. Yes, for the last while I was — not always, though. 
 
 (iues. You were not a supporter formerly ; this is the first elec- 
 tion that you have become a supporter of theirs, is that it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, on account of the trouble that arose. 
 
 Ques. 1 am not iisking you about that; is it a fact or not that this^ 
 is the first election that you have been a supporter of theirs ? 
 
 Ans. Of the lilair administration, it is. 
 
 Ques. That being so, you were anxious, were you not, about it ; 
 but first, did you not understand from Leary that the $2500 that was 
 authorized by law was not a sufficient subsidy for the Government to 
 give to authorize his building the works; you understood that from 
 Leary? Ans. He stated so to the Council. 
 
 Ques. And stated so to you? 
 
 Ans. Never. I never had a consultation with him privately, good, 
 bad or indifferent. 1 am speaking now privately. I never had any 
 conversation with Leary that was not in the public interests, and with 
 public men present at the same time, and when I say that I mean per- 
 sons of the City Council of St. John — understand me, Mr. Hanington, 
 I do not want to be considered insulting at all, but I want to answer 
 your questions just as they are, as this will go all over the country, 
 and as I have nothing to fear from the investigation as to my honor, 
 integrity and reputation. 
 
 Ques. Then I take it you did urge it upon the Governmenl; 
 which members of the Government did you speak to upon that subject? 
 
 Ans. I spoke to them ail - to every one of them when I was here 
 as a delegate. 
 
 Ques. When was that? 
 
 Ans. I think it was some time in December. 
 
 Ques. When the Government met the delegation, they did not 
 give you any answer that they would agree to the proposition ? 
 
 Ans. The only answer I got was that the Attorney General stated 
 in the Council there in the presence of all that I wanted to take him 
 6 
 
im 
 
 i ' 11 
 
 i! I 
 
 1; 
 
 ft 
 
 ii 
 
 i 
 
 82 
 
 by the throat and make him give tije contract to whom the Council 
 ■would award their $10,000. 
 
 Ques. You say that took place in the Co-uicil? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I do not say those were his words, that was the effect 
 that we wanted them to take the people who would get the assent of 
 the Council, and the Attorney General thought I was pressing him to 
 get an answer from him that evening that he would give the contract 
 to Lcur^' or anybody else that the Council decided to give the con- 
 tract to from the City. 
 
 Ques. The result of what I was asking you was that they would 
 not tell you then that they would give you the contract ? 
 
 Ans. That is it. 
 
 Ques. And they never did tell you while before the Council that 
 they would give you the contract? Ans. That is so. 
 
 Ques. When did he first tell you he would give the contract? 
 
 Ans. 1 never had any statement from him — never to this day. 
 
 Ques. When did the Solicitor General first tell you that they would 
 give the contract to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. The Solicitor General on that evening spoke to me and said 
 that they would consider it, and not to press the Attorney General — 
 perhaps I am a little impulsive upon these matters and act quickly — 
 the consequence was, however, that the Solicitor General spoke to me 
 saying that they would consider the matter and we could rest assured ; 
 and also the then Provincial Secretary said that they would endeavor 
 to get the subsidy for the person whoever it was, that the City Council 
 agreed to, if the plans were correct. 
 
 Ques. And Leary was the man if the plans were right? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Had they then agreed to give the contract to Leary if the 
 plans were right ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, on the resolution they had passed, if the plans and 
 specifications were satisfactory. 
 
 Ques. But the Government never agreed to it while you were be- 
 fore them as a delegate to give Leary the contract? 
 
 Ans. Not on the occasion of the delegation. 
 
 Ques. When were you first informed that they would give the con- 
 tract to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. The Solicitor General informed me, perhaps shortly after. 
 
 Ques. Give the date ? Ans. My memory is very bad on the date. 
 
 ). 'i 
 
83 
 
 Ques. You cannot give rae any idea ? 
 
 Ans. Not the slightest ; you see in politics these days slide along 
 pretty quickly. 
 
 Ques. Then you are unable to give the slightest idea as to the date 
 he told you that Leary would have the contract? 
 
 Ans. No, I could not. 
 
 Adjourned till 2.30 p. m. 
 
 Met pursuant to adjournment at 2.30 p. ni. Committee all present. 
 
 Exan)ination of Mr. .John Kelly resumed by Mr. Hauington. 
 
 Ques. Then was Leary himself in St. John at the time of the 
 election" Ans. I think not. 
 
 Ques. Nor had not been for some time? 
 
 Ans. I do not think so. 
 
 Ques. How long before that had he been there? 
 
 Ans. I do not think he had been in St. John from December. 
 
 Ques. Till after the elections? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Has he been back there since? Ans. Yes, once. 
 
 Ques. How long after the elections did he come? 
 
 Ans. I think it was some time in February, 
 
 Ques. Who was representing him then in St. John in connection 
 '\'ith this contract — in the negotiations for this contract? 
 
 Ans. I know nothing more about it than the statement made. 
 
 Ques. Who negotiated with the city? 
 
 Ans. He first did that himself, 
 
 Ques. Who negotiated with the Government? 
 
 Ans. I do not know who was negotiating with the Government 
 any more than the committee. 
 
 Ques. Which committee? Ans. The delegation. 
 
 Ques. You were one of them? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You do not know any one who negotiated with the Govern- 
 ment to get this contract except your committee and yoiu'self .? 
 
 Ans. Yes, the delegation that waited upon the Government, and 1 
 was one of them, myself. 
 
 Ans. Who were the delegation? 
 
 Ans. His Worship the Mayor, Aid. Baskin, Connor and Lewis and 
 myself; I am not positive about Ud. Lewis, but think it was he. 
 
 Ques. Did you wait upon the Government more than once? 
 
 Ans. Once only. 
 
 Ques. What date was that ? Ans. Some time in December. 
 
If: 
 
 84 
 
 Ques. Did not you yourself see some of the Government after- 
 wards and urge this upon them? Ans. I spoke to the members. 
 
 Ques. Did you not urge it upon the Government or members of 
 the Government? 
 
 Ans. I urged that they should give the contract to the i)erson whom 
 the Council ti[)pr()ved of. 
 
 Ques. And that was Leary '{ 
 
 Ans. That, they should give the contract to who the City Council 
 gave it to. 
 
 Ques. That was Lcary then was it not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 (Jues. But when you urged them the City Council had given it to- 
 Leary r Ans. Thoy have not given it yet to Leary. 
 
 (iues. Not so far as the plans arc concerned ? 
 
 Ans. On the basis that the plans were satisfactory. I don't want 
 to convey the idea that the City Council has adopted their plans. 
 
 Ques. When did the City Coiuicil so ajjree to give that contract? 
 I think it was about December. 
 
 Do jou mean December or January or November? 
 1 say it was in about December? 
 
 Have you any doubt it was in December? Ans. Have I? 
 Yes ? Ans. I thirds it was in December. 
 That being so after the City Council had agreed to that and 
 you had waited upon the Government here, which you state was in 
 December, did you not yourself urge members of the Government to 
 "ive that contract to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. Personally to the Solicitor General. 
 
 Ques. Personally you did ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you not urge it very strongly upon them to do so ? 
 
 Ans. No stronger than I usually do for anything I ask. 
 
 Ques. Did you urge it strongly upon them ? 
 
 Ans. If you define the word strongly. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know what strongly means; did you not toll 
 them you were very anxious to have it done I 
 
 Ans. I wa-s very anxious. 
 
 Ques. Do you say that? 
 
 Aus. I do not know that 1 used that word. 
 
 Ques. What do you say? 
 
 Ans. I felt as a member of the City Council that the Government 
 should consider the claims made by the City. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
85 
 
 Ques. You lokl of that up hero? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Is that all the expression yeu used ? 
 
 Ans. I do not exactly remember the words used. 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell them you would not assist them in the 
 election unless they did? Ans. I do not know as I did. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not? 
 
 Ans. To the best of ray knowledge and belief I think I never said 
 6uch a thing. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you never said it to them ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I did. 
 
 Ques. Well, you did not? Ans. I am on my oath. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not ? 
 
 Ans. I have answered that question. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not tell thera that you would not 
 assist them in their election unless they did give the contract to 
 Leary ? (Objected to). Ans. No. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley states his objection is that counsel should not cross- 
 examine his own witness. 
 
 Ques. Which members of the Government did you speak to iu 
 that way outside of the time you were here on the delegation ? 
 
 Ans. The Solicitor General is the principal one I had any conver- 
 sation with, and also with the ox-Provincial Secretary, but very sel- 
 dom with him. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you never spoke to the Attorney General on 
 the subject fror^ tho time up here in Fredericton until after the election ? 
 
 Ans. Until after the election I swear positively that I never spoke 
 to the Attorney General good, bad, or indillerent, and never saw him 
 but once. 
 
 Ques. Where did you see him ? Ans. I saw him in St. John. 
 
 Ques. Where ? 
 
 Ans. In the hotel the night he came to deliver his speech. 
 
 Ques. The night ot the seventeenth January? 
 
 Ans. I think it was. 
 
 Ques. Is not that the very day the contract was delivered ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know anything about the contract. 
 
 Ques. You swear that? Ans. That is what I am doing now. 
 
 Ques. You swore a while ago that Mr. Pugsley told you that the 
 -contract would be given to Leary. Tell me, will you swear that was 
 not the very day he told you ? 
 
 ggljjl^y^ 
 
 ^MiiiiiiiiiMil. 
 
 j<i 
 
86 
 
 
 if: 
 
 i 
 
 Ans. I will swear it positively he did not. 
 
 Ques. What did he tell you? 
 
 Ans. Always from the time I met him up stairs that it was the in- 
 tention of the Government to give the contract, and as a member of 
 the Government, he would use his influence and insist upon giving the 
 contract to the person to whom the ('ity gave it. 
 
 Ques. He told you it was the intention of the Government to give 
 it, and he always told you he had used his influence to do it? 
 
 Ans. Yes. , 
 
 Qucs. If it was the intention of the Government to give it how 
 could he say he would use his influence to get it? (Objected to. 
 Counsel could not cross-examine his own witness). 
 
 Mr. Haningtou urged its reception on the ground that it was for the 
 purpose of testing his memory and the correctness of the statement. 
 
 Messrs. Mitchell and Hetherington thought it should be ruled out. 
 
 Mr. Phiuney said it was admissible as witness should be given an 
 opportunity if ho has made inconsistent statement to explain it. 
 
 Question ruled out. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that the first time he told you the contract 
 was made was not the 17th January, the date it was actually made ? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Pugsley never told mc about the contract when it was 
 signed or anything about it, any more than to tell me the Government 
 would give the contract to Leary on the same basis as the City Council 
 wa6 given the contract. 
 
 Ques. Then he never told you it was signed at all ? 
 
 Ans. I never knew it was signed ; I never bothered my head 
 about it. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not know on the evening of the 17th 
 January? Ans. Certainly I did not. 
 
 Ques. When did you see it first ? Ans. In the newspapers. 
 
 Ques, When was that ? Ans. It was long after the 17th January. 
 
 Ques. How long after ? Ans. Some time ; when it was reported. 
 
 Ques. Three, four or five days ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. How many days after was it ? 
 
 Ans. It might be five or twenty-five. 
 
 Ques. Were you not at that meeting when the telegram was read? 
 
 Ans. No ; I saw it in the newspapers the next morning. 
 
 Ques. When was the meeting? Ans. I was not at the meeting. 
 
 Ques. Was not the meeting on the 17th ? (Objected to. Counsel. 
 
 iFii ir-iiirT'ir"~' "'"^""'-^"'" 
 
read ? 
 
 87 
 
 could not cross-examiue his own witness and asked that it he ruled out). 
 
 Mr. Mitchell — It must be tirst proved he is an hostile witness before 
 you can cross-examine him. 
 
 Mr. Phinncy thought examination should not be restricted. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington acquiesced in Mr, Mitchell's view. 
 
 The Chairman to Mr. Ilanington — The opinion of the Committee is 
 that you have no right to cross-examine this witness unless he is 
 proved hostile. 
 
 Ques. What day did he tell you that Leary should have the con- 
 tract? Ans. Who? 
 
 Ques. Mr. Pugsley .? 
 
 Ans. Well, I would not say as to the day we had considerable 
 talk ; he and I were daily talking on the matter. 
 
 Ques. You cannot give me any idea of the day ? 
 
 Ans. Whenever the matter came up and we talked in relation to 
 tbe City, he always showed a good will in favor of it, and to granting 
 the contract to Leary on certain conditions. 
 
 Ques. I did not sisk you as to his favoring it or youi" good dispo- 
 sition toward it. I asked you when it was he told you that the Gov- 
 ernment had given the contract to Leary? 
 
 Ans. 1 think it was after the elections that Mr. Pugsley told me 
 the contract was signed. 1 had heard it on the streets a few days be- 
 fore that it was signed, because some of the persons who — 
 
 Ques. A few days before when ? Ans. Before the election. 
 
 Ques. Are you telling the truth now, sir? 
 
 (Objected to. Ruled out by majority of Committee — .Mitchell, 
 and Hetherington and Chairman). 
 
 Ques. Is what you are saying now the truth? (Ruled (jut). 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell me a little while ago that you did not hear 
 he had the contract till after the election? 
 
 Ans. That is what I said. 
 
 (The Stenographer reads the evidence contained on page thirty-six of 
 this day's proceedings). 
 
 Ques. Now, you say you hoard it on the streets a few days before? 
 
 Ans. I said 1 heard it on the streets, but I did not hear it from the 
 Solicitor General. 
 
 Ques. When was it you heard on the street that the contract was 
 signed? Ans. I could not tell you. 
 
 Ques. Well, as near as you can ? 
 
 ni i' ii_.u.mnL 
 
 -.^l^Hlim 
 
88 
 
 I 
 
 Ans. Might have been ii day or two before the election. It was 
 reported currently on the streets a week before the election that it was 
 signed. Some of them told uie so. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear it on the street a week before election that it 
 was signed? Ans. About a week before. 
 
 Ques. Then, how did you tell me that you first hoard of it after 
 election? Ans. I say that Mr. Pugsley did not tell me till then. 
 
 Ques. Then you did hoar of the L.eary contract being signed, a day 
 or two before the election, was not the first time you hoard that it was 
 actually signed the 17th day? Ans. I don't think so. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was not? 
 
 Ans. I will not. I would not swear positively that it was on the 
 17th I heard it. 
 
 Ques. You were very anxious Lcary should get th!.t contract? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and am yet. 
 
 Ques. You have taken a very active part to get it for Leary? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Has Leary authorized you in any way to ccimmunicate with 
 the Government, or any member of the Government in respect of it? 
 
 Ans. X(t. 
 
 Ques. The contract would run out in sixty days, would it not? 
 
 Ans. ^'os 
 
 Ques. Did you not apply to the Attorney General about it your- 
 self — to have it extended? Ans. I asked him on the street. 
 
 Ques. What did you ask him about? 
 
 Ans. I told him as the time called for sixty days with reference to 
 this would not they keep on and extend it longer, and he said it 
 would be a matter for the Government. 
 
 Ques. What else did he say? 
 
 Ans. That is about all I remember he said. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you to get Leary to write him a letter, or 
 words to that effect ? 
 
 Ans. Perhaps he may have said that he had better send a com- 
 munication, as was usual. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you to get Leary to write him a letter, or 
 that Leary had better write him a letter ? 
 
 Ans. 1 don't think anything was said about a letter. 
 
 Ques. Well, communication ? 
 
 Ans. Yei, perhaps it was. 
 
 aMii^ 
 
 mOm 
 
89 
 
 Ques. Did not he toll you to get Leary to write hiiTi a communi- 
 cation on it iisking him for it? 
 
 Ans. I think something of that kind was spoken of. 
 
 <^ue8. Don't you know there was ? 
 
 -Ans. I know I had spoken to him about getting the time extended. 
 
 'Ques. But you did ask him aI)out getting the time extended to 
 I^eary, and he told 3'ou that Leary had hotter write him a cominuni- 
 cation asking for an extension of time? Ans. Yes, about that. 
 
 (^Uies. Did you coujinunicate that to Leary? 
 
 • Ans. Y\ , I sent iiint a letter. 
 
 Ques. In eonscquente of that did he communicate with tlie Attor- 
 ney General ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. Did Leary write you that he had, or did you hear tiiat lie had ? 
 
 (Objected to. What l^eary wrote two months after election about 
 extension of time would not Ix; evidence ; nwr could content- of letter 
 from Leary to Kelly !)e given). 
 
 Ques. Did Leary write you that he had communicated with the 
 Attorney Genei-al asking for an extension of time? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Do I understand that this conversation you 
 had with Mr. Blair was in March? 
 
 Ans. Some time iii March. It was in March, I a{n [lositive of that. 
 
 Plon. Mr. Mitchell — I think question irrelevant. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — The charge is that J. D. Leary and his agents were 
 acting iu this matter. Now, there is some evidence already to show 
 that Mr. Kelly is the intermediary between Mr. Leary and the Gov- 
 ernment. Some evidence has been given as to that anterior to the 
 execution of the contract. Now, if it can be shown that subsequently 
 to the execution Kelly was acting for Leary and received instructions 
 and communications from him, it would be some additional evidence to 
 show that they were connected in this matter. In that view I think it 
 admissible. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — This charge refers to the making of an arrangement. 
 Would you think what took place two months afterwards between 
 Leary and Kell}' '.vould go to that point. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — If there was any evidence of agency already it 
 would go to confirm the agency and make it stronger, showing that 
 Kelly was I'ot acting merely in an isolated instance but long afterwards 
 ■and continuously. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I think it is not admissible. 
 
I' 
 
 . i 
 i 
 
 I 
 
 I 
 
 . i 
 
 ■I 
 
 
 w 
 
 , 
 
 m 
 
 
 B 
 
 ( 
 
 ■ 
 
 90 
 
 Mr. Hetheriiigton — My opinion is that we have very little to do a* 
 to communications between these jiontlemen since the contract was 
 made. What we have to do is to show what took place when the con- 
 tract was made. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — 1 think under the circunistsinces wo ought to know 
 the nature of that circumstance, if there was any. 11 it does not im- 
 plicate Mr. Blair, all right; if it does, wo ought to know it. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I think il is nbjoctionable on two or three grounds. 
 (Ruled out on division of Committee). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Was the time extended, or do you know? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you. 
 
 Ques, Did the Attorney General tell you it was or was not? 
 
 Ans. He did not tell me ; I don t think I ever spoke to him after- 
 wards about it. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure of it? Ans. I am pretty positive. 
 
 Ques. Did the Attorney General tell you that he had got word 
 from Leary? Ans. I don t think ho did. 
 
 Ques. Then you had not any communication since on that subject 
 with the Attorney General? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Simply what you did was to apply to him for an extension 
 of the time for Mr. Leary of the sixty days, and then you communi- 
 cated with ]Mr. Leary ? 
 
 Ans. One or two Aldermen and myself wore talking over the mat- 
 ter in the City Council, and they thought it would be well to see — I 
 think it was Alderman Baskin — to speak to the Attorney General 
 about extending the time so that the contract should not become void^ 
 
 Ques. You swear it was Alderman Baskin? Ans. I think it was^. 
 
 Ques. And who were the others ? 
 
 Ans. Alderman Stackhouse, I think. 
 
 Ques. Had Connor anything to do with it ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think he was present at that conversation. 
 
 Ques. Then, as an Alderman, you have not asked whether it was 
 extended or not ? Ans. I have not asked anything about it since. 
 
 Ques. You swear that you were doing that as an Alderman, and 
 yet you have not asked anything about it since ? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. You have not asked the Attorney General since whether the 
 time V .8 extended or not? Ans. I don't think I have. 
 
 Ques. When you made that application will you sweai' you were 
 authorized by the City of Saint John to make it ? 
 
 1:1 1 
 
 -jtll^KBtflti^. 
 
e to do a* 
 
 Ans. 
 
 tract was 
 
 matter. 
 
 1 the cou- 
 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ans. 
 
 t to know 
 
 Ques. 
 
 s not im- 
 
 itself? 
 
 grounds. 
 
 'ou know? 
 
 ot? 
 
 him uftcr.- 
 
 got word' 
 
 lat subject 
 
 extension 
 comniuni- 
 
 r the mat- 
 to SCO I 
 
 y General 
 )mo void. 
 Ilk it was. 
 
 10 r it was 
 t since, 
 rman, and 
 ■tainly. 
 lether the 
 
 you were 
 
 91 
 
 No, I did it personiilly, myself, from the interest 1 had in the 
 
 And the interest you took in the work ? 
 No, because the work was not prosecuted with. 
 Will you swear you wore not to have an interest in the work 
 Ans. Yes, positively. 
 Ques. You never hoard of such a thing at all ? Ans. No. 
 (^ues. Did you apply to anybody else in the Government to have 
 the time extended? Ans. I don't know that I did. 
 
 Ques. Did you get a letter from Lcary asking anything about the 
 extension of time? 
 
 Ans. Not any letter from Leary except the letter that I received at 
 the time I wrote him after my conversation with the Attorney General 
 telling him to write and ask from him the power of extending it, and 
 he said he had written. 
 
 (^ues. O, he said he had written to the Attorney General applying 
 for extension of the time? Ans. So he said. 
 
 Ques. Then you did not apply to any officer of the Government ex- 
 cept the Attorney General in that way, as you say, to extend the time 
 of Leary's contract? Ans. Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 
 
 Ques. Then, if I understand you rightly, is that all the communi- 
 cations you had with reference to that subject with the Government 
 since? Ans. That is all. 
 
 (^ues. Is the story that 1 see in the Telegraph to-day, that you 
 applied to the Government and ]Mr. Attorney General has agreed to 
 pay half of the engineer's charge, correct ? 
 Ans. That was a week ago. 
 
 Ques. Is that correct. Has the Attorney General promised you to 
 pay half the charges of the engineer examining those plans ? 
 
 Ans. He has told that not only to me but to Alderman Shaw and 
 a couple of other Aldermen as well. 
 Ques. When was this ? 
 
 I suppose two or three weeks ago at the opening of the session. 
 Are these the new plans you now speak of, or the old plans? 
 The new plans- — the amended plans and specifications. 
 (Mr, Wilson). Do I understand you to say that the Attor- 
 ney General has agreed on behalf of the Government to pay one-half 
 of the expenses of these new plans? 
 Ans. When this matter was under consideration the Attorney 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 I 
 
 ::T:^ismiis:::Sij,,i^s^ 
 
IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 V 
 
 // 
 
 *'■" C'Px 
 
 
 ^':''. ^0 
 
 LP 
 
 &»/ 
 
 / 
 
 Uj. 
 
 i/.. 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 '*- IIIIM IIIIM 
 " IIIIM mil 2.2 
 
 
 !l JO 
 
 12.0 
 
 1.8 
 
 lA III 1.6 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
m.< 
 
92 
 
 i I 
 
 ii ' 
 
 I i 
 
 i 
 
 HI I 
 
 
 i.i 
 
 General wrote to the Mayor sayiag that as they both were somewhat 
 comraitted with reference to the matter, he would like a joint engineer 
 to be appointed in connection with this, and they would bear their pro- 
 portional part of the expenses. 
 
 Ques. What was the engineer expected to do ? 
 
 Ans. Examine the plans and specifications, and see if they came 
 up to the communication that Mr. Leary sent to the Council, saying 
 that he would spend a million dollars on these works. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). This was some weeks ago ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and last week also ; he said so far as the changing of 
 the engineer was concerned, whatever the Committee deemed aiWis- 
 able, it was satisfactory. 
 
 Qups Then he told you, with others, that he would pay half? 
 
 Ans. Yes, the Government. 
 
 Ques. Were there others with you when he told you this a week 
 or two ago ? Ans. No, I think not. 
 
 Ques. You were alone ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Then he also told you that a few days ago? Ans. Yes. 
 When ? Aus. The second of April I think I was here. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 
 It is about a week ago ? 
 
 Yes. I want to explain that in the appointment of the 
 engineer it was on the amended plans and specifications as per resolu- 
 tion of the Council that they would refer this matter to a Committee to 
 accept the amended plans and specifications of Mr. Leary, and I was 
 one of that Committee. 
 
 Ques. You were one of that Committee ? Ans. Yes, and am yet. 
 
 Ques. That was since the recent election of Aldermen? 
 
 Aus. No, the new Aldermen don't come on till nuxt Tuesday. 
 
 Ques. Was it before or since the election ? 
 
 Aus. Before — I am speaking now of the engineer being appointed. 
 
 Ques. Was it since the election, or l)efore, that the Attorney 
 General told you ? 
 
 Ans. O, it was since; it was Tuesday or Wednesday of last week. 
 
 Ques. Did I understand you to say that you never saw Mr. Leary 
 in your place of business unless accompanied with public men ? 
 
 Ans. I think he was there twice at ray place. 
 
 Ques. When ? 
 
 Ans. The first time was in December, and the other and second 
 time was after the elections were over when he came to Saint John. 
 
 
 nHli.iM I — Milil 
 
93 
 
 le somewhat 
 tiut engineer 
 ar their pro- 
 
 if they came 
 uncil, saying 
 
 changing of 
 semed ai'vis- 
 
 .ay half? 
 
 J this a week 
 
 ^ns. Yes. 
 rtis here. 
 
 meut of the 
 s per resolu- 
 Cominittee to 
 ry, and I was 
 
 , and am yet. 
 
 I? 
 ^uesday. 
 
 ng appointed, 
 the Attorney 
 
 of last week, 
 w Mr. Leary 
 men ? 
 
 • and second 
 jaiut John. 
 
 Ques. How long after the elections were over ? 
 
 Aus. Perhaps a couple or three weeks, and wb°n he was there 1 
 think Mr. Pugsley's brother was with him and Mr. R. O. Stockton. 
 
 Ques. (jNIr. Pugsley). Is he a brother of Mr. A. A. btockton? 
 
 Ans. I presume so. Tho object they bad in coming to my place 
 was that these gentlemen were interested in what is called the hous 
 Wharf, and they were anxious that Leary should have a look over it to 
 see what a valuable property it was, and when they were down there- 
 they came up to my place because they had to pass in close proximity 
 to my house. That was the second time Leary was there. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Who was there with him when he came 
 over in December ? 
 
 Aus. He was introduced to me by Mr. Lockhart. 
 
 Ques. Did you talk abou*; docks ? 
 
 Aus. Mr. Lockhart was taking him around then to a number of 
 Aldermen. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). What other Aldermen were there ? 
 
 Aus. I think Alderman Nasc was present and I think Alderman 
 Chesley. I know Alderman Nase was called off his wagon on the side 
 of the street and the consequence was that the Mayor introduced Leary 
 to him as a man who had a proposition, and he was calling the Com- 
 mittee of the whole together to consider the proposition of Leary. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). That is the way he came to be at your 
 place ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and that afternoon I went down to the Council Board. 
 
 Ques. Well, now, you say that the Governmeat had before tlie 
 elections — INIr. Pugsley had told you that they were going to give 
 the contract to Leary ? 
 
 Aus. I think so. He was anxious to give it to him if ho was the 
 accepted one of the Council. 
 
 Ques. Well, Leary ''.s the accepted one ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then, sir, did you not understand that they wanted the 
 Government to give an additional subsidy beyond the $2500, and that 
 Leary, before he would go on with the works, must have the additional 
 subsidy ? 
 
 Ans. He said he could not go on with the work without it. 
 
 Ques. Did the Government tell you that if they gave the contract 
 they would undertake to give an additional subsidy. Did Pugsley 
 tell you that ? 
 
94 
 
 
 
 Aus. The Commiltee, when waiting upon the G Tnment, pressed 
 ^ipon them strongly to give an additional subsidy. 
 
 Que?. Well, I am not asking that now. I think you said before 
 that they were tiying to impress the importance of an additional sub- 
 sidy upon the Government. The Committee did press upon the Gov- 
 ernment the necessity of giving more subsidy or else Leary would not 
 do the work ? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you not press that upon Mr. Pugsley, too, in your con- 
 versations with him? 
 
 Ans. Well, no, not particularly, because I always had confidence 
 that he would insist in getting all in the interest of the port possible. 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell him that it was necessary to have additional 
 aid to have the contract carried out? 
 
 Ans. I don't think I did ; he knew as much about it as I did. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you never mentioned it ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think I ever pressed Mr. Pugsley with reference to it. 
 I think we had conversations relating to the matter, but never pressing 
 him to say that they must give it. 
 
 Ques. But did you not tell him that unless it was given — unless 
 more aid was given by the Government the work could not go on ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I have stated that to him; but not pressing it par- 
 ticularly. 
 
 Ques. You were very anxious that that should be done ? 
 
 Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. And you were anxious if they gave the contract to Leary that 
 the Government should succeed ? Ans. Not particularly on that ground. 
 
 Ques. If they gave the contract to Leary were you not anxious 
 that the Government should succeed? 
 
 Ans. I was anxious that the Government should succeed no matter 
 what came up. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that ? Ans. I will. 
 
 Ques. Did not you say in the presence of Mr. Stockton that if they 
 did not give the contract for the docks you would not support them ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor to any other iierson ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. In Mr. Connor's presence ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Or did not Connor say it in your presence — that if they 
 did not give the contract for the docks he would not support the 
 Gevernment ? 
 
 i' 
 
ent, pressed 
 
 I said before 
 ditioual sub- 
 ton the Gov- 
 ry would not 
 
 in your cou- 
 
 d confidence 
 ft possible. 
 ve additional 
 
 J I did. 
 
 ference to it. 
 ever pressing 
 
 veu — unless 
 )t go on ? 
 ising it par- 
 
 e? 
 
 to Leary that 
 
 1 that ground. 
 
 not anxious 
 
 ed no matter 
 
 n that if they 
 port them ? 
 
 that if they 
 support the 
 
 95 
 
 Ans. No, he did not express that opinion in my presence. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell me who represented Mr. Leary in the making 
 and getting of this contract ? 
 
 Ans. I have no knowledge personally, while I have heard it stated. 
 
 Ques. You have no personal knowledge as to who did ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You sent money up here to be given for the election funds? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you sent money up here, your partner says, that came 
 out of year and his funds ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You sent that money with instructions that it should not be 
 delivered until they heard from Saint John? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. Did not you send tiiat money by your partner with instruc- 
 tions not to deliver it to Mr. Barry until he heard from you in Saint 
 John ? 
 
 Mr. Pugsiey — I object to that mode of putting the question. I 
 think the proper mode would be to ask him what instructions, if any, 
 he gave in sending the money. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — 1 think it is a wrong way of putting the question, but 
 I don't think it makes much difference. 
 
 Mr. Pugsiey — I insist upon your ruling. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I think strictly the question is objectionab'e. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I think he should ask : What instructions did 
 you give Murphy with regard to that money ? 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — That looks to me like a fair way of putting the 
 question. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — What possible objection can there be to that ques- 
 tion if it gets at the fact ? 
 
 Mr. Wilson — 1 don't see very much objection to the way the ques- 
 tion is put ; I will allow it. 
 
 Witness — Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). He came up here on the 16th ; did you 
 give him instructions on the 17th to deliver it? Ans. I did, I think. 
 
 Ques. You did ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you send it to him by telephone or telegraph? 
 
 Ans. I think by telephone. 
 
 Ques. What did you tell him? 
 
 Ans. I told him to deliver the money over to Mr. Barry, because 
 that was the man I gave him instructions to give it to ; I told liim to 
 take that parcel and deliver it in the hands of Mr. Barry, but not until 
 such time as I told him to. 
 
 A 
 
nif 
 
 96 
 
 II: 
 
 i: 
 
 
 Qucji. What instructions did you give him the day you told him to. 
 deliver it? 
 
 Ans. Not to deliver the parcel till I let him know. I told him when- 
 1 got recouped for my money on the following day to pay over the 
 money to Barry. 
 
 Ques. Did you telephone him that you had been recouped ? 
 
 Ans. 1 told him to pay over the money. Xo, sir, I did not tell him 
 I had been recouped. I simply told him it was all right ; to pay the 
 money to Barry. 
 
 Ques. The message was : It is uU right, pay the money to Barry ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is the usual way I have of expressing it. I did not 
 tell him anything about the recouping at all. I simply told that to you. 
 
 Ques. Then, as I understand you, something happened or was done 
 that satisfied you to pay over the money, or to have the money paid., 
 over? Ans. I was collecting funds. 
 
 Ques. You will answer my question? 
 
 Ans. I will answer it just as it took place. 
 
 Ques. Did something happen which satisfied you to pay over tlie 
 money? Ans. Yes, I collected subscriptions. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — 1 object to the last part of the answer. It is not in 
 answer to my question. I am willing it should be put in as an explan- 
 ation from him. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — 1 want the answer left there. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — Certainly, we don't want the answer cut in two. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — 1 think Mr. Kelly has given two answers to the one 
 question. I don't know that it is raaiurial, but it ought not to be ac- 
 cepted as an answer to Mr. Hanington's question. 
 
 (On the casting vote ol Mr. Wilson it is decided that the answer 
 shall remain). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. lianington). Do you swear that between the afternoon 
 of tlie 16th and the afternoon of the 17th y^u collected the $1500 
 which you paid? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Who from ? Ans. Is it necessary for me to tell you. 
 
 Ques. Yes, I want to know. From whom did you receive the 
 money? (Objected to). 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I don't think it would have any bearing upon th-* 
 case unless he received it from J. D. Leary. It is an improper ques- 
 tion. If ho would ask : Did you receive any money from Mr. Leary 
 or any authorized agent, it would be well enough. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — I concur. 
 
 ^mBm 
 

 told him to. 
 
 d him when- 
 y over the 
 
 3d ? 
 
 not toll liim 
 to pay the 
 
 y to Bdiry ? 
 ;. I did not 
 
 that to you. 
 or waa done 
 
 money paid., 
 
 pay over the 
 
 It is not in 
 IS an explan- 
 
 ■ cut in two, 
 rs to the cue 
 not to bo ac- 
 
 t the answer 
 
 the ai'lernoon 
 .1 the $1500 
 
 you. 
 receive the 
 
 ring upon th<» 
 proper quos- 
 m Mr. Leary 
 
 97 
 
 Mr. Phinney — We are authorized to inquire into all the facts and 
 circumstances connected with the matter of the said charge, to find 
 exactly who this money came from, and who made it up. If Leary is. 
 not connected with it afterwards, it fails. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — The question "from whom did you veceive the 
 money ? " — surely that is a point for the Committee to know. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — It may be the bringing in of the* names of a lot of 
 people. But 1 will rule in favor of the question. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). From whom did you receive the money 
 between the night of the IGth and the 17th? 
 
 Ans. I received $1000 from Mr. Carvell : 1 received ?300 or $500 
 itOJ^ Mr. Connor, and some from Mr. Quinton — I think $200 from Mr. 
 Quinton, and there were other sums of ^20, and I put some in myself. 
 
 Ques. But this is of the $1500 ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, but it was a general fund, because it was a kind of 
 general money for various purposes. 
 
 Ques. What time did you telephone the message up ? 
 
 Ans. About noon time. 
 
 Ques. Was it not the afternoon. Wa.s it not one or two o'clock ? 
 
 Ans. Well, that is about noon time. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was not from two to three o'clock ? 
 
 Ans. I think not. 1 think it was shortly after one o'clock, to the 
 best of my knowledge and belief. 
 
 Ques. Which Mr. Carvell was this ? 
 
 Ans. Well, it was the candidate's brother. I did not receive it from 
 him personally. I told the clerk, and he gave me so much at one time 
 and so much another. 
 
 Ques. Have not these very notes that the money was raised on 
 gone to protest here, and have you not come up here to Fredericton 
 within the last fortnight to see about them ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, there are certain notes gone to protest, but they had 
 nothing to do in relation to this money now spoken of. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that the notes given to raise fihis election 
 money in Saint John out of which this S1500 or part of it came — that 
 they were not notes floated to be taken up if Leary went on with the 
 contract, and did not they go to dishonor about the end of the sixty 
 days from the date of the contract, and you came up here yourself to 
 see about them, or in relation to them ? 
 
 Ans. The notes had no connection whatever with the $1500. 
 
 Ques. Had they connection with the electi'^n fund ? (Objected to). 
 
 7 
 
98 
 
 h 
 I li 
 
 1 
 
 ^:i, 
 
 ii ■: 
 
 \ M 
 
 
 Ques. Was the $1500 paid out of an election fund ?' 
 
 Ana. No, they wanted this money to send to York, and the com- 
 tnitteo did not have it on hand at the time, and I said I would advance 
 the $1500 if I could collect the subscriptions to-morrow. It was for the 
 election in York, and the consequence was that I advanced the $1500 
 and I was to get the subscriptions, which I did that afternoon and next 
 day, and I had it at noon time next day, and I telephoned to Murphy 
 to pay the money over. 
 
 Ques. Then these notes that went to dishonor had no reference to 
 this special fund ? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. Were there not certain notes in connection with the election 
 fund, upon which money was raised, that went to dishonor at the bank 
 in Saint John some time in March that you knew about and was inter- 
 ested in, and did you not, while here, see parties in Fredericton respec- 
 ting them ? 
 
 Mr. Pugsley — It is proposed to ask the witness with regard to cer- 
 tain notes that were used for the election fund in Saint John. I think 
 that is objectionable on two grounds : First, that this money formed no 
 part of those notes, no part of the proceeds of those notes came to 
 Fredericton, and it is entirely irrelevant and immaterial to this inquiry. 
 It would also seem to be most unfair and improper that there should be 
 an investigation into matters connected with the election fund in Saint 
 John, with which Mr. Blair had nothing whatever to do, and which it 
 is not pretended to show that he was in any way connected with. The 
 total amount that came to York appears to be $1500 sent by Mr. Kelly 
 under the circumstances he has mentioned. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I say that I not only propose to do this, but I pro- 
 pose to show and to interrogate this witness that those notes were used 
 for election purposes in Saint John in connection with that, and that 
 those notes were used to replace or raise this fund, this money itself, 
 and to refund it to Mr. Kelly, and that Mr. Kelly's own name was upon 
 them and he came here to Fredericton to see about Leary's dock con- 
 tract and to see with reference to those notes being arranged. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — The charge is that Mr. Leary contributed cer- 
 tain moneys. I do not object t > Mr. Hanington asking Mr. Kelly if 
 any part of tb' $1500 came from Mr. Leary, but surely he has no right 
 to travel all ro .ad the country and investigate what took place in the 
 diflferent elections. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I wish to add to my question the words " Out of 
 which fund part of this $1500 was recouped.'' 
 
the cotQ- 
 Id advance 
 was for the 
 
 the 31500 
 Q and next 
 ;o Murphy 
 
 jfereiice to 
 
 36 election 
 ,t the bank 
 was inter- 
 ton respec- 
 
 ;ard to cer- 
 1. I think 
 formed no 
 8 came to 
 lis inquiry. 
 ) should be 
 d in Saint 
 d which it 
 kith. The 
 Mr. Kelly 
 
 but I pro- 
 were used 
 t, and that 
 )ney itself, 
 was upon 
 dock con- 
 
 buted cer- 
 r. Kelly if 
 is no right 
 ace in the 
 
 " Out ol 
 
 99 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I am not clear that it is admissible unless Leary and 
 Lis agents were connected with it in some way. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Another thing that has not been spoken of by any 
 member of the Committee which I think is important is, that when 
 documents such as notes are required to be put in evidence you have 
 got to have them here. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — That would be another branch. As to the con- 
 tents — I do not raise that point now. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington concur with Mr. Phinney and 
 the question is ruled out. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Haningtou). Was there not an election fund raised in 
 St. John which it was understood was to be recouped if Mr. Lea.ry got 
 the contract ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley objects on the ground that on the trial of this 
 charge against Mr. Blair it cannot be at all material to inquire what 
 understanding there may have been between any parties in St. John 
 and Mr. Leary, unless Mr. Blair was a party to that understanding or 
 can be connected. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I would like to ask one question before express- 
 ing an opinion : Had Mr. Blair anything to do with the raising of 
 election funds in St. John to your knowledge ? 
 
 Ans. I never heard Mr. Blair's name mentioned in connection with 
 it ; Mr. Blair had nothing to do with any moneys that I was connected 
 with in St. John good, bad or indifferent. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — Then I think the question is improper. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I could not consent to allow questions of this kind to 
 be asked. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — I concur. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — This question differs considerably from the last. The 
 dock matter is a public matter in which many people were interested, 
 and it appears that there was an election fund down there and the 
 question is : Was there not certain election funds raised in Saint John 
 which it was understood were to be recouped if Leary got the contract. 
 If that was the understanding, and Mr. Kelly was a party to that, and 
 Mr. Leary was to get the contract if certain election funds were to be 
 raised in Saint John, I think it is quite pertinent to the inquiry, when 
 the inquiry goes so far as to include " all matters and circumstances 
 connected with the matter of the said charge.'' 
 
 Mr. Atkinson — I think we ought to have the information. (Ruled 
 <out). 
 
 
 __d 
 
100 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). You swore a while ago, it I understood 
 you, that Mr. Blair had nothing to do whatever with any money that 
 you had anything to do with good, bad, or indifferent ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — That was not what he swore exactly. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did not you send up $1500 to help him in 
 the election, and it went to his own partner, and the latter knew it was 
 coming? Ans. Yes, for his own county, 
 
 Ques. And did you not telegraph up that it was coming, and tell 
 Mr. Murphy to bring it to Blair's partner? Ans. Yes, certainly. 
 
 Ques. And was that not to elect Mr. Blair ? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. And ilr. Wilson, Mr. Bellamy and Mr. Anderson? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And then you say he had notliing to do with it good, bad, or 
 indifferent ? 
 
 Ans. So far as Mr. Blair was concerned, he had nothing whatever to 
 do with it. It was the intention also to send SIOOO to you, because it 
 was understood you were going to support the (Jovernment. 
 
 Ques. Had you any communications with me or any one of my 
 friends, or by which 1 knew anything about that anything was to be 
 sent to Westmorland ? 
 
 Ans. That is the unfortunate part. It we had you would have had it. 
 
 Ques. It was to come to Westmorland to support the Government ? 
 
 Ans. To support you and the Killam-Hanington ticket. 
 
 Ques. Was that because I was suppoBting the Government. Did 
 you not say a little while ago that I seemed to be in support of the 
 Government ? Ans. Seemed to be friendly to the Government. 
 
 Ques. Well, no money ever was sent? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You considered about sending it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, a number of St. John friends thought about it. 
 
 Ques. It was to strengthen the Government, was it not? 
 
 Ans. The thing we had particularly in view was the stand you took 
 in connection with the Ritchie matter ; that you were entitled to the 
 consideration of our people, and I was willing to subscribe liberally to 
 your election. 
 
 Ques. But you did not do it ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You wanted to make Government supporters ? 
 
 Ans. If I could. 
 
 Ques. So that if they gave Leary the contract for ^7500 or $10,000* 
 more they could carry it in the House, was it not. You wanted them 
 
m 
 
 nderstood 
 loney that 
 
 3lp liim in 
 lew it was 
 
 :, ami tell 
 
 tinly. 
 
 nly. 
 
 )d, bad, or 
 
 latever to 
 because it 
 
 ne of my 
 was to be 
 
 five had it. 
 ernment ? 
 
 ent. Did 
 )rt of the 
 nt. 
 
 you took 
 ed to the 
 jerally to 
 
 r $io,ooa 
 
 dted them 
 
 strong enough in the House that if they gave Mr. Leary an Increased 
 grant, they could carry it ? 
 
 Ans. Leary's matter did not enter into my mind. It was simply the 
 cry that was raised in connection with the appointment in Saint John. 
 
 Ques. Perhaps you will be able to tell mo : Did the Solicitor Gen- 
 eral arrange with you for the sending ot this money up to Fredericton ? 
 Ans. The Solicitor General and myself and others talked it over. 
 Ques. Did the Solicitor General arrange with you to send this 
 money up to Fredericton ? 
 
 Ans. They had not the money to send at the time, and when they 
 spoke I said 1 could send my own money. 
 Ques. Then you did arrange with him to send it up? 
 Ans. Not particularly. 
 
 Ques. And with the understanding that it was to be recouped ? 
 Ans. Certainly ; next day. If I did not get the collections he would 
 not give the money. 
 Ques. It was to be recouped to you ? 
 
 Well, you did not suppose I would give $1500, did you ? 
 Do you remember what your partner swore last night ? 
 Yes. 
 You never told him anything about it? 
 Certainly not. 
 
 You wanted to keep it a secret from him ? 
 Yes, he is a man tha't don't bother in politics. 
 You knew from somebody that Barry had charge of the 
 funds here for election purposes ? Ans. I understood so. 
 Ques. Did not the Solicitor General tell you so? 
 Not particularly he ; I knew it from others. 
 
 Will you swear he did not speak to you of it? 
 Well, I don't know, but others did also. 
 Did not you understand t> at Mr. Barry had charge of the 
 Attorney General's funds for the Government ticket ? Ans. No. 
 Ques. Whose funds did you understand he had charge of? 
 Ans. All I thought was that as a friend of the Attorney General he 
 would put it where it would do the most good. 
 Ques. Did you not know he was his partner ? 
 How could I know? 
 Will you swear you did not know ? 
 I don't know yet whether they are or not. 
 You don't ? Ans. No, I don't. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 
102 
 
 k 
 
 Ques. Had you previous to that heard that they were partners ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. They were partners then as lar as you know ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know they were as far as my knowledge went. 
 
 Ques. Do I understand you to say to tliis Committee that on the 16th 
 or 17th of January last you did not know that Mr. Blair and Mr. Barry 
 were partners? Ans. I would not swear that I did. 
 
 Ques. You had hoard it often ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I have heard that they were partners, but I had no 
 knowledge that Mr. Barry was a partner of Mr. Bhir's any more than 
 that I have that you are a partner of Hanington, Hewson k Teed. 
 
 Ques. Well, you know that ".s a fact, don't you ? 
 
 Ans. I know there is such a concern. 
 
 Ques. Well, did you know there was such a concern as Blair & 
 Barry ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And when you use the word concern you mean partnership ? 
 
 Ans. No, it will apply generally. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that that $1500 was not raised by notes dis- 
 counted in tla bank .'' Ans. I swear positively not ohe cent of it. 
 
 Ques. 1 mean that you got back / 
 
 Ans. Yes, not one cenf ot the $1500 that I sent up here nor the 
 money that I got back in connection with it was raised on notes. 
 
 Ques. It was raised by these parties you spoke of, was it ? 
 
 Ans. As parts ot their subscriptions towards the election. 
 
 Ques. Did they subscribe more than this towards the election fund 
 in St. John? (Objected to). 
 
 Ques. Did'Carvoll and these gentlemen subscribe more than what 
 you have named towards the election fund ? (Objected to — immaterial). 
 
 Mr. Phinncy — I don't think the question is strictly within the scope 
 of the inquiry. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington concur. 
 Ruled ouf* 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did I understand you that the Solicitor 
 General did not tell you to whom the money was to bo sent ? 
 
 Ans. Well, ho was one of the persons in conversation at the time in 
 which we decided to help out the elections in W stmorland and also in 
 York, and that this money should be sent, and sent immediately, if it 
 was to do any good. 
 
 Ques. And you sent it to York and did not send it to Westmorland ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I understood you to say that as far as I am concerned I had 
 
103 
 
 nera ? 
 
 nt. 
 
 I theietU 
 
 Ir. Barry 
 
 I had no 
 lore than 
 eed. 
 
 3 Blair & 
 
 tneraliip ? 
 
 notes dis- 
 of it. 
 
 e nor the 
 es. 
 
 tion fund 
 
 han what 
 material), 
 the scope 
 II concur. 
 
 Solicitor 
 
 le time in 
 nd also in 
 tely, if it 
 
 naorland ? 
 
 Qed I bad 
 
 nothing to do with asking or soliciting about any money to be sent to 
 Westmr rland? 
 
 Ans. No, it was only because of the best intentions of the people in 
 our City towards you. 
 
 Ques. Where is Mr. Leary now ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. How long did he stay in Saint John when ho came on after 
 the election? Ans. 1 would not think over a day or two. 
 
 Ques. Whether the Government extended his time or not, you do 
 not know ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. What is the business of Mr. Carvell who contributed the 
 funds ? Ans. Iron merchant. 
 
 Ques. He was very anxious for the docks to go on ? 
 
 Ans. No, he was a candidate. 
 
 Ques. I thought you said he was a brother? 
 
 Ans. Well, W. B. Carvell being a candidate, his brother put up 
 subscriptions for him so that in case of protest they could not come 
 back on him. He was willing to nut up $1500 and did have no hesi- 
 tation in doing it. 
 
 Ques. Was that the candidate ? Ans. Yes, the candidate. 
 
 Ques. But his brother put it up for him ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Were tliey both in the iron bu3inet;8 ? Ans. Yea. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know that it was arranged that if Leary got these 
 'looks that he siiould get supplies of iron from Carvell? Ans. No I 
 'lon't uor they had no intention of that when they put up their money. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). If I understood you correctly you say that 
 tiie matter of the dry dock iu Saint John did not enter into the consider- 
 ation as far as sending money to York or Westmorland was concerned ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. I ratiier understood that it was intended to be inferred that 
 you had been influenced to support the Government because of matters 
 iu connection with this dry dock. Why was it you decided to support 
 the Government ? Ans. In the act taken in the appointment of the 
 Police Magistrate last year lliere was considerable feeling. I had been 
 working for the Conservative party for a number of years and when 
 this matter came up and the ticket was about to bo nominated I said if 
 they nominated a strictly Conservative ticket I was with them, but if 
 Stockton and Alward ^"ere on the ticket I would oppose them, and 
 when they were determined to nominate them I opposed them and then 
 I volunteered to support the Government in consequence of what they 
 had done in regard to Mr. Ritchie. 
 
104 
 
 (.-'■ 
 
 tt'fi 
 
 Qaes. You are a Roman Catholic I think, as is Mr. Ritchie ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). Then it was not on account of the dry 
 dock? 
 
 Ans. No, I had no interest, except a public interest in the dry dock, 
 at all. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). Was it not reported in the public press that 
 Mr. Hanington had declared himself as approving of the course of the 
 Government in appointing Mr. Ritchie ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is why our friendship was for him. 
 
 Ques. Was it or was it not because it was understood that Mr. 
 Hanington had taken that stand that it was thought desirable to send 
 money to Westmorland ? Ans. Yes, that was the very reason. 
 
 Ques. You stated that some time in December you were one of a 
 delegation appointed to wait on the Executive Council with reference 
 to assistance for the dock and harbor improvements in Saint John? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. T think a memorial was presented by the City Council at the 
 t me, was there not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. In waitiuj; upon the Government you acted as one of the 
 Aldermen on that delegation? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I think you said Mayor Lockhart was one of the delegates ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And what other Aldermen were there? 
 
 Ans. Aldermen Connor and Baskin, and 1 was under the impression 
 it was Alderman Lewis but I could not say positively. 
 
 Ques. Was Alderman Stackhouse along ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Leary was with the delegation at the time ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he was one of the delegation. 
 
 Ques. You stated to Mr. Hanington that the Attorney General at the 
 interview rather objected to the way you were pressing him for im- 
 mediate answer. I will ask you whether it was not stated in that con- 
 nection that there were two applications before the Council and that it 
 world be reasonable that the respective merits of the applications 
 should be considered, and that the Government should have a reasonable 
 time to decide ? 
 
 Ans. That was where the trouble came in. I claimed that the 
 Government should give the contract to the persons whom the City 
 Council recommended and urged upon tlie Attorney General at that 
 time to give it to that person. 
 
105 
 
 Ques. That was tue almost unanimous feeling of the City Council ai 
 tliat time ? Aiis. Yes. 
 
 Ques. That the contract should be given to the person they selected ? 
 
 Ans. Well, the vote stood 19 to 6. 
 
 Ques. You say that shortly afterwards I informed you that the Gov- 
 ■ernment had awarded the grant to Leary ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you whether you saw in the newspapers this letter 
 from the Provincial Secretary ? (showing letter in St. John Globe of 
 Janary 4th, 1890). Ans. Yes. 
 
 Hon Mr. Pugsley proposes that the Clerk shall read Jhe letter for the 
 information of the Committee. 
 
 Mr. Hauington objects. We are not here to try anything in connection 
 with the ex-Provincial Secretary ; the rulings have been to narrow it 
 down and rule out all kinds of things I could have proved, but if we are 
 going to show what the ex-Provincial Secretarj' did and said about it I 
 don't think it is very relevant ; still if he wants it and presses it all 
 well and good ; we will go into that inquiry too. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — The apparent object of the direct examination of 
 the witness was to show that at a certain time which he sought to fix 
 as about the day this money was sent to York County the contract in 
 respect of this dry dock was given to Mr Leary. Jtlr Kelly stated he 
 could not fix the time but he said I had informed him and he understood 
 very shortly after this delegation waited upon the Government that the 
 Government had decided to give it to Mr. Leary. Now, my object in 
 producing this is to show that in the public press on the 4th of January, 
 which would be 13 days before this time,there appeared a letter from 
 the Provincial Secretary stating that the Government had awarded the 
 contract to Mr. Leary and that he as Provincial Secretary was author- 
 ized by the Order in Council and prepared at any time to execute the 
 contract. That was in the letter addressed to Mayor Lockhart of St. 
 John on the 3rd of January. Now, you can see how material that is to 
 this inquiry. You see it is sought to be charged here that the Govern- 
 ment signed this contract on the 17th of January and they seek to as- 
 sociate with that the fact that money was sent to York on that day 
 and to show that that money was sent on that day by reason of the 
 fact that on that day the contract was signed. Surely it is 
 material for the Committee to be informed that fourteen days before 
 that the Provincial Secretary had informed Mayor Lockhart that 
 by virtue of tiie Order in Council the contract had been awarded to Leary 
 and he was prepared at any time to go through the formal work of sign- 
 
106 
 
 ing the contract. It is material to show that thi3 was in the public 
 press and Kelly saw it and was aware of what the determination of the 
 Government was. 
 
 Mr. Hanington— I object to 't as irrelevant; 1 don't object to the- 
 mode ot proof. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I think it is fairly within the scope ot the inquiry. 1 
 would be disposed to admit it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — As Mr. Hanington objects to it I will withdraw it. 
 
 Mr. Phinney objects to the Chairman getting his opinion and then 
 allowing the question to be withdrawn. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — I think it should be admitted. (The Committee 
 unanimously agree that the letter should be read). 
 
 The following letter was then read : 
 
 " Saixt John, January 3rd, 1890. 
 " W. A. LocKHART, Esq., Mayor of Saint John : 
 
 " Sir, — In answer to your inquiry regarding the Provincial subsidy for 
 dry dock and harbor improvements, I beg to inform you that by Order 
 in Council recently passed by the Government, 1 am authorized and 
 prepared at any time to enter into a contract in the name and on behalf 
 of the Province, securing the subsidy to Mr. Leary on the same terms 
 and conditions as agreed on by the City Council in ir.aking their grant, 
 " Your, «fec., 
 
 "David McLellan, Provincial Secretary."' 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). Now, Mr. Kelly, I want to ask you whether 
 you ever knew of there being any arrtingement or understanding of any 
 nature or kind directly or indirectly with Mr. Blair under wiiich this 
 subsidy was to be awarded to Mr. Leary in consideration of Mr. Leary 
 contributing to the Provincial ele';tions ? 
 
 Ans. Not one. I never know anything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Have you at any time in anything you have done in con- 
 nection with harbor and dock improvement matters in Saint John, been 
 acting as the agent of Mr. Leary ? 
 
 Ans. Never; just in the interests of t!ie city as alderman and 
 taking a prominent part in all affairs that transpires there. 
 
 Ques. Now, Mr Hanington asked you a question which seemed to 
 be somewhat ambiguous and I was not quite certain what you meant by 
 your answer. He asked "will you swear you did not tell them (tliat is 
 the members of the Government; you would not assist them in their 
 election unless they gave the contract to Mr. Leary ?" and the answer 
 
107 
 
 the publift 
 ion of the 
 
 ect to the- 
 
 iquiry. I 
 
 tijdraw it. 
 and then 
 
 Committee 
 
 ], 1890. 
 
 ibsidy lor 
 by Order 
 rhed and 
 on behall 
 me terms 
 eir grant. 
 
 etary."' 
 
 whetlier 
 ig of any 
 iiich this 
 Ir. Leary 
 
 in cun- 
 ihn, been 
 
 nan and 
 
 !euied to 
 aeant by 
 1 (that is 
 in their 
 I answer 
 
 is •' No." Did you mean you would not swear or that it did not take 
 place ? 
 
 Ans. I meant that I never stated that I would oppose the Gov- 
 ernment. As far as Leary w-is concerned it would not make the 
 slightest difference as to my supporting the Government. That is 
 what I meant. 
 
 Ques. But did you tell the Government that you would not assist 
 them unless they gave the contract to Leary? 
 
 Ans. No, I never told any member of the Government that that I 
 am aware of. 
 
 Qaes. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). If I understand you your support of 
 the Government was not contingent upon their assisting in the dry 
 dock at all? 
 
 Ans. My support of them was simply because of their appointment 
 of Mr. Ritchie, and on no other basis whatever. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). You have said in answer to Mr. Han- 
 ington that from a period shortly after the delegation met the Gover- 
 nor in Council, I always told you, whenever you spoke to mo on the 
 subject, that the contract would be given to Leary on the plans and 
 specifications being approved of That is if the City gave it ^ him 
 also? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Now, I have called your attention to a letter from the Pro- 
 vincial Secretary dated the .3rd of January : you say you saw that in 
 the press ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you whether after that time I ever intimated to 
 you that there would be any doubt about the contract going to Mr. 
 Leary if the city approved of his plans and specifications ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think you ever did. 
 
 Ques. Did any other member of the Government ever intimate any 
 doubt or hesitation on the subject ? Ans. Not any that I spoke to. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you, Mr. Kelly, whether I ever intimated to you 
 — either stated to you or intimated to you in anyway — that Mr. 
 Leary's getting the contract for this dock — this subsidy for tho dry 
 dock — was contingeut upon his making any contribution to the elec- 
 tion or anybody making any contribution to the elections? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You referred to the fact of Mr. Leary being at your place in 
 December and then again after the elections ; on each of those oc- 
 casions were there others with him? Ans, Always. 
 
108 
 
 
 ii: 
 
 1 
 
 i 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 1 
 
 
 M 
 
 
 1 
 
 ■1 
 
 1 
 
 4' 
 
 1 
 
 If. 
 
 On the first occasion there were R. 0. Stockton and my 
 brother? Ans. I think it was R. O. Steckton. 
 
 Ques. You are aware that Mr. A. A. and R. O. Stockton and my 
 brother and myself were interested in the Long Wharf property ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you understood that Leary had been looking at that 
 property ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Are not your works within two or three doors from the 
 entrance to the Long "Wharf from Main street ? 
 
 Ans. It is within a distance of about 140 feet, I think. 
 
 Quos. On the other occasion you say there were two Aldermen 
 present ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Were those the only two occasions when Mr. Leary called 
 on you ? Ans. Yes, in m}' place of business. 
 
 Ques. I suppose you have seen lately in print what purports to be 
 a copy of the contract with Mr. Leary, published in the press ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Is that the first time you ever saw the contract? 
 
 Ans. It is the first time I ever saw the contract. 
 
 Ques. Have you taken the trouble to read that contract: 
 
 Ans. I did, as it was in the paper. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you if, when you were in Fredericton a short time 
 ago, Mr. Stockton, a representative from the City of Saint John, did 
 not call your attention to that contract and point out to you how 
 stringent the provisions were as against Mr. Leary ? (Objected to 
 — Irrelevant. Not pressed). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did you not tell anybody that it was a 
 mistake to think that these finids came from Leary, that they came 
 from the Grand Trunk Railroad Company ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Or nothing like that V 
 
 Ans. No, because the man who gave you that information was a 
 fool. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not within the last fortnight say that 
 the funds that came were from the Grand Trunk Company or Hickson 
 or some such man ? 
 
 Ans. Certainly; I swear I never mentioned it or talked about it to 
 anybody. I know nothing about the Grand Trunk at all. 
 
 Ques. You say that on the 3rd of January there was a letter in the 
 press in which Mr. Secretary said he was authorized to execute the 
 
lod 
 
 I 
 
 was a 
 
 contract. Don't you know that Ihat was the cont act for the ^2500 
 only V 
 
 Ans. That was all the Government had the power of giving at all. 
 
 Quas. It was with reference to that, was it not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques, Now, sir, was not then this great discussion and pressure to 
 get the Government to agree to give more and make the contract what 
 it now is ? 
 
 Ans. No, because another company were making application and 
 wanted more than the $2500 and we claimed that they should give 
 Leary the same as they would give any other company or any person 
 the same as the Council would agree to. They had previously stated 
 their willingness to assist to the extent of $7500 for ten years, or 
 $10,000 if possible. 
 
 Ques. This was claimed after the letter of the Secretary's came out? 
 
 Ans. No, from the time of the delegation in December. It was 
 claimed right through, 
 
 Que«. Therefore, the letter on the 3rd of January that they would 
 sign the contract for $2500, was not satisfactory? 
 
 Ans. Certainly, because that was all they could legally give. 
 
 Ques. But could not they put into the agreement that the $2500 
 would not bind Leary to construct unless he got more. The contract 
 as given in the pi-ess provides that Leary should not be bound to carry 
 on those works unless a further subsidy is given? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley. (Objected to). I did not go into the contents 
 of the contract. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Is not this in the contract: "It is 
 understood and agreed that this contract is preliminary to a further 
 agreement with the said Leary, etc., etc., said contract being based on 
 his expectation of furr'ier aid from the Province, and unless further aid 
 is granted the contract may be terminated by the said Leary ? " Now, 
 you have told us that the contract mentioned in the letter of January 
 3rd was only for $2500. Did not you contend and discuss yourself 
 that Mr. Leary could not go on unless further aid was given and you 
 wanted a larger subsidy ? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley. (Objected to). He went fully into this on 
 direct examination. It rloes not arise out of cross-examination. What 
 difference can it make what discussions go on in the absence of Mr. 
 Blair? 
 
 Mr. Hanington — It arises out of cross-examiQation in this way. He 
 
no 
 
 
 m 
 
 produces a letter and puts it in, and that refers to a certain contract 
 which the Secretary is prepared to sign. Now I have a right to ascer- 
 tain whether that was a contract for $2500 only or a contract such as 
 he has signed ? This contract that is signed grants $2500 a year, and 
 says that unless ho gets further aid he can throw it up. Now, I have 
 a right to ask him if this contract now entered intc^ does not go beyond 
 the $2500. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — The contract speaks for itself. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — The objection that it is new matter is very technical. 
 If it is imp( rtant it should be inquired into even if it is new matter. 
 As to whether the contract speaks for itself or not, the question is 
 what construction Kelly put upon the contract. He represented these 
 parties before tae Government and was there in their interest. 
 
 Witness — I deny that. I went there in the interests of the City. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — Then what did he mean by the expression which he 
 said .\Ir, Blair in effect used that he wis taking the Government by 
 the throat ? 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — I say admit it. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I do not think it is fair to read frcm a contract and 
 ask the witness to put a certain construction on it. 
 
 Mr. Haniugton — I am not asking that. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I do not think it has any bearing on the 
 question at all. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I do not think it arises out of the cross-examination 
 at all, and secondly, should not be inquired into as this agreement 
 unless the original is here. (Ruled out. Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Mr. 
 Hetheringtou and Mr. Wilson concurring; Atkinson and Phinney 
 contra) . 
 
 Witness — Mr. Phinney in his remarks said I was here in the 
 interests of Mr. Leary. I did not say so. I say I simply acted in 
 the interests of the City and as an Alderman. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). I want to ask you, Mr. Kelly, did 
 you on your own behalf or as the -^gent ef J. D. Leary, or on his 
 (Leary's) behalf ever offer to Mr. Blair to contribute money to the 
 elections if he would give the contract to Leary, or if he would assist 
 in getting a further subsidy for Mr. Leary for more thau the $2500 ? 
 
 Ans. I did not. 
 
 Adjourned until 7.30 p. m. 
 
Ill 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 Saturday, April 12th, 1890. 
 
 'Committefc met at 7.30 p. m., pursuaut to adjournment. 
 
 Examination of John Kelly continued by Mr. Phinney. 
 
 Ques. I understood you to say that you took quite an interest iu 
 the securing of the contract for Mr. Leary, did not you? 
 
 Ans. Yea, or whoever gave the best ott'er to the city, and his of^er 
 being the best 
 
 Ques. His ort'er was accepted ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And after the acceptance of his offer you took quite an in- 
 terest in his securing the contract from the Government? 
 
 Ans. Well, us a delegate from the City I did. 
 
 Ques. You came up here and met the Government? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You rather inferred from that interview that the Attorney 
 General was not disposed to accede to your terms, or that he thought 
 you were trying to force him into the contract ? 
 
 Ana. Well, my object was that as another company had made ap' 
 plication for the same grant he should give the contract to the person 
 or persons whom the City had given it to, and in enforcing that upon 
 him he got a little angry, 
 
 Ques. Did ho use the expression that you were taking him by the 
 throat, or was that the inference you drew from his remarks ? 
 
 Ans. It was not exactly those words. 
 
 Ques. Can you give us the words ? Ans. I don't know that I can. 
 
 Ques. That would be the way in which you would put it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he was quite angry that we should force him to come to 
 a conclusion immediately. 
 
 Ques. So then the Solicitor General suggested lo you that you had 
 better leave the matter at rest awhile ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. What did he say after that ? 
 
 Ans. lie did not say anything to us that evening, but we talked it 
 over later. 
 
 Ques, Did not he suggest to you not to press the Attorney General 
 just then ? Ans. Not at that time. 
 
 Ques. Well, the Solicitor General said that evening not ^o press 
 the Attorney General? Ans. The Secretary, I think, did so, 
 
 Ques. Well, which was it? 
 
 Ans. I am not pasitive which. Perhaps it was Mr. Pugsley. 
 
 Ques. Listening to the remark you made that the Solicitor General 
 
112 
 
 fi 
 
 said not to press the Attorney General, which do you think it was- 
 now ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I know Mr. Pugsley had spoken to c^.e in reference to 
 it. I think it was the Solicitor General and also the ex-Provincial 
 Secretary . 
 
 Ques. Do I understand you that you did not know that the ooj- 
 tract was entered into prior to the elections? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know the concract was signed prior to the 
 election. 
 
 Ques. What do you mean 'jy that? 
 
 Ans. That they hp.d signed the contract. I knew they had ver- 
 bally agreed, but there was no document signed by the Government 
 that I was aware of. 
 
 Ques. When did you ascertain that the document was in existence? 
 
 Ans. I think the first I knew of it — I think not until some time 
 after the election. It was reported on the street before that, I think 
 I said, that the contract had been signed. 
 
 Ques. Have you not alre^ndy sworn to this — that you might have 
 heard it a day or two before the election? Did you not know 
 previous to the election that the contract was executed? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And still you took a deep interest in having the contract 
 executed ? 
 
 Ans. I simply took a deep interest that the Government was in- 
 tending to give it to Mr. Leary or the person the Council intended to 
 give it to. I never bothered about the contract being signed, because 
 I held that they would carry out the statements of the Provincial 
 Secretary and Solicitor General that the contract would be signed and 
 that they would carry out what they had stated publicly and privately. 
 
 Ques. You never ascertained whether it was signed or not until 
 after the election ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How long was it after the election that you ascertained it 
 was signed ? 
 
 Ans. Perhaps a long time after. It may have been 3 or may have 
 been 5 or 25 days. 
 
 Ques. Well, which was it, 3, 5, or 25 ? Aus. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. Then you did not take much interest in it ? 
 
 Ans. Because I knew as soon as it got through the Council and his 
 plana and specifications were accepted, I knew the Government would 
 be beund to carry out their promises. 
 
118 
 
 Ques. After the contract was sigued, Mr. Kelly, and sonae propoii- 
 tion was made for extending the time, you were made the means of 
 communication Avith Mr. Leary ? Ans. No. 
 Ques. Did you not write a letter to him ? 
 Ans. Yes, at my own suggestion. 
 
 Ques. Did not the Attorney General suggest to you to write to 
 him for the extension of the time ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I said in discussing the matter over with two or three 
 Aldermen — it was suggested, I think, by Alderman Baskin — I said 
 that we sbould have the extension of time from the Government, and 
 finally I spoke to the Attorney General und he said Mr. Leary might 
 write him, and of course I immediately wrote to Mr. Leary telling him 
 he had better apply for the extension of time. 
 
 Ques. Then you were the gentleman that had the communication 
 with Mr. Leary? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. You wer;' the one selected for that purpose? 
 No selection at all about it. 
 Did you volunteer to do it? Ans. Yes. 
 And you had no intimate acquaintance with Mr. Leary ? 
 No. 
 
 And do you say you had no conversation with Mr. Leary 
 about the contract ? 
 Ans. Only when other members of the Council were present. 
 You had none personally with him at all ? Ans. No. 
 You say you advanced this $1500 out of your own money? 
 Yes. 
 
 Why did you send it up in such a hurry to York ? Why 
 did you not wait till you collected it ? 
 Ans. Well, they wanted it in York it seems. 
 
 Who wanted it? Ans. For campaign purposes. 
 How did you know it? Ans. Well, it was suggested. 
 By whom ? Ans. By the Solicitor General aud others. 
 You were rather in a hurry in sending it up before it was 
 collected ? 
 
 Ans. Not at all. 
 thing. 
 Ques. Did you not send it up in a hurry? 
 Ans. I sent it up, certainly, almost immediately. 
 Ques. On the suggestivn of the Solicitor General? 
 8 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 It is not the first time I have done the same 
 
114 
 
 Ad8. Ycb, and other peraous. 
 
 Ques. And you despatched your partner oflf immediately? 
 
 Ads. I think so. 
 
 Qucs. And gave him no special instructions e-xcept to deliver it to 
 Mr. Barry? Ans. Yes ; tliat's all. 
 
 Ques. And await your message ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Ho was to await your collection of the money, was he? 
 
 Ans. Yes. He did not know what he was to wait for. 
 
 Ques. You did not rely upon your friends in Saint John contribut- 
 ing it, but you wanted to get the money actually in your hand.* before 
 you paid it over? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. And you actually had it in your hands before you paid it 
 over? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. How much did you collect? 
 
 Ans. $1(500 or $1700. 
 
 Ques. Then you collected more than you paid ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, but I had other uses for it. 
 
 Qucs. Carvell contributed $1,000 of that, Mr. Connor contributed 
 $300 and Mr. Quiuton $200 ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Qucs. And you .say you chipped in yourself? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I always have to put a little in. 
 
 Ques. Then you would have considerably more than you paid out ? 
 
 Ans. That was only so far as this County was concerned, but we 
 required it for other places in our own County. 
 
 Ques. What did you do with this $500 you did not send to West- 
 morland ? Ans. That went into the general fund in St. John. 
 
 Ques. Did you send any money to any other County? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did any go up to Kent ? 
 
 Ans. Not that I am aware of. 
 
 Ques. Any go to Northumberland ? 
 
 Ans. Not that I had anything to do with. 
 
 Ques. Were you the general treasurer of the fund? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You thought it was desirable to send some funds to West- 
 morland, did you? 
 
 Ans. We were anxious to assist our friend here. (Mr. HauiugtOQ) . 
 
 Ques. And the Government candidates that were runniDg ? 
 
 Ans. No, Mr. HaniDgton was the only man under consideratioa at 
 the time. .., 
 
113 
 
 Quea. Did you ever consult Mr. HaniDgton about it ? 
 
 Ans. Not a thing. 
 
 Ques. It was entirely voluntary on your part ? Ans. Entirely. 
 
 Ques. You don't know whether he approved or disapproved of 
 your course ? 
 
 Ans. No. 1 don't think anybody ever said anything to Mr. 
 lianiugton about it until I spoke to him about it last week. 
 
 Ques. You say you have been a friend of the Conservative party 
 hilhcrt*)? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And the reason you support the Government ticket in St. 
 .John was beciiHse the Opposition had taken on Messrs. Stockton and 
 Alward? Ans. Well, I 
 
 Ques. Did not you say that if they had formed a straight Conser- 
 vative ticket you would have supported them ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And one reason you opposed the Opposition ticket was that 
 they took on Stockton and Alward ? 
 
 Ans. I said because the Conservatives were determined to put on 
 Stockton and Alward, and we decided to stand by Blair in consider- 
 ation ot his appointment of Ritchie. 
 
 Ques. And not because they took on Stockton and Alward as 
 Liberals ? 
 
 Ans. No, but because they had made themselves very objectionable 
 to the class of people I belong to, and I claimed the only way to resent 
 it was by opposition to them. 
 
 Ques. Has any portion of this money '^ver been recouped to you 
 and the other gentlemen that chipped it in? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. This money that was spent for the York election, I mean ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not look for it. These gentlemen were subscrib- 
 ing for the general fund. 
 
 Ques. This was a special fund, was it not? 
 
 Ans. No, it was for the general fund, and the money was taken 
 out and sent to York. 
 
 Ques. Did not you take it out of your own private fund ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Had you a general fund at all ? 
 
 Ans. What I sent was mine, but the recouping of it was from the 
 general fund. 
 
 Ques. Did you take it out of the general fund ? 
 
 Ans. The subseriptioDs were coming in, but not theo collected. ' 
 
116 
 
 (ft 
 
 Quea. You hnd no fuud at that time at all ? 
 
 AftB. Not at the time it was sent. 
 
 Ques. Then it was your own private funds you put in ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you afterwards were recouped ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you mean to tell rae that none of that nooney has been 
 recouped to these parties since ? Am. Certainly it has not. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hetherington). Did you ever consult Mr. Blair about 
 sending funds to assist him in his election in York? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How long has it been since you were in Fredoricton before 
 this time -^ have you been here within two or three weeks? 
 
 Ans. I was here on a Committee from the Council. 
 
 Ques. When was that? Ans. About the second of April. 
 
 Ques. Had you an interview then with Mr. George F. Gregory 
 with reference to this matter ? 
 
 Ans. O, I generally meet Mr. Gregory every time I am up here. 
 
 Ques. Did you have a conversation ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was talking to him in the hotel and out of the hotel. 
 
 Ques. Was he trying to draw out of you any matter or subject in 
 connection with this Leary dock business or Blair business ? 
 
 Ans. Well, he usually strikes me on that line. 
 
 Ques. Was he trying to draw from you anything on this matter ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he spoke of the amount of funds that came here. 
 
 Ques. Did he ask you how much money was sent ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he said about $12,000, and I said more than that, because 
 I thought if he was such a fool as to think that 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Have not the people of the City of St. 
 John and the City Council, acting on behalf of the people of St. John, 
 been anxious for some dock improvements ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And any move that you have made towards getting these 
 dock improvements has been the result of your anxiety for the ini- 
 provemeiit of the City as a citizen and as an Alderman ? 
 
 Ans. That is it and nothing else. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). You say that Mr. Gregory asked you up 
 here within two or three weeks as to the money that came up here from 
 St. John ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. He spoke of it as a considerable amount, $8000 or $10,000? 
 
 Ans. Yes ; $10,000 or $12,000. 
 
 Ques. He said that he had heard so J 
 
117 
 
 Ans. 
 to ine. 
 Quea. 
 Quos. 
 Ana. 
 
 I don't kDOW that he said he had heard ; he limply aaid that 
 
 Ana. No. 
 
 Did not ho aay that he had beard so ? 
 How did he aay ? 
 
 Well, he spoke of my partner bringing this money up here 
 and I aaid I did not know that he was here, or something to tl^at effect ; 
 and he walked over to the register in the Queon Hotel and showed me 
 his name, and I said I guessed he was. Ho asked me if that w{i«i his 
 signature, and I don't know what I said. I think I said yes. 
 
 Quos. How did the $8000 or $10,000 como in? 
 
 Ans. When ho spoke about the amount, I said something like : 
 " Oh, more than that," just laughing and walking off. 
 
 Ques. That is, that more than that came from St. John ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, that was in the puree). 
 
 Ques. You referred to the parcel that had come from St. John from 
 your partner ? 
 
 Ana. Yes, he had reference to that, I presumed. 
 
 Ques. Did not ho tell you that he had heard it went into Guuter's 
 safe? Ana. I don't think be did. 
 
 Quea. And you told him then you did not know your partner was 
 here? 
 
 Ana. Oh, I did not state to him directly at all, air. 
 
 Ques. Did not you say so just now — that you did not know he 
 ■was up here ? 
 
 Ans. He asked me in such a way that I knew very well he waa 
 here. 
 
 Quea. Did not y«u say just now that you aaid you did not know 
 your partner waa here and then he ahowed you the book ? 
 
 Ana. I said he came to me in that way and I told him 
 
 Ques. I ask you j Did you not tell Gregory that you did not know 
 your partner was here ? 
 
 Ana, I aaid I did not know he was here about that date ; I thought 
 rt was earlier than the 17th, 
 
 Quea. When be showed you the signature, did you not even aay 
 that was not your partner, or did you ? 
 
 Ans. No, he talked about what the initials were. 
 
 Ques. Did you not aay that those were not your partner's initials? 
 
 Ans. I said something about bis initials. I said his name was 
 M. G., and I thought it was signed G. M. 
 

 118 
 
 RE 
 
 i: 
 
 P:i 
 
 Ques. Are not the initials on the book M. G. ? 
 
 Ans. I am not positive. 
 
 Ques. But whatever it was, you told him that wasn't it. Yen sent 
 your partner up yourself with that money, did you not ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you told Mr. Gregory that the amount was larger than 
 $8000 or $10,000 ? Ans. I said it in a joking way. 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell him that it was a mistake, that it had no 
 connection with the Leary dock, but came in connection with another 
 compau}' ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then, if I understand you Avhen you told him that you knew 
 vou were telliufj him an untruth? 
 
 Ans. Well, I was joking with the man. 
 
 Ques. Did you tell him the truth, or what was not the truth, and 
 you knew it ? (Objected to and ruled ©ut by ^Ir. Wilson, Mr. 
 Mitchell and Mr. Hctherington). 
 
 Ques. You have told the Solicitor General and also myself that the 
 Solicitor General and a number of vou agreed to arrange to send 
 money into York. Now, tell me who was there beside the Solicitor 
 General and yourself? (Objected to as not material. Allowed on 
 vote of Wilson, Atkinson and Phinney). 
 
 Ques. Who were there when the Solicitor General and you were 
 there ? Who were the several others besides you and the Solicitor 
 General that arranged to send this money up here? 
 
 Ans. I cannot just exactly remember who the parties were. 
 
 Ques. Tell us as near as you can ? Was Mr. Quinton there ? You 
 spoke of him furnishing money ? 
 
 Ans. No, none of the candidates were there. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Connor there ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Well, who were they ? How many were there ? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you. Mr. Pugsley and I were there, and 
 some others that I do not remember. 
 
 Ques. You have no recollection of who was with Mr. Pugsley — of 
 these several that were there ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. But they were the gentlemen that arranged with you for 
 sending money up here ? Ans. It was talked over. 
 
 Ques. It was arranged by you and Pugsley and the others that the 
 money should be sent ? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Pugsley and I m«rely talked it over. 
 
119 
 
 Ques. And it Avas arniijged atnong you that the funds should be 
 sent to York ? Ans. And also to Westmorland. 
 
 And you cannot recollect who were there? Ans. No. 
 Nor any of them ? Ans. Xo. 
 And the funds were sent that same day, were they? 
 Perhaps not till next day — either that day or the day follow- 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ones. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 (^uos. 
 
 (Jues. 
 
 Ans. 
 ing. 
 
 Ques. If I understand you rightly this money was recouped to you 
 out of the general fund they were subscribing for? 
 
 Ans. The subscriptions that were coming in wa>< for the general 
 fund. 
 
 You were recouped out of the general fund ? 
 I recouped myself out of the subscriptions as they came in. 
 You knew when you sent that money up here that Mr. 
 Carveli's people wore going to put $1500 into the fund ? 
 
 Ans. I knew they would put $1000 or $1500 in. 
 
 Ques. But you would not trust their word, or the whole of them 
 tor the §1500 until you actually had the money in your hand, and that 
 you swear, do you? 
 
 Ans. Certainly, because I wanted the money in my hand. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). Did each of those men pledge the amount 
 you say they gave? Ans. Yes; they had pledged to give so much. 
 
 rjues. You wo\ild tiot have sent the money at all unless they had 
 pledged it ? Ans. Xo. I woidd not have advanced it myself. 
 
 Ques. Hew lo.ig before you sent it did they pledge it? 
 
 Ans. Well, perhaps it was weeks before that some of them had said 
 they would give so nuich fwr the general fund. 
 
 Ques. IIow m.iny days or hours before you sent the $1500 had you 
 the $1500 promised or pledged? 
 
 Ans. Oh, there was twice $1500 pledged long before that. 
 
 Ques. But I mean this particular $1500 ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, it was out of the genera! subscriptions that I was to be 
 repaid. 
 
 Ques. You were perfectly sure that you would get the $1500 when 
 you sent it up? 
 
 Ans. No, otherwise I would not have told ray partner not to 
 deliver it until I had it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not just tell me that you would not have sent it at 
 all if you had not been sure ? 
 
f'i" 
 
 120 
 
 Ads. I felt sure of it because I had mjr own money until such times 
 as I had it recouped to me. 
 
 Ques. The money that you took out of the bank was your partner's 
 or your own ? Ans. Belonged to the concern. 
 Ques. It was part yours and part Mr. Murphy's ? 
 Yes, we are partners in everything we have. 
 How much did you subscribe yourself? 
 I think I paid about $200 into the show 
 
 perhaps a little 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 more. 
 
 Ques. You have said that you were perfectly sure that you would 
 get this money back when you sent it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then why did you instruct your partuer not to deliver it 
 until he heard from you ? 
 
 Ans. Because I was not going to pay it until I had the money in 
 my hand. I wanted to have the money in my hand before I delivered 
 it over. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phiuney). When you speak of the money being 
 pledged, do you mean that it was on the subscription list? 
 
 Ans. No, different parties had stated that they would give so much 
 money. I had stated myself, and a number of others, that they would 
 give so much money towards this election fund. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). You have been asked with regard to the 
 feeling in St. John with reference to this contract. I will ask you if 
 at that time not only the Council but the general public were not in 
 favor of giving the contract to the person selected by the City Coun- 
 cil? Was that not the almost unanimous feeling of the citizens ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and is now. 
 
 Ques. The uight that you saw the Government with the Mayor 
 and other members of the Committee, when you say that the Attorney 
 General rather complained that you were urging an answer that night, 
 I think that cither you, or some other Alderman, took the ground that 
 the Government should give an answer that uight as the City had 
 agreed? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). You insisted that the Government 
 should answer you right there on the spur of the moment ? 
 
 Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. And was that not what nettled the Attorney General ? 
 
 Ans. That is what caused the trouble, I think. 
 
 Ques. And we did not want to give you any definite answer with- 
 
121 
 
 «ut 
 
 considering 
 
 tlie matter alone ? 
 
 Ads. Yes, I suppose so. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). You hare stated that you and I 
 talked the matter over of sending money to York , and also the matter 
 of sending to Westmorland, was spoken of. I would ask you this; 
 Whether I gave you as one reason why 1 thought it would be necessary 
 that the friends should contribute something to York, that the Attorney 
 General was coming down to St, John to address a political meeting, 
 which would necessarily take him out of the County and be somewhat 
 of a disadvantage to him as far as York was concerned ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was advanced. 
 
 Ques. That was the reason I suggested to you, was it not ? 
 ■ Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you whether or not that was not the first occasion 
 on which I or anybody else ever suggested to you that any money 
 should be sent to York? Ans. That was the only time. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Hanington asked you about the conversation you had 
 with Mr. Gregory when Mr. Gregory saw j'ou and endeavored to get 
 information from you, were you aware that he had a protest pending 
 in York at the time ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know whether he had the protest ; I knew therp 
 was a protest pending. I pay very little attention to these protests 
 for I am not in accord with them. 
 
 Ques. He mentioned that some $10,000 or $12,000 had been sent? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And in making the reply you did, you were simply joking? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). When was it, again, that you met the 
 Government — in December? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I understood you to say that you were not extremely 
 anxious about the dock? Ans. Individually, you mean ? 
 
 Ques. Yes. 
 
 Ans. Well, no I was not extremely anxious, but I am anxious as a 
 citizen to see the works go on, because I am aware if any great works 
 go on there it will give employment and be a benefit to the entire 
 community. 
 
 Ques. If you were not very earnest in the matter, how came it that 
 you pressed the Attorney General so hard as to make him angry ? 
 
 Ques. I was on a delegation and iu the City's interest, and T would 
 press you the same. When I am on these important delegations it 
 
122 
 
 J-i 
 
 il:.' 
 
 does not make any difference. These gentlemen that know rae before 
 the different committees in the Legislature, know that I press for auy- 
 thing that I am on. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 John. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 When did you see Mr. Pugsley this time that you speak of? 
 Two or three days before the Attorney General came to St. 
 
 Well, the Attorney General came on Friday? Ans. Yes. 
 About what time did you see Mr. Pugsley, at this time you 
 had the conversation about the money — I mean what time in the 
 week and where was it? 
 
 Ans. I think it was iu the committee room, perhaps Wednesday or 
 Thursday. 
 
 Ques. Then the Solicitor General spoke to you either on Wednes- 
 day or Thursday ? 
 
 Ans. I think we talked about it on Wednesday, about the Attor- 
 ney General coming down there, and I think he was then considering 
 whether he should go to St. John or not because he was busy in York, 
 and he tinally agreed to come down on Friday, and Mr. Pugsley con- 
 sidered some money should be sent to York in consideration of the fact 
 t|)iat he was coming down, because the Opposition was claiming that he 
 was not going to give anything for docks. 
 
 Ques. You say that this money was sent to Mr. Barry on acccunt 
 of the Attorney General going to St. John to address the electors? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and to carry the County of York, if possible, for the 
 Government. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinuey). And carry the County ot York, if pos- 
 sible? Ans. Yes, or assist. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). What did you say the Opposition were 
 urging in St. John ? 
 
 Ans. They were claiming that the Attorney General had no iuteu- 
 tiou of giving any subsidies towards harbor improvements. 
 
 Ques. What do you mean by that when the $2500 was already given ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, but the additional subsidy they were talking about at 
 that time — to make it $7500 or $10,000 as Leary had asked for 
 when he was present on the delegatian and as the committee of the 
 Council had asked for. 
 
 Ques. Then you as one of the citizens of St. John wished the 
 Attorney General to come down for the purpose of declaring his policy 
 ID that regard? 
 
128 
 
 Ans. Not only on that but other things. He had never spoken iu 
 St. John and a number of us were anxious to have him and myself 
 among the rest. 
 
 Ques. But that was the main reason? Ans. Yes, the public works. 
 
 Ques. You say that was the main reason. "Were there other 
 reasons? 
 
 Ans. Well, now, the fact was that they were claiming that Lhe 
 Attorney General had no intention of treating St. John with respect ; 
 there was a general feeling in that way, and we were anxious to have 
 him make a declaration on that and some other matters that I have 
 forgotten. 
 
 Ques. You were anxious for a declaration on account of public 
 works. Were you not anxious that the matter of the dock should be 
 completed and the contract signed ? 
 
 Ans. No, I never asked him about the contract. 
 
 Ques. Have you not already sworn that your anxiety induced you 
 to press him so hard as to make him angry ? 
 
 Ans. That was loug before. 
 
 Ques. You were then not anxious, is it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I had a chance to speak to him on the delegation, but 
 this was a public meeting. 
 
 Ques. Were you at the meeting? 
 
 Ans. No, there was sickness in my family that night and I could 
 not get there. 
 
 James G. Bykne, Stoorn and Examined by Mr. Hanington: 
 
 Ques. You are in charge of the Western Union Telegraph Office of 
 this place ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Under subpoena from the Committee you were required to 
 produce messages and papers of the 16th and 17th of January? 
 
 Ans. I have brought them with me. 
 
 Ques. Now, I don't Avant to inquire anything about any telegrams 
 that have no reference to this matter, or to see any telegrams, but 
 Mr. Barry has sworn that he got a despatch from the Attorney Gen- 
 eral about the 16th or 17th, I think, of January, which he says he has 
 lost or burned himself. Would you kindly look over your despatches 
 of those dates ? • 
 
 Ans. Well, my instruc^'.ons from the Company are to protest 
 against producing them, and if it is insisted upon that the message re- 
 
124 
 
 telegram received is as much 
 in the Canterbury office, or 
 much admissible iu evidence 
 
 •quired should be specified to enable them to pick them out, as there 
 are many private telegrams here which they would uot care to have 
 inspected. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I don't want anyone to see any of the despatches 
 if they don't relate to the subject matter. Mr. Barry has said that he 
 received a despatch from Mr. Blair to send down a contract or paper. 
 
 Mr. Barry — I did not state positively the date of it nor that it was 
 from Mr. Blair; I did not pay much attention at the time. But if Mr. 
 Byrne opens the telegrams I will look for it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley, objected. Before a telegram can be put in evi- 
 dence the original telegram must be produced to show what was 
 actually sent. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I contend that the 
 the original as the one sent, that is 
 wherever it was sent from. One is as 
 as the other, but if, as the Solicitor General contends that is not so, 
 and you rule it out, then I will endeavor, through Mr. Byrne, to find 
 out where the despatch cfime from, and will ask for a subpoena to send 
 to Canterbury for the party who has the original. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinuey). Is it not the practice of the company to 
 destroy these telegrams at the end of certain intervals ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, six mouths. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — If the Committee rule that the original is 
 admissible I will be quite willing when it comes to treat it as 
 proved. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). Is not the copy you have a duplicate of the 
 document you delivered to Mr. Barry ? 
 
 Ans. It is a press copy or would be in the ordinary course. Once 
 in 50 times, perhaps, it would be written with a pen. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Are the copies delivered always the exact 
 counterpart of what are sent ? 
 
 Ans. Not always. We endeavor to have them as nearly as 
 possible the same, but fail sometimes. 
 
 Ques. You would not undertake to say if you delivered a copy of 
 « telegram it would be an exact copy of the one sent ? 
 
 Ans. No, but it should be. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — Would not the telegram received by Mr. Barry upon 
 which he acted be evidence, and. if so, would not a press copy of it be 
 receivable? 
 
 lii>iTlli II I f 
 
125 
 
 ^■T" 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — But would Mr. Barry be able to say that it 
 was a telegram received from Mr. Blair? 
 
 Mr. Phinney — No, but if Mr. Barry treated it as a genuiue docu- 
 ment I think the Committee would receive it, and if so a duplicate press 
 copy should be received. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I presume the object of putting in the telegram 
 is to make evidence against Mr. Blair. If so, it is proper that the 
 orignal should be produced here. I would not urge the objection if 
 any delay would be caused, but Mr. Byrne states that the original can 
 easily be got. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — The original would certainly be the best evidence, 
 but I don't think anything is to bo gained by this course. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I do not think the original is the best evidence. 
 Here is a telegram which Mr. Barry receives and upon which he acts, 
 and which if it had not been burned would be evidence and the only 
 evidence of the message he received. The Courts admit the messages 
 as received as originals if they are involved in the acts under con- 
 sideration. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — Would the Court accept the telegram as a 
 telegram sent by the party who purported to send it ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Yes, in connection with the circumstances they 
 would. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — Mr. Byrne could not swear that Mr. Blair ever 
 sent it, so that it would not be proof that Mr. Blair wrote the message. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — Yes, it weuld be prima facie proof, and, accord- 
 ing to the rule laid down in insurance cases, the other party would be 
 at liberty to prove that it was not genuine. I am not go'ng to consent 
 that it be sent here by mail, because I cannot put it in when it does 
 come here unless the man who sent it is here. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — You could prove the signature, could you net? 
 If the object was to explain Mr. Barry's action on the receipt of a 
 certain telegram, my learned friend's contention would be all right. 
 But this is tho investigation ©f a charge agamst Mr. Blair, and it is in 
 the hope of finding out something that will effect Mr. Blair that this 
 evidence is asked. Whether there is anything of importance in it or 
 not I do not know, but if so the proper thing to do is to produce the 
 original from the office at which it was sent. If it is not in ezistencfr 
 the copy of the received message could be put in eyidence. If a tele- 
 gram is produced from the sending office written by Mr. Blair, I will 
 
12C 
 
 |.\. v. 
 
 It 
 
 i' I! 
 
 ■ !■ 
 
 treat it just the same as if the gentleman came here and said ou such 
 and such a day Mr. Blair left that message here to be transmitted to 
 Fredericton. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I will not consent to any such thing. If they 
 are going to adopt that plan I will have the agent subpanaed to 
 produce all the telegrams sent by Mr. Blair. Mr. Byrne, you might 
 see if you have any telegrams from Mr. Blair to Mr. Barry on those 
 dates. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — One thing is quite clear, namely : that this Committee 
 has no power to compel Mr. Byrne to do anything. He says before he 
 is authorized to produce any despatches here, it must be specified in a 
 summons. 
 
 Mr. Iliinington — jNIr. Byrne is here as one of Her Majesty's subjects 
 and must produce any i)aper he has. I simply want to know, Mr. 
 Byrne, whether a despatch came from the country or where. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley objected. It is proposed to show what despatches were 
 received before it is shown that any were sent. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I can prove the receiving of the telegram. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — It must first be shown what telegrams were 
 sent and tlien the originals must be subpccnaed. Otherwise we would 
 be entering upon an inquiry that may lead to the consideration of 
 other telegrams with which we have nothing whatever to do. 
 
 .Mr. Wilson — I am not in a position to give a decision on this 
 point without some consideration. It certainly is evidence against 
 Mr. Blair if this telegram is produced and it is very diiferent from a 
 telegram sent to affect insurance or carry out a contract. It seems to 
 me the original ought to be proved, but I would not like to rule upon 
 it without having the opportunity of considering it. 
 
 At Mr. Hanington's request a subpa^na is directed to be issued to 
 Mr, Byrne to produce all the despatches received at the Fredericton 
 office during the week from 12th to 20th of January to or from Mr. Blair 
 and Mr. Barry ; aUo between Messrs Kelly and Murphy, if any, ou the 
 1 6th and 17th of January. 
 
 Hon DaTid McLellan being called ou to take the stand stated that 
 he had neglected to get permission of the Legislative Council to testify 
 before the Committee, which he was informed was necessary. He bad 
 beeD subpoenaed to appear Monday morning and thought he would 
 then be here. . . < , 
 
127 
 
 W. Stohy Hooper, Sworn and Examined by Mr. Hanington: 
 
 Quea. You are manngor of the C. P. R. Telegraph Company here? 
 
 Ans. Yes, their agent here. 
 
 Qucs. You have been subptrnaed to produce despatches l)etween 
 or of cortuin dates hero, have you brought them ? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 have not. 
 
 Ques. You are subpd'iiaed to produce them? Ans. Yea. 
 
 Qucs Why have you not i)roduced them? 
 
 Ans. Acting under orders from the Company at the head office. 
 
 Ques. Wlio instructed you not to produce them? 
 
 Ans. Exactly so. 
 ■ Ques. On the ground? 
 
 Ans. That all these things are confidential and piivilcL'^cd. 
 
 Mr. James a Vanwart is allowed to appear bol'ore the Comniittc on 
 behalf of the Canada Pacific Telegraph Company. He sttites : 
 
 On behalf of the Company I desire to say that they object {>.> pro- 
 ducing the papers under that subpoena for the simple reason that they 
 are asked to pi'oduce all the telegrams between certain dates. They 
 are the custodians of the telegrams, it is true, l)ut they are of a private 
 and confidential character, and may involve matters of a very private 
 nature and many interests, and the Compan}' think they are not subject 
 to inspection by this Committee. They have no desire to withhold 
 proper information, but they decline, and feel that they arc not called 
 upon to exhibit the telegrams sent to and from the Fredericton office 
 to this Committee. If they are asked to produce ceitain telegrams, 
 from whom and to whom, and the dates, they will consider what 
 course they will take with reference to them. But under that subptx'ua 
 they feel they ought not to be called upon to do so. The Company 
 think the Committee ought to know what telegrams they require, and 
 what information they Avant, and not send out a subpoiua which is 
 something in the nature of a search warrant or a fishing expedition to 
 find out what possibly may be there. Mr. Hooper is simply an agent. 
 He has no desire to shirk any responsibility or decline to produce any 
 papers, but as the custodian of those papers he is bound by the instruc- 
 tions of the Company and will act accordingly. If the Committee will 
 state what telegrams they require — the persons from whom and to 
 whom — enabliog the agent to see whether these telegrams are on file» 
 they will see what action thej will take with reference to it. , > 
 
128 
 
 Mr. Hanington — What I intended to do was only to have the 
 subpoena include the telegranas involved in the inquiry. Therefore, I 
 think there is some reason in what the Company say, that they ought 
 not to produce all the despatches. I want the record book of all the 
 despatches, but I never contemplated the production of all the 
 despatches themselves, but only those between Mr. Blair and Mr. 
 Barry, but I want the record book of all despatciies, from whom and to 
 whom and the date and hour received. It was not contemplated that 
 all these despatches should bo subject to the inspection of anybody, and 
 therefore, I think the contention they make is about right. 
 
 At Mr. Hanington's motion a subpcona is directed to be issued to the 
 Canada Pacific Telegraph Company, returnable Monday, to produce all 
 despatches between Mr. Blair and Mr. Barry, between the 12th and 20th 
 of January last and between Mr. Kelly and Mr. Murphy, if any, on the 
 16th and 17th of January last. 
 
 Committee adjourned until Monday, 14th inst., at 10 A. M. 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 April 14th, 1890. 
 
 The Committee met pursuant to adjournment at 10 a. m. 
 Present: Mr. Wilson, Chairman; Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Hethering- 
 ton, Mr. Phinney and Dr. Atkinson. 
 
 The Chairman called the attention of the Committee to the report of 
 the evidence of Mr. Murphy in the issue of the Gleaner of Saturday last, 
 as follows : 
 
 " Wilson was to deliver the money." 
 
 This was clearly erroneous and should be rectified. It was the wit- 
 ness who was to deliver the money, as the Committee was aware that 
 that was the evidence given. He would not have mentioned it were it 
 not that such a statement going abroad would give a reader the im- 
 pression that he (Wilson) had dealt with the money, when such was 
 not tfce fact. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley stated to the Committee that since the adjournment oa 
 Saturday last he had conferred with the Attorney General, who would 
 not delay Committee by waiting for original telegram, but was willing 
 that the copy should be received in evidence. (This is set out in Mr. 
 Byrne's evidence). He would also state that the Attorney General wa& 
 not ashamed or afraid of any telegram that passed between himself and 
 
129 
 
 Mr. Barry being received in evidence, and ho (Mr. Pugsley) would 
 therefore withdraw the objection he had made on the subject of the 
 telegrams being put in unless they were the originals, and he was quite 
 willing that copies oi telegrams should be treated in all respects as if 
 they were the originals. 
 
 J. G. Byrne Recalled, and Examined by Mr, Hanington : 
 
 Ques. I think you were sworn on Saturday ? Ans. I was. 
 
 Ques. Who is telegraph operator at Harvey ? 
 
 Ans. I have not yet learned, as I had no opportunity since I was 
 asked to do so. 
 
 Ques. Do you know who is the operator at Canterbury ? 
 
 Ans. I do not. I have not had time since Saturday night to learn, 
 but it could be easily ascertained at the Station by telephone. The 
 Station Agent, I am pretty sure, knows the names of those men, as they 
 are employed by the railway company. 
 
 Ques. You have the copies of the despatches referred to? 
 
 Ans. I have the messages specified. 
 
 Ques. The messages themselves? 
 
 Ans. The messages specified here? (Witness hands out a message). 
 
 Ques. Is that the only one ? 
 
 Ans. I am advised by my Counsel, Mr. Vanwart, not to answer that 
 question. 
 
 Ques. Let me see the one you have ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. (Witness hands message to Mr. Hanington). 
 
 Mr. Pugsley — I admit this is a copy of the telegram Mr. Barry says 
 he received, and which he says he destroyed. 
 
 Telegram read as follows : 
 
 " Harvey, York Co., 
 
 " January 15th. 
 " J. H. Barry. 
 
 " Among my letters, either at house or office, is a large letter contain- 
 ing draft contract between Government and Leary. Please send Soli- 
 citor General St. John morning mail. 
 
 " A. G, Blair." 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Chairman). You say that telegram was sent on the 
 15th? 
 
 Ans. It was quite late on the 15th, and was received on the morning 
 of the 16th. r .: 
 
 9 
 
130 
 
 Quo8. (Mr. Hanington). At what time did you close your office 
 hero on the 15th ? Ana. Not before 10 o'clock. 
 
 Q'T". It was brought too late for them to send and it came into your 
 office next morning .'* Ans. Yes, next morning. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). Is the hour marked ? Ans. I think it is. 
 
 Ques. Look at it, please, and tell me ? 
 
 Ans. This would be Western Union time, that is about 25 minutes 
 ahead of this time. It is hero 9.37 a. m., that is 9.12 local time when 
 received here on the 16th January last. 
 
 Witness stands aside. 
 
 John McGoldrich Called, Sioorn, and Examined by Air. Hanington : 
 
 Ques. You reside in St. John ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley said the time had now arrived when he ought to state to 
 the Committee his view as to the course that should be pursued. It 
 having been shewn that $1600 was received by Mr. Barry to assist in 
 the York elections, and that Kelly had sent same, being reimbursed by 
 supporters of the Government in St. John, and as Kelly denied it was 
 in consequence of any arrangement with or understanding with Leary, 
 evidence should be adduced to connect Mr. Blair with that, and he 
 objected to further evidence being gone into until that done. Both he 
 and the Attorney General were desirous of coming to the stand for 
 examination. 
 
 Mr. Hanington said he could not see what the learned Counsel meant. 
 He proposed to show facts and circumstancei> connected with the charge 
 and with the payment of the money, and whether it was not understood 
 that although the money had come as stated, yet that there was an 
 understanding that these persons were to be recouped if Leary got the 
 contract. The fact that Kelly had sworn to one set of circumstances, 
 did not preclude him from shewing others, which, he said, were in his 
 view, the real state ot iacts and circumstances. He had no objection to 
 t^e Solicitor or the Attorney coming on the stand, and was glad to hear 
 they were to do so. He was not present lor the purpose of prosecuting 
 any man but simply to get at the facts. 
 
 The Chairman thought that some evidence should be given connect- 
 ing Mr. Blair with the transaction before any further testimony was 
 given. 
 
 Messrs. Mitchell and Hetherington coincided in this view. 
 
 Mr. Phinney thought the investigation should proceed on the lines as 
 
131 
 
 Mr. HaDingtOD thought best, and should not be limited, as waa uow 
 sought to be done — to do so would be an injustice both to accuser and 
 accused. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson said he would like to hear the testimony of this witness, 
 to see what light he could throw upon the facta and circumstances con- 
 nected with the charge. 
 
 The examination then proceeded as follows : 
 
 Quos. You were in 8t. John at the time of the election, were you 
 not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You are an Alderman ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You took an active part in connection with getting the con- 
 tract for the docks ? Ans. In what way? 
 
 Ques. Any way ? 
 
 Ans. I voted in favor of the dcok at the Council. 
 
 Ques. Did you, beside voting for the dock, take any other active 
 part in it, or did you not ? Ans. Yes, I did. 
 
 Ques. Did you press upon the members of the Government the 
 necessity of having the contract entered into — first, were you a mem- 
 ber of the delegation to the Government ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you press upon the Government, or the members of the 
 Government, the necessity of having a contract entered into for the 
 dock ? Ana. With the Government — no. 
 
 Ques. With any member of the Government ? 
 
 Ans. Yea, I spoke to a few aupporters of the Government. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). The ministers ? 
 
 Ans. No, I never spoke to any of the ministers of the Government. 
 I asked a lew of the members — Mr. Quinton. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley — Do not give the conversation with Mr. Quinton. 
 
 Ques. You never spoke to any of the members of the Government ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Had you urged it upon the supporters of 
 the Government and the gentlemen on the Government ticket, or had 
 you said anything on the subject of the contract at all, or had they said 
 anything to you about it ? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember any member of the Government speaking 
 to me about it and I am positive I did not speak to any member of the 
 Government myself to induce them to give it. 
 
 Ques. Did you speak to either of the members of the Government 
 there on the subject of the dock ? Ans. No. 
 
 Qoea. Never did ? Ana. No. 
 
132 
 
 m; 
 
 Ques. Then you were not very anxious to have the docks were you ? 
 (Objected to — immaterial. Messrs. Mitchell and Hetherington spoke 
 against question being allowed, and Messrs. Phinney and Atkinson io 
 favor. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Were you anxious to have the docks contracted tor? (Ob- 
 jected to — same queston. Allowed). Ans. I w^as. 
 
 Ques. How did you say then a little while ago that you were not ? 
 
 Ans. I did not say so. 
 
 Ques. Yet you never spoke to any member of the Government on 
 the matter ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You supported the Government ticket? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And yet you never spoke to any one member of the Govern- 
 ment on the subject ? 
 
 Ans. Not the Government. If you mean members of the cabinet — 
 I never spuke to them. 
 
 Ques. I mean Mr. Pugsley or Mr. McLellan ? 
 
 Ans. Neither one of them. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember the day the contract came down there ? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 do not remember the day. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember the occasion of it coming there? 
 
 Ans. I read in the papers about it coming there. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear on the 17th January tliat the contract had come 
 down and was delivered ? An.". I read it in the papers. 
 
 Ques. I did not ask you about the papers, or reading it in the 
 papers ; if you answer my questions we will occupy less time ? 
 
 Ans. I think the first I heard of it was what was in the papers. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you did not hear on the 17th that the 
 contract was signed ? (Objected to — hearsay evidence. Allowed on 
 the ground that similar evidence had been previously given without 
 objection). Ans. I do not remember. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever see the contract? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you take any part in getting it ? 
 
 Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Ques. Were you informed that the contract was signed, by any 
 gentleman running on the Government ticket in St. John, and if so, when, 
 and by whom? (Objected to — irrelevant and immaterial — allowed. 
 
 Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Ques. Were you not informed by any gentleman on the Government 
 ticket in St. John that the Government were going to try to get from 
 the House of Assembly more tlian the ^2500? 
 
18$ 
 
 ^ere you? 
 :on spoke 
 tkinson in 
 
 lor? (Ob- 
 
 ere not? 
 
 rnment on 
 
 3. 
 
 e Govern- 
 cabinet — 
 
 there ? 
 
 i had come 
 it in the 
 
 9? 
 
 apers. 
 th that the 
 Ulowed on 
 3n without 
 
 d, by any 
 i' so, when, 
 — allowed. 
 
 Dvernment 
 get from 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think I heard vOne of the members of the Government 
 ticket say that they would get more than the $2500. 
 
 Ques. Which member said that ? 
 
 Ans. I think it was Mr. Quiutou said that. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you that he had the prumise of the Government 
 to do it ? 
 
 Ques. I do not know — he did not tell me he had the promise of the 
 Government — he simply said, in speaking one day I niet him on the 
 street, about the $2500, and 1 then asked him if he thought there was 
 any prospects for more, and he said there was a prospect, the Govern- 
 ment would increase the subsidy. He did not say how much more. 
 
 Ques. About how much more ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know ho said the amount. 
 
 Ques. About how much more ? (Objected to). 
 
 The Chairman asked Mr. Hanington if he would as Counsel for the 
 prosecution, undertake to connect Mr. Blair with the evidence now 
 sought to be given. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I do not know whether I can do it or not. I intend 
 to try but I cannot do it unless 1 have the right to examine witnesses, 
 and my answer is that under the general ruling against me on this 
 subject if that is carried out it will be impossible, probably, for me to 
 do it because I cannot get at the facts bearing on the case. (Question 
 allowed). 
 
 Ans. I do not remember him stating any amount at the time how 
 much more it would be. I asked him as I said, on the street, if there 
 was any chance of more than the $2500, and he said he thought there 
 was. 
 
 Ques, And you do not remember any amount he named, do you ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Is your memory bad ? Ans. No, generally good. 
 
 Ques. You do not remember any amount being mentioned ? 
 
 Ans. No, no amount. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that Leary would not take the contract 
 unless there was an additional amount given, or do you know ? (Ob- 
 jected to — immaterial. Messrs. Mitchell and Hetherington said it was 
 inadmissible. Messrs. Phinney and Atkinson thought question should 
 be allowed. Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Did you see Mr. Leary when in town ? 
 
 Ans. I saw him, I think, about three times since he first came there 
 in reference to it. 
 
134 
 
 Ques. Did you talk over this business with him ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. How often ? 
 
 Ans. Once or twice — twice, once in the Council Chamber, and I 
 think, another time in the Committee Room. 
 
 Ques. Before the contract was signed? 
 
 Ans. Before the government contract was signed ? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? Ans. This was when he was first applying. 
 
 Ques. He did not tell you himself that he would not go on with the 
 work or the contract unless he got more ? (Objected to. Ruled out by 
 majority of Committee). 
 
 Ques. Do you know who managed the business for Leary in St. 
 John in connection with the contract, or do you not ? 
 
 Ans. I heard that Mr. Murray did, but I do not know myself, but I 
 heard Murray was agent for him. 
 
 Mr. Hanington asked for subpoenas for Geo. B. McEiel, the telegraph 
 operator at Harvey Station, and John Welsh, operator at Canterbury, 
 with all telegrams sent from the offices by Mr. Blair to Mr. Barry on 
 the 14th, 15tb, 16tb and 17th January ; also for Robert 0. Stockton. 
 
 Ques. You did not speak to Murray or Murray to you on the subject 
 or did you — on the subject of the contract ? 
 
 Ans. On the dock — Oh, yes, I talked with Murray lots of times 
 about it. 
 
 Ques. About the dock ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And the contract for the dock ? Ans. Yes, I think we did. 
 
 Ques. Murray was very anxious for Leary to have the contract 
 was he not ? (Objected to — ruled out. Hetherington, Phinney and 
 Mitchell concurring. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you he was Leary's agent? (Objected to, 
 ruled out as before). 
 
 Ques. You say you did talk to Murray about this contract? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell him you would do all you could to get the 
 contract for Leary ? (Objected to, ruled out per Hon. Mr. Mitchell, 
 Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Wilson). 
 
 Ques. Did you try to get the contract for Mr. Leary ? (Objected to). 
 
 Ans. I don't know as I did in any way. The only man I spoke to 
 about the contract a'., all was Mr. Quinton I think. 
 
 Ques. Was not that to try to get it for Leary? (Objected to. 
 Allowed per Mr, Phinney, Dr. Atkinson and Mr. Wilson). 
 
 Ans. No, I would not consider it. I don't remember mentioning 
 
135 
 
 Leary's name at the time at all Id the conversatioD I had with Quinton ; 
 that is in coDnection with the contract at the time I was speaking to 
 Quinton. 
 
 Ques, Was not it to try to get the contract for the docks that you 
 spoke to Quinton? (Objected to— Ruled out per Hon. Mr. Mitchell, 
 Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Phinney). 
 
 Ques. Did not Quinton tell you he would do all he could to get the 
 contract lor the docks? (Objected to — Allowed). 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think he said he would do all he could to have a dock 
 built in Carleton. 
 
 Ques. Then the only contract that was then discussed for the docks 
 in Carleton ^vas Mr. Leary's, was it not. 1 mean in the city ? 
 
 Ans. 1 .,. 
 
 Ques. And, therefore, when he said that it had reference to a con* 
 tract with L-^ary for the docks in Carleton ? Ans. Oh, yes. 
 
 Ques. About how long before the election was that ? 
 
 Ans. 1 should think it was probably three or four weeks. 
 
 Ques. Had you only one conversation with him on that subject ? 
 Had you not a conversation with him on that subject less than three or 
 four weeks before the election, as near as you can tell us ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't remember having any particular conversation with 
 Quinton except that time ; that was about three or four weeks before 
 the election. 
 
 Ques. You then knew he was on the Government ticket, did you 
 not? 
 
 Ana. I knew he was a Government supporter. I don't think they 
 had chosen their ticket at that time. 
 
 Ques. You thought his influence was to be used with the Govern- 
 ment as a supporter ? Ans. I presumed it would be. 
 
 Ques. Did you know anything of the money coming up to York ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you not hear of the intention to send money up to York 
 in the election. (Objected. Ruled out per Phinney, Hetherington and 
 Mitchell). 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell Quinton you would like him to do all he 
 could ? Ans. No, I don't remember telling him that. 
 
 Ques. Did you give him to understand whether you wanted the 
 contract entered into for the docks, or did not ? (Objected to. Ruled 
 out per Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Wilson). 
 
 Ques, Tell me what you said to him — every word of the conver- 
 
136 
 
 sation ? (Objected to. Allowed per Dr. Atkiusou, Mr. Phinney and 
 Mr. Wilson). 
 
 Ques. Do you want me to give the conversation that took place be- 
 tween Quinton and I just as it occurred ? 
 
 Ques. Yes? 
 
 Ans. Well, I am willing to tell it as far as I know. I met him on 
 the street 3 or 4 weeks before the election, I think, and previous 
 to that Leary had been in St. John and in the Common Council 
 and Committee Room, had been seeking to get the City to give him" a 
 grant of $10,000 a year for a dry dock in Carleton. After looking into 
 the matter carefully at that time I thought a dry dock would be a very 
 good thing in St. John and was anxious as a citizen and an Alderraan 
 to have the dry dock built, and thought it would put a good deal of money 
 into the City. I had very little conversation with the members of 
 Parliament, but I happened to see Mr. Quinton. ' 
 
 Ques. But you voted for it in the Council .'' 
 
 Ans. Yes, providing the plans and specifications were all right. I 
 met Quinton on the street shortly after that, and in the conversation I 
 said : I understand that $2500 was about the amount to be given. I 
 asked him if he thought the Government would not give more than 
 $2500. He said in his opinion he thought they would, and we went on and 
 talked about the dock business, and how it should be done and all that 
 kind of thing, and I told him at the time that I thought if the Govern- 
 ment gave a larger grant than $2500 the dock would go on, but from 
 the best authority I knew Leary would not build for $2500. Quinton 
 said he thought there was a possibility of enlarging the grant, but did 
 not say to me how much the grant should be. I don't remember telling 
 him that I was anxious to do anything, but simply spoke to him as a 
 representative of the City that the dock would be a good thing. That 
 is the whole tenor of the conversation as far as I remember. 
 
 Ques. From that you gave him to understand that the dock should 
 go on ? Ans. Well, that is about all the conversation. 
 
 Ques. Did you give him to understand that you were anxious that 
 the contract should be given? (Objected to — Ruled out. Mr. Phinney 
 Mr. Hetherington, Mr. Mitchell concuring). 
 
 Mr. Hannington asks that subpoenas issue for the attendance of Mr. 
 Robertson of the Western Union Office, St. John, with all telegrams sent 
 to or received from the Attorney General from the 12th to the 20th of 
 January. 
 
 Subpoena ordered to issue. Adjourned till 2.30 P. M. 
 
137 
 
 Committee met at 2.45, and Mr. McGoldrick rusumes his testimony. 
 
 Ques. (]Mr. Hanington). You say that you never spoke to any mem- 
 t'or of the Government on the subject of docks or of Leary or of the 
 contract or of public works in connection with the dock at all. You 
 swear to that do you ? 
 
 Ans. No, I never spoke to any cabinet member. 
 
 Ques. You mean of the Government? 
 
 Ans. Yes, of the Local Government. 
 
 Ques. You never spoke to them on that subject at all? 
 
 Ans. No, I had no talk with them. 
 
 Ques. Did you contribute to any of the funds that came here, do you 
 know? (Objected to — Irrelevant). 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I think we have already inquired into that and we 
 have a right to pursue it. We want to know who made up this ^1500. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — I object to it. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — If you can connect Mr. Blair with it I would not 
 object to it, but as it stands at present I think it is objectionable. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — Similar questions have been asked and I don't see 
 why this should be shut out. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — We have already found out where the $1500 came from. 
 (Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Were you informed of Murphy coming up here? (Objected 
 to — Irrelevant. Ruled out as before). 
 
 Ques. Did you know whether it was arranged first that Kelly should 
 come here with the money ? Ans. No I did not. 
 
 Ques. Were you present when the matter was talked over of send- 
 ing the money here with Pugsley ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Were you present at the public meeting that night when the 
 Attorney General was there and that telegram was read from Mr. Leary ? 
 
 Ans. At the Mechanics Institute? 
 
 Ques. Yes? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Were you not informed that night that the contract was 
 signed that day ? (Objected to — Irrelevant. Ruled out per Hon. Mr. 
 Mitchell, Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Wilson). 
 
 Ques. I think you said you never saw the contract ? 
 
 Ans. I never saw it. 
 
 Ques. Nor any paper in connection with this business? Ans. No. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I have nothing more to ask. I will say that under 
 the ruling of Your Honor it is not ope . 'o me to pursue this inquiry in 
 •the direction I had intended — as to this gentleman's knowledge. 
 
138 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). It was stated here this morning that 
 •witnesses had refused to give him any information. Did you refuse to- 
 give him any information or tell him what you knew? 
 
 Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Ques. You were perfectly willing to tell him all you knew ? 
 
 Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I specially excepted him from that remark, 
 
 James 0. Stackhouse, Sworn, Examined by Mr. Hanington : 
 
 Ques. You reside in Carleton ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You knew of the negotiations going on about this contract ? 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). You are one of the Aldermen ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). And were then I suppose ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You took part in getting the contract Irom the City for Leary,. 
 did you not ? Ans. Yes, I voted for it in the Council. 
 
 Ques. Did you not take any other part in it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was interested in it as well as any other citizen ; I 
 thought it was for the benefit oi St. John and I went for it. 
 
 Ques. Then you can answer me the question whether you took part 
 in it? 
 
 Ans. I took part in it as an Alderman and a West Side member, and 
 as th^ dock was to be built on that side, I did take an active part in it, 
 and did all I could to get it there, that is honestly and fairly done. 
 
 Ques. Then you took a very active part in it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, so far as that went, 
 
 Ques. Did you speak to the members of tho Government about it ? 
 
 Ans. I think not ; I have no recollection of speaking to the members 
 of the Government. 
 
 Ques. Well, any member of the Government ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I spoke to Mr. Quinton about it. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). You have no recollection of speaking 
 to any member of the Government ? Ans. Not since a year ago. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). You spoke to Mr. Quinton about it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I met him on the street one day and I spoke to him about 
 it, and he said he was in favor of the dock being built. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever urge him to use his influence in that way ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You did speak to Mr, Quinton, and you did that about election. 
 
139 
 
 ig that 
 fuse to 
 
 times, did you ? Ans. No, it was before the election was aoDounced 
 at all ; before there was any talk of it. 
 
 Ques. Then you never spoke to Quinton or any other candidate on 
 the subject about the time of the election — say within three weeks of 
 the election ? 
 
 Ans. I might have spoken to Quinton after that, but not in any 
 way urging him towards the dock. 
 
 Ques. I am speaking on the subject of the dock or the contract 
 for the dock? 
 
 Ans. I did not speak to any member of the Government concerning 
 the dock at all. I don't remember any conversation at all. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say you were anxious that Leary should 
 get the contract? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. Well, did you say that to Quinton ? 
 
 Ans. I hardly think I did say it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say it to any man running the election ? 
 
 Ans. Not a member. 
 
 Ques. Well, I mean a candidate? 
 
 Ans. I had no conversation with any of them but Quinton, I thlnk^ 
 in the whole campaign, and those few words are all I ever said to him 
 as near as I can remember. 
 
 Ques. Did not you say that the work could not go on, or to that 
 effect, unless the Government gave more than $2500 ? 
 
 Ans. No, I never said any such a thing. 
 
 Ques. Well, you knew that was a fact, did you not ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Do you know who represented Leary in connection with get- 
 ting the contract ? 
 
 Ans. No. I would not know anything about it. 
 
 Ques. Why, who represented him before the City Council ? 
 
 Ans. He was there himself. 
 
 Ques. How long was this before the election ? 
 
 Ans . I think that was somewhere along the latter part of November. 
 
 Ques. When the city gave him the contract was about the latter 
 part of November? Ans. Yes, or the first of November. 
 
 Ques. Then you never had anything to do with anybody after that 
 in connection with it ? Ans. With what ? 
 
 Ques. With the decks or the contract either one ? 
 
 Ans. Oh yes, I have tried to work the thing up as far as I could to 
 help out St. John. 
 
\ uo 
 
 Ques. Then the city having given the contract, who did you try to 
 work it up with ? Ans. With the the members of the Council, 
 Ques. Yes, but they had given it already? 
 
 Yes, but there was a falling off after that. 
 
 There was a falling off? 
 
 With some of the members. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 (Hon. Mr, Pugsley). That was after the election? 
 
 No, before the election. 
 
 (Mr. Hanington). Then you tried to canvass it up as well as 
 you could ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you continued to do that until the contract was let by 
 the Government? 
 
 Ans. Well, $10,000 was granted by the City about the last of Novem- 
 ber I think, and then the next vote came up in the Council was about 
 some plans of another dock. 
 
 Ques. That is where the falling off came, is it — by the members of 
 the Council on these new plans that came up? 
 
 Ans. Well, the next canvass before the Board was whether the 
 plans should be accepted, 
 
 Ques. Or whether they should stick to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. No, that was not the question, 
 
 Ques. Was not the question whether you should take the new 
 plans or stick to Leary? Ans. No, not exactly that. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). There were two propositions before the Council 
 to build the dock ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Hon, Mr. Pugsley). Were there not three different proposals. 
 (Hon. Mr, Mitchell). What were the three proposals? 
 Mr. A. A, Stockton had one, Mr, Leary and Mr. Robertson, 
 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 I think, 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Which of the three did you advocate ? 
 
 (Mr, Hanington). 
 The Leary dock. 
 That was the Leary contract was it not? Ans. Yes. 
 Did you contribute to the election fund m St. John ? 
 No. 
 
 Did you know of any arrangement for contribution by any 
 members to a fund of $1500 sent to York? Ans. No, 
 
 Ques. You had nothing to do with any paper or anything connected 
 with the fund or anything of that kind ? 
 Ans. No, nothing to do with it at all. 
 
141 
 
 Ques. Directly or indirectly ? 
 
 Ans. No, nothing at all only what I heard on the street. 
 
 Ques. Did you know on the day the contract was signed that it 
 was signed — were you informed of the fact? 
 
 Ans. I have been trying to remenaber since I came up here, but I 
 cannot call to memory that I did know the day it was signed. 
 
 Ques. Were you at the meeting in the Institute? 
 
 Ans. Yes, but I did not know the day it was signed. 
 
 Ques. You had no conversation on the subject as I understand it 
 except with Quinton ? Ans. That is all ; just a few words. 
 
 Ques. You never saw or spoke to any member of the Government 
 or them to you on the subject of the Leary contract or dock? 
 
 Ans. Only alter the contract was signed I had a little conversation 
 with McLellan. 
 
 Ques. Before the election ? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. What did he tell you? Ans. Only that the dock was signed. 
 
 Ques. When was that — a day or two before the election ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know whether it was Friday or Saturday before the 
 election. I think Saturday. He stated to me it was signed. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you they were going to try and get an additional 
 subifidy for it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't remember whether he stated that or not, but it 
 was kind of understood that the Government would contribute some 
 more — about $7000 altogether. 
 
 Ques. Did McLellan tell you that then ? 
 
 Ans. He might have said so ; I don't remember clearly about that. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you that the members of the Government had 
 agreed to do it ? 
 
 Ans. 
 to do it. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 No, I never understood it in that way, that they had agreed 
 
 As members of the Government ? 
 
 No, I never understood there was any agreement about it. 
 Well, that it was understood that the Government would do 
 it or try to get the Legislature to do it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I think that was stated somewhere in the Institute that 
 the Government were willing if the House would allow it to grant 
 $7000. 
 
 Ques. But did not McLellan himself give you to understand that on 
 Friday or Saturday before the elections ? 
 
142 
 
 Ads. I wuuld uot be positive ; he might have, but I don't remem- 
 ber it. 
 
 Ques. I think you never saw the contract yourself? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did not McLellau tell you that if be was elected and the 
 Government were supported in the Province, he had no doubt they 
 would get up to $7000? 
 
 Ans. I don't think he said that to me. I cannot remember any 
 conversation of that kind. 
 
 Ques. What did he say ? 
 
 Ans. He merely said the contract had been signed ; that is about 
 all there was about it. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you about the clause in the contract? 
 
 Ans. No, never told me what was in it. He said the contract had 
 been signed by the Government with Leary for $2500. 
 
 Ques. That was on Saturday ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did not he tell you that they had agreed, if they could, to 
 give him more ? 
 
 Ans. Ne, he did not say anything about agreeing ; but he thought 
 they might give him more when the House met, that is all, because I 
 think be was very careful lest the Government should put themselves 
 into a fix before the people. 
 
 Ques. Well, you were a friend of bis in the election? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did he not give you to understand that it would depend on 
 whether the Government had a majority or not as to whether the ad- 
 ditional subsidy was given ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Had you anything to do with the election fund and its dis- 
 tribution in St. John for the Government ticket ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think I had. 
 
 Ques. Were you one of the Executive Committee ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques You did not know of this money being taken out of it and 
 sent to Fredericton? 
 
 Ans. I did not know anything about the fund whatever. 
 
 Ques. Well, that is what I meant by asking had you anything to 
 do with the distribution of it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I had nothing to do with the fund at all. 
 
 I mean with the distribution of the fund in St. John ? 
 No, I was not on the Executive Committee, and knew nothing 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 about it. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 You say you bad no conversation with any member of the 
 
143 
 
 Government on the subject of the dock or the Leary contract in auy 
 way at any time ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you know that Mr. Murray, ex-Consul, was acting for 
 Leary about this matter at all ? 
 
 Ans. Nu, I did not know that he had. 
 
 Ques. He had no communications with you on the subject ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). All that you did, I presume, you did in the 
 discharge of your duty as an Alderman ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and as a citizen. 
 
 Ques. As a citizen and an Alderman, you were of the opinion that 
 it was very much iu the public interest that these works should be car- 
 ried on ? 
 
 Ans. That was my opinion, and that is why I wished to see the 
 dock and improvements built. 
 
 Ques. You are a practical wharf builder, are you not ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I can do most anything from ship building down. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Had you any arrangement or under- 
 standing or personal interest in the contract or in the getting of it ? 
 
 Ans. Noue whatever. 
 
 Ques. There was no arrangement or understanding between you 
 and Leary or anybody that you should have any interest from it ? 
 
 Ans. None whatever. 
 
 Ques. Or any contract or works in it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I had no more interest in it than any citizen would have. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). I will ask you whether at the time the 
 feeling as far as you observed was not very widespread over the com- 
 munity that it would be in the public interest that this contract should 
 be accepted and the subsidy given to Mr. Leary. I mean at the 
 time the matter was pending before the Council ? 
 
 Ans. I don't hardly understand the question. 
 
 Ques. Was there not a very general feeling in the Council and out- 
 side the Council that it would be in the public interest that these works 
 should go on providing Mr. Leary's plans were satisfactory ? 
 
 Ans. Certainly, 19 out of 26 voted for it. 
 
 Ques. And the people outside ? 
 
 Ans. Were of the same opinion — the tame feeling. 
 
 Ques. (Reading letter from Hon. Mr. McLellan published in the 
 Olobe on January 4th). Do you remember whether you saw that 
 
144 
 
 letter when it came out ? Aiis. I saw it iu the pajjer when it came 
 out. The Mayor told me he hrul the letter aud I think he read it. 
 
 Ques. Before it went into the paper? Aus. I think so. 
 
 Ques. As !in Alderman, did you understand from that that the 
 contract had been signed, and that the subsidy had been awarded to 
 Lcary ? Ans. Not at that time. 
 
 Ques. From that time onward, did you not understand Leiiry had 
 the contract? 
 
 Aus. Well, I understood it was binding on the Government, and 
 that was what the Mayor understood at the time, because wo had dif- 
 ferent conversations at the time. The Mayor thought it was binding 
 on the Government, and they could not get over giving the subsidy. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Well, did you think it was binding? 
 
 Ans. I did ; I thwught they could not get over it. 
 
 Ques. You say from that time it was always understood that 
 Leary was to have this contract from the Government. Now, sir, don't 
 you know that between the 3rd of January and the 17th there was a 
 very strong feeling that the Government might not put it in a position 
 to be carried out — would not give any increased aid ? 
 
 Ans. No, I think it was understood by the members of the Coun- 
 cil, as far as I am concerned, that that was binding on the Govern- 
 ment, aud they could be compelled almost to give the subsidy. 
 
 Ques. Now, was not the reason that was understood — was it not 
 understood in the country that the Government might not do it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I never heard that they might not do it ; I always heard 
 it said they might give it. 
 
 Ques. Might give the increased subsidy 1 
 
 Ans. No, the S2500. 
 
 Ques. But you knew Leary would not complete the dock on that ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did not he represent that he had to have $10,000 from the 
 City, $10,000 from the Dominion and $10,000 from the Province for 
 twenty years ? 
 
 Ans. I never understood it iu that way at all — that he would not 
 go on if he did not get the $10,000 from the Local. 
 
 Ques. Well, if he did not get the increased subsidy ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, he expected to get a subsidy from the Dominion as well 
 as the Local. 
 
 Ques. Was it not understood that he would not build the dock 
 
145 
 
 unless be get an incrensod subsidy beside the City subsidy and 92500 
 from the Province ? Ans. I never understood it that way. 
 
 I^ues. Then you understood that he would build it fur those sums 
 and not any others ? 
 
 Ai.s. Oh, the Dominion Government was expected to give a subsidy. 
 
 Ques. With the City subsidy and $2500 from the Local Gevern- 
 ment, you thought be would Hniah those works ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, with the Dominion subsidy too. That was expected. 
 
 Ques. Was it not generally understood that Mr. Leary would not 
 go on with the works if he only got the city subsidy and $2500 from 
 the Provincial Government? 
 
 Ans. All that I can answer for is my own opinion. I am of the 
 opinion that Mr. Leary would go on with the dock. 
 
 Ques. With only the city grant and $2500 from the Local ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say for that, because he expected to get the 
 Dominion subsidy. 
 
 Ques. Vou say you can only give me your own opinion. You 
 gave Mr. Pugsley public opinion as to Avhat was binding on the Gov- 
 ernment, readily enough? 
 
 Ans. Because that was in writing. I said by the Mayor and the 
 members of the Council they were considered bound. 
 
 Ques. You said there was a general feeling? 
 
 Ans. Of the members of the Council, I said. 
 
 Ques. You, as a Councillor, were of the opinion that Leary would 
 go on with that dock upon getting the subsidy from the City, the 
 $2500 from the Province, and the $10,000 from the Dominion? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then, sir, did you not use your efforts to influence the Pro- 
 vincial Legislature to give him more ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you not influence Quinton to get more ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And did you not refer in your evidence to the advisability 
 of the Government giving an additional subsidy ? 
 
 Ans. I said I had heard in the Institute that the Government would 
 favor that by making it $7000. 
 
 Ques. And did you not use your influence to get the Government 
 to do it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you not with their supporters ? 
 
 Ans. I might have outside. 
 
 Ques. Well, I say outside? Ans. Yes, I may have. 
 10 
 
146 
 
 Ques. You did ? Aus. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You used your influence to get the Government supporters 
 io press for an additional subsidy upon the Government of this Pro- 
 vince ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not. All that I asked for was the $2500. That 
 ■was all I was after. That is all I knew the Government could ffive. 
 
 Ques. Did not you urge them if they possibly could to give more? 
 
 Ans. No, I never did. 
 
 Ques. Nothing on that subject ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then you never thought the Provincial Government ought to 
 give more than $2500 ? 
 
 Ans. I believed they ought to give more. 
 
 Ques. You believe that in the face of the fact that Leary would go 
 on with it although he got uo more ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I believe he would go on without it. 
 
 Ques. And tinish it? Ans. No doubt he would start and rinish it. 
 
 Ques. Although he would start and tinish it for the $2500, yet you 
 wanted the Province to give him more ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I believe he ought to have more. 
 
 Ques. If he would do it for less hoAv could you wish that the funds 
 of the Province should be taken beyond what is necessary to secure 
 the works? Ans. I thought they were not giving him enougb- 
 
 Ques. Do you tell me now you had no interest in the bu nness ? 
 
 Aus. I do. 
 
 Ques. And yet you advocate giving Mr. Leary more than would 
 secure the performance of the work? Ans. I did not advocate it. 
 
 Ques. Did you canvass for the Government in the electiou? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Were you anxious to see them supported? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I never like U se'> my own side beat. 
 
 Ques. Y"ou did all you could for their success? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phir.ncy). Do you say that you felt that Mr. Leary 
 was prepared to go on with the contract if all he got was $2500 from 
 the Local Government, including the other appropriations ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, with the other appropriations. 
 
 Ques. And tliat was all ho would expect? 
 
 Ans. Well, I thought he would go on with that with the expect- 
 ation of getting more at some future day. 
 
 Ques. Why should you think he would have an expectatiou of that? 
 
147 
 
 
 Ans. Well, the Goverunieut gave him to understand that if the 
 House woulJ give more, the Government would give more. 
 
 Ques. What members of the Government said that? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Blair in the Institute said that if the Legislature was in 
 liivor of it, he would make the subsidy larger. 
 
 Ques. On that account you used your intluenco to get the subsidy 
 larger? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you speak to Mr. Blair about it ? Ans. Never did. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know thai there is a stipulation in the contract 
 that ho is not bound to go on with it unless he gets a further amount 
 than the $2500? Aus. No, I never saw it. 
 
 Ques. Did you never read the contract? Ans. No, 1 never did. 
 
 Ques. (Reading the contract). 
 
 Ans. I did not know that there was an expectation of further aid 
 in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Is this the first intimation you have had that there was an 
 expectation of Mv. Lcary for further aid, and that his contract v.as 
 based upon that? 
 
 Ans. That is the first time I ever heard it was in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Did you never make an inquiry to find out on what basis the 
 contract was made ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know any way of finding it out. 
 Did you see it in the public press? 
 I don't recollect seeing it in the press. 
 Did you not understand that that was the basis of the con- 
 
 Ques, 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques 
 tract ? 
 
 Ans. No, I thought the basis of the contract was the same as the 
 Citv had made. 
 
 Ques. Do I understand you that the interest you took in this mat- 
 ter was solely in the discharge of your duties as a public man ? 
 
 Aus. And as a citizen. 
 
 Ques. Were you not a very warm supporter of the Government iu 
 Uie last election ? Ans. Certainly I was. 
 
 Ques. You knew there was an election fund in St. John ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I suppose so; every other election they always have a 
 fund. 
 
 Ques. Well, I don't mean as to general knowled<!,e, but did you 
 know yourself that there was a fund ? 
 
 Ans. I did not till after the election ; I did then. 
 
u» 
 
 Ques. Were you not particularly interested in the contributions to 
 that fund? 
 
 Ans. I was a little interested in it when we came to wind up the 
 affairs. 
 
 Ques. Do you know where the funds came from ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know where these funds came from ? 
 
 Ans. Do you mean who paid this money in ? 
 
 Ques. I want to know if you do not know where the Government 
 election fund for St. John came from, and who contributed it? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know where it came from, nor who contributed it. 
 
 Ques. Were you on the Executive Committee ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Who were the members of the Committee? 
 
 Ans. I don't know anything about any money matters at all> 
 where they came from. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Did not you say a while ago that you 
 had something to do abou<". it afterwards ? 
 
 Ans. After the election there were some few things that wanted 
 fixing up. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phiuney). How was the election fund raised in St. 
 John ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know ; I know nothing about matters of money ; 
 where it came from, or who gave it. 
 
 Ques. Who were the parties that had charge of it ? 
 
 Ans. I did not know that. 1 did not know any of the committees 
 nor anything about them. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). Was that statement you refev to as 
 having been made by Mr. Blair, made on the public platform ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, in the Institute. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). Who did you get the money you used 
 from ? (Objected to — Irrelevant) . 
 
 Ques. You said you did not know where any part of the money 
 came from ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know who paid it, or who put the money into the 
 fund. 
 
 Ques. You know who you got the money you used from, 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley objects to going into details of St. John election. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — And there is no evidence that he used any. 
 
 Mr. Pbinney — I think it is q,uite proper to go into details of the St. 
 
149 
 
 John election fund in consequence of the connection it has with the 
 York election fund and the appropriation of this $1500. If this election 
 fund in St. John was made up by Leary and his friends, it would be an 
 ingredient in the inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — That is not the question. He asked him where he 
 got the money that he used. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — This inquiry is for the purpose of tracing back where 
 the money came from. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I think it is objectionable. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — I think it is an absurdity to inquire into any 
 man's private business. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — It is ruled out. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Haniugton). You said that after the election was over 
 you had something to do with it? You said you had to tix something 
 up after the election in connection with the election. Did you fix it 
 up with cash or a note ? (Objected to — Irrelevant) . 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I have a right to know, and I propose to inquire 
 now, if it was cash, how it was raised, and if by paper that went into 
 the bank whether it was not payable in about sixty days. 
 
 Mr. Phiuney — I think we will let that rest. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington and Mr. Mitchell concurring, the question is ruled 
 out. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Do you net know that to raise election 
 funds in St. John notes were floated, discounted in the bank at about 
 60 days, and that they had gone to dishonor, and Mr. Leary and his 
 Iriends had been asked to provide for them ? (Objected to) . 
 
 Ans. I know nothing about them. 
 
 Mr. Hanington applies for subpoenas for James C. Robertson and 
 Dr. F. E. Barker. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley submitted that the Committee would not be 
 justified in putting the Province to the expense of sending for witnesses 
 unless they were informed of facts which would convince them that 
 they had material evidence t ) give on the subject of this charge. Two 
 witnesses had been produced here to-day who had not given a tittle of 
 evidence to prove the charge. He thought the time had now come 
 when Mr. Blair should have the opportunity of going upon the stand, 
 
 Mr. Hnnington--I have not the slightest objection to his going on 
 the stand now. 
 
] 
 
 160 
 
 Andrew G, Blair Sworn, Examined by Hon. Mr, Pugsley: 
 
 Ques. You are Attorney General of the Province and leader of 
 the Government? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. I wish you would state the history of matters connected 
 with the dry dock and the building of the dry dock in St. John as far 
 as they have come under your notice as a member of the Government? 
 Ans. My first knowledge as a member of the Government in con- 
 nection with any application for the dock subsidy was when an appli- 
 catien came from a company organized in St. John. That was in the 
 year 1888. It was the company with which Mr. Hurd Peters was 
 connected. We had one or two delegations before the Government 
 on the subject and the delegates were Mr. Hurd Peters and Mr. A. A. 
 Stockton. The application was considered by the Government and 
 the conclusion which we arrived at was that while we were as a Gov- 
 ernment under obligations to give the $2500 a year by virtue of the 
 Act of 1882, since we had given the other subsidies to the companies 
 that were named in that Act, yet we ought to exercise a careful discre- 
 tion ia the giving of the contract. We ought to be asssured that the 
 company was able to carry the work on. We also entertained an 
 objection to the composition of the company which was then applying 
 for the contract, and I think we specified in the Order-in-Council some 
 of the objections which we entertained. The company as organized — 
 the Directors or Board of Management consisted I think of Mr. Peters 
 his son-in-law, Albert J. Gregory, Mr. E. O. Stockton, Mr. Thompson 
 and I think Dr. A. A. Stockton. Well, we felt that these gentlemen 
 were not going to putauy money into the enterprise, and that members 
 of the Legislature ought not to be mixed up in the enterprise at all, and 
 we intimated to the company that we would require them to reorganize 
 their board so as to take in a number of business men — shipping men 
 — men of means and capital in St. John, to show that there was some- 
 thing behind the enterprise before we would be justified in giving the 
 contract to them. An Order-in-Couucil was passed beai'ing date the 
 2l8t of December, 1885, following the application to which I have 
 referi'ed. This is the Order-in-Council : 
 
 ♦«IN COUNCIL, 21ST DECEMBER, 1888. 
 " Present: His Honor the Lieutenant Governor. 
 " The Committee of the Executive Council having read the petition 
 with the accompanying documents, submitted by the Saint John Dock 
 
151 
 
 Company, a company incorporated under an Act of Assembly of this 
 Province, praying that an order might pass by the Lieutenant Gover- 
 nor in Council for a contract to be entered into between the Government 
 and the Dock Company for the payment of the subsidy of $2500 for 
 twenty years, under the authority of the Act 45th Victoria, Cap. 34, 
 and having heard the President of the Company, Hnrd Peters, Esquire, 
 and others who addressed the Committee, it is observed that a large 
 immber of the Board of Directors ot the Company who appear to be 
 the only stockholders, are not gentlemen who are at all identiiied with 
 the shipping interest of the port of Saint John or of the Province, 
 and some of them, it is perceived, are at present members of the 
 Legislature. 
 
 " The Committee have no objections to make to the individuals com- 
 prising the Board of Directors, but there would be a larger degree of 
 coulidence on the part of the public in this particular enterprise, if, at 
 least, a considerable portion of those who are promoting it were in- 
 terested directly in the shipping of the port, and the bona fides of the 
 Government in entering into a contract for the payment of the subsidy 
 would be less open to criticism, if the members of the Legislature 
 were not connected with the governing Board, nor in fact had any 
 personal interest in urging upon the Government compliance with the 
 Company's application, 
 
 "It is therefore recommended that the company be advised that while 
 willing to aid to the extent of existing Legislative authority in the con- 
 struction of a Dry Dock in St. John, as a work having claims upon the 
 Government and as being likely to promote the busisKiss interest of 
 the port to a very large degree, it is not deemed advisable by the 
 connnitteo under the circrmstances to which reference has already been 
 made, that an order should pass at present for a contract as prayed for 
 by the petitioning company. 
 
 " Recommendation approved." 
 
 I believe that acting upon this suggestion there was some movement 
 made to reorganize the company, and that some two or three gentle- 
 men went out and two or three others came in, l)ut we had no further 
 pressing application if indeed any at all — I don't call to mind now that 
 any further application at all was made — but at all events no pressing 
 application was made to us for a subsidy and the matter seemed to 
 drop until the excitement arose in St, John following the election about 
 the commission. I will state very briefly what occurred in that con- 
 
152 
 
 uection. The excitement which occurred in St. John and which led 
 to the action of the Common Council, as far as the Government was 
 concerned culminated in an application made to us on behalf of the 
 Common Council and Mr. Leary. The Government was met by a 
 delegation composed of the Mayor aud members of the Common 
 Council. 
 
 Ques. (Exhibit). Is that the application the Council made ? 
 
 Ans. I think so ; the date (December 14th) corresponds with the 
 time the committee met us. They met a committee of the Executive 
 Council. The delegation consisted of the Mayor and Aldermen Peters, 
 Kelly, Baskin. 
 
 Ques. Was Alderman Peters up here? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). They said yesterday it was Lewis? 
 
 Ans. Well, I think it was Aid. Peters. I have a very distinct 
 recollection of him addressing us in the Council room. But if he says 
 he was not here of course I am in error. And Alderman Connor and 
 Mr. Leary. I had no private conversation with them at all, or with 
 any individual member of the committee or with Mr. Leary. These 
 gentlemei advanced all the reasons which occm-red to them in favor of 
 their application and they urged very strenuously that the Government 
 should then and there agree to enter into a contract, I felt myself 
 and so stated that I thought they were unduly pressing us, aud I 
 said we must have time to consider the matter. I said : It is all very 
 well that the Common Council of St. John have agreed to give a con- 
 tract but we cannot be entirely governed by that. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember as to whether when they tirst presented it 
 the application was in writing? 
 
 Ans. No, Mr. Leary "s application was not in writing. I then and 
 there said to Mr. Leary : We have not any formal application from 
 you nor memorial ; we don't know what you propose doing, and I think 
 you ought to state in writing what you are proposing to do for which 
 you ask us to enter into this contract. 
 
 Ques. Have you there a copy both of the memorial and the applica- 
 tion of the City Council ? Ans. Yes, here it is. 
 
 Ques. The memorial was put in writing in accordance with your 
 suggestion ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, in accordance with the suggestion I made at the time. 
 I was about to say that one or two of the Aldermen insisted that they 
 should get an answer that night to the effect that we would give them 
 
153 
 
 the $2500 a year. I felt that the detnand was very unreasonable, and 
 I said so. I said I thought they ought to recognize that the Govern- 
 ment must act upon its own discretion and judgment in the matter and 
 could not be guided entirely by the action of the City Council — that 
 while the Cabinet would be largel_y influenced by the action of the 
 Council, still they must consider the matter upon its merits as a Gov- 
 ernment, and we would do so at the earliest possible moment. I 
 assured them, and the other members of the Executive I think assured 
 them, that we would give the matter early consideration; we knew 
 that they were pressing and that the Common Council was very 
 anxious that something should be done at once, and we would not 
 waste any time about it — and neither we did. 
 
 Ques. What time was the delegation before the Council ? 
 
 Ans. It was in December. If I were to give my impressions it 
 would be that it was the 14th because this document which Mr. Leary 
 drew up while here bears that date. He left it with the Secretary or 
 some member of the Government before he went away. Wo proceeded 
 to the consideration of the matter at the earliest moment practicable, 
 and on the 30th of December we passed an order — or rather I should 
 say a minute of Council had been previously passed, and on that date 
 it was approved. The Council is ordinarily two or three days in 
 session and the minutes which have passed the Council are all approved 
 at the close of the session by the Governor, and therefore it would be 
 correct for me to say that we probably passed the order before the 
 30th, as far as the action of the committee of the Council was con- 
 cerned. 
 
 Ques. Was this order finally approved by the Governor on the 30th 
 of December? 
 
 Ans. It was — but I had forgotten to speak of another application. 
 Before we received an application from the Mayor and Common Council 
 of St. John and Mr. Leary, we had a delegation wait upon us from 
 another company or organization. The delegates were Messrs. James 
 C. Robertson, Mr. Skinner and a gentleman by the name of Van Slooten. 
 These gentlemen pressed us very strongly to entertain their application 
 favorably. They said they had either organized or were about organ- 
 izing a company for the purpose of constructing a dock, that they 
 would be able to satisfy us of their ability to construct it, and they 
 mentioned that Simpsons of New York, the dock builders, were the 
 jfjersons with whom they were in connection, or at all events upon 
 
154 
 
 whose plans they were proposing to work. This was before the 
 Common Council delegation waited upon us. We said to them that 
 we would consider their application and the matter was deferred and 
 that application came up at the same time the Leary or Common 
 Council application came up. And this is the Ordor-in-Council I was 
 going to read : 
 
 "IN COUNCIL, 30th DECEMBER, 1889. 
 
 "i resent: His Honor the Lieutenant Governor. 
 
 " The Committee of the Executive Council having had under con- 
 sideration the several applications of Jean Felix and others and of James 
 D. Leary asking for Provincial aid toward the construction of a dry 
 dock and the building of wharves and warehouses and furnishing ter- 
 minal facilities at the port of St. John, and likewise the memorial of 
 the City Council, stating that the Council had made an appropriation 
 often thousand dollars per year for twenty years, in aid of such dock 
 and other harbor improvements, and urging that the Province should 
 grant a similar amount ; 
 
 " The Committee recognize the great importance of the proposed 
 works, both to the City of St. John and the whole Province ; under 
 existing legislation, however, the Government is authorized to grant 
 aid toward the construction of a dry dock only to the extent of twenty- 
 five hundred dollars per annum for twenty years, which amount the 
 Committee are of opinion it would be iu the public interest to grant 
 provided the subsidy is based on a percentage of the cost of the works. 
 
 " The Committee, therefore, recommend that the Provincial .'' ecretary 
 be authorized to enter into a contract for the granting of Provincial 
 aid toward the construction of a dry dock in Carleton, in the City of 
 Saint John, to any person or company willing to construct such dry 
 dock (and provided sufficient evidence of his or their financial ability 
 to complete the same be furnished) to amount of one-half per cent, per 
 annum of the cost of such dock for a period of twenty years (the 
 amount of such subsidy not, however, to exceed the sum of twenty- 
 five hundred dollars per annum for such period of twenty years) and 
 provided that the plan and specifications of the proposed works be first 
 approved by the Gorernor-in-Council, 
 
 "And it is accordingly so ordered." 
 
155 
 
 We concluded to change the grant in that way making it one half 
 per centum per annum upon the total cost because we did not see our 
 way clear to having any guarantee that the cost of the work would be 
 $500,000 as Mr. Leary and these other gentlemen represented. They 
 had represented that they would expend that amount and in order to 
 make sure of that expenditure— of the expenditure heht}^ bo7ia Jide 
 made to that extent upon these works, we concluded to draw the pro- 
 posal in such a way as to make our subsidy one half per centum upon 
 the Avhole cost. If the cost did not amount to that their subsidy would 
 amount to a lesser sum, and we passed that minute on the 30th of 
 December. 
 
 Now, that closed my connection with the dock business except this : 
 A few days after the Council adjourned (I had reason to believe, from 
 ii letter which I have seen since, that it was the 3rd of January — my 
 own recollection was that it was within two or three days after the 
 closing of the session of the Council) 1 liad a telephone message from 
 Mr. McLellan, then Provincial Secretary, stating that the Common 
 Council were urging very strongly and strenuously, and there was a 
 strong public opinion in St. John insisting upon the Government enter- 
 ing at once upon a contract with Mr. Leary for the dock. I think he 
 mentioned to me that the Mayor was right then in his house at the 
 time he telephoned to me, and he wanted to know if I would give my 
 consent, as the Order-in-Council had passed, to a contract being signed 
 with Mr. Leary. I talked it over with him and gave my consent to his 
 executing the contract. 
 
 Ques. That was done by telephone? 
 
 Ans. By telephone and I am quite well assured that it was the 
 third of January. I said : I am going to be busy in the election ; you 
 can get the Solicitor General to draw it up ; he knows the views of his 
 colleagues in the Council. Of course even after the Orders-in-Couucil do 
 pass authorizing these things it is customary for the leader of the Govern- 
 ment to be spoken to before the papers are actually executed, and Mr. 
 McLellan in accordance with that usage asked me if I would give my 
 consent to his signing the contract, which I gave him then and there. 
 I heard not another syllable about the dock contract or dock business 
 as far as I can r*- ollect or recall in any way, until a letter came to me 
 from the Solicilv. General enclosing a draft of a contract between 
 Leary and the Government. The Solicitor General asked me if my 
 memory serves me right (I have lost the letter and cannot find it 
 
156 
 
 which accompanied the draft) to look over it and let him Icnow whether 
 its terms were satisfactory and return it to him. I received the letter in 
 the hurry of the election, uiy mind engrossed with everything else 
 but dock contracts, and I did not even open the draft or read it. 
 That with other correspondence that was accumulating was laid aside. 
 I went into the country and never thought of it again until I was remind- 
 ed of it by the Solicitor General at Harvey on the evening on which 1 
 was to speak there. IIow many days that contract remained — the 
 papers remained unattended to I could not say ; it would be wholly im- 
 possible for me to say ; it passed entirely out of my mintl until I was 
 reminded of it. And I will state to the Committee the circumstances 
 under which I was reminded of it. 
 
 I had been requested in the early part of the campaign by the 
 Provincial Secretary to address a meeting in the Institute in St. John 
 in connection with the election. 1 had consented to do so and a date 
 was named for a meeting that would be early, I think in the tirst week 
 or ten days of January. I remember the evening that was fixed for it 
 was a Wednesday evening — I think in the first week of January, or it 
 may have been in the second. But at all events it was Wednesday. 
 I made my own appointments for meetings so that I could be in St. 
 John on that evening, and on the Monday preceding the Wednesday I 
 received a message — I was then up in Keswick — to the eftect that 
 they had changed their arrangements ; that they would not have 
 the meeting on Wednesday night in St. John. This was from the 
 Secretary ; he had telegraphed to my oflSce, and they had telegraphed 
 it to me either in my son's name or that of Mr. Barry, or else the 
 Secretary's telegram had simply been repeated. It stated that they 
 had cancelled the arrangement and would fix a later evening. Of 
 course this threw me out somewhat ; I lost the evening practically, but 
 I heard nothing further about it until Sunday, which would be the 12th 
 of January ; the Sunday preceding the election was the 19th and this 
 Sunday would be the 12th. On Sunday, the I2th, the Secretary 
 telephoned me from St. John to know whether I could come down to 
 St. John on Fr'day evening and speak there on that evening. I re- 
 plied to him that I could not say ; that I doubted if I could ; I thought 
 probably my notices had gone out for meetings all through the week, 
 and if they had I could not cancel an engagement without perhaps 
 serious loss in the locality. However, I said t*> him by telephone : I 
 will inquire in the morning ; I will go to the office the first thing in the 
 
157 
 
 morning and find out whether my notices have been posted, and if the 
 notices for Friday evening have not gone out and I can go, I will 
 telephone yuu. I did not engage to telephone him if they had gone, 
 but only if they had not, because I thought he could make his own 
 arrangements ; he would assume that I could not go not getting word 
 that I could. I found next morning that my notices had gone out and 
 I was engaged to speak at McAdam Junction on Friday night, so that 
 I did not telephone him I could go and I supposed the matter was off 
 and they would not expect me. 
 
 The next thing I knew or heard the Solicitor General came up on 
 the train and met me at the Harvey Station. I had a meeting at 
 Manners-Sutton that night, and on Wednesday evening he came up on 
 the train a few minutes before I was going off to attend my meeting. 
 He told me his object in coming up. He said his object in coming up 
 was to prevail on ir«9, if possible, to go down and speak in the Insti- 
 tute on Friday night. He said they had announced the fact that I 
 intended to speak ; that they had published a notice of it, and not 
 being able to get any word from me, his friends there had urged that 
 he should come up and see me on the subject and try to prevail upon 
 me to go down. He said it would be a great disappointment to the 
 friends in St. John if I did not go down and they would probably 
 charge me, the notices having gone out and the meeting being an- 
 nounced, that I was afraid to go down. Well, I said I would be very 
 sorry that they should think that, but I did not see how I possibly 
 could do it ; I did not think it would be fair to my friends or the gentle- 
 men running with me if I should go down, and further than that I 
 would have to disappoint the people at McAdam Junction. Well, the 
 Solicitor General said, our friends are so very pressing upon the sub- 
 ject that they authorized me to say that if it would be any inducement 
 at all to you they would assist you in a contribution towards election 
 expenses. They said they would make up at least $1000 for us (this is 
 the whole story) and perhaps would be able to do a little better, but 
 they would do that if T would go. Well, I said, I appreciate their 
 kindness very much, but I cannot promise you to-night that I can do 
 so ; I will have to think it over, and I will have to try and see some of 
 my leading friends at McAdam Junction, as I am going off in the 
 morning early, and will let you know. That was the beat promise I 
 could make to him. I said I would try, if it could be accomplished. I 
 think that was all that took place on the subject in connection with the 
 
168 
 
 contribution. The Solicitor Gcuoral asked me if I hud got the draft 
 of the doclt contract from him ? I said I did not remember very dis- 
 tinctly ; had he sent it to me? He said he had, and I ?nid if you sent 
 it to me I am satisfied I must have got it, for I was homo on Sunday. 
 Did you send it l)cforo that? He said ho had. Well, I said, there is 
 only one thing 1 can do about it ; I can send u telegram to Mr. Barry 
 to look among my papers, either at home or in the otiico ; my corres- 
 pondence will bo either at one place or the other, and I could not say 
 which ; I don't know where 1 left it, but he will look it up and I will 
 have him return it to you. My own impression is that I did not send 
 the telegram to Mr. Barry, but authorized the Solicitor General to send 
 it in my name to Mr. Barry for that purpose. That is my present 
 recollection. I do not think I sent it myself or wrote it. But I told 
 him to describe the letter ; ho would know how to describe the let- 
 ter, so that Mr. Barry could identify it and to request him to send 
 it down, which he did. I went next morning to try and see some 
 of the folks at McAdam as I was going through, and the earliest 
 possible moment after that I wired to St. John to say that I was 
 going down. 
 
 Ques. That would be on Thursday? 
 
 Au8. Yes, that is my impression as near as I can recollect. Before 
 I wired I got some telegrams urging mo to come, saying that they were 
 making personal charges against me in St. John, as an additional 
 reason why I should go down. I went down to St. John on Friday. 
 
 Ques. Where were you when you got the telegrams urging you to 
 come down ? Aus. I think at Canterbury Station. 
 
 Ques. You vvent down by what train on Friday ? 
 
 Aus. The C. P. II. train reaching St. John in the afternoon. I 
 spoke at Canterbury Station on Thursday night ; 1 got there about noon 
 or one o'clock and spoke there that night, and Friday morning I Avent 
 right through by the C. P. R. and got to St. John about three o'clock 
 or something like that. 
 
 Now, I want to say that no man on behalf of Mr. Leary, no man 
 repies'mting Mr. Leary, directly or indirectly, no man in any way, 
 shape 01 fashion ever suggested to me that Mr. Leary was going to 
 make a contribution to the election, or would make any contribution 
 towards the election, or had made any contribution to the election, or 
 directly or indirectly in any way suggested to me that Mr. Leary or any 
 of his friends were paying any consideration towards the securing of 
 
159 
 
 this contract. No live mortal man directly or indirectly over hinted 
 such n thing to nio in this transaction from tho beginning of it to the end. 
 
 I want to say a word about the Leary telegram. The Loary telegram 
 was road at tho Institute while 1 was on tho platform that night. The 
 reading of it was the first knowledge tiiat I had that such a telegram 
 had been received ; when it was read by tho Provincial Secretary it 
 was then my first knowledge. He had not shown it to n)e ; 1 had not 
 seen it or heard of it. I sat there after resuming my seat; the Provin- 
 cial Secretary got up and read this telegram to the meeting, and I then 
 heard of it for tho first time. 
 
 Quos. I will ask you whether there was any understanding or ar- 
 rangement of any nature, kind or descrij)tion made with you or with 
 your knowledge under which Mr. Leary was to contribute to the 
 elections? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Or by any person acting on his behalf ? Ans. None : none. 
 
 Ques. Either directly or indirectly? 
 
 Ans. None. I heard of it for the first time when this thing was 
 mooied here since tho opening of this session. 
 
 Ques. And you say that your telephoning to the late Provincial 
 Secretary in answer to his message on the third of January, was in 
 accordance with the Order-in-Council which passed on tho 30th 
 of December ? 
 
 Ans. Entirely so. 1 assumed as anybody would assume that there 
 was a good deal of feeling in St, John ; a good deal of anxiety about 
 this, and that he would naturally desire to have the matter closed up 
 as soon as possible, and I put no obstacle In his way. I would sooner 
 as I explained to him, that the matter should stand for further consider- 
 ation, but he was pressing and naturally pressing and I gave my 
 consent. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell me about how long a time elapsed from tho time 
 Mr. JMcLellan telephoned to you on the 3rd of January, till you replied 
 to him saying you were willing? 
 
 Ans, Why, the conversation between us did not extend over 3 or 4 
 or 5 minutes. 1 was not five minutes at the telephone and he did not 
 leave it till I gave my consent, and unqualifiedly and unconditionally. 
 
 Ques. You state that on that Wednesday evening I informed you 
 that some friends in St. John talked of contributing something to assist 
 you in York ? 
 
 Ans. Well, what you said was that our friends had said that it it 
 would be any inducement for me to go out of my own county and go 
 
160 
 
 down to St. John they would appreciate it and they would be willing 
 to assist towards the expenses of my election and help me in the 
 election towards the election ^.ypenses to the extent of at least $1000. 
 and that they would do a little better if they could. 
 
 Ques, I will ask you whether that was the first intimation or the 
 first reason you had to expect that any assistance would be received 
 from outside ? 
 
 Ans. The very first. I had never asked it; I had never expressed 
 any wish for it : that was the first intimation that I had in any shape* 
 manner or form. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you whether or not in connection with that, Leary's 
 name was mentioned at all ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). Or the dock ? 
 
 Ans. No. There was no connection between the two in any shape 
 or form. It was never suggested to me, and I don't think anybody would 
 have suggested it to me. 
 
 Ques. It would not have been very safe? 
 
 Ans. Well, nobody ever did make a suggestion to me of the kind 
 since I have been in public life. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). You stated that you spoke in the 
 Institute on that Friday niglit ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you make any reference, do you remember, to the question 
 of the Government asking the Legislature to give iurther aid? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I did. I will tell you just how. I had been asked a 
 question, when I was addressing a meeting at Stanley, hy one of the 
 persons present as to what the Government proposed to do in the way 
 of giving further assistance towards the dock and harbor improvements 
 in saint John. I said this : That the Government would be willing — 
 I made a very guarded reply as I thought — I said that the Govern- 
 ment were only authorized to go to the extent of $2500 ; that they had 
 gone that far, and whether they would go any further or not depended 
 altogether upon whether the Province was in a position to do it, as we 
 thought, and if after consultation with our friends in the Legislature, 
 and conferring with the members, they felt disposed to do it. I spoke 
 in a plain and most unambiguous way ac to our taking counsel with the 
 members supporting us in the Legislature before I would commit 
 myself in any way to any definite pledge on <he subject, while anxious 
 to help the project forward. That statement was misreported and 
 misquoted, and 1 found that the Swi newspaper had been giving that 
 misreported version, the erroneous version of it, and that there was & 
 
161 
 
 very great deal of excitement in St. John over what was assumed was 
 my positive and unqualified refusal to countenance or favor any further 
 aid. That was the view they put forward. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). There wai an affidavit made to that efi"ect? 
 
 Ans. Yes. A declaration sent to the press that that was my state- 
 rnenc — a statutory declaration to the effect that I had said that 1 would 
 not give further aid. Well, I did not say so, and on Wednesday even- 
 ing when I was speaking at Harvey there was one gentleman present 
 who had been at my meeting in Stanley, the Rev. Mr. Mullen, a Pres- 
 byterian clergyman, and a political opponent of mine, very strongly so, 
 and I took occasion (he being present, without any previous communica- 
 tion with him at ail, but while T was on the platlorm and seeing him in 
 tlio audience) to call attention to the erroneous version of my remarks 
 at Stanley, which li.ul been put forward, and I read that version and I 
 asked the Rev. Mr. Mullen if ho would bo kind enough to say whether I 
 said that or this — and I wont on to repeat as nearly as I could from 
 memory what I said at Stanley, and Mr. Mullen was kind enough to get 
 up in his place and say in that meeting that he felt it was his duty 
 to say although not a friend of mine politically that what I had just 
 given was the true version, and the version sent to the newspapers in 
 St. John was not the true version, of what I had said. Mr. Mullen 
 stated that publicly at my meeting there. 
 
 When I went to St. John I had scarcely got into the liotol before I 
 began to be interviewed by leading citizens down there upon this very 
 subject. I cannot recall all their names at the present moment, but 
 quite a number dropping in one after another referred to this very 
 matter of the report which had gone abroad as to my action and atti- 
 tude toward further aid to St. John, and they asked ujo huw I felt about 
 it. Well, I said, gentlemen, T will make a statement from the platform 
 to-night just how T personally feel on the subject, and I trust it will be 
 satisfactory. I made that statement. 
 
 Ques. Outside of that public declaration, which yon uiado in St. 
 John, did you give any promise to any person or authorize anybody else to 
 iiiake any promise as to the Government giving further aid to the dock ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not. Most unhesitatingly I say not. No private in- 
 dividual received any assurance or any statement from me on the sub- 
 ject at all. No person representing Mr. Leary and no private individual 
 whatsoever. I stated to these gentlemen when they called upon me and 
 spoke to me on the subject in the hotel in St. John, that I would make 
 a public statement from the platform which I hoped would be satis- 
 11 
 
162 
 
 factory, and I made it. No, there is not a living mortal can say that I 
 ever did. 
 
 Ques. After Mr. Leary and the members of the Common Council 
 appeared before the Executive Council, did you see him subsequently 
 to that? Ans. Mr. Leary ? 
 
 Ques. Yes ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Where? 
 
 Ans. In the Queen hotel, and only once after he appeared before 
 the Council. I was in the Queen hotel on the Sunday evening fullow- 
 ing. I was there in the Secretary (Mr. McLellan's room). I was there 
 altogether a couple of hours and by the way that was the occasion wheu 
 one of the newspapers said there had been a Sunday carousal in the 
 Queen hotel. I went into the hotel in the evening alter dinner and was 
 not there a great while before all these gentlemen who had been before 
 the Council, every individual one of them, came in — Mr. Leary. the 
 Mayor, Aldermen Baskin, Kelly, Peters and Connor, and I don't know 
 whether there were any others or not, but those were the ones that I 
 remember. They all came in and came in together. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). On Sunday ? 
 
 Ans. On Sunday evening, and 1 liad not a word ot private conver- 
 sation with Mr. Leary on the subject of the dock at all. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). You had not ? 
 
 Ans. Not a word, nor with anybody else on the subject of the dock. 
 I don't recollect at this moment that the dock was mentioned. I could 
 not say that it was not for my memory is not perhaps to be depended 
 on to that extent, but if there was anything said it was said publicly in 
 the hearing of everybody — not a private syllable was uttered. 
 
 Ques. You say that from the 3rd day of January when you telephoned 
 to the late Provincial Secretary that you were willing the contract 
 should bo given, that the matter passed out ot your hands ? 
 
 Ans. I presumed that was the end of it. I presumed as far as the 
 Government were concerned that it was disposed of, and it passed out 
 of my mind. As I say I felt that my own election matters were of so 
 much importance that I did not go through and examine the draft of 
 the contract which you sent me. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever suggest to Mr. Leary or anyone on his behalf or 
 directly or indirectly authorize anyone to suggest that this contract 
 should be given on condition that he should contribute to the elections ? 
 
 Ans. No, never ; never. 
 
 Ques. You say you never knew of his contributing? 
 
163 
 
 Ads. Such a thought as that nev^r entered my mind. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever know whether or not he contribated anything. 
 Did you ever know of his contributing ? Ans. Not a cent. 
 
 Ques. From the third of January you say that so far as you were 
 ■concerned it was settled and understood that the contract should be 
 given to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. I took it for granted that all that remained was to have the 
 agreement formally prepared and signed as far as I was concerned. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. Hanington : 
 
 Ques. You say that there was an application made to your Govern- 
 ment at first that on giving this subsidy of $2500 a year that they 
 would construct the works. Well, was not that application also on this 
 basis that they would not ask nor expect any pay whatever until it was 
 tlioroughly completed to the satisfaction of the engineer? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was mentioned. 
 
 Ques. And that upon getting this $2500 a year for 20 years, I think 
 it is, then they would complete this work ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. They were ready to enter into a contract with the Govern- 
 ment for that purpose ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. At that time you declined to give it for the reason that you 
 have said ? Aus. Wo did not decline to give it. 
 
 Ques. I think you did then, did you not ? 
 
 Ans. We went into consideration of it at the earliest possible 
 moment and by the 30th of December 
 
 Ques. Oh, I am speaking of Stockton's application a year before ? 
 
 Ans. We talked the matter over in Council. The minute of Council 
 said that as the company did not represent the shipping interest — 
 
 Ques. You did not deem it expedient to make the grant until some 
 cliimge was made ? 
 
 Ans. We felt that the gentlemen on that board had no thought of 
 putting any money into the enterprise theraselvos, and unless they hal 
 gentlemen identified with them — men of capital — and we felt that 
 men interested in the shipping of the purt would be most likely to do 
 that, we suggested that they should try to interest them. 
 
 Ques. Did not the company in consequence of that change their 
 composition, and did not Mr. Howard Troop come into it. and some 
 others ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was given to understand either by Dr. Stockton or 
 
 
164 
 
 111 
 
 somebody else, but I do not think that it came inian official way, that 
 three of the members of that board were willing to retire and make way 
 for three of the business men of St. John. 
 
 Ques. Did not they do it ? 
 
 Ans. Whether they actually did it or not, I am not aware. 
 
 Ques. In other words you may have forgotten ? 
 
 Ans. I am inclined to think that 1 did not know, or had not any 
 ofBcial information of their having done so. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure of that ? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 am not sure, but I am inclined to think so. I can say 
 this, that no subsequent application came before the Government as 
 far as my memory serves me, at all from that company as reconstituted, 
 if it was reconstituted. 
 
 Ques. Then it got down to last fall, and it is in evidence that there 
 were two or three competitive bodies in this matter ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. The delegations came up here and they urged you very 
 strongly to agree with the contract to Mr. Leary ? 
 
 Ads. Well, some of the Common Councillors insisted that that very 
 night we should say then and there that wo would give the $2500 to 
 Leary. I thought it was putting a pistol at our heads and said so. 
 
 Qnes. The city had then agreed to give the contract to Leary for 
 $10,000 a year? Ans. They ha'd. 
 
 Ques. And you gave them to understand you wanted to consider the 
 matter before you would agree to any, such a thing? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I pointed out to them . that we could not deliberate here 
 in their presence. The Council had got to talk the matter over and 
 come to a conclusion as a Council. They expected that then and there 
 we should get up in our places and say whether we would give them 
 the contract or not. I was a little annoyed at their being so pressing. 
 I was willing that we slionld do what wo could to meet the wishes of 
 the Common Council of St. John, but we ought to have some little 
 opportunity afforded us of considering the question as an Executive. 
 
 Ques. Well, Mr. Kelly was one of those who were most pressing as 
 he says. He said the contract should be given immediately to Mr. 
 Leary ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, for the 82500. They were all pressing enough ; they 
 were all very pressing I thought. Probably he was about the last man 
 that addressed the Council and each of them had been getting a little 
 more pressing than his predecessor, and — 
 
 tillfcfc**-!^ iB 
 
165 
 
 Ques. And the thing was getting a little too hot? 
 
 Ana. Yes, rather sultry. 
 
 Ques. That being so, then the Council afterwards passed the order 
 rthat you have read on the 30th of December, which is that the contract 
 should be given upon the basis of the $2500 a year? 
 
 Ans. One half per cent, on the expenditure. 
 
 Ques. Not exceeding that, and nothing else ? Ans. Just so. 
 
 Ques. And you consented that Mr. McLelian should announce that 
 and that letter of his of the 3rd of January is on that basis ? 
 
 Ans. We recognized this — 
 
 Ques. The authority you gave him was on the basis of the Order- 
 in-Council? 
 
 Ans. They wanted SI 0,000 a year from us, and we said all we 
 could do, if we consented to do that, was to give a contract for $2500, 
 and if there is anything further to be given that matter can only be de- 
 termined after we have consulted with the Legislature. The members 
 of the Government were not unwilling to go as far as they could in 
 helping the enterprise forward. We recognized that the $2500 would 
 not secure the building of the dock, but how much more we gave de- 
 pended on the state of the finances and the feeling of our friends. 
 
 Ques. I am asking you this : The letter of the Provincial Secretary 
 that he was ready to enter into a contract, referred to a contract based 
 upon the then existent Order of Council, did not it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, so far as ray consent went it was based upon the action of 
 the Council and upon the feeling of my colleagues in the Council. 
 
 Ques. And that contract as then ordered by the Council was simply 
 for §2500 ? 
 
 Ans. That was all we had ihe Legislative authority to give. 
 
 Ques. And that is what the letter was published about? 
 
 Ans. Well, I did not know that a letter was being written. All the 
 Secretary asked me about was as to whether I would consent to his 
 Bngaging that the $2500 a year absolutely should be given. 
 
 Ques. And any announcement of his readiness to sign that contract 
 would be based upon the Order-in-Couucil then existent for the $2500 
 a year ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. and he also spoke — I think he mentioned in that same 
 telephonic conversation — he may have spoken of being anxious to 
 encourage the expectation of the Common Council that we would do 
 something more for them if possible, but 1 would never commit myself 
 to any definite pledge on the subject at all further than to assure them 
 
166 
 
 I 
 
 that as far as I was concerned I was willing to help them forward' to- 
 the extent of our ability and the wishes of our friends. 
 
 Ques. (Reading letter of Mr. McLellap of date January 3rd in Globe); 
 Now, that letter had reference entirely to the contract then ordered by 
 the Council? 
 
 Ans. Oh, that letter 1 presume was written, from the date of it, in 
 consequence of our conversation, and because we were willing to give 
 them the $2500 at any moment. 
 
 Ques. But the Order-in-Council was for only $2500 ? 
 
 Ans. That is all. 
 
 Ques. And that was the only contract the Secretary was authorized 
 to declare would be entered into ? 
 
 Ans. That is all we were authorized, and all we pledged ourselves 
 to give. 
 
 Ques. It refers to the Order-in-Council passed by the Government ; 
 that must have been the one you read ? 
 
 Ans. That is the only Order that had passed on the subject. 
 
 Ques. Now then, on the night of the 15th — Wednesday night, Mr. 
 Pugsley came up to Harvey. Were you there ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. He had the conversation with you that you detailed about 
 the contribution to the funds, but did not he also tell you that it was 
 a very important thing in St. John that the contract should be signed 
 before the election ? 
 
 Ans. I don't think he did. He may have ; I cannot say he did not,, 
 because I can very well'understand that it would be important, probably. 
 
 Ques. Well, if he did not represent that to you why did you tele- 
 graph in for your partner to send the contract down ? 
 
 Ans. He wanted me to return him the draft contract which he had 
 sent to me. I explained to him that I had not had time to look over it. 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you that it was important to have the con- 
 tract signed before the election? 
 
 Ans. Well, I cannot say that he did. 
 
 Ques, Was it not in consequence of that that you telegraphed for 
 the papers to be sent to him ? 
 
 Ans. I telegraphed, or rather authorized Mr. Pugsley to send the 
 telegram. My impression is very strongly that he sent it for me, and 
 that I requested him to describe it to Mr. Barry and tell him that it was 
 either at my house or the oflSce. 
 
 Ques. Was not that in consequence of his putting to you the neces- 
 sity of having that contract signed ? 
 
167 
 
 I Globe); 
 ered by 
 
 Ques. 
 
 AD8. 
 
 
 Quea. 
 
 of it, Id 
 
 Ads. 
 
 to give 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ad8. He pointed out to me that the draft contract bad been lying 
 in my hands some days and that they wanted to have it returned. 
 And they v?anted it signed, did not they ? 
 I presume they wanted it signed. 
 
 Did he not tell you that Leary or his friends wanted it signed? 
 I do not think he did. 
 Are you sure? Ans. No, I am not. 
 But you don't remember that he did ? Ans. 1 do not. 
 Any way you did have them sent down. Did you receive 
 any telegrams up there in connection with this contract or the docks 
 iit all when you were at Harvey or Canterbury ? 
 
 Ans. No. But I am perfectly willing everything I sent should be 
 produced. 
 
 Ques. I am asking you whether you got any from St. John at 
 Harvey or Canterbury ? 
 
 Ans, I got notliing witli reference to the contract at all either at 
 Harvey or Canterbury. My mind was first drawn to this subject by Mr. 
 Pugsley when he came up on the train. 
 Ques. On Wednesday you were at Harvey ? 
 Wednesday evening I got to Harvey. 
 And on Thursday morning? 
 Thursday evening I was at Canterbury. 
 Where were you during Thursday itself? 
 I was along the line of railway. I was at McAdam Junction 
 iwhile and spoke to the friends there about having my meeting put off. 
 Ques. You had a meeting Thursday night at Canterbury station ? 
 Yes. 
 
 On Friday morning you left there and went to St. John ? 
 Yes. 
 
 What time did you get to St. John? 
 I would think about half past three ; perhaps it was 4 o'clock 
 when I got to the hotel. 
 
 Ques. What train did you take down ? 
 
 Ans. The C. P. R. train ; I think it gets there about 3 o'clock. 
 Ques. When you got to St. John did you see or have anything to do 
 with the contract being signed ? 
 
 Ans. No, the contract was never mentioned to me in St. John. I 
 never thought ot the contract again. I had not thought of the contract 
 from the time I got the letter from Pugsley till Pugsley spoke of it, and 
 then I did not think of it afterwards. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
168 
 
 I 
 
 1: 
 
 Ques. The contract you authorized him to draw was on the basis of 
 $2500 a year? 
 
 Ans. Yes, the only specific amount we could possibly pledge the 
 Government to, and I may add, Mr. Hanington, that I never saw the 
 contract until my curiosity prompted me to look at it after the session 
 opened and I thought the contract was drawn with a great deal of care 
 and drawn very fully and satisfactorily. That is the view I took of it 
 when I saw it, and strongly, too. 
 
 Ques. I see by this contract he is not obliged to perform the work 
 at all unless he gets an additional subsidy from you ? 
 
 Ans. That is correct. 
 
 Ques. If the contract was to be based on tlie Order-inCouncil, that 
 he was to build it for §^2500, did you know that that was in the contract 
 till you saw it ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know what was in it till I saw it. But when 1 
 did see it T thought it was all right enough, because everybody would 
 know that unless he did get more than $10,000 from the city of 
 St. John and $2500 from the Government, he would not be likely to 
 spend a million dollars. 
 
 Ques. Anyway as far as this clause is concerned you did not know 
 that it was in it till you saw it this session? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques, Therefore you yourself never examined the contract until 
 after it was signed. Did you examine the draft ? 
 
 Ans. I did not open the draft. I must have read Mr. Pugsley's 
 letter accompanying it, because it was a short note stating that he en- 
 closed me the draft which he wanted me to examine, but 1 did not 
 examine the draft. 1 was more concerned then in looking after my own 
 election than in looking after the dry dock in St. John, 
 
 Ques. As far as you intended, if I understand you rightly, it was that 
 the contract, if Mr. Leary entered into it, should not be contingent upon 
 getting further aid from the Province, whatever it might have been as 
 to the Dominion ? Ans. I have no objection to that. 
 
 Ques. But the contract as ordered by the Government had no 
 reference to it ? 
 
 Ans. If I had seen that draft and it had corresponded with the 
 present contract, 1 should have been quite satisfied with it. 
 
 Ques. But the Order-in-Council had no such agreement to it.' 
 
 Ans. No, but the sense of the Council was that further aid would be 
 required if this thing was to amount to anything at all, and that would 
 
169 
 
 be willing to give it if we were in a position to give it, iind if our friends 
 would sustain us in giving it. 
 
 Ques. Tiiat was not put into the Order-in-Council, was it? 
 
 Ans. No, beciuise we felt we could not authorize a contract for 
 anything more than $2500. 
 
 Ques. The contract was to he an absolute contract on those con- 
 ditions of $2500 a year ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is all we were authorized to pledge ourselves to. 
 
 Ques. There was a considerable conflict — there has been a consider- 
 able conflict between rival companies as to getting this work ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, there has been some. The original St. John company I 
 assumed, perhaps for inadequate reasons, had dropped out. Mr. 
 Hurd Peters wrote a communication stating that he had retired from 
 the company or retired from the business, and we never had, as far as 
 I know, any intimation in an oflicial form or direct to the Govern- 
 ment that the company had been reconstituted. 
 
 Ques. No, but you did that Mr. Robertson and somebody else 
 wanted the contract? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that Is something else. Mr. Robertson, Mr. Van 
 Slooten and Mr. Skinner pressed upon us that we should give that 
 company the contract. 
 
 Ques. Now, has the time been extended to Mr. Leary? 
 No, it has not. 
 Have you written to him to that eftect or anything on that 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 subject? 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 No, I have written to nobody to that eftect. 
 Then as far as his contract now is concerned, it is oft' ? 
 The contract has dropped. 
 
 Now, did not they press, or did they — the members of your 
 Government — did not some persons press the members of the Govern- 
 ment to pledge them that they would advocate an additional grant? 
 
 Ans. Well, the only pressure as far as I know that we had brought 
 to bear upon us was that of the Common Council at the time of their 
 delegation. They pressed us to say that we would give them $7500 
 more, or $10,000 a year in all. If I could go into matters talked over 
 individually among members of the Government on the subject — net in 
 Council exactly but individually — I might say that we felt that if we 
 could give them a further grant we would be glad to do it. 
 Ques. That is individually you all agreed to do that? 
 
170 
 
 Ads. Yes. I don't think there was a dissenting voice in the Ccmncil. 
 
 Ques. Did not these people want that put in writing? 
 
 Ans. I never heard of it. No member of the Government ever 
 told me that he was so asked by anybody. 
 
 Ques. Nor from anybody ? 
 
 Ans. No, nobody ever told me. Nobody either in the Council or 
 out of the Council ever told me that Leary or anybody for him wanted 
 that put in writing. 
 
 Ques. Nor anybody in St. John? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't remember of any single individual in St. John 
 making a request of that kind, or anyone telling me that a request of 
 that kind had been made. 
 
 Ques. U ere you not intormed that some person or persons uiterest- 
 ed in this matter in St. John wanted a pledge from the members of 
 the Government that they would ? 
 
 Ans. No, I was asked on the Friday afternoon at the hotel after I 
 got into St. John, by public men, to say at the meeting in the Institute 
 that the Government would be willing to give further aid, and to hold 
 out as encouraging a prospect as I possibly could as to what the Gov- 
 ernment would do in that connection, but it was never suggested to 
 me that any written pledge or promise should be given. 
 
 Ques. Well now, you know Mr. Stackhouse,didyou see him among 
 those leading men in St. John, at the hotel or elsewhere, that day? 
 
 Ans. I think it is likely I met him at the public meeting on the 
 platform that evening. 
 
 Ques. Had you any conversation with him on the subject? 
 
 Ans. No, I had no conversation at all on the subject. 
 
 Ques. But you did with certain persons because you say they 
 pressed you ? 
 
 Ans. Well, these were gentlemen that came to the hotel. Mr. 
 Stackhouse did not come there. Mr. John McMillan I think was one 
 and some newspaper men were others. 
 
 Ques. Did you see Mr. Kelly? 
 
 Yes, in company with others. 
 Was he at the hotel ? 
 Yes. 
 
 Did not he press on you to make this pledge ? 
 Well, I think he did, because they were nearly all anxious 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 that I should make as encouraging a statement as I could upon the 
 
171 
 
 platform. They thought that if I felt that way and was justified in 
 doing it, it would have a very beneficial effect upon the electiou. 
 
 Ques. And it would encourage them to go more strongly into it — 
 encourage your friends to go more strongly into the fight? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not say that, Mr. Hanington. They all represent- 
 ed to me, I think almost every one of them, that there was a very strong 
 impression in St. John that the Government was hostile to St. John> 
 and were unwilling to do anything more than just what they were 
 obliged to do under the act, and they wished that I should give evi- 
 dence when I was speaking in the Institute, if I felt justified in doing 
 it, that there was no such unfriendly feeling towards St. John, and 
 that there was a frienc'ly feeling and we would do all we could. 
 
 Ques. In connection with the dock business ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and harbor improvements. 
 
 Ques. And they urged you to say that you and the i-est of the 
 Government would do what you could if the Legislature would let you. 
 You would do all you could consistent with the finances and if the 
 House of Assembly would allow you ? 
 
 Ans. I made the statement on the platform — I was a little more 
 enthusiastic than I ought to have been, perhaps, but I told them there 
 was a disposition on our part to treat St. John generously. 
 
 Ques. And that was principally in connection with the dock work ? 
 
 Ans. Altogether directed to that point. 
 
 Ques. Who beside Kelly did you see there in the hotel that pressed 
 you to do this ? 
 
 Ans. Well, there was Mr. John McMillan who came in. I think 
 Mr. Gilmore of the Telegraph and I think Mr. McCready was in. I 
 don't wish to be taken as making a positive statement with regard to 
 the individuals; there was a number of them. They filed in and they 
 filed out ; there were two or three of them in at a time ; there was 
 nothing private j uothing that I was unwilling for everybody and any- 
 body to hear. 
 
 Ques. Did Mr. Pugsley tell you that, that the friends of the Gov- 
 ernment down there would subscribe $1,000 if you went down there to 
 speak ? 
 
 Ans. If it was any inducement for me to go down there, and to 
 leave my own county and my engagements, our friends down there were 
 willing to help me to the extent of a thousand dollars or more. 
 
 Ques. When did Mr. Pugsley tell you that anything had been done ? 
 
172 
 
 Ann. He did uot tell me that anything bad been done. 
 
 Ques. Not at all? Ads. No. 
 
 QueB. Did any person tell you that any funds were contributed, 
 and if so, when? Ans. No, no one told me. 
 
 Ques. Never did? Ans. No, never. 
 
 Ques. And you never knew that it was until this inquiry came on 
 and brought it out ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How, and under what circumstances this additional clause 
 was put into the contract, you do not know ? Ans. No. 
 
 Quos. You had nothing to do with this yourself? 
 
 Ans. No, I fully concur in it, and when I saw it, thought it was 
 all right. There is no doubt that Leary, or whoever else built this dock 
 and other improvements, would require a Dominion subsidy or a 
 larger local subsidy unless the Dominion subsidy was larger than they 
 anticipated. 
 
 Ques. Who represented Mr. Leary in the matter of this contract, 
 you do not know? Ans. No, I never heard it either. 
 
 Ques. If I understand you rightly the Solicitor General had charge 
 of the matter of entering into and fi.xing up this contract in St. John? 
 
 Ans. The Secretary communicated to me. I had my hands full at 
 the time, and said that the Solicitor General could draw it — that is my 
 recollection. 
 
 Ques, Then from that time you had nothing to do actually with the 
 entering into of the contract at St. John but it was left to the Solicitor 
 General and the then Provincial Secretary ? 
 
 Ans. From the 3rd January — from that telephonic message 1 knew 
 nothing about the dock arrangement until Mr, Pugsley sent me the 
 draft, and that did not rest on my mind a moment, and I laid it aside 
 among my letters and on the Wednesday evening at Harvey was the 
 next time it occurred to me. 
 
 Ques. You had nothing to do with the entering into of the contract 
 or having it signed, but Mr. Pugsley had? 
 
 Ans. I had nothing to do with it further than I have said. 
 
 Ques. It was left to Mr. Pugsley and the Secretary ? 
 
 Ans. I suggested to the Secretary, if my memory serves me, that he 
 would get the Solicitor General to draw it up as I was too busy at the time. 
 
 Quea. Then so far as you know the Solicitor General had the 
 juanagement of it? 
 
 Ans. Further than drawing it up I do not know he bad. The 
 
 '^'rr:A',rr: ZiM'lL^ t ' .A.. '' 7 
 
173 
 
 Provincial Secretary was the person to whom I communicated the- 
 information that the Solicitor was to draw it. 
 
 Qiies. Had you any communication with the Proviucial Secretary 
 on the subject of this contract, with Leary or with his agent, from the 
 time you spoke of — that is the 3rd January? 
 
 Ans. No. I am thoroughly positive that my meraoiy is not at 
 fault there. 
 
 Ques. Then from the third of January so far as the drawing up of 
 the contract or the delivery of it, you had nothing to do with it but it 
 was left to your colleagues in St. John — that is the Provincial Secretary 
 and the Solicitor General? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Qucs. When executed and delivered, you did not know ? 
 
 Ans. No, I had not the faintest idea. I do not know when it was 
 delivered. I did not hoar it was delivered. 
 
 Quos. What took place as to its delivery, you do not know any- 
 tliing more than you have said? Ans. No, no more than you. 
 
 Ques. You knew, did you not, that the Solicitor General had been 
 elected by acclamation? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and ho had not anything to do, so far as running an 
 election, and I thought he would be at leisure and could draw it. 
 
 Ques. You knew ho was taking an active part in the campaign in 
 .St. John in speaking and so on? 
 
 Ans. I thought he was, and I thought he would, as I think he ought 
 to do. 
 
 Ques. He talked the matter over with you when in St. John? 
 
 Ans. I ought to explain to you that my opportunities of speaking 
 to the Solicitor General that evening were very limited— it was pretty 
 late in the evening, and the meeting was delayed, and I had but very 
 few minutes conversation with him. 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you as to the prospects in St. John and how 
 it looked? 
 
 Ans. I think it very likely he did, I have not any doubt but he did, 
 but have no memory of it. 
 
 Ques. You knew that he took an active part in managing that 
 election ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know about management, but I believe he was very 
 much interested in the election and did all he could. 
 
 Ques. You knew from what took place between you that he would 
 have a general knowledge of how things were working ? 
 
 I.— ■-..■■-. -- :..,....>l^^>— .-«..l«.aillil 
 
^i 
 
 
 lii 
 
 174 
 
 Ana. Proba])Iy lio would, or he would think ho had. I doubt very 
 much if ho did hiivo ii very accurate idea about it. 
 
 Qiies. Mr. Leary was not in St. John then? 
 
 Am. I never Haw Mr. Leary except on the Sunday in the presence 
 of thcHO people and in tlio Council Chamber the nighi before, but I novei 
 communicated with him, I never called upon him, nor wrote him or 
 anybody for him. I never had outside of what I have said any com- 
 munication with him in any way, shajjo or tornj. 
 
 Qnes. 1 think you said that you never heard anybody urge the 
 Government to sign any memorandum in connection with the mutter 
 — only the contract itself? 
 
 Alls. No, never. I was never asked by anybody to do anything 
 more than to make a reassuring statement IVom the Institute platform. 
 
 exiles. Did yon never hear that anybody had asked any mem- 
 ber of the (Jovernmeut to give it in writing — so far as are individ- 
 ually concerned ? 
 
 Ans. No. I never heard that. We were ai)parently in this posi- 
 tion — we were abused all over creation because we had not done the 
 thiiijj: fast (MKiU"h and then we were abused because we did it. 
 
 (^nes. You knew at the meeting at the Institute that night that the 
 contract had been signed, did you not? 
 
 Ans. No, I had not been told that the contract had been signed 
 and more, I did not ask. 
 
 (^ues. (Mr. I'ngsley). I uii(lerst»)od you to state in St. John when 
 spoken to by these public men, in reference to what the (rovernmcnt 
 would bo disposed to do in the way of l"iirllier assistance? 
 
 Ans. That I would make a public statement that while I could not 
 speak for the (Jovernment and could only apeak for myself, and 1 was 
 careful in the language 1 emi)loyed, that 1 felt individually like treating 
 St. John generously i,i the matter. 
 
 Ques. Did you (!ver authorize any person to make any statement 
 on your behalf or on' 'half of the (Jovernment beyond that public 
 declaration you made h. ..ic Institute? 
 
 Ans. >i'o, not »»nything beyond that in any way. 
 
 David McLkllan Called, tStrorn iduI Exaiinneii (»j Mr. UaniiKjton: 
 
 Ques. You Avcre the late Provincial Secretary ? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. \'"ou ran in the last election in St. John V Aus. Yes. 
 
 il •) : 
 
 J 
 
175 
 
 Quos. CaUin<» your uttention to the contract Id evideuco here, 
 when did you Hrst soo this contract ? 
 
 Ans. 1 first saw it on the day I signed it. 
 
 Qncs. Where did you sign it? 
 
 \n8. Well, now, I could not just exactly sny — I was very l»uyy 
 that (lay. Mr. Pugsley met me and told me he 1- J the contract ready, 
 and would bring it to me for signature — ^ caiiuoi tell now whether it 
 wiis in his oflice or in Mr. McLellan's store or in the executive rooms 
 — I aigned it, hut I am not sure where. 
 
 Ques. What time of day did you sign it, do 3'()U know? 
 
 Ans. 1 would he inclined to think it would he after dinner, hut I 
 am not positive. 
 
 Ques. Vou are not positive of it — was it in the afternoon or ahoiit 
 noon ;' 
 
 Ans. It might l)e ahout noon — T am not positive ahout that. 
 
 (^ucs. It, was sometime hetweeii the time you say you met Mi . 
 Pugsley in tlu; morning and what? 
 
 Ans. it would ho som«'wh('re between ten o'clock and six o'clock. 
 
 (^ues. On what day was this? 
 
 Alls. The 17th, if that is thc^ date of the contract, l)ut I do not le- 
 iiiemhcr the date of the (lontract itself. 
 
 Ques. Was it not signed long before tea time? 
 
 Ans. 1 may have signed it any time during the day. 
 
 Ques. In other words, you cannot say whether you signed it before 
 dinner or after dinner, or what time during the day :' 
 
 Ans. I ciimiot remember wlu'ie I signed it, I know I first met him 
 in the morning on coming to town, and he tlien told me he had the 
 contract ready to sign. 
 
 Ciues. You signed it on that day, did you not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 (^ues. Had ho spoken to you about having it any day before ''. 
 
 Ans. Yes, he told me some days betoit^ that the coiilraet was ready, 
 and I asked him if the Attorney had seen it, and he snid he had sent 
 the contract to the Attorney Ue.ieral for apiiroval and th-it it had not 
 come back. 
 
 (iucs. Then did you urge upo;; him — you were then the Provincial 
 Secretary and they were opposing y<»u — did you urge upon him it was 
 important that that the contract should lie signed before the election? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Quos. You never told him that? Ans. No, 1 never told him that. 
 
176 
 
 m I 
 
 f 
 
 i:' 
 
 W4- 
 
 Ques. Do you know or not of hie going up to the Attoruej 
 Gencral and getting him to telegraph to send it to St. John ? 
 
 Ans. lie said he would send and get the copy. He said it had not 
 come down, and if my memory serves me right, that he had wired or 
 telephoned to Fredcricton and the Attorney was not there, and I said 
 I would like the Attorney to approve of it before I would sign it. 
 
 Ques. Was not that so that it might be signed before the meeting 
 that the Attorney General was to be at? 
 
 Ans. Well, no, not particularly. 
 
 (^ucs. tSo that it would be signed as early as possible. You wanted 
 it signed, did you not ? 
 
 Ans. From the day 1 gave thi; Mayoi- (Mayor Loekliart) that 
 letter, I was prcjjared to sign the contract any nionient alter that thai 
 it was brought to nie, but I never urged the Solicitor (ieinMiil to draw 
 up the contract, nor did 1 ever urge him that it should be drawn up 
 previous to tin; election, at all ; but I told him that when the contract 
 was drawn up, after I had given that letter, I was prepared to sign it 
 any day it was l)rought. 
 
 Ques. Did not you and he talk it over as important it should be 
 signed before the Attorney General spoke at the meeting Y 
 
 Ans. 1 do not remember any conversation of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it did net take place? 
 
 Ans. J think I am warranted in saying that. 
 
 Quos. I have asked you as to when that contract was signed and 
 you said that you signed it on the 17th January but you could not 
 tell the exact time that day. And you cannot tell exactly where you 
 signed it? 
 
 .•^. r . No, I cannot tell where I signed it. i\Iy impression is though 
 that it was in the executive committee room — I was there most of the 
 time — we called it our heaiNpiarters and at that nine I was signing a 
 great many papers. 
 
 Ques. That is at the headquarters of the Govermncnt ticket in St. 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Where was the building? 
 
 In the Mageo block, I think that is the name of it. 
 Who was present when you signed it? 
 I do not now remember. The room from time to time was full 
 of people. They were coming in and going out — friends of the party 
 were coming iu and going out, getting ballots and so on. 
 
 John ? 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 
 '{■ '" 
 
177 
 
 Ho laid it down and I 
 
 Mr. 
 
 c 
 Ans. 
 
 Alls. 
 (^ues. 
 
 Alls. 
 
 Qucs. Was Mr. Piigslcy there? 
 
 Ans. He brought me the contract to sign it. 
 signed it and handed it back to him. 
 
 Ques. Was there any one there representing Leary? 
 
 Ans. Not that I know of. 
 
 Qucs. Had you read it over before that or not? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not remember seeing it bef.jro that day. 
 l^igsley had told mo he had it drawn up some days before — 
 
 (iuos. But did you read it that day, or did he road it to you? 
 1 think ho did. 
 Which did hf, read it to you or did you road it yourself? 
 I am not positive now. 
 Are y(»u sure either event took place ? 
 
 Yes, 1 know the contents were given to mo either by Mr. 
 I'ligsley or I road it. 
 
 (,)ues. Are you sure ? 
 
 Alls. I am quite positive about reading, but still would not swear 
 [lositively that I did. 
 
 Ques. This was in one of the committee rooms ? 
 
 Ans. My impression is that it was, but I am not sure about it. 
 
 < Jucs. During that day was i\Ir. Kolly there ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say whether Kolly was there that day or not. 1 
 had seen him from time to time about the rooms, but I could not say 
 whether Kolly was tiiore or not that day. 
 
 Ques. Jle was one of your active men in your campaign, was he 
 not ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he professed to be very friendly with us. Whatever he 
 said he would do I think ho would, and we took it for granted ho would. 
 
 Ques. I^'o far as you know, he was an active man, working in your 
 interests, and so professed to be, had he not? 
 
 Ans. Yes, ho professed to lie so. 
 
 Ques. Then when you signed this contract there would be others 
 in the room, would there not ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, 1 could not say now though who were in the room, but 
 there were people coming backwards and forwards, and the clerks 
 were there writing. 
 
 C^ues. It would be a public fact. There was no concealment about it ? 
 
 Ans. So far as I know I do not know whether auyenc else knew it 
 or not. 
 
 12 
 
 _.-k£_iiJu!i.ii. 
 
178 
 
 Qiies. It was read to you there, or you read it yourself there ? 
 
 Ans. 1 think I did read it. I know I signed it and handed it U> 
 the Solicitor. 
 
 Ques. Was it not a public room where the Leary contract wa»< 
 sigucnl ? 
 
 Ans. I would not like to swear it was. 1 do not know and would 
 not like to swear it was or that other persons were j)rcsent in the ror)tn, 
 or if there was that they did not know it. 1 do not know thiit it w;is 
 publicly known in the room that it was signed or not. 
 
 (^ucs. What (lay did these papers come to Mr. Pugslcy, do yon 
 know < Ans. I do not know. 
 
 (,»ues. Previous to his coniing in .■md asking you to sign this con- 
 tract, had he told you that the papers had come irom Frederieton? 
 
 Ans. Only that morning previous to signing it, if you will let uk 
 explain. IIo said to m(!, sometime shortly after the letter was given 
 to Mayor Lockhart, that the contract was ready to be signed. 
 
 Ques. That letter was on the old .laiuiary? 
 
 Ans. Yes. Well, some few dnys after that, it was, I asked il 
 the Attorney (ieneral had sent it, and he said he had sent the contract 
 to the Attorney General but that it had not iieen returned — a day oi 
 two bi'iore the contract was signed — maybe th(> day Ix^fore hv told me 
 he had been trying to find the Attorney (Jeneral as he had the contract, 
 and 1 then told him I would sign it whenever ho brought it, if the 
 Attorney said it suited him and that was sometime previous to when 
 he told mc he had it ready, as I have said. 1 did not sign it then a> 
 he dill not have it with him — I do iu)t know now where! it was lie told 
 me that, I think it was in his ollicc — he said on this day that it wa> 
 ready to sign at any time and that day I was most of the time in the 
 executive rooms, and that is the reason why 1 have the impression it 
 was signed in the committee room sometime during the day when he 
 came back with the contract. 
 
 (^ues. You told him you would sign it if the Attorney (ienernl 
 approved of it — did he tell you or did he not that the Attorney Cieueral 
 had approved of it ? 
 
 Ans. The Attorney General had then returned it and I took it foi' 
 granted that it was approved of and 1 signed it and asked some ques- 
 tions about it at the time. I know I had asked as to the plans and 
 specilications. The question I asked was this: " Now under tiiis con- 
 tract wo have the right to appro »o of the plans and specilications on 
 
17i) 
 
 this fiiii- 
 ton ? 
 
 11 lot IIK 
 
 the part of the Govcrnmont although the contract was signed," and his 
 answer was, certainly it was. That it was mulerstood and was clear by 
 the contract that it was the right of the Government to approve of the 
 plans and spcjcilications. 
 
 (^),iies. Then yon thonglit it was approved by the Attorney Genera] 
 as it was, did you ? Ans. I suppose I did. 
 
 (^ues. And it was ui)on that l)asis that you signed it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. The Attorney General had telephoned me that the 
 Solicitor General would draw up the contract before that. 
 
 (^lUis. Who represented i\Ir. Leary in this matter of tiie contract. 1 
 see this is signed by Mr. Murray i 
 
 Ans. I presume he did. 1 do not know l)y what authority he 
 re[)resented him, but I know his name was signed to the contract as 
 attorney for Leary. 
 
 (^ues. Hefore it was brought to you? 
 
 Ans. Yes, l)efor(! it was brought to me. That is my impression. 
 
 (^ues. Are you sure it wae on when it was lirought to you by the 
 Solicitor? Ans. 1 fool (juite positive! it was. 
 
 (iues. That is Mr. Murray the late American Council, Mr. James 
 Murray? Ans. Yes. 
 
 (^uos. lie represented him ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 (,^ues. ])(♦ you know whether the Solicitor General or his brother 
 were the solicitors for Leary in this matter '\ Ans. No. 
 
 (^ucs. Did you nol hear so ? 
 
 Ans. 1 have heard remarks on the stieet about it. 
 
 Ques. Previous to the contract being signed did you hear that Mr. 
 I'ugsley, the Solictior (ien(!ral, or his brother — they were both together 
 in the one ofBce ? Ans. I presume so. 
 
 (^ues. Are they partners ? Ans. 1 do not know. 
 
 (^ues. i'r(!vious to the contract being signed by you had you heard 
 or not that Messrs. Pngsley, or one of them, was the solicitor for J^icary ? 
 
 Ans. The tinut they came up on the delegation 1 understood thai 
 Mr. Gilbert Pugsley was Leary's solicitor. 
 
 (^uos. Whether Mr. (iilbert Pngsley and .Mr. William Pngsley are 
 piirtners, you do not know ? 
 
 Alls. J do not. (.Mr. Pngsley — Woaro not partnors. Wc own real 
 estate together; but not legal partners). 
 
 (^ues. Mr. Gilbert I'ngshsy does not do much law business, does he ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that. 1 see him around. 
 
 
 <&' 
 
 • I'li'iiiil ii'ilMMIifiiiii inn'Mn^iii 
 
180 
 
 Ques. "When this paper came down, you do not know ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Pugsley was taking a very active part and interest in 
 securing your election, was he not? 
 
 Ans. Yos, I think so. I give him credit for being honest on that 
 occasion. 
 
 The committee adjourned till 8 p, m. 
 
 The Committee resumed at 8 p. m. 
 
 Present: ilr. Wilson, Chairman; Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Messrs. 
 Hetherington, Phinney and Atkinson. 
 
 Mr. Wilson asked the Committee their opinion as to the issue of a 
 subpana for the attendance of Mr. R. O. Stockton. 
 
 The Committee, after discussing the matter, stood against its issue : 
 Messrs. Mitchell and Hetheringtou ; and for : Messrs. Atkinson and 
 Phinney; and the motion for issue of subpcjona was disallowed. 
 
 Mr. Hanington then asked, what was the ruling of the Committee on 
 the other two — Messrs .James C. Roljertson and F. E. Barker, Q. C, 
 Avhom he stated were material and important witnesses on behalf of 
 the prosecution. 
 
 On being asked by the Chairman for his ground for calling these 
 ireutlemen and the evidence he desired to elicit, he said: lam instruct- 
 ed that these witnesses can prove that the Solicitor General or his 
 brother or some one for Leary, oHored from $4000 to $10,000 to enable 
 Leary to get the contract for the dock. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley having stated such statement was absolutely false, the 
 matter stood over. 
 
 Examination oj Mr. D. MoLellan toas then resiimed by Mr. 
 Hanington : 
 
 Ques. I think before tea we were asking you about this contract 
 and you told me you did not know what time it was signed. Was R. 
 W. L. Tibbits, your deputy, in St. John that day? 
 
 Ans. I could not swear as to that. I really do not know whether 
 he was in St. John that day or not. 
 
 Ques. Were you here that day ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Tibbits in the executive room of your party that 
 day? 
 
181 
 
 Aus. I do not remember, because I would not like to say he was 
 in St, John that day, and I could not swear he was not in St. John, but 
 I don't remember him being there. 
 
 Ques. I see this paper is "witness to the signature of David 
 McLellau, R. W. L. Tibbits." Did he witness your signature that 
 day ? Ans. That I am not sure of. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know he did not? 
 
 Ans. I cannot swear whether he witnessed my signature or not to 
 that document, I know Mr. Pugsley brought the document and I 
 signed it and who witnessed it I cannot say. 
 
 Mr. Pugsley — It is only a duplicate copy that is here. 
 
 Ques. If the duplicate copy is witnessed by Mr. Tibbits — the ouo 
 that went to Leary is the same as this? Ans. I presume so. 
 
 Ques. I would like to know if Mr. Tibbits witnessed your sig- 
 nature? (To the Chairman: I will not want a subpoena for Mr. 
 Tibbits, but he might be sent for). 
 
 Ans. I think there was no seal put on to the document, and I think 
 it had to be sent up here afterwards to be sealed, and my impression 
 is that when the seal was put on the document, Tibbits acknowledged 
 that to be the signature and witnessed it. 
 
 Ques. Then, if 1 understand you correctly, this contract when 
 signed by you in St. John, had no seal on it? 
 
 Aus. It had not the Provincial seal. That is my impression now, 
 that the Provincial seal was not attached to the document sent down, 
 and that afterwards when the seal was put on the document here in 
 Fredericton, that is the time Mr. Tibbits witnessed it. That is my 
 impression at all events. 
 
 Ques. If I uaderstand you correctly the paper that you signed that 
 day in a hurry there had no seal of the Province on it ? 
 
 Aus. No, it had not the Provincial seal on it. 
 
 Ques. And you simply signed it as a contract, that is all ? 
 
 Ans. That is all. 
 
 Ques. And not under the seal of the Province? 
 
 Ans. The understanding was that the seal was to be put on when 
 it came up here. The Solicitor told me it was necessary that the seal 
 should be attached to it, and when I came to Fredericton afterwards 
 the seal was attached to the document and I think Tibbits witnessed 
 my signature then. 
 
 Ques. How long after that would it be? Aus. I could not say. 
 
 iMinli'ij^'*--'- ■ -■'-"■-■■-•— •'--■■■^■-■^- 
 
182 
 
 Qiies. About how long ? 
 
 Ans. I camo to Fredericton the day after the election, that would 
 be the 2l8t, and that might have been the day. 
 
 Ques. So that if I understand you rightly, all that was signed on 
 that day was a paper by yourself, so far as the Government was con- 
 cerned, and which had not the signature of Leary to it at all except 
 that it was signed by Murray as his agent or attorney, and you arc 
 not quite sure of that ? 
 
 Ans. I think that it was signed at the time the document wag brought 
 to mc by Murray as his attorney. 
 
 Ques. And the signature "J. D. Lesiry and I hereby ratify and 
 approve of the aforegoing contract," was put on afterwards ? 
 I Ans. I think and believe that must have been put on afterwards. 
 
 ; Ques. And therefore if Kelly told Murphy, or rather telephoned 
 
 •■; Murphy, that the paper or contract was all right. 
 
 |j Mr. Pugsley — There is no statement like that. 
 
 jij; Mr. Ilaningtou — I did not say there was. That is not my question. 
 
 Ques. Now if he did telephone that that day, it would be quite cor- 
 rect, would it not ? Ans. Telephoned what? 
 
 Ques. If Kelly telephoned up that the paper or contract was signed, 
 that would be correct, would it not ? 
 
 Ans. It was signed on the seventeenth. 
 
 Ques. Yes, on that day? 
 
 Ans. It is correct that the document was signed on the 17th. 
 Whether he telephoned up, and that would make it all right, I don't 
 know. I don't know whether his telephoning up Avould make it all 
 right or not. 
 
 Ques. But it would be a correct report, would it not ? 
 
 Ans. I suppose it would be a correct report. You are able to put 
 that construction on it as well as I would be. 
 
 Ques. But you know of the facts of the thing being done and I do 
 not. Did you know that when you signed this there was no 
 Order-in-Council authorizing that clause that is in it? 
 
 Ans. I did not look at it in that way. I do not think it made any 
 material diftcrence about that because there was no Order-in-Council ; 
 there was no guarantee from the Government that there would be 
 any further aid. 
 
 Ques. But this paper that you signed Avas, that the contract should 
 not be binding on him unless there was further aid. Did you not know 
 
 .... :...^.j : ■•■'"■■^■^■la'M'iigriiiniiiiliAMlhiilWiMiijitf '■ 
 
183 
 
 that? (Objected to — contract in evidence and evidence of its 
 
 contents. 
 
 Ans. I am not prepared to say it would not bind him unless further 
 iiid was given. The way I understood it, if you will allow me to ex- 
 ])lain it, was — 
 
 Ques. Just look at that clause and see. (The witness here read the 
 clause referred to). By that clause of the agreement it appears, does 
 it not, that this contract was not binding on him unless there was 
 t'lntlicr Provincial aid ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, 1 should say so. 
 
 Ques, So that the contract that you signed was not the contract 
 ordered to bo entered into by the Government, was it. Tiiero was no 
 ^llch condition as tlmt in the order was there 'f 
 
 Ans. I considerod that it made no dillorence in regard to that clause 
 in tiiu contract. In making this explanation, the reason why 1 did not 
 I'onsider it so, was that the Solicitor and myself were trying to get 
 turther aid and we talked witli friends of Leary's who wished to have 
 rhe dry dock and harbor improvements made, that wo were anxious our- 
 selves that the contract should be entered into and that being the case 
 we felt that in all probability there would be further aid granted, although 
 we had no assurance from the Government, that is the Attorney 
 General or any other member ot the Government, that such aid would 
 by asked for and feeling that way about it, \ did not feel that the Order- 
 iu-l'ouncil limited me to sign a contract without a clause like that in it. 
 
 Ques. There is no clause like that in the order, is there ? 
 
 Ans. The order authorizes mo to enter into a contract with any 
 person or company for the erection of a dry dock in the city of St. 
 ■John, and we were to pay them a subsidy not exceeding $2500, based 
 on the calculation that the dock cost $500,000. 
 
 Ques. That did not authorize you to say one word, about additional 
 aid, did it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, the plans and specifications were to be approved by the 
 Governor in Council, and — 
 
 Ques. But I am not now asking about the plans and specifications. 
 This relieved him from carrying out the contract at all unless he got 
 further Provincial aid, did it not ? 
 
 Ans. He stated at the Council that he would not do that unless he 
 did get further aid. I[e said at the Council that he would not be able 
 to go on with the works unless he got a Dominion subsidy, and that he 
 expected further aid from the Province. 
 
w 
 
 184 
 
 \ I 
 
 Ques. And that was stated before the Order-in-Council of the 30tli 
 December was made ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And notwithstanding that statement having been made, you 
 put nothing of that condition into the Order-in-Council ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think it was. 
 
 Ques. Then on tho 17th, when this paper came down there, you 
 signed that paper without tho seal of tho Province, relieving him from 
 liability unless he got further aid ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I should say so by that. 
 
 Ques. Then did you not at that time pledge yourself individually 
 that you would try to got further aid ? 
 
 Ans. If you mean at the time I signed that contract, I say " no." I 
 talked to nobody but tlie Solicitor. But weeks before we had spoken 
 publicly and privately on the matter, and had stated wo would use our 
 best energies in an endeavor to get it. 
 
 Ques. You have spoken of talking with the friends of Leary, who 
 wanted to have him get tho contract for the dry dock ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell those friends that you would do all you 
 could to get further Provincial aid ? 
 
 Ans. It depends upon what you call friends of Leary. I considered 
 every man who was interctited in the erection of those works, friends 
 of Leary. 
 
 Ques. You do ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, they were furthering the enterprise on his behalf. 
 
 Ques. How ? 
 
 Ans. Some by their votes in the Council. Outside of those interest- 
 ed in that way in the work I do not know Leary's personal friends, I 
 never talked on the matter to his solicitor or — 
 
 Ques. Did you not talk to Gilbert Pugsley the brother of the 
 Solicitor General who you said was his solicitor? 
 
 Ans. He was in Boston weeks before that sick. 
 
 Ques. Weeks before tho election ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think he was at home at the time of the election. I 
 know he was sick and had been for weeks before. 
 
 Ques. And at the time of the election Mr. Gilbert Pugsley was in 
 Boston ? 
 
 Ans. That was the report, that he was lying ill in the Quincy House. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that Mr. William Pugsley professed to be 
 acting for his brother ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot say there was one professed to act for him. 
 
185 
 
 the 30tli 
 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ans. 
 
 ade, you 
 
 Ques. 
 
 
 Ans. 
 
 
 Ques. 
 
 ere, you 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Who professed to act for Leary in this contract ? 
 I presume Mr. Murray did. 
 Of your own knowledge ? 
 I do not know anything about it. 
 
 Who did you deliver the contract to when signed ? 
 To Mr. Pugsley who brought it. 
 
 Ques. Then Mr. Pugsley so far as you and the Government were 
 concerned — you said you delivered it to Pugsley ? Ans. Yes, 
 
 Ques. And the exact time of day you do not know whether forenoon 
 or afternoon ? 
 
 Ans. 1 am inclined to think it was towards evening. That is my 
 impression. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was not signed by you before one o'clock 
 on the 17th? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I will swear positively it was not signed before one 
 o'clock on the 17th. 
 
 Ques. Then what time was it signed ? 
 
 Ans. My impression is that it was .signed between four and six 
 o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was signed after the Attorney General 
 came f 
 
 Ans. I cannot say when he came. I did not see the Attorney General 
 till eight o'clock and don't know when he came — it was between seven 
 and eight when 1 saw him. 
 
 Ques. Since you went to tea you are able to swear more distinctly 
 than you were before on this point ? 
 
 Ans. I will tell you why, if you allow me. That day (in thinking 
 over the matters that took place that day and the business I done) 1 
 know I took ray horse and pung and went over to Portland to Mr. 
 Holly's place to see him on business, and I did not get back from there 
 till somewhere about four o'clock, and that is w!iy I feel satisfied that I 
 did not sign it till after that hour. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not sign it before four o'clock ? 
 
 Ans. I do not want to swear to anything I am not positively sure 
 about, but I feel certain it was from the reasons I have given, about 
 four o'clock. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you signed it after four? 
 
 Ans. I think I am perfectly safe in swearing 1 signed it after four 
 o'clock for the reasons given. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Pugsley came to you in the morning ? 
 
 m 
 
 rjres: 
 
IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 /. 
 
 
 fA 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 '*" ill 21 12.5 
 
 " '""" IIIIIM 
 
 c 141 11^ 
 111= 
 
 U III 1.6 
 
 ^? 
 
 <? 
 
 VI 
 
 -c'l 
 
 /; 
 
 % "'> 
 
 /y 
 
 ■m V' 
 
 <pj 
 
 .> 
 
 /A 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 
 Corporation 
 
 c^ 
 
 A<C 
 
 « 
 
 \ 
 
 \ 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, NY. 14580 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
 '■^ 
 
 
 6^ 
 
 <V 
 
 ^ 
 
 V^ 
 
 
 w^ 
 
Cx 
 
 r ^ 
 
 
186. 
 
 Alls. I met him iu the morning, some time after I came down t& 
 town in the morning, and ho told me he had the contract ready. 
 
 Ques. When he came back to you to sign it you think it was after 
 four o'clock ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Have you talked this matter over with Mr. Pugsley or any 
 one else since we adjourned ? Ans. No, I have not. 
 
 Ques. I ask, if you will tell me, who witnessed that in St. John 
 when you signed it? Ans. As I told you, I cannot rememl)er. 
 
 Ques. Who was there beside Pugsley? 
 
 Ans. There was a number of people ,in the room, in the executive 
 committee room, and if I signed it there, and I think it was there J. 
 signed it, I think Mr. Ilumphroy was there. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure of it? Ans. No, I would not be positive. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you signed it in the executive cdminittet' 
 room at all ? 
 
 Ans. I am not sure I did. I am not sure whether there or in Mr. 
 Pugsley's office, or where it was. I know I did not see Mr. Pugsley 
 that day except that time I spoke of in the morning when he told ii;e 
 it was ready, till after I came back from Mr. Holly's. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that you did not get back from Mr. Holly's 
 house till after tour o'clock ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I will, because I had an engagement at Carleton at three 
 and I know that I did not get back in time to go. 
 
 Ques. You told Mr. Pugsley in the morning that you would sign it? 
 
 Ans. Yes. Some time before dinner he told me — somewhere 
 about twelve it might be. 
 
 Ques. In the presence of other people V 
 
 Ans. I do not think anybody was there when I met Mr. Pugsley. 
 
 Ques. You met Mr. Pugsley where? 
 
 Ans. Either on the street or in his office. I know he came to see 
 me about the contract. 
 
 Ques. When he tii'st came 1 understood you to say he came in with 
 the contract? 
 
 Ans. I said that I first met him, I thought, on the street, when he 
 told me he had the contract ready — and that is what you will find if 
 you took down the evidence correctly — and I said then that I would 
 sign it, but I do not know where I signed it. 
 
 Ques. But did you not any you met him iu the executive com- 
 mittee room? 
 
187 
 
 Ans. It may have been there or in his office. 
 
 Ques. Is your memory so indistinct that you do not remember or 
 kuow where you met him, and yet you are distinct as to the hour? 
 
 Ans. Ye?, I know from the reasons given that it must have been 
 after a certain hour I signed it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say that you met him in the executive rooms ? 
 
 Ans. There or in his office. ♦ 
 
 Ques. Was that thQ first time that Mr. Pugsley had spoken to you 
 about having this contract signed — after you were up in Fredericton 
 — take that week for instance ? 
 
 Aus. You mean the weei: after the Order-in-Council, do you? 
 
 Ques. I think that you told me that you asked him about it, and he 
 ■•aid he had sent it to Fredericton, and that he had been trying to find 
 the Attorney to send it back ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And from that time till he came in and said that he had it, 
 and that you would send it — had he spoken to you on the subject ? 
 
 Ans. I think probably he may have done so. I know I met him 
 very little. I was away out in the county at Musquash, St. Martins and 
 other parts of the county, and had not met him very often. 
 
 Ques. You never saw Murrt^y about this contract at all? 
 
 Aus. No. 
 
 Ques. He never spoke to you about it? 
 
 Ans. I think Murray one day on the street talked to me to know 
 if the Government would givo any further subsidy. 
 
 Ques. When was that? 
 
 Ans. I do not know, it was sometime after the Order-in-Council 
 had been passed for the $2600. 
 
 (Jues. How long afterwards do you know ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot tell you how long afterwards. 
 
 Ques. Yes, what did you tell him? 
 
 Ans. I stated I would do all I could to get the subsidy increased 
 but that I did not know what the Government would do, but that 
 nothing could be done until the House met and see what the friends of 
 the Government thought about it. 
 
 Ques. Then among Leary's friends or the friends of the dock as 
 you term it, there was a very strong desire that the contract should bo 
 signed, was there not? 
 
 Ans. They were all interested, yes. Yes, there was a strong 
 feeling shown. 
 
 idk 
 
188 
 
 Ques. And a very strong desire that the Government influence 
 should be given to secure more aid, was there not? 
 
 Ans. That we would influence the Government. 
 
 Ques. But you were in the Government yourself? 
 
 Ans. There was the Attorney General and the other members of 
 the Government to be considered, and I always said I would use my 
 influence with the Government for that end. 
 
 Ques. The friends of Leary or the friends of the dock were very 
 desirous that the Government influence should go to get more aid, were 
 they not? Ans. I should presume so, 
 
 Ques. Did you not also tell them if the Government was supported 
 that you were satisfied that the Government influence would go that 
 way. Did you not give those gentlemen to understand that? 
 
 Ans. I do not think I went so strongly as that. I know I used all 
 the persuasive powers I possessed but I did not go that far ; but at the 
 same time I don't think I went far enough to pledge the Governraeut 
 at all and I always said I would use my influence to get further aid 
 from the Government. 
 
 Ques. Did you not also tell them that you were satisfied in your 
 own miud and as far as you yourself was concerned, that the Govern- 
 ment, if supported, would be favorably inclined to give more aid ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know I went so far as that. I told them that there 
 was a strong chance. I do not know that I told them tbat I was satis- 
 fied in my own mind about it ; but I said I thought there was a strong 
 chance, if the Government was returned, of there being additional aid 
 given if possible. 
 
 Ques. Was it to the extent of $7500 or not less than $7500 that 
 you mentioned to them? 
 
 Ans. I never mentioned any amount that would be given. 
 
 Ques. Did Mr. Pugsley tell you that he wanted to do all he could 
 to get this contract, too ? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Pugsley was working with me in the interests of St. John 
 to secure aid for this dry dock, and we talked it over in that way. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you he would do all he could to get this contract 
 for St. John docks for Leary ? 
 
 Ans. Yes; he told everybody about St. John that publicly and 
 privately, so far as I know. 
 
 Ques. He seemed to take more interest than anybody else about 
 the dock? 
 
189 
 
 t influence 
 
 nembers of 
 J Id use my 
 
 were very 
 3 aid, were 
 
 supported 
 ild go that 
 
 I used all 
 
 but at the 
 
 Dverniueut 
 
 further aid 
 
 d in your 
 e Goveru- 
 
 3 aid ? 
 that there 
 was satis- 
 ,s a strong 
 itional aid 
 
 7500 that 
 
 he could 
 
 f St. John 
 way. 
 8 contract 
 
 ilicly and 
 
 Ise about 
 
 Ans. He took a good deal of interest, and there was quite a uunaber 
 of people took a very active interest in it. 
 
 Ques. You would be able to tell me, perhaps, did he uige upon 
 you the importance of having this contract signed that week ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not think I could say "yes" to that question, I 
 told him when I gave the Mayor that letter, that nny time they came 
 with the contract, I was prepared to sign it. 
 
 Ques. You did not say — you said when the Attorney approved of 
 it? 
 
 Ans. Of course I always had the Attorney's sanction to give that 
 letter, and the only question was for him to approve of the document 
 that was drawn up. I had authority to sign the contract. 
 
 Ques. Are you prepared to say that Mr. Pugsley did not urge 
 upon you the importance of having this contract signed during the 
 elections — in that week? 
 
 Ans. No more than any one else ? 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you he would go and try to find Mr. Blair, 
 and that he went to find him ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that he did tell me that. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that he did go up and found Mr. Blair? 
 
 Ans. When he came back he told me. He told me the day he came 
 for me to sign the contract. 
 
 Ques. He told you, did he, about sending money into York? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You never knew a thing of that until when? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that I heard ot it until I heard that Murphy 
 or Mr. Gunter swore to it. (Mr. Pugsley — I never sent money to 
 York).. 
 
 Ques. What he did with that contract, you do not know ? 
 
 Ans. No. When I say I do not know, I might say that I after- 
 wards saw the contract in office here. 
 
 Ques. What he did with it between that time, in the elections, you 
 do not know ? Ans. No. 
 ' Ques. Whether delivered to Murray or not, you do not know ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How he managed to get this money to send here, you do not 
 know, do your 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know he sent any money. Mr. Kelly ex- 
 plained about the money; I beard what he explained and it was 
 
190 
 
 astonishing to me. I lieard Kelly say he and his friends were going to 
 look after the Attorney General for the action he had taken in the 
 Ritchie appointment. 
 
 Qnes. You were surprised when you found it came to York? 
 
 Aus. No, I was not surprised. The natural Cteusequence was that 
 they thinking so much of the Attorney General and his action in that 
 matter, that they sent the money down here. 
 
 Ques. You supposed that it was the way it was done? 
 
 Aus. I supposed it was from the friends of the Attorney General 
 down there. 
 
 Ques. Do you know or not that there was a large election fund 
 raised before that — before the 17th? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not know of a dollar being paid for our election ex- 
 l>enses except what I paid myself. 
 
 Ques. Thou you had nothing to do with the funds? Aus. No. 
 
 Ques. Is Mr. Carvill a gentleman of large means? 
 
 Ans. He is reported to be. I do not know he is really. 
 
 Ques. He was one of the candidates in support of the Government, 
 was he not? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You were not surprised that Kelly would not let it be paid 
 over until he had got it back from Carvill ? 
 
 Ans. 1 am not surprised at many things uow-a-days. 
 
 Ques. But were you surprised or not? 
 
 Ans. No, because Kelly was to be recouped, as he said he was, and 
 it was natural he wanted to see if the money was coming back. You 
 see he might have been fooled before and did not want to be again. 
 You know there are such things in elections. 
 
 QueSn Then you were not surprised at it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then you were rather surprised to find that the money was 
 to be given to the Attorney General to come down and make a speech 
 because 
 
 Ans. It appears it wa jot given to the Attorney General. 
 
 Ques. Y''ou heard the Attorney General giving us his own state- 
 ment, did you uot? 
 
 Ans. I am not surprised at the way you put it, but I don't know 
 that he got the money. 
 
 Ques. You said that the friends of Leary spoke to you and urged 
 you, I think that is the word — now was Mr. Kelly one of Miose and 
 who else was one ? .. . , • , , .; 
 
191 
 
 re going to 
 kon in the 
 
 )rk? 
 
 5e was that 
 
 ion in that 
 
 3y General 
 ction fund 
 ilectiou ex- 
 s. No. 
 
 tvernmeut, 
 it be paid 
 
 3 was, and 
 
 ick. You 
 
 be again. 
 
 loney was 
 Q a speech 
 
 »wn state- 
 
 « 
 
 on't know 
 
 md urged 
 hose and 
 
 Aus. I do not remember whether Kelly ever spoke to me on the 
 question. You asked me a question a few minutes ago and I then 
 went on to make an explanation which I had in my mind ever since. 
 You asked me if Murray had said anything about signing the contract. 
 I was then going on to explain that I had met Murray some where on 
 the street and he asked n.e if the Government was going to make the 
 contract with Leary, and I told him I had no word of it at all. That I 
 think was previous to the letter sent to Mr. Lockhart, the Mayor, 
 and after I had sent that letter 1 met him one day and he says : "You 
 have given the Mayor a letter saying you are ready to sign the con- 
 tract at any time," and I said that was all right, and he said I am satis- 
 lied that Mr. Leary will cuter into the contract at once. 
 
 Ques. Had he not applied for the contract? Ans. Yes, he had. 
 
 Qucs. But he was waiting for your couscnt ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And th.u why did he say Leary was ready to enter into the 
 contract at any time, at once I think you said? 
 
 Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Did you not say that you used your influence to get ad- 
 ditional subsidy, to Murray I mean? 
 
 Aus. I did to Murray and to everybody else I met. I said I would 
 use my influence. 
 
 Quea. You did tell Murray that in this conversation? 
 
 Ans. I say I may have told Murray. I told everybody I met that 
 I would use my influence to get additional subsidy. 
 
 Ques. Is your memory so bad that 3'ou cannot remember whether 
 you told him that or not ? 
 
 Ans. I may have told Murray of that. 
 
 Ques. But do you remember whether you did or not? 
 
 Ans. I cannot remember whether I told INIurray or not. I usually 
 did tell everyone I spoke to on the subject that I would do so. 
 
 Ques. Then do you know or do you not, that you told Kelly so? 
 
 Ans. I may have done so. I will not swear I did not. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear yeu did not? 
 
 Ans. I say that I do not remember whether I did or not. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did? 
 
 Aus. If I thought I told them so, why I would say so, and say that 
 I did it, but I am not sure I did tell them so. 
 
 Ques. Was not Kelly one of the men who urged you to do this? 
 
 Aus. When you come to put the word " urged" in, the only time 
 
199 
 
 I heard Kelly urge the coutract should be given to Leary was in the 
 Council. I think, too, that the uext day after the Council meeting 
 here he said : *' Do you think you folks can give Leary the contract?' 
 And I think he said something about it another day, when I met him 
 in St. John. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that he mentioned it to you in the week 
 immediately preceding the election ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think he did. To tell the truth, I did not have much 
 conversation with Kelly at all. Whenever I met him around the com- 
 mittee rooms I had very little conver.«ation with him. 
 
 Ques. He was around the committee rooms then ? 
 
 Ans. I think he was around the committee rooms. 
 
 Ques. And was known as a supporter of the Government and of 
 yourself? 
 
 Ans. He was there and he said so, and I supposed he was honest 
 about it and Avas working in the interests of the party. 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell him and others that it was an important 
 thing, and that it was consequent upon the Government having suf- 
 ticient members in the house to support the additional sum wanted? 
 
 Ans. No, I never put it so strongly as that. 
 
 Ques. How strongly did you put it in that direction? 
 
 Ans. I think I told you a while ago that if the Government were 
 supported well, that probably they might do something for them, but 
 to say that it depended upon the election, is not right, because I do not 
 think it depended entirely upon 'our election; there was the other 
 portions of the country to be considered. 
 
 Ques. But if the Government were supported well it would help 
 them? Ans, That would throughout the outside counties as well. 
 
 Ques. You did not know where the money came from that came 
 hero — you did not know that at all individually, did you ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Stackhousea very active man in favor of the dock? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he seemed to be very much interested in the dry dock. 
 
 Ques. He is a contractor — a man who builds ships and wharves? 
 
 Ans. I think he has been a ship builder. 
 
 Ques. And a wharf builder? 
 
 Ans. I think likely he has done some wharf building. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Quinton anxious for this too ? 
 
 Ans. Just the same as I was. He felt that it would benefit St. John, 
 and that it would benefit our election. The reason why was tbisi 
 
193 
 
 The report went out that the Government did not intend doing any- 
 thing, and the members of the Common Council, who were friendly to 
 the scheme, wanted to know if we were fooling them, and so we lost a 
 good many votes. 
 
 Ques. And that report was pretty current, was it? 
 
 Ans. Yes, very current, and it did not do us much good. Carleton 
 went against us. 
 
 Ques. If I understand you rightly, there was a considerable feeling 
 that the Government were fooling, or in other words, were not sin- 
 cere? 
 
 Ans. There was a report current to that effect. 
 
 Ques. The opposition on the one side would report against it, and 
 on the other side our friend Mr. Pugsley would say something else ? 
 
 Ans. He might want to offset the statements of the opposition 
 members. He might face one but not the whole of them. 
 
 Ques. There was a strong feeling that the Government were not 
 iiincere and did not intend to give the coutract ? 
 
 Ans. There was talk of that kind. 
 
 Qnes. And it became necessary and very important to assure the 
 people that the Government did intend to give the contract ? 
 
 Ans. It became very important to us down there, but when you 
 ask that question, then iu another way it did not become important 
 because if we had made no talk about it at all, it would have been 
 better for us. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know who sent for that telegram ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. ftid not Mr. Pugsley tell you it was written in his 
 (Pugsley's) office? 
 
 Ans. The telegram I received iu the Institute ? 
 
 Ques. That they sent to Leary to send forward and that they 
 received ? 
 
 Ans. The telegram I got from Leary, and the only one I know 
 of, was handed to me by a boy from the telegraph office and I opened 
 it and read it and I believed it to be genuine then and I do so now. 
 
 Ques. Did uot Mr. Pugsley tell ycu at some time or other that he 
 had sent for it ? Ans. No, he never told me he sent for it. 
 
 Ques. It became important, did it not, to help the Government 
 party election that the contract question should be set at rest ? 
 
 Ans. I have just said that it did not become important because it 
 bad DO importance whatever. It did not amount to anything. 
 13 
 
194 
 
 Ques, Was it not then so considered ? 
 
 Ads. It was by some of the Aldermen or men interested in the dry 
 dock. They thought it would be a vei'y good thing. 
 
 Ques. Which of the Aldermen was i* who so considered it. Was 
 Kelly one, Connor another and McGoldrick another? 
 
 Ans. I thought all the Aldermen were pretty much that way, and 
 thought Stackhouse talked that way too. 
 
 Quos. Did they not put it that it was important for the Goreru- 
 ment in the elections? 
 
 Ans. They thought that the stories that were going round would 
 
 hurt us. 
 
 Ques. And that if the Government would not sign the contract that 
 
 they would not support their ticket ? Ans. No, I did not hear that. 
 
 Ques. Did not Alderman Connor say this : "Aid. Connor assured 
 the Board that Mr. Leary had in bis possession a contract bearing the 
 seal of this Province and giving him the $2500 subsidy granted under the 
 Act of Assembly of 1882. It was for this reason that he had supported 
 the Local Government in the recent election. But for the Government's 
 action in this respect he would have worked for the opposition ticket."' 
 
 Ans. He never told me anything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Did not Kelly and Connor both give the friends of the 
 Government to understand that unless that contract was signed they 
 would not support them ? 
 
 Ans. They never told me that nor anything of the kind and I 
 never knew that statement you have read was made. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand that these men would" not sup- 
 port the Government unless that contract was signed. Did they so 
 give you to understand ? Ans. No, they did not. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that it was hurting the Government ? 
 
 Ans. All I understood was that that the reports were going 
 about. There was a statement in one of the morning papers that 
 the contract would not be signed and that the Government was 
 not aiiicere and other talk of that kind, and they said that would 
 injure us, that was all. They never said they would not support us. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand that they would not support you 
 unless the contract was signed ? 
 
 Ans. I never understood anything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Did not Quinton tell you se? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And he took an active part in the electien did he not? 
 
m 
 
 Ana. Yes, so far as I koow^ he did. 
 
 Ques. And Kelly said it was men of bis own class who had sab- 
 scribed this money. Did Mr. Qainton hold the same religions views as 
 Kelly did? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You heard Kelly swear that Quinton raised a large part of 
 the money that came to Fredericton ? 
 
 Ans. I heard him say that he had received $200 from him. 
 
 Ques. I think Mr. Quinton personally is a very strong friend of 
 yours, is he not ? Ans. I think so. 
 
 Ques. Whether he bad anything to do with raising money for 
 election purposes, you do not know.? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not know. I presume he put into the pool with all 
 the rest of the candidates the same as we usually have to do. 
 
 Ques. He told you so, did he ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. This contract ca^e back then from Fredericton. Did you sign 
 two copies down in St. John or only one ? 
 
 Ans. I think only one. 
 
 Ques, That one was signed for Leary or some one for him ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is the one I have reference to of giving to the Solicitor. 
 
 Ques. That would be for Leary, that copy, would it not ? 
 
 Ans. I presume so. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure you did not sign two — are you not sure ? 
 
 Ani. I do not remember of signing two. I remember very distinctly 
 of signing the contract but whether I signed the second one in St. 
 John, I am not sure. 
 
 Ques. Or whether Leary's name was to it at all you are not sure or 
 whether he signed before or after you, that is the one by his attorney ? 
 
 Ans. I am under the impression that that was there when I signed 
 the contract. 
 
 Ques. Your memory does not help you as to whether or not you 
 then signed the two ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Does your memory serve you as to reading it over ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I read it over. 
 
 Ques. Was it in print or written ? Ans. I could not say. 
 
 Ques. And while your memory is poor as to all those things, yet you 
 can tell me the hour at which you signed it ? 
 
 Ans. I gave you my reasons for remembering the hour and I 
 remember that I was to go to Garleton on that day and I did not get 
 back in time to go. 
 
 Ques. That is your only reason ? 
 
\H 
 
 Ads. That is sufficient reasoD for me for rememberiDg it could not 
 be before 4 o'clock. 
 
 Qnes. I thought you told me that you were all day or nearly all 
 lay around the executive rooms ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was in there, in and out for two or three days, around the 
 rooms the greater part of the time. 
 
 Ques. You know since you were examined before tea, has it occurred 
 to you or was it in your mind at all, the time that Murphy leit Fred- 
 ericton. He swore he left Fredericton by the four o'clock train? 
 
 Ans. 1 do not know when he left Fredericton. 
 
 Ques. Have you rend what he swore or not ? 
 
 Ans. No, I have not read the evidence since it has been published 
 in this case. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear him swear that? 
 
 Ans. I heard a portion of Murphy's evidence that is all. I did not 
 hear him say when be left Fredericton. 
 
 Ques. You heard that he had said that he left in the afternoon ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not remember hearing as to that. I do not remember 
 what time he left at all. 
 
 Ques. Yon know he said he got down that night ? 
 
 Ans. No, I do not know he said so because I did not hear him. 
 
 Ques. Do you know when Mr. Pugsley came to you that he said he 
 wanted it signed in the morning or afternoon or when. Was it in the 
 afternoon or forenoon he came to you first ? 
 
 Ans. It was before I signed it. 
 
 Ques. Was it before or after dinner ? 
 
 Ans. I think .c was somewhere about noon time, 
 
 Ques. Are you not sure ? 
 
 Ans. I am pretty sure it was about noon time, that is as sure as I 
 can be about it. 
 
 Ques. How did you come to tell us this morning it was in the forenoon? 
 
 Ans. I said it was in the morning that I came to town, about ten 
 o'clock, and it was between that and lunch time I met Mr. Pugsley and 
 he told me he had the contract, and I said I would sign it if he brought 
 it to me. I did not then see Mr. Pugsley again after we then separated 
 until 1 came back from Mr. Holly's. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure you did not sign it the first time when he said 
 he had it? Ans. I am sure that I did not then sign it. 
 
 Ques. Then what time in the afternoon was it or the forenoon 
 that took place? ,> • -»».'<:" ; • 
 
m 
 
 Ans. I ba^e told yoo two or three times it was somewhere about 
 the DooD hour. 
 
 Ques. Then you told him you would sign directly he brought it, did 
 you ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. So that it was positive that it would be signed and that it 
 was only necessary for him to bring it to you and you would sign it? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And it was signed you think in the esecutire committee 
 room ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. There was no secret about it? 
 
 Ans. I do not know thei ? was any secrecy about it. I know I read 
 it over and signed it. 
 
 Ques. He had it ready, he said, and of course he wanted your aesent 
 to signing it and you then gave your assent and said you would sign i*', 
 then it was publicly known? 
 
 Ans. I do not know it was publicly known. 
 
 Ques. You have said there was no secret made of it ? 
 
 Aus. I do not know there was any secrecy about it or not. 
 
 Ques. However, alter he had seen you he could say lie bad been 
 authorized to say it would be signed ? 
 
 Ans. T do not know about that. 
 
 Ques. He had your word you would sign it? 
 
 Ans. He had my word, it was only my word, and when I gave the 
 letter it was only my word that the whole city had. 
 
 Ques. And there was a strong feeling that the Government were 
 fooling, was there not ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, it was so reported in the papers. 
 
 Ques. And that the Government were not sincere, and would not 
 give the contract? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then Mr. Pugsley went and saw the Attorney General, and 
 did see him, and he told you so, did he not ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know he told me ; but he told me that the contract 
 was done. 
 
 Ques. He told you that he had the contract ready to be si^ oed ? 
 
 Ans. He told me he had the contract, and then I told him I would 
 sign it at any time he would bring it to me. 
 
 Ques. And did you not expect that he would bring it to you that 
 day? 
 
 Ans. I did not have any expectations about it, or beyond what he 
 Baid. >-f-.- - •" '^,-Y'' "'■■■-' -:■ ■- '--^ ■?,''' 
 
198 
 
 Qnes. It was thoroughly settled betweeu you and him that it was to 
 be signed on that day, whenever he brought it ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was prepared to sign it if he brought it that day. 
 
 Ques. If he had your positive word that yon would sign it whenever 
 you had it brought to you then 
 
 Ans. Yes, he had ray word. 
 
 Ques. Who was acting for Leary then ? Ans, I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Did you or did you not know that he had then arranged 
 to send the money up here then ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know yet. 
 
 Ques. You do not know that he had arranged the night before to 
 send to Barry word by telephone that he was to expect a messenger, 
 and giving him to understand it was with money? 
 
 Ans. No. I never heard that till here. 
 
 Ques. You do not know that he had told the Attorney General the 
 night before that the friends were going to send money to York ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And you do not know the condition that that money came 
 up here to be delivered under? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not know there was any money to be sent up here 
 and did not know there was any condition attached to it till here. 
 
 Ques. You do not know anything about the boodle here ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Cross-examined by Mr. Pugsley : 
 
 Ques. Mr. Haningtou asked you this morning as to when I first 
 told you that I had the contract ready and that you said you were ready 
 to sign it at any time. Now I will ask you whether from the third day of 
 January you were not ready to sign that contract, that is after the date 
 of the letter that you wrote to the Mayor and which was published in 
 the papers, whether you were not always ready from that time to sign 
 the contract whenever it was presented to you for signature ? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember the date of the letter. 
 
 Ques. The letter is dr.ted January 3rd and is as follows (reads 
 letter). That letter was written by you to the Mayor? 
 
 Ans. That is the date of the paper and I presume it is correct. I 
 would like to explain how that letter camo to be sent. I was sick in 
 the house at the time and Mayor Lockhart came over. He said be 
 
199 
 
 thouglvi it would be advisable and better to have some letter or some- 
 thing as the Order-in-Council had passed authorizing the Governor 
 ill-Council to enter into a contract with Leary., that they should have 
 ^ome acknowledgment that the contract would he given to Leary and 
 he wanted something official that he could show to the Council, and I 
 told him that before giving him a letter that I would like to communi- 
 cate with the Attorney General , I then telephoned the Attorney telling 
 him the Mayor was then in my house and that he wanted me to give 
 him a letter to the effect that the Government were willing to enter 
 into a contract with Leary according to the terms of the Order-in- 
 Council. The Attorney then telephoned me back that it was all right 
 that he had no objection. The letter was written right away there and 
 given to Mr. Lockhart who took it to town with him. 
 
 Ques. Is that all the conversation that took place between you and 
 the Attorney General between that time and the time the Order-in- 
 Council was passed? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember seeing the Attorney General or talking to 
 him anything about this except that he was to come down and deliver 
 ;m address in the Institute. 
 
 Ques. And on the day that you telephoned him you have given 
 ill the conversation you then had with him? 
 
 Ans. That was the conversation in regard to this matter. 
 
 Ques. At the time you telephoned to the Attorney General that 
 the Mayor was there, how long afterwards was it that the Attorney 
 General telephoned you giving his consent? 
 
 Ans. Right away. I did not leave the telephone. Ho talked to me 
 right away. 
 
 Ques. From that time did you ever, publicly or privately, give any- 
 one to understand that there was no question but that the contract 
 would be given to Leary when it was ready for signature ? 
 
 Ans. No, for having written that letter I felt that the Government 
 was bound to enter into the contract. 
 
 Ques. The Order-in-Council was passed on the 30th December. 
 
 Ans. I do not remember the date. I have not looked at a paper 
 ill connection with the matter since it came up. 
 
 Ques. And on the 31st December you wrote this letter to the 
 Mayor of St. John (reads letter of 31st December)? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 (^ues. Now with regard to your using your influence to secure 
 
 ■■BK-WCTMg- 
 
200 
 
 further aid, I will ask you whether you did not both publicly aud 
 privately, from the public platform and iu your conversation witli 
 everybody, state that you were prepared to use your influence and 
 best efforts to induce tfie Government to recommend a further grant ? 
 
 Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. You made no secret of that OQ any occasion, did you? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. With regard to this contract itself — when you read it over, 
 when I presented it to you for signature — were you of the opinion 
 that the public interest was in every respect carefully guarded ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you say in your opinion the public interest in every 
 particular was carefully guarded by that contract ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I felt so. 
 
 Ques. I will ask whether you did not hear me on the public plat- 
 form frequently state that I also was prepared to use my best efforts iu 
 urging the Government to recommend to the Legislature additional 
 assistance ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. Did not both you and myself state that we were expressing 
 our own views, but that the Government were in no way committed to 
 the granting of additional aid r 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was the general understanding with our friends aud 
 everybody that we were only pledging our own individual views, as 
 you say. 
 
 Ques. Were not your public aud private views and statements iu 
 respect to that to the same effect ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You have stated that on the day the contract was signed you 
 were pretty busy with various matters, but you are quite sure for the 
 reasons given that the contract was not signed until after four o'clock? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I feel quite positive on that point. 
 
 Ques. I will ask you, whether you ever knew of there being any 
 arrangement or understanding of any kind whatever with Mr. Leary or 
 with any person on Leary's behalf, that he was to receive this contract 
 for the dry dock in consideration of his contributing toward the 
 Provincial election ? 
 
 Ans. There was never any arrangement made by me. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever know of any ? 
 
 Ans. No, never knew of any arrangement being made. 
 
 Ques. My brother's name was spoken of — you understood he had 
 
201 
 
 m every 
 
 been ill in Boston for aoivi four or firo weeks and was not in St. John 
 at all during tbo election — was lie ? 
 
 Ans. The reason I have for believing that is because I was con- 
 uected with him in some other matters and kept inquiring for him 
 every day or so and found he was still in Boston. I know I telephoned 
 to his hoMse from my house many times to knew if be was back and 
 when coming back, and I was satisfied from what I learned that he was 
 ia Boston sick. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember whether or not I mentioned to you that I 
 had explained the terms of the contract to the Attorney General when 
 I went to you to get you to sign the contract, do you remember that 
 I stated then that I had explained the general terms of the contract 
 and its provisions and that he had approved of it ? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember. I , -derstood from you that the cou- 
 tract was satisfactory to the Attorney General. 
 Ques. Were you present nomination day? 
 Ans. Part of the time. I was not there during the whole time. 
 Ques. You were ill that day? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You stated that a great deal of talk was going around that 
 the Government were not sincere and did not intend to give Leary the 
 contract. Now was not that principally heard from the opposition? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that I heard that principally from the opposi- 
 tion ; I heard it from the people generally, I thought then a good many 
 people who were our friends, who I find are not now. 
 
 Ques. You read the speech made by Alderman Smith as it appear- 
 ed in the " ^un" of January 14th, 1890, did you, as follows : " Now 
 the Government boasted that they were going to expend a million 
 dollars in our harbor. This Government, which were too poor to 
 make the grant for Rodney wharf, now talked about the expenditure 
 of a million dollars here. They must have struck u gold mine some- 
 where. (Cheers). The people should take no stock in this canvass. 
 He did not believe the $2500 subsidy would be given to Mr. Leary, 
 because when the Mayor and a committee of the Common Council 
 went to Fredericton to urge a further grant upon the Government, 
 they got very little encouragement. The Government had not then 
 decided as to whom the subsidy should be paid. The last Royal 
 Gazette announced that a charter had been granted to another com- 
 pany, which was organized for the purpose of building a dry dock in 
 St. John. Who composed tLa company? Well » there were among 
 
202 
 
 others Mr. Van Slooten, a man without a dollar of capital, and John 
 H. Pai'ks, a candidate of this election. (Laughter). Why did the 
 Government, after Mr. Leary had gone so far, grant a charter to a new 
 company? It seemed strange that Mr. Parks should be one of this 
 company and a candidate in this City just at the same time." Did 
 you notice those remarks of Mr. Smith ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know I did. 1 think I was sick at the time. I 
 know I went home sick from the nomination proceedings and was laid 
 up a day or two. I do not know whether I read those papers. 
 
 Ques. You say you knew that statements of that character were 
 being circulated about the city ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques, And you say it was telt important to set the public mind at 
 rest so far as that was concerned f 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was the idea ; we had to get all the votes that we 
 could. 
 
 He-examined b>/ Mr. Hanington . 
 
 Ques. Then it was perfectly clear that there was a strong feeling, 
 whether it came from the opposition or not, that the Government were 
 not sincere and the proof of it would be the signing of the contract? 
 
 Ans. I do not know that there was a strong feeling but there w^'s 
 a good many reports of that kind going around. I do not think that the' 
 people who circulated those reports th?mselves believed all that they 
 said. 
 
 Ques. Then it became very important, did it not, that the contract 
 or some paper should be signed so that you could say, there is the con- 
 tract signed ? Ans. I do not know it became very important. 
 
 Ques. It became important when you wanted funds for the election 
 to show to the men in favor of the dock that it was all right? 
 
 Ans. I think they wanted to get votes. 
 
 Ques. And it was necessary that the contract should be sure ; 
 that it was all right, was it not? 
 
 Ans. No, ray idea was that those report-i were being circulated fincl 
 had a tendency to injure us in our election and consequently we had to 
 offset that and to show that we would carry out our promises to the 
 people, and by that letter of 3rd January written to the Mayor, it was 
 our honest intention to deal with Mr. Leary just as we stated we 
 would deal with him. ' 
 
 
203 
 
 
 Ques. And odo way to do that was to hare the contract siguei? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think that would be one of the things, and when it 
 was readv I signed it. 
 
 Ques. Then it was most important to encourage your friends with 
 the probability of success and to work out your side of it that they 
 should be assured that the Government would sign the contract? 
 
 Ans. Well, it would look that way. 
 
 Ques. There is no doubt about it, is there ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know whether there is any doubt about it ; I say it 
 would look that way. If our opponents were circulating reports which 
 they themselves, or many among them, did not themselves believe to 
 be true, and then to shew we were sincere, I thought it would only be 
 right to shew to offset those reports that we were sincere. 
 
 Ques. By signing the contract — now is not that it? 
 
 Ans. I was ready to sign it any time after the third of January. 
 
 Ques. To shew you were sincere, and as an offset to the reports 
 made and to assure your friends, you then signed the contract ? 
 
 Ans. We wanted to satisfy the minds of eur friends that we meant 
 business. 
 
 Ques. And therefore if you had not assured your friends in some 
 way they would not help you in your elections ? 
 
 Ans. I never heard that. 
 
 Ques. With whom had it weakened you? 
 
 Ques. I do not know it had weakened us. 
 
 Ques. But so long as there was any doubt about it, was it not 
 weakening you with the people who wanted the dock ? 
 
 Ans. It may or may not have been so. 
 
 Ques. What other impression would the people hare got but that 
 you were insincere if you would not sign the contract ? 
 
 Ans. You might draw that inference. 
 
 Ques. But is not that the inevitable inference ? 
 
 Ans. No, you could not make it sure, because there were lots of 
 people who did not want the dock, and I think if we had not guaran- 
 teed the dock, there were many votes we would have got. 
 
 Ques. You did it to satisfy your friends, did you not, that is those 
 in favor of the dock ? 
 
 Ans. We had told our friends and the friends of the dock, as I say, 
 that we were in favor of the dock, and they wanted some assurance 
 that we were sincere when those reports went around that wo were not. 
 
204 
 
 Ques. Then as I say to satisfy your frieDds that were requited to 
 to be satisfied — that is your active friends in the election — you bad 
 told the people you were in earnest ? 
 
 Ads. Yes, and our friends interasted in our election said that they 
 had told certain electors, wherever they were, that they were going 
 to have that dry dock, and they said if you do not give them some 
 assurauce they will feel you are not sincere. 
 
 Ques. Then to satisfy those who had told others what you have 
 said, that you were sincere, you signed the contract, is that it? 
 
 Ans. I say that our own friends and many others who would like 
 to see the dock carried on, were being informed of those reports, and 
 as a consequence, would like an assurance it was to be carried on. 
 
 Ques. But the class of persons they wished to influence, were they 
 especially interested in this dock? 
 
 Ans. I do not kuoAV they were especially interested in the dock- 
 contract ; they were interested from citizens standpoint. 
 
 Ques. And they would be interested in having it granted, I pre- 
 sume? Ans. They were of course. 
 
 Ques. Then the signing of the contract, when you agreed to sign 
 it, would have an important bearing as you then thought on the 
 election, would it not? 
 
 Ans. I think if it had an important bearing, it would have been 
 better to have signed it three or four weeks before. 
 
 Ques. Did you not think on that day when you told him you would 
 sign it — did you not then think it would have an important bearing on 
 the election ? 
 
 Ans. To tell you the truth, I did not think it would be of much 
 importance to have it signed. 
 
 Ques. Then why sign it, without the seal of the Province, when it 
 was brought to you to sign ? 
 
 Ans. Mr. Pugsley may have thought it. I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from that it was important. You 
 have already sworn you did not think it important, and now what do 
 you say as to what you understood from him ? 
 
 Ans. I say I did not think it was so important towards our election, 
 because of the result, and I do not think it had a good result. 
 
 Ques. Did you think it was important then ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't know I ever thought It was important — very 
 important. ; , i . \ • . 
 
 I- 
 
205 
 
 Ques. Did you think it was of ftny importaace whatever? 
 
 Adb. It might have been. I could not tell you just what I told 
 him or he told me then. I was in a great hurry, and signed it and 
 banded it back to him. 
 
 Qucs. Then you have no idea whether you thought it was of great 
 importance or not? 
 
 Ans. I knew it was of some importance, but I never attached that 
 importance to it that other people did. 
 
 Qi;es. Did you attach as much imp'-rtance to it as you understood 
 Mr. Pugsley to attach to it? 
 
 Ans. I do not know how much he attached to it. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand from Mr. Pugsley that he thought 
 it important? 
 
 Ans. I do not think be said anything to me at the time he came 
 for me to sign it as to that. 
 
 Ques. Does not that Order-in-Council state that they are ready to 
 give the contract on sufficient evider ce of their financial ability to 
 complete the same was furnished. Now tell me, between that 31st 
 December and the date of the contract, did Leary furnish you or your 
 Government with any evidence of his financial ability to complete that 
 contract, and if so, when and what? 
 
 Ans. I think there was a statement made by some one who inquired 
 into Leary's position and it was stated that he had plant, steam boats 
 and property of that kind for the purpose of doing general public work, 
 such as dry dock building, building wharves and so on, to the extent of 
 over half a naillion of dollars, and also a statement from the bankers in 
 New York that he could command at any time, any where in the 
 neighborhood of a million dollars. 
 
 Ques. Was that information furnished to the Government after the 
 30th December or was it furnished to the Government at all ? 
 
 Aus. I think it was furnished to the Government. 
 
 Ques. By whom? Ans. By Mr. Connor, I think. 
 
 Ques. That is the Alderman in St. John? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. When was it furnished to the Government? 
 
 Ans. The night that they came up here on the delegation. 
 
 Ques. The fourteenth of December ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I think he then made that statement. 
 Ques. Was there any statement except that of Connor which he 
 made to the Government en the fourteenth? " " ' ' " 
 
206 
 
 Ads. No, not to the Government. I had some inforoiation from a 
 gentleman whom I met who pretended to know. 
 
 Ques. When had you that information? 
 
 Ans. Some time afterwards. 
 
 Ques. When ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot tell you the date of it. It was some time after the 
 30th December. 
 
 Ques. Who was it from ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot just tell you who it was from, 
 
 Ques. Then the evidence of their financial ability to complete the 
 same was not furnished to the Government, but a gentleman told you 
 whose name you forget? Ans. I do not forget it. 
 
 Ques. Tell me who it was? 
 
 Ans. I do not think it necessary for me to say because this infor- 
 mation was given from a private quarter and it was not to be used 
 publicly, 
 
 Ques. Was he in St. John? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. A New York man? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. A partner of Leary's ? 
 
 Ans. No, not so far as I know. I was introduced to the gentle- 
 man in New York. 
 
 Ques. When was it he told you that? 
 
 Ans. Sometime after the Order-in-Council passed. 
 
 Ques. After the writs were out for the election ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say whether it was after the writs were out or not. 
 
 Ques. Then the only evidence is that simply of the gentleman who 
 told you as to his financial ability. Had you any meeting of the Gov- 
 ernment from the time you had the information from the individual 
 whose name you cannot mention, until the contract was signed? 
 
 Ans. I am inclined to think we had. I would net swear positively 
 we did have but I do not know that we did have a meeting of the 
 Council after that till the election was over. I am not sure that we bad 
 a meeting between that time, but there might have been a meeting from 
 the time I met this gentleman. 
 
 Ques. I want to knew whether they had a meeting or not? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember of there being any meeting of the Council 
 from the time that order passed till the election. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that there was not any meeting of the 
 Council after the writs were issued ? * - t v, 
 
207 
 
 Q from a 
 
 after the 
 
 plele the 
 told you 
 
 this infoi- 
 to be used 
 
 the gentle- 
 
 out or not. 
 tlemau who 
 )f the Gov- 
 individual 
 
 aed? 
 
 r positively 
 ing of the 
 that we had 
 eeting from 
 
 lOt? 
 
 the Council 
 jting of the 
 
 Ans. I am inclined to think there was no meeting of the Council 
 after that. 
 
 Ques. Therefore, from the time you got that private information, 
 there was no meeting of the Council and you never had any opportunity 
 of considering whether that evidence was sufficient or not? 
 
 Ans. I do not think there was any lueeting of the Council and I 
 never told the Council. There was no evidence of his tiuaucial ability 
 furnished to the Government or submitted to the Government. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me why, except for that reason of necessity and 
 baste, why it was that the contract was signed without any evidence 
 being submitted to the Government or the plans or specifications. 
 Tell me any reason for it except urgency ? 
 
 Ans. I have told you the reason already. The statement went 
 broadcast, although we had passed that Order-in-Council that we did 
 not intend to enter into any contract with Leary or anybody else. 
 Then the Mayor came over and asked me for something to show, that 
 he might show the Council to satisfy them that this contract would 
 be entered into. I then telephoned the Attorney General and 
 he said it would be all right to give the Mayor such a letter as I talked 
 of through the telephone, and then I gave the Mayor that letter that I 
 have already referred to here and which the Committee has had before 
 them. That letter distinctly stated that whenever they were ready to 
 enter into a contract, I was ready to enter into a contract with them, 
 and the very first opportunity I had of signing that contract I signed 
 it, and I signed it for the reason that I had telephoned the Attorney 
 that the Mayor and Council wanted some definite answer about the 
 contract, and I therefore gave that letter and it was not because there 
 was any great urgency by anyone outside at all. They had asked tor 
 that letter which was given, and that is the reason. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley), Does not the contract specify that the 
 plans and specifications were to be approved by the Governor in 
 Council before the work was commenced ? 
 
 Ans. I asked the Solicitor when talking about the contract if the 
 plans and specifications were to be furnished and examined and ap- 
 proved of before we entered into the contract, and he said by the 
 terms of the contract that they could be approved of afterwards, and 
 therefore the contract would not take effect without the plans and 
 fipecificatioDS being approved of, and I thought that was sufficient 
 reason to sign the contract. ■ - - 
 
SOI 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Haniagton). Were not the City Council satisfied with 
 your letter? Ans. I presume they were. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me, except they got up the oanTass and — 
 
 Ads. Do you mean the City Council got up 'the canvass ? 
 
 Ques. I said that people got up a canvass insisting — after they 
 got that letter — tell me, if you will, why it was that that contract was 
 signed without any plans and speciiicntions being approved in Council, 
 or without the evidence of financial ability, except that they had made 
 that canvass ? 
 
 Ques. I told you I was satisfied that he had the financial ability, 
 and I was satisfied that the interests of the Province were well guarded 
 in the contract, as no money was to be paid until the work was com- 
 pleted, and that could not be done until the plans and specifications 
 were approved of. 
 
 Ques. Then why the haste of signing that contract tha*^^ day ? 
 
 Ans. Because it was brought to me and I had given my word to 
 sign it when ready for signature. 
 
 Ques. Brought by your own Solicitor General ? 
 
 Ans. Who else should bring it. 
 
 Ques. Leary did not bring it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor Murray did not bring it ? Ans. No, 
 
 Ques. Was it brought on behalf of Leary to you ? 
 
 Ans. I never asked on behalf of who it was brought. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand it was on behalf of Leary it came to 
 you to be signed ? 
 
 Ans. I understood that the Solicitor General brought it to me for 
 signature, no more. 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand it was on behalf of Leary, or on 
 whose behalf? 
 
 Ans. He did not say on whose behalf. 
 
 Ques. On whose behalf did you understand he brought it? 
 
 Ans. 1 did not understand it was on anybody's behalf. 
 
 Ques. Then you did not understand it was brought on Leary's 
 behalf when ho brought it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then did you understand it was on behalf of the Govern- 
 ment he brought it for signature ? 
 
 Ans. I say I do not know on whose behalf he brought it. 
 
 Ques. You did not know in whose interest it was brought, whether 
 in the interest of Leary or in the interest of the Government. You 
 
 ii 
 
 IM 
 
309 
 
 )d with 
 
 er they 
 •act was 
 [Council, 
 1(1 made 
 
 ability, 
 guarded 
 fas coin- 
 itications 
 
 word to 
 
 it came to 
 to me for 
 ;ary, or on 
 
 It? 
 
 )n Leary's 
 10 Govera- 
 
 It, whether 
 lent. You 
 
 do not know that the Solicitor Qeneral was acting for Leary, or do you ? 
 
 Ads. I do not know yet he was acting as Leary's agent then, and 
 do not know whether he is acting as bis agent now. 
 
 Ques. So far as you know whether brought by the Solicitor Gen< 
 era! for Leary or for the Government or for whom for signature, you 
 do not know? Ans. No, I do not know, 
 
 Ques. Did you not understand at that time who it was for ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not understand then and the question was never 
 asked. 
 
 Ques. You say that the canvass was very strong that you were not 
 gincere and that you wanted to meet it ? 
 
 Au8. I answered that question a good many times, still I will an- 
 swer it till two o'clock if you want it. 
 
 Ques. Has Mr. Pugsley told you since whether he was acting for 
 Leary or the Government or the Government ticket? 
 
 Ans. No, he has not told me since. 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you where the boodle came from ? 
 
 Ans. I would like to know where it went to. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). When I came to you with the contract you 
 assumed I was acting in my capacity as Solicitor General. 
 
 Ans, I do not know whether you were acting for Leary or on the 
 Government behalf, but I know that the Attorney had said that you 
 would draw the contract, and that being so, I asked one or two 
 questions about it to satisfy myself that the public interests were 
 guarded, and I did not bother more about it as I was very busy at the 
 time. 
 
 Ques. And you cleax'ly understood that before any work was done, 
 the plans and specifications were to be approved ? 
 
 Ans. That is one of the questions I asked about and you told mo 
 that was all right. 
 
 Ques, (Mr. Phinney). You considered it necessary that something 
 should be done to remove the impression prevailing that the Govern- 
 ment were not sincere ? 
 
 Ans. I said I explained that I thought we ought to satisfy our 
 friends and offset the stones being circulated. That letter was given to 
 the Mayor, and there was no other impression prevailing which required 
 me to do anything further than that, and I did not feel myself called 
 upon to do any more than carry out the terms of the letter which I did 
 when I signed the contract. It was not in consequence of the stories 
 14 
 
110 
 
 that were being circulated that I signed the contract, I did so iu oon- 
 sequonce of the letter I had written the Mayor and I did not considcr 
 that there was any difBculty in the way at all. I thought after giving 
 that letter that the public mind was at rest. (Mr. Phinney here road 
 part of contract as to expiry on failure to carry on work in 60 days). 
 If that wus not done then the contract was to be at an end. I con- 
 sidered the contract was to be at an end if further aid was not given, 
 ivhen the contract was entered into bona tide, and it speaks for itself. 
 As to the further aid, if the Legislature was not in session then we 
 ■could not get it but every probability was that the Legislature would 
 be in session within the sixty days. It was conditional upon the Legis- 
 lature assenting to that proposition that further aid was to bo given. 
 The Government have not brought in any measure to secure that 
 further aid. The si.xty days have elapsed but probably there is an 
 extension of time required in reference to that. It was a genuine con- 
 tract and was not for the purpose of influencing the election. I do not 
 know personally that money came into York, I heard it here. I never 
 heard Kelly or Murphy say that it was to be sent in consequence of 
 the stand taken by the Attorney on the Ritchie appointment, I said I 
 was not astonished when I heard it here. I had no communication with 
 them or with Kelly and never spoke to Kelly on the subject and I do not 
 know from what portion of the St. John election fund it came. I was 
 not consulted about it. There is an executive committee for that 
 purpose and I did not know anything about any money going out- 
 side of what I paid myself. 
 
 To Mr. Pugsley — I considered the contractu bona fide contract 
 at the time and I considered that the provisions were sufficient to 
 guard the public interest. It was then expected that the Legis- 
 lature would meet within sixty days and it did meet within that 
 time. 
 
 To Mr. Phinney — I took the meaning from the help that would be 
 sent here would be by sending money or voters. 
 
 To Mr. Haningtou — I might state that Kelly and I have not been 
 friends since 1883. I met him sometime after the Ritchie appoint- 
 ment, it might be a fortnight or three weeks after, I think McGold- 
 rick was with him o.nd Connor, and he saye I have not been a sup- 
 porter of you since your election of 1882 but now I am going to 
 support you and the Goverament candidates and do all I can for 
 them for the action that the Attorney General has taken in the 
 
211 
 
 u oon- 
 ►nsitler 
 giving 
 re read 
 
 diiys). 
 
 I cou- 
 , given, 
 ir itself, 
 hen we 
 e would 
 ic Legis- 
 10 given. 
 ;ure tliat 
 icre ii* ail 
 uiuc cou- 
 
 I do not 
 I never 
 queucc of 
 it, I said 1 
 sation with 
 nd 1 do not 
 \e. I ^vas 
 for that 
 joiug out- 
 
 \e contract 
 ifficieut to 
 
 Ithe Legis- 
 ritbin that 
 
 U would be 
 
 jo not been 
 lie appoint- 
 Ik McGold- 
 leen a sup- 
 in going to 
 \\ I can for 
 iken in the 
 
 Ritchie matter, and I will give you all the aid I can or aBsist you all 1 
 can in the election. I do not say these are the exact words used but 
 that is about it, and I was not surprised when I heard that Kelly and 
 his associates sent this $1500. I had understood that be was to 
 aid the Attorney General and he did not give me to understand what 
 he was going to do. He himself explained it on the stand yesterday. 
 I think it would be consistent as he stated it yesterday himself and if 
 he was in the habit of raising money before for that purpose and if the 
 people had fooled him before, he wanted to make sure of it this time. 
 Outside of that letter and the contract no person ever asked me to sign 
 any other paper in connection with tlw dock matter. Nor did any 
 person say to me it was important that any other paper should be signed. 
 [ do not remei-iber having signed any other paror and if I had done so 
 1 think T would have remembered it. 1 do not know that any member 
 of the Government ever signed any paper at all in connection with the 
 contract as to securing a further provincial aid, I do not know of any 
 one ueing asked to do so. I know I said I would use my efforts as also 
 did the Solicitor General, to secure a further grant if possible. 
 Committee adjourned till 9 a. m. to-morrow. 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 Tuesday, April 15th, A. D. 1890. 
 
 Committee met at 10.15 a. m. 
 
 Present: Mr. Wilson, Chairman ; Hon. Mr. Mitchell, Messrs. Hether- 
 ington, Phinney and Atkinson. 
 
 The Committee deliberated as to issue of certain subpceanas re- 
 quired by Mr. Hanington. 
 
 On resuming, the Chairman announced that the Committee had taken 
 the question of issuing father subpoeanas into consideration. 
 
 James Murray, Sworn and Examined by Mr. Hanington : 
 
 Ques. You reside in St. John ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You were until a few years ago American Consul at St, 
 John ? Ans. I had that honor. 
 
 Ques. Where were you from ? Ans. Now York city. 
 
 Ques. Since you ceased to be Consul have you been doing business 
 in St. John ? Ans. Yes, in St. John and the Province. 
 
 Ques. What is your business ? Ans. Lumber. 
 
 Ques. Do you manufacture lumber or buy it ? --;.-.i.. 
 
212 
 
 Ad8. I bad contract for piling. I act for Mr. Leary in his piling 
 baeinese. 
 
 Quee. Mr. Learj, the contractor spoken of bere, is of New York 
 also, is he not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Had you known bim before you came to the Province ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, for 30 years. 
 
 Ques. Did you take any part in getting the contract for him from 
 the city for the docks ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you have anytln'ng to do with getting the contract from 
 the Government for him ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't exactly understand that question. Take any 
 active part with tiie Government, do you mean? 
 
 Ques. I mean take any active part in getting any person to in- 
 fluence the Government or in influencing them yourself? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. VVhar. did you have to do with it with the Government ? 
 
 AuB. Simp'y to act for Mr. Leary with regard to any communicatioD 
 from the Goverument in connection with the contract. 
 
 Ques. You acted for him in that respect ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then, I think you misapprehended my question when I asked 
 you if you had anvthiug to do with influencing the Government to 
 give the contract V 
 
 Ans. No, I had nothing to do with influencing the Government or 
 soliciting them with reference to the contract. I only acted in a 
 clerical position as Leary's agent. 
 
 Ques. Did you consult any persons with reference to it ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did any one consult you with reference to it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. When you say you acted only in a clerical position, would 
 that bo only in Leary's presence when he was in the Province? 
 
 Ans. When ho was absent also. 
 
 Qnes. With whom did you communicate on the subject? 
 
 Ans. On the subject of the contract? 
 
 Ques. Of the contract for the docks ? . 
 
 Ans, With the Solicitor General. 
 
 Ques. In writing? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Had you many communications with him on the subject ? 
 
 Ans. Quite a number, yes. 
 
 Ques. When did your communications with the Solicitor General 
 
 commence? •:- i.'; .. '...> ;r .•■'. ; .«;i; - •,■, ' <f, 
 
213 
 
 iling 
 York 
 
 i from 
 it from 
 ike any 
 
 n to in- 
 
 No. 
 
 it? 
 tnicatioD 
 
 n 1 asked 
 nmeut to 
 
 rnment or 
 ictetl in a 
 
 19. No. 
 iioD, would 
 
 |bject ? 
 )r General 
 
 Ans. I think right away after the Order-in-Conncil waa passed the 
 latter part of December or the first of Jannary. 
 
 Ques. Was the Solicitor General the first member of the Govern- 
 ment you spoke to in connection with it? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. And you saw him frequently on the subject did you ? 
 Ans. Not very frequently. 
 
 Ques. Well, about how often before the contract was signed did 
 you see him ? Ans. Well, probably might be 4 or 5 times. 
 
 Ques. During those 4 or 5 times did you urge upon him to get the 
 contract signed ? Ans. I did. 
 Ques. Did he tell you that he would get the contract signed ? 
 Ans. He told me right away after the Order-in-Council that he was 
 ready to sign the contract, or the contract was ready for execution, 
 and he submitted to me a draft of the contract. 
 Ques. When did he submit that to you ? 
 
 1 think it was the first week in January. 
 Did you submit that draft to Leary ? 
 I submitted the contents of it to Mr. Leary. 
 Did you consult any solicitor, and if so, who, on the subject? 
 None whatever, sir. 
 When you say you submitted the contents to Leary did you 
 send a copy of the draft itself to him? 
 Ans. I sent the substance of it 
 Ques. Did you send a copy of it ? Aus. No. 
 
 You had no solicitor at all on the subject ? Ans. No. 
 Had you any conversation with Mr. Gilbert Pugsley on the 
 Ans. No. 
 
 At any time ? Ans. No. 
 
 Had Mr. Leary as far as you know ? Ans. I don't know. 
 Was Mr. Gilbert Pugsley the solicitor of Mr. Leary as far as 
 you knew ? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. Mr. Gilbert Pugsley was ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 When did you first know that he was solicitor for him ? 
 I think the very same day that Leary retained him. 
 What day was that ? Ans. I could not tell you. 
 Were you present when he retained him ? 
 No. 
 
 About when was he retained ? 
 My impressions are that it was when he bought the real estate 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Aus. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 subject ? 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ana. 
 
 at sand point. 
 
2H 
 
 Ques. When was that ? 
 
 Ans. I think that was after the second meeting of the Council in 
 St. John ; it was sometime in the fall early in December or in 
 November. 
 
 Ques. Then he was retained before the matter came up before the 
 Executive Council ? Ans. Yes. •• 
 
 Ques. Where does Mr. Gilbert Pugsley carry on his business in the 
 city of St. John ? 
 
 Ans. In the Pugsley building on the corner of Prince William and 
 Church streets. 
 
 Ques, Has Mr. William Pugsley his offices in the same building ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Does the same entrance serve lor both gentlemens' rooms ? 
 
 Ans. Both doors lead off the hall. 
 
 Ques. How near are the doors together ? 
 
 Ans. I should judge thirty-five or forty feet. 
 
 Ques. Is there a connection between the two rooms ? 
 
 Ans. No. there is a large intermediate room. 
 
 Ques. Are there doors between them ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you see Gilbert Pugsley and Mr. Leary in the Solicitor 
 General's room ? Ans. No, never. 
 
 Ques. The retainer of Mr. Gilbert Pugsley was in connection with 
 the purchase of real estate ? Ans. It was. 
 
 Ques. After you retained Mr. Gilbert Pugsley ? 
 
 Ans. I did not retain him. 
 
 Ques. Well, after Mr. Leary retained him, did you have any conver- 
 sation with William Pugsley about getting the contract from the Gov- 
 ernment ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Well, you did at some time ? 
 
 Ans. My first conversation with William Pugsley with regard to the 
 contract was after it was passed in Council, and I spoke to him and 
 asked when they were ready to make a contract. 
 
 Ques. Before that, whatever communications took place, Mr. Leary 
 was looking after it himself? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I guess he was most all the time looking after it. He 
 was here very frequently. He was frequently going to Nova Scotia, 
 and he would stop over in St. John — probably three times in the fall. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you he bad seen the Solicitor General about it ? 
 
 Ans. No. . • 
 
215 
 
 cU in 
 or in 
 
 re the 
 
 in tbe 
 
 am anc^ 
 
 ing? 
 
 )oins? 
 
 5 Solicitor 
 lotion witb 
 
 [ny conver- 
 the Gov- 
 
 Igardtothe 
 |o him and 
 
 Mr. Leary 
 
 ter it. He 
 )va Scotiar 
 I in the fall. 
 I about it ^ 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you to ask tbe Solicitor General about it ? 
 Ans. No, 
 
 Ques. Then bow did you come to ask the Solicitor General about it ? 
 Ans. Leary wrote me from New York to see the Solicitor General 
 and ask him to have the contract. 
 Ques. Have you got the letter that he wrote you ? 
 Ans. No, I have not. 
 
 Ques. You did that a short time after the Order-in-Council was 
 made. Well, from that time on you had communications with Mr. 
 William Pugsley ? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. You were in St. John during the election campaign ? 
 No, not all the time. I was on and off there. 
 
 Were you there frequently ? . 
 From the 3rd of January I was there frequently up to the 
 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 election, 
 Ques. 
 
 of 
 
 Were you there almost all the time from the third 
 January to the election ? Ans. No. 
 Ques. What proportion of the time were you not there ? 
 Ans. Well, I could not say exactly. I was up to Salmon River a 
 good deal, up to McLean's, and up to Mr. King, both of whom had large 
 contracts with Leary for lumber. I was away from the city a good 
 ileal. 
 
 The contract it appears was not signed till the 17th ? 
 The 17th was the date. 
 Were you there when it was signed ? 
 I was in St. John. 
 Were you present when McLellan signed it ? Ans. No. 
 A few days before it was signed had you spoken to Mr. 
 Pugsley on the subject of having it signed ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Well, did he tell you that he had charge of the matter from 
 the Attorney General ? 
 Ans. No, he did not tell me anything of the kind. 
 Ques. Well, did he give you to understand that ? 
 Ans. Well, I had been talking to him about the contract from a day 
 or two after the Order-in-Council was passed and he submitted to me 
 a draft contract and I sent the contents " it to Mr. Leary, and I felt 
 and so did Mr. Leary that it was too abt .'. contract to compel him 
 
 to build the docks for a $2600 subsidy au no contention, from the 
 time Pugsley told me he was ready to sign the contract, which was 
 right away after the Order-in-Council pasned, until it was signed, was 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
216 
 
 that it bound Mr. Learj absolately to go on with the work simply for the 
 $2500, and we had frequent talks over the matter with regard to in- 
 sorting a saving clause in the contract that provided that in case Mr. 
 Leary did not get further aid or subsidy he would not be obliged to go 
 on with the contract. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Did I understand you to say that your con- 
 versations with Mr. Pugsley from the time the minute in Council was 
 passed, up to the time the contract was signed, were in reference to 
 the phases of the contract itself ? Aus. Exactly. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). More particularly to the saving clause 
 in the contract ? 
 
 Ans. More particularly. I don't know that Leary had any ob- 
 jections to the contract except that he did not want to be bound by the 
 Provincial Secretary to go on with that work at an immense outlaj- 
 simply for S2500, and unless he got more subsidies he would not go ou 
 with the work. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). In the draft contract submitted to you by 
 Mr. Pugsley, did it not contain the saving clause ? 
 
 Ans. No, that was when he said he was ready to sign the contract 
 right after the third of Jauuary. The saving clause was our contention 
 for two weeks or more before it was finally conceded and the contract 
 executed. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). That contention was that you wanted the 
 saving clause in it as it is now, and the draft contract submitted by 
 him hadn't it in it? Ans. Just so. 
 
 Ques. And of course you refused to take it that way without the 
 saving clause in it ? 
 
 Ans. I did. When the Solicitor General told me after the Order- 
 in-Council that he was ready to sign the contract it had not the saving 
 clause in it. 
 
 Ques. And you refused to sign it unless it had it in ? 
 
 Ans. I refused to entertain it at all without the saving clause. 
 
 Ques. What time was it he first told you he would put the saving 
 clause in ? 
 
 Alls. I think it was somewhere along the 10th or 12th of the month. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure that he told you that he would put it in on the 
 10th or 12th of the month ? Ans. I am. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you he had or had not seen the Attorney 
 Oetieral then? 
 
 Ans. Z don't think the Attorney Genefal's name was mentioned. 
 
217 
 
 jr tbe 
 to in- 
 le Mr. 
 ito go 
 
 ar con- 
 cil ^vas 
 ence to 
 
 r clause 
 
 any 0^- 
 d by the 
 ie outlay 
 lOt goou 
 
 ) you by 
 
 B contract 
 contention 
 e contract 
 
 vanted tbe 
 jmitted by 
 
 itbout tbe 
 
 be Order- 
 the saving 
 
 ause. 
 
 , the saving 
 
 ' the montb. 
 it in on the 
 
 le A-ttorney 
 
 itioned. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure it was not aa late as the 15th that be told you 
 be would put that clause in ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, it was earlier than that. 
 
 Ques. How do you know it was ? 
 
 Ans. Because I was away from home, up to Salmon River. I am 
 sure it was about the 10th or 12th. 
 
 Ques. What day of the week did ycu go up to Salmon River? 
 
 Ans. Thursday night. 
 
 Ques. When did you come back ? Ans. On Monday. 
 
 Ques. Then it could not have been the 10th or 12th because you 
 were away at that time. He did not tell you up at Salmon River, did 
 he ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. That Thursday was not the day the contract was signed? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. It was a week or a little more before election that you went 
 away was it not ? 
 
 Ans. No, I went right away after somewhere about the 3rd or 4th 
 of January up to Salmon River, and that would bring me back about 
 the 10th. 
 
 Ques. You say that you went away on Thursday and came back on 
 Monday ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, right in the first of January. I think on the first Thurs- 
 day in January I went to Salmon River. 
 
 Ques. Are you sure it was the first or the second Thursday ? 
 
 Ans. The first Thursday. 
 
 Ques. Have you any memo, of it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques, Then you came back ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and on my return I found on calling on Mr. Pugsley's 
 office that he was ready to concede that clause in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Why did you not tell us you got the contract from him right 
 aftei tbe Order-in-Council ? Ans. No, 1 didn't. 
 
 Caes. When did you get the contract? 
 
 Ans. I told you that right away after the Order-in-Council he sub- 
 mitted a draft of the contract. 
 
 Ques. The draft yc. got from him? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you got that before the 3rd of January ? 
 
 Aus. No, I say very soon after the Order-in-Council was passed I 
 got the draft. 
 
 Ques. And now you say that as early as the 10th or the 12th that 
 lie told you he was ready to sign it with this clause in it ? ■ ■-'. ■ 
 
218 
 
 Adb. Yes, somewhere along at that time. 
 
 Ques. Tell me what day you got the draft from him first ? 
 
 Ans. Right away after the Order-in>Council was passed. 
 
 Ques. Well, it was passed on the 30th or Slst ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You did not get it that day ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was probably the 3rd or 4th of the month. 
 
 Ques. You told me a little while ago that for about a fortnight there 
 was a discu&sion between you and him to get this thing in, you claim- 
 ing and he objecting ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And at last you succeeded in getting it in ? Ana. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Now, if you first got the draft from him on the 3rd or 4th, 
 tell me where the fortnight was ? Would not that bring it to the 17th ? 
 
 Ans. I said it was about a fortnight. 
 
 Ques. Well, would not that bring it to the 15th or 16th or 17th ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that would be about a fortnight. 
 
 Ques. If that statement is correct that it was about a fortnight, 
 would not the time he agreed to put it in be about the 15th or 16th 
 or 17th ? Ans. It would not in my idea. 
 
 Ques. Would not a fortnight from the 3rd or 4th be about the 16th 
 or 17th? Ans. It would if you call 15 days a fortnight. 
 
 Ques. What do you call a fortnight? Ans. 12 days. 
 
 Ques. Then if you got the draft on the 3rd or 4th would it not still 
 be the 15th or 16th that it was agreed to ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, if it was 12 days. 
 
 Ques. Then Avhat you meant was that it would be about the 15th or 
 16th that it was agreed to ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then if your fortnight was 12 days it would make it about 
 the 15th or 16th that he agreed to put the clause in? 
 
 Ans. Well, about that time. 
 
 Ques. Therefore the 15th or 16th was the time he told you he 
 would put it in ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, it was earlier than that, I told you ahout a fortnight. 
 
 Ques. And you have defined that to be 12 days ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. That being so that would make it the 15th or 16th, would it 
 not ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was not either the 15th or 16th that he 
 did tell you ? Ans. I will swear it was before the 15th or 16th. 
 
 Ques. Then which is correct, your previous statement or this ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I say it was about a fortnight. It might have been seveu 
 days; it might have been eight days. ^• ., -.,;, ii...-^ 
 
219 
 
 t there 
 claim- 
 
 'es. 
 
 or 4th, 
 eHth? 
 
 7 th? 
 
 ortnightr 
 1 or 16th 
 
 , the 16th 
 
 it not still 
 
 le 15th or 
 ^e it about 
 
 Did you he 
 
 [night. 
 Yes. 
 [), would it 
 
 5th that be 
 l6th. 
 this? 
 ,een sevea 
 
 Ques. Is seven days a fortnight? Ana. Yes, about that. 
 
 Ques. Was it not nearer a week than a fortnight ? 
 
 Ans. Why, it is over a week. 
 
 Ques. Is seven days over a week ? 
 
 Ans. A fortnight is over a week. I said it was about a fortnight 
 from the time Mr. Pugsley first submitted his draft contract until th« 
 one was handed to me for execution with the saving clause in it. 
 
 Ques. Not that — but you said until he agreed to put it in ? 
 
 Ans. Well, but I mean the contract was then drawn with the saving 
 clause in it. If I say a fortnight, would not eight days be about a 
 iortnight. I should call about a fortnight eight or ten days. If 1 
 should say a fortnight, I should mean twelve days, and if I would say 
 about a fortnight, I would mean a day or two, more or less. 
 
 Qnes. But when it came nearer to a week than a fortnight, would 
 you not say it was about a week ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't know that I would look at it in that way. 
 
 Ques. Anyway this subject was a subject of very grave discussion 
 between you and the Solicitor General ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was a business discussion. 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell hir j that unless that clause was in you would 
 not sign the contract ? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. It is clear that unless it was changed in that way you would 
 Dot sign it ? Ans. No, I would not. 
 
 Ques. It was not in the draft he submitted to you ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And therefore, it was not in the draft Mr. Pugsley sent to the 
 Attorney General, as far as you knew ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, I did not know anything about that. 
 
 Ques. That being so, you made no hesitation in telling the friends 
 of the dock that you would not sign it until you got additional aid? 
 
 Ans. I never made any talk with the friends of the dock pro or con- 
 
 Ques. Did no one interested in getting the dock speak to you on 
 the subject ? Ans. Very few. 
 
 Ques. Did you make any secret of the fact that Mr. Leary would 
 not go on with the contract unless that clause was in it ? 
 
 Ans. I did not speak to anyone except the Solicitor General about 
 that. 
 
 Ques. Were there not a considerable numuer of persons interested 
 ID getting the dock and taking an interest in it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. When did Mr. Leary leave there ? • ■■"■'-' '-'•'' -.;,.' 
 
 Ans. He left there in December. i i.-^/ 
 
220 
 
 Ques. Was be not iu St. John again before the election? 
 
 Ans. I don't think he was ; no sir. 
 
 Ques. From that time out you were known to be acting for him in 
 (the matter of this dock ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't know that I was known to be acting for him. 
 I was acting for him. 
 
 Ques. It was a subject of very much discussion — the contract for 
 the dock — was it not? 
 
 Ans. Among the people, yes. 
 
 Ques. There were some people very anxious about it, were there 
 not, about the contract being let? 
 
 Ans. I don't know anything about that. 
 
 Ques. Did not you know that McGoldrick was? 
 
 Ans. I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you not know that Mr. Stackhouse was? 
 
 Ans. I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did they never mention it to you? 
 
 Ans. They never talked to me about the contract at all. 
 
 Ques. Nor you did not speak to Mr. McMillan or the Mayor? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nor them to you ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then you spoke to nobody and nobody to you on the subject ? 
 
 Ans. I made it a point to keep it my own business, and kept en- 
 tirely aloof from dock matters and everything of the kind. 
 
 Ques. Then you were just running it privately with Pugsley ? 
 
 Ans. I was not running anything with him. 
 
 Ques. Well, managing it ? 
 
 Ans. I was not managing it. He wanted the contract properly 
 executed. I bad no business with him with regard to dock matters, 
 but just the matter of getting a proper contract. 
 
 Ques. Was it not your business to get that contract for Leary? 
 Exactly, but not so far as dock matters were concerned. 
 Is not the matter of a contract to build a dock a dock matter? 
 No, a contract is one thing and building a dock is another. 
 Is not the matter of getting a dock contract a matter of a 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 -dock? 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 you not? 
 
 It is connected with it, but it is not the building of the dock. 
 You were looking after this dock matter for Leary were 
 
221 
 
 iim in 
 L- him. 
 act fov 
 
 re 
 
 there 
 
 or 
 
 .^ 
 
 ,e subject ? 
 4 kept en- 
 
 i;s\cy? 
 
 ct properly 
 Ick matters, 
 
 Leary? 
 Urned. 
 lock matter? 
 another. 
 
 I matter of » 
 
 of the dock. 
 l.eary ^^te 
 
 Ads. 
 him. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 dock? 
 
 Ads. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 I told you rery plainly that in Leary's absence I acted for 
 
 In relation to this dock contract matter? 
 In relation to his whole business including that. 
 And included in that business was the contract for the 
 
 Certainly. 
 
 Then when I asked you if you had charge of this dock 
 matter for him and you said you were not, you were evidently in error? 
 
 Ans. I simply had charge of looking after the contract for the dock. 
 
 Ques. And the dock matter as far as it was then developed ? 
 
 Ans. There was nothing then developed. There was no develop- 
 ment. The only thing in connection with the dock matter at that time 
 W.1S the matter of getting the contract. 
 
 Ques. Had you not charge for Leary of getting that dock ontract? 
 
 Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. And you have told us you saw the Solicitor General four 
 or five times with reference to having it made right? 
 
 Ans. In reference to having the saving clause put in. Yes ; about 
 four or five times. 
 
 Ques. What do you mean by that ? 
 
 Ans. Might be 3 or 4 or 5. 
 
 Ques. You saw him four or five times on that subject. That 
 would be after he gave you the draft contract ? 
 
 Ans. After he submitted the draft contract — right away after the 
 meeting of the Council. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell me the day you sent it on to New York to 
 Leary — the draft contract ? 
 
 Ans. I did not send him the draft coutract. 
 
 Well, the contents of the draft contract? 
 I wrote him substantially what the provisions of the coutract 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 were. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 
 Well, what day did you do that ? 
 
 I think the very same nif ht that Pugsley told me he was 
 ready to sign, and submitted the draft contract. 
 Ques. What time was that ? ' > ' -V 
 
 Ans. I think the 2nd or 3rd of January. '' '"■' • ■ ' "L' 
 
 Ques. Are you sure of that ? .a. ;'<ivi; ...c, Int! . /r .••??, I'' 
 Ans. Well, I am sure it was the very earliest part of January* 
 
222 
 
 Ques. Are you sure it was the 2Dd or 3rcl. Will you swear it 
 was not the 4th ? Aus. Yes, 
 
 Ques. What time of the week was it ? 
 
 Ans. That I could not tell you. 
 
 Ques. What day of the week was New Year's ? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you that without reference. 
 
 Ques. Then you are not speaking from any memo, but simply from 
 memory as to the time ? Aus. Entirely. 
 
 Ques. Can you tell me how long after you sent it before you got 
 word back from Leary that it was satisfactory. Have you got a copy 
 of Leary's letter with you? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Have you any letters with you ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Have you any date by which you could tell me the time that 
 you got word from Leary ? 
 
 Aus. Well, I could say " about," but you might put a construction 
 on that of five or six days, one way or the other. 
 
 Ques. Did you get instructions from him by telegraph or letter? 
 I could not say. 
 
 Well, tell me the time, will you? 
 Right away after the first of January. 
 But when did you get the answer back is what I want to 
 
 Aus. 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 know? 
 Ans. 
 Ques. 
 
 Wei!, that is what I say. 
 
 Well, it could not be that for it was right away after the tirst 
 of January you say when you got the draft ? 
 
 Ans. I could get an answer from New York in 48 hours. 
 
 Ques. But will you swear you did? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I swear that I got an answer at once. 
 
 Ques. Well, you sent it about the third, did not you? 
 
 Ans. Yes. I think the very same night that the draft was sub- 
 mitted to me I sent the substance of it to Leary. 
 
 Ques. And that you think was about the third ? 
 
 Ans. No, I could not say the third but the early part of January. 
 
 Ques. How long after you sent it before you went up to Grand 
 Lake? Ans. Just as soon as I got word from him. 
 
 Ques. And then you went up river? 
 
 Ques. No, I saw Pugsley and told him that — i.,^ 
 
 Ques. Yes, but how long after you heard from Leary did you go I 
 up river to look after the lumber ? --.v? n *j»iui ii>t. ! ,m:? -* 
 
 \ 
 
223 
 
 S^ues. Are you sure of it? An«, v .. 
 
 Q"ee. Now. if New Year's was Wo P''/ '"^ '"^"^°''>' '^^'^^^ mo 
 
 «^ack fiom him, and then went un tn Vi ^ "^ ^^"'-^ ""^ got word 
 
 wards. ,t is perfectly clear tl y u dfd "t" """"■ ' ''' ^^ *^- ^^e ^ 
 first week in Juuuary ? ^''" ^'^ "^* ^^^ "P to Salmon River the 
 
 Ques Th •(■ ® -'•'^ursday. 
 
 (^ues. Well if If I 
 
 '^°tZ ZVJ:;) Z yf r' '"" ^°"^- -"■-'■ ^^u say wa^ 
 y»" got it, the day after ^oufd b/s^/"" "'^ "o' g» «» the dayX 
 , ^"^- VVell, about the 3rd !„, u '^' °°' ^''"■■''lay ? 
 <«» the 2„d. , -^ ^x" """Id "0, be Friday , it' ,„,-gh, ha.e 
 
 Viues. Did vou nnf f«n 
 "« ,h, third' ""' "' ^°" g°' tl-e draft contract fron, P„„„e^ 
 
 ,,£-J^..«a„o.yo„a.™eri,ht.™ythatZ,otit„:.he 
 
 'I 
 
224 
 
 Ques. And then it was you went up to Salmon River? 
 
 Ans. Yei. 
 
 Ques. And you thought it might have been the day afterwards ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Cuuid you do all that in four days ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Well, the third was Friday ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you say you could write to New York and get an answer 
 back and leave before Saturday night 7 Ans. Yes, I could do it. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did do it ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I swear as soon as I got word from Leary I went to 
 Salmon River. 
 
 Ques. You did not go to Salmon River on Saturday? 
 
 Ans. I might have. 
 
 Ques. Did you not tell us you went on Thursday and came back 
 on Monday ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I presume I did. I have been to Salmon River half a 
 dozen times this winter. 
 
 Ques. But did not you say you went on Thursday and came back 
 on Monday? Ans. Yes, I did 
 
 Ques. Well, New Year's Day was Wednesday. You did not go on 
 the Thursday immediately after New Year's Day, did you ? 
 
 Ans. 1 said I went on Thursday and came back on Monday. 
 
 Ques. Well, you did not go to Salmon River the day after New 
 Year's? Ans, No. 
 
 Ques. Then it was the next week after that? 
 
 Ans. No, it was not. My impre.ssions are that I went there the 
 first week in January. 
 
 Ques. Then yoiu* impression is that you went the first week that 
 began on Wednesday ? Ans. Yes, that is my impression. 
 
 Ques. The time that you fixed at which you spoke of ten or twelve 
 days or about a fortnight is based upon the time you went up to 
 Salmon River. That is what you have told us, that the reason 
 you know is because you went up to Salmon River ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me how long it was after you came back from 
 Salmon River that Mr. Pugsley told you that he would insert this 
 clause ? Ans. Right away when I came back. 
 
 Ques. Then would that be the week of or the week immediately 
 before the election ? 
 
 Ans. The election took place on the 20th ; yes it would be the 
 
 to 
 
 oou 
 
 (» 
 
SM 
 
 vent to 
 
 ne back 
 sr half a 
 me back 
 
 ot go on 
 
 ftev New 
 
 ;hcve the 
 
 kvcek that 
 
 ov twelve 
 ^ut up to 
 le rcasoa 
 lYes. 
 lack itm 
 Inaert this 
 
 Imediately 
 
 Id be the 
 
 week before the election — a week or ten days before the election that 
 I came back from Salmon River. 
 
 Quc3. Well, if you came back on Monday it would not be ten days. 
 Did you come back on Monday from Salmon River? 
 
 Ans. That is my impression. 
 
 Quc9. Then the whole of this is impression — you are not certain of 
 anything? 
 
 Ans. Most certainly ; I cannot call to mind the exact dates and 
 times three or four months ag». . 
 
 Ques. When you speiik of datos and times it i? simply impressions, 
 and you are not sure of it ? 
 
 Ans. Just exactly ; I state that most frankly. 
 
 Ques. Did ^Ir. Pugsley when ho told you that he would insert the 
 clause, tell you that he h-ad word from the Attorney General, and it 
 was altered, or words to that eftbct? Ans. lie did not. 
 
 Ques. Did he at any time toll you he was consulting with the 
 Attorney General about it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did he tell you that he had sent the draft to the Attorney 
 General? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did ho give you to understand that he had got back the draft 
 from the Attorney General before ho agreed to do this ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Whether he did or not, you don't know? 
 No, I don't know anything about that. 
 But ho did tell you it was altered and he would change it? 
 Yes. 
 
 And he did chancre it ? Ans. Yes. 
 And was not that about the time the contract was sisned? 
 
 The time it was changed ? 
 Yes? 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. Oh, I say when I came back from Salmon River he gave mo 
 to understand the contract would be changed. 
 
 Ques. Well, was not that about the time it was signed ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was before. 
 
 Ques. Well, how long before? 
 
 Ans. Well, I could not swear to any particular time ; it was some 
 days I am sure. 
 
 Ques. Did not you understand from the Solicitor General that he 
 could deal with this subject himself — of the change in the contract? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 15 : •■-.■>;(:;>.• 
 
226 
 
 Ques. You suy ho never mentioned the Attorney General in it? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You did not know the Attorney General was to be consulted 
 about it? Ani;. Well, I don't know that I did. 
 
 Ques. Well, did you not hear it? 
 
 Ans. I don't know that I did. 
 
 Ques. You knew that there was a good deal of feeling, didn't you, 
 in political circles and canvasses, that the Governnu'ut did not intend 
 to sign the contract with that clause in it? 
 
 Ans. AVell of course I knew there was some feeling about the 
 contract which 1 mostly gathered from what I saw in the newsi)apers. 
 
 Ques. And doubt as to whether the Government intended to sign 
 the contract with that clause in it? 
 
 Ans. I don't know whether that impression was made on my mind. 
 It was in the middle of a political campaign and I did not pay much 
 attention to it. 
 
 Ques. About how much time elapsed between the ditlerent times 
 you saw the Solicitor General ? 
 
 Ans. Oh, a day, «r two or three days between each time, perhaps. 
 
 (^ues. Did you hear from Mr. Leary in the meantime. Did you 
 communicate with Leary as to seeing him or what you were doing on 
 the subject? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you have any letters from Leary urging you to h ive 
 something settled about it? 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugslcy objects. First, letters he got from Leary unless 
 communicated to Attorney General v/ould not be evidence ; second, 
 contents of them could not be given without their production, and Mr. 
 Murray has had no notice to produce letters. 
 
 Mr. Ilanington — They have been proving coHimunications in this 
 way on their side and it is proper evidence in this inquiry. It is ini- 
 possil)le for me to define the letters and papers that have passed so a^ 
 to have them produced here. 
 
 Hon. !Mr. Pugsley — The member of the House making the charge 
 must be taken to have knowledge of the facts upon which he bases it. 
 The OiJiuary rules of evidence must bo complied with. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I do not think he should answer the question. 
 First, it is a written document which if produced will speak for itself; 
 second, Attorney General, the party charged, was not made acquainted 
 with contents. 
 
227 
 
 ted 
 
 you, 
 
 itenA 
 
 t the 
 ) sign 
 
 m'uul. 
 much 
 
 t limc!^ 
 
 >eiluv\)s. 
 
 )id y«« 
 oing on 
 
 to h >vc' 
 
 unless 
 fjooond, 
 luniA Ml' 
 
 Is in tUis^ 
 lit is ini- 
 ked so as 
 
 le charge 
 1 bases it. 
 
 Uiestion. 
 
 lor itself; 
 
 bquaiutod 
 
 Mr. Phimiey — If this was a Court of hiw the objection that it was a 
 written docunjent would prevail, but I do not think it is a valid 
 objection in a court of inquiry of this kind, because it is impossible for 
 counsel to know what documents he requires. As to the ground that 
 it was not communicated to ]Mr. Blair, it seems to me that it is simply 
 offered to show the extent of the authority which Mr. ^lurray had. If 
 Leary communicated with him and gave him instructions, it would go 
 far to show the extent of the authority he had from liCary, and explain 
 his contiact upon those instructions. We know he was acting 
 generally as agent, but what were the specilic instructions. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — It is impossible for us to say what the contents of 
 the letters are, but if Leary writes his agent on matters connected with 
 the contract, urging him to settle the contract or have it arranged, I 
 think wo are justified in wanting to know what the instructions were. 
 
 Mr. rietherington — I agree with the Secretary. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I am opposed to the question on both grounds urged 
 by the Solicitor General. It would have l)een very easy to have sub- 
 poenaed Mr. Murray to produce all documents and papers sent him by 
 Mr. Leary. (Ruled out). 
 
 (^ues. (Mr. Ilanington). You having received letters from Mr. 
 Leary, did you tell Mr. Pugsley that you had received letters from 
 him ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You did not tell him that you had heard from Leary at all ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. I)ut you went and urged this thing three or four or five 
 limes of your own accord, and that was after you had heard from 
 Leary ? Ans. ' It was. 
 
 Ques. Do you say that Mr. Stackhouse and these gentlemen never 
 spoke to you about this contract, or whether it was signed, or as to 
 the terms of it or anything of that kind r 
 
 Ans. They never mentioned the contract to me in the world. 
 
 Ques. Nor you to them? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Whether they did t« Leary or not yuu don't know? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. la not Mr. Stackhouse taking much interest in this business? 
 
 Ans. I don't know ; I know that he has been an advocate of the 
 dock in the City Council. 
 
 Ques. Did not Stackhouse meet you last night when you first 
 arrived hero and have a long talk with you, and did bo not meutioQ 
 the subject of this inquiry going on ? Ana. No. 
 
228 
 
 Ques. He had a long talk with you? 
 
 Ans. No, I met him as I got out of the carriage in front of the 
 Barker House. 
 
 Ques. How long did he talk to you ? 
 
 Ans. Perhaps about five minutes. 
 
 Ques. And never mentioned the subject of this inquiry at ai 
 
 Ans. Not at all. 
 
 Ques. Of course you knew Mr. Stackhause ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, for some years, 
 
 Ques. Have you never asked bira anything about prices or the 
 probable cost of any such works, either of wharf works or anything 
 connected with this dock? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. At any time ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Previous to the day the contract was signed you met Mr. 
 Pugsley several times ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you discuss questions in the contract — the points in 
 the contract with him — for instance, there is a point that time was to 
 be the essence of the contract ; did you discuss that with him ? 
 
 Ans. No. That was satisfactory as far as I could see. 
 
 Ques. Was that in the original draft? Ans. No, 
 
 Ques. Then if it was not in the original draft submitted to you 
 of which you sent the substance on to Leary, when was it that Mr. 
 Pugsley proposed to put that in ? 
 
 Ans. The original draft, I don't recollect whether it named any 
 specified time for the commencement of the work or not ; I did not 
 pay any attention to it. i he whole contention with Pugsley was the 
 clause with regard to making it absolute. 
 
 Ques. No, but you said that the clause that time was to be of the 
 essence of the contract was not in the original draft ? 
 
 Ans. I did not discuss it in the origiual draft ; I don't think I paid 
 any attention to it in the original draft. 
 
 Ques. You said it was not in it, but perhaps you did not intend that? 
 
 Ans. I don't think I said that, but if I did I did not mean it. I 
 presume that there v/as time in there, but that it was to be the essence 
 of the contract I don't remember whether that was in or not. It is^ 
 the same as most contracts are drawn. 
 
 Ques. Was that in the original draft or not? 
 
 Ans. Jl think it was ; what I meant to say was that there was no 
 discussion in regard to that point.. 
 
229 
 
 the 
 
 of the 
 
 1 paii^ 
 
 Lid that? 
 
 n it. 1 
 essence 
 
 t. It is 
 
 was no 
 
 Ques. But this last clause was the one that was adnaitted after all 
 'this discussion between you — '"It is understood and agreed that this 
 ■contract is preliminary to a further agreement, etc., etc."? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. In other words that clause provides that unless satisfactory 
 Provincial aid is given — and further aid to uu amount that would satisfy 
 Mr. Leary, he need not go on with it? 
 
 Ans. No, that was not the view I took of it. That was not my 
 contention in the matter. 
 
 Ques. Your contention was that he would not go on without further 
 Provincial aid? 
 
 Ans. No, he might have gone on with the $2500 if he had got from 
 the Dominion Government sufficient to go on. 
 
 Ques. But he would not bind himself? 
 
 Ans. Certainly, it says so in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Your contention was that he should not bind himself to go 
 on without further Provincial aid ? 
 
 Ans, No, but if he did get sufficient from the Dominion Govern- 
 ment he might go on. 
 
 Ques. What do you call sufficient from the Dominion Government, 
 $10,000? Ans. Oh, no. 
 
 Ques. Well, that was the amount contemplated to be got from the 
 Dominion? 
 
 Ans. No, more than that. I think Leary had assurances of more 
 subsidy than that from the Dominion. 
 
 Ques. You are not speaking of your own knowledge of that ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Mr.Phinney). I would like an explanation of how that clause 
 came to be in the contract ; it strikes me as a peculiar one ? 
 
 Ans. The view I took of the draft without that saving clause was, 
 that it would oblige Leary to go on with his work with simply a subsidy 
 of $2500 from the Province, if he got nothing at all from the Dominion 
 or nothing at all from the city. Should any trouble take place about 
 it, they could compel him under that contract simply for $2500 to 
 go on with the work down in the harbor of St. John, and to protect 
 him in that respect is why I insisted upon that clause in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Suppose he had got the subsidy from the Dominion Govern- 
 ment and from the City Government and the $2500 from the Local 
 Government, did you consider under that clause of the agreement he 
 was then bound to go on ? Ans. 1 considered it was optional with him. 
 
230 
 
 Ques. Was not that the very object of inserting it — to leave it 
 optional on condition that if ho did not get more than $2500 from the 
 Province, even assuming he got all the other subsidies, he was not 
 bound to go on ? Ans. Exactly, most assuredly. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). And at first Pugslcy refused to do that, 
 didn't he ? You had to see him 3 or 4 or 5 times ? 
 
 Ans. He refused to put in any such clause. He stated the interests 
 of the Province were at stake, and he wanted to have the contract 
 drawn to cover the interests of the people here of this Province, and 
 he would not listen to any such thing. 
 
 Ques. And at last he did listen to it and agree to it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that was not the very day that he telephoned 
 Mr. Barry that a friend was coming up here with the money ? 
 
 Ans. I have no more conception of what Mr. Pugsley telephoned 
 than you have. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear it was not the same day ? ■ 
 
 Ans. How could I; I did not know anything about it; the question 
 is utterly ridiculous, 
 
 Ques. Tell me what it was, if you will, that convinced him to put 
 that clause in? Ans. I could not tell you ; I don't know, 
 
 Ques. Did you ever see the Order-in-Council? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. There was no such condition as that in the order ? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't think I ever saw the Order-in-Council. 
 
 Ques. Did you see the letter from the Secretary? Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. There was no such condition as that in that ? 
 
 Ans. The letter he had in the Globe, you mean, no. 
 
 Ques. Well, that is not what I moan? 
 
 Ans. Well, that is what I mean. 
 
 Ques. I mean the letter that is on the files from the Government — 
 the otficial one ? Ans. That I never saw. 
 
 Ques. Then as far as you know what induced him to change his 
 mind and put in that clause leaving it entirely optional with ]Mr. 
 Leary whether ho would go on or not ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know ; it is beyond my knowledge. 
 
 Ques. Don't you know that Kelly was very anxious for these 
 works to go on ? 
 
 Ans. I think he was by his action in the Board of Aldermen. 
 
 Ques. Didn't he take a very active interest in getting the contract 
 for Leary ? . - ,, .. „ : . .. 
 
231 
 
 Ans. I don't know about his taking an active interest in his getting 
 it. He took an active interest in having the city of St. John promote 
 and favor the Leary dock scheme. 
 
 Ques. And to get the contract for Leary for it ? Ans. Of course. 
 
 Ques. Did not you know that besides the actian he took in the 
 Council, that outside he was often advocating it? Ans. I dida't. 
 
 Ques. You did not hear that? (Objected to — Ruled out, per 
 Phinney, Hetherington and Mitchell). 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). When you say the Solicitor General sub- 
 mitted a draft contract to you, did he give you a copy of that draft for 
 your perusal ? 
 
 Ans. He submitted the draft to me but did not give me a copy for 
 my own. 
 
 Ques. What inspection did you have ? 
 
 Ans. I hiade a careful inspection of the copy he had. 
 
 Ques. You had no copy for your own inspection? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And you have none now of that original draft? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). Did he leave it with you ? 
 
 Ans. I think I had it one night and returned it to him, and stated 
 my objection that it was too absolute for Mr. Leary to go on with it; 
 that it bound him no matter what occurred with the Dominion or City. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). You, acting for Leary, actually refused to 
 enter into that contract? 
 
 Ans. Most assuredly. I would not take any such responsibility at 
 all. 
 
 Quos. Did the Solicitor General urge you to enter into the con- 
 tract at all, or give you any reasons why you should? 
 
 Ans. Yes, ho gave his olllcial position as Solicitor General and the 
 interests of the Province to be looked after, that he wanted to make as 
 strong a contract as he could, and I told him I wanted to make as fair 
 and good a c. ./ract as I could. 1 wanted to make a fair business contract, 
 
 Ques. Did he urge any special objections to the clause you wished 
 inserted, which is now in ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And refused to do it? 
 
 Ans. Oh no. He urged objections, yet he did not say that it was of 
 any great moment ; did not attach any great importance to it but he 
 preferred not to put it in. Did not state any real strong objection to it. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Well, if he had no strong objections to it 
 why did he require you to see him three or four or five times about it ? 
 
232 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — He did not say three or four or five times about 
 that alone, he said altogether. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hauington). Did you not say that you saw him three or 
 four or five times about getting this clause in ? 
 
 Ans. About the contract? 
 
 Ques. No, but about getting this clause in? 
 
 Ans. 1 don't recollect that I said so ; the record is there. 
 
 Ques. Didn't you say you saw him 3 or 4 or 5 times about getting 
 this clause in? 
 
 Ans. No, with reference to the contract I think I stated. 
 
 Ques. Did that include the time it was delivered to you? 
 
 Ans. From the time he first submitted the draft till it was delivered, 
 I think I saw him 4 or 5 times. 
 
 Ques. Did not you tell us that you urged him over and over again 
 to have that clause inserted and he would not? 
 
 Au8. I did not say that I urged him over and over again to have 
 the clause inserted and he would not. 
 
 Ques. Did not you say you saw him, at least three times, and urged 
 it upon him and he would not do it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me what reasons you gave him at all that convinced 
 him to give it to you? Ans. Well, I don't know. 
 
 Ques. Do you know any reason that any other friend of the enter- 
 prise gave him to get him to agree to it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Do you know whether or not it was not that they agreed to 
 send money to York to help in the election, that induced him to agree 
 to it? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. What connection his sending the money to York had to hi? 
 agreeing to it, vou don't know?' Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Coming down to the day you got the contract, it was deliver- 
 ed to you at last? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I got word that the contract was ready for execution. 
 1 went down to Mr. Pugsley's office and Mr. Pugsley was not 
 in. I saw Mr. Trueman and he had the contracts there ; 1 read theiu 
 over — read one of them over and affixed my name as Leary's agent. 
 
 Qies. What day was that ? 
 
 An.,. I think that was the 17th day of January. 
 
 Ques. What time in the day? Ans. In the morning. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Pugsley was not there ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. McLellan's name to itthen? Ans. No. 
 
283 
 
 ibout 
 ■ee or 
 
 retting 
 
 [ivered, 
 jr again 
 
 to have 
 ad urged 
 ;onvinced 
 
 he entci- 
 
 liigvecd to 
 to agree 
 
 iiad to hii^ 
 IS deliver-^ 
 
 jxecutiou. 
 was 110^ 
 Ivead tliew 
 agent. 
 
 Qiies. Whoii did you next see it? 
 
 Ans. While I was talking to Mr. Trueman about the execution of 
 the contract, I told him I wanted to go away to the lumber operation 
 at Gagetown and wanted to know if I could not get the contract that 
 day, and while we were talking Mr. William Pugsley came in and 
 he said it was simply impossible ; that the Provincial Secretary's name 
 had to be attached to it, and it also had to have the official seal. Well, 
 I told him it was a matter of great importance to me ; that I want to 
 get up to Gagetown; my people had been waiting for me; I had 15 
 teams of hoi'ses and 40 or 45 men, and had rather neglected my busi- 
 ness ; ought to have been there two weeks before. Well, he said it was 
 simply impossible to deliver the contract that day to me, the seal had 
 to be attached to it. I said : Could you not get the Secretary's name to 
 it? He said : That will do you no good for you will have to take it to 
 Fredericton to get the seal on it. I said : If you will get the Secre- 
 tary's name attached to it I will bring the document up to Fredericton 
 and get the seal put on it and mail it to Leary and then I can go from 
 Fredericton to Gagetown to my work. He said he would see about it. 
 I told him it would be a great convenience to mo as it would save me 
 a great deal of trouble in my getting to my camp, and I would be very 
 much obliged to him if he would. Along in the afternoon I went 
 home, I generall}' take lunch about 2 o'clock, and I think a little after 
 4 or some time after 4, I received from Mr. Pugsley's (jffice the con- 
 tract executed by the Provincial Secretary with a little slip inside 
 du'ccting Mr. Tibbits at Fredericton to affix the seal, and it was just 
 about as much as I could do to catch the train and come up here that 
 uiglit. 
 
 Ques. Which train? Ans. The C. P. 11., I think. 
 
 Ques. But you did catch it and came here ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, just caught it. 
 
 Ques. It was sent over to your office, was it not ? 
 
 Ans. No, my house ; I have no office. 
 
 Ques. How far is that from Pugsley's office? 
 
 Ans. Well, probably 8 or 10 minutes walk. 
 
 Ques. Any way the result of it was that the contract was executed 
 in time to be sent to your house for you to take the train. Now, did 
 not the train leave there about 3 o'clock ?• 
 
 Ana. The train left I think abeut 3.45 standard. 
 
 Ques. Then if it is sworn here by anybody that the contract was 
 
234 
 
 not signed till about 6 o'clock, it is a mistake? Ans. Most assuredly. 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — Nothing of the kind was sworn to. 
 Committee adjourned till 2.30 P. M. 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, 
 
 Monday, Apuil 15. 
 
 Committee met at 2.30 p. m. pursuant to adjournment, when ex- 
 amination of James Murray is resumed. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Haningtou). You have told us that you brought the con- 
 tract up on the train. Were you at your house when it came ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. How far in your house from the station ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I can go from my house to the station liy going very 
 quickly in about 15 minutes. 
 
 Ques. Then you went quickly that day? 
 
 Ans. I ran most of the way. 
 
 Ques. Where is your house? Ans. Orange street, number 78. 
 
 Ques. You were in a great hurry to get up to Fredericton? 
 
 Ans. Well, yes. Indirectly I was ; I was in a great hurry to go to 
 Gagetown. 
 
 Ques. Well, did you go to Gaget«)wn before yrjii went home? 
 
 Ans. Xo. 
 
 Ques. You came to Fredericton aud arrived hero the evening of 
 the 17th? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you see anybody connected with the Government or 
 any of the officers that night? Ans. Yos. 
 
 (^ues. See anyone connected with the Attorney General that night? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. I mean from the Attorney General ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Had you a letter from the Solicitor General? Ans. Xo. 
 
 Ques. Letter from the Provincial Secretary? 
 
 Ans. Well, it was a little slip of piiper directed to Mr. Til)bits 
 just asking him if he would attach the seal to the contract. 
 
 Ques. And give it to you ? 
 
 Ans. No, he did not say anything about giving it to me that 1 
 remember. My recoUectien is that it simply said to place the seal to 
 the contract, 
 
 Ques. From Mr. Pugsley that was? Ans. No, Mr. McLellau. 
 
235 
 
 eaiy. 
 
 15. 
 
 en ex- 
 he con- 
 
 ng very 
 
 >ev 78. 
 
 9 
 
 ■ to go to 
 
 inc? 
 
 vcinng ot 
 nnient or 
 (lilt night? 
 
 |3. No. 
 V. Til)bits 
 
 me tbut 1 
 the seal to 
 
 iLellan. 
 
 Ques. Hud you seen Mr. McLellau that day? Ans. No. 
 Ques. From whom was it you understood that you would get the- 
 contract that day ? 
 
 Ans. The Solicitor General I talked to ; I told him I was very 
 anxious to get to Gagetown. 
 
 Ques. From the Solicitor General's office to your place would be 
 about ten minutes walk? Ans. Just about. 
 Ques. You live in the south-eastern part of the city, don't you? 
 Ans. I live next to Howard Troop's house, right opposite Mr. 
 George McLeod's. i 
 
 Ques. Were you prepared to leave for Fredericton before you got 
 this? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I was all prepared ; with satchell, etc., and account books, 
 and one thing and another for Gagetown. 
 Ques. Where did you stop in Fredericton? 
 At the Queen. 
 
 Did you register your name there ? Ans. Yes. 
 When did you leave there ? 
 I left there the first train in the morning. 
 You did not go to Gagetown ? Ans. No. 
 Which way did you go ? Aus. To St. John. 
 In the morning ? Ans. Yes. 
 Did you tell jNIr. Pugsloy you had got it fixed ? 
 I did not see him again at all. , 
 
 Nor McLellan ? Ans. No. 
 
 Having got the seal on it you sent it right to Lcary ? 
 No. I took it with me to St. John. 
 
 Aus. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 (^ues. 
 
 Aus. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 You got the seal on it, did vou ? Aus. Yes 
 
 Then did you take it away Avith you ? 
 
 Yes, I calculated when I got the seal on the contract to mail 
 it from hero to Mr. Lcary, but from inquiry at the hotel, it was just 
 after a heavy snow storm, and Edwards and the stable people told me 
 it would be impossible to go from here to Gagetown because the roads 
 had not been broken out, that I could not possibly go there, and con- 
 sequently I made up my mind to take the first train in the morjiing 
 tor home. • . " 
 
 Ques. Did you keep the contract since ? 
 
 Ans. No, I mailed it right away as soon as I got to St. John to 
 ilr. Leary. 
 
236 
 
 Ques. Whose uamo was witness to the signature of Mr. McLellau? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you. 
 
 Ques. I see the duplicate here has Mr. Tibljlts' name ? Mr. Tib- 
 bits did not see McLellau sign that one that you got? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You came up that night and Tibbits was here ? 
 
 Ans. No, I came up and went to the Queen Hotel, registered my 
 name, and asked if they could tell me where Mr. Tibbits lived, and 
 they said they could call him up by telephone, and they did and he 
 came to the hotel. I showed him the little piece of paper from the 
 Provincial Secretary to please attach the seal, and asked him if he 
 would object to going down to the building and placing the seal on 
 the contract. 
 
 Ques. Did you telegraph to Leary that you had the contract? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. You wrote him and sent it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You had no other communications with him at the time V 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Who was present when McLellan signed it you don't know 
 because you were not there yourself ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Now, Mr. Murray, since the elections were over, do you know 
 whether Mr. Leary has been asked to contribute, to arrange for some 
 notes that fell due arising out of election matters ? Ans. I don't. 
 
 Ques. How the election money was raised in St. John, whether by 
 note or otherwise, do you know at all ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know anything at all about it. 
 
 Ques. Or how that was done ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. And how the money was raised here, you don't know? 
 
 Ans. No, not being a voter I took uo interest. 
 
 Ques. You were not iuformed of the fact ? 
 
 Ans. I had no knowledge, in any way, of it, 
 
 Ques. Your purpose was to get tlie contract changed to suit you. 
 and having done that to get the seal to it, and then your instructions 
 were filled as far as that was concerned ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I considered that that business was done and all I wanted 
 was to go to Gage town to attend to business there. 
 
 Ques. You considered your business as far as Leary was concerned 
 as to the contract, was done ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Your business with Leary and the dock was then done ? 
 
 Ana. Well, as far as the contract was concerned I considered it was 
 done. . ,■ :-^\ ^ :'".•■' ' ;.,,.■ ..^. 
 
237 
 
 Ques. Well, lias anything else since been done? Aus. No. 
 
 Ques. Nothing has been done in connection with the dock since ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Leary was back in the country afterwards after the 
 election, was he not ? 
 
 Ans. No, I think not. If he was I have never seen hira. 
 
 Ques. Well, you would know it, would you not ? 
 
 Ans. Most assuredly. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). Was he not here in February or March 
 in St John ? 
 
 Ans. Not to my recollection ; I have been in the woods most of the 
 time this winter. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Anyway if he was back here you didn't 
 know it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Well, in the ordinary course you would know it because you 
 were carrying on his business here 7 
 
 Ans. Well, I should think I would. 
 
 Ques. You were never before the Government in reference to the 
 matter ; you had nothing to do with the negotiations in that respect ? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. The only member of the Government you had anything to da 
 with in reference to it was Mr. Pugsley ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. As far as you knew he had charge of everything in connec- 
 tion with the contract ? Ans. That is what 1 supposed. 
 
 Ques. He seemed to do whatever he pleased with reference to 
 changing it and fixing it, did he not ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't know that I had any thought about that. 
 
 Ques, Well, as far as you knew he did not consult anybody about it 
 or never so informed you ? Ans. I knew nothing of it. 
 
 Ques. Well, as far as you knew he had charge of the whole thing? 
 
 Ans. I presumed so. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). With regard to Leary being down here this 
 winter, don't you remember some time my coming down to your house 
 to see Mr. Leary with the engrossed copy of the contract and getting 
 him to ratify it ? 
 
 Ans. Oh yes, because you had some doubts as to my authority to 
 sign the contract. 
 
 Ques. That was after the electioQ ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I had forgotten about it ; he was in my house and in 
 my room. 
 
238 
 
 'Quos. (Mr. llnnington). Uow long after tlio election was that? 
 
 Au8. I could not gay. 
 
 To Mr. Pugsley — I retuembor your expressing some doubts as to 
 'Whether my power of attorney was suflicient, and you wanted Leary to 
 ratify the contract personally by his own siguatuie. 
 
 Quos. That was an engrossed duplicate? 
 
 Ans. Yes, 1 recollect that you and Mr. Leary compared it and read 
 it over to see if they wore both alike. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). How long after the election ihat was you 
 don't kuo\\? 
 
 Ans. No ; until ho mentioned the circumstance it had entirely 
 passed out ot my mind. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). I tliink you referred to tho letter tiio 
 Provincial Secretary published in the St. John press about the 3rd of 
 January, stating that he was prepared to enter into a contract with 
 Leary at any time ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Now, I will ask you whether from that time on there was 
 ever any doubt expressed to you by myself or any person on behalf of 
 the trovernment that the contract or subsidy had been awarded to 
 Leary ? Ans. Not at all. 
 
 Ques. You took it for granted that that was the case? 
 
 Ans. Not at all sir ; not one particle. 
 
 Ques. Was not all that was to be done afterwards, merely putting 
 the contract in proper form ? Ans. Yes, completing it. 
 
 Ques. But as far as Leary was concerned you understood the con- 
 tract had been awarded to him ? 
 
 Ans. That the Order-in-Council was passed and the contract awarded 
 to him ? 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ads. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Without any conditions? Ans. Without any conditions. 
 Is Mr. Leary a gentleman of ample meaus ? 
 He is. 
 
 (Mr. Hanington). Where is ALr. Leary now ? 
 New York City. 
 
 (Mr. Pugsley). Is he not an experienced wharf builder and 
 contractor? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. For harbor improvements aud that sort ot thing? 
 Ans. Yes, I think he is, as far as wharf and dock construction is ecu- 
 cerned, he has a technical knowledge, and is a practical steamboat 
 builder, and has built revenue \ essels all over the United States, and 
 he is a practical ship builder by trade. 
 
239 
 
 Quee. Ho is a man whose busiuess takes liira largely into harbor 
 improvementB ? 
 
 Ana. Yea, he was an Inspector of Lloyds for many years, and lor 
 many years was engaged in some of tlie most important dock construc- 
 tions in Now York Ci(y. 
 
 Qucs. You Iield a power ol attorney for Mr. Lcary, under which 
 you were autlioiizcd to sign the contracts? 
 
 Ans. Yes; I aleo make large contracts for timber for Mr. Loary. 
 with McLean, and with Mr. King, and another largo operation at Gage- 
 town, involving large expenditures of money all the time. 
 
 Quea Did yuu over have any knowledge of Mr. I>iair having had 
 any arrangement or understanding with Leary or with anyone on his 
 behalf, under which Mr. Leary was to get this subsidy for the dry dock 
 in consideration ol his contributing to the Provincial olection.s? 
 
 Ans. No sir, never know or heard anything ol the kind. J saw Mr. 
 Blair last evening in the House and it was the first time I had seen him 
 for about a year ; the last time I saw him was when he was coming out of 
 the Troop building in St. John, when 1 was U. S. Consul. 
 
 Ques. Now, I will ask you whether you did not state to me as a 
 reason why you were desirous of having this contract actually signed, 
 it having been awarded to Leary that Sir John Macdonald had told Mr. 
 Leary to come to St. John and see what the City Council would do, and 
 get his contract with the Local Government and then come to Ottawa 
 and the Government would take up the matter of what amount of subsidy 
 the Dominion Government would give ? 
 
 Ans. 1 used that as an argument for the contract. When Mr. 
 Leary was in Ottawa ho saw Sir John Macdonald and some of the 
 members of his cabinet, I think it was early in December or November, 
 and they talked over the matter of harbor improvements. That was 
 alter the Common Council of the city of St. John made this first proposi- 
 tion to him. He then went to Ottawa, ho had business at Montreal 
 with Mr. Van Horn, and he saw Mr. Macdonald and he told me that Sir 
 John'a instructions were for him to go to St. John and see what he 
 could do with the city, then see what he could do with the Proviucal 
 Government and then you come up here about the middle of January 
 and we will see what we can do about fixing you out as far as the 
 Dominion subsidy is concerned. Just make up your party and come 
 about the middle of January. I urged that as a reason why there 
 should be no unnecessary delay in getting the contract. I think his 
 interview with Sir John Macdonald was about the last of November. 
 
240 
 
 Anyhow it was after the first meeting of the Common Council of the 
 City of St. John. With their encouragement he went to Ottawa. He 
 had met Sir John Macdonald before about a year ago this winter at 
 Montreal. 
 
 Ques. You say that early in January I informed you that the 
 Government were prepared to enter into a contract with Mr. Leary 
 whenever he was ready to enter into it ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And you say I drew up a contract and submitted a draft to 
 
 you 
 
 ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. The contents of which substantially you wrote to Leary ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And in that draft contract you say that Leary, if he had signed 
 it, would have been absolutely bound to go on and build the dock 
 whether he got a dollar of subsidy from the city or from the Dominion 
 Government? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that is the reason I contended so strongly for that saving, 
 clause, that in case he got no further subsidy he would not be obligated 
 to go on and spend a large sum of money. 
 
 Ques. Don't you remember that I said to you, the Government 
 would not think for a moment of holding him to such a contract if he 
 did not get the subsidies he expected, but the difficulty was to draw 
 up the contract so as to meet the case and deal fairly as between the 
 Province and Leary ? 
 
 Ans. I think 1 told you that I was just acting for Leary and I 
 Vci^ted it put beyond question, so that if he did not get any aid in 
 accordance with the promises held out, I wanted him to be in a secure 
 position and not at the mercy of any Government. 
 
 Ques. I think you said that about tiie ?Oth or 12tli of January I 
 told you I would prepare it with that saving clause in it? 
 
 Ans. That is ray recollection. 
 
 Ques. You think that was as early as the 10th or 12th of January ? 
 
 Ans. That is my recollection ; 1 have a very poor recollection of 
 dates, but events I can remember. 
 
 Ques. You say that subsequently, and you think on the 17th of 
 January, I sent you word that I had the contract ready as I had told 
 you I would have it prepared. 
 
 Ans. Yes, I went down and saw Mr. Trueman, and while I was 
 conversing with him you came in. 
 
 Ques. You have told us that you just got that contract in time to 
 go and catch the train ? Ans. Yes. 
 
241 
 
 Ques. I will ask you it it is not true that that C.P.R. train left St. John 
 at 4,10 standard ? Ans. I think about that ; that would be 4.46 local. 
 
 Ques. (Exhibiting Globe newspaper of January 17th). What time 
 according to that table did the C. P. R. train leave for Fredericton ? 
 
 Ans. 4.10 eastern standard time. That must have been the train 1 
 went on. The reason I know it was the C. P. R. train is that there 
 were a good many young men from St. John going up to Canada to the 
 school in Lennoxville — the parlor car was crowded with them. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Irrespective of public opinion and outside 
 pressure from any direction, this transaction that you had with the 
 Solicitor General about this contract was a strictly business transaction? 
 Ans. In every sense of the word. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). You said that you understood that Mr. 
 (t. R. Pugsley had bfeen retained by Mr. Leary as his solicitor? 
 Ane, Yos, Leary told me so. 
 
 Ques. Was that not in connection with the purchase of property ? 
 Ans. Yes, 1 say it was when he was buying the Sand Point property ; 
 it was to search the tides, Etc. 
 
 Ques. Did not Mr. Leary pay out in the vicinity ot ^20,000 for thoBC 
 properties ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I know that he paid over $20,000 for the Jewett, Mayes 
 iind other properties there. 
 
 Ques. Did not you understand that Mr. G. R. Pugsley was sick in 
 Boston for some 4 or 5 weeks before the election ? 
 Ans. I did ; that was the current report iu St. John. 
 Ques. And was not in St. John during the election campaign ? 
 Ans. I did not see him. 
 
 Ques. You rather spoke as if the office of G. R. Pugsley and mine 
 had separate entrances and no connection between the two ; is not 
 there a door common to both ? 
 
 Ans. There is a largo room and your office is at one end and iiis 
 office at tlje other after you go up a few steps and through a sort ot 
 long room, Thoy both form part of one suite of rooms. They have a 
 common entrance, that is into the middle office. 
 
 Qiies. (Exhibit). Now, will you look at the Fredericton CJleaner of 
 •liinuary 17th, 1890, and see what time the train leaves for St. John in 
 the afternoon? 
 
 Ans. It advertises to leave for Fredericton Junction connecting 
 with St. John train at 2.55. From St. John it says the train leaves at 
 4.10 for Fredericton, 
 16 
 
' ■;i'. ■ 
 
 242 
 
 Ques. You were asked by Mr. Hanington if you did not know that it 
 was the sending of the money to York that induced me to agree to put 
 in the saving clause ; was it ever intimated to you or did you ever hear 
 that any such reason as that influenced me ? 
 
 Ans. No, there was never any discussion between us except the 
 discussion as to the contents of the contract. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever know of any such money being sent ? 
 
 Ans. Never in my life. 
 
 Ques. You say that as early as the 10th or liith I told you that I would 
 have the saving clause put in ? 
 
 Ans, That is ray recollection, but so far as dates are concerned my 
 memory is poor. 
 
 Ques. You are quite sure that I told you several days before the 
 contract was actually signed that I would have the -saving clause put 
 in ? Ans. I am quite sure ol that. 
 
 Ques. You were asked as to what we discussed at different time. 
 Do you remember a discussion I had with you as to a provision that 
 the tolls should be approved of by the Governor in Council ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and I held that it was almost too much to leave in the 
 Governor in Council's hands. 
 
 Ques. Don't you remember that I insisted upon putting it in? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and 1 said they might consider Leary was charging too 
 much and put them down so low that it would be unprofitable for him. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). What did Mr. Pugsley say to that ? 
 
 Ans. He said that the interest of the Province demanded that every 
 safeguard should be thrown around the contract that possibly could be. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). Do you remember my discussing this point: 
 that I would insist that Leary should be obliged to operate the dock 
 for 20 years ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, that was not in the original draft. You put that in after 
 the first draft, and a further change you made was that the dry dock 
 itself should not cost less than $500,000. That was not in the origiuai 
 draft. 
 
 Ques. That is to say that it should be on the basis of A per centum 
 rper annum on the cost of construction ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You say that from the time the contract was sent to your 
 .house by a messenger from m^ ofiice, you barely had time by running 
 lo catch the train that evening for Fredericton ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And your intention was to go down to Gagetown next 
 tnorniDg ? Ans. Yes. 
 
248 
 
 in after 
 Iry dock 
 original 
 
 Iwn 
 
 Ques. And attend to work there for Leary ? Ana. Yea. 
 
 Ques. Had you been waiting in town some days for the completion 
 of this contract ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I had been waiting for nothing else. 
 
 Ques. You had duties there requiring your attention ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and urgent ones. 
 
 Ques. When you got to Fredericton you say that the heavy snow- 
 storm prevented you from proceeding to Gdgetown ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, they told me it was impossible to go. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). I think you told us the provision that the 
 dock should not cost less than $500,000 was not in the original draft- 
 Are you quite sure of that ? Ans. I am. 
 
 Ques. Did you see the Order-in-Council that said it should be on 
 that basis ? Ans. I did not. 
 
 Ques. As I understand you you did not wire to Leary that this 
 contract was signed ? Ans. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Ques. You would recollect it, would you not ? 
 
 Ans. I think I would. 
 
 Ques. But you left immediately, ran right for the train and came up 
 here? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And got the seal attached in the evening ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Had Mr. Leary any other agent in St. John that you know of? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Well, if the contract was signed as late as you say and you 
 came right here and did not wire him, can you account for this despatch 
 that the Hon. David McLellan read at the Institute that night from 
 New York. How long does it take you to get a despatch to New 
 fork and reply ? 
 
 Ana. It can bo done in half an hour. 1 have done it in that. 
 
 Ques. Well, after ofSce hours? 
 
 Aus. It can bo done just as quickly with Leary as anybody as he is 
 right handy to thd Hoffman house. 
 
 Ques. How did Mr. McLollan get this information : "I am pleased to 
 learn from ray agent that the Government have signed a contract with 
 me for the subsidy to the dry dock"? If he had no other agent, can you 
 teli me how he got that telegram from Leary ? 
 
 Ans. I certainly cannot. 
 
 Ques. Did you authorize anybody to put your name to such a des- 
 patch ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. How he got that despatch you don't know ? Ans. I don't. 
 
244 
 
 Ques. It did not get there by iuspiratioQ? 
 
 Ans. No, by insulation. 
 
 Ques. Did you say that Mr. Trueman looked over the contract with 
 you? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I said when I went down to Mr. Pugsley's office in the 
 morning Mr. Pugsley was not there, and Mr. Trueman was in the office 
 and he had the contracts, and while I was conversing with him about 
 getting the contract signed so that I could get away, Mr. William 
 Pugsley came in. 
 
 Ques. I understood you to say you had Trueman employed ? 
 
 Ans. When Mr. Gilbert Pugsley was sick in Boston and this real 
 estate matter came up — 
 
 Ques. But had you Mr. Trueman employed about this contract with 
 the Government ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then as far as you knew Trueman had nothing to do in 
 representing Leary about this contract? 
 
 Ana. Well, in Mr. Pugsley's absence in Boston, in regard to real 
 estate, he had. 
 
 Ques. Well, about this contract? 
 
 Ans. Well, I don't know thstt he had any direct connection. 
 
 Ques. Do you know of any other man in St. John that was his agent 
 in regard to this contract ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. From this telegram Mr. Leary, as I understand it, did not 
 know this saving clause was in till you sent him the contract? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't think he did. 
 
 Ques. Still it says that he wanted the Government candidates to 
 succeed in order to secure him a further subsidy. Then it was under- 
 stood by Leary in some way that if Government supporters were 
 elected that would aid him to get more subsidy ? 
 
 Ans. No, Leary's position always was tiiat unless ho got a certain 
 subsidy from the Province he would not go on with the work at all. 
 
 Ques. And whether he could get it or not would depend on whether 
 the Government measure to give it to hin) would be supported in the 
 house ? Ans. I don't know. 
 
 Ques. Well, how could ho get it unles.s it was supported by a 
 majority in the house? Ans. No, it would not depend upon that. 
 
 Ques. Did not Leary's getting additional aid depend on whether tlie 
 Government measure would get enough support or not ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). I want the witness to explain the 
 teason why? , 
 
245 
 
 Ans. Because in convorsatioQ with Mr. A, A. Stockton once or twice 
 with regard to if he said, Mr. Leary is in a very secure position here ; 
 it does not make any difference whether the Government candidates 
 are returned or not ; if we are elected we are just as much in favor of 
 docks as they are. He will stand just as well if we are elected as far 
 as subsidy is concerned as if we were not, and it would be very foolish 
 for him to take either side. I said that was my idea exactly because 
 both sides in their speeches favored harbor improvements — both sides 
 Tvere committed to dock and harbor improvements. That was the 
 substance of my conversation with Stockton several times. He further 
 ■said : I am interested in a wharf property here in St. John and we 
 want to improve it. Mr. Pugsley, Mr. Parks and Howard McLeod, we 
 all have an interest there, and we would like to interest Leary in that 
 property, and I said when I get time I will write to him to see what he 
 thinks of taking hold of harbor improvements at the head of the harbor, 
 I expressed to Leary over and over again that so far as the political 
 situation in St. John was concerned, both sides were in favor of harbor 
 improvements and docks, and it did not make any difference to Leary 
 which side succeeded because both sides were committed to the dock 
 scheme. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Yet you tell me that your getting further 
 subsidy did not depend on whether the Government measures would 
 get supported or not? 
 
 Ans. I understood you to ask whether it would make any difl'erence 
 as to whether the Government people were elected. 
 
 Ques. Well, that is not what I meant. The (question I ask you is 
 whether or not your getting additional subsidy did not depend upon 
 the Government getting sufhcieiit support in the House ? 
 
 Ans. I did not take any consideration of that. 
 
 Ques. Well, did not it depend upon it? Ans. I don't think so. 
 
 Ques. Don't the expenditure of public money have to be initiated 
 by the Government ? Ans. Most assuredly. 
 
 Ques. Then don't you know the measure initiating it could not bo 
 carried without it got enough support in the House ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, but — 
 
 Ques. Did you or did you not know — 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I ask that the witness be allowed to finish his 
 answer. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Did you not state all you wanted to in answer to that 
 question? Witness— No. 
 
2m 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Then you may explain. 
 
 Witness — What I intended to say was this : That no matter wlnf^T^ 
 candidates in St. John were elected, whether Government or Opposi- 
 tion, they both favored dock and harbor improvementB in the port of 
 St. John, and it made no difference which party succeeded, so far as 
 getting aid from the Government for carrying on those improvements, 
 was concerned. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Then you did know that unless the Gov- 
 ernment had supporters enough of that measure that you could not get 
 additional aid ? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. And you had the Government committed to this contract, 
 had you not? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. Then if they were committed to your contract, did you not 
 know it was their duty to try and carry it out on their part, as far as 
 the contract was concerned ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. You had understood from Mr. Pugsley that both he and 
 McLellau would do all they could personally to get additional aid — I 
 mean you understood that before the contract was signed ? 
 
 Ans. Why, that is in the contract. 
 
 Well, you had them committed to it? Ans. No. 
 
 Did not they tell you they would give additional aid if they 
 
 They did not tell me anything else but what was in the con- 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ques. 
 could ? 
 
 Ads. 
 tract. 
 
 Ques. Now, you tell us that you urged upon Mr. Pugsley to put 
 this clause in, the reason you gave him being that Sir John Macdonald 
 wanted Leary to see what the Local Government would do, and the 
 City, and then come up to him about the middle of January ? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you not know what the Government would do as to 
 additional aid, except by the vote of the Legislature, as early as the 
 first of January ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then how could Leary know any further what they would 
 do until the Legislature passed the Act ? 
 
 Ans. He could not know. 
 
 Ques. Tell me why it was that you wanted it done so that Mr. 
 Leary could go to Ottawa ? 
 
 Ans. Simply for Mr. Leary to go to Ottawa. He would have his 
 contract for $2560 subsidy there as evidence of what the Provincial 
 GoverDment had done, with a clause stating that it was a preliminary 
 
247 
 
 contract to one of further aid. And he wanted to show with that con- 
 tract what the city of St, John had done. 
 
 Ques. Leary represented to you that it was very important that 
 before Sir John Macdonald acted at all to know exactly what the 
 province would do? 
 
 Ans. No, he said he wanted to know what the province would do. 
 He wanted this contract as evidence that they were willing to grant 
 aid for improvements. 
 
 Ques. Did you not have the Order-inCouncil as early as the 30th 
 of December stating that the contract would be given, and also the 
 letter from the Provincial Secretary ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Had the Government undertaken to do more than that ? 
 
 Ans. No more than what is expressed in the contract. 
 
 Ques. Then what is expressed in the contract is more than that ? 
 
 Ans. It says it is conditional for further subsidy. 
 
 Ques. That is you need not do anything at all unless you got further 
 subsidy ? 
 
 Ans. No, but even with the $2500 he had the option of going on if 
 he liked. 
 
 Ques. Was it not that Leary need not do anything at all unless he 
 got further subsidy ? Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. That being so what further had you got from them as showing 
 Sir John Macdonald a pledge of the Government over and above what 
 you had got before ? Ans. Nothing whatever. 
 
 Ques. Then, when you urged him to sign this contract, so that you 
 might submit it to Sir John Macdonald in the middle of January, it was 
 to submit a thing that gave you nothing more than what you bad on 
 the 30th ? Ans. That is all. 
 
 Ques. You tell me tiiat Leary was in New York on the 17th ? 
 
 Ans. I could not say, 
 
 Ques. When did he go to Ottawa next? 
 
 Ans. T could not tell you ; whether he has been there once or a 
 dozen times. 
 
 Ques. Has he been there once since ? Ans. 1 don't know. 
 
 Ques. Then you got this contract u)ailed off in January, and you 
 have not heard of Leary being at Ottawa since ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Of course, if I rightly understand you, both sides in St. John 
 said they favored dock works? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Neither side bound themselves as to details of plans and 
 specifications ? Ads. No. 
 
248 
 
 Ques. The Government said they were to approve of your plans 
 and specifications, and your contract left it optional if you were not 
 satisfied with the contract to do nothing. And you have done 
 nothing? Ans. Only purchase some property. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). The only difference between the position 
 Leary occupied, as to the Government, after McLellan wrote this letter 
 to Mayor Lockhart, stating he was prepared to enter into a contract at 
 any time, and the position he occupied after the contract was signed 
 was that he would have at Ottawa this contract as evidencing the 
 agreement with the Government ? 
 
 Ans. That is what I tried to impress upon the Committee. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinney). Do I understand you you had a power of 
 attorney trom Mr. Leary ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever produce that to the Solicitor General and in- 
 form him how far that power of attorney extended ? 
 
 Ans. I think I did. 
 
 Ques. Before the execution of this contract ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, he either asked me or dropped me a line asking me if I 
 was empowered to execute a contract for Mr. Leary. 
 
 Ques. You never produced the power of attorney to himself? 
 
 Ans. Yes I did. 
 
 Ques. Are yoa clear about that? Ans. I am. 
 
 Ques. Before the execution of the contract? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And in view of the execution of this contract ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And he satisfied himself you had full power to execute it for 
 Leary ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. And do I understand you to say that you knew nothing about 
 money matters in connection with election affairs in St. John ? 
 
 Ans. Not at all. 
 
 Ques. Did you take an interest in the election there ? 
 
 Ans. Not at all : not one bit. 
 
 William Pugsley, called, sworn and examined: 
 
 He said : — I will state to the Committee, as briefly as I can, the con- 
 nection which I have had with the matter of the dock and harbor im- 
 provements at the port of St. John. Shortly after becoming a member 
 of the Government in the spring of 1889, I made enquiries as to the 
 position in which the subsidy of $2500 a year stood. I was aware that 
 that subsidy bad been provided for by an Act of 1882 and I bad under- 
 
249 
 
 stood that a dock company had been formed and incorporated by the 
 Legislature which had made an application for that subsidy. That was 
 the company of which Mr. A. A. Stockton, a member ior the City and 
 County of St. John, was as I understood, one of the promoters. 1 learned 
 on communicating with my colleagues that the Government was favor- 
 able to the granting of that subsidy but that there were certain 
 objections to the personnel of that company from the standpoint of a 
 number of them being meoibers of the Legislature and also owing to 
 their not being prepared to pay any money into the enterprise. 1 
 learned, however, from my colleagues and particularly from the leader 
 of the Gavernment, Mr. Blair, that the Government would be willing at 
 any time to grant this subsidy of ^2500 a year, as they were author- 
 ized to do by the Legislature, as soon as a responsible company . came 
 forward prepared to undertake the work. I spoke to some gentlemen 
 in St John in reference to the matter and I think in consequence of my 
 speaking to them they communicated with some persons — capitalists 
 iu the states. 1 may say that 1 had no personal interest in the matter 
 at all, but as a resident of St. John — during a part of the year at all 
 events for I reside part of the year in King's County — I felt that being 
 a property owner there and being desirous of doing anything I could 
 to advance the interests on the place, I thought the building of a dry 
 dock would be of very great benefit, but I also thought that if in con- 
 uection with the dry dock provision could be made for wluirf accommoda- 
 tion and warehouse accommodation and terminal facilities it would be 
 very much better than simply the building of a dry dock. I communi- 
 cated those views to some gentlemen who seemed disposed to interest 
 themselves in the matter. Subsequently iu the fall of the year 
 application was made to the Government on behalf of the St. John 
 Dock and Harbor improvement Co. The principal promoters of that 
 company wore Mr. James C. Robertson, of St. John, Air. John 11. Parks 
 was also one of them and some New York gentlemen who were friends 
 of Mr. Robertson — Jean Felix and Mr. Cochrane, of I'liiladelpliia a 
 banker, and Air. Crane, an iron merchant of New York, a very respect- 
 able gentleman, and Air. Vanslooten. In the fall of the year an applica- 
 tioii was made to the Government by them and in that application they 
 urged that the subsidy of S2500 a year for 20 years should be given to 
 them. And that in addition to that in consideration of the scheme 
 embracing large harbor improvements in addition to the dry dock, so 
 as to provide terminal facilities at St John, that an additional subsidy 
 should be given (To Mr. Haningtou I am not seeking to prove the con- 
 
250 
 
 tents of papers not here, the papers shall be furnished if needed). 
 These gentlemen also urged very strongly that at least $7500 a year 
 additional should bo given beyond the $2500 which was simply pro- 
 vided for a dry dock. The Government stated that their application 
 would bo considered. 
 
 Subsequently in December, 1889, the Mayor of St. John and a oom- 
 mittoo of tho Common Council waited upon the Government and the 
 representatives of the city urged very strongly that as they had made 
 a grant of .^10,000 a year to Mr. Leary, the Government should grant 
 to him the $2500 which was available for the dry dock, and that if any 
 additional aid were granted for harbor improvements it should be 
 granted to Mr. Leary because they had made a grant to hini and it was 
 felt to be absolutely essential that in order to secure tho^ie works that 
 the City of St. John, the Local Government and the Dominion Govern- 
 ment should work in harmony, because if one body should give a grant 
 to one company and another body a grant to another company, the 
 result would be that the whole enterprise would be tied up and nothing 
 done. 
 
 The Government 1 may say told the Mayor and the committee of tiie 
 Council and Mr. Leary that the matter would be considered. As one 
 member of the Government I felt that the City of St. John had selected 
 Mr, Leary and decided to give the contract to him subject to the ap- 
 proval of the plans and specifications that no other course was open to 
 the Government but also to give the subsidy to Mr. Leary, and 1 so 
 stated. 
 
 On the 31st December a letter was written to tho Mayor of St. John, 
 which is in evidence, stating that the Provincial Secretary was author- 
 ized to enter into a contract making immediately available tho $2500 a 
 year allowed by the Act of 1882, expressing sympathy with the eflorte 
 of the City of St. John in their desire to get those large improvements 
 but stating that no additional amount could be given or could be 
 promised until the Legislature met when they would be consulted and 
 the result of their action would be communicated to the Mayor. That 
 letter was communicated to the Mayor of St. John. A few day? 
 afterwards, or perhaps a day or two afterwards, I was informed 
 that the letter which the Provincial Secretary had written was not 
 satisfactory to the Common Council, that it had not specified that the 
 Provincial Secretary was prepared to enter into the contract with Mr. 
 Leary, it merely stating that the Provincial Secretary was authorized 
 to enter into the contract, and the feeling seemed to be unanimous so 
 
2A1 
 
 If 
 
 St. John, 
 fis author- 
 
 , $2500 a 
 the efforts 
 
 ovomellt^ 
 r could be 
 suited and 
 
 or. That 
 
 few day? 
 informed 
 was not 
 
 d that the 
 
 t with Mr. 
 
 authorized 
 nimous so 
 
 far aa ono could judge that aa the City Council had selected Loary the- 
 Local Government must and ought to give the contract to him. Owing 
 to the roprosentationa which were made to the Provincial Secretary, he 
 thought it desirable, and 1 may b; _ Miat I did too, to have itapecifically 
 stated that the Govyrnraent wore prepared to enter into a contract with 
 Leary, so that there would be Pi' doubt as to the person to whom the 
 Government had decidcu to i<;h'i the contract, ami that thoy were 
 prepared to do it in harmony with the City Council of St. John. On 
 the day the Provincial Secretary speaks of, the third of January, 1890, 
 when he says that ho telephoned to the Attorney Genera!, ho al.so 
 telephoned for me and I went over. He told me that he had telephoned 
 to the Attorney General asking his consent to give to tlie Mayor an 
 assuranfo^ oi a letter awarding the contract to Leary. That he had 
 received a reply that the Attorney General was perfectly willing. 
 The Provincial Secretary then told me to prepare the contract. I of 
 course was somewhat engaged in the election. I do not think it had 
 then been decided on whether I was to have a contest in King's County. 
 At all events I was engaged in the two Counties of St. John and King's, 
 but I had in my leisure begun to prepare the contract. When I bad 
 the draft completed I think I sent for Mr. Murray who I knew M'as 
 acting as Mr. Leary'a agent or attorney ; we dibcuased the terms of the- 
 contract and during the discussion, either the first time or the second 
 time I cannot just tell when, the question arose as to what the oflfect 
 would be of Mr. Leary signing the contract as 1 had drafted it, and 
 Mr. Murray said that it would bind Leary to go on at all events even 
 though he might not get a dollar of subsidy from the City of St. John 
 if they chose to change their minds, or if ho did not get any subsidy from 
 the Dominion Government. He said he thought it would bind him to 
 go on and incur this large expenditure in St. John simply on receiving 
 that subsidy of $2500 a year from the Local Government. Of course I 
 said to him that is not the intention. This contract is based upon the 
 idea that Leary is getting sufficient subsidy to enable him to go on with 
 his work, the $10,000 promised by the city, and it was understood (I do 
 not know whether through Leary or the members of the Council now) 
 that Sir John Macdonald had given an assurance to very liberally aid 
 him provided the City and Local Government would do something 
 in aid of the dock aa well. I recognized the force of his argument; 
 because we could not for a moment expect that he would go on build- 
 ing a dry dock and incur an expenditure of half a million dollars 
 simply on the getting of a subsidy of $2500 a year.. I did not know, 
 
252 
 
 hrwover, quite how to draw up the contract to moot the case at first, but 
 thinking the matter over I conchided that by putting a Having chiuso in 
 the contract it would meet Mr. Leary's views and it wouUl amply protect 
 the public interest. And I drew it as I thought in such a way that il 
 Leary did not begin working in 60 days the Government would have 
 the right to cancel the contract. If upon the other hand Leary did not 
 get additional aid which he expected so that he would not feel it advis- 
 able to go ahead, he would have the option of cancelling the contract 
 himself. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Du I understand you that that was in the 
 original contract? Ans. No, it was in the second one. 
 
 Ques. You have not spoken of sending the one to the Attorney 
 General as yet ? 
 
 Ans. No we have not got that far yet. (Continuing). However, 
 the result of my thinking the matter over was to put in that saving clause 
 and I may say that I drew the contract with tho greatest possible care 
 so far as protecting the public interest is concernad. I remember that we 
 discussed the matter of making tho tolls subject to tho approval of the 
 Governor in Council. Mr. Leary at first through Mr. Murray objected: 
 I insisted upon it being inserted ; I think when I first told him ho did 
 not agree to it and objected, then subsequently came back and ac- 
 quiesced in it ; in fact I told him I would not have it signed unlesii 
 that clause were in it, and I think I guarded the public interests in 
 every possible way. Then having the contract drawn with this saving 
 clause in it, I, if I remember rightly, spoke to the Provincial Secretary — 
 however I am not quite sure as to that — and asked him it' he woiiKl 
 sign th :> contract with Leary. He asked me if the Attorney General 
 had seen tho contract, and I said no. Ho said he would like if the 
 Attorney General would approve of it first, and I said as I undorptood 
 it tho matter was left with me, and you might trust me to draw it up 
 properly. Well, he said, ho would sooner the Attorney General ap- 
 proved of it. 1 then mailed the draft of contract as finally prepared 
 with the saving clause in it to the Attorney General, with a letter re- 
 questing him to look it over and if satisfactory to return it to me. I 
 cannot state how many days that was before the 17th of January be- 
 cause my recollection as to dates is not very good and I could not pre- 
 tend to remember as to dates on which the different events took place 
 that month, because I was very much engaged, as you can very easily 
 understand, in connection with the election. I did not hear anything 
 further from the Attorney General until I had a conversation with him 
 
253 
 
 on the Wedoosday evening at Ilarvoy, tliat is tlio Wodnoadny evening 
 which the Attorney General hah spoken of. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Mitchell). That would bo the 15th of Jnnuary ? 
 
 Ana, Yes, I think so. (Continuing). I will toll you how I came to 
 go to Harvey. There was among the friends of the Government in St. 
 John a desire, which was very strongly and generally expressed, to have 
 the Attorney General come to St. John and address a public meeting 
 in the Institute. He had never addressed a meeting in St. John and 
 was not personally known to a great many people. He was being very 
 roundly abused ; the candidates on the other side were vilifying him • 
 some spoke of him as a tyrant and as a little Bismark and all kinds of 
 expressions were used in reference to him, and it was alleged that ho 
 was hostile to St. John, and in fact the Sun came out on some occasions 
 stating that Mr. Blair had in York County stated that not one dollar ol 
 further aid would be given to St. John, beyond the $2500 provided for 
 by the Act of 1882, and a good deal of capital was being made out of 
 this. We all thought for these reasons it was very desirable that the 
 Attorney General should come to St. John and address a public meeting 
 in the Institute. Communications had been had with him and, as he 
 himself states, he felt it would be impossible for him to come. My im- 
 pression is that there had been telephonic messages sent to him at 
 Fredericton some days previously, urging him to come to St. John, but 
 he Avould not come. I think in fact there had been some misunder- 
 standing as to the advertisement which they had sent out, and some 
 mistake had been made in them. I would know with regard to the 
 notices, because I was frequently in the rooms of the Executive Com- 
 mittee, and in fact knew of what was talked of as to the meetings. 
 However, I was requested by some of the members of the Executive 
 Commiitee to go to Harvey, where it was known the Attorney General 
 was going to speak on that Wednesday night, and urge him in the 
 strongest possible manner to come to St. John and address this meeting. 
 It was felt that our friends would be greatly disappointed if he did not 
 come. While the matter was being talked of, it was intimated by some 
 oue, I cannot remember by whom, that if it would be any inducement 
 for him to come, our friends in St. John would be willing to render 
 some assistance in York. In that connection it was spoken of that 
 either one or more prominent men in St. John had sent $6000 or more 
 to York to help the Opnosition candidates. That was stated in that 
 connection. I went to Harvey by the evening train, which reached 
 Ibere after dark, and if I remember rightly, at about the time the- 
 
254 
 
 'meeting was opened. I had some conversation with the Attorney 
 General — some very brief conversation before the meeting commenced, 
 and I had some talk with him as well after the meeting. In that con- 
 versation I told him what the desire of our friends in St. John was. 
 That they were very desirous he should come down to address the 
 meeting and I urged him in the strongest manner I could. In that 
 connection I made the statement that I had no doubt from the talk I 
 had had with some of our friends that if he would come down they 
 would be willing to send up some money to assist in t' j election in 
 York. 1 think I mentioned about SIOOO and possibly a little more 
 He told me he could not say whether he would be able to come or not. 
 He said he had engagements in the County and that his friends were 
 very urgent that he should lemain ; he also said that if he went out of 
 the county and anything went wrong in the election the blame of it 
 would be laid on his shoulders and it would be said that he had gone 
 away when he ought to have been working in York County. However, 
 he said he would let us know next day. I returned home to St. John 
 the same night by the night train. Before I came away — I am not sure 
 whether this was in my conversation before or in that after the meeting — 
 I said to the Attorney : I sent you that draft contract between the 
 Government and Mr. Leary, which you did not return. He said to me : 
 By the way I have forgotten all about it ; to tell you the truth I have 
 not read it ; I have been so very busy in the election, i explained to 
 him in a general way what the provisions of the contract were, but not 
 going into the terms of it except in a general way. He did not express 
 any dissent from it. He, I think then told mo to telegraph to Mr, 
 Barry to have the contract sent to St. John, telling me that it would be 
 found among his papers either at his house or office. Tiiat is my im- 
 pression — and that I went to the telegraph office — he was busy talking 
 to the electors or addressing the meeting I don't know which — but my 
 impression is that he told me that I could send the message in his name. 
 He may possibly have written or signed the telegram. However, I know 
 that I did so and returned to St. John by the next train ; that would 
 be on the morning of Thursday the liith of January. The contract had 
 to be engrossed and a duplicate made of it. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Did you explain to the Attorney General 
 shortly the clauses of the contract? 
 
 Ans. Yes, shortly the clauses of the contract. 
 
 Ques. And the contract is as that draft which you sent to him ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I did not go into details. 
 
255 
 
 (Continuing). 1 came down to St. John by the next tniin as I told 
 you. The contract had to be engrossed ; I put it into the hands of 
 my typewriter with instructions to make fair copies and I think on that 
 day I dropped a line to Murray. 
 
 Ques. (Dr. Atkinson). Do you say that the contract was in 
 writing when you sent it to the Attorney General ? 
 
 Ans. When I say writing 1 may say that everything is generally 
 done on the typewriter and I am now on!}' speaking of the usual 
 custom in which things are done in my ofBco. (Continuing). As I 
 was saying I think on that day I dropped a line to Murray asking him 
 to call in and to execute the contract. It is quite possible I may not 
 have dropped a line to him until Friday morning, but I am under the 
 impression now that I did it on Thursday evening. However, on 
 Friday the contract was signed by Murray in duplicate as agent or 
 attorney for Leary. Murray produced to me at the time a document 
 of some kind — I do not know what it was — showing a general author- 
 ity from Leary to act for him, 'uut there was no specific authority to 
 execute this particular contract. It was a general authority probably, 
 I think a general power of attorney. It was also executed by Mr. 
 MoLellan, but just here my memory does not serve me where it was 
 executed by McLellaii, or what time in the day it was executed I could 
 not tell you. Of course I am not at all surprised at my not being 
 able to remember as it was getting pretty close to the election and 
 there were a great many things to attend to. I was being consulted 
 by various people, and meetings were held and therefore I am not sur- 
 prised that the time it was executed or the place where it was executed 
 should pass out of my mind. After McLellan signed it I remember 
 :sending it to Murray's house wilh a memo from the Provincial Secretary 
 to ^Ir. Tibbits to affix the seal. I may say that I remember Murray 
 stated to me that he was going up river to Fredericton or Gagetown, I 
 don't remember where now, but he asked if he could not take it and 
 have the seal attached. To which I saw no objection and I thought it 
 necessary to have a memo from the Provincial Secretary to Mr. 
 Tibbits to have the seal attached, which Mr. McLellan wrote and I sent 
 that with the contract to Mr. Murray, I kept the duplicate signed by 
 Murray in my own office. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). Do you say that McLellan signed the 
 duplicate? 
 Ans. I don't remember exactly as to that ; there was no particular 
 
256 
 
 reason why I should not have sent the duplicate to fyle at Predericton. 
 But I laid it away in my own office and subsequently, I could not tell 
 you when but it was after the election, I heard of Mr. Leary being in 
 the City himself, and I thought better as this was a public document 
 to have the power of attorney attached to the document showing 
 Murray's powers, or to have the signature of Leary himself to show 
 its due execution by Murray. I therefore called at Mr. Murray's house 
 — ray impression is that Mr. Trueman was then with me but I am not 
 sure — at all events I called at Mr. Murray's house and I got Leary to 
 sign a ratification of Mr. Murray's execution of the contract and I then 
 sent it to Fredericton requesting Mr. Tibbits to have the seal of the 
 Province attached to the duplicate and to get Mr. McLellan's signature 
 to this engrossed duplicate and to fyle it for further reference as it 
 would be necessary of course to have it on fyle. That is the history 
 with regard to the signing of the contract and the contract itself. 
 
 With regard to the granting of additional aid I have no hesitation in 
 saying that I always, both publicly and privately stated that as far as I 
 was concerned I would advocate in the strongest manner possible the 
 granting of additional aid for harbor improvements in St. John. I 
 stated that to be so in my card published to the electors of King's 
 County. I stated it upon many of the platforms in St. John. I stated 
 it privately when spoken to on the subject and I never expressed but 
 the one opinion — that in my opinion additional aid ought to be given, 
 and that I for one would insist as far as I had any influence in the 
 strongest manner possible to have this additional aid granted. I look 
 that view early in the contest, when I issued my card to the electors of 
 King's County, the moment the writs were issued. I put that forward 
 on many a platform and never varied from it, and no man can say I 
 ever made a private statement or public statement with reference to 
 the subject ditl'erent from that which I have made on the public 
 platforms. 
 
 With regard to the sending of this $1500 to York County, that was 
 talked over as 1 said and aftor I I'cturned to St. John on Thursday 
 morning I stated to some of the committee, I think to Alderman Kelly 
 among others, that the Attorney General thought he would be able 
 to come to St. John but he had not decided to, and subsequently in 
 the day word came from him that he would be down to address the 
 public meeting in the Institute. The matter of sending this money to 
 York was spoken of, and Mr. Kelly stated he would attend to that 
 
257 
 
 himself. He told me he would send it up by the evening train. T 
 think he said he would take it himself on Thursday evening. In 
 consequence of what he told me I telephoned to Barry that there would 
 be a messenger up from St. John and for him to see him. I supposed 
 that whatever this messenger took up to Mr. Barry would be delivered 
 to him that night. I never heard or knew of any condition whatever 
 with reference to the handing of it over. I never know and I did not 
 know that Kelly intended waiting until anything took place next day 
 and when he told me that the messenger was going up that evening I 
 supposed it would be delivered to Mr. Barry that evening. I may say 
 as to the sending that it had nothing whatever to do with reference 
 to the execution of the contract with reference to the dry dock. Such 
 a thing was never intimated to me ; such a thing was never suggested 
 to me ; but it sill took place in the way 1 have described. So far as 
 Mr. Blair is concerned I had never intimated to him, until that eveninw 
 at Harvey station, nor suggested in any way that funds would he con- 
 tributed to assist in his election from St. John. The subject of con- 
 tributing funds for the election was never mentioned between us. It 
 was never at any time mentioned in connection with the dock, nor 
 was it ever mentioned in connection with the signing of the contract 
 in any manner at all. On the day the Attorney General came to St. 
 John 1 did not see him until dark. I called up at the hotel — my im- 
 pression is that it was after dark before I saw him on that day ; a lot 
 of other people were there, different ffiends were calling to see him 
 and I was not alone with him at all. Aiid after a few minutes conver- 
 sation with him in the presence of the others I left and did not see him 
 again until I met him at the Institute. I may say that anything I did 
 in connection with the awarding of this contract to Leary or in makinir 
 the contract, I was simply actuated by the desire to advance the in- 
 terests of St. John. I had no private niterest in the matter directly or 
 indirectly and no interest whatever in it either directly or indirectl}. 
 I thought Mr. Leary was a good man, a competent man to undertake 
 these works; he had the repntation of being a practical man, and a 
 man of wealth, and I felt it would be very much in the interests of 
 the public that a man like him, with capital, should get hold of these 
 works in St. John. That I think is all I have to say unless some 
 gentleman of the Committee desires to ask me questions. 
 
 17 
 
258 
 
 Gross Examined by Mr. Hanington. 
 
 Ques. Have you got that draft contract with you that you sent the 
 Attorney General ? Ans. I have not. 
 
 Ques. You know this clause — and this question of auieudmeiit 
 which has been before the Committee? 
 
 Ans. What you call the saving clause, yes. I presume the draft of 
 that is in my office at rft. John. 
 
 Ques. You took no trouble to get it up here ? 
 
 Ans. Not the slightest. 
 
 Ques. You knew the Provincial Secretary was interrogated us to 
 it? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. There was ample time to have got it here ? 
 
 Ans. If I thought for a moment it was required. 
 
 Ques. Who is right, you or Murray when he says you did not 
 seek to put that in at all till some lU or 12 days? 
 
 Ans. I did not understand him to say 10 or 12 days, I understood 
 him to say 10th or 12th January that I consented to put it in. 
 
 Ques. That is what you understood him to say ? 
 
 Ans. That is what I understood him to sa^' and swear. 
 
 Ques. Do you say that is correct? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 could not say as I told you before as to dates. 
 
 Ques. Did you not hear him say that it was a fortnight after the 
 first draft was drawn ? 
 
 Ans. I did not understand him to say that but I understood him to 
 say that it was about a fortnight irom the time the lirst draft was 
 drawn until the contract was tinally signed, that is what I understood 
 him to say. 1 understood him to say it was about the 10th January or 
 the 12th January that I put it in. 
 
 Ques. Do you say that ? 
 
 Ans. I cannot say, I cannot remember. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear that the draft is exactly the same as the 
 contract is now when you sent it to the Attorney General '{ 
 
 Ans. That is my belief. I will swear to the best of my recollectiou 
 and belief it is the same. I have not seen it since. I cannot remember 
 dates and the reason for saying I believe it to be the same is that I 
 do not remember makmg any alterations in it after it came back from 
 the Attorney or rather after it came back from Fredericton. I cau 
 remember facts but not dates. 
 
 ' A 
 
25JI 
 
 nt the 
 dinent 
 
 I raft of 
 
 id as to 
 
 did uol 
 lev stood 
 
 after the 
 
 >d bim to 
 
 Iraft was 
 
 vdcrstood 
 
 linuary or 
 
 as the 
 
 [coUectiou 
 [•emember 
 is tbat 1 
 jack from 
 III. I ca" 
 
 Ques. Is your memory so good that you will say that you did not 
 put that clause into it after it came back from Fredericton ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I will swear it was in the contract as sent the Attorney, 
 and I will say that I mentioned that to the Attorney General that there 
 was a provision of that kind in it. 
 
 Ques. And that clause is exactly now as it was then, will you 
 swear that ? 
 
 Ans. I think so. 1 think it is to the best of my recollection. 
 Ques. A few words of change in that about the additional subsidy 
 would change the whole purport of it ? 
 
 Ans. I do not believe 1 changed a word in it. 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not? 
 Ans. That is as much as I can swear. 
 
 Ques. You hcaid him swear it Avas some considerable time after 
 he first saw it when you agreed to change it? 
 Ans. He said it was some little time. 
 
 Ques. He says he saw you some 3, 4 or 5 times and there was a 
 day or two between each time, did you hear him say that? 
 Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Are you prepared to say to the contrary if he did say that? 
 Ans. It is not true according to my view. 1 made no great ob- 
 jection to the change in it because that was our opinion aud the dif- 
 ficulty was to do it, that was our intention. 
 
 Ques. You knew that the Order-in-Council does not say any such 
 thins;? Ans. It does not mention it. 
 
 Ques. Nor does the Provincial Secretary's otticial letter ? 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Then whose intention was it ? 
 
 Ans. Mine, and it was well understood by all the members of the 
 Government that unless Leary should get a subsidy from the Dominion 
 Government aud the City of St. John, it would not go ahead. 
 
 Ques. I ask you if the Government does not speak its intention by 
 its orders ? 
 
 Ans. You know as well as I do. You were a member of the Gov- 
 ernment yourself and know as well as I do. It is a matter of con- 
 stitutional law in respect to which I am not supposed to give any 
 opinion. 
 Ques. Will you swear you do not know ? ' 
 
 Ans. I tell you I do not propose swearing about it. . , • .< 
 
260 
 
 Ques. Do you uot know that the only mode a Government can 
 spe ik is through its orders as to its intentions. 
 
 Ans. That is the only mode in which it can bind the Province. 
 Ques. Or bind the Government as a Government ? Ans. Yes. 
 Ques. And the Order-in-ConncM had no such condition in it? 
 Ans. I think not. 
 
 Ques. Then you by Order-in-Council order an absolute contract 
 without condition, with an understanding among yourselves that you 
 were pledged to do something yourselves? Ans. No. 
 Ques. You said it was understood among you all ? 
 Ans. Wait till 1 tell you what I have said. It is this — that it is 
 well understood that while Mr. Leary might go on and complete those 
 works with the $2500 provided by the Government, provided ho get a 
 sufficient amount from the Dominion in addition to the subsidy from 
 St. John, yet it was well understood that unless he got somewhat of .^ 
 subsidy be\'ond the mere $2500 he could not go on with the v^'ori:— 
 that was what was well understood by every member of the Govern- 
 ment. 
 
 Ques. Was it understood that in order that he could go on with 
 the Avork he should get additional subsidy trom the Province ? 
 Ans. Not necessarily. 
 Ques. Is this contract drawn that way ? 
 
 Ans. No, if he does not go on we are not bound to give hira a 
 dollar. 
 
 Ques. Then you say that the understanding was he might go on if 
 he got other aid, but does not that say he is not bound to go on unless he 
 does get further aid? Ans. Clearly so. 
 
 Ques. Then was theie any understanding on the part of the Gov- 
 ernment that he was to have it from the Province ? 
 
 Ans. No understanding that he should have it from the Province, 
 the Government did not bind themselves in any way to give him further 
 aid. The letter of the Provincial Secretary of 31st December stutes 
 the views of the Council as to that. 
 Ques. It is absolute, is it not? 
 
 Ans. It refers to further aid that might be given when the Legis- 
 lature was consulted, 
 
 Ques. You told us that by the Order-in-Council that he should be 
 relieved from the work provided he did not get aid from the Do- 
 minica ? Ans. The Order-in-Counoil speaks for itself. 
 
2t)l 
 
 lit can 
 
 fes. 
 
 )ntract 
 lat you 
 
 lat it is 
 ,e those 
 le g«t a 
 Lly from 
 hat of ? 
 wori'.— 
 Govevn- 
 
 on 
 
 \Yith 
 
 vc hii -1 a 
 
 CO 
 
 on if 
 hnless he 
 
 Itho Gov- 
 
 I'roviuce, 
 In further 
 )GV states 
 
 le Legis- 
 
 thouicl be 
 the Do- 
 
 Ques. I am not speaking about the Order- in-Council— you said he 
 iieed not go on with the work unless he had aid from Ottawa? 
 
 Ana. I did not say that. 
 
 Ques. What did you say? 
 
 Ana. I said that it was well understood that while he might go on 
 with the $2500 subsidy provided he got additional aid from the City of 
 St. John and the Dominion Government, yet it was well known and 
 understood that unless he got a Dominion subsidy and a City subsidy 
 be could not g . on simply with the Provincial subsidy — that is what 
 I said. 
 
 Quos. With the $2500 provided for by the Order-in-Council, and 
 then aid from the City and aid from the Dominion of Canada to the 
 extent of $30,000, was it understood that he need not go on ? 
 
 Ans. It was generally understood he would go on if that was tho 
 case. 
 
 Ques. Does not this contract relieve him unless he gets further help 
 from the Province in the matter, even if he got $50,000 from the 
 Dominion Government? Ans. There is the 60 days. 
 
 Ques. Answer my question? Ans. At the end of 60 days. 
 But does not that give him the option of going out? 
 Certainly it did give him the option of retiring from the 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans, 
 contract 
 Ques. 
 Ans. 
 
 Then it did relieve him ? 
 
 No relief about it ; the contract would be void. It did not 
 relieve him ; it simply provided that he had the option of retiring from 
 the contract if he did not get sufficient aid. 
 
 Ques. Does it not provide that he could retire if he did not get 
 additional Provincial aid? Ans. Yes, 
 
 Ques. When did you draft that contract? 
 
 Ans. About the time the Provincial Secretary wrote that letter to 
 the Mayor on the 3rd January, and it might have been a day or two 
 afterwards — it would be almost simultaneously. 
 
 Ques. Did you agree that it should be changed until he had got 
 back word from Mr. Leary r 
 
 Ans. I have no knowledge of his getting any word from Mr. 
 Leary at all. 
 
 Ques. Then, if I understand you rightly, you said you were up in 
 King's County, and did not know when you would be back? 
 
 Ans. 1 was not in King's County. To tell the truth I did not want 
 
262 
 
 to stir up opposition there, bnt I said it had not been decided I would 
 not have oppositiou. I did net say I was in King's County. 
 
 Ques. But wore you up there? 
 
 Ans. Yes. My present impression is that from the time the writs 
 were issued, until nomination day, I only weut up into the County 
 once or twice — I had something else to do — correspondence and 
 things of that kind. I went once, almost immediately after the writs 
 were issued, to Sussex, by the evening train, leaving St. John ten 
 minutes past five, and found the feeling there pretty good, and then 
 returned to St. John by the night train. I then remained in St. John 
 till 
 
 Ques. Then you went out into the County of St. John and made 
 speeches, did you ? 
 
 Ans. I do not think that 1 spoke in the County at all. My time 
 was principally spent in the City of St. John, and I was devoting con- 
 siderable attention to speaking at night. 
 
 Ques. And managing election matters? 
 
 Ans. I was assisting to manage. 
 
 Ques. You had au Executive Committee there, and you were part of 
 that 1 Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Had you nothing to do with the finances i Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Nothing to do with their management? 
 
 Ans. Not one iota. 
 
 Ques. Do you know how the money was raised? 
 
 Ans. No, I know nothing about the money being raised, only what I 
 heard. I object to stating what I heard. 
 
 Ques. You have told us part of a conversation about the raising of 
 money to send Mr. Blair, and then you swore a little while ago that 
 they said that $6000 was sent by the other side to York. I want to 
 know who was there at that time? 
 
 Ans. Kelly was there and some other members of the Executive 
 Committee but who they were I really do not know. I cannot re- 
 member any of the others except Kelly. There were others in the 
 room at times, Mr. R. B. Humphrey and Mr. John McMillan and the 
 candidates were there. I cannot remember any other person but 
 Kelly being there just at that time. There may have been several 
 there but I cannot tell who they were. The sending the $6000 to 
 York was spoken of in the committee room. At that time there were 
 others passing in and out and little knots of people around attending 
 
263 
 
 to one thing or another, and I cannot place the difterent persons who 
 were then present at that conversation. The $6000 was spoken ot 
 generally in the room. I have not any recollection of who said it. 
 
 Ques, Did you not say that in this conversation that it was spoken 
 ot sending money to York, that somebody said the other side were 
 sending $()()0() to York. Did you not swear that? 
 
 Aus. I did not intend to say that it was just ut that particular 
 moment. It was not at the same conversation that the $1500 was 
 spoken of; it was in that connection. 
 
 Ques. But in the conversation did you not say it was spoken of 
 sending money to York, that there was $6000 spoken of as being sent 
 for the Opposition, and that it was right to send to the Attorney, or 
 words to that effect? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Tell me who it was that said that $6000 would be sent to 
 York? Can you tell me that? Ans. 1 cannot tell you that. 
 
 Ques. Do you know of any money being sent to York by the Oppo- 
 .sitiou ? Ans. Not of my own knowledge. 
 
 Ques. You had no knowledge of any money being sent to York by 
 the Goveiiiment party ? 
 
 Ans. 1 know what I have told you simply and that is what Kelly 
 said he would send — the $1500. 
 
 Ques. Did he sa}' that at the meeting he spoke of there? 
 
 Ans. I don't know whether it was that meeting or some other 
 raoetiiig — I cannot remember, but I know he said that. 
 
 Ques. VVho was present beside you and him when he said that? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you. It was in the Executive Committee 
 lootn ; there were a good many people coming in and going out. 
 
 Ques. When I ask you who was present ? 
 
 Ans. 1 don't remember. 
 
 Ques. Was it spoken of more than once by you and Kelly? 
 
 Ans. It was spoken of before I went up to Harvey, and then it was 
 spoken of after I returned. 
 
 Ques. That being so it must have been spoken of twice? 
 
 Aus. Y'es. 
 
 Ques. Was Kelly present on both times? 
 
 Ans. Yes both occasions. 
 
 Ques. Now tell me who else was present beside you and Kelly? 
 
 Ans. I don't remember. •, . , 
 
 Ques. Was Carvel I there — was Quinton there ? ., .: ..' • 
 
264 
 
 Ans. They were out of the committee room and in. 
 
 Ques. Were they taking part in the conversation ? 
 
 Ans. I don't remember. 
 
 Ques. You cannot remember whether Quinton was there ? 
 
 Ans. Not at that particular time. 
 
 Ques. Can yen remember whether McMillan was there at that 
 particular time, or either of those times you have mentioned" 
 
 Ans. My impression is that McMillan was there on the first oc- 
 casion when it was spoken on before I came up to Harvey. 
 
 Ques. Did he say he would assist iu it? 
 
 Ans. I don't remember him doing so. 
 
 Ques. Did he take any part in that conversation ? 
 
 Ans. I don't remember. 
 
 Ques. Was there nobody but Kelly then that talked about it ? 
 
 Ans. I don't remember about that. 
 
 Ques. Do you not know that Kelly was very anxious for the docks ? 
 
 Ans. I have no reason to suppose he was more anxious than a 
 thousand other people. 
 
 Ques. Answer my question. 
 
 Was he anxious for the docks or 
 
 He seemed to be. 
 One of the most anxious men for the docks in St. John, was 
 
 not? 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. 
 he not ? 
 
 Ans. Really 1 don't know ; there might have been others that I 
 did not meet that were more anxious. How do you think I could 
 tell that? 
 
 Ques. I ask you from your own knowledge? 
 
 Ans. I have only to judge of people from what they say and do. 
 
 Ques. You don't know that I am speaking of your own knowledge? 
 
 Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me as far as you know ? 
 
 Ans. How could I judge of that, 
 
 Ques. As you say from what you heard and saw them do > 
 
 Ans. He appeared to be anxious to see these public works go ou. 
 
 Ques. He was anxious for Leary to have the contract ? 
 
 Ans. I don't know that he was anxious for him to have it ; he told 
 me he was in favor of Leary getting it and told me that Leary he 
 thought ought to have the contract. 
 
 Ques. He told you Leary ought to have the contract aud favored 
 
 j^^^^t 
 
965 
 
 his getting it, and still you don't know whether he was anxious for it 
 or not ? Ans. He seemed desirous for Leary to liave it. 
 
 Quos. Kelly is a ma.i of considerahle inlluence there, is lie not? 
 Ho employs a good deal ol' labor V 
 
 Ans. Kolly is supposed to have some influence in his own ward 
 and is a rann very much respected in the City generally, and very 
 highly thought of, 1 think. 
 
 Qufs. 'I'hat being so was he not in .support of the Government'' 
 
 Ans. I always understood that he was at least during this campaign. 
 
 Ques. Did he not tell you and did you not hear that he said his 
 politics principally were for this dock business? 
 
 Ans. No, he never intimated such a thing to me. More than that 
 he told me ho was going to support the Government long before the 
 dock mutter was spoken of generally. Mr. Kelly is a man who, once 
 he says he will do a thing will do it. 
 
 Ques. How long before you went up to see the Atteruey General 
 was it that Kelly told you he would send the money up? 
 
 Ans. My recollection is that he did not say he would send it up 
 positively, on that day. It was when I returned after seeing the 
 Attorney General he said that he would send it. 
 
 Ques. About what time did you go to sec the Attorney General :' 
 
 Ans. I went on the evening train. 
 
 Ques. Did he say "We will send it" or "I will send it" or "I will 
 contribute"? Just tell us his words as near as you can ? 
 
 Ans. My recollection is that he said if the Attorney General would 
 come down and address the public meeting that he had uo doubt he 
 would bo able to send as much as $1000 up to York. I can't give his 
 exact words. 
 
 Ques. Because you thought if the Attorney General came down it 
 would help the Government ticket — wasn't that it? 
 
 Alls. I presume that was the object of having him come. 
 
 Ques. And the stronger the Government supporters were then the 
 greater probability ot having them give this additional subsidj' I 
 
 Ans. That question does not arise. 
 
 Ques. Will you swear you did not mention to Kelly anything that 
 day on the subject of the contract to the docks or he to you ou that 
 Wednesday? 
 
 Ans. No, 1 won't swear that ; I don't think I did nor him to me. 
 
 Ques. You had not the slightest talk on the subject? • . :.: 
 
266 
 
 Ans. Nothing about it attvll as far as I can roniombor. 
 
 Ques. Then when you wont up tlioro had you any intention of getting 
 the contmcit? Ans. No, it was not in my mind wlion I went. 
 
 Ques. Xor before you went? 
 
 Ans, Well, I tell yuii this : I was wondering wiiat was keeping the 
 contract, I was expecting it every day by mail. 
 
 Ques. You had no intention then of going to see about tliat ? 
 
 Ans. 1 did not go to see about tliat. 
 
 Ques. Did you telegraph about it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. Did you tolophono for it ? Ans. No. 
 
 Ques. But you went to the Attorney General to Harvey ;ind got 
 authority to sign a telegram for it ? 
 
 Aus. My recollection is thiit I wrote the telegram on his communi- 
 cating to mo where it would be found. 
 
 Ques. However, you sent the telegram in his name for it? 
 
 Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Tlien it c.une down to St. John on the IGth? 
 
 Ans. I presume it reached there on the evening of the 16tli or on 
 the afternoon train of the IGth. !t might possibly have reached rit. 
 John early on the I6th. 
 
 Ques. And you had it written out, and executed, but the time it was 
 executed, the next day, you don't know ? 
 
 Ans. No, I could not tell you exactly. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember seeing the Provincial Secretary before 
 noon or about noon of the day you got it and got his promise that iio 
 would complete it whenever you brought it to him? 
 
 Ans. No, I don't remember that ; but it is not because my memory 
 is bad — as I said I cannot remember dates but can facts. 
 
 Ques. You heard the Attorney General's evidence ? Ans. Yo^. 
 
 Ques. Did you hear him say that he had no recollection of discuss- 
 ing the contract with you? Ans. I don't think ho said that. 
 
 Ques. Did not he say that he had not examined it? 
 
 Ans. He said he had not time to look at it. 
 
 Ques. Did not he say that he bad not any discussion with you at all ? 
 
 Ans. We did not speak very much ; I know I said to iiim in :i 
 general way what its provisions were. 
 
 Ques. If what he says is correct it must have been in a very short 
 way ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, his recollection would not be so good on that point as 
 mine as he was very busy with his meeting. 
 
267 
 
 QuoH. nid you go in again in tlio loronoon, or about noon, to the 
 exocutivo rooms and tell t!jo Provincial Socrotary tlmt tlie contract was 
 ready, and did lio say that ho woidd Hijjjii it when you hronglit it to him? 
 
 Ans. 1 simply romomlicr tho fact of tho conti'act hoing signed on 
 that day, and that is all I romcnd)or. 
 
 Quea. You hoard tho Provincial Secretary swear, that is a lact, that 
 ho saw you on tlmt morning? 
 
 Ana. I havo no doiiht what ho said is true, but I don't reniiMnber it. 
 
 (.^uos. Then your memory must bo bad as to tacts? 
 
 Ana. 1 told you that L might forget tho date but 1 have a good 
 memory for hiots ; still I don't protend to say that L did not forgot 
 something that occurred some two months ago. 
 
 (^ues. Did you toll tho Attorney General that they had sent the 
 money? Ans. I did not tell tho Attorney (ienoral as to that. 
 
 Qucs. Would it not have boon a matter of congratulation for you to 
 liavo let him known that ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was late when 1 saw him in St. John and I don't think 
 I informed him ; in fact I am sure I did not. It was enough, I thought, to 
 havo lot him know that some oi his friends in St. John were willing to 
 assist him. 
 
 Ques. You had no intention to conceal anything from him, had you? 
 
 Ans. No. 
 
 Qucs. Then when he came to St. John why did you not toll him 
 about tho S1500 which had been sent up to help carry tho York elec- 
 tion ? You say that you had no intention to conceal anything from him ? 
 
 Ans. There was no necessity for my concealing it irom him. 
 
 Ques. And therefore it was that you did conceal it from him? 
 
 Ans. I did not conceal it from him. 
 
 (^uos. Well, you did not tell him about it ? 
 
 Ans. That is not concealing ; concealing is something you are keep- 
 ing back designedly. 
 
 <^ues. Did you not think of it in his presence in St. .John ? 
 
 Ans. Never thought of it. It did not occur to me. I do not now 
 remember that I thought of it. I would not swear I did not, but I did 
 not think it a matter of consequence. 
 
 Ques. How did you know to send it to Barry? 
 
 Ans. I knew that he was looking after the election in York. I 
 knew that as it came down in a letter from Mr. Barry to a friend in St. 
 John, who had shewn it to me, asking him to look after some non- 
 resident electors, and I had a very shrewd suspicion that if the money 
 
>AiH 
 
 sviis s(Mit, to I'liiiy tliiit li(> u'diild n()(\ to i(, Inr tlm |»iirly, mid I ("olt it, 
 wiiH j-iuloclly Hiilc ill s()ii(liiit>; if. to liiin. I do not, know tliiit. lit; liiul ;iiiy 
 l:ir^(!r huiii, mid I iicvcu- iii(|uir(Ml liow iiiii(;li. I did not unk liiin if lii> 
 had oilier I'lindH no idoii as to that at all. 
 
 QntiH. Then do yoii tell iiir Ihatwdioii yon sent up that iiionoy to 
 him that you had no i(h'a he liad not char;;!' ol other (iiimieoH? 
 
 Ans. Ve.s. I did not know, as I said I liad a suspicion it woidd he 
 all ri^^hl. 
 
 (.^iies. Did yon not know tiial this was a must soiiouH oH'oniK! agiiiust 
 the laws of the eounlry '! Ans. No. 
 
 <.,)U(3S. Was iiol, the siMidin^' of nioiHty to iiillueiiee voids and lla^ 
 (d(!(!torH a most sorious oironce ? 
 
 AiiH. It waH to li(dp in llm election to pay elei'tion (^.xpenseH. 
 
 QuoH. Will you swear that you hail any idea ol' eonlininu it to tliiit; 
 you know that it would not take auytliiufj; like that ^LIDO to pay such 
 ex|)(!iis(!H, and that it was lor rofVoslunoiitH or hriljoiy '! 
 
 AuH. Well, i know in St. doliu that the lof^itimiito oloction oxpeUHOs 
 aru a {^roat deal morn than $1500. 
 
 QuoH, I am not asking you alxmt St. John — • will you swoar that 
 you bolioved at thiit timo tln^ inoiu'y was only to ho oxpcMidod in lawful 
 election exjuuiHes V 
 
 An«. It did not occur to n)e ono way or the other. 
 
 t^uoH. Whether tolio Hpont tor lawful or unlawhd pur|K)scs ? 
 
 AuH. No. I thought fcliiit might fairly bo lolt to tlu; di8(;rotion of 
 •Mr. Barry. 
 
 QuoH. If it WHH for unlawful purposes (do you not know it would he) 
 it would he sullicient to disfrancluHO 3'our loader for seven years, aiid 
 that it was a nice |»osition (or tho Solicitiu' Cicnoriii of (he I'roviiu-c to 
 put his ieaihir in ? 
 
 Ans. I should think it would bo a, vury improper thing to do, i! il 
 were an unlawful act, and it would bo 11 very improper thing to d > an 
 unlawful act,. Hut there was nothing unlawful in Hending the moiu^y, linw 
 jMr. Harry would disposo (d'tlie money wouM be a very dilferont nialtei. 
 
 QuoK. TIkmi, ill your opinion, tlioro was nothing unlawful or im 
 propor in doing it - then why <li(l you not toll tho Attornt^y (ioiicral 
 at St. •John about it, and satisty him as to it. and not loavu him in 
 doubt ? 
 
 Ahh. iJocauHC tlioH! wori! otlior nmttorH to Hponk of, mid thore wa-* 
 no objoct in spoiiking about it. Tbcre wero ti grout many other thiiipH 
 to flpoak of, and tlitit cue did not iiriBu. 
 
269 
 
 (.^•r.oH. !f for luwiul j)iirp(irii)H, tlicn it would liiivo boon i^nitifyiii}^ to 
 liiin to know lliat IiIh CriondM liad jj;ivi'ii liiin n prosfdit ot $1500 ? 
 
 AiiH. I did not know wliotlior it would or not \n^ vory ^liitilyiri^!; lo 
 liitn, at all ovtuitH I did not spoak to liini. I will Hwoar that on that hiiIi- 
 jcct. 
 
 QuoM, I awk yon ii you ilid not purpoHoly wilhold it? 
 
 Alls. I did not. 
 
 Qu(!.s. Ili'.d yon anything to do with tln^ laisinj^- ol that money ? 
 
 Ann, Ndlhinj^ whatovor. 
 
 (^iicM. Do you not know it is in i:vid(Mir(! that that money was 
 roooupcsd out of Ihn (doe.tion land ? 
 
 An,4. I know it in in evidence that K(dly was leeonpi^d liy suh.serip- 
 tions whieh he eolleeted. 
 
 (jhM'H. Did he not ww(su' it eani.-Mint ol'a f^eneial linid. 
 
 Alls. He said he was riM-onpiiil liy sidisi^'iptions Im llic ejeelion 
 Innd. 
 
 Qnes. II out ol' suliseriplioMs lor tln^ (dection hind, and then was it 
 not out (d'tho geiK.'tal eh'ction Innd. lloW(!V(;r, we will not discMiss that 
 now. That heing so I ask you if you do not know that notes w(!nt to 
 dJHhonor Honietimo in iMarch and that Kolly eame a|) li(>re to l''red(U'ielon 
 and dinoUHHod the inaltc^r with some ol the ineniherH ol the (lovernment ? 
 
 Alls. As (!ouns(d lor Mr. illair it seems to me this is irrehivant and 
 I ol)j(!(;t to answ(!riii}^ it. II there are any notiis lln^y should ho pro- 
 duced lioro. Do I und(UHland your ipiostiou Iiiih rcd^^remie to tlio $ir»00 
 soiit lusro ? 
 
 (,^,U()t.. I have releronoo to the* gcMioial (dection Innd ? 
 
 AiiH. I know of no notos in (iounection with tlu' $ir)00 whatever. 
 
 Qn(!S. Do you know of any (doetion notcis that wor(^ iiej;!;otiat()d or 
 upon which ftioiiey lor the. (de(^tion Innd was raised and whicdi notoH 
 wont li! protest, and in ind'ercuieo to whi(di Mr. Kolly (ianui up lier(! to 
 spoak to inomhorH of the (iovernment about? 
 
 Ans. I do not know ol Kolly coming up here at all. 
 
 QucH. Do you know o( oloction notes that went to protoHt in Miircii? 
 (Ohjtuitod to. Ituled out hy majority ol (yommittoo). 
 
 QuoH. Do you not know tiiat Mr. Ficary'H IricndH luivo boon rccpiostod 
 to [tay th(>Ho very notes ? 
 
 AuH. I do nut. I Imvo no kiiowlodgo wimlovor of anything of tlio 
 kind, 
 
 (.^uoH. Arc you the ligcut for Fjoiiry V Ann. No. 
 
 i^uoa. Novel- liavo boon ? Ans. Novor havo boon. 
 
270 
 
 Ques, Your brother was ill during the election ? Ans. Yes. 
 The Leary telegram was here read as follows : 
 
 " New York, January 17tii. 
 
 " Hon. David McLellan, Provincial Secretary, 
 
 " St. John : 
 
 '' I am pleased to learn from my agent that the Government have 
 signed contract with me for subsidy to dry dock. The other iraprovu' 
 ments, whicli I am prepared to make, will depend upon the people of St. 
 Jolni supporting the Government candidates, so as to aid me in securing 
 further subsidy. I have already expended ^20,000 in acquiring land in 
 your City for the proposed works, and have all arrangements completed 
 to go ahead immediately on the additional subsidy being granted. I 
 wisli you and your ticket success. 
 
 "J. 1). Leary." 
 
 Ques. JMd you have anything to do with getting that telegram or 
 asking lor or procuring that telegram V Ans. I did. 
 
 Ques. Yes ? 
 
 Ans. My impression is that I did. I am quite sure that I did have 
 something to dc ith it, but I do not know h was exactly that telegram. 
 
 Ques. But a telegram of that import V 
 
 Ans. I could not quite say that. 
 
 Ques. Did you profess to act or try to get a telegram like that on 
 the strength of his having heard about the contract being signed ? 
 
 Ans. I could not tell you that. There was a telegram sent to Mr. 
 Leary in connection with the contract. 
 
 Ques. On the day it was signed ? 
 
 Ans. I think on the day it was signed. •' 
 
 Ques. Who was it sent by ? Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Had you anything to do with the sending of it ? 
 
 Ans. My impression is that I had. 
 
 Ques. Did you suggest it should be sent ? 
 
 Ans. 1 hardly think I did. 
 
 Ques. In whose name was it sent ? 
 
 Ans. The telegram would speak for itself. 
 
 ■Ques. Was it in the name of your brother V 
 
 Ques. In whose name was it? 
 
 Ans. I could not say ; I know it was sent. 
 
 Ques. Was it signed in your name ? 
 
 Ans. I am sure not. 
 
271 
 
 Ans. I have no knowledge it was. 
 
 Ques. Was it sent professing to come from Leary's agent ? 
 Ans. I do not know ; wliatevor telegram was sent would speak for 
 itself. It was suggested that if Leary would wire to St. John asking 
 his friends to support the Government, it might have a good effect on 
 the election, and that telegram was sent hy some one — I do not know 
 hy whotn. 
 
 Ques. That was on the strengtii of the contract heing signed ? 
 Ans. It was understood that Mr. Leary had the contract since the 
 third of January and it is important to rememher that he had had it 
 from the third of January and that the signing of the contract was a 
 matter of form. 
 
 Ques. Was that telegram, which it was iioped you would get iioui 
 Mr. Leary, based on the fact (hat the contract had been signed ? 
 Ans. That 1 cannot tell as 1 do not remember. 
 
 Will you say that you did not suggest sending for it yourselt ? 
 J do not think 1 did. 
 Who suggested it with you ? 
 i could not tell ; it was talked over by some of the friends of 
 
 C^ues, 
 
 Ans. 
 
 t^ues 
 
 An;- 
 the party. 
 
 Ques. Can you state where it was suggested? 
 
 Ans. In the Committee Room. 
 
 Ques. Tell me who was in there ? 
 
 Ans. The Executive Committee consisted of a good many ijeople, 
 and I could not say. 
 
 Ques. Was Mr. Kelly there ? 
 
 Ans. 1 do not know. I do not remember Kelly being there or 
 tiaving anything to do with this. It had been stated that he should be 
 requested to communicate with his friends in St. John as to his acquies- 
 cence in the arrangements that had been made, and that it was wanted 
 to convince the public mind that the Government were acting in har- 
 mony with the City Council in St. John, and the matter was talked over. 
 
 Ques. It was done for political effect ? 
 
 Ans. Certainly. 
 
 Ques. That could not have been done had the contract not been 
 signed? Ans. Yes, it could. 
 
 Ques. Why? 
 
 Ans. Because from the 3rd of Januaiy the coutract was awarded to 
 him. 
 
 Ques. In the Sun newspaper, of the 14tli January, there is a report 
 
272 
 
 of a speech made by Mr. Smith, which 1 may say, was only one of a 
 number of similar statements which were being made, both publicly and 
 privately, that the Government were simply humbugging I^eary — that 
 was the charge which our opponents somewhat unscrupulously, I think, 
 on the part of some of them, knowing as they must have known, that 
 the Government had decided to give the contract to Leary, and they 
 were seeking to create the impression that the Government did not 
 really intend to give it to Leary — that was the impression they were 
 seeking to create right along — and on the l-4th January, the Daily 
 Sun has this report of the speech of Mr. Smitli who belonged to Car- 
 leton, who lived in Carlcton and who was a supporter of what is 
 known as the Leary sclieme in the Council, on the occasion 1 refer to, 
 he i^ reported to have made these remarks : (Mr. Pugsley here read 
 extract of speech as already reported in the evidence of Mr. McLellan). 
 
 There is a statement made on the fourteenth, eleven days after the 
 letter from the Provincial Secretary to the flavor, stating that the con- 
 tract would be given to Leary. Unfortunately about that time there 
 appeared Letters Patent granting a charter to the Vanslooteti company 
 and that created the impression that the Government had given Letters 
 Patent to that company with a purpose. We tried to explain that it 
 was not a matter of discretion at all, that as the company had applied 
 for the charter the Government were bound to give the charter, and 
 then we were charged with insincerity. Uur friends thought it desirable 
 to have some telegram sent down from Leary stating that ho was satis- 
 fied with the contract that had been given to him and it was done for 
 political effect ; it was supposed it would quiet the public mind and 
 break the force of the statements which had been going around. That 
 was the sole object of it, so far as I know. 
 
 Ques. Pid you not advise it to be done ? 
 
 Ans. I thought it would be advisable. 
 
 Ques. Did you not write the telegram to New York? 
 
 Ans. My idea is that the telegram was written by some one else. 
 
 Ques, Was it not written by yourself? 
 
 Ans. I do not know I drafted it ; I certainly did not draft it. 
 
 Ques. Then it was for the political effect it would have, so as to 
 satisfy the f;iends of the Leary dock, and those interested in having the 
 dock, that Mr. Leary had tlie dock contract ? 
 
 Ans. No, it was to satisfy the whole public that the Government 
 were sincere and that Leary was satisfied himself. 
 
 Ques. Included in the public would be those who wanted the dock? 
 
it. 
 
 273 
 
 Vues. It was no eJemenf ,•„ ;t 
 
 Viue-s. J he time in tliP ,U.r -4. 
 ^-^- York,,oudonl k Cl;^;i-^g-^ed to «end tb i,s telegra. 
 
 Tfie Comnntteo adjourned till 8 p II, 
 
 COMAin'TEE ROOAI. 
 
 Resumed at 8 o'clock. April 15th, 1890 
 
 Ummittee all present. 
 
 Q eV W :r "' *'""<' '»">• ' '' '"'"'<"''''"'. it was 
 
274 
 
 Ques. By that despatch to New York they would know you wanted 
 an answer immediately ? Ans. I do not know. 
 
 Ques. Whatever despatch was sent, for this despatch will shew on 
 its face, it was urgent ? Ans, I do not remember that. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Atkinson). I widh to ask you if you know whose name 
 was signed to this despatch ? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember, my own name probably may have been 
 signed to it, that is to the telegram requesting Mr. Leary to wire to St. 
 John a telegram saying he was satisfied that he had the contract, so 
 that it might satisty the people that we were not giving it to the Van 
 Slooten people. 
 
 Ques. It was one thing that struck me, if Mr. Murray's name, the 
 agent, was forged to this despatch, as it commences by a statement in 
 reference to his agent ? 
 
 Ans. There were others acting beside Mr. Murray. There was 
 Mr. Hurd Peters, and it may have been thought to have come from hiui, 
 he had been doing some business for him during my brother's absence 
 (some real estate business) and 1 do not know. My brother was in 
 Boston at the time, and he may have had some communication from 
 him. 
 
 Dr. Atkinson — The answering despatch says : " My agent," Etc. ? 
 
 Ans. He may have heard from Mr. Peters or Mr. Trueman or my 
 brother, but I never was Mr. Leary's agent in any view of the case. 
 I never acted for him in any manner, shape or form. 
 
 Ques. And if sent by you, it was for election purpose to elect the 
 ticket ? 
 
 Ans. It was to have an effect upon the public mind to do away with 
 the false impression that was created. I stated before tea that owing 
 to the unscrupulousness of our opponents, now I wish to explain what 
 I meant. I then referred particularly to the speech of Aldei'man Smith, 
 and I felt it was quite unjustifiable for him to make the statement he 
 did, because he was an Alderman and the letter written by the Provin- 
 cial Secretary to Mr. Lockhart on the third of January, stating the 
 Provincial Secretary was ready to enter into the contract, was satis- 
 factory, and it was so felt in the City Council, and therefore I felt it 
 unjustifiable on the part of Mr. Smith to state what he had there stated. 
 
 Ques. He had not much faith in your Government? 
 
 Ans. Of course we expected them to use all the arguments they 
 could against it. When I used the word unscrupulousness, I had 
 reference to that speech particularly, and I regret very much what 
 
275 
 
 anted 
 
 3W on 
 
 name 
 
 beeii 
 I to St. 
 act, 80 
 lie Vail 
 
 rae, the 
 ment in 
 
 ere was 
 cm luiii, 
 absence 
 r was ill 
 on from 
 
 ; Etc. ? 
 or my 
 
 Itbe case. 
 
 [elect tlie 
 
 Lay witli 
 lat owing 
 lain what 
 In Smith, 
 ^ment he 
 I'roviii- 
 ating the 
 |vas satis- 
 11 felt it 
 Ire stated. 
 
 jnts they 
 18, I had 
 Ich what 
 
 occurred atterwards in coDDection with that telegram as there was uo 
 doubt misapprebeDsion respecting it, and it was charged and intimated 
 that no telegram had ever come from New York, at all. 
 
 Ques. Then if I understand you correctly the object ot this telegram 
 was sent in the interests of the Government ticket in St. John, so as to 
 set the question of tho Leary contract at rest in the public mind ? 
 
 Ans, Wo felt it of great importance that as to the question whether 
 Leary should have the contract or n®t should be set at rest ; and it was 
 sent more to effect tiie general masses of the people. 
 
 Ques. Do you not effect the masses through their leaders? 
 Ans. None of the leaders that I know of, with the exception of one 
 whose name I do not care to mention, had ever expressed tha slightest 
 iloubt ot the sincerity of the Government. 
 Ques. Who was that one ? 
 
 Ans, I do not care to mention his name, it is of no consequence in 
 the enquiry, and it is not worth while making his name public. 
 
 Ques. Do you tell me that some of the City Councillors were not 
 doubting the sincerity of the Government ? 
 
 Ans. 1 never heard anyone doubting it ; 1 do not know personally ; I 
 have no knowledge of that myself 
 
 Ques. This gentleman was a considerably influential man, was 
 he not ? 
 
 Ans. He was a man of some influence. I do not think of much 
 influence but of some influence. 
 Ques. Then it was important to set his mind at rest? 
 Ans. No, I did not think of that man's doubt. 
 
 Ques. You thought that the effect of this would be to strengthen 
 your party ? Ans. That was the object. 
 
 Ques. And to strengthen your Government you had the contract 
 .signed? Ans. Nothing to do with it, 
 Ques. Was Leary anxious at all about it ? 
 
 Ans. From the third of January Mr. Murray stated he was desirous 
 of having it signed at once aud further than that it was represented by 
 persons to us, that Leary was anxious to proceed immediately to Ottawa 
 and shew Sir John Macdonald that lie had the contract with the City 
 and the Local Government,as you say he did not go, but 1 understand that 
 since then he has been unwell in his home in New York. True he was 
 in St. John once since then but he was then ill. 
 
 Ques. Do you tell me that the fact of his getting that contract 
 signed in a hurry the way it was, then Murray getting it up here and 
 
276 
 
 getting the seal of the Province on it and theu sending it right on to 
 New York, that that had nothing to do with the allaying of public feel- 
 ing in St. John ? 
 
 Ahs. Yes I say it had not and for that reason neither Mr. Murray or 
 Leary directly or indirectly ever expressed the slightest doubt, but 
 they folt that the Government had committed itself to give the subsidy 
 to Leary from the third day of January. 
 
 Ques. The Government committed itself and only committed itself 
 by that Order-iii-Couiicil, and you know tiiat ? 
 
 Ans. Anil by the letter of the Provincial Secretary and that abso- 
 lutely committed them to Leary. ■ 
 
 Ques. That is not the conditional contract in evidence now ? 
 
 Ans. The contract was a more matter of form. 
 
 Ques. Do you tell me that the contract was a mere matter of form? 
 
 Ans. Only a matter of detail. 
 
 Ques. Then tell me what amount was agreed upon when you say 
 "Extra Provincial aid should be given"? 
 
 Ans. When 1 say a matter of form 1 mean it was a mere matter of 
 detail in preparing it, because the subsidy had beea awarded on the 
 third of Jiiuuary b^' the Order-in-Council. There was no agreemeut 
 whatever as to any additional amount and the contract lapsed after 
 sixty days if there was nothing done, but it is a matter of law if the 
 work is commenced whether it is off or not. 
 
 Ques. You heard that gentleman swear that the work had not been 
 commenced ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know about that, but if he had not commenced in sixty 
 days it would be ofT. 
 
 Ques. Y'^ou heard the Attorney General say it was off and gone ? 
 
 Ans. I heard him say that. 
 
 Ques. He is the leader of the Government, is he not? Ana. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you know yourself now whether it isoS or on ? 
 
 Ans. I really do not know whether oft" or on. I saw something in 
 the newspapers of something being done which might show commence- 
 ment of work, but I have no knowledge personally of that at all. 
 
 Ques. You heard that gentleman himself swear that there was not a 
 single thing done in connection with the work ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, I heard him say that, 
 
 Ques. And I think that would be a better authority than any news- 
 paper article which might have beeo paid for. Do you know whether 
 the contract is off or on ? Ana. I do not know.. 
 
277 
 
 Ques. 
 
 A.ns. 
 
 Ques. 
 
 Ans. 
 
 Ques. Tlien notwithstanding your groat interest in St. John, you 
 have not taken the trouble to ascertain whether the work under that 
 contract has gone on or not ? 
 
 Ans. I would rather come to the conclusion that it is not very satis- 
 factory to take a deep interest in public works anyway. 
 
 Que.^. You have come to that conclusion, have you ? 
 
 Ans. Well, you do not get much thanks for it. 
 
 Ques. And the result is that you have not taken any interest in 
 seeing whether this important contract has been carried on or not ? 
 
 Ans. None whatever. 
 
 You are disgusted with St. John? 
 1 love it just as well as ever. 
 You do, and since the last election ? 
 T think the people were mislead by a false cry which you your- 
 selt deprecated. 
 
 Ques. Thinking it over since tea have you been able to fix whether 
 or not the contract was signed in the election rooms or elsewhere ? 
 
 Ans. I have not been thinking it over since tea. Since I have been 
 on the stand before my recollection is no better. I cannot remember 
 where it was signed : it would either be in my office, according to my 
 judgment, or in the rooms of the Executive Committee. Wherever I 
 could see Mr. McLellan most conveniently. 
 
 Ques. Which you do not know ? 
 
 Ans. 1 do not remember. 
 
 Ques. Did you see Mr. Murphy belore he started for Fredericton 
 with that money ? Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Mr. Kelly was the gentleman who had all to do with it ? 
 
 Ans. So far as I was concerned and so far as 1 know, yes. 
 
 Ques. And if I understand you rightly, he was the one who on two 
 occasions had spoken of sending this money? 
 
 Ans. Well, the first occasion would be prior to my going to Harvey — 
 yes, there were two occasions. 
 
 Ques. Un both of those occasions did ho volunteer the information 
 that he would send it ? 
 
 Ans. No, the first time he did not speak of sending it himself, but 
 said ''Our friends are raising it " ; the second time he said that he 
 would send it 
 
 Ques. He readily volunteered that? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. He did not seem to hesitate about it ? 
 
 Ans. I do not remember that he did. 
 
278 
 
 Ques. You never heard any condition being ftttached to it until 
 you heurd it here, did you ? 
 
 Ans, I never heard any condition at all at any time. 
 
 Ques. Until you hoard it here. It rather astonished you when you 
 hoard it was subject to conditions, did it not ? 
 
 Ans. It was because I supposed that it would be delivered to Mr. 
 Barry that night and therefore I was surprised it had not been, I was^ 
 indeed. 
 
 Ques. What arrangements or understandings were there there be- 
 tween Kelly and Leary, if any, you do not know? 
 
 Ans, I know nothing about them. Never had any communication 
 or any knowledge whatever. 
 
 Ques. Kelly was the most active man in suggesting the sending of 
 the money? Ans. Yea. 
 
 Ques. And he was the only one there that you i^member when it 
 was done ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Atkiuson). This telegram read in the Mechanics in- 
 stitute makes the statement that Leary was informed by his agent that 
 the contract was signed ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Queg. You say this was done to counteract the canvass floated by 
 the Opposition? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Then you say the contract was not signed with a view of 
 satisfying any persons who were dissatisfied with the Government in 
 St. John ? Ans. I do not quite understand you. 
 
 Ques. In the first place you made a statement that none of those 
 prominent men were dissatisfied, with one exception, that the Govern- 
 ment would not give the contract to Leary? 
 
 Ans. I never heard but one. 
 
 Ques. Then this telegram coming from Leary or liia son states the 
 contract was signed ? 
 
 Ans. Yes, and it expressed the hope that they would vote for the 
 supporters of the Government. 
 
 Ques. And the purport of that telegram was to convince the people 
 that the Government was in earnest ? 
 
 Ans. That I think was the purport. That was the object that in- 
 fluenced our friends that we consulted about it. 
 
 Ques. Could you tell what day it was you had this conversation 
 with Kelly about sending the money ? 
 
 Ans. My recollection is that the first time was on the same day that 
 I went to Harvey, that would be on the fifteenth, and it was in con^ 
 
 It'^.- 
 
 "■-tr-WKlllii 
 
27J) 
 
 nection witli tho statement that I had made as to obtaining the Attor- 
 torney Gononil to address the public meeting, and that he knew that it 
 lie could bo induced to como down our friends would bo able to assist 
 him towards the election expenses in York. I had the second conver- 
 sation with him on Thursday, tho day I returned t'roiu Ilarvey. 1 may 
 say hero that I had nothing whatever to do with money matters. I 
 did not handlo the money or anything like that, except that 1 made a little 
 contribution niysoll' towards tho election expenses. I know in one of 
 the conversations just about that time, there was talk of sending some 
 money to Westmorland to help Mr. Hanington, but I cannot speak as to 
 money matters, not having any connection with them. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Phinnoy). Was it understood that this money 
 \vii3 to bo paid in by any particular section of the party in St. 
 Jdhn? 
 
 Ans. There was no understanding with me of anything of tlio kind 
 at all. 
 
 Ques. So far as your conversation with Kelly went about it, was 
 there? Do you not know it was contributed by the wing of the party 
 more directly interested in the Ritchie appointment? 
 
 An«. r have no knowledge or idea of where it came from, or what 
 ioa.sons operated upon their minds. 1 heard our friends speaking of 
 Mr. Ilanington's attitude, and he was looked upon as being favorable tu 
 us. 
 
 Ques. Was that the reason for the money being talked of for West- 
 iiiorhuul ? 
 
 Ans. I have a very indistinct recollection ot the matter in reference 
 to Westmorland. 
 
 Ques. You do not know wiiether it was that wing of the party that 
 w;is contributing the money to York ? 
 
 Ans. All I know is that Kelly would send it up on Wednesday. On 
 tlie first occasion lie said that our friends would do something. 
 
 Ques. Did you understand from Kelly it was a contribution out of 
 liis own pocket ? 
 
 Ans. When Kelly told me he would send the money up. I did not 
 understand where it would come from or anything about it. It was 
 after I came from Harvey that he told me the money would be sent up 
 by him. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Atkinson). Was there any other County mentioned ex- 
 cept Westmorland and Y'ork ? 
 
 Ans. I heard of none. Of my own knowledge I might say I do not 
 
IMAGE EVALUATION 
 TEST TARGET (MT-3) 
 
 A 
 
 /. 
 
 o 
 
 {./ 
 
 \ 
 
 
 
 t'n 
 
 y. 
 
 (/. 
 
 1.0 
 
 I.I 
 
 1.25 
 
 :" '- IIIIM 
 
 It s:^ III 2.0 
 U i 1.6 
 
 Photographic 
 
 Sciences 
 Corporation 
 
 23 WEST MAIN STREET 
 
 WEBSTER, NY. 14580 
 
 (716) 872-4503 
 
 fv 
 
 "^ 
 
 ■^ 
 
 <> 
 
 
 % 
 
 -yrS 
 
 "i'^ .^ ^^^ 
 
 % 
 
.'* 
 
 I 
 
 i 
 
 &$> 
 
 w- 
 
280 
 
 > 
 
 know that the fifteeu hundred dollars sent to York would go far towards 
 the legitimate expenses incurred in St. John. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Mitchell). Was not Mr. Kelly, up to a recent date, a 
 strong oppont..jt of the Government ? 
 
 Ans. It seems to me that Kelly had run on the ticket formed against 
 the Government. He was spoken of as a candidate. I think it was at 
 a previous election that Mr. Kelly opposed the Local Government, but 
 1 understand that after the appointment of Mr. Ritchie, Mr. Kelly 
 announced himself publicly as approving of the conduct of the Gov- 
 ernment in making that appointment, and said he was going to support 
 it. I know that he and some of his associates felt warmly towards the 
 Government in consequence of the stand taken by it in the matter of 
 that appointment, and so expressed themselves. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Wilson). Did you ever offer four thousand dollars or six 
 thousand dollars to any person to get this contract for Leary ? 
 
 Ans. 1 never did. 
 
 Ques. Did you ever authorize any person to make such a statement 
 on your behalf to anybody, to the Dominion Government, the City 
 Council or anybody ? 
 
 Ans. Never to any person whatever, directly or indirectly, and 1 
 never heard of such a thing being done. 
 
 Ques. What time was it you say your brother was sick in Boston? 
 
 Ans. He was sick in Boston tor at least five weeks He went there 
 late in December, and my impression is that he did not get back till 
 some time in February. I[e was in Boston all the time, 1 wish to 
 make this statement : 1 never knew of there being any arrangement, 
 nor did I ever hear ot any arrangement being made or of any under- 
 standing being come to ot any description between Mr. Blair or any 
 member of the Government and Mr. Leary or anyone on his behalf, 
 under which Mr. Leary was to get the contract for the dock in condition 
 ot his contributing to assist in the election. I never heard anything ot 
 the kind, I never knew anything of the kind. I also wish to say that I 
 have stated that on the occasion I saw the Attorney General at Har- 
 vey, he told mo that he had not time to look over the contract. I have 
 been trying to think since of what I then told him as to it. 1 can only 
 now recall to memory that I mentioned to him that I had provided in 
 the agreement for the plans and specifications being subject to the ap- 
 proval of the Governor in Council. I do not recollect mentioning any- 
 thing else to him. He was very busy at the time, and he told me he 
 had confidence in my attending to it properly. That is all that took 
 
 
 
281 
 
 place in reference to it. I was in error before tea when I stated as I 
 did. I understand that Mr. Blair said I did not make any explanation 
 in detail, and I wish to correct my statement in that particular. Mr. 
 Blair was very busy at the time, he had other things to think of, and 
 went right oflF to the meeting, and then was busy right along talking to 
 the people and I had very little opportunity indeed of speaking to him. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Hanington). The despatch that came back from Leary 
 jn New York was agreeably to the request for it, was it not ? 
 
 Ans. I think so. ' .. . \ 
 
 Ques. As it came back it was to meet the views of those who sent 
 it, that is in its terms, was it not? Ai-s. I never heard about it. 
 
 Ques. Was it not dictated as the telegram to be sent ? 
 
 Ans. I do not know. 1 could tell better if we had the despatch 
 that was sent to him. I have no objection to having it produced here 
 it it is important. 
 
 Ques. So far us you remembor did it meet the wishes of those who 
 sent for it in its term- ? 
 
 Ans. I heard no complaint about it at all. 
 
 Ques. Who else know about it ? , , 
 
 Ans. Some two or three of tbe Executive Committee. 1 do not care 
 about mentioning their names. I am sure Kelly was not one of them. I 
 have no recollection of Kelly in that connection at all. At that time I 
 think Mr Kelly stated he had sickness in his family. 
 
 Ques. So far as you know all the subscriptions to the election fund 
 were for the same fund ? 
 
 Ans. 1 know nothing whatever of that kind at all. 
 
 Ques. There was no discrimination made between funds ? 
 
 Ans. 1 have no knowledge abo.c money matters at iill. , ,. 
 
 Adjourned until 10 a. m., to-morrow. ^ 
 
 COMMITTEE ROOM, , , 
 
 Apiul 16th. 
 Committee met at 10.45. 
 
 Mr. Hanington wished to know the determination of tlic Committee 
 as to the sending for tbe witnesses whom he had asked for, Mr. Robert- 
 son and Dr. Barker. 
 
 Mr. Phinney stated that since last evening information had been 
 communicated to him that led him to tbe conclusion that it would be 
 advisable that they should be summoned. He was not going to press 
 it. however. 
 
 -'*- 
 
382 
 
 Mr. Wilson — Do you feel called upon to inform the Committee as to 
 the bearing the evidence of these witnesses will probably have upon 
 the investigation? 
 
 Mr. Phinney stated that he was prepared to do so, whereupon 
 the Committee deliberated for a short time with closed doors. 
 
 Mr. Wilson then stated, that the Committee, in view of the state- 
 ments Mr. Phinney had made, and in view of the evidence given yes- 
 terday by Mr. Pugsley and Mr. Murray, and further in view ot what the 
 Committee were informed these gentlemen could prove, had come to 
 the conclusion that the evidence of these gentlemen could not aO'ect the 
 investigation in any way. This was the decision of a majority of the 
 Committee, consisting of Mr. Hetherington, Mr. Mitchell and himself. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I have no further witness to call. I regret that these 
 men were not called, because I thought they were very important 
 witnesses. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley stated he had one witness to call. He would call 
 Dr. Atkinson. 
 
 Marcus C. Atkinson, Sioorn and Examined by Bon. Mr. Pugsley : 
 
 Ques. In the charge which you made in the House, you stated that 
 you were creditably informed that you could establish by satisfactory 
 evidence, that in anticipation of the general Provincial elections held in 
 January last, an agreement or arrangement was entered into by the 
 Hon. Andrew (t. Blair, Attorney General and leader of the Government, 
 and one James D. Leary and other persons interested in the making and 
 procuring from the Government to the said J. D. Leary of a contract 
 for the construction of docks and harbor improvements in the City of 
 St. John, whereby the said J. D. Leary by himself and his agents or 
 such other persons, agreed to furnish a large sum of money to assist 
 and aid the said Andrew G, Blair and his colleagues in securing their 
 election and the election of some of his supporters in consideration 
 that the Pro* incial Government would outer into and deliver to the 
 said J. D. Leary, or in his name, a contract for th^ construction ot 
 certain dock and harbor improvements in the City of St. John. Now, 
 I will ask you who gave you that information ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington objected — not relevant. That is not the inquiry 
 here. As a member of the House of Assembly ho is not 
 obliged to answer who spoke to Lim. It is a question of privilege. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I press the question. 
 
283 
 
 Mr. Pbinney — I am somewhat surprised at the Solicitor General 
 pressing a question of that kind. Dr. Atkinson being a member of the 
 Legislature and having made this charge. He may ha^'e obtained in* 
 formation which he would not care to divulge. The real question is as 
 to the truth of the charge afterwards, 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — I think if the witness is willing to answer, his 
 counsel has no right to interpose. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — He has a perfect right to interpose and inform him 
 what his rights and privileges are. 
 
 Mr. Hetherington — My views are that we should have anything 
 touching the matter in question. This seems to be the very essence of 
 the question at issue. 
 
 ,Hou. Mr. Mitchell — I think the Committee is entitled to know the 
 source of the information in order that we may judge as to its credi- 
 bility. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — The question is whether the charges are true or 
 not, not as to their source of information. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — My impression is against the question. (Ruled out) . 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). I will ask you whether it was not Mr- 
 George F. Gregory ? (Objected to. Must be ruled out being on same 
 principle as the last question). 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — Dr. Atkinson, a member of the House of Assembly, 
 has thought proper to prefer a charge of the very gravest character 
 against the leader of the Government. In support of that charge he 
 has not produced a tittle of evidence. The Committee have to report to 
 the House. I think it is material for the House and for this Committee 
 to know whether Dr. Atkinson has made this charge after taking 
 reasonable eflforts to ascertain the correctness of the information which 
 was imparted to him, or whether he has made this charge upon the 
 mere statement of a violent political partizan without making any 
 effort to satisfy himself of the truthfulness of the statements which 
 were made to him. I think that is a most material fact for this Com- 
 mittee to inquire into, and the House to be informed on. It seems to 
 me the accuser is placed in a very diflfevent position where he acts upon 
 the suggestions ol a disappointed and defeated candidate like Mr. 
 Gregory, than if he had got his information from a disinterested 
 source. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I say that Dr. Atkinson, as a member of the House, 
 having been informed of the facts that would make up the charge, 
 a perfect right, and it was his duty to bring it. This is not the pi 
 
 iiad 
 
 1 
 
 ^ 
 
284 
 
 to try whether Dr. Atkinson had the proper information or not. Dr. 
 Atkinson informed me of the information he had, and I say that as far 
 as I know he had good reason to believe that the witnesses would 
 prove the charge. The exclusion of evidence on this inquiry has pre- 
 vented proof of some material facts as 1 thought that would make up 
 the proof of the charge. Where Dr. Atkinson got his information he is 
 not bound to tell. It is no part of the inquiry, and this Committee 
 cannot enforce it. The last question was ruled out and properly so, 
 and this is in the same category. Furthermore he is cross-examining 
 his own witness. It would seem to me that these questions are more 
 given for " 'ical purposes than for the purposes of this inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Phii..,ey said the question was not in the line of the inquiry, but 
 the very reverse. Whether the informant of Dr. Atkinson was a 
 violent political partizan or not, if the latter believed that he could 
 place confidence in that information, he had a right to make the charge- 
 The question as to whether the evidence sustains the charge is another 
 matter altogether. But this seeking to place another and a third party 
 upon trial before this Committee seems to me an outrageous and dis- 
 creditable course to pursue. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington favoring the reception uf the 
 question, Mr. Wilson said, while in view ot the fact that this charge was 
 made, no doubt in the public interest, those who gave the information 
 ought to have no objection in view of the public interest that it should 
 be known they had given the information, yet as the question was in 
 the same category as the last, he would rule it out. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). Do you decline to state whether it was 
 Mr. George F. Gregory who gave you tl^e information? 
 
 (Objected. Allowed per Mitchell, Hetherington and Wilson). 
 
 Ques. Do you decline to tell me whether it was not Mr. George F. 
 Gregory who first gave you the information on which you made the 
 charge ? 
 
 Ans. 1 decline to state whether I decline or not. 
 
 Ques. Tell me whether or not it was Mr. George F. Gregory who 
 drafted the charge which you presented to the House ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington objected. We are not here to inquire who 
 drafted it. I know it was not drafted by Mr. Gregory, und if you can 
 ask this witness this question, you can ask him who did draft it. How- 
 ever, I will withdraw my objection to it if it goes no further. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — Then I will withdraw the question and put it in 
 this way — 
 
2S5 
 
 Ques. I want you to tell me who drew up tlie charge which yot% 
 presented to the House ? (Objected). 
 
 Ques. Now, Doctor Atkinson, you reraeniber when you presented 
 this resolution to the House ? Ans. Yes. 
 
 Ques. Do you remember when you first got up, stating in answer 
 to the Speake' , that by the term " colleagues " you meant Mr. Blair'* 
 colleagues in the County, and after recess getting up and addressing 
 the Speaker, and stating you did not know then just what it meant, but 
 now you were informed it meant " colleagues in the Government ?'" 
 Do you remember that? (Objected). 
 
 Ques. Did not that take place just as I have stated ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington objected. (Irrelevant). The statement is not true a& 
 the Solicitor General puts it, and this is not the place to inquire inta 
 that matter. 
 
 Mr. Phinney thought these questions were simply being asked to have 
 them ruled out for the purpose of effect. 
 
 Hon, Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherington thought the question should 
 be answered, and Mr. Wilson decided in favor of its admission. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). Do you decline to answer that ? 
 
 Ans. Well, I will make a statement. When I read the charge and 
 when the Speaker afterwards read the charge from the chair and put 
 the question to me as to what I meant by '* colleagues," of course I had 
 not the paper in my hand, aud I did not see the words that immediately 
 followed the statement of " colleagues."' After tea on looking the 
 matter over I saw that the words " and the election of some ot hi& 
 supporters '' followed the statement of "colleagues,' and of course the 
 first statement I made to the Speaker was an incorrect statement of the 
 contents of the resolution. 
 
 Ques. (Hon. Mr. Pugsley). Then, Doctor, you did not draft the 
 charge. (Objected to). 
 
 Hon. Mr. Pugsley — The Doctor has voluntarily made an explauation 
 and I think I have a right to follow it up. (Ruled out). 
 
 Ques. Was not your ignorance of what the term " colleagues '' was 
 intended to mean due to the fact that you had not drafted the resolution 
 but that it was drafted by somebody else ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington objected. The statement that Dr. Atkinson has made 
 as to what he said in the House was not a voluntary explanation, but 
 in answer to the Solicitor General's question whether he himself 
 drafted it or sombody else, is not relevant to the inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I think Dr. Atkinson- has already given an explanation 
 
286 
 
 of how he came to make the statement he did in the House. I want 
 again to expt^ss my opinion that the inquiry in the direction it is now 
 taking is entirely apart from the objects of this investigation. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell thinks the Solicitor General has the right to probe the 
 'witness'b statement. Mr. Hetherington concurs. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I will allow it. 
 
 Witness — Well, I don't think it was. 
 
 Ques. I ask you whether after this party gave you this information 
 you communicated with any of the Aldermen in 8t. John who were called 
 here as witnesses or with Mr. Murray in order to satisfy yourself of the 
 ■truthtulneps of the information you had received before preferring the 
 charge ? 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I object to this on the ground that what communi- 
 cations he may have had, or whether he communicated or not, has 
 nothing to do with this inquiry. I say further, that if Dr. Atkinson had 
 consulted mo, as a general rule, I would have advised him personally 
 not to have seen these people, whatever he may have done with other 
 people. It is not relevant to this inquiry. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I don't think it is relevant to the inquiry. It is an 
 attempt to obtain information for political purposes. 
 . Mr. Hetherington — I think a gentleman taking up a report like that 
 on the street ought to satisfy himself of the truthfulness of it before 
 making a charge of this kind against a member of the House. 
 
 Hon. Mr. Mitchell — I am of the opinion that a good many things 
 have been pursued in the course of this inquiry for political purposes, 
 and probably the Solicitor General is now following the example Mr. Han- 
 ington has set. At the same time I think the question should be answered. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — My opinion is that Dr. Atkinson can state whether he 
 did communicate with these parties. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I tell my client th je need not answer unless he 
 pleases. 
 
 Witness — I decline to answer. 
 
 Ques. (Mr. Pugsley). Now, Doctor, before you preferred this out. 
 rageous charge against Mr. Blair, that he had made a corrupt bargain 
 with Mr. Leary, as alleged in the charge, did you go to him and tell him 
 what you had heard, and ask him whether it was true or not ? 
 
 Ans. No, I did not. 
 
 Ques. Did you go to any member of the Government and ask him 
 whether the information you had received was true or not, or ask an 
 explanation with reference to it ? 
 
 ' 
 
 K<^ -J.. 
 
287 
 
 Mr. Haningtou objected. He would be a fool bad bo done so. 
 
 Mr. Phinney — I am of the opinion tbat tbis question is not in the 
 slightest or renaotest degree pertinent to the inquiry for which this 
 Committee is established. 
 
 * Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Hetherinj,ton think the witness should answer 
 the question. 
 
 Mr. Wilson — As no objection was raised to the question immediately 
 preceding it, I will allow it. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I advise Dr. Atkinson that he need not answer it. 
 
 Witness — I consulted with no member of the Government. 
 
 Ques. I ask whether you went to any member of the Government 
 stating what you had heard and asking an explanation ? 
 , Ans. I did not 
 
 Mr. Wilson — I understand the evidence is now all in. 
 
 Mr. Hanington — I ask the privilege of being heard before the Com- 
 mittee before it makes a report. 
 
 Committee adjourns till 7 30 o'clock this p. ra. 
 
 The Committee met at 7.30 o'clock, p. m., pursuant to adjournment, 
 when the Chairman stated to Mr. Hanington that it was not proposed 
 by the Committee to hear any address from Counsel upon either side, 
 and that he (Mr. Hanington) would have an opportunity of making 
 his argument before the House on the report. The majority of the 
 Committee then having agreed upon a report to be submitted to the 
 House, the Committee adjourned s/ne cZi'e. 
 
INDEX 
 
 TO EVIDENCE AND PROCEEDINGS. 
 
 PACK. 
 
 (iporgR I. Uuiitor T. 7 
 
 VViiliam H. Herry 27 
 
 M. George Murphy 34 
 
 Jcieininh II. Harry 58 
 
 I 
 
 John Kelly ,\ 79 
 
 Jae. G. Byrne 123 
 
 W. S. Hooper ." *. 127 
 
 John McGoldrick 130 
 
 Jas. O. Stackhouse 138 
 
 A. G. Blair 150 
 
 David McLellau ... 174 
 
 James Murray. 211 
 
 William Pugsley 248 
 
 Marcus C. Atkinson ..^. ,^ 282: 
 
 m-m>^-^^