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 FIRST SESSION-ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT 
 
 HJr»EIt:CEL 
 
 OK 
 
 MR GEO. H. BRADBURY 
 
 0!f 
 
 MANITOBA FISHEEIES 
 
 K 
 
 OTTAWA. THURSDAY, MAY W, 1069. 
 
 Mr. G. H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). I wish 1 
 to draw the attention of the Hou.se to a 
 statement rocarjinc the fisheries of Mani- 
 toba and Saskatchewan. This is a very 
 important question to a hirire numlier of 
 mv constituents, who are interested in tiie 
 fishing industry, as well as to the other 
 residents of these two provinces. It is im- 
 portant to my own constituency from the 
 fact that a lariie number of my constituents 
 depend for a livlihood upon the fisheries 
 and important to the other residents of tlie 
 two provinces from tlie fact that the man- 
 ipulations of the .\nierican combine have 
 increased the cost of fish to nearly double 
 what it ousht to be. Some fift-een or ei'.-li- 
 teen years aero tho.se who knew lake Win- 
 nipeg ami its wonilerfu! resources were 
 wont to boast that we liad in that province 
 the irreatcst whitefish fishery in the worl.l. 
 which promised an abundant, supply of 
 fish for all time to come for Manitoba and 
 the other provinces of the west. Early 
 in the seventies, a larcre number of Ice- 
 landic settlers were attracted to that 
 lake lareely on account of this crreat fish- 
 ery. These people settled along the south- 
 west shore of Lake Winnipeg, and, at that 
 time, found no difficulty in obtaining white- 
 3046—1 
 
 ! 1 
 
 fish in larze quantities in the southern 
 part of the lake. They secured all the fish 
 they reqiiirel for domestic use and to sup- 
 ply at that time the market of Manitoba. 
 Tliis afforded triese people i nty of food 
 ready at their doors and promised a great 
 future industry to the settlers, an industry 
 fiom which these people, no doubt, expec- 
 ted to reap great benefit. But unfortunate- 
 y for their hopes and for our great fisher- 
 ies, the lar:.'e c.immercial interests that had 
 already depleted the fisheries in the lakes 
 of Ontario were not Ion? in scenting out l^ia 
 i;reat flsherv on Lake Wlnnipei; and, as 
 earlv as 1881, just as soon as railroad com- 
 nnmication made it possible, we find these 
 interests uetting ready for the work of de- 
 struction which thev have just about com- 
 pleted in that creat lake at the present 
 time. Mr. D. F. Reid and Mr. Clark, of 
 roUinirwood, were the pioneer fishermen of 
 that day. Mr. Reid is one of the commis- 
 sioners "appointed to investigate the fisher- 
 ies at this time. In 1881. he and Mr. Clark 
 established operations on the south end of 
 the lake and had no difficulty in securing 
 an abundant supply of whitefish lor the 
 market at that time. In 1885 they 
 put on a steam tug, and in one seasoa put 
 
 m^n » 
 
 \ V 
 
 i>\*iA**« 
 
up l&O tons of flfh with a very small plant. 
 Thi« was the conimencenieiit of the export 
 of whitetish from Manitoba. As soon as our 
 fish reached the Chicago market, the great 
 American interests were not long in realiz- 
 ing that there was magnificent whiteflsh 
 in the western provinces. In IH86 we find 
 established in that lake what was called 
 the Manitoba Fish Com|<any. But in real- 
 ity it was an American concern, flC per cent 
 of the stock being owned or controlled by 
 gentlemen living in De^rnit. This company 
 started operations in a big way. They had 
 one or two steamers and a couple of tugs. 
 They had their large freezers, one at Swamp 
 island, one at Little Saskatchewan, and an- 
 other at Selkirk. For two years this com- 
 pativ. with the pioneer fish company, Reid 
 and Clark, took from 1,200 to LSOO tons of 
 fish in that lake, nearly all of which wore 
 exported to Chicago and other American 
 cities. These tlsh were cleaned and frozen 
 us soon n.-* taken out of the water and tielil 
 in freezers until the winter and shij)- 
 ped out of the provime during the winter 
 season. The fish at that time ovcr- 
 at'ed from 4J to 6 pcpunds each. The 
 men who eauirlit the fish, nur set- 
 tlers, Icelanders principally, received from 
 the American interests M cents a fish. 
 When I tell yc j tliat those same fish retail- 
 ed on the markets of Chicago and other 
 American cities for ten cents and twelve 
 cents per pound, you will realize the im- 
 mense profit that accrued to this American 
 interest. As early as 1890, the possibility 
 of the depletion of this great lake became 
 apparent. Repres<'ntatinns were made 
 to the Department oi Fisheries here by 
 prominent men in Manitoba and by the 
 settlers engaged in the business on Lake 
 Winniiieg. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper, 
 then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, was 
 induced to send a commissioner to that 
 province to make investigation. He in- 
 structed Mr. Wilniot, who was then com- 
 missioner, to proceed to Manitoba and 
 make a thorough investigation of this ques- 
 tion. I have in my hand the report made 
 by Mr. Wilmot. and, for the information 
 of the House and for the information of the 
 minister, who, 1 know, is a very busy man, 
 and not likely to have time to read these 
 treat reports, I intend to read a few pass- 
 ages; 
 
 Ottawa, October, 1890. 
 The Hon. Charles H. Tupper, 
 
 Minister of Marine and Fisheries. 
 Sir,— Having received instructions from you 
 to go to Manitoba to examine into the condi- 
 tion of Lake Winnipeg fisheries, covering the 
 grounds mentioned in certain corresponaence 
 regarding the alleged depletion of whitefish, 
 and to investigate other matters connected 
 therewith; and having carefully read the num- 
 erous files of correspondence, relating to the 
 above subject, which have passed between the 
 Departments of the Interior and of the Fish- 
 
 ng Mnonally 
 nt fishing stal 
 
 TilitWl 
 
 stations on Lake 
 
 «riM ; and alio hAving 
 
 of the most important 
 
 Winnipeg, mentioned in the* aforesaid correi- 
 pondeuce, I beg to report, fur the information 
 of your department, the folln'ving views which 
 I entertain and the conclaiioni I have formed 
 an the subject matt -r under consideration. 
 
 Lnko Winnipeg lies partly in the two prov- 
 inces of Manitoba and Keewutin. It is the larg- 
 fit and mott important body of water in these 
 provinces, with an area of some 9,5S0 square 
 miles. Its extreme length takes in about 270 
 . les, and its greatest width is about 70 miles. 
 It runs in a line nearly north and south. The 
 southern half of the lake is very narrow, and 
 largely eat up with small bays and inlets, and 
 filled with numerous islands. The northern 
 nr upper half opens out to a width of some 60 
 miles, and covers nearly three-fourths of the 
 whole area <^ the lake. 
 
 The principal pro<luct from Lake Winnipeg 
 is the famous highly-priced whitefish, core- 
 genus albus which, lor domestic and coninier- 
 ciul purposes, no doubt stands foremost ou 
 the list of fresh water fishes in America. 
 These fish have been, and no doubt are yet, 
 quite numerous in L.tko Winnipeg, although 
 it is held by many persons, and truly so, that 
 in certain localities a depletion is already felt 
 from the wholesale methods of fishing practised 
 by certain fishing companies, who cnrrv ou 
 this industry quite e.\ten8ively almost wholly 
 for the United States markets. 
 
 Much controversy has arisen regarding this 
 alle)-fj excessive fishing in Lake Wiunipsg 
 lietweeii thest> fishing couipunies and leading 
 inhabitants of Manitoba, and also with the 
 setllers and Indian tribes around the lake, 
 which has culminated to such a degree at hist 
 as to call for the serious consideration of the 
 Dopartnioiits of the Fi>heries, and of the In- 
 terior to investigate this matter from a dis- 
 interested and lublic standpoint, not only 
 with regard to the above issues, but al<o in 
 the interests ef the general public. 
 
 It is therefore of vital importance to all 
 concerned that some practical solution should 
 be reached by which, if possible, the fishing 
 industries of Lake Winnipeg should not l)e 
 speedily impoverished, but shouH be main- 
 tained as a source of wealth, and luxury for 
 the inhabitants generally of Manitoba, both 
 for the present and future. 
 
 • ••••• 
 
 There are several separate interests con- 
 nected with the fisheries of Lake WinnipeK 
 which are dealt upon somewhat lengthily in 
 the departmentnl correspondence referred to- 
 each claiming that the views held by them are 
 the correct ones, in so far as the question of 
 depletion of the whitefish in the lake is con- 
 cerned. These diSerent interests may be 
 classed as follows: — 
 
 1. The Indian tribes under the control of 
 the Department of the Interior claim that, 
 many parts of the lake which formerly sup- 
 plied them with the requisite abundance of 
 lish-food are now showing depletion by reason 
 of the excessive and wholesale fishing carried 
 on by certain large fishing corporations. 
 
 2. Prominent officials and leading citizens of 
 Manitoba also represent that Lak.» Winnipeg 
 is undergoing a falling oS in many localities 
 of its former whitefish crop, and that, there- 
 fore, means should be instituted to stay this 
 
 i 91J2S8 
 
too rapid dMtraotion of fiih by jadicioai rit- 
 faUtioni, whioh, whilit protactiDs th* flih, 
 will not too Mriouly intorfero with th« fiih- 
 iag indaitriM of tbo ooantrT. 
 • ••••• 
 
 Fir«t.— " Th* Indiani, knd th* interoiti of 
 th» i>*p«rtm«nt of tbo Interior.' 
 VolnminoM OTidano* ii givtn in th* corrot- 
 
 Kndano* thowing quit* conclaiiToly that th* 
 diau on wmo of th* roaarr** aronnd Lak* 
 WinniiMg »r« pnilaring from th* want of 
 their formar rapplioa of whit*ttih, which in 
 pait TMira war* obtain*d readily and in great 
 abondancei and notabl* inttanc** ar* r*Iat*d 
 wher* watara which at on* tim* w*r* teaming 
 with th*s* liih hav* now iMcom* very scarce, 
 and faari are entertained that the usuul Kup- 
 pliea of tiih-food for th* Indiana will loon be 
 at an end, and that this has been brought 
 about by orer-eahing at the ri' iitha of rirera 
 by fish trader!, who are permi .ed to carry on 
 this exceaaive fishing regardieiis of consequeu- 
 ees. It is also represented that unless this 
 McklesB system of fishing be dibcontiuued 
 these Indians, who are the wards of the gov- 
 •rnment, will hare to be supported by other 
 means from the public funds of the country. 
 
 These are no doubt pressing facts, and must 
 b* ao considered from an uninterested and 
 practical comprehension of the state of affairs 
 aa ther now exist. It is therefore "Mpedient 
 that the gavernment should meet t' s subject 
 in the spirit of reciprocity; as b< ween the 
 requirements of the Indian, the settler and 
 th* fiah trader each hare their rights and are 
 entitled to full consideration as inhabitants 
 of the country. 
 
 Second.— The statements made by prominent 
 individuals and leading inhabitants of Mani- 
 toba are, that over-fishing of the whitefish in 
 Lalie Winnipeg is being experienced, and is 
 steadily increasing, and that it should be 
 atayad, in the interests both of the present 
 and lucoiuing inhabitants of Manitoba and the 
 Northwest, and that the whitefish industry 
 ahould be studiously husbanded. This advocacy 
 for the preservation of the fishing wealth in 
 Lake Winnipeg br th* leading inhabitants of 
 Manitoba ahould be sustained by the Depart- 
 ment of Fisheries, in order to prevent a repe- 
 tition of said experiences which are now felt in 
 many of the waters in the eastern provinces, 
 where over-fishing has brought depletion to 
 inch an ext*nt as tu be almost wholly beyond 
 Ncovery. 
 
 Formerly this industry was pursued in the 
 lower or southern parts of the lake; but the 
 catch becoming much lessened there the fish 
 traders have established themselves about 
 midway up the lake, and at Selkirk island, at 
 th* head of the lake. The principal points for 
 their operations at present are at Bercn's 
 island. Reindeer island, and the mouth of 
 the LitUe Saskatchewan river, about midway 
 of the lake, and at Selkirk island, near the 
 mouth of the Big Saskatchewan, at the north 
 end. Other places may be only temporarily 
 fished; but the above named localities form 
 th* present headquarters of the fishing cum- 
 panie*. 
 
 At Beren's island a good natural harbour 
 ii formed on the southern side. Here the two 
 principal firms have each extensive ice-honsea 
 and freeaing-honses, alao landing piers for 
 
 20M-H 
 
 their ateam-tnga and barfaa; similar werka, 
 bnt laaa aztenaiv* ar* at Raindaer ialnnd and 
 at Selkirk island. But the most •xtenaiT* 
 buildings and works are inat at th* mouth ol 
 th* Little 8askatcb*wao river, where two oom- 
 I penlaa eaoh bav* larg* ie*-houa*«, freeaer* 
 I and piers on either side of the mouth of thta 
 I river, which la only abont 100 yarda wide. 
 Th* praaant mod* of fiahing by th* compan- 
 i*a ia with gill-nats, whioh ar* fish*d at cer- 
 tain distances off the ahor** of th*a* ialanda, 
 I varying from on* to six and t*n mil«a. accord- 
 ing to th* ' running' of th* whitefiah, aa it 
 ia Mrmed. 
 
 If sovere stoim<t prevail, which is very otten 
 the ease in the open lakes, these nets cannot in 
 many cases be lifted until the winds subside, 
 whicn may not be for several days, in whioh 
 case the fish in the meantime die, partial de- 
 composition sets in, and they become unfit for 
 use, and the whole catch, sometimea amount- 
 ing to many thousands, are thrown away. 
 (Jreat destruction is caused in this way, and 
 a question has arisen whether it would not 
 be better to do away with the gill net and 
 substitute the pound or trap net under cer- 
 tain regulations, as the pound net would not 
 only save the fish whioh are lost by the gill 
 nets, but would also raise the standard of the 
 , whitefish generally in the markets of th* 
 I country; whereas it is now somewhat lowered 
 [ by the many fish which are offered for sale 
 that are unwholesome for food, by reason of 
 the blemished fish whose injuriea and defect* 
 , are hidden by the freexing prooeaa. The pound 
 ' net would no doubt be very acceptable to the 
 I fiahing companies generally, not only to ob- 
 viate the difficulties above mentioned, but on 
 l account of being less expensive in their gen- 
 eral working. 
 The quantity of gill nets set in Lake Winni- 
 
 ?eg in 1889 covered about 60 miles in length, 
 'hcse gill nets, though apparently small, and 
 averaging but 6 feet in depth, are nevertheleae 
 from their many miles in length where set, 
 very deadly engines, and capable of causing 
 great havoc in circumscribed limits, auch aa 
 ;.iiiiill Ui.v- .mil ri\.M-. As iiii .'viiliMni. of this 
 it may be stated here that in Lake Winnipeg, 
 where only three fishing companies are carry- 
 ing on the fishing trade, the quantity of whit^ 
 fish reported to oe shipped by one firm alone 
 in 1889 amounted to 9,000 boxes of 130 pounds 
 each, making 1,170,000 pounds, the other two 
 companies making up a similar amoiint, thua 
 showing that this small number of tradera 
 are capable, with the present improved 
 methoda of fiahing, of capturing upwards of 
 two and a quarter millions of pounds of white- 
 fish in Lake Winnipeg during one short season 
 alone, the greater portion of which passed 
 directly out of the province, causing the home 
 consumption of Manitoba and ether parts of 
 the country to be only sparsely supplied, and 
 at high prices. 
 
 This taking of upwards of two and a quarter 
 millions of pounds of whitefish by these fishing 
 companies in Lake Winnipeg, more particu- 
 larly that portion of the catch taken at the 
 mouth of the Little Saskatchewan river, 
 must, in the common sense reasoning or 
 things, go to show, that originally intended 
 balance of nature regarding these fish is being 
 largely interfered with, and to such an extent 
 
•r .caught by »ll oth.r flAormon. IndiMi »nd 
 iitUri in othof P»rU of th. lako during tho 
 wholo Bihing MMon^o'^tho yoar. 
 
 Tho following quoitionii rolnting to tho 
 
 whi?.«.ha.h.ri5. in L«;k«^'"'P!«V°«;]'Ji 
 
 ■ittod for n>T coniidor»tion oro horowJta 
 UMworod foriktim:— j.„u*i«» 
 
 1. Whothor th.ro rooUy oiiit. » ,*'«^'^'V \ 
 •f wbiUfith in th. w»t.r. »' L.k. Winn pogf 
 
 Th.r. ii k gradual but itwdr d.pUtjon of j 
 tho whit.aih product of Uko Winnipou going 
 on! from the .II*:tt of th. prw.nt .y.Um .1 . 
 Bshing in cortain parti of t" '»«•■ . 
 
 «. If io. in what water*, and what ar« th. j 
 oaoMs of it? .. „ ! 
 
 Tho depletion is experienced more particu- | 
 Urlr at the mouthi of the larger riveia. and , 
 ,^ tho lower parts of the lake. partKularly , 
 in the Little Saskatchewan rirer and ht. 
 Martin's lake, caused by ovor-Bshing at im- , 
 proper times, notably at the mouth and buy of : 
 IheXittle Saskatchewan river. Ihis cause, if 
 permitted ti. be continued here, and tu be al- 
 lowed in other places similarly situated in 
 other parts of the lake, must assuredly hapten 
 
 rapid depletion and eventually termination 
 of the whitefiih ir 'ustry of Lake Winnipeg. 
 3. What areth.- <mediM? . » .u 
 
 Th. remedies nre to reasonably restrict tne 
 
 wholiwil.. Ii-liiim ii"W .uMied 1)11 by tlie hsli- 
 
 11,1,' iiinipaiiii^. Iiv judicious reKulatiiuin, and to 
 
 wholly prevent these companies, and others, 
 
 from tishiug in certain well known localitieM, 
 -here the whiteKsii congregate m great uui:i- 
 
 ^.s prior to tho close season and preparatory 
 
 to their breeding time. 
 
 • .•■•• 
 
 Mr. Wiliiiot. wlio was tlioii the Com- 
 miiwioiior ul Ki»lario.<, nporteJ that if 
 these ooiiipiiuies were alluwod to continue 
 taking such t-'reat ([uautities of lisli out of 
 the lake each vrar the waters would surely 
 be depleted. After the evidence contained 
 in this report an J the finUinas of the com- 
 mission it would be only reasonable to as- 
 sume that the Fishery Uoparliiient would 
 have seen to it that lishin-j on the scale then 
 in vcgue would have been checked. In-'ead 
 of that we lind that these large coninitrcial 
 companies were allowed to increase their 
 operations and instead of two fishini; com- 
 panies there were four or five large com mer- 
 mcrcial companies operating in that lake. 
 Thi' result is, as Mr. Wilmot predicted, that 
 the lake is rai>i.ily becoming depleted of 
 lish. 
 
 Mr. BRODEUR. Is my hon. trien<I not 
 aware tliat the reeomniendations contained 
 in that report were adopted by the depart- 
 ment? 
 
 Mr. BRADBURY. No. the recommend*- 
 
 tion. in that report were not »<1°?!;«'J, .»'^! 
 
 of the recommendations were adopted, but 
 
 the chief recommendation. th»t eommercl.l 
 
 f^sliliiB ihould be checked, was not ftdopt«d. 
 
 The recommendation as to defining th. 
 
 boundaries where commercial fi»hing tjould 
 
 be allowed was adopted, but even that U 
 
 ,'b:en violated by the fishing comp.me. 
 
 within the la*t two y«»ri by fl«hing »n 
 
 i I'laygreon lake. 
 
 At tlx o'clock the House took recett. 
 
 After Beceu. 
 
 Hou-ii' resumed at eifjht o'clock. 
 
 Mr BR.\DBURY. Mr. Spriker, at six 
 o'clock I was drawing the alt<'ntion of tho 
 House to a statement of the luanti'V J' 
 "hiU-ti-h taken out of Lake Winnipeg 
 from 1890 to 1907 by the comerciol com- 
 panieji. 1 will not weary the House by 
 rea.iintt 'he full statement but will intent 
 mvseH with making one or two quotations 
 from this sUlenieiit and. with your permis- 
 sion. I will hand the Uatemeiit in to Han- 
 
 s'lrd' . „. 
 
 Whitefish Whitelish Sturg><"ia 
 
 Lake shipiwd from 
 Winnipeg. Manitoba. 
 
 Lbs. Lbs. Llh. 
 
 2.2M,000 
 
 ISflO.. 
 IhM. . 
 IsM.. 
 lH9t.. 
 1»9.'). . 
 iHiW.. 
 IK97.. 
 1S!W. . 
 IM!t.. 
 1900.. 
 
 3,068,790 
 
 3,873.000 
 , 2.370,000 
 , 2.659,000 
 . 3,470,NfiO 
 . 3,270,000 
 . 2.,i37.«00 
 
 1.966.000 
 , 3,895.000 
 
 5.0<M).000 
 
 3,499.520 
 5,M3.000 
 7,276,000 
 7,Wt,.T00 
 9.100.000 
 8.800,000 
 6.000.500 
 6.136.000 
 3.69.5.000 
 
 4.M.787 
 
 9ai.soo 
 
 600.000 
 600.000 
 600,000 
 600.000 
 600.000 
 325.000 
 177.000 
 
 PM)-.' ' " . ■ 6,000,000 
 
 190.")' 7.000.000 
 
 190l" 6.000.000 
 
 lin)-," 6,500.000 
 
 iljoii ' 5.000.000 
 
 {907:: :. i.ow-ww 
 
 In I8'.f.'. when Mr. Wilniot. the then com- 
 „..issioner. made his report, they were 
 tikinu' '2'25O(10() 11.^. of Nvhite fish out of 
 '.ake Winnipeu' Mr. Wilniot at that tune 
 pointed out clearly that if this continued, 
 vithin a very short time. Lake Winnipeg 
 would be depleted. We mi'-'ht naturally 
 h;ive ..xpectcd that the department at that 
 lime and since would have endeavoured 
 to curtail the quantity of v,hitetish that 
 was being killed in Lake Winnipeg, but. 
 in.-^tead of that, we find that year after 
 vear this amount increased until, in 1903. 
 "there were 7.000,000 lbs of whitefish taken 
 cut of Lake Winiiii>eg by the .\mericaii 
 fish combine. In all during these seven- 
 teen years this American combine took out 
 „f this lake about 68.000,000 11>8. of whitelish 
 and there was a total shipment from the 
 
#>* 
 
 province of Manitoba ol M.OOO.OOO Ibf., the 
 (iklance being taken out of Lake Manitoba 
 and Lake Wlnnlpegosla. In addition to that 
 there were 5,320.000 Iba. ol iturgeon. ThU 
 valuable flub. I may *ay, li ahnoit extinct 
 in Lake Winnipeg. The lake haa almoit 
 been depleted and the reason for that u 
 that it l«ke» a very long time for iturgeon 
 to mature. It taket about twelve or thirteen 
 yean for a iturgeon t'> reach the weight 
 at from 10 to 16 lb». We have had Blur- 
 geon taken out of Luke Wlnnlpeir that 
 weighed 125 lbs. 
 Mr. HENDERSON. How old are they? 
 
 Mr BRADBURY. Some of them are 
 ieventy years of age. 
 
 Mr. HENDERSON. That is a fishy 
 •tory. 
 
 Mr. B1.\DBURY. While the»e figures 
 iihow the amount of fish put up by the lurce 
 • American fl»h combines, they do nut l"- 
 gin to account for the amount of tigh kiUei! 
 by the methods <^niployed by the Ameri- 
 can fish Interests uiiJ by other commerciul 
 companies. It is well known that tlie 
 method of fishing In Lake Winnipeg is I 
 the uill net. We have had as much as sixty 
 milos uf gill net stretched in Lake Win- 
 nipeg at one time by these coininercial 
 companies. During the month of Septem- 
 ber «c have as a rule, very stormy wea- 
 ther. There are days and days when the 
 fishermen cannot visit the nets. The con- 
 sequence is that the nets are killing fi*!! 
 all the time. Some of these nets are swept 
 away from their moorings and lost, and, 
 goinir (loatinu through tlu' lake, the most 
 deadly engine one could imagine, killing 
 fish and polluting the water as tln-y pass 
 through the waters until they are thrown 
 up on some beach where hundreds of tons of 
 fish lie rottinL', and polluli" tin wat>r. This 
 Sir, is one of the greatest factors, and, 1 may 
 say. it is the greatest factor in the .lepletion 
 and destruction of our once great whitefish 
 industry in I/akc Winnipeg. Unfortunately 
 for our fisheries and for our settlers along 
 Lake Winnipeg, almost immediatily after 
 Mr. Wilniot hRti made his report and had 
 pointed out the danger to the Lake Win- 
 nipeg fishing industry from the methods 
 practised by tlu lartie combines, he retired 
 from office being Men an old man and a man 
 of very great experience. Mi. Wihnot had 
 been in the employ of the government for 
 m.any years and he had been under, 1 be- 
 lieve, the best deputy that the Department 
 of Marine and Fisheries ever had. 1 am 
 speaking of the late William Smith. He, 
 Wilmot. understood what tliese interests had 
 done alone the shores of the great lakes in 
 Ontario, he knew whit their methods had 
 resulted in and lie knew that they would 
 result in similar destruction in Lake Winni- 
 
 ptig. He pointed out in hit report, in a very 
 specific and clear manner, what Uioae 
 ciimpanlei were going to do in Lake Win- 
 nipeg if not restricted, and it is remark- 
 able that the department did not act mora 
 vigorously upon that report. He retired ■• 
 I have said just alter making thia report, 
 and the gentleman who was appointed to fill 
 hii position was the present comniiaeloner, 
 Prolesaor Prince, a man who came to this 
 country Irom the old land entirely ignorant 
 of tlie conditions that prevailed on Lake 
 Winnipeg, entirely ignorant of the meth- 
 ods practised by the American fish in- 
 terests and entirely ignorant of the reiulta 
 of those methods on the Ontario lake*. Con- 
 sequently, when he came to Manitoba he 
 was handira[>ped in such a way as to make 
 it almost impossible for him to realise 
 tliat there was any ureat danger of the de- 
 [ilition of Lake Winnipeu by the methoda 
 Practised by the coinnu'reiai inti rests. No 
 (.oubt th's "idea was created and supported 
 .strongly by the then resident inspector ol 
 lislicrie"?, " I speak of the late Latouche 
 Tupi)er. I know it is an old maxim, which 
 I intend lareely to follow to-niirht, to always 
 speak well of the dead, bJt to do justice 
 U.} this suiiject I must tell the Houae 
 the truth regarding what I believe to l>e 
 till- cause of the depletion of that great 
 lake. Mr. Tupper was inspector, and if 
 he had been a paid official of that great 
 American combine he could not have 
 <liini' more to assist in the deetruction 
 nf the lishery of Lake Winnipeg than he 
 did. Every move that was made to check 
 the killing" of fish by the American fish 
 interests was countered by this inspector. 
 He had the ear nf his minister at Ottawa 
 nri account of his oilicial position and he 
 apparently had the ear of the officers in 
 tliH def>artment and e\ery move that was 
 niu<ie to check this .\merican fish interest 
 was countered by this man and by the in- 
 llucnces that surrounded him. 
 
 I .egret, Mr. Speaker, to have to say that 
 representation after representation was 
 made to the De,.artment of Marine and 
 Fisheries pointing out the destruction that ( 
 was goiiiL' on. but it seemed impossible to 
 reacii the ear or obtain the sympathy of 
 the department. Settlers along thav lake 
 who had been induced to settle there large- 
 ly on account of the great fishing industry 
 that was promised had petitioned the gov- 
 ernment time after time praying for protec- 
 tion, but it seemed impossible to get the de- 
 partment to takp any action. That cannof be 
 verv much wondered Ft perhaps when we 
 realize that for year?, on both sides of the 
 .Speaker. .=at s/entlemen who were stockhold- 
 ers and sui'port<>r5 of the American fish in- 
 terests. We had up to a very few years ago 
 members on both sides of this House who 
 were stockholders or agent-s of the American 
 fish interests. Con.=equentIy. you can well 
 
undrmtsna how impo».ll.;.. it »m (or th« Uuortor milllont of pounds of flih •nnuijUir 
 provincl.l MitWrt to «w th« r.r ..( th» .le.|t)ie Uk« would ioon^Ki ^*P''"?f _„'j?.j?* 
 
 iuro w»« brouaht to bflar on th<> pre»<>nt 
 
 '^•""' ■ ^, •'.^ . . t »f„- sure waft nrouirni lo dphf uii nif wicwt-h* 
 
 ohf^.n iuMire '^■''' ' '' O^"''" j"''"' "' .^"j I "^^^^ th« thon Inspector 
 
 1,1,1.11.1 Ki*lit.ri.v« Uiiiix w.!l "''l"»">»';'l;utourhe Tupper In hU place the (fovem- 
 
 alonc tho ,hor... of th»t lake an.l b.'nff in ] \;^Xi»vpoM^\\ man (rSm whom every 
 
 iiHitiL' thr <l.»tructiv.' mo h.),l4 that were ^j^-p Vv. ColcleuRh. an old resident of the 
 priutit.'.l by til.' Aiiicriciin U\U-Te*U und the ^^^^^ ^j Belkirk. a man who had been ennag- 
 (frtnl ili'ttructi.in thiit had taken phuc in p,, j„ ,|,p jj^^ buiineni himself and who 
 our tiiheri.s, I cunic to Ottawa mid took the 1^,,^^^ ,,y,.,y |,„y „„j pyi-ry inlet, on the 
 inuttT iipwith the then minister, Sir Charle* ||,,j,, |„„i fiyory setiler on tt» shores. When 
 Hilibert Tapper. I became intere.ited In the ^j^. 'poip)puph gjiinnied nfflre we expected 
 mutter up with the tlun minitt-r. Sir jj,|,( (|,p .Vmcriciin Fish Company would re- 
 Chiirles Hiliert Tupper. I bernnie in- pp|yp » check, b- ' we failed to reallw the 
 teroHted in lln' iiiattir liirL'clv bi'enii<i' ni p„,^p, of this sreat combine. Within less 
 the fiiet that tlie Aiiiiruuii tisti in- t},„„ two years this mon who tried to do 
 terest*. not miti-ille 1 with I'.mtroUiiiii "or (,jg duty i,y the country and by the settlers 
 li^liirie« and t ikinu' lUli mit <A our was practicnlly forced ciut of office. Every 
 lake to the extent of millions of pounds recommenilation he made to the department 
 illiL-allv, w.n- eiiileavi.urin.' to erush at Ottawa in the way of restrictinB the 
 out of e\iatence the two ^tiiiiill Ciiineli;!!! Ariicricin ri-=liinL' int«r.*H from killini: the 
 eompanie* tliat wer.- tli.-n operatinii on ll*!!. wnn either ignored or side tracked so 
 the lake. This was their modus eperandi: that he fail.'d entirely to muke any im- 
 there was a .lutv u( a quarter cnl a pound provement in the conditions. Mr. Colcleugh 
 .in all lisli imports, I into tlie I'liitfJ State.H 
 
 fruiii Canada, but a olaii-^' in the V nited 
 Stat' s I'uitunis Aet provided tliat any tish 
 taken in Canada in mis owii,-.i Ijy Ameri- 
 can eiti/.c'iis would bi' admitt''! into the 
 Unit. (I States free. Tlie li.iuili Ki.-li I'ack- 
 iiiK Company of Chicago, that L'roat octopus 
 which lii.-itrnrd its te itacies un^every tish 
 produciin; sheet of water in Canada, re- 
 ceived tlie advaiita-.'e of tlii.s provision of 
 tlie Tniti'd Stall's enstonis law a-" i! owiii'd 
 the nets mid jilant uf th.' Kobinsm t'om- 
 pany of that time and when the iisli of 
 the two Canadian compiinies got to the 
 biirder line it was nut with the duty 
 and handicapptd to tliat e.xtent in the 
 CliicaL.'o mark. t. In this way til.' An li- 
 eans w.r.' ulile t.i .lictate price* ami 
 tiTiiis til the Canadians Tli.' r.'Siilt was 
 that ill If*'.' tley .succeeded, with their 
 control of tlii' Cliicau'o market in crusliini; 
 the two Canadian companies out of ex st- 
 ence. In that year the Selkirk Fish Co n- 
 panv and the Rei.l and Tait Company so d 
 their business to the Booth Fish Paekii e 
 Company, or as it was called in this coun- 
 try the Dominion Fish Company, but it 
 was Canadian in name only, the stock he- 
 inff almost exclusively owned by the Rooth 
 Fish I'acUiri',' Company of Chicauo. Since 
 that time tlie Booth Fish Packinc Com- 
 pany of Chicairo have practical v controlled 
 the fishini.' in Lake Winnipeu, Rieht under 
 the eves of the officers of the trovernment 
 they have taken from 1.2i1f> to 1.500 tons of 
 fish annually out of this lake, althousrh it 
 was pointed out in 1810 that if they were 
 allowed to cntinne tnkiticr out two an.l a 
 
 was not only a prominent citizen but he 
 was a prominent Liberal; he had repre- 
 
 . nteil a Manitoba constituency in the local 
 li'.'islature for many years and the settlers 
 .iloriL' the lake had creat hopes that he 
 woiiM see justice done to them. Now. In 
 nrdi-r to prove that Mr. Colcleush was true 
 t<i the pcMpIe and true to bis trust, and 
 that he saw eye to eye with Mr. Wilmot, 
 who realized that these erent American 
 tish interests were destrovins; Lake Winnt- 
 peu, I shall read some stronsr representa- 
 tions t.i this ffovernment contained In a re- 
 j.ort of Mr. Colcleush made on .January 15, 
 l!>o<» 
 
 ."Selkiik. .Innuary i:>. IMO. 
 fToii. Sir Louis Dnvles. K.CM.O.. 
 
 Minister of Marine mid Fisherii-s. 
 Sir,— I havo the honour to report as folloirs 
 on the fislierids iif Manitoba, for the year 1899, 
 and til enilose h'Tewith statistical retuM's for 
 the >aiiie [leriod. 
 [ This season iii the matter of catch anil all 
 [ other respects, may be said to have Ix'eii all 
 1 iweraue one, some lakes sUowiuK an iiu lease 
 ■ in oiitpat, and others a proportinnate de- 
 crease. 
 
 • • • • 
 
 The ti«h companies continue to ninvo their 
 plants northward, and this year their opera- 
 tions were carried on within a short distance 
 of the noitlurii shores of the lake, and I un- 
 ilirstand tliey (uiiteinplate another mnve to 
 Norway House ami I'layerwn I'oiiit on th« 
 northern coast. To my miud this is prima 
 facie evidence of the depletion of these waters, 
 I'ully 90 per cent of the catch of all our lake.i 
 Roes to the United States and tinds a market 
 there at Rooil prices. La-t spring I had a 
 wholesale price list from the Detroit Fish 
 
V 
 
 I 
 
 AiwcMtioa, vliicb I km told, ia on* of tb« 
 tonUelM of th« irrat Am«rlc>ii octopui, tho 
 Ath combino, and tbii Imt aaotod oar whit*- 
 Aih at S cmU par pound wnolaaala, and our 
 •turgaon at from ( to it cant*, wbila Una 
 droaaad treat takan from aaatarn watart waa 
 ualy qaotad at H cast*. 
 
 Now, I want to give you the r i>drt« of 
 two of hit officer* on Uiu lakvs: 
 
 I. Oflear Macnaaion of Arnaa, on tha wa«t- 
 am ahora of Lm» Winnipaf, raporta a aM:r»tii« 
 In thocalch <>f a«b in hia diHtrict, aa eouiparMl 
 with laat laaaon, and aajs that wintar Aabini 
 waa a failarr. He rvporta eloaa aaaaona and 
 otbar raaalatiooa wall obaarTad in bit dia- 
 triot and oloaaa bia raport a« followt;: In 
 mr opinion tba lalie will anraljr ba daplatad 
 of flab in a faw yaara if tba ■ompaniaa ara al- 
 lowad to Bib aa at preaant.' 
 
 Antjiw McKay, oii« of the oldest men 
 on Lak>! \Viniiii>t'L'. a niuri wlio wa* in the 
 I'mpluy uf th>! lilt' ir.jvrrniniMit (or niuny 
 yeara us Indian u-'iiit iit lloretra river, 
 niakfs tlii!« ri|>'irt: 
 
 a. Angua McKay, E»q., of Boran'a rirar, lata 
 Indian agant at tba point, baa reaidad tbara 
 tor liver twi'ntv yenr*. and hiii nlwiiyt t.ikiMi a 
 lively intaraat in all niattara pertaining to tba 
 welfare of tba oommunitv, and now writea 
 atating that the lalce in lioiiiK rapidly dppUt.d 
 of both whiteflab and sturgeon, and urges tha 
 goveruinent tn pay hrml to it before it ia too 
 lata. I niay add "that this opinion i» shared 
 by all diaintermted parties who have given 
 thia matter any cousidaration. 
 
 Mr Cololouyli al^'o makes the followitii,' 
 report to the deputy minister, which with 
 your permirtition 1 will not read, but hand 
 in, as I do not wi.<h to take up the time of 
 the House. After a lengthy report he says: 
 
 In conclusiou permit me to say that I have 
 given the matter of our fisheries ronMiderable 
 itudy, and consulted hundreds of settlers, and 
 
 Cple who have no interests, other than tba 
 t interests of the province to serve, and all 
 ara of opinion that lake Winnipeg is being 
 rapidly depleted of both whitefish and stur- 
 geon and tnat even one more season's fishing 
 fuch as last year, and a few preceding years, 
 will be disastrous. 
 
 In vprifiintion of thii let mo state 'hat tl,!- 
 enly wbitaflsh now left in the lake are within 
 from -•' til -'• miU'- of tin- most noitlipilv 
 parts. Last season over twelve hundred tons 
 were taken under commercial licenses by tho 
 Dominion Fidb Coinpony, most of which were 
 caught within 23 miles of the outlet of the 
 lake. Then it must be borne in mind that all 
 Bib which pass ever Sea Falls never return. 
 The first mentioned fishing was done in the 
 south portion of the lake near to the mouth 
 of Red river, where whitefi?h were very pier 'i- 
 ful, then tbay moved gradually northward to 
 Swampy island. When these grounds wer<> 
 Bshed out, ther then moved to Reindeer island 
 where tliey fisned so lonjj as it was profitable, 
 and then shifted to Qenrge's island, and later 
 to Horse island, the most northerly island in 
 tha lake and all commercial fishing was car- 
 ried on last season between this island and 
 the north shore of tba lake. 
 
 At tkls ■omant gaaga of man ara angagad 
 buildlBf ie« hoaaaa and making otbar aitaa- 
 aiva prvpn rations on the northern •bore* of the 
 take ia tba vicinity of Warren's landing, and 
 l'la.vi(ri»ii liik», ptriiHriitiiry '» o|M>ration* 
 tbara tbia wintar and next summar, and aa I 
 Mid bafora, if fishing is permitted for anotbar 
 year on laeb a seafa, it will prova a aarioaa 
 matter to tba paopU of tbii provtnea. 
 
 These reports prove conclusivi'ly that Mr. 
 ColeleuL'h saw eye to eye with Mr. Wllmot, 
 iitiij did all that any man could do to tftva 
 the tisheries u( Lake Winnipeg, but the u(- 
 lieials of the ilepartnielit and I fear the 
 minister himself l''nt a deaf ear to hit re* 
 porta and reciinimendations; and after 
 stru^i,''lin;< (or two year* with the depart- 
 rni'iit to si-cure justice (or the settli-rs of 
 Lake Winnipeg, he gave up the flght in 
 di.'ti.'ust. and resigned. The poslMon waa 
 then tiUi'd )>y a man taken out of a hard- 
 wan- store ill the town of Selkirk, a man 
 who knew no mure about fish than the aver- 
 aiii' nii'mlitT of this House know* about 
 watelimukin^' I have no hesitation in say- 
 ini; that it was iin the recommcndatinn o( 
 the head of the hsh combine in Selkirk, 
 the president of the Dominion Kiah (."om- 
 |iany. Captain William Kobertion, that 
 .Mr Youiii; wu.s appointed to that position. 
 While a very estimable man, Mr. Younir 
 i at tliat tinii- waa thoroughly ignorant of 
 till- tisheries. It is a very grave question 
 wln'tliiT 111- kni'w a whiti'llsh (rum a tiillibee, 
 or a tulliliiM' from a pieki rel ; but he was 
 just the kind o( a man who suited the 
 LTcat American tlsh interest. .\» he knew 
 nothing about the fisheries, he could not 
 .see where these great companies were des- 
 troying the fisheries of Lake Winnipeg. 
 Coming in right on the heel« o( Mr. Col- 
 eleiich, a man who had years o( experi- 
 ence in the fisherie.si, and who had resided 
 at the headcpiartiTs o( the fisheries at Sel- 
 kirk, ever sinoe they were started. Mr. 
 Young made a report, and I wish to nuote 
 ; passage of it to give you an idea of the 
 position he took in this matter. His re- 
 port to the nonunion Commission o( Fish- 
 eries, Ottawa, is dated Selkirk, March 18, 
 Ifl02, and in it he says: 
 
 Aa waa foreshadowed in tho preliminary 
 statement published in last year's report, tha 
 returns show an increase in the iiiinntity of 
 fish caught and exported over the year IWH). 
 
 Whitefish h?-. been very plentiful, so much 
 so that some of tt.e companies got all the fish 
 reqnirad in about six weeks or two months 
 fishing. 1 1 m pleased to report a yield of 
 1,364,000 pounds over the preceding year's, 
 which goes to show that wa have still an abun- 
 dance of whiteti'ili ill nur waters at any rat«; 
 1 rill sav -o with regard to the waters of Lake 
 Winnipeg. 
 
 1 just want to point out how easily a 
 man may be misled. I do not believe that 
 Mr. Young realized, when he made that re- 
 port, how misleading it would be to the de- 
 iiurtiiioMt, He states that there is abund- 
 
ance of iish in the lake in the very season 
 when tlie companies had nearly doubled 
 their plants, doubled the number of boats 
 in use, more than doubled the number of 
 men employed, and consequently more tJian 
 doubled the power to kill the fish and chase 
 them into the deep waters. These things 
 account for the apparent abundance of fish, 
 and Mr. Young does not take them into 
 account in making his report. It merely 
 shows how well this large trust had forti- 
 fied itself. Reading the report of Mr. Young, 
 the average man would suppoee that Lake 
 Winnipeg fishery was in a flourishing 
 condition, that there was really no danger 
 of its waters being depleted, while the facts 
 prove that the lake to-day is depleted from 
 the south end to the north end. One proof 
 of this is to be found in the fact that in 
 the early days the average whitefish t"ken 
 out of Lake Winnipeg was from four and a 
 half to five pounds weight, whereas the 
 average taken last year by the American 
 iish companies was less than two pounds 
 weight. According to the law and the repu- 
 la*i(ins of the department, no fish of less 
 than two pounds weight is to be taken out 
 of Lake Winnipeg; but I make the state- 
 ment here that the average fish taken by 
 the American fi.shing companies last year 
 was "ot over two pounds, so that there must 
 have bfon a lnr;:e nuniuer under two pounds 
 to make that average. In the season of 1907 
 the catch was verv loor, and the inspector, 
 reporting under <lii ,> ui Selkirk, June 1, 
 1908. speaks of it ir. the following .an- 
 guapp: 
 
 It will be noto<i fh.it there is a large falling 
 oB in the production of wUitcfisli, while the 
 apparatus used was practically the Baine as 
 that used the previous year. In the first place 
 the season was a month later than usual in 
 opening up, it being about the Ist of July lie- 
 fore any fish were taken. Throughout the 
 pummer season the weather conditions were 
 very unfavourable for successful operations 
 of the fisheries, which created a Bhortage in 
 the catch. My observations lead me to Ijolieve 
 that the shortage was entirely due to the 
 above cause, and not from depletion of the 
 fishery. I have no doubt but that when the 
 weather conditions are favourable for success- 
 ful operations the fishery will reileem itself. 
 
 That report coming from the Inspector of 
 Fisheries in the face of the fact that the 
 average size of the fish had fallen from 4J 
 and 5j to 2 pounds, is conclusive evidence 
 that the officials of the Fisheries Depart- 
 ment have not been as zealous as they 
 mi'.'ht have been in the protection of this 
 groat fishery, and not willing to admit that 
 the lake is depleted greatly. A few 
 years ago, when wo who took an interest 
 in this question and were trying to con- 
 vince the Department of Fisheries from 
 time to time that this lake was being de- 
 pleted, and made statements to that effect 
 to any of the officials in charge, we were met 
 almost invariably with the rei^ly that we 
 
 were endeavouring to kill a great industry. 
 The idea that this fishery belonged to Uie 
 people of Canada and ought to be protected 
 for our own settlers and our own people 
 never seemed to enter the minds of these 
 officials. Their whole aim seemed to be to 
 do everything possible to encourage these 
 great commercial companies to export our 
 fish to the American market. The idea 
 never seemed to suggest itself to them that 
 this fishery ought to be protected and kept 
 for the people of our western country. 
 
 I want to be as brief as possible, but I 
 desire tj put this matter on record in such 
 a manner that the minister and this House 
 will understand so; lething about the condi- 
 tions which have prevailed on Lake Winni- 
 pes during the last fifteen cr eighteen 
 years; and to do so, it will be necessary for 
 me to give a short resume of the operations 
 of these commercial interests since their es- 
 tablishment. As I have said this lake was 
 depicted right ur.dor liie eyes of the depart- 
 mental officer?, .^ny one. having as much 
 experience as I have had on this question, 
 would a' iiost think that these men had been 
 hypnotized by these crcat interests and 
 were consequently unable to realize what 
 was actually taking place. In 1881, Messrs. 
 Reid and Clark, two fishermen from Col- 
 liiigwood, started to fish in the extreme 
 southern part of the lake, right opposite 
 Big island. At that time that part of the 
 lake abounde<l in fish. Its waters were 
 teemiiiL' with magnificent specimens cf 
 whitelish, by long odds the best ever taken 
 irom any waters on tliis continent. Right 
 alongside where thev were fishing was a 
 settlement of some 3.000 Icelanders that 
 sealed there early in the seventites. These 
 Iclanders expected that they would be 
 allowed to carry on a great industry and 
 reap the reward which would have been 
 theirs had these commercial interests not 
 been allowed to come in and practically 
 steal what really belonged to our own 
 people. This great settlemeiit had no diflR- 
 eulty up to 18'H) in ohtaininL' all the iish 
 they required in the southtern part of the 
 lake, not only for their own use but for the 
 Manitoba market, which was not then very 
 laree. In 1882. Reid and Clark moved their 
 plant a little farther north to Bull Head, 
 still in the south end, and caught an abun- 
 dance of fish there. In 1885 they put on the 
 first steam tuc that was ever used in these 
 waters and put up 150 tons of fish. This 
 wat the commencement of the export trade 
 of whitefish from Manitoba to the United 
 States. Soon the wealth of this lake be- 
 came known and in 1886 the Manitoba Fish 
 Company— Canadian in name only — 96 per 
 cent of its stock beine held by Americans — 
 began ojierations on Lake Winnipeg and 
 built a large plant at Swampy island. Rein- 
 deer island, and the Little Saskatchewan. In 
 1887, the Booth Fishing Packing Company of 
 
Chicago, that (freat vampire which has 
 sucked the heart's blood out of our fishery, 
 came into oparation under the name of Wm. 
 Robinson. This gave thj lake over entirely 
 to these American interests, but in 1889 the 
 Selkirk Fish Company, a purely Canadian 
 company, started operations and estab- 
 lished their plant in the north end of the 
 lake at what is called Selkirk or Horse 
 island. In 1892 Reid & Clark started oper- 
 ations al«o on Horse island. In 1894 we 
 find that all these other companies which 
 had been fishing in the south end of the 
 lake, off Swampy island and Reindeer, 
 had depleted these waters and moved to 
 the north end and were fishing off Horse 
 island. In a few years they took from 
 that sheet of water surrounding Horse 
 island and Big Saskatchewan from 1,600 
 to 1,800 tons of whitefish annually, 90 
 per cent of whioJi were exported to Am- 
 erican markef«. In 1896 the Booth Packing 
 Company of Chicago secured absolute con- 
 trol of the lake and have controlled it ever 
 since. There is one point I want to bring 
 to the attention of the minister, and that is 
 that, under the laws of Canada, this great 
 ..merican combine had no status in our 
 waters. They had no right to fish in Cana- 
 dian waters, but they succeeded in evading 
 the laws by forming what thoy called the 
 Dominion Fi.sh Company. Everv official, 
 however, in the Marine Department, as well 
 - the inspector at Selkirk, knew that the 
 Uootli Fish Packing Company of Chicago 
 were the real owners of the plant at Lake 
 \yinnipeg. In face of the law which states 
 distinctly that every company or individual, 
 before it can sponre a commercial license to j 
 iish in Lake Winnipeg, must be composed ! 
 of British subjects and be the actual j 
 ownor* of tlie plant, these men were en- 
 aliled throuuh their acrents. to tnke the 
 oath and spcure a license which made it 
 possilile for them to destroy the t'reatest 
 inland fishery this country had. or ever 
 will have. Yoni would suppose. Mr. Speak- 
 er, that this fact would have caused an 
 inve.stisration by the Fishery Department 
 yi fir? nso. There i*" no nuestion but that 
 the Commissioner of Fi.sheries knew it 
 a? well as I did, because the attention of 
 the department was drawn to if from 
 time to time. But the department seems 
 to be powerless to interfere to y)ro- 
 tect our settlers against the encroachment 
 of American poachers. After depleting 1 
 Lake Winnipeg from the south end clean up j 
 to the north end, from Big island. Swampv 
 island. Reindeer iBland, and moving out to | 
 Horse island in the north, we find them | 
 at the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg | 
 six or seven years ago, and they have been i 
 fishing there oontinually ever since, so that 1 
 that part of Lake Winnipe? is very near de- | 
 pletion at the present time. When I made I 
 the statement a moment aco that the fish 1 
 
 taken out of that part of Lake Winnipeg last 
 year did not average more than two poundi 
 weight, it will be clear to every man of this 
 House what the condition of the fishery is 
 at the present time in that lake must be. 
 
 When Mr. Wilmot made his report in 
 1900 he pointed out that certain parts of the 
 lake should be protected, and he furnished 
 a map to the department, which is contain- 
 ed in his report which I hold under my 
 hand, setting aside certain waters in which 
 he thought no commercial fishing should be 
 allowed. This 1 believe was observed fair- 
 ly well up to within a year or two ago. 
 But a year or two ago we find that commer- 
 cial fish interests, after the season had 
 closed on Lake Winnipeg, operating in 
 waters known as the Playgreen lake, and 
 that part of Lake Winnipeg— because it is 
 really a part of the lake— was pruected ac- 
 cording to the map that Mr. Wilmot had 
 furnished to the department. Now this 
 was not done unknown to the department, 
 it was thoroughly aware that the com- 
 panies were fishing in Playgreen lake, 
 their attention was drawn to the fact 
 but no effort was made to stop them. I 
 want to point out that during the last 15 
 .years, under both political regimes, the 
 Fishery Department has not given to the 
 settlers on Lake Winnipeg the protection 
 they had a right to expect for that great 
 industry, or an industry which was former- 
 ly great. When I state that Lake Winnipeg 
 is depleted to-day, it is a statement I have 
 made from time to time during the last 
 three or four years, not from hearsay, not 
 from what I have read in the newspai)ers, 
 but from what I know. I have been ac- 
 quainte<l with Lake Winnipeg on and off for 
 26 and 27 years, and 1 want to ?av that dur- 
 ing that time I have never' had the 
 value of a five cent piece invested in the 
 fisheries on that lake So my action here 
 to-night does not arise from any pecuniary 
 interest, but altoeethcr on account of the 
 public interest. Tlie fact remains that our 
 fisheries have been depleted by the com- 
 mercial companies. 
 
 But, Sir, it will he hard to get one of the 
 officials, either at Selkirk, where vou have 
 an inspector, or in the department here, to 
 admit that Lake Winnipeg is depleted. 
 They will toll you that Lake Winnipeg is 
 not depleted. We have the inspector stat- 
 ins in miT that he did not believe Lake 
 \Vinnipeg was depleted, and that in the face 
 of the fact that tliesi' commercial interests 
 have moved from station to station, year af- 
 ter year. diiritiL' the last 18 years, until 
 now they have established themselves on 
 the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg. If 
 their former haunts have not been deplet- 
 ed, why have thev travelled 270 miles to get 
 fish elsewhere. They have gone this great 
 distance simply because they have taken 
 out all the fish in the lower part of the lake. 
 
10 
 
 Surely it ia time now that something should 
 ho done, that some drastic measure should 
 bo taken to protect this fishery. It is high 
 time that this farce which has been going 
 on should end and that we know the truth 
 rpRardinc the lake. We have men at the 
 present time investigating that matter. 
 They compose the second commission that 
 lias been appointed ti> invpstgate the flsh- 
 irirM in Lake Winnipeg. 
 
 Just here let mo give the minister a 
 little history of the first commission, which 
 may save him perhaps from some little 
 decc- tion that may be practised through 
 the I. resent commission. In 1894 I made 
 a report to Sir Charles Hibbert Tapper that 
 American companies fishing in tho.so wat- 
 ers which were allowed to use 20,000 
 .var.ls of nets, that they were fishing 
 double that amount and were destroy- 
 ini: the lake fisheries, and that the 
 waters of the lake were being polluted 
 by dead fish. My statement was com- 
 batteil by the then inspector. Latouche 
 Tupper, who, as I said l)efor.., was in 
 hearty sympathy apparently with the 
 .American interests. Thi' coiiseiiuence was 
 that I induced Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper 
 to grant a commission, and he u[)pointed 
 ;i lawyer in the town of Selkirk, and gave 
 him instructions to go to tlie lake during 
 itho winter time an^l take the evidence 
 I'roni all the fishermen that were engaged 
 ill this great tisli comiiany. This lawyer 
 went on and made a report, which I think 
 is in the department, in fact, 1 have seen 
 it within the last three or four weeks. It 
 is composed of a couple of liundr^'d sheets 
 of foolscap typewritten, fcvery man that 
 was e.\amined iiroved conclusively every 
 statement and every charge that had been 
 made regarding the manner in which the 
 American fish interests were operating on 
 that lake. Now, what liapiM'ned!- In tlie 
 spring of the year when tlnse poor men 
 came off the lake, men wlio liad l)een 
 robbed of a great industry, men who had 
 to work or starve, when they came in to 
 olitairi eniiiloyiiient froni the great Ameri- 
 can combine, thoy were met at t.iio door 
 of the oflici; by one of the men who had 
 a copy of the re|)ort of this commission in 
 his hand, and he would say to these men: 
 Mohn. vou swore so and so to Mr. Elliott; 
 you cannot work any longer for the lish 
 oniiiaiiy if you talk like that; you made 
 u mistake.' Consequently he look Uiat 
 man upstairs and made liiin swear just 
 the reverse. Ninety per cent of these men 
 were made to contradict tli( ir former evi- 
 dence. I pre.sume tliat reiiorl is in the de- 
 partment here, and was tile.l to eountract 
 the effect of the other report. I make this 
 statement here to-n' ht so that it may help 
 the minister to be on his guard in resrard 
 t 1 the inV''5tic;atio:i that ;- lu'.v goin'.' on in 
 
 Manitoba, and so that he may take mea- 
 sures to make it a fair and impartial one. I 
 was reading some of the evidAice that waa 
 taken at Winnipeg, and I want to draw 
 the miniater'a attention to it. I do not 
 know what power this commission has, but 
 I notice that every man who is examined 
 in Winnipeg, and I think also in Selkirk, 
 were all of them either owners of or stock- 
 holders in these fish companies, or men 
 directly interested in the large fishing 
 combine. There waa not one man who had 
 the interests of the public at heart, that is, 
 the interest of the settlers, who was ex- 
 amined in either of these cities, and this 
 is a very important fact. Some of tlie evi- 
 dence given by Mr. Guest I have under ray 
 hand; he is a fish dealer in Winnipeg, a 
 member of what is called the Northern 
 Fish Company. He states that the North- 
 ern Fish Company ia purely Canadian. 
 Well, I am sure the minister knows and 
 the department knows that a majority of 
 the stock of the Northern Fish Company 
 belongs to what is called the Ruck Eye Fish 
 Company, and the Buck Eye Company is 
 controlled by the Booth Fshing Pack- 
 ing Company of Chicago. Consequently, 
 the Booth Company controls the Northern 
 I'ish Company just as much as it does the 
 Dominion Fish Company on tliat lake. But 
 that man swears before this commission 
 that that company is purely a Canadian 
 company. Now, Sir, evidence of that kind 
 should be a warning to the minister, and 
 I hope his c. mmissioiiers who are taking 
 this evidence on Lake Manitoba will be in 
 a position to cross-examine these men. I 
 do not suppose that the paper gives all the 
 evidence, but I do not notice, in reading 
 the whiile nf t!ie evidence then given that 
 there has been any cross-e.xamining done. 
 Men have been allowed to come forward, 
 simply make their statements and walk out 
 of the" room. If that is the class of evidene ■ 
 that the commission is going to secure I 
 want to say to the minister that ho will lie 
 very much disap|Kiinied with the result. I 
 believe that the iiresent Minister of Mar-iie 
 is anxious to do what he can to prot'.ot 
 the fisheries. I have that feeling and I 
 hope I will not be disappointed. 
 
 There are one or two other items that I 
 want to cull the minister's attention to. 
 First, 1 want to say a word as to the stur- 
 L-eon fishery. This, at one time, was a pro- 
 fitable industry on Lake Winnipeg, l)ut the 
 same interests, the American fish interests, 
 laine in and depleted that fishery. We 
 find tliat while tliev were able to set from 
 600,000 to 80n,000 pounds of sturgecm in a 
 year and were able to do it year after year 
 the best they could do last year was to se- 
 cure ITO.OtW pounds. This proves conclus- 
 ively that the tish is almost extinct on that 
 lake. This is a serious question for our 
 
u 
 
 , 
 
 Indians upon that lake. We have a large 
 number of Indians along that lake and the 
 depletion of our fisheries, in addition to 
 being an outrage upon the people of those 
 great provinces of tlie west, is a great hard- 
 ship to the poor Indian who has to travel 
 miles and miles to get enough fish to feed 
 himself and his family. In the old days 
 an Indian could set his net any place along 
 the lake and get any fish he wanted. To- 
 day, he cannot do that. These waters are 
 depleted to such an extent that he cannot 
 put up the fish that he used to put up for 
 his winter's supply The sturgeon was a 
 very valuable (ish. We, in Manitoba, never 
 realized the value of this fish. The Ameri- 
 ciin.s came into our waters, however, and 
 they have made a great deal of money out 
 of sturgeon. The Indian or settler who 
 caught this sturgeon, received, as a rule, 
 75 cents or $1 at the most for a stureeon 
 weighing from 75 to 125 pounds. These 
 fish were taken to Chicago and sold from 
 9 to 14 cents a pound. The caviare that 
 was got from Iho product of these sturgeon 
 was a very valuable product in addition 
 Consequently, the Americans have reaped 
 a very great harvest out of our great in- 
 land waters. It does seem strange to me 
 that the Canadian government have been 
 almost powerless to protect our watc^rs from 
 the American fishermen. I could well 
 understand the difliculty along the interna- 
 tional waterways, but there should surely 
 be no difliculty in great lakes lik.' Lake 
 Winnipc:,', Lake Winiiipcgosis and Lake 
 Manitoba. They are in the heart of our 
 own country and we surely should be able 
 to kii'p the Americans from coming in and ! 
 taking the fish from under our no,«e. We 
 have, during the last 15 or 18 years, ' 
 been simply hewers of wood and drawers : 
 of water to tlie great American interests. 
 The settler who camn into that country in 
 the early day.s and who ought to be wealthy 
 io-day, as a result of the existence of these ' 
 great lialierie.-, is struggling for a living 
 while these American trusts have been 
 allowed to make hundreds of thou.sands of 
 dollar.-* out of the fishing industry. ! 
 
 I wuuM just like to say a word or two ' 
 liere regarding the province of Saskatclie- 
 wan. We have no great lakes there, but we j 
 have a lot of small ons. These lakes are be- i 
 ing rapidly depleted. I know this is not the j 
 report that the minister gets. I have read ! 
 the report.s that have come in from his in- ' 
 specturs, but, 1 would refer the minister ' 
 to the evidence given at Selkirk by one Mr. , 
 ■loliii Morrison. He swore that he had j 
 lished at Turtle lake, which is a small lake ' 
 in Saskatchev an. atul that he had taken j 
 out ten carloads of whitefish last winter. ■ 
 Hdw long do ynu think tliat lake can stand ' 
 that class of Ijshiiig? The iiievitablii re- ! 
 suit of eomiMPri'iu! lishinL- in these small 
 'akes is that they will b> depleted within | 
 
 a short time. I enter a plea to-night for the 
 settlers of that great province. Those people 
 who are going in there in thousands and, I 
 hope, by hundreds of thousands, wUl re- 
 quire all tlie fish that these small lakes will 
 yield. That is the fresh fish supply for 
 that province as Lake Winnipeg was to 
 Manitoba and her sister provinces. I think 
 we have a right to ask the government to 
 protect these fisheries and see to it that 
 the fish are kept not only for the resi- 
 dents but for the coming residents of tliese 
 great provinces. This is an industry which 
 gives employment to perhaps 5() or 60 men 
 during the winter time. They receive a 
 very small sum for the fish they take, just 
 enough to pay for their labour and nothing 
 for the fish. They get their wages and that 
 is all they get while the American Fish 
 Company get the fish. Our people who 
 want hsh in Manitoba to-uuy are paying 
 nearly double what they ought to pay for 
 fresh lisli. This is true of Winnipeg and 
 other towns throughout that province. 
 When I tell you that fresh fish in Winni- 
 peg commands the same price, or just 
 about the same price, as the same fish in 
 Chicago and other American cities you can 
 understand how great a hardship it is to 
 the people of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. 
 
 With regard to the Sturgeon question I 
 omitted to refer to Lac du Bonnet, a small 
 lake on the Winnipeg river. It is really an 
 e.xteiisioii of the Winnipeg river about 9 
 miles long and having an average width of 
 ■2 or 3 miles. It is a great sturgeon breed- 
 ing ground. That ground has been pro- 
 tected and I notice by the report of your 
 ollicer-the one thing that I have noticed 
 from the rei)ort of any olhcial of the de- 
 [lartment regarding the fisheries of that 
 country that meets with my approval -was 
 a statement coiiiniending the policy of pro- 
 tecting that little lake Lac du Honmt, 
 pointing out that it was teomiiig with 
 sturgeon that it was a reservoir or brew- 
 ing ground and ought to be protected. I 
 know there is a very strong effort beiii,; 
 made -and I know the minister knows— to 
 secure a license to fish that lake I trust 
 that the minister will carry out the policy 
 that iio has inaugurated and not allow any 
 commercial companies or even any set- 
 tlers to fish tliat lake for export purposes. 
 I strongly urge the minister— and I believe 
 that wliat 1 say now will be very popular 
 in the province of Manitoba— to prohibit the 
 export of sturgeon from Canada. Stur- 
 i:con are very scarce and sliould not 
 be exported from Canaila. A sliort season 
 might \>v allowed duriii_'' which the set- 
 tlers living along the lake might be allowed 
 to take sturgeon for tlie home ni.-irket only. 
 
 \i\ important question arises in connec- 
 tion with tiie settlers living along the Red 
 river. There are along that river a large 
 numlier of old settlers. These m-"!! liave 
 
12 
 
 lived there all their livet and have always 
 enjoyed the rifrht to take fish at any time 
 during the year, but under the present law 
 they are not allowed to take fl3h durijiK what 
 is called the close season. Very few fish 
 go up that river and all the fish the aettlers 
 take during the season would not amount 
 to as much as one of those great fish com- 
 panies would take out of Lake Winnipeg 
 in one day. 1 shall cite one case to illus- 
 trate the great hardship sometimes caused 
 by the enforcement of the law. In the 
 spring of 1897 an old woman, about 80 
 years of age, went down to the river to try 
 and get a fish. Many of these settlers, it 
 must be remembered, are very poor. This 
 old woman had a little scoop-net and was 
 fishine with it alone the shore when one of 
 the zealous inspectors of the department 
 came alon?, saw the old woman trying to 
 take fish during the close season, took the 
 net and broke it across his knee. The old 
 woman said: 'You micht as well take a 
 stone and knock my brains out as leave 
 me to starve.' That is a hard case, hut 
 there are many quite as bad. I wrote the 
 minister a letter upon this subject as fol- 
 lows: 
 
 January 28, 1909. 
 Hon. L. P. Brodeur, 
 
 Minister Marine and Fisheries, 
 Ottawa. 
 
 Honourable Sir,— I be raw your atten- 
 
 tion to what has provt ' t . ie a vpry great 
 hardship to many of the j.d settler.'! alnnR 
 the bank of the Rod river, that is, the en- 
 forcomout of a closed ^oason for the taking of 
 tish in the Ued river by the settlers who fish 
 only for their own ronsuniption. This has 
 proved to he, as I said alxive a great Hardship, 
 espeeially tt. many of the poorer families — this 
 applies especially to the spring of the year. 1 
 would tlierefore suggest and urge that you 
 eause the h>w. whirh re^trut'^ the settlers 
 along tne bank of this rivfi , ))etween the 
 Catholic mission, " or 8 mil<\.< north of the 
 town of Selkirk and the northern limits of the 
 city of Winnipeg, to Ije an'.uUed. — that all 
 settlers between these points be allowed to 
 fish at any season for home consumption only. 
 This change cannot have any very bad etfcvt 
 as all the fish taken by the settlers for this 
 purpose does not amount to as much as to 
 what one of these fishing companies would 
 take o«t of the lake nr at the mouth of the 
 Red river in one d.iy, — while on the other 
 ht Td, the change that will enable those poor 
 settlers to catch fish for their own table, as 
 they have been in the habit of doing for fifty 
 yeatS before this law was applied by your de- 
 partnieiit would piove a great blessing to 
 these pe<iple. 
 
 Trusting that yon will se your way clear to 
 meeting this request, I am. 
 
 Yours faithfuly. 
 
 I reM'ivcd a ro-^lv siL'iifd by Mr. VenninL". 
 one of the offlrials of flip department I do 
 not wish tu speak harshly of the officials 
 but I have alwav? felt that the officials of 
 the department did not txtend to the i>oor 
 
 settlers of that county the sympathy that 
 th«'V should. Mr. Venning says : 
 
 The minister directs me to ackDOwledgv the 
 receipt of your Utter of the 26tb ultimo, re- 
 
 S nesting that so far as that portion of U>« 
 ed river beween Catholic mission and the 
 north limits of the city of Winnipeg is con- 
 cerned, the fishery regulations be so arranged 
 as to allow the settlers at all tiroes of the 
 year to take fish for their own utie, and I 
 note your opinion that the amount taken 
 would be so small as to have no ill effect on 
 the permanence of the fishery. 
 • In reply I may say that the fishery regu- 
 lations are framed with a view to imposing 
 the least possible restrictions on the fishermen 
 compatible with the permanence of the fishery 
 and the experience of the department is to 
 make it very loath to countenance any fishing 
 whatever for a particular kind of fish during 
 the close season provided for its reproduction. 
 While the department would regret very 
 much to have to cause hardship to any of the 
 settlers it fails to see why it would not be 
 possible for such settlers to be able to provide 
 themselves with sufficient fish for their own 
 use under the ordinary domestic licvnse, the 
 fee on which is only $2, dnring the regular 
 fishing season. 
 
 This letter conies from one of the offiwais 
 of tliH department and shows how little 
 symiiathy they have with the hardships 
 tliat prevail along that river. These people 
 enjoyed the riirht to take these fish long 
 liefore we as Canadians had any right to 
 a foothold in that country, and it seems a 
 preat hardship that we should go in there 
 and allow our great corporations to kill fish 
 liv hundreds and millions of pounds and 
 ship th.m out of the country and at the 
 same time deny to those potjr people the 
 ri'-'li' t(i catch enouali tish to keep body 
 and sou! together. So I enter a plea with 
 the minister and ask him to see that this 
 privikce is pranted to these settlers from 
 this date on. It must he remembered that 
 these men do not sell the fish, what they 
 take are simply for their own use, and sure- 
 ly they should be allowed to catch enough 
 for their own consumption. 
 
 T!i«' question of fish culture is one of 
 creat imjiortance to the settlers along that 
 I.-ike and deserves careful attention. It is 
 •in industry requirinc very skilful manage- 
 ment but ' regret to say that the hatcher- 
 ies in M ''a have been conducted care- 
 lessly, tlessly and inefficiently. I 
 Iwlieve u._ ..nen the minister realizes what 
 his really taken place along the southern 
 end of the lake he will endeavour to repair 
 the f-'reat wronc that has been done to our 
 settlers. I believe that the depleted fish- 
 eries can be repaired to a great e.\tent 
 through the use of hatcheries properly man- 
 ned and managed, although little can be 
 aeeomplished with hatcheries conducted as 
 those in Manitoba now are. A hatchery 
 was built at Selkirk many years ago, un- 
 der the late t'overnment more as an ex- 
 periment than anything else. We have in 
 
13 
 
 I 
 
 charge of that hatchery a man who knew 
 nothing about fish culture, who had driven 
 a dray in Selkirk (or 20 years. He was 
 taken from that position and put in charge 
 of the flsh hatchery, and yet the department 
 expects good results from a hatchery of 
 that kind, managed by a man who knows 
 practically nothing about fish culture. 
 What happened? Two years ago, although 
 the government had spent over $10,000 in 
 tryins to secure spawn In Lake Winnipeg 
 their efforts were abortive simply because 
 the man in charge did not know his busi- 
 ness, and did not understand the taking of 
 spawn. The hatcheries at Selkirk and at 
 Lake Winnipeg were closed. A consign- 
 ment of spawn was sent from Ontario to 
 kocp the hatchery going, but when it reach- 
 i\l Selkirk, through the ignorance of the 
 man in charge, the spawn was allowed to 
 .ipoil and the hatchery was again clused. 
 Even when it is successful as it was this 
 year, the management is imperfect. At Sel- 
 kirk, when the young fry are ready and 
 must CD into the water, the water is unfit 
 f,>r them. 
 
 The Red river is clear of ioc tlirt'i> weeks 
 before Lake Winnipeg; the temperature of 
 the river rises rapidly and the fry have to 
 be deposited, and when they are di-cliurgej 
 the water of Red river is extremely muddy. 
 It is safe to say that not ten per cent of the 
 tish from the hatchery ever live to reach 
 Lake Winnipeg. Everybody knows this, the 
 department knows it. To-night from my 
 place in this House I put in a plea that 
 the hatchery be removed to where it will 
 do ."Jome good. I sii.'gcst that it be pl.iceil 
 on Big island or some other point on the 
 south end of Lake Winnipeg, and if tluit 
 be done it will to some extent help t-i 
 remedy the great wrong perpetrated, and to 
 replenish the waters in the south end of the 
 lake. There is no question that if there was 
 a batclicry placed on Mig island or some- 
 where on the south end of the lake that 
 »-tthin the next four or five years we would 
 have abundance of fish there, for the .set- 
 tlers at least. Two or three years ago we 
 spent .$'J4,00<) in building a hatcliery at 
 Beirns river and although Mr. .Jackson, the 
 late member for the county promised the 
 settlirs at the .south end that the hatchery 
 would be built on Big islaml, the influence 
 of the LTeat fi.sh companies was too stronij 
 and they bad it locatecl on the north end 
 of the lake so as to help to produce fish to 
 keeji that .\nierican combine supplied. 
 What I set out to say was that that hatch- 
 ery lay idle all last year, because, throuiih 
 tlie buni-'ling of the men employed to look 
 after this delicate business of fish culture, 
 no spawn was .secured. Not one of these 
 men in charge of the hatcheries has lind 
 any experience. The inspector of hatcheries 
 at Selkirk is a very fine fellow himself, but 
 ho is a lumberman who attends to his lum- 
 ber business in Selkirk, and he knows no 
 
 more about fish culture than I do about 
 making a watch. That is the kind of men 
 that is placed in charge of the flsh culture 
 of the province of Manitoba, and is it any 
 wonder we have had such results? The 
 man in charge of the hatchery at Beren's 
 river was a friend of the late member, Mr. 
 Jackson, and he was taken off the farm 
 to be put in charge there. II we are to 
 succeed in replenishing that lake with fish, 
 if we are to get any value for the thousands 
 of dollars we have spent, it is absolutely 
 necessary that competent men should be 
 put in charge. I trust that the report of 
 the commission will be a comprehensive 
 one, and that it will enable the rain'ster 
 to judge of these matters himself and not 
 be dependent upon his officials. Now, Sir, 
 I have endeavoured to place this matter 
 as fairly as possible before the House. 
 There is no politics in it or there ought to 
 be none, but unfortunately at times politics 
 do get mixed up in it and politics have a 
 good deal to do with the destruction of our 
 lakes. I have tried to place the matter fair- 
 ly before the minister in the hope that I 
 may induce him to grapple with the ques- 
 tion and to remedy the evils that exist. 
 Our Manitoba fisheries are a great natural 
 resource of the province and they ouglit to 
 be well guarded. There are a large number 
 of citizens in my own constituency who de- 
 pend largely for a livelihood on the pursuit 
 of this industry, and the fall and winter 
 fishing on the lake is quite an important 
 enterprise. There is no danger to the fish- 
 eries from winter fishing because every time 
 the ne' is put into the water it is taken 
 ■ lut again with the fish that are in it. but 
 in the case of the summer fishing miles 
 and miles of these nets are often torn away 
 and they go sailing through the lake killing 
 and destroying the fish us they pass along 
 and polluting the waters. I ask the minis- 
 ter to see that the commission which inves- 
 ti'.'ates this ijiiestioii will not be content 
 with taking the mere statements of certain 
 people, but that they will have power to 
 su()i)a?na witnesses and cross-examine them 
 so that a true knowledije of the conditions 
 on Lake Winnipeg may be obtained and an 
 aile'iuate remedy applied. 
 
 Niov, in cdiuliision, allow me to again 
 press upon the minister the absolu! ' neces- 
 sity of (>rectintr at oiue an up-to-date hatch- 
 ery 'Ml Biir islaiul. This end of the lake 
 has hen thorouirhly depleted of whitefi.sh 
 fi^r eciinniercial jmrposes. and as it is the 
 portion of the lake where the large lee- 
 lamlie settlement reside, it ought to be re- 
 plenislieil at the earli<'st possilile date. 
 That tlie lake has been depletivl is evi- 
 iloncecl from the fact that the companies 
 are to-day paying 3} cents per pound for 
 v.hitefish that they used to pay about one- 
 ilM.irter ef one cent jier jiound for. .\ great 
 wrong has been done to our settlers and to 
 our residents, not only of Manitoba and 
 ef all the Eastern provinces, where our 
 
14 
 
 magnificent whiteflgh ought to come but 
 on account of the manipulation of our fish- 
 ery by American interests. Canadians have 
 to pay double or nearly so for their own 
 fish than they ought to. I therefore 
 strongly urge upon the .government the 
 wisdom of nil up-to-date system of hatch- 
 eries on the lake, especially in the south 
 end. placed under the management of ex- 
 perts in fish culture, and a thoroughly 
 t unadian policy, from this date, regarding 
 the companies that are iillowed to fish. As 
 far ns possible, the fishing ought to be hus- 
 biinded for our sotflers ; their fall and 
 winter flshinc oueht to bo preserved, and 
 every encouriieement ouirht to be given to 
 tlii.s kind of fisbinsj. 
 
 Tiiisd.'iy. May 18. I!xm. 
 
 Mr. O, H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). Mr. 
 Speaki r, Ik fore the House goes into Sup- 
 ply. I wish to call the attention of the 
 hen. Minister of Mnrine and Fisheries (Mr. 
 Brodeur) to an editorial in one of the Win- 
 pipeu- jiapers on the statement he made in 
 the House in reply to some remarks I had 
 the lionour to make in this House on the 
 I-'itli i.f the month. 1 stated at that time 
 that f.ake Winnipeg was being dejileted. 
 The niini.iter, in reply, said that th. re- 
 j.ort.s sliowe.l fhnt Lake Wiiiiiipe?: was not 
 beint' depleted. I am going to (luute just 
 a f"w s.ntt'nces from the Winnipeg •Trib- 
 une ' of the !4th instant. Thifi is u pajier 
 that has been in touch with this question 
 durin:.' tlie !a?t lifteeii or -ix:een vears ani 
 is fhdroiiL'hly competent to speak upon tlie 
 subjeet : i 
 
 DEPLETION OF FISHEKIE.S. 
 Hon. Mr. Br^^deur «ni<l the rejiorts showed 
 that there was no depletion of the fisheries 
 of Manitoba. 
 
 At the moment when he spoke those ish 
 
 words, witnesses were giving evidence Mioio 
 his own fisheries commission at Gimle, the 
 headquarters for many of the fishermen on 
 the lake. The report says:— 
 
 The majoritv were in favour of the lake 
 being closed for whitefish in the southern 
 portion until the fish increased sufficiently in 
 numbers to make it profitable and that the 
 closed season for domestic fishing licenses 
 should commence on August 15 for summer 
 fishing. 
 
 A few years ago in the southern portion of 
 the lake, the waters fairly teemed with white- 
 fish; fishery stations were in nr^ration, and 
 remained in operation until thr devastation 
 was almost complete. Then they were closed. 
 And yet the Minister of Fisheries stands up 
 in parliament and says: 
 
 The reports showed' that there was no de- 
 pletion of the fisheries of Manitoba. 
 
 Take further testimony given before the 
 fishery commission yesterday: 
 
 Rev. J. P. Solmundson, secretary of the 
 flsiierman s union, wac the last speaker. He 
 claimed that United States capital was the 
 direct causa of the depletion of the whitefish 
 
 in Lake WinnipH- and while he was in favour 
 of fishermen being allowed longer neta and 
 ( iuiiHlian-hiiniired firms doing businens in the 
 northern part of the lake where whiteHsh 
 were itill qaite plentifal. he objected ttronglv 
 
 iLn,f„V'°tfc """fl' 1'"*S»" Canadian namei 
 •eonring the product for the American 
 market. 
 
 The fact ii that the American capitalists 
 have m the majority of instances, been in 
 league with friends of the government. The 
 old, rotten system of placing the country's 
 resources at the disposal of friends, is at the 
 Dottom of the depletion of Lake Winnipeg 
 and other western inland waters. Friends, 
 aa they are called of the government have 
 1 Jt "e™«M0UB rake-o« in this business, 
 and the protests of the whole people have been 
 iguored. 
 
 Tliis is from the 'Tribune' of May 14 the 
 I niurning after I had the honour of address- 
 mi: this Hdiise. Now, for the purpose of 
 convinciii!.'. if posible, the hon. minister 
 that Lake WiiinipeL' is in a depleted condi- 
 tion, I wisli til read from another important 
 report, made by u man who is entirely im- 
 partial, taken from the report of the Royal 
 Northwest Mounted Pidiee for 1907. This 
 is an extraet from the report of Inspector 
 E. A. Pelletier. of a patrol from Reeina to 
 Churchill and return, in the winter of 
 l!HJ6-7. It is as follows: 
 
 Ueginn. March 11, 1907. 
 With regard to fishing companies;— 
 T take the liberty of suggesting that bv 
 what I heard and what I believe some restric- 
 tions shduld bo made in the extent of their 
 operations. 
 
 Th.' fish e.iught. I hear, is mostly all ex- 
 ported to the United States market, and it 
 is foreseen that sonr there will be hardly 
 fish emnigb left to feed the natives and their 
 dogs. If some low could be passed to forbid 
 the exportation of fish caught in the Kee- 
 watin district, outside of Canada, it would 
 benefit the .-ountry a great deal, for at this 
 rate the fish will soon become extinct or 
 j practically so. Something like it is in Lake 
 i Superior. Lake of Woods, and is getting ia 
 I regard to Lake Winnipeg, which is getting 
 I fished out. 
 
 i Fishing companies are operating as far as 
 ; Lake Tipiwesh. The new railway coming in 
 from the Pass will come through a country 
 of g, 1(1 fishing lakes. 
 
 Fisiiir, companies find it even profitable to 
 haul fish some 100 or 150 miles from railway 
 transportation with horses. One can easily 
 iinagiiie if a railway ever comes through to 
 Fort Churchill to what extent the country will 
 he exploited by these fishing companies, and as 
 these lakes are of comparatively small sise it 
 tt_ill take very few years indeed to drain them 
 of all their fish, and then the natives will be 
 left starving if a poor year of fish comes. As 
 It IS now, they can always fall back on fish 
 after everything else fails. 
 
 Even then this country is growing now at 
 such a rate that if no restrictions on the ex- 
 port of fish are made at an early date there 
 will be no fish left for our own consumption. 
 Evidence of this kind, coming from a man 
 
( 
 
 'A 
 
 1 
 
 r 
 
 r 
 
 IS 
 
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 f 
 
 V 
 
 I 
 
 who is entirely impartial, who has no otlier 
 interest to serve than the public interest, 
 ought to impress the minister that there is 
 something wrong. The hon. gentleman 
 seemed to take exception to the statement 
 I miide regarding- the laxity of the officials 
 of his department. 
 
 Mr. 8I'P:AKER. The hon. gentleman can- 
 not refer to a previous debate. 
 
 Mr. BRADBURY. 1 am very sorry I can- 
 not. However, there seems to be some dif- 
 ference between the hon. minister and my- 
 self regarding the position these gentlemen 
 occupy. Either the officials of the department 
 have been derelict in their duties regarding 
 the fisheries of Luke Winnipeg or the min- 
 ister of the department has counteracted 
 their reeonwnencliitions. If the olliciala have 
 been honest, and have notified the govern- 
 ment from time to time of the fact-' then 
 the covernment tiiiist take the full fi spon- 
 sibility for the destruction nf these (.Teat 
 fisheries. There is no question that Lake 
 Winnipeg is in u depleted condition to-day. 
 The hon. minister quoted from the report 
 of one of his olliciuls. who, as I pointed out, 
 has from time to time made reports which 
 were contrailictory and therefore not reli- 
 able. However, I am going to read for the 
 minister's information an extract from the 
 report of 1906 of the inspector at Selkirk, 
 the gentleman whom the hon. minister 
 quoted the other night. 
 
 Some hon. MEMBERS. Order. 
 
 Mr. BRADBURY. I do not like to irri- 
 tate the hon. fjentleman. but I wish to place 
 this report on record, in the hope that it 
 may open the eyes of the hon. minister to 
 the fact that reiwrts made by the ins[)eetor 
 at Selkirk are not altogether reliable. In 
 this report for 1906, the inspector states : 
 
 I would JQst say in conclusion, that the year 
 1901 has Ijeen, ou the whole, a very success- 
 ful one, considering that the weather througli- 
 out th« year, was very unfavourable, for the 
 carrying on of fishing operations. In some 
 cases nets were set from four days to a week 
 without being lifted and fish taken therefrom. 
 This of cour.se hi\d a very b.id effect on the 
 fishing as a good many of the fish deterior- 
 ated before the nets could he lifted and in 
 • (iii^pqupiire were unfit (or the market. It 
 is a hard proposition to overcome this loss as 
 
 long af gill n«tt are used for the capturing 
 uf tish in our waterH. 
 
 I'i«h of all kinds are very plentiful except 
 iturceon and whitefiib, both thea* valuable 
 fish Keeni to be getting scarcer every year. 
 The setting anart as a breeding ground the 
 waters of the Winnipeg river was a move in 
 the right direction, and will be u benefit to 
 the fiHheries of our province as long as it it 
 
 Wept closed to commercial fishing. The waters 
 <>f the Winnipeg river are teeming with 
 young sturgeon. 
 
 The common whitefish in our waters seem 
 to be getting scarcer e\ery veur at any rate 
 they are harder to locate during the fishinu 
 season than they wore a few years ago. 
 
 I wish to draw the attention of the min- 
 ister and employee to the fact that his 
 own inspector as lute as 1906 pointed 1 
 out that Lake Winnipeg was in a de- '< 
 pleted condition and that the fish were 
 getting scarcer every year. 1 do not in- 
 tend to take up the time of the House fur- 
 ther than to say that I hope the minister 
 will be cuided by the reports which I have 
 tried to lay before him. honestly and fairly, 
 without any political bias, and "will see that 
 they are looked into by the Fish Commis- 
 sion. I fear very mucfi that that commis- 
 sion is not going to accomplish the work 
 for which it was appointed, because I have 
 noticed in the refiorts of the papers that 
 one of the nian.iL'ors of the fish companies 
 aiiainst which I have been protesting, is fol- 
 lowing that Commission up from place to 
 place giving his evidence at different places 
 and no doubt influencing the men who come 
 li' fore the Commission. There is no iloulpt 
 that the evidence given before that commis- 
 sion is being secured to a very large extent 
 by this man. All I ask is that the (.eople 
 have a fair chance to put their case before 
 that commission. As I pointed out to the 
 minister this morning in private conversa- 
 tion, unh'ss the witness.s are subpcenaed 
 by the commission, the evidence will not be 
 properly secured from the standpoint of the 
 people. The companies will take good care 
 to have their evidence placed before the 
 commission, but there is no one looking 
 after the interests of the people, and con- 
 sequently I am afraid that if the commis- 
 sion do not sulipcena witnesses and cross- 
 examine tliem direct, the inquiry will not 
 be a fair one. and will not accomplish the 
 result which it was designed to accomplish. 
 
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