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Mr. G. H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). I wish 1 to draw the attention of the Hou.se to a statement rocarjinc the fisheries of Mani- toba and Saskatchewan. This is a very important question to a hirire numlier of mv constituents, who are interested in tiie fishing industry, as well as to the other residents of these two provinces. It is im- portant to my own constituency from the fact that a lariie number of my constituents depend for a livlihood upon the fisheries and important to the other residents of tlie two provinces from tlie fact that the man- ipulations of the .\nierican combine have increased the cost of fish to nearly double what it ousht to be. Some fift-een or ei'.-li- teen years aero tho.se who knew lake Win- nipeg ami its wonilerfu! resources were wont to boast that we liad in that province the irreatcst whitefish fishery in the worl.l. which promised an abundant, supply of fish for all time to come for Manitoba and the other provinces of the west. Early in the seventies, a larcre number of Ice- landic settlers were attracted to that lake lareely on account of this crreat fish- ery. These people settled along the south- west shore of Lake Winnipeg, and, at that time, found no difficulty in obtaining white- 3046—1 ! 1 fish in larze quantities in the southern part of the lake. They secured all the fish they reqiiirel for domestic use and to sup- ply at that time the market of Manitoba. Tliis afforded triese people i nty of food ready at their doors and promised a great future industry to the settlers, an industry fiom which these people, no doubt, expec- ted to reap great benefit. But unfortunate- y for their hopes and for our great fisher- ies, the lar:.'e c.immercial interests that had already depleted the fisheries in the lakes of Ontario were not Ion? in scenting out l^ia i;reat flsherv on Lake Wlnnipei; and, as earlv as 1881, just as soon as railroad com- nnmication made it possible, we find these interests uetting ready for the work of de- struction which thev have just about com- pleted in that creat lake at the present time. Mr. D. F. Reid and Mr. Clark, of roUinirwood, were the pioneer fishermen of that day. Mr. Reid is one of the commis- sioners "appointed to investigate the fisher- ies at this time. In 1881. he and Mr. Clark established operations on the south end of the lake and had no difficulty in securing an abundant supply of whitefish lor the market at that time. In 1885 they put on a steam tug, and in one seasoa put m^n » \ V i>\*iA**« up l&O tons of flfh with a very small plant. Thi« was the conimencenieiit of the export of whitetish from Manitoba. As soon as our fish reached the Chicago market, the great American interests were not long in realiz- ing that there was magnificent whiteflsh in the western provinces. In IH86 we find established in that lake what was called the Manitoba Fish Com|<any. But in real- ity it was an American concern, flC per cent of the stock being owned or controlled by gentlemen living in De^rnit. This company started operations in a big way. They had one or two steamers and a couple of tugs. They had their large freezers, one at Swamp island, one at Little Saskatchewan, and an- other at Selkirk. For two years this com- pativ. with the pioneer fish company, Reid and Clark, took from 1,200 to LSOO tons of fish in that lake, nearly all of which wore exported to Chicago and other American cities. These tlsh were cleaned and frozen us soon n.-* taken out of the water and tielil in freezers until the winter and shij)- ped out of the provime during the winter season. The fish at that time ovcr- at'ed from 4J to 6 pcpunds each. The men who eauirlit the fish, nur set- tlers, Icelanders principally, received from the American interests M cents a fish. When I tell yc j tliat those same fish retail- ed on the markets of Chicago and other American cities for ten cents and twelve cents per pound, you will realize the im- mense profit that accrued to this American interest. As early as 1890, the possibility of the depletion of this great lake became apparent. Repres<'ntatinns were made to the Department oi Fisheries here by prominent men in Manitoba and by the settlers engaged in the business on Lake Winniiieg. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper, then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, was induced to send a commissioner to that province to make investigation. He in- structed Mr. Wilniot, who was then com- missioner, to proceed to Manitoba and make a thorough investigation of this ques- tion. I have in my hand the report made by Mr. Wilmot. and, for the information of the House and for the information of the minister, who, 1 know, is a very busy man, and not likely to have time to read these treat reports, I intend to read a few pass- ages; Ottawa, October, 1890. The Hon. Charles H. Tupper, Minister of Marine and Fisheries. Sir,— Having received instructions from you to go to Manitoba to examine into the condi- tion of Lake Winnipeg fisheries, covering the grounds mentioned in certain corresponaence regarding the alleged depletion of whitefish, and to investigate other matters connected therewith; and having carefully read the num- erous files of correspondence, relating to the above subject, which have passed between the Departments of the Interior and of the Fish- ng Mnonally nt fishing stal TilitWl stations on Lake «riM ; and alio hAving of the most important Winnipeg, mentioned in the* aforesaid correi- pondeuce, I beg to report, fur the information of your department, the folln'ving views which I entertain and the conclaiioni I have formed an the subject matt -r under consideration. Lnko Winnipeg lies partly in the two prov- inces of Manitoba and Keewutin. It is the larg- fit and mott important body of water in these provinces, with an area of some 9,5S0 square miles. Its extreme length takes in about 270 . les, and its greatest width is about 70 miles. It runs in a line nearly north and south. The southern half of the lake is very narrow, and largely eat up with small bays and inlets, and filled with numerous islands. The northern nr upper half opens out to a width of some 60 miles, and covers nearly three-fourths of the whole area <^ the lake. The principal pro<luct from Lake Winnipeg is the famous highly-priced whitefish, core- genus albus which, lor domestic and coninier- ciul purposes, no doubt stands foremost ou the list of fresh water fishes in America. These fish have been, and no doubt are yet, quite numerous in L.tko Winnipeg, although it is held by many persons, and truly so, that in certain localities a depletion is already felt from the wholesale methods of fishing practised by certain fishing companies, who cnrrv ou this industry quite e.\ten8ively almost wholly for the United States markets. Much controversy has arisen regarding this alle)-fj excessive fishing in Lake Wiunipsg lietweeii thest> fishing couipunies and leading inhabitants of Manitoba, and also with the setllers and Indian tribes around the lake, which has culminated to such a degree at hist as to call for the serious consideration of the Dopartnioiits of the Fi>heries, and of the In- terior to investigate this matter from a dis- interested and lublic standpoint, not only with regard to the above issues, but al<o in the interests ef the general public. It is therefore of vital importance to all concerned that some practical solution should be reached by which, if possible, the fishing industries of Lake Winnipeg should not l)e speedily impoverished, but shouH be main- tained as a source of wealth, and luxury for the inhabitants generally of Manitoba, both for the present and future. • ••••• There are several separate interests con- nected with the fisheries of Lake WinnipeK which are dealt upon somewhat lengthily in the departmentnl correspondence referred to- each claiming that the views held by them are the correct ones, in so far as the question of depletion of the whitefish in the lake is con- cerned. These diSerent interests may be classed as follows: — 1. The Indian tribes under the control of the Department of the Interior claim that, many parts of the lake which formerly sup- plied them with the requisite abundance of lish-food are now showing depletion by reason of the excessive and wholesale fishing carried on by certain large fishing corporations. 2. Prominent officials and leading citizens of Manitoba also represent that Lak.» Winnipeg is undergoing a falling oS in many localities of its former whitefish crop, and that, there- fore, means should be instituted to stay this i 91J2S8 too rapid dMtraotion of fiih by jadicioai rit- faUtioni, whioh, whilit protactiDs th* flih, will not too Mriouly intorfero with th« fiih- iag indaitriM of tbo ooantrT. • ••••• Fir«t.— " Th* Indiani, knd th* interoiti of th» i>*p«rtm«nt of tbo Interior.' VolnminoM OTidano* ii givtn in th* corrot- Kndano* thowing quit* conclaiiToly that th* diau on wmo of th* roaarr** aronnd Lak* WinniiMg »r« pnilaring from th* want of their formar rapplioa of whit*ttih, which in pait TMira war* obtain*d readily and in great abondancei and notabl* inttanc** ar* r*Iat*d wher* watara which at on* tim* w*r* teaming with th*s* liih hav* now iMcom* very scarce, and faari are entertained that the usuul Kup- pliea of tiih-food for th* Indiana will loon be at an end, and that this has been brought about by orer-eahing at the ri' iitha of rirera by fish trader!, who are permi .ed to carry on this exceaaive fishing regardieiis of consequeu- ees. It is also represented that unless this McklesB system of fishing be dibcontiuued these Indians, who are the wards of the gov- •rnment, will hare to be supported by other means from the public funds of the country. These are no doubt pressing facts, and must b* ao considered from an uninterested and practical comprehension of the state of affairs aa ther now exist. It is therefore "Mpedient that the gavernment should meet t' s subject in the spirit of reciprocity; as b< ween the requirements of the Indian, the settler and th* fiah trader each hare their rights and are entitled to full consideration as inhabitants of the country. Second.— The statements made by prominent individuals and leading inhabitants of Mani- toba are, that over-fishing of the whitefish in Lalie Winnipeg is being experienced, and is steadily increasing, and that it should be atayad, in the interests both of the present and lucoiuing inhabitants of Manitoba and the Northwest, and that the whitefish industry ahould be studiously husbanded. This advocacy for the preservation of the fishing wealth in Lake Winnipeg br th* leading inhabitants of Manitoba ahould be sustained by the Depart- ment of Fisheries, in order to prevent a repe- tition of said experiences which are now felt in many of the waters in the eastern provinces, where over-fishing has brought depletion to inch an ext*nt as tu be almost wholly beyond Ncovery. Formerly this industry was pursued in the lower or southern parts of the lake; but the catch becoming much lessened there the fish traders have established themselves about midway up the lake, and at Selkirk island, at th* head of the lake. The principal points for their operations at present are at Bercn's island. Reindeer island, and the mouth of the LitUe Saskatchewan river, about midway of the lake, and at Selkirk island, near the mouth of the Big Saskatchewan, at the north end. Other places may be only temporarily fished; but the above named localities form th* present headquarters of the fishing cum- panie*. At Beren's island a good natural harbour ii formed on the southern side. Here the two principal firms have each extensive ice-honsea and freeaing-honses, alao landing piers for 20M-H their ateam-tnga and barfaa; similar werka, bnt laaa aztenaiv* ar* at Raindaer ialnnd and at Selkirk island. But the most •xtenaiT* buildings and works are inat at th* mouth ol th* Little 8askatcb*wao river, where two oom- I penlaa eaoh bav* larg* ie*-houa*«, freeaer* I and piers on either side of the mouth of thta I river, which la only abont 100 yarda wide. Th* praaant mod* of fiahing by th* compan- i*a ia with gill-nats, whioh ar* fish*d at cer- tain distances off the ahor** of th*a* ialanda, I varying from on* to six and t*n mil«a. accord- ing to th* ' running' of th* whitefiah, aa it ia Mrmed. If sovere stoim<t prevail, which is very otten the ease in the open lakes, these nets cannot in many cases be lifted until the winds subside, whicn may not be for several days, in whioh case the fish in the meantime die, partial de- composition sets in, and they become unfit for use, and the whole catch, sometimea amount- ing to many thousands, are thrown away. (Jreat destruction is caused in this way, and a question has arisen whether it would not be better to do away with the gill net and substitute the pound or trap net under cer- tain regulations, as the pound net would not only save the fish whioh are lost by the gill nets, but would also raise the standard of the , whitefish generally in the markets of th* I country; whereas it is now somewhat lowered [ by the many fish which are offered for sale that are unwholesome for food, by reason of the blemished fish whose injuriea and defect* , are hidden by the freexing prooeaa. The pound ' net would no doubt be very acceptable to the I fiahing companies generally, not only to ob- viate the difficulties above mentioned, but on l account of being less expensive in their gen- eral working. The quantity of gill nets set in Lake Winni- ?eg in 1889 covered about 60 miles in length, 'hcse gill nets, though apparently small, and averaging but 6 feet in depth, are nevertheleae from their many miles in length where set, very deadly engines, and capable of causing great havoc in circumscribed limits, auch aa ;.iiiiill Ui.v- .mil ri\.M-. As iiii .'viiliMni. of this it may be stated here that in Lake Winnipeg, where only three fishing companies are carry- ing on the fishing trade, the quantity of whit^ fish reported to oe shipped by one firm alone in 1889 amounted to 9,000 boxes of 130 pounds each, making 1,170,000 pounds, the other two companies making up a similar amoiint, thua showing that this small number of tradera are capable, with the present improved methoda of fiahing, of capturing upwards of two and a quarter millions of pounds of white- fish in Lake Winnipeg during one short season alone, the greater portion of which passed directly out of the province, causing the home consumption of Manitoba and ether parts of the country to be only sparsely supplied, and at high prices. This taking of upwards of two and a quarter millions of pounds of whitefish by these fishing companies in Lake Winnipeg, more particu- larly that portion of the catch taken at the mouth of the Little Saskatchewan river, must, in the common sense reasoning or things, go to show, that originally intended balance of nature regarding these fish is being largely interfered with, and to such an extent •r .caught by »ll oth.r flAormon. IndiMi »nd iitUri in othof P»rU of th. lako during tho wholo Bihing MMon^o'^tho yoar. Tho following quoitionii rolnting to tho whi?.«.ha.h.ri5. in L«;k«^'"'P!«V°«;]'Ji ■ittod for n>T coniidor»tion oro horowJta UMworod foriktim:— j.„u*i«» 1. Whothor th.ro rooUy oiiit. » ,*'«^'^'V \ •f wbiUfith in th. w»t.r. »' L.k. Winn pogf Th.r. ii k gradual but itwdr d.pUtjon of j tho whit.aih product of Uko Winnipou going on! from the .II*:tt of th. prw.nt .y.Um .1 . Bshing in cortain parti of t" '»«•■ . «. If io. in what water*, and what ar« th. j oaoMs of it? .. „ ! Tho depletion is experienced more particu- | Urlr at the mouthi of the larger riveia. and , ,^ tho lower parts of the lake. partKularly , in the Little Saskatchewan rirer and ht. Martin's lake, caused by ovor-Bshing at im- , proper times, notably at the mouth and buy of : IheXittle Saskatchewan river. Ihis cause, if permitted ti. be continued here, and tu be al- lowed in other places similarly situated in other parts of the lake, must assuredly hapten rapid depletion and eventually termination of the whitefiih ir 'ustry of Lake Winnipeg. 3. What areth.- <mediM? . » .u Th. remedies nre to reasonably restrict tne wholiwil.. Ii-liiim ii"W .uMied 1)11 by tlie hsli- 11,1,' iiinipaiiii^. Iiv judicious reKulatiiuin, and to wholly prevent these companies, and others, from tishiug in certain well known localitieM, -here the whiteKsii congregate m great uui:i- ^.s prior to tho close season and preparatory to their breeding time. • .•■•• Mr. Wiliiiot. wlio was tlioii the Com- miiwioiior ul Ki»lario.<, nporteJ that if these ooiiipiiuies were alluwod to continue taking such t-'reat ([uautities of lisli out of the lake each vrar the waters would surely be depleted. After the evidence contained in this report an J the finUinas of the com- mission it would be only reasonable to as- sume that the Fishery Uoparliiient would have seen to it that lishin-j on the scale then in vcgue would have been checked. In-'ead of that we lind that these large coninitrcial companies were allowed to increase their operations and instead of two fishini; com- panies there were four or five large com mer- mcrcial companies operating in that lake. Thi' result is, as Mr. Wilmot predicted, that the lake is rai>i.ily becoming depleted of lish. Mr. BRODEUR. Is my hon. trien<I not aware tliat the reeomniendations contained in that report were adopted by the depart- ment? Mr. BRADBURY. No. the recommend*- tion. in that report were not »<1°?!;«'J, .»'^! of the recommendations were adopted, but the chief recommendation. th»t eommercl.l f^sliliiB ihould be checked, was not ftdopt«d. The recommendation as to defining th. boundaries where commercial fi»hing tjould be allowed was adopted, but even that U ,'b:en violated by the fishing comp.me. within the la*t two y«»ri by fl«hing »n i I'laygreon lake. At tlx o'clock the House took recett. After Beceu. Hou-ii' resumed at eifjht o'clock. Mr BR.\DBURY. Mr. Spriker, at six o'clock I was drawing the alt<'ntion of tho House to a statement of the luanti'V J' "hiU-ti-h taken out of Lake Winnipeg from 1890 to 1907 by the comerciol com- panieji. 1 will not weary the House by rea.iintt 'he full statement but will intent mvseH with making one or two quotations from this sUlenieiit and. with your permis- sion. I will hand the Uatemeiit in to Han- s'lrd' . „. Whitefish Whitelish Sturg><"ia Lake shipiwd from Winnipeg. Manitoba. Lbs. Lbs. Llh. 2.2M,000 ISflO.. IhM. . IsM.. lH9t.. 1»9.'). . iHiW.. IK97.. 1S!W. . IM!t.. 1900.. 3,068,790 3,873.000 , 2.370,000 , 2.659,000 . 3,470,NfiO . 3,270,000 . 2.,i37.«00 1.966.000 , 3,895.000 5.0<M).000 3,499.520 5,M3.000 7,276,000 7,Wt,.T00 9.100.000 8.800,000 6.000.500 6.136.000 3.69.5.000 4.M.787 9ai.soo 600.000 600.000 600,000 600.000 600.000 325.000 177.000 PM)-.' ' " . ■ 6,000,000 190.")' 7.000.000 190l" 6.000.000 lin)-," 6,500.000 iljoii ' 5.000.000 {907:: :. i.ow-ww In I8'.f.'. when Mr. Wilniot. the then com- „..issioner. made his report, they were tikinu' '2'25O(10() 11.^. of Nvhite fish out of '.ake Winnipeu' Mr. Wilniot at that tune pointed out clearly that if this continued, vithin a very short time. Lake Winnipeg would be depleted. We mi'-'ht naturally h;ive ..xpectcd that the department at that lime and since would have endeavoured to curtail the quantity of v,hitetish that was being killed in Lake Winnipeg, but. in.-^tead of that, we find that year after vear this amount increased until, in 1903. "there were 7.000,000 lbs of whitefish taken cut of Lake Winiiii>eg by the .\mericaii fish combine. In all during these seven- teen years this American combine took out „f this lake about 68.000,000 11>8. of whitelish and there was a total shipment from the #>* province of Manitoba ol M.OOO.OOO Ibf., the (iklance being taken out of Lake Manitoba and Lake Wlnnlpegosla. In addition to that there were 5,320.000 Iba. ol iturgeon. ThU valuable flub. I may *ay, li ahnoit extinct in Lake Winnipeg. The lake haa almoit been depleted and the reason for that u that it l«ke» a very long time for iturgeon to mature. It taket about twelve or thirteen yean for a iturgeon t'> reach the weight at from 10 to 16 lb». We have had Blur- geon taken out of Luke Wlnnlpeir that weighed 125 lbs. Mr. HENDERSON. How old are they? Mr BRADBURY. Some of them are ieventy years of age. Mr. HENDERSON. That is a fishy •tory. Mr. B1.\DBURY. While the»e figures iihow the amount of fish put up by the lurce • American fl»h combines, they do nut l"- gin to account for the amount of tigh kiUei! by the methods <^niployed by the Ameri- can fish Interests uiiJ by other commerciul companies. It is well known that tlie method of fishing In Lake Winnipeg is I the uill net. We have had as much as sixty milos uf gill net stretched in Lake Win- nipeg at one time by these coininercial companies. During the month of Septem- ber «c have as a rule, very stormy wea- ther. There are days and days when the fishermen cannot visit the nets. The con- sequence is that the nets are killing fi*!! all the time. Some of these nets are swept away from their moorings and lost, and, goinir (loatinu through tlu' lake, the most deadly engine one could imagine, killing fish and polluting the water as tln-y pass through the waters until they are thrown up on some beach where hundreds of tons of fish lie rottinL', and polluli" tin wat>r. This Sir, is one of the greatest factors, and, 1 may say. it is the greatest factor in the .lepletion and destruction of our once great whitefish industry in I/akc Winnipeg. Unfortunately for our fisheries and for our settlers along Lake Winnipeg, almost immediatily after Mr. Wilniot hRti made his report and had pointed out the danger to the Lake Win- nipeg fishing industry from the methods practised by tlu lartie combines, he retired from office being Men an old man and a man of very great experience. Mi. Wihnot had been in the employ of the government for m.any years and he had been under, 1 be- lieve, the best deputy that the Department of Marine and Fisheries ever had. 1 am speaking of the late William Smith. He, Wilmot. understood what tliese interests had done alone the shores of the great lakes in Ontario, he knew whit their methods had resulted in and lie knew that they would result in similar destruction in Lake Winni- ptig. He pointed out in hit report, in a very specific and clear manner, what Uioae ciimpanlei were going to do in Lake Win- nipeg if not restricted, and it is remark- able that the department did not act mora vigorously upon that report. He retired ■• I have said just alter making thia report, and the gentleman who was appointed to fill hii position was the present comniiaeloner, Prolesaor Prince, a man who came to this country Irom the old land entirely ignorant of tlie conditions that prevailed on Lake Winnipeg, entirely ignorant of the meth- ods practised by the American fish in- terests and entirely ignorant of the reiulta of those methods on the Ontario lake*. Con- sequently, when he came to Manitoba he was handira[>ped in such a way as to make it almost impossible for him to realise tliat there was any ureat danger of the de- [ilition of Lake Winnipeu by the methoda Practised by the coinnu'reiai inti rests. No (.oubt th's "idea was created and supported .strongly by the then resident inspector ol lislicrie"?, " I speak of the late Latouche Tupi)er. I know it is an old maxim, which I intend lareely to follow to-niirht, to always speak well of the dead, bJt to do justice U.} this suiiject I must tell the Houae the truth regarding what I believe to l>e till- cause of the depletion of that great lake. Mr. Tupper was inspector, and if he had been a paid official of that great American combine he could not have <liini' more to assist in the deetruction nf the lishery of Lake Winnipeg than he did. Every move that was made to check the killing" of fish by the American fish interests was countered by this inspector. He had the ear nf his minister at Ottawa nri account of his oilicial position and he apparently had the ear of the officers in tliH def>artment and e\ery move that was niu<ie to check this .\merican fish interest was countered by this man and by the in- llucnces that surrounded him. I .egret, Mr. Speaker, to have to say that representation after representation was made to the De,.artment of Marine and Fisheries pointing out the destruction that ( was goiiiL' on. but it seemed impossible to reacii the ear or obtain the sympathy of the department. Settlers along thav lake who had been induced to settle there large- ly on account of the great fishing industry that was promised had petitioned the gov- ernment time after time praying for protec- tion, but it seemed impossible to get the de- partment to takp any action. That cannof be verv much wondered Ft perhaps when we realize that for year?, on both sides of the .Speaker. .=at s/entlemen who were stockhold- ers and sui'port<>r5 of the American fish in- terests. We had up to a very few years ago members on both sides of this House who were stockholders or agent-s of the American fish interests. Con.=equentIy. you can well undrmtsna how impo».ll.;.. it »m (or th« Uuortor milllont of pounds of flih •nnuijUir provincl.l MitWrt to «w th« r.r ..( th» .le.|t)ie Uk« would ioon^Ki ^*P''"?f _„'j?.j?* iuro w»« brouaht to bflar on th<> pre»<>nt '^•""' ■ ^, •'.^ . . t »f„- sure waft nrouirni lo dphf uii nif wicwt-h* ohf^.n iuMire '^■''' ' '' O^"''" j"''"' "' .^"j I "^^^^ th« thon Inspector 1,1,1.11.1 Ki*lit.ri.v« Uiiiix w.!l "''l"»">»';'l;utourhe Tupper In hU place the (fovem- alonc tho ,hor... of th»t lake an.l b.'nff in ] \;^Xi»vpoM^\\ man (rSm whom every iiHitiL' thr <l.»tructiv.' mo h.),l4 that were ^j^-p Vv. ColcleuRh. an old resident of the priutit.'.l by til.' Aiiicriciin U\U-Te*U und the ^^^^^ ^j Belkirk. a man who had been ennag- (frtnl ili'ttructi.in thiit had taken phuc in p,, j„ ,|,p jj^^ buiineni himself and who our tiiheri.s, I cunic to Ottawa mid took the 1^,,^^^ ,,y,.,y |,„y „„j pyi-ry inlet, on the inuttT iipwith the then minister, Sir Charle* ||,,j,, |„„i fiyory setiler on tt» shores. When Hilibert Tapper. I became intere.ited In the ^j^. 'poip)puph gjiinnied nfflre we expected mutter up with the tlun minitt-r. Sir jj,|,( (|,p .Vmcriciin Fish Company would re- Chiirles Hiliert Tupper. I bernnie in- pp|yp » check, b- ' we failed to reallw the teroHted in lln' iiiattir liirL'clv bi'enii<i' ni p„,^p, of this sreat combine. Within less the fiiet that tlie Aiiiiruuii tisti in- t},„„ two years this mon who tried to do terest*. not miti-ille 1 with I'.mtroUiiiii "or (,jg duty i,y the country and by the settlers li^liirie« and t ikinu' lUli mit <A our was practicnlly forced ciut of office. Every lake to the extent of millions of pounds recommenilation he made to the department illiL-allv, w.n- eiiileavi.urin.' to erush at Ottawa in the way of restrictinB the out of e\iatence the two ^tiiiiill Ciiineli;!!! Ariicricin ri-=liinL' int«r.*H from killini: the eompanie* tliat wer.- tli.-n operatinii on ll*!!. wnn either ignored or side tracked so the lake. This was their modus eperandi: that he fail.'d entirely to muke any im- there was a .lutv u( a quarter cnl a pound provement in the conditions. Mr. Colcleugh .in all lisli imports, I into tlie I'liitfJ State.H fruiii Canada, but a olaii-^' in the V nited Stat' s I'uitunis Aet provided tliat any tish taken in Canada in mis owii,-.i Ijy Ameri- can eiti/.c'iis would bi' admitt''! into the Unit. (I States free. Tlie li.iuili Ki.-li I'ack- iiiK Company of Chicago, that L'roat octopus which lii.-itrnrd its te itacies un^every tish produciin; sheet of water in Canada, re- ceived tlie advaiita-.'e of tlii.s provision of tlie Tniti'd Stall's enstonis law a-" i! owiii'd the nets mid jilant uf th.' Kobinsm t'om- pany of that time and when the iisli of the two Canadian compiinies got to the biirder line it was nut with the duty and handicapptd to tliat e.xtent in the CliicaL.'o mark. t. In this way til.' An li- eans w.r.' ulile t.i .lictate price* ami tiTiiis til the Canadians Tli.' r.'Siilt was that ill If*'.' tley .succeeded, with their control of tlii' Cliicau'o market in crusliini; the two Canadian companies out of ex st- ence. In that year the Selkirk Fish Co n- panv and the Rei.l and Tait Company so d their business to the Booth Fish Paekii e Company, or as it was called in this coun- try the Dominion Fish Company, but it was Canadian in name only, the stock he- inff almost exclusively owned by the Rooth Fish I'acUiri',' Company of Chicauo. Since that time tlie Booth Fish Packinc Com- pany of Chicairo have practical v controlled the fishini.' in Lake Winnipeu, Rieht under the eves of the officers of the trovernment they have taken from 1.2i1f> to 1.500 tons of fish annually out of this lake, althousrh it was pointed out in 1810 that if they were allowed to cntinne tnkiticr out two an.l a was not only a prominent citizen but he was a prominent Liberal; he had repre- . nteil a Manitoba constituency in the local li'.'islature for many years and the settlers .iloriL' the lake had creat hopes that he woiiM see justice done to them. Now. In nrdi-r to prove that Mr. Colcleush was true t<i the pcMpIe and true to bis trust, and that he saw eye to eye with Mr. Wilmot, who realized that these erent American tish interests were destrovins; Lake Winnt- peu, I shall read some stronsr representa- tions t.i this ffovernment contained In a re- j.ort of Mr. Colcleush made on .January 15, l!>o<» ."Selkiik. .Innuary i:>. IMO. fToii. Sir Louis Dnvles. K.CM.O.. Minister of Marine mid Fisherii-s. Sir,— I havo the honour to report as folloirs on the fislierids iif Manitoba, for the year 1899, and til enilose h'Tewith statistical retuM's for the >aiiie [leriod. [ This season iii the matter of catch anil all [ other respects, may be said to have Ix'eii all 1 iweraue one, some lakes sUowiuK an iiu lease ■ in oiitpat, and others a proportinnate de- crease. • • • • The ti«h companies continue to ninvo their plants northward, and this year their opera- tions were carried on within a short distance of the noitlurii shores of the lake, and I un- ilirstand tliey (uiiteinplate another mnve to Norway House ami I'layerwn I'oiiit on th« northern coast. To my miud this is prima facie evidence of the depletion of these waters, I'ully 90 per cent of the catch of all our lake.i Roes to the United States and tinds a market there at Rooil prices. La-t spring I had a wholesale price list from the Detroit Fish V I AiwcMtioa, vliicb I km told, ia on* of tb« tonUelM of th« irrat Am«rlc>ii octopui, tho Ath combino, and tbii Imt aaotod oar whit*- Aih at S cmU par pound wnolaaala, and our •turgaon at from ( to it cant*, wbila Una droaaad treat takan from aaatarn watart waa ualy qaotad at H cast*. Now, I want to give you the r i>drt« of two of hit officer* on Uiu lakvs: I. Oflear Macnaaion of Arnaa, on tha wa«t- am ahora of Lm» Winnipaf, raporta a aM:r»tii« In thocalch <>f a«b in hia diHtrict, aa eouiparMl with laat laaaon, and aajs that wintar Aabini waa a failarr. He rvporta eloaa aaaaona and otbar raaalatiooa wall obaarTad in bit dia- triot and oloaaa bia raport a« followt;: In mr opinion tba lalie will anraljr ba daplatad of flab in a faw yaara if tba ■ompaniaa ara al- lowad to Bib aa at preaant.' Antjiw McKay, oii« of the oldest men on Lak>! \Viniiii>t'L'. a niuri wlio wa* in the I'mpluy uf th>! lilt' ir.jvrrniniMit (or niuny yeara us Indian u-'iiit iit lloretra river, niakfs tlii!« ri|>'irt: a. Angua McKay, E»q., of Boran'a rirar, lata Indian agant at tba point, baa reaidad tbara tor liver twi'ntv yenr*. and hiii nlwiiyt t.ikiMi a lively intaraat in all niattara pertaining to tba welfare of tba oommunitv, and now writea atating that the lalce in lioiiiK rapidly dppUt.d of both whiteflab and sturgeon, and urges tha goveruinent tn pay hrml to it before it ia too lata. I niay add "that this opinion i» shared by all diaintermted parties who have given thia matter any cousidaration. Mr Cololouyli al^'o makes the followitii,' report to the deputy minister, which with your permirtition 1 will not read, but hand in, as I do not wi.<h to take up the time of the House. After a lengthy report he says: In conclusiou permit me to say that I have given the matter of our fisheries ronMiderable itudy, and consulted hundreds of settlers, and Cple who have no interests, other than tba t interests of the province to serve, and all ara of opinion that lake Winnipeg is being rapidly depleted of both whitefish and stur- geon and tnat even one more season's fishing fuch as last year, and a few preceding years, will be disastrous. In vprifiintion of thii let mo state 'hat tl,!- enly wbitaflsh now left in the lake are within from -•' til -'• miU'- of tin- most noitlipilv parts. Last season over twelve hundred tons were taken under commercial licenses by tho Dominion Fidb Coinpony, most of which were caught within 23 miles of the outlet of the lake. Then it must be borne in mind that all Bib which pass ever Sea Falls never return. The first mentioned fishing was done in the south portion of the lake near to the mouth of Red river, where whitefi?h were very pier 'i- ful, then tbay moved gradually northward to Swampy island. When these grounds wer<> Bshed out, ther then moved to Reindeer island where tliey fisned so lonjj as it was profitable, and then shifted to Qenrge's island, and later to Horse island, the most northerly island in tha lake and all commercial fishing was car- ried on last season between this island and the north shore of tba lake. At tkls ■omant gaaga of man ara angagad buildlBf ie« hoaaaa and making otbar aitaa- aiva prvpn rations on the northern •bore* of the take ia tba vicinity of Warren's landing, and l'la.vi(ri»ii liik», ptriiHriitiiry '» o|M>ration* tbara tbia wintar and next summar, and aa I Mid bafora, if fishing is permitted for anotbar year on laeb a seafa, it will prova a aarioaa matter to tba paopU of tbii provtnea. These reports prove conclusivi'ly that Mr. ColeleuL'h saw eye to eye with Mr. Wllmot, iitiij did all that any man could do to tftva the tisheries u( Lake Winnipeg, but the u(- lieials of the ilepartnielit and I fear the minister himself l''nt a deaf ear to hit re* porta and reciinimendations; and after stru^i,''lin;< (or two year* with the depart- rni'iit to si-cure justice (or the settli-rs of Lake Winnipeg, he gave up the flght in di.'ti.'ust. and resigned. The poslMon waa then tiUi'd )>y a man taken out of a hard- wan- store ill the town of Selkirk, a man who knew no mure about fish than the aver- aiii' nii'mlitT of this House know* about watelimukin^' I have no hesitation in say- ini; that it was iin the recommcndatinn o( the head of the hsh combine in Selkirk, the president of the Dominion Kiah (."om- |iany. Captain William Kobertion, that .Mr Youiii; wu.s appointed to that position. While a very estimable man, Mr. Younir i at tliat tinii- waa thoroughly ignorant of till- tisheries. It is a very grave question wln'tliiT 111- kni'w a whiti'llsh (rum a tiillibee, or a tulliliiM' from a pieki rel ; but he was just the kind o( a man who suited the LTcat American tlsh interest. .\» he knew nothing about the fisheries, he could not .see where these great companies were des- troying the fisheries of Lake Winnipeg. Coming in right on the heel« o( Mr. Col- eleiich, a man who had years o( experi- ence in the fisherie.si, and who had resided at the headcpiartiTs o( the fisheries at Sel- kirk, ever sinoe they were started. Mr. Young made a report, and I wish to nuote ; passage of it to give you an idea of the position he took in this matter. His re- port to the nonunion Commission o( Fish- eries, Ottawa, is dated Selkirk, March 18, Ifl02, and in it he says: Aa waa foreshadowed in tho preliminary statement published in last year's report, tha returns show an increase in the iiiinntity of fish caught and exported over the year IWH). Whitefish h?-. been very plentiful, so much so that some of tt.e companies got all the fish reqnirad in about six weeks or two months fishing. 1 1 m pleased to report a yield of 1,364,000 pounds over the preceding year's, which goes to show that wa have still an abun- dance of whiteti'ili ill nur waters at any rat«; 1 rill sav -o with regard to the waters of Lake Winnipeg. 1 just want to point out how easily a man may be misled. I do not believe that Mr. Young realized, when he made that re- port, how misleading it would be to the de- iiurtiiioMt, He states that there is abund- ance of iish in the lake in the very season when tlie companies had nearly doubled their plants, doubled the number of boats in use, more than doubled the number of men employed, and consequently more tJian doubled the power to kill the fish and chase them into the deep waters. These things account for the apparent abundance of fish, and Mr. Young does not take them into account in making his report. It merely shows how well this large trust had forti- fied itself. Reading the report of Mr. Young, the average man would suppoee that Lake Winnipeg fishery was in a flourishing condition, that there was really no danger of its waters being depleted, while the facts prove that the lake to-day is depleted from the south end to the north end. One proof of this is to be found in the fact that in the early days the average whitefish t"ken out of Lake Winnipeg was from four and a half to five pounds weight, whereas the average taken last year by the American iish companies was less than two pounds weight. According to the law and the repu- la*i(ins of the department, no fish of less than two pounds weight is to be taken out of Lake Winnipeg; but I make the state- ment here that the average fish taken by the American fi.shing companies last year was "ot over two pounds, so that there must have bfon a lnr;:e nuniuer under two pounds to make that average. In the season of 1907 the catch was verv loor, and the inspector, reporting under <lii ,> ui Selkirk, June 1, 1908. speaks of it ir. the following .an- guapp: It will be noto<i fh.it there is a large falling oB in the production of wUitcfisli, while the apparatus used was practically the Baine as that used the previous year. In the first place the season was a month later than usual in opening up, it being about the Ist of July lie- fore any fish were taken. Throughout the pummer season the weather conditions were very unfavourable for successful operations of the fisheries, which created a Bhortage in the catch. My observations lead me to Ijolieve that the shortage was entirely due to the above cause, and not from depletion of the fishery. I have no doubt but that when the weather conditions are favourable for success- ful operations the fishery will reileem itself. That report coming from the Inspector of Fisheries in the face of the fact that the average size of the fish had fallen from 4J and 5j to 2 pounds, is conclusive evidence that the officials of the Fisheries Depart- ment have not been as zealous as they mi'.'ht have been in the protection of this groat fishery, and not willing to admit that the lake is depleted greatly. A few years ago, when wo who took an interest in this question and were trying to con- vince the Department of Fisheries from time to time that this lake was being de- pleted, and made statements to that effect to any of the officials in charge, we were met almost invariably with the rei^ly that we were endeavouring to kill a great industry. The idea that this fishery belonged to Uie people of Canada and ought to be protected for our own settlers and our own people never seemed to enter the minds of these officials. Their whole aim seemed to be to do everything possible to encourage these great commercial companies to export our fish to the American market. The idea never seemed to suggest itself to them that this fishery ought to be protected and kept for the people of our western country. I want to be as brief as possible, but I desire tj put this matter on record in such a manner that the minister and this House will understand so; lething about the condi- tions which have prevailed on Lake Winni- pes during the last fifteen cr eighteen years; and to do so, it will be necessary for me to give a short resume of the operations of these commercial interests since their es- tablishment. As I have said this lake was depicted right ur.dor liie eyes of the depart- mental officer?, .^ny one. having as much experience as I have had on this question, would a' iiost think that these men had been hypnotized by these crcat interests and were consequently unable to realize what was actually taking place. In 1881, Messrs. Reid and Clark, two fishermen from Col- liiigwood, started to fish in the extreme southern part of the lake, right opposite Big island. At that time that part of the lake abounde<l in fish. Its waters were teemiiiL' with magnificent specimens cf whitelish, by long odds the best ever taken irom any waters on tliis continent. Right alongside where thev were fishing was a settlement of some 3.000 Icelanders that sealed there early in the seventites. These Iclanders expected that they would be allowed to carry on a great industry and reap the reward which would have been theirs had these commercial interests not been allowed to come in and practically steal what really belonged to our own people. This great settlemeiit had no diflR- eulty up to 18'H) in ohtaininL' all the iish they required in the southtern part of the lake, not only for their own use but for the Manitoba market, which was not then very laree. In 1882. Reid and Clark moved their plant a little farther north to Bull Head, still in the south end, and caught an abun- dance of fish there. In 1885 they put on the first steam tuc that was ever used in these waters and put up 150 tons of fish. This wat the commencement of the export trade of whitefish from Manitoba to the United States. Soon the wealth of this lake be- came known and in 1886 the Manitoba Fish Company— Canadian in name only — 96 per cent of its stock beine held by Americans — began ojierations on Lake Winnipeg and built a large plant at Swampy island. Rein- deer island, and the Little Saskatchewan. In 1887, the Booth Fishing Packing Company of Chicago, that (freat vampire which has sucked the heart's blood out of our fishery, came into oparation under the name of Wm. Robinson. This gave thj lake over entirely to these American interests, but in 1889 the Selkirk Fish Company, a purely Canadian company, started operations and estab- lished their plant in the north end of the lake at what is called Selkirk or Horse island. In 1892 Reid & Clark started oper- ations al«o on Horse island. In 1894 we find that all these other companies which had been fishing in the south end of the lake, off Swampy island and Reindeer, had depleted these waters and moved to the north end and were fishing off Horse island. In a few years they took from that sheet of water surrounding Horse island and Big Saskatchewan from 1,600 to 1,800 tons of whitefish annually, 90 per cent of whioJi were exported to Am- erican markef«. In 1896 the Booth Packing Company of Chicago secured absolute con- trol of the lake and have controlled it ever since. There is one point I want to bring to the attention of the minister, and that is that, under the laws of Canada, this great ..merican combine had no status in our waters. They had no right to fish in Cana- dian waters, but they succeeded in evading the laws by forming what thoy called the Dominion Fi.sh Company. Everv official, however, in the Marine Department, as well - the inspector at Selkirk, knew that the Uootli Fish Packing Company of Chicago were the real owners of the plant at Lake \yinnipeg. In face of the law which states distinctly that every company or individual, before it can sponre a commercial license to j iish in Lake Winnipeg, must be composed ! of British subjects and be the actual j ownor* of tlie plant, these men were en- aliled throuuh their acrents. to tnke the oath and spcure a license which made it possilile for them to destroy the t'reatest inland fishery this country had. or ever will have. Yoni would suppose. Mr. Speak- er, that this fact would have caused an inve.stisration by the Fishery Department yi fir? nso. There i*" no nuestion but that the Commissioner of Fi.sheries knew it a? well as I did, because the attention of the department was drawn to if from time to time. But the department seems to be powerless to interfere to y)ro- tect our settlers against the encroachment of American poachers. After depleting 1 Lake Winnipeg from the south end clean up j to the north end, from Big island. Swampv island. Reindeer iBland, and moving out to | Horse island in the north, we find them | at the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg | six or seven years ago, and they have been i fishing there oontinually ever since, so that 1 that part of Lake Winnipe? is very near de- | pletion at the present time. When I made I the statement a moment aco that the fish 1 taken out of that part of Lake Winnipeg last year did not average more than two poundi weight, it will be clear to every man of this House what the condition of the fishery is at the present time in that lake must be. When Mr. Wilmot made his report in 1900 he pointed out that certain parts of the lake should be protected, and he furnished a map to the department, which is contain- ed in his report which I hold under my hand, setting aside certain waters in which he thought no commercial fishing should be allowed. This 1 believe was observed fair- ly well up to within a year or two ago. But a year or two ago we find that commer- cial fish interests, after the season had closed on Lake Winnipeg, operating in waters known as the Playgreen lake, and that part of Lake Winnipeg— because it is really a part of the lake— was pruected ac- cording to the map that Mr. Wilmot had furnished to the department. Now this was not done unknown to the department, it was thoroughly aware that the com- panies were fishing in Playgreen lake, their attention was drawn to the fact but no effort was made to stop them. I want to point out that during the last 15 .years, under both political regimes, the Fishery Department has not given to the settlers on Lake Winnipeg the protection they had a right to expect for that great industry, or an industry which was former- ly great. When I state that Lake Winnipeg is depleted to-day, it is a statement I have made from time to time during the last three or four years, not from hearsay, not from what I have read in the newspai)ers, but from what I know. I have been ac- quainte<l with Lake Winnipeg on and off for 26 and 27 years, and 1 want to ?av that dur- ing that time I have never' had the value of a five cent piece invested in the fisheries on that lake So my action here to-night does not arise from any pecuniary interest, but altoeethcr on account of the public interest. Tlie fact remains that our fisheries have been depleted by the com- mercial companies. But, Sir, it will he hard to get one of the officials, either at Selkirk, where vou have an inspector, or in the department here, to admit that Lake Winnipeg is depleted. They will toll you that Lake Winnipeg is not depleted. We have the inspector stat- ins in miT that he did not believe Lake \Vinnipeg was depleted, and that in the face of the fact that tliesi' commercial interests have moved from station to station, year af- ter year. diiritiL' the last 18 years, until now they have established themselves on the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg. If their former haunts have not been deplet- ed, why have thev travelled 270 miles to get fish elsewhere. They have gone this great distance simply because they have taken out all the fish in the lower part of the lake. 10 Surely it ia time now that something should ho done, that some drastic measure should bo taken to protect this fishery. It is high time that this farce which has been going on should end and that we know the truth rpRardinc the lake. We have men at the present time investigating that matter. They compose the second commission that lias been appointed ti> invpstgate the flsh- irirM in Lake Winnipeg. Just here let mo give the minister a little history of the first commission, which may save him perhaps from some little decc- tion that may be practised through the I. resent commission. In 1894 I made a report to Sir Charles Hibbert Tapper that American companies fishing in tho.so wat- ers which were allowed to use 20,000 .var.ls of nets, that they were fishing double that amount and were destroy- ini: the lake fisheries, and that the waters of the lake were being polluted by dead fish. My statement was com- batteil by the then inspector. Latouche Tupper, who, as I said l)efor.., was in hearty sympathy apparently with the .American interests. Thi' coiiseiiuence was that I induced Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper to grant a commission, and he u[)pointed ;i lawyer in the town of Selkirk, and gave him instructions to go to tlie lake during itho winter time an^l take the evidence I'roni all the fishermen that were engaged ill this great tisli comiiany. This lawyer went on and made a report, which I think is in the department, in fact, 1 have seen it within the last three or four weeks. It is composed of a couple of liundr^'d sheets of foolscap typewritten, fcvery man that was e.\amined iiroved conclusively every statement and every charge that had been made regarding the manner in which the American fish interests were operating on that lake. Now, what liapiM'ned!- In tlie spring of the year when tlnse poor men came off the lake, men wlio liad l)een robbed of a great industry, men who had to work or starve, when they came in to olitairi eniiiloyiiient froni the great Ameri- can combine, thoy were met at t.iio door of the oflici; by one of the men who had a copy of the re|)ort of this commission in his hand, and he would say to these men: Mohn. vou swore so and so to Mr. Elliott; you cannot work any longer for the lish oniiiaiiy if you talk like that; you made u mistake.' Consequently he look Uiat man upstairs and made liiin swear just the reverse. Ninety per cent of these men were made to contradict tli( ir former evi- dence. I pre.sume tliat reiiorl is in the de- partment here, and was tile.l to eountract the effect of the other report. I make this statement here to-n' ht so that it may help the minister to be on his guard in resrard t 1 the inV''5tic;atio:i that ;- lu'.v goin'.' on in Manitoba, and so that he may take mea- sures to make it a fair and impartial one. I was reading some of the evidAice that waa taken at Winnipeg, and I want to draw the miniater'a attention to it. I do not know what power this commission has, but I notice that every man who is examined in Winnipeg, and I think also in Selkirk, were all of them either owners of or stock- holders in these fish companies, or men directly interested in the large fishing combine. There waa not one man who had the interests of the public at heart, that is, the interest of the settlers, who was ex- amined in either of these cities, and this is a very important fact. Some of tlie evi- dence given by Mr. Guest I have under ray hand; he is a fish dealer in Winnipeg, a member of what is called the Northern Fish Company. He states that the North- ern Fish Company ia purely Canadian. Well, I am sure the minister knows and the department knows that a majority of the stock of the Northern Fish Company belongs to what is called the Ruck Eye Fish Company, and the Buck Eye Company is controlled by the Booth Fshing Pack- ing Company of Chicago. Consequently, the Booth Company controls the Northern I'ish Company just as much as it does the Dominion Fish Company on tliat lake. But that man swears before this commission that that company is purely a Canadian company. Now, Sir, evidence of that kind should be a warning to the minister, and I hope his c. mmissioiiers who are taking this evidence on Lake Manitoba will be in a position to cross-examine these men. I do not suppose that the paper gives all the evidence, but I do not notice, in reading the whiile nf t!ie evidence then given that there has been any cross-e.xamining done. Men have been allowed to come forward, simply make their statements and walk out of the" room. If that is the class of evidene ■ that the commission is going to secure I want to say to the minister that ho will lie very much disap|Kiinied with the result. I believe that the iiresent Minister of Mar-iie is anxious to do what he can to prot'.ot the fisheries. I have that feeling and I hope I will not be disappointed. There are one or two other items that I want to cull the minister's attention to. First, 1 want to say a word as to the stur- L-eon fishery. This, at one time, was a pro- fitable industry on Lake Winnipeg, l)ut the same interests, the American fish interests, laine in and depleted that fishery. We find tliat while tliev were able to set from 600,000 to 80n,000 pounds of sturgecm in a year and were able to do it year after year the best they could do last year was to se- cure ITO.OtW pounds. This proves conclus- ively that the tish is almost extinct on that lake. This is a serious question for our u , Indians upon that lake. We have a large number of Indians along that lake and the depletion of our fisheries, in addition to being an outrage upon the people of those great provinces of tlie west, is a great hard- ship to the poor Indian who has to travel miles and miles to get enough fish to feed himself and his family. In the old days an Indian could set his net any place along the lake and get any fish he wanted. To- day, he cannot do that. These waters are depleted to such an extent that he cannot put up the fish that he used to put up for his winter's supply The sturgeon was a very valuable (ish. We, in Manitoba, never realized the value of this fish. The Ameri- ciin.s came into our waters, however, and they have made a great deal of money out of sturgeon. The Indian or settler who caught this sturgeon, received, as a rule, 75 cents or $1 at the most for a stureeon weighing from 75 to 125 pounds. These fish were taken to Chicago and sold from 9 to 14 cents a pound. The caviare that was got from Iho product of these sturgeon was a very valuable product in addition Consequently, the Americans have reaped a very great harvest out of our great in- land waters. It does seem strange to me that the Canadian government have been almost powerless to protect our watc^rs from the American fishermen. I could well understand the difliculty along the interna- tional waterways, but there should surely be no difliculty in great lakes lik.' Lake Winnipc:,', Lake Winiiipcgosis and Lake Manitoba. They are in the heart of our own country and we surely should be able to kii'p the Americans from coming in and ! taking the fish from under our no,«e. We have, during the last 15 or 18 years, ' been simply hewers of wood and drawers : of water to tlie great American interests. The settler who camn into that country in the early day.s and who ought to be wealthy io-day, as a result of the existence of these ' great lialierie.-, is struggling for a living while these American trusts have been allowed to make hundreds of thou.sands of dollar.-* out of the fishing industry. ! I wuuM just like to say a word or two ' liere regarding the province of Saskatclie- wan. We have no great lakes there, but we j have a lot of small ons. These lakes are be- i ing rapidly depleted. I know this is not the j report that the minister gets. I have read ! the report.s that have come in from his in- ' specturs, but, 1 would refer the minister ' to the evidence given at Selkirk by one Mr. , ■loliii Morrison. He swore that he had j lished at Turtle lake, which is a small lake ' in Saskatchev an. atul that he had taken j out ten carloads of whitefish last winter. ■ Hdw long do ynu think tliat lake can stand ' that class of Ijshiiig? The iiievitablii re- ! suit of eomiMPri'iu! lishinL- in these small 'akes is that they will b> depleted within | a short time. I enter a plea to-night for the settlers of that great province. Those people who are going in there in thousands and, I hope, by hundreds of thousands, wUl re- quire all tlie fish that these small lakes will yield. That is the fresh fish supply for that province as Lake Winnipeg was to Manitoba and her sister provinces. I think we have a right to ask the government to protect these fisheries and see to it that the fish are kept not only for the resi- dents but for the coming residents of tliese great provinces. This is an industry which gives employment to perhaps 5() or 60 men during the winter time. They receive a very small sum for the fish they take, just enough to pay for their labour and nothing for the fish. They get their wages and that is all they get while the American Fish Company get the fish. Our people who want hsh in Manitoba to-uuy are paying nearly double what they ought to pay for fresh lisli. This is true of Winnipeg and other towns throughout that province. When I tell you that fresh fish in Winni- peg commands the same price, or just about the same price, as the same fish in Chicago and other American cities you can understand how great a hardship it is to the people of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. With regard to the Sturgeon question I omitted to refer to Lac du Bonnet, a small lake on the Winnipeg river. It is really an e.xteiisioii of the Winnipeg river about 9 miles long and having an average width of ■2 or 3 miles. It is a great sturgeon breed- ing ground. That ground has been pro- tected and I notice by the report of your ollicer-the one thing that I have noticed from the rei)ort of any olhcial of the de- [lartment regarding the fisheries of that country that meets with my approval -was a statement coiiiniending the policy of pro- tecting that little lake Lac du Honmt, pointing out that it was teomiiig with sturgeon that it was a reservoir or brew- ing ground and ought to be protected. I know there is a very strong effort beiii,; made -and I know the minister knows— to secure a license to fish that lake I trust that the minister will carry out the policy that iio has inaugurated and not allow any commercial companies or even any set- tlers to fish tliat lake for export purposes. I strongly urge the minister— and I believe that wliat 1 say now will be very popular in the province of Manitoba— to prohibit the export of sturgeon from Canada. Stur- i:con are very scarce and sliould not be exported from Canaila. A sliort season might \>v allowed duriii_'' which the set- tlers living along the lake might be allowed to take sturgeon for tlie home ni.-irket only. \i\ important question arises in connec- tion with tiie settlers living along the Red river. There are along that river a large numlier of old settlers. These m-"!! liave 12 lived there all their livet and have always enjoyed the rifrht to take fish at any time during the year, but under the present law they are not allowed to take fl3h durijiK what is called the close season. Very few fish go up that river and all the fish the aettlers take during the season would not amount to as much as one of those great fish com- panies would take out of Lake Winnipeg in one day. 1 shall cite one case to illus- trate the great hardship sometimes caused by the enforcement of the law. In the spring of 1897 an old woman, about 80 years of age, went down to the river to try and get a fish. Many of these settlers, it must be remembered, are very poor. This old woman had a little scoop-net and was fishine with it alone the shore when one of the zealous inspectors of the department came alon?, saw the old woman trying to take fish during the close season, took the net and broke it across his knee. The old woman said: 'You micht as well take a stone and knock my brains out as leave me to starve.' That is a hard case, hut there are many quite as bad. I wrote the minister a letter upon this subject as fol- lows: January 28, 1909. Hon. L. P. Brodeur, Minister Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa. Honourable Sir,— I be raw your atten- tion to what has provt ' t . ie a vpry great hardship to many of the j.d settler.'! alnnR the bank of the Rod river, that is, the en- forcomout of a closed ^oason for the taking of tish in the Ued river by the settlers who fish only for their own ronsuniption. This has proved to he, as I said alxive a great Hardship, espeeially tt. many of the poorer families — this applies especially to the spring of the year. 1 would tlierefore suggest and urge that you eause the h>w. whirh re^trut'^ the settlers along tne bank of this rivfi , ))etween the Catholic mission, " or 8 mil<\.< north of the town of Selkirk and the northern limits of the city of Winnipeg, to Ije an'.uUed. — that all settlers between these points be allowed to fish at any season for home consumption only. This change cannot have any very bad etfcvt as all the fish taken by the settlers for this purpose does not amount to as much as to what one of these fishing companies would take o«t of the lake nr at the mouth of the Red river in one d.iy, — while on the other ht Td, the change that will enable those poor settlers to catch fish for their own table, as they have been in the habit of doing for fifty yeatS before this law was applied by your de- partnieiit would piove a great blessing to these pe<iple. Trusting that yon will se your way clear to meeting this request, I am. Yours faithfuly. I reM'ivcd a ro-^lv siL'iifd by Mr. VenninL". one of the offlrials of flip department I do not wish tu speak harshly of the officials but I have alwav? felt that the officials of the department did not txtend to the i>oor settlers of that county the sympathy that th«'V should. Mr. Venning says : The minister directs me to ackDOwledgv the receipt of your Utter of the 26tb ultimo, re- S nesting that so far as that portion of U>« ed river beween Catholic mission and the north limits of the city of Winnipeg is con- cerned, the fishery regulations be so arranged as to allow the settlers at all tiroes of the year to take fish for their own utie, and I note your opinion that the amount taken would be so small as to have no ill effect on the permanence of the fishery. • In reply I may say that the fishery regu- lations are framed with a view to imposing the least possible restrictions on the fishermen compatible with the permanence of the fishery and the experience of the department is to make it very loath to countenance any fishing whatever for a particular kind of fish during the close season provided for its reproduction. While the department would regret very much to have to cause hardship to any of the settlers it fails to see why it would not be possible for such settlers to be able to provide themselves with sufficient fish for their own use under the ordinary domestic licvnse, the fee on which is only $2, dnring the regular fishing season. This letter conies from one of the offiwais of tliH department and shows how little symiiathy they have with the hardships tliat prevail along that river. These people enjoyed the riirht to take these fish long liefore we as Canadians had any right to a foothold in that country, and it seems a preat hardship that we should go in there and allow our great corporations to kill fish liv hundreds and millions of pounds and ship th.m out of the country and at the same time deny to those potjr people the ri'-'li' t(i catch enouali tish to keep body and sou! together. So I enter a plea with the minister and ask him to see that this privikce is pranted to these settlers from this date on. It must he remembered that these men do not sell the fish, what they take are simply for their own use, and sure- ly they should be allowed to catch enough for their own consumption. T!i«' question of fish culture is one of creat imjiortance to the settlers along that I.-ike and deserves careful attention. It is •in industry requirinc very skilful manage- ment but ' regret to say that the hatcher- ies in M ''a have been conducted care- lessly, tlessly and inefficiently. I Iwlieve u._ ..nen the minister realizes what his really taken place along the southern end of the lake he will endeavour to repair the f-'reat wronc that has been done to our settlers. I believe that the depleted fish- eries can be repaired to a great e.\tent through the use of hatcheries properly man- ned and managed, although little can be aeeomplished with hatcheries conducted as those in Manitoba now are. A hatchery was built at Selkirk many years ago, un- der the late t'overnment more as an ex- periment than anything else. We have in 13 I charge of that hatchery a man who knew nothing about fish culture, who had driven a dray in Selkirk (or 20 years. He was taken from that position and put in charge of the flsh hatchery, and yet the department expects good results from a hatchery of that kind, managed by a man who knows practically nothing about fish culture. What happened? Two years ago, although the government had spent over $10,000 in tryins to secure spawn In Lake Winnipeg their efforts were abortive simply because the man in charge did not know his busi- ness, and did not understand the taking of spawn. The hatcheries at Selkirk and at Lake Winnipeg were closed. A consign- ment of spawn was sent from Ontario to kocp the hatchery going, but when it reach- i\l Selkirk, through the ignorance of the man in charge, the spawn was allowed to .ipoil and the hatchery was again clused. Even when it is successful as it was this year, the management is imperfect. At Sel- kirk, when the young fry are ready and must CD into the water, the water is unfit f,>r them. The Red river is clear of ioc tlirt'i> weeks before Lake Winnipeg; the temperature of the river rises rapidly and the fry have to be deposited, and when they are di-cliurgej the water of Red river is extremely muddy. It is safe to say that not ten per cent of the tish from the hatchery ever live to reach Lake Winnipeg. Everybody knows this, the department knows it. To-night from my place in this House I put in a plea that the hatchery be removed to where it will do ."Jome good. I sii.'gcst that it be pl.iceil on Big island or some other point on the south end of Lake Winnipeg, and if tluit be done it will to some extent help t-i remedy the great wrong perpetrated, and to replenish the waters in the south end of the lake. There is no question that if there was a batclicry placed on Mig island or some- where on the south end of the lake that »-tthin the next four or five years we would have abundance of fish there, for the .set- tlers at least. Two or three years ago we spent .$'J4,00<) in building a hatcliery at Beirns river and although Mr. .Jackson, the late member for the county promised the settlirs at the .south end that the hatchery would be built on Big islaml, the influence of the LTeat fi.sh companies was too stronij and they bad it locatecl on the north end of the lake so as to help to produce fish to keeji that .\nierican combine supplied. What I set out to say was that that hatch- ery lay idle all last year, because, throuiih tlie buni-'ling of the men employed to look after this delicate business of fish culture, no spawn was .secured. Not one of these men in charge of the hatcheries has lind any experience. The inspector of hatcheries at Selkirk is a very fine fellow himself, but ho is a lumberman who attends to his lum- ber business in Selkirk, and he knows no more about fish culture than I do about making a watch. That is the kind of men that is placed in charge of the flsh culture of the province of Manitoba, and is it any wonder we have had such results? The man in charge of the hatchery at Beren's river was a friend of the late member, Mr. Jackson, and he was taken off the farm to be put in charge there. II we are to succeed in replenishing that lake with fish, if we are to get any value for the thousands of dollars we have spent, it is absolutely necessary that competent men should be put in charge. I trust that the report of the commission will be a comprehensive one, and that it will enable the rain'ster to judge of these matters himself and not be dependent upon his officials. Now, Sir, I have endeavoured to place this matter as fairly as possible before the House. There is no politics in it or there ought to be none, but unfortunately at times politics do get mixed up in it and politics have a good deal to do with the destruction of our lakes. I have tried to place the matter fair- ly before the minister in the hope that I may induce him to grapple with the ques- tion and to remedy the evils that exist. Our Manitoba fisheries are a great natural resource of the province and they ouglit to be well guarded. There are a large number of citizens in my own constituency who de- pend largely for a livelihood on the pursuit of this industry, and the fall and winter fishing on the lake is quite an important enterprise. There is no danger to the fish- eries from winter fishing because every time the ne' is put into the water it is taken ■ lut again with the fish that are in it. but in the case of the summer fishing miles and miles of these nets are often torn away and they go sailing through the lake killing and destroying the fish us they pass along and polluting the waters. I ask the minis- ter to see that the commission which inves- ti'.'ates this ijiiestioii will not be content with taking the mere statements of certain people, but that they will have power to su()i)a?na witnesses and cross-examine them so that a true knowledije of the conditions on Lake Winnipeg may be obtained and an aile'iuate remedy applied. Niov, in cdiuliision, allow me to again press upon the minister the absolu! ' neces- sity of (>rectintr at oiue an up-to-date hatch- ery 'Ml Biir islaiul. This end of the lake has hen thorouirhly depleted of whitefi.sh fi^r eciinniercial jmrposes. and as it is the portion of the lake where the large lee- lamlie settlement reside, it ought to be re- plenislieil at the earli<'st possilile date. That tlie lake has been depletivl is evi- iloncecl from the fact that the companies are to-day paying 3} cents per pound for v.hitefish that they used to pay about one- ilM.irter ef one cent jier jiound for. .\ great wrong has been done to our settlers and to our residents, not only of Manitoba and ef all the Eastern provinces, where our 14 magnificent whiteflgh ought to come but on account of the manipulation of our fish- ery by American interests. Canadians have to pay double or nearly so for their own fish than they ought to. I therefore strongly urge upon the .government the wisdom of nil up-to-date system of hatch- eries on the lake, especially in the south end. placed under the management of ex- perts in fish culture, and a thoroughly t unadian policy, from this date, regarding the companies that are iillowed to fish. As far ns possible, the fishing ought to be hus- biinded for our sotflers ; their fall and winter flshinc oueht to bo preserved, and every encouriieement ouirht to be given to tlii.s kind of fisbinsj. Tiiisd.'iy. May 18. I!xm. Mr. O, H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). Mr. Speaki r, Ik fore the House goes into Sup- ply. I wish to call the attention of the hen. Minister of Mnrine and Fisheries (Mr. Brodeur) to an editorial in one of the Win- pipeu- jiapers on the statement he made in the House in reply to some remarks I had the lionour to make in this House on the I-'itli i.f the month. 1 stated at that time that f.ake Winnipeg was being dejileted. The niini.iter, in reply, said that th. re- j.ort.s sliowe.l fhnt Lake Wiiiiiipe?: was not beint' depleted. I am going to (luute just a f"w s.ntt'nces from the Winnipeg •Trib- une ' of the !4th instant. Thifi is u pajier that has been in touch with this question durin:.' tlie !a?t lifteeii or -ix:een vears ani is fhdroiiL'hly competent to speak upon tlie subjeet : i DEPLETION OF FISHEKIE.S. Hon. Mr. Br^^deur «ni<l the rejiorts showed that there was no depletion of the fisheries of Manitoba. At the moment when he spoke those ish words, witnesses were giving evidence Mioio his own fisheries commission at Gimle, the headquarters for many of the fishermen on the lake. The report says:— The majoritv were in favour of the lake being closed for whitefish in the southern portion until the fish increased sufficiently in numbers to make it profitable and that the closed season for domestic fishing licenses should commence on August 15 for summer fishing. A few years ago in the southern portion of the lake, the waters fairly teemed with white- fish; fishery stations were in nr^ration, and remained in operation until thr devastation was almost complete. Then they were closed. And yet the Minister of Fisheries stands up in parliament and says: The reports showed' that there was no de- pletion of the fisheries of Manitoba. Take further testimony given before the fishery commission yesterday: Rev. J. P. Solmundson, secretary of the flsiierman s union, wac the last speaker. He claimed that United States capital was the direct causa of the depletion of the whitefish in Lake WinnipH- and while he was in favour of fishermen being allowed longer neta and ( iuiiHlian-hiiniired firms doing businens in the northern part of the lake where whiteHsh were itill qaite plentifal. he objected ttronglv iLn,f„V'°tfc """fl' 1'"*S»" Canadian namei •eonring the product for the American market. The fact ii that the American capitalists have m the majority of instances, been in league with friends of the government. The old, rotten system of placing the country's resources at the disposal of friends, is at the Dottom of the depletion of Lake Winnipeg and other western inland waters. Friends, aa they are called of the government have 1 Jt "e™«M0UB rake-o« in this business, and the protests of the whole people have been iguored. Tliis is from the 'Tribune' of May 14 the I niurning after I had the honour of address- mi: this Hdiise. Now, for the purpose of convinciii!.'. if posible, the hon. minister that Lake WiiinipeL' is in a depleted condi- tion, I wisli til read from another important report, made by u man who is entirely im- partial, taken from the report of the Royal Northwest Mounted Pidiee for 1907. This is an extraet from the report of Inspector E. A. Pelletier. of a patrol from Reeina to Churchill and return, in the winter of l!HJ6-7. It is as follows: Ueginn. March 11, 1907. With regard to fishing companies;— T take the liberty of suggesting that bv what I heard and what I believe some restric- tions shduld bo made in the extent of their operations. Th.' fish e.iught. I hear, is mostly all ex- ported to the United States market, and it is foreseen that sonr there will be hardly fish emnigb left to feed the natives and their dogs. If some low could be passed to forbid the exportation of fish caught in the Kee- watin district, outside of Canada, it would benefit the .-ountry a great deal, for at this rate the fish will soon become extinct or j practically so. Something like it is in Lake i Superior. Lake of Woods, and is getting ia I regard to Lake Winnipeg, which is getting I fished out. i Fishing companies are operating as far as ; Lake Tipiwesh. The new railway coming in from the Pass will come through a country of g, 1(1 fishing lakes. Fisiiir, companies find it even profitable to haul fish some 100 or 150 miles from railway transportation with horses. One can easily iinagiiie if a railway ever comes through to Fort Churchill to what extent the country will he exploited by these fishing companies, and as these lakes are of comparatively small sise it tt_ill take very few years indeed to drain them of all their fish, and then the natives will be left starving if a poor year of fish comes. As It IS now, they can always fall back on fish after everything else fails. Even then this country is growing now at such a rate that if no restrictions on the ex- port of fish are made at an early date there will be no fish left for our own consumption. Evidence of this kind, coming from a man ( 'A 1 r r IS * f V I who is entirely impartial, who has no otlier interest to serve than the public interest, ought to impress the minister that there is something wrong. The hon. gentleman seemed to take exception to the statement I miide regarding- the laxity of the officials of his department. Mr. 8I'P:AKER. The hon. gentleman can- not refer to a previous debate. Mr. BRADBURY. 1 am very sorry I can- not. However, there seems to be some dif- ference between the hon. minister and my- self regarding the position these gentlemen occupy. Either the officials of the department have been derelict in their duties regarding the fisheries of Luke Winnipeg or the min- ister of the department has counteracted their reeonwnencliitions. If the olliciala have been honest, and have notified the govern- ment from time to time of the fact-' then the covernment tiiiist take the full fi spon- sibility for the destruction nf these (.Teat fisheries. There is no question that Lake Winnipeg is in u depleted condition to-day. The hon. minister quoted from the report of one of his olliciuls. who, as I pointed out, has from time to time made reports which were contrailictory and therefore not reli- able. However, I am going to read for the minister's information an extract from the report of 1906 of the inspector at Selkirk, the gentleman whom the hon. minister quoted the other night. Some hon. MEMBERS. Order. Mr. BRADBURY. I do not like to irri- tate the hon. fjentleman. but I wish to place this report on record, in the hope that it may open the eyes of the hon. minister to the fact that reiwrts made by the ins[)eetor at Selkirk are not altogether reliable. In this report for 1906, the inspector states : I would JQst say in conclusion, that the year 1901 has Ijeen, ou the whole, a very success- ful one, considering that the weather througli- out th« year, was very unfavourable, for the carrying on of fishing operations. In some cases nets were set from four days to a week without being lifted and fish taken therefrom. This of cour.se hi\d a very b.id effect on the fishing as a good many of the fish deterior- ated before the nets could he lifted and in • (iii^pqupiire were unfit (or the market. It is a hard proposition to overcome this loss as long af gill n«tt are used for the capturing uf tish in our waterH. I'i«h of all kinds are very plentiful except iturceon and whitefiib, both thea* valuable fish Keeni to be getting scarcer every year. The setting anart as a breeding ground the waters of the Winnipeg river was a move in the right direction, and will be u benefit to the fiHheries of our province as long as it it Wept closed to commercial fishing. The waters <>f the Winnipeg river are teeming with young sturgeon. The common whitefish in our waters seem to be getting scarcer e\ery veur at any rate they are harder to locate during the fishinu season than they wore a few years ago. I wish to draw the attention of the min- ister and employee to the fact that his own inspector as lute as 1906 pointed 1 out that Lake Winnipeg was in a de- '< pleted condition and that the fish were getting scarcer every year. 1 do not in- tend to take up the time of the House fur- ther than to say that I hope the minister will be cuided by the reports which I have tried to lay before him. honestly and fairly, without any political bias, and "will see that they are looked into by the Fish Commis- sion. I fear very mucfi that that commis- sion is not going to accomplish the work for which it was appointed, because I have noticed in the refiorts of the papers that one of the nian.iL'ors of the fish companies aiiainst which I have been protesting, is fol- lowing that Commission up from place to place giving his evidence at different places and no doubt influencing the men who come li' fore the Commission. There is no iloulpt that the evidence given before that commis- sion is being secured to a very large extent by this man. All I ask is that the (.eople have a fair chance to put their case before that commission. As I pointed out to the minister this morning in private conversa- tion, unh'ss the witness.s are subpcenaed by the commission, the evidence will not be properly secured from the standpoint of the people. The companies will take good care to have their evidence placed before the commission, but there is no one looking after the interests of the people, and con- sequently I am afraid that if the commis- sion do not sulipcena witnesses and cross- examine tliem direct, the inquiry will not be a fair one. and will not accomplish the result which it was designed to accomplish. \