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1
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p
fr
REPORT
KkOM IIIK
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON'
COLONIAL MILITARY EXPENDITURE;
TUGETHSn WITH THE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
AND AN APPENDIX AND INDEX.
Ordertd, by The Houie of Commons, to Le Frinttd,
4 AugKst 183.').
i
4/0.
Mercurii, 4* die Martii, 183.5.
Ordered,! II Kt a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Military Establisli-
ments and txpenduure of the British Empire in the Colonies, in eompleiion of the
Inquiry wh>ch was commenced in the last Session of the last Parliament, and to report
their Observations thereupon to The House.
And a Committee was appointed, of-
Mr. William Gladstone.
Lord Viscount Ebrington.
Lord Stanley.
Sir Henry Hardinge.
Mr. Spring Rice,
Mr. Herries.
Mr. Ellice.
Sir Rufane Donkin.
Mr. Hume.
Sir John Byng.
Sir Henry Parnell.
The Earl of Darlington.
Colonel Fox.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre.
Captain Gordon.
Lord George Bentinck.
Sir Charles D'Albiac.
Colonel Grey.
Mr. Gisborne.
Major Fancourt. '
Sir Harry Verney.
Mr. Grote.
Colonel Evans.
Colonel Leith Hay.
Mr. Robert Gordon.
Mr. Bonham.
Ordered. That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers and Records.
Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee.
Mercurii, 1 8° die Martii, x 835.
n?tTc?V7 "^V; ^f°*';,''%discharged from any further attendance on the Committee •
lid Mr. Guest be added to the Committee. «-""iiiiiiiti, ,
Veneris, 22' die Maii, 1835.
Ordered. That Sir George Grey be added 10 the Committee.
Veneris, y die Julii, 183,5.
Ordered Jh^i Sir Rufane Donkin, Colonel Leith Hav Mr I cider Mr h;„ji
.,
Martis, 4* die Augusti, 1835.
Ordered, That the Committee have power to report iheir Opinion, toeether with
the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them. ^ wgemer with
THE REPORT
- p. Ill
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ....
- p. 1
APPENDIX
P- 80
INDEX - - - . .
'Mk- mlt
III
lisli-
th«
port
H E P O R T.
-y.
be
THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider the Mxmtak.
EsTABosHMKNTs and ExPKNniT.UK of the BaiTisu Empike
.n the CotoNiBS, in completion of t!. Inquiry which was commenced
n the last Session of the last Parliament, and who were empowered
to report the.r Opinion thereupon, together with the Minutes of
TUK EvioKNXK taken before them to The House ;- -Hav. con-
1. Resolved:
«„4 fr.,„e:,r; c'lin. b1,; .KS'S r/S^nt r''?;""™-
done a™ compccn. .„ aLirr'thelJi^'f ^SCm''- ' '" "°™'""""'
2. Resolved :
3. Resolvkd:
prtk„l.r .Al,cr.li„„s „r !l„l„cti„„s, re e,om" ,0 j' W 1 If r,r°"':"'"'''"T
4. RliSOLVKI) :
ana tiicy tbe.cfbre caH tf.risrTS'Si.^^tt ;!;;;:; "r^T'^'''"'"''';:^
expenses of articles annually distrilnue.l ,o th h,," ' Iw'tl "" '" '^^
man may not be made to dispense with sue ' dii bi^ oV^j^.^f fi^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 'T """^""g^-
thc presents for money. «'Miiuution m future, or to commute
5. Resolvld:
cl,anRc«|-,„u„i,s»itl.fclircncetol«lil" "™"» 'l'«' !'"« WloweJ the
4 /If/irM.sy IS'X),
I' *-
L iv ]
\
LIST OF WITNESSES.
Jovis, If/' die Martii, 1835.
Robert JVilliam Ihnj, Esq.
Lieutenant-general Ralph Darling ....
Maitis, 24* die Martii, 1835,
Lieutenant-general Ralph Darling ....
Mapr Joseph JValiclicld
Claptain Ilvnri/ Smjjth ......
Robert IVilliam Uaif, Esq.
Jovis, 26° die Martii, 183.5.
Thomas Archer, Esq - -
tJeneral Sir Peregrine Maitlund
Martis, 31* die Martii, 1835.
Lieutenant-colonel Horatio George Broke - - -
Robert IVilliam Hat/, Esq. ------
Martis, 7° die Aprilis, 1835.
General Sir Ililgrove Turner - . - . -
Colonel William Smelt ......
Vayita'in Sir Thomas Cochrane - - - . .
C'olonel Thomas Burlie ......
Francis Robert Bonhain, Esq., M. P. -
Jovis, 9* die Aprilis, 1835.
Robert William Hay, Esq. ------
Mercurii, 8" die Julii, 1835.
The Right Honourable General Sir James Kempt -
Martis, 14* die Julii, 1835.
Thomas Archer, Esq. --.--..
Veneris, 17" die Julii, 1835.
Deputy Assistant Commissary CIcneral William J. Greig, Esq.
Mr. Henry Chapman -------
Mr. William Bryan
Mr. George I'airfoul -----..
Mercurii, 22" die Jvilii, 1835.
Deputy Assistant Commissary-General IVilliam J. Greig, Esq.
F
. 1
P
• 4
P-
8
P-
11
P-
12
P-
'5
P-
18
P-
24
P-
27
P-
32
P-
34
P-
38
P-
40
P-
4»
P-
4»
Veneris, 31° die Julii, 1835.
Mr. William Green
• p. 42
p. 44
p. 54
p. 72
p. 76
p. 78
p. 78
P- 79
p. 85
T
\
\ ' ]
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Jovis, 19* die Martii, 1835.
SIR JOHN r.YN(i, IN THE CHAIR.
Robert Jf'illiam Hay, Esq., called in; and Examined.
1. YOU are Dmier Secictary of State of the Colonies, are yon notr~I am.
2. Will yon inforni the Connniltce what steps have been taken liy the (iovern-
ment to cany into elVecl tlie reconinK luiation^ of the ("onnnittee on Colonial
Military Exptndituie?— The Conimiltee are aiia'.e that the i^reater part of these
reconnmiulutions relate to pnispectise rediietions, svhieh ajiply, in most instances,
to distant qnarters of the world. All that eonid he done, therefore, in most cases,
was to send ont provisional instrnctions, and I nnderstand the Treasury have
recently issued a iMinnte calling the attention of the departments under llu ir
control, to the Kesolntions uhich relate to the dilVerent hranelu's i)f the piihlic
service. As far as relates to the deparlnienl of the vSicretary of State, I may
state to the Committee, taking the Uesohilions in the order in >vhieh they stand,
that «ilh reliience to the Eilth, an arraniiemint has been made at (iilaaltar, \»hich,
althontih not preci>elv enjoined, yet is in the spirit of this Resolution. 'I'he in-
spector of health has recently cume home in a state of heallli w hich renders it
unlikely he "ill he able to rcimn, and the liciitenant-iio\ernor has been instnieted,
ill case of a vacancy occnrrinj:, lo revert to the former piaetier, by whieh the
charue ot in-peetin;: the (luaranline was kit lo tiie senior medical otlieer of the
•laiiiMtn. li\ the Ninth he>ulutiun it is recommended, that tiic present amount
(it loree in the Ionian lslan(l> should be diniini.>lied by one regiment, whenever the
military dclences of I'orhi hlinulil be completed. 1 have to >tate on tiiis point,
that since the last mettinj; of this Connnittee an enmineer olllcer ot expi rienee and
great local knowled,L;e ba'^ been sent ont to Corlu to report upon the extent to
which the nnlitary works there ought to he carried, and on the amount of the
iliture exptnse: that report is now under the consideration uf the (iovernment.
Rut in the meaniime it mav be riiiht that I should inlorm the Conuuittie, as it is
a measure which will ad.a'nce the object which iheir Kesolulion IkuI in view, that
the Lord Hiuii Connnisr-ioner who is going out to the hmam Islands has been
insliuetcd to 'organize an Ionian battalion in the islands: into the details of the
scheme I cannot enter, bteause the measure has only very recently been decided
upon ; ol couise it will not have the ellict of tacilitating any immediate reduction
01 the forces in that (piarier. W'itii regard lo tlu Tenth lUsoluiion, I presume it
is known to the Committee that .Majur-gentral Sir IIov»ard Douglas, \«ho is going
ont to the Ionian Islands as Lord High Commissioner, has also been appointed to
the command of the troops. The stall in that quarter is also to be rcdnced to
the scale ucomnundrd bv the Connniltic. In eontormity with the object aimed
at in the 'lliirteenlh Resolution of the Connnittee, a pioposilion was last year made to
the Ionian uovernment to counuute for a gi\en sum the vaiious charges whicii they
have paid hitlieito under ditVcrent heads for the nnlitary protection ol the islands.
The agrcinient bv which this eonmnHalion is to be etVeelid, has not as yet I ren
finally" coucluded, but liie suia to be puid by the luuiuii ji,overiinient will
o.ii. B probably
RuUrl rrm. ffay,
I'^sq.
19 March 1835.
I
Hn/iDl II m.
I'j Mai ell 183
il
2 MW'UTRS Oy RVlDKMCi: HF-FOllK SF.f.KCT COMMITTEE
Hm/, Drobahly be 3;,.noo /. a ytuir, anil dn Hppropriutioii lie brouijlit niiniinllv iiiidcr the
iTvision of Parliament. Uitli leijanl to the 'rnintii tli Iksohilioii, ii'is ri^llt that
I shoiilil oli-crve, that at the time »viin> tlic Coiiimitlce last sat it (Upeiidcd ii|)()ii
the icMilt ot' a rcteroiice to the i>l,uul wliftJKi' a re>;iiiu'iit could not l)e dispensed
"ith iVoni Ceylon. It li.in been lound inipossihle to reduce the force; for, indc-
|)endent of the ordinary duties of the islmid, n de^jree of discontent has hcen
created anions some classes in tlic island liy the almiition of forced lahour, which
made it inexpedient to uithdraw any part of the fon'e. I am not aware that there
ore any other points advert, il to in the Ilesolutions upon wliich 1 have anything
fur'her to state.
,;. Wiuit is the order in which it is proposed to examine the !{eturns which have
been prepared for tiie (.'omniitlee r It woidd be most convenient to tlie Colonial
Ollice, aial would not, 1 appn hend, be otia rwi>e to the Committee, that the
colonies should be taken in the followiu;; order : in the first instance, the Australian
provinces; from thence to proceed to tla' North American, and then to conclude
with the West Imlies and the .Mauritius. The Returns are all to be found in the
Appendix to the Report of the Commillee, and of course it will be for tiie Com-
mittee to surliest, si Id any additional Returns be wanted.
4. 15e uood enouizli to iuforui the Connnittec the nauu's of the j^nvemors. tbrmer
and prt sent, their s;ilaries and emohunenls - Captain Phillip was the lir.st governor
ot New South Wales, wlio went out in 17SS, and who appears to have enjoyed
a salary of 1,000/. a year ; to him succcdled Captain Ilimter, with a salaiy of
l,Soo/. a year; the next i;overnor was Captain King, appointed in 1 Soli, with
a salary ot J.ooo /. a year; Ca|,tain llligh was the next, enjoyin;^ tlie same salary ;
to him .succeeded Cohaiel M'Quarrie, in iSio, who enjoyeil'lhe same salary, -.vitli
appointinentson the stalV, ainountiuji to aliove i.oou /. a year; the next jjovernor
was Sir 'I'liomas Hrisbane, appointed in iSji, whose salary did not exceed J.ooo/.
a year in the outset, but who was also appointed majur-,i;eneral on the stall'; his
salary vva.s increased in tiie year 1SJ4 to ^,,-,00/., vutii an additional salary from
the Colonial I'uiul, makiui^ in the whole ..|,S(ii /. ; to iiim suceeede . (reneral
Darliiiir, in 182-;, whose pay and emoluiiients altofjietlier amounted to ,'),;5()3 /. ;
and when General IJourke, the present i;overnor, went out, bis salary was iixcd at
."i.ooo/. per annum, without any other enioluiiRiils what.soever.
5. lias the uovernor a house pro\ided lur him : — There is a liovernnieiit-iiouse
in Sydney, but it has been lor .some years past in such a dilapidated slate, i.'iat the
;j;oviriior has been oiiliyd to reside at Paramatta, wiiieli is ili miles distant
from Sydney, (ieiiend Darling went out to Ni.vv South Wales in 1S.J.5; he was
empowered to take measures for repairing this Iioum , 1 r in liuild a new one ; but
it ajipeared to uiui that otiier |)ublie buililiiiiis were niae ui gently required, and
tiny wen' nndedaktn in piLkrence; he residiiii^ out of the town. ' Since (ieiieral
lioirke uenl out, il Iki'^ been deeiiled that the iioveriimeiU-house shall be eom-
inenced, lor tlie baildiiiif of which, necessary estimates have been sent liouie, and
at^reed upon by the Treasury, the fuiuls arisinu tVom the sale of land in the town.
Tlie (.'overnor will tlu 11 i;ive up the le-ideiice al Paramatta, and be coiilined to one
bouse in town.
(>. lias not the novernor abo 2()2 /. a year, unattached pay ?— Yes, be has.
7. Then the arrungeineut tiuit he is to have :,,(h)(i/. a year for bis allowance,
does not exelude his unattached pay as a fieneral otiicer .^--No ; in no case.
8. Von do not eoiisiikr. ihdi, that the arraiii^einent lias been departed from : —
In no d( i;ree.
<). How is the rent of liie bouse at Pariinatla paid for "r - It is (iovcmiM.t
property, and will be (iiypo.sed of fur public purpdse^.
10. Xou, will \()u answer the same fpiestion witii re«p(ct to the ;,'overiiors of
Van Diemurs Land?— The lirst lieiileiiaiit-siovernra- was Colonel Collins, who
was apponiled in the year l.S(i4, with a salary of .(-,0/. a year. Colonel Colhii.s
died ill 1810, and was siKceedeil by Lieuteiiaiil Lord, Captain Murray, Colonel
Greils, until Lieut.-Col. l)a\ey as^unii d tlie l';ov( rnuieui in iSi j. Duriiiij the
greater part ol this period, a s aiaiy of 4-,o/. pir aniaiin was also provided on
the Pailiamentarv K.^tiiiuiti s, lor anoila r lieulen,iiit-;;o\irnor at Port Dalrvniple,
on the iiorlheiii side of ll;e i.^l.iiid. (_.'(, haid Sijiel r. as appointed uoveriicr in' 1S17,
with a salary of Soo/, a yen', which in .laiuiary iSjj, uas laistd t(; i,.-,n"/., and
in 1NJ4 to -S'lOo/. Cdhaiel Artiuir, tlir present uowiiiur, u,is appoinieil 111 I1S24,
will; a s:il:iiy iif i.v.d/., wiiieli in iSj;„ ua.s ' rai:s; il lo ■-,:,uuL, wiiicii is hi.,
prL.-eiil salaiy. Culoni I Arlhnr enjoys no otiier eniolinnent, ( Acept an aliowaiiee
ill
t
!
1
ON MILITAIIY KSTAIJLISIIMKNTS IN THE Cor.ONIKS.
;i
t
'
I
in lifii of forngo I'or three liorses, iiiul provisions in i<in(l, and un iilioHaiice of fuel RuUri lim. ll„v,
I Hpi.i tlicnd llic uliolc regiment Ims by
and light. 1 Imve thus '-'"en the lij-t of tiic governors of Vim Dieiiieii's l.umi.
n. Jjy the licUuii^ ol the tll'cciivf tone in the AuitrMJian pvovinceH in lS;],j,
it iippems that the total was 2,107, whicli is 30.} less than the preeediny yt'ar ?—
It i.s so.
12. (.'an yon aeeount for that diiiiinution r — The amount of troops in the
Austriilimi [irovinces is subject to tluetuation, as from thence, ut certain periods, the
endiarkation of a reijitnenl for India takes place.
1;}. Sinci' tliese lletunis were printed, an additional force has he(Mi ap|)lie(l for,
and has lieen i;iven to New Soiitii Wales; can you state the reason for that? —
On his arrival in the colony, (ieneral Ilourke made such earnest representations to
the Secretary of State, as to the necessity of an increased toree, that in Decemhcr
1 8;j,} it was decided to send out another reiiiment, ;mil the -,oth hiis aeeordiiijfly
been tiispatehed there hy successive detachments. The wliole amount of tile force
in the Australian provinces is about 2,S()4 uien.
14. Tliat includes the whole? — Ye>
this time reached the colony.
IT). Can yon };ive any intormation to tiie Committee respectinj; the force whicii
is settled as the body-;iiiard at Sydney f-Tlie jiovernor's body-guard was institute(l
by Capt. Kin;; in 1801), and consistetl orii^inaliy of seven soldiers, who Hero
taken Irom the ordinary military force on tlie sj)ot, lo whom was j^ranted the
dillerence between their regimental pay and the p.iy ot dragoons ; this increased
pay and the expense of tiieir cloliiinij being ciitirged upon the colonial revenue.
Tlie Secretary of State, at a later period, objected to this guard, and he was
induced to allow its CDiilinuance upon the representation tiiat a certain nmnber of
niounted men v\as necessiuy as expresses, and to attend the govenmr \\\nn\ his jom--
niesinto the interior; and General Huurke was instructed, when heaent out in iS ji,
to consider liie propriety of reducinj^ the governor's body-guard, and bis attention
was called to the sul)JLet l)y the late Secretary of State. It appears, however, by
11 despatch whicli w,is received in December last from (Jeneral Hourke, tliat lie had
taken measures for abolishing the body-guard, and fcjr substituting mounted orderlies
in lieu of tliat force; but ks it appears that this arrangement will not be attended
with any economy, instructions have been sent out to Cieneral Bourke to "ct rid
of that force altogether.
16. 'l"he mounted orderlies? — ^es ; whieli have been employeil as substitutes
for the governor's [)ody-guard.
17. What is the amount of the governoi's body-guard? — At one period it
amoimted to 12 men and two seijeants, at an expense of 430/. a year.
iS. Wiiat was tlie amount in the year iS;j4? — 'I'he exjunise of the mounted
orderlies, we lind by the last accounts to amount to 4.'ii)/.
III. The amount of force wiiieli you have stateii, includes the troops at Van
Diemen's Land and Swan Uiver al.-o, does it? — It has done so hitherto, but it is
now intended, the troops Mliich will be re(|uired lor the service of Swan Uiver
should be detached from St. Helena, to which island a regiment is to be dispatched
in the course ol a very short time.
20. (ieiural lidurke nported that lie had not sulVicient force to send the troops
from Swan l{iver to New South Wales, did lie not? -lie ilid so; but Colonel
Arthur lelt more immediately the inconvenience arisiiifj Irom that, because the
^wan Uiver detachment was .>eiit from \'an Diemen's Land, and the communi-
eatioii betuc'ii tliuse points is very uiilVe(|iunl and dillieult to accomplish.
JI. Can the actual distribution of tlie troops be Imiiished to t!ie Committee?
— \'es, up to the 1st ol .May 1S34.
■J-', ^\'llat penal settlements are now ke|>t up in our .Au.-tialian colonies ? — Tiiey
have been reiluced totwii; luimely, Norfolk Island, and what is called Taslani
I'eiiiusula, in \'aii Diemen's Land.
23. The amoiml of force lor New South Wales has always been of the same
description of troops, legular troops, has it : —Yes, with the esciption tli.ii, on
two occasions, veteran companies were raisul lor that particular service, but tliey
have iKjt been lound to answer, and have l.icn disbanded.
J4. U !iat IS tne mounted police at New tSoutli U ales y— The mounted police
was originally established by Sir Tliomas Hrisbane, to check the outi.igt ,s of the bush-
rangers ; the poli<e loiee is necessarily very 1 iige, and is paid bv the eoicjhy.
->•"• /■ ; 1-.. What
E-q.
nj Miiiili iH.'f).
■M
4 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE HEFOUE SELECT COMMFrrEE
iii.ui H'li). Ilfi'i, 'i^- \^ lii>t is the uinuiiiit of tlie force : -'I'licy Mtrc iiicrc.iscti hy (ifiiiinl
F.si|. Duiliiii til loi) liiLii.
• jd. Tluiv is lU) force of thiit (Icscripiion in Vim Dicmcn's I.aiul iit all, is
ly Miiitli i8j5. there? — TIrtc is no inoiimcii pohct! in lli.il i-htnd.
J7. Wh.it is the ainoiiiii of tiie cdloiiiiil n venue of Ni!vv South Wales niul
Van l)i( nun's Land? — I'he uveraize in Nc»v Sinilh Wales is Ijo.ooo/. u year,
unci that of Van Dieincirs Lund ul)uut 80, 000/. u year.
:jS. Ls that the fjross amount or tlie ne» amount ' -Tin; net revenue.
29. Is tlitre any iiiiiiliu ? — 'I'here is none; the |)r>)jret of raising a corps vois
snu^ie^ted some years a;;o, and the linvcruor uus directid to report upon tiie
pruclicahilily of tliesciieine; but tiie seilU'is were stated to lie so un«iNin;{ to
leave tiieir farms, in cuiisequt-nce uf the iunviet pupuhitiun, that tlie .scheme
Hent no luriiier.
30. Is there anv povcrnmcnt ddit in i iiher of the colonics? — None whatever.
31. Are troops rei;iilarly .sent out «iili the convict.^ f — The force is iicpt u|) hy
occasional detachments in e.icli C(jnvict ship.
3.>. Will you state to the Conimiitee the population of New South Waifs?
— The popultitioi. of New South Wales is upwards of ("10,000, of which mure
than :2^. 000 are convicts, aceordiii!,' to the last census in 1833. In Van Die-
men's Laud there has been no cen?us suiee 1 8,]o ; the population of that island
is upwards of 30,000, of which more than 1 J.ooo are couviets.
33. Do j'V-i conceive the increase to have been very considerable in Van
Diemen's Land since? — I should think so; the number of emijirants has been
coiisi(leral)le in both colonies,
34. lias the iiiiiiiber of convicts, accordiu;» to your belief, increased or de-
creased, havins.' relation to tlie en'iie populatiiai .- — II has inerea-^ed by a late
regulation, by which tiie hulk>. sysliin has bieii aholisiied.
3.> So as to occasinn a more rapid nicreuse in the convict population than in
the otiier portion of the popul.ition ? —Yes.
3(i. Tliat new renulalion vvitii respect to the hulks has not operated, witli
resjiect to the t«o nuiiiheis \ou have liiveii, has it?— No; it has no ri'iereiice to
tliose Ueturns, because neither Uetiirn is l.itir than 1S33.
37. Can yon iutorm the Committee what is the nuiuner of eniiurants that have
been sent out by the Cio\ernment, of late years? — The numlier of ()ersons who
have l)een sent out sinei the loruialion ol the Euiij^ralion Couiuiissiou, in the year
1831, upon lo.iii, ir. 3,400, and ol unmariied liniaks, sent out by the (ioverument,
2,il,'> for tiie same period.
38, That is f^tiieraJly to New Sontli Wales and \'an Dienien'a Lr.nd, is it? —
To the Australi.in piovinees : the Custoni-liou?e Returns t(M' tlie years 1833 and
1834 make a total ol" (i.Suj, l)nt from that must he deducied some portion of the
first class Hluiin I liavi: uieiitioiied ; tho-e lli.it jio out in tiove; niiient vessels au-
not reckoned in the Cust>)m-hoiise Returns.
30. With relereiice to tlie auiouiil ol the Cianuiissiriat force, do tin y not pi()vid<'
for the convicts as well as the troops? — They have to piovido for the niainti nance
of the co'ivicts ai o,
40. Is tlitre anv medic, il .-i.ilV ( s'abli.shment ? — No, there is not.
41. Is there any oKiiiance e-t.il)li-limeat :-- .\o ; hut il is ()iiiposed shortly to
send out an (jidnance ollieer to take care ol the piiiilic bnildinu:s. I'he i.iK; Hoard
of Ireasury .-uiijiesied that •J;',,0(io /. ptraiinnui .-liouid l)( tikin froin the colonial
revenue ol New South Wales, and rj.uoo /. pi r aiiiiuin liom thai ot Van Dienieiis
J.aiid, to assist in defiaviii;; the eliar;fes cnniiretid «itli tiie emiviet (>stahh>hment,
of which tlie chief are the police, the uaol-, and other siuiil.ir piililie buildini;s,
and the colonial marine, wliicli in employed in eonveyin;^ toiivicl-. noiii one part
of the coast to another.
4J. Is there anv iiit rea.ie or decrease of the staff contem|)lated at the Colonial-
office, in New South \\ ales ? There are no staff appointments there which would
admit of reduction
Lieutenant-General Ralph Duriiug, called in ; and Kxaniiutd.
Lifiit.-r.pn. 43. TIIE (-'ommiltec understand that you have lately held the novernmerit of
J{-///)'i Darliiif;. Kcw .South Wales? — Yes ; 1 was relieved at the end ol the year 1831 ; 1 lelt on
the ■22 1\ of Ortiihcr jSji,
44. How nianv years did yon hold that government? -Very luurly six yeai^ ;
within two mouths ol that [leriod.
4v I'"
ON MILITARY RSTADLISMMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
a
4,';. Do you reniembor what wum tlu; atnount of re^ulur force at the period Ht i,i»iif..<j#i..
which you left the colony? — I havti j^it .1 stattiiiiuiit here ; I think tlic garrison of /.'.//yv/i Dmlmg.
New South W. lies consi.stril of al)oul i,;]oo mtn, rank and file. The military
conuimnd ixtcniieil also to Van DifUKii's Land. loMi.nli iK;i:,.
4I). Are tli(!y not the 8ainc ({uvcrnmLiit P — Nu ; I had a distinct conunisslon, as
giivurnor, for each.
47. Do you consider, at the time when yoii came away, that the force then was
suflicient, and ns larjic as was refjuired ?— No, it certainly was not.
4S. Had you applied for an increase? — No, I had not; hut '.he Licutenant-
fiovirnor of Van Dm men's Land had applied repeatedly ; and I received an inti-
uiaiion from home, si^rnifyincr, that it would occasion great inconvenience the
suu(liu<; additional troojis, and d(;siriui{ that 1 would assist him, as far as 1 could,
and 1 did so ; for on one occasion, mIicii he was ol>li|;ed to take the field, in conse-
quence of an irruption of the natives, 1 sent him a large detachment from my own
garrison.
4(). The force, durinj» the period that you hold the government, varied from
time to time, did it not? — it must have done so, from the nature uf circunistances
in New South Wales.
/JO. You went to New South Wales in the year 1 824, did you not ? — No ;
I arrived there in Ueceuiber 1825.
51. Hy a llcturn now before the Conuniltee, the number of troops in the year
i8j,', appears to base been i,'28o, and when you (piitlcd it, which was in the year
1831, it appears to have amounted to 2,.5()8?— I think that must be a mistake.
/ii. Can you explain the distribution of the troops, so ts to make out the
difterencc between the number of i,j8() and 2,. ^^S, which appears in the Return
before the Committee ?— It appears that J.^tiS was the number on the istJanuaiy
i8ji ; tiut the 57tli retjiment was then under o.ilers, and had proceeded to India
Leiore I left New Soutii Wales, which was the end of October 1831. According
to the Memorandum wliieh I have here, there were 2,049 altogeiber, when 1 left
the command ; 74(), rank and file, of that number being stationed at Van Diemen's
Land. This ajtpears by the Memorandum which I took from a Return yesterday
at the Adjutant-nenerars oHice.
,'',3. That was the last y^ar yon were there, was it? — It was at tiic time of my
(iepartme trom New Soutii Wales.
.'',4. Docs that include some little local detachments? — It includes a com[)any of
vetirans, since di>b.uiik'd. There was also a detachment belonging to regiments
in India, whirii had been sent out us a guard over convicts.
."j-,. What was the body-guard ? — The body-guard consists of a non-commis-
sioned officer and six men ; at least that was the lunnber in my time. The body-
guard and mounted jiolice are formed from the corps composing the garrison.
.",(). Can you stale the cause of ti)e great variation whieli arpears in the amount
of force r ^\ ill yi>u inform the Committee how it is occasioned ?— The regiments
are sent to New Soutii Wales intermediately on their way to India, by small
detachments, 30 men, as a guard with eacii convict-shi|), and thence to India in
larger boilie>, one third of a regiment at a time.
,'57. Will \oi: slate how they proceeil from thence to India? — The orders were,
thai when the hall of a regiment lurnishing guardsfor the convict-ships should have
ai'iived, the re^jiuienl which had been the longest in the conunaud should be sent
on to India, liut, from the insufficiency of the garrison, it was never in my power
to send away more tiian a tliird of a regiment at once. The change of troops is
tiierefore almost constantly gnin^ on, anil the strength of the garrison is con-
sc(|Ui'nlly tluelualing.
,58. Are there many detachments from New South Wales besides what go to
Van Diemen's Land ? — A great many detachments are employed in the interior
and on the coast of New South Wales.
,",9. Are there many besides ? — ^No ; there is no island dependant on Ne*^
South Wales but Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island.
60. What are the interior stations where dctaclnnents are placed ^ — They aie
very numerous ; « hen I came away tiiere were about i 8. By the Return I saw
yesterday that nuudier appears to have been reduced a little.
61. The Swan River was n^t founded when you came away.' — Yes, it was ;
but it was totally independent oi New Soutii Wales, altliougli tlic gurriion «:;s
taken from one of the corps under n)y connnand.
on. jt 3 ^i- Did
6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
I.ifut. Gen.
Hnl,,l, Ihnliug.
Kj Maich 18 J,-,.
G2. Did you include tlic Swan River among those detachments ? — No ; that
detachment was sent o\it direct t'roin Enj;hmil.
(i,]. Are vmi aware that within the hist year or two tiiere has been an incn;ased
demand tor detachments in the Sv\an River <?olony r — No, I am not.
()4. In point of tact, out of tlie 2,040 troojjs, did yon inchide any detachments
at Swan River ? — No, none.
6,> Was there any attempt made durinsj tlic t .le that yon were there for the
purpose of embodying any mihtia force? — Xo, tliere was not; but Lord Bathnrst
menlioiuii to me, wnon I was going out, tiiat it had been suggested by a gentleman
tlien in l'"ngian(i, Major M'Arthur, an.! his lordsliip desired that I vvouhl consider
it, and lot iiim know if I thought it at all advisable ; it certainly appeared to me
not to be advisable.
6(>. Y(»u do not consider it desirable, then, to form any local force, do you .' —
I siionld sav not, from the comj)osition of the population of tiie colony.
67. What aie the peculiar features which yon refer to in tiie population of the
colony? — From there being so many convicts wiio are servants to the settlers. If
a militia were- tbrmed, and the settlers in the course of iluty taken from their
homes, their convict servants, being free from control, woukl in many ca^es plunder
and pe- haps niiu them during their absence. The constant residence of tiie settlers
on their pio|)erty is an object of great importance in such a colony.
(is. It ap()ears from tlie po|)ulation Returns before the Connnittee that about
two-filths are convicts, and the remainin'' three-lifths settlers r— -The remainin<x
three-tifths are not all settlers ; lor ln^tance, a very large proportion are children
under 12 vears ol age. I am speakiny of tmbodyiiii; the settlers anil em|)loving
them as militia. Everv settUr having a luimber of coin id •-ervants, the probabi-
lity is they "oulil |)lijnder their masters" jiroperty, and conseipieully abscoiul, which
v\oulil occasion at least great confusion in the colony.
(it). Will you look over this Return and see it there is any appointment that you
think can be dispensed with, iiaving regard to the public service i — I should say,
certainly not ; 1 think the stall in \eu South Wales reipiire^ being increi'sed.
70. Looking at that papi-r and ciMUparing it with the siali of New South A\'ales
duriu'j; the time you were there, is there a diminulion or an increase? — It seems to
be precisely the same. Here is an oHicer, Lieutenant-colonel Morrisett, who is
styled commandant; the fact is, the situation of commandant of a penal settlement
is pun ly ol a civ il nature, it being a place of conlinement, 'vhere prisoners under
color.ial .'>entences more ispecially are sent. Colonrl Mini isetls salary was paid
in the same manner as the expenses incurred on aeeouiit ol the convict I'stablish-
inents generally.
71. It is put down as paid out of the I'ai liauii'ntary grant"-— That is a grant to
provide lor the expenses coiisiipient on the traiis|)ortalion of convicts.
72. As regards the number of ollicirs, is there any sil'ialion that could be
rediiceil ? — Certainly not ; I think they are on tlie lowest [)ossihle hcale.
73. Is there any thing else you can suuijesl to the Committee upon any of these
points: — I have a paper here which I have draun up, conlainiiiy some sugges-
tions, which, if the Committee will allow me, I will put in.
ll'licJolln'ciiiLi; I'djjcr n-(i.s l/icii Jiiil in mid vcad.\
MIC.MOHAN 1)1 -M res|)i'i;iiiij5 die Stai i and (J vniiisON of \i'ir South llu/t's.
'1111, lroij|)s employed to f;iiriisuii New Sdiiih W ales :ire di-persed over a very eonsiiler-
al)le exleiit 111 eoiiiiU y, ami oc< iipy imt ie-s ilmii Hi ililieieiit sialioiis. 'I'liis iieies^-uily
iiiviilves a liieiil ileal o( ileUiil, anil iieeasioiis a ^n..it deal <il e()m's|)iniilenee. In die
lali nor the nlnf of die Hoops is perindK al, yeiirly.
Al die penal sel.leinelils and slaliciiis, Ui vvhieli die ecinvii's are selil by the selilenee iil
Ihe eiiiiils ot pistiee, llie cliailue of the iiiiups i, ( iMisiaiilly t;iiinj( (in, aU pummels lieint^
-(111 iiiidir esenrl ; m lliese eseoris anive a (iiii|iin linnau' iinnilier ol die stiliheis « hci have
lieeii l(iiii;isi at die slaliiiii are returned In head-ipiarlei s, t\ iili ilie |irijoilt rs w hose seiili iiees
have e.\pir< d.
The III ad-ipiarleis nl one re'.;illieiit is slaluined al I'aianialta, id miles lioill Sydney ;
and ah<illier leumanl is iiiiplnved al \ an Kieinin's Land, Midi vvliieli enloiiy iheri is
a ediislalil ei)ries|iiindeiue, p.irtly in eniiseipienee ol llie j;ii,inis aniviii'^ vmii the eoiiviels,
"llieli lieloim to enrps in .\( « Siiiitli Wales, In m^ landed llieie, and vaiioiis oiIht mailers
liilsiiii.' Ilia (11 liu' iiuiiiie 11! ill) eiillHIiaM'i.
Tlie j;eiii Nil oideis issiji d al .\ev\ .■s.mdi \\ ,iies art' eiinmiimiealed to \ all jtieiiieii'i
Land, anil imm die peeiiliar li'tine ol liie euiiimand lliise orders aie iiiiiiu rmis. In adili-
lioil III wliieli, llie |i(iiiidieal iieliiiiis iilllie liiops ill Van Dii men's I, mil ale einliiidied III
ih'' g-iK-ral III luiiis id the eiiiiiiiiaiid, vvliieli ;iie in ide up iiiiindily at die head-.piaileis in
.New
ON MILITARY KSTAHLISIIMENTS IN TIIK COLONIES.
Ntnv Soiilli Wall's, and forwarded to tliu Secrelary of State for tlie Colonics, llu' Horse Liout.-Gpii.
Gii,ir(U and llic War Olbci'. l!<iliili Durling.
It is evident that tlie duties iin|)os('(l l)y tlic aforcnoinn arraiiu'cnents and details, must ,.
oceasioii as uiueli business as any one individual ean |iro|ii'riy allcud to; still, for all tliese jy Miinli 1835.
duties, wliieli iiieliide those of holli the Adjutant and (,!uaiterniaster-<j;e(ieiars l)e|iartinent,
there is hut one olHeer, a major of hri'^ade, who hisides has to atieud to the duties of the
Girrison of Svdiiey, parading; and superintendiui; iiuuuioiis daily auards, the various duties
of the town, &C. hIhiIi, Irom the eouiposiiion of the |)c)pulaiioii, a larije proportion being
fonvii IS an(i ih'ir deseeiulants, eaniiot liul recpnre iiiueh personal exirtion, and occasion
no little anxiety of ininil.
1 am, iherehne, of o|)inion that the ellicienl and proper discharge of the several dutie-, (o
be perforuied by theSialfof New South Wales would retpiire,
1 Assistant Military .Secretary.
1 Deputy Adjutant or Deputy Quartermaster-general lor the general duties of the
cuintiiand.
1 Commandant, for the (iarrisoii ol' Sydney.
1 Town or fiarrison .Adjutant lor the duties of Sydney.
In apporlionini: a Staff to any particular eoinniiind, the nalnri' of the command should
be eonsideicd. Tiie extent of tlu' .Siatl' eannol always he determined by the iuMMh<r of
troops employed; local ciicuni--taneea -.iinuld Ih' taken into aceoiml. Out of a population
ol'tio, OHO persons, at uhiclilhat of New Sonih W ales m.ay be stated in niund mimlicrs,
according to the cen>us taken in iS;;3, more than one-third appear to be aclual convicts,
men iiiuh r senteiU'C ; and (i\e-sixths of the whole number are probably convicts, or the
descendants ot convicts.
As the convicts are dispersed over the colony, and the worst characters emploved in
large gangs in making and repairing the public road-, it bei'omes necessary to spread the
troops and occupy various slaiauis, with a view of keeping the prisoners in snl)ji'ciiou.
Several of the slalions are much more than too miles, in the interior, from head-(|uart< rs ;
while others are accessihle only by water. The imilliplicalion of stations and posts adds
malerially to the duties of the Statf; that is, a large body of troops, when concentrated,
may not ie(iuire a more extensive Siall' than a much smaller body which ;s wiilely
disjiersed.
1 would also respec'fnllv submit the ex|;e(lieney of appointing a Staff Surgeon and two
assistaii's to New South \\ iiU's. 1 apprehend ihere is no command of that magnitude
without an (ifiicer of rank of liie General Hospital Slaii'. New South Wales and Van
Diemen's Land are undoubtedly liotli very healihy stations, Ijut llie (fispersion of ihe troops
renders it im(io-sible tor the Uejiineii'al .Mi<lical .s>iali' to atieiid to ibe detachments of iis
own corps; and it <loes not appear (ini-isient that the nndicai utiieers ot tour different
rciiiiiients should act iiidependeiiilv, without any immediate chief or liead. 'I'liey shimld
be under the contrid of a supirior, « hose duly H «ouiil be to ri'pcui to the gcuc r il ollieer
in coniinand, rather than leave liim to supeiiniend details, of wliieii lie cannot be a compe-
tent judge, or have time to att> nd to.
iijili Match i!S35. A*. ]).
\. /{._-'|'bc scale I have proposed does not exceed the Stall" allowed for colonies
s.imdarlv circiinisianced. The Cape ot (iood Hope, for iiisiaiici', wliiili, from Kxal circum-
stances, is perhaps iiuae on a par with New Seiilli Wales than ;my other command. At the
Cape the follow iiig Staff appears to be employed : m/.,
1 Assistant Military .''I'cretaiy.
1 Deputy Quartermaster-general.
1 Major of lirigade.
1 Acting ditto.
1 Town Ma)(M.
1 Cominandant, ut -().•.. pit diem.
;? Ditio, at smaller salaries.
I Di'piilv Inspector-general of Hospitals.
;, .Assistant Surgeons.
A Comiu.ancl.int is as uecessarv at Sydiu v as he is at Cape Town, as the (io.cnior cannot
conduct or alieiid to ihe details oi' the garrison of' the touii.
R. I).
74. l)iil tlif regiiiiriits ixoiiiii t'toiii New Smith Wales to Imiiii on botlilv of l)y
(It tachiiieiMs ;■' — Not liciiiily, its it was tiivt f in my |nn\er, us 1 liav(! stiitctl, tu
detach so ial'M' it iuiii:l)cr us 11 uliole legiineiit at once; i tlit'ieloiu sctll alioi.^
a third of a ii ^iiiient in\av at a liiiie, ami as oilier miards ariiveti Iroiii Kiejilanil
avaihil iiiysell of stiili ailditittii to tlie jiarrisoii lo lufwaril tin; rciiiaitider ot the
col |1s to Iiuliti.
7,",. W itli regaid to the comitiissaiiat, do yon coiisiiler it lillicr snllicieiit lor tlie
pttrpose Of itioic than is tuitssaivf — llie coiiiitiissariat cstiibli^lniictit alwavs
Miipi aiid to nie to be vt rv lafi
liml
tllect
.i|i|)ointiii:^ a
lioar
took I vciy possilik; pains to ii'iince il ;
(I on one oectisioii, tiiit
1 1
It .statu
\\lnn i;oiiiL! tiito II
0.1 t.
as very ititicli stifpnsial to
cxaiiiitialioii, lliat llicfc wcic .several tons ot
1: 4 accotttits
8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Lieut.-Gen.
Kalpli Darling.
I'i March 1835.
I.ieiit.-Cen.
Rn/pfi Darliiif^.
24 March 1835.
accounts and vouchers for examination wiiich were put away in a room ; yes, as
I understood, several tons hy measurement.
76. Did that board report upon the state of the commissariat to you? — Yes,
they did, and I sent the report home ; and I ihink that the 'JVeasury, in conse-
quence, dispensed with those accounts being examined in New South Wales, and
desired that they should be sent home. Their examination on tiie spot would
have interfered so much with the other duties of the department, tiuit the greatest
inconvenience must have resulted from it ; in siiort, it could not have been effected
without a large augmentation of the establisliment.
77. Your opinion was, when you left the colony, that the commissariat esta-
blishment was not disproportionate to the duties it had to pertoi ui "—1 cannot
say it was, presuming that the individuals employed discharged their duty with
diligence. It supplies all the convict establishments, as well as the military, and
therefore their dutif?s are very extensive.
78. That is from the number of stations? — Yes; there were about 18 mili-
tary posts when I came away, besides the head-quarters, and a considerable num-
ber of convicts to victual, wlia are dispersed in gangs all over the colony.
79. Would not their duties be increased by the constant arrival and depar-
ture of troops r— They would.
80. Do you recollect what was the number of deputy-assistant commissary-
generals you have had ? — It varied a good deal ; first there was a smaller number,
then I think the Treasury adopted a plan, as a measure of economy, of bringing
several deputy-assistants from the half-[)ay and employing them, instead of per-
sons who did not belong permanently to the service.
Maids, 'J 4" die Murtii, 183j.
SIR JOHN inN(;, IN THE C H A I H.
Lieutenant-General lialpli l)atTni;j;, called in ; and further Examined.
81. 1)(^ you wish to state anything in addition to your formir evidence? —
I should beg to explain the evidence I gave respecting Xorlolk Island. I was asked
whetlicr I had any ()l)servati<)iis to make with respect to the othceis enumerated in
a list which was shown to me, and as there was no sinn stated opposite to that of com-
mandant of Norlblk Island, it did not occur to me to say anything upon the subject.
1 wish to observe, that the otliccr w ho hild that situation, Lieut. -colonel .Morrisset,
an unattached oilicer, received a salary of (ioo /. a year. Now my opinion is, that
that appoiiitnunt may be very well (li-|)ens('d with, and that liie duties, as formerly,
can be perlormid bv the otiieer conimamlinL; the dttachnients, who received 10 ,y.
a day in addition to his military pay. Tlie duties are of a civil nature, and the
salary or allowance is paid from the money that is granted by Parliament for the
transjiort of convicts and tiie expenses attending tlie establishments, lor liieirsuper-
int<'nilencc and inaiiitenanee.
02. W \\\ vou have the gcjodness to explain the nature.' of the duties to wiiieh vou
refer? — To superintend the discipline and employment of the convicts who are
sent there under sentence of the courts.
S 5. .And you are of opinion tlial a mililarv otVicei- liable to be clumiied from time
to time, is a'- tit lor the pel lorinanee ol tli;it ihity as a lixed civil ollicer !-• — Vim ;
hhoiild an oliicei jiiovc unlit lor the eiiarge, the governor could remove him and
appoint another to the situation ; CoIoik 1 Morrisset «as unattached, and sent out
fr<jm this country as commissariat of Norfolk Island.
H4. You stated lit; lia<l since sold out: — Yes; and I believe the vacancy at
Norfolk Island h.is lUit been tilled u|).
85. And then fore tluaigh a military oilicer, he was to all intents and purposes
a civil superintendent .- — Yes ; but lieiiig a military otVuer, altiiough not helonijing
to the corps doing dntv in the inland, he had also the coiiiiiiand ot the troops
atationed th( re. .\ly opinion is, thai the two situations should he miilcd as iiere-
tulurc in tin.' senior officer ol tlie detachment ; tlii' dutii's of both would then lie
tnoic iidviinl,i<{»;ously performed,
So. The
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
9
yes, as
So. Iho
8(j. The question tlic Committee addressed your ultention to was, whetlicr you Lieut.-Gm.
tliouulit ii military otlicer, wiiose appointincnt was to command a detachment only, Hnlp/i Dar/irg.
and \\iio Wiib lial)lc lo be ciian<ic(l from time to time, was as tit to exercise those. ~ ' "
civil (hities as a person entirely devoted to it: — I think lie is ; tor if the governor "^ ""^"^ ' '^''^'
finds liim well f|ualitied foi t!ie situation he can retain him, it' not he can remove
liiin ; this cannot always conveniently he done in the case of a person receiving a
permanent appointment.
87. You think there is nothin<; in the duty which a military officer could not
transact? — No; the military oflicer at Moreton Bay, the other penal settlement,
pcrlornis hoth duties. It may not he irrelevant to add, that hy the proposed
arrangement, tluro uould he a savinjj of at least ;loo /. a year.
SS. And you propose that the officer eommandini: the detachment should '.'ave
an addition of 10. v. per diem to his jiay, in consideration of that duty r — Yes.
The May I acted was this : when the i)enal settlement at Moreton Bay, for instance,
was in its infancy, and the nnmher of convicts did not exceed .500, the allow-
ance to the otiicei- uas 10*. a day : when the numbers increased (and there were
occasionally i,(»()() there), the allowance was increased by the autiiority of the
Secretary ot State, to 300/. a year, '"'he duties are of a very arduous nature.
8t). \Vith relerence to the immense nnud)er of unsettled accounts which you
mentioned in your h/rmtr fvidmce wire in arrcar. anil which were sent nome to
Enizland, were- any means i fterwards taken to have the settlement of the accounts
n)ore reiiularr — Means \\ere taken hy mcieasing the establishment of the -lom-
missariat. When I went out, the ccmmissariat consisted ol one deputy, one
assistant, and six deputy assistants : it afterwards received an addition of an
assistant and 10 deputy assistants. 'J'liat was the estaldishment, both for the
store and account branclus ; and in c(in--e(|uence of its heinj^ so small, it became
imposi-ible to examine the accounts. As 1 stated in mv foimer examination, the
stations are very numerous, and the eonnnissariat have to victual and provide, in
every respect, both the militiuy and tlie convicts ; theretbre, from the insu'i'iciency
of the departuant, baviufj had onlv six deputy assistants, the accounts fell so much
in arriar, that they could n')t he exaniiiieii ; i! it had been attempted, tlie current
business ot the (lepartmenl must li.we been neuleetcd.
()o. Is the Committee to understand that the deputy assistants you adverted to,
all acted as clerks, and that they had no clerks besides ? -Ther-j were clerks
besides.
()i. ,\re \ou ot' opinion that anv decrease in the present strength of the coni-
niissaiiat may l)i; etleeied, with due regard to the public service.''— 1 should think
not ; pri suinuiL', as stateil in my lorniir examination, that the several individuals
employed are diligent in the discharge of their duty, of which, however, a governor
has no mean', of judgiuL'. 'liie connnissariat act under instructions troin the
treasury.
()j. tA)i Id the estal)lishment l)e decreased at anv one of the stations r — It is not
in my power to enter into the details of the several stations ; the officers, ixe. are
detached, as the head of tlie establishment linds it necessary lor the conduct of his
department.
g;5. M'hy is the s.rengtli of the commissariat so much greater in New South
A\'ales than it is in any of the other colonies? Because they have a considerable
niuuber ol convicts to provide for, as well as the military force ; several thousand
convicts.
04. Do the connnissariat provide lor the whole, or only a portion of the
convicts?— For the whole that are mider punishment, or have been returned to the
government bv the settlers. I do not knou whether it immediately applies to the
r)uestion, hut 1 wish lo observe, that tlure are a gieat many convicts who are
provided for by the goverinnent, who are not retained by it through choice, but
necessarily maintained as prisoners, under colonial sentence. ' have in my hand
lilt Third IJeport ol the ( ommissioners of Colonial Inquiry, on the Australian
Colonies, which sat in the year iSjvi, and I see there are nearly .'■),ooo convicts
stated to be attached lo (he government. There aie some observations connecteij
with this statement, fiom which it might he ielerred, that they were retained solelv
for the .service of the government, when in hict they were a very serious burthen
to it.
() i. \\ a~ i'mI a Cotninillee of the liuii.sc ul ('ominous? — No, a Special Coill»
mission ol Iii(|uiry, appoiiitiMl by (iovernmeul. .
0''. What IS the gnatest number of convicts von have known under charge of
c the
I
l.j'ui.-C.fii.
I(a//i/i iJar/iiifr.
S4 i\Jai<.li iS'jr,
\i> MINUTKS C)l EVIDRNCK I'.KFORE SFJJ'.CT COMMITTEE
the Gov.innunt o» Niw Soutli Wales ?— The statement in tliis P^port has re-
iercnce to the year 1829 ; it specifies 4 879, and I am not aware thai there was'
at any tnne a jjreater numhtr than this.
.)7. II. seems that there arc 4,879 convicts, and there are ^j, 107 rank and file
making' i.itogetiier m round nnmhns, al)out 7,000 persons, for whom the commis-
sariat has to provide ; liow comes it to l)e necessary thai there should he an ex-
penditure upon the commissariat department in Anstraiia of 16,4-,-)/., and tliat
there should L ■ 84 commissariats and clerks, uhile in Cevion, where there ar^-
4,82,'5 rank and hie, which is more than half tl:e uholc establishment for whici^i
the comm ssariat has to provide in Australia, the whole expenve of the commissa-
riat in Ceylon IS only ;5,699 /., and the whole nuinher of commissaries and clerks
17 r — I cm only observe, that the military posts and stations where the con-
victs are employed are very numerous both in New South Wales and \-an
Diemens Eand, and every station necessarilv occasions ailditional expense
\\ here there are 50 or tio convicts assembled, th"ev have to be victualled and pro-
vided tor. 'ihe convicts m)iler punishment, as stated in mv former evidence, are
kept in can^s ami \\or\e(l on the roads, iS,:c.
98. Is the providinir lor and provisioning a certain mimiier of convicts more
lahoiions to the cemmissarial than thai of makii).; provision tor reriments =— I am
not auare that it is. • ■
91. it appears that in the Ionian Islaiuls there are a ureal number of stations
and It IS stated that there are no cU rks, and but seven' commissaries to supply
-\()S3 rank and hie, yet the whole expense of the commissariat there is ■' 7 1 > / •
how <l(. you a.count tor the ditterence?— I cannot prtteud to accamt tor'h • 'my
s'liKial ai^u.r would be, that it is trom the nature of the colony and the (Inties
eoi:s,(|ueiitly ntjuired. in Australia ihe convicts are dispersed all over the
colonies. 'Ihey are employed in workin^-j-anas in every direction, as I have
stated, and tliey are to be supplied and provided for at the respective stations.
100. 1> It yunr opinion that the c.Histanl arrival and de|.artnre of troops and
the constant arrival ol convicts make it re<iuiMle to keep up so jai-e a commissariat
establishmeiil.— Ihese encum>lanees render a larger establishment necessary than
It the numbers were lixed and not constantly tluctuatiiiir.
101. Do yon consider the •governor's "bod v-guarcf at Sydney as absolutely
necessary .J— I hcfj tojiive in this memorandum, which I drew'up on the snlnect iii
consequence ol tne (piestions that were put to me when I w..s last before the
Committee, wliich will lurnish an answer to the pres<nt ipjestion.
[T/ie Jolloxdnir Memorandum um nivm in, and read, as the ftltncss's Answer.]
•; The governor's body-guard, as it is ter^ned, or moimfed orderlies, consist^
during Miy government ot one non-commissirai( .1 otlicer and six privates whicii
number is, in my opinion, snlKcient for every necessary purpose. 'llKse men arc
soldiers ot the garrison, and the only exi)en>e attending the establishment is
a small allowance in addition to their military pay, and their clothing as light
dn*g(,ons. llie total annual expense of the establishment, as stated in the Third
Report ot the Commissioners of Colonial In(|iiiry, dated 1st Xovember 18 jo was
103 /. 10*. 2 i d. In.k pendent (,f the policy of distinuuisbiiig the goveriua- in some
degree by the attendanee ol a nuamted ordiilv, the duties which they perlorm arc-
not allogetlier unimportant. '1 hey furnish two orderlies daily at the .'overnment
house, which orderlies would otherwise be takui hom the oarris.j,, ; U'.vsv orderlies
take letters, c^c. to the several public ollices and to individuals in the town When
dispatch IS necessary, they ar.' sent with (adeis and other conmnMiications into the
country. Iwo generally atten.l tlie governor when making his inspection of the
detached stations, and air, in bict, necessary as a guard when he is tiavellin-' to the
remote districts. I believe there is a similar est.iblishnu nt in most, if not all the
colonial govTrn.ncnts. There was at Mauritius when I held the administraliou m
the years 1819 '"'"' •8jo.
I !*'",■ ■^V''.-,"" """'■'■■ "''" ^'"'^ '""■^' ''"■'' ''^■'" "»ume>.ted since that time ■—
I think .Mr. I lay told me it had been augmented since I came away.
103. Are you ot opinion th.it one iion-commi^sioued idlicer and.MX iirivates are
quite sufticient?^^ is. '
104. Are the non-coinmi-si<r.,td idflcer and piivatts taken Irom iciments
belonuini: to ti,e gam-on f— Ve^, Imni i.-„neut.-, in New .-South Wales.
i;..V lias It been iiuu b ll,-,. ira.tic. to , iiiplov milit.iry uflic.r. .(Hinnandm^.
Jinhtttiy detuchments in N\w .Scutfi Wales and Van Ihum'u'. Land, m J,e per'-
•:t*
(.#.
ON MILITAIIY KSTAIJLISIIMENTS IN JHE COLONIKS. u
i
r.nniiiicc of civil magistcriiil (lutif,sr--It Ims ; and I should s.iy «itli very great
advuiituge.
106. Uiivc tlicy generally had an extra allowance per diem for performing these
civil duties? — They have.
107. Arc not these military oilicers, considering tlic mere f|ucstion of cxpen,-e,
cheaper as civil ofticers tlian civilians would be sent out liom Europe as sucii, and
paid as civil servants? — 1 should say so, certainly.
108. Are these military officers generally efficient in the discharge of their civil
duties? — They have heen particularly so. The governor of course, as I did
myself, takes pains to select the individuals best qualilied for the office.
109. Then, if they are both efficient and economical, are you of opinion that the
investmg of military oHicers with civil aulhoiity may, in very many cases in the
colony under consideration, be advantageous to the pulilic service? — I think parti-
cularly so.
1 10. Since the increase i;i the commissariat esiablishment, have tlie accounts
Leen regularly made up ? — I conclude they have, not having heard to the contrary.
111. Before that period they were in arrear ? — It appears by what jirccedcs, that
they were very much so.
1 I 2. Were they in arrear w hen you came away ? — I do not know that they were;
my presumption is that they wen.' not in arrear.
113. Have you any obst'rvations to olVer generally ior the information of the
Committee? — I would merely slate, that in the statV proposed it was intended that
the appointment of brigade-major sliould l)e discontinued, and that the commandant
recomniended for Sydney should lie the senior regimental otlicer of that garrison,
and not a permanent apjwintmeut, as in tliat case a smaller allowance would
sutficc.
I.ioiit •Gen.
R,i/iili D.idms-
24 M;ucli iB:ij.
A ♦
Major Joseph Wakefield, .loih UeginRiif, called in ; and Exau.iiied.
114. HAVE you served some time in New South Wales? — I have served for
— Three .•ear> ; I let't New
SIX years in Ne>v South Wales.
11 ,5. How long have you been returiad from
South Wales in July iS;}'J, for India.
lit). The regiments ih^re are i;ir;itK delaelied, are they not ? —Very muih;
very distant trom Jiead-cpiarters, and very smad detachments too.
117. Is the leipiiMte duty there hard M|>on tiic troops ? — Yes, I think it is upon
those in the interior, particularly if stationed over road-gangs.
I 18. I'pon an average, how often are they called upon to mount guard? —
I really do not know, but I think very Ireipiently tiiey have not more than two
nights in bed ; often only one ; perhaps sometimes they may have three.
1 1 1). At the time vou wt-re in New South Wales, it appears there were but three
regiments? — T"wo m New South Wales, and one in Van Diemen's I^and.
ijo. Are the duties reciuireil not only numerous but various I-' — The duties are
various ami numerous. A great deal of escort duty is required, which is very
fatiguing. , . , • • ,
121. It appears that there is a great numlier in the commissariat department m
New South \Vales ; are their f^ervices much called for there : -Yes ; but I am not
ac(piainted with any commissariat de|iarlment in particular; I do not know what
numlier they have.
\-2l. What detaehmeiils over eoiuicts are there in New South Wales .' -There
are convicts where most of the detaehmeuts are ; but Moreton Bay and Norfolk
Island are tiie penal settlements oi New South Wales.
IJ3. What is >;enera!ly the r»lati\e sicengib of the detachment and the number
of convicts at each station, upon an average ? —1 will state the force at the stations
at which i was : at King Cicorge's Sound, where I was for two years, (I went
th< re when it was tirsl settled) I had a serjeant and 20 rank ae.d tile, and about 30
convicts, but they were men of belter eharaeter than you generally meet with,
picked men on purpose, that they mi^ht clear the ground, rai.se huts, and act as
niechanics. I was if, monltis at Norfolk I-laiid, and I think thr.re were about 300
convicts there at that time. \\ hen 1 liisl went down, tlic strength of the detaeh-
mtiu wa.s about (14 rank and tile; it waa atterwards increased, and I believe it is
now ijo, or perhaps a few more. The convicts had no barracks, nor ha I the
holdieis, so that I re(]nired at that lime rather a strong loree for the number ol
pri>oners.
o.n. c 2 \2.\. You
Mnjnr
J,iS,i,h U idrliilil.
Major
Joseph yViikefUld.
34 March 1835.
12 MINUTES OF KVIDFACK HEFOilK. SEUXT COMMITTEE
IJ4. Vou have spoken of tlic comparative streiijrth of the troops ami convicts
at the liiUerent stations ; it appears that at Lonu-holtoni, Spriiimvood, and Weathcr-
honrne, ut each ot the.se i)laces there is one sini-le sohher, and no other inihtarv
person ; on uiiat duty do you suppose that iiuhviihial sohher can he emph)ved :—
I cannot say; one man «ouhi l)e perfectly useless; perhaps he may he left in
eharjre ot the Imrracks vacated hy tlie tle(aehnient, or he a mounted police-man
stationed on the road.
IL',';. Are they ever allowed to he servants to civilians?— No.
\ib. Do you know tlie stren^tli of tiie fjovernor's hody-j;uard ?— I do not know
the strength. I think there were ahout 12 w 14 mounted in Sydney; hut 1 do
not know.
127. Hiive they mucli duty to perform ?— I am not aware of any diitv except
atteiuhufT the governor, anil eanyinn despatches oceasionallv hetween Paramatta
and Sydney. I am not aware that tliey perforin any other duty.
128. What is the whole extent of coast of New .South Wale.s, wiiich the troops
have to guard ?— I think horn Sydney to Moreton IJav is al)out ^m miles to the
north eastward. King Ceorge's Sound, I helieve, is li.-oo miles to t!ic westward
upon the .southern coast.
1 29. How far docs the guard extend iiiK rnally ?- I d„ not know the extent of
It, never having heeii along the houndaries myself. There is a stroii" detaehni'Mit
•at Ualhurst, which is 120 miles in the interior of the coiinirv, to the westward
130. Were you ever at \'an Diemen'.s Laud:— I liave "heen there three times
but never f|uarlered liieie to do duty. '
1.31. Is the duty there equally severe upon the troops as in New South Wales?
— 1 cannot sav.
Capt. Ilciirv Snnilh
ill ; and Examined.
." — Since 1 S04, in tiie ;ji|th
From the latter end
I ' -
Captain Iloirj/ Smyth, 39111 Regiment, called
132. MOW long have you heen in the service
regiment.
133. How long were you statitJiud in Xew South Wales
ot 182(1 to Deceinher 1S32.
134. During that period were you often in detachments .=_ Almost the entire of
the time.
IS,-;. In command of detaehnientsr— Ves.
130. Is the duty severe upon the troops there:—! think it is rather severe.
I have always aneied there was a p.uicity of troops in the stations wiiere I have
been, tor the duties they had to perlorm. .My lirst station was formin.- a lew
.settlement at the northern extremity of Xew Holland, called Kallles liav^ which
wa.s atterwards ahan.loiied, and I think, with that of .Melville Islaial, concentrated
in the one now ormed hy Captain Stirling at Swan i{iver ; hot!, those .settlements
were abandoned about the latter end of iSjS. Suh..e.pantlv I was sent to l>ort
J\lacr|uarrie. •
137- As you have served in .so many places, do yon consider the comparative
duty mNew South Wales is more har.i or more li^ht up.m the soldiers thm, in
other stations where you have heen ?-It is much harder, I conceive.
13s. ^Ooc' «''"t 'nclude Van Dien.en's Land:- N„. I know nothing of Van
Uiomen s Land. I am now sp.aking more partuMilailv Iron, the sohlier,,' heonent
coinplaint^ to iiu ot the hard duties they had to perfoim, especially at Port
i\lae.|uarrie, where they had only a night, or a night and a half in l.'ed. ft is
customary or soldiers so to express themselves. I fre.iu.nilv made applications
tor re let; but as the men were .sent to head-piail. rs, the nu.i.hndf the .letachment
wa.sallowe<ltodiminiM,; n.nie were .sent to supply their places. Sukscpieiitly
1 ort Maeciuarrie was made a tree settlement.
130. liow many nights in bed had the several .letaclniients, upon an avera-e "—
I lev had not two nights in he.i certainly in l;„ll|,..s Payor Port Macrpiarri." but
I think they had two nights n, he.l at Sy-lnev. I am not aware how lar the duties
u the other .ietachments go. but should consider they were pretty e.|ual in point of
•inly, lor that distribution would naturally take place at head-.njultcr.s.
14". Ls not the climate in soim^ parts of the year very oppressive --1 never
mnu It ,H, ; now and then, perhaps, «|,en a particular wind is blovMn-. .somewhat
hke the sirocco in ^^alla, ,t 1. r,,ther oppressive, hut not to atlict ll,e eoiiMimtion
III .uiv w.r, .
ill. The tioops ,ur L'cnu.illy lieahhy the.e.-- I think pa.ticulai ly so ; what
.Mckliess
1 '
V
-
l)\ MILITARY F.STAliLISHMRNTS IN THE COLONIES. 13
Bickness ilierc is with then., I tear too commonly arises from tlieir own indiscretion ; C ^n.l^r,m,
there is too mut u liiciiitv of ohtaininn what soldiers f-enerally like, spirits.
14 .. What stations have you held the command of dnnn- the period you were in ^4 M-,..<i,
Now South Wales ?- Rallies Hay and Port Mac(iuarne only.
14;]. Were you ever at Van Dicmen's Land?— Merely in the harhour, and that
wus on my nassujie out , I was on shore. , . , , • ■ . n •
.44 Are von acquainted much with the dut.rs which the commissuial are called
upon to perform in New Soutii Wales ?-Nol much beyond that which particularly
a|)()ertaiueil to my own stations. ^ . „ i
I 4',. I sniM'ose there is an otlicer or clerk ot the commissariat department at each
station '-There were two wi'li me, a clir!: ami an assistant.
i4(i Were both necessary?-! think <|nite so. It was an extensive seit.ement ;
I Ind from x.o to 500 prisoners, also some female convicts in a factory tiieru.
Th(' onl-stations were very wide asunder, and the duties ot the commissariat ot
course on an e(iualiy extensive scule ; even then, with all the vigilance they could
adoDt, depredalions"were occasionally committed.
14- Did you ever hold a civil otlice connected with your military command r —
Yes? V was a'ppoiuted a magistrate at I'orl iMac(inarrie ; the duties were clnetly witt.
the convicts. . . , , ■•
14S. Had you extra pay for that: -I had 10 ,v. per dicm.
14(, In addition to your military pay? In addition to my military pay. 1 he
apiH.in'tment ot a military olhce to that station ceased with me. 15. Sulivan, Ls(j.,
succceilcd me as mauistrate there. , , , , , . .
1 'o Were there any complaints with rciiard to the harrack department, as to
the nuiintenance of tho'lmrracks, where you were <inartcred ? In what w_ay are they
kept up? -Yes. They ar(^ withhi the military walls; they are curried on in the
same sort of way as usual. .
I i;i. Under the colonial jioyernimnt, arc they not :• -Yes.
i"'.. Do you consider that system answers well? -It never appeared to me that
the iKirrack" system was a good one, hut I am not prepared to say why; it
ai'ueared to he always in some degree disorganised.
I V? Was there any want of harrack uten-ils or harrack tnrmture :— \ es, 1 do
think t'here was a great deal ; and it appeared to me ihe restrictions on the harrack-
nu.ster were more than usual in such situations, and that he was not on that
re'sDcctahle footiim wliich is generally the case. - xt . • vt
i';4. ^'ou have been in other colonial stations besides those twor—Nol m New
"T;\. Ymi have been in other colonies?-! have been in Malta, Sicily, the
I'enin-ula, Canada, Ireland and India.
1 Mi 'I'hcn yon do not consider the l)arrack department so well managed ijnder
the CoU.nial Government as under the Ordnance ?-Certainly not, in my opinion
ir. Were you stationed at Sydney during the time you were m New South
^Vaies ?— A very short time ; it was merely iluring the period between my return
from Raffles Ray and my going to I'ort Mac(iuarrie.
rs Do you know anything of the duties ot a mounted body-guard r-fhere
was one, 1 think, a seijeant and V2 privates; I freciuently used to meet them on
Ih^imd between Sydney and Paramatta; their .luties, I beheye, were principally
lukin" despatches to out-stations.
,-„ Piramatta is the governor's residence, ! believe ?— The governor has
., resi'lence at I'aramatta, but (iovernor Darling generally resided m Sydney;
Governor Ronrke, I believe, prefers Paramatta, ^
Wio Is there any other inlormation whicii you can give the Committee r— No.
I IwMr io say with re>pect to the barrack department, there appeared to n.e to be
\ ant of comfort and a want of regularity which di.l not exist m those I have seen
at other places, but tlnit is m.Mcly a matter of opinion ; I had .... ac s upon which
'a form ...y J^lgment, but it appeared to n.e that the barrack department in
gLMural wa> nut conducted «ilh the best regularity.
,(•,, Was the commissariat department satisfactorily conducted, as regards the
„Hicers and men?-! think particularly so. Sometimes the contractor tor bread
Hi not Luc that of the bc'l quality, and con.pla.nts were then made, but hey
«;' e"eme.he.l ; generally speaking, the bread they supplied was very go..d, and tht
meat also was very gooil.
,,;.. Had you anv opportunity of judging whether it was economically con-
" -■ • • ' ' " , ducted.
Smi/tli .
i8;lG.
/
14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMm EE
Capt. Ilenri/ Smi/ih. ducted, with reference to the public service? — I Imd no opportunity of jiidniin' In
84 March i8ir * Certainty, liut there iippenred to me to be nothinj; to tlie rever,-e.
■*' 163. Or uiulher its cstnhhslmicnt wns luri;i; rel.ilively to tlie duties it bud to
perform: — 1 ,iid not consider it extensive. There appeared to me to be u jjreut
deal of reij;nlarity and a L'rciit deal of attention in that esiahlisbment.
I{i4. And you have bad >;reat experience in tlie supply of troops by the commis-
siiriat? — I had. In j;oinu out to RalHes Bay, I was unfortunately supplied with
.«onie very inditfcicnt sail meat, but that was the only instance.
iOff. In point of fact, tlie estalilishmint there is laiger, relatively to the mnnhcr
of per-ons fur «hom tliiy have to provide, than yon have known them at other
station- ' There are a ijrcat number of indiviiluals employed in the commissariat
there? — Yes, I think it is very possible there may be ; but the commissariat have to
supply an immense number, the troops and convicts to<;elher.
i(Jt). Then you do not tlni'k the est.diiisl.nent too larye lor the number they
liave to provide hir r — No; I think they are very actively employed.
167. Hut you think the hairack department is ill rcf-nlated, or mif^ht be better
orj^anised ? — Yes.
I(J8. Do you think it ^vonld be iin|>roved, supposin;» it was transferred to the
Oidnance? — Y»s, I have not a doubt ol it.
1 69. There arc a lireat number ol" public stores, are there not, under the chariie of
the couH!iis,^ariat ? — '\'e-', there are.
170. Do you think their ililVnsion over a ureal extent of countrv renders
a greater number of coniiuissariat otHcers necessary.' — Yes, that is the reason.
There is a diHiciilty in the tran-^port ot provisi(JUS to out-stations, and svhen sent in
anv maiinitiide, slioidd be taken charge of by one (d" the dejiartment. It is very
(lilficidt even v\itli a serjeant who has only 12 men to perform that duty. lie may
be jujiplicd y a conaactor near to his station, and then he may do very well, but
he eotdd not do il where there were a couple of hundred people to |)rovide tor
without conimissari.it assistance.
171. How loniidid you serve in the Peninsula : — From the latter end of 1810
till our arrival at lioideaux and Tauliac in 1814.
172. Durinii that period yon had pretty ^ood experience of «hat was required
in the commissariat department r--Yes, I liad.
17J. With reference to what you said befun?, that a Serjeant and 12 uien miiiht
have the churue of stores and provisions, should you not think that at lion^j I5on^,
where there are only 12 men, the deputy-assistant commissary-i;eneral nn^lit be
retrinched ■ — If that is the only duty he has to perform, lu; nuiiht. 'I'hat is a di-
rection in which I have not been, but I think there are various stations concen-
trated in one commissariat duty, and somewhere in that neifjlibonrhoud.
174. You have slated the duties of the comnjissariat with rci^ard to the c m-
viets ; then I suppose you by no means look on the connnissariat as exclusively
u military establishment ? — No, certainly not ; 1 consider it includes the whoh;.
17/5. Hy whici) you mean, that if there were no C(jnvicts there, the troops would
not require anything like the present establishment? — Certainly not.
I7(). May I ask Hhether you consider the convicts under the charge i)( {jovern-
nient woidd retpiire a larger number of commissaries to provide for them than the
same inimber of King's troops would: —I do not perceive why they should, as the
distribution is nearly tl:e same ; intact, as no spuils are issueil to the convicts,
there is rather less duty in providiuL; for them.
177. Are :'iere not superintendents over the convicts? — Yes, sehcled iVom
tiiemselves, in some instances ; in fact, in nniny instances it is indispensable, such
a nuiriher as there are in the road-gangs, who have onlv to throw do«n their
spades and ste|) out of sight immediately; it letpiires a great deal of attention to
keep these men in order.
178. It has been stated by (leneral Darling that the nundjcr of convicts mider
charge of the governor is about ;3,ooO, so that the convicts and King's troops
together amounted to between 7,000 and 8,000 ; it also appears from tins Return
that the number of connnissaries and clerks amounted to between 80 and (jo in the
Australian colony, whilst at Ceylon, where the troops are very lunnerons, .O.ooo
rank and lile, there are but 17 CDinniissaries and cletks; why is llu're si> nuicli
dilference m the amoimt ? — I should think the extent ot llu; distribution is much
gf' ater in New South Wales. T'lie extent of conntiy is veiy consid( rable.
iJuihiir-t is upwards of 100 mi'es; Norfolk Island, .Moreton Ray and IVjrl Mac-
(piurrie are iit a great distance ; various otli'-r stations are very nmch di-tributod
and difficult to communicate with.
/
^
ON MILITARY KSTAnLlSHMF.NTS IN TMK COI.ONIF.S. 15
181U
/
1
34 Miircli 1833.
Jiobert milmm Hay, Vm\., Unilcr Secretaiy for llic Colonies, called in ; and
further Kxaniined.
17«). WHAT is tlx; present iiiiiount ot the Ixidy-nimrd 111 Sydney r— Ihe bn ly- ,,^^^
uuiini 1ms heen superMiled l)y u certain number of ()nierlie.s, us (lenerid llonrke has
reported in a (kvspiiteh whicli wi.s reeeived ironi iiini in Dweinhcr lust. I he
Secretury of State lius since directed that the expense of these orderlies should lie
reduced, conceivinii that they were only a substiti'*'')n for the hody-guurd, which
was eoiisidiriHl unnecessary.
iSo. What Ketutus relative to Nova Scotia do you propose to lay before ttic
Connnittcer- I |,ropose to produce the Returns whieii were |)rinted last year. It
has not heen thonfiht necessary to reprint them, because the chanfrts w hich have
taKen place since the lust year I shall he ul)le to tsplain to the CoinnnUee.
1 should \vi4i to eontine the "evaiuination to-dav, if possil'li, to Nova Scotia, New
IJrnnswiekand I'rime Kdwal■(^^ Islan.l, allhoii;^h Newfo>nuliand is included m the
Nova Scotia eoininand, and tlmetore appears at the head ot tins Uetnrn. lU'rmuda
is a separate eoinniand ; hut 1 should propose that NevxfoundlautI ami ik'rinnda he
taken tojictlier on a t'ntnre dav.
iSi. Can vou furnish a Kelurii of the ttVective force in Nova Scotia up to a later
period than I'Sjj '—1 Inive ohtained from the .\djntaiit-.neneral's otiiee a Uetnrn ot
the etleetive toice iij) to March last, as lar as it can he ascertained (xce printed
Taper in Appendix.) It contains the amount of loice lor the last \ear in all the
colonies, as well those which have heen under examin.ition as those which are to
lie examined into; it is supplementary to that Return v\ hich i- helore the (Jom-
initlee, in the Appendix to the printed Papers.
18.'. There is no maierial alteration heiween the force in 1833 anil i8;54? —
The amount in 1 K.; ; appears to have heen .'.I -)i, now it is ■i.D.^t).
i8j. Can yon iiilorin the Coinmittte as to the distribution ol the torce lielongmn
to the Novii Scotia cominund ?— 1 his paper (.sec printetl I'aper, Appendix) contains
the <listrihuti(m of the force accordim^ to the latest Returns.
184. Have any applications for an increased force in that (inarter been made to
ihv (iovirnment- — 'I'lie only application of late years was from New Rrnnswick,
in con.-e(|ueiu'e of the un^^etiled state of the houiulary (piestion. It was then
determined tiiat some adilitiiaial force should he sent out, and that «as dispatchi<l
in Fehruarv 1 8;54. ,. , ..
iS,,. Who is the present jvovcrnor of Nova Scotia r—.Major-ueneral Sir Colin
Campl)ell.
iS(). Can you inforni the Ccnnmittee as to the amoniit of pay and emoluments
of the preseiit jiovernor and his immediate predecessor: — Sir Colin Camphell
enjoys a salary of 3..')00 /. a year aloni; with his stall pay as a inajor-neiieral ; ids
ininiediate |)redecessor was Sir I'eiejirine Maitland, who enjoyed considerably
more orijiinally, and was reduced in the latter part of liis j;overnment to 3,000/.
a year, and the government of Annapolis, wiihont any statt" up[/ointment. Sir
James Kempt, who preceded him, had larj^er emoluments still, but these are to be
found ill the Report n|)on Army and Navy A()pointinents, and are stated by Sir
James Kempt himsell in liis evidence ; lliey amounted altogether, 1 perceive, to
npwards ot .i.ooo/. a year.
187. Uliat was the total of Sir reiegrine Maitlaiul's emoluments, includm-^
Annapolis?— £.3,000 a year, colonial salary, and 1)67/. for Annapolis; he had
also the emolunient of colonel of a regiment; hut tiiese are taken into account m
all cases, and tlieiefore 1 have not stated them.
188. Will you inlorm the Committee the amnnnt of pay and emoluments ot the
lientenant-uovernor of New lirunswick r— The lienlenant-governor of New
lirniiswick'has 3,,-,ou/. a year, colonial salary, and is not n(ion the statV. It is
intended that the future salary attached to that guvernment shall only be 3,000 /.
|8(). ('an you intorm the Conmiittie of the amount of pay and emoluments ot
the lieutcnant-iiovcrnor of Prince Kdwarif.s Islaiulr— X. l,uooayear, with too/,
fees, making i^ioo/. ; he is not upon the slaif, and does not command tiie troops.
190. Is there a government-house in each of these colonies r— -\ es, there is.
liji. Out of what tuiid is the governor paid in each colony ?— In Nova Scotia
the colonial salary is in part derived from the sum of 2,000/., which llie Assembly
a'Mced to gi\e in "the course of hist vear us a commutation for quit rents due to the
(Vovvn. Ft will he iiecessaiy, I helic- e, to apply to I'arliauient to make up the
delicienev not onlv of the ficutuuuit-govLruui's salary, hut to provide lor the
0.1 1. " " f. 4 '"■'■'="■-
MINIITKS OF KVIOHNCK BKFOIIK SKLKCT (OMMITTKE
//",". nrrenrs «liich Imve accrued in conHcn.ience of tl
uitncMt
94 M:ircli i8,(5
fVoin tin: C.'nmn re
suhnyot tlic luHitciuiiit-f;ovcmor of Ne« Itrunswick
vemie of tin; cole
iiy, iiiiil tliiit of til
ic (lisyoiitimianco of the vote of
itc. is |)ai<l
''live 11 1 or o
if !•
nil
I I
I
luluHnl's I.lmul from the |'arl,n,nontury vote. uh>el, appears upoo the e,ti.,mles
one trainin. .^[y annuallv : in No ^io,h. h " ■ ^ ^ Tr'"''''' "• T '^ ""'>'
MX). .\re there (urts or other puhlio works to he keot" nn = Tlw.r, :
.4 mo \W I "'"'T '" ""' l">l'''l'"i-" '•'• ^■"'■1' r-mvineev-ln Nova Scoti.
I4-. 'o Neu;I5rm.sw,ek, 7J,„„o ; an.l iVinee K.lwa .f. Man.) Moo *
J9,-U. nnlu,a have not heen tor any period en.ploye.l, have u:^'::!^,. u.ey
vr:;Ki'u;;;^;;;tt;,;'r^t:;^rt.;'t •:':•:. T -" -••^t""" •"--■^-
Jccor.iin, to the present law. th^ i^'on; . "t .^ '" ^"^".[I't v""
iJrnnswiek, where the milit-irv <v t,.,. ; 1 " ■"■'""„ <• HK ni .New
rep..rtoftheiien,L,K'nt-;;;;vSn- " "" '"^•"- l-l-iar, aceonhn, ,0 the
'02" Is tk',' '"' '""' '"' '•■''''" '" "'""■'• "•■ "''• !'n.vinees?_No„e
;, •>; '" •'"•'- t''< '^' '"'•'' I'Lrn no incrciise ot force since 1 S - . :--V„ ■ ,|., ,.,
;;'„:^ "■'■^' ■"""■ » •• ' .'5 :i r';;;;;™:;:;!;;:;]'::^^;!-
004. ""■^ the appoiniirient of (leiiutv adiiii'ini ,r,.iw.r,l i ]■ ■ .
not about to he Isconti.iu.d "- T, '•''"•'" :-""''' ''7'" «l'.^co:un.ue!l, or is it
abolished. ■ *'" "''"'■ "' ''''"".V ^"Ij.'lant-j-tuerai has been
■-'0.-,. Since when.-— Snice the last y-ar
^:.?:rN;;;:';;;:r ■„;:; ™i:;!::*;-; : -™ • '^'^ -■»■ !™" - s;' .;:
co„„„a„,l,„s. '"^""»'-'l'«"« "I IN.^ i>-,l„,[„, ,„„ „,„i „,. ,„„ „„.^,-,
in s n:::;,::;::!^:!';:;;::;;,;:!;;;;:^;'''" r' t- "--'^ "-■ - !-.... of torce
incre:..e of iorce I \n t TZ \ '"""" ^^ '''N'"U.. hnl there has be,n no
another re,nnentwl::i:'!^^,':~ -^"-"^ "- -n, on,
— '"- -" --^•■''^■'■i^li-.;::i.r';;:ra%:;;^a::;;7^
tiiat
i
ON MILITARY ESTAULISIIMKNTS IN THE COLONIES.
»7
that in coiisc(|uence of the applicution of Sir Arcliibulil Campbtll, u rcgirncut was Robert Hm. Haw,
sent out. I (lid not .stutr tliat uii addiiionul force uppearcd in tlic Return. t»q.
aoH. Wiieii was tiidt • — IniHjj. —
2()<). In conscqu(!ncc of wiiicli Hp|>licution, however, no increase has taken ''♦ ^'''f'"'' '835-
place ?— No ; as tiie enieraency at the same time arose elsewiiere, and a rorinient
was talvcn away from Halifax for other duly.
•Jio. Would the present state of tlu; houndary question su^^est considerations
aj»aiust a redurtion ? — I should think it very un» ise to reduce the force ; the fron-
tier to he jjuurded is a very extensive one.
•-'11. Has there been any reduction in the staff in New Urunswick within the
last year: — None, as far as I am aware.
21-'. Have there been any ilisUirbancis in these colonies whicii re(|uire troops to
act u|>on any particular occasion :— It liHd been tor some time reported tliat the
niiliiia were orfianisinf,' in the province ot Maine, and the j^overnor strongly urged
the necessity of Imviiif,' an additional force on his own fiontier.
213. If the militia was organised on a better footing, and a strong civil police
established, migh' not that admit of a reduction of tiie troops? — I sliould appre-
hend tile regular force wouhl be more likely to conduct themselve-^ with propriety,
and there would be less chance nf lainguig on a collision tlian if militia were
opposed to each other on that frontier.
214. I think you said the militia force was not poi)ular? — Xo, it is not at all
popular in the colony.
215,. If they were employed would they be nearly as expensive as the re>»ular
troops? — I should imagine tliat they would l)e. °
21(1. Do the trodps in Nova Scotia receive rations?— Yes, they do.
217. For whieh they pay bi/. a day ?— I believe it is now reduced to ,5^/. in
most (|uarters.
21 8. \ ou stated that the revenue of Nova Scotia was (18,000/. a year, ami yet
that it is necessary to come to Parliament to provide for the pay of the governor ;
wouhl it not be |)racticable to make some retrenchments in tiie expenditure of the
colonial revenue, so as to prevent the necessity of coming to Parliament ? The
government lias no control over that portion of tin; colonial revenue w hich is at the
clis|)osal of the Assembly.
2 1 (). The necessity arises from the deticieiiey of that revenue ; and is it not ri<'ht
that I'aiiiament siiouid have some means of preventing an application of that sort
arising: — That revenue is under the coiiiiol of tlie Assembly, and they dispose of it
as tiiey think best.
220. IJut without some limit or control «e might be placed under the necessity
ot granting mucii more ?— It v oiiid be very desirable to make some arrangement
with tiie Assenil)h-, if possible, by wliicii tliey niiglit take a larger jiortion^of tiie
expenditure iijion tii'Mir^elves; liiit it has not iiitherto been found practicable to
accomplish this oiijeet.
221. Suppose Parliament sliould refuse to grant what it is proposed to ask for
the governor -—The result would be that a governor with smaller emoluments
must go out, and the present governor come home.
222. Do you eoiieeive there might be any retrenchment made in their colonial
cx|)enditiire? - I tind tliat large sums are expriuled in making roads and bridges.
223. Tliey expend large sums on their own jiroperty, and seek to make yood the
deticieiu-y i)y a grant of money from this country ? — The chief items of their expeii-
ilitiue ap|)ear to he tor local improvements.
224. Would it not be calculated to create dissatisfaction in tiie colony to call
upon them to give up a part of what tliey appropriate to local improvements, towards
the enioluiiieiit of a governor from this country ^ — It would be a very unpopular
measure ; much discussion has already taken place in tlieir Assembly as to the
amount they would be disposed to give towards the civil establishment.
2-.'-,. How is that amo'uit raised, tlie amount wliicli tiiey give; is it by taxes
absolutely imposed by them on tiie colonists? — It arises principally from duties of
excise and customs raised in tlie colony.
■226. How is the amount determined of the sum appropriated by them to civil
wuiks? — I'iie As^enibiy determine as to the amount to be expentle'd i)v them for
provincial olyeets.
227. I tliink you said 2,000/. quit rents was assigned to the pay of tlie governor?
-£. 'j,ooo/. was specially as/.gned by the Assembly to this object, the
0.1 1.
sum
to
lUhrrt H'm.
Esq.
94 March jSj,',.
18 MINUTKS OF KVIDKNCK IJEFOllE SKLliCT COMMIUKK
//n», to l)c urnntrd ii» r comimitutioii for tlu< t|tiit nnts ; it is in part (inly ol' the
jiovernoi's .sulury.
~ 2j8. \s tluita IImiI |H'iiniiiK'nt ii^rt'ciiitnt now r As Cur as it f;(n's, it is.
2JI). I las tilt" Crovtn hiirn iidi rtd all its ciuinis to «|iiit riMits on tliut comlition,
tiint J.odu/. shonid tic; assjiincd to the piiy ol the governor? — Ye.s.
ajo. Was tiic I'rown ol o|iiiii(in ihnt it eould r((|iiir(' no lurner .snni than 2,000/.
for tlie salary of the novtrnor ■ — No, the CniHii «as f>liid to ^u-t what it could;
the collection of rjiiit rents hciiij; a most iin|io|inl;ir ineaMiic in tne province, iimt
one uliicli had not heen resorted to lor some years past.
j;ji. lias it jiUvays tiei 11 the practice to make good the novcrnor's sulury hy a
H;rant of jjooo/, in that pioxiiicer— No; this arran<.'emcnt first took place in last
year.
■.';}2. When did this at first hef-in ?— The v\liole of the fr„vTinor's sulury iva.s paid
hy this country until a very late peri<id ; the I'arliamenlaiy vote was first dis-
continued in iH;jj.
23;5. The whole of the yovernors salary was paid hy Parliament r— Yes, the
whole of the novernor's colonial .salary iippeurcd on the estimate; he also enjoyed
the emoluments urisin;,' from ihe government of Annupoli.s, and a sum in commuta-
tion for the fees on land palciiN ; u vote of I'arliument is apt to he considered
hy colonists us a link in the connexion with the mother country, and it is not
willingly relimpiishcd.
./m/.s, 'J()° die Marlii, 1835.
%
SIR JOHN HYN(J, IN TIIK C II A IK.
'nomas A<r/irr, Ivsq. calhd in; and Examined.
T. WrrAfr, Esq. i'M- AUK there not Jo commissiirics and deputy-cotnmissaries. und (ii clerks
— of various descriptions, in the Aiislralian fuovinces iiicludiiijt Van Diemcn's Land .=
a(i .\rarcli 183.J. - I am not pri pared to sjieak of Van Dicim ii'.> Land at this niomciit; I thout;ht
the inijuiriesof tlii. Committee would he eoidined to New South \\ ales, lor whTeh
colony 1 am i)re|iaied to j;iv(; iuforinalion.
-J,')- )Vill you state what lias heen the reduction in New South Wales.'- i v\ill.
At the time the Return was |iiepared and suhiuitted to the Comuiitlee ol last year,
the department, as hir as was then kiu,wii at the 'J'reasuiy, consisted ol theiiumher
s|)eiiti(d in that Ketiirn ; hut hy siil)s{i|ii( nt iiilorination, it apjuars that in the
course of the year i S j,; the nuiiiher in New .Soutii Wales was n duced to 'S
persons, haviui; heen previously /■, 1.
•J.JIi. Are you speakiuL; of commissaries now ? -I am sp(iikiu{> ol the depart-
ment collectively.
2;}7. lucluilini; issuers, stiackecpeis, and overseers and in. snenm'rs, undso.in^
— No; I am s|)eakiii.; ol ( iimuii.^siuit ■. and clerks ; i.i.\r tin; i>i of .March i.S}4
tlie nuinher was lurtlicr reduced to Ji) per.-oiis.
J3.S. 'Ihe Coiiiuiitlee ohserve thai the whole expenditure of the commissariat
in New South Wales, in the Return of 18.J.5, was 10,714/.; liow much is that
expenditure reduced ?—'l'he rethictiun wliicli took place in the jear iS.jj as to
iiunibeis, would he hnnid, 1 hilieve, to he ahoul seven or ( i;;lil persons less tliaii
the niimher relurned in the paper whicii Ihe Committee have heloie them. Tlie
further reduction in the yi ar iM.n produces an aimual saviuij of i.oj.-, /., hut lli.s
is the diminished chaiiie U|i(jn the last reduction ol iiuuiher, I he iKluclion in ihc
year iS,;.; (H'ected a savnii;. hut 1 am not picjiartd to say what i^ the auiounl of
that saviiiij.
.',;(). \\ilh all these reductions, there still seems to Ik' a j.'reat disproportion
hctween the expense of the coininissariai stall' in the Auslialiaii provinces and the
other stall's ; the medical stall', for example, a. coinpaied with other cohjiiie-, ; how
do \ou account loi' t;].ii. -ji.e ^iivue in liu' colony of New Soutii Wales is
peculiar: the coininissariai are employed in a variety of duties which are not
allollid to coiii.o' .isarie- on olhi r stations.
-•■fo. Will
i
WMITTKH
lart (inly ol the
n's, it is.
tl)ut condition,
mil than 2,(iim)/.
wimt It could i
■ |irovinci', iiiui
or's suliiry hy a
ik place ill last
salary was paid
c MU.H first (lis-
:;ntr — Yes, the
lie also enjoyed
ni in conumita-
hv considered
, and it is u.)t
K.
>. and (ii clerks
• icinin's l.aiid r
cnt ; i tliiamht
ales, tor which
Vales?— 1 will.
:ec ol last year,
ol the nuniher
irs lliat ill tlie
reduced to jS
nt the ikpart-
r>, and so .m '
d .Muicij iiS_J4
c conitnissariat
> iiinch IS tliat
■ar I S;j;j ;|s to
sons less than
e tht'iii. IIk;
'-'.'( A. lint this
ilnclion ill the
the auioiinl nl
t tlispiopdrtioii
viiiccs and thi-
(■oh.'iiici ; liow
I'Utii Wales IS
inIiicIi are not
•4
r
H
ON MILITARY KSTAULISHMKNTS IN TIIK COLONIES. it|
•J40. Will von speedy iheni r--Fcrliaps it will he satistaetory if I put into the T. Arrker.EB^.
hands ot the Committee a paper which is explanatory ot the duties. — — —
3<i March 183.V
[7'/<( ll'iliian itilhrrif/ in tin l\iprr, xihuh wax read us Jbthws :\
TiiK (liilics iicrfiirincd hy the comniisnuriiit ut Nov Soadi Wule» are much more exten-
Kivc iiiid wldt'ly iliH'iTi'iit h'oni tliime (ilotlnr siutioiis : >ii that th«y refjairi) ihb as-iiHlance of
it iirt'ttter naniiicr of piTMiliN lliaii would he rcqiiisitt' d' the' ttcrvice wen- purely military, and
the ('xpt'Uihtuiv anile lliau duuhli' wlmt It now is; lieenu^e the nrrmiifenieiitfi iniide witK
reiinr I to the tioops will In very tew, it any inHtiiaci's, apply iiUo l« Ihi' convict estahliith-
nieiits ; n (ait which the tollo*VMig ()li-.t'rviitionH will iin dniibt exhihit. The nt'ceHsity of
inaklii|r Hcpiirute and ilislinrt HrraiiLtciiu'iits, liolli ,ik to uceountH uad otlii'r matters connected
with the convicts, cntiiils <ai the coinuiisHariat nt least doiihlu the duty which iiii^ht lie
imagined hy those who look at the aiihtary force only as the critcriun hy which to judge of
its extent, in comparison with other statuins,
lnde|ienileatly, therelore, of the duties which devolvtMiii tl-.e coinmipiitnriat ns cunm'Cted
with llu' military for<e, (duties wiiich are fjreatly multiplied hy the peculiar service on
which the troops ure enijaued), it is the province of that department to make and carr)
into ellect ail tin arrani;emi'iits conseipient on vIelaallinL' and cluthiiii; from I'uur tu ftve
thousand convict'- in the immediate service of the Crown, hesides pruvidin;; and supplying;
the stores, tools and inipU'iiiciils neeessarv to llu ir vari<ais occupations. If all the convicts
were concentrated in only three or four dilleieiit estahiishmeiits at no ^real distance from
each other, these duties would he comparatively lij^lit, and their performance would reipilrc
only a few hands ; hut It is to lie home In mind that they are widely scattered over an
imineiise' tract of eoiinlry, and divided Into a i;ieat many ',iaiit;s, pnrtii's and istahlisluneuts;
that, with a view to the inaiiitenaiice ot proper discipline. It Is absolutely necessary to keep
them ai all limes well and refill irly supplied ; that the state of the colony has not admitted
of Irustiiii; allofjether to contraetors foi siii h supplies, — a fact which the failures In iHiC)
and lH;{ii will hilly estalihsli ; and that it has been consecpielitly hip;hly expedient to keep
up at (Ninvtnient Mtii.itions depots ot piovisni'is and stores, under the eharire of eompe-
teiit othcers, whose duty it Is to enforce the due fiiltilment of coiitra<;ts, to be pre|iared with
supplies III the evehl of any failure, 10 coiidiiet all payments and other expeiuliture, and to
act as a check on the Issue of rations ^ a cheek without which either the convicts would
not he duly supplied, or the public would in all probability Incur a serious loss. These cir-
cumstances are stated In aiisiver to any liapiirv thai may be made as to the reason why
c(Hitr.\cts have not been iiiilversally adopted. V\ lib tlu^ e\ce|)tioii also of arms and ammu-
nition, everythliisj, recpiired for (>i(biaiice services Is procured, sup|>liid and appro|>riated
tliri >ii:h the niednim ol the eommissarint.
At Svdm y. a» the head-cpiarters, all the t'cnrral arraiiijenients of the departments are of
course tirsi made, and there the duties are (llvlded so as to ensure etlicieiiey in their per-
formance, in the tii'st place, iht otlicer in chartje has an ollice, to assist hiiu in generally
supcriiilendin'4 ami controlliiii; the service under his direction.
riiere Is also an establlslimeiil for the reei ipt, custody and issue, both in bulk and in
delall, of nol oiilv die provisions reipiired at Sylmy but at all the ddFerent out-posts; a
duty which Is at once \ery rcsponsihle and recpilres several compL'teiit persons to perform
it. Apart I'rom this, there is a depot of stores, tools, Implements and clolhin;;, which could
not be ahoijethi r dispensed with under the siip;iosilioii that such supplies could be more
advanLij^^eiaislv procured (Ui the spot by contract.
I'he cash-otlice is unollier hiaiich llu(iiii;h winch all the numerous ami complicated trans-
actions have to pass, and from which die iiiiportaiit accounts of the money expenditure have
to b( rendered in a (it state foi audit. 'I'he additional d ity which devolves upon this
oHice as connicled with the convicts is very jireat, liaviii;.' to pay all the salaries and other
expi uses appeitaiiiini; to that service, and render (let, illed and very particular accoiinlB o(
the same. .\hhoui:li most of the payineiits ,ire now made by clie(piesoii the colonial banks,
still the duty IS not nuich diminisjied, as the accounts, which althou|;Ii they are as sim-
ple as they can be reduced, recpiire crpially as much allciitioii as before.
At I'ariimatt.i, which is the next station in point nl importance, and disiant If, miles
(icin Sydney, the convict and other estil)lisliiiieiits iirc extensive and numerous, not only
in the town but for many miles round the nel^liboiirhooil.
The nia^iaiine at this station lieiiii; a very i;(H)d one and t lii^ibly situated. Is used as i
recept.iele tortile ^;ram periodically received (iom coniractors; a circumstance which
eiiii.\nces the iiiiporlance of the station.
Windsor Is situated :jti miles Irom Sydney and n from Paramatta, in a district where
there are several convict and other establishments.
Hathiirsl, llic piinciiial inland station, liti miles from Sydney, is where all the duties
conncclcd with the convict and other estiililislunents westwanl of the lUue Mountains are
t
conducted, and which could not he bleiuicd with any other station.
l!oni;-Hon;j; is a stalaai So or (|o miles scaitli-we.s'tward of Sydney and eastward of the
1
Hhic Mountains ; and is the centre of an exit nsive district (the southern part of the colonyl
* where theie are several coiiMcl and other establishments, all of whom have to depend upon
■
r the j»uMic sloti's (or Uicir stibsistence.
Newcastle Is a sea-port (io miles north of Sydney, and forms an openiiii; to the extensive
district of Hunter's lliver, where theie are troops, eonviels, inounted police and surveyine
parlies de|K'ndeiit on (iovernmciii for their subsistence.
.
0. 11 . D 2 •'""
20
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT C(;MMITTEE
7. ^rcAfr , Esq. Port Macquarr e is about 130 m.los further north, an.l forms an outlet to thp thIp,!
. ';°""*'"X '" 'he vicinity of the river Hastini;s, wliere there are also fronV. ° J .
aC March 1835- denen.ling for subsistence on the public stores ' " "'"^ '^"""^''^
Moreton Hav and Norfolk Island, the former about 400 miles northward and ';„. Un..
about .000 miles north eastwanl of Sydney, are now the only two emrsctt uel A
each of these there is a large establishment of convicts, to.rether with tl r nn ., .^ i .
Each of the divisions at Sydney as before described is, with re<var,l to the evtent of dnfv
and responsib.hty, quite equal to an out-station; and as eacirii st o'Jth^^^^^^
several out-stafons, render u separate and distinct set of acco'm s if wU imr ik ,
iiiiSi^iiig
tore any alteration could not emanate in the first place from tho m,,,,. ? ..; l '" /
be consequent on a totally different system adopted 'by the Zniul ^olirnm^t. ' "' '""'
'^^fe''S/accoZT"-'' '"!^ '"''-"' '!'' '^*'j»'='=°""'^ ''^- to be rendered : viz.
Account of stores, implements, tools'and clothing .' .' ." ." olTrlS
Accounts of the general provision depot - - . yj .i,-^"
Account of transport. ' " -""""''y-
241. You have stated in the paper wliich has been reati to the Committee that
a eonsuleiable portion ot the accounts are no,v pai.l hv che.iucs upo t" ha •
Jn^tiri's^'""'"" "''"'"' ^-' ''"'"^ Ucommenco.1 to til" ij^d;
242. Is it now complete, ami .1. the hank accounts in fact Ibrtn a check niu.n
he clcpart.nent.--lhe payments are principally ertbcted throuf-h tl e e.li.
.eSkr^oSvz;!r?;l^.S;Jl^:!;L::E^^^^
extent of estahlishment of the commis.iriat n...! not tlrlle m^ilS^: "iKu
euhcr at present <,r at a tuture time, he enabled to furnish the C nnittce ith m'
estimate of uh.t m,,ht be .he probable expense of the commis^ m d^^,! '^J
any convict arrangements, and what is the balance between that est , . u a 1 e
preen expense:_I have no donht that an estiniate upon t.-lerahly ,■ „ 'u
"... t he prepare.!; hut even an estimate of that desJripUon „ ^ | ,r, 't
i h upon ocal arcuuistances, upon the distribution of the troops pri idry
that It would he (hlhcuit to ar-,ve at any satisfactory conclusion. ' ^'
-vts,' cerminiv" ''' """'' '""""'' '" '"'''""'■ '""'' "" "''""''*^ ''' "■^'" "'^ >'"' ^•"" '
24.>- Vou have spoken in that paper which has been read of the ad.iiiional
dut.es uluch are thrown upon the commissariat by reason of the present I o f
M^m^iying p,;ov,.,ons m.d ston. .or non-.nilitary purposes, and of \L ' i ' -
. km« provsjon .or the service by contract ; are'you in possession of any Tr Cl,^
letter tha will show the eliorts that hav been made lor the introduction a In u
practicable o. a contract system, and thereby diminishing tl e umouiU o tori
sent .rom thi. country, and nducmg to some extent the cCmniis at , v ce"!!
I have not that paper hut I will procure it. An extract of an o.H ^ ter Au;;
C.eneial liourke, winch I now pro.luce, has reference to that subject.
['17>c mtncs <hHv:rcdin the mmc, xrhich mis raidasfollmvs:]
liXTHACT of a I...,ter addn.ss.d to the Secretary of the Treasury, by Ma|or-(ienera!
liourke, dated Sno South H„l,s, 8 January i8j^. ■ ^
to l;:,ch'; £ei:r^:.t:::;5;f th::;.:5nt.r;Xt^'"r -^"'''^^'^ "•■?"""■• '^^^-
v.ouMy accomphshed. 11,,. ,u,ml..r of persons, for u.stanee, ui the cu.nnnssunal .Uplirt-
® iiiiiit.
V
*i
M
IITTEE
it to the settled
IS and convicts
and ;!h! latter
3tt!t;ineiits. At
upeiinteiidents,
entirely depcn-
ent vessels are
extent of duty
ether with the
;like reirularity
I, there cannut
lie and etlicient
han by stating
le the accounts
is ; and there-
riat, but must
lit.
: viz.
Monthly.
Quarterly.
Month'v.
general duties
) the stations
iimittce that
1 tliu hank ;
ctlcct early
check upon
niediuiu of
rtaiii fxtcnt,
l)iit ill, that
till' |irc',seiit
"oiiid you,
ttco with an
leart'd tVoiii
ate and the
lair i^roiiiids
depend so
piiueipally,
i> you can '
' additional
111 mode (>('
lil!iciiliy ol'
y I'leasiiry
11, a.s tar as
It of stores
service .- —
letter iVoni
•■J
jor-(ieneiaI
MibiT i'H;}'2,
e necessary
uhl iiidei'd
b.eii pre-
iat depart-
IIH'Ilt,
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
21
?
nicnt, which it is stated was fixed by my predecessor at 51, had been reduced at various
times subsequent to my arrival in this country, so as to consist at the time of the receipt
of your letter of 38 only, in conse(|Ucnce of the arrangements directed by that letter,
I uuticipate a further reduction on the 1st March next, upon which the commissariat
establishment of New South Wales will consist of no more than 29 persons.
The principal matters to which you have been pleased to direct iny attention, are the
discontinuance of the general depot of stores, the suppression of the military chests by
transferring the funds to the banks, and a less minute examination of certain accounts in
the commissariat office here.
With respect to the first, namely, the discontinuance oftlie depot of stores, the Lords
Commissioners of the Treasury may have observed *hat the requisitions have of late con-
tained fewer articles of some descriptions, and a much less amount of others, than used
formerly to be the case. Tenders have been called at varit/iis times, either for the whole or
for some portion of almost every arllcio re(piired by the commissariat; and requisitions have
been made on the Treasery for the supply of such articles only as could not be had here,
or as were offered at an unreasonable ])rice. Their Lordships, however, are quite rioht in
supposing: that the rapidly-increasing commerce of the colony will shortly enable the com-
missariat to |)rocure every necessary article by means of contracts made on the spot.
Their Lordships must be aware, that in a widely-extended and thinly-pojjulated colony,
such as this is, it has been necessary to proceed with caution in arrangements upon which
the regular supply of food to the troops and convicts mainly depended.
With respect to the third point adverted to in your letter, namely, the superfluous
examination of accounts in the deputy commissary-general's office, I have communicated
with Mr. Laidley upon the subject; and their Lordships will perceive, by the Return of
persons intended to be retained on the commissariat establishment from the 1st March
next, that the numerous clerks hitherto employed in the ejiamination of these accounts
have been reduce<l.
1 have to add, that the permanent establishment of the commissariat of accounts has
been fixed as directed by your letter; but it has not hitherto been found possible to appoint
the provisional board which you authorized for the examination of the arrear store and
provision accounts between the Ci.jtb December l8-2S and '24111 December 1830.
The attention of the assistant commissary of accounts was directed to this object very
shortly after the recei|)t of your letter ; but his lest endeavours have not been able to
engage the assistance of persons (pialilied to undertake such a task. The reduction in the
commissary of stores' department, to which 1 have alluded, will probably place out of em-
ployment some persons whose previous habits and knowledge of business may enable them
to proceed advantageously and expeditiously with the proposed examination. I shall not
lose sight of any means of carrying it into i liict without further loss of time, and, as nearly
as circumslances will permit, in the manner which their Lordsiiips have pointed out.
I bei; leave to observe, that 1 have not only found the greatest readiness on the part of
deputy commissary-general Laidley to carry the reductions reenmuu'iided by their Lord-
ships into ellect, but that he has Iiiiiistlf been the promoter and adviser of most of ihose
which toiik place previous to the receipt of your letter; and that he has, on all occasions,
manifested the greatest desire to conduct the business of bis de|iartiiient with the least
possible 'xpeiise; so much so, indeed, that I have found it at times necessary to restrain
his wishes in this respect, lest the public service should sutler by too rapid a reduction.
-Mt). Von state that there is a great ditHciilty in eonipletin« contracts in the
colonies? — There lias lieen ; and in the years 1820 and 1S30, to \^llieil that paper
ret( s, there were very considerable failures on the part of the contractors, a..d
Lilt tor the loresiglit o\ the officer at the head of the eoinniissariat, the military
would have been put to very s^reai inconvenience ; but feeling it a tlifiiculi niatter
lor the contractors to carry tlieir engagements into elfect, he had provided supplies
in case of emeifienci'^, and those supplies were very jirovident, and neither the
troops nor the convicts sustained any inconvenience in this respect.
247. Iheii von think it is doubtful whether such a plan would answer? — The
colony is so nuicli improving, and pi'rsons of property and snbstanco are now
induced to undertake the contracts, that there is a prospect of the system obtainiiii;
<;enerally with advantage.
.'4H. The letter which yon have put in is a reply to a Treasury letter of 1832 ;
can you lurnish a copy ol that letter? — 1 can.
■240. Yon advert in the memorandum to the peculiar nature of the iluties on
which the troops are engaged ; can you state distinctly to the Committee the
prculiarities of the duties of the troops in New South Wales, which render
a griater ainoniit of couimissariat necessary? — The allusion has a Iwotohi
hearing, partly to the peculiar duties of the military wiiich are conse(|ueiit upon
the custody and control over the convicts; all gangs ol convicts are necessarily
cuardtd and watched hy parties of military, and as they are distributed about in
various directions, the expense and dilliculty of maintaining the troops, as well as
the ciuiviels, is of course considerably anginented.
CM. D 3 J50. And
T. Archer, Esq.
26 March 1835.
!' F
22 MINUTES OF EVIDEx\CE IlEFOllE SELECT COMMITTEE
T. Arther, Esq. 2,50. And that is the peciiliiirity in t!ie service of the troops to whicli you
— — — ^ advert? — It is peculiar, inusmucli as there is no other of our colonies which is a
afi March 1835. convict colony.
.'.■ji. Do you conceive that the trcjojjs are distrihuted in smaller parties in Xevv
South Wales and in V^in Dieiiien's Land than in the rest of our colonies? — I
itnagine it is so in New South Wales, because I apfirehend that there arc more
detached stations for military parties in that colony than there are in other
colonies.
•2'^2. Takinti the number of troops, you consider tint they are broken into
smaller bodies in those two colonies than they are generally ?— I believe that to
be the fact.
2/53. You also state that everything required for the ordnance service is supplied
by the commissariat, excejit arms and ammunition? — The connnissariat depart-
ment has hitiierto been chiiriied witii the care of military and other buildings; and
as no ordnance department has been establisiicd in N(!w South Wales, duties very
much like the duties of the ordnance department have been fulfilled in that colony
by the commissariat, and the dcparuiient have been recjuircd to provide, either by
contract or by purchase in the market in detail, all articles required for buiKliui's
for public works.
2.')4. Is not that the case in the colonies generally? — It is the case in the
colonies generally that tiic commissariat provide building materials, &c. upon the
spot, but the duty iias been more cousiderabU' in New South Wales in consctpience
of the luunerous buildings which have lieen commenced there, conse(juently
requiring a larger supply of those articles, and distributed in different directions.
2,')5. So that that creates a substantial distinction in point of quantity between
tiie duties of the commissariat in New Sontii Wales and elsewhere' — It does.
■2't(). Has there not been an engineer officer sent out to take cliarge of the
civil buildings r— The arr.ingement is just now completed.
257. Do you consider that the 4, Sou convicts imder the care of the com-
missariat in these two colonies require more duty from the commissariat than aa
equal number of troops would require? — Decidedly. I will give one instance:
the rations of tlie convicts are of seven diri'crent descrijitions, and each of tiio.se
.seven ration:^ is under moditications according to circumstances. Heretofore the
diHiciiiiy and embarrassment ari>iug out ot the siijiply to convicts has been a sub-
ject ot very great loss to the public, inasmuch as it wa.s almost impossible to give a
correct account of the sui)sistence of the convicts, from so much conlusion tiiat
was unavoidable in the issues, and con.se(juenlly in the accounts.
2.'-,S. Does nothing of that kind apply «ith reterenee to the military? — No ; the
military an all supplied «ith one particular ration, from which there is no
deviatiiHi.
2,>o. -And consequently to observe and regulate those variations constitutes a
very considerable portion of the duty ? — It has in former times been productive of
very ureat emburrassment, but tiie plan of si]b->i,->ti:iL! tiie convicts has bei n iirought
into a certain degree ol lorm ami ^lVstl'm within the last few years, ivhicli has in a
great degree removed the ddHculty.
260. Are there any other duties which the co iimissariat ilischarge with refereuce
to convicts, and not witli reterenee to troop^'- — All the .supplies that are re(piireil
tor the convict'; are provided by the commissariat upon the spot.
2()l. Including many that are not proviiled lor the troops- — Ves, certainlv,
dotlimg and impleiiunts ; t!ie convic ts being many of tlieui employed upon the
road.'i and |)ublie buildings, and all liie tools and implements re(jiiired ha\e been
proviiled lhroUi;li tlie cunmiis-ariat.
2(ij. (an you turnisli llii; Committee v\ith a eopv (jf one of the re(|uisiiions Iroui
New South \V .\Ws, taking such an one a> v\ill atlijrd a fair speiiuieu ol the atlieles
rer|nired in tluit colony? — Certainly. I believe the Committee are aware tliat by
recent arraiigeuK nts manv (jI those articles «ill no louge'r be reipiired fr(<m this
C(juntry ; but in fact the labour ot the eounnissarial will be increased upon the spot,
by th( n pun having there "hat would be others ise sent out by cargo trum this
coimtry.
2(13. Have the commissaries any dutiis to discharge eonuecled witli the otii.-er.s
who are placed over the convicts ? -\o ; they h.ivc im control ovei the anauge-
ments ol the convict service: that dep.irtmeut is under the managemeiil 01 a
supirinleudeiit (jI convicts.
■.!('.}. .As reganls liie pay of iho.sc otiicers i-' — I am not pri'paretl toan-weras to tlie
pay
r
I
.6 March 1835.
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 23
pay of those orticers ; all the money necessary to the convict service is supplied T. Anhii, V.i-q.
tlirouirti the counni'^sariiit.
•j6.'). In Tact you consider the establishment as low as it can possibly be for an
effective discharge of duty, taking all circumstances into consideration ? — Itliink so.
The ofticer at the head of the commissariat is an officer of aj)proved talent, upon
whose discretion the treasury nray reasonal)ly rely ; and as has been observed in
General Bomke's letter, he is liimself particularly anxious to make every fair
reduction of which the service is susceptible.
■2('>6. In the Ueturn which is before the Committee in the Appendix of the
Report of last year, the value of the provisions and stores for military purposes is
stated ; can you furnisii the Conmiittec with the amount of expenditure carried on
through the couunissariat, for convict and other civil purposes :— It appears from
an estimate prepared in the colony, prospectively for the year 1833, that the g'-oss
amount for convict expenditure in the colony is upwards of 82,000/. Against
that sum of 82,000/. it was expected that tiiere would be recovered froui the
colonial government, or from other sources statcil in tlu; estimates, 23,485/.,
leaving tiie net convic't expenditure .')S,,'-,()() /.
2()7. You have stated already that you consider the care of 4,800 convicts,
.supposing that to be the number, much more than equivalent to the care of 4,800
soldiers? — I think so, certainly ; if it vvi;re only in reference to tiie difference of
the rations.
2()8. Can vou give me Committee an idea of the jiroportional difference
between the care ot 4,800 convicts and the care of as many soldiers?— It would
depend so mucii upon local circumstances that it is difficult to say ; it must ilepend
so much upon tiie dispersion of the troops.
2(i(). Taking then) dispersed as they are? — I think an estiuiale might be [)re-
pared ; I will endeavour to form one as well as it can be prepared.
270. Have you any further paper to put in before you coiiclude your evidence ?
— As explanatory of the passage in Cieneral Bourke's letter, 1 wish to put in the
following paper.
{The It'itness delivered in the same, which teas read as follows :]
PROPOSED l)isTi!iBU rioN and Appuoi'hiatuin of thi; Commissahiat Ddi-aiit-
MBN'r, tor Uio Vfiir 1834, \u.:
SyI)Ni;y.
Deputy Commissary-general James Laidley -
Oliici' (it tiu- D('|Mity Conimissiiry-goneral :
Deputy Assi>taiit Coiimussiuy-'l Mowaid
General superintendence.
ijcncra! - - ■ -/ .lont's - . -
roinniissarial ili'rk Ilirkcy . . - .
- - Ditto - - Drumrnond - - - -
(leiicnd Acrdnnls. both arrcar and ciurtnt :
Cominissanut clerk .Mnoclii' \\ ilsou - . -
- - Ditto - - Sktiit' Craig - - . -
Cash ollicc ;
Assistant Coiiiinis-ary-geiu-ral Millnr . - .
Drpiily As>istLiiil ( 'oiiiiiiissary-m'iuiai \N'alkt'r
l)('|iiitv Assistaiil t'i>iiimissaiy-i;ciural bamont
Ciiiniiiissanit <li ik ,1. S. llinilmaisli - . -
Provisions :
D('|)utv Assistant Coniniissary-genernI Arnold
Coiiiiiiissarial olcrk 'I'vrc . . - . .
DilUi - - I'.Uicr - . - - -
. Ditto - - K. iliii(linai>li - . -
Dry Stores :
Drpuly AsMslaiit Coniiiiissaiv-i;('iU'ial Slatlbrd
t Miiiiuissaiial I'Icik liilloraii - - - -
- Ditto - - M'Doii.dd - - - -
Oitto - - Ciri't 11 - - - - .
Supiruiti-'iidiii;^ ollii'iTs at oiit-slatioas :
Di|iuiy Assistant I'oiniiiiMsaiy-geiieral lioweruKui
l)< piity Assihtaut Coiniiii>sary-^;eiit ral lhr(
I) 4
- 'rreasniy departiiu'iil.
- Local coircspoiidi'iice.
- Sclii'diiKs ot tf luiers and returns.
- CopyiiiL; clerk.
- Cash accounts.
- Provision and stores.
- Accountant.
- Pay lists aiul pensioncis.
- liooks.
- (.'o|)yiiii; clerk.
- .Accountant.
- Syihiey ami oiit-staliou accounts.
- Assistant to ditto.
- Storekeeper.
- Aeco intaiit.
- bookkeeper.
- .Sloiekceper.
- Ditto.
f Districts o! Parani.ilta. I.ner-
-I pool, .\l\itle Creek, St. Viii-
[ cent and lllawaira.
J Uliie Abiiintain diNtricI, Windsor
^ and Loun llawkisbiiry.
Deputy
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
I'. Archer, Esq.
aC March 1835.
24
Deputy Assistant Commissary-general Goodsir
Deputy Assistant Commissary-general I'aty -
Penal Settlements :
Moreton Bay
. I Oeputv Assistant Commissary-general Ackroyd
Port Macquarrle|(,^;,,,^j^^.,ri,,^ ,,1^,^,, still -
Norfolk Island
- District of Hatlnirst.
jLower and upp«r
"\ Hunter's river.
district of
eiiieiii.» •
/Deputy Assistant Commissary-general Owen
'ICommissariat clerk Welman
f Deputy Assistant Commissary-general Vaux
" IConmiissariat clerk Stevenson - - -
In charge.
Storekeeper.
In charge.
Storekeeper.
In (•hiiip;e.
Storekeeper.
Commissariat-ofticc, Sydney,"!
19 December 1H33. /
(signed) James Laidky, D.C. G.
On the arrival of Deputy Assistant Commissary-general Kent at head-quarters from
Moreton Bay, another clerk will be discharged.
(signed) J. L., D. C. G.
271. Ciin yon turnisli the Committee with 11 Ueturn of t!ie strcngtli of the com-
missariat tiom the year 182S up to the juesent lime?— In the year i8aS, the
number of persons em[)loyeil in the commissariat was ()'.-,; in the year iSji, tlie
numher uas rediiceti to ,-,i"; in the year 1833, further reduced to :5s persons ; and
from the 1st of Marcli 1834, a still further reduction to 29 persons, being less than
one half of tiie numher employed in the year 1828.
27-'. h it capable of furtiier reiluctionr — It is possible that some small reduc-
tion may be made when the ordnance arrangements are matured; an ordnance
establishment is about to be formed in the colony, and the commissariat may thus
be relieved, but not mueii, fur they will have still to nuike all the purchases
required lor the ordnance.
273. Can you prepare any similar statement with reference to Van Dicmen's
Land ? — 1 can.
274. Are you aware whether there have bien any material reductions there —
No, there have not been, within my recollection, material reductions.
27,-,. Do you suppose that any excess pievails there r— Probably some reduc-
tions mav be (tVected, but the Treasury have not lately given any injtructions to
that effect, beeau>e it was in c()ntemi)lation to establish an ordnance department
there; and it would ikpend nuicii upon the uKide in which that dei)artment was to
be cstabiisiied, what etVeet it would have prospectively upon the couunissariat.
27(1. Is tiiat measure likely to be taken -oon ? — It is now in tiie course of
adoption.
2-7. .As the number in the commissariat department has diminished materially
from 1828 to 1834, iias tiie nund)er of convicts diminished in the same degree? —
The luuuber of convicts has always had a tendency to increase rather than
diminish ; the reduction of the commissariat has arisen mainly out of improved
arrangements in the mode of coniluetiug that branch of the service.
Gciitrai Sir J'fir^iiriiic Moitland, called in ; and Exuinined.
C.iioral -7''^ Vt)U were for some time the (iovernor of Nova Scotia ( — From August
yu V. Miitl.'xl. 182S to .l.iuiiary 1 8 3.4.
27(). Vou see from the n tiuiis the amount of the stall and the force in Nova
Scotia r-^^es.
280. Is it vour opinion that any reduction in eitiier is practicable, witli a due
regard to the i (Keiency of the serv ice "'— I think, scarcely. 'Fhe force Ihere is not so
large as it was bet(.re" the last way with .America ; there were tin'o stationed tliere
four reuimeiits above 1, 1 do strong, now there are four rigimcnts on the present
reduced estahlishmtnt.
281. From the lour regiments in that connnund, you furnish one to New
IJnmswick ? -A <s.
282. ,A detacluui lit to Priuci' I'.duard's Island r—^ es.
S83. Do vou tnruish anything to Nevvfoandlaudr — Nothing to Newfouiuiland ;
a detachiiH 111 to (ape Hretoii.
284. 1- liic iiee(>-iiiv diitv re(|uiitd of tiic troops in that eouiuKuid -ivere, or
is it compaiativelv slight to w'liat it is at homer — During the term ol my command
the soldii IS had ueuerally, but not always, ihree ni^hts in bed. A regiimnl h.is
since liial iieiiod bei u removed.
285. 15ul
y
i*
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
to NfW
'i
!S/i. !iiii
28,'-,. But the posts Imve been diminisheil since that period ?— Yes, of necessity,
since tlie veginient was taken away.
•28(i. You said that there were scarcely any reductions that could be made with
justice to the pubhc service ; did you mean that there were any reductions of any
kind that could be made ?— The matter duly considered, any reduction could,
I thiniv, scarcely be deemed expedient. I am not aware of any that I could
reconnnend.
:287. Are there trooi)s generally stationed at Annapolis? — Yes.
288. To what amount ?— There arc al)out three com[)anies at Annapolis, some-
times more, and there is a detachment of artillery generally there ; the amount ot
force at the post varies a little according to the strength of the regiments, and it is
sometimes influenced by other circumstances : tiie strength of the detaciunents has
probably been reduced since the removal of the 8th regiment.
28t). So that with this reduction you think they have hardly so niuch as three
nights in bed ? — I think not more.
290. But under the circumstances you have mentioned, you consider the force
as not disproportioned to the duties to be performed, and not larger than is abso-
lutely necessary ? — I think not.
2()i. Will you look at the printed Return for the ordnance department, and say
whether you think that there is any reduction that could be etfected in that esta-
blishment with advantage?— I cannot say that there is : the ordnance departnient
is so little under the control and inspection of the general officer, that an ofiicer
of the artillery or engineers would be more competent to ansver this question.
2()2. Will you look over the return for the barrack department, and say whether
you'tiiink there is any reduction that can be efl'ected in tint department? — That
is in the same manner under the ordnance.
203. With respect to any of the establishments at New ^.kunswick, are you
able to speak as to the propriety of niaking a reduction? — My former answer will
apply eipially to New Brunswick.
■21)4. What is your opinion with regard to the necessity jf keeping up the jxists
which have been' reduced, taking the safety of the color.y into consideration? —
I think that there is not too large a force in the coloi.;-, more especially while the
boundary cpiestion ri mains open.
2()> Independently of the boundary question, do you consider that the colony
is overstocked with troops? — No.
206. Contemplating a period of profound peace in Nova Scotia, do you consider
that the posts might be reduced so as to diminish the amount of force necessary
for that colony ?—l'rofound peace may terminate suddenly. I should say, if
ret'erence is not to be had to the local >ituation of tlie North American colonies.
and peace could not be interrupted, still the reduction could not be material.
207. Will you have the goodness to explain that answer with regard to local
situation ? — I allude to the extensive and exposed frontiers of the North American
colonies. _ • ir i- •
2()8. Are the military employed with regard to local gaols? — les; m Hahtax
and some other towns.
2i)(1. Do yon think that necessary ? — Prisoners have frequently escaped from
the colonial gaols, sometimes aided from without. Prisons better constructed
would diminish, no doubt, "r remove the necessity.
}oo. What is the amount of force that is employed over the gaols?— It varies
according to circumstances.
■JO I. Is it the system of the colonies to employ the troops to guard other posts
than those re(juired lor army purposes and army stores- — I have stated that they
furnish sentinels over the gaols when retiuired by the civil authorities to do so.
502. Are the military employid in Nova Scotia, taking the (luestion generally,
to perform duties which civil olHcers are here employed to pert'orm ? — The military
in the colonies, as in C.reat Britain, m.iy he recpiired to act in cases of riot. T'hey
assist (and have rendered most important service) when tires occur. May he
called on to assist in the apprehension of smugglers, and such other duties, wiiat-
ever tluy may be termed, as the military are recpiired to perform in (ireat
Biilaia. 11
5();5. If the colonial government were to provide tor the due custody ot the pri-
soners there, and for the ordinary police purposes, might not a considerable portion
of ihe troops that are employed now be dispensed with ? — No.
0.1 1. E 304- l>i>
Gcnerat
-Sir P. Maittand.
sG Marcli 1835.
General
Sir i'. Maitland.
a6Marcli 1835.
26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
■504. Do you think the amount of nourly u roii'micnt is cinployo.l in those ikilies ?
- No not in "uaniin^ the jjiiols ; nothing like it ; piMluips 20 men.
30 'J. There are r,(> men on dctrxiiment iit Anii:»[)olis ; is that detaclnncnt neces-
sarv ?— Yes, I think it very neeessary. ■ , , .
30ti. There is a detachment of 275 at Frcdcricktown; do you consider that
necessary ?— Yes, certainly. • 1 », »
■507. There arc Joo men at St. John s. New i:runsvvick ; do you consider that
necessary ?—Ves, certainly. ,, . , . kt u -i 1
•}()H. There is a detachment (jf 27 men at St. Andrew s, New Brunswick ; do you
consider tiiat necessary?— Yes. _
■?o() There arc 4() men at Cape Breton ; are they necessary .— Yts.
310 There are (i4 men at Prince Eiiward's Lsland ; ilo you consider that
necessary?— It is a separate novernment, and the governor reports that lie coulu
not do with less. He askc<l for an aiidilion when the number was less.
311. Do you eonsiaer thai: 1,30" o'" ".^oo men are too many tor Halifax and
its dependencies? — No. • • 1 1
51' Are those answers aiven with relerencc to the jirescnt duties and employ-
ments'of military in that country, considering civil as well as military duties?—
Those answers are given in reference to the state of things as I lell them.
■M 5 Could not a reduction of about 50 or Uo men he made it the colonial
oovenimcnt were to take charge of the gaols by a local police or otherwise:—
TakiiK' into consideration that you must always have troops oil iluty ready to act
in ease" of tire, disturbance, or other casualties, I think not; tor the reasons also
of a more L'cneral nature wiiich I have given. , ,t n ■ i 1
•-14 Tlial is embracing in your view tiie circumstance that New HrunswicR ana
No'va iScotia arc not insuhir in their position, but as being continental states, you
do not tliink tiiat any reduction could be safely made ?--l think not.
i\K Is there not an etVectivc ami popular force m New Brunswick called out
on enier.nMicies? -I ccnclude this (piestion jioinls to the militia. iliu mihtia ot
New Bru^nswick assemble one day in the year. They had tour days ill the year
assigned for training: the legislature has reduced the number ot days to one
onlv. This is the amjuut of time allotted to their instruction. .
■illi Have you any knowledge of the circumstance as to wiiether the Americans
o-rthe other side of the frontier have an e.pial or superior descniitiou ot popular
force disposable?-! think that our militia is fully e.pial to the American inihtia;
of course the latter is far more numerous. ■ , .
■n- Our popular force tiien being equal to the popular torce ot the Americans,
have the Aniericans an equal or inferior regular force to ours upon the same liner'
—The amount of tiieir regular force stationed on the line varies ; but it must be
recollected that our American colonies present a trontier ot about 2,000 miles m
extent : that an enemy can concentrate and make his attack on any part ot that
frontier when and where he pleases. . , •, , . ., 11
- 1 8 Are you not of opinion that it may he economical with regard to the wliole
of the armed force, not considering wiio is to pay them, and cNpechcMit, to embody
for certain i.. liods of llie year part of the militia torce ot New Brunswick and
Nova Sco..a?- Labour is so valuable in the colonies, that wi'.h the pay you must
-ive the militia to make it proportionate, I think it woul.l not be ecouoinieal.
" !!() Would it he expedient, bearing in mind the ellicieucy ?— Hicy certainly
uould not he as eilicient a. a regular lorec; but I coiiMder the plan as allogeliicr
iiiipraclicable. . , , , , i- .1 . ,1 .
3'o Did your experience in New Brunswick lead you to believe that that
species' of force was unpopular with the people of New Mrunswick ? -'rhe people
of New Brunswick constitute that 'orce. The neglect ot their larms and their
li-!ieries, which the emh(jdying of it would necessirily involve, is an obstacle to its
being popular with tiicm.
]
H
.**•
t
rEE
e duties ?
3nt iieces-
iitler that
isiiler that
k ; do you
sicler tlmt
,t lie could
alifax and
id employ-
duties ? —
JUI.
lie colonial
lerwise? —
ady to act
lusons also
iswick and
;tates, you
called out
i inililia of
in the year
ays to one
Americans
ot' popular
;an militia ;
Americans,
same line ?
it must be
oo miles in
lart ot" that
() the uiiole
, to embody
inswick and
ly you must
)uiical.
ey certainly
3 uhogellier
^'e that that
The people
IS and their
bstacle to its
)
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 27
Marlis, '.^V >lic Mortii, 1835.
SIR JOHN BYNG, Hi THE CHAIR.
Licut.-Colonel Horatio George Broke, called in ; and Examined.
321 YOU have been some time on the stafTat Nova Scotia ? — Yes. Lieut.-Col.
32'-'. How long?— I was t' jre from October 1 S3 1 till the end of July 1834; "" ''atio u. Bro ke.
nearly three years. March i8t;
32J. In What situation?— As dejmty quartermaster-general. 3» re js-
324. You have also been for some "time on the stall' of that department in other
stations? — I have.
32,'-,. From your stall" situation in Nova Scotia you are of course aware of the
distrii)uti()n of troops in that province ? — Yes, I am.
321;. You are aware of their preci.se amount ?— I could speak to them nearly,
I should say.
327. Are you of opinion that any of them could be reduced, either in amount of
force or entirely ?— No ; I think they are all as low as they ought to be kept; all
the detachments are decidedly as low as they ought to be, and it has been the
object to keep them so.
■32S. When did you leave Halifax?— I left Halifax on the 1st of August last.
32(). At that time had the Stii regiment been removed to the West Indies? — It
had been removeil a twelvemonth or more.
330. Did the removal of that regiment occasion a difficulty in the performance
of the requisite duties ?— Very great difficulty; so much so that the detachments
ttiat were absolutely necessary to be kept up were obliged to be reduced more than
I believe they liad ever been ; some of the detachments tiiat had always been con-
sidered desirable to be kept in tiie country were altogether called in at that time,
and the artillery were called upon to take that share in the duties of Halifax itself,
and the harbour posts, which they had never done betore.
331. Was an api>licalion consequently made by Sir ArchibaUl Campbell to have
that regiment replaced? — An application was made immediately by Sir .^l■cllibald
Campbell.
332. Did the .S3d regiment arrive jirevious to Sir Colin Campbells arrival ? —
Yesi the S jd reiiimeiit arrived before Sir Colin Campbell.
■^y^. WUvn (lid Sir Colin Campbell arrive ?— Six or seven weeks before I left.
354. M' hat are the number of regiments now in that command and its depen-
dencies, including New Ihunsniek": - hi N'ova Scotia and its dependencies, in-
cluding New lirunswick, there are four regiments.
J J-,. In the amount of the military stall' there do you think any reduction, how-
ever small, would be practicable -—I think it is utterly imjiraclicable since the
reduction of the deputy adjutant-general. I think it is impossible that the staff
duties can be carried on wilii any further reduction.
33{i. 'I'here are several charges for boats and boats" crews ; are they absolutely
necessary :— I do not think there is a boat employed which is not necessary.
'I'hey were all under mv control, as having the charge of the harbour posts.
■}"57. There is an allowance of 720 /. ft>r clcigymen for performing divine ser-
viceVal how many .-talions is there a clergyman?— I am not aware of the number
of clergymen; 1 know there is a clergy num at llalilaN. I am not able to say
whethei- there is any military chaplain appointed at oilier stations besides IJahlax ;
but i know that at each statical divine service is perfurmed.
33S. What pists were discontinued when the lamibcr of troops were reduced
bv the deiiaituie of that rruinient?— That at Annapolis, for a lime ; (it had been
rel.laced nheii I left Halifax;") and that at Win.lsor, which bi'.'! "»t I'^'i
replaced . ami I l.( g al.so to obscr\e, the duty of the detaclmicnt ut ^ ink Uei.nuhl
was taken by the arlillerv. That is a harbour post.
3.;(), How many men were employed generally at \ ork Redoubt (— 1 hey
u\eia'"ed "eiieiallv 20 men ; a subaltern and 20 men.
o.u. ■ i^'-5 340- llov.
28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Lient Col 340. IIow lonp did any outposts continue unoccupied ?— Annapolis and Windsor
tloraiw 0. Ihoke. continued unoccupied from the departure of tlie 8th refjinient, ahout June or July,
till the arrival of the 83d regiment in July in the following year, when Annapohs
gi Marcl. iS35- was rc-occupicd.
■]4i. They were vacant a year? — \ca.
34.2. Did any inconvenience arise from these posts being vacant during that
tinif- — No inconvenience arose during that period.
343. How many men were employed in Windsor?— A subaltern and .20 men
344. There were no complaints in consequence of these posts being unoccupied?
—No. . , .
345. No inconvenience having arisen during the tune they were unoccupied, do
you consider it is ahsolutelv neces.sary that they should be occuj)ied?— I consider
It extremely desirable that" Anunpolis should be occupied. It is at a very con-
siderable distance, a distance of ijo miles, from Halihix ; and in the event ot
military assistance being required, all that country at that distance being so lar
removc'd from Halifax, of course a considerable length ot time would elapse m
sciuliii" troops; and in the event of any additional assistance being required in
St. John's or New Brunswick, they can bt immediately passed over by steam-boats
across the Hay of Fuiuly to New I3runs'.,ick. , 1 ■ 1
346 You have given" an opinion that no reduction should take place in the
number of troops employed in Nova Scotia; is that wiih reference to the internal
wi-nts of the colony itself, or with reference to external atYairs r— It is witli
reference to the wants of tiie colony and its dependencies. There is always a cap-
tain's detachment at I'rince Edward's Island, and a captain's detachment at Cape
lirelon- with these and the other detachments, there are not more men lett at
head-quarters than tiiere ought fairly to be, to take the duty without its pressing
too hard upon the men. .
347. Then the opinion has no reference at all to any question ot hostihties wiiii
any other power?— Decidedly not. .
348. Do you think 1,400 men are required at Hahfax tor the duties ot that
station? — Decidedly. .... . i»
34.). Without reference to tiie line of frontier winch it is necessary to guard .
— \cs, without any reference to the frontier. _
3.'.,) Were the miliiia called out .luring tlie time you were there r — No, they
were not , except for one or two days, to be inspected by the inspecting field
officer. .... ^ ,, ,.,-
3'-,i, You have never seen them?— I have seen only the militia ol llaliiax ;
I liave seen the Halifax militia occasionally, when they have volunteered their .ser-
vices on occasions of sham lights. On such occasions they have taken a part in
the sham tight. r .• 5
3V2. D" y"U know whether there is any regular toree on the American Irontier ?
— 'I'liey have a post on our frontier. What the luimber of mm is I do not know ;
1 imagine not more than 300. _ ■ v i> • 1
-53 On the whole line of frontier?— Yes, on the frontier ot New Hrunswick.
I speak not from havinu been there iuy^i^(, but Irom having heard it repeatedly
Irom oflicers who have been to the |)osts.
3.-,4. Have they any militia force on the frontier ?— No, they have no militia
force tinbodied. ., • - i , , 1
35',. Is the militia fmci' a popular force m Nova Scotia r—1 should say it i>,
certainly. . . , ,
3-,ti."How are the otHcrs and men paid when embodied .'—1 hey are paid by
a vote of the House of Assembly.
357. At what rate?- 1 cannot say ; I have never known them embodied at all.
Vr.S. Could you, except by compiilHoii, obtain their servic- .. at the same rate
of pay which you uive to Ikiti-h soldiers ?— Not the whole body ot them, 1 should
think hut 1 conceiv.- that in the event of a war von would always be able to
raise voluntarily a very considerable force of the miliiia. I ilo not imagine the
woole body would turn out at tliat rati; of pay.
3V) Is" not liir pay w rv inferior to thai uhieh ihey can obtain by lahotir or !)y
any work as arlizans or labonivrs?— The pay is very inferior to what can be earned
l)\ artiAuis. I'll the country there is so ureal a scaieity ot money thai the agn-
ruhur.il labourers are always obliged to receive a very consideral)le poitiou ot
tlieir pav in uoods.
' ■ 3(10. Are
'A
*^
;;(i(i. A 10
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 29
3f)(). Are there not a considerable number of j)erson3 unemployed as artizans Ljeut.-Cnl.
or lal)ourcr.s durinf; a portion of the year, from the severity of the climate r — Ihrutio O. Broke.
Yes, during the winter season. "" ' T"
361. Are there not also a considerable number of unemployed cmij;rants who 31 March 1035.
would be glad to enlist in the militia force?— The greater portion of the emijiranls
who visit Nova Scotia are Irish, and arrive there under very mistaken ideas of what
they are to find. I have no doubt a proportion of tliem wouUI readily enlist in the
militia, in any way in which they could fjet immediate provision. Tiiey arrive out
there in considerable numi)crs, bein;; totally mistaken as to what they are to ex-
pect, for in fact there is nothing to be done for emigrants in Nova Scotia. There
are a great number who arrive there every year, who come ilircct, anil tiierc are
many more who are driven there by shipwreck oti" Capo Breton and the eastern
coast, all of uhom (iiid their way to Halifax, and as there is no possible employ-
ment for them in the province, they are obligetl to be pushed on as fast as possible.
These who have money generally nlake their way to the United Stales ; but as thac
is the case with few of them, it "is a heavy tax upon the inhabitants of Nova Scotia
to provide for emigrants of that description, and therefore a great number of them
would readily enlist as a matter of desperation ; but if they had any money they
would not.
■_){y2. Then taking tliat into consideration, and taking into consideration the
difficulty of finding employment for emigrants or other labourers at all seasons
of the year, in consequence of the climate, do you think there would be any doubt
of finding a sufficient number of men for the militia at as low a rate ot pay as
British soldiers ?— Emigrants witliout money would eidist ; but I think it would
be against that feeling of independence which the old colonists have, to enlist, unless
war were to break out. I think then there would be a very strong feeling, a feeling
of attachment to their country, which v\ouUl induce them to enlist, independent of
the pecuniary inducement.
363. Bearing in mind that the service required would not be a permanent
service as in the line, but merely for a limited ptriod as in the inililia, do you
think there would be any dilliculty in obttiming persons to enlist? — To what period
does the ([uestion refer ?
3(14. Say five years ? — I tliink there would be more difficulty tiian in this
country. I think it would be more difiicult, because those persons who would
readily e>;list are chiefly to be found about Halifax. Tliey are not to be found in
the country.
3()-,. Do you mean to say the facility of raising any militia would not be
aniong the natives, but the strangers of the colony ?— Certainly, e.\ce|)t during
a war.
3(it). And that ''acility would naturally be very precarious ?— Certainly.
367. Supposing the experiment were tried, and it succeeded to any exteiit in
obtaining the service of a number of persons in the militia, do you, in a military
point of view, see any objection to employing a proportion of that force, and releas-
ing an ((luivalent proportion of the regular force of the country ?— If it uere pos-
sible to have the militia as perfectly train..d as our militia uere during the late war,
1 should see no objection to a certain portion, but I doubt that being |)iaiticable.
I do not think you could find officers (|ualified for the militia ; and for that
reason I have veVy strong doubts indeed about their becoming efficient.
jtiS. Was not the excellence at ^^hicll the militia arrived in the late war occa-
sioned by their being embodied for .-everal years?— UncpRstiouably.
^Ch). "Was it ever suggested to you, er have you ever turned your attention to
the point as to the |)racticability of raising a colonial corps in tlie Canadas for the
.services of the colonies esclusively ? — No, I never considered that (piestion.
570. What is your opinion of the practicability and efficiency t)f a corps raised
in Canada for the especial service of that colony ?— I should very much doubt
whether the duties could ever be carried on so salislactorily as by the Irooiis of
the line.
371. Will von give your reason? — I think the duties would always be bitter
carried on in a young eoluny by troops of the line, who have not any of those local
feelings or altacliments which might occasionally iufiuence tlie militia.
■]72. Supposing a corps were raised oi eniigiuiit;^ ui olhi r persoi>s who would
enlist for the spetMal service of the colony alone, do you think lliere would lie any
dilficully in raising such a corps; and it raised, would there be any objection in
eniployi'u"' then: to a certain extent with the troops of this couulry ? — If tliey were
o.ii. " t^ 3 "'''l
30 MIMITKS or EVinUNCK BKlOllE SELECT COMMirTEE
, • , r . well oIVk-occI, unci in u snu.U proportion to ti.c troops of the line, 1 then shonhl sec
nJri't.^r. :: LSetionJ-ut everything clepen.is on .he olho-in,. "j;;; ;;-'-, ^ P-
po.ition, it ..pp. ai> to n.e, il Ihev «i''v nn>e.l li.MU those ennj;u.nts « ho n fio n^
;>. ^.aren .835. , here hnV thev are n.istaken in their views, un.l uouUi he ^<^";ly ''-;;''-
servie... il wo.,1.1 u,.u,nnt very n.ueh to enhsi..,!r th.^ sun.e el.tss ol nun that you
wouUi i)iol)al)lv Ket hy enlistment in tliis eoiinlry. . . ,
Jl a loree. it it «as s.>»V,eiently ottlccre.i ? Do you thu.k su.h aloreeeonl.l hera.se
fo le sc'rv ce of .he eolony ? -I think it would he very ohjee.u.nahle ; .h.nk .1
H^n 1 he very .hftienit .0 hrhif- a eorps so eon.po.e.l into .hse.phne. I tlnnk the
Clus ..I perscL trou. whon, von woul.l he ohli^ed to ra.se that eorps a.;e men who
e» ou iith .he idea «t teeli.-.., the.nselves p.rteetly at l.herty. .nost o. .hen. .lac
£ hmw olV.he .•es,r..in..s o. soeiely uhieh ihey a... suhieetnl ... .n ihe.r ow
n,n.?.,y, and I think .he.e would he extre.ue di.tie..lty .n d.se.pl.n.nj; a eorps so
■ ''"'"ir'would "«.t pcnerully those who enlist he the least industrious and the
worst clmiucteis ?— Certainly. • ,1 -j 1^ .inU,
375. A.ul eonse.,ue.Ulv less desirahle and less scrv.ceahle .--Cer.a.nly.
5?(i. Fro... vour exp(Vienee as a n.ihtary ...a... have you .u.t to.nul .ha when
pe;s..,s ot .hai eha,aeter have enlisted, the.r halu.s are so ehanj;.;.! I'y "'<■ ";-
cipimo of the serviee. tha. ih.'V hecon.<3 totally chllere... chan.cte.s !» "hat ey
«m.hefo,e.hev enlisted ?-As lonu as .hey a.e under renula.-d.sc.phne ; i ..t .
wil he .e<ollee.ecl that ge..erully. exeept on those oeeas.o..s where. reunne.Us o
men me .aised at o.,et^ w hen old olKcers and non-eou.nnss,c.ncd otheers are sent
U. he . ou. « e., eome in hy sn.all nun.hers at a ,i...e i...o tl,e re^u.en.s o the
ne a.e d.seipline is .hn.u.lu.ul .h..rou,,hly estahhshe.l, a.ul they h.,cl hen.-
Ives ohlijiecl at as. .0 how .0 that discipline. There .s .,0 ques.u.n .n that cw,
or.lvi.-> wiMi^i.i ... ,1 I.,„,t > til. Ill M-l'llllI I 1(>
that ma.iv o." .hose who have any
niil.iral "oo.l sense ahont tlu 111, Iron, seeing
the
that nia.iv 01 uiose «.iu n.m any m..i...... ^ ■■ ,11 , „
cxan.ple-heiore .heir eves that those who are well eon.luete.l an.l who a.r a.e,.
ahl,. .0 cliseipli.,e .n-t h.Vwa.-d, while., on .he eon.rary, others arc; eons...,,tly s.,hject-
ing thcmseUcs t.r punishn.en.. would heeo.ne retonnec. and exeeechn^ly t-ood
soldie.s and Jloocl nienih.'r> ol s.ieiely. .1 . ;,i „,.
-7 A.e Vhe elass of en,i;;.an.s who eome ou., ol .hat desenp .on. that either
from' a'.'e or size you would ohjec. to enlist ... .h.s eount.y t;en<.allv : -1 here .ire
„Un.v to whon. one would .nake no ohjee.ion as .0 ..,;;e u.- s./e eo.,m,^ .on, Irc-
au.l "hu. a ...-ea. n.nnhe. of tl.en, with hn-e fam.hes; a.ul .1 you enl.st .he.se .„en,
eveiv n.an who is . ..li-.ed c;,.ails a., .i.i.litio.u.l l.nrthen upon .he couutry.
.5-S A,e .here no. a .,u.„h. r ol voun;. n.e.. at.aehe.l .c, .he; tannh.'s who eou.c
,„„•'„ ho n,i«ht p.-ohahlve.,list-: Is it .,ot the p.ael.ee tor h.m.he. that all .Is
„,, „h..s, vounAuul olcl, eon,e o..t toL-e.her ?- heheve .t .s ... ..m,.y n.s.anees
-„ \,e .iu^re no. x....n- nu., m llu)se famil.es who would he l.kely .0 e.,h.t
iu the"Kii>^-s .serviee :-"-Th..... a.v so.ms hut tiu' proportion .s .,ot hu.ire.
jS... 1).7 vcu, think it p.-ohahle .hat th. Nou... .uen who ^o cn.t o." .hat .he
eniUnts who go .u.t to Nova Scotia, would volunUe,- a. .he |>ay ol the rc-ular
.rocii.s?— Some of liuin, who have no money. .
■L S,mp.)sn,- (ioN.mu.enl slun.hl .liei.le on l.y,nf^ the expe,-..„ent, do you
see any ni h "rv ."hi.r.ua, to .!,.■ na.u.e ..f tiu' fo,ce ? -One ureat ohject.on see
an..cs r.M..aclouhtwhe.!u,,cn,h.Kly.u,.lh*' cups at o..ee hem those .uae.als,
you .•ould ever have .hem eliicien., s., as take .he pla.-e o. ,e.une.,l. of I- ' ' .
^ .;S .. A.e ...a.,v ol the Kin-i's ..•o<,ps lu.w ,1, .Nova Nol.a en.pU.y. .1 .0 h.tus
vvh eh i., .his e.;u.,.,v a.r .■ousi.l. ...I civil .h.li.'s ; s.^ch as fiua.-d..,s fl^u.K >>>
puliee, or auNthin^ o that de-e, .ptuni, ha-i.n t.. anvihn.^ .hat ,s ^ene.ally co. -
Semi u.il..a.ych.,v, as ...ar.l.n!; s...... or as ,.....d. :~- I h- r.. a.e so....-..ards
over .laols, la.t .here a.e .,.,. many men so cLiployed.
iS'; Y.H. have slat. . I, .hat in vour oi'"""" '^ <-"n'« ""^I't ,<■ .a.s.d ot .he
unc^..M.l..ve.l e...if.,a.,ts in N..va Scot.ar Yes. it n.i.ht he .a.sed hy .ieu-res.
3S.I. Th.)seuncn,plov..l .,.nu..a.ts are |n .sons wl... have .-one out horn ih.s
ceunilrv iin.ler the inll... nee of laNc expeelati..ns - - I'.rnsely.
.5S,-,: Co...e<,uently. whc, they anne .,. the colony tluy a.e .l.s.pp..,n.ni nun .^
~^^:. What, in.l..|a.s..,lMate ot atlai.s, wlun ihey are no. enlisted in tl|e
n.iitarv Icee, nsnallv hce.,..,. s ol these pe.sons-r -Ihey '"■'^^"•"^'^, ^:7;','" \' .';•
n,a„.lv- n ,!h t„wn of llahh.x : dun..;, ihe sumnur ther.' are e<,ns,untly se 1 -
cr.ption ,.u,.l.., ^^..h a v.cu ... ,et.,nj, the.e ...en sent ....wa,.l. 1 u - a e
1
I.
shnuhl see
1(1 ilic pro-
lio in ^oliif^
to I iilrr llie
til lliat you
)l()yincnt of
iltl liiriiiscd
; I iliiiik il
1 tliink the
re men who
f thiiii j;lad
1 Uii'ir own
il corps so
)us and the
Illy.
I ihat wlicn
l)y (lie dis-
) whut they
)lini' ; l)ut it
rciiiincnts ot"
L'crs arc sent
li'.'iits of the
y lind tlioin-
in tliat case,
II seeing the
lo arc anieii-
mlly Mihject-
nhnj'ly good
II, that cither
f -There are
iii; (ii)in Irc-
-t these men,
itry.
Its who conic
-< tliat all its
■ iii>tanccs.
kely to enlist
iic.
or tliat the
I' the refiular
mint, <lo you
hjeclion I see
ose materials,
ot liic line,
ycd in (hitler
iiiif uaols, as
;ciierally c(mi-
3 some {guards
raised ot the
ile!»rees.
out Irom tlii>
ipniiitcil III! n y
.Milisted in the
a sevi're tax,
constantly suli-
(I. riicri- ari'
exertions
I.
ON MILITAUV LSTAIiLIS'IMKNTS IN THK COLONIES. ,}.
lilVerent parts of th(! conntry, where they may
ily disposed to as>,ist themselves hy any
cxorlioiis nuH
Ic to send them Into i
Ijeut.-Cdl.
lluraliu (J. Hroke.
hnt those who are rea
procure labon
menus, keep workini» on n
United Stales. Theio arc suoMriplinns mat
til thev net generally tiiroii'^h New
nruns«ick into the
lu constantly, and iiidividnals yivc
31 M;irch 183J
assistance to lamilies to send them out ol the country into the United States, so
that they lind that .^encrallv hy the close of autumn, there are not a great iimny
that have arrived in the spring or summer that have not somehow or other tou.ia
tlieir »ay out of the country. Those who remain mvariahly hi.d their way to
Halifax in the winter, knowing it is the only phue where they can look for charity,
and hecome an extremely severe tax upon the miiahilanls.
'j87 Adverting to the circumstance that the great body of them escape Irom
Nova Scotia, and lind their way into ( mmtrics where lahour is dear, and where
conscduenlly they can turn their lahour to advantage, do you tlnnk that the con-
dition of that class of emigrants would he improved hy the adoi-taa. ol the plan
which has heen sn-gested, namely, their enlistment in a colonial corps ?- I should
say that il would lake a .•..nsi.lerahie time to form a colonial corps, masmueii as
von ^M.uld only induce those to enlist who found that they had no poss.Uihly ot
Irettin.. inland, in.iMnncI, as they -ome cait to he iii.h pendent ; and .1 they possihly
can he independent, they «ill noi enlist. 1 am .lispo.ed to heheve that . yon
enlisted 5" '"^'i in the spring, you would lose J.^ within the next six months hy
desertion". I helieve the majority of all the men you would enlist m thai way
would, wheneverlheyiiad n'loney in their pockets, desert, and would eventually
entail a very severe expense upon the Ciovcriimenl.
58S Vou have stale.llhalannmherofdes.ilions would prohahly take place
in the event of the formation of a colonial corps; can yon .luote any historical
circumstance in supnorl of that opinion ?-There are too many desertions Imni the
reiiiments of the line stati.ined there ; and it is considered not right to keep
a rcimenl in New Ikunswiek, I.eing close to the l.oundary, more than three years,
andl.y the expiration of that time it is found ihal they hegm to desert, sometimes
in numhers; and therefore I am salislie.l, if that is the ease u.th the rcgunents of
the line, that it would he in a lenfohl degree the case with men who are generally
,,„i.rants of the hmest class of society, and who have gone to that coun ry with
u vi^w of gelling in any «ay they can into liie hack selllements ot tiie <;''"" '7.""^
heii.' independent. I am satisfied that whenever those men had .5*. m thur
'''i^t:^Zt':''L a regiment was raised in Nova Scotia during the late
war? — I am not aware ot that. „ , 11 1 1 i,«
.500. Do vou conceive that the employment of such a co onial corps would be
lesL cosily than the employment of Hrilish soldiers ?- -Decidedly not : much more
""^'ioTriHlerany circumstances r-If you are lo pay them as British tro;)ps, I am
satisfied tlu; deser\ions alone would render them inlinilely more expensive than the
emi.lovmeiu of regimenls of Ihe line fnmi this country. . xt ii '..i.
•u -■ W (Rild not llK.se desertions be contlned to ihe stations in New Brunswick
nunelhan lo any other part ? X'ertainly not; there would be more desertion rom
New Brunswick, but there are plenty of iacilities lor getting out ot Nova Scolia.
.^,,5. Do vou think there would be any ddVicully in raising a eerlain number ot
nin, i 1 Ireland tor a colonial corps of that sort for a limited service, to ti" <'"t tor
,., ,„. , . years -—I daie say it would not he dilVuult, but that corps must he kep
a very considerable time in "this eountiy, ! should say several years, betore it could
he considered til lo send out there ; and I do think il wouU be a very unadvisabe
measure, inasmncl. as I believe that the majority ot people who enhs.ed lu iha
corps would enlist uith the positive intention to desert when ihey goi out lo Nova
^'"^M. Supposing a colonial corps were established with the same pay as a British
coip sdoes it not follow as a matter of course that, taking mlo consideral.o. It
relief necessary for British troops, there must be a considerable saving to this
country from tlu. einployinent of such a coU.nial force?- ihe only expense .aved
woehl be siiniily the conveyance ot the legiment. .
■m Do you not tak.^ into consideration also the lunnber ot troops in this conn-
try .1 ieh are necessary lu be kept up in or.h;r to relieve the troops m the colonies ?
-If you have tour regiments of the line in Nova scolia and New Br ins«ieK, ad
if yon witiidraw one and establish u coh.nial corps, and (,ay that at the same latt,
I see no diminulion ol'expense. ^ . j^^^^
o.ti. ^4 •^■' ■
12 MlMUTliS OT' r.VIDliNCK nKroUF. SET-r.CT COMMIITEE
Lieut..Ciil
3i)(i. I low ol'ltii iiru llic ri'v'imi i
lis ol' iIk; line ri'lievcd in Nomi Si-otia? --In
JIuraliu (i. lUutu. iiboiit lo years ; I believe tlio yKlli, wiiich is comiii.n limne ll>i.>. year, lias liu.n out
ai iMnrch Ifyj
!!
R. n'. Ifiiv, Esq.
1(1 years.
■j()7. Would not the oii;auiz«ti(in ofsiicli a eorps at once begin wilii the xpense
of orfjaiii/inn a new refiinienl, anil iIk; bounty of tnlislinenl ?- V es, eerlainly.
3()S. WiKilil it not iilso ailti tlie reiliictiuii of u regiment of the line, und their
several pensioim r — Certainly.
3()i). Sup|)osini» the ulVicers not to have their lialf-pay, but to be transferred to
the new regiinenl ? — 'I he ex|)ens»' would then be reilnced in proportion to the
number of olliiers tran^feriiii.
400. Arc yon ucipminlcd with the conslitntion of the eommissuriat estniilish-
nieiit at Nova Scotia ? — 1 know exactly the eoiniHisition of it.
401. M hat class of persons urea;ipointed coinmissaries-fienciul in that country?
— One of tiie regular deputy commissarynenenils is sent out there Irom thi»
country. It is u deputy coimnissary-generars post.
Robert II tlliam Ilaij, Ksi]., Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies ;
further I'.xamini d :
40.'. M'll.XT is the uiimunt of force of Newfoundland ? — The umount of force
for the year iS;;;} was jijj rank and file. In tiie year iH,54, as appears by the
Consolidated lleiinn which" is before the Committee, "it was lower; Jjli rank und
rtle.
40.;. What is the dislributioii of force in Newfoundland r— I have obtuined this
distribution fioin the Adjutant-general's ollice, and I will now give it in.
I I'idc Appeiulix.|
404. What i> liie governor's salary of Newfoundland, and that of his immediate
predecessor? — The governor's salai-y of Newfoundland at present is 3,1)00/. a
year; that of Sir Thomas Coehriine, his immediate predecessor, was 4,j()o /. until
l.SjS, when it was rediieiil to .;,n(i()/. Ikfure that time Newloundlimd was a
naval station, and the command was conjoiiied with that of the admiral. 'Ihe
salary, therefore, us siovernor was small, varying from .300/. to i.ooo/.
40.',. Does that salary inchide all iiiofessional pay ? -The officer who coinmunds
there is a capt.iin in the" navy, who does not enjoy his half-pay.
4(i(i. Is there a governiiiei)t liouse :— Tiiere is a i;oveniment house at N( w-
foundiand, tlie building of wiiich eommeneed as lai' back as iHj,-,. In conse<pieuce
of u report from tiie govirnur as lo the dilajiiilated state o» the house, an estimate
was sent home, but leJeetLd as being too high. A snbsecpient estimate was sent
in, wiiieli amounted to between S, Olio/, and i),i)iio/., and that was agreed to. It
was alterwanls ascertained tiial there were so many accessaries rei|uireil to com-
plete the house, whieli had not been iiiehiikd in the original estimate, as would
amount to a sum of neaily equal, \'u. S.oou /. or ij.ooo/. That was greatlv
objected to, and the major jmrt of the second additional estimate was taken otj*.
Mtiil liiere were some ile'ms whicli had not been taken into account, and which
must be jiaid for. The whole expense of that house has been considerable ;
I siiould say not less than i'),iii>o/.
407. Was it lurnialieil ': — There are certain rooms hiniished in the government
house in all our colonies ; the rooms for presentation, and those only.
408. The rest are furiiislied at tiu' expense of tiie governor?- -They are.
401). rroni what fund i> the governor's ^ahl^y paid:- The governor's salary is
paid Irom the custom.*)' duties.
410. Is there not a vessel or yaciit for the governor's use at Newfouniiiand : —
Yes, there is, and it was first esiahlished when the udmirul who commanded at
Ne«fouiiiilaiiil, ceased to be the governor uIm). It was then determined, as it was
inteiuled tlial a King's slii|) sliouiil no longer be kept permanently on tlie station,
that it would be found nicessaiy to have a vessel of some size under the governor's
orders, to enable him to communicate with Nova Scotia and with the distant jiarts
of tiie government, there being no roads or next to no roads in the island ;
and also to convey the judges on their circuits, more es[iecially to the coast ot
I,ahr;ii!or.
411. What is the amount of expense?— The contract for the vessel is •.',300/.
a year.
^\2. Could not a smaller vessel, oiu of less cost, suffice ?— I think it not im-
possible
iTF.r.
Si-otiii? --Ill
lus liL'cii out
the xpensc
rtainly.
c, uikI tlicir
•llIlsfLTICtl to
rtiol) to tlio
lat cstnl>li8li-
liiit country?
c iruiii tlii^
Joluiiics ;
Hint of lorce
)|)car.s l)y tlio
7() ntiik anil
(il)tuincd this
in.
is immediate
is 3,()()(i/. a
4,j()i)/. until
lullaiid wa.s a
iniiial. Tlic
r
U) commands
use at N'( IV-
c()nsL'<|ui;ncc
', an fstiinatc
iiate was sent
fiic'od to. It
iiircd to com-
itf, as vsouid
t was <;r(atlv
as taken otl'.
It, and whicti
.•onsidnahk' ;
• govirniiient
•
•y arc.
Kji's .salary is
foundiand r —
)niinan(li'(l at
ned, as it «as
in the station,
the ixovcrnors
• distant (larls
n the island ;
;o till' coast ot
noI is 'jj^joo/.
link it not im-
possible
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMLNTS IN THE COLONIES. 33
nosVible thattt smaller vessel might answer the purpu-sc j and It may ptilmps be R. W. Ihy. En
ll.meut this time, tiiouj-h not so easily until tlii.^ period, since it is .inderstoo.l ■ ■■
that the ussen.hly of iNfewfonndlan.! have deciddl on d.spensm^ will. th<. services 3i March .835.
of the iuiiue at Labrador, so that it will no longer be necessary to keep up a
rcuular communication with that fpiartcr. 1 should tliink that a smaller vessel
Willi fewer hands mi;jht be employed. „• ., 1 ;„
41 J. What amount of saviiin do you think it i.s possd)lc im,i;ht 1 e elk'cttd m
that?— It would depcnil on the number of hands, and the description ot vessel
which inisht be sub.stitnted. I should suppose u schooner with 10 or 12 men
would answer the purpose, , . , . ..
414. What is the size of the vessel now?— The vessel is a bri^; ot 170 tons.
Air,. How many h;mds has she (m board? -She has 21 hands.
4i'fi. Tlieii you tliink half the size of the equipment would be sullicient ? — Hint
is ny impression ; but at the same time I should wish the late f-overnor to be
examined on this subject, wlio has more local knowledjio than 1 possess,
41- Wliatisthe amount of the etlonial revenue?— About 1 6,000 /. a year.
4i,S. What is the amount of the population "—The population is upwards ot
Go o(>(. ■ but it varies, from the circumstance of its beiiii', a tisiiinf; station.
4i(j. Are there any |)nblic works Koing on at the expense ot this country 111
Newfoundland >.—l am not aware that there are, of any extent,
AM,. Are there any reductions that you can [iroposc in that command ?— -l am
not aware of any, except that in the vessel which I have already alluded to.
1 think that might be reduced. „ , . x,
411. Is there a lieutenant-governor of Newfoundland ."— INo.
4 "2 Was tlicrc not a correspondence or proposal made by the colonial govern-
ment to pay all the expenses attached to this colony, if they were allowed some
contingencies ?— 1 presume the arrangement is alluded to by which the colonial
assembly was given to the province of Newfoundland. ^
4-.J Did not they oiler then to pay all the expenses r— They held out tl.e
stron.'.est boi.cs that they would be able to pay all the expenses ot the civi esta-
blisim.ent, but thev have not succeeded in doing so. It the Committee will re er
to the colonial estimates for the year lH;;3, they will find a letter Iroin the Colo-
nial Department on the subject, in wliicli the whole ease is explained ; and they
will see that altliouiih no distinct i-ledge was given by the province, vet that an
expectation was held out that if the wishes of the colonists were comphed with in
regard to a legislative assembly, they would provide lor the civil establishment
out of colonial funds, , ., 1 1 3 t. u „ ;«
4>4 Has that expectation been urged upon the colonial assembly ?— It has m
the stron-est way ; but the assembly have urged that they had no means o inect-
in.' the e.M'en.se of the civil establishment, the customs revenue having tallen otl
considerably, and they have therefore entreated aid from the llnlisli I'arhainent.
40 r In short tlieie is a (piestion of considerable dilViculty pending m reteiencc
to that'— Yes; the (luestion is now under tlie consideration ot the Government.
4..(iWhat is the amount of force at llermuda-— Tiie amount ot toree tor
Bermuda for the year kS;J;], was r,?.-, rank and file. In the two preceding years it
vvas considerably more: m 1S3,, 1,08, ; in .83.., .,.4,-.. Ihal.n 1634 appears
in tlie Consolidated Return now printed for the u;,e ot the Comimtlee.
4 .7. What was tlie reason of the force being so large m ib3i and 1S32 f—
It arose from an apprehension of mutiny 0,1 the part ot the convicts,
Ss What is the distribution of lorec at llermuda .^-1 will deliver the distri-
bution, which I have obtained from the Adjulant-generars ottice, and which is made
up to the latest i)eriod.
[Vide Appendix ]
4^,, What is the governor's salary, and that of his immediate predecessor ?-
The'.'overnor has 2,10.', /. upon the "colonial estimates, and iS;,/. trom the eok)-
riialtund. lie receives no statV pay, altiiough he is u major-general , but allow-
unces to the amount of ■J,')- /• , ,
430. Making how much in the aggregate ?-Rather more than 3,000 /. a yeai.
AXi Is there a government house ?— There is a government house.
4 V Is that furnished for him ? -Only in the same degree as m other colonies.
433, What is the amount of the colonial revenue :— The colonial revenue is
about 10,000 l. a year there. ^.^^^^
0.11. *■"
R. IV. Hay, Esq.
!
34 MliXUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE S'LECT COMMITTEE
. 434- Wlmt is the amount of population ?— The i)opulation is rather abov-
.)! March 183,^. 43.^. Does that include the convicts ?— No.
430- yiiat are the number of convicts by the last return ?— The number of
convicts by tlie last return uas 1.1 co.
437- Are there any public works goinjr on at Bermuda at the expense of this
country:— Bermuda is a great naval station, and there are certain fortifications m
progress «i.ich were considered necessary for its security: 7.00../. is proposed in
the ordnance estimate tins year for this work. 'The original estimate was , L 000 /
ot which .,S,ooo/., inclndino; the proposc.l ote of this year, has been already
granted, leavini; 31,000/. to be provided in future years '
438. Is there any yacht or vessel attached to the governor of Bermuda, as at
^ewtouruilandr— No, there is no vessel appropriated to his use
439. t 'ail you propose any reductions in the island of Bermuda.?— I am not
aware tl, .t there are any practicable. The governor has been written to in conse-
quence ot the instructions sent out last year on the appointment of this Com-
mittee, and lie has been unable to propose any.
440. I think you said there was 2.000/. odd paid to the governor; does that
ncluile the sum paid to him out ot the 4 A per cent, duties --He has no
onger any sum paid to him out of the 4. J per cent, duties. That is paid by
lariiament It was in consequence ot" a report upon civil government charges in
1S3 1, that the salaries ot certain W est India governors, and that of the governor of
Bermuda, hitherto paid out ot the 4 * per cent, duties, were ,,utupon the colonial
estimates. '
441. \^'o"'!* '^ ""' "^f P0«-:'^'« 'o "lake an arrangement bv which the governor's
salary should be paid altogether out of the colonial fund ?—'l should apprehend the
colony IS not rich enough to do that.
44^. po you know what they do with the rest of the money, after pavin.' the
part ot the salary he receives from then. ?-Xo, I am not aw'.re of the dclails ;
but the sum which the assembly have at their disposal after paying the civil esta-
blishment is very small. > j n
443- From what source does that fund arise ^-Chiefly from customs' duties.
444. 1 lie whole military and civil establishmeiii, and the expense of these works
IS paid by this country, by the Treasury here.^-Not the whole of the civil esta-
blishmen , only that portion of it which is paid by a parliamentary vote The
estimate tor military expenditure is a separate matter.
44:.. Do you know what proportion of the civil expenditure of Bermuda is paid
by the reasury o. this country .— T'he expenses of the civil government are al^ut
10,000/. a year, and the parliamentary grant is about 4 -,()i) /
44«- Does It come into your department to consider the relative general
expenditure of this colony as compared with other colonies ?— No doubt it does
with other colonies, taking tl... whole expenditure of the colony at 10,000/ a year-
-I am not aware that the general expenditure of the colony's extensive as com^
pared with o hers. Ihe 10,000/. a year to which i alluded is to defray the
expenses of the civil government. •'
44«- That has nothing to do with the expense of troops -— Nothin<' whatever
Mortis, 7* die Aprilis, 183.5.
THK RIGHT HO.NOUR.ABLK SIR .lOlfN BYNG, IN THE CHAIR.
General
Kir //. iurtifr.
7 April l8j5.
General Sir Ililgrmc Turner, called in ; and Examined.
440- ^'OU were some time (;overnor of Uermiida, were you not r— Yes.
4',(). Will yon state from what time, and until «hat lime ?- I was appointed in
the autumn ot i.Sa/i. or rather I was appnniKd b.lore, but I set out to .'o in the
auuim:i ut iS^.o to Ikrmuda. I embarked m December, and landed in Bermuda
ill the iiionlh ol l.hruuiy lSjO.
4', I. U hut was tilt- amounl ot lorce at the time you assumed Ihe command ---
it « as inciea-Kl afterwards; but at the lime I assumed thi command, Ihcre •^hs
one
ON MILITARY KSTAI5LISHMENT.S IN THE COLON IKS.
one rci^iinent of infantry, two companies of sappers and miners, and a verv small
portion of artillcrynien.
4,52. Way tiiat force altcrvvards increased ? — V'cs ; there wns another battalion
ot the line sent, and there was a company of artillery, witii a lipiitcnant-colonel com-
mandinsr it. It was made necessary on acconnt of the ill-hehaviour of the convicts.
4,')3- What was the greatest amount of force yon had at any one period during
your command ? — Tliere were two regiments of infantry, two companies of sappers
and miners, and a company of artillery ; and while the fleet was there, there was
a naval force. They were not under my command, but they certainly very mate-
rially assisted me while I was there, in respect of the convicts.
4,')4. Are the convicts together in a kind of barrack r — No; ihey are all afloat.
4,'),';. IJut they are landed daily for the works ? — Yes.
4f,(i. And require a guard for their superintendence ? — There was always a guard
stationed near their work ; but at one period, when they got to be so very dis-
orderly and mutinous, I was obliged to put a guard on l)()urd one of the ships.
Indeed, the keeper refused to go unless I did. Though I was cautioned from the
Home Department not to [uit soldiers as guards, yet the exigency of the case was
such, that I was ol)lige(l to do it.
4,57. What is the duty required at Ireland Island r — There was always a de-
tachment there ; a battalion that was part of the force of St. Cieorge's was in
Ireland Island on account of the convicts. The detachment consisted sometimes
of one company and sometimes of more, but that depended upon the commis-
sioner of the dockyard reriuiring troops.
4,18. What were the duties required to be done by the troops at Ireland Island ?
— There was no further duty for the military there than as a guard over the con-
victs.
459. What is the necessity of a station at Mount Langton ? — ^No more than
that it is the governor's residence. There was a small (ietachment of a serjeant
and \-2 men.
4(i(). It appears in the return of the staff there are three town-serjeants in Ber-
nnida ; are they all necessary ? — The oidy oificer that I had as assistant was
a brigade-major, who certainly was as.sisted by a town-serjeant ; but the extreme
dispersion of the troops might have recjuired more officers than would otherwise
be necessary. Tiiose jiartics that were in Ireland Island, and those that were in
St. (ieorge's, and latterly, those that were in Hamilton, might hr.ve required them.
I had but one officer to as; 1st me.
4(11. At how many stations in the island is divine service performed: — Where
there svere troops. Tliere was a battalion in the barracks of 8t. Cieorge's ; there
were small barracks in Ireland Island previous to those that were afterwards fitted
up with the fortilications ; and there was a hired l)arrack at Hamilton. Those
were the three places where divine service was performed.
4t) J. Was the extra r(,'giment that you applied for sent out before your departure
from this country? — Yes, it was.
4(1,;. W as that removed before you left the island ? — No.
4(14. In what year ditl that extra regiment arrive in llermuda.' — I should sup-
pose that it was about two years there. All my pa[)ers I left at my oflice at Ber-
nuida, but as tar as I can guess, I should say two years.
,|().'-,. In what year did you leave the island" — I left the island on the 2d of
April i^,;2. 1 was relieve<l before that; but as I had l)cen so long in a hot
climate with my family, I did not like bringing them home in February. I was
relieveil in February i8;]2, liut I was detained u mouth or two in conseciuencc of
not liking to bring lliem home at that season.
4(it». With respect to tlii' clergyman, Ireland Island is entirely under the super-
inlendence of the commissioner of the dockyard .' — The naval chaplain is entirely
under the commissioner.
4(17. .\re tilt! duties of the naval chaplain sd gnat at Ireland Island, that the
detaciinient from St. (ieorge's might not attend divine service at that chapel with-
out paying another clernvmaii ■ — Certainly, they might.
4liS. It appears Iheie is another clergyman at present paid for tluit duty ? —
Yes, there is ; Mr. Mantack.
4()(). He receives an allowance at present for doing the duty of the troops at
In land Isl.uid : —Yes.
4711. Hut the eleigyinan who is at the dnikyard might discharge the whole.' —
Then- was ."umc lea.^ou lot .qipmnUiig nn adilitionid elir^yniaii ; whether the
"• 1 1 • t - chaplain
General
Sir H. Turner.
7 April 1835.
36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
General
•S.r JI. Turner.
7 April 1^3-,.
! I
cliapliiin at the dockyard could not do the nliolc duty, or what, I do not exactly
know the reason \vhy, and 1 tliought it miij;lit have been done by one cler<iymur
for the uhoic; but whether there was no cliurch, or what, I do not know. There
was some reason for it ; l)ut ctMtainly one clergyman could do the duty for the
troops. tliou_t;h at the same time, 1 must say, not that of the convicts : beini; oblii;c{l
to he at the difleront shijis, that service required a great deal of time and Irbour.
This is entirely under the commissioner.
171. The soldiers in Ireland Island, when they are sick, are sent to the naval
lios|)ital .' — They are.
472. And arc visited by the naval chaplain? — They are.
47J. On board how many ships are the convicts placed r — I think there are
iUe; hut whether it is four 01 five I am unable to say |)ositively. It is now three
years since 1 left the islanil, and tiiat part of their arrangements I did not have
much to do with, so long as they were kept in order; it was under the
conunissioner.
474. Arc (iibb's-hill, I'ort Cunningham, Hen Island and Fort George, signal
stations? — ^ es, and Mount I angton and the Admiralty House, but not Hen
Island.
47^, And tiicre is an ollictr in charge of those stations? — A non-commissioned
cflicer, I believe.
47r). Do yon think the situation of the officer in charge of those signal sta-
tions is indispensable ? — They arc island situations chietly. It is necessary that
some one should look over them, and that the duty should be left to a non-com-
inissioneil l''cer. Tiie otVieer did not reside there, 1 know, except when they
wanted the barracks at one lime. '1 hey were uiiler the superintendence of
• ome of the officers ; but that is an islami situation, that of superintending the
signals.
477. It a;)pears that tiiere is an allowance of •2',-2 I. per annum for clergymen;
liow many clergymen are allowances made to? It 'ays allowances to clergymen,
but it doe.s not specify the number r — With respect to the clergymen, I must say
that the convict duty brings on a great deal of labour for tiiem, whatever duty
beloiii's to tlie dockvanl.
475. Do you happen to know tia number of clergymen who are in reeeijit of
this allowance, wliich is slated at 2',-2i.':' — Tliere are but two that were ever
appointed lo Ireland Island, one immediately under tiie commissioner, who was
.stationed as a naval cha|)lain, and another clergyman that I had allowed for the
tietaciiment there, besides the regiments at St. (li orge's and Hamilton.
471). Does it appear to you that either of tlii.-e clergymen ecnild be got lid of?
— If it •■■ thought that the convicts could do without divine service, they could be
got rid of.
4^0. Does it a|)|iear to you that there was adecpiate employment for the clergy-
men who receiveil these allowances? — I think ,so, when you recollect that we
could not have aliove two convict crews in one ship to heardivini' service.
4S1. \\'as service perlormed in each of the convict .•-lup>: — Not in all the
shijjs, because by pntting two crews of convicts in one sliip, that made but one
service for two.
4SJ, Are you of opinion tlun that any rcduclio'.i can he ert'ccted in that parti-
cular item of allowances to clergymen without dtlriment to the performance of
iheduly? — 1 tiiiiik not. Service in a hot climate like tliat is ten times more
(Jillicuit than it is in our own.
4S.J. Those two clertiymen were cleigymen ol the Cliuich of England, and
educated as gentlemen- — Ves.
4K4. And they had to perforin the service for i,loo convicts in four or live
convict ships .' — Yes.
4S,'i. As well as for the troops ? — Yes, as well as for the detachment of troops
that were on shore at Ireland Island ; iiesidcs, the whole of the dockyard at-
tended of course, for they had no other church to go to.
4^(1. Are we to suppose that 2,V- I- 4 •'*■ ^*'as the intire aiiioiint limt was |)aid to
the clergymen for overlooking the convicts? — 1 hat was not in my deparlnienl.
One of them was entirely in tl"' naval department, wliich I had notlrng to do
witii, and Ihe eommissione ...'i i' to let the otiur clergyman go to assist tiiere
for the service ot the nv-' . I- •aw. <l was only upon siilit ranee that i)ur troops
Weill to tluir cluiich when I id oi.
.\Sj. IIrii (Ihls mmiM' par .! '' liargt eonsisl ol an allowance paid to the
naval
, )*•
I
■???
ON MILITARY J.STABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 37
il
naval clmplain ?— I suppose so ; it did not go tlirougli my hands ; this is the first
time I hu\c ever heard the uinouiit.
488. Are you of opinion that any of the religious services which are performed
by these clergymen might be dispensed with without detriment? — No, I am not.
489. With respect to the start-assistant surgeon there; are his services neces-
sary, considering the medical staff that is with tlic regiment?— At some periods
certainly, and at other periods not. It depends upon the health of the garrison.
4()(). Is there not a medical orticer with the artillery ? — Yes.
4()i. Do you consider that the services of the stafl-assistapt surgeon as well as
of the medical officer of the regiment and of the artillery are requisite ?— It de-
[unds upon the health of the garrison. If there is much sickness in the garrison,
certainly the staft'-surgeon is necessary then ; but there are periods when he cer-
tainly is not necessary ; when there is but little sickness.
4()2. Arc the troops generally healthy, or not?— I cannot say thry are in gene-
ral healthy. 'i"hc (piantity of rum they drink is so very prejudicial, and particu-
larly since they made that change in tl)e allowances, for formerly they used to give
a gill of rum to each soldier with the tiuce waters the same as they do in the
navy, and that was |)ut with his mess in the barracks.
4();5. Does the stall-assistant surgeon attend tiie convicts? — No.
4"«)4. There is a sc|)arate medical establishment for them ? — Yes, entirely for
then"). The convicts are entirely uuiler the commissioner, except as relates to
keeping them (juiet.
4(),5.' What is the necessity for a naval tank-keeper?— Wherever there is a
tank there must be a tank-keeper, otherwise it will be injured and robbed, water is
of so much value.
40(). I perceive theiiaymentfor it is 71)/. 15. (ul. 1 would ask whether you
tiiink that duty might not be done by some one of the garrison with a small reum-
neration in addition to his pay ? — Certainly.
497. By a non-commissioned officer or a steady man in the regiment at 6 rf.
a day? — Yes, and giving him his lodging, because the tanks they ha-' at St.
(Jeorge were very extensive indeed, and ihey very frequently were broken open,
in conscfiucnce of which there is a small house that the tank-keeper has.
4()8. Is it rcfjuired that he si.oukl he a mechanic at all ?— No ; lie should under-
stand tiie turning of the cocks ami the water, which 1 do not think there is any
(iilliculty ill understanding. I think C d. a day would not be sufficient, for the
duty is important; he must <,'ive up his whole time to it.
41)9. 1 see tliere is a garrisc 1 boat kept at an expense of 77 /. 11 s. ^d. per
annum r — Yes, a sailing boat.
'■,1)0. It is called a garrison punt, with a pilot and two boatmen ?— 1 es,
\o\. Is that absolutely necessary ?—Ves, absolutely necessary, for with the
continued water-carriage they have there, they would be cut oll'tiom all means of
sending assistance or provisions, or any thing else. It is made up ot small
i-lands.
r,o->. In addition to that there is Jo;}/. 4. v. for four labourers and boatmen in
the department of the stoiekeeiHT of the Ordnance ?— If it is in the Ordnancs
de|Kntment, 1 do not Miiiik that boat so necessary as the garrison boat. It was
kept so couipktely to themselves that I m vcr could benefit by it myself. They
never would let me touch it.
,503. There are four boats altogether ; one belonging to the engineers, one to the
garrison, one to the ordnance, and one to the commissariat department r— There are.
-,04. Are they all necessary ?— If they were put under a proper regulation, so
that thev coulil be under one head, and that they could be used tor His Majesty's
Gfneral
.Sir //. Turner.
7 Ap'-.l 1835.
service, "I think they would be useful; but if the wliole four draw one way, and
another another, tliey are not of nnicii use. I never coulil send the garrison boat
at a time it was absolutely neie>sary to be taken up. It \>as constantly on the
water, and the others I had noliiing to say to. The commissariat let me have
theirs more than the otiier departments,
r,or,. Are you aware that there is an allowance to the storekeeper ot the ord-
naiice ilepartment of ■J4/. 1 1 v. 7 d. per annum ?— Yes ; for a horse.
-iofi. It is stated to be for travelling allowance ?— As that gentleman never
would aiio« iiK- lo Ik-.vc his boat, 1 latiser «oiuler how I Ap)'-d t!'.:it; but the com-
missary brought me the allowance for the horse, and as the storekeeper never had
a horse, and never used a horse, and kept the boat lo biinseU, 1 thought there uas
no iiasoii why he should have that allowance, and I struck it oil.
(Ml. r;J
fjO?. There
General
Sir H. Turner.
7 April 1835.
38 MINin r.S 01 KVIDKNCE HKFORK SF.Ll.CT COMMITTEi:
.'■,07. There is alsu an ullowance to tlic servant oftlic storekeeper of 27/, 7,5. 6d.
per aniuiui? — I do nut know of tlie custom of the artillery in tiicse res|)ecls, and,
therefore, I cannot answer tliat.
.■-,oS. It appears that the charnc of 24/. 11 ,v. (i</. for the storekeeper is not for
horse hire, but travellini; expenses; and if he iuis no horse, his traveliinj; expensts
would he more eonsiderahle from liis not havin^j a horse ?--IIe has his boat, whicli
is fai more convenient. In fact, he could not go with iiis horse to several of the
places, because they arc islands.
509. The traveliiniT expenses may have reference to the boat, or the char;.'es
for horse and travelling expenses?— I did not know that was allowable to any of
the ofllcers that were sent round, for travelling exjienses. If I sent an otVicer to
Ireland Island or elsewhere, no expenses were charged ; but I do not know what
is the custom in the ordnance. I should not have permitted or allowed travelling
expenses for any department belonging to me.
,'iio. I believe Mr. Phili|)s, the storekee|)cr, is an elderly person, and has been
a great many years in the service • -He is certainly a much younger man than 1
am; but still he maybe to a certain degree elcljriy. Ho «as at Xewfoimdland
before he came to Hermuda.
.511. 1 believe he has been a storekeeper since 179S? — I did not understand
that. lie may have been so, because what happened out of the island, or before
I arrived, I am not ac(|uainted with.
512. Might not the barrack-inn^tcr do the duty of storekeeper, or the store-
keeper do the duty of barrack-master r—1 should think not all. The storekeeper
has a great deal to do with the navy.
,513. Do you consiilcr an assistant rommissary-general and two deputy as.sistunts
necessary .-—That is a (Je[iartment that communicates with the Treasury. I had
nothing to say to them any more than to the ordnance.
r, 14. Can you inform the Committee whether they are necessary, from the duties
they had to perform r — Xo ; I am not aware of the duty tiiey had to perform.
')i,",. Has not the storekeeper considera!)le duties to perform where there are
1,100 convicts? — The storekeeper has nothing to do with the convicts.
516. Are you aware that the barracks now are all under the ordnance; and,
theretore, the barrack-master and storckee|)er need or)lv be uuncr one department?
— I am aware that was so, and in respect of several circumstances that happened,
to my great regret, th.it were prejudicial to His Majesty's service.
,-,17. Tlial would di) away with the oiijection that the barrack-master and store-
keeper would be under two departments }■ — Ves ; the barrack-master is now
entirely nniler the ordnance.
jiS. 'i"he barrack-ma>t(r and the ordnance storekeeper aie uiuh^r one depart-
ment ? — Yes ; there would be nothing to cla>h otherwise ; there would not be two
masters.
,■5 1 1). Can you give the Committee any information respecting the l)akery, as there
appears to be a great number of baker.s ? — 'I'hey have so much to do with coi-'rncts
and in money matters of various kind^, that 1 cannot very well answer us to the
duties of the commissariat.
(JoloncI Wi/litim Smell, called in ; and I'.xamined.
Col. ifm.Smrlt. 51(1. YOL' were some time in Jiermuda, were you not ?— Yes.
ff2\. Conimaniling a regiuunt?~Ves.
f,-2-2. From what period to what period ?— From November iSjo to November
1S3J.
,-,23. At tilt time you were there hail you one or two regiments of the lino' —
Two regiments.
.-,24. Was the duty rerpiired such as to make that force necessary ? — No, 1 do
not know that it was at that time; but I believe before ne went the convicts were
breaking out. They were rather alarmed about them, and we were sent as an
augmentation regiment in conseipience of the ^tate of the convicts there.
',2',. 'llial seciiud ugiinent has sul)K(puMtly been withdrawn- — It has.
,'^26. What is till daily amount of force recjuired for the duties there? At
St. George there uu only two strni ants' guard, for the barracks guard and the town
guard, 'i'jiin tlu re is Ireland iMand, which is a di-tiiK I place, alxait iN iiiik^ .lis-
taiil, where the iiavul departmeiii i> Their guard was aloul a sergeanl an.! 1;,
mill, ill L'eiieral.
•MMITTKi:
r of 27/. 7,5. 6rf.
se respecls, aiul,
keeper is not lor
ivcllini^ cxpeUMS
s liis boilt, viliith
o several oi" the
, or the cliarj^es
;ivval)le to any of
ent an otVicer to
J not know what
lowed travelling
III, and has been
ii;er man than I
t Xinvloimciiand
not understand
island, or before
r, or the store-
The storekeeper
.ieputy assistants
reasury. I jiad
, from the duties
to perform,
where there arc
iets.
ordnance ; ami,
)ne department r
tliat happened,
lastcr and store-
inai^ter is now
ui(T one depart -
ould not be two
bakery, as tiierc
lo with cop'riicts
mswcr us to the
10 to November
,s of tlic line ' —
»ry ? — No, I do
lie convicts were
ivere sent as an
there.
-It lias.
lies there? — At
rd and the town
lit |S mile- iliN-
ierjieanl an.! 1;,
,J7- The
ON MILITAUY KSTAIiUSILMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 39
,'527. The duties are quite sufficient to require a whole battalion there? — I should Cnl. ti'm. Smeft.
tliink they were, of the present strenjith of the battalion, six companies.
,V2S. Do you consider that the medical staff assistant-surgeon is necessary, con- 7 April 183,^
sidering there is the medical statV of the regiment and a medical officer of the artil-
lery : — I should tliink he was necessary for Ireland Island, because a large detach-
ment goes tiiere, and in case of sickness they would require a medical man.
fi2(j. Would not the assistant-surgeon of the regiment go there? — Yes; but in
case of sickness they would lie without a surgeon at St. CJeorge.
,530. Where are the artillery statioiu I? — The artillery used to be stationed at
Fort (Ainningham ; but tiiey h.ive been at the Royal barracks since I came away.
5;li. Tiien you are of opinion that one stall" assistant-surgeon is necessary? — I
think so.
532. Is it necessary to have an officer in charge of the signal station? — No, I
should think not. I'here was none in charge of the signal station when I was
there ; the fort adjutant liatl charge of it.
,'533. It appears that be receiveil double pay for that ? — He bad charge of the
signals and other things, and I believe he had to kee[) it in repair ; to provide the
halyards or ropes.
.')34. Are you aware that there are four different boats kept by the government,
for the (lidLrent dcipartments r^Tliere were three, I think, when I was there.
.'■)3.''). Are they all tiirce necessary ?— During the time the works were going on
at Ireland Island I siiould think they were, for there is a great deal of communi-
cation recpiired between the Islaiul and St. Cicorge.
536. Arc there not constantly works going on there?— There was during the
time 1 was there, and I believe even now. 1 believe the military works may be
finished ; but 1 heard that tiie naval works "cre not to be finished for some years
to come.
,'537. Are you of opinion that an assistant commissary-general and two deputy
commissary-generals are necessary ?— The assistant is necessary, but perhaps one
of the de[iuty assistants is suflicient ; though there again you must have somebody
at Ireland Island to issue and to take charge.
538. For what service is the bakery employed? — For the troops generally. I
do not know whether it is employed for tiic navy or not.
,539. I believe in most garrisons abroad the bakers are chosen from the regi-
ment ; soldiers are employed as bakers? — If they have them, they generally take
tiiem.
,540. Are the troops generally healthy in Bermuda throughout the year ? — Yes,
I should say they were.
,541. I believe there is one season of the year when there is a Bermuda fever?
— 1 was fortunate enough not to be there at that time, but I have heard there is.
542. Are spirits given with the rations to the troops ? — They were when we
first went there, but they were discontinued.
543. Finding it atVected the health of the troops? — I do not know. I rather
think it was better for the troops to have that (piantity, for many reasons.
5.44. For what reasons ? — In the first place, we bad so little fresh provisions;
we only had fresh |)rovisions twice a week, and the water is very bad at times. The
system 1 adopted was to have spirits mi.xed under the officer's eye, and issued at
dinner time, and tiu n it prevented the men from going into the canteen between
that and parade ; and tlu y were <iuit<' satisfied with that. It certainly prevented
the men from going to the canteen during the day.
,'54,'',. Are spirits not used to excess there ? — Yes, and everywhere else, I am
sorry to say.
,'i4(i. Are spirits very cheap in Bermuda? — Yes, very cheap ; cheaper than they
arc ill the West Indies.
547. Tlicy are brought from the West Indies?— Yes.
.'■,48. Are the barracks v- y extensive there, and has the barrack-master very
heavy dnlies to perlonn ?- 1 should tliink, very ; they are very extensive at St.
(iiorge's and Ireland Islaiut.
.'•,4(). Quite snllicient to occupy one person ? — -Yes, and a great deal more to.
Sometiiiit.-. tluy cuiiiuit roniiiiiiiiicatc ; the cuimiuiiiicaliun is cut oti between Ire-
land Ibliind and St. (ieorge's.
550. Do you hap|)en lo kuov> whether the duties of the storekeeper arc very
f 4 considerable
U' ' ''
Col. Wm. Smelt.
7 April 1835.
40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
I think they
lie luis chu
jf the naval stores
ell
considerable ? — 1
as of the military stores
5,-)i. Is it your opinion tiiat it is possible for the same ofTiccr to |tcrforni the
duties of storekeeper and of barrack-master r — No, I think not. 1 know the situa-
tion of barrack-master is a very difficult b'v' arduous situation.
Captain
Sir 7'. Cochrane.
Captain Sir Thomas Cochraiv:, late Governor of Ncwfoundiaiul, called in;
and Examined.
552. YOU were for some time Governor of Newfoundland ? — Yes.
553. When did you come home ? — 1 returned home in the end of November
last.
554. What was the amount of military force you had under your command ? —
The military force appro|)riatcil to the colony oriirinally was three companies of
veterans, (a veteran battalion, comj)rising three companies,) ami a company of
artillery.
555. Was that the amount of force you left there? — That was the nominal
amount of force ; but the number never was complete after the force was first
sent out.
556. How long were you governor of Newfoundland ? — I was governor nomi-
nally for near 10 years. I was actually there, with occasional leave of absence,
nine years.
,';,)7. Can y^u inform the Committee whether it is practicable to make any re-
ductions eitlie I the military or civil departments of Newfoinulland ' — Certainly
not in the military department ; on the contrary, I think the military force at pre-
sent there, as I have represented to the Government at dilViucnt periods, iiuidecjuate
to the proper performance of the regular garrison duty, and that it has fallen with
undue severity upon those men wh- have been there. I think if the corps appro-
priated to Newfoundland were kept complete, they would be sutlicient for the ser-
vice required of them ; but they have always been incomplete and inetiicient, both
in resjiect of the numiicr and de.icription of men.
558. What should be the number for tiiceliective state of the coips ?— The num-
ber for the effective state of the corps should be about 300 or 310, rank and fde.
559. It appears that it is under '230 ? — Yes, it has been very low indeed. To
give the men four nights in bed, whici really is (]uite little cnuiigh in that rigorous
climate, it requires 170 privates to give the proper relief; and supposing the corp»
complete, it w ill leave oidy ,50 men for contingencies.
5()0. Are there any detached to ditlerent stations: — No, there are not ; but it
might become necessary to send a detachment to another district ; and if so, the
garrison, as now constituted, could not atiord it. There are not men sufHcient to
do the regular garrison duty.
5(>i. It appears from some evidence before the Committee, that there is a yacht
kept for the use of the governor; do you consider it absolutely necessary that a
yacht shoidd be kept up, or so large a vessel as at |)resent : — 1 think it is (piite ul-
cessary that the vessel should be kept up. The size at jircsent is not more than
adecpiate for the pur|)ose for which she is wanted. She is not wanted exclusively
for the governor's use; she is recjuired when necessary to send detachments ol
troops to dill'erent parts of the islands, and she should be able to carry them. She
has also occasionally to go to Halifax for the mail, or in other services : she has
had to go to i'.nghuul with de--patehes, and she has been sent to cruize when com-
plaints have been mule of the conduct of the IVcncli with respect to the fisliery,
and to prevent suiii;:gliMg, and other duties. 1 do not think a smaller vessel
would be sutlicient. It vvas originally a (piestion whether a man-of-war should
be employed or a colonial vessel ; and the Admiralty were very much averse, and
I think with reason, to employing a man-of-war. Tin; duties are irksome as
well as troublesome, and the |)iobal)ilities were that it would luing the governor
and the captain of the man-of-war into contliet trom his not l)eing under his
immediate command, and the service would not be as etliciently perf<irmed; and
moreover, tlie expense of a man-of-war of the same description, or of that descrip-
tifMi which Mould lie calculated for the service which the yacht has to pirfoiui.
would be more tlian double that (j1 the colonial vessel. I suggested to the .Secie-
tary ol State there should be two colonial ve^.-^c'l>>, in which ca-,e the inan-of-w,tr
which is annually sent there might be dispensed with, unless in some case of
einergfiiey ,
MMITTEE
ml stores as well
cr to |tcrforni the
I know the situa-
iiul, called ill }
-Yes.
•nd of November
our command ? —
nt'c companies ol"
111 a company ot
was the nominal
he force was first
is governor nomi-
leave of absence,
c to make any rc-
lland ' — Certainly
itary force at pre-
criods, iiu:<!e(iuatc;
. it has fallen with
the corps appro-
licient for the ser-
d iiicliicient, both
:oips ?— The niim-
10, rank and file.
• low indeed. 'J"o
ill in that rigorous,
ip[)Osing the corjis
ru are not ; but it
ct ; and if so, the
t men sufHcient to
lat there is a yacht
y necessary that u
liink it is (piite lU'-
t is not more than
wanted txcliisivcly
id detachments ot
curry them. She
services : she has
I cruize when coiii-
peclto the (isheiy,
k a smaller vessel
nan-of-war should
r much averse, and
■s are irks<jnie as
:>riiig the yivcrudi
t being under ins
ly performed ; and
or of that descrip-
•lit has to prrfiiiiii,
ested to the .Secie-
i->e the inaii-(jf-w.ii'
ss in some case of
emergency ,
ll.
VA
7 April 1835.
Col. v. Burkt.
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 41
emergency ; and I think that would be the cheapest arrangement, and I am not CnptHiB
certain that it would not be the most efficient. ^ "■ '• CmJiranf.
,502. Is the yacht an armed vessel? — Yes, she is armed with eight small guns,
and has 20 men altogether. In answer to tlic question, whether there is any pos-
sibility of reduction in the military establishment there, I am not aware of anything
further, (particularly as I understand one commissariat officer has been reduced,
and I think there was one more on that establishment than neces.sary,) excepting
that it appears to me at present there is no necessity for a field officer of engineers
there. 1 think a suhiiltern would answer the purpose. There are no works going
on, and nothing for an officer to do.
,563. You had a field officer, or captain, and a subaltern? — There is a field
officer and a subaltern, no captain.
5(14. Are lliere pny works going on now? — None whatever. There are works
contemplated and planned, but I apprehend it will probably be a long period
before they arc undertaken.
565. Is Placeniia in Newfoundland r — Yes, but that is an abandoned work.
Colonel Thomas Burke, called in ; and Examined.
.566. YOU were for some time stationed at Newfoundland ?— For seven years.
567. In what capacity? — I was commanding the troops there as senior officer. _— — —
,568. At what period did you leave Newfoundland? — I left it in 1831.
56;). What do you consider the amount of military force necessary for the duty
of Newfoundland ? — A little more than there is now. There are three companies
of veterans now, but I never thought them sufficient ; the climate is so very severe
I never thought them sufficient. I always thought there might be a fourth com-
pany there uilh advantage.
570. Tlie climate during the winter is very severe upon the troops? — Very
severe indeed.
571. They are cliiefly veterans? — They are all veterans, except the artillery.
572. The troops receive their rations, do they not? — Yes, like the other troops
of the army on foreign stations.
573. Do they receive spirits with their rations? — Yes.
574. Are they in general healthy ? — They are. It is a very healthy place, but
they drink too much ; rum is too clieap there. I have seen several brought to the
hospital drunk, and die in an hour afterwards.
575. Are you aware of any reduction that can be made in the military staff
attached to the government? — I am not aw are that there may be any made. The
staff is very small ; tiicie are two engineers, two commissaries, and a fort major.
There are no other oflicers.
576. What is the commandant of Newfoundland ? — He commands the troops.
577. Were the two commissaries at Newfoundland when you were there? —
There were three. One since that has been reduced.
,578. Do you consider the two are necessary ? — 1 believe so.
,1571). What have they to do beyond furnishing rations to the troops? — Nothing;
rations and pay to the troops. They formerly acted as treasurers for the issue of
money, but they are not now so employed ; a treasurer has been appointed by the
legislative assembly.
580. Do you think that one commissary could not do all the duty? — I suppose
he might ; I am not certain as to that.
581. Do you consider that a field officer of engineers might be removed, and
the corps be left to the command of a junior officer ?— If there are no works going
on, then he might, but not otherwise.
582. Were there any works going on when you were there? — Not latterly.
Francis Robert Bonham, Esq., a Member of the Committee, Examined.
583. CAN you account tor the amount of salary paid to Mr. Philips, storekeeper F. R.Bonham, Esq.
at Bermuda, amounting with allowances to .'if,!/. 45. T i d. per annum ?— Mr. "•^-
Philips having been employed as storekeeper from the year 1798, is entitled to the -^— —
highest salary of that rank ; having been appointed storekeeper at Bermuda in
10 1 8, previous to the King's warnuil of Dceember 1025.
,1584. On his removal, what will his successor be entitled to? — His successor
will he entitled to a salary of 250 /. per annum ; nnd whatever inoy be the length
0.1 1.
of
42 MINUTES or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
7 April 1835.
F. It. Bnn}iam,Ei(\. of his services, tlic inaxiinum of iiis increase will be 3.")<)/. In additioii to that
"•'■• Mr. Philips is entillcii to -'4/. 7 .v. ful. a year for horsc-hirc aiul travelling
expenses, by un ok! Ordnance re;.;iilution ; anil that ^^ arrant of 182,'; entitles all
^torekeepers to a certain amount ot travellinj» expenses. The allowances in fact
(or truvelliiif^ expenses and servants are altojielhcr f, 1 /. i,")*. That makes 5 1 1 /.
He has allowances in kind also; mtions for himself and inaii servant.
Jovis, 9" die AprWs, 1835.
R. jr. lley, Esq.
9 April 1835.
^
SIR JOHN BYNG, IN THE CHATR.
Robert Jt'tlliam Hay, Esq., again called in ; and Examined.
585. WHAT is the amount of force in Canada i'rom the last return', we have in
1834? — The amount of force in Canada appears t) he 2,408 in the yiar 1834.
580. Can you g've us the distribution of the forces?— I have a relurn from the
Adjutant-general's olficc, made up to the end of March, and I now give it in.
[ The Return was handed i«.]
,587. Have you the means of stating to the Committee the amount of forces
kept up in the (Janadas prior to 181(1?— By a comparative return whicli I Imve
before mc, it appears that in 1792 there were 2,800 men in Canada, in the year
1814 there were 16,288. The consolidated Relurn, which is already before the
Committee, will furnish the number for subsequent years.
,588. Does the command of the connnander of the forces extend beyond the
province? — Lord Aylmer, the commander of the forces, has command over the
whole of the North American provinces.
589. And he is responsible for tiie proper distribution of forces? — No doubt
he is.
590. What is the extent of frontier towards the United States? — I should
suppose it must be nearly 1,000 miles.
591. What iu the militia force in each province? — The militia force in the
Lower province amounts to 94,00(1 men ; that of the Upper, to 34,000 men.
,592. Has any systematic plan been pursued for putting those provinces in
a jiroper state of defence? — A military commission was a[)pointed in 1825 for
the purpose of intpiiring into this luulier ; and a very full report on the subject was
made to the Government by the engineer oflici rs appointed to this duty.
.^qj. Has tiiat report been acted on to any ccjosiderable extent? — The com-
missioners recommended tiiat a citadel should be erected at Quebec ; that certain
works should be eonstrucled at Point Ilemy at Kingston. The Riiieau Canal,
which forinn u hack military water couHnunication between Lake Ontario and
Montreal, formed part of tlie general plan for the defence of His Majesty's North
American jjrovinces.
594. Is the citadel at Quebec completed ? — The citadel at Quebec is completed.
59.",. Did not the commi^^iohcrs reconmu ml tlir eonstnietion of a citadel at
Montreal? — Ves, they did.
/59(i. Ilns that brm done: — It has not been done.
.',97. Is King.'-ton still kc|)t up as a naval station?— it has been altogether
abandoned as a naval station. The sum of 7,000/. is voted for fortilications there,
in the ordnance estimates of this year.
/■,()S. I> the Uidiau Canal no\v <)|)tiicd r — The (,'anal has been opened since the
auttniin ol 1 Sjj.
,',09- Have yon any ntmn of tin amount of tcjlh: collected aniuially? — Tlie
amount ol toils btlwetn the jisl Dceeniiar 18 ;2, and the same dale 1833,
amounted to j,.'," 4 /.
()()(>. Were not llu: Indium tubes employed as allies in the wars of this country
with the I'liited Stales' — They uere, in bolli tlie American wars.
Were thev paid as soldieis, when so emploved r — iiiev received rations,
.liey paid as soldiers, wlien so emplovei
but no |)ay, I believe.
lioj. J)o they receive any pay or emolument in time of peace
no pay; hut presents aie issued to them anmi.div.
:— Tl
lev receive
00
Of
ITTliE
litioii to tliiit
(1 travt'linf^
'i entitles all
anccs ill fact
innkcB 511 /.
t.
IS we have in
ar 1 834.
uirn Iroiu the
vc it in.
3unt of forces
which I imve
, in the year
dy before the
beyond the
anil over the
■ — No doubt
i? — I should
force in the
)o men.
provinces in
in 1825 for
e subject was
'ty.
— riie com-
; that certain
lidcau Canal,
Ontario and
ijesty's North
is completed,
a citadel at
111 altogether
cations there,
ned since tlic
lually ? — The
i date 1833,
tliis country
L;ivcd rations,
They receive
Ouj. l)f
ON MILITARY ESTAIILISIIMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 43
603. Of what do those presents consist? — Various articles of dress ; clothes, U.W. Hay,V.t<\.
blankets, r.eodles, knives, tobacco, Morkiu;^ utensils, bends, &c. — < — — —
604. lias any attempt been mu<le to substitute more useful articles? — It was at 'J Apr.l 1835.
one time intended to commute the presents for money; but the governor of the
province represented tliat such a plan would be extremely objected to. Since
that time a certain quantity of implements ofhusbanciry have been supplied in lieu
of other presents: and this 1ms been done with the view of improvin;^ thoir habits
of life.
(J05. What is tlie salary and emolument of the present governor of Lower
Canada? — The salary of Lord Aylmer at present is 4,/)Oo/. civil salary, and his
staff pay as Iieutenant-};eneral, with allowances, amounting to nearly a,OOo/.
more. In 183.2 he had the same allowance of civil salary, but his allowances as
commander of the forces amounted to nearly 4,000 /. ; so that he has suffered
a reduction lately of nearly 2,000 /. a year.
(3o(i. What is the salary and emolument of the lieutenant-governor of Upper
Canada ? — Sir John Colborne, the present governor of Up|)er Canada, has 3,500 /.
a year as civil salary ; he enjoyed, until the year 1834, 3,000/. a year civil salary,
and his staff pay as major-general. It is not intended that the salary of his
successor shall be more than 3,000/. a year,
(107. Altogether ? — Altogether.
(ioH. What was the salary of their immediate predecessors? — Sir Peregrine
Mnitland had 3,000/. a year and his statVpiv as major-general.
boy. That is in U|>per Canada? — Yes. Sir .lames Kempt, in tlie Lower pro-
vince, had the same pay as Lord Aylmer, when he first took the command.
ftio. From what fund are the civil allowances paid? — The civil salary of the
commander of t!ie forces was, until 183:?, paid from tiie proceeds of certain duties
levied under the Act of 14 Cjco. 3. When those duties were given up to the
Assembly, it was expected tliat a civil list would be grunted, from which this salary
would have been paid. This not being acceded to by the Assembly, Lord
Aylmer was directed to charge his salary on the land and timber fund. In point
of fact, however, the Assembly having refused to pass any supply bill, Lord Ayl-
mer has only been enabled ! receive a [iroportion of his salary from the funds
which are at tlie disposal of the ("rown ; the deficiency for the year 1833 was last
year ordered to be made up from the military cfiest. In the Upper province. Sir
.lohn Colborne's .salary is paid from the casual and territorial revenue.
(ill. What is the amount of the revenue of each province? — The revenue of
Lower Canada amounts to about 130,000/. per annum; that of the Upper pro-
vince to something between 70,000/. and 80,000/. per annum.
()!•>. Have those revenues increased much within the last 10 years? — They
iiave been in a course of progressive increase until lately.
()13. What is the population of Lower Canada? — By the returns of 1833, the
population of the Lower province is 308,449; that of the Upper province, of the
same year, 296,544.
()I4. Is there any reduction contemplated by die ColoniiU OlHcc in Canada ? —
I am not aware of any being in contemplation.
()i5. The appointment of governor and lieutenant-general, held by Major-gene-
ral Strntt and Lieutenant-general Dilkes, will cease at the expiration of their lives ?
— Yes; they belou" to the cla.'is of non-ell'ective garrison apjiointments, and will
not be renewed after the death of the present holders.
(ii(). Wiial is the sum allowed to the commander of the forces in America? —
Lord ;\ylmer at present enjoys 4,500/. per j.iinum civil salary, and allowances
ninounting to nearly -.',000/. per annum, as I have already stated.
(117. Have you a return of the military appointments, corrected up to this
pt^jjuiip — 1 hjivu it as far as the names of the parties are concerned and their ap-
pointments; but it is not perfect with regard to their pay and allowances.
(ti8. Will you give in a return as nearly as you can furnish it?— I will
meeting
of th
endeavour to have it prepared in sullicient time for the next
C'oinmittee.
()U). With regard to the militia of the Lower and Upper jirovinccs, I wish to ask
if they are armed, clotheil aiul available for service, if wanted ? — They are not
ittined ; bui iIrju are anij>ie stores in the coloisy, liuiii wliicii tiieyeau beiuinishcd
' aecoutreinents in ease of eincrgeney . They muster
arms
ily
lay
the year ; they have no clo
Ihir
()
JO. In fact the militia is nothing u»oie than the registration of able-bodied
men,
Il :' f
44 MINUTES Ol- EVIDENCF. IIEFOTIE SELECT COMMITTER
H.jy^n^^. „en,^ .ho „,ight be callal out if w„„te<l ?-Yes. of all n,ea between the ««es of
9 April 1835. f ,,./
fn 1 .. *"""" "^"^^' "^ '" ^'o""^' «■■« "'ey in stores where it would be nossibl..
I take It hey are .n ,l,ftcre„t depdts, in charge of the or.in.u.cc. '
-No ; t.'icrc are some also at Monlrcal and
622. But not all kej)t in Quebec ?-
Kingston.
623. Is there clothing in store ?— I do not know.
I aooteh^nd I'lT """''1' '""""''-:!" "' '^"'^ '° "■■'" ''"-' "»'«'« «<■ tf"^!"- militia?-
1 apprehei d t ere are only arms for a .small body. It seems that in th, I n .,.,•
provmce the l.eutenant-govcrnor has con.menccd a pla.. o a miv an ir.iE
:i3""^,:;'.^';,?""'^?^' """ '^^' ^-p^- -^ cLtin *a:'e«fet;:e'ii^'s^
^juiju or ."jjOoo men in case ot emergency
4a,'^:rtrJ:,;7r?^^^^^^ "» '■■>". —^ -■
628 Is (he population enrolled in the militia so scattered as that tbev couhl not
a shorllimr"'' together:^-! imagine it would be in.possible lo ccEt tt.n S
vea^rl^-Tlef 'nil'" ''"^^"''«.!« "•"^•'••' '''«'" for ti,e purpose of training once every
«er.m^inn ^ T. '7^ "!''","'"" '" ^'' ^'*'^'^" *>"'" "'^i-- »"«■•"'« and their owu
occupations. They have by law only one training day in the year.
6w. Is there any other information you can give to the Committee resnectin..
the v^anadas r-1 am not aware tliat there is any. respecting
631. Do you consider that any reduction in the military expenditure can be
Mcmiiii, H" die Julii, 183.5.
ROBERT (iORDON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR.
8 July i(
The Right Honourable General S\r James Kempt, called in; and Examined.
Kt. Hon. General <^32. 11 AVINCJ heard the evidence of Afr Iln., r-,„,i i
lasr o ve.rs hnv 1 1 '"^ "'"■' "^"""'"'S^'- "'"t ^very Ciovernment for the
last 10 years have been anxious to reduce the militarv expenditure of Canada Iv
(>33. liiis it ever
rendered more eflic
iippcarcd to vou that tht
estublishments and the reaui
lent, and t»v being rend
ir annv mi
niilitia force in Cunada might be
' ;irv
ercd mure ethcioiit, that the milit
ilil with sately be din.ijnisiicd
in number r
— Canada
)M.Mi'nr.F.
etween the uges of
would be possible
t the provinces ? —
10 at Moiilrcal and
)f tlicir militia? —
lint in the I'ppcr
ming und iraininj;
efl'ectivc force of
altogether ?— One
? — One company
thed, armed and
at they could not
collect tliem in
nining once every
IS and their own
r.
nittcc respecting
)endiiure can he
Committee have
1 that nay as is
AIR.
lid Examined.
any observation
relative to the
lur opinion take
that could take
Committee ; he
he present state
eminent for the
of Canada, by
c rejjular force ;
> und I am not
reduced in any
hclicvc, less by
d to in I'arliii-
under its con-
n.'ida might be
lit the military
L'd in ninnbcrr
— Canuda
4
ON M1I.IT.\|{V KSTAm.ISH.MKNTS IN Tlii: COI.ONIKS. 41
—Canada is very peculiarly circumstanced ; it has a most extensive frontier to the
United States of America, open in every point, and is for six months in the year
without any direct communication with England. I am of opinion, that even if
a considerable portion of the militia were rendered efficient, the small regular
force now in Canada would nevertheless be necessary to support and give confi-
dence to the militia of the colony. There are lur^-c depdts of military stores to
protect in (Janada, and there ought to be at all times in the country a regular
military force sufficient for the protection of the town and citadel of Quebec, the
<jnly stronghold in the Canadas at present.
(>34. Does the plan that has lately been introduced into the Upper provinces,
of training one com|)any of each battalion of militia, meet with your approbation ?
—Perfectly ; I believe training any portion of the militia under the authority of the
fiovrrnment is a judicious measure, and one which ought to be encouraged as much
as possible.
C35. Would you lie induced to extend that same plan into the Lower provinces ?
— Un(|uestionubly. In atlministering the government of Lower Canada, I did
everything in my power to induce the legislature to pass an eftective militia law;
such as to afloid the governor, at all times, tiie means of having a few thousand
efficient militia in the event of any emergency ; and I at one time entertained a hope
tliut such a law would have been passed, it was thrown out however by the House
of Assembly. The militia is a very formidable body upon paper, it consisting of
the wh()le male po|)ulation of the province between I'S and (io years of age ; but it
cannot in its present state be considered a military force, for the existing law only
requires that the com[)anies shall be nmstercd once u year; and they are not trained
in any way, or armed, or clothed, in time of peace.
C13G. Do you consider that the completion of the military works that have been
constructed and are now constructing for the defence of Canada, when completed,
will justify the diminution of the regular force of Canada r— I do not ; I tiiink the
only works in progress at jiresent are those at Kingstown, and when they are
finisiiecl it will require the small number of troops that are stationed there for" their
protection.
b;}7. So far from the military works, when completed, justifying the diminution
of military fnce, you think that military force will be rcfiuired to protect them?—
Undoubtedly ; tlu>e works are intended to cover our depots, to keep up our com-
munication, antl to render the defence of the counti'y more easy in time of war.
6,38, Look ut the Return of the distribution of the forces, and see whether yon
think that in the (letail any diminution could take \>\Mer—[T/ic Wilne.s-s /ookcd
over the Rtti/ni.] The distribution is nearly the same as when I commanded in the
Canndas, and i.s such as I approved of at the time ; I am not of opinion tiiat any
material alterations can be made in it.
(),5(> I think yon gave an opinion just now, that the works at Canad i diil not
tend to lessen the number of troops there ? 'I'he few military works in Canada
will render a less number of troops necessary for the defence of the country in
time of war ; but they cannot be left unprotected in time of peace. Quebec is, in
fact, the only place of strength in the Canailas.
(J40. Do you think the employment of an extra battalion more or less, could
have any etfect in regard to the (juestion of peace und war in the United States of
America ?— Certainly not ; if America was disposed to go to war, one additional
fmttalion in Canada would, I apprehend, not prevent her doin" so.
(141. Sup|)ose a questici to arise b( tweeii us and the United States of America,
with regard to tiie boundary, would an extra battalion have any etlect whatever in
settling that question ?— Certainly not in settling that (piestion ; but the officer
commanding in New IJrunswick would require the assistance of all the regular
troops that could be sent him, to support the militia of that province ; and the
extra battalion would, I apprehend, be placed under his orders.
t)^-2. Would not that question, in a time of peace, be rather a question of nego-
tiation tiian a (juestion of opposition ?— It is u question which will 1 trust be
settled by negotiation between His Majesty's (Jovernment and the government of
the United States of America. Hut the i'nhabitants of the State of Maine have
shown u (iisposition to make inroads into the disputed territory, and the otticer
commanding in New Brunswick ought to have tiie means of ieueliin>^'
of that kind. ^
lion. (•(iiiiHJ
Jiinitk Kem/t,
8 July l8j6.
O.I I.
p any attempt
643. What
f in
46 MINUTKS OF F.VIDKNCK iJKFOHl' SFI.
Rl. Hon. Cmral 643. WIlUt is v
r:rT coMMnxi^r:
hir ^ffifrt KtmiA
■"•/''• out ot tliis country ; do voii tl
our opinion uith re^.„(| to tl
link
It" cnlistmi'iil of
•July 1833.
I
If '
/
;.,«,»ii.i.,.,,.,„M7;;;;^^;:r;;™;;:,:;:;:(;;;
t men in
lio oHtTs
"o .linicul.y in tornnn, . colon. ^pu'^nuiZ i/'"^''"''''''^ "•^'"'' '^^
"ot rw;on,mL...I ; tl,,. „,il„a,y force kiVinr 'n' > ' " " ""''■"'"*^ "'''••'' ' 'lo
tl.0 very l,est dc.scn,.,ioM of tCji ' '""^" """'"' '" '"y ^'l'""""- t« be of
«ou^n.u. tl. United ^tatc. tor u.^ ,..;; ■;;::!;:?i:;.-;-y-7 - ^-i«. .u
cniployncnt of such u force i.^ wo.Il I ^e^^^^^^^^ ' '"'^■^' ''^ »''«
o» troops of ilH. line, and .'.luailye ,.";", mu2i.r;T "^ '? "'?' """'^'='-
and men. I,y l„.i„^, t\^^,^^ i„(!,„„i, ' ' , n . '""""'^"'- I »i«i- that the ofKccrs
un ini:;.i!r S':!!::;!;;:^.:--!; ;,;;;-. ;<■>' "-nption of officer, uould ,.e of
tl.. great extent of ou tr2 '^^^^ ,;"; i;^-'' '^ "- -^^ > -1 considering
ficneral servic... nrni of the n o cS "^^^^ ^^T'^' "'"'y ""^''^ »» ''f ior
tlic Inchest .state <,f ,1 dp ■ ' ' l*^"' ,"'"' ''^ "' "" times kept in
I'ortion of the troops fron ! o)lo v ^rJ, l'^ S ' ''-"''''''y "^ "'""''■^'^^ "
the en.cr,encies o/the scrvic^ and'S ^ l^rliiLa t ll^ '" """"^^' "^^"^''"'" '"
Or,!!. 111,.,-,,,, 1,11 I-.,. , ■' "^'in.v..
l."e, and infinitely interior to the n i wd Jsoe r^^ "s e.xpens.ve a.s troops of the
tant Ibrtress. and the sn.aH .. i -t ^^ ^tVe^^ "' ,"7 " T^ '•"••°^-
»as in , 7,)J oufjht to l,e of the vJ-.Zr . ' ^'"""'" ("""' '^■'^'^ "'"" it
fi,13. Are the Troops in .u^l-'-f'^^.u '■''?'''"' "'"' ^""^'''•"' ^" I"-""''^t it.
a i.u. arc en,>loyed L .uard^ on pulf "ull!:'"' '" '"'""^ "' l""-^-No; ,,ut
,c;^:l:.l^" ;l:'^..!;:^i:':^^'^^' V: "-"-^ -n-'i^^ - .1.-0 situations in which co,..-
mon police are e.nployed in th,s countr y^-No ' '" """ '^'""""'" '" ^^■'''^'' ^'^-
(t.-i.^. .My (juestKjii applies t„ the "uardiii.r „r „.w,l ■ v Ti . • • ,
Lower Cnnada are .a (i, ,|,,, ,„.j m"o , •! " a, .f ? ' t ' !' '"■'""''"' """''' '""
«u,nd for their protection, to prirttet'"''/''"^''""" T'' " '""''" ""'''^"y
»" charge of lliL persons con L^l" , , ^ ' ' "'^ ''?"""" = '"'* '^ ""'''='0^ -'^^
interior manauenent of the « . ' ""'' '"•"'" ■■^' "'""'^"■'' '" ''" "'•'' "'''
1
I
inter
'i-,0. /\re
OMMiTTia;
cmif^rniits who j.„
«)t' <Miiijimrii.s, m|„)
H do enlist ineii in
i)y rimii wlio orttrs
rvico.
tor colonial nrrvice
1 tFio country nnd
lion of persons U\
d and mc disap-
lice of not obtain.
Ro to the Unitrd
-Hiiril to the exact
fniU'd States,
r of rnen cjf tlmt
-I'liiro would be
■a.suie ivliicii J do
o)>iiiioii, to be of
C'aniida to tlie
<o at Canada, to
1 do not.
file enipioynient
I I liavc to tlie
ill) e(nial number
tliat the ollicers
itii the |)eo|ilu of
tor their iniiitury
I Caiiiida, in niy
:er6 tvould be of
and considering;
ou^llt to 1)1' fo7
II times kept in
to withdraw a
cr, uceordiiig to
art of the pro-
Jiie whatever in
e wcrt; several
St war, but they
expensive.
>. The militia
f confidence in
lion of rcf^'idar
Hired in Jndiu.
ie!<tion, do you
es in time of
ies in time r,f
troops of the
a very impor-
)w less than it
'.o Jirolect it.
e?— No; but
II wliich coui-
cipal ijaols in
I'lall military
!!!ilit:!ry have
' do with the
G'-)('). An-
ON MILITAUV KSTAIJM.SHMKNTS IN THE COLONIES.
47
.♦
{if
There arc ; turnkeys toke care of Ut. Hon. f.«nertl
Sir JumtM Kimjii,
8 July i8a$.
(».')6. Arc not felons confined in those cnols
them. ^
r>57. Are the luMp. not employed, to some extent, in performin).' those services
which are m this country performed liy the police ?— No. The Rimrds at the gooU
are only employed m the manner I have before mentioned ; but tliey huvc nolliina
to do «ith the internal police of the town. Tii'j military are liable (us in this
comilry) to be called out by the civil u.uthorities to (piell nota.
ClH. Ill point of fact, men arc employed in Canada in |K;rformin;.' duties nt n
Rttol, 111 which the military are not emploved in tliis country "r Only us I have men-
tioned. In this country the jrauls have, I believe, no military protection : u small
iion-commi^Moned olhcer's gmni mounts daily at the two principal prisons in
Lower Canada.
(irxj. Is that owiiif" to the comparative insecurity of the gaols ?— Yes.
btJo. Wij-ht not those gaols be so improved as not to require a military j;uttrd?
— Certainly ; but the civil authorities of the country would, I think, nevertheless
consider u small military >;uard necessary to prevent tho escape of prisoners,
I believe that in all the colonies such protection is utVorded.
(JO I. Would it not be very desirable that the ^hoIs should be improved, so that
It would not be necessary that they should bo nn'.ved there .'—The officers in
the command of tlie troops are always desiiou.'* "i' ;,'iii,,iiishinK as much as possible
the military duties.
b<)i. Was it ever broiifrht under yo..r consideration when you were (here,
whether it would not be more ex|)edieiit to render the gaols stronger, and theiebv
to relieve the soldiers from the necessity of guarding them ?— The improvement qf
the prisons at Quebec and .Montreal was a subject which I brought under Uic
notice ol llie legislature, and at my recommendation considerable sums of money
were voted for that purpose.
f)6;j. In consequence of the sums of money being voted, did any reduction take
place in the amount of troops required for the safe keeping o» persons ?— No.
I think tlie gaol at Montreal was under repair when I left Canada; but a smalt
guard, consisting of a sergeant and 1 1 men (to afford three or four sentries), will
still be considered necessary.
CO4. At each gaol ?— Yes ; one at Montreal, and another at Quebec.
6b5. Do you not think gaols might be made sufficiently secure without the
employment of troops ? — Unquestionably they might.
Ofil). Are they ut present suClciently secure :— I should say not, for prisoners
did in fact escape both from the gaol at Montreal and Quebec when I was in
('anaila.
fit);. Do you think something ought to Ik; done to prevent soldiers being em-
ployed in that service r— I think any measure that can diminish the extent of mili-
tary duty is viry desirable.
tiOS. M'ouid not that diminish it, so far as it goes ?— The small guards that are
attached to these two goals at Montreal and Quebec would be saved by it.
()()(). Suppose a number of prisoners were obliged to be removed from one place
to another, would a iiiiiitaiy guard be required? — I have no recollection of ai:v
thing ol the kind hiip|)enii)i;. If the civil power made a re(|uisition to the military
authoritits, that any number of men were indispensal)ly necessary to remove pri-
soner?., no doubt sucli demand woukl i)e complied witii, but I do not recollect any
>uch request being made while 1 was in Canada.
C70. Is it the custom to call out a military guard ut Quebec, in case of common
ilisturlmnces in the towuf — No.
(71. Nor in such eases as police would be able to manage here? — No such
thing took place during the time I commamled in Canada.
G7-'. Even if the troops were not to do duly at the gaols, do you think it would
be cx|)edient to reduce llie |)resent forcer — 1 think it would be highly injudicious,
lor the reasons which I have before stated, to reduce in any way the number of
troops now serving in Canada. It might bo possible to take away one battalion, if
a certain portion of tiie militia wen; regularly trained and always kept in an
(.thcient slate; but uitlulrauing any portion of the regular force now in Canada
Mould, in my opinion, have a Ixid moral ell'eet, and induce His Majesty's Canadian
Mjbjects to UuuL th.at (ireai Hritain attached less imponaiice to the colony than
I
formerly
b;.)- 1 think
vo
u said that, although keeping on the establishment a re
giroent
more
48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Rt. Hon. General more Of less, might not affect the general question of peace or war, still I suppose if
!>ir Jam.! Kempt, the reduction was carried below that point, below 2,400 men, which I tliink you
8 July 1835.
Stated as the amount of English in that country, might not that appear tobetray
a sort of weakness on the part of Enj^land ?— I think it might have that effect.
674. Do you consider the troops necessary merely as a defence against the
United States, and not as requisite for the internal peace of the country ? — When
I was in Canada, troops were not absolutely necessary to preserve the internal
peace of the country ; but in the position in which Canada is placed with respect
to the United States, and seeinff that there are very considerable depdts of military
stores in the colony, and a fortress to protect, the force now there is highly neces-
sary in my opinion.
675. "i ou have said, that on account of the extent of frontier witich you have to
defend, that you consider that force rcquisi .e ; and you afterwards said, you consi-
dered there were only troops requisite tc defend the single garrison that exists
there ; explain that answer ?— The extent of frontier was only alluded to, to show
the facility of entering Canada from the United States ; and having built, at great
expense, a fortress to uphold our dominion in that part of the world, the colony
ought not to be left so destitute of troops, as not to have the means of piotecting
it, in the event of any sudden invasion from the United States.
676. For the protection of the garrison, to prevent a surprise? — Yes.
677. Are you aware that the militia was called out and organized duriu" the
war with the United States?— Yes, a certain portion were called out. "^
678. When was that organization allowed to drop ?— I suppose after the con-
clusion of the war; the training ceased, and the arms were returned into store.
679-. Po you mean to say that, during the whole time you were in the country,
the militia were not organized ?— During my administration of the government of
Lower Canada, I formed the militia into companies and battalions ; but, as I before
stated, they are totally inefficient as a military body ; they can Oiily by law be calkil
out for muster in their respective parishes once a year, and are not trained to arnis,
or clothed.
(jSo. Do you not consider that it would more important to have an effective
militia there, the same as they have in ti, United States, instead of trusting to
2,000 liritish troops?— It would be very desirable to have u well-regulated efficient
militia force in Canada ; but the British troops now there would stiTl be necessary,
in my opinion.
(iSi. Do you consider that 2,400 British troops are now sufficient to protect the
country, in the view you take of it, without an organized militia?— In the event of
a war with the United States, the country can only be defended by a very con-
siderable miliiury force of regular troops and well-trained efficient militia ; in such
a case, the Canadians will, I have no doubt, evince the same loyalty and spirit
that they ilid during the last war.
682. Did yon represent to tiie Government at home here the necessity of
organizing a militia?— I represented the total inefficiency of the militia force, and
the Government were exceedingly anxious to rmve it placed upon a good footing.
683. Wouhl the permanent or^anizatio.i of a militia force be a popular measure
among them?— The militia is ft rmed iuto battalions and coui|)nnies, and is a
formidable boily upon paper, but the men are not in any way trained to arms, the
law only allowing the governor to call them out for muster in their parishes one
day in each year. The Canadians have a great desire to become officers of militia,
but frequent trainings, such as would be necessary to render it an efficient force',
would be an unpopular measure in time of peace : to that cause do I attribute the
failure in the House of Assembly of the plan which I recommended for the
improvement of the militia.
684. Did you allude to the present state of the representation, where 67 out of
the 72 are in opposition to Government; did you allude to the state of the
coimtry as rendering it dangerous to leave it entirely to a militia?— In tlie present
state ol l.<Jwer Canada it would certainly be injudicious to put arms into the hands
of the militia; and at no time should the colony be left for its protection entirely to
a militia torce, in my humble opinion.
(jS.--). Was the question of the expense of the payment of the troops ever yet
under the consideration of the legislature in Canada?— Never ; it would be (juitc
lio|)( less to expect they «ould undertake such u charge.
liSli. For wlial reason r -Uecuusu ihey look to Great Uriiain to protect them.
(.87. [)o
i
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 49
^ 687. Do you not think it equitable and fair that the expense should fall on
Canada ?— I think it but fair that Canada and all tiie colonies should do so, as far
as their ability goes ; but I think it very unlikely that the House of Assembly
would vote any money to pay the regular troops, even if the revenue of the colony
would admit of it ; it is almost altogether derived from custom-house duties, and
every part of the revenue, not deemed indispensably necessary to defray the ex-
penses of the civil government, is appropriated by the legislature to a variety of
local objects connected with the improvement of the country ; such as roads and
bridges, building and improving gaols and court-houses, maintaining charitable in-
stitutions, &c. If the money thus appropriated were applied to the payment of the
troops, the legislature would have to impose direct taxes upon the people for all the
above services. There are no county assessments in Lower Canada, for any
pur|)ose whatever.
688. Supposing the question were put to them, either you must pay these troops
or raise a militia to take care of your defence, would there Ite any difficulty in
getting money from them ?— I think there would ; and it would be a very impru-
dent communication to make to the legislature, in my opinion.
689. You arc aware the British troops in India arc paid by the country?
— Yes.
f)()0. Ought not the same principle to apply in V one case as the other,
considering tlie advantages Canada enjoys ?— I should say so, were the two
countries similarly circumstanced ; for (as I liefore stated) I "think colonies should
defray tlie expenses for their defence, when they are able to do so ; but India is an
immense empire with a <; - at revenue capable of maintaining an army for its
defence, and that revenue is at the sole disposal of the East India Company :
Canada, on the contrary, has a small revenue (at the disposal of the colonial
legislature), and I feel satisfied that the House of Assembly will never impose
taxes for the payment of the King's troops in the colony.
691. During the time you remained there was any proposition made by the
(olony to raise two regiments, provided they were allowed to officer them them-
selves.?— No.
692. Were no applications made to you to obtain commissions for the sons of
the principal huuied proj^rietors ?— No such applications were made to me : if such
had been made to me by any individual of that description, for a commission,
I should certainly have forwarded it to tiic Commander-in-chief in England, and
recommended it in the strongest manner to his favourable consideration. I may
observe, there were several Canadian otlicers who distinguished themselves during
the last war, particularly Colonel de Salabery.
<'9.]- Do you consider the nuniber of artillery and engineers there merely the
proportion which the number of the regiments of the line would require for ordi-
nary service?— Considering c have an important fortress in Canada and works in
progress, I consiiler the number of artillery and engineers now there necessary for
the general service of the provinces.
694. Will you turn your attention to the Return which has been placed before
you, page 37?— Tlie two first in the list are sinecure appointments, viz. the go-
vern(jr and lieutenant-governor of Quebec, and will cease with the present pos-
sessors ; all the others are necessary appointments, and have duties to perform.
fi9,';- Does it appear to you it would be advisable to diminish the number or the
expenditure of any of those other appointments which are attached to the garrison
of Quel)ecr— No, there are only two, viz. the town-major and the town-
sergeant, and they arc necessary for currying on the duties of the garrison.
(i9(i. What is your opinion with regard to the military staff in that Return?-—
1 am not aware that any reduction can be made in the military staff. The regi-
me . officers who may happen to command the troops at Amherstburg, Pene-
tanguishone, and several other small posts in Upper Canada, have a small
allowaiice, charged as staff pay, to cover extra expenses to which they arc sub-
jected in the command. The town-major at Montreal is fully occupied with the
(jistKs of tlie garrison, and jiertoriiis, iii adiiiiion thereto, the duties of liits
quartermaster-general's department at Montreal, since the reduction of the assistant
quurtermaster-general who was slalioned there.
G97. Will you look at Fort (?eorgc : you will sec there arc five individuals put
down there as commandants; will you explain how that happens I'-Tiicrc mu.<t
0.1 I. ,1 |,J^yg
lit. Hon. Generui
Sir Janes Kempt,
8 July 1835.
I
I I
If
I'i
I
8 July l8;i
,';o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Rt. Hon. Gpneral liave been five (iill'cient commundiints in tlie course of tlie year; tlie senior vcin-
Sir Jamis Kaniit. mciitiil officer for the time bciiij;; is the coiiiinanchint.
698. Then in fact you consider that that amount of 1,549/. for garrison staft-
pay as necessary? — I do.
b()(). VVitii reference to the mihtary staff, amountini» altogether t(» 6,325 /., do
you consider the whole of that necessary ?— Tlie deputy adjutant-general and' the
deputy «|uarterniaster.gcneral arc stationed at head (jiunters, to conduct the duties
of those departments tiiroufiliout the connnand : a iienerai olficer I think indis-
pensably necessary, and also the other staff officers included in the list.
700. I observe tiiere are tinee majors of lirigade here ?— There were three at
that period acting, I presutnc.
701 . Do you consider three aid de-camps necessary? — LortI Aylmer was entitled
to three aid-de-cumps as commander of the forces; as lieutenant-general of the
staff, he is only entitled to two.
702. As major-general, how many would he he entitled to? — One.
703. What will he tlie reduction of the other staff officers, if the commander
was a major-general instead of a lieutenant-general ? — No reduction whatever ;
because the deputy adjutant-general and the deputy i|uarleruiaster-general are.
necessary to conduct the duties of their respective ilepartuieiits, wimtever may be
the rank of the officer in command.
704. Would not the commissariat allowances ttj Lord Aylmer of 567/. be re-
duced considerably? — Every oiKcer of tile staff gets foraj;;e "for horses, and other
allowances according to his rank, by War-office regulation ; and a major-general
receives less than a lieutenant-general, and a lieutenant-general less than a com-
mander of the forces.
705. I observe •lure are five chaplains : arc those live chaplains independent
of the cliaplains attached to the regiment; are they merely garrison chaplains?
I believe there is only one army chaplain now in Canada. I presume the persons
stated to be chaplains, are the clergymen who may happen to perform divine service
to the troops at the ditR'niit stations.
706. Who is tiie chaplain? — Dr. Mills.
707. Does he not reside on the spot? — Ves, and performs the duties.
70S. And does he draw the whole allowance, viz. 135/.? — I presume he draws
the allowance to which he is entitled by the War-office regulations.
709. \\'here do tiic other chaplains reside? — Wherever troops are stationed the
clergyman of the pari.',h |ierforms divine serviec to them, and the other duties
of a chaplain, and receives an allowance according to War-office regulations.
710. If you turn over the page to 3S, you will see "allowance to clergymen for
performing divine service to tin troops, 375/.," exclusive of that; also clerk to the
chaplain- — I can afford the Committee no other explanaiion on that Iip'u'. than
what I have already given. *
711. Can you give any information to the Committee with regard to the medical
staff? — The medical staff was so iniicli reduced when I was in Canada that I was
under the necessity of rei)resenting the necessity of sending out an additional
assistant-surgeon, wliicli Hi)plication liowever was not complied with at lioine, the
establishment voted by Parliament not admitting of it. The medical stall' is,
I believe, as low as it possibly can be.
71.'. Did you ever make any representations as to the necessity of reducing the
military establishments, while you were in (Janada ■ -No : I made minute inquiry
into the business transacted by die diilereiit d('|)artments, and 1 satisfied myself at
the time that none were kept upon the establishment except those that were neces-
sary to transact the military duties of the command.
713. Did it ever occur to you that any consolidation could take place in any of
the establishments by wliicli a saving could take place: are the duties of the
military secretary's department entin ly distinct froui the duties of the dt puty adju-
tant-general and the deputy (juartermaster-general ? -Tin.' military secretary has
mo.st extensive duties to perform, and they are entirely distinct from those which
the de|)uty adjutant-general and the deputy (piartennaster-general have to perfor.n.
A consolidation ui the inilitaiy di partint nts never came under my consideration j
my attention was not called to it I'roin home.
714. V\ hai are tiie duties of liie military secretary, as eontradistmgnislied Irouj
the duties of the adjutant-geniMal ? .Almost all the "military correspondoiiee pa^.ses
through tiie hand.s of the militarv si cretary, both with the Treu.si:) « , the War
Office, ai,d tlie Horse (Juards, in Kiisilami,
iiid with the coinmissariut and the
other
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
8 July 1835.
Other (lepiirtments in Canada ; all inRUers regarding finance and allowances, Ki. Hon. Gnneral
estinmtes and contnicts, rcqnirin!:; the approval of the general commandini», and i^ir Jmncs Kempt.
letters on a orcat variety of subjects, which are constantly occurrini;, are submitted
by the inilitary secretary to the sjeneral, and his decisions are communicated by
him to tlie parties concerned. Tlie deputy adjutant-general's duties are confined
to the promulgation of general orders, and to all matters touching the discipline of
the troops, to their arming and equipment : on all these points he communicates
personally with the general, and receives orders direct from him. The persons
eiii[)loycd in the military secretary's ofHce were very fully occupied when I was in
Canada,
7I,'). Is it your opinion the two departments of adjutant-general and quarter-
master-general could not be consolidated or abolished, and the duties performed
by the military secretary, seeing that the commander-in-chief has got three aid-de-
camps? — The highest military autiioritius in this country have always had the
greatest objection to blending the departments of the army ; but in time of peace
one chief might certainly conduct the business of the adjutant-general and quarter-
master-general's department, wit!) proper assistance.
716. Can you give us any information relative to the storekeeper's department?
— There are several ordnance storekeepers in Canada, but no storekeeper's
department.
717. Will you state for what purpose a coxswain and boats crew are maintained
for the general commanding, and sometimes one also for the (luartermastcr-general ?
— The (juarterniastor-goncral has a boat's crew to atVord him tlie means of board-
ing vessels, and superintending embarkations and disembarkations ; but I had very
little use for a boat's crew, in fact I had none, when I was in Canada.
718. Can you give us any information relative to tlic commissariat department?
— I was desired by the Government at house to make every |)racticable reduction
in the commissariat, and I made minute inquiry into the nature and extent of
the duties which the department then performed, |)articularly at Quebec, the head-
quarters, and the result was an impression tiiat no reduction of any moment could
tlien have been ell'cctcd. The comnii-sary-L^eneral has very extensive and responsible
duties to perform, which require his unreuiitting attention ; tlie military chest is
under his charge, and the public expenditure of every kind (except the payments
from the colonial revenue) passes through his hands. I found the accounts kept in
Canada very voluminous, although they are transmitted to England in a very short
mid coniprcliensive form ; and it is chietly to keep tliem Uiat so many persons are
employed in the commissariat, for the issues of provisions to the troops is a very
minor ati'air in (Janada. As a matter of economy, deputy assistant-commissaries
were kept on full pay to do the duties of clerks, under a Treasury minute; the
pay of the latter being 7,*. 6(1. a day, while the ditVcrence between full and half
pay of the officer is only /) .v. The |Hiblic by this arrangement saved 2. v. 6 d. per
day on each individual: but as the exjicniliture in the Canadas has, I believe,
been considerably reduced since I quilted the command, I apprehend that the
commissariat de()artuR'iit has also been in a corresponding digree reduced.
71;). In addiiion to the storekeepers for the ordnance department enumerated
here, is there also a storekeeper for the naval department'' — None whatever,
I believe.
7Jn. Look at the Return of the connnissariat department, there appears to be
one connnissary tor every lu men? — 'It may be so; but it is not in issuing pro-
visions, but in keeping accounts, making payments, and purchasing whatever may
be required by the public departments in the colony, that the commissariat were
cliiedy euiployed in (.'anada when I commanded there ; and the forms required to
be observed by the regulations of the Treasury occasioned much additional
trouble.
7^1. Is it the duty of the commissary to purchase provisions and provide for
the troops? — Yes, everything is pnrclia.sed by him.
722. Is it done by contract:' — -All l)y public contract.
72;}. Where there are small bodies of 1,'), 2t) or 40 men, do you consider it
necessary that a commissary should be there : if a contract is entered into, wi.'dd
not n quartermaster-sergeant, or sonic such individual, be nipable of receiviiw tb.'
rations from the contractor? — I believe there are very few such stations. An officer
is, I apprchenil, not necessary for the sole pinpose of examining and issuing rations
a' small \u»\.s of that description ; and under a dilVerent system of account, I should
tiiink that the number of persons employed may be 'Jiruiuij!'.'.".!.
o. 1 1,
11 2
14. It
52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Sir ^r.^j^""",' 'l^- ^' «PP^«" l*y the Returns that there are 40 men at Penetan-Tuishone and
SnJa^ncsJC^ft. yet there are two deputy cou.missary-generals, at an expense of 27-j7 and 22^'
8 July 1835 •' ""■ "'"f ""'^ " '''''°"'''^'' " 79 /• ; niaking a total of e-jo /. for the mere
y '«36. comm>ssarmt: how can they be employed P-Penetanguishone is now the ^reat
depot m Upper Canada, from whence presents are issued to the Indians : but that
will not justify, in my opinion, keeping pernmncntly there so great a commissariat
establishment. 1 he presents are issued at one period of the year, and I should
think may be sent up annually. j , o. uuiu
725- Is there not a fixed quantity of stores given out each year to the Indians?
— Yes, the presents arc issued to the Indians under fixed regulations: but I may
mention that every pains has been taken of late years to reduce the expense of the
Indian department, and to induce the different tribes to conform to the usages of
civilized life, and to become fanners. Implements of husbandry and seeds^have
been m many instances issued to them with that view, in lieu of the usual presents.
726. Is there not a considerable form, and some officers appointed generally to
superintend that department?— Yes. *' ^lany lu
727. Then if that is done annually, and the stores forwarded at that time, what
use would there be for maintaining so large an establishment for a depdt?— There
was no such establishment at Penetanguishone when I was in Canada, and I see
no necessity for maintaining so large a one permanently there, us I before stated.
728. I think you stated in your evidence that you were commander-in-chief of
Nova Scotia as well as Canada?— As commander of the forces, I comuiandcd in
both provinces.
729. Were you in tiie habit of passing any time in Nova Scotia?— I adminis-
tered the government of Nova Scotia for eight years.
730. It appears, according to this Return, that the force in Nov., Scotia and its
dependencies, exclusive of Newfoundland, amounts to 2,036 men, rank and file:
IS It your opinion, from your long acquaintance with that colony and its depend-
encies that that number of troops is absolutely necessary to be kept up there ?—
It is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, to have a respectable force of re^rulur
troops in that part ot North America. New Brunswick is in the Nova Scotia com-
mand ; and in the present unsettled state of the boundary question, I consider the
number ot troops now there indispensably necessary.
731- Having reference to tiie United States alone?— Yes
732. Is there any nilitia force in Nova Scotia :— There is, and it is on a better
footing than the mihtia of Canada; they have three days training in the year, and
some ot the regiments make a good appearance.
733- Uo you speak generally, or of any particular district?— Throughout the
cTnadr " """ '"'''"^ ^"'"*'*' '^ "''"" ^ '""'''' ^'^"'■' ^""''"« "'"» '"
734- Is it your opinion that the militia could and ought to be made more effective
in Nova Scotia ^-^I think it exceedingly desirable, situated as our North American
colonies are, in the immediate vicinity of the United States, that a certain portion
ot the mihtia in each province should be well trained to arms, and always kept in
a state ot etiieiency. •' "^
73.5. f>o you iliink if the militia of Nova Scotia and its dependencies were ren-
dered efiective, still it ,»„uld be necessary to keep up the amount of regular Britisn
troops to the extent of 2,o:j(i men ?-^-Not to that extent; but a certain portion of
egular troops would nevertheless be necessary, in my opinion, to support the
mihtia ; and u.uler existing circumstances, I think the number of troops now there
indispensably necessary CJreat Britain has always afforded her North American
colonies, even in time of peace, a certain numher of troops for their protection ; and
were they to be with.lrawn, or any considerable portion of them, I fear it would
have (as I beJore stated) a very bad moral etlect, and tend to weaken the attachment
01 the colonists to the mother country. Halifax is an important naval station,
wall a dock-yard and arsenal ; the only one indce.i which we have on the coast of
America; and to preserve it is an object of great national importance, in my humble
opinion. •'
73<' •Sup[)osing the case of a contem|)late(i rupture between this country and
JKuu'vwn, •.■.•on <! t.iei-e not bv as much time affoixiwl to us to send troops to Halifax.
as there would be to the United States to attack it?— On tl
regular troops to be withdrawn eniir
r
^
the Nova Scotia comuiaiul
le contrary, were the
ely Irom Halifax, which is the h('ad.(|u;ufer.s of
it might Ik in the power ot America, on a dcclaralion
of
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 53
8 July l$a5.
I consider the
of war, suddenly to embark a force at Boston, land near to Halifax in 48 hours, Rt Hon. General
and to destroy the dock-yard by a coup de main. Si r James Kemp t.
737. What force of regular troops has the United States ? — I do not know tho
exact number ; but the destruction of our only naval station in North America would
be so popular a service, that volunteers from tiie militia would in all probability be
employed, as well as regular troops, to augment the attacking force.
738. VV^ould not the militia of Nova Scotia be equally icady to come to the
assistance of the garrison, as the militia of the United States to attack it r —
Undoubtedly.
739. Looking at America as a great state, and looking at her complicated
interests with this country, do you think it likely, or within the range of probability,
that she would send a number of troops to Nova Scotia, without this country being
aware of her intention so to do ? — Upper Canada was invaded by the Americans
at the commencement of the last war, when we were little prepared for it ; and it
can only be by a sudden attack (unexpected on our part) that they can hope to get
possession of Halifax.
740. Suppose there were any division between this country and America, would
there not be sufficient time to reinforce these garrisons of Nova Scotia and Canada
pending tliese negotiations ? — It appears to me reasonable to suppose that there
would be sufficient time to send out a force from this country, to Halifax parti-
cularly.
741. Do you think it right to maintain a force in this country so large, for the
purpose of meeting such a contingency? — Yes, I do, for the reasons which I have
stated.
742. You mentioned that troops could be embarked from Boston ; are you not
aware tliat almost four-fifths of the regular troops of the United States are to the
westward of that frontier, and not on the sea coast? — I am not aware of that
circumstance. Previously to my leaving Canada the Americans sent a considerable
body of regular troops near to the frontier of the State of Maine ; I think about
I, '200 men.
743. Were they regulars or militia ? — Regulars, under a general officer.
744. Was not there at that time a disposition on the part of the inhabitants of
the State of Maine to take possession of the district then disputed, and were not
those regular troops sent to maintain peace? — Ostensibly, perhaps, to maintain
peace ; but I believe, to support the u)ilitid of the State of Elaine was the real cause
of their being sent there.
74,5. You are aware that a regiment was withdrawn from Nova Scotia for the
period of a year? — I believe so, but not when I comuianded there.
746. Are you aware of any inconvnience being sutiered at Nova Scotia in con-
sequence of the removal of that regiment? — No.
747. Do you know Annapolis? — Yes, it is a small post on the western coast
of Nova Scotia. It was formerly tlie capital of tlie |)rovince, and a place of so»ne
strength, having a atrong fort, which is now in ruins. There are in fact no regular
fortresses or places of strength within the coiinnand. A citadel for the protection of
Halif.ix is now constructing, but will not be finished for some years to come.
748. Do you consider the estalilislunents at present maintained in Nova Scotia
more tlian adctjuate to the performance ot the duties rc.juired, and that it is in
proportion to the establishment in Canada? — I consider them necessary for the
performance of the duties required.
749. Are you acquainted witii the [)ost of York ? — York is a small redoubt at
the entrance of the harbour of Halifax, and a signal station from wlience all vessels
entering the harbour are hailed.
750. Is it necessary to keep that up ? — Certainly.
751. There is Frederickstown, where there are 27^ troops maintained; where is
that situated ? — It is the capital of New Brunswick, and where the legislature
meet.
7,') J. Is there any fort there? — None whatever.
7,53. It appears that in tlie number of men maintained in Canada and main-
tained in Nova Scotia, theie is not a difierence of more than 300 or 400 men ;
and yet it appears by the Returns that the difierence in the whole comn)issariat of
Nova Scotia is 4,930/., whereas at Canada it amounts lo I,'),0l6/.. cdu yuu explain
to the Connnittec the reason why there is so great a dis|)roportion in the expense
of the two connnissiiiiats for an army of nearly the same amount?— The only
explanation I can give the Committee is, that the establishment of the commissariat
o. 1 1 . 11 3 depends
ilji
iil
I
54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HEFOHE SELECT COMMITTEE
Sr'i^r,:;' f'-'P^"d«verymucl,o„theamountof the expenditure in the colony : voluminous
'^ accounts are necessary to be kept in Cunacia, and I apprehend the ureal di.-
8 July 1835. proportion ni the ex|)ense is owinj: lo that circunistunce.
7j4- But takinjr tiie number of troops to be the same, woulii not, in ordinary
cncnmstances, the number of commissaries be nearly the same?— Undoubtedly
but It IS the number of stations in Canada as compared to Nova Scotia and
the disproportion in tiie military expenditure, that gives rise to the increase of
establishment in the former colony.
7,55- The same remark applies to the medical expenditure; can you account
tor thalr In the one case, for Canada, the medical staff pay is 2,6^,41., and for
iNovd Scotia It is i,5;5o /. ; can you account for the difterence?— It is owin.' to the
number ot military stations in Canada beii^ much fireater tiian in Nova Scotia.
7,5b. The same number of troops are distribut(;d into a iireater number of
quarters? — Yes. °
7.57- Durinn; the time the militia of Lower Canada was called out at the war
were they not very efleetive and essentially useful to the defence of the country ?-
1 was not in Canada durinjj tiie uar, at least only at the termination of it for a few
month?. I understood that the Canadian militia evinced j-reat loyalty and spirit
when called out; and that the portion of them that fought against the enemy in
tlie held under Colonel de Salabery (an otlicer who had served in the British
army), distinguished themselves very much.
75*^- Voii know of no reason why they shoidd not be as efficient as the United
States militia ? — None whatever.
75<). Is not the present force too great for jieace and too small for war?— Con-
sidering the present state of Canada, the extent of its frontier, and the other cir-
cnmstances to which I have ftlbre alluded in my evidence, I consider the present
force not more than is necessary in time of peace, and much too small lor a period
ot war. '
760. Do you consider that those troops that you now require could at all keep
the held against the Americans if they invaded that eouutiy, which they would not
be disposed to do unless in great force ; would not the wiiole of the troo|)s he
obliged to retire to some garrison or strougiiold ?— Were the Americans suddenly
to invade Canada in very superior numbers, our troops, if unable to meet tliem in
the field, would be obliged to retire up.;ii Quebec, in the Lower province, and to
some strong position in Upper Canaii.t, until reinforcements arrived from En-land
and the militia were called out. " '
7()i. Could the whole Ibrce maintain themselves for si.v months in Quebec
without the militia to aid them?— If the regular troops in Quebec were lelt
to themselves, unaided by the militia and the inhabitants of the country, they
would not be able to keep Quebec lor six months ; but that is a state of tliin'-s not
likely to arise. "
702. At the present moment tliere are no militia, consequently the present
tioo|)s could not protect themselves if invacied r— Hut the governor would call out
and arm a certain portion of the militia at tlie first moment of invasion ; and with
their assistance, Quebec could be protected until relief was aftorded from this
country.
703. And you consider Quebec to be the key of Canada.-— Yes, I do.
Maiiia, 14" die J alii, 1835.
HOBEKT (iOKDON, E8QU1RE, IN THK CHAIR.
:
'J'/iuiii'i.s Aniier,
Kb(J.
H'uly ;8jj.
Thomas Archer, Esip, called in ; and Examined.
7t)4. LOOK at the iletui ns ; in page 42, you will find the amount of the expenses
of !h<- rnmmi^ariat inCaiiada to be !5,t--SH/. 14.^. ^\d.; aiid ifyuu will refer to
tiie amount of the expense of the commissariat, in page .'')4, you will find the
wiiole amount of tlie eommissariat in Nova Scotia to be 4,ij3u /. I .' s. ' 1 id. ? —
Ves, it is so.
71;-,. li
ON MILITARY nSTAIJUSIIMRNTS IN THE COLONIES, r,,--,
It as tlic United
7f),'5. It appcnrs by the Returns tliat the number of troops in N-^vf iia and
in Canada arc nearly equal ; that there is not a difference of abov ;tween
the amount of the troops in Canada and Nova Scotia : be i<ind ci "xpiain
to the Coinmittfe why there is such a difference between the amoi. j expense
of the commissariat at Canada and at Nova Scotia ; and state wny it should be
three times tiie umnunt at the one place as it is at the other, for nearly the same
number of troops? — 1 «|)prehenil the difference is chiefly in consequence of the
distribution of the troops in Canada, the peater dispersion of the troops; in Nova
Scotia they arc more concenimted ; wherever troops are more dispersed, of course
it reipiirts a greater strength of the commissariat establishment, there being con-
scfincnily more business to be done.
7(i(). Can you state any other reasons r — No other particular reason occurs to
nie at this nioment, but tlie duties generally are more considerable. 1 beg, however,
to remark, that the establishment in Newfoundland is included in the charge for
Nova Scotia.
767. I observe, with reference to the duties of the commissariat in Australia,
that you have furnished the (.'cmmiltee with a written statement of the duties per-
for:iied by the commissariat there, not performed by commissaries in other
colonies : as you are aware what was the object of the Committee in requesting
your attendance, will yon give a written statement of the same descri|)lion, explain-
ing the causes of the much greater expense of the connnissariat in Canada, com-
pared with that in Nova Scotia r — I'erhaps the Committee will allow me to refer
to a letter written by Couunissary-generai lloulli, relative to the duties of the de-
pa:ttnent in (^anada. It is dated Quebec, U) January 1835, and addressed to
Major Airey, military secretary at (Quebec. Witii their permission I will read it.
Sir,
As I understand ibni it is the wish of his Lordship tiie Comaiander of the Forces, that
I should submit to hini a report (in reference to the inquiry into the Military Colonial Ex-
iieiidilure before a Coiiiiiiilti'c of the House of Commons) on the imnicdinte disbursements
ni this eonunanfl, I have the honour to lay before you nn outline of their gradual decrease
biiiec I have held tliesa|)eiiiilendeiicc of tiiese duties.
The fust rt'duelion made was the aboliiioii of the CoiiiinisLary of Transport, in the year
tS'iS, an .■nieinu I'leiieh odife, foiiaded on the law of " La Corve," and established at
Quebec and Monlriai, and aetiiig throui^hont the Lower province ; the salaries and allow-
ances of which aiiiiiiiiHcd aiiinially to yS^^ /., but its e.s|)(.tise was much more considerable
from the absence ot all eoinpcinioii in lliu duties to be performed.
Id the year l8i8 I nnddtook the drawhig tip of all public contracts, hitherto performed
by notaries, at tin expense to the public of 300/. per annum in ordinary years, but which
wouki have been double during the extensive military works carried on at the Kideau,
u|)on the Ottawa, the Isleaux Noix, iind elsewhere, about that period.
My early iinciilion was likewise dircclcd to the hiriie bateau estublishaieiit at Lower La
Chine, eonsisiioi; of nn ofliecr of the eommissaiial and his (le|)artinenl, havini; this charge
and that of the luihlary locks, a detaehiueiit of troops, two bateau conductors, 50 bateau-
luen or voyageurs, ;iiid 42 bateaux. Tliis expenditure has been abolished, and the service
leuioved with innie edieieney to Montreal, wlieie seven bateaux atid six men are sufHeient
for the serviee. Hy a jiidieiims reduction 111 the toll-rates, and a more protnpt management
ol these loeks, the revenut,', whieli was luilc more than sufficient to defray some dl-con-
(liieted repairs, lias inereased t'roiii 400/. to 3,000 /. per annum, and the locks themselves in
■ 1 high state (if repair. 'I'lie liateaux at Kiiigsloii, at William Henry, at St. John's, and
Isle aiix Noix ami l)riiinm<iii(l Inland, l(i in niiuiber, were also abolished ; this has iiitio-
diici'd a reduction of about 1,500/. per ainuiin.
In the yciir iH;(o the establislimeiu of the Comunssariat of Accounts was abolished, and
their recimls and llie greater part of their duty transferrc^d to this department ; making un
annual re<luetii>ii of 'j, 700/. in the r xpeiuliture of the eonnnand.
At the close of the year 1833 the allowance of barrel bulk ceased ihrtuighout the com-
mand, except al IVnelanguislnne, makiiitr an economy of 500/. annually.
\arious changes, comprising tnany re<liietions, from time to time had been carried into
ell'ecl in the Iiuli.ii department, up to the eli>>e of the year iHjp, when a sum of i0,00o/.
annually was assigned for this service liy a Minnie of the Right honourable the Lords
('oinmi.-.sioners of His Majesty's 'I'reasury. The share of tSiis apjjropriation in the Upper
province was found al (Irst instillieient, aiul a large excess oceiiried ; but by the adofition
of a suti8e<|uent system, the expenditure Irom the military chest in the Upper province will
'>= liiiiiied •;: i,5,;(fii.)/., ;;;iu iii ih^ Lir.ver province to 4,f,oo/. ; making an aaiiuai reduction of
2'homas Archtr,
K8(|.
14 July 1835.
be!
i.',l'ji)/., coiiimeiieiiii; liam the 1st Api
As regards the Commissariat Department, the eKlaliiishmenl amounted to4Jonicers on
my arrival on this eominaiid, iinineiliately on which the service of the Kideaii eanal eoin-
mcnriil, and a-^ that wurk pii'Ci eded I wa- ihmiim led to detach four ollieers to be stationeil
0. 1 I. a 4 along
1 I
f t
Thomm Archer,
Esq,
14 July l8a5-
'!
56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
niong flic line of tlip works in operation ; hut notwithstanding this deirond, nnd ti.e nl.oli-
rilTor^f'.'!!' r''T' ^^f"^ <l<>ty"ill employ, (m,rofticm),aml noiwid.nandi r
the addition of these brnnchea „f the service, nnd that of those previonsly detailed, to « v
own, I have been able to reduce, gradually, n.y establishment to 32 officers. ^
These reductions were of course gradual, effected with proper anticipation, and by con-
densing the business to be performed. How far it may be extended, o if anV extcnsic^n is
.0 bo expected I cannot immediately offer an opinion; but I may reasonably Z ,0
what has been done as a pledge and a guarantee of my constant attention to my instruc-
tions on this important point. ^ ""■u»-
It is right, however, that I should state to you, for his Lordship's information, that I do
not in J"*tice to the service, recommend any further immediate reduction; what remains
o be done on thi» poit.t must be prepared and adopted with caution. The experience of
he Inst two epidemics in the years .832 and 1834, j.ariicularly the fbrraer, in the midst of
Inch were made the payments and identification of* ,,688 commuted pensioners, amount
'"!,'<" 40,5.'->i/. sterling, will ,„akc 11 sufficiently onerous on the department, with their
present strength, to meet the return of this fearful disorder. The service of the quarantine
e tabi ishinent, the various demands ,•„ ,l,e department under such circumstances, a'nd a sense
of piudence ai.d efficiency on my own part, deter me from any suggestion thttt miKht be
visited on the duties to he performed. ^* ■• i ■" inifeiii oe
Indeed it is incunib<.nt on me to acknowle.lRC and to represent the prompt sacrifice and
. landonment of al private considerations or .Tomestic safety which was manifested in the
midst of he general panic by the ofheers of the .lepartinent. and their unremitting attention
and discl.nrge of ihe public business, and 1 lament the dilhculty of conveying a proper
sense of this ^eal, whicf, is so uuuii appreciated in the moment of its exertion.^ I solicit ti.e
high influence and authority of his Lordship to strengthen an.l confirm this representation.
Ilikewise offer to his Lordship's consideration the many duties which devolve on tl>e de-
partment, and which do not appear in the accounts. The distributions to the Indians at the
various posts scattered throughout the country, are ma.le under the personal superintend-
ence of an officer. The pensioners settled in distant parts, unable from age, sickness or
poverty, to appear, are to be visited and identified in the neighbourhoods of Bylown, of
T.ron.o and Montreal, nt Drummondville and elsewhere ; a duty essential to the dete.ti "n
"t rrand. Ihe ordnance c.mlracts and i)urchases. though very properly so, made l.v the
commissarint. as a means of further publicity to the tVansactions and security ,0 the
public. All these are employments which must be considered in the strength of the de-
partment, and whicli I must be prepared to meet. ^
The previous explanations will lay before the Commander of the Forces the tanaible
rtttails o( the reductions, as they stand in priiof in tbo public accounts ; but others, « hicl. re-
late lo the reduction ol price or the conduct of business, bv a judicious management of tl„.
slate of the market, are not so readily brought to view or so capable of proof, ihoUL'b mucli
more important in the aggregate. It is <mi these operations chiefly that the advanla-rc of
rank, experience or judgment, rest their claim to favour or employment; and though ffeel
thai I nossess the power of producing this testimony, it Incomes me to recollect tfiat it is
amply before the goverunient in my public accounts, and in my correspondence Wuh the
autlionties at lumie. i therefore reliain from intruding these details, which from their sub-
jcct must he voluminous, before his Irtjrdsliip's consideration.
I have the honour to be, .Sir, your most obedient humble servant,
(signed) n. J. Routh.
7(^8. riierc apiKnfs it. Quebec, l.y a Return before the Committee, No. 8, to be
\}^2 rank and file, cansistmg of artillery and engineers, and foot ; and there appears
to be at Quebec a cominissary-gencral, an assistant commi.ssary-t'enemi, ami 1 1
. e|)iity assistant comininissa.i.Ks.^enerai, exclusive of seven coiviuctors, issuers
(rivers, labourers, cScc, at an expense of nearly .l.ooo /. : can you state in wimt uav
that establishment can l:e employed for the uianajreuietit of the rations and the
accounts ot so small a number ?— I shouUI prelace ul.at I have lo sav in explana-
tion, by sfatinj; that the deputy-assistants "ho fortn the greater number of officers
are m point ot tact principally employed in makitifj out the accounts, and ifthev
were not so employed you must have a greater nunibcr of per.sons in the capacity
ot clerks to perforin those duties. ' ^
76<>, Their pay is •24t>/. each ?— Yes, that includes the allowances.
770. What is the dilference between that and the pay of a clerk?— The pay of
a clerk would fie accordinjr to his deserts and fitness for his employment, at diffe-
rent rates. ' •' '
77 "• 'I'hecominissary-freneral, Routh, is placed at the head of the department at
{^ij!-.ie.-; arc liis uutie; toniitied to titc 98^ rank nnJ flic al Quebec, or do tiiey
extend to the whole province ? -They extend to the whole province ; the whole Jf
tiie tnanagement, us tar as tlie cominissariat duties are concerned, is vested in ( lom-
inissa.y-geticial Routh. 1 should add, tliut with regaid to the other oIKcers who
arc
MMITTEE
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. ,57
md, nnd the nboli-
itl noiwidistanding
ily deuiiled, 10 my
cers.
Blion, and by con-
if any extension is
-ensonably refer tu
ion to my instruc-
inntion, that I do
ion ; what remains
rhe experience of
ler, in ihe midst of
Misioners, amount-
rtinent, with iheir
of the quarantine
lances, and n sense
on th!\t might be
r>inpt sacrifice and
manifested in the
emitting attention
onvcying a proper
•tion. I solicit the
lis represeniatiun.
levolve nn tl>e de-
the Indians at the
lonal superintend-
age, sicl<t)ess or
ds of Bylown, of
I to tlie detection
' so, made l>y the
security to the
engih of liie de~
rces the tangible
others, vihicli re-
iiiiiigement of the
>i)f, ihounh much
the advantage of
md though I feel
•collect that it is
iidencc wlih the
1 from their sub-
le servant,
«. J. Routh.
•e, No. 8, to be
I lliere appears
^neriil, und 1 1
iclors, issuers,
te in wimt uay
atiotis and tiiu
ay in cxplaiia-
iher of orticeis,
ts, and if tjioy
ill tlic ca{>acity
? — Tile pay of
tncnt, at dillc-
de|)artrncnt at
c, or do they
; the wliule oY
ested ill Com-
' olHcers wlio
arc
^:
are employed at Quebec, their duties should not be considered as confined to the
accounts at Quebec, but as extendinj; to the accounts of the provisions and iiioney,
and to every account and transaction connected with the commissariat duties, which
are spread over the whole province.
772. Do you consider that the payment of i.fioo detached pensioners requires
the payments to be made tjuartcrly, as in England and Ireland ? — The parties of
course must be in want of nmiicy ; and in proportion aa the numl^er of the paymtuta
is inulti|)!ied, it gives additional trouble to the persons who make the payments.
773. Must they not come into the commissariat office, and there be examined
before the payment is made, mucli in the same way as they are by the (/heisea
Board ; and do not these commissariat officers in fact perform, as to these 1,600
men, the duties which the Chelsea Board department does as to the pensioners on
them : — Precisely so.
774. Is not tiie labour and trouble of paying these 1,600 pensioners greatly in-
creased in consequence of the state of the country, where cultivation is very much
scattered ; where there arc small villages instead of being towns ; and where there
are no excise officers, as in England, for the payment of these pensioners? — The
payment of these pensioners is productive of a great deal of labour, more than can
be well imagined, and it has been the subject of repeated representation and com-
plaint.
775. Are not the difficulties increased, because in the scattered villages in
Canada there are no excise officers ? — Yes ; they are all paid by the commissariat.
77C. You are aware that the facility of paying pensioners in England and Ire-
land, is greatly aided by liaving excise officers who can pay the money ? — Yes.
777. Having no such aid in Canada, do you not imagine that the labour and
trouble of the commissariat is greatly increased ? — Very much.
778. With regard to these men, is it not a very important point that their
identity should be ascertained to prevent fraud, by occasional visits, or that the
men should come themselves to the commissary, or that the commissariat officer
should see them, as at Bytown or Toronto, or any other post at which these people
are assembled for tlie pur[)ose of being paid ? — I should conceive it is absolutely
necessary that the identity of these persons should be satisfactorily established,
to prevent fraud.
771). Are you aware whether any instructions are given for the purpose of
assisting in detecting frauds, by making it the interest of any person on the spot to
report immediately to the commissary, the fact of the death of a pensioner? — I
am not aware of lliat. The commissary-general reports to the Treasury, from
time to time, the decease of pensioners ; but I do not know that any induce-
ment is held out with a view to obtaining early information of the casualties that
occur.
780. In a new country like Canada, where the pensioners are very mucli scat-
tered, and where men not being pensioners can for a small trifle procure the papers
of a deceased man, upon which the claims to the pension would rest, are not, under
.such circumstances, tlie facilities of fraud greatly augmented as compared with
Englanil ?-— Certainly ; and therefore great care is necessary in making the pay-
ments. I have reason to believe that the pensioners liave derived great benefit
from receiving their pensions direct from the hands of the officers of the commis-
sariat.
78 1. Then taking all these circumstances together, are you of opinion that the
payment of i,tioo pensioners entails upon the commissariat a large proportion of
labour?— Decidedly so.
782. Should you tiiink that in Canada, where the winter sets in so severely, that
posts such as (Quebec, Isle aux Noix, Fort V.x'w., or any such posts, that it would
be possible to do away with the commissariat, and provision t!ie men as in England
and Ireland, merely trusting to the quartermaster of the regiment? — I conceive
that the troops could not be supplied with provisions by tiie quartermasters so
well or so economically as by the commissariat department, and tliat the regular
supjily and comfort of the soldier woukl be exposed to great risk, especially
in every case of movement. Independently of this serious ohjettion, there must
still be a commissariat establishment, for the iierformance of other duties than
merely that of provisioning the troops ; for instance, the commissariat is the
0.11. 1 medium
Thomat Archer,
Esq.
1 4 July 1835.
il
Thomas Archtr,
Eiq.
14 July 1835.
58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IIEFOIIE SELECT COMMITTEE
mciliurii by wliich ull the money necessary for military ami naval expenditure is
provided ; tiie commissariat officer, or some other in his place, must mai<e con-
tracts for tiic su|)piics of all the materials for the ordnance, and 11 variety of
other things which I do not at this moment rememher, occasioning a great deal of
duty, separate and distinct from furnishing provisions for tiie troops. It is to bo
recollected too, that there is only one quartermaster to each regiment, who is
always at the head-quarters of liis corp?, and that detachments of a regiment arc
often widely separated. In such circumstances the soldiers would be exposed to
much inconvenience if their subsistence were to depend upon arrangements t(> bo
made by the quartermaster. This inconvenience would be considerably aggravated
in the freijuent removals to which the military service is liable, whilst on the other
hand, the arrangements of the connnissariat are at once available for the wants of
any military force that may come within the sphere of his operations.
753. And from your knowledge of the opinion of a man of Commissary-general
Routh's character, and the report which be has made, which you have read, ilo
you think that that department in Canada has been nearly reduced to what you
probably might expect, according to tlie present system wliich exists? — I should
concm- in the opinion of Conunissary-gencral Routh ; his character as an able
otiicer stands very high.
754. Be so good as to state, from the book you have before you, the compara-
tive number of officers in Nova Scotia, including St. John's ; it is in page 54? —
There are 1 o officers in the whole.
"S.v Are you aware that the distance from Quebec to Port Amhcrstburg, in one
line, is about i,,'i()i) miles, and the distance of Penetauguishine is probably rather
more ? — I am not aware of the actual distance of these posts from Quebec.
78(5. Assuming the distance to be somewhere about that, do you not consider
such a line of country, in a great degree, many parts of it uncultivated, with jjosts
and troops scattered along the banks of the river and lakes, shut up for many
months in winter by the severity of it, where provisions are necessarily obliged to
be taken in for the troojjs for a length of time ; the distance I have mentioned, the
scattered nature of the troops, and the nature of the country, must materially add
to the necessity of having a large body of these officers for the performance of
their duties, as relates to tlie troo|)s ? — I think so, certainly.
787. Vou are attached to the commissariat department ? — Yes.
788. From your general knowledge, do you not consider such facts as necessarily
leading to the necessity of having a large number of conmiissariat officers? — Most
assuredly.
789. Have tiiey not the raising of all the money in the colonies which is
ref|uired for the public service ? — Yes.
7()o. Is it not tlie |)ractice, where there are commissaries detached, that the
money-chest is under u double lock? — WluMcvcr tiiere is a military chest, it i^ under
a double lock.
791. Now supposing there to be but one commissariat officer at a detached
station, how is the system of tlouijle lock then carried mto execution ; the system
that one officer siiould have otu; key, and another another, and that no money
should be taken out and no money put in without the knowledge of botii ; where
there is but one officer how is that carried on? — Where there is but one officer
there would be but a comparatively trifling sum ; he would not have in his hands
such a considerable siun of money as to reniler such a precaution necessary ; many
of his payments might be made, probably, by drafts on the principal at Quebec,
and which are |)aid at the Hank.
71).'. Have not the commissariat a consiilerable degree of extra duty thrown
upon them, by the payment of |)ensioners and emigrants, who went from this
country to be settlers in that country? — The commissariat iiave had a considerable
and viry trouliksonie duty thrown upon them, by the payment of a eommutatioii
to jieusioners who went to Canatia, trom time to time, with a view of ijecoming
settlers in the colony. There were accounts of commutation to settle and balances
to |)ay to nearly 1,700 men of this description; these are (piite distinct from tliu
great nunil>er of jieri-ioners who reinaiii iij)oii the {'helsca list, and wlio are atill
connnissariat.
''.V
'9.3. How are the rations provided
ui
public contract:
es, by pulilic Contract.
)|ter am
I I.
ower
anada ; is 1
t by
r94. Are
)MMITTEE
i\ expenditure is
must niiike curi-
uul II varirjty of
ij» a great deal of
)ops. It is to bo
egiuicnt, who is
»f a regiment arc
il l)e exposed to
auf^einents t(> ho
jrably agf^ravutcd
lilst on the other
for the wants of
[omissary-general
n have read, do
ced to wliut you
xists ? — I should
rioter us an ahlc
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. jy
794. Are those contracts half-yearly, or in what way arc they ? — They are
usually made annually.
7()/). Are the rations delivered by the contractor to the troops direct, and their
rccei|)t returned, or arc they delivered to the commissariat officers at the respective
stations r — They arc delivered by the contractor.
796. Are you aware whether any dcp6ts of any kind of provision arc kept in
any |)art of upper or Lower Canada, and where? — There arc de{iuts at various
places, both in Upper and in Lower Canada, at Quebec, Montreal, Isle aux Noix,
Bytown, Kingstown, Toronto, Fort George, IVnctanguishine and Amherstburg.
7y7' VVhat have been the particular kinds of stores, and the quantities, at any
given time ?— Flour, biscuit, salt meat (and formerly runi), wood, coals, candles, oil
and cotton for light. The quantities have fluctuated of course, according to the
demands of the service, I will furnish the Committee with a statement of the
riuaiitities in the stores, at several periods, within the last five years. At Toronto,
Kingston and Amherstburg, there are also stores of Indian presents.
[The same was delivered hi, as follows ;]
Thuniat Archer,
Enq.
14 July 1835.
m, the compara-
is in page ,54 ? —
hcrstburg, iu one
> probably rather
u tiucl)ec.
yon not consider
^ated, with posts
lut up for many
sariiy obliged to
p mentioned, the
it materially add
performance of
:ts as necessarily
officers? — Most
)loiiies which is
ached, that the
:hcst, it is under
:r at a detaclied
ion ; tiie system
i that no money
of botli ; wlierc
s but one otlicer
ive ill his hands
ecessary ; many
.•ipal at Quebec,
ra duty thrown
went trom this
(1 a considerable
a commutation
;w of Ijecomingr
tie and balances
istinct from the
iiu iviiu are atiu
0.) 1
I 2
Statement
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ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
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Thomas Archer,
Esq.
fru
62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMiMITTEE
71)8. Uiis any. proposal been made to pay these pensioners through any of the
constituted clergymen of the districts where they are?— I believe I may trust to
14 Julv iS'^^ '"^ memory to say, that no report to that eflect has been received at the Treasurv
<i'>- 799. Are any stores of any kind sent out .roni England now, for the use of the
army, in either of the Canudas? — Not any provisions.
^00. Arc there any kinds of stores that have l)cen supplied by the commanding
otticcrs of rej^iments ?— Not that I am aware of. "
«oi. If there are any other duties which that department has to perform
besides the supplying of the troops with money and with provisions, and the nayiu"
of the pensioners, please to state them ?-The commissariat provide monevno't
only tor the troops, inciudm.' the ordnance, but also for the naval expenditure; and
they receive and account for all monies intended for remittance to i)ublic depart
■ ments at home. They have to provide the whole of the transport required, either
for the removal of the troops and their baggage, itc, or for the removal of stores,
by land or by water, fhcy have to provide, by contract or otherwise, all matp-
rials required for public works, and to contract for labour when necessary • to
provide also, by contract or purchase, all other articles required for the troops or
or the or. inance, or for casual services. They have to pay, in detail, all persons
holduig stall appointments ; to pay, in detail, half-pay, military pensions, widows'
pensions and compassionate allowances, to all persons in Canada entitled to anv of
these allowances, fhcy have to pay, in detail, lodging-money, fuel-money, and all
extra and contingent allowances, and expenses of every description, under the
warrant ot the general commanding.
802. Do you uctribute the large proportion of the commissariat to the troops at
Canatia, as compared with the commissariat in Nova Scotia, to the "real extent of
extra duly required from the commissariat in Canada to that of the commissariat
in .Nova bcotia ?— To both causes; the great dispersion of the troops, and the
extra duty ot the commissariat in Canada.
8uj. Does that exist to the same extent in Nova Scotia as in Canada "-—Cer-
tainly not.
S04. Do the pensioners exist to the same extent in Nova Scotia as in Canada*—
Certainly not ; there arc pensioners in Nova Scotia, but nothinir like to the same
extent as in the Canadas.
80,5. If you look at page 46, by the Return it will appear there are 40 rank and
nle at Amherstburg ? — Y'es.
Sof) It appears by the Return, that there being 41) rank and file at Amhrrn-
burg, that there is a commissariat establishment of two dej)uty-assistant commis-
saries-general, two issuers and one labourer, at the expense of 726/. a year pay
- and allowances; can you state why there is so larue a commissariat statl' tbr .0
small a detachment ot troops?— At Amherstburg there is a large store of hulian
prcsent^_ ; there is also a store of flour and salt meat. Considerable issues arc made to
th.' rnlians, and there are a great number of pensioners located in that immediate
neij:nbourh()od.
807. Look at Penetanguishinc ; there there arc only 40 rank and file, and vou
will sec that the commissariat consists of the same, witii the dilHrence of one
issuer .-—At that station, I believe, there is a bateau establishment, formed for the
conveyance ol provisions, military stores, tScc.
SoS. What docs that consist oY?— IJoats and barges for transport, and men for
the management ol them.
8u.). State to tlic Committee what is the amount of the bateau establishment in
the dillerent Canadas; where stationed, and what tlicy have to do=— I do not
know what is at present the actual tstablisbment. On icftTring again to the letter
trom Commissary.g( neral Routli, whicii 1 have read to the Committee, it appears
thiit the bateau cstabh.siiment has been removed to Montreal, where seven bateaux
an« SIX men are sufficient for the service; at present only one officer is emiilovcd
at I'enctangnishinc.
810. In tlie Return there aiipeais to be 271; rank and (ile, artillerv, engineers
ami veterans, at NeHloundland ; and an establi^liment of an assistant commissary-
geiifrul, two deputy-assistant commissaries-general, one issuer, and one conductor -
—I would beg to refer to the remark in t!i<' \»^i vaUwv; with resjHx't to one of l.'u-
d.'puty-assislant commissaries-general, by which it appears he ceased on the rih
October l8;J;3,
81 1. If tJKMe two arc able to keep the accounts in the whole of Newfoundland
lor .>7(. rank and tile, how is it that so large a statf is kept in those parts of
Canada
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 63
Canada where detachments from only 1 o to ,50 men exist ? — The duties of the
commissariat in Canada arc materially ditierent from their duties in Newfoundland ;
their duties in the latter place are concentrated. The same descri|)tion of accounts
are neces.sary for a detachment of ."jo men as are necessary for a regiment of 800,
])rovi(io(i the regiment of Sno is at one post; but if the regiment uf 800 is
scattered over dift'ercnt parts of the country, then that would impose additional
labour u])on the commissariat, because each detacliment would require the same
description of accounts to be rendered in duplicate, and the same dcscri|)tion of
vouchers.
812. The accounts arc tabular, are they not? — A great many are in forms.
813. Would not a small number occasion less trouble in adding uj) and in
writing, which is the great laboui of the commissary ? — There would he very little
ditference in the trouble, whether a detachment consisted of '2,5 or of ,50 men.
There are 20 or more different forms for the vouchers in cash accounts ; and more
numerous vouchers are necessary in furnishing accounts for the troops, where they
are dispersed in three or four diflerent parts, than here would be if the same
number were concentrated.
814. Are all these accounts audited at Quebec or Nova Scotia? — The commis-
sary-general, who superintends the dei)artment, is responsible for all the accounts
in the Canadas ; consequently the accounts of the sub- commissaries dispersed
throughout the whole of Upper and Lower Canada are transmitted to his office,
and they are there examined and iiide u() ; and he transmits them home to the
Treasury, to be audited by tlie Connnissioners for Auditing the Public Accounts.
Si,';. ^V'hcre the troops are supplied by contract, do you mean to say there are
■20 different forms of account? — There are not only the accounts between the eon-
tractors and the commissariat, but the accounts of the ditfcrent detachments, all the
detachments furnishing differerit returns.
8i(). Do you mean that the returns are given by each detachment in a difierent
form? — No, one form will apply to all the detachments.
Si 7. Are there 20 forms from one detachment, one from each detachment, and
there may be 20 detachments from the regiment? — Speaking of rations of provi-
sions, only one form of return is necessary for each regiment or eacli detachment.
The different branches of tiie staff each render a separate return. Witli respect to
cash accounts, although there arc 20 or more forms of account, it is very likely that
one detachment may nut give occasion for the use of more than three or four forms ;
and it may, on the other side, ha[)pen that the duties relative to the detachment
may rciiuire many of the forms to be in use, looking at the (lescrij)tion of service-,
the nature of the payments, and the nature of the issues tfiat may be made. The
cash accounts are classed under different heads, under diflerent letters ; one descrip-
tion of payment under letter A, another under B, and so on. The printeil state-
ment whicli I hand to the Committee will give an idea of the various vouchers that
are re(juisite in the pecuniary transactions of the commissariat.
[The same was read, as follows.]
STATEMENT referred to in Circular, No. 84.
Dkiut Side ok the Aicount CtRUSNT.
inclusive.
EXl'LANATXON.
MARKS.
A
Extraordinaries from A. to II.
■nri.Es.
Miscellaneous Purcl;
Transjioit
i*ay of Extra StaH", Ike.
Thomas Archer,
Esq.
14 July 1835.
Supplies for Rations of Provisions and"! To include provisions, spirits, wine, forage,
Forage .... -J Sic.
1$. Fuel and Light .... To include fuel, candles, oil, cotton-wick, &c.
^Tho articles included under these two heads tm- purchased, tutored, and issued by the
Coniiuissariut ilop:irlnu'nt.J
- 'I'o includo all payments for stores, implc-
niints, ^r. of whatever description, not in.
chilled under the two preceding heads, or
under letter G, nor paid for by drafts from
the ofticers of the Drdance department,
letter I.
- To include freight, hghterage.
truckage, live.
- To include the pay of all persons not tliarge-
able upon the Ordinaries, or under letters O.
I. and!,.
irf!»ge,
0.11.
M
F. Mili
tary
64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tho.nna Archer, MARKS. TITLES.
Esq.
F. Military Allowances -
14 July 1835.
G. Special Services
H. Coi tinsencies -
I. Ordnance Department
K. Ordinaries
1,. Pav ot Commissariat Officers
M. Advances to Departments
N. Consignments of .Specie.
O. ....
E.XPLANATION.
To include lodging-money and all other
allowances, e.\cept pay and such military
allowances as may be comprised under
letters I. and K.
To include only such services as are peculiar
to particular stations, such as in
Canada : Indian and Settlers' departments.
West Indies, Sec. : Pensions of Black sol-
diers.
Expenditure for army vessels.
Subsistence of 3d West India regiment,
Sec. Sec.
To include rent, travelling expenses, postage,
hospital expenditure, and, generally, all pay-
ments chargeable upon the Extraordinaries
not included in the foregoing articles.
To include
Imprests for payments under 5/.
Drafts for payments above ,5/. ;
viz.
For pay and allowances of the department.
Pay of the Royal Artillery.
Buiidini; materials.
Barrack, and other military stores not
included in B. or C.
Labour.
Buildings erected, or repairs performed
under contract.
Military working parties.
Including
Regimental subsistence and half-yearly
ailouances.
Staff p,iv.
Half pay.
Chelsea pensions.
fJrcoiuvich pensions.
Widows' pensions.
Compassionate list.
Other retired allowances not borne upon
the Extraordinaries.
To include only commissioned officers, and
persons acting and receiving pay as such ;
storekeepers, issuers, and others employed in
the Conunissariat department, being included
under letter I". The same distinction to be
made w itli respect to the Account Branch
when paid, as at Malta, Sec. by pay list, and
not by imprest: in that case the account
current will show the amount of pay of the
Commissariat officers under letter L, thus :
Store branch -
Aeciiunt branch
- £.
To mchute ;dl advances repayable in England,
exieiil tliosi' to the Ordnance tiepartinent,
wlucli will be included under letter 1.
- To be left open for any special disbursements
(such as iiaynieiits on account of Colonial
governments. See) as may not be chargeable
to the lAtraoriiinaries.
Cnr.DiT SiDK.
Bills drawn upon the To be accompanied by separate statements
of Bi'ls ncLiolialed. and of bills drawn at j)ai
on aerount of supplies, or otherwise.
• Issued to Staff, Ordnance, and other dejiart-
nients.
\\. Proceeds ol Sale^ . - . . By the officers nf the Commissariat deparl-
ment.
Js. Ditto By the officers of the Ordnance de[.artinent.
T. Receipts
P. Proceeds of
Treasurv.
Q. Stoj)paL'es for Rations
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
&URK:<.
TITLES.
KXPLANATION.
uy stores not
V.
W.
Consignments of Specie.
Miscellaneous Receipts
Receipts for Services repayable in England, viz.
Rej^iinental Surplusses.
Effects of deceased officers and soldiers.
Fees on commissions.
Custom-house revenue.
Post-otKce ditto.
Greenwich Hospital ditto,
&c. &c.
- To include all receipts, of whatever descrip-
tion, not comprised under the preceding
heads.
[N. i?.— Any of the forea,oing heads which may be inapplicable to the service of particular
stations, may be left out altogether in the Accounts Current of the Commissariat
Officers serving on such stations; but the Receipts and Expenditure, under the
heads herein specified, should, in every case, be brought to account under the
same marks that are annexed to them in this statement.]
818. From your acquaintance with the accounts, do you consider all those are
necessary where provisions are supplied by contract, or do you not think it possible
to simplify the accounts so as to lessen the labour? — I will explain to the Com-
mittee the course of proceeding in supplying the troops with provisions under
a contract, when deliveries are made by a contractor. The issues of fresh provi-
sions, bread and meat, are usually made daily, upon cliecks given bv the commis-
sary upon the contractor; these checks are founded upon returns furnished by each
regiment or detachment, specifying the number of officers, classed in their respec-
tive ranks ; the number of non-commissioned officers and men, and women and
children. These returns, which are rendered in duplicate, are examined by the
commissary, and require particular care, on his part, to prevent over-issues or
errors, and the contractor has nothing to do but to issue upon the orders of the
commissariat. In fact, the contractor performs that part of the business which is
performed by the storekeepers or Issuers of the commissariat when there is no con-
tractor ; all the accounts and responsibility of these transactions depending still
ujjon tlie commissariat.
819. Are the vouchers sent in from the detachment to the head commissary ;
are the returns from the whole regiment sent home, or does he keep them, and
send an account made out from them ? — He sends home the accounts of the sub-
connnissaries, after they have been examined in his oun office at head-quarters,
under his immediate superintendence. These require a more minute and oarticidar
examination, since the abolition of the se[)arate department of accounts, which for-
merly examined the connnissariat accounts upon the spot.
820. At what period are the accounts audited now ? — They are audited now
more regularly than in former times ; they are passed through tlie Audit-office with
as much disrmtcli as is consistent with a careful examination.
^21. The commissaries' accounts of 183J, when were they audited? — I am no
pre()areil to say vvhetlicr the accounts of 1 S33 have been audited or not.
8:^2. Will you ascertain when the accounts of the years 1S3J: and 1833, for the
colonies vi Upper and Lower Canada, as well as Australia, were received, and
when they were audited? — In Australia there is still a separate office under
a connnissary of accounts, uhose business it is to examine all the commissariat
accounts of tiiat colony ; there is, conseciuenlly, some ilelay in tlieir cominji to
England. — [Vide Appendix.]
823. It has been stated to the Couunittee that there were iireat arrears, two or
three years ago, in tiie conmiissaries' accounts in New South Wales ; that there
were several tons of accounts which had not been audited ; w hat has been done with
those accounts? — Tiiey are not yet passed through any examination, but they are
ia the hands of an officer employed for the purpose.
8^4. Is he employed there or here? — Tliere.
825. Was there an account branch there at the time ? — There was.
Sati. Was the governor aware those arrears were going on ? — Probably not w hile
the arrears were aecnnndating.
827. Had there not been a want of annual accounts from that colony, and were
they not able to ascertain here the arrear.s, before it iiad amounted to so large an
extent? — lean hardly explain at this moment how the arrears were suffiered to
accumulate on the spot. When the arrears were first creeping on lliem.the wiiole
business of the commissariat in New South Wales was exceedingly heavy ; tliev
were employed on various descriptions of colonial matters.
0.1 i. K 82S. Tnder
Thomas Archer,
Esq.
14 July 1835,
66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Thomas Archer, 8:28. Under whose orders did they act in these diflcrent mutters? — They were
Esq. required by the governor for the time being to pert'orm certain duties.
" 8jo. General Diuling? — Yes, and his predecessors.
14 July 1835. 8;p. Are you aware thut (iencral Darling, in his evidence, states that he knew
nothing of the details anil proceedings of the connnissariat department? — I am not
aware that any such question or answer has been "ivon.
S31. Do yon consider liiat the governor had more than the general superin-
tendence of all the olheers in the colony, or that he was actually responsible for the
details of this department?— lie was not responsible for the details, he was respon-
sible for the directions he gave for the pxeeution. of certain orders.
832, M'ho was responsil)le for the details? — The parties to whom he gave those
directions.
833. Does not Mr. Laiiilcy, the head of the department, act under and receive
the orders of the Treasury here?— Ves, but he is also bound to obey the orders of
tlie governor on the spot; the goveniorof course taking care that he does not order
anything that he is not able to Justify, in case such orders may be contrary to tlie
instructions which the comniissary has received from tlie Treasury Board. "
^^ 834. Does no direct connnunication take place between Mr. Laidley and the
Treasiny iicre i — Continually.
835. Then the Treasury does exercise an independent control over Mr. Laidley?
— Certainly.
83(i. Was that the case at tlie time tlie arrcar accumulated in New South
Wales r — It has always been the case.
8j7' Do yon know whetiier the head of the commissariat makes returns of his
establishment and proceedings regularly to the governor of Australia? — It is com-
petent for the governor to call ujjon him to do so, if he tliinks (it.
83S. With wiioni does tlic expression of the propriety of the increase or decrease
of the establishment rest?— Any increase of tlie eslablishiueut would not be sanc-
tioned by the Treasury, except it had the approval of the governor.
830. T(j what extent has the governor of Nova Scotia a jurisdiction over that
department?- — The Treasury generally decline to sanction any increase of expense
proposed by the conimi^^ariiil olheer, imless it has tiie sanction of the governor or
tiie military authority (as the ca.-e may l)e) on tlie sjxn. It is quite competent for
• the governor or officer comniamling, on his own authority, to call on the commis-
sariat officer for any cNplanation that he may require upon any part of his duty,
cither as r' gards the estabiisiiment or as regards tiie conduct of the business.
840. ' ,at means has the eoinmaiuling oHieer of knowing whether the accounts
are brougl u|) or are in anear, or u lulher tiio est.iblislimcnt is giciter or less tiian
the necessity of the service requires X — It is (•oini>etenl for him to institute a minute
inquiry into the state of the departmenl. The Treasury Board have freeiuently
called upon officers commanding and governors, not only in New South Wales
but in other places, to revise the estabiisiiment and the duties of the commissariat,
with a view to making such reductions as it mii;ht i)e susceptible of bearing.
841. Do you mean by that, that if there was an older to them they would do
so ? — Yes.
842. My question is, in the ordiuaiy mode of coiuiucting the details of the colony,
whether lie is coL'ui/.ant from year to year of the slate in which the accounts of tiiat
deparlnient are?- I do not know tiiat he is expected to be cognizant as a matter
of course, but lie can on his own authority call for information on the jioint.
843. Art! any of tiie accounts sent home through that oilicer .' — Not anv.
S44. Do you mean to say that liic accounts are not transmitted through the
governor? — (,'ertainly not.
845. T'lien tiie '^ovirnoi- nas no means of aseerlainiiig whether the returns have
been sent by the commissariat officers .' — None, except by inquiry.
84(1. Is there a dire(;t correspondence between the commissariat oflker and the
Treasury ? — Yes, constant communieation.
S47. i think you have staled in your t'ormer eviiKn<-e, tliat tlieri' was a great
reduction, from .51 to nj individuals, in New South Wales; was that subsequent
to the arrcar of accounts being discovered ? — Yes, it was.
848. Seeing that the deiaehments have in New South Wales rather increased in
numiicr than decreasfd, what was the reason that eiiabied ihem to iiiaKc liiat re-
duction, when under a large I'stablishment such great arrears took place ?--Iiy the
improved mode of conducting the busiiuss, and the introduction of a system ol con-
tracting, which the colony was not formerly able to hear. The department was
also l■elie^e(l of some of tiie duties which were more iiarlicularly colonial.
S.}o. Had that iiiq"! veiuent been previously adopteil in other colonies? — The
mode
^» *
ON MILITARY ESTADLISIIMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 67
mode of doing business and the nature of the business in New South Wales were
peculiar to that colony, and the improvements to which I allude do not apply to
the service on other stations.
850. Are there other cohjuies susceptible of the same improvement which has
been introduced in New South Wales? — No.
851. In proportion as the principle and practice of contracts gain grouiul, do
you consider that the establishment might be reduced ? — I do not know whether
the establishment is capable of reduction below tlie present number; still the Trea-
sury expect that if any further reductions can be accomplished with due regard to
the efficient i)erforniance of the duties, they will be carried into effect.
8.52. To what extent has the system of contracts been introduced for supplyiu"
the convicts and the troops in New South Wales? — I believe it does not prevail ge-
nerally yet ; it has l)een only upon a limited scale of jiroviding supplies by contract.
8.53. Have the contracts been offered and not accepted, or have they not been
tried ? — They have been tried, and failed at the commenct-inent of the experiment.
854. Were those failures in 1830 and 1831'?— Yes, to the best of my recollec-
tion, there were failures about that time in supplies of provisions.
8.)5. Are you aware whether orders have been issued by the Treasury, that the
contract system should be tried on all occasions where it can be effected? — An
order to that effect has been given, and I beg to refer the Committee to the copv
of a Treasury letter addressed to Major-gen. Rourke, in December 1832, which I
have already furnished for tiie information of the Committee.
856. Are you able to state whctlier the governor advertised f — It is the duty
of the commissary to advertise.
8.57. Have you had sent liotne copies of the ailvcrtis(!inents made by him in the
colony, and have they been general, or only as to particular places? — I believe
only as to particular places and particular supi)lies.
8.58. Has the deputy commissary-general informed you whether he has tried
contracts for all the supplies wanted, or for how many ? — He has reported the
proceedings with regard to contracting for different supplies. I cannot speak from
memory what are the particular places or occasions ; but in some instances the
endeavour to obtain contracts has failed, and in others they have been succe.ssful.
S.'jj). In your evidence before, you alluded to stores of provisions that had been
prepared in consequence of some contracts in 1 830 having failed ; do you know
to what extent those stores were formed? — I do not remember the extent of them.
8()0. Have you ^ny statement in your office of the several depots in New .South
Wales? — Yes.
8tii. Ik so good as to state, when the stores were formed, what they consist of,
and whether any establishment is requisite to superintend the stores exclusive of
the duties required to coniluct the issues, supposing they are contracted for ! — As
the system of contracting for supplies cxtcndcil, the depots in the colony were
<liscontiiiiicd or diminisiied; at present the only depots of provisions are at tlie
penal settlements of Morcton Day and Norfolk Lshmd. At these stations all otiier
articles are also held in depot by the conunissariat, anil issued by that dej)artment.
The population at these jilaccs consists only of the servants of the government
and the prisoners. At Sydney the conunissariat receive into store and issue the
sur|)lus provisions from the convict ships, on their arrival from England. 'I'here is
also a store ot coal, which aniile is ricoivtil and i^siieil in detail by the commi>sariat.
862. Uo you send out stores in the way of provisions to New South Wales from
here ? — No provisions,
8(13. Has the commissariat department anything to do with tiic construction of
public buildings -—They ha»e eve rything to do \villi the construction of public
buildings ; all the materials re(|uisite have been lurnislied by the commissariat
hitherto, but very lately the Board of Ordnance have sent out some person to
coniluct this particular branch of the service.
864. State to the (Committee the ditl'erent contracts which the commissariat has
been direetcil to make in the performimce of anv woiks or labour lor the govern-
ment.' -Tiity must liave received orders on tiiise points trom the local govern-
uient ; U]) to the jiresent moment it has been the duty of the commissariat to fur-
nish the materials re(|nireil for public huiklings, anil the counnissary would receive
his tlirections for the furnishing of those works from the governor on the spot.
Sti,';. Do you consider it necessary to have a commissary constantly at any post
where there are 20 o
;u or 40 men, to serve them with provisions
t-W
lere mere
are 40 or ",o men together at any station there must be some person employed to
attend them, if they are .supplied from commissariat stores; but supposing them
Thomas Archer,
F...,.
14 July 1835,
U.I I.
to
pi
1
h '
1:1 '
i" ill
3
I
Thomas Archer,
68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
to l)e provisioned by a contractor, there might be other duties at the post reouirintr
the services ol a commissariat officer. i '""b
,4 July ,83. ^?^- '" '^'"'' manner are the troops furnished in England with supplies ?-Bv
i4juiy IPS,,. contracts now made by the Board of Ordnance. ^
8(17 By that contract the contractor delivers at a particular place, according to
the indent, the rations or supplies for a given number ? Yes.
Sl.S. To whom (ices he deliver them ?— To the (luartermastcr of the regiment
I conceive. "^ "■'
S6y. What vouciicrs does the quartermaster furnish ?— The receipt of the
quartermaster to whom the supplies are delivered.
870. Are those contracts all made by the Ordnance Board ?— Thev are.
^7'- Arc you aware that any difliculty would arise in New South Wales if
a contract could be entered into for the supply of troops as in England, from the
diminution ot a considerable number of the commis.sariat kept up 'principally for
that purpose ?— 1 urn not able to give an answer to that (juestion
^7-^ If contracts were to be introduced generally into New South Wales and
the cominissariat should in consequence be reduced in number, would not the
details ot the receipts and distriliutions, hitherto performed by the commissariat, fall
on the contractors.'— That would depend upon the conditions of the contract
m the event of contracts being made, the contractor would be bound to furnish his
accounts to the commissariat; and although the provisions might be supplied
hrough the intervention of the contractor, the commissaries would be responsible
tor the proper completion of the contracts and the delivery of the articles accord-
ing to the stipulations.
S73- Would not the contractors increase the price of their contracts in propor-
tion as they took upon themselves additional duties, in consequence of the reduction
ot the commissariat --No doubt of it ; I think it very likely that there wouhl be
an increased ciiargc on the part of the contractor. If the contractor were com-
pelled to deliver the articles at various places, of course his expenses would be
increased, and his contract would be higher.
874. Uoyou nottliink that the increased price so put on by the contractors
might equal, it not exceed, the amount saved by the reduction of the commis
sariat ?— lliat is one ot tiie points I wish to draw the attention of the Committee
o. A very small increase m the price of an article of much consumption or in
tlie price ot the ration, would perhaps greatly counterbalance any saving that
might be elle.-ted by reducing the strength of the commissariat. It should also be
Dome 111 mind, that in diminishing the means of superintending and checkin.' the
proceedings ot the contractors, the military, or the parties to receive the provis'ions
would be very much at the mercy of tiie contractors, and a laxity would .now out
ot tiiat business unless watched by the commissary.
S75. Do you mean to say that that laxity in England has grown up where the
provisions are delivered by the contractor to the person belonging to the rciment ?
— 1 be circumstances ot the two countries are so wholly dillcreiit that we" cannot
ajiplv tlie same reasoning to New South Wales as to England.
870 Do you not think all chance of laxity is completely put an end to by the
general competition where contracts are otlered ?-I think the chance of laxity in
England is vei y much diminished by the general competition ; but that does not
apj)ly to New South Wales.
S77. Are yc.ii able to tell uhether there is a corresponding increase in the price
ot provisions supplied in New South Wales in conse.juence of the reduction of
llie commissariat, in ionsc(|ueiice of the establishment of the contract system -—
1 cannot answer tiiat (juestioii.
878. Have you the means of ascertaining that ' -The increase of price miirht
aiise Irom causes quite distinct Irom a reduction ol the coi issariat.
879. Do the troops receive their provisions from the contractors themselves or
are they receded by the commissary and bv iiic: rommissarv's hand delivered '^~
n some instances they are .hiivered by "the contractor, and ia other instances
delivered by the commissary.
880. Will yon give a statement shouing rhe ,>:
alluded to, for wiiat years, and what is the progre.r
establishment requisite lor briuirimr ij., tljov,. "r--. 1
that that arrear has not been proeWed with "veiy" .„.. ,, ...._....,„,„,„„
leavy arrear. J he establishment forme.l for the current business could not under-
|ike the exauiiuatiou of it, and the officer directed to form the establishment for
the arrear, was not able to form it in the colony.
881. State
!'iint of arrears at the time
Uiat has been made, and the
■ ' — ^! ran state froiii iiiemory
Tiaterially ; it is an extremely
MMITTEE
e post requiring
supplies ? — By
;e, according to
f tile regiment,
receipt of the
icy are.
>outii Wales if
a;land, from tlie
principally for
iitli Wales, and
would not the
rnmissariat, fall
f the contract.
I to furnish his
It be su|)plied
he rcsponsihic
rticles, accord -
lets in propor-
r the reduction
here would be
tor were com-
ises would be
le contractors
the coniinis
he Committee
imption, or in
y saving that
ihould also be
checking the
he provisions,
juld grow out
up where the
lie regiment ?
It wo cannot
end to by the
(! of hixity in
that does not
c in the price
reduction of
:t system : —
price might
lemselvcs, or
ilciivered ? —
icr iiibtances
at the time
adr, and the
oiii iiieuKiry
in extremely
1 not under-
ilisliment for
S.Si. .Stale
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 69
881. State the circumstancf"i that led to that arrear, and what measures have
been taken to bring that up, and also to prevent that arrear in future ? — The
accounts which are in airear consist of the store and provision accounts of the ser-
vice in New South Wales, for the years 1821) and 1830. A separate department
for the puri>ose of examining the counts upon the spot, was first established at
Sydney in the year 1824. An able oflicer of the coniujssariat was appointed by
the Treasury Board, and he f inmenced this duty in May of that year, assisted by
two junior oflicers. 1 ne business of supplying the wants of the convicts with
provisions, clothing and materials, &c., in addition to various other dutis *, had
rendered the accn'ints of the f inmissariat so voluminous, and the duty of tlie de-
partment so intricate and troublesome, that it became absolutely necessary to frame
various regulations, with a view to simplify the details of this branch ot the ser-
vice, and to bring the plan of account into a more practicable shape. The com-
missary of accounts was called upon to assist in the proceedings that were insti-
tuted to cfiect this object, and ir.uch time was unavoidably devoted to it. His
time and attention were, moreover, much engaged in the consideration ot other
maturs of a . )lonial nature, for which the governor required his assistance, and
the examination of the commissariat accounts thus unavoidably fell into arrear.
This officer was eventually removed to a separate and distinct office, as auditor of
the colonial revenue in Nt.v South Wales; and on his being succecdeil in the
charne of the department ot accounts, in the beginning of the year 1829, his suc-
cess!, found a considerable arrear of accounts in the office. He consequently
represented to the ^;overnur the inatlequacy of the assistance which had been
assigned to him for tlie performance of his duties, and he reiiresented the inconve-
nieirce and delay that resulted from the frequent interrujitions to the regular busi-
ness of the office, by withdrawing the officer at the head of this department to
attend on boards of inciuiry, &c. In October following he again urged the want of
assistance, and stated that much remained in arrear to be done iiefore the examina-
tion of the current accounts could properly be proceeded with, and that accounts
must accumulate for want of sullleient aid. The governor authorized his employing
three temporary clerks, which the Treasury Board subsequently sanctioned,
desiring however that this additional assistaiice should be reduced as soon as it
could i)c dispensed with. This addition to the number did not give much strength
to the establishment, because the temporary clerks engaged upon the spot could not
render much useful aid in the business of the office, which retpiircd experienced
hands. The establishment, tlieretbrc, in applying their attention to the arrear,
and to tiie accounts of the current cash transactions, were obliged to leave the
current store accounts to be examined at a more convenient opportunity. 1 hese
store accounts for the years lS.'(» and 1830, thus formed an arrear, comprising
several tons in weight," and it was deemed advisable to send them home (or exami-
nation, the duplicate sets being retained upon the spot, subject to such orders as the
Treasury Board mii;ht think "it necessary to give regarding them. The Treasury
Boiiril, under the advice of the comptroller of army accounts, who strongly recom-
aundcd that they should undergo a previous examination upon the spot, autho-
rized the formation of an eslublishment at Sydney, for the especial purpose of
examining th.. duplicate sets which had been retained at Sydney. 'Hie reports
from Assistant ^ommissarv-gcneral Hayward, of the tith December 1S33, and the
-2(1 March 1834 \(klivcrm<i than in—\nk.Apj)Lmliv\, explain the steps taken with
a view to carry their Lordihips' intention into etVect, and the difficulties that have
hitherto preveiiled the accomplishment of this object. The zeal and assiduity of
Mr. Hayward have been successfully exerted in getting through a considerable
arrear of other accounts which he found in tiio office on taking charge- ot the
department of accounts in .July 1831 ; and the reports of the proceedings o that
officer show tiiat the examination of the commissariat accounts, which are still very
voiuminous, I'or the current services, is conducted by Mr. Hayward as expe-
ditiously as is consistent with the elaborate attention which they re(iuiie.
SS2." Were the accounts which accumulated in New South Wales sent Home by
the direction of the Treasury for examination here?— They were sent home by the
direction of the Ciovernor on the spot, not by the direction ot the 1 reasury.
SS 5. .\re they in point of fact in this country ?— The sets sent home are still in
this country ; the Treasury directed that the duplicate sets which were in the colony
should reniain there, and be examined on the spot.
S.M. Is there any intention that t' should be examined in this country, and not
in New South Wales?— Not at pre ^^^
Thomas Archer,
Esq.
14 July 1835.
70 INIINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Tfiomas Archer
Esq.
SS,-;. An; these
be exainincd
I Hit
nccoiints likely
state Hliat may eventually be done
14 July 1835. . ^^^\ ^^° >'"V "5*1 "''''•* tliere would be an uncertainty in the sujipiies undertaken
36 by eon ractors m New South Waie.s r-My impression is, from the correspondence
which has passed under my notice, that in the present state of the colony there must
£''"^l!!''^^''''""'y '" ""-■ l'i-"'''"'n>'»'ice of engagements made by contractors
h.S7. llKMi m caseot lailure ot the contractors by bankiuptcy,"insolvencv, want
of capita . or otherwise, what would be the situation ot the troops ?— It is difficult
to say wliat would be the Mtuation of the troops.
888. Might they not be very much distressed in consequence ?— Unquestion-
&D.y so.
8S9. Can you state in what situation the commissariat establishment in Vim
IJicmei.s Land IS ; are the supplies necessary furnishe.l by contract, or are the
whole supplied by the establishment?-! do not recollect at present whether thev
are now supplied by the establishment. ^
8;)0 Has the contrncl system been at all attempte<l in Van Diemen's Land r_
J artinly attempted. I believe the colony is nut sufficiently advanced lor the
general application of that system.
8!)i. \\ith respect to the charge for the commissariat Dt Van Uiemcn's Land,
there appears at .Mac(|uarrie Harbour to be a detachment of 53 men, and there is
an establishment ot one deputy-assistant commissary-general, and three clerks: do
you know the number of convicts there ? — I do not.
892 Do you know in wiiat state the accounts of the commissariat department
arer — I cannot state that precisely.
893. Are there any arrears ?— 1 l)elieve not.
804. You are aware that the charge for pay and allowance of the commissariat
cfepurtment is 4,S(.i /. 2 ,v. lod., and SSo/. 2 s. 8./., for that year; take the
same number ot troops, and state, in the same manner which vou have been asked to
ilowithres|)tctt<) New Soutii Wales, what is the system' observed there, and
wJietncr the accounts are well biouglit npP—The commissariat duties in Van
_l-»iemcn s Lan(l partake so much of the character of the duties of the department
in i\ew South Wales, that the remarks already submitted to the Committee re.s|)ect-
ing tlie duties of the commissariat in the latter colony, ap|)iy in a great degree to
tile fliities of the dejiartmcnt in Van Diemen's Land.
In both colonics there is much detail that is unavoidable in the business of sup-
plynig the convicts with [.rovisions, tools and necessaries, in consequence of the
various en)ploymenIs and situations of the convicts; some in gaols, others in chains
m road parties, others at the p.nal .settlements and penitentiaries and the hospitals ;
all ol Miiicii, combimd with tiie nece.vsap, dispersion of th ; iroops, greatly au-mient
the detail mid vouchers of the commissariat accounts, wiiich are nevertheless
regularly rendered to the department of accounts lor examination.
In \an Dieiiieirs Land the commissariat have also the duty of providing all
articks that are rKpiiied by the colonial government.
Alihoiigh the system of providing by contract has been introduced in Van
IJiemens Land, it camiot M ; .•• cnt be depended upon; the commissariat eon-
sef|uently are obliged to make anaiii;ements lor ensuring regular supplies, that the
troops and the convicts may not be exposed to the .seriou.s conse(|uences that would
othiTuise lesiiit in case ot failure on the part of contractors.
liie tollowing extract of a re|)ort from the commissariat olHcer in charge, tiated
Hobait Toun, 8 February 18.54, will sliow that such precaulioimi v mearures arc
necessary, and that depots of ^irovisioiis caiinol be safely dispen.sed witli :
" I have on lormer occasions informed their Lordshi|)s tiiat there are lew eon-
traclois in this er.lony of sufficient means or credit to enable them to fulfil their
engagements; and unless 1 occasionally assisted them uith advances before tiieir
monthly accounts were rendered, or became due, 1 should not be able to procure
the iiece-sary supplies to cany on the service. It will, therelore, appear evitlent to
their Lordships liuil tlure exists a necessity to secure at harvest time, uheii at the
owest price, a siiliieieii! sujiply of wheat to'meet the ilemand, or 1 should not only
lie at the mercy of the bakers, but in all probability oftentimes in want of iiread."
in addition to the colonial stores and the coiiuet stores, which the commissariat
lia\f under their cli^nge. tia y iceeive into store and i>sue (or by pMi)lie sale dispose
ot SUCH as aie lujt recpiiieil lor the troops) the suriilus pVovisions landed from the
convict ships.
In this colony liieie are 11 stations, at such distance from liead-(piaiters, and
Irom each other, as to ret)uire at each station the presence of one or more iiidi-
'iduals ( t tiic coniniissariat.
At
t
i
4
oiniiiissanat
lO
Miles
N.
22
—
N.K,
22
—
N.W.
4,5
—
N.W.
rto
—
N.
74
N
.\.E.
1(14
N.
124
N,,
ON AJILITAIIV ESTADLISIIMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 71
At Ilolmit Town, the liead-quaitcrs.tlic general arrangements are formed ; the
proceedings at the out-stations arc superintended during their progress, and tlie
accounts of the expenditure! in cash, provisions and stores, for the whole of the
services, military, colonial and convict, are controlled, checked and reiulered, with
all r{(|uisitc vouchers in su|)port thereof, to the department of accounts, for exami-
nation upon the spot, previously to their being Irunsjinilled to the ComuiissionefS
for Auditing the Public Accounts in England, lor liiml audit.
Richmond is a station 10 miles n.k. of Hoburt Town.
Biighton ...
Torell
New Norfolk
Bothwell
Oatlands - - -
Ross - - - ..
(ieorgo Town
Launceston - - - 124 — n,, is a penal settlement.
And Port Arthur, on Tasman's Peninsula, is also a penal settlement, where
a considerable number of convicts are confined.
In the estimate of the probable expenditure of the commissariat, for the year
'835-<>, amounting to 1 -,o,(i()o/., the following items are included ; viz.
Supplies of provisions - - £. 5y,35<J
Fuel and light - - - - 3.775
Transport i.ooo
Ordinaries 20,954
Convict establishment - - 4.').370
The arrival of convicts from England, and the number to be lationed l)y govern-
ment, is so very uncertain, that all previous cal'-'ulalion is dilVicult, and liable to be
defeated; an addition of from 5,000/. to 1 0,000 /. might therefore be necessary,
nder the head of " Supplies."
At the period when this estimate was framed, a conunittcc was engaged in
llobarl Town in investigating all the circumstances connected witii the scales of
diet re(iuired to be issued to convicts on the roads, in hospitals, in the chain gangs,
and in the house of correction ; and Irom the inquiries then made, there would
probably result a considerable decrease in the issues of meat and flour.
From this brief exposition of the nature of the duties of the connnissariat in
Van Dicmen's Land, it will readily he admitted that the various details ari.>ing out
of the execution of these services cannot be performcil without a considerable
Citablishment.
In the year 1832, the connnissariat department in Van' Diemen's Land con-
sisted of, 1 Assistant Connnissary-geiicral in charge.
5 Deputy Assistants.
13 (Merks.
6 Storekeepers.
14 Inferior persons.
Making a Total of 39 Persons.
This establishment may perhaps appear at tirst sight to be rather large ; but it is
right to remark, that a great proportion consists of subordinate persons, and that
tlie individuals of this tleseription, who are unavoidably employed, alford but very
little eilicient assistance.
The lieutenant-governor, in a connnunication addressed to the Treasury Board,
dated the 3d September 1 832, expresscil \n> opinion, " that the strength at present
of the connnissariat establishment is inadeejuale to the performance of the ilutics
tliat are recpiired, without extreme ditViculty and embarrassment."
The Treasury Board have always been desirous of keeping down the establish-
ment to the lowest scale consistent with tiie proper pertorniance of the public
service. In the last year, 1S34, the establishment of the connnissariat consisted of
34 per.sons, being a reduction of five from the number above stated ; and in March
of the preseiil year the lieutenant-governor was directed, in pursuance of a Minute
of the Hoard of Treasurv* to institute a coniplefi; revision of the commissariat
department, and to report to their Lordships, for their consideration, the numbers
and ranks of the oOicers, clerks, &c. that he may propose to be retained in that
brancli of the service.
Thomat Archer,
Eiq.
14 July 1835.
O.t I.
K4
72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Veneris, 17* die Julii, 183a.
ROBERT GORDON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR.
17 July 1835
Deputy AssisiRiit Commissary-General IVilliainJ. Greig, Esq., called in;
und Exuiniiicd.
WiUiam J. Qrcig, ^i)/)- YOU have served in tlie commissariat in Canada ?— ^'es.
Eiq. 89(1 . For many years? — For 21 years.
8!)7. In different grades :— I have been 21 years in my present grade.
8t)8. What is your present grade f— Deputy-assistant commissary-general.
8p(). When did you leave f 'un.ida " -In October 1833.
900. Have you ever had anything to do witli the commissariat in Nova Scotia?
— I liave not.
901. We find upon reference to the accounts, that the expense of the commis-
sariat in Nova .Scotia is one-third oidy ofthe expense of tlie commissariat in Canada,
with nearly the same number of troops ; can you give us any explanation of the
reason of the fzmit expense of the coumiissariat in Canada compared with that of
Nova Scotia.^— The force of Nova Scotia is concentrated ; there arc not above three
or four stations; in Canada there are 11 or testations; it is a very extensive
command.
002. Do you consider that that circumstance alone, of a greater number of
stations, is sufficient to account for the disproportionate expense of tlie commis-
sariat in those two colonies ; have you any other leasons to give?— No; I am not
aware that any otlicr reason is assigned.
903. Have the commissaries any ^leculiar duties to discharge in Canada that
they have not in other colonies?— '1 hat I cannot say, not having served in other
colonies.
904. What other duties have they in Canada?— In the ordnance department :
when I was stationed at Quebec, for all building materials that were reipiired for
public works, recpiisitions were made by the engineers, and then by the ordnance,
upon the commissariat, for those materials ; they were then supplied by the connnis-
sariat to the engineer officer ; those materials were never .seen by the ordnance,
but they certified to the receipt of them ; in fact it was a mere paper transaction
as far as the ordnance were concerned. At Kingston, in the same way, we acKer-
tised for the carrying, on the public works, invited competition, entered into
contracts, supplied thu ordnance with money, paid their drafts, and they were per-
mitted to draw for any smii from ;,/. and upwards. Now it would have been no
more trouble to the conimissariat officer at Kingston to have paid the individual
that supplied the article, instead of going to the ordnance officer and getting a
draft, which was brought to me as the officer paying the iiuuiey ; it "ave me addi-
tional work, as I had to make an abstract of those drafts. The duty appears to me
twice (lone, and it i> my opinion there is ,1 v;i.st deal more writing in pulilic otiices
than is necessary.
90.1. Do you pay by drafts 011 the bank, or keep money in hand -—The ehaii^e
had just tiiken place bi'f.ne I left. "
UdO. ^^■llen you were present the money was paid by you as treasun r ? -I had
the cu^tody of the iiioney : >iu(e then I have understood that the payments were
made by the .Montival bank in Canada, and I believe they have branches in ditier-
ent parts of the proviiiie.
907. In the payments you made on acciiunt ofthe ordnance department, had
you any cheek on the acTuracy or the amount of the account, or merely the pay-
ment of tile money '.- L'i>onthe ordiianee storekeeper's signature, countersigned bv
the senior rtsjiective otiieers of tlie ordnanee ; their signature was the authority.
I could not say what it w,is for, or whether it was correct.
908. You had nothing to do to .sanction the charge ?— No.
909. ilow did you pay the pensioners of the artillery ?— They are not paid by
us, tliey are p.iiil by the onliiaiice. Ihe Chelsea peii>ioiicrs, Kiliuaiiihain liaf '
retired aiio\\aii(e, and
under the lie.id of ordinaries of the
Melsea peiiMoncrs, Kiliuaiiihain iialt-pav
widows' pensions, and staff pay of the army, are charges
naries of the army; tliev arc paid bv the commissariat, and
are a great increase of duty.
i»i().
Ar
MITTEE
AIR.
., called in ;
;rade.
-general.
in Nova Scotia?
of the commis-
iriat in Canada,
lanation of the
red with that of
not above tliree
» very extensive
iter number of
jf tlie conimis-
-No; I am not
in Canada that
served in other
L'e department :
-•re re(|uiri(l for
y the ordnance,
by the comniis-
' the ordnance,
ij)er transaction
way, we adxer-
, entered into
they were per-
1 have been no
the individual
■ and getting a
gave me addi-
y appeals to me
in pul)iic othces
-The ciiange
isurcr"— I had
payments uere
nches in (iitier-
■partment, had
nerel)' the pay-
nntersigned bv
the authority.
re not paid bj-
nham halt- pay
ly, are charges
nrmssariat, and
<(ii' Are
i
ON MILITARY ESTAULISHMENTS IN TOE COLONIES. 73
[)\u. Are they paid half-yearly or quarterly ?— Regularly quarterly.
!)i I. Are they paid at head quarters -—No, at several distinct stations.
<M2. Are there any collectors or resident individuals in the civil government
there, through whom those payments could be made ?— Not that I am aware of.
913. Is there any collector of taxes in those districts?— I dare say there are : in
all the counties in Upj)er Canada there are county treasurers ; those are civil
appointments made by the governor of the province.
1)1 4- Has any attempt been made to pay those pensioners through the county
treasurer, the .same as pensions and militia payments in England are made through
the receiver of taxes, excise or customs?— In the Bathurst or Rideau Canal dTs-
trict, there are several hundred pensioners residing, and they have two or three
agents at Perth.
()i,-;. Agents of their own -—Yes, with whom they deposit their vouchers
quarterly, acquitted and complete in every particular, and those are sent to the
commissariat officer at Bytown ; it is to save those poor people the trouble of going
tH) or 70 miles to obtain j)ayment, and tlie draft for the amount is transmitted to
those agents.
(J If). Are those agents sanctioned by the government in any way?— The com-
missary-general is considered the person to authorize them.
!»17. Is there any per centagc paid to that agent by the parties receiving the
money ?— J do not know.
918. Are they paid anything by the commissary-general?— No; they are nearly
all shopkeepers, and the pensioners deal with them.
Oil). Are we to understand that the pensioners of each district send their several
receipts generally through the agent, who transmits them to head-quarters, and do
not generally apply themselves -—In (Quebec they generally apply individually,
t.iey generally reside in the city ; but not so in the out-stations, where it would be
Particularly at that particular sta-
I have been there on two or three
a serious expense to them
<I20. Wiiat you state is the general course?
tion, Bytown ; an officer is sent there annually
occasions to identify those pensioners.
1)21. What security or check is there against fraud on the part of those pen-
sioners ; a man may be dead, and the voucher transferred to another?— I have been
twice there to identify the pensioners, and to examine the men ; to question them
and look to their instructions, and see that the description of them is right, and
that the height and complexion corresponds; most of those men I have seen so often
I know them.
<)2'J. How ofti 11 is this inspection ?— Once a year : very many of those men merely
make a cross ; the consequence is that fraud could be easily perpetrated.
923. Might not, in that case, the agent of the public, the collector or treasurer
of the county, be made use of for identifying the individuals annually ; thus saving
that trouble and expense to the public ?- > es, if you can get them to do il.
924. You were going on to state the other duties of the commissariat ?— The
distribution of presents to the Indians.
925. Have you yourself attended at any of those distributions ?— Yes, I have.
()2(i. At what place did you attend that distribution ?— When I was stationed at
roronto, late ^'ork, in L^pper Canada, I attended to issue presents to the Six-nation
Indians.
927. At what place ?— .At Blandford, on the Grand River.
928. What is the nearest station to that? — Toronto.
929. At what distance?— From Toronto to the head of the lake, it is nearly
90 miles.
930. How many Indians attended ?— I should say from 1,200 to 1,400 probably ;
tlieie were 20 different tribes.
931. At what months in the year?— The month of October.
932. One a year ?— This was annually.
[)S3- •» the distribution always made at the same place?— I believe so.
!)J4. What were the articles distributed ?~ A great variety ; I dare say I must
have had from 70 to So bales, blankets, cloth, aud silver trinkets.
93.'i. Any hardware? — Yes.
;)3('. Are you sending gnidualiy now more useful things?— There were cooking
utensils, ammunition, fire-arms, shot and hall.
()37. Did you take all those things up with you, or is there any depOt kept there ?
!• — i entered
H'illiam J, Greig,
Esq.
17 July 1835.
74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE UEFUIIE SELECT COMMITIEE
milhm J. Gmg, —I intcicd into an «};rcenu'nt for a stcain-l)ont, and they were transferred to the
E«q- ' lictui of the hike to Hamilton, and then tnmsferrcd hy hmd.
.)3« l>id you distribute the whole of them r -Yes, there "ere some few rem-
J7 July 1835. „n„ts rcniaininf,', that were <li.stribated hy the superintendent to the most deserving
Indians. , . . , ,., .0
5(|. I'ndcr what orders did you aet, and with whom did you communicate?—
Colonel (iivens was the superintendent of the Indian department; he accom-
panied me. ... .1 -^i I I
()4i). Wliat steps were taken on your arrival ?- lie accompanied me, with a clerk
of "the Indian department. ,, . iir
.»4i- Vou had a clerk with you ?— I had an issuer; there was a Major >> vnnett,
and a sulmllern ; lie acted as the commandiiiij; oiVicer of the expedition. _ Ihcre is
always a military officer accompanies the party, to see that tlie thing is properly
done. .... , - II- 1 .^ • .
()4i. What is the duty of the chief of tlie Indian department :"— 1 1 !•>! duty is to
hear if the Indians have anything to state ; the Indians held a council, and he
attended. , , , . . ,• ^ •■ .• _
.)4j. On your arrival there, what measures are taken, and how is the distnhiition
regulated ?— The allowance is stated on the estimate, whicli the Indian depart-
ment have. ,
044. You mean a scheme of distribution .— \ es.
1)4.-,. Who regulates the quantity to he delivered to each nation — 1 he Indian
department, I sii|)pose. ,,•■■• i- »„
n4ti. Then your duty in the commissariat is merely a distribution, according to
the scheme put into your hands - -The issuer and clerk of the department open
the bales, ami measure out the exact portions to each tiihe.
1)47. According to the scheme put into their hands?- -Yes.
U48. Do you furnish a scheme to tlie commissariat ?— Xo, I had very little to do
with it. . . . , •
<)4n. I low do yon report to your chief I .\ rc(iuisition is sent to the commis-
sariat department, the amount of it is authenticated by the superintendent ol the
Indian department ; he gives a receipt, and I enter it in my account as a linal
issue. ..... ,
.j',0. You are a mere issuer upon that indent r--\ es, exactly.
051. And that dntv done, you return to the station " —Yes.
or-'- What is there to prevent the olHcerof the Indian department .seeing tliem
distril)iited?- I think the duty could be ihme by the commissariat without the
Indian department ; I tliiuk that the Indian department is very useless, many of
them. I conceive, if you have interpreters where the issues of presents are made,
I mean men employed on a salary, instead of the overwlieliiiiiig Indian department,
it would be (piite .Mithcient.
1)13. There are interpreters there "--Yes. 1 <• i-
0-,4. Do any observations occur to you, as to a better and cheaper mode ot dis-
tribution than that which is now used "--I have never considered the subject,
1 never having been on this service but. once. 1 do not tliini, 1 am competent to
•■■ive an opinimi, but I do think that the duties might he performed hy the commis-
"aviat, by having an interpreter; these interpreters .speak the Indian languages,
which are numerous; there is no tonnnissariat ollicer that could make himselt
understood to those Indians.
()-,•;. Do noneoftho.se nations, so long in coumiunication witii the l.nglisli,
speak the Knglish language ?— Yes, a great many of them.
(|-,(i. Have they any interpreters to answer that purpose." - I have met with very
many Indians liia't speak Knglish, and I should think in that particular district that
thev all speak Knglish, or most of them.
."(.-,7. Are there any Knglish .schools established among them ?•— Yes, 1 under-
stand there are. 1 1 1 c
if-,S. I'lidcr wlu(se department would they be ; would tiiey be under the head ot
the Indian department • Yes, I sluaild tiiink they are.
O'ii). How many days did you stay there i^— Altogether, we were absent about
11 (lays.
Olio. Did they come down on the day you arrived, and go away when you re-
ined :- -Tlie issues were completed, I '■' i:i-ve. in three da)s.
Ot'i. I'Vom what distance did they c, ,ie down to Blandlord ?— That I cannot
teli, thev were distributed all over the cuiuitry ; they all came down in their carts
and
me, with ii clerk
very little to do
vith the English,
•»*
ON MILITARY ESTAIILISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. ;
and wntrgons, in the Indian lostunie ; but they are luriners generuily, civiliztd ivn
Indian.s. ''""
ijhi. Is there any iicinianent dcjirtt, or individual resident, at Ulandford .-— No
depot, but I believe a MijH'iintendt-nt resides there.
y(i;3. Is tl'ui tht oi.'y station in I'pper Canada where a distribution takeii place -
— No, tliT is Amh rstbur^.
()i)4. ("hero ;ir'; ur to be two deputy-assistant coniniiHsaries-f^eneral, one issuer
and one i^ l.ourei', at an expense of nearly Cm, I. ; can you state the duties they
have to rf' .1 . Heeing there are otdy 4() rank and file of all classes stationed
there r— ih \ . the supply of this detachuieut ; and there are others, the Indian
uepartnientH, ^^ . .cc.
«)(i,5. Have mm ever been there?— No; but the commissariat have all the pay-
ments to 'III ;ind the Indian presents to issue there.
«|fi(i. I', tliesameuay asat lilandford?^Yes, but it is much more an Indian
country ; those Indians (rei|ueiitly lune provisions issued to them. Indians come in
very freepiently in distress, and I believe there is an authority to permit the com-
raandmg oHicer to issue provisions under his signature, on the representation of the
Indian department.
• 167- In what way is it brought to account .=— It is charged in the commissariat
account. I kno\v that provisions have been issued by myself to Indians at York.
<»t'S. Do you recollect what month in the year the distribution takes place at
Amher.stburg ? — No.
(((ii). Have you any idea of whether one-fourth or one-half of the presents for
the whole of Canada were distributed at Dlnndibrd ---I cannot say.
1)70. For the supply of .^o men, a separate establishment, a commissariat, would
be rerpiired it there »vas no distribution of those presents'— Yes, of course; if they
are supplied by a connnissariat, ,--,0 or 100 men give yon ns much trouble, and the
same torms of account are gone through, as a regiment.
<)7i. Is there any other Iiulian station :■— The bay of Quente, near Kingston;
they are supplied from Kingston.
972. Is there any station at the spot, or does some individual go out as you did
tiom lUandford "- — \es, in the same way.
y7,j. In what month? — I do not know.
()74. In what manner do you supply the station at Penetanguishine ?— I was
not there ; when we gave up Drummond Island we removed to Penetanguishine,
and that is our naval lieail-quarters on Lake Huron.
()7.'-,. Ikit at this time are there any other dependencies upon it? — No, it is
a dependency of it.self; it gets its supply from York.
976. Do they not always contract to supply rations deliverable to the troops,
or are tliey contracted for and delivered to you who issue them.?— While I was at
\'ork, I contracted with an individual near I'enetanguishine ; he supplied the navy
and the troops stationed there.
()77. Did he deliver so many rations on the indent of the commanding officer,
and deliver them to the men, or deliver them to you tu issue I — The fresh meat
was supplied by the contractor under his contract.
<)7.S. Vou first made a contract ; is the contractor bound to deliver tin; rations
according to the indent of the comniaiuling ofHeer connuaiuling the district, or
does the contractor deliver the rations to the commissariat, and the commissariat
re-issue them to the troops? — They go through the connnissariat : a return is made
signed i)y the commanding olfieer, and brought to the connnissariat office ; if it is
correct, the commissariat takes an aciiuit^Mv: of the ofHeer entitled to receive
them, and upon that he issues his check upon the contractor.
1170. The provisions do not actually come into your hands (—No, not the fresh
|irovisions.
<)S(). Cenerally .speaking', they are i.ssued under your sanction ; your sanction
being necessary for the agent at the store?— Yes.
(iSi. Do you advertise publicly in the papers for contracts?— Yes, on all
occasions.
!)S2. Who receives and opens the tenders, and decides?— The tenders are
received and opened in the presence of the commissariat ofiicer, and the ofheer
coi-.nnanding at the station.
983.^ In iulvertising for the tenders, you specify about the average number you
e.vpect ? — Yes, more or less. .Vnother thing I beg to state ; after the receipt of
those tenders, the commissariat officer decides whic-li tender is to be accepted, but
u.ll. Li there
Ham J. Ortig,
Etq.
'7 July 183.5.
76 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
UWam J. Grcig, there is a Schedule made of those tenders in the presence of the commandin.
Esq.
J 7 July 1835.
Mr.
II in 1 11 Ci'iapiiiaii,
officer, and he certifies, and the commissariut officer, that those tenders were opened
in their presence. . ^ , . , , r 1
984. Supposing a complaint is made of the badness of the article by any ot the
men, or by any persojjs connected with the station, to whom is the complaint
made?— To the commissariat officer; it is made to the commanding officer in the
Hrst instance, and he represents it to the commissariat.
08',. Is it your duty to inspect it, and make a report? — Yes, it depends upon
the' way in which the contract is drawn up ; I have seen contracts drawn up in
which the commissariat officer was the sole judge, and there was no appeal to any
other judge, which made those contractors more vigilant ; but there ouglit to be
no complaint from the troops. The contractor's stores happened to be, when I was
stationed at iNiagara, very near my residence, and I used to attend in the morning ;
for it is possible that an understanding between the contractors and the quarter-
masters or sergeants might exist, to the detriment of the soldier ; they may say, we
require such and such for our own mess, and the refuse or inferior article might be
given to the soldier : as the soldier has nothing but his ration to depend upon, he
ought to get it good. , , , ,
((86. You have mentioned that you have attended at the contractor s stores ;
wherever there is a contract, has the contractor a store ?— Yes, at his own expense,
unless the commissariat had 11 store that is no use to the public service ; he is
allowed then 'o make use of it. .
(187. Did you heiir of any difficulty in any part of Canada 111 receiving tenders,
when due notice was given ? — No. ,11-
()88. Have you ever known contractors fail in their engagements .-—1 believe
they have occasionally.
{)8(). Do vou demand security ?— Yes.
t)0O. Eventually the iniblic do not suffer?— No. I have on two or three occa-
sions at Niagara, when the troops have actually taken the meat, insisted upon the
meat being returned, as I did not think it of a good quality ; and I sent to tlie
market and purchased meat, and deducted the amount from the contractor s
account at the end of the month. _ , , , ;■ 1
0(»i. In all cases do the troops receive their rations direct from the liands ot the
coiitractor, or in any ca.ses do they receive their provisions from the com-
missariat's stores l-*— Wlicrever I have served, the provisions have been issued by
the contractor, upon orders from the commissariat officer.
0q2. Would there be any ditVicuity, in case of the absence of the commissariat
upon anv station in Canada, in the troops obtaining supplies by their own regi-
mental contracts?— I do not sec that there would be any difficulty in it, but there
are regular accounts kept.
(103. Is there any .station at Canada in which, if tiiere was no commissariat, the
troops in passing through the country might be exposed to inconvenience for the
wi«.\-t of a supply?— If there is a previous notice of a few days, the commanding
officer makes iiis arrangements.
ni)4. In time of peace, no troops do pass from one district to another xMtiuiut
previous notice : — It is always announced when troops are moving; the changes
are periodical.
(M)> What does a .soldier receive for his ration in Canada .-' -.\ pound ot
bread and a pound <if beef every day.
906. What docs he pay for it? — Five pence.
(i;)7. Does it vary according to the price ? -No. it is always the same.
(((iS. Is it a pound of meat exclusive of bone ? — No.
Mr. Ilciiry Chapman, called in ; and Examined.
()0(). W11.\T is your profession ?— I am of no profession.
"1000. Where have vou resided?— In Canada nearly IJ years.
1(11)1. .\s a land proprietor ?— No ; in the early part of my career I w.is
a merchant, but latterly 1 was the editor and jiroprietor of a daily paper at
Montreal, which I have' sold: during tiie early part of my residence 1 "a:, .a
Quebec. . .
)00-2. Can you give the Committee any jnlormation as to the conimissanat
depa.tmeiit -—I have no kiiowlcd'.;(.' of the commis.sariat dei artmcnt especially,
but I believe, that the circumstances of Canada would render the commis.-ariat
(J eillier
•m^
IMITTEE
he conimaiiding
lers were opened
ila y -A ;h)Uiu1 of
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. "7
either wholly unnecessary, or else a very small one necessary : from the resources jj '^l'/; „^
of Canada, and the excellent supply of the markets, there is very little need ot __
a commissariat establishment, as far as I understand. 17 Ju'y 1835-
1003. Have you ever been in Nova Scotia? — No, never ; I have been in all
parts of Canada.
1004. Are you aware that there are many duties thrown upon the commissariat
in Canada, besides that of superintending the feeding of the troops r— I believe
a c insiderable quantity of the paying of the troops rests with them.
1005. Are you not aware that they take an active part in the distribution of
presents to the Indians? — Yes, I am.
1 006. Can you give us any information as to the distribution of those presents,
and how far the duties now performed by the commissariat may be performed by
the Indian department, or the duties of the Indian department performed by the
coniinis.sariat ?— I should think that the commissariat would be quite competent to
distribute the presents without any Indian department, which is an expensive
machine.
1007. Are you aware of the duties performed by the Indian departments —
Nothing, I lielieve, but distributing the presents ; I see the officers of the Indian
department about tlie town all the year, except during a short time, when they
make journies to the Indian settlements to distribute the presents.
1008. You do not think the double department, the Indian and the commis-
sariat, is necessary to distribute the presents ? — I tliink not.
100(). Has the Indian department nothing to do with keeping up communica-
tions and receiving remonstrances or complaints from the Indians? — I am not
aware of any ; some complaints have been made by the Indians, but those I recol-
lect have been made to the House of .Vssembly of Lower Canada.
1010. Are you aware that the commissariat supplies food to the Indians, if
they are reduced to a state of want?— I believe they do in some cases, but they
are rare.
101 1. Are you aware of all the duties that arc performed by the commissariat
in Canada ?— No, 1 urn not ; I would state I know but little of the duties of the
commissariat.
101 _'. If you do not keep up the Indian department, you must keep up the
comniissiiriat?— Yes, if it is the opinion of the government that the system of
Indian presents should be kept up.
1013. Do you know anything about the presents?— I have seen them dis-
tributed.
1014. What are the sort of presents ?— They give them blankets, guns, gun-
tlints, pots and pans, and various other useful things.
1015. Any ammunition ?- Yes.
101(3. Implements of husbandry ?— No, generally what relates to hunting:
tliere is'veiy little agriculture jxcept at one or two small settlcwents ; there is a
settlement at Lorette, which is a small station, a remnant of the Huron nation ;
there is also a settlement at Saint Leges, through the centre of which runs the
line that divides tlie United States from the Canadas ; it is in 4,5*.
1017. You have been present at the distribution of tlu' presents? — Yes.
ioj8. Where:— .\t I'ort Leve, near Quebec.
1010. You have never gone to Amherstbuig?— No; tliat is the most important
distribution. ,,••,• e
1020. Uho were the persons that took the principal part m the distribution ot
those presents ; wab it the commissariut or the Indian department ? — I think the
Quebec distribution is managed by the commissariat department, but the officers
are dressed so nearly alike, it is dilTicult to distinguish them.
1021. Are these presents kept by the Indians, or bartered away ?— They are
bartered for drink ; it is a notorious fact, that when the presents are distributed,
the night following is a night of drunkenness and maddening debauchery -, and
tiie impression is now that it would be cheaper to give the Indians ilriiik at once,
as they are sure to get it al'tei .vards.
>u22. When did vou leave CMniida - — On Chrismas-eve. The government
r me : thev cannot
can
have no more contr(;l over the Indians than
pr(
the Indians buying rum; persons will always
!)ring it to them, inid my notion is
that a very small portion of the Indian presents find their way into the counti'
uij ). Do yuu know whether the olficers of the Indian department
laigu
any
Mr.
Henry Chapman,
17 July 1835.
Mr. Win. Bnian,
If
78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COM.MITTEE
<iny other duties than those connected with the Indian presents ? — No, I am not
aware of any others.
1024. Are you aware tliat out of the whole sum of 20,000/., that nearly one-
fourth of it is paid to the Indian department r — Yes, I have understood so,
4,700/.
1025. Do you think that necessary r — No, quite unnecessary ; from the small
number of Indians in Canada, I should say the necessity did not exist.
i02(i. Do the officers of tlie Indian department perform any other duties ? —
I believe tlicy perform no duties except those connected with the Indians : if the
duty of the Indian department I)e contincd, or nearly confined, to the distribution
of presents, tlic duty is and can I)e actually performed in a very few days, so that
the whole of tlie remaining part of the year the department is idle.
Mr. IVilliavi Bryan, called in ; and Examined.
1027. YOU have come from Australia lately r~I came from Sydney the 17th
of December.
1028. Had you been there long? — In Sydney only four months.
1029. -^^ *'"^ colony ?- In Van Dicmen's Land 10 years.
1030. You were a settler there: — Yes.
1031. Can you give \is any information as to the commissariat at Van Dicmen's
Land and Australia ? — If 1 was asked any i);irticular questions, probably I might ;
but generally I have not been in any way connected with tlie military service.
1032. Would there be any dilViculty in Australia and Van Dicmen's Land in
supplying the troops by contracts, witJi what they arc supplied now by tlie com-
missariat department? — They are supplied by contracts; there is a regular ad-
vertisement.
1033. They are supplied by contracts made with the commissariat? — Yes.
1034. Tiicy are supplied by the connnissariat from their own store ? — No; there
arc advertisements given out that troops stationed .so and so would require to be
rationed, and then contractors propose to ration them with meat and Hour : the
tea, tobacco, sugar and spirits, are supplied iirm the commissariat store. I was
contractor for meat for one year.
103.';. There is never any difficulty in getting tenders? — No, quite the con-
trary ; there is great couqictitidu.
1036. The meat and !)read is supplied at once to the ofKcer at the station, or
the commissariat ?— Yes ; I speak of the out-.stations.
1037. W ho makes the bread - — Tlie soldiers make the bread,
1038. Do you believe that the system of contracts to be universally adopted? —
1 speak of Van Dicmen's Land, it is positively so there; and I am convinced that
at Sydney it could be a])plicil.
103(). You are of opinion it might be so there, if it is not so? — Yes.
1040. Is there capability in New South Wales to supply those things by con-
tracts?— I conceive tiiere are i- erials to be had in New South Wales to supply
them with every article they t e(iuiri'; and there is capital and mercantile specu-
lation, and persons dispersed a. over the country to supply the articles. I would
state that ixreal los> has lieen sustained from not keeping the stores in Van Die-
men's Land filled N\ith grain ; a scarcity an/se at the latter end of the year, and His
Majesty was paying iS a. a biislul for hi- wheat.
1041. That must be great neglect on the part of the commissary ? — No doubt ;
and a great act of ignorance on the part of the government putting forward adver-
tisements later in tlie year than tluy ought to do. aiiout tiie spring of the year
1<S; ;,statir- 'hat there was abundance of wheat in the colonies, when if merchants
or country gentlemen had bveii consulted, the (oiitiary would have been proved to
have been the case : the injury to the public at large wa^ immense, and in all pro-
babiiity v. ill be one of the causes of liigii prices tor grain this year T'hc cartage of
conniii.s.sariat stores to out-stations, iS;e. must form a very considerable item of colo-
nial expenditure; this might, in part, be lessened by (loiiig everything by ti-nder,
the ai tides to be delivered where rccpiiicd Ionise.
Mr.
riiiioui.
II. (.
H'4,
Mr. George fairjbxtl, called in ; and J'',xanjined.
.\ill". you lately come from Australia? I kit it nine month.s ago.
Can ymi give tlie Connnillee any inforniiition as to tlte commissariat esta-
ijiishnien'
I.
MITTEE
No, I am not
at nearly one-
udeistood so,
cm the small
t.
lier duties ? —
idi.ins : if the
ic distribution
days, so tliat
Iney the 1 7th
/ail Dicmeii's
ibly I might ;
r service,
len's Land in
by tlio com-
i rcguhir ad-
— ^'cs.
:— No; there
require to be
d Hour : tlie
store. I was
iiite the con-
10 station, or
y adopted '! —
unviuced that
s.
lings by con-
ik's to supply
caiitiie spccu-
les. 1 would
in Van Die-
year, ami His
— No (hmbt ;
irward adver-
ot' the year
I il'inerchants
I'l'ii proved to
lid ill ail pro-
'hc cartage of
item ol'c'olo-
ig liy ti'iuier,
i.s ago.
iiissariat esta-
iiii-hnien'
[¥k
•,i(
a
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 79
blishnient at Australia or Van Diemcn's Land? — No, not much; I know that
everything is done by tender now.
1044. Everything is done by contract? — Yes, and public tender.
1045. How long has it been so ? — Four or five years.
1046. The troops are not fed from the commissariat depots, but are fed from
the contractors' depots ? — I am not sure that I can answer that question positively :
they are fed both ways ; the out-stations are principally fed from the contractors'
depots, but in Moreto;i Bay and Norfolk Island they are fed from the commissariat ;
these provisions, however, with the exception of some turned into store from con-
vict transports, &.C., are purchased by the commissariat by public tender. There
are at present no means of sending stores to those places but by the government
vessels, or in cases of emergency, by vessels hired for the purpose.
1047. The contracts are not universal ? — I flincy not.
1048. Supposing they were to contract at Sydney or other places, could not the
contractor send stores in the aame way that the government could ? — It is veiy
possible, but the government boats always take them.
1049. Do you believe, at all the other stations, the troops are fed from the con-
ti'fictors' stores? — I believe so.
1050. Is there any difficulty in finding persons who will contract to supply the
troops with provisions ? — No, none at all ; there is great competition for it.
1 0,-, 1 . Do you suppose that the colony is capable of supplying provisions to
almost any amount for the troops ? — Beef, certainly, to any amount.
10,) 2. Bread? — Yes, in common years, but occasionally there is a scarcity, and
then it will come high ; this is not a very frequent occurrence.
10.53. You are aware of the number of convicts in South Wales? — I ain not
aware how many are fed by government.
lo.u- AH those, except those that are liberated, are led by government ?— All
assigned servants are fed by their masters ; emancipists, ticket-of-leave men, are fed
by themselves ; the convicts retained in government employ, the disabled, and
men under punishment, are fed by government, and 1 am aware that they amount
to a considerable number.
I o,5j. Could you name the number ? — No.
105(1. As far as meat goes there would be no diificulty 2— No ; for men write,
beef is only a penny, or a penny and a fraction of a farthing a pound, under the
contract ; that is for the convicts ; 1 believe it is 1 } d. for the soldiers.
io,-;7. Mutton is equally cheap ?— Not so cheap, but very cheap ; mutton by the
joint, from 4</. to 4 ] it. ; by the carcass, about 3 d. or 3 i d.
io,-,8. What should you put the average price of bread r--It fluctuates very
much ; when I came away they were threatened with a scarcity, wheat was 9 s.
a bushel, and it threatened to be higher, it was u ,s. ; it is a very uncertain country
for wheat ; the average price may be taken at -> d- per lb. or rather lower. When
the wheat in a scarce year was 13*'. ^er bushel, the 4 lb. loaf was 1 ,v. 1 d. Upon
the whole, 1 think the colony is capable of feeding any number of troops c con-
victs which is likely to be scnc out; I should say, double the number it feeds at
present ; the increased demand would cause an increased production to meet it.
Mr.
George Fairfavl.
17 July 1835.
Mnrtirii, 2'J" die .hilii, 1635.
KOBLKT GORDON, ESCaiRE, IN TH1<: ClwilK.
Deputy .Vssi^tant Coimnissary-gcneral //'. J Cireig, Esq., calln i -. j and ly.J. Oirig, Ksq.
further Examined. -
lo.V). IS it your opinion that the commissariat duties in the Canadas could be ^^ J"ly >«;'o-
eomlucted with a .^inaller cslablijhuicnt ? Ye--..
luiio. Will you state in what manner?— When I was sta».i'->Med at York, Hi the
years 1S27 and iSj8, tlie establislimeiit consisted ot' myself, a 'f-reasury clerk, two
issuers, and a labourer ; five altogether. T touhl huvi. conducted the duties with
t«o persons lesn. ^
lotii. I briieve you arc deputy-assistant contmissa>y-general ?-— 1 es.
i()t>-j. At Yoi^ ■ -Yes. . . .
10(13. "^^''''t J" >"" s"y ^I'c ostablLslmuMit ai York could be conducted with.'—
1 nni s|)eui.ing of the years !8.'7 ar.d 18 .'8.
0.1 I.
4
1004.
Vou
wimm
Ml
i
I
I
80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
»'. J. Greig, Esq. 1 064. You think that is capable of being reduced ? — In the vears 1 827 and 1 828
' 1 could have conducted the dutic ^vith two persons less. Since 1827 there has
aa July 1835. been an increase of 459/. 9*. id. in the expenses of the establishment, and last
year a deputy commissar) -general was added to the York establishment; making
an increase in the expenditure, since 1827 and 1828, of I, i.'Ji/. \\s. id. When
I heard of this arrangement I expressed my surprise that an ofHccr of the rank of
deputy commissarv-general should be sent there, since which, however, he has
been removed from the command altogether; which goes to prove that I was
correct in my opinion. I conceive, however, a deputy commissary-general of
ability quite equal to the performance of the duties in Canada, by which change
the Treasury will immediately efiect a saving of 1,200/. per annum. The military
pay of the commander of the forces in British North America is 755. lorf. per
diem ; wiiilst that of the conmiissary-general, an officer under his comnrand, is
94,v. I 1 (/. per diem. Tiie whole of the pay of the commissariat requires revision.
106.5. Then am I to understand, when you were there in the years 1827 and 1828
there w as only one assistant commissary-general r — Deputy-assistant commissary-
general.
1066. And two issuers? — One Treasury clerk, two issuers, and one labourer.
iu()7. It appears in the year i8;;3 that there was an assistant commissary-
general, two deputv-assistant commissary-generals, one conductor, and three issuers?
— Yes.
I0C8. Making an increase at York since the year 1827 r — Yes.
iot)9. And vet your opinion is that even the establisiiment in 1827, when you
were there, was more than sufficient ?— Certainly.
1070. Are vou aware that tliere has been any increase of duty r — There has
been an increase of duty ; a great number of pensioners have established them-
selves at York and in the neiglil)ourhood, which has increased the duty.
1071. Does the increase of pensioners admit of neces.sity of a greater increase
in tiie establishment? — 1 shouhi suppose, probably, an additional officer.
1072. Instead of three r — Yes.
1073. Do you think that the establisimicnt in 1S27 was more than sufficient to
dispatch the business? — There were two mo. j tiian were necessary. It was no part
of my duty tt) reconmiend reductions, unless called upon by the head of my depart-
ment to state mv opinion ; and even had I been disposed to volunteer an opinion,
1 should not have done so, for the following reasons : I at that time had from
12,000/. to 13,000 /. in the chest ; the expenditure averaged about 2,000 /. u month ;
I wrote to the commissary-general, stating to him that I should be very glad to
reduce my l)alance, and if money "as rerjuired at Kingston I should be very happy
to supply it, as I iiad to count this money every quarter, and it gave a great deal
of trouble and I iiad no use for it, as the British silver paid out of the chest during
the month was always brought back to ti)e oilice for 'i'rcasury bills : his reply was,
that that was a matter for his consideration, not mine. Had the commissary-
general called on me to state conscientiously wiiat establishment it required to
conduct the duties at York, I sliouid have stated that I could dispense with the
services of two person-.
1074. Now what sort of daily attendunc* did you, as deputy-assistant com-
inissary-genrral at York, give? — I was ut tf>t otfice generally every morning at 10
o'clock; whatever payments there M«re to be irittde. were made between 10 and
iialf-past tliree or tour o'clock.
107,1. Did von remain there the "hole oi tliat tinier -I remaineii generally
every day ; occasionally 1 iiave had to go up to tliC gwrtsoti on duty, and down to
the contractors. &c.
1076, Your ljusiiH>- was fljrJIy ? — Yes, it was.
1077. U'iiat did the conductor do" — There were i^Mie* to lite tro*»p» and to the
garrison, and tli( dillereiit d( partiricnts, Ike.
1117S. Dill i,i!( I- take place daily? — Ul ,. to the ire&ps weekly; but at to the
issues to nuliviiliud-, it v\a' impossible to say at what Umr they would call; these
issues were not so regular as to the troops
1079. Were the issuers persons who remained in tiie office: wb** i.s the
nieaninij of the word issuer J* — Thev are issuers of stores, nrovi-ioiis, sWfit-. fi.t I,
&.C. It is H subordinate appointment
idSo. ^'our ofMilion is, that *< Voil^. ilieii, one deputv -.i-sistaut conum^sn'y-
genrral, one conductor, and ync jisuer, would liave been enougli '. — \ os, that is my
opinion, I Cuuid have condiiCted the duties with tbftt e!«tabii»hmei»t la 1827 uiid
1828.
1081. \on
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 81
t three issuers?
I27, when you
,' .f
1081. You could liavc conducted it with a less establishment at that timer —
Yes, I could.
1082. Had you unytliing to do but to pay money r — Pay money, issue |jrovi-
sious, and issue stores, fuel, &c.
1083. Then your provisions were taken by contract: — The flour was issued to
bakers, which I consider a very bad method. I think the better way is to contract
for bread baked. 'J'iie system at some of tlie stations in Canada is to purchase
flour, lo issue it to tiie bakers ; and he gives so many pounds of bread for so many
pounds of (' »ur.
1084. Can you give, from your own knowledge, any other information as to
any odicr of the conmiissariat stations;? — No.
108,5. In tlie Canadus ? — Certainly.
1 080. Wiial one r — Fort George.
1087. What do you know of the establishment of Fort George in i8'27 ? — I was
ordered to Fort Cicor^e in 1828, to relieve Deputy-assistant Commissary-general
\\ ickins, and Mr. Wilson, a Treasury clerk. They were ordered to Drummond
Island. I relieved two persons there, and I perfurujed the duties of the station
with perfect ease.
loHS. You think, then, the establishment at Fort George was too large' — Yes,
I think it was unnecessary altogether.
loS.j. That there should be none at all? — In four hours you go from York to
Fort Geoi'ge by steam.
1090. Do you think that the whole counnissariat establishment at F'ort George
is unnecessary? — Yes; I will state why it is unnecessary.
1091. Because you can communicate in four hours with York? — Yes, that is
one reacM; and as everything is done l)y contract, there is nothing to prevent the
officer at Vork from going over monthly and settling with the contractors, if it is
even necessary to keep a detachment there, wliich I understand it is not.
1092. You consider that the establishment at Fort George is unnecessary alto-
gethc ? — Yes.
1093. Do you mean to say this, that the additional duty at Fort (ieorge can be
done with a diminution of est.bli.-hment, which you also recommend at York? —
I am spcakinu nMative to the years 1S27, 1828 and 1829 ; to tha years I was in
charge at York "'.ul l<'ort George.
1094. When you were therein the year 1 827, you not only had not enough to do
for yourself but you could have clone all the duties of Fort George without the
other establishment? — Yes, in the way I have po -.ted out.
109;,. My question is this, that as you recommend the establishment at Fort
George to be done away with, as here stated, altogether, would you think that
diminution of establishment, which you also reconnneud at York, is quite sufficient
to do the duty of York uiul also of Fort (Jeorge?— Yes, when 1 was there.
1096. Are you awuie of any duties that have been superadded since you were
there? — The increase id pensioners, I am not aware of anything else ; but I un-
derstand that I'cnefangnishine has addeu to the duties at York; it v\as a dc|)en-
dency on York. When I was in charge in 1827 and 1S2S, I entered into
contracts for su|)plying the naval establishment there, and they drew their supplies
of money from n)y chest; anil as far as I was eoneerned, I considered the duties,
1 mean the labour, insignilieant.
i()()7. What additional establishment would l>e necessary in order to pay those
pensioners? — I have alreatly stated that an additional officer would be enough.
I think that the establishment would be quite cipial for the duty, with that addi-
tional otVicer.
1098. Supposing the commissariat establishments at York and Fort George
were'uniled, with the additional duty of paviii'j: the pensioners, which thev have
now imposed on ihem, wliat wouhl be the establishment which you think sufficient
for those two united cstul)lishmentsr--An assistant commissary-general, a deputy-
a.-sistant, one conductor, and two issuers ; that is about the same establishment
1 had.
!()()(). No labourer? — No, the issuers are sutlitic'iit.
1 100, That would he sufficient to conduct the two united stations of York and
Fort George, with the addilioiml duty impo.sed on them of |)aying the pensioners?
-Yes.
0.11. M HOI. Do
ir. J. Oieig, Esq.
22 July 1835.
W. J. Grtig, Esq.
aa July 1835.
!■ I
ji
1
82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1 101. Do you know anytliing of any other estublislimeut r — There is Kingston.
11 0-2. At Kingston there appears to be at present an assistant commissary-
general, two deputy-assistants, one elerk, two issvii rs, ami one messenger ; do you
conceive that to be more than suflicient for the cst.ibhshnient in cjuestion at present,
for the duties wliich are to he performed ?— I think tlicre mif;ht be one officer less,
or the clerk reduced. \\'l\en I was statiimed there in 18.M), I believe the establish-
ment consisted of 10 or 11 persons, and I am of opinion that the duties could have
been conducted with three persons less.
1103. Do you know of any other establishment r— Yes, the Rideau Canal,
Bytown.
1104. Willi reference to the Rideau Canal, what can you state with respect to
that? — I was stationed there two years, 18:50 to 183-2; I li'ft in i83'2. There were
four officers there : tiiere was an assistant eommissary-i'^eneral. three deputy-assist-
ants, a cooper, and a labourer. The duties might have been executed with two
officers less ; the assistant, in lact, did nothing but sign his name and occasionally
write an official letter.
1 105. What do you say with regard to any other i)lacer — As a proof of the cor-
rectness of whiit I have staled nspccling the Rideau Canal, I beg leave to state
that for the first two or three years the duties were performed by Deputy-assistant
Commissary-s;enrral Miller, and one clerk or conductor, I cannot recollect which;
they performed the duties, I believt;, i'or the first two or three years, when there
was much more to do than latterly.
1106. What do you know of any other station? — Under commissary-general
Turquand, in the year 1 82,-,, the coinniissuriat establishment in the Canadas consisted
of 7() individuals in roimdnumbcrsof all classes; under Commissary-general Routh,
in the year 1 S33, the commissariat estahlishnicnt consisted of 84 individuals, not-
withstanding that the duties under the latter officer had very niuch diminished ; tor
instance, the i.-sue of spirits was discontinued to the troops. The accounts for the
commanii art in duplicate, with one abstract only ; whereas, under Mr. Tur(juand,
the accounts wire in triplicate, and an ali>tract for every head of serviri,-, anti there
were from 12 to 14 beads of service: tliciei'ore, one set of accoimls being done
away «ith, and all these abstracts, 1 should conceive the labour to have been about
third less or nearly a third, and consecpiently a reduction ought to have taken
place in the year 1827. it appears to me very many subordinate ap()ointments in
the com!ni.-.>ariat may he abolished altogether. Tiiere are very few issues now
made by the department, if you excejit the Indiiin pn smits, ami those occur
annually. Most of the supplies for tlie army are coiilracled for; conse(|uently the
issues a'le made by the party ciaitractiiig to lurnish these supplies, on orders from
the coniuii>sariiit otVicer. At all stations where there are barracks (if the public
departments are etmsolidaletO there is nothing to pi. \ent the commissariat l)eing
in chan'e of thj barracks, bv which means a liarrack estalilishment would be
unnecessarv. .
1107. Have \ou made aiiv calculation in your opinion ol the reduction which
may take piac «> in the comml-^ariat establi>hnieiUs in Canada, without atVecting the
service ?— I can only .->tate that Deputy Commissary-general I'orlK'S, (now on half-
jiay in Ca i ,da, and wiio serveil in those colonies, and has lately returned from
Jamaica, a gentleman standing %ery hi;;h in the service, and exceedingly clever in
commissariat matters,) luis frei|ueiilly told me that lie could conduct lite commissa-
riat duties in Canada at half the expensi .
1108. Half wliat expense ?--Iialf the |-,,<ino/. ; when 1 was tiiere the uxjiensc
was i;,,u()o/., and Deputy Commissary-general Forbes has t spri'ssed to me his
astonishment liiat tin authorities >liould approve of such an establishment.
I UK). I1 it your opinion that, "illi the diitiis that now (all <m the commissariat
of pnynig peusiouer.s and of di^tributmg Indian pn;>eiit>, that instead of the com-
missariarcosting i.'i.ooo/. a year, thai it might be carried 011 as efficiently for one
half that sum? — 1 should say a third les,>.
I I 10. Do you think it might lie catiietl on tor 10,000/. ? — 1 think it could,
nil. J lave you ever made aiiv iepresent;ilion t'> the Treasury to that effect r-^
No, 1 have not ; because it was not my duty 10 coiimient upon lUe conduct of my
sujMiriors..
Illi. You have never made a reprcseutution to that effect in any (juarter r —
No I have not ; I had some convn.siilii!n la-t v :ir mih a .M ■mb r of I'arliament,
who
»i.
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 83
who was one of this Commiftee, and lie gave inc a note to Mr. Rice, the present ff^.j. Greig, Esq.
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who saw inc and asked me several questions, which 1
he took a note of at the time. The conversation had reference to the reduction in !»« July 1835.
the connnissariat establishments in Canada.
1113. Is il yutir opinion that the ordnance civil establishment would admit of
bcinj; reduced ? — Yes, it is.
11 14. In what manner? — Previous to the war, there was no ordnance establish-
ment at Montreal, Isle aux Noix, Kinuston, and the Rideau Canal. At precent
there are lar^rc osiahlishments at all these stations, or at least two of them. Il
appears to me, in the way in which the duties are now conducted, that ei'her
the commissariat or tlie ordnance, no matter wliicli, arc quite ecjual to the duties
of both departments.
wir,. Su()posiiig you were to carry into effect the contemplated reduction of
the ordnance, would tlu; coinmissariat be susceptible of reduction to the same
extent which you have adverted to just now? — That I cannot say, because I do
not exactly know the duties of the ordnance. Will the Committee allow me to
state a case, but one which shows the system that is i)ursucd in Canada ? The
accounts in the ordnance are made out in triplicate, and I should imagine the
forms were much the .same as they were in the reign of (iuoen Elizabeth : for
instance, if any articles be required, say for the adjutant-general's department, a
requisition is made by the adjutant-general, approved of by the military secretary,
and sent to the ordnance storekeeper ; tiiese articles arc not in store j the ordnance
storekeeper then makes a reciuisition on the commissary-general, the articles are
purchased by tlic commissariat, and furnisiied to the adjutant-general ; they are
never seen by the ordnance. The individual fronj whom tiie articles are purchased
then makes out a set of accounts in triplicate; he prays to be allowed the sum for
the articles that have been supplied to the adjutant-general ; the rates arc certified
by two competent persons to be agreeable to the market-price of the country.
The account is on a sheet of foolsca[) pajHr : on the first page is tiie tradesman's
account or bill ; on the second page is a letter from the senior or chief respective
olficer, desiring the ordnance storekeeper to pay to the individual wiio has furnished
the articles the amount of the w ithin account ; on the third side of the siieet is the
receipt ; and 1 have often seen accounts to the amount of lialf-a-crown made out in
that form, with the exception as to the certificate of rates. Now, it a|)|)ears to me
that if the rerpiisition came direct from the adjutant-general to the commissary-
general, it would sa.e an immense deal of trouble ; or indeed to tiie ordnance store-
keeper.
1 1 It). There would be a consequent saving of expense in the clerical department?
— No doubt of it. For nil building materials reipiirtd for fortifications, barracks, &c.
under the control of the royal enuincers, the reciiiisitions are made in the same
manner ; instead of applying ilirect to the commissariat, everything has to go
through the ordnance; i»y wiiicii it wouki appear that tiiese duties are performed
by the ordnance, when in fact they are executed l)y the comniissariat, who have
to advertise, to enter into contracts, to raise money, and make the payments upon
ordnance drafts, which is also an increase of labour to both departments.
1117. Are the two departments, in point of fact, blended together in a certain
vay} — They are very distinct: all this I imagine is intended as a check, but I do
not sec that it is any check. I conceive the ccitificate of receipt (on the face of
the voucher) of the head ol the de|)artmeiit f(ir \»liom the articles are recpiired and
supplied is (|uile sufficient, and oiigiit to he considered perfectly satisfactory to llie
public.
1 1 iS. And there arc valuers as to the price, are there? — .\11 accounts over 10/.
are certified by competent persons, as to the fairness of liie ciiarges.
ill(|. Do von think any considerable saving of expense would be effected by
simplilying the mode ol keeping these accounts ? — No doubt of it ; I have a system
of accounts that 1 have drawn up applicable to the colonies, which would simplify
and reduce the expense very materially.
1 IJO. Do you think il the ordnance ilcpartnienl in Lo\\er Canada was reduced
to the extent which you have suggested, lluil the comi!!i>-biU!al would lie th.en
capable of the same reituction which you have also rcconmieiuied ? — 'llie estimate
stales i,',,n(u
venr for tiie ordnance, and l-'i.odi)/, tor the commissariat;
I tiiink I;-,, 0011/. a vear w(<uld perform the duties of both departments, jiro-
vidcd the --ei vices aie uniltd. In the commissariat it frKiiiently happ.'iis that
0.1
Jl 2
methciiMii
liifci^aaswsjwajs*
84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
Jf. J, Greig, Esq. inefficient officers are employed who tin nothino. I have served with four assistant
^— — — con)missarics-<>cncrnl in (Junndn, who did nothinf: hut sign their names ; the whole
28 July 1835. duty was pcrtoriiied hy niysolt' and other junior officers ; all they did was to
impede the service. For instance, if a draft v,as required at any one of the out-
stations, or any other document requiring the signature of the assistant commissary-
general in charge, if he ^^■as not in the office the party had to call again j while the
junior officer was generally at his post and could liave signed the document.
1121. Can you give any information respecting the telegraphic def)artment in
Canada? — The telegraph ileiiartmcnt is paid out of the military chest, Hud I think
it ought to be paid hy the provincial government and the mcrclumts of the
colony.
1122. Do you consider it more commercial than political"' — In time of war
these telegra|)hs were established at considerable expense, but they arc used now
more for commercial purposes.
1 123. Were tiiose telegrai)lis originuiiy established for military purposes, or for
civil purposes?— I believe for military pur|ioscs.
1 124. You think now they are no longer useful? — I think they are useful, but I
think the province derives all tiic advantage of them ; for instance, the merchant
vessels at a distance are announced l)y them.
1 1 25. In your opinion tlu; merciiants should he called on to pay for their expense
during peace? — I think they ought to contribute a part of the expense.
112(1. These telegraphs are made use of in announcing tiie arrival of merchant
ships?— Yes, merchant ships and troops' ships of war.
1127. And men-of-war? — Yes, once in a t»velvcmonlh perhaps.
1 12S. Do you know «hat the whole expense of the telegraph department is? —
I believe about ,Y^~ I. a year.
1 129. Do you know anything of liie money tliat is allowed as command money
to officers in conunand as allowance, in Canada ?— Yes, I do ; at Penetanguishine,
at Amiierslburg and Foil St. George, there is 75. id. a day allowed to each of
the officers in command.
1130. Forwliat? — As conunand money.
1 1 Ti. Do you know the rank of the ollicers?— Two captains and a lieutenant.
ii:;2. Do you say that is unnecessary?- This was nn allowance granted (luring
the war, they being frontiir stations His .Majesty's warrant was issued for this sum;
but there is no counnand niouiy issui.d at York, Kingston or .Montreal, whieh are
much more iujportant stations ; at Kingston there is an entire regiment and a
start". ... , ,r
1 133. What is there at Montreal ? —five companies ot a regnncnt and a statl.
1 134. Do you know whether there are lieutenant coliintls at those two stations,
Montreal and Kuigston?- -There is a lull colonel at KiuLi-ton and .Montrtial.
1135. Do they receive as commanding oilicers of that regiui 'nt any allowance
hevond their niilitary pav ? - I know of nothing : at Fort (ieorge there is a
captaui and 40 men' 1 "have a-ked the reason of this allowance, and I have
understood it was a kind of table money; that whfii Upper Canada was tirst
settled there were no inns and tiie coa.manding tilhcer was oi)lig(d to entertain
persons ; it was rather a tax on a man's income, and therefore this allowance was
granted ; how( ver the country now is as thickly settled as many parts of England.
11311. \\itli re-i)eei to the allowance to the clerk at IVnetanguishine, do you
object to that?— lilo not know why the commanding officer should reipiire a
clerk ; it strikes me as unnecessary.
1137. What hive you to .say with reference to the chaplains* department ?— It
is very much reduced ; but I do not kr:ow aiivlhing to prevent the elergymen at
the ilirtcrent stations, perlorming the duties of eliaplain.
1 1 3S. Have you any observation to make on the a|)pointmei)t of brigade-majors ■:
— There are two brigade-majors in Canada, and there are only two regiments at
(iuebee, or parts ol legimenl^ ; and the other legimentK are distributed, one at
Montreal and one at Kingston, and the other regiment at the upper ports.
I is necessary r — There are.
1 131). Do you think one
aiLiai
more
I believe, two brigade-majors in Canada.
1140. Do you think, one brigade-major having ceased, any
could be made bv removing the other brimde-uiajor?
further reduction
-I am not sufficiently
accpiainted
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES.
85
iiin : wl)ilc the
<3 July 1835.
acquainted with military matters to ofl'cr an opinion ; but I beg to say, there is a W. J, Gnig, Eiq.
deputy adjutant-general at bead-quarters, and an assistant at York.
1141. Have you any observation to make on the engineer departments at all
the important stations ? — There is a lar^e local engineer department at Quebec,
Kingston, Montreal, and other stations ; there are a number uf individuals borne
on the strength of these de|)urtnicnts ; foremen of artificers, foremen of carpenters
and masons, &c. I think if the public works were contracted for, instead of
keeping u|) these permanent establishments, that it would be cheaper; always
having oflicers of the royal engineers to superintend the works as they progress.
1142. Have you any observation to make with regard to the barrack depart-
ment? — There are barrack-masters at most of the stations in Canada ; and as
I have before stated, if the public departments were consolidated, I do not see
why a commissariat officer (or whichever officer is there, whether a commissariat
or ordnance officer,) could not perfovm the duties of barrack-master as well.
1 143. Do you think the duties that are now performed by the barrack-masters,
by the officers under the ordnance, and by the local engineer departments, might
all be consolidated and performed by one set of persons? — I think you require but
one (lo))drtmenl to i)erform all tliose duties : indeed every duty connected with the
su|)plying of an army, or for carrying on public works : one department I consider
quite eqtial to the duties, and I am sure they would be performed much more
efficiently than at present.
Vemrh, 31* div Jtitii, 1835.
ROBERT GORDON, ESQUIRE, IN THE CHAIR.
Mr. William Green, called in ; and Examined.
It and u stair.
1 144. HAVE you been employed as commissary? — Yes.
1 14,';. Have you been in Nova .Scotia? — Yes.
1 i4t). .Are you lately returned from Nova Scotia? — Yes.
1 147. Mow long since? — About lour months.
1 148. Have you ever been en;ployed in Canada? — Yes.
1 149. As a commissary ? — Yes.
11,50. Tlic Committee have observed that the expense of the commissariat in
Nova Scotii' amounts to rather less than ."jjOoo/. a year, whereas the expense of
the commit ariat in Canada exceeds i.'i.ooo/., and there are nearly the same
nunibtr ol troops employed in each of those colonies; can you give any informa-
tion to the Committee of the cause of that excess in one colony as compared with
the other?— In consequence of the greater number of military posts in Canada
wlnie troo|)s are stationed, public works carried on, and payments to be made; a
small number of troops rccpiiring nearly as nuich trouble in provisioning them as a
whole regiment ; and lUe merely provisioning the troops being, in garrison, and
particularly in lime of peace, the least portion of the duly which the commissariat
are called upon to perform, but it depending more on the public works, on the
movement of troops, and on the various payments ; those for half-pay and pensions,
particularly to Ciielsea out- pensioners, are very considerable in Canada, where
they are paid individually by the commissariat : also, the great distance of the
posts from head-quarters, and from each other, requiring the superintendence of an
othter at most of them, and where there are many works carrying on, or payments
to make, the assistance of one or more, the officers being employed frequently as
clerks : also, from the greater responsibility of the stations, an officer of the rank
of commissary -general being employed there.
1151. Do you not consider many of the posts in Canada might be consolidated?
— During the latter part of the time I was there, tiiere were many of the post-*
that were consolidated. The last charge I had there, I had four posts.
n.52. What were those four posts? — Chambly, St. John's, Isle aux Noix and
William Henry, where they had some time before commissariat oflicers to each.
0.11. M 3 1153. Do
Mr. Wm. Gretn.
31 July iSsfi.
Mr. IVm. Grttn.
3t July 1835.
86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE
1153. Do you know whether the posta at York might be consolidalcd r— No,
they are at a considerable distance : it depends upon the number of troops and the
works goinu on.
1154. York is the same as Toronto ?— Yes j they are at a considerable
distance.
1155. What is the distance between them?— I think by land it must be 120
miles.
1 156. What by water? — The distance is less by water ; in lien of getting round
the buy, they arc able to go acrosa^ it is not more than 50 miles by water.
11
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS IN THE COLONIES. 87
I contiiderable
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APPENDIX.
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88
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
i
|i
I i
i
LIST OF APPENDIX.
No. i.-Retuov of the Numbs™ and Distribution of the Effective Force, Officers, Nnn-commi,..
r".l w .""• Tv n '"'' .^t °^ '•''" ^",''''' ^""y- *"^'"'""g Colonial Co.ps, in New
South Wales and Van Diemena Land, in each Year since 1815: including Artillery an.l
Engineers p. 89
No. 2— Return of all Pay Allowances, Emoluments and Salaries issued to Officers of th»
Mibtary, Ga.ris.,n. Med.cal and Commissariat Stalls, and of the Ordnance Department;
m New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, for the Twelve Months ended 31 March
' ■*"' P- 90
. No. 3._Di8tributimi of the Troops serving in New South Wales and Van Diemens Land on the
lot 11 111) 1 0r) iX ••"■""■__
^ p- 95
No. 4 — Return ol the Numbers and Distribution of the Effective Forcp Mffi^o.o M,.„ ™.„-
sioned Ofllcers, an. Rank and File, of the British Arr/i^^h'^^^'e^r'^Li^ "ardr
to r-^e latest Returns received, including Colonial Corps, and Artillery and Engineers. ^'
^"' ^"iausriulim ""^ '-^ ^™-°'" '^"'"^ '" ^'""' '*""''' "'"^ '" DeP^'-^encies, according''io the
P- 9t>
No. 6.-Distiibution of the T->ops at Bermuda on the ist January 1835, the Date of the 'jtf.t
Ueiurn leceived •--.... .-" "<; .oicm
- P- 97
No. 7.-Distiibutioii <,f ibe Troops at Newfoundland on the 1st February 183/;, the Date of thn
latest Keturn received j 'io> ••'■= "»"! "• lut
- P- 97
No. 8 -Distribution of the Troops serving in Canada on the 1st January 1835, the Da'e of the
latest Ketuni received -----.. j ^'^' b.«- ■ mi^
- P- 98
No. 9— Kstimale of what might be the probable. Expense of the Commissariat, cleared (rom inv
Convict Arrangements, and the Balance between that Lstim.ite and the present L.spwiae.
P- 99
No. lo.-Treasury Letter addressed to the Ollicer commanding in New South Wales, resnectin^
Arrangemenu tor conducting the Duties of the Conunissariat Department, and IVan fir
of Government Funds from the Military Chest to the Hanks at Sydney - . p. ,00
No. U.-Abstract of Requisition for Tools, Material, Clothing and Stores of different Descrintions
requiredlorthe use of several Public Departments, connected with the Maintenance";
Convuts lor One \ear, from the 25lh December 1831 to the 24th December 1812
inclusively -..-.... '".>*>
P- 103
No. i«.-Proportional Uiflcrence between the Gave of 4,800 Convicts, and the Care of as manv
Soldiers -•---.... ""iiiy
p. 118
No. 13 — Correspondence respecting Examination of Arrear Accounts . - . - p. u8
No, l4.-Exttacts ot- a Minute of the Commissioners for Auditing the Public AccounU, dated
J n|>ril lOJj • - ■ . . _ , _ ^ ^ _nfni
■ " p« 1 « 1
:
[ 89 ]
APPENDIX.
I
— No. 1.—
NEW SOUTH WALES, VAN DIEMEN'S LAND, &c.
RETURN of the Numbers and Distribution of the Effective Force, Officers, Non-commis-
sioned Officers, and Rank and I.'ile, of the British Army, including Colonial Corps, in each
Year since 1815 ; including Artillery and Engineers.
Officers Present,
or on Detached Duty
at the Station.
1
i
■3
u
e ,
a n
& s
.a -
"n'
a.
a
c
c
ii
3
3
1
3
1
3
<
il
1
11
J2 3
c
C
35 Jan. 181G
-
1
3
9
13
6
»
1
40
»9
572
— 1817
-
1
1
9
18
4
1
1
3
44
19
684
— 1818
-
1
3
10
>4
11
1
3
30
n
90B
— 1819
-
1
3
9
J9
9
I
1
a
37
12
7G8
— 1820
-
1
3
9
17
7
1
2
41
>3
722
— 1821
-
1
3
10
21
8
1
1
50
13
1,002
— 1822
-
I
2
9
>9
1
1
2
50
16
1,023
— 1833
-
1
3
7
12
6
1
1
46
>5
990
— 1824
-
4
14
18
12
2
2
a
2
3
67
23
1,063
— 1825
-
1
4
15
>7
11
3
1
3
2
60
22
1,200
— l82(i
-
3
5
18
28
t
3
I
2
2
3
75
30
1.5C9
— 1827
-
3
4
21
37
7
3
2
2
2
3
100
29
1,766
— 18:8
-
1
4
22
40
13
3
2
3
3
3
128
42
1.974
— 1829
-
2
6
sC
42
»7
2
3 3
3
5
.43
38
2,397
— 1830
-
2
5
26
32
iG
3
3 3
2
4
114
33
2,047
t Jan. 1831
-
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37
2,107
Adjutant-General's Office,!
2j March 183., J
John Macdonald,
Adjutant-General.
473-
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APPEND. .V TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
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ON MILITARY ISTAHLISIIMENTS, COLONIES.
95
~ No. .1. —
DISTRIBUTION of the Trooi's serving in .Veit- South IVales and Van Diemen's Laud,
on the I8t Mny 1834.
Sydney - -
Longbottoni
Puriunattii
Liverpool
George's River
Bnnn-boiig -
Windsor - -
Maitlaml - -
Newcastle
Port Ste|)hens
Emu Plains
Spring Wood
■Weather Board
Cox's Uiver -
Batluirst - -
Port Macquairie - -
Moreton Bay - - -
Norfolk Island - - -
In charge of Civil Power
In solitary confinement
Servants to Officers
Mounted Police
Van Diemen's Land and
Swan River - - -
4ih Foot
17th ditto
■ jth ditto
I7tli ditto
17111 ditto
50th ditto
5olh ditto
17th ditto
17th ditto
17th ditto
l7tli ditto
l7tli ditto
i7tli ditto
I7tli ditto
17111 ilitto
I7tli ditto
4th ditto
17tli ditto
1-th ditto
17111 ditto
4tli ditto
yOtli ditto
4tli ditto
I7tli ditto
•21st ditto
4tli ditto
ilst ditto
50tli ditto
4tii ditto
I7tli ditto
■21st ditto
4th ditto
17th ditto
5()tli ditto
r 4tll ditto
) l7tli ditto
V:ist ditto
l^uth ditto
505 Rank and File.
1
215
4
14
20
1-2
19
3H
13
Co
1
1
79
44 —
33 —
Ho —
131
13
2
Corps iu India
o3
48
5
1
1
7
12
,133 Rank and File.
But as the whole of the ^olh must have joined since date of Return, tlie entire Force,
including N. C. Ollicers, is now -2,804.
Colonial Ofhec,
19 March 1835.
J
473.
N4
9(5
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
— No. 4. —
RETUllN of the Numbers ami Distribution of the ErcFCTivr. Iouce, OrricERs, Non-commis-
moKED Offickhs, and Hank and File, of the Hritish Army in the several Colonies, according
to the latest Returns received, including Colonial Corps, and Artillery and Engineers,
Officer! PrrMiit, or on
Deliched Dul^ «t the Stition.
a
1
a
S T A T I N S.
1
-
II
1
ill
U 1 J
i
3
i
ij
1
It
1
1
(
Gibraltar . . -
1
7
3
30 48
20
.'>
5
4
4
8
l(i8
^u
2,804
Malta
Ionian Islands
1
5
3
2(i
37
39
40
>3
34
5
4
5
5
5
6
5
6
5
158
iKR
52
«5
9
38
2.47 9
3,047
493
1.757
West Coast of Africa -
Cepe of Good Hope -
—
a
4
4
90
5
3>
4
13
2
4
4
1
4
1
3
23
no
Mauritius - . .
-
b
4
33 ^ 30
lO
3
3
3
4
^
127
43
3,030
Cej'lon ...
-
7
5
37
bS
23
3
4
4
,1
U
274
78
3.88C
2.133
2,036
276
3,408
New Si)uth Wales, iic.
-
3
(j
93
33
31
3
3
3
3
5
iif)
17
Nova Scotia, A;c.
Newfoundland
•
4
1
2
23
3
3«
7
10
3
4
3
4
a
4
1
132
'I
Canada ...
I
7
5
33
4>
'9
4
5
5
4
7
159
50
llermuila ...
-
s
1
9
13
3
-
I
1
-
3
3«
■4
G13
Janiaicu ...
-
5
5
35
52
lb
5
(i
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4
G
"77
60
'-,837
Honduras ...
-
-
1
1
4
3
-
-
.
1
30
5
13
338
450
Bahamas - . -
-
1
-
3
6
4
I
_
1
I
_
34
Vindward and Leeward\
Colonies - - -J
6
58
C5
'
la
33
9
11
10
10
n
340
20C8
>03
071
5,530
Total - -
4
64
55
3C1
5'5
225
47
55
5G
52
7'
33,117
Adjutant General's Office.l
20 March 1835. J
John Macmmuld,
Adjutant-General.
1' I
— No. 5. —
DISTRIBUTION of '.he Tnoors serving in Hwa ficolia and its Dependencies, according to the
latest Returns.
STATIONS.
"I!
Halifa.v, &c. .
Annapolis
Fort Cumberland
Frederictowu -
St. .lolin, New Bruns- 1
wick - - - Y
St. Andrew's, Ditto -■{ '
Cape Breton - J
Prince Edward's is- j
land - - . "l
Newfoundland
REGIMKNTS.
I
O
Royal Artillery
Rovnl Engineers, &c
S.'.il I'liot
9Gtli Foot
Rifli' Brigade, 1st bt"
Kovnl Artillery
83d Foot
Hoyal .'\rtillery
Royal Artillery
34tli Foot
Royal Artillery
Itoyal Engineers
34th Foot
Royal Artillery
:t4th loot
Royal Artillery
8,jd Foot
lloyal .Artillery
83d Foot
I Total . -
f Royal .Artillery
; RdUil nii^iiift.'i.s
I ' New foundland Veterans
G
3
7
10
G
3
3
31
•i'J
30
I
3
I
I
ly
1
11
1
7 23
- i 1
1
- i 3
48
1
132
13
_, TOTAL
i iltanLamlFile,
43 I 203(
Adjutant-tiencral'N Office,"!
20 .March 183J. j
Juhn Mac'loiiuld,
Adjutant-General.
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS, COLONIES.
97
a, 80 4
3,047
493
1,757
2,030
3,88(i
«-i33
2,036
376
3,408
C13
3,837
338
450
— N0.6.—
DISTRIBUTION of the Troops tt Bermuda on the lit January 183J, the Date of the lateit
Iteturn received.
STATIONS.
St. George'a
Ireland Island
Ferry
Gibbi Hi.I
Mount I.angton
Fort Cunningham
Hen Island
Fort George -
COR pa.
Royal Artillery . - -
Royal Sappers and Miners -
30th Foot - . - -
Royal Sappers and Miners -
30th Foot - - - -
30th Foot . • • -
30th Foot - - - -
30th Foot . - - "
Royal Artillery -
Royal Artillery -
Royal Artillery -
30th Foot . - -
1
1 I -
Total
4t
1
60
37
350
44
98
4
3
10
1
1
1
4
9 »5
4 36
H
613
Adjuunt-General's Onice,\
30 March 1835. J
John Macdonald,
Adjutant-Genoral.
— No. 7- —
DISTRIBUTION of the Thoofs at M«/ouwd/<;«rf on the .»t February .835. the Date of the
latest Return received.
STATIONS.
CORPS.
E
t
-a
1
1
J
1
s
2
s
CO
1
3
s
1
•■a
a
1
St. John'i
Royal Artillery ' •
Royal Engineers
itoyal Newfoundland Vete-1
ran Companies • -J
Total - -
1
2
I
1
8
1
3
>3
3
6
53
223
1
3
10
1
16
8
376
Adjutant-General's Office,"!
30 March 183.5. J
John Macdonald,
Adjutant^General.
473-
, ■ II 'i-fii fi . m^i >' . ' lli- l J -^ ' '- ' W^f tf ' SPt^l'!
'> jf'M - ^4S^:iV!^.fmm - ^ 'r ^v^: Arf. - T ; ' ''^
ft8
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SEI.RCT COMMfTTEE
I' i><l
— No. H. —
DISTRIBUTION of the Tboopii icrving in Canada on the ut January 18:15. the Hate of the
latcti Itcturn received.
• TATION».
Quebec
Grout 'aland
Montreal
St Helen's
Iile Aux Noix
Sorcl
Coteau du Lac
I.achine -
St. Philip's
Rideau Canal
Kingston
Fort Henry
Toronto •
Fort George -
Grenville Canal
Cataroque
Amherstburgh
Penetangiuhene
CORPS.
Koynl Artillery •
lloyal I^n^inl■cr8
i.'jth Foot -
'i4th Foot -
3'jd Foot -
6()th loot -
79th Foot -
3ad Foot -
Itoyol Engineers
a4tn Foot -
79th Foot -
i
Uoyol Artillery
J4th Foot -
34th Foot -
34th Foot •
34lh Foot -
34th Foot •
Royal Engineers
J 4th loot •
C6th Foot -
Uoyal Artillery -
Koval Fngiueers
I5tli Fool -
6t)th Fool -
Royal Artillery -
Uoyal Artillery •
Uoyul I'.iiginccrs
1.1th Foot -
CGth Foot -
79th Foot -
Royal Arlillery -
i.'ith Foot -
(jtjtii Foot -
Royal Engineers
66th Foot -
15th Foot -
151I1 Foot -
TOTAl -
Adjutant-General's Office,
30 March 1C35.
13
3a
ei 35
>59
10
131
1
a
'.)
411
a
4«3
35a
"i)
4
a
1
S3
«J*J
5
3U7
U
8
364
3
a
3
41;
I
41)
40
•j,408
John MiicilunalJ,
Adjutant-General.
A
c
f
■fl
Q
9
1
1
131
-
1
-
5
10
411
-
9
8
4«3
-
•1
9
35a
-
—
1
Ci)
-
50
•"
5
-
4
-
1
-
1
-
—
-
S3
3
<J*J
-
5
10
3U7
-
y
-
8
7
464
-
3
"
a
-
3
\
4(i
—
1
I
41)
-
40
50
•j,408
ON MILITARY ESTABLIRIIMENTS, COLONIES.
99
— No. 9. —
KSTIMATF, of what might be tho probablo Exprnsp. of the Commuiari at, cleared ^^^^^^^^ "vi^^-
from any Coi.victAruiigemeiilii, and the Balance between that EBtimatfl and the ^""'' ^'
prcRent Expense. — — — —
Id order to frame an entimnto lO an to show to the Committee, in reference to tiueitiona
14') nnd 444 . the increased expense thai i» incurred for the commissariat establishment in
New Soulli VVulcH, in consequence ol llu nrran>;emenU required for the providing of pro-
visions nn<l cloiliint', &C. for the convicts, it would be necessary to ascertain the numbtf of
detached stations tiiat are mainiained in conseciuence of the presence of convicts.
The rtccuiii|)iiiiyii>U' " dislrilmtion" of the troops servinq; in New South Wales (which has
been olitiiined i'roin the n(l)ut«iii-H(!iiorui's ollico), shows llrit besides the force m Sydney,
there me delaclimeiits of the mililaiy at 17 ditfcrent stauons, some of ilieso at very con-
sidfnil)lc <lisUiii<:cs from Sydney, and from each other, and it may be presumed that at
many of these stations, soldiers would not be employed if there were not any convicts upon
the spot.
It appears from this paper that the military force on the 1st May 1834, amounted to
»i593» includini; the commissioned ollicers.
If this force were concentrated within a short distance from head-quarters, the charge
for a commissariat establishment would be comparatively small, bnt being dispersed in
detachineiits, at various places at considerable distances from c > other, the labour ot
l.rovidiiiL' ofsupplvinLsand of accountiir; for li.e commissariat services of each necessarily
reipiires a lar|^er es'tablisiimeiil for the performance of such increased duties.
For instance in Gibraltar, where there were 3,iK8 military to be supplied, the number of
officers and clerks e.iiploved in the commissariat is six. with eight subordinate persons
(independently of the bakinu; and transport establishments), at an expense of 2,170/. per
a mum whiUt in Nova Scotia (includin.^ New Rrunswick), where there were only 2,,6.
militarv and where there are several sub-stations, the number ot olHcers and clerks is U,
with -^'subordinates, at a charge of about 3,990/. per annum.
It m IV be fair to assume that if the ont-slations in New South Wales were not more
mine ous than the o-it-.talions in Nova Scofa. and that the duties of the commissariat
"". unconnected with the convict service, the charge for the commissariat would not be
ere t"r than the chai-e for NovaSeolia; in which case the diterence would be about
! 7 / ss I, r annum; or. if the military force in New South Wales, taking it at 1,593,
tMetcemr\t".l within a mo.lerate distance, as is the case with the troops at Gibraltar.
The cEe for the commissariat establishment would be still less, the reduction would then
be about 6.000/.
This is calculating upon the establishment as it existed in New South Wales in the
«„.!r H .^ a' exhihiTcd in the return submitted to the Committee. Since that period con-
JiderabKuc'ioi' h..ve been ertected lu the commissariat establishment, to the extent of
about a,ooo/. per annum. T. ArcUr.
Unthurat, isOroilet.
Maittsnd, 127.
Newcmtle, 13a.
Port Macquarie,
<ioo miles.
Mnrcton Uay, 400.
Norfolk Island,
1,000 milci.
UisTRUif rioN of theTuooi's serving in \eu; Soh/A /IW« on ist May 1834, the date of
the latest Ketum.
Adjutant-general's Office, 1 April 1835.
s
C«4
Distance
SiATIONS.
UEOI.MEiNTS.
i.
c
"i
i
•1
5
frum
•^
0.
1
n
H
3
Sydney.
c
^
03
«
a
s
Itfiln.
f
4th Toot -
2
5
11
4
30
12
524
Sydney - - -
'I
17th — -
-
-
-
-
-
-
.5
Loner IVittom -
- 1 17th - -
-
-
-
-
-
-
218
9
Faraniaila
- 1 I7lh — -
2
2
4
4
21
11
1,5
1 20
i
Liverpool
I7ih — -
50ih — -
1
-
-
1
1
-
4
'4
47;i-
2
{coutinuid)
.i-:«s«*te«&«tea^;
100
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Kttimatc of Com-
misiuiriat Depart-
ment.
STATIONS.
George's River
Bong Bong
Windsor - - .
Maitland
Newcastle
Port Stephen's
Emu Plains
Spring Wood -
Wealnerboard -
Cox's River
Bathurst • - .
Port Macquarie
Moreton Bay -
Norfolk Island
Mounted Police
On leave in the Colony
REGIMENTS.
■{
■{
i
60th Foot
17th —
17th —
17th —
I7tn —
17th —
17th —
17th —
17th —
17th —
4th —
17th —
17th —
17th —
4th —
50th —
4th —
17th —
50th —
4th —
17th —
Total
16
33
20
12
22
»9
38
12
60
1
1
79
44
33
80
»3i
2
6;3
48
5
DiiUiMC
froiB
Sydney.
10
78 24
1^(26
}■'
81
35
127
133
38
63
86
136
300
400
,000
Af(fw.— The 50th Regiment is on passage from England to New South Wales as an
additional regiment.
No. 10,—
Treasury Letter
respecting Curomit-
sariat Arrange-
ments.
TREASURY LETTER addressed to the Officer commvoJing in New South Wales,
respecting Arrangements for conducting the Duties of tue Commissariat Department,
and Transfer of Government Funds from the Military Chest to Banks at Sydney.
Sir, Treasury Chambers, 3 December 1832.
I AM commanded by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury to acquaint
you that my Lords have had under their consideration your predecessor's letters of the 8lh
and loth June, and 23d July 1831, relative to the commissariat establishment in the colony
of New South Wales, and enclosing the copy of a general orHer which he issued on the
30th June 1831, rixing the future establishment at 51 persons, including issuers and store-
keepers, and prescribing the manner in which the various duties of the department were to
be performed.
My Lords approve generally of the arrangements which have been made, and are inclined
to tlimk, considering all the circumstances connected with the department at the time
the general order above mentioned was issued, that it would not then have been expedient
to have reduced the establishment below the number fixed by that order. My Lords are
at the same time of opinion that several material changes may be made in the present
system of conducting the business of the commissariiit at New South Wales, which by
simplifying the accounts and abridging labour, cunnot fail to afford the means of conduct-
ing the duties with a much fewer number of persons. Their Lordships more particularly
allude to the discontinuance of the general depot of stores in the custody of the commis-
Rariat, and of the military chests, and to a less minute examination of the accounts of the
several sub-accountants m the office of the deputy commissary-general at Sydney.
Upon the first of these points;, my Lords feel saiisfied from the information they have
obtained from officers of the department, who have been recently serving in the colony,
that there is no longer any necessity for keeping a large slock of articles in store for the
use of the military and colonial departments, but that the mercantile resources of the colony
are novv fully adequate to meet all the necessary demands of the public service. Their
Lordships are therefore decidedly of opinion, that as soon as the requisite arrang< menta
can be made for the purpose, the whole of this branch of business should be brought to a
close; and that all the stores and other articles of every description, for which it has
hitherto been the practice to forward requisitions to this Board, should henceforth be
riiiichnsed in the colonv bv contract, throuirh the ir^eHliiin r^f ■-'.iihlir. nHvrrtis^mf'^is :;"d
tenders ; and when it is coiisicered how many persons are now employed in the custody
and issue of stores, arid in the making up and examination of the minute and complicated
nrxounts connected with them; all of whose services may henceforth be dispensed with,
when the stores simll be given up ; there cannot be 11 donbi but that a very inijiort.int
saving will ultimately rtsult from this proiio»cd chaii;ri. of syslum.
With
jdSfcJ
DiiUiMc
1
rroiB
1
Sydney.
20
13
8i
22
35
38
127
132
12
60
I
1
79
44
33
80
131
2
63
48
6
h
38
63
86
136
aoo
400
lOOO
126
Wales as an
South Wales,
Department,
it Sydney.
nber 1832.
f to acquaint
rs of the 8th
in the colony
BHued on the
rs and store-
nent were to
ore inclined
at the time
en expedient
ly Lords are
the present
38, which by
of conduct-
particularly
the commis-
)unts of the
ley.
n they have
the colony,
store for the
if the colony
irice. Their
rrangi'iiieots
irought to a
rhich it has
nceforth be
the custody
complicated
K-nsfd with,
y ini|>ort.iiit
With
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS, COLONIES.
101
With respect to the discontinuance of the military chests, my Loids are not only of Tr»a»urv Letter
opinion (as they have already stated in former communications), that the chests established respecting Comiuis-
at the out-stations, including that at Paramatta, are unnecessary, but they also think laris* Arraoge-
that a very beneficial chani:e may be made in the present system of carrying on the pecu- ipenta.
niary concerns of the commissariat at Sydney, by transferring the funds now kept in the __— _
military chests to the two banks eslabli«lied ihere, and by employing these banks in the
receipt and payment of commissariat monies. The statement given in Lieutenant-genii-al
Parting's letter of the 26th July 1831, addressed to Lord Goderich, and which his Lord-
ship has communicated to this lioard, of the constitution and resource^) of these banking
establishments, aupears to my Lords to be sufficiently satisfactory to warrant them in con-
sidering that the oalances of public money would be quite secure in their custody, and the
proposed change would not only be productive of a considerable reduction in the number
of persons now engaged exclusively in the duties of the military chest, but would diminish
the risk of loss to which the deposit of large sums in charge of individuals is always liable,
and would operate as a useful check upon the commissariat accounts by a comparison of
the bank accounts with those of the public accountant.
My Lords are therefore pleased to desire you will proceed to carry the measures pro-
posed into effect as quickly as possible, by entering into the necessary communications
with the managing directors of the said banks upon the subject, and by directing the
deputy commissary-general, as soon as the preliminary arrangements shall have n°en
settled, to pay into the banks to an account to be opened in his name, all the monies
remaining in his chests, depositing with each bank a raoiety or such other proportion of
money as may be judged to be most expedient, and taking care afterwards so to regulate
the deposits thai the proper proportions be kept up in each bank, and that the average
amount of the whole does not exceed what is required for about one month's expenditure.
When the transfer of these funds to the banks shall have taken place, my Lords are of
opinion that all commissariat payments at Sydney should be made by cheques upon the
banks to the order of the respective claimants, with the exception of those only which
are usually or most conveniently made upon pay lists, such as pay and allowances of the
staff and departments, the pay of artificers, labourers, &c. ; in which cases the cheques
should be drawn in favour of the officer of the commissariat department who may be
specially deputed, under the responsibility of the chief officer in charge, to distribute
among the parties named in the pay lists the respective sums due, care being had that
such distribution be made the same day in which the money is withdrawn for that purpose
from the bank. I'he cheques should be signed by the officer at the head of the department,
ond invariably countersigned by the officer next in rank in attendance at the commissariat
office ; those in each of the banks should be numbered in separate series, the series
to be renewed on the first day of the year. An abstract of the account with each bank,
describing the several balances, receipts and payments, signed by the cashier, should be
furnished to the commissary at the coni.lusion of each month, and be attached to the
accounts of the latter, with the view of enabling the commissioners of audit to compare
the same with the receipts and payments as they are entered in those accounts. In all
(mses where it may be practicable, the siib-accoiintants at the out-stations should be
directed to make their payments by drafts on the chief officer at Sydney, who will dis-
charge such drafts by cheques upon the banks ; and they are only to be supplied with
such small sums o*' money, withorawn for the purpose from the bank, as may be necessary
for payments which cannot be conveniently made except in cash.
VVhen the commissary has to receive money, he will furnish the party makinu; the
payment with an order to one of the banks to receive the same, rind afterwards give the
usual receipt for the amount in exchange for the 'jank's acknowledgment of tho dtpnsit;
and which acknowledgment lie will add to the 'oucher in his accounts. The sarai; rule
be observed in 'he exchange of bills on the Treasury ; the bill, however, being in this
case delivered to the purchaser in lieu of the commissary's receipt. The purchasers of the
bills wi'l of course be at liberty to make the payment into the bank either in specie or
paper-money, conformably with the ordinary practice of the banks and the general com-
mercial business of the colony ; and it may be expected that this facility will eventually
lead to some improvement in the terms in which Treasury bills have hitherto been nego-
tiated. Until, however, thnre shall appear to be a permanent prospect of an increase in
the demand for bills, so as to be likely to produce an accumulation of army funCs beyond
the amounts which it may be proper to deposit in the banks, my Lords approve of the
commissary continuing to act upon the present system of granting bills at the fixed
Ereminmof one and a half per cent.; but in tht event of such prospect presenting itself,
e must endeavour to procure a higher rate of premium by recurring to the ordinary com-
missariat mode of raising the necessary supplies of money, by advertising for tenders, and
accepting only such sums as he may require, and may be offered on the most advantageous
terms. Upon the last remaininjj point above adverted to, viz. 'he examination of tlie
sub-accounts in the oftice of the deputy commissary-general, my Lords entirely concur with
the Board of Inquiry in considering tne extent and minuteness to which that examination
has been carried by Mr. Laidley to be quite superfluous.
it may be proper that the accounts 01' ^o cxtcndet! and di-^tant a station shc-Uiu linurFgo
some revision in his office, previously to neir being delivered to the commissary of ac-
counts, by whom they are dispatched for final audit at home ; but it must be obvious that
the detailed examination which Mr. Laidley has gi'en to them, would render their subse-
quent evaminntion in the office of the commissary of accounts quite unnecessary.
My Lords are uUo ol opinion, that Mr. La.dley has acted under a misapprehension re-
473. " 3 specting
■;A^>aw«*fi*s«»i.M
102
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE
Treasury Letter
respecting Commis'
sariat Arrange-
ments.
! t .i
l« \
spccting the degree of responsibility to which he is liable a^' regards these sub-accounts.
It was not their Lordships' object in requiring tho principal accountant, at each foreign
(■tation, to attest his accounts, that he should be held responsible for the perfect accuracy
of every minute detail in the accounts, but only for his belief in their general truth and
correctness, after a due exercise of that superintendence and control over the conduct of
the officers under him, and the ofBcers of his department, which the duty of every chief
officer in the commissariat requires from him; and it is in this sense, as ray Lords believe,
that all other officers in charge at foreign stations have attested their accounts.
While, therefore, my Lords appreciaie Mr. Laidley's scruples upon this point, thay enter-
tain no doubt that when the limited object and extent of the attestation shall have been
explained to him, he will no Ioniser feel any difficulty in conforming to it, without going
through the minute process of previot>s examination, and that a very considerable reduc-
tion may thereupon take place in that branch of his office which is now exclusively
engaged in the above duty.
My Lords observe that nine persons were thus employed at the date of the report of the
Board of Inquiry ; and the Board expressed their opinion, that under certain alterations
suggested by them, that number might bo reduced to four. As, however, the additional
measures which my Lords havn now in view for the abolition of the depot of stores and of
the military chests, will greatly abridge and simplify the cash and store accounts, and
diminish labour, my Lords are of opinion, that the reduction of numbers in tlie examining
branch of Mr. Laidley's office may oe carried further than was suggested by the Board of
Inquiry, and that lor the future two efficient persons will be (luite sufficient for that duty.
At the same time, their Lordships agree in opinion with the Board of Inquiry that the pre-
sent system of examination in Mr. Laidley's office cannot safely be disjjcnsed with except
the department of accounts be in such a state of efficiency as to enable it promptly to pro-
ceed in the examination of the accounts as soon as they are delivered in, and eliectually
to prevent any of its duties from running intoarrear; and their Lordships are bound to admit
that the report of the Board of Inquiry, confirmed Ly the information they have received
from persons practically conversant with the details of the department, and their own expe-
rience of the arrears which have been accumulating since its presentestablishment was fixed
in 1830, have satisfied their minds, that with its present limited number of six officers, it is
not adequate to effect all its im])ortant objects, My Lords are therefore pleaied to give their
sanction to the appointment of two additional officers or clerks to the account department ;
and they concur with the Board of Inquiry in their suggestion that it should not be en-
cumbere<l with the examination of the weighty arrears of provision and store accounts
which have accumulated, but that its undivided attention should be directed at once to the
examination, speedy settlement and transmission of the current accounts.
With respect to those arrear accounts, embracing the provision and store transact' ins
of the period, commencing 2r,lh December 182H, and ending 24th Dectniber 1830,
although it does not appear to my Lords, considering the forms in which they are repre-
Bonted to have been made up, their great bulk, and the midliplicity of their details, that
any advantage, adequate to the expense and labour of the operation, could be expected
from a strict and regular examination of such a inass of accounts, they are still of opinion
that Miey should undergo such an examination upon the spot as would be sufficient to
asctrtain their general accuracy, and secure the public against improper charges or misap-
plication of the ptiblic property.
My Lords are of opinion, that this object will best be attained by the appointment of
a certain number of persons provisionally, who should be formed into a separate branch,
under the superintendence and directions of the officer in charge of the account department,
and whose services should be exclusively devoted to such inspection of those accounts.
My Lords feel it impossible, with the impcrltri inlornialion before them, to determine what
number of persons, or what lengili of time will be required for this duty, and they must
tlierelore leave tlitse points to be settled by you after due inquiry into the matter ; but
I am cdinuiandcd to iuqiress upon you the irnpnrtniice of selecting the most roinj)etent
persons for this business, in order that it may be dispatihid as quickly as possible, and at
the same lime of taking care that nc one be employed tliirrin who may have been person-
nlly conctirntd ni any of the transactions to which the accounts relate. 1 am also to sug-
trest, that 'he mode of remuneration to be adopted should bear a reference to the work to
be done, rather than to the time which may be consumed in performing it.
Having thus slated their views in res|)tct to the several branches of business in the com-
missaiiat at New South Wales, and the improvements which they think may be made
therein, my Lords hove only to express their hope that you will direct your early and
serious attention to the subject, and use your best endeavours to carry all the proposed
arrangements into execution with the least possible delay, reporting your proceedings from
time to time for the information of this Board.
I am, &c.
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ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS, COLONIES.
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Difference between
tliecure of Convicts
and Soldiers,
V 9;
— No. 12. —
Proportional DiFrEBENCE between the Cnre of 4,800 Convicts, and the Care of as
many Soldiers.
In reference to the (luestion of tiie Committee regarding Jie proportional diflFerence
between (he eiire »f 4,800 convicts, and the care of as many soldiers, I beg to explain, that
to conduct the duties of a convict eslahlishment, such as that at New South Wales, a
larger commissiiriat department is requisite than would be the case if the convicts were to
be entirely replaced by troops to an equal extent, because the circuinslnnces which render
expedient the present diversified and widely extended system of locating the convicts, so
as to meet the views of transportation, could not bo applicable to a military force.
The paper already submitted to the Committee will have explained that the systetn of
location is the primary cause of multiplying the commissariat duties so much in New South
Wales. It therefore remains to be shown that, even if the convicts vvere more concentrated,
those duties must still be more arduous than would be consequetit on a military force
similarly situated.
There is not any part of the duly which the commissariat have to perform for troops
that is not necessary tor the convicts "also, and that to a tnuch greater extent, the rations of
the latter being of a more varied and complicated character, while the labour and respon-
sibility of distributing and accounting for them rest more with the cointnissariat than in
the case of troops with whom there is a quartermaster and others better qualified for such
details than the convict superintendents and overseers, who are not calculated for such
service.
The same facility of check on the issue of rations does not exist as in a regiment, so that
much of the important duty of mustering convicts, and other means by which an undue
expenditure can be prevented, rests likewise with the commissariat.
The service too is far from being so regular and simple, particularly with regard to ll.e
cash transactions, for, while in the one case money is generally imprested to a responsible
officer, by whom it is disbursed and accounted for in detail; in the other case, the com-
missariat ofiicers must be charged with all this extra responsibility, an addition which, of
course, is attended with corresponding arrangements in every branch of the department.
But independently of such duties as the commissariat have to pertorm for the troops,
there are others which necessarily arise in the case of convicts ; nainelv, the receipts,
custooy and appropriation of tlie proceeds of their labour, both with regard to mechanics
and agriculturists ; the providing and supplying all stores, tools and implements necessary
to this purpose, and more especially the clothing of the convicts, a very ccmsiderable branch
in itself, the materials to a great extent being procured, made up, aiul afterwards distri-
buted under the superintendence of the commissariat.
It would he almost impossible, without a practical experiment, to state with any degree
of accuracy the ditl'crence between the expense of a commissariat establishment for con-
victs and one for an e(|Ual number of troops ; but these remarks may serve to show that
a considerable dilTereiice would exist, and that such dillereiice would greatly preponderate
in the case of convicts.
T. Archer.
Coiresponiiince
respectiiij! Kxauiii,-
ation cl Aifcar
Arrouiils.
— No. 13. —
CORKliSi'ONDKy Jt" respecting Examination of Arbp.au Accounts.
/'"' Comniiss.iriat of Accounts, Sydney, () September 1833.
llAviNfi received from the Hil'Iu Honourable the Lords Commissioners of His Majes-
ty s '1 rea»ui y a copy of the letter addressed Sy their Loi(Uliip' ;o His Exeilleiicy the Major-
general, <()iiiiiiiiii(lin^;, imdci date of ;jd December lH;j2, in which the state of the depart-
ment ol the Coinmijsarlal of Accoiiiil.', is commented upon, 1 have the honour to submit
some iniiiirks and iiifoni...tion mi the several subjects, with the view of aidin" his Excel-
leiiiy in carrying into ell.et the measures dincled by their Lordsliijis. "
My Lords huviiig given their sanction to the appointment of t«o additional odicers or
clerks to the aeconnt deparlintiit, to be employed in its perinaiieni current jiMlies ; this
has been accomplished by two de|)Uty-assistanl comuiissanes-s'eiieral beiiii: reccnllv attached
thereto. e> j
My Lords further proceed to express their desire that certain arrcar accounts of the
commissariat, embracing llie pro\ision and store iraiis.iclions for the period between
25lh Decenihcr 1828 and jjth D.ceniher iS:}0, which liave hicii left unexamined by the
account departmcii, and the original sets so sent to Liiglaiid, shouhl now und.'rgo ati
examination here by a st palate eslabluhmenl, under the superinleiideiice of the oHicer in
charge or the acconni di |iaiimciit, leaving the appointment of the iiiiinher of persons, and
mode oj remuiK ration lor ili.ir services, uiulcr various suiigeslioiis, for the d-nision of his
J'.xeellency.
I'rior to olfiring my opinion on the mode of carrying these ohiecis into eti'ect, I must
lug leave to eontess thai, aflii receipt ot their Lordsbiiis' ei.ininumcalion. ! was for some
iiiiie in doubt whether the instruction was defiiiiiive, ami ilierefoie delayed addressing his
hxccllency oil the subject. A letier receiiily reeeiv.d by me (10m their Lofi'8h>p» has,
however, reiiioV( d any douhl I might hav.- eiitcMaim d thereon.
I think niNsdt <(.riect in assuming it as (iiiile ceitain, from the tenor of the report of the
iii(|uiiy into the siati> of tli eommissaiiat olFices in S\dney, as (|ui(ted in their Lordsliiiis"
ietiti, that a very (onsiderabli; progress must have been made in the cxiiinniiinii of the
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS, COLONIES.
119
I the Care of a«
nrrenr nccoiints in qiicsiion, inasmuch as tlie extent and minuteness, and the detail of such CorresunnHence
exnniiniitiun are parliimhiriy adverted to, as also ihal the branch of the commissariat office lespeciing Kxami-
exchisively engaged in that duty consisted of nine persons. I must, tliereforc, request tiiat nation of Arrear
his Excellency will he pleased to give directions to Deputy Commissary-geiierid Laidley to Accounts.
hand over to me, with the duplicate accounts, all the proceedings, either in the nature of
observations, reports or otherwise, which have taken place in the course of that examina-
tion, as well as to give me information as to what point generally, and up to what period
the accounts iiuve been so examined. I think thai such examination may be a^ safely
relied upon as any wiiich could now be given by an office formed at this time under my
superintendence, not only because I fear I shall have much difficulty in forming an efficient
establishment for the purpose, but also because much time and labour would be saved, and
consequently expense abridged thereby.
Although L may expect that the work remaining to be done will be lessened by my
being put in possession of the information above required, I am nevertheless of opinion,
that it is very desirable tliat this long delayed business should be speedily dispatched, and
would therefore submit that four persons should be engaged for the duty. It will not be
possible for me to give his Excellency a i<crfect idea, or sound information, as to the length
of time which may be required for the performance of this duty, so much must depend
upon the nature and extent of the work already done, the state of the accounts, and finally,
what I may on inspection and due consideration think would be !>uch an examination as
shall satisfy the intentions of their Lordships and secure my own responsibility. From
experience I have found that the examination of the provision accounts ot' the station has
fully occupied the time of one steady practised clerk during four or five months, to get
throiigh oncquarter's accounts; 1 may, tliereforc, infer tha'. taking into account the less minute
examination required for the two years' arrear of provision accounts on the one hand, and
the inexperience of the persons likely to he found for the service in the other, that it must
occupy three clerks for one year on their exuminaticn, while there is also an arrear of twi*
years' dry store accounts to be examined.
As to the mode of remuneration for the services of the persons to be employed, I must
beg leave to refer his Excellency to the suggestions of my Lords on that point, having to
remark that 1 think there will be much difficulty in fixing u remuneration wiili reference to
the work done, as it might lead to an inefleciual execution of the work, nor do 1 see how
the amount of remuneration could be fixecl upon that plan.
I have, 8tc.
Captain Hunter,
Assistant Military Secretary.
(signed) William Ilat/nard,
Assistant Commissary of Accounts.
Military Secretary's Office, Sydney,
Sir, 21 Sept. 1833.
1 iiAVK the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter dated 6th instant, respecting
the examination of certain arrear accounts of the commissariat, and to request you will be
pleased to acquaint me, for the information of tlie Major-general commaiidiiig, with the
daily rale of pay usually issued here to clerks capi.tile oi' performing the v.oik now under
consideration. If it would take four such clerks one year 10 finish, some notion may be
formed of ihe loial expense to be incurred.
I have further lv> request yu will he pleased to state whether you can rccounncnd clerks
for this business, which should be undertaken without further delay.
1 have, &c.
Willia.n llayward, Esq. (signed) William Hunter,
8i,c. Sic. &c. Assistant Military Secretary.
Commissariat of Accounts, Sydney,
Sir, 3 October, 1833.
I WAS honoured in due course with your letter of the -iist September, desiring to be
acquainted, for the information of his Excellency the Major-general commanding, with the
daily rate of pav usually issued here to clerks capable of the examinalion of the accounts
lately directed by the Treasury to be examined here, as also whether I can recommend
competent clerks for this business. The first point may be satisfied by stating that the
ratesofpny established for temporary clerks in the commissariat in this command, are to
Clerks of isi class i. 170 per annum.
— 2d — 140 —
— 3d — 110 —
1 consider clerks capable of performing the duties in question fully deserving of the
hidiest ra'c of salary, but as in the pioijress of the work to be done, some of secondary
inmonaiicc, such as copyini:. &c. must occur, one clerk might be placed ou the establish-
uieiit at a lower rate of salary ; considering also that ilie employii.eiit of lhe,e persons would
be only temporary, it may be doubled whether any could be engaged at the lowest rate.
47:i-
«J4
120
APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMHTEE
} ■
i \
?Ze7ZEZn. ■ " ""'"^' '" r"' 'r°"'' ''""^'T- ' '"*^^ '^^ '"'"'"" '" «"»'«' 'hat alihongl, the Treasury
nat^n Xea • TTZ " T'^^""'"" "^ l*^" ''°'} "'«'" coMsiden.tion has been well known lee
Accounts. """' full three months I was not able to fix upon persons compclent for the duty, nor ,1 d
"■'3'. '"^••^ "."'■'■ tbeinse veg but as was unwilling to answer hastily to the point, ,„,| hei !
tlesirous of laying belore h>s Excellency the results of mature and special inquiry, I 1 ave as
mlormluioT''""'"' ^^^ communicating to you thereon until I could collect furtl.er
It n.ight have been expected that from amongst the individuals discharsed from the
couimtssarmt on the reductions of tl at department, some competent persons milume
been selected, bur some have left ...is place or have found othlr en^4ements, tt uV | '
U . '^ M "'.' \'" "' '''"'' •''*^>»T' ' '""^ fi"^'' ""'y 'subordinate situations, and ,1' e
IS but one Mr lodhunter, now offered to me, who is said to he in every way c. mpetent
ami qual.hed. but unlortunately he has other profitable en.ployn.ent, and inf.,ims Z ,
although very desirous of engaging for the service in question, he could not de "ofe I e
whole ot h.s time to it; the interruptions to which his work would be liable, and the ditK-
cul y o fixing a remuneration for the time bestowed on the duty, may probably be viewed
by his Lxcellency as impediments to his appointment. J J i j
clJ^k"j!7ST"\ I"".'''''"! '"^';i'""'='^,'° ■"« H8 competent : Mr. Paget, now commandant's
clerk at ^or^olk lsla.,d, is I understand about to leave that situation; and as he has served
for many years in the commissariat, it is to be expected that he is acquainted with the
Two other gentlemen have offered themselves, and are very respectably recommended as
and^iLm '":;";' h -''"''^T' ''l' ""r '"'" "^"r'y ""-'r'""'-' -"> commissar. tSair
"he dmy reiu'ired '^ '"" """^ *""''* ^^ '"'' ""^'y i" 'caching them
nrnVnfr "''""'^ 'T l^'" ^"''1'^"''!'^ ''''■">''' '''at his Excellencv may be made aware of the
probable expense o the establishment, and the .lifiiculties likely to be experienced in (Vl-
Si2ut"':'"'V'"'""'""'^ "'■ ^'"-' '^'""''"y- '"' ^'^t'--«' intl.eirlet,rr;Ls"ecii.tie
i.t^p nance ot seleeli.ig competent persons tor the business. It is quite clear, that totorm
due. led by a lespoiiMble and practised head, and one ■.vh„ could with pruden.-e and ludii-
uient conduct such an exaimnalion as is desired by their Lordships, lor I think it wcmid not
be possib.e lor me to give it that htling atleiuioi. in those particulars which it would
requ„,v^o,„„|,,„,^ ,h..,,,,vy duties of my present olliee, « hull their Lordsliips were awa e
of wlRi, they sanctioned an increase to the department, considering also that the new office
Usel must be remote lo.n im, as Here is no room in my olhce for its aeeomniodation.
I have 10 add, .hat I now learn that the aeeo.inis under view are much more voluminous
han i had contemplated 1,1 tunning my eM.maie of the time it might take to exam., c
ti.eni, and it appears likely that the examination would require t8 montt.s «^^""""'-
Captain Iluiiier,
Assistant Military Secretary.
I have, &c.
(signed) h'i/liam Haijward,
Assistant Commissary of Accounts.
„ Commissariat of Accounts, Sydney, New South Wales.
®"^' December 1833.
Ai.vERTiNo to your letter to n,e. of 24 December 1832, with its enclosure dated
.1 Deccnber, .0 .he oflicer commanding i., this colony, and w.,h respect to t'hen-
s.ruc.ions there,,, given for the formation of an establishment for .he exa , im.,i„ f , "-
am provision and s.orc accounts ot the con.inissaiiat, 1 have the honour to inC, r vou
hat this subject has en^-aged ,„y serious a..entio„, ami i.i consequence of the diU e It r
I ...av in tnith say. the n.tei imprac.icabili.y hitherto experience.! in forming any fit
es a. ishmeiit .r -he purpose. I an. induced now to rep.'.rt. for the informatio'n <,l^i,e
Kigh lono.irabl.. ,h,. I.or.ls Coinmissioners ..fllis Majesty's Treasury, the steps that have
been taken towards the furtherance of this ol.iect. '
The enclosed .■opies of my letters to the Military Secretary of 6 Septen.ber an.l -x October
..'; and'.'in ,''"b r'l'' "■'"""-■'-' '"' ,- """-"'"R " •"•^^•-l "f "-■'I.e.. stale of'the £1-
n.ss, and of the obstacles ex , ing to the formation of the branch olliee; nothing has since
o.c„ried to remove or .hminish those obstacles, altlu.ugh I have .nade ..Vergil., Z am
.nno.in.,.e,l my rea. nu-ss ,0 receive applications. The^chi..f .liffieiih,,. eonsL ,!. holding
usn.s Mich as hrving so.ne experi..|,ce in accounts of the nature under view, could
1, n '■,'1 V"">""'"' '" ! "■"■ fxaminaiion; for I think that a gi.-at waste of time, nii.l
t n. uen.ly ot .»..„..>•, would ensu.; from .he .mployment of persons totally unacq.iainte.l
1. . 1 r ','"'. . ^•"'■""'-^''f.-'t •-.'•■.ir^ and accounts, who must first he instructed ... the
duty without which no reliance couhl be plae.d on their ex-cniion ..f H,.. »,.rU- v.., „,v
Lords obje(;i to the en.ployme.i. of any one who may have been personally co..cJn.ed iii
any ot the ira.isac. ions to which the aeeoiai.sr..'late.
I now, however, learn that D.puly C.m.inissary-gcncial Luidl.'v has it 11. .onlen.pla.ion
10 make.ome reducl.on ,a anangenicls in his liepa.l.i.ent about the close of the ye,., ,
.1,,<
rEE
ON MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS, COLONIES.
131
igl) the Treasury
well known lieic
e duty, nor did
|ioiiil, luid heiiij;
quiry, I liavf, as
I collect turtlier
liarged from the
sns might have
ents, though Ijy
ilions, and there
way competent
informs me that
1 not devote the
e, and the ditH-
jubly be viewed
I commandant's
3 he has served
lainted with the
, nor what may
?com mended as
nissariat ufl'air!)
I teaching theiii
le aware of the
erienced in ful-
r respecting the
ir, that to form
formed of com-
ietail should he
encc and judg-
ik it iviiuld not
iiich it would
lips were aware
the new olliec
imodation.
jre voluminous
ike to exam i tie
card,
)f Accounts.
South Wales,
L'losure, dalfd
ct to the in-
itiation of eer-
inform vou
ie dirticulties,
rilling any fit
mation ol the
eps that have
nid 3 October
' of the busi-
lint; has since
1 inquiry, and
St in linding
•r view, could
; of time, and
unacquainted
:riiKted in the
ork ■ yet my
concerned in
this may probably furnish an opportunity of engaging some competent persons, or at least Correspondence
some one capable of directing the routine and detail of the duties ; I will have the honour respecting I'^xanii-
to report further hereupon at the earliest period. nation of Arrenr
I have, 8cc.
The Secretary to the Uiglit lion, the (signed) William Uaijward,
Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury. Assistant Commissary of Accounts.
Accounts.
Comnissariat of Accounts, Sydney, New Sonih Wales,
Sir, '2'2 March 1834.
I HAD tlie honour to address you on die 6tli December last, by letter, on the sub-
ject of tlic formation of an olfice for the examination of the arrcar accounts of the
commissariat at this station, ami stated that Deputy Cnminissary-iiencrul Laidlcy had it
then in contemplation to make sniiie reductions in his department; those reductions being
about to be carried inlo cftVcl, I found that I could make the selection of Deputy-assist-
ant Commissaiy-ge .ral iJaldy only for the service proposed, and accordingly applied to
his Excellency the Major-general eoininanding for his sanction to the tiansferot the pre-
sent services of Mr. Halily from the 1st instant, from which day Mr. Laidlcy consented to
dispense with him. Having obtained his Excellency's approval lo this measure, I have
appointed Mr. Baldy 10 the examination of the completed sets of the dry store accounts
rendered by Deputy-assistant Commissary-general Kennedy, which is all that can now be
undertaken.
Coiisideiiug that the instructions of the Higlii honourable the Lords Commissioners of
His Majcstv's Treasury resi)ccting the formation of an otfiec for the examination of arrear
accounts were received by iiic so long ago as June of last year, and that I have hitherto
found it to be (juite impossible to form such an ollice in "this place, nolwitlislanding my
best endeavours and the great aii.\icty this business has given me, I feel it to be my (July
frankly to say, that I have no hope of being able lo cany their Lordships' instructions
into full effect, by the formation of an office for the cxaininalion of the provision accounts,
and I beg leave to assure you that 1 feel most sensibly this disappointment of their Lord
ships' view.s and expectations.
I have, !k.c.
(signed) William Haytvard,
The Secretary lo the Uiglit ILni. the Assis* Com.-gen' of Accounts.
Lords Comuiissioners of His Majesty's Treasury.
— Nell.—
EXTRACTS of a MtNtiE of the Commissioniuis for Auditing the Public
Accounts, dated y April 1835.
" Toe Board are saiistied on an inspection of the statement now before them, aiui with
reference to Mr. Smith's remarks, that the examiners of store and provision accounts can-
not proceed with the current aeeounls, and at the same time bring up the arrears upon
whieli they are now engaged ; and the Board deeming it highly iniporlanl thai the exami-
nation of the current accounts should not be delayed,
" Ordered,
" Tiiai the examiners do immediately proceed on the accounts of the Ionian Islands,
Gibraltar, Western Australia, Windward and Leeward Islands, Honduras, Siena Leone,
Gambia, Canada, Nova Scotia, iNewfoundland, Bermuda, Mauritius and Cape of Good
Hope, fiotu 1 April iS.u; on the New South Wales accounts from 1st Aprd '.833.
" And it appearing that the Van Diemen's Land accounts for 1833 and 1834, arc not
yet received,
" Ofdered, ,. , . . ,.
" That a letter l)e written to the conimi^sary in charge, calling his immediate attention
to the dtlay.
" The Boa'-d for the present suspend siviug any directions as to the examination of the
accounts of \'an Diemen's Laud for the ^period to the iist December iSsi, and also as to
the accounts of the Uideau Canal, and the Jamaica candle iiccount.
" In ease the examiners engaged in these several accounts for current services should be
jible to spare time for t-lie arrear accounts, they are lo proceed upon them as opportunities
may occur; and the Board further diiecl, that on the isi November next, a statement be
prepared and submitted to the Board, shi„ing the progress made in the examination of
the current accounts as to each station, with a view of enabling the 15oatd to ascertain
whether the examiiialioii of the accounts fur half a year has been completed within the
hal! year,"
Audit ol' Public
Accounts.
I
onteinplauon
of the yen ,
tlll.4
473-
Sl'ATEMENT
132
APPENDIX TO REPORT FHOM SELECT COMMITTEE
Audit (,!' Public
Accumitji.
Statement relative to the Receipt and Aiidit of the Cash Accounts of the Commissariat in
Australia, Van Diemcn's Land and Canada, for the Years 183a and 1833.
COLONY.
New South Wales
V»83i.)
Ditto
(1 Jan. 1833 to 31
iVInrch 1834.)
Van Diemen'8 Land
(1832.)
Ditto
(1 Jan. 1833 to 31
March 1834.)
WrsTKUK AVSTRALIA,
(1 Feb. 183J to 31
Rlarcli 1833.)
Ditto
I One year to 31 Mar.
' J8340
L'pPF.n AND LoWKK
Canada
(i83'^-33.)
Ditto
(One year, to 31 Mar.
i«34-)
Dull- ufDciivtTj DateorDelivery
or of
AuiiuhI Account. Moutlily Accoiinti
ii June 1833 At diften'iit
ptriods be-
tuecii 1 Jan.
and 5 Oft.
1833-
ic May and I 21^) Jan. and
7 Nov. 1834 ; 11 Dee. 1834
UAIE
of
A u u I r.
■J 8 April 1835
4 July 1833
1 April and
8 Oct. 1833.
7 .June and 25 February
(i Oct. 1834. and 30 iSrpt.
1834.
FIUST ACCOVNl.
if) May 1833
10 July 1834.
lo.luly 1834,
and 13 Oct.
1834.
8 A]iril and
15 October
183;!.
■i July 1834
1 Jan. and
7 Nov. 1833.
7 Nov. 1833,
and 3u Sept,
1834.
•2 0ct. 183J,
and 3 Dec.
1833-
3 .Inn. 1834,
and 1 Oct.
1834-
iCt Nov. 1 834
UKMAIIKS.
- - Examination conipleteii in
April 183,5. (Queries sent be-
tween Auj^nst 1834 and May
1835, none of wliieli are an-
sHercd.
- - Examination completed in
January 1834. Answers to
(jueries received (1 July 1835.
Ready for audit.
- - Examination conipleled in
February 1035. (Jueries sent
between Au;{ust 1834 and
March 1835, the greater part
of H hich remain unanswered.
- - Examination completed in
March 1834. -Answers to que-
ries received in June iHsn-
Account preparing; for audit.
- - I'.xamination comi)leted in
April 1835. Queries sent be-
tween .luiie 1834 and April
1 83,"i, the greater pari of w hicli
remain ummswered.
- - Kxnmination completed on
2;7 May 183,5. Queries settled
undready liiraecountaiit. .State
of account nearly reaiiv for
audit, it not beinj; nece"ssary
to await tlu-answirs 10 (jue'-
ries.
Statk.miat relative to the ;!teei|)t and .Auilit of the Store Accounts of the Commissarial
in Australia, Van Diemen's Land and Canada, for the Years 183J and 1833.
CO 1.(1 \ \ i
PKRion OK ACCOUNT. I
New South Wai.is -
(1 Jan. 1832 to 31
March 1833.) i
Ditto - - - I
(1 April 1833 to 28 I
Fehrniuy 1834.) I
Dm,- oi i)i'liMr,v..f il.i-
i(.vii;il i'triinliciil, 01
thnr Mciiillily I'roiUion
niiii blore Accounts.
- - At various periods,
from i,t February to
3 Scptemher 1834.
- - At various periods,
fr(nn 10 Nov. 1834
to 'i4 June 183.5.
Vav PiFHi s'r- Lam-, - - At variuu'! periods,
(1 .lim. to 31 Dec ' from 20 .\lav 1833
l8,j3.) ' to 1(1 June 1H34.
DA 1 1:
of
A I' 1) I T.
It i; M A li K ^.
- - Examination suspended, agree-
\ble to Minute of the lioard. daled
9 '^l""i' '83.5
- - Those from 1 .April to 30 ,Sept.
1833, under exann'nation.
• • Examination suspended, ;:;;ree-
able to .Minute of the lioard, dated
<J April 183.5
smmmmmmm
ON MILITARY KSTABLISHMKNTS, COLONIES.
123
I Ol-UN V
nnd
FKRIOI) OK ACCOUNr,
Van DrKMKN'i) Land,
(I Jnn. to 31 Dec.
1833)
Westeun ArsTKAi.i.v,
(1 I'Vbrimry 1832 to
;ii Muri'li 1833.)
UiUo
fi April 1833 to 31
March 1834.)
Ditto
{\ .April to 31 Dec.
1834.)
Upper and L(i\vek
Can.mia
(1 .Ian. to 31 Dec.
1832.)
Ditto
i^\ ,!anii;iry 1833 to
31 Murcli 1834.)
Dale ot Delivery of the
several I'erimlical, or
Three Monthly I'ruvuion
ami Store Account*.
PATE
of
A t U I T.
Not ony a» yet received
• - yV I various pcrioils,
from 3 Sept. 1832 to
l(i November 1833.
- - At various periods,
from lit Nov. 1833
to li Dec. 1834.
- - At various periods,
from 12 Dec. 1834
to ^3 June 1835.
■ - At various periods,
from J;-, ,hily 1832 to
24 July 1833.
- - At various periods,
from ^8 Aug. 1833
to li Aug. 1834.
31 January
i83j.
Audit of Public
Accounts. ^
RKMARK8.
- - Directed to be applied for by
Minute of the Board, dated y Aprd
1835.
- - Kxamination suspended, agree-
able to Minute of the Uourd, dated
9 .\pril 1835.
- - Those from 1 April to 30 Sept.
1834, will forthwith be taken up
for examination.
- - Those from i January to 31
Dec. 1833 have been examined,
but furtlicr proceedings suspended,
agreeable to Minute of liie Hoard,
dated 9 April iSjj.
INOr.X.
[ 195 ?
INDEX.
ANALYSIS OF INDEX.
LIST of the PniNcipAi. HBAniNcg contnined in tlie following Index, witli the Page
of tli« Inilex at which ihey will be respectively found.
AcCOVNTfl : P'S'
I. (ienerally ...-...-. ••127
'2. In Canada - .-----.-..127
:l. In \ew South Waks ......... 127
4. Paper laid befun the Committee - - - - - - -127
Barracks:
1. Bermuda . - - - - - - • - - -138
2. Canada ............ 128
3. Netv South hales .......... i<iS
Citadels ......130
C/17/, Dk1MKT.ME.VT:
1. Generallii • - - - - - - - - - -130
2. Canada -..----.-...130
U. ^Newfoundland ... ........130
4. New South Wales - - - . . . - - - -130
a. Nova Scotia ......... -.130
CoMMISS.lltlAT Df.part.vest :
I. Geneial/j/ - - - - - - - . . - -130
•i. Ikrmnda ........... 131
;l. Canada -----..-.--. 131
I. \i'H' South Wales 131
5. .Vor« Scotia - - - - • - - - - - -131
tt. ^'au Diemen's Land ---------- 131
7. i'apen laid before the Committee - - . - - - -132
CoNsoLiDATiity or Offices ......... 134
CONTUAITS:
1. (iiuera/ti/ ........... 132
2. Canada - - .......... \-^-2
3. Sew South Wales - . « • . - - - - -13'2
4. Van Diemen's Land - • - - - - - - - -132
t'OMICTS:
1. Ikmiuda ■"". '3-
2. Sew South Wales and Van Diemen's J^nd • - - - -132,133
:i. Papers laid before the Committee 133
Emkiuasts 133
Excise Offhers 133
CiAUHisoss ---------.--- 134
GoyERNuRS 134
House of Assemrlv .... 136
ISUIAN DePARTMEST I36
MlLlTARV StaTIOSS I38
Militia :
1. Canada .-- ----..---138
2. Sew South Wales 13**
3. Nova Scotia 138
R3
' « i >i»i'Hii|«ijiiii» i
[195 1
I'.ge.
Saw Soi'Tii n ii.r.s 138
OiiDs.isri, /)/./•.( nn/Bwr •
I. lUriiiHiln 139
a. I'lllllllla -•-•---- ... Ijy
:i. Ntw Stiiilh Wiilf) 139
PHOtlSIONS:
I. CoHiida 139
i, iVVic .S'oh'/i Wiilfs - - - - - - . . - -140
:i. Vim IhciHiUs I^iimI -•---.-.-- 140
Ratios /I .•
1. Vnmtila -- .... ......140
2. Ni'M' South Wulen .... ......140
a. Nova Scotia 140
Redvctioss 140
Rest of Thooi's --140
Revenve:
1. Geuemllif ..-.-....•.140
2. CiiiKiila ---. -- ......140
a. Scir Sdulh Wak's and Van Diemen's l>and •....- 140
4. Sova Scotia • • • • • • - - - - ->4o
Staff:
1, Ihrmuda ..----.-.-- 141
2. Ciimtdii --..-.---.•- 141
», Sfwi'oundlaiid - • • - - - - - - - -141
4. A'ci/' Saiit/i links ..---.-..-141
6. Sova Sailiit - • - • • • • - • - -141
Troops:
1. AmtraUnn Provinces ......... 14.2
2. licriniida ........... 14a
a. ditiiiida ---------.--14^
4. VeyUm - - - - - - - - - - - -14a
5, Nfw liriinsxrick - - - - - - - - - -14'J
0. Sewfiiiindliiiid --.-. ......14a
7. N(io Soiilli ll'ahs - - 142
8. Void Siutiii . - . ■ ..... ..14IJ
1». Villi Diemcn'i Land - - - - - - - - - -143
1(». I'liprrs /iiid tnj'ure the Committee - - - - - - ->43
Van DiEMi^s's Land 143
Works, Pvblic:
\. Ilermudn ..... .. ....i.|'^
•1. Ciiiiiidii - - - - - - - - - - -144
a. Sew Jiniii'iwirk • - - . . - - - - -144
t. -Vcif Suiilh Witii-s ..... ..-.144
[ U7 ]
INDEX.
If.Ii.-ln the following Index tho Figurfs lullowinu the Name» rcl'sr tu tlis Qaottion* ot the Lvidence ;
unci ///7>. p. to llio I'iigo of tlic Appondix.
ACCOUSTS:
1. Gemriilli/,
2. Ill Caiuvlii
A.
!). /// Ncui .S'o»</i Walet.
4. Papers laid lie/ore the Committee,
J . (Jawrallif :
AcL'oiinis of ilif (•omiuissttrint mucli more numcroiia and compliciiletl where the troops
lire rmii'li tlisperiiiil. Archer 8i;}.
2. Ill Canada :
Stiileinciit, Bliowinn the iimiincr the vnrioun accounts oF the commissariat are kept,
I'xnmincd nnil aiidititl ill ihi! Canada*, witli explanations as lo each item, AirliaHl^-
Hi 1. Hi 7, p. ()3-()fi Number of ii(-r^iJiis<Mn|)li)yt3d in the coininissariat is caused by the
aceouuLs' bein.^ so voluminous, kanpl 71H. 753 Simiiiifyiiig the mode of keeping
neeouiiis in tlic ordnance and eonunissariat departments would materially lessen the ex-
pense, (ireig 1117-1119.
3. Sew Smith Wales :
Stutenieni relative to the cause of the vast arrear of accounts connected with the eoin-
missariat in New South Walei, and nature of the directions given tor their examination,
Archer ti-ii-HiH. 88l-HH^, Darliw^ 7,-,.
4. Papers laid he/ore the Committee :
Siatement relalive to llie receipt and audit of the c:isli and store accounts of the
couimi.sariat for i^i and iH;};}: In Canada, App. p. I'Ji, 123-1" New South U ales,
App. p. vli—lii Van Dienien's Land, App. p. 123, 123— In Western Australia, App.
,/{..„ 121 Corirspondence respecting tlie examination of arrear accounts in ^ew
South Wales App. p. l lH-1-1 Lxliaets cd' a minute of tlieComniHsioneis tor auditing
the public aee(mnts relalive 10 llie examinatio.i of aceouiils from the several colonies,
/Ipi,, y,. 121 Her also Gimmifsariat Department, 3. Commmaiy Cieiieral.
Aide-de-Camp. Number Lord Aylmer is entitled to as commander of the forces in Canada,
Kempt 701.
Airei/, Major. !.eiler Iroin Commissar.v-general Ronlh to Major Airey, military sccreiuiy
at" Quebec, respecting ihc coniuiissariat <lepaitmeiii in Caimda, Archer 7(17, p. :p.
America, North. See Colonial Corps.
Amheistherir. Si^e Coinmissariat Depaiiineiit, 3. Troopn, 3.
Anapolis. Highly desirable ihat^ it should be oc(>upied as a military station. Broke 345,
Kempt 747, 74«. '*>>'>^ a'*" 'i'roops, 8.
Archer Thomas. (Analysis of his (■vidcnee.)— Extent of the reduction in the commissariat
deimil.nent in New South Wales, and amount of saving thereby, 234-23!) Staleinent,
sm'eifyiii-- ihe variety of duties perfovn.ed l)v llie cominissanat, 240. p. 19, ■20---I ay-
meut.of'the coiiiinis,aiiat a.v principally etVeeted tbmiigh the ineduim ot banks, 241,
24^ Kxtraet of a loiter lo ihe Seeretarv of the 'I reasury by Major-general Honike,
r.Titiv.. to ivduein- the commiss.iriat m New Soulli Wales, /.. 20, 21--- (.real nieon-
venienee arixs from the failure of the contractor!* in the colonies 24t>, ^47 1 aiti-
culars ,esi)eelin!; the arduous dutv of ilie lioups in New houth U ale., 240-252
Orihiance depariniint is julfilled bv llu' eominissarial as regards pubhe works. 2;-,3-:i5.
Convicts reiiuire more attention from the eoinmissariat than troops, 2;,7-2()i ——Arti-
cles for ihe use of convicts in New South Wales will be tor the futuiv supplied in thai
,.„l„„y ot5" Commissariat lias no control over the convict service, 2f)3 — All money
neee^sarv for the convict service is supplied through the cominKsariat, 204 t^oininis-
s iritt in'New South Wales is reduced as low as it can be lo be elleetive, 2I.5 hxpensi
;;,■ nuiintainiiig the convicts in 1S33, 26li Proposed distribution and appiopriation
of the commissariat deparln.enl for the year 1834. /'. 23, 24--N.iinber ol persons
employed m tiie eoiiiiiii»,aiiat lioin l8;3 and uiiivards, 271 -—-• 'piiiMm ^'-iril'^'^^'f?,;^.;;;;;
issariai in Van Dienien's Land, •.'"" ^ "
dueiion of ll
had 11 tendency lo increase rather than (liinini.-.h, 277-
473'
11
Auiount of th.; expenses ol the
conuuisiariat
128
ARC
BAT [Military Establishment,
Arcfur, Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence)— eo/itmiurf.
commissariat in Canada and Nova Scotia, and cause of so wide a iliffeienc 764-766.
802-804 Letter from the Commissary-general Rotith to Major Airey relative to the
commissariat establishment in Canada, 767, p. 56 Number of troons at Quebec;
extent of the coramiisariat establishment at Quebec, and cause of its being so large,
y68 Amount of salary paid a deputy-assistant commissary-generiil nt Quebec, 769
Commissariat establishment of Quebec extends to the whole proviii of Canada, 771
Paying detached pensioners greatly increases the duties of the commissariat depart-
ment in Canada, 772-781. 792 Reason the commissariat department in Canada
could not be dispensed with, and the troops provisioned by the quarter-master of the
regiment, 782.
Commissariat in Canada has been reduced as much as might be expected, 783
Number of officers attached to the commissariat in Nova Scotia, 784 -Large body of
officers necessary for the performance of the duties of the commissariat in Nova Scotia
from the great distance of ilie respective posts, 785-789 Manner of making payments
in Canada where only one officer of the commissariat is attached to a post, 791 |-A11
rations in Canada are provided by public contract, 793-705 Situations of the various
depoti in Canada, and nature of ihe stores kept therein, '796, 797— — Statement of the
remiiiiis in store of provisions, forage and fuel at the several stations in the Canadas, 796.
p. 60, 61 No provisions sent to the Cunadas from England, 799 Nature of the
various duties performed by the commissariat in the Canadas, Sot.
Number of troops and extent of the commis^^ariat at Amherstberg and Penetan-
"■uishine, 805-808 Number of troops and extent of the commissariat in Newfoundland,
and cause of the commissariat in the Canadas being so large, 81 1 Commissary-general
responsible for all the commissariat accounts in the Canadas, 814 Forms used in keep-
ing the commissariat accounts in the Canadas very numerous, 815-817 Siatenient ot
the manner the various accounts of the commissariat are kept, with explanations as to
each item, 817, p. 63-65 Manner troops in the Canadas are supplied with pro-
visions, 818 Manner the various accounts of the commissariat are examined and
audited, 819-821 Manner the commissariat accounts are kept in New South Wales,
and cause of their being in arrear, 822-838. S81-884 Extent of the governor's autho-
rity over the commissariat in New Soiith Wales, 828-838 In Nova Scotia, 839-845
. Direct communication constantly kept up between the commissariat in New South
Wales and the Treasury Board, 846.
Cause of the reduction in tho commissariat in New South Wales, 847-849 Effect
of the system of contracting for provisions in New South Wales, 851-859. 871-880
Situation of the various depor. onnected with the commissariat in New South Wales,
861 No provisions sent out i.j New South Wales from England, 862 Extent of
the commissariats connexion with the public buildings in New South Wales, 8C3-865
All contracts for the supply of troops in England are made by the Board of Ordnance,
866. 870 Great uncertainly as to the performance of contracts in Now South Wales,
886 State of the commissariat department in Van Dieraen's Land, 889-894.
Arrear Accounts. See Accounts.
Assembli/. See House of Assembli/,
Assistant Surgeon. Opinion as to the necessity of maintaining a staff assistant-iurgeon at
Bermuda, Smelt 528-531, Turner 489-498.
Australian Colonies. See Accounts, 4. Conlracts, 4. Emigrants. Penal Settlements.
Troops, I.
Ali/mer, Lord. Sec Aide-de-Camp.
B.
Banks. See Commissariat Department, 4. 7, Government Funds.
Barracks:
1. liermudu.
i. Canada.
3. New South Wales.
1 . liermudu :
The barracks at Bermuda are very extensive, and the duties of the ordnance officers very
laborious, Smelt 548-551.
2. Canada :
Opinion that wen; the public departments consolidated at the several stations in
Canada the barrack department would be unnecessary, Greig iioti. 1142, 1143.
3. New South Wall's :
Varticwhti resppctisiir the bad management of the barrnck department in New South
Wales, Smuth i^o-i^t). 160 Barrack department would be much improved if trans-
ferred to the ordnance, Smyth 168.
Bateau Establishment. Extent thereof in the CaDadas, Archer 809.
Batliurst.
.bliahment,
. 764-766.
itive to ilie
at Quebec;
ng 80 large,
3uebee, 769
Canada, 771
ariut (lepurt-
t ill Canada
raster of the
ed, 783
arge body of
Nova Scotia
ng payments
791 -Ail
if the various
•ment of the
Panadas, 796.
fatiire of tiie
nd Penetan-
swfoundland,
ssary-general
ised in keep-
Stalenieut of
nations as to
?d witli pro-
xainined and
South Wales,
L'rnor's autho-
itia, 839-845
n New South
40 Effect
871-880
South Wales,
Extent of
863- 8G5
of Ordnance,
South Wales,
•894.
nt-surgeon at
it Settlements.
;e ofticers very
al stations in
, U43.
in New South
iroved if trans-
Jiathunt.
Colonies; 1835.]
BAT
CAN
12Q
the troops at Bermuda on the ist January 1835, App, p. 97.
itiiig thereto — see also Assistant Surgeon. Barracks, 1. Boats.
Balhursl. See Pensiunurs.
Bermuda. Distribution of
For other nialters relatiii., „ . . . . .
Civil Expenditure. Commissariat Department, 2. Convicts, l. Divine Service.
Governors. Ordnance Department, 1. Parliamentary Grants. Phillips, Mr.
Population. Reductions. Revenue, I. Si'tnal Stations. Spirits. Staff) i.
Store-keeper. Tank-keeper. Troops, 2. \o. frorfa. Public, 1.
Blundford. Is a station in Upper Canada where the commissariat distribute presents to
the native Indian tribes, Greig 927-962.
Boats. Necessity for the garrison boats at Bermuda, and purposes for which used, Sme/f
534. 535. Turner 499-504 Purposes the boat and boat's crew is used for in the
Canadas, Kempt 717 Boats and boats' crews necessary for the harbour posts at Nova
Scotia, Broke 336.
Body-guard. See Governor's Body-guard.
Bonham, Francis Robert, m.p. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Particulars respecting the
salary piiii! to Mr. Phillip's the store-keeper at Bermuda, 3S3, 584.
Boundary Qiiestiun. Inhabitants of the State of Maine have shown a disposition to make
inroads into the disputed territory of Canada, and opinion that a force should be kept
up suflicitnt to repel them, Kempt 642. See also Iroops, 3. 5. 8.
Bnurke, Major-Cieneral. E.\tract of a letter to the Secretary of the Treasury by Major-
general Bomkc, relative to reducing the commissariat in New South Wales, Archer,
p. 20, 21.
Bread. Opinion the present method of contracting for bread by the coniiiiissariat at
■^ork is bad, and suggestions lor its improvement, Greig 1083.
Brigade-Majors. Number thereof in Canada, Greig 1 138-1 140.
Broke, Lieutenant-colonel Horatio George. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— On the staff in
Nova Scotia, 321 Military establishment not capable of any reduction in Nova
Scotia, •3:27, 34' i (ircal inconvenience arose from the removal of u regiment from
Nova Scotia to llie West Indies, 330 Number of regiments in Nova Scotia and its
dependencies, 334 Militaiv staff not ea|.able of any funlitr reduction, 335 Boats
and boats' crews necessary for the harbour posts, 336-
at the (lepailiire of the regiment for India, 338-344-
-Posls that were discontinued
-Highly desirable that Aiiapolis
should be occupied as a inilitary station, 345 Observations respecting the militia in
Nova Scotia, 350, 3,51. 355-38i Number of troops on the American frontier, 35a-
'^54 Militia force is popular in Nova Scotia, 355.
" Mistaken ideas entertainad by emigrants of what they are to find, 361, 362
Opinion 'especiing emigrants enlisting in the militia, 362. 372. 378. 383 Very few
King's troops eiiiployed'in civil duties, 382 Manner of supporting and dispo^ing of
unemployed emigrants, 384-387 Emigrants would desert trom the militia imme-
diately iipon Hnding emplovment, 387, 388 Colonial corps would be nuuli more
e.\prnsiye than British soldiers, 390 Opinion as to raising a corps in Ireland for the
service of Nova Scotia, 393 Period at which regimenis of the line are relieved in
Nova Scotia, 396 ciuss of persons appointed to the coiimiissariat in Nova Scotia,
401.
Bnian, \Villiam. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Troops all supplied by contract in Van
Diemen's Land and Australia, 1031 Nature of the provisions supplied, and manner
the eonlraets are made, 1032-1038 Resources of New South Wales capable of sup-
plvini; the troops with all necessaries reiimred for thcin, 1040 Great loss occasioned
to'the public from the commissariat of Van Uiemen's Land neglecting to lay in a proper
store of grain, 1040, 1041.
Burke, Colonel Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Commanding officer in Newfoutid-
land, 56C-068 Number of troops necessary for the duty in Ncwtoundlaiid, 569-574
Opinion respecting any reductions in the staff, ,575-J*^'-'
C.
Canada. E.xient of the Canadian frontier bordering on the United States, Hay 570
Distribution of the troops scrying in Canada on the 1st January 1835, App. p. 98.
For other nrfliers relating thereto— sec also ./IrniuH^i, 2. Aide-de-Camp. Bateau
listablishmnt. Barracks, 2. Boats. Boundary Question. Brigade- Majors.
Chap/aim. Citadels. Civil Department, 1. Colonial Corps. Comiiitsstrial
Dewutfent, 3. Commissary-General. Consolidatioii of (Mces. Contracts,^.
Depots. lie Salahery, Colonel. Emigrants. J-:iigiHecr Department. Excise
()-/,.,.,.„ Ermids. Glials. C-overnor!, Hou^e of Assemhlu. Indian Department.
Medical Stat}'. Mitilan/ Co,>imissioners. Military .Secretary. Mitilia, 1.
isioners. Povulution. Presents. Provisions
( )rdna
Rati
Department, -2. * — - ,
1. Reductions. Reienue, l.i. Salaries. Sclioots. .Stall, '2. Itkgraphs.
put
Troops, 3. 10. Works, Public, 2.
473-
Cash
130
CAS
C O M [Military Establisliment,
tu
Cdf/i AccontiU. Sff AcaiHiii-.
Cei/loii. S'c Troops, 4.
Chapltiiiis. Opinion rcspccliiig ilie reduction of clergymen in Ireland island, 7'unR'r 4(';6-
472. 477-4H1S Number of eliajilains to tiie forces in Canada, and aniouiu of llieir
salaries, Keiiipt 705-7 lu Notliing to prevent the elergyinen at the ditfereiit stations
in Canada pert'orinin<r the dnlies of chaplain, Grcig 1137.
Chapman, Henri/. (Analysis of liis Evidence.) — Resources of Canada so great as to
stand little in need of a commissariat establishment, 1002 Nature of the duties of tlie
commissariat, 1004-1000— — Coiiimissariat of Canada quite competent to the distribution
of presents to 1 he Indian tribes, without the assistance of the Indian depirtment, 1006
Indian department have no other duties to perl'orm beyond the distribution of pre-
sents to the native tiibes, 1007-10^9 Supply of provisions to the Indian tribes by the
commissariat very sek.om made, 1010 Nature of the presents made through ihe com-
missarial to the Indian tribes in Canada, 1013-1017 Indiati presents all bartered
away bv the natives for drink, 1021-1022 Sum expended in maintaining the Indian
deiiartment in Canada is quite unnecessary'; 1024-1020.
Ckadiih. Amount of money required to keep up the citadel at Halifax, Hay 196 Citadel
of Quebec is of the greatest importance to Canada, and therefore retpiires tlie best of
troops for its protection, Kempt 633.639. 0;)2. 763 Opinion as to the time the citadel of
Quebec might be maintained against an invading army from the United States, Kempt
7O0-7O3.
CniL Departmi:\t:
1. Geiieralli/. 4. New South Wales.
2. Canada. 5. Nova Scotia.
3. Aeufonnd/and.
1 . Gcneralli/ :
Opinion as to the elileiency of military officers lur civil duties. Darling 86. ioj-109.
•2 . Canada :
.Military in Canada do not perform civil offices or act as police. Kempt 654-658.
O70.
.1. Aeirfoundland :
Observations relative to the civil establishment of Newfoundland being provided lor out
of the Colonial funds, //«;/ 422-424.
•1. New South Wales :
Amount of extra pay allowed Captain Smyth, in a civil capacity at Port Macquaric,
Swijth 147-140.
a. Xova Scotia :
Nature of tlie civil duties performed by the military 111 Nova Scotia, Maitland 302.
Sec also Troops, 8.
Civil Expenditure. Expeii-e of the civil government at Bermuda, and amoun, of the Par-
liamentary grant towards it, //«j/ 445-448.
Clcriij/mcn. See Chaplains.
Clerhs. Office of clerk to the commanding officer at Peneianguishine is (|uite unnecessary,
(ireig 1 136. *
Cochrane, Captain Sir Thomas. (Ai, ilysis of his I'.vidence.) — Governor of Newfoundland,
y- J Extent of military force, and whether utiy reduction could lie effected thi^rein,
:^-^_-,(io Observiiiions relative to the necessity of a yacht for the use of the governor,
-(i 1 , jOj 'f liu tield officer of engineers might be reduced, as there are no public works
going on, 562-,",t);j.
Colonial Corps. Several feiuible corps raised in .North .America during the war, but very
inferior to the regular troops, and e(|ually expensive, Kempt lijo Not advisable to
raise a colonial corps from emigrants in the (Jaiiadas, as troops in ihal colony reipiirc to
be of the iik.m i llu'ic nt (liscriptioii, and of the highest discipline, Kempl 044.(i4S.
Sec also Militia.
Colonics. See J(C((»;//s, 4. Kfcr live Force. 'Troops, \it.
Command Monei/. ,\mouiii of eominand moiu'y allowed at certain slalioiis in ('aiiad;i, and
uiiinner it arises, (ircig 112()-1 Ij,-,, Kempl ()i)0.
CiiMMlSs.lltl.lT l)i:i'.lltTUEST :
1. (icueralli/.
•i, llcrtiinda.
;). Cawiila.
4. Vi II Siiulh Wiiles.
1. General''
Have thn lioi f all 111
<iciveriiors 01 (' 1 . i«v
of the ..onunissii.. i , irt'iK
j, .\i/i'« Scolin.
0. Van iJiemen'.'i Land.
7. I'apers laid before the ( 'omniiitec.
lies for tile public service in the Coloiiirs, Archer 7S1)
e powri lo demand any ixpluiialion lelative to the details
., Archer H411-H42.
•2. lienniuUi:
Cole
^^35-]
COMMISSARIAT DEPARTMENT.
'3»
Comnmsitiinl DquntmeiU — coiitituied.
•1. Hermuda :
VVlictlier any n.-duction could be effecled in the comraissariai. at Berrau''a, Smelt
537
-539-
3. Canada :
Nilttirc of the various duties performed hv the commissariat in the Canaiins, Archci
8oi, Cliupman 1004-1006, Greig qo^. Manner their payments are made, Archer yqi
Owg 005-qu Number ot persons composing it in 1825 and 1833, showini; an In-
crease eslabhshment and a diminution of duties, Greis; 1106 Amount of its expenses
in Canada and Nova Scotia, and cause of so wide a dift'erenee between lliem, willi the
sents are issued to the Indian tribes, Kempt 724- .,.. „wi.u=.u,. ,„ luamuiin so lam-e an
establisliment at I'enelanguisliine, Kempt 727. '"'
Exli lit of the e>tid)lisiimenl at Kingston, and opinion as lo liu; reductions that micht
be efieeted thereat, Greiy 1101, 1102 I-xtiiit of the eommissariat at Quebec md
cause ot Its bcmg m> extensive, Arc/ier 76.S-7.S1 Extent of the esiablislimem at
Uideaii Canal station, and tialure of tiie reduelions lliat might be ell'ected thereat Greiir
1103-1105 FAtent thereof at York in 1H27, 1828 and 1833, siiowingan increase latt
terly, (heig ioGv. 1067 Kxteni to whicli the e'lablisinnent at York is eapablc'of
being reduced, Greig 1050-1083 Commissariat at York could have bi en eondueled
Willi two jiciMiiis less in 1H27, Greig loCn). 1073 Period of time devoted by the offi-
cers lo their duliis, Greig 1074 Establisliment at Fort d'eorge allogetlier unnecessarv
(rum the easy eommunieation betwten that station and York, Greig ioSS-ioq2 7\ um-
ber of (dlieers neeessHiy for condueling the coiiimissariat of York and Fort Geor-e if
cotisolidaled, Greig 1098-1100 Coiiimissariat at York could not be consolidated h-„iii
the posts being at so considerable a distance from one another, (^my/i 1153-1 1-0"
Parlieuhirs res])ieling tlie commissariat in Canada, and opinion relative to its reduc-
tion. Kempt 718-723 lias been reduced as much as mlglit be expected, Are/ier S'X
— — (."ould be conducted at a third of the present expense, w'illi<mt afiecting tlie eHieiencv
of the service, Greig lio()-ii 12 Resoii ices of Canada ar<> great as to >tand little in
need of a commissaiial, C/myww/i 1002 Frequently happens that inefheient officers
are employed, whose places arc sinecures, Greig 1 120 Reason il could not be dispensed
with, and the troops provisioned by the quartermaster of the regiment, Archer -82
Commissarial officers in Canada perforin (he duties which the Chelsea Hoard (loes"as to
till exauiiiialion of pensioners before payment. Archer 773. 7J)2 Paying detached'ijen-
sioiiers greatly inenases its labours, ^l;c7ic;- 772-7S1 . 702 Letter from tlie Commissary-
general RoutI; lo Major Airey, relative to the commissariat, Archer 707,/). 5(1. ' "
•I, New .iuulh Wa/es:
Particulars respecting the commissariat in New South Wales, Dar/iiig 75-80, Smi/th
144-I4(i, l(il-l6tj Cause of its being increased. Darling SQ-i).\ ^Reason it is so
much more exj)eiisive than in oilier colonies, Darling 07-100, Snii/lh I70-178 It
provides for the convicts as well as ilie troops in New South Wales' and \an Dieinen's
Laud, Darling Hit. 03, llai/ 39, Smi/th i7,-)-l77 Fxtcnt of the reduction therein
and amount ot saving thereby, Archer 234-231) Payments thereof are
eliected through the medium oi' liatiks, Archer 241, 242
re princijially
All money necessary for the convict service i' supplied through the commissariat
Archer 2(14 It has no conlrol over the convict service, Archer 2(13- Ntmihei of
persons ,niployid ihcrein from 1828, Archer 271 Slatemeni specifying the varietv of
duties pertormed by the . .iiiiniissiirial in New South Wales, Archer /). K), 20 ^It
i- icdiieed as low as it can be lo he effective, Archer 2(15 I'roposed distribution and
appropiiaiion thereof in New St)uih Wales, for the year 1S34, Archer 270, p. 23
24 Direct cominunication eonsiaiiily kept up between il and ihe Treasiirv lioaiil'
/l;r//e;' 84(1- Cause ol its reduciion, Archer S47-840 deducing it further would'
liavi' the effect of raising the prices of the contracts, /l;i7i<v .S73, 874.
5. \ov« Scutia :
Class of persons appointed to tlu' eommi-sariai in Nova Scotia, /{ro/ic 401 Lai"e
body of otlicers necessary for the perloiimince of iis duties, frmii the great distance of tlie
respective posts, Archer 7*^ ,',-78(1 Nuinhei of ofHcers altaelKul to it, Archer 7S4
1^1(111 of the goviinoi's auiluMiiy over llie comniiasarial. Archer .S30-H45 I'lstahlisli-
ment for Newloiiiiilland i- ineliidcd in the expenses ol the i-oniinissari,it in Nova Seoiia.
.'lic/ier 7ti(i Number of lroo|)^, and extent ol the eouiiiii>«anat at Nt
.1/(7(1 ;• 811.
NewloiiiKliatuI,
tt. Van Dieincn's Land:
Stall- ol the eoiiimissaiial in \'aii Diemeii's Land, .^//r/iiv SSf)-Mi)4 Opinion les-
pccliiig Its reduction, Archer -zj;, Manner the coinmissiirial i- eondueled at Ilobart
Town, Archer 8i|(,/). 71 Slrenulh of ihe eoninussiiiat tU partmenl at Mae(|u;iiK
llirbour, Archer S^l.
473- ' Si 7. I'apci.^
i
3 I
132
COM
CON [Military Establisliment,
Commissariat Depart me/it—conlhwed.
7. Papers laid befor,- the Committee:
I-\timnte of what mislit b. tl.e probable expense of the cominisbariut in New South
Wale dearraom any a.nv,ct arrangement., and the balance between .he estunatc
waies, ciLrtii 3 Treasury etter a( c ressetl to the othcer com-
H::: .£,^[n nI^sIIu^; W;JS' --ti-^ arran^inents .,r co,.!uc.ing the duties d" the
cZ mislariat deparlment, and transfer o? Government funds from the m.luary chests to
'"Fo"o.hrr"2t.:S';e;at'iu" there..,-..e also Accounts, ,. .. 3. 4- ^, Airey, Major.
i/«S)wJ fo«4e,M.i^or.ge„eral. Uread. Command Aroney. Contracts. ,.a 3.
cZZts 1 Corn. Dafi's. Frauds. Forbes, Deputy Comm.s.ary-general.
Govermmut Funds. Indian Department. Issuers. Military Chest. 1 ensioners.
Presents. Provisions, 1 .
Ruulh,MT. R.J. Stores IVoop, 3. 10. iVorks,
Public, 2.4.
Commissarj/-generai. Responsible for all the commissariat accounts in the Canadas, Archer
814.
Commissioners. See Accounts, 4. Militari/ Commissioners.
Competition. See Contracts,
Consolidation of Offices. Whether a reduction of- the '»ili''">^ ^^;^'!!;^1'";';':^S;;«:;:;
could not b- criected by thuconsoh.lalion ot certan. olhces, kempt / ' --7>y—yP'"" "
Seve y duly connected with supplying .he army, or for ca.Ty...g on pubhc wu.ks .n
c'u ula co.dd be ..onsolida....! and perfnrme.l much .nore elhc.ently than a present,
^j;'" 7 '°_Opi,,ion .hat .he commissariat a.ul ordnance m Ca,ia.la .n.ghl be conso-
id e<i a1; I tl>e annual expense of the ordnance efllc.ed .hereby, Cre,g . l.o-— >ames
o I e p consolida.e.1 nl Cana.la .hat previously had con.m.ssar.at esL.bl.h.nen.s at
each. Green 1151, 1152. See also Harracks, 2. Commis^anat Department, 3.
CoNTH-iCTS:
1. Generality. 3. Kew South Wales.
•2. Canada. 4. Van Dtemen's Land.
1 . Generally : , , ■
Cnva in.onvenience arises to the commissariat from the failure of the conlrac.ors in
the Cdonies. /nA.v .40, .,7-~S^>rur. of those made by the Board o. Ordnance tor
provisioning the troops in England, Archer 8OO-870.
2. Canada :
Manner contracts are made by the commis,aria. for the supply of raf ons to the troops
,nl^l^^Greig 078-99'. ^^"'P' 7" A" -"'-* ^'"^ ^"'"'^'^ "'' l'"*^'''-' ^'"'•^
981.
3. li'en' South Wales: v ■ ,
Sv-.tem of contr.clin.' for provisions for the service of the connnissariat in New ^oulh
^^-nie;!X means on"h,e,n' that es.abhshmenl. Archer ^,H. 851 - -Great uncertamty
as to ilieir due j)crforinancf, Archer 880.
4. Van Diemen's Land:
Manner .hecontrac.s for provisioning the troops in Van Diemen', Land an' Australia
•ue ' e /J,V«« .o3'2-lo38 Contract system is not to be depende,! upon from the
;' V 01 he co,Hrac,,-'rs, Archer H,,4, '• 70, 7'-—^- 'I'"""'')' ">, ,""'I"^ I----
^, 'contract for supplvin. (Mov,s,ons. ,on.pe.itMn beutg very great, ^■"".■""'' "^o
IJl-Every Hung conncct.-.l will, the supply ol .he . loops ami convic.s ,s done by con-
traC, Fanfoul "1043-1040. ,, ■•
See also Ihead. Commissariat Department. 4- P'ov'swns, 1. 3.
Contractors. See Contracts,.]. .Sccuritii ••■
Coy I I CIS :
1. lierniudii.
'i. \eir South Wales and Van Diemen's Laud.
X Papers lai<i before the Committee.
1. liermuda :
Number thereof al HcMmiida. //,»/ 43'' C^n^^cls iciuire a guard uhile a. work.
;ui(l Miinetimes aboard their ships, I urner 4.-,l-4,jf'-
Isiaiiii, Woktfoid
•2. New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land:
Niiiiib.r of convicts at King Geoige's Sound stalnm and Norfnik
' "'" "^ ' • " ' ■ ' ^ilK•.■ the hulk system was abolished, Hay
d, stating the number
,o.i Coiiviels hav<' very iiuieh incri a-ei
,4:.„5— I'opula.ion of New Sou.h \S'ales and Van Diemen's Lan.l, stating the nu.nber
; f c nviels ll, ■>,: Class .,f eonvieis maintained a. the Government expense in N.^w
S, l\ -ale li iVan Diemei.', Land. Pairloul .0,4— "Number ol —icts ahvityOtad
a tciidencv
Colonies; 1835.]
CON
EXP
»33
at work,
Cunvkts— 2. Nerc South Wnles and Fan Diemen's Lund -coaUMxed.
'„ tendency to increase rather than di.ninisl,. ^rr/ur 27? Expense ot mainlannnj; them
m .8'n it. New South Wales, Archer 2CG Cause ot convicts rcqu.r.ng mo.e attention
from the commissariat than .mops, Jrcher 257-^61 Observattons re.pectn.g the con-
victs supported by Government, Darling 94-97.
3. Piipvrs laid he/ore the dminittee :
Proportional difference between the care of 4.80° convicts and the care of as many
"Nie'ais:!'i^«mM^'-' DeparOnent , ,. -J . Pro.imns,.. Ua>ions, .. Revenue,..
Stores. Siiperinti lent nj Convicts.
Corn. Price of wheat liable to much fluctuation in Van Diemen's UmU'airJmvl 1058
!!LGreat loss oceasiotied to the public from the commissanat in Van D.emen s Land
neglecting to lay in a sufficient store of grain, Brijan 1040, 1041.
Correspondence. See Accounts, 4. Bourke, Major-general.
D.
Darlin- Lieutenant-general Ralph. (Analysis of his Evidcnce.)-Time witness was
governor ot New South Wale.,'43, 44— Extent of .he garrison when -"--eh 45
L_Variot. applicatio,. nuide Ibr^^ased niu.^r ot t^>^^^^;jej...unant^
SrWalL^-S^^inStbodJlguan .-f.^
to India ; cause of the variation in t.ie amount of »";-,'^,'^V^''-59-s74T-;„V;: '",;' "e n-
fore.. would not be desirable in New South Wales, (^-^-f — ,^'''J '"'1"'^^ '^,.^7,, ,^
„ . „,l fin _F.it'il)lishment is on the bwtst possible scale, 72 — -lUtmoianmm
re:;i'ti;;T;S and tampon of New South wLs, 73— State of the eomm.ssanat
U& mlJi^t:::'dispenil U 8t-85--Fnrtieulars res,,ec.ing t e ^^^^^^
cer -.^I-'-'-.J''3,'^-C,[. Wale! t-i^0^eT;;;^o":"er ecti'ug the convicts
bong y^YfJ';^' '" ,.^,^;;„f "''l,"^^^^ the commissaria. in'New South Wales is
;l:^v^;;::^o;'cS^':i:i:8J^'o5i\o^'i^bservaLns as .0 .he proposed reduction in
the'^taff n New South Wales, 113.
Archer 804, p.Ji- ^^e also Provisions, 1.
D.,u„ Assistant Connni^sary-ireneral. Amount, of the salary of those attached to the
oonimissaiial department in Quebec, .-/n-Ae)' 7C19- uii.. ,1;.
De SaloLery, Colonel. Commaiule.l the militia in Canada durn.g the war, and highly dis-
liu.Miishe.l himself in .hat situation, Kempt 092. 7o7-
Divine Service. Stations in Bermuda at which divine service is perfor.ned, lurner 46..
E.
rfleclire Force He.uin <,f .he numbers and dis.rihu.ion of .he effective '"f'^^ "fli«>rs,
^'I'n "ommllMoned ...tieeis and rank and file of the Ihuish army, in the several Colonies,
uieludiim colonial corps and artillery and engineers, App. p. Sy.
of the Emi-ralioii Cnimissiou, "''.'' 3/ yiO—Tf ';,.',, Oi.inion respeeling eini-
,„ NovaScolia of what they are <o hud, broke 3(u, ;j(,.2---Upmion us tt y
,.,uts enlistinix iu .he tnilitia, ''''''^-^ 362. 37'^-378- 383- 3^ , .iSf--^^^^^^^ ^"l
porting and disposing nl ui.empK.yed emigrants in iNova Scotia, Broke 3«4 3fe/-
.Sff al-o Ciilonial Corps. Militta.
r ;. .... Ih,u,r/,„cnt Opinion if public work, were conlraeted lor in Canada, with eiigi-
"^'liir^/ifpSl thJ ;^!^.ess If .he works, ,t would les.en the expense o, the enguucr
depar" nenl, (j'/f% lU'-
J'.iiiiiiii, lion. See Accounts, A.
Fn-.v Oliic'^rs UWnn- and trouble at.eudin.u; .he payment ol pensioner, by i''^' '"'"'"'■-
''"' ' ^' . . ,1, cnluinccd liom having no excise olhcer* m ti.c sealteied v.l-
sarial in Canada ver>
Archc
I I'^'i 1 1 ■
olilure.
Mililarjj Expenditure.
4T;i'
S)
Failures.
!^
'1
»34
FA I
GRE
[Mililiiry Etttablislimcnis,
Fnilurvs. See L'uiitrticis, l.
I'liirfou-I, (iivrf^e. (Annlyhis of his Evidence.) — Every thing i-onnccted with the siip-
|)fy of the tioo])s anil convicts in Van Oicinen's l,iiii(l and AnstrnMii is done by eontrnel,
I(i43-i(i4(i No dilliculty in lindinf. _..;':.onrt to contfacl Cor provisions, coniiielition
being wry great, 1030 Class of convicts maintained at tlie (iovtriinicnt expense in
!Ncw South Wales and Van Dienien's Land, lo,'-,4 Prices of l)cef and niuttnn in Van
Dieinen's Land, I05(i, 10,57 Price of wheal liable to much lluctuation, 10 yS.
Vi'iicihlc L'lirps. !?ee I'oloiiidl Ciir]>\.
Fuidiic. All slaiV odicers enlilled to I'oriige for their horses froHi the coimnissarial,
Kempt 704.
Forlics, i)epiiiy Coniniissary-ljeneral. His oninion lliat the connnissariat in Caiindii could
be ciindiietiil at half its present expense, G/c/'i; II17,
Fort (ieari^c. Sec Comviissfiriul Dcpartiiieut, 3.
Framls. I'recantions taken by the coininissarial to prevent fraud in payiiiir the pensioners
in Canada, Ardur "^~'J>io, C»n;ij' p'Ju-q'2j.
Fridciiik's Tovii. I'apilnl of New lirinisVMck ; ninnbir of troops mainiained iluriin,
Kriiifil -51.
Fraitlivr. See Cfiiiitda. I'roops, 8.
Fiiiiil.s. See (lovtriiiiu'iit Funds.
li.
(iiw/^. Ne ssary loi military he'iig employed wiih regard to local gaols in llalitax anil
some oth, towns, Miiilldml 298-303, Kempt 653-671.
(iiiiiiniiib. No reiluclion capable of taking plaei in the garrison of Quebec, kciiiin
Lnj4,Cnjj lilxtcnl of the garrison at New South Wales when (ielieral Dariiiij' lett,
Diulii'iji 45 Rltiiiorundum respecting the siall' and g.-irrison of New South U ales,
Ddiliiig 7,t. Si-c also N(i//, ,.
GarrisiDi Intats. See liiuita.
Gihrnltar. Nature of the arrangements made at Gibialiar with a view to reducing its pre-
sent esliiblishim lit. Ihn/ 2.
Government Funds. Treasury letter addressed to the officer comm.iiiding in New South
%\'ales, r(s|iectiiig arrangeinents for conducting the duties of the commissariat depart-
nienl, and iransfer of f iovernmt lit funds from tin' military chest to hanks at Sydney, Ap/i.
p. too.
(ioreniment Gninl>. See Pdrliamenturij Grnnts.
Goreniiiieiit //oi/mj*. I'arlieulars respecting liial in New South Wales, W(;j^ 5. p
l^xpeiise of the Goveinnunt house in Newfoundland, and by whom furnished, Hai/
40(1-408.
(icrenmrs. Names of governors ; amount of ihiir salaries, and manner they are paid : Ai
lUrniiida, //rt(/4.;i). 4411-442 — In Canada, J/rti/ tiorj-lim — liiNew Ibuiisuiek and Prince
J'.iiwaid's Island, lluif i.sS, 1 Si)— At Newfiniinlland, y/,;;/ 4op--ln New South Wales,
/y«V 4-7— In Nnva Seolia, IJtii/ l8(i, lh7. li|i. 22^>-2;J3— In Van Dieinen's Land, //</(/
10-^ — (Opinion as 10 the result of I'arliumeiil refusing the payment of the gover lor of
Nova Seolia's salary, Ilau 22 1.
•Vie also Coiiimissiiriiil Depart meni, l. r,- Rediiilidiis.
GutcniDr's Iwdii-GiKird. J'iiitieulnis rispe<ting the iluty and expense liiereof in New
South Wales", Ihnltvii ■,-,. UU, Utiii l.'i-lH, Smiftli I08, Itukrfn/d 126, 127 It has
1)1 en supi rx lied, //(/'/ 171),
Giiveniiti's Ymlil. Expense ol tin CJoveriior of Newfoundland's yacht, and purposes w.
which it is ap]ilied, //«'/ 4lo-4l»! Observations relative to the necessity thereof.
Ctirhrnne .''fil, ^li;.
Grain. See V.oru.
Giten, Wllliiiiii. (Analysis of his Evidence. )—Allaelied to the eommissaiial in Nova
Seolia ami Canada, 1 144- 1 14<1 (,'ause ol ihe expdise ot the coinmissaii.i . in Canaila
exeeiiling that of Nova Scotia" so considcraidy, with the same number of Ir.iops ai eaeb
eolonv, ll;-,u Names of the posts consolidated in (Janada that previously had loni-
nii-sariai otHcers at I'aeh station, 1151, 11,^2 Opinion that the eominissarial at ^ uif
could not he coiisolidaied from its distance Iroiii Toronto, 1 153-1 l5i>.
(,
II (///,
./.
(Analysis of his Evideiu;e. i-
-D
<
h<i Sc)-,-onii-
-Caiise of the gte
It dilf
e))Uly ussislani coniniissary-gelK
ill Ml
111 Canaila ,11. d Nova Scotia, 001-003
Nat
ereiiee in the expense ol ilir comniissareii
lire ot the dull
iiiis^anat. :iinl iiiaiiiKi lliiii pavimiit- an- made, 004-111 1 -
i'rliirmed by the
Maiiii'r tlir pensioners in
Colonies; 1S3.;.]
ORE
HAY
135
in New
Greiii, H'illiainJ. (Aniilysia of his Evidence)— toH(K.ui(/.
the Iktiuirsi iiiul Rideiui Canal districts me paid, 9i4-!l23 ^»«"!'' ""'"' !>'•''«»"''"'"
iniven l)V the eoinmissiiriiit to miard u^iiinst Iriuid in paynifr the pcosionen, <i20-pj2
Niiiurent the presents to the Indian iribes, and manner of dislribnlinK them, <}2-l-!J5l
Dulies of the chief of the Indian department in Canada, 942 huhan department
could he very well performed by ihe commissariat, with ilic aHsistaiicc or an inierpreii'r,
'''Extent of troops and commissariat at Amherslbetf,', and nature of the duties
Derformed bv the commissariat tlierei.t, (,63-070 Provisions trequently issued to the
Indians, undir ihe authority of the ln(han department, r,e,6 Manner the commissariat
supplies the I'enetanguishine station, U74-977 Manner contracts arc made by the
commissariat, <j7H-!)qi No diflicuity in obtaining supplies for troops in the absence
of the coinmissariul from a station in Canada, 992-004 Amount allow.:d soldiers lor
rations in Canada, and price charged for the same, 995-99**.
rSi'coiid Examination.]— Extent to which the commissariat station at York is capable
of beini? reduced, t()59-lo83 Reason for supposing the eoramissariat station at hort
Georire is uniieeessarv, 1084-1 loo- Extent of the establishment necessary lor cori-
.lueiinK the commissariat of York and Fort George if consolidated, ioc,S-iioo--—
Extent of the commissariat at Kingston station, and opinion as to the redueti<ms tbat
midit take place thereat, not, 1 102 Extent of the commissariat at the Rideau Canal
station, and reductions that misiht beellected thereat, 1103-1105- Number ol persons
composing the commissariat in Canada in 1H25 and 1833, showing an increase 11. the
number and a diminution in their .luties, 1106 Commissariat in Canada could be
conducted at u third of .he present expense without affecting the service, 1 107-1 12.
Names of the stations in Canada having ordnance estabhshmeiits, and extent to vUncI
tluv miKht be leducid. 1113-1120 Manner the business ol the ordnance departineiit
IS pVrtormetl in Canada, 11 15-1 120 Opinion that the commissariat and ordnance in
Canada shnul.l be consolidated, and a saving of tne annual allowance lor he ordnance
eflected thereby, 1120 Manner the telegraphic department is supported i" Cai a U,
ami purposes to winch the telegraphs are applied. 1121-1 12H '^1',''"''' ^■•^'^"l " '['^
t.le-raphie establishment, 1 128 Amount ot command money a lowed at «T'a' • * •';
in': 1, Cana.ia, and manner it arises, . .20-. 135 Oihc. o clerk to the -•0'"'"»' ^ "S
nicer at IVnetanui.ishine is <,uile •-inneee^s.ry, Uijli >od.ing lol-rcveni eleigymen
at the .litTerent stations performing the duties of chaplain, 1137- —Number ot biigade-
;,L.]ors in Canada, , ,38-1 140— Observations relative to the engiiu.r department.
1141.
H.
Uuiiftix. See ViUidels. GV/o/i. Troops, 8.
Ha,j Rolwrt IVilltum. (Analysis of his Evidence.)-L:iuler Secretary of State for the
T;i,.nies 1 — ^tepsakci/bvOoverninenlwith a view to a reduction ol the mill ary
es In. n.s at ( ibialtar and Ionian Islan.is, 2 Account ol money to bo paid by
lu 1 r lor the support of the military establishment : found im-
1 be" reduce the lorce in tlu'Ltnd ..f Ceyloi^ 2--Names o, the gcm^.^^^
unoiint of their salaries, in New South \Vale> and Van Diemen s Land, 4-— J .irtitu ais
"lili^t gc^eriiment-honse m New ^^outh Wales, 5. 9— Aceoniuott^^eftectne
tn.-.,. in the Australian provinces, and cause ol Us diminution, 11, 2 -Kc.ison lor
X,.;;:altor;e being s.^nt ... New Sou.^ Wjdes, ,;^Nt.mber ol. -^ -P;;-,^
uiaiiitainin.-- the gov. rnor's bodv-guaiil m New South Wales, I0-18 ^ ""■'■,, '^"'""ti
-eercuim troops for the-servlee of Swan River. ,9 20-— Account "* ^'^ F»»
'"tleine.us in the Au's.ralian Colonies, 22 Nature ot the police lorce in New South
Wales, and manner it is supported, 24, 25.
Amount of colonial revenue of New South \yales and Van |^-'"^'i;;^;^;;J; J'jf ;"
Scheme for raising a militiu force not tound praclicaljle, J--^^'^^'^^^^
Sou.h Wales and Nan Dieinen's l/,iid. slating .he number ol com ets, 3- ^^""''^^'
o elii.Man.s verv ...nsiderable ,n bo.h Colonies, 33 Convicts have ^-^Y " "-'' "^
r "r icl- tbe hulk system was abolisliul, 'M-'P Number ot emigianls ard
rnneir^nalesseutouLince the lorina.ion ;'^ t''--^-'- i:::^^^:' ^^tl^e
Commissarial provide for .he .onvieis as well as 'l'^' 'V'"l'^' •^i>~V, '^' , ' 1 „„
arrangement suugelled by the Treasury tor applving part ol the '■7':;; '-'';, J/, ^'^v'^.
Colonies to the slipport of llu^ convicts, .,1 Stall appointments 1,1 New Soulh
will not admit of reduction, 42. , , , .„
[Second Examination.l-Hody-guard in New South W.des ^^^' ^"'^,:;^''''^;^':^
-LEx.ent ol ,he military force m Nova Seotia, 181-183 ^I'l' ' '* '' "^^.'.^a sU e
from New iJrnnswiek tor an increase ot troops, in consetiuence ot the uiistt IcU si 1 e
ri^bomuhnv :,ues,ion, t84-_Aniount of the sah.i^ ='lrSru d Sinc^
..oven.or of NoVa Scotia, and the lieulcnaut-governors ot New^ """"?':,;'"' . "si
?' l\' r^ M,u-..!, and manner -lw> funds are derived tor paying .he same, .81.-101. 2 «
:„No.arianuntary vote for Xova Seot.a, 192 Amount o. '^"■-"^^.^'.f'^';'
S^U.. N^v itninswiek L\ I'riiie.. Kdward's Island. .93— Suite u. he nidi n., 194
-—- Vmouiil paid by each province lor oliieers u, tram and inspect the inilm«, MM-
473.
'*4
Amount
136
11 A V
K E iM [Military Eilablishincnt,
llini Kolini n'iHidm. (Anal.V»is of his Kvidencc)— <()«/i«mv/.
A.non..l miuiral to keep iip iho citadel of Halifax, up Extent ot -he pub ic work.
for n"u.i ■. in« the l-roVincc of New nr.n.swirk. ..,7 Amount ... pm-ulntu... m
> ,v- Seo a N;« lUtnlswiek and Prince K.iwa,d\ Island, i.jS— ['ar.KH>h,rs - ■speet-
h.,^ ,e.,iiiliain Nova Scotia, .uc.-^o^: Exient of .he redactions .,. Nova^cot.a.
' oa- '..( --Veiv unwrse to reduce the force, on account of the extent o the frontier.
20--on Militia for.e not al all popular, eia-si.-, Price paid for rations >n
?Jnva"scolia 116,217 -Revenue of Nova Scolia is under the control oi the Assemuly,
r,s^ ;..ol-^Opinion as to the result of Parliament refusing; the payment ot the governor s
s"alarv,"'2.!i -Manner in which the revenue of Nova Scolia is expended by the Assem-
Wy, 222-227.
rri.ird Examination.]— Extent of military force in Newfoundland, 402, 403 Amount
L'' ' . , ^ 1 ■.. : ;.i ./,i_^f„, 1. viwiicd <it t 11' I'ovi innient-
ofthe sioveriiors salary, anil
manner it is paid, 404-400 Expense ot the governinent-
hou-e.'"muVl)y whom furnished, 406-408 -Expense^of the governor's yacht, and pur-
poses to winch it is applied, 410-416 Amount ot the colonial revenue, 417-— t^-
lent of the popiilalioii. 4i« Observations relative to the evil establishment ot Nev-
fb ml nut be nu provide.! tor out of the colonial funds, 422;4"-4 Amount of mih-
a force at Bermuda, 45«-42H ^Amount of the governor's salary, 429 Amount
of revenue, 4'W Extent of population, 434 Number ot conviels, 43(.— Amount
. es i natJs lor public works. 437 N.> reductions praclic.ble, 439 Op.ruon as to
ivir.l.egovci'nor's salary out of the col.mial tund, 440-41.2 Lxpensc of the civil
IroVernr. ent, an.l amount of the Parliamentary grunt towards it, 44o-448-
*'|P.,ur.h E xaminu.i..n.]-Amount of military force m the Cana.ias, and mann.:r they
•■re distributed, o8o-^8g Exient of lionlier towards the Umte.Mates, 590 l!-xtent
;;nhem,litiat.;.^er5;..— Nature of .he recommen.lations '^^ ''-'"' '"^l^y,™-;;;^
in 182-, lor putting the Canadas in a proper state ot .letence, SO'^-oyJ-j-JX-'t"" " "'^.
c^enls made .0 the Indian t.ibes. (ioo-tio4 Amount ot salary; and em.du.nents o
!.n-e or in the Canadas now and formerly, and fund.leiived rom, t.05-tuo--AnK,unt
.*; revenue, (in Extent of poi.ulalion, (il3 ^^^n. ot con.emplated recluc.ioi.s,
0' )? -^-Parliculais respecting the plan recently adopted ol training the milil.a, 019-
,J3o_ Jucduclions in .he m.lilary establishment have been made as tur as practicable,
O31.
lliiiltli i)f Troops. See Troops, 2.
Jluhurt Toiiu. See Commissarial Depnrtiiifiil, (J.
House of Asu'M,,. A bill was introducecltheiei,. .uring ^^''"'^f^^■';;;;";;;^~ ';;,,;J:,
(•■inadas for i.'i deiini; the mililia force ellVetive, hut wa- r.jecied, hanpt •\K>~— ' 'I """'
h" la 1 g. 1 n hacr m Cana.la should be sup„or.ed by .he lions . " , Ass-Mnbly, but it
Ivoul.! b.. hopel -ss .0 . xpeet .hey w.nil.l u.i.ler. .ke the charge. Kempt 08^-602.
.Sec also Reunite, 2.
Hulks. See Conviels.
:i;.^"';;,,;.";,',r,;- i.i,i.» .' ill" ".i""' .i..»..i.t«" ■■< ""■ '»''»" '''i»""" '■'■"'"""
looti. 1024-1026. drei'^ 9,V--!»u4-
li„li<w Tribes. See hulion Department. Presents. Provisions, 1.
Ionian Islands. Nature of the arrange.nents made .1. th.. l;-;';; '^|;!;';!;;;j:;:;';"'"'^' '"
reducing the militarv cablishmen., //«// 2.' -V.' also .M>l'ta,,, J.ipniUtlan.
Ireland. Opinion as to raising a corps in Ireland for the ,ervuc of Nova Scotia, liroke
3[t3-
Ireland Island, ^ve i'haplains. Troops,:.
Issuers. Nature of the duties of issuers in ihe commissariat .lepar.inen. at York, Gre,g
107!).
K.
hevw, UiMit linn, (ieneral Sir .lames. (Analysis of his Eviden.-e.)--Anxious .h'sire of all
S'r' Ol, ol C Ida .0 Mdiiee tlie.stalT, and .liminish ther.-nlar »"'<-;". l-al .0 oiy, lor
Ihe last l.n v.ars.aiHl opinion it is not capable of being r.<h.eed still tmtlier, 03-.
MllUia ..f Cana.ia are a' very formulabl.. b.'dy, but the .xistinu law ,n .hat colony ore-
veiit^ .heir being rt ndt rt il e
liieient,
';i3-''.i.i
•the conipu
tiuii of tlie p'
will not lessen the regirlar (oree in tliat colony, as
tlie troops will l)e require. I lor
rks in
Ifo
II
uir piutection, (>3.>-'>.VJ
-Extra baltalion net
essaVv in Canada 10 suppor
t the militia
in repelling aggr
ions under the boundary iinesti.ui, U40-64J
-K
egim. nts en
list
men
C()Ionie»; 1835.]
KEM
iSr I L
>37
Kempt, Kiglit Hon. Ooiieral Sir J{imes. (Analysis of hia Eyxdcncc)— continued.
in C;aiia(la; any man dtlrrinj,' himself at head (imiili-rs is taken as a recruit if fit for ser-
vice, ('^^ Not advisable to raise a coloiii.il cor|>'- for llic defiiice of tiie Caiiadas troin
cirifiraiils, 644. 649 Seveiai fencible corj)'. raised in Norlli America during the late
war, hut very inferior to the regular troops, ant! trjually expensive, (150.
Nuniher of ni;nlnr troops oseiilially necessary in Canada, for the iiurpusc of in-jiiring
con(i(h'iicc ainoiii; the native corps in ease of emer;;eney,()51,(i.V- 'i'roops in {,'amula
niomit L^uard at the gaols, hut othi.wise pertorm no civil duties, 6,j3-0()O — —Gaols
throiighoul Canada n'oi sunicienlly secure lo dispense wiili a mililary guard tor their
proiectiou, tilil-liyi' Ueason it'would he impolitic lo willidraw any portioti of the
nrcscnl iey;ulai force from the Caiiai'as, fi7-2-(i7(i Ohservatioiis relative to reiider-
iMi; 'he militia au cilicieiit body in Canada, ()77-(iS4 Opinion that the troops 111
(Canada -hould be niauUaincd by ihe House of Asseiidily, hut it would be hopeless to
expect ihcy would inuleriake tlie cliarge, (;85-(io2 rur|)Oses to which llie revenue of
till' Caiiadas is appropriated by the Hou^e of Assembly, 6H7.
Number of ariillery and ciiiiini crs in Canada essentially iiecessaay for the service ot the
colony, (ii);}-- -No riductioircapalile ot' taking place in the garrison of Quebec, t)04,
6();-, Sum allowfd for the stall' in Canada is necessary, and not capable of reduction,
fio()-7C!0 Number of aides-de-camp Lord Aylmer, as Governor of the Caiiadas, is eii-
ti'lled to, 701-703 All slalF ofticers entitled' lo lorage for ilieir horses from tin; coin-
niissaiiiit, according lo their rank, 704 Number of chaplains to ihe forces in the
Canadas, and amount of llieir salaries, 70^,-710- Medical stull not capable ol the
slightest ndiiction, 71 1 Whether u reduetion of the military establislimenls in Canada
ccnild not he eilected by consolidating certain offices, 71 2-7 l.O Particulars respecting
the commissariat department in Canada, ae.d opinion lespectiug its reduction, 7lH-7i3,
Cause of ihc commi>sariat al Peuelauguishiiie being so extensive with so small a nuru-
Ixr of troops al lliiit statioi: 7.:4 Every opportunity has been taken lo reduce the
Indian de|iariment in Canada, 7J.J-727 Number of troops in Nova Scotia is abso-
liitelv necessary during the unsettled slate of the houndaiy <|uestion, 7'28-731 -state
of tlie militia in Nova Scotia, 7;j'2-73,-j EHect of a rupture between tins couiiliy and
Ihe Uuiteil Siaies were the regular troops partially withdrawn from Ilalilax, 73G-744— —
Nature of the niililary stations in Nova Seolia, 745-752 Cause of the ixpense ol the
commissariat of Cimuda exceeding that of Nova Scotia, with the name number ot
troops lo inainlain, 7,-,;}, 754. .
Expense of tlie inediL-al sialf in Canada and Nova Scolia, and cause ot so large a dil-
ference, 7.-;j, 73G Militia of Canada highly distinguished themselves during llie war,
7.-7, 7.-'8_10pinioii that tlii! incaeiit force in Canada Is not too large fur a peace' esta-
biishiuVnt, an,! lou small during a period of war, 7511 Opinion as 10 the period Quebec
might be maim, uu'd against an' invading army from the United Slates, 760-7G3.
King George's Sound. See Convicts, •z. Troops, 7.
Kingston. See Cnnwtissaiiiit J)ci>tirtnicnt, 3.
l.iciilciiaiil (ioicrnurs. See Governors.
iM.
Macquaric Unrbonr. See ( 'ommissnriat Department, 6.
Miiintcntincc. See Convicts, .1.3. Cilndch.
Mmlland, General Sir Vcrcirinc. (Analysis of his KvidenceO-GovernorofNova Scotia, 278
Militatv force not m'. »lrong 111 ?.ova Scoiia as belore the last American war, 2«o-
I'l.ice, which weie furnished with detachments from the mihtaiy e>tab!idiment ol -Viva
S'olii -81 -"H3 Natuic of the mililarv duty in Nova Scotia, 284 N'' reductions
oHiMbemade in the eslablisbuieiit with a view 10 the pubhe service. cHj-^gf ;
Amount. diruops stationed at Anapolis, 288 Necessary lor mililaiy being employed
at (he -aols in Ilalilax and other towns, '298-303 Nature ot the civil Am^t'i pcrtorme.
by llu'miiitarv in Nova Scotia, 30a Number of soldier, at the respective >»'""■;
notaduiitofr'.dactions, 304-3'4 Ubscrvalioiis relative lo training and calling out
staff ill Canadii and Nova Scolia, and cause of so
-Medical stulV of Canada uol capable of the slightest
the miliiia in Nova Scolia, 31 5-3'20.
Medical Staff, l-.xp.eiise of the mediciil
large a differeiiee, hcmpt -jj, 7jtJ-
reiiuction. Kempt 711.
Militari/. See Guois. liiols. Troops.
Militan, Chest. Amount of money usually m the military chest a, y'';;:"'"';'' .'J^;;^';;;;^
of the commissariat, Greig 1073 Aluays under .louble lock and key al all ilu sta.ious,
Aichei 7<jo.
Nature of the r
iiitarii Commissioners. INatuie ol tiie recommendaiions 01 me iinni.... -.
1825", for |.utlitig the Canadas in a proper stale of defence, Hai/ f.tcJ-SPQ
473- "^
ecommendations of the military commissioners in
Militiiri/
n t
138
M 1 L
NOV
Militaiv EttnbliihmeiU,
Uilitiini Eipemliture. Amoiinl of moiu'y to be |.:ii.l by ilir loiiiiui gnvtrnini.iit lor the
,ui.iH)ii'..rilifir military I'sinbliBlimcm, llui/ ^.
Military Sirrelari/. Nutiirc of llic dutits of the iiiilituiy sccrctnry in C'aiiii(ln, Ketiipt 714.
Mi/ilaru *M/(0">. Caii.e <.f one imf^ic soldier only beinn; U-h at Hn.uo „( the stations in
New Sonlb Wulw, Wakefield I'H I'artieubirs rcspeetinu; tb.^ ..ul.lary .imu.ns in Novtt
Seoiia, Kempt 74-,-7.Vi Names of the |.inces wbuli weiv furnislie.l ivitli .iLlncnments
from tiie military esiabhsbment of Nova Scoiia, Mailiatid jSi-jS;).
Hec also Anapulis, Divine Service.
Militia .-
1. C a nulla.
2. -Vtt' South Wales.
y. S'vin Sculia.
1. Canada: .
Exirnt of the militia foreo in the Canndas. //,(// .-,01 Particulars le.pcciing the
nlan'rerentlyn.lo|.te.l of training the militia, liuj/ ihi>-t\\o—--Mi\aux o\ ^^;"'"; ;^ ;;''-^'
a formidable body of men, but the exislm- law prevents ti.em beins' lemlei. <l . lb icnt,
K<-;HnMiTt-(vivVv77. <>H4 Training; a portion of the militia under tbe aulbovity ot
eovJnment fs'a '^.'Jrv fudieions measare. Kanpt (i;,4--Militia of Canad:. In^lily
di^.m-nabed tiiemserves during tbe war, KempI 7,-,,, Opinion that were a portion
of tlu militia rendered etbeient, it wonid be still nece=^sary to retain tlie regular lorce in
llial eolony. Kempt G33. (i84.
2. Sew SdiUh It ales :
Reason n militia foree would not he desirable m New Soulli Wales, Darling G5-G8,
llui/ 20.
3. Nuva Siolia :
\Lxpems of maint«ini..«< the militia .n Nova Seot.a New BrunswK-k and I'ri.-e Ed-
ward's Island //</(/ iq4- Observations n-speciing tbe mihtia m Nova Seotia /{roAe
foree not ai.dlpop.ilar in Nova Seotia. llaj, .:,2-2.5--It -s \,^y,ui:^u Broke ^sS-~
Culomal eorps would be mueb more expensive than B.itisli soldiers in Nova Scotia,
lirvke wn. . , .,
.See also /)(■ Salahen/, Colonel. Lmii-runts. House of AssemMi/.
Moreton Bay. I'arlieulars respecting the military otVicer there, amount of bis salary. 8u.-..
Darling 87.
Morrisset, Colonel. See
yorftilk Island.
\tu- Jiniiim-iik. See (iuvermirK. Mililia. VupHlutiuii.
Public, 3
Jieieiim, \ . 'I'mops, ,;. Ilorks,
XeaJ'oKudland. Disirilmtion of the troops at Newfoundland on the IM February 183').
' ^'srJ'n\i'>Civil Depart, mill, 3. Commissariat Dqiurtmail, ,v liovanmeiit Houses.
Governors, (iovenioi's Yaelil. Population. Reductions. Rest oj troops. Revenue,l.
Sliilf, 3. Troops, (i. to.
\m- South Walts. Welurn of all pav, allowances, , niohim. lit. and salaries, issued to ollieers
,.f the military. S'"'"*"". "ie<beai and < ..mnussariat st.ilf, and of the ordnance depart-
,„,.nt, for the year lS3-^-33, •»/'/••/'• !)" •I'""" "'' »'" ""'"I" r' "."''l di>lribulion ot
the eHeclive iJicf, oliiceis, non-eommis^ioiied otticci-, and rank and hie, ol me IUili>li
aimv, including colonial corps, since lSi,-„ inckidini; ariilleiy .-.nd enuincers yl/7'.
,, Hu Ksliimile of what minbl lie the probable e\])ense ot the commissariat, cleared
trom any convict iirianuenients, ami the balance between that estimate and the present
expense, App. p. .((J — Distribution of the troops >crvin,s' in New Soutli Wales un.l
Van Diemen's Land, on tbe i>tt.f May 1H34.. ■!/'/'• /'■ ;iV , . ,. ,
isee also Accounts, 3. 4. Barracks, 3. Civil Department, 4. ( omwi'^sartat Deparl-
meiit,.\.T. Contracts, ■>,. Convicts, -2. Depots. Kmii^raiils. (.arnsons
(ioreniiiieiit Fund". (ioverninenl Houses. (iovcniors. (iovernoi's l>odij-(.,uiir(l.
Mililaiif Stations. Militia, 2. Ordnance Department, 3. I'olice. J'opulatwn.
Provisions, 2. Rations,':. Re^t o/Tronps. «.ir),»r, 1 . 3. SV <(//■, 4- Superintendent
of' Convicts. Troops,-]. 10. Works, I'liblic, 4.
Sorfolk Island. Opinion the situation liehl by Col..nel Morii,sel therein might be dispensed
witli, Darling .Si-85. See also Convicts, 'l.
V.iru Scoiia. Disiribulion of the
I 01 tbe troops sir
hiii; to tin latest returns, App.p.<\*'>.
Ste al
^o Jiuals. Ciuil DeparlmenI
( 'omiiiissariiil Deportiiienl,[\.
Emigrants.
(idols. Govei
■nors. Medical Slutj'. Militaiy Smlion^. Mililia, 3. I'arlioiuentiiri/
(iniiils
"/'
1//1///
Rati
Rediicii
Uciicfol'iioops. Revenue, 1.4.
l roops, bl. U"
()//,
'((•(';j.
ithment,
It lur tliu
III pi 714.
stntions in
lis ill Nova
.'lacinncnta
peeling ilic
L'aiiadii arc
(I ( flicifiit,
milioiily of
ladi liii^lily
I'c a |i()rli(iii
ular lurce in
rling C5-C8,
Colonioit; 1835.]
O F F
PRO
139
O.
Officen. Sec Vivil Depart me 11 1. lorage. Moreton Ua^.
Officet. Sec CoiisotiJatiun of Ojficcs.
I. Ucniniila.
S. Vitniulii.
3, AVic Smith Hall's.
I. lifrmiiila :
Dulies of ilie ordnance olhcera very laborious at Bermuda, Smelt 548-551-
'i. Camilla:
NiMiibir of arlillrrv and engineers in Canada essentially necessary tor tlic service of
llial colony, Keiiijit li();J — — Manner the ordnance business is |)erl'orme(l in Canadu,
(iieii; 11 15-1 Uo Names of tlie slations in (Canada occupying ordnance estublisli-
ineiils, anti extent lu wbii'li lliey ininlit be reduced, (ireii^ 1 1 1;}-! 1'20 The requisition
for stores eoniini; direct I'roin llie adjuianl-fjeiieral to llic coininissary-general would save
a great deal of trouble in tlic ordnance departuient in Canada, Greiij MI5.
!). New South Wales :
Latterly ibe Hoard of Ordnance liave sent ont an engineer to superintend the public
buildings in New Soiilli Wales, Archer H(i;5 Ordnance department in New Sontii
Wales is fultillcd by ilie coininissariat, as regards public buildings and works. Archer
253-25^.
See aho Account!!, 2. Udrrmks, it Contracts, i. Storekeeper 0/ the Ordnance.
I I'ri.-e Ed-
cotia, liroke
o Militia
•'>^'' ;).'>.s—
Nova Scotia,
salary, &c.,
IS, ,-,. n orks,
ibruary 1H3-,,
mieitl lldusei.
(, lieveiiue, 1 .
lied to ollicers
liiance depart-
listribution of
of (lie I5rili>b
)t;iiiecrs, Ajip.
saiiat, cleared
id the present
til Wales and
ssariat Depnrt-
( iiirrisoiis,
's l>oilij-Gii(iril.
i'tipilliiti'iii.
Sapfriiitemleiit
It lie (lispensetl
dependencies,
h'jiii lira lit n.
I'lirliiiiiieiitiiri/
Uireiiiie, 1. 4.
Parliameiitari/ (iraiits. Expense of the civil government at Bermuda, and amount of the
Parlianienliiiy urani towards it, lliii/ 44,-^-448 No I'arliiiinentary vote for Nova
Scolia, lliiij lij'J.
I'eiwl Sclllemeiils. Account thereof in the Ausirnlian colonies. Hay 22.
Penetaiii^uishiiie. See Clerki. CominisMrial Department, 3. Troops, 3.
Pensioners. I'avnient of llieni by the commissariat in Canada protUiclivc of much labour,
from llic scattered state of the population. Archer 774, (ireen 1150 Manner the pen-
sioners in the Hailiiirst and Kideau Canal districts are paid by the commissariat, Greig
014-11^3. .S'ff also Commissiiriiil Department, 3. Frauds.
Phillips, Mr. I'ariieulars respecting the salary paid to Mr. Phillips, the storekeeper at
IJerinuda, Ihmluim ,5S3, 584.
Police. Nature of the police force in New South Wales, and manner it is supported, Hay
■:4, -.J-
Popiihitiim. Extent of population: Of Ikriiuida, /% 434— Canadns, Haij 613— New
South Wales and Van Dieiiicii's Land, //(/.(/ 32— Newfoundland, 7/03^418— Nova Scotia,
New Brunswick and Prince Edward's Island, Hay 198.
Port Miiciiiiurie. See Civil Department, 4.
Presents. Particulars relative to the distribution of presen"-. to the native Indian tribes in
UppiM- Canada, Greiir j):4-9l)l Nature of llie prestats made to the Indian tribesin
Canada tlMoiiLih the c<nnnii>sariat, Chapman 1013-1017, Gmg 924-05 1, 7/ay 600-604
I'ltsenls'to native Indians in Canadu all barlered away by tliem lor dnnk, Chapman
1021, 11)22. .SVf also Commissariat Department, 3. Iiuliua Department.
Prices. Sec iVoc(«"Ms, 3. Rations, l. ;)■
Prince Edtcard's Island. See Governors. Militia,^. Population. Revenue,!.
PRorisioys:
1. Canada.
'2. AVi/' Smith M'd/ef.
;L Van Dienicn's Land.
1. I'aimda:
Manner troops ni the Cl.inadas are supplied with |)rovisions, AreherSli<, Greig 1 100
Issuing provisions to the troops ol very minor importance to the cominissariat, hempt
-1(5 No (lillienliv in obtainini; supplies for the iroops in case the cominissariat is ab-
sent from his station 111 Canada, Grei<i i)'J'^-o[H Nature of the slorcskept at llie vanous
dep6ls in Caiiiida, /ln7i<T 7.17 No proviMons sent to the Canadas Ironi England,
Archer 7Qii ^ — Provisions freiuunlly distiibuled ainon-j; the Indians m distrcs undtr the
'-•■ ,, . -. .. , ,- .. j^^, ii;^, iiuiian
■nt of the
autboiily of the Indian (lepaiiment, (inv^' iiiili -Supply of provisions
tribe
remains 111 store of pio\isions,
Arelier 796, p. Go, til.
437-
made l>v ihe commissariat, Chapman loio- Statement o
I fuel at the several stations in ihe Canadas,
T 2
( )Jl)icert,
1 !
'
IM.
iV
1' HO
U EV
[Miliwry l".»iubli»liiiicui,
ProW»to"J— L-iiniiiiiieil.
•» Sew Sunt/i Wales ; . , n
v., nmvi.K.ns ,cni uui .0 Nt-vv Soutl. W«l.s iVon. EnKlu.ul, Aniur XU2 Hr.unrcc.
!l„.m %■-/</» i'>4" ^'t'^'"'' '"'• ''"• "^'^^ '" '^""'■"''" '" ^'"' *"'"
ih.' h'liurc Mipplu.l ill lliiit col.uiy, Archer ■ibt.
'l>.,„I, lairjhll IC.5.;. .057. See ,,1m. C.<«^«ff», 4. ^ur..,.
I'ublie Works. Si U'.wAj, Public.
««,/..■.. See (•./,»/.■/.. Commmaria, Department, 3. /)./m<^.V .1^'"'«'<' <- "/"»..««n/.g.«.r«/.
Garrisons, Trmtjit, ;^
R.
1. Canntlii-
;J. Vii(( Sivtid.
C.iv rc.uuro.1 .n .loliv. .in-, ration, .0 convicts „u,cl. ..rcaur .lu.n .otl.c troops ,n New
South Wiilcs, Airlier -i.-,;. ar);.
Price p.ul lor rat...ns l,y llic troops m Nova Scotia, //./-/ nu, ^IT-
Ii'ciTii//*. Sec r.iuiiiniiili. . 1 • ir ■
/M... Mil..:;,, ..,ta,.„s,unc,..s coiiM not .. -'^t^;,-';- ^^ :!:i^^^;;:;>;
a. Hcnniwla. II,,, 4;5<i-T-^' ""; i^;;"!^ t^^'^ i^ ;„ „ .^ cn^ia.cl rc.luctions in
Scot.a. .W,;<//.<m/ 2H5--!1". ^••"'/'' ' ■ ' ^/Z i;"r.,,' X c^^^m ('ana-la .0 rc.lucc .lic
.U..V. an.uii,i.in.ii jj- -^: :;. ''7;:;; :!^;^!::!iT;:c t.ili iiiucc^ ..r .;.«.....!.., '.pauic
;^' ;:■:;;::[;;:' :,'N:.:;::.;n2t'f^:i ;i..^rc a. .,o p..mic .orus ,,.., on .ncic c-......,.
,-,t;i-5()5. ,, /).„«r/ni.'H/ ■'•5. 4. ti- Consniiilalion of Ojliie'!. Contracts, :\.
2. ;. 4. 'J'roops, e. ;). 4. ><•
Rel.e,ol'T-'"l>- »•'•'"»' "^ "'"'•'• ""'""•"" "' '"' '""■ "" "'"■"'' '" ^"" ""'"""'
/{iv-Af 39'J- ,, . ,, , ,, ,, ,
„ , ,. 11 I.... . I. ■■,... iii<4ii. Ill lit'd in New imnilland, iMailldml
^''i:.;!:z:?i:'Nc«^:;:::.:\N"i:^";£t!::::; i'"- ."^k -.'"'.- '■• "•". "---"> •■■"> -'■•
Wtiketield llH, '^'".V"'' 'ii^- '^li'"
7J/:it.vrf:;
1. (ieneiiil/i/.
•2. t'linathi.
1. (jeneriilli/: , ,, ,1/
iJicincn's Land, llni/ -^7, -i^-
•2. Canadas : , , , 1 1 i- a ...
„!;\;osi,.tl .luvc'l tax. s on .lie pco,.k- .4 that colony. Kempt UH,.
•.]. .New Siiutli Wales and Van Ihemen's Land :
i\. Sew S„i(lh W,ilefaml Van Diemiii'^ Land.
I. Suia Scotia.
.\;ilti;<' of tlif nri.int^'-nicnt A\>X<H'^
ti'il l)v ilic Treasury
tor nnplving part of the icvcnuc
ul Ni
1. \
mil W a|.
1)171 Sciiliii :
1,1 Vi
Ueveniie t.f Nova Scotia is iind. r tlic con
un Uiemin s
Land to tlie »
iipp.iit of tile coi
ivlcls, //<','/ 41 •
iitrol of ilic Assembly, Parliament liaviim no
pow
er over it, lliii/ :iS-2:<
Manner in wliicli llie rev
■nncof N'ova Scotia is cxpi
Jed
liv tlic Asscmblv,' //««/ -lii-ii^
-See aho Ciril Depart ntent, 3.
Uideaii
Colonies i 1835.]
R I L>
STO
141
liukau Lanal. Sci' Oimmiisdriiit DtimrtmeiU, j.
Rint%. Military in Cuiindii nic liable to bu called out for the purpoie of qutlling riots.
hcmpt ii,r,7. •
Uiiilh, Mr, U. J. LcitiT from Commiswry-iinipra! Uduili to M;i)(ir Ainv, miiituiy secre-
tary 111 WiK'bir, relttlivc lu llii' coininiism 'ut (lc|iurtiiiiiit in Caimda, Arc/ier 7(17, ji. ^6.
S.
Siiliiriei. Amount of t!ic pay of the commnnd.r of ilii' lorccs in Cunad;!, and that of the
(•iimniissary-g.iicrni, sliiiwing t ho larger anu..nit of the latter, thon«li n junior olhcer,
(ilriir 10^4.
Sir stUtt Clw pill ills. Ih'piili/ .hiistuiil Ctmwiifniirij-gciienil. Gniermirs. I'liil/iim, Mr.
Schmih. Knglish xhooU arc otablislicd anion^ the native Indian tribe* in Canada, Greig
957-
Secretiiri/, See Mililurii Sfcifdin/.
Sernritivs. Conir.ieiors obliged to lind security for the due perfornianee of their cngage-
mcnli to the coinnnssariat of Canada, (ircifr c)Sy, jjjio.
Signal Siiilioii. Non-( oniiniiiione ! olheer necessary at the signal >tation in Ikrinuda,
Tiinnr 47(1 Noullicer necv, o liuve charge tbi'teof at Kerinuda, >imelt 33'2, 533.
.Vmt'//, Colonel IViUiam. ( Anulyfi? uf hit Evidence.)— Cominanding a regiment at Der-
ininla, 5io-,-,:j A'nount of military force and duties recjuired of tin in, .•v:3-;V27
Oninion as to ilic nccessily for inainiaining a staff assistant-singcon, o'28-53l No
oliieer lequinil at the signal station, ,■,;)■!. o;i3 l'nrpo^cs to' which the boats are
"i'|'''''''> .7:i4-.')3;' Wlieiher any rediicliun could be ell'ccted in the eominissariat, 537-
.S3P Si.ilc of the health iif the troops in ncnnuda, .",40-,"j44 Spirits verv inurli in
Use among the soldiers, 545-047 liarrack* very extensive and duties of the ordnance
olViccrs very laborious, ,>48-5ji,
Srin/lli, Ciiplain llfiny. (Analysis of bis Kvidencc.)— Evidence relative to the hard duty
performed liy the military in New South Wales, 132-141 Manner the duties of the
commissariat arc performed, 144-14(1. idi-MKi Amount of extra pay allowed witness
in a civil capacity ai I'oit Macijuaric, 147-149 Particulars respecting the bad manage-
ment of the barrack (hparlmeiit In New South Wales, IjO-l,'!^. Hi" Duties of the
Ltovernor's l)ody-;,'ii;ird, i,",H— — Barrack deiiartmeiit would be much improved if trans-
ferred to the ordiidicc, ItiM Opinion relative to reducing the commissariat in New
South \V ales, 170-171! Superintiiidents over the convicts essentially necessary, 177
Uistrihiitioii of ilie commissariat inucli greater in New South Wales than in olhcr
colonies, 17S.
Sotilieis. See 7V'w/(j.
Sjiiiili. Spirits very much in use amon:; the soldiers at Bermuda, Smell 545-547.
STAIf:
4. Sew Sdiith H'((/is.
5. yiuva Scutid.
I. liiiinuilii.
•!■ Ciiiiiidii,
A. SeiifoiDidtiiiiil,
I . I'enniiilii ;
Lxteiit thereof in Bermuda, Tiiriici 4tio.
■J. C'liiiiKla:
Slim allowed for the sialVin Canada is esseiilially necessary, and no! capable of rulnc-
tiuii, l\empt C()(i-7oo,
W. \ewfhuii(lliind :
Opinion respecting any rrdiirtions m the statl'at Newtbundlaud, liurlte .=175-582.
I. y.'ew South Wales :
Miniorandum respecling the stalVand garrison of New South Walts, Darling 73
( )bservalioiis as to the proposed reduction therein in New South \\'ales. Darling 1 13
."•latf appoimmeiiK in New South Wales «ill not admit of reduction, Hay 4:, Darling ■j-i
Nova Scolia, /'rub' 335 Sii.tl reciuites to be increased in New South W ales.
Darling fii|.
■>. Stita Sciilia :
Not capable of reduction in Nova Scotia, Maitlawl -So. <!ee also Medical Sta[f'.
Stall C)//at)J
/■■(.
Stations, See Militav}) Stations.
.Sliirckeeper of the Urd,
Pnrliculars respecting the travelling expenses aduwed to the
storekeeper of the ordnance at Bermuda, Turner 5OJ-519
Uideaii
473-
Stores.
U'i
ST O
T R O [Military Establishment,
S/,„-.v Ml imnk-mmts and tools for ihc convicts in New South Wales me supolieil by the
r . inn si • X/^r 'ifil Abstract of rc<iuisitions for tools, ntatcrtals, clothing and
s,rerr^^..ired by "he comtnissariat for .he use and .naintenance of the conv,cts nt New
South Wales, yl/)/). /). 103-117. „ ••
See also Depots. Ordname Depurlment, 2. Provmom, 1 .
Super:„ta,dent of Convicts. Snp.rintcndenls over the convicts working in road gangs i.i
New South Wales essentially ucccsaary, Smyth 177.
SwdH River. See Troops, 1.
T.
Tn,.k.l<ccper. Whether the oHiees of staff assisUuit-stirgcou and naval tatrk-keeper at
IkrnHula are necessary to be retained, limwr 4«0-49»-
Telegraphs. Aun.u.l expense of the telegraphic establishntent in Canada G«Jfil;2^S---
;i,o:uC",.l«.V,l bv .he ,.l..vi..«i,.l s„,.,.„m-i.i a„,l ,„...cl,„„i., 6mg . .'i..
Tenders. See Contrtuls.
Took. Sec Stores.
Training. See Militia.
Travelling Ex,wnse>. Sec Storekeeper of the Ordname.
Treasur,,. See Anounts, 1. Commissariat Department, 4
Reienne, 2.
TlUtOl\S:
1. Australian Provinces.
'J. liennuda.
3. Canada,
4. Ceylon.
5. ^ew Uruiisuick.
Government Funds.
6. 'Seivjhundland.
7. Sew South IVales.
8. Nui'« Scotia.
9 Van Dicmen's Lund.
10. Papers laid lujore the Conw,itlce.
iralian provinces, and causes of their diniiiiu-
as respecting those for the service ot >waM
I. Aust alian rrovinces :
Account ol the elective force in tlie
ti,n, Hay 11, fi I'l'i"" ^irrung*
Kivtr, Ua_V ly, 20.
lurncr 451-4.'^. ■^""'' ''^'i ;',-' , ,'. i.\„i ;■„,„,.,• , -.7. ^=;8.
:D.S.';1u "Ihuuv arfnlan.l Ul^nd, rarncr ,,J, ^^.
■"'■ ^''"""'"•' ,. . ,.„. r-madas and wanner thev are distributed, //'»V rAO"
Ai.iountof niiluaiy t.Mce in ^''^* V ' ' ^^^^^^^ ihc coni-
es,, Distnl.u.ion of the iroop- here ''"'^^ ' "^^ , .^ ' ^ "Vss by ^. veral hundred
;;,is.ar,;adepai,,nent, In- .r7^'5.^-- -^r^^'f-;;;^^
nun tlKin in 17:12, '^'■"'''^7f■~" "^ ,, , ' Mbdraw ans nmtion of the piocui regular
,;,,., ;^__Hca..m.«oud he iinpd^
(.,ie.-, hcmpi t.7--«>7" ''VA ■ n, f h ■ bouiularv oucstion, Kempt i^o-^H'i. 051,05^
,,^.,_o-o Ninnh.r at tiu( bee, .ircZ/r/- 708.
4. Ceiilon: , , . u ,
r„.,„d impossible 10 reduce Mu. Imc ,n that island, llu, ..
.;. Sen-nrnnswick: ,^.„„i,,f „, N,vv lirunswick. Uroke ^5:-:VA .
Number ol troops on the i^ ^^ ; ,,^^, ^'^ ,„ ,,erease of troops, 111 eonse.,u. uce 0,
Application was nuul.' Imin ><w liuin-"!'^
,1 • ',„>-c,tl.<l stale ol .he boundary <iucst,nn, //"'/ iH4.
0. MeKlmnnllamI: ,,„., „,,„|n.ranv reduction cnuld be eri,
Kxt.ni ol iniliiaiy lorcr in ^'■"'''''''' '.'''' ,,,.,,, -(iu-w,: .Numb, rot troops tl
,her. in, //„v 402. 4-;j. Cochrane 5a.4-o«'0. l.n,U „<». ../4
Archer 811.
7. .V.w/- .'^onlh n;iles : Manner tiicv
U „,,,,, f„,,„,,l,n,,n,lf..,,.Unn, ;..,,.. ..j^^^ .„,,„.
;;;„;:;;:;;';;:;;;;. 'l;±;,2f.£.: .:< 'i"-;;-;;;,-*;,;;;-:;;,s:^i;3":.t-:
S;:;::;;:; ■;;;:';:£■'.;;' ,;.^::'^i^::"--'■^ i- ^-■^ "' ■
WaketM .14-12'., S'"//"' i;!'^-'--*!, ^»"''"- ■-■4!l-^52-
ccHmI
till le,
ishineiit,
etl by the
Wuvj, and
is in New
gangs HI
keeper at
tcnf Funds.
Idee.
iieir chmiiiii-
L'u ot ^^^vall
n'elt 540- ",44
(I, lini/ .'fi;'}-
ol ilii' ciini-
cnil Inuulied
rsi'til rc>t;iilai
he mililia in
i4'2. 05 1 ,05 J
;-Su8, (iicig
)I1SI'(|1I(IICC lit
(1 l)c .•tiiTlcd
iKKip^ ilinc,
-MMniii 1 liicv
II' caiisi' 1)1 il"'
.11 ti>;iii "' 'It -
Held IZ,\
Soulli Wale-,
II. \,>ri/
Colonies; 1835.]
TRO
WO R
M3
Truopi — coiitiiiueil.
8. Nova Scotia :
Extent of the military force in Nova Scotia, Hai/ 181-188, Brohe 334 Nature of
their duties, Mailland aS4 Very few King's troops employed in civil duties. Broke
382 Number of soldiers ot the respective stations will not admit of reductidii, Hat/
207-211, jUfM^/flHti 304-314, iJroAe 327. 34(i, Kempt ■j^o Amount of troops neces-
sary to be mainiaiiud there duriiiij; the unsettled s(ate of the boundary question, Hay
■207-211, kempt 728-731 Military force not so strong in that colony as before the
last American war, Maillaiiil 280 Amount of troops stationed at Anapolis, Mail/and
288 Great inconvenience arose from the removal of a regiment from Nova Scotia
10 the West Indies, Broke 330 LiUci of a rupture between this counliy and the
United States were llie regular force wididrawn from Halifax, Kempt 73^-744.
{). Van Diemen's JmihI:
Various ap|)liciitions made for an increased number of troops by the lieutenant-governor
of Van Diemeii'.-. Land, UflrZ/Hg 48.
10. Papers laid before the Committee:
R< turn of the nunihersaiul distribution of the effective force, officers, non-commissioned
olViccrs, and rar.k and file of the Britsli army, in the several colonies, according to the
laie-t rclurii* nceived, ineludmi;; colonial corps and artillery and engineers, App. p. q6
Distribution of the troops on the 1st January 183-,: At Bermuda, App. p. Q'j — In
C;uiada, yl/j/)./). !)8— At Neufomidiand. l:.t February 183,-,, yl/i/). ji. 97 — In New South
Walts, 1st iMay 1834, App. p. 95 — In Nov.i Scoiia, App. p. 96 — In Van Diemen's Land,
1st -M ay 1 834 , .^/)/<. p. 05.
For otiier maltcis relating thereto — see also Bermuda. Botindari/ Question. Canada.
Citadels. Civil Department, \. Convicts,^. Frederickstown. Gaols. House of
Assemldi/- Ionian Islands. Alilitia, i.t,. \ewJonndland. New Saul h II ales.
A'ota Scotia. Provisions. I, 2. Ration'-. licducliuns. Jielief of' Troops.
Rest of' Troops. Revenue, 2. Riots. Spirits. \ an Diemen's iMnd. iVorks,
Public, 2.
Turner, (icneral Sir Ililsirave. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Governor of Bermudn, 449
Amount of military force in Bermuda, 451-453 — ^Convicts rccpiire a guard while
at work, and sometimes aboai<l iluir shi])s, 454-456 Duties of the military at Ire-
land Island, 4,-,7, 4-,8 E.xiint of the statf in Bermuda, 460 Stations at which
Divine Service 1- performed, 4f(l •I'.xaminalion relative to the naval chaplaincy at
Ireland Island, 41 ()-472— — Non-commissioned ollicer necessary at the signal siulion, 47(7
Opinion resiiecliiig the reduction ol clergyman in Ireland Island, 477-488 Whether
the otKces of stall assistant-surgeon and naval laiik-keiper are necessary to be retained,
4S()-4uS Evidence respecting the uses made of the garrison boats, 4()()-504 Par-
ticulars resptcting the tr;ivelling expenses allowed to the storekeeper of the ordnance,
505-jio.
V.
Van Diemen's Lund. Keturn of the numbers and distribution of the effective loiee, offi-
cers, luMi-eommissiuned otlicers, and rank and file of the British army, includiiig colonial
corp-, in tach year since 181,-,, including artillery and engineers, Jpp. p. Ho. -Ifeturn
of all pay,alnwalK•e^, emoluments and salaries issued to olheers of tiie military, garrison,
medical and commiisarial stalf, ami of the ordnaiiee department, for the year 1832-33,
App. p. iji).
For other malter^ relating thereto — see also Aeeonntl,.^. Commissariat Department, f,.
Conlr^iels, .\. I'oueict's, -2. Corn. Depiits. Emigrants. Governors. Population.
Prorisians, 3. Uerenae. 1.3. Troops, r\. to.
Foui/irrs.
.AceounI'-
W.
W'akijield, Major .l«^epli. (Aiialv'is of his Evid.nee.)— I'aitieuhirs respecting the arduous
duty iiertoiined hy tlu' troops in New South Wales, 1 14-120 Strength of dt tacll-
inents, and iiuiiiIh r ot eoiiviels at king (ieorgeV Sound station, 123 Cause of one
sinnle soldier only heiii- left at some of the stations, 124— --Nature of the duly ot the
the~goveiiior's body-guard, 121), 127^ Extent of coastof New South Wales, 128,
War. Slv Citaileh. Culoniol Corpi. Militia, I. Troops, S.
Western Australia. See Aeeounl-^, |.
3. Sew Bninsniek,
4. N'fW South Wutts.
HiilthS, Piiil.li- :
1. lUrmndtt.
■2. Canada.
I. Bermuda:
Amount of e»tiinates for public works at Beriiuulii, Haij 437.
CannJit ■
'44
W O R
•S- O R [Military Establisluiient, 1835.
Works, PiMic—coiitiiwed.
*» Canada : ..111
«- r.^ „„ In r-inntl'v oblices officers of ilie commissarial bemt; (reqiieiitly pinploNcd
S"'C ^ ^n . IcbvTncre. ef tl,nxpenso of tl.at .Icpar.n.ent, Gnen ...50 Oi;''""..
3 Veil' Sruiisu'ick : • v u i
EMcni of the in.bru- work, for strenstbening tin- (.rov.ncc ot ^L■w Hrm.sw.ck.
ILn/ 1117.
V ^' f " ^'!!!!l!"m'rof Now South Wale. i. eonnee.ca u,.h .ho p.bhcbaiklu.g.
South Wales io lake ehar.se of the pubhc v.ork., -In/KT .jb.
See also ^.V-rwccr J>p«r.'»«^m'. 0;-,/«««cc. DeparUnenI, 3.
Y.
l'rti-/(f. See Government Yacht.
York. See Co/HW/;.<,san«( Department, 3. iWiW,»7/ C/,«<.
|1?
v».