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Un des symboies suivants apparaitra sur la derniAre image dt cheque microfiche, selon le cas: ie symbols "^ signifie "A SUIVRE ", le symbols V signifie "FIN". Maps, plates, charts, etc., mey be filmed at different reduction retios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent dtre film6s A des taux de reduction diff brents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour dtre reproduit en un seul clich6, il est film6 d partir de I'angle sup^rieur gauche, de gauche A droite, et de haut en has, en prenant le nombre d'images nicesssire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la methods. 1 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 5 6 2.1 Koust of Commons Bttiat^s* THIRD SESSION-SEVENTH PARLIAMENT. SPEECH OF MR. LAURIER, M.P., ON SEPARATE SCHOOLS IN MANITOBA WEDNESDAY, 8tii MARCH, 1893. Mr. LAUKIER. Mr. Speaker, there is a most suggestive lesson in tlie manner in which the Government and their supporters have received the amendment which has been placed in your hands by the hon. mem- ber for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte). They oppose that amendment, and they attacli it, but no reason or no gr^^ '. for their opposition and their attacl^ > be foimd within the four comers of t)ii endment. The ground of their opposition arises from a fact which is ulterior to the motion itself. The whole ground or their opposition is, that the motion moved b^' my hon. friend from L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) rocf ived the support of the hon. mem- ber for North Smcoe (Mr McCarthy). I need not tell the House, for everybody kr.o'vs It, that between the hon. member foii L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) and the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) there is nothing in common, except this one* thing : The hon. member for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) is a courageous man, and the hon. member for Simcoa (Mr. McCJarthy) is a courageous man. The member for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) has convictions and the member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) has convictions, and although their convictions are as wide apart as the antipodes, both have the courage of being true, each one to his own, and it is for tills rea.son that each on this oc- cjision is able from his own stand-point to assail this Government, wliich has neither courage nor convictions. The lion, member for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte), believes that in this matter the Catholic minority of Manitoba ought to be protected in its ancient privilege. The hon. member for Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) bi»]ioves, on the contrary, tliat the legislative independence of Manitoba ought to be main- tained inviolate. This is tlie question which llie Government has to solve, and this Is the question as to which, after three years or more, we have not been able to get an answer from them. That if the rea- son why the hon. member for L'Islet (Mr. Tarte), who holds convictions on the one side, and the member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy), who holds convictions on the other side, are able upon this occasion to arraign this Grovemment for their arrant cowardice. Sir, I say " arrant cowardice," iiiul the expression is not at all too strong. You have heard the defence of the Government and their supporters, you have heard the speeches delivered by the mem- bers of the Government and their support- ers, and if you read them over again, I defy any one to find In any of these speeches a single expression given as to the pol- icy which the Government intend to pur- sue on this question. It may be worth while to review this discussion. The gentle- man who opened tlie debate on the part of the Government was the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. LaRlviere), and it there is a man in this House, coming, as he does, from the province of Manitoba, representing the Catholic minority in that province ; If there is a man who should have an opinion to express upon this occasion, that man is the hon. member for Provencher (Mr. La- Rlviere) whom I regret not to see in his place at this moment. But the hon. gentle- man was neither fish nor flesh, and he spolte only to say that he had nothing to say. Next came in chronological order the Prime Minister, The hon. gentleman cer- tainly made a very able speech, but, Sir, the one Dolnt whicli made the ability of his speech so apparent was, that after having spoken for two hours he was able to escape without having told the Ho\ise what his policy was. The First Minister certainly made a most skUful speech, skilful to the point of disingenuousness. The hon. gentle- man hinted— he did not say— and the hint was talien as authority foq an assertion by , many of liis supporters ; he hinted that the ! motion now before the House was drawn by the hon. member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy). Well, Sir, it is childish, it is almost beneath my diKuitj', to ha\e to n"- peat here that tlie hon. member for North Simooe (Mr. McCarthy) had absolutely nothing to do with the drawing of this amendment. Then, the hon. the First Min- ister, referring to the statement made by ; my hon. fiiend from L'Islet (Mr. Tarto), as to certain negotiations which were supposed ' to have taken place between this Govern- i ment and His Grace tlie Arclibishop of St. I Boniface, said, that the assertion was un- founded that Mr. Chapleau had been in- i structed by this Government, or had been ' empowered by this Government to negotiate with His Grace tlie Archbisliop. Sir, I ami quite ready to admit that Mr. Chapleau j never was empowered by an Instrument under | the Great Seal of this Dominion, duly re- j corded In the Department of State, to nego- tiate with the Aichblshop of St. Boniface ; j but I yet avA'ait the denegatlon that Mr. Chapleau, In the name of his colleagues, had several Interviews with His Grace of St. Boniface, and that every one of these inter- views was reported to the Prime Minister, and, I believe, even to the ^Minister of Justice. I might point out, In the speech of the hon. j Prime Minister, refei'ences to several other j statements of my hon. friend from L'Islet (Mr. Tarte) which were, I will not say, posl- '< tlvely contradicted by him, but which were, | to some extent contradicted— a happy me- dium between negation and affirmation. But I will pass these over, and come to the con- clusion of the hon. gentleman's speech ; and I regret that he is not now in Ms seat, be- cause I could tell him that the concluding portion of his speech was spoken in language calculated to convey a false impression to the minds of the people of this country. The hon. gentleman concluded with some noble words with which I altogether agree. He stated tliat whatever should be the de- cision of the Supreme Court on the questions now referred to tliat tribunal, he was sure that the Government of Manitoba, whether It was in the hands of friends or of foes of the present Administration, would loyall.v submit to that decision. Sir, in that state- ment there was a false Impression conveyed to the people, and the false impression was this, that the decision of this question finally rested with the courts and not with the Gov- ernment. Sir, I am quite sure, indeed, that whatever that decision might be, the Gov- ernment of Manitoba, whether in the hands of friends or of foes, would loyally abide by it. But everybody knows, and the hon. gentieman ought to have said so to the House, that whatever may be the decision of the Supreme Court upon this question, there will be nothing in it for the Govern- ment of Manitoba to submit to. Why, Sir, it is notorious that the question upon which the Supreme Court has now to decide is whether or not the Government have tiie power to interfere with the legislation of Manitoba, Suppose, then, that the Supreme Court decides in the negative ; suppose it decides that this Government has not the power to Interfere with the legislation of Manitoba ? Then, Sir, of course there will be nothing that the Government of Manitoba win be calletl upon to submit to. Suppose, on the other hand, that the decision of the court Is that this Government has power to iutcrtVre with the legislation of Mmiltoba ? 'riitii. still there would l>e uothing that the Government of Manitoba would have to sub- mit to. But then the responsibility would rest with the Government of coming to a de- cision on the question of Interfering or not interfering with the legislation of Manitoba. And so, Sir, 1 say It was a false Impresssion to convey to Uie people of tills coimtry that the decision of tills question v/ould finally rest with the Supreme Court, whereas, In one contingency, it must rest witli this Gov- ernment. Next, we heard from the Soli- citor-General, who made a very long and laboured speech. He attempted to crush the hon. memlier for North Simcoe (Mr. Mc- Carthy) imder the weight of a mass of quotations wlilch might have been very good In themselves, but which. In my estimation, had not the slightest lelevancy to the ques- tion. But whether his quotations were or were not relevant to the question, the hon. gentleman concluded without telling us a word as to what was his own opinion upon the final merits of this question. Then, Sir, we had the hon. Secretary of State. That hon. gentlemsm, who Is an old war-horae, wanned up at the recollection of the battles which he had fought in former times for separate schools in New Brunswick, but he grew cold the moment he came to the ques- tion of separate schools in Manitoba— so cold, indeed, that not a word passed his frozen lips on that question. Then, next in order we had my hon. friend from East Durham (Mr. Craig). My hon. friend looked upon the motion in your hands, Mr. Speaker, most minutely. He examined it most critically, word for word, syllable by syllable ; and, after having examined it from top to bot- tom, from bottom to top, from right to left, and from left to right, he concluded that he could find nothing in it which he could sup- port. The motion blames the Govern- ment for their conduct In tills matter, but the hon. gentieman finds nothing at all to blame the Grovemment for. On the con- trary, he approves everything the Govern- ment have done. He approves especially the reference the Goveimment have now made of this question to the Supreme Court. Then my hon. friend grew a Uttle bolder ; he warned the GrOVemment. jMlnd you, said he, you must not touch the legislation of Manitoba ; you are not to interfere with the legislative Indepecienoe of Manitoba. X I Well, docs not my lion, friend perceive that the moment he comes to that conclusion, he passes the severest condemnation possible upon the conduct of the Government ? Why, Sir, what is the question that is referreti to the Supreme Court ? The hon. gentleman tells us that he approves of that reference. If ho approves the reference to the Supreme Court, does he forget that that reference is to decide whether or not the Government have the power to interfere with the legis- lation of Manitoba ? If, in his opinion, the Government should not interfere wltli the le^slation of Manitoba, why, in the name of common sense, should there be a reference to the Supreme Court at all ? Not only should there not be a reference to tlie Su- preme Court imder such circumstances, but I say that the reference to the Supreme Court tmder such circumstances is most dan- gerous, because, if the Supreme Court should decide that the Government have the power to interfere with the legislation of Manitoba, and the Government should not obey the legal mandate which they themselves had } sought, there would be a powerful and a ; rightful agitation in some parts of the | country against the Government Then, | Sir,' we had my hon. friend from | Bellechasse (Mr. Amyot). Well, Sir, I whatever the faiilts of my hon. friend may be, no one, up to t^iis moment, ever accused him of wanting in pluck. But for the first time in my life I have seen my hon. friend from Bellechasse sadly deficient in pluck to-day. He spoke for two hours and more, but he would not tell, after all, what his opinion was upon the question now at Issue— whether the Catholic minority ought to be protected, or whether the legislative independence of Manitoba ought to be main- tained inviolate. And last, we had my hon. friend from Albert (Mr. Weldon). My hon. friend did not exactly apply himself to the question ; but he gave us a doctrine which, in my estimation, was most extraordinary. Why, Sir, if I imderstood his speech aright, he said this : that we hod all been labouring under a delusion, when we had supposed that the Star Chamber had been abolished by the English Parliament— he told us that there was still a i vestige of the Star Chamber remaining in j the Government of England, and remaining j for the good of the Government and the people at large. Sir, hi the whole conduct of this Government with regard to this question, there has been shifting, most miserable shift- ing, to avoid coming to a decision. The question, after all, is a simple one. In 1890 the Legislature of Manitoba passed a law which the Roman Catholic minority deemed oppVes^ve ; that minority appealed to the Government against that law ; their prayer has to be denied or has to be granted ; this Is the simple issue ; and yet, Sir, one year, two years, three years have elapsed, and dur- ing those three years the Government have never dared yet to come to a decisive action —nay, to express a simple opinion. And, Sir, what is the reason ? The reason is well known. The reason is not new ; it is as old as the constitution itself. The reason is, that upon this occasion, as upon similar occa- sions, there is not in this Government the courage equal to the duty of the hour. The reasou is, tliat upon this occasion, as upon many similar occasions, tiie hon. gentlemen, tliough they are now seventeen in number, do not find in themselves the manhood to deal with a difficult question. The question is a difficult one— I admit that it is surroimded with difficulties— be- cause it Is surrounded with passions, pas- sions religious and national. The hon. gen- tleman from Winnipeg, the other day, stated, and stated truly, tiiat this question is no longer a provincial one. It has passed be- yond the limits of Manitoba ; it has reached Ontario and it has reached Quebec. Already you hear the grumbling voice of Ontario, that the Legislature of Manitoba is not to be interfered with ; and, on the other hand, you hear the threatening voice of Quebec, that the Roman Catiiollc minority is to be pro- tected in all its rights. And between these contending passions of Protestants in Ontario and OathoUcs in Quebec, the Government dare not take action. HositJitlng, halting, vacillating, they are tossed to and fro, afraid to act, afraid even to speak. Catholics, Pro- testants, Quebec, Ontario— Sir, I am not afraid of the passions of CaUiollcs or Pro- testants ; I am not afraid of the passions of Ontario or Quebec, if only the language of reason is spoken and heard. But, Sir, if this Government never speak the voice of reason ; if this Goverament ever fail to appeal to the common sense and the large heart and sound judgment of the people ; if by expedients and makeshifts they allow passion and bit- terness to gi-ow and swell the heart, the day will come when passion will break out In uncontrollable outburst, and when the voice of reason will be as powerless as tf it were addressed to the surging waves of the ocean. Catholics, Protestants, Ontario, Que- bec—these are, alter aU, the di*ead phantoms which have hivherto prevented the Govern- ment from acting. Sir, there is a nobler and higher ground. It may not be possible to solve this question without offending, to a large extent, extreme Protestants or extreme Catholics ; but if the Government had been up to the duty of the hour. If they had striven to screw their course to the sticking point, tiiey would have solved the question loag ago, without shifting or equivocating, and would have then appealed to the strong patriotism and common sense of the people, appealed to all those, whether Protestants or Catholics, who take pride in the name of Canadian, who believe in the harmonious development of Can- ada ; for. Sir, there is the supreme oon- slderation— the supreme Inspiration, Canada- Canada as a whole, Canada, our countiy, Canada— before which all other considerations must yield. Now, x affirm this at the outset Ab I read the Constitution of this country, ns I read the British North America Act and the MonitoLa Act, I say that there is within the provisions of the Constitution, an appeal given to the minority in Ma- nitoba— nay, given to the minority in all the provinces— to this Government whenever they feel oppressed by local legislation in the matter of education. It has been stated that tills doctrine, wlilch I now enunciate, Is not compatible with the doctrine of provincial rights, of which tlie party to which I belong has always been the champion. Sir, I am to-day as firm a be- liever as I ever was in the doctrine of pro- vincial rights. I take as much pride as ever I did in belonghig to the great paity which in the past carried that doctrine to a success- ful issue, an issue, indeed, so successful that we rank among the advocates of tliat dootrine to-day the most prominent of the men who opposed It In the past. And when the historian of the future shall refer to the first twenty years of Confederation, the brightest page he will have to re- oonl will be the page in which he will trace the efforts of the Liberal party to maintain inviolate and intact tlie liberties and inde- pendence of the Local Legislatures. And I am proud to say tliat among the names which shall be revered in the hearts of their coun- trymen, as the names of tliose who stood foremost tn the fight, will be the names of Edward Blake and Oliver Mowat. The prin- ciple for which these men contended was that tills Government has not the power to annul and set aside legislation or interfere with any Aot passed by a Local Legislature within the purview of its o^^'n powers. It is that principle which impelled us to resist, as we did, tlie dismissal of Lieutenant-Governor Letellier for an act which was within the purview of his powers, and which, right or wrong, had been confirmed and approved by the people of the province of Quebec. Tills was the reason which made us resist and condemn the action of this Government, when they recldessly upset the legislation of Ontario in the matter known as the Streams Bill, It was the same principle which made us resist, as we did, the action of this Government, when they actually ruth- lessly set aside the legislation of Manitoba in the matter of railway compotltion. And the crowning triiunph of all, I am sure, was to hear, the other day, the Prime Minister quote with approval from the book of Pro- fessor Bryce on the American Common- wealth, the statement that the wisest pro- vision in the Constitution of the United States was tlie one declaring that the centi*al power had not the right to interfere with state legislation, but tiiat all questions of conflicting powers between the states and the central Government were to be determined by judicial authority. I am sure the First Min- ister must have had in his mind then, and re- gretted with bitter sorrow, the occasions when he interfered with the independence of the Local Legislatures. I agree with the Pilnie Minister in this view, that it would have been wiser for tlie Fathera of Confed- eration to have adopted the American prin- ciple of absolute local independence. But such, after all, is not the priuclple whlcii has been adopted. On the contrary, the prin- ciple of our Constitution is this : that while in all otiier matters the powers of the Local Legislature are almost independent, in the matter of education, a supervisory power h!is been given to this Government, In so far as separate schools are concerned. The hon. member for Albert (Mr. Weldon), to-day, commenting upon section 9."., stated, and stated very truly, that section 93, subsec- tion 3 especially, is most abnormal and ex- traordinary. It has been road more than once, let us read it again : Where in any province a system of separate or dis- sentient schools exist by law at the Union, or is there- after established by the Legislature of a province, an appeal shall lie to the Governor in Council from any act or decision of any provincial authority affecting any right or privilege of Protestant or Roman Catholic minority of the Queen's subjects in relation to education. TWs is, I admit, a most extraordinary pro- vision. Here it is stated that whenever, at the thno of the Union, a system of separate schools exists In any province, an appeal shall be given to the mlniority to the central Government from any action of the Legisla- ture which entitles them to ask redress. Not only that, but it is stated that though there may not be at the time of the Union a system of separate schools, if, after the Union a syi^em of separate schools is established, then an appeal shall lie from the minority to the cenrtipal Government, if the minority feel that they are being oppressed. If the Legislature establishes a system of separate schools, their legislative independence is invioiaite, the Government vriU not have the right to interfere ; but, If afterwards the Legislaiture aittempt to dnterfere with this creature of their own power, immediately their action becomes revisable by tills Gov- ernment, and subject to interference. Now, Sir, it would be well to inquire what was the origin of this sectLon. It is a most puzzling one. No one hitherto in this debate or for many years past, so far as my memoiy goes, has attemptod to inquire and find out what was the origin of this clause. I contend, and I will now endeavour by giving the history of this clause to support my con- tentlkm, that the clause was introduced Into the Confederation Act by Mr. Gait, now Sir A. T. Gait, who at that time was Finance Minister in the Government of Sir John Macdonald, and the representative of the Protestant minority of Quebec in that Government, and that it was introduced tn the Act for the special protection of the PivteStaait miniorlity of Quebec. Sir, I shall endeavour to maJce that clear, and I am sure I shall succeed ; but I must ask the indulgence of the House^ because it will be 1' [ i tn r the V my duty to quote many long <>xtrnots from public documonta. When the coalition Gov- eninioiit was formed in 18(»4, to oari-y out the project of Confederation, the Protestant inLiiorlty of Quebec had been for many years In Hie enjoyuitrnt of thelir separate schools ; and I am proud to say here, as a Liberal, tliat this privilege was granted to them, not by tlie Jji^gisliuturo of United Canada, but by tlie Legislature of Lower Canada, at the time when Mr. I'npineau iield sovereign sway therein ; and I am proud also to l»e jfl)le to say, and to bo aljle to piv)V(> by ample , testiniony, tiiat the privilege which had been | granted by tlie Freiicli-Canadiau majority in the old Lowor Canada Legislature to the Protestants had always been most liberally maintained. In the debate on Confederatlitn in 18G5, Mr. Rose, subsequently Sir Joliu Rose, used the following language :— Now, \vc, tlie l''iijrliHl) I'l'oti'stnnt minority of Fiowcr ! Cniuula, cuiinot forget that wliatiivcr right of scimraU' erlufation we have, whh aeuoriled to uh in the most | unrestricted way before the Union of the provinces, when we were in a minority and entirely in the hands of the F" nch po|)ulation. We cannot forget that in i no way wa^ there any attempt to in-event us educating our children in the mamier wt' saw tit and deemed ; best ; and I would \tu untrue to what is just if I forgot to state that tho distriliution of State funds for edu- cational purjjoses was made in such a way as to cause no complaint on the part of the minority. After the Union in 1841, the Protestant mi- nority felt still more secure in tlie enjoyment of their schools, because in tlie Par- lianieoit of United Canada, the majority was of thtiir oAvn creed and race, and when the project for Confederation was under con.sider- ation the Protestant minority in Quebec felt seme alarm at tlie prospect that they should be placed in the matter of educiition under the control of a majority, which in tiie past had proved liberal, it was true, but which would have the power of being the reverse of Uberal. Therefore they woi^ anxiious. before the system of Coufedea'ation came inibo opeiution, to perfect their school laws so as to place them beyond the power of the Local Legis- lature of Quebec. Tlie i-esolutions wlilch were adopted by the conference ait Quebec, and wliicli were the basis of Confederation, contained a special article with regard to education. Tills was article 45, subsection 0. It placed imder the jurisdiction of (lie Provincial Legislatures : Education — saving the rights and privileges which the Protestant or Catholic minority m both Canadas may possess as to their denominational schools at the time when the Union goes into oi)eratipn. Sir, it is quilte clear that aftei" the Union would come into effect the Protestr.nt mi- nority of Lower Canada would be secured in all the privileges wlilch they had at that time in matters of education. Now, there were two tilings as to which the Protestant mlnonUty wanted to be secure ; First, as to the proper dlstilbution of Government moneys, in mattere of education, and second, a Protestant board of education to manage their separate schools. Mr. Gait, who was then, as 1 said a moment ago, a member of tlie Govenimeut of Sir John Macdonald, the coalition (iDveriiment, spoke on this question in the mouth of October, 1804, In an address to liLs ctnLsiliuents ir the olty of Sherbrooke. Tills is the language he made use of. I take this fi\)in tiie MoiiLival "Gazette" of L*8th October, 1804 : He would now ('iideavour to speak somewhat fully as to one of the -most im|H)rtant (piegtions, perhai)s the most important that could ti" confined to the Legislature the ((uest ion of education. 'I'his was a (piestion in which, in Lower Canada, they must all feel the greatest interest, and in respect to which more misapprehenHion might Iw sujiposed to exist in the minds, at any rate of the I'rotestant |K>pulation, than in regard to anything else conn»'Cted with the whole scheme of federation. It nuist !>(> clear that a measure would not 1m' favourably entertained by the minority of Lowev Canada which woidd i)laeo the education of their children and the jirovision for their schools, wholly in the hands of a majority oL«a ditfrrent faith. It was clear that in confiding the general wul>ject of education to the Local Legislatures It was absolutely necessary it should be accompanied with s\ie.h restrictions as would prevent injustice in any respect from Ix-ing w. Sir, I call the atttention of the House to this language of Mr. Gait : " Tliere could Ite no greater injustice to a population tlian to compel tliem to have Uieir cliildron educa- ted in a manner contrary to their own reli- gious belief." He continued : It had lieen stipulated that the question was to be made subject to the rights .and jinvileges which the minorities might have as to their sepsirate and de- nominational schools. There had been grave difficul- ties surrounding the separ.ate school question in Upper Canada, but they were all settled now, and witli regard to the sejiarate school system of iKJwer Canada, it was the dc^termination of the Government to bring down a measure for the amendment of the school laws before the Confedt;iation was allowed to go into force. He m.ade this statement because, as the clause was worded in the printed resolution, it would appear that the school law, .is it at present existed, was to be con- tinued. Attention liad, however, been drawn in tlie Confederance to the fact that the school law, as it existed in Lower Canada, required amendment, but no action was taken there as to its alteration, because he hardly felt himself coini)etent to draw up the amendments required ; and it was far better that the mind of the British |>opulation of Lover Canada should be brought to bear on the subject, and that the (jiovernment might hear what tijey had to say, so that all the amendments roqiiired in the law might be made in a Bill to be submitted to Parliament. Now, Sir, you see tliat the Intention of the Government of that time, as expressed by Mr. Gait, was, before the scheme of Con- fedea*atlon came into operation, to perfect the 6 R school liiwH with rcKiirtl to aepiinito schools, HO Uiat the l'n>t«'Htftnt inliwu'lly would bo pliuH'd l)oyon(l tlio caprke or ill-will of tlie Ixji'iil LoKlslature. in lUio scssilon which followfMl, llio wwHlon of 18(55, In which tho pix)Jt'('t of (V(»iif»>(lt'riitlon wiiB debati'd, It had h(H>ii accepted that this ploM in tills country -Mr. Hoiton, in the session of lSOr», di-ew tiie att^'UtiOn of tiu> r}ov«TniU"nt to the fadt Ihat tlie luvmiised amendments to tlie school law had not been brouulit down j'ot. On tlu? 3rd l-'ebruai-y. ISO.'i, Mr. Hoiton siioici; on this quesllon In tlicse words : Then lUKitiior qiit'stiiPii wiiicti lie had imiposcd U> put Imri fi'fcrt'lioc to tlif (■(liiciitidiml systi'iu of Lower Canada. 'I'hc Minister of I'Mimnce, in a siiccch at Sherl)ro(iko, had inoniiscd that the < Jovcninient would introdut'P a Hill to amend the sehool laws nf Jiower Canada. The hon. getitlenmn must lie aware that tliiw w.aH a (luestion on which tliere was a gi'eat deal of f»'elintj in this section of the imivince ainongst the English-siie.iking, or I'rotestant, class of the iHipula- tion. He did not like to introduce anythinj,' of a relicious character into discussions of this House, hut in a('l)atinK the great chaiiKcs which it was jiroposed to «'fTect in our system of government the effect of theui uiK)li that class to which he referred nnist he considered, Among tiiat class there was no iihase or feature of these threatened changes which excited so much alarm as this very (piestion. Well, the Minister of Finance had said, with great soleiiiiiity, as having the authority of his colleagues for it, that this sessi(Mi tlie Government would l)ring down amendnients to the school laws of Lower Canada, which th(\v proiM)sed enacting into law before ii change of (iovernment should take jilace, and which wotild become a jier- manent settlement of that (piestion. That was the whole gist of the question then. The Gov(>rnment pi-oposed to amend th(> school law and make a permanent settlement of tliat vjuestJon : The question he then desired to put was whc'ther. they intended to submit these amendments l)efore they asked the House to pass finally u))on the other scheme of Confederation, .and, if so, to state when he House might look for that measure, as it would undoubtedly exercise very considerable influence u])on the discussion of Confederation scheme, and probably in the last resfirt from several niwnbers from Lower Canada. (Hear, iiear. ) I have stated here the reasons which im- pelled Mr. Hoiton to press upon the Gov- ernment of the day this very question of edu- cation. Now, let me call attention to the an- swer which was given to Mr. Hoiton by tlie then Prime Mnister, Mr. John A. Max.-donald : As to the school question, it liad been ainioiuiced by Hon. Mr. Gait, at Sherbrooke, that Ix-fore Con- federation took place, this Parliament would lie asked to consider a measure which lie hoi)ed would lie satisfactory to all classes of the community. There wan ft gfKwl deal of apprehension in Lower Canada on the part of the minority there^ as to the |N)ssilih-etfect (if Ciiiifederation on their rights on the subject of education, and it was the intention of the GoNcrn- nient, if Parliament approved the scheme of tNin- federation, to lay Iwfore the House this session, certain amendments to the school law, to operate as a sort of guarantee against any infringement by this majority of the rights of the minority m this matter. So hero you see again In this statement of Mr. John A. Macdonald, the same Idea still prevailing, that the school law was to be amended so as to give a guarantee to tlie I'rotestant minority of Lower Canada that the moment the scheme of Coufed<>ration came into force, tlie Protestjint minority would 1)0 secured in all the rights which they claimed, and that It would not be in the power of the Itoman Catholic and French ina.|ority to dejirive tlieiii of any of those rigiits. The session passwl, however, without this propo.sed law being introduced; but in the following s(>ssiou of 18(1(1, tlie last ses- sion of the old I'arliament of Canada, ii Hill was Introduced by the Government, and this Bill was placed In tlie hands of the tlien Solicitor-General, the present member for Three Kivers (Sir Hector liangevin). 1 liave it in my hand ; it is too long to quote it in its entirety to the House ; but the whole Bill showed tliat tho iwlicy whicJx tlu> Govern- ment had tlieu in view was in effect to seciu'o to tlio Protestant minority of (Quebec what 1 stated a moment ago, a fair share of the linbiio moneys for education, and a Prott>stant Hoard of Education to nianaj;o their own scliools. Section 2 of tlio Bill r^-ads as follows :— 'I'he superior ediuation will comprise the universi- ties and t\w classicnl and industrial colleges or semin-^ aries, and the provincial aid thereto as well as that for academies shall lie .annually divided lietween the Konian Catholic and Protestant institutions in pro- liortion to the respt-ctive Roman Catholic and Protest- ant population according to the then last censu.s. Tlwn sec^tlon 92 enacte HlvorH. luoroly sulistltut- inj; llio wonls " (^pp<'r ('iui;ul;i " for lUo wunlH " Lower OaiiiUla." Then an occurifiico took place which was still more Hlii«ular. The rt'prcsonlatlon from Upper Canada was op- posed to a man to the Bill Introdmvd by Mr. Boll, 'I'lic (Jovernnient could have carried It with the votes of the i*epresentatlon from l.,ower Canada; but tln> mend)ei"s for liower (Canada, who were ready to vote for the Bill KlvhiK protection to tho Protestant nil- n(»rlty of Lower Canada, would not do so xni- less the same thln^ was done for the Catho- lics of Upper Canada by adoptliif? Mr. Bell's Bill. So that the (Sovernment would have had to carry the Bill of Lower Canada wltli tho majority of Upper Canada, and the Bill of UpiK>r Canada with th<> majority of Lower Canada. Well, Mr. John A. Macdonald refrained from that coui-se, ho would not attempt It, and the con- seqixence was that he withdrew the Bill, which was meant to secure to the Protest- ant minority of Lower Canada tho rlphts and privileges which were contained ni tliat Bill ; lUid the further consequence was that Mr. Gait resigned as a meiid)or of the Govern- ment. Tho whole matter came up for discus- sion in the session of ISlK], on August 7. Mr. .Tohn A. Macdonald explained tlio whole transaction whldi I have just summarlzetl, and tills is the language wlilch ho used ; Tlify were fully convinced of tlic lilicnility of ncnti- nicnt of the Lower Ciiniul.'i niiijority; tliere wiis no (loiil)t as to tlie course of that majority iijioii tlie Hill ; they were (jtiite willing' to concetle'to their Lower Canada fellow-snhjects of MritiMJi orijfin the privilege wliidi it was designed to give them. Hut a similar Bill has lieen introduced liy the memlier for Russell for Upper Canadi; giving to tiie Catholic majority of Upper Canada precisely the same inivileges. The (4(jvernment found lieyond doubt that there woidd have bt^en a very large majority from l' pjier Canada against that Hill. All the memiicrs from ll^pper Canada but himself, were iirei)ared to vote against it. The Government had also foimd that tlierri was a strong fet^lhig, and a very natm-al feeling, among the Catholic majority "f Lower (^anada, tliat their co- religionists in the west ought to enjoy the same in'i- vilege.s as they were wilHiigto give tlie Lower Canada minority, and therefore made a difficulty in the way of carrying the Government I'.ill, whicli by itself would liave|)assed with a larjje majority, liad this Bill been pushed, also, the singular spectacle of a Bill for JTpper Canada being carried by Lower Can- ada, anil a Bill for Lo\ver Canada by Ui)per Canada votes would have been presented. This would have been a most unfortunate occurrence. They were not like ordinary Bills ; if passed they would have been a fundamental part of the constitution of tlie country. It wa.s not clesirable, therefore, in the [jresent po.si- tion of affairs, that such a result should have been produced. * * « « rp],^ niinority in each section would have to throw themselves on the justice and generosity of the majority. * * » * Thehon. Minister of Finance, who had taken a very particular interest in this Bill, had felt it to be his duty to tender his resignation when his colleagues liad come to tlie coneliHlon to drop the Bill, and bin resignation was now in the hands of His Kxcellency. His lion, friend had iN'in in .m eHjiecial n.anner the guardian of the rights of the Lower ( 'aniida minority. Now, Sir, I call the attention of the House to the concluding sentence In tho speech of Sir .lohn Macdiiuald : The minority ill each section would have to throw themselves on the justice and geiieiosity of the ma- jt^rity. The Protestant minority of (.Quebec would not be satlslled with that, bat continued tho agitation In order to obtain something more substantial than the generosity of their fel- low-countrymen In the Legislature. The agitation was carried on, and It was carrl('vious had resigned because he could not carry that Bill which h(> wanted for the Protestant minority of Que- bec, had been a.sked to be one of the delegates, and had accepted. Naturally It was stirmlsed that If :Mr. Gidt had accepted iind had lu'come a delegate he must have received from tiie Government of Canada some assurance that the proposition which he w;int(.'d to have brought Into the Confederation scheme would be carried out. And this surmise was right, I)ecause on October li4 of that year, 18(W3, the ;Montroal " Gazet'te," -vYhicli then as uow was the organ of the Government, contained the following article :— We have much pleasure in aniiouiicing that during the recent jn'otracted sittings of tht>Caliinet at Ottawa, the subject of the position of the Lower Ciliada Kdu- cation tpiestion was very fully considered. Tiie Mil - istry were, we understand, desirous that Mr. ( ialt sliould b<^ appointed as a dtle^'ate to represent the iiiti^'ests of the I'ritisli ]M)pulatioii ; but that gentle- man felt that he could not accept unless lie was assur- ed as to the views of the Coveriiment on the points that so seriously concern his countrymen and co- religionists, and which so deeply rouse their feelings. We are informed that the Ministry entirely satisfied Mr. Gait of their determination to give practical effect to the pledges given in I'arliament, and the gentleman has in conse(|\ience acce))ted the apiioint- nient of delegate for the exiiress piir|>ose of watching over these important interests as well as of lenrial Parlia- luout lu I'('l)ruary, l.S(J7. That Kill waH pub- HhIumI, not tlio la .V, let it bo ri>in«>iiilH>r<*tli (.'uiiikIiik liiuy |ici,sscKM UH til tlii'ir (li'iiiiiiiiiiiitinnitl scIiiioIm, At the tiino when the Utiidii |<(i(>h into opt-nition, I b(!caiiio In tho Hill tho compllcattHl sect ion No. m of the Ib-llish North Ainerlca Act. All the provisions contained In subsections 1, 2 and ;? of se^Mlon \V,i were introduced by Mr. Gn\t for llie special prot^'ction of the Protest- ant minority of Qiiobec. Now, Sir, I again call attention to tills, that section )).'{ wa.s In- tr(Mbiceed not do so as I have hero written evidence' in an article published on tlie following day, March 2, by tho ministerial organ, the :Montreal " Gazette," and 1 call tlie attention of the Hpuse to this article. The " Gazette " wrote as follows :— Few (lUcstioiiM liuvoi'xt'iti'd a more lively interest in this country tliaii the echiuatiim of children in pub- lic schools, or, perhapM, it would be more accuiate to snv, the ap|iropriatiiin of taxation for tiiat piirpow. We need not rc|H'at the jiarticnlars of the ajfitation ' on the s\ibjfict, which commenced with thi' promul- gation of the resolutions of the conference of (^ueliec, and resulted in Mr. (Jalt lesignin^c his seat in the Cabinet. The short of the stoij is, all this led to an agreement on th(i part of the Canadian (iovernment to advise Her Majesty's Ministers to insert in the Union Hill the provisions with which the public are, undoubtedly, already aware. That was the apree- ment to which we referred, in October last, as liavinj,' been satisfactory to Mr. Gait, and on the strength of which he consented to become a delegate to London. The public may find in these provisions in the Bill the proof of the statement made by us, which some of our conteniiK)raries, without any evidence, undertook to call in question. Before the question of Confederation was m(X)ted, the constant cry on the jiart of ajKirtionof the Lower Canada Protestant minority was : (Jive us the same privileges as those enjoyed by tlie ITpper Canada niinority. Well, the Bill as it stands, in terms, jiro- , vides that the minority in Lower Canada shall have precisely tlie same privileges as the minority in Upper Canada. And, further, that the minorities in all the pro- vinces shall have the right of apjwai to the general Parliament. The bill, in this form, undoubtedly, in our opinion, will become the fundamental law of the country, forming a part of its ix)litieal constitution ; and tiiat, as such, it must Ije accei)ted. It affords essential gua- rantees as well in immediate |)ractice as in ultimate resort. The main tiling required in immediate prac- tice is that the moneys collected from the taxation of Protestants, shall, if required, be available for the itup|¥irt of wparato «chctH." At tlix tiiiiK tlii> ('onft'ilt-nitiiiii Act witN iiiif|i>r oin- Mi(l«riiti()ii, it witN fiiuml ii)'<'i proviiiri' of ll)in. ! Mr. (Jivlt, \vii)).i). ).tfortH \V)'r»' I'Diwiiol witii (tiicci'SH Ity ] the iiitrcKhiction of thi- 2nii paruKi'iipli of the !)Mi'ii i cluiiMii of our (Jonf)<(h.riiti)iii Act, Mr. Cai'tor only npnko of tlio Hocond imra- gmpli, but it Ih fquiilly (■«>rlalu tliat Mr. (ialt liaH also tho iut>iit of having iutroituct'*! tlii> wholo of tliat c'laiiso. Upon that luotloii, Mr. Duukin, who was then trcasuivf in .Mr. (Jliau- veau'w (tovonmu'iit, iiiado tla» followhitf ro- marks : Witii reKui'il to ('(luciitioli, h)' iiiiil not th)' sli(jlit)'»t doiilit that that (pD'Htion will III' Ni.ttli' privileges to all the other mi- norities of the other provinces. It Is mani- fest from the words spoken yesterday by the hou. niember for Three lllvers (Sir Hector Langevln)— who can spetik with iuithorlty on this subject since he was one of the dele- gates—the Intention of the delegates to Lon- don was : that these securities, these guaran- tees, which hiul been devised by Mr. Gait, It is true for the Protestant minority in Que- bec, should be extended to all minorities aa well. My hon. friend from North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) tells us that. In his opinion, al- though this section may apply to Quebec, and may apply to Ontario, .and perhaps to the older provinces of the Dominion, yet It should not apply to Manitoba. Well, Sir, I hope tliat my hon. friend on this occasion will not take a narrow construction of the law, iind I Siiy for my part : that the law has to be construed In a generous and liberal spirit, and whatever privileges are guaranteed to one minority In a province I claim in the name of justice and fairness, for all minori- ties In all of the provinces. My hon. friend spoke yesterday as a lawyer, and perhaps, after all. Ills contention as a lawyer may be true that the Manltolxv Act has limited the general Act. But It seems to me that he was successfully answered on this point yester- day by the hon. member for Three Rivera (Sir Hector Langevln), when that hon. gen- tleman called his attention to section 2 of 10 the Manitoba Act. acts: Section 2 of that Act en- The proviHions of tlic British North America Act, 18(17, shall, ex('fi)t those parts thereof whicli are in terms made, or, by reasonable inten(lm«'nl, may be held to b(> si)ecially apjilieablo to, or only to affect one or more, but not the whole of the provinces now eomjKjsinff tiie J)oniinion, and excejit so far as the same may be varied by this Act, be ai)plicable to tiie province of Manitoba, in the same way, and to tlie like extent as tiiey apply to tlie several provinces of Canada, and as if the province of Manitoba had been one of the iirovinces originally unititl by the said Act. It seems to nie that this very section lias imported into the Manitoba Act the whole of section 93 of the J^ritish North America Act, and that the privioges whicli are there guaranteed to th(> Protestant minority of Quebec are ipso facto to be extended as well to the Koman Catholic minority of Manitoba. Now, Sir, what was the inten- tion of the franicrs of the constitution on this pohit V Let us set aside Manitoba for a moment. Manifestly, Sir, the intention of the framere of the constitution was that whenever a law relating to education was passetl in. a province which had enjoyed a system of separate schools, which law the minority aeemed oppressive, tliat minority should have the right to come before the Dominion tJoveniment— nay, before the Do- minion Parliament— and claim justice— claim to be protected from that oppressicm. This is the construction I put upon that provision of tlie constitution. In my estimation no other constniction can be put upon tliat pro- vision of the law. What I want to know is the meaning of these words : "An ap- peal shall lie to the Governor in Council ?" An appeal of what V An appeal against legislation which the minority deems op- pressive. And for my part. Sir, I hold it as my deliberate opinion that by the con- stitution of this counti-y, the Dominion Parlia- ment have been entrusted with powers of supervision in matters of education over the local legislatutes, and that whenever a mi- nority feels oppressed, its privilege and its right is to come before the Dominion Gov- ernment and lay its case before that Govern- ment. And, Sir, if there Is an appeal, it follows as a consequence that the authority to whicli the appeal lies has the right to interfere. But, Sir, so strong am I in my conviction of provincial riglits tliat I am bound to say at once that this privilege of appeal shoidd not be exercised except for very cogent reasons, and this interference should not take place either, except for very, very cogent reasons— reasons implying such an abuse of power on the part of the local legislature as no man with a heart in his bosom would submit to. Now, Sir, I can easily conceive, in view of what has taken place of late, of such an abuse of power taking place. Suppose— it ia hardly sup- posable, but suppose— that the Legislature of Quebec were to-morrow to abolish the system of separate schools in that province. As you know, we have in Quebec no schools but religious schools — Koman Catholic schools and Protestant schools. Suppose the Legislature of Quebec were to-morrow to abolish tlie system of separate schools ex- isting there, so that the Protestant popula- tion would have either to send their children to tlie Roman Catholic schools or bring them up in ignorance or tax themselves a second time to pstablisli schools of their own. Sir, if, imdcr the circumstjiiices, an appeal were brought to this Government, is tliere a niiui in this House who would not say at once to the Government : It is your bounden duty at once to interfere and make away witli this obnoxious and tyrannical legisla- tion ? But. Sir. I sliall be told, perhaps, by my lion, friend from North Simcoe that such a case is not supposaole at all, because if tlie Legislature of Quebec were to attempt to abolish the separate schools in that province, that legislation would be null and void, be- cause' the L(^t;islature has not the power to abolish the separate schools. That I grant ; but I would call my hon. friend's attention to another supposition, which is quite sup- posable, though I hope it will never take place, and I am sure it will not, so long as the spirit of liberality which at present ex- ists in the province of Quebec continues. But lot me suppose this case. I have quoted to you the law which now prevails in Que- bec— the law demanded by the Protestant population of that province, giving them a school board of their own. I have quoted to you the law whereby ini 1S(J9 two separ- ate boards of education were organized, a Roman Catholic board and a Protestant board. The Roman Catholic board to-day is composed of seventeen members, nine CathoUc laymen and all the Ro- man CathoUc bishops of the province. Now, suppose that to-morrow the Legis- lature of Quebec were to abolish the Protestant school board. Then, by the effect of tliat Lr\-. the management of the Protestiint scho< is would become vested in the Roman Catholic Board of the Council of Education, that is to say, practically in the hands of the Roman Catho- lic bishops. If such legislation were to be enacted by the Legislature of Quebec, is there a man to say tliat it would not be a most infamous act of tyranny ? Sir, if to- morrow such a law were enacted, the flret thing that the Protectant population would do woiUd be to come before this Govern- ment and ask this Government, in virtue of the p.iAvoi's vAstod in it by tlie Constitution, to abolisli at once tlie obnoxious and tyran- nical legislation. If the Protestant popula- tion were to come and represent to the Gov- ernment tliat theh- schools, the Protestant schools, had been placed under the manage- ment of the Roman Catliolic bishops of the province, I say that every man in this House, be he Protestant or Catholic, would at once call upon the Government to abolish the law 1 ^^ 11 '^ and to pass the romcdial lopislatior to the Protestant minority. Well, Sir, I claim that under the constitution as we have it, it is for such abuses of authority and power that this section 93 has been intix)duced. But I may, perhaps, be told that there is no parallel between what I have suggested and what has taken place in Manitoba. 1 may be told that the system of schools that has ' been introduced in Manitoba is not a system I of Protestant schools, but a system of public schools. Sir, let m(! call the attention of the House to the complaint of the Roman Catho- lic jtoinilatiou of Manitoba. My lion, friend from North Simcoe is aware that previous to the legislation of 1890, they had in Mani- toba the snm<> system of schools that we have in Quebec— religious schools, either Protestint or Catholic— aud that in 1890 . that system was abolishetl by law, to be re- placed as it is said, by a sysUMU of public schools. Now, Sir, I will quote to the House the complaint of the Roman Catholic population of Manitoba, as it is contafnod In the petition sent to the Government by His Grace the Archbishop of St. Boniface : Ti> ffi.i E.rcrlli ncii the (>'nri riior-d'oirrril in Cninici/. Tlic liniulilc iK'tition of tlic >iiulcisi<'gislativ(' Assembly iif Manitoba to moi'f^e tlic Konian ("atliolic stliools with tliosc of tlic Protestant (icnoininations, and to rc(|nircall members of tlie community, .vlM'tlier Roman Clatholic or Pro- testant, to contribute thvouj^li taxation to the sujiport of what arc therein (idled jiublie schools, but which are in reality a continuation of the Protestant schools. Sir, I heard the remark casually made jestor- djiy in the House, that this statement was not true, nud that tlie system of schools now pre\ ailing in ^lanltob.a was not a continua- tion of the Protestant system. I have looked o^•(M• the whol(> blu(>-book. and a?l the corres- lioudence broiiglit down, and I fail to find any language there traversing that statement. It may or may not be true, but I deal with tlie case as I find it liefore the Government to- day, but If the statement is foimdcd on fixot which is made by His Crrace Ai'clibishop Tach6, and which is re- peated in nil the petitions coming from the Romnn Catliolics of Manitoba, that, undcv the gulso of public school.s. Pi-otestant schools are being continued, and that Roman Catholic children are forced, under that law, to attend what are, in reality, Protestant schools, I say this— and let my words be heard by friend or foe, let them bo pubhshed in the press throughout t\u\ length of the Land— that the strongest case has been made , for Interference by this Government. If that statement be time, though my life as a politi- cal man should tliereby l)e ended for ever, i what I say now I shall be prepared to re- ^ peat, and would repe.at on every platform in | Ontario, ('very platform in Manitoba, nay. j every Orange lodge throughout the land, that the Catholic minority has lieen subjected to a most Infamous tyranny. This is the case as I find it. Now, these are the facts Ix^forc this Government. There was the complaint madd to gentlemen on the other side, there was the complaint made by the Roman Catholics of ^Manitoba, that, under the guise of pubUc schools, tlieir children were com- pelled to attend Protestant schools. I appeal to every man In tills Hoxise, whether he be on this side or on the other side, I appeal to Catholic and Protestant alilie, If this com- plaint be true, whether there is a man who will stand up and say that the Roman Catho- lics are to be subjected to that system . Let tlie lion, gentleman who is going to follow me in a moment, and speak in favour of the Govemment, let him, if that statement be true, say whether he is in favour of the Roman Catholics being subjected to tliat system. I would not hesitate, if the state- ment is true, to go aliead and plead the case of the Catholics in Winnipeg with the Gov- emment of Mr. Greenway himself, because. If there is such an outrageous state of things prevailing in the province of Manitoba, not a moment is to be lost in coming to the rescue of the oppressed minority. These are my sentiments. That is the position upon which I stand at this moment, and that is the reason why I arraign the Govemment as I do. There was the fact which they should have investigated, and to which they should have addressed themselves, but Instead of investi- gating that fact, they tried every subterfuge in their power to delay investigation, because. If they studied the question tliey would have to come to a decision . I charge against the Govemment that they have resorted to evei*y possible subterfuge in order to avoid coming to a decision. The first thing they did was to reft" the matter to the courts of law— first to the com-ts of IMsinltoba, then to the Snitvcmo Court. Mud then to tlie Privv Council. But, I may be told, surely you will not call this .1 su1>torfuge. Y(^s. I do call this a sub- terfuge, because of the mami(>r in which it was done. T call It a subterfuce because the CrOvemnuMit never intended that the decision sliouid lie fiiKil. The case was refci'red to judicial arbitration, and it is a i)rimaiy rule that judicial arbitration Is final to the contend- ing parties. The parties avIio go bofore the courts are to be bound by the iiward. Such is not the case in this matter. One of the jiarties was told it might go before the courts, and if there it failed, it could go before the Government, and the Government would hear its complaints. This was tlie language used by the Prime Minister, then ^Minister of Justice, in March, 1891 : If the ai)peal should be successful these acts will be annulled by judicial decision, the Roman Catholic minority in \Laiutoba will receive i)rotection and redress. The acts puriiortinp to be repealed will re- main in o))eration, and those whose views have been represented by a majority of tlie Legislature cannot but rocogni/.e that the matter lias been disposed of 12 witti due rcgiird to tho eunHtitutioiuil riglits of the proviiiw. If the legal controversy hIiohM result in tlie de- cision of the Court of l/ueen'.s Heiich being sustained the time will come for Voin- I'^xeellency to consider the jM-titions which have been jiresented hy and on l>ehiilf of tlieHomivn Catholics of Manitoba for redress under subsections (2) and (;<) of section 22 of tht! ; "Manitol)a Act," quoted in the early jtart of iliis reiMjrt, and which are analogous to thts provisions made by tiie "British Nortli America Act, "in re- lation to the other provinces. As I said a laoment ago, the two parties were told to go berore the courts, but one was told, at the same time : If you fail, then come before us. The party to which that lan- guage was spoken was ihe lloman Catholic ; minority. Well, they went b( fore the courts, j They failed, and tlien the.v came before the | (ioverumcnt, and instead of havhig their case ; dealt with, there was another subtei-fuge. \ Tills time the subterfuge was that the Gov- ; ernment which had promised to deal with ' that case could no longer deal with it, because they were judges and had become a .iudicial tribunal. I will not enter into an argument j as to this point, but cannot refrain from noticing the extraordinaiy doctrine laid down ; to-day by the hon. member for Albert (Mr. ■ Weldon). If I understood him aright, he said ^ that the Government were endowed with .iudicial powers, that they could sit as a court, that this privilege still pertained to the Gov- ennnent of England, and he reviewed a quo- tation made by the lion, member for North Simcoe (Mr. McCarthy) yesterday. That hon. goiitloman had read fi'om Bagehot the follow- ing sentence :— First, it is laid down as a jirincijile of English polity, that in it the les'islative, the executive and tin- judicial jiowfirs are divided, that each is entrusted to a different iieison or set of per.sons, that no one of these can at all interfere with the work of the other. Tho hon. member for Albert said that this sentence should have been prefaced liy the preceding sentence which governs it, and which is as follows :— There are two descrijjtions of the Knglish Constitu- tion which have exercised innuense influence, but which are erroneous. According as the hon. gentleman read this sentence, it should read this way : that It is erroneous to say that the legislative, the executive and the judicinl power are divided. But this is not at all the way the sentence should be read. It should be read in this way, that in England it is erroneous to say thjit the legislative and executive powers are divided. Bagehot only speaks of the leg- islative and executive powers. He speaks no- where of the .judicial power, and tlier»»fore the hon. gentleman from Albert (Mr. Weldon) misread completely the authority of Bagehot on tliis point. To make this more plain, J will give another quotation from Bagehot, which I find on page 78 : The'etticient secret of the I'.nglish Constitution may be descriljed as the «lose union, tlie nearly complete fusion of the executive and legislative jiowers. No doubt by the traditional theory, as it exists in all the Ijooks, the goodness of our Constitution consists in the entire sei)aration of the legi.slative and executive authorities, Init in truth its merit consists in their singular approximation. Tills, Sir, Is what the hon. gentleman com- pletely failed to understand. Ha .siiys that by practice and theory imder British polity the vxecutlvo and legislative powers are separ- ate entirely. Bagehot says they are closely united and that tlie Government Is simply a committee of the House of Commons. Mr. WELDON. The word "judicial" is found In the tiftli line of that paragi-apli. IVIr. I/AURIER. It is Indeed fouiiil In the fifth line. But surely, Sir, the hon. gentleman will not road a book and see in it only one wonl. The hon. gentleman knows that the Avhole chapter is devoted simply to tlie execu- tive and legislative power and not at all to the judicial power. Oh, oh. Itead the following sen- ]Mr. ^VELDON. iSIr. HAGGART. tonce. Mr. LAUKl ER. No, I will not read the fol- lowing sentence. I will quote the Flret Mlnist- ter against my hon. friend from Albert (Mr. \\'eldon). Tlie First Minister In Ids speech the other day, repudiated the theor,v of juilicial power put forth by the hon. gentle- man, and contended that all along he was ■.H'tins imder ministerial responsibility. Sir, the hon. gentleman's argmnent was this— that even If he would he could not divest himself of ministerial resiponsiblllty. Sir, I knoAV very well tliat tlie hon. gentleman and tlie Govommont could not divest themselves of ministerial responsibility in point of Itiw, but. In point of fact they succeeded man'ellously in freeing themselves from ministerial respon- sibility. TiUie tlie conduct of my hon. friend tl.„ hon. Minister of Interior ; when he was (luestloned he sliielded himself behiml his ])ositlon as a judge at once, and thus lie avoided ministerial responsibility^ in fact. He could not avoid lliait responsibllily in point of law% but in pouit of fact he avoided it completely. Now, Sir, let me call the atten- tion of tlie House to tlie exti-aordinary lan- gn.igo in which tills new doctrine, this new sulrterfuge to avoid responsibility is set down by the Prime Minister. This is tlie report of the sul)-commlttee, drawn up by the Prime :Mlnlster : The application comes before Your Excellency in a manner differing from ajiiilications which are ordin- arily made under the Constitution to j-our Excellency in Coimcil. In the opinion of tin.' sub-committee, the api)lication is not to be dealt with at present as a matter of political character or involving jxjlitical action on the jjart of Your Excellency's advisers. It is to l)e dealt with by Yoiu" Excellency in Council, regardless of the personal views which Your Excel- lency's advisers nuvy hold with regai'd to denomina- tional schools — " Regardless of the persoual views which Your Excellency's advisera may hold with re- I 18 IS ft t gard to denoralnatloual schools.'* How con- venient that doctrine which permits the ad- visers of His Excellency to poclcet at once their opinions and their emoluments ! —and witiiout the jjolitical action of any of itlie mem- bers of Your Excellency's Council being considered as pledged by the fact of the ai)|)eal bein^ entertained and heard. If the contention of tlie |)etitioners Ym correct, that such an apiteal can be sustained the inquiry will l)e rather of a judicial than of apolitical character. The sub-committee have so treated it in hearing counsel, and in permitting their only meeting to be ojwn to the juiblic. The sub-committee had permitted that their only meeting be open to the public. Then, Sir, the Government sat as a whole, and ihey sat with great dignity and sc»lemuity as a court of Justice. Sir, the coimtry was thrilled with admiration when, on the 22nd of Junu- aiy, we heard of the proceedings of the new Star Chamber that we now have in Canada, as it was properly so designated by the hon. member for North Siracoo (Mr. McCarthy). Let mo read it nguin to tJio House : At the Privy Council Chamber at Ottawa. Present :— Her Majesty's Privy Council for Canada, Mr. Ewart appeared for the minority ])etitioner.s. The President of the Council— A re|K)rt— It is now the President of the Council who speaks, the Cliiei Justice of the court : —report of the sub-committee of the Council ap- pointed to consider the petition of the minority m the province of Manitoba m reference to the .school laws of that jjrovince recommended that Saturday, the 2l8t day of January, 1893, at the Chamber of the Privy Council at Ottawa, should be fixed for the hearmg of the parties. This meeting is convened to hear argument on the points raised by the sub-com- mittee of the Council on the appeal of the minority in the province of Manitoba on the question of schools. Mr. Ewart, are you ready ? Mr. Ewart.— I am ready. The President of the Council. — Do yoti reqiiire to have the report of the sub-conmiittee read ? Mr. Ewart. — I have been furnished with a copy. The President of the Council. — Then you may pro- ceed. I need not, Sir, read to the House the argu- ment of Mr. Ewart, but, while Mr. Ewart is proceeding to address the court, perhaps it may not be out of place if we review the court Itself. At the end of the board was the Chief Justice, the President of tiie Coun- cil (Mr. Ives), a lawyer in his early days, with whom I have had the pleasure of arguing many a case, but who, for the last ten years, I am sure, has not appeared Inside a court- liouse. Then came the Minister of Justice (Sir John Thompson), an able lawyer, as everybody admits, but who, from his con- nection with the case, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Nortii Simcoe, was dis- qualified from sitting In the case and would have been disqualified in any court in tlie land, except tiiLs. Then there was the Soli- citor-Greneral (Mr. Cun*an), who was dis- qualified for the same reason. Then, Sir, came my hon. friend the Minister of Public Works, who also In his early days was a lawyer, but who has since distinguished himself as a banker, a politician and a soldier. Then ' came my hon. friend the Minister of Interior (Mr. Daly), who, I believe, up to some time ago, not very late, was a lawj-er, but who, as lie said hiiiisolf on a fonucr occasion in another place, is full of vim and vigour and would introduce jjolltics even hito iiumicipal government. Mr. DALY. It came out right, too. i Mr. IMTILOCK. You got your man licked. ' Mr. DALY. We carried Toronto. , Mr. LAUIIIER. Then came my hon. friend tiie Controller of Inland Itevenue (Mr. Wood, Brockville), for years a successful lawyer, but absorbed of late in tiie intricjicios of Excise duties on whiskey, beer and tobacco. Then I there was the hon. the Postmaster-General ; (Sir Adolphe Oaron), who, at one time, dab- : bled in law, as did most of us, but who won the cross he wears on his breast as a war- 1 rior and not as a lawyer. Then came ray I hon. friend the hon. Minister of Agriculture j (Mr. Angers), who says that if he finds the constitution In his way he can Jump over the constitution. Then came my hon. friend the Minister of Finance (Mr. Foster), who has replaced by fijaance what he has forgot- ten about temperance. Then came the Min- ister of Trade and Com'uerce (Mi'- Bowell), the Secretary of State (Mr. Costigan), and the Controller of Customs (Mr. Wallace), Mr. CarUng and Mr. Smith, but as far as my knowledge goes these gentiemen have never distinguished themselves by tlieir legal studies. Such Avas the court. And after Mr. Ewart had finished addressing them, again the President of the Coimcil addressed the court and the public : I will, said the President, read a letter that has been received from the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba, Then he read the letter in which the Lieuten- ant-Governor acknowleges the receipt of the invitation to his Government to bo. present and the letter of the Government of Mani- toba stating that it would not appear before the court. The President of the Council. — Does any one else desire to be heard ? There being no reply, the President said : The Council will consult upon this subject and the public will please retire. The public retired. Sir. And, as the Augurs of old, according to Cicero, never met with- out laughing, I can well imagine that these improvised Judges, looking at each other, bui-st Into a hearty laugh over the whole comedy. Because comedy it Avas, and this last reference to tiie Supreme Court was only a part of the programme, and while I say so, I will now give my own autiiority. We have had a histoiy of the whole matter given by a gentleimin who occupies a seat In this House on the other side, the hon. mem- ber for East York (Mr. Maclean). This gen- tieman, as we know, is a Journalist, and is proprietor and editor of the Toronto " World," 14 and tlipre is a rumour afloat that l)etwi!en ] the " World " and the •' Emitlro " there Is rivalry as to which of tliem is nearer the ear of tlie Ministry. The " World " of 28th Novt'raber last, contained a despatch from Ottawa as follows :— Desiiatch from Ottawa. -Mr. W. F. Maclean, M.P., of tlie Toronto " World," is here. " Wliat alMjut tlifc Manitoba hcIum)! question ? " was asked. "Ah far as I can ^atlior, tlio Manitoba seliool (|ucs- tion is not to bn a disturbing' one, notwithstanding the predictions of many newspapers and iK)liticians to the contrary. It will not jfet into I'arliament this session, or tlie ne.xt. It is i)urely a matter of law and the interpretation of the Constitution, and as 8»ich it will be dealt with. As far as I am aware. Sir .John Thompson has undertaken the duties of Prime Minister unpledged in regard to the Manitoba school question, and he will ask none of his colleagues to commit themselves in any way on that subject. It will be settled in time in the courts and not by the politicians." That is not all. Tlie previous day there had been another desi)atch sent to the " World " from Ottawa, which read as follows :— The Manitoba School C^cejstion.— Aa was .stiid above, Sir John ajjproaches this question entirely un- jiledged. It is not a question that is likely to get into jxjlitics for some time to come, Imt on the contrary, it will immediately get into the court and have its set- tlement there. Manitoba .and the sympathizers of Manitoba in Ontario need have no fear of that ques- tion. The Roman Catholics iiave come to the Gov- ernment and claimed that it should step in and grant them remedial legislation. The Government have referreil them to a committee of their own members to hear their argument. That committee will arrange to have the whole question, as to whether the Gov- ernment can interfere or not, submitted to the Gov- ernment sitting as something like an open couiu. The gentleman who wrote that despatch was evidently well Informed, as subsequent events have shown : The Roman Catholics will be asked to establish a case, if they can, showing that such interference is constitutional. The i)rovince of Manitoba will Iw given an equal opportunity of answering and showing that it is not. The press and the public will be ad- mitted to the arguments. The Government will then decide on, not whether they have the iwwers of inter- ference or not, but whether they will remit the quest! on to the Supreme Court for decision or not. The ques- tion may go no further than a decision, not even to submit the question to the court. All this will be done before Parliament meets. If the Government decide to submit the question to the court for a deci- sion as to the powers of the Government and of Parlia- ment to interfere, that will put the question for the time out of jwlitics, and it will not be able to even be raised in Parliament in the coming session. If the court, in the course of a year, should decide that Par- liament and the Goveniment have the right to inter- fere, then the question conies back to jMilitics, and Sir John Thomnson and his party must take a stand. By that time, tlie fjuestion will be pretty well thresh- ed out, and you will not find the (lovernnient dis- |)osed to interfere, even if they have the right. They are not going to make trouble for themselves and their party. Sir .John Thompson, notwithstanding that has been said to the contrary, is impledged publicly or privately in the matter, aud he is not now going to pledge himself or liis jiarty on a question that cannot come up as a ixjlitical issue for yt^ars. For the present, separate schools for Manitoba are im]K)s- sible, and the Roman Catholics must accept it as such. This really relieves Sir John Thompson and his party of a troublesome question and gives him a free hand. The Liberals, and especially Mr. Laurier, will be forced by the facts to agree with this line of action. He cannot blame the Catliolics for claiming the right of interventicm, if the Government (lossess it, and he cannot blame the (iovernment for remitting the ques- tion to the Supreme Court for a determination wliether the (Jovernment, under the laws and consti- tution, have the right. Sir, I would not blame the Government for referring the matter to the Supreme Ooiurt If tliis reference is not to be, as a former one wtiM, a malcoshitt, if it is to be genuine aud elhcieut, as it ought to l)e ; but I blame the Government now, if the reference is made, as it was, simply as a malseshift and nothing else ; I blame the Government even now for not having done sooner what they should liave done. I blame them for these long de- lays, which only add fuel to the bitterness which now exists. Sir, we know that these constant triflings with burning questions ai*e fraught with danger ; we know that thrice ali-eady these tiiflings with burning questions have produced such convulsions as almost to imperil the life of Confederation. On thia occasion, after procrastination, after long delays, shifting of expedients, subterfuge, at last the Grovemment will have to pronounce a decision, the population will by that time have been excited to such" a pitch that the condition will be scarcely distiuguishable from open rebellion to the law ; and when that decision comes, whatever it may be, great disappointment is sure to resiilt, and an Im- pression wUl prevail that a great injustice has been done to a portion of Her Majesty's subjects. OTTAWA Printed b^; S. E. DAwaoN Printer to the Queer 's Most Ex jellent Majesty 1893 in