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Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 f IF *' ^ ■"^ m'i'i IN CANADA'S NATIONAL t'AKK. IIV .1. JONES ItEI.I.. It was a happy thaiiifht tliat foun'l po-,sil.ilitic- In- pi.mh.Ml out t) his chirf expression in the Betting apart of n tliat flio prop.we.l iosim vatioi. was t.io portion of the mafrniticent sc.'iiory of small. Thf Mini.t.r cpucklv i,Masp.>(l the Rocky ifomtains as a C.'anmlinn National F'ark. The cierlit is largely dill' to the late Hon. Thomas White, Minister of the fruerior. When the . .. ^1' the itlea, ami tin- area of fli.' paik was e.xtend.rl to covei- :2(1() s.jn.ii" miles, the form hein;' ri'ctan,,'iilar, "Jli miles loriLT liv 10 wi.le. The lanl within existence of the wonderful hot si)rings these limits was withdrawn troin the at Banff l>ecnim' known, while the market, and any sales which ha 1 been Canadian racitic Uailway was under ma-le were cancVlled, while the j)ai ties ^ ;^'-^^ "^/f??^T^^TC IE ' llll« HIVRH .\Mli T"|N If.AKs constiuction, it was tlunight desirable to reserve a small area aronh-em|ited the spriie_'s were indiice-cade range, one iT whom.' peaks is th« highest in that part of the K 'ckies,^no'v-cippe I like t)ie f»wm HOTEL DU MINISTfiRE DES AFFAIRES fiTRANGfiRES, PARIS COMPTE RENDU DES SEANCES DU TRIBUNAL D'ARBITRAGE SIEGEANT A PARIS, 1893 VIII'^ PARTIE 22 JUIN 8 JUILLET REPORT OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE TRIRUNAL OF ARBITRATION CONVENED AT PARIS, 1893 PART VIII 22«" June — 8'" July CoUectio/v \ ,:,iJ*l 1.1*: 2>'A rUH L IV.ID/.LV M \(. \/.IXt.. Jiincfrtu jjnmp. It in iihiwiI front a Milo Cretk, with other mountain Htnam which l<-a|t.4 x thoii^iHiid feet strtuiiiw, cmrse throu^'lt th»- v Alleys uf ih»\vn its •i'li.'. (Jii aiiolhiT »i(le is tlie this wuinlLihsiid. In out- ili im-s.^iun Devil's Utail ^rdiip, wilii its >iin_Milrtr In tween thu ran^,"'s lirs l^ako Miime- Kick tup, jii-^tifs iiiLf the liKliuri iiaiiit', wiinkii, wliirh a iiithliv*.s tuiiL;iic hax of which i>i:vil s 111 ml is tt tiaii^lalioii. tninstririinil into Uevil's Ijik^ It in S4/^7V-, ^_^ ••• fy^L^y .f '1 r.'nv Kivta ^ u,iiv, (kuu i.iic m'..'liii)f hrauty and ^'ran- di'iir only i'i|uall<'i| |iy tho (ortina liuloiiiiti'N in th" .\ii>ti nMi 'I'yrol. Within ♦111' park li«' liftccn miles of tlio liow Itivcr, otii' o| the must hcanti- fill of tho i^tK ams to which tli>' Rocku- >,'ive list" Nino miles of this is dcop a)itifiil mountain stream, llows for six mil's tliiiiii;,'h (ho park, jolinn;,' tlie lluw in a poul at the I.M)t ot the beautiful Spiny lulh 'I'ho (ihost and ( 'rtscude i ivers, and Forty twelve inilea long and two wide. Close to thu railway in annther tlircTtion %xv tho Vermilion lakcn, three in nuulier, with some smaller pondH, thu home of the wild fowl. TbeiM watem are all itdiahited to a greater or leaBcr exteut by tro-it, which h*ve an iijKrATating way of iD*4pecting the fly witnout pro- ceclini; to that closer acquaintance with it which is expiicted from well- trained fish. Ihit the greatest interuiit centres around the hot spring Thayareei^ht in nuinl'ei, and form thn.'* group*. The two piincipal flow from th<* centre of Sulphur Mountain, eight hundred feet aliove the Bow River. The main one has a di!>^-harge of one and a half million gallons daily. The miwtcurioua > L\' CANADA S .XATIOXAl. PARK. 367 the Oftve WM formerly ha'i tlirotigh n hole in the roof, thiouj^h wliich ihesul- p)iurou.4 Hteam from tno hot siuing es- caped, bat the tunnel by wniclj the ovtrHow from the basin runs -jff lia-s been enlarfi^d so us to h>rm an uniler- ground entrance. While the hot sul- phur water bubbk-s up from below, fresh, coM water drops from above, -so that a hot plunge bath and n cold fliiower bath may Iw enjoyed at the same time. The temperature of the water varies at the diflerciit springs, ranging from !)o in the cavo to 120 at what is known as the hot springs Olo»;e to the cave is u pool, similar in •II respects to that in the cave, except that nature hati omitted the dome. Dressinc- rooms are attached to these two spnngn, where one may enjo}' a to cool. The park siipcrinteudi-nt has lieenexpi-rimcntiiig witli thnii. Snine Were placed in a iar^tcr pnul, which re- Cfives tlie overHow from tlic one they inhabit, and which is a lew decrees coldi'r. ThtTL' t.liey liavo grown to a laigersizc. Kioni this pool '^oMie were removed to aiiDther ovcrllow pool still cooler, aii.-^,^. 3W- nsaiM., i.\Kf: min.nk«.\nk.\. hot bath either in the open air or in the cave. A curious phenomenon is to be seen at tme of the springs, where it issues from the mountain .tiile. The little pool into which it flows is tilled with small tish, an inch or ho long. Where they come from is a mystery, but they are aalanianilers, and .seem specially adapt- ed to their surroundings. If placed in fresh water they die, and a like fate overtakes them when the sulphur water which they inhabit is allowed them, as by that means the tish may be protected; otherwise, what might be made a valuablu attraction will be destroyed. Sliould such proposal be carried out. dams will probably lie con- structed, converting marshes into lakes, promoting the healtldulness of the park, adding to its pietutesi(ueness, and proviiling means for fonning a()uariums, which, in conjunction with a museum, might be niado a valuable educational medium. One of the nio^ beautiful of the at- \ W'% ? ' , •* 3^S Tlili CAifADIAS MAiiAZlSE. tia«ti(,ris jiiosiiii.l Viy naniVf in tin- the lt)W lviv|.ray I'.illf, wlien- thi' How cltiy liii\f 1" t-n >,'iftiiti»lly wh-IihiI MW»y , llivi'i' tiiiiil>li'Mil»iiit 70 Ice I, iii ti -ii'iif-* Ifaviii;^ tlnsf ti;iiiii'-. ^tiiiiiini.' ■•iit, orcai. ii.!"'4, (i\\v tlio ifH-kN. uliicli tire iii/iimiufntsul tin- lii»iitii«>ii k >it Nnfim* «iiiiou-.ly tilftil Mti «il;,'i', tlic liiyern »m ii siiil|)i.,i. I> in;; |iaialli I witli the coiiim; i.l'tlu' 'I'lir iniin'ial winllli I'f tli.' IIi>oky -tii-iim All rxi'clliiit view of tliis Mountains Imsonlv hecii Iimii hnl upon ra-iaili' ii.av I"' liiiil lium the lialt'oniivs at its vi is' liinjc liut witli iIm' .-on- 'p.%i"%^ •^'4.^^^-} k'H K^' I.AKI I ■■! ivK, 1 I 111 I' l:i Ml T ipN >I'1 SfAP.. ot ilic <' I' I'. Initil. a> will ii^ fioMi stnictioii of till' C'anndinii Pacific IVail- tlu- loal aii/iMnl I'liniicl Mountain wny lias ciiie a cprtain cicLjreo ot (Ip- Aiiotlii r ciuiiisiiy is what i> known vi Idpnii'iit Within the liiiiitR of Uanti" as tfiu llouiliios. Tiny ronvjst of a I'aik, valn.ihle il*'poHits of anthracite nuihliii '•( piih.rs of \iiy haiil cioain- coal (no Itin;,' workud, Hinl at Anthra- coloifi loncnti-. frdiii >0 to l(Mi ft'it cite, the first station i-ast of Baiilf, ami lii;:li, wliiii -Mill! nil the haiik of within the park Innils, ipiito a ininini^ PPiP^T /V ( ./.\'. //' .y.iT/i x.t/. r. I ;>:/<. y>^j town is ■'i.iin;,'!!)^ up, \\ Iwii thf tii- tiiif will iir. ()iii|'li>li ill till' n-|irii u i» vain ti> pitili, t, l.ut ilitic must al- I'lcfi l> the . \ liiliiilll In.' I \|- llctic ..f li'lilli; II '.'(HI. I lii'lli' |ialll I. -Ills In till' lti|> mI' Tiiiiiiil \|iiiint;iiii, M tlM.ii-iiii.j l>\ ;il..,v.. II,.' villi. 'V, vv 111 111 !• il lli:lv,'llili('i Ml \ ii'W "\ M till- |)iii k i> iilitiiiiM'il. ' M is ■.aiiin:.' a'l'iliir.' I I 1 11 I 111). II stillllll I I Mils I'll till' liiKi' lui'l iiii'ill CI ii|i I II'' iJi'M . mill laii'i' -. { .in I 1' l.tilalll' .| \\ \\ hi. li t|,r iipl'i 1 I!. \v .'III. I tl Iianii- iii:^ \ 11 iiiiliun lalxi's n av 1" i'\|illetnehmeiit of tlu' h<-autiful driven. iSut when the piuk North-West .Mmmti il I'olice pnsci ves ii'^i'rve was imnle there were no roails. oiiler, a work almost ot siipi'reioi,'iilioii, Aliout ^1 "(O.OOO has Iweii so far ex- No intoNii'iitiiiLT !ii|iiois are iillnweil to |ii'iuli'ii on the park, SlO.OOO on sin- ht- nolil, exn pt to u'nests at tin' hotels. M'3^, anil most of the halance on loails. While much has heeii written aloiit I he ilrive aroiuul Tunnel Mountain is tlio lianll' National I'aik. no one is one of the most lieautiful. Noonewho more eiilhiisiastic in its praises (haii 'isitM the park sliould fail to take it. the Haioiiess .Maeilonaiii, wife ofOaiia- ( 'onsiilerahlu en^'ineeiiiii; skill has lm ItM.li I. \KI.. t'oikucrew, where a j^reat rise h.e! to '•« proviileil for in a nhort distance. The drives anuin 1 the tlat which lies betwi en Mount I'undle and the Bow, and that to Lake Minnewanka also re- veal many W'auties. If the vi'^itor Ithasal ways hei'ii a favorite resort with Inr, and she spends more or less of her time (here evi-rv year. It is no doubt due t'- ;mt pinional inlluence that par- liaiuent hiisl.ceii willing' to appropriate money for its improvementand nminti n- anee It i« liternyy The I'eopU 's I'ark. i>t It I « ,, I I — I8s;) — ;{.■)() (lalod November (lie 1st iiiid addressed liy Sir Julian I'aunecfolo lo llie Mar(|iiis ol'Salisljury — u Idler llial Dfcoui'se we had mi aceess Id and did luil se(^, until il appeared In I he Hrilish Case and I shall read hul a lew words t'roni il. II was an aeeuunl ol' the lirsl interview thai he had with Mr Itlaine on this suhjcet when he lirsl arrived in the Cniled Slales as Minister of (ireal Hrilain under inslrui-lions to renew Ihe nei;oiiati(>ns will) regard to the Kehrini; Sea. lie reporlsihe interview. 1 lost tid \\u\i', :ir(t'r my arrival liore on I tie 1,'itli alio, This interview you will see took place *.• days alter he rea(dn^d Was- hington. Ill S(>eliinj.' iiii iiiliTvii'w wilti .Mr tilaiiii' on llii> Iti'liriiijr's Sim (|Ui'sliiiii. .\nd then he |iro('eeils lo slale what look plaee and I need not reiid il all, lint in rejiK to whal Mr Hlaine said". t ulisrrvcil lliiil lliis :ili|HMi-Oil lil\c' ail assi'riioii ol' till' niarr linu^uiii which 1 I'cmlil lianlly hi'licvo would hi' ri'vivi'tl al Ilic pri'scul ihiy liy hisliovi'iiiiiiciil nr any nlhi'r; lo whic'li he ro|ilii'il Ihal tiis (lovoriiiiii'iil liail iiol olTicially assi-rli'il such a claim and Ihcrcrnrc il was nmicccss.-iry In discuss il. .\s a mailer ol' Tail llicrc had liccn no iiilcrt'crciicc willi any Canadian vi'sscls in lichriiij^'s Sea cxccpl siicli as were round eiiffagcd in Ihe ca|iline and dcslruclioii ol' riir-seals. Itiil liis (loveriinieiit claim Ihe exclusive rinhl ol' Seal lisliery, wliicli IhcUniled Slales and Russia hd'orc llieiii. Iiail |iiaclically enjoyed lor poiioralions willioul any atlciniil at inlerrereiiee rroin any oiler coimlry. Ttie I'ln'-scal was ii species mosi valiialile lo maiikiiid. .\iid Ihe lieliriiiir's Sea was ils lasl slroiij^hold. The I'liiled Slales liail lioiipht Ihe Islands ill Ihal sea. to wliiidi lliese crealiires |icrioilically resoii lo lay llieii youni;' and now (lanaihaii lislieniien sicp in and slaili-'hler Ihe seals on llieir passaire lo the islands, willioul laKiiii; heed of llii' waniiiii.'s t:iven liy Canadian nillcials llieiii- selves, lli.il Hie resiill iiiiisl iiievilahly hi' Ihe exlormiiialion of Ihe siiecics. 'Phis was an ahiise, not only reprelu'iisihle in ilsell' and opposed lo Ihe iiileresls id' maii- liiiid, hul an iiilraclion ol' Ihe rii;lils of Ilic L'liiled Slales. II inllicled, morcoM'r a seriiiiis injury on a neij;lihoui'iiii; and Iriendly Slale, liy depriving;' il of Ihe I'mils id' an iiidiislry on which vasi sums ol' money had heeii expended and which had lout;' hecii piiiMicd I'xelnsively, and lor Ihe iiciieral heuelil. The case was so slroiii;- as lo iici'essilale iiieasiires ol' seU'-dcrence I'or Ulc vindicalion ol' Ihe rij;hls ol' Ihe rnik'il SI. lies and Ihe iiioleclion ol' lliis valiiahle lisheiy hoiii dolriiclion. .Now. Sir, il'\ou care lo consider Ihe nlleily inimalerial iiueslion whe- ther Ihe position of the I iiited ^lutes as asserted li\ its C.onnsel in tliis trial dill'ers tVoni Ihal that was earlier taken hy Mr lUaine. 1 ask yon to diseriniinale il'yoii can, except Ihal Ihe discriininalion ini;;iit he in ra\onr oI'Mi' Itlaine as reported In Sir .Inlian ranncet'ole in respect lo lan.miai;e — I ask \ou to disciiininate hetwcen Ihal position then lakiMi In Mr lUaine at till' oiitsel of these ncfiociations and Hie proposition Ihal I have endea- voured lo slale lo \ou to-day as liein,^' the propositiini and the only one that this case presents, lie };i\es lh'> remainder of Ihe interview which I need not read — il is hel'ori' you — and I onlv.as corrolioralini; whal I said a lillle while af;o ahoul the nniniporlance of these seizures, will ivad from the concin liiifi parafjniph of Ihe Idler : As rciiards compensation, il' an aiireeiucul should he arrived al, he t'ell sure Ihat I — l8o{ — his flovernnioiil would not wisli tlial private individuals who had acted bdiin fide in the hclicr thai Ihoy weie exercisluy; their lawful rights should be thi; victims of a grave dispuli' bi'twceu two i,'real countries, whiih had happily bi^i'n adjusted, lie was not without hope therefore, thai (he wishi's 1 had expressed might he mel. and that all might he arranged in a manner which should involve no humiliation on ci- ther side. His tone was most friendly throiiglioul and he niaifesled a strong desire to let all quesL! ns of legal right and inlernational law disapp(!ar in an agreement for a closo season, which he hclieves to he urgently called for in the common interest. There is a report of the language ol'lhal dead statesman, coming lo us al secoini liand llirougli llic eminent representative of (ireat IJritain in the I'niled Stales, Sir Julian I'uuncefote, and publislied in their evi- dence. Surely, no one who has his reputation of heai'l need lo hhisli for the record thai is made of Ihe position tlial he look in thai case; and if llie ( niled Slates have been unfortunate in this mutter, it is liiat Ihey did nol adhere as Uussia did, firmly and resolutely, to ground thai was unans- werable, and never have j precepi of scriplure. " .\gree wilh lliine adversary (piicv kly while liiou arl in Ihe way with him lesl the adversary deliver you to the judge". .Mr liayard, a large-miniled far seeing man, a man of Ibat sagacity which is Ihe sagacity of wisdom and nol Hie sagacity of cimning, saw at once that instead of entering inlo Ibis endless debate aboni Ihe extension of abslraci princi|iies lo Ibis case it were far better for two nations of the same; race and blood, and having a common inlercsl and a common law lo agi'ec lo sellle Ibis dispule and lo leave Ihe abstraction to such fulm-e genei'alions as should be unforlnuate enough to be called upon lo sellle Ihem. Therefore leaving it and pulling it aside, not foi' a moment receding from it, his snggeslion was " Cannol we agree? You arc as much inlluenced by [\\i\ didates of humanity, and justice as we arc — Your inleresi is Ihe same ours. You desire to do right of course, as we do, h'l is agree. lie made Ibat |)roposal not only lo (ireat IJrilain i)ul lo lUissia and lo Japan, who are interested in Hie mailer of Ihe seals, and lo various other nalions who are nol. I need not read again the letter he addressed lo .M. Vignaud, Ihe Secretary of the liCgation in Paris, and whii'h in the same words, copies of which, or duplicate originals ol' which, wen; seni lo Ihe olber .Ministers, projiosing Ihal in this work of huinanily and justice we siiould all concur, and waive Ihe queslion of Ihe United Slates lo assert itself under these circnmslances. Now I want lo read one Idler that has nol been before read, which was from .Mr Lolhrop, a very able .Vmerican lawyer who was men Minis- ler of the United Slates, at St I'elersbm'gh, addressed lo the Secretary of Stale in response lo this coumiunicaliou asking for Hie concurrence of nalions in these measures. II is lo be found in llie lirsl v(diunc of the United Slates' .\p|)endix, page I'.t2, and is dated December Htli 18H7. .■V Sir, I liavc lilt.' lioiKii- to tiaiisiiiil licrcwilh llii; Iranslalioii of a nolo from llio l"orrif;ii urilci', rcccivcil al IIm' li'^'alinn vi'sli'iday, on lln' liroposilioii ot' tlir- Uiiitcil Slalcs for ail iiiliTiialiniiiil a^'ri'i'incnl Imicliiiij.' tin: caplnii' of seals in Dcliriiig Sea. The canieslncss IVIl here in the iiialliT i.* plainlv iiidiiatecl by Ihe lantruag(> of Ihc iiole, which speaks of unrestrained seal-hiinliii}; as a thing which nol only tlircalcns Ihe wellheiiii,' hill even Ihc exisleiice of Ihe people of the exlrenie iioilh- easl coast. This language leproriils a vi(!w which 1 have hearil here in couvei'salioii, of course nol oriicially. ami wliieli is siihstanlially as follows ; — The seal lisheiy on our Uiluing coasts is thi' only resource oiu" people tlioio — ISiilt - liavi'; it liirnislu's :ill llii^ nccpssarics nt lilV : willimit it Ihny pcrisli. Now, iiiterna- liotiiil law coiiccik's lij L'vcry people cxrliisivojurisdiclioTi over a zone along ils coasis sufliciciil, for ils prolcctlon ; and llie iloclrino of llic equal rifrlils of all nations on (ho lii|Lrh seas rests on the idea that it is consistent with the conunon weifaro and not destinctivc of any essential rights of iuhahitaiits of the neighhoring coasts. Senator Morgan. — Who is that wrilin;;;? Mr Phelps. — .Mr Lolliro|), tlie Minister at lliiit lime at St Petersbiirgli. The President. — Those arc Hiissian views. Mr Phelps — Vcs. Senator Morgan. — I liioiif;hl he was (iiioliiiK Hiissian expressions. Mr Phelpa. — Vcs, lie is staling- liie hiissian views, without quoting any parlioniar ian{;tiaf,'C. The Icllcr he refers to is cnrlosed in iiis note, and is written i)y the Uussian .Minisler of Foreijjii .Mfairs. Such coninidU right i, uiidei' iinhlic law, resi on general consent, and it would be absurd to aflinn that such consent hail been given where its necessary result would bo the absolute destruction of one nr nmre of the parties. Ilence the rule cannot be applied blindly to an unforesi'en case, and these alleged eoinmon rights must rightfully bo limited I" cases where they may be excicised consistently with the welfare of all. ItebringSca partakes largely of the eliaracter of an inclosedsea; two great nations own anm Ihe United llebring uage of ol only ' norlh- Now the note of Mr de (iiers is enclosed i)y Mr Loliiro|i in litis coin- mnnication. ! will read il. It is very brief. .\li' Minister. — Mr Wiirts, under date of .\ugiist 2'2 ^September i}, was good enough to communicalc to mu the views of tho Government of the United Stales of .Vnniriea upon the subject of the ilesirableness of an understanding, among the governments concerned, for the regnlaliou of the taking (In r/iaxsi'': of tlu^ fur-seal {loiilri'.ij in tli(! Hehring Sea. in older that an end might Ik; put to those inconsiderate practices of extermination which threaten to dry up, at their source an important branch of international commerce. We concur entirely in the views of the Oovernmonl of the United Stales. Like it we also have bei'n for a long linn' considering what means could be taken to remedy a state of things which is prejudicial not only to comiiiorce and to revenue, but which will soon work disastrous residts. not only to the well-being but even to the existence of our [leoplc iu the extreme Northeast. The esta- blishment of a reascmablo rule, and of a lawful system in the use {V'-xphi'ilutinn) of the resources, which furnish their oidy industry, is for those people of vital importance. The piessing interest which the Imperial (iovernnient has been thus called to consider had already suggested to il the idea of an international agreement, l)y which Ibis interest niighl tinil it-; most ellicienl protection. II is by this way that the dilforent questions involve I cm be best resolved, and among which there exists, in our opinion, a close connection. 23:1 - 18liil — It was nflerHie wrilinfj of lliiil li-llor of Mr liayiinl's lo Mr Vij;iiaii(l, rorlainly Itoforo i( was roccivod at lln^ Imu'cI^'ii ol'lici> ofiircal Itrilaiii, lliat llic Ifllor 1 liavu Itelorc allmlod In from Lord Salisltiiry caiiii' in wliiili lor llie (irsl lime, as far as he was ronceriu'd, lli()U|,'li il, had Irhmi menlioiiod hcfoi'o hy Lord ld(h'sli'i^h ht^ iiilrodiiced Ihis discussion of (lio ohl lliis- sian prchMisioiis, — llie Icllcr lo which my ioarnod friend coinphiiiis thai Mr Itayard did iiol ri'|ily. In Ihc nicaiilimc, howovcr. which is proiia- hy one reason wiiy Mr iiayard did nol Ihink il necessary lo enter inio dial dis|iule, he hiid Iransmilled lo Ihe (iiiled Stale's Minister at l^ondon insli'uclions to approacii the Itristisii (iovernmeni, and to ask for a Con- venlion hy wiiich llie siNds nii};hl lie prolecled, nol upon Ihe };ronnd lliat the (iovernmeni had not a ri^ihl lo prolerl itself hnt upon tiic };i()niid I have slated n|ion which il was far hellei' lo reach llial resnll.as he was sanguine in Ihe helief. and juslilied in tiie iielief as Ihe (!venls showed, tiiat il wdnld he immedialely accorded by Great Mrilain. W'iial was Ihe resiill of thai'.' There was a iillle delay, explained in Ihe correspon- dence, on Ihe part of Ihe Minislerin London on accoLMil id' Ihe ahsem'e of Lord Salisbury, pei'haps in Ihe helief llial such lhin;;s woidd he Ix-ller discnssed pcrsor'illy Ihan on paper; i)ul when Ihey niel — when Ihe Mi- nisler and Loi'd Salisbury met, Ihe whole niulter was settled in one inlcrview ; a second was nol necessary. The pro|)osilion of Ihe I'nilcd Stales for a close lime in Ihe killing of Ihe seals between Ihe Isl of Apiil and Ihe Isl of Novendicr sniisequcnily modilied, I may say, lo Ihe I'Hh of October, wasaj;reed lo; and there on Ihe map I'oiutin^ , are Ihe boun- daries lo which it was oxiended. I am speakint^' of it orij;inidly; il was eulai'ged aflerwards. Metween Ihe I'niled Slale's Minister ami Lord Salis- bury, an .\p;r'cement covering the water comprised wilhin llio^v lines aiul excluding wilhin thai limit all Ihe seals killed belween Ihe Isl of April and Ihe I'ilh (d' Oclober was agreed lo. I do nol mean lo say Ihal a Treaty was made; bul il was agreed Ihal one should b(> made. Now, my learned friend, Mr llobinsnu, yerslerday alluded to what he Ihoughl proper lo call the misnnderslanding belween Ihe minisler and Lord Salisbury, — Ihe agreement Ihal I have referred lo, wliich my lein'- ned friend thinks was a misuuderslandiug. If il was, il would n(d piny much of a part here; and, therefore, I may usefullyenough pause to eon- sidei' whether il was a misuuderslandiug, or a very explicit anil diiect underslanding on bolh sides. My learm^l IViiMid, vvilb a sort of compas- sicm for Ihc weakness of Lord Salisbury, which, I |tresume, his Lordship does nol feel Ihe neci' id', inliniiiles Ihal nobody could be loss informed of mailers eonnecled with seals Ihan Lord Salisbury; and he was Ihal kind of statesman Ihal when the proposal was made ho would fall imme- diately upon the neck of the L'niled Stales' .Minisler and .say . — " If y all means; auylhing Ihal you waul in a Treaty between Iwo great nations, I shall be only too happy lo agree to. Let ns swear elei'nal friendship ", like the Iwo strangers that met in a town. Well, those who know lliat statesman do nol need to be told that his weakness does not lie in that * 1 — iStll — (lir(H'li()ii, llo (Iocs not spunk liol'oro lie lliiiil»s; lie Ihiiiks lu'luro he speaks, lie does nol iimke ('.onvciilioiis Unit Itiiid his coiialiy, or Ajiree- iiieiils of iiny kind lo l)ind iiis eonntry, unlii lie is ipiile sure dial he nn- derslamlswhal lh(?y mean, and wliahiecessily or pi'opriety exisis Corliieni. And I am jiioinf; to lukc the Iroubh? to show you thai Lord Sahsbury did perlecllv understand what he was about, and thai in llie eoiirse of the ne^^oliation, tliat eontinned about the details of tiiis up to llio time when it disappeared never havinfi; Iteen recalliHl l)y him or l)y (Ireat llrilain unlil llie time when the United Stales made up their mind liiat it would not p) any further: that in the meantime he had all the information from all (piarters that existed, and that at no lime did he intimate tlud he had been loo fast in niakiii}; this agreement — thai ho hud ailed without knowledf^e or upon mis-information, and that after he had heard from Canada and reeeived the oflieial eommeni upon it and protest against it l^whieh I shall alludi; loi, he did not then put himself for a moment with the United Slates upon any otiier ground than this — that time was wanted, l)ut that the eonventioii would lie earried into eU'ect. I shall prove this by reading; some few of tliesc letters that l)enr direelly upon tliat — not ut great length — so thai it will be seen exactly how dreat IJritain in a manner most honorable to herself, i>nd to the statesman who had eiiargi! of her Foreign Affairs, met this proposal of the I'nited Stales. The teller of .November 12th 1887 from the United States' .Minister at page 171 of the Isl Volume of the United Slates' .Vppendix states the .Minister's account to begin with, and is the first thing that appears in the correspondence to show what look place. He says : Iti'fuirinj;- In yiuir instniclioiis nunijjci'cd (iSo. nl' .Vaj^'usl liUh 1S87, I liavo now lo s;iy llial owiuf; lo tiiu ahscnci; fniiu London of Loid Salisliury, Secretary olSLitc lor l"oriM};n .Ml'iiirs, il lias nol Iipimi in my puwi-r lo ohiain liis allcniion lo lln! sub- Jccl niilil ycslorilay. 1 liail IliiMi an liiti'rvii'w wllh iiiin, in wliicli I proposal on lln' part ol'lluHlo- voriiiiii.'nl of lln; Uiiilccl Slates llial by inulaal agreiMticnl ol' lliu Iwo Governinenis a code olivynlalions slioiild bu adopted for llie preservation of [\w. seals in Bolirinj,' Sea from destrnclion at improper times and by improper means by llic citizens of eilbei- eonntry; siicb anTceinonl lo be entirely irrespective of any i|ueslions of con- tli<'liiii: jmisdielion in lliose waters. His Lordsbip proinply acipiiesred in lliis proposal on llie part id' (ireat liiilain and snni;('sled llial I should iditain from my fioveniinenl and snbmil to bini a sketch ol a system (d' regulations which wonld be adui|iiate for llie purpose. I have therefore to request that 1 may be furnished as early as possible wilh a ilrafl of snch acode as in your judf-'inent should be adopted. I wonld also su):t.'est Ihat copies of it he furnished at llio same lime lo the Ministers of the United Statics in Germany, Sweden and Norway, llnssia, I'lancu, and Ja|iaii, in order llial il may he under consideration by the (ioverninents of those countries. .\ mutual agreement belween all the Governments interested may (bus be reached at an early day. Then on the next page, under date of February 7lh, .Mr IJayard had to lake time lo answer the rc(|uest of llie British (lovernmenl as to what these Uegulations should be. The Uegulalious themselves that I have alluded I 0, come a little later — il was only agreed at the first interview Ihat a code — IHti-i — should ho ii(lo|ilo(l and UiulJiiiliul Sillies wore invited lo propose one. Here isllieletlerl'VhriiiiryTlli IVoni MrHuyardllialcDVcrsllircopatiics.iuid wiiicli would usoCully repay perusal. I shall only he ahle lo read some e.xlracls from it, iiii'.cssii fuller reading should he desired hy my learned friends. Sir Richard Webster. — 1 think it has all heen read, hut I will nolask you to read any more. The Trihunal iiave it hefore them. Mr Phelps. - If it lias heen read I do not know that I eare to read any |iart of it. Sir Richard Webster. — U was read hy .Mr Carter. Mr Phelps. — I do not wish to repent anything. Well, the snhstance ot the letter (which perhaps if it has heen read I should not take up time loread again) , is to state these leading facts ns Ihey appear before you — the migration of the seals: the period of the year; the great slaughter of the females and the death of the young; the extermination lo which it conducted, and various other considerations, and embracing — this is the important point — a proposal for Ihese Hegnlations. That is the substance of it. I v'll read this passage : Tiicdiily way oroliviiilinjr llic liiincnlalilo rcsiill al>ove pruilictcd appears to 1)0 by 111!' United States, Great Uritain, and other iiilerosliMl powers lakiuf; ronccrled action to prevent their citizens orsuiijects from Jiiliiii}; fur-seals willi lirearnis, or destructive weapons, nortli of ;iO" of north latitude, and helween KiO" of longitude west, and tTO" of lon}:itu(le east from (Ireeiiwiih, during the period intervening het- ween April l.'ith and November I si. 1 think 1 said before from the 1st of .\pril — it would seem to he by this, .\pril the l.'ilh; we shall encounter that again. The letter conti- nues : To proveiit the killing within a marini' belt of 40 or iiO miles from the islands during that period would ho inodectual as a preservative measure. m .\nd so forth. Then comes a letter from the minister to Mr liayard, on page 175, in which i'e says : 1 have received your instruction n" "Si, under date of February 7, relative to the Alaskan seal tishoiics. I immediately addressed a note to Lord Salisbury, inclosing for his perusal one of the priiitiid copies of tlu; instruction, and recpiesting an ap- pointment, for an early interview on the subject. 1 also sent a note to the llussian Ambassador, and an interview with him is arran- ged for the 2lsl instant. The whole matter will receive my immediate and thorough attention and 1 hope for a favorable result. Meanwhile I would ask your consideration of the manner in which you would propose to carry out the regulations of these lisheries thai may be agreed upon by the countries interested. Would not legi lation be necessary ; and, if so, is there any hope of (d)taiiiing it on the part of Congress ? .•\nolher letter from the same to the same on the same page of Febru- ary 2oth, 1888, says: — Referring to your instructions, numbered 78-2 of l''ebruary 7, 1888, in reference to the .\laska seal fisheries, and to my reply thereto, numbered 690, of February road I - ls(i;i — IS, I havi^ llio honor to inform joii lliiit I havo since hail iiilcrviows on llir suhjecl wilh l.oril Salislinry anil with Mr ih; Staal, thi^ Klissian Ambassador. I.oril Salisliiirv assciils In your |iri>|iiisill(>n to I'slalilisli, ljy iiitiliial arrangcmont jjctwi'iMi llii^ (iiivrrnmrnts iiiti'rrsli:(l, a chwd linii' for fur-seals, hclwisi'n .April l.'i ami .Nnvcinlxu' I, and lichvi'iMi KiO" of longiludo wesl, and tTO" of longilmlo east, in llle Di'liring Sea. .\ii(l ill Hull loltor — wliclliiT l)\ omission, or how it liiippcncd — llicrc is no soiilliiM'ii lioiindiK y staled. Ill) will alsij join |;ie L'niled Slales fiovernnieni in iiuy pruvenlive measmes it may lie llioufilil best In idopl, liy orders issued lo Hie naval vessels in llial rej,'ion of llie res])ortive Governno'lils. I have tills nioriilii^' lide^Maplieil ynu for addilional pririli'd copies of inslnii'lions 7S-J for Ilie use of Her .Majesly's Governmeiil. Till' Uiisiian .Vmbassador coneurs, so far as his personal opinion is concerned, ill llie propriety of the proposed measures for the iiroteclion of Hie seals, and has proMiisiMl lo communicate at once with his fjovnrnnienl in rejjard lo jl. I havo fni'- nislieil hini wilh copies of instructions "Si for Hie use of his (iovernnicnt. Tiion there is the reply of Mr hayaid on the 2iid of .Mareii coiiliiuiiii}; the siihjeel. It need not he read ; hiil I will read Mr White's ietlor. The .Minister liaviiiji; returned home lein|iorarily, tiie subject was lel'l in the hands of Mr W'iiile, wiio hecaine cliarf^e, to carry out these details which had heen siihstanlially agreed on; and Mr While writes lo Mr Hayard on .April 7lh ISH8. Heferriiij.; to your inslnielions. .Villi so I'oi'lh. i have lliu honor lo acquaint you thai I received a private nolo from the Mar- quis of Salisbury this morning statini; lliat at Ihe reijuesl of Hie llussian Ambassa- dor hebad a|ipoinloii i nieetini.'at the I'oreifrn Office iiirxt Wednesday, lllh instant " to discuss Ihe qiieslion of a close limo for the seal llsliery In HehriiiK Sea, " and expressinna hope lliat I would make it convenient lo be present, and I have replied that 1 shall bo liap|iy to alteiid. Then there is Mr While's teller lo .Mr I. yard on .\pril 20lh 1888, on page 179 of the same hooU. He s|)eaks lirsl of having met the Marquis of Salisbury and M. do Staal and then says : M. lie Staal expressed a desire, on behalf of his Government, to include in the area to he protecli'd by the convention the Si'a of Okliolsk, or at least that portion of it in which Itobbeii Island is siliialeil, there being, he said, in that rejiion large num- bers of seals, whose destructluli is Ihreateiied in the same way as those in Heliring Sea. He also urged that measures be taken by Hie iiisorlioii of a clause in the [iro- |)Osed convenlion or otherwise, for prohibiting Hie importation, by merchant ves- sels, into Ihe seal protected area, for sale therein, of alcoholic drinks, lirearms, giiii|iowiler, and dynamite. Lord Salisbury expressed no opinion with regard to the latter proposal, but, with a view to meeting the llussian riovernmont's wishes respecting the waters surrounding llobben Island, he suggested that, besides the whole of liebriiig Sea, • he sea of Okhotsk and the Pacilie Ocean north of north latitude 17° should bo included in the proposed arrangement. Then you gel (if Mr While is correct and we shall see whether he is or not soon), the Southern line of this previously indicated area extend — IMIU — to llio wosl, 1111(1, l)\ llio a|)|iiiroiil ci)ii! laiix(iii}{)!, I slioulil lliiiik nxiciiik'il to llii) casl — ■ tcrliiiiily li> llic wt'sl. And Micro i-* iiiuillicr iullur wliicli I will ivI'im- Id uIhuiI llial. The President. — Voii will como It) the t-asl a lillle laler. Mr Phelps. — Vos. The President. — ^<>ii say llicro is anolhor Icllor.' Mr Phelps. — Vt-s. riiun lie su\s : I I'l'l'i'i'i'i'il III llii> riiiiiiniiiiiriiliiiiis ali'i'nily iiiadi' liv Mr I'lii'lps im lliis ituhject lo Lord Salishiii'.v, ami said llial I slimilil In' uliligcd In ii'Iit Id ,\im lln' iii'iiiiusals wliicli liadjiisl lii'i'ii iiiaili', lii'lni'i' >'.\|iii'>>ih^: an upliiliMi willi ri'^ard Id lln'iii. I liuvr ai riiidlii;:lv llio lnniiii' |ii ask I'lir iiislriirliiiiis in ii'lcri'iii'i! Iain<'. Moaiiwliili' lln^ Maniiiis nf Sallslnirv proiiilsi'd to liavi' pi'i'iiarcil a (halt coiivuii- tiun for siibinissioii tu lln^ llnssian ciiihassadni' niid In luvsidl', i sliall Ujso no liino ill lurwai'diiiK' vtin a lopv ul' litis ducuiiiciil wlieii icccivi'd. I liavi> (iiiiiltcd a |iMrii^'i'a|ili in Mr While's lellor. that I should have read. .\l Ww ImiIIoiii of pajje IT'.I lu; says : His loi'dsliip inliiii.'ili'd I'lii'llic'iniori' lliat llji'jii'riod |iro|iosi'd hy llu^ I Jiili'il Slates for a closi! lime, .\piil l.'itli In Niivcinlii'r Isl, inijtiil inli'i'lcrc wilh Ilic liadi' liiii;.'nr than alisolulDly i ssaiv lor tin' proli'ction ol' llii' seals, and he siij,'f;i'sti;(l Uclo- Lier Isl, inslcad ol a inuntli IuIiT, as lliu turniinalioii ol lln' pi'i iod olsi'al proli'dion. Then .Mr Hayard replies lo .Mr While. Tlu^ leller is on itap' 180 of llie same Imoli, under date of May Isl IH8H. Your dis|i,il(h n" Ti.'i ol' llic -Jdlli iilliino >latini.' tliu rusnll ol' your inli'iviuw Willi Lord Salisliiiry and llii' Itii-sian I'inliassador ndativi; to tin' [irotecticin of seals in Itidiriiif.' Sua, and ri'i|iiL'slinf.' finllicr iiislnictimis as to their proposals, lias heoii received. As you have alre.idv lii'eii inslriieled, the lleparliiient does not idijeet In the iiK liision of llie sea ol'ljkholsk. or so iiiiieh of il as may he iieeessary, in Ilie arran- (.'(■nienl lor Ihe prolecliun of the seals. Nor is il lhoii>:lil ahsoliituly iiijeessary lo insist on Ihe extension of Ihe close season till the Isl of .Voveiiiher. (tnly siieh a |ieriod is desired as may he re(|iiiri.'d for the end in view, lint in ordiM' Ihat success may he assured in llie oll'ortsof the various Govorniiients inle- rested in Ihe prolcclioii of the seals, il seems advisable to lake Ihe IJitli of Octo- ber instead of the 1st as Hie dale of the close season, alllioujrli, as I am now advised the Isl of Nnveinher would he safer. The sunnestion inadi^ by Lord Salisbury llial it may be iieci'ssary to bring ollior Uuvernmi.'iils than the fniled Slates, Ureal llritaiii. and Itussiainlo lln' arrange- ment has already been met by the aelioii of Ihe Ueparlenii'iil, as I have liitherlo in- formed you. At the same lime Ihe Mivilalioii was sent lo Hie British liovernment lo ncgolialu a conveiilion for seal protection in Itidiring Sea. a like invitation was e ended lo various other [luwers, which have' without exception returned a I'avura- b response. 'n order.lbercfoiv, that tin? plan may be carried mil, Ihe convention pro|)oscd L ocn till! L'niled Stales, (ireat Britain, and llnssia should conlain a clause provi- di for the subse(|ueiit adhesion of oIIkm' powers. "hen there is a sentence about (ire arms and liquor whieh is imma- Ic' d to the present discussion. Mr Whie then writes lo Mr IJayiird on the 20th of June 1888. it is on page 181 : 1 have Ihe honor to inform you that 1 availed mvself of an early opportunity to i — iR«r) — a('i|niiiiit III'' Mai'i|iiii nl' Sali^liiiry iiml tlm lliisshin iiinlia'^s.iilni' nl' l|ji> i'i'i'i'||it nf \iiiif iii-lriK Ijipii-t iMiiiilii'ird Nili, cil' May ilnl. Tliiil is lliu lust It'll' r I iviiil : Aiicl sliui'lly al'liTwaiils iMav III Hit lixi'i'lli'iiry ami I i-alii'ij lop'tlirr al llio |''(>ii'i).'ii tllllri' 1(11' till' |>iii'|ii>'lii|i till' Irl'lli'* III llii! |iin|MiM'l>ili y liail jiliiliji'rl woiilil slmilly lii' i'diwaiil I tn l.ninliiii, anil i'\|iri"<>iii^' a li'ijii' llial |ii'iiiliiiL' lln' arrival nf lliat iloi'iiiiicnl n.i I'lirlln'r >li'|>s wciiild lie laUrii ill till' iiiatirr li.\ lli'i Maii'>ty's (iuvrniiiii'iit. Am! sii I'lii'lli. Now I liii'ii ri'iiiii lliis Aini'rii'aii I'viiii'iici^ In sinnc Ictlci's llial iirn In III' riiiiiiil ill llii' siinii^ Ihii'ii viiliiiiii' iil' tiir Iti'ilisli \|i|ii'iiili\ riiiiii NNJiit'h I have lii'cii I'l'aiiiii^' lii'liii'i'. I liavi^ slmwii llii^ Tiiliiinal ilii'i'aiisi' I atlficli sii iiiiK'li iiii|iiii'liinn' III Iliis llial I think il uii^lil In iu^ ('li'ai'l\ |iiM'r('i\x'il wlii'llii'i' lliis\\a> a iiiisiiiiili'islaiiiliii^' nra iiii(lei'.staiiiliii^i, wlial view was I'lili riaiiii'il ill I'l'^'ai'ii In il. anil wlial was nnili'i'sloml almiil it. Iiy llit> Aiiii'riraii i'i>|ii'i'si'iilalivi>s in Loniion, anil tiii'iui^Hi Ilium. Ii\ tiii' liiiloH Slalt's (iiiM'iiiini'nl al iiunit'. .Now I ri'lrr lo a ii'llor from llic Mai'(|uis of Salisliury lo Sir \\. Muricr and also to Sir Ijuncl Wcsl liii- Itrilisli Mi- nisli'i' jtl W'asliin^inn. A iliijiiirali' nl' Iliis li'llcr sci'nis In U;\\c lioi-n sunl mil. niio In Sir linlii'i'l Mnriri' aiiil Mil' nllii'i' In Sir jjoni'l Wi'sl. II is lo III' rniinil al |ii> j! I'.Mi nl' liii' :>i'ii vniiiiiii' nl' llii' Iti'ilisli A|i|i('nili\ In llin Casi'. Sill, Till' llii^-iaii Amliassailur anil lln' I'liili'il Stall's' r,liai;;i'! iTAIVairi's ralii'il upnn iiir this aClrrnoiiii In ilisciiss tliu (iiii'slinii of lln- sral lislii'iirs in Itrliriii^'s Sra, which hail 1 ii hidiifthl iiilo |iiiiiiiini'iicr liy tlir I'i'criit actimi nl' thr IJiiti'il Stall's. The L'liili'il Statos" flnvL-riiiui'iil had rxpri'ssi'd a dpsiro llial snnu' af-'ruomuiit should 111' arrived at hi'lwocn lln' lliri'i' finvcriniiiMils I'nr tin' |iiir|insi' nl' |irnhihiliiig llii' laiiiihirr ol" till' srals durin;,' tlio linii' nl' hri'i'diiii:; and, al my ri'i|iit'st, M. do Slaal had nlitaini'd inslriirliniis I'rnni his llnvi'miiii'iit mi thai i|iii's|inn. M. (If Sl;ial. yon will ri'i'olli'rl, Sir. was llin Hussinn .Vmlmssador : Al this pri'liiiiiiiaiy disrussinn il was di'ridi'il pro\isiniially, in nrdrr In I'lii'iiish a basis I'm' iirf;iilialinn, and wilhmil dolliiitivi'ly pji'il-ini; mil' {invrriinii'iits. thai till' span' In hi' covnrod hy Ihr prnposnd Cmivenlinii shmihl hi,' Ihr sou hi'twi'rn Amrrira and lliissia north nl' tin' ITIli (Ii'l'I'ci' nl' latiliidf ; — llial ^ivcs till' (Milirc soiillicrn lini" — that llic cinsi' liiiii' shoulil rxtuiid t'roiii Iho 1,'ilh ol' April In thn Isl Nnvi'nihi'i", llial was writlen hel'oru Mr Hayard's supf^i.'slod inodilicaliun llial lie would lake llie i.'lf October — that diiiin,!? that limo the slaiifihlfr nf .ill seals should be forhiddon ; and ves.scls enga^'pil in il should he liahle In si;izui'(' hy the oriiisni's ol'any nl' Ilir Ihroo Powers, and shmild be taken In llio [lort of their n\vn nalimialily I'or cniidi'iunalinii; Ihatjthe tratlir in arms, alrohol, and pnwdiT should In' prohihili'd in all tin; islinds of tlinso si'as; and thai as snon as Ihi' three Pnwers had cnnrluded the Cmivenlinn, they slimild jnin in submitting il I'or the assent nl' Ihc other Maritime Powers nl' the nnrtlicrn seas. — 1860 — Till' I'liid'd Stall's" (',liarm> ilAllaires was i>\oi'e(linj.'ly I'arnosl in pn-ssiiij,' on lis llii> iniporlancc of disiiatcli on ai'Cdunt ol' the iiu'iuiccivaljle slaughtci' that hail bei'n and was still goiuu on in tlicst'soas. Hi' stated that in addition to thi' vast quantity liionglit to niarki't, it was a rominon iwaotice for tliosi' cn^'aiii'd in tlin Iradi' to shoot all seals Ihey nii(,'ht nicol in the open sea, and that of these a f.'ieat ninnhei' sank, so that their skins could not bu rocovered. (Ill llii> 28lli oi' .Inly lliciv apiteiii's in lln- Hrilisli .\|i|)on(lix ilio sams Voliimc, j)af;o 2W i IftliT IVoiii llio riiiled Slal(>s Miiiislcr wlio had llicii feliii'iii'd Id liOiiiloii lo lli(> Mai'(iiiis of Salisliiii\ ; I ask you lo iiolicf lliio ilat.\.liily l>Slli, ISHH. Senator Morgan. — Wlialistlio dale of Lord Salisbury's leltpr which you jiisl lead? Mr Phelps. — April KWh, sir; iuiiiiodiaUdy afler Ihc iiilervicw of iMf W'hilo in which lh(> oiijiiual agiiMVUcnl Ix^lwecii him and Iho .Minisler had hecii piil into shape. This h'llfi' of .Iitly 28lh is as follows : Mv I.oim. 1 hci: to recall vonr Lordships attention to the suhject ot'the jnoposed ("onven- tion hetweeii the (ioveriinu'Mt of the I'nited Slates, (ireat Itritain and Itii^sia lor llio I . • lection of the seal lisheries in. liehri^- Se.i. A c.u-idivahle time has now elapsi'd siiiie the last <'onversalioii 1 hail the hoiionr to have with V'ur Lordship in regard to it. when it was innlnally helieved thai an eailv ajiicenieni n.iglit lie arrived at. I am sure yonr Lordship will concur willi ine in coiiceiviii'j: it to he for Iho inloivsl ofall parties that a eonclnsioii should hi> reached as sooi as possihle. .Snd my (ioveriinieiil iiistrncts me respecll'nily to urt-'e upon Her Majesty s (ioveriiuieul the propriety, under e\i-tin;: circumstances, of imuiediate aclini. I uiidersi iiid till' Hiissiaii Gjvernmeiil to he prepared to concnriM the proposed CoiiVLMitioii as soon as the other (iovi'rnment coiieerued are ready to absent to it. Now, sir, you have from I-ord Salisliitry in his letter to liie Mr'tisli re- presentatives aliroad, his statement which precisely concurs in (^very pur- licnlur willi that of the AiiKii'ican .Minisler, and ihc .\meriean charge d'all'aii'es in representing this agreement to his (lovernment. Then there took place a correspondence, or perhaps I shonhl say there had taken place in the meanlime a correspondence from .\pril to July hflweeii the (ioverninents, eonlaininjj; a suggestion made in Ihefoiin ofa letler of the I iiiled Stales Minister, that has lieeii read, as lo the means iiy whichlhis cdiivenlion should he carricil iiitoetreet, and wlndher legislalion woiilij not lie necessary in lioth eoiintries to empowi'f the (ioveriimeiils and the courts (|uiMitly (■(irrocled hy iiii cxi)!,!!!!!- lioii IVdiii Ihn ih'ilish Koroigii Oflico IIimI Ihcy only iihmiiI llnil insUMil of [liissin^- a di'linih' hill pivscrihiiii; llic niaiincr in «hich a ('.oiiv.'nlion should ho earned oiil whieh was nol \el I'ln'maiK exeeiited, Ihal an ae|, should 1)0 passed onipowerinj; llio I'rivy (".oiineii lo issue such orders under siieh and sneh eireiimslaneos as inij;lil he neeessarv. I allude lo il only lo say lliul Ihe Conveiilion llial il is a;)|iarenl, was ;ii;reed lo ho oxoenlod on holh sides, and Ihe delails of il,'.vere all iinderslood. iiiid was likowiso liio siihjeel of eonsiih-ralioii and (d' eonilnsion as lo Ihe means by whieh il slioiild he carried iiilo eiVoel ; and whelher an ael was inlroilneed inloConfii'ess on III." oilier side for Ihal iHirpose, 1 really do nol know. I'ossihly Senalor Morjiaii iiuiv rc- ineiiiher. Senator Morgan No; I have no renienihranee al I Ihal. Mr Phelps. — 1 do nol know whelher il pil so far. Now, sir, why an; we liere? Sir Richard Webster. — There is a lelier of Ihe :\\\i of Si^pleniher on pajje 2Jn. from l,ord Saiisiniry lo Sir I.ioiie! WesI, which 1 lliink should he ivad in conneclion wilii wlial \oii are saviiii;-. Mr Phelps. — I will read il wilh much |)!easiiro : Willi reriMviirc lo my (lc.,|i,ilcli nl llie llilli April \a-\. ivlMlive lo Ihe pni|i(isals received fniiii Ihe ImivciiiiiiciiI (.llhi' I'liileil Shilo I'nr cmccrleil aclinu on llic |iarl of Ihi' I'owcis iiilcitv led hi the iiiiillcr, wilh a view lo the eslahllshineiil oC a close >casoii for Ih,. invservuli I Ihe I'lir-si'als rosoiliii- lo licliriiii;s Sea. I have lo inlonii you Ihal I have iccciilly hail a loiii;- coiivi--,ilioii u jih Mr I'lidps ..n lii,> siilu jccl. lie staled thai his (lovcninieiil weiv very aiivious Ihal an ai;rc(Miieiit should he airivcd at as soon as possihlc. I l"Miil,.,| oiii Ihe dillh'ullics lell hy Ihe Canadian (loveriiniciil, and said Ihal while III,, seheine was ra'.oiahlo to the indiistnos id' the iiiotiicr connliy, coiisidei- ahle aiiprehei.aon was fell in Canada wilh respect lo its pos>ihle cll'ecl on colonial inlel'esls. I added Ihal 1 was -till san-nine m coniiiiL' lo an arran-emeiil. hnl Ihal lime was iadispensahle, " Thai lelier is on my iioles to h:ive been read a lillle laler in aiiolher eonneclion. Sir Richard Webster. — I ho- \oiir pardon, Mr IMielps. Mr Phelps. - Il does nol dislnrb me al ail. I am f;lad lo read il al lliis lime lo ohlif;,. inv |,.;,rne(l friend; beeanse I was aiioiil lo piil the I'Kjiiiiv —I had pnl Ihe iiii|niry — How com- wo hero? .\f|(>r llioa-ree- i>""iil Ihal voii learn from bolli lliese (iovernmonls had been made, ils '| have just read as Iho cause of the delay, On |»ai;c '2\2 ofllie same liook, the third volume of tin- ilritish .\ppendix, under dale of Vuiiust IHIh, is a leltoi' fi'om .h)hn liramston, whom I helicvo my friend said was — Sir Richard Webster. — 'h' was a Secretary of Iho Colonial Ollicc. Mr Phelps. — A Secreli'i'v of the Colonial Oflico: yes. Sill : Willi ii'liTi'iue lo 111!' li'ller from lliis Do|i.iilinenl nl' llic lOlIi iiislant. I am iliivcli'ii iiy l.iMil KiinUroi'il Id Iraiisiiiil to yon, lo he laid liel'oi'o Die Maicpiis o .'^ali'^luiry, ainpynfa dispalcli from llii^ (lovc'nioiMii'ncnil of C.anaila foi'wardiiii;- a Miiiuli' of Ills I'rivy C.oiinril on lln' sulijcrl of llic pniiiosal of llii' I'liilcd Stales' (lovcniiiii'ul for Hie I'slalilisliiiiiMit of a close lime for seals in lieliriiiii's Sea. Ill \ie\v of (he explaiialioiis of Hie Honiinioii (lovenmieiil. wliiili slale \ciy cli'arly Hie slroiiu' olijeelions lo lln' pio|ioseil elosi' season, il appears lo l.oril Kiiiilsforil Hial il will be neeessary for Hie Uniteil Slales (ioviMimienl lo make some nioclilieil proposal if llio nenoliations are lo have any useful le^nli. The onchisiire in that is " The lii'port of ii Cinninittee of tlie jlono- lahle i'livy CiPiincil lor Canada, approved hv His Mxcollency, the (loviM'Uor- (lenerai in Coimeil. mi the I 'ith .Inly, \HHH. I will read Iho wliuie of il, as it is iiriof : ■flie C.omniilli'e of llii' l'ri\y iloiiiieil have liad under i'oii>iileralioii a despaleli dali'il Hie sih .Man h, I.SSS. from Hie lli,;iil llmeirahli' Hie Seeivlary of Slah' for Hie Cohiiiirs, liaiismillmi: a copy of a li'lli'r IViiu Hie Foreiuii ilfliei', with a nole from Hie I'liiled Slales' .Minister in London, snhmiiilnf; a proposal from .Mr Secrel.iry liaxard for the eslahlishmi'iit id' a (lose season for Hie seal llshiiif; in and near Hidirinu's Sea, lo extend from the I, 'ith j\pril lo Hie I si .Novcmher id' eaidi year, and lo he opi'rative in the walers lyin.i:- north of latitude ."iddivre.'s noiih and hidweeii lon|.'itiide liiO de,i;i s west and 17(1 dci;i'eeseasl from (irceinviidi. in which despatidi Lord Kniilsford asks to he favoreil with any oliservations which the Caiiadiiin Ho- vernmenl may have to (dfer on Hn^ siilijecl. The .Minister of .Marino and I'islKMies lo whom the said di'spalcli and im losiires were refeireil, sniimils a Iteport thereon, diilcd Hie Till ,liily, tS.ss, iirotestin;: ai-'ainsl .Mr Itaynrd's proposal as an iiiiiiisl and unnecessary interference with, or rallier pndiihition of, rifihts so loiii.' enjoyod to a lawful and remuneialiv(! occupa- tion upon the lii;.di seas. The Oommittce concur in the said liciiorl, and ailvise that .1 copy Ihcrcof, and of Ihis Minute, if approved, he tr,iiismilted hy your I'.xcidlency lo tin; ltij;hl Hono- rable Secretary of Stale for tin' Cadonies. — !8(i!) — Thou follows lliis Miiiule IVoin tlio Deimrlincnt of the Muriiin and Fishories, us [\\v rosiilt of llie ikport of llio Coinmiltt'o of the l'ri\y Coun- cil, siifiiuil by (JL'or^o E. Foster, Acliii;,' Miiiislor of Miirine luul Fisheries, in whieh Ilic j^rounds of (In ohjcclion were shiled. I cannot UiKe yonr lime, Sir, lo read the whole of this, nor is it neces- sary at all. It is in print before yon. I only read enoufjh lo point out that their objection is that the increase of the seals is so yreat, the num- ber so iarjie that the pelagic sealing; romplain(Ml of by the United States docs not cvon slop the increase, 'riicrefore, that it cannot be necessary for the preservation of the seal, and lliul the real objecl of the United Slates is not llic preservation of the seal, which is in no sense endangered, but is an attempl lo obtain a complete monopoly of Ibc sealskins and to deprive Canada of that share in the product obtained upon Ihc hijili seas whicli can be taken, as 1 have said, not merely wilhoul risk to the exis- tence of the herd, but witliout sloppinj; its increase. lie refers to a report of the United Slates Afient from which it appears, as he sa\s : I. 'riml iioiio l)ul yoiiiiL.' male sculs arc allowod to lie liillccl mi tlic Priljilol' Is- lands, anil of Ihcsi; only 100, ()()() amuially. 'J. That a carolul nicasui'einciil of Ibo biiHliiig rookeries on St I'aul anil SI George Islands showed (i.SoT.ToO seals oxcUisivc of young males. :!. Thai 00 |.ei-eiMil ol' the pups bred by these go inio llio water, leaving a nioita- lily of but 10 per cent at the [dare of bleeding. i. Tiial, fully one-half of the above 00 per ceni, of puiis reluiiied the following year as yearlings lo Ibo rooki'iies, leaving thus a lotal mortality id' i.'i pereeiit from various causes at sea. Ilneeds but a slight eonsidei'alion of lliese ligures lo demniislrale that an addition of millions each year ninst be made to Ihe surviving seal life in Ihe North I'aeilic Ocean. The Agent ill his Iteporl says ; "This vast number of animals, so valuable to the (lovei'iimeiil. are still on the increase. The eondition of all thi' rookerie's could not be heller". Thai report is slated to have been dated July IHlli, !««/. Sir Richard Webster. — It is a United Stales document. Mr Phelps. — Ves : il is cpioled from a United States document. .\gaiiisl Ihi' enormous yearly iiieiease of seal lib' may be placed the average slaughter astiiven in the .Memolanduiii alluhed to Ml' Itayard's letler, viz., lOi, t,')7 for the wlnde world, or for the seals near lo Dehring's Sea as fnllows : I'ribilof Islands Ot.OOT llommandi'r Islands el Itobbin Iteef il,S',C! Japan Islands 1,000 .North-west coasi of .\merica "J.'i.OOO Or a Icdalof. Iti.'i,. Still With an annual clear increase id' millions, and an annual slaughter id less than •:00,000 ill Ibo North I'aeilic Ocean, il surely cannot be eonleiided thai there is any necessity for such stringent and exclusive measures as the one proposed in ordei lo preserve Ihe seal lisliery from threateni'd deslruclion. Not only would it appear that the present rate of catch could he permitted, and a continual increase of the total number of seals be assured, but it would seem that this annual take might be — ISTO -- many limes imiltiiilii'il williout snioiis frars of I'xliaiislion so Idii;; as Ihn prosciit coniiilinn of hri'nliiiL' oii tin' I'riliilnl Islands are iircspniHi. And lio i;()os on to disi'tiss (lie siil)j(!cl. Tlie purport ofititll is, as I have said, lliat wliilo lliis proposal of llie I'liiled Stales is totally unne- cessary, .illogcthor uncalled for, that llie real motive ol it is to establish an absolule and complete mono|)oly on tlie islands. Senator iiiorgan. — Is tlial in .Inly 1888'.' Mr Phelps. — Yes, Sir. Senator Morgan. — .Mr IMielps, bcl'oi'c we rise for the recess, I would like to liiiow wliellier in the understanding'; thai there is lietweeii the counsel in this Case, in rejiard to the ideographical delinition of iJeliring Sea, the line is to he drawn inside the .Mciilian range oroutside? Mr Phelps. — Uo vou mean. Senator, on the question of whether it is included in the I'acitic Ocean? Senator Morgan. — .No: 1 mean in reference lo the words in the treaty •■ In or hahilually resorting to I'chringSea. " Sir Richard Webster. — I migiil perhaps save Ironhlc on this matter by saying and 1 tliinU .Mr. IMielps will agree thai the matter is a little in- volved, hut so far as Her .Majesty's (iovernmenl is concerned we have not the slightest oliiection to the passes into Hehring Sea being con- sider as pari of l!eh,"ing Sea. I do not think it would he accurate to con- sider the passes inio ti.'c sea as being a i)art of it, but for the purposes ot Ihe hcgulalionsl was discussingyestcrday, we have n(d Ihe slighesl objec- tion lo those passes being considered a part of the sea. Mr Phelps. — Ves, Sir. In answer to. Mr Senator .Morgans's queslion, if you will peruiil me a moment, Mr. President, this .Minute that I have been reading from is dali'd tlir Tlh da\ of , Inly, 1888. It was approved by the Governor-deneral in Privy Council on the 1 'ilh of .Inly, 1888 and it was transmitted by Lonl Slaidey of Preston to l-ord Knulsford on llie :)rd of .\ugust 1888, and W(Uild be in Ihe possession of the llrilish Foreign Oftice in about tlie usual lime alter that. The Tribunal h Ijourned for a short lime. Mr Phelps. — My learned friend. Sir Uichard Webster desires that I should re''.M' to another letter upon the same subject which I had not meiilioned this ni(nning I do it willi great pleasure, jjccanse il is by no means my intention to deduce an\ cimclusions from any pai't of Ihis cor- respondence which ai'e not sustained by the whole of it. It is a letter from Lord Salisbury lo Sir. lulian Pauncefole of the 22nd October I8<.)(), and il is in the :ird lirili-ii .Vppendix, i)age 18 of the si'cond part. The Tribunal will remember bclore I read fnmi this letter that the correspon- dence 1 have been ''eading louk place at, and immediately following, the lime when the .\greement between the two (iovernments for a convention that 1 was speaking of took place. Senator Morgan. — In 1888.' — 1S7I — Mr Phelps. — Ves, llu- li;llt'rs on holli sides. Now on liie 22n(l Oclo- ber IHW), Lord Salisl)ury wiili's to Sir Juliiin I'mnicolble a letter wliicli is produced here, in which, hein^- pi'i'ssod upon tiiis snhjeiit, lie gives un expiiiniilion : — I uinlcislaml liis coiniilaiiit — that is to say, in .Mr iJiaine's correspondence — to 111' thiit, in a convuisalinn wilh Mr l'lii'l|)s, re|ioi'toil liy lliii( goiUlciiiaii in a ilcsiialcli (ialtnl the i.'ilh [■'I'liniaiv, I.S.SS, I liailassdiihul lo llio Ainurican iiropnsitiuii to eslablisli, liy nuiliial airaii(,'eiiuMil liulwiion Ihc ClovcrnmiMits iiitorestcd, a closu lime I'll!' lur-si-als lielwiM/ii liie liilli Apiil ami the tsl Novemljer in oacli year, ami bohveen ItiD" \vi'.-i| l(in|iiluili' anil I70(!a>t innfrilmlc in llie Hi'hrini;'.s Sea; llial 1 had \inili'itaKcn lo causo an \vl to he introiliu'cil in Parliament In ^'ive ell'eel to this airanj;i'i!ienl as sunn as it could be prepared, and that 1 siibsei|nenlly needed frnni tlie-e enjrairemenls. rill.' conversation in i|iii'slion Imdv place on the '.'-jiid Pebrnary IS.SS, and my own reeiiril ol' ii, wrUten nn tin; .■iaine day in ii despalcb in your predecessor, is as follows : — .Mr Phelps then made a propnsal on the bases endiodied in Mr liayard's despalcb of the Tth February, a copy of which accompanies my previous ilespalcb of this day's date. Mr Bayard there e\[iii'sses the iiiiliiinii that the only way of pievi'Uling the destnietion of the seals would he by coneeiitralcd action on the part of the United States, (lieat Britain, andollu'r interested Powers, to prevent their citizens or subjects from kllliiij,' fui-si.',iU with firearms or other destructive weaiions north of .'it)" north latllude, and belweeii liiO west longitude and 170° east lon^ritude from Greenwii'h. dmiiii,' the perind inleivi'iiini;- between the t.'ilb .Vpril and the 1st No- vember. 1 ox[)ri'ssBd lo .Mr Phelps the entire readiiii'ss of Iter Miijesty's (iuvern- ment to join in an .\,i,'reemenl with llussia and llie Hailed Stall's to establish a close time for seal llsbini;- norlli of some lalilude lo be lixed. .\iid lie suhsciiiienllx discusses thai at a lenfilli I nei.'d not read, spea- ivinj:' viM'v kindly of the I'liiled Stales .Minister and giviiij; his \ lews which are before yon. 1 am very glad (hat this li'lli'r as it is in the ease, where it would na- turally encounter and probahlv has before! encoiinlered the eye of the Tribunal, siuiukl have been bi'onglil lo luy alteidion by my leariUMl friend on the oilier side. I appeal from that leltei" which is not after all very (lillerenl from what appeared from the former correspondence — I appeal from Lord Salisbury's rccolleclioii in IS'.KI to what Ik; said in the repeated letter I read this moriiiiii; ami need not read again, written inimediately after thai agreement was made. If the Tiihunal lake the trouble, which Iwiilnot slop to do, tocompare the letters which I liave read this morning from the Hritisii liovernmenf as well as from tlie representative of the .American (ioveriimeni with the sid)se([uent recollection of Lord Salisbury in liSUI), 1 lliink they will lind in which lie was correct, and in which be was uinioiibtedly mistaken. In thai letter you will remember those lol- lersi he suggested the iTtb parallel, lie stales the agrecmenl lo have ])ee!i liolh the dates lived, ami the limits fi\od, when now he seems to be of a recolleclion thai all he agreed lo was to agree lo something or other lo be li.xcd hereafter. Mow still oiv tlie'|)oinl whether llicrc eonld liave i)een any niistinder — I87i — slandiiifi or riillicr wanl ol' iiironnulion on llic pari, of Lord Salisl)iiry, I waiil lit call your alloiitiou lo a letter on the '2U\i paj^e ot'lliis hook, llie third IJritish A|ii)(Mi(lix, t'roiii Messrs Laiiipson the jjreat I'lir house of Lon- don lliron^h whose hands as it has appeannl and will appear in another conncelion all these seal ski> s passed. They are a very old well esta- hlished Mouse and the teller I I'eler lo is a letter from Ihese fienllenien lo the Karl oi' lddoslei}{li when he was Secrelai'y for l'or(>i^u All'airs dated the 12lh >iovend)er IH8)) almost two years hel'ore ni.dvinn the .\{;ieenient het- wcen Lord Salisbury and the American Minister I have referred to. .Mv l.(p}iii. We iiiulrisl.uiil ;i(|iii'sliiiii ol iiilcni:iliiiii:il hiw liiis iiliscn liclwt'cn lim (Jdvciii- nu'iil 111' llic IJiiiIdd Sliili>soii till' ciiH' hand, iiinl lln' (iovcniiiii'iits ulTiri'al Hiilain and ol till' l)(Jiiiiiiiiiii i>l' Caiiaila mi lln' hIIji'I' hand, rrspri'liii^ lln; sci/iu'i' hv the Unilc'd Stall's lli.'voiiiii' iiilli'i- • ('.niwiii ' oT cinUilii Dominion lishin;.'-vi'ssels cngairiMl in caiilniiuf,' I'ln'-srals in llu! waters olWIaska. As Ihc I'ulnro rxisli'iu'e ol' the rnr-seal skin Ir.il'lii', in which we have foi' vi'ars past jd'cn riii,'a^'rd. knyidy di'iiiMids npon Ihi' scUlonirnl ol'this i|urslion, wi' beg to snlirnil for vonr i-onsidi'iatiim. tln' rullowiiig lads : - Sitnali'd in the wali'i's of Alaska, lalitndi' ;i7" nuitli, hin^ilndc 170" wrsl, is the Prihiliil'gronp ol' islands. lirlonL'ing In tin} United Slates. Tlii'se islands, wliich are im r\ipiod eviu'y yoar from May lo Octohor by a larpe nuinher of fnr-soals for the pnipose of breeding, have iioen l-ased lo an American Company under slringiMil conditions, whieli leslricl lliein from killing more than 100(1110 yoinig males /n'r niriiiin. and stiiiily prohibit them from killing any fe- male seals whalever. The fnr-seal heing a imlygamiins animal, the annual increase is not all'ecled by the killing ol this limiled number of yonng males: and it has been found that the wise nursing by thesi' nn aiis nf Ibis very important tisbery has not only resullcd in the presei'vation of the seals during the past sixteiui years, but has also given an ample supply of skins fur purposes of trade. During Ihe !asl lew seasons, liiiwi,>ver, llsbiug vessels have been litliid out from polls in Hrillsb Columbia and llie Uniteive(l lo be Hrilisb inlercsis ipiite irrespcclive of liie I'nited Slates, so Ihal llic siibjecl was in no respect a new one, ami if so l.m-d Sidisbnry would have been the reverse of the man lliat lie is, in cajiable at all of dealing wilii a subject he was ii(d conscious he understood — be had compleic iiifor- malion from \arioiis sources in respect of the facls. Now then if I hero was u misunderslanding at the time of il, when he uels Ibis information from Canada, if be felt ho bad been misled, Ibat be bad acled loo baslily, Ihal be had been misiid'ormed by Mr llayard and liial Ihc I'acis 'staled in Mr liayard's eomiiuinicalion did nol stand llio lest of cxaininalion, or were exaggeraled. or were iuaceurale, why be would liave said sol As be stales himself wriling lo Hie Colonial Oflicc and lo bis Hepresenlativo at Washingloii, al the same lime Ibat llic American Miiiisler was slaling it lo iiis own Covernmcnl, that he was piitliiig Hie mailer oil' — expressiiii;' bis rcgrel — sanguine for more llian liO days after he bad received lliese commnnicalions from Canada that Hie agree- monl would be carriml oul, as I read Ibis morning and saying Ihal only lime was necessary lo ell'(!ct it — during all Ibat lime bo never suggested eillicr lo Hie American (iovermiienl or to ils llopresentative lo Hie Colo- nial (lovernmenl of Canada, to the Colonial Oflicc or lo any of Hie jninis- ters of I bo lirilish Ciovernmeiil anywhoro '■ wo miisl recall il, we bave beeniiasly, we bave acled wilhoul suflicicnl information " and wbalever Lord Salisbury may remember as lately as I8'.)(l about tbc indclinitencss of the Agroomenl, which be does not deny thai be made, tbal is comple- (ely conlradicled by bis own Ictlers in which be slated with tbo utmost — ISTl — |)arli('iiliii'ily |lii? very (It'liiils wliicli in IS'.)(i ho lomoinhcrs were loft for t'liliire iiiljiisliiKMit. Lord Salisl)iii'y was mislakcii in his recnllcflioii, h(! had not hot'oro him, whon ho niado thai slatcMnenI, those lollops thai might have boon laid jjofoio liim sijiiiod hy hiinscll'. .Now \w was pressed, — n hij^h-loned and h(nionral)h' man, as incapaljjo of roreding from any Afji'oomont that ho liad niaih; as any man in the worM, jealous of IJu; honour of his Country, lie was |wossod witli tlio |)ositi(Ui that the IJritish (iovoriimoni found itself in. ^on see it lrans|iarenl Ihroiifih all this con'CS|)Ondonoo. If, as I hinc said, he had hoeu drawn liastilv into this Agreomont, or had onlortid into some misnndorstandiuf;, or if (".anaila had |iresentod a ro- monslraiM'o which justitiod him in acting npi^n it and r(>i'o(lin^, lie wonki have (\u\)() so. Instead of that, all through the summer he was saying, "Time only is necessary; wo shall yet hring it ahoul". Thou, when pressed at Washington hy .Mr lilaino wilh this delay, no excuse for which had been ofl'ored hy Her .Majesty's (iovernmoni, hocausi; they had heard from Canada, llioy had got this formal I5(!|>orl from the Privy Council of Canada sigm-d hy the Minister, that source was oxhansled. slill pressed, as Ik; writes himself, hy the American .Minister calling upon him and nrgiiig dispatch, he writes a letter to which I must allude, and which will ho ibinnl in the 1st Volnmi! of the IJiiled States .\ppendix, page 2H8. Il is from Sir .Julian I'auncofole to .Mr Hiaino, and is diiled June tl»e30lh, IH'.tO : — I liavc iiMi'ived :i (lispiilcli Ironi Hie Maripiis of Sali-;|iaiT with rcl'iTcnce In Hie passaj,'!' ill Vdur iiolc In me nl' llie illi in^Jlant, in wliieli yoa reniark dial in IS,S8 liis Lnrilsliip abiiiptly closi'd IIk; ncf.'nlialinns liocanse 'llic C.anailian Governuienl dlijeclc'd', and .lial lie 'assifini'd no (dlier reason whatever'. That is quoted from what Mr niainc says : In vii'w of llie oliservatlons contained in l-ord Salislnuy's dispatcli of llie -JOtli of Jane, of wliicli a copy Is inclosed in my last preredin;; nolo of lliis dale. Ids Lordship deems il nnnecessary to disonss at any fiiealer lenjilh the eircnmstances which led lo an iiileiinptioii of the ne^rotiations of 1,S8S. Willi reixaril, however, to the passai-'c in your nole of Hie carric(l onl, as Tar as (ileal lirilain coidd ^c|. wilhoul Ihi; eoncnrrcncc of Canada, — that iiotiiin;^ lint llu.' iibjcclion of llanadia prevented its licin;; carried into elVccI : ami Ihal llie objection or(!..nadia was founded upon aslalemeni (d' fad whi( h now is not prclendod lo be so, — il was founded alone upon llie supposition Ihal llii> increase of seals, as I pointed onl this nioriiiii^. was so {jreat that all the I'csnils of p(dai;ic scaliiifi would not oven ari'csl Ihc increase (d'tlie siniIs, and that, llior(dore, llie allempi of tlni I'nitcd Slates lo interforc was simply sayiiifi' while the abundance of those animals is f;i'caler than wc can lake, jjrcalor lliaii we want, \\>' will slill prohibil yon from lakiiii; a small IViiclion (Uit of the sea of those seals whi(di wc should not and could not use if yon did not lake llicin. .Now, Mr Itlaine is inaccurate in saying Ihal tin; llritisli liovcrnmcnl abruptly terminalod Ihoso nofjoliations. They never did terminate IIkmu ; llicy died of inanition, uiid on the I2tli of Novcniiier is tlii> Idler Ihal has been so oflen I'ld'errcd to, and I shall not read from it ai;aiii. wliiidi is the last lime. I li(diuvc. till Ihc siilijcd was rcferri>d to in IK'.MI by Mr niaine, in which this Convcnlion lij;ures, and which evprcsscs the bcli(d' (d' till' Minister, or his coiudusicm, llioii};li Lord Salisbni-y had nol said so, Ihal (ireat lirilain wiudd not carry that ari'anjiimicnt oiil wilhoul the coiiscnl (d'C.anada, and llial llie ci)nse!il of Canada could nol be li.id and wonbl nol be had, and the Inited Stales' (ioverninent mijilil as well understand the whole Ihin^ was at an end. Thai is the purport of il. .Now, when you come and I shall soon ho lliroiif;li wilh these jireli- minarios, I hope) lo llio renewal of lliese noffoliations with All' Mlaine, Ihc lirst eommunication in rc'iard lo which I read this nornin^, — bet- ween Sir .lulian I'aunccrote, Ihc Ihen Minister, and Lord Salisbury, — wlial, then, was the altitude of (ireat nrilain? II was, from lirsl lo last, all the way throujth, o.xaclly this : — " Wc deny the rijilil of the I'nilod Stales'Govcrnmcnl lo proloci itself against this dostruclion of Ihc seals l)ec(Uisc il would be an inl'rinf^omenl of our rights u|)on Ihc high seas. We deny thai you liavo acquired Ihal from Uussia ; wc deny thai you have f J — 1877 — •?| «H'(|iiii'('(l il in iiii\ (illiiT way ; liiil, wlicii \nii I'lunc to llii' Ijiisincss nf pi'o- /^ si'i'viiig liii' sciilx, \vi> arc I'cadv lo join vmi in an\ and cvi'i'v llc;;iiliili(in f iieccssiu". tor llic |ini'|ios(', willionl regard lo aii\ iiilcicsl wliicli il may jilIV'cl ". 'I'lial was llii'ir posilion, — a |)o-ili(in pfrlrclly liononiMliic lo (ii'i'al Iti'ilain. \Vlii>llii>i' I'i^lil in its law on the (|iii'slinn of ri};lil or not, llial is anollici' (jni'slion, that is a (incslion ol'law. It was iicrlVctiy liitnoural)li' to (iical lirilain lo say " We iiic with \oii in llii' |in'sci'- valion ot'lliis animal; wo do iinl dosirc lo comUi'iiaiici' or to inilirl npon f von any serious injnry ; wi; simply assort what wo conrfdvc to lie tlio I ri};ld of the soa ; bid wo will join yon in ovorylliinfj tlial is nocossary ". ;# So llial liio issuo with (Iroal Britain caino to ho not whothor polaf;io soal- iiij; was rifihl, not whothor il conld ho justiliod, not wiiothorit was snro lo rosnll in llio oxiorinination oftlK* soals. as noliody np to that tim(> had I ovor doniod il, — not that at ail. II was, Who shall proti'ot llio seal herd hy snidi incusuros as may l)e nooossary .' ^oii propose to do il for yourselves; lo that we ol)jocl, hut wi? will join yon in doinjtit. i; In view of the atlilnde whioh this ease liiis assumed, I mnsi lroid)lo %. von, not at hsnjith, with ly, llial llio sei/iiri' of the Ca- iiiuliaii vcssi'ls ill llic l!i'lii'inj;'s Sea was jiisliiii'd liy Hie fad llial llicv were i'ii.i;aj;i'(l in a pmsiiil llial is ia ilsell' fmilfa Ixnins iitmrs — a piii'siiil wliicli of iii>ci'ssily involves a serious and porniaiieni iii.jniy lo llir li^ililsol' llie GovcniiiuMit ami iieople of llic Unilcd Slali's', il is obvious lliat Iwo i)iicslioMs arc involved; (irst, wlnllici' llie pni'suil and Uillin),' of far-scats in ccrlain pails of llic oiicii sea is, IVuni tin' point of view of inlernalional morality, an olVcnce cuiilni /wnos iiuiri's; and, secondly, wlicllicr, if sindi lie llio case, Iliis fad jnslilics llic seizure on tlio lii^li seas and sub- scipiciil conliscatioii. in lime of peace, of llie piivale vessels ol a liieiidly nalion. i 'riien be says, 11 is an axiom ol' iiiternalional maritime law lliul saeli action is only admissilile in the ease of piracy or in imrsnance of special iiiternalional afxrccniciit. This princi|de has heen nniversally adniiltcd by jurists, and was very dislindly laid down by President Tyler in bis special niessai.'e to Congress, daled llie 2Ttli Fe- bruary, IK',,^, when, after ackiiowledf;inf.' llic rij-'lil to detain and search a vessel on suspicion ot |iiracy. he goes on lo say : >Vitli Ibis sinjile oxeeplioii, no nalion lias, in time ol peace, any aiitlKuity lo detain the ships id anolher upon the hi,i;h seas, on any pretext wlmlcver, (Mitside the territorial jurisdiction. Now, the pursuit of seals in the open sea, under wbi'tover eircunistaiices. lias - 1H7S — ncvci' hilhi'ilo Ih'cii Cdiisidcicil iih |)inicy liy any ii\ilui'i| sliiliv Nor, even il'llii" I'liiltMl Sliili's liail piiii^ Mt I'ai' as In iiiaki' llic killiiiK '>l I'lir sral-« |iirai'y liy llicir iiiiiiiii'i|>iil law, wiiiilil lliis liavu jiislillcil llicm in imnisliiii^' (ill'i'iici's iigaiusi >nili law, luininilliMl hy any |ii'i a^jnril In loiik ii|iiiii Willi alilimri'iiri', llir i i^rlil nf aii.'sliiif; tin' M'ssrls nl' .iimlln'r nuiiilry i* i'\i'lri-''il iiiily by y|irrial iiili'iiialinlial a;;ii'i'lii('iil , ami im uiiu ^m I'liiliiiiil lia-> liri'ii alliiwi'il thai K''>>''<'').'aril to soal-liiintiiiK'- Itnl lli'r Maji^-ily's (i'lvi'riiiiiiiiil iiiiHt i|iii'slii)ii wlii'thi'r llii< |iiirsiiil ran Dl'ilsi'll' liii ri'^tarili'l a« (■"iilni litmus in uvv, niili's< ami iitilil. I'or >|ii'i'ial ri'ii-iolis, it lia'^ hi'i'ii a^'r I liy inli'inatiniial ai'i'an,i;:iMii('iil In I'liiliiil it. I'iii-simIs air iii'li<|iiitalily .iiiiiu- n\* /'■■r:i' ii'iiiii:r, ami tlir^i' liavii iinivi'rsally licrii ri'(.Mrili'il liy jurists as ;•■■%■ nulliiii until llh'y an' I'an^'lil; iin ifi'snii, llutri'l'iiri', can have |ii'n|ii'rly In llii'iii iinlil lir lias aclnally riMliRcil llii'iii liiln |Missi'sslon liy cu|itiiri'. II ri'i|nii'i's siiinrlliin;; iiinri! Ilian a iiieru ili'riariillnii lli.it tin' liiiM'iiiim'iil nr cili/i'iis III' llic IJnilril Stall's, or rvni ntlirr ronntrins inti'ri'stril in tin' seal timli', ani liisiTs liv ii ci'i'laiii nniii'si! nt' priiCi'i'iliiiL' In ri'iiilri' llial nnirsi' an iinninral nm>. riiiil is all llic ili'i'i'iK'i' — ' a (lul'i'iii'i' liascd ii|iiiii a locliiiii'al |ii'ii|iiisili(iii dl' la\> — ydii I'aiiiKil (•alllliis '■'/////''///"//(« ///'//'cv, as iii\ iVioiid llio Allonii'V (i('iUTaliirf;(ius lici'ci iiiililil is agreed liy iialiiiiissnloclassiry ii. My ri'i(!iiil Mr Coiiilci'l NNas Kiiiii oiiim^li to alli'iliiilc to iiic IIk; lii^li limior of liiiviiif:; iiilroiliircd inlii this discussion lli(> Lalin iiliiasc ranlni lionns i/iarrs. I iiiiisldisi'laiin Ilia I lad. Sticli ideas as I jiosst'ss I am iindi'i' tlio lU'ccssilv iii'c\|in'ssin^', as well as lean, in llie i'iii^lisli laii^iia^e willi wliicli 1 am luiire raiiiilai' lliaii aii\ iiIIum'. I'liat llii-slaii^liloi'iil' aniiiialsin this coiidi- liuii, ill smli a iiiaiiiier as lias Itoeii alliidi'd In, may lie a hrcacli iirmaiiiiei's. iiia\ III' I'l'iiiilti'd Id till' I'lii'tim iir^iiiid maiiiiers lo I'linsidcr. Isliuiiid iiol so class ij. 1 1 isvcry iiili'i'oslirij; to src in llie liisliiry ol'discnssiun, what is till' tirst slc'|) lliat ahsays has In lie laken, and always is taken, in dcreiid- inj; thai which is indol'iMisihli; — il is to lind a phrase liv which ymi can duscriitt! il willioul desurihiiif^ its charaelor. In siimc parts of llie IJnilt'd Stales 1 am sorry lo say thiit assassinalion is called •• a diriicnlly hel- wcen fieidlomon". I have heard larceny sometimes called slralhi;/), called " niisapiiropriation ". Some people ac(|iiii'e a considcraide repii- lalion in devisinj; in{;t'nious rirciimiocnlions h\ which yon can decrihe a Ihinn looolijeclionahletohe descrihed in straightforward lan^uaf^e throiifih liie coiiV(mieiil covet of the Latin or Ihc Fnmch. ThaL is not one of my accoinplishmeiils im,! liierefore I mnsl modestly disclaim the hoiiorwhich my friend has allii' ided to me of iiivenliii}; this phrase. Senator Morgan. — I suppose \oii do not describe the pela},'ic sealing of fiii'-seals, as •• lishin;;".' Mr Phelps. — .No, I shoidd not descrihe il as " lishinjt- ", certainly, niilil I supposed thai the seals liecame lisli. Now in the latter part of this suiiie leller there is one other sentence by Lord Salisbury. I am reading, Sir, from page 210 : — The slalenieiil thai il is " a lad now held beyond denial or ilonbl that llio taliing of seals in the open soa rapidly leads lo Iheir exiinclion " would adinil of I % ■■A f — I87!l — l('|il\ , mill iihiiiiilalil rviili'lirr nuilil In' aililiiri'il on lln' ipIIhT siili'. Itill as il is prn- |i I lli.il llii> jiii'l >>r llii' i|iii'>lii>ii >li()iilil liK I'Naiiiiiit'il liy a iiiiiill>'i> In liu a|i|Miiiil.i| liy llli' hMi (iDNilllllirill''. Il is mil iii'crssiiN llial I >liniilil ileal Willi il liriv ■^ >\v. Sir, if I am iinl niisliiki-ii in lliitsc I\mi |iiira^'i'ii|ilis in llio siimi! li'lliT III oiii' <>r vvliirli III- sa\s. as llii' ii'anii'il Alloriiuy (lunural has said liurc . Ilial lliis liiisiiifss, wlialcviM' il is, ninnol hit Uu-liniciilly tliissiul as iiiiilrn liiiniis iiiiirri iinlil IIk' nalions liiivc n^Ti'i'il lo call il so — ami Ilii! iillii'i' ill wliirli III' sass thai Iliis slalcinciil li\ Mr ltlaiiii> Hint il ccrlainiy li'aijs III IJii' i'\li'rmiiialiiin wonlil admil nl' ri'|il\ ami llial ll.>'i'i' is iir may III' aliiimlaiil I'viili'iiri' mi II Ilirr siili-. llial is cM'ry wnnl ilial I'aii In; asrrilii'il lii)iiral llrilain. ill liavi- iivi'I'IiioKimI imlliiii;; ami I [l.'.ii\\ I have mil , rnini lln" lii';;iiiiiiiin In Ilii- cml nl" all Iliis fi)rri'S|Min(lcnce which a|i|ii'iiarlii's llii' |Miiiil i>r (li'l'didinfi cillicr llii' rhai'ai'k'i' or Ilii* ciinse- (liii'iiics III' llii> hiisiiii'ss lliiil is ralli'd " |ii'laf;i(' scaliiif: " — anollitT iiiM'iiliiiii 'ill liii' I'liijAJisli laiij;iii!;;i' llii> liiiii', di-rivi'd i lit'li\' r'liiii IIk! (iri'i'U as far as llu' word " |i('la;;ir " is I'limcriii'il), In wliicli Ihis liiisinuss is cliararli'ri/.cd. Il is an imiiislry — |ti'laj;ir scaliiifi; — <>\' wliiili Iht' wnrsl llial ran hi' said liy lliii»e wlm liav(> In nvi-r sli'p llio liniinds of law losay llial, is llial il is mulni hnnnx m'lrfi. I wish III I'all alli'iilimi on Iliis jioiiil In smiii' cvlracls Iruiii sniiii' nf llii' ciirri' j.iimlcnci', liaxiiij; |ioinli'il mil llial llii' hiisim'ss iicviT was di'Iciidi'd llial. - sIrciiiiDiis as (ircal ISrilain was in assoiiiii^ whal was i'i'f;ardt'd In In- llii' ri^lils nf Ilii- sea - llu' hiisincss ilstdf iii'vcr wi'S dofiMKli'd i'\i'i'|il ill llicfaiiil manner I have imliraled. On Hie nllier hand, in Ajiril IHUII Sir .Inlian I'amiccfiile wriles In Mr Itlaiiie — I am rcadinj,' IVmii llie saiiu! I'liili'd Slali-s' A|i|ii'mli.\ pa^f 2(l."i. II lias lici'ii ailiiiilliHl, In mi llir rniiiiin'iiri'iiii'iil , llial llu' suli' oliji'r! nl' Ihi' iirfiu- rialiuii is llii' |iii'M'ivali(iM oT llii' I'lii'-si'al spfiii's tm- llic liriirllt nC luaiikiiul, and llial nil I'liiisiili'ialiniis i>r aiivaiila^'c In any |iarliriilai' iialion. iir ul' hi'iii'lil In any privali' inlrirsl, >liiiiili| riilcr iiiln IIil' i|n<'sliiMi. A^'ain nnder dale of May :i2nd ISS'.I, |ia-vs 2(t7 In :>()!l of Ihe same linnk, I. Old Saiislinry wi'ilinj; In Sir,liiliaM says : llnr Maji'sly's liovi'rnnii'iil wniilil ilri'|ily ir,i;ii'l llial llir pnrsnil cif t'ui'-srals on llir lii(,'h soas liy Urilisli Vfssi'ls slimilil involve I'vrii tin' sIIkIiIi'sI injiiiy In tlio |i('opl(^ nf llii! Unili^il Slali's. II llii' casi' In' piovi'il, llii'y will In' ri'ailv lo consiili'r wlial ini'asiiii'S ran \w piopi'ily lakon Inr llii' irninly nrsncli iiiinry, hut llioy wniilil lio iinalilo nil llial m'nnnd In ili'parl iVniii a pi'lmipli' on wliiiji IVri^ i'oniiiii.'n'u on llir liiijli seas iliipi'Uils. Sir .Inlian, nnderdiile of .Inne 3rd IH'.Kt, wriles lo MrlMaine al page 2\1 of Ihe same hook. Hit .Maji'sly's (Jovi'rnnii'nl aro i|iiiti! williiiLrlo ai|o[il all mrasincs which will bo salislai'loiily provcil lo lie iiucessary lor the prescrvalinii orilic I'lU'M'al species, and lo L'lifnn I! such nioasures on Hrilish snhjoclsliy proper lcj;islatioii. On .Inne 9lh 1890 al page 220 of Ihe same volume Sir .Inlian writes again lo Mr HIaine : llor Majesty's (iovi-rniiicnt have always been willing;, without jiludging tlieni- n — 1S80 — selves to (lelail? on llie (lueslions of area and dale, to carry on negocialions. hopin;.' tlierrliy Id eomi' lo simio arrangement lor such a close season as is necessary in order lo ]ireseive llie seal spi'cies from oxlinclioii. TluMi oil .liiiH'-iOlli IH'.XI, Lord Salisbury writes to Sir Juliiiii, at \n\^e 28(j ot'liie same book : Her Majesly's (Hivernmenl always have been, and are still, anxious for llio arrani^-emenl of a eonvenlion wliicli shall provide whatever close time in whatever localiliesasis necessary for llie [ireservation of the fur-seal species. Then on llic 21sl July IW)1, Lord Salisbury again expresses iiimself thus to Sir .lulianal page 21)0 of the same book : Whatever importance they the British Govornnicid allach lo the pri'servalioii of the fur-seal species — and they justly look on it as an oliject deserving tln' niosl serious solicitude — lliey do not conceive llial it confers upon any marilinio power rights over the open sea which that power could not assert on other grounds. Now on page 2i'i of the some volume his Lordship says in the same letter. Her Majesty's Guvenmient have no (djjeclion to ri'fer the general question of a close lime lo arliitration or lo uscorlaiu liy that means how far 11 laclinenl of such a provision is necessarv for the preservation (d' the seal species, but any such reference inight not to contain words api)eariiig to attribute special and abnormal rii:hls ir Ihe mailer lo Uniled Slates. Tliose are l.'iil seleclions. There are oilier passages, to the same pur- l)(ul, sliiiwiiig Ihe position whieii (ireat Hritain assumed in Ihe second singe of Ibis negolialiou willi Mr Hlainc! vi/. the result of Ihe iiegotiaiion ought l(l the point ofagn'eiug thai whalever was necessary for Ihe preservation of Ihe race would be adopted. Ihe (jueslion then being whal is necessary — a point at which the Hrilisb (Jovernment never expressed ilself — Iliey said, " we refer that lo a Commission ". In Sir.liiliairs Idler of .\pril MUlh 1890 in the same volume from whieii I hav(> bei'u reading at page 20,") he says : — the great divcigence of views which exists as to whither any restiictions on pelagic sealinii are necessaiy for the |ireservalion of the fi.r sp.'cies, and if so as lo the character and exieni of such reslriclions, renders it inpossihli' in my opinion lo arrive at any sidiition which would satisfy public ooiiiioii either in Canada (jr (Ireat Hrilaiii or in any counli \ which may he invite. I to accede to (be proposed a I page limseif — issi — arianf-'t'iiiciil wilhoul :i lull in(|iiliy by a ihIximI coimnissioii ol' oxpei ts llio result of whuse labours and itivi'sti;;alions in tlii' rtv'''"i -jf snal lisliery wdiild jirdbably dis- pose of all the points in dispute. And ill that letter is proposed tlic draft oC a legal coiiventioa coiistitii- liiifi siieli a commission. In llu' iiolc of May :2:5rd to F.ord Salisbury, Sir Julian says in rcla- limi lo an interview with Mr Ulaine in which he had been urgiiif; upon the lallcr liic propiiely of adopliiij; Lord Siiiishiiry's proposed conven- tion. MnreoviM', it supplied the inosi couipli'te machinery for arrivini;' at a linal deci- sion as to what refiiilatioiis slmnld be adopted fnr the preservation oflhi.'seal species. Mr Itlaine replies lo Sir .lulian's note in llic lelior of .\pi'il .'JUJH'JO ill Ihe same book, page 2ll'i', biil he fails to comment onihe position and he rejects tiie draft convention. I need no! read this correspondence, more or less (d' which has been rel'circd lo before. It shows Ihroughonl wlial I have staled, that this proposition for a joint commission came from tireal Mrilain in liie lirst place, was received with disfavor by the United Slates tiovernmcni. was pressed ai;aiii and ajiaiii, assumed difFerenl forms, and finally was assen- ted lo by the ( niled Stales (iovernineiil and found ils way into the Treat y. Senator Morgan. — Do you mean il found ils way into liie nhnliis vi- voiidi or iiilo Ihe Tiealy '.' Mr Phelps. — Into Hie Trealy. Senator Morgan. — Into bolh. Mr Phelps. — Vcs. Wlial, then, was Ihe linal result of all ol Ibis ii|i Id lhi> lime id' (lie commeiicemcnl of this .Vrbilralioii .' II was thai llii' C.oiivenlion lirst a^i-eed lo, and deliiiealed on the map. haviiiii fallen lliriiiii;li for liie reasons I have slaleil. Ihe nejiolialion beiiij; renewed, the allilude of lireal Itrilaiii was Ijial \\liil(> Ihe ipieslion (d' i'i,i:lil miisj re- main lobe decided, wh.cji liiex couhl not a;:rc(> upon, Ihe mailer of re- i;iilalious should be ''cfcriei' lo a joint commission, which lliey were coii- lideiit would settle lli(> bu> iicss. So was .Mr. lilaine. So werealllhose who had anylhin^ lo lii' wilh il. They did nol have a momiMil's doubl llial when a commission of experts were seiil out upon thai Iheoiy lo vi-il those islands and e\aiiiii:e Ihe subjecl and iiirorm liicmscUcs and decide wlial was necessary for liie prcservalion of the sjiecies Ibal bidb nalions would at once accede to il : but in Ihe event that Iliey faihd to agree, il was provided llial the subject should then be referred to arbi- ion — then and nol till llicn — a coiiliiiiiiMicy iiol I'ori'seen. and il oiiglil nol lo liavi! occurred. We shall see as wegoim liow il happened llial il did occur. II was in thai event only llial this 'rribiinal. provided for by the trealy, should be charged wilh the business of doing what was lirst assigned lo Ihe mixed commission; and if llial had been salis- m — I.SS-J — fiicloi'ily pcrt'ormed both nations would have hcon quite wiilinf; to waive (lisciissioii of the abstract question olrifjbl. W'lial is the iiltitiub" of this case as it appears before yon? The (pn^s- lion of i'if;ht still remains as it remained before to i)e diseussed and deri- ded upon whatever fcrounds you see III. The learned Attorney (ieneral was desirous to persuade you that even Ibat ([uestiou expressed in the broad and conipreheusivc terms of llie sixth article only meant thai you were to try af;ain Ihese oltl Itnssian (jneslions involved in the tirst four. I do not lliink lliat rccpiires replv. it did not seem to me ilia! Ilie sui;i;(!s- tion eonnncnded itself toihe judgment of the Tiibunal. The question of rifjhl, upon whatever i;i-ound it is asserted and iqxm whatever ;;ronnd il is denied, remains. My learned friends wei'e alarm(>d appareullv at a re mark that fell from Senator Mortran, that lie thoufihl tliei'e was another (piestion in Ibis treaty. They seemed to fear there was some jironnd as yet utdvnowri and undisclosed Ibat was liable lo spring onl ofthe recesses of this dociuneni lo embarrass Ibo Tribunal, or lo subjecl them to some claim that tliey had not beard of. I did not so und(M'slaml the remark cf the learned .\iliilral(U'. Perhaps I misimdei'slood it. I understood hiir. lo mean that Ihese ipieslions were lo \h\ read in the lij;lil of tin; lirst ar- ticle of the Treaty, and tluit when read in conneetiiui with the context they submitted exaclly Ibc proposition that I liave sniimilled this moruinfi; whether the rif;hl existed lo carry on Ibis business with ilsconse(piciices. It is for those whocn^aije in such a business with such conse(pu'nces to Juslil\ il. The allenipl to assume that llii-y ai'e enf;ai;ed in a lawful l)nsiuess and are surprised lo lind that ujiou some nncomprehensive j:ronn j;i'ounil to iideriupl, is to bci; the whole ipieslion. Senator Morgan. — if \im will allow me just lliere. I would like lo make a remark, von lia\e referred to me. Mr Phelps. — C.erliiiuK. Senator j''Ior!;r.!i. — I undersland that Ihe (pieslion propounded and submitled in the lirsl article of Ihe treaty included the (pieslion of tlie ri;;hl of citi/.ens ami siibj(>cls of both couiitrii's to indnljii' in wliat wi; call pelaf^ie himtiiii:. Tlie American citizen who indulges in pela}:ic hunlinii viidates necc'^sarih the laws of Ihe I'niled Slati's when he indnliics in tiiat practice in llehriiii; Sea. Then ihe (pieslion arose in m\ mind whether il was a part of the (bil\ of this Arbitration lo repeal the laws of the I niled Stales so Ibat theciti/eusof the luiled Stale- mi^bt c(Uilrary lo its laws indul};c in pelaiiic buulinj; in Itehrinn ^''!'- Mr Phelps. — I Ihiiik it will bardlv be (l(Ui'ileil,Sir, that no sii
  • open sea any more than il is anv where else, and thai any nation that is injured l)\ il has a rigid lo objecl. My li'arm'il l'ri(>nd Ihe Alloi'ni'y-il u|)on what appears lo be rig!' or what ajipears lo be wriuig. 11 i-i lo bo delermine I upon the principles of inlei'tialional law; llial Ihe object of Ibis Tribunal, the duly id' Ibis Tribunal, is lo adminislcr Ihe principles of inlernational law. We agree to that. We have iiol pro|)o- sed any olber slandarcs — caplui'od by a privalcer, legiliuialeU coniniissioned hy one ol'lhe helligerenls and hroughl in for eondiMunalion in his courl, — Ihal 111! is lo hi' liaiMnguod upi:in llie suhji!(i lA' whellier Ihe eslahlisiu'd law of III!' world upon Ihose |)i)inls is or is nol in cijurorniity wilh ethical C(jn- siderations. is or is noL wlml ho would declare' iiie law lo Ik; if in place of ajudgo he were a law-giver, lo |)roponn(l law instead lA' adniinislering il. Nohody pretends thai. II would he absurd. In Ihe lirsl place, we conlend llial this case of ours, this I'ighl of pro- perly or prolection, call il what yon please, is as eonipletely eslahlished by Ihe just principles of inlernationallaw as il is by Ihe considerations of elliics and nioi'alily linl waiving that point for the moment, which we will discuss by and by, suppose il is nol. Suppose you have here presented lo you for deei- si(m a quesliou of inlernalional law, \vbi( b can be staled lo be a new one. Such cases ar<'of \ery rare occnricnce. That plac(> in (hiswoiid and those transactions in this world Ihatwhal has been well called Ihe ■• glad s(Miie light td' jurisprudence " has nol reached and does n(d provide lor are bul\eryfe\v. They are very I'are. i?ul sup|)ose you encounter one. Il nnisl be decided. If yon are writing a book, il niighl be suflicicnt to sav in regard lo any such (pieslion. " It is undelcrniinable: we are nol able lo sa\ in this treatise what the law is. We can say wlial we lliink it nughl !u be, what we believe il will be, but as we are nol aulhori/.ed lo establish law, we are (diliged lo say Ibal this is still an iMis"ltled (jucslion. " That is the wax yon might dispose of il if one were writing a Ircalisi; nn inlernalional law : lint wlien the ipieslimi conlVoMls you as a Tribunal, and you have gcd lo decide il, whether it is new oi' old, wIhmi il must be dei'i- dcd. and in looking o\er Ihe Held of what is called aullKU'itv on that sub- Jecl, \ou ariMMiable to say Ihal il has been provided for before, what tlirn? jtecide it right, if what is right is plain and clear and (d)vious not oiiK lo Ihe legal sense, but lo the uk •t common and wax-faring sciim' in Ihe world? " Oh no " says my learned friend; " you iniisl md do thai. The nations have not consented. " lint you have got lo decide it. ||' xou cannot decide il right, xou luusl decide it wrong. Have Ihe nations coii- si'iiled lo that? Planiiliir (/nililins, says my learned friend. Is that whal Ihe nations have said? Von are in a posilicm where you must go one w;iy or Ihe other, where you cannid fall baidv and sav, •• We do nol know ; it is loo soon lo decidi' this (pieslion. The nations liaxe not agreed. It is plain it ought lo be decided, if we are at liberty lo do Ihal, but we are lelimmisiied that no considcralions of thai sort ;(mslilute inlernalional law, Ihal the sanction of the nations mus| lirsl be had. " Therefore, whal — isxt; — is lliciilli'i'iialivc.' Itfcido il wroiif,'.' If lliis is — Nslial I ultogflher deny — stuli il ciisc lis lliiil; illliis is (ir wci'i- ii lu-w (|ueslioii ; if il wen- oim ii|ioii which \(iii dose voiif l)OoLs, hiiviiif;' scarciied Ihciii in vain Cor li)j;lil, llio ailci'iialivc is lo dccido il rifilil or lit decide il wi'on^'. li'nalionsliavc no! agreed liial ycui may decide il rijjhl, Ihen yon ninst assume Ihal Ihey have aj^rccd Ihal yon siionhl decide il wronj;. Now llial is Ihe conclusion au;i \\w ii'resislilile logical conclusion, lit! does not help yon onl of Ihal dilemma vvilh his dennilion ol' Inlerualional law. NOw what is aiiolher conse(iuence ol'his |)ro|iosition, II is Ihal inler- nalional law can never advaui'e another slep. The lust hook is written; the last addition has been made. II is like Ihe .Mosaic law, wi'itlen. laid u|i, historic I'orwhal it is worlli. it cannot he extended another ste|) in the ndministi'alion of human all'airs, in other words il is a dead law heeanse any system of law perishes in a moment when il ceases to he able lo keep up with all the vicissilndi's enu'rjiencies, refiuiriMuenls and conditions ot hmnan all'airs; when its principles cease lo he elastic enoufih to compre- hend and lake in every human Iransiiilion Ihal can possihly oeciu' (Ui Ihe lace of the earth, and lo settle all the ri};hts tlud j;row out ol' it, — when il ceases to possess that capacity it perishes, as systems oi'law have peris- hed olVIhe earth. How can il ad\ance'.' How has it advanced? What has heeii the j;row th ol' lnlernalion;d law ? W'hei'e does il come from.' There is no lejiislalure lo propound il, thei'e are no (Jourls that are competeni In declare il. There are courts thai may administer it when il can hecome so far selllcd as to lie d(!lerminate. There can lie no general eonveuliou of uatioi s called lo agree lo it. If \ou put a provision into a Trealv Ihal only maizes (he law of a contract, Ihal is to sa\ a law that hinds the two parties to that law which all the I'cst of Ihe world may disregard. That is not international law. Ihjw is inlerualional law advanced'.' It is advanced from ils ear'liest iiidimenis hy a nation assei'ting for itself in every new enuM'geuey, under evei'v new (■(mdilion, in every >tep forward Ihal iiumaii all'airs have laken, wlial il claims lo be right. I say " what il claims lo be I'iglit "', hul that does not make il so. Then see what Ihe woi'id says. See what inlelligeiil uuuikind say to thai, and |ieraiivenlure b\ Ihe general accpiiescenci' of men, bv the appi'oval of wise men, by Ihe endorsemeni of Courts of Justice — in all these wa\s in which the senliuuMit of the woi'ld lianspires ami applies the claim niav bv and !)ye come lo what yui woidd cull us we mav sav of uumv things '• settled beyond doubt — no huiger' lo he discussed until tin; lime comes when if thai pi'ovision of law is obsolete, is iiisuflicienl or bectuning niiscbie\ons then some nation, when Ihe emergency re(|uires it, repu- diates it and says; that is no longer law. Then again this process goes through. Then again the ullenlion of Ihe woi'ld is invited and the history of inlernalional law is simply the history of those assertions — l.ssT — tlial liiivo been iiiiul(! I)y Millions in liicir own hi'liiill'on llie l)asis of wlial tliey llionj;lit was I'if^lit and under llie jiressin'e of wlial lliey (honglil lo b(! a necessity, or al least a iii'o|)i-iely — tlie assertion I say of pi'o- |)osilions and prineijiles wliieii liave been j^athered by llie j;eneral conciirrenee of men into llie purview of what may be ealled intorna- tional law. Suppose, Sir, that any one of those propositions thai any man can think of, that if staled now would be said lo be perfei^tly settled, was pre- senleil to a (!oiirl for liie lirsl liiiii.'. Suppose there never had been a blockade of a port in an\ manner in the history of thi' world. Suppose now for the first time and in a warfare between twofjreat maritime I'owers, one of Ibem scn siicci'ssl'iillv ariirmcd lu Ix-loiifj; lo llio domain of iiilcriialioiial law had its oi'i^iii, ()l)laiiii'd its maliirily and passed inidcr Ihu saiiclioii whicli CoiM'ls ul' .l(isti('i> and international ohli^alions ciiiiler. .Now what is one pi'oposition? 11 is Ihat, where (pioslions liav(! l)ecoine settled in this way, thin estai)lisli the law, and the law is not open to he chanp-d hy pnrely elhieal eonsidcralions , until those clliical con.siderations, hecoine. at any rate, so strong that a nation is justitied in asserting itsoll': and gradually the law heconios changed. On the oIIkm- hand, when the lirsl Napoleon undertook lo earry this husiuess of hlockadc, Ihat I have heen speaking of, a >tep I'mdher, and lo provide that a " paper hloekade ", as il was called, might he estahlished hy proidaniation , and Ihat yon mighl exclude the vessels of neutrals from porls, while no hlockading i'oi'ce was present, hy virtue ol'a proclamation, wlial said the world to that? They rejeclcd it. Thai meant Ihecimti'ury Ihing it'll had heen approved. The President. — ■ lie did n(d iiuile give the first (;\ampleol' that. Mr Phelps. — No, I am quite aware of liial, Sir, that is was not the first example. The President. — It was an example. Mr Phelps. — Ye>, I shall have occasion lo refer lo the lirsl in ano- llier connei'tion helore I am through. Now there is an illuslralioii lo the ciuitrary of an assertion that did nol hecome inlcrnalional law. TIumi if you have hefore you a new rjues- tioii. or a new (piolioii in ils application have you anylliing to resort lo when it must he decided cxcepi Hie plain principles of right and justice, and are ahle lo see what they are? Senator Morgan. — How else, Mr IMidps, could the cahle line liet- weeri the ['nileil Stales and Great iiritain he protected out in the high seas, more than three miles froin the shore except on that idea. Mr Phelps. — Yes, thai is another illuslralion of the same Ihing. Senator Morgan. — And I suppose, lifly \ears ago, nohody dreamed ol'a cahle. Mr Phelps. — Yes, il is a proposition that can hi; sustained h\ luim- herless illustralions. The only (pieslioii could he whether that i|uestion was new, or covered hy the applicalion of an old and eslahlished prin- ciple. Thai is the meaning of Ihe anthorilies thai were cited in the open- ing argumeni on the pail (d' Ihe rniled Slates lo such a great extenl. Thai is wlial authors mean when they say llial international law is founiled on Ihe principles of right and justice and conscience. They do nol miNin lo say that estiihlished law may Ix; delealed ii\ ap|dication or resort to those consideralions ; hut they do mean lo say, thai is the foun- dalioii, that is the source from which it is all derived. Those are Ihe principles mi which we are to proceed — until Ihe time arrives when it is found that the contrarv has hecome so far estahlished that it is neces- ■ ISHO :t nul llic Ml' l)el- siiiy In lospecl il. I shall liavo lo wi'ur Id soiiio iuilliorilics on lliis |ioinl, hut llic li'lerencc will ln' oiiK brief, I liopc. The President. — Kocs liiis conlenliuii orvoursjio riiillicr lliiiii \\li;il voii wdiild say lor iniiiiiciptil law? Mr Phelps. — .NO, Sir, llie sainc pi'iiiciplc is al llio rotil of iiimii(i|iai law Itcyoiid question; anil I shall nii\ lo-iiiorrow a provision from lln- I'ronch Code Ihal setuns lo mo lo hoar upon Ihal. linl nnmioipal law has, however. Iwo resorls lliat are Hot open in international law. There is Ihe Le^islalnro always of Iho .Mnnieipality, which caii pass Statutes wliieii heeonie law, which are made law /irn/iriu vii/orr. Whelher ri^hl or wronj;-, Ihey hccome Ihe law. There are Iho Coiu'ls sillin;;: conslanlly lo extend and to apply and enlarge the general jirinciples of law so as lo cover tli(! case. The President. — So is Miploniacy. I might suggest. Von have hi'en a Itiplomalisl \ourself. Mr Phelps. — Vos; so is diplonuicy, hul wilhoul Ihe sanction attending l\u'. decisions of the conslilnled Trihnnals in mnnici|)al (jovernnienl. Thei'el'ore, municipal law has ils rcgidaled steps of progress, either Ihrough Slalnles or Ihrough llie .ludgnienls id' Ihe C.oni'ls, hecause holh Ihose sources of aulhorily are aidhorily, — lliev make law. lint when il comes to Ihe point which your (pu'slion, Sii", suggests, when addressing liu; Court and invoking Ihe application of an eslahlisiied principle lo a new case, there von fall hack on, and evei'y C.ourl, consciously or incons- ciousK, must ho guided hy, lln^ plain consideration ol lighl in' wrong, until il gets III Ihe line wiiich si'parales Ihe domain of law from thai of inoralily. Thci'efore, il may \}r. Ihal I mighl appeal lo a C.imrl of.lustice foi' some remedy, lor some redress, which morally and eliiically I am en- titled lo, and I mighl bo mel with the answer, " Your claim is only a nioi'al one. \'ou are oidside of the domain (d' nmnicipal law. Von have l)oou ill-lroalod; yiui have sustained a wriuig liial we, as moralists and as jusl men, might be glad lo see redressed; iiul il is notwilhin llie domain of law lo deal wilh your case. Thai domain must ho enlarged by a Stalule iioforo we can deal wilh il. " iiul as long as Ihe suitor is with, : wind may he called the province of uiunicipal law, as long as he is dealing wilh a subject thai the law deals wilh, so long all Ihal he lias lo do is lo make out a just ease, unless lie is encountered by a Staluli> thai stands in his way or adverse decisions Ihal have settled I In- law otiiorwise. That is Ihe only distinction, in my judgment, Sir, if 1 inivo answered your ipn^slion. The President. — Yes; I am mii(h obliued. The Tribunal thorenpon adjourned until Friday, the L*:5rd of .lune, at 11. 30 o'clock.! FOHTY-I'dUinil DAY. .1 1 NK -I'M'; l«l)3 Mr Phelps. — M lln' iKlioiiniiniMit yeslcnlny, Sir, I hud liccn consi- dering the proposition in respect to inlerniilional hiw which iiiid hccii iid\ance(i liy my h-iirned friends on the other side, piirlictdiiiiy by the AKorneyCienerid, lh;d, nolhinj; could l)c c(nnpreh(;ndcd wilhin that th-ii- nilioii liial had not received the sanction of the eslahlislied nsaije of Nations; llial the retinirenients of jnslice, of elhics, of sound nioi'aiily lielween Nations wei'e not snflicieiil until the fiirllu'r saiu'lion iiad heen obtained of the custom of nations. I had endeavoured to point out thai the proposition involved this necessary consequence, tiial inlernalional hiw liecame incajialile of advance; llial it lerminated with the presiMit ; that, whenever any new (piestion was presented, it necessarily fell wilhoul scope, outside of the domain altogether no established usage for deciding it aright, tiie conse(puMice would be that it must be decided wrong. It will be for the Tribunal to remend)er' a point id' which I am sure they do not need to be reminded because it must have occurred to the attention and reflection of all tiu' Mendiers of Ihe C.ourl, llial the constilnlion of inlernalional Arbitration is in itseifa new feaUire in inleruidioual law. Only on two lU' three occasions in the history of Ihe world lias any such thing l)eeii attempted, aiul those have been occasions when Ihe issues between the disputing nations were principally, if not erdiridy. simple issues of fad, of figures, which realh involved no (|uestions of inlernalional law, or no other novelty than always attach to Ihe linding of fads upon evidence in disputed cases. It must be reiuend)ered, Ihen. if such Tribunals, as I am now addressing, ai-e to exist, are to be useful, Ihey must be aulhori/.ed to meet every case of new impression which it becomes necessary to decide. They are not called logelber, Ihey can never bt> called togeliu'r, for Die purpose of simply acknowledging their own incapacity, for the purpose of saving " ^on have invited us to determine this impoilant question which must be determined somehow or other belween these Nations, wlii(di, if it cannot i)e determined by arbitrament, Ihe nation claiming the right must assert lor itself. You ha\e invited us in the interests of peace and of humaniiy to determine llial (piesfMrn l)ut we lind that we arc incapable of it. "' \Yliy.' Hecause it has never arisen before. The fact that it lias never aiisen before is Ihe very reason why — INitI — {III iirliilriilidii Itccoincs iioi'cs'iary. Niilions do not rosoi'l (o Ailiilralioii 1(1 (l('l(M'iiiiiii' Hiom; |piiiici|il('s ol' law wliicli an' aln-iiily ilclci'iiiiiHMl and iiiidi'i^lood. TliiTi' is no occasion for llial. No inlcllijicnl niilion as against aiiolliiT nalion if il were so dispo'.cd would iindorlakn to dis- |iiili> sni'li |ii'o|Misiliiin. It is wlicii llicv dill'iT ii|ion llii< |ioinl of what is law — wlicii till' (|ii('stion is so far niidi'tcrmincd iiy iisaj;:' and I'lisloin tli'if il caiinol Ik; nn!insw(>ralil\ asst'i'liMJ. On cillnM' siilc that a swiT slioiild III' oik; way or tlii' oilier. Il is then tiiiit the inler- venliini of the Trihiiiial is to lie determined ii|ioii. II would there- fore he no answer and I he;; thai il will not he inferred from what I say upon this |(oinl. which I hope to dismiss prt;||y soon once foi- all from my pari of this discussion — I hi-i;- that il may not he iinderslood llial I am trealiiifi this case as a new one — as one that is not covered h\ Iheestalt- lished principles of law. I shall conleml to the conti'ary willi very f;real contidence. I!nt I am on the point which at the tiireslndd should ho very clearly iinderslood of what is to take place, if I am, in the jnd^iiii'nl of the Trilimial, re;;arded as wroiii; in m\ assiimplion — if instead orcoiicnrrinjj; in m\ view thai the ii-eiieral |)rinciples oflaw iiil(!rnalional and niimicipal thai are applicahle to this case and completely control and prescrihe its decision, llic Trihmial or some of its Memliors mifjht hoofo|Hnion that perhaps a qneslioii more or less now was |iresented. Therefore il hecomes imporlanl and material to clearly nndersland as far as possihle in Iho lirsl inslance what is lo take place in that event. Now, Sir, suppose I wei'e lo Inrn ahoni the proposilimi of my learned friend, and apply il to liis own case, I fear thai the result would uol lie one thai would satisfy liim with llie llieoi y from which il was derived. The fallacs id' the whole urgnmeiit on Ihe pail oKireal llrilaiii in lliis case; is that il starts hy assmniiii;- thai this deslrnclioii of llie seal herd, of which wi' complain, is tla; exeri'i^e hy lliese persons cn^a^ed in it of a plain and (dear riiiiil which il is tiie ohjecl of IIk; l'iiile(| Slates in some way to defeat or to rcslricl. That lie;;s the whole (|iieslioii and lirings the rase lo an end hefore it is heijnn, for if Ihese people are in the e.xercisc ofa plain and clear rif;ht, upon wlial iironnd can it he d(Miied to them? On what fodlinj;- can the I'liited Slales complain n\' Ihe conse(piences to them of Iheexcrciseliv Ihese | pie of what i-; a plain and clear ri;;lil initio si^lil of iiilornalional law. The case is al an end when thai is assumed. There is nothiii},' m(U'e to he said. Tliere is no plainer proposition in law than that tlio c(niso(|iieiK'os to ono individual of the exercise liv another individual ofa plain le-al ri'ilil, has no eilecl al all upon it. T! ■ . may he moral cousideralions llial a man may address lo his nei.iililiou, >■ :,) liis frieiul. Id induce him to forliear the exercise of his riiihU; Iml lliev have no ellect upon Hie ri;;lil itself. The man lo whom those considerations are addressed is perfectly al liherly lo say, " I cannol jjo into those : I sland upon my rijihls ; I choose to exercise them." \\u\ the law justilics him in doinj; i|, hdwever unfriendly and unncii;lihouil\ , oven, perhaps, morally wrong in one view of the case his condnel mifj;lil lie. The ques- ■SM) \ — tS!t-J — tion ill lliis casi' is wlii'thi'i' llirv liiive siicli ii ri^lit. ii|ion llii> lads ami circiinislanri-s of this ciisc as an< ruiiiiil lo fxisi, Inking llic wIkiIc nt' Hi casi^ ii|)on lli(< wiiiilo cvidi'iii-i'. ami ili'lcniiinin^. Iii>l urall. wlial arc tliu exacl lin't'^ ami cin'Miii-laiiccs llial arc iiialoiial lo he niiisidcrod. W'lial is llils condiirl.' W hal is lis cliaraclcr'.' Wlial arc ijs coiisimiiiciiccs? Tlift (|iioslioii iswiii'llicr lliosewlio arc sccdviiij,' lo work siicli ci)Msc(|iu'iicl's, til do siiidi lliiiiifs, can make oiil ils jiislilicalioii. Well, now, sa\s m\ learned I'rieiid, inleriialioiial las\ is wlial llic na- tions have a;;reed lo regard as inlernalional law. Is there an\ iisa.;(! in t'avor oreondiii'l ol'lliis di>si'ri|ilion in lliu whole hislor\ of mankind, in all the inlei-coiirse of nalioiis since Hie dawn of civili/alion, and since law licj;an lo lake Hie jilaee of mere violence? Is Ihere anv soi'l of |)rci'edcnl I'or such a hiisincss as Iliis is, if il is what VNC claim i' lo he. and whal I expecl lo dcinonslraic il is. IT il is any loiip'r a siil.jcci ol'donlil al this slap! iirilie dehalc, is Iherc aii\ |ireceilent for il: is Ihen an\ nsap; for il; did il over lake phu-c heforo? Is llien; a troaty, is lliere a jiidfimenl, is Ihere llio lan^;iiaj;(! of any wriler, is Ihere nnylliinj; n.i Hie face oi' !li(> carlli in law, lileralnre. or hislory, thai can he riled in hchalf of >-",i'li a |iro|iosilion? Il is for Hii'in lo eslahlish Iliis jiislilicalioii, and if m\ learned friend's idea of inlernalional law is vh^Ui. we inijthl safely cnoiifih acce|tl il for the purpose of Iliis case, unsound as il is, as a jicneral proposition : we mifihl safely enoiijili aceepi il for Hie piii'pos(! of litis case, heeause Hie elleel is disastrous upon llieir allempted jnslilicalioii. Aiiolher word on Iliis poinl. How has internali iw jjrown? \\\\i\[ are llio only means hy which il ever ean advance . mean in Hie absence of any aulliorilalive liihimal such as Ihis hecomes so far as llic nations concerned in il are concerned — no fiirllier. Your jud;;inenl, however hiiilily il may he res|>ecled as a declaralioii from Hie very liijihcsl (piarler, upon careful evaminalioii of law. however wid(,'ly il mif;lil he res- pected, does not hind anyhody exccpl Hie parties. Any other nalioii in the world is perfectly al liherly lo say, "We reject Hie conclusions of these genllemen, and we decline lo he hound hy llii'Ui. If wi; wish lo have law made for us hy an Ai hitralioii, we will have a voice in eslahlishiiii; the Arhitralioii ami in selectinfj; its memhers. Willi jtrcal res|)ect lo these eniineiil i;i'iilleiinMi. we repudiate Hie resiill. Let those who ai;reed lo il follow il. They are at liherly to do il." Well, llieii. in the ahsence of Hie possihilily of any Trihunal or any convenlion or any oilier means hy which an aulliorilalive result can he deduced upon a new (|ues- lioii, how can il advance? Mow has il ailvaneed? .lust hy Hie nation whose necessity calls for it, nsscrlinf; what it is williiiij; to stand upon in Hie face of the world as right: jnsi as in Ihis casi;, if this Trihunal had not been consliluted by the Treaty, the liiiled Slates had said, as in my judiiuient I hey should have said, wilhoiil Hk; inlervenlion of anyhody, " We shall not permit our important interests to be destrovcd by such conduct as Ihis, We — I8!U — will mil |M'niiil lliis raci; iil' sciils lliul hclmifi Id our Icrrilorv , llial iirc \ii- liiiilili; Id IIS and Id iiiaiiKiiiil Id Ik; cslcriiiiiiatcii in a harlianiiis and iiiliii- nian niaiiiii'r, iDiliiddi'ii liy llic law dI" every coiiiiliA in llie wiirld, lur Hie s(de luiilil dI' lliis lillle kiiol id' |ieD|di'diiriii^' llie very I'uw years while Hie snitjecl ol' disjiiile exists. We shall nol |pei'mil it and will sland ijel'Dru lli(! WDiid Dii llial. " There would have heen llie iiiilialive : llhM'e would have heen III" liirlli of this |iro|iosiliDii. .Now lei llie world answer; let llie o|iiiii(ni ol'inankind ho expressed ; lei jurislH doal willi il ; let Coiirls ol'.liisliee deal with aiialonons cases. In similar cases let nations lollow il il'lhev jilease, and lei oilier nations ae(|iiiesee, or, on the other hand, lei Ihe seiix' of Hie W(nld he expressed that, the liiiled Slates (io\ei"i- ineiil are wroii;;. Ilial they have asserted what will not be aecopled and lollowe iisajii; of nations; and then lei Hie proposi- tion fall, lias eol that heen the history. Sir, of every single proposition of iiilernalional law that is to he found in print to-day, since piracy and rohhery and plunder were all the internaliunal law thai all this world knew. Well, this Trihiinal is siil)>lilntod, hy the agreement id' parlies, for the ri;;lil thai the I iiiled Stales would have had to assert that proposition, to phice themselves upon il, to enforce il. if they eoiild, in this individual case. They have wai\ed thai; they have diseharfiod tliesi! vessels, or some (d' llieiii that were condemiied : they li im? ^topped the arresl upon the sea of any further cruisers peiidiiii; Ih -e iie;;otiiilioiis. They have asi.ed yon to say what lliey would have had a rii;lil to say for themselves if your intervention had not heen invoked. Is Hie answer to thai to be, " We do mil know liecaiisi? it is new ; because lliere has heen no usuf^e ol' .Nalions"? Why .' IJecause no such oulraj;e was ever altenijited be- fore; tliere is no precedent because there never has been an occasion for a precedent. Thine is no nsajie, for nobodv ever attempted any sik h lliiii;; before; and, Iherefore, while what is ri|;lit or vvlial is plain, while Hie way-farin;;' man. tiioujih a fool, when he looks at llie circiimslaiices of the case, can see wlial jiislice calls for. what is sound policy, and Ihe interests of mankind ^u fur as Iliey have an interesl in lliis suhjecl, — while thai is all plain eiioiijih, wliili- we can see. as iiiy learned friend says, what Hie law ouj;lil to Ik;, we are powerless to declare it. Then, Sir, if yon have decided lliai case, you lune decided another thin;;; and that is, thai no fiirllier inleniational Arhilralion will vex Hie ^ioiiei'al ear of mankind. If thai is to he the conclusion, if that is to be Hie conlrihulion of such Tribunals lo Ihe science of inleniational law. their mission will he very speedily terminated. You are in the place. Sir, I most ■■• iieetfulh say il, which the (iovernmenl of the United Slates mi^dit have occupied foritself. Instead of asserting their ri;;lit and pullini; Ihemselvesoii the j;<'iieial sense of mankind as every nation does in every such step, that (iovernmenl has stepped aside and has said — ''Say vmi what weshonhl have heen Jnstilied iiidoin;^-; say you what you would have done if you had constituted the Cabi- — ISIH iicl lliul ciiiilrollcl till' alFiiirs ol' llie lliiiled Stales' Govcrnmeiil, suy yoii wliiil you would liuvf dono, Sir, if yoiiliud been liio Presidfiil of llie Uiiilod Slalcs, (M'Secrelary ol'Slalc, inlliis (Miiei'geiicy ; lellus what you think you woidd have had a ri;;iit to ih)and what it was ueccessary to(h), aud wiiat you believe (hat niaiikiiid would havcjuslilied you indoiii};. " The President. — We hear the same hiiiguuge, Mr IMielps, from hotli sides. Mr Phelps. — It is inevitable, Sir; it is an inevitable conehisiou ; but it leads to another inevitable eonclusion, and that is that the Tribunal lias to assert and decide upon so much international law as is necessary to the dclerinination of lliis dispute. That is all. .Now, another word about the assent of mankind which is, of course, the ultimate anthority, the last judgment on questions of international law. It conies to that sometimes. \ word about how that is (o ite ascer- tained where it has nut been so far expressed by general usage that it may be regarded as established. In the lirsl place, it may be inferred in the proper case. In the next place, it may be presumed in the proper case It ni'xy be anticipated by inference; it may be anticipated by presumption, or by both. It may be inferred where the proposition in question has been made the municipal law, as in this case, of every civilised country. Ai'e yon to infer that, if all nations could be called togellier to decide upon this (luestion, they would rej(H't the universal rule which they all adopt at home, — the |)roteclion of animals of this kind during the breeding lime that are valuable to man? That is universal law now in civilisation; and as I said, it goes even further, for there are still left sonu' other motives in our lace bi'sides lh(jse of dollars and cents, and pounds and shillings. It goes even finther; it protects those harmless animals with wiiich the Creator has furnished this world and which now live here withuut detra- cting in any way whatever from the use and enjoyment that mankind has to make of the world. It protects even those aud especially does it |pro- tect those which aie not merely harmless, not merely contributors to what might be regai'dcd as perhaps a sentimental enjoyment but to those which do minister, in their place and accoi'ding to thcii' measure, to the wants and comforts, or luxuries, of mankind. That is universal law. Ndw when the (|uestioii is wiielher that is to be applied to this case, what is the fair inference? In the next plac(! it is Ui ho presuuu'd be- cause it is to be presumed that every natiim will nssonl to what is plainlv right and just. I am making these observutious ujion the assiwnption that what we contend for here is plainly right aud just. We shall con- sider llial more lull y later on. I assume that for (he purpose (pondence tliat the oilier side does not mean what is right? Can it be be carried any further? Will any nation submit to that? If its adversary its opponent, its bro- tlier nation, so Car forgets the proprieties and amenities wliicli arc obsei- \o(\ between nations, as to charge, oven indirectly or remotely, that it is not the purpose of the nation with whicli it i?- dealing to do right — that it means to do wrong — there is tiie end the discussion. Uuti lliat is withdrawn and apologised for it can i)c carried no further with any self- respecting nation. >o diplumalic representalive would for a single moment. 1 mean no di))lor(ialic representative in a question that was the subject of discussion or negotiation when there were two sides to il — woidti ever peniiit himself to send forth a document Ihat hehad not carefully revised for that purpose alone to see if, in the warmlli of debate in the earnestness of his con- viction, he iiail permitted himself to use one word that could possibly be construed as an intimation that it was not the intention of tin) nation witii which he was dcjaling lo do what was rigiit ami what was just. Suppose every nation in the woi'ld, as well as the nations whose repre- sentatives are here and who j-ond a representative lo Ibis conference — suppose il bad b.^ei! instead oi' a;! .Vrbitralion, u Convenlion invited, in whicii every /lalion should send its most eminent men to lestifyand repre- sent and say what is the sense of mankind. Is it supposed there would he any question in the first place aboulvxbether what is right and just should lake place, and. noxl, what is just and right upon the fads and circuius- lanccs of this T.ase? ^ow ' lia\e pointed out what appear lo me, with much deference to my learn(,'d friends, to be the necessary results of that delinition of inler- nalioiial law. Let me now slate our [troposilion, I have slated theirs. I beli 've I huve stated il fairK. I have tried to, and I have eude/tvoi'ed lo trace il out to its results — to it-^ re~iulls as a gcm'ral proposition, to its I't'sulls upon the det'^rminalioii of Ibis case. What is our proposition in the place of it? It is liiat Ihe law ol nations is in every case, and all cases, what can he seen lo be just and right, what Ihe bum n conscience, what Ihe .-ciise of right and wrong, what liie general idea- of morality, elliic*;, and humanity, that prevail in the world, rccogni > a.^ right. Vou n\ay call il the law of nature if \re lilted out on the American side, and made legitimate captures under the law that has been ap|)lie(l lo that siii.jecl, ami brought that cap- lure in lor conliscalion to a court of llie IJr.iled Slates, theclaiiiiaiil could not come there, and contend that llie lew should not bo applied bciMiise privateering on the whole was wror.g. Ther(> \(Mi have an eslablishiHl rule oflaw. eslablisiied b\ iisageand recogiiilioii, and eslablishe(l lievoud dis|mle. Tlierefoi'e, 1 sa\ there is iiolliiiig of iiiteriialioiial law, and there never can be anything in internalional law except lliese recognized prin- ciples of right and justice belween nations, thai oblaia belwoi'ii iialioiis as far as Ihey are applicable, jiisl as they obtain bclwceii individuals unless \on run counter — unless \iiii are mel by a propo-ilicui oflaw Ihal has become -o far established by Ihe usage of nations that a Iribunal is nol at liberty to disregard il. Thai is our proposition, iiiid as applied lo this case absliaci principles are of no value. They are of no value in a case of lliis sort unless tliev apply lo the con- crete case before us. II is iniieli more imporlaiil to enlighten mankind than In (Injustice to the case to be delermined — as applied lo this case, if we are right in tlu; fads that we assei't, if from those facts the chiiracler oflhis eomlucl, which is allempled lo be jiislilied, is made plain and clear as a matter of justice, nioralilv, and sound policy, llien Ihal i- inlerna- lioiial law, unless il can lie shown on the other side tli;:! a usage to the contiarv has become established. I shall Ironble son, sir, as this pro- position has been disputed, an elemenlai-y one, as il seems to me, — 1897 — willi llii' llioii^lits of 11 low wrilors whose aulliority is (inivcrsally rcco- fjiii/od ill llio world. K is said l)\ my learned friends, (lial my Associate, Mi'C.arler. has lioneolV inh) llieidonds.and into the n^f^ioiis of metaphysics, and lie lias explored the \\i-ilinj;s of those philosophei's wlio consider wiiat tile hiw on.niil lo lie, and what tlie \d\\ will he when the millennium comes, perhaps a'ul he pro|)oses to siihstiliile tli:il for the law. What wc; eon- tend for in the present case we contend is the law . II may he alarming : it has alarmed my learned friends : it may he alarming lo have ilil, that it ought to hcllie law, thai it is necessary that it shonlil he the law, if aiis properly of this kind is to I'emain on the face of the earth for a longer time than it takes to destroy it. I do not lliiiik that militate-; against llu' proposition. Itiit ! do not concur with m\ learned friends wiien tliey si \ that we are putting forwai'd what we say ought to lie the law. We are putting forward what we say is the law as completely eslahlisheil, mon! completely eslaiilished, hy the weight of what may he called aiillioritv. than aii\ proposition in the domain of international law that any man can lie ingenious enough to suppose', heeause this is the foundation tliat underlies everything. 1 shall not read I hopcatanx weary length, hut I must trouhle \ou with a few brief extracts that are directly to the point, not of what ought to he law — lei that go for the present ; Iml what is the law. .\nd I will refer in the tirst place to the judgment of Sir Itohert i'hilliniore in the case that has been referred to before, of the (Jiipon V. Kci/ii, in the 'l\u\ l''.xclie(|iier. 1 read for convenience from tin; Ame- rican Argument pagi; IT.'i because I lo not know that there i- iinvthing in the full text of the judgment IImI i'^ inalerial upon this point hut of course the case has been riled and will be liefoie \ou. I.ct me sa\ first that in thai ease the (jucstion was so far a new on. Iiat llie .liidges of I'.ngland all assembled were divided as nearly as |»os-il)li' equallv in res- pect of its deterniiiiation. It comprised as the i'lnglish (.nurt-. alwa\- do some very einiiKMit men and all most capable, and the question \\,i< j-o far a new one in its application lo the lator over them have IVeipii'iitly MO other recourse for deteriiiiniiig their ivspe -live rijfhts but lo that iTasonai)b>seiiliiiienlofrij;bl and wroiijr, hut to those moral truths already brniifibt to light and to those wliicli are still lo be di'inonstrated. This is what is meant when it is said that natural law is the hist basis id' iiiteriiiitional law. This is why it is impoilant thai (loveinmeiils, dip! als, and puhlici-^ls that act, negotiate, or write upon siicli inalters should have deeply r.ioleir in Ihems.'lves lliis scnlimeiit of riglil and ol wrong which wc have ju>l didiiied. as well a-^ the kiiowleilge of Ihc point of cerhiinly point de cerliliide wbeiv ihe bmiiaii mind has been able to attain this oiib'r of tnillis. Then Vattel is also cited on pages 22 and 2'.) of Ihe same hook, from the ."idlh page of his work : — We iiiiisl, Iheivfoiv, ap|dy to nations ilio rule-: of nature, in onler to discover 3i0 — 1000 — wliatlhcir oliligalions aiv, and wlial llicir riglils : consoquenlly, the Imr n/' iinliini.t is originally no oilier than lln' Imr nf natidv nppliod lo nations. Then l'"eri;iison, at the lo|i ol' page '2'i of llic same liook, uses lliis laiifjuajio : — Invcsligalini; llins lliis spirit of law, wo lind llii" dctinilion ol' intnnalional law to consist in rrrlniii ridi'S nf niiiihul ir/iir/i yrusnn. jimmjiteil hi) ri'iisciciire, ili'iluees n,v ciiiiSDiKiiit In jijsliri', ii'itli siif/i liiiiilnlioiis mid iii(iilifiralii)iis as mini be fxliiblislii'd bij (ji'neral cnmenl, In iiK'fl Iff twigencicf n/ l/ir /ircxcnl shilc of siicirli/ ns r.iisliiig n)iiiiiiii iiiilioiix niid irliir/i moilcrn ricllizail xlnh's rcijurd us biiidiiii/ lliein in l/ieirrcliiliuiis irilli oiii' ininlfiry, irilli ii f'lrre n)iiipnriilih> in nnUirc iiud degren In l/inl bindiiH/ the. I'on- srii'iiliiiiis jinson In obi'ij Un' liiifs n/ lii.< rniiiilri/. 'riieii fi'Oiii Ti'sia, the I'drlii^iicse wriler, I will read IVoiii paj^e 2.') jus! Ilii'i'e linos; and I should pcrliajis ap()lof:;isi' lur reading' al all upon this sidijei'l. hiil it has l)ceii lii'nii^hl in i|iicslion in n inanniT Ihal I did nol expect anil I shall he pardoned, thcrelorc, lor snpporlinj; what I have altenipted to sa\ in my own impcrfecl expression of these views by the lanj^uajie of these whose anihoiity is universally admitted. AlllKingli in the iiliiliisopliical (uder natnral law ocnipies the liisl plaee. vol in tho prailical nKlornl' exlonial rclatiims, wlien ([ni'slions are In he decided or nef.'(j- tiullons ccinduclcd, its rank is no lonf;or tho same; in these cases the olilii:ations contracted in the nanir iprcoiivenlinMal law. in virtue cd' existing treaties, are con- sidered in the tirst place. If smli treaties are lacking, the law of cnslom esla- hlishes the rnle; and when there arc ncilher treaties to invoke nor cnstoms to ftd- low, it is nsnal to proceed in accordance with what reason establishes as jnst, and with sinii)le prinii|)les uf niilnral law . There are othercilations, and numerous citations to he found. I shall nol, as they are in print hel'ore you, take the Iroiihie lo pursue this I'ur- ther. I)eeaus(> it will he seen thai conliuenlal .liu'ists, i'luf^lish. .\merican. and iu the foundations itf law from which il proceeds, Init in interuidional law, which can he no otherwise presei'ihed, lliey are the oidy resord except when, in th(> lirsl place, you have a Traly hetween the parties which sellies the (piesliou for them and, in the se- cond place. \(iii have an estahlished nsaj^e or eusloin thai settles il i;e- nerally. Then, Sir, there is a passajic from Vallel which will ask Mr (larler kindly lo read for me. Mr Carter. - - Il has heeu partly read already. II is his preliminary chapter to the Kn^lisli translation, pat;e ."Id, Mr ('.hill;' ; edition, the .Norlli American edition of \H\\. As men are siilijerl | imlions Iho rules of lln' law of nature in oriier In disrover what (liese obi ■- }.'aliiins ari' anil wlial their rij;lits. Cunseipiently. the law nf nations is ori(.'inail\ no other than till' law of nature applieil to nations. Itnt as llii' appllration of a rule cannot lie Just anil reasonable unless it be niailo in a manner suitable to the subject, we are not to iniat,'ine (he law of nations is precisely anil in every case the same as the law of nature, with the ililferonm only of the subjects to which it is applied, so as lo allow of our subslitulin;.' nations for iniliviiiiials. A stale or civil society is a subject very ililb'rent from an iiiiliviilual of the human lace, from which circumstances, pursuant to the law of nature itself, there result in many cases very dllb'reut obligations anil rij;bls, since the same j.'cueral rule applieil to two subjects cannot proilnce exactly the same decision when the subjects are dill'ercut; and a particular rule which is perfectly just wilb respect to one subjcel is not a|)|dicable to another subject of a i|uili! dill'erenl nature. There are many cases. tli(>refore. in which llie law of nature does not decide between stateand state in the same manner as it coulil bclwceu man and man. We must, therefore Know how lo accommodate Ibe appliialion of it lo iliffcri'Ul snbjeits; and il is the art of thus applying; it with a precisiou fnunded ou rii,'bt reason that renders tbijlaw of nations a distinct science. We call that the Necessary Law of Nations which consists in the application of the law of nature to nations. 11 is necessary, because nations arc absolulidy bound to observe it. This law contains the precepts iireseriheil by the law of nature lo slates ouwiiom that law is not less ol)|iu'atory than on individuals. Since .states are composed of men, their resolutions are laki'u by men as the law of nature. It is biudinu' on all nu'u under whatever relations they act. This is Ibe law which (iiotiiis and those who follow him call Ihe internal law of nations, on account of its bcinir oblij;atory on nations in point of conscience. Mr Phelps. — Willioul lerorriiif; lo an\ oliiei' aullioridos ol'wiiicli I liavo lueuiufaiiila, and many loo of wiiieii ai'c l)e round in llio prinlod arj.;umonl already sulnuitlod. I leave il willi lliis cilalion, whicli scorns lo nie iiisliiiclive. This cilation is IVoni the French Code, arlicle i of Ihe Civil cude. .\ jiuli,'!' who under Ihe pretence Ihal a law is silent, obscure or insufllcient refuses to decide a case may bo prosecuted as bein;,' ;;ullty of a di-nial of justice. The President. — Thai is Ihc i'lido tiril. Mr Phelps. — Ves, my learned friends have dcmonslraled Ihal ninui- cipal slalnles do nol exiend hexoini llie Jnrisdiclion of Ihe slale, and 1 do mil ehiiiii Ihal il is hindiiif;, hul ilaU'ords fond for relleetiim. Il is a wise provision. II answers. Sic, Ihe i|nesliun Ihal you were j;ood eiiongh lo pill lo 1110 ycslerdav, whellier wlial I have asserled in respect of iiiterna- lioiial law is nol eiinally true of miiiiiiipal law, Ihal so loiii;- as \iui arc wilhiii Mil' domain ormimicipal law. viilhiii Ihe province dealiiif.', lor ius- laiiie, wilh Ihe ipieslioii of properly v.liich iiiiisl always he williin llie do- main of mnnieipal law — so loii^ as you are asking; lor Ihal sorl of relief Ihal Ihe law is accuslomed lo j^i\e, il is enough for voii lo show Ihal jus- lice reipiires il unlil \oii are cnconnlered by eilher a slatiile m' a principle or proposilioii of law thul Iuin lii>en sellled lo Ihe coiilrary. In ullicr words, III pill Ihe proposilioii in aiiolher form, Ihe oiil\ way in a Coiirl of .liisliee, even in miinieipal law, lo answe-llie man that demands a ri^lil Ihal is in the province of law, and .salislies the Court ilisjiisl andlieousht lo have il. is lo show him the law has heen decided a;;ainst him ollierwise, I lOll'i — upon some groiiiitl ol' policy, or wlialcver il mny l)C lliiit lies the hand of the (lourt from doing sslial (liey olliei'\>ise would do. Now I como hack lo lliis tase, and I liope llio lime lias nol been (|uile wasled in considering lliis, lliougli, as will be apparenl iVoni wlial I bave to say, il may nol be necessary lo invoke il on our side. We come lo Ibis particular queslion and Ibe rigbl of llicse people In prosecule Ibis business of wbat is called pelagic scaling. Of course, if Ibey bave nol Ibe rigbl to do it, Ibe United Stales have a right to protect Ibemselves. Then arises the queslion which my learned friends, with the great ingenuity Ibal comes to able advocates with long experience, have sought lo dis- perse, as I may say, by analysis. " What does the right of the t'nited Stales stand on? " Well, as I have said before, we are entitled lo answer Ibul question, and il is the legitimate approach to Ibis subject. " Wbat docs your rigbl sland on.' "' We arc hereon our own territory, dealing with a race of animals that is appurtenant to it; begotten there, born there, reared there, living there 7 months in the year, protected from the extermination that has overtaken their species in every other spot on the habitable globe, and wbicli would speedily overtake them here if you were to relax the reins of Government lor one moment. One year after Ibe United States took possession, that is to say after Ibcy acquired title and before the necessiiry legislation could be had and arrangements made to police these Islands an enormous number of seals, some 2()(l(l() were riiiled lo answer ■' Wliiil ■y, dealing lerc, l)orn d IVoin llie ;|)ol on tlic r soil were ir alter llie "(1 title and lis made to I were des- rtould over- uhislry; we f wliicli you itivc pliolo- ivc and the i, llie clcan- barharism ; lis in Hanks. Ics derivinj; list lie lakcii ins it is |)os- md il is llie )re distinctly uid industry on of wliose nne lliat lor onr juslitica- je particular cli a slate of industry, or it is assailed " What in your justification'.' " They {{o into a tine spun argumenl, and I say it with much respect and, of course, in all that I say I trust I need nol slop to choose the words Unit I have lo use, — I may at once say, once for all, with the highesi respect to my learned friends because I am happy to say that the words " learned friends " are not a mere lij^ure of speech as far as I am concerned, — " what is your properly? What is it in? Is il in the iiarticiilar seal, that yon nniy follow all over the world? Is il in liie herd ? (Ian you have a properly in the herd, if you have not a property in every one? What is il? What is the exact nature, — how do yon deliiie il?" .My friends that are so adverse lo goinj; down to the foundation of things in another part of the case, are very anxious lo gel lo the extreme foundation in lliis case. What is the remote analysis? There is not a claim of [uoperly in the world but what to the mind I hat is shallow enough to be open to thai sorl of iiilluence, can be reduced to the point of ridicule l)y that process of business. Human I'ights are not dealt with in that way, I respecllully submit, in ('.ourls of Justice, or in Ihc estinialio'n of wise men. Our right is derived from the whole facts and I'ircumslances of the case. They result in what |)roperly delinod — is property ". What is the definition of the term" property?" Il is a word of the widest signilication — of the most general application; it applies lo every inleresi in every thing that is capable of appropriation and is valuable, which is recognized bylaw. It may be corporeal ; it maybe incorporeal. It may be ca|)ablc of manual possession ; il may be in- capable. 11 may be a riglil ; nothing but a .right. Il may bt; an inleresi, nothing but an interest. The man who undertakes lo deliiie the lerin " properly ",liasa long way to go, and many things lo consider. I have; property by Ihc law of I'lnglaiul, and by the law of one of the States of .Vnierica — lliougli Ihc general law of .Vmerica is (liil'erent — I have a properly in the light and in llie air; I have a right, that the Iiw will defend and protect, in the light and the air that comes in at my window, from having that shut out by the erection, by my neighbour, on h's own land, under proper circumstances, of a wall that shuts them out. In the very light and air of Heaven I have a priperly — a properly inleiesl; and the man cannot on his o\mi land, where he has a righ! ((j do everything that a man may do lawfully, build a wall that shuts them out. Is not that properlv? I have a right of way across my neighbour's land ; per- haps limited lo llie right lo walk over il; perhaps lo use il at a particular season of llie year only, for a particular jnirpose only — limiled in a thousand ways, or generally for all purposes. What do yon call llial? I cannot lake possession of the land. I cannot set fool on it for i'uy oilier purpose, but I may walk over it, or I ma\ walk over it lo a parti- cular wood or to a particular ice-pond? Is not that properly? I have a claim upon a man for damages for money under a contract. Is it nol property? Mow then when yon ask us lo deline with a rcnole analysis the precise nature in this last resort of the property ii'leresl that accrues lo a IUO( nalioii ill \>il(l aiiiiiiiils 1)1' (Ills sort iiixler just smli ('irc'iimslniu-cs as art; (lisclust'il ill lliis case t'l'iuii wliirli a valuable anil rivili/iii;; iiiiliisti \ lias arisen and is larrii'd on lor llio lii'iiutil of llii> nalioii, ami nl' llio world ul larfjo as far as (lie production is valuable lo liiinian use — wlieii iii\ friends aslv us lo delino lor llieiii wliiil llial |iro|icrly ri^lil or interest is, ! have arif;lit losay. willi f;real respect: " JtiHine it voiirselves; that is not nn/ business : it is my business lo assert it; lo show llial by universal law il is reco};iii/ed and |)rolei'ted, and tbal it iiiiisl be reco^ni/.ed and protected unless you wish I'or such product lo peri>li oil' llii! lace of the earl 1 1 : Thai is wlial I have lo do, Analyse il I'or yourselves; chrisleii il yourselves if il is necessary. It is a properlv in lerest — a piopciiy ri^dil — exlendinfi, as tar as the beiicticial character ol' il oxlends, receiving' all the proleclioii that it is necessarv to reciMve. I iiiight decline altogether — I sliull iiol. I am f^oiiij; to pursue Ibis ipieslion ol' analysis lo some extent lesl it lit? siiid ; Vou are asserlin),' a \\^\\\ here that you are afraid to altempl lo analyse. Iliil I premise what I have lo sav upon that poiiil by the respeclfiil assi;rlion llial I am called upon to do no such Ihiii;^ — that b\ the pi'iiici|iles of law llial are established — tbal have been recofjni/.eil by iisa^e all over this world, that is just as universal as Ihe existence of properly in Ibis case under which every pro|iert\ of (his sort in Iliis world is held lo day — a rif;lit llial has never been cliallenj,'ed in any inslanec — that b\ Ihe assciil of all man- kind has been acKiiowlcdjicd and prolecled everywhere. Those are Ihe fads upon which we slaiid, and let those who assail llieiii show that there is somethiiif; in the freedom of Ihe sea — that it is a branch of Ihe just freedom of Ihe sea that they are lo come and externiiiiute this |iroperly. When wi; have slated thai, we have slaled Ihe whole case in its leiij;lli and in ils bread Ibil. We have slaled it all. When we have proved before Ihe Ti'ibunal, the fads which we nsscrl lo be line in thai case, we have broiifihl Ihe case lo an end in Ihe jiidiiinenl of any man I res|)edl'ully believe acciislomed to apply Ihe priiici|ili's of law not lo abstract discus- sion, but lo the coiicrele fads llial arise in the successive eniergencies and interesls of human alTairs. .Now, Sir, let us };o a little I'urllier. Suppose we consider what Ibis claim of properly does exactly stand upon? There are some preliminary reniarks llial should be made about thai, as il seems lo me. The lirst is, llial Ihe rules of property exli^nd jiisl as complelch lo wild animals unib'r proper cirenmslances — perhaps I should say valuable wild animals not noxious — Ihe rules of law extend to those animals just as completely, under proper circumstances, as they do to any oilier properly in Hie world. Where it is said llial this kind of propeilv is ipialitied, it is meant thai it is ijualilied only because it is liable lo cease without the act of the owner. No ri^lil of property except in wild animals that 1 know of ceases without the act of the owner. Us forfeiture to the public law of Hie country is noexceplion, because thai depends on the owners act. s iis 11 ro iisliN lias world 111 wlirii iii\ ilfiM'sl is, liiil is iiol iiiiivorsal iii/.od and aco of llio lirisk'ii it I |iro|ii;ily oxli'iids, I iniglif i (|iiuslioii ri^lil hero lial I liavo 1111 calltMl ^ llial ai'u Norld, llial idtT wliicli I dial has if all iiiaii- sc arc Hie llial lli(>i-(; ol' llir just i |(ni|)t'i'l\ . loiijilli and ivi'd hol'oiv (', \s(! Iiav(! 'os|)L'L'l('ully aft disciis- inor^iMKies r wiial tiiis irclimiiiai'v riie liisl is, inals undiT uiiiuals not ('oin|)K'luly, i;iiy in lliu inalilied, it willioul. llie nials liial i ) llic public owners acl. — i!»o;i — ll(> ninsl first bo found {{uilly ofsomcliiin}; licforc tlie |)ui)lin law (ni^os llic |iro|H'ily away IVoni liiin witlioul coniiK'iisation. The inopoi'ly docs not (■case. Tlu! |)ro|icrly in wild animals ollliissorl nia\ cease l)\ llie ani- mals repiinin^ llieir wild state and foisaivin^' llieir iiropiieloi-. Thai is what is meant, and all lliat is said, when it is said that it is " (|ualitied." Tliena ri};lil orpid|ierly, my learned friend the Attorney General sa^s, miisl alwayshave its lool in Municipal law. Thai is true inrespccl loindi- viduid property. .No man can possibly have any properly rif^lil or interest of any description that is not ^iven to him bylli(;ninnieipal law under which he lives, or a! least nil dor wliicli the propcrtv thai Ik; elalins is conli'olled. If ho has ^ot it ri^dillv , it is dci-ived under some municipal law — the law of his (iomicilethe law of lliesitus,lhe law ofthe place of contract. How is it with (iovernment'.'Tlioliovcrnment creates the municipal law : if is not the sub- ject of municipal law except to Hie limiledoxtenl in which it mi};lil deal, as an individual minlit deal, when he buys a particular piece of properly ; bnlas a p'ueral proposition (iovernment does not derive its title from municipal law — it derives its title from assertion and possession, unless thai asser- tion and (lossession controverts the rights of some other nation, (iovern- nicnl takes possession: it asserts Hint it has a tille. That makes a title unless, in niakiiiii thai assertion, lakiiif^ that possessiim, it inl'rin;;es Hie iif{ht of another nation. It is upon thai, that the whole tlieor\ ul' disco- ver\ and oceupalion depends. I may not go into souk; sea and lind an undiscovered island in there, and lake possession of it as ni\ properly. .My (Im-rniiiipiif ci\i\, and all Hie laixl in the world is held by Ihetiovern- ments Ihal possess it and control it under just exacth thai litli; — by oc- cupation or discovery, or by succession (o those who did occupy anil dis- cover, it is assertion and possession. I repisit, that i;i\es a title to a Government unless it transf^resses Hie i'ij;lils of others who alone can com- plain. Mow came we with Hie I'ribilof islands? lUissia discovc '^d them, occupied them, kept them, and asserted the tille to which they had no other claim in the world but prior discoverv, and transferred it to the I'lii- led Sidles. We stand upon their tille. These seals are appurtenant to it, and thai Government had taken possession ami founded this industry and set all this machinery in motion — sent their crui/ers lliere lo protect it. and their afjents there lo carrv it on and save and preserve animals that would have disappeared loiiu hel'oie an\ of ns were troubled with legal questions if it had not been for that interposition. .Now, then,' in another suf;;iestion before I come to the precise consi- deration oflhis question of property. Over all wild animals — I moan all useful wildanimals — every GovornmenI has the priinai\ right of control — not Hio properly. It does iiol own that. II does in this case bid not alwaxs. The Governinent does not own the partridge on my land; if it is killed // does not belong lo the (iovernment but the right of complete control, so that the GovornmenI has a right to say to mo, and doe? .ay everywhere lo its subjects; Vou shall not slas the partridge on — l!Mlti — your own liintl llial is noccssaryfor your food — voii sliiiU Kill il oiiK al a cerlaiii iieriod ol'lln! yar in a ccrliiiii way iiikIit enrlniii rcslriclions, |M'rlia|is l»y lakiiij; oiil a ccrlaiii lircnsc. Il may p> fiirlli(M' and say. Vou shall no! kill il for a soriesol'ycais il'il is dciMnod in>c(;ssary for llio gttiioml |)rosfrvation of Hkvso animals wliicli witii llinir capacily lo (fo from oiin proprietor lo anotlior never can In; made lli(> iiltsoliilu properly llial domnslie animals are. The theory (d' proleclinfi, for Iho henelit cd' mankind these animals, is eai-ried so fai' Ihal ever'y (jovernnient assumes without dispule, the primary and prior I'l^ld, id' I'onti'oi, even ovei- the owner on whose land the hird (U* animal is, while it is there. .\nd that is a proposition that is no Jon^iM' open to any dispute Now, the elaini of properlv, I say a^ain in this case wjiicii is assailed hy the pelajjie scaler, is a claim hy the (iovernmenl of the I'nited States ; and it will he seiMi, I think, hefore \ am through Ihal Ihal may make an important ililferenee — that a (iDri'rnnn'iil lias eerlain rij;hts ajiainsl con- ducl on the hifih seas which an iniliriclion in the ownership of sncii an industry as this wIumi if il were mini\ I nii^dil not he. Then we come Id this proposition : in the lii'sl place look al il in the lij;ht (d' municipal law — the narrow — the more technical — the rule of positive law, in which the (ioveiiiment does not stand any holler than than an individual stands. What I have said refers to further claims Ihal 1 shall come lo. Where a wild animal, valnahle to man is so far restrained — hrou^hl uudi'r the cusloily and the control of the proprietor of Die laud — thai it has what has heen calhid the iniiiiius rev very familiar ground of course to every, nuunber (d' the Court. Then wliiil is llie dis|iiile.' Where ai'e we at issue? " Oh ", say iii\ learned friends — and you have had on thai side from my learned friend Sir Iticliard Webster what Courts always have from him on every question. ■■® I I!IU7 llii' Ni'i-y Ih> iiiiuli'. Hi; lias aililnssiMl hiiiisi'll' in ail exliaiislivu inaiiiici'. Ili> saw vi'iy plainly Hull is wiicrt; lliis casi' tiiriis ill Iliis as|ii>('l iipoii il ; Ilia! it was a i'iiiii|iai'alivt'ly iiarniw |iiiiiil. ||i> saw willi |H'iTi>rl aciihtiicss wlial lli(t |i(Miit was: ami you lia\(! Ilic salisi'aclion III' kiiiiwiii}; thai you liavi; In ard (>voi-y word llial (;iui in; usi>l'ully said mi thai siih; orilii^ casiv 'I'licr ' i iiolhiii^' htll. So thai in dniiling with llic arfjmiicnl on Ihal siilc, if \\i'. can deal with il sni't'i'ssrnlly, wo liavi! llie salisl'acli((n ol' knowiii;; that we ,\n'. dcalinj; with llic whole. There is nolliinf; kept liack. They adinil llo; |trinfiple. They admit every illiis- IraliiMi which has lieeii estnhlished hy judicial decisiun ; hiil lliey say it doiis mil a|i|ily to llntsi! seals. To all th(;se other aniuiais, swans, deer? \es. To seals .' .No. Is there any law to the eontrarv .' Oh. no. The (|uestioii never eame up as to fur-seals in the wdild. That is new. Till! alliMiipled application of thai rule to the I'lir-seal is new. There is no decision on that snhjeel. Then you have to resort to the principle on which those decisions depend; and my friend has undertaken — and he siieceodnd so far as unylHuly can succeed, lain sure — to point out wind is the distinclion which would include tin; other animals to which this rule has heen applied, and exclude the seals. This wholitcase turns upon that ilistiiielion, does it not? — upon that precise point, whether there are dilfercnces in the condition of the fur- sc.d under Hie circuinstances of this case, and Hie condition of lliosu oHier animals in respect to which the ri};lit of property is not denied. !.,et us sec in the lirst plaut llieiii in a lii\e, in a dove-cole, if il was l»i},' cnoiiuli; brand lliein : mark Ilieni — we can do any- tliiii},' in the world with them. They are completely within our control. Tliere they thrive the protection wilhoiil wliicli they would cease to t'xisi, oiiK from IIh! forhearanct', the judicious, iiilellif^ent forhearance taught hy experience — tlie Hussians did not know it in the tirsl place. They used to kill these seals indiscriininatcly : hut as early as \\>ave lli*; li'inales; and then liiey introduced this practice of selected killing li) which only the males of a certain age are taken, and only a certain restricted niimher: and that has continued down to the present lime. Those art! tilt; circumstances upon whiidi we say thai this animal is liroiifihl more fully within the reasons which are assigned hy courts of justice for Hit; t^slahlishinenl of this general rule ami the application of it to other animals, than any other animal thai has lieen the suhject of ju- dicial consitleralion. There is not one. Here is an animal t>f a high tlc- grcc of intelligence, an animal lo wiiom this land, or some land which is like it, is alc^oluteh esseislial. The nnimiis rrrprfi-iii/i is not only perfect, hut il is constant anti il is untlistruhed. Senator Morgan. — Mr I'helps, in speaking of st)ine other land just like this to which the seal inav lesorl for their suniint>r haliitat. is there any evidence in this case to show that any trace has heeii found else- where in IJehringSea than on the«3 islantis that the; have i'\ev had such a home? Mr Phelps. — I was ahoiit to remark iiptin that. sir. It is a sugges- tion llial comes verv naliiialK lo mind in coiisiilering this. In all the evliaiistive evidenciMii lliis case, in all the discoveries of the lirilish (ioiii- niissioiiers — and il is prelly safe lo assume thai aiivlliing that can he discovered tlie\ have ftmnti ami a great many things thai cannot lie — there is not llie shadow of a suggestion that a fur-seal in the liehring Sea ever liauleil tail, as the phrase is, ever went ashore on aii\ spot evcepi the I'riliilof Islantis and the C.timmander Islands. I do not speak of the .lapan Ulands. of course. \N'e art; speaking of these waters. There is not a shallow of evidence that they ever diil. W'ludher if the I nileil Stales were to plant hatteries t)ii tin; I'rihilofs open lire upon this herd of seals when t!i\ came there in IIk! spring, tlrivi^ them oil — ahsoliilelv prexeiil their landing th'-re — whether they woiiltl gather lliemselves i,, gelJK.'r aiitl seek fresh lidils and paslures new somifwhere is a tineslion that iiidiody in this wiirld can aiiswi'r. II is purely and only a malti>r ot conjecture. Vt)ii iiiav conjecliire that they wiiuld. I cerlainly caniiol ili>nioiislrale llial they would not. Vou see wlial the process would he if thai was ilone. Supposing the I'liiled Stales, tlesiring to occupy these islands, wishing to gel rid of liit! whole hiisinoss of the seals; they were worlhliiss; they f _- Ktnn — wore only noxious; so llioy plant batteries iind open tiro wlion Mii\ iiiid June conii! iiiid ropi'l lliciii all iuul do nol poniiil one to laud. To bi'giii with, then; would In; no srnwv^ that \oar. Tlie >ouu(j; would all jiorish, Tlicro would 1)0 no yotiU}.' the ucxl year JK'causu uo [iropajialioii could lake placi'. Tluiu wlial would Imh-oihu of tlu'-^i- vopi-ilod auiuiaUrud Uilli-d hut drivu away.' .No man knows. It is known llial tliey iiiusl have sonii' land likt! this, possi'ssiuj; its ([ualilios, its nioishiii;, its cloud, its parti- fadiar Ibrniation — all llial. Thai, is known. It is not I'oi' me to say Ihal thiTi; is nol in Ihc wholo world any oilier such land, that there is none e\eepl Ihc <',ouiuiander and Ihe Kui'ile Islands. Tlie\ have hrou^hl, as I -iliall alhnle !o in another counoeliou, the evidence of some conjecture hy pers(('is more or less (lunlilied to express conjecture — some of then pretty well ipialilied, others less so — to show that il" we did not. care lor these animals; il wk .diowed Ihiwi to he dislushed ; it' wi; iiiterlei'cd with theiM loo much: d' th(>y were reptdled Ihoy wmdd f;o to the Commander Islands, or lhe\ woidd j;o .somewhere. Pei'haps liny woidd. They must f;o somewhere or perish. .Now, then, what is the distinction on which il is said l»y my learned friends that the >(!Hi> arc dill'ercnl, from \dl these oilier aiiinials .' .Vs I hav(,' said, law never has heeii adjudf{cd to this particular animal, under these particular < irciimslanees. It i ; a new (luesliou, as far as Ihe appli- cation is coiieeniiul. The principle is as old as Mraclon, and lilackstone and the Koman law. The applicalion ol'il lo this parlieuiar animal is, not occurred lirfon;. \\'!i;it is the distiuclicm? II llu' seals Hew Ihroiijili Ihe air iu--iead of swimmini;; if these islands were unis a peiiiiisiila and they ran as the deer do. wmild lliat make a dill'erencc' If Ihe liees on the oilier hand, swam when they went abroad after honey, or the deer (h.'w, woiilil the law 1m' chanf;ed ? If the wild swans travelled on fuot and Ihe wild ;;eese, would the law cease lolxiwhal it is now? Wdiild cuiirls of justice say. " \\ e pi'ulcited Ihe bei.s while I hey flew , now that I hey swim I hey have ceased lo he proli'cleij. \\ (• protected Ihe deer while il ran, imw Dial i| lli.< — Ihal is Ihe end ni' il. " \Mi\ \ou cannot consider that seriously. || does nol depend .m those diHerenees. Some id' these animals l!>, ; sum,' of liiein run: soiiie of them swim, some of them stay , and lliev ar^ all uinh r Ihe proli'diiui of the primipie of law. " \\(dl, hut " says my learned Iriend, •• there is not any iw-^f in which Ihe animal has not been <'ontiued. \oiiha\e hers: ym put Ihi'in in a hive. Voii have piffeons; you put lliem in a (love-< '.'■_. Voii have swans; you put them in an em losed pmid. Von have deer : yen put them in a park. " Why? IJecause that iswhal Ihe iieccssilies nf (heir life reipiire. That iswhal is appropriate lotliem. I- there any diflicuily in our enclo^infi these animals after lliey ^el there in .Imie:* Is there Jiiiy diflienlty in the I'liiled Stall's runnin;;' a fence around the winde, shutliii}; them in? Not the slij;litest in the wmld. Itiil \ou see wlial wmild become of the animals. We should have to leave the ;:a!e upeii I'.MO — for llioiii Id \io oiil into llu> scji, or llial is only anolhei' modi* of (Icslt'oxiii^ lliiMii. Is llitM'o any (lil'liciiIlN alioiil pulling (>very one into a (lovt!-colc? It is a nit'i'i! (jnt'slion of expense. Yon ean huild oin- \n^ iiiMU^U lo hold Ihein all; oi- a hive; or, as I said, yon ean hrand Iheni. Now il is very evident thai Ihis sort ol'tlistinclion will nol do. Von ninsl lind soinelhin^ heller than Ihal. If my l(>arned fritMids are ny:,\]{ in saying; that the seals are oidside llu; rid(! and lh(< otlutr animals are williin il, yon miisl lind somelliinj,' belter. " Oh, hnl " says my learned friend, Sir Itii'hard, " did yon ever lind a ease of an applieation of it lo the mi};- raloi-y animals. " There is a dislinetioii — the mijjralory animals. W'lial is a migratory animal, pray .' it is an animal llial '^ucs away and comes hack again, is il not? Is Ihere any other delinitioii to the word. W'hellier he goes once a week or once in three uionths, dv once in six monllis; \Nhelher Im; slays Iwenty-I'onr honi's or slays three months or live monlhs: does thai louch the principle? If Ihere is no ease of a migralory animal, il is hecanse il has not arisen. Have yon gol a cas(! where il would nol ap|)lv lo a migratory animal? Do yon lind in the learned opinions of these judges whom we liave hcen reviewing, anything lo show that they would nol have applied them lo the animal, if it had heen mig- ratory; anything lo show thai the reason of the rule, the principl<>, do(-s not touch the migration animal? When yon say migratory in distinction to an animal that you would say was not migratory, thedilfei'cnci; hetwcen the seal and Ihe Iiee, yon s|)eak only of Ihe absence being periodically and longev continued. Von do nol touch either the certainty of retni'n, lh(^ value vif Ihe iuduslry, Ihe husbandry on whi(di il is founded, Ihe care and protect on that is given — yon do nol louch anytliing that atl'ects the principle. These animals do nol go as far as the cari'icr pigeon goes. Was il ever heard of — " yon may have properly in Ihis lame sort of pigeons that nevi>rgo more tlian a mile or two from home; hnl the cari'ier pigeon that the sea and goes lo another continent and comes back again, you cannot have any properly in him. " Did any judge ever ven- ture upon any such absurdity as thai. Then if Ihe distance does nol make any dilVcrcncc, docs the freciuency of the jouiney make any did'e- reiice. or does the jieriod of lime, so long as Ihe (inimiis rrrcrlt>)i Icarncil i; (o show loi'ii iiii^- iplc, (l()(!S listiiu'lioii Ill'IWCfll rioilically of ruliirii, llie can' alVecls 111." ;i(!OII }{oi'S. me sort ol' lilt' cariior ■oiii('si(aci» • over voii- :; (loos not ' any tlilVo- /(//' reiuaiiis '1100 iiiili'od lion lliat is rlo iaol llial lmI to llioso may j;" or or llio liino ■criain ami Can you iinals to ^o rrii\|; oorta- 1 — do you I had a liivo — lull — ofhoos, Sii', somo newly discovoiod aniinal, ililloieiil from former hoes who made llieir lioiiey in lliat way, who svenl lo (he soulhoru Slates, wlit'io llio loses hloom in llio winter willi the cold wcallior in llio fall, and came hack laden with the material for llicir honey in April lo the home that was neoossary lo llioir oxistonco willi an ahsoliito and unerrin}; eor- laiiity. I want lo know wlicthor llie |)ro|terty that 1 should have in llie ordinary bees in my oilier hives is losl in them? i'lio Trihiinal lion- adjourned for a sliorl lime. The President. — .Mr I'holps wo are ready to hear you. Mr Phelps. — Itliink.Sir, I may dismiss the disliiiclioii that is souglil to ho drawn helwoon the seals and llio oilier animals in ros|tecl of which pro|)Oily is predicated hy the Common l.aw. on the score of seals hoinj; migratory. Now says my loarnod friend tlio i/iiii/iiis rcrrrlt'iiili does not create properly — il only conliniK's it ; il must have anothiM' ori}ion? lie says llio animal must he conlined. \\'lial is contlnemonl .' Is it anything hut the possession, the conlrol, llu! conllno- nieii I. which II k; ha hits of I he animal admit of coiisislonlly with his life and his presei'valion and iisofiiliiess? Is not thai possession? Many allempls have hoon made, as alllawvors know, lo dotiiio llial ti;riii " possiissiop " as applied In pro|K'rt\ .None was i^ver suocossfiil. If there is a loriii thai il i> diflicnil lo deliiie in words, il is the word " possession " as applied lo human property, hecaiiso IIk^ iiatiiie of llic possession, the character of il llio means of il ire jiisl as various as Ihokiiids of properly that are found ill llie world. I'os.-ossioii of real oslate of land? — what is it? — One iiiighl suppose that tliero yon would he ahio lo slate what is possession of land. Win the .iioiiiont you undertake to deline il y(Mi lind that il depends upon the nature oi the land : what is vdiir land ? Is i| n Ikhiso in a oily like this, or is il a wild lot iipiui the lop of llio groi'ii iiioiinlaiiis? Ifolli are real ostat''. jtolli are giiverned hy precisely the same rule of law. When ! say ilial 1 am • in possessioi. ", what does that moan? Why, lo occupy the lot of wild land in the wilderness as I might occupy a house in this city, is inipossihio. W'lial llioii is the pnssession of the world's land? II is such possession as llio property admits of. Slight ads of possession — payment of laves — recording of a survey — going upon the laud somo- liines — koe|iing a supervision. The (|neslion thai is left I o Iho jurv if ^w — 1912 — the lillo lolliiit land in a suit dopends upon possesion is ; whollier lliis I'lainiiinl has, duciiif; liic i'3(|iiisilo period of lime, t^xcicised such aels of o^Mle^shi|) as the propeilv adinillisd of? — vei'y slij^id periiaps i)nl slill enouj;h lo indicate it. Can siuh a soil of possession as that he re{,'anled us Hie possession of a iionse in this city? Wliy certainly not. \N hen yon come to personal property what is possession? Why Hie possession of ii watch, of a diamond of a hank note, id' a coin ^ — that is oiu; Ihinjj, Mie possession of articles which are moveahle which cannot he carri. 1 ahont the person — tliecoidents of.i house; and so yon y;it on from article lo article, i'ossession is sometimes svmltolical. The delivery of akev is the delivery of [tossession. The supervision of an aj^enl may he possession. In sliorl the only dclinition.lhal is to say llie nearcsl approach lo a defini- tion of the term " possession " lliat has ever heeii snccessfnlly );;iveii in any hook thai I ever saw, or in any Court whose jud^incnl 1 ever heard or read, is that it is such occnpalion or control indicaliiif; ownership as the nature of the property admits of, and its usefulness requires. I have spoken (d' possession of the airand lijilit . What Is my posses- sion id'ruiiniii^ water? No interest in proporlv is hetlerdeliiied than thai — I do mil mean navif;ahle waler. hut small streams — the mill streams that approach or run alonj; pas-l m\ properly — tlie mill rights, the waler privili'ges as Ihev arecalled. it is the right louse that water for mecha- nical purposes ; for irrigation, if you please; for Hie use of animals — any purpose for wliicli waler is valuahle. Why, llie waler is iiol mine. I ciiniiol do anvlhiiig with it llial ili>sli'o\s Hie \aiueofil to my iieighhonr up-stream : I caiinol do ainlhing willi it that deslrovs the value of it to my neighltour down-stream. Their rights are an good as mine. .My right to use inusl he consistent with their rights lo ii-'e. I may use il, hul i miisl pass il along and pass il along uiipolliiled — pass il along so Ihal the nseof my neiglijioiir lielow is jusl asgood as mine. So with my ncighhour opposite, lit; has a mill privilege on mu^side; I liavi; oiii> on the oilier. I may have two-lhirds of il : I inav have the paramonnt, he the suhordi- nate i:<^eoi' ollierwise. Il ma\ hedivlded in all forms, lie ma\ or i may have the right to it. for a particular mill, lur a |iarlicular |iiii pose, and no ulhei'. All that is properly . When am I in possession of it? When ami ill possession of Hie stream lliat is rnnning on lo the oieaii not a dro|) of which remains? i am in ptis-^ession of il when I am emploving il in any way that is consistent willi its use, and of whicii the nalnre (d' il ailmils. I am in possession uf il when it is liiiniiig a waler-mill ; i am in possession (d it when it i< watering iiiv animals. .Now these iilii-itralious make it perfecllv apparent Ihal when \ on talk alioul" possession and con- trol ", you are iisiuga coiilrul that is alisolulely indetinite.and that must ho applied tolhenaliireoflhe properly. .M\ learned friends eiled, asan au- thority, from i'(dlock ami Wright's excelleni treatise on I'ossession in theCiiiiimon Law. Iha.e Hie jiassage which tliev cited. Tliev cite this passagi; in some of Hie printed anlhorilies that they liavesnhniitled to lli(> Trihuiial pending the disciissicui. i am reailing now from page 2:!l. — 1!)|3 — i)ii llii' sarnn o powerless hy reason ol' iniMiaturily thai lliey can he taken atjilitasnre willi cerlainty. Thill isropicd. In Ihc liasle of (he prepanilioii ol' llie cnse my (rioiul oiiiitled lo read a little I'liilliei'. An animal once lamed or reelaimed may conlinne in a man's possession al- Ihonf-'li it llyorrnn abroad al ils will, it it is in llie habit of returning' rejfnlarly to a place where it is nndcr liis complete control. Snnh habit is commonly called atiiiiiiis ivrerli'tiili. That is wiiat (he autlior meaiil. It is not Tor (hat (liat I tool\ up tlie liook al lliis nioiiu'iit — it was on Ihe siilijecl ofixissessioii ; and perhaps I shall be excused fcir I'cadiii}; a few words I'l-oin Sii- Kiedcrick Pollock's (Iheii Mr Pollock) adniirahle chapter on this subject, in which, through a niind)er of pajics, hi! iliiislrales, with care and accuracy of lanfjuafje, (he dil'fii'uKy of dcliiiinf; (his word " possession " and Ihe vast range of appli- cadons in which i( is depi'iideni upon (he iialnro of properly. I may be excused for conimenting (hat it will repay any person who desires (o invt^sliffale (his snbjed. lo read Ihis wlioh^ cha|)(er. He says, for ins- (anco, a( pajje (! : — To pri'venl perpetual ei|iiivocalioii, il is necessary caii'l'iilly to ilis(in};iiisli bet- ween physical and legal possession. We here refer to the birmcr. 11 does not suppose any law — I (Ind I am inis(aken in saying (his is Sir l-'rederick Pollock's laiij;naj;e. I( isipioli'd hy him from Sii' K. Perry, who is (ranslaling Savif;ny on pos- sessioTi: and (he lansnafje I am reading is not Sii- {•'ivdei'ick Pollock's, but is ipmled and adopted by him, (hough what I have said (|uilc applies (o whal \w does say in his own words. We heie refer lo the l'orm''r : il doe-; not suppose any law; il existed lid'on' there were laws; il is (lie pos-icssioii of Ihe siilijecl ilsi'lf. w licthei a lliin^' or (he servici' of a man. l.cal possession is allo^'ellier the work ol the law; il is the pos- M's^icjii id' Ihe iif;li( over a lliiii;.' or over (he services of man. To li.ave physical piisM'svinn of a lliii)}.' is ((j have a cerlnin ndalinii \vi(h lliat lliing, ol which, il it please (he iefii-latoi Ihe cxisleiice may liidd (he place of an iiivesli(ive event, for (he purpose of f;iviii); coniineneemeiil (o certain rifibls overlhal (hinn. To have le^al piissesi|j,'jii^'. Miisl il In- raclilimis, liiil a iialiiral ravcrii may sorvi! Torn ilwi'lliii}.', — iiiiisl il l)i> IiiuiiovimIiIi'? IIiiI a coarli, in wliit'ii uno ihviOls in joni- iicyin^', a sliiii, ari> iml iinincivi'alili's? Ilnl this ianil, this liiiililing — what is to i)o ddiii' Ihal il may bo possi'sspd .' is il aclnal ni'i'iipiilinn '.' Is il llio lialiil of piisses- siiiK it? Is il I'ai'ility of imsscssin}; witlioni ii|i|iosiliiiii, and in spilo of o|i|iosili(in itself. Anaiii, litis is Sir I'rcderick Pollocl»s own laii^(ni},'c at \n\iH' Id : — It has coiislaiilly hciMi asUcd : Is possession a mallor of fact or of rit-'hl'-' '•''n- Iham and others have made the want of a plain answer a reproach lo the law. Hut in Irnlh no simph- answer ean lie ^riven lo such a (pieslion, for all its terms are complex and nei'd lo he analysed. ICvery le^'al relation is or may lie an allair liolii of fads and of rijriil : llicre are not two separate and inrommnnicaiile spheri's, the one of fact and II. e other of ri^:ht. Kacis have no imjiorlance for the lawyer unless and until Ihey appear to he, directly or indiicelly, the conditions of luf^al results, of rii;hls which can lie claimed and of duties which ean he enforced. Hi^'hls eannol he eslahlished or enforced unless and until tin' existence of the requisilo facts is recoL'ni/.L'd. 'riioii al |>a^L' \'2 lie says : — it appears, tlie.i. that even at the earliest sta|.'e WO have many thinjrs lo ilistin- (.'nish. Ih- fiifiii possission, or delenlion as il is currently named in continrntal wrilinas, nuiy hi- paraphrased as elfective ocenpation or control. .Now it is evi(ient that exclnsivi' occupation or control in llie seioii did know and intend. Then on |m};i' (i he savs : When the f.icl of idiilml is cnupled with a legal claim and riirlit to exercise it in one's own name a.^ainsl Ihe world at lar.L'e, we have possession in law as well as in fad. .Ml Ihal, Sir, is veiv iiliviuiis. || is Iciieiloiisly slated, Iml il is iiol III il — i!>i;i — iii'w. II is iKit now willi any ol' llial class of lawyers wiio have Ix'on aii'iislnmrd to apply law lo liiinian all'airs. TIumu ai'i> Iwo kinds of law ill lliiswdi'lil, I may lii> purinilliMl lo sa\ : IIiim'c is Hie law that is prairli- ralde ami tliii law thai is imprarticalilc — that is visionary — ^tliat is llieo- icliciil. Tlic one sometimes comes out of Hie elosel ol' Hie man who has ii(!ver IxM.'ii aiiywhei't! else; IIk! oilier always comes to a competent man Iroiii Hie lialiilof the eonslanl appliealion of the principles of law lo the lailininislialion orimman justice, iKiver separating law Ironi facts, always rcinemherin};; that law (lejiends ii|)oii fads — chaiifjes, variations, con- ililions. and circumstances; and that no other rule ciiii he staled, except lial when a priiiciph; is eslahlished, it is in Hie li;;lil of that principle Hial all questions arising muler it are considered. Now what then, slill having!: in mind my friends proposition; which as I have said is sound enough if I niiderstand it rightly — if he did not mean to carry it further than [ tliiuK he did — Hial is that there niiiy he something hesides l\\iuiiii>iii/s vrvvrlPndi — that there must lie a posses- sion or control connected with it, sometimes giving rise lo il, someliines the result of il, — that as I think we shall see presenlly is nol very mate- rial — there imisl he some possession, control, something practical, some- lliing useful, something entitled lo be prole(;led — thai annexes itself. NN ('11, in oilier words, [hanniiiiiis n'vrrlendi is in itself only ,m cviilcmc of possession. Il is nolliinghiil evidence. Il is an evidence or an t'lemenl, as \ou please to call il, in this complex ipiestion of fail and law of what /'v possession. .Iiisl as iiu grasp of l/inl hook is an acl of possession, and an iiiie([iiivocal acl of possession if I take possession of il as mini! with a view to ajipropriale il. Thai is one ('lemeiil; il is nol conclusive. II is a strong piece of evidence when I lake that and say " That il is mine ". So [\\c (iiiiiiiiis rrrirti'/n/i, in the case of an animal, nf this description, is one element — nol enough of it>elf I admit — hut a slroiigclemeiil. when il IS connected with the recognized control and Hie recogiii/.ed nsefuliiess. .Now what is thai? Il is, in the lirsl place, as I have said, a possession Hial the iialnie of Hie properly — Hie nature of the aiiiiiial to come lo this particular case,, ailmils of. II varies wilheverv (lilferiiil animal, il isdilleivnl willi Hie life, with Hie I'igeon, with Hie hei'r, with the Swan, iiiid willi Hie Seal ; hecaiise what is a iisel'iil possession with one is the ileslrnclion of Hut oHkm'. And il varies ia Hie iie\l place, with the reiiiii- sili's of the usefulness of Hie iiulii>tr\, the hiishaiidrs. that makes il valiiahle. .Now in Hie cases cited hv Mr Carter of /»/«'A'v v. //'////v: hnrirs v. I'i)irrll\ mu\ Miirfinin/ — lliosc three cases in respect of deer thai were cited in Hie opening h\ Mr t'.arler. They are quoted very largeh, if not entirely, in the Appendix, and some parts of Hie Iniled Stales' Argiimenl. Now. what look placi- there? Kvervhody, Ihal knows aiiv thing of the laws of l^ngland, knows that the deer, font' iinliir.r. is not specitically il self properly. Von go and Imy a d"er forest in Scotland of 1 ■4 IIMii - 2(l(IH(t iicn-s, siiv. Ilio (iiih viiliu' of which is llio tieer. The hiiid is f^ooit for iiiilhiii},' (>\co|)l Ihf (h'pr. Vmi hii\ il Cor Ihu deer loirsl, ami Ihal is what il is ralh'il. ho sou o\mi any |>arliriilai' (Iclt that is on il? Nol a sIiikIi' out' not one. Hi' is " here lotlax and iione lonioirow ^(1U (•annul sa\ In vnur neiffhhoiir. " These deer wore licre last summer; Ihey were pndtahlv horn on Ihe land; Ihey eonie hark lo me, and yon must not loneh them". The law does not Juslil'y such a claim as thai. When In; lioes on yoiM' neij;hhour's properly , your nei;;lihour has Iho same I'v^Ul as von have. The deer are fi'r.r niiliir:f: they are md personal properly. So far as they fjive value to Ihc land, they f{o with Ihe really ; and, when you hay the soil, you };et IIk; advanta^t!, for what il is worth, or the pri- vilege of Ihc deer frequenting' it and the opportunity lo take them for sport or profit, tiiou^h the prolil is not usually rc^^arded. When \ou come to these cases, you find that dei-r hecome jtroperty nntli'r the same law of Mufiland whicji I have refeirtMl to, under which lhe\ weie n(I0 acres, and in the other 7iHI acres. They could not catch them except hy liuntinf; tl em. or shooting them wilh a lille, if ritles were then in vogue, I do not know iftliey were as early as that ; hulal a lonj; distance the proprietor of that land can no more put his hand upon them than aiiyhody else. They llee from his approach, and it is only hy running them down in an open ioresl thai he could get Imld of them. Then what did make them properly? The uiiiiiu/s rrr/'r/rm/i alone, say my learned friends, wiiuld no! Ad il. I agree to that. II would not have done il in the case of the deer forest in Scotland. Then, what did make them propei'ly? Solely and oidy the fact Ihal the proprietor had eslahlislied a hushandry ; that Ihey were no longer ohjecis of sport, which assumes Ihal they are fcr;i' iia/iinr lo hegiti wilh, — the ohjeel of hunting ami shooting. — no longei' Ihal, hut Ihey were made the hasis of an actual industry ami Imshandiv, hy which their produce was taken hy seleclivi' Killing and sent to the market. Well, hid whal did he do? Says my leaineil friend, he did not shut Ihem up: he did not confine them, lie did what Ihe nature of Ihe animal rendered possihie and what Ihe necessity of the industry icndered desirahle. That is whal he did: and I'orlliwith. under thai same ii.telligent and discriminating law, the animal that was yesterday //vvc ///.//^/v/' is to-day the suhjccl of properly and is personal properly ith all its .ricidents, going to the personal repre- sentative at death, dislrainahle for lent, and Ihe suhjecl of an action if anvhodv interfered wilh it. il is ^()0(t (I tlial is ? Not a ". You ler ; lliov must iiol When lie i> riglil OS |ir()|nMiy. 11(1, wiien ir tiic pri- 1 for spoil \ pi'opciiy iliitli lliev tor rcul: ■ lal»cii l»> iMit. You ind do nol I to pass? Ill eiilireiv from Nvliiil liie raii^'o (1 nol calcli ritlos wiM'o lit at a lonn ii|ion llu'in is onl\ liy r lliiMii. 'iti/i alone, would nol , wliid did ii'ielor iiad lorl, vviiicli ol' liunlin^' lasis of an s laiviMi by lid II.' do? nol conruii! 1(« and wlial hat lu' iliil; nj.; law, the of propertv ioiial repre- an action il — IM17 — Now nntliiii^ ran he plainer, as I i'es|icclt'ully siihmil, lo a mind iiri'iislomeil nol only to deal with lefjal principles, hiil to apph I hem coiislanlK lo llii> vicissitudes and emergencies of human all'airs llian that llie snlislanlial distinction which renders those wild animals properly which were not properly Itefore, and may cease lo he properh al'terwards is llial they arc; taken inio possession in conneclion wilh lh(> perpeliiatioii of Ihe iiiiimiis n'rciiciidi that l>rinj{s them hack to the sp(d taken into such possession as lliey admit of, and such |)ossession as is necessary. There is Ihe priniiple. There is no artilicial dislinclion that depends on their iiK'ans of locomotion or the characler of their covering;, — whether il is i'ur or I'eallier any more than tin; rif;hts of a human hein^ depends upon wlicllier he wears a black coat or a red one — no such distinction as that. II is Ihe operation of the |»rineiple under which Iliey are subjecled lo Ihe control which tliev admit of and are madt; the basis of a \aluable industry. .And in connection with llial, because thai standiiifj; alone would nol be enou};li, that is lo say, would not ap|)ly when the animal was leinporarily ^oiie. that >ve have this constant and cerlain uii'nniis lurrr- Icmli. You put all these lliiii}{s to};elher neither of Ihem would be enouj^h standing alone. I cannot found an industry upon wihl animals upon my property that would make Ihem my pr-operly if Iliey go away according lo their nature and do iiol come back again. .My husbaiulrv is not enough. My allempled industry is not enough, because when Ihe animals are gone lhe\ are gone, iiolwilhstaiiding the «///«//« rcvrr/c/nli. Slaiidiug alone if llial was all, if lhe\ merely came back bv habit and I did iiolhing lo Ihem and made nothing out of them thai woidd not do standing alone. Von must put the two together, ^'ou must combine possession and Ihe milini/t rcrrr/oi'ii, and combine il for a useful purpose, and combine il will) all Ihe cuslodv that is necessary and all Ihe habils of Ihe animal admit of, whatever they are. .Now, savsniy learned friend, you imisl create Ihe '/«/'/////< rcrcrlc/n/i. Wilh great respeel, what does he mean by that? Create \\\ti(iii}iinis rrccr- Iciii/i ill an animal? — create an instinct which, so far as the word mav be applied to an animal below the scale of liiiinanily, is a mental (|iialil\? C.rtiale an aitimiit rcrriiritiH'. Suppose yiui could, how does Ihal ilill'er from Ihe aniintix rcvcr/rti/// which you per|)etuaie? (".an Ihal make a dill'ereuce? It may exist i)el'oic your industry begins, and your iudusliy may be based upon il, but I cannot conceive how it can be created. .Now wo have Ihe spcculalions of a uiinibrr of learned geullenicn gathered logellier i)v Ihe itrilish Commissioners on Ibis (pieslion which I was discussing Ibis morning — what would become of these seals if Ihey were turned away from these islands in which Iliey have had their home ever since Ihe Creator lirst looked upon liis work? .No man lan answer Ihal (pieslion. .\iiy man can specnlale ahoni il with more or less wisdom -- assemble the speculations of several gentlemen, some of whom adinil llie\ have spoken without much thinking and it was all conjecture, that if y.ni cease to care for Ihem, which von do if von allow them to be nils (lishirlicd 01' Iod iiiiicIi iiil<>ri')>rt>(l Nsilli, llicy will pi .inmi) ami iioi ciiiiic buck — llioy will pi lo lln- (loiniiiaiiilui' Islaiiils or lo llic Kiiiiic! Isiaiiils. wlitTc llic olluir seals ^it, oi- pi soincwiM'n! else. As I saiil lliis iiiorniii;;, I do iKil iindi'i'lnki' lo disimto llial, ln-caiisd I cati no more dis|iiili! it than llicy can asscrl il. II is |iiirc conjucliin;, ami il may he line t'or an};lit 1 know. Assume il lo he true as Iheso learned natnialisis oi' some ol' Ihem hclieve. Assume il lo he so. We are and have hecii preserviiif; that iiiiii)ii/i rocprlciiili hy Ihe care thai Ihcy receive there and the |iro- Itsctioii. " What do yon dolo Ihem ", say.s my learned I'rieml the Allorney (ieneral. ' ^'on only kill Ihem ". Only kill Ihem I ho not we prciserve Ihe whole race I'rom e\!erminalion .' The cruisers that snrronnd Ihe Islamis, the apMils and eiiployi's who are on Hie Islands, and the strict rules thai ar(> enlbrced then? in so niiiny |iarticiilars against iheir disliir- baiice apiinsl their injury — they would receive? That their lives are not sate anywhere, llial they ar(> siirronnded hy all sorts of em-mies, human and olherwist;: thai lo preserve all their lives is impossilile. Would mil they he advised thai there is no s|iot in the svorld that we could go into, where Iliey would he as well jireserved, where their reprodnclion would he kepi safe, and where so manv of Ihem would be spared as there? That a pari of their life gO(!s lo the siu'vico of hnmaniU is a proposition thai is true of all created things. There is no place I'oranv maiilo go uiid be safe. There is no life, thai is good for anylhiiig, pari of which does not go lo the public service. There is no animal on Ihe face of Ihe earth thai has mil to conlribiiic, after his measure and according lo his place, to the lid would iKil De rei|uii'emenls of mankind. That is the law of nature. for their henelil to allempi to preserve every one; but they are |)idlected from exlermiualion ; lliev are prolecled from criiellv, from wron;i Hid Ih I' if of that found in Ihe fact that Ihev do come back vear after yeai', for these IDII veai's. since mankind took possession of that Island, ami have, from year to year, all that time taken tin; product of this herd for Iheir use and the use of maiikiiid. What heller i;vidence do you waul than Ihal? They tell ns they could defeat il so easily. They bring these philosophers lo inform us that if we failed in these duties awa\ W(Mild go these animals. Who llien creates Ihe iiniiniii irrrr/i'/nli.' I do not suy that we created il in the lirsl place, before the footsteps of man bad reached those Islands: but who has perpetuated il so that instead of forsaking these Islamis, as tliesi! gentlemen tell us they could be soeasilv induced to do, they have stayed there from Ihal time to this, every one of Ihem? .Now, what have we done to these animals? We have saved them from exterminatioii. Not one of ns is old enough lo have lieen horn at Ihe time when all these seals woubl have disappeared if no proleelion bad mil come ■ Isliiiids. hiiii'iiiii^, (lis|iiili; it • Iriii' lor s Of siniie ircscrvinj; 1 tilt' pio- D AlllllllCN |in!Sorvo Olllltl lilt' (111! si lid eir ilisliir- ' the seals led Irieiid, , liiid lliey •e, is lliore ves lire not ies. liuiiiitii Would iiol lid jio into, )ii would 1)0 •e? riiiil 11 itioii Iliid is uiid Im! sale. OS not ^o to ilh that has liaee, lo the voiild not he ire proteeted wi'onn, and ck year alter llial Island, of this herd eiiee do voii Tliey hrinn duties a\\a\ rti'iidi! 1 do stc|)s of man lal instead of li i»e so casih lis, overs one J saved llieni been born ul iroloclion had — HM!l - hoeii aecorded lolheiii. Tliiil is what wo have done lor llieiii. We have |)ei'|M>liialed, if we iiavi! not erealed, this ///(////»v rcrcrlrndi ; and, on llie slreii^lli ol'il, lliev havo suhniilled tlieinselvi;s. as it is their nature to do and as I'rovidoneo intended Ihoy should, to all the conlrid that they need and a ^reat deal more; and we eoiild do in the way of coiitinemeiil. if it was possihle, if it were not |ire|iosterous and destruetivi', with thesiMiiii- niiils every single tiling thai over was done with any animal wbieh man has made the snhjeet of |in)|ierlv. " Itiit they ure free-swiniminf!; ani- inaU ", savs Siriiliarles lliissell. Who invented thai term, and on what niithorily does it stand ? What does it mean.' Those are ([ueslions that I think it would pu/zle my learned friend lo answer, lie uses that as thoii^di it conslilulod an im|ii'ennahlo position. " I'lee-swimmiiif; I " Is there any animal that swims that is nol a free swimmer? And what is the dif- fereiiee hetween a free ssvimmiiif:; and a free living air d and a freerun- niiif: animal, or a free slayin;; animal.' There are o\>lers, that are the snitjecl of properly, wilil. There are hees; there are deer; there are swans, and IIkmc are pipions. All I'ut the ovslors have .some mode of lueomolion in some element. Then they say, \oii are making };rouso and phoasanls and partrid^'os property. These animals, these seals, are like the pheasants and the };i'oiise Ihal ari> raised upon Kii^lish estates, that is lo sax pndecled there, fed lliero and used. There is an analo;{\ lliat it is impoiianl to observe. Well, let us see. There is a distiiMtioii. Now, you have a elass of ani- mals who have, to a eerlain e\lenl. the a/iiiniis /■rrerteii(//, and they are nol properly. No sufffji'slion can better illuslrale our proposition, which is thai the propertv depends upon the rondilioiis and tin* use. .My learned friend raises pheasants upon his laud. . - his neifihboiirs do. Thev are halehed there; ver\ likely they arc shellereil lo some exIiMit: lliev are proleeled, and lliey j;o away, which is the nature of the animal. You caniiol |)revenl them from doin^ that withoul you change their iialiirc, or coop them in a coop. They f,'o away on somebody else'-; laud, and thai somebody else may shoot them; and all my learned friend }{ets out of haviiif; llieni is the privilofie of shooting them on his land at such liini's as IIk; law allows lliein lo be taken, and in such inannor as the law ivfiiilates, supposing Ihal it does rojiulate it. — b\ which I mean that it does nol permit them to be netted or trapped, and so oil. That is llie \\a\. lint what is the reason; becaiisi! there is no luiinnis rrrrrli'ii'li Ihal is capable of appreluMision, of proof, of heiiiji disliiifiuished .' .Ml his iieif;hbours liavi; pheasanls (jver the I'.ountv in which he lives; thev are alike; son cannot tell them apart. That some of tlieni come back is liij.:,- hly probable; thai many do not come back is ecpially certain, and that inanx pheasants from olliiir estates come lo him is also eipially certain. .Now applyiiiff Ibis principle of laxv which I have boon Iryiiij^ to slate to these animals what is the diflieiilty that you encounter? The lirst thill); is that there is no certainty and no proof uf this animus rei'erlPiuli. The aniitiiis rcrerfrni/i exists in his neifilibour's pheasants lo return I!t-J(l lo him, iiiitl fiis to rt'liirn lo //////, ami IIicn !|mrali> lliiisi' |iIii'iisiimIs iiikI <|iiall) iiiijiist and i>i|nally iinin rissary. 11' his phcasanls ;;i) away ollicrs idini' In him. 11' his nrij^llionr Kills sninc thai wen* halchi'd im his |ii'i>misi's, hi- kills olhi't's llial nmm'i' halrlii'd imi liis niM^hliDiir's pi'i'inisi's. Now li-l mi> slalf a dilTcronl ra«i>. I havt; a I'riiMiil not I'ar I'lnm my rcsidi'iiri' whii has iiiidiM'lakiMi In impnrl inli) AmiM'ira, nvIhtc IIii> liird dni's no! Iii'luii;; and is riitl indi^cnniis. Mn^dish |)hi>asanls. lli< has stMil ahinad and (dilaim'd llii> r^^'s (d'Hn; phcasanls I'rnm Kn^land and im his i-slalo luts cansi'd lln-ni In In' hrcd. lie prnlrrls IIu'mi in llir winlcr willnml whiidi prtili'i'liiiii Ihi'v wunld pi'ri^li in llial rliniali'. Mo I'cfds IIumm and li)iik> al'li'r llirni and nidindy rUc has an\ l']n};lish phi-a^anls. .Noin- id' lhi< iiri^dihoni's havr any — llii' hinl dni'S nol liidoii^ llu-n-. II has an animus trrrrtciii/i of ciiiw^r, heiansr if il did nol ^i> l>atd» il wonlil pi'rish. Now li\ Ihi' law of I'.n^land I should liki> In know if Ihosi' phrasants an* his propi'rlv wlii'U olV his lainl. i-mm'\ om- oI' IIiimm lioin^' ri'<'u;;ni/al>li> and rapahli' (d prool', lirou^hl llirn- li\ liiin as widl as prolocli'd, il' when lln^y arc on iii\ land and wilh my eye- open lo Ihal fad I iindi'i'laki' lo kill one I shiinld liki' lo know li\ llic samn law id' I'ln^land il'lhc suit was Inoii^hl in an I'ln^lish I'.onrI il' I am nol rcsponsihic I'oi'ir.' No lasc ran In- plaiiiiM'. W'liv? Why is llic same phi'asani under the ^auii' law piviprrly on llial man's cstalo and iiol properly on Ihci'slalc id' my Icaiui'd i'rii'nd. Simply hei-ansi* the londilious ari' ihau;:rii, liccause ill llii> one ease he has a wild hinl which, wilhonl po>si|iili|\ ol' idculilieatiou ^oes and eumes as Ihc other hiriU ^o and eiune. Lord Hannen. — As you speak ol'Kii'ilish law: I cannol admil Ihal il' voii i:i\e a fdicif^n hinl its rrecilnin in your conulrv , you would he entilled lo say il is yours wherevei' il Hew, I cannol admil thai Ihal is Ku^lisli law. Take a mai'kcil example ol' Ihal. Those who lirsl inlrodnccd the Himalaya phcasaul and Ihc i;iilden plieasani, they Im'ued lliem out and ;;a\e Ihem Ihcir rrcedom, they are s(d)jccl lo the gi'ncral law appliealile to wild phcasanls. Mr Phelps. — If Ihcy arc liinied out. Lord Hannen. — Ves: if Ihcy an' conliucd, il is a diUcrcnl lliinn. Mr Phelps. — ■ l!ul if Ihc hinl, in tlic cxcn-isc of its own hahils, ;;oes aliroad and reliirns a^aiii. under Ihc eircuntslancos, il has sccmud lo mc — and perhaps I am more I'amiliar with the laws id' N'ermout than those ol' l']ni:laiid, hut we pnil'ess lo I'ollow Hie laws of Knf;land, ami I should have \rry i;reat coulidence Ihal the Coui't which administered there what we sup|iosc to he the law of lin^laiid — tln-y would hold, in the ease of tliisrorci};n bird that went ahroad temporarily and with a constant nniittii^ n'rciimdi to ils owner, thai il was pcrreetly I'eco^ni/.ahle, ami in that lliei'e was a ri^lil of propi I'ly Ihal could he protected ajjainsl wanton des- truclion. Taki'il that the estate is on the honlers of Fiake (".liamplain. 1 — I Mil - \\\\\v\\ iMiii> ii|i lo r.JiiiiMlii, il i>i imhlic waliM' ami wliirli r.aiiiKliitiiA have u ii>;lil, I > of slioolin^ lliost! I)ir(ls in Hit; liivi'iliii^ linn; iiii(lt'\li'iiiiiiiHliii(; llial rari> nl' |iliuasaiilx,is IIiui'imiiin proltMliim? I iiiiisl (ii-i'i'i' III His l,iii'ilslii|i's I'ar lii'tliT kiiowli'il^i' nrilii- laN\ iil' lln^luiiil, hiil I may In' |ii'i'iiiilli'il lo >a\, iiiniri'llii! law ol' Ni'iiiionl llirv u >iilil Im; most cnrliiiiilN. Il iiiav In' nmoii^. lull il smuiIiI most ri.'i'taiiiK 'x; so — \>licii a liinl llii"^ oil' ti'iii|M.'i'aril\ omt lliis |iiil)lii' wain-, il'tlicii! is a rurdoii of lioals to ili'stroy lii:ii ii|i to tin* iioiiil of i-xlri'miiiatioii. Ilii' llii> illus- tralioii. of loiirsc, ilt>|ii;iiiU mi tin- vii'w that is lakrii of Ilia' |iai'lii'ii- lar rasi'. Il i< liiil an illiistratioii, and I do imt rare at all to insist n|ioii it. Tlii'i-i' isa il'll'i'iTiirr. Till' law ol'Kn^laiid in i'cs|i(;rl lo this f;a:in(' has lii'i'oinr I'-lalilislird. It would not ix; now inv(!sti;;aliMl n|ioii lis im^rits as a fiimlamiMital (|iicslioii, It is assiimud \>\ niiirts of jiislin* as ln'in;; tlu> I'stalilislii'd law of Kn^land ami IIii'n would spi'iid no timr in disriissin^ what till- law would In- oi' oii^lil to hr if it was to |ii> iiiaili^ ovct' aiii'w in a iirw lasi'. Itiil I'Vi'ii in that rasr lliry jwoiild |ii'olialil\ cotm; to tlit> samo conclusion in rcs|H'cl to };aino liciii}; tlic siiliicci of (trojicnv that llicy have now liccaiisc it would stand ii|ioii tlic same reasons as it do(!s now and llie same coiiise of reasoning' would coiidiicl tu the saiiii' result, lull lliat is immaterial. \ou have here aiiinials that are t|uite ,v///'y^'///'/'/.v, animids that rel'.irii lieean^e lliey iiiiisl return — animals to whom tliis jiiacc is necessary, who derive no protei'lioii or siisliiiiance or advantaj;e from any body else in llio world, who are made thesnhject of this natu- ral indnstrv and hushandrv of ^'I'cal value, and the i|uestion is not on the rif;hl of |)ro|iert\, as I have said more tliaii once, and I may hi; |iai'dotieil for recurring to that — iml on the rij;lit of |iro|ierty ; on the rifjlil of e\ter- niinalion — not as aj^ainst the mere individual owner, Iml as a<;aiiist the (loveriimcnt to which his heloii;;s. .Now a word or two more and I shall he able lo leave this subject. As a concluding remark on Ibis branch of the case dealing:; with this thus far U|ion |uircly municipal law, is not this the true and sound |iro|iosilion llial inasmuch as there is a jtrinciple of law which includes maiiv animals of ditVerenI varieties iiinler the term propeily ,as tlialpi'iiici|»leof law uiidoiib- leilly does exclude other animals such as we have been alreadv speakinj; of as {laiiie. which n\'\'^\\l be properly, and since here is a new animal, tluil istosav.new in this im|iiiry, and the question is into which class does it fall — docs il fall within the class of those animals in which proporlv is maintained — does it fall within those in which property is iiol maintained? 'riie criterion is to asccrlain what is the principle and whnl are the cir- cumstances that mark the dislinctinn between l!ie two classes of animals. Is not that the just criterion? These seals cannot be put in both catef^ories. They cannot be pul into llie calejjory of the bees and llic deer and swans and pi};eoiis, and what not, andul llie same lime be in llie calegory of the |ili(>as!ints anil the piirlriil^cs luid llio nililiils iiiid Kn^'li'^li sla;;s. 'I'Iicn caiiiiiil lie ill liiilli (if lliDsi'. II is llii> siiiiif laNN llial iiicliiilt's our sfl iil iiiiiinals on Hit' iiik- sitlt; and oxrliidfs lli(> oilier. On \Nliit-li side nl' llie line do lliey Tail? ir il liad ever lieeii delei'niined liy aullioril\ \oii .imld repose n|ioii llial. II has nol. Is there any oilier way than lo see whellirr (lie I'aels ill regard In llie seals assiinilale Ihein lo llie animals llial aie |iro|ierl\ or assiinilale llieni lo llie oilier, il is nol an (■xlensioii of llie law lo ini'liiile llieiii. II is sini|ily an a|i|iliealion ol' the |iriiiei|iles of llie law. III llie rase of Ihe " Malanla " in (i Itohinson's lleporls, wlii'-h as llie r.oiirl are aware are (lie reporls of Ihe derisions ol' thai ^n'eal l'!ii^lisli .Ind^e. Lord Slowell, silling in Adiiiiraliy, lliere are ,i U'w iiNrrnl word«, as il seenw lo iiie. heariii;; ii|ion lliis ijiii'sliiMi o| Ilic ii|ii>imI ion ol' jiriii- riples (d' law upon new eases. On pa^e i,")S, Lord Slowell says : I'liWi'i llie aiillii'i'ily nl llial iliTisimi... he is -.peaUiiij; ol' some Admirally ease; Hie ease ilselC is niil maleiial. Il i>i his lanpiiai^e I (piole this lor : I'ikI'I' III.' aiillmiilv <>! llial iIitImoii. IIu'm. I .iiii vvanaiili il I" linjil ih.ii ji >.. an act wliic'i will all'i'il lln' vrliiclc, llu- (pii'slinii was whelhera ship wa< rorleited hv a cerlain Imsiness llial il had heeii eii^a^ed in. and il had liecii argued thai the ship was nol roi'TeiU'il, only Ihe properly — I am wanaiili'il In Imlil llial il i> an ai I \\lii< li will allril I hi' vliii'li' v\ illii>iil aM\ fi'ar III iiiriuiiii;: lie' ini|iiilalii>ii wliirli i^ -I'liiiliiiio -liaiii;i'l\ i'a>l ii|i"n Ihi^ Cnuit llial il i> ^iiillv <>r iiili'i'|iiilali'>ii Ml llii' law ••\ iialmus. |j Hir (ImimI |ii..|v iijiuii ihrii' 111 a>-iimi' luihiiplis in llirin-ihrs nnvrl. il iiiif;lil .jii>ll> inriir ^inli an ini|iiilaliun : linl 111 apply r>lal)li>lieil |iriini|ili'-i In ncwcasci rannnl -iiri'lv lir mi rniisjilcrril. All law I- iiMilxnlile liilii ^;i iirial iimiii|ili's. Tlic lasi'-; whirli imi\ ari~i' nmlri iHW I "iiiliinalinns orciti'iiiii-l.iiii r>. Irailin^ loan rvlrmlril a|i|ilirali iinliiin;^ mni:' lliaii apply nlil |il ini-iples In iiiw . II. iim-l.'iH r~. II. Ilii ii Inri', Mil' ili'ii-mn llii' Cmirt lia-i In in'iinniiii. r in Iliis i-A-,' v|,i,,il ii| ..n |iiinri|.l.' al.iiii'. I >liniil.l r.-.'l II. 1 siriipli'- in ii'>tinL; il iipnii llir jii^l ami laii i|'|ilii almii ..I lln' anrinit law Thai i- Ihe laii^iiaf:i' ul llial ;:ri'iil .liid;;e when he was soiit;hl In he alarnied liy llii' idea llial. in dealing wilh a novel ipieslioii. he wa> ex- tending llii' law . Il i< Ihe lin>ine-^s ul' Coin Is ol' .Instiee to inl'orin Iheiii- -iKi'r. Ill the piimipli'S and In extend Ihiise lo new eases where it is lle- ies«ar\ . The cave nl llie " Adoili- i- amitlier la-.!' ul' Ihe ^allie .lmlj;e. who was then Sir W illiani Snill. ,iml piis>ilily he wa> .il Ilir liim' nl' lli<> hi>l rilaliiiii. Tliio i« ill \ iihinie ','> ul <'.. liohinson's ItepurU: and perhaps I lii« iliii-iuii i- mure diiei'tly apprupriale un Ihe point I wa~ disrii^^-in;: this m — I>l-J.l — iiiciriiin;;, wIiito IIii' liiw of iialion-* is lo he cullfclcil in ;i niso wlioro il is mil i>s|iili|islic(l. ■ ''.'\u< !•< aiMsc ". saxs hi', '• in which I liavc laki'ii xiriic shi)ii tiiiic In ih'lihi'ralp, hiiiiL: im\villiii.L' hi |)ii"is wilh .■my tiiinahlv hiiill U|hiii Ihc jiisl ri^'hls nl war. ninsi 111' alliiwcil til ii|ii'i'ali' will) snnii' liai'iKhi|i mi nciilral cnniiiii'ici' anil hcciiisi' il i- a 1 la~s 111' casi's nil \\ liicli Ihc ^rical Inlhiciirc in Ihc ilccisimi nl'inli i ,i iliniial a> well as niiiiilcipal li'iliunals; Ihal is In say, Ihc apjilii'all.in nl'llic piinciplc nl ,i rule which has liicn ailnplcil in cci'tain liiiincr cases. In ^nvciii nllni- nl a siiiiilar I'liai.icli r a- \il iMIilclcl niilieil. 'I'lial is niilliiiKin-. Then ri'niii Itiiwycr's llcadiiifis, |iai;i' HH, is cijcil Ilii- line. .\lialnj;y 1^ llle inslriinielll nl Ihc prn^l<'>- anil ile\elnplnen| nl Ihe law , \iiw in (li'lci'ininin^ litis (|iicsliiiii IImm'i> is iiinilhcr I'linsiiicraliun wliidi si'i'ins III nil' III III' allii;;cllii'i' ('uni'lnsivi! in inlililiun In .ill lliri I havi^ I'l'l'i'i'i'i'il III as |iiiinlin;; unl wliidi cliiss ul' animals Ihc scii nnilcr Ilii; citt'nm'^lam'i's |)(«|(iii};s (ii. 'I'licrc is a naMin Inr all iiili'lli;j:"nl law. II is t'linmlcd it|i(in Ihc ncco-ilics nl' hniiian all.iirs ('s|M>cii||\ in ic^iard III |iro|i('rly. .Now, wilh ii'j;aril In llii- l'',n;;li-li ;;anic is Ihcrc aii\ iicccs- sily al ail .' I have shown Ihal il is im|i lini'ii, anil II. re is nn mh'I nl' ni'ce~-il\ Inr Ihe pr. -ci'valinn nf Ihe animal n" Inr mai.in^; him iisclnl. There i> im e\l"i ininalimi nl' IIm; race 111' phea- :inls jinin^ In laki' place il' --iich is nnl I he law . and. Iherernrt^ lllii^e wise ciinsjdcl'alinns dl' Ihi'inmniiill law nri'll^land in I'e-pecl In;(ani0 have heeii Iniind. and ha\e lieen Innnil li^hl. Ilnw i> il uilh Ihe seaU.' 11' we have mil Ihis riulil nl' prnperU Ihis animal peri^ln- nil Ihe earlli There is Ihe ellil nrllilll. Il is no i|se In talk aliniil Ire.ilies Ihal we ina\ make. Thai i'- a mailer nnl il' ri::lil, imr nl lav\. IT we have iii prn- pcrlv in Ihis indiilrv. Ihi tienl. Ilii- laHiness. ihis inlere-l dl il wii.il Villi will — Ihal we are in piis>c>-inii nl. Ilicii Ihe ailiiiial ^nlie, as every iillier inslaiice nlhis species, snhs|,inlially speaking. t« «"•"'• !^<»nie -m.dl remnani nil niie nl' llinso sinilhern islands has lieen |iri'served .it ^ I. lie da lu — liy wlial? I shall entiie lo Ihal in aiinlli)!!- • oiinorjion. livllie iii^lilnliiiii III' llii'> verv claiin and Ihe maiiilenaii' ' ul' i ; liiil wilh ihal in- 1021 sipnitinanl exreplion IIkiv arc iill jiono from the I'iicc of llio cjirlli. As poinliMl oiil liy Mr r,iirlt>i' in his ()|M>iiiii^ llu; oiilx mkmiis l)y wliicli tlioy I'liii ItL' preserved for the use olAmerieii, for the use of aii\ eouiilry, for the us(! ofaiiyhody, Iheonly means Ity whitdi lliey (tan \h' preserved is l)y sustaining the ri;;lil. which \m< elaini. I lay aside all (his idea of niakinj; rej^nlalions. the nller ineffiracy of wliieh has hcen the mosi siiein^ on which side oflhe line (hese animals fall? Where does that loii- sideralion come in. When il is made apparent that not onlv llicir useful ness to mankind hut their existence on the earth depends up(U> lh(> ri;;lil of the nation in possession of them administering; them to preserve lliem. a> lliev have attempted lo prescive them, and as tlie\ have preserM'd them — tliev ;ind tlu'ir predecessors — for HIM \ears. If there is anv doidtt npiui il. even upon' the plain princi|)les of uninicipal law — I have not vel touched Ihe liirjicr lield of iulernalional law as applicahli' to this propei'lx, hul I hope to deal willi it hereafter — il (here is anv (pu'stiiui at .ill — and I may lie pcrmillcd to say lliere is not — when voii c(niie lo wcijih in the liidauce the coiisideralioiis, llie reasons oil which the liiw i-; founded selllcs the ipicslioii. Sir, suppose that the I'rovince of Alaska was a couuti\ hv ilsidf, pool' and harreii. and to a certain extent desolate, as it i«. Suppose instead of hi'lui; a province of a i^ieal nation, which does not need it, it was a province and a coiiiilrv hv ilself. II would he lai'j.:er llieii lluiii maiiv of the iiidepi'iideiit states and nations iii this world: ami suppose, what is alnuxl Iriie. if il is not quite irue - it i- not iiecosarv to stretch the supposition much - llii> -^cal iiidiisti'v i« all llial lliev have ^ot, all the provision of the Almi^htv made lor Hie exisleiice of tlio>e inhiihilaiit>. all Hie food, all Mil' laimeul. all the comiiu'i'i'e. all the hu>iness. all Ihe means to lueveiit their staiviiii; to death or hecoiiiiii" the pauiier ward lie charitalile coiiiih V thai uiiulil lal ke care i paiip. •r llii'iii Would the la he anv ditfereni that applied to this case then tlian il is when applied to llw of Hie t nited Stale: Would II le liritlcili leofl iw vai'v 111 tlial J — \'m:\ — (•use? (loiild any iiik'lliftciil iiiiiii — iiol lo say jurist — say, " why, as they liavo iiolliiii^ else, llicy own those; itiil it' they had ^old and silver ami aliiiiulaiil revenue tliey would not uwn llieni ". Tlial in'iii^'s us face lo face with the i|ueslion whether there is or is not any inteiii^'cnl law, any eivili/.ed law, aiiy ehrisliun law, whether there is iir is not a I'onsidcM'ation of hnnianily and necessity to preserve the liDinilies ol nature that does come in and is worthy of eonsideraliou, whether coiiclusivi" or not in deterniiiiin;; tht; (inostion. it'll were open to douhl. rii(!re is where the force of this eonsideraliou comes in, in my liumlilc judf^ment. Now, then. [H'cssed by the diflicnlly which ni\ friends who have pre- pared this case oil llu' part of (ireat Hrilaiu fell Iheniselves emiiari'assed l)\. Ilicy liiive made an etl'ort lo hreak in, in some small de^M'i>e and to u small extent, upon llie fads on wliitdi we hase this i'if;ht of possession. 'I'licy say thai all the seals do not come buck to the I'riliilof Islands. The f;reiil hulk of Ihem do; hut there arc some few llial travel ovei- to the (iiuimandcr' Islands. I'efore proccediuf; to demoustrale, as I can out of this evidence, lluil there is not one woi'd of trulli in llial suf;f;(!sli(Ui, nor one word of evi- dence to support it that does siot perish when yon expose it to the lif;hl — liefore prec.jedin^ lo that I should like to incpiire what ditVerence it would make if it w,is true .' Suppo>e we were to concede thai while the bulk ol this army comes hack with an cxlraordinarv c(>rlaiul\ and pei'tin;icit\ , ycl a few indi\idnal> siatlcr aw;i\ anil wander across the sea and may hi'in^ up on llic r.ommauilcr Islands, the only other places besides .la|)an where any other seals have been known to exist. How far does that atlect the case? How far does it chauj;e the application of the rule of law .' I ha\i' >aid thai our inlcre>l did no! depend upon the >pecili(; owuershij) of everv st'al, whclhiM'eaih nuc eauie hack. Il depends upon lh(( general inh.-resl in the ;;real herd and iiMliislr\ llial is founded upon il. .Now , if il were conceded that some h'w of these seals did wander away, llca\cii Miilv knows why and what for, and lind their way to the Com- mander Islands, is thiil u disliuilioii which prevents the application of Hie f;eneral principles of law .' \Vli\ the sliilemeiil ol' that ipicslioii canii's till' answer lo il. II is a (picslion that doe> nol survive a dislincl >lal(!- mcnl. Why Ihen shall I lake the pains, willi the permission of the Tri- biinal, to show that there is no foiindalioii for il .' Ilecanse we believe that il is heller for the (iovernment of the I nilcd Stales to be liglil than it is to succeed ; because I shall not consent that the dispute of any as>cr- tion thai lia> b-en deJiberalcK made by the Iniled Stales in this ense upon au\ III these (picstions shall turn out lo be one in which Hie (iovern- ment was wrong. This case has not been only iblv pre|iarcd by uiv friend who has had that subject in (barge. — lien ral Foster; ilhas in mv judgment been conseieulionsly prepared. There is no assertion that has been maile in tlii- ease, v hetliei' iinporlaiil or uiiiuiporlant , that we do not <'laim completely to liiive sustained. There is no altcmpled contia- mifi iliclioii iil'iiiiv assertion of I'licl llial we do iiol claim is cnmiilclch ovor- tiii()\Mi l>\ tli(' uvidoiico; ami IhtTorDic I |)i'()|iosi' lo look into lliis(!vi(lt>ii('i>, (roin which hits iind si riips hiivn hoi^n njlbrnid to here iind thci'c, as tmi- (liiif: III show somi iiiiiiin^diiig of' these seals under Ihe idoii Ihal per- lia|is 11' Ihal were made oiil the force of the case.arisinj; from their altach- metit, Iheir a|i|iiirleii{iii<'e to Ihi- land, would lie lo some small evteul wcakeiKid. And |ierlia|>- I iiiav lia\e time for Ihe few moments liefore the aiijoiirnmenl to illu>irat(- on lh(> map one or' two thin^'^. rhe;e, Sir, are Hie I'riliilof Ulaiids indicalinf- on map , as you have perceived: and there are the (.nmmaiider Islands iiidicalin^i, Hill) miles away. Ileie is llie route of llie Alaskan seals i indicatiiigi ^oiii}; fi'oin the isliinds in the fall. iIhsmi Ihroiiuli the Aleutian passes • iudicaliiiu;!, across here where the lilue liui! indicates lindicaliii};/, until they conu; o|iposile lo San l-Vancisco. I do mil know Ihal there is any evidence Ihal they are much lower down. I do iiul think Ihey ai'c. Tliey j;o down indi- cating : llien retnin ;;i'adiiall\ alon;: in Hie spring, following' the lilue line indicalin;; aipect lo which I shall read somethin;.; from Mim<' of these natnrali^ls; the re^^ular !iii};ration roiiti^ of Ihese animals e\ci plin;; only Ihal Ihe old hulls, as Ihey are called, do not make Ilii- cii'cnil. Tlir\ remain. I lielic\e, up north as far as Sitka. The lilack line imlicali's Ihe roiile ol these old hulls indicalin^ on mapi, 'Ihey are seldom found, as llie evidi-nce is. miuIIi of Sitka. I'ut Ihei'e is the route of the nlhers indicating . I'ldii! the ('.omniHuder IslamU. Iliere is what is >liown by the e\i- denci-. and I li>'lie\e IJn'ie i- no di^piili' alioni it - llie ltriti>h I'.ommis- sionei- adiiiil thai ; I am ^i>in^ lo read wlial thev sav alioiil it li\ and live — there is the mi;:ralioii roiile n\' Ihe Irom liie (lommaiider Islands indicaliut; on map ; and llnv riliiiii. I >uppo>e. in Ihe sanu' ;;eiiei'al courc fi'om the geographical consti-ni lion. Ili.it tin le is nol an opporlnnity, proliahly : liul at au\ rah'. Iliere is Iheir niij^ralion route indicating. \\ I' will mil -pei'idalc alioilt it. .Nov., whal i» llii' suf;neslion — am! it is uothinj; more llian a snir- ^'.eslion. as we shall see when wi- come lo analv/e this evidence? II is thai s(Mne of these seals i^cl olVout iif Ihejr mi^ralorv route, al some tiiiie or olher, and liml llirir way acro-^ here indicalin^ on map , for the purpose of ^ellin^ inived up willi am>llier iind. What for, upon what motive, upon what imluieuient Ihal is applicahle lo ^m h animals, or to any animals, iiohody eseii su^^esK. Now. here is shown upon llic map, imlicali'd iiclwec'i those red lines there (imlicaliiir; whal i- called Ihe Norlli I'iiritic dri'l cnrrenl. Thai sets over from Mie .lapaii coa«l down her. imlicaliii;;!. II is described li\ some witnesses, wliose le«limon\ I shall lefi r to. as a warmer cur- rent, full of food tish, which naturalU attracts Ihe seal, liolh from ils teni- peratnre and especially from il« food .\nd \ou ce when lliev i oim K - I '.127 — down fill" cnoii^li lo slrilu; lliis nirriMil indiciilinni — it is iiol very far below Iho Alciiliiiii Isliinds lliat IIki ciiin'nl |iassfs — wlinii lliey coiiit) down lli(M'r. Ilit'v ^d with llic I'lifi'i'id ol' food, and on around <\urv (indi- caliiif; iiiilil Mil! ncrcssilics ol' nalni'c rcqiiiri' thcni lo }|)arl I'l'oni. nor anv animals of lids class — in addition to that tliey sti'iki' into till' Norlli I'licilic drill cnrrcnl, whiili is llie place for their food and llic |ilac(! which at that time of IIk^ year, Ihe winter, ^ives them the nlilllrlc^^ which they come awav IVom here lindicatinji! lo ohtain, on accoiinl of Ihe cold and Ihe ice that siiri'omids these islands in Ihe winter. The President. — - i»oes that di-ifl current run all the year round, or only in cerlain sea-ions'.' Senator Morgan. — It I'uns all Ihe \ear, Mr Phelps. — I IhinK. Sir, it runs all Ihe year round. I will look into that: hut I thiidv it runs all Ihe year round. Senator Morgan. — II is like Ihe (inlf Stream in the .Mlaulic (tcean. Mr Carter. - It is iis conslaul as lln- (iuif Siream in Ihe .Mlaidie. Mr Phelps. — ^es: I su|i|iose it i-,. .Now Iheu. the sun^esliou is that niidei' those circumstances, al some tinu!, — and I helieve their evidenci-, so far as yon nuiy di}ruil'y il with the name of evidence tends lo show, that il is in the fall when they come away from heri' (indii'atiufi' — smue of lliest; seals find their awav over here iudicaliiii; , where thev would ('Uiouuler the mij;raliou of the (loni- mander siaU soidli. It is iiol contiMulelauds. One would sujipose it is ahoul the same lime. W'hiilher the I'vidi'nce stales I do not reuu'ud)er. Hut under those circumstances, alter this mii;raliou has lienun in the fall, the supj^estion is that tiiev tind their wav over into this sjiace here indicaliuf; , so thai thev can I'c seen to sonu! e\l(Mit lo have heen uiiuj;led with the seals on the ('.ommai\der Islands. The President. — I'erhaiis the eommiuiilin;; would conu' from Ihe other »ide, IVoui the C.ommauder Island* seals coming into this cuireiit. Mr Phelps. — Ves : I was alioul to sas that upon any evidence or pretence id' e\ idence. it mii;lit iis Weil come IVom the ('.(uumander seals as from ll,e«e. That i- lefj allo,u:elher in di>-|iide, .Vow, Ihat i^ the Iheorv Senator Morgan. If vou will allow me |o impure, does mil Iheevi- deiiee in ||ii> case -how Ihat Ihis ^reat ocean current of .vain water thai vou sj>i'ak of divides out Jo |||e >oulhwe-t id' the .\|ei;;i;iii jjroup, one hrauch of it ,uoin^ up into Ihe llehrinfi Sea, ami kee liuf,' Ihat -ea open, and Ihe oilier passing;' around upon the coast of Itritish Colundiia and the liiiled Slates? Mr Phelps — That siii;>;estiou, Sir, is true, ami the maps show it: hul Ihe evidence ill lhisca>e does nel show il. Therefore I desire that — 1928 — it should 111)1 1)0 pill down upon iliis innp, bociiiiso it is not proved by llie uviiieiii'i*. Hill il is laid down on llie public iniips, and I buve no doubl Hull llio division of tlif rurrcnl Ibal yuu srg^esl is true. Senator Morgan. — .\re not the public maps evidence? Mr Phelps. — I do no! Know but lliey are. Lord Hannen. — The whole course of the nioveuieuls of Hie occau have been laid down upon charts, and it would be very easy to tind one which would show llie wiiole course. Mr Phelps. — There is an atta>i thai we will brinj; into court thai does show it. Senator Morgan. — if you will allow me to sup};esl in that connec- tion, I tliiniv it is staled in Ibis evidence, perhaps without any dissent, llial tlie lali'sl arrivals al Ihe I'ribilol' Islands arc the |)U|) seals. Mr Phelps. - Ves. Senator Morgan. — is not that accounted for by the I'act thai bavin}; very iiiipcrrecl or sliorl coals of hair or fui', Iliey naturally lake a longer route lo the south, in order to };et to a warmer climate, and therefore Ihey caiinol arrive at the seal islands at the same lime that llie old males. Hie holluscliicMe, or llic females woiihl : (hat lhe\ have a longer delour necc>->.;ir'il\ hccimsc of (lie (Iciiiands of their nature.' Mr Phelps. — li is a \cr\ ualural .md probable conjecture. I am not aware thai there is an\ evidence in tin' case llial eslablishes il. Il would .-iceni natural (hat that should be Ihe case, and I do iiol know (bat (here is ary oilier reason given iu Hie evidence wli\ Ibis |)orliiin of Ihe herd are lad r iu arri\iiig. Al (he -"ame (ime, I liavt; no righ( lo -a\ dial Hie evi- (b'lice proNi's Hia(. And now, haviiii; indicaleil wli;i( (he sugge>;|ioii is(lia( is lo beencoiin- (ered before al ill alluding lo any of (he cvideiiee or theories (ba( an; said (o Mippor( il. I wdl. wjHi Hie permission of Ihe Tribunal, defer 'iilering iipiiii HimI i'\idence al Ibis late ninnieiil iiiilil nesl Tiiesda\. The Tribuiialllieii adjourned uiil:rrues,ia\, .lime -JT, l.sil.'). al 1 1. .'in o'clock A, M. ,£i;4**'' FOinV-riFTII DAY. JINK 27'", I «!»3 Mr Phelps. — On l-Vidiiy lust, Sir, as llii' Triltiiniil will ri'iiieinhor, in ciiiciin^' ii|ii)n litis asscrlidii in r(!S|ii!rl Id lUv ('onuninjilinf; ul" llii'so two iit'i'ds of s(siis, i)oli)nj{iii}; rcs|)fcliv('l\ lo the I'riliilnf and Coniniandcr Islands, I had lio^'on lo jioini ont on liii> nia|i the i-onlcs whirli lhc\ I'dI- loNNi-d : and. in nrdcr Ilia! what I am aliunt Id sa\ may Im> inlidli^ihle, |iiTha|js ym will pi iniil mo, lor a monn-nl, Id refer a<;ain In Ihe niii|i. 7V//S disl:ini'i> poinlin;; it onl on Ihi; ma|i), as Hie 'rrihnna! nnIII lomemlier, is aliDnl H(l(l miles; M/.v i^ Iho ronle oflho seals IVuin llie {'rihilol' Islands, iind ////'/v Irom llie I'.ommandei' Islands: and ///'/v inlei'icpls lln; (Inri'ent or ilnir Siream Ihal scis aci'oss in ////v direelioii. Thai was referred to heft ire. Now, wlial is meant hv this term " interminf^linj,'".' If it ni<'uns only (he easnal iiiterniiii^lin}^ of tlii'se seals in llie open sea losoinc small e\|eiil, llieii it is manil'estiv DfiiDsorl "f importance lotheeiise. If the seals, on lea\in^ llie I'lihilol Island', make their eireiiit and return to the I'riliiliir Islands afiain, it is, of eoinse. ullerlv iminalerial whether a lew <<^ lliem do or do mil in lliiil iiilrr\al pass far enough lolhe westward, or a tew of the r.ommander seals pass far enoiifjh Id the ea>lward so that ilh'v aie liroii};lil toiicther. hecaiiM' they separalt' aj;ain. Nciw, luiw prepost(>i'Diis it is, I miiN -ay in passing, iiecaiise no motive lifthe WDi'il is a|ipiieidile In these aiiiiiials . - no pn-silile iinlneemeiil eiui exist wh\ tliev should tdi'ii aliniil and p» apiinsi the drill eiii'reiit forsakin;; their ordinarv ininratDrv rniile, f;(p a Imij,' distance lo the west or ^'o ;i hiiij; distance lo the ea-l fur Ihc mere pleasure [of eiieonnteriii': ill Hie water some siall'M'ed seals IVnin the Dllier herd, and then have Id iiiaKe their wa\ hack ai.Min, - thai is pcpnslerons; Iml i| is mti wurlli wliile III sliip Id I'efiile il liecnise il is iif rro conseinience. If on II Hier hand il is nii'anl lo he asserted thai some pari or any pari td' the I'rihilof Island seals not only fjo onl ini,) Hie westi'rn se,i w here lhe\ encountered spei-imens from the otliei' si(l(>, |iut j^o |o HieC.Dmman- der Islands and join Ihemselves to niiolher herd, hieed on Hie Comman- der Islands and for-ake Ihc Prihiinf - ajlhon-h Ihal is not \er\ material Id our casr if il appiMied Ihal any pDili.pii of ||ie CDUimanders forsake the li.rd which the\ lieloufi Id. and lamr ai'ross and joined lliemsid\es Id ||ii> I'rihiluf Islaml -eals, lh>'ii il would he a fact Hu; malerialih of wliich would of course depend upon its freipiencv nud ilscxleiil There is oim' coiisideralioH whitdi is perfeellv eDiichisive af;ain.«l lliiit — !!):)() — III mv ii'iml. Iii'lor.' \iiii cnlcr ii|iiiii any cviili'in'o wlmlcvoi', excel)! Ilin eviilfiicc iillorilcd h\ llic iiiii|i. If il were lrii. , — if il is Inie lo-day, tliiil lliosc seals iiileiiniiijile lo any appri-iialile exieni — Ihe animals from llie l\N(i Ileitis — why then llieic iseveiy reason lo sii|i|Mise llial lliey have aiwiiys (hine sit. There is no reason why thai shonld occur now any more than always, ir il hail always occnrreil Ihese Iwo species would Ion;; af^o have Itecn iMitireiy nndistin^riiishahle. The cross-hreedin^' thai would have laknn place ir Ihe seals wi>iit indilVerenlly lo any exieni al all lo Ihe Islands llial helonficd lo olher herds would lonj; aijo have elVaced the did'ereiice which il is slill conceded exisis lielween these seals. They would he no longer dislin^uishahle. Il would not he true as I shall have occasion lo show from Ihe evidence of these Knrricrs — every siiifjle luie of them on holh side-; of Ihe case — tliat there is a marked and plain ilitVerenee liel- ween lliese >kins which eiiahles an expert lo dislin^;iiisli them from each other. It could not he any longer true if for cenlnries — or numherless centuries — we do not know how hui^' iiilerhroedin^ had heen taking place lielween these seals. .Now lit IIS look for a uiiiiiieiit at this ipicstion i ^ it slood upon the le>limiin\ up to the liiiii' of Ihe tiling of Ihe Itristish Couuter Case. The .\nii'ricau ('.omiui^sionei's xpeak of this, iinda^l xliall not read very much I may he excused for reading; a few words from what Iliey say al paj;e IVl'.i of the t'nited Stales' Case. il. Till' liii-'-ral^ ol iIm' I'i iliJloT I>I^iiiiIs iIi~i' iil' Ilic ('.uiiiiiiaii- iliT anil Kiiiilc l^hiiiits al ,in\ liiiii' nl' Ilie ycai'. Ill MiMiiMir Ilic two liciils rciiiniii cnlii't'lv ili^linil, si'par.ilril liv a wain- iiilciAal nf -I'MTal liiiinlii'ii iiiiirs; ami in llli'il' wIllIlT llli,L:l'allull> lllixc IVnlll lllr ri'llljlnl KlalliU lolloW llli' NllirrilMII I'nasl ilia >MiiiliiM~li'il,v ilii'crlloii. wliilc lliix,!' I'l'niii III!' ruiiiinanili'r anil Knillc Islamls liilli'W-. III!' Silicriaii anil Japan luasts in a "onlliwc-li riv I'.iicrlinn. Ilic Iwn licnls licini' -iparalcil in winlcr liy a w.ilci- inliMval nl ■.I'vciai ilnnisaiiil inili's. Tlii< I'l'^'illai il V ill llii' in<>\ cini'iils nl' Ihe ilillcn'til liiiils is in ulii'ilii'iirc lu Ilic well Ixiii'W'li law llial iiii'iViil'inj iinimiil< fnlliiir tl./nulr rniilrs in iiiiiiriilinii nilil rrliini i/rnr n/lfr iji-iir Iil l/ir siiiii" iiliii'fs In lif-''il. Wi'ic il mil I'nr Itlis law llii'ic WiMilil lie no sncti Itiiii;.' as slaliililv nT -iiriics. Inr inlrrlirci'iliiij.' niul r\i-lciiii' imili'i ilivnsc |i|ivsiii- f;rapliic ciiiiililinns wmilil ilc-lmy all »|ii'cili.' iharaili'i-. riic pclaj;i' 111' Ihc Priliilnr rnr-si;als ililli'i- -n iiMiKcill\ limii lii.il n| lii.' Cnni liiaiiili'i' l-l. Mills rni-si'ils iliat Ilic Iwn aic iiailil) ill'-linvni^ln'il li\ i'\|iri'|s, ami have vci'V ililli'i'cnl Naliiis. iln' ruiini'i' cniniiiamliii;; iniiili lii;:lici' prices lliaii Hie lald'l- al llii' ir^'iiliil- l.iiiiiiuii -ales. .Now Ih' Mleii - repiirl. in the lir-t voliiiiie m' the Appendix lo the Case al paiic 'iHli, is III Ihr same elVei I. Il is a \i'\\ njij,' imd iuleiesliii^' aili- de |i\ |ir \lleii. lie sa\> : Till' r.iiiiiiiiaiiili'i Ivl.inil-. hi'i'il is I'viilrnllv ilislimi ami si'|iai'alc riniii lln' I' hit' Islamls tin il ll- IIm' riiiiiiiiaiiili'i ^i'>'„;> III' islamls on II Wr^lil'l -nil' ol'llrhriiiu lir roasl. mil II- liiii' ol iiiii.'1'ali'iii i< \M'sIu,im| .iml -nulliw.inl ajuM,:; lln' .\sia- -iil'l'"-'' Itial Ihe Iwo hi'i'ils III 'iiiil llial Ilic ^allll' animal ina\ al one liiiii' III' a iiii'inlii'r III oiii> lii'i'il ami al aiiolticr liiiic iil' IIh' ottici'. iiiliaiv li wli.il I- Kiiuwti III' (III' hahil- n[ mi^'raliir.' .iiiiiiials in i:cii.'ral. Hi'siilr- wliilc lli — n»:ii — Iwii licrcis arc cla-isilii'cl liy iialiii'.'ilists ." ''i'|iiMf;iii}.' Id till' slia|> ii'^miiIs Imtli idjiii- :iml li'Xhiic, sul'licii'nl m>l only In enalilc i'\|icils in llu; I'm' liaile I.' lei-dKni/.c Id which hcnl a f:ivcn skin hclDnjfs, jmi Millicicnl Ic alVccI iN CDnuncirial value. As yi'l, c\|icrl naluialisls have liccn unalile In maki; a diiucl ciini|iaiisiiii <>! Ilin IWD animals, Inil llni clillurcnci's iillc;;c(l liy I'ui'rit'is. as dislinguisliinj; the icpii'- sentalives of the two herds, pDlnl to llndr licinjr sc|iaraldi! as siilis|iecies, in dIIii'i- wnrils, as well marked f.'c(i;;riiphic phases, ami thus in'cessaiijy disiinel in hahitiit and mi^'ialiDii. Then \\(; ^o iiili) coiisidorablit evidence wliirli I shall iiol lecl jiislilied ill deliiiiiiii^' Hie Trihiiiiiil to rciid ill this inoiiienl : luil \Ne li;i\e e\:iiiiined six Kiilish t'lirfiers in London, twelve Ainei'ican scieiilisis aside IVoiii llie jrenlleniiiii I'roni whom I read just now, and oii(> wilness, Mr .Moi'};aii, who was a sii|ieriidendeiil on (he Islands I'oi- a lon^; lime, and a ship niaslei' in Ihose I'e^'ions IVir a very loiif; lime. The evidence will he Iniiinl on |ia({(>s '.12 lo ',)iS of the Appendix to the Amei'icaii Ar^iiineiil in which Hie leslimony is I'ollaled. These witnesses slale Hk; dilVereiice helween Hie t'lirs — the animals and IIm; skin : and Ihey shile llie diU'erences in the pric(>. and llicv all slale llial anyhodv aecpiainled with Hie Iradi' can I'ea- dily and easilv dislin^nish Iheni. Now cine I'liflher I'ilalion. and we shall see how Ihe case stood up lo the lime of Ihe I'.onnler Case, and llial is lo see what Hie Itrilish C.onimis- sionei's have said alioiil it. I shall iKd h(> iindeisloml, I Iriisl, lei me sav once jdi' all as I'td'ei'i'iii}; to Ihe Itrilish Commissioners Iteporl as evi- dence ill rcs|iecl lo an\ tpieslion ofiacl llial is in dispute I'xci'pl so far as I will i^'ulhcr I'rom il Hie admission on Ihe idlier sidi-. I reler lo il as I icier I o Hie slalemenis of a parlv. and I shall lia\e somelhini; lo -av a lion t llial h\ and h\. II is enoiiuh hi sa\ now I I'ei'er lo I his ImoK a^ Hie s| u le- nient oi' Ihe atlverse parly, and where il eonlains any admission llial is I'avoiirahle lo ns. I have a rijilil to use il as snch. Where il idiilaiii- any oilier sluleinenl, I shall have an opporlnnily lo show helore I i^cl lliroiii;li, or rallier all Hie \\av alonj; wheiiever I deal willi (pieslioiis of lacl jnsl how far il is leliahle as evidem-e. On this snlijccl, and when I li.ive read what lliev say, if Ihe case had remained wliere it rem.iined al Hie lieijin- niii^' ol' lliis Collider Case, nolliin^ more >\ciiil(| need lo have lieen added, hecaiise Hie Itrilish Coinmissioneis.a^ von will see, admil Hie whole poinl I'or • ! icli I liiive heeii ciiiileililin^. locoincide ^eiierallv willl llie Ainerieail as with this ^ival hody of evidence. Then say al -edioii I',I7 paf;e :tj llial is Ihe lirsl Ihal deals willi Ihal snhjeel : lle.pi'cljiif; Ih.' mijiiatieii-i'.in^v of the Inr-scals which ic-iul lo ijn' Cuniiiiandcr M, 111(1-. Id Knlihi'ii Island, and in small nnmlnTs |., scvei'al placs In ||i,< Kiiiile Is- Inid-, .IS I V fully mdcd in -iihsei|ucnt pa.;.'es,i ipacatively little li;is hcen recur- dcd, hut the result (if impiiries made ill vaiimis diiecliiins, when lirDlliiht loL'elher, ate siil'tlcient Id eiiahli' its ;;eiieial I'haracler and the area which il cnvers Id he ■ ■nlliiii'd. Tlicdell, i.iny in iiilDrniatiDii rDi'lhe .\siatic cua-ts depi^iids on the lacl thai pelagic scaling, as nndc'i IdikI on the coast dI' .\niciica, is thcic practically ill — llt3i — iiiikiiowii, wliili' Iho |)i'ii|i|i' iiilialiilin^' llio coast ami ih ailj^ici'iil islands do iii>t, jiko Ihc liiiliniis iiiiil .M(Mils of l|i(' o|i|i(isiti> sldo ol llii> N'orlli I'arillc, iiatiiriillv vi'itliiii- far lo si>a lor Iniiiliii;.' |iiii'|>usi>s. Now I call |miii(iiliir nitoiilioii to lliis : Till' facts alirady cili'd in cnnni'ilion with tlm lliijrialion of Iho seals on the iMisI side of the Parillr. slmw that tlii'si' animals imiIim' ami Icavo llehi in^' Sim alnmst I'li- liirly liy lhi> rasli-rn passes thi'oni.'li llii* .Mi'ntiaii tliain, nml thai only iimirr I'M'i'p- lional rircninstanci's, and umirr siri'ss of wpalhi'i', aro soini' yount: seals, while mt tlipir way south, driven as far lo Ihe west as Alka Island. No larp' Imdies of lui- gratin^r seals ari' Known to pass near Attn Island, llns wesh:rnniosl of Ihe AliMitians, and no yoniif-'-eals have ever wilhii. fneinory I nseei\ there, 'flnse circnnistaMies with others whieh it is not nei'essaiy lo detail here, aru snl'lleienl to deinonstrale that the main nnVralion-ioiiles of the seals IVeipienlin^' the (louimander Islamis do, not touch the .Meuliaii chain, ami there is i.'very reason lo helieve that allhon^'h the seals liecome niorc or less eommiii;.'led in llehriii}; Sea duriii;.' the siunnier, the mi- (.'rationroules ol the hvo sides of the North Pacilic are essoiitially distinct. I I'ofer now to si'clioii ['V.\ (il'lliis tlociimeiil on pnp- HO : The impiiries and ohsor\alions iiow made, liowever, eiiahle it lo he shown thai Ihe fur-seals of the two sides of the North Picille helon^' in the main to praclicilly distinct miKralion-lracts, holli of which aro elsewhere traced out and descrihedl ami it is lielieved that while to a certain extent Iransfers of individual .seals or of small j-'roiips occur, prohahly every year, helween the I'rihilof and Commander trihes, that this is evceptinnal rather than noriual. It is not lielieved that any vnlun- tary or sysleniiilic inoMMnent of lui-seals lakes place from one f;ronp of hreedin;; Islamis to Ihe other, hut it is prohalde that a coutiuued harassing' of the seals upon onejiiiiup luif-'hl result in ii course ot ye.irsina correspoiuliu;.' j:radual accession to the other ^roiip. Ill whul I liavo riiflhfr lo s;iy oti this stiiijoct, I hope, Sir, llmt you will liiNir Iliis liui^iiii^e ill iniinl, I will ;ilsii rend i.'>'i : Ihere is no evidence whatever show thai any cousiderahle hranch of Ihe seal trihc which has its w inter home oil the coast of Itiilish r.olumhia resorts in sumniei' to the ('.oininander Islands, whether volmdariiy oi leil Ihiiher in pursuit of lood- ILslies, ami impiiries aloii}; the Aleutian chain show that no re^-nlar ini).'raliiin route fullows its direclion, whether to the north or south of the islands, It is certain that Ihe yoiini; seals in jroini.' sniithw.iril IVoiu the Piihilof Islands only rarely ^'ct drifted as far to the westward as the 17-Jnd niii iilian ol west louf-'itude, v.'tiile Attn Island, on the IT.Ird lueridian east, is never visited hy \ uiuijr se.ils, and therefore lies helwecu the re;;ular ailtuiuu nii,i;r.iliuri loiiles ol the seals f;oiu^' from tln' I'ri- h\lof and (",ouiinanih;r Islamis respectively. ir liny (lillViiMico liclwocn lli.il iiiul llu^ |H'0|Misilioii llial I iiiive slatod ill n'f:ar(l lo llicsc sciils. wliicli is sliiteil h\ Iho American C.oniniissioncr.s, li\ jl' Allen, and Ity a ((Uisidofable niiinhtT ol' wiliicsses that I shall allndc lo iK't'oal'ler, call l»c perceivod, il is a dilVerenci' Ihal is nol percoplihli! lo nil'. .Noverliu'li'ss, and lliis is nol Iho llrsl iiistanci', nor Ihi' last, in wliicli dilVfi'i'iil slaliMnt'iils mi |hi' -.aine siilijecl and on liii' same point will lie i'liiiiid ill this ilociiineiil, Ihore is soinolhin^ in sorlioii :2lll thai seems lo hear (he other way, — Ihal il is not easy lo reeoinile, hy any of Ihe simple processes of reasonin;; thai arc o[)en lo me, with thai which I iiave been reading. u 'i. ■ — i!tn:t — III .-ic'cliiin 210 it is snid III cH'ilri' Ici ai'i'iM' iit .IS i'i>iii|ilc'li> a kliowli'il^'i* as pnssililo of tin' arliial ili>li jliii- liciii njllic riir->iMl ill Hi'liiiiij; Sra, acjiciilar was |ii('|iairil, in which il was ii'i(iu's- Icil llial ii'tjiiiar si-al liijis shmild hi' kcpl on the Hiitlsh criiiziTs, niid, Ihnni'.'h Ihct kimhii'ss (iT lh>' (',iiiiiiiinii(|i>i'-iii-i'hii;riiii thii Paciltc Station, (■oiiiiiiiinicaloil In Ihi'ir I'.ninnianih'is. Tin' wmk was taki'ii ii|) willi I'lithiisiasiii hy tlic various nl'lirors, anil iiiaiiilaini'il tiiriiii^'liniit tin,' suasnn. Caii'liil iili^iivaliitiis d tin' same kiinl wrri' alsd iiiaili' I'll I'lii iiwii straiiii'i', IIk' " Daiiiilii' ", ami Mihs<'i|in iillv. Iliinii^'h Hid iiiiiiiDsv 111' till' I'niti'il Stales ' ('.uiiiiiiis-iunt'is, nipics nl llin trark-i harts, anil iili- siTvalinns iiiaili' of seals hv Ihn vaiimis I'liili'il Stales ' cnii/.ors, weri; su|i|iliei|. hilbi'iiiatioii till the saiiii' siiliji.'ct wns nlsu sitii^'hl in vaiiuiis dllior ways, siieli as hy ini|iiii\ rimii the eaplaiiis anil hands of siMlinji-vessels iiii'l in Victoria and Vancmi- ver, anil Innii Hie inhahilants nl' various jilaecs touched at diiritii: tin.' siiniiiiei'. Thoii section 212 |iiif;i' '•)'.') : — z The iihsei'vatii'iis al miiinianil for \X'^\ practically cover prelly thonniL'hIy the perioil of alioiil Iwi) iiiniiths diiriii;: which seal- are nriliiiarily (akeii liy pelagic hiili- lers ill llelii'iii^' Sea.exleiidin^ Irniii the iniilille nl .Inly In the iiiiildle 111 Si'pti'iiiher, and they are iiincli innre coinplele Inrtl astern than I'nr Ihe western pari nf Hid llchriii;.' Sea. On cniisiileralinii nf the nialcrial tn he ileall willi, il was ilcciijeij that il iiii^'ht he iiinst ailvaiita;;eoiis|y ilividuil iiiln twn pi'rimls of alinilt a iinmlli each. Hie llrst iiichiilin^' all d.iles Irniii Ihe IMIi .liily In Hie IMli .\ii;;il>t, .iiiil Ihe serninl llni>(> liel- ween till' l.'itli Aii;;ilsl ami the l.'ilh Scpteiiiher. All Hie lines crni/.eil nver ill the lirstof tlii.'se perinils were pint ( I'd nn iiiie sel of maps, ami llmse ill the secnml perind nil amilhiT. The ]iarls nl these tracks run nver during' the iiii:lil, ami in which seals Iherc'fnre cniilil mil well he nlisci'M'd. were iiiilicaled on Ihe maps in a dill'e- reiil manlier Iroiii the day hacks, as fir as pns^ililc; and willi the .'issistain e nftlm ln;;s, Ihi; iiiinihers of seals si'i'ii in certain iiitersals were then entered alnii;.'- the va- rious roiiles in a ;jraphic iiiannor. flic jilaces in wlii'li pela^ric sealers had leporled seals 111 lie ahiimlanl or oHiDrwise, as wi'll as lliosi. in wliicli S''aliii;.'-vess,.ls were foiiiid at work hy Hid criii/.crs, ami other fails nlitaiiied Imm various sniiiie, were also iiidicaled mi the maps, 'rill' I'osiill of nil Mils i<, if villi will imw have llu; kiiiiiiii'ss to turn to |ia^c l.'ill III' till' lii'ilisii ('.iiiniiiissiiiiii'r's |{e|ioi'l. Ilial tliri'i- iiiii|is an; std fiirlli liy ilicst! ;,'i'iilleinoii. Tin- lifst is iiiiiiiali-riii! In my pre nut |uir|iosL'. II (inly imiicalos I heir own cruise; I In- sei'oinl imil lliinl maps \ on will liiid iiiilicaled, in red colour, wiial l!ie;. call llie resoils and miirralion routes III' Hie liii'-seals in the North I'acille, Voii will see Iroiii thai red colniif that tlio resort and liabilal lo use a very awjvward vNordi of these animals extend clear across from the American to Hie Itussian side, ii considc- ralili! dislance lo Hie iiorlli and soiitli. !l is ail re|iresented so thai thai map conveys Hie idea to anyliody tlial looks at it that these seals are scat- tered all tlir(iu};li that body of water in sncli a manner that, if il was Irne, ii would lie tolally iin|iiissii)le lo assume wliicli seal went to wliieii Island, or wliellier il made any dill'erence lo any seal wliicli island il wonl to. Till! Iliird map exlcnds from .Inly the l.'ltli lo Aiij;nsl Hie idtli. The fonrlli map. wliicli I omitted to refer to, "ives the area frequented iiy fur-seals from An^usl tlic iHtli to Seplemiiei tlie i:itli IS'.M. Loolvin^ at liial map and looking' al iiot!i!iif;else. il settles Hie (jueslion IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I IIM 12.5 IIM 2.2 ,i ill ;ii3^ 12.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 ^ 6" — ► Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WE5» MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14580 (7»6) !t72 f503 i/x :<> — 1034 — Unit lliere is no |)iirlicular distinction tlnil liiesc seals arc cvcrywiicrc intermingled generally all llirongli. That is, of course, what llie map was intended to convey, and what it does convey until it is refuted. You will remember the particularity with which it is stated that these maps arc founded upon the logs of the British cruisers aud the American cruisers. They are not conjectural; they are not hypothetical, nor suggested; they are put before you as the result of the cruises and the observations re- corded in the logs by the naval Officers of Great Hritain and America, undertaken with great eulhusiasm by the Hritish Officers, you will re- member, aud undertaken at all events, whether with enthusiasm or not, by the American Officers. Now, would it be credited till a reference is had to the map that we were fortunately able to furnish on this subject, that no one of those cruisers ever was in a position to arrive at any such result, or to furnish any information whatever on the subject? That these maps with their apparently conclusive results as to the locality of these seals, stated to be founded upon observations of the very best official character by a gentleman whose qualillcations are unquestionable and whose character is above dispute, officially had no foundation' whatever except the foun- dation which these gentlemen say in their licport aside from this where tbey say there is nothing known on the subject that is dclinile. I shall ask you attention (o Majis N ' 1, 2 and 3, iu the Portfolio of tiic American Counter Case; and if you will be kind enough to look at those .Maps, N" I shows the ci jises of ihe American vessels, six in number, from .July the 15th to Au{.' ist the iijtli. You will see how far to the west they went. Yoi; will see that they never entered the waters that arc concerned by this enquiry. They went to no such place. They not only made no such observations and no such record as would aflbrd a foundation for the British Commissioners, but they never went where they could have made any observations or have known anything upon the subject. If you will, now kindly look at Map iN" 2 of the same Portfolio, you will find the logs of the British Vessels for the same period of time. These are the gentlemen who entered into the matter with great enthusiasm. I have no doubt they did, as far as they went into examining this subjeci ;and you will see that not one of them was much west of the I7'ith degree of longiliidc, between that and 175", from Ihe Yakulat Pass away up to St Lawrence Island, and, of course, Ihey could not have made any such observations as to the locality of the seals beyond that. Then, by referring to the third Chart, you will sec that the logs and cruises of the two Navies or Naval Squadrons, Ihe .Vmerican and the Bri- tish, cover the second period and combine Ihe two in one map. For the first period, they are given in separate maps; for Ihe second period, they are given in the same map, and it gives the courses of six United Stales vessels and four British vessels. You will see that in that Chart they run across ouce and back again, and round aud about. It is delineated there between the Pribilof and Commander Islands, as the others did not; — 1»3,S — and, on (his map, are laid down llie seals lliey saw williout alienipling to discriniinale between liair seals wliieli we siiall sec frequented lliat region. You will see, from the \o'^, there are almost none al all. The first Chart shows the ships never were in a place where they could have obtained evidence in support of the oilier map. The second shows that they did once or twice run across Ihere, and thai, when they did, they did not see any seals. So tiiat their (evidence was exactly the other way. Now this is exposed in the Counter Case of the United States ; and what have they to say about it? Motiiin}!; whatever. In the British Counler C^a^-e, it is said in sui)slance (I will not slop lo read it) that the information referred to seems not to support the map, or some words to liiat efl'ect. If the words are found for mo, I will read them exactly, but tlicy neither claim, which of course, no man could claim who, looks at liiescmaps, that their map derives any support from liiese charts, nor do tiicy oll'er any explanation of how it came lo |)ass that they were so much deceived as to construct these elaborate mapsupon observations, citing no olher aulhority for liiem than tlie observation of ships tiial eilber never were there at all, or, when lliey were there, liieir observations were directly the other way. This is what is said in the British Argument on this subject, 1 will not allude lo this without calling attention to what is said on the olherside. When this was pointed out in the Counter Case, when it was shown thai the foundation for Uicsl second British Appendix to the ('.ounter Case, .Mr Henry Poland says : I am ;i iiiciuIjit ol the liriu of 1". H. Poland and Son, of No 110, Oiioon Victoria Street aforesaid wliieh lias lieen rslablislied siiKMS 1";),') and 1 have Ijeen enpaficd in tlie till' trade tor over twenty two years. Sir Charles RusselL — lie was one called by you in the first instance. Mr Phelps. — Ves, tiiisisone of the three witnesses called by us, I have remarked. I have hesides taltingnislialde from Copper Island skins, and this fact is borne out hy thi' o[iinion of the late Mr Charles Collins. .And so forth. Then : Tlie next dilfercnce bntweeu Copper and Alaska skins is llie iinalily. By this 1 mean density of fnr. Density, of course, signifies a greater number of atoms of fur on the animal. This is undoubledly the chief comnuM'cial dilfercnce between the Chopper and Alaska types. Alaska skins are denser in fur, or belter in quality, and the value is conse(|uontly greater. Then MrSlamp on page 2ia, another ofthe witnesses we examined was re-examined by Ihein, and he says, after staling who he is, and how long he has been in the business : As regards the dilference between Alaskas and Coppers in my opinion they are the lollowing : 24b — lOiO — (I Thofnr of llin Alaskan is. on tin' avciagc. tlosor and dnnsnr Mian Iho fnr of llio Coppers. (II) Tliorois a (lillorcnci' nf colour hctwcon llii' fur, but this is only very slij.'lil. and varios in ilitlVrnnl years somolitups (lie Coppers being ligiiter, soiiielinies llie A'askas. illl Tlie skill (if (he Alaskas. on Hie wiiolo run iar^ter lliaii Hie skins nf Hie Cop- pers, prnlialily Hiroufrli lieiiif.' i)p|ler liaiidled and selecled. (IV TliiM'e is a lai;:er ipiaiilily of uiideivniwHi of Hie hair in Coppers wliiili is probably due to Ibe fad Hial Hie skins arc laHier more or less oul of seasini, wiieii they are buginnini.' to approach the stajtoy eoiulitioii. (V) Tbo above differenees are the only dillerences wliieli I ean recall. They are the dillerences wliicli affect Hie i|uestioii of price, particularly Hie las! nii'iilioiied feature as In Hie presenie of Hie underj,'iinvHi of hair. This hair is Irciiihlescniie to reiiKive, and some parHcli's of hair always remain, and causes the fur to fei'l harder. In my iipinicm there is no absidiile line of (leniarcation between Hie Copper Island skins and .Mask.is, and in inspectin;,' (he consifjnuienls made each year fruin the Piihilof Islands, Hirou^rh Lanipson and Co, 1 have found a certain percentage of skins which were fac-similes nf (dipper Island skins, and in Hie same way, in iiis]iecliii;; consifjnmeiils of Copper Island skins, I have seen skins wliic h had I seen Hiem elsewhere, I should have classed them as Alaskas. and also a certain number of Hu' iiilerinediate decrees of similarity. Tlie (pialilies uf Iho skins vary greatlv in dilh.'rent years, some years (he Coppers approach in quality very closely to the Alaskas. Yoii SCO hiiw Hint runs fliroiif;li nil lliis tosliinony in a niomnnl I pause hero lo call alleiilion lo lliis, llial in all this miillilii(le of evidoiiee, anionfi all llicsc sealers and sealinfi eaplains and scientists and Commissioners no witness testifies liiat a Commander Island seal has ever been found on llic I'i'iliilol' Islands or killed liiei-e: no witness leslilles that any Priliilof seal was ever found on the C.oniniander Islands or killed there — lud one. No fur dealer says that lie ever found an .MasUan skin in a Co|)per Island ciilcli or that ho ever saw a Copper Island skin in an .\laskan. Lord Hannen. — Then what is the meaning of this phrase " fac- simile '"? Mr Phelps. — That is for the Tribunal to consider. Lord Hannen. — 1 should iniajiine it to be that lliey found seals which tliey coidd not distiufiuish one from another. Mr Phelps. — .V very small number state that. I shall jjo Ihrongh all this evidence in a moment. I have not done with it. I shall sec what they mean, most of Ihem. F.el me as well here as anywhere else e if! attention lo the difl'erence in the prices in the FiOndon market. Pei'bap- that should precede the examination of Iheso furriers. The averajic prices of Alaskans and Copper skins iire given from 187(1 to IH',)I in the table annexed loour Case. I have not the reference for it, but it shall be found, i'rom IH7H to 187!> the average price of .Alaskans was 't\)'/-2 1/2''. riic price of Copper iHV'.l 1/2-': from 188(1 lo I88'.>, Ihepriceof .Maskans was ()8/^8'i; the price of coppers 't8VI(l'i. In 18<,»0 the pric- of Alaskans was m\\ and the price of Coppers 72/'lH''; and from 187(1 lo 18'.)!, averaging the whole period the price was 6.")*/l0 1/2'' for Alaskans and i.'J'/'J'' for Coppers. General Foster. — .\nd the reference is lo .Mr I'raser's aflidavit of the r — IHtl — linn of Liimpsoii and Co on pufte otil of vol. 2 ol llie United Stales Appendix. Mr Phelps. — It is in tlieli},dilof lUoso prcris we arc to answer lite very pertinent (piestion pnt liy liis Lordship as to what these men mean hy tiie various phrases that they use. Does any man swear that he ever honght an .\laska skin at a Copper skin price, or that ever honglil ;i Co|)|)er skin and paid the Alaskan priee? Docs he ever say that he ever sold one of lliost; skins for anolher or honj^hl it for one and sold it for another? Does he say, in all his life he ever heard in the City of London of a firm i)cinfi; (old hy aiiyhody, " Von have sold me a <',op|)er skin as an Alaskan "? Lord Hannen. — If their value depended on the eiirinj; or dressing, and so on that would he accounted for. Mr Phelps. — It does not depend on the dressing. These are the raw skins. Lord Hannen. — The price in the market wouht depend on the dres- sing generally, and if a Commander or one exactly like it is found amongst llie .Maskaus, there is nothing to show that it does not sell for the same price on heiug treated in the same way. Mr Phelps. — I respectfully insist that it does. When these experts are brought and when not one of them contradicts the American evidence as to Ihe pi'ice of raw skins. Sir Charles Russell. — l>ul they are dressed in the sense of being llaycd cured before they come to the market, not dressed for sale ulti- nialeiy, of course. Mr Phelps. — They are taken off the animal and sailed and taken to London, if that is what you mean by dressing, bnl these are the prices of Ihe raw skins. The President. — Hcforo the rough hair is pulled olf. Mr Phelps. — Certainly. Sir Charles Russell. — '^'es. Mr Phelps. — And (licv all swear that it is lliis ([ualily that makes Ihedilference in the price, which, of course, goes without saying. Now 1 repeal, in respect of those raw skins, untouched except by sailing, wiiich is necessary to gel them to London without spoiling them, is lliereawit- Iness to be found among liiose patriot fur dealers who will tell you that he ever bought or sohl or heard ol anyl)0(iy buying or selling, or heard cf any dispule arising as to Ihe selling of "ue of these skins that is worth half as nnich again or more than the other — just about as much as half as much again? Not at all. See the language they use. This gentle- man stales he has found seals Ihal he would say were fac-similes. When viiu gel out of IhclMiglish language, you gel into a region of obscurity to those to whom the English is nature. I have no doubt that Ihe Homans understood that term as correctly as we understand any; butilis the re- fuge of Ihe obscurity of ideas orclse an intentional uncertainty of expres- sion on the part of the man who has to go outside bis own language I have no doubt this fur dealer is a classical sbolar, but be bad belter con- r line himself, when swoariiij; It) fads bel'oic Hie l']n};lish Irihiiiiuls lo Ihe h(ii^uii};(> Ihiil is unlive lo him. Lord Hannen. — iUilliien anollicr one (h)es use Ihe Kiighsh phrase aiul says ilis im(iisliiigiiishal)U-. Sir Charles Russell. — Vus, will you read Mr Apfel al pa{j;o '2U)! Mr Phelps. — I sliall read llial. ho not he eoiicerned : I shall not leave any of (his leslinioiiy nnrel'erred to, 1 have only j;ol so far as the second witness of the Ihree whom they re-examined whom the I'niled Stales have examined, and ! ean no more answer than anyhody else as to what he means to say. Then there is \V. lievin};lon whom we have examined. Ilis testimony will he found in our Case on pajie 2i',»: of Ihe Hrilish Counter-Case, lie says : — I am Iho samn person as tlio H. S. fJevington who made a doelarulioii al llie re- quest ot'lhn Unilod Stales lloprcsuntalivo on llio idlii day of April I8!li>, and appea- ring al pa,i;c ,'i,M of the l.'nitcd Statos'Case Appendix, vol. II, In my opinion ;it Ip.isI 'j;i per ccnl nt ilio skins found amongst Copper Island sKiiis arc undistin^'uislialili' from .Maskiis, and in the same way al Ii'ast 'J,'i per renl ol the skins found amon),'sl Alaskas are undislinguishahle from (hoppers. In hoth consignnienls 1 have noticed also a considerahle i|uanlity of skins which in a less marked manner resemhled the other class Iml 1 consider the hulk can he distin- guished. Thai is all on that point. -Now Mr l5evin;iton's previous evidence on the suhject will he found at page 92 of the appendix — I mean the extract that 1 read from it. The whole deposition is to he found al page ool of the 2nd volume of the Uni- ted Slates Ap|)en(lix. I read, lor convenience, from this extract on page 92 of Ihe collated leslimony. This is what he says. Thai llie dillerences hi'tween Ihe Ihree several sorts of skins last meiitiimed are so marked as to eiiahle any perxui skilh'd in Ihe husiness, or accustomed to handle ihe same to readily distinguish the skins of one calch from those of anolher, I'sjie- cially in Imlk, and it is the fad thai when Ihey reach the market llie skins of ea( h class come separat(dy and are not found mingled with those Ixdoiiging to the other classes. The skins ul' the Copper Island Calch are distinguished from the skins of the Alaski and Northwest (Jateli whieh two last mentioned classes nf skins appear lo ho n(,'arly allied lo eacli ullier ,ind are uf the same general character hy reason of the fad thai in Iheir raw state the Copi)er skins are lighter in colour than either of the oilier two, and in the dyed slate there is a marked diHereuee in Ihe appearenee of Iho fur of the Cupper and the other two classes of skins. This dill'ereiue is dif- ficult lo descrihe to ii person nnaecustomed to handle skins hut it is nevertheless clear and distinct In an expert and may he generally descrihed hy saying that the Cciiiper skins are of a elosi', short ami shiny fui' parliculary down hy the Hank lo a greater extent than the Alaska North west skin, Now, if you will read Ihe two de|)osilioiis of this gentleman logelher you will have Ihe o|)porlunily of ascertaining perhaps, ^if it is imjiorlant), what ii is Ihal he means to say. Mr Justice Harlan. — Mo not suhslaiilially all of Ihe jtritish Inirriers say, thai wilhout reference to any parlicular coiidilioii of these skins, that one ac(|uainted with the business can distinguish between Copper and Alaskan skins? I'jta — ;i Mr Phelps. — Tliov say thai siihslaiiliallj. As lo Mr ll(!viiij,'ton who 8\>L-ars lliero wiM'c ^ill iiorconl iiiKlisliii^iiislialile in (uic aflidavit. that any i;\|M'rl can reailily (lolorinini', and swears on llie oilier llial skins of liicone uru nol found in the olher, I leave liini. Mr Justice Harlan- — ^uNi"}; Hiat in a lot ol" Alaskan skins in the |)arlii'nlai' condilion, llial some ol' liieni ai'(> undislinnnishahlo from Cop- per skins, thai is very far I'roni saving; thai tiiose skins, and any of them, conn; from ()o|)per Island. Mr Phelps. — That is wlial I just remarked — that nol n witness ever swears tiial Copper skins were eviir found auionj; Alaskan or that .Alaskan skins were evci' found amonj; Copper, or that one was ever hou^lit or sold for liie other or thai anybody over charged such a thing. Lord Hannen. — It woidd siiow tiial the eliaraclerislic;; of the ivvo herds are not always deliiied. Mr Phelps. — They are very dislinclly delined l»y ail these witnesses, Lord Hannen. — I mean if they are not distinguishalde. Mr Phelps. — If they are nol disliuguishahle. tiiat is the vei'y point we ar(! discussiuj;. Lord Hannen. — I only dealt with it ou the assumption of the stale- men! that they eannol distinguish a certain numi)cr of Alaskan skins from Copper island skins. Mr Phelps. — \N f shall see wiien we get through (if you will have patience lo let me go through with this), how many of the witnesses say il. Senator Morgan. — I'lohaijly the weight of the ttjstimony has more to ill) with llial (piestiiiii than the slalemeul of any parlieular witness. Mr Phelps. — 1 shall hi'ing oul wlial the weight of this testimony is, in due tinio: hut I must lake one witness nl a lime. Lord Hannen. — So far as 1 am eoucernod it really only arose from your slaleiueiit, as I understood \ou, llial there was /w e\iileiice. 1 me- rely intended lo call alleiilion lo that. Mr Phelps. — Vonr Lordship misunderstood me. Lord Hannen. — 1 lieg your pardon. Mr Phelps. — What I say is this — I will state il again and 1 think I can state il so llial I shall nol he misunderstood : .\o witness testi- lies that a Commander Island seal was ever seen oi' killed in the I'rihilof islands : no witness leslilies that a i'rihilof seal was ever seen or kil- led in the Commander Islands : no witness lestifies that he ever saw a Commander skin in a Prihilof eonsigiunent: no witness testifies that he ever saw a i'rihilof skin in the Cominaiidi'r ciuisignnienl. .No witness. I repeat — I have said that hel'ore — leslilies that he ever honght or sold one for the other : that he ever knew that anyhody did, or that he ever heard of any dispute <)r ijuestion ai'ising hetweeii persons who deal with these skins h\ one charging the other that he had sold him a Cop- per for an .\laska or paid him the price of an Alaska, for a Co|)- per. Now we shall set; wlial they do say, and we see the first wit- ness they called (which is one we ealledj, swears thai he could — I!til — rtuidily ilisliii),'iiisli. .Mr ltL'viiif;((>n swears Itolli wiiys. lie swcni!* llial ;{H per ceiil arc (iiidislin^iiisliiililL' and lie sweais in liis Cornier ilt'li(Ia^il thai aii\ exjierl ean readily dislin^Miisli llieiii. Then Mr Slanip whoso loslimoiiy I have read uses this word far-sii/ii/c. " Now lour v iliiesses more — Mr NVobcr, Mr Houller, Mr Sydney Poland, and Mr .1. II. Shaw When dressed and dviMJ \on laiinol dislin- ma ke lliis slalemenl j;nisli lliem. " Thai is exlreniely prohahle. There is no occasion lo have any disiuile in this case ahoni ihat. Thai is what four of Iheni say. Then nine ol'tiiese witnesses, inolndin^ Apjicl whose leslimony my friend asked me lo read and tlierel'ore I will read it;, Mr Ince, and *.» others — 10 ol'them testify to this : thai lliey have seen skins in these varions consinn- mcnls which if Iliey had seen them elsewhere llicy would have classed as l)clon};inf;- lo the other herd — thai is what Ihey say. They iiol only do not say thai Ihey never found a skin thai they meant lo swoar to or Ihal was houjihl or sold, neither do Ihey say ihey could distinfiuish them. Ten of them (and 1 will read .\|)pel as my friend asks me I am recjnired loi, testify ; (if I have not included him in the wrouf; class, and I Ihiidv I have not). lie says at pap) 2I('> of the same hook, iu the ith paragraph. Ill iiisiMMliii;;- Cojiper idiisijiiiiiiciils. Sir Charles Russell. — NVonid yon hejiin wi Phelps. — Ifyi Charles Russell aKi'anh 3. Mr paragrap sou desire il. It is outside! the point. Sir riiat is the point I wished you to read. Mr Phelps, —lie says this: Tllcn; arc lliicc cliicl' cla.sscs of sUiiis dealt with iu llic l.diiilnii niarkel I he Alasl) the Coiipcrs, which cmnc Iroiu Ihc ("oiiiinaiidci' Island.'*; and Cti whal is 1 iwii as Ihe Noilli West Calrh. .\s i(',i;ards llii' dilfcrcnrc liclwci'ii .\laskas aim (:o|i|ii'i's, in my jiidniiiciit Ilic only dill'crcnccs ai'c Ihat Ihe .Vlasku fur is idosn- and duiiscr lliaii llic Coiijicr fur, and Iho skins Then lie hi'llcr haiidli'd on the I'liljiliif Islands Ihai the t^oiiimandir Islands. other diU'cieiicc hat 'i; the lire llli! dill'ci'i'iicc: wliiili make the conimcrcial dilfcrci ICC III piice, II docs not require tin; leslimony of a great many, witnesses lo find out thai when there is a slandard dilference of a half in Ihe price of an arliclc. the dilference must he in Ihe quality. Thai is a prctly safe assumption. Then he says. T'ho (lurslioii of price is also fjically influenced liy Ihe following- civcumslaiice, namely, thai Iho name of (he .Maskas is so miieli better known lliaii llie name of Iho r.t.ppeis, nol only lo Ihe imlilic hut to the trade. Why? The (lojipers have heiMi in Ihe market as long as the .Maskas have. They are heller known lo the puhlic because they are known to he heller skins. Then he says : The losiilt of this is Ihal foroiun houses, who cannot siMid a personal repivsen- lative to atleiul the sales, iiislruut a-eiits, and as Ihey ciiuiiot personally inspect Ihe — Ilflii — skins llioy ).'iv<' orders In Ihcii' iiKcnls Id pin'cliiisi' Alaskns In prcfcronce lo Cniipers. Kii^ilisii lidiisos iin llu! spol liiiy moii' usually Copiicrs, hocaiisi' Ihi'y know liy sc'li'cliiif: cciiaiu lots llicy iifl jus! as jtciod valiio and at a clicapi'i' rale, nwiiif; In till' all^t'llld (if I'dri'i;.'-!! CdMiprlilidll Inf lIllMll. Ill iii>pi'rliii;.'lliii (!iippi'i(dnsi;.'nin('iils inadi' caili year Id Lainpsdii and (>>, I liavi', I'diiiid ill sdiiic yiMi'S as iniirli as ,l,'t per i-ciil dC lln: skins wliicli wi'ic (jiiili' as ;:d()(l in quality, ami wcri' ipiili' iindislinf,'iiislialili' Iniin Alaska seal skins, and «liirli, had I si'on tlii'in idsrwliprc, I slmiild have classed as Alaskas, and in the same way, in inspeclintr Alaska rnnsij^ninenls, I found an oipial peiTciila}.'e (d" skins whiili in llio same way resemlded (Inppeis. Mdsl id' ilii'sc iiicii will) tcsiirv lo llii? snine form of words — whnt llipy slniultl \iii\o //ii)in//il ir lliey hud seen llitMn olsewlieri! — llius, liico, tor oxumpli", !it pilots '2Mi, says : In iiisiieclin;;- paicids of skins I'luiii i'rildidf Islands sold from lime In lime liy Lampsdu and ("d, I have noliceil nmoii^'sl lliem skins of seals which I shduld liavo llidn|,'!il, had they nol been there, weri' from Ihe Cdiiimamler Island skins, and, in (he same way, in inspecliii}; skins of Cdiiimander Island seals. I have iidtiend amdii|.'st lliem skins jiisl like Alaskas, and. of conrse, in i'a(di class I !.>.e noted skins (d Ihe oilier (dass, juit of a less marked decree of similarity. .Now Id of Ihest! wiliiossps shilc il in thai was. I need imt read it over again. Then, as I siiid, four of llieiii slale liml Uh ,re umlijlin- ^nisiialile when dressed ami (l\ed, wliich \oii will renienilter is jiisl wlial .Mr il<'iirv Pohiiid, examined on holh sides, s.iys, and whiili may Irive possil)ly i)eeii Ihe s;dve lo Hie eonscienee of men like .Mr Ueviiig- ton, who staled il holli ways. .Now of those wl.o swear that the skins arc un(lislin}j,iiislialile — not tluil tliey are inidistingiiishahle when dyed and dresseil, not llial they would nol have known, if lliey had seen Iheiii elsewhere, that lliey were not .\laskas, — of these furriers who swear that they are undislinguishahle there are only five, including .Mr Meving- lon who swears hotli ways. .Ml this in Ihe Counter Case, so that we can otVer no reply to il at all. We take; it as Ihe Tribunal lakes it — e\i- denec that ought lo he utterly rej(!cteil on that account alone, hut which will ho regarded, of course, always with the proper qnalilicatioii. Out of this mass of witnesses who are paraded to overcome Hk; mass of testi- mony on the oilier side — from the very men who sell all these skins — the very largest l'urri(!rs in Ihe woidd, IxdIi in Mngland and America — yon get live who slate that they are undislinguishahle; yon get four more who say they art' undislinguishahle when Ihey are dressed and dyed; you get 10 who say, if they had seen them elsewhere they might have put them in the wrong catch; and you gel one, who swears, as contrary to what he did before positively, thai they are perfectly distinguishable. Then as I remarked, you have gol seven witnesses whom they examined, who are fur dealers. They did nol examine them on this point, and it is very fair lo infer that Ihey did not examine them because they found that no valuable evideiu'e on lln'ir side coidd be extracted. Now this question, as has just been remarked by Senator Morgan, like all other questions of fact, has lo be decided on t!ie weight — the balance — of Ihe evidence. 'i% Sir Charles Russell. — There are Iwo Freiicli furriers whom we also examined — I do iiol know whether you intended to omit lliem. I do not ask you to trouble about Ihein. Mr Fhelps. — They have boon read — llic two French witnesses, — and they are included in llic classes I have made of those witnesses. Sir Charles Russell. — I do not ask yon to read llicni. I merely mention it. Mr Fhelps. — 1 will not stop lo read them for the reason that they have been read. Now let me refer for a moment, (and I am nearly llironpli with this readingV lo some of liiese men whom lliey did not undertake to cross- (>\innino. Here is .Mr I'lmil Teichmann whose accouni, from his I'amilia- rily with Ibis business, shows that there are very few who know as much as be. Mis whole testimony is to be found on pajje .'iSO of the second .Vppendix lo the American Case, but I am n!ading from i)af;o \)1 of liie collated testimony. He is a member of the li: m of Lampson and Co. Sir Charles Rufsell. — ^^'ht> i>re a{;ents for the lessees. Mr Phelps. — They are Ibe men who receive ami sell all these skins, and have, always, since they began. There are several |)artncrs, and several of them testify, Mr Teichmann says : 'rill' sUins of the Alaska und (.'.dppi'i' calchos arc icadily (iisliiignislicd from oaoli ollii'i', and I'diniiiand difl't'i'dit |iiioi's in niarkol, and I sliimid have no diffiriilly, and wonid nndi'rtake, froui my knowlod^'c nf Hie various skins, to sc'iiaralo (loppor skins from .\laska skins, should tliey over bo found mipfjli'd topcllicr, as, liowovnr, llicy arc not. Tho .Maska and Copper skins arc dislinf;uislialile fioni each cdlier partly by means of the dill'erenl lulor. 'I'lu! (".oppiT Island skins ^-iMierally have a darker top hair, and are more yellow on Ihe cheeks than the Alaska skins. Perhaps a surer means of distin^'iiishiiii,' Ihe two is Ihe dillerenee in sliajie. 'I'lio Copper Island skins aie much narrower at the hi'ad than the Alaska skins, and this dill'erenci! is very marked. In our warehouses we have a difl'erenl set of frames for the sizing out of Ihe Copper skins from those wo use for the Alaska skins ano- ther dilVerence ipiite as important as the shape is that the fur upon C.ipper Island skins is eousiderahly shoiter on the Hanks ami tuuaiils the tail than is the fur of the Alaska skins. .Ml nf tliese dilfeiiiiei'S are so marked, as 1 hav> before stated, as lo enable any expert, or one familiar with the lianilliug of skins, to I'eadily dis- tinguish t'.oppi'r from .Vlaska skins, or e/re I'l'isn, but it is true in the ease of very young animals the dilfcrenees are much less marked than in Hie ease of the adult animal. Wo receive practically no skins of very young animals from Alaska, but we do reeeivo at times a certain uunibei' id' the skins of (be ycuiiig animals Iroui (lopper. All the skins of bulb the Copper and Alaska catches are the skins of tho male ,'iiiimals. The skins of the North-west catch are in turn readily disliuuuishable ". Then Mr Kraser of the same firm leslilies. Page "i'iH of (lie 2ii(l riiilcd Stales' .Vppendix is where his deposition is; but 1 am n;ading; now from page ',):{ of (lie collated evidence : Depnnenl fuilher says that the distinction between the skins nf the several cat- ches is so marked that in this jndguioni he would, for instance, have had no liifli- rully, had there been included among lOd.llOtt skins in the Alaska catch 1,001) skins of the Copper catch in distinguishing Ihe I.OdO cnpiier skins and separating thi'iii in t ^ lil',7 — fidiTi llip 09,000 Alaska skins, or llial any nthor person Willi nqual or loss cxpor- i(Micc in tho hamiliii^' oF skins would bi; oqnally alilo lo (lislin^'uish tlicni. And wliile these wiliiessos, wlio speak (if llie diirercnces belween (lieso sonls, do not any of lliem }{ivc all the diirercnces wliicli are given by .Mr Teiclimann, yet more or less of llic witnesses testify to every item of dill'erenee that lie leslilies lo. Kvcry single one is sn|)|>orted by Hie leslimoiiy of the divers witnesses as lo Ihe differences. Some slate one ditl'erence, and some another. Mr Teiclimann stales them all, and he is corroborated as to everyone o( them by more or less of the other wit- nesses. Of course, I need not say that no member of Ibis lirm was called by the other side on this subject. Then Mr Liebes who is an .\mcricnn from San Francisco says, at page 93 of the Collated Testimony : — In tho imrsnil of my business 1 have bad an opporlniiily (o buy and oxaiuine liir seals laUoii Irom llio Couiniandcr Islands, and can roadily dislintinisb tlioni IVom Ibo North-wi'sl coast catcli, and those taken I'roni the I'ribilol' Islands. They iirc evidently a distinct and separate herd, as tlie I'oinidatlun nl" Ibo I'nr is inu(di courser, and at Iho same time does not cover the belly as thickly as on the Alaska seal, and is of very much less value. Tho proof of Ibis is that Ihe ("iominander Islanil skins briu).' SO per ceni less in the market than Ibo Alaska skins. Then Mr .Martin lestilies. His linn dresses Ihree-foiirlhs of all the shins Ihal coiii(> into Ihe I.ondon .Market, lie was not called upon by these gciilleiuen allhotigh be leslilied in Ihe case for us. He says : The dilVercnces between these several classes of skins are so niaikod as to enable any person skilled in tbe business to reailily dislinifuisb uric I'niiu tbe oilier. The dill'erences belween the Copper Island catch and tbe .Alaska catcb arc marked and enable anyone experienced in liandlin}.'' skins to dislinifuisb the mie Ironi tbe iitber. The Copper Island skins show that the animal is narrower in the neck and at the tail than the Alaska seal: and lln' I'nr is shorter, particularly iinder the I'lip- pci's, and the hair has a yellower tinj^e than hav(^ the hairs of Ihe .Maska seals, so that before Ihe skins are dressed the Iwo may be n'adily distinguished hum each oilier, and whiledepoueiit has made no such attempt he believes llial it would be rea- sonable to say thai if 1,000 Copper Island skins wi're min}.ded anionp ilil.OOO Maska skins il would be possilile for anyone skilled in Ihe linsiui'ss to cxti'acl H.'iO oi' tlie 1 .00(1 Copper Island skins, and to separate Ihem lidin Ihe ini.O.'iO of llie Alaska catch, and I'irr rcisn. Then hcspcaksaboul there liciiig males and females and soon. There are a good main more Ihal I mnsi ncd slop lo nvul. There are some 21 wilnt>sscs — experls — who swear lo Ihe same piirporl. .Now il will be' lioriie in mind llial IbcriMslhis evidence, and Ihal of these wanderers of Ihe sea who have se?ii Ihese seals in a grciLl many plai-es which liicy do iiol very wclltleseribe — it is upon that evidence thai Ihey have overcome, iiol merely Ihe evidence of Ihose speeilic points on Ibeollier side, but the insurmount- able evidence there is from Hie habils of Ihese aniiiiais — the scienlilic slalemenls of Ihe laws b\ which they are governed — the geopraphy — which shows llitd il is almost ini|)ossible, and the fad Ihal no such claim appears ever to havebeen set up throiigboul up lo the lime of this f.ouiiler 2iH y ***7-7 — isns — Case, except vaguely in the IJrilisli Case, and thai nobody ever made a discovery of llie actual seal and the actual skin on the island, or in the consijinnients. Now they have brought together a considerable number of witnesses — all sealers swearing in defence of their craft, and you know how strong the animus is. You have found out by this time it has reached a much higher class of men tiian these pool' seal hunters of various nationalities, of whom II is only due to the aboriginals to say, (if you were to judge from the weight of tiie testimony i, that they are quite as iioiiesl as the races that have succeeded them. Now these witnesses divide principally into two classes. They are those who give localities and limes where they claim to have seen seals. Those witnesses, almost without exception, show tiiat they saw tiie seals just where they shmild have seen them — where they naturally would be in tiieir migration route. Their (svidence does not at all, therefore, tend lo establisii the fact of intermingling. Then there is another class who give no localities and no dates, swea- ring from general memory, and they have seen seals every where. Well, it is impossible lo contradict them of course exce|)t by the general incre- dibility of their statements. It is to be remembered again before pro- ceeding to examine this n little more closely, thai the hair seal is to be found all tiirougb the sea in consideral)le numbers. II is imjiossible lo distiiiguisii tliem in the water at any distance — of course easily enough teconil volume of llie Appendix lo the ih'ilish C.ounter Case says : 1 have f;oni^ iiitu Hehrini,' Sea lhroni:li the IT-Jnd pass, and M'eii a>s in the month of September. Th'(( is where lliey belong. IThe position was pointed out on tlic mapj. The seals in .\ugust wore douhlless yearlings on their way to the Islands. Then Captain Caller says that coming back from the Uussian side he saw seals in the North I'acilic lliroe or four hundred miles from the .Meiiliau Islands — still in the regular migration route. There is quite a number of men who make these vague statements about seeing scattered seals idl the way. and every day, and so I'orlh. One of them, K. W. Strong, on page 'I't says : Wo saw scattered seals every day all linkway over mostly -1 and 3 year old hulls, but some full grown males ami females. How (lid he make thai diseovery? Hy Hie same means that enabled those men to leslify wlieri> tlicy came from and where they were going t< . Then Cieorge V. [''rencli who is called as a cliam|>iou witness — lie luriis up several times in the course of this case, swearing to facts that are not very easy to believei — says ; While crossing Hehring Sea to Copjier Island he passed small bauds of seals Iravelling rapidly north easterly. You do not lind from him " Crossing lirhiing Sen ", in what pari of the sea they were; but he seems to have discovered that if Iliey were not in Hie right place Iliey were going fasi for the right place where — lltS'J — llieir presence would prove somclliiiifi page 2fj : — And tlie siiinc witness savs on I loiinied rrom ii liiiiilci' on the « TcM'fsan last yeiir lliat a large I)aiul of soals had been inol willi 480 miles north cast of Coppei' Island travelling towards Coppor Is- land. This was in the early pari ol July. From Hie Chart of seizures found in Hie portfolio of maps tlial accom- panies tlie case of tlie United States, il will be seen that the "Teresa » was warned out of Helirinj; Sea on the I7lh July iit a lime when she was sailing south of St (Jeorge's Islands and vol in thai early pari, as he says, of that month, he saw lhein2H0 miles — that is more than a thousand miles from there. [The position was indicalod on the map.] I'p to the north east of the Commander Islands for the pur|)ose, not eerlainly of sealing because there is no sealing ever done up there — for the purpose of seeing the seals that were travelling to the north cast I sup- pose. These witnesses will be found (and perhaps that is all thai is neces- sary to say on this subjcci) lo arrange themselves in the classes that I have indicated. Wherever a man states with any parlicularity or cer- tainly where he saw llie seals and irhen he saw Ihem, he saw them where Ihey belonged. Wherever he saw seals in any place that would tend lo in- dicate a mingling of Ihe herds if Ihey were fur-seals at all — which re- mains lo be seen — he is able lo give no lime, no place — he kepi no re- coi'd — his mind was no! charged wilh il : and he is called upon in Ibis extra way, really, swearing in his own behall, to testify aboiil it after- wards. .Now Ihere is some prelly sirong evidence Ihe olher way to he deriv(!(l from Ihe lirilish side, as well as from Ihe .\merican evidence that I shall allude lo al'terwards; but as we ar(! so near the lime of Ihe adjournment before I go lo that, if il would be equally agreable to Ihe Tribunal for me lo slop now , il would answer my purpose. The President. — (".erlainly. [The Tribunal adjourned for a short time.] Mr Phelps. — I am happy lo say. Sir, that I have nearly linislied wading Ihrongh the details of this evidence; and I ask the Tribunal lo remember Ibal, if il is wearying lo Ihem, il is much more so to me. I have only one further observalion lo make in taking leave of the tesliuiony of Ihesc sealers who claim more or less lo have seen seals out in the HeiiringSea al such distances as might indicalo. if thai statement were true, somelhing approaching to a commingliiig of the two herds. The lirsl is Ihal with the single exception of one man who says he shot some seals, or a seal, and lowered a boat and did not gel him, Ihere is not one, although their business in Ihal sea was catching seals and nolhing else, that lestities to having aMempted ever to have taken a seal or much less having ever taken a seal at anv such distance from Ihe Commander — 1953 — Islands or Pribilof Islands as would at all lend (o sliow llial llie seal he look was out of its ordinary niif^ralion route, or out of its ordinary |)laeo. Then you will have undouhledly noticed for yourselves in considering; liiis subjecl, tlial in all Hie inullitnde of people who upon better errands than tlial iiave been crossing; (hat Sea, — the passenger steamships, Ihe naval vessels ol' the two Countries, the Itcvenue Marine of the United Stales, — there is nobody, except lb(;se scalers, that oversaw iiny such si^lit as they saw ; nobody not in interest, nobody in respect of wiioin you can say thai the man is to be relied upon both as lo his intelligence and as to h; ciiaracter if he (estilies, — no such man, not one. It is given only !'.( these returned sealers swearing in the loose and vague and un- c(!rlain way, whicli we iiave no opportunity of replying lo, lo have seen any sucii Ihing. On the other hand, let us revert now hrielly lo Hie very conclusive evidence, much of it coming from Ihe Hrilish side in addition lo what the iJi'ilish Commissioners have said, showing tliat that cannot be true. In the Hrilish Counter Case, the '2nd Appendix, page 213, it appears that Hie Captains of Hie Canadian I'acKic Steamers, which were running reg- idarh acioss this roiilc, were insliucted to report fur-seals seen on their voyage. That voyage jiasscs within l.-l miles of the .Aleutians and across liiere they were requested lo report by the Hrilish Commissioners; and what do you get from Ihem? It is collected on pages 213 and 211 of this volume, and it begins : Mr \V. ('.. Van lloiiio, I'ri'sidcnl of llio (lanailiun P.icific Raihv.iy. kinilly inslnic- IimI the Caplaiiis cif llio mail slcaiiisliiiis uf lli(> " Kmprt'ss " line, ruiiniii;;- Ijclwrou Vancouver ami Japan, lo roiioit any fnr-scals observed iluriiifr llieir voyages. The reports <■!) far reeeived are ipiotiMl holow. .Now : Caplaiii Marshall, ol' the " Empress of India ' , reports that, on his last voyage onl j:ilh lo l"lii January I'allhongli only lo miles olV some ofihe islands (.Xleutian)^ no seals were seen, hut one was seen tm Ihe .lapaii coast. .\nd Captain .Marshall reports again in an extract from a letter on (he I'.lHi and20Hiof.May : \\V liavo again sein numerous seals l>elween latitudes ;W" and iti" north, and longitndi's I it)° and t(i!t° mist ; at times tliev were present in goodly numbers, hut generally oidy a fi •*■ were seen al a lime. They appeared to ho travelling in a north-westerly direction, hut that is, of course, very hard to determine, going al our spi-ed ; these si>als this passage have not heou seeing playing ahout, hut they did not look like sleeping ', and so on. Ca|)lain .Marshall reports again on bis outward voyage N" 6 : He saw any luimber of soals,[all fur-seals, latitude (O'it' north, longitude \',V to 1 to" west. ,lus( where they should have been in .April. It is April, May, and January he refers to; and here is one more from Captain .Marshall, the ,i — IflSi — October voynftc, No. 8, daled the 27lli of Sc|)loml)er; Ifl a. m. Passed some kcl|). Ohservod a seal. Now, ill rejily lo (he request to llioso {lenllemen to look out, (lial is wiiut you gel from ('.a|tlaiu Marslinll. Then Captaiu Lee rejiorts Ihiil on the lOth of May, in latitude ;W"20' north, hmgitude 1 i3°2()' east, he passed through a continuous shoal of si'als. That is over on the coast of .hipan. Captain liCe again reports thai he observed two seals on the ."itli of July in latitude W2.o' north, longilude I7I"H0' east, wiiich is very near the migration route to the Commander Islands. Then Mr I'iers, the Agent of llie 8teamsiiip Company who conducted tiiis lorrespondence writes on October the I7(h. No seals uraiiy kind liuviti); Ikjcii rcpdiloil siiici,' llio .Mil ol' .Xiijriisl, D' Dawson may lake il thai uow liavc hcoii dliscrvcil liy unr ships. Senator Morgan. — is liic line of that Sleamsliip route marked? Mr Phelps. — .Mr Lansing will ino lliey say Ihey saw any such seals? They went from the I'ribilof Is- lands lo Ihe Commander Islands and back, and siiow their navigation about and around. Ho Ihey furnish any evidence of that sort? Not a word. Then .Mr Maconn, whose lestimonv is a mere echo of the Report ofthe Urilish Commissioners, ami, ifit was nolwcillen by Ihe same hand thai wrote the Report of Ihe Itrilish Conunissioners, there is a greater similaiity of style than is oflen lo be observed between two eminent scholars, but, whoever wrote il, il is Ihe echo and re-stalemeni of the same proposition and Ihe sanu> evidence. — he travelled across I do — 1985 — not remember Iinw many limes, once each way, I believe; and wbal Hid ho discover? On bolli occasions, lie enconiileied sucii storms as lo |irevenl any observations beinj; made for seals beyond the 172 |»arail('l. Hut lie says on the '.)tli of Se|)tenil)er, about 2.')(l miles westward of St Paul a ^jood many seals were seen, not-withstandiiift the rouf,'li woalher. lie adds nothinf; by his report. A liindinft was cirecli'il on the linl (if Si^iiloinlicr ;il Nikiilski villa).'e, lii'liriiig Island. No lli'pn'siMilalivo of (lie Itiissian (liivtM'nnn'nl was Hkmi on thai ishind, hut I liad a lon^' interview with the ajront of Hit! Vw Company. Ili' lohl nn^ that aliout Ihi' iisnal numhor ol'skhis had hpi>n tuki'n, .'t-J,()0(l. t(i. (1(1(1 on each Ishind, and that he lii'licvcd there was no dtjci'caso in the nnniherol' seals on Itelnin^; Island, lh(iMj.'h Mr (Irehnitsky ilhn (eivernmcnl Snperlntendent of the Islands, then ahseiil) had told him that on (Copper Ishind a decrease had lieon noted. The llrsl sealinj.f schoners had henn seen ahotit the islands almod as soon as the seals had appeared, and had cnnlinin'd takin;.' seals Ihe whole snminer. I was inrornied hy Ihe agent that nuirh heller skins were taken Dn llelirini;- Island than on Copjier Island, those IVom the latter island avera,i.'ini.' Iioni (1 to S Ihs. only in weij-'ht. (Itlier facts loarin'd at this place will he nderred to nnder their proper headinj;s. From llchrin;; Ishind wo went to Karaginski Island, in lalitnde .'i!!", longitude liil'IIO' east. Cireat nninhers of hair-seals and young" sea-lions were seen in the vicinity of this island, hut no fiir-si'als. We were nnalile, however, on account of continued stoiiny weather, lo go wilhin ii miles of lie- island, tin the return trip to St Paul Island we .igain encountered such had weather thai no look out could he kept for seals. While the ship was laid to, hetween nomi and ;> p. ni. on Ihe !Mh of Sepleniher, many fur-seals were, however, seen swimming about in all directions. The ship's position al noon that day was latitude 5S°,as', longitude, \''°H' wt^sl, ahoul '21(1 miles from St Paul Island. .Now, Ihe .Vmericaii Ciiarts, .\"* -i and G, 1 shall have lo trouble yon lo rd'er again lo. They are allachcd lo the .\nierican (loiintcr Case, and yon will see at a f-lanceall that I want to show from those Charts; — what the cruiser of those United Stales' Vessels were n liie year 1892, iiow Ihoroii- i;lily the work was performed, and Ihe dill'erent coloured lines represent dillerenl vessels. There were seven v(!ssels eiif;aged in those cruises, they were instructed by tiie (loverninenl lomdiccidl seals; and yon will sec from this Cliart where llicy weni and nnIiuI lliey said; and this is useful to show how thoroiijtiily Ihti sea was palrolled. Senator Morgan. — This was CommandiM' Kvan's llecl? Mr Phelps. — Ves. Now if you lake Chart (5 from the same portfolio you will see what seals they encountered and wiiere. N'otiiinf;'can be added; you have seen bi^fore wiiore the ships went; the scienlilic ol'liccrs on iioard were sent for liie purpose ofmidving these observations, and there is liie result of these observations. If these scalers tell the truth wilb reference to Ibe seals Ihcy were in the ludiit of seeiii;; from day lo day how comes it lo pass these oflieei's of the Amcri<'an Navv found no seals exc.c|il where from their rejjuliu" habils and mif^ralion routes llioy oiif{ht to be found. Mow I refer also to the testimony of Captain Hooper, ll will be found in the Counter Case of the United Stales pajie 21G. Captain Hooper was — IflSfi — ono of llic Revomio Marine. Ilo liml loiip>r ox|tcrionrc in llial scii llinn any ollior ol'liccr wiio lins Icslilii'd. lie was llicrc a ^odd many yi-ars. in a j^rcal many vessels, anil his has heen taken I'rom pajje 21(1. Din'in^' tho (inio llic ('nnrin h;\* liiM'ii ('n),'af,'i;(l upon tlii' iiudiiislicd work ol' I lie A//inlrim vMvy'mj! (in invcsliffalicms in ipftaid In pcliiKic siNiliii^.', slio lias slcaninl 4,ii"2;t mill's, cari'vinf; out, as ni'iir as wind ami wfiathor wonlil permit, tin' plan inilii'aloil in Dcparlrni'nl inslriirlinns, lliat ol' ruiiiiiii^' lailial lines from the seal islanils coriespoiiilin^r In eaili point ol'llio eompass. These linos weri' cxtonieil lo a liislanet' ol' ■21)0 mill's oi until no srals wore seen. Tlir tiark of the vessel while pnisuin;,' tln^se inveslifratioiis, wilii llio position in wliieh srals woie taken or seen anil all ilata eolle tod peitainint; lliorelo will he I'onnil on the aciumpaiivint.' eliarl anil tabniated stateniont. The line rnn in a west liy north ilireclion was extended as indirateil on the chart in a westerly, sonth-wi'sterly, sonllierly and smith-eas- terly direelioii, riossiii).' the latilndo of tlie seal islands at a distance of alinut HOI) miles, and erossintr a liiii' eomiectiii).' the I'rihilol' and (^nmmander j:ionps of islands at ahoiit tlie same dislance from the foiim'ruroiip, nearly midway. Duriii- the nm of '.Oil miles from lal. HS-J-J' N,, lon^'. I77"i-r \V.. to lal. ,').V'38' N., lon^'. I71"2.H' \V., no seals were ohservud, although a carofnl look out for them was kepi at all limes. Niinierons seals liavintr heen fomiil a these lalitiides at a ilislanee of .100 miles, 1 infer that the western limit of the raiif:o of the I'rihiluf herd of seals is helwi two or three hundred miles from the islands and that tho herds from the I'lihilof and Commander ^'rmips of islands do not miii^;le liiil that hrtweeii llie limits of the I'arlhest ran^re of the two lierds there is a zone which is iinoiTU|iii'il hy seals exeeiil possihly a few stray individuals. Now this eliai'l only inilieales (he raiiial lines ami llie niinilicr of seals found. It refers (o llie voyage of two steamers only the Cnririn and tlie Itiish and shows Ihe lines, like a spider's web taken as just read from C.aplaiii Hooper's lesliniony, and Ihe nnnihor of seals Ihal were seen becomes very few as you ;;et Inwards Ihe middle dislance. Mow you will remember thai Colonel (irebnil/.ki is the iUissian Mili- tary Chief of liic Commander Islands, and I read from page 3()2 of Ihe Counter Case of the Iniled Stales. The lesliniony was taken on Ihe 2()lli November — H jleceinher — IS',»2. liesavs: I have heon residing;- on Iho Commandrr Islands and have directed all sealing oporations there for the last Ijfleen years and durin;; this wlnde period have heen absent from the island hut very liltle. I have carefully observed seal life, the condition of theronkories and the method of lakiiifr seals at all seasons and under all conditions with the object of kecpini,' the llnssian (lovernment thoioiijihly iuformed as to its sealing interests and the proper manai-'ement of the same. While I have never had the op|)orlnnily to examine the I'rihilof Island seals, yet 1 do not hesitate to express the opinion that thai herd and tho ("ommander Island herd are distinct and do not mingle at all. There are some natives on the islands who are familiar with both and who stale that llieie is a marked dilference in the aniin.als. liesidos, my studies as a naturalist enable me to slate thai it would be contrary to all reason to suppose that they mingle with one another. The Commander herd approaches very closely to the Holihen Island herd in winter, and yet it does nut mingle with it. Of this I am sure for I have charge of llobhen Island as well as of the Commander Islands and I know tho skins of the two herds to be dillerenl. The skin of the Commaiider seal is thicker, has coarser hair, is of a lighter color and weighs about -20 per cent more than a Ilobben skin of the same size. i i — 1!157 His wholly iiiiprdhiibii) thai llio snala of llin Comiiiiinijui' liord visit any laud (jUii'T than llic (',iiiiiiiiaTi(l(ir Islands, I htdiuvc I hey rn),'ard Ihi'si' as their Iidiih;, IhcSK islands IiiMii^r |iO(iiliaily ndapli'd In llioir n Is at \\\c pn iod (if Ininj-'in}; I'dith their yonii^.' and or liirnlitin. The fact thai lln' Itohlien Island herd slill frequents Hnhlieu Mand (o (he L'xehisi.ni of any other laud not wilhslandiu;; it has heen sid)- jncled there to the uluiost perseculiou shows to uiy mind conelusively that llio presence id' niuu will not prevent a seal lu'rd from rolnrnin}.'lo the same laud year after year even if isolated casus havo iceiirrod (I know noiu') in which, for various causes a few of tlie Cortimander Isl'.nd seals reached other shores, such exceptions would not disprove tin' ^.'eneral riih; ahnvc slaleil I ean readily understand that a i'emale which had hi'en wounded m the water mif;ht he stihjocl (s(>) to seek the nearest laud and there frivi' birth lo her pup. Senator Morgan. — \Mml is the dislaiicu belweeii tli(3 ('.uinmtuuler Isliiiiils unil Itohlteii islaiid? Sir Richard Webster. — II is ralliL-r more lliaii hclwecn llio C.omman- dci's and l*riliii(irs. Mr Phelps. — I should say il would be 800 or DftO miles from lookiug jil the ma|i. The iuif;ratioii route runs much nearer. Senator Morgan. — It is 700 miles between the Commanders and I'ribilols. Mr Phelps. — Ves, I also think il has been staled nl 800. Senator Morgan. — Ahoul o(|uidislant then I'rom each other. Mr Phelps. — Ves. .Now, in laking leave of this wearisome subject to which I have been perliaiis devoling much more time than il has been really worth, because as I remarked al the outset last i-'riday, if the ulmosl were true Ihat is now pretended ajjoiil the few scatlerinji- seals that find their way over lo the ('.(immander Islandsor /v'ce •■ w^and back a^ain from any of this evidence il does iiol touch Ihis case in a way lo ailecl any legal principle thai con- trols il. II is too small ; il is too scallering. If all llie seals thai resem- ble, in tli(! opinion of some oi' these furriers in ai Irong degree the seals of the other herd, were animals that had crossed in this way — if all llie seals llial these scattering sealers suppose that they had seen were I'lirseals, and were seen in any such places as some of Ihom speak (jf, never delinitely, wiiy il wtudd not be a fad thai would change any local rule on the slrenglli of which you could say, if Ibis fact were otherwise the law would be so, but belugas il is, the law is otherwise. lUil, as I said, I do not choose lo have Ihal conclusion if I can help il, iiecauso I think il ought lo be helped, thai we have betiu wiong in res- peel of any of these assertions, and in taking leave of it I was about to say what is the substance of the whole. I have, I believe referred lo every bil of evidence on both sides. I have not intended lo omil anything. If 1 have done so, il has been by oversight and inadvertence. W'lial is llie summing up of the whole.' 1 cannot say that there is no evidence lending lo sui'li intermingling; lliat would not be candid — it would not be true. There is jiisl this evidence — llic loose staleiiienl of some of these Loudon furriers thai, lo a small extent skins are found in the dill'erenl consignments which resemble each other, so that lliey would — I't.'iH — iiol liiive known, if llicx liail scimi llioni aiiywlicrt' else, oi-, us livi; wil- iifsscs say, iirc nii evidence IIk; otiiei' way. If this case had to he delei'mined on that question and on the evidence of I'lir- riers alone, it is inipossihie to read this evidence withoul seeing where the halance is. ,lusl as I have pointed out jiisl now, the halance in tosti- niiuiy in respect of Ihe presence of seals in Ihe Ocean is largely in favour of their nol heing found in the loealitv where some of those witnesses have allenipted lo place them. Then leaving that ground of soniewhal disputed testimony and refer- ring to Ihi! regular uiigrahu'v route which Ihe Mritisli Commissioners themselves \(MI will I'euKMuher say Ihal these seals follow, — referring to that (iulf Sti'oain, which hy its temperature and its food supply would certainly allracl thescids, and when il had attracted them, it would carry Ihem through llicir regular I'onte instead of inducing them lo turn round and head against Ihe stream and go the other way, — when yon timl the lestimony of all the ohservers who have leslitied in this case and that no- hody has ever delected ihe pre^iMice of one or the other, or the presen<'C of tlie actual skins in the catch, how is the suhjeet left? If this whole ease were lo turn lui the (piestion whether the seals lo any appreciahle extent, or to any .xtent nol purely accidental hui casiuil, — some st(um- driveu oi' weak s il, oi' wanderer gelling out of his course, how would this fact stand ur i Ihe evidence — upon the lair weight and halance of the evidence, eai lly and fairly treated? .Now I shall n r hriefly lo anolhor qncsli(ui which has been made hy the liritisli lloi lissioners hut which has not been observed n|ton hy my learned friend on the other side, and therefore, I think I have the right lo iidcr that ley do not depend upon il ami that Ihey agree whilh me in thinking liiere is nothing in it hut il, has nol heen specially with- drawn, and the evidence is there and it may he useful and may throw light on some other things hrietly lo consider it, and I shall do it, therefore, brietly. The IJrilish Commissioners suggest in their Keporl another I!t,'i!t — llioory tliiil is |irclly m-w lo llu; nmhIiI. — niiu of llic mmn'roiis (linco- vfi'ios lliat tlicy liavo hi'cii ahli^ lo iiiiiki- in lliis case; and thai is that llie seals liav(! a Kiinl of winler lialiilat, as llicy call it, over on tlio C.olum- Itian coasl o|)|Hisilt> to IIm> Itritisli Possessions. N()n>, what is that sng- ^'usiioii, and nnIiiiI pioddoi's lliat do? 11' il \mm-i> triit>, N\lial is llu> iisu of it? It is anotlici' |m ( of llif ini'ssurc tlicy felt tlicnisolvfs undur of esra|)in(; llu; ov(>i'wlii>hnin^' fails lliat allarli lliosu seals lo the Priliilof Islands and llu- American leiTitory. Thai is all that there is of this inlcrniin^'lin^ llicory. Now, N>lial docs that depend on? II is that the home of till! seals on the I'rihilof Islands may he lo some evient ohviated, or balanced, or oll'sel, or whatever Hie word is, showing that llioy are there in winter. For that Iheory, which is nothing hut a theory and a conjecture, there is not one word of fonndalion. When yon henin with the he};innin};, with its ^^enesis. in this Keport and I'ead what they have lo say in support of il and then contrast it with tin* evidence in the case il perishes so ullerly lliat I am not surprised that my learned friends do not conceive llieri" is anylliin;; in it, and, therefore, I can deal willi it very hrielly. At section 2(), liiey aniioniici! this as t\ fad, — not as a llicory, nol as a su^'};estion. bul as a i'acl. Till' I'lir-scal ol' llie Ninlli i'acilii' (Iceaii is an animal in lis naliii'i' c^scnlially lMla);ic, wliitli, iluriiif; tliu f.'i'' a;r |)aii of each year, has iiu iirc.ision lo sunk llii' laiiil. anil very rarely does so. Thai is llieir discovery; a warm blooded animal, Ihal can neither propajiate in the sea; nor be born lliere; nor even f;o into llie water for sevei'al weeks or nioiilhs. II remains there alioiil 7 monllis in the year, on the imdispiiled fads, we have liial before us, and yi'l Iliey say : Till! Ini-si'al 1 , liii' Nmlli I'arillc Orean is an animal in its nutnie essonlially |i('iaj;ir, wliiiii, ilmiii!; llie ^iiniIit pari ol' caili year, lias no oirar-ion lo seek liio lainl, and very laiely ilot's so. " h>sseiiliaily pelap;ic " under the eircumslances thai it would perish if it could nol f^i.'t access Id Hie land I l'o|- some pnition ol' 111!' year. liowi;\er. il nalnrally resorts lo cerlaiii liltoial lii'oi'ilinf,' plai'os, when- Hie yoimnare lirdii^ilil I'orlli and snrkled mi land. II is f,'re- }:arioiis ill lialiil.and. Ihonfili seldom found in diilined schools or compact liodiesal spa. roiifrrnjiales in lap;.'0 niimbois al llie lirecilinj,' places. Tliroii},dioiil the hroe- dinii season, llie adnlls of hotli sexes — if not cnlirely. al Icasl. for very conside- rable periods — abstain from food, but diirini; Hie remainder of llie year Hie seals are notably inllaenced in tlieir iiii'veini'iils by lliose of Hie biod-llslies upon '>hich they snbsisl. Thai is to say, that more or less of llieni turn llieir backs on the cur- rent of food lislies, and go in the other direction lo the point thai we have been discussin};. Siidi moveinenls are, however, snbordinale to a more );eneral one of migration, ill conformily with which the fur-seals of Hie .NoiHi I'aeiiic travel northward to Iho breeding islands in Iho spriiifj ami return to the soiitlnvard in the antnniii, followin),' two main linos, one of which approximates to Hie wcsturii 'roast of .North America, — I9ti0 — wliilp the oilier skirts Iho Asiatic coast. Those animals which pursue the lirst-inen- tioned iiiigralion-roulc, for llii' inost part breed upon the Pribilol' Islands in sunnner. Wlierc else is lliere any evidence liial a Inin^ seal was produced except llicre, or on the Itobben or luirile Islmids, or the ('.ommnndcr Islands? And spend the winter in that part of the ocean adjacent to, or lying oil', the coast of British C(dumbia. Then : The fur-seal of the North Pacilic may thus I)o said, in each case, to have two ha- bitats or homes hytween which it migrates, both ei|ually necessary to its existence under present circumstances, the one frequented in summer, the other during the winter. Tiiis is not recorded as a suggestion. It is recorded as a lad hy these genllemcn, wlio, according to my learned i'riends on the other side, have been so scrupulous, so conscientious, and careful not to overstate anything unless it was something that made against them. This recurs at other parts of this report. For instance in section 123 it is said. Thero are also rights dependent on local position, such as those of the (iovern- meiits possessing the breeding islands, and thus controlling the terri'orial waters in or adjai'enl to wliicli the seals spend the winter half of tlie year. Then, The rights in this eoiiuection, which How from the possi'ssion of the breeding islands, are wi'll known and giMierally acknowledged, but those of a similar natu'"e, resulting from the situation of the winter home of the seal, along the coast of liri- tish Columbia, liave not till lately been fully appreciated. Then at section 171. Hespectiug the migrations and range (d' till' fur-seal in the North Pacilic, while numerous scattered references are to be found, these aii' lor Ihe most part fragmen- tary and vague, and no connected account of the migrations oi' migration routes, based upon facts, have horebd'ore been given. That is to say, this theory, as I said it was, is absolutely new. The add' ional information gained in the ciiurse of special in(|uiries on this subject now, however, not only enables the migrations of the fur-seal to be clearly lollowed. but appears dcliiiitively to set at rest Ihe ipiestion which has l)een consis- tently asked by sealers from the earliest times of the Itussiun occuiiation as to the winter habitat of the fur-seal. Then, Written itupiiries on this jind other points were addressed to the district Indian agents along the coast ol itrilisb Cglundjia, and the traders, Aleuts, Indians, and others interested or engaged in seal-hunting, or resident on the West Coast, have been conversed with and (piestioned. Then section \Hi\ we have something more. Krom Iho l'ore;,'oing notes, embodying the result of careful ini|uiries personally — 19fil — inadfi at the localities referred to along a stretch of 2,000 miles of the west coast of '!iO Continent, it is evident that in thai part of tiie ocoaii adjacent t(> the entire length of the coast of British Columbia, as well as within the main openings and inlets of that coast, the fur-seal is a permanent winter resident, arriving soon after it is known to have passed southward through the Aleutian chain, and remaining till a general movement to the north begins in the early spring, and, though the movement last referred to acquires greater force and regularity towards its close, no lime occurs between the arrival of the seals from the north and the return migra- tion, at which they are not found olf this coast. There is more or less of this langiiaf!;e us far as section 196 wliieli is to tiie same clfecl. I need not read it all. They have undertaken to set up, not as a possibility, not us a tiieory, not as a conjecture, not as aiiytliing known before, that Ihis herd of seals has a winter home, so that the argument derived from llieir allaehment to the Pribilof Islands may be in some way ooiiiiler-balanced l)y their winter attachment to the other. Without reading anollier word, I might conlidenlly enquire whether in view of everything that has been said and read and heard on liiis case, there appears to be any foundation for sucii a statement as that. Is it pertinent tlia' seals ever went ashore in that neighbourhood? Is it questioned that the route of the seals takes them down opposite to San Francisco and llienco up to a point supported by overwhelming testimony and not contradicted by any body. What sort of consistence is llicre in Ihese two Iheories — the one I have been discussing by wiiicli il is supposed the seal makes off to the west in order to make acquainlance wilh tiie Commander seals wiien they come down through the Aleutian passes in tiie winter and then go west, or do they go both ways? — which of those theories is true? Now wluit are the statements — they cannot be dignified by liie ncme of evidence — they are not evidence; they are loose vague statements which are given piecemeal — a line from wiiat somebody writes and a line from wiiat so- mebody says — not even the context — and statements that are said to depend on the testimony of (he inbabilaiits and what the Indians say, hearsay which does rsol come I'o lo llic (iigiiily of hearsay. It would be hearsay evidence wliea a man slates that lie heard such a person at such a time and at such a place say so-and-so and so-and-so — that would jje hearsay evidence wliicli is utterly inadmissible unless the person was a party about whom the evidence was given, but where he is not a |)arty and where the whole of his stalemeni is not given, it is loose vague talk given lo the edect that seals are seen in the winter, and comes much to the same point as that of the sealers who say they saw them in the wide ocean. It is loose statements saying they are tliere in llie winter. They are there in the winter when they start to make the round that is shown by the blue colour. That is pla'n enough ; nobody denies that, but it is at- tempted to be draw out of lliat that, inslead of going by that route they make across (he sea and establish themselves for the winter on (he Hrilish coast for no conceivable reason ' suppose, (lia( can be imagined except to get under the possession of (he Hrilish tlag. — 196-2 — Senator Morgan. — ho you Hiink il is eslahlisliod in tliis case that the old male seals follow Ijial circuit round? Mr Phelps. — I am about lo mention that. It is established to the contrary; they never do. .Mr F.ansinj!; will show it you on the map. It is the black line. They do not '^o far enough south lo gel iuio their win- ter habitat, the consequence is that if there was a winter habitat il would be an extraordinary one into wiiicli the old male seals never ^o and arc never seen. .About that there is no dis|)ute. The President. — Only the old males. Senator Morgan. — They would probably find water warm enough for the texture of their furs ai\d covering in the northern edge of the ocean current which would prevent the necessity of making those great wand- erings to the south. Mr Phelps. — 1 suppose so, tiiat is my conclusion, bul whatever the cause is, the fact is not the subject of any contradiclion iis lo this winter habitat : what are called the old bulls, from the breeding places, do not go there at all. Now their i)rincipal witness is a man thai tigures from lime lo lime in this report, and is alluded to quite a number of limes and it may be as well to start an inquiry about liim. Senator Morgan. — 1 believe llie pells of those bulls you speak of are never carried lo niaikel. Mr Phelps. — I should think iiol. Senator Morgan. — There is no evidence of it? Mr Phelps. — There is no evidence of il: and there could nol be unless Ihey were killed at sea, bul we hiive evidence that they are nol kil- led on the Islands. .Now we have a gentleman of the name of .ludge Swan: and any man who has lived much in America knows Ihal when a man has the lille ot Judge il is principally because he is nol a judge. Senator Morgan. — Vou are not speaking of the .luslices, of course. Mr Phelps. — .No. but out ol several hiuidred thousands of Judges which we liave in the I'nited Stales, we have very few silting on the Hench. Tliev are wlial is ealled, in military parlance, hi'evet jinlges, or militia judges: and the |{rilish Commissioners are polite enough if Ihey meet a man, li>give him a title. (',onse(|uenlly, we have i'rolessor Klliott. lie was appointed a professor by llie Mrilish Commissioners, and we have Judge Swan, and he was put on Hie Ueuch hv the Ifrilish Commissioners. Sir Charles Russell. — You tall him Judge Swan yourselves. Mr Phelps. — Well, we are nearly all judges wlio are not generals, in our country, and I do not mean to say that you have llie monopoly in the mailer of courtesy lilies. I am only adverting lo the fad that Judge Swan's judicial diili(?s did nol take up so much of his time as lo prevent him making discoveries about the fur-seal thai nobody else ever did make. Well, Judge Swan appears in the third liritish .Appendix, page lUi, I' — I!>tl3 — and it may be an amusing inlorliido lo lliis case lo lollow iiim up a liltle. There is a letter of James (i. Swan, Assistant Collector, I'ort Townsend, Wasiiington. I'ort Townsend is a city with a ("-liamher of Commerce and deputy colleHor. We have tiiosc everywhere. Collectors are extremely numerous, and their titles are generally genuine, hut he furnishes Ihe United Slales' Covernnient, through Senator Dodd, wilh a communication on the subject of fur-seals, which does not throw so much light on Ihe fur-seal, because his facts are facts that have been pretty Ihoroughly dis- proved in this case, and nobody claims them (o he true; but they throw considerable light on his valu(> as an observer, as well as upon his mo- tives, lie seems to be the agent of the Sealing Association, which cons- titutes pretty much all the business that exists in I'ortTownsend, and to be violent in his objuigalions of the tremendous monopoly enjoyed by Ihe Company, which, as the lessee of the United Stales, occupies Ihe I'ribilot Islands — that is a subject on which he is very eloquent indeed. Kvi;r since llii' Iniisi! of llip I'riliilor Islamls In thi' .Maska CdiiiiiuMrial (Vnniiaiiy, thai powerful ninriopnly lias [KTslsli'iitly (k'rrivcd llio (ioiijrii'ss oltlip IJriitoil Slales ami lliL' .\iiieric;aii pc(5plt' liy ai'ioi-'aiilly assi-iiin^' Ihal all llic lin seals of llii' .Norlli I'aeilii; (leeaii eoiifjregale uii the Islamls of SI. Paul anil SI. (ioorgo, ami thai tlie iuiliscriuiiuale sliiuf^hler of llinse seals would soon exlorniinatc the raci;. The lalleri)arl of this assertion is true, Iml Ihe lirst, I assert, is a physical impossibility. The seals of the Norlh Pacific, in coinilless myriads, could not, hy any process of Ihi'ir own, lind ro(Uu on Ihose two coniparalively insi,i;nilieanl isliunls. and I am prepai'ed lo piove lhal Ihi; s()Ulhi;rn seals, roui Ihe (lulf nf 'I'ehuunlciiec and Uulf of Califorina, which come north every serson, dill'er from lln,' seals o[ the Prihilof Islands, and never " haul out "on (hat j-'ronp. The iudiscriininale slau^'hter of fin seals in early days on thi^ Island of Massahiero, cm the coast id' Chile, and on Ihe San Heniln Islands l,ower Califnrnia, drove the seals away from Ihose onco fa- mnus I'ookeries, and Ihey sei'in Id have acipiired new hahils. A [laid writer of the rnmpany, lleniy W. r.lliotl. in an idherwisi: exeidleni momiirraph nn tle^ lin seal islands cd' .\lasUa, holdly assi'ris lhal the seals of iln' Nnrlh Pacillc all couLrregate nn Ihe Pi'ihilof Islands. He further asserls that Ihose seals have Iheir pups on land, and that if a pup is thrown into the water it caniinl swim, hut will siidv lil«> a stone, and lakes iir; to task for axserliufr that Ihe [lups of the si'als taken at Cape I'lallery can swim as soon as horn and even when taken alive from the mother's wonih. Vou see Professor Klliot aiul .ludgc Swan have not been forliinale enough lo agree either as to the lucls Ihey hiive discovered, or in respect lo each other's veracity and Irnllil'ulness. It is unforliiiiale for the world always when great minds come in collision : In ISSII I was inslrucled hy Prot'essiu' Itaird In invesli;;ale Ihe liahits id' Ihe lin seals and lo make a llepcu't thereon, which llepnrl may he found in the Hnllelin of Ihe United Slides' Fish Ccunmission (vol. Ill, l.ss:l. p. -JOIi. In thai Peporl I have shiiwii hy Ihiileen witnesses, some of lliem (Invernme it ofticials, lliat the lin si'als id't^ape I'lallery do have their pups in the water, mi the kelp and at (dh"r places I, I yet discnvered. anil lliat the pups swim as soon as horn ; this evidence as a;.'aiiist Mr Klliidi's uiisup|ini ted, dogmatic assertion that Ihe pups will sink liki' a stone. I helieve that .Mr. lOlliolt is correct so tar as the seals ot Ihe I'riliihd Islands are ccineiM'iicd. and 1 know th.it I am correct so far as regards the seaN nf Cape I'lutlery, and, helievini.' that holh of \is are ciurecl, it proves iiiconteslaldy thaltho seals which come from the south to Cape Tlaltery dill'er in their hahils from those of lteliriiii.''s Sea. US — 19(il — lie lias another herd thai wo licur ol' from no oilier wilness, observer, };iii(lc philosopher or friend, thai j;i)os np tliere lo Cape Flallcry ind lias the peculiarily of iiaviiiK liieir younf,' born in Ihe water and ollici- pccii- larilies, and he has proved that by many witnesses besides his own obser- vation. To begin with if in this farrago of utter absnrdily there is any grain of Iriilli — wo have got rid of his evidence on the subjeet of the wniil of habitat as soon as he begins because lie is talking about a diffe- reiu herd of seals — an imaginary herd of seals that have their home there beeause they have no occasion lo go ashore and probably never do goaslior(> and \\e are no! much concerned with those because we claim no title lo that herd. Then he goes on and makes a few guarded remarks on the subject of this (".(uiipany of which he says Mr Klliolt was the Agent. Thai is Iriie undoubtedly, lie says wilh iny learned friends this is an aulliorily on their side which they have not cited, and I have given them the henelit of it : Those casii rii lislii'imi'ii, kiiowint;- tlio value of the rookcriijs, arc tlcsiiuiis tliiil till' liuv ppdli'ctiii^ till! seals (III Ihe I'l'lhilof Islands, as well as llio [n'ovisiuiis cil' the Iciiso lo the Alaska ('iiiiiiiiorcial Comiiaiiy, sIicmiM lio riiiidly onrnireil. Itiil they i.lo iiol believe that the leiiii '• ailjaceiil waters " naiiieil in that lease ever meant or was iiilendeil lo mean all the waters of the Ninlh I'ai-ilic Ueeaii. Tlioy believe thai they, as Aiiieriean eili/.eiis, have a li^'hl lo lisli or luiiil in Ihe Aiiieii- can walei's of Hehi'inij's Sea milside of :l iiautieal mile-; lYoni any inland or Ihe mainland of Alaska. They hcdieve that William I'. Seward did not [inrehase Alaska lor Ihe .\laska Coinmeivial Coinpany, lint I'nr the whole iialion. These lishennen Iroiii Ni'w JMiiilaiid ask as a ri^lil Ihal llvey ho iieriiiilted In pursue their hniiouralde hnsiness in Ihe Anioriean walers nl' Ihe Nmlh Pacilie. ItcdiriiiL;- Sea. and the Arrtii' wilhonl lioiiii:' Ireated as criminals and hnnled down and seized and imprisoned hy Ihe piralical Ilovenue coltois of the I'liited States, at the dietalioii and lor the solo heiielil ol' the Alaska Coiiiiiiorcial Company. These lishennen, Anil so forth. II is lime Ihal Ihe farce played hy Ihe Alaska (^.oniniereial (lonipany was ended, and Ihal Ihe sorry si^ht of Ameiican rovenne culters linnlins down llioir own citi- zens for Ihe henelit of thai hui;i' monopoly slionlil for ever cease. And so forlli, to Hie some cIVecl. Well, l»r Dawson, one of Ihe Hri- lisli CiHiiiiiissionners (Ui page 'i.'il. (|iiiiles from .iudge Swan and sa\s his slatemenis may be received wilh respect, and .judge Swan says liiis : The fad that lliey illn' lur-sealsj do hi'ar pups in the; open oeean olf I'uea Slrait is well eslahlishoil hy Ihe evidence of everyoiu^ of Ihe sealiiiff captains and Indians and his own personal ohsei>,iiiiui. Dr I'ower says the fads do not admit of dis- pute. II seems as preposterous lo my niiiid lo suppose thai all Ihe fur-seals j;o to the I'lihilof Islands as lo suppose thai all Ihe salmon i;i'l to the riidiimhia or to tin' l''razer liivor or lo Ihe Yukon. 'I'licn in the same bo.dv. secmid part, page 71, — I shall not detain von wilh many extracts — there is soiiielbiiig a little further from this gentk.nau. They ([uole lirst the paragraph I have already read with res- pect to Professor Itaird, asking him lo make a report. — lOlili — On IIk! Itilh Novcmbor, I SSI), I iccimvimI at Nculi Hay a li'tliT t'nini PrnlVssor n. liidwii (ioddi', (lalpil Wasliiiif^ldii, '.'iUli (tcldhcr, ISSO, in wliicli Iki says : " Your Itcporl (HI hir-si'al lisliery is at liaiid, and is ol 'prcal iinimilanrc lo us. I am very nundi surprised at llie exlcnt of thi' l)iisinuss in your dishicl. " This Iteporl was atla( iii'd in a iiiosi virulent manner by Mr lliMiry \V. KlliotI, who, liiie myself, had lieiMi einph>ye(l hy llie Smithsonian Inslilulion In make invesli^rationsoM tin! iial)ils (d Ihe fur-seids. Mr Kllint', in Ids llepovl on llie seals otlhe Prihilnl' Islands, says Ilie jnips (d Ihe liii'-seal camiol swim, hul will sink like a slone if lhir)wn inio llio water. I showed that Ihe pups (jftlie I'ur-seal at ("-ape I'laltery do swim as soon as horn, and adduc'ed proof to show that in this respect lliu seals of Cape Flattery (tiller Irom those (d Hehrin^'s Sea. This stalcmentof mine was in direct opposition til the statements id' Mr Klliidl, and eonslanlly reiterated hy Ihe Alaska (Inninierrial Company fur the past Iweidy years, that all the seals (dihe North I'acilic iru to liidu'iufi's Si'a, and (■ijnf;ref;al(! [irineipally mi the I'rihilof Islands. The remarks (d'.Mr Klliott, whi( h eaii h(! fiinnd in " A Moriiif;ra[di of the Seal Islands id Alaska", a special Bulletin .No. ITli of IIk; Uniled Slates' I'ish C.onmiission, ISS-J, |i. llKl, were so personnally offensiv(' to nn^ thai I remonstrated with I'rnfossor Haird for allowinfi the olijectinnable parajiraph to he pnldished, and hy his reipiesi I pre|iare(l ani>th(!r paper on the fur-seal, which was piihlished in the Hidlelin of Ihe United States I'ish Conimissiiiu, ISS:), vol. Ill, pp, il)l to 21)7, in which I proved hy various witnesses, liovernmeiil ofticers, nuistei's of soalin.y-vessids, white trader's and Indians thai I was correct in my assertions contained in my lli'port of ISSO above referred to. These Heporls of mine, although published hy the tMiverniuenl, seem for some reason lo be systematically kept out of si^'ht whiMievor information ref;arding seals and the I'lir-seal llsbery is desired hy Members of Ccmpress. The arf,'nnienls and asserlions of Hie .Maska Commercial Company thai Ihe fur- seals all ^o to the IM'ihilof Islands, and would be eNtiu'ininated If that Company did not have tin! cai'e and proteclioii of Ibeiii, would easily he disproved if bolli sides of Ihe arsumenl could bi! Ii(!ard and (be real facts made known. I wish to make no chai'fjo against the .Maska Commercial Company, fhev are a commni'cial orjianization, arid they follow out their Iruo instincts to maki! all they can out of their very prolitalde lease. They arc only repeating;' Ihe policy of the Hudson's llay-Compauy, wliieli for nnu'e tliaii HID years deceived Hie lirilisb I'arlia- meiil by the same arf.'niuenls now \\:itii\ tiy Ihe .Maska Conimeicial Coiiipaiiy. .\ii(l so loiili... .\ltlioiiL;li my lleporl mi the fur-seals of Cape I'laltery in ISSI) was published by the (ioveriuiicnt in llu! Fisheries JAliibil of Hie 'I'euth Census, ami -iieeriiiiily erili- ci/.ed by Klliott, as alluded to, 1 have been niiable to pi'ociiro a sini.'le copy, alllimii;h I have made dilipent search iu all Hie volumes of the Tenth Census Iteporl. In like manner has Conj;ress and the coiintry 1 ri systematically kept in dark- ness ref;ardi)if,' Hie tiir-scal IMieries In lielirlii,t;'s Sea, foi' those wlio have bad the Information to impart have had an inli>rest directly opposed to impaitinj.' II. It is couslantl\ asserted In WashiiiLiton tliat Ihe indiscriminate slaiii;hter of seals will exterminate them, and eases are cited of Hie Islands of Massafuero, l.obo^, and others on the Pacific coast, where the slan,i;liter hy crews of vessels from New London, Connecticut, and other New Kiifjland ports has cnlii'cly exterminated the fur-seals at thosi; islands and at (Jape Horn. I assume ibat fur-seals can no )nore ho exterminated than herrini;' or codlisb. They may be driven olf from a rookeiy, but they are not externiinated; and, In prool of my assertion, I I'espi'clfiilly ask per- mission to lile the sworn statemeiils ol lUcbard Dupliis relative to the flll'-seals of Cape Horn, and of falward Thomas lilgf^s relative to ttie fur-seals of the Falkland Islands, which I have respectively marked " ICxhihils Nos -I and .'t. ' The slate- imnils show that the fur-seals have not been oxtermiualed at those places, hnl are taken in considerable numbers e\cry season, anil altliou):li at one time were almost driven entirely away, are now riduriiin.n to their former haunts. — I!»titi — Now il yon will pardon inc one oilier reference to llie lileraUire wliieli this Jiidf^e Swan has conimilted to this case I will leave thai subject. This gentleman is referred to conslanlly as an authority for stalemenl which are found nllerly disproved by the other evidence in the case and most of which is given np. These arc extracts from lellcrs of the Itrilish Commissioners; il Jjegins on pages 171, 172, 17:5, and 171 towards the close, page I7i, — 1 must not read Ihe other, it would be interesting if we had nothing lo do but amusement, — I am aimisod with roadiiif,' llio remarks of corrospoiuli'iils (if llii' caslcrii prnss about seals. Tlioy only know what Ihey havi; seen ami hoeii lold on the rookeries, hut of Iho inifrralory hahits of seals they know nothing' and car li'ss. 1 have always ronlendod, and still hold my opinion, that Ihe seals are not in one ;:roat band, but in eonnlless herds, like Hocks of wild geese or the bunds of bull'alo. (Icese do not all lly lo the Artie, as was once supposed, nor did the Imllalo of Texas go north lo the! Saskalchewan in the siinmier, or Ihe herds of Winnipeg visit Texas in Ihe winter. .Ml Ihe hands of fur-seals in the North I'acilie do nol go lo Ihe Prihilof Islands, and there arc thonsands which do not visit lichiing Sea at all. Hut these writers, who assume to know all the facts, ncvei' discuss this (ineslion. Where do Ihe s(>als go when Ihey leave Rehring Sea? If the killing of Inr-seals is prohibited mi i/n- Prihihif hlands dnriTig the bree- ding season (here will he no fear of extermination, 'that butchery is dirving off Ihe seals mori! than the so-c.iUed poachitig. 1 inclose an ailicle from the" Seattle Post Intelligencer" of the ,"ilh on fur-seals, wrillen by mys(df and then follows an .\rlicle of the same kind from which I will only road an cxlract or two lo show Hie character of lliis gcnlleman's explorations. Speaking of Hie seals that go north he says : Th(i s(>als begin lo make llieir appearance in Ihe region about Cape Flattery in the hillcr pari of Deccml.i'r or the lirsl of ,lanuarv, varving with difl'erent seasons. .\ii(l yd Iliis is Hie witness to prove in another place Ihey liiivc a wirilcr luihilal over lliere: When easterly winds prevail with much snow Ihey keep well oil' shore, and do mil make Iheir appearance in great nnmbers hi'for(> the middle id' February or the lirsl of March. Last winler was very mild, with hut Utile snow, bill tin; prevailing winds, which were south and south-west were excci'dingly violent, prevenlings(>a- ling-schooners from doing much hunting. The mildness of leniperalure, however, with the direction of the prevailing winds, drove Ihe seals Inward the coast in incre- dible numbers. They gradually work up the coast lowaids Oueen Charlolle Island, when the larger poilion of Ihe herds move along Ihe .Maskan coast loward llniinak I'ass and other western openings into Hebring Sea. A portion of the seals, how- ever pass inio Dixon's Entrance, north of (jueen riiarlollc Island, and into Ih-ciss Sound and (look's Inlet, and do not go toDchring Sea, bul have llicir young on thc> innumerable islands, (lords, and hays in Soullu'rn Alaska and Dritish Columbia. These seals are seen in these waters all summer, at the same lime as the brei'ding on the rookeries of the I'ribilol Islands, and are killinl by Indians and the skins sold to di.'alers. Then there is a reference to a writer in the London " Times ", and the style ol that writer shows that the writer of thai letter in the Londoi» — I9ti7 — ■' Timos " is most |)rol)al)ly .liidj^e Jaincs G. Swan, and lie contributes iinofiier fact flial will he new to us : — II is cnit^l mill unspiirtsiiiiinliko. Tho aniinals have iiu cliancc fur tlioir lives, hilt are slaiighli'icd like slii'e|) in Ihe sliaiiihles. A poi'liun of the herd is separated IVurn the main hudy hy a party nl' tneii armed with cliihs. — and it describes the driving. These slaii^'hter.s are carried on until the nnnd)cr of skins required are secured, t.alteiiy the seals seem to have an instinct that there is somethiiif.' wroiif;, as the squads driven inio the sand-hills never return, only Ihe stench from the slaughter cominj; down lo the heacli when the land breeze lilows. Tli(;se arc the ones the virility of which is destroyed with reference to their ^oiiif? back lo the water after having been driven, but you see Ihoy do not come hack at all, they giv(! u|) the ghost. They are satisfied tiiat there is something wrong, and thereupon lliey give u|) the atteiii|)l to live any longer. Then there are some other fads : Of the niigiatory haliils of fur-seals hut little has liillierto been iiiadi- known, for Ihose who have had Ihe infornialion lo give have had an interest directly oppo- sed lo imparting the truth. Hence Ihe fallacious assertion has been made and stoutly mainlained by Ihe monopolists and their mendacious hirelings that all the fill-seals of Ihe North I'acilic Ocean congregated on the rookeries of the islands of till' I'rihilof groii[i, and if they an' allowed lobe killtMl by the poachers and pirali's, wiioiii Ihe general puhlie know as honest, industrious, energetic fisbf'rmeii and hiiiilers — the fur-seal will beeoine exiincl. and Miss I'loca Mc Flimsey will have nothing to wear, poor girl I Hut the scientific invest igal ions of the United Stales' anil Uoyal Coininissions, and particularly the latter, who have made the migrations of Ihe seals n spi'cial sliidy.will show that the habits of all migratory animals, both birds and beasts, are governed by natural laws. And he goes on with a long argument in favour of ]ielagic sealing, and all killing on the Islands ought lo be stopped, and this monopoly come to an end, and the business of killing seals in the sea, which cannot pos- sibly exterminate litem, ought to be encouraged. Now , one more reference, and I will leave that subject. General Fos- ter, stimulated by this literature, I sujjpose, and finding out how much more this gentleman knew than anybody else on the subject of seal-life took his depositions; and we have that in Ihc United State's Counter Case atpagelTC). This is the last deliverance of .liidge Swan. and. there- fore, I suppose it embodies most of bis mature views. We see, among other things where be gets his judicial litle. He says he is a notary public, and his occupation is that of a lawyer, and at jiage U'.tO he says in ISKO at the reipiest of the late Professor Haird he made a study, and made a report, and now he says : The observations upon which these reports are based were mostly continedto the immediate vicinity of tlape Fallery? Thai is near the Cily of I'orl Townsend. Senator Morgan. — It is at the entrance lo the Straits of Fuca. — l!l(iS — Mr Phelps. — Those ol)ssrviilions iiboiil IIk; oxlmordiiiary inifiralory (•liiiri\cl(;r of llio liir-sciil, as to wlicre llicy I'oiiii^ fniiii and wliero llicy went lo. were ronliiied lo Cape Fallory. 1 liiid III tliiil limi' no opporliiiiily lor L'xicndcd iMiqiiiiy as 111 llio ix^liiijic lialiils or Ihc animals. Tli(i iialural liislory of Hip seal licid of tlio I'rihilol' Islands, wlieii upon or In tin' inimcdialo virinily of llir land, liad been niinnlidy, and I liavo no doulil aci iiialcly, di'si rilied by II. W. Klliol) in Ids niono^'rapli pid)!ishod in isT.'i. TliiTc had bi'iML np lo Ibal dale no sorics ol' obsoivalions noi' ^iood cvidDUCu on wbich to base tbc hy|iolliosis lliiil IIh; I'ribilol' berd and Ibu largi' mass cd' si'als an- nually sui'ii on Iho laliUiilu of Capo I'attcry were idcniical. On tin' conlrary llicic sCLMUPd to I);! many cvidi'ncus thai sonn^ ollici' rookoiii's Ibat than Iboso ollbi' I'ri- bibd' Islands were, locatod al sonin point on Ibc Oinnon Wasbinvlon, or Urilish Co- linidiia (.'oast. Yoini^' seals wi'io occasionally I'onnd by the Indians npon or near Ibc bourhi's, iinil prcfiiiani Icniales wrro (dlcn caplnred by llicni so heavy with pnp, and apparmtly so ni'ar Ihcir full li'i'm of prej^nani'y, as lo warrant the bidiid' Ibat Ibc youni;- iiiusl ho cilbor born in Iho walcr. upcjn bnni-'ics of kolp, or upon Iho rocks and b(^achos on or near tho coasl. Youn^' seals were ollon hrouj.;ht lo llu! Indian villajios. and so lorlli. Th.-ii : In recent years it has been demonstratod by Iho larn'c catches oblainod oll'Ihe coasl by p(da^,'ic hunters, and by the lestiniony of a great nundjcr of peoplo whosi' altenli(ui has been direcled lo Ibc matter, thai the herd of seals, id' which we saw only a very lindled portion from the Noah Hay station, is a very largo one; and it now seonis beyond a doubt Ibal the ccunparalivoly few authentic cases in which imps wi'ro seen n[ion or in Ibi' vicinity (d' the coasl were anomalous, tor il is rea- sonable to suppose Ibal in so hnyo a mass of projiuant females an occasiijual (mo Would he premalurely oveilakeu whitb Ibi! pains of parturition, and Ibat tbo olVspriui;' bi'ou.ubl foiili. and so on. Then I <^o lo llic hoUoin oi' Ihe pa^e. care lorcad. \ Kood deal ol' IliissliiU'l (hiiiol In I be liuht id' investii;atioii and researidi bad since tin' dale of my observations the nios! Ill \vbir ol'wiliicsscs liave Ix'cii exami- ned, |)nl npon wliicli nolliiiig lias heeri said liy my learned friends, llionjj;li Ihey nlhidelo il ns a fad in the Case, and (!\idenlly rely npon this evi- dence, and llial is, llie iniprefinalion ol'lhesc seals has taken place lo some small extent, or rather may have taken place to some small exlenl in the water. Now to save time and avoid runniiif; thronjjh evidence of that sort, I have put some ohservations upon it with reference to testimony, npon paper, which, with yonr |)ermission, I will hand up and I have ijivcn copies to my learned friends. It emhodies nolhinjiat nil except what I shonhl say if it was a snhject that 1 cared to discuss at length. There is nothing in it except reference to evidence and the heads id' suf;fi;est ions thai I should have intended to make. Sir Charles Russell. — Looking at its snhject matter and my learned friend having heen good enough to show ns a copy of this, we do not ohject to its being handed in. Mr Phepls. — .No. 1 told my learned friend what 1 .vould read with re- ference to i(. The President. — We quite appreciate the propriety of that mea- sure. Mr Phelps. — .Now 1 will indulge in one or two general ohservations and leave the rest lo the conlonlsof this printed table. In the tirst place thai theory is coni|iletely disproved in hu ap|)rehension by the fact that il contravenes the grave dominating fact of these animals life, which dis- tinguishes it fVoni all other animals that, so far as I know, ever was known; the leading fact, as 1 have said, the dominating fact, in the life of the seal on the {'rihilof Islands has been so clearly ex|)lained that it is not the subject of any dispute. .Now, this theory is entirely opposed to that, and would render that an absurdity and an impossibility. In the next place, it is completely disproved by the period of lh(> year in which the young of this animal are produced, and about which there is absohdely no conllicl in the evidence. The period of gestation is staled by all on both sides to he about 12 months. — undoubtedly lunar months, which I believe is usual with such animals. The time when the young are produi'ed and born on the Is. lands is not the subject of dispute. (:onse(pieutl\ this theory is comple- tely dispi'oved by that, because it must be apparent that what is referred lo occurs on the Islands. Then when you come to analyse the testimony in support ol it, il absolutely disappears into thin air: llusrc is really noth- ing of il. .Now, Sir. that brings me lo the end of one principal topic in (his case Ihatislosav. in analysing Ihe right of the 1,'niled Stales, as \ou wil| remembei', I have before obeived wc are not called upon todoil — the question is what is //^w right to work this destruction and this injury? The burden of Ihe justification is npon them. But as this has been gone — MiTI - iiili), iukI wc liiix! Ill) (U'Ciisioii lo shrink IVoin il, I liiivc Ihiis riir iu- vdiirt'd [ii coiisiili'i' lln^tillo thai w(> should hiivc to ihosit simIs iiiiihT Iht; ji(!nei'iil |triii('i|ik's of iiiuiiifipiil law iC iiislcail of Iho I'liih^d Slates (io- vornmoiil we were iii(!rol\ a CorpoialiDii, if yon |»li'iise, who havi" hiTome lh(! |)i'0|ii'irl()i-s ol'lhi'so islands and stood in lln! same silnatioii thai the SlatL's'dovornincnt now do — I shall proi'oed on llin ik^xI hcariiii; to laki' a lar},'t'i' \it'W(it' that snhjrcl — Ihiis far I liavo conlincd myself, as \on will ruineinher, to Ihu prinriples of mnnicipal law thiit wonlil have o|)ural- ed in onrfa\oiir if wc had heen a private party asserlin;; a ri^ht id' private properlv, and I hav(! tried to point out that upon thirst; ^;i'eal fads undis- puted except so far as tin; three niiiior partienlarslhal I have disenssed to day aiNM'onei^rned, and nol disputed siiceessfnlly I think I am warranted in saying' in those partienlars, upon those faels, wt; have a rif^ht of pro- perly in this herd uf animals where lliey are situated, and as they are situated; in view of the hnshandry and indiistrv (^stahlished in respeet of them — in view of the eonlrol iindei' wliieh tliev were liroiiiiht th( ii/iiini/s rert'iieiiili, which causes them constantly to reliirii them voloii- tai'ily to our conlrid. Led nie reter lo one point whicii. in passiiif;dver thai part of the case, for one moment cscaprul me. My friends empiirc : What have \oii done? 'riievsay : " Von have doniMiolhiiif,' except kill thes(> animals — you select Hhhii for killiiiji ". We have, in IIk^ lirst place, hy Ai'l of Congress, appi'o|M'ialed this territory and leserved it, which, otherwise, the (iovernniiMit mifiht occupy for other purposes or nii)j;lit make siihject lo entry and sale as yon know the lauds of the (iovernuieiit of the Uniled Stales are, except when reserv(>il for special purposes. |{y special .\cl of (lonf^ress these islands are conseirat(Ml to the use of these animals. They are under thi' Statutes of the I'uited States, and, hy the siipcriulendeuls of tlie I'uited States, appointed hy the (ioverii- iiicnl, and paid hy the (iovernmeul, they are watched over and protected from Ihc e.xlerminalion Ihal would cerlaiiiU come to them. The cruisers of Ihe I'liiled States, surround the islands; and there we have founded this valiiahle hushaudry. If W(! have lud conliiied them more closely it is nol hecause we could not do so if wi; desired — nothiiif; easier — hut hecause it would have heen not merely iisidess, hut preju- dicial to Ihe animal. Mow i asked a (|U(>stiou the other da\ and I have only a word or two to say ahout il now. ijerc! are two classes of animals — wild animals — ■ valuahle animals — lo one class of whicli the law annexes property so lonj; as Ihe aiiiniiis conlinnes whicdi returns the animal lo Ihe possession. The iiniiniis rrrcrlcmli is iiolhiiif; in Ihe world hut an element of posses- sion — il lakes Ihe place which, in domestic animals, entire conliuemenl lakes. II is a mere element. It helps — il takes Ihe place of the fence or Ihe wall that would restrain animals who, if so restrained, would perish and lose Iheir nsefnlncss. There are (dher animals, and Ihe dislinclions I pointed out the other day, under which the law of JMifiland — pr(d)al)ly- — 1074 IIk'Iuw of oIIu'i" coiinlries — applies a (liU'ciniil nilt; hccnust? lliocondilidiis iiro iMiliniU ilillorciil. Now lo wliirli tlo these lieloii);? What is llie disliii^Miisliiiig I'aet on wliirli this lefjal |)riiioi|)le adaelies? Thai is Ihe (|iieslioii. NN e have SUCH thai Ihe aniinais are as diversR as Ihey can he. Tliu\ helon}; lo every speeies of animals. We have S(!en Ihal Ihe eonlinonieiil is us (lillbreiil as (ho animals themselves. What is Ihe |ii'in('i|ile? It will bo tbiind in these Kn^lisli cases thai Nseru citod hy my associate .Mr Carter in (ho opening, and in the principles in the cases of the duer. W hat is it? It is (he es(ahlishnient of (he hiishanilry — Ihe industry — which means, in the lirst place, carc!, pains. |iroleclion, expenditin'e of money, on tin* partoC (he proprio(or NNliich ohiains llio product lor himsell', and tor tlM> world, withont which Iho animal wonid perish. That is what it is. Tlu'i'o is (he crKerion. That Iho aiiiiniis rrrrr/riuli so larf{el\ enters into it is hecaiiso it is so commonly th(! case that wiliionl (Ik; aiiinum rorcrlriiili i( is iiol sid)jecl to any cns(o(ly Ihal wonlil make i( iisei'nl — (hat if you shut i( up ill (he yard or in Iho huilding you have destroyed it. II is (ho hushandry — tin: industry: and when these cases |in respect of Ihe deer which iiavohecn so ol'len alluded lo, whoro the cpiesliun was whether thoy went witli the I'reehohl, or whether they were personal properly, the tpieslion was the same lliiii}? over af;aiu in another IVcnn — whethei' Ihey wore distrainahle lor rent (which only personal properly I believe is, in Kngland . or whether in Iho oilier ease, they passed lo (he heir, or went to llio executor upon the title .' That is the ^reat leading I'ael thai dislinguishcs those from the wild door of Scotland or (ho wild door of .Vmorica? II was tlu; liiishandry thai was founded and mainlained by taking such possession as the natiiri! of Iho animal admitted of; and I rospoclfiilly say thai there is no case in the range of Iho law where (hose I'acfs have not operat<;d in municipal law, without going to the larger lield ! shall try (o enter iii(o (omorrow — (Ikm'o is no case whore a right of properly has nol been deducetl and protected by tho law ; and when you lind on Ihe oilier hand Ihe cases of the wild game that arc put in Iho other class, you lind animals which arc tho subject (d' sport where the (iniinits i-prerhndi cannot bo identilied whore the animal, when ho goes abroad and ,;()7fi — flaim llial this riili! is cslublislied in llie (irsl place on aiillioriy so far as liic wonls of writers of acUno\vlc(lf!;ed antliorily can be ref;ar(ie(i a sncli. We claim that ilis eslahlislied hy |)rinci|iie upon sound reason tiiat it is necessary (o llie conliniied exislence in tiiis world of any such properly — Ihal under the pi-olection of thai rule ail the property of that sort that remains in the world has l)een savtul and is held to day — that wliere- evcril has heeii omitted to he asserted that product has perished and gone. In the United Slates' .\r{,nnncnt, page 13i, there are one or two cita- tions which as they are brief, and express my idea better than I can ex- press it myself, perhaps yon will pardon me for reading. I'nifendorf. in his law of Nature and Nations, has this language : As I'oi' lishiii^'-, tliou^'h it iiutli iiiucii iiiuri> alxinilnnt xiltji'cl in llic si'ii than in lakes 111' rivi'i's, yet 'lis laaiiiresl llial il may in i>art lio cxIiaiisU'd, and that if all nalions slioulil (li'sirc sncli light anil lihi'ily ncai' llic coasl ol' any parliiiilar cniin- Iry, that ronuliy rnusl he very ninrli incjndici'd in this rcspccl ; espt'ciaMv sinco 'tis vory usual that siinic parliciilar kind ni lisli, or perhaps siuiio nniri! pii^iipiis cuni- modily, as pearls, cural, and)er, (ir llio like, are lo he fdund only in one part of the sea, and that uf nti (•(in>ideral>le exieiil. In this i ase Ihere is no reason why Ihe horderers >honlil nol rallu'r cliallenf;!' to Iheniselves lliis happiness of a wealthy shore or sea than those who are seali'd at a dislancu Ironi il. II is very apparent that that languagt> refers to Ihal portion of the sea which is outside of the strict territorial line, because inside of that line il has never been maintained, that I know of, in the world that the exclusive right of pursuing aii\ kind, of properly that isto be found in llie water, or in tlif sea, hcioiigs to the sea. That has not been (piesli(Hi(;d : il is not (piestioned here l)\ my learned friends. 'I'liis language applies to those adjaceul seas still washing the shores of the nilion in which a pro- duct of Ihat kind is found, which would be destroyed if it wei'c thrown open lo the world willioul protection, and, as the aullioi- says, a title to which may well be asserted b\ Ihe nation lo wlii(di il properU belongs. .Another citation is frcnn Valtel. and perhaps there is no other among the many great and admirable aiilliors on Ihe subject of iidernalional law thai the world has the heuetit of, that is more universalK recogiii/.ed as stiuiid, durable aiilliorilx . Hi- work wrilteu at a comparatively earlv dale, IkHocc most of those llial .tre i; an extant, slillfelaius ils original aiithoi it\, is still (|uol(Mi, and this \m'\ (lassagc is cited liv m\ learned friends in llie printed argument on theii- side. Till' viuioiis uses olthe sea near the coasts render il very siiseeplilde ol'propeily. II liirii.shes llsh, shells, peiirls. ainliiM', etc.: now i i all lliese ie«|iiits ils iim' is not iiiexllaiistihie. Wherelore, Ihe nation to whom Ihe coasts lielmii; may appropriate to themselves, and convoit to their own prolil, an advanlai;e wliirli nature has so pi' I within llieir roach as to eiiahle Ihein conveniently lo lake posse^^ion of il, ill,' , same m.inner as they possess Iheniselves of the dominion ot the l.ind they inliahit. Who ran donhl that llie pearl tisheries ol' Halirem and Ceylon may law- I'lilly l)e('on^' properly'.' .\iid Ihou.nh, where the cateliiii^r of ti>;l! i* the only ohjei-l, the lishery a[ipi'ars less liahle to lie exhaiisleil. yet il' a u.ilio:. Ii .ve on their coasts a particular lishery of a piolilahio nature, and id'whiih lliey iua> hei ome masters. — I97ti — sliall thoy not be ponniltod Id ii|iiiro|irialc (o llii'insclves lliiil bdUiili'dus t;i(l uf nnturo as an apptMulafio Id llie (.-ounlrv tln^y possess, and lo resrivc to thonisi'lves the great a(lvanlaf.'i.'s which Ihoir coiunKn'ci! may thence (loi'ive, in ease there lie a suffleionl abnndance of flsli to I'nriiish the neinhhonrin^^ nations'.' Then eiling IVom anollicr soclion of lli(> siiine imllior, not iTudin;; il conliiuioiisly : A nation may aiipropriale to lierself those thin|;s of wliirii the live and ei non use wonid he iu'ejiidieial or danp'rons lo her. This is a second reason — he has before ^\\en the firsl. — for which ffoverrwnenis extend liieir dominion over the sea alim;; their coasts, as far aslhey are ahle lo protect llieir light. Thai passage will lie fouiul more frequently quoted by wrileis on llio suhjoci of international law, Ity jurists, in diplomatic correspondence, than perha|)s any other passajtc that can he found inaiiv other writer, aiui quoted with approbation, never questioned thai I know of; and what is tile purport of it? Mere ajiuin the author is uol speaking of this cannon shot limit, this three-mile limit — there is no (pieslion about that at all ; he is speaking of thai sort (if marine property exiendiiig even lo lish. iu which specili- calh nobody ever claimed a properly, in the spccitic animal that I know of — an animal tliat has no (/iiiniiis rrrcr/rm/i. who is not capable of being shut up until after il is caught, wlien il dies, which is absoliilely free — even as lo lisli, carrying tlie |)roposition much further than we have any occasion to carrs il here. The President. — Ho not \ou think he means tishery rather tlian the fish. Mr Phelps. — (Juite so, Sir, I was about to menlion that — the rigl'l of lisliing, wliellieras to the individual salmon or markerel, oi- wiiatever il may be. The President. A dislinri right of property. Lord Hannen. — I must beg your |)ar(loit. Mr {'helps, but I confess I lu\vi> read ami miderslood llial passage lo icier oiih to the three-mile limit, because he sa\s : — A naliiiii may appropriale In hersi'lt' tln'se lliinfjs nl' w lilcli llie free and eniiimon usi^ wiinhl lie inejiidicial or diiiii^erons In her. Tliis is a seemid reason for which (iovernmeMls iNlcud their domiuinn over thi> sea alonj;' their coasts as far as lln'y are ahle In pruleil iheir right. I iiiider-loiid that to he a reference to llie llieory liiat it is as far as a eaniion shot wmild go. Mr Phelps. — I do not so understand il. Marquis Venosta. — I remember ilial Valtel, afl'r expressing the considcratiiiiis \iiu have cit(>d. cdiicbides b\ adopting llie well known muviin of lUnkersboek — /rrnv (/oiiii/iiiaii /iiiiliir iihi linihir (iniinniiii ris, or, in other words, the rule of the cannon shot. Do \oii mil think thai 1!»77 — the cilulion yon have road is in coimeclioii wilii lliat condu?ion? I( is an ulm-idalion I ask you lor. Mr Phelps. — Woll, I do nol reinemhor liial passaj^c, Sir. Marquis Venosta. — You do nol think llial llicso considcralions have a diri'cl fiHVrciu'o lo Ihal conclusion. II is Ihc same a>. liic sonlinnMil. Ihal Lord llanncn lias expressed. Mr Phelps. — i do nol, Sir, wilii }j;roal submission, and I Ihink 1 can show iniinedialely il is nol so. The very illuslralion Ihal Vallel employs ill Ihis pussaj!;e in respecl ol' llio pearl lishcries whicli oxiend "20 odd miles into liie sea, show what he is Ihinkiii}; of, and Ihe conlexl of the book shows Ihal I" is nol merely al'lirmin^ there Ihc truism — I have not the aulhoi- — I lead from this ai'fiiimeni, l>ul I will refer lo il a};aiii - - he is nol there inoreh aflirming wiial had beeomi' tiie truism of Ihe line of sea over wiiicii a nation is aulhori/ed for many purposes lo extend its territorial doiiiini(m : il r(M|uires very lew words lo atliriii Ihal and no reasoniiif; to support it. He is r(?lerrin^ lo Ihe product, lo liie article of Ihe industry, not lo IIk; precise iiuiil of the sea in which it is contained, and I understand his proposition, thoiij;ii I may misnndersland it, of course, to be liiai wiiere such a marine product which he relers to, not only to Ihe pearl llshery, bul to fisheries in }j;eneral — where il i> in the adjacent waters, where il a|iperlains lo tlu! terrilory. where it is not inex- hiuislible — would perish if il were not protected, the jiroporty is in the ind"=lry, in Ihe fishery, as Ihe siijii^csled, not in Ihe specific animal by which he does not mean that lie coiild follow that animal oil i:ito a dislanl sea and assert the properly over him thill In; would overa domestic animal — over his horse (ir his n\. bul the |)roperl\ in Ihe indiislry. Sir Charles Russell. — .Ma\ I interpose, if it is nol incdiiveuienl lo my learned friend '.' Mr Phelps. — Certainly. Sir Charles Russell. — I have Ihe hook here, ami it will bi' found, with rei'erence lothe hook, he is dealinj; with the (|neslioii of the circiims- lu'.rc-: (iii'ler which dominion mav lie exiended. Mc Phelps. — Ves. 5iv 'Jharles Rus;cll. — • TIhm'c is no (|ueslio!i of properlv : but donii- iii< :. .1 :} he extended, and h(> jiislifies Ihal with relalion to tin; line of defei' !'. I'e goes (m in Ihe vei'v next passage followiuf^ lo show how far iiil-. |M. • .sioii ina\ extend; and Ihen he proceeds lo justify Ihe exlra- tei'ritoriid iiiiiil of ac(M'lain niai';;in of thi! sea. Mr Justice Harlan. — Hut when InM-efers lo IIk^ fisheries of Ceylon, do voii Ihink he means lo sa\ that pro|)erly oiily within Ihe territorial water, bul no jiroperly in Ihe lisbery outside? Sir Charles Ruspell. — .No; he Ihen dealiiif; with a dill'erent mailer alli f^ether, Ihal you may ac(|uire by possession; and Ihe case he puts is lominion in that spot, in Ihal place, — il is dearfroin the conlexl. The ; assafie-i are nol lof;elher, and they are nol in the same conneclion. Mr l^helps. - - They are siicceediiif.' sections. — I97S — Sir Charles Rdssell. — llo is siiowiiij; how fur liiis possession may exk'iui;iuHl tlion ho prdccods lo discuss the limils relurriii},' to the old ichnisol'cxieiided jdi'lsdiclion. In liial paragraph I:;,',), he refers to llic limitation of cannon shot. Senator Morgan. — Sir Charles, as lo the properly onlside the llircc- mile limit, 1 nndertand you lo insist that tin; Author refers lo the doctrine of acquisition by prescription? Sir Charles Russell. — I'arlly tliat, I do not say wholly that, hut pos- session. Mr Phelps. — 1 am very much obliged to my learned friend for re- minding me of what liad escaped me for the moment. There is another passage from this autiior to be cited in another part of my argument which shows thai my construction of his language is right. It does not depend merely on the illustration h(! employs, which shows very plainly tlial he is not procoedini; ou Ihc ground of a three-mile limit. Within the liiree- mile line, anvthi ;• " n* an be taken out of the water belongs exclusively to the nation; nobo ies that. Sir Charles RusseL. - Well, we do not admit that in that sense at all. We say thai lliere is the (!xclusive right to lake it, not that the pro- perty belongs to Ilic nalinn. Mr Phelps. — Kid I say " [\w. property belongs lo the nation"? I did no! mean to say that in thai sense of properly belongs. The exclu- sive right, if m> learned friend likes that expression better, and il is, perhaps, liic more corrcci expression, within the three mile limit of a nation lo take out of llic sea anything thai is worth taking, no matter what il is. is just as complete as ils exclusive riglil to lake similar pro- perly on ilssoil. 1 take it there is no question about that. What, then, is Ihe necessilv for this eminent author going further than llial in Ihe asscrlion thai he makes about these rights? When he has said thai witliin the territorial limit Ihe right is exclusive, he has said everything. He does not say tluil at all. lie says lh;il nations may challenge lo them- selves Ihe right to appropriate property of this kind which, as he says, appertains lif I give his words correclly, tiial is the substance of iti, and thai their righl becomes as extensive as the necessities ol the husbandry of this marine m- semi-marine product exieud ; and, as I shall show , thai is lh(! usage thai has obtained everywhere, without it, this would he non- sense. If \ou write in lo what Vallel has said there Ihe limitation " provided alwavs " — and that is whal is suggested as the explanation — to write at Ihe bottom of Iliis passage : provided always liial this product orlishery, or whatever il may be, can be a\ailed of within three miles of Ihe coast — if llial is not suflicieni as in nine cases out often, and indeed i)9 out of Ifin it is insuflicieni - tlien this right that he has set forth so lully comes lo an end, ami if il is suflicieni he has onU aflirmed in all Ibis language whal nohodv at all denies and which might be staled if he had oc<'asion lo stale il in a single line. — I!I71I — Sir Charles Russell. — He is willing at the end of the last century, in 1707. Mr Phelps. — If lliut is a question in dispute, we were aware of liie dale of Vallcl's wriliu};, and I presume llie Trii)unal also were. If niy learned friend means to assert llial Valtol does not support my view that is one thing. If lie ass(>rts lliat Valtel is no! authority when he slated that, that is another thing. Sir Charles Russell. — .No, I referred to the date, because the limita- tion of Ihe territorial jurisdiction was mil then lixed as it is now. Mr Phelps. — It was lixed and there was some limitation. Senator Morgan. — .\nd it is not lixed now. Mr Phelps. — .No as I shall show presently by the Knglish decisions, but we must take one thing at a time. If it be said that Vattel wrote too early to be aulhorily, that will dis- pose of Ibis citation; that is a point on which I have nothing lo say. If it be that be, in using this language, meant only to assert Ihat the exclu- sive right io lake propei r oul of Ihe sea, williin the limit assigned to the territorial jurisdiction, was enjoyed, then I say, with very gi'cal res- peel, bislanguage is complelely misunderstood, .\nothcr section, which will be found on page li8 of the I'niled Slates' Argument, shows that plainly enough. That is seclion "iS'.l which is Ihe section immediately following Ihe two from which I have read. Those I have read are sec- tions '2H1 . a pari of 288, and Ibis is 28'.), or an exiraci from il. I do not assci'l that il is llii' whole, because I do nol know wilhout reference lo the book. II is mil I'asy liidcli'iininc In wli;il (lishmccllic naliun inayoxlciid ils li^ilils over till' SIM liy wliicli II is surrounded. . . Karli slate iiiav on \\\\> head make wlial ri'i;nVili(in il pli.'nscs sii far a- rcspccls llu' Iraiisaclidiis (d' llic rilizons willi oacli nllici', nr Ihcir cdiicci iis willi llio sovi'r'cijrii ; linl, bclwiTii iialimi ;uid nalinii, all llial can rcasiitialdy lir said is llial in Lri'iii'ral llie ddiniiiinu (d' Ihe slate over tlic p.ei- tililinurini; seas I'xioiids as tar as her salely renders il n ssaiy, and licr iiinvcr is alile tn nsscil it. And in llial conmM'tion I should like lo read NNliaM'.bancellor Kent says. Sir Charles Russell. — Ibit llien \allel noes on lo say in Ihe same passage llial be refers lo Ihe cannon-sliol. Mr Phelps. — If you will give me Ihe book I will read il. Sir Charles Russell. — .No, I beg your pardon lor inlerrupling you. Mr Phelps. — It is no embarrassmeni, and I will read anylbing thai is desired. Sir Charles Russell. — No, I do not wish thai. Mr Phelps. — I regret llial I read Ibese citations from where Ibey had been taken, wilhoul bringing in Ihe vidunie, as 1 might have done, but if there is anylbing further i will recur lo Ibis subject again. Then Chancellor Kent says in bis First Commentaries, at page; 29. II is diriiciill lu draw any lU'pcisc (ir dcleiTniuatc coiiclusinn amidst Ihi! variidy — IKSII — uT o|iini(iiis as \-t tlio ilisliiiice In wliicli a stale may lawfully I'Xloiid its oxchisive (loiiiiiiiiiii over lln' sea adjniniiif;' its liTritories anil lipydiid IIkisi' pnrtioiis dl'tlic sea whicli ail' cniliraieil by liail)nui's,i;iill's, hays, anil esliiaiii's, anil nverwliii'li its jiiris- ilii'linn unqiipstiniiably rxtonds. All thai can reasonably be asscrlod is, Ihal the diiminiiin of the soveroi^'ii of llio shore ovortlio eonliguons sea extoiuls as far as is rei|uisilL' for ils sal'i'ly and t'oi' some lawl'nl end. It is prelly clear lliiil C.liani'clldr Kent is iiol tiilkin^ iihniit the tiiree- inile limit there, heeaiisc the voi y sii^'f;estion willi which lie starts is, how far heyoiiil the territorial (loiiiiiiion may a iiatinii oxlcnd its |)o\vers: and he answers thai question by sayinj;, over the conlif;uoiis sea, liie sea thai washes its coast, as far as is requisite for its safety ami for some lawful einl. Ami he says in another connexion that being from page 29 of his conimenlarics, and this is on page l{| : — And stales may exercise a more i|iialilied juiisdietiun over the seas near their coast for more than Ihi; throe (or live) mile limit for liscal and defensive pnrposes. fiotli Groat Britain and the United Stales have prohibilod tho transhiiimenl within fonr leaunes of Ihoir roast of fnieiiin ,!;oods withont payment of duties. That is nut nf place. I shall come to that subject later on. I only refer to those in coniie.xion with what N'altel has said, and I respectfully insist thai both these authors, I'nfl'endorf and Vattel intend to assert and do assert the right of the nation to extend its dominion over properly of that sort attaibed to its territory in >ome way in the contiguous sea, whieli is nude Ihc basis of an impoi-iuol iniliislry jusi as far as is necessar\ to protcL'l tiiat, and wiiethei' lhal fails outside of the tiiree-mile line : whether indeed, as in the case of the pearl lisliery, it all fallsoni of llie three-mile lino or whether it is property that is purl of tho lime within the Uiree-niilc line or part of the lime without it, it all comes in under the general prin- ciple, llie neeessarv pi!nci[)le. will'ont which I have said there would be nil siicli properix lo quarrel over. .\s ni\ i'rii'iid suggests to nie, both writers make a cardinal condition of the exhauslii)ilily of this iirodiut, distinguishing such a product as this from those general lisiieries that are there, as far as we know, in the admiiiislration of human all'airs iiiex- hauslible or practically inexhaustible. Then there is a jiassage from Valin, a l^'rench writer, which is cited at page 1H8. which may usefully enough be referred to in this connection, Ihongh it is suggested for another purpose. Wlien we come lo discuss the question of the Newfoundland Tisheries that have been spoken id" be- fore in this arguuii'ul, it will be seen that this passage from Vattel lhal I have ipioled was quoted in that discussion as giving to (ireal l.rilain the excdnsive control over those fisheries extending very, very far out into Ihe ocean in all directions from the coast. II is in Ihat connection lhal this from \'alin is (|noled. As to tile lif-'lit of llsliir)!,' npon the bank of Newfoundland, as that island wliieli is as it were the seal nf Ibis lisliery then belonn'i'd In Fiance, it was so held by Ihe French that other nations cnuld iialnrallv li>h tliere only bv vii'lue of llio Iri'aties. — losi — How fill" oul tliiil was wc shall see wlieii 1 come to deal willi llio siiliji'il. Tliis li:is siiiri' cliiiiif.'c'd liy iiicaiis nT llic cussiiiii dI' the ishuiil of .Ni'wl.'iiiulliiii'l made 111 till' Eiifrlisli by Ihe trcaly ui' I'livclil ; Ijiil l.niiis XIV, al Hip limi- nf tlial oessiiiii, iiiadi! an oxpri'ss rosei'valion of Ilic ri;.'ht nf lisliint: upnii lln' li.iiik nf Ni'W- fduiidlaiul, in favor of Ihn Pri'nrli as liefoii'. it will he seen, as the context, I lliiiik, is read from lliis honk, from llie coiisti'iutioii lliat has heeii put ii|ioii this many limes when it has heen cited in similar controversies, Ihal Vallel ne\er has heen undcrslciod as merely assnmin^- thai the nation had a certain territorial jnri>i(lielion onlside of the land, whicii nohody denies, hnt he asserts Ihal iiresiiec- tive of that il may exercisi; a control over this sort of prodiicl imder those conditions and nnder those circumstances. Now what would he Ihe consequence if the rule was otherwise, if Iliis descri|)tion of property everywhere was held lo he open to Ihe whole world as these seals are claimed to lie open? W'hal has heen the result where Ihal has taken place, and what musl necessai'ily he Ilic residl? The necessary result is exlei'niinalion. II is only Ihe nation Ihal has a liushandry estahlished that has in the first plac(^ Ihe means of rci;iilaling and protecting, and in Ihe second |tlace has made use of Ihe product lo make il vahialile^ ii is onl\ that nation Ihal has any inleresl in iirulecliiiji il; il is only ihal nation Ihal can protect il. If they canmil. nojjudy else can. If il is thrown open lo the world , Ihen the liislory (if llu^ seals in every oilier part of Ihe world would he the hislnry of all mariiii' or semi-marine producls. and we ciime to the conclusion Ihal Ihe inler- iialional law on Ihal suhjcM'l is one Ihal throws over lo Ihe world products (if Ihal kind in such a way liial lliey musl inevilahly he di'sh'oyed. .Now is (here an\ aulhorily Ihe oilier way? Ihive m\ learned friends in the exhaiisiive and very ahle argument of IJiis ease, Imlh in w riling and orally, wliieh Ihe Trihunal have had Ihe advantage of hearing, pruduoed anything on the (ither side? Is tiu're siuiie writer on internalional law thai has deelai'ed Sduiewhere, in the same senst> that this i-igiit does not exist? Is there any writer or an\ Court which can he found lo assert that ill properlv situate like this to which Nattid refers there, the right of pro- tection terminates at lliree miles or at a caniitm shot or at an\ otiiei' ~|ie- cilied dislaiice? \\'h\ \es. tliert' are jurists who have had lheljii:li hmioiir of lii'iiig cited hv tile iiio^t distinguished counsel of a great nation — Iheri' is a man oi the name of Itidierl liavner who writes for the new-papers in America, who is hrouglit forward as one of these jui'ists, who ha- heen a consislenl champion to the extent of his capacity of Ihe I5rili
  • of liis jud;;- meiils, ilt'oliiri'd lliid ri'iidiiif; mid writiiif^ ciimo l)\ iiiiliiri': it' lie liiul livi'd a liltlo lal(;r lie woidd iiave added " iiilprnalional law" lo tlio calefiocy. Tlial is a siilijetl on which a great many people are ahle lo eidij^hlen the world wilhonl having liad the advantage of any previous ednealion. Problems that oceasion grave diriicullies lo greal lawyers and judges, thri/ are alile to dispose of in a very short time. Then there is another young gentleman named who has wiitlen an arginnenl and printed it to tlie same elFeet. I am told that he iielougs to tlie New-York liar, and practises as a lawyer lliere. I luive not the pleasui'e of knowing him; hut lie has written an argnnieiit. Well, they are ahoul as much authoiity, I was going to say though Ihey are really of course not so much authority as the argmuents of my I(>arned IViends; the ditrereiice lieing that the argu- ments of my learned fiiends come from gentlemen eminently ((ualitied to make Iheni instead of from those who do not enjoy such (jualilication. Then it is said my friend, President Angell,of the I niversity of Michi- gan, who is the President of that I'niversity and a gentleman of very high standing, in a maga/ine ai'ticie has said the same lliiiig. — that we have no such right. Well, President .\ngcllis not a lawytM', and has had no oppiM-tunity to see the I'nited Stales' Case and on what ground we put it, or what the facts are. I should be very v\illing, with those additional advantages, to suiimit this Case to his judgment, lie woidd frankly say prohahly, if he were eni|uired (if, that this was a casual, superticial ex- pression upon a suiiject he had not exaniiiieil and with which he was not familiar and in which he had assumed as true what had heeii so largely claimed on the part of Canada at least, if not oftireat Uritaiii. If we were going into pampiilet literature (Ui tliis sid)ject, I would ratliei'couinieiul an .Article that has more reciMdly appeared from AfrTracey.a vei'v eminent lawyer, in the ".North American lieview ", which I have seen since I came hei'c: and an Article by Mr Slater in the " .Nineteenth Ccnturv ", one of the most emiiuMil of Itrilish Naturalists, which came old pending my It^irned friends' argument on the other side. If these are the sources lo which we are to go, I tliink llie weiglit of the .Maga/ine literaturi' will be found lo i)e as much agaiiisl my learned friends as anthorilliies of a higher character. Willi that evcejition, if we have misread N'attel and Pnll'endorf, no olhci' writer is produc(>d lo show it; no writer who lias put atliU'ereut con«trnclion on those passages; no writer wlio has aftirmed the rule of law lo hi' dilVerent from what we aflirm it lo be here. It is to such sources as tlial, of wluun it is not too much disrespecl to say that Ihey are (juile beneath llu' attention of such a Tribunal as Ibis on such an occasion, thai my learned friends liiive lo go for what is called anthority. Now, it cannot beat this age of the world that in respect of properly of this kind which the world contains in many seas, on mauv shores, the question of the legal right of the nation to which it appertains l(» enjoy it and protect it can he new. It may be new as applied lo the seals, or il - I!i«3 — inity iiol. Il ciiiiiiol he new in the sense in wliicli Vulloi luul i'lilltMidorf (iiscii^sed it. Il can he fonnd one way or liie olliei', and it' \Ne are wronj;, cciiainly Ihe Icai'iiinj; and diligence of my learned friends ninst he ahle to show il. II may jierhaps have heen ohserved hy the memhers of Ihe Tri- hnnal llial ii|ion this discussion, n|)on which we have cited so nuich and, ill addition to that that I shall cited Ihe opinion of a great many more writers of anlhoiily from various nations, Knglish, .American, l"'i'ench, Italian, I'oiiiigiiese, (jerman, — it cannot have escaped the notice of Ihe mcmhcrs of the Trihnnal that my learned friends, in their exiianslive pre- paration of this >nhjecl and hetter qnalilied than we are I am sure to e.\- plore Ihat learning, have hronghl \ou nothing hut the hicnbralions of these yomig gentlemen in the l-niled Shiles. who. from some inducement that is not known to us. have written arguments on that side. If I have over!oi)kcd anylhiiig, I shall he happy to he remindeil of it. Now, as I remarked the other day, the title; of a nation comes hy possession and assertion, whei-e thai possession and assertion does not controvert any right of another nation or any |iiinci|)le of international law Ihat is founded u|)on the I'ights of aiiolhcr nation. II is possession, and assertion, and in evcr\ case, as il will he seen when wi; refer again to Ihat review of similar cases that was presented to you hy my .\ssociale in the opeiiiiig, llial is what the title of the nations stood on. They reepii- red 110 convevance from anyliodv. They made no Treaty with anybody. In every case they stretched out the hand of Ihe national jiowcr and took possession of lliis adjacent product, and proceeded to liiishand il and im- prove il, and lo give Ihe world as well as Ihemsi'lves Ihe henelil of this pi'iiducl. That is what lliey did. If any nalioii had a heller righl, that >tep on the part of Ihe nation that ajiproprialed il would have been open lo (iiicslioii and would liavi been made the subject of controversy. If tlu^y had appriipiiaird what hclonge'd lo some-body else, their appropriation would have been opi-n In challenge, and would liavi; been challenged. If, on the other hand. Iliey had appioprialed only that which was Ihe coiii- iiiou properly (d' all mankimi. still more would llieir a|i|iroprialion have been successfully resisted and challenged by those who had an interest in doing it. who desired lo avail llieinselves of IIkmc right to participate in pioperly thai was common to mankind. W hen Ihe I nited Stales, there- fore, in appro|»riating this terrilory lo the protection of Ihe seals and in fnuiidiiig Ibis industry upon it, have; so taken possessiiin of il and asser- ted the title on which the existenci; of this herd depends, the moment il is gone the seals are gone: when lliev havethme that, tlii! (|uesli(Mi is, what right of mankind have lliev invaded, if Iliey liavi; invaded any.' Il is the rig'it of mankind lo exierminute that raci; of animals, because Ihcy cannot parlicipale in it on the sea without doing so. If it were possible for Ihe rest of Ihe world lo c(nnc and avail themselves of what is called pelagic sealing of Ihe product of this herd and not exlerminaie it (dVllie earth, then the argument of the other side would have Ihe advantage of lieing |)laced nol upon Ihe right of exlerminution, but upon a right of |iai'lii'i|iiitioii ill wlial lln'v s:i\ is (i|ii'm to all llic wurld. Itiil llial is iiii|Missilile, as I shall show iiiori! clt'arK vnIkmi I cdiiu^ to deal vsilii lliis uvidtMicc. I assuinu il, lor lliu purpost; ol' mv iircscnl ar^uinoiil, it' the world oiilside have any ri^lil|in this liiisiiicss, to |iai'liei|ial(^ in il. it is a rifjlil to exicriiiinalc it in ii very sliorls|iacc of lime. .Now when the I'nited Stales slriitches out its arm and takes [losses- sioii of this |n'o|»erly or Ihis hi'r.l or this iiiteresi — call it what yon will — which a|i|iertains lo their territory is produced there; and would pei'isli wilhont il — lakes care ol il and protects it and loniids Ihis industry upon il. asserts its title, then when llicsu individuals who challenge; thai come forward and say they are; ussumiiij^ a title to whal i)elon|;s to Hie world. Ihey are sliutling us oul from a participation ol thai sort of liiMiclil which as a part of llu; freedom of the sea Itelongs lo all mankind; " I say .' Whal is it you projiose lo do? — what do you wiml to do? We waul lo luku lliese seals as yon have lieeii taking them indiscriminately ill the waler. Can you dislingnish hetween sex<;s? .No. Ito you al- lempt lo distinguish? .No, hecaiise il would he of no use. Whal is tin; result of that? Well, the result of it would he thai hefore live years the seals would have perished oil' the earth. .Now upon the proposition ol my learned friend. inlernali(jnal law is on that side. Inlernatioiial law pi'iivides li\ a principle founded upon wrong and iiol upon right, eiinn- ciatcd now her*;, li\ no writer, applied in no other instance that wc hear of ill till! history of the world — international law, this suhlh; essence that onl\ exists for iiiisehiel'and can lie lrac(;il In no foundatiini oi right, steps in now and says we cannot assert our right to this property on the part of Hie Ciiitcd Slates liovernment. It is the right of mankind to exterminate oil' the I'ace of the earth, and tliei'cfore, if there is a litth; knot of adventurers anywhere thai desires to emiiark in that liusiness, the (iovernmenl must retire and extermination must lake place. .Now, I say thai that stands upon no aullinrity : it is jnstitied li\ no writing in any liook that woiihl receive a iiionieiits" attention liy lawyer or judge. It is not that. It is justilied li\ no practice Ihal ever pn^vailed: hut is contradicted |i\ all practice that ever prevailed; and it ri'sts upon notliiiig, — no reason that can lie slaletl. My learned frieml ciitici>ed m\ .Associate. .Mr darter, for saying th;il the right of the (iovernmenl lo avail itself of this indnsti'v depends u|ion the fact that they could so admiiiisli;r it as to preserve il for niankiiM' at the same time giving mankind and themselves the lienelit of Hie product. \N li\, Ihal surprised my learned friends. Their capacity for surprise is large. Tii(> niollo of" Ai/ "i/iiiiniri " it^ not on their coat-of-arms ; and I liiive iiolic(ul sometimes that the sur|irise of my learned friends at pro- positions advanced was in the direiM ratio of their inaliilitv to answer them. When a proposition is stated that cannot he answered, '■(thi ", my learned friends say, " .\re we to regard Ihal as serious? Ilo yon mean to persist in it after you have Iteeii informed in llu; British Counter Case it is wrong. We pause for a reply ". Well, lieing apprised, with IIIM,') - a sorl ol" iiinliicily possilily llial ln'li)ii}{s loo younger cnmilrv, tliiil we should vciiliirc lo pcrsisl in il till we hcui'il llii> answer lo it, Ihal occa- sions I'eilernluil and additional siii'|trise. NotN, it' yon do not liKu my lirollioi' darters' reason, if thai is not siiriicieiil, what is lliere '.' On wluit ground does their' |)t'o|ii)silion stand'.' Here art; two propositions thai are directly opposed loeaeholher; one ol' Ihein niiisl stand lo the exchision of the other. Tilt! prop./sitioii on our side is that the iialion lo which sncli a |iro- pcrly appei'lains, where it l)elonj;s, and is prodiietni and which can alone adniini>ler il, and which has at lahotir ami c\pense and throii^ii a lon^ l)criod ol' lime eslahlished that industry, has a right to il hy the prin- ciples of iiiternalional law. — Their proposition is that it heioiif^s to such porlions ol' mankind, — \i\H'i people, I heliijvc; my hrother llohinson says eonslilule mankind in this case, — that il heionj^s lo such poi'lion of mankiiul as want lo use this properly in a way Ihal is certain extcr- ininalion. Now, there is where we are at issiu; ijxaclly? When we ask oui- learned friends, lias this unl'orlunateiy been eslai)lislied by authority, so that wo are loo late in establishinf; our proposition? We are rofeired to lloherl Hayner, and one or Iwo persons of that sorl. When wo ask for tilt! practice and usajic which, in another pai'l of this case, wo ai'o lold by my learned fi'iend constilule international law and is indis- pensable to il, you lind the practice of the whole world is the other way. In every case, when you net down lo I'uiHhMuental principles and ask for Iho right on which it staiuls, what liuve thin lo say'.' II is, Sir, I i-espectfully say, as I said in the outset, tlu! stalcmonl of Ibis proposition either to a legal mind or to a rninil Ihal is possessed of anv sense of justice, — thai is its ai-gmnent. — there is notbing to add lo it after its slalomenl; the answer to il may be invited, the answer to il may be asked for, and until that answi'r is foi'llic(»ming surely lliere is nothing more to be said '.' I do not propose in Ihe riiview that I am about to make somewhat rapidly of the vailous iuslaiices, — all the instances in the hisloi'y of Ihe world that wo know anything about of simiiai' properly similarilv situated, — lo spend a great deal of lime because this lias be(;n presented by my Associate in the opening, and il certainly is nol necessary foi' me lo repeal what has been already said at the risk of nol repealing it as well: but I want lo nniew tliiMn in order lo give point lo what I have said in respect lo the arguments on the other side and in i-espoct lo the alignments on the other side and in respect lo the practical application of those induslrios. The first one is this one of the (loylon I'earl iMsheries. Thov extend from () lo 21 miles from the short;, oulside entirely of any jurisdictiiuial lino. There is not an oyster, as far as I understand that is within miles of the shore. I?y various Stalut(;s, and most just and proper Slalules, throughout a very long period of lime ( I will nol underlakc lo say how loiiji, l)iil il is said in llio llrilisli Ar^'iinicnl " fmin lime immcmorinl, " anil I prosiiinc lluil ('\|in'ssioii is cDrrccl, us il is onliiiiirily omployiMl), lliosc risiiorii's liiivc hccii i'Of;iiliilc(i and piolccli'd, and exclusively enjoyed uiidin' Hie Urilisli Ciovornniont or ils T.olonies. No! a peail- ovslor was ever laKen lliere, so Car as we have any reason lo believe, li\ any living, man, except siilijecl lo those ite^'nialions, -- not an instance lias heeii |iroduced ol' any ship of any individual ever altenipliiif; to inlcriere with lliat. Well now lot me snppose that some sharp American should til out a lishin^' lleet, and {io down there in tin! pursuance ollhe rifjhis of mankind and he;;in takiiij; up those Oysters in deliancc of the rc^ululions hy whioli alone lliev are protected from extermination — in deliancc of laws which prevent IJrilish subjects i.i least landwe will see about that in a momiMit), from interl'erinji- willi Hie Oysters ij> a manner Ihal is not perfectly coiisis- lenl with their protrction as shown by e>perieiice and intelliftcncc, fiCt ino imagine! sncli a Heel <^i)\i\,' dov.n there. Well the Commander of this expedition savs : " Aye, what, are yon proposinj; lo do here '•.' "Wo arc proposiiif; to lake up pearl 0\slers and we have come out lo make a /,rof/l ". Take them up— how? " \\'liy as we f,'el tlioni ". " Any parliciilnr lime "? " No,alany time". " .\ny parliciilarway "'.' ".No, ill the wav we can p'l them ". " Well, are \ou aware thai that would result in llie speedy deslriiclion of the whole prodiiclioii "? " Well I do not care anylliiii}; about Ihal. F-el the ladies i;o without their pearls. What conse((uence is it if lhe\ are exterminiiled. il is a small mailer and aiiv how I am here on the part of mankind : yon have no control over the liijili sea that is free; we are free to exercise the rijjiil oftishiiif; oil the hi^h sea free to all mankind ". .Now what does anybody snjipose would lake place? — Tliiit (ireal Hrilaiii wouUl stand back and bow in disfcrence lo those riffbts of man- kind and permit that fishery lo be exterminated? Will any man say that a Hovernmeiil ou;,'lil to do so? l>oes anybody supjiosc that it would do so? Why the (luestion answers itself? Now what is tin! answer in the IJritish arfjument to this? Why, il is said in the printed arj^nmenl by my friends : " The I'i^hl lo these pearl lisheries out in the sea has Itoen recof;ni/ed from time inimeuiorial by everv bodv ". Thai is precisely what we say. Il bclon^cHl to you from tiiiK- immemorial, and il has bijen well recoj;ni/(!d, and all the nations of the earth have a.iii'ced that you should reco^iii/e il so far as can be shown bv Iheir idjstaiiiiii^ from interference. Vou have had — you have been permitted to have — by the acquiescence of all nations this property : vou briiij; vonrself — (in fact this illustration is given by Valteli — exactly wilbiii the principle — yon briii^ yourselves within analofjous iisaues, when you inform this Heel of i//i(isl pirates Ibal come there and that couK! for the purposi! of dislroyinf;; Ibis indusli'v wilh its means of liselihood for those engaged wilh its prolils totheOovernment. — " Why Ihal Mui would be repelled is expected; and all mankind and all the — I!»S7 — Olid ii;;ii'i'> lliiif vdii sliiMilil ". Niiw sii|i|iiisi' lliiil llio (|iii'sli(iii in lliis Ai'liili'iilidii Ik'Ismm'ii IIi'i'mI lli'iliiiii iiml llii> I'liilcd Sliilt-s wns, lliiil llin I iiili'd Sillies cliiiiiii'd lliiil llic Iti'ili^ii liiiMTiiiiii-iil >li(iiild |iiiy lor lisliiii;; vi'ssids lilli'd (III! hy llic I nilod Sliil'>s Id •in IImti' and lo pi'i'V ii|miii (his |M'iii'l lislicry III llic risk of cxtcriniiiiitiiij; il — sii|>|msi' (in-al Hriliiiii li:iii diiiic wliiil slic ('('liiiiiily would, or Iiit colonics, mid us sIk; oiifilit lo liavc done wlit'ii lliosi- |ic(i|di' aiinoiiiiii'd llii' |nir|iosc id' llicir pri'si'iin' liiori- — ■ had hiki'ii sill' sliiji i iiirit'd il in and conliscali'd il in iln- |iriea and we ask an Awiir(i llial vessels tliere for llial avowed |iiir|iose and willi lliaf eerlain rcsiill and seized hy the lirilish (ioveriiiiieiil in |)nr- siiaiieo of Slaliiles Ihal have hi^eii loii^ in force, llial are well know lo all IIk! world — Ilia! Iliey slionld pay for llieiii — I should like lo know wlial, award is lo he expccled fioiii Iliis 'rrihnnal in Ihal case? I should like lo know whal incnilier of this 'rrihrnial would enlcrlain Ihal proposilioii for one siiij;le inoiiienl ; and vol Ihal, proposition stands upon evorythinji that can he invoked in favour of the propositions of my learned friend in respect of the seal — (hat is lo say it wdiilil stand upon a general disscrlalio;; mi (he freedom of (he sea and the iii;lil of lishinj;- as a part of the freedom of the sea, and upon this favourite proposition of my learned friiMids that tliev recur lo with so much pleasuri' — hiM'aiise it seems more gratiful to lliem than discussing some propositions in the easel — that you cannot give an e\(ra-(errilorial eU'ecl lo municipal sta- tutes. Well, thai is all very Iriie as a general proposition — nol (rue as applied (o this class of case as I am going to contend. II is as true in this ease as it is in Hie other casi; of the Allantie : il is true thai the sea is frec^ : il is Inn; Ihal tishiiig, as a general rule, is one of the rights of llio freedom of (he sea : it is Iruc liial as a general rule sinlntes do not extend in their ell'ecl heyoiid the territorial jurisdiction of the nation thai ciiaels il. We have liie advantage, in our claim, foi' |iaymeiit of (hose sihooners llia( are deslnning pearl lisheries — we have the henelit of those propositions and mdiody denies them I suppose. Should we siicceiid? and if we. should not, upon wiial piii'ciplc is one rule lo he appealled to in thai case, and another in this? Senator Morgan. — jtiit .Mr I'helps, is il your view that dredging for pearls is tishing within the meaning of International law? Mr Phelps. -- 1 do nol know whether il is. hut I do nol care — il is OIK! kind of lisliing. There are shell lisli I suppose: and whether the term " tishing" would he correctly applied (o gelling llicin up — I helieve (hey call (hem " Oysler Fisheries" sometimes, hul il is not material and does nol lonch the point thai I am upon — It is (hat marine product silua- (edoul in (he sea 20 miles from the land, Lmt appertaining to it, as it docs, because il stays (here on that coast — iuishanded as it is there — certain 2ol IIIMH Ik |iri I l\ \l 1 1 {■'. i|ii ill ii\ I'll Mini III! nwii nurll In ill! I In' \mi| III III ill wniild 111' 111!' ' I- r III ll WiillM 111' |i| 1' iilli'il \"vv 'li.inlil llii'\ 111' iMi' In -.w niiiji'i lliiir i n i niii'iliiin r : \\<- i mm «lh'Ot>M"liilK nniiiil im llii imilnni iii In n\ In ■. il llirv liinl 'Jii\i'il in llh> ui'ii !ill till' liiui' lull ll llii'V ui'iil nil liiiil |n ii|iii; iili'il llii'ii' ui' linillil nnl MtMWtliM Moiuiiit Mm I llii' Hitli.li tinvi'ninii'nl til iHi\ n-M'tiin' IVnin llli'sn li'dini inx ' Ml IM\i'l|>»i I iln ii'il Iviinu I ii|.|in ,' liii'v lln Ini I I iln iml I, tinn ' l-ll>" ll Inl 'llllli'il IIkiI llli'V iln ,11 lllrv unllM nnl li',"n|:l|i' IIii'IhIm |iiil>lii run lini'iil Mn t'huili"! U\niM,>ll I .In nnl iii'iil, vMili ii'iiiiiiiiv Iml | ImIu'i,. nnl ll \im llnnl, il niili' I 111 ^^ 1' 1 111 I lli|lllt 1' M\ rholim I lln nnl .i|ii'mI, mill I III niih ,m iii\ 111, I ii|i|iii';i <| lln'\ ,li.l Iml I ,1,1 n,i| i, ,ill\ Kn,>\\ Hi'n.'KiM Mni.>;iU\ I li,' \iiii'ii.iUl ."nvi'i niui'iil , nl inni r, j'i'l n lovnnni' IV.nw llio |M,iilinl nl llm Ini 'I'lil-., ninl llmv mi' iinnli' Iln- m liii nii'iil nl' prnlil llinin In llnil rvl, nl M\ ri>.'ll»« I ll.ll I'- ,1 M,'\\ nl 111,' 1 ,1 ,,' I ,1111 1 ,1111111; 1.1 1 11 , 'tis null I li.nl '.niiiin',,',! lli.il 111,' Hull li ( my.i nnnnl ,li'ii\i'i| n irvi'im,' |,iil | ,1,, Kl\n\\ I UMV Im iniili' nil>.|,il,.'n \l\ In, ml, wnnlil Kniiw n jnil ilml l>,>ll.'i lliui 1 vhnnlil Init ll I- n,i| iiniliiLiI In ni\ lUrMlin'nl ll \.m ni.iinl.un llin nni|ni' .Innn'il n,,,lil nl liiviij |!iil,iin wlmli \\\,\ innlnml Ini in lln'ii ,u,",iini,'nl \,i\ pi ,i|i,'i l\ . I a I, iijinn v\liil ;i.,iiinl \nu ^iii- .-vivilnvl In illM-niwm.ili' Iln' , .i-i' nl III,' .I'.il limn Hi il ' li,', .in .,' whnn \nil I'.MIlo In l,\nk iiiln llin ininlilnm nl llin .iinniil, lli nni , I;l«<-0S, ll iv Ihi'-n .inmi.il . wlin li,l\i' rnnii' nil llnl ,' ll ||\,' In |i|n|iil;',ii||i. lO Oi»nlllHI<> In ,'M-.|, 111, (I .111' li'll Inn,' ,i , nin, Ii ,illi,|n',| In I lin iniisl.i i«v lh.> liv|« ll llii'in I', ,in\ ili'^i ninnnilinn Ih'Ivmi'ii Iln' lun i i'ik llm «VIN,< nl \\w v.'.iK is I,',, Inn, Ii-,m!;.>i III. in llial nl Hi,' nv Im I'lii'ii il i . s,\ui t>\ win, l\,>\,M nl nn liii'inl" n. i , ■.|ini|..i|i|,' Ini Hi,' |iwiil ,',l ,ii ,',iiini'nl .Uhl I Ivhi'vo ll i> -,u.l 11) llit> ,11,(1 iiiiuuninl \\ li\ . Hi, n\ In , m,' mi III.- l>.>llnui , s,mU ,1, ,. nn Iln- |n|i Iji.il iiniln' ,1 illllm I'll, .- ■ W.MI. Ill Ihn lirsl |.l.i. ,'. «|i,i| ,ui|lintil\ iln,". lli.il -I, in. I mi Winn w,' mM «J> «« 111 ll, ^^l'v, ll II o\i>h. it o\i>)s as a lo,'liiiu-,il rnl.- Ili.il i I.ililisln-ii li\ anllimiiv . in.l, th.MVI'oiY, must !».> iV4;ar.l,-,l |> Hni,' ,i„v .inHinnlv l.n il ' I- Hnn' ,i lino fiwm ainlio.h \\li,, wmi,- |„.|ni',' iln. ,ii;;niii,'iii , in i'\|il,iiii in ii, \\U\ it is thai thoiv i- a tlitV,-ivu,-,- li,'l\\,'.ii ,i |ii',i,lii, i nl ili.il -m l ,ii Hi,' Imllmn »vf tho s.vi, sn.) «Millii> l.ip' Siippiw,- M'.iU |ir,i|.,\|;,il,'.l .m lln- linllmn nl Iho MN* uiMoa.l of j..>ini; .islmiv, w.ml.l lli.-v ..nni'il.- Ilial \m- -limil.l In- ain Mtor>vff' Siipimso, ,1, ||i,> n.ilt!i,-,,| llii-si- :i„ii,i,iU, wh.-n lln-\ .-.i in Jho> »onl l,> \\w \'oU,h\\ tln-i,- wilhm Ihr,-,- iml.-s ami iln-ii Nniini; \\v\i< liMiii, iiHiliinil 'iihI iiil'Ci) rtdllM IIimI imil>i- ii mi;(' in 'iiii liiy/uir Hllll «(• lliui' (I'll |.,,| iiM ■, ' III Mii|i|ih'ii' (III Mr mHiM '-Mtil. ii-i I '.iikI |i(' I HIi'A, lllill Ov-ilcM wMll MMJliilr Imi Mil' |iinjiiiill' vS'llv, ll M V('( V II 1 1| III 1 1' hi fliMl 1 1 i'liiiil II illMi'ii III I' lllill 1 1 III Iff lllill ll ||. jiiiiii i|i|i ' I hill i" mil 'I llilli-IMK I- lllill I 111 II' I , nil, w II f. Ill 1 1 I ll'il !i 'lllli IMIM lli,ll «ll'l I'M I liiiil ll III liiliili in lill II ; M IIIM Mill I lliilli III' iliMl'- '.I III/ iilllliiilllV lii||i|i I (III! Ill liimi III il III nil '.NM'i lii(i S'liiilui Miiii.,111 .. i|iii".liiiii Ml I ii'.l. I jiiil 1 mill in-v limiil « "III III llli' \i|: -villi (l'|i|||l| hi |||l> I'loill lillllli-4 (,| ( I y|(,l) If JH (lllllll lli'i'lll'lll.ill Nil, (^ 1,1 |M| I I'll .lllill ill. IjillllIM W'llMIl IK'l' Y'lll MtI'IiIii' ImiKI ' IVIl l'll|ll|IH I'l; I !(.! Ill ll.l' lll'll Willlllli 1,1 Mil I llll.ll Klllll-i \ j'ji- li'li'. I lir III ;Miliil|it|i I' III llii'.i' wumI'' W'lllll"!" Ill^'lli (l ll'll'iiili ll, -(ll,,., ( llijil i|,'|iIm|.,||.,i, ,11, :, ,11, Hill), 'I i;, 11,1, I'l'llll ll'lllll • III Hill I'iImimI Iiv Ii'iiiI'I 'IihI i.flll'l vcnill'' l|, '|lllllhli;.' I Inn (,| Id- III Mil, I lllill "I ir'i.ii, \\lll|iii|l 'in III, I .,'-ilv HI l.iwlnl CililHi, I'll (it III,' II, Mill , III) , III, I, ' " Mi"|,i',l",l ) III \l i|i"lv ,. |.i',|.iiif" ,iii,| II .'Mine, ((i. I,<, , Huh ■/ (III, I, ".I'l Hill 111 I, HI 111 ll I |'l"!i III III II Iiv (,, ,^ ,, I Hill ll I I 111' III, 11 I, ill, I/,': llll i||,,|)|„|l,l|| ""'''"I !'"• Iti'i " 'i I'lll liMi'iilti'l, licUVdI'll (ti<' KiKt Hf .liifilKify i,|,/( "i" ' ii'l "I M'lil, ■" '"■'•• 'I ll 111" I I 'I III IhIiI'I mill (llll I ii'l III 'ii,',i mill I m .ii,/ yniif I" I'l'lllli 1' llliH, III, iKlill' ,,l II,, |, III lllill,,,, ,,, di', Ml,, 'I H, II,' , 1,1 ijlil,' ),M(, "ll- ' 'I ^I"l' III" llHlllll' HI )l',.. Ill,,' 11,, I ,H,( j,IH, i.llll,,.;. ll, Ih ( |H',|„ r l|'M(lllH(i',(| " "'ii'l "I'l "liillni MM', |,' lllill, i! ll ill I." Iiwdil (hi i,ny \,i-i*',ii (,l (.('fV«ln (i.'il illllH II rHIHIIlKilHli 111 tMiii'iiil liHiii III ('if. (..: I|r(' (ii|l'(,,,'<(i i,f IliN I|i>|ii||ii|Ih|| III Mill, I mill .,i,|/ , || |,hiiI hi nlf,"!' vc-ii''!, IiikI (,iMy l|i(, .itidd (/, ill' "iiui'iili'iil |, llll III |,|.,. , II, 11,1 I i,iH,( |,„ |,i'. I I ,i(m,(, Aiiil /'vcry kii'Ii Ii'i.i HI iillii'i \i ■ I'l i'l li'ii In i)„. |',i, ,1 !, ,1,1, (,, |.,,|, ll,,,,. |,y , III, i„« h( .iiiy »',iM'Mi,i ^llll' I' *' 111" I'm 'iHll'.lliil Hill, H 1,1 IHI", llll .11, ll ll ill ll. i.ihI, |,,H' ,|,l"Hf'llHl/lv I**" lliii'l 11" 1' "I I" II, 11 • 'll liM Vl!i|i'ilv mill Hii" liiinl III Km ,„.(.i.',i, ^f,/ii,t/<-r I'l'"'"' "'"ir ""I' I" i ll HI lllill, I n,ii III mil 1,1 iJH' j„,iii ,,v,,|,.,',4^ II,,, I ,..i,,i|,| ,i,...iro«( Ml*- '/"' /i/ii/ ll I'll, iHiil llll' ,„./„ /, ,/ ll ,.|| I li'ii i,^ .,^|,;,| ^„|,|,( hiij.j, ft to il All' N>,' ll, ilinlii lull' IImI llll' iiH'.iliiiiH 1,1 IJHil .|,,ti:!' ', (f,,,( if ;,rjv "'•-'■i' III'!"' I 'I'"' 111 ,1 hi V, , I li.ij! ll" li.iii lll'll 1,H , 1 "i.i'fi III iM 'I"' I'' ' "' III" '.'.iiii'l 11, ll liHi.'imi' ll 11 liiH-iili .'ui.j.'cl 'AilU'l. iid'l (•">;)< li'i III- M • ll imili'i i|,, l.r, 1,1 ,,,11," ,,||,,., i|i|lii,ri, I!m' All! ;;(v.' Inm lll'll I'MmIi'I", ll" 1.1,1. 1\ I lillH' Hull. .,1(1, l||||,||lii|<. |ImI ,, . ill"-. H-fK'ifJIlic ^iii'iii'iii 'III' ;'"iii;\ mull 1 Mil' (,,i,|,'i linn ,,! II,,' jlrili-j, flsiK ihl', 'h" ,- im iiiili.'l,il,|.- rdfirin- it if w»-ri: not tiinli'i- lll'll iiciilii'limi I, II,;, I III i,|Himi(iH .,1 lli^t 'liiliilf' f- 0(;i» /'Ii.hI iii\ liMiiiiii riH'iiij , i|i',ii'i 11 , (i, mill In, III liij., I.'i'liiiic.'ll ;tr^-Uf(i»rflt i- Id — I!l!l(l - llic general applicabilily ol" slaliilcs llial tlic real ivadiii}; of llial staliilc is tlial, if any ptM'son. mulcr llic IJrilisli lla^, slioiild (i('|iroila(e u|iiiii llicsts oyslers within tlie prohibiled liine, his vessel is liable to sei/.ure ami roii- (isealioM ; linl if he eanie (here under any other flaj; in the world lliat he could fiel use 1)1', wliellicr il is his own or not, then lie may exierniinale these a! pleasure, is Ihal wlial il nieaus* Is thai Ihe ('onstrn''tion that it Nvoidd receive? Is il lh(> consli'iiclinn Ihal il ou^dil lo rt>ceive? Senator Morgan. — II could not he meant as a hoverinf; pro- vision. Mr Phelps. — One would Ihiuk not. The lanj;iia;;e is hroad enoufjh. I shall have occasion pi'clly soon, in another eonneclion, to considiM' just exactly, legidly, what is the nn-aniiif; of such a statute. 1 am now upun the };c'iu'ral suhject. Have they shown ns that in this case, or in any other of those thai hiiv(! heen referred lo, and that 1 shall i-el'er to aj^ain — have they shown ns thai \\\'aiiy cas(> either Ihal an individual has heen permillcd with impnnily lo viidale any such statute made for Ihe protec- tion of any such product, oi' Ihal any nation in Ihe worlil in diplomalie eori'cspondence. itv in any other wav , has challenp'd the rij;lil , oi' asserli'd the ri^hl (dils citi/.ens to f;o and parlicip,ile? II is the ii^nfir Ihal we ai'c; talking ahout. II is llii' nsa;;i- and custom of nations Ihal my friend savs makes inlernalional law; and il nndonlileiily does when such nsai;i> and custom has heen suriicicniK e:.press(!(l. and il ciui mdv he cxpresseil hy aciiuicscence. I ndnniiledly, on a point where llu' nsajic and ciislmu of nations can lie reiiarded as cslahlislied, he is (piiti' ri^'lii. in sayinj;lhal makes Inlernalional law. and max make il to such an < \lent that \(Ui can- ned cminlervail il, even upon prelly sli'on;; moral (insideralions. Thiil is wlial we are lalkinu idioul. Wc ai-c not eui;:.:;(Ml in Ihe discussiim (if the uiMieral principles of lli(> e\|cnl and applicahililv of particular statutes whether lliey are or' are not sunu'times defensive re;:idatious, whether they inav or iua\ not he e\|en led lieyond the three mile line. Thai is not the poinl. What is Ihe usaj;e ,and cnslom of nations in pracliic. in pniul ol fact, in re.uard lo pioperlv of this kind umler similar comliliims - - w.akei' alwa\s — • hul similai'.' Now I icpeal Ihe (piestiou : Instead of this Mrj;nmi'nl on the ^enei'ai pr'o|posilious Ihal nojiodv de- nies, animilai' propertv which \mi have not hrouphl forward. ;i nalion which has nndcilaken lo protect it ami hnild ujian industry upon it. has found itsidf incapahie of enforeing ils ri;j;hts, and has permitted foreij;ners lo c(nne tliei'e and invade il to liV.H — tlio oxlenl of doslriictioii, or (o any pxlciit al all. wlicllicr lo llic e\- Iciil (if (ii'striiclioi). Ilavc! Iliisy ^;()l such an iiislaiice? .Not om\ Slar- liiii; willi my Icariioil (ViiMiil's |)ni|)o>iili()ii, thai il is llii; iisajfo ol' na- tions, jiisl or inijnsi, rijilil nr wroni; — that il is what tin? nations liavc consiMilt'il lo llial makes international law — lliiil it is of no nse for us to talk ahont till' principles of jnslice, ofrijjhl, of the fiindainental ideas that undoi'lio the law of necessity, the nei'(!ssily of mankind, the policy, till! <(imity of nations-do mil talk ahoul tiiat-siiow ns what the u.ii/ije of nations has hecn. Well, wi\ undertake lo show land tliei'e isnocontra- dictiini in th,' evidence in this resjiecli what the usajj;e of nations /iti.s' heen in (;veiy siniilai' case thai wc know of. Do they produce any other case estaldishin^ a dilVerenl precedent? Do tli(!y show that, in any of these, invasiiin has lieen permitted? Do they shown anv cliallenf^c or (jueslion so lliat they can say; the usaf;,(! is not universal it is not ahso- lide, siun(d)ody has disputed, it in sume case? .Not one. I$ul thev sav : slalules do rmt operate iieyoud tiie jurisdiction of the countrv that enacts Ihcni ". Does tlui power of llie couutry icall il iiv what name \ou please), operati; to the extent of prolectiiii; this industry wlielher it is inside of the liu'ee-mili! line or not? T/in is IIk; (pieslion. Not what is the lecdinicai etl'ect of a statute. \\ hat is the actual ellect of siudi slalules, whether it is 1(1(1 years ^H• more thai lliey have pi'evailed in all pai'ls of tlie earth. .My learneil friend who ju>t miw was so eleai' that (he pasu:ip(H'l of lln'ir I'i^ht to protect llio-r seal I'isheries 12(1 miles mil :il ~i'a. M\ friend cites the samt; passaii'e that I have I'ciid as sliowin.n IImI lli'ii' ri^iiil In Ilie I'eml f'islie- ries is nmpu'slionalile. N'altel says so. l!ut Ihis uiorniir. .■ inluims us that N'attel is ver\ clearlv applviuf; it onl\ to tlie tree-mile limit. Sir Charles Russdll. — I wa- not I'elei lini; Id that passa^ie in tin' oii servaliiiu I made. Mr Phelps. — I'lial passaj;e was I he only ^uhjeel of discussion ;,| Iheliini'. Sir Charles Russell. — Tliev are not in the same section at all — not in the same c:iiinecticin. Mr Phelps. — I am referrinj; lo the passajiv lliat I I'ead from the I iiiled Stall's' Ai'fiiiment this mornitii;, Iteinu one serlion and a part ol llie iii'vl -eriioii, ;iiid till' ipii'-liou arose — il was sii;:;;i'-|ed li\ his l.ord- -' ' 'lial perhaps tlial nuK was :i vei'v circuinlornlorv llial is m\ expres- sion: not his i.iiiiUhip s wa\ in which \altel meant to siiv Ihiit liie rif;lit was I'xi hi^ixe witliin '■> iiiiles. TJial wa^ tlie pniiit. and ni\ friein" sa\s \er\ eieariv that is wlial it ineaiis, ainl llie I'ontexl >liow^ it: and 'I in the Dri-tish Arf;ninent, at paf^e .■)!. \ou will tind this pa■^sal;e ri'I'erred to in Mipporl of the ckiim llial lliev there make that their rii;lil lo these I'earl iMsherii's which lliev have had from linn' immi'iiiorial, i'^ un(|ncs- tioued ; and I hex i;ive there the vei'v 'iieaiiin.u and the eoirecl mraniiif; lo the pa>>ai;e from \atlel that I ^ave il I his moi'iiini:. — 1 392 — Now my friends may liave lliis oik; may or llio oilier. II does not so miicli slainl upon wlial Valtel says, eminent as he is ; il is a good slarliufj; point to find the proposition so i'eliciliously slated by so great a writer. Cast lliat aside : what isllie usage of mankind in regard to these various kinds of properly? Tliey say : there is no analogy helween oysters and seals — llial is in anotiier passage. Well, what is Ihe reason that there is not? — and, if there is a dilference, wliieh way does liie dillercnee make? Both are marine prodnels to a eertain extent —the oysters exclusively so. Tliey nevei' eome ashore — never loneli the IJi'ilish leiritory : tiie seals do <'ome ashore, and Ihey have to. They are produced there and they remain there a eoii-iderahle part of Ihe lime. Now what is Ihe reason that there is not an aualogv? and, so fai' as the analogv fails, which way does it mark? In which is the case the strongest for the right of |)rotccli()u if there is a diU'ei'ence hetwc-en the two cases? There is the case ol ihe Mexican I'earl I'isheries. 1 will nol read those Sla'.iiies iigaiii. As I havc^ said, they have lieen read once, and Ihes are in point liefire you. We know whal llieii' elfecl is. liul I will just hriid'ly refer to ihc map. If you will have Ihe kindiurss. Sir, lo glance at Ihe map it is al page 18(1 of the lirsl volume of Ihe I'niled Stales" .Vppendix. Yon will see there laid oul — and il has nol been (|ueslioned in the llrilish C.onnler Case thai it is laid out cori'eclly) — Ihe exieni of Ihe Tislierit's Ihal are IIhm'c proleclccl. Those I'cd and blue concessions — Ihal is the space in which these o\s|i'rs are I'oniid) — are each ."i kilomelrcs in width. Now. Ihe lechiiical opriaiiou of these Statutes I will con-idi'i' by anil b\e allogelhi'r — what has /(//c// //A/^v wilhcgard lo those l'"i-;hei'ies? Have Ihey (.-ver been permitted lo be iuvadeo Itv Ihe (iovernmeiit id' Is Ihere proof Ihal somebody has gime lliere sailing under Ihe Hag of uiaidtiud and claimed lo lake a hand in lliose l''i>heries in Ihe sea oulside of Ihe lliree mile liinil. .iiid Ihal Ihe Mexican (iovei'nmenl have pi'rmilled l.im lodo il ; or Ihal an\ nalion lias a'-scilcil any such right? Tlio>e laws a|ipi\ in leruis Id fureigiier^. bul I la\ mo stress upon Ihal. ^ou cannot extend Ihe juriMlicliiin of a slalulc. Ii\ Ihe words of the slalule ilsi'lf be- gond Ihe power whirli llic ualioii lias lo pass such a slalule. Il'a Slalule diii's uol operale bc\onil llh' iiM'i-Jii'lion df Ihe niunlrx Ihal cnails il. il laiinol be made lo operale b\ parsing ainilhi'r Slalub' in Ihal cniniiry Ihal il shall. Tlii' passing of Ihe second slalule i^ no more operalive lliaii Ihe lii>l. I ia\ no more slir^^ cxcepl for a pm'po-e I >\\;[\\ louu! lo li\ and bye , iipiin lln' fad llial mans of liii'-r >lalnles — liolli liiilish and I'oreign — are general in llii'ir terms, and m.iuil'eslK appl\, mi far as Ihe language gnes, to furcigni'is. Thai i> as il is piil in auollur part of Ihc arguiui'ul — I care; iiolliiug almul il here — I am upon llir ipii'-linn of whal has taken plan' mner >urli slalules. lidernalioiial law i- not imule by any nation pa^>ing a >laluli' — it is the ac(|nie--ci'nce of mankind in Ihe assertion that makes Inlei'nalional law. There i> where il cinnes from. - li»!)3 — Now fake llic mailer of llio (-oral Heofs. The IVencli law protect iiij; that product will lie i'oiiiul in Volume I of the Liiitoil Slates Ap|)en(iix |taj{e id'.l. Yim will liiid opposite page '.()'.) on the map, liie area of the Coral lislieries on llie coast of Alj^eria whicii arc protected by the Frencii law. The second article from tiie Decree of th.e Kith May IHG2 is quoted in French at page i09; and the translation is this : Upon lilt) request of Un' GX|)i'rt lislinrinnn of Ihoir ruprosentalives, or, lor Hid want olllieiu, of tiio syuilirales (orjfiiiiizutioiis) of sea-fnriuK inon, certain lislieries may bi' ti'niporarlly forbidden over an extent of sea situated beyond throe miles from till' slinrc, if such inoasure is re(|iiirod in Hie interest of the preservation of Hie bed nf the sea or of a lisliery niniposed of mi^tratoiy lislies. You will see on tiie map !hc extent to wiiich that runs out, which is considerahle. I do not know that the exact lignres are given — 7 miles I am told that extends out. The .Australian Pearl Fisheries will he seen indicated in a previous map opposite to page 'i()8. Von will see how very oxiensivo they are — much heyond any limit of tei-ritorial jurisdic- tion and llial statiile is by its lerms, restricted tn Itrilish subjects and boats in the lerms of its provision. II has been remarked upon by my I'l 'ends on the other side. IJul there again what ever the elfecl of the sta- tute luiiy b(! Iho same (pieslion oc<'urs : what has taken place? Is that a business that is open lo mankind at large? lias it ever been attempled? The Italian Choral iieds have been referred to. The (loral beds of Sardi- nia and Sicily, Ihe forme'' is from 'i to I,'! miles from the land; the latter is I i to '-Vl miles from Ihe land. The maps relalive to those will be found opposite pagi's 170 and \12 showing the extent id' these •• lislieries ", if that is a currecl term. One niiip is of Ihe corenl beds of Sardinia and the (dher of the coral beds of Sicilv. Voii will see lo whaldislance they extend. \iu\ those sla- tules are general in their lei'uis so thai by the language ol the slalnles they would apply lo foreigners It was oltserv(!d by the Marijuis N'enosla when thai was under ilisciissiiui before — I believe when my associate was speaking — thai he did ind iindersluud lliose Slalnles lo apjily to foreigners, bul that foreigners did nol go Ihere. Well that is the point ujioii wliicli I am Miiw. Has Sicily, n^'th of close lime prescribed by any such Order shall not he sborler llian thai prescribed for the time bein;; by till' Irish Fishery (', niissioners in res|)ect of beds or banks witbiu the exclusive fishery limits cd' Ihe Itrilish Islands. Kvc'ry such Order shall be bindinj; on all lirilish Sea Tishin- Hoals and on any (dher Sea lishin,!,' boats in that behalf specilied in the Order, anil on the crews ofsuch boats. .Now there we have in explicit terms that Ihe sliilule uullioriscs the Orders in Council (o extend to cvorylhing. Well, says my friend, Ihey have not extended Ihem. I do not know whether Ihey have or not. If he says Hint, I take his slatcmenl. Lord Hannen. — That reipiires a lillle explanalion. It is only giving the power lo the Crown liy liie advice of (he Privy Council lo do ccM'tain thin;,'', in eerliiin evenls. Mr Phelps. — I am (piite aware of that. Lord Hannen. — II is a eommon mode. It is oidy to j^ive the power of exercise: hiil ofeonr-c it has no elTect. Mr Phelps. — I am (piile aware of it. Il is a slatule that {jivos power lo issue Orders in Coutu'il thai woidd eompreheud olhers. Now if Kni^land has nol that power, how can that statute confer it hy Oi'ders in Council '.' Sir Charles Russell. — Thai is explaiin'd in the .Vrgnmenl at pajre "10. Lord Hannen. - II is lo enahle Ihe crown lo enler into Convenlions, and olher lhin,!,'s, willioul Ihe Ironhle of fioinj; lo Parliament. Mr Phelps. — I should have said if the remark had nol come ""lom your l.(M'dshi|) Inil from Ihe argument on the olher side — that that was a far-felched conslrnction. Lord Hannen. — I am oidy lelling you Ihe fact; deal with it as yon think III. Mr Phelps. The slalule eonlains no such reference. The statute is : I'jvcry such Order shall be biniliutf eii all Uritish Sea iMshinji; lloats and on any other' Sea I'ishin;.' Ho its in that behalf specilied in the Order. — lfl!t,S — Senator Morgan. — Has llic shiliile been repenlcd. Mr Phelps. — .No not llial I know of. I l)elicvc it is not cluirncd fo liave bi'cn repealed. Senator Morgan. — hoes a Mritisli Treuly repeal an .\ct of I'aiiia- nhMit? Mr Phelps. — Yon are lakinjj; me beyond my deplli wlien yon pnt thai qiH'stion, Sii- — I slionid snppose not. linl bis I.ordsiiip woidd Ite ii belter auliiorily l)y I'ar on llial snbjeet. and so wonld my learned IVicnds tii(! .MIoi'ney (iencrai and Ibe ^',/' .Mtcn-ney (ieneral, than I am. I should tliink not. What its elleet may be nn(h'r the United Stales Constilnlion would be |)er!iaps a diU'erenl (jueslion. Senator Morgan. — Under the IJniled Stales ('.onstitntion an .Ad ol" C.on^'ress wonld rejieal a Treaty : A Ti-eiily would never repeal an Ael ol" C.onjiress. Mr Phelps. — It is said by my learned friends — lliis is suji^'esled as a reason of thai shitnle — with IIk; extreme parlienlarily willi wiiieh I'lnjilisb stalut(>s an; usually drawn I suppose it would iiav. I do not know, Sir, that, aside from lliese Herring Fisheries, (lysler-Heds, Pearl Oysters, and (^oral, there is any other descriplion of projjcrly now known in liie world that comes wiliiin llie purview of this principle, excepi it be liie seals. Now what about the seals? What is the protection that has been ex- tended to liiem? And before entering upon liiat brancii of (lie subject, as it is wilhin two or three minutes of the lime of adjournment, perhaps it would be convenient for you to bear me afterwards. The President. — Oiiile so. The Tribunal then adjourned for a siiort time. Mr Phelps. — I h()|)e. Sir, I shall not be found tedious in pursuing tiiis line of illuslration, or rather of historic precedent over wbi( b I shall pass as fast as I can and couh' to the particular point of Ibe jirotection liiat has been afforded to the seal in the various countries, — all llie counlries 1 believe in which it is now lo be found, and the conse(pienc(! of the want of il in those countries in which il formely existed and from which it has now gone. The lirsl instances thai I shall allude to are under — the Imperial (iovernmenl of Creat lirilain, but in force in its Colonies. In the 1st United Slates' Appendix, at pages 'i-'Ki and i;]7 will be found the Act for the prolcclion of seals in .New Zealand— an abstract nnining llirougli several pages IW.ilMland I'lO of Ihe Acts and a Map. It is said by m\ learned friends in regard lo the map and I lliiid^ they are right in this criticism, that the map as drawn contains or carries an erroneous im- pression of the elVect of tin; Act lixing the boundary o\' the Province of New Zealand that while the map is correct in giving Ibe limits of lali- lude and longitnd(! which are described iis constituting the Colony, thai il was n(d the intention of the Act lo assert such a jurisdiction over all the inlermediate sea, but only lo make llial a boundarv so as to include wilhin it all Ihe land and islands with the usual lerritorial limits, and that the map as drawn in view of the Acl is calciilaled perhaps lo produce a false impression. Certainly that was nol the inlention of llie genllcman who prepared this map: but I lliink Hie ohsei'valion ofm\ friend is well — lit',)- — t'oiindcd upon timl. Neitliur is il in (he leiisl inalcrial to our purpose, iieiflicr would il he inalerial to our purpose lo assert that, hecause us I helieve I reniarked this uiorning iiolhiiif; can he dearer than that the jiu'isdietioii u|)on the hi^h seas of a country cannot he arhitrarily extended to geographical limits, asials, and any %x'ssel nrhoalon hoard of which any seal so illogally taken, nr Ihc skin nil, hnihher, or ntlier product of a -eal '•n ille- gally taken, shall he found, shall, tugi'ther with Iho Imals, furnilure, and apimrle- tiances of such \ essel cir hoat In' forfeili d tn Her Majesty, and shall lie disi.csud of as (he (liinnnis-ioncr may think lit. Tliero II IV oilier vi>ry stringent provisions. There is one in seel ion 7 that provides in etl'ccl lliat any ol'licer of llial (ioverniniMil shall lune power hi enter ii|ion and search any vessel williin the jiirisdielidu of liie rmveniment ol' Hie Colony (if New Zealand I'oriiny seal or (lie product of anv soul. I need ikiI go lliroiigli willi the delails of lliis proleetion; it is euougli III sii\ llial lliev are such iiieasures as are very properly and in- lelligeiilK adopleil hy that (lovernmeiil for (he |irolecliou of the seal, and whellier lliey are grealer or less, or right or wi'ung, in Iheiiselves, does mil alVecl (lie principle. Now here again I he same ohsei'valion which 1 have liiid occasion to make liefore is applicahle. Diiring all this period and Ihroiigh all these; Ads. if Ihi' practical operation of them diii'iug many \ears has been only to coiiirol lirilisli subjects and Itrilish shi|)s. and if il be true thai the seal (isheries of .New Zealand have been open lo Hie world during this I'Mie or an\ pari of il. or if such an assertion has ever been iiiude. evidence of il would have been forlhcon ing, because m\ learned friends, of course, and those who instruct then are (piile in possession of all the records. — I SKIS — anil all llio iirrormiitioii and knovNlt'dfji- Ihal is lo lie rurnislu'd Ity the (iovenuntMitut' .New Zealand, on lliis sulijctl, and we arc not. >'()\> loulv al il tor a siii;j;le nidnienl. Is llicrc a sinjjle s|Mit in llie world where llie I'nr seal is ivnown ever lo have lieen Ihal il has not heen made the snhjerl ol'iiursnil tVoin the very pndilahle resnils of such piu'- snil? Is there a plaee? We have seen in Ihe pronress of tliis ease thai on almost every spot in the world exec|)l these Islands in llehrinj; Sea, the seal has not heen only |inrsned, liiit exterminated. In two or three lo<'alilit!s, nnder the inlliienee of sueli proteetion as has heen adopted al a eomparalively late day, when attention was called to the value of il — in two or three localities like the Kohos Islands, and sneli places, there is a remnant of the seal. .Now if the .New Zealand seals liad heen optMi dn- rnii; all this lime to ^'eneral jjursnit as my learned friends contend, the Itehrin^ Sea seals should he and are, how happens il Ihat that place alone has heen free from IIk^ attacks of tliesi; vessels that have f;one to llie utmost parts of the eiirtli, as the evidence shows foi' Ihe purpose of depo- pidaliufi' anil evterminalinf; Ihe seal Islands. This then appears thai under these Statutes which on Ihe face of them appeal to everyhody — under lluM'il'ecl of those Stalules in Ihe dislricls shown by Ihe ma|i, the seal has heen protected, and the world — that is, such jiortion of the world as could have any interest in Irespassinj; upon it — has ac([niesee(l in that. Then the Falkland Islands is another |ilace where at a later period — as late as 1881 — measures wei'e adopted for this purpose. Il was an Ui'dinance lo |)r(ivi(ie for Ihe eslahlishment of a close time in IIks seal fishery of Ihe I'alklaml Islands and Iheirdepcndencies, ami the seas adja- cent thereto: and Ihepreamhie is : — Wlii'i'Ciis the sr.il lislii'iy iil' llicsc isliinils wliirh w.ls al unc lime a senrre of pnilll ,111(1 adviOitaffc In llie inlniiisls lias Ijci'ii i-xhaiisliMi liy iiulisriiiiiinale aliil Wiislelul llsliiiiff. ami il is ili'siialili' In i evive and |ii'oti'cl this iuduslrv hv (he eslahlishnieul of a clcisi' lime, dtiiiiii; whiidi il sli.iil lie milawl'iil In kill nr caiiluii' seals williiii lie' limiN of this cnlniiy .mil ils de|ii'ndeiicies. lie il therefore enacled. and so forth. That is the reason and Ihe lirsl reason is why no peisiin shall kill or allempi lo capture, and without stoppiiifi lo read Ihe various provisions which will he simmi lo apply in Iheir terms to any person, any ship, any masler oi' sailor, and that every description of seal incliuliiif;; some varieties that are not sli'ictly of the I'aimly of the fur seal. Sir Charles Russell. — Within Ihe limits of the Colony, Mr Phelps. — W'ilhiu the limits of the colony and ils dependencies, yes. II does not appear there, — I think the conti'ary does appear — Ihal the sealing;' is not pelajjic. I 9 — il hy llic limits oC llic Coidiiy and we shall si-e pri'spiitly Hint tliul is (lie Iruo (nit!slioii involved. i may say in passiii}; what I mi^'hl itrllcr luivi' said at lht> l>c;j;iniiiii|; of Ihis afternoon, thai lliis prolcclion of Hie seal, shown lo he nniversnl now as far as Ihoro are any seals let'l, is a very imporlant eonsideralion, or will he a very important eonsidei-ation when we come to discuss the extent of the freedom of tin; sea. It will he seen, as I pass over these instancies, that in every spot wheris llierc! arc any s(!als now, even in pla- ces where Ihey have heen so nearly exIerminatiMl, that il is almost (pies- lionahle whether it is worth while lo li'v lo restore Ihem ; like these very I'alkland Islands and some other places. Wherever there are seals enonjih to alFord any prospect of usefulness in attempting; to protect them, lliere Ihey are protected. So that iftheri^'hl exists lo come here and exterminate this race npon the hi^di seas, why then it follows thai ymi may do on thi' hi);h seas what l\n\ inhahilants of this rountry ai'e prohihited hy llieir own laws from doinj; within their jurisdiction, — what is pndiihiled hy Hie laws of every coimlry wliere the same animal is still lo he found. Now, it is said hy my learned friend, Sir Itichard Wehsler, thai the casiiofthe " Harriet ", which was a vessel helon^inj; lo tlue I'nited Stales thai was captured on the Falkland Islands, — the corresj)ondenc(! in respect to it contains some lan};iia;;e lending' lo show that the ("lovern- meiit of the I'nited Stales did not reco^nii/i' any rij;ht lo interfere' with Ihem upon the lii^,h seas, hut asserted the contrary. My learned friend is wroiij; in the interence that he draws from lliat ease, except lo the very limited extent that I shall point out. The citrrespondance will he found in the Counter Case of llie I'nited Slates at |ia;i-e IHi. The American vessel, the " Harriet ", which was seized there was seized for lakinj,' seals on Hie Talklaiid Islands: and, of course, there can he no (|ui'stion ahoiit the illefjalily of that, or the propriety of Hie seizure ; hut the case fell for discussion into Hu^ hands of some gentleman not named, who was a IJuited States C/iuri/i' f/Wf/'nircx lo the IJuenos .Vyres' Minister, llial is to sav, he was the Secretary of the Le};ation at iiiienos . Vyres, which is not a vei'v f-real fiCiiation, and had the ^ood foi'lune to he ahle to deal with Ihis sultject in the ahsence of his principal, whoever il was. Thos(! who have paid much attention to diplomacy have hecome aware that Hie ahlesl l.iplomatisis are lliosi; who consume llii' least ink in des- patches that have to he printed; like the wise (leneral who saves Hie hlood of his Army, wise l)i|)loinalists know the less that is put on paper lo he laid before Parliament w Conijress the heller; and, therefore, one lolerahlv good nu-ans of ascertaining the merit of any hiplomalisl is to set! with how much or how little correspondence of thai soi-t lie has heen ahle lo conduct lln alVair. When yon strike such a man as MrSlratfoid Canning;, one of the really grea! diplomatists of hi-; time, il is astonishing how little lilcratnre Vwii are ahle lo gather from his pen. He accom- plished resul'.-, and the results are Hiei'e; the means hy which tliey were — anno - aci'(iiii|)lislii'il lire iiol rmlli niiiiiii}; : iiiiil il is dih' hI' {\w must striking tilings iiliniil liiis It'issiiiii ('(iiitrovcrsy, lliiil I sliull liavo SDini'tliiiig tn do witli l)\ and ii\i>. Iiuw little llicii' is tVoni the pen of such ii man as Mr Stratford Canning. Knl tluM-o is another class ot' di|ilonialisl, it' yoii can dignil'v tlicni li\ such a name, a class of di|t!omatist of less disliiir- tion. and oi' whose lahoiirs the resnits are generally wanting Iml who lose no o|i|i(n'tnnitv loetdighten the worhl hy the discnssion of those abstract |iro|iositions thai wise nations and wise statesmen avoid the discnssion of jnst as far as Ihey can. I do not Know who this yonng gentleman was, his name has not survived; hnt young or old, I shonhl judge from his style he was not past the period of inniginaliiMi. Sir Charles Russell. lie sa\s he is stating the views of his dovern- menl. Mr Phelps. — I'ndonhtedly he is staling the views of his (lovernmenl, as expressed h\ himself. A Chari/r f/'.ty/(///v'.\ alwa\s does (ixpress the views (d' his (io\erninenl in what he >-ays; hnt whether he had I'eeeived special insti'uclions froni any statesmen in his (iovernmeul to discuss as (pieslion that was no! raided is nid shown; and IVinn my knowludgn of the statesman who ha (pieslion that was iiol up. lie does disi'iiss in this what fnlmiiiations would have heeii laiiiudied h\ lhi> Cniled States (iiivernnient against anyhody llial had seized a ve^^id on Ihe high sim, ou the |ireleiice thai il was doing some- Ihinglhal had iiol heeii doiii'; and what he says on thai siihiecl may go for wlial il is Worth as far as i| is aiilliorilv. Itiil Ihe ease pi'eseiits nothing evcepi liie righl of Ihe aiilhorilies lo caplii'e thai vessid for going on to Ihe I'alkland Ulands liiem>el\('s and killing Ihe seal. That is all llii're is of il. What he say-- on Ihe general sulijecl is uo| one leiilli part id' llii' cmisi'ipience of wlial I'ilher of in\ learned friends sav on liial snhjecl, liecanse Ihey are >o iiincli more eompeleiil to discuss il, if Ihey waul to discuss il, than he his. Now. till' depiisilioii (d' C.aplain Undington is lo he found in tlii; Jnd V(dnnie of the I'niled Slates Appendix al page.'l'.KJ ami throws a little light upon this vexed i|ue>lion of how far these Slaliiles and Itegiilations and provisions are aclnally in force, lie was a master mariner, and a sealer down ill the Anlarclic. and who had made, as he savs, several voyages lo the Soiilhern hemispliiM'e fur Ihe purpose of seal hiiiiling and was tho- roughly acipiainled with the islands coasts .iiid so on. lie s|M>aks of various loealilii's in which the Seals had lieen found when he had visited und hel|)ed to exlerminale them. One is I'.ilagoiiia. There, he .says. Ilieal (piioitilii's liiive Ik'i'ii Uiken fioiii llie I'^aslcni Tdiisl, liiit al present lucre .ire 111! s.'iils UiiTi'. ■JOOt TIUMI. Torni ()i)l Piit'Kii mill Win i>huiiN in llic viciiiily. Tlii-ii- Maiiili wcri' iil mit' limc> very iiliiiiiilatit in simIs ainl wi'ii' cdnsiili'icd anidiix llic ln'sl innkriiiH I vi'in IS'.M |S!i-j | look (Hily !iim) anil llii< niaj'irily III' llii'si' canin I'luin anollicr poi umor tlii' cnasl wliirli hail iiol licon wiirkoil for Iwulvi! or lll'li'tMi yrars. Tliousamls ol' skins hail lorini'i'ly lu'en lakuii rrotn lliusu IslaiiilH hut llic iiiiiiiiah arc prarlirally rxtinrl Ihi'ri' loilay. Hut what I \Mis riiijiiii^ iil is this : Falklaiiil Islands. .U onu liini'llii'M' i-lamls wero vrry aliiiiulanl in simI lilV.liiil I'.M-i'ssiw anil inilisiriniinali' killing has ni'arly aniiihilali'il ihi'Mi; lliis fart was roiof,'nizeil liy Ihi- pivi'rniii ril ul till' Nlanils, whiili passcil an oiilinanri' in ISSI i'slalilishiii(,' a rlosi' si'ason limn nilolii'i- In .Vjiril. II will hit n'rullcili'il. Inin^' in tlut Aniairlii', this is Ihi: op|ios||i' pcrioil of IIk' vimi', lor llii' isjamls anil tin- sras ailjaoMil Ihi'rulo. .My iiiiilcr^laiiiliiiK <'l' Ihi^ oriliiianri> was llial Ilic (iovi'iiiint'iit wonlil sri/.c. any vessi'l lakinn '^imU rlosi- to or within IS or 'JO mill's of Ihii islands. It ccrluinly, wniild not liavi' lu-cn allowod to lakn seals hclwui'ii Ihu talkland* and lleaiirhi'iii' Island -iS iiiilis dislani, wliirli is i-onsidi'ii'd part of Iho^rolip. I iindcrs- t Mhis oi'dinaiicc was passi'd oil till' ;;iiiiini| llial lli>' seal i i'siirtin<,' lo IIicm' is- lands was Ihi' propiily of Hit' llovriiiMinil, and Ihi'iclorc it had a li^llt to jiii.li'rl llii'iii I'VoiywhiMi'. The (Iom'i iiinriil , liowi'vcr, (.mm' liciiiscs lo certain parlies .il friiiii /. NO to /. Ion a .\.ar lo lake seals dnriiiK the close season. On aecoiiiil of lliesi! liei'iisi's I think the I'llVrt of the ordinanre is niillitleil, allhon^'h the islands arc well (iiiarded, and seals havi,' increased very lillle if at all, hocanse of allowing hiiMtiiiK to take place under lliese licenses. .Now it is s:ii(l hy my ieni'iii'ii rrii'iids, itiid said truly, Iliis is Ilic iiiiiii'i's.- aiiiliiij; of Ihal man. \\ hu is he' .\ scaler wii, hii-iiiicss has heeii goiii^ tliniii^h Ilia! pari ul' Ilic woild and ca|iliiriii^' the seals indisciiiiii- iial(;ly, who hataliites were enlnrccd. that they were induceil to retrain and dill r'el'rain, and it is most likely that their undirstandin^ was eorreel. In .Newroundlaiid then' is |)ioleclion extended lo a ditl'eront variety ot'tlie seals, hut still seals. They are hair seals. The .\et of IH7are thri;e Acts that are (luoteil in the 1st vo. of the I niled Stales .V|)|i(Midi\ at pa^es il'J and following:, and were enacted and very |)ro|)(;rlv enacted for the |iroleetion of those animals hi'in}^ found necessai'y lo Ihoir |irotcelion if llioy wei'e to he saved. The leriiis of llie .\ct show what the distance is. II provides that no steamer shall leave port foi' liie seal lishery hel'ore G o'clock in the fore- inion on the lOlli day of .March in any year, and no sailini; vessel shall leave port for the seal lishery hel'ore the hour of ('• o'clock in the forenoon on the Isl day ot.Mai'ch in any yeai'.and so forth. In terms they provide •>nn-i Hint tin slisiiiUM' sliall innke ii sccoixl trip in iiiiy oiio \oai', rrnin iiny poi'l of lliis ciiloiiy or its ili>|ioii(lcii<'(>s; iiiiil iii^aiti, no ut'ficial of llor MajcslN's tiisloins in tliis colony sliall clear any sicaincr Tor a sealinf; voyaf^c hefore the 9tli day of March, or any sailinj; m-sscI for a scaling; voyaf;(^ licl'orc Ihe liist day ol" {"'(diriiary. All that shows, NNitlioiil Ihc aid of any map, that it is soinclhin;; of a vo\iif;(> I'or which a vessel re(|nires a clearance, and the lime of sailin<; lor which is mal(M'i;d: and only one voyap; is |iermitte(l during llie vear. .Ml Ihal shows this is something oiilsid(>lliethree mile limit, and Ihenalnre of the animal, as we have heard from lh(> evidence in Ihis case, is such thai ii mnsi he son^'ht principally in the open sea, beyond Ihal lime, some hnndreds of" miles — I am lidd hy (ienoral l''osler' it was not in m\ mind how I'ai' — hiil I'ar enonj;h lo answer Ihe pm'|Kise of Ihis discnssion, hecanse (piite onlsid(>. of an\ ter- ritorial jui'isdi'.'lion. There is a deposition on Ihis suhjecl as well. Senator Morgan. -- Is there any evidence lo show those hair seals have anv sunnner home on land anywhere, al any parlicniar iilace? Mr Phelps. — I do not Ihink lh<>re is. I lliiiik Ihal Ihey do not hi'ccd or propajiale on land as Ihe fu? -seals do. 'I'liey propa};ale on Ihfi ice, I am inlormcd. I am speaivin^ rather al random on Ihis pniid, hut il'wroiif; I am open to corrcM-lion. hecanse I have not rel'eri'ed. I do not mideistand Ihal Ihey come to the land lor any such piirpost! or such pe- riod of lime as the fur-seal do. Senator Morgan. — The reason ol n y (piestion was Ihal I supposed Ihal was Ihe occasion for the enactmiMil id'laws li\ ;;overhnu'nts interest- ed in Ihe haii'-seal lishery on hunting Ihal wcr'c several hundred miles distant. .No particular couulrv had jm isdiclion over the laud upon whi(*li Ihal species of seal was proiiaj;aled. Mr Phelps. — I supiiosi' thai is Irue. I suppose Ihal there is no aiudogous case, in respect |o Iheir allaclnuenl lo the soil, lo that of Ihe fiii'-seal lo he foiuid in thi! hair-seal; hul. nevei'lheless, under cireii- mstaiues much weaker on helialf of prolection than Ihal of liie fur-seal, Ihis protection is evieuded, and as | insist jl is propcrU extended. The President. — I believe Ihey are less mi^'ralorv in Iheir haliils. Mr Phelps. — Thev are less mipialorv. so Huil in one respect they remain nearer, but in the other particulars I think Ihey do mil ^o on Ihi; shore. There is evidence lo which I shall have lo refer so as lo answer Ihal. Senator Morgan. As I understand, several Knrop<'au (ioM'rnmenIs ha\e hy wroiiiuilitn(l 1 slioiild sav, in vNliii'li no oilier inilioii. as far as I am a\v,)ri>, |)arlic'i|ialos, and in rcsiiccl ol'whicli Ihci'i' is no ('r(ii\('nli()ii. Senator Morgan. II ih'iiIitIs liif liair-soal williin ,'crlaiu lic^^recs ol liililndi' and longitude in ili<> ii|ii>n sea. Sir Charles Russell. — " i^ NCwroiMKllnnd. Senator Morgan. — \(s. Sir Charles Russell. — II lias rej^ulaliuns alioul prevenlinj;: soaliiif; from a |iaiiicnlar da\ in llif year. Senator Morgan. — To a (•crlain plaro in Ilii- oi'can- Sii Oharles Russell. — Then' is no qiicslioii almni any placo in the (ii'oan. Senator Morgan. — II scums lo mo il mnsi !)c. Mr Phelps. — I will rdVr airain In !ho .\cl, which will he found on pat;c ii:^ and 'i li .d'lh<' (nilcd Slalcs Caso. Sir Charles Russell. — This is lhc .Ian Maym Convention. Mr Phelps. — II is llio oilier side iil'llie AUanlic, hnl, in Ihis one llio li'f;islalion is conlined lo .Newriiuiidliuid ; and I will read a few of these sections and the:! yon will see how far il ^oes. It is the Act nf \HH{\, section (■). livciyniir wild IiMiiU iir Isills wliiili'-, si'.-ls, uv [)()ri)i)isi'ri, hy tiieans u!' roi'licls, c\|iliisiv(' iii>tiiimciils, (IV >lii'll-i. sliiill he li:ililc lo a |iciKil(y nnl cN.iMMliiiL,' Miri'i- liilliilicit iliiliai's, .-111(1, iiuloraiill 111' |iayiiiciil, lo iia[ii i^uiiiiiiiil hu' .'i Icilii icil cxcce- ilin" six niiiiitlis. Senator Morgan. — Thai means evorywiiere. Mr Phelps. — ^e<. il is nollimiled. Sir Charles Russell. — Where did yon read that from .' Mr Phelps. — I'auv HI. Sir Richard Webstei. — Tiial is with reference to Canada, and has nidhin^ Id do with .Newluundlandal all. Mr Phelps. — Vos, that is Canada, I see, which I will come lo after- wards. Then tli(> Act of |K',»2, on pa-e iil, i will refer to. I liad l;e,unn lo read the Act (if Canada which is wioii^. No stcaiiii'i sliiilt leave any [loil ol .Newrimndlaud oi' ii> ileiioMli'icies I'm llic indsi'i'iilion ol the Sisd t'isliery lierore llie hour oT -i\ o'chu k la lhc lore noon o| Ihe IwcHtli ilay of March in any year under a |ienally of live Ihoiisaud dollars, l.i he lecoveied I'naii llie master, owners, or oilier person on whose accoiml such sh'a- nier shall have hecn seiil to such llshery : provided. .\nd so forth. Then No seals shall he Killed hy any ciew id' any sleainer, or hy any nieriiher Ihereol hel'ori' the rouilecnlh day of March or alter Ihe twenliclli day ol .April in any year, nor shall seals so killed he hrouf:lil into any poll of Ihis eolopiy or il- dependen- cies, as aloicsaiil, in any year under penally olloiir tliousalid iloll.iis. and so forth. 353 — anni — Senator Morgan. — Now if you will allow me lo ask, all llial. rclalcs, as I iintiorslaiul il to pelagic liiiiiling of hair seals. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Senator Morgan. — The (|ii('slion I was asKiii;; was, wlicllier lliere was ii|ioii llie coast of .NcwroiindlaiKl, or any olliei' place where these seals assemble, a rookery or place of resort or liahital. Mr Phelps. — I iiiiilerstaiid not. 1 tiiulerslaiul thai they breed in the open sea or upon the ice in the open sea, liial they do not conic ashore, thai in thai res|)ect lhe\ are entirely diilerent from the fiir-.seal. Senator Morgan. — That is what I \>antod to know . Mr rhelps. — Von will remendier, allhon^h in the evidence in this case as to the Itehi'iuf; Sea, it is siiown the hair seals frequent more or less and are seen in the walei', there is no proof they come up at the I'ribilof islands or the Commander Islamls or anywhere else. Senator Morgan. — So that Ihe Statute yon have just read relates (>nlirely to pela^'ic hnnting. Mr Phelps. — Kntirely. Sir Charles Russell. ^ There is a statement by Professor .\llen on thesuhjeci wliich would seem lo be rather contrary to my leariu'd friend's V iew . Mr Phelps. — I may not be cpiite accurate in what 1 say about the natural place of these animals. I cuiil'e>s jl lias not atlructcd my atten- tion. Sir Charles Russell. — There is a I'd'erence in it to Profcssoi- .\llen, and there is this reference from j'ntfessiir flower, page IH.'J of the Hritisli Commissioners Keport. lie says : tii liiiliils all (111' Oiiiriidir, wlicllii'i' hair-siMls nr riM->i'als, apjicai' tn l)e niurll alike. A^. inij;lil be iiiiciicil I'lcini llicir pdwi'i' nl walking mi all rmiis, Ihcy lU'O licltci' I ii|ial)li' III' liiciiiiiiiliiin nil -liiiM', ami imiiui,' iiilainl hi irrcah'i' ili-^laiiri's lliaii \\u< trill' -I'als a! Ilii! Iireciliiif; soasuii, llnniirli I'Viii linn llicy arc ahviiv-* ulilliit'd lo i-L'liu'ii to (111- waliT to seek lliclr looil, ami Ilie ii'~l ol tlie year i- niaiiilv s|iciil in till' open sea far away liom land. Mr Phelps. - 1 will be ivadv in the nmrniii;; to answer the (|uestioii deliniteh, but I am mil al this moment. II is not in m\ mind ami wind I have said is npun my j;eneral understandiiij; of the subjecl ami may be somewhat inaccurate. .My general underslanding is thai they are m)t much on shore, and certaiidy do not breed on shore, but that they imiy come on shore at certain times may be true, as my learned friend says, ami is true if I'i'ol'i ssor Allen savs so, as he is an anlhoritv on the subject , iint in all Ibis mass of evidence I recall no slalement b\ aiiv witness about any biiir seal bein^ ashore in itebiing Sea — I'crtaiidv not on the Commander or I'ribilof Islands with the I'm' seals, and I do not think Ihci'i' is a slateiiient by anyboiK as lo having seen one ashore anvwbeie else, though, of course, thai would not be conclusive Ihal tliev did mil go ashore. .Now the propriety of those provisions is shown b\ the allidavits of ii '2no;i — coiipio of maslcrs ol' spitliii;;- vessels which will ho found nl page 59! ol" the 2n(l IJiiiled Slates Apiieiulix. One of them says he lias : Uui'ii Iwciily rniif yiMis pi()sc'ciitin|,' tlic^ si'iil (isiiery on (he oojisl ol' Newrouiid- hiiiil, Labrador, and (iiill' of SI. l-awiiMicc. iiiiif years of wliirh 1 havn roni- inaiidiHl a sloaiiuT. 1 am o|i|ios(;d lo sc.'ond hips (o llic sisd lislii iy,as I consider tlii'y arc calcniated to dcslroy llic species, as all I he seals killed on sucdi (rips arc old and mature seals, and at least 7,) percent ot' them arc loinalc seals. I am now speaking' of liarpseals; they are principally shot on the ice, bnl when tlie ice pai ks tli(\v are killed with, bats. When shot on o|)en or lloatin^ ice alarfje nnmher id' tlicm escape into the water and die from hieeding. I shonid say (hat for eveiy seal shot and captureil three I'scape wounded lo die . " ■ ic water. Thai is when they ace siiol on Iho ice wiiei'o, of course, it is easier lo hit lliein Ihaii when shootin;; at llu- head (d' animal that is swimming in the water. I have seen ten seals on one pan shot and wounded and all escaped. To kill and capture tin' seal, the hullel nnisl lodj^c in (lie lie.id ; if il striki's any pari oldie body, (he seal w ill inana^i! (o iiel (o Ihe ediie lA' Ihi' pan and csi'ape in(o the water. I know IrouL my own kno\vlei|i,'i' Ihat the number (d' seals broiiubt in on secoinl trips is yearly derreasinu:, and Ihat the (Ishery is beinj^' dopleleil by Iho lU'Oseculion of Ibis trip. Apart from the nunibi'r of old mature and female seals (les(roye(I, the hunl- in,:; necessary for their eapluro prevent Ihi! male and female cuminj; together. and sit fiirlii. Then liiciiard Pike leslilies In the same clFcel. 1 cannot speak (d the pereeid.iiii' of seals taken on a si'ciuid trip, uuv of the sex. .Nearly all lie.' se;ils taki'ii are liedbiiuers and (dd harps. The second trip ;;ciierally covers (be moiilli of April. Nearly all seals taken on Ihe secoinl Irip are shot on open and lloaliiij.' iei'. Very few are shot in Ihe water for if hit, tbi'ic is very litlle ebaiice of their caplnre as they sink iinmedialidy. Tln'y are seldom or never tired at in the water for unless they are ver\ ilusi' (here is veiy liKle ehanee iddicirbeiii).' recovered. I'"ully one (bird ol the tl> . likidy lo lead to Ihe e\teriiiina(ion of the spi'- I'ies b\ the killing of o. I and nialnre ^caN and (lie desdnction can-edby (be use of (ire arm-. and sii fortli. I refer [n lluil In slmw wlial Ihe |iiiiiil is nf Ihis sbihili' enactment against going mil In Ihe lislierv hid'oi'e a ceiiain |ieriiiil nf Hie \earanil agiiinsi s ind Irijis. Tliev are sini|ily measures iiecessarv fur Ihe |ireservalion nf Ihe seal. Sir Charles Russell. — \\ hile m\ iv niied friend is Imdving fnr a refe- rence, I miglil roll r Senalm' .Mni'gan In Ihis which Mr Tupper is gnnd ennngli In call m\ alleiilinii In. hi Ihe 'Jnd vol. In the .\ppeiidi\ In Ihe I'liiled Slalcs ('.a~e lliere is a depnsilimi pnl in li\ Iheiii nf niie .lames Wilsnn a! page Jl2H. I am at present a::enl lor I be Norllieni I'.iekliig Companv a( I'orl Keiiai, and have no praclii'il knowledge cd fnr-e.il liji'. There is a hair-seal rookery in the iKirlliorn imrl ul Couk's Itili'l. on Kal;:iii Islanil hIkhiI lalilmlc lid" ;iii' worlli. I have? iioviT kiiuwii liii'-s(>al, lo coini,' up inlii Cuok's Inlcl. Mr Phelps. — Wi'll. I will n-liini lothis siil>ji'(l lo-riiorniw. Sir Charles Russell. — 1 do nol Ihink llinl iiny s|io(i:il allciilioii wiis iliriM'lt'll III lliis |ii>inl. as Inriis I ciiii jiiil^i-. Mr Phelps. — I am mil iircjiat'cd liuli'al willi il hi (la\. As I said, I may !)<> wi'iin^ ill llic assiiiii|)liiin I wiis iiiidcr in i'(>s|M>rl In llial. Mr Carter. — l>(ics il slalt; llial a seal niokcry was round'' Sir Richard Welistcr. — Vcs. Mr Carter. — WIkisc aflidavil was llial? Sir Richard Webster. — Wilson al pane -Jl'H ol'oiir ,\|i|M'iidi\. The President. — I lliiiik we have no liiisinos willi hair seals and von need nol ti'(iiilil(> yoiirsi'll' alxuil llial. Mr Phelps. -- Then llio (iict'iiland I'ishorics, lowiiich Seiiahir .Mor- f;aii rcrcncd, will hi' roiiiiil slali'd in llic Ciiili'd Slalcs Case al |iai;e liJT. I have a rt'lorcncc lo llii' Slalc l'a|i('i's on Ihal siiliji'd, hiil llie hook acci- di'iilally has hoi'ii K'i'l onl, and I may have In recui' lo that a};ain lo-mor- idw. I will iinly |ioinl oiil now wlial llie eharai'ter oi'lhis Le}.'islalioii is. Tliis i'i'i;inii ill ll jii'ii MM i> i-inlirari'il ill ||i.' :uim1\Iii^ lielweiii llir [laialli'l- (illiT" ami T.'i'llnilli lalilii'h' and llie iiii'i iijiiiiis nl .'>' casl ami IV'wi^l loiiijilnilc' liulii (liiM'iiw jell. TIlc-.!' li^lii'i ii'< Well' inaili' Ilic -iilijerl or l('^'i srvi'- lal coiinliic^ ili;rini: IIicnimis IS",'), ISTti. JSTT, ami IsTS. Tin' :iiil nl .\|iiil is I >talili»lii'i| a> llii' •'ailii'sl ilale each year oii wliiili llie simN roiild he lefi.illv eaplil- I'eil. and penalties are li\>'il lor a vi,dalioii n|'||i>' pioliiliilion. .Now, thai shows llie |ini|eeli()ii thai il has lieeii riuiiid necessary hy lliose (lovermiienls lo he exiended over u porlion of llie sea. >o very larj;e, Ihal no one (inveiiiiiii'iil loiild aiidei'lake lo a--iime Ihe |ii'iileel.ion he- eanse Ihe water washed eijiiallv Ihe slmres nl' nllieis. and lor (ireal Itri- lain lo have said. " We will proleel Ihe seals elear iieross Ihe north, say 11 1! to the ciiast (ir.Niii \n;i\ ", wiiuld he assertiiij; lo i I sell' a ri;;lilllial Norway al least mi^lil as well asseil. The >aiiie with Holland: the siinii;willi liiisvla ; Ihe s;iiiie N.itli l>el;;iiini; the same with tiermaiiy. The eunse- (|iienei' is Ihal llio«e .Niitioiis. wi>el\ enip|i':li. enleied iiilo an Aiii'eemeiil hy wliieli they shuuld all jiass Slaliiies; liiil when lliev Iia\(> all |iiissed Slaliites. juiw rar jiaxi! liiey reached an Anieriean. for inshince.' Sir Charles Russell. — I du nut think (iirinaiix has any slmre washed I)} those waters. Mr Phelps. — At any rale, smiie of he ennnlries have, and how far do all tliesi! Slalnti's piil lii;;e||ier reaeii an American'.' .\nierica has ado|ileii no smh Slalnle: I'Vanee has adojiled no such Statiile as far as I know. Sn|i|iose an Aiiieriiaii or a IVem !i \es«el sails up into these Seas and says •• We will ea|iliire these seuU, in a close lime even, allhon^h il annnints to an (■xlerminatiun ; we care nothing I'or voiir Stalnles. Hall a — -nm — ut su|)|K)se, I repeat, au Auiericau vessel is tilled oul and starts loi" these .Ian Mayen Fisheries in delianco of all Mils oul ou llie hi^h seas, is there any powei', or must all these nations >laud hack, it souiehoily IVoru .Nantucket in Massachussels thinks proper to lit out a piiachirif; expedition to ff> and destroy those seals in the hree- diiif; tiuie, — is there any redress? Would that he pcrniiltcd? What vNoulil he the us;ij;e and custoui of nations iu regard to this? Senator Morgan. — if you will allow me lo answer (hat, I would say " at liih'iilinu ". Mr Phelps. — II is, if 1 may he pi'rmitled lo say so, never wise lo pre- dicalc misloiluuc, aud I should lake a more oplimislic vii'w of life. Senator Morgan. — I may say the point I was Irving lo sellle in my own mind aus. I did not know how it was : whc'ther (dtlier of these nations llial eulered inlu (his (ionvculiiui had au\ piece nf laud or piece of tei'ri- lor\ wilhiii llii' area (d' lalilude and huiuilndc which had heen covered hy the l.oiiveulion upon which Ihcs,' seals were iu the hahil of resorting and have maile a home, or was il simph llieopeu sea.' Mr Phelps. — Thereis uo such place lo ui\ knowl(>d^e. His the open sea lli.'d Ihev cover. \\ here these seals have their I'ookerics, llial is lo say if lliey have rcxdneries, I may say I do iiol know, aud I am iiol aware of au\ cvideiice in llie case Ihal discloses il. Senator Morgan. — II is Ihe lloaliiii; ice, I nnder>laud. Sir Charles Russell. — Ves; iu the .Norlli Allanlic, if mil e\clusi\ely. at all eveiils chiellv. — apparciilh l a liou-coiiciirriiif; nation than il would he if iuiIn one lalioii ic^islaled. \\ hat I am upon is, what is Ihe usaj;c and cii>loiii ofmiiukiiid? W e will <'oii>idcr iu aiiollier c(uiui'clioii herc-aflcr Ihe precise lejial operalioii of such Slalnles as thai. What is Ihe ciishun and iisa^e of I'laiikind? .\iid if you have, iu Ihe pursuance of Ihe duly you have underliikcii of (h;cidiui; lliese (|uesli(uis. lo .i^ccrlain whi'lher the Ireeilum of the sea e\lciid> |o Ihis ami wlial is Ihe ueiieral sense aud sen! i men t ami opinion of mankind. ilii> is amoii|; Ihe lu-laiiccs Il .vlii('li no nation is niakin^' a linsl)aiidiy of on its own tnri'ilorv al all. II shows lli(> sense of mankind on lliat snlijecl. Now iwas abonllo remark as to atjnestion \mi l>\ melielon- the recess, as lo what >vonld lake |dari' iti these waters outside ol' the liireemile limit eoverpd and |>rotee(ed. or where the (iovornmeni had covered ami |iro- toeled, as fai' as lhe\ eould, the animal life - the tish or oysters, whate- ver il may he — what woidd lake place it' a \essel ol' some other nations, nolwillislandinj; that, sails into this area and says I am on the hij^h sea — I will lake these lish and care nolhinf; t'oi' \om" Statute oi llefjidations, and care nolhiufjahoul what the c(Uisei|uence is. \\ hat would lake place? " War" says the learned I'residenI, and in answeriuf; thai (piestion in that way he loiielied the very point of this whole sidiject. What will take place? Thi> forci; of Ihal nation will repel that aj:);ression — that nation will put a stop to thai inl'rin^cmenl ol' its rights and ol' those ins- tructions. Then it' the nation to which this invading ship helon^s choos(>s (o lake the matter up, why il may or may not residt in war. There ai'c such things as just causes i,!' war recoj;ni/.e(i in international law. II' any nation should rise up and say il' a pre(lntory schoon.r of one of om' suh- jecls goes up on to youi- coast in deliance of your Laws and itcfjulations lo exterminalo there a fishery indusirv and you repel il liy force we will go to war then it woidd stand in 'In' judgment of maidvind how far il could maintain that pr'oposition. Il woidd he force in the place of war. I would use the wurd " force ". Well now when the I'liiled Slates putting aside tlii' right in my judg- ment that il ought ht have evercisod, ai"! refers it lo lliis Tiiliimal, what is Ihe (piestion thai isicferred? Is il not what would the I nited Stales have heen jnslilieil in doing for itself. The (pieslion would have heen for tlic world, were you rigid? The Award u\' this Trihiinal should give to the I'niled Slates all they would have if the\ exercised this right for themselves. That peilia|p> conies under a lillle later hraiich of m\ Argument which iiiiu'c striclh deals with the suhject of self-defence than this does on the ((iiijslion of a |»ropeity interest wilh which I am now dealing. The President. — II is a very interesling and ingenious exposition of your views, hiil that is not (piih; an answer to another qiieslion on which I should likti lo hear yon. and which yoii put :i few minutes ago : what would happen in the case of the. Ian .Ma\en (ionveiilion if an .\nie- ricaii hoalwas tilted out and was lo inlerfere? Voii put the ipiestion, hut did nol give lis an answer. I would like to know your view, whether the .\ni(>rican government, not lieing a parlv to this Convention, woiiiil stand exaclly h\ the same ohligalions and have the same rights as those idlier (ioveriinienls which have heen parlies lo Ihe Convenlioii. Yon unders- tand my meaning? — 20(1!) — n III irh U" : iiii'- liiil llir iiml Imt liTS- Mr Phelps. — (Vrliiiiily, Sir. and wliilo llio nnswor will coino in ap- |iro|trial('l\ a lillhs laliT I am very }{lail In have llic ([iicstioii piil now, j can answcf il as well now as al an\ lime. TIh'I'c llif casr arises where lliese CiovcrnintMits are enlilleil lo proteel llieniselves a^'ainsl an a^};ressi(in wliieli is tleslnielive In llieir valnalilu indiisli'v. anil wliii-ii is williiuil aii\ wari'ani exeepl (he prnfil llial can ho made mil of il — exeepl Hie prntil In he made onl of il hs llii! invading inilividiial. I'lial is a ^uhjeel I shall deal willi h\ nml hy. LordHannen. — And wonld have uipial I'Dree il' only Iwn made sncli a I .iiiseiiliiiii. Mr Fhelps. — 11' mdy Iwn nr only onn and I should ipialil'y thai, priivided alwiivs llial Hie one which makes il lias a speoilic i'i<-|il ^rnwini; mil i>r ils lerrilnrial iiileresi, In make il. I do mil mi;an In say llial niie naliiui or liall'a do/en can eonlrol Hie npeii sea wilhniil any oilier cause than ils inleresi in Iho open sea which evrrv liiidv else has alike. I do nol mean lo say llial. I mean In say when Hie iiilcresI is allached In Hie (erritory and is Ihen in the lerridirv — Hie sniine III' a vahialile |iusl)andi-\. an inleresi hy which a valuahle animal is preserved c-imin^ williin Hie purview nl' Hie case Ihul I have lieeii disciissinj;, lliere Hie (iovernmenl has a perl'ecl rifjht lo repel hy I'nrce, as il would, as il nu};lit and as il always has, any invasion ol'it. Well llieii applviu^ llial lo Ihis larj^er area whore several nations have lo comhino In prnlecl Ihis iiileri;sl allhon^h perlia|is il does not attach it- sell' tnthe slinre of eithi'r nl' lliem particularly there. I shniild say that the natinns imiti'd would have Hie same ri};lil of proliM'lioii they wmild slami- \\\'^ aliiiie if the hushandry was peculiar and the interest was parlicniar In ils own ciiimlrv, liiil il is mil iiecessars I'nr lis in this case to f:ii so far. The (|nesti(iii iiivoUed the discussion of ri^thts furlhi-r nul to sea and il is separated from the parlicniar terrilory of Ihe nations so far. I am not |irepareil nl Ihis momciit really In say as n mailer of fact Imw far Ihe seal lisherv is prnlected liv Ihis le<;islalion undei' the cnnventinii nf various cnmilrics. Here is nu inleresi like Iho whale ti>lierv . which is |iiirsned e\cliisi\el\ in Ihe npeii sea, which attaches itself In no leri'i- lnr\, and il is the liasis nf no iiidiislry, of no prnleclinn. It is a rif^hl that all mankiiiil share in cnminnii. .Nnw llieii. when ynu cniiie to inlc.fero with that in the open sea. hy Ihe concurrence of sevei'al natiiMis il may well I'nllow that only the siihjecls nf nations so concnrriii^ are hound hy that. Wliv? liecanse no one of them has a -ireater rifilit of protection than anyhodv eUe has ; lint the mo- ment, instead nf liein^ a pursuil thai is in the the open sea, it attaches itself In the lerrilnrv and hecomes appurtenant lo it, and is there made Ihe fouiidaliiiii nf a hnshanilrv. and there protected, and is lliere preserved from exieriiiinalioii, and there slalntes nf thai snrl are a|iplied, Ihen it comes within the doctrine of sell'-del'enee. that I >liall allude In hy andhy, of the nation itself whelher it is made the subject of concurrenl regiila- in 10 linns iiiiil sliiliili's (il'viirioiis nalioiis, or wliclhcf llic\ slimd iilmii'. As if, I'oi' insliiiici', lliissiii hail jniiiril willi lln- I'nili'd Slatfs, as jl wdiild have joiiii'd ii'liicai Itrilaiii liad. wlioii llir scIIIi-iiiimiI (il'this (|ii('stiiiii was lirsl iiiadi- in Kiif;laiid in IHH7, wliicli we liasc I'd'crrcd (o licturc - mi|i- |)()si> lliissia an Hiiili'd Slalos, lln- llirci' cuiiiilrii-s |)riiii'i|)ally inloroslcd, owiiin^ all lli<> liM'rilDry llial a|i|)i'ii\inial running oiil ol' |licso principles into the serious results which have hecu discussed, and which are not within our purview or even within Ihc pu.'view of our contomplalion. I was iookinii al the (pu'stiiui as lo Ihc value of these arrangements hctween tlo'se (ircal l''.uropean i'owci's as a prciisdenl on Ihc snhjcct of ri'gidations that might he adopled hv this 'IVihiinal. aU'ecling fhi> rights ol'lireal Itritain am! Ilie I iiitcd Slates on the Pacilic Ocean. Mr Phelps. II iinilo'ihlcdh has an im|)oi'tant hearing on the hranch of Ihc case wliicli the Trihi.irtai Ims discovered het'nre this time, is not. in my jiulgnu'id, Ihcchieror principal cpu'slion in this case, ami whiili I have not hccn ahic lo persuade mvsell'will he the oni' that will he ultimately adopted, piM'haps I am (piitc wrong: hut upon that ipn-stion dl' regulations there is no douhl al all that it has an important hearing, nn the other (picslioii of Ihc idiaraclcr the conduit which is sought lo he jnslilied here, whcthei' il comes within llio legitimate freedoni and the sen dc m,!^ it has an importani hearing as shewing what the sense of mankind is upon thai suhji'ct. II is principally in lliosc two connection^ thai we have cited il, not hccause il is in other respects at all analogous |u the case; Ih il we have in hand. .Now. the I riiguay proleclion provisions will he found on page li'.lnf the Itook I have hccn reading from, tlie Isl I'niteil States Nppcmlix. and includes the liOhos Islands, when there are siill. as we learn from the Icstimony of the furriers, seal> enough to alloril a small ;ninual prolil, not large commerciallv, hid still appreciahle. This eoiues tVnni the cus- todian of the Archives al .Monlcvidco : I tia\i' ti> inliinii mhi in ( niii|ili;uii'i' wllli llir luii'iiuiiiij ili'iiei', thai Itie I;iKIml; III si'iits nil Hie i^liiiiils I'lilli A Lnliiis. I'nlonlii, (ia-liitns liniiiitrs. aiiitCiii'iiiijIla. (Hi llie Cnast'i ol till' Ilin itc la I'lala. ami in Ilial pari nl' Ilic lli'iaii aitjaienl In iIh' il('|iai'l- iiiiiil III' Maliionailo anil Itnrtia i> ilniie liv I'liniraiiois wlm nlilaiii llieir niiilr.u'l I'or pi'iidils 111 ten \cars cacti paviiij; .■iiiiiiialix iiilo ''le pulilic lir.isiirv seven Itnins.'iint iliiliars in v'nlil, anil alsn Hie ilepartnienlal itiilv <>r Iwi'iily eeiiN mi eaeli seat-sUiii anit roiii' cents nil each .iirolia iifnil. .\ vci'v similar iirrangeineni lo that which llieliovcrnmeiit of tin I'ni- led Stales ask. — -m I — This duly \\;iicsl,ililisli(iil anil |p|iivi-;iMii riiiidi' lor Ihi' nlijccl In wliicli il was Id lir a|i|ilic(li li.v llii' Act of July '.>,';r(l |s;.7, and thai ol' Jiinr i.sili IS.'is, iCaraira, vci- linnc I. iiaKi'sliiiauil ISK, l)i(;rsl ol' Laws). Tho Slalu piaranliTS lo Ihu ciinlracUns Ihal llii'V shall caiiy on Ihi'ir indnsliy wilhout nioicslalion. II docs not immiiiII v(-scN cd' any Kinil lo an( hor idl' any of Iho said islands, and (iocs iiol allow any wniKs III I Hslinili'd Ihal ini^jhl liiuhtcn lln' Sfals away. Tlii' ralch hr^'ins .hinc Isl and rnds Oclid)(!i' l.'dli Drcivo ol' May ITIh l«7ii, iiaj-'c I Isil ol' Laws now in I'oiri', hy (loycnau This is all that Ihis niid{'rsi;.'nc'(l has to coininnniiali'. (iud ^nai'd yon many years. II is imdi-r lliiil provision tlial llic t'ow seals tlial arc M'\ mi llin Loltos Islands, and soino of (lit; wilncssus Icll you what has beconu! ol' llio rare tlial was llicre in f;r(iat nunilxM-s Ibrnicrly, aro preserved. Anyone thai suppiisi.'s llial an individual can lil on! a ship, il' he wanis lo, lo go down there and destroy those seals out of Ihe Ihi'ee mile line il' he has tli(! o|>piir- tuiiity lo the extent of extermination, would prohaldy lind nut his mis- lake. .Nidiiiily has attempted it. F-olms Island used Id he free pluiuler Ictr seals till tho seal was almost cxlermiiialed. and sinee then the cxter- ininatii.u has almost slopped.' Why is thai '.' The sealers helouj; to (diier nations, not lo Iruj^'nav. The sealers eome from Ameriea lar};ely. What has piil a slop to it? Whv, Hie kiiowledfif! that il is forhiddeii and would not i)e tideraled ; and it would not he safe t'orauyhody to take thoiii. The President. — There is nolhiuf.' lien^ aiiaiiisl lVl:i,i;ie Sealing. Mr Phelps. — I am aware ol' il. I do not know how far the sealinjj was pehifiie on the Lohos Islands; hut il is sneh proleelion as the ease iXMpiires : in the auehorinf; of vessels oil' there the limit is not preserved, and il is ver\ apparent under theeHeetor that Staliite which this Chief Clerk riiriiishes he does not send the full Acl - no ac| would he permitted lo he (lone li\ foreigners which would h iid lo exterminale those seals, wha- tever il was, — il miiiht he pelajiic scalini:. and il would he no answer lo sa\ if a vessel were lo <;o and anchor outside Ihe three mile line aiul take iiiiv asiircs Ihaf would li'iid lo deslrov the seal, — il would he no ans- wer to the (ioverumenl lo sa\ they wen; oulsiile Ihe line; nor is there u ^eojiraphical limit to Ihe Act in (|ueslion. The case of Chile and the Arp-uline Itepuhlic Slalnles will he found oil pa^e iJli'.l of (uir Case : Tilr l.oliuv hjiiiiil looki'licshaverniiivcr till yeais liL'i'li prnlected hy lllc (iovcin- nicnl nf I'l n.L:uay. And the relui'ii comes, as Ihe I'lirriers testify, into the London market. The (loNernnii'iils or Chili' and Ihe Ar.iirnlini' llc|Mihlic- have also recoiilly ^:iven |ii'nlc(liiin lo llii' I'nr-si'als rcsoilinj: to llicir coasts in Ihe lio|io (d icsloiinL' llicif almost exleiininali'd ronkerii's. In Ihe stMdiid Iniled Stales \p|iendix i-. a deposition on Ihat point from a sealer I helieve at page ."i'.t?. Sir Charles Russell. —The Chilian law is expressly stated to he lerri- loriul. ■ii>4 Mr Phelps. — This is llic (l(<|iiisilii)ii ol' ricor^o Cdwci'. IIo is a ri-si- itciil III' Kiisl Sliaildiiiii Coiiiiccliciil. anil lias Iicimi rii^'af^iil in soalin^' in llio siiiitliriMi li(>niis|iiiiT(> lor ;i niinilii.T of \(>ars and has visilcil all llicsi; |ilai'i>s. and s|iiMlts ni' visiting Ihrsi' islanils. lie says : .\li(iii( IS.'iil this ishinil was visilcil liy an .\iiii'i'i( an wlm |HMrlii'allv rlrniinl oirihi' si'ais. 'rill' ra[ilaiii I slii|i|n'(| willi .liisc|ili |''iill('r visili'il llio isliuiil in i'^'*!* ami liiiilv ,'l,(i(lO seals |irarli(iill\ all linn' wi'i'i'; ami lliis was lliiM'U iiii'ira-i' tor Ihi'MdyiMi's Iroiii IS.MI. Wliili'l wa-; at Capi! Tdwii Naw a^'aii^' slaii mil fur mmIiiij; on llial iiiusi: lln' Kmlit'i'v I imhIit^I 1 In In- alimil J.'i niili's I'rniii ('„i|i(^ Town. 'rii(\\ an' in llii'|iiissi'ssiiiii iir I'diilrnj i.l'adimij- my, as I «a-i llicii inrciniicd.wliiih has llic c'xcliisivi! ii|.'lil hi lal»i' scahlhi'ir. \Vi' iliil ii.l daic In (,'" '" Hinsi- r.ki'i'iii's brraiist! scaling; was jiinliiliiti'il ami wi' wniijil iml haM; Im'cii allnwi'il In laJM' Ihriu in Iho waters ailjacriil llicrelo. Ai>'i'iiliiiii alsi> >'|aiiiii'siiiii nl Slali'ii LamI at (laid' Town ami siiiri' aliniil ISS-J nr t.ss;l we havi- iml liri'ii ailnwcd In tiiUi' si'als al llial |iniiil nr ill Ihi! waters near lliere. alllic)UL.'li llie eili/.eiis (ilArfjenliiia llieiiiselves have taken seals tlicro everv vear as I niiili'istaml and hi'lieve. Thai is all on Ihal siihjio Ihov dillor — Iho ainioiil and Iho prosoni.' Mr Phelps, —ihov do not dillor, Inil I moan I willdoal nnIUi lliocir- L'nni>lanoo of Iho /vrr/;/ prolcelioii. I liopo to show Ihal Ihoy do not dif- fer from what has alwavs hoen oiiforccd h\ Iho Hiissian (iovornmonl. .Now ill rojilv to wjiiit is said in Iho prinlod .\rgnmonl of the I'nilcd Slalos in ropU lo what is railed tlioro " Iho tiriii and rosohilo aolioii of Iho lliis- sian (iovornmoni in soi/iiij; several vessels ", — Ciinadian vessels 1 he- lievo — perhaps oil"' of lliom wiis an .\meriean — yes, mie .\nieriian as well, whiili woreeiij;afiOil in sealiiifi, niv friend Sir Charles Hussell refers lo a oorrospoiKlonee helweon Seeretary Froliii^hiivson in IMH'J, and Se- erolary iiavard in IMH7. Well, thai wouhl not at lirsl si^dil. he parlieii- larly apposite to the sei/iires thai look place in IS'.>2 espeeially as those sei/.nros were prineipally of iiritish vessels, and this oorrespondeiioe ap- pears to lia\e 1)0011 wilh a former Seerelary of State oftlie liiilod Slalos, .No man is so fertile in (/// the resonroes of aiKoeaov 1 may say, hnl I was ahoiil to say with rofjard to lliiil speiial reeoiirso of advoouoy vvliioh Irun- sfers llie di.soussion of a rpioslion to a ililVerenl siihjoel, as my learned friend Sir llharlos lUissoll. lie answers what is said ahoiil IH'.»2 hy a reforonoe to a oonlroversy on an onliroK ditl'erenl siihioet several years liefore; and il is nol diflii ull ti mak IvO siii'li an ans wor qiiilo sneeessfnl liocause you gel rid of Iho c.vacl eondilions under whirli Iho (luesliou — 'i()l;i — arises in llu' riisc in liuiiil; iiini llicrcl'drf if llii' nisi' prcsciils anv dil'li- ciilh il ran si)nu;linn>s he snci i's>riill\ nicl hv iliscnssin^ llii> ai)-^lt'ai't in iciatidii Id anoliiLM' i'as(! llial stands upon a dillcrtMil iDiitin^. .Now wlial \Nas this ('oi'i'fS|i lakin;; dI' seal-. II s\a< in ii'l'iTcnri' Id ||ii> vNJiaic ami i-diI li>liin^ and llic Iradc in ai'm~ and lii|nDi's willi IIk; iiali\i-s nn llii' Itus- sian ('.nasi. Thai i'^ wiial i' w.i-^ ahiail. .Ndw I ri>s|iiM'irnil\ a>l\ : \N lial has llial Id dn will llic sci/nir id'Sraliiij; vessels in IM'.liJ.' The San Kraii- cisi'o film V hieh made the eumplaiiit ii|iDn sNliidi Seei'ilaix IVelin^hny- scn's re|ire.>eiilalion Id Ihe lliissiaii (ioveiiinieiil was pie-enli'd, stale e\|dii'ill^ that they have nDJliinj; Id iId vvilli the laKiii;; nr pnrehase dI' I'tirs in their iDinplaint of the ailiDii id' Ihi' llnssian (iDverMmont — lli< mko care Id rlear themselves I'mm Ihe einhai'iassmenl id' havin;; il snppDsed that liiev are inleiferin^ with the ii will plfM'M' |>:iriliiii IIS Im llijs si'cniinu' iiili'ii-ion, hiil lln' iiiallrr jii \\\ li wo imw si'ck Mini' ;iitl iiml kinil assj^lam e is <>r uiimI iiii|iiiil.iiii'i' In us. We imw ari' anil liaM' I ii rslcnsively niuii^ri'il in llir I'lnilje Cna-I ('.•mI li-ln'- lii's, and, in lai'l, arc aiiiniiK Mic mtv lew wlm IHIren years auu sl.uleil In a small w.iy, lii'lieviii}; vvilli enei'^'y ami laii ilcaliiiL' we rmilil vvink ii|i an eiilcriiiise Dial Wiinlil Ilea lii'iielil to llic^ niasl. Iliir iilia^ were ciii'iecl. We have 'lecn v early si'liililiL' vessels III Mil' ('nasi nl' Kaiiili'lialka Si'n nl HklinUk I'nr li^ii. We never have lieen innli'slcil hi llll--i.ili waleis riolii cilrliiii;; inil ll-li m pin cniinu' liail. vvliirli are '^iiiall ^ahimn in llie liveis, nr tllliiij,' hi'^li water Inr Ihe use nl sliiji, hill il apjiiars imw Ihere is a law wliiili has never heen enl'iirri'il a;:.iiiis| hu'eipliei's. Ihi' ^aine we haM' I'l'ielilly linlril. ami whl.li we have heen a|i|ili'-i'il nl', ami Ihe snhslaiii'e is Ihal Imeiiin vessels iniisl leniM' an niiler riniii Ihe llnvenini' ol' Sllii'i'ia. Iiesiile> iniisl pay a duly nl' ID (Inlhiis per Inn nn all lisli raiiizht in l(iis>iaii w ali'i's. This ili'i'iee. il' siislaineil, is niinniis In mie nl Ihe lie«l ami ri~itij; imlii^liies nl tlie I'nasI, anil a-, we III mir ve^-eU in >ail ahniil Ihe 1-1 .Ma\ . leaves lis hiil lillle ehaiii'e In ariaiii^e mallei's Ihis seasnii -ave with vniir kiiiil assi>lanee in llie mailer, (hir hiisiiiess is lishiiiir entirely. We iln nn Ir.ido with iialives, having; nnthiiif.' ' - (In vvilli the l.ikiii;.' or piii'ihasin;; nl' j'lii'-. Al Ihis time we are plaroil in a very had preilieameiit. 'rriislin^' (hat ymi can relieve iis Irnm this iiiiharra-siiii'iit, and re- eeive an early reply nii the siih.leel, we are, etc. i.V/(/iii'f/. I I.vmm; and llniiiii. /'. .S'. — Uiir vessels llsli li'iiiii III In .'i.'i miles I'mm slmre. I., ami II. That is Ihi! lonmlatiDii, The emn'spundenee with .Mr llDlI'man IVdiii SI IVIersliiiryh vvlni I lielieve was Charp' d'.MVaires al Ihaltimei, is hased — -Jtll t - upon lliis It'lltT. I iii'i'diiiil icimI lliniii;;li lliis (■(•iT('s|iomlcnn'. I( follows Imm'i' ill Mil- lti'iti>ili <'.:i-i'. TliiMt' lU'c si-vi'nil li'lli-i's iiml liti{ill\ tlii'i'<> is ii li'lliT (oil |iil^i> I'.l of lll(' :inl I'lll'l of Vollllllr II ol' Ihi' A|i|M'llllis lo llll- llrilisli Ciisi'.. IVoiii M. dc (iii'is lo Mr llolViiiiiii ilnlcd Miu K 20 . ISSJ, in wliicli lie siivs : rili-i llira^lll'll lliiil is tliL> iiii'iisiii'i' Iiml was i iiiii|ihiiii(Ml ol' li\ llio mcrfliaiiN dc slii|)|ii'i's lliiil I n'iid IVom jiisl now — lllis llli'a>ll|r li'li'I'-^ only In piiililliili'il jiidll'ili'irN ;|||,| lu Ihi' liiidc ill rdiltl'.'lli.'inil : llh' icslljcljdlis wlljrll il ollllllisllr- rvlcllcl •-lllrlly In lllr Icn llnliill Wali'l'^ nl' ItlK- sia Hilly. It was iiMiiilrcd liy llii' niiiiicinii'. alni^i'^ [irnMil in lain voai's and which I'l'll wllli all llliMi' wi'i^dil nil llii' |Mi|iiilalihni'i> and of niir i<.laiid>, wliiisi' only ini'aiis of >u|i|ini'l is li\ li^liiiiK ami Ininlinu'. Tlii'sc alin-^i's iiillii l>-d aisn a iiiai'ki'd iiijiiiy nn Ihc iiiliii'sls cd' lln' rniii|iaiiy. In wliii li llii' liii|ii'iial lin- vi'i'iiiiii'iil had (niii'rdi'd Ihi' iiiniin|Hdy nl lisliini; and liuiiliii;: /<'\|ini'lalinii' in i^lallcN iMJIrd Ihi' • i:niiiinni|niL' ' and IIh' ' SimIs '. I wiiiili'd il I'l'IVrciKi' lliiil is iiid hi'ic. I will pass il and laki> il up in llii' iiioi'iiiii,;. I lia\(< nol ^'nl Indd ol' all llial I waiili-d lo liiid Uk^I'U. .Now passiiij; llial lur llif prc^ciil willi llir piiviici;!' ol' rcli'i'iiiij; lo il ai:aiii hniioi'iow iiioinin^' when I ^d a iiiori' parliciilar I'l'l'i'ii'int^ Ihal I liasi' mil al Iliis nionii'iil , you will liiid llii> view ol' Ihc Unssiaii Iiomtii- iiiciil as lo pclajiii' scaling — iwc arc f{oin}; hack lo Ihc rase of IK'.l^i — ill Ihc I'liilcil Slalcs .\ppciidi\. N'oiiinic I, page P.t2 — in a Icllcr enclosed h\ .Mr l.olhi'op Ihc. Minister al SI. I'dcr-hiirgh lo M. liavanl, sccrolars of Slale. on (he Hjii Meconibcr [HH~ , which I read (o Ihc Trihnnal on llio lirsl da\ thai I was addn.-ssing sou; hiil Ihc Icllcr of .Mr dc (iiers llie ininislcr nf {"'orcign .Ml'airs in Ihc Asiatic Ih'partnicnl which was ciiclos- od liy .Mr f-olhiop in that letter, was ixd read. The Icllcr from .M. dc liicrs i-i in llii'>e terms : .Mr Miiii^hi'; Mr \\nit~, under dale n| .\iij;n>l -J-J SepU'iiiljir -i , was ;; I >niiiiL:li 111 eDiiiniiiiiicale In liii' Ihe \iew> id' the linvci lilin'iil nl' Ilie I'niled Stales of .\iii(M'ira ii|iiiii Ilir Milijerl nf the ilc'sirahlein'ss nl' an iindrislandin;:. .iinoni; the (in- veniiiient^ r ■eriied, Inr Iho ri'iriililiiiii id' llir taking' I'l i'/e(,NMi id the I'lir-seal liiiiivs in till' liidiiinu Se.i. in cinler tli.il an end iiii^hl lir put In ||in>o ininn^ide- nde pi'atiees nrc\liTiiiinatiiin which threatun In diy np, il llii'ir snnire, an iiiipnr- tanl iii'aiicli id' inlei'ii.ilinnal ininnierie. We rniieiueiilindy in Ihe xiew-^ .d' Ihe llnveninient nl' \\w Inilrd Slate-;. IJko it wr alsn have lieeii I'm' a Iniij; line rnnsideriii.;.' what iiumiis ennld lie lakrll In re- liii'dv a state 111' Ihintis wliuli i> pii'jndi'ia! mil nnly tn iiiiiiini'iii' and In I'l'voiiiie, III wliiell will Minii wmk di>.islinn-; n'^iilt^. mil nnly In liie well ludii^; inil rven tn llie e\i»li'nri' III' niir penple in the e\l leiue nnrtii ea.sl. Ihe e.itahlishiiii'nl id' ;i re.i'innahlc rule, and of a lawful system in Ihu uso A'i:t/ili)iliiii'iii of the resoinces, whi(di I'linii^h llii'ir only indnslry. is for tlio.se peo- ple uf vital importance. Ami more lo llie same cU'eil. .Now until I8".(2 the sealing industry on the Commander Islniids, mainlaincd li\ the (iovernmenl of lUissiu, was uol al lacked. Up lo thai lime there had heon no pelagic scaling, I infer, — i(i|.S — Hull was |iartiriilai'K iiiiscliii'voiiH to llii> lliissiniHiovRi'iiiiKMil ; ami llic |li'ili>'li (!iiniiiii»iiiiH'i's al |ia;ii> hi7 nl' llicit' lli-piii'l I'l'inai'k, ri'f'i'iriii;: lo llii' lliissiaii :^ral lii'i'il ill i|s iiii;:raliiiiis In Hie llnssiaii m'h! i>laiMls. II i- a inalli'i' nf ■>iiiiii^ ^lll'|ll'i^l' lliat no alliMii|it In mi.uIi' In lakn llii'iii in tlni c>|j('ii "rix, at is iliiiic i>n siirli iiliii'iiCi' si'a1i< In lhi> .'iihi' iiI' the himN rosiiiliiif; In llic Ihi'i'- lllll^' ^'IoIIIkIh nl llll' IM^Irl II |in|'linll nl' llclii'iiiK Si'a. Sir Richard Webster. — Tlial is hoi llic Itrilisli f!omiiiissionfii's Ho- porl. The President. — Is that llin rif^iil n-fciciico ? Mr Phelps. — II is |iiililislii>il in Ijioir Idler. II is a ropDrt — I was \M'i)ti;{ in savin;; il was ||ii> Itrilisli IliMniiiissinni'i's lli'|Miii. Sir Richard Webster. — Il is in answer In (;ii(|iiiries lliiil wens asked lor. Mr Phelps. — Il is a lte|iiii'l made hy llie Itrilisli Soi relury oI'Le^jalion ill .la|ian al llie i'e(|iiesl nl' llii! Hrilisli (loiiiniissioiiers ilalod TolJo, .Nuvemi.er I'.Mli iH'.tl. Lord Hannen. — NN here is il lo Ix- I'dund. Mr Phelps. — Al |pa;;e 1(17 nl' Hie lirilisii (aininiissionors lle|iorl, or of the \|i|i('iiili\ or .Vdilemiuni lo llie Itrilisli Coininissionors Itcporl, il' iiiN miniile llial I have heeii reading', i'rom maniis('ri|il, is eorrocl. Il is llie lte|poil. I re|ii'al, olthe Mrilisli Seerelarv oI'Lejtation in Japan in r(!|il\ lo llll' Itrilisli I'.onintissioners ami iMihlisJied liy Hie Commissioners. || is iiid llieir own laii};iia^e hul il answc.s snlJieieiiliy lo show Hie i'ael. Then when Hie mmhis rirviiili in \H\V1 was in force lo a j^realeror hss evieiil, a jiieal nmniier of vessels resoiii'd for Hie lirsl limi; lo Hie vici- nily of Hie C.oip.maiider Islands, and llieii look iijacc Hie seizures hy Itiissia of lliose vessels — sei/iires which lliey had never had occasion lo make hefore hecunso Iliey had never been allacked, and which were made llien, niid have heen Hie suhjecl of so much ohservalion — very |iro|terlv — hy my learned friends in Iheir Ar;iiimenl. .\nd as I have somelliiii^ lo sav ii|ioii llial poinl liial il would he (|iiile iiii|iossihle (o conchide al Ihis late hour, with Hie permission of Hie Trihnnal I will defer it until lomorruw morning', and lud enter upon a siihiect thai I should leave lonehed upon so lii'oadly that what I should have to say woiihl he lost. The President. — If yon please ; II is a very inleresling subject. We will hear Hie rest tomorrow. jThe Tribunal thereupon adjourned unlil Thursday the 2*Jlh of .liinc IH'.KJal li.ltOa. m.] FOIITY-S i:\K\TI I DAY. JINK :".>^", \H\K] Sir Charles Russell. — I nii^'lil menlion, iliuiy of the Trihiiiiiil dusiros il. \M' can ^'\\i' lliciii ri'lciTnccs more mimcrous than we llioii.ulil lo th) ht'l'iii'i' ill I'l'I't'i'i'iK-o to the snhjcct ol'lhi* h.iii-scal and lh(! lad nC Ihcii' hau- ling out. Neither party sccnis lo have allaelied any great iniporlanee In il ; and I inerely, in del'erenee lo vvliat Senator Morjtan said, *a\ Dial we ean fjive rel'erenees if (h'sired. The President. — ( hardly liiiriK il is inali>ri.d, and as set I do not think we reijiiire Iheni : hni if in lin- eonrse of mir dililxralioii.-' anmngsl oiu'selves with rel'erenee lo Ihe Treidy we shoidd lliink we waul sn|i|de- nientary slatenieiils, tiien weniif;hl refer I nymi and ask fur those refereiK'es. Senator Morgan. — I nienlioned Ihal iineslion in Ihis eonneelion. In dislin;;nishin, lieioren Ihe rights of dillerenl |iei)|ile (d' the world In eoiulnet |iida^'i' linnlin^, il nii^'hl lie neeessarv in the ltt>^uialioiis In maUo .-oine provi.-ion in resjieet to ihe I'aet thai the I'lU'-soals and hair- seals in Ihe water are nol dislinjjuishahie. Sir Charles Russell. — That is nol admilled lo lie tiie Tact, — Ihal |l"'\ are not dislin^nishahle. Senator Morgan. — They are dislinjiuishaltli- in liie water? Il'tiiat is so, il answers ni\ dil'lietilly. Mr Phelps. — .Now, in iiin-suaiKc uf Senalor Morf;an's eni|uir\ of yeslerdaj , I was alioni lo read a few words on Ihe >ul)ii'il of Ihe hair'-seais I'mni I 111" Isl \ohinie id' Ihe rniledSl.ile'> .\|p|ii'ndi\lo Ihe Case. |ia,i;c 'Ml . II is a pari id' h' .MIenV \riii ji' uii Ihe nalni.d his|or\ uf lliesi> iininials, whieh has heen l're(|neiilK idlnded Id. Till' ^^r>'nl lil!)i' nl' l'iniii|irils in iIim^iIiIi hiIh lliiii' i|iiile (iislincl niiiior ^:i'i>ii|is liiaicil raiiiilics, iiaiiielv . Ilir \vaiiM>i'< Liiiiiiv Oiln/i, mihi- , Ilic , imimI-simU raiiiily lltniiid.r . and llir (11111111011 n|- lailr-s mmU (l,iiiiil\ I'liuntl.i' , '|'|ii i i;inii|i^ ilill'i r Motalily riiiiii iMi'li (illirr in many |i>iinls nC >li uciuii'. Then passing omt In paf;e .'JS| of Ihi! >anie honk : — Till' si'aU |irii|ii'r, or tin' liair-scals — — This wi'iliM' (■ia>ses the hail'— eals as the >(>al pmper llavi' \lii ii.ii iai<, ail' >lioi Ini'rkiil. 1 alliiT iliirk-lioilii'd, anil lia\i> llii' liiiiil llinlis |ieniianrnll\ iliirrli'il li.irkw.ii'il ami iim'1i's~ lor li'iri'slrial loioiiiolion. 'I'lii y vary uirally in ^i^i!. and so I'orlli. till' seals llial is to say, this varii'ly ol -raU llio^i' llial iir lall-; " ^fal-; |iio|ii'i' '' , unlike llie wall'isiw aiid eai'ed-M'aN. ale oT .ilnin-l woildwide disliilmlioii, lii'lii^ I'ounil nil llie roail'i of in-aily all eoiinliii's. omi).! williin llii' lrii|iii'<; llii> a!|iian and oilier-' in \>ia. •2017 Tlion fiirllicr down : Seals as a nili". ari> not |nilyi.'aiiicius, '• (ri'l'ciriii;.', nl' finirsn, lo llii< I'linriil.r, IlicsL' li;tii"-r Nils) ".and rosorl to lliu land or ii'o (icids lo liririj,' forth thi-ir yonn;;, ac- cordiii^r to llio sprcios. Tlicy ari' also more or li'ss iiilnralory. 'I'Ikmi ill fcs|)(!cl lo llic lliii'|t-st'fil oil |mgo ."{82 of llic siimc Article) wiiicli is a (liireriMil species, cliisscd as llio /'/torn (/rocn/iitKlIni, Ity lliis wrilcr. Ilitli'iiiil ; North Allaiilic, I'rom the (liilf ofSt l.awrcnci' and llic North Sea norlli- ward lo tlip Arctic Sea; also Itchiinfr Sea. The harp-seal, known also as Ihe sadilh'-haek. while-eoal when youiifri, fireeii- land seal, etc., is hy tar the most iinporlant eomniercially of all the true seals, hfiiii>r the |U'ineipal hasis ol'lln- Newlonndland and .Ian .Mayen sivil llsheries. Then it (Icscriltcs ils appearance, nu.diiiiii si/c. ;i nj so forlh. It is preeiniiienlly nre;;arioiis, mi^'ralorv. and pelau'ic. II is nowlii'ie a perina- noill resideiil. and annually traverses a wide breadth ol lalilinle. Althon;;h ars iie\er to resort lo the land, and is sehloin I'oiind on iiriii iec Ahniil Ihe lief;iiiiiinf;or Mai'li. they asseinhleal tlieir lavouiite lir lin;; slalinns, si'lecliii^: lor llii- imipos,. iniinense ice liidils lar IVnni land. Tlicir hesi known ln'ccdin^.' ^.'rounds are Ihe i<-c packs oil' ihe caslcni ci ,isl of New Innndland and .ilmul il'i' island of ,la!i Maycii. OIV the Newloiiiidland coast the youii^ ai e chielly horn hel»(M'n the .'ilh aad lOtli of March: at the ,l;tn Mayen hreedin;.' (.'inuinN helwee.i the •i:W,\ of March and Ihe Mh of April. The females lak(\ up their stations mi Ihi' ice very near caidi idlirr. the ymni^' heliiLT IliMs somelinies horn lud more tlian It feel apart, fhe in.iles ai'slly in till' open poids hetween the ice llocs. The mothers leave their yomiffoii lln- ice lo llsh in the nei;.'ldioiirhood for [their own snlisislence. hnt lliey I'liMpieiitly ri'turn lo liieir yoniif.' lo suckle them. The youiij.' trrmv \i'ry ra|iidlv, and when tin weeks uhl are said lo he nearlv half as laiL'U as the old ones. Then further ahing : The yoiiii}; are said liol l.i ■ diiidarily enter the wati'r iinlil al least twelve d.'iys old. and thai they reipri" iwiii ir live days piaclice liefnre they acipiire ~nl'llcienl streiifjth and pndlciency in ■.wininiiii,!.' to eiialde Ihi'iii to caie lor IhcniNelves. Thei'i; is iiiiol! iiioi'i^ iiil'oriiialioii in Iliis \i'lii'li' if iiii\oiii> i-nri'- lo peruse il : Itiil I will iiol lake lime In rcaii furllieral litis nioiiiiMil. Now vcslcrdnv in coiiiiiu'iiliiii; ii|ioii what had hecn said liy niy lear- ned friends on liie (dhiT side in regard lo llic alliliidi> of Itn^^ia, I found myself deslitnti! al Ihe inoiiieiil of llii> refercnct' llial I desired lo make as -liowin^ Dial Ihe sei/iiies of .\inerican vessels thai was i-el'i rred to hy in» learned IVieiid Sir Charles itiis ,;|. ||i(^ " i'Mi/a " and " llenriella " ^fi-e the siihjecl i\\' a c(n'i'espondence hetween Ihe lliissian (ioveriiiiii'»i ami Ihe t III led Stales lioveriiiin'iil and had iiolhiii;: ;il all do willi I lit' Udsiiicss id' seal lishiii^. or seal hiiiiliii^ rallier, in am way. \nd I vv II pi^t read, as it i- iiol loiif;, Mr l.oliirop's letter. Ihe Minister of llic I nited Stales al St I'elershnr^, written in IHK7 lo the Secretary of Slafc-, in which he jtives concisely Ihe whole fads in re;;iii'd lo those vessoln txttS ■♦liows very cleiW'ly -- -JOIS - lliiil il IiikI iiolliiiii; lo ilo al all willi IIm; snbjoil on wliidi we arc ni-ja- {icd. 'I'liis is |>a);o "22 MlNolnmc 1*, pail "_', nf the AppiMidix lo llio Itrilisli (Insc : I liavi' tliu iiHiKir to liMii-'iiiil l|' a (-(iiiiniiinic Mtldii icrcivcil rroiii llic liii|it'riiil KcMrif,'!! (M'lici'dii llio l>l I'l'liniary iiislaiil. rclalivc Id Ihr M'i/.iiii' (if llii; Srlioiiiicr '• Kliza ". Tlic Itiissian (iovcniniciit claitiis " llial she was mm/.imI and cdiuli'inned iiiului' Ihi' provisions nlaii OnliM' or llo^'iilalidii. wliicli took ullVcl at tlio i)i'j,'iniiin^' of ISSi, and whicli absoliili'ly proliil)ili'(l cmtv Kind of Iradinn linnliii;,' anil lisiiin}; on llie Uiissian I'acilin coast wiliionl a spciai licence from the (iovcinor-dcncral. His not claimed lliat tin' " Kli/.a " was cii;.'af.'cil in seal lisliinv'. Iml tlial she was fonnd rn>.'a;;e(l in Iradiim willi the conlialiaiid arlidi's of aims and slroiiL'; liipiois. Sill! was coridenuied by a (•oinniission siltin;; on the Imperial corvi'lte " llas- lioinik " composed uf the ollicers llicro of. In this res|)ecl tlio caso is precisely like thai of the " llenrietla" mentioned in my last piecedinir de<|iatcli No !>;i and oflliisdati'. II will he iioliceil lliat Ml' Spooner, till! owner id' the l",li/.a, in his ^lalenlel)t ot his claim, declares that the " i;'i/.a " was " on a tradinj; voyaj:e. eiifiai-'cd in harle- rin;.'\\ilh the natives, and calchiiif; v\ alms, and .is such did n-d come nniler the .Notice of the lltissian (iovi'inmeiil, which was diiicl.'d auaiiisl llie caplnru id' seals on Copper Itohhen and Kelirin^' " Islands ". II will he seen thai Mr Spooner either refers to an llrder of 111.' Ilnssiaii liovern- meiit (lill'eront from llie one nieiilioned h\ the Imperl.d Foreign iHlice, or he iiii- dorslood llie laller in a very dill'ercnt sense. 1 may add thai llie llnssian Code of I'li/e Law ol l.sii-J. Article -J and n>>\\ in force, limits the jurisdictional waters of llnssia to :i miles from the shore. .^s slaletl in my previous dcspalch. I have asked for a Copy of the Order or lle- giilalioii under w liicli Iho " llenrielia " and •' liliza ' were seized and condeinned. ', Il is seen lliend'ore liv Hie slalciiiniil ol'llii' Ameiicaii MiiiisliT in ii>- j;af(l til till' claim id' his own coiiiiliv that llie ;:iiiiiiiiU on wliicii lliesi' vessels were seized were, thai liiev v\eie vinlalinj; the Order against Ira- din^ will) the natives, e«|ieciallv in lire-arms spirilinuis liipiors, and the seizure liv the llnssian lioveinmeiil wa-- siihmilted lo lliererore, hv the (iiiled Slates liiivermeiil ami llie claims lor coinpeiisalioii if llnv hail heeii made were mil insisted ii|iiin. .Now I I mile, as I am nearU Ihroii^h with what I mav call llie his- loi'ie iiislaiii'i's id'tlie proleelioii ol' properlv of this description, to the re- cent transaclioii^. so receiil that lliev have come liet'ore voii hv papers siilimilted hv mv learned I'l'iends since the arf;miienl was I helieve lini-hed on their «iile. or nearlv so: al an\ rale al a late slaj^c in the arf;iiiiienl. Tlo'V have snhmilteil two I'arliaiiientarv papec'^, Kiissiu .\o I. IS'.I.'I. and llnssia, No :{, lH',t:(, on lliis suhjeel prinleil alter heiii;; laid hel'oce I'arlia- ineiit : .iiid mv learned friemU seem lo he of opinion that what we had said ill Ihcar^nmenl in respect of the firm and re^olnle adion of Itnssia oil lliis«nhjeel was nd'nied lo some evleiil hv llie correspiindence that is shown to have taken place helweeii the (ioveriiiiieiils in reference lo thai aclion. (In the coiilrarv, in mv jndiimenl llie pooilion t.iken in the ar- ,i;iimeiit is cviiclly conlirmed hv Ihe coriespondence as I shall trv lo point out, readiiif; rronitliel'arliainenlarv paper, .No I . in Ihelirsl place, pap- 1 1 , Ilic letter of .Mr Chichkine. I read from Ihe Iraiislalioil of il. The cor- — 201 !t — ros|K)iul(Mi('o coiilaiiis tlio lollor in Frciu-li ami llie Itaiislalioii as well. II is addressed lo llie llrilish Amhassiidor, and is daled Hie Il'IIi Te- lii'iiary, iW.). ii <>! IIk' iiii'a^iircs lo 1)1' a(lii|i|i'i| III piixi'iil llii' (Ic'-li inliuii 111' llic seal s|H!rii's has licrii uiiih'r ciPii-i- ili'iali'iii lur >oiiii' liiiii' |iasl, ami llial I have Iiim'ii iilili^'i>ii [nivi'il liy Uir nii'li' larl lliat lii';;ip|ialinns wrir iipiiiiliciniil ill ISS7 tielwei'il the (In I'nwi'is |iiiiiri|iall\ . willi [llie nliji'rt nl a;;lrriii;.' iiimii siM'rial anil e^iciillniial iiii'asiiii's. Thai was, as ym will reailiK peireixe, with relerence In Ihe nei;iilia- lion Ihal was inilialed li\ Mr Itavard. Tlh' iiiTi'ssiiy In)- »iirli iiii'a>iiii's lias lii'iii iiinrf lately loiilininil li.v llu' .\ii)iln- AiiUTiraii aarci'iiniil nl' IKMI. Thai i^ llie nim/ii^ rirriiili. Ili'i' Majrslys linvi'i'iiiiii'iil. Iiy lakiii;; pail in llii'si> iii'i:nlialinii^ ami in lliis .V^tri'clliriil, have Ihi'iiisi'lves ailliiilli'd lln' |iin|iiii'l\ nl' a pn^^ihli' i!i|iailiiii' IVniii llu; {.'I'lieial iiiles nf iiilrinaliniial law. Thai is. as j nndersiiind il, llie rule he has j «l referred In respcelinjj; lerritiirial walers. Ihe ^t mile liniil. A I'llillier iiniiil In wliii'li il wniihl in iiii|ini'laiil In call IliO s|ii>rial alleillintinr Her Maji'sly's liiisi'i'iiiiieni is I he alisnhili'ly alinniin:,! ami i'\i'i'|iliniial |iii>itiiiii in wliiih ltii->iaii iiiliTi'~l« ail' |i|ariil li\ llii' •.li|iiilaliniis nlllii' Aii^-'ln \iiii'iiraii A^iree- iiii'iil. Thr |iinhiliilinii nlsi'alin;; williin Ihr liinils a^:i I'l'il il|iiiii in llie iiiiuliis nmidi nf IH|i| has. in fail, laiisi'il such an inciraseiii Ihe ilcsiniclini nf seals nn llic jliis- sian (^liisl, Ihal Ihe ciiiii|i|ele ilisM|i|ii'ai'aiii'c nf llirsi' .iniinals wniilil lie niily a ipirs- lioti of a slmil lline unless cfllcaciniis nua-iiris Ini llnii iiinliilinn wcic l.iken withnill ilcliiy. TIlLMI. Till' iMiinhiT 111 seals in In' kiUcil .'iniiiiall\ i« li\iil hy Ihe Acliiiini^li .ilinn in jiin- |ii>iliiin In Ihe inlal iiiinihei' nf seals In llie \eais IhNU ami I."-'!'!), helnic II sla- Misluneiil nl liie Aii^ln-Aineiican iiinihii nrrniii. Ihe lali'li aniniinleil In .'i.'iiM.'i ami .iiisj:). while Inr (he years |.S!i| ami IS'iJ alter the alinve-ineiilinneil \;.ieinienli llie ll^'iires fell |n .'til ti.s>i and ill ;il,'i. .Villi ill aiiiillier and vei'y dill'ereiil eniineelion. llie i ii|iiirlanee nl' lliis ox|ierieiice will come lo he seen. I do mil |iaiise lo r ••■aik ii|iiiii il miw. On llie nlherliaml, aeeiiii|in<,' In Ihe slali»tical iiihiiinalinii winch the liii|ieiial linvenunenl lias hecn uhle In nlilaiii, llie i|uaiillly nf seal-skins nf lliissian nri^jiii ileljvered hy the si'aleis In the l.niidnn inarkit. imreasi d diiiiiii: lli.ise Iwn years in an iiilliiilely (jrealer iirnpnitinn. ■m •i.- V. ■«.; TIml is In siiy lliul iiiidtT lli('(i|HMali()ii of lln> ///'(/^/.v r/'V///// which |»ri!- (•hiiliMJ Ihc |M'lii^ic- M'liliTs IVom the Ami'riciin |iiirl of Hciirinf; Si-a, while Mil' sii|i|il\ III' Itio^iiiii >lviiis iiii'iraM'il in Loinliin. il so (liuicasiMl nil i\w Islaiiils tlie\ iiad Inlall rioiii .'iiMMlD mhl In ;{l)IMH) odd. I pass rrniii Ihal I'orlhi' |iri'scnt. Ari'iililint; 111 llii'iilisi'i- ,iliiiii-< iiiaili' liv tlir |im-;i1 Aihiiiiii-^tiMliiiii. Ilii> niiiiiliiM' nl' \l•^^^>ls riijiau'i'il ill >r;ililii; ami sciii III 111!" iii'ij;lil)iiiiilin(Ml nl' liir CiiUiliiaiiilrr Islaiiils ami '1 iiir'ni'vs lloliln'ii Muml lia^ :\U<< liiiTiMsi'd (•iiii>i li'ialilv. 'I'lii- liar- liarmi- ami illiiil iiiocim'iIIiiu-. nl' llic-c mmI.i> an- also pruvoil liy llio I'acl. I'.slalilis- lioil \'\ si'i/iiri's. thai imai' lliaiilM) |M'i'ri'iil. nl'lhc si-al-skiiisrairii'il away liv Ilium ail' Iho-c 111" I'liiiali' simU, wild all' lianlly. llrviT, Immil lai licnii tlir ^limii iliiiiii^,' llir ••iMliiif.' ^i-a^nii, aiiil wlidsc ilrsli ik linn I'lilaiU llial ul all Uw \niiii,!.' wliii li lln y arc siicUliiii;. Tllr cli-liiiclivc iliar.nlcr i<( llic lislii'iy is alsn sIioxmi liy llic iiiiiiiliii' cil'si'als wiiiihiIimI or aliaiiil>>iicil mi llic slmri' "V williin ti'irilmial \MiliM'<, ami alli i- waiiN riiiunl li\ llif liical .iiilliniiiio<. It will he seen rniiii thi- llial llic nidiiiciil thai a check jo a j;realei' or less exieiil under this wm^/z/a iv/v/*.// was |inl mi llic jiclaj;ic sealers on the American >ide. Iltwsia \va» |iiil |irc( i-.i|\ jn llic jiosiliiMi in which we siij;- ^csl lo da\ : inslaiill) llic niiiulicr ol' msiIs |h,>\ were ahic to lakeoii llieir Islands Cell oil', lhouj:hlhe ltns>ian skins increased. iniincdiaieK il heeaiiK! a|i)iarenl Ihal pari ol' this calch was t'eniale->. and when laki'ii awav. Iheir yoii!\^ ]ieri>hcd, and ur(liu-.c ^hul nii shore Ihc j;reatep pari was prulia- bl\ lo>l III' ahaiiduncd. This is llie passafTc we conie to : — I'mlcr llir-i rn iiiiii-ilaiici's. wc lliiiil. mil -i'lvi< jii-liiii'il, M, I .\iiilia«sailiiir, in c\pli'>siii;; mir ciiliic (■.iiilldrme llial Ilir Majr-ly's (IdVcM'iiiiirlil will uliiiil lliir iil'fjLMit iirccssjly (i| rcsliiilivi' iiiia^iiics piiiilihn lln: cslalili>llliiciil nl iiilillialiniial sealiii;; ic^iilaUmi- liilwccn llic I'liwns |ii iiicipally cmioTiii'il. Till' liii|ii'iial (iiiMTiiiiii'iil nil llirii' siilc il'i lint Jit'.sitalc to III ni:iii/.c tlic lail llial |ii'nti rlinii caiiiuil lie lariicil oiil in a really sallsliicliirx iimiiiiii iinlcv^ il is |ii o- iltd li\ sniiii! such af;iriiiicril. Accoiilin^ly, lliey arc (li>|insc(l In I'lilcr ililn licj.'o- tialiniis al once willi llic liovcinnicnls nl Ureal liiiliin ami el (lie t'nilcil Slates nl' Aiiici'ii'a: liiil Kiev iccnj;iii/e al llic -aiiic liim' Ibc^ aliMilnie necc->i!y ol iniiiiiilialc |ii'n\i>innal iiicasiii'i s. Imih on accmmi nl iIh- near aii|iinacii nl' tlic scalin/ -ca^nn ami III niilcr in |)c in a |in.iiinn In reply in pind lime In liic i|iii'^|inii I'nn'aincil in yniir Kxccllcmy ~ nnic nl ihc I iili ■J.liil .lanuary. Willi llii« nlijccl. ai.il alli I llinrmi^'li iiivi'sll^alimi, llic liiMiiiial linM'i'niin'iil lias lllnll^hlll licccsvaiy In ilcinlc nii ||i.> Inllnwinj niia'illc^ h. I)i ui Inrcc iliilill}: Ihc vear IS!i:i : - by Tlies do mil sav ; " We ask Ihe consent ol' (ii'cil lliilain " or " we pro- pose this inca>-nre. ' Ihcv sii\ ui'icr poinlin^ out Ihc necessilv : I'lic lin|iciial <.n\ciiinc'nl lia> llimi;.'lil il ncic-sary In ilcciil j lie Inllnwini.' liieaMiic-. I. Nil >lii|i nii|iin\i(lcil \Mlh a S|ici ial aiilhm i/.almn -hall he pcrMiillcil t i ImiiiI lor seals wilhin a ilisjam i nt lo miles aloiif: all llic cnasi hclmciti): In Hn.sia. 'J. Tlii-- [irnhiliilcil i, shall he ;i() milco «ii|c amiiml the i.nmiiiamlcr islainls ami Tnjiiicw Itnliln'ii MamI ai idiii;.' (n Ihe llii«Maii nilic ial in:i|i<, which implies Ihal Ihc passable helw.eii \\,.. c mamlrr Maii.U will he clnscil I- vessels cnj.MKei! ill scaling'. \\ illl rc^;alil In Ihc III nillc /n(ic ai.illf.' II nasi. Ilicse mea-ilircs uill he jlislilieil by till" f;ii'l tliiil vessels on^'a^ii'il in llic seal llsherv (.'I'liorally lake iii> |iosili(ins at a dislance cil I'loiii 7 lo !• miles I'idiii llie I'nasl, while their hoals ami ciinvs eii(,'aj.'e in soaliii^' IkiIIi nil III jast ilsell' ami in leniloiial walers. As simii as a cniinM' i« ^iuhleil. ihe >lii|is lake In the upeii -^ea anil try In roi'^i.li Iheir Imals from territnjinl waters. With reiranl In Ihe .'lO-iuile znne arnnnd Ihe islamN. this iiioa. " While reijiiesliiifj yoii. M. I'Amha-isadenr. In hiinj.' the fnre^oin^r cniisideratinns In thi' knnwledt:e of llei' .Majesly's (iovernni.nt. 1 IhinU il important In insist on the essentially |iinvi«ional eliaracler of the alio\e nieasmes adopted undei' pressnre of exei'ptioiial cirenmstaiiees «liicli may he re^rarded as a ease of /l/jvc iiinjfnyi', and analn)jnils to eases the I'Nception proves tile rule. Ilcri' \oii liavo slalcil over iifiain on (lie pari of lliissia Hie Amorican (•as(> : The force o| Ihe ar:;iiments sel forth ahove will certainly not esca[ie llii> enliuli- li'iied a|ipreclalinn of Her Majeslv '< (lovernim'iit, and 1 am lirnily convinced that they will not lefii-i lo lake steps with ie;.'aid to Ihe Kiif-dish sealin(!-\es and Iheir hoals to Ihe enasi, and within, nr very marly williiii, territorial waters, the ahove-menlionneil inslrnctinns will pie«crilie ihe piirsui! and search of all vessels whose hoal- or, lews shall have hc'ii ohsirved or seized while sealiiif; oil the co.i-|. (,|- within llir /one prnhihitcd hy Ihe pro. i-ional lueasiires for \S\K'k As a st'im^; pre- ii nipt ion res,, Is from the mere lad ol Ihe presence of hoals near Ihe coast nr within the proliiliiteil zone, i-veii when il has heeii impossihie al lirsl lo decide whi'lher thi^s'i hoals were eiiffaKed in -iealiiif.' or iml. il shall he|M nni-.-ilde to pursue and scarcli Ihe vcssids lo which such hoals heloii;;. Tho seizure, on hoard vessels lliiis searched, of special implciiie- ',- euiploviil in sealilii.' on shore, as well as of seal-kins the fficater p.iit of 'vliicli are tliose of h'liiales, will coiislitiite siiflicieiil ;.'rniiiii|s fnr Ihe seizure id llie vessel, in view nf the fad thill the fem.ile -eals, iliirinj^ Ihe season nt sii(d»lin;j their yniiiiL', rarely, if ever, depart fiirli:er than Id miles from Ihe shore, I'xccplin;; on the hank- around Ihe islands. When iiiformin-; Ihi' caphiins oi Kn;,disli <'ijiiiiiiiiiiiiMit(' til tliriii likewise II >timiiiai'y ul' llic iiisli'ii('lioii> wliirh will III* ^Mvim In llii> Ktissinii crui7.l nl' wliiili llic (InviM- imr 1)1' till' lliiiiiiiiaiiilfi- Islaiuls Imists tlio Uiis-ijaii Cusliiiii-liousi' llaj; wllfli lir is mi Imaiil ill llii> iliscliaruc iit his iliilii's. Whoii I wrolf lliDso lilies wliicli my l(>iiriiclrrni;lli (iIwIkiI IIii'\ liad siiiiijiiil iiponllic >li'i>ii};lli oi' wlial tln'v had (Iniic. wliirhwas moii'cm|ihalir. Wlu'ii lliissia liiids horsidf, for llie llrsl lliiiii ill lii'T hisjui y, in llu> |i(isili(iii in which llin IJiiiled Slalos are now ill r(>|ii'cl III' lliis liiisint'ss ut' |ii'iiif;ic scaiiiif;-. o\<'('|)linj; thai lior intcrosi is imii'ii Miialli'i' lliaii lliiisi' of till- Ciiilcil Slali's, whaliliii's slif do? Iii\ilt> (ii'imI llriliiiii III ciilrr iiilo some iiinihis rimiili liy whifli llic do|tr<'- (lalions may ln' sii^iM-niii'd.' Vwv from il. Sho says •• We are ready and aiixions Id enter into the Triple eonvenlion helween the three iialions (•iiiHoi'iieii |irii|iosed in ISH7. We af;ree in llie |)r>i|iriely of sncli a ( .iin\eiiliiin. — we are most desirous; liiil in the niiMiilime wlial.' In Hie iiiiMiilime. direelions will lie issucul lo the ci'iiisers of the Hns>ian liiivri'iimenl and lo all vessels lioi>liii;:: the (aislom House lla^ lo ■iei/e evny vessel llial is I'niinil within .'III mites of the Islands or II) miles of 111!' slini'i'. iind lo search and examine any vessel, nr Ihe lioals of any ves- -el, which liiiM'iin^ niniid lliere, j;i\es reasonahle };i'onnds for >iisci- |iion a< lo Ihe Imsiiies- lliey art! liiiws ymi, in the >ame ncpicialioii-^ and maiiih>s|ed Ihe '^ not to ;;o on. That wa- their pii>i!iiin : and wlial was Ilie iiiiisei|iience. The con>i'i|iieni'e is thai whih; we are here al llii-. lale period i.^'finiiif; of Ihis Nihilralion Mime measure of pi'oleclion Mmiehiiw iii' oilier thai may save this liiM'd of seals, lliev idi- lained from Ihe Itrilisli liovernmenl instaiiliv all that they claimed. I I'l'irr yon In l.uid l(o>e|)i'i'\ 's lellcr iiirepU. I sav llh'X ohlained il a^ a li'iiiiiorai'v ini'iisure ImiI now see what follow The l'!arl of llosclierN. w ilh llii' ilipioiiialii' -Kill for which he is >o ,jii>ll\ di-lin^iiished, no mil ml experierioi' is more eompelenl to occupy Ihe pos I'cl'laiiih III lli-a;"!' a limi thai" he does al tin' pre-cnl mnnii'iil of Minister of I'l vv\-^\\ \irair> In the llrili-li tiovi'inmciil , writes this ■.ciilence : and. if lilcialnicof this Kind were I'M!' aimi^in^, one niii;ht he excused for ind'ilyinu in a smile mi 'aijin:; liii> The Karl of Hoschcry loSir li Moiiier, llial i- Ihe l{rili>li Minister al M. i'elcr-hiiruli : ro; ail II — 20J3 — Sir, Hit Miijcslv's flovcniinonl liiivc (.'iviMi ;h('ir iiii'st (micIiiI ninsidciiiii'iii lo llu' Dull' nl'M, Cllirllkilli' l>r till' I'JIll i-.'lllll llllilllli ilH'lllM'll ill yulll' KMrlll'IK y's lIl'S- |>r|i'li III' (111- liilliiw iii^' iliiv :iiiil sliiliii^-' till' iui'asiin>s whii'h ihi' ltii>siaii linvi'iiiiiit^iit ili'i'iii iii'cossnry I'lir Ihit |ii'oti>rllim III' llicir sealing.' iiili'i-osls in Ijir North I'arilie ||lll■ill^' till' a|i|pi'(iacliiii(; llslii'ry >''a'''iili ami wliirli an' suliliiilli'il to Her Maji"|ieuls tlie nieasurcs lliiil I liii\u jiisl read. Ili'l' Maji'sly's (iovi'i'liliiciil takf imlu nf lliu slalrlin-iils iiiaili' in M. C.liirlikiiir's iiiiti'.liial tiic lltissiaii (iuMiriiiiii'iil have no inlcnlinti ol'ilispiitin^' tin' p-niTally re- rii;.'iiiy.i'il iiiirs uf inlci'naliiina! law as to lerriloiial waliTs, lliat IIh'm' measMirs, of an cM'riitioiial and |iiovi>ional natiiii', an' lU'.sijjiinl to nu'rl a ihi'smiii,' i'nit'i(,'i'iiry, anil that tlii->ia is ili'MJions of I'lilei'lii^' at oni'i' up >ii ilisiiission'- with the llovcni- iiients ol'drral ISiitaln anil llie I nite'l Slates with a view t'l an a^'irenient lielwecn the I'oweis |iiiiirip.ill\ inleiesleil I'ur tlie pidpiT loiiliii! of the mmIIii^; imlii-^tiy. While lli'i Majusly's Kovernnieiil have not eoniinilteil llieMiselvos to a ileeiili'ii opinion as to Ihn ahsoliile neeussily ol' any parliiiilar elass of rei.'iilation lor the |>reser\alion ol' the seal speeifs, they havf iiinie than nnei' expie-srd Ihiir willin- Kia'si lo lake pail in Hie Irainiiif; ot a i-'i'iii'i .il m'Iii'Iii'' |m|- ihc piolc( lion o| ijic -rals ^^llll-ll ^liail have diirie^Miil to the \ai'ioii-' int< rests roneerned. They ipiile recognize that llie pi'i\i«ioiis of the iimtliis iii'iiili aL'ieed upon lir- Iwei'ii lli'i'al Iti'ilain anil the Iniled States teinis lo drivi; the si'alinK-vessels of holh tlioM' nations, whieli have heen aL-eiisloined to result to the eastern part ol Itch- riiiK Sea, lo the waters ailjaeenl to the llnssian eoavls. \tiil SI) nil. I I il iiiil reail all llial iiiili'ss il is |iai-li<-iilat-\ ilesirtMl. SirCharle« Russell. T'le iiexl seiilitiee I slnmlil In- ^hnl il' vmi would read Mr Phelps. I will le.nl aiiv lliiti^ llial is desii-nl eeilaiiilv. Iln M.lj('st\'^ IIo\i'rnnient r niild not .ulinit lh.it llii.—i.t h.is Ihenfoie the ij^lit to extriid hei jiirisilielion over Itrili'-li vessels oul-ide the usual lerriloiial limits, lull they are :iii\ions to atloril all n^sontialile and li'Kiliniate as.taiiee to Itii^sia in till' evjsliiif.' 1 in ninslanees. They are rraily lo iiilir at onn' into an ai:iiiniiiil w Mil till' Imperial (luveriiineiil for the enl'mi < nient ol the proleeliM'zoio's pi up. -id ill .M. llhii likiii.'s Hole on I on ill I ion- similar lo IIiunc o| tlivii iimlnnnrruili with the I liiti'il Stall-, whn II il will hr oIi-cim'iI ai^' of a irripior.il , li.irailir. 'I'lial reads a lillle IIIm' aeet>|ititi^ an iiivilaliiiii llial lia- iiol liecu is-ueil. I liiiil iiiilliiii^ in lli(> iiiitc III' .Ml' I'.liielikiiie lii.il ir\ile> rnuii lireat litilaiii iiiii>.eiil 11- lliesi lieiiiilaliiiDs. Mind a toiiileoiis ami r''-|H'i lliil iinljliea- lioii llial lliev will III' |ii'ii|iiiuiidi'd and iiisisled ii|iiiii and r.irrj.'d iiiln ell'eel wil II the i'\|ii'i's-iiiii III' a eiililidi'lli'i' llial Her Maji'slv's I ioM-i liiiienl will see llie iKMOSsiU (ilid llu* |tro|iiii'l\ id' llieni. The ei)i'i'i's|)i>tideiie(> lii i. I'lir I iiiiisl iinl lake ii|i Ion inueli lime with lliis imli'ss IMS learned Irieiid di'sii'cs me In rcid ■>iimel|iiii^ iiiKi-e id i|, when I will read il with |ih'a>ni'e heeanse il i" im pari nl' iii\ |inrpiise Id preseiil |iai'liall\ this em res|iunileiiee. is Ihal llie ineasiin-s lt(i>>jit pr(i|iiiliiided are agreed lo with silifile addilinn Ihal they will nti (ht; Islands rel'iain liiini laking imtie tliiiii ."K^tHMl seals, I lielii'>e Ihc nmnljor is. Il had ilreadv a|i|ieai'eil liii the las| 1 \ear> llnv h.id milv heiii — W-H — iihli? lo (,'(•! a liltlc inoro lliiin UO.fldO, — thiil |H(i|u)siil of (iicul Hiilain llii'V ii('(;c|il, and lliisiiniDiMliali'ly ('(linos iiilii(i|i(' i|ui'>linn was ili'llnillvi'ly mIIIciI. Till' niily iilca was In prnviili' a niiniiniini nl' iirnliMlivc nirasiiii's, inliinli'il In prcvcnl Mil' ilisa|i|i('aran{'i' nl' Ihi' siili.ji'il nl' tlio disimlc, I'vuii bclni'i' llif; nctrnlla- lioiis Willi M'^ranl In il were cninmi'Mccil. In view nl' llii' nrar appmarh of iho lishing season If il had liri'ii iiili'iidi'd In lay dnwn hasis nf a in-i^lim rirrmli nl Iliis kind. Ihi' liiiprrial llnvi'rnincnl wniild nnl liaM' I'aiii'il In claiiii llial a n'slr'clinn n|' Inrilm iai ri!.'llls. Ihal is In say, llii' i'iigai:i'ii:(>nl In liinil llir niiiulh'mr srals In hi' killi'd nn land, sliniild in I'qnily larry willi il Ilir rornllai'v (if a I'mnjili'ii! |snspi'nsinn nl pi l.i- |;i(' sraliiip in Ilic npcii sea. Ili> informs l^ord Itosohi'iy lluil, il' llii> piirposo olliis luininiiiiiralion had hi'cii III Ciller iiilii nc^olialions, he should have (hMiiandi'd srrx dilVc- I'oiil Icrnis. 'riii> (dijcci id' his coniiniiniialiiiM was In inrnriii lhi> Itrilish (iiivcruinciit id' tin' niiniiniini of prolcclivi' nii'asnri's wliirh llim would nccepi, and il was not Iheir pnr|iiisi' lo cnli'r iipun a iicfjolialioii. Tlii'x wnnid liavi' I'vpi'cially ri'u.iiih'il it ,is inilisprii-.,ildi' In iii.iKf llirir ii'siTva- linns ,i< ri'f;ai'd> llir di'llniliM' st'llliiin'iil nf Ihr si'al ipii'slinii, in ini\iv In rclain llii'ir rnliii' IVi'i'dnin nf \ii'\v as In lln' nii'asiui's In Uv ,i;.'r | iipnii fnr lln' prusi'i'va- lion nf 111'' soal spocii's, w licthiT liy the pinliihilinii nr ii'unlalinii id si'idiiifr in Iho nprll sra. n|' hy llli' I'Nli'llsillll nf ^pi'iial li.LdlN nf pl'nli'ilinii of llial sppiirs III yniiil 111!' various dislaiici'S cnimuoiily di'sinnalrd as llii' limiis of Iciiilniial wali'is. Yi't, al'li'l' iiiakinj; llicsi' ohsi'ivalimi^, I am aiillmii/i'd. \li rAiiihassadi'iii', lo infnrin MUir I'ixrrllriK y 111 il lln- linpi'i'ial (invi'iiiiin'iil, hriii^' aiisiniis In nii'i'l half way any iniirilialniy nMci' on lln' pail nf Ihi' Itrili-h (Invi'inini'iil, are ready Inan'epi llie prnpn.al made in I. nnl Kn-ehi'iy's iles|)aleli, with the exreplinii of suilli! lllodi- lll-allnll- nil Ihi' lirsl pninl. Thai is Ihi' liiiiil oritilliii;; iiii the Islainls. wliirh llmv jii-l iiaiiii': and a Itrilish a^eiil is In he aihiwed in visit llie islands In see llial thai is eoinplied with. Till' ari'anj;eiiienl aj.'ri'1'il npnii wniild have im lelrnspeelive fnree, lu'eaiise ihi' dill'i'l'i'iil eases nf sei/.niescllei'li'd lasl \ ear have lieen alieady examiiii'd hy a spi'cjal (Uimniissioi Hie liasis of Hie general priiii'iples of Inleriialinn.il laiv. Finally, in lefiard In Hie (Irsl pninl nf Hie prupusal (■niilaiind in l.iid Itnsi'hery's di'spahii, thai is Ihal aiiv m-sscI sei/eil shniild not lie (anieii inln a liassian Port, iiiil -hoiild lie haiiih'd over In a I'ln^lisii eniis^'r | ili'l mil read Ilinl, Ihr Imperial (invi'iniiienl are nf nidniiui llial il wnnjii he ipiih' inipnssihio In — •.MI'i.'i — ii|>|>l> il :is il >liiiiils, III iiii.v I'liti' uiiili'i' llic c'ir('tiiii>.. ms uxisliiig tor lliu |>i'i'->i'ii( li-"!!!!!;: scjmiii, t'-.|iciiallv a-* In llii> i'ii;.'a).'i'iiii'iil ^> liiiinl ni'i-r In llie /■.'ii(/lis/i (riiizi'rs 'II- hi til'' iiriiirsi /Irilis/i iiiilli'irili/ tin' Kli}.'lisli vi'ssrl^ ciiil;.'!!! Iii'siiii-siiij.' milsidi' Icniloiial wali'i- williiii llii< riii'liiijiii'ii /.mii's nf III) ami III mili"^. II iiiav III' llial iiiiMii^ iiiav lii.'1'i'alli'r In' luuiiil liv I'niiiiiiuii nmsi'iil In ri'iiicdv llu! inarliral iliriiriillios in Ilic wav nrsiicli an niidi'i'lakiii^ : liiil Uiii|ili'li.'l\ |iaral>7.i'llii' acljou nl' llif cnii/i'i's ul' Iho liii|ic. rial iiavx , ami ri'iuli^r illusnry llif sii|ii'rvisi(iii which Ihcy shinilil i'Xi-ri;iso!ili>iig lhi> I'liasi and mnnd tin' i>lands. In |irai'li('>', any l)ii»ian crni/.i'i' wliiih iiad raplnri'il an Knf.'lis|i vrssi'l wunlil havi' 111 iJiiMi-i' lii'lwcrii llii' alli'iiialiM'-^ ul' srari'liin^' lnr an Knj.'li-*li riiiizcr, wliiih Mii^lil taki' a Inn;; linii>, cnnsidi'rinr llii' rxli'Ul nl' Ilic cnasl, ur I'Isr nl' niidi'rlakln^ a Viiya;:!' ul' .'l.OOO miles In cundnct llii' ra|ilnrc'd vessi'l In llii> ui'arrsl purl, llial nf Mrlnria in r.ulnniliiii. 'riii: lliissian rnii/rrs would tliiis Iji' i^xchisivrly occupied in luukiii;; for Ihc l'ji;.'li>li criii/.i'i's, ur ill making: viiui;.'!'^ In j'nrl Virlmia and hark lhrun;;linnl lliu li>liiii^ si'asnn; and Ih •ii-u|M'ratinn " nl' Mn.' irni/i'is nl' Iwo nalinns mill I, IIkmi'- Ini'i', iiiily 111' il nnininal niic. I'ndi'r IIu'm; circiiiii^tanci'>, and willmul in^i>.liii;^' fur llic inuiiii'iil uii anollirr cssiMilial jiniiil lliatul' llic ahsoliilc ahsiii I rcciprucily in Ihi; Krilisli pruposul, as llii'i'i' arc iinl, imr ran llii'i'O he, any vi"«i'|: under Ihc llnssian 11a;.' cii^^a^'cd in scaliii;: Ihc Imperial (invi'ninii'nl luiisidcr 111. il I'lii' Ihi' ciincnl year il would ho inure simple and pialical In Mihmil Hie inw prnhihilcd zmies, as is llie case as ic;;ai(l'- Iciiiluiial waters, tu the exilii«ivi' siipeivi-iuii ul' Ihc criii/.crs ul' the Impe- rial navy, wlm wmild cniitiiiiK! lo cundnct In I'clinpaiiluvsU all ve>sels cau;;ht ties- pa^^iii); until llie cuiiclu>iuii ol an ulterior a},'reeiiieiit. Till! ('(ii'i'i'S|ioii(leiici' proceeds; ami lliiil is Ihe imn/iis ji^ii'eed ii|iiiii liif iitie vi'iii'oiilv. even ill lliiil, reserxiii;; all Hie rights lo llu! lUissian liuM'i'iiiiietil, (I'ealin^ lliis piiri'lv as an iiileriniMJiali! pi'iivisinii, Hie ieasl, as llie\ sa\. ui'llie iniiiiimiiii wiiicli lliey could accept lot- llieii' proleclinii. The President. — The etiaclineiil is not lor (piile a lull \ear: il is to llie :ilsl of Iteceilllier. Mr Phelps. — ^oiiatiMpiile ri|i!il. Il is not ipiilea i'lill vear. I speaK ul'il in ;;eiieral leriiis. Then on pa lo read IVoni Iliis taiiiliiiu>. and perhaps even tni i miiplii .iliniis, uhicti il wmild he de^ilahle tu avuid : llecaiiseihe liiiperiahinsernmcnl luiild iinl a;:rei' In the ihall in ipieslinii w lljniul suiiie ri">ei\,ilinii> de-ij^ncd In sateniiard their t'reeilnm uf juil;:inenl jii the t'litiiie. It is undcr-tnud that the a;;ieeliii'lit In he arrived at hetwecn iiiir Ivvn (invcin- iiients will leave intact all the ri;:lils ot ltii>s|a in her ten itniial waters. As In iiui rcM'i vatiuiis. they reter tu the pninls niinliuned heluw : I. Ill cnnsenlin;: tu hand uver tu Ihe lli itl^li ailtleil it|e> the i:ii;.;l|..h sliip>ell;;a;;ed in scalill).' within tlie piuhihiled /.ulies, ue dn nut wish tu prejudice, ;;eneiall>. the ipiestion of the liiihls nf a rivei.iin t'owci In extend her leniluiial jiiiisiliiiinii in cerlain special cases iievmid waters pinpeny called teiiilmial. 'J. The liiipeiial linvernmeiit de>ire tu proi-rve cninplcte lihei ly ul action a'^ In chuusing in tlie tiiture hctweeii the Iwo syslems of inolectin;: seals, either liy Hie ■ - iii-'ti — iiii'lliiiil iif :i pi'niiiliilcil /line, iir |i\ i\\r imllhiil nl' I'lilircly |i|'iiliiliiliii^' |ii>|ii^'ii' mmI- iii^. Ill' ir).'iil;illii;: il In llii' iijii'M MM. :i. Till' in'i'si'iil ainiiiK'i'hii'iil iMinint inau> iiiaiiiior Ur iiiiiHiili'ii'd a>> a iniii'ili'iil, ami will he lunkcil npun liy ii'^ as nTan ossmliallv |ii'ii\ i>ional natnic, inti'mlcil In iiiiTJ lui'xcnl ciirniiistaiii'i'^«. Willi II ii'M'i\aliiiiis. \M> an'i'|it llii< Itiili^li |ii'i>|iiisal in llir rullnwintt Imn-i : Tiles llicii ai'iTi'|H>ale(l, wliieli I need iiiil liike up viiiir litiie liy icailiiif; a^aiii e\ee|i| Ihc seniii;l ami llijid as llie\ have bot'ii llic siilijei'l (ifsuiliu (liseiissiiiii) as Ihi'v linalK loiiiul t>.\|ii'ossinii : ICiij-'lisli xesM'ls eni::iv'i'il in liunlin;.' williin Hie iilnre-aiil /unei. Thai is leii miles rroiii llial slinrc ami lliirly iMilcst'i'oni IIm< islaixl : — IliXniiil ltii>>jaii III I iliii lal walei's mav lie M'i/eil |i\ lliissiaii iiiii/.ers, In lie liaiiili'il iiM'i' III i:ii):li>li rini/.ers nr In Hie iieai'e>l |liilis|i aiillmrilies. In ease nl' iiii|ieiliiiieiil or iliriii'iill\ . Hie ('.niiiMiaiiilei' iiT Hie Hnssiaii enii/.er liiiiv cniillne liiiii- sell III seizing llie |ia|iei'-< nl' Hie arnre-ineiilioneil vessels, in mder In ileli\er llieiii lo n lli'ilisli el iii/er, III' In liaiisiiiil llielii In Hie iioai'esl Knglisli aiillmiilies, mi Ihe lirsl ii|i|inilniiily. :l. Her .\laje>l\'> (iiiM'llinielil ellgafii' In luillf; In liial liefme the niilinaiy Tri- liniials. nll'eiinj; all neiessaiy .tinaiaiitees, Hie liiijilisli \es^e|>, wlin li may lie >ri/.eil as liaviii}.' Iiuen eMga).'eil in sealing williin Hie |irnliiliileil /.mies licxniiil Itiis^iaii tei'ii- Inrial waters. .\ii(l llial is a^fivcd lo, Sir Charles Russall. — TImmv is Ihe linal |)assap> in Lm-d IIosoIum'v's Hole ; — " \N illi rci^ard In Hie reservalioii ", on Ilii' saiiir jia^'e. Mr Phelps. — This is rioiii Kurd Ituseherv In .Mr Ihiwani wiin, I ^ii|i|i()se, was Ihc ('.harf^e. Sir Charles Russell. — Vos. Mr Phelps. Willi regaiil In Hie l'rsrl\alinns Iiiaiie III .Ml Clliilikine s Note, ynii will slale llial Her Maje>ly'- linveniiiieiil has taken imle nl llieni, hnl ilms nnl at |iri>eiil prn- |ln»e III ili-i-n--- lIllMl. There i> iinlhiiig III diseiiss. No di-eiissidii Itnd Iteeii iiivik'd. They had heeii slaled liy llii> lliissiaii lii)M-niiiiiMil as Ihc iiieasm-us In whieh they proposed lo re.sorl. Thai nil the nllier liaiiil Hiey iniisl ailhere In Ihe reservalinn |ireviniisly inaile hy them anil ennlaiiieil in ymir N'nte nl' Hie l-jlh nl l|ii> ninnlh, ami llial il is iinilerslnnil lll.il Hie lights ami |insilinii nt eiljieil'nwer are ill iinway alleeleil liy Ihi' eniiiliisinii ul'Hiis [ii'iiv l>iiiiial anaii.L'riiieiil : wiiich is jiisl what itiissia liad said xery eniphaliralU . .\uw I repeal, Sir, with fjreal respect, was I rifihl or iiol in I'nrccasliiif; Ihis corrcspoiidciii'c which, as I have said, did mil llieii exist, based iipmi llie action ol' Itiissia, in characterising her action as linn and resolute, and in saying llial in eoiiscipicncc of tli.it linn and resnlnte action, pelagic scaling; had come to an end in the vicinilv of these Islands (n an exteiil that was regarded as dclriinentar.' W as I right in calling attonlion lo tiic dilVercnl |iosiliiiiis wliicli these two great naliiins occupy today on (hal snhject.' The I iiited Stales deprived of the heiietil of a convention that had once been roully agreed lor and lel'l to prosecute this claim before an — in-n — Arliili'iilioii — Itilssia iiixliiiillNai ninli'il milwlial IIms a«k<'liiiiilil insist ii|Miii.^iviiif; lli(M'i'iiiis ami ;{i'niiiiiU iiiiil liii'»"> III' Mil- iii'^iiiiii'iil. Il'iin liMi'iii- 1 IVii'iiil «a\-< llii' lliis-ian liuM riiiiiiiil. as he iliil sa\ in llii< niiii'M- nl' \\\> iiltsi'ivaliiiii^ lias Ihc ailsaiila:.'r iil' tin' ail\ii'i' III' a ^i-iilli-inaii nl' lar;:i' I'l'jiiilaliiiii in jiilrnialiniial law. I a^ii'r will) liiiii llii'i'c ciiiilil III' nil lii'lliM' i'\iili'Mi'i> III' il llian lln- riini's|iiiii- iliMiri- ami ils ri'siill llian llial IIm' llii<-iaii liuvi I'liiiiiiil kinw in lliis iiialliT |ii-crioi'lN wlial llii'v wi'ir aliiiiil. wlial llirv hail a li^lil In rl.iiin, ami \>lial il was iii'rrssai'N I'm' IIh'iii In asscrl i|' ||ii-\ niraiil In ili'lrinl nr pi'iili'i'l llii'ir iiilirols. .\ii\\ \M- rniiii' III this .Nil .'I. I sJmII iml a|iii|n^i/<' I'm' Hh' linn' I am laKiiij; ii|inii IJiis |iimil. lii'i-aiiT il is ini|ini'lanl il sliiinlii lir iinili'i'slnnil. The President. — .Mi(;lil \m', Mr I'lii'lps. inliT I'mm ymr las| wmiU llial llii' a;.'rri'iiii'iil I'lili'ii'il ii|iiiii lirlwi'i'ii I'iii^lanii ami Itnssia wmilil in \iinr I'si's III' I'liiisiili'i't'il snl'lirii'iil I'm' Ihi' |ii'iili'r|inn nl' I'lir srals. Mr Phelps. — .No. llial is a mtv ilillrii'iil i|m's|inn In wliirli. in a I.iIit sla^i' III' llii' arunmi'iil. I will aililnss nixsi'll. Tlii'V ^nl whal llirs ili- niiimiril llii' .'til mill' /nni' ami llir In mili' /mn'. Tlii'\ fini wli.il llii'V lliiinj:lil was snl'lirii'iil. I inran I'm' llii' li'ni|im'ai\ |M'i-iiiii. \\ Ih'IImt il was snl'lirii'iil m' mil. llial is In sav. wIii'IIiit IIu's witi; iiiislaKcii nr mil in Mil' ^i'ii^i'a|ilii('ai liniils in wliii li llii'v limimli'il llii'ii'i'if;lil is aiinllii'i' ((iii's- linn, llial is aniillii'i' i'iiiim'\imi I shall liaM) nn'a>inn In ilisriiss ami illns- Iralc. 1 rnnii' lliiw In lliis l,ls| rnl'l'i'-|innili'm'i' llli' |inr|iiill nl' wlliill is .mil I II I hai'ilK n-ail aiivlliin^' rrmii il llial on llii! Iti'|iml nl' Ihi.s • '.niiimissinn lliissia mailo rmii|ii'iisalinn In lirral Iti'iluiii nr a^rrnl Id make il. ami I. nl' I'niii'si', sii|i|iosi' will iiiaKc i'mn|ii'iisiilinii I'nr Iwn niil nl si\ nr ('i;;hl M'Ssi'Is. Sir Bichard Webster. I'iM-. Mr Phelps. - Well, mil of lixi' m-ssi'Is llial wi'ii- sri/i'il, -In' has a^i'i'i'il III iii.iK iiii|ii'nsaliiiii Tnr Iwn. ami il has iii'cn. il iinl ilircrlU ni';.:i'il. li'l'l III III' inh'ii'i'il llial llial animinli'il In a rnmi'ssinn mi lln- pari nl'linssia llial shi' hail im li^hl In ili'l'i'inl lii'rs('ll'a;Aainsl Ihrsc aj;;;ri's>iiiiis niilsiih,' III!' li'M'ilni'ial liiiiil whirh.as \nn nlisi'rvr rrmii mii' passa^i' iit mil' ol' llii'sc h'lh'is I liaM; ln'i'ii rcailiiif; is lixnl as thn'i' mill's. || pr-i- I'l'ssi's iinlhiiij; III' llii' snil. Slrmij; as mv vii'ws aii' mi Iliis i|ni's|iiiii I am I'ri'i' In sa\ llial if I hail lii'rii n|inii lln' I'.mninissi.iti In ili'li-rmiin' as lii'lwi'i'ii llnssia ami (irral lliilain wlnlln'r llinsi' Iwn m'sscIs nr rallii'r Mil' nwiii'i's III' Ihi'iii niiisl III' rninpi'iisalril I >limihl liavi' ih'i'iili'il as lln' iiiajiii'ilN III' lln> Cnmniilli'i' In wliirh il wa' ii'l'i'iri'il U\ lliissia ili'iiilnl. II is slalril llial Ilir iiiajm'ilv nl' llii' I'.mnmilli'r lliiinf;lil lln'V slimilil lie jiaid. I shmilil liavi' lirriiwilli lln' inajmih. iiml wliv .' I'l'laiiii scalinf; iii'M'i' hail lii'i'ii |iiailisi'il. as vmi sri', jirinr In IS'.lii. ' m lln-si' Islamis lin shiliili' I'xisli'il nil llli> snhjri'l wliirh wmilil In' llnliii'il In lln' wnrlil. .Nn ri'fiiilalimis hail ln-i'ii |irniiinlf;ali'il. Nn imliri' hail hi-i'ii nivi'ii- Tliose vi'ssels laiiie across in (lie piirsuil nl' tin- hiisiiioss ol' pelafiii' si-aliiij; IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I "' IIIIM 1112 IIIIM IIIIM |||M 1 2.0 1.8 1.25 1.4 1.6 < 6" ► V] <^ /} A VI c': . %./ o 7 //a Photographic Sciences Corporation ^^ «■ ^^ A % V ^^ " . 6^ t\? a o 23 WEST MAIN STREET i not here; nothing is here except the result. The grounds of the Iteport are slf led, that is !hc results of the lleport arc slated in the letter of .MrCliichkine to which I willallude in a niomenl in Xo3. General I'osler reminds me lhe\ had the affidavit in the Counter Case Appendix as to llie locality where these vessels were seized far out at sea, liO or iO miles. Now, even divesting it of all these charges, the special industry and unauthorized conduct of this, wo do not know whether they entered into llie accountor not. 1 am not justified in saying that Ihcy did, and I do not say that Ihcy did hut I sa\ upon the grounds that do appear, and lliis will become more clear, [ am sure, so far as any views that I can express are concerned on what ! shall have occasion to say liereafler in regard to the necessary character of extra-territorial regulations of Ibis sort for the protection of any national interest. ihcy must first be necessary. Without that postulate, you do not advance a step towards jiislilicalion. They must he necessary. No nalion, nobody prelen mus;t be shown to be necessary; just as self-defence by an individual, which may go totlie — 2029 — hey extent porliaps of taking the life of the assailant in the public highway where llie assailant lias a right to he as much as (he assailed, must he shown to he necessary, and the man who assumes to assert it takes the risk of being able to show in his own justification that it is necessary. In the next place, when it is necessary, the means by which it is enforced must be reasonable. A nation cannot do everything even in its necessary protection, unless the thing that it does is necessary. It must be reaso- nable. Well now, these vessels, as I have said, are seized without warn- ing, either actual or constructive, engaged in a business which their Government asserts theyhave a right to engage in; engaged in a business which they have practised with impunity elsewhere, and the loss falls upon Ihem, not upon the Government to whicii they belong. It is the man wiio owns the schooner, and perhaps nothing else, whicii is captured under the circumstances. Why, what is the rule in the case of blockade? The perfectly well established rule in respect to blockade is, any vessel may be confiscated and captured that undertakes lo run a blockade; but it must have notice, it must have actual notice or sucii constructive notice as amounts to presumptive notice, and the innocent vessel not aware that a Ijlockade has been established, accustomed lo enter that port, going in there on a business tiiat it has a rigiit to suppose is lawful cannot be cap- tiu'ed and cannot be held, — it can be turned off. It must be declared in such a way that the world is bound •" take notice of it. And I said, there must be actual or presumptive notice, and presumptive notice is derived from such notoriety as amounts to probable notice. Now, under the circumstances, is it not perfectly plain that on tiie question for compensation lo the owners of these Canadian schooners there is sonielliing else to be considered besides the right of self-defence oflUissia? iMr IJlaine did the same thing; that is lo say, he subslanlially agreed lo do the same tiling, as I have pointed out to the Tribunal in the discussion of the preliminary question, wilii which so much timewas occu- pied, when Sir Julian I'amicefote first approached the .Vmerican Govern- ment with tins proposal lo renew Ibis negolialion that had been com- menced by .Mr Hayard in I8S7. One iironiiiienl fealui'e pul forward by Sir .luliaii, very properly, was liic demand of the Brilisli Government for satisfaction for the vessels tiial had been seized in 188(1 and 1887. \\'liat was llie reply of .Mr lUaiiie lo tliat? I will not detain you by reading llie correspondence; it has been read and, is before you. Why, said Mr Ulaine, strong and resolute as he was, and I need not say that in this correspondence he goes clear up lo the li'ie of diplomatic reserve and courtesy in his very strong assertion of the rigiits of the I'liiled Slates lo protect itself, but even he, at the very threshoUl, meets it with language which is substantially this : Why, thai is a small matter, the whole aniounl is not large. It fails upon men who perhaps Ihoiiglit they were doing what they had a right to do. We wili |iay thai if we can arrange this for the I'ulure. That will not stand between liie (iovernuieiits. It is not worthy of a moment's dispute — 2030 — hclwocn two jjrcal nalions, — llial imllry sum. Wliollior llie scaling owners shall bo indoninidcd or nol. is not llio queslion between the Oo- vernnienls. We are roncerned wilii llie future; let us make an arran- genienl for llie future preservation of lliese seals. We sliall not debate willi you over the value of one of those one, Iwo, or three, or foiu" schoo- ners under the circumslanees. And it is perfectly plain I hat if they had been fortunate enough to have disposed of Ihe main suhjecl of dispute at that lime, this question about conipensalion for these sei/.ures, which is now in a very indirect way before you, would have disappeared and very wisely, it would have been the proper acknowledgment, the proper contirmalion of a friendly agree- ment on an important subject, to make such a payment as thai, and lo forego any dispute on the subject. So (hat the payment of these vessels, under the circumstances, proves, in my judgment, nothing al all. (loneral Foster puts into my hands a summary of the report of these (lommissioners. There were nine vessels seized. Two have been released soon after they examined the fads; Iwo Ihe ('.ommission(>rs recommended should receive compensation for seizure, and in live Ihe condemnation was conlirmed; and it is only right lo say of course that in respect of those five, while the condemnation was conlirmed it was asserted by the committee not that they had been within the line, but that they found that their boats had crossed the three-mile lino. I leave lh;d subject and I claim that out of this correspondence which has taken place, some of it since we liav(> been sitting here and all of it while we w(>re on our way — al least on our side — the ground that we have taken on this in respect lo llussia is completely confirmed, and the ground that wc take lierc in our own| behalf is completely sustained and confirmed by Ihe conduct of llussia and the claims of linssia so far as they constitute any aidhorily or precedent or instance whi<'li is lo be worthy of consideration. .Now a word upon one moi'i^ of these instances of protection of marine property which is the last in the somewhat long list with which I wearied you yesterday and which is the protection afforded lo whales by Norway in liie fiords of thai country — those broad arms of Ihe sea that run up into the country. Now a whale, in Ihe ckissificalion of .Natural History, if nol strictly a fish, is lo all intents and purposes a fish. His home is in the open sea. It breeds tliere — it is allachcd to no shore; nevertheless, in Norway, it appears that these animals find their way up to the fiords where they become Hie basis of an important iiusbandi'y, industry, means of subsistanc(!. Now surely it would be impossible lo state in the way of illustration, any animal Ihat would be further away from the lines upon which those rules of liiw proceed, than the whale, it may be well said the whale is with llie mackerel, the salmon and IIk; cud ; he belongs in the sea alwiiys; be is appurtenant lo no terrilory; he has no iiiihiiiii rvrcrli'iidi; he is brought under no conlincineut or restriction; there is no time that you can put your hand upon him except as you can put your hand upon anv — 2031 — fisli ill llio sea; and yet in llio slalemcnl llial Mr Gram was kind enon^li (o furnish us, and (lie Triliunal willi, tiie ground (akcn liy Norway, (and most properly), is pointed out. Kven that animal, under those eircuins- tanccs, is hroufiiil into the cato};ory of those to wliicii we claim the seals to belong;; and perhaps as it is staled so much more clearly than I can stale it, as well as beinj!; a so iiiueh heller authority than any view of mine can he, I may be excused lor reading a few words of this, and that is all I have to say upon this point. The peculiarity of (lie NDrwcftiaii law (iiinti'd by Coiinsi>l I'or tlit> United Stains, ninsisls in its providing' lor a close season for llic whaling. As to its stipulations about iiiufi' and tei'riloiial waters, such stipidations arc simply applications to a siipcial case of Ibe jfcniTal principles laid down in tins Norwcfrian IcKislation con- cerning llic gulfs and tiie waters wasliingtbc "oasls. A glance on tbc map will bi' sufficient to show the groat number of gulfs or liords, and their iin|iorlanco for Iho inhabitants of Norway. Some of those llord' I'avo a considerabh' dcvelopmrni, stretching Ihomselvcs far into the country and being at their month very wide. Nevertheless they have been from lime immemor'al considered a-; iTuier waters, and thisprincipb; has always been maintained. I'ven as against foreign snhjects. More than twenty years ago, a foreign (ioveiiinicnt once complained that a ves- sel of their nationality hail been prevented from fishing in one of the largest liords of Norway, in the northern part of the country. The lishing carried on in that neighbomhood duiing thiil, II" serie volume l.\j, containing the reasons why Sweden and Norway have not adhered to the Treaty of Hague, Not a woi'il could be added to thai usefully. Put in the plae(>oflhe whale, which, as I have said, in no way atlaehes its(>lf to or l)ecoiii(>s ap- purtenant lo any partieidar property — jiul in the place of Ihe wliale, the seals if Ihey found in the liords of Norway precisely the home that they find in the Prihihtf Islands and there became the basis of Ihe same impor- laiit industry as Ihe whales are as it is, I should like to know whal would be Ihe course of the (iovernment of Norway? What ought il to be — whal it wouhl be it beyond question? — 2032 — Would iiol llialcaso be a j!;rcatdeal slrongor Hum the one wo arc con- ceriu'tl willi? Mr Gram. —1 hegonly lo observe llial llial iislicry wliicli I bave been slating Ibere, wbicii gave use to Diplomatic Corresponilciicc is Cod fisb — not wbales. Mr Phelps. — I beg your pardon, Sir, I did not understand it cor- rectly. Sir Charles Russell. — it applies lo all fisliing I understand. Mr Gram. — it applies to all lisliing; but that instance wiiicii I quot- ed, which was mentioned in the Diplomatic ('.orres|>ondencc, was Cod fishing. Mr Phelps. —That is a fad whicli I did not understand. I had not read that, perhaps, as attentively as I should; and indeed, being so igno- rant of the surroundings, I might readily fall into an error of thai kind. Thai fact slrcngllicns what I was saying — it carries the principle further than if it had been limited, as I supposed, from reading the memorandum of Mr Gram, it was limited, namely, to the case of whales. Lord Hannen. — As I understand, it is based on tiiis view, that those fiords are territorial waters. Sir Charles Russell. — Ouite. That is the real point — just as the large hays in America arc claimed. Senator Morgan. — There are no territorial waters four miles out, arc there? Mr Phelps. — Wiiat is the authority for that? Sir Charles Russell. — The statement. The President. — That may be a case for discussion between nations. It is the assertion of the Norwegian Government. Mr Phelps. — That is exactly what it is. Lord Hannen. — 1 only meant to point out they did not base it upon an industry, but lliey say that it is within tiicir territorial waters. Mr Phelps. — With great submission, My Lord, I respectfully insist that it is exai'tly the haUislri/ upon which they base it. That is all there is of it. What Mr Gram says is, they have never adojilcd the three mile limit. He says some of these fiords, as tiie map siiows, are very wide. I do not find anything in this memorandum, or in Hie statute, or anvwhcre else, and I iuive been commended lo nothing by my friend's ar- "iimcnt, lo indicate that Ihcy siiould maintain that, or would undertake lo maintain it upon the mere territorial limit wliich the worUl generally has adopted of three miles wide. It is because those fisheries arc made the subject, as is said here, of a great and valuable industry, that they decline lo discuss the question whclher lliey are exactly witliin, or exactly without, a limit which is not for Norway alone to fix. II is not in the power of anv one country to fix, in the face of the world, what the terri- torial limit must be — thai must come by the consent of nations. If Norway was lo undertake to assert, or an\ oilier country, that tiic limit should be 50 miles, that would nol make it so. No other seafaring na- — 2033 — lion would l)e boiiiul by lliiil, if llial were all. .N'orliuve (liey iiiuierlakeii so far as lo put forlli any asserliou wilhoul diseiissiii;; how wide Hit; liord is without discussiti}; how wide; the territorial line may be, wliicli is adop- ted by the consent of nations, and wiiich, as Mr Grain says, Norway has never estopped itself — precluded itself — by agreciri;:; to. Wliat ever that may be lliey will not permit foreign vessels to conic there and des- troy that industry on which llieir people deix-nd. The President. — Hut, iMr I'hclps, whether tiie assertion is founded on the principle of extension of territorial waters — wiiether it is founded on the defence of a national industry — do not \ou think Unit concur- rence with the views from other nations is equally necessary? Mr Phelps. — 1 do, and that is the very strength of the position that I have been attempting to maintain. Your question. Sir, anticipates the remark with which I was going to take leave of this brancii of the case, upon which 1 hope it will not be thought I have taken more time than is necessary, although I fear I have. What do we claim from it all — from everyone of these cases where in so many nations, in so many watei's, so many kinds of marine, or semi-marine, or submarine property ilhe foun- dation of an industry and husbandry), has been successfully protected, and is protected to this day — what is it that we claim from that? We claim that it shows that in every such case it has been ;iecessary for the nation to assert, and the nation has asserted, a property interest, well described by Mr John Quincy .\dams (in some language that I shall refer to in another connection) as an interest that may, perhaps, he an incor- poreal interest, ar. I suggested tlie other day in the 0|iening of my re- marks. The term " property "' is large. It is indelinite : it is broad. Nations have been com[)cllcd to assert, and in every case they have asser- ted, such a properly interest in an industry founded upon these animals as entitles them lo protect it from destruction ; and in every case Hie wliole world lias so far ac(iiiiesced and assented lo that assertion, wiiellier it has had the necessity to make similar assertions for itself or not flic whole world has so completely assented to, acquiesced in those assertions, that the exhaustive diligence with which this case has been prepared has not shown you one instance, except the solitary instance (if il comes up to thai), llial .Mr Gram referred lo, when, lo the surjirise of his people and his Government, a foreign vessel made its appearance llieie, and proposed to take part in these (isheries, in violation of the regulations which arc now established. There is not another instance in Hie whole length and breadth of this case. There is not another instance, either, where a nation having this pro- perty has failed to assert il, or where any other nation, ,'or individuiil of any other nation, has openly ventured, dared, or proposed to infringe it — not one. Of those few instant'es, [iriiicipally of the seals in the south(;rn hemisphere, where a nation was i-egardlcss of its iiitcresi, pcrluips al a day when Iheinterest was not so valuable — has omitted in respect In the seals 4o make that assertion which would have been respected as it always — iont — isil'it liad been iiiude — wlial is llic coiisfijiieuce? Tlie uiiiiiial lias perished off tlic loi'rilory w liore it hcioiiffs. 11 has gone. Therefore these llircc posliihdes may he (iriiwii, without any coiitradietioii, from this lonj,' (•jries of cases : first that tlie properly interest is always asserted where it exists; secondly, that it is always respected where it is asserted thirdly, that in a few instances where it has been omitted, not from fear of the ri;;lit oi' assertinj? it, hut from nefjlect, wiiethcr l'ron> the comparative unimpor- tance of the industry — the consetjuence has been that it has gone too; and if it had not been for the statutes that I have referred to, there would not at this day iiave been a pearl oyster nor an oyster bed, nor a coral bed, nor a seal, on the face of tins carlii. And then llie Herring l-'isheries — even those pure lislieries of tho open sea that Ido not pretend come within the purview, except in i very wide view of it whicii it is unnecessary for us to take here — even those it is questionable whether the places that know them now (where they form so important a part (tf the existence and the industry of the people), would know them al all. I do not mean to say that those lish would have been exterminated fi'oni the earlh because they have the whole woi'ld — all seas are their home. They can go elsewhere. They need no particular shoal — no place. I do not say the herring and the cod would have disappeared from the earth — llicy would have disap- peared from those shores where they constitute the commercial interest, the industry, the means of subsistence. .And I say, therefore as the con- clusion, of this that when it is adjudgtMl, if it is ever adjudged — and I shall not believe it lill llio judgmeni is i)ronounccd — when it is adjudged that the fur-seal — (more valuable than any one of these products, more closely attached to the soil wiierc it pi-opagates and belongs, ten times over than any of these products) — is to be excluded, and that the righl of extermination is in any individual man who chooses to go there and perpetrate ;l, you have then placed this animal, which should be the very first to come wilhin the purview of these princi- |)lcs, upon a footing upon which no similar animal, no similar product stands or ever has stood, and you doom him to immediate destruction. Von may talk about llegulations — I shall iiavc something to say about that by and bye : not much — you may talk about regulations, which v-a substitute for a dispute, as a means by which nations couhl bury the (js- pute, and come together and agree upon a demonstration of what woul 1 have been the right of either of Ihem to have enforced as against the other, if they thought proper — you may talk about that and it lias its merits when if comes about in that way ; but as the substitute for that right which alone has ever been sufficient to protect any such pro|>erly, it is a mere rope of sand: and nothing thai 1 could say would demonstrate that so conipletely as the arguments ol' my friends on the oilier side who day after day, have been haranguing you — I say so rcspecfully ; I do not use the word approbriously — havcbccn addnjssing you, |)erliaps. 1 should say — urging under the guise of Hegulations that you shouhl adopt a scries of measures that would defeat the very end which, theoretically, they — -nrxi — iirii iiilcndod lo subserve, wliicli would |iromole the very business which we are eiideavoriuf,' lo restrict — pointing out in every step of their argument, the (Mnl)arrassmonts, the dilliculties, llie vexations and uncer- tainties thai would attend any ellorl to enforce any sort of a Code Ihat the learning and skill of the ablest men in the worhl would he able to pi'cscribe. Now a few words on the quesiion of law — on a question of law Ihat like so many questions of law in this case, is, in my humble jud(;in(Mit, quite likely to be mistaken, outside the necessities of this ease. — Upon what theory do statutes of this sort, thai we have been perusiuf? ever since yesterday mornin),s lake ell'ect? Says my friend : A Statute lias no ope- ration outside of the jurisdiction of the country that enacts it. That is very true. Thai is a mere axiom in Ibe law. How then do llie statutes |)rotect these seals? They are subject to Ihat general rule. Tiiey protect lliem upon eitiier of two theories, either of which is satis- factory — both of which are abundanlly supported by authority. They are sometimes upon one ground: tiicy are sometimes upon anolher. II is immalerial upon which ground lhe\ slaud, as long as they do stand. .A slalute — a municipal statute — which has elVecl of course oidy within the jurisdiction of the territory. .\nd upon nationals outside the jurisdic- tion — how docs that operate? Well, in the first place, what is the jurisdic- tion? We agree that it cannot exceed the jurisdiction; what is the juris- diction? Well, to begin with, the jurisdiclion of a nation is lo the water line — thai is plain enough nobody disputes that. Then il has come lo be understood and considered thai ii extends a certain distance into the open sea — the " high sea ", as il is sometimes called. II extends a certain distance into the high sea for ccrliiin purposes only. The general jui'is- diction of a nation through its statutory enactments docs not extend v.i inch beyond the water lino — low water mark. It cannot forbid, for instance, any vessel [o sail up as near the shore as ilcan, assuming Ihat il docs no harm — I am speaking as a general rule. It cannot exclude vessels — from coming within three miles — Ihat is perfectly certain and agreed upon everywhere. To cxrhiclc them you must connect their presence with souk; mischief, some barm some danger; hut the juris- diction for the ;} miles, or the cannon shot, or whatever indelinile dis- tance it may he, is not a general jurisdiction, il is a jurisdiclion for all necessary purposes leaving to the nation a very liberal discretion in delermining what " necessary piu-poses" are — nothing else. Suppose il was exacted, for inslance, by some country Ihat no vessel should come within three miles, that would not stand. Suppose it was exacted thai every vessel that came within 3 miles of the shore should haul down its Hag and hoist the Hag of thai nation for no purpose — not to answer any act of quarantine or revenue, or anything else, but merely as a matter of caprice — that whenever a vessel gels within three miles of France she must haul down the American Hag or the IJritish Hag and hoist the French tlai: Whalfor?" because we want her to I Is il to answer any 267 — -20:111 — jrood |iiir|t()so .' No! Would lliul slaiid ' Would tlic iml!:iiis of I ho world lit; ex|i(Mi('(l lo suhiiiil lo iUnl! Wi-ll, llu-ii. Ilic jurisdiclioii ol'a iiidion oulsido of llio nvjiIim' line il will Im' iicrccivfd is a s|ii!('ial jiirisdic- lioii. Iiisiilr of its territory il may pass any law llial it pleases and lias only to sotlle willi its own people — no olliei- nation ean say any Ihiny; altoul it. ir one hall' ol'a nalioii chooses to enslave the other hall', no other nation has anything lo do with that — thai is a nntttcr that il must scllle wilh its own people. Iteyond llu? waler line il has a jurisdielion np to a eerlain extent lor eerlain purposes, proper purposes — revenue, (piarautine, pilotage, tnerylhiuf; that a reason eau he j^iven for — all the uninnerahle things; and an exclusive right, uiuiuesliouahly, of lishing and hunting and all thai sort of thing, the products of the sea. Well, then, does il lerininale on the lliive niilo line'.' I shall have occasion pretty soon — (I will not slop nowj — to point out, upon the very highest and most recent authority, how utterly vague ami uncertain this idea of a Ihree mile line is. But call it three miles for the piii'pose of my present discussion, and assume that Iho whole woi'ld have agreed lo cull il just three miles — no more ; no less, — does it slop there '.' How comes it there beyond the shore line'.' — Because ills necessary, by universal agrement, Ihal nations, lor their own proleclion, should have that much; and therefore il has become setlled by the usages of nations that they shall have it — in other words that they shall add three miles of the high sea to their territory for ceilaiu purposes only. .Now does il slop there '.' I toes il slop at this limit of Ihree miles ? II does not stop there if there is a just necessity in parlicidar cases for extending il fur- ther ; and 1 shall cite authorities to show thai while beyond the three mile line Ihejurisdiclion becomes still more special than il was inside, it is still more reslr'ictive nevertheless, when it comes lo |iass lliiil the three mile limit is not enough lo answei' the purposes for which it is accorded ; bill that for special occasions, perhaps revenue, perhaps {|uaranline, perhaps lightliduses, perhaps anything thai is reallv necessary, the jurisdiction of that nation — I mean the special jurisdiction — Ihejuris- diclion over wah'rs. on the sea, goes farther still in Hie adjai'ent waters — goes as far as may he necessary, which in this connection, nalurally, would not be verv much farther. Il has been uxteiided to twelve miles and to various distances ; and I maUe this assertion not myself — I pro- pose loshow that that is exactly the exception, the addition, the exlenlion, or whatever you choose lo call il, of the doctrine of the three mile limit — that the Ihree mile line, in Hie lirsl place, is accorded to a nation lo whom it does nol belong — .(hat il is jus! as much a part of the high seas as Hie middle of ocean llitil il is accorded to the iialion hy universal con- sent lo which il does not belong, as a limit within which that nation may extend a special jurisdiction — what I niav call a lilienil special juris- diction — because what Hie \ali(msclios(! U do wilhiii that is presumably necessary. They have a larg(! discretion, still il is bounded; and that when, oil the oilier hand, while Uieir jurisdiction is nol complele wilhin — -JO.'tT — llic llti'co mile lini' Itocniisc il oiilv oxlcnds lo proper siilijcds and prn|)or cases, llu'ii when llie case ilsell' — llii? real neccssiU of llie i'as(! — mil llie capi'ice ol' llie nation extends t'in-llier, \cl tlie jnrisdiclion of tln> nation ^oes vvilli tlii> iiec(s to assert that, must he |n'epared to jnstify il. 1 do not at all say that l)ecans(> a nation chooses to assert that a six mile limil or a ten mile limit, for certain pnrposes, are essential lo its |)n)lec- tion, that it is there npon entitled to possess itself of that limit. It asserts it and the jndf;inenl of the world — llir world — is the Trihunal. >'(diody can hrin^' a snil; nohody can ask an injunction as they would in municipal law. No Legislalin-e can he applied to to pass a statute Unit should res- trict that assertion. When a nation in the exercise of its (iovernnn'utal power makes such an ass(>rlion as that, it hi'iiigs its case hel'ore the Tri- hunal of the world, and there il will he decided one way or the other. It will be determined hy the repuiliation of nations, — the refusal of na- tions, the dissent of nations from such a proposition as that and the refusal to respect it, and then it perishes. It is a mere asserli(m that is found in the jndj^ment of mankind lo he an unwarranted assertion, and it falls to the f^ronnd. On the other hand, when il is .seen hy the civilized world that this extension in a particular case is proper, it is ri^ht, il is necessary, it works no harm i\r injustice to ai'.yhody, it does jjive the nation its jnsi and noci^ssai'y protection — then it is aftii'med, and, hy the ac(|niescence of maid\ind it conu's to he estahlished as law — it comes lo he estahlished just as precisely as what is called the •• three mile limit " has come to he estahlished with the sinj;le exception that il derives, nn- douhledly, additional force from the numher of cases in wiiich il is endto- died in Treaties, which, while they do not make law of course for anybody hut Ihe parlies lo the Treaties, nevertheless shew llu; recoj^nition of Ihc proprieties, the justice, ol certain propositions hy Ihe nalions of the world. If it is convenient to yon, Sii', lo adjourn now, il would he agrcahlo to me. The President. — Certainly. [The Trihunal them adjourned for a short time.j Mr Phelps. — I had stated. Sir. before the adjournment this morning one of Ihe theories which it appears to nu', both upon principle and autho- rity, the eflieacy of municipal statutes or regulations adopted for the pre- servation and protection of marine or semi-marine products appurtenant •o the shore beyond the ordinary territorial line may depend. That is to say, llinl llio queslion iiivolvos llic enquiry, wlial is the loriilorial lino I'or such |(in'|i()S(>. I |>osl|)onc rclVrriiif; lo varii)iis anllinrilios in supporl ol' lliat vii>\v until I liavo slali'd audtlii'i- Hhmmv o(|ually a|i|)lit'al)l(> and iM|uaily sn|>|)oi't(Ml l)\ aullioi'ily, i)U('iiiiso llic aulliorilii^s I |in)|i()S(> lo rclVi' lo lit>- loii},' lo il so •;(MiiM'all\ in n'S|t(>cl lo bolli llicsc proposilions llial tlicy ran lt(! nion> ailvanla^i'ously laUcn up al'lor holli liavo Ih-imi slali'd. Now a s'alulc, as il a|i|)oars lo us — a niunici|ial slalulc nnIucIi lakes cflfcl williin any line of leri' orial jurisdiclion, say, for instance, a liireo- mile lino or a cannon-shot !,iie, wlialevor line may he prescrihed — u slu- Inle whieh lakes oireel within that line, as a sliuute is enlorred hy juiii- rial jiroeess, is law — wiielhcr il is necessary and proper and ju>l oi' not, does not depend u|)on llio cxeenti\e aulhorily of the country al all — and thai is lo say, in a represenlalive (lovernnienl, where Ihere is a lef;islali\e power willdu the territory, it is tiie ahsolnte and positive law. It is the business of liie executive lo enforce il, if iiis interposition is necessary. It is the duty of the Courts of .lusliee lo f;ive ell'eet lo it whenever the case arises. Outside of the jurisdiction it has the same elfect as far as those suhject lo llie national jurisdiction are concerned. Tlu^ ships of that power on the hl'^h sea ar{> still suhject to that municipal law . Then when it takes cH'ect, as we have seen these always do lak(! efl'cci sonieliosv hy the consent of the world outside of Ihe ordinary territorial line, and upon liiose who are not nationals under that jurisdiclion they may be said not to take ellect as statutes, but as what may be called " defensive rej^u- lalioiis ". The lerm is not material. It expresses the idea that I am Iryiuf!,' to convey. There is no mafjic in liie lerm: there is no authority in the lerm. It becomes a regulation wiiich Ihe executive of the country mas or may not enforce in its discretion. It is no longer a statute which must be enforced, it is a provis i whieh may be enforced or may not be enforced. In order lo justify lo other nations its enforcement the conditions unnecessary to its eflicaey within Ihe jurisdiclion must occur — liisl, that il is necessary, then that il is reasonable. So that this pro- vision, or regulation, whatever you choose lo call il which takes etl'ect by a statute and by judicial enforcement within tlie jurisdiclion becomes witliout, oidy Ihe guide, the measme of the executive authority whicli the executive migiit adopt if tliiM-e were no statute alall, subject lo a (juali- ficalion which I shall stale in a moment, a pari of the defence of Ihe coun- try wliich is in tlie handsof ilsdovernment, which may belegislaled upon undoid)ledly, hut wiiich wheliier legislated upon or not, must always be enforced hy the executive department of the (Jovernmenl which has con- trol of the arm of I hi' national force because as the writ does not run on lo tile high sea except as against nationals, and the sherilf of the county or the marshal of the district cannot go there with his |)rocess when such a regulation is enforced at all, or whatever you call it, it must be enforced by the executive power of the (iovcrnmenl , because the right of self-def >nee is declared lo be the paramouiil right, it is not merely the right of an independent nation ; il is the paramount right to whieh all others give way. — 20:i!) — II is llio (irst duly of llio r>\('ciilivc, in llio noccssary case and liy llio |ii'(i|iiM' iiii'iins, lo I'xi'i'l lilt' arm of powtM' lo iirolcct llir iiilnrcsl ol' llie lidviM'iiiiKMil ; and llial diil\ would |)i> not IIk; l(!ss iniic Ic^tislalivo l)c|iai'l- nicnl of llio (lovcriinioni had failed lo inliTpovo. II would still remain, (hi llic other hand, it is not lost if the le^Mslalive he|iarlnieiil does inler- |iose. As it is not neiessai'N Ihal they should confer it, so it is ini|)ossihl(> thai tiiey should laki> it away. Kul Ihe propriety of a statide in sueh a case, liie necessity of which does not exist, is in order to niuko the act which is necessary liUc'wise rea-ionahie. it is not the sliilule thai niaKes it necessarv ; the necessity conies from without. II is nol Ihe statiile liial authorises tiie executive or i-equires the tjxecntive to eid'orco Ihe na- tional defenci'. The statute neillier jj;ives il nor takes il away ; but when asafj;ainst another nalion the ait of defeiu'e is exerted, it must notoidy he necessary, ilmust bereasonnltlc. What is reasonable? ileasonableintlie manner of its exercise; reasonable in the thin}; that is done. \\ here the necessity of acase will be answered by capturing; a ship, for m^-iincc, and briii^fin;; il in, a nation is not lo sink that ship into the ocean AJlii alien board, to burn it, to execute or even lo imprison, as has been well enough said by my learncul I'liend iu reference lo a jiulgment ';i his ca^'C that I shall have occasion lo allude to. The manner of the .lelf-defenee, "m u when I'r.c I i' essily is conceded, must be reasonable, and reasonable in view of the nsnui? of nations as far as there is a usage l!> I applies, — reasonable iu its adaptation to the necessity, not transgressing the neces- sity; just as in the case of individual solf-defence even where Ihe necessity for it arises, il must slop when the exigency is met. A man may com- mit a Clime by carrying a measure of self-defence, that was well Justilied lo begin with, beyond Ihe necessity of the case. ,\u excess of violence or force would render him amenable, criminally or civilly, although the necessity of the defence lo a proper extent would be well justilied. Now, one of Ihe incidents ihal must always attend, and the least rellcc- tioii will show that it is an indispensable requisite, is Ibal before measu- res of force are resorted to in defence of a nalion, reasonable and proper notice, proclamation or information shall be made lo the world of the ob- jection that exists lo what is being done and of the regulation or the defence that il is proposed lo exert. Why, it was a part of my learned IViends argument, in dealing with these seizures in the liehring Sea which I should nol otherwise discuss because, as I have said, they have no weight before the Court, — il was a part of his argument, " You have sci/ed these vessels wilhoul giving notice to fireat Itritain that you were going to ". Well, if thai had been true, I mean by that if Ihe fads that had taken place did nol amount to sufticient knowledge, there would be great force in my learned friend's suggestion. This was the very point that, as I have remarked this morning, was the infM-mity of Ihe seizures that were made by llussia ol the Canadian vessels for scaling. A vessel came there with no notice whatever Ihatsealing in the high sea was going to be prohi- bited there, and il bad nol been elsewhere; and the lirsl warning that the — 2040 — vessel hod was lliis seizure. Itussia may well say llial if was necessary lo do it. " Wo caiinol |ii'osei've tins industry in any oilier way ". " Yes, l)ul is it no ^ssary llial you sliouid resort to the extreme measure of ( iip- liirc and confiscalion of a vessel hcl'ore you iiad {^iven them notice no! lo do here as tlicy could do elsewlnu'e, aiui;;ive tliemafairo|)|)orlunil\ lowilli- dra\\",asit is presumed that they would withdraw when they found thai the nation affected ohjeclcd lo it; and then when tliey declined lo withdraw and persevered in face of the ohjection and the notice, tiien it is time to ^0 a step fuither and enforce your Hepulalions by actual seizure. That is what a statute does, and that wouhl be the weakness of the position of the President of the United Slates if without any act of C.on- {jress vliich hy its publicity gives notice to the world without any produ- malion or dei"....ation he sends a vessel of the navy which is under liis command as execution and says seize that vessel and brinj^ it into Court — there is the weakness. It may be; necessary that measures may bo resorted to to stop the depredation of that vess('l, i)ut it is not reasonable that it should be resorted to until the notice lias been };iven lo that nalion or to liie vessels of that nation, and therefore you see transpirinj!, in this very correspondence that whenever a statute of thai kind is passed, or a proclamation of that kind is made, the (iovernmeni whose vessels are abroad and likely lo be alVef other nations shall not do il, we cannot justify that proposition for a mo- ment, if we |)ermil our own citi/ens lo go out ami wreak Ihe very destruc- tion which they object to other people wreaking. Therefore, as the first — 2041 — step in the rcasoniiMoncss of such a proposition or rcj^ulalion as thai, you must show that \vc iiavn prohihiti'd it to our own citi/.cns to hcgin with. Wc luive made it a crime wlicrever our writ runs; wherever the jurisdic- tion of our Court readies, there tliis tliinj;; is a crime. Tiuxt is the tirsl tiling. Tlie next lliing is that wc give notice to the worhl, by these public sta- tutes, that we propose to require other nations to desist IVom doing that which is a destruction of our interests, and wliich wc have made criminal against our osvn citi/eus. Tiieie tiie fonndation is laid for saying tliat such an act is, in liie first place, necessary, which, of course, remains to he seen, and which the nation lakes the risk of. It is not necessary, because the nation says so. In the lirst place it is necessary, and in the next place it is made reasonable when we hav(! requii'ed our own citi- zens to ai)stain, at whatever cost or detriment and whenwc have notified to the world what we propose to do. Then that can oidy be done by a statute; I mean, the lirst of those requisites can only bo done by a sla- Inlc, that is, restraining their own citizensand their own ships, and their own nationals; and the slalule, though not the only means of giving no- lice to the world, is, |)erlia|)s, the best means. NN'ell, then, suppose that Congress or Parliament, whatever the legislative body is, perceiving the necessity of such restriction, passes such statutes, it still remains for the execulive of the coimtry to enforce them, because they can be enforced in no other way, as I have remarked — it still remains for the execu- tive to enforce them. If he declines to send the ship, or the cruiser, or the armed force, whatever it may be, why, then it is not enforced; but if he sends it, then it is enforced; and then the ((iiestion arises be- tween that nation and the other llial is affected, « Is this a necessary thing to do in protection ofyour iiileresi? Is ila reasonable thing to do? » If it is it will be supported. The reguialion then becomes, in the first place, thi'ough the slalule, obligatory upon the citizens. It becomes in the se- cond place notice to liic world. It becomes, in the third place, the guide iuid Ihe measure foi' the action 'f tln^ executive, not necessarily to control it, because he must ad upon his own discretion; but the guide and the measure that is suggested to him, which is analogous to what is enforced against his own people, for enforcing the defence of the nation. I have said the existence of such statutes does not prevent it being a defensive ad. It does not make it necessary, so it docs not prevent it. Suppose the Parliament of Creat liritain should pass an Act that no per- son should gi. on board of a llrilish sliip without the permission of the (iouimandci'. Well what is the result nf Ihal? Why the result is within Ihe jurisdiction of (ircat Mrilaiii wherever Ihe process of its Courts run, Ihe mail who violates that slalule is subject to prosecution and Ihe Court has no discrcl'on aiioiit it except lo adiiiinisler tlu^ law as it liiids it in a proper case, W hat is IbeclVed outside? Why as a statute strictly no- thing at all. The jtiocess of the Court does not run outside. lUil sup- — iiOii! — pose the executive of Great Britain, or of Her Majesty's Government issues an Order directing that it siiould be enforced that no man siiould be permitted to set a foci on a British vessel in port or out without (irst ob- taining the permission of the Commander of tiial sliipare you enforcing a statute? Certainly not, because the statute does not reach there — you are enforcing a defensive regulation, one that the Parliament and Ihc exe- cutive f-oncur in thinking is desirable if not necessary. Well, is that diminished? The Governement would have had a right to give that order in tiie absence of any such statute and without any such Statute. Her .Majesty's Government may give orders to the Commanders of ships if that wore necessary, " Permit nobody to set foot on your vessels without permission first obtained. " In one sense you say you are enforcing liiut stalut(!; you are enforcing the effect of the statute. Inside of the realm, you are enforcing the statute itself; outside of the realm, you are accomplishing the etTect of the statute by executive force. Inside of the realm, you prosecute the man who violates it; outside, the officer of tlial sliip fakes tlic man by force, sends him off if, and uses all the force that is necessary to keep him off, no matter what it may be; if he insists on coming on honrd in violation of the order which the Officer lias received from his (iovenimenl. Tiien there is no limit at which he is required to stop to carry out iiis orders and preserve the sancliy of his vessel, lie is not open to be fold tiiaf you are enforcing a British statute in France, because if is nothing of the kind, lie is enforcing in a port of France on a Britisii siiip by llie strong arm of force that which he was required to do, and all that lie is doing is securing file same observation of a statute that would be enforced by tiie provision in the statute in the country itself. Now, I have dwelt longer liian I intended to upon a distinction that is without a substantial difference, a distinction that is technical, tlial is theoretical, of the precise legal ground, if you are required to analyse it, upon which tiiis exercise of the right of defence stands. It may be sup- ported and il is supported by tiu^ most respecfai)le authority upon either of these two llieories, — eifhei- in the proper case, in tiie necessary ciise, fiiat file jurisdiction of the Governmeiil itsci' goes far enough, or that, if you terminate llie jurisdiction at an arliitrary line, then llie jiower of tiie (ioveriinient in flie exercise of self-defence, ;is suggested and guided and directed by Hie ((rovisions of the statute, is made reasonable, is notified to the world, and is enforced in that way. Now. still a little furlher on this subject of national self-defence in respect to its llieory. if I may be pardoned for talking about elemenfarv principles to those who undershind them better than I do. \\ liaf is the right uml the limit of national self-defence? .Vs I have said before, it is the first of all national rights; il is the most imporlant of all, — it may be the most necessary of all. II goes, or it may go, to the existence of the nation ; it may slop much short of thai. I'erhaps you will pardon nie for reading some extracts, and I will — •■2043 — read from llic Notes ia llie United States' Argument, page IV.i, to save the trouble of turning over tiie volumes. I read (irsl from Vallel : — Since, llion, a nation is obliged to preserve itself, it lias a right lo evervdiinLr necessary for its preservation, lor the law of naluro gives us aright lo everything wilhonl which wo can not fulfill our oli.igations. A nation or stale! has a right to everything that can helj) lo ward oil' iniininenl danger and to keep at a distance whatever is callable of causing its ruin, and that from the vi>ry same reasons that establish its right to things necessary lo its pre- servation. Says .Mr Twiss, part I, section 12, of his book on International Law : — The right of self-defence is, accordingly, a primary right of nalions, and it may be exercised, cither by way of resistance in an iinmodiale assault or by way of precaution against threatened aggression. The indefeasible right of every nation to provide for its own defence is classed by Vallel among its perfect rights. And I'hillimore, Fnternalional Law, chapter 10, sections 1 11 and 112 savs The right self-preservation is the lirsl law of nations, as it is of individuals. For international law considers the right of self-preservation as prior and paramount to that of territorial inviolabililv. And says Mr Hall in his Treatise on International Law : — In the last resort almost llic whole of the duties of stales are subordinaled to the right of self-iirolection. Where law alfurds indequate protection to the indi- vidual, he must be permitted, if his e.Nistcnce is in question, to protect himself by whatever means may be nccsssary. There are, however, circunislances falling short of occasions upon which existence is immediately in ([ueslion, in which, through a sort of extension of the idea of self-pi eservalion to include self-proteclion against serious hurts, states are allowed to disregard certain of the ordinary rules of law, in the same maimer as if their existence were iiividved. If a nation is (diliged to preserve itself, it is no less obliged carefully to preserve all its members. The nation owes this to ilself, since the loss even of one of its members weakens il and is injurious to ils iireservation. It owes Ibis also to llie nienibers in particular, in eoiisequeiice of the very act of association ; for those who compose a nation are united for tlieir defenie and common advantage, and none can justly be deprived of this uiiioii and of llic advantages he expeels (o derivi! from it, while be, on his side, fiillils the condilions. The body of a nation cannot, then, abandon a province, a town, or even a siiigli! individual wiio is a part of it, unless compelled to it by necessity, or indispensably oiiliged to il by llie strongest reasons founded on the public safety. It will be seen, therefore, that the right of self-delence is not toniiiied to the mere defence of tlic existence of the nation, as from an enemy that threatens its conquests or its destruction. It extends therefore to every interest of the nation that is worth protecting, lo every individual of tlic nation, lo every part of the nation, and it is a paramount right. Now whore? W'iial is llic limit and where is tiie limit of the place.' Musi the iialion remain ou its soil and stand on the dcrcnsive iiiilil it is allackcd upon ils soil? Why nothing is more fundamenlal, than that the right of — iOii — soU'-dolemo iiuij bccxciicd wlicrosor il is necessary lo excrl il on llic lii},'li soa. (;veii on (Ik; loiTitory of a IVicinily niilioii. Voii may even iiivado the tt'iTitory of a iialion willi wliicli you ai'o al peaco to do an ail wliicli llio jiisl dclenco ol' the fouiilry feally rendei's necessary — so far from tlien; being any ohjcelion lo enforcing!; this riglil upon the liif^h sea, il may lie eni'oreed upon I'oreif^n territory. Says Vallel on this subject, pa};e 1 28, section 28',( — and I I'oad from |)ajie 1 18 ol llie ai'gument : Il is iKjt I'usy Id (lultii'iiiiiii' lo wlial ilislaiici' llic iialiou may I'xlcailits ri^'litsovur llic si'ti liv wliicli il is suri'ciiiiKlod. I believe I read thai yesterday. Ami (llianeellor Kent made the same observation in dilVerenl language. W'l! liav(! cited a numbei' of cases oii this point, and anion}; them the case of (Uiiirrh v. lliililiarl, the decision of the SnprcMiie Court of IIm^ United Stales when Chief .Justice .Marshall prcsitlcr lii'i'aclii'S nl'llii; icvi'iiiii' ami lislii'i y laws, ami, iimlcr iiailiiiilar rir- cuiristani'i's, III casi's nl' cdllisjiiii. In llm tun liisl, llii' Ic^'islalinn is alln;;(;llii'i- irics- (H'clivi' ul' llic thrcr inili; distance;, bcinn Riundcd nn a lulallv iliU'cMcnt iirimiiile, viz the rifflit 111' lliu slalc In lake all riocr-ssary nioasuii's liir Ihe |irip|i.'clion nf ils ti'iri- liiry Jinil lifihls, ami llw iircvcntinn nf any liicach nCils ri-vi-nni' laws. This prin- cipli! was will rxiilainc'd hy .Marshall, C. . I., in llii' I'asc iiS C/iiiii/i v. lliMmi. Now there is Ihe diU'erence, ver\ clearly poinled out hy Ihe. Lord Chief Justice, helween Ihe defensive regulation in ils operation, and llu; stalnlc; ils((lf. The opinion (d' Chief Justice Marshall is also cited as slating the lasv, hy Chancellor Kcnl, hy .Mr W'harlon, and hy .Mr W'hcalon. 'I'lien il was followed l)\ Ihe case (A' Iliii/.ioii \. (iucslirr, in wliiili Ihe (pieslion was as lo Ihe jurisdiction of the l''rencli Court, in the matter of a sci/iire at st!a — whether il could he made beyond the limits of the territorial ju- risdiction, for breach (da municipal r(>gnlali()ii. Thai case wenl up twice, and il went upon a dillerenl stale of fads, Ihal is, a supposed dill'erent stale of fads II went up the first time, and il ap|)eare(l that the seizure was within the territorial 'imits, if I recoiled right. Theii.on a new trial, V 'r proof showed that il was oiilside. Then it came n|i lo Ihe Supreme Coui't of the I'nited Stales a second time, and Iheic il was held, as was held before in the former Case, that the seizure on Ihe high sciis, for bre- ach of a municipal regulation, was valid; thai it was an e.xeiiion of the I'ight of self-defence. Then a pr;vioiis case to Ihal, wliich was an inter- mediate cas(!, I believ(!, after Ihe d(!cisi(m of ('hnrch v. Iliililittvl , and before the decision of lliidstin v. (ii/i'slirr, was /?wc v. linnrh/. in which under a similar law a seizures had been made on lln; high seas, but never consmnmalcd by carrying lln; vessel into port. The (|ueslion was whether Ihal was a justiliable ad of sell-defence, The Court divided on that (jucs- — 20ifi — lion, and llic majority of llic judges held llial it was not justified in the ahsonrc of a judgmeni, of the proper (lourt, in carrying the vessel in; in other svords that the vessel should not be seized without carrying out and continuing that seizure up to the point that would give the parties a chance to he heard on the question of wliether the vessel was violating liie regu- lations in question. One of the judges, Judge Johnson, held that, not- withstanding tiiat, the capture was legal, and he has given an opinion which we have taken the pains to quote, and whicii will be found in l|ie Appendix to the Argument, in \Nhicli he reasons out the conclusion thai liiis act of self-defence did not de|)eud, for its justification, upon bringing in tlie vessel, buttliat the seizure was valid. The remainder of the Court thought otherwise. They did not base it upon the question of tlie validity of the seizure, but tiu^y held that the seizure was never con- summated in the way that international law required ; that the captors had slopped short of the point which was necessary to their justification. The President. — That is a rule of prize jurisdiction of wiiicb you speak. Mr Phelps. — Yes, but, subsequently, in this case of Hudson v. Oites- licv to which ( iiave just alluded. Mr Justice Harlan. — That is in the (ith flranch. Mr Phelps. — Yes, the case nUUuircli v. Iliibharl is in the 2nd Crancb. Unxc v. Ilimchj is in the ith (Iranch, and the final Case of Hudson v. Gueslier is in the 6tli Cranch. Now it is said the case of Hudson y.Questier over-rules the decision o( /io\p V. Himplj/ and there is a line there in the report of liie judgment of Cliief Justice Marshall that says so. it says in terms that the case of /Idsrw //iuu:/i/\A over-rided. Well if so tiien the doctrine of Judge John- son (which goes further tlian it is necessary for us to go herei becomes the law. 1 confess from the report of tiie case ! caruiol see in what par- ticular Hudson V. (iui'stier over-rules Itonv v. Hinwli/, but tiuit is quite foreign to my pur|)ose. I'orliaps il over-rules the dic/u. If it is so why that is carrying ll hul ralher ill-advised, the result ofit was thai Captain Slogden, who commanded Ihe Amei'ican vessel, eajjliu'ed this \ess(d and hronghl her iiilo port. TIk^ (pu'stion came up in a doidtle aspect; lii'st, whetliei- Ihat ship could ho held or oonliscated; secondly, if not, whi^ther Captain Stogdeu was liahle in damages for having made the seizure. II was claimed, on the one side, thai the vessel was open lo condeumalion, thai it had made an assault upon an armeil vessel of the Iniled Stales, and could he condemned as a pri/.e. It was claimed, on the other hand, (hat that was not so. and lliiil really the seizure was so unjuslitiahle hy Captain Slogden, that he was liahle in Ihat respect in damages. It was not a naval vessel of the i'ortnguesc^ (iovernmeut: if I said so, I did not mean so. It was an armed vessel. Now, the supreme Court of Ihe United Stales dismissed hoth those applications. They held, in the (irsl |)lace, Ihat Captain Slogden was within theexereise of his i-ighl of self-defence of lli(> honour of his (lovern- menl. lie was not placed in any danger. His vessel was the superior I'oi-ce. He did not require to defend himself or his ship, iind, it' he did, i( was not necessary lo ea|)tur'e (he oilier ship. Iliil tlicCouit put il upon (he ground (hat an ofdcer of thi! .Navy of Ihe I'nitcd Slates had a right lo protect even the honour of his (lag against heiiig assaulted and (iredupon, and thought, therefore, under the cinumslances. he was right in capturing the vessel; and he was not responsihle in damages. They held, on the other hand, that in view of what the mischief really was on the part of the foreign vessel, upon an examinalion of the fads, iiol as they appeared lo Ca|)tain Slogden. hut as (hey acdially took place, the vessel could nol he condemned and the vessel was dis- charged. It is a most instructive case, hecausc; the o|)iiiion ol Mr .lustice Slory, like all his opinions, was very able, and had the concurrence of the whole (ioiirt. It is a very insti'iiclive case as illustrating what may be done in the way of sell'-del'eiic(! of a nation on Ihe high seas against the vessel of another nation. — 2(H!t — Tliui'c was no inlorosl lliero involved in iiny pecuniary sense; llierevMis no (lanjAor, and ('(M'lainly no war al liio limo; il was a lime of peace. 11' liiere had Imhmi a waril woidd liav(^ hecn a very simple case. Tlio case ol' llie schooner IhOsey in Mason's llcporls, paj^e ■'{.'il is a de- cision i)y Mr .Inslice Slory silliii}; hy iiiniself in Ihc circuit and Itistrict Court over wliich he |ii'esi(h'd, and which did not fio fui'lher. I will have the reference found prescjiilly, and will pass on to the novl. On pa^e 1 18 of the American .\rj;iimenl in the notes and, in the first place in the text is a cilaliou from the (irst of Kent's Commeutaries; paj^eiJI : ,\iul sliili's may exuiciso a inoro (|ualilied jarisdicdiin over llio seas near tlioir (■nasi lor iiicirc lliaii lliu llircc (oi' liv(;) iiiili' liniil for llscal anil di'l'iMisive |iiii'iios(.'s. Itiilli (ileal lliitaiii ami llii; IJiiiliul Sliilcs have iiiolilijilud llii^ liaiis-sliipmciit williia I'uur l('af;iirs ui' llirir ciiast of riiri%'n j;oiMls wiliidiil paymciil ol' dalliis. That illiislrah's what I was saying this morning as the right of a stale lo extend its jurisdiction heyond this three mile limit. Thai I propose lo refer lo pres(!nlly for special purposes. .\nd llieii in [\w notes you lind se- veral cilalioiis on thai poinl. .Mr Twisssa^s in his volumeof Inlernational liaws : I'lolhiT, if IIm' IVi'c and ciinimnn nsi' ol' a IhiiiH' wiiicli is incapabli' nl' being ii|i- propiiaU'd wi'if liKcly In be pii'jndiclal nr {lanficmiis to a nalion, l\u\ carcolils own sali'ly wonld anibori/.c il lo rcdnciilbal lliiiif; nndi'r ils cxclnsivc I'lnpin' ilpossiblc, in Older lo icstrict Ibe use ol' il on tliu pari oliilbcrs by sueb [ireeanlions as prn- denue migiil diclale. .Now that Knglisli aiilhor has applied this rule lotlie ver\ case that we have in hand, where IIk; free and common use of a thing which is inca- pahle of heiiig approprialed — if you carrv that idea so far — was likely I. be prejudicial or disastrous lo a nation, it would have a right to relain il under ils exclusive empire. W'ildman, on the same point says : Till' sea witbin i;ililsbiil of llie >lioi'e is occupied liy ll'i; occnpalion of Ibe euasl. beyond Ibis liniil iiiariliine slates bavi; rl;uined a lif^lil of visilalion and ini(nii'y williiii lliose [larls ol' llie ocean adjninini.' lo llieii' shores, wbieli the common coiu'- lesy of naliniis had bii' Iheir eonmion I'onveiiienee allowed to bo eonsideri'd as (larls of their dominions foi' various ilomeslie purposes, anil parlieularly for liscal and dob'iisive rejiiilalioiis more immeilialely alVeiiini; Ihcir safety and welfare. ■And Creasy, on International Law, remarks Stales may exen-ise a ipuililied jnrisdielion over Ibe seas near their coasts for more than the Ibrei,' lor llvel miles liiiiil. Uiv liseal and dcd'eiisivo purposes, that is, for the purpose of enl'oreeiiK'nt of their reveiinc laws, and in order to prevent fnreigii armed vessels from boverinj; on their coasts in a menaeiui; ;ind annoyiiifj manner. .And llalleek says, in his book on International Law, The Ibrec-mile boll is the sulijpcl of lerrilorial jurisdiction, " lOven beyond this limit states may exorcise a qualiliod jnrisdielion for fiscal and defensive pui'iioses. — '2o;i() — Then i-cl'i*rnn^ii};iiiii to llit> lanf;utigi! s foi' tlii' vinlalioii iiriii'iilralily ami Hh' so-called ' iiDVi'iliif.' arts ' and ails ridalln>; to llic (•uslniiis. Tims, llii' rnii'lfjii I'lillsliiii'iil ail |3II and ,"it Vir. ('.. !M)i wliioli liiiposrs pi'iiallii's I'di' various ai'ls iloiii' in vlolalimi ol' iiiMilial ol)li(;atiiiiis, smnr of wliirli arc a|>|ilii'alili' III I'oi'ci^-iici's as well as lo Itritish siilijecls, is cxtciidcil in S. -1 In nil lliu diiiainioii!! (d' Her Majesty. ' iiiriudiii^' Ihc adjneeiil leiiilurial waleis '. In till* A|)|it>n(iix lo this ni'^umenl. on pa^^e IK3, wu iiavc taken llic pains lo hrin;; lo^etiier a nnnil)ci' of citations from I'.onlinenlnl Courts. What wo have cited hefore lias l)ecn from Knfjhsh or American anlhori- ties, either judicial or writers of distinction. Savs A/.iini : — Kvery iialioii may apinoiiriale lliin}:s, llie use nf wliicli. if lel'l IVec and ciuniiion, Would he gieally lo its prejudice. This is amdlicr reason why niarilirne |iowers may exicnd I heir domain along the sea loasl, as lar as it is possihle, to derund liicir rights... II is essential |i ilieir security and Ihc welfaro of their domi- nions Then IMoccjuc, after discussing the limits of the territorial sea, and pointing out the great divergence of opinion thai lias existed on the point, says : Moreover, in cusloni-housc matters, a nalion can llx at will thi! point whore its terrilorial sua ceases; the ncl}.ddioMriiig nations are siip|iiiseil to lie acquainted with these re^'iilations, and are consei|uently , oldi^'cd to conform thereto. As an example, we will content ourselves with ipiotin^' the law of Cerminal llh, year If, Art. 7. Tit. 'J ; ' ("aptains and ofliceis and other functionairies directirif; the custom- house, or the commercial or naval service, may search all vessels of less than 1(10 Ions hurden when lying al anchor or lacking within four leagues from the coast of Trance, cases of /w's hk//";' excepted. If such vessels have on hoard any goods whose impoitation or exportation is prohihited in I'rance. the vessels shall he conliscaled as well as their cargoes, and the captains of the vessels shall he required lo pay a lino of -iOd livres '. Tiiere is an example of a statute operating Icrritorialiy outside the ordinary three miles, about three times as far. Says Piailier-l"oderi5 {Trail6 ile Droit international, Vol. II. sect. ti;i;Vi : liidppoiulently of lipalics. Ilie law cif each Stale can it cle inline of its own accnnl a rer- luiii dislanre on ttiu sea. tvilliin wliirti tlic slalc can claim jiirisdii'lion. ami wtiicli consli- Inlcs llio Icnilorial sea, for il and for those wliu admit llie tliiiilation. Tins is especially for the snrveiltaiue and control of revenues. And ill a nule to this [lassage he says : It elTecl, in llie matter of reveniii', a luition can tix its own liniils, iiotwillistaiuling Hie terminalion of Itie Icrritoiial sea. Ncigliboiiiiw nations are tield lo lei-iiuiiize Uie.se rules, and in consequenci; are considered to conform lo tliem. On Itiis point the l''renili law of llie nil (lerniinal, year II, can lie eiled. This law tixes two myriamcters, or ahout twelve English miles as the limit williin which vessels are siihject lo inspection to prevent fraud on the levenue. l,a Tour (De la mer loriitoriale, page i.'KI), speaking of the exterritorial elloct of the French revenue laws al four leagues from the coast, thus justilies them. — -in;. I — U liul tlii:* iiri I'xi'i'Ssivc limit Id nlilrli Ici I'xttiiiil tlio lurriliitial sei\ I Nd.ui' iistcrl. At till' incx-iil il.iy llii^ iiiiPslidii will linrilly licm iliscusisiori, on iiridinil iit llio Idiiu run^e oT I'aiiiioii; unil llimi^tli uo nlniiild ri'liiiii to tlio tiiiii' ulioii lliat laiif^u wus less, wn slmiild slill iiiidcrtaki' III jnstirv tills I'XIi'iiHioii dl'llii' ciislciiii-liiiiise lailiiiH; unci I'lir tliJA it in siil- llciGiit Id IiivoIm' llir ifMsdiis ^ivc'ii in mailer.') df siiiiilarv |idlii'i), It ilocn nut involve simpiv a ri'cijiiDi'al cdiii'i'ssion uf slates, or a titilt ugiceinont livtwi'en lln'iii, lint it is Hip cxi'ii'ise dl' llii'ii'ci'S|iPi'livi' riylils... Till' Aini'iirun unil Kiif^lisli pratlce alldws the sfi/.nri>, rvni unlsiili' nT lliii onlinaiy limit of llii' loirildiiu! wati'is, of vossrls violalin;,' llio I'listdiii la«s. Savs M. Calvo [\,i' .Irnil 'Pilcriiitliiiiial, src. :!(i| ; In di'iliM' Iddfciili' llii' i|iii'!illaiii'i' over llic lionli'riiiK spa »illiiii llii' liiiiils wliirli lis scv'iirily. its lrani|iiillily, ami its wcallli rlcinand, . . . Iluiclii ami iilliiM' aiitliorilirs |iliiri' llio line at I'lll niilcs I'roiii Ilic slum', tiiy|iliiarjili'r and I'acnini/, at 100. I.iii'i'iinius, al a puinl frnni hIiIcIi a slii|i can sail in luo clavs. llynUrrslirvk niaiii- lains thai tlic li'iiilorial si'a extends as I'ar as tin' |i>i»er orarllllery. This limit is reKarded ns tliec'urrei'l one, mil liecanse il is fnuiKlcd on foiee, hut liecanse it is llin limit neicssaiy fur llie sal'i'ly of Hie stall'. One olliiT ('iisi> I will rile ii|ioii lliis poiiil, iiiitl lliiil is llii> (',nsi> ol' Mmiilifsti'i- s. M(iss(iihiissrllK\'\\\ llio \'M\\ rnilotl Sl(il(!s Sii|ii'oiiH' Cmirl He|toi'l, and llie law on liiis siihjecl ,is so siroiifjiv sltilcd li\ .Mr C.lioulo ill lliiil ciisc, ill his ai'};iiiiii'iil. Iliiil we liiivc cilt'il his laii^Miap; as well as Mil' u|iiiiioii ol' Mill (loiirl which siislaiiUMi his ci)iili>iilii>ii. [I is pa^c l.'il III' llii' ar^iiiiiuiil anil lliu reporl is al \)\v^ti 2111 of llii; l^t'.Uh Sii|)i'(>mu C.uiiii Heporls. Willioiil tlieso limits were tlio " lii>.'h seas ", the cnmninn prnpiM'tv oC all na- tions. OviT tlii'si' Kniilancl, as one ol' tlio cinnmnii sovcreifjris of IliiMicoaiiJiail rer- laiii ri;;lits iil' jurisdiclimi and diiiniiiinii (liMivod Irniii and sanctinni'd h\ tlio aurci'- liiciit III naliiins cxpri'ssed or ini|ili(Ml. Snclijuiisdictiiiii and doniiniuii sli had I'or all piirpusos ol '^ii'ir-di'l'iMico, and lor llio ri>)(iilalion of coast llsliorii's. Ww exonisn of siicli rij^lits over adjacent walcr.s would not necessarily he liiui- li'd III a .'l-inile licll, hut would uiidniihti'dly he sanclionud as far as rcasnnalily necessary Insecure the praclical heuellls of their possession. If self-deh'iice or ri't-'iiiatinn of lislieries slmuhl reasnnahly reipiiie assuniplion of control to a ;ii'ealer distance llian A miles, il would undnuhtedly hi' acipiiesceil in hy other nations. The iiiiiriiii' Icnijui' dislaiici,' has acipiircd promiui'iice merely ln'Cause of its adoptiiin as a hoiuidary in cerlalii a^iceineiits and treaties, ami from its frnipient menlinn in texthooUs, liul has ru'ver liceii estahlislieil in law as a lixod hoiimlary. These rifthls hclon}.''ed to I'jigland as a memher of the family of nations, and did iM)t constitute her the possessor ol a proprielary title in any pari nf the liifjh seas nor adil any portion of Iheso waters to her realm, inlheir nature Ihey were rights of dominion ami sovereignty rather than of property. .\iiil I I'iiii liai'dly I'oiii'oivo Ihal Ihc Iriio doctrine on this suhjci'l ronld be bcller expressed than in the lanftnap- I have read : Mr Justice Ulatcliford, in delivering the opini'tn of the cimrl, says: " We think il iiuist be reg' rded as eslahlished that, as hetwceu nations, the minimum limit of tin: territorial 'irisdiction of a nation over tide-walers is a marine league from its coast; that ha wholly within its territory, not exceeding two marine leagues in wiillh al the iiitli, are within this limit; ami that incliidcd in this territorial jiirisdii tion i^ e right of coiilrol over lishories, whether the lish he migratory, free-swimmiiij. sh, or free-moving lish, or lish attached to or emhedded in the soil, file opi'i ...-a within this limit is, of course, subject to (he common right of navigation, ami dgoverments, for the purpose of self protection in time of war or for the prcveni m of frauds on its revenue, exercise an authority beyond these limits. Now, Sir, by these various authorities, at the risk of being tedious ujion a point that, if it had not been controverted, on llie other side, I should have thought was elementary, I have endeavored to sustain the |irii|H)sili(iii lliiil I liiivc ii(lvaii('(<(l lliis iiinrniii}; niul lliis artiM'tinon in rus- |M Innu (lilVi'i-iMil llicni'ics, |i('rliii|is, ii|)|ilii'iil)l(> lu dill'iTiMil iiisch, iirisiii^ Milder llic saiiio nilc, in \sliirli llii' >|{i(iili>s or ri>^iiliilii>iis, or aclioiis, \Nillii)ii( slaliiirs or I't'^iilalioris, ofa nalioii in ils own (li-rciui' do lake t'lrccl, and aro rccof^ni/cd, \)\ llii> cslaljistii'd |iiiiici|ilcs ul' iiilcina- lional law as t'll'i'diial oiilsidi! of aiis arliiirarv lint* of tlirin; mi''; dislanrt; or c-aiinon shot. Tlicy show thai, in lli(> lirsl placo, for ail purposes of sclf-dcl'onio — dci'cncc of n-vcmic, dclVncc (d" lishcr\, of indiisli'irs and nvcrNlliiiin llial is worlli di'lViicc, llic idl'iM'l (d'lliL'so slaliitcs f;oes out hcyond aii\ aildlrarj line, f;oi's sull IVoiii the invostifration ol' the autlmritius wliich liavo hccii referred to appear lo me Id lie lliuse :;TIip conscnsiisof civilized indcpendoiil stales lias iccogui/.eil a iiiariliino oxtensinii of froiiliei' lo llir distance of three iiiiios from low water mark, hecaiise such a frontier or liidt of water is necessary for the deleiieo and socnrilv of the adjacciil slate. That is what it stands on. It is forllu! altainment of those particular objects thai a dominion has been jj:ran- Icd over these portions of llie liifrli seas. This proposition is materially did'creni .10111 llie [iroi .isilion conlcnied for. vi/. : that it is eompelent lo a stale to exercise within Ihcsi^ waters the same ri;;lils of jurisdiction and property wliieli appertain lo it in resjieel to ils lands and its ports. There is one obvious test by which Ihe two sovereifiuties may be dislingiiished. According,' lo modern iiilernalional law it is cerlainly a right iiuidenl to each state to refuse a passage to foreigners over ils lenitory by laud, whether in time of peace or war. Hnl it does iiol aiipeur lo haveihe same riglil with respcel to preveu- ling the passage of foreign ships over this porliou of Ihe high seas. In Ihe foi'mer case lb !re is uii Jus Iniiisilint; in the lalter cast^ there is. The reason of Ihe thing is thai llie ilel'eiice and secnrily of the stale does not re- quire or warrant the exclusion of peaceable foreign vessels from passing over these waters, and the custom and usage of ualioiis has not sanclion >d it. Now is there any atilhor that I know of, that has ever claimed any such right of a niilion of jurisdiction over the three mile limit itself. The President. — Would not it be perhaps that it would be more against the righi of the comity of nations than against the right of Ihe sovereign nation, as :i mailer of theory? Mr Phelps. — With much deference \ou will find it lo be put in all these case^ by the Kngiish, .\uieriean and Contiiienlid publicists, upon the gro'.Mid of ri(//il. That is used over and over again — il is a part of the right of the nation. The Ihi'ee mile line is a measure of defence. So long as defence can be ade(|uatel\ and sufliciently conducted within il, there is no apology for a nation going oulside it. The necessity fails. \\ hen necessity passes Hie limit the right of defence is extensive with it, and goes as far as it does. Now, appUing this jirinciple for Ihe iiionu'iil, I propose, on the next occasion — I should mil have linn- lo enter upon il lo-day inlelligcnih - to show lh(! exieiil lo '.\iiicli Iliis liglil (if dcl'i'uce ma) be exercised upon the sea — all Ihe 'udhorilies that I have cited thus far refer lo tlie.vc^/ — what mav be done outside of the three mile, or " cannon-shot " las it — '2n;ifi — is iiKliffereiilly staled', line. I sluvli purpose lo shew that the same right extends and is exercised and is justified and lias been sustained by emi- nent statesmen and diplomatists — not only asserted on the one side but conceded on the other, even to go into the opposite territory if it is neces- sary as I submit it can only rarely be : It must be an extreme case, 1 am sure thai Ji/s/i/ies a nation — that is to say, that makes it necessary for a nation, in lime of peace, to trespass on lo the territory of another nation in order for the nation to exert its right of self-defence — a case of rare occurrence — and yet a case that does occur, and when it occurs it lias been universally recognized; and I do not think that anybody has over questioned it — that the right to go on lo that territory still exists. It has been exerted by various nations, it has been exerted by Great Britain, liy the tJnited States, [both in various instances — it has been exerted by tlie one against the other, and by both against other nations; and the only question that could be raised in any of these cases would be upon the facts of the parlicidar case, but it has nothing to do with the rit//i/, Ihc vi(jhl is always conceded. The dispute arises in respect of the particular necessity, and that, of course, is alwajsa grave question, hut when you have estajjlisiied the nec(;ssity — wiien it is necessary for Great Britain lo enter liie territory of the United Slates to exert its just and pro- per right of self defence in lime of peace, then it has not been denied by ciliier nation, and it cannot be denied, that the right exists; and I shall propose when I iiave the lionour to address you further, to point out in- stances of a larger and wider nature so as to shew that liiere is absolutely no limit to the thing which may be defended — the properly right — the indiislry — the possession; and there is no limit to I he place where it may be exerted, and liierc is no limit lo liie manner in which it may be exerted, subject all tlie time to the |iriiiiary question llial what is under- taken to be (lone is necessary to bo done, and, the way in which it is underlaken lo be done is necessary, reasonable, and just. The President. — The Tribunal will adjourn to Monday next at half past 1 1 instead of to-morrow . jThe Tribunal adjourned accordingly lo Monday the 3rd .luly 181)3, at 11. 3U a. m.l FORTY-EIGHTH DAY. JULY 3"" 1803. Mr Phelps. — In order, Sir, to recall llio line of argument that I was pursuing before it was inlorruplod by Hie recess of tbo Tribunal, I may pciiiaps in a very few words recapitulate williout repeating Hie proposi- tions 1 had endeavoured to support, selling out with Hie proposition that it was for those who claimed the rigiit to inllict upon the United States, not to say the world, tiie injury which \vc claim results from (liis business of pelagic sealing, tliut it was for lliem to establish its justilica- tion; that in support of Hie attempted justilicalion Hiey had rested tlicir argument on two principal propositions; tirsi, that tliese animals are fene iialunc in the legal sense of Hiat term and, tlierofore, open to pur- suit in any place wheie the pursuer has a right lo be; and, in the next place, tliat the sea is free, and that a pursuit of tiiis sort is incint gained by such a decision as that? It will he seen upon a nionienl's I'etlection. Hut, as 1 siiiil. they are not wilhout their impor- tance. In Ihe lirsl place, they ari> propounded in the Treaty, anil a specitic answer is I'cquesled, a re(pi(!st that it will be, of course, the desire of the Tribunal to comply with, if they lind themselves able to determine the quesiions. Lord Hannen. — It is more Mian a (pieslion. It is reipiired. Mr Phelps. — I think llial is correct, my Lord. I used the word in the seiist' that 1 supposed all llial wiis desired of this Tribunal — Ihe sense in which it iniisl be considered — allhoiigh Ihe recpiesi comes from a nation it is but a re(]ucst, at any rale, to those niemb(>rs of Ihe Trihiinnl who owe no allegiance or no service to either of the coiilending nations — ordinary diplomatic courtesy would require that the invitation lo decide these questions addressed lo eminent genllemeii not belonging to eilher of the two cinilentling countries \\(nilil be put in the Ibriii of a reipiest. Lord Hannen. — I was only referring lo the words of the Treaty — " shall ". It is dill'erence between " ma\ " ;iiid " niiisl ". If voii discharge your dulies voii must answer these questions. Mr Phelps. — I am quite uwarc of that my Lord, and in using the SOO — 'iOtiO — word " roqiiosl " I iisoil il in llio sonso your Lor(Islii|) pivos, wliiil nndor nllici' riiM'miislaiicos niifi;lil liiivo Ixm'ii ciilli'd " I'l'miircs. " 'I'licy imisl l)(' iiiiswonnl, and iiol (inly tlml. Iiiil wln'llicr lliry arc Id lie aiiswiM-cd or iiol spocificnlly cvm il'llii' Ti'ilti' lal can runsli'iir litis 'I't'cals l declined hotli those pro- positions. W'e do nol claim, as you have lonj? since perceived, to shut up liohriuf;' Sea. \\'t> do not claim that linssia ever claimed Hie rijjhl lo shut up IJeiiring Sea; neverllicless, Sir, in respect lo what llussia did claim, I shall, hriully I hop(\ invite vour allenlion Ihis morning', hecanse I am ahle lo avail myself of what has been read and whal has iiecn said on holli sides before, and, Iherci'ore, will ht^ abh^ lo relieve; you of much reading anil rcrercuces which woiMd be necessary if I were now inlro- diu'inf; these topics for Ihe first lime lo your nolice. There is no human rif;lil of prnperl\ Ihal I know oi, I resperll'nlly siif;{;esl, direcl or indirecl, — Ihere is no rijihl of propcirly which is not inlluenced, controlled and nllimalely delermined by what is called pn's- criplion, occn|)ation and Ihe lliiihl of lime. How far Unit applies between nalions \ shall consider presently. I stale now the j;eneral principles of municipal law, and a principle which finds its analof;y, as far as il is pos- sible lo find il in iiilcrnalioual law. 'riiere is no title Ihal is nol ulti- mately deleriiilned ; Ihere is no title thai is not inlluenced and atl'ected by the llijj,ht of tinn^ coupled with occiijiation and possession — not one. It lias been beautifully said by a coimlryman of my learned friend the .Mlorney (Icneral, whose countrymen have said so nuuiy beanlifnl lliin^s, that in a |)olic\ of Ihc law Ihe hoiir-i;lass which Time is represented as holdiiii; in his left hand lakes the place of Ihe memo- ri;ils and Ihe evidence that Ihe scythe which In; carries in his rif;lil sweeps away. It is a lii;iiralive, still il is an exact statement in my ap- prehension of Ihe foundation and the result of this policy of Ihe law ; and, therefore, although we do not in this instance - we have expressly dis- claimed reposing Ihe litle of the United States and its fonndalion on the former occu|)ation and claims ol linssia — allhouj;h we have preferred lo rest Ihem upon the stronger, the more eijnilable, Ihe cleai'er grounds thai, as il seems to ns, they do depend upon in their own right, and nol in any derivative right, il is nevertheless Irne thai Ihe position Ihat they take derives Ihe strongest corroboration, conlirmalion and snpporl from the previous history of this snbjecl and Ihe occnpalion of this property and Ibis industry by our predecessor whose title we have derived. That is the place that, in our eslimation, these (ineslious la\r ; Ihal is Ihe pur- — iidtil — pose rorwliicli a docisioii ot'lhoiii was dosiriMl — rfqiiircd, il' yon please — from lliis 'IVihimal, and tluMinly iinrposc. Now I nci'il not say llial, in roniplclinf; llic slali'Mient ol'lliis f^cnoral principle, wlial all lawyers nndci'shmd, thai wliih; IlieeUVcl of prosn-ip- tion, of possession, of occiipalion is in dne lime lo eonlirm lilies, — i mean lo crcale lilies — ripen into lilies, so llial llie ^rcalei' purl of llie |tropi'i-|y oflliis world lo-diiy nndoid)l('dly reposes in ils larl I'esort npon llial principle — while I say ils ullinnile elleel is lo crcale lilies and ripen inlo lilies, yel llie possession sliorl of llial, if il lias hceii of any considcralile dni'alioii, if il has heeii niidcr llic proper circnmslanees and Iho prop;'!' elaim, is ref;arded in all C.onrls of .lusliee as slrenjijlhenin}; — as eonlirniinf; lilies. We have llie familiar principle of Couiis of JMpiily in respecl lo llic operalion oflimc! shorl of any Slalnli; of Limilalions, shorl of any ahsolnle |)rescriplioii which makes a lille — Ihe passajji! of lime, Ihe ac(pliesciencl^ Ihe omission lo asserl claims — all Ihal sorl of Ihiiiftisa very familiar doctrine and coiisliinlly in Ihe discrelion of Ihe (".onri, or |)erliaps I should more eorreclly say as Inrniii};- Ihe scale upon donhlfnl (pn^slions of I'acl — il is decisive. Many a ease which, upon Ihe elemenls of ils precise r\^U\ as helween Ihe parlies as ilslands, nii^lil he (ineslionable and donhlfnl, is set al rest hy llie consideration of Ihe passajte of time lo have heeii loiij;- enough not lo form an ahsolnic! legal bar, hilt lo cliara<'teri/.c, lo inlhieiice, the claim lo such an extent as to Inrn the scale. Now as lo these qneslioiis lliere are lonr in the Treaty which 1 shall n^l'er lo briefly. The lirst is : — Wlial cxchisivc jiii-is(li('li(iii in tlie sci imw known ;is IIk; Itclirinji's Sea, ami wlial ('xchisiv(; rij/lils in Iho soal llslicrics llicri'lii, iliil Itnssia asscil anil cxoicisi' irAiir and iiii In lliu time of Ihe cession nC Alaslia to tlic United Slates? ;\ow I need not say, in Ihe lirsl plact^ that the only sense and pnrporl of that ([neslion in ils place on this siihjcM't is in refereiu't! to the seal lisliery. Il appears the (piestioii is not made a (pieslion Insre of the right of exclusive Jiirisdiclion over Ihe sea, bill Ihe main purport of the (pieslion is, wli.il exclusive rijihts in the seal lisliery did Itnssia asserl and exercise, and that will be made plain enongli by supposing for Ihe niomcnl il was held Ihal linssia did ikiI assume for lierelf an cxchisivc right over Ihe seal lisliery, Init did iissiM't c(^rhiiii exclusive righls in the sea, not com|)relicndiiig Uk; lisliery, it would be manifest that that would have no avail al all npon the deterniinalion of this case, and on llic other hand, pnt Ihe snpposilion the oilier way — suppose il is found by the Tribunal, as it seems lo me it must be found, that exclusive rights to lliis seal lisliery were asserted and maintained from the original oi'cupalion of the Islands down lo llie ('cssioii to the United Sti- les in IH('>7, then of what conse(pieiice does il become to the decision of this case, what rights llussia did or did not assert as lo the whale lisliery, or to any other interest or right in Ihe Itehring Sea? II is plain, llicrefore, that this (piestion is lo be read nnder Ihe coiitenlioii of lliis cu-i! — ill as imicli iis llicre is no coiiloiilioii ol' llii! rifj;lit of ititire c/uHsinii, wliiil exclusive rifjlil in llic sciil lisliory did lliissia iisscit and liMM'cisu down In Iliis lime, and il is only in llial connexiou Dial I consider il. The President. — I Ixdiove what you liavi! jusi staled is (jiiile roii- lirnied l»y liie leading,' jdirase of Arliilc Vi : " In deciding;- llie mailers snhniiMed lo llie Ailiilralors", we ai'e nol to cousli'ue llie live following qiicslioiis in any oilier purporl llian llial wiiicli is a mailer siilnnilled lo us. Mr Phelps. — Thai is a very peiliiienl su},'f,'cstion, Sir, and il makes clear wlial I was coiilendiii(:: i'or, llial lliese (incslions an; snhmilled lo llie Arhilrators only for llie imrpose of delerniiniiifj; llie qiieslions in lliis case. Now (jueslion 2 is in oilier words Ihis queslion. How far weru the claiius oi'ilussia allccUHl hy llio Trealius of JS'.'i ami I.S'2,'i.' Thai is Ihe second (|iioslion, h(>caiisc Ureal Ifrilain and Hie I'liiled Stales recognized llie ehiiins of Unssiajusl as far as lliey were iiidudi'd in llial Tnsaly, and no fiirllier. .Inst so far as Hie original claims of {{nssia wen! lakcn hack diminished, niodilied, altered hy Ihe Treaties of KS2'i and I82.'j, so far those countries declined to recogni/e what liussia had previously asserted. .Iiisl so fur, on the other hand as hy the provisions of those Treaties the original pretensions of hussia were left undislurhed, just so far hotli those connlries recognized and acceded lo il. .N'olhiiig can he plainer than that. So that the aeliial reading of (Jueslion IS" 2 is what 1 have slated. — how far were the original claims of lUissia in res- peel to these seal tisheries withdrawn or modilied hy the Treaties of 182i and 182.")? .Inst so far as, I re|ieat, the couiitri(!s refused to recognize them Ix^yond that Ihev specilically acipiiesccd in tiiem, in making the ba- sis of the Treaty. Then the lliird (|nestioii — and I go through with these in order lo poinl clearly what I desire; lo say that all Ihese four qiieslions rcsolvt; llieniselves into a very simjile eiwpiiry, as far as the purpose of this case is concerned, which is, wliethi'r llie hody of water now known as Hehring Sea was included in the phrase " I'acilic ((ceaii " as used in the Treaty of I82"j. Thai is llie same question thai I just stated over again exactly in a dill'erenl form and having reference to some of the actual conlentioiis in the negotiation, Ouestion 3 stales over again (jueslion 2. How far wore the pretensionsof Itnssia withdrawn, niodilied, and how far were they acceded to ? (tne imporlanl empiiry on that, and perhaps the controlling eiKiuiry on thai, pulling il in other words, and coming to the actual terms of the negoliiition — was Hehring Sea included or was il nol? If il was included, then il is not to be argued that Itussia's origi- nal pretensions were more or less considerahly modilied. If it was not included, then il is [ilaiii that any original assertion of liussia on the suh- jccl of this seal fishery never was aU'eeled at all h\ unylliing that look — -jdti:! — |)la(-(> l)ul\vcen tliu cuuiilries. and I lespuillully siihinil llial llial coiiLliisioa will Im! foiiiiil lo liu iii(i\ llio pill! of any nation of any ri^ilil in llclM'iii^ Sea, (iowii In the l'l\as(> (if IK2I llic possossion of lliissia had hccn aitsolnlciy nniii'dkcn ; a jiDSScssion nndcr a riaini of fxrlnsivi' riniil, a possession I'td'oi-ccd liy ils laws, ils (iovernnitMil, ils aniliorily ; a possession in wliicli noliody in lliu world nndcrlook to inlcrlVre, Now, llio rase is vciv plain till yon conn- down to tlit- I'kaso of 18:21, because llicie is no eonllictin};; evidence. Then llie I'kase ol' IH2I was pid loi'lli, wincli was ill-advistid in ils plii'ase(do};y lieyond ({neslion. Tln^ Kmperor was made lo assert what he did not mean lo ass(>rl, and it is Ih'- yond qiieslion thai the doiiiinent in ils lethal and iicliial (>ll'i>('l, when it wasa|)|)lied to the re};ion to wliieh il had refei'enee, did liav(? an ell'eel whieh was iniieh beyond whal il was either the necessity of lliissia or ils iidenlion to assert. Thai bronchi up a remonstrance t'roin both comdries, and thai remonstrance resnlhui in a lu'^oliatiou in wliiidi the sid)jecl gra- dually fji'cw less and less clear, as is verv apt to be the case in diploma- tic, correspondence. What seems lo ns, in the li^hl in which we look back n|)on Ibis, as a pretty simple proposition, ^ridnally became moi'e and more obscure as these formal Idlers passed between the parties; but, al last, we have an exit out of all this, because the |)arlics idtimalely came lof;elher, and, as il seems to me, if two inlellifieiil men had sal down on two sides of a table wilhoul ;in\ I'ormal l(>llers and dealt with Ibis subject, lh(>\ would have -ome to a couclnsion very readily in Ihe onlsel, and have come lo a coiichisiou thai was siilisraclory lo Ihe tbi'ee parlies, and has remained undisturbed ever since wilhoul any (pieslion thai we hear ol' between either ol'these Ihi'ce nations and Ihe other down lo ihe lime when Ibis pelaj;ic sealing; is bcjiuu by Ihe Canadians. The solllemenl of the ujaller thai is found iu those Treaties was. tlierefore, not oidy satisfactory then, but il has remained salisfactoi'y ever since iill il isi)i'ouj^hl into consideration in Ibis preseul connection. 1 need not detain you by referring, lo those passafics, which hav(! alreaily been read, illnslralini; whal I have said aboid the claims of Itus- sia. Von will renuMuber Ihe terms of the I'kase of IT'.l'.t, under which Ibis lUissian .\mericau Company was chartered. Perhaps a few woi'ds will illustrate belter than whal I cau say and perhaps recall to your minds what I mean. The lirsl, second, third, fourth and tenth Articles in Ihe Charter of 17'.l',l, which will be found in Ihe tirsl volume of [hv .American Appendix, jtages ii and I."!, are those lo which I refer; and il will i)e seen by reading them Ihal llie right asseiled by Hnssia then, in the origin of Ibis business, to Ibis industry and loall industries lliore, was an exclu- sive right, and that in the strongest terms Ihe right was convciyed to this Hnssian .American Company lo the exclusion of all others, ami very largo and siringeut powers wei'c conferred upon lliem for Ihe purpose (d'emi- bling them to maiulaiii this lighl. The language of this I'kase has like- wise become familiar to the Tribunal. In 1821 the exclusive claim is there re-asscrled, and il is in terms said that the lUissian .Amei'ican — 'jnii.'i — r.oinimny linvc llicso imliislrios, or o|i|)nilmiilii'S!iii(l fiioililics oflinnliii}; iiinl lisliin^. iiiid wliiil iiol, Id lliir cNchisiofi urall oIImm's. So llial lliiTi! ciiiiniil l)(< ii(|iii>sli(iii lliiil ilitwn Id MMil iiicliidin^ llii> likiiscol' IN2I in llic lirst |ilii('(' ilii- iij;lil ii«.-.cili'il wiis nil rxi'lii'^ivi' i'inlil; in Hx! snrond pliico, llial ri^lil Wits iii'ilhci' (•liiillcii^i'ii ikh' inltirtH'orcd willi \\) anybody in liiii wui'id. rillicr naliiin nr individual. Senator Morgan. — As I icnicinber liio lan{,'nnj;o of (ho llkusc ol' I7'.VJ il s|toaks of llioso rij;hls cvisliii); in llic norlli-Ciisl seas. Lord Hannen. — No, il says nolliin^' of " seas ". Sir Charles Russell. -- " .Noilli isisl coast ", llio lan}{naf,'i! is. Mr Justice Harlan. — W iial Scnahtr Morj^an rolVrs lo is (lin pro- aniiili llif lii'sl part of liial Ijkaso. II says " North (iasi Sea" .Inst read il and sec il'it(h(fs not say so. Mr Phelps. — li ilocs. Senator Morgan. — (If conrsc il dons. Mr Phelps. — And I was ^oin^- to refer lo that a little later and in aiiollii'i' ((iniu'clion when we eonie to consider what is the norlh-west coasl. Lord Hannen. — I have marked the operative words and I can lind nolhiii;; iihont liie sea al ail. Sir Charles Russell. — The word seas is menlioned in the preamhle, hut not in I he operative words of the grant. Mr Phelps. — To llio lliissian .Xnicricaii (".ompaiiy uiiilcrour liighesl prokHlion. Tin- bcnofUs mil! iiilvaiitaf;(!s rcsulliiig lo inir Kiiipiii' I'loiii llic I.MiiliiiiraiKl tiailiiiiicairicd (in by our liival siilijccls in llii! niulli-caslci'n seas. Lord Hannen — And alonj;- the coasts of " America "; and then it proposes lo make certain enaclments, which do not say anythinfi; about the seas. Mr Phelps. — Have alliaclcd mii' iiiipciial alli'iilinii ami i'onsi(lcialiiin;lli('i'i'l'iin\ lmvin{i: taken luiilcr our iiiii Hale |irolccliiiii a Coiiipaiiv oi^raniscd for (lie aliovn-nainod pur- pose, — Senator Morgan. — NVhal pnrpose.' Mr Phelps. — or canyin^' on luinlin;;- and Irariinf;-, wo allow il lo assume llic appellation of lliissiaii .Xini'iicau Coiiipaiiy iindci- our lilulicst iirolcclion. Senator Morgan. — Carryinjion linnlingand trading in the nortii-eas- lern seas and along the coasts? Mr Phelps. — That resnlls from the language employed. And lor lliu imrposo ol' aidinir Hic Company in lis uutcrprises, wo allow llio CommandLMs ol' our land and sea ror(.e>, and so lorlh. Then my learned friend says, wdh his usual facility of speech and iiis usual habit of speaking a little loo soon, "There is nothingin the grant, — jnfl6 — — Ilifiro is somnlliinf; in llio |iroimil)I(\ hiil iiolliin;; in llio f;ninl. " As if lliiTc ever \Mis [I f;riml in llic \\»vU\ lliiil \mis ikiI (•((iilroilcii liy llio liin- ffiiii^'e (if llic |ii'('iinil)l('l Tlic fri'iiiil iirocciMls to sun : I. lly tliiM'inlil i>r ilisrovcry in |i;i>t lime- liy llii-iiaii iiaviniitnis nl' llir iinrlli ruoli'l'ii |iiirl III' AiiLi'ijra. lii'^Mriuiii;.' riniii lllc .'l.'illi ili'.i^irr ul' imilli laliliuli' iiiiil nf till' I'lialii olislaiids i'\|i'iiillii^' IViiiii Kaiiisclialka In llii' iioilii In Aiin'ilra anil snnlli- wanl III Japan, aiiilliv ri^'lil iil'iMissi'ssioii nl'tlii' x-.wuf liv llnssia, wo iikinI ({I'ariimsly pi'linlt llii' rmnpanv In liiivc llii- use of all lunilin;.' unmiuls anil rslablisliincnls U(i\v I'xislinj; iin the iinilli raslorii ix(V) iioast of Ainoiii'a, I'mni tlio alMivu-ini'nIinni'd .'l.'illi ilt>};i'er In Ki'liiiii;; Strall, and nn llii' saiiio alsn on llii> Ali'iilian, Kiirilt>, anil nlliri Islands siln.iled in llii' iiinlli-easluni iiciiin. ■2. To niaki' now discuvi'i'irs. and so Ibrlli ; I miss lliiil. Tiicn '•) is : To MSI' and pinllt liy cm'I vlliin^ wliirli has lipi'ii or shall ho ilisrovoiod in llioso Ini'.'ililii's, nn Ihr Miilaci' and in llio Imsnni nl' Iho oarlli, wilhnnl any cniiipi'lilinii liy nlhoi's. i. Wo niosl fiiaoioMsly poiinil lliis ('.onipaiiy In cslahlish Sollloiiionis in I'tilnio liiMOs, wliorovor Ihoy aio wanlod, aocnrdiiiK In llioir host knowlcdjro and holiol', and roi'lil'y Ihom In insiiro the salVdy ol' Iho inhahilanis, and lo sond ships in Ihnso shoroswitli floods and hnnlols, wilhnnl any iihslaolos on tlio pari nf Iho riovorn- iiionl. I!iil I will rol'er now, as I liavo hogan lo road fwliioh I did nol inlond lo dm lo scolion III : Tho oxoliisivo liglit mosi f;raoinnsly j.'1'anlod In llio ('.nni|iany for ,i poriod of Iwonly years. In use and ciijny, In llii' ahnvc-dosciihod o\lonl nl oniintiy and islands, all pndils and advanla^'os dorivod from linnlin^, Irado, indiisliios. and disciivory of now lands, jirnliihilin;: Iho oiijiiynionl nl llinso prnlils and advaiilnnos nol only In Ihnso wliowmild wish In sail lo Ihnso ooiinlrios on llioir own aonninl. hill loall hiriiior liiinli'i's and Irappors who liavo hooii on^M^'od in llii> Irado, and ha\o llioir vossols ami furs al llioso [ilaoos; and ollior Cmnpaiiios which may havo liooii fni'iiiod will nol ho allnwod In cniillniio llioir Inisiiioss iinloss Ihoy niiilo willi Iho prosonl (Inniiiaiiy with Ihoir froo oniisonl ; And so I'orlii; then : and aflor lliat nobody will liavo any privilo^'os hill this ono Company, wliiili will ho proloolod in Iho onjoyinont nf all llio advaiila};os monlionod. Now, loins make an ond of Iliis wiiili? w(> art; nfion il. Soolioii 1 1 is : L'mlor niir liifihosl prnlootinn li.o lliissian-Ainorioan Conipaiiy \\illh:ivo full ooiilrnl oviM- all ahovo-iiionliniiod io'.aii'ios. and oxoroiso judicial pnwors in ininnr oasos. Tho Company will ai-'ilio iioin'tlod In iiso all Incal facililios fnr fnrlilioa- tions in the defence of Iho connt.y iiider Ihoir control af.'aiiisl foroi.i;n allacks. Xow, lliore is no queslioii al all i! could read ovim'v word of Ihal in addilional oliicidalion) of wlial Itiissia assorted ahoni Iliis I'lir-soal busi- ness, wliioli is all llial we have lo do willi in Iliis case; and llieri! is no qnoslion llial, as I have said, llial asscrlion was neillier cliallenfiod nor inlorlercd willi down lo 1821. There is no question lliat in llio Ukase of 1821 Ilussia asserted llio same thin};, and, nnlnckily, went a f^ood deal further in llic lanf;iiaf;e which was employiul. Now, pnnsing there, in illuslralion of what I have said aboiil the lan- gnafio of the Ukaseof 1821, 1 was going lo refer, and I do nol sec llic re- — 90(17 — f(MTnro ill lliis mortidnl, loa Irlhr from Mr Middlolnii, I boliovo il was, or il niifilil liiivi' Itccii I'roiii llio Krilisli Miiiislcr al SI. I'dcrsliiii-f; I will Imvi' llic ri'lVrcni'i' looked up in wliicli lie s|>oal>s ol' lliin I'kasc of IH2I, and says I c sanu; lliinni, — I do md (jiiolc his very words, Iml ln! says Ihjs was |)i'ol)ai)l\ siinr/i/i/iiiiis/i/ 1| know lir nsi's llial \Nordi oidaiiuid IVoni llic l'!ni|)i>roi': and llial (lie lan^iia^c carried an assertion wliiili il was nol llie iiileiilion oflln' (iovernnienl rmdlv to niakn: lliat il was drawn up Hiial is wlial. In^ iidiinales Ity the word " surrepliliously ") and the si- ^'iialnre olijaitied to il, without il heitip; pei'ceivod hy Ihe Kni|)oror or his iinniediate advisers to ^o nuudi rnrthur than Ihe lan^^na^e went, than, in (he n(!xt plaoo, il had any occasion to {;o, or, in the next plac(<, than he coidd niaintuin hinisidfa^ainst the (dher nations ol' the world in }i;oin^. Now, let IIS suppose that Ihe I'kaseof IH2t had been simply a claim to till! e\i'!iisiv(MiS(M)l' these seals in Itclirinjj Sea, Suppose instead ol' siiyiii}; that no ship will hepermillinl to come within lllll Italian mints vd' the coast, which if literally construed, of course, shuts up the Sea allogc- tlier l»(!caiise no ship could }j;el in or heiiif; in could f;et out af;ain, — ins- Icail ofiisiii<; jan^ua^i; which when it came lo he applied to the ^eo^raplii- calK vcr\ imperfectly known coimlry at llial lime really amounted to a slinllin}; of il w elthe north and at Ihe south, — Ihe I kase had simply asserted Ihe i'if;lil of Kiissia lo the exclusive properly in Ihe seals (tii the Prihiloir Islands, had, in other words, asserted just what we assert today for the liuiled Slates; would that have heeii challeiificd hy (ireiil ifrilain or hy the I'nited Stales.' (lo hack lo the eorrespondeiice which has heen before you and to which I shall allude iifjain, andsee what werelhe (dijeets of the I'nilcd Slates, and sec what were Ihe objects of Great llritain ; and to see what were the interests, the claims, the supposed rifjhts id those countries: and in the li^lit of all that was said on this subject as well as in theslill more slrikiiif; and conclusive li^lil of the Treaties themselves, en (juire whelher ifliiissia in the Ukase of 1S2I bad simply put forth in re- jiard to Ihe seals in Iteliriiii; Stsa what w(< claim to day, the property riglil which enlilles us lo protect them aj?ainst extermination by foreifiiiers, Nvhether il would have been challenged on either side. .\nd there is nothiiif^in this whole case lliat is more plain thai Ihal; and Ihe more carefully Ihe diplomatic correspondence of the three nations is scrulini/.ed, the more clearly il comes out that, if that luul heen all, nobody would have objected. In the first place, Ihey bad no wish and no interest lo object; and, in the second place, il would not have occur- red lo them, if we may judj,'e from anything they saiiid (d'the laud of Ihe /m/c/v. Mr Phelps. - The only im|ioilance now is as hearing on lliis (|uiirrid of IS'JI . \\ lien l!us>.ia made tliis assertion il not only look what Ihe Ifri- tisli I laiim>d as llieir territory, hnl would have c()nti'm|ilated what Ihe Igni- ted Slal(>s Ihen claimed as their tcrrilorv . It would md liav(! laKcn in the lerrittM'y asil is now adjnsled hy the lionudary line, hut it would have lakeu in sonudliiui; wlii(di was then (laiined to he our territory whi(di was I'ldiu- (|nisiied in a <'om|iromise with (ireal Hi'iiain. 'rhei'el'ore you see - and that is the only importance- of il, on h(dli llii>se grounds a chulhuipjc liy these Iwo nations to the lauj;iiai;c' id' the I kase oi' IS2I and lo Ihe lionn- darv wlii. 'I'lien the (pieslioii comes lo this — does i( not .' — whether or not hy those 'Ircaties was sm'rendcrcil to these (ioveriuuenis or eilJKM' of lliem hy linssia iui\ part of licrtdaiui to Ihe fur-seal hnsiness, the fui'-st'al lishery as it was called. If she did, then slie moditied this claim ofesclusive possession that down lo that time slii> had maiidaiued. If she did not, Ihen that claim reniaim>d undistnrhod down to the time of lluM'ession in IS(i7, hecanse there is no other way. .Now in Ihe tirst jilace, what is thai wlii(di is now pi'opost>ilto he inferred linssia snri'eiuler ed what is it that is now claimed that she viidualiy v\ithont hein^; asked -— because you will see l'rou\ the correspondence thai no such claim was :.et up either on Ihe part of (ireal Hritaiu or Ihe liiiled Stales — wlial is il that >he fjave away under this Troaly which she had had, I rejieat, with ml dispute down (o that linie'.' What did slie jjriitnilonsly ^ive awa\ to these conleuding — ifltiK — iiiiliiiiis wild jii'i'ssi'd willi lliiil, seeing ill llii; Ihrrsliolil liiiil llial is ii ^^ravc |>i'(i|)(isiil, lliiil sill- f^iivo awiiy all lliis iiuliislry. My 'oariicd IViiiiids have, nMiiai'lMid llial il was iiol iTf^ardi'd as of any valiii! or siilislaiilial — not iniicli valiir — IIihI down lo llic liiiii; of lln; pnicliasi; (lit; l'(ir-si;alin|^ l)U- siiii'ss was iiul llioii^lil iniicli ol'. Well, Ilia! il was no! llioii;;lil aiiylliin^' of ity iiri'id Itriiain and llie l.niird Slal(!s will he plain I'lionuli wIkmi yon r'c^l'i r lo Jlii; corn^siioiidcncn. Itnl what was il. lo ttussia? lip till llii! dalct ol' iJn; ii7, which has Ikiiii inlrodo'-"! into llie Hi'ilish (iase wilh lii^li I'oiniiiiMidalions ol' ils anlhoiiiy, vol. I, pa^i', 70. yon will liiid il staled llial frdni I7H7, Ihe year al'ler (he Islands were discovered lill 1817, which was si^ven years licl'ore Hie (irsi 'I'rt^ily and ei;;lil hel'ore llii! seetnid, 1>,:;(I0,(I(I0 seal skins had lieen laki'ii, liesides 700,000 llirown inio Ihe sea hcciinsi; lliey were hadly I'lired anil did nol pay lo send to market . 'riierel'ore the slaliMiienl of :i. 000, 000 is niidi!r rallier than above, hecanse adding Ihe 700,000 to tin; ^..'iOO.OOO lakiMi down to IKI7, llien; wi-re oV(;r :{,000,000 down to |,S|7 and then there wine s(;ven years aller- w arils. In the I !i lit ed Stales (lasi-, vol. I paj;e 2(>l , lliesi! lads are conlir- niitd hy .Mr Itvrne and liy Niniianiinoir, and hy iiiitjeiis.aiid liv other antho- rilii's, and that is iit pa^es 12(1 and Kl'i. .Now llic prolits ()!' the Itiissiaii-Ainerican (loinpanv np to IH2I when lli(! I kase was issued had heeii .'SO piM' cent on ils capihil, and in the secoinl period of ils lease lollowiiij; IKlil, il was '.')'.} \)i'V emit. Von will lind those lijiiires in thelJnitiid Slates Case, vol. I, paf^e 2('i(t, and al the time ol'tlie nof^otialion of these Treaties, Hh; sea oiler had Jiliiiost entirely ilis- appeared and (he Inr seal product was the chief source of ils indnslrv. .Now it is that liiisiiicss (hat we are asked lo inl'in' was conceded — Ihrowii open — to Ihe world ;iven away hy llnssia, when, as .on perceive hy the ciirrcspondeiice, no such de~ iiiaiid was iiiadi' nii li ,■ siihjcct ol the I'nr-seal, and docs not appi'ar in the entire limits i; Hie curiispondein'e so i'ar as I liavc! heen uhh' to sec. Senator Morgan. - .\re lliose I'acls dispnliMl ahmil the nnmlier ol seals taken h\ Itussia in H.at period? Mr Phelps. — I do not nnderstaiid llieiii to he disputed hecanse we have ^iveii in our case — in the .Vppeiidix — llii; reference I have just inadi!. Itnl Hun are Hit! evidence, partly, considei'uhly, on the side cd' (ireul llritain, and I am aware of no evidence to Ihe ciuitrary. Thai is Hk! condition of Hi iii^s in which we approach Hie ([iiestion (d' the CI uisl I iic lion o( the Treaties Unit IoIIowimI the I kase of IK2I. .Now referring lo this corresjiondenco — H shall not liavi! to weary you hy reiidiiif; inncli from this correspondence, only lo remind you of sonic principal points — '2070 — llial aredireolly involved) — tlif lirsl queslioii is — and some confusion in my iiuniiilc jiid^incnt lias been Ihi'own upon lliis hrancli ol'llie case hy Iryin^ lo consider llic ni\i;ocialion liclwccn (ircal Ui'ilain and itussia and llio ncgocialion jjolwcen America and lUissia at Hie same lime — (hey, were cnlirely separale as yon will remember. The Americiin ne^ocialion was lirst; il rosnlled in (he Trea(y of 1821. The l!ri(is!i ne};ocia(ion was subsc([uenl — not subseijuenl (o I82'i, but snbseiinenl to Hie American iief{ocia(ion — and related to the Treaty of 182.'). To undersland what the parlies did we must take it in the order of time and consider these nejiociations separately. Let us find out in (he tirs( place nnIuiI Itussia and America did, and (hen we shall be a lonf; way towards delermiiiiiij!;, (not conclusively of course), wiiat Great Hi ilain and Itussia did. I conlinc myself, therefore in the (irs( place lo (he negocia- tioii l)c(wecn (he l'iii(cd Sla(cs and liussia. and leave Great Hrilain quile out of eiKjuiry for Hie picsen( moment. What did .Mr Adams object to in Ihe lirst place in the very lirsl letter lo .Mr de I'olelica Hie llussian Minister when the langnaiie of the L'kase of 1821 was brought lo his allcnlion. On |)age l.'}2 of Hie Isl. l.niled States .Vppendix you will see this lirsl Idler which is dated February 2;)th 1822 : I am (liii'i'lcd liy llio rr.'sidurit of llio United Slates lo iuforni yuu thai ho has sci'ii with Mirprisc in liiis edict. which he had mentioned in the previous section of his letter. The assi'iliiin nf a liMrilniial claim uii llin pari of Itussia, oxlt'iidiiii: to llu' lil'lv llisl di>f;ioe (if imrlli latiliidc on Iliis cuiilimml, and a rt'(,'ulalioii iuti'i'dicling lo all commorcial vessels other than Iliissian, upon the penally of seizures and conlisca- lioii Ihe appioach iipou Ihe hijrh seas within 100 Kalian miles of (lie shores lo which that elaini is iiiadi' lo apply. Tie' relalions of tin' l^uiled Slah's with his Imiiciial .Majesty have ahvay heiMi of the most friendly chafacler: and il is Ihe earnest desire III this (lovenimeiil lo pre^i'rve lliein in that slate. It was expected, hefore any act which should deline llii' hoimilaiy hctween the (errilories of the United Stales and Itussia on this conliiieiil, that Ihe same would have been arran^red hy treaty between the parlies. To exclude the vessels of our citizens from Ihe shore, hi'voiid Ihe ordinary dislaiiee lo which Ihe territorial juris- diction exlends, has exeiled >lill f;i-ealer >ni'piise. This ordinance aiVecIs so dci'ply lie' rii:hls of Ihe Lliiilcil Slates and of llieir citi- zens that I am inslrucled lo iiupiire whelher you are aullioiizi'd to t;ive r'xplaua- tions of the vrrounds of rii;hl upon principles fjenerally reco^rni/.ed by Ihe laws and usages of ualions which can warrant Ihe claims and rcj-'nlalions eoiilained in il. Now, Sir, llicrc is staled, in the (irsl place, in Ihe very clear language of .Mr Adams, the Minister of the Inilcd Slates, exactly what il was that Hie I'liiled Stales complained of in the I kase of 1821 ; and pardon mo for iioinling this out on (he map with a little parlicnlarily. because il is this slalemenl of Hie conlroversy which \oii do not lind modilied — you lind it talked about — discussed and rediscussed, and as I said made perbajis more obscure in the course of Ihe di|Joma(ic cin'respondence. lie says liussia by llic Lkase has claimed down lo Ihe iihi degree of norlli latitude thus tixing arbitrarily a boundary bclweeii Itussia and Hk! Lulled States which hud never been agreed upon b\ Ircalv in l!iis new — -2071 — and compuralively uiKliscovoredcoiinlry that was principally unoccupied, lie says : You have asserted without any agreement, as u boundary, that wiiich we cannot agree to ; and then wiiat? Wliv von have excluded the (lovernuienl of the l.'niled Slates and its citizens I'roni resorting to liie siiores all'ectcd within it)(( miles and therefore you have interfered with our rigiils. Now is it not clcariii this case that al llial lime no United Slates vessel iiad ever gone into the Heliring Sea or gone up liiere I Indicating on the planf.'They had no selllemenls; they had no hade, hut they had a trade that IkuI licgnn to be important as you will remember from tiic evidence along lliis shore Indicating on llie map . Now what did Mr Adams mean when he said that Ihe rights of the I'niled Slates were alVecled by exclu- sion from llic shores, in the language I have just read? Did he mean that they were excluding the I'niled Stales from taking fur-seals in the I'rihilof Islands, or in i^eliring Sea? There is no suggestion of such a thing. Now what is Ihe reply of Mr de I'olctica to that. It will be found in the following passage ; — 1 shall bumorc succinct, Sir, in the px|iosiliun of the uKjtivcs which (li'tiTiniiu'el Ihe liii|)eriaU'iovoriiinL'nt to prohiliil foreign vessels Ironi approaching the iiorlii- west coast of Anieiica belonging to Russia within the ilistaiico of at least ini) Italian miles. This measure, however severe it may al Ihst appear, is, after all. hut a measure of prevention. II is exclusively ilireeled against Ihe enl[ialile enlerpiises of foreign ailvonturers, who, not content \.itli exercising upon the coast ahovi^ mentioned an illicit trade very prejudicial to Ihe liglils ivserved (Milirely lo the Uussian-.Vmeriean Company, take upon theni besides to furnish amis and aminu- nition to the natives in the lUissian possessions in .America, exciting them likewi-e In every manner to resist and revolt against Ihe authorities there established. The ,\iueri('(Ui (loverninent duublless rin'olleels the irregular eonducl of these adventurers, the majoiily nf whom was composed of .\merican citizens. You see liiere thai shows what Ihey were lalkiiig about : Ihis lieen IhiMibject (if Ihe uinsl pressing remonslianees on Ihe part of Hus>ia I the I'Vdeial Ciovernineiil IVoni the lime thai Diplomatic Missions were orgaiii/.ed u iweeii the countries. Toiii Itussia lo Ihe !•■. it pretended liiere was ever a remonslraiicc :n! ilVreuce of the I idled Stales vessels in liehring 'rii:>u llie idler conlinues : These remonstrances, repeated at did'erenl times, remain conslanlly willionl etVect. and so forth . Tiien it sa\s : The Imperial Government saw itself under liie necessity (d having recourse lo (he means of coercion, and cf nieasiiiiiig the rig^.r .lecording to Ihe inveterale character id' the evil lo wliieh it wished In put a sbip. Ill other words, this is what llic llussian Minister says, if you inter- iii' !«■■ — -2072 — pret it b\ the liinj,'ua^'c thai is put into lis inoiilli now : " The object of lliis pi'ovisioii ill llio I'kase of 1821 is to |> il a slop lo tlepredalioiis in Holu'ing Sea wiiicii iiavc iiocoiiu injurious, mischievous, allhouf;h nobody has ever allempled to enter the sea at ail. " lie would conlnidict iiimseir, in the lanfiuagc that he utiers H'nou atli'ibute that lanfsuajie to the interior of Hidirinj^ Sea, I'alhcr than lo the real North-west coast. lie says he must recpiesl him lo consider liial the ordinary conditions of a shut sea attend the case, and lliat the Uussian Government might well have claimed it, but he sa\s : fiul it profoii'i'il only asserting' ils esseiilial riirlils willioiil lakinjr any advantage of localities. Xow what is Mr .Vdam's reply to that? It will be found on page 13i. Of course, I sors no specille ground of charge has ever bei'ii alleged by them of any tran>aclion in il whieh lln' I'niled Stales were, by tlie ordinary laws and usages of nations, bounil either lo reslrain or lo pnnisb. Now is it possible lo doubl what those g •.iilcnien were hilking about in such language as thai'.' W hal localily did Ihey refer to. Mid they refer to a localiU which Ihe I iiiled Slales vessids had never invaded, where Ihey had no hade, and no husiness — where no remonstrance ever could have been made, or did they refer lo the shore lo which alone such language had any sensible application'.' Then comes M. de I'olelica's repK, ami lliis is Ihe last letter in this conneclion Ihal I have oecasinn lo read, lie savs : As lo Ihe righl claimed for Ihe eili/.ens of the I'niled Slales of trading with Ihe natives of Ibe eounlrv of the norlh-wcsl coasi of .Vnn'riea. without the limits of Ihe jurisdielion belonging lo l{ns>ia, the Imperial GovermnenI will not certainly Ihiid; of limiling il. and slill less of allai'King il tln're. I!ul I cannol dissendde. Sir, Ibat this samelraib' beyond Ibe :;isl degree will nu'el wilh diflieidlies and inconve- niences, for which Ihe .\meiiciin owners will only have lo accuse IlK'iidwii iuipin- dence aflei' the publicily which has been given lo the inea^ures laken and so forlli. Now what I derive from Ibis, Sir, is Ihat in Hk' origin of Ibis conlro- versy between America and (iieal Itrilain when the language of Ihe I'kase — it)l;\ — of IH2I was lirsl clinllcnfifd, llie claim of llie United Slulos l)y laiifiimne wliicli cannot he niislakon because il was only one siihjecl llial il had a|)|)licalion lo was. first : •• Von liaxe extended yonr Itmindary witiionl antliorily to a limit that we do not a^iicc to. " Secondly : •' Von have nndeitakeii to |iul a stop lo the business which the United Slates vessels have lonj? been carryiii;,' on in tradiiif;- with inilives on their coast and lo exclude ns from comiuj; within 100 miles of that coast, and that assertion we altoficthcr deny". Now I repeat, Sir, what I said a little while n^o : suppose all there had been in the Ukase of 1821 was : " we assert the exclusive rijibt lo fur- seals in MehriuftSea ", is lliere any reason to suppose that wliatMr Adams said or what he prcr said or what any .American has ever said who cor- iTsponded on Ibis subject —either that the (iovernment had any desire lo controvert that or any personal interest in controverting it, or that that assertion of right would have been for a moment challenged? Vou will observe, Sir — yon have not failed lo observe 1 am sure in what has been derived froi : Miis correspondence — Ihat the inclusion of IheHehring Sea into Hie result Oi this correspondence is allogelher by inference : and that with the exception — I am speaking now of the .\merican nego- cialion — 1 am not referriuu to the liritish negociation I know what is said about Hebring Sea there — with respect to the .American nego- ciation llie controversy is entirely in regard lo what is called " the norlh-weslern coast " in this controversy, as it would seem to be. in con- tradistinction to what 1 have called Hie " north-eastern coast " as we were saying a liltle while ago — the controversy was altog(!llicrin regard lo the actual rights and occupalion of the United Stateson the nortli wes- tern coast, and the boundary line; and \tn\ only Iji'iiig liehring Sea into that controversy b\ assuming that I he general language which is employed speaking of the northwest coast ////«/ meant was so and so. " " Well, so and so ", rejoins Mr Adams. " we have no quarrel about : we have made 110 point about. ?'/».< is what we claim — the adjustment of the boim- dary, and Ihal our legilimale trade on the coasl shall not be inlerlered with. " " That, we never intended lo interfere with ", says llussia, and the Treaty of lH'2'i results without Ihe least cmiipromise Hussia gives away nothing, except, as Mr Middlelon [loinls oul, the unforlunale phra- seology which went a great deal too far. Mr .\y tlie I'ollovvin;.' Arlii les ". Senator Morgan. — That is the ilh .\rtiele'.' Mr Phelps. — No, that is Ihe I si Article. The 'ith Article is this : Il is nevertheless underbtood liial durinj; a term of 10 years, rountini.; IVoin tlie sifrnalure (if tlie preseiil convention, the ships of holli I'nwers. or uliicli helmii; to their citizen-; or snh.jecls respectively, may ruciplocally IrLMpient, without any liiii- (ii'anrc wlialovor. llio inlnrinr soas, j;iiirs, harbors, ami rn'i'ks, upon Iho roasi iiii'iilioiinil ill llii; prci-oiliiif,'- arlicio, for llie purpusi' of lisliiiii.% and Iradin;: with tlio nalivcs (if lli(> I'onnlry. Senator Morgan. — V\lis did tlics liinil llic rijjlit ol'lisliing iind tnid- iii}; willi llie nalivcs fur a period of Id years, and make il rcciiirocal, if llioso rij;lils were siirivndorcd hy liiissia inlo tlie liands of the oilier two Governmciils? Mr Phelps. — itecaiisi! tlie [trovisions of Article 10 refer lo a liberty llial the respective nalions should have, to f;o lo the shores of each other and Article I undertakes to didine what those shores are. Senator Morgan. — And it seems lo relate also lo the right of lisliing as svell as resortinj; lo the shore. Mr Phelps. — Certainiy il does. Article T provides thai both shall have Ihe right — thai is to sa\ that neither shall he disturbed, or restrain Ihe other — iieilher in ten years nor in any other time. That is only a dillbrcnce of pliraseolof;\ from sa\iuii both sides siiall have the right " in that part id' thedreal Ocean. VN'hether thai includes Hcdiring Sea s the (pieslion I am condng to. Then it says ihal foi' l(l\|ears neither party shall be restrained from visi- ting the interior seas. That is article i. Of course, I should refer lo arlicio 3 which gives Ihe boundary line, and Ihat makes the two intelli- gible. I read the Isl arti(de first, and then article i, without reading article .']. Article 3 says this : 11 is innrnovor agn^ed that, liorearior, llicrc sliall md lie lornied liy Ihe citi/.ctis of till' Uiiiled Slates, or iiiulor tlie anlliorily of Ihe said slates, any estaljlislinienl. upon Ihe nortli \ve^l coast of Anii'iica, nor in any nf (he islands adjacent, to the north of lifly-fonr denre-s and forty niinntrs of north lalitnde; and that, in the same manner, Ihere shall lie none formiMl hy Hnssian snhji'cts, or luuler antlio- rity of Itnssia, south of the same ]iarallel. Senator Morgan . —The diflicullv in my mind is this. If the rights in arlide I and Article IV are identical, why siiould these two (ioverii- menls lirst agree thai they should b(> sm'rendered absolutely and for ever, and then afterwards agree Ihat a limit often years should be put on Ihem. Sir Charles Russell. — Article IV applies lo territorial waters — " interior st>as, gulfs, harbois, creeixs, and so on. " Mr Phelps. — I suppose this is llie reading of IheTieaty in plain words, as I construe it — of course il will bo for Die belter consideration of this Tribunal. Like many Treaties it is not very plainly expressed, among which might be included the one Ihal has constituted Ibis Tribunal. 'Ihe parlies are so afraid of giving something away thai il results in obscurity; but I understand this to be the nwaniiig of the Treaty, bearing in mind that il was largely an unoccupied and partly undiscovered country al Ihal lime : J{ussia shall have Ihe exclusive right lo make settlements down to "ii" 10' — in other words, Ihat shall be considered the territory of llussia, and you shall not come above that : lielovv that, as far as llussia and tin' United Stales are concerned al aiiv rate, (because the rigliis cd' (ireat 202 — 2(l"Ci liritain do not come in licroi il sliall he consiilci'od llio Icrrilory of llio I'liitpd Sliih's iiiid Itiissiii will no! ^n licliiw .'I'l' id'. Now yon li;ivi> ii liiiiiniliirii Inic. This haviiij; liocii di'loriiiiiird, I'or III vcars IIm' ships oI' (lie lw(i coiiiilrios limy ciilcr fiicli ollicis' Icriilorial wiilrrs and ilu! islands in Hit! inlorioi'scas and f;iiirs I'or Ihu |inr|ioses (d'ciM'lain li'adc and snhji'cl lo cortain roslriclioiis. Thai is llio nicaniiif' of llic Ticaly . Senator Morgan. — .\iid alter lliaf, llioy may onlor Uiissian waters |)erniaiienlly I'or llie same purpose '.' Mr Phelps. — Oh no. .Vrlis. That is Ihe way I read the Treaty ; and all llial we have to do with that here foi" the purpose of elucidating' the (|iieslion wi; are cliarficd with, is to find out whether lleh- riiif; Sea was or was not included within the terms of this Treaty : and the dill'erence that mak(>s is this. II' ISidirinj; Sea was included wilhin the meaning ofllie term in the 1st Article of this Treaty, then it is open to he argued hy implication, and not directly, that Itiissia did throw open lo the I'niled States — ^I'or I am only dealing with that negociatioii now i — a right of lishingand so Torlh, in the liehring Sea which might he ar- gued to all'ecl Ihe exclusive right — to this fur seal lishery, though it does not say so. On the other hand, if Itehriiig Sea is not included wilhiii Ihe terminology of this Article of the Treaty then the Treaty lias nothing lo do with Ihe case whatever. Lord Hannen. — Nothing lo do with Br/ir/ni/ !^m. II would have to do with the question of lishiiig in whatever is the proper moaning of the words " I'acillc Ocean ". Mr Phelps. ^ Vs : not wilh ///'// mil/ Si'i,. Lord Hannen. — Ves, that is what I say. Mr Phelps. — Yes that is what I moan it lias nothing lo do with this rase so far as Hehi'ing Sea is concerned. Thai is what I meant lo say. I will repeat that in order that we may start in what I am imperfectly trying to say with a perl'ectly clear coiieeplion ol'what I am contending I'or : That Itussia liiul had e\clusi\o occujialion and exclusive claim lo I Ik; fur-seal fisliery 11/ Iriisl. prohahly to more than that down lo 1821 , is not disputed, it cannot he dispnled hecausc; there is no evidence lo dispute il upon. Now if liussia ever gave away her claim on that suhjecl sli(> gave it away when tshe signed this Treaty with Ihe I'niled Slates and afterward with fircal Britain. If she gave it away then directly, or hy implication lo any extent then the Treaty touches Ihc question of iJehring Sea in this case. If she did not, that possession continued nnhroken down to 18(17 when she conveyed it to the I'niled Slah's. II all turns then — all those quos- tioiis that are snhmitlod lo you except so far as the I'acds arc undisputed bociiuse the posjossion is undisputed — it all turns upon the (|iiostion whetli-rin Ihe treaties of 1821 and 182,^ Itussia did throw open to these countries the only right that she had previously asserted lo he exclusively in horsclf'.' If she did, that is one thing. It she did not, then those — -20" — Troati«'s so fur lis tlio licliriiij; Sen is concerned disii|)|)ear onl of Ihis case. Senator Morgan. — I uiitlcisland \oiii' coiilenlion lolic, llial in order |o llirow o|)en, as \oii say lliose ri}{lils, lliere wonid have (o he a dislincl and aflii'nialive ex|iiessi()n in IheTrealy? Mr Phelps. — Ves, Sir, or else a loleralion of an invasion of il. II may he I'.r/nrsned or iiii/i/ifil. II is expressed when Ihe nation |)nls il into a Tieaiy or a convenlion : il is implied when she permils IIk; world lo eonit! there and inlerfere willi, and participate in, Ihe tisiieries. ,\s I pointed onl, there is no evidence of aclnal interiHiption carried down to IK(>7, and therefoi'e if Itnssia has done anything; to weaken iier claim she did il hy the provision of a Trealv, whicli, as we shall see, never was acted upon in thai sense lis eitlier of lln^ parties to il. These two (pn's- lions llieii : \\ hal is meant hy Ihe " .North \\i!st <'.oast ", and wlietlier liehrin^ Sea is incinded in Ihe term •• I'acitic Ocean '" and " dreat Sontii Sea " are Ihe same ((iir'slion. Vou arc ajtain statin;; the same liiini; in dilVereid woi'ds. If Iteiuin^ Sea is iiu'lnded. Mien von may say the .Noi'lh West Coast I'lins np and allacivs Ihe \\ eslcrn Coast of UcliringSea — what is now .Vlasiva. If liehrin^ Sea wns not incinded. Ilien Ihe .North W'esI Coasl was limited io wlialwe say il was limited. Tiie two in((niries are Ihe same. The President. — Von are of opinion, at any rate, tlial the Treaty of I82i has nolhing lo do willi Ihc eastern coast, wilii Ihe Sihcrian Coasl. Mr Phelps. — I thiidv il has notliiiii.' to do willi the Siherian Coasl. The President. — Tlien Article I windd not apply In tlie Coasl of Kam- sehalka? Mr Phelps. -■ Certainly nidnxly claims I suppose llial il wonld have thai ell'eel. That was oiu' consideration that I was intemlin^ to advert to on the (pieslion of the constrnctinn of this — thai if yon ^'av(' Ihe cons- truction that my friends conteml foi'. yon ^o tV(;m ////v whole Siherian Coast {indicating on the mapi llial nohody i;ver laid any claim lo or had any business wilh, and which Itnssia wonld certainly not have volnnttiered to surrender. Thai is one eonsideralion that heai's on the meaning >i this. Now we come to the meaning- of the wurdsin Ihislirst Ai'ticic in the Treaty. .\iiy piirl III' (he (iroiil Ocoini, comnionly ciillcd I'acilic (tceaii, or Soulli Sea. Now what is tin- (|ut'stion? It is vviielher « Behring Sea » in Ihe conunon speech and nnderslan- dingof men at that time was designated as the " I'acilic Ocean", or whether it was not? Coini/ioit/i/ called — not xonieliiiirx called — lha( is a very dill'ercnl expression is llial part of the ocean, of Ihe sea, (d' the water? Is that Hehring Sea? Was ilthen commonly called and designated as part of the Pacilic Ocean? If it was, then this Trealv includes it : if il was not the — '^07 S — Tieah tloc-i nof iiiclutlt' il. IT llial (|iii'slir- iiiiix'd, llicii we >liiiiilil have lo icsorl lonllici' |)riii('i|ili'^ ol' ruiisli'iii'linn Id liiiil mil wiml llii' Ti'ciijv iiicaiil. IT llclirin^ Sea i> iiicliuicd in IIk; |iliras(! " I'iicilic (licim ", il iniisl he u|miii (iiic uT Iwn j,'riiiiii(ls — cillii!!" Ilial llic lan^iia^r cil' llic 'rrcaly iiicliidi's il, llial is (n say, lli(^ (l('s('i'i|iliiiii '• ciiiiininnh/ (•alicil I'acilic ((<'t'aii " iiu'luilcs il. H' il (iocs, llial is an cihl ol'iL H'iltioL's not, and llu; lan^iia^i' is lonnd to he andii^nous, lh<'n il nuisl l)(' incoiporaU'd into llic Tn-aly liy \\w. iiii(li>rslaii situation ol' hein^ohli^i'd lo say : "These words an; so far anihiiiiious thai we caiinol say that tlicy do necessarily iiuiiitlr Itehrin^ Sea in "the I'aeitie Ocean", and we eaiinol say that tlicy necessarily rrrhidr it, then \oii liavc! pil to tind mil what the parties nieant hy the use of laii};iiaf;e which is siisccplihh^ of two very dilVcrenl nieaniiii;s. \N hicli way did lliey understand il .' Now holli sides sel I'orlli \ci V lar^e lists of maps. Tiie monienl you i;i) lo the nieaniiif;- of Hie phrase "commonly ealh^d the I'acilic Ocijan", yon have recoiii'se lo llie maps. Iloth parties set I'orlli a list of maps — there is a very larj.;e list. Then; arc Kl.'l in Mr Itlainc's list; llicrc arc more than llial in the Mrilish Case or r.oiiiiter Case, wherever that appears. My friend Sir Itiidi.ird \\ ehstcr was mislaken in sayiiij; that most of those in .Mr Itlaine's list wer(> iiieliidcd in theirs — liicic arc only ahmil ten. lie will liiid, when he compares these lists that there arc only alioiil l(» of Mr lUaine's maps llial arc to he hiiiiid in the liritisli Colleclion. Sir Charles Russell. — Iteforc my friend {^oes lo the maps iiii^hl I ask him lo read .M. de I'olelica's description of what he underslood hy llic "I'acilic Ocean". Il is in the despatch my fricn' has passed over. Mr Phelps. — I have passed over them all. Sir Charles Russell. — The dale of il is llie 2Hlli Kehriiary 1822. Mr Phelps. — If you will kindly ;;ive il me, I will refer lo il. Sir Charles Russell. — II is only this passaj^e : 1 iiiij;lil, ill tlie last pLil coast ol /Siiiciica. Iidiii lii'liriiij; Stiail t(i llic ,'ilr^t ilejii'ci.' cil'iiorlli latitmlc. ami mi the iipposilc side of .\sia ami till! islands ailjacciil, IVmii llie -^aiiic sir.iil to llu; i.'itli ili'iiici'. Mr Justice Harlan. — .Mr .Adam's reply lo lliul shews Ihullic unders- aoTii — 1(10(1 lliitl llii! |iiii'l 1)1' IIk; I'acilic Ocuuii llicre rulorrud lu, was soiilli (il'lliu Ali'iiliiiii Isliiiiiis, lii'i'iiiisc lii^ >|H'iiKs iirilic ilislinii'i) Immii^ 1.0110 iiiilus. Sir Charles Russell. — Willi j,'n'iil ilclVnuicc iiol so. .Mi' .Vdiuiis in i'i'|il\ pdiiils (iiil lli:il the (li'sci-i|ili(iii wiiiilil covci'aii cxlciil DlucL-aii wliicli, al iiiii> |)arl, soiilli ol' llic .Mi'iiliaiis, would iiii^asiint iOOO iiiihis. Mr Phelps. - Well, llial has Itci.'ii r'i'ad ixdbi'i!, and llial doos not loll' 'i lilt! jioiiil of my ai'i^MiiKMil in IIk^ li-asi (Ic^imm;. H' yon ari> ^'oiii;; lo I'xaniini' IIm; wilnossos, and liiid onl wIicIIum', every lime llial a man wlit-ii lalKinj; aluml anollier poini uses llie pliiase '• I'aeille Oeean " as inchnl- iiif/ lliis sea or uses il as I'.nliidinii it, \,)ii iiev(!r would eoine lo an I'lid. iNolliin^, is more ind(dermiiial(! on siicli an in(|nii'y, llian (lie lan^'iiaf^'i,' which is used when lliu |iarlic(ilur |ioinl (d' when; llie hoiindary line is, is nol. in mind and is mil in t'oiilroveisy. H' I were lo lansaek llislory, l,il(!i'alnr(!, and 'I'lavids lor the |)ur|)ose (d' ueuiimulaliiif; iiislaiii'es in whieh Iho " I'aeilie Ueoan " is spoken of as not iiieludiii}; Hehriii;; Sea, why wluil a mass ol' mulerial I should liriii^ loj^eliier. .\nd what does il prove? .N'olhiiij;- al, all. Itecanse when Ilit; parlitjs were usiiif; llial gene- ral expression llieir minds were nol on liiis hoiindary ami lliis pai'licular |iaiiil we ai'e now discussing'. So, on llie oilier liaiid if you cull lliis correspondenee you will find pleiilv of inslaiiecs in whieh casual expressions are used wiiiidi would look OIK! way or llie (^llior — I allrihiileno iin|iorlaiice lolliem on oilher side) — you '^i> lo Uk; maps wliicdi yon liiid of ^eof;rapliers from whom we ^el all our ideas or;;eof;raphy, wilh aliases, cliarls, maps and so Toiili conveying; and ein!)odyinff all llie knowledge Ihere is — when you C(jme lo linil onl where Iheydrew Uie lim; then you are approaciiinj;' Ijic aiisw(;r lo the (jueslion : wiial is commonly called Ihu I'acilie Ocean? Then in llie consiilcralion of maps there is a I'urlher discriminalion to he made aiiy iirc ciilli'd, \,: .'diiic so insigiiiiicaiit llial yuiir hnllalinii shrinks into a (ioi'poi'ai's ;:iiard. II is cxaclly so willi Ihcsc iiiu|is. I was a|)|iallcd (sii|i|iiisin^ llial I had sonic idea of what iho niorils ol' Ihis (|ii('slioii wasi, \\liinlly IVom whal I iiad snpposed. II is not until yon analyse tli(> ll!(] that \on lind what the resnll is. .Now to he;;in with and lu lind out what the^c men mcaid in IKJi h\ connnonly called, we may dismiss snlise(in(Mit maps. Tlit^y wim'i; talking' ahoiit the geography ol' the world sis it was understood llien, tieography and geo- graphical terms change as i^vcrylhing else does. W'e should, lew of us, reeogoni/e in.ips l»y which we hegan Ihe study (jf (Jeography. .\s applying to Ihis world al Ihe present linn- though the world is very much the same iis it was then, you discard the sid)se(pient maps, I'ightly or wrongly; and I iuidress myself to the considei'ation of Ihe maps that were considered aulh(tralive — that \on may assume in the ahsence of ovitlenee guided the views of intelligent people as to these geographical distinctions. So let us consider the maps hetween IHOO and IH2.'^, the American Treaty lieing in IK2i. Let us look al those maps, and in looking at those maps let us lo(d« al Ihose lliat were aulhoritalive — that were respectahle — that may fairly he snpposed, as I have said, to gn' 'e Ihe ideas of iidelligeni and eilucaled men. Lei ns look at those, let us reniemher that these Iwo countries naturally — not to the i sion of oilier nia|)s — look al their own — the tirst resort of a country intcUigenl enough to have scienlitic maps and pnhlicalions — the lirst and natural resort of men in ohtaining what yon nniy call llial coininon understanding is to theirown maps. Take (he Hnssiau maps for instance and I shall dispose of what there is lo say ahoiil that hefore the recess There are eleven linssian maps cited. Mr Justice Harlan. - - On hoth sides. Mr Phelps. — On Imlli side.'. Four in .Mr Ulaiiie's list, and seven i.i the Hritish list. .Ml hut one of them give a separate name toUehring Sea. It was called at this early date as you know, the Sea of Kamschalka or " Hassin du .Nord " — lo some extent Ihe " Heaver Sea ". .Ml those eleven maps give a separate designalion lo this sea, and Ihe question is what a Itussian, in making an agreement of Ihat sort, commonly understood? The map that fails lo give il is a map hy l.isianky, which illustrates his hook of Travels. II is not a (ieograpliical map or chart — il is a map annexed to a book illustrating his travels for he did not go into the lUdiring Sea, and Ihe consequence is in his map no special desigiuition is perhaps to he given to liehring Sea. It is left without a name, hut in all Ihe others every one of them — and some of them (juitc authoritative you lind a se- parate name given. Mr Justice Harlan. — Mi" IMielps, I would like to ask you there, do you know wliiil sdiiic ol' lliosc Itiissiiin winds on llic ina|i of IH02 iiicun? I'l'i'liiips Sii' r.liiirli's lliisscll iiiiiy Iw altir lo siis? I sec on lliiil iniip ol IHII2, lliri'i' nil' ri'i'liiin wonls iniirki'il ini wlial wi> riill Itcliiin^'SiM in Itns- siiiii; nnil Ih'Iow lliiil. I'iM'liiiii oIIu'i- wonls. hovouKnow snIiiiI tliosc lliis- si;in woi'ds mean? Sir Charles Russell. — " llcavi-r Soa ", I liclicvc il is caliiMl. Mr Justice Harlan, — What is iho Knjilish ol'llio Hussian words bulow Ihc Ali'iilian islamls in lar^o irllci's'.' Mr Phelps. — " SonlhiTii Si-a, or still Sea ", I think. Sir. Sir Charles Russell. — TIhtc is a|)|ian'nll\ an altiM'nalivc reading;, Till' ii'miiiifj 111' Ihii words to tlii' rinlil is " I'ai'ilic Sea or I'ai'ilir Ocean "; 'I'lii; words lo tlii> li'I'l ! do mil ivxarlly know tin' meaning of. Voii will liml tlii> i-\|i!anation •hidf^c, of lliis |iarli('iilar ma|), on pa^c *.l'i of lh(! 1st \olnmo ol'tlu' A|i|ii'nili\ to Iho llritisli llinintcr C.aso. II is till! ma|) of 1(^(12, and a|i|iari'ntly the words licluw arc " Sonlhcrn Ocean or Still Sea "■ Mr Phelps. Vcs. that is what thoy moan. Sir Charles Russell. — That is .No 21 on that \nv^c. Von will (ind the explanation oral! of them. There is also the name " Kamsrhalkhu Sea " running; parallel to Kamschalka. It is marked on the same |ilan. Mr Phelps. — Now as lo Ihese maps — if yon will iiidnl};c me Sirwilh anotherword licfore luncheon I shall l)ual)lc to di miss them. I have said that ten of liiese maps }iave a separate desif^nalion. This map has tiio imporlance of liein;; in the first jilace the Oflicial map of the Uussian (io- vcrnment. pidilished hy its Onarler .Master Ccneral's jtepailmenl. The others arc the work of pri\ati' (ieojtraphcrs. This istlie (tflicial map. In llic next place the case shows thai this map was aclnally nsed in tliisnen'o- ciation hecansc a copy of it with manuscript notes of his own is sent hy Sir Chailos Ifapit in his Despatch to his CovernmenI on the !7tli No vcmher 1821; so llial it is not only ofticial hnt il was aclnally used at SI. I'elcrshiirj; hclween the Itrilish Minister and the iJrilish (iovernment and transmilled hy llie represeiilalive of the Itritisli (iovcriimenl lo his own eoimtry. .Now I ask if yon havelo f;ivo a meaning on the part of lliissia to this term " commonly called the I'acilic Ocean "are yon f;oini!: lo give the moaning that is opposed to ten maps, out of eleven, opposed lo the ofti- cial map of the (iovernment opposed lo the map that was nsed in the negotiation? I shall now. Sir, with yonr permission consider some other maps in the ease. |The Trihnnal here adjonrnod for a shorl time.] Sir Charles Russell. — I have asked my learned friends' permission iiofore he resumes to point out in reference to the map hefore Mr .lustice Harlan that (here are some other words that had heller be explained. The President. — If you please, Sir Charles. _ '■IOH-2 — Sir ClmrlnH niiflFiill. Vmi will (i|i>,('iv(' jiisl iiorlh ol' Iti-liiiii^ Slniil M iimiiliiT (if Weird-- shrli'liiiif; iiwiv In llii' iif;lil mid fioiii;; down in llii> dircdiiiiMd' llii' ."inili dc^i'iM', I'lidiii;,' jii'-il mIikvc llic "Kllli d(';;n'i>. The lr;iM'il;diim o( Ihusc wnrds lii'Miimiiij; IVniii llrliriiif; Sliiiil iiiiil fAniiif; down Inlwi'i'ii .1.")' iiiid .">(i' is " I'iirl (iT llic iKirUiwcsi Cdiisl ol' Vmcrii'ii ". I iln iiid. orcniirsi', iii'jiiic ii|ii)n il ; I iimtcK wish In Ii';iiis|,i|c il. I'Ih' I'iicI is I'ld'crrcd lo iil |>;if;i' 1)2 id'llii' lliilisli ('.use, Mr Pluilps. Niiw , Sir, Mil' i|iii'slioii we iirc iijion is, wlicllici' oc iml li\ this d('sij;n;dion nf whid is i'(iiiimiiMlv I'idlcd ijii' I'milic (tccaii or Siiidh Si'ii, Iti'hi'iiii; Sim is inrhidi'ir.' I s;iv Ihid is ii (|iii'sli(Hi Ihid riui iiidv he (h'('i(hMi III Ihis ihi\ li\ Ihi' ;iiilli(iril;ilivi> niii|is Ihiiii in cxisli-ni'i', mill wliit'li llii>s<> |i;ii'lii's iiiiiN lie |ii'(>siiiiii'il lo hiivi- lii'cii iid'nniii'il id', nv \\liii'h we kiiDW lhi-\ iiad hi'l'iiri' IIiimii. This id'liriiil and iiiijiiirlaiil iiia|i nf ISll'J lavs Ihal diiwii in snili a wav Ihal il is in'irccllv iniiincciNahlc, I rcs- |i('i'iriill\ siiliiiiil. Ihal any iir;;idialiirs drawiii;; a Trcaly iidi'iidiM;; li> include llidirini; Sra should liavc hd'l il willi any sin h winds as jhi'sc, willi Ihi' map hidiiri' Ihi-iii shiiwin^; as i| dues Ihal il is nol ini'iiidi'd, liiil is desi^iiali'd li\ a dill'iTiMil iiatni-, Ihal il' liiey di'siri'd lo iiir|iiili< il lliey woiili! nol have iisi'd lan^na^e Ihal would have ineliided il. Itelore we have done w ilh Ihis disenssion. I shall show Ihal il was |n'o|Mised lo inlro- diiie jiisI siiili lani;iia;,e, and llnssia refused. I am now iijion llie niaps. I liave nol ^ol Ihioii^h willi Ihis disnis- sion. and my learned rriends will see, lielore il j;e|s done I lliink, Ihal slroiii; as llie ariiiiinenl isil'il were drawn Ironi lliesr nia|is. il is nolliinn' lo llie ,iii;iiiiii'iil Ihal is drawn Irom Ihe eorrespondeine ilseil', ilelore leaving; I lie l!iissiaii niajis, however, |e| iiie eall a lie ill ion lo a map of |H|7, which is named in Ihe llrilish lisl and which is likewise so lar an ol'licial map. called llie jliissian \\ ai Topojiraphical Itepi'il Map; likewise an ol'li- cial and pnlilic map pnldislied li\ llie Itnssiaii liovernnienl much lalcr, lieiiii: llie llieii lalesi lliissian map al Ihe lime of lliese iie^olialions ; llial is lo sa\. Iieiiij; ."i or ti vears old. In Ihal. llr/triiu/ Sni is named in Ihe same way as Okholsli Sea is, and /'nci/ii- Oiniit is named. So Ihal if Ihe Itnssian (iovernmenl had ri'!'"ri'iice lo or was informed li\ ils own lali'sl ol'licial map, il slales slill more slronjily and cleaiK llian Ihe map, if possihle, of ISifJ. So iiiiich for Ihe llnssiaii maps, and, hear in mind, I am slill dealing willi Ihe iiei;iilialions lielween Ihe I'nileil Slales and llnssia. and exclndiii;; hir Ihe presenl Ihe shore Ihal Ureal llrilain had ill llii' siihseipienl nefjolialions, l,el me rel'er lo Ihe American maps. If Ihe lliissian maps, which lliey iiiiisl he presmned lo have lieeii inslriicled \\\ and wliich lliey did have hel'ore lliem. desimiale Ihis waler as a separate see. lei us sec wlial the \iiicriiaiis, if |lie\ referred lo their own maps, had in the wa\ of informatiiiii helore them. Of Ihe III maps piihlished in .Vnii-rica and cited. ;ill liiil two j;i\e a separate name to llelirini; Sea. Yon have there e\a<'tlv what \oii liiid on the other side id' llie .\ I Ian tie, in llnssia ; all hilt two uive to jleliriii!; Sea a (lilVerent name. What alimil those two .' (Inc — -i(i,s:i ~ ol'lhi'in is fi iiiap wliicli is iiiiiiiiilhiH |iiililisli(Ml Ity l''ii:liliii;^ Lucas, in IKt'J, mill llir inii|i ill lliiil mIIiis iiiiinrdiiili'ly iiicci'diii^ il jiihI IIh' niii|i iiiiiiir- iliiili'lv rii!l(n\iii;; il i^ivi- (lii' si'|iiiiiili' iiiniii- ol' tliii sou hirii uvcr llii' pap' llic ollivr way, and IkoK al llii; (iiii', llial siiVii'cils il, villi wil! liiid Hi" |iwlilisliiT id' llial map did imdcrslaiid lliis III liiM si'paralc wiiIit, and luiiilli'd llial. in litis pailiiuiai' map Iti'iaiisi' il was a ittap id' liii' W'ufld ; llir nti(! pfi'i'i'diu;; il iw lite ma|i id' tin- wi'sl.i'iii iti'tiiisplii'i'i', and llii' iiiti'i'idlovNiitp; il I iln mil Kiiuw lite iiaitii' of; lull, in ilii'. iiiapid'llii' NN'iiid, wlii'li id'( iiiir-c, wmild ti'ttdrf litis vcfv iituili smallcf, llii! wiifds ail- (i/iiilli'd wliiili Ik! j;ivt!S iit llii' prcviDii.i maji. 'I'lir oIIht map ill wliirli il is md jiivcii a si'parali' name, is ime pnliiislted li\ Cufey and S'lii. I'liiladelphia \HS.\, and lite map is map .'t in lite alias, and llie snhjerl is md ;:,ivrn, ll\i)i!;.'ji Iln e.islerit pari i<\' I'.elii im,' Sea is >.|iii\mi ami il has iiiil a sepaiale name. .Now, whv i-. iiiiU mic id' li!ii-.e maps riled.' We have md l!ie (dher maps, and lliev an itiii in llie case, and i caiiind .inssver lite (|Uesli()ii. I iiil'er liial irnia|f ,Ni> J and iiiiip .\u 1 had laen pri,dueed, yiiii wiiiild have liiiindjiisl vnIi.iI villi did in Lucas' .\lias; iiiai in lite other maps Hie sepa- rate s\<,rds, '• The lii hiiii'; Sea ", are ;i,iveti. \\ ilh llial exceplion. Ihosi; are all Ihe .\meiic,in map-. Then, wlial is il llial yon are anked hy my learned I'rieiids lolind.'' II i-^ llial, in -ixin;,; a delinilioii lo Ihe \u,i\ H) Old id' 1 1 map- in lliissiu and hy !! -'ul (d'Kt map. in Ihe lililed Stales vsilh II vpiaiialioii lh;il I have j^iveli, ■.vltiidi show Ihal Ihe oinisviofis ill those .'! map-, one in llii--ia and L' in America, are lolally ineMiiseijiienl. .Now, jieiir i iiid, to im hide liiis, vmi miisl liiid lli.il il.is commonly emhiiic'd, Ih.d is lie' eom in-ioii rrotit tin' map-. Lei n- ;;o a liHIe I'lirlln'r. I need md say that I'taitce al Ihal day was iaiveiv Iln; hcad- ipiarler- orihi' hest ■;eo;:raplliea! -cieiire, ;ind Ihe hesi sci..||| ilir l,liowh'd;;c in the world: and il wn- s,, prominenl in diploinacv. llial Ihe I reiicji laii;;iia^e hei ■■ Iln laii;;iia;;e of diplomaiv. and il rciiiiiins -d lo Ihe presiMil day, milwilltsliindin;; lite vast increase in lite re^;ioit over wliicli the Ktii;lish iaii^n.t'je iv sjioken. .I'lanee coidaiiied ;;en;;ra- phers so ceiidiraleil Ihal Iheir iiaiiie- are known I. .eryhodv — llie iian.es of JSiiie, Lapie and .\iaile-liriin evei ii '■'' Mich little ;.'e(if.'rii- pliical allainmenls as I have air familiar with, „; I il is iiol, lo he. sup- po-ed Ihal edm aleil persinis, Oipio\nalis|s aiid liovernmimls were ifiuiiraiit (d Ihe ureal, coiitiihnlioiis that had heeii made li\ I'lam" lo Hie >cien' i of the (il o|^iMp|iv of the Wofld. 'I here are l.'il'renidi majis made lietweeii IKIK and l.S2;i, and all ^ive the separale names id' " Mer de lieliriiif; ' and " llassin dn Nurd " lo this Sea. Then, lo hriiifr il within their deli- nilion Ihal li'i,' i'acilic Occiiii ihais im |i;de Dehiiiij; Sea von wipe out al 2fl..l — '.'(ISi once I lie results of llie work oC llicsc inoii, who were IImmi llio |;rnnlosl, j;f(ij;rii|iliei'siii tlicsvorld hoyoiuldoiibl. WlielluM" liiev aro souow.niay he aiH)llier(|iicslion ; hiil those names were sii|)crioi' to that of any others, and France was taking the lead anionj; nations on the subject of diplomacy. Now , let us },'o to the Kuf^lisii Maps, not because Kn^latid was enf:;af;ed in these nej^otiations that I am now dealing with; but because we in Ame- rica, deriving our literature and language from the mother-country, are, of course, supposed to be, and it is fairly lo be inferred that we were, accpiainted at that day with the Kiiglish niapsand with other Kiiglish lite- rature and science ; and, of coui'se, wliiht |)crhaps in the eslimalion of the world they were not us high at that time as France, still they were of a very respectable character, — more so, of course, even in the esti- mation of the world than those of America, which were not as widely known. I^et us see what the Kiiglish maps were. When I speak of the maps that are referred to on boMi sides the Tri- bunal will, of course, understand that I mean maps published belwecn JHIH and [H'l'.i. I shall refer briefly at last to those maps that would not come within that li-l am! Ihe Hrili-li — Ihrec of lliem ai'e Iranslalions of maps thai I have dealt wilh before. .\nolher is a reprodiieljon ol'iine of Lapie's. Of course thai aMd^ iiolhing — we have deall wilh Ihal before — bul there are \2 thai are original in • iermany by dill'erent caiiograpliers — aiiiong them S(>veral geographei-s of res|ieclabililv and repnialion. In all these except two, the Sea of KamschalKa has a sepijale name, lo thai out nf 12, III (ierinan maps give a dill'erent de-ignalinn, the two e\ce|)lions arc in an atlas — both in the same — published in Weimar in IKK), which is probably acompilaliini, be sheets, with corrections to IHIH; incluiles llehring Sea, hut shows il us as a large, hlank, iinua- — 2087 — mod spaco, mid thcro is iiol u soparalc name. A large pari of |{oliring Spii is not inrliidcd. It, cuts oiraboiil lalitudo ()2". tie does not include in the Pacific Ocean llio Sea of Kamsclialka, otherwise lie would liav(! (ijiveu the whole sea, and not limited his chart to latitude (Vl". lie includ- ed the portion he did, hecause he found it necessary to take in that part of the Pacific Ocean now known as the (iulf of Alaska. .\ow the 8lh map, 181 1, in the Hritish Counter Case, a hy(lro},'rapliical chart of the world hy Arrowsmith, has llelirinj; Sea named the Sea of Kamscliatka, and the iN'orth Pacilic Ocean is j,'iven as a separate body of water. Thisiiiarksalltliewatcrsofllio};lohe,andisiiotconlincdto one sea, The *.)th ma|) in Mr Blaine's list is an .\rrowsmilh map of IKII, and Itehriiif; Sea is there nauKMl the Sea of Kamscliatka. The lOlh map i^ IHIH, of Arrowsmith, anti |{elirin{.; Sea is there named the Sea of Kamscliatka, and the North Paeitic Ocean, is separately specified. There is another map of 1818, a map of Asia hy .Vrrowsmitli of the same year, and Helirinfj; Sea is not named, lliou},'li a considerable part of tli(^ western side of it is included. The diU'erence with flie same f;eo{j;ra- plii!r is Ilia! one is a map of .\sia, and the other a hydrograpliical map, or the countries round the north pole. The I2tli ma|i by Arrowsmith includes the {greater part of HehrinfiSea. That is the map of 1822 and it is stated in the Itritish list as 1822, but it shows additions to I82:i, and it cannot have heen published till 1823. There is somctliufi very curious about that map. Hit can be supposed to liav(> bi.MMi before llic parties in thai nefjoliation. and there isnoe\i- deiicc that it was — my learned friend, Sir ItichardWVhslcr, infers il was not, and I infer it was not. Mr Justice Harlan. — Vou have references about that ; for in Sir C.liar- les ItajAol's letter to .Mr C.aniiiujj; ol Octohcrtlie I7lli, 1 82!$, lie speaks of a certain locality as laid down in Arrowsmith's last mc map of IH22 holorc him. " Is Ihal map in Ihi; raso; or ran il ho ^ut ' '. Mr Phelps. — No, that is Iho map liiat cannol he lonnd; it is not in the case. Those words are taken from the lit ie, and llie lit le is ohtainod from I do not know where. The President. — No copy is to ito lonnd? Mr Phelps. — We have not heen ahle to find any, und my learned friends say the same lliin^. The President. — Neither Sir C.iiarles Ita^'ol's copy, — no copy in tlie world? Mr Phelps. — No. Mow they },'ol the til Ic, 1 do not know. I infer, from tindin^ llie map referred lo in some hook of );eo^raphy, or some- liiinj; of Ihal sort. Mr Justice Harlan. — Tiie valne of il must depend on whether it was taken from something else. Lord Hannen. - - Il wonid come with the fresh edition with additions. Sir Charles Russell. — I nndersland hy referring to N" '.)S in llic .\ppendi\ to th(^ Counter Case, volnme I, that explains il ; and what I nn- dersland is, this was in fad at Ihe Urilish .Mnsenm, and il ptnports on the face of il lo i)e a map pnhlished ori^'inally in 1822, hut also on Ihe face of it i'ppear lo he fresh additions lo 182.'^, that is llu^ only map, and il did not involve! sceinj; separately the map of 1822 at all. Il was Ihe map of 1822 with further additions lo 1823 n|ion il. Mr Justice Harlan. — 't «as, llion. a map of I82:i? Sir Charles Russell. — It was a map of 1 823. Mr Justice Harlan. — ''"'l '» ""^ '" "'" ^"^'' '•' ♦ Sir Charles Russell. — That is referred lo in N" '.18. Mr Justice Harlan. — ''"l H'c map is not here? Sir Charles Russell. — .No, it is in Ihe lirilisli Museum. Mr Phelps. — The ohjcclion to Ihal is, we aie assured hy the Itritisli Mnsenm people Ihal it is iiol there. Sir Charles Russell. - No! Ihe ma|i of 182:5? Mr Phelps. - .No. With regard lo Ihis map of 1822 or 182:$. it was said, in response lo the enipiiry of oui'aj^eul whom we sent there, hy llu^ custodian of thai hraucli of Ihe Hrilish .Museum Ihal there was no such map there. Il is really of no imporlancc. We j^ive Ihis suhjocl more than il deserves. I agree with my learned fiituid, Sii- llichard W'ehsler, Ihis map coidd nol have heen before Ihese neiiolialions. The reference to .Ai'rowsmilh's last map is the last map ihal was pi'(d)alily llien in hand. Thai mi^lit ho eillu'i- one of those — Ihe liydrojjiraphic nia|>l have referred lo or the map of 1818 of tlu^ counlries nmnd the Norlli I'ole — possihly that of 181 1, two of which appear in Ihe case. That il is slill with refoj ■ enee lo the Krilish nef,M)tialions Ihal were a year later — aiul I now speak of the .\merican negotiations, and we will see when we come to Ihal im- 'J()!tO poi'liinl «iiu!s(ioii wlu'llior or iiol any new elemenl wiis iiilrodiicfid irilo this (l(-sci'i|)li()ii or soii;;;lil lo ho in llio iic^oliiilions lielwceii (insit Itrilain iiiitl America — it is plain llial nvIioii (ho Treaty of \H2\ vsas iicfjotialcd helvNccn Ureal lirilaio and llie I'liiled Stales, litis map conld iiol have heeii heHtro I hem, and there is no evidenee in the world to show I hat it was. I will consider later on whether it came too late and lifinred in tlie nej;olialions of the Treaty of 182."), which is a very dill'eriiiit (piestion — it is cnon},di I'or my purpose. There is no pretence that it was helore Mr.Vdams oi- M. (h; I'oletica or the Miissiaii Korcifjii Ol'lico — no prett^nce on the evidence that there was a rel'erence to it, and from its date it coidd not have !)een, esp(M'ially as comnmiiications at that time of tlu^ woild were much slower, of course, in };cttin}f sciiltei'tid to f()i'eij;n conulries than they are now and especially ahonl this then! was no possihie ohject or iudnccmeiit in thither country to refei- to it. There are some other earlier l']nf.flisli maps — C.ooK's Voyaf;es, in which there is a ditference, and one of llicni particularly that my learned friend seems to have overlooked — Lieid. ilol)cits', chart of 1808 piih- lisiied in London, in which lichrinfj; Sea apipcars as the Sea of Kamscliatka — the various maps of Cook's discoveries earlier than that, hel'ore tiie century commenced, all of them vary, and of course are merely maps to accompany his iiarticular discoveries, they are not geofjraphical maps or charts. Now let me put this rpiestion witii some def,Tcc of conliilcnce. Sup- pose it were necessary upon the evidence in this case, that is to say upon the maps, (or (Imm'c is no olliei' — (he authors of this ncf^otiation have Iftuj; passed away and have left hehind them no evidence of what was in their minds of wlial was said in these m-fiotiations evcepl these letters — suppose it were now necessary to decide this (luc'slion of whethei' Iteli- rin^ Sea was oi' was not included in (he lei-ni I'acitic (Icean in that Treaty i)y the maps, that is ail the evidence that there is. Lord Hannen. — Von say that is all the evidence, ^ou have not referred — prohahly yon are jioini; to - lo the treatises. Mr Phelps. — I was not inlcndiuf; (o refer (o a i)ody of j;aze(ecrs. ami what not. They are principally of a later dale. There are a few cited of a previous dale, hut they are very inferior (o the map for (he purpose of laving!; down (he divisions and sid)divisi()ns. It is not, as I tried lo explain liiis mortiinj; (he observation of a writei' or a speaker when his mind is not upon the point wiiich is in dispute. We all of us may use language generally one way or even the other when a particular ((ueslion is not in our mind. If I were to say thai I stepped olV the wharf at Italtimore into IIm; Atlantic Ocean, that would look as if I considered Chesapeake Itay as a |)arl of the Alanlic Ocean, when I might not he thinking of thai cpicstion at all. I merely slate a fact. Supixiw^e 1 had said, on the other haiul, I stepped oil the wharf at Maltiniore, into Chesapeake Itay, is that an assertion (hat C.liesapeaki! Hay is m)t a part uf the Atlantic Ocean? Neither of those observalions, if I were the grea- 5' — 20111 — lost f^no-jniplior of llic world, would \u\ of llic slif^lilosl imporliince, or (3vcn if I said llio one liiiii}{ )i<>sl(!nlii\ and tlio oIIkm' (o-day. II is li'iu? tlial I I'oiilradicl iiiysoU', ai;d my iiulliorily is prodiiccMJ on holli sides oi' llic qiioslion. Hut wlial is Hit! iiiiswcr lo il? Simply llial I was not on the point wlictiuM' (Mi(;sa|)(>ui\u Ituy consliliilcs paiiot'tlK; Atlantic or not, and I lio person I was adilressin^ did not want to know tliat. lint when I, Itoin;;; a };eoj,'rapli(M' of ai'l\nowledf,'ed anlhoril\, nndcr- lalvu, to lay down a map i'or puhlicalion, possihly ol'liciallv, certainly willi all tin; piesli^i- that I have, and open to IIm^ criticism of liie world as to its accnraey, then il shows what I tiu)U}j;hl. II may Uv. worth oidy little, or worth much; still it shows what I undi^slood; and so, in n'S|)ecl to llies(! ma|)S, men may writi; hooks, hecause in the making of hooks thei-e is, nidiappily, no end; hid. they may use };ein'i'al phraseolo^'y and this, that, or the (jther, which amounts lo nolhinf; either way. I could not rely lor a moment on casual expressions that ini^hl he aceumulaled on our side uf the conlention, ami I pay no regard to the few that hav(; heen hrou^hl tof^ellieron the oIImm' si(l(M)f the contention. \\'(; have not attempted lo do thai. If when the map is made and pnhiished lo the world and in- lentcd to he accurate — il is Hkmi \ou have to look, if yon valui! it, to iiseertain either Ihi! aullioi'italive speech of men, or the (!()mmoii umler- slandin^ of men. Kecause I need not repeal thai we all, who are not the sources of f,'eof;rapliieal knowledj^c, ^^ct our ideas on that suhjecl from the maps willi which we are familiar and when \ou pid lo an\ of ns a (pieslion on };eofii'aphy, and we re(|nir(! to answer il either' foi' luir own pui'poses or any bodv else's, wher'edo we p)'.' \\ hy, immediately to the maps. There is where you f:;et your aulhority; and it is only a man of oi'i- f^inal research in that direction that has any idea of what he deprives from the map. What idiui, I he};lo know, has either mendjer i;f this Trihunal. highly educated on all f^eneral suhjects, hut not perhaps so I'ai' as I hap- pen to know havinfi nivcn a special atliMdion to ^eof;rii|diical scienc(! — what knowled^'e has eithi'r j;i'ntleman whom I am addressiu;^ of the pro- per suhdivisions of the }i,eograpli\ of this world, excepl what he has got from maps, l)e>;inninK with the earliest maps which conveyed lo him the lirst idea of the contif;uration of the woi'ld, comiug down lhroui;li the inoi'e authorilalive maps — those oflicial. and priiu'ipal, and mor(! interesting ma|)s -- with which your iinesligation oi' studies havi- hroughl you. into connection. i\ow I repeal, was or was not that commonly called part of the I'aci- lie Ocean, and the answer to thai is that almost unanimously. I heline I have stated the number correctly — I have intended lo — all the aulho- I'ities of the maps are that way. The President. — l»o yon think il w(Mdd he easy to solve the ((uestion if il was put for lo-day ami not in IH:21 or IH'i.'l, whiitii"' two diplomatists using the word I'acilie Occum, and making an aiiidogous Treaty lo that \ou are speaking of, ''ntended lo include BeliringSea in llie term I'aeilic Ocean? 20 1 — 'J0!t-2 — Mr Phelps. — I Ity no iiicniis iiK-iiii In assoil lliiil il would. The President. - I tlo not Know wlii'llicr lo-diiy svc roiisiilcr lli'hriii^ SiNi as lii'iii^ pari or iiol pari ol' llii! I'acilic Droaii, and I Ixdiovu iiiosl. of m\ fellow (li|)lonialisls would sa\ IIk; same. Senator Morgan. — ll'voii sa\ "a rijjlil vcslcd in llio ocean commonly called Iho I'acilic Ocean ", il would lake a v(!ry astute mind lo li^'ure old the proposition thai yon did mean Itchrin^' Sea. The Pre8id6nt. — Or tlial you did not mean it. Mr Phelps. — I concur I liav(! not particularly cxamincil the later au- tlioritics. I have conlincd myselt to the period of time when this lan- \s,iM^c was used, and havti not pursued il, hul I readily conceive, if the queslion were to \n\ taken now il minhl he open to the same uncertainly, itut. Sir, what is llie result ol'lhal if, when accomplished and (jvperienced diplomatists, in hrinfiin;;- a lonj; ncf^olialion to an cud, were atlaihiuj; importance lo the inclusion of l!(;hrin{i; Sea as a part of Iho I'acilic Ocean is it conccivcahle that Ihey would not have said so? Is il conccivahlc? II is because, as I shall he ahic to point oul .' upon something heller than my suggestiuu, it was lolally inci)use(|ucnlial lo those countries, that Itehring Sea, slioidd hi; iix-linlcd, llial lli(>y oniilled lo use tin- lan- guaj^e which was niicessary lo include it; and il is I'oi' my learned friends, now, after the dust of 7() years has risen lUi the Iransaction, lo jjel up and say, " 'riiounh we did not say so, llioujili wc understood nehriui; Sea to he included, and thou};lit il was iniporlani thai il f-hould he included, now we arj;ue llial il can Ixs strained inside of the words" (lomnionly called Ihc I'acilic Ocean"'. Il is for th(! parly that seeks lo include within a grant a particular ter- ritory lo nuike il out. lie has the al'linnalive ol'Ihe proposition. When I have houfiht whitcacre hy descriplion and claim that il includes hlack- acre which the grantor denies, il is for me lo mak(! out thai in saying one tiling I meant another — that in saying whileacre I intended lo give Ihn d(\scriplion " including hiai'kacri! " or " hlackacrc also "; under Ihe cii'- cumslauces il was in smne way included. .Now to lake the initial dil'li- cully starting with the llrsl point. What does Ihc language of the Ti'ealy say ifil says auylhing.' What does Ihc descriplion in its fi'ir conslruc- lioii dealing I'aii'K willi language mean .' \\ lial was Ihc common (Icfnii- lion of Ihe I'acilic Ocean and whclher il included liehring Sea. I say llial on that threshold of Ihe suhject il is ulterly impossihle lo hriiig the descriplion within Ihe language. Vou may say if you please that it is amhiguous — thai I adniil, hul you eaniiol say that that language iiicludetl Ik'hring Sea, I respectfully submit, because Ihe vast majority of the evi- dence is the other way and the only escape from the coiiclusi(ui that Iteliring Sea was nol excluded from what is commonly called I'acilic Ocean is to say llierc wimc niaps and there were slalenienls Ihe other way, and Iherefore perhaps it is not quite conclusive that il was excluded. Ihilifyou have got to decide this (picstion if you have lo give a meaning lo the words ami slop there, " eouimoiily called", the only queslion is — i()!t:t — wliftllit'i" yoii shall ^o willi Ihe ovidonrn or n{j;ainsl il llio oiiK qiH'slion is wlii'ilii'i' Milt should nssiiiiin Ihiil Ihal <'(iiiiiii(inl\ calliMi Ilii> I'iiiiiic Oioaii ill iiiiii'-lciilhs (iC Ihe niaji-^ iiKliidin^ all llic aiillinrilalivc mirs is Ihc coin- inon a('i'o|ilali(iii, or wlu'lhiT vmi shall say llic coiiiiiioii acrciilalioii is Ilia! which is rcjuiliMi by Jliosi' inu|is and liy all \\\i' i^vidiMicf \vlii(!li hears ii|)Oii (he siilijccl. iNow, we shall liiid oiil prissciilly, as \m< pass aloiifj into lliis siiI)J, anibi- guous that upon the face id' the inslriiment uiii cannot assign a meaning lo il at all. They have employed language frnm whiidi you cannot tind out, looking at the language alone, whether this bodv of water was includ- ed or was not. Well, then, what is (be result upon fundanieiilal |)riii- ciples in Ihe construclioii of a c(.iiilracl. W hen the amhiguily is on the face of the iuslrunient, or when il is raised by exlriiisic evidence and lan- guage becomes ambiguous lhal appeared to bi' plain, — and let me say in passing none of these astute genllcmen could have possibly supposed Ihey had used plain language when Ihey said " commonly called Ihe I'acitie Ocean ", if they meant to extend il beyond aiiylbing except lhal undoubted bodv of water that everybody alwavs called the I'acilic Ocean, — if they me.Mil to carry it any fuither it is nol conceivable that they could have supposed they were using plain language, — but suppose it results in an ambigiiiiy. then you have to ascerlain the intention of Ihe parlies in Ihe languaiie i!' -y used. If il is found thai the language they used is consis- Iciii Willi either meaning, thai il may include iJehring Sea in the I'acilic or ■Jititt — il inav 111)1. lliPii \()ii liii\i> III ^I'l ill llio I'oiii'liisiiiii Imw did the |i!irlii|iiMli'ii. ^mi ioiilv al llio siiiijccl iiialliiil praclical (onslriirliiiii wiiicli llic |mrli('s llit'insolves have },'ivoii In llicir own laiif;iiaf;('. 'I'liosn arc llii' sdiiivos IVdUi svliicli, as all law vers iiii- (liTsland, von aiv In doiivo tli(> inoaninf; and inlrniion of' llic parlies as lo llic incaniiif; orainbii^nous plirascolo^'), in a contra 1. iNow let us apply thai for a ninmcnl to this case still conlininf; our- selves for a little while lo the American iie{;olialioiis as I have said and I oiiU allude lo il a^^ain now md lo repeat it — il was not this fiir-sea| business thai lliev wei'(^ (|narrellin}{, or I should md say (|iiarndlin^, hut dis|iiilin^ over, that was not llic point. II was, as I have pointed out, first lioiindary. and secondly the attempt to interfere with that occupation of the North West coast which the I'nilcd Slates people were hcfiinniii}; pro- litahly to have, and Mr Adams complains as I have pointed out on those two points — I he fur-seal is not named and IJelirinj; Sea is nol named hetwocu ltus>ia and l';e L'nited Slates. Then when Hie Treaty is drawn up and while it is hid'ore the Senate for ratitication the ilu^sian American Company taking friglil at the lan- f;iiaf;(' thus eiiiplovcd which they perct ive as any man must see whose attention is direclud to il miglil he vague, and was vague and miglil receive a dilVerenl conslrnction, — the Unssian Americiin Company whose inte- rests were involved, look fright and made a represenlalion lo the llussian (lovernmenl; yon are giving away and throwing open to llie United Stales of America our fur and other imliistrics in Itehring Sea. That awakened tlie attention of liussia lo tliefael thai the language cmphiyed in lliis Treaty miglil at soiiK! limo he claimed lo he liroader llian was meaiil — • a second case of using language unadvisedly, Itaron de Tuyll, the Itussian mi- nister, was instruclcd liy llic itussian (iovernmeiit lo do wlial? To go and recall that Treaty? 11 was nol loo late. Il was before llie Senate. II was not ratilicd. If the Senate passed il, il was still for liussia to decline llie ralilication, if il found it was going lo receive a conslruclion il did not ex|)ecl. Itid lliey recall il? .No. They go lo .Mr Adams, and point out the amhigiiitv thai might he supposed lo altach lo this language. Then did so and is there any douhl that he and his governmeiil won; act- ing ill perfect good failh in doing that? Was he uol going there lui a perfectly sincere and natural and proper errami to say lo Mr .\tlams, of course you do nol claim a i-onstruclion llial neither of us expected? How is he iiKd? How was he hound lo he met if tlie Iniled Stales claimed any such tiling? Did .Mr Adams says to him, " Sir, I am sur- jirised to hear llial having entered into a Trealy, Hie language of wliiidi is plain, yon are here now to inform us llial the Hnssian (iovernmenl does nol mean wlial it says, and thai, on signing a Trealy with us llial says one Hiiiig, yon notify us you are going to claim llial il means aiiolher — wm — lllill^ " .' Iliil .Ml' Viliiiiis ini'i'l liiiii l>y saying;, " Sir, vmi propoMi; lo liiki' Itnck iiiiii (il'lho very iin|H)rlatil piiints on wi'li \vi> aii! iiisisliii(; in lliis (lisciis-iioii. Now thai we liavc llic Tivalv voii |ii'()|Mist' Id rolt us ol" oni- 111' llii- priiiripal friiils of IIm- Ti'faly '• Tlial Mr Adams woiiM liavf said llial is plain cikiiij^'Ii, IiuI Ii > was liodiid In say il iiiili>ss he and his (iovoi'nnii'ut wciv in llie posilii.n ol' dislioiipst jorki'vs, alli'niplin^' l)v frand and iliiranory Id i>nliin^d(! a iialiDn vvilli whom lin>y \mmv in IViondiy irlalions, and just aitoul lo sign u Troaly, in an aj;iT('nu'nl whii-h they did nol nndiM'sland llu;y wiM'o mid\iii^. Thai is not to ho allrii)ntiMl lo any liovornincnt. Il is not to Ixi allrihnli'd lo any stahsman. Noillicr parly is open lo siirh a cliarnc as llial; only upon concinsivi' cvidenro would any person permit himsidf lo make snrh a charge as that against any sovereign power, or against any represetilalive ol'n sovereign power. Mr Adam meets thai by saying. There is no iioci'ssily I'nr sayinjf ii word aiioiil il. We ncvi'r liad aiiv idea o( gnin;.' up tlii'ri>. Why till yi)u sujipcsl to oiu' pooph' a IhouK'lit that comes Inr the llrsi lime Irom yun. Now, that is liie language of a gentleman who, w(\ are lold hy my learned IVienil, had been earel'iilly negotialing lo gel the very access lo these indnslrieslo which Itaron de Tuyll objects ami which he repuiliiitcs, and he says to Huron de Tuyll : ir yiiu raise llieso qucslions you will ad'ecl the ralillcaiinii of this Treaty. You vil! put ideas into the heads of one or auolher. You know a Treal.v has lo |)i> ralilii'd hy Iwo-tliirds ol' the Senate ol'llie I u!' • Slates. itai'on de 'rnyii sees liie sense ol' that, lie accepts il and permits Ihc Tr(>aty to be ratified by Itiissia and llien he liles this document which shows liie understanding of Ibe language which lUissia had, and il is (leeepled by the Iniled Slates' (iovernment wilhoiil reply. Now can there be anytliiiig that is more completely conclusive on llial point? Why imagine two individuals making a coulracl. I am making a contract with my friend on some important mailer. I nluekih there has crept iiitit the eoiitrael some language that may be ambiguous. .My I'riend comes lo me and says, " (H' course, you know our understand- ing. Von do nol mean to attribute such and such language lo this term in the eontract ". What am I bound lo say lo that? If I do insist upon il, I am bound to say so. I am bound to say, " Sir, I do not agrc-e wilh yon. I do nol understand it as you did. I do nol agree to your inler- |irelation of these amI)iguous words. I will lell yon what I nnderstaiid. Hill suppose I say, " Why my dear friend, there is no occasion lo inen- lioiithal, I never claimed any such thing as thai. Do not iiilerrnpl the evcciilion of this contract by any such foolishnijss. If you want to send nil', after the contract is executed, a paper showing exactly what yon understand by il. do so. " — '• Very well, " he says, and so in perfect good failh he signs the coulracl and iinmedialely sends me such a paper saying, in fad, " Vou understand, Sir, of course, in the language em- 5 — 209(i — braced in this coiilrucl, wliicli moans so and so ", and I accept il and (ile il away. I should like to know ii'ailcr that 1 were capahli' ofj^oin^ into a (loiirt of justice and claim iiifj a^'ainsl him in opposilion to that paper and in 0|tposili(Ui to this interview, il' I were capable of f,'oiu}i; and settiuf; n|> such a claim as Ihal against him, how I should be believed by any (,ourl of Justice that ever sal. I should be receive!iiiii; In retncul iln' ]n>\\'U (if ainily wliicli miili.' (Iiotii inid In sociu'u l)i'{wrru llii'iii III.; iuvariiilili' inainlpiuiin'O of a poi'fi'cl uouonrd. These words .is vou are well aware are;;eiu'rallv emidoved I'orTrealies of a very general ap|tlifalion. for Treaties which relate to all (he possible connections and relations lietween two dilforent naiions or Iwo dill'erent Slates. If this Trealy, and of course, I do iujI express \w^ view, I put Ihe point as it niighl be argued againsl you. applie> oul\ lo a (|ueslion of boundarv and uavigaliou and lishiiig. and so I'orlh along the coasi, or ii; IVoid of IhecoasI, Iheii do yonlliink llHywoidii use >uch a general I'xpres- sion as (his, " Wishing lo cemeiil (he bonds of andlv v\hich ui\ile IIumu, and lo secuie belween Iheni Ihe invariable mainlenance of a perfoc( con- cord ".'That is a very general cvprcssion for meridy a boundary Tnaly. Ifir Phelps. — It is. The e.xprcssion shows that Ihe Trealy is one of a general chai'acter. The President. — I should Ihiid* so. Mr Phelps. — lUil I should rcspedfully siibuii'. liiat those words do not enlarge Ihe specilic provisions of Ihe Trealv. .Now it will hr obser- ved that the condition of things then was \ cry diU'ereul from what ills now. T/tis was Hussia i|ioinling on Ihe map as well as t/iis. Uaska was then Uussia. All //li^ territory and coast, and a good deal more was claim- ed or had been claimed l)y Itussia up to lliat (ime, but in Ihe very sel- tlciucnt that they made l/iis was Uussia down on the one side until we gel — 'J008 — to near .liipaii, and M/v also was Kussia, so that iiiloriialioiiai relulion (lid not Ix'gin hotsvceii llicso two coiinlrios till you gel down to lliis oi" 4(1', or whatever may ho the disputed line. Now the Treaty was a good deal more than to settle that line. That was one object of it; and I (|uitc agree liiat such words might or might not he used. It depends a good deal on the I't-rtilily of tlioso who were wri- ting. If it had heen a mere boundary line, hut it was more than that; the whole counlry was new. and the right ol' olhcr counlries to make sellle- menls, and discovery and occupation was still open to dispute — Hussia's claims to come down as far as it did, were, as Mr Adams pointed out, only supjmrlcd hy some selllemenis — some very lew, sparse setllomenis — I hclieve (here was one at Archangel, which was (lie same as Silka, Mr Adams points oul, you have no longei- llie exclusive light of octui- palion and discovery which might have heen open at thai lime lo lonsi- derahle dispute, and all on Hie slivnglh of one little settlement at .Archan- gel. And you will perceive in this .Mr Adams lakes occasion lo deny, wlicllier lliey meant lo insist on it or nol, hut as a pari of his argiimeiil, and lo show Itussia their claims were not so well eslahlishcd — lie points out, " If you choose lo gel inio a dehati; on llie siihjecj of Ikiw far Itussia has the exclusive dominion over all this (erritmy U|i Ihere, hy right of possession and occupalioii, there are two sides lo lliat cpiesiioii, and we may have somelhing lo say upon ilial "', now, it is all that llial is set- tled here. There is, as I said, a grant on each siile to the oilier of Id \ears, a right lo \isit and trade willi llu! selllements of llie other, and il musl he plain that lliese general words of IVicndsliip caiinol conirol those terms which fix the houiidary. Senator Morgan. — This was the tiist Treaty helween the I'liiled Stales and Ih.ssia of any kind? Mr Pheips. — Yes. Senator Morgan. — II was naliiral lliat llierc should have heen an expression lo cai'li oilier of a cordial stale of feeling. The President. — Ves. I (jiiile adiiiil lliat. Mr Phelps. — This general language does nol help voii in deleriiiiiiiiig the meaning of Aiiiclc I whether llehriiig Sea was or was nol included in the term I'acilic Occiiii. You gel no light from Hie preamhle, hecaiise il is e(|uall\ a|)plicahle and proper in either case. Il does not help us lo excluih; Itehring Sea ; il docs not help us lo include il, and when you come lo ,\rlicle V you will nolice that il is a limilatioii on Article IN, which grants this Id years mutual right. It savs all spitiluous liijuors, iire- aiins, oilier arms, powder, munitions of war of every kind are always excepted from this same commerce permilled hy the preceding .\rticle, that is Artii'le IV. II is onU saying as an appendix lo Article IV, \oii have this trade, hut it is siilijecl to the restrielion as to the sale of spiriliioiis lii|iioi's, tirearms powder and lliat iiiighl he used against ttie liovernmeiil in case of ail insurrection or tidiihle with the iiali\es and the two powers un^ii^od. Votiwill Hnd, I think, on leading tlinlliirongli it only rcguliilcs the extent of the commerce that is to take place, in Article IV. It does not extend ttie terms of the Treaty, and you arc still referred back to the question whether the provisions of this Treaty, I mean the provisions that give the territorial limits, do or do not include Behring Sea. Now, Sir, as I have reached the point ol considering the Hritisli nego- tiations, perhaps you will think it better to adjourn before that is taken up. The President. — Ves. [The Tribunal there adjourned until Tuesday, the ilh July, at 11.30.] 3nH FOUTY-.MNTII DAY. .ILLY 'F", 18U3. Mr Phelps. — 1 nocd linrdly say, Sir, llial I (iiul il qnilo us (lil'liciill lo spoiili il) weather wliiili is so opprossivo as the Tribunal imisl to listen; and it' yoii perceive, Sir, as I do liiat I am lakiiig twice llie ordinary lime lo mal\e my propositions lialf as clear as Uicn oujtiil lo l)e made, I iiog MJU will remember that it is in some measure my misl'orlune and not allop'lher my i'aiilt. The President. — We never perceive llial you do not make your pro- positions (iiiite clear. Mr I'lielps. Mr Phelps. — Ycsterdax. Sir, I was enjiaj^ed in discussiuj; this much discussed question of llie assertion and occupation of lUissia from Ihe lime of the discovery of the Islands 7, and specially relating to llie period of lime embraced between the promulgation hy Itussia of the Ikaseof IH2I anil the conclusion between the tlii-ee (iovcrnments respeclively of the Trealios of [H'2i and IS^.'i: and I had endeavored lo point out that, so fai' as this case is coni-crned. so far as the (piestions thai are maleriid here go. the whole enquiry embraced in two or three questions in the Treaty results after all in determining whether in tlie language of those Treaties, and the language il will be rcmcndtered is the same in both Treaties, that Kehriiig Sea was or was not included undei' the term •' I'acitic Ocean "; because as I tried to jioinl out there is no interruption whatever to the exclusive assertion and occupation of Ihissia so far as the fur-seal business is coMproaching Ihe consideration oflhe Hritish Treat) Suppose, Sir, that all IhiMlistingnished geographers who were then living had been called at that lime as wilaesses ■- iioi — in a Coiiil of .luslice on the qnestion of wliollicr (ho Hchrinft Son was romprised williin wliiil is commonly called the I'aoilie Ocean, — in olhcr words, suppose (his conlrovei's\ had (ul\cn place immedialely, — (hat (his question had ariscv Immediately iifler the conclusion of (hose Treaties and this Trihunal, or some Tribunal, had been char^red with delermininj; the very question that is submitted here (o-day, and suppose all (hose cniinen( };co};rapliers, all men then li\ing, whose opinions would have been regarded as entitled to any general, and above ail lo any interna- tional respee(, had been called as wilncsses befon; (be Tribunal and the question had been put lo them as experts in the science of geograpliy, " What do you unders(and by (be words that are here used " .'wiiat would have been the answer? You will (ind (he answer in tiii- maps that those men bad published and did publish where i( became necessary (o put down the answer lo (bat (pies(ion on (he face of the map. Is there any doubt that every one of these witnesses would have given (o (his language the consduetion that we contend for? Now talking leave of (he American Trea(y and having seen. 1 (iiiiik very clearly, that whatever the term " (lommonly called I'acilic Ocean '' means it was understood by lliissia and understood by Amerir-a as excluding Uehring Sea and these industries or trades or whatever there was there. How s(an T'l. I( is a letler froai Mr fioorge Canning ol [instruclions lo .Mr Siralford Can- ning : I'eiliaps till' •.iinplosl cnursi' alli'i-all will ii;? lo subslitulc, lor all Ilial pari ol'llii' jiiui/rl ami CDUiilcr pi'djol wliicli iclali's In niaiiliiiic' li.iilils ami lo iiaviiialioii, liic liisl Iwo Arlicli';; ol'tlio ('.onvcMilioa already coiuIikIciI liy the (loini of SI. I'l'ti'i-;- hiirj: with the U liliMJ Slab's of .\Mici'ii'a, in llie order in wliirli lliey stand in thai Convcnlion. Ilussia cannot mcin to fiivc to the I'nitod Slates of .Vineiiia what she wilhholils from lis; nor to wdlihohl from iis anvlhiiij.' that sin^ has coiisenled to f.'ivc to the Unilod Slates. 'I'he nnifoiiiiily of : lipiilatioiis in pmi mnt''riii liIms elisiniess anil fon'e lo holh ariaii^'eincnts, anil \\\\\ eslaldish that loolint; of ei|iialilv lietweeii lh<' >evi'i'.d nin- liai'tiiif? parlies wliicli it is innsl desiralde dioiild exisi ImIwi'Oii lliree I'oweis whose inlcresi come so ncnrly in conlael with each oilier mi a parloflhe ^lohe in which no olhor power is concenieil. — -iKii — This llioi'cl'oro is wIkiI I aiu In iiislnirt ycni to pi-npusi' al iniru to lliu Itussiaii Miiiialrras riiltiiii; slinrl an nlherwisi' iiicoiivciiit.Mil dix-.ussion. Siibseqiipnl corrcspoiulfinco shows itf courso lliiil Mr Slralford Ciin- niiig in pursunnce of the inslriiclions did cxiiclly whal lu' was iiislriicicd to do, llinl is to say lie proposed lo the Hiissian (iovornmcnl to cut siiorl a discussion llial I shall ruler to in a nioinonl, hy ad(>|)tin^' lielwccn Itiissia and (ireat Itrilain what had hecn adopted hy the United Slates, and (Ireat lirilain. Now if that is llic ease, in adopting' these provisions they adopted them as they were understood and intcniird hy the parties. In adopting; the langna},'e Ihcy adopt the eonslruclion, and if it is found — I observe that Lord liannen appears to dissent IVoni that proposition — Lord Hannen. — Well, (o put it very clearly, I will not assume that it is so, hut suppose il were clear that the Hussian (iovernment had led the Knglish (iovernment to think that they put the same construction on the lauf^nage of the first clause of the Treaty as the Knglish now contend for, you would not then he able to say they were hound hy llw construc- tion that was understood h\ the I'niled Slates. Mr Phelps. — No, Sir, that would state an entirely dillerent case, hut I think I shall he able to point out iirescnily from the correspondence that, so far from Itussia sellin;; up lo (ireat Itrilain a dilVcrent eonslruc- lion of this lan^iia^c from wiiat had ohIaiiiiMl between Itussia and the I'nitijd States, il was exactly (he other way, and liial (ireat Itrilain tlid understand distinctly tiiatthc construction oflhal language did not include Itchrinfj Sea. When I slated the proposition tiiat in adopliu}^ hy a};ree- nienl not merely the lan({uag;e thai had been employed by the two other countries they adopted the eonslruclion, lliat is lo say they adopted what (he afjreement mean! between tiie parlies, of course, in the absence of specific proof lo rebul that by snowinj; the contrary. .\n\ presumption of llial sorl or an\ inference of that sort is open lo he rei)ulled, but in Ihe absence of rebultiuf; facts I umicrsland llial il would not be (lossible lo contend that where a contract has been made l)etween Iwo parlies and a third parly agrees witli one of those conlractiu}; pailies, " I will lake exacllv the contraci that \ou have given lo tiie other man; " then, in ado|ilinj; the provisions he docs nol adopi il M|)on Ihe eonslruclion which flic law would give il as between those two parlies, and if lliat con- struction lurned oid lo depend nol so much on Ihe language as on (he understanding why (hen he has adopted the underslanding. ItuI there is a correspondence on this subject that seems lo me lo make Ibis per- fectly clear. In (be progress of this negoliation between (ireal Itrilain and Hussia, Mr ('.aiming Ihe Foreign Minister, sent lo Sir Charles Itagot who was then tln! .Vmbassador al SI. Petersburg a proposed draft of this Treaty, and it will he found on page (i.'t of Ihe second Volume of Ihe .Appendix (o the Itrilish Case; and I invite your atlenlion particularly lo this language. — 2103 — Mr Justice Harlan. — Senl by wlioin? Hr Phelps. — lly MrfJoorjio r.uiiniii},', Sccrclary of Slalo lor l''nn'i{!;ii All'air.s lo His Majt-sly's Miiiislcr al SI. I'elcrshiir^', Sir Cliarlos Ita^'ol. He ondosnd this as (iroal Urilaiii's proposal, and llic flrsl .Vrliclc reads in lliis way. It is a);i(M!(l liclwct'ii liic liifrli conlriiclitif; I'lirlics lliul (liclr ri'spcclivi' siilijrcis sliull <'iijoy llic I'i^'hl of I'reo niivigiiliDii aJDiif,' IIh' wIidIc i'xIimi( of IIk^ I'acilic Occiiii, (■inniiri'lic'iiiliii},' llio scu williiii Bi'liriii^'"s Slraits, 'I'liere are liie words wiiicli |iul lliis ainl)if!;uit\ out ol' IIh^ (|iicslion. Tliorc are Hie words llial, as I lemarked veslcrday, il is iiicoiiccivaidt; sliould not have been inserled iril wus intended l)y llic parlies lo include Midi I'in;; Sea, and mil leave llic whole Trcaly upon lan^'iia};<> so anilii^iious and (lonhirul, lo say llic leasl, as lliey (unployed. Thai shosvs Ihal llic allenlion of llic Foreign Minisler and of llie ncgolialors on llic pari of Greal Hrilain was drawn to this poini, thai il ociMirred lo llicin more words were necessary. Then " coninionly called the PaciRe Ocean" was pro- posed lo lUissia as if il was inlendiul lo make this clear. Now from lliissia we };el what you will find in paj^e (IS, a comiler- draft. They cannot accept (ireal Hrilaiii's proposal entirely, and they senl on their own side ii proposal, and you will see thai Article 1st in the Mritish proposal becomes Article V in llie Ittissian pr(i|)osal, and il will be loiiiul al the holloin of pajjc (iU in llic ori}i,inal ['"nuicli. It is not trans- lated in this co|)y : — 'i'liQ lligii CuntraRtin^' Parties stipulali' nu bohalf of llioir losjicctivi! siiitjiicis lliat Irci! iiaviiratioii civeraii. That is understood. — LordHannen. — " Tiironf,'houl llic whole exlcnl ". Mr Phelps. — " Throu};lionl the wliolecxtenl, as well norlii as soulh", and so on, and Ihe words " coinprchendinfj; IJchriiif,' Sea" or aii\ similar words arc omitted. Sir Charles Russell. — " And Ihal llicy will enjoy the right of lishing in the liigii sea". Mr Phelps. — " And Ihal Ihcy will enjoy the right of lisiiiiig iti the high sea", and so forth. Hull speak of Ihe omission in Ihal slalcmciil of the words contained in the Hrilish proposal. That would have set this question ill rest. In oilier words, .Article \' is siihslanliallv the same as Article Isl of llie Hrilish coiilcntion. Sir Charles Russell. — Would you read Article VI — of the right lo navigate Hehring Straits. Mr Phelps. — I will read thai. The President. — How do yon construe these words, .Mr Phelps — " as well in the north as in the south '? Where do you put the norlh and soulh as of interest between Hussia and Kngland? — 2101 _ Mr Phelps. — Tlial is only iiilrodiirin}; anollu'r ainliifiiiily. Tlitd that question and determined it. The Itiissians declined lo accept it, and left them out. That is the point. Lord Hannen. — Hut Sir Charles, siij;j;eslion, Mr Phelps, is thai Ihe words are e(|uivaleiil. \oii will have lo deal with that. Mr Phelps. — We will consider llial |)resenll\. Why, if llussia meant lo include Itelirinj; Sea, ilid she strike them out? What reason can bo }{iveii for striking out from the draft of llie Treaty those plain words which, upon the theory of my learned friend, both parlies under- stood to be there? Why employ eipiivaleni words unless you can employ bt^tler ones? \\ by sup|)ly the place of those plain words with the ambiguous words lo which the President just now alluded — " north and south ". Think — if Ihe Pacilic Ocean goes on north, you are jiisl as far away as you were before. If must be as you suggested — because the Hussians , from the llaron deTiiyll's coiiimunication to Mr Adams that Ihey were throwing open Ihe fur seal piirsiiils of Itehring Sea lo countries that did not ask for i. "in. We see plainly that Itussia did not so undersland il, and thai we see how il was they strike oul these plain winds and substitute words which are nol equivalent lo litem, — aiiis — because llioy do nol add aiijlliiiig lo wlinl wns llicrt! hcforc To add io llie lerin " comuinid y called I'acilic Ocean " " as well noitli as soiilli " adds nothing; as far as (niielies (liis poinl. Senator Morgan. — is il shown anywhere, Mr l'liel|»s, which was Ih-sl suhniillcd? Mr Phelps. — Cerlainly, Sir; the nrilish was first stihinillud, and (he lUissiaii you will renienihcr was (he mnirc-iwojvl. Now, (he attendon of Ihe Hritish was called to (his; and you will per- ceive that il was crilicised siihsequcnllN in one of these letters which will he found (tn pa^e I'l of Kecemher the 8tli from (icorp- C.annin}; (o Strat- ford (laniiiiij^. Ili> crilicisfis this tnnln'-funjel , and Ik; complains thai Arlicic I in his //nyV/ is made Article IV in the Uussian citntrc-pntjvl \ and he says in regard to (hat : Ydii will ohsci'vc ill liio llisl placi' lliat il is iiiu|hjsi'(I liy llii' lliissiiiii riciiipo- lciitiiiri(?s riiliriilv lu cliaii^,'!' lliul ordur, ami In Iransrei' In lln^ lallcr part nl' llio iii>tniiiiriil llic Arliclr wiiicli has liillii'iin slond lirsl in llicyovi/V/. Tij llial tiaiis|i(isili(jii wi- caiiiHil agree, fur IIkj very reason which r.Diiiil Nessol- roili' alle^tes in favour of il, naiiioly, llial llio ciimnmif or arraii^'eiirjnl of (hi! 'I'rcaly uiighl lo have relnrence lo Hie history of nesolialioii. The wliold ne^rolialion ^.-rows mil of IIio llkasi! of IS-.M. So eiiliri'ly anil ahsolnlely true is this proposition thai Hie setlleiiieni orilK^ liniits of Hie respeelivi' possi'ssioiis of (ireal lliitaiii ami lliissia on Ihe norlh-wesl coasl of Anieriea was proposed liy us only as a mode of laeilitaliiif; Ihe adjnsliiienl of the dilfereiiee arisin;,' from the Uknsc hy enahling Ihe l^otirl of llussia, under cover of Ihe more comprehensive arraiiffcmeiil, lo willidraw willi less appi'aranre of concession, the olfensivi! prcleiisions of that edict ; and he continues (o Ihe same elVecl. Sir Charles Russell. — i shoidd he glad if \oii will read the next passage. Mr Phelps. — I will certainly. II is comparatively indilferent lo iis whidher we hasten or posip all (|ueslioas respectiii(.' tin' limits of lenilorial possession on llin (lontiiuHil of Anieriea, litil thii prelensiiiiis (d' Ihe Uussian I Kase (d' Isil to eMlii^ive doiiiiiiinn over Hie I'acilic could nol couliniu' longer iiiirepea"d willioiil i-oinpcllin^r us lo lake some measure of puhlie and eU'ei'lu.il reinonsliaiK i' a^aiiisl il. You will Iherefori' lake eaie, in Hie lirsl inslance, lo repress any allempl lo \i\\i', this chaiif;eto Ihe character id Hie nev'olialioii, and will declare wilhoiil reserve thill the point to which alone Hie snliiilude id' the Itrilish (iovernmcnt and the jea- lousy of Ihe llrilish nation allaili any luteal imporlanre is Ihe dnint: away in a manner as little disa.iireeahli! to llussia as pussilil f Hh' elfecl of the Ukase of IH2I. Thai this Ukase is not acted upon, and Ihal inslriielions havi' heeii Imi;; a^o sent hy the Uussian (iovernmeiil to their cruisers in the I'acilic to susiiend Ihe execution of its provisions, is Irne; hut a [irivate disavowal of a puhli«hed claim is no security afiainst the revival of Ihal idaim. The suspension of the exeeiilioii of a prineiphi may he perfectly coinpalilde with Hie conliniii'd maintenance of Ihe priiiei|de ilsidf. and when we have seen in Hie luui'se ol Ihls iie.uoli.iliiiii Ihal Ihe llll-^lall elaiiii lo Ihe piisM>sion of the eoa-l of America down to laliliide .'iM resis in fail on no nllni' ground llian the presumed acipiicsceiice of Hie nations uf Kurope in the provi>ioiis of an Ukase published hy the l^iiipurur I'aul in Ihe year 18U0, ngainsl which il is — ilOfi — uriiiiiiiMl llial iio |iiililic ri;iiiciiistraiu'i< was iiitiili', il hct'DiiiuH us In lio ()\( Iiii}.'ly rarrrul lliiit we do iml, liy a similar im'^'IimI mi liii! itrcsonl nciMsinii, allow a similar pn'siiin|iliiiii Id hi' raised as In an aciiiiii'sccnci' in llic llkasi- of Is-il, Till' ii>:lil uniii' suliji'i'ls of His Majrsly In navijiali' fn'i'l> in Ilii- I'arilic raniiol b(! Iii'lil as malli'ml iiiilulj.a'ni'i>rriini any I'uwur. Having' oiici' bi'un |iul)lii'ly ijuos- lioni'il. il ninsi lii> |iul)lirly acknowloflp'il. The President. — Mow wttiilil yjii coiislme in the moiiijiiin of Mr (ieoi'jti! r,amiinf; llicsc woitls; — "The rifjlil of tlif siihjccis of His .Maji'sly lo navigiilc fivcU in tlio I'iicilic?" How do yoii believe Mr (".iiii- niii}; iimlorslood llie word " I'acilic "? Mr Phelps. — I imdorsiu:>d llie word " I'acilic " lliero moans just \>lia( it means in (lie Treaty. The President. — .Not Heliri.ig Sea? Mr Phelps. — llelinng Sen for n certain |)nr|)0se, which I shnJi point out directly, was made of importance in siiliscqneiil noj^otiations, — Ihe ri;;iit lo navif,'ale through Itehring Sea iiiKiiiestionubly, itecaiise Ihal is specially spoken of in the correspondence liial if vessels ('aiiiiol pass through Hciiring Straits no further discoveries in liic .Norlli could be made. The gate is shul to thi; wholed world, and the right lo pass (hrough Itehring Straits is spoken of; and il is immediately met by an assurance on the part of Itussia Ihal they bad no intention whatever of closing up Itehring Straits. Lord Hannen. — Thai had been already the subject of negolialion. because yuu see Ihe allusion in Ihe passage is Ihis : — l''or reasons ul' I lie same ualurc we eannnl conseni Ihal Hie liherly of navigation IhroUKh Uehring's SIrails should he slalcd in Ihe Trcaly as a boon from llussiu. Mr Phelps. Yes, I sci>. II eannnl he ilnnliled Ihal Iho Americans consider Ihcmsolvus as secured in Ihe rij-'hl of uavi^'alin;.' Delirin^:'s SIrails and Iho sea heynnd lliem. I am obliged lo your Lordship for calling allenlion lo il. Thai was Unqueslionahlv understood. Lord Hannen. — ItuI under what words was it stipulated ttr agreed in any way that Ihe .Vnicricans should have the right of navigating Itehring SIrails and Ihe sea beyond? Mr Phelps. — Vou will see il in .Mr Stratford Canning's letter, on page H(l. Lord Hannen. — Itui I mean what words of Ihe Treaty carry it? Mr Phelps. — Il will come in under Ibis .\rtiele we have been dis- cussing ill Ihe American Treaty, -Article I. Lord Hannen. — That is, under Ihe term " I'acilic Ocean ". Mr Phelps. — I'nder Ihe lerm " I'acilic Ocean ". Sir Charles Russell. — Fishing and uavigalion. Mr Phelps. — Itiil as controlled by Ibe other language. Il is one Ihiiigto concede the right of navigating and, if you please, lisbing through Ihe Itehring Sea and Ihrougb Ibc Itehring SIrails which was never in — -ilt)? — ili>|Mil(! hclxM'cii Ihe |iarlifs; il is aiiotlicr lliiiif; l(), in liis leller c.r llie I "III 111' Keliruary, IHli.") : — Willi ri'S|ii'cl lo |: liiiiif:'- SliaiN, I am happy lo have it in iiiv power to asMire yon, iii< till' joint iiniiiorily o|' lln' Ilii<.iaii I'lenipoliMiliaries, thai tlie Kinpei'oi ol lli:.'>*iii has iio iiileiilion \\hali\er of maiiilaiiiiiif; any exelnsivc riaiiii lo Ihe iia\i- i;alion of lliosi' straits, or of the si'iis to tin' noilli of llniii. II caiiiioi hi' neci'ssai'v, iiiuler these eiiiiinislariees, to linnlile you willi a more jiartieniar arcoMiil ol llu' si'Vir.-il eonh'ieiiies wliich 1 liave held w ilh tlie Itus-ian I'leiiipolenliaries; and il is liiil Jn^tiei' |o >lnli' thai I havi' I'oMn I them ilisposeil. lhroiij.'hoiil this lalli'r sla>;i' ol' the ne^olialioii. to tribal tlie iiial* uinler di>en>siiin with fairness anil lilieralilv. Tlieif is aiKdlier Icdler soincwliero in wliicdi Iliis is rid'errod In; and in rcpK In a leller wliiidi vuii will reineinln'r was wrillen In iinc id' Ihe l!rili>li .\c;{olial(irs, Unssia replies Ihal Ihey had im idea wiialever, jnsl as Mr ('.anniiif; sa\s was repeali'd In him, id' inlerrnpliii},' Ihe naxi^alinii lhroii;;li llohrin^ Sirails. LordHannen. — Thev had al niiiliniean iilenol'doiii^ so, and said it was a new propnsal, Ihey did al one lime lliink of dispiiliiif; il. Mr Phelps. — Well, Ihey snhseipieiillv withdrew I'rom llial, hoeanso Ihey said llii>\ iii>\ei' had any inlentinii id' dispnlin^ il. Now, Ihe diU'erenee helween Ihe rij;lil under Ihe lerms nl' Iliis liisl Arliide, in re|dy In Ihe ipieslinn llial vnii put jiisl imw llic diHei'enee helween eoneediiif; wind was never denied, the rijihl nl' nee navijialinii llirnnj;h liehriiii: Sea and whieli eniild iml he diMiied unless Ihey inlended to make il a elnsed sea, Ihe diU'ei'enei; helween eniieodin^ llial anil enii- eediiifi all llial is j;iveii mider Ihe lirsl Arlieli- is very plain, heeanse il means Ihe dilVeronee with rei;ard In Ihe ell'eel of llial parlieiihir Ailieic with ivrcivneo lo the indnslry or liiisiness with whieli we are iinw I hailed. Lord Hannen. — The passafje I was rel'errinii lo will he lomid al paifo (»(i, where il is said : — " .\s to Hie clause of tin' same proji'l " filial is a letter from lloiiiit l.iovenl ■• haviiii; for its ohjml lo ensure lu Kiif;lisli vessels Hie free entry into tlio lev Sr.i hy the Sirails ol llehriiii.'. it seems, in Ihe lirst jilace, thai thai eunditiuii, which is entirely new, is liy ils nature foreii;n to the siiccial oliject of the ni'goliation ". They did not in Ihe lirsl place yield that, hut yiehled il in eniisc- (|iienee of I'liiiher nefiolialions; ami llien Ihe (|uestioii is, on what lerms did Ihey yield il, and wlial was Ihe ell'eel of Ihe lerms nil whi(di Ihey yielded il .' Mr Phelps. - - Slill, Ihe I'oree ol' Ihe ohservalioii llial I have made does nol appear lu me, I rcspeetl'iilly submit, lo hu al all diminishod. it is plain that the ri;^ht tu navigate tliruugh and gu lliruu^di the Ltelirin^ Straits ■itib — ilOH — \vii> imliii (lis|iiili>. nil was in Hit' lirsl |»li»('n, w Kiinni-sltnl hy his Lonl- sliip, lliiil was 4|i(M>(lily aliaiidoiii'd hy lliissia. who look Ihit ^'niiinil Ihal lhf> iii'viT had iiil(Miih>d In deny il, and Ihcy did iiol diMiy il ; and Mr Sirairiii'il Canning' wrilus In; is ha|)|)\ In In! asMiicd 1)^ idl ol Ihi'ui llial llh'ir is nil i|n(islitin on Ihal |Miint. \\('ll, Ihi'ii on Ihi; (|(i('sliiin wliclhcr lin- lisliin^' in llrhrin}; Sea was iihdndnl, Ihi' ilt'ilish, I rfjioal, |in>|ii)si'd worvls Ihal wonid have scl Ihiil al rc-l. ir lliissia nioani lo assent In Ihal, why sliiki; onl Ihu words. She ^'avc iioullicr reason whalever. .None can heconjeelnred, Thei'e caiinol lie an ohjeelion lo nsin^ those woi'iU Dial .Mr r.annin;.: had |iul in Ihis lirsl |ii'ojel. unless it islhalliiev did no| mean lo eoneede so innih as ihal. Then yon see Ihal the Itrilish (ioverniiK^nl, aflerlhose words areslriel»- eii out. and Ihc aiiihi^noiis lan^niifie ol' llie present Treaty iMiijiloynd, werejaxin^ stress n|ion liie very position in tin; Treaty which this as- snnies, and calling allention to the tad that ils iinportance and proiiii- nencu is diniiiiished hy heini; at Hie end ol'theTiealN itislead of al the iie^finiiin^' which is a very proper sii}i};oslion , and while Itnssia accedes lu llial sii}.'^'estion, and I'cstoi-es tin; article to ils position in the Treaty which lireat Itritaiii dt'sired il to occnpv, and conceded ils inipoitance, nevertheless liiey declined to insert Hie words Ihal wonid have put Ihis heyond dispute and lireal Itrilain ac(|niesceii in a drat'l of liieTrealy Ihal did not contain Iheni. Ihiw came thev lo do so, iiecaiise the point llial tlicy wci'e lahonriii}; upon. Ilic rif;lit of fiee iiava^atioii as the primarv ipieslion and tlie buiindary iini; as Hie secondary ipn'stion , wen; e(|iially coiicedeil hy the hni^nap' of lliissia and is explained h\ what is said hv Mr ('.aiming. Then in Mr .Vddin^tons letter wiiich will he found on pa^e lit) of the same hook as late as Atij^nsl 2nd \H'2\. " .\ coineiitioii concluded hetween this (iovernn.'iil " — that is wiitiiif; from \\ashiii;;ton and the words ' Ihis (ioveriiment means the I nited Slates — .V cdiivcnliiiii iniM'huli'il lu'lwecn llii-; (Icivcnmieiil ami llial cil |{ii<^iii I'm' Ilic Nclllciucnl 1)1' till' res)i(!ctive I'lairns ol' llie hvo riatiiins to Hut iiilercniiisc willi 111!' iiDiili-wcslcni cnasl of .Xinciica rciiclu'il Die l»e|iailiiiciil nl' Slale a lew (lavs >ilice. Till' main iininls ilclorniiiii'il liv this iii»li'niiuMil aie, a> I'ar as I ran cullt'cl riniii Ilic Aiiicricaii Sccic'larv ol' Slalc. I lli.MMijnyiiiciil (iT a Irci' anil iiiiri'sliiclcil inlci- ciiiirsi' liy each natinn willi all Ilic srillciiiciils ol' Ihc ullicr on Ihc iiorlli-wcsl ciia-il oT America .mil ii a sliiiiilalioii Dial no new sulllcmoiils shall he I'ormi'il hy llassia. soalh, or hy llii; Unilcil Slales, iioilli, ol'laliliidi' .SI" }0'. Thai is Ihc sumniarx of this Treaty as derived hy Mr Addingloii from .Mr .\dams. The iincsliuii of Ihc iiiiiiv flniiuiin. Ihc sovc|cij;iily iiwr wliiih was asscili'il hy Ihc r.m|iL'ror i>l' lliissia in his celchralcil Ukase ol' IS-Jl, hnl viiliially, if not cxjircssly, lenouiiceil hy a subsci|ii(!nl ilci-laialion of Ihal Sovereign, has, Mr .\ilaiiis assures me, not liPeii loiicheil il|ioii in Iho ahove-iiicnlioiied Trcaly. Niil lir'on Iniirhcd iipoii you scr. NOsn thai is proiisrlN wlial I sun. This asscrliim wliicli llicy rend and |HMlia|)s Ihc laiifiiiap- — inilt'od, iiiidiiiil)t('dl\ llii- lan^iia^'i', iiiilliori/iMl llii>iii In read il as an alli>Mi|il lo I'M'i'cisc an I'xclnsivc si>voi'i'i<;nly umt Itcliiin}; Sea and In slinl il ii|i and |)i'i'('ludt> navi^aliini, and Ihci'i'l'iin' Ihc allonipl lo shul n|i Ihi' Iti-hiin^ Sirails, of conrsc, was cdiiiiduli'ly ahan(h)rn'd, was so willidi'assri, was so t'\|ilaini'd awav as sonn>lhi.i}{ iiol inicnih-d lo lie asscilod, ami ci'i lainK no( inlciv'iv! lo he onl'orctsd, and never had hei-n alliMnphMl lo be cnrn'ccd nl all — (hose parlies wer.M'onlenl lo iel llie mallei' drop, and, as in I'.'o lei. lers llial I read yon yeslerday, Mr Cunnin;; iiislruels llie Minisli;r \\\ SI. I'lilershurg. Wi' (1(1 iKil w'jinl lo insist ii|i(in atiylliiii).' tliul liiiinilialcs Itns-.ia Ity ealliiii,' npc.ii licr ill a TicMly Id luiriiiilly icnomicc wlinl sill' lias lo-ii'itcd. Ml lliat wi' Wiiiil is 111 ^'cl lid cil' any sikIi claim as Ihal. 'I'lial answers mii' |iiii|i(isi', ami lli('r(^liiic when llial is assiiicd, llic main nhjcil tlial we liavr in this iicfrnllatidii is. disiiosi'd (iC. Tlio iori'itorial line is allo^rcllicr asc niKJary innsiili'ialinn. Thai is llie reason wliy lan},'iia},'e is adoph-'d in this Treah thai does nolinlerms refer lo lliis rij;hl of iia\if;alinj; there — does not refer lo llehriii^ Sea at all, hul only refers lo Hie ri^hl of iiavi{,'aliiif; (lie I'aci- lie. il lieiii}; iiiiderslood hetween the parlies thai the ri}{lil of navifjalioii wenlllironi;li. Hnlwe are here ((niecrned Nvilh Ihcqnestion Nvhellier any- lliin^ more than thai was needed in order lo meet tin,' riMinirenieiils of this case. My learned friends have lo conlend that itehrinj; Sea iiicjud- inf;liie seal lisheries — if noii call lliem lisherics — that cenln'd at I'ri- hilof Islands, and I beliitve also on the Comniander Islands was thrown open lo (he world, not only the ri^^lit lo navigal (hroii^li. I will read the last chuise which lam reminded I have omillcd lo do. Mr Adams seemed lo consider any roriiial slipiilaliiin ro),'ardiiif; llial renmicia- liim as iiiinccessaiy and siiperrrogaloi'v. The President. — Mifihl I ask yon what von lliiiik .Mr .\dains and .Mr .\ddin},'ton alliideil lo when lie iinoled this siihseipienl declaration of I'cnonm'emeiil l»y Itiissia.' What is Iliis declaration : — Tlie i|ii('slic)n oi tlie okkv rtaitsmn, the snverei^'iily (iver which was asserled hy llie Kmiieriir (iT lliissia in his eulehraliHl Ukase id' l.s-JI, hnt virliially, il not express- ly reiii)un((!d hy a siihse(iuenl deelaralimi nf thai suvereij-'ii.^ What is llie declaration' Mr Phelps. — It is the deehiralion which was made hy .M. dc I'ole- tica, and Ihc declai'ation which was madi^ to the British I'lenipolcnliaiies. I liavi! read Ihe declaralion hy the llepresentalives that they never intend- ed lo submit such a claim or lo maintain il. That is the declaration he refers lo, not the provisions in the Treaty, because he says il is omilled. The President. — Vou mean lli(> despaleh in which .M. de I'olelica .said llial Hussia mij;hl assert Uelirin^ Sea was a iiiuir c/aiisia/i, but did not intend asserliu}; il jusl then. Mr Phelps. — Thai is one, and Ihroughoul thai correspondence it — 4110 - will Ik' I'imiikI thai lliissiji rotilJiiiuMi lo t.n-iipv iniii-i> ilisiinrilv lliitl iilli- liiilc, 1111(1 Villi will liiid, iis I ri'iii- jnsi now, lli<> assiiriiiii'i- ^ivcii In llir lti'ili>li iii'^iilialoi's DM |Ih> |iai'l nl' Kiissia. wliirli Mr SlraH'Mi'iJ Caiiiiiii^ i'i)iiiiiiiiiiiiM|i-s III lii-i lioMTiiiiii'iil llial lliiM'c was iin iiilriilinn lli.>! Ilirv wen- a--srr|iMl |iiTlia|is I had lii'llcr n-rcr aiiaiii li- llial. Oiii' nl' llicsi- passap's is Iin- iiiii- I have read al |iaf;c H(l. The President. — Tlial wa< laliT. Mr Phelps : I ,1111 li:i|i|i> I" li'iV'' il Ml iii\ |iM\vi'i' Id a^slt|'l' v>iil. mi llii' joiiil .iiilliui il\ nl thr llllssi.lM IM<'lli|lnli'lllj;|rii'S. IImI IIii' Klll|i|'l'n| nl' llll>isia IlilS ni> illli'Mlion Wll.lll-Vl'l' III' iiMiiil.'iiiiiiii; i\\\\ <'\^ln^iv(■ iluilii In Iho iiii\i;:allnii nl llm^i' -.li.iits, nr n| thr sens In till' llill'lll nl tlllMII. Mr Justice Hailiin. - Tlial i-^ im' llir di-ilaralinn ii'I'iti'i'iI In in Mr Ar 'iiijilnii's li'llcr. Mr Phelps. \n; I wa-^ s;i\iii- iKis liaii-|ii'-i's jill llif \\a\ lliiiiiij;li. I liaM- Mill llii' I'l'I'iTi'iii'i- al llii' iiiniiii'nl In IIh' |iai'ii^'tilai' mii': il ran lie InnkiMl ii|i, lull \nii will nnl liavi' I'ailiMl In liavr nlisi'iAi'il IVnin |iiTiisiii^ llii^ i'niri>s|inMiliMiri' IVniii llii' \i'r\ lii'^iiiiiiiii:. Itiissia disiliiinu'il lliis, llial we lia\i' ;:iM'll siirli allnwaiiri' In llin I liili-d Slalfs ami lii'i'al lllilaill In ^liii|) iji ll'iS Sea a lid make il a niari' i liiiisinii. - llial wa- disflainii'd iVniii llii> \i>"v licf^iiiniiii; and all llu- way llirnii^li on all (iciasiniis, and ni'vor assi>rli>d; and. lliiTi'l'nn-. \nn lind hnlli on llio \nii>riran sido and lln- lli'i- li
  • iii|>nli'nliai'ii's: and llii'ii llii>\ iiiaki' llic Ti'*>al\. The President. I would iml liki- In llii'o'.\ any disn>|iiili' ii|iiin hijiln- iiiai-v, llial wniild iiol liclin\i> nir al all, s|)iMkiii}.' In \oii. Mr l'lii>l|w. in |iai'lii'iil;ti', Iml as uin inaili> an nliiliMiy nf di|)iniiiar\ \i'>^lri'da\ , |ii't'lia|is wi> may spoak of amii'iil diplniiiiilisN, if mil nl' llinsc of In-day. ho nnl ynu think il Mini('limi'> In'ppciii'il llial Iwn nalinns living on viia and lirril Itiilain undmilili'dK did al llial lime, il vmi ri'llliMulicI' llli' lli«lnrii- -lull' III' llir I'imIhI'i's i\\ I'.nrnpi' lirlwm'll lM"in Mild I8;t(l, Ihi'iv w,i, -ivil I'lii'inUliip Null will ivmi'iiilnT in iHJ2, IS-j:; ;uiil iH'J'i lii'lwi-i'ii lin-liplnm;ilis|s. iliiil ||ii-\ ari> olli'ii >alis|ii'il. I'arh maitil.iininu III- iiwii pninl 111 vii'w. In ailnpl an amliii:iiiin- plira-i'nln^v |i>a\iii;: In Ihi' riilnir |i> -uIm' jhr dillii'iilh : and. imliTil. vi'ry nl'lm lln' Inliiii' »nl\c» iii,in\ iliiliriillii's wliirli iliplnmalisls at IIh' lln-n prcscnl liiui' raiiiml >nKi'.' Miuhi nnl Ihi- Im mii' nl' |||iisi> rase- wliiM'i- itiissia and l''.ni:lanil iMi'li li,iil llinir\i>'\N and did iml wish In nmi'i'di' a pniiil nl' prin- ripli' rniisi-h'iil with Ihi'ir pnlirv. and yl did nnl can' In piil llirir if-pcr- livi' priiii'iplt'- in i ppn-iliun In niii' anollii'i-.' Mr Phelps. - I -hall \\v .piilc willing lo adnpl llial. Sir. The President. — I -Imniil iml inll il had lailh, Iml il is perhaps prn- craslinalinii. I — >JIII - Mr Phelps. — II is ii siif^p'slion. Sii-, lliitl I am (|iiil(> willing; lo adopl ; and il is itiii> lliat I \>as ;;()iii;; lo niaki! |ii'i>si'iitly wlinri we had rcailicd llio |M)iiil NNJiii'li I had hii|M'd \\r slinidd have |M'rha|is i'i>a<'hi'd ; Iml I was ikiI. ^itiii;.; In oiiiil li> discii'-s il, hcraiisc il is mil I'm- iiic lo anlicipali; whal Iho (•oiiciiisioii of llic Trilmiial will he, — when we haxc I'cachfd lh(< poiiil hcri! Ilial lan^;iia^i> is ('|ii|iIonimI which ran \h' iinihTslood oin; way hv oiu' |iarly and liii^ olhcr wax hv Ihi' ollii-r |iat'ly, llicn w(> liavi< reached a coii- chisioti which is inevilalije; llial il is i'orneilher jiarly lo asserl Ijial his conslrni'lion wa>lheone adopled. Lord Hannon. And then llieic wonid Ik; no eonlrael. Mr Phelps. - And Ihen Ihcre would la; no conlracl. LordHannen. — 'riien we sinndd have locnnsideril on ^'enera I principles. The President. - Ves. We niif;hl say. as Mr Adams did In llaron de linll, llic 'i'lealN would stand lor ilsejl" Mr Phelps." Vi'^; il slamis for ilseii, imt snhjei'l lo Ihc h'ji;al ride>, of eou'^li'nciion. A parly cannid I'oi'liry himself on Ihe one side apv inor(> llian on Ihe ollici' hv adnplin^ lan^ua^c Ilia! is <'oiiri'>>i'dl\ ainhi^'nons. Il leaves Ihe 'I'ri'alv ju^l where il wnuld have heen lell il'lhevhail said in lernis in il. •■ We relVain I'roiri selliin;: lliis poini, " or " Woluinclliis poini open. " Thai is where il would have heen. Senator Morgan. - Mi^hl I isk vou a i|iieslion. Mr I'help,.' I nii- der-land llial Hie rrinne(d' sea round Ihe liorderol'a enimlrv li Ihe i-\lenl of Ihe :i mile limit i> iinirf I l'ii/\iiiii at the iipliun cd' thai coualrv , hut lias il ever heen lield that within thai limit Hie ri;;lit of iiinoi'enl or I'rei' navi- gation would he or could he (uider inlernatiomil law deiiiid to any ship or vessel ol'anv rcirei;;n couutrv unless llie eoiiutrv |<> whom thafhorder oi' sea iiidon^ed slinnid proliihil il. Mr Phelps. .No, Sir; neiliier di. I understand tliat Ihe r(iiinlr\ to which that territoi-v or littoral sea heinii^- can proliihil nu'iidv iiiiKu'enl navi^aliiiii. The President. — No, yui -aid -.. vestenhiy. Senator Mo;,i:an. — Ami the n^hi of tree mivifjalion slan-ls aliove everv other ri;;iii in inleruatiouai law; and that is lhe view llial these nation , iiad .if free uavi^ialioii when tiiey were uialunj; thi'x' Tl'ealies. Mr Phe'ifS. Tlial i- true. There i- im power in .niv nalimi thai I know oflojM'evenl harmless and innocent navigation in a lltlxial >ea, i>r within the three miles oi' cainion-shol ilislanee. Tin- onlv rcirjctinus are those nec-es-ai'v lo Ihe accdmpli-limeni u| -.inie interest ur sunn f;ood purpose, nf wliieli llie nalioii is larj;elv it- own jnd;ie: hut Lord (liief .liislici' C.ockhnrn, as von will reinendier. uses vi'ry slroii;- liin^uap' altdwl that, and he savs the proposition lo exclude innoeoni na* i»i.i)ion eun in the three mile limit is not (o he heard of. — there is •*»«*.■ -iich expre-^jon as that, ami I think all aiilhorilies i onenr on thai |h>iw4. Now. the (piesliiius (d' Ihe President and nf |,(*d Mannen, liav* drawn uiesomewhal into hvpolhetical instances I 1I..1 not, for a moment, mn- cede IhaKireal lliilain stood in 1 position itliere il could I. ive any resM- — an — valion on tlit; conslniclioii dI' IliisTroaly, hociuise llio uiidtTslamliiif: thai look |ilace belwccii Uiissia and America as In llio oH'ivl of llic American Ti'< aly was roiiiiniiniialcil In llu> Itiilisli (loviM-nnii-nl nioiH; llian a yar. or ainiosi a year. siini<> nionllis al any rali>. and llial is loiiiid in Ilic \ddin^ Ion hdlcr thai 1 have rd'crnMl Id Iti'lorc, and I pi liack In il In rail alli'n- lion to lis dale, Auf^nsl tlii- "Jnd !H2i. Il is on paf^e (Hi o( llic sanii- linol, liiall have licon I'oadinfitVnni al llic iinlloni nrilic pa^'c. Thai 'i'l'caU was sifjiiod llie 2Htli of l'"cliiiiar\ llic nc\l \cai' and lliis was six nionllis l)c- I'oro. In lliiil docnnuMil Hie Itrilisli Ki'prcsonlalivc coniinniiicalcs lo his (lovcriiincnl rroiii llic hifjhcsl anllinrily, llial is llic American Scciclarv of Slalc.wlial llic nnilcrslaiidiiifi ol' the conslriKiioii of llial Treaty was, so Ihal six monllis al'lcr lliey ado|ile(l il willi llic kiiowled^'i; llial llie eonslrnclinii piil upon il hy Ihosc parlies was sneli as in here expres>e(|. How can any parly lo a conlrael wlicllier il is a iialioii or an iiidi\idiial reserve Ihc ri;j;lil in aceeplin^; a conlrael willi Ihc knnw|cdi;c nl'lhc inider- slaiuliiif; Ihal llie nllier parly lias of il rescrxc a rif;hl lo rcpudiale Ihal nndcrslandin^ where llic lanniiajjc is amhifjiioiis. Lord Hannen. - 1 do iml sec whercynu ^el IVniii Mr Addiiifilnn's Idler a knowled^;!' nl'lhc eniislriielioii piil ii|tnii IIk; words h\ tins Tiiiled Slalcs ,' Mr Phelps. — (Inlyfjcnerally. when he says in lli(;lanj;iiaf;e I have n^ad. The i|Mi"ilinii III Mil' iiiiirr ilniisiiiii. llie >iivi;reiniily hvit wllirll was ;issi'ili'il liy llie Kin|ii rm nt ltiis>i,i in \\\- ifli'liiali'il I'kase nl' |,s-JI , Iml \ iriiially. il' iinl espros- ly. iriiiiiiiii'i'il liy a >iilis)'i|iii'iit ili'ilaialioii nl lli.il Snveiei:;!!, lias, Mr Ailaiiit assiiii's nil', iiul lii'iMi loiicli.'ij ii|ivilli Ihal rii;hl wilhdrawn. \\ V do iinl care Ihal lliev should he wilhdrawn I'nrmallv if Ihal should he hnmililaliii^ In niir friend and allv : hill we waiil lo he salislicd Ihal llial is mil nf Ihe wav. The llepre- seiilativcs were >alislied lliai il was niil nf Ihe way, and lliev were apprised Ihal IheTivalv nf IK2i helwccii lireal Itrilain and i;ii--^ia did mil Inncli Ihal (pii'slinii alall. As mv Assoeialo sn^'f;esls In me, Ihe I iiiled Slale-^ had aceepled these rennneialiniis, lliev went fnrward with the iicj;nliulinii : lliev had accepted lli<'-e reiimieialiims nl' aiiv such ennslriielinii nf the I'kase nf Itsijl as lliev had taken fright at nr alarm at. Tliev made the Treaty: and when Ureal itrilain adojils Ihe lanf;uaf;c nf thai Trcatv, s|i(. is apprised dislinclly that Hk! I iiiled States had aceepled those reiiuiieia- tinii>, and that Ihc Trcalv llial lliev had llien cxeeuted was mil iinderslnnd as cniitainiii}: the refercuec In tlii>snhiec| which i> iinw here insislnj upnn. The President. — Mr I'lidps, I am snrry In intcrriipl you so ofleii. Mr Phelps. — I assure \on. Sir, il is iml the least an iiitcrriiptiim. I am only loo happy lo be asked a (|neslion. The President. — I sii|i|)osc lliis siil)su(|iicnl ticcliiralion ol'virliiiil, if nut t'X|iicssiMl rcmiiiiii'cinciil would l)i' in tlu' alliixifni lo llm (•irciilar of ('.(iiiiil .Nl'sscIioiIi' (if Oflobcr :2I, wliicli is prinlod al |)a;;c •'$. and wliirli has liiMMi sent Id all llii; (■i)\L>rnnienls and hcin}; a rirciilar, il had the aniliorily ol'llu' jjononil dodaraiion of llic lUissian (iovcrnnionl. I snj)- |)iisc llial. in voiir ii|iinion, IIk^ (iovci'iinicnls holli ol' Ilic I'liilod States and luval Itrilain nia\ lia\(> "r nstrned this circular as adniitlin^; of llK^irri^ht of navif^aliiifi freely tlironuli Ikdirin}; Straits and consi'»|uently through itelirinf; Sna. Mr Phelps. — Ves. The President. — .\nd conseqnenlly would not ini|)ly the light of lishing on I In; way. Mr Phelps. — Ves, lishing is one thin;;. The President. Well, sealing; on Ihe way. Mr Phelps. — Ouile so. The President. — <>r whaling on the way. Mr Phelps. — \es, whaliiif: niav he re^jarded as lishiiiii, 1 do not ^o into llial. II is mil in dis|iule. The President. — .ND. il is an analofjy. Mr Phelps. Il is an analoj:y, liul we have never insisted upon our having ^ol Ihe ri;ihl lo >liut up lishiiif; geuei-allv al a dislaui e from land. We saw what \\\i\ law was refraiiled lo he, and I am eoniiiif; lo thai latei' on in respect lo Ihe Newfoundland lishei'ics, hut li.al was the law al that time. W'hellier il wniilil he llie law al jliis limi> is a dilVerenl (piestion, and depi'iidiui; on dill'ereiil consideralious. Thai was referi'iMl lo hel'oro as ail illuslraliiiii of Ihe law as il wa. hen iindt^i'slood and as evidently il is lo-da\, allhou-.i' li-iiwliich ure lliedeiii/eus of Ihe open sea, llial a re all ached III no li.>rriliir\ llial arc in iio sense Ihe >uhjec| of properly out in llu; middle that niav he wellcudiigli conceded ; we have not conlroverlcd Ihal lier(>, and if there is nn dislinclinu hclweeu llii> case of Ihe s(>als and Ihe case of Ihe lisli in Ihe iipeii sea, there is very lillle on llii^ claim to a pro- pcrlv or a rigid iliou. Senator Morgan. Thil is shciwii hv Ihe I uase of IT'.I'.I. II (aKes a plain iji-lincliiiu hclwccu liiiiiliiig and lishing. Mr Phelps. .\nd \ou will dhscrve. Sir, Ihal llicv ret|nire no recall — .'m — ol'lliis (trovisioii in IIk; ( kiisc of IIH) miles ufileiiiaiTalion I'loiii llic slmn; — iiolliiii;;. This solijccl is not IoiicImmI njion — il is nul alliuliid lo. 'I'liu nnh li^ni'i* Ihnl Iti liiinj; Soa cnls in iliis wliolc niallor, is on the qiu-slion ol' IVim- navi^aliim so as to pass tliron^li tlit> straits, \>illi llio ad- tlition, |)irliii|is, to llic wonl " navi^alioii ol' Itu; wonls ". navi};alion ami (l('i'|» sen lisliinji, wliicli ;;ii lo^cllicr tin(|n('.'isia with- drew from the I kase of 1821, as you will see, was nothing itnt u eon- striii'lion wliieh lliat lan}.Mia(.'e juslilied, and to wliieii these two I'owers had tid^en alarm ami ils e\|ilanalion was : " WV meant this oidy as a proleelive measure — we did nol mean lo slml the sea — wt; did n(d moan to exelnde son fi'om na\i};alion : we >liall assert no sneli I'ighl — we. are willin;i to sa\ mi in llie most formal manner — we intended il as a protei'iion ref;nlalion. " i'roleilive of whal.' The President. — ho yon mean lo -^ay llial the Kid miles ex<'lnsion was mainhiilied ,d'ter llie (real v? Mr Phelps. — -il waslefl nntou<'lied in Iliis Irealv, ami it was not only maintained lint these indn>tries were never interfered with in the whole of the sea either williin Mill niiles or wilhoul il, imlil after 18(17. Senator Morgan. Ihil il wa^^ iiei;alived a- I nnderstand liy the right offi'i'i' navigalioii lo lliat I'xIeiit.' Mr Phelps. — .Not negalived, Sir, if ymi will permit me — only an I'Nplanalion that that was n>'Vi'r inlended. Lord Hannen. - Is il vimr lliiuiv lii.il lln' tiiil mile limit did not eonie iiilo lAJ^ji'iict' in llelirinj; Sea .' Mr Phelps. — So far asa proln live ineaMire, ms Lord, and, of eoiirse. eonsislentiv with the right of navi^^alion. \\ lu'n vou look on llie niap itfeonrse and lay on! till) niili>-. il pa-.>i'< lliroiigli IIk' Menlian eliaiii, and pas>es thriMi^ii llcliriiig Sirails. II ym maiiilain the HMI milr limit von till slml lip tin: mm. and llieirlori' i ij.i nul iiii'aii to >av Ilia! il was lilerally mainlained. hiil Hial liy llif proleijive rharae'er — liy the pro- leclivi' foiTe (if till! likasc iif I8:*l , w:)- ii'lained ; and as I said yolerday this wlinjr diseiis>ioii liiriird onl lo lie, a-vcrv freipieiitly is tin' cax'. iiolhing Inil a mi^nnderslanding. Says linat Itrilain and Vmrriia : " ^on are elosing llic sea In navigation which i- 111.' righl of mankind. Says Itiissia : " Ci'ilainly mil; we are proleiliiig oiir indiisliA. " Say- (ireat llritain and .\ineriea : " We have no wi^li lo inlerfere «i|li \ciiir iiidii»lrie>. " As I >ai(l liefuir if the I kase had liecii conliiied lo Ihiil in tiTUi-, Iheir never would liaNc liei'ii any i*isen--ion. I'hih wlicn viilh that eoiwiriK lion wilii Ihal explanaliun -- with llial reiumeialioii. if voii elioosc to eall il ^u, of the I'iglil to interfere witii the n.ivij^alion ,ind -- aii;i — lo piiss lliniii}{li hcliriii}; Slrails, is ((inctMltuI llii« proloolivt; force of I his iilviis(? Ill' IK2I Id iii'oIimI tlicsf iiiiliislrii s was all(i\\(!il lo l)i> inainlaiiKid. 'I'lic licsl (!vi(l('iiP« of llial is Ihal as hd'on' tiii'v had iic^ci' Ii.tii inhM'- fcivtl wilh, so aflcrwiirds lliny iicvlm- wrc iiilcil'i'icd with - not a iJiilisli siiip nor an AiiUM'icaii sliip over i>iiIiT(mI Ihal sea, lliat \m> liiivi> any Kno\slo{|f{.< of, for any smh |nir|Hist's as Ihis — lo inlcil'tMc willi Ilii> liado, sxilh the si'llciiiciil, or wilh Hut fiir-sc^al iiidiislry, or llii! I'lir hwiiiiijt iiidiislry, which llicii cxli-ndrd ln^yoiid the ftir-scal. Asissiifip'sli'd lo MIC, in Ihn Trcaly of (ircal IJrilaiii wilh Spain in I7',HI iwhirli will Im found al pa^o :t:tof Ihe lirsl AiniM'ican Appendix llicrc isa similar provision U\ (inal Itrilain. Lord Hannen. — Thai is llie (irif;in ia< poinlcd onl in \onr ca* f IhisTrealy. Mr Phelps. — Arliclc f ofllic'rri'aly hiiwccn tircal iirilain and Spain says Ihis. His Driliiiiiiii' Maji'-ty i'Mp:iii,'>'s In l.il i- llic ninsl cirrcliial iiiraNiin"i to pii'vi'iil the iia\if;aliiiii iiiiil IKIiei v ol lijs Milijeri- in llie j'acilli' llcean nii in llir Snulli seas. IrciMi lieiii^' made a |irrle\l lur illiiil iraile wiMi Dn- S|iaiii-li M'lll,Mle, 111' eariy on llieir lislrery in llie saiil sias. \', iljiin Hie spare nrieii >ea Iciiriies riiiiii any pail nrtlie coasK alreaily cicenpii'il liy Spain. Thai is an illiislralion of wlial I am Irsiti^' lo sav in regard to Ihe ell'eci of liiislkaseof IK:21. Lord Hannen. That wa> a Treaty — Mr Phelps. - That was a Treaty — yes; and we say that Iliis I kase. ns left liy the Treaty. Iiad a similar ell'eel — not thai il was >peeilieall\ pi'oviiled Ihal they should not approaeh wilhiii a ceriaiii nnmlier id' mili">, lint they oltlained the ri^ht of free navigation williuiit olit.tinin^' the ri^lil lo disliirh llie induslrics, seUk'niciils, and Irade, of Itiissia. Tliat was at llic liino when reslrielioiis of Irade were. The President. — Mr Phelps, in the letter of .Mr (.aiming; wliieh ymi have jiisl read, upon pa^e T^t, it is dil'tieiilt In put tlinse In^i'lher so as In make what ynu ha\e jiisl read eoneurdanl with Ihe words of Mr In laKr >iiii,i> nio.'isiiie 111 piilitii' anil eil'ei'lii.il lenmnsliiini r a^aii.>l il. Ynii will lliereloii' I, ike rare in llii' llist iiislanee In repress any alli'inpl In ;.'ive (liis cliaani' In the I'l.iraeler nf llie invniialinn. am! will ileelare willinnt reserve dial Hie piiiiils In wliieh ainne Hie sntieiliule nl Hie lliili^li linVil'iiiiienl. anil llli' jealiiiisy of Hie llrilisli nalinii altacti any great iiiipnilaiK e is Uie ilniii;; awa\ lin a III inner as lillle (li»;imei'ali|i' In llii-sj.i as pns>ili|e nlllic I ; ell'erl III' Hie Ut»ase nl ISJI. Mr Phelps. — Ves. Sir, il has an ell'eit upon navi;;ali niaiiilaiii liio rifflit of i(avi;;ali(iii .' Mr Phelps. - >cs — llic scalinj; and all llit«ir indiislrii-s — nol soal- linj; siifcilically more llian anylliiii}; oisc — lli valiialili> indiisdii's. The President. — An' Ihcii' any tlKciiincnts, liosidcs llu; L'kase ol" 182!, Iniin wliich \,m\ wu^hi iiiror that Iliis quosliun of scaling was spc- cilicalh raised.' Mr Phelps. \» Sir, md s|ii>cilieally raised. The President. — I lio nol sec llial Hie Kn^'lisli docunienls nialinany allusion In Hie ri;:lil n( siMJiii^'. cillier lo e\i'(>|il or iiieliid); il. Mr Phelps. - Tliey do nol. Thai siijt|iorls my eonliMilion — llial wliMi Iliis I'kase ol' IH-JI came onl, llial il, to Hit: e\lenl llio lliissians exidained il — lo llie evIiMil Ihal llicy relied n|ioii il - no (|iieslion was evei' raised. Nohody, on Hie part of the I iiilcd Slalcs or (Ireal Itri- tain rose n|) and said : ■ Voii are cxclmliiif; iis from laUiiifi Hie fiirliear- in^ animals ». Tliev never had laKcii a fur licarin^ animal. Lord Hannen. — They diil md sa\ so as lo Hie whole. Mr Phelps. No. Lord Hannen. Von do n<>| deny llial Ihcj had Hie rij^lil to pi ii|) there and lish fni whales? M? Phelps. — They said miK ■■ lishin;,' ■• — lliero is nolhiiif; ahoiil wlial.'s and iinlliin^ ahoiil >eals. The Prtsident. — ho \oii not Ihiiik Hie Itrilisli diplomatists, in their eagiM'iioss lo come lo an aj;reenienl with lliis-ia, would nalnraiU, express somethint; ai:reeahle to Itnssia -an aekno\sleili;enieiit of the e\elii>i\e rif.dil idlliis>ia lo take Hie seals in the Itehriiif; Sea. I think aiiN diplo- matist would III- verv eajfer lo stale llial as a eoiieession. Mr Phelj,?. — Thai iimldiihiedlv . ifllie spciial point had liien raided; linl the qne^liciii iiiidrr diseiission was lios\ far Hie I kase of IHlM -hoiild he modilied. The I kasc nf IN2I eovered llial and a f;real deal more. II was what il piir|iorted to comm' hfi/oiul llml thai was in dispnie; and when lliat wa^ r.'iioiiiiri'ij and llir iif;hl nf navijjatioii re-al'lirmed so lo speak, llial was llii< end of Hie controversy anil lln' confusion, if von will allow iiic lo say sn. «ir. that attends this snlijccl. The President. - Then hnlli (io\ernineiils, the I'niled Stales and {•'.upland accepted the mainlf nance of the I kasi> of IHlJI. Mr Phelps. - > es. snlijerl |i> || vplaiialinn llial they did not intend il lo inlci'i cpl ii.ivi^iilion. The President. — At aii\ rale voiir nicaiiii j; is very clear. Mr Phelps. - Ves. | wasalionl to sav.Sir, that Iheennfiision arises, at lai> late period, in Irving lo hrin;; llii' sidijecl to hear upon a disens- sion hi-re with which il has really iiolhinn to do minfjliii^ lop'tlier the eohsideralion of two very dillerenl lo|aes. .Now li't mi' p) hack to the - ill: — •i|)|ili('alioii oniiis lo our pnisfiildiscussioii. Wliiil wc rliiiin iiiul all llial \m; t'laiin is lliis : Thai rioiii llinlioned>, hul as an iiifereuiial coiu'cssion hy Itussia Ihal site had nol Ihis ri^ht o\ei' the fur-hi'codiu^ animaU. " Well. Ihe mo- menl you perceive that Ihal (|ueslion was nol involved — Ihat neilher (ileal Itrilain inu' America in Ihal ni'^ocialion or coi'respomleuc(> any where clainuid such a ri^lil that no cili/en of that r.ouiilry e\er claimed such a ri^dit — and Ihat Ihe whoh; discussi(Mi was upon Ihu suhjecl of lhi> ri^lil of nasi^ation in Ihe sea and tiiriui^h Ihe se,i inio Itehrin^ Straits, whs ymi perceivi;, if Ihal view of it is cori'ed, liial il does not mililali' against oiu' proposition thai Ihe posscssiiui and occupalioii of Hu'^ia has lie>'u ,ili>oiulel\ uniu'oJM'M: and to make it iiear vou mu and lak(> Ihe fur-si'al in Mohi'iuf^ Sea ". lfil(loe>uol >a\ llial, it says nolhinf; Ihat is perlineiit to this case - it does not touch Ihis case. If the Ti'eatii's of \H2\ and \H'2'.\ do nol say in liieir lcf;al ellect : " Il shall he law for Ihe citi/en> of tin- I niied Slates and (ileal Itrilain to come into llehriii^ Sea ^iiid to destroy till' fur-heaiiiif, aiiiiiial " — if it doc- nut say tlial . il lioc- not loiicli this ease at all and il i< no mailer tlieii what il does say lor our purpose. It !-• Iherefoi'e Ihe quesliiui : Can \ou put into Ihi' lan^ua^e of that Treaty those words, — Ihal is to say h\ tindin;; general terms in the 'I'll', lis that me, III that — Ihat ex|iresses Ihal : (.anvoii liiid an acknow- KMLiiiciit ill ihal Tiealy that the pni'siiil of llie>e fur-lii'ariii^ animaU was opiii to the ( ili/riis of tliese Iwo countries or open lo any one without llu-siaii pii mi-i-inn'.' II Non can llieii \ou liml Ih.il our iiuiulerrupted po-sessimi of a ceii- lur\, in our iiraiilms, !■< hrokeii to Ihat extent. If \ou caniiut. then Hie Ikase of IH2I and I'le Trealie- of \H2'i ami IS^.') disappear out of Ihi-- ciise, and liav no relation whalevcr to thi> i onlroversv . WCll, now it — 21 IS — lliiil ((inslriirliDn can l)(> drawn into llio cession of a ri^lil wliiili had not Ih'cii (It'iiiaiidi'd - which had hecii (Mijoycd hy Hiissia fruin Ihc hcfiiii- nin^, wliji'h had not Immii i|ii(>slii)ni>d or ('hidhMi};(>d, and was mil in dis- pulu — if \(in can ini|Mii'l inio this Troaly hinfina^i; lliat has |Im> h>^al ell'cci III' cdincdin^' liial ri^hl. il is only, al Ihc nimosi, hy findin<; Ihal hi'hrinj; Sea lor ail fjiMU'ial pnijioscs Ihal aro covered hy llie lirsl Articit! of Ihis 'I'realy, is incjnded wilhin liio " I'acilie Ocean ". Now when yon come lo look al Ihu hin^Mia^e of llic Treaty yon lind Ihal llie lan^naire docs nol jnslit'y il if (he parlies choose lo iisi; ian^na^t; and lake llieir risk as |o whal llial nicaiil, Ihal risk is delerinincd wlien ymi lind oiil whal il did mean, 11' yon an I'nrlher than thai and say : " The laiiftna^'o is anddftnons and Iherefore W(! mnsi lind onl from oilier evidence, proper lo ii(! considered, whal IIm; parlies meaid liy il ", llien yon lind onl in liie lirsl place whal Aim>rica and Itnssia af;i'eed Ihal Ihey meanl hy il. \(in lind Ihal Ihal conslrn<-lion was conveyed to thi! Itrili>h liovornmonl six moidhs hcl'ore their Tri>aly, so Ihal in ad(iplin^\ in terms, as they did. the pni\isioiis ol' the American Treaty, Ihey adop|(>(l Ihc consti'nclion which ilic parlies hail piil upon il ; and Ihc sii^^eslion (d'his Lordship lo me Ihal Ihc rul(> would nol apply iflireal llritain and llnssia hiid a ditVer(laiid. that Itnssia piil a dillVrciil conslrnclion fiom Ihal which it had with .\mcricii. Ihc coiilrary isconveyiMl; and llie\ ailopi Ihc American Trealy with a knowled{;:e id'lln; conslrnclion Ihal il coni, lined. I res|M>clfnlK. sniiiiiil thai Ihi- Imi^ talk and wadiiii,' lliroii^h this in- li'i'iiiinalilc coi'i'opondencc, lioils down lo Ihal. and il is all Ihal il has to do with Ihis case. Willi (dlier piii'poses, and for oilier purposes il had ils place — ils importance — which has Ion;: passed away, and is now only hi'-lorical. The ipieslion is wliclh'r il lonches this eas(> which wi; have now hejnrc iis? II does liiiich Ihis case somewhal — nol verv fa- lally — if yiiu can >a\ lliiil il inferriipls tin' iiiiiform possession of Itnssia ol' llii> seal iiidn-li\ fniiii Ihc discovery down lo Ihc cession. Ill order lo do thai yon iiiii>l thiM'el'ore lind either Ihal the words of the Trealy necessitate such a ciMislrnctioii which plaiiiK Ihey do nol — (Tliemo^l ihal can he saiil, is, Ihey mi^dil adinil nfi|i - i,f else Ihal the |iai'lies so miderslood il : and \on lind thai Anicricaand llnssia nndcrslood il ill one wa\. ami lireat llrilain accepts that with Ihe knowlcd;:e id' the conslrnclion thai is pnl npon il, and lliu reason why she did accept il, and oiif;lil lo lia\c accepted il, was hecansc that lonidicd a point Ihal she was not conlcndiii^ lor. If she had hceii coiilciuliiii; for Ihe rij^lil lo jio in and lake fni'->eals, as she is now, -he nc\er would have sij^iicd llial Trealy in Ihe world wilhonl cxpiicii laiifjnap' and she would have insisted on woi-ds which she propoM'd ill the projcl she suliuiilled : hecanse if she did not p't Ihal. she did not ^cl the malcrial Iliiii;:. or oiic of !lie malerial thing's in dispide. — illlt — She alHiiiilotiiMl llial readily ; ami i' c liailiiisisliMl ii|i>)n it sIm- woiiIiI not linvo ^ia iilil have IIu'dnmi (ijh'ii In llic nmu'IiI (Ills valiialtle iiiiliislry is not lo Iw siippnscd — il wdiild have linikeii of liic Treaty allopollicr. The President. — ('.ould ynii say Dial ikmIIht (Ik! I'liili'd Stales nor Kii};laiid had any aclnal interest in the sealing; — they did not care aitiinl il? Mr Phelps. — Kxadly, aixl that is tiie reason lliey did not insist npon il. The President. — Is there any evidence in the case as lo I he dali; \>iieu the I'nr induslry hegan — thai there was a conneclion between Ihe sealiuf;, in Hie Iteluin}; Sea and the I'm' indiisliy in London, — when the consiftnnieids I'roni INdirini; Sea hi liondon lieKun — when Knfiland hej^an lo take any sort ot'iiiti'resl in it? Mr Phelps. — 1 have not Ihe dale in iii\ mind. The seal skins lir>t went lo C.iiina, and thi! exact dale when tiiey hej;an lo come lo Kiifflaml we will ascertain. The President. — Very likeK later than all these. Mr Phelps. — I have not il in mv mind at Ihe moment. The President. — it is md to he snpposed that eviui London furriers were inleiesled then in the lleliriiif; Sea I'nr industry. Mr Phelps. — Mr Tosler sufi^esls to me that il was a little hefori! Ihe concession In llie I'niled States llial the markcj, was traiisfi'rred lo Lnn- don for these I'urs. I have nol il in my mind al the niomenl, liul I [tre- sume il is correcl. Ganeral Foster. — The correspondence of Ihe Comiiany shows thai lielween IS.'lO and IWHl Iliey !)ef;aii lo semi. Mr Phelps. — Lonj; after this. The President. — It seems ver\ likely Ihal il liiul no sort of cH'cchial inlerest for IIks Americans or Kiifilish lo raise the queslion. That would account I'oril lud having hoeii raisi'd al all. Lord Hannen. — What Ihey were claimiuii was Ihe fieneral right of navigation in Ihe high sea. with all that il carried with il. Mr Phelps. — Kxaclly. The President. — Thai I'cl'ers us haid* lo Ihe (luesliuu of general prin- ciple. Mr Phelps. — lixadh . They never denied and lln'y never inlerl'eii'd practically - llicii' vessids did nol go lliere, eillier from Ihe Inited Stales or (ireal iJrilain. They did not al all interrupt Ihe position on which we stand. .Now, Sir, let me for a single niomenl — I have heeii drawn iiilo saying more ahoiil this Ihaii I iiileiided this luorningi — consider Ihe aspect of Ihe cast! IViuii Ihe point id' view of the ipieslion thai Ihe i'resi- deiil suggested a lillle while ago, and suppose there was a misundersland- iiig. Suppose the I'ase --nol micoimiion in Ihe hishu'y of contracis — vvliero u conlraci is signed with language llial is amhigiious, that is lo M-.'il — sny llial iiii^lil ailiiiit ofcillicr nC (wo coiislriiclidiis. One |»iii'(y liniicslly iiii(l('i>liiiiils il diu' way, IIk- cIIh'I' iiiultTslaiMls il llic iillici' wii\. \\ lial isllie roiill .' Thai |ir(i\isi()inirilio loiilraci at aii\ rale fails. WIh'IIht thai wtiiilil rarry willi il, in llic csliiiialioii nf a C.oiirl nf Jiislici', llii< sel- ling; aside nl' (lie whole eonlrail, depeiuls allo^ellii'i' on the place anil iin|Mii'laiH'e of tlial lealiii'i! in il. II nii^lil or nii^'lil iiol ; liiil lo thai extent there is nol a eontiael. Now let nir sii(i|ios(! Ihat I am selliii}; lo my I'lientl Iheeslale oi'Wesl- iiiiiislor — " the estate eoninionly known as tlu! olate of NNestniinster " — and when the eontiael is eonipleled and llie money i> paid, il liii'ns (lilt that there is an out Uin^' pieei' of land thai von can call " NMiileaere", \>hieh he Mippo>ed was inelndeil in his pnrehase. lie made his pnr- ehase with the umlerstandiii;; Ihat that wa> in his pnrehase; I did not. I nnder.Nlood thai Ihe estate of \Veslniin>ter did nol cover it. Then forth- with the ipiesliini arises Itelween ns. Ho sa)s : • Voii sold mo whal is eoninionly called Wesliniiisler ". — " Vos " — ■ " Thai includes \N lii- tea (Ml no ". To show il Ik; savs : •• I have evideii — I liavi! various evideme to show that it was coiiinionlv iiieliideil ". — " Ves " I repiv, " lull I liiive a firoal deal more evidence to show Ihat il Was nol. \\ hill i> our position? — we are hotli (d'nsipiile lioiie>l anil sincere — wliv the cdiitracl fails aslo that evieiil, which would, ofconr>e. pndialilv iiisaiidali' the whole: hnl he does not ^el \\ hileaere, liecaiise he llioii};hl il — llial is uoj ciioiiiili; unless either the hiii};iia;:e necessarily eovi'i'sil.l did Hot so nnderslaiid il, and, of course, I practice no dece|'- liiiii upon him. The fact that he so iiihIim'sIooiI it does nut ^ive thai ciiiislrnclicin lo Ihe ;;ra:il. Nnw arrive at that coiicliisioii on this ipicsliim of whcllier llcliiin^ Sea was included in the I'acilie Ocean or not, and you arrive al a couclu>iim which I sav is rtdmlled hv all llie evidence — Ihat OIK! party understood it oiii; wav and llio other parly understood il the other wav — then that provision of the Troatv is wilhoiil aiiv elVoel al all — it is iicillicr included imr excluded. Lord Hannen. — I poii thai hvpdlhesis. onr answer lo the (inoslion oii^lll lo lie. •• W (• do llnj iiii(|ci>land. Mr Phelps. — l>\ no means, mv Luiil. The answer imisi he in the ne;;ative, liecansi! if the lan^;ua^(' iliio nol include il, il does iiid iiiclnde il. The President. The (pu'-lion i-., whellier Hie laii|,'uai;e ineliidos il or evciiide-. il. Mr Phelps. — I cpiile af,'roo. .Now on anollier hranch of the case, 1 ipiilo a^'ree, as I have endeavoured lo point out, that the laiifiuafje imdndes llelirinj;Sea. I further insist that, wliellur tin' lan^uaf,'e does or nol, the parlies lo il iiiiderslood or iuleiuied the lanf:ua;;e. Itul I am now on the eviieme lis piilliois thai . wliellier Ihe terms of Ihe Treat V, mn' anv uuder- slandin^ or inleiilioii of the parties that was concnrreiil, make it opera- live, wiiv then, we are lefl when; voii would he left in a private con- tract. .Now lei mo suppose one other feature. Suppose Ihat my friend, heloro he sij;;ns this deed or pays his purchase money, has his altciilioii — -Jlil — drawn lo llio fad llial " coinmonly lallcil WcHlniiiislcr " is rallioi iiiiilii- ^'iKuis, and Im> asks nn^ loinsorlin IIk; d<-i>d " NMiiloaci)^ ".and I di-ilinc, and ncvcrllii'li'ss lie seeks his |(iiicli;ise ami sijtns llie ninveyanee, I should like hi know wlieie he is Ihen '.' Lord Hannen. — I eannol hirhear i'roni saying l!ial yon have not rehM'i'ed hi siihse(|iienl |iassaj;es in Ihe Ciiitiifrr-/i/iijrl in whieh in eileel it dislineliy says Ihal Meliiin^' Slrails ami the I'aeilie (h-ean exlemls up lo III- Itehrin^ Slrails. Mr Phelps. I have nol read llioso passa^os. Lord Hannen. — I have railed your atlenlion lo il lierore, or Mr Tar- lor's, II appears lo me •• I may he hikinj; a mi-ilaken view ol'il — Ihal it is eomhisive. II disliuclly draws a distinelioii lielweeii the I'acilir Ocean ami the l-'i-n^en Ocean - 1 mean aseo-terminons. Mr Phelps. — Itnt slill von do not avoid the dil'lienlly Ihal tlii> haJT a i\»/v\\ |ilain Kn^lish words that would have sellled Ihal tpieslion weri; proposed on the one side and relnsed on the oilier. Lord Hannen. — That is lie^f;in}; the (|neslion If there were words thai carried thai meaning; that is a point yon hav(> mis-ed out. If there wei'e words thai carried Ihal meaning il was not necessary lo insist on il, if the Kiissians by what they said plainly intimated Ihal they nnderslooil Ihal the I'aeilie Ocean eviended up to Itehrinn Straits. Mr Phelp8. — Ves, hnl we still do not jjel over the point lliat nolwilii- stamlin^' this suhseipiiMil provision which was in the original projel as well — nolvvilhstanding thai they Ihoughl it material (as il seems to me Ihal anyhody who cared ahoni thai feature must think it material to put in the very words thai determine this (pieslion. And it was thought material on lin? other side lo refuse thai. .Now il would neither have liecii demanded or refused if the Trculy, in ils ulher tern;s, had contained language lollie sameelVect. If i| had heen declined il would have heen said : " We haviialreadv said so; wi; need no sav it again ^ou iiml the one (lovernmenl insisting on that language: you Iiml tlioo her (!overn- niciil declining lo adopt it; and you tind my friends now iu-is|iug that the Treaty slioiiid read a-; if those words were put in, which wei'o put in, which were refiisiMl in il. Senator Morgan. — \U\\ which is I he I'ro/eu Ocean? Mr Phelps. — It is IIk; Arctic Ocean — Iteliririg Slrails. Senator Morgan. -- llavo Ihey said so. Who is giving that deliui- lion lo it.' Mr Phelps. — 1 suppose il is a general delinilion. Senator Morgan. — ^on have taken it for granted Ihal the " Frozen Ocean " means the Arclii' Ocean, and forgotten that l!{.hi'iug Sea is I'ro/eu for nmiT than half the year? Mr Phelps. — I have assumoil thai to he u definition ; I do not vouch lor ils accural') of course. The President. — II has not heen contended as yet that Itehring Sea was |iarl of the I'ro/.en Ocean — I have never seen that. IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I 1.25 IIM IIIII2.5 iM IIIII2.2 in 40 2.0 mm U III 1.6 i '''i V] (^ // e. VI w % 'W VI ^>.- A // V /A Photographic Sciences Corporation 3 WES. MAIN STREET WEBSTER, NY. 14580 1716) 872 «503 %^ i 11 2122 — Sir Charles Russell. — No. Senator Morgan. — I tlo nol know any lliing aboul conlcnlions. I was trj inj? lo ficl some informalion about it. The Icrni is used lliere ; I do nol know who has a rigiil lo dcdno it. Mr Phelps. — I had rallicr assumed thai meaning bul willioul any au- Ihorilv of course lo ascribe il from Iho consideration of liiat point. Tho President. — Vou would not include Behring Sea in the Frozen Ocean? Mr Phelps. — Tiial bad not been my construction of it, but of course it was not a point (o which 1 had given special consideration. Senator Morgan. — There are only two oceans there — one is liie Frozen Ocean, and the other is the Pacific Ocean, and the line of demar- cation between those two Oceans might just as naturally run through Uchring Sea as it would south of the .\lenlian range. Mr Phelps. — It might be so undoubtedly; but you arc asked to read this Treaty a? if liie words had been in that were proposed to be |)ul in, and were left cut, and Ihere is nol any escape from that, and there is an ingenious reading of the other provisions of the Treaty that escape it. You may add ambiguily and you may argue with ever so much ingenuity thai the ambiguily is lo have a particular construction, bul you cannot escape the conclusive fad that the few words that would have settled Ihc question were proposed on one side and rejeclcd on the other. .May I ask, I.ord llannen, to what provisions in the subse(pienl draft or Irealy he refers to as determining this. Lord F .nnen. — In Ihe Sixth .Vrlicle of the Itussiau Counter projet(at page 7(1 c' llie 2nd I'.rilisb A|)pcndix) Ihe Kmperor of lUissia consents that the liberlv of navigation mentioned in the preceding .\rticle — Unit is the navigation IhroughonI Ibe whole extent of Ihe Pacific Ocean which you refer to. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Lord Hannen. — lie consents that the liberty of navigation exlcnds under the same conditions lo lichriug Straits audio the seas situated to the north of that strait. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Lord Hannen. — And Iben il goes on — " all Itussian and lirilish vessels navigating Ibe Pacific Ocean and Ihe sea above meulioued ", which is Ihe Sea beyond Hehring Strait — if they are forced by tempest shall have the right of refuge. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Lord Hannen. — Now if Ihe I'ai'ilic (tcean does not iuchide Mebring Sea, then Ihe provision is liiat lliey shall have Ihc rigbl of refuge down below the Aleulians. and in wluit I have called Ihe Frozen Ocean; bul that there is no provision for their having any right cf refuge in Itehring Sea. Mr Phelps. — Well, Sir. Mr Justice Harlan. — Before you answer Lord llannen, lel me ask — il'2;) — yoii a question in tliat connection so as not to iiitorriipl yon. I liave not the Kiiglisli Iranslitlion of this Treaty iiere and llialis Ihe reason I ask you. I notice in Article VI, then! is the word " navi!i;alion ". Mr Phelps. — Yes. Mr Justice Harlan. — Can you tell me »\iiellior, in Ihe previous .Arti- cles ol'this Russian projet (hero is any allusion (in addition to navigation) to fishing and trading? Lord Hannen. — Yes, there is a good deal ahout trading. Mr Justice Harlan. — What I want to get at is : Do you lay any stress, and how much, on the fact that wliercas some previous .Vrticles refer to (ishiugand trading, besides njivigalion, .Article VI that Lord ilannenjust read seems to refer to navigation oidy? Mr Phelps. — The (irsl Ai'lide, Sir, of this Counter draft, as you will observe (at the last line of pageBHi says : — On the norlli-west coast of America, as well as dill'crent points relative to commerce, navigation, and lo liie lishcriesoftlieir subjects in the Pacific Ocean? Sir Charles Russell. —Commerce, navigation, and fisheries. Mr Phelps. — That is ihe preand)lo of this counter draff which gives character to lliese various provisions. Perhaps the same occurs in other Articles; hut if is to be observed in respect of Article VI, as I was about to say, that if tlii^ previous article — Sir Charles Russell. — .Vrti> ; III refers lo it. Mr Phelps. — I was about to observe fhaf in my apprehension, with much respect. Article; VI is conclusive in this draft to show that the lan- guage in Article V was not undcM'slood as embracing Hehring Sea, because if it was, Article \\ becomes superlluous. Sir Charles Russell. — No. The President. — Article VI applies lofhe SIraifs merely and to the sea be\ond llie straits — to the Xorlhern Sea — to Ihe .\rctic Ocean. Mr Phelps. — Well, there was no dispute between these parties as lo the right to na\igate the Kro/.en Ocean or tlic Arctic Sea; and IJebring Sea of course comprehended tlu; right lo go oul of liehring Straits. Now if under the provisions of .Vrticli' \' liie right was conlirmed to ^o through that sea and through liehring straits, what do \ou wanl with .\rtich! M in which it is said that the right of navigation shall exiend Ihrongh the Straits. The President. — That is \\h\ llngland objected lo this Article —she did not wautto take that as a boon. Mr Phelps. — Kxaclly; bnl we are now upon the construction of the meaning of the Article if you had accepted Article VI as an addition wbieh Ihe language of Article V requires. The President. — Well, it might be said, .Mr Phelps, fairh, that " (be Pacific Ocean ", in Article V, means anything else but (lie Straits and Ihe Northern Sea. Mr Phelps. — (Jf course it does not mean the .Northern Sea — but that had never been in question at all. 308 — il2i The President. — If " lliu IW'ilic Ocean " mciins all llio sea soulli wards of llio Slrails and all llie Nodliorii Sea, tiio words ' ' Pacitie Occuu " in Arlielo V may lie constrned virlually, in sneli a way as to mean llie sea soulli of (lie Slrails. Mr Phelps. — Ves. The President. — The Slraitx come in Arliclc VI. 11 is all Ihc sea llial is nol provided for in Ariielo VI. in Arliclc VI it provides merely for llie Frozen Ocean; consequcnlly Arliclc V provides for all llie remain- der — liclirinji' Sea, and the Pacific Ocean. Mr Phelps. — II is impossible. Eillier llie lanj;uaf;e of Arlicle V does include Hcliring Sea, or il does nol. Sir Charles Russell. — II does. The President. — Thai is whal il seems lo do. Mr Phelps. — If il does, you do nol need Arlicle VI. Sir Charles Russell. — Yes. Mr Phelps. — Itecause lliere never was any dispnlc about the rij^lit of iiavigatinj; Ihc Frozen Ocean. The President. — Uussia pretended to concede Ihal — that is why England did not want to have it conceded as a rjranl but as a right. That was the desjialch of Mr Canning. Mr Phelps. — Il is a dilVerent question from the question of the con- slruclion of Ihc language. Lord llannen's suggestion was that Article VI established llie meaning of the languiige in Arlicle V. The question wlic- llier England was willing to accept Ihal navigation as a boon from any- body i> another (jueslion, and stands quite by itself. Lord Hannen. — Whal I meant was, here we have almost conleinpo- ranoous documents — one leading to the Treaty; and what I was saying was, it strikes me — (and I confess yon have not removed the impression from my mind yell — that il can be ascertained from that, with cerlainly, that lUissia when she sfioke of the Pacilic Ocean intended lo include the Behring Sea. Mr Phelps. —And the concluding clause of this very Arlicle V which limits the right lo the dislance of two marine leagues from the possessions of both sides, shows that llie proleclive qualilv of llie Ukase so far as might be necessary, was not intended to be withdrawn. Lord Hannen. — II shrunk from 100 miles, lo two leagues. Mr Phelps. — Ves, il shrunk from 100 miles lo Iwo leagues. Senator Morgan. — Hul still il did not sh.ink within the three mile limit.' Mr Phelps. — Hut still il did not shrink within the three mile limit — il was two leagues. Senator Morgan. — .Now, Mr I'hclps. if you will allow me lo suggest this far — I do not wish lo disturb the line of your iirguinenl. Mr Phelps. - It does not in Ihc leasl inlerrupt uic, Sir. Senator Morgan. — The proposition of Creat lirilain, as I understand it,wa9toconccdetolUissia Hie right to proliibitall ships within Iwo leagues of the coast - Hint was a modilicalion of (he 100 mile limit. The too mile limit, and Hie |)ro|)ositioii of Great Britain were both lor tiio same purpose — for the protection of the industry, their commerce, and fur-seal iumtinj;- within heluingSea as I imderstand it. Now the 100 mile limit was adopted by Hussia in llie IJivasp of 1H31 in consequence of facts set forth in the Hritisli Case. Whal are tiiey? At page 22 of the British Case, tiiey say : — Bancroft siiiiis ui) the siluation about !7iU and \H^'l in the t'ollowinjr words : — AITairs woro assimiing a serious aspect. Not only were the Slielikof men excluded from the greater part ot the inlet jCool; Inlet], but they were opposed in their advance round Prince William Sound, which was also claimed bv the Lebedef faction, though the OreUliof and cilber (Aimpanies wore hunting there... Thus the history of Cook lulet during; Ihc last decad(! of Ihe eigbtcenlh centuiT is replete with ronianlir incidents — midnight raids, amhnscades, and open warfare — rcsenihlinff Ihe doings ot media'val ruulirillcrs, ralher than Ihe exploits of peaceable traders... Uobbery and hrulal oul rages continued 'o ')e the order of the day, Ihougli now com- milled chielly for the purpose of ol)taining solo control of thc'iidet, to the neglect uf legi- timate pursuits. .\gain, in anuthor place, the same author writes, with regard especially to Iho position of Haranoll', Governor of Sitka, when he look charge of the Sheiikof Colony of Kadiak : — Thus, on every side, rival eslahlisbmenls and traders wore ry region where Daranoff had decided lo exiend Russian dominion in o.onneclion wilii Company sway. Then on page 29 of the same Volume it says : In I.SOI, there were at leiisl thirteen United Slates' vessels on the north-west coast. These vessels exchanged with (lie natives of Ihe coast for furs, parts of their cargoes, and, [iroceeding to China, relumed to their respective counlries with cargoes of teas, etc. I'pwards of 18,000 sea-otter skins, besides other furs, wore in 1801 collected by United Stales' traders alone lor tiie Cc,na market. In 180-J, the Russian ICslablishment at Sitka was destroyed, and nearly all the Russians there were massacred by the natives. According to Lisiunsky, thi; natives were assisted by three deserters from a United Stales; vessel, Ihe " .lenny ", whicli had called .it Silka not long before. Shortly .afterwards, an English vessel, the " Unicorn, " Captain Harbor, arrivi'd at Silka, and Iwo other vessels, reported by th(! Russian survivors as Hnglish, but one of these Itancroft bidieves lo have been the United Stales' vessel " Ah'rt. " lluiilinf; Ihercfoiv, which was condncled wilii lire arms necessarily, was somethin;; tiiat ! suppose Hussia for Hie peace of herself and the safety of the lives of her subjects desired to repress, hence their interpo- sition of Hie 100 mile limit whicii Crcat Britain recognizing as being loo large, was willing lo reduce to two marine leagues. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Senator Morgan. — That is my view of the progress of the matter, and Hiat is my view of the reason why in Hie Treaties of 1821 and 182.'> no mention was made of Ihe 100 mile limil in the general setHement of it, i)nt it was lefl lo sland for the protection of the lives of Bussian setllers against the raids of these Traders, — 2126 — The President. — Mo you moan lo say, .Mr Sonalor, i( mcaiil lo sland aloiiii (lie iiortli-wvst coasl? All \oii liave bucii reading; relates to the nor(li-\\<'sl coasl. Von do uol moan to say that the lOU niilo limit was a|>|)!iralj!c lo llio norlh-wost coasl, or lo the Troaty? Senator Morgan. — A|)|.lical)lo lo llio 100 ndlo limit— applioaldo lo I he norlli-wcsl coasl, — jiy which I suppose the learned president means Ihal portion ol' the Country thai is occupied now cliielly hy the lirilisii American possessions? Sir Charles Russell. — Oh no, no. Senator Morgan. — Wiiether it applies to thai alone, or whether it applies lo thai and Hehrinj;- Sea, (he purpose is the same. The President. — Yes. Senator Morgan. — Tiial was. to Keep sliips — to keep these Traders — IVoni fioing- llicre supplyiiii;' lire-arms, ammunition and whiskey to the settlers whoreiiN tliey would prohahly keep down these massacres ami raids. Marquis Venosta. — So many questions have been put to yon, Mr IMielps, Ihal I hardly like to ask you another. .Mr Phelps. — I am most happy lo hear Ihcm, Sir. Marquis Venosta. I should like lo ask you I his : yon have said Ihal Iho iirilish (iovernmcnl accepted llie American interpretation of Ihe Irealv of IS:>'i. Mr Phelps. —Yes. Marquis Venosta. — I rememher Ihei'c hein;;- some question between Ihc I'nited Slates and lliissia concernin- the sea of ()k(dilsk and the Heli- rin.ij; Sea many years after Ihe treaty and after llie treaty of cession, namely, a (pieslio )ncerninit- Ihe proclamation of the Russian consul in .bipan, and Ihe question concernini;- the seizure of a vessel called llii' " Eliza •'. Mr Phelps. — Yes— the '• Loriot ". Marquis Venosta. — Do you uol think thai those queslions had some bearing; on \our contention — that the inference is thai there was an inlerprelalion of the American dovernment acce|)lini;- the inlerpielaliou proposed by llaron doTuyll, and bindinj;- in some way the Hritish (Iovern- mcnl? Mr Phelps. — I was inlendiuf; to allude to the case of the •• Loriol ", and afler luncheon I shall be lia|.py to endeavor lo answer the question of the .Mar(piis. Marquis Venosta. — If \ou please. The President. — Then if you phrase, Mr I'hclps, nou will be -ood enou,i:h In answer Ihe question of the Marquis afler luncheon. |Tiie Tribunal here adjourned for a shoi'l time.l Mr Phelps. — In reply t„ the question pul by Ihe Marquis Venosta ljel\)iT Ihe adjouriuiieni, I read from Ihc Unil(>d Stales' f'.outder Case, lion — -IMl — pafje 22 and following. If will l)o remembered llial the Treaty of I82t. Iliat we have bc3n discussing, conferred upon llie suhjcels of bolli (lovern- inonls nnilual riglils for 10 years of trading and so forlli willi llio sellio- uieiils of Hie oilier. Al'ler llial 1(1 years liiniUilion expired, that is after 1H3I, the I'nited States' Government made an ellort with lUissia to gel an extension of it, and that effort failed; and very soon after the ex|iiralion of the time, this American ship, the " I^oriot ", was arrested by the Itiis- sian Government, ami I will ask Mr Foster to be good enough to point out on the map where it was taken. General Poster ^Pni/iliin/ tl oitl[. — It was about ;jl° ;io'. Mr .Phelps. — It was on Hussian lerritorx. and it was seized by the Hussian (lovernmenl ; and the United States prolesteil and ;isked for compensation; and .Mr Dallas claimed, in the correspondence which is re- ferred lo on a siibseiiucnt page of the Counter Case, that the right to do what the vessel engaged in was a general right, and did not depend upon the consent of Hussia. In other words, Mr Dallas's claim was substan- tially that the United States had the same rights there without the con- cession of the Treaty of 1821 that it had with them. Well, it is not sur- prising Ihat that claim of the United Stales failed entirely. It was reject- ed by the Hussian (lovernmenl, which, in the correspondence that ensued, pointed out what Hie objection was; and it was abandoned and dropped by the United States. No compensation was made lo the vessel. The vessel was not given up. The right of the Unite '• V.Vim "case. Vou will find thai at pages 20. 21 and 22 of the Ap|)eiidix to the British Case, volume2. Mr Phelps. — Yes; 1 did not quite understand your question. Sir. I Ihoiighl it was restricted to the " F^oriot " case. The case of the " Kli/a " was a vessel that was seized by the Hussian (iovernmenl in 1887; and il was seized for Hk; breach of an order oi' iv- giilaUon whicli look elVect a! Hie beginning of 1882. 1 will read from .Mr l.othrop's h'tter to Mr Ha\ard, Hie Secretary of Stale. MrUothropwas our Minister. TliL' ltu-*siaii Uovernniciit claims llial she was seized and condemned under tlio - -jl-JS - provisions of an Order, or Heijulalinn, wliirli looi< i-ITcrl at the ln^^'iiininpr of ISS2, and wliich alisolulely iirnlii|jiii>d every kind of tradinj.'. Iinnlinj,' and lisliin}; on the llnssian Pacilii' coasl without a special licenre from tiie novernor-rienoral. It is not ilainied llial Ihe '• Kii/.a " was en;:a;;ed in -oal llshini.'. Marquis Venosta. — It is on lliiil wdi-d lliiil I iisKcd f(ir somo oxiiiu- luiliuii; licciuisc (IfiiiMal Vlaiifiiily wrole lo liio I'liilod Slulos, Minislcr llial (lie ship was coniiscatcd not on tlic jjroiiiid nf seal-lisiiinp; in tlic open sea. lull on iln' f;TOund of a violalion of a Icri'iiorial i-egulalion in (crrilo- I'ial waters. Mr Phelps. — I pi'ivcivc Sir; I see llio point, and I will road a little Inrllior lo see what llie facts were, anil then I will eonsider lliat. Hut tlial >lii' was nmiid aclually ciii^aiied in Iradiiiu' with tlie ualives with Ilie ''onlr-band articles of arms and stroni: li(|Uors. She was coudeinncd by a (",iimiui--iHn silliiiy (ui tlie luiijerial curvelle " itas boinik" , composed id'lbe dflicers llieri'of. In tliis respect the case in precisely like that of tln' " Henrietta" , lueulioned in my last iirecediny- despatch N" '.K\. and of this dati'. It will be noticed Ibal Mr Spnimi'r, the nwner of Ihe " Kli/.a" , in his slaleiiieul iif his claim, declares thai Ihe " I'ili/a " wiis " on a Iradiiij;- voyaije, eiii;iii;ed In barlerini;' wiih the natives, and catchini; walrus, and as such did imt ciune under the Notice of the llnssian GoveriinienI, which was directed airaiusj the caidure id' seals on Coppi'r. Itobbins, and liidiriiiu i-laiids. 11 will be seen that Mr Spoimei' either riders lo an Order of the llnssian Oovern- iiii'iil dilferenl from Ihe (Hie menliniied by Ihe Imperial I'ureiKii Oflice, or he nndersloiid the hitler in a very dilferenl sense. Sir Charles Russell. — Will yon kindly read Hie next sentence of tliat teller wliieli begins •• I may add" , and so on. Mr Phelps. — Yes : Init I lia\e read it lieforo : I may add Ibal Ibe llnssian Cuile (d' Prize Law of isdli. .\rlieli' -Jl, and now in force, limils the jurisdiclidiial walers nf lln>sia lo :! miles IVom Ihe sbnri'. And the next letter I'oUowini;. cnidosed In Mr l.olhrop in thai iellcr isone from liie (ioveriiment nf llnssja. — (ieneral Vlanjialy loMrLolliroi), and licsa\s, readiiii; from the second parai;iapli of (he letter : — This infornialioii i.- in subslanee lo the ell'ecl Ibal Ihe ■■ Kliza " was eonliscaled nid for Ihe fael of seal-bunliiii;-. bul by virtue of an Administrative Ueuuiatiun pro- hibitin,;;. from llie heginnini;- of llie yi'ar ISSi, every kind of co um, rcial act, of huntin?-. ami id' lishing on our eoa>ls of (be I'acilic, wilhoiit a speci 1 aiilhorization from the (loveruor-Gencral, and carrying: with il, aiiainsl Ibose disre,'ardiuL: it, llio penalty of llie seizure of Ibe ship as widl as of the i-.nyo. The Oi'der refori'ed to is (he one issued hy the lUissian Consul at Yokohama, and is to he found on paj^e 17 of (he same hook : — .•VI Ibe reipn'st of Ibr local authorities of liebriiiii- and olher islands. Ihe under- si^sned hereby indilies that Ibe Hu-sian Imperial riovernmenl publishes, for trcneral knowledi-'C the followini;'. (liAVitboul a special permil or license from the (iovernor-deneral of Eastern Siberia, foreign vesMd- are moI allowed to carry on Iradini;', hnntini;-, lisliin;;, etc., on the llnssian coast or islands in the Okhotsk and lirdninir Sea, or on the iiortb- caslern coast of Asia, or within their sea-bouudary Hue. itiSlMtl'd Inll [iril- MCl, of iii/.atinu il, llU! )llSlll ill uiiilcr- ' L'cneral KasliTii iiii;-, ulc, uiirtli- — -.'I -."I — •.') For siii'li piTMiiU or licciisi's, lori'luii vrsscls -liniiM apply \n Vlailiv..>|..U, cxclusivi'ly. i:\) III till' purl of 1','liiipaiilMv.k. Ilir.iiii:li lifin- 111.' only pml n\ v\\i\\ in Kaiiis- clialka, sinli piTiiiils ur liniuos >liall iioi In' is>Xi. it) The eiiloreeiiioni .d'llie aliove will he iiiliiisled hi lin«sj;iii iiien-nl'-war, and also to Ilnssian iiieri'hanl-ve>sels, which, for lliiit |inrpose. will eaiiy Tiiililaiy dutiichiiii'iils and he piovidi'd with pro[ior instrilelioiis. Now, iintliM' llio force oI'IIkiI lieiiiiliilioii, lliree Aiiioriciin vcssols were suecessivi^K seized ami eoiiliseiileii. iiiiil lliiil eoiiliseiilioii wiis ii(lo|ile(l \\\ liie Uiissiiiii (iovenuiieiil, iiiiil no siilisliU'lioii eMT wiis iiiii(le lor il. I'or Hie lirsl Iwo, ii leller of emiuii'v wiis iidilresseil iiy Hie I iiileil Slules' (iu\eriimeiil, iiiid on Hie I'iiels lieiiij; sliiled iis i;i\eii in .Mr Lolhio|i'sle(ler, jusl now read, lluil clidujoriiie I niled Sliiles wiis dropiied or ahiindoneil. Il does appeiir, liowevcr, lliiil .Mr hidliis, its I iiave said liel'ore, niiide ii cliiini in respcel of llie " Loriol ", iuid lluil ehiini. llioni;li ni:ule Hie sniijoel of corresiiondenee, Wiis snliseijnenlK iihiiiidoni'd. Marquis Venosta. — Tlie case of Hie '• Loriol " lias nol voi'v niueli lo do willi lliis. Mr Phelps. — No. il hiis nol. Il isonlv in Hie same lime. Now wlial (joes id! Iliis |iro\i'. Il proves wliiil Wiis Hie liisl lliiiiu Hiiil 1 desire lo siiy iil)oiil Iliis iiuieli \e\ed siiiijecl, ami wlial is Hie oiil\ impor- lanl lliiiii;. in m\ jndj;menl, lo this present en(inir\ HkiI Hie praclieid eon- slrnelion pliieed upon liie Treaties of 18:21 and IS:2,') l)\ [lie parlies lo llieni. from Hie diiv of llieir diile down lo Hie lime of Ihe eession. iind down lo Hie presenl lime, is exiielly in aecordanee willi wlial we sa\ Hie Inie reiidini; of Hie Treiih is, niid Hie Irne iindersliindin^ of Hie parlies Wiis. How il er.i il he llial if Hie Trciilx (d' lSl2i was nnderslood as eon- vcyinj;- lo Hie liiiled Slates lliese riiilils (d' Inidiiii;, and of lisjijn^, iiiid wlial nol. lliiil in 1882 Itnssia slionld piil I'orlli siieh iin order as I liase jiisl read, and how eiiii il he llial Hie I niled Slides would siihiiiil to i| imd |iermil llieir vessels lo hi' eiij. lured. Iieeiiiise if Hie Treaty of l8Ji jiives Hie rij;hls wliieh are elaimed lo Hie I nileii Slides, llieii Hie issue of Hie order of 188:2 Wiisii^ross iiifriniieiiieiil of Hie TiViily, and of the rii;lilsof Hie I'niled Stales under llio Treiih. il is md to he presumed llnil lliissia would liiive alleinpled il.and slili less is il lo lie pivsiimed Hull Hie Iniled Stales would liiive suiimilled lo il : iiiid thai lieiirs upon Iliis j:reiil leiidin^' fact llial from Ihe lime of the diseo\ei'\ id' these islands down lo |8(')". when lliey were eeiied lo the I niled Slates, the possession iind oeenpiiliim liy llussiii of lliisseal and fiir indusliA hnsiuess was nol oiiij iisserled, luil il was aelualiy mainlaiued : iind nol a seiii, us far as we learn in Hie exliauslive exauiinalion of Ihis eiise, was over killed in tliose wiilers except — ■Jl.'lll -- li\ llic iMTinission and under llu! icitiiliitidiis (if 11,1' Hiissiaii ('lovcrnnu'iil. So llial llu> (|iir^liiiii which .Mr Ithiiiii' piils in Ihis ('(irii'siMitKh'ncr. in Idlers Ihal lia\e lieen read, is diie Ihal ha.-> nol reeeived an answer IVdni ni\ h'arned I'riends, and. I respeeiridly insisl, cannot he answered. Ihiw comes il lo pass lliut Ihe Canadian vessels a! Ihis lale period have ai'cpiircd a rij;!d. as ajiainsl Ihe inleresi of Ihe Iniled Slales, in Ihal seal herd, which never was asserted nr claimed l)\ anvlioiK so lonj; as Ihe liiissian (lo\ernnienl remained. Von will rememher. Sir, without wearvini; yiu wilh more readiii}; on this tiresin-ie hranch oi'lhe case, thai ah ml ISiO a (pieslion arose. The llns-ian .Vmerican Companj addressed ils(ii)vern- nienl on llie sidijecl ol' whalini; vessels thai came in there, and asked the (iiiveinnieiil III inlerlere: and sonielliini; is cited Ironi llancnil'l, h\ liie other side, lo Ihe ellecl thai the >piril (li Ihe Treafv of ISii.'i, lielween (ireal IJrilain and .\merica. uiii;hl lie apiinst il. It does not Imich Ihe I'ur animals, hut w hen \ on pursue Ihe anllnu' Ihev cile, ilancrofl, \ou will liinl : TIk! CioViTinili'Ill ill ll'Ilulil ri'fcrii'ii lllC IHilllcr Id ;i inlllllli(li'i> CulllllnSi'll .if (ifllcials (if till' navy ili'|iiirlnioiil. who I'l'iinrlcil llial III an> u|ion. was put upon Ihe i;roiin(l that the interest nf Ihe (lompany in it did not juslil'v Ihe experience liial would he put upon them of lilliiiii' out llu! cruiser for the (inrpose. Sir Charles Russell. — In view of that slatoiuenl. Sir. 1 niust ask leave lo intervene. Mr Phelps. — Cerlainly. Sir Charles Russell. — There is a . Il is pari of Ihe same declaration as Ihal which my learned friend has alluded to. I shiuild think myself tiiat il was a very grave (pieslion. al least, whether Ihe right of the whaler ii\ navigating llehringSea might not have heeii within what was conceded. I do nol cure lo discuss that, hecause we have no- thing lo do with il. II may he so, or may nol he so. I only meant hy this allusion lo point out on Ihal extreme point — and il certainly would he extreme Ihal Ihe Russian Covernmenl had commuuicalions with Ihe lUissian .Vmericaii Company lo which I have alluded. — -.'l:;! — Marquis Venosta. — Ui> yui coiisidLT I he hook ■riMkniaiiii'ir a icliahh! ilniMllllcnr.' MrPhelps. — Thai is a (|iifslioii llial I am iicrliaps ikiI ahli' lu answer. I'Voiu Hie use thai is iiiatle dlil, I should think nnl, and I'roni ils e\eei.dini: liicihl\ rorniislranslaliDii, ! shonhl think iml; liul I really am mil iinalitied and not snt'liiiently aeijiiainted with the anthor or any other llnssian litler- alnro to e.xiiross an o|Hnion on the snhjecl. I nolii'e that i'rotessor' r.lliolt refers IVeiiiiuiilly to him and liial the passap's on \Nliieh he depends Gener- ally turn out to have heon misti'anlated, and Ihal is usually the cirenni- slanees under whieh lliis author makes his appearaiice in Ihis ia>e. II' I liavesut'tieieullyauswurod the (juoslion the marquis addressed to uu', I will !;o on. Marquis Venosta. - The iiook of Teekmanleir is ■ i hislorieal hook, a printed hook, hut i> not an ol'lieial doeument and lor thai reason I havo asked \ou your opinion. Mr Phelps. — Ves. Well, thai is an opinion I am not eonipelenl lo express. Tho particular historian I was lasl alludin:; to is one cited on llie other side — iiamroft, an American writer. There are Iwo of those liussian writers — Tockmanieif, and \eniaminoll' and possihK I have confounded Ihem in the ohservations I ha\e made. If so, it arises from my own ij^noraneo on that sidiject. Mr Justice Harlan, — Teckmanietl' is the man who wrote aboul the Hussian American Company. MrPhelps. — Then this i.sx\hat we claim and all we claim, and I have iieen perhajis drawn into sayiiii;' more tinin I should have said on tliis snhjecl in view of its relativeimporlame to this ease. We have altempted loestahlish — whelhersuccesslully ornol— Ilia! lliepro|ierty iiilere-l which the I'liiled Slates (loveriimenl has in this herd, which eiililies it to protect il, derives a conlirmalion or a corro!)oralion and a streiiiith from a pos- session and an assertion on llie part of IJussia that w,is ahsolulely unhioken, so far as Ihis seal indu^lry was concerned from the earliest disco\er\ down to the present time. Therefore, if you will permit me lo n'ad aii;ain what we have expres.s- cd in the United Slates' ArgumenI , at paijv ill, as the answers whieh we should respectfully suhmil should he made lo the (pieslions in the Treaty on Ihis snhjecl, I shall trouhle you no further in respect to il, except merely to commend [o your recollection what is said on this subject of possession that I have just alluded lo in Ihe Tniled Slates (lounler Case, from page '2i where I was reading;, and for several pages further : Tlie lii'sl four (|nestioii> siiliiuillcit In llii^ Tiiliiinat liy IIh' Ti'i'aly sIidiiUI, in (In! (ipiiiiiui ol' Ilic uii(k'i>ijnu'cl, hv auswereit as fiijlows. iMist. Utissia Mi'vcrat any time piioi' lo ilu; cession ol' Alastc.ilo Ilic I'nitoit Slates clainieil any exchisivc juiisdii'lion in llic sea now known as tlelniiiif Sea, Ijeyond wlial are coninioiily IchulhI territorial waters. She did, at all times since tlio vour IS-JI. ■JIIM - 1111(1 it miiihi tiiivi! ljL>(Mi siiid :i jii'iidd ciirliiT lliiiii lluil Assert iiii(t ciiriiiTc nil rsclii^ivc rijiJit in lln' " seat tlslu'i'ic's " in said sea, anil nlsu iisspileil ami I'lildrcnl llic ii;;lil In pidlri'l Iht iiiitii>liii'> in saiit " ll>lii'iii's " and liiM' cxrliisivi' iiilcicsls in ullitT iinliislrii's rslaiili^lii'il anil inaiiilainnl liy lii'i' li|Min till' isliinils ami >liiiirs nl' "aiil soa, as well as tier rxijn^ivi' injnvinrnt nl' licr trailc Willi III!!' I'dliinial r>lalilisliiiii'nts n|>iin >aiil islamls and >linri's, liy I'slalilis- llinff piolilliilive ii';.'nliilions inliTiliclin^' all l'iiivi;iii vissi l>, i-xci'id in rnlain spi'- (-■illi'd inslani'os, I'rnni apiiioarliiii;; said islands unit sliori's nearer lliaii 1(10 miles. Seennil. Tlie riaiins of Itiis^ia almve nienlidiied as In tiii! " seal-llslu'i'ies '' in lleluini: Sea wei-e .■ all limes, fiMiu llio llr>l as^erlion lln'redl' liy lliissia ddwn tn llle lime nl llie ee- ion lo tile I'niliil Stales, ii'edj;ni/.eil and aii|illesv'e(l in liy Ureal Ili'ilain. 'I'liii'd. " The liddy id' water imw kiidwii as liiduin^; Se,i was nol iiii'liided in the |dirase ' j'aeilie Oeeaii ', as used in the treaty nf Is-J.;, lietween (iii'at llrilain and llils>ia"; and al'ler lluit livaly ltii--ia ednlinned Id Imlil and In exercise exeln-ively ii iUdpcrly lifjlil in llie l'iir->eals reMiiliiij; In llie I'rlMldt' Mimils. and Id llie I'lii'- sealiiiLi and ntlier indiislries I'slalili.-lied liy lier on the >li'ires and islands aliove miMilioneil, and to all trade willi her Cdhiiiial L'slal)li>liiiieiiU on said sliores anil islands, with tin; liirlhei' rijjhl ol' priileeliii},', liy the exeieise nf neiL'ssary and reasonahli! I'oito over iiehiiii;,' Sea, the said seals, indn^liies, and eoliniial tiadi) from any invasion by cili/xns of uthcr naticiiis leiiiliiij; lo the deslriielinii or injury Iheroof. Tliiil is wlial \vi! claiiii as lli(> lair I'l'sull of llio whole oviileiieu in this caso ill respccl lo llie only |iai( of llie old liisdiric claiiii of Itussia. Thai has iiolhiiiji; whali'ver In do wilh lliis cuiirL'ri'nre, and unless yon m- some uieinher of Ihc Ti'ilninal lia\i' any fni'llier sii^i;i'sliiin to niiike ahoni any ol' Ihese topics that I have discnssed In-day, 1 shall leave thai here and liiiidly I shall he niosl iKippy, l need not say. In alteiii|il lo reply lo any sngjieslions that may he made. The President. — I think we shall he pleased if ymi will j;o on. Mr .Phelps. — Now, Sir, haviiif,' lonsidered tiie title, and lliecoiilinna- lion of the title, so far it is lo he derived fioiii previous occupation, I Clime to the second jirincipal proposition that is sel I'orlh on liii! pari of (ireal Hritaiii. The lirsl thai 1 have Iried to discuss was llial these animals arc fcrw mifiinu, the second hein,i;, (hat tiie kiUin;; of the seals is an iiieidenl of the freedom of Ihe sea, and it has, us I have had occasion to ohserve. heeii very eniphatically piil forth, and piil forth hy all my learned friends, and repeatedly, thai this suhjecL involved a(piestioiiof the freedom of llie sea, and thai in conceding any right of property, or any riglil ol pro- leclion agaiiisl this deslruction yon are in danger of invading llio freedom of the sea. .My learned friends have heen good enough lo caution meni- hers of Ihe Trihnnal against taking any step Ihat could possihly he regar- ded as having an ellVcl upon a right wiiich llicy seem lo lliink or regard as heller than other rights, and that is the I'recdom of llie sea. Now iiohody al this day contests that general proposition, least of all u maritime nation of Ihe interests and extenl of the United Slates (loverii- mcnl; hul the ((iieslion is, what is the freedom of the sea? hoes the eoii- diiel Ihal we seek lo protect ourselves against come vvilliiii il, or is il excluded from it .' Of course il musl be said as must he said of all free- — an.i - (lom and of all lilinrly in this wDild, il lias liinils. As Mr lllainc lias siiid, fivodoin (if llio soa is iiol lawlessness; it is mil ("vcryiliiiin ilial can he. ddiic llii'i'c : il sl(i|is somt'whcn', as all I'l lom sl(i|)s. Tlni lihuilv lliat is under Hie law is all Hie lilierly lliat has ever jiroved liciielieiiil lo llin liiimaii race, — wlu'lher all Hie lilierly llial is iimli'r Hie law has proved ii hlessiii'; or nol may he anollii-r (|iiestion. Wlial IIhmi is Iho hislory? Wheiiee eoiiies lliis idea of Hie fre(!(lom of Hie sea? When and whero did il hejiin, and how far did il ever extend, ami vvlieru does it slop? Those aiv the (|iiestioiis thai are iinolveil in Ihis discussion verv direelly and immediately. I need not remind any person eonversant with Iho history ofmaritimn law thai llif> time is nol very distant, historically speak- in^', when this idea of Hie fiei'dom of the sea, first |tromulf;ated perhaps hv (ird, hnl I think lill lii'otins' Ticatiso was pnl loi'wai'd il certainly conid not have licen said lo have Itcen ovorlhrown. Sir llcni'N Maine in his Icclin-c on Inlcrnulional Law at paf^'cs "."l and 77, cited in l!. I nited Stales' Arf;nrnent, paf;('S III, considers this snliject hisloricalK , and perhaps I nia\ he cxcnsed h»r readiiif^ a very lew words. 'I'lic lli>l lirancjj (it'nai' cniiniry, He sa\s, IliiiiV-^ 11'^ tn wliiil, mI lill' liii'lli 111' iiili'iii.ilioiKil l.'iw, was mil' o( llic 1II11-.I liillci ly ilis|ililril nl'all i|iii'^tiiilis, ll;r i|iii'-.|joii nl' iiuiie cidiisiiiii ami iihii r liln-- niiii M'M iiiiilci' llic iliiaiiiiinii III' a |>ai'liciilai' puwci', iir sea ii|ii'ii In all ii.iiiii's iilriililii'il Willi Ihi' f;i(Ml ri'iiiil,iliiins ul' llinliiis anil Si'lilni. In all |iin|i,iliilil\ llir i|iii'-.lion uniilil mil li.ivc aiism liiil Inr I lie cliclniii ul' lln' Inslilulioiial llniiiiin \M il CIS Ihal llic si'a was liy iialiir niimiii prnlu'rly. Ami llic iniml |iiiiiil was ulir tlliT Ihi'l'i' w,is any lliiiif,' ill naliiii', wlialcver llial wiii'il iniijlil have iiiealil, wlinli I'illii'i- |iiiinli'il 111 the ciiiiiinnnily iilsea 111' 111' rivi'is :aiiil also what iliil liislm y slmw 1(1 1ki\c liiTii Ihc actual |iiailiri' nl inaiiKinil, ami whclln'i il |iiiiiili'il in any ileliiiili' way 111 a K''iii'i'iil si'iis,. iil'iiiankinil nil llh' siilije. I. Wril I Kiinw exartly wlial was in llic iiiinil nl ,1 llnin.in lawyci- u lirn lie s|inlvi' nt naliire. .Nni' is il i-asy Inr lis III Ini'iii i'\cii a sjii'i'iilaliv I' ii|iininii as III whalcan have Ih'CII Ihc aclnal cnmli linlinrihe -1,1 in Ihiisr iniiiulivc a;;cs, sninehnw assniialeil willi Ihc cnm-e|iliiili nl' nalliie. The sIcndiT I'viilciicc licliin' lis serins In siij^,L;i"-t Ihal Ilir sea al tir-l was cnniinnn mily in the sciim' (il'lieiii^ iilii\ei'sall\ npcii In ilrpieihilinii. \\ lialcMT jiii'isdiclinii may lia\e heen assi'ilcil, pmliahly ilnl mil spiinj;- I'nini aii\thini,' wliirli iiiay lie callril nalure, Init was pciiiaps a si'iniily ai;aiii-l piiaey. .M allevenls, llii- is en lain, IIimI llie rai lirsl ilrvclnpnielil nl' niaiilinn' law -eellis In have iniisislcil in a innvciiiciit rniiii nnirr li/iciiiin, whalever Ihal may lia\c iiieanl, liM»,(r.' cAiK.vd;/! -- rrnm navi^ialimi ill waters (ivci- wliii'h nnlimly ilaiincd aiillin- Illy. In w,ilcrs miller Ihe I'niilrnl nl a stipaialc snvcrcigli. The clnsini: nl sras iiKMiil ih'livi'ry Irnm vinlciil dcpieilalinii at the cnst nr liy Hie eviTlimi nt mhiic pnwer ni- pnu.Ts si riiiii:i'i' lliiin Ihc icsl. Nn ihiiilil siiM'i'i'iuiily nvcr waler liciian as a lu'iirlil In all iiaviualnrs, ,iiiil il emlnl in lakiiii: the Im m nt pinli'clinn. And lie cites, as yon will lind in a note on Ihe same pa^e, from Mr Mall in his Treatise on Inlernational i^aw, which was an Knf;lisli trea- tise to a similar ell'eet. ■Vow, Sir lien r\ poi,;! mil there that iiiiirr chni-ofin was md the liemn- ninjjufwhid ma\ he called llic law of Ihe sea, if ym (li.unity il wilh that name. It was preceded h\ iiinn' lilirriiin: it was preceded, helore inler- nalional law eoiihl lie said lo have had its liirlli, li\ a freedom of III,- sen. which is inst what is eoiiteiided for in this ease, — a freedom for nniver- — '2 1 .•IS — Sill (Icprndiilioii: a rrccdoiii lliiil Inid no liiiiil ; a I'lvi'doni IVoiu wliidi pm- |icrly \sas ikiI ^a^(! and lilV wiis nitl sale. Thai was llii' early idea (if llie IVci'ddtii of tliii s(ia; and llic dodrini! ol' mnn' rlniisiini, as llicsn aniliors poinl oiil, very cleai'ly conn-s IVdrii Hie necessily of proleclion; and flie world acipiiesced in llie adjareni niarilinie iialioii sirelrliing iis hand onl ovei' Ilii! waters of llie sea and assiiniinj,'a soverei;.nily over ilia! sea as jl did overllii! shore, hecaiisn it was necessary lo Ininiaii pndeelion. Thai is where Hie orij;inal doed-ine ot mini' liuiitinii ({imes Ironi. II conies I'roni nec(ssily (d' prolecHon aj;ains( a lorm oT IVeedoni ol' Hie ■-ea which was lawlessness. Well, now, when ci\ilisiilion and coniiiierce ami law and Hie rndiiiieiils of iiilernalional law had so I'ar advaiiceii Hial Hie assninpHdii of sin h a sovereif^iily hy a inariHine nalioii was no lon;,'er nece^sar\ ; eoiild no lou- sier he jiislilied; when il was no longer necessary lor (ireal ISrilaiii lo assert a sovereij;iil\ over Hie Channid lor Hie pidleclinn eillier olil-ieH'or of Hie world; or lor Italy lo eviend a Mnerei^'iily o\er the Adriatic, or Denmark over the italtic, Humi, as law advanced, Ihe new llieorv comes in; that is, thedoclrine sel Inrlh liy (;ri)liii> of a free sea, and Ihal f.'ra- diiaily came to he accuiiiphMicd ; and wiial i- malerial, ,is I ii,i\e said, is to liiid how far Hie nations Ihen snrreiidi'red Iheir «o\iTeii;nl\ o\er the sea? They did >iirreii(ler it loa lar;ie e\|enl, iiiiipie!,lional)iy ; lhe\ did;;i\e way to the iidvancin^ idea of Hie IVeedom of Hie sr^a. Mow I'ai' diii tlir\ HO.' hid Ihey tlirnw the sea open lo coiiseipiences thai wire delrinieiit.il to HieniseKes; or did tliey retain, and have they jdwavs relaiiied, and i< Ihe wliiiie law u\ Hie sea liased iipnii the principle of retaining in the niaii- liiiie natinii, all that is iiece.,sary to the prolerliun of i(s ri::lils .' Snnator Morgan, Nnw, Mr I'helps, if yon will allow me, I \s\A\ lo adv your opinion ahoiit tliis; whettier, in throuinu opni a ■-ea ii, mhi have just descrihed , it was tlirown opm to iiidi\idii.ds ipper.ilin- npoii their private account and withoiil the anlliiirit\ of the tl.i^, or Ihe license uf any nation; or was it llirown ojieii to Ihe sovereign nations of the world .' Mr Phelpa. — Thai is a point I shall trv to address ni\selt to. Sir. What are the limits? Now, lef nn' state Ihe projiositioii that I \eiitnre lo ie~per|full\ as^rrl with some contidence, as heiiij; the re>nlt of Ihe whole l,iw of the ^la as if exists to day, and ofall Hie application^ to human allair-lli.il it ev^r' ha- had ; — Thai Hie n.itioii- that for ily controlled Ih,. >.|.;i never -iirreii- (U-red the liiiht of sell'-proleclioli which evlended |o ;i|| (|||.j,. iii||.re.|s that were ,alnahle enough to h. protecled whether in pe.ire or in war. whellier indii-try, or commerce, or tr.ule. u\- anythinj; eU,., and liial the lime ii,'\ei has hi>eii when an individual which niav perh.ios inrrl jhe point of your (pie-lion which yon have jn,l pnt- — the lime has never lieeii and the illiislralion is iiid to he foiiiid in any sep.irate rules of law, when an individual could eniia^e in any pnrsiiil, for the |tnrpo.e of -^in on Hie hi-h seas, tli,i| worked a serious injni'y to the inlere^ls of a ni.iri- limo niili(>ii (lliul is my proposilioii), «>vt>ii tlinii;;li llio |>insiiil in ilsolf'iind ol' ilscir, it' il liiid iKil iiail siii'li ("onsp(|iioii('cs, iiiif;iil liavo lii'cii imoliji-c- lioicililc, ; CM' II il'il is I III' iiiii'siiil nrsDiiictliiii^' on liie sciiri'Diii wliiili a^^aiii is lo JMt realised and which in and ol' ilscH' dues no harm. H'llie cnnseciiienee of llial is the serious injury oraU'ectiim ol'a national inlerest. liial nalion never has siii'reiidercd, nor any oilier iialion, the ri'ihl to |irotc('l itscit a^;ainst Ihtit consoiiuence, and lor Ihat. InisiiK'ss Hie sea is not Tree. Then I f^o t'nilhcr; I have spoken of innoecnl occnpation. 11' IIk; thing that is sonj;ht lo lie done njion the sea is in itself wroii^; inhiiinan, liar- harons, iniinoral; if it violates lliose {foneral prin(i|ilcs of law that, are (Miforced in all civilization; if its ti'inlency is ind merely to injiiri; the inli!- rcsts (if the nation, lint to injure thi> interests of mankind liy, as in this case, exlerinination from the earth of a valnalile animal; then (hat of itsidf renders sncii conduct nnjnstiliahle, ami any nation who is aH'ocliul liv it may resist il . No nation can constitnt(t itself tli(> eensnrot llii> morals of the woi'ld. No nalion can lio out upon the liij;li seas npoii the errand of enforcing the general laws of hnmanily, liecans(> it is not invested with that paramount anlhority over other nations; lint the moment that con- diH'l loni lies the inlerest of tlii! nalion — the moment il heconu^s, so lo speak, Hie linsiness oi'thal nation to resist it ; at sik'Ii moment il can resist it. I shall trv lo niaki- mvsi'lf clear on llii> initial point, and I shall not have to refer to it again, that the proposition I venlnre to s;iggesl in res- pect to the limit of the freedom of Hie sea rests n|ion two liranclies, each of which, standing alone wnnhl he suflii'ienl, and liotli of which in this case concur. I say in the lirst placi; that a |)iirsnil that is innoi'cnl of itself, hnl does liavc^ destniciive or grav(>l\ injurious cU'ecIs upon tin! interests of a maritime nalion, mav he prtvented. I sav, in the next place that iiisliMil of lieing innocent and nnolijeclionalile, and something that nohody bul Hie nalion atl'ccled could ohjcil |o — if il goes hi^vond that, and is indefensihie in its moral characler in its hnmanily and is des- Iriiclive of the inlei'csls of the world, as well as of the interests of Hie nalion. and violates those pi'inciples which all nations, us far as llieir municipal jui'isdiclion extends, have adopted, il may In' proli'sted against and \m defended. Now, having given some retlcction lo this siiliject, and having tried to iuslriicl myself Ity a reference lo i verylliing thai I could liiid of an iiiitho- rilalive character on the suhject of iiiternational law, I ventiii'e to say Ihnl there is not a marilini" right, there is not a single feature in what we may call th(! law of the sea, that docs nol come hack and rel'iM' itself, and he si>en to l)i> founded upon this proposition, and that this Ioom' talk that has prevailed — and, of course, I am nol allmling to m\ leai'iied friends in this ohservation — the loose talk that \ou tind pervading the deli- verances of !i very inditl'ereni class and much less instructed class of men, llio class of men who liegin to enlighten the world liin roiihl iiol pri'vcnt a /icacffiil (Did iiiiiucciil iitinj/iiliiiii, siiico such a transit eannot be itiler- (ilcli'd even on hind, liiuugh ordinarily it wouhl be less necessary and more dange- rous. Tlien the note at llic l)ottoni ol pa^'o 112 ; Mr Twiss in section 172 and 18o of liis Inlcrnational Law says : lint lliis is nol liii' ease wilii Die open sea upon whicli all persons may navigate williout Hie liMsl prejudii-e lo any nation whatever, and without exposing any nation thereby to danger. It would lliiis sn'iii that liioro is no natural warrant I'or any nation lo seek to take possession ol' the open sea, or even lo reslriel the innocent use of it by other nations. * * * The right of fishing in the open sea or main ocean is con;mon lo all nations on thi- same principle wliieii sanctions a connnon right of navigation, viz, Ihiit lie wIki /Ix/ics in llic npni xca tloi's no injwi/ lo any one, mill lliu jiroilucls nf llie st'd nrCy in Iliis i expect, inciliiiiislil/li: anil siiffieienl fur all. Now the riglil of self defence and tiic right of jurisdiction have been referred lo — liicy iiave no connection willi cacii other — almost no rehition with cadi other. Jurisdiction is sovereignty and is conlined to territory — Self-defence is not conlined except by the nccessily and propriety of Ihe case and has iiolhing at all to do with jurisdiclioii. Now whence comes this itiea, and I shall approach the precise point suggested by Senator .Morgan in a moment, of a three-mile limit which was pointed out by Lord Chief .liislice (lockburn in //ir Quern v. Kvi/ii which I have cited before, and 1 only allude lo it now in t)rder lo recall the point which grew up in a mailer Ihat was so indelerminate that it was a long time before it settled down — pcrha|is it may be thoiighl to be sellled down al the present day sonicwhal — bill wlial waslhal? .\s was r(!- marked this nioniing in reply to Ihe Senator's (iiicslioii a nation cannot interdict iiavigalion U[)on it as long as it is innocent and inoll'ensive, which shows that its jurisdiction does not e.xlcnd over it — that is to say llu^ sovereignly, its jurisdiction, does for many special purposes — they must be s|)ecial pur|)oses and lliey must be reasonable while large liberty is given to the nation lo judge I'or itself what is reasonable for its protec- tion; after all Ihey can only do whilhin fair limits such as they judge to be fairly necessary for the proleclion of some of their rights or interests. That of itself is nothing, liut take the exception to this surrender of the freedom of Ihe sea. If il is suflicient there is no warrant for going outside it; if it is nol suflicient the same necessity that created it extends the jurisdiclioii further. Then lo meet the exact point that Senator .Morgan has just suggested. IJesides the Ihrec-mile limit there is another extent of jurisdiction such as he referred lo in Ihe fjoi'ds ol .Norway, the large bays where Ihe head- lands were more llian HI miles apart and embrace more water than the three mile limit or cannon-shot limit from the shore would cover, there '21 ;« — the same principle has extended furllier and Chancellor Kent expresses it so well that I will read a few words from page 147 of the Argument which are quoted from pages 30 and 31 of his (irst Commentaries. Considering, " he says, " the groat extent of tiio line of the American Coasis wc have a right to claim for fiscal and defensive regulations a liberal extension of ma- ritime jurisdiction; and it would not bo unreasonable, as I apprehend, to assume, for domestic purposes connected with our safety and welfare, the control of the waters on our coasis though included within lines strotcliing from quite distani headlands as for instance from Capo Ann to Cape Cod, and from Nantucket to Mon- lauk I'oint and from that point to the capes of the Delaware and from the south capo of I'lorida to the Mississipi. That is the point. That is an extent of jurisdiction beyond the can- non-shot line, beyond the three- mile line, and it results from exactly the same necessity. Chancellor Kent says tiiat the necessity of exercising a control over waters to that extent is a general necessity; so (hat, instead of going out when the occasion requires to do the thing that the occasion requires, you extend the general jurisdiction. Senator Morgan. — I understood Sir Hobert Phillimore to lay down the doctrine that in those cases when a nation, in good faith, finds it is necessary to resort to tlie doctrine of self-defence, that it has the right to determine whether the exigency exists, not giving offence, of course, to otiicrnations; but as between that nation and (lie |)ersons wlio arc con- cerned, the navigators, it may determine for itself, and wiliioul question from other countries, its right of jurisdiction to prevent invasion to call out the doctrine of self-defence? Mr Phelps. — Do 1 understand you now. Senator, to refer to llie littoral seas? Senator Morgan. — No; any part of the Seas beyond the tiiree-mile limit. Mr Phelps. — I siiould suppo.se, if the question were put to me, tliat that would be (]ualiti(Ml to tiiis extent, just as Chief Justice Marsiudl expressed it in the case of Chiiirli v. Uiihhart that has been cited; a nation must judge for itself whether auyi)ody, — a nation or individual — will) assumes to exercise th(> viglit of self-defence, must judge for iiimsclf; there is nobody to ju.Ige for him; he does it at iiis risk, — lie does it at his peril. Senator Morgan. — Of course, that is implied, Mr Phelps. — Yes; and, therefore, if a nation, either from bail failli or a bad sort of recklessness in regard to what the necessity of tin' case calls for, should push out on the high seas and do something injurious to tiie ships of another Power and say " This is self-defence and this is necessary ", it still remains to be settled if the other nation remonstrates and raises the question whether the nation has overstepped the limits and propriety of selt'-ilefenee or not; and if it has, it must make amends. Senator Morgan. — That would be a false decision. 570 — -21 '.It — Mr Phelps. — Yes; but when llic nssorlion is made in good t'liitli, as is nsuai amonj; nations in iinidof;ous cases, and does turn ont to be noces- sitry in liie j;(Micral judfimenl of niiiiiivind, Ihen llie nalion is jnstiliod; and the discussion will always lurn, as in many cases llial I am };oiii}; lo allude lu it did, not upon llie riglil lliat will be found to i)e universally admilled, but upon tlic necessity for its exercise in that particular case; and it will be found llial, in all diplomatic discussions on such questions, nobody ever questioned Hie right of (he nalion to do wlial is necessary for Hie protection of its interests. ItuI the somewhat delicate question sometimes arises upon the facts — was lliere necessity, or if lliere was necessity, did you not transgress il or go furilicr than the necessily which justilied you requires. It is ana- higous to the right of llie individual which he exercises at his own risk and which he must not exercise if it is not necessary, and if it is necessary, he must not carry it loo far. The President. — l»ocs the (iovcrnment of the United States claim to extend the jurisdiction as propounded by Chancellor Kent? Mr Phelps. — Vi-s. Lord Hannen. — In wiial way has it been claimed except otherwise than on llio very high authority of Chancellor Kent? Mr Phelps. — I'ractically. Senator Morgan. — H has never been disputed by any nation that 1 know of. Mr Phelps. — ( do not know of any question having arisen. The Hay of Tundy, 1 think, stands on the same ground. Lord Hannen. — Hut there it was not allowed. That question came before a tribunal befon^ which I acted as advocate as you arc doing now, and there it was decided against iis by Hie iini|)ire. Mr Phelps. — I quite defer to your Lordship's belter information, bill I had the impression arising out of what had transpired in these Fishery disputes that the right of Great Britain to extend jurisdiction over the Hay of Fundy iis coming wiHiin its headlands had been asserted. I may be wrong. Lord Hannen. — il was asserted by Crcat Hrilaiii but overruled. Senator Morgan. — I understood il was overruled upon the ground that lliere was an American island in that Hay. Mr Phelps. — 1 presume, if your Lordship had been umpire instead of Counsel, il would not have been overruled. Lord Hannen. — That is a left handed compliment. Mr Phelps. — H is by no means so intended, my Lord. I mean only to say, if the Tribunal had bad the advantage of your Lordship's judgment on that point Hiey wtinld have coinc to a dillerent conclusion. This is aside: il is a mere illustration of what I was saying. Sir Henry Maine speaks of the English rule, and jierhaps he slates il more perspicuously Hian 1 do in the note al jiage 147 will be found a quotation from Sir Henry Maine. He is speaking of Uie survival. The — 2lil — whole cliapler on (his suhjcct or Icclurc as he calls il — il is llic last book our lamented I'riend ever wrote — he says in this pa^^o 80 : Aiiotlior survival of larger pri'lcnsidns that is to say, another survival of the old mare dausiim idea which he is discussinjj. is tin; iMi^'Jisii claim to i^xclnslvo authority over whit worn calird Ihi' Kiii;.'V Chiiinhers. Those art' portions of the sea c\\[ olV by lines drawn lioni onu pro- montory of onr coast to anotlier as from Lands End to Milford Haven. The chiim has been followed in America, and a jurisdiction of the like kind is asserled by the United Slates over Delaware Bay and other estuaries wliicli enter into portions of their territory. If all tills was wrong and it did not survive, that docs not affect my argument. I oidy use it lis an illustration. Now to pursue this nhser- vation that I made, this idea will bo found to enter into, the whole of llie matter wherever you touch il. il is the boltom of every general restrie- tion that is sclllcd, laid up among the ma.vims of international law, be- cause it has ari.scn in such a way as to demand to be followed. Take, for instance, the subject of piracy. My learned friend. Sir Hichard Webster, fell inlo the error, and unintentionally did mc llic injustice of supposing that my allusion to thai subject was with a view of drawing a jiarallel be- tween killing the seals and piracy. The parallel that exists between llicm every man many draw for himself; that was not my [lurpose. I allude to that principle in the law of nations which finds expression in giving juris- diction to any nation to try a pirate and execute him. Now a man accused of a crime, even of piracy, has bis well known riglits. lie is not guilty till he is found to be guilty, lie is presumed innocent. .And every man accused of a crime, when the common law prevails at least, and I do not speak with coiilidence of oilier countries where il does not, has cerlain rights as well, lie has a right bi be tried in tlio district where the crime was coiiimilled, or if committed on a ship on the high seas to be Iried in the country to which thai ships belongs; so that if a man commils a murder on Ibc high seas, or at all events is charged with committing a murder on llie high seas, which is all liial can be said of him until he is convicted of coiiimilling miiitler on the high seas, be has a right lo be Iried in the jurisdiction of Ibe ciniiilry lo wliicb thai ship .pperlains and forms a pari, jus! as if il was committed on Ibe shore he has the common law right to be tried in the district where the crime was commilled, and nowhere else. Why is thai taken away in the case of piracy? In the case of mur- der, of robbery at sea, which is what piracy really is, — it may be rob- bery alone, or murder and robbery, — why may a man be taken into any [loii if the country chooses lo exercise the jurisdiction, and be tried and condemned and execuled? Simply beciiusc Ibe proleclioii of nalions requires il; simply because in the days when piracy was more freiiuent than it ever can be again owing to the improvements in navigation, when — t!l',0 llic ofoaii WHS navi;j;iilc(l by sailiiij; vossols, — • simply hccauso il was necessary tu llic proteclion of llio world anil of niarilinio nalioiis, whoso ships were utloal upon tiie si^a, thai lliey should not he reipiired lo wail foi' (he slow and possil)ly (he reluctanl proe(!SS of (lie nation from wlioin the |)irale came (o proceed and enforce it? The same idea al)on( carry- ing; a (lag. What is the reason, pray, why I may not put to sea in a vessel of my own upon someiionest and innocent pursuit without carrying the Hag of uiy country or any other? Senator Morgan. — May yon not? Mr Phelps. — iNo; I may not. I understand il (o he seillcd law thai u vessel may he overhauled hv the armed vessel of another nation unless il carries someiuiosMi Hag. Senator Morgan. — Overhauled hy (he armed vessel of any nation? Mr Phelps. — Ves, unless it carries some known Hag and hails from some known port. Mr Justice Harlan. — Will you slate the pro|)osition again? Mr Phelps. — That a vessel is recpiired, or may l)e reipiireil, on tiie liigh sea, to sail under the Hag of some nation which she is uutiiorizcd to carry. The President. — If there is a pro/ier Hag. Il must he under the Hag of its na(ioii. Mr Phelps. — Yes — in (hat " hails ", so lo say, as the seamen say, from somewhere. Lord Hannen. — I think the Senator's (loni)t was one (hat passed across my mind — whether it was ohligulory literally to curry a Hag, which means a Hag of some nation. Mr Phelps. must he registered 1 used the word ' ' Hag " Hguralively, I mean (o say il legally set forth. When I say " carry " a Hag, of course 1 do not mean that she would never he found at sea without a Hag (lying. Senator Morgan. — It must have a license. Mr Phelps. — 11 must have a license — it must have a home — il must have pajjcrs. The President. — Covered hy the Hag of the nation. Mr Phelps. ■ — Ves, having a nationality. Senator Morgan. — That is very dill'erenl from (he right of a man lo go on (he King's highway even in a foreign country. Mr Phelps. — Then there is the other idea that we have encountered before which 1 only alkule to now : A vessel may he pursued ou (he high- sea for breaking a municipal regulation. That has become settled, and that has become settled by many judicial decisions. It must be undoub- tedly fres// pursuit, but u vessel that goes into the jurisdiction — into the region of a municipal regulation, and infringes it and takes lo Hight, may be pursued — il has been many times decided — and arrested on the high sea. Those arc specimens of what I may call the i/encru/ res- trictions of this 3 mile limit, Ihe jurisdiction exercised over estuaries. — 2u:i — Imys, I'jords and wulcrs of llial sort — llio rpqiiiromcnls of rc};istcr- iiip; iiiid niilioniilily — llin laws lliiil ii|)|ily lo pirates. — Kvery one ol' lliu KL'iicrid rostrii'tions I hat, irrcs|i('clivo of the requireinenls of a par- liciilar iialion or a parti(!iilar case, vi-ssels are siil)j(M't lo on the lii^'li seas, are tracahh; to that. Tliey conie hark to that — lo tiu! hif,'h sea. That is one ol' the limits, oi- lhos(! are some of tiie limils, I should more corn^elly say, lo the freedom of the sea which have never been surren- dered. Tiien when we come In sjiflriid laws those that have been indicated before — the lloV(!rinj,' laws of (iroat iSrilain and of the United Slates, by whicli vessels may be arrested away outside of the three-mile line under certain circumstances — the i'Vench laws to the same cllbcl — tlies(? (|uai'antine laws — all that eluss of cases ii! wiiich \oulind aslalnte slrelcliini,^ out beyond even the thre(!-mile line and reaehinj? u vessel on the open sea, where the soverei},'nty of the nation cannot reach, where even the qualiJicd soverei};nly thai attends on llie littoral sea cimiiol reach, comes back lo liie samaj;u, p. Mill ol' Iho Amo- rk'un Arf;uuioiii, wlu-ri! lliu rcriTcnco to Ihu pii^c is f,'ivcn), says : Tin' Irulli ol' II. is lln^ory (rinlil ol nunlnil Iriidi') docs not, howuvor, dopi'ivo li(!llif,'cr(!nls ol' llic right .d' stopping llii! coninii'i'rc ol' noulrals wilh tini I'lieuij' wlion llioy diMini il necessary for llicir own dol'cnsu. All thos(! cnsos — Ihc rif;hl lo proscriho a vessel entering n |»orl — I he rigid lo prohibit a vessel carfving what is called conlrabaiid of war — allhough that may be the siibjecl of a pre-existing, regidar, eslabiislicd, and very propei' trade — llie rigid to prohibit vessels from carrying pas- sengers if Ihcy are connected with the forces of belligerent, or carrying despalciies — all that interference on the sea, in cases of war rigidsi wilh the plain and obvious rights of individuals, is reposed upon llial idea — Ilial llit^ right of llie individnal, must givi; way although what he is doing is not otherwise oiijectionabh^ when llu^ consequence of it is lo \M)rl» an iiijuiy to the iniporlant interest of a maritime nation, that is a nation enabled lo protect ilself upon the sea. Highl stands upon nolliing else and as I have said, while these illustrations apply lo the time of war (and I shall cite others that apply to the lime of peace) it is only Iho dilVerence in Ihc nocessily which Ihe war creates because the neutrals not parties to the ar, are in no way coni'crned with its I'elations. Perhaps, Sir, you will peiinil me lo cite Ihe other illustrations to- morrow morning. The President. — If you please. |The tribunal adjourned accordingly till Wednesday the fJlh July, aHI . 30.1 FIITIKTII h\Y. .IlLY li", \H\):\. Mr Phelps. — I wasdiscnssinpyi'slonliiy, Sir, as yon will romomltcr, llic f^oncral (|iu'Hlion of llic oxtont ot'llii? IVcodom ol'llK^sca, I wascndca- voiiriiif; lo point oul thai, in llio priijiivss ol' lliis snltjt'cl I'roin llic days when ntdir cluusiiin was llm law of nations lo (his linii' wlion tin; opposilc (locliine prevails, rcslriilions liad l)ucn iimdi> and priiservi'd and univer- sally rccof,Mii/ed on thai friM>(loni whirli constitutes its present limits; thai it has limits, thai il uiusl have limits, will he unixH-sally coneeded; llic question is what are (hey and whence arc Ihey derived? I had staled this proposilioii not as necessarv to this case because, as I shall proceed lo show in the application of the law to the fads of this case, it is not ne- cessary to f;o to any such lenj;lli. I had stated it, hecause it appears to me lo he the foundalion of the true rule on the snhjecl; not, I repeat (hecause I desire not to he misniiderslood on thai pointi hecause it is ne- cessary lo fto to llie (Extent of the rule in Ihiscaso upon its particular facts, hut hecause, in my apprehension, that is the extent of the rule when il is sillied Ihcorclically and when it is necessary lo };o so far. That is, that the exact converse of the rule that iditains in municipal law is applicahle in inlernalional concerns to cpieslions helwiHMi Ihi; iiulividiials and nations, — nol helwecn the individuals of om; nation and the individuals of ano- ther, but bclween individuals and nalions. i\ow, il is a familiar rule thai if a man is in the exercise of a lejial rif;ht, no mailer what he is iloinp;, if il is somelhin;; thai he h.is a lc};al rijihl to do Ihe conse(pience of his conduct to any oilier persons eonsti- liiles no objection, no legal ohjcction [ mean, lo the exercise of his rif;lil. The consecpience may be destructive to others, hut those others have no Icjiiil ri};h( to complain, wliate\er moral };rounds Ihey may have for rciuoii- (ruiiee. The law olVers no redress. I claim Ihe law to Ik; IIk; oilier way exactly when Ihe question a. 'ses helwen the individual pursuing; on the high seas some object of gain of his own, when tlii; conseipience becomes .;ravely injurious, nol lo siiy destructive, lo some important national inter- 'sl of a nation bordering upon (he sea. Thai is the proposilioii. I have ndeavoured lo illiislrale il as lying al the holloiii of all these well-ascer- liiied rules lliat apply in peace and in war, — one set thai apply to the ghls of belligerenis, which do nol, of course, arise in time of peace; nollier set which apply lo cases llial occur in limes of peace, and to poinl oul many forms these seem to lake in the reservation of lerrilorial seas, in the operation of general Stalules Ihal ap|)ly all along Ihe coast, in the operation of special Slalules llial apply to special cases, and coming down to (hose occasions of the exercise of aclual force which becomes necessary - 2U7 — incii on llii's|>iir nl' ihi' iiininiMil iiml iirf imt jiri-codoil li\ any |trt»viniis cxificiicv. I liiiM^ iilliiilcil III iii(i<.t Ihiil I c;in\ III I'l'I'iT to oi' lih'si' licllinviviil rifilils ; litil llii'i'i- is iini> wliiili liiis jii'iri iiiiuli' llii'siiliji'il uC so iniirli oIimtmiHoii on II lliiT siili- llial wliilc il has nolliinf; lo lin willi Iliis case, lAri'jil as an illn>li'ali\lrai'lcd from despalches that are voliiiniiKnis and will be iiilcrcsliiif; Id biM'cad liy anyhodv who desires lo piirsui; this suhject fiirllicr tlian it is at all necessary for me lo pursue il. Lord .MicrdciMi sa\s : we do not claim llie rifj,lil of search in time of peace, but we do claim the riijhl of \isilalion and }i,'oinfi' on board and searchiiii; for which the rii;lil is claimed. In (illier words, we only elaiin in lime of peace the riiilil of .uoiiii; as far as is necessary. .Mr Webster replies : While \ou have md that rifilil in this case, admit in tim(> (if peace, voii ma, visit when il is necessary when ihere is a revenue law or any afitiression, or lliat sort of lliiufi, but thai if is generally exercised near the shore, but il is a ri^lil of scanh wherever il is exercised. lie was far loo clear in his lefjal principles not lo see llial the monient yi M set upon lli(> vessel of the olliei' nation in llii^ exercist! of a claim of riiilit llial w,is a rif^hl of search, ami that the detiiiilinn of thai lerm was not to be limiled by llie eiuiiiiry whether yon search Ihe deck, or whether Villi search the cabin, or wlietlier \oii search tlie hold; that ass rapidly over these illiislralioiis. There was a discussion hol'weeii (]real iiritaiii and the I niled Slates arisini? out of Ihe taking h\ a naval vessel of Ihe Cniled Slales of Ihe ainhassadors of Ihe Confederate States who wore on llieir wa\ h) a Kuropean connlry. That vessel was o\er- hanled, and lliey were lai.en otil. (Ireal llrilain desired Ihal Ihey shoidd he restored, relurned orreleased; and a discussion look place. How did thai nnue out? I have no lime lo wade through Ihe disoussion ; it is nol useful. The precedeid arises from what was conceded, nol fr(un what NNas clidmed on one side or the other. .Mr Seward f;av.- uj. Ihose men upon the fironnd that if Ihe IJniled Slales had a ri};lit lo inlercepl Ihem at all, il musi, accordiii- to Ihe eslahlished usage ofnalions, have caplured llio vessel. Thai if Ihe vessel was engaged in such conveyance of coiilra- Imnd of war as Ihe Iniled Slales had a rigid to ohject lo,\he rule .m Ihat suhjecl hail hecome settled and eslahlished in inlernalional law. and Ihe only way was lo capture Ihe vos.. I. Of coui.;e, if |he occasion was nol "lie that Ihe liiiled Slales had a right lo (d.ject lo. then, of course, she could nol interfere al all, and on Ihal ground \ou will lind, if y,,,, pursue llial somewhat iidiMcsling correspondence, Ihe men were given up. I!ul a point thai was made and discussed then remains unsetllcd. It was asserted on Ihe oiw side and denied on Ihe oilier, and Ihere was no con- cession, and there was no selll.Miient, and Ihal was whelher and.assa.lors comewilhin Ihe r^de Ihal excludes a neutral vessel from conveying the inililiiryand naval oflicers of one helligerent. It is (|uili! well seliled Ihal a vessel exposes ilself lo capture ii il is made Ihe means of transporling niililarv or naval oflicers hi- any Slate. Thai is (|uile well seillcd. .Now il was said on Ihe pari ol Ihe Iniled Slales, Ihis is e.pialK wilhin the spiril of Ihc rule. Those ainhassadors, Ihough nol oflicers, neilher mili- tary or naval v ,"re on Iheir way across Ihe sea lo negoliale an alliance or il recognilion of this wai Their husiness is direcliy in aid of Hi. rehel- lioii, and, ifil succeeds, ma\ Im'ii Ihe ^ah- and make Ihe rehellion suc- ceed. Thai was Mr Sewards argumenl. II was said on Ihe olliei' hand, liiiil nile has never l.een exjemled lo ci\iliaiis: il slops al niililarv and naval oflicers. and if xon go away from Ihal, you gel inio such seci.ndarv cmisecpionces and indirect <'onse(|ueiices Ihal Ihere is no possihie llmil lo 11 great many cases Ihal can he ciled where a vess(d is carrying passen- gers ;!iat are really in aid of the war, when you cipher it down lo ils ul- limale.'onclusiou. Thai point remains unselHed. That was denied i.y •in-al lirilaiic hiil Ihe controversy came lo an end when .Mr Seward coii-- '■'•'l'"'l lliiil II' In- was right in classing ainhassadors wilii niililai;, and naval ollii'i'i'^ 1111.1 hiinginglhcm wilhin iiie op(.ralion of eslahlished rules, Ihen he should h.ive seized Ihe vessel. Therehuv, in no ..veiil, .'..uld he hoard Ihe vessel and ' d.e certain persons oul of il : he should sei/.' the vessel and i)riug il in. - 'J I. 'id — The President. — II iiuisl he JikI^cmI iiikI p) lo ii Tri/.c Coiirl. Mr Phelps. — Vcs : if Ik; soi/.es llio vcssnl and hriiifis il in liu'ii IIki piirlics liiivi' il rifjlil lo ho lioiinl and llicy arc (o 1)0 luianl upon lliu Irulli of llio assiM'lion. They may show il' liioy plcaso IIk-sc nion woro not, .Anibassaddi's, or ordinary iiassciijicrs, or wlialtiver (lie lacl was, l»ul if you lioard llu! vcss(>l and (aLc llu' men oid llicrc is never ujndiciiil iiroeeod- iiiji. Thai is not warranled, and Ihal ,is llio 'poinl on which (he Supreme (".onrl of Ihe Iniled Stales splil in Ihe easu of Hose v. Ifiniih/, where a fa|)lure was made lis a iM'eneh eruiser ol' a vessel. — she was enlilled lo eaplnre hiil il, was nol carried iu(o porl. The niaj(n'ih of Ihe Coiirl. llioui;hl ileoidd iioUte siislained, hul .lusliee .Johnson Ihon^hl otherwise: and perhaps Ihe linal eonclusioii of llie Conrl in Ihe next ease which says Ihal liosr V. Uinicli/ may he said lo he overruled may hav(! Ihal ell'ecl. I cannol see il so; I canmd see Ihal llie ell'ecl of Ihe jnd-meni ol' Ihe Hiajorily of Ihe C.ourl in Huxc v. Hiiiich/ has ever heen diminished; and I do nollhink llie ari;umeid in I'avour ol' Ihe claimanls of Ihe vessel has e\er heon answered, iiiil Ihal is quile immalerial lo Ihe present case. The case of the Iniled Stales as pres(>nled h\ Mr Sewai'd comes slili further within Ihe principh's td' IIk; ohjedion lo Ihe capture in Ihe case of Jt'i"!' \. liniirlij. Tiiat is all there was in this " Trent " cas(>. .\ow we have shiled main instances in Ihe ariiuinent : I need nut iio over llicm : I am sni'e that Ihe Trihuiial have read what we have under- laUen to sa\ on thai suhjecl; and if they ha\e Ihey do iu)l require il lo he repealed. Take thai case of St. Helena, where (ireal liritain prohihiled vessels from coniinj; willdn 1:2 miles w Vl leagues, or whatever il was: il was a loiii; distance, (|iiite outside Ihe territorial walers — t'rimi comiui; there at all. .Now sup|H)>e a neutral vessel euijaiicd on tlic hi-h seas, not a hVench or a llrilish \(!ssel, hul an American vessel, if you like, cui^aiied in tin! Iransporlaliou id' pa-sen;;ers on Ihe hiiih seas, no war then existiui;- al all, hecanse the war was o\er with the linal sm'ren- der of.\ap(deon. II was a time of pi'ace, and there were no helliiiciTnt rights al all, either as ai^ainst neutrals or an\hod\ else. What is lo hinder a \es>el on Ihe \\v^\\ seas. awa\ out from the terrilorial walers, in eariviuii a passeniicr for hire. It is a perleclU Iciiilimate, lawfid, honest, iinil hoiioralile husiness. \Mi\ was it piMdiihited ? Now into the necessity of thai pndiihilion, or the propriidv of it upmi Ihe facts, I do nol enter. That is a (piesfion Ihal il is nnneci'ssai'x to revive al this dale, whether the Kmperor shoulil have lieen imprisoned, or whether he should lia\e heen retained thei'e, (U' whether auv of llie-e measures were necessar\ and |iro|)er on llie facts of Ihe case, is a ipieslion of fact; hul supposiui; that we concede the premises which Ihe llritish (iovcrmneiil asserted — suppose il was lriu> that the necessity of their sidf-defcncc re- (|iiireil this measure, llieii wliat do miii >ay .d it as matter of law ,' Can an\!)od\ i lialleni;v il ? I could pi (m referriiif; to cases of that soil, and referriiif; to su|iposed cases: an eminent wriler has well remarked, in II passage riled here somewhere, that where eases may be supposed, there cases iiiiiy oxist; lliiil. Unit snImcIi iikin he tUirh ami rcasoiialjly su|i|)(is(,'il inayconielopnss. (in on willi all llu- illiislralioiis thai llMMiiosf Ici'lili; iiiia- f;iiialioii can siil';>;csI ; and I I'uspcclfnlly invil(! any lawuM', any |)nl)licisl, who (I"sii'c>' lo occupy his niinil wiUi llie consi(h'ralion of lliis ([ucslion I'op any purpose — I respecH'iilly invite him lo scl his iniaf;inalitm al work, and see if he can slalc any case or suppose any case, in whieli (ho pursuit, for pi'ofit orfjaiu hy iin imiiviiluai, of some pm-pose or business, or wlial- ever yon call it, upon ilie hi^h s(;a, comes in contact to a i;ravely iuju- rions extent wifli an important national interest, whelliei' flial nation lias a ri};hl, or there is an\ case in which tliiil nation lias not the ri^ht lo pro- tect itself, whether thert! is any case in which, citiuf; the lan^uaf;(! lliat I read yesterday, the riiihl of the iudi^idual, that is to say whal would otherwise he a ri,i;hl, what wduhl otherwise \n\ inoU'ensive and un(diiec- lioiiahle, must not i;ivewa\ ; whether il is in time of peace or in lime of war : whether i I applies to oni! national iiderest oi' another: whether il is an industry ; whether il is a commerce or a trade; wlielher il is any inte- rest tinil can hiMli^nitied with llie name of a iialional interest importtinl lu ho mainfaiui'd, important to he (hTended, and which is injnriousU as- sailed. \\ h\ , what was the history of all I hat warfare helweeu l']n;;land and the contineulal counlries - that war which was made liie suhjecl of the jiul^- nienl of Lord Stowell llial I i-efer to in the American Arfiunu'iit wlii>re ves- sels wci'e seized under Ihe (trders in Council, thai wai- which liimres so prominently in the history of lln; world, — ^in the diplomatic and jj,eueral history of the world of those days, the early sears of (his C.eidin'v. Why, as was remarked theothei' da\ wlien this was iucidenlallv alluiled to,— the President remarked (hat it did uo( hej;in on the sidi! of l''ranee or Napo- leon : it hc^aii with I'liissia. II was i'russia, in the tirsi place, in the \eai' ISdC). that pul forlli a decrei? closinj; p(M'ts of (hat country on (he .Ndrdi Sea and Ihe river's lo I'liiiilish shipping, a nation with which (hey were at' peace. Well. I do not discuss the necessity or the propriety o( Hiatal all: if I were to. I should he inclined to conclude al this da\ of the world that Ihert! was no juslilication for it. lU way of relalialion, Iheiiri- tish (iovernmeni ,nave nolice that (hey estahiished a sort of paper hloi'k- ade fr(UU the Klhc lo Hrest, where tliey had no force, with certain resd'ic- tions (hilt I need not fio into. That was (heir response. Then Napoleon came out with his Iterlin Itecree, ami declared the lii'ilish Islands lo ho under hlockade and commerce with them as well. Mr Justice Harlan. — \\ here do vou refer lo for that ' Mr Phelps. — ! was referrinfi; to \\'o(dse\'s JJilernalicmal Law for (ho couvenieiii'e of the dates, at page •■i.")2. TheiM; (here is a very clear state- ment (d' the historv if one; cares to lo(dv al il. 'I'hen in IS(I7 came the (hdi'rs in Council from Creal jtritaiu declaring that no \e--«el slioidd Ixs periuilled lo sail from one pint to anolher I am now (pioling from tie; (h'deri lioth of whiidi ports should heloug to, or he iu Ihe possession of France or her .\llies or he so far under their control thai Itritish vessels — 21 S2 — mi^lil iiol li'ixic. A second Order in (U)inu'il docliired all (lie pliicos of France, lier Allies and Colonics, and also Slalcs al peace willi (Ireal Hri- lain, and yel exclnding lier llaii'. slionld Ite nndtM' the same reslriclion as to peace anil coinnierce as if blockaded by Hrilisli ror''es. " What was tlie kernel of all llial'.' II was an assertion by (liose nalionsol'llie rij;lil lo extend I be |irinci|)le of blockade far beyond any limit llial il bad ever readied before. Instead of coidinin;; it, as estidilislied rnles confine ii, lo lliose porls wliicli are blockaded aclnallj by the presence of an ell'ectual force, llicy assnnicd the rifjbl lo declare a blockade on paper as a^iainst neutrals. What was done ajiainst tbeir adversaries, of course, lias no- tliing to do with these questions; they are simply acts of war. As ajiainsl neutrals, tbe\ excluded from the ports honest, Icfiitimalc commerce. Here, aj;ain, I shall not occupy myself al all with llie discussion of the ne- cessity of tliosc things on the part of any of those coinitrics, — on Hie part of lUissia, in Hie first place, uu the part of Kiiglaml in the second place, on the jiart of I'rance in llic third place, and, finally, the United Slalcs were drawn into it by Ihe embargo they established, and llic bitterness llial came from that was only qui'nched in flu; W'ai- of ISI2. The principle was, and lliaf great lawyer, Lord Stowell, affirms it in flic clinirest manner, tliaf all those things, strong as they were, exfrcnie as they were, were williin the right of the nation if the necessily of the case reiinire if. We have cited some of these cases. If is always agreeable lo rclcr to flic language of so gi'cat a law vcr and so good a w rifer as Lurd Stowell (jii any siibjecf. and, granting bini his premises of fact, Ihe law flial he laid down is not to be doubted and never has been doubted. There is not a case to be found that I know of, there is not a writer to be found, with whose writings lam familiar, who ever undertook fo say that !,(ird Sfowi'li was wrong, IMenty have been found to say that flie I'ai'fs did not give rise to the neciv-silx thai was claimed: plenty have been found to criticise, — historians and liislorical crilics — the action of these nations, but upon wiial ground.' Thai llicy were wrong in their law? No, thai they were wrong in their facts, and lliis was on Hie condem- nation of a vi'ssel: il was not an abstract or uliilrr opinion of his: it wa- when a \('>st'l of a neutral I'ower was captured on Ihe high seas by itrilish cruisers for alleinpliiig to carry on a legilimali- and proper com- mei with ports, when there was no blockading force, in \ioialion of Mii< paper blockadi; that Hie question came up for Lord Slowell's decision, lie says in the ease of Hie " Success " in Ihe Isl Hod- sons' Hepoii .11 jpMgi: I '!•.!, Mild I read IVom page I.').') of the I'niled States' Argumenl : — Til.' liloikiiilo llias iinposL'd is ccrtainlv nl' a new and cvlcmleil kiinl. Ijiil Ikis aiiseu nci'cssiU'ily iii\! ,:!' tin (^xlr.iorihiiary ilccrci's Usiieil liy llu' nilcr el' I'r.iiicc ;ij;aiiisl Ilie ciPillil'iTce .il' Iliis i-niuilry, iiiiil ^ali-i^ls. Ilini'loic, in llic iiii|ji'i'lii'ti it applicable, why, Ihen, il was within the principles of thai iulernalional law, on whiidi alone there would be a judgment of con- dcmnalion against neulral vessels or otherwise innocent vessels not en- gaged in carrying contraband of war, but simply engaged in legitimalc commerce with ports that were not blockaded. Let us try Ibis for a few moments, and I shall gel on with all these points as fast us I can. It is my misfortune ami not my laidl thai I cannot gel on faster. It takes a greater ability lo be brief than il docs lo be long, as we all know jiretty well. Now. suppose a set of cases to which Ihe allenlion of mv learned friend has been invited, and Ihe failure of Ihe allempi (d' lawyers of the lirsl rank from wiiom evervliiiug is to be expected thai llieirside of Ihe (piestion admilsof, — llie tiller failure of the attempt of my learned friends lo give an inlelligent answer lo these enquiries — is a stronger argument in favour of Ihe propositions that we adva'iced than we can make. If they eoidd be answered, surely no men in Ihe world are better (pialitied lo do il than my three learned friirnds wiio have addressed the Court at considerable length. When they fail, we have a right to say lliat cverv- body will fail. .Now. I am sure llie Tribunal could not have failed to observe, as we passed along Ihrough some of these historic instances, the various sup- posed cases thai were made. W't^ will go back to .Mr iilaine's iliuslra- lion thai he put out in llie correspondence which is as good as any other. — 2ln.t — IFore arc llioso .N'owfoiimlliuul Kisliories l)oIon};iiig to Groat Hrilain or its proviiu'c, llio source ol' a valiiahio industry, a lii'cal means of sul)sistonce to its people, carried on lor a very lonj; lime, and prolected hy the laws of llial i'roviuce. Tliat lliey have any property in the lish which does nol allach to llie shore oiilside of the li mile line, they do not claim. None of llie condilions upon wliieh we have claimed the properly in the seals attached to them. I shall have somelhin);; to say ahoul what was claimed, which I omitted in that pari of my argument, at the proper lime; l)ul I am talkiuf; ahoul the present slate of things. Now suppose vessels go up there, keepingoulside Hie lerrilorialwaters, and proceed lodeslroy lliose lish hy dynamileor othei' explosivis |)roccsscs hy which Ihey can l)(> hrought lo the surface and availed of wholesale, and out of which a prolil can he made, the nccessai'y result of which is the deslruction of a lishcry, and extermination of the lish. Now, we put Ihal (jueslion : islireal lirilaiu remedyless .' Ilavelhoy to suhmil to that destruction at the inslance of a lew fishermen fr(mi Cape Cod lliat can make a prolil for a year or Iwo, or possihiy a single season before Ihe last lish disappears? Now, what does my learned friend say to that? Well, he says that would be malicious, lie a|)parenlly feels Ihal he touches bollom there. There is an element of malice. Well, lei us see; slop a minule: I do nol suppose Ihecasc where an eN|.. 'lion is tilled out lo go up (here for the mere piu'pose of deslroying the lishery. That is not Ihe case. I suppose llie case where the Nanluckel lishermen can make a salisfaclors prolil oul of Ihe business for a year or two, and thai is what Ihey go there for. If, llien, to deline malice; lo be the express desire lo work an injury lo a person for Ihe sake of working an injury, why il does nol apply lo Ihal case. These menare there to make money. TlicN are there hniiake money regardless of Ihe deslriu'lion Ihal Ihey are working. Now. 1 agree with my learned friend Ihal il would he malicious in Ihe true delinilion of Ihal Icrni; nol malicious because il is pure iiiiilice, l>ul malicious because wanton, reckless destruction is always malicious, and il is nol lo be redeemed by Ihe fact that a man can mak(! a i)rolil oul of doing il. If 1 lire my giinoul of Ihe wimhtw inio Ihe street wilhoul hiking an\ parlicular aim and destroy someliodv's iile, 1 am nol lo be heard lo say, " 1 did nol ntean lo kill Ihal man. 1 did nol know that he lived there: 1 had no quarrel with him. " " \\ by did \ou lire Ihal gun out of liie window?" •' Itecause someboiK told me he would give me £ .'i if I would. 'Ihal is what I did il for. 1 had lut wish lo injure an\bo(K on earth. I eould makea lU'olit oul of il. " Itoes Ihal exonerate me? Iloes Ihal exonerate me fiMuii thai malice wliiidi lo a certain exlenl mustalwavs exist lo make a man ciiminally liable? It ma\ (M' ma\ nol be murder, I do nol discuss Ihal. Il may be modilied lo Ihe degre(> of manslaughler, deiilli occasioned by gross recklessness or gross carelessness; bill wilh- oul llu! iniilicioiis inleul lo destroy Ihe individual who was afterwards killed ; Ihal I ilo not debate, but Ihal 1 should be criminally responsible ^•i;;:. — III llio i'(\ bill ami (iiil 1)1 laUiii^- II I'd lo ' lived (Hit ol' t :; if I ihI\ on Itoos always iiilcr, I ii^lilor, wilii- rwanls (iiisiiiid lor llu! arliii some ilef^ree ol' llie law oi' lioniicitleis|ilain enough; l)iit it is mil ill the least modilied by the j;aiii. Now ill that case, my learned friends do not undertake to say that (Ireat liriiain has no ri^lit, Ihatall she eoiild do was lo j;o and invite Ihe I iiiled Slates to eiiler into a Trealy by which she could keep everybody al home. These peoph; may nol he siibjecl lo the jurisdiction of Ihe I iiilcd Stales. They may bo wanderers of the sea, subject lo no parli- ciilar jiirisdiclioii, like some of lliesi; biuids of renegades that were broken up by President Monroe and another President in Hie cases that we have ciled. Tiiat is iiol piracy. As my learned friends well ar;;iie, that does not comewilhin the dednilioii ol piracy, lo come llicic and destroy Ihe lish by dynamite. Is there any right of defence or projection, or iniisl Ihe (iovernment sit down and permit thai lo be destroyed '.' Apply llial to this business of (piaranliiie. Quariuiline laws are in ibrce williin Ihe lerritoriiil limits, and territorial limits are usually siiflicienl I'oi'IIk; pur- pose. There is no necessity lo f;o out on lo the hif;h sea lo iiilercept a \essel usually to enforce (piaranliiie rej;iilalions. liiil suppose it be- came necessary supposing a vessel coming' from some plague-slrickcn poll, laden with contagiiui which would ravage a whole ctuilinenl. can- not be mel eirecliiaily wilhiii Ihe Ihrcc-mile liiiiil, and you have lo go oiilside, is there aii\ rigid. (Ireal I'lilain has asserted liiat rigid by sla- liiles lliat are on her Statute Hook \et. and which are nieiilioned willi ap- probation by writers and .ludgcs. Suppose this case of the cable to which my learned friend's attention was iiniled. Supposing two nalious eslablished a cable and there is a party who, by oyster-dredging or by some industry at the bottom of the sea, that is well enough in itself, it it did not interrupt liic operations of the cable, is interiupling its opera- tions and is tlireateniiig its deslriiclioii, and Ihe iiiaii says, " I am on the high seas; I am lishiiig. I''isliiiig is a right on the iiigh seas. If it iut(>rrupls your cable, I cannot help that. Voii iiiiisl take care of yourself". Is there any remedy.' My learned friend says, " Yes, \ou have a Trcalv. We June a Ti.aty lo prevent lliat vci-\ thing, siiowiiig that my illustralioii is no! \ci\ lar fetched. We aniicipale that by a Treaty ". Willi wiionr.' All ilu' nations of the earth.' .No, that is practicallv impossible: if one nation is lefl out of the Trealy, that may go and engage in Ihe very operations thai endanger this cable. Suppose some nalioii says '• I decline lo enter into it, as I ba\e a right lo do ": lliere is no obiigalioii on the pari of any iialion lo enter into any Treaty unless she pleases. That is a matter of agreement. Suppose any eouiilry is invited b\ the I iiiled Slates to join in a conven- tion for Ihe proleclion of u cable belween Newfoundland and Ireland, which is a (iovernmenl work, if you please, llui iialimi says, just as smiie of Ihe couiitiies re|)lied to Mr llavai'd's invitation lo join in a coincnlion for llu preser\ation of the seals, " There is no objeciioii to it. but il does Hot interest us. We do not care lo go into it ". The only nations that responded to .Mr Mayard in that way were lUissia, Japan, and (ireal llri- — '2ln(i — lain, ill (lie lirsl insluiico. All llic rest slated it did not mailer, but put it aside, sayinj; il svas not a thing lliat they had any interest in. Now sii|)|)ose thai nation refnses to enter into a convenlion, or siipiiose what is inevitable, that it is I'onnd im|)ossii)le to extend il to every sea-j;oin}; nation on the I'aec of tiie earlh, or suppose in this case, as I have snpposed in the case of the dynamite, the parties engaged in this lishing are not under the special eontrol of any nation, or are a parcel of renegades from various nations. The (inestion is, the right of the Government lo piolect that valuable and important industry, or whether at the inslanee of this gang of adventurers, or lliis parcel of individuals, we must submit to have it destroyed. My learned friends have no answer lo that, except to say, there is a treaty. it does not meet the point. The treidy does not show Ihere would be no rights if there were no treaty. Suppose we have a light house away out in Ihc sea, more than Ihrcc miles, and somebody engages in an industry out in the sea, or a pursuit llnu entirely obscures or perha|»s endangers the lighthouse, or perhaps does not at all, but entirely or large- ly obscures llie light, so that the vessels of the country thai established it are deprived of the benelit of the light, — what is my learned friend's answer to that? lie says the lighlliouse is a partof the territory of Ihe country. That is one thing, but on what pi'inci|)lc is a lighthouse pari of the leri'itory of the country 10 miles out at .sea? Upon what principle has a nation a right, if they are correct in these theories, to put a lighthouse out there and say, " II is part of our territory? " Why none whatever. .And even granting il is a part of Ihe lerrilory. suppose you say, " This structure we have creeled al our own instance in a part of the sea which is Ihe highway of nations and common to all the world is pari of our lerr'ilory" — "Very well; we do not interfere with youi' territory ; we cari'y on a legitimate in- dustry" — " Hut you are obscuring the light and rendering Ihe light- house in a great measure valueless." They reply; "Well, we cannot help llial; we are in the exercise of our right." .\u(l there is not one of these cases that my learned friend can answer, because each case, as it stares you in the face, shows the impossibililyofestablishiiigany principle of law that justifies a class of outrages of that description; much less can you cite any case in the history of the world in which anything of that nature ever was submitted to. Now 1 have discussed, as I said in opening my observations this morning, this proposition of law on the basis of the theory that the objec- tionable business or industry was innoceni in itself, — was lisliing, was doing anything which in and of itself, if you could look at it aside from its consequences, could notbe objected to upon moral, legal, or any grounds; and 1 have tried lo show, and Ihe more Ibis |)roposili(jn is I'clb'cled u|ion, the clearer it becomes loany uiiud 1 think that is capable of clear thought, thai even there where the question is between the individual and Ihe nation — iloT — he. musi forp{;o (lio small ^a'\n llinl lie would makf^ by I In- doslriiclion of an important national interest. Hut wiiat is this asu ? It is u case wiicre the pursuit, which is claimed as of ri^ht, exterminates this ract( ol animals, as well as destroys the industry. So far us it destroys the industry, so far as that consequence alone is concerned, it would come within the supposition that I have been dealinj; with. H might destroy the industry, but still be in other respects an innocent pursuit in itself. Tliat mifcht be. Then would come the question, whether the principal rule, or rule that I have cited, is the true rule? It is nothiuf; of tlie sort. It is the extermiuidion olf the world of a valuable race of animals, the last of their species ; and it is doing that in a manner, in the first place, that violates all the law thai is administered everywhere for the protection of such animals. In the second place, it is so inhuman and barbarous llial it woulil be indict- able in any country under the head of cruelly lo animals if it brouglil no extermination. There are things that the owners of animals may nol do. Vou may slaughter yom* domestic animal if you please ; thai is an incident lo the right of |»roperty, and is one of the uses to which they ai'c put : You may put lliem to dealh because they arc no longer serviceable oi- for the purpose of making use of their tlesh or their skins ; but there arc methods of putting them to death that the law of no civilised nation will allow. There are ways of disposing of yoiu' ox and your ass that would subject you to indictment although it is your own and on your own pro- perty under the law of any countiy that I know anything about or desire lo know anything about, — barbai'ism and inhumanity lo this humbler creation of the Almighty is as much prohibited by the law as the infringe- ment of the properly rights. There is a class of people who seem to think, if you may judge by what Ihey say, thai gain is the only foundation of right or wrong in regard lo anything which can be called property ; thai the dollars and cents are all there are of it; that the principal function of men on this earth is to trade and to vole, and when those are answered, the function of law is at an end. I do nol so regard it. I say thai this business, and I am going to prove it — I assume now for the purpose of my argument wlial I expect lo demonstrate from Ihis evidence, if it is not already demonslrated — I say thai the conduct which is claimed here to be a |)arl of the freedom of the sea, instead of being something which, if it had no particular conse- quence here, would be innocent and lawlul and inotrensive as well as profitable — I say that it has a double curse upon it : first, that it is exterminating from the world this race of animals, in which we alone are not concerned; in which all civilization is concerned; in which Cireat l!ri- tain is concerned, in respect of its particular industries, as much as we are; in which France is concerned and other nations are concerned, and in which all civilization, I repeat, is concerned lo a greater or less extent; — • that is what they arc doing, and that, I say puts this out of the category of the freedom of the sea. Then I say, in the second place, if it were not — 21 'is — fvlormiiinlinj; llio ran', lliis ciiikIikI so oII'cikIs IIic iiiDrnl sense in ils milliner, is so liiirliiirous, so itiliiiniiin, so sliocl»inj;- — loo sliockiiif; In |>e liilked iilionl here or 111 liiive llieeviilenec r I in ils revoltiiif; deliiiU — llial is \nIiiiI il is; iinil llieii voii sii|iei'iiilii lo lliiil lliiil li\ siieli eoiiilnel in sneli il iiiiinner, \oii iire liestroviiif; — or I'iillier lliesc |ieo|ile iire, iinil I sliiiil eiHiiiire who lhe\ lire — lliey iire ih'slniviiin Ihis imInsIrN ol' llie rniled Sliiles (ioveriinieni, no! its only resource li\ ii ^leiil niiiiiy. hiil in ros|iei'l ol' whieii, sis I reinindeil you so hin^ ii^o Ihiil il niiiy well hiive lieen i'orfioilen, lliiil llie Ifiw would liiive heen llie siiiiie il' lliis poor |iro- vineeol' Aliiskii had lieeii iin iiide|ieiiilenl Slide, mid Ihis riir-seidiiif; indiis- Irv wiis every resoiiree llilll il hiid for llie silhsisleiiee ol lliese |ieo|)le or I'm' 111 e deriviiif; of its iiiilioiiiil e\|ieiises — llie law would lie llie siiiiie : lliere is not one law I'or llie liirj;c Stale iind iinolher lor llie siiiiiil one, unless il. is IIk^ hiw of the strong liiind. Now llial is the (|iieslioii with wliieli this 'riilmiiiil iseoiieerned, and Dial is the i|iieslioii which would have induced mo, if I had |im'sued my own individual jiid^iiieiil, lo have arfiiied Ihis ciise, so I'iir iis I liiid aiiy- lliiiif; to say iihoulil, in two hours: hecaiise I doiiy — I res|ieciriilly deny — thai alter Ihis eonerelo ease which is to he determined liv llieTrihuiial, sli'i|i|ie(l ofall ils adjmicts, its sn|iei'lluilies, ils connections, and ils un- necessary Jinalysis, — when it is hrouj;litdown lo ils eleincMits it presents llial proposition and that is enon^^h lo determine il. .Many others thai wc li!lV(! Iried lo disriiss, more or less with success, may lef^iliiiiiilely he presented, or not. I'lie title of tlio I Jiiled Slides (iovc'rnineiit to this ter- ritory is not ipieslioned. The industry which they built up lliere is not coiUroverlod. Its value and iinporlancc is not doiiliti;d. 'llial il is the meiins of such civili/.iilioii as is heiii}^ successrully introduced there in the place id' the siiviifio con- dition thai prevailed is not ipieslioued. Tliiil the operalions of these oiiplicmistically termed pelaj^ie souiers are of the cliaracler tliiil I liiive described and have the eoiiseqiicnee tlitit I have described, will not be doubled, lif it is doulitod nowi, before we have done with Ihis case; and the question is : Is a riovcrnmenl oblifjed lo sit, down and suH'er coiiduct ill the e\ponse, and the lienclit of 11 mv IciU'iuMl friend .Mr Itobiinon's piirliciilar clients d should suppose from wliiil he said in respect (d' lliemi, or liiive Iliey the rif^lil of protection in themselves, 1 I'or llie world, against it .' It is unnecessary lo carry this case in my tep beyond that encpiiry. They stiHid upon iinc \ erv wel \(iu have the riKiit lo stand niKiii humble jud^'uieiit ii siii^ the freedom of llie sea. the freedom of the scii so liir as il ^oes till you get lo the limil of it. Is this within llie freedom of liie soii' If it is, why then lliere are no limits. Then Hie sea becomes not merely the highway of nations — not merely the element upon which iiH nations are eipial — il becomes the onlv element on Ww. fiici rill ill which conduct wliicli is uni- versally repressed by crimiiiiil law can be perpetrated with impunily as against the nation that is gravely injured by the consequences of it. (tf — -'I'M* — cniirso (iiH I l)clii>v(t I ri'iiiarkod yoslci'diiy anil il is conslunlly lo Itc l)nnio ill iiiinil in ilciilin^ vsilli lliis |iri)j iisilioiu, in oriliM' lor ii tiiilioii lo nssi>rl ilsi>irii.t;;iinsl sinli romlni'l. it miisl lie liniii^lil iiili) Hit; ii'liiliun ul' it ilia! arises I'i'diii snslainin^' a si-riniis injury. In I hat ri>s|iiM:l, it diilVrs IVoiii lli iiiliTrorc arises ont ol' llio ri^lil of self-iiefeiice, anil Hie neci^ssily of self (iefenee. Now, Sir, a low words and l)nt a few words. I remarked tliat 1 aiM'cpl- ed my friend's sn^^eslion llial the doslrtndion of lliR Nowfoundland lisli liy dynamile would he nndieions. Kxleniiinatiii^; eritelly, harharily, eon- sliliiles all the nialire Ihal is neeessary. If llii'.t iiif^reilienl is wanting thai roiistilnles maliee — llial ronslilnles malicowilliin lhoran;;c of its delini- tion. Then! h e.r/irrss malire, and there is iiti/i/ird uuiWcv. There is ilirrr/ and there is imlirrcl. Like many other terms it has a hroadareeplation, and the le^^al aeee|ilaliiin is not neeussarily always the |io|inlai' ai'i'e|itation. I rare not to add this element of maliee — il is not my arf;iimonl — il is nol the ^^riiiind that I havi< |iiil this iipoii — I only say that my friend is strii^- ^lin^; to tind some answer to th(!se points why sni'li a tiling would he mali- I'ioiis. I say, if /V is malieioiis, Iliis is; and in the same sense llial tlial is iindoiihteilly l/iii'is. Now lake Hie sugi^eslion made in Hie course of Iliis arfiiiment (hy whieh I wasstriieki hy Senator Morfinn. Suppose inslead of eriiisin^- ahoiit Ihe sea fjenerally, jiivinj,' these animals what they please to eall a " sportin;,' ehaiiee" — land we shall see exaelly wlial thaleomes to when wo come to Hie evidence; sve shall sim' what the Itrilish idea, so far as my friends speak for (ireal Urilaiii, is of a sporliiif; chance, and I should like lo commend it to the consideration of the iinmeroiis f;eiitlemeii in Kii^iand, who know somelhinf; ahoiil sporlsmanshipi — snppose thai these C.aiiadiaiis should think proper — I say " Canadians" suhject to cor- rection — I shall see how far tln^y are Canadian hel'ore I have done — sup- pose these si'alers were to estahlish a cordon of vessels jiisl outside of Hie '.) mile line, and lake every seal that came oiil in Hie very lirsl season, and hrinfiihe whole hnsiness to an end : Suppose [thai. Is thai malicious? W'l/iis pursuit is not malicious, is l/m/.' Why, if in ///(// ease, not in //lis/ Thev say : " We have no malice towards the llniled Stales' people. We are aflcr the skins of the seals, and we arc makin}; this protitahlo "; and Ihey would he making; il protitahle. There is, no iloiihl at all thai anv Heel thai would ^o and surround lliese islands so closely, if the Heel was all owned by one parly — I mean by one sealers' associalioii, whal- ever von call it — if you f;o and establish a cordon ofvessids outside Uie territorial liiic! in the water, and };el all Hie seals the very lirsl year, old and \ouii};, male and fi:ii::i! , ....1 nol leave until you have captured every- one, why, it would he protihible — il would \w hiri/vli/ profitable — ini- nivuwhi protilable, j'nr tliiil i/i'iir. Well, now, what do you say lo Hial? Is thai malicious? It is no more malicious than Hie killinj; of the seals, as ilis. II is no more cxlermination than il is if yon kill them in llio way — aiHo - lliiit llioy arc (loiiij; imw. Kxlcrminalinn is cxlorminalion. wIu'IIkt you fio llii'iv and (i|i('ii liri>, and cxIiMniinalc llii'ni all a! onco, or wlinllior yui cxlcrniiiiali' lin'in in a prrind lliid runs over liin-o or four scnrs. \Vi> shall si>i>. I sliidi jKiiid imiI, IViun llic liislnrv ol' all llicir rc-^nrls lliut llicsi' seals ever hail, how loii^ Ihi' pruccss ot'cxli'miiiialion lakes. Now, I ciKiiiire is il aiiv less cxli'miinalidn, liccaiisc il is spread over Ihreo or I'our years llian il'il was spread over lliice or lour niordlis? Isil any moro nudieiods when il is done I'or piin in Ihruo or four months Ihan when il is done for f;ain in lliree or four years? (Inlil my learned friemis can ad- vanci! siunc Iheoi'v ol' iulernalional law, n scieuci* of which Ihey are so fond — and after llie |iro|iositiuiis advain'cd in this case, if il wai- fair or courkMuis lo iissumc llial thai svas the cxlenl of Ihoir researches into iidcr- natioiial law — all Ihey could say if lliey desired — one would think Iheir foudiu'ss lor iuteruational law had sumcthiu^' of the nature of a lirst love ahoiit il that nii^ht cihiI upon lou^Mci|unintance — can they su^'^csl, have Ihey sugf^esleil, any lhe\w met hy Ihe prompt exercise, hy the (ioveiiimeul elfectcd, of this ri^hl o( self de- fence; and we know perfectly well that there is not a couidry in this world, Ihat has any of this niarini! or semi-marine properly which is Ihe foun- dulion of an ii\dusti'\ up(Mi its shores — there is nol a coiinlry in Ihe world uidcss il is the I'nited Stales, that would permil forcif;ners lo f,'o there and cxlerinitiate - lam uol now lalkiuj; ahonteven aparlicipalion — allow them to parlieipule in it except at the leasl, at Ihe very mosl, under Ihe llef;nlalions which arcestahlished for it. ItuI is Ihcroaconnlry lhal would permit this extermination, even lhou}j;h Ihe exierniinalion of some of those animals woidd nol he accompanied hy circninslanccs of ])arlicidar inhnmanily or liarharity to the animal itself? Now we have cited, Sir, quite a nundier of cases in the arpumenl, which al Ihis late slajje I shall take no lime lo remark upon — I merely advert lo them \i Mi|iporl ot a corollary of this general pi'oposilion, as I have conliiu'd viiil i have said on Ihe rif^ht of self defence lo the hif;li seas. \N'e hav(; i)>.si i.ibhul instances euoui;li, and cases enoufih, lo show Ihul il extend;- likewise to the territory of friendly nations if il is a neces- sity. Take Ihe case of Ihe " Caroline " in which (ircal l{rilain came lo the .\'ia};ara Hiver, eidercd aporl of thel-nited States laualionwith whom they were at pcjacc, where the law was in full cll'ectl, look a vessel out, burnt il, ran ilovei' the Kails. There aj;ain Ihe ([ueslion of the fipcrssili/, for lhal is the debatable qneslion. II is not easy for me to see that it was necessary — any uiore necessary than it is always necessary for a nation that is at war, or has a rebellion, to pursue its enemy into foreif;n poi'ts. Unl the debate thai ensued between Mr Webster and the |'ji;i;lish liovern- — ilfil — inonl oil lliiil siilijci't i-isci rinlli. and llicro i)j;jiiii llh- law llial llio llrilisli (■uveriiiiiciil iiivokiMl was n>iirissary It) llicir ilertMici! — I tiMild lianllv rail il war, it was lianllN llial it was a lilllo iiisif{iii- I -iiiil rcbi'liiiinaiid lanic to iKilliiii^ — llial had initliiii^ hfliiiid il -llial inifilil aiinosl liavi< Ihmmi |iiiliiowii liy llit> |i(ili('t>. Hiil wlialrvt'i- yon rail il, if it was iicccssai'v lo do this ad, why Ihcir i'i;;hl to iiivadu oviMi a Iricndiy tt-irilory of the I'liilcd Slates was ((iiK-cdcd. TIk; saiiit'in ivfiard III lhi;s(! Mexican eases - IIk; Amelia Island esiso s(!\eral of Ihosd discs — where llio (ioveriiinenl of the IJiiited Stales asserl'ul a rijihl lo f,'o over into loreij^n lerrilory and lireak iip nests of >'riniiiials — 'lure was no war — nesis of niaranders — which the conntry had failed to do either because il was not strong enough, or |irolialil\ hecanse it was not active ciioii(;li. Why in the di|iloiiiatic correspondence the richi to do thai was not only asserled. Inil was conceded, and no salisfaction "< ■'• was made or ever demanded in any case of thai kind. Itiil I mi^dit si y on llial siihjecl of the " C.iiroline " east; liefore leaving il, thai llie only outcome was the indiclmenl of Ihe Itrilish vi-ssel. ('.a|ilain .Mc Lean li think the name was), who ciiiiiiiiaiidcd Ihid e\|iedition tlieii, wimiI into Ihe American [tort and cut out thai vessel, and in doiiif; so a [tersoii was killed on Ame- rican Mv\. ('.a|itain Mc Lean was arrested and hroii^hl to trial in the I'liiled Slates (lirciiil Court, and he was ac(|uill(Ml. lie was tried before a very al)le,lu(lj;e, and I have never heard thai Ihe propriety of that acqiiillal was doubled. (If course he had commanded ;in expedition llial had killed a man, and of course there was no war betwinm him and his eoiintry and thai lo which this person belonged orwheri! the otfcnce was comiiiilled: but Ik; was acliiij; under the orders of his (lovernineiil, and the (ioveriiiiient was acting under the jiistiiication of what tliity claimed lo be a ii(M'i-;sily ; and if that iiecessily did not exist why thai was a mailer thai iiiiisl he discusseil belweeii Ihe nations, and lor which this Oflicer could iKil be made lUisponsiblt^ ; and therefore his acipiitlal not only took place, bill, so far as I kimw. il has always been a^irecd it was a proper acipiitlal : and il is allo^elher likely. I am pretty nearly warranted in sa\iu}{, that if the jury had been so far carried away bv any popular excitement as lo have convicted thai man under Ihe circiimslaiices, and if till,' learned (loiirt before whom he was arraif;iied bad approved the con- viction and afliriiied il. l\w I'liiled Stales (iovernmeiil would have iiiler- posed and pardoned the man upon tlu^ grounds I have slated. Now I do iiol refer specially, parlieiilarly, to what my learned friends have said aboiil these various cases, because lliey do not loiich the only poiiil upon which they slaiid in the exercise of self-defence. And w ■ come back on this liraiich of the case, and here I leave il except lo lake n|i these lads, and show lliaf what I have asserled in rcfjard lo Ibis eon- diicl and llu^se conseipiences is true, and is established overwhelmingly and completely by the evidence. I lake leave of the general pro|)osition ill sii|)poi'l of which Ibis evidence is advanced, as well as for its uses upon other branches and topics of llio case, by repealing thai il presents lo my iniiiil IIh< ri'iiciiil, llii' liniil. Ilii' ili'lcniiiiiiiliM- i'n(|nii'v nn llii'^ suit- ji'cl dl' llii> Iroi'iloin III' llii< MM : wlu'llicr or mil ((imincl nl' lli;il i'liiir;ir|i'r, iiml will) lliiisc ('(>ii'nii no v\'^\\\ wliirli ail' llii' i'l'siill 111' llii' rniirmTi'llI aj;n'i'liii'lll nl' llli' nalinlis - - il'llinsi' ail' ailn{ili'il. \\li\ IIk'ii, nl cnni'si', moans miisl In' ailn|i|ril as a |iai'l III' llir ii'iiuialiiiMs li\ wl'irli llu's I'aii In' I'anirii iiiln i'II'itI ; lii'iaii'-i' it llii' ri'i;iilaliiii|s ail' nnl ii inalliT ni' rif;lil, lln'ii II iirnrii'iiirnl nl' llii'iii wnillil iin| III' a inalli'lnl iii;lil . i'\i r|i| >-n jar as llii' aiirn'mi'iil nn whiill liir\ wiTi' Inmiili'il i;a\i' llii' lii^lil. In nlluT wniils, Mk' ri^lil In I'lil'iiiri' liii'iii wniilil slai\ii ii|inn llii' aj^rri'mi'iil , as lln' af;ri'rm('Ml wniilil slam! ii|inn llii' awai'il: Inil il' llir jiiil^nii'iil nl' llii' Tiilinnal --linnlii In' (as I aMliri|iali' il will lu' . Ilial llii-- i'i;;lil nl' |irii|i'rlinii nl its |irn|ii'i'l\ , nf ils inli'ii'sl . nf all llial il has iIuti'. rr^iili's in Ihi' I nili'il Slah'-. \\li\. iii\ iVii'Mil has well -aiil. Iliric i-. lln i|iii'slii(n alinnl liii' I'Mlniri'iiii'iil nl Ilia! ri^lil. W hal I'nr.' In llir lir-l |ilair. hi'ransi' lhi> i|ni'-linn is mil -niimilli'ii In Ihi- Tiiiuinal. In llii< si'rnml jilari'. Iii>raii-i' lin'al Itrilain has aiiii'i'.j in Ihi- I ri'alv In ahiih' li\ anil I'lil'mri' lln- awaiil ; ami il i- mil. In hi' as-iinii'il Inr a mniiii'iil. rilluT in Ihrnrx nr ii; i'arl, Ihal liial rmmli'v wnuhi fail In nlwri'vi' iU a^rrriiii'iil in Ihal rr-|ii'i| nnl I'nr a mnmi'iil. II wnnhl nlwiTxr il. I'lK'Hiri'iiinii'. sn|i|in--i' il iliii mil - - il' I am a I iihri'lx In -lali' a sii|>|insilinn. Ilii' vi'rv slalrnii'lil nf wliirli mii;hl nllliTw i-r lir ri'carih'cl as iii|nriiMis. win Ihi' ri^hl hoiim ilrrlari'il il is sii|i|)cinii|i'i'l aimiit uiiirh iii\ li'anii'il I'l'irmls lia\i' iiail sn nians alarmini; iii'niinn-liralinii-. aimiil liir riuiil nl' srairli. liii' rii:hl nl' Iliis, ami I ill' riuht nT liial . Ihal i- a i|iirs|inn w inch I ri's|ii'rirn||\ -.a\ . a- tar as I't'^anl- Mil' riaini nl ri;;hl. Ilii> Trihiinai ha- nnliiin^ al all In tin willi. W ii.il Ihi' iiiraiis ail' |i\ whiili siirli rij^hls air I'lilmri'il wIutc il is Hi'i'i'-sar\ In I'lilni'i'i' Ihrin. il is nnl \ri'\ ilil'lirnll 111 Iiml mil riniii Ihi' oslalilisin'il |ii'ailii r nl nalinn- in all mu li I'a-i'-. Il wniilil In- a \i'r\ liilli- cnll IhiiiLi In Iiml mil jnsi hnw far n.iliniis lia\i' lirrii arrnslnmril In i;n. ami hnw far il is ni'ii's-arx In f:n. lull lluil is i n| a i|ni'sliiin llial iifnl Irmihli' Us liiTi'. W I' liaM' I'lmiiuh In rnn-iiliT w itiimil .uninu ahrnail allrr (|iii-linns Ihal aiv nnl in lln- rasi-. Now In rnnii', Sir. a- lasj as I ran In llir |iarliriilar I'arls Ihal lii'lnnu In llii' a|']liralinii nl' Ihi- nlisinn- ;>ml iiiiivtTsal inlr In Ihis ru-r. I ii.ivr a--nmi'il what I have -aiil In hr Inii'. I liavr assri Iril llin-r rnmli- n(i:i lidiN ill livin;; Id ii>;,-.'rl;iiM wliiil llii< riih' o!' hiw vviis — f Imvc ns^iTlcd ""' '■"lldilicill^ llh'il iuv uv,;'K^n\-\ I iikc llic riil( 'l|i|i|j<'illil(<. If is ,„„. Iliiiif; Id .'sliil.jisii ;, nil,. ,1, an iil.slnirl oiii' iipuii n liy|MillH'lii'a| ,aM.; i| is •I'l'l'- fiMollirr Ihiii^ I,, a|,,,K II, a( ,|,|,. j,, ||„, ,,arliriilar rasr hy imiviiif,' "•III III'' ioii(lili,,iis nil \\lii< h III!' rule ivslsiirc nciiiiiiiii jiimI Ik-I.iiih Iu ||ii> I'iisi- iinili'i' I'dMsidi'i'ailiiii ^u\\ ill |Im> jirsl |»liicc h'l inr diNir ;i\vii\ two or llnvc |i(iiiils Ihal iin- \>n>'(. Ill lliclirsl |.!ii(T lliis is ii milinnal iiilcivsl - un inli'icsl llnil li.- imiUS lo Ili(> liovi'rilliM'llI ol'llii' I iiih.(| Sillies iis n i/nrrr/uiin,/, iiiiil ik.I, lo ils peoj.],-, ,.v,e|,| -,„ lar as s,„i I' ils rili/ens limy nilrr iiilo u roii- liiKl Nsilh llie Covrrniuciils |o ei,-a;;e in il. Tlir islands uere |miicIi;immI '''■'"" ISi'-^^if. It> an \rl n[ (:,,n;;rcss (|l.;:l i ailinlol lo llie oilier diiy,, llii'V me sel ;i|iiirl ior ihe Ii,>i |||||s In'rij ,>( seals. Iliev lire iieiilier sold lis llie (ioverniiieiil lands ;ire ;;eiier;illy sold. ii,,r iire llieN niiide o|ii n (o Clllry or sellleis, lis hnds have heell lai-ely upe I in |||e Iniieil Sillies, iiiiiler ceriain .'oiidilions. They ;iie reserved. ,\e|s id' Congress ''■'^''" ' 'I I'ilssed uhieh my IVieiid look ihe ironhle lo ^,. ||iroil^;li iiiiil lo liiiiiil "III I" IIm' Tril.iiii.d - II serie-.(d' A.is o|' ( ;.Mi-re.s lor Ihe pridec^ li'||i"ii id' ihe iiidiisiry; lor iilioNvin- Snjieriiiiendeids mid .dliccr-- iip- jxHiiied hy ihedoverniiieni iiiiij jiiiid hv Ihi' (loMMiinienl lo reside Iheiv; miiKinjilhe Killiii-orhMiiide seals eriniiiiiil, ,n'ihe Killin^t oliinv seids hv lire iirilis; IVslrielin- Ihe llliniher which Ihe je^se,.. .,1 Ihe (■overilllH.||| mij;lll illlve; eiii|io\\erin^ Ihe Seerelms (dihe Tlenslirv Irniii lime lo liiiK! I" ri'iliii'i' llinl niiniher as lar iis Ih,' inleresls of ihe preMivMlion ol'ilie '"'•■'' "I'niil n'(|iiiiv Ihi' liviii- a lieveniie hir Ihe (ioveriiiiieiil di'iivcd "III (d'lhe proceed, ,d' Ihe illdllslrv, direelK or indireeiU, sshieh is (|llili> lmt;e. Ihe lii'seniie di^rivi'd hy Ihis Cnvernnieiil iiiidiM' llii^ iiDriniii coii- 'llli'ill «f lllillf^s under Ihe preseiil leases mid preseiil iirrmi;:eineiils, is !i 'i'illi"ii 'iii'l ■■< ijMmler dolhir,, vvjiieh all ■;oe, |,, the (iov<.rimienl. W hiii llu'lesMM's iiiiiKeoiil of il is made hy |.ros,.euliii- ihe indii-lrv as oilier • ■iiiployes do; and vvlial ih,. poor Indians make oui (d' il, i- a heller siih- sislenee lliali iliey hiae had hel'ore. \u; al, least boUer than my fi}!;iires, irnolliiii}!; clso can lio said lor il. They have owned it I'lir - loiii;, cites stulislics on page 7'.) ol llie Isl vidnme of the Appendix to liie llritisli Case. They are those thai I referred lo yester- day, lie then says on paj;(! HI : Tlic sfiil, aMi|>liilil<>i|.., |iiilyi;;iiiinii>, ;iii(t iiilclliLTi'ii! iis IIk^ lieavcr, lias always -iipplicit 111!' lar^ri'sl iiiuIIlikIc ol liiis Id llic llu-siaii Coiniiaiiv — who. as we see, liad the monopidv (d' it under liussia. II is s|;i|(m| in the (lase what the revenue of that Company was. I read il from Mr liiaine's letter tor eoiivniience sake in paj;(^ 2(>ll of the lirsl American .Vppeudix sliowing what the value cf this had heen lo the llnssian .Vmerican Compauv . .Mr lUaine says : lis allairs were Vk-\A socicI lur a long lime, lail arc iiuwaccinalcly txiiuwii. itie i 1 ti;i noes ^litlcil iliu iiionoy ailvaiicod forlliu capilal shirk ,,r ih,. Company al its upcniii-in I7!MI arnouu- ti'd |(» I 'j;iS7iii niiililos. Tluj^ross sales of lui's ami skins liy llii' Cdnipany al Kuiliak and Canlim IVoni Ihal (lalo up to 1820 aniounlod lo iOOit(i!i.S roulilus. Tlio not i)n)lil was 7 tiS;i (MM) ronhlos for tliu 'Jl years — over ii-H) per .onl lor llic wlndi; pt'rioil, oc nearly :ilt per cent ;('■(• tiiinum. Iteviewinj: Ihese facts, Itaner,)!!, in his History ,d' Alaska, a standard work of exliuuslive research, says : We find lliis pcjwerliil niiiiiujhili/ lirnily eslaliiisln'd in the lavdur ol' llie Imperial (loverniuonl, many nohles of hi-h rank and several mumliers of ihe Itoyal Family hein- amon^' llie slock holders. 111! dlos liiosu lifiiii'cs lofii (lillenMil piirposo — ii purpose for wliicli I rd'crred (o some of llicin yosliM'diiy — !i> shewing; (lie exireme iiiipro- Ijiibilily Unit lliissiii would inive Ihrowu open lo Ihe world liiiil monopoly wilhoul heinj; iuviled. Tlinlis dowu lo IS20. liul 17 years more elapsed itel'ore Ihe coutilrs was purcliased hy (he (loveriimcnl of (he Culled S(ales? IVoui 1821 lo ISil (he -ross revenue was (11 millions oCrouhles, of wliieh (he m;! prolils were H.'liMKlOO rmdiles. Trom IHI2 (o IH()2, live years before the cession, Hk; j;ross rexemie was T.'i 77(1 (10(1 roubles, and the iie( prolils wciv I(I2I(I(MMI roubles. II appears from Ihat (hat the prolils were no( oidy enormous, (he dividends enurmous, l)u( Ihat itajiprc- cialed all llie way Ihrougb downloa time wilhin livi' years of the purchase; under the (irsi lease (he s(ockhol(lers made .'}(l per' ceiil per annum |)roli(, imder (he second lease ."i.') per ceni per annum ; under Ihe (bird lease i.'i per cenI per annum. I was incorri'( I in saying i( (|uile apprecialed all the time. The President. - Was (hal f;ross prohl, or ne(? Mr Phelps. — Net prolil. The President. — After having paid Ihe (lovernmeiil dues.' Mr Phelps. — Ves. That is (be business that we purchased; ami as I said when you contrast i( with every (bin;; else we have ever done (here since, widi all (he resources and inf;enui(\ and enlerpriso of .American people (here is notliin-a( all. Now, I have said ami (his is all I d(>sire (o call allenlinn (o; I cannot dwi'll (oo lonj;- upon Ihis , Ibe way Ibal i( came (o pass (hal (he .\nK'rican (lovernmeiil b(iujili( Ihis. was by anenlerprise se( on fool by cerlain .\me- ricans lo have (he (loveriinieul ac(|uiri' il lor Ihe sake of ■:(dlini; an iiile- re.>-! in (his imporlaiil liiisine~>. I'erhaps. Sir. its (he last words before tite adjoiiriimeni, and as j sjndl nol n.'ad much, I may read Ihis fnun Ihe ls( volume of (he Appendiv lo Ihe llrilish case, pajie iil. Shortly al'lci wards speakinf,'of ii memorial lo the i'lvsidenl which was referred (o Ihe Se- cretary of Stale, by whom il was comnmnicided (o .M. de Sdeekl. wi(li remarks on (he subjecl : Shortly .illi.rwards aiiollier iiijlnenee was lell. Mr Cide, wlio nad Ihm'ii recently elected to Ihe .s.'iiati' Irom Cililornia, actinji in beliall' ol' cert.iin persons in that Slate, socjiJii hi obtain from the Itiissian (iovenunenl a license or franchise lo gather lurs ia a portion ol its .\mericaii possessions. — I'ltili — Mr Cole evidently was iiol awai-c llial lie had taken all these I'urs wilhout any license. The CliiuliT ol' llic Hiissi;ui-Aini'i'iran('.oiii|iaiiy\vas alimil In expire. TliisCoin- panv hail alieaily iiiiili'i'li't In (lie Iludsim Hay ('oinpany all its IVancliisi! mi the iiiaiiilaiid lielween .'il" iO' and Mniiiil-Sl-Klias ; and now il was pin|iosud that an .Vmei'ii'aii Cnmpany, holiliiii; direid IVoni llie llnssiaii (invernnienl, slionid lie siilisli- Inti'd lor the laller. Tlio nii.::!ily llucNoii liay (".cinipany, with its hcad-ipiarlers in liondiin, was In ^ive way In an .Vnicrican Cdinpany, willi its head ipiarU'r-. in C.ali- I'ornia. Anion;,' the loiters on this snhjecl addressed to Mr Cole, and now hel'oie me, is one dated at San-Kraneisco, the lOlh .Vi»ril, IStili, in which this scheme is de- veloped as follows. There is al the present time a .uo.kI liianei^ lo or^ranize a Knr Tradiiii; (".omiiany to trade helween the United Slates and the llnssian possessions in America, and as the (^.harler I'ormerly ^iranled to tln^ lliulson Itay Company has expired this would he the opportniie moment lo star! in. 1 should think that hy a lillle niana;;emenl this Charter eonld he obtained from the li.is.-iai< (iovernment for onrsidves, as I do not think they are vi'iy willing,' lo retiou I '!erof Ihe Hudson Hay Comiiauy, and 1 think they would ^'ve the prefeiei. ii American Company, esperi.illy if the Company should pay lo (he llnssian C > imieiil 5 per cent, on Ihe gross proceeds of their transactions, and also aid in civiliziiivt and ameliorating Ihc condition of Ihe Indians by employing missionaries, if reijuired hy the Uussian Covernment. I'or the faillifnl performance of the above we ask a Chailer for the term of twenty-live years. Senator Morgan. — Wlial is tiie date of liial? Mr Phelps. — That is daleil in IHCiC. The President. — II is I'roni .Mr Sumner's speech I understand. Mr Phelps. — II is laivcn IVoni .Mr Sumner's speech; hut the letter IIimI ! referred lo was Ihe lOlli .Vpril, ISOO, and is citeil by .Mr Sumner. Then a little farther down tliere is tiiis : .\nidlier corres[iond(Mit of Mi' Cole, imdei' d-ile of ."^an I'raneisi'o, liie IVth Sep- tember, IStiti, wrote as lollows : I have lalked with a man who has been (.n Ihe coast and in Ihe trade for len years past, and he says il is nuuli mon' valuable llian I have supiiosed, and I think It very impoitani lo olilain it if possible. The llussian .Minister al Washington, whom Mi Cole saw repeatedly upon this sulijecl. was not authorized lo acl, and the latter, after conference with Ihe Dcparl- iiieiil of Stale, was indticeil to address Mr Clay, Minister id' Ihe United Stales at St-Petersbiirgli, who laiil Ihi' apidiealion before Ihe llussian Coveriiment. 'I'bis was an iniporlani slc|i. A Irller from .Mr (Uay, dalrd al Sl-Pelersburgh as lale as thc> 1-1 li'bruary, ISii", make- Ihe lollowlng icveliilion : " The l(n-sian (i(jvrinmriil lias already ceded away ils rights in llnssian .\meriia for a term of yais, ami IIh' ltii->o-Ameriean Company has also eided Ihe same to the Hudson Hay Comiiany. This lease exjiircs in Juni' next, and Ihe ProsidenI of Ihe lliis^o- Ameiieaii Company Idls me llial llle> have been in eoiiespondence with Ihe Hudson Itay (Company alioiil a renewal of Ihe lease for anothei' term of his pruddccs- sor. TUnv. is reason to lielievc, also. Ihal (he adminislralion ol (he Fur Company had nid hern cnlindy salisfaclory, so thai Ihcro wore wcll-ronrHlrd hesilalions wilh rct;ard to llie renewal of ils franchise. Meanwhile, in Ueloher INtiti, M. de Sto'cUl, who had Ion;; heen Iho llussian .Minisler at Washinf:lon, and enjoyed in a hi.di de-ree the eontidence of our (iovernnicnl , rel urnud lionie ( >n a leave of ahsenee, promising his hest cxerlions to promote ^'ood ndalioiis hetween ll](! two eountries. .\s is suggested to nie, he is llio one to whom Mr Cole lirst applied. While he was at SI-l>etorshiirgh the appliwilions from the Uidted Stales were under eonsideration; hul the Hussian (ioMwunieut was disin(diued to any minor arranjiemeut id' llie charaeler [U'oposed. Thai is In execute a lease to the .Anioi'ican parlies who wauled i(. Ohviously srm' 'dnir like a erisis w.is at liand wilh re-ard lo tln'se ixjssessious. The exislin.L'- ^idvernnient was not adeipiate. The IVanehises -iranlod there were ahout lo leiininale. Somijlhin;; musi lie done. As .Mr. de Sloeckl was leavin" in l'(du'muy lo return to Ids post, the Archduke Constantiue, the brother and chief adviser of the Kmpcror, handed him a map with the linos in our Treaty marked upon it, and hihl him he nii-hl treat for this cession. The Minister arrived in Washin^'lon early in March. .\ ne^(jcialion was opened at oiu'e with our (iovern- meid. iMual instrnetiiuis were received liy the Atlantic cable from Sl-l'i'li'rshur;:h (01 the ilHh .Man h, and at t o'clock on the morning of the 'ioth March this impor- tant Treaty was si.yued by Mr Seward on llii' part of Ihi' United Slates, and hv .\1. de Sloeckl on Iho pari of Kussla. And ill the Treatv, as you will renieiiihor. Hie United Stales gave 7,2(10,000 dollars; and Ihe returns which they have received since that from their purchase, are very much beyond of course, you will see from the statement I made a lillle while ago, the original purchase price ; and this means Ihal llie whole idea, and Ihe whole ncgotlalion which stihsc- (picntly resullcd in (he Iransfer of these islands lo Ihe United States, was started in California hy Ihe parly (d Americans who lirsf set out (o got a contract or charter or lease or something of Ihal Kind from the Itussiaii Company lo cnahle them to take Ihe prolils id'lhis industry ; and prcssiim that home upon llic iliissi.iii Coinpaiiy. it liiially nialiired — ripened into a pi'iiposilion locedc llie whole coiiiilry (o Ihe I'niled Slates which was carried into cH'ecl. Thend'ore llic fur-seal iiidnstrv was nut onl\ all that gave that province any value then, or has given it any value since — it was Hie main inducement and Hie real origin of the entire purchase. [The Tribunal here adjourned for a short time.] Mr Phelps. — I caiiiiol help saying, sir, allhough it does no good Id say it llial I Know of, Ihal I feel very sensibly how wearisome and fali- guiug the i»rolongalionof this discussion must be lo gentlemen who have been so Ion;; absorhcdwilli il. \nIiu liiivo lislcnod lo soiuiicli, iimlwlio may well Itc .sii|)|)nso(l lo l)o as lirotl of lliis hiisiiu'ss as 1 am, and il is iin|)os- sihlc llial lliov could In' inoi'o so. Still, lli('rear<' farls in this case that I iun not al liheiiy to pass over; I should ho ^lad to consnll the l'eclin!;s ol' the Tribunal, and I should hcjilad to consul! in\ own: hut I must deal with them to some cxicnl because they have hecii Ihesidijecl (d' scvet'al weeks aniuiadvcrsioii on the oilier side, and we do not l'c(d llial we arc juslilied in leaving; Iheni wilhoul observation and reph . iMy learned friend desires me lo say. sir, or su;;jiesled lo mc that 1 shoidd say thai, in the ligures which 1 addi'cssed lo \ou this moi'niu}; just before Iheadjournnicnl showinj; the value of this i)usiness to the liussian American Couipany, the fur business there iiududed all the fur-j)earinj; animals as well as fur-seals. And that is quite true and 1 chcerfidly make the (|ualilication. iiul il should be iiddedlhere was certainly of late years very little of Ihe fiu'beai'iug industry c\ce[)t the fur-seal, and al a very early period there were a jiood many olliei- animals. .Now, I want very briefly, bavin;;' pointed out wbal tins industry is and who il belonpts to, on the part of the United Slates (iovcrument |o nolicc who are the parlies with whom we arc conlendin^'.' Who are llw^ pela- gic sealers? Like so many olhcr (picslions in this case, il is easy lo say Ibal il is of no cousecpience, and pei'haps il is a minor ])oinl, bid il has been of suflicienl ini|)or!ance to be |iresenled with considei'able force and eirect by my learned friend, Mr Holiiusou. W'c call this an Inlernalio- nal Arbitralion; ami il is an Internalioual .\rbilrati(Ui s<( far as the parlies lo il areconcerncd. What is il in its objecl and ils ell'ecl ? Arc we con- lending with (ireal lirilain.' Why, U(d al all. We shoidd have selllcd Ibis long aj;o in Ihe very oulsel vvilli (ireal Urila'n; and the business iu- lercsl of Great Hrilain. ov of Kngland. arc largely concerned and inleresl- cd in 111.- preservaiiuu of Ihis seal herd. There ai'e 10. (Mid people there tbal are engaged in Ihc manid'aclure of llnisc I'ms. II is the head qiuir- Icrs for the sale of Ihe furs all over Ihe world; the commerce of Ihe coun- try is largely engaged in il. Voii have heard Ihe remonslrances against the deslrucliou of the seal addressed b\ leading men engaged in Ihis busi- ness before Ihis controversy arose. — jjcfore Ihe I nilcd Stales a|)proa- cbed il. Well, then what is oui' dispute willi (ireal lirilain? Then, when you come lo Canada, what (piaricl have we with Canada, that great and growingand abounding Province, — perhaps the largest territory in the world under one (iovernmeni, if you lake ils dimensions.' What have wc in dispute really with our neigidiour, — the I'l-ovince of Canada, with whom ilis md only our iideresl lo beat peace, but the interest of mankind Ibal we should he al peace? The world does not always loidv in the right quarter in ils prognoslicalions of those mislorluni's in Hie shape of lios- lililiesliutl I hope md so much aie to hi- anticipated as some people seem to think. Why, il is one place; one little town, \icloria. llial is concerned in this business. I do md se(- that Ihe rest of Canada has any inter- est in il. Here is a little knot ispeaking now of Ihe Canadians and I — -Jii;'.! — sliiiU Vi'Wv in II moniPiil Id IIu> Aiiioriciiiis) orpooplc in Vidoriii who Imvi' gone iiilo lliis hiisiiicss and aIio iiro, wlial I do no! mean porsonally, I Imvcno allack lo make npon llieni porsonnallyjor I know nothing altoiil llicni, —I merely wani (o jioiiil oul it is a casual, a s|»'iidalivo, a Icmpo- rary iiMsiness, in wliidi the invcslmiMit is small, the husiness is small, Iho prolils are precaiions, sometimes lar-i-iml still preeai'ioiis, as all such pursuits miisl h(>, and \\hieli is inevilahly, if we are rifjht about this being doslructive, lcmporar\. Now in the Ameriean ease, page 2H'i, there arc a low words that I wish to read because the anlhorily for them is given there : Consul Myers, in a re|mrl t,. Hi,. Slate llei.arliiicnl, j.qves tlu. n.cupation of sevonty-iiiir hwihts df seaiing vessels liailinj; I'nini Hie porl ol' Virloiia. (If llieso only fniulci'ii may be said U, hr .l,.|i(.|i,liMit en sraliiif;-, and Iwclve oIIhts wlio aiv cMipleyed in niaillhne cnliTiiiises. Tlie remainder are composed of inilividnals i^n^iKed in various pnisnils. Among Hie list may hr I'onml several puliiie (.riiiiais, -cvi.n j,'n)cers, a dnig-isl, an auctioneer, a laniicr, llirue sal.Kin kee|,ri>, a plaslner, an iu.-ur c a-viit, (wo iron fonnders, lliree real cstalr a,i:vnls a eairiap. niaunlaeturer, a (aniicr, I wo wonu'u, a machinist, and others of dill'crent imrsiiits. Thai is Ihcstatenionl, and I refer the Tribunal lo iieriise, what 1 can- not take the time lo piu'iise, the authority itself for this slalement. Lord Hannen. — I suppose those are the shareholders of the shijis. That is just the same thing whii' liiinilrpil sisals earli; unr silioonor, willi a rTi'w nl Iwi'iil.v-iiiiio iiioii, look 1ml (iiiu Imiiilicil ami sixlv-liiiii' seals, wliili' aiinlljiT, wjlh a cii'w of iwcMily-two iiitMi, Inuk dvei' lliifc lliiiiisand. In INIM) llic same vaiialimi iiiav lii' scimi. Id Is.sit llif avoi-a^'c selling' prico ol' skins in Vicloria was S'.i),';, On llio ralch of ono hiiniliod anil sixly-l'iuir seals, Ilic-rcI'dii', lln' hilal ii'c'civi'il wonlil he ,*fl .'J.M.iiO, of which al least .StOO wonld liav" In lie paid In llie hiinlers. And so Oil. 'I'his is |iiirsiic(l lliroii};li several |iaj;i's rnrllici' and I do iiol lalu' up your linn; lo road il. I jiisl ask alloiilioii lo il. I(. sliows thai llie iiivosluiont is small, (lio business speculalive, and the profils alloficlinM' precarious. .\ow, anollicr lliiiig appears and I cannol pass il willioul referring lo it : and thai is llie e\leiil, wliieli woidd have come before you on llie elaini of daniaj;('s llial was orifjiiially snbniilled in Ihc Urilish Case ifilwasnol wilhdrawn, to which llicse vessels are owned in whole and in pari, by th(> persons 1 have staled, — Ihe exicnl lo which Ihey are owned by Ameri- cans, who could nol pursue Ibis business lawfully, so far as iJehriiif; Sea is concerned, alany rale in their own counlry, wilhout being criminally liable and bavin;;, therefore, to gel vessels registered in the names of l!ri- tish siibjecls so thai Ihey can engage in this business. This evidence was brought together in llie United Stales Counter Case in answer to the claim for damages. That is Ihe purpose for which il was gone into, in order to show thai of the vessels for which Ihc Hrilish (iovernmenl demanded conipensalion, a considerable share were owned by Americans and the lacls that are brought out in that 1 will brielly refer lo. Sir Charles Eussell. — I would jioiiil out to my learned friend Ibal this is nol a point thai we have gone into nor is il relevant, I should sug- gest lo the Tribunal, that my learned friend siiouhl go into it now. Mr Phelps. — We went into il in Ihe Arguuienl and in the Counter Case. Sir Charles Russell. — I would only say that I shall claim the rigid lo be heard on this if I consider il imporlanl that my learned friend should be answered upon il. I think il rigiil lo give Ihal warning biil I should ask him to considci' if il is relevant alter Ihe statement he has jnsl made. Mr Phelps. — Thai is a consideration lo be discussed when il comes up. If! wore introducing new points I slnnild nol feel myself at libeiiv to do so. bul if I did il would raise a qiuislion as lo right to be heard in rc|)ly. The fads and evideiici' alluded to are in Ihe Case: Ihey are in Ihe Counter Case, and the very lino of suggestion Ihal I am now upon is in the printed Argument of Ihe Ciiitod States, il is in our case, evidence. Counter Case, and printed argumenl. If my learned friends, in the month or two Ihal Ihey have spent in llie argument of this case, did not think proper lo go into il, Ihal is their all'air and not mine. 1 am not precluded from adverting to what is in the Case and in Ihe Arguments before. Whether il was noticed by .Mr Cou- — -JITI — (Icrl or nol, I do iiol romomber. My learned friend, Mr Carter, did nol iinderlakc lo deal willi liie evidence; bnl I am reuiindod that my learned friend, Mr l{oi)inson, did discuss i(, and called npon (he Tribunal (o pro- tect Iho interests of liiesc jieopio, some 1000 odd, that were engaged in this business— that il was very important to Canada, and tiial it was a rijiht upon the sea that must not be interfered with. If tiiat is deemed pertinent by my learned friends, am I not at liberty to reply lo il? Senator Morgan. —And lias (ho Trii)nnal. Mr Phelps, to decide all these facts outside the case, or completely to submit to the views of Coun- sel about any facts submitted to us by the Treaty'.' Mr Phelps. —I suppose that the damages are out of the case. Sir, and I do not allude to that. I only allude to evidence that was brought inlo the case and which was used in the argument on the point I am now sug- gesting. Lord Hannen. — I would ask you (o consider if it is of sufdcient importance lo dwell upon it? Consider how long we have been here. If there only remained but one man, not an American, (he principle would be (he same. We should nol be able to refuse lo consider (he principle of law simply because there were lew people. Mr Phelps. — I am very willing, pressed by (he consideration I have adverle.l lo a lillle while ago, to omil anything and everything if it would be the choice of the Tribunal. I have felt —sitting hero after two months have been exhausted by the arguments on (he odicr side in which these considerations and every other have been dealtwith — I did not complain: it was the right of my learned friend, and il was not for mo lo complain — bill 1 fell that when at last I should l)e called upon (o repiv over nil this groiMid llial ! shoulil labour under the embarrassment which I feel now of addressing a Ti'ihunal thai is n((erly wearied of the whole subject . Senator Morgan. — I hog leave lo protest againsi the enlire Tribunal being wearied by Ihe consideralion of Ihis question. Lord Hannen. —And I did rio( ind'ud. of course, to express any opi- nion of dial sor(. II was merely for your consideralion. Mr Phelps. — I am sure of i(. my Lord: and 1 did nol wish (o dwel' on anunnocossary point. The President. — (;er(ainly, il is nol a weariness. It is a matter lo he taken inlo consideralion, any savin;; Ihal all In^ was uIiduI Io call allciitiitii lo wonhi have been malci'ial if llie (|n(!slion ol' daiiia^cs had liccn ^ono iido; iinl as Ihal was wilhdiawn, he did no! Iliiidv il necessary In dwell iipDii il, I poinled out Ihal we lur Ihal I'eason, hec!insi- Hie i|neslinn was wilhdrawn, had nnl ^'one into lln; lii|ii<'. We do in)l, oi'coui'se, adniil Ihe su^Hoslion of the Itiitish ilaf; hein^; used lo jn'otecl American cili/.cns; hiil I am I'cally sorry that I interposed, as it has taken all Ihis lime lo explain. The President. — .No; l)nl it seems to me lliat wo. are wasting' lime alioiH we do not exactly know what. Mr Phelps. — There is nothing I shall say here, sir, Hk; perlinonce ot'\\hi(di lo this case will m)l ho perl'ectly ap|)ar(;id to anyhody who does mt^ the honoi' lo hear mo. There is oiU)ii|;li lo ho said inside tin; case wilhonl ^oin^ out of it. II is not my custom, I am onlitled tosa\,tof;() ontsid(> ol'any case Ihal I am conciM'rKMl in discussing. I have; Ixion loo long cnga^^'d in advocacy al llio Bar nol In luivo loariiod lliat Ihal is nei- Iher proper nor prolilahlo. 1 iiavc said nolliinf; yd that is nol directly |)erlinent, as far as I am capable of understanding il. In the issue in Ihis case. That I do mil propose In do, hut I must lake one of two allerna- lives. I must cilher sit down, which I should he most happy to do, for I am str'Ui;,i;lin^' unihM'gi'oat personal disadvantages in trying lo cari-y on a discussion tor wliicdi I am not physically lit, or, il' I am to pursue it, I musi pursue il in my own way, and consider any and every topic thai siMMiis lo mo malci'ial thai the Trihiiiial. who are going to decide this case, should lake into consideration, 'i'liat is the gi'(Uiiid on which I shall stiind. 1 shall nol only lake the liherty lo reply loanything that is impor- tant enough In ho said i^n the oilier side, if it has any hearing hut will lake llio lihoiiy to discuss any point ortjucstinn that has hecii made fin Ihis case, so Ihal it has heiMi open to the consideration ol' m\ learned Iriends on Hk^ other side. What I was alioul to say, and what I should have linishod long ago, it' I had nol heeii inlcrrnptod, was in rrlalion lo what I have pointed out as to Ihe charaolcr of lln; Canadian sealers, Ihal a large niimlier of llioso vessels are of .ViiKM'ican ownership, registered in Canada, so as to ho enlilled lo the |irolection of the lirilish ! ,. and un- der Ihal ting llicy are (Migiiged in carrying on a husiness w!ii' !• !lio law of tlioir ronntry forliids. I say Ihal that is a material consideralion when you are determining the point Ihal I have heen trying lo discuss, how far t ho freedom of llio sea jnslities Ihe conduct which is acliiaily in (pieslinii in lliiscas(\ The vessels thai I refer lo are the "llornton ". Ihe'Miraeo", Ihe ".Anna licck", and Ihe" i>olpliiii ", which an> sleam schooners; Ihc " Sayward ", the " Caroline", the " Tatli Kinder ", llio '• Alfreil Adams ", Ihe" Hlack itiamond", and Iho " Lily". Those wereinwiiole or in part — — 1171 -- Niiii will find lliisrcrorivtl In iil |»af;i' l.'td of I he Coiinlor Caso ol'llu' riiilci' Sliili's — the |ii'a|ii'rly ol' cili/ciis mI' IIic riiilod Sliilos. Till' ^li'.llll srlimilicrs '/'liiiniliiii, (lrtici\ .\ii)iii /Inl;, mid Doliiliiii mill iilM> li:ilt' 111' llir scluiiiiiiT Siii/ir:iril wi'li' iiwiiril liy oiiii .liisi'|i|i lt(i!.rii«il/.. ;i rili/.i'ii ul' lliii I'liilnl Sink's; lliiil JaiiU'S Oini^las WarriMi, IimvIidhi' iinini) llii' riaim is iiiaiii' as III llii' >li'aiii srhiiiiiii'i' Tliiiniluii, liail im rral iiilrii'sl lln'rciii, liiil llial lliii siiriii> was iiiiirl;,'af.'i'il 1(1 liiT I'lill valiiu In Jiisi'|ili iliisi'iiwil/., wlm was In larl IIk! icul iiwiiit: ami llial Tlmiiias II. (jiii|iim'. In wlmsr iiaiiii' llic rialiiis ^'inwiii;: mil nf llii' sri/.uics III' I ill' SI' hill nil T 11'.-/'. Siii/ininl aiiij nl' llii' slraiil srlniiiin'i's linirr, Ih l/iliin, anil AiiiKi Iti'il; air niailr. hail in larl im inlcii'sl IIiimtIii ami has in mi irs^ii'i I Im'imi ili'niiiiliril or siislainiMl loss liy I in' si'i/.iiii's llu'ii'iil', rilhrr as iivMirr fil'lhiisi' i.rliuiin ri's ami sliil 111 liicir lull valui' lo Josi'pli lloscnwil/, alioM' rrli'iri'il In, and haviii},' hiTii cnn- Vi'Vi'il 111 'I'hiinias II. Cniipci', wiliimil innsiili'i'nlinn, I'or lliu snln [iiirpuso ol' }ilviii^' thrill a ii'nisliN as Hiilish vi'ssi'is. I! h also in^isli'il liv Ihr rnili'il Slairs llial llii' si'lniniii'i's ('(irdlino ami /'nl/i/iii- I'l'r VM'i'i' in Tail al lin' liiiir ol llir liiiir of liuMi' si'i/.uii' nwnril liy nm^ ,\.-.l. lli'chlil, llliMi a cili/.i'i. dl' llic (inilril Slalos, ami llial William .Mnnsii' ami I'li'ili'iirk Cai'iii' ill wlinsu iiaiin.s tin' I'laiiiis I'ur ilaiiiajrcs };i'owiii}; <>iit uriliii si'i/.iii'i'S ur llii!.si> .si'lionn- rrs aio niailr, hail in I'acl mi ititiMi'sl in Mii> si'liiiuiii'rs iii' Ihoir iiiiUils anil ralclii's; llial llii! scliiiuliei's Alfred Ailnnix, lllaik Diiinmnd, anil /.ih/.Uil llii' si'i/.urr of wliirli riaiiiis arc inailr in llii' schi'iliili', wi'i'i> in I'acl, al Ihi' linn' liii'y writ' si'izwl, uwiicil li,\ oiii" .\. I''ranl\. who was llii'ii a lilizi'ii nl Ihr I'liilril Slati's; llial (Inliiian, in \\ hosy iianio llir srliooiu'i' " .Ml'i'cil .\ilaiiis " was ii';.'isloii'il, was mil llir ailiial owiirf of IIm' si'liiiniii'l', hor oiillll — ami so on. The President. — Von ar^iic llial only as a moral cor-^idoralion. II diu's nol I'lian^o llicicfial poini of view. Mr Phelps. — II dors nol rlian^o llio lcj;al poinI of v 'o the }jen- I'lal proposilions llial have liri'ii advancnl, Inil il does, I rospi'i'l fully siiliniil. oiilff inlo llio fioncral rliararlcr oflliis acl, when il is weighed, as a |iarl ofllie IVeedoni of llie sea. Senator Morgan. — Snppose llie (iovernnient of Greal ISrilain expressly aiilliori/od llii'se lhinj;s lo he done hy Anieriean eiti/ens under their law, wonld Ihal he a moral eonsidcralion or Icfial considorulion. The President. — Here is no (pieslion of a sjieeial anHiorizalion. II is llie nalural o|ii'r:;'iion of laws. Senator Morgan. — II niif;hl well he a ease of special consideration, or special aulhori/.alion, as lo he jnslilied under Ihe general law or jtoneral relations helween the two Cioveniments. Mr Phelps. — These only relate to Ihe seized vessels. We have had no opporlnnily or occasion lo enter into the details of those not seized. The evidence in support of what I have read, which I do not take time lo refer lo, is cited al the paj;es I have read, and is all contained in Ihe .Vjipendix, and il complclely supports what is said ahonl those vessels. The President. — Well, .Mr I'helps, will yon tell us your mindahout it. Mr Phelps. — It has heen asked hy my learned friend why the I'niled Slates have nol prohihilcd Ihe lakinj; of these female seals or sealing at the improper time of the year in Ihe .North I'acilie fis well as in Hehring Sea. The reason is hecause it is impossihle lo go inlo a parliamentary, — 'ii7;i — i)r(;«iiif;r((«sioiml Assoiiihly imd |ir(i|ios() llic pasHii},'!! ol'a liiw lluil slioiild ''V'lii'li! A liniii (!ili/,(!iis IVoiii llm prolils ol'|M'lii);i(i sisiliii;; sn loii),' a.s it \Mis (hniNMi (i|i(Mi lo Iho nsl of llic world. Thai is lint rrasnii. No (io- V"'rii Ill cniild |.ni|ios.' sinh a im-asiiiv iis llial willi llic fX|H'clali(iii llial il would lie (iirricd. Who \Noidd volo for llial.' Illiy voliii^' loril yiin an pivscrvc llii^ seal rniiii I'xtci'ininalioii il is worlli snIhIc, Itiil lo say llial llic sfal shall Imi cxlfiiiiiiialcd and indiody shall |iarliri|ial(; in lh(^ itrolil cxccpl a rorci^'iiiT would he Inlilc The President. — Is Ihis a crilicisni in Parlianmnlary (iovornnioni? Mr Phelps. — Well il is holli'i- than sonii! crilicisins ; il is line. Il woiilil III" idle lo |)ro|iosi"ilandil would l)(M'(|nally iinjnsl. Knl Conf^russ, lis soon as IIk^H! was a |tios|i(Tl of lh(> pn'scivalion ol lhi> siial honl, passed a slalnl.' in IH'.»2, an .Ad inlilltMl an ,\cl lo oxliuid lo Ihc .N'orlh I'acilif Or.an ilii' provisions ol'lhi' slalnle lor llio proli-clion of Iho I'lir seals and oilier I'lir-hearinj,' animals. Senator Morgan. —• I liopo you will pnl il on roeord. I havo nol ii copy ol'lhal. Mr Phelps. — II is only a proof and very roccnl — jnsi as we wcro coniinf; here il was passiid lliroii^li Conj^ress. .\nd now in order lo seal in llio iNorlli I'acilic as well as in Ihe Itehriiif^Sea il will ho necessary for Ihal class of .Xnierii'an cili/ens who wanl lo ^n iidn Ihat hnsiness lo Hel Iheir vessels re.i;islered in Canada, r sail under anolhnr llaf(. Senator Morgan. — I suppose il would he as well (o say llial Coiif^rcss was nol aware nnlil a recenl period Ihal C.ilizens of the l.niled Slati.'s wore ohslrnelin^' llie p(dic\ lA' Iheir own Coimlry hy pulling' their money un- der llie llrilish lla^- in order lo seal on Ihis herd. Mr Phelps. —The investigations Ihat have heon made in Ihis case, Sir, have thrown more lif,dil upon every hrancli and portion of this siih- jecl than ever had heen thought of or known helore. Now what is Ihe consiMpience of all Jliis? I have done willi Ihe par- lies lo il. We say it is exierminaliou. What do they say on Ihe other side? N\ hal is the ground thai lliey lake in respecl lo this great under- lying fact Ihat whal Ihey call pelagic sealing is necessarily and at no dislanl date a complete exterminaliou. Thai is our assertion. What is (heirs? So .Memher of Ihis Tribunal can underlaUc lo stale il is denied, il is nol concided. II is talked about. They say we will judge of it. They say there arc other reasons why the herd is being exterminated — llial it is the fault of the management of the Islands, all of which I shall come lo in due lime if I go on will I'l; discussion of this case. .\sid(! from any conduct good or bad, anything Ihal may be expected from an inlelligent naliou that the struggle lo preserve this industry that belongs to it — aside from all llial what do they say is the consequence of jielagic sealing in and of itself? I re|teal, no AKnnbcr of this Tribunal can underlake to formulate the proposition of the oilier side. They admit killing in the water lo be indis- — ii7r. criiiiiiiiiti;, and il iiiiisl he --f'ornnliotly killing souls in Iho si'iican iinilt-rliiKd Id disciiniiiiiili' alMuil sex or af; Icnialcs — nini'i; IJii'in hall' |ii'(diald\, hi rausc, N\hili> I'viM'vhody conci-di's llial oi'lliosi' lior-n inlii Ihc world half arc male and hair an' I't'iiialc, il is nol lhi> nor'inal condilion of any lii'rd ul'iinhfAa- nions animals Ihal as many mains snrvivo as frmalcs. 11' llioy did. Ihi; •'(iiislani war would in'rviml Iho im^rnasc of IIk; IkmmI al all, and linTcroic, if il wiM'(! |)ossihli^ III lake llii; ciMisiis of Ihis hi-ril as il was when llnssia disi'oviM'rd Ihi'l'rihilol' Islands whiM'cl'ii mi I In- linn- ol'llH'dri'aliim Ihi'ii' had hi'i'ii no iminaii iidmTi'n'nci' wilh sex, il wonid nol havo lii-i'n ronnil llii'n; W(M'o as many mah-s as I'l'inalos. ^nl|t|l()sc Ihi'rc wim'i- in llw, soa as many IVnudcs as niidi's, so Ihal, indiscriniinaUdy shoolin^, yon would nalnrally gi'l ill) |iori'i'nl id all Ihal was kilh>d I'lnnalcs, I slmnld liki> li^ know, in IIk; nann; ot'common smsi; and I'ommon (>\|M'rii>in'i' and llii' knowli'd^iv Ihal is derived from Ihi' |it'o|ia^alion ol'all animals ol Ihis class, wlial llii' ri'sull ol that would III', II is a nwri' i|U('>lion iil'siii'i'd. In (he Imsini'ss ol'i'xti'r- niinalion, Ihi' rcwn- h^nali's you kill, llii> lon^i'i' yon rul.ard Ihc ri'snil, hnl Ihal il I'linii's is jnsl as ri r'laiii from a slan^hlcr ol'liall' ol' Iho i'l'midcs, as il wiiidd il' you killed a ^ri'ali'i' nundicr. ItuI wodonol sIo|i||ii'I'l>. WciIo not conci'di' Ihal (o he IIk; case. Wo say Ihatllii' oNidcnio in Ihisoasi- (•i)ni|>Iol('h di'nionslrali's Ihal Ihc |iro|iorliiin ol' idl Ihc seals Ihal arc lakon in |iola;;ic scaiin};' from oiio yoar Io anolhcr and all Ihrou'ih is id. IcasI H(\ per' ccnl. il is lakiMi al 7.') \)ov ccnl as a minimum, and il is staled al '.).■) per ccnl ami even hifiher llian Ihal in Ihe specilic evidence I will call allenliiin Io, hccause Ihis is a laid so imporiani Ihal il needs not III he approached or jicnerally nndei'slood, hnl il needs Io lie exacljy undorslood. The evidence thai eon\er};e> from \arions diD'erenl jioinls, indepiMidcnl piiiuls, hrielly conclusive, Ihal are independenl of each nlher, eompU'loly eslahlish Ihal of all Ihis pelagic sealing;, al leasl s;i per ci.||| are females. Now, in Iho lirsl place, il may he useful Io nndersland lii-ielly what was Iho {general cionsensus among Tialnr'aiisls, amuu!; experls, scieidisis, or praelically Ihose who have lieen charj;ed wilh Ihe manai;enn'nl and conlrol of Ihis husinivss hefore leslimony lie^an In he laken in Ihis case, hel'ore eilher side uudei'look Io examine wilno-^es orf.:alher fads for Ihe purpose of Ihis dispnli;. II was all one wa\. This case leem?. wilh slalenionis, ro|)orls, lollers. opinions of all sorts from ihal class of penpie who wore either sidenlilic or wei'(< hrouuhl hy Iheii' eiii;asemenls Io know soinelhing ahoul Ihis; and Ihal was the general heries, Ihe Canadian Ol'licial, which is verv hriof, I will niad liie suhslance of from — t'l77 — lli(\(;iis(> olllic (Jnih^d Shiliwat |,;i-i; :>()|, || is (jiiolo,! oiil ol' lli.; Cuiiu- el-. nin-ili nuned in l!ri(isli (.olnrn- liia, lia- sleadily inereased, ,iiid Iliis ye.ir, owin;.' In llie lii;.di |,rii;i'S iilitainaMi; fur llie ■ikiie^. as inanv as .'lO se||iH.|ii.rs, siiine id' llieiii filled willi sleain, and aniplv |irn\iiled Willi llrearnis, have lieeii erigiijri;,[ in |||i> ia|dnre ni leniale sisils. II is esliiinled Ihal llndr i ajeli Iliis .seasmi wdl alnoiinl In nu le>s llian 10, 0(111 skins, 'riii-; niiniher dnev nnl imliide Ihe many animal.- Killed or iimlilaliid, Iml 'ml ri'llie\eil. Vnu, if l|ii< iiidiseiiiniliale daii^dder ol t.'iiiale seals eaniinl he e lime, fnr in- slaneei, Ihe animal will, lielnre many years are mer, heemiie eslinel. and a Iai>;e indiislry, in. wliieli (li. ,i( Uril.iin is deeply iriteresl-'d, will ho Insl. '<'iii!ii lie says some iliinu I'lirllie;' dial is iiol iiiali ' mI to In; read. Now, .Mr llaMtMl's Ielier lo (lie \iin;rieaii .Minis! i' id' IHHH, wlijeli «as in rcjiiy to l,ord Saiislniry's rei|ii( -d lo !»t; i'nniisli d. ui'lerllu' a^^'ceiiient had heen made thai there -Inmld lie a (.onveiilioii, with some skeleli It-, Ihe I'liiled Stales uj' (he He^nlalions neeessary, — .Mr Mava'd, ill re|ilv lo llial teller, wrote with j;r.'at riilne-s mider Ihe dale ,,f I'eiii iiiiry the Ttli, IHHH. lelliiru Iliis whole story as it ha> iieeii lold lo yon. Thai hdler, as you will reniciiiher, was nol only laid hefore Lord Salishiir. , Iml, at (he i'ei|iiosl ol'tluilSritish (ioverniiieni, I he. Minister sunt hai k lor liirther print- — -J ITS — cd copies for lliciniso. iNow I read only Hint part of it llial refers to Ihis particular point from pa^c l".'{ of (lie Itrilisli (!asc, Appciidix 3. The wliolo letter is most uscfid. iIc(|iioles this passage from llie Inspector of Fisheries of ('.".nada tiiat I have already read; and he says, after givinj; the description of (lie migration and of the general propagation : Moreover it is impossible to dislinguisli the male IVoin llin female seals in llie water, or pref-'iiant icmalos from those thai aic not so. ^Vhen tlie animals are killed ill the water willi lireaiiiis many sink at onee and are never lecovenMl, and some aulhorilies stale thai not more Ihan one out of three of those so slaughtered is ever secured. Then he writes the passage that I have read from .Mr .Mowat, the Ins- pector of Fisheries, he says : That the exlermilialion of the fur-seals must soon lake nlace unless Ihey are liroleeled ri(jni desli'uction in Hehiing Sea is siiown by tlie fate of llie iinimal in (dher parls of Ihe world, in the absence of eoneerted action among the nations inler- csted for its preservation. .\nle(l hy Lord Salishury llial this staleiuent that cxlcrminiilioii votild I'esiill may he open to ipies- lion, and that there! may he evidence iii the other side; hul ail Hie way Ihnmgh Hie iJrilish (iovernmciil put themselves on the ground Hint, anylhiiig llial is necessary for the prescrvalion of the fur-seal they will concur in. The Hussian .Minister sulimillcd a memorandum to the .Mar- (|iiis of Salishury at Ihe same lime in July, IH88; it is found in Hie '.iv(\ Appendix lo Ihe Hrilisli Case, from which I li.ive lieen reading, at pagelid?, in which lie poinis oiil Hie same thing. I will only rei'er lo the lellei' willioul sidppiiigto read il; llial for Hiis reason, I'inmii Hie deslriiclion of females ami Hie greal wasle. exlerminalion is going to rcsull. Then Hierc is a rejiorl ofihe CommilU^e of Fisheries, lo Congress, and at page ."1 will he found Ihis, which is freiinently referreil Id in Ihe Case of the I'nited Stales and Creal llrilain, in which the Commillee having taken testimony , and spent a greal deal of lime over Ihis. make a ver\ elahorale i'e|)oii as lo Ihe result of the leslimony. The leslimoiiy, liiev say, dis- closes that a large iiumher of llritisli and .Vmerican vessels, manned hy expel! Indian seal hiiiilers, have IVe(|iienled Itehring Sea, and dcslroyd hundreds of Hioiisands of fur-seals hy shooting lliem in Hie wali'r. and siicuring as many of Ihe carcases, lor Iheir skins, as llu^y were aide to lake on hoard, and also, as In Hie iiumher killed, that not more Hian one in seven, on an average, is secured. In their report Ihey stale thai the — 2179 — fact of shooting the female seal with young destroys both, and exterini- nalion is likely to ocxur by Hiis process, unless it is arrested. Senator Morgan. — Wiis tiint liio Committee presided over by .Mr Dexter Dunn? Mr Phelps. — Yes. it was Mr Dunn liiat made this report. Then there is a report of the Secretary of the Treasury in the year 1880, in the British Case Appendix, Volume 3, wiiicii is lo the same general elTcel. At page 382 it says : !l is cstimalod llmt upwards dI' liOO.OOO soalf. wore killed by iiiiautliorizcd scal- ing vessels durinfr liie hroodin;;; seasons of 1888 and 1 889, and as llic jjrcat majority 111' these were cows, Ihoro was an almost eipial loss of pup seals. II is obvious thai the herd must soon disappear under such a di'eiuiation of ils productive numbers, Lvcn ir the habitual usi' ut lire arms did not lend lo drive the seals away from their haunts in advance of Iheii ixterniinalion. c way Ihiit, ■y will •Mar- ie ;{rd Mfi, at |(. tlie ruclidii This boars dale and is the reporl for the year 1880. There is a loiter of one of the lirilisii Conuuissionors, Sir (leorgi; Dadcn-I'owoll, to liie London Times, of November 3()lli, 1880. It is at page 20(1 of llie I'nited Slates Case, ami appears in Kxecutive Docnincnl, No. ').•), of the .■)2nd Congress. This is what Sir (ioorge naden-l'owoil says. 1 will only read one |i;iragra|)li from the i'0|)ort : MrSlaveloy Hill's graphic description of the lisheries on Hie I'rihilof Islands would lead one lo suppose llial Canadian sealers captured the young males " dry cows ", and others of the seal commniiil) who cannot find room on the rookrries. .\s a mailer of fact, the Canadian sealers lake very few if any seals close lo these islands. Their main catch i-; made far oiil at sea, and is aim i-^t enlircily composed of Irmalcs. Again Mr Slaveley Hill ad\ocalos a clo-^c lime evcepting for the months of.liiK. .\ugusl and September Thai Hie Canadian sealers commiMice sealing in December, and seal cdnliniiously from Mien II Augii-^l. Nor docs a close time gel over I ho (lifliciiil\ of jiirisdielion omt Iho high sen- Tlial is his sliiloiiioiil of Ihis faci iis ho undoislaiids it. Then lliero is a lollcr IVom I'nil'ossor {''lower, whom l-.n^ii-hmeii ihi not ni'ed lo la; told, is one of llioir most dislinguislied naturalis|<. Ho presides over llio Nalural History Miisoiiiii in London. II is a lollorlo llu' London Times (d' Dccombor Iho Urd. I8S0, which will be found in Mic I'niled Sliiles Case, page :>7, or Iho same Lxocniivo DocnmonI I was read- ing from just now. II is not very long and Iho aiilhorilv is high. Ho refers lo this letter of Sir (ieorgc Dadon-I'owoll which I have jusl read from, and he says : Sir (loorgi; Daden-I'owell, in his valuable commenis on .Mr Slaveley Hill's lotlor upon Ihe itehring Sea cpieslion, sa\s truly Ihal Iho one condi- tion (d' success in all fiilnre regulations is Ihal Ihey should be drawn ii|i in Hk; light of a full and complole knowledge of the natural hisbn-y of Iho case, ScarcoK a cenlury ago, fur-seals existed in numbers which appear now alinosl iiicrodihte on iiianv coasts and island* of Iho siiiithern ocean, Juan l''ernande/., Chili, the {'alkland islands, South Ijeorgia, Sonlli Shet- 27 :i — iiso -^ land, Prince Ktlwanl Island, iLe Cro/cllt's, some parts of Auslraliii. Anli- ])odes Island, and many more nioslly williin onr dominions, or williin Mrilisli intliiiMice, all possessed rookori(>s or hi'coding places of seals, which if prolecled, niii;ht have lieen slill as popnlons and valuable as lliose on I'rihilof Islands in llio IJclirinf; Sea. Kvcry one of these, how- ever, has, owinj; lo llie ruthless and indiscriminate slaufihler carried on by ifiiiorant and hiwli'ss sealers, regardless of everylhinf; but immediate prolit, been tolally annihilaled, or so reduced in numbers that it is no loufjer worth while lo visit them. The only spot in the world where lur- seais are now found in llieii' original or even increased nnnd)ers is (he Pribilof gi'oup, a circuuislance entirely owing lo the rigid enforcement of the wise regulations of Ihe AlasLau Commercial t^ompany, which are based on a thorough Ivuowledga of Ihe habils of the animals. Hnt ftn- this Ihe fur-seal might before now hiive been added to (he long list of animals e.\lerminale(i from the earth by the hand of man — .\nd more to Ihe same elleet. iNow (his is useful and perhaps uiayjusiify Ihe lime ihat I have taken in showing what was Ihe general nnderslanding and consensus all round, in Canada, in (ircai Itrilain. and in the Cuiled Stales .imong nalnralisis will) I'ei'erenic lo seals about Ihis business before anybody began lo lake evidence in this (!ase. It is all one way. nothing is produced lo Ihe con- li'ars — no communication is produced from anybody who undertakes lo vindicale ihis business, ami to say that it is consistent with Ihe pre- servation of the seal. Then Ihe tirst step that is lakeii in Ihis Case after the Treaty was negotiated was llie operation of the Commissioners on IIk; one side and on tlie other. I want (o call altention to what Ihe Anu'rican Couunissioners say. I liaveonly on* wiu'd lo say about that report and any one who has read it through will not reipiiri; Ih.at word b) he said, be- cause it will liavi ciirred lo him. It is the wtirk of a couple of men whose aiilliorily and reputation as ualui'alisis is not questioned. We ha\e no persons in .Vnu'iica more compeleid lo speak on Ihis subject if Ihey speak honestly than llu'V. A perusal of that report will show whelher il is or is not a parli/aii document of one siib- of Ihe case, made foi' a piu'pose, or whether it is oi' is nut n pei'fectly fair, candid, Iruthl'nl, and scientitii- tieatment ofllu! subject. It would not make it so if il wore not so, for me lo assert ihat il was. it does not deprivt,' it of Ihat (|ualit\ lo as- sei'l Hull it is uol. I respecll'ulK commend that i-eporl, every word of il, lo Ihe pei'usal of the Tiilamal. il it has not already engaged tlieii- careful perusal in view of tiie (|ucstion whether il is to ln' taken as a fair and jusl and candid treatment of llie subject, and I leave it williont any eidogy or ubscrsalious of uiy own lo tbaleaudid scrnliuy. They give a table which conlaius the approximate result of pelagic scaling and the note states where they g(>l llieir information from, which is Hie best Ihey could gel and il would appear lo lia\e fallen short of llie full amount. Then Ibev say ; II ciiiiuol Iju ilciiiud lliul ill iicla(.'ic scaliiin tlicri' ciu ho no seloulivu killing, a.-) — 2ISI — far as individual seals aro (umcortipd, and (inly in a limilod dei-'rce liy rcslrirliiii; it as to place and linii'. II nccossarily I'uIIipws thai I'l'tnali; seals niiisl lie killed and seals whose skins nwing In ap' and cnndiliun are nuieh less di'siialde. As a mailer (if I'ael, Ihei'e is sulllcienl evidenee In ennviiiee us thai liy I'ar Hie jri-ealer pai I id' Ihe seals laken at sea are leniales; indeed, we have yel In ineel willi any evidence In llicconlrary, 'I'ho stalenicnis nl' Ihoso who have had oeeasinn In examine the calcli of pola^'ie scalers iiiighl ho (|unlod to aliunsl any extent In Ihe ell'ecl that al h'asl oifihly percent id' the stials thus laken arc I'emales. On one nciasiou we examined a pile nt skins picked out al I'audnm, anil w liieli we have evciy reason In hidieve was a pari of a pidajiic calcli, and lnund them nearly 'ill females. When the sealers theni- sidves are nol iiilliienced hy Ihe leeliiiL,' llial lliey ari; te^jiryiiij;- aj-'ainsl llieir nwn inleresis they j-'ive similar leslimnny. Ihe mavidcnee llial I call allenlion lo is Ihe evidenee ol'llic Hrilisli and American ihtalers in and maiiuraclurers of seal skins. Tlioy are men, all ortliem. I believe, oflhal position thai Iheir leslimony is not open lo any erilieism, or Ihe suf;f;eslioii of ils beiiii;- unliiir oi' exaii- !;erateil — ■ niiMi represenliiiji business houses Ion;; eslidilished, doiiif; lar;;(' biisinesscis, and lhrouj;h the bands of whom or some of wliom, every sealskin haspassed roruiany years thai comes Ironi this pari of Ihe country — every one. They dividis them into I'.omiuander Islands or Kussian,. Alaskan, which means seals lakenon Ihe 'slaiids,aud lbi>"mirlh- wesl", which means seals laken in Ihe s(>a. Now this evidence. I am tryini; lo |iresenl al least a bird's-e\e view of all llial evidence on liolh sides — I shall nol overlook any evidenci^ thai is addnc(Ml on Hie pari ol'lireal l!ri- lain on litis siibjecl, itecause il is no use lo look at a queslion of lad on Ihe evideui'e on one side only : il is nol oidy nol fair, bill mil iisid'iil, and I propose lo review it briel'ly by classifviii;; il. 11" I were lo read il all, itwouUl take me a very \o\v^ lime, and il is (|uite unnecessary. II embraces the leslimony of HI) witnesses — ei^lil Itritish llial reside in London, '2 I'remh in Paris, I',) .\mericaii resident in .New ^ork, in Alhanv and in San l'"raiicisc( — the bnidiii^ houses in London, in I'aris, and in America dealinji; in these skins. There could be 110 coiicerl belwecn these people. Hie Hrilisli at leasl have no inleresi in the Americans, if lliey were al all ca|ialile ofallowiii!; any I'eeliiii; ol thai sorl lo coiilnil Iheir evidence, which I do mil for a moiiieiil believe! — it would be verv injiist lo lliose men lo sii;;>;esl il — and yui will liiid the material parls of llii>se deposilions in Ihe collated leslimony in the .\ppeiidix to llie .Vr^umenl of Ihe I nil. ' Stales at paj;es 'illl and il'.l. — 2182 — Wlial is pul>lisliP(l lliero, as will Ix; seen, iiro exirarls, thai is pprlinnnl cxlrarls from lliesc doposilions, l)iil in all cases (lie [va^p wliero tli<> (Icpo- silion in full will lu' found in llu' 2ii(l volumo (if tin; Huilcd Slulcs Ap- pendix is indiciilfd in llic uiarj^in, so thai in reading;, I'oi' convoniiMicosakc, llic, f;ist or |u'rliu('nl pari of the depositions, a comparison with liie con- Ifixl, ciin always l)i> readily made owinf; to the lifjure in the marj^in. Now these men, of course, undei'slaud the suhj(M:l, ;il is the business of tlieii' lives and in i'e;,'ar(l lo many of them, their fathers l)efor(> them. They are above, as I said, any sujij^eslion of slaliiif; what, they do not, believe lo be the fael, and have ru) personal inleresi in the Ann-ricans — no other per- sonal interest, than in heini; Am(!ricans. ami the ISritish even n(d thai. The number of those witnesses has been examin(!(i ami on the anlhoi'ity of the Hritish (Joverument, particularly the Itrilish witnesses, it is fair to assume that lli(> others would have been examined, if there was anylhiuf^ lo be made out of it, beeaus(' Ibey are in Lomlon, (juite within Iheir reach, and, of course, are willing; lo testify for their (iovernmenl, if Ibey are called. U will be seen that lhos(> who are re-e\annned do no! modify Iheir statemeul on this point in any particular that I am concerned with. Now they say th:d the malt> and female skins, except in the case of very youuf; animals, are i(>adily distinfjnishidile, and no liu' diMler" or manufacturer contradicts that. \\t\ came tbiMilher day to some dill'er- ences in the evidence about there beiu^ skins that wci'e not eiisily dis- tinf:;uishable as between the<',(ippi!r Islands iiud the I'ribilofs, but on Ibis point nobody coulradicis it. They are nsk(Ml, lo be sure " Was it your business to separate male from female skins?" " Why no", tb(>y say, " thai is not a se|iaraliou thai is madi! in liie trade "; iind then Ihev do nol ask them anylhiu}; further, whether they are likely to be mistaken or whether there is any diftiiidty about it. ^ on ai'e examininj; nien who are testilyiuj; about the common experience of all Iheir lives in dealing with lhes(; seals. Now what is the upshol of this subject. Take the lirilisb fur dealers. Mr IJcvington slates '' at least 8(1 per cenl ". Mr Kraser, who belonj^ed lo Lamjison and Co, I believe " H'.') per cenl ". Sir (leorj^e I.ampson, the bead of the same house says '• larf;ely females ". Mr W. K. Martin says " 7;i to 80 per cenl ". Mr Henry Poland says " a very larp;e proporlion ". Mr (M>or^'e llice " 8;i lo'.HI percent ". Mr \V. ('.. H. Slamji " T.'i lo itO per cenl ". I'hiiil Teichmanii " Almost exclusivtdy females ". Morris Moss, who is a Victorian, says " Mostly females ". lie is Vice-President of tlii! Sealers Associulion. Then of the i-'rencb wiluosses : — lie is — 2i.s:t — Kmil liorlz says " ThnuMiiuilcrs. Lnon Udvilloii " Mostly Ci'iimlos ", Now, as I liavo said, lliroc or four of (liosc uro ro-oxamiiicd. Ollicrs !iro iiol iv-oxaniinod. Those (hat arc ro-oxaniiiu'd do iiol liiiir hack or modify Ihal slalcmoiil al. all. or llic Amoricnn wiltmsses, still fiir-doalers : — Haiitif! says, " nearly all females ". (leorf:;e Liehfis " over \)() per ecnl ". Merman Liehes says " 90 per cent ". Sidney l^iehes, " over <.)(! per cent". .I.N. Lolslad, " H'ildOOpercenl". IMielan says (hat Ihey are mostly females. C. !•;. MeCienned, " They were mostly females ". C. \V. I'rice, " fully HO |..>rcent ". It. II. SIcrnfels. " 7;; percent". (;. II. Trcadweli, " <)0 per cent ". Sanund IHimann " many females. " Alfred Harris eorrolmrates (Jllmann. And (iunther says " females in mnch j^realer proportionate nnm- bers. " Wiepert says, " a very largo projmrtion are l'emali!s. " ('.. .\. Williams says, " almost all females. " .1. I>. Williams says, " are all females. " And Morris Windmillor, " tlO per cent. " Now, this evidence, in the lirst place, cannot he mislaken, and if can- not he nnlrne ; and (he conciirrciic(! i?i the testimony from so many wit- nesses from ditrercnt conrdrics from diihM'cnt soiiri-es is, lo say the least, very remarkahle indi'ed. How many casual scalers gmjssinf^at this husi- iiess would it lake lo overlhrow Iho lestimouy of such a hody of men as Ihal against whom only this single en(|uiry is suggestiid, '• was it your husiness h) separate (hem? " Why, no. n(d. specially, of course, hut it was their business lo handle Ihem and sell Ihem and dispose of them, and mannfaclm-e Ihem all lliiiir lives long, ami tin; dillerence is so plain, of course it could iiot((sca|ie their ohservaticm. Now we will go to aiiolher source of evidence entirely, and examine the evidence thai Ihe case contains of the contents of all the vessids thai we can gel hold of so as lo find out what the cotilenis of Ihe vessels were. It will he seen Ihal this is of course another brancli entirely. The case coidains evidence of the examination of these vess(;ls. There is a schoon- er that is not named which .Mr .Morgan (sxamined and leslilies about in his di'posilion al page O.";. I am lalking about all vessels whether they are seized or examined or in any other way which the evidenc|. enables ns lo tell what Ihe contents were. Mr Justice Harlan. — What do you refer to? Mr Phelps.— Morgan's testinu)ny and which is lo be found in page Ch> of 2nd Appendi.x. These reforences are from volume 2 of the United — 21 HI — Stales Appendix, and Mr Morgan is a man wiio has long i)ecn engaged in liiis business, but irrespective of that he examined one seliooner llial I believe was sei/.od, and lie found about 80 percent females in the sivins on board. These figures are galliered from many parts of tlie case, and I have more of the some sort. Tiie next one I have on my notes is tiio sclmoner " Mountain Chief ". (If M'\on seals on deck, six were females. Tiial is the lestiinuiiy of Com- mander Nelson of the lliiiled Slates .Navy, I'niled Slates Cduiiler Case page and Appendix il',). Then as to Hie sciuioner " San Diego ", Icslified to by Mr Douglas on page \2i) of this Appendix, of 211 skins all bul one, and of ."iOO oi' (lOO all but live, were females. Then as lo the schooner " Challenge ", out of 172 seals all bul three were females. Cunernor (irebnil/.ky of the (iommandcr Islands leslilies in respect of these examinations that lie had made, that out of about ."i.'lOO skins, '.Ml per cent were females. Charles .1. Behlow was sent lo examine (piile a number of these schooners. He was an expert. W'ilhout giving llie names of the schooners his returns arc : in one of the vessels IJ.'j.'l skins, of which 310 were females, and 27 pups of doubtful sex. Of 2(iH skins 212 were females and i.') were pups that were doublful. Of 12i skins 9:5 were females, and Hi that were doubtful. Of I ;}i2 skins, I I 12 were females and OH were young pups. Of l.'J skins II were females and 2 were doubtful pups; and of 2 17(1 skins, I 7'i.") were females, and lO.'i pups llial were doublful. The recapiliilalion of all thai I liav(! exa- mined makes 'i 3.')2 skins examined of which .'{ MflH were females wilhoiil coimliiig the pups that were too young to he designated. Out of these skins, over 8H per cent are found that are known to be females. JJefore leaving Mr liehlow, I should allude ("and I shall allude only in a word) to some testimony thai is taken r.r pniir of course and put into the Itritish Counter case (so that we could not reply lo it), to show thai Mr Itelilow was nol engaged long enough in making this examiiialion of one of Ihcse vessels — thai he was nol there long enough lo have made llic count. I only wish we could supply Mr lielilow's reply lo thai — his Deposition — oi' course we cannot do it. The leslimoiiy is of Ihelooseslaiid vaguest kind — no evidence to contradict the result (M' to throw any doubt about il, and the result is exactly in accord with all the rest of the evidence iti the case. Now Mr .bdiii ,1. IMiclan (one of these I'm- dealarsi, on page 422 of Hie Collated Testimony, says : I WHS si'iil (o .Ni'w YiiiL liiiiii .Vlliaiiy a lew (lavs aiin \i\ .Mr (li'(iri;i' 11. ircadwi'll, wiOi iiislrii(lii)iis lo j.'ii llii'niiL'h a rcilaiii Inl of seal sUiiiswliicli I iiiiilcislooil he had ri'icnlly Imiiijlil in Vicloria. and lo lind oul how many of lliesc skhis were laKcn IViim IVnialc animals I have s|ii!nt lour days in doiii;.' Ihis.woi king ahoiil seven lioMis a day. he — 2l8;i — Tlion, arospvoral mum, who unp,,.!.,.,! (|„. skins an.l lai,i (Immu M„vr. nir so that S":!!) Ss""" '"'"''""" '" ^^'""'"'"S llio i.Miivi,lual skins. Thu lA contain..! And lio pron>o.ls lo describe lliom in a manner not inalerial lo niv present pnrpose. Then he says : I 'livhlml the. skins a,n,r,lin,Mo Ih. Il„v,. following , 'lassos ; mains, fonialos ami ''"'"; '"l''"'''''«^"fpii|)slpla.T( lyiho skins of animals hss ll,an " vrais of a;;!!, I)i)t without rnlVivnc'o to sex. I loi.n.l in th. lot ;Wo n.alos, ...Ih- r,.,„ah.s, and HNS pnps. l.,,,vinL' out of account th,. i.nps. th- p,.,r,.nlas,. "I' Innalcs was .vfon, ahoi't s-2. Ti.al is 82 per eenl. If y..n call the pups one half females, it wonhl raise thai, Iherefore, li.e same proportion wonl.l raise i( „„,c|, ,„ure. Then ho sa\s: TIm' jrivat majorily of what I classc.l as mal,. skins were taken finm animals |,.ss Ihan J years of a^-e Thcr,. was not a sh>,'Io wij; in lot. (,„ li,„ |,,,n,l, nearly ■'' "' "" ' 1'" ^"^'"^ '""'■'■ ^^"•^" "rn.ll-K.own nnin.als, (!n everv sKin whiehl rlassclaniunK the females I found teats, will, hare spots al then. o,. the r„r ' •, ^"I'li I'an. spots make it ahsolutely certain that these teals we,e lhns,.„| lemale skins. , ^l ''f-''"'' '"""•I'i>p skins, I will say that I ,li,l nol nii,l,.rlake In .lele.inine whelhe.' they were n.aios or females l.ecanse they ha,| a thick coat of l,!,.l,|,rr winch, m li.e case of animal less than two ycu's old, .nakes it very hard to loll the All of the skins that I exan.ined were either shot or s|,eare,|, | did iml keei, a elose count, hut I an. of opinion that ahoul 7.> per cent of ihcMu wcv. shot I he lesnlt of the exami.,at;on is ahont what I had expected it wn„I n,,. ^'11'"' ",!'•'' '■■"".''''"' ^^■■'■'l ' l'''^" al"a.v noticed in a jtencal way. that nearly nine- le.iths^ot the sk.ns in a..y shipn.eni of .\Mrlh-\Vest coast skins a.e tl,„so of fen.alo The President. ~ Mr I'helps, all this leslimonv se-nis to l.c (p.ile coneordani, l,nl mi-ht it nol he inferred from all (his I. stinionv Ihat if such a -real pi'oporlion of females were foiiiid in the .sea, (here may not 1)0 males enoii,i;h lefl. Mr Phelps. — Thai, Sir, of c.nr.so has (o he c.m-a.ler.'d hereafter. I am no>v enfrage.l in makin- ont uhal proporlion (,f lemaLs are killed in tins l.nsinessof pelagi.' sealinj;. and nno shall make oii( very clearly I Ihink NNhelhor (here is any dclieioney of males, and N;here (he males were. I shall pursue this a lidle furdier. and as (his is a p.o.l place lo stoj., perhaps you will (hiidv it desirable. Sir, (o hreak oil' now. Senator Morgan. — I suppose the case o( eapturiny (hem is otic of Ihe reasons why (here were so many killed? Mr Phelps. — Well, (hat is one consideration. iTheTrihuiial (hereupon adjourned till TImrsdav (he l)(h .liilv 1893 at i 1.30 a.m. I KIKTY-FIHST DAY. JliLY «•", 1 8U3. Mr Phelps. — Near llie tlosc of llic iir};iimenl yeslcrday, Mr Presi- dent, you put to mo a question in respect to tlie point I was discussing in i)rinf,'ing forward the evidence to sliow tlicvery f;reat pcn-entage offemaics lliat were enil)raced in llie pelaj;ic catcli, — wliellicr or not that mifjlit be allrihuled lo tlie fact that lliere were so few, comparatively, of younj; males; in other words, wiiclher this {^reat prcpouderance was a preponde- rance of the females or a scarcity of llic males. I propose lo answer thai (pu;slion this morninf; very brietly, and I think very cH'cclively by referrinf^lo certain testimony in the case, which shows tlial this K''<'at preponderance of females in the pelagic catch was just as noticeable years ago when pelagic sealing first began as it is at Ihe present day after the eil'ccts of il, and the elVecIs of anjthing else in the mani\gement of the Islands, have transpired. In the year of IHOH, as early as that, when pehigic scaling first began, Mr Krascr, of the firm of Lampson andClompany in London, in his (h-positioii which is in the 2nd Volume of the t niled Slates' Appendix, page "i'M , from which Ihis is an extriicl, says : This fad, llial llm iiuilli wrsl skins uvti so hii>'i'ly the skins (vf Irmali's, is Ciiillii'i' nvi(l(Micc(l by llie fail Dial in many of llio early sales of sucli skins llii>y are clas- silieil in Deponenl's books as llie skins of females. II was so noticeable in 18(18 anil aftei'wards, according to his deposi- tion, thai the whole catch was put down in Hit; book us females. .Mr Mclii- lyro, Ihc special Agent of llie United Slates, whose evidence is promi- nently in the ease on many |)oints in his Oflieial Iteporl to tlieliovernment in 18()',( and which will be found in Ihe United Stales' (bonnier (lase, page 84, uses Ibis language in su|)|)ort of Ibis su|)posilion — Thai nearly all Ibo ,'),OflO suals arnmally caugbl on llio liiilisli C.olnmbian cuasl are 111-of.Miant females taken in Ibe walois about llic 1st of Jnnc while aiiparcnlly procoediri}.' iiortluvurti lo the Prihilof Group. Then I'.aplain Hryanl, a witness on whose lesliniony they rely on the oilier side on several points, as we rely upon il, is idso quoted in the United Stales' Counter (lase al page 8i, when writing of the year 1870 savs : Kornierly in Marcii and April Ihe natives of I'tigot Sound look largo numbers of lirojrnanl fiiniales. In .Vugusl 1880, llcar-.\dmiral UiUluie Seymour of llic Brilisb iNavy, — 2IS7 — nddressiriji; llio Admiralty — lliis will ho I'oiind in llio Appendix lo fironl Uritain's Case, \ol. 3, Liiilod Slali-s, N» 2, 1890, page I — says : 'I'lic Urilish ('idlimiliiaii sual scliomim's sni/.cd [by] Luitoil Stales Rcvoniin criii- ■/.ov (Uirwin, Iti'liiiii^r Slrails, seaward 70 tTiilos Irdiu oll'llio land [? in llio (^xecnliipu ol'l killini; IVtnali' seals, and nsiii^.' Ilie-anus In dd il, wiiieli lliey have dune I'nr llilei' vi'ais wilhuiil inleiieicnee, alllinngh in I'onipany willi C.urwin. Tlio saino yoar .Mr .Mowal, tlio Inspector of the I'islieries of Canada, Uritisii C.olombiii — and this is tal»en from the IJrd voliiuu' of tlie Appen- dix lo the liritish Case, pa;j;e 17:), — reports : Here Were killed lliis year sofarl'roni 40,000 In .'iO.OflO fur-seals which have heon taken hy sclniiini'rs IVoni San l-'raneiseo and Vicloria. The greater nnndicr were killed in liehrin;;- Sea, and were nearly all rows or female seals. In I8'.)2, Captain Sliejmrd of Ihe United States itevenue .Marino — • and Iliis is laken from the '2nd volume of Ihe Unilcd Stales .Vppendix, page IH'.( — says in his depositions : I exaniitu'd skins I'roni the sealin;,' vessels seized in ISS7 and ISSO, over l'2,000 skins, and nl those at li'asi tW(j thirds nr ihree-lourlhs were tiu! skins of females. This is selected evidonee onl of miirli more to the same cfl'eet. It comes from men oflln! highest standing and position, in tin,' majority of cases Itrilish, and in Ihe majority of eases ol'lieial; and if this is trne, it he- comes apparent Ihal the! proportion of females taken in Ihe pelagic caleh in these years before any of the causes that are siiggesled hy my learned I'rietnis for Ihe dimiiiiilion in Ihe niindter of males had at all taken elVeel. 1 will jnst say fnrther in passing, these observations are in reply lo your very |)crlinent and proper (pieslion which I was very glad to have put. The-io form my reply, and when I coilj hi deal with that part of Ihe case, we shall ntlerly and completely refnie upon the evidence in the Case the suggestion Ihat any such consequence came from any mismanagement of the Islands. We shall show on what it depenils, to begin with ; Ihat is lo say, il (le|)en(ls on nothing that is reliable, and shall show, in Ihe next jilaec il is over-whelmingly contradicted by Ihe evidence. .Now I return to the point I was discussing at the lime of the adjourn- menl. I was endeavouring, if yon will remember, lo bring before the Tri- bunal the resnll of all Ihe evidence on the proporlion of females irrespee- live of the question of pregnancy or nursing — the proporlion of females in Ihe Norlh-West catch, and I had commenced to do what I shall conti- nue, namely, not lo reail very ntnch evidence because there is really no end of that, and lo read selected evidence is of small value, but lo lay before the Tribunal the resnll, Ihc final out-come of all the evidence on both sides laken inio account Ihat is produced on the part of Her Majesty's Covernmenl as well as Ihat on which we rely, so thai the Tribunal can see at a glance where the balance of Ihe evidence is and how much il amounts lo. In I '.'.rsnance of that I had gone so far yesterday as to gel through Ihe cviden.'e of the fur sealers on Ihat subjecl — c idouce so conclusive that — -JISS ^ we mij^lit leavo llio whole lasc ii|iiiii it. I had liktnvisc rullcd uMt'iilion lotlio unanimous (oiicinTence of opinion amonfjall pnicliral and scionlilic m|ii>i'ls will) kni^w aiixlhin^ or had anylhin}; to do altoiit Ihis liiisiiii'ss licroic t'vidt'iM'c li('f;an lo i)i' taki'u a! all — slali'nifrils no! made lor Ihc |iui'posi< III' Ihis iiisi' wliii'h IhiMihad ind ai'ison.thal is lo say.liadnol lakcii llii> loriM ol' a rcl'iTi'iiri' In an ariiilration. I llien proi'ci'd lo show llic cvidi'mi' and all llio ovidrnci' (and if I ovoiiook aiivlliin^' il is a niislakc I shall hi! niosi happy lo liavo com'clL'd) derived IVoin the exaininalion of Ihe conlenls ol' all llie vessels seized, or olherwise in a sihialion lo have Iheir carnocs exaniined, as lo (he pro- porlion I mean — vessels Ihal had hcen eiif;aj;ed in wlial is railed pelaf;ie sealing, whal pi'oporlion ol' Iheir eahh was females, and I showed as far as I Weill Ihal il was an averai;e of over HO per eeiil. Now 1 add to thai this morninj;, \er\ brielly, a few other vessels thai, aecidenlally passini; ovei' a sIkm'I of my noles yeslerilay. I did nol name, in addiliiin lo llmseldidiiame. Thereisihe schooner "Anj;el hollie" in IHS7, and Ihis slill iiears on Ihe answer lo voiir ipieslion, sir. 11 is addilional lo show direetion as well. Thai was examined h\ Mr Lond, assistant Treasury aiienl , ami Ihe leslimnny is in Hie rniled Slates' .Appendix, pajie 'M. Sir Charles Russell. — I Ihink Ihal was a United Slates' ship, hid il is nol v(>i'\ maleiial. Mr Phelps. — Thai ma\ he. I have nol diseriminaled here as lo whose vessel il was : 80 pereeni is leslilied.of Ihe skins fonndonlhal ship, lo he females. TIkmi Ihe si'hooner Ihe .1. 11. I.owis was examined hy ^lalowanskv i i IH'.ll, and hy 'I'homas V. .Moi'i;an, and these witnesses will he reeol- lerled. They leslil'v in Ihe sceond I'liitcd Stales' .Appendix, pagi's 197 and at (l.'i, and from '.tO lo ',»,"> pereml of the eonlents of that vessel were female skins lliese skins wire shown lo Ihe lirilish Commissioners, and .Mr Malowansky leslilirs, and on Ihal puinl he is mil eonlradieled. Then Ihe siiiooners ■■Onward " ■■Caroline" and " Thornton" seized in IHH7 ami Ihis {;oes hack aceordinjj; to Ihe dale I was just rehn'riii};' to, were examined, as .Mr .Morgan lesliljes, and there were found 80 per eeni females. Now one fnrlher rel'erenee, and 1 leave this topie. In Ihe i'arliamen- tarv papers reeently laid hel'ore Ihe Trihnnal hy my learned friend in res|)eet of lliissia, Ihi! liepnrl of Ihe llnssian Commissiiin in resjiecl of vessels seized hy Itnssia — Canadian vessels most ol'lhem, and I helicive one .\merican, eonlains a slalemenl ul'llie eonlenls nl' Ihe live ships sei- zed for sealing; al Ihe Cniiimamler Islands. On Ihe Minnie tV2'2 seal skins werel'oiiml of which ,")S.') weri' f'males. Thai is al p;ij;e 12 of Iheir Iteporl. In the •'liiisie Ohlsen" sflioonei^ in the boal- were found ■'!"'.) seal skins, of which '••() per ceiil had lieeii laken I'rom females. On Ihe ■■ N'anconvor lii'lle". (li'.'i'.ll skinssei/i'd, SS per cciil of llmse were females wilh yoiini;. That is at page I't. On the ■• Willie .Mae-Cowan' , 7() skins were found, per iiicn- il ill of lii'vc ^l■i- ilb'. 111. .of iivor Mill;. iiikI^ ol' wliii'h (lit were llinsc nl rciiiiilos; on llif" Arii'l" l.'Ut skins wore Ibiiiul ; UO per cciil of llii'iii were llutsc of siickliiij; Iciiialcs. This is llic Kcporl. of llio ComiiiiNsinn ivsliililislicil liy llu; lliissiuii (lnvui'tiiiu'iil lo cMiininc lliis siilijcct ciinifiilly.aiKl iiimli! llie resulls ol' llie Imsis nl" lliiv coiirliisioii il iin-iviMhil. Mr Justice Harlan. - - Tlml n-lulos l(» Ihis ycai'. Mr Phelps. — Vcs. Sir Charles Russell. — No, 1H'J2. Mr Justice Harlan. — V'' . I im-aiil IS",»:>. Mr Phelps. — .Xons >lill Keeping on the poiiil of llif I'n'sidLMil's sii^'- ^'('slion orcii(|iiiry of yeslonlay, this pola};ic sealing near Ilie Itiissiaii js- lamlsisa IH'W iinsiiu-ss and never has heeii harrasseii liy pi'laj;ie sealing liefore. How new il is will he appareiil al a future stage of Ihis ease, when we eonie lo consider how iiuich Uk; llussians ha\e made oiil of llie /one lliev lia\e exaeleil from Great IJrilain where IIk; seals are laken now. Itiil dial is immalerial. I onlv say Ihis was sealing where no pr(!leiice had ever arisen llial we Iwar of as lo scarcity of males, or as to any cause whieh could pi'odiice a scarcity of males, and yet, on tliesi; vessels, the average of females taken in llie pelagic catch hs these scliooncrs comes fully up lo this. The President. — Is there not an explanation to he made as lo sea- sons and places id llie eiilclies in connexion with the sexes? Mr Phelps. — .\o. I shall show yon, when we come lo llegnlations, where Ihc seals ar(! taken. The President. — lint we art; told that the females went in a herd logelher separati! from the hulls and (!ven IVom the young ones, and pas- sed Ihrongh certain places at certain seasons, and conse(piently were not at oilier pliices in lhe saiiK' si'astms or not at tliosts places atolher seasons. Mr Phelps. — Tor this I'cason, if we contined our evidence lo parti- cular limes or particular ships, it would lie open to the inference lluil pos- sihly Ihosi! ships were to some extent exce|)tional. Our evidence goes to Ilii> entire |)elagic sealing — all that takes place at any period of lime when the weather allows, and that goes to show that this pereenlage of female seals |iriiicipally pregnant, as 1 shall show presently , wliili- the herd ai'e on llieir way lo lli(> Island, has the same percentage of nursing females after lliey gel to itehring Sea. The evidence covers the whole hnsiiiess every inoiiili in the year in which thai takes place; it covers all vessels engaged in it, us far as we can reach il, and all jdaces in which seals are taken in the sea in the whole year. .Now, to come lo another large elass of evidence which, of course, I can only deal with in this general way, ami perhaps il is lhe hestway; that is, the evidence of Imnlers and seamen, men aetiially engagi^d, men whose inleiest, as far as Iliey are engaged in this husiness. would he to sustain the husiness rather than to condemn il. Von will lliid the testi- mony of a very large nuuiher of this class of jieople, captains of vessels, practical hunters and seamen engaged in the business, eolluled in the — i!l!)0 — Appendix to llio IJnitod Slates' Argumeiil hclwccii papcs 429iinfl Ml, and helween paj^es iii2 and 46(1. Von will lind (lie I'nll leslimony oC I hose witnesses in Hit! 2nd Volnnie of llie Appendix lo llie United Stales (lase between paj^es '2',il and liOl. Now, first, as lo this Anieriean cvidenee, and then I will refer to Ihe nritish. Of these witnesses, Ihorc are masters and males of vessisls en- ga};ed in the s(,'alinj; business, live Uritish wilnesses, — 1 mean, Urilisli subjects, and 2i American, making' 2'J masters and mates. There are oflicers of Ihe United Stales' Navy or l{evenuc Marine, 4, who have been on duly in those waters. There are nierehauls and owiers of sealing vessels,;); and there are journalists 3, 2 British journali.its and 1 .\me- riean. Those whom I have classed as intelligent seamen and hunters are only because they write llieir own names, and Ihougli I made llial divisoii per- haps it is useless; but some of these make llieii' mark and some write Iheir names, and there is no harm in classing tlicm in thai way willioul nii;a- ning (() insisi that that adds greatly to their (redibiliiy. There; are of that cias'^. '.) Hrilish and .'{'.I American. Tluire are seamen and linnttM's who do nol write their names, while men, 9.\ni(;ri"aus ami tj Itrilish : and then Ihcre ate Indian huni'.Tspulting those in aclass i)y themselves of 3! ; and of officers resident on the Island in anoflicial capacity, 2. That makes |:{G wilnesses. dividt^d into those classes, called on llie AmiM-ican side. Now Ihe I'esult of Ihe les'iniony of (hose wilnissses is, that they all slate Ihe proportion of females killed in pelagic sealing geiiiM-ally at ligures from 7,") to ',•") pel' cent. The owesl mai'k of anv witness is "o; Ihe high- est, I lliink, is '.)■>. They range between Ihe two and 1 will gifc; Ihe geniM'al average of the Itistinioiiv diicclly. Somefew, however, as alllhese wilnesses do nol give Ihc pcroenliigcs in iigiu'es, those who do not usi; w(H'ds of Ibis sort. — either these words or some like Ihem — " Nearly all females " ; "nioslly "; "a large proportion " ; " (Iks great majority "; " principally ", and olher terms of exactly llial import; and tluiy use, many of Ihem, those very words. Now Ihe summary, if you care; lo go into Ihc jiercentage. of all IIk; iti'ilisb {''urriers I ciled vcslerdiv, — Ihe average of all llieii' leslimony is 82 per I'cnl. The avei'age of tin; American Turriei's is .'i.'i per ccid. The sealers' averagi; is 'V.i. I am nol (|nile sure wlielher Ihat average lakes in all lln^se witnesses I have staled. The average of the exami- nation of wilruisses who testifv lo Ihe conlents of vessels is ,'),'). Thai is the American evidence; anlaliii;; how iniich more liian half. They are not asked lo j;o further. TheN are not pressed lo he more (•pecilic wIkmi examined hy the afteiils of (ireat llrilaiii, an cxamii\ation which \\i\y (i"^lif;> a^aiu'^t us in this body of evidence, liH wilnesses in all, inclndiiin Indians, ti;i' oiav he fairlv said to be as slatinj; that Ihe larp* proportion or the larj^er proportion — Ihey express themselves, of course, in ditl'erent lanj^ua^e, and in dilVcreiil ways. Mr Justice Harlan. — What jear do yon refer to.' Mr Phelps. — I should sayman\ of them refei- specilically lo \H\)\ and IH'.I2 — a good many of Ilium. I have no minutes al hand without re- ferring to the depositions. 2192 The President. — W,H and I8'J2\vero years wlicii llicro wiis no kill- iiiy: 01! the isliiiuls. Mr Phelps. — Tlioii llicy refer lo tlic const calcli, l)iil I caiinol answer llic qiieslioii very iiilellif;enlly. Mr Justice Harlan.. — I asked l)e(ause I remeiiihered a niinil)ei' of witnesses wliose ileposilioiis said, in I8'J1 and isy2tlicy found fewer fe- males llian in previous years. Mr Phelps. — My eye falls on a number of witnesses of 1S91 and 1892. Mr Carter. — And nearly all, if not all of lliateliaractcr. Mr Phelps. — I will have thai looked up. I perceive the pertinence of Hie quoslion. Sir, and I will have llial (juestion anowered. The President. — I suppose fewei- females means more males. Mr Phelps. — Ves, hut these men do testify there is a larger propor- tion of males. Xow, I cannot stop to criliciselhis evidence particularly, or to go through the evidence of eachoflhese witnesses to show Hie explanalion that miglit he found of the testimony consistent with Irulli. They are sealers, of course, swearing on helialf of their own cral'l. Their Icslimony in neces- sarily i:i /Kirle. as all the evidence is. li is (akeii in such a way that we cannot re|)ly loil, or explain it in any wa\. ISul let (hat stand willioiit any ci'ilicism al all as Hie testimony of .'iS liiiiilers and sealers who come here and lell you Hie grcaler proportion of pelagic sealing is males, if that is Hie pnrporl of Hieir evidence, — it will he seen in many cases they arc referring \o particular voyages and particular ships, and so forth, — I put II',- sirongest conslruclion upon it and Hvat the wilmssses who come and spi ak in Hie same way as our witnesses do : it is Hie wliole licld, — those ;iS men conslilule all the evidence Ihere is in this case, giving (he ulmost "Heel as against the mass ol'e\i(iencc from all these sources that we lia\e hrouglil lo hear as againsi these niiinerous iii'ilisli witnesses who swear Hie oHier wa\, — the ItriHsli siihjecls examined liy us who swear the oilier wa\ and lliis array of ofliceis, id'licials, hunters ami seamen, four times as many, in addilion to the evidence! of the furriers, and 111!' evidence all'orded h\ Hie vessels Ihal were searciied. .Now here is a (piesHon of fad Hial miisl ite decided upon tin; evidence. There is no ollh'r way lo dccid(> it. Memliers of Hie Trihuual know nolhing aitoiil this except what they derive from Ww evidiince. I have fairJN laid hel'ore you, for I have had my ovmi cali'iilalions carefully revised, and I speak wiHi ronlideiice ahoni llieir aceiiracy. Hk^ result of Hie evidence on Iliis point. To liiid against lhi> conlciilioii of Hie l.nited Slates, \ou must laki; Ihis scallered array of witnesses I liav(! alluded lo, and which is open lo iiH sorts of criticism, if I had lime lo make it, as showing lo wlial period and oci'asioii llieir evidiMici< alludes, and halance that againsi the wliole mass (d' this leslimonv. .Now one remark more. The least relleclion will show Ihis must he true. They an; killing seals al sea. where they cannot discriminale and do nul ullempl lo. In Hie normal condiliuu of lliu herd Hierc would hu ul — iion — least as many females as males, as I remarked yesterday, probably more. Kvor since 18t7, wbcn llie system of discriminating killinf; was introduced by Hnssia on lliesc islands, Ibey have boon makinf; Ibis considerable draft — wo sliall soo wbal it is in anotlior conncclion — • of yonng males on tbe islands, and killing young females. Wiiat must tben be tiin greater proimrlion of seals in Ibc sea in tliese later years after all lliat period. We liave somci tables tiiat, in anolbor connection, wlierc tliey more properly belong, I shall lay before you, and I will not anticipate it now, in wbicli we have made tbe general observation (hat I have just made the basis of an actual calcidation. I only say now, without any ligures or calculations what must be the prepondorani^e of (he females in this pela- gic herd, if, ever since \H\1 the males alone have been killed on the islands. I dismiss that subject for the present. Now to come to another point whicii I propose to treat in the same way and to get over as rapidly as possible. I have spoken of the pioportion of females — what proportion of (lieso females in thi; Spring catch, in the Pacitic Ocean catch — not now rcforiing to Iteluing Sea — what propor- tion of thorn are actually pregnant females when they are taken. Now this is not a very important (pieslion for this reason. The des- truction of a fenialo atl'ccts the lieitl not so much by the young she is about to produce that year — that can only be one — it is the future pro- duction of the aniiual going on in a goonietricai progression. It is of no <'(mso(pience to say tiiat the female thai was killed this year was not preg- nant. What if she was not? Is she not going to bo pregnant in all the successive years of her available life hereafter. Mr Justice Harlan. — And that is increased if tbe pup that is killed is a female also. Mr Phelps. — Vos, I have made that the subject of calculation. I have said it is a geometrical progression if a female is killed who would have had 8 or Id or whatever the number may be. according to her ago, of pups, half of those would bo females, and of that half that are females the same ratio of piogression woidd go on if they survived to become pro- ductive themselves. As I suggest, it is a great deal worse for the herd, not spcakin; of humanity, to kill a yoiuig I'lMiialo that is not |)rognant llian it is to kill an a (iin(MTnl qiioslioii. ISiil every single fael llial is set forlli in lliis ease I iinderlake lo say is sustained i)y the lesliniony, and il is soniewlial impoilanl llial llial should appiNir Now, on (lie snlijeel. ofpregnanl females, it is coneoded thai the period of geslalion is II lo \'l months, nndouhhMlly 12 lunar monllis; beeause that is thi> analofiy with referenec; lo such animals. The witnesses talk about il being 1 1 to 12 months; and I suppose that is it, and also that llio young are all born in .Iniie. The lesliniony agrees about (bal with a very few exceptions, — some in the very eaily .Inly: they are born in .luiie and tlie early .inly. There is no proof of any young coming into the world on these Islands, and eei'tainly not anywhere else because they would perish, later than that. I am reminded that is the llritish Com- missioners' tigure, — from the l.'ith of .lune to the l;>lh of ,luly, but, really, tliei'c is no divergence of testimony on that subject. Now, then, all the pregnant females that are in the herd are necessarily on llieii' way; and we shall show by and by in the propei' connection just where on the way it is. Il is enough for my purpose lo show Ihey are on Ihoir way, every one; and they are exposed, how much exposed wc shall point out. Of course, without any evidence you would sec that there must lie a large number. vidence on Ibis subject is this; — aside from gi'rieral conside- rations w(! shiiw, before you look at the evidence, what the evidence must he if il is true. The l'nit(>d Slates have examined iJeveniie Oflicers, sea captains aiul fur-dealers, and I mean by that fur-dealers who are over lher(> and know it personally. This does nol come from the examination of the {.oiuiiin fur-dealers, but fur-d(>alcrs on the I'acilic Coasl who know their business. Aside from lliat, we have examined 7 Captains, Captain Cautwell, Captain Shepliard. Captain Scammou. C.aplain houglass. Cap- taii) llavs, Iaeli<, the fnr-dcaler, and a .Missionary of (ho name of Duncan. These witnesses say " T.'l per cent; " " '.(.'J per cent; " " a majoiity of all ; " " nearU all i if catch ; " " '.•') per cent of all; " '• iwai'ly allot catch ; " " neai'ly all ofcatih; "and these ar(! not merely females, but pregnant females. We have I'xamincd of Sealing Captains, .Ma(es and Owners, following (he same i|nalitication. and pulling those by themselv(!S as somewhat snperioi' to the common men, 2.'i: 'i of these are llrilish sub- jects and 21 Vmerii.in. The li'sliniouv of lliesi' 2.') men is this; " the greater number; " " '.Ml pei- cent; " " '.)'.( per cent ; " " 7.') pei- cent of all; " " the majority; " " most; " " all; " " .S.'i percent; " " nearly all of catch ; " " 7.') to HO id' all ; " " all (if eatcli; " " I'our-ti fib soft he cows; " "nearly all ; "" mostly all." — a repetition of those words or of exactly the same signilicance, slating il from the lowest " 7.'» " up to several witnesses who say 'all, " whiih is probably rather a strong, or perhaps natural 2lllii liiiiiliuii Know a|il;iiii s. r.iip- hiiiii'tin. Di'ily ol' Icir," f;iiaiit Isi'S lis l^h Sllll- •• till" (••'111 of ai'ly all fiiws; icily till' iliicssi's natural slali'incnl of wilnnssos svho do nnl atlompl lo lin parlinilarly crilicil. riicn wo liavo cxamiiKMl liiiiilcrs and seamen, not ofliccis of ves- sels, (')'_> : 21 III' llieiii are Itrilisli siihjeels, anil il Aniei'lcan siihjerls, iinil (lie laiiftna;;!! Ill' lliose witnesses is just the same. II would lie a ri'pelilinn I'or nu! Ill read tUnvn these twn or Ihree columns. The lowest thai is sta- led, I believe — I think some lew of these witnesses sa\ — is (10 per rent. They are vei\ lew. Must of them use these expressions that I have read : " MosI "; " a larj^e majoriU "; " mostly all "; " Iwo- Ihirds" ; " nearly all ": " almost exclusively "; " most of the females"; '• the majority " ; and so forth, to the same cll'ecl. I think there is not a wilness llicro, except two or Ihree that speak of T.'l per ceni, who falls short of thill. Thai, you see, shows what .MrLampson — or how il came to pass that Mr l,.impsou iii keepin;; his hooks classilied these female skins, thai the exceplious were loo small lo lake account of. Then we have examined Indian hunters and Indians, hut no! the less triilhfiil on thai acciiunl. They havi; nol acipiired yet all the virtues of civili/alioii, and their lestimony is lo the same elfect. There are of these wilnesse.^ 71. and I have ^iven here the names and passes on which Iheir testimony is I'onud. and llie poini or suhslanci^ of their lestimony. It is an exact n^petition of what ! have alreads said. Then^ are a few of these wit- nesses Ihfil say " alioiit a half ", and they do nol }{0 as far as (he others. '• .Mioiil a half": "fully a half": " one half ". There are a j,'real mim- tier Ilia! use that, ami llie ^real majority use Ihe slrou^er liin^na^e that I have ^ivnn. I tind a more specitic rei'apilulalion lliau lliai. 2K of these witnesses say " one half"; " aliout a half"; " neai'ly a half"; " a lillle over a half". Two say " less than half"; and one of them says " a third "; and one says "Ihree out often "; which, of coui'se, would l)(! less than a third. All Ihe others say whatlhcydo in Ihe laujiiiajii! that I have relerreil to. ^ow what is Ihe Itrilisli evidence on this point .' They have exami- ned apparently a lar;j;e hody of men — I should sa\ really a lari;e hody of miMi. Thei'e are 2.'> of their witnesses who sustain Ihe I niled Slates Case, wiio use Ihe same lanj;iia^e that our wilnesses do; - " Ihe i;real- (M' nmnher ", " most of the females ", " aliout Iwo-lhirds ", most of Ihe females ". " three out of live ", " ahont Iwo-lhii'ds " " females for Ihe most jtart ", 'cows for the most part ". Then oiu' says : " T.'i jier ceiil ", ■' four out of six ", two out of Ihree ". One says he did no! ^el any this year lliat liai' no pups. " I do not remendier liaviu;; ;;ol an old cow that had no milk : one hnnier says, I never saw an old cow alon^ coast without pups ■ and so on. I do nol read il all. There are 2') Itrilisli witiitjsses that cannot he distinguished in Iheir testimonv from oMrs. Then here af^ain is aiiollier class of li of llii'ir' wilnesses who are called lo contradict our evidence which they had al that lime, and lliey do not coiitradiit il. They do nol spi'iilically sustain il, liul they do nol ronlradict it. They say, the proportion of pre;;uanl females is " alioiil half", •' fiillv half," "or not more than half". There — '.'I nil — arc 11 (>r llinsc. Tlipn> arc llirt'c more wIki use llicso ('\|in'ssinns — '• many orilic cows ", "a fjood many ", " (jiiilo n niimlicr ", — llifv use llial ('\|)i'('ssii)n - - •' liair of llic cows were |)rc^iianl ". Thai is what I liiivc liiM'ii ciliiif; this hin^iiaj;i' lor. 'riicii here arc six witnesses in all lliis array ol' evidence on llie Itrilish side wiio Icslil'v ariirinalively, llial llic nninher and iiropoi'lion of |irej;nanl cows in Iliis calcli was small — six; and Ihey say " ahoul 'J.'i |)(!r ceni ", " altoiil a (jnai'ler ", " in a lolal calch (d' I I'.) oid\ ;i(» ". '• in a calch of -JOlI only (".."i ". Tliny refer lo jiarliculai' calcjies. " Half I '^n\ Ihis \oar females, moslU \onni; cows, oidy fonror live ". Then amdlier wilnoss says," onl of :{(!(( no! more than I nil ". Thai was in one calch. Tin-n one wilness — an Indian, I jndt;e, says " iols of Ihcni are old cows wilhonl jtnps ". Tlion IliiM'e arc hvo olliors who decline lo express an opinion. One of Ihem. a witness named ShonI, says, he cannot sa\ what proportion, and I lind added at llie bollom lo those 2?) I ffwc hefore on the Itrilish side who snpporl the \nnen a few older females that were barren, — " },'ot a few barren females lhi> \car "' : ■' 12 onl of ".HI seals "; " a few barren females " ; and another witness savs, '• 'Ac cannol lell in the s(>a whether the cow is barriMi or iml" ; and another " wc alwavs lind a few bari'cn females ". That is a list of Mrilish witnesses. Then there are In wlio leslify lo lindinjja i;real man\ barren females. Ten nf llic-c sealers testily stronijiv the other way. In (H seals " :2n (H' 2") '. Anothei- sa\s, •• ipiite a nnmlier ". " Ity barren lemalos, I mean one that has mi ymnii; ". Then by anofhei- witness, " a fjood manv bar- ren females Ihis yeai- "; " a j;real many"; •• almost half barren; the other half cows and pnps ". Then, " Less than half, aboid a ipiarler ". That is llu' evidence of on Ihis snbjecl. .Now. till- ipieslion oecnrs, what docs tin' evidence show as lo these females beint; actually pref;nant ? I pass on. This is, ofiom'S(>, before .Inne and .Inh when the vonnj; are produced ; the catch after that, of eom'se. cannot be prcijnant females; I mean " prejjnani " in the s(n (ir moan i\ liar- ■11 ; llic ■ Icr". Ihi'sc liclorc hill, of <(M1SI' lliat ioKiMi. orii, as « Now, wlial |ii'o|iiirli()n ol' Ihosc li'iiiali's. no inallt'i' wIhtc lliey an; ranfilil, arc lakcn Ity [icla^ic scalers? W'iicllici' ncai' llic Islamls oi' far (iir I (In nol ciii|iiir(f licr(> ; lliat is anollicr (|iicsli()n (hi a lallcr sla^c ol' llic evidence ; Itiil we have (wainined on lliis poinl 1 (il'liccrs and liovcrn- iiienl (H'ticials, and one wiliicss savs, '• HO jier ceiil. ol' llic calcli ", i llial is, I Ihink, a .lonnialisli '• are nnrsinn-t'enialcs ". And he iclci's lo 1H out ol" ',10 U\\\cn on a particular voyaj;c. AiiolluM- says, ■ Thiec-iiiiar- leisoniie calch ". 'riien W(! have evaininod, |)ui'sniiii; Ihe saineclassilicaliini. S (',a|ilains, owners and males on this snhject. 'I'liree ol' them, accordin;; lo my nolcs, only leslily to th(> dislanct; at. which they were Killed, and do nol express an o|iini(Mi ; hiil those who do, say •' Most all ol' the calih "; " all the catch mostly"; " two-thirds of llie cows ", and " a lar^e |ii'o|iortion ". Then we have examined Indian seal-hnnters ',»; and they say " a lar^i> pro|)(n'lion of tin; catch ". Ilfconrse, I do nut repeal it : hnl I mean that a lar^i- proportion iif Ihe catch SNcre niii'siii^' I'ciiiaiis. Thos(! are Indian seal Imiiters enj,'a^ed in I In; hnsiness of pelaf;ic scaling'. The President. —On the coast. Mr Phelps. — .No; in vcssids en^a.ncd in sealing; in llchrinj; Sea. This is conliiKMl to llchriiiji Sea and tlie\ are Indians who arc eii^aued in seal- ing; schooners. They say : " A laii;e proporlion ". " most all ", " .Nearly all ", and a hnp' majority ". Then we have extimincd on that snhjecl hnnlei's and sisinicii. who ha>o the advaiila;;e of heiiij; white men — •H't witnesses - and witii IIk; exce|itioii of two who do nol appear lo have expressed an opinion hnl only leslify as lo the dislance from the Islands thai will come np in ano- ther coiineclioii. — |lu!\ all nse exactly the same laiif^najic : " A i;rcal many ', " mostly all " •' nearly all " " Hit per ceni " ; " most of calch ", " nc'iiiy all of calch ', " Ihe lai'iicsl pari ', " T.'l per cent ". Thai is the lowest of anymie I think. Thai is the American evidiMicu on tlial snhjecl. .Now, what, is the liritish (Evidence from Ihe same class of men'.' The llrilish ('.ommissioners say " none in the early part of the snnimer ". .\nd Ihe Itrilish ('.ommissioiieis' lieporl says in another section, " a few lali' in Slimmer ". I shall asK attiMilioii in due lime. I.i the consideralion of this asscM'lion whicdi I iiiideiiake to make, llial in every material fad which is in dispute helween Ihe parlies in this case, the slalemcnt id' the Urilish r.omniissioners, set down in lln.'ir report., is overwhelmingly dis- proved hy all the evidence in IIk^ case. Thai sonnils, I am (piite aware, like a prelty strong si, iteiiieni . I mean illo hea slroiii: >laleiiieiil. I make il deiiheralely. I invite your attention to any disputed (|iiestion of fact in this case : sided which ycni please. Test il hy all Ihe evidence, fairly and candidly considered, and see where it lands you; sim; wlial an i;irecl parli/an feeliii};, and enleriiij; upon an emiiiiry for the pui|iose id' aninii- — 2 1 OS |ili^;i'rl lo tnakt! liu' oltsci'Viilioii : Itiil I am lifiT for soini'lliiiij; more lliiiti llio oxcliaii};^ olroiirtesios. iilcasaiil as llial is. I lia\)' a (Inly lo itciTorm llial is moro im|ioi-taiil llian llial, and I shall liavi- lo allude lo lliis a^aiii ; and lliis is a slalemenl on which I in- vile lUt'. (I(>liliei'at(! irilirisni ol' Ihe Trihnnal. The Itrilish lioveinnn-id. have examined, (d' the eaplains ol' v(;ssels, 12, twu ol'whom do md appear lo have spoken npon Ihis snhjecl, hnl Ihey refer lo Ihe dislance. Now whal Ihi'se men say is Ihis. One says " a lew "; ancdher " none in Ihe lirsl pari of Ihe season "; anulher " a majorily ol' IIk; females "; another' a iinmher ": Mi- Warren, " a hnv n|) lo .lidy illsl, never within ."iO miles of the islands "; another " none "; another " one third of the females in .Inly ": another, •' mo>l of Ihe cows, jirohahiy Iwo-lhirds "; anolhei' •• none from .lidy lo .AnfinsI "; a former witness says, '' lume in the early pari "; this one says '• none in IIk- later pari ": another says, ■• we j;cl Ihem np lo .\n^nsl Isl ": anollwir says " a ft-w ":'and another " ahonl Iwo-lhirds ol the idws ". Thre(!, I think, therefore, say, or Iwo at allevents, " Iwo-thii'ds " ; aiudher " a majorily"; anollier says " we ^{il them ", without tonrhiii}; llu^ point of how many. One says " a mim- her ". That disposes of .'i of Ihese \'2 witnesses. The olhei's say (hIIkm"' a few " or " none" or " none in (Ik? early part (d'llio suminrr ', oi' " !ione in the later par'l of Ihe snmnKM' ". They have, e.xamined llnire hnnlei's and s<'alei's some 22 or li.'i id' Ihesi; wilniisses andlhev have i.'xamined ll> Indians; Ih.il is losa\. Ili(>ri' ari\ some '^2 or .'S;t allop'lher of Ihese hinders and sealers, whelher Imlians or while men. What is Ihe np>hol of their lestimons .' Thi'ee (d'lheni say thai most of Ihe females are nnrsini;; foni' (d'lheni say tiial all of Ihe cows are niir.-in};; and oiii! says half. Soiiu' of Ihem sav ■" a itood many ", " most of Ihe cows ", " more Ihan half", •' most idl the cows ", " Ihe majorily of Ihe cows " cows ther ■• a vei'y lew ",an(dhei' " a very h'w, prohahly a (piarhM' '. One says •• some ". and one says" (ndy one ". I snppos(! lie refers to a pai'tieii- larcalch, another " a lew ", and so on. .Now Ihe recapilnlalion of all litis iJrilish evidence - eajdain- of V(!S- selsand l.'ihnnlers and seamen, support Ihe cimtenlion of Ihe I niledSlales, llial is, thai the larpe or i;realer proportion of lliesit are nursing. One captain and 1(1 seamen do iiol eonlradicl, and are md prosed lo name any majorily. Three do not make any slalemenl at all on the siilijeel, although they an; evperieiieed sealers and hnnlers. On II Ilier hand, OIK! man says '• none ', and one sa\s '• none in Ihe liisl pari (d' Ihe si^a- -on ". aiiidher " none Inmi .liiK "JO to .Inly I2i ". There are eij;hl wilne-ses who say " a few '. Then 1 1 witnesses snstain the ltrili>li conleiition, 111 Ihe contrary, and \i do not contradict the I iiitcd Slulus. ■• most id' Ihe cows ". " all the cows ", " Ihe i;realesl part of the " a fii-eal many ", •• 7."> per cent "; and one says " a few ', aiio- ol' Ihc •r IIm! ol' Ihc IIIO- ic siiys liirlicu- (iT vi;s- Shilcs, OlU" (I iiiiliir ■ iilijt'fl, liiitid, III' SCil- — •Jlilll — Tlii'ii lliero is IIk; variiilioti I liu\i>ini>iili()noil aslo iliosi; nnIid say llii'tu; arc none orarulxil I'ltw. as lo lliit lime wIhmi Ihoy aii; lo Im> IhiiikI. TIh.m'o is lliu I'lisiiil of lliu ovidiMici! on llic (|ii(>slioii of wlial |ii'o|Mii'lioii of loniales in Kchriii^'Si^a an; iiiirsiii^ f'i'iiialcs. Tin; osidi^ncc llial. it is iiol a hiv'^i) niajorily is so sli^^lil lliul il n^ally |)('rislius in (In; lij^'lil of lliu rosl. .Now I pass aloiip; to anolInT siiltjcci, Ihc cflVcl, on Ihc; yonn^ on Ihc Ishmds ol'lhi' (h>atli ol' tli(>s(Minrsin^ niolhci's. W'c liavchad liicexli'aoi- dinary sn};f;(!slion made Ihal llial does not niaUe any diircii'ncc — thai the yonii^ may lie Irl'l willionl noin-ishnienl, and thai tJM^y an; ^oin^ to livt; sonii'iiow iii'olln'i' and liiid the (l(;sli'Ui'lioii of liic niolhi'i's docs not make any diir(;rcncc. — I'tirliaps sonic oilier mioIIk;!' will niii'si; (li(;ni — lliat is oik; theory. Anolhoris, llioy do not need any nnrsinf,' — that thoy coint; down lo the slior'c and t'ora^'i; on the scu-wnicK. mid so I'lii'lh. ISiit wlial is Ihc I'vidcricc/ It is said in llii' lirsl place, the i;videncc on lliiil siihjecl ofa^reat niiiiilicr ol'dcad pups Ihal are roiiiid mi Ihc rookeries is noldenied and caiinol lie doiiied. I need ikjI n'ri;r yoiia^aiii to the evi- d(;n('e on that siilijcct, liccaiisc thai is not in dispiilc. hiil oilier reasons are given oraltcinptcd lo he ^iveii lor liiis iiiorlalily. It is said hy my learned i'riciids that llieie were no (lend pups seen on III*; rookery in any ;;rcal uniiihers up In IN'.U. and llicy say if you an; dcstroyinfi the nnrsiii;; leinales in the previous years, how comes il lo pass IIk; ollii;r yoiiiij; wen; not found dead on Ihi; roido'ry till IS'.II'.' 'I'hen Ihity say the mortality in liSUI was conlin(;d to St I'aul's Island, one of llie I'rihiloIVs, and did iiol esU^nd to Ihc olhi'r; ami lo Iwo rookeries on that Island. Then they say Ihal Ihc iiiorlalily appeared a^'ain in IH*,I2 iipun the same rookeries, allhou^li, under the iiuk/iis r/iu'iii/i. there was no seuliiifi in Itcliriiif; S(;a lo destroy the nnrsiiif^- niolliers; and they say that no niinsiial iinmher of dcfui pups was seen on the ('.ommander Islands in \H\)2. notwilhstiiiulinf!; thai pelai^ic scaling' had lie^iin there. Now, all llicsc proposilioiis would conslitulc a complete ami conclusive answer lo the charge thai IIk; pups slarvcil In di;ath liy llie deslriielion of their mothers during the suckling pi-iiod. In what cxiraordinary manner I'lovidenei; has provided for llicir surviving would slill lie lel'l a matter of aslonislimenl ; hnl il would dispose of llu; fail that ileaili was owing to the deslriK'tion a,;;('s 'M\ and iHj oilhi' \|p|i('ndi\ In llic Ann'fican Ai;;nnM'iil — llic C.iillalrd Tcslinmny. Tlif t'nll di'|MisiliiMis ai'i> in ail cast's riTi^ri'tHl lo in lite niai'^in. sn liial it) Inrnin^ Itt liit- 2nd lnilcd Slalcs A|i|i(.'ndi\ — ani)llu'i' i)()()i\ — von sec lite wlinlo nl' Ihc slalcnicnl. Tiiciv is a ^I'fal deal nitirc Icslinion) as I sav itclwi-n llitisc [la^'cs I iiavc incnliiint-d. .\i)w Mrdiaik, who was four vcais on SI. (ieor^e, fnini IHHi to IH80, says : Itivtd " pitp " seals, \,'iiih si'ciii 111 li:ivc Niaivcil In ilcilli, u\r\\ vciy iitnin'iiiiis iiti liic iiiokcMJcs IIicM- l.illcf cats; atid I iKilici'tl ulicil tliivitif; llic liat'lii;li)f seals lot' IvilliiiK, as wt> slaiicil llic it tt|i IVotti llic luacli, llial iiiaiiy small " |iti|is ". lialT slai'vcd, apitarcntly iiiiitlicrlcss. Iiati watidci'i'il a»ay ri'iun Ihc lii't>i'iiiiig lii'oiiiitlsaitti lii'ianic iiiixi'il will) (he Killahle si'als. 'I'lie iiall\e>. lalleil my a.leiiliuii to llieso wails, sa\iii;.' Illat il illd mil tt>c In lie sd, ami lliat llu^ iimlliers were tliatl, utliel- wIm' lllev uniiltl 1)1' tipciii the liri'eilitif; f.'l(iltlit|s. 'I'licn lilt' nt'xl. Ml' llansson, .1 seaicr, was li\(; years on SI I'uiil island - from ISHd lo IM'.M : I lio mil sltip lo ;;iv(' liic |iaj;f of lliosi; |iarli- fiilar ones, — il isali iiflwccn llu! |>ai;cs I liasc ^ivcn, and I niiisl savcuill liii; liino lean. Mr llansson says : — 'I'lieli' w.'i-ea ^oml ni,iiiy tieail pups nil Hie iiKikeiies every year I was nil llie island, ami lliey >ei'iiiei| tnm'nw nmie iiiimermis IVniii \i'ar In year. I' here may tint ill r.li'l.have lieeii lunre nl" llu'lli lieeailse I'nnkei'ies wei'i' all llie time i^row ill-'- small- el', iiml llie ileail pups in (he latter years were more innuernus in pmpurtioii tu (he livi' niii's. Tlicn Mr Mc Infyrc. wlioso nanio lias liccoiiic (|iiilo faniiiar lo \oii, was on lli(> Islantis IVoin IST(I lo IS,S-_>, and fit. in IHHd lo IHS'.t. lie says : — The seals wiTe appareiilly siiliieel to iin disi';e.es ; llii' pups were always I'al ami lieallhy, ami ileail niie- very larelv seen nil nr ahmil Ijie rniiKeiies piinr In Issl. I pnii my leliiiii In llie islands, in I.SSii, | was Inld hy my assjstiillls anti the luilives Ihal a Very larpe mniiher nl'ptips hail perislieil the |iit'i'eiliiij,' season, ^Tlial would lie IHH.'J,) II pari III' lliein dyin({ iipnii the islands, and others liuiii},' waslioti iishon^ all seem- ing- to have slarvetl lo death ; llii! same IhiiiH iicciiiiiil in j.S.stl, anil in each of (he Inllowini,' years. In ami inclndiiii; IS.SM. Kveiiherori! I lell the islands in .\nniisl ISSli, IS,S7 anil is.ss, I saw humlreils of hall" starved, hlealiiin' einacialed pups, wander- ing aimlessly ahoiit in search ol their dams, anil presenting; a must piliahle appear- ance. 'I'lieii Mr Mornan, wiio was ]'■> years on SI. (ieoi'i;e as liie .\i;enl ol' Iin; le>sees IVoili IST'i lo I.SST, sa\s : — Hill I'acl^ came iinilei' my n|i>er\.ilinii Ihal --nnii led me In what I lielievr In In' Ihe line cause id' ili'slnicl inn l'"nr iiislalice. dinili,^ lln' pdind nl' my tesidi'lice nu SI. (n'mfie Island ilnwii to Ihe pi'linil nl' Iss 1, I here Were always a nnmlier id' dead )inps, llie iiiimlier nl' which I laiiiiot jjive ex.ictly, as il varied (roin year to ^ear, ami was de|ienden( upon acci- — iiiii — c|i'iil< Ml' Mil' il('-;lrii(liviMii'>< •<{' iMriii-. Viiiiiij; -ii'.iN iln iml know huu to >\\ini liuiii liiilli, mil' ill lliry li'.irii lin\\ I'lir >j\ hitK^ m iwo mkhiIIi^ allM- Inilli, iijul llii'icrurr ail' al llii' iih'IiN hI llii' wavi'^ iliiiiiiv; sln|iii\ wimIIu'I'. IIiiI rmiii IIh' M'ar issi il.iwii III llii< |iri'ini| wlini I li'll SI. (Jmi-,- Miml ISST) llnn' h,i- a iiiai'Ki'il iiiri'i'asi' in llii> iiiiiiilirl' hI'iIimiI |iii|i ~ral-, aiiiniiiiliiii.'' |ii'i'lia|K In a Irililiiii.' Ill llir iiiiiiiliii' iilix'i M'll ill riii'Mii'l' vral'>, Ml llial I wmilil >'^liliiali' llir iiiiiiilii'i' nj' ilrail |iii|i'< ill llii' vrar ISST al alimil li\r m- "rvi'ii llll>ll^allll as a ina\iiiiiiiii. I aUn iiiilii'i'il iliiiiii;; my lavl lwi> III' lliii'i' vi'ai's aiiinii;: lln' iiiiiiilii'i' nl ilrail |iii|is an iliri'i'a^i' 111 al |i i-l Til |ii'r rciil. nl llmsi' wliirli wiTr rinarilili'd ami |iihii', anil in my jikI'^iih'iiI IIii'.n 'lull Ii'i'Iii wani nl iiniiii'-linii'nl. Ilirii ninllu'i's liaviiiu Ihtii Killiil wli li' away I mm I In' islaml I liii^, lii'i aiiM' it i> a lad llial |iii|is ilinuiiiil nr killiil liy ai riilriiN witi' aliimsl invarialily fat. .\u\N Sir. I (III 111)1 know Ihiij I Mi'i'il ^'11 (Ml willi llii<. Mr l.iuiil. Iii>- voi'iimcnl Ap'iil in.m IHH.'i In IHH'.I. shtd's llii' >.;iini' lliiii.i;. Ili' siivs : I am iiiialilr In malvr a ^lali'iiiriil iis In llir nnmlii'i' nl il <rai- I'yiii^ nl' niir^iiii:. Tin' I'l'siill is llial Iliis ili'slini'linii nf piips l.-iki'S ilmiil I'ipiaiiy ri'iiin till' mall' ami Irmali^ im'i'i'asr nT llii' lii'iil. anil wlii'ii sn many mali; pups ai>< killi'il ill Iliis iiiaiiiii'r,ln'siili's llir IlKllKlll laki'ii mi llii' islamls.il iiiiri'ss.irily allrrls llii' Miiiiilirr nl killalili' si'als. In ISS!i Iliis ilraiii iipnii malr lil'i- slinwi'il ilsill' mi llii' isl.imis, ami Iliis in my npiiiimi, arrniinls |.,i' |h<' nrnssily nl llii' |i's<|.i'~ lakini; sn many ymiiii; seals llial yrar In llll mil lliclr ipmla. .Now .Mr I'liliiiPi' is a wiliii'ss inlriMliiii I Ity llii> lirili^li (liivi'rnnii'iit. Ill' wcnl willi .Mr LimkI. Ih' is an nriiilliolo^isl — ^a man i'Mi|i!i>yi'il in llii' Sniillisoiiian Insliluli' lo sUilI' l)ir(|s. Ili'savs : — 'I'liii j;ri'ali'r iiiimln'i' nl lln' srals rapliiiril in llii' wati'is nl ItiOiriiif; Si'a arr Iriiiali's wliirli arc iiM llii'ir way In nr liavi' li'l'l llii'ir yiimift mi tin; rnokriics wliili' tlii'V am si'i'kiiij; Innil. .\sil isa wi'll-kiiown larl thai a innlhrr si'.il will mil\ siickli' its own yniiiiK. ami llial llii' ymm^: sral is iinalili' niilil it is si'vi'ial mniilhs nlil In priH'iii'i' ils nwn rnnil, il ni'ii'ssai ily nlilaiiis llial lln^ ili'alli nl llii' pup I'nllnws llial nl ils niiitlirr in ;i sliml limi'. Tin' iiiimlii'is nl' ilnail pups alimil llir slinrcs nl' SI. Paul's lii':;aii In alliarl mv alli'iilinn alimil llir mlilillr nl .liilv last vrar. Thill was I Hit) I : On .Vii^:. 2 I sinoil nn Znllni Hi\arli ami ciiiiiilril IT ilrail pups williin Ion t'rri nf mc. ,in(l '/ liiii' iif ihciii slrclr/ii'il Ihr irlinb' kixjlh «/ llii' lienr/i. Many ol' llii'in slarvr III iliMlh nil llir in,, I,,. lies, lull liy lar till' «|i'ill('I lltlllllil'r fiillk ill 111!' (Ii'i'ji wiitcr aliilii; llli' inaiiiili i,| IIm' innkrlir:*. Now in ISSS I |i:iM< iiiMi'K iliiiii' willi llii>i liiil I \>;iiil In III' limit' ^^illl il ('IVcrhiailv ;ni fMiiiiiiiiiliiiii, iis vuii Iiiim' Iimi'mimI was iniiiii' Id n (liiii^i'i'»iiin:il ('.iiiniiiilli'i' al W a«liJn;;liiM, ami llii> lli'|iiii'l lias lici'ii |iiil iiilii lliis rasi-: ami IVdiii IIh' li's|iiiiiiii\ llii>i'i< so <;jvi,|| hi'l'iirt' llial Cuiii- iiiilli't? — (iiiil I'lir liio |iiir|insfs ol'lhis casci — wi' i-xlracl Iwo ur lliirc wiim-ssrs. |i' Mr ImIniv, wliost! li'sliiiKMiN I liavr road lii't'ori! lakrii in lliis ciisc, sai.l : And I woMliI '^a\ liii llirr llial It , nw > .11 1' killi'il lali' In llir M'asuii, '•ay in .\il).'ilsl alli'i' 111!' |iu|is ,ni'i' lioi'ii. 111!' lalliT an' Irll ii|iiin llii' islands i|,'|iiivi'il "( tin' mullii'i's rarr, anil of ruin'si' pi'iisli. Tlii' rll'i'il is Ilir same, «ln'lliri' llii' cows arc killed licloic or allcr llic jiiijis aic ilroppi'il. I'lic yoiinj.' pciisli in either case. Mr Me iiilNrc's |;ri'al laiiiiliarily willi Ilic siihjcel, and llic innsi candid iiiaiitii'i' ill which he has leslilied his lar;;!' (•xiiciieiiic, is already known III son. Then al pa^e S.V.i of Ihal lle|i()rl, Mr .Mniilloii, llie I'niled Slalcs Treasury Ajiciil al llus islands IViuii IH77 lo IHH.'l leslilies us follows, lie is asked : (J. When a I'eiiiale is niu'sin,:; liei' yoiiii(; and froes mil for fiMiil and Is killed or woiiniled, lliat lesillls also in the ilealh nl'hei' yniiiif,'.' A. Yes, sir. As hci'yiiiin^r does mil i-'ii into Ihe water, it i|,,es ii,,l d,, anythiii}: loi' some time, and ciiniiol swim and hie^ to lie laii^lit. Now Mr 'riippi'i'. my friend on Ihc oilier side, know thai ns narly as IS.SS Ihe I'niled Slates claimed lhal Ihe |iii|is died when Ihe inolher was killed; hecansi' on pap- '1 'iIJ of vohinic 111 of Ihe A|i|>emlix lo llie Itrilisli caso, rulVrriiif; Iti Ihe leslinmny just i|iioled, he says : The iipiiiions of the iri'iilli'ineii jrivcii hcfore lli,' ('.iinui'essioiial ('.oininiltee in l.SSS for till' most part, llioii^'li sonieliiiics I'onli'iidlclniy, arc in favour of the iiiidei'- llientioliod tlu'oiiis. 1, That the teinale seals while iiiiisiiij: their yiniiii,' f,'i) fjreal dislames in search of lood : •J. When out a yieat dislaiiic, fi'inale se.ils are shot, and llic pups on shore are lost for want of their iiiolheis' care. I shall read no more. The sniijeel ran bo pursued upon llio rcforonco lhal I havo fj;ivcn to Hie Cullalod Teslimony, and llio full losliinony, of which Ihcrc is a groal deal more. Now is llioro any losliinony lo Iho contrary? Is llioro any wilnoss l)roii};hl hore to say : " I know those islands |iriiir to ItSDI : in all those years llioro wore no dead pups llioro"? .Not a wilnoss I What hronjj;hl my friends into the error of saying, as they linve said in Iho roiirso of llit\ ariiiimont, lhal this llrsl appeiiranoo of starved pups was in llio year I.SIM? Then they say, Iho mortality in \H\)\ wasoonlin- od to St. I'aul Island, and lo Iwo of the lookerios on that island, naniolv •>'J(I.'I — llicf was Kiilisli •efi'i'cncn inuny, of '\N lliose Tolstoi ami I'olavina. Thai is Ilit> year Ilia! lias l)(>i>ii s|iok*'ii ol' - llial wlii'ii \oii coiiit' to IHOI iiislrail ol' i|s liciii^ ilill'iiscil all ovit lliost; islaiiil.s, as the iiiollicis IVoiii lidlli well' i'i|iiall\ KilliMl, ol' loiiisi' il is <'oiiliii«>«l lo two I'ookt'i'ii's on orii! island. Tlial af^iiiii \soiilil In; ttxIrniicU iiiipoiluiil, it' il well' li'ii)>. 'i'lic (lit'liciilty of that |ii'o|iositioii is thai il is not siip- |ioi'li'(l Ity (!vi(lt!iii'(! aiitl is ovcrlhrowii. .NoNN I will alliit'c, as hrii'l'ly as I possihly cuii, lo a ffvi wiliiossns on thai |)oiiil. Mr S.aiiloy ItnivMi loslitius in Iho (Jnilod tHalos' A|)|ien(li\, Volinno II, |ia^'i> I.) : From ucaicriil r'xaiiiiiialinii nt rrrri/ ninlifrij ii|i(in llii' tifti islniin. iiiailr liy iiii' in \ii;;ii~l .mil Sr|ili'iiili('i' i |s:l| i I iilaci' lln' Miiiiiiiiiini olliiiali' nl' lln' li'ml |>ii|is In lir l.'i.dOd. anil Dial soiiir iiiiiiilii'r ln'twri'ii llial ami ;i(l,(liM) wnulit irpi 'r«uiil iiioro iirailv a line stali'liii'iil nl tlir lads. Then liioutfiiaiit Cantwi'll, of the Unilod Slates' Hc'voniie Marine, nt |iaj;(! WH ol' the same hook, says : DuriiiK llio iiionlli nl'Sc^iilciulx'i' ol Ihal yt'ar ^INIII) In conipanv with Mr. .1. Stan- ley iliown, t visilrd tin' Slarty Ailcrl and ICaslrrii I'dukcrifs un SI. (ictirKi' Islaiiil — thai is the island whero Ihc say Iho niorlalily did ncd rtMudi — and saw nuni' llian llir avi'i'a;:i> niiiiil)rr ol' (leap |iii|is, ami a ;,'n'at many ilyin^' |in|is, cvidcnlly in very poor ciiiidilii'ii ThiMi Captain C.oidson of lliu Iteviuiuc Marin(%on duly Ihoro, at pa^i^ il.'i of I ill! same hook, savs : N.) nii'ntioii v.as cvci' niail(^ nf any nnnsnal diad pups n|ii)n llii' rnoki'i ii's lia\ in;,' Ijcnn niilicrd al an; liini' prinr lo my \ isil in IS70. lint wticii I af,Miii vi-^ilcd llic is- lands in I.S'.KI, I ri)iiiiil il a smI>ji'i'I (d' iimcli solii-ilinli' liy tliii.- inlrn'slrd in tin' pit - pi'tnalion (dl llii' seals, anil in |S!M illiad assumed smli plupni linns as lo eaiisu se'ions alaiiii. Tile nalives niakin;,' the drive> lirsl discoNeiud lids tiouldc. Ilien s|ieiial airenls took imle, and taler on I lldiik almost every one who was alluwed In visit l/ii' /iio/icn't'seonld not closu lliuir eyes or nostiils to ttio ^'reat nnndier id' dead pups to lie seon on all sides. Now Ihis is Iho parlicidar point : In company with special A^ent Murray, Captain Iloii[>or, ami enfiineerllrurlnn of tlie Corwin, 1 visileii llie //(''/ami lldi/nilrh ninlirrifx.St I'anI Islands, in Au;,'nsl |.s!i| , Lord Hannen. — On Si Pan! Islands .' Mr Phelps. — Yes. Lord Hannen. — I thouffhl Iho ohjecl of your ohserviilion was lo shown that pups wore also dead on SI (ioorfje's Islaiul. Mr Phelps. — Vos, hut il was said on thai Island il was contiiUMl to /iC'i rookeries, and this witness li'stilies lo visiliii}^ olhor rookeries on Ihal island — lovisiliii}; the ileef and the tJarholeh rookeries whieli are diUcrenl. Mr Carter. — Tolstoi and I'olaviua are said lo he Ihe ones. Mr Phelps. — Their proposition isthallliis is rontiiu'd lo Tolstoi and i'olavina. This witness whilst on the same island visited 2 other rook- eiies. He coidiniies thus : and saw one ol' IIk' most pitiahle sif.'lils thai I have; ever witnessed. Tlioiisands — 'JiO* — of (loail anil dyiii}; imps well' si^alli'ird (iviT till? I'Diikoi'lis wliilc llii' sliciics wcir liiii'il Willi liiin);i'v, I'liiailali'd ll'llf I'rl lows with tlicir ryes turiii'il towards the sea iiUi'i'iiif; |ilaliitlvi' i'rii'> t'oi' their iiinlliers wliirli wen' de-iini'd iii'M'r In return. hr Akerly vn:is u lesidiMil |iliysii-iiMi oti SI I'aiil iti IK'.M. <>:i(l nl |in^.') will III' rntiiiil his li'sliiiioii). II is sn liiii^' liiMriii}; mi this |>i>iiil, iillliiMi^li il isiiiliTesliiii; iiMil M'lV iiiiii-li In lln' jHiiiil, llial I will iiiily (rail a litic III' l\Mi lici'i' and lliri'i'. liiil il is jiis| luiieliin^ lliis |iai'lii'iilar |iiiiiil, williiiiil j;iiiii^ (isiT his I'viilciiei' in sii|i|mii'I nl' Ihi! ;:i'iii'i'al |iriiii'i|ilr Ihat is Mill (liMiicil. lie says : Dnrini; my slayiMi the ience nt ipiile ,i iiumliei' nl v.iiiii:.- ~eaN III! (/// III'- iiiiik cnc.s in an emaiialril .ind .c|p|iariiill\ very wi'.iK (MriiJiliMM. I w.is ii'i|iii'-li(| |i_\ the (lovernmenl .\t;enl In exaniiiie sunn' nl ihe eair.i-»i'. tor 'lie |iiii|misi! idilelerminiiiH the eaiise cir laiise- 111 their death. / r,\ili;l miil iriil'.iul urn nil llir lUmli.'vn's. Oil II// dead seals Were III he rniiiid ill imiiii'n->e iiiiinliers. Their iiiiiiilier was mure a|i|iarenl mi llinse rimkeries. the watei sides nl wliieli were mi smnnth imiinil, niul (hi) e\e eniilil f,daiire nver |iateliis id jfi'iinnd. Iiiiiidiitds nl' I'eut iii e.^lenl. whii'li were IliirkU -ireAii with I'aie.isse^. Where Ihe w.ilir side nl' llie rimkeries, as al. Ninth- east I'liint 'lid Ihe llce|\siiiilh ol' Hie villa(.'e werenn rneky jirmind, the immense lllimh '1' id' dead uer' lint sii a|ipaielil. hill a ein-er exaininalimi shiiwed that the ilead were there in eipially .i:ieal iiiimliers. siallered amnii;.' the nn-ks. In smiie hiialilies. Mil' t;i'nnnd <'.a~ ><> thnkly strewn witli the dead thai mie had In piik hi^ way eareliilly in mder In avnnl Nlippini; mi llie eni avs.'s. Ihe i."'at lli.i-s nl' dead ill all ca-^es was wilhiii a shmt distame nl Ihe w.iler's ed;.'e The patihe- nl dead wiillld Ciimiiienei! al Hie water's eil;.'e. and streh li in a wide swartii up ilitn Hie I'oiikery. .Xniniiust Hie iminiiise ina-M'~ nj dead '.ere mIiIhiii In he Imind the careasses lit' lull ;:iiiwn seaU. hill the lanasses wi re tlmse nl pnps m jmin;; seaN hiirii that year. I ean vive im idea nl' tin ex.ii'l iiiillher nl de:iil. lint I helieve i''at they iniild niily h' iiiimlii'i ed hy Ihe lliniisalids im null riiiih-rri/. AInii!.' Ihe water's eilt;e, and sialleieil aiiinnj-l Ihe dead, were i pi lie a nninherol live pnps wliirli were iiiaii eniaeialed rniiditiiiii. and Ml I'lirlh. His wlinji' lesliiiiunx ^iiuiijil he read if lime in'iiiiilleil. Now. Ihe last Willi,-. I shall nlVr In I'r (la-o l;>2, is Mr .1.1'.. Iled- palli who. says : l'.\ieptiiiv a lew pups Killed hy tin.' sill r iii'i'asiniK.ily, it has lieeii deiiimislraleil Ihat all the pnp" I'mind dead are pnnr and slarved , .mil when exaninied, their htniiiai lis aie I'mmd In lie witliniil a si^ii id' I I any snit. In ISMI, Hie innKeries nil St. I'anI Island were envered, in plaii's, willi dead pups, all nl'wliiidi had every syiuplnm III liaMiiLT died oi' hunger, and mi npeniii); several id' them, the stnmaeh^ were rminil In he ■inply, Niiw , Mil' llrilisli l'.iiiiiiiii.>iiinei'> Ihenisi'lve^ have mil deiiii'd Ilia! Iherr were |iii|is nil iilliel' I'liiiltel les jjiaii I'lilslni and I'uiiiV ilia . heeail-i' ill socliiin .'j.j.'i III' llii'ir liepurl lliey sav : Tliemmt.ilil\ wa> al liisl enlnelv Imal. and lllnll^ll later a eertaiii iiiHiilicr id dead pup- Were Iniind nil v.iiimi-. (■•nkerie* examined, iinlhiiiK nl' a eharaeler eniii- paialdewilh that on Tnl-lni liinkelV wa- iliM'nM'led. — 22(»r; — iki'i'ids Thftv wcro llicro for 12 (lays, iiiid [)' Akcrly has explained llie dif- forencp. Now, Sir. Ihal is my niiswvr lo lliis |iro|>osilioii. Wiial is llic warrani for Ihe claim Hial llu; iiiorlalily of IIm!S(! pups was coiiliiied lo special rooK(!rioson one Island? Tlmn il is said U\ my Iciirnfd friend llial llie morlalily appeared aj,'ain in IH'.tJoii llie same mokiiries whi'O |)ela;;ic sealinf; was repressed by Ihe iwuiits nirmli in liehrinf; Sea.' Ilow far il was repressed is a mailer of conjechire; hnl Ihal il was inlended lo he repressed is nndonhled. (Jf course, of sealin;? Ihal evaded Ihi; uiodus, we have no ancomil iu^re. The President. — Have you any reason lo suppose Ihal IJehriuK ^"'i> was nol ipiile (dosed (o sealing'.' Mr Phelps. — i have im reason ! . oppose il, founded up(m any evidi'ucc or infornudiiui : I i>m nol lo I,- underslood as sa\in" so. The iiiiiiliis ///vv/,// closed Ihal -.ea. Thai il was allempled lo |,e enforced hv hoih (iove/unieiils in pioii failh is un(pi('>lionahle — Ihere is no d;;iil)l ahoul Ihal. Mr Justice Harlan. -II wa- slaled in ihi' iii.;uiii,;iil Uial so.oe f,'ol into lieiirin;; Sea, hrj'oi'c Ihey pil notice of tjn' uidiliis riifnt/i. Mr Phelps. - Ves ihrre is s,,nie evidence of Ihal Mi„|. The President. —In IH'.II .' Mr Justice Harlan. — Ih'.M. Sir Charles Russell. —The lif;ures that [\- not. I .lo not know and I do not ui.derlake to sav. My friend mav le .piili' rij:lit in the lifjures of llie iiiiinlier ol -kins he f^ives for au;;iit i know. In Ihal year IH'.t2 the niiniher of d.^ad pups declin.d lapidlv and tlun there were nolle seen e\. cpl mi these Iwo rook eries of To'sloi ;ini| I'ojaviiia. Mr Macoim in Ih" Hritish Conriler C.asi-. and Mr Stanley l!rown in the Inited Stales floiiuter Case, and Mr Lavender anil Mr Murray, all show that the morlalil\ lA' IH'.IJ was conliued lo those rookei'ies, and that e\i(leiice uiidouhledly may ha\e mislead m\ friends, and tlie\ have cariicd tin' conclusion that was applicahle |o ////// time lo an iiii/rriiir jii'iiod. .Now wlial does Ihal show .' II shows lltal (he mfir- (ality of IH'.II and oi Ihe pre\ioiis year everywhere else »<"r'pt lui lltosc rookei'ies, miisl have Immmi due lo pela,yic sealing iiide. \ou ascrilic it to some cause Ihal no iiifiennily has hceii ahle lo sdjip'sl , much le-- to nio-.p. \iiw Ihe I'videiU'c is nol asiceed as to whether Ihe niortalih m Ihose two rookeries was or was not as great a- lltai which was noticed in (he sunu' rookeries iu I8'.H ; 1ml the evideniir lliat we rely upon — the evi- — 2206 — donrfi of Mr Murray, flio assisliinl Tidiisiiry ngoni, nnil tlio cvidoncc of Mr Urown in llio lliiilcd Slates Case — an^ l)olli very explicit, to llie point — dial tlie morlalilv on those rookeries in 1H'J2 was nmeli less than on !lie same rookeries in 1891. Colonel Murray says : I went iivcr llip roiikcrii's carefully, iDokinjr lor di'ad pups. Tlic Inrgosl nuin- l)c'r on any rookery oniiri'i'd on Tolstoi, but liiTe, asou llin rookeries ^'tMirially, lint lew of tliom wore lo be seen as cuiuparod with last year. In his deposition in the case he testifies lo liavinfi seen about 'MH\0 dead pups in IH'.H . Then he };oes on lo say : ibis was 111!' lirst lime iii my four seasons residence on the islands, tlial the number of dead pups was not (greater tbau could be; acciuinlcd for by natural causes. Then Mr Slaidey Hrown says al papc HHH of the llniled Stales (a)un- ler Case : Dead pups were as conspicuous by Ibcir infrcipicncy in t.S!)'2 as by Iboir luinio- rousncss iu is:i|. In no iustaru'c was Iberc to be nnli'd an unusual uuiiibei' ol dead pups, except on tlic breeding- ^'rouiuls of Tolstoi, tbc pilion, rbaraclc^' ami size of whicli },'av(^ prominence to tlic (Mrcasscs. Here tin' imu'lalily, wliile iu uo way approacbin^ that of the previous season, was still beyond Ibe normal, as indicated by Ibe deatbs upon Ibe oilier breeding; grounds. Now the evidence on llie other side is solely, as far as I know, that of the ohservalioii as in l(S'.)|, hecuiisc jl d,ies not appear llial lie was on Polavina in IS*.)| al all. ami li(> coulil mil make any eamparisoii : ImiI he lakes a nalive with him lo the rooki'iv, and he (juides llic nalive if he properly iiiidersldiul him (or, raiher, if Ihe nalive jiropeiK umler- slood him , to the elVeet that there never had heen hefore so many dead pups ill I li(> rookeries. Now as to Tolstoi rookery Mr Macoiiii is Ihe only wilni'ss who saw a f^reater nuniher of ihtad on Tolstoi iu IK<,)2 lliaii lliere were in IS'.d. lie was on Tolstoi in the |)revioiis year, and he took a native alonj; with him lo corrohorate his opinion of IH',»2 and he ipioles fidin tlw laller's slalemeiil. The pholofriapher was asked lo vi'iifv a slalemenl of the ii;ili\e. and Ihe lanfj;uaf,'e, whali'ver was meant, is : " When asked " — that is wIkmi the unlive was asked — " When asked whelher there were as many seals iiiol dead pups- in IS'.I'J as in IH'.II, he replied •• more; more lliMii ever I saw hefore ". C\eu MrMaemin iinihuihledK niiderslood Ihal. hi'caii-c he ;;ives il as supporliiif; Hie claim thai Ihere were iinu'e dead piip- In IH<.)2 than in lcni ill iiidicale Ihal Ihe nalive did mil so iind' rstaiid the slalenieni thai he was makiiif;. II wuiild he ver\ plain — (the native says no such Ihin^) if it were iml Ihal Mr Macmin ciles him, evideiillv understanding: that — 2207 — llinl was wlint lio incaiit lo say. .Mr .Mayiiiii-il says in tli(> ruiirsi' of his nriidavil : — We walkcci (o that pari of Tolstoi rookury on which dead |nips woro lyirifr in frrnal Miinibi'i's, and while wr wito slandiii^r within a tew yaids of tho limit cil' the {.'round on whi"'h theso dead paps weii', .Me .Macoiin askod Antuli MidovrddlV — lliat is lilt! nalivc — whi'lhor he thon^rhl Ihoro wen' a'* many of i/n-m as lliprc woro last yoar, to V 'iii'h III' rrplii'd, " .Mori-; moic than I ever saw hi'l'orc ". Well. I makt' Ilia! (il)SL'rvali(iii ii|m)Ii (lie ovIiIimk'c lor what it is worth. II is iiul I'din lii>ivi> liy any moans. It is an ohsorvation thai is fair lo niakt' ii|)oii lli(> lan;;tia^i> (if lh(> wilni'ss. Now il is oiiK lair, as I am dealing wilh Ihi^ wholo of this ovidfMicn lo ruaii soiiii'lhiiii; IVinii Mr Macnun's ri'|i(irl. ll is only fair In read liiis — il is not iinporlanl lo nic, Iml I do iiol wani to f;iv(' anv unfair iin|ircssion of Mr Maroiin's li'slininnv ; and indi'i'd I inal\i> all Ihcsc ohscrvalioiis (|uili> riMniMnhi'i'in;; that all this les- liniiin\ is Ml jiriiil hi'for'i- llii> 'rrilniiial, and Ihal il is not at all ii(>iM>ssarv for Mil' III ri'fi'r In llic wliiili' of llic cNidciin' or Ihc whole of IIk? conloxl ill iii'di'i' lo III' fair. Mr Mai'oim, al paj^o I i(i of his llo|iorl, whii'h is in the Isl vohmio of Ihc .\|(|tiMidi\ In Ihc l(rili>h ('.nimlcr Case says : — Di'ad piip> wi'ii' lir>l uuliii'ij liy iin' mi iiiNlni rookery the l!Mh of An.u'usl, thoiif-'h pho|iii;i',ipli- liikiii liy Mr M;iyii;iiil on tile SIh ol Aumisl \\liih< I was mi St diiii'vi' l-hiiiil, «hii\v thai al lli:il dale lln'ri" wi'io nearly, il Mot qnilc as many of Ihi'in on this iiiokciy as llirn' were ten days later. At the lime I llixl nulieed (he dead piips I eminled liver lutir thmisa' ' , i.OIHI ... Tlie pups, when I tiisl saw tlii'iii, appi'Mii'd lo huve heeii dead iml mont than two weeks, and nearly all seem til li,i\i' died alimil Hie same lime... This roukeix was revisited on the ".Msl nl' Auirnsl. Al llii^ lime an estimate was a^aiii made nl' the niimhcr of dead jnips. A lai'fje hand nl liidlii-^ihiekie on their \^a\ rioiu the water lo the hanliiif: ^■tniinil al the liai'k 111 rol>|i>i loukery, had slopped lo rest mi llii' {:rmiiid mi wliieh the pups were lyiiit;, and iml a p.ol of lliem: so lliat mi this i.ceasiun a few le^s llian ;I,SIM) were enunted... My last visit lo Tolstoi iiinkery w.is made on the lllli uf Sep- lenilier. No living; seals weie In he seen mi that part of the rookery (.'rmmd on which Ihe dead pups were, and it was now apparent that Ihey extended linlher lo tliu li'll than is slmwii in the phnln:,'i',iplis taken of them . Sir Charles Russell. — ^oll arc mil reading' Mr Macoiin's ItcpnrI con- limioiisly •' Mr Phelps. - .No; I sKip a passu;;!', — I am rcadini; an cvlraci j.'ivcn inc. lie };iics on : Thai i'^ In say, a part of llie ;;iniind nii which soals an' taken in lliese plintn- ^laplis had ihail pups mi il, which al that lime I'nnid iml lie seen : this wnuld add scm'imI hiindied In mv I'minei' estiniale nf their nnmliei'. .N'n pup-- Ihal hid died recently were In lie ^el■|| an\ wlieie. II seem< reasiinalily celiaili III. it .ill llie dead pilp^ ^eeii nil Iliis p.iij nf 'I'nlslni jiinkeiy died al aliie.i Ihe same lillie... tif ciiiirsc, I do nol read llic whole of Mr M., •null's olisciwalions, — I do md prnpn^c In. Thai shows, however, Ihal when Mr Slanlcy lli'nwn left Ihc Island, Ihc inorliililv on Ihc Tolshd rookeiv was over, so Ihal his — 2?0S — lesliiDoiiy, Nvliicli I have lu'luio ivad, on lliis sul)jocl, was mndo willi full kiunvlcdjii' and olisfivatioii ol'all llic tacts lliero were. Now, jiisl iiiK! ollitH- olisiTvalinii on lliis siiI)J(H'I of dead pii|»s. Of coiirso, this is not lo lif (h'liii'd tlial in IH',12 while [ho. ituxlus virrm/i [tro- vaih'd, and wliilc lln' nnnil)iM- of nnrsing-niotliers tliat wore l\illed ninst in all |)i-()h:ihilil\ lia\(! heon small, there was a mortality on two rook- eries of Ihi! Islands ^ivatiM- or less — Mr Mueoiin stales il a piod deal hiirlier than Mi' Mnrras ami Mr Slanlex Brown slate il. They are all wit- nesses entitled lo atli-ntion. Their tesliniony dilFers only lo that extent: lint the decisive |iiiinl has already heen alluded lo, (hat it was only on those rookeries that any mortality of dead |ui|»s tliat was notieeahle was lo he seen in IS'.liJ. Onr witn(>sses lestify that that, as eom|)ared with former years, was sei'v small. Mr Maennn's testimony is dill'erent. Now then, th(> decisive point is, what was Ihe cause of Ihe death.' The evidence (•oni|)lelely makes out, I thiidt I am antliori/ed in say in;;, that in all th I am no! awai'e ol any) — of the numerous slalemeids that have lieen made liilore, that Ihey wei'e in an emaciated condition, and that in niinn-roiis instances wlien they were ilissected, and their slomachs opened, IIk^v were found to he witliont any nourishment. In IH'.IJ ilie dead pups were iicnei'ally in fjood condition, and not imli- caliiij; (leal!) hy starvaliou. and Ihe tesliniony of Mr Macoun hims(df eslahlishes that. He says this in his report at pa^e li7 of the same .\ppendiN : riiat lli'ii (liMllis wi'ic iiul lau^iMl liy -liirvalidii w,is very evidpiil, us they were, wilti IVw cxceiilinns, laitrc^ and w.'ll ilcvcliiiieil. iii>l small and cniaciatcd, as is alni"«l iiivarialily Ilic lasr with (liu-it^ llial aii' kiiown t(i lia\e wandiii'd away I'l'iini III'' liK'i'diii^ inouiids and dii'd ciC starvaliou. Now, Sir. hv Ihe tesljuKmy of S\v Macciioi Inmself. who very fairly ^'i\e> his idisi'i'valion on thai point il is plain Ihaf the seals that di(>d on Ihi'se ronkcries ill IS'.llJ. did tiol die id' sliirvalinn. Il is not allritiuttihle lo pel.i;;ic M'aliiif;. I' is cpialiy plain upon llo' e\iilenci' (d' iiiaii\ wit- nesses, wliiili is iiid ' miliadii led, llial in pie\ioi-; veins on all the islmids and all llie rookeries Ihey did tli<> u\' ^larvalioii. .Now what lliese pups died of on these two i keries in IH*,)2, il is tpiite mil of inv power to lell — Ihe evidence does iiol inform mc. The c\i(lt'iire does inform me that IJii'V did iiol die of slarvalion. What Ihev ilid die of in previous vears the cvidiMice does i'slahli>-li. .Now I leave llial sulijei I and I leave il willi Ihe ohservalion llial willi Ihe evrejiiiiili of llie (lill'eiellee wlliili I have ll'ieil lo slllle faielv helweeil .Mr Slaiilev liiown ami Mi' Mniray, on Ihe one liainl. and Mr Maeomi on Ihe oilier, ao lo llie relalive pi'opoilioii 'd Hie deiid pups iu ilie.e Iwo rookei'ie* there is no conlradielion lliei'e. Then- i, evidence llial mu>l speak for iNelf and which I eaiiiiol assi>l llie Triliunal lo reconcile. \Mial is the coiiseipience of all this? \iid a^ I am now i oiniii^' lo a new — 22(l!t topic, jillli(iiigli il is ii low miiiiilus hufuru lli .iie at all lainiliar u illi seal lilV II i.innol ho siii'iesslnliv iiiiileiided llial Ihey all dieil of n.iliiial raiM'-. There I- iin disease ainont; llie ('.oiiiinaiidei- I -land seal< ; and while a ei'ilain mini her orymiii;: |)ii|isaie always exposed lo (ho danger ol' heinir eliislied to dealh... or ol' heiii^ dii.wiied hy the siiil', yet the-e eaii«os id death will imt aeeminl tor the ^.'lealei- iiii'italily ol |>ii|is »hii'li took jilaie dining' the |>,'i-l snininei'. Ilesiile< liie hmliis ol' the dead (lups I I'l'l'ei' 111 are IIiom' ol starved animals, heiiiL.' liieally emurialed. Then Mr .Malowansky says iind(>roatli, in roiiaid to this siilijeel in the Uniteil Slates Culllller I'.ase, pa^e I!'/' 1, — he is the Sllpeiinleiiileilt of the liiissian lioveriiiiieiil nil Ihose islaiiils. you will ri'iiieiiilier : Alter Ihe piip^ liave learned lo -Willi a ninnher id' dead piip> have heeii lepoiieil V.iltod nlnii>; tin; .sliore hy tliu surf, lint llio imiiihei' was always ineonsider,ilile. These pups were always );roy ptips, their liodie-, were always near the water s edge, and never hack on the rookeries. Within Ihe last two years. Hi,! n.ilives notieed, llowever, another class of dead pups on Ihe i>iaiids. T ;ese were alwiiys hl.iek piip ■ whieli wore too small to h.ive learned to swim, anil wore rniiiid on the hreed- iii}.' uroniids two himdred yards I'rmii the w.iter. Si di di'ad pnps have heen ohserved since Ihe sealing: vosstds he};an to take seals ahmil the inland, this year (ISlti . Ihe iiiiiiihers liecame so '.neat that the latter was cmnnioidv l.ilked ahmil on Ihe i-laiiiN, and the i.atives made cmnplaint to Hie Governor. It was my opinion ,iiid the' iiiii\orsal opinion ol all on the islands thai tliose doalli- wore cau.«L'd hy — 241 (I — slnrvalioii. wliicli rosiillcd I'miii llii- iiioIIiims liavjii^' lircii killcil liy tlu' scaliii;; .skiiiini'i's wliilr out Icriliii);. Tlii> was also lliu i>|iiiiic>ji ul'tliu iiativrsaiiil oIIiits oh 111!' i^lall(l< during' all nf lasl season (ISdl). The inallur was discussed willi [\u> 111 ilisli llc'lirin^' Sim (loiiiiiiissioncrs. wlm wimt al llrlii'iiii; Ulaiid I'or almiil a dav and a hall ill Si'|il<'tiilii'i' id' llial vi'ar. Sni;.'i'i'nll lidil IIhiu aliniit il, and I artcd as lliii uili'r|>i'i'U'r al lli(> linii'. I'ln' ^.tcx pups lirn'tiiriiic iin'iilinni'd iis iia\in^' liii'ii killiM) wi'i'i' always pliinip and in (.'onil I'lmdiiinii, whili' lli>'-^i' lilack pups wt'i'i; in all rasiis von lliiii and iinari.itrd, sliowiiij; I'xidi'iit sitrns id slaiAatimi. Aiiti \oii will i-(Mii<'inl)i'r, lo loiirliidi', tin* jiassa^u IliitI I i-(>aii u litiy or two iv^n rroiii Ihi' li'tlcrDJ'Mr ('.jiiclikiiic, llu; Uiissiiiii Kon'if;ii Miiiislcr. in (lie (•i>rr('S|»iiiiiloiit(' willi Ilit; Ifiilisli (jovermiii'iil, ulxnil (heir s('i/.iiif< vessels, where, in slalinj; lii> <"ase. anil liie n'a>i()ns for liis sci/iire, he slated llu'se laels, inclndinf; IIh' I'ail Ilia! Ilie |m|is died on Hit; islands on ai'ntuni id' the loss of Ihcii' nioliiers. .Now I conn! to another .jneslioii. \\ hat is the consecnienec of all this .' \\ hat is llie eonsetinence .' We say the constHineneo is llio inevi- hilili' cslmninalion of Ihe iininial. We say thai Ihe rednetion in the niindifi's 111' llii' -eal lienl, whi.li lln-se ('.oininissioncrs , ailin;^ joinlly, af;n'ril had laKrii [ilare — il was jjii' iiid\ jininl n|ion whii'li Ihev did a^ree — and llial il wa^ allrilmlahie lo llic ar| of man, wi; sa\ Ihallhat dimi- nution is owin^ to this indisi-riniah' killing, and wi; say Ihe n(M;essary and inevilahle ('oii-.i't|iienre 'd' il will lie Ihe e\lerminalioii id" Ihe seal herd. .Now on llial |iiiiiil |ii'i'ha|>-^ \on will hear wilh me wliilr I al lirsl. eonsidur verv liriel'iy, irHincral I'nsliT will he so kiiiil as In assisi mo h\ (loinlin^; out. what has lakeii plare I'Isi'wIi ti-. The islands marked in red, on l/ie map now hid'ore Ihe 'rrihunal . were islands whieli Ihe leslimony ^aN^ were niiee |iii|inloiis : where Ihe seals were as tinmri'oiis as lliey aie on liii' I'riliilid' ULiinl-. and wrre ohlained in ;;reat inimhei's. W'lial has lieeome nl' (hem'.' lixeepl 1 htdieve on Ihe Kohos Islands where . lirsl visiled Ihi' Island of Mas-a Knero. olV Ihe eoa>i| of Chili, in IT'.lT. Iliere were eslimaled lo he :>.llllll.llfHi e. and I will jiive my learmd friend- till' ii'lcrcnces. if Ihev desiie. where the Ic-limony llial 1 read i- lo he funiiil. Then .liian I'ei'iianiic/ i- a few mile- ee-iwani idMas-a-l'iieio. I>am- |iier, who >isiled this island in HiS:!. sa' s thai miiIs sw.irm a- thick ahoni this isluud of .loliu Kernando. as if Ihev iiad no nlher pl.tce m lln; world lo — 4211 — live in. Tlioro is not a l)uy or rock llidt oiio can \n'\ usliorn on l)nl is full of lliinn. Then, (lin nnreslraincd lakin;? of Iho seals on llio Innd l)c}j;nn in I7'.t7. ami in llie year 1800 there were no seals lo he I'lMind on any pari of il. In IHUI, llie i.-!and was visited, and a lew fur seals were seen, luil very lew. The coast of Chili has the same history. I need no! read the slory over a;;ain. The same ahoiil (la|ie Horn and llii! Falkland Islands. There Ihey aic not qnile none, hecanse the Hrilish since I8SI have |iiil an Ordi- nance in lurce Nshich was presented lo the Trihunal in anollicr connexion, and llicN are {gradually increasinf;, hid as yet assnnie no commercial importance. On the South :>, they wen^ repurled as almost extinct. In I87i, aller many years' rest, Ilic I-. lands were visilid,and Ll.'iOskins were taken. In 187.'), live' vessc-is secured (](I0, and in I87(i, four vessels (!ould only id)tuin 1 10. In i8*.)2 Captain |{mlin;.:li)n fnund ilie S(>als in lliat I'c^idu practically extinct, only a few sirajiulinjj; ones hciiii,' sisen. Then the South Shc'lland Islands is another place. The lirsl sealing vessels in 181'.) readily ohtained car;,'oes of very lin(> skins. The news of the discovery was (piickly spread and h;. the end of the next year a ileel of :{(! vessels reached the region to ^alhiM' in the valuahle pelts. Captain Weddell gives this account : I lu! iiuaiililv <■( souls liilseii olf IIu"M' i^laiiils l)y vessels Inun ilill'ercnl pinls iliMiii(.' llie vears IS-JI iukI IS->:^ itiny he eiiiii|iiilei| ,nt ll'JDOIIII and llie (jiianlilv nl Si>ii-ele|ilianl nil at lliil) tuns. This vahialile aaiiiial, (he lui'-seal, iiil^'hl, hv a law siiiiil.ii' III thai wliieli ii'slialiis lisjni iiieii in llii- slxe of Hie nie.sh nl' lliejr mis, have benn spanMl lo leiidei- aiiinially IIIUIKMI jiii-seals |ii|- inaiiv veal's In come. This wiiiijcl have rolliiwi'd I'luni iml killiny the iiinllieis until the voiinK were aide to laki^ the water and even llieii only those wliic h apiiearcMl In he idd lii^'ether with a prn- |iiirlinii id'lh(! iiiahw Ihendiy iliiiiinishin^' their total niiiidti'r hill in slow |ii'o;.'res- sjoii. 't'his system in |ira('lised at Ihe tliviu' la I'lala. The Island nl l.olins :ii |hi' inoulh nlijial river coiilaiiis a <|iianlity id seals .\iid he rofei's lo llial where there is a .similar ordinance or (imvision. He says : TIh- sysloin nl' exleriuiiiatinn was piaelisi-d, however. mI He' South Shillands; for whenever a simI reached Ihe hiaeli, oI'vshaleMr deiiniiiinalioii, he was iiiiino- dialelN Killed anil liis -.kin (akeii, and hy this means al Ihe eml of Ihe sieonil ye.ir Itie animals heeamo ne.irly ixliinl. TIio \nnni.', havini,' In-I Iheir innthei^ whuii only Ihreo or hnir days old, uf course died, whieh at thii lowest calculation excocdod 1 01) out). Then Mr Williams, in a IJeport lo .i r.iunmiltee of the Congress of the United Slates, speaking of the Shetland Islands says : In IS"-.>, lifly years alter Ihu slau^rliler al Ihn Shetland t-lands. Ihe |oi alii:t>s Ijermi' iiientioneil were all revisited liv aimtlier L-eneralion oT hnnleis. and in the fl.1ll_) sixloiMi years llial have clapst'd lliiiy liav(! soiuiIkmI every licarli ami (ileanoil every ri)rk known to llieir preilncessors and foiinil a few serlnded and inh()s|)ilaljle places before unknown; and llie nidi rosnlt of all llieir loll and daring; for lliese yi'ars scarcely ainoiinled In l.'iOitd skins: and now not even a renmanl remains save on llie rocks (t{\ Ilie pilch of C.ipe Morn. The last vess(d al Soulh Shelland lliis year (d' ISSS, after hunliii}: all the ^'ronp.fonnd only Ha skins, ami the last, at Ker^^Mielan I.and, only lil, inchuliiiK pups. Tlicn llie Isliiiiil ni' THsliui (r.Vciinlin and (lnii},'li Islamis, midwiiy bol- woon r.ii|)os lliirii ami (iood Hope, were loniiorly al)iiinlaiilly occupied, and in IS87 C.aplain C.omor, on a soaliiif; voyaj;e, Icl'l six men on (ionfjli Island, where lliey remained nine monllis, laUin^' oniv alioiit .'ill skins. Then on Ihe wesi coasi of Soiilh MVicii, llie same liisloiy is Irne. The immense nnmlier of seals in this localily. on Ihe islands and aloii^ Ihe I'oasI, W(>re viftoronsly liunled, he},'iiiniiin ahoiil IT'.MI, and larjje qnaii- lilies were laKeii hy sealinf; vessels al intervals up lo IHI5I), when, owiii;; to Ihe diminislieil nnmlier, sealing hocame iinprotitahhv TliL'ii the Islands soiilh-easi of Ihe Cape of (lood Mope, anolher place onco covered with a niiillitiide of seals; so that Captain Cox, who visiled there in 178'.), says : (In llrst laiidiii.L', wi' lonnd llii> shore covered with such niultitndu of seals, that we were (diliu:i'il In disperse theni liefoie we f;ot oiil of the lioat. Kill, on all lliese Islands, only a few slraj;j;liii;; seals are fonnd, in numhers so small as lo make their piirsnit iinpiolilahle. In .Australia and .New /ealand al Ihe hefiinnin^; of the present eenlnry, fur-seals ill considerahle niimliers were fonnd aloiii; Ihe soiilh-wesl coast of .\iislrali,i ami in the vicinity ofTasmania. Slimiilali-d l»y these reports, till* advenliiroiis si'alers discovered an appareiitiv inexhaiistilile siippiv of these animals on the niimerons small islands sonlli of New Zealand. In IS03 a single vessel look away from the islmid of anlipodes lid, (Mill prime fur-seal skins. Macipiarje Island was discovered in IHll by a sealer, who procured a earjio of Sd.Ofld skins. Senlinj; dm these islands was al its hi'l-hl from |H|(I lo IH:»(». In \\\i> \('"i'^ :{llll,(llMI skins were olilaiiied, one vessid ciirrviiif.' awav 10(1,(111(1. Nou Murrell, who visjlcil those re|;ioiis in Ih;{(I, reported that the sealers had made such coiii- plele destruction " as scarcely to leave a hreed. not one fur-seal " lieiii"; found hy him. .V few, however, survived Ihe f;eneral sliiii-hler, and, ill receiil \ears, under llie pndecliiMi of Hie uo\eriimeiil of .New Zealand, a small annual catch of from one lo two thousand fur-seals are now taken. .Now lliere is Ihe liislorv of the whole of the world, as far as these animals are known |o e\i-l in il. M\ IcMriied Irieiul suvs these animals were mil killed ill the sell; |||e\ were killed on Hie Iskinds. Thai i> Iriie niidoiililedly. Tlo'v were killed on land ami watei'. Il is mil the killing of a seal in Ihe water thai e\lermiiiales Die race. The same sea! mas hi' killi'd in the wah-r as well a-; on land wilhoiil all'eclin^' Ihe dtiralion of the race. The only dill'ereni'e would he thai in killing in the water, yon — 2-213 — do not siivo so many of lliosc i kill. Thai is nol the |ioiiil. It is llio iiKliscriiniiialc Killing by wlii (lio females are deslroyed and breedinj; slopped and llie yonng and llie |iregnanl. Thai is wlial dcslrovs the race. M' we were enjjagcd on llie pari of llic (Jniled Slates in Killing tin; I'emaie seals on llie NIaiids, and lli(> pelagic sealers were engaged in Killing the mule seals at sea, this ease wonld he cxaelly reversed. I mean Killing, the same seals. If they were doing on llie sea what we are doing on the Islands, or if we wiJie doing on the Islands what they were doing al smi, llien IIk! presei'valion of tlu; fur-seal race would, of course, require the eessalion on the Islands and nol al sea. It is Ihe indiscriminale killing by which llie slock is deslroyed. .Now I wani to refer — I ho|)i! nol tediously — to \ ol. i of Ihe IJniled Slates .\ppeiidiv, al page 411. \\(! have collected there lellers from many of Ihe most distinguished and leading naluralisls in lh(> world, from many eonnlries on this siibjecl. I cannot all'ord the lime, in what I have; lo do, to read lo yon aloud, what I should be so glad lu read, all these lellers, but I may just advert lo some passages in some of lliein. and I will res- |teclfull asK. if these letters have not already engaged the allenlion of the .Members of the Tribunal, — and, ol'conr>e. in this vast massof nii'lerial. I caiinol tell what has been read and what not — I would respecll'ully ask the perusal of these pages after page 41 1. The lirsl statement is by I'l-o- I'essor lliixlev, and this is not in response lo any eiupiiry — some of llio other lellers are. lie says, al Ihe bollom of page il I. - III till' case nC Ihi' liir--ical lisliorics, llie dcsliiiclive ,i|;('iicy of man is prepotciil on Ilic i'liliijor i^laiiils. II is olivloiis that (lie seals iiii^'lil In' di'stioycd ami itiivcii away coni|ili'li'lv in Iwo or llnci' seasons. Moicovcr, as llic luiiiilicr ol' liaclicloi's, ill .■iny ;;lvi'n sra'^im is racily asi'ciiaiii ', il is [jossilplc lo ki'cp down llic liik(^ lo such a |ii'i'ci'iila,L:i> as sli.ill do no liarin lo IIh' slock. 'I'liu conililloii I'oi' I'l'liiicnl ii7iilalioiis arc here (|nili' ideal. Unl in lltdniiif; Sea and on the iiorlli-wi'st coasl Ihe case is loially allcred. In order lo jiel rid of all oinplicalions, lei il he siiiiposod Ih.il wesleni .Norlh .Smerica, from Ihdiriii).' SIrails to (lalifornia is in llie possi'ssioii of one I'owi'r, and Ihal we have only lo consider Ihe (|iioslioii of refiiilalioiis which llial I'ower should iiiiike ,ind enforce in order lo preserve Ihe I'lir-seal lisheries. Sii|)- pose, liirlher. Ilia! Ihe .iiillioiiiy .>| Ihal Power e\lended over liehrin^ Sea, and over all the iiorlll-wi'sl I'ai'illr, easi of a line drawn from Ihe Slniiiiai:in Islands lo Cali- fornia. I'lider such coiidilioiis 1 should say dookiiif; al iiolliiiiK hul llic prosc'rvalion of Ihe seals Ihal Ihe lie-l course would he lo pioliihil Ihe laking of llie fur-.seals, any- where excepi on Ihe I'lihihd' Islands, ,iiiil lo llmil Ihe lake lo such perceiila};o as experience iro\ed lo In' cuiisisleni with Ihe pri'scrvalion of a f,'oo(l average slock. The furs would he in Ihe hesi order, Ihe waslo of life would he least, and if Ihe sysleiii were lioneslly worked, there coiihl he no danj-'er of over-lishiii^;'. Sir Charles Russell. — Would you read the next passage. Mr Phelps. — I really have nol llie time or I should be glad lo oblige my learned friend. He proiceds to poiiil out whal lii^ coiiccivi^s lo be llii legal diflicullies in llie way. Sir Charles Russell. — lie -iays what he lalls the idial arrangement is iinpraclicalile. Mr Phelps. — lie say il is impraelieable because he assumes there — -2214 — urc \t}ff\\ ohjticlioiis — iint llinl it is im|)rarlicni)l(t IIkmi : finally, Ik; siiVH, ami I will read his (■(iiicliisiDii. (As I liavi> sui«l in roudin^ any pas- sage of lliusu luUci's, I lo li't llii' I'lii-si' ilo lie i'\lir|ialu(l. Miiukiad will not stulTor much if Him ladioM ari< obliged lo ilo witlioul simI skin jackets. That is one. Thi' ollii'i' idiirsc is lo tread down all moroly porsonal and Irndo intcn-st iu piirsiiil III' an airitn^'iiuii'iil thai will work and ho I'uir all iiiniid ; and to "liiik all tlio sliipidilios lit national vanity and political sidl'-scukinK aloiiK with lliein. Sir Charles Russell. — That rclers lo n scheme for nmkiiij; the Prihi- lol' Islands an iiiteruationid concern. Mr Phelps. — No. Sir Charles Russell. — I nssnre you, yes. Mr Phelps. — .Nttw 1 cannot read all these letters, hut in every one of llii'in that I shall notict! I hope the eonte.xl will he read, and it will he oj' III) avail Tor me lo select passages. hr Sclaler, Secretary of the Zoolo}j;ical Society of London has given nn ullidavit in which he says ; 1. Unless proper nirasuri's are lakcn to restrict Ihoindiscriniiiialo capluro oftlio fur-seal in the North I'acillc he Is oro|iinion that the exaniinalion of this species will lak" place in a lew years us it has already done in the ease of other species of the same ;;runp in ullici- pads of the world. 'J. II >eeni< lo hini thai Hie proper w.iy ol' proceedinf; would he lo stop Ihe kill- In); of females and youii).' of Ihe Inr-seal allo};elher. or as far as possihie, and to resliici the killin^r of the males to a certain numher in each year. ,'t. The only way he can i[uaf:ine hy which IIicm' rules could he carried out is hy killiu).' the seals only iu the islaiuls at the hreediu); lime (at which time it appears tlial Ihe yiiun;.' males keep apart from llie females and old males), and hy preven- liuL' allofielhei as far as po>sihle, the destruclion of Wn' fur seals at all other limes anil In other places. I commend lo the lileniion of the Trihiinal an article which this gen- lleman, of his own motion, pidtlislied in " The N'iiiete(>nth Century " ina- ga/,ine, of London, sinci' lliis ai'f^mnent commenced. Il is in the .Line number, entitled " .\ Naliualisl's \iew of tlit! Fiu'-Scal Question ", in which he says he has read this evidence, and he comes out with his views. His not in Ihe Case, and I iiave nol lime to read il, hut I (piile crimmend thallo III!' alteulion of Ihe Ti'ihnnal, as 1 did veuliire, mi a (jueslion of law, lo commend an article hy Mr Tracey, in " The North .American lleview ", who is a very eminent lawyer in the United Stales. .Now Mr Merrian addressed a circular leller of eii(|uiry to various distinguished naturalists indilferenl parts of tiie world, in which he gave Iheiu, as a foundation, certain stalemenls in regard to the nature and habits of the fur-seal, and the conditions of pelagic sealing. — 9215 — Those ocriipy spvoral |m«os, ami in order fairly lo iindorslaml llic aii- swuroftlioso iialiiralisis il would Im liiil fairio ho lirsl an|iiaiiit(>d with lliu laets Ihal wiirc itroi'iilcd in Iht; lelh-r oliMniuiry, ht'causo il" Ihoso farln havciiiislud lluisR^'rMiliciniMi, IhiMi tlii!irn|)iiiinn Nsoiiid hi'^'uod lor tiolhiii^. I iniisl not slo|) lo ruad tlial, hiil I sidiiiiit, svilli great roniidoiicu, it will ho found to 1)0 a corriH-t staleuicnt of facts. Now on |)a;;o il'.). Ilion; is a letter in French, aiul a Iransialioii of Mr Milne Kdwarils, of I'aris. lie is Ihe iliroclor of the niuseuui of natural history. This is hiil an i!xlract and ho rcfi^rs to the exlerniination that has lakeii place everywhere, and he goes on and says, It will sniiii 111! IliM-' Willi llin riill'irhiiiiif imiiiiix in Hid Norlli I'ncillc Uiciiii, anil il is linii' III I'lisiiic til llii'si' animals a si'iiirily w'liirli niay allow llicin n';;ularrf- |ii'iiiiurliiiii. I liavi' rulliiwi'd Willi niiicli atlrnlinu llir iiivi'sli;.'aliiins wliii'li have lii'i'ii liiailr liv llii' ruivrriilllriil iil' llii' Uliilnl Slali's nn lliis siilijrrl. 'I'liii rit|iiilin uf till' Ouiiiiiilssiiini'i's siMit III Hill I'i'iliilol' Islanils havr iiiaili' known lo naliii'alisis a, very lar};i> nuiulii'r of I'actsol'^'runt st-irntillc intiTi'sl, ami havi- iti'iiionsliali'd llutt a M'^rnlati'il syslcni ol' killin;; may In' saTi'ly apiilicil in tlii> rasi- iil' lliusi; liiirils of .suals wluMi lliiiir is a supi'iilnily ormalcs. Wlial mi^lil In' callril a tax on ci'liliacy was a|i|ili>'il in Iliis way in llii' most ^alisr.irtoiy niaiiin'r, anil llir inili'linili' jiri'MT- valion ol till' s|ii'rii's woiilil hiivi- Ih'i'h as>iiiril il' lln' I'mi^'ianls on tlii'ir way hack lo llicir lirn'iliiif.' plarcs hail not lii-i'ii allaiki'ii ami imisiicd in I'vi'iy way. Then l)r I licring of Herlin, Professor of Zoology in the lloyal Agri- cidtural Ciillcgc, wiites a leller which will he foniul at the hottoni of page 420; and reading only an exiract here, h(> siiys : — I am, liki' yoiirsi'ir, of llir opinion llial lln' ri'maikalilu ili'cri'asn of rnr-si'.ils on the rooki'i'ii's of lliii I'liliilol Islamls. wliiili has ol' lali' yi-ais hc'i'oim> moic anil moll' I'viili'iit, is lo III' alliilmli'il iiiainly or pi-rliaps exrliisivi-ly lo tin' iinii'a- sonalilc ili'sliiii'lioii ransi'il liy tlir st'alois who ply llifir aMicalion in the (ipcii sra. Till' only rational iiiulhoil of taking' the fiir-soal and tlic only one that is not likely to rcsiill in llio i'\liM'iiiiiiati A/. '^^.^ IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) V /. // :/ / -^ S. w. 1.0 I.I 1.25 IIIM illllM m IM IIIM \— iA IIIIII.6 ^^ .-^ m m, 'el 'm r^r ^l ^^ /i / '/ Photographic Sciences Corporation 23 WEST MA N STR'^'el WEBSTER, NY. 1<15«0 (716) 872-4503 »^ V 4 ■^ o A' % V % '^^ ^ / o 4^ f/u £?< ^- S'^ :/; — 2216 — Tlion Hr ll.-wtlaub writes a letter, and you will notice (hat thq original as well as the translation, from which I read, is printed. He says : I am far from allribuling to myself a competent judgment regarding tliismattci', but considering all facts wliich yon have so clearly and convincingly combined and expressed, it seems to me tliat tlio measures you propose in order to [irohibit tlio llireateiiing decay of the uortliern fur-seal are the oiili/ correct onc.i prtmhiiiy an effective result. Then Professor Salvadori, from Turin, gives a letter. Dp Leo|iold von SchrencU, of the Imperial Academy of Science, St Petersburg, gives another letter. Then I take l)r Giglioli, the Director of the Zoological Museum, Royal Superior Institute in Florence. Tiiat is a long and full letter. I wish I could read it all, but I will read from the bottom of page i2l. Having conclusively shown that the lamented decrease in the herd of fur-seals resorting to Ihe I'rihilof Islands can in no way he accounted for by the selective killing of non-breeding males lor commercial purposes, which takes place on those Islands under special rules and active surveillance, we nnisl look elsewhere for ils cause; ami I can sec it nowhere hut in Ihe hi'liscritniiKitc Hliiiif/hler, princi- pally practised on breeding or pregnant females, as most clearly shown in yoUf condensed Report, by pelagic sealers. In any case, all who are compoteni iu llie mailer will admit thai no melliod of caplun^ could be more us(desslydeslrnclive iu llie case of Pinnip"dia than that call- ed " pel.agic sealing ". nol only any kind of seleclion of Ihe victims is impossible, but il is admitting much lo assert that out of l/irei' d'jstroyed()//t' is secured and util- ized, and this fur obvious and well-known reasons. Inthecasi! of the iNorlh I'aciflc Fur Seal, Ibis mode of c ipturc and destruction is doubly to be condemned, because the destruction falls P' ,irly exclusively on those, the nursing or pregnant females, which ought on no a' ■ ount to be killed. It is greatly to be deplored that any civi- lized n:' ion possessing lisiiery laws and regulations should allow such indiscrimi- nati,' waste and destrucliun. The stalislical iliiln you give are painfully eloi|uenl, and when we come to the Cduclusldu that Ihe (l'2,,')0n skins secured by pelagic seal- ing in 1891 represent at a miiiimnin one-sixth of Ihe Fur seals destroyed, namely 37;>,000, — that is, calculating one in three secured and each of the three suckling a pup or big with young, — we most uudonbledly need not look elsewhere to account for the rapid decrease in the rookeries on tlii' I'ribilolf Islands ; and I ((uilo agree with you iu retaining that unless lln' malpractice of pelagic scaling be pre- vented or greally chocked, bolh in the Norlh I'acilic and in Ihe Bohring Sea, the eco!iomic extermination of Cdllorliinus timhuis is merely Ihe matter of a low years. The rest of the letter is ('(iiiaily interosling, i)iit I must hurry on. The next Idler is from Dr itaphaiil l!kiiichard of Paris, Professor of the Faculty of Medicine and General Secretary of the Zoological Society of France. II is to the same eU'ocI, and I only call attention to it. Then the letter from I)r William Lilljeborg, of IJpsala, Sweden, and P"ui'essor iVordensKiold, of llie .\cademy of Sciences, Stockholm, is a joint lellei'; and I will read an extract from that : — Wc do not, Iherefore, hesitate to declare thai Ihe fads about the life and habits of Ihe Fur Seal, slated by yuu in y(nir said letter under 1-2(1, shoidd serve as abase for liu! reguiatinns necessary to preserve Ibis gregarious animal from its thi'ealoncd exiincliiiu in a comiiaralively sliorl lime. These regulations nuiy be divided into two categories, namely, lirstly, Uegu- t thq original says : ing tills matloi', ngly combined tier lo i)i'()hil)it •in proviixitiij an F Science, St jseum, Hoyal er. I svisli I i. I'd of fui'-snals ■ liifi sidoclive lives place on oolv cisewiirro iif/lili')\ priiici- liowii in yonp no nielliod <>( llliui liialrali- is inipossiliic, cureiiand util- ) iNoi-tli Pacific lined, iiecauso inaiit females, dial any civi- cli indiscrinii- 'nlly elo(|ucnt, y pelagic seai- I'oyed, namely tlii'(;e suckling elsewhere to is ; and I iniilu lealing Ijc |)re- hring Sea, tlio of a low years. rry on. •lessor of the [il Society ol' it. "iwodon, and lin, is a joint life and habits ■iervc as a base its Ihrealoncd lirslly, llegn- __ 22)7 lalions for the killing, etc., of the I'ur Seals on the rookeries in order to prevent the gradual diniiiuition of the stock; Secondly, Regulations for the Pelagic Sealing or for llie hunting of the Seals swimming in the ocean in large lierds lo and from Ihe rookeries, or around the rookeries during the time when the females are suckling the pups on land. Then tiie last paragraph, — 1 skip one : — As lo the Pelagic Sealing, it is evident that a systemalic hunting of the Seals in the open sea on the way lo and from or around the rookeries, will very soon cause thecompleteextinction of this valuable, and IVomascienlilicponit of view, so extreme- ly interesting and important animal, especially as a great number of the animals killed in this manner are pregnant " cows ", or " cows " temporarily separated from Iheir pups while seeking food in liie vicinity of the rookery, livery one having some experienee in Seal-hunting can also attest that only a relatively small part of the Seals killed or seriously wounded in the open sea can in this manner bo caught. We K.o, therefore, persuaded that a prohibition of Pelagic Sealing is a necessary condition for Ihe jircvenlion of the total extermination of the Fur-Seal. There arc other letters, with which I must not detain yon, from gen- llcmen of eminence in various countries of scientific position and high repute. Now this is scientific testimony those are not seal-hunters or superin- tendents. This is the scientific brancii of liie case ; on the other hand we have a great mass of testimony that I cannot stop to review. There is a vast amount of evidence in the case from practical men. In the Colla- ted Testimony appended to the American Ar-iment from pages 306 to 312 you will find the testimony of 171 practical scalers; 23 of them are masters of vessels, 30 are seamen, 80 are Indian hunters, 8 others are intelligent observers of liioso resident on the islands. Now 1 shall not read a word of their testimony. 1 refer you to it. It is all concurrent. It is nothing but a repetition of the statement that in their judgment the decrease that has taken place is owing to this destruction of females and young, and that the extermination of the seal will be (he consequence. They come to tiie exact conclusion from (heir practical point of view that the scientific men do from theirs. These witnesses are no more scientific men than those scientific men are practical sealers and the concurrence of tiieir judgment in exlraordinary. Now what is there on the other side? Among all the scientific men of evidence in this world oven including (hose in Kngland like Professor Sclator, I'fofessor Iluxloy and Professor Flower, whoso letter was road the other day ~ not in this connection but in another — whore is the man who comes to contradict the testimony of these gontlomon and to express any diireront view? Whore is the nractical evidence lo tiie contrary? What IS it that my learned friends say about this? Ho they say that you can go on killing foinalos in these increasing proportions, for you have not failed (o ol)sorvo (hat the absence of pelagic sealing has grown in respect lo the nmiiber of vessels with great rapidity — do they assert that? No. Theyatlemplloparrythisonlybysaying. '• Well, you exag- gerate it ". \'ou might as well say we exaggerate mathomalics. That wo exaggerate a demonsti'ution of geometry. It is a result that comes ma- — 2218 — tbcmalicnlly — Certainly l)y natural laws from certain premises. No- body can exaggerate if. It does not need any exaggeration. They undertake, however, to say this is not the only factor in extermina- tion. This is not all there is. You arc responsible for some of it; there is a decrease that is alarming and portentous, but it is not all our fault. It is partially yours. Now, 1 propose to examine that question; not because it is really ma- terial, but because, so far as time allows, I do not propose to leave any suggestion that my learned friends think important enough to make, and to rely upon, to be disregarded. We will meet them on their own ground on all tiicse points. Let me first, however, call your attcniion to the conclusive mathema- tics thai result from this evidence. I said a little while ago, in opening the question of proportion of females, that reflection would show, without any figures, that lliis business of killing the males ever since 1847 and sparing the females, till pelagic sealing prevented tiiem, must result in a preponderance. Now, my learned friends Iiave prepared for my use a statement, which, if I had the mathematical genius to prepare if, would require confirmation, at least; hut it has been prepared by those who are better at figures than I am, and I can only understand it. it is in reply to the calcnlalion that my learned friend Sir Charles llusscll presented based on flie Table of the .American Commissioners, — I should not say that; but on tlie diagrams of the .Vmcrican Com- missioners which are presented in connection with their lleport; and he arrives at a conclusion which certainly leads me to think that he is not so much my superior in mathematics as he is in everything else. He ar- rives at the conclusion that fill' diminution caused by pelagic sealing on the stafislics in Ibis case is inconsiderable; or figuring it out it is not large enough ever to exterminate the herd. Why (hies he arrive at that conclusion? Simply by leaving out the most important factor in bis sum. lie treats these females as individuals, and lakes no account of their pro- ductive faculty, lie does not fake into account the geometrical pro- gression from year to year, if the same mathematics were applied io the increase of the human race, we should not be here. We should long ago have perished ofT the Karth. It is the reproductive power of the female sex in hinnanity which has kept the human race in its rapid progression in number, even though the ratio of progress in humanity is, of course, from many ami obvious reasons, very much slower than the progi'cssion of many animals of a lower grade. In reply to this suggestion my learned friends have prepared some tables which are nothing new. They are simply figures which we make upon the evidence in reply to his figures; but I cannot make them un- derstood without yon have the kindness lo glance at the lleport. They introduce, as I say, nothing new. They arc only figures based on the evidence in the case, and I shall be able to point out what there is of imises. No- ilion. They 1 ex term in a- it; there is a ■ fault. It is is really ma- to leave any ;h to make, )n their own ve matiiema- , in opening low, without ce 1847 and it result in a r my use a re it, would ose who are Sir Charles imissioners, rican Coni- lort ; and he at he is not sc. He ar- scaliug on lit it is not 'rive at liiat in his sum. )!' tiieir pro- etrical pro- applied lo We should e power of in its rapid 1 humanity lower tlian )ared some h we make e them un- ort. They sed on the there is of — '22t!t — them, very brietly. They can bo compared in their rcsulls with the re- sult that my learned friend has arrived at with his (igures. .Now the assumption of lliese tables should he lirst staled, in order that Ihcy may be understood. \Vc assume that the seals jjorn in any year decrease annually at liie several rates indicated in the diagrams of tile United States' Commissioners. See the United States' Case, page 3.^3. That is from natural causes, of course; that they decrease aside from anything that men do; from natural causes they decrease; and it struck me that the ratio allotted by the Commissioners of decrease from natural causes was too large; but my opinion on that question is worthless; and tliere is no evidence, can be done. Tliey evideully undertook to make a very liberal allowance for the dcalli of the young by nalural causes; and they work out, I believe, that half of all that arc born perish the lirst year; and tiie.i in a proportionate ratio they continue to perish from merely natural causes, even if they were left alop;. Thou we assume that each breeding female has a breed- ing life of 18 years. Tliat is llie result of the best evidence there is in this case : that each breeding female gives birth annually, from and including her third year, lo one pup, and that half of these pups are females. That, I believe, is conceded. Of course, those are assumptions, but they arc the best assumptions that the evidence warrants as lo the breeding age of Iheso seals, the number of pups that they produce. Then a calculation is made in this way; and we will take Table A. Vou take 1,000 females, liy way of hypothesis you divide llicm into i classes : 3 years old, i years old, ;> years old, 6 years old; which are all breeding ages. Then if you refer to the first column of Table \, the left-hand column, the ligurcs at Ihe top give the numbers of the years from one to 18. In column one, Ibo 1 lower figures of •J50 each represent those 1,000 fur-seals of 3, i, ;> and O years of age. Now those seals will pro- duce lliat year, they are all breeders, ."jOO leniales pu|is, upon (lie assuinp- lion thai, if they produce 1. 000 young, oOO will be fomales. Vou add, Iherofore, lo Ihal 1.0(10, the lirst year, 500; and you have now I,,"i00 fe- males of whom llie .'JOO are jusi born. Xow go lo the second year, and Iho .')00 fomales, Ihal were born the year before, shrink, by nalural causes, lo 2.")0 who allaiiiod liioir second \oar, and that 2ij0 is llio second figure in Iho column. Thou Ihe 1,000 brooding seals, wilh whicli \ou begin, shrink, Iho one class lo •208, llie next lo 22;j, Iho ne\l lo L>3(), and Iho lasl lo 220. Those are the figures resulting from the ralio of decrease g.ven by the Commissioners. That number of seals, thus shrunk from the former year, produces that year ill fomales, which you will find is the figure at tlie head of the column, and Ihe niimbor of female seals has incroasod Ihal ]r.\\\ llio not iiicroaso, lo l."i8o. .\ow if you follow Ihal lablo down, iKilicing Ihal Ihe corros- |Minding figure in oacli coiunin is one slop hiwor down, VdU find what ln'coinos of Ihat original 1,000 that you started with, in the sixteenth year they are all gone; that is lo say, if not dead they are pasl Ihe brood- inylimu, and llial 1,000 with wliich you starlcd lias gradually disappeared t'rom llie iicrd, and is fjone. Vou will see wlial lite suceessive hirlli in each successive year is al'ler they get to be old enougli for li\e seals that are horn in eacli successive year to breed, and you will se(! at the head of the column under each successive! year the females that will hi; born during that year. They are carried forward with their increase after lliey gel to be three years old, and I think will) this explanation I can add nothing thai renders the tables any clearer. They are quite clear as they stand and you sec liie result in the 18 years at the end of lliat year 1,000 females have become 2,117, as a net result after deducting all that have died from natural causes either by being killed in earlier years or from outliving their usefulness and so disappearing. Now unless some question should be suggested about these tables I will turn to Table It though I should be hapi)y to try to answer any ques- tion that may be put. Now Table 1$ show s the number of females thai would have been alive in 1882 except for pelagic sealing and which woidd have a|)peared on the breetling gromidsin 188't, calculating from Table 15. This table begins with the year l^"2 and ends wilh the year 1882. That covers II years therefore. It assumes the theoretical calcululioii of the last table. It gives the catch lor each year as derived from actual figures in the evidence the tables given by the American Commissioners of the pelagic catch, and it figures out upon that basis the uel loss to the herd by the destruction of a nuniberof females which the table shows were actually taken. Now that requires a word of explanation before leaving it. We ha\e assumed there for the pur|)os(^ of this table, all the seals shown to have been taken by pelagic scaling are females. Of course, I hat might at the threshold be challenged, and it might be said : Yiiu Ilivc iiol piovcd of oviMi piclciuIiMl dial all llio si>als talars longer, lo 1891, you must take into account the deaths from natural causes of these young seals maturing .luring that period. That figure has not been made, but it would not change the resnll. On Ihe oilier hand the killings of 1890 and 1891 arc nol included which would more than balance, because if (hey are not included then the number of females would be increased rather than diminished. Now this is Table D, the last one which shows the loss in Ihe number of female seals which would be effected by 10 years of pelagic sealing based on llic supposilioii llial 20,11(1(1 l)iV('ilin;i t'eniiilcs wcro killed anmiitlly diirinf; llial period. Tills is ii liypolliolical table no! ibiiiuled on aeluai calcliinj;-, slioNNJiip; wbal woiiM 1)0 lost if 20,(1(10 breeding fcninb^s are killiid by p('lap,ie sealing' ( icli year ; yoii will see readily IVoin the table how llial is (inured oiil, and the total loss in 10 years oriemah^ seals would be .'JO! ,S10. The dill'ercncc between this table and the last is that the last is alteni|iled lo bo founded on liie aeliinl deslruclion as reported. This is based on a bypo- Ihetieal destruction of 2(1,00(1 females seals in eaeh year. I am talk- ing exclusively of female seals in Ihese tables. They take no account of anvthinj- else. It is the loss of breeding females. I should have remarked llial there is a total loss of females and a loss of breeding females the dill'erence being of course that females ai'c not breeding females till liiey are three years old, and the loss of bi'eeding females is 220,820, and the total loss of females at the end of the period is 30 1,840. Now the American C.oinmissioners do not assume lo number the herd, but they give a hypothetical herd in which there is supposed to be I ,,")00.()00 females, of which 800,000 are capable of breeding. That is a total herd of ;>,0(I0,000. It is seen, therefore, assuming Ihe PribilolT herd to correspond in numbiM-s to the Commissioners' hypothesis, that in 10 years of pelagic sealing which destroyed 20,000 breeding females a year, the number of females in the herd would be reduced by I}()l,8'i0, or over 2i percent of the whole number of females, which the breeding females would be reduced by 220,820. If you take it at :}, 000,000 as ils normal condition, and assume half of those are females, and that of liie l,"i(|(l,000 females. 800,000 are capable of breeding, and the ligures lell the conse<[uences, you see where this lands us, that 27 per cent of the breeding cows are gone in 10 years. .Now, of course, it may be said these are upon the hypothesis of Ihe Commissioners, because an exact census cannot be taken, but il is the best hypolhesis Ihat the case admits of. I do not think Ihal examining this table, in coimection with the evidence in Ihe case, it will occur to members of the Tribunal that the premises are in any respect erroneous, thai the hypotheses are not, the most just anil reasonable that the materials of the Case enable us to make; and from this source as well as from all the others we arrive at a conclusion that I confess, lo my mind, would be just as apparent before I heard a word on the subject from scientilic, from practical men, from tables, from experience else where, as il is now. Anyone who will give a moment's allention lo Ihegeomelr'ical progression of animal life — ani- mals of Ibis class I mean, or animals that are analogous lo those with which we are concerned, — must see, if he is no more of a mathematician than 1 am, wlial result lakes place. Cast your eyes back for one moment lo the growlb of Ihe population of Ibis world. The condilionsof increase are nothing like those we as- sume here. The human race is not polygamous. The number of children ■ voro killed 1-, sliowiii- by |)c!ii;;if il is ll;;iir('(l ,8K). Tho npled lo bo on ;i iiyjio- I lun talk- no account liould have il' brccdinji' il breeding ng females ! period is umber tlic osed lo be Tlial is a e PribilolV licsis, llial >• I'eniales a l()l,8i(l, or I breeding 100,01)0 as md llial oi' llie lignres cent ol' the ay be said e an exact ase admits II with the ;il that the re not the id)le us to arrive at a •enl before nen, from will give life — ani- ttitli which ician than )opiilalion )se wo as- if children — 2228 — thai am produced under ordinary circumstances is far less. The time dial elapses before the prodiiclivo period arises is much greater. \ow let a person I'cllect for a moment how long il is since the i-onlinent of America was discovered. Tiie Indians that then inhabited il arc sub- slanlially gone. .V remnant alone remains in Ihe Far West that arc fast disappearing. .Now lookat lhe(;0,000,000or 70,000,(100 01 people on that Continent, leaving Indians out. Where do they come from? Emigra- tion considerably, of course. .\11 sucii emigration in Ihe lirst place — all Ihe descendants of emigrants. Ibit what counlry has losl population in that period from whence they came? One or two — |)erhaps one, might ho named; under unhappy circumstances in a more recent period its population has diminished, but nol during that entire period. Every country in Ihe world that iOO years ago began to contribute lo the po- pulation of the Western Hemisphere its own population has largely increased. Xow suppose a herd of animals of this kind is nol touched by man at all. Why the increase would nol be indefinite : it would reach a point which would be called by naturalists its maximum. The laws of nature provide for those things. No race of animals could ever over-populate Ihe earth or reach a point where the laws by which the increase of popu- lation I'egulales itself. The President. — Maltliusianism. Mr Phelps. — Yes, the natiu-al Malthusianism. The natural opera- tion of Ihat IheorN undoubtedly; but in order for that, causes have lo intervene, provided by Providence, by whicli these animals are kept at their maximum. Il was suggested by the President, when we were all of us younger— I mean in tho early stages of this discussion, how it came to pass, if (h(! males were not reduced by artificial killing there would still be in this herd, in this class of animals — I mean not specially seals, wild animals, polygamous in their nature, how it could come lo pass, if there was no inlerferenco with male life the females would become most numerous. Now thai is a (piostion Ihat il is for naturalists to answer, or for ob- servers; but I suppose the answer lo be in Ihe Iheory of the survival of Ihe littest. I suppose when the number of males becomes too largo in such a herd of wild animals, when Ihey are nol arlilicially restrained as we have to restrain the propagation of domestic animals, there is a nuilual destruction by fighling, of which these islands are the conspicuous thea- tre, with regard lo this race of animals, and il results not in the survival of all the males, but only a part of Ihom. However, that is Iheoretical, and I do not care lo pursue it. Now, Sir, Ibis is the point to which all my observations have tended to day, and, pari of Ihom, yesterday : are we, or are we imt as a matter of fact, established by the evidence in this case drawn from manv converg- uig and independent sources, — are we entitled to say thai the continu- ance of this pelagic sealing just as it has taken place, especially in I'orini'ctidii willi llio incroaso of il, which we hiivii sh'.'wii iilsci lo hiM- slciidv, 1111(1 whicli will only liiitl ils clincK wIkmi Iho (Icslriiclioti ul' lli(> iminiiils r'i'iiscs lo I'ditlcr il |iroliliilili>, lire we nr iiri; wr not ciilillcd lo siiy Ihiil lliis liiisiii(>NS rcsiills iiccdssiii'ily ill no mm'v ilisluiil pi'i'lod in llii' cxlcrniihiilion of Iliis I'iicc orimiiiiiiis iis il hiis cvcrv where else. .Now I'eliirning low hill hus lieeii said l)\ m\ IViends on Ihe ollior side — Ihat is lo siiy, Iho iniiniif{onien( on llie islands hus nol Itoen },'oo(l liilely and Ihei'ofore Ihe [lelii^ie seiil(M' is not responsihle for all Ihe deereast^ Ihal has taken plaee in this herd ; pari ol'il is \oiir laiill. Now liol'oiN^ I look into \\w. I'liels upon whieli I shall elaini thai Ihal is a proposition thai is ahsolutely nnwarraiiled — that will no nn)ro hiNir eMuninaliiin in Ihe li^lil id' the review of thiMsliole evidence in ilMW'iisit than any of these other propositions Ihal I havelieen iilile lo demonslrale t'roni Mie ividoneoure inaecni'ide and iinronnded — suppose it to he Irne? Snppose Ihal in Ihe proseeidion of this industry h\ ii j;real nation nol waiUin;; in inlelli^onee, anxious to preserve this herd, heeaiise lliev are stron};ly inlercsh-d and liirj;oly interested in preserving il — snp|)os(> il wei'c triu! Ihal in this industry as in every oIIkm' pnrsiiit that niiin isvei' scl his hand to since the crealion, experience has shewn, us it advanciMl and j;rew tliut earlier methods were in some rcspocls didicient — Ihal Ihe tirsi ideas wcro nol always Iho best — that e.xpcM'icnco has dovidoped not only llic neeossily, bnl means of improvement. Is there an industry on Ihe lace of Ihe earlli lo which thai does nol apply? Can there he? Can any man imdi'riake lo say, — is bo san- unine enoui;h lo sav that Ihe lime will over come thai the oldest liandi- cial'l ithe mere cnltivation oI'IIk! earlli, or any other) has reached a point 111 vvhiidi ini|irovemeiit is impossible? I fancy that no man who has a common aeipiainlance with the liistorv of his race will venliiri! lo assert such a conclusion as that. Sn|tpose il is true Ihal in Unit number thai il was cslimaled niij^ht be taken from this seal-herd wilhoul harmiiifi lliom, — snjipose il was true Ihal in Ihe manner of lakiii}; lliem the besi possi- ble manner pracliciilly is shown by experience nol lo have been observ- ed and that improvements were needed, why, is there anv donbl that those will be adopted? May not the inleresl and Ihe intellipmce of the nation which, with such sedulous ciir(>, has nianiij;ed this industry during; Ihe short period historically, since l8()9vvhon they bc^iin because the lirst year after lln^ cession there was chaos on the Islands; llie machinery had not been put in force to make law operative, — the law itself perhaps bad not been fashioned and promulgated, — -is there any doubl tliat the im- provenicnts will lake place? .Vre Ihesedil'liculties thai are su}^gesl(>ddifli- ciillies thai cannot be overcome? Is it like the killing of the female seal in the water, — somelbing that cannot be helped if yon are (o kill seals there at all? Why, very far from it. Therefore, I might well dismiss this suggestion of llio accountabilily of management on Ihe Islands for a pari of this decrease with the single remark : — Granted experience has taught us better intelligence and law Isd Id Invc lion of Iho lifli'd lo siiv I'iod ill ||i(> lliorsidc — good laloly 10 (Icci'citsi' lliiif llial is iiiiii'(! Iii'iii' ill IIk; ciisc iMiioiislriilc Id Ijo I I'll 0? nation nol M! (Ii('\ arc sii|i|)os(' il iiii ever scl, vaiiccd and - Ilial, llii> «'loj)eil nol I docs nol is 1)0 saii- losl liaiKJi- licd a pniiil who lias a lo assci'l d)or llial il ninf!, tlicm, l)csl possi- cii ()i)sorv- iloiilil Ihal nco of I he ■ilry (hii'iiij; so (he lirsl liinory had !i'lia|)s had al liio iiu- iCslcddilli- !lhin{>' Ihal y Car Irom )nnlal)ilily llic sin}j:lo ce and law 222,'j will oorrcol il, (hv ymir onmi sJM.sviiijr i| is easy of cor, lium, whal has llial lo do Nvilh a cnrlain and iiicNilal.l,. means oroMcrminalion with NNJiicJi wo arc dcajiiij; in Ihiscasc? ^\|,^, i| „|,„„s cds an a|.ol..j;v r„r cany- ini; lliis cii(|iiiry aiis riirlhcr ; and it is only hccanso I am nol vNiiJi,,. h, leave anything; llial I conceive lo I,,, Nvron- Ihal I allude loil. If I lln)i|..iil il olhorwisc, wo should try to admit it candidly vvithonl an atloin|.rio answer il. Now, Nvhal are (ho poinis orcrilicismnrihemanagomcnhmlhe Islands winch arc claimed l.y mv learned Irionds to have hecn mischievous in Ihe pasl/Thcv aiT Inno. They say, yon have killed loo nianv mal.; seals ^..nr drall Ihal von set out with ol lOO.OOd is too (.real. Well, \on will '■'■nu.nii.cr Ihal Ihe Slalule anlhoriscs IheSecrolarv oniio Tivasi'.rv al aiiv linn^ lo rcslricl if il is lound Ihal Ihey are lakiii- (oo many. Vo:; ul!! reiii.mihcr Ihal niidcr Ihe Orders ol' Ihe Socrelary in IHIIO, iho miml.cr was reslri.lcddown lo :2:>,(HM); and, Ihororore, il is pcrlcdh plain Ihal, il'any such rcslriclion or any reslridion is necessary lor Iho prcservalion ..r Mils race, il will he made. The United Slates here is not slrn-diiin- lor lh(! privil(-e ori.riorexlonninatiou, because that would he quite' in Uieir power wilhoul any license at all. When we f^vt Ihe ri(;lil lo exlorminale these seals that are our own nnmediale prop..rK, win there is noi.odv Ihal co.dd inlerrere if wo vsanl Ihom cxicrminaled. Thai is an .'asv (ask lor us, an.l we eonid n.vclude everyhodv from sharin- in Ihe oxiorminalion, prollv neiiriv. Thai is nol why w(!are slrui;i.;liiii;ror Ihe preservalion. The second ohjeclioii is that in the manner ordriviii.i; Ilies(. s(;als, at limes Ihal I will allude lo prcscnlK, (hey have hcen injured; those that are nol kilk'd have hoon so injur...! as (o aH'c'l (he repr.'.duclive power .,f the rac.3 and so diminish (he hiidi ra(e hy allec(in- Iho opposilo sex from Ihal whi..|i is .-vpos...! |.i p..|ai;i.' s.-aliiij;-. ■Nnw it Ihal is Iru.. il d.j.!s nol l.,uch the — iiliiinsi, roiiiii'cliMl willi seal life wliicli \si! iii'(' coiik'iitliii}; for, cxci'pl lliis. Now, 11^ III llii> iiiiiiiIpci', my Irit-iuls liiivc tiiKlcuvorod lo show llial llie Aiiu'iicaii aMT.ij:!' on (lie I'liltilnl' Islaiuls, of lttlt,(l()ll, was a ^'ival dt-al lai';;i'i' lliaii llii' lliissiaii aiillioiitics liail ili'ciiicd salr. Well, lo lii'f;iii svilh, wlial was it? Wluil conslilulos the lUissiaiis a liarlii'iilar aiillioriU? Tlii' ruftTOiici! lo (lie averaj;o which lUissia, in llie oai'K iicriod, hi'l'oro Ihny bof^aii lo discriiiiiiiati; wlipii llicy wcro killing ill ail t'\l('iiiiiiialinj,' 'vay — llial it lo say killing willioiil any ri'lVrciici! lo whclhor Ihcy wore males or IVmales - - does not prove nnylhinj;. II was not until IM'i", as the Hrilish Comm.ssioners admit, lliat Hie jiresent sys- tem oi'diseiiminalion was Ix^^uii. It has hueii followed ever since. Now al'ler thai, helween IH,")() and IHCiT it will he Ibiiiid IVoni the evi- dence Ihal the mimlier ol' skins wiiich lhe\ looik, depeiulcd on llie mar- kets oC the world, (Jl' course they could nol overstock IIk; market vvithoul depreeialin^' the n'liiriis, iiisteadol' iiicreasiiif; them, iiaiicroli, let mc say lirsl. Ihe historian thai is referred to in the IJrilish Case so frequently, — I read from the fooliiole lo the United Stales Counter Case page 73 — says : III Is.'il, .10,111111 comIiI lie lulled annually at SI. I'anI Island alone, and in I.SOI as many as Tll.dilO. willimit I'eai- id' exhaaslinj,' llic siipidy. The lijfiires from ISCiO lo IH()7,^i\eii in Ihe iiritish Case, are shewn in the United Stales Comiler (Jasc al pa^es 71 to 71!, to he incorrect. Now what arc they? They say for !8()l, 18(12, 18(53, 18(l't, I8();J, 180(1, 18(17, — so many : the last live hciii}; estimates — round numhers, and as to 'i of lliem an interro^alion mark is put ai;ainst llieiii hy the Commis- sioners, wiiieli indicates Ihal lliey are open lo (piestion — llicy are ralhcr siii;i;ested. Then in Sections 777 to 77'.) of the Kritish Commissioners Meporl, you see how ||ics(\ liiiiires are reactc To ^el lliese li^ures of 18(11, Iheytook Klliolt's totals for Ihe years \i 12 lo 18(12 and snhslraclcd llancroiVs totals from 1812 lo 18(11. anii Ihe dill'erencc they call the lliiurcs of 18(11. Well, now, what does Cllioll himself say ahoul those totals of his? Al pai;(! Id."! of the ('.ensiis lleport he says : I iiowapiii'nd a hriclbat sij;nilieaiil cxliacll'iiiin'lceliiiiiieiiiiiv — si}.'nilliaiil sini- lily lieeause it deinonslrales llial all Kiissiaii IcslliinMiy. nllier lliaii VeiiiaiuiiiDv's, \s iillrr/ii srif ntiilradlihiri/ In i'ei;aril' lo llie iiuiiilier iil' seals laUeii IVoiu Hie I'ri- liylol' Islands, reejliliiieiiiiiv lirsl i;ivos a serii'S ol' (aides wliicli lie deelares are a Inie liaiisci'ipl and exiiiliil ol' llie skins sidd mil ol'Alaska liy (lie Kussiaii-Aniei icaii (^iiii|iaiiy. The la(es( table iireseiiled, and ii(i lo llie dale of Ids wriliiig, ISll'2, shows Ihat 37'J, SOI Ini-sual sldiis w'cro lakeii IVoiii Ihu Priliilol' Islands, via Silka, lo the Kussian markcds of llio world, in the years I81'2-I.S()'2, inclusive; or jfiviii;;- anuverafro ciilcli id' I.S,iit{ per annum (p. ^21). Then I'lirllieron aslie wrilus(iiearly lino liiiiidn'd paj;cs), lie sliillififx /lis ivrfinl alinri' i/iin/i'il hy iisiiij;' Ihe laii,miaf.'(! and li.uiues as hillnws : ■' In earlier limes nioro were lakeii (liaii in (lie laler ; a( piescnl (lSli-|i (line are (akeii rrmii (he i>laiid nC S(. I'aiil 70,111)11 annually wi(linu( dinii- nishini;- (he niiinher fur In (hit killiiip;". I'lirdier ninniieiil is uiinen'ssary upon Iliis aiillinr, w lin (lius wrid'S a lii>(niy nC Ihe ilidii:;s nC llii^ llnsslau-.Ainei'ieaii t'.nnipaiiy. The bulloui, therefore, of the Urilirih Commissioners compulation de- cxci'pl lliis. ll)N\ lllill lIlL' 11 ^;iviit (loiil 3 Itiissiiiiisii issia, ill llio NMM'(« killiiif; ri'l'oroiii'o lo iig. II was |tresoiil, sys- siiicL'. '0111 llu- uvi- iii the innr- llio iiiarkut naiKMofl, isli Caso so oiiiilor Case ih) in 1 80 1 as , arc shewn in correct. usr),'), I HOC), crs, and as le Coininis- are rather iniissioners ' lif;iires of siibsd'aclcd cy call the ihoiil those iiiliciuil sini- I'liiaiiiiiiov's, (ini till' I'ri- I'cliircs ai'i^ a an-Aniciicaii I'itiiit;-, lHtt-1, Is, via Sitka, c; or fjivin^' riles (nearly nif^na^'e and ■; at prcscnl illuiul (liiiii- iryu|iiin Iliis Ciini])any. Illation (le- - 2437 — rived Irom Mr I'lliotI, falls out iipon liie testimony of Mr Kllioll, who says tlialitis not in the lea>l ivliaide. The Inilcd Slates show liial the iiiiin- licr of seals killed in Ihal ),'.u: JMtll, was i7.<»i(). aii.l in proof „f Ihis lliey have |inhlislier IVoin Ihe Chief Mana-er (.f lln^ llnssian Ame- rican Colonies to Ihe linssiaii American Company, written at Sitka, (letohcr li, 18(11, conlainiiif; a lleporl upon Ihe operaliinis of the Com- pany for Ihal year. The refeivn,.,' for Ihal is the United Stales Connler Case, page lUo. One would suppose Ihal Ihal was tolerable evidence of the numher killed hy that Company, lie says — this is an extract of course : In Iho coarse of (liis year — that is IHtil ; (he date of Ihe letter is October I it h In (lie ennrse „r Ihis year iV.HtO seal skins liave lieen laken from tlio islands of SI Paul and SI Ceorp', of wliieii nninln'r -JCni;! sailed, :;,()(|(| bachelors, dried and -i,;,!)!! -revs liave lo hi' sent lo New Vnrk; and I-.', Dim drieil skins will now be sent by Ihe ship Czurilzn lo Cronsladl The iJritish Commissioners, in this extraordinary melhod of com:'), a- tion, make the tigurcs for that year 2\)Xm. The Manager of Ihe (.om- pany informs us th'i' '! :.s iJ.UiO. Sir Charles Russell. — One is shipped from the island, and the other may be kil. 1 on the island. The two figures are not in( .nsistenl. Mr Phelps. — \Vh\ not? lie describes wlial bad become of all these - wluM-e they are fill sent. They are all sent to market. Sir Charles Russell. — Von have boon speaking yourself of not glutting Ihe market. Mr Phelps. — Tliey are all sent |o market. They are not only killed, bnl sent to market; and they only shew the fallacy of ligures that are arrived at by taking one unreliable and ui.provod sum, and siiblracling i( from another unreliable and unproved sum and taking the (lilVcronce as the basis. .Now at Section 77'.t of Ihe Uritisli Commissioners Heporf is Iheanlhor- ily for the years I,SC.l> |o 18(17. Tlial is their tigures. Most of tliem they have marked with an iiilcrio-alion point, as I said before. Tliey by no means undertake lo vouch them — I am not to be inferred as saying Ihal they misrcprcsenl this, bcause they say themselves thai those figures both inclusive, have been tilled hypotiietically by KlliotI : — Tlie figures I'or Ihc years are Ihcrel'oie far from satisl'aelory. iNow those figures of course disappear, because in the first place the Commissioners say themselves that they are iinsatisfaclory : they appear, in the next place, lo be based upon a //i/pol/try't, and the man who invents the hypolhosis, Klliolt, says they are unreliable. They dis- appear into Ihe air. Now we have put translations and facsimiles of the official Corrcspon- 281 2228 — (lence ol" the American Company consislinp; of Heporls I'rom (lie witnesses, and orders to (lie '.^mafjers, in the Connler Case at pages 195 to 499, and al paf^e 429. Now I will read llie lleporl for IH()2 — we have seen wlial ISIil was. Tiiis is an extract. It is the Report of the Chief Manager at Sitka, lie says : In spile Dl'tliu grcal slauBliler of seals on SI. I'aul and SI. (it'oi).'c' lliey arc every year occupyiii),' more space with llioir rookeries ; and I thorel'ore pcrniiltod lln^ man- ager to lalifi 75 000 sivins on (lie former island, instead ol .MIOOO; and on the latter 5 000, an inercaso of iOOO. Seeing now, however, lliat the demand for sealskins for New York does nol go beyond iJOOOO, I will alter this arrangonienl, and instrurt him to prepare -J.'iOOO sailed sealskins and -20 000 dried on SI. I'anl and nol lo lake nioio llian ;i,000 on SI. •', .ge, as heretofore. The sealskins remaining over cannot spoil, as they arc thoronghly sailed. Now whal heeomes, I should like to know, of the suggestion that in liiese years the Itiissiaus found so iiiaiix seals proper lo Ix; taken ahovc those Ihiit the United Slates look. This is ISdl and 18(12. Then what are the records for the f(dlowing yi'ars? In IS(»I} it was 7(1000. I refer (o the Uniled Slates Connter Case pages lO."), 190, 197 and 199. They are taken from Hie itriginal tellers of lln^ managers of these Companies which are there given. I read in this ahhreviated way to save time, and lo present results instead of wading through language. You will find the letters there. IS()3 : 70,000 (11. S. Counter Case, p. lo;i) IStii : 70,000 ( — — — p. 1 !••')) 1865 : ;i;i,ooo ( — — — p. 107) isiifi : ;i:i,o(io t — — — p. 107) ISti7 : 7ii,000 ( — — — p, 190) Now the IJritish Commissioners suggest that the Hussians were honest enough, as lhe\ were ahout to cede this to the I'nited Slates, lo take a large iiumher of seals the last year iiotwilhslanding thai it might he a detrinieiit lo the islands. That is nol a very res|)eclful suggestion lo a (iovernmeiit like Hussia, and certainly is nol warranted hy any evidence; but in the Lulled Slates Counter Case page 199, N" I"), that that is not the cause of the increase, is shewn. Then the Itussian average in the late years of their control, (after they began Id discriminate so that the herd was in a normal condition), reached 70000 skins that were taken ; and it a|)|)ears that more could have been, and would have been taken, except that they were kept down by the exigencies of the market, want of demand. Now in 18(18, in this chads thai loid* place in this absence of law, there were 210,000 seals killed. 'I i.:'' is shewn by Mr Morgan's teslimony in the I niled Slates Case, .Appendix Volume II, page (Wl. And in 1809, the follov ing year, after the government bad gotten hold of Iheir pro|)erly and began to control it, the amount was 8."), 000. The number of seals killed on the I'ribilof Islands from 1870 to 1889 for all purposes, (includ- ing those pups killed for natives' food and the few seals that died during — 2229 — the drives) is given in llic United States Counter Case, pages i23 to i28; and llic total number is 1,977,337, being an annual average of 98,837. That is what we took from the island before the take was restricted by orders of the Secretary of Stale or under the operation of the successive arrangement of the modm vwendi. Now there is what the evidence shews about this. Then it is said that tiiere were warnings to the United Slati's Govern- ment that the killing of 100,000 seals annually was too great — that our officials, some of them, made known to tlie Government that too many male seals were being killed; and they quote haniel Webster, an excel- lent witness properly relied on by bolli sides, who says formerly there would be an average of 38 cows to I bull — now they will not average lii. Well, let us see from Mr Webster's aftidavil — his observation was very large — wiial lie does say about il. Vou may lake a casual expres- sion or a line without its context and gel a very erroneous ini|)ression. The reference to lliis in pagi; 179 of Ihe 2nd I nited States .Vppendix. Wliat I am reading is a quotation. lie says : — Tlicrc was iimiT wliilo 1 li:ivo boon upon lliu islands any scarcity ol' vifroroiis bulls, I'lci'n always bnin^' a sufllciont numbnr lo furlilize all tlio cows comint; lo the islands. It was always borrio in mind by lliosu on the islands that a sut'licicnl number of nialos mnst bi; prusorved lui' brccdin;; imiposi.'s... Thi' season of 181)1 showed thai niab' seals had ceilainly been in sufdeienl number the year before, because Ihe pui)s on Ihe rookeries were as many as should be for tin; number of cows landing!... Tlim, Iud, lln're was n surplus of riipiraus hulls in 1 89 I irlin could obUiin no cows. Now that is Mr Webster's evidence. Then they cite Captain Bryant. The Mrilish Commissioners quote Captain Hryant as saying this : II is very remarkable how full the Ifri- lisli Commissioners Iteporl is, of references to wlial is said, often, by unknown MUHi; to letters, oflen, the writer of wliieli is not given ; lo let- ters or lo persons as in this case where Ihe author is given ; the substance as understood by the Commissioners willionl any context — the Iteporl is full of that sort of evidence, which every one who has ever had any deal- ing with evidence knows is the most likely, of everything in Ihe world, to bo mistaken. Why, it is hrar.un/, excludes, as evidence, under Ihe Common Law. Why? Siniph becr.use human experience shews that you cannot gel liearsav — liiat is the dil'liculty. Vou can gel what is suid lo be hearsay, but the monieul you undertake lo resort lo hearsay evi- dence, you an; uUerly at sea. .Mr foster suggests that I am wrong in this quotation, and I ;,'ii vei\ happv lo niaki: the correclion. In this in- stance this is quoted from Captain llrvanl's stalement, — I was wrong as far as this is concerned. The context, however, shews that when you get at the context thai that is not what Captain Hryant means — that is not what he says, lie recommends in October IH7.') that for two years oidy. Sir Charles Russell. - Would yon kindly give the reference? Mr Phelps. — it is our House Executive Document, No 83, 44th Con- gress, page 178. — ■i-l-AO — Sir Charles Russell. — Wlierc' is il ciled ? Mr Phelps. — Al piigo Gil of llie Counter (".aso ymi will liml il. This is iiol releiTcd to by I he British Coniuiissioiicrs. C.iiplaiii Itryaiil rocoiu- ineiids, in October 187,), lliat I'or two years only tlie killing he reduced to S,'),000. This is omitted from the British Commissioners Meport. Then in his sworn testimony l)eforc a ConjjrcssionalCommiltee in the year 1876, his views on this subject arc hrou};ht out, and this is cited in the United States i.ounler Case paf;c 71. This is wliat he says : In the season of ISiiS. before the proliibitnry law was i)assed anil enforccil, numerous parties sealed on the Islands al will and look about two hundred and fifty thousand seals. 'I'hey Uilled mostly :ill llie luoducl of l8()()-'()7. In making our calculations for breeding' seals we did not lake that loss into consideration, so that in 1S7'2-'7H, when the crop of IStiti-'ti" would have matured, we were a little short. These seals had been killed. Tor Ihal reason, to render the matter doubly sure, I recommended to Ihe Secretary a diminution of 15,000 seals for the two years ensuing. I do not, however, wish to he nnderstood as sayiiif; that Ihe seals are all deereasinir — Ihal the proportionate number of male seals of Ihe proper age to lake is decreasing. U. The females are increasing? \. Yes, Sir; and conse(|uenlly Ihi' number of pups produced annually. (J. 11 looks, then, as if the males ought also to increase? A. 1 think that number of 100,000 was a little more than ought to have been begun with. I think if we had begun at S.'i.OOO there would have been no neces- sity for diminishing. On Ihe other hand, 1 lliiuk that within two years from now it could be iiictrnsril. iNow il appears thai all that Mr Hryant meant (and this is his expla- nation to the Coinniiltee, not his evidence in this case), was this — he meant to say that Ihe year IHliH when tHil,(M)0 had been killed had so I'educed the lierd that ho thinks il would luive been safer to have begun al 8.'i,00(l instead of to begin at 100,01111; bul thai in Iwo years then il could have gone to the larger figure. And in seclioii 818 of Ihe liritish Commissioners Heporl. (pioling, they say : HryanI slates that this year ^IS77) there was evideni increase in the number of breeding males. He eslimales that Ihere were about !,SO0,()OO breeding seals on the islands, as against l,:!00,000 in I Still, Now Mr Klliotl, who was on the islands from IH72 to I87() makes no reference to Ihe gap in certain classes of males, whicli Caplain Mryant alone appears to have noticed. The Hrilish Commissioners in paragraph 822 of their Hcport say tiiat KUiolt in Ihesame Iteport — thai is the Cen- sus Iteporl of I8HI| — says thai the breeding rookeries have been gra- dually increasing since I8.')7 Sir Charles Russell. — What year is that in? Mr Phelps. — Klliotfs Census Iteporl of 1881. Sir Charles Russell. — Yoa are passing 1872, 1873 and 1871 ? Mr Phelps. — Yes. Sir Charles Russell. — Very well. General Poster. And I87(». Mr Phelps. — I have to pursue this subject a little further, Sir, l)eforc — -i-i-.w — I liiivo (lone wilh this lopic. I sluill not bo long upon it, but I am so much lalif-uod, and llic hourot adjouniniLMil has arrived, that I shall ask to be allowed lo defer my (uilher observations (ill lo-niorrow. 1 may say 1 am very confident that I shall finish all the observations I have lo trouble you wilh, to-morrow. |The Tribunal there upon adjourned till Friday, the 7lh of Julv 1893, at 11 30 a. m.] FIFTY-SECOND DAY. JULY 7", 1893. Sir Charles Russell. — IJcloi-e my learned friciui rcsiimos !iis argii- mcnl, Sir, I want lo make a correclioii in point ol' fact. You will recol- lect a discussion that occurred some days ago (1 think it was also referred lo during the argument of my learned friend) ahout the ma[) No OS in the schedule of maps and described as (he " Map of 1822 with additions to 1823 ", — that was stated by someone on our side originally, and I be- lieve I rejieated the statement, that it came from the Hritisii Museum. Well, that turns out to be inaccurrate. It is a map in Ihe possession of the Koreign Office in London and is here now, and 1 produce it lo my learned friends. It is a mailer of no importance ; but we wish lo be cor- rect in our statements. The President. — II is the Arrowsmith map? Sir Charles Russell. — Vcs: it is described here as, " by Arrowsmith, llydrographer lo His Majesty, 1822", and in print underneath, " Addi- tions to 1823 ". There the matter ends. The President. — They are printed or engraved additions? Sir Charles Russell. — Yes; printed or engraved additions. Tliere- forc, sho"'ng that Ihougli published originally in 1822, there was a second edition in 1823. The President. — We shall he pleased lo see the map. Sir Charles Russell. — Certainly. This is one side of it, but it is the important side. You will see " IJchring Sea " is not marked. Now, you will recollect thai yesterday my learned friend produced and dwelt for some time upon a certain Table of figures, working out or |trofessing lo work out certain malhenialical results. You will recoiled thai Table of figures which was handed in, I ought lo tell the Tribunal that my learned friends did not furnish us with copies of lliat document beforehand : and my reason for mentioning that fact is that, if they had, we should have been prepared by this lime lo otVer certain criticisms lo which we think it is open. It has been examined by persons who arc more competent Ihan I profess lo be, because I do not, any more Ihan iny learned friend, profess lo ln\ a malhemalician ; we conceive it is based on false assumptions; hul, even on those assumptions, it is not worked out correctly. .\nd, therefore, we claim the right respectfully lo put in black and while, as my learned friends havi! done, a criticism on Ibis Table. The Tribunal \Nill llien judge what wciglil is lo be allachcd h> Ihe original document, as well as to llic criticisms upon it. The President. — You mean the calculation. This was no now docu- ment, but onlv a calculation. js Ilis argu- 11 will retol- tlso refcrriid No 98 in liic iiddil.ions to y, iintl I be- sli Museum, ossession of ICO il lo my ill lo be cor- Urowsniilli, illi, •' Addi- ,s? IIS. Tliere- vas a second but il is llie id produced rkiiig oul or vill rocollficl lie Tribunal it dociinicnl if (bey bad, ciilicisnis lo JUS who arc ' more than e it is based not worked ly lo put in ism on lliis allaciied to new docu- Sir Charles Russell. — And a calculation, as wo say, which is inac- curate. The President. — That is sim|)ly a matter of arithmetic. Senator Morgan. —And il only refers lo matters llial are in Ihe Case and Counter Case. Sir Charles Russell. — We deal with the document that they have banded in and jioint oul, Sir, the errors tliat we conceive are to be found in il. The President. — Thoic can be no objection to any error being rec- tiliod, I should think. Sir Charles Russell. — Of course, wo should propose lo hand to my learned friends a copy of whatever figures or criticisms we put down be- fore handing il in lo you. Now, only one other thing ; my learned friend said yesterday llial I bad, in my criticism which I addressed upon the (igures, lost sight of the geometrical |)rogrossion llial would apply to the consideration of this question. I am not much concerned to defend myself; but I want to point out that I was dealing with the question of whether pelagic sealing could have occasioned the groat decrease said to have been manifested in 1884; and, for Ihat purpose, il was not necessary to consider the question of geoniotrical iiicroaso, because Iboso animals do not begin bearing iiiilil liioy are three y.mrs of ago. That is all I meant, and before the s'^years, before 1884, liio amount of pelagic sealing was almost ?»7. The President. — There is no question of the propriety of bringing in the goomclrical progression as Mr Phelps did. Sir Charles Russell. — There are two sides of that account. Sir — thai is a criticism - only one of which has boon looked at by my learned friend — Ihere is a debit and a credit side. The President. — As lo the paper you propose to band in after you have been in communication with your friends on the other side we will lake il and see wlial il is and reserve to ourselves the right of deter- mining what use is to bo made of it. Sir Charles Russell. — Corlainly. The President. — i\ow, Mr IMiolps, will you please lo resume your aigumonl and continue after your own jilan, and we shall be pleased to bear you. Mr Phe ,. - iNow, Sir, in respect of the map which my learned friend has properly produced, since it has come into their possession I have only lo repeal the oiisorvallon I made before and which was substantially made by Sir Iticliard Webster, that this map, from its date, could not have boon in Ihe possession of the negotiators of Ihe American Treaty and llial il is oxiromely improbable llial it should have been in the posses- sion of (he Itritish negotiators. With regard lo the labio of (igures submilted veslerday to which mv learned friend refers, I have nothing furlher to say. The documenl will vindicate itself upon examination. If it d„es nol vindicale itself upon — 2'23t — (^xiiminulion, il would ho quite impossil)lo to set it up, iiiul I liiivo no fear oC ;uiy criticism liiat it will bo in the power of iiny one upon llio facts ol this ciiso to make. As to tlio other point that my learned friend refers to. I do not not know that I quite com|)rehond wiiut he moans to say. if he only moans to say that if the females that were killed in the water were unproductive females who never could have any youn;; I quite concur with him that the ravajjes of pelagic soalinf; would llieu become slow and that it would be a question which lliis case has not presenteil. We have not allcmpted that — il wouhl be ultimalely dangerous. lUil the objection to it on economical grounds, aside from any question of humanity is that every one, that every female that is killed is not only Ihe probable immediate mother of young, but Ihe future mother of young to an extent only bounded by the age of the animal. Now I return, Sir, to the subjects I was considering yesterday at (ho lime (if the adjournment, and to which 1 am afraid I am giving more time than il juslilies, because I think il is all sui'liciently answered by the sug- gestion that I have already made, (hat even if il were found to be true that lo some extent on the islands there had been a miscalculation, over- driving, or anything else which experience shows was not advisable, it is to be presumed, and it is perfectly certain that that woidd be corrected, as it is quite in liie power of the (iovernuKMil to correcl, and that does not at all enter one way or the other into the question of the consequences of pelagic scaling which are quite independent. It simply suggests if it is true, though wo have taken the pains lo show it is not true, that the conduct of the American aulhorilies has helped towards the decrease that now exists, and is conceded to exist. I had considered yesterday llie tirsl proposition Ihat is made Ihat too many seals have been killed, and 1 was passing over the evidence as fast as I could on the subject of this decrease, and of the warnings that are said to have been given lo the American tiovornmenl by its own agents on this subject, hesuming tliat I refer to Captain tlryanl, the first witness called on Ihe other side, and l»r Mc Intyre is another witness relied upon, and when you examined his testimony you tind out as in respect lo Ihi-i, Ihal il shows no such Ihing. l»r Mc Intyre is ciled by Ihe IJrilish (Commis- sioners lie was the superintendent, upon the Islands, and ho savs the number of seals have decreased since 1882. Well, all Ihe evidence in Ihe C-ase is to Ihe contrary of that. II was veiy nuich later. It was as lale as 188',). In 1H8I and 1885 there was a slight decrease bul a signi- licant decrease I am talking of, thai would attract any attention, was niu(di later llian that. Now, in support of that, |)assages arc ciled from his Congressional Heport in 1889, entitled " Kur-seal lisheries " and the moment the lan- guage is read it will be seen that Dr iMc Intyre does not mean any such thing as is ascribed to him. He is referred lo section 830 of the IW'ilish liavo no fear I lie fiicts oJ Rnns lo say. ill llie Wilier iiiiiji; I qiiile lien become t presented. erous. Bui queslion of is not only ler of yoiinp- orday al Iho g more lime l)y the siig- I lo be true alion, over- visal)le, it is e correclcd, id thai does 5iisef|iienceH iiggests if it ■lie, thai the lie decrease d yesterday been killed, B subject of piveii lo llie Hesiimiiif; I llie oilier and wlieii lliis thai il ill Conimis- f! says the evidence in It was as hill a signi- mlion, was nf;ressional 3iit the lan- II any such theHrilish Commissioners' Report, and he says at page ilfi of llie Congressional lie- port of 1880. Vruin IS7() lo 1SS2 tliun; was .i (■nnsliiiiily incroasin;;' miiiihcr liofoiv (Ik- h,.. 'in- ning of tho annual inarau.ling, and ih,, incroasi' was appairnl cacl, y,.;ir. Tli,. boundaries oC tli(. rookuncs wciv Ijcinj;- conslanlly I'vlcndrd. Tlif lan.'.'s tlirou-li the rookiM'ios woiv in many casus cnniph-tidy tdosud hfloic ISS-j. Thuio was m, qiiostion al llial (inic as lu llii; incicasc, hut since I.SS-.> Ihe lanes thmnj;h lh,i idok- ei'ics liave aKain ojicncd ami Ki'own wider IVom year to year. During llio last two years bachelor seals pass througb tbesu lanes as they did not rorinerly. He was absent from the Island, as is shown in the Iniled Shilcs Case Appendix, in 1883, 1881 and I88:i. He knew notliin- aboiil il and could have known nolhing about it and does not profess lo have known any- thing about il. When he says sine 1882 ho docs not mean lo say beginning Nvitli 1882. lie is NNriling in I881>. Then lie quotes another quotation from Dr Mc Intyre's tesliinony found in the Appendi.v to the United States Argument page 293, what we call the Collation. 1 was, lliereroro, always alert In see Ihal a due proportion of breed in- iiiabis of servic(.'able age was allowed (o return to tlio rooke-ries. Tliis was a compara- tively easy (ask prior to ISS-i but il bei'auic Irom year to year mon^ dillienlly as (be seals decreased. .\o very exiilicil orders wi're given on this point (ill JSSS. There is the same observation. Now in Ihiiaflidavitof l)r .Mc lulyrein Ihe 2nd volume of Ihe I'uiled States Appendi.v, page i-j, he uses this language, and this in really his judgment on lliesubjecl : That from the year ISSO tberu was an expansion ol' (he areas of the breeding grounds and llial iu Ihe year ISS-J Ihoy were as large as al any time during my ac(piain(anee with Ibem; llial during Ihe three years Cullowing IS8-i, namely, hSS:!, I8S1, ISHJi, I was not upon thi! Islands ; that upon my return lo (he Islands in ISSii', 1 noticed a shrinkage in the breeding areas hut am unable (oindicale(liey(!ar ol Ihe l)eriod ol' my absence in which (he derri'ase orhreediii.i; seals began. Now these are llie only witnesses on the Island before 1880 who are relied upon by the Itrilish rioxcruiiieiit lo sustain lliis. The President. — Is that the same witness, llr .Ale liilyrc. \ou were reading from in Ihe liritish Coniuiissioners lieports. Mr Phelps. — Ves, i witness of uniiiicsliouahle aiilhorilv. .Ml 1 desire to Hud out is, what he means lo say. In ISilO, tiic Treasury .V-ents on these Islands wore Air (iolV, .Mr Netllelon, .Mr Lavender and .Mr Mur- ray. They were new men, none of lliem having been there before I88'.l, and it was at that lime that .Mr Klliott apjiears on the scene. Now passing .Mr Klliolt for the moment, see what the others say. .Mr .Muirax, in his Oflicial Heport cited in the Hritish .\ppendix, Vol. 3, page IU. expresses Ihe opinion llial Ihe seals were diminishing. That is in i8',)(), because ol lilt! killiii^oll'of male seals whereiiy none were left for useonlhe breed- ing grounds. In Ihe same Iteport, he expresses the further opinion thai Ihe seals had been steadily decreasing since 1880. Of course, I his could ■Mi - -i-yMi — not III' liasi'il on iiii\ |i(>i'Siiiial kiinwli-il^c al all; lull in IS'.I'J, willi lar^iT (•\|iorit'iir(', Mr Miiri'ay Icslilics uiiilcr nalli in lliis.- words : Diiriii}; my ohscrvalinns in ISIIO I wiis Iril to iM^licvi' lliiil llii! Uimtimsd was piirl- l,v line In ||u> lack of hulls mi llic lii'iM>illiiir I'liiikc'i'ics, anil I so ii'iiorli'il lo Apiiil lioll'. \\\' shall S('(^ [irclly soon how In? was h-il In hclii'vi- and hy whom : liiil al'li'i' llioroiinliiy iiivi'slii;aliii,i;' llic siiliji'd IIh' iicnI yi'iir liy ilaily visilslo llic lii'i'niiiif,' t:r(iiuiils of till' several rooki'iii's, wlicic I saw iicniiIv cvei-y cow willi a |pii|i liy her side anil liiiiidii'ds ol' viLToidiis liiills willioiil any cows, 1 caine lo llie coneliisioii Ihal there was im Iriilli in the liieory, llial il was I he cow thai was scarce and steadily ducreasiiii;. Thai was Mr I'lllioll, who caim^ lliere willi Ihii /iirs/iifr of hciiif; an aii- Ihorily on Ihal snhit'cl ; who was scnl llicrc hy Hie (io\ornnii>nl ; who had IbrnuM'ly visiird llie Islands and wrillen onjllie snlijeet, Ihal |inl il inio Ihc head leiii|toi'aril\ of Mr Murray and oik^ or Iwo olhors Ihal lliis llicory III' st'l n|i, and we shall see why |iivlly soon, and il shows, I may remark in |iassiii^, Ihal Iheri! is ahiimlai'l iirool' of Hie iiiaeenraey ol' Mr i'lllioll's olisi'i'Nalions hceanse Mr Mnrray loiind on lln- hrcoding-fiTonmls Ihc ull'- sprin^' ol'lhe various animals Ihal .Mr Kllioll lamenis with miicli I'licloric wore vanlinj;, Mr Nclllchni visiled Ihc Islands lorllie lirsl lime, one ol' Ihese (H'lieials, in ISH Ti) : Duriiii; my stay nn IIh' islands I liaxc ncvei' >ccii a lime liiniiiu Ihc hieeiliiiK sea-ioTi wlirii Ilicre iia^ iiol liccii a iiimdicr of laiye, vii;nrniis hulls, ymni^- Imll-; liaimiiii; alioiil llic honler^ ol llic lookeric^ walcliiiiu loi' an oppiirhiMily lo i;cl a |io- silioii of their own. 'I'lien Mr Lavender is refercd lo, another of these I'eecnl Ajionls; and he iindoiihledK was under the inlliieiiee of .Mr I'llliolls'aelivity . Me says : The writer was surprised when he lirsl visited Hie rookeries to tiiid no yoiini; hull seals upon them; -- this looked strangle to him. and he liei;aii lo look up llie eaMsi\ and il occMired lo him Ihal the constant driviiij;- olyoimii males and Ihu kill- iiii; ol'all the i!, :l, 1- and ;i years old. — what in Ihe world he means hy Ihal you can jndj;!' as well as lean; that is to say, \on cannot jndj;e at all. MrdoU'wt; shall see al'lorwards. .Now, I lia\c nolyet iiientioued Mr Kllioll; and cNcepl so far its Mr l';i- lioll's Iteporl is (o he relied upon there is ahsolideiy no evidence (and we shall ciloa ^real deal of evidence to the contrarvi Ihal lliere was no dimi iinlion of the sort he ninlertaki's to dcscrihe on lliose Islands which eoiild have had lo ilo willi Ilie decrease of the hirlli-rale. arj;(T Nowjnl ,„.. rorn.. In lliis mnllor oldnvin-,,,..! I have slill |„ ,,os(,„„„. "'" '•-""^"l''''"l""i of ll„- only wil,„.ss IJnil , jy supporls, Mr KJIioirs ll..>ory al.s..!nl,.|y inv,.,,!,.,! |,^ |,i,„s,.|r, - ....ImkIy ,u'r l„.,ml ol' ||,a|. Im- ,;■"•. '""^ "Oil"!!.-.-!!) lor il, ,.x,..|,| „ ,,„ssaKo Innn on,, of Ihcs,. tMss,,.,„ wrihTs. NvhiH,, as I shall show, is mislranslal..! an.l iva.ls rxa.l- ly Mm oIImt Nsay. Thmvan. hNo|,assaj;vs in Mr KlliolCsl;,.,,,,,! Iransjal- "*' ''■'"" "'" ""^*^''"'- "'"" i" '"•"' <'ril'">" i i-oars no( rnvn-h (lial Ih^v '"'''•"■'■'*• "^lylranslal...llM.ni.al Hi... s,.„s,. ..niio |.assajco IraMsJal,.,! is oxacliy Ih,. o|,|,osih. of Ihal which is j.iv..n as his Iraosialio,,. Th.. h - mg f;Tom..ls a.v siliiah..!, as appears, al a dislarico of I I Ujn 2 I •> niilrs ■ III'' i-v.Tap. .lislann. is ahoni, I l/J niih-s ; ||„. ||„oK..ry Charls i„ (h,^ l'"il-l Shilos- „,ap show Ihis. IIHor.. Ih. p..|at;i.- sralh,;, ohlai,,...! any «l>m'M,s,oMS. Il„. Nillahh. seals w.ro on Ih. hauiin;; n,,„„„|s Ihal is lo smv males troni 2 lo ■; yars ola;;.'. - Ihose males Ihal MrLas ler appears l»y Ins slahMuenl, lo have Ihon^^ht should not have heei, Kilie.l lie ,|,„.s >'<•' 'HI "s whal yon eoul.l kill if yon .1., nol kill those, if von killed any -Ihose seals were ahan.lone.l: an.l Ihe ..yi.jen..- simws I'hal l.-ss Ihan a iiv..ra-..ol 20 per.eni orih.'se driven np wor,. Inrn..,l ha.di. Mr Kllioirs '"•"I'N IS Ihal Ihe nnnda-rs w,.re injnr.Ml hy jlhis r.Mlrivinf; an. inj; allow.Mllo^ohaek. Thai is ll„. poinlj n..w .•on... lo. I'P I" IWIO Ih.'re was no r.-drivinj; a here is n..l a wor.l of evi- 'l<-"<'<' I" sln.w Iher.. is. I say n.,no hnl a sn>all per.rnlap. in Ih.. driv.-s ^^'";" '•'" "l-Midan,., of seals w.,nl.l f,o np, an.l so.ne n.if;hl ,.ome haek .■•f^.Mn, hnl .i.)l ,n snfliei.M.I nnnih.'r I.) h,. approciable in a .Irive ..f Ihis Imii'I- II IS sai.l (hey w.;r.. Inrn.-.l ha. k and lakin- Ihe larpssl .•..nslrne- '"•" "' ""^ '•vid.•m..^ as I .h'sire lo .h., an.l n.dniinin.ise il, von may ar-ne or inh-r Ihal p.-rha, s if son... IVw w.'nl ha.'k from Ihe drives Ih... Ihev "'iHl.l 1.0 .Inven ..ver a^ain, Iml wh,.|h..r Ihey wore nol all idlimalclv Kill.'d isole„nrs.- qiiile a .liller.'iil .pi.!sli.,n. This is Ihe poinl Ihal lill IKilO, the seals w.-re snili.ienllv ahun.lanl nol 1.) mp,nv Ihis s.-eond driving, and Ih.. .irivinf; whiel, Mr l";i|i.,tl eom- Plains .)l n..v..r look pla.:,. till |S',K), an.l Ihal the evi.len<;o is ..onelnsive to slM.w. \Nell m.w .snpposelhaUhe .Irivinj; i., IHilO-an.l liial isanoth.T «-onfdm-e Ihal ,s nitcrly vvilhoni fonndalion - suppose that s..m.. ofth.-s,. i-e-.ir.yen s.-als wore injnr.u! hy thai proeess in IW)(), when wonhl that make its appearance in tli.> h.M'd? Thoy ..oul.l not hegi,, i„ |,c p,od„elive till thoy wer.. "i or voars ol.i -nono.;ouhl ^."1 on l..;il,e r....kcry and it is nol prelen.l.3.1 Ihev could I llien thcs.- .Invcn s.-als could l.ef.in lo b.> prodn.aive when ."i or (i years old, d w..ni.l he, of .onrse, still anolher v.'ar alter ihal, if not 2 or ;j l.«'loro the results of any failur.; in re-pro.luctivc capa.'ih woul.l make it soil apprcciahhi. lUs porle.'lly,.vi,le„t, ll.orolbre, that Ihis deen.asc, which .-vervhody aR-roes was to he s..en there in IHUd and l,S!)l , .oul.] not have .•ome from any abuse in the driviuf; in the year I «!)(). il is only now this is llie very earliest lime and season, that if any such fa.ls were true, they could — -Ji.'tS — iniiiiilVsl llii'insclvi's on llu' Isliirid. In IH'.KI Hit! rulcli was slopped on llic :2((lli .Inly l)y MrliuH', llic Unilod Stulcs Treasury Agcnl, borausc lio perceived llicy roidd nol f^el llie requisilc nundier which Ihcir cnnlracl allowed, and less than 'i^OHO skins were taken lliat year. It is nndonhl- edly true that, i -der to i;et lliat :>2(Htil skins in liiat year IH'.IO tlicrc was more or less excessive drivinj;-. I'e-drivinj;- — a method ofdrivin}; that probably could not i)e carried on as a permanent lliinjj; from year lo year willidid UMschievous results, hut it had never taken place before, and the reason was, because Ihei'e was no occasion for it. It was the result of the scarcity lliat had i)een broufjlit about by Ibis pela};ie sealinj; and for wliieli no reason is sufij;ested. Mr Justice Harlan. — What year is lliat? Mr Phelps. — ISill). I say no reason is sn>ij;ested. I slioiild per- liaps say that no reason is proved. There is a general talk by my learned friends about the consecpiences of driviiij;; but when yon look inlo the evidence to see when it look place, liS'.tll was the lirst lime, and then it stopped. The President. — Wlial was the allowance made by the (iovernmcnt for that year IS'.)!)? Mr Phelps. — I believe it was lOdOOO — I believe that was Ihe lirst year it was chunjj;ed. There was always a provision, you will remember in these leases, that llie number allowed on the face of the contract could bo diminisbed by the Treasury Af^cMil, and il was reduced General Foster reminds me lo (lOOdO by order of tlie Secr(>lary lo Hk; Treasury, and they were only able lo f;et less than 2200(1, so thai less than 22000 was actually taken, lliou};h Ihe SecrcC ry's order would have permitted them lo take C.OdOO if they coubl have fjot them. .Now, Ihe witnesses llial are relied upon on this subject of redrivin};, every one of tliem, refer only to Ibis year 1890, when the fact is not in dispute, but when, as 1 have said, it could have produced no possible ell'ect. This is what .Mr (iotf said who stop|)ed Ibis, and I read from Volume 111 of the liritisb Appendix, part III, paf;e 16 : — We oiioncd llic scasmi tiy a i\y\\i; IVoin llii' Red' lliii)l yearlings... and lliat wc were nicndy Idi'turinf!- llio ymiiij,' seals, injurin;: llio I'lilure lili; and vilalily id' the breodiiiff rook- I'lios, lo llie (lotriniciit nf Ijie li's.soes, nalivos and llie Governinenl. Now. in 1890 that is true; that is what Mr Golf reportiul to Ids (io- verniiienl. .\s already slated, thai is conceded. .Now, in his al'lidavil, .Mr Golf says, in the Lulled Stales' Gase, Vol- ume II, paf>c 1 1;{ : — A lew seals an! injured liy redrivin^' (ot'ien confounded willi nverdriviiif; and snnieliiiies so called), hnl llie number sn injured is inrinisidcrahle and could have nil appreciable ellecl njioii seal lile llirou^di destroying llie vilalily of Ihe male. — -223(1 _ TIk^ (li'crftase, caused by pola^fii; simHii},', ((imiicllcd wlmlinnr iiijiirioiis rodrivini,' has laknii placn on llic islands, as il was oI'Iimi nccfissary (o drive cvrrv (wo or lliico days I'nmi llio samu liaiilin^i f.'ioiinds, wliirli caused many seals lei jfn in a rnimei' " diive " Id lin driven over a^iain liel'cin' lli(ii(iMt;hly resled. jl'a " drive '' was made mice a \veid< I'mm a cerlain liaulirif;' ^rmmd, as had lioen the case hefure iiela).'ic. sealing' ^rew to sneh enormous propoilior. i, and deplelcd Hie loidicries, llioro Would lie no da!iia;;e al all resiilliiif.'' from redriviiif,'. Then .Mr Nolllcloii, aiiollior Trci-siiry .\j;enl, eniu'iirs in lliose viows, bcraiise in iiis ilcposilion, United Slates' Case, Volume II, page 70 lie says : — Tlie resnll of my observations of (lie metiiods lA' d^ivin^: llie seals from the liaiil- injifii'oimds lo tlii' kllliiif;- f,'roimds is thai a very small fraction (d' one percent ol till! seals die from liein^r overdriven or from bein^ oviriieati'd in driving. Somclliinf; is said about, Mr Palmer, wlio had no knowledge of lliis siihjeel. He was Ihcre with Mr Klliolt, and |iartal\('s of those views of MrKliiott lliat I sliall examine later. iNow on the llnssian Islands, as the liritish Commissioners themselves said, the driving was a great deal harder for llie seals tlian on the .Ame- rican. On Copper Island, say the Hritisli Commissioners in section 7(IG — on the contrary, I he drives ficnerally extend across the island, and are from tbroo lo four mill's ioiij,', very rouiili, and crossing one or more intervening;' sleep ridj^es. These driv( fad thai a seal when movin.L; on land raises himself slighlly on the bind llippers, so that his reiuodiictive organs are clear of the yround. Now in IH',n and l(S',)2 the number of seals killed on the ground was 13,000 and 7,i)00 rcspccMvely. In niMlher of (hose years were yearlings killed. .Ml yearlings driven up were allowed lo return lo the water. Then .Mr .Maconn's evidence or statement in the report is gone into, lie witnessed part of one drive, wliicli is all lliat lie claims to have known anything about. And if you lake the trouble to read il, I do iiol care lo s])end so much lime upon being critical upon this, you will see llic conse- quences. Now let me refer to some few of the witnesses as rapidly as I can with — -.'ilii — regard In llic iniiiu wilnosscs on this siihjccl oI'driNiiif; lo Itc roiiiiV(>(l llit'i'i* in oni> ciiiiiiciK or anollici', and knoNsin^; alionl llii' iiianniT in vNliidi lliis liikiw |)iiii'(\ a liiisincss yon will n Hurl, Ilic niciliodiii'llii'iirs ol'wIiirli.iAiloscrihod li\ llit>(i(HnniiHsioniM's (liomsolvoH as an ideal incllmd. Tlic only ohjcrlion llial is allfnipliMl lo l)i> slaliMl lo il is IIk! iiianni'i' in wliirli il was ciirrird inio cll'i'iL .Mr Itryanl .says — and lliis is in llic .\|p|ii'iiili\ lo ilu' .Xr^iinncnl, \),\p- 'I'M't : — 'I'hi' (lri\iii^; iiriij Killing ni ihc liinln'ioi mmIs \v,is always I'ai'ricii cm iu lln' uuiA cai'i'l'iil niaiiiii'i' ami liarln}; ni.\ >lay n|iiiii llic i>lanils. Ilii'ii' was iii'arlicaiiv no injury causi'd let sral lili' iiy inrnlriviiij.:. ami alli'l' IST.'t, wlicn horses and niuli-s were iiili'iiiliici'd by llii' li'~--iL'- In haii-piiil llic >Kins. llu' ^cals were iinl dri\cM as far, kdlliii; ;.'rnuiids licin;; cslahlUinid iii'ar tin' Ijaiiliii^ ^icjuiuIs, and llii' liis> liy nver- (hi\in^; wa> it'diici'd lo llic rraclimi nl' I |ici' cml. Mr Kalcinujr. who was on llic Islands t'roni 1870 lo 18"."), says in his li'slinniiiy. — Icannol read il all :■ — Tlic urcali'sl care was always taken lud lonverlieal Ihe scaN in driviiii; tln'iii, and when a seal was by aecidcnl sini)llicrcd, IIk; skin wa-^ removed and ccuniled in the Mllliilier alliiwi'd 111 lie laken li\ llic lessees 'I'liere were liid, In lint lii'sl of my recdl- lertinii, Iweiily-live >eals killed diiiiiii;' any niie seasiiii on SI. (Ieiirf;e liy nverdiiviiiL'. Wlienever.llie sun eaiiie mil while a " drive " was In pidiircss Ihe driviii- al iplice ceased, so yrcal wa- Ihe rare laken iml lo ovimIumI llie seals... 1 ii(!Vnr saw or heard ol' a imsi' where a male seal was seiionsly iiijnreil by diiv- in;.' or redriving C.prlainly Ihe ri'prodiielivi' |iowers were never in Ihe sliiihlesl dei:ree impaired by Ihi'se means. When we consider thai llii! bulls, while balllini; on Ihi' rookcrii'S in niainlain llii'ir pnsilions, enl );real flashes in \i\v lloli of their necks and hodii's, are i-ovi'ied with ;;apiii;; wounds, losc^reat ipiaiililii'S ol' blood, last on the islands liir llir IV I'unr iiioiilhs. and llieii leave the isbinds lean and covered with scars. In relniii the lolbiwiny season I'al, healthy, ami lull of vi,i:or, to f;d tlironKb aftaln the same mnlilalion,aii(l repealin;.' Ihisyear alter yi;ar, Ihc idea that driviiii.' or rcdriv- in:;, which can not possibly bo as s(!Voru as Ihi^r I'xurlions dnrin^' a combat, can .'illecl siiidi nneipial viijorand virility, is utterly preposlcrons and ridiculous. Senator Morgan. — Has any wilness ever slalcd Ihal, IVoiii his ohscr- \alion, Ihcrc was any loss ol' virilily in iiiak- seals ? Mr Phelps. — .No, I am comiiif; lo that. I waiil lo ^cl in Ihe Icsli- mony of some ol' these witnesses, and Iheii I will ol)s(!i'vc upon that in eonnexion with .Mr KllioU: To show the wonderful italily id' the male seal, I will f,'ive one instance; and 1 do iiol cant loi'ol'. ^ Ihal up. Then Mr (Hidden \ was on the Island from I8S'2 lo \Wr, — y(ni will see these .\f;cnls f> • dilVerent periods — in Ihe Appendi.x lo the .\rgnmei\l al paf;c237, s s: Tlie (Iriviii.n from the h diu^' i:rounds to the killinj; j;roniids was always con- ductod with the greatest ca'. . was done at ni,i;lit or very early In the morning slow- ly and wilb frequent resls. so that Ihe seals miu'lit not become overbealed. I>iirini.'llie killiiii; the merchantable siials were always carefully sideeled. No females were killed, except, perhaps, one or two a season by accident, and the remainder of the herd wctru allowed to return to the water or liaiiling groniids. Very low (iiind ill I lie llli'll (Ml ||||> III klluwjll^ II rccdllurl, lliomscivoH 1)0 staled lo nil siivs — I ill IIk' iiio>| ill\ III) injiirv iiiiilis well' li'ivcii as r,ii', luss liy over- says ill his i\i IIhmii, anil llllrli ill (III' ol'iiiy ri'ciil- iivi'i'driviiii;-. I' ilriviiii; al iril liy ili'lv- iM' iiiipaii'i'il H' I'liulii^rii's anil lioilii'-c, llir islaiiils nil scars, 111 :li a^aiii III!' •j: 111' ii'diiv- .'oiiihal, can I.IIIS. his iihser- Ihe lesli- )ii llial ill s:; — vdii lix lo Ihe ilways con- iniii;,'sl(iw- ivci'liealcd. Nori'inales romaiiidi'i' Vorv tow '.'■-Ml - si'ais w.in, Killed in a •• driv -, and lli,. ,kins uf l|„.s.. w..|v, i !arly rv.TV rasr ''''"'"""' " '"•'■'' '" II"' '|ii"l^i illnwrd In !.,. (akm l.v II,,' |,.>s,.,.s'. Tl,;. ,„„„• ["'''"'-""'■' l^'' 'illii-uay,- imliH.s^ildy liav,.air.Tl,.ds,.aliir,.„M is|;,„d "''■ ■ "" '" '"''"■'' "I'' '■■!■''• "'"'Ill ■■' ii'iili' si'al was snioiislv injnivd l,y .JiiNln- '"■ ''"liiMiij.'; and I d ,t |„di, v,. ilial viriliiy or malrs dnvwi was lii.sln.ved l.v .•lin,lnn^„N,.rll,r lurKs ,„■ allrrlnl h, aM> way l.y diivin^. Oilainlv llio ivi;,,,- ""■""■ l"'""''^ "I'"'''" lil Ill" i^liiNds w.-iv ,„.v,.r diTivasc.d nr inipailvd l.v ilii'si' niclliiids. Then Ik liereri.nl Ihe resii|,.|il |.liysiei,iii\vas Ihore IVoiii IHH(» lo |H!M, ro\eriii- Ihe wli„le lime in wliieli lliis oveniriviii;,' or le-diivin^' iiiiisl I'livelakenplaee, il'il was li. |.ii.diiee any eileel lliat is yet noliceuhle. and he says; ilii! iiudln.ds ,.n,p!oy,M| in liandlini: the drives arr (I,,, samo i.lentieallv as „f l\v,.|ity year- ap,. Tlii' sun,- nirtliuds were nbs,.rvcd when 1 (list «vnl lo tin,. Islands ;",:'' ""';'■'" "'*^'" "'"f^ ""' I"-"'"' "''•' " '■'•<■'■•■'•••'" I" a^ .til aehial innease in m.,! '"''• ■""' ''"'" I ' '•"iiliiiiieil 111' to (III. preM.nl limes. There Is nnllii„r dideronl ;'.";"!'^ " ""'""- ''"■'•'-•'^'^' of vessels and Imnlers ,.„j,a,:,vd i„ p.da^i,; seali,,.- iii llelirii.i.' rii'a. '" Mr Kiniiiiel was Ihe (loveninient Agent on S|. (lei.r-e Island in ISH2 iiiid I.SW.'i; and he deserihe^ lhe manner in which llie>e seals were driseii iiiid slates iwithi.nl me paiisiii- j,. r.'ad i( snhslantiallj what tlio^e wil- iiosses whose l(!stiini.ii\ I have i^.Terred losav. Knikoir, an Aleut resident on ,. j'anl jsiand ever since ISC'), on,. ,)r Ihe employes, savs: — ■rhiMlriviii- is all iln,,,. |,y nurnun pcnpl,, anil,.r din.clion ,.l'lli,. cliids and wu n..v,.r drive laslcr lliaii al.nin |,alr a mil,, in one hour. \V,j verv s,.|,|„m driv,^ twic,. Iiiim on,, n.iiki.ry in one week... I never saw a siial kill,;,! I,y .ivenlrivin,:; ,ir l.v ..verliealin;; ; .hI,I,,ii,.< do ,11,. ,,n He. ilnves l,y smotl„.rin., I.ul llii.ir skins are taken l.y Ihe upanvand are e„ui I in Willi llic iilhi.rs. Mr i-niid was III,. Aj;i.|il |r,im ISSI jo ISS'.l.and he savs: — While I was „„ ih,. i.laniN I allei„|e,l nearly ,.v,.r\ •• ,lrive ■ nrihe haidn.h.r seals In.m III,' liaiiliiii;- |,'rounils hi Ihe killiii- -rouiiils. - — as il was his diil\ lo do. — And Ihes,. •■ ,lriv,.s ■ w.-r ndii,h.,l l.y Ih,. nalives wilh -ival .'ar,., and no seals w,Mv killed l.y nver,lriviiif.'. pl,.iily of lime hi-in;.. alwavs -iven II , I,, n.s| and I'ool idr. A lew \v,.r,. -.molln.n'd liy tli,. s,.als rlimhin,- ov,.r ,.acli .illier when wel. liul lhi. numher was viTy ineonsiil,.rahle. and so on. Then iti' Me Inlyre was on Ihe Islands rn.in l,S7ll I,. IHSJ, and In.m iHS'i lo l,S,S'.»; and In- li.>lili,.s rnrlh.'r al.,)nt this lo |h,. same |.nr|,orl with his teslimoiiN llial I read Itelore, and I will ski|. readiiii; il rojw. n'Noyeswas a n.sideni i.hysician on Hit. Islands In.m ISSII |o isii;}; and his t(>stiinon\ is lo Ihe same elleel. .Mr nedpalh was Ihe Ai^eiil I'lt.m 187."". lo IHiKV .MrWardman from l!SNl tu iHKi, and Mr \Vehs|,.r IVoiii ISTII (o — -l-H-2 1893. and still llioro. It would only bo a wearisome ro|)etilion to read overa}C(pience that he is entitled to. I have nolhini; to say about him oi' aiiaiusi him. \ (Ui will reuu'Uibcr. when wi- bei;an this heariui; Ion;; a^o. Iherc was an a|)plicalion for Mi' V.l- lioll's Itejiorl. Had lliere been any attempt to suppress .Mr I'llliiitt's lle- |iorl? We had i;iven il lo Hie lirilish ("oininissioners when at W'ashinj^- lou. and the\ had had il asliuiiias they wauled il. II was lutt printed then. Thai hows tlieri' was uo disposilion to citnccal il. Why was not it printed? Not one in liveol'lhcsc c()ii>lanl Itep.'ris — nii\, not one in ten are pi'inled. If we could pul in Hie Ictler that accompanied this from the Secretary lo the Trcasurv. \ou would tiiul out wliv il was not priuled. I cannot Icll you and I cannot slali' the reason without pulling myself ill a jiosilion thai I should ([iiile decline lo occupy in allempliiii;' lo make a sl.ilcnienl thai is not warranted b\ au\ evidence in the case, because there is no evidence. If the llejiort had come in and become evidence in Hie case, so that wc could reply lo il, all this wonhl he shown. Now Mr lllliotl. wliiise knowlediic on Ibis subject I do not ileprecialc, while he is far less of a man than ni\ leariiei\e in the case? What is the Inniiile.' Mr lllliotl liad been connecled. as .bulge Swan said — and I think he told llie liiilli pro- bably — and it would nol he I'cspcclfid lo assuiiu> il of an\ man with llie title of.liidge that he would say au\ thing else ~ liial Mr Kll'oll had been connected with lln^ iild Conipanv. There was a violeiil compelilion al Washington abort the rent'wal of the lease, and the new ('imi|iany got il from lh(> old, and Mr {".lliod's side was defeated, ami then inime- dialeh after — lint is lo sa\, wilhin two or Ihree months, he made his appearance on the Islands. Tlien whal look place? For Hie lirsl liuu' in the world, he makes the discovery thai Ihe virilil\ of Ibis herd was being deslio\ed b\ this busi- ness of overdriving, lie does nol say il took jilace liefore IS'.MI; he had nol been there for man\ vtMrs, and hisl!e|iorl siiows. when he «as llicii' last, he could nol speak in loo high lernis of Ihe uiauner in which llie driving was carried on; but he seizes on litis coiulilion id' thing in IS'.K), and makes il llu^ basis of a vioK'ut allack. Senator Morgan. — Hoes his name ap|iear in Ihe Acl of Appropriation thai aulhori/ed him lo go oul IIumv? Mr Phelps. — I do not know. Sir, (ieneral I'osler >a\s Ilia! il was an .\cl aulhoi'i/ing Ihe 'ppoinlmcnl of an Ageiil, lie was nol parlicularly named, ^ou would know belter as lo whal Ihe .isual usage with regard lo a thing of Ihal -orl a- lliau I >li.>uld. Mr Justice Harlan. — He wa- appoiuled by Ihe Secretary of Ihe Trea- snrv. Sir Charles Russell. — Ves; lie was nol named. Mr Phelps. — Well, Ihis discovery of Mr KUioll was an allack (Ui Ihe adminislralion of Ihis new Companv thai bad gol in. .Now see whal il is; a violeni rhelorical allaciv upon Ihe bnsiuess tiial Ihis ('.(un|ian\ was carrving on. U'ell, il i-^ doe lo Mr Kllitdt losa\, in treating him fairb Ihal tlu' mclliod of driving Ihal he saw Ihere in IS',MI was (dijecliouable, a> I ha\e iread>| admitted, and lu Ihal cxlciil liial Ihe Treasury .Vgeul had lo |iiil a stop to it. ItuI if that is all he had said, he •28:i 1 — 2244 — would have said only what wx; say now; but lie starts tlie theory oi' its offecl upon the virilily of the herd. Now 1 answer Senator Morgan's question, if he will (;\cuse ine for having postponed it until 1 could make it intelligibly. There is not a living witness (hat I know of, and I say that subject to correction, that ever pi'ctended to have made any such discovery. In order to give apparent currency to it, Mr KlliotI cites this passage from the Itussian writer Veniaminof, at |)agc 203 of his Kcport ; and this is the way his translation reads. Nearly all the old inoii think and assuiilhat the si'als which an' spared every year, i. e., Ihusu which liavi! not been killed lor several years, ixw. truly of little use for breeding, lyinf? about as if Ihey wcM'e outcasts or disfrancliiseil. W'liat was the true translation? We have an official translation here, if anyone desires to see it, by the French Foreign Office. Sir Charles Russell. — Is the original here? Mr Phelps. — Yes, certified by the French Foreign Office. I'liis is the correct translation. Nearly all the old travellers think and assert that sparing the seals for some years, i. e. nni killing them for some years, does not contribute in the least to (heir increase and only anionnts to losing them forever. .Vnd Veniaminof makes no reference whatever to driving, and does not say one word about any supposed effects ftf driving upon the repro- ductive powci's of tile seal. Sir Charles Russell. — Have you the original, — the text of Venia- minof.' Mr Justice Harlan. — II is in lUissian or French? Mr Phelps. — liussian, ! believe. General Poster. — We have not that here. Lord Hannen. — is not if that the elTect of driving is such that it is no use sparing their lives, — is nol that the ell'ect of it? Mr Phelps. — iVo, I will read it again. Lord Hannen. — if you please. Mr Phelps : Nearly all the old travellcis Ihiiik and assert Ihal sparing Ihe seals for some years, i. e. not killing them lor sonie years, does md conlril)iit(! in Ihe least lo tlu'ir increase and only anionnts to losing Ihem lorever. What does he mean by that? Whal I was saying yesterday; by the natural conditions of this lierd you canind keep up the number of males, — nalun; does not keep up the ccpud nuniber of males and feniides, though beyond doubt an equal number are born info the world. That was a (pieslion that was early suggested by the President, and which I endeavoured to answer yesterday. If in polygamous animals there are as many females as males in Ihe world, how comes it to jiass. in a state of nature when nobody interferes with Iheui there are nol as many females as males. That is llio ipiestion I'll is is — 2215 — we are clisciissiii>>. Ho was discussinj;- llio ((iicstioii of wlial sort ol' policy would il be to slop killing and let them all f^row, — let all these males alone Cor a period of years. Le! them all come to the period of puberty. The President. -- l!u does not speak of the driven seals ? Mr Phelps. — No, not tlieleast. He says, what observation shows as lo all, that you will not get any more males by that, it will be the fittest that survive, and you will have the same condition of things that you had before; in other words, you have lost those seals that you might have taken without detriment to your herd. That isallGencral I'oster reminds me this is to be found in the Counter Case, the full translation. Now, if I had nothing to do to-day but review Mr Klliolt's Ueporl 1 think I could make il a little entertaining and amusing If you read his field-notes ^l will give you a specimen at pages 230 and 237) his field notes contain an ounce of observation lo a pound of rhetoric. A scientific observer would make lield-notes out of doors and put (hem down as a basis for siibsecpient collation and analysis, — as statistics: but his sta- tistics are all rheloric. l-'or instance, and this is only a sample, on June the Kith, I«',)0. Iheseare his field-noies, al page 230. This Hiniatnral aclinii ol' llic cnws, en- ralliur iiiiwdiitcd iiiuvc il, lias causcil tlio luips aliuady In Ibrm small puds cviMvwiunu, even whore tlii' cows aic. most abuiulaiit, which shadows Ionic tho Inilh of the lad Ihal in five days or a week IVoin dale, Uie scallerinL' compjetelycjrilie looUi ry orKanizalioii will lie Ihonui.iihly done. Sir Charles Russell. — lie goes on to say that it did nut take place until (he 2(llh lo the 2;Jlh of Julv, 1H72. Mr Phelps. — I do not read all this : — II is impossihle not to consider the (piestion which this scene every nioinenl pronipls — " what |iro|Hirtion of Iheso (dd males which we see here now, over- iloiic and seaiil in iniinliei' - whal ralio ol' llieii' iinndiei' will livi' lo ri'lniii nexl year.' and il' Ihey do all live lo rchnn. whal manner of i;ood will Ihey he'.' — in many cases will Ihey he polenl al all .' " And a-ain, nol a sinde yonn-" hidl to he seen on the lircedin;;- .-ronnds or al lln' hreedin;:- niarj;ins : Where are Ihey cominjr I'roni '.' 'riic>-, so cons|iirnoMS hy llieir nnndiei-s and au^ri'ssiveness in IS7l)--i! Where is Ihe new iilood which mnsi laki' Ihe place ol' lliu old and enl'eenliMl sires liel'ore lis '.' already lailin;,' lo iiieid Ihe demands cd' Ihe hour on evi'ry side and ahead ol' us I Where is it '.' The only answer which my sindy ol' Ihis season ,i;ives me is Ihrvf is un nrw hli,<,d. naliire I'wimih hfl. Then lower down ; — The poaclieralsea has lent his aid since l.ss.'i lo this doslructiun. — Sir Charles Russell. — I think you ought to read the next ; he docs refer (, di'ixing, Mr Phelps. - Vcs, I am willing: il was onl\ to save time, and I hope (he Arbilnilors will li'cai (hcnisclves (o (he very lidle iiilcresling cn(er- (ainment there is in Ihis case of (he humourous kind by perusing some of Ihe Jield-iioles of Ihis sciciililic observer. Whal my learned friends wauls me to read is : — — 2'JI(i — I'lii' tluli :iii(l I'lli'ils (il (liiviiit; has (Icslniyi'd il, sidwiy ill llisl, lilil surely lliri>iif;liiiiit Ilii'lasI ciuhl yi-nrs ! Il(> li;i(l iiof lici'ii llici't'! Sir Charles Russell. — " And rapidly during llio last lliroo of lliis period. Mr Pholps. — Yes. And lapiilly tliiiiiii; llie liisl llireiMil' Iliis peiioil — ospociuUy riiiiid last your and at llie I'.i'sciil lidiir. lie had iioi Ixuni lliei't;, and iiol a liviiii; man lold him so. I'lvery man who was thei't; swears lo Ihc conlrary, Ihis is a liold nolo I I'liiild sjieiid hair a day rcadiii;.; Iliis il'il wci'e malerial lo show Iho charachM' of llic man. lie slarled on his Ihcory, and like some lU'aloi's j^ains in slren;;lli as he goi's on, as he warms np lo Ihe snl»j(;cl he hecas.| in'cessilv lo discredil Mi' Kllioll. hecanse in e\er\ dispnied poiei in Ihe case hnl Ihis. he snslains Ihe I'niled Slales' coid('nli(Hi as compL'leiv as all onr (dher wilnesses do, so Ihal in nine-leiiihs of Ihis case .Mr Kllioll hecomes mii' witness. \Vc do not ueud hiui and do nul call him, hnl we accepl his slalemeiits wliuH il is put — '."217 — ill l»y IIh) oilier si(l(!. And, IlKiriilnn), il. is only on this poiiil in wlii„|| IMr I'liiioll is coniplolcly iinsworod wlioii we point oiil llnil llic rcdriviiif^ lliiil 111! oUy'Hs l(. never look place hefon; IHDO, arid while Ik; seems lo iissiime in some of these rhelorieal passa^i's that il has, he does not say so, and could not say so without saying that which is iinlriie. Neither does he eit(! any authority. ir my learned friend do(!s not like .lndn(! Swan I will rdcr him to what MrTnpp(!r savsahonl him. Sir Charles Russell. — I did not say that I disliked Mr .hislice Swan. Mr Phelps. — I do not mean lo say that yon did, hiit .Mr 'I'npper in a Ieth;r in the Itrilish Case pa^e :{, has the loUowinK crilieism made np(in Air Klliott hy .Mr \V. L. Morris. Il is not MrTiippcr, hnt he cilcs il. lie says Mr .Morris says: ■I'llis lii;ui si.,.|Ms U,Ur the li.'llar.il f ,r .Slllsl<;i. |,n,sr,lilinf; ,,,1(1 IHIsecNiiliK Imt Willi llie l.iilsli .'iiiil Mm |i(.|| „r ,1,1 (i\|,<'il, \vlwi„.\ri' iiiid wlinvver iii! run get lui .iiKlieiiee, und I ,illiil,iili. Hi,. pn!seiil, roilm-ri enndilioii nf ||m' liTrilmy mere lo llis i-iioi-;iiie(! Hiiil iiiisrepivsciiliitiMii lliiiii Id iill (i|,|i,.|. ruH^rs eornliiiii'ij. .. 'I'hal is ralher rhelorieal; and Mr Tiip|)cr then ^oes on to say. Mk <'vi,leMee in IS.SS is »p<.|| advoniey oldie IJriil.MJ Slales ennleiilieii. His wnliii-s uikI rep,, lis pri.ir l,i llu! (li.spale will be relcriid li, and il will l,,^ Mil, milled lliul his shili'iiienls ,in,l experieiieus before IHHH hiu'diy suiiporlliis jaler llii„ii,.s. Thai iswhat wesay, and IC Dawson, one oriheHrilish Commissioiieis, estimates I'roles.sor Klliolt like this, lie is told hy .liid-e Swan - see iho United Slates Connler Case, paf;(! ill, who ipioles W hawson as lollops. Kllioll's work ,,ri si'.ils is amiisiii};. I have no hesilaliou in s.iyin;,' lli.il Ih, iv is no imp,,rlaiil p,,inl Ih.tl li,. laki's up in his hunk Ihal \u: d.,es' nol eonlru,li,l soniewhuiv ,dse in lli,' same covers... llis work is snperlicial in 111,: exlnaii,.. This is reallv Irillin-, and it is of no impmlaiK'e al ail. (»n lliis ho e(msl.rnrls a ihem'v, and il is hnl a theory. Mow in the world could ;ins- l)od\ come lo a conclusion ahont IIk^ ell'ect upon a aniniiil oflliis kind which he seeks loallrihnh^loil. There is only on(; wa\ in Ihe world, and Ihatis to \\ail Ihe icsnit of experience. Then yon can lind onl, ofconrse. Time will leil. .Nothiiif; else will tell unless indeed it were somelliin- liiat is not intended lo exist in Ihis case, some sn.'li .special e.xteiiiir injury as would show lor ilsell' what ils conseipiences must he. I pass over much more thai I could say on this point, poinling out the errors ot his reasoning and his mistakes in point of lacl upon Ihis; hut I do not Ihink Ihal Ihe ca.sc requires il. Now, we are upon Mr Kllioll I want to verily what ! said jnsl mow iu reference to his sup|Mirl (d' the contenlion of Ihe Cniled Slates; and I will just naiiK! tin; points on which you will lind lie does support Ihe eonlenlion of Ihel.nited Slates. I read from pa;;o (lO of his llepoil, Tli(>se are dehiched passages, hut you have Ihe ileporl and Ihe c.nlexl is all hehne you : — TlMMi'dygamous habil of Ihis animal is such Ihal, by ils own volilion. I do not — 'J'JIS — think tlialmoru than (ine iiialo amuuilly out nf lirtoun boiu is iioodcd (in liie l)reed- ing-gi'ounds in the future ; Then, on |»ago 1 18. In this aduiiralily iicit'ccl nieliiod of naluro arc (iioso soalswliiciicaii l)o |iropoi'ly iiilled witiioul injuiy to tiiu rookorics, solci'l • i and held aside l)y tlicir (iwii voli- tion, so tiiut tlic natives can visit and take llieni without disturljini.', in the least degree, tlie entire (juiel of tiiu breeding-grounds, wiiere llie stock is iicrpcluated. Then, on page \'M). When tlie holluschickk arc up on land : — Sir Charles Russell. — You really must read the next line : — Such was tlie nundier and method of the young niali' seals in tSVi-ISTl. Mr Phelps. — Well, really, Ihave not time to read much of this. Sir Charles Russell. — Yes, I will no! iiilerposc. IVir Phelps. — IT I niuKe a rel'erenee, it is hy no means my purpose to i;Ke any nni'air tleduciion IVom .Mr Kllioll. \'(iu will set- l»y reference to pages 71 and 7i-, he regai'ds the melhods adopled on the i'ribilof Islands as excellent; and lie describes the drives in the parts (jiioled from his Iteporl of 187 'i on pages 122 and 128. Now on page 2()!l id' his present report he says : 1 should ri'mark that the driving of the seals has been very carefully done, no exira ,'ushing and smothering of lln! herd, as it was frei|nenlly done in ISi'J. .Mr liotf bi'gan with a sharp admonition and it has been scrupulously observed, thus far, by the natives. Then on page 283, he says : Yesterday afleruoon 1 wont liack tn Tolstoi over the seal road on which the drive above lallieil svas made In 111" nigbl and morning of the Tib inst.; Ihe number of road " faints " or skins was not large, whieb shows Ibal the nati\ ; had lakeii gri'al eaer in driving llnise si'als; Ibis Ihey have uniformly done thus far. Mr Justice Harlan. — What year was lie speaking of there — 1800. Mr Phelps. — I8',)0 — when he was on the Island, lie had not hoen there since 1870. You will liiul what he says about killing leiuales on page 71. We do not touch or disturb these females as they glow up and live; and wi! iK^ver will if Ibo law and iiresenl luanagomenl is continued. Then on page 213 he says : In is;!,') for Ihe Mrs! tmie in Hie lii>tory of this industry on these islands was Hie vital |irlnejpli^ nl not Killing lemale si'als, lerogni/.ed. lie sajs again thai according to his obsiM'vations ol' 1872 to 1871 and I87(), Ihe herd could salelv siippoil a draft tar larger than 1(1(1,(10(1, pro- biilih as lai'g(; as 180,0(10 annnalK. Thai will be found on page (10. Me waslhcre in llie Ihrec ycnrs 1872 lo 1871 ; he was there again in 187(1 and he does not intimate in the report ot 1800 that Ihecoi.dition of 22)0 l«7r was no( as good as llial of Iho previous years 1872, 1873 and I87i ^ow Nvhat does lie say al.oul pelagic sealing. This is on page l\. 5.4=;;^::.^: ::r::r;;r;;:";*u; :;tr;:f ;::;::::;;::-;:: And on page 13 he says : as .,;,;"'" '" '"",""'" '"'''"' "'"' l^"' °"« <'"•'"=' ""'"^^k onlsid,. .,f nalural TI»on if you will (nrn lo page 21 i yon will see what he says on another poinllhai I hav.. nol observed upon - perhaps shall not -that is the loss Ihrongh wounding and sinking ol' seals. It says: Four Ihousand fomalo soals heavy will, thoir unl.o.n voun« aro killodin order to sooun. ovory one Ihousand skh.s lakon. (Soo also „a,„ h loot no., ). 'I'I.en if yon will turn to page 211 I will read another quotation. He recommends Ihere : 7-/u„ oil ,,el,,,,u- H'nlin.j in the ,r„t,'rs of ll.hvh,,. Son he ,,rohil.;u.l and sunnrrs.rd IM.> slop ,s ,M|ually,m,„.ralivr; ll„. i.iuaoralily of that demand ma.h'hy (h.. o,n.u wal,.rseal,.,.|o rnin wilhin a low she,-, y,,„-s and dcshov fo.ev.r II, s' lu boa,..ng .nierests on Iho Prlbiloll.lands, th. innno.aiily of this u.n.and ca not ^he.e h\e Ih.nisand Innial,. s.als hoavy with tln.ir nnho.n yonngaiv kilh.,1 in order o socuro every one thousand skins taken is repngnant to U.e sense o decoir nd the sini|desl mslinets ollrue manhood. iti-uuLy ana I <-annol refrain from expressing- my lirm heiief thai iflhr Irnlh is known made I'l-" to respons.h e heads of the eivilixed powers .f Ihe world, Ihal nol or.e f ^ e u ermnen s wd 1 es.tale lo unite will, ours in elosing IM.riuK S.^a and Is ,^ ;:; il;:.;^;:;:;;;;;; •"^""' '^' ^'-^ "-" ^'" ^^'^^^ '•'"■ -^"'"^' "-'■'^ "- "• 'h^k ->- Von will liu.l on page 21.7 what he says on another poini s.\ncM ha. been mooted here -whether a female seal suekles anv voung !„., her own II has been said by some people, in order to break the eU'ecl of jhis murder of nursing mothers, Ihal, after all, (he olher nursing mother. Ihat are not krile.! may suckle olher pups. Well the ahsurdil v of Iho slale- ■nent (bat a fraction of the mothers ould suppiv all the pups will. ...s- tenancc. is all the eontradhdiou that thai should require. Well if it bo not the .N.se - and I do not think it worth Nxbile to go over a -ood deal ol evidence to show Ihat il is nol (rue, - Mr KUiotl says at pa-e •>')(! speaking of the killing of li.ese nursing mothers : '^ Tlml .nenns d,.all. or permanent disahility, eve., if ,he n.ws are d.iven hut o, :: " ;:J;o;,r "" '"" '^"" '"" """""'• ""^^ ^"'" """ ""' -" •"• '"""""«" Now with respect to the pups learning to swim upon which Ihere has Iteen some criticism, Mr liUiolt says at page 255 : — 22»n — III llii' boRinnins of An<;iist.i lai-fip mnjorily of lliom aro wholly unuspd to water. And lie siiys that ii miinlu'r of liiciu do iiol i;ol inlo llit> waliM- hcforc SeptciiilxM' tlic I si. He speaks also of llio ficnlle disposition of those seals. On page 123 he says. " Docility of fur-seals when driven " — is his title — I was also iiiipiissi'il by (In' siiijjnliir ddcilily ami aiiiiabiiily nl' tlicsn animals wlion (Irivi'ii alunj,' llio irad; llii'y iipvim' slmw llglit any iiKiro llian n flock of slico|i wouM do. Then on pa{;e t)8 on the " (ientleness of the seals " he says — '• Descend with me Iroin llils s.ind dime elevation of T(dsloi, and walk inlo llie drove of liollnstiiickie " Indow lis; we can do il ; yoii do lud noliee miirli ronl'iision or dismay as we ^'o in anioiiir llieni ; lliey simply open out bel'oic iis and iloso in liehiiid oiu' Iraeks, stirrini:, (■ro\\dinf,' to Hie rif-'lit and lell as we f,'o, Iwenly feel away from iis on each side. I.ookal lliis small Hock idyeailiiii,'s, some one, olliers two, and oven llircc years old, which are coiigliiiij,' and spitlinj,' around us now, staring nj) at our faces in amazement as we walk ahead, llioy struggle ii lew rods out of our reach, and then come together again behind us, showing no furllier sign of notice of ourselves. Yon coiilil not walk in'o a drove of bogs at Chicago wilhout exciting as iihk b confusion and arousing and iiilinitcly more disagreabb; luiiiull ; and as for sheep Oh the pl,iiiis lliry would slanipede far i|uickcr. Wild animals indeed; you can now readily uiidersland how easy it is for I wo or three men, early in the morning, to come where we are, turn aside from this vast herd in front ofus and around us two or three thousand of the best examples, and drive them back, up and over to the village. This may he usei'nlly considered in connoclion with liie point thai we discussed some lime aj;o as lo the condition of tln^ seals as a mailer of properly, lie says furlliei- on page 18, in res|iect to the young females going hack lo the islands, w Inch has hceu made a suhjcci of discussion : — II must be buriie in mind, Ihal pi'iliaps to per ceni ofthecntin! number of b'males were yoarlin;;s last season, and came up on to tbesi; breeding-grounds as virgins for the lirst lime during this season — as Iwn year old cows, lliey of course bear no young. .\nd on the same page he says this : — 'I'his siiriilus area of the males is also more than balanced ami eipialized by the I,'), (100 iM' 'JO, 001) virgin females wbiidi come on to this rookery for (be lirst time to meet the males. They come, rest a b'w days or a week, and retire, leaving no young lo show their prosiMice on the ground. And on page \,V.) he says : — Next year these yearling females, which are now trooping out wllh the youthful males on the hauling-grounds, will repair lo the rookeries, while their male com- panions will bo id)liged lo come again to this same spot. .Now I may allude hrielly lo the coiidemnalion hy .Mi' Kllioli of various points Ihat have heen suggested rather than proved on the other side. On page 8)$ you will lind — I do not quote his language — that coilion does nol take place i;i the sea. On pages ;u and ."JS he contradicts the assertion thai the effect of •h:<\ imI by llio st (iiiiu to I'iiviiii.' no raids on llic Islnmls liad not liccn considerable us lending' lownrds lliis dorrcasc; and I may say lu'i-c al once lor all, for I liinnol dwell any lonf;- ei" ii|)on il — it would lake two or lln'oi days more if I were to ^d lliroiifili llie evideiiee nn all (lieso minor poinis — lei iik; say liert^ now in respect, ol' this business ol' raids on the Islands, thai I am entirely indiU'ereul wliicli way the I'acl is round, if there are any raids on Hie Islands and they have taken place undoubtedly in some instances; they come I'rom these |»elaf,'ic sealers, it is the \er\ presence in the water of these schooners Ihal produces all tlu' I'aids that have place on the Islands, whelhei' they are many or few ; and in {\w condition of tlu! weather there il is peihaps true that they cannot always be |)revented. That is ont? of the very mischiefs that we are tryiuf^to protect om-selves against not mere- ly that they are slaufjhlcriuf? the seals in Hie watei', but whenever tofj; or ninht or any accident enables them to do it, they j,'o upon the Islands and trespass there, lie says on page IV.) and on two or three other paj^es, that they have f^reat power of locomotion on the land. .Now there is another theory that has been thrown out here — that there is a congregation of \ouiig seals that do not come back to the Islands. I shall have a few words to say about lliat independently of .Mr Mlliott ; but on page i(i;] you will lind he says this : — Ily llii! lilli-'Jillli .liiiiii'. Ilii'v illii' liollti'^i'liii'kii' llic appear in lliuir lincst I'oriii and nnnilicr lor the sc:i'.i, he speaks again of the yearlings there, lie says : A great many yearling females arc halting cl of 1 (ibserved a very large proporliim of yearling cows soallered all over the breeding grnnnd from <'nd to end near the sea margin, while the yearlings of both sexes ari' ei)ni[ilele|y niivod upon (he dntskirts ul the rookeiT, here and everywhere else commingled with the adult cows ami their yuiiiig pups. Now there is another point that has been suggested hereby my learned friends, that these seals consume llie Ibod-lisbes, or that they may some time oranothcr. What in the world that has to do with this case I do not know. The question as to the right of the l.'nited States does not depend upon it. The cpicstion of regulation does not depend upon it, because the (jovenunenis — the nation — have |iropounded that to the Arbitration in the Treaty, lint .Mr Klliott shows that the true enemy of the tisliery is Hie dog-lisli,and that the seal is the devourcr of the dog-fish Vou will see on page 3(17 — this is worth reading: — 2Hl Sii|iiiiis(' fur aiKiiiiiiMil llial we could and ditl kill all llii- soals, \vn Wdiihl al miri' give till' deadly doff-llsli (St/wiliin-niirmliiins) wliii'li I'aii'ly swaiiiis in llicsi' walris, an iiiiniciix' iiiipi'lus In its iirnscnl cxloiisivn wmk (il'di'striirlinn of iinlnld inillions oryoniij; lond lislics siK'h as hci'iin).', rod, and salnmn. A dii},' lisli can and docs dcslioy every day id' ils cxisti'iicc linndri'ds and llmn- sands ol yonn^r cod. salmon, and oilier lood llslies — deslroys at least double and i|iiadrn|de as ninch as a seal; what is the most potent factor to tlio dostrnctloii of (he ilof;-llsli /list, lie will liedoinn |iosilive injury lo the very cause ho pretends lo champion, if hu is permitted to disturb this e(|uililiriuiM of nature and destroy the seal. iSow I have siiid more lliiin I oiifilil lo liiive imd lakeii up lime lo lalk nhoul .Ml' Klliotl ; and wlial is the coiicliisioii ot'llie whole .' II will he seen Ihal wc have iieilher desired (o suppress this Iteporl, nor had we the least iiicliniilioii lo do so. H you .slrike il uiil of this etise, you sirikc out nine parts of llie evidence lliat are in our favour, in order lo pd the one — the only one llial is af;aiiist us, so far as it ftoes, and that is destroyed, and the mistaken theory of .Mr Klliotl on that sidjject is exposed when we liiul his conelusion is one Ihal is not warranted hy any evidence — that the kind of drivini; that he ohjecis to had iievtM' taken place until IHtlll when he is talkinj^ ahout it, and that only in several years afterwards could il be ascertained whether this preposterous idea, as we think il is, of an injury to the vitality id' these seals is made by causes lo slight. Let lue say one word on the suhject, however of this waste and dcs- triudion by killing and by Ihe sinkiii}:; of sciil.* that are killed — the fatal wonndiuff of seals tliiit escape. .Now there is asgn'al deal of evidence on that |)oint. Il is evidence on both sides, and il would take a long time to go Ihrough and esliniate il. 'i'he evidence oti the ptirt of (ireat Kritain is these sealers, not only swearing in their own behalf, but swearing lo their own inarksmanship and success in killing seals. That il has been universally understood, until that testinioiiy was brought forward in this case, that the result was a vast waste, we have seen from everybody's statement who has made any statement earlier than this. It lU'ver was doubted before that il nuisl \h>; though Ibid will be Irausparent to any person who will reflect on the circumstances. Il will be mure Irausparent to anyone who has ever in his lift- had anNlhingtodo with the business of shooting id all, and above all of shooting game or ani- mals in the water. No man who has had any such experience as Ihal will be persuaded otherwise than that a very large number of animals under Ihe best circumstances must be losl — always art; lost. No man who has shot a deer in the water, or who has shot at ducks in the water and nol upon the wing — at animals that frequent the water — does not undcr- slaiul how large a percentage necessarily must be losl. And if you bear in mind that Ibis Sealing .Association agreement among each other reipiires that only a certain number of" old hands " in the business shall be em|)lo\ed on each vessel, whatever the reason of thai is; and even many of the witnesses thai attem|(t lo make out that a very large propor- tion of seids are saved out of those that are killed, make Ibis qualilica- lion — " IIh' tiirni /lu/ii/ \oh(>, " Woll, llicy lined nnl say llinl. VVc knnsv lli:ilf;rnon liimds los(! (ho seals. II is a very export niiuksmaii iiidetMl llial woulil iiol lose a };real many — the j;roen hands lose on Iheir own sliowin;;. Itiil I jiiiss over lliis li';lilly for Ihis reason Ihal lliis, like so iiiaiiy poiiils lliid have heeti discussed, really does nol hear on Ihe issne. Il'lliey are (o destroy the animals they arc nol any more destroyed heeanso they sink lo Ihe liotlom ol' Iho sea, and their skins ai-e lost. They are lost to lis jnst as nuieli. Tluir olleel uiion Iho herd is Ihe same. It is only the question whelher those thai kill them ^et the profit of the skins ; and yet at the same lime il is most nalnnil lo ohserve that you liiid af,'roed all lhroii};h Ihis ease, hy those who have e(niimcnle(l upon il, Ihal Ihe waste and deslriielion aloni; of Ihis inolhod of sealin;; eondemiis it, if you are lo look at all at the inlerosis of mankind in Ihe preservation of Ihis herd or Ihe inlerests of eoiiiiiieree in having; lln; yearly product. If those eonsideralions enter at all into the question, why (hen it is a material eonsideralion, thai, as we say, a very larf;e proportion variously stah'd hy the witnesses (I will not undertake lo say what, for I have made no esliniato of Iho result of Ihe testimony) are lost. Thou you have mupieslionahh noliced another Ihiii;; — thai of all Ihe skins Ihal }io into Ihe London market from whal is called Ihe " iN'orlh W'esI Catch " — Ihal is the pela{,'ie raleli — Ihe uniform price is consider- ahly less Ihaii Ihe skins of Ihe same animals taken on the island, and Iho reason is Ihal Ihey arc full of shot holes — Ihat is the only dill'erence — except Ihat they are largely the skins of females. That may havesome- Ihinj; lo do wilh il, hut generally the reason given hy the witnesses is that they are full of shot holes, so, Ihat, of tlu; skins that are saved, coinmerce is deprived of Ihe real value of many of th(Mii. Hut I pass over so many of those, ralluM' than weary you with whal, perhaps, is not very material, liiil I want lo say a word further on Ihis siihject in respcci of whi says : I believe lliiil at .suiiii'lime dnrint-' llii' year every seal edines aslmie. 1 here is no reascin In iM'llev(Mlial a eeilaiii imiiil)ei' nl' any elass remain swininiin^' alionl ill llii' nei^lilionrliiKiil i>l' llie islands all Hie sniniiKM' williont laiulln^, allliiiM){h lliero is eiinsiilorablo dilVerence in llie time al wliieli dillerenl classes anive. Now wriliii^ ahonl Mr (irchiiil/ky, Iho nri(ish C.ominissioners say, a( soclion 202 Ihut lio, (irehnilsky. Uiilieves the main ii'ascin ol tlii' landini;', al later dales, id' the seals net aeliially eniia^ed in liicedin^;, is thai dmiiif; the " sheddinn' ' "r " slavey " seascm, their ptda^e hei'iiines tno lliiii In alhinl a siiilahle iiidteclion liom llie water. C.aplain llryanCs les(iinony ciled on hnlli sich's isqnoh'd hy Iho llri- (isii Commissioners, alSe('(ions 7IH and 71'.). Tliey say in Ser(ion "IH. llereriiiii; partieiilarly In liis e.\|ierieiice in IStllt, (laplaiii Itiyaiil writes : " Al tin? cliise of this iieriml thi' iri'eal liody (d' yearliiij; seals iirrive. These, mixiiif.' with the yipiiiif:er elass id' males, s|)read ever llie uplands and ^rreatly increase Hie prn- |iiprliiin id'|irimi' skins, hut also };reatly increase the dillienlly ut liiilin;; |ini|)erly. Up to Ihis lime, Iheru having' heen nn leniales wilh the suuls driven np I'er killing:, it was (inly necessary In dislin|,'iiisli a^rcs; this the diU'eroiioe in size enables them In do very easily. New, Imwcver, nearly one-half are females, and the sli;;ht dif- ference lielwcen lliesi> and the ynniigi'r males renders it necessary fnr Ihi' head man to see eveiy seal killed, and only a strniif,' iiilerest in llie preservation id the stock ran insure the proper care. The meaning of these remarks and Iheir bearing on Ibe possihilily of restrictiiif; the killing; on the islands to males, becomes clear when it is remendii'rud thai the exIiM'iial frenital or(;ans of tlu; male do not become distinctly obvious till alioul the third year of its a;.'e, ^ and particularly so when it is lemcmhered lliat c^ven as Iniijr ai-'n as 187-2-71 the " major portion of the calcji " consisted of two-and three-year- old seals, II while at other limes even yearlin^js have been killed. 'I'his hisl lan};iiayc is Ihc laii!;iiaj;e of Uw. Commissioners. The lirst, waslheir (|ii(ilalion from Captain ilryanl. ■NowMr Coll' says (this is qnoled in the Hrilish Connler Case p. 263). .Now, in openin;: the season, it is customary to secure all Iho 'J-year-olds and upwards possible before the yearlings begin to ti!i up the liaulini;-f.'roniids and mix with the killalile seals. .And, again, he says, as they (iiiole hiiii. And wo closed the seasnn by turning ava.y s;„ poi' ceid, a lad that proves lo every iniparlial mind that we were rediiving tlie yearlings. Now I will refer lo aiiolher piece of evidence hecanse Ihis can be made perfectly clear. An examinulioii of a Table, (one |)nhlished al paj^es '2'.y.\ and 2;j() of Volume li of the Appendix lo Hrilisli Counter case), shows Ihat during, the whole term of Ihe lease of the Alaska Commercial Company, more than half the calches consisled of " .Middling pups", and under. A " middling pup " is Iwo years old. There is also Ihe evidence of Mr Me lulyre and Mr Morgan and others. — -2rM\ — .Now heir ii» in oIImt |iIii(vs — in ||it> lirsl pjaci' IIumi! is no ovid.'nco — Ihi'ic can lie no oviilcnco - no living' man — hocaiiHt! yon cannol Id! in Mil- si'a, wlial a mmI is nnlrss yni can sec Ihiil il in a small one; and i'lnliicr \on cannol I. '11 where il has cdnie I'luni anil where il is noin- i'\ce|il ils I.einj; in II iij;ralion ronle; Ikiw lonj; he has heen al sou anil whelher In; is -oinf; hack af,'ain; ami Ihe lividence of all Ihese per- sons whose particular knowledj;e of seals whose character for truth is I'ar heyond (jucstion, shows thai the yearlings and the two-year-olds, male and teniale, do coniu hack every year in very larf;i' nnnihors. if Ihey do what possihh- warrant is there tor the sn^'^'estion? There is some nnknown friifiment (d' llieni that remain out at sea; and especially ill view of the roqnireinoiils of pdliiif; on shore for Ihe annual sheddin- of llioir hnir. I am reminded, while I remarked that Mr Kllioll. had -iveii lis two erroneous translations, that I have only produced one; and, while it is not of great, consequenee, yet having referred lo il, I should like lo sav this. The llritish Commissioners Iteporl, Section i29, quotes from Klliotfs I'niled States Census lli'porl al page lU, and no ;donht Ihcy quote hiui correctly. They say : — ■i'2l). (la (his |M)iiil,s|)fiikin,i;i>r, nil., ■Illy ilalc in (lie hisdiiy of llii' islaiids, Vciii.v ininor wiKes ; " This npinioii is Iniimleil on llm lact dial ni'ver (exc.!p( ii e year, IS.li, hiiv,. an cxicssive imiiiiIm'I' (.f lemalcs been seen witliual yollliK ; Hial iuws iii>l |.rct,'ii,iii( scaicely ever coaio lo (lie I'libilur Islands; Ihal sucli fenialcs cann.it 1)0 scon I'very year ". Mr Justice Harlan. — Thai is not KllioU's. Mr Phelps. — Ves, il fiinu KllioU's Census lieporl. Mr Justice Harlan. — No. Mr Phelps. — Il is Klioll's quotation from Veniaminof. Mr Justice Harlan. — Vos. Mr Phelps. — Thai is what I mean. It is a quotation from Veniami- nof which he has Iranslaled in Ihe United Stales Census li(«|)((rl al page III, cited hy the Hrilish Commissioners in Section 'r2\). .Now Ihis is the correct traiisllaliou, as certilicd, of thai passage. This ojiinioii is fdnnilod .m the lad thai (except in ono year, ls;)'2) no very groat nunihor of seals has over hooii seen without pups So far it is riglil; Hal it cannot he said thai uiiprognant cows never visit Ww. I'rihilof Islands because such aro seen every year. ' What the author says is exactly opposite. Now there is Ihe evi si^lil ol' Ihc llirfiid of llin ar^iiiiiciil llial I liavc Ihmmi (Miiloavoiiiii; lo piii'siii' for Ihc la>f Iwo days anil !i 'Mill' iiKii'i ho I iiiiil willi wliirli I si;l mil was litis ; lo I'l'din Ihc ('viiit'iicc wlial I say is iiitl incri'h pniM-d — - il is ilciiiinisliiilfil - Ilia! this hiisiiii'ss ol' prhmic scaling leads iicn'ssarily lo Ihc c\l('r'iiiiiiali(iii ul' ili(! seal In lU'oolor llial \\(! have shown thai K\ \wv ccnl oiil is females thai a vci'v hirj;(! |)rii|iorlion. 75 lo H") [lei' ecnl of liio Icmalcs in tlu! Noilh I' ICIlK (•(•can, arc pfc^nai il iind ahoul lo he dclivct'od ; Ihal in Urn lid ii'lnj; Sea an c(|nally larj^c |ii'o|)orlion, ar nation lo which it ap- pertains, and, through the insli'iinicnlalily of Ihal nation, by the world who share in its products, by llie lai'ge nnmbcr of persons, especially in (Ireat Ih'ilain, who share in Ihe industry that arises (jul of its products. Well, is thai all thai lliere is in llie case? Who made these animals? Who put them there, — on Ihe solilmle of Islands adaptable lo no other human |>urpose, thai if Ihis rac(! is exiermiiialed from lln'm, must remain for ever a snliUnie ami des(;lali. i. They present no other resources lo the use, the eiijoymenl, Ihe li.'! llalioii of men. These animals arc harndess: they are not noxious; they do m)l stand in the way of civiliza- tion — nol like Ihe Buffalo wiiose paslurage-groumi being needed for Ihe support of man must give way. a- -o many denizens ol Ihe Held, forest, and siream, which the beu'iiccncc of Ihe Creator has placed there for the earlier advantage and support of man, must give way when the great and rajiid increase of the volume of hmnan life rolls over the spot, and rcduires the ground from which its human inhabitants were first expel. ■ - lh(! Indians, n(»w that its denizens of a lower order likewise should be expelled because il is wauled, that cannot be helped, — il may be regretted. It is to my mind as|)ainful a solitude — I do not know howotliersmay think — il is as painful a solitude to go into the forest, to go along the streams, logo out into llic fields and liiid tlii>in (iestituti,' of llic (Icni/eiis tliat ^ivc llit'in life, Ix'aulyand cMarni.as it svuiild ho to walk tlirouj;ii tlio streets of llerculaiit'iim and Pompeii and lind there a city (all adapted to the lialiilation of men, to the enjoymont, luxury and dclijjht iifnieni as silent as (lief;rave — nothing there hut the dead walls and the empty streets. I say these animals have a right to live , the Almighty put them there, — assigned this territory to them hy making it useless for any other pur|)osc — selling it so far away tiial it does not intei'copt the smallest use or enjoyment of mankind. Why was il? Krom theii' uscfiilncsn if there was not a dollar to he made out of the seal l)usiness, and all eulti- vated nations recognize this. While we have heen discussing this case, a hill has passed through the Knglish I'arliament to protecl, — what? Why, the wild birds Ihat are of no use, only thai they are rare, and they arc harmless, Ihat were heing destroyed by the mere wanton and thoughtless killing of man. Without objection, and with a large |)ublic approval, a bill has passed through the Houses of Parliament to protect animals Ihat are not worth anylhing to mankind, — they are of no use at all. — simply upon the idea that 1 have suggested. The Almighty put them there and lliey belong to the earth. They have a right IVom thai alone ; and il it is true that tin; law that we administer and live under is founded upon Ihc dictates o!' Chris- tianity, it is well to remember that the (Ireat Master thought it not useless to put on recoril the saying thai. or llic two siiiiu'ows thai an' solil in tin' niailii'l placi' IVir a t'arlliinp;, ikiI niic falls to the ;;rnuii(l witlnmt the Kiniwlcdur' of its Ciraliu'. I say if there was nothing else to make tiiis pursuit iid'anious — I cannot call if anything else; I do not desire to call il anvihing else, — Ihis cruel, iidmman, barbarism wliich is working such conse(|ii('Mces to the Ijovernment of the I'ldted Slates — if theri; was nothing else to condemn it, Ilia' alone woidd preveid il in the I'stimation of rational minds — of those who accustomed to refer eiu'h law to ils foiiiidalions — that alone would show thai it never can be a propci' |iart of the freedom of the sea. It is oidy necessary llial a nalion should be so injuriously anil so deeply aUccled, in the trust which iieloiigs lo (liein to, lo ciilillc llicm lo resist this thing to proteit Iheniselves without assuming the censorship of the morals of mankind. |Tho Tribunal then adjourned for a sliorl time;. Mr Phelps. — 1 come now, Sir. lo tlu; only remaining topic upon which 1 shall address the Tribunal, that is the subject of Hcgulalions in case the decision should he such as lo require; IIk; c(Uisi' 'ration of that subject by the Tribunal. I alluded in the beginning of myargunu-nl, to the extraordinary position, as it seems to me, thai (Ircid Itritain occupies np(Ui this subject. ! pointed out to the Tribmud, by reading from letters in the correspondence thai preceded IIks creation of this Tribunal and Ihc — 2250 — making of this Treaty, tiie position lliat (iroat Britain look. I showed, in the first place, that at the very outset of tiie negotiations on the first interview tiiat ever took pkice helwcen Lord Salishury, tlie Britisii minis- ter of Foreign Allairs, and liie United Stales' represenlalivo a convention was agreed upon sulistantialiy and the limits of it you will remember were then agreed upon. I do not know thai [ can give now the latitude and longitude, but you will remember that they were designated on the map — how large they were to the South into the sea and how large Ihey were east and west and that fell Ihroiigh upon the remonstrance of Canada. It was never with- drawn by the British Government. It was never recalled, but it drifted along through correspondence (that I shall not allude (o again) until the United Stales became satisfied and the event showed they were ri>'ht, that it would not be carried into effect. It was suggested that thnt Convention agreed to by Lord Salisbury — the clo.se time being from the lolh April lo the isl November subsequently modified to the i;jtli Oclober — it is sug- gested that Lord Salisbury did not understand that subject. That is quite apart from the consideration that he would not have acted and never did act, and never does act — upon a subject ho docs not understand. After he had heard from Canada officially, and more than one; as the corres- pondence shows, and after the light (hat was Ihrown upon it, not only by the American Government, but the subsequent communications from Bri'-"- :i ci uisers. Lord Salisbury never took the ground thai he would have taken as a frank and honourable man, if it had been true ihat ho liiid been drawn into an agreement in ignorance of materinl lads. Ho ne\cr assumed thai, lie never put himself on thiit ground. All the way through the last communication from Lord Salisbury on that subjeci to tiie American Government and to Ihe American Minister, both orally and iii writing, was this : — " We hope to carry the convention into eirocl. It will take time, but wo hope to do it. " Then I poinled out further, and you will oxcuse me alluding to this, as a foundation of what 1 am going (o say vviUi^nl reading it again in support of it, that from Ihat lime forward in all the n golialions under President Harrisons' Aduiinislralion, when >'• riiiun -.as Secretary of Slate, Ihe language of (he British Govornmenl was lih/i'Miii oviM- and over again. — " We are ready lo do anylhing that is ncces^. ry '', . ij,e preservation of the fur-seal. We deny vour right to protect yoiusoif We think that infringes on our rights, that we do not consent to; but when you conn to talk about a Convention for the pre- servation of the seal, we will do anything that is necessary. " I pointed onl further, with llio exception of a very guarded passage in one letter in which Lord Salisbury suggested, in regard (o the state- ment of these points by iMr Blaine, there might be two sides to that, there was evidence on Hk; other side, and it was not agreed to by r uiada, -- some very guarded statement that did not commit him or his (,.. ,; menl, — with Ihat exception he never challenged anylhing that Mr i.ayaru said in that communication sent to the British (iovernnient •'s:> — 2260 — oii'ilining the Convention thai was necessary, and wliicli was, as 1 have before informed you, reprinted and spread abroad in wiiicb all these asser- tions that we make now as to the character and consequence of |)clagic sealing were all set forth. He never undertook to defend it, or to deny its consequences or results, except only in one guarded passage lliat I formerly read. So that the record of the British Govcrnnient is perfectly clear up to the time of this hearing, and the record is perfectly clear now, because what has been said here is no part of the diplomatic record of the country or the Foreign Oflice. — up lo the lime of the commencement of this hearing, dreal IJrilain, in every word thai was said, has been at one with us on the suhjccl of (he preservation of lliis r'acc and is liie aulhor of this Commission l)y whicli the measures necessary for the preservation of the fur-seal were to be ascertained; and in one passage as you will remember, the language used sub'^tantially was, " without reference to tlie interests of an !. niy " I simidd say further that when tiiey sent out these Commissioners i' led irienils have relied as an evidence of the good faith — perhaps i .id not say good failh. but in reference to the object in view of the Cummissioncrs, upon these instructions. Tlio main objoct of your inquiry will be lo ascnilain, " Wbat inteinational arran- gfinionts, if any, are neci'ssary bi'lwocii Oroat Hiilain and tliii United Slates, and Itussia or any oilier Power, for Ibe purpose olpreserviMj; tlie I'lir-seal race in Bebriny Sea from extermination ? " As to the appointment of that Commission, however let me refer, as I have bul very little lo road on lliis braiicii of liic case, I iiopo, from corres- pondence, lo Mr lUaines' iellcr of February the Kith, \8\)2. It is in the tirst American Appendix, page 318, lo Sir Julian I'aunce- fole, after the Commissioners had been appointed on both sides. Sir, I am in nneipt of ymir note of Ibis ilale. in wbieb you ii--, ■ nin Ibe oflieial noliliealion of the appoiutmenl of Sir (jeorL'i^ liaden-Powell and Professor Dawson, as (ionimissioners on the part of Ibe Hrilisb (lovernnienl on Ibe joint Commission created in \iew of tbe propused liir-seal Arliilration. In ackudwledginj; your note 1 di'eni it iinpiirtani to (lirecl y(nii' aPenlion lo llio fad thai Ibe f,'overnmenl of llu; Uniled Stales, in noniinalini;' tbe Comniissiiuicrs on its part, seleeled ftenllemen who weie especially tilled by their seienlillc allainmenis, and who ^ve^o in nowise di-(|ualilie(l IViran iniparlial iuvesti^'alion and determinaliou of Ibe i|ue>ti(ins lo be subinillecl In Ihnn by a public declaraliiui of opinion previous or subsecpient b) tbeir seleciidn. II is lo be rcHreHed that a similar course does not seem to have been adopled by Ibe Ilritisb ('niverninenl. II appears fnun a doeunient wliieh you Iransmitlod lo nn;, utider dale (if .Vareli H, ISIKI ^inclosure 1), thai one of the ),'onllemon seleclcd by your goveriiraont to act as (Commissioners on its part lias fully committed himself in advance on all Hie (piestions which ari> to be sub- mitted to him for inve-tiualioii and decisi'iii. I am fiirlher iiiturriied that Ibe olber geiillenian nameil in yournole had previous lo this seleeliuii niaile public his vii'ws mi Ibe ^ul)jeet, and liiat vi^ry ree>nlly be has announced in an address lo his Parliameiilary ronsliluoiils tliat the lesull of Ibe investifjalion of this (lommi'-sioii and Ihe proposed Arbitration wmild hi; in favor of his (Joverniiienl. I trust, howevei', Ibiil tbi'se cireuiiislariees will ncit impair the candid and impar. tial inveslifc'alioii and delorminalion which was the object bad in view in tbe cri'a- — -i-un — lion of llio Commission, an lo tins iminl niul wiiic h llussia, Great Mritaiii, Krance, ;iii(i as far as I Imiow every oilier civilized Conntrv has always conlendcd lor sueeessfiillv that if a sliip is'lVmnil infriiiffiog the Treaty - that if a ship is found intrin.i;inf< the convention hy llio nationals of anuther country it shall be handed over fur justiee to the courts of its own Hag. That is accordinj? lo (he terms of the Hiissian Convention. The President. — We remember that perfectly. Mr Phelps. — Timt is another lliing and if my learned friends did not go so far as I understood them to go, then I inisnderstood them and I do not care to press Hie qiieslion any furthci'. Is it not apparent, the lirst thing (he 'IVibunal has to do if tliev ap- proach Ibis fpiestion of Itcgulations is lo determine which of two theories will be adopted — whelher the ll.eor'v which is laid down in the language of the treaty wliicli is transparent in every step of the correspondence which appears in the inslructions written by Ihe lirilish Government to their Commissioners which is repeated over and over again all Ihe way through, lo do whatever is necessary — that is for the preservation of tlu; fur-seal — not necessarily whal the (^niled Slates says is necessary but what is found lo be necessary, or nn the other hand whether you are going to adopt Uegulations that do not go so far as is necessary to" preserve the seal, hut go in that direction as far as you can consistcnily wilh at the same lime the preservation of this pelagic sealing which as J have proved lo you I Ihinlv I may say is itself necessarily extermination. !n other words you will go so far in adopling Hegulalions for the pre- servaliou of Ihe fur seal as you can go consislenlly with the iireservalion oflheir exlerminalion. That is contradictory in terms if we are ri-lit about this. If Ihe one llieory is lo be adopled why that is one lliing. Then we are lo in<[uire really what is fairly reasonably necessary U) preserve this ra.'e. Thai is Ihe iiKpiiry. If 'the olher theory is neces- sary what can you do lo retard ils extermination consistently with preserving the right of extermination? In the one case you j. reserve Ihe fur-seal; in the other case you are postponing by a few years its deslruction. In what I have said, perhaps at the I'isk of being lliouglil lo have said too much about this antecedent point, I have desired lo bring out clearlv what the (lovermnents proposed to each (dlier. and wlial they did, and, linally, without going back — lliere is no ambiguity— when vou go back to the correspondence, as we tried to in the case of these pu/./iiiig liussian — '2200 — Treaties, lo nseerliiiii wliiil llio Treuly uioaiil, il vnus hecuuse llie luiigii!if;e was aiiil)i{^iioiis — you iniist rosorl lo siirroiindiiif^ langiiajjo lo ascertain Nvlial tlio words moan. Tlicre is no anil)iniiily Iioin!. If llicre is any anil»iguity in llie provioiis correspondonco il is cleared iq) \vli(!n you eonie lo tlie Treaty itself. Let nw remind you of tliis often read lanf;ua};e. irtlii; (IcIfiriniiiiiUon ol'llii; lorcgoiii}.' qiiostions !i;< lo llii- oxcliisive jurisdiclinn oltlio Ijiitcd Sliilos sliiill Icavollin suljjcrt in siicti ii position tliiil llio concuricnco ol'dual Uiilain is nccPssaiT lo llio eslablislimcnl ot'rcfriilalions lor llio proper pro- li'Clion ami piosfi'valiou of tlie liir-si'al in or liabilually iivsorling lo Bctirin),' Sea, llic Arbitrulors sliall tln-n ili'lcrniiiiu wliat concurri'ul r('j,'ulalions oiitsicl(5 (liu juris- (liclionat liniils of llie respoclivc (iovcninioiils are iiocossary. Necessary for wliat? Tlie previous language sliows : Thn proper protection and preservation of the fur-seal in or lialiilually resorting lo llie Belirin;,' Sea. Tiiere is no aml)iguily, hut if you went baciv — if I \vero to stop here and review all lliis correspondence il would turn out, as I have said, to i)e on the face of the proceedings — all through we are willing to do all that is necessai'v. We do not desire lo injure the United States; we should regret lo he instrumental in inllicling any injury; we arc willing lo join and will send a Commission lo lind out and aid you in determining, lo avoid the dis<'ussion of this proposal of Mr Bayard in which he laid down his oiilline, and lo avoid the discussion of the propriety of the very con- vention we entered into, and which, on the face of it, as IIk; thing then stood, and the knowledge of the suhjecl then existed met the retjuire- ments complelidy, (d' the necessai'y presci'vation of the fur-seal, and if il is foimd now, hroad as those limits were, they are nolciuite broad enough, il is l)ecause the investigations since have enlarged the knowledge of the subject, and havt; made it apparent thai the parties were not doing what Ihey Ihought they wen; doing even in thai Convention — it runs so far beyond what is proposed on the other side. .\ow assume, and 1 shall decline lo discuss this case on any other theory — ifl were advised by llie Tribunal they had reached the point that my learned friimd, Mr liobinson, particularly insisted upon, thai you cannot go as far as is in.'cessary lo preserve the seal — that you may regulate the provision with regard to destroying him, but you must not prohihil it — thai was his answer lo a question of one of llio arhitrators, and a v :\ pertinent (lueslion il was — while lie was discussing il Mr Justice Harlan said, " Do you mean, .Mr Uohinson, thai if il is necessary to prohihil pelagic sealing, in order to prescrvi^ the seals, that we are not lo do il, Ihal we have not Ihe power to do il? " That was llic question " certainly", said my learned friend, you may regulate but not prohibit. Hcgulato what? Hegulalc what you have found to be the destruclion because if il is not the destruction, you do not want lo prohihil it. There is no pro- priety in |)roliihiliiig il unless il is destruclion, bul when you gel thus far in your destruclion, and are able lo say, Why the prohibition of Ibis seal- — 'J2ti7 — liiiK is iiwcssnry, — hcniiisi' it is iiot:cssary destruction — now sii\s Mr Hobinsou that you may roj,'uliito the dostrurtion but you ciuinot stop it in (ho Ifi'ms of this Treaty. Why it stultifies tiio Tribunal. II si;ts tho Tribunal iindor a commission that nominally, at least, invests lliem with valuable powers, and it places them under the ncicessily ol'saviiif;-, " We are asked to protect the lur-seal; the nations have agreed that il shoulil be protect(!d ; we ha'" found out wliat is necessary lo protect it, hut cannot do the very Ihiu;; and the only tliinf^ for which Ibis Tribunal was consti- Inted, in the event il should come to the conclusion any regulations were necessary in the case, because the couutrv could not protect itself. " Then they talk — and I do not know how far they mean to press Ibis point — ai)outcondilions as to llegidations — and I am now lalkiiig ge- nerally — I will come to the two classes specifically as shortly as I can they talk about them Iw'ing condilional, about our stopping killing on the Islands. Is the Tribunal invt!sted with any jiower lo enter on the United States territory and prescribe whal they shall do on their own soil? Certainly nol. Is Ibere any ni;cessily for it? Certainly nol. Thev are engaged as earnestly as lliey ean l)e in preserving Iho .seal. If Ihey have mad(! any mistakes, they will correct them of course, when it transpires that they need correction ; but they say, though you cannot make liegu- lalions to bind thel'nilcd Stat(!s in the administration of their own pro- (lerly in Iheir own jurisdiction, when thci'e is no (pieslion of Iheir I'ight, when the concurrcMice of (ircat lirilain is necessary, it is only when the concurrence of (ireal lirilain is necessary, that the Tribunal is to provide liegulalions. It is not in respect of the adminislralion i)y the (lovcrn- nienl on theii' own territory of its own imsiness for which the concur- rence of Cireal liriliiin is necessary. Vou may niak(> il a condition thus doing indirectly what you cannot do directly. WhiiJ, a proposition that is to a Tribunal of the dislin(dion and character of Ibis Tribunal! What a proposition il is to any Tribunal, however humble and inferior il might be, if charged wilii dciding wilh this subject at all, lo invite it (o go and do by imiireclion what il conceives il cannot do directly. Then a few words, and bul a few words on lluMpieslion ofwhelherthe aullu)rity of the Tribunal t!\tonds to promulgating llcgidalions thai shall take effect outside the Webring Sea. I do nol think Ihal lliat is seriousK claimed by llu- other side. I understand m\ learned friend, Sir llichard Websler to have not only agreed, bul lo liave proposed a negulalion which he Ibouglil would be adeijuale to protect in Ihc .North I'acilic (Icean pregnant fcnudes on Iheir way there. I do not think I am jiistilied in sav- ing thai he really and seriously contended Ihal the authorily of I he Tri- l)unal is limited lo Ihc Hehring Sea itself, bul a reference, again lo llie language of the Treaty sets that right very clearly, because Ihe language is : " The .Vrbitrators shall then determine what concurrent liegulalions oidsid(! Ibe jurisdielional limits of the respective (iovernments are ne- cessary and over what waters such liegulalions should (extend. If there could be any doubt, why a reference to some of the many declarations on 2R6 lliis siilijiM'l ill lli(> jiifvidiK <'(ii'i'('s|)i>nilcii<'i^ would >(■! il (|iiil(^ ill rcsl. \\ lii'ii llii-i si\lli sccliiiii was lii'sl. priticclcd or when llic Trisilv licfiiiii lo laKi' loi'iii us I'arlv as llccidiihiT, IH'.KI, Hie si\lli tjiicslioii was |)r(i|io- s('(l ill Ihis wa\ . Mr Justice Harlan. — II is al pap' liHd ol' Voliiiiu' I of llic I iiilcil Slalcs'Casc. Mr Phelps. — Vcs. If llii^ ili'li'iiiilnnlloii ol' tilt) l'or(>^:>iJn;.' (|iii'slioiis shall Iimvi' tlm snhjcci in siuli a liosllioii llial (he I'oiiciii'n'iici; of (Ileal lliilahi is luicfssary i" picsi riliiii^,' lli'f;iil.i- liims Inr llii' killiiif; ol' Ilic fiip-scal in aii\ pari ol' llu^ walrrs nl' jtclninn- Si'a, Ihrii il shall lie I'm llwrilrlcniiiiKMl ; (I) How far, il'al all. oaUiilr llii' onlinary li'i'iilo- lial liinils il i^^ tipccssary Ihal llio laiili'd Slali's >hoiild i'MmtIsc an i'Xi-lii>i\(' jnii>- dii'liiiii in >>rdi'i' lo ih'oIci'I IIic simI I'di' llu' liiiii' Ii\ iii}; a|inn lli(< l>lan(ls of IIk^ Unil- 0(1 Slates and fci'dinn lliiMifioin .' ;•.') Wlu'lhci- a cluscd xason (dniiiif; wliirh Ihc kiiUiiiiof -cats in Mil' wati'is nf Hcliiin^'s Sini oalsiilc Ihc ordiiiaiy Iriiildiiai liiniN sli.ill lie [iridilliitcth is !i('idii'iiii;Seaaiul Ihc Norlli I'aeilic Ocean. There ai'e I he in si rind ions issued on ho III sides lo llndr i'es|)ec|i\e ('.oiiiiiiissioncrs. and Ihal appears a^ain lliroiii;li Ihis cori'espondcncc lo an c\lt;nl whi( ii woiiiii he onl\ wearis{unc lo rcil(M'al((. Al pap! ;}!.■) (d' Ihc Isl I'nilcd Slalcs' Appendix, Sir .luiian I'aunce- folcwrilesa lellcr lo Mr Wharlon id' .lime llic Mill INDI, and he sa\s : NVs. tor Morgan. — Tliciv wiis ii v\uu\'^v of lanpiafic us i| sithis Io inc. les Mr Phelps Vcs, as in all (li|iiiinialii' cnrrcsiinndi'nci'. when pari •M'l"'"'i'li III" p.mil (.r aurccnioiit liii'iv is -radnallv. on Im>||i sides, a """lil''':ili<"i iirilii'lan},'iian(!. Thcianfjnan.MsmnriMMidiimsiy cnipiuNcd. In ih.'carliorparl i( is vaf.'iic and iMconcliisivc, Iml as von appmarh (he lorininalidii so il licconn's nariuwcd diiwn. Senator Morgan. - Hal (i Iian-c was, as il sccnis Io nic, IV.ini llw licsl nicllmd n\' Kiiiin- llii> seals, Io IIm' I.csI nielliod of prescrviii},' llicni. Mr Phelps. — >(>s. il ca down Io Ihal. so llial \(Mi have llic spccilic af;T(M«mi'nl llial Ihcsc mcasiiivs wimv (o I'lnhracc liolli parls n[ Ihi' .Norlli I'acilii' Orcan, and iiislniflimis \s,'iv. i^ivcn Io Ihc r,oinniissi(Mi('rs on liolli sidi's how lar inio llii; .Norlli I'acilic (t,van il was niMiessarv Io -o, ami in Hit' n.'\l place \on have llie delinilc laa-na-e of llie Tn>al\ I'l IVoni andii- i:nil\ whicli -ixes llie jiirisdiclion Io lli(> ■|'rilinnal Io ^o iiilo il Io IJial e\lenl: and in Ilic lonrlli place yai lia\e il conceded |)\ ni\ learned IViends il \om do nol -o inIo llie .Ndrlji j'acilic Ocean \oii do iiol answer the purpose Ihal llie f ioNcninienls had in view, and llieii caiinol I'lillil Hie onI\ dnl\ willi wjiich llie Trihimal is eiiarf^cd. .Now whal have we losay ahoiil Ihis geiieralK . ahoiil these re-n ilioiis, hd'ore coniini- Io compare Ihe hv„ (h'alls. II is Ihal lliey caniiol he lem- purary. The llieory of Ihe Trealy, and Ihe nccessih jnd^menl of Ihis Trihmial, hecaiise Ihe lirilish (iovernmenl is al liherlv Io adopi Iheiii if il please, wilhiii llieir own jiirisdiclion, and liiis Trihmial could nol preveni il. They say iel iis have lii(« vessels license... Thai is an all'air of Iheir own. We do nol care whelhec Iliey are licensed or nol. Then Ihey say, lei il carry a parlicnlar lla-. We donol care ahoul Ihal. Thai docs nol concern iis al all. They could carry any Ihi'; Ihey liked, siih- jecl Io Ihe laws of Iheir own coimlry. Then Ihey say, Iel Iheiii Keep a Io-. Whal is IhaUvorlh. (tiii\ Ihis, Ihal when we.liai-e a vessel wilh haviii- Iraiis-ressed any rei;iilali(ms Ihe Io- would show Ihey jiad nol. Voii wonhl nol liiid a siialer comiiij; iiilo Coiiii wilh a loi; showing he had broken llie reiiiilalions. They are pallry, I say, in Iheir Hegulalions, and if Ihev allach anv — '.>-J7(l — irii|iorhiiii(' III Ihcni, llic) ;iii' (|uitr al lihcrly In a(lo|(l llioni, bocausi; liioy arc lt('fiiilali(iii< we iu'\rr ohjcHili'd lo or askcul lot' ; iioi" can llicy do us any liai'iii. Miir can llic\ ili> ii> an\ good; llicrd'orc Ihcy may \w dismissed. Unl wliiil iii'c llic |{('y,nlalions as piil I'orlli llu;orolically lo save llic seals. Tlic\ arc Iwn : — a /.one of 20 miles round the I'ribilof Islands and a close sijason i^xlcndinf; I'rom Ihc lolli So|il(Mnl)or, al'lcr cvei-y seal is out 1)1' llie sea round lo llie I si July, which is llu; eai'liesl dale al which llic\ come hack ai;ain. Those are the Iwo provisions Ihat are i-eally sel I'orlh hy m\ learneil friends as an answer lo Iheenciuiry suf!;g;csted lo Hie Ti'ihunal hy Ihese Iwo nalions, whal is ncu'essary lo he done for llie pro- loclion (if Ihc seal. Now Iclussec e\ac(l\ wlicre lliose Iwo will come oid ; I exauiine theirs liisl. hecaiisc in siiowing Ihe uller fnlililv of Ihem, Ihat they ar(! uol worlh llie |iapcr on which Ihcy were wrillen, llial we do nol ask for any such Ihinj; as liial, if wc cannol fid any mure, Ihey would i)e hula mockery — keepiuj; the word of promise lo Ihe ear and hreakiu}; il lo the heart. iNow Ihey say in laufjua^e and in one of these ilejjulalions — al leasl, Sir llichard W'eiisler says in his arijnmiMil, you uuisl keep Ihe vessels at honie and not pei-mil Ihem lo sel oul till Ihe I si May. Whs'.' Itecause he arjiues and supposes — I am hound lo [)resuine so, especially if he has Udl hioked into Ihe sorl of evidence 1 am '^inw^ to call yoiu' allenlion lo — If you ke(!p Iht^ vessels al Iheir ports lill the 1st May. Ihey will ju.t calch Ihe mi;:;ralion of the seals in time to destroy Ihe prcfinanl females, except perhaps in llu^ case of sleam vessels which oould more I'upidly overlake Ihc miiii'alion of (lu! herd. They would he safe from its pursuit ifllu^y do not sel (lut lill Ma\, ami selliu}; out in May, linn will havi; the pleasure of chasini; across \\n'. sea a llii;hl of animals Ihal is so far ahead (if Ihem Ihcy cannol possiitU ovci'lake Ihem. Then whal are Ihey iioiug lo do wilh Ihcm^clves if llie\ lanuid culcr the Ihdu'ing S(-a lill Ihe Isl .luU which is as early as is any use. Mow are Ihev going lo spend llie months of Max and .lime, being al sea in piirsuil of a hodv ol' seals that they cannol catch, and excluded from liehriiig Sea lill Ihe Isl .Inly. II is no use, if Ihey gel in llmre unless \ou could iiilercepi Ihe pregiiani females bclweeu llu; Meuliaii Chain and the Islands. Whal is llu' seiis(,- of the scalers doing Ihal we do iiol learn from iiiv learned friend. Now I will askdeneral I'osler lo be kind enough lo poiiil oul this on llii> map. I,el us see whal lime llic\ arrive al Ihe I'ribilof Islands. The teslimony does nol dilfer and Ihe C.oniinissioiiers do iiol diiVer. The I'niled Stales Commissioners say Ihal Ihe old hricding males begin to arrive on the Islands the last week in April and h\ .lime Ihc ;2(ilh Ihcy are all located. The lirilisb Commissioners say Ihe same Ihiiig. The I'liiled Slales Commissioners say Ihe haclndor seals begin lo arrive early ill May and large numbers arc on Ihe hauling groniul li\ Ihc end ol' May or lirsl wei'k in .liine. The l!iili>h Co'iimi-^-iioncrs sa\ wilh Ihe main body of llie full grown bulls, a large proporliim of Ihe haelielors or younger — •.'■J71 — males also it|>|ioai'. In riirliii'c jiroor upon lliis poini an rvaminalion of the lal>lc of killings iVom IH'.KI lo I881) r nnniiier of years on or '>efore .May Uie 20th and by June the IMIli laiyc ninnheis of liachelois ,ad already been taken. NoN\ the Uiiiled Slates Commissioners say the cows l)cLi;in to airive early in Jnne, hnl in iniini'ns(! nnnihers helween Ihe niiddle and end of the month and the harcinisai'e loniph-le early in JnK. The ttritisli (Commissioners sav a few ;.;i'avid femaieM nsn;illv land as early as the Isl .lune i)nt it is under normal I'ircunislanees helween the middle of Jnne and the middle of July that the jj,real hody of the females come ashore. All the diU'ercnce is thai the AnKa'ican (lonmiissii.ners sav Ihe harems are completed (>ai'ly in Jid\, and llie I'lrilisli (i(numissioMers sav helw(;en the nnddle ol July ; Ihe din'ei'enco is very slitiht. There is a j^ood deal of testimony also ahoni Ihe seals swinunin;;- more rapidly Ihun any lish and that they usually (ravel 'IW miles in one dav. This is conlinned hy lise Canadian fisheries !ie|)orls, Theliritish Coniinissioners slale that in the latteiparl of Jnne or about July 1st, the female seals in pup vvhieh havi- entered l!ehrin;ji;Se.i an; found oidy makinj;- their N\a\ ra|)idl\ and direclty to Ihe breeding Ishuids. .\'ow iiefore alluding lu a j^ood iid> ,d wliicli llu-ir calchcs were made, and, in Ihe cas- of, nH)-^! of Ihem, no| all, llic nunilii c of Ihe calch. i\ow, to Ihisi^ I'.) vessels, of which we have an exaci rerord, I will ask Ihe al'enlion of the Tribimal while deneral hosier poiiiis llnin out. Ihe I'tiilir'iiiii. \o I, was olVSilkaon Ihe ilhdav of >hiv Sir Charles Russell. — The latitude ami loni;ilude were -i\eii in Ihe loj;. Mas thai been verilied .' Mr Phelps. — \es; Ihis has been verilied exactly. We liii-ic |oll,,«,.d the l;dihidi';'ml lim^ilude and Ihe course I o know where (hi\ sindi'd from ami where lhc\ wenl. J'liis / 'lul'inin slarled on Ihe i!li l''ehruar\ ; on Ihe itliof May, she was olVSilki: on Ihe :i(Hh of May. she was siadln\c.-| of Middlclon Island; iind, on llic Killi olMuni;, she wasoiisl, oil the centre ol' Kiidiak Island. Tlieiv is the course oT liial vessel from February to April. General Foster. — She went out in Kebruary, and sealed lliroiip;liont llie season. Mr Phelps. — Thai is Ihe way she ranio. From JMihriiary lo .April, she look '2\U> seals. General Foster. — .\s the loj,' shows. Mr Phelps. — in May and Jnnc, 555 seals. So Ihal oul of a ealeh of 8,') I, 5.").') were laken belween ihe localities wliieli have been pointed out. Silka and Kadiak. Mr Justice Harlan. — Where is Ihe second point? General Foster. — T/n-r/'. \]'n'mt}ni/ it niii.\ Theplacr where Ihe ex- chaniic is made in IS'.I2 was I'orl Kiches, which \<. iherc. ' liia\ . On Ihe l.'ilh .lune she was oil' Vakutat Hay. I do noUind Ihe ainouul olhei-calcli lii'i'e. General Foster. — We uniy put down lliecalch of those cn}i;aged diir- int; the whol(> season. Iiei;inuin,i; iii.lauuary or {''ebruary. Mr Phelps. — .Now lake Ihe Maud S. On Ihc I si .May she was off Sitka: on llie IJIsI May she was sonth-westofYakulat Hay, on the I Mlh. lune. she was sonlh-eiisl of Marmot Ulaml. Now from I'eliuary lo .Vpi'il, as siiown h\ liei' loj; she look :(IV) seals. In .Ma\ and .iuiie she look (lilt. Sir Charles Russell. — Where do you j^el the ligures IW;.! .' Mr Phelps. — I'rom Ihe lojioi'lhe vessel. General Foster. — The lijiure is laken of each di'>s' capture ol' seals. Mr Phelps. — .Now lake .No 'i llie A^ues Mc Uciald, on the 1st .Ma\ olV Queen Cliarlotlc Sound. on the.'ioih .Ma\ oil' Vakutat Hay, on the liitli .lunc (dr Cape Clear. There is where thai vessel spent .Ma\ and hall' of Juno. The catch is not jiiven. General Foster. — She was not eufiaged in Ihe early pari of the season. Mr Phelps. — The entire catch is !;iven. hut we cannot tell which was taken helorc .Ma\ and al'icr June. The President. — There was a good deal in July and August; is that in Hcliriug Sea'.' General Foster. - Yes. Sir Charles Russell. — This was the \ear o{ mmli/s vivnidi. General Foster. — 11 was on Ihe Cominainler Islands. Mr Phelps. - \\ewill>how Ihal on another map. Now No. ."> llie Ariri'is (in Ihe ITlh of ,Mav was oil' lev Ha\ ; on Hk- liOlh Ma\ oll'Cape Clear: on June |:tlh olVShuniagiu Island — Ihal was lier course. Now No t'». the llrii/riir, on Ihe Isl .Ma\ she was oil' soidh part of (Jueen (.liarlolte Island; on the Mdlli .Ma\ oil Cape St. Llias. On the I .if llie licli wiis — 'i'2r,\ — lolh .liinn sli.. NViis olV Cape Clciir. Now lluil vossH look from .li.iuiiiry to April inclusive :>l«) seals. In llic monllis of May and June she look i.'ik Now .\" 7 is (he Sr/pp/iiir. May I olV I'linee of Wales Fslaud. May ;{(l, oils. \V. Cape Si. Klias. Juno II, oIlMiddlelon Island. Now N" H is I.'k' /; . /}. jMarviii. .May I , S. W. Silka. May, 30, S. W. Vaknial May. June *). S. W. Middlolon Island. iNow Ihal vessel from Januarv li. .April l<)(,k (111 seals, in (lie inonllis oI'May and June she loiik t(tl2. Now N" Ihe^ Vira. .May I , .,ir S. W. Vakulal Hay. May oil, oil Cape Si. Klias. June 20, od'Middld.in Island. Thai ve.ssel IVoni Tehruary In April inclusive look SSI seals. In May and June she look '.)S;i. (If course on Ihe coasi Ihal she was al. Now N" 10 is Ihe.l. li. I'mnt. .Mas I, ollS. (Jueen Charlo'lle Island. May .'ill, oil Vakulal May. June 17, onCajje Clear S. W. Thai vesscd look from IVhruary lo April inclusive -j:}'.! seals and Ihe months of .Ma\ and Juiu' '.Vi:\ seals. NowN" II is Ihe ^.r. Mnun: May I, oif (lape Mn/eu, !>. Wales Island. Ma\ 20. oir Middlelon Island. Junes, oir I'orlloek l!ank, S. W. r. Wales) ("ape .M;i/on. May :{0, oir ^aknlal Hay. June 2S, off S.E. I'orlloek Hank. Now N" i;i is Ihe Anio/m. May (1, off ceiiiro Oueen Cliarlollc Islainl. May .id, ,, IV Icy Hay. June 17, oir K. (d Cape Kli/ahelh. Thai vessel took Iron) Tehruarv lo April inclusive, lu seals; and in Ihe months of .May and June (ll.S seals. Now Ihe I ilh is Ihe Mcnminl. Max I . olf IHnou ladranee. Ma\ 2(i, oirCiipeSl. I'llias. And that is all Ihe eours(> Ihal is ■;i\<-n of \\vy. No" III,' i;ilh is Ihe Tnnuipli. Ma\ 27. olV Middlelon Island. Mity :!l, olfK. ofl'orllo,:k Hank, ■li""' "». olfN. ofl'orllock Hank Now Ihe lOth is Ihe Thhlh'. .May 1, „n' S. Clav.piol Sound. _ There she was on Ihe 1st of May. She slarlcl, verv neariv, from Viclorin. May .id, olf S. W. of >,,kulal Hay. June 27, 200 miles S. Middlelon Is- land. — !2'J74 — \o\v Ihiil vossfl look tVoni I'obniary to April inclusivo I iH seals; and ill llic iiKiiillis III' May and .liino '2'X], making I'll si^uls. .Now llio ITlJi isllR'T. //. Titp/xr. Ma\ I. oiV Siiku. Ma\ :n. idr.Middlidon Island. June |ti, oil' Cajie Kli/aholli. Silt- ioiik, IVom Fobrnary lo April Wi seals; and in llio inonllis of May and .luno TSU seals. .Now Hie IHIh is llie ('. />. Ho/k/. .May C, olV Milbank Sound, S. ol' Q. Cli. Isd. May 3(1, oil' Vakulal Hay, \V. .lime !;■), oil' I'ortloek Hank. K. Slie look Troni l''obriiaiy lo April 12 seals; and in llieinonlbs of .May and .liiiie ."i^S seals. Now llie I'.MIi, and llie lasl is llic Vntwonvcr Itrllc. May I, oHTdiris- lian Sound. May .'{0. S Port- lock Hank. ,lunc 3, oir S. K. (".apeKlisabidli. Thai vessel look Troin l'"ebrnary lo .\pi'il()() seals: and in the inoullis of May and .liiiie -JTU. Thai is all. Mr Justice Harlan. — Ho I hose liijnres, Mr IMieljis, embrace any raleli in lli(> spriiif; or in ,111110 of the year by vessels that were nol Itrilisli vessels'.' Mr Phelps. — Those are all Canadian Vessels, Mr Justice Harlan. — I know. Were llien> any calebes by oilier vessels? Mr Phelps. — I am eomiiii; lo Ihal ; lliese are only I',) vessels. The reason why tbey are i;iveii is because we liappiHi lo have the loji;s. Hut I \\\m\ lo point oiil one more Ihiiij; on Ihal. Voii will see the iiel-work made b\ Hie conises of I hose vessels. I will ask (ieneral Foster lo kiiully |ioir.l out liiat red mark. General Foster. I'oinliiii; on the map;. The black line indicales thei(uii'S(^ of llie vessel in May. The nnl line (as far as it can be distin- f^nished I'i'om llie black 1 indicales I he course of each vessels in June. Tho i'lint;uisliable, — having regard lo every cbauf;(' of course, if — 2-n:i — you indiciilcd llio area covered hy llie lillle boats in this way, — 10 iiiili-s ill every direrlion — you will poini thai sea all over red. [Now, you have lo hear in mind (lial Iheseare hiil a small pari of Ihc sealinf; Heel. The eiilire niimher of Ihe vessels is f,nven as 117. T/iis- represents l'.» vessels. Mr Carter. — We have the loji;s imly ol' these l<.» vessels. Mr Phelps. — Yes ; that is all thai we have the lo};s of. Now, suppose, Sir, Ihat we had the lo};saiid weie to take the pains of adding the courses and localities of the balance of these 1 1(> vessels, that is to say 'M more; we have {jiven lU, — suppose we marked thai map otV with the courses of the 'J7 more, it is plain and perfectly apparent that the whole sea would he covered with such a network that it would be iiidistiiif^iiisiiable. ^oii would requin; a niaf^niliyiiif,' f!,lass even upon such a lar;,'e map as that to follow Ihe line of vessels; and when you add lo that the area co- vered by the small boats of the vessel, why the entire sea is covered; and 1 should like lo know what chance the female seals would have of escap- iu'^'! That tlK-y hav(! escaped in past years h) some c\l("nt is because (here were fewer vessels. With the whole 11(1, and as many mon; as may be en};af;ed in this hereafter, you would have the map. showiiif; the courses so blolled and covered as lo be undistinf^uishable. Von see what the (lestriiclion in tlui months of May and .June is in the North I'acilic. Ocean; and you sec so far from my friend Sir lUeluird Webster bein^; cor- rect in what \\('. uiidoublcdly supposed or he would not have said so — what h(! undoublcuUy supi)osed was a sufllcient protection of Ihe fji'iivid females — thai these vessels would i)e all the lime behind llii! herd and only en- piRcd in pickin;; of such holliischickies as were behind the female seals. WIkmi you come lo look at the evidence on both sides as lo the arrival of Ihc lioliuscliii'kics you will lind they are vijry little Ix^bind the olhers. When you come lo look, as we did yesterday, at the amount of the calch you lind Ihev are H'i percent females thereat least. So that (jicso vessels could have no object in bein;^ out (here in the iiionlh ol .luiie to pursue Ihat lillle remnani of the holluschickies which would j;iv(! Ihem just about l.'i per ceiil of what they hitherto made, and //msf, small and young seids and less valuabh^ skins. You see from IIk; necessary r(!sull, if we did not ^'o any further, — if Ibis was all Ihe evidence in Ihe case, yon see that from the necessities of Ihe case you caniiol prolei'l these gravid females by any such provision as my IiMiriKMl friend Sir lliehard W(;l)ster suggests — that is, lo keep your vessels back lill the Isl .May. They are not inside the Aleulian islands until late in .June or in Ihe course of .lime. .At it is, there Ihev are from very nearly llio these h)g books for the year 181)2 show that Hks scalers carried along in front of the north-west coast any lime later than Ihe end of .June? Mr Phelps. — They do not. 2«7 — -i-iHi -- General Foster. — IH ortluMii closetl llieir soaliiif; sunson on or heforo llic lOtli .liinu; ;) one the I7lli .liiiio;'2 on lliu I7lli Jiiiio ami '.i bulwoeii Iho 2(l|li aiul iDlli. The President. — Tliuir sealing season along llie norlli-wesl eoasl you mean? Mr Phelps. — Yes. The President. — They went on furl her. You admit they went on to the C.oninianiier Ishintis? Mr Phelps. — 1 was ahoul to stale Ihal they went up to tlie i'ort o( Kti'hes, Ihal yon see u|> al the lop, to unload and |i(;rliaps to gel sup- plies. A vessel that went up to meet lliein in Ihe latter pari of .lun(! was sei/.ed liy the I'niled Sialics and thai virtually hroke u|) Hie \oyages of these sealei's, because they eould not unload or olilain Ihe supplies Ihoy wauled, so they had to close their sealing season. The President. — Those go I'urther — lo July, August, and Sep- tember. Mr Phelps. — Yes. The President. — Where were Ihoy? Mr Phelps. — in another map il is shown where they were. They went to the .\siatic side of iiehring Sea. The niudtis rirciii/i Ucpl them out of the .American side. The President. — Ot'liehring Sea. Mr Phelps. — Tlie\ went over there, and made a lalei" sealing. The President. — II was alter. June that they went over there? Mr Phelps. — Yes. The President — NYas il in the latter part of June? Mr Phelps. — Yes. General Foster. — They uidoaded after they niaile the exchange of the skins and got supplies. Tlie\ went over after that. Senator Morgan. — \\ Ould \ou point out on that map where sou lirst gel the entrance to the I'ribilof Island of llie.se herds that are going over there. General Foster. — I'nimak Pass is one of tin; favorite passes, accor- ding lo Ihe teslimouN — Ihe principal one. The testimony is that Ihey go out as far as latitude 17:!. Senator Morgan. — I waul von to point out the lirst one. General Foster. — That is Ihe |)rincipal one, |indieatiiig on the ma|)i. Mr Justice Harlan. — .Vre there some passes easy to make the pas- sage through? General Foster. — There is one called False I'ass nl high tide. Il is not used li^ the seals, I understand. Senator Morgan. — The.so seals that Mr t'helps has lujeu speaking of had accomplished aboid Iwo-lhirds of the disttinee betwcteu A'aucouver and lliat pass to the I'ribilof Islands at the time you mention? Mr Phelps. — You see from the map where they were when taken. — '2277 — General Foster. — Wn will show lator on wluil llu; rlmrarlor nClhiit cntcli is. The President. — Do nol I hey go iifUir Iho seals along Hiialaska — along Hie promontory ? Mr Phelps. ™- They are (ravelling (here. I do nol know how close ihey [tursne il. The President. — Itnl yon have no evidcnee ahoiil. Ihal. Mr Phelps. — I do nol, know. I am nol |»roe(>eding on that |inini lor the nionienl. The President. — l''rom llnalaska — from Kadiak? Mr Phelps. — 01' eonrse, all we know ahoni the preseneo of llie seals in Mils connexion is whal Hie logs of the vessels show. We show where Ihe vessels were and we show in mosi cases how miinv Ihey canglil — nol in all— and Ihe course of Ihe vessels, and we have laken whal ves.sels gol lluun Ihere and where Ihey wenl. Lord Hannen. — As far as Iheso vessels are concerned, yon se((m lo siiggesl Ihere is some reason why Ihey conid nol he Iraced liirlher. \(m say Ihey wenl up inio Ihe corner of llnalaska lo unload and gel supplies. General Foster. - Thai is one reason. The olher reason is Ihey lake a sli^aighl course over lo Hie 'Asialic side. As you see, Ihis map is on a very large scale and we could nol reproduc(> il all. We have anoihei' map showing where some oClhem were. Mr Phelps. — We have anolher map losliow where some of lliem were over — al Ihe Commander Islands. We caiinol Irace lliem all of course. Now lo consider the ipieslion from anolher poinl of vi(!w. Now from the hrilish Commissioners lleporl I lake oul some extracts to show this. In Section 177 Ihev sav. Ahrniisl (ii; (.r siuiicwlial finllior north llian, IIk; (,»iiecn niiarloKe Islands (F.al. :;:!"), a coiisidcralde body ol' seals is nrien iiicl with at sea hy Iho |i('!a,!,'if si'alcis ijj May or .tunc. Thoso seals arc llicii iiidviiif^- nurtli ward Ahciiil Ihcliisl nCVpiiJ iho 'IMiiiiisJans icsurl U< Zayas Isiaiid (l.al. .■;:,'i lor tho same purpnsi! liiinliiiK (itsc:ils fnnii shore). The hiiiiiiii,;;-, asal pivs,.|it |.iaclised, eslciids over .April and liio f;rcaler par! ol' May; olV Uanilla Islaiid il is coniiniicd Ihroii.irh Ihe ^TcakT part . it .liiiic, hill Ihis dilli'iiiiii-,. is iIik' lallicr lo Ihe option of Ihe liidi.ins than lo any diversity in dales in Ihe arrival and de|iartiiiv ot Ihe .soals ill llie hvo places. Seals nthoth sexes anil all ajres are Killed diiiiiif< Ihe liiintiiiif season, and a h'w full -rowii Inills an? seen, hill are seldom laken, Tln're is, in lln's region, mi inlerval helween Ihi' arrival ofsi'als Irom i| rih j,, || ,.i,.iy „.j|,|pr and Ihoir dcparliiie lor Ihe north, wliieh oeenrs in Ihe main ahoiit Ihe end of May. Srr. I7H. Outside Cape Calverl (l.,al. :i'J") seals are most abundant in March, bill a few remain until Ihe laller (larl olMunc. The seals coniinff lirsl are ehiefly fe- males, bill lifter Iho Isl of June they are nearly all yoniiK males. Fully matured lai'fjc! males are found in small niimhers. .S>c l,S-2. About l!arcla,\ Sound (l!t"i t!ie seal are lirsl icporled in Deei'iuln'r... The frrealer nninbei' leave lielnre Ihe end nf .Vpril, when Ihey Infill In Iravei iiorlji, bill a few aie Killed, fiiilber nut al si'a, soiiKilimes as lali^ iis lint l.'llb ,(i Sfc. ISi. Captain .Inhn lleveienx. who lias been for hvenly-seven \ears mi Ihe coast id' Ihilish Columbia... infniins us, in reply lo i|ueslions addressed to him, Ihal from the laller part of November, (U' early in Deremhi-r, lo the hi'piiiiiiuj; of Juno, the fur-seal is found olf Ihe coast of the enliie lon;;lli of Vaccoiiver Island — 5278 — (48°;!0' lo Sr), but llial in llic oarlv winirr llic wcallicr is altogpllier too rough for liunliii));. Src, IS". Iiitlic vicinity orSitl coast as early as the luiildlo of April, Imt llicy bocoiui! aliundaiit tlininj,' May, anil sonu) arc still seen in (he early pari olMinio. On (lie I'airweatinM' ^iroiind, in llio (iulf of Alaska. (,"i8''30') seals aro most nume- rous from llie Is! lo l.Mli of June. AlionI llie 'J.'itli .Iniie, in ISiM, they were I'onnil in ahundance hy (he scaling-s( hooners on Iho Porlloek hanks, tu llio east of Kadiak Island. Ahont Kadiak (.ST'lo .'ls») ilipy are (jenerally found from the 'J.'ilh of May to Ihe end ol' ,lune, hein^r niosi alnmdanl in Ihe averaj,'e of years ahoni Hie lOlli .liine. They are seldom seen in .Inly, and very rarely even slragf;lers are nolieed after the miildle of Ihat month. Thill is llie Brilisli Cnmmissionprs stalcmcnl about where the seals are. Now we have Ihe leslimony of a good many witnesses on this point. Tlieri! is Ihe leslimony of a f;reat number of Indians. Caplain Lighlhouse, tor instance — I eannol read Iheni all in tiie lime I have this week — says. The lirsl seal appear in the Strails^San Juan de Fuca) and on the coast ahoul Ihe last of llecoinher, and feed along the coasi, and seem to ho workinir slowly to lln' iiorlli luitil ahoiit llie niiildle of , lime, al which lime the cows are [irelly nnuh all none, but Ihe smaller seals remain nnlil ahoul Ibe middle of July... Of all Ihe seals capUireil by me ahoul one-half of llieni, I Ihink, were cows with pup in lliem, and it is very seldom Ibal I have ever call};!!! a full (irown cow Ibat was barren ordid not have a pup in ber. (V. S. Case, Vol. II, pp. 38!>, 3'.>0.) There 14 other witnesses at \eah Hay lo siibslanliato that. Now the Indians near (Jiieen C.harlolle and Prince of Wales Islands depose as follows. (jCorfjeSkullka says : Wi' commence hunting wbeii the gei'se begin lo Hy, and hnni for a monlh and a half. The gecsi' commence lo lly aboiil Ibe last of .Ajjril... I think uboul three females with pup out of every ten killed. I kill lots of yearling seals but never examine them as to sex. (U. S. Case, Vol. II, p. '.!!UI). Then Dan Nalidan; 2;i years old says : llavi^ hunted seals since I was a boy. This is Ihe lirsl year I ever huntiil on a schooner. 1 am now on the schooner Ailrenliin'. When I was a buy I bunlcil seals in Dixon's Knirance and oil (Jueeii Charlotio Island. Always bunted dining April and .May. In June the seals all leave going north... Ahoul one-balf of (be seal I have taken were femiiles willi puji. Have taken a very few yearlings. (U. S. Case, Vol. II, p. -im.) Tlien Mkla-ah anoliier Iniliun sa\s : I was Ikuii al lluwkan ; I am very old, iihinit tin years old. I have been a hunter all my lite. Have hiinli'd Im-seals (jvcry season siiiee I was olil enough in a canoe. The seals always . onie before lb>' birds begin lo sing very much, and Ihey are nil gone when tlie salmon bi'rries f;el ripe, which I think is between Ibe monlbs of March and July. I lliink about half the seals taken by me arc female:-, with pup. (U. S. i;aso, Vol. II. p. -JSH). _ o.)7n — Then another witness Smith Natch (Uniloii Stales Case, Vohimo II, pagc2l»8), says: Always luinlod fur-soals between March andJmio. They make llicinipppiiraiire ill Mairh in Dixon's Knirancn, liiil at that lime of tho year llm wralluT is so hail wiM'iiiiiujt liiiiil tliom. May is llic bust linie to liiiiil liiom bi'i;ausc llic wi'atlirr is always jjood. Tliuy all ilisappcar in .luiio and go noitli np Hie coasl, I liiink to havo their pups... Then Thomas Skowl, (Ihief of the Kas-aan Indians (Uniled Slates Case, Volume II, page J^OO), says : I always bunt seal in Dixon's Kniranco ami olT Prince oi' Wales Island, and hunted Ihein earh year Iroiii March to June. The seals all leave aboiil June 1st to gonorlli andbfive their piijis, I think... M.isl oflhe seals taken by me are females with pup. Never killed but one old bull in my life. .Now lliere is (he testimony of a largo nnml)cr of these witnesses — (I do not like to read what is hut repelition) — which will he found in the United Stales Case, Volume II, pp. 276 lo ;]()3. Now there is a body of evidence llial speaks from Sitka to Vakulak, Latitude 57" to 59" 30'. Adam Ayonkee lal page io'j of the United Sta- tes Case, Volume II), says : Seals are first seen and taken by me each year oil' Silka Sound, ahoiil the middle of .\pril. Have followed Ihi'iii as i\,r norlh as Cape ICdward, where Ijiey disappear about Juiii^ liOHi. They are conslanlly on the advance up the coast... Most all seal that I have killi>d have been prefrnani cows. Then Thomas Gondowen, from the same locality, says : Have bunted seals between Silka and Cross S Jimd. They (irst appear about Hie middle of this inontli (April), and disappear ahout the last of June... Must of the seals killed are cows with pup. A few males are killed averaging from uiiu to four years old. (I!. S. Case, Vol. II, p. -JSii). Then Percy Kahik I Day, who has hunted seals since a small hoy, says : The seals first make Iheir appearance about Hie middle of April ofPSitka sound and disappear about July Isl. They are |)icj.'nanl. (U. S. Caso, Vul. II, p, •l.H). Then OInf Kviin says : Tlif (Irst sials apiicar in I'lliict' Willianrs Sound about llio llrst of May and \v(^i'(> fornipfly vny pli'iilifnl, while now Ihny are lieeoniing constantly searcer. I do not know Ihe cause of tliis decroaso. All the seals which I have seen killed wi'io females, and the luajurily of these wc^ro prevrnaut eows. ^U. S. (lase. Vol. II, ji. a.'KIL Then Nicolas Andorscn says : Seals are lirst seen al IMime William Sound about May Isl. (U. S.Case, Vol. II, p. -2i:\). TliiMi llie last locality llial I will rofor lo is Cook's liilcl. Motry .Moniii and 12 oilier Indians (oslify llial : The fnr-sials usually appear ahoiit Conk's Inlet early iu the month of May. They were formerly tciuiid in lliis re;;ion in ^rreat nnndx'rs, bnl of bile yisirs Ihey have been cons anily diminishing; owin;,' lo the nundier of sealing vessids engaged iu killing them. Tiiey do nol I'liter llooks Inlet, (t'. S. t'.asc, V(d. II, |). .i'Jli). Tlioii aiiollier witness Alexander Sliylia says : The fur-seals usually appear oM'this part of the coast about the iiionlh of May, bul llioy do nol enler Cook's Inlet. (II. S. Case, Vol. II, p. -Jiti). I will not lnuii)l(' yon any further lliore, Sir. Tlicii lliere is another class of evidence as lo wiicre pelagic sealinj; is carried on aloiin llio coast, and the cliaracler of Ihal catch before IIk? siniI herd enters liironj;!) Ihc passes. The .Marquis Venosla, when this was };oin},' on, put a question in the course of the arjjnnieni on this point, lie enquired wheliier hy tin? monlh of June Iho female seals are practically in Uehrin;; Sea, and wiielluM-al llial time a c seals — (/// Ihe seals — n// llie seals — d hope I s/m// not /imr to repeal thai again) — that are taken in Ihe .North I'acilic Ocean by pelagic sealers are 8.") percent females; and of Ihal S.'i per cent, the greater pioportion are piegnant. Now Ihe only jxiint that remains is, not to read Ihat evidence all over again for there are a hundred or two of these witnes.ses, — it is to show the dnration of the time only of this pelagic sealing in the North Pacitic ; that is to say that it goes on from the period of the year when it begins— when the weather allows it to begin — in .laimary and February, clear away down to the Isl of .luly. Senator Morgan. — Now in January and Febrnary, if I understand, Ihey conmience. 200 or 300 miles down the coast — below at t'.ape Flat- tery? Mr Phelps. — Tliero is a good deal of evidence of that sort- thai Ihey go into IJehring Sea about the Isl of July, in \ery rare instances, as I have slated before, llio Tables show thai a vessel got in the last days of June; but the season continues, in Uk; North I'acilic, down to the Isl of July. Oa that point I was referring to a number of these witnesses out of a great many that I couhl read. Captain Kicnian (at page ioO of the United States Case, Volume II), says : I usually eoninionec tiie vnyauo near (h(M'oasl oC Calilnrnia in Ihe early part ol' January and conliuuo dong up Ihe euasi, following the herd lo its hreediiig ground uidil Ihe iailer p.art ol June, hunting all the wav and entering liehring Sea about the Isl of Jnlv... Then Captain Luljens at page 458 of the United States Case, \ olumc II, says ^ 2282 O. Wlirn ilciis si'iiliii;; cuminciiro in llu- Pacillc iiiid wlu'u dnrs it (.'iiil? A. II ('i)iiiiiioii('('s iibuul tliu 1st of Jaiiimry mul oiids nhout llic last uf Juti*'. lie speaks of foui-nflli lieinf; females, as lliey all do. Then Captain I'.iii'llieul, master manner, at page id!) of Ihe I'liited Stales Case, N'oliime II, says : I ii'Oiiiliv Icll Sail I'laiicisco in I'cljnuuy <>r Marcii dI'imcIi yi'.'ii', ami sailed aloiij; till' ('iia>l, rnlldwiii^' llii' luMil iiorlli oil tiiiMr way tu lln' linitli great rapidity it does not probably take Iheui more than a day lo go throut^li - -liM — llie pass In II... islands. TIm-v i.iv (lin.u;;!. Ilio puss an •' Sprini.: ral.^li " is perhaps |.,w..r .lown — opposil,. (h.. parls of lh.> sea from NNhi.l, |hov slarl : an.l Iho " CoasI Cal.-h - is al.wi^' follnwinj; M/v ..oasl round further norlh. (lenora! l-'osL^r will show i! y.m .)n lli.- map. General Foster. - II saxs Ih.n w.-re acuslon,.'.! to Kointo Vi.'loria or gi'iicralh ahoul Clavorjui'l Soiin.l in the Spring,' — April possil.lv — the latter port of Man^h or April. Tl... Spring CaL^h an.l lli,> .•oasi cahli is faken up //m^ i...liealiun "u II.,- ...ap . nnLLI, is nen.-rallv ex.d.ai.-.«.l l.s a yess.'l I..'!..- sent up I,, lak." II..' skins an.l luruish them will, supplies. Thai is ealh'.l ||... '> ,.„„s| ,,,l.l. ••. ||.,. wl..,|e allo-elh.T beinn Ihe " norlh- wesl eoasi cal.'h ". Mr Justice Harlan. — Th.' ivason r..r .ny asking the .piesli.tu is Ihal I hav.-a h.l>l.> l.rlor,. „n ,.y,.. ()„pag..:)| | „rih,, MritishCtminissionei's'- lleporl li.eiv is a lahl.' sl...vNinj; Ihe .-aL^h orih.; Mrilish C.luu.l.ian vessels for IMS'.). I lak.- tl..< vess..| •• Amii.' C. .M ■.. ". Sprinj^eateh 'Mli, .•..asl Piilili 'iH\), l!..|irii.-S.'a I:2H. Kv Phelps. — I see thai .listin.lion, and I will r. , Jo answer it lo MM aw. Mr Justice Harlan. — r supp.ise the •• sprin- " and " eoast " ealches lon..|l..'r .•..n^lil.il.'whal is .alle.l the •• .North West Coast eateh ". Mr Phelps. - 1 snIM enquire ahoul it, Sir. Sir Charles Russell. — .\s I understand Ihe eonlenlion we understand Ihi' sp....j; ,;,|.|. e\le...ls Iron, the earlieriu.inlhs IVom January lo April The.i at the end ol'lhal lin..- they are supp.ised lo f;o in for supplies. Mr Phelps. — \,,\\ ||i..,v is a lar-.- mass of l.-slimouy as lo the elia- I'ailer ..f |h.. ,al.l. hilu'i., Ihal I have jjonc Ihroujth; hut I want lo eall allpiilion i.t.NN I.) a lal.l.' Ihal we ha\.- prepared, jjiving the iojfs of these IW vessels. Sir Charles Russell. — This is something new. Mr Phelps. — Theie is a good d.>al ofevidenee.iet me say I weni over ilhyeiasses y.-sler.lay. that has heen before referivd lo, about the cha- i'a'J'2 1)11 llic Asiatic (liiasi ; inaUing a lulal ol' \A1'A. Tliu " \V. I*. Hall " IddIv .'>() seals in .iiinc, and .'tlid on IIm' .Vsialir Cdusl; making; a lulal ol' 'i III. Tilt! " .Maud S. " look 82 seals in Kcliriiary, l(i;{ in Manli, \'M in .Vpril, it'll in .May, l:t in .hint;, and 7iK on lliu .\sialic Coasl; making' a (olah.r 1,7(17. This shows willmiil readiiif,' Ihis 'rahii- all lliroii{;li — (we ran fiirnisli (•o|iies oi'ili — llial of iliese vessels, Hie f^iealesl hulk ol' llieir sealiiif,' in llie Pacilie aside h-oin Ihe .\sialie Sealing; i, was in llieiiionlli ol'.May. The whole ealehes ol' these \essels li^iire n|) like this : 2H seals in ,laiiiiary, H:\:\ ill Kel.iuary, '('.H in Mareh, I ,<,»;{8 in April, 8,:{f)(l in May; l,i:W in .liiiie. Thi'ii there is Ihe Asiatie ealili which is not inali'iial lor my pur- |iiise. Tiic rollowiiif; is Ihe Talde referred h). N V\11. nl. VINSKI . 1 A \ 1 \ 11 V 1 i;Mit rriiliiiiia ,, II :i W. 1". Hall .... .. .Maud S 1. Hi .\Kiii'N M.- hnn.iM . " .Viii'lii. .. Hi'alricc •.*'.! :i., Sa|i|iliiii' i;. 11. Marvin. . , . (i ISI Viva .. "I'i Aiiiiii' 11. I'ainl. . . " i',1 Aiiiiii' 1'.. Miidic. . " r.i«ii " .\innlMl " -V Mermaid •■ riiiiiii|di " Tliisll.' " il C. II. Tii|ipii. . . . illl i:. It. Hand . . . . VaihiiiiMi- llilli'. . ■• hi TcMM.. . ix Nil.'i M VII \i iMi. M\V. .11 \1-: \.ilMh T.il \I. 1 17.1 |( Id ',:> lill ;is ll-J-^ .. .. :iii :iim llti iii:i iii li:;7 i:i 7 IN 17(17 s:i i 1(1 (>:; Mt '.Ki'l •■ .. M', l»7 Ii7.i 1 I'll) n:i 1 ;i!i ilil i'i ;>i:i 1 iU\ l-.'i s;\ M ■■ !in:i W't ZHO ■,i:;h Iii 1) 1 (i-j:i I'll i;ii:i :i:t •iii '. .. 1 Sis lii:i h; ■JiiT M i;!l llxS nil 1. Mi ■ii " M' ■■ .i:i :iiii 1.17 n iSd „ :i:i :,s:i in; Mil 7.1(1 IN7 " " i:.; iii:i ■• ■2(12 :iK liii ■.'II '.1 XI ill '.I'.i i:;; :i:i *ti 1 i;.\ i\ li ill IJI .. .;sii • "' :;s ilij IT jiiii liii '.M.ll 1 !i:m N illll 1 cm \ OHi I7;i:i:i .Now il will h(> seen from this Tahle Ihal the total coast calcli in IH',12 I mean in this eonneclioii all round niilil Ihey enter Itehrin}; Sea of these l'.» vessels, from .laiiiiary to April inclusive was :t,7'.t2 : and in liie moiilhs ofMay and June, ',»,(i',»H, makiiif; a total id' i;{,i',»U; in oilier words, •JS per ceiil of Ihe coiisl catch was taken /irforr Ihe I si .May, and 7:;i per cent during l\w months of May and .lime. .Now if >oii apply those (inures I 1:1 I i tl I 7117 '.11; i I I'll) I iu; !i8;i I ti-j;t I NW ',I.SS 1»2 wliich was :{(»,;i;i;} -^ if you apply III., same ratio U, (li.! ollior vessels ll.al tlioir lo-s ,sliu«s I., |,e i'|'|>li«'al.l.> l(. Ihis, \M. Iiavc, fnun Jainiary lo April iiwhisiv,., H :\:\:\ sfals- and in IIh> ino.ill.sor ,\lav an.l .1. .2l„!l!tH. ICv.mi wen- [o appiv ll,a( l.i (lie four y.-ars, >vliy, ym <^r\ just al)oii( lli.-saiiKi (iiriir.is. ^«1\V whiil isllii! iipsliol (.lull Ihis? ■N'osv lliis, Sir, I amatVai.l i;sas lams I ran -..I lo-dav, I anicvln-UH-Iy sorry thai, I have not he,... al.l,; I., lullil ,ny promise, lo j^'clll,roiif;li to-.lay': bill I am iiol Ihroii^^h, ami ] ,„:,y have, to ask tli,! imlul(.cm-c of Ih.; TriiMi iial lor a lilUu whili; lo niuirow il' il would suil Ihu n)nv.t to Hie extent of almosi 7.'; per rent -. 7:i per eeiil al any rale ; and llial Hie vessels do iiol eiil.'r the llehriii^ Sea iiiilil the I si of .luly, Hie very lime VNheii Hi., .dos,. lime M.al is piopos.vl hy my li.arii.'d IViemIs on Ihe oilier si.le would all.iw lliem Jo e r ; so that Hie .dose lime do.-s not keep tlicni .ml at all. (If.„urse, it .lo.'s no! inlerlen' will, the eal. ii on the coasl ami il .Iocs iiol inh-rfere wilh Ihe eal. »i in It.dirin-; Sea. I vvani lo .'misiih-r the suhjeel a iilli.; further faml .!sp,..ially tlie .pios- lion of /.on.!i, l..-m.)rrow, and .ome few olh.-r .■onsideralions in respe.l to Hi" s..aliiin in lieliriiiK S,,,. I have v.-ry little, if anvlhin^, m.ue lo sav on Hi.- suhje.1 of Ih.; ealrh in the {•(..•ilie (Kran ; an.i Ihen I ihii.k i| will l'<'''oni.> v.'ry apparent when we !;..| thnm).'li what area imisl he r,,v,.,.e,l hy U.'KulatioMs if vou are f^miv^ (u save Ihe se.il, -. what am, miisl h,. eover- '•'• ill onl.'r lo ..|lee| Ihe ohj,-. I and. what /»,ir tmist U.- .■ov.'red t.. answer Hie same piirpos.'. The President. - ,Mr IMi.dps, we ,1., no! want to preelnde von fr.mi linishiiif; this week, as von liavojii.sl l.dd „s il is vo.ir wish; so vv.iiiileml silling to-morrow, hut we w, mid sit mily lo morrow afh-riiooii. Mr Phelps. - Thai will h,- .piil,. enough lor my piirpos.'. The President. — If il a-nrs will, vour an'anf;.mienls, .Mr I'liolps, wf- vvoiil.l meet lo-m.i.row at i>.,'.do(dv. Mr Phelps. - V..S. The Trihunal. ol .oiirse. will nmlersland I am 'I""" '" H'"ii' liands in r.^spe,'! .,f U,.. lim... All time, would he aKreiihIo l<» III.', Ilial an. .•oiiv..|ii.Mit I.. ||,.. Trihunal; and if :i o'eloek (,; .--.orrow alieriio.m w.)nl.l he eoiiveiii..|it. it would suit me. The President. — We are s.miewhal in your hands also. Mr Phelps. — I hej; you will m,l .■.msi.ler il so, Sir ; I only r.-ivt Ihat I liavi- he.'n so lonf". The Presidettt. - I iikmu lo say, it would he useless to m.'..| tomor- row ami to have this e.xlra and shorl.M' imvliiifj, if yon di.l uol think v«n '•oul.l .•oiivenienlly say all you wanted l.t say lomorrow. - '2'J86 — Mr Phelps. — 1 shall finish lomorrow, Sir. The President. — Then, if you please, we will adjourn till lo-inorrow ul'lcrnoon al 2 o'clock; we cannot sit before that time. |The Tribunal thereupon iicljourned until Saturday afternoon, the 8lli of July at 2 o'cloclv.| K[l-TY-TIIIRD DAY. JULY 8th 1803 Mr Phelps. — I liad nearly finished ycslcrday, Sir, what I desired lo say in regard lo sealing in the .North iVilic in support of our proposition that the principle scaling — the largest mouths, (he result of which is far beyond that of any of the others, lakes place in May and .Inne, and oei,>..s iu the localities that are indicated hy the logs of the 1'.) vessels whose logs we happen to iiave ; and I enlcrlain no douhl, because it is open lo no doubt, in fad all the general evidemo in the case proves it, that all Ihc vessels that are engaged in that season of Ihe year follow just about that course; so that if we had all the logs, Ihey would be very nearly coin- cident or substantially coincident wilh Ihese. 1 wish, however, before quile leaving that point lo cniphasi/c the fact that the very large proportion of seals taken in those months and in those localities not merely by these but by all scalers are, females in this condition. It has also appeared, because I went over the whole evi- dence very fully, and the result of the whole as soon as il is clearly slated speaks for itself and requires no further supi)or(, — il has been already pointed out that of all the seals taken iu the .\orlh i'acilic from .lanuary or February lo June, or whatever the season is, — il lasts till the end of June that 8."J per cent at Icasl are females, and Ihat of Ihose a very large proportion are in Ibis condilion. Vou will bear in mind also as I poinled out yesterday by a good deal of evidence which is cited by Ihc iJritish Commissioners, a good many statemenis, or I should say passages in their Kcporl which I referred lo, show during that lime thai is where the seals iire; and I refei'i'ed also lo a good deal of lesliuiony of the Indians along Ihe coasts following them from one ncighbourbooil or locality lo another all the way round showing hy Ibis testimony, the time Ihe seals a|)pear and the linu during which they remain, so llial, from all this evidence converging logclher from indepcndenl sources, itis apparent Ihe sealers are, during 'hat period indicated by Ihese logs, in that locality sealing Ihero and Ihe great projtorlion arc pregnant fcnndcs. I will only add one relercnce, in a very few words, lo wlial I gave yesterday on this by reading one section fiom llu; Itritisli Commissioners lleporl. It is seclion 132 at page 21 and efter a distinct admission of the fact we need not support il I)\ any further marshalling of Icslimony. \\'i\\\ Iiii'IIkt rcri'ii'iicc lo llii' circcl ol' iiropDsi'd liiiir liiliils or clusc seasons oil till) sliurc iind si'ii-si';iliiifiii's|ii'ilivrly, anil ill oiilcilo |iiovt' liial sinlian aii|)aii!iilly siiniilc iiK.'llioil ot rc'rnlalion i< nol cinially aiiiiiicaliln lo Imlli imliisliius, II may bo sliowi' thai K''"i'iiill.v lliis clliiit woiilil lie nol only inoi|iiilal)lc, but oltcii iliamclri- cally Jiiposilc in tlio, two casos, — i'2S8 — Now this part of llie suction is wiial I cite this for : In pcla^'ic spaling, tin' wcalhiT is usually surli as In indiico a I'uw vi'sscis lo go out ill January. Iiul thncali'lies uiado in (Ills innntii arc asarulo siiiiill. In Kcbrunry, March, and April llii' cundilidiis arc iiiiially hcllor, ami larger calclics arc iiia season. There can i)0 no qiicslion tliercfort! Ilial. accc|itinf;iny loarnetl friends sug};cstion tliiit lo tlo aiivliiiiij; towards jireserving, these animals you must |)iit a slop to the siaiigliter of (gravid females, he is entirely mistaken in his idea that you svoidd ell'ecl that by keeping your vessels hack till the 1st .May on the theory thai before they overlook Ihe miffialion of Ihe herd the female seals would have reached Ihe Prihilof Islands, beoaiis(' all Ihe evidence completely demonstrates Ihey do not pass tlirouffli the .Aleutian Islands till June, perhaps well (mi into Juno, and all Ihe evidence concurs as to the time at which they arrive on the islands, hearing in iiiind. Sir, ii suggestion that I believe fell from you, or at all events from one of Ihe .Vrbilrators, il is true the dillerenl ages and sexes of llicse seals do not travel togellicr. There is a greal deal of leslimony lo that elfect, and a great deal of leslimony otherwise, which I do not care lo go into; but while the bidls precede llio cows the dill'erencc in lime and in space is not sufficient to enable :< discrimiiialidii In be made. II is impossible to say llial there is any liii'e lor a vessel lo go oul, and lo say that its catch would he conlined lo Ihe old bidls, even if Ihe destriiclii)n al that time woidd not be particularly injurious; but assiuuing their place would be tilled from the holluschickie if Ihey were destroyed, it wouhl l)c simply reducing the number of holluschickie. The lime and localily is not enough to diseriminalesay between Ihe females and holluschickie. The evidence is Ihey travel along subslanli.dly tog< Iher. There is some evi- dence lhi«l Ihe females precede them. I'cihaps Ihey do, and perhaps Ihey tlo not. I do nf)l slo|i a singli; niomcnl lo weigh Ihe evidenci; on Ihis subject, because Ihis is pl;iin, as I said before, Ihal Ihercis not any discri- mination you can lay hold of. Il is not possible to say that a vessel can go on this (lav, or into litis localily with Ihe evpeclalion of taking or fail- ing lo lake female seals. The President. — Practically there does not seem to be evidence Ihal in pelagic sealing many of Ihose ohl hulls an; killed — I do not believe there is any evidenc(> on Ihal. Mr Phelps. — 1 agree willi you. Sir: the leslimony is thai very few of litem are laler. I suppose Ihey are a little in advance of the vessels or iire more successful in keeping oiil of Ihe was lliiin Ihe pool' females ar(^ The President. — Tlies niiglil be bi'ller marks as lhe\ are bigger. Mr Phelps. — ^Cs, and also llie\ wiiiler in Ihe norlli, iiiid do not lol- low Ihe migralion of Ihe bciii, iind do nol ciune down soiilh its lar as C.ii- liforiiia. and have nol so far to go; bill whaleverihe irasoii was which _ 2-iSlt — wo iKicd not slitp In speculate on, llic fact is eoncetled on ull liands. Now I want to call attention lo one other mass of testimony as to llio time that these pelafjic seah'is f,'o into lleliriug Sea in point of fart, and tiiis indicates somotiiinj; that is wdrtliy of notice. We have examined 75) witnesses that is lo say, of the many witnesses we have examined 79 fix a date as lo the time liicy enter hehrin},' Sea, and their testimony is — I shouhl say that OK ol tliem testify — they enter llie Sea after Juno the 20tli and (IH of liiem helwecn July 1st lo July 15th. Of course, those Iwo classes uf evidence comprise a };ood many ofllie same witnesses, hccause there are hut 7'.) all told, hut out of the 70, I repeat, 6 say they entered the Seu after the 20 June and after the 1st July. Now, of the 3I() Depositions taken hy (ireat Uritain and printed of Ihcse pelaf,nc sealers of all classes, Captains, Males, hunters, Indians and evcryhody, the (jueslion is only put to 'i of them as to the time at which they i,'o into the Hchrin^' Sea; and; those live testify precisely as these American Witnesses I have cited do. One says the latter part of June; two saycarlv in June, and the other two Jidy the 20th. Why was not that queslion put in this great mass of evidence? I think I can give the reason tiiat will occur lo evcryhody. It is proposed hy these Commission- ers lo make the dose time as lo Mehring Sea terminate on the 1st of Jid\, Ihiitis lo say, terminalejust when the pelagic sealing hegins when il wouhl not have any sort of ellcci at all and not cut olf a single vessel except a very few of Ihc laggards, so lo speak, that have gone in on the last day of Jinie. It would have retarded them, I suppose, perha|)s a week ; one vessel in ten or Iwcniv, as the case may he, would have heen retarded. Now, let me ask you, what would have heen the (sirecl if this close lime that is now proposcul for Hehring Sea had heen enforced during the last ten years and had heen religiously observed. In the light of this evidence — in llie lighl of their uUer failure lo con- tradict it and careful avoidance of a question which could he answered in hut one way — in the light of the admission I have read from the Mrilish Commissioners I hat the coast catch lerminalcs on the last of June and the liehringSca hegins on Ihe first of July, what if this Uegulalion which has lieensuhniittcd lo \ou to he adopted for the preservation of Ihe fur seal had heen enforced for Ihc last 10 years. It would not have saved Ihe lile of otic single si^d — nol one— il wmdd simply have imposed upon these few thai areearlier than he lirsl ol July Ihe necessity lo wait a lew davs before they entered upon Ihe harvest. .Now wlial more can h ; said about this close lime? .Nol a single word uselully. I leaveil lo the "onsideration of the Tribunal. Theolherendof il you will lemember it is proposed to he the l;Uh September. .Ml the evidence is that every seal i.< out of the sea before Ihe l.'itli September. II is no use al the other end. il i>< no use? at Ihe beginning, and no use at th(> close. Now Iconic to the queslion of /one. The President. — Isil llie case Ihal there is no sealing after Septem- ber ,.l all eilher in or out of Hehring Sea? — i-H^O — Mr Phelps. — Inside ol' lU'liriii},' Sou to wliirli litis iilonc applies. Tlioro is subsliiiUiallv none aller the 1;! — I nmiiiIiI no! niiderhiKe lo say. Af- ler a very exceptional season some vessels niiiilil linpM' loitf;er: hni. iiolhinf; lo any evienl. Sir Charles Russell. — There can he no sealing' after tlie I.MIi Sep- tember prailieally — the weallicr prevents it. The President. - The scaling ships do not follow the herds of seals out of IJeliring Sea? Sir Charles Russell. — The weather |)revcnls scaling. The President. — Kven in the North IVifii? Sir Charles Russell. — So I understand. Mr Phelps. — Seals begin lo leave along in September, and llioir migration is dotormined nndonbledly by the wealhcr. Some limes in a very mihl season sonic seals. The gr(>at balk of them migrale imd the exact jieriod of migration, as wilh all migratory animals thai I know anything about, is alVeclcd (o a greater or lessor exlenl by the wealher and the season, (".criainly sowilh migialory birds. .Now about this zone this 20 mile /one — around the islands in Itehring Sen. We have seen that the close time is of no avail at all. .Now, how much lor lhe2(lmile zone? Well i will show yon in a few minutes a ludi- crous picture of what Itussia has made out f'oi' itself b\ insisting upon this I5(l-mile zone which is 10 miles larger than tiiev pro|)osiMl for us. We shiill follow sonu' of these vessels that we had in hand before, through their very successful voyages round the C.omiuander Islands, and I shall show b\ their logs that wc have — all that we could get — how nuicli this ;J0 mile zone amounts to — thai is lo sa\ it amounts to almo>l nolliing. In tlic first |)lace, who is going lo measure such a zone and who is going lo palrol il in seas that an^ afTected I y logs and by rain and by rough wealher more than all parts of the world, in fact, as you will remember, il has been pointed out, il is those (|nalilics thai are essenlial lolholife of the seals; thai is wh\ they malio their home Ihere, thai is the dil'ticnlly of liiulitig any other home, and those very conslitnenis are necessai'y. \'ou will remember that Ihe ti^slimonv is that in a drive, if llie sun comes oul clear, it is necessary to suspend llii' driving and wjiil, because il the seals are pushed idong in Ihe sun, il is very injurious. Who is to palrol this? and what sort of an everlasting dispute is likely lo arise on the (pu^stion whelher U)u are within or without 20 miles in such a Sea as Ihal — a solitude except for Ihe sealers — nol like Ihe harbours ol' cities where there are lighl-hoiises and landmarks and laud-> nuclmn-cl, dial I lu'vcr inici ,| |„ as.riil ,uhI h.^vct ;!'";""'"' '" " "'■■"■'"' !"•• ^^ils which wciv iml lonvanl ,„, hch.-illnf fnii,.,! Nalcs rosciviiif. „,y „,,i„i„„ ,„, ihrm lur InMcr cmshhTalin,, ; hiil Ih,- x|,iv.m.,I "".' ".''"'^' ^'"■'' ■""" I""lu|- lU-r .M.-.jcsly's (luvcnuMCMl in the p. -al pnncpio on which Ihnsc ,„„,,osal> prnc ,1, „a,„clv. Iho clahlishmcnt of M,ch cliise liriio as shniild h< iialioii. ■ noccssaiv lo prcscnc the specie- or liii-srals IVom exlcririi- Mr Phelps. — I sball not exhaust tbo small lime llial remains lo mo 111 fioinj; ovor Ibal suI.jlvI ajjain. I bavo r I lo Ibis Tribunal (and if Ibo roferonoos are foi-ollen I .•an furnisb Ibom aKainl. ail tbo loiters Ibal were wrillon on Ibis subject . fr.m Ibo lirsl letter from the American Miuisler statins Ibis iijireemont - Ibo successive lollors of Ibe American '■l»tv,jv statin- il— Ibe successive letters of Lord Salisburv and (HIicials slalinf.il a^ain. There is Ibo best, and Ibo most, nnIicu be is pressed by Mr lilaino will, the recession of Kn^land from wbal \Nas as plain and coni- I'l'-b- I'll a-roemonl as over was made between nalioiis, sborl of reiliicliim I" an absolute Treaty. Il is Ibe best be can say, and all Ibal be ,aii say imd I have it on tbal — not because il is lb,, stron-esl evidence on u„r •iide of wbal thai aj;reomeiil was — il is Ibe slmnp'sl evidence on bis. I puss on now, I need nol occupy vour lime or my own — IVom Ibo I.MIi 280 v).jl|.J April to llio Isl Novr from llic Amcrii-an coasl on Ww. east to the lUissiaii C.oasl oil tli(! wesi and all north of 17 paralhl of lalitndc. Now (litl Lord Salishnry ever lake thai haek? hid he ever say lo Ihc American (iovernnicnt : " I weni too far; I am now advised, iiavin}? heard from Canada thai it is nnneeessary — tlial a similar area or a shorter lime would do? " Yes. he did lo this extent — he says lo Mr White in one of the later interviews (when Mr While was r/inri/i'- temporarily) : — " The Isl of Novemiter is later Ihaii is necessary, and I should Ihiidv the Isl Ortoher is late enough. " Thai was Ihe amendment after the lime when the eommuniealions have been reeeivi>d from Canada — after Ihe sulijcrt had been bi'fore not only the Koreifiu (M'lice, bul the Colonial Ofliee. That was the amendment ho proposed lo Mr Hiiyard — " ^ou have made it on Ihe whole a moiilli loo lale; " lo wliieh Mr Ifayaid responded in substance. " I do not think so. bul lei us call il Ihe l.'iiii October. " Call it llien Ihe Isl Oclohei-. if you please, which is fiOrd Salisbury's own sufjjijeslion. and then it is lale enough as far as Hehring Sea is concerned, indeed as fai' as all seas are concerned — Ihe dill'erenee is not worth talking aboiii. I have said il was inelVeilual. I mean inelVeclual lo patrol and to mark il out: but suppose il could be marked out in such a manner as to be completely observed Ihal no seal ever could be killed within 20 miles of the irlaml. What liien'.' What ell'ecl doe.- il hav on Ihe sealing in Iteliring Sea? What pi'oporlion of Ihese nursing-females llial are on! from the shore would be prolecled? A small portion certainly. — I do not mean lo say lliat there are no seals wilhin 20 niiles, — a proporlion so small that il woidd he no good towards the gcm-ral need in view of pi'eserviiig Ihe seal. If you do mil limit Ihe slaughter of Ihese molhei's and their young more than thai, do not be al the trouble, and expose these liovernmenls lo Ihe expense and difticnllv, of limiting il al all. " The game would ceas(! to be worth the candle. " it is agreed on all hands, and I do not slop lo read the evidence about it. thai Ihc cows arrive between the early .June lo the middle of .lulv. and Ihey ii'uiainon Ihe Islainls, of couise. The young are born, and |»ropagalion takes place: and Ihey go out in search of food at limes Ihal are slated generally as, " a few weeks; " " sometimes a few days. " 11 cannot be nuide perfectly delinite, bul the gi'ueral concur- rence of Ihe lestimony is Ihal it is a (ow days to a few weeks after Ihey land. Their young are usually born immediately upon landing; ami dif- ferenl witnesses stale dilVerent limes. ItuI il is. of course, like all such fuels, a general one that it is impossible lo l)ring lo an exitct point. Now where are Ihese seals Ihen found when Ihey do go oul? Thai eiioi'mons numbers of them is laken is shown. Thai of lliose Ihc grealcsl proporlion are nursing molliers is shown, if Ihe e\idence is to he believed. We know by that quite enough. Thai is shov. . Now where are Ihey taken in lh(! nehringSea? Thai has not been quile shown in the argu- ment. I have nut parliculurly addressed myself to Ihal question. I have ^l'll : tloiill only with tlio fncl Hint llicy \vori< Inkcn in llio Sea, and when tlioy wore lakcii, and what llieir condilion was ancise distances. Now CiiptainShepard of the Iniled Slates heveiine Marine made 18 sei- zures of sealing vessels and stales that the skins were Iwo-thirds to lliree- fonrths those of females, lie says thai of the females taken at llehriug Sea iKMi'ly all are in milk; and he has seen the milk and so forlli, on Ihe docks of sealing vessels thai were not more llian I0(» miles from (he I'ri- Ifilof Islands. And these seizures wore not confined lo any particular sninmer. They range along from .hdy 30th lo August IS. .Now if you will Inive the kindness to turn to map No ;> in thi> portfolio of maps annexed to the I'niled Stales case, you will see how il is marked. The President. — The seizures map. Mr Phelps. Ves it is map No ii called " seizures *'. On that map ai'elaid down the places where these vessels there named engaged in sealing were seized, by Captain Sliepaid ofllic Iteveniie Marine, whose testimony is givtMi, and upon whose log mid upon whose lestininnv (lii-; Chart is compiled. Mr Justice Harlau — What do those dates on the right below the line mean? Is that (lie date of seizure .' Mr ^helps. — The dale of .seizure ; and it will he found thai those dates cover from .Innc 30lli to August ISth — they are all wilhin that period. Now thai map i for itself The great majority as, the scale of the map will show, of these seiziireswere (10 miles or more than (10 miles, and n considerable number of them a great deal more than (10 miles clear down to the passes Ihrougli the Aleutian chain. Not a word can be added to llial map as showing where sealers are found. Now orilicsc v.-sscls so sfi/ctl.wf liiivo |iIoII.m1 llic lofis (il'roiir nl' tliciii — nil tliiil we hiivc — sliowinn wlicrt" llicy liad liccii. This innp shows wlieri) Ihcy lind hcfii sci/rd. \\ hiTf hiid Ihfs hi'ini sraliiif;-.' 11" yoii will lalvo llio (irsi voliiiiic ol' llii> I'liili'd Sliilcs A|i|u>iMlix. itiid o|mmi il lit |>ii^;i' I'tl'.'t ill till! lii'sl jdari', laiid in llin-i! siiIis('<|i1(MiI |tai;i's ."i.'!!, .'li.'t, aii;linws. al at ^;laiiee, wherealtonis this vessel had heen sealing. Now liirnin;^ over lo paf.'e ."l:)! las 1 do nol desire to spend lime nneies>arily lor those maps a sinf;le fjl.mee answers the piir- jiose). there yon lind Ihe lo^ nl'llie " Annie ", whiih entei'ed Ihe s 'a on Jnne '2',\ — a week earlier, or some whal earlier — and Ihe lofi ends AiifjnsI Ihe I.Mh. Von see when; Ihe vessel was — al least (id miles to the nearill a day. Then down near Ijiimak and I'nulaska, yon will see a lar}{0 nundierof seals and a good deal of sealing is done al Ihal Ion;; dislanee. The President. - Is il conlirmed Ihal llmse are seals im Iheir way lo llie islands, or on Iheir way from Ihe islands'.' Mr Phelps. — They mnsi he /'rum Ihe islands liy the ronles I have j;iven, hecaiise while one vessel chooses to enter Ihe sea as early as ,lnne 20lh, all the resi are well in il in .lidy: and it is in .lidy and earlv in .\nfiiisl so that Ihe herd on Ihe way fn Ihe islands wilh Iheir yonn;; nuisl of conrse have reached the islands hecansi! they are all on the islands hv Ihal lime. The President. —As rej;ards females, these wen; not seals wilh yonti};? Mr Phelps. — No, Ihcy are nnrsin;; females — females who have left Iheir yonng on Ihe. slmre. Sir Charles Russell. — We say some never were on Ihe islands at all. Mr Phelps. — One .other ohservalion on Ihe cruise of Ihe " Ada". — '22!l,'> — IVf It'll ; ill all. Ada". Ill llii! area llial is iiiilicalnl Ili(>n' which was noarcsl In llu- islaiiils. Ilic avcruKO sciiiinf,' was Wi) seals a day. jlowii hero at a dislancc of I7."j iniios or so lh(> avciMfii' nrxcids lnki>ii was.'i?. Marquis Venosta. — itiiriiif; llu; inonlh ol' .Inly or |hi' nioiilh of Allj;llsf.' Mr Phelps. — HiiriiiK Iho |icrio(l betwccui .Inly Uk; lilhand Anj^iisl Ilii! liilh. This vessel eiilered |ji(< sea on IIk; I ilh .Inly, and Ihe lo;; that w" have iMihlished here in our ca>e and IVoiii which Ihis is |)lolled, ends on lli'> 2ilh of .\ngnsl. Gi-neral Foster. — The ina|> shows seals laken each day. I( is mark- ed lliere, lor ioslaiice on An^nsl I'.MIi I2U, seals and so forlh. Mr Phelps. - In Ihe Itritish i:oiniiiis>ioiiei's lleporl we have lollowed (!vory Irace iiial Ihe evidence on eilher side onahles ns lo t'nrnish nin solves wilh, where any soalinf; vessel was at an\ },'iven lime, as well as lo lind mil these profiorlions o\' catches. Willi llieir lleporl lliey snhniita iiiimlier (irhijiosilions which f;ive distances Iroin Ihe islands al which the depoiienis seal. I will just refer lo that referring lo the paj;c. On jia^'c 'Jil'i of Ihi; Itrilish ('.oinmissioners lluport or Ap|u>iidix to it, there is Andrew Lain;; who leslilies Ihal lie has never heeii closer than :{(» miles — usually .'id lo '.Kt miles IVom Ihe islands .' On pap' SMt Captain William Cox says Ihal he has sailed usually from l(l(» lo I iO miles, and Ihe nearest he has heeii is HO miles. Captain Pclil on paj^c 22(1 says he has nsnallv sailed from (11) to 10(1 mil, s. On pi.^c 221 Captain Maker says he has usually sailed from ."iO to !I0 miles. On pajie 2;?H C:iplaiii llackelt says he has nsiially sailed from ."lO lo l.'iO miles, and never nearer than JiO. Now in the Hrilish Counter Case, in the 2nd Volume of Ihe Appendix, yon will lind some more heposilions Iheiu; in which lliiise dislaiices .iro mentioned. On pa};e 17 Captain Sieward speaks of 120 miles. On paj;e i~ Captain itillon says 0(1 miles. On pajieOO Cajitaiii Warren says a dislaiice ne\er nearer lliaii .'id miles — generally T.'i miles. Un page 100. Captain I'inckney says a disliince of viilt>ii('i> uiiil il is only lo locals llie |ilii('CH, I (III iiitl ;:o Imck lo llii> iillit>r. Now will you KiiidU l.iok ;il lln' same iliiirl No") of (lie I'liilfd SIiiIch Ca-i.'. The President. — TIip inirporl of my (iiic-ilion was lliis — llial llioro is a ^jroal tliUViviUT IicIwcimi llicsc talclios alU'r July in llt'liiiiij; Sea and llm ralrhi's aloii^ the iioilli-wi-sl coasl li<>t'oi't> llic seals liave ^oiie (o lluli- riiif; Sea. An- lliey all iiiolliiMs or j;iavid Icmali's .' Mr Phelps. — Yos. Merc I hoy are gravid reniales. The President. — They are luirsiii}; molliers? Mr Phelps. - The norlh-wesl coasl you mean? The President. ^ Yes. Mr Phelps. - in llie Itehrinj; Sea, these animals have all had their yiiiiii;; — lli('»e thai are i^tiw^ to have any — and many (hat are |»re}{iiant. The President. — The iirst sealing' was iiiiieh more detrimeiilal lo the species than the second sort. Mr Phelps. — This a mailer nl' cstinial'-. The President. — linniedialcly I mean. I do iiol wani lo interrupt yonrarj;uiiient — I mean according to your int'ei'cncc. II is your nicaniu^ I wanted to li\. Mr Phelps. — rhal(le|iciidsou whctlier Ihe \ounf;leri on shoreperish. Youii^' may perish alter dcalh id' the luother as well as liel'ore. Itnl il di'|iends on another consideration which all thi^ evidence shows, that hcl'ore llie>^i' leinales leave the islands at all Ihey are aj^ain inipre<;nated. The President. — .Ml these facts are helbre ns. Mr Phelps. — Ye<, I need not slop ahoul thai. On that chart \ou will also see localitieswhere sealers wei'c warned and sei/ed in I8',M under the iiiiii/iis rirriiili. (•ne other reniarU. 01' the (I'l vessels that were; sei/ed or warni'd, iK were more than 2ll miles Irom the I'rihilol' Islands. Of that nuinher more than half wei'e more than 'il) miles fi'om the island ; no vessel was warned licfore the .'ilh .luK, and there wore until the nii(hlle id' Au^;ust, warning's every day. Now suppose that all this tiiiu' there had heen a 'Jll mile /one. and suppose il had licen possihh' lo palrol il, and il had heen palrolli'd Ml thai il was nid iu'.aded — I should like to know, in the li^'lil of these facts, what diminuliou would liave laken place? Some of course. I do not deny that seals wc lakeii within 20 miles, and may he taken within 20 miles, hut a proportion so small that as I remarked a little while aj;o it is no use at all — you may as well lei il go as to repress il to such a time as that. 1 will nut deal with the atlempl thai is inad<> lo show that these cows heioine imniedialely dry. The tliiiij; is prepoiu^ period of Ihe yoiin;: -rals liii whiidi Ihey ars helpless . conlirnis that : and. more llian thai, this vasl hods oftestimonv Ihat llic day helore ycslerday I presenled lo you to show Ihe actual con- 10 - •-••.".17 - (lilidii t»r llii' n'ciil |iiD|iiirli(>ii 1)1' |li(.s.- souIh wliidi uriv liik.ii. || (|,i,..> iiol hear a inotiM'iits iiivrsli^alion. II was slarlcd by lliis man i;a|ilaiii Wanvii win. i> |ii'.i|.rii'l(ir, (.r |iarl |(ni|.n'p|i)r. of a pioil many nf Ihosu vi-ss.'ls, anil hcsi'l np IIm' suf^p-slimi llial yon may imniiMliali'K Im-jh Io kill seals as soon as Ihcy go Io sea. Ikmhiisi' whiji- ihcy arc nnrsing lln'ir yonnn "i"') ''"'> ii|> imnn-iliali'ly in a mannt>r nnknown loany smli animal — in a inanniT llial woiiM It-avc tin; yonn,; Io shiivi' llial is llm allompl It) liivak llii' font' ol'lliis IrcnKMidims liody orcvidcnci" Io provi! Ihal II I'arl is M(il so. I m'cd hardly dchiin you becauso Ihul is a .'omiMralivi' i|ii( .alrh in ll.diring Sea is nnich lai;;iT Ihan llial on II oasi in pdini of nninhcrs. || slands Ity ilscll', and I iun now ninsiilcrin}; llio Itclnin}; Sea, and prrhaps il is not Wry Ic- rial which is the worsi or which is |hc mosl. Slill, as Ihi' fml is very cicii.ly shown hy Ihc evidence, il may as well he taken inloacconni as wu pass alon-. Now as Io the Tahlcs, The oidy years in which we have any evidence on Ihal point are Ihrei-,— ISSlt, IK'.XI and IH'.H ; and IH!I| is (idy part ol'a year, heca use the// W//.v '/m/*//. as you will remeinher. camo iiiloopcraliondnriii- Ihal year; and, Ihererore, that is hnl partial, hut lakiiii,- from the Urilish Commissioners' Tahlelhat calcli, at paries 2(i:i, lill and 2IJ, wc have summarised what il shows. In IHS't then; are shownlli vessels with a ealch on the coast, Ihal is in Ihe .North I'acilic, of |-J,;ni seals. In IH'.MI, ;t(l vessels, you <••.• they had increased one-hall', with a catch on coast of :>l ,:i',l(l. pictly w,dl appf.achiu^ Io douhle Ihccalchof the year hel'ore. Mr Justice Harlan. — Von say • coast "; yon mean •• sprint; and coasi " added lof;e|her. Mr Phelps. - I ne'an Ihe .Ninth I'acilic. Sir Charles Russoll. — South of the Aleutians. Mr Phelps. — South of Ihe .\h'ulians, hefMre you enter Ihe itehriuf,' Sea. in IH'.II lhe.se vessels h.id increased (o l.'i, and Ihe c..as| catch Ihal year was 2(1,727. Mr Justice Harlan.— What is tin; lasl refoicnce, the one of I HIM ? Mr Phelps. — II is pa^i; 212. The President. — No. It is 2(i;i. I thiidv. Mr Phelps. — That is an averap- ..I' 5(17 skins to all the ves.sels during lh(^ whole three yeai's. .Now take the same years, and see what s.as done in Itehring Sea. In \HH\) there were Ihe vessids Ihal wc have an acconul of, and llurcatch was I5,i',l7 iniJehringSca.considerahly larger than 21 vess.ds l(.ok on Ihecoasl. In iHlMt, 2i vessels in Itehriug Sea took IN.KI:;. jn |,s',»l (Il ves.sels took 2S.HHS. Mr Justice Harlan. —Von say ill vessels. I see Ihe lahle says 'M vesstds. Mr Phelps. — Some of Ihem did not go inio the sea. These calenla- lioiis have been carefully made, and I am sure Ihey are acenrale. So that ill U scars. Sti x'sscls look iiisidi' llic si-ii ti^.Ji.'iO seals. The liiiic nrilic hohiiii}! Snas is sliorler. II is all coiiiiiriscd williiii .Inly anil .\iif;iisl. Till' coasl ciilcli lu'^iiisas sinin as llio vessels can ;;(i mil and il cerlaiiiK is simwii here jo have occii|iic(l, more or less. I''ebi'iiary, March, .Vpril, May and .liine. May and .lime liein^' inucii the largest monllis. This is an avciMfie til'T^? skins a vessel in licliiiiij; Sea. Mr Oram. — Is Ihal only in llie easlerii coasl of l?elirin^'Sea. Mr Phelps. — Yes. Mr Oram. — (\v in I lie .Asiatic' Mr Phelps. No llie easleni side. Mr Oram. - I IhinU llie weslein side i-^ incltided in llial: do no! yoii IhinK so? Mr Phelps. — II may he. Mr Oram. — Vou will lind il in Hie ('ommissioner. Iteporl paragraph (■)S. The President. — 'I'lial was the (irsl year of llie iimii'i/\ nvrndi. Mr Phelps. — Vcs Ihal aecomils for Hie si/e of llie calcli. II mnsi lie so — llie iiiiii/iis riri'/if/i was in operalion. Sir Charles Russell. Mr(iraiii isipiile ri^lil. Mr Phelps. — (ii-nenu i'.;sler ■^ays lliere is an cslimale lliere ol'ahonl .'ilMIO on Hie Asialic s de. 11' llicrisany imcerlainly ahoni lliosc li^iires. we will leler \oii lo Hie oilier Iwo lij;iires Ijial arc Mil'licieiil for my purpose I lliink your siij.',|;cslioii is correcl. II conlains a ccrlain aiiioiml lor Hie wcslcrn cah'li. Il does mil all'ecl Hie averajic. The averai;c, ynii will see .i'llie vessels on llii' coasl calcli was 'Mu and Hie average in IIk; Sea s727. Mr Justice Harlan. - I'lloie yon |c,i\c Ihal. I waul io ,isk as lo lliis lahlc. On "Jil.") lliere is a column llicrc " Mali' ol W'ariiiiii; '" doiw Ihal mean lliose vessels had i;ol iiilo Itcliriii;: Sea willioiil notice ol' Hie //fi/'///v rirriii/i ol' IH",(| and were warned oiil? Mr Phelps. >es Ihey j;ol into Ihc >.;i prcsiimalilv willioul liolicc. Till' iiKiilii-i did iiol conic iiilo ciVci'l lill .liiiic llic l.'illi "11 Hial il is ipiile pr dii'Me Hie vessel •;ol in willioul iiolicc. lull wlielher willi or willioul iiolice. Iliev were lliere. and wariicil on llio-.c dalc^. Sir Charles Russell. -- ^oii will s(>i> In |||<' ulliiiiale colniiiii lui Hie rijihl some never f;iil in. llie ollnr reprcsciils H111-.C ||i;i| f;(i| jn. The olhei's were iiol in. Mr Phelps. — Thai is so. Iiiil Ihose vesseU I have heeii dealiiij; willi are lliosc Ihal pd iiilo iichrin^' Sea. The President. — llive yon niadi! mil a lolal proporlimi of calcho in Itelirinj: Sea and calehes on Hie coasl'.' Mr Pholps. — Vc>. ill llii> way, — Ihal Hie aver,it;c for llu' vessels 111 llie .Ndrlli I'acilic oii Hie coa>i| is ."ili" llussian riovomiinMit, as well as litis Tribunal, lo in- form Iheni of the fruits of llieir (iiplomiicy. We had yesterday 10 vessels on the Chart. Now this Chart shows the course of 8 of those Canadian sealers w'-iiii we plolted yesierday or pointed out on the Chart yesterday, the only 8 lliat went went over lo Ihe IJussian Islands. There is no selec- tion because we plotted every one (hat we could. Mr Justice Harlan. — Where arc; the lo},'s of lh(>se vessels? Mr Phelps. — They arc in liie Uritish Counter Case, Volume II, Ap- pendix, page 187. The logs arc Ihcre. AOw, you see where those S vessels started in Ihe vicinity of Attn and A;;altu, belonging lo Ihe chain. You st!e the two llussian Islands, and around Ihein the red line indicates a MO-uiile /one; Ihe black lines show the (ourseof each vessel, so that it can be traced all the way round where it wcni. Vou will sec, in Ihe lirsl place, how few of !,i :sc vessels invaded Ihe .'{(I mile /one at all, — how lew lines there are whiiin the red circle Ihal indicates the 3l)-mile /one. The President. — You do no! show when' (lie Kussians made ihe sei 'urcs ? Mr Phelps. — No; we show Hie logs. Sir Charles Russell. — Thai is a Inel in dispule belwi'en Ihe Iwo Covernnieuls at present : but Iheir Mlle;;iilion is I hey were sei/.ed within the .'{-mile limit or in hol pursuit outside the ."? mile limit. .\s lo some, it is adinitled I hey were seized outside Ihe three mile limit. Mr Phelps. — We have plolted the logs of tli.' vessels, and iriv learnod friend has cirrectly slated the contention. The contention is that the boats had been within and then I'ourul withoid : I do not go into that. Ml we have is Ihe statement Ihal speaks for itself. The President. — That shows the log was not (piite aceuratc. Mr Phdlps. — That is hue. It is open to this erilicism. We have taken Ihe logs of these vessels, not of the vessels seized. The President. — iNone of these. Mr Phelps. One I .n,! ' )ld was, and Ihe other seven were no! We have taken the logs of ile'^e vessels, and traced lliem on the iiia|i«. If the logs arc false or li 'lilii us then, of course this amounls l^^ iiothing, i)ul assuming Ihe i.>i';swire enri'ecl because 7 cd" them weie iiol seized or complained of, vou see where lhi> sealing was done. Then if \ou cist youreyi's upon Ihe black jioints indicated at the point- of Ihe angles and courses outside', you will see where seals wen^ laken according to this log and Ihe number where the eatcli is more than ."ill in a dav inside Ihe :W» mile zone is given whatever it is, vvlielher more than ."ill lU' lutl, Ihe actual number of seals shown to :ive been taken bv IIm^ log, within*! miles, is shown on the map outside of the 30-mile zom<. Onlv ibo.se r. a 20-mile zone roand Ihe I'ribilof islands, when nine-li'nihs of IIm; seals ar(> iakiti) out- side il and lime iiniilcd belween Ihe t.'ilh of ScplendaT and Ihe first of the following .July when no sealing at all would be done in Hehring Sea if Ihere were no time limil. is llml Ihe result of Ihe high-sounding and con-- lanllv repealed slalenieni on Ihe pari of liical Itrilain all llirough this diplomalic correspondi'uce llml llicv \\i>re i-eady lo join and lo do every- thing thai is necessary for llic prolcction of Ihe seals? Is thai Ihe resull of Ihe language of Ibis Tniitv in Ihe Article llial has been so ol'len I'cad ? Is il a compliance willi llic hinguagc? h i| oH'criMl as a compliance wilh il' U il al .ill ill I'liiiroi'iiiilv wilh Hie iiislriiclioii>^ \\hicli llial (iovern- menl as well as ours gave lo Ihe (!oiiimi>^siouei'< who oiiglil lo have sel- lled Ibis ipieslion ami would have si.|i|eil \Wi< i|iie<|i(iii if liolii sides had addressed llieinselves loil, il il hail mil liiriied oul one side was addressing itself lo iho(|ueslion of what isneiessar^ and Ihe oilier side was address- noi — iiip; itself to llie biisirioss of preserving at all hazards, and in every possible way, and not only preserving but increasing, tlie business of pelagic sealing? .Nothing ean be addeil lo that in the way of state- ment. Now, a few words, and bid a few. in respect to llie Regulations that have been submitted by the Ihiiled Slates. If the prohibition of pelagic sealing is not necessary to the preservation of the seal, then there would be no warrant for adopting su.li a Itegidalion. We do not, for one moment, claim and have never claimed that anvthing should be done here to im- prove or bcnelii the l)usiness of Ihe |l|iiled Slates in this industry, to give them a monopoly, i do not ainounl lo much; hul we invite allentioii to tliat. If it is loo far, why, of cour>ie, you will limit it, bearing in mind that we do not claim anylhiiif; more Ihnii is necessary. riicre are llie two propositions on the one side and on the other. TluM'e is tlic Treaty tlial di'(iii(>s tin' dispute between Ihese parlies, the object anil purpo-c ul tliis Arbilration. If this part of tlie case is reached, there is n duty lo discliaru;e which the Tribunal has been kind enou},'h lo accept at Ihe re(pii'>t, and upon Hie instance of Iheir Governments. There is Ihe evidence that points out th(> limits lo which tlie dischar{;;(! of that dutv must inevitably carry it ; and when I say inevilal)ly i do not mean lo say. wliile \\(> liavc adopted thai 3."i" is the best one, the judi- cious one, tlie true one, that the dill'erence biitweeu i-0 and ',)"> is iiievil- able. We simply sugf,'esl that as a proper boundary, as a just one, as a fair one, not meaniii};, of course, lo sa\ with Hie contideiice with which I have said some things here, llnil it i» d)solnlely necessary lo go lo that extent. Now a few worils, and but a lew on another topic, and thai is ano- ther subject connected with Itegulatious — namely, for the enforcement. I misunderstood, owing lo not having had the advantage of reading my leariieil friend's remarks vesterday as it turned out from his correction, what he had proposed, and lor that, id' course, I should a|)i)logi/.e and con- sider the case upon what I understand now that he does propose, and that is, Ihat a vessel seized for violalion of any Hegulations thai the Tribunal slinuld impose and Uie country should adopt, should be lninil"d to the llri- lish aiilhorilies to be dealt with — Hie error I made perhaps of cmelessly listening and perhaps from an extraordinary faculty of forgellitig I am — 230;t — favoured with — was lliat, inslnad of lumdinj:; over the vessels, wo were to make application and complaint in respect of them, lint onr Hernia- tion, on llie other hand provides for the seizing of such infrin{j;in},' vessel and taking; her into the ports of the l'nih;d Slates to be proceeded willi in Courts invested with such jurisdiction by our Statutes on the principle of what is known as prize law, and you need not he told, as all lawyers un- derstand, ijiat the principles of pri/c law do not exclude the nation to whose citizens the seized vessel belongs. It condemns the vessel, but it does not exclude the nation from asserting a claim based upon the diargc that Ihe vessel was impropcily condemned, so that if we seize a vessel and lake her into the United Stales where the jurisdiction is in IIk; Kederal Courts — this shows jtu'isdiction and that distinction, the value of it the lawyers umlerstand, because in the newer Slates in the mere provinciaM'.onrts tiien; is not perhaps the entire freedom from local pn;- judice as there will be when the country is older and as liiere is now in the older .Vmeriean States, and therefore the vesting of this jm-isdiction, as our Constitution docs carefully, and (everything wiiicli may take an in- ternational relation \>itli another country, in Ihe Kederal (iourls isa very wise one for Ihe pur|>ose of sucuring other nations against being atfected by the aclion of Judges or of Jurors or the pressure of local prejudice or sectional feeling oranslliing of that kind. It is proposed on the other hand, and this is all that we are at issue about, that if we seize a vessel instead of taking her to our own port, we shall take her lo a British I'orl; that is Ihe dill'erence. Thai the C.ourls of oilier nations would proci-ed in good j'ailli in ihe judgment they would render is a matter of course. We do not assume the justice to be done by the Federal Courts would not be done by the Courts of [Jritish Colmnbia or whatever the province was but the same pointarises Ihat arose between Creul llrilain and Hussiaand was set forlh by MrCliichkine in which this wasijchated. You seize a vesselin Iteiiring Sea. Vou can do nothing but make a long voyage to IJritish Columbia. There is no port nearer than that. Vou have lo dispatch a v(!ssel that ought lo be on guard Ihure. doing duly, Ic carry that vessel Ihrough Ihe sea a voyage of I do nol know how many thousand miles. There is a prac- tical difliculty in the way of that. Sir Charles Russell. — I am bound to point out to my learned friend that that difliculty has been met, by the legislation of the two countries concerned. It can only be eU'ectcd by the legislation of the two countries. The Hindus riremli bclwen »aissia and Great Britain has been given elfecl to by legislation, which was only passed a few days ago, indeed il was when 1 was in London the oilier day, and a substitute is r rovided under the act and if it is nol convenient to hand over a Hr' -.sh vessel seized by Itiissian authority lo a Itrilish aulliority, then llii papers or vessel may be tran^mitliHl and action taken on them by Mrilish aulliority, Mr Phelps. — In its practical result il comes lo what I e\aclly mi^iiii- derslood my learned friend as having proposed in the lirsl instance. Vou — •.':t04 — ilo nol si'izo llio vf'>iscl, hut ym send an applicalion, iicconiimnied by piipcrs \Nliirli arc; '^i»h\ as lar as llicv •^k. Io IIic oHhm side lo prticci'd, and llial is lli(3 poinl. II' IIk.-v do nol prucced yon lia\o a diplonialic corres- pontlcrici'. Lord Hannen. — To wlioiii arc lliu papers lo he Iraiismillud? Sir Charles Russell. — In IIm' casi! of an i;n'ili>li vessel seized hy lUissian aiitiiorilN — laUen or eop\ laUen liy llie llussian aulliority and Irunsniilted lo Hie luifilisii aniliorily. Lord Hannen. —Thai is lo say wilhin llie Kn},'iisli judicial aniliorily. Sir Charles Russell. — Yes. Lord Hannen. — And yon proceed on llie papers as if the vessel were Ihere. Sir Charles Russell. — Ves each (lovernmenl nitdcrlakos lo prosecnle. Mr Phelps. — W iial hcconies of Hie \essel.' Here is a vessel llial. on llie llit'ory nl' the case, is \i(ilaliii^ Ihe laws nf hiilh coniilries. Sir Charles Russell. — II is ihariiid with violaliiij;. Lord Hannen. riie vessel i-ed. Lord Hannen. I'cihaps yon can ijela <'opy of the .\i|? Sir Charles Russell. — Ves. Mr Phelps. A copy \v;i- -enl In nir fidin Ihe AniericMii I'lmhassy, hilt I iiuve iKij had lime |o read il: I only kiinvv thai Ihere is sncli an Acl. \(i\v. -lup .1 nioiiii III and rclliMl ; here you are in Ihe Itelirin^ .Sea. Tlierc is III) \iiieii( Mil I'orl iieanr lliaii Ihe Iniled Slales, and lU) Hrilisli pdil nearer Ihaii Urilish ('.uliinihi:i. The I niled Slales' cruiser seizes a ves-i'lcau;;lil red-handed in Ihe act andcapalde of doiiifi it, — a criminal \e«sel. sii to speak, if that is a cnrrccl i'\pres-iuii, and lakes her papers and -i'ihU llieiii home. There is iiu mail IVoiii there. Vdii liav.' In keep them till the I niled Slale>' cruiser reiiclio some .Vinm-ican porl, when, hv sciinc American oflicial, llic-e papers can he forwarded In Canada. Where is llu vessel in Ihe meanlime? Von an' dealiiiu. I say. with a vcs-elthal is nil' for Ihe piirpn-e nl' Milaliiii; Hie hiu and Ue^nlations; \ihle ship. \ on aii dealin;; with a Iramp of Ihe ocean ; and where is Hie vessel in Hie meantime.' Is il piinj; hack to surrender ilself al Itritixli Cnlnmhia for Ihe sake of liein^ coii- demiicir.' W'iial iiileresi i» llieii' in a coiinlry . where all Hie ssiiipalhy is all Hie nlhcr w.iy. in pmsecnlini; this vessel.' The President. — They are re^islorod vessels and <'Overeil hy a llug. Mr Phelps. - Ves. The President. — If Hiev do harm in one year, they will not cenlinne In (In II lllih'lililli'ly. Mr Phelps - If Ihey are iml eonilemiied, Ihcy will n il ^d home, — uo ship of Unit <'liiirucU!r. I du iiol deal now with a ves-d mi an iiprij^hl — -2m:\ - II- hv 111' errand wliich, hnvinp; a false charge brought againsl il would go home and incel it at once. The President. — But u ship cannot become a vagrant on llie high scus uuh'ss il is a |)iriile. Mr PhelpH. — No, but il can go to some other port and siieller ilscU' un- der another Hag. I poinlc ;i- lliiil Hie ciiiirse of jiislice is sure lo have its way. Sir Charles Russell. — .\iid in tsicii cii^e il is handed over to the powers of the nalioiial- it represents, as is provided in llej inoiliis viconili. Mr Phelps. — Tb^ve is a very gieal dilTerenee, allow me to observe, belwci'ii vessels seized in Ihat pari of Hie world where to eiirry Hieni into an immediate port is easy, and where escape is impossible. I deal not with a theoretical ilil'ticully, liiil with a |inielieal one: and. a< Sir .lohn Tlioii)p>->>ii will nndei'liee in any case brought before lliein. The diflieiilly i- not (here. II is in iielliii;: the vessel into Ihe jurisdiction, gelliiii; Hie case before Hie courts. II is a practical diriieiiily. Mr Justice Harlan. — Ai-'onling to vonrview lbt>n, the oni\ dilleicMice — '2.106 — in llio vossfil wliicli in sui/cul in liolirin^ Sen, is wiicllii'r ynii simil lake thai vcsst'l lu lilt! nt'itresl American port, or the nearest ISritisli port. Mr Phelps. — Vi's, or noarcsl Uritisli or AnuM'icaii vessol. Mr Justice Harlan. — I ili*' »<>l mean lo say thai lliat could l>n done villioiil, perhaps, some i'nrllier le;,'islalioii. That may or may nol he. Mr Phelps. — No. 1 do not lake up loo inueli time in dealing' with a snbjecl llial does nol depend upon evidence, and whicli, Iherelon*, llie emiiMMil jm'isls and lawyers I am addressinj; are enlirely maslers ol", and do nol need inslriiclion IVom nw or IVoin lis upon. I have an oliserva- tion or two I'nrllier lo make ahoiil lliis. As 1 have said, a vessel con- demned in llie I'liijfd Slales. hy liie opei'alion ol' prize law, is not con- clusive; hilt if (lie vessel is taken into Itritish C.olninhia and is not condemned and is discharfjed it is conclusive, as far as I can see, prnc- liealiy: I do not see how the American (lovernment practically could deal with such a question. Now anollier (pieslioii, \Vn got tlics(! proceediii;;s for the proloclion of maritime rif,'lils arisin;; in one way or anollier, so loiif; as they are rights of the iisa};es of nations -- we (leriv(> lliem hy analoj,'y. Now in wlial case, I resp('c|fully invite llie Trihiiiial to consider, when a vessel exposes ilself lo sei/iire hy violation of any marilime rifjlit, no matter what it is — in wlial case is it known that llie vessi>l is not con- demned in the coiinlry of the caplor? If yon choose, of coiii'se, in makiiif; a Treaty, lo make a (lilVereiit provision, then that hinds the par- ties as every other lliing does; hut I would respeclfnlly suhmil lo Ilia Lordship, with his very larjte experience in this particular hranch of the law, more prohahly than has fallen lo the lot of either of Ihe other mem- hers of the Trihiiiial, even of Mr .hislice Harlan of the United States Supreme (loiirt, — in what case, unless a Trealy provides for it, is a vessel that is seized for a violation of a maritime rij^lit of a nation carried any where else? Lord Hannen. — Will yon allow me lo make an ohsorvalion? I have iilreadv indiralcd wlial I am ahiuil lo sa\, llial I do nol recognize there is any such lliiii^^ as prize law, except in llie case; of war; and you are askiiifi; us hy our regiilalions to fiive yon the same right in peace as there would he in war. II is nolhiii^lo Hie purpose, 'riieie arecijriain I'oiirls lluit have prize jurisdiclion. Prize law pro|terly spesikin^c onlynrises in case of war. The President. — As admilled hy other nalions. Mr Phelps. — 1 tpiite concur in his I,ordsliip's remark llial prize law- is applicahle lo a helli^ereiil slate. nenator Morgan. — That is a .somewhat recent idea. IVize law ori- ffiiialed nol in a stale of war, hut ori},'inated in Ihe lij^lit of reclamation and in reprisal. Marquis Venosta. — i Ihiiik that hy the convenlion for Ihe prol;!clion of llic siihmarine cahle, a piihlic ollicial has Ihe right to ask for the papers that make a record and to denounce Ihe olfender. That right is lulmilled hy the provisions of the Treats. — i.)()7 — Sir Charles Hussell. — II is so. mid I ilo iidI "ink iii\ IcurriLMl IVii'iid has reali/.od wliiil is llic cllccl of laKiiij; llio ship' ,|n'i's oi' iiidorsiiif; llic sliip's |ia|tors. Tho iiiomciil llial is doiic, when llic slii|i iiiaKcs I'nr ;iny (lorl, slio caiiniil ^cl mil (ifllinl |i(ii'l willniiil I'lcmiii^ iiiid \silliiiiil IIk; assoni I'l' llic auliiorilii's, iiiul il' she lias im |ia|ii'i-s. she is in lli<- jnris- iliolioii ol' lli(! Loral (Idiirl, wlialevfr il is, IIiihc, aiiii iii.iv Ik' sei/ed lor llio oH'oiire indorsed ii|>oii llio |ta|)ci's. Mr Phelps. I was only going in loncliision lo advcrl lo llii! lan- guage of llic |)ro|ioscd ilcgiilalions in reply lo Lord llaniien's snggcslion Ihal in ease ol'aiiv siieli eapliin! (he vessid may lie lakon inio any poii ol" lliu nation lo wliicdi llie eaplnring vessel hclongs and (•oiidenincd hy proceedings in any Conrl ol' eonipeleiil jiiri^dielion. wliieli proceedings shall lie eonducliMl, as far as mas he, in accordance with Ihc cipiirsc and praclice orCoiirlsol' AdniiiiilU when silling as prize Coinis. II is propo- sed thai llic inrisdiclion should lie given Ihal is analogous as laras iiiav he or course, I do not suppose thai in Ihc >lricl lechnical language of the law, a vessel of this sort would he regarded as prize — thai is ipiilo iinnecessarv lo discuss. Il is taken under Hie provisions ol'llie 'rrciily; linl, Sir, I do not care lo pnrsiie this snliji'd. Mr Justice Harlan. — I'.el'ore von leave Ihal, I want lo ask Sir Ciiarles Hiissell whellier he doiihls the power of llii' Trilinnal lo piil into oiir Hegnlalions, il' we gel lo llegiilalions, some such clause as is in Ihe iiitidm rirriiili {)\ iiS'.li*. I do not nniliM'sland von. Sir Charles, lo dispute onr power lo do that. Iinl lo insist lliiil Ihal would hi' iiieH'cclive till supplemenlcd hy legislalion. Sir Charles Russell. — Von have nnderslaled onr sulmiission, Sir, as ex|)laiii(>d hy holli mvseH'and my learned Tried, Si llichard Wehster. Our position is ll;is, that when Ihc llegiilalions are laid down h\ lliis 'rrihunal each I'owei' is hound lo respecl those liegiiialions and hoiiinl lo give ell'eel lo lliein hy legislalion ol' their own ; hut Ihal is mil in Ihe power of this Trihunal, wlial legislalion Ihe particular I'ower is lo carry oiil. or Ihe maehincrv, in oilier words. Thai is In he jell lo Ihe respective Powers, and ihal is whal is done under Ihe .Ian Mavcii (lonvenlion. ■Mrliram is conversant wilh that suhjec!, and I rererii'd — anil I lliiiik m\ learned Irieiid Sir liichard Wehster according In Ihe .Ian .Maven r.ouvenlion as all'ording Ihe examph.' whicii we siiggesl ran he followed hy this Trihunal. Thatislhcview (iriiieTrealv which I and my learned friends respect fulls coidend for and suhinil hir Ihe Trihunars coiisideralioii. Mr Justice Harlan. — We eonld not Ihen, in your view, provide that the vessid seized siiould he turned over to eillier (ioverumenl. Sir Charles Russell. — (»ur suhmi>si(m i> that llial must he left lo Ihe rc>pective Powers, to give ell'eel to il, as it cannot he doiihled each I'ower will. The President. — Whatever provision we make will iiol have legis- lative force till it is Inrned into legislalion in each i nunlrv ; hiii we have the right lo propose the suhslauce of the legi.sUilion thai is lo intervene. 2'JI — i,i(iH - Sir Charles Russell. — 1 liavi; ricvcr siiid niulliin^ willi tli'I'cri'ticc, lu iuliiiil llii' ri^Hil of this Ti'ihiiiial lo sii\ llial a vessel sei/ed lieloii^^iii;; Id (ileal Itrilain sIhmiIiI Im; liikeii h\ llie Aiiierieaiis iiilo an American |iiii'l ami lliere ailiml^eil nr ritf rrrsn. I lia\e never said anylliin^ inlenlion- alK lo llial eit'eel, and if I hav(> inatl\ei-lenll\ done so, 1 slionid (lee|i|y refjrel it. I lia\e Hie passages Itofoi'c wo where we disenssed il. The President. — Voiir npinion is llial sinli Ke^'iilididns oti^^lil nol lo lie made. Sir Charles Russell. — And more llian llial. llial liiis Triliuiial may lay down Ite^tulalions. Iml Nse snlimil Id Ihe iiiurl llial llie eiil'Drcem'.'nl ol' lliese Ite^iilaliims mii>l lie li-l'l Id llie dill'erenl eDiiiilries. Mr Justice Harlan. — Vun den\ llial s\e eaii make ji llegnlaliaid whal Ihev jndm' is lair and eiiiiitahle, il lea\es tin- iiiDial iihli^atiDii dii each power ade(jnalely hy leiiislalimi to i;ive ellecl to the ohscrvanee ol' liioso Henu- latioiis. Senator Morgan. — And Diii\ that. Sir Charles Russell. — I do nol know thai any dil'licnlty has arisen up 111 this lime in an\ of Ihe i'isherv (lonveiitions. The President. — H'wc leave Ihe ease in such a siliialiDii Ihal Ihe Iwo nations are lel'l lo do things which we know Ihal Ihev will iml do. wliicii is opposed lo llieir views, we shall have done iiolhin^. Sir Charles Russell. - - We caiiiiot ri'alise Ihal, Sir. as a result al all. The President. SujipuM' we make a lle;;nlaliDii, and do iiol speak ul' Ihe maiiiier in which il is to he eiirori'cd. Sir Charles Russell. — We have the nunhi^ I'lrvmii as a f;DDd iiluslra- tiun. The President. — The niuiliis rivi'nili has a Ite^nlaiiDii. Sir Charles Russell. — And it is enloiced hy Ihilish Ite^idalions. and •i:i(Mi — lu I do mil (liiiil)l siiiiilai' Krilisli Li'gisliilion wniildrollosv on yxir lli'^dliilinns. Mr Justice Harlan. — Siiiiposo llmt piulH ol' llio umili/s rin'ni/i wen'. ill siihshinic. |iiil in (Ik; Ki-^iiiiiliinis, would you doiihl llicvniidilv of thai williHiil saving' il would I'lirnrn' jlscH'. Sir Charles Russell. — I liav<> already said lliir lu i'X|ii-(>ss siiiirlions. The President. — Such as aro rmhodii'd iu llic imnlus v/rftn/i .' Sir Charles Russell. — Vos. Mr Gram. \Vi' have an iiislaiirc in Iho C.onpi r.onvcnlion. II cuuld iiol he rnrorci'd wilhonl Li'^'islalidii in carh roiinlrN. Marquis Venosta. — TIkm-i- an' nian\ Tivalii's includiiif; Ihc luodc nl' proi'i'i'dinj; and inudc iij' ciiron'ini; ilic IVraly, and llicrc l.i'jiislalion is rc- qiiircil. There is llie ('.(Mivenlioii lor the prolcclion ol' Hie snhniariiie eahle. There is ;i iriiiile ill' |)ron'ediii)r lor Ihal : a ("■onveiilioii lor Hie h'is- lierie» in I he NiPiHi Sea, and I here is m mode nr|iriieeedin,i; for Ihal. There are Arlieles in Hie Treah, and lliose Trealies, ni' euurse, reiinire Iie;;isla- lion. Iinl Hie mode III' |iroi'oeiliii^' I'or Hie |inr|iose of eiil'iirein^' Ihe provi- sions III' Ihe Tiealx Sir Charles Russell. — Was lel'l lo Li';;islaliiiii '.' Marquis Venosta.- Ve-, Iml i> e>|;ililislied li\ an Arliele nl' llieTrenjv. Sir Charles Russell. — Ne^: In Ijnil ease. In Ihis presenl ea>e, iUo. leriiis of Ailjeje \'l, whieli. ol' eonrse, woiilil he in Iho niimis nt'lhe Trihii- nal, are Ihal Ihe .\rhilralors shall then delermine whal ninenrrenl llejju- lallons are neressary, nolhin^' i>. said ahoni whal Ihe sainlion lor llioso Arlihies iiiighl lo he. I do mil rmisider Hie i|iiesliiin of any praeliial im|iorlani'e. The President. — The Trihunal imisl reserve lo ilsell' lo examine Ihal (|nes|iiin, and wi' will see whal we thinU ahoiil il. Mr Phelps. — I'erhaps il liirns mil I was nol so muili mistaken jos- li'i'day with regard lo Ihe piaelieal iiiilninie of my learned rrieiid's pro- posal as he led me III Ihink I was, whieh nirreelion I have adopled. II depends on whieh mrlliml -hall he resnrled to nol |ii do Ihe Ihiii;; Ihal is experled In he ihiiie. ii\ wliiili eireniloiis result von shall reaihihe result oriiiidin^ niil how nol lodo il. I do nol propose to disenss Ihal. I am more JikeU In he mislakeii llian almosi anvlioih else, heeansi^ I liaM' nol lireii al.je lo pm-^iiaile inV'-eir whal is ^oiii^ lo he Ihe resnil of this ease, and Ihis very diseussion, ihe diseiission whieh springs up jho niomeiil yon allempi Ihis Imsiness ol' ile|iri\iii^ a nalion of a ri^hl upon some ahslrael Iheiiry that il is not a rijiht allhoiifih il is so necessary to Iw doll" Ihal Villi will eiimpel anolher nalion lo Indp Ihem to do il — the momeiil yon enter iipi>n an inipiiiy ul' thai kind we perceive the eirhar- rassmeiil. Then why any liefiiilations at all. If we have nol Ihe pro- perly rij;hl liei-e — lherii;hl ol' proleeliiii; ourselves Ihal we claim, why ^o any I'lirlher and have any Ite^Milalions? what claim have w > upon <> % -lion llial would emascnlale Ihose iiei;ulalioiis (if all force, Ihal you liavi; nol heen ciiter(ained with, Can anylhiiii; more clearh illiislralelhe ullerly preposleriuis llieory — 1 say it very respeclfully — preposterous in its rcsull. on which this whole dehate proceeds? i'lilhcr Ihese seals are necessary and proper lo he preserved on (he territory under (lie jurisdiclion where they helong, under the circiimslances where they are found, for the purpose for which \oii preserve lliem, that is, to enahle Ihel'nited Stales lo administer (his iiidus(r\ — Ihal is all. It is either so, or not, so. Ifso, the rijiiit of the rnitedSlates re-iills ine\itahly from thai slate of things. If not so, upon wlial theory are yon going lo force anotlier nation against ils willtoadopt regulations for our hiMiefit. The President. — I am afraid ymi pu( (lu; rase a liKle far, hi;caus(! we caiinol admit the Ijijiish (ioveriiment is not s\isliiiig to preserve and |iro- leel properly the I'ur .eat. in ur haliilually resorting lo liehring Sea, ai'lcr (he lirilish (loverni. 'id has signed a Trealy lo (halctrccl in virtue of which we here sit. Mr Phelps. — That depends. Sir, with much respect, upon whether you read the Trealy or listen lo my learned friends. I have endeavoured (o poin( out tlu; wide discrepancy lielween llie profession and Ihepraclice; hetween Ihc promise and the perl'ormance. The Trealy does go upon llie sli|iiilali(iii ; Iml what is the argument here? Why. my learned friend, Mr lldhiiisdii, piM'haps not noticing the force of his (d)ser\a(ion, says. If yon do so and so we should lie worse oif than if we accorded the right lo you. \Vi> should lose (;vei'\lliiiig, and still he charged with helping lo iiioiinl guard oxer (he inleresls we have heen deprived of. We should hcwiirse oil' if the inleresls forwliich we have heen cdiileiiding, which ho has heen frank enough lo say is this hiisiiiess of jielagic sealing — if you lake , he Trealy correspondence and iiislruclions you liiid two nations here met in a <'oiiinioii purpose and no man can give a reason why Iliey reipiire aiiv assistance in accompli'^hiiig that coinmou purpose, if they are al one with regard lo il — hut when vou come lo lake the proceedings hefore Iliis Triliniial \oii liiid nolhing is more ingeniously and earnestly urged, from evcsry possihie point of view, than (he adoplion o'' any regu- lation thai would realK aU'ecl the very purpose; forwliich in theory, and under the provisions of this Trealy, the Trihunal is assendiled. — 2311 — The President. — II means lliey do no! oji;roe as lo means. Mr Phelps. — II is more than llial. II (urns oiil from llieir fliscus- sion we are so tar disagroocl with reference lo llie means llial wo arc disa- greed willi reference lo the ohjcct. I submit that to your consideration wilhoul further observation, which would not cli'?idate it. I had designed, but at this late hour I shall not go back to mention one topic out of its order Lhat I had omitted, because at its appropriate lime the reference did nol happen lo be in Com't, and later Ihan that the convenient lime did not come in. I allude to it only for a single remark, and it is tlie subject of the Newt'oiindland Fisheries, as Ihey were spoken of in the United States Argument, and to which my learned friends made quite an elaborate reply, citing from L\ man's I tiplomalic Correspondence, and some debates in the Brilisli Parliament. I designed to review that. 1 will make only one single remark, and I only wish it shall not be un- derslood that we have asserted anything in this argument that we find it necessary to withdraw from. The statement which will be founded and supported by (he quotations in the Appendix is strictly accurate in that respect. The Tisheries were granted lo the Americans in the Treaty of 1783 after the {{evolutionary War, not because they were open to the world, but because they were open to the .\merican and Hrilish subjects, and it was conceded on bolli sides in that correspondence, except for a single observation of Lord iiathursl " : passing, who had nothing to do with the negolialions, which is evidently a mistake on his pari — there is nothing in the world lo contradict that. It was conceded these JMshcries, far out into (he sea at that lime belonged lo Croat Hrilain, and only as iJritish subjects could tlie liiited Stales lake part in them. It was held so for along time, and 1 thiidv the rights of France are under a simi- lar arrangement. Wiietber they have since been thrown open to the world is another ([ueslion I do not care to discuss. I only allude to it for the |)urpose of iisserting rcspecK'nIly the strict accin-acy of the position taken on (hat subject in the linitod Slates' Argument, whether it has much or little to do with llie question wo have discussed. This is the case of the United Slates' CovernmenI: how imperfectly presented, as far as I am concerned, no one knows as well here or feels as sensibly as I do. It !sacase,Sir, I respecll'idh suggest, that noAmerican need blush for. Its propositions of law, its absohilo (rulhfidness of fact, its honest and stnughtforward i)roceduro, seeking no advantage and taking none, they are all before llie Tribunal and before Ihe world. We stand upon the Justice of (his case. We have not found it necessary to admonish you lo beware of jusli<'e, of morality, of rigid, to refrain from doing the plain thing that on the face of this wholi> business ought to be done lest some unknown and impossible abstraction of theoretical law might be violated. That is nol our position. Wo have invoked justice. We have asserted thai it is the only principle on which international atfairs can proceed or ought lo proceed; and it will be a sad day for the world i* it ever reaches a contrary conclusion. — 2312 — Tlic };roal controversy Hia( is involved liere. lii\ have agreed 10 do, they will do. On llielar{;er (luesdon llial I have referred to, the decision of Ibis Tribunal is not liiial. From Ihat (here is an inevilahle apjteal lo the general sense of mankind. None will be niore;;r'alilie(l llian Ihe members of Ibis Court that it is so; Ihat Ihe opinion of .lurisls, ol Lawyers, of Publicists will follow with inleresi, and approve or (lisap|)rove, and I cannot doubt that they will a|)prove the conclusion that you arrive at. U will be a source of satislaction to you that the still belter appeal to the ullimale judgment of [civilised men also will follow and approve the conclnsion of Ibis Court. Thai is nol lo be douhled. II is, Sir, with a conlidence that is predicted upon llial justice of the American case Ihat 1 have alluded to, that is inspired i)y Hie high character of Ihe Tribunal Ibattbcsc nations have been forluiiate enough lo bring togelherand streng- thened by the anxious soUicilude Ihat every member of il has shown Ihrough this long and wearisome discussion to rcMcli a riglil conclusion, — il is with that confidence that the United Stales' (iovernmenl submits this case lo your consideration. The President. — .Mr IMielps, Ihe dii'licull part has been thrown upon vou lo s|)eak the concluding words in Ibis very elo(|uenl debaleafler your Iriends on either sidj bad striven lo maki^ Ihe task more arduous for you. 11 has been discharged in smdi a manner as fully to deserve our admira- lion, blending the deep science of thi^ lawyer with literar\ relinemenland diplomatic dignity. We appreciated Ihe delicate, even when pressing touch with which yon have gone over mailers pul before us in manifold form. I beg I may be allowed lo I'onsider Ihe laurel \on have won ;it Ibis osmopolilan bar as a fair addition to Ihe wicatli (if honors which vou conquered on dill'M'enl lields bollt in Ihe i\ew and in Ihe .\ncienl World. Sir Charles Russell. — Mr President, we have now so far as discus- sion is concerned arrived al an end of Ibis anxious and prolracted proceed- ing. There is one word Ihat I should like lo be perniillcd lo say, a word thai I am (piite certain will receive full endoi'senieiil from my learned friends. The word thai I desire lo say, .Mr I'resideni, is for my collea- gues and nnself lo express our deep gralilude tor lln; iinvarving palience and courlesv with which we hav(> been Irealed by everx Member of Ibis Tribunal. I should like lo be allowed lo add also how fully we recogniz(^ the manner in which your proceedings and our labours have been assist- — -2:i[A — ed and rendered easy by the cooperation, active and courteous, of tiie Secretaries and Assistant Secretaries of the Commission itsell'. We ought also (o recognise (lie courtesy which we iiave received from the Secreta- ries, of (ho individual monibers of (he Triitunal with whom we have ne- cessarily been brought more or less in contact. Mr ['resident, we shall all of us have for many years to come a most grateful recollection of the courtesy and kindness we have re- ceived . The President. — I thank you, Sir Charles, in our names for all of us, and llu- other gentlemen, for your courteous words; and certainly, as you say, the remembrance you will keep will be in the memories of all of us as long as we are alive. Mr Phelps. — I may be idlowcd I hope. Sir, for my .Associates and myself, as well as for my Government, to express my cordial concurrence in what has been so well said by my learned friend, the .Attorney General of Enrland every word of it. I think the members of the Tribunal, other than yourself. Sir, may be gratified if I venture to add one further word to what my learned friend has said, and (o express the sense tha( we all entertain, I am sure, on that side of the table as well as ours, of the great ability, the faultless cour- tesy, and the acute perception which has kept this discussion within its proper boundaries, which has characterized your administration, Sir, of the diflicult oflice of President of (his Tribunal. That position was ac- corded (o you, Sir, by your dis(inguishe(l colleagues, not merely on account of voim- personal lituess, a (ilness with which they mi"-Iit well have shared, each of lliem, to a cerlain cx(ent, undoubtedly, but in ac- knowlcdgiuenlof (he more than generous hospitality thai we have had from your Country during (he whole of these proceedings ; and if I may intrude far enough (o add a word for myself personally, I feel that, perhaps more than auN other of the Counsel wiio have been charged with the conduct of this case on either side, I have been personally indebted to your own courtesy, and that of all the members of the Tribunal for your great consi- deration and kindness. I have no language to express my appreciation of it. Sir. !( will re- main with me one of those happy memories that form (he best inheritance of declining years. The President. — We thank you again, Mr I'helps, and for myself I have tried m\ best to be impartiid. That is the onlv thin". As for my Country, Trance has been honoured by (he choice of your two Governments in regard (o I'aris. her chief town, as the phice where (Ids Tribuiud was to meet, and wluil you are pleased to say of the French hospitality is wha( we consider has been but sour due. Sir Charles Russell. — I have mentioned this matter (o my friend. Sir. and if that meets witli the approval of (he Tribunal, I would sug"esl, if any requisilion slioidd be found necessary for the Tribunal for further elucidation on any point, we might agree (ha( the re((uisi(ion should be — i3H — in writing, and thai the answer In it on each side should also be in wri- ting. I do not know Ihal we need suppose Ihe possibility or jirobabilily of such a question. If tiie question should arise, we should suggest that sucii course should he taUen. The President. — The Tribunal will take heed of wliat you mention. \Vc cannot bind ourselves or preclude from ourselves tiic right and proper dutv conferred upon us by Ihe Treaty lo remain at liberty to ask for any suppleniealary. either oral or written or printed, slatemenl. In case wo do we will give notice, and at any rate, as much as possible, we will abide by the requisition you have put upon us. Mr Phelps. — We quite concur on our side in Ihe suggestion of my learned friend, subject always lo the approval of Ihe Tribunal. The President. — The Tribunal will now lake the case into its deli- beration : and in case any now meeting is necessary, which we do not an- ticipate as yet, we will give notice to the .\genls of both (iovernments, who will instruct Counsel in consequence. Mr Tupper. — I may say, .Mr President, and I think 1 can say it for ("lencral Foster, if he will allow me, both be and 1 will be in allendancc upon the .\rl)ilralion, al all timer ''eady to meet any calls that may be made upon us. The President. — We thank you. and are bapi)y to know that we can rely upon it. APPENDIX COITION IN THE WATER Aquatic coilion is suggested by tlie Britisii Commissioners. See Sees. 2i(), 29o-2'.)7 ol'liieir report. But they do not claim ever to hiwe seen it. Tliey refer : [a] To" four or live gentlemen ". NVlio and wlierc are lliey? What liave tlicy said? Wliat do they know? They do not appear in the evidence taken in tiie British Counter Case. What has become ol' them? [It) To " several intelligent and observant hunters". \\'\\o are they? NN'hcre are they? Wiiat have they said? Such matter is not evidence : it is not even hearsay. (c) To Captain Bryant. Read what he says in" Monograph of North American Pinnipeds ", pp. SS,') and 405. In his deposition (U. S. Case, App., Vol. II. p. <)) he says : In watcbinf; the seals whilo swiiuniing about the islands, 1 bave soeii cases wIilmc Ibcy appeared to be copulaling in tlie water, but I am cerlain, even if tliis was llio case, that the propagation of the species is not as a rule effected in this way, tlie natural and usual manner of oniliuM beingupou land. If Captain Bryant's statement in llie Monograph be correct, most am- ple proof of it should be forthcoming. But tlie evidence of those most able to observe is directly to the contrary (see infni). ((/) Professor ball. The foUoNNing evidence of this genlleman, published at page 3.o9 of the United States Counter Case, fulK explains his former statement ; I learn that I have been (|Uoled in the report of the British UehringSea Commis- sioners for the purpose of proving that coilion at sea is practiced by the seals. In connection therewith I bave to say that my statements as lo copulation in thi; \\ater rest largely upon assumption. Young bachelor seals are seen to chase females leaving the rookeries and lo play with them in the water; pairs of seals are seen engaged in a sort of struggle together and lo remain caressing each other or appa- rently (|uiescenl, sometimes for as much as an hour. From such facts, which 1 myself with others observed and reported, it was considered not unlikely that these '2'J2 — --'Illli — seals wPi'o of niiimsilu scxos, ami thai lliuy wuro engagud in copulalioii, and, in llio aliscnci! uf (li'linilo inlnniialion In lliu coiiliary al llial lime, 1 s" slalod... liiil it wiiiild 1)0 (laiifttM'ons In rely ii(ioii llicsc oliscrvalions lliiis casually niadc. ill a liiiio wlirn seal lite was not so widi iiiiderslood as now, lo prove llial coition in llic watci' IS practiced. 1 never had an opportiuuly to assnre myself thai the jiairs of seals scei playinfi were of opposite sexes, or, if they were, that their play was of a sexual nalare, or if it was, that the act was eomplele and ellertive. Thi're does not seem to be any way in wliidi any one of these matters can be delliiilely proved. I'.ven if they wei'e slunvn to he possible and lo occur at times, tlie general belief in it liy casual (diservers al one lime, myself anion;,' the nninbor, was always, as tar as 1 know, coupled with tlie opinion that it was an exceptional and abnormal occur- rence. Ih'yiuil llicreforc, remains, llie only witness cilcd by llie Itrilisli Com- uiissioner.s in snpporl ol'aquiilic coition. On !iie otiier Imnd two }^real (nets dis|irove llic possil)ilily of coition in the ^vatel■ : a) Tiic liarem system, which dominates tlic wliole life and economy of the animal. f)) The time of hirtli of the yonng. Cows give hirtli on arrival dtoport itritisii (lominrs., Sec. 30; Heport American (lonunrs, U. S. Case, p. 32(1). The period of gestation is about twelve months (iJritish Commurs., See. 431; .\mericiin C.ommrs., IJ. S. Case, p. 32()). Cows cannot be iinprognated until after delivery. Arrivals and dolivery occur late in June and early in July with gi'oal regularity. Impregnation must, therefore, lake place within a week or two after delivery of the pup, when the cows are on shore and guarded in the harems. (11 S. Counter Case, pp. 'i^-liij, and espociiUly so if the Hritish Commissioners are right in saying thai the females do not leave the roo- keries lb r several weeks after the birth of tiieir young (Sec. 3fl). That arrivals are not later now Ihaii formerly, see I'. S.Case, p. 38(>, tahle; I'. S. Counter Case. p. 3i)7, evidence of W. II. Williams; U. S. Case, App. Vol. II, p. 13, evidence of J. Stanley-l$rown. If females not pregnant were impregn'iled before arrival, births would be earlier, which is not pretended lo he the case. The following evidence shows that aquatic coiliou is impossible : J. Stanley-Brown ((J. S. Case, App., Vol. II, p. li) says : Pelagic coition 1 believe to be impossible. Thc^ process uiion land by reason ol the formation of the genital organs is that of a mammal, is violent in character, and consumes from live to eight iiiinntes. The relative sizes of the male and female are so disproportionate that coition in the water would inevitably submerge the fe- male and re(iuire that she should remain under the water longer than would be possible to sucii an amphibian. Samuel Kalkener (i/nd., 1(]5) says : i am positive from my observation that copulation in the water cannot be effec- tual, and would be a most unnatural occurence. - ill 7 — H. II. Mr l„lyre [ihul., ,,. 42,, allcr sovcnlecn years on the islands says : • It has ))n,.n said ihat ropulalioii also lakes njacr" in ihn u-.i-.n 1 . young fomalos au.l Iho so call.nl l.rc,Mlin./ri.s I , « ( Th^ ! ''°™ """' J. H. Morton {ihid., p. (i7^, gay^ ; A firm foundation, for (he support of tlx, animals whirl, il„. „,.„,. 1 and th. wato,. ,|oes nol, is indisp 'Lblo ,0 opiIH^ ^^ , i^ T^^'T\ adion of tlu. posterior parts of L n.ale whii! ho ^J^:t;:^;'::^r' "'^^'""' S. |{. Xelllolon [ihid., y,. TiJ), says : ll'-forrinK to tho .,uoslion as to whether pelagic coition is possible, I |,ave (0 siv that I have never seen it attempted, but from niv obsorv.tions I l,..v , . , n ^ eonclusion that pelagic eoition is an in.possihility. " See also aWiele by Dr. Allen, IJ. S. Case, App., Vol. I, p. 407 and deposition of N. A. Grebnit/ki, U. S. Counter Case p! 362. ^^^ The appearence of the act, not the reality, ,nay perhaps have been J. Armstrong (IJ. S. Case, App., Vol. II, p. 2i, says : I have s,.en seals in a position when il seemed to be allemple.l, hul doubl whc- h M,sen,.ctuallyaee,..„phsh,.d. If i- were, Hhink we shouhl seepups J^ . iind out of season, hul such is nol the case. .1. Slanley-Browii iil,id., p. 14i says : I have sal upon tho dills for hours and watched seals beneath me al plav in Ibe clear water. It .s true that n.any of their antics might be n.islaken for pu t ,! by a careless ,d)server, and Ibis n.ay have given rise to Ihe theorv ol pela4 c' i . P '!■!" 'olil^nr' ' '"" "'■ "" """>• ""^'^'•^•^" "1-' -'-" "- f^-ts , '.uld be so pro- Captain Hryanl's views upon this matter iiavc already been cited. Sueh sporl is very nalural, and is lo be seen among many animals. MrMacounin his report .Urilish Counter Case, App., Vol. I, pnge 13;)) ••i!es the same authorities given by Ihe itrislish Commissioners. Mr Ma- coun's views are mere inlerence and hearsay and he was, equally with the Hntish (.ommissiouers, mahh lo wiOms a mujlv inslnncv of nclanir roi- hon cillieriii I8<)1 or 1892. Tho endmre sid)mitle.l by the Dritisi, Covernment (Bril. Counter Case, App., Vol. II, pp. i;j.|2|) consisis of the aflidavils of Ibrtv-six sealers. rhes,> aflidavits appeared for the first time in Ihe liritisii Comiter Case, so that the United States have had no opportunity to reply. The following seventeen of these scalers swear that they have never — 2;tis _ see/i Ihe mi llirouglioiil from (wo In ninclepn years of experience ; Mc (iralli, two years experience ; llyan , ten years ; Funning, four years ; Mc Kean, seven years ; r^iiields, seven years ; Loren/., lliree years ; llaiier, five years ; Chris- tian Iwo years; A. C. Kolger, nineteen years; C. Peters, five years; A. J. Hertrain, six years; A. Mc (larva, live years; (1. K. Miner, six years; II. .1. Lnnil, two years; P. Carlson, fonr years; H. A. Lewis, three years. Sevenly-fivc practical white hunlcrs and sealers examined hy the Bri- tish Govcrnmenl on other points are not asked to give their views as to pelagic coition. The same is true as to thirty-one Indian hunters in Heliring Sea. Of those who swear that they have seen the act performed in the water, the following speak of having only seen it once : A. S. Campbell, three years experience; K. Campbell, five years; (1. Hoberts, four years; W. O'Leury, six years; \V. He Witt, four years; V. W. Strong, four years; G. Mc Donald, six years; K. Cantillion, four years. Three of the afore mentioned witnesses have seen it li/'ire : T. dar- ner, three years experience; W. G. Goudie, \i\e years; A. Uillard, two years. The following swear they have seen it, without saying how often : W. Petilt; G. F. French; C. F. Dillon; C. J. Harris; It. S. Findley; H. n. Jones; \V. Ileay; F. H. Warrington; T. Magneson; A. Hcppen; T. II. Brown; G. Scott; G. Wester. Two of those witnesses, however, swear to a manner of coition which is on its face impossible to the animal : A. S. Campbell (Br. Counter Case, Vol. II, p. 48) and W. Petit {i/ml., p. 43). Two others swear that this occurred in Mai/, which is impossible : G. F. French (ibid., p. 45) and L. Mc Gralh (i/iid., p. 46). The true explanation of what the above-named witnesses saw is given by those witnesses who stale that Ihey have seen movements of the cha- racter here in question in the water, but could not tell and would not swear that they amounted to coition. See 11. E. Folger iBr. Counter Case, Vol. II, p. 91); G. E. Miner (p. 97); E. Bamlosc (p. 72); W. Shields (p. 70); ,1. S. Fanning (p. 95). See also Dr Dall, whose statement is quoted siijiva. Only three witnesses swear to having seen the act performed often or more than twice : A. Douglass (Brit. Counter Case, Vol. II, p. 52); 0. Scarf (p. 67) ; C. Lc Blanc (p. olj. When could these men have seen the act? Not when Bryant saw it, for they were not there. Not before arrival of the cows, or the birth would be early. Not after, or the birth would be late. The suggestion of pelagic coition is completely opposed to all the dominating and well understood habits of the animal, and seems to have been virtually abandoned by the counsel for Great Britain. Very wisely. — 23 111 — Why was it ever l)rouf,'lil forward > Only in the vain hope of im|)in(;ing in some small tiegree upon the itowerfnl arj,'iiment drawn from the allnchmonl of (he seals to the American (errilory, by siif,'f;eslin},' (hat in some casual instances seals may have been at least begotten outside of that territory. Kven if true, il would not alFect the question in the smallest degree. u T.MiM': siionvim; tiiI' i;i'Fi;r/r of tiii; mm,i\(; of itiiFFhiNc FFMAhK SKALS l.\ l>IMIMSIIIN(; IIU: M MltFUnFTIIK llllFFhlN*; FIvMALKS I.N Till; IIKKI). IIAMH.I) IN' UY MH I'llKM'S o\ TIIF G™ Jl LY ISit.l. Tliose liil)li!S lire miidc upon I lo rolidwiiin' (issiim|ili()ns : 1. 'riial till! seals horn in iiny year (leci'easc ann,!ally al the sevci'iil rales indicated in llic diagrams of llie I'. S. (lonnnissioncrs (IJ. S. Case, p. 3'iUi. 2. Thai each hreeding remale lias a hrcodinf; lih; of oi^hloen years. 3. Tlial eaeli hreeihn^ leniah' j;ivos hiilli annuallv from ami inclii- dinj; lier Ihird year to one pup and Ihal half of Ihc jxips are females. 4. For a l)asis npoii which the elfecl of all Ihe pehifiie sealing from IH72 lo I8H',I, inclusive, may he delermined, a calculalion is made in Tahle " A " of Ihe nnniher of female .seals which KtdH female seals, divided inio 2i)0 three years old, 2,oO four year.s old, "i.'iO live vcars old and 2i)0 si\ years old, woidd produce and which would remain in Ihe herd at the end of each year for the period of eighteen years, after alio- TABLE " A ". 1" 2.1 3'' 4„, B.' 6.1. 7>,, 8.'. e.h 10." IJ,., 12... 13' 14"' 15<>' 16' 17'" 18'" V ups. :iuu lii 101 i;iu I."i8 US .'10 I .■i2!) '.\'t"t :i78 .■,91 G02 .'198 ;;rtG :iiG :i:i7 :;:i:. :i:i7 YcarliiiL's. 230 222 201 220 220 2:i!) 2^12 2U,-, 78 289 297 301 299 28:i 27:1 209 2G8 2 Years. Hi'; 118 m llli I'iJ Kill 1G8I .i; 18:; 19:1 198 201 199 189 182 179 ■i u 2:;u ... 12U lol in lOli 110 ii;i 121 127 1:1:1 l:i'.i 112 lii Hi 130 131 I „ 2"j0 208 100 8(1 81 88 92 ..ii; 101 100 111 IIG 118 120 ll!l 113 ;•, u 230 22;; 188 . . . 90 80 r.t :n 82 8i; 91 9:1 100 101 107 108 107 u ., 2r,u 23li 213 m 8:; '.') G!l r.< 78 81 80 90 91 98 10! 102 ^ ,1 220 208 188 I.'IU 7.'i G7 Gl g:; GO 72 70 79 S7 89 8 » 2o:; ini nr, lu; 70 G2 :i7 Gl 111 07 71 71 78 81 9 .1 ... 198 187 Kill HI G8 GO ;i:; 59 62 GO 08 71 7i 10 .. 101 181 l(i:i i:i:; g:; .■18 5:i 57 00 G2 GO 09 11 .. 18i \T, i:ii; l:iii o:t :iG •■11 ;ii .■17 GO G. 12 n 180 no i.-.a 12S 111 :ii 19 ti:i :;o :i8 13 u nc< 107 r.u 12:. Go :i:) 17 :i2 :;3 11 i;; IG n IS " IGll 100 IjI Hi liG i::2 120 1:11 12:1 110 no 112 101 171 91 91 G9 :,8 78 03 SI :i3 :;7 i:i IG 1:1 30 (3 40 38 1 1500 iS8:i lUlU 1008 n:to I80'J mo:; I9!)n 2o.j.| 21.S'.I 22:11 229:1 229:1 2298 2119 2073 2o:io 2117 wing for all dcstruclion proceeding from causes oilier than pelagic sea- ling. This computation for 10(I(| is ap|died in Tahle " 15" lo Ihc total — IM2I — |..>laKi.- ...1,1, a(, (h. ..,,.1 of m-l M„.| i„ Tal.l. '• (1 " |„ H.o whole pclnRic riilcliiil llii'iMid ol'lHH'.t. Tl... |HTcontnf!o of hrcodiriK lernalo seals roinaiim,;; in ..ach scar nller sulh.rniK'all losses rro.n natural ransos. as lakon Innn Iho Inilcd Slates (.oninnssioners lahies, is as follows. l.,-innin^' will, IIKl seals • - Isl year, KMI; 2n.l year. ;i(l; ;ir.l year, :{:{ I ;{; ill, vear, :2« • :i||, year 20; Oil. year, |H; 7lli year, 17; Hth year, l.'i; <)|l. year it; year' .3 I 2; nil, year, l.'l; I2ll, year, 12 1/2; 1311, year, 12 I 1; i;ill, year,' M 1/2; IMl.year, III 12; ITU. year.!); IH||, year, 7 1/2; l<)ll, year 5- and 2tl(li year, 0. J ' . Nole. The diaf^rams of the United States Commissioners nro ncecssa- niy framed uponeonjeelnral assumptions, whieh it is impossihlelo verify It IS Ijeheved, hovyever, that no ehan^e in Ihese assumptions, which the (ruth in rospeet lo the loss of seals l,y their natural enemies other than pt'laK.e sealers, yyere itknosvn, yvould rcq.,ire, would eall for any material modiheation of Iheeoiielusions to whieh these tahles lead. ti:i nn iiij si| 74 (ill «;; .'iS ■i;i 41) .■IS TABLE " B " Showing the number of females, which would have been aH-. in 188i .xceDt or pelagic sealing, and which would have appeared un th. .reedingsrou.l In 1884 (caloulating from Table A). t b «u .ua YK.VUS, IN72. Int:i. IHTi-. I ST.;. 1X70. IH77. IH7S. IS7U. IXHO. IH8I. 1882. iNL.MIIKU ('(■■ VKAHS 11 Id (I H 1 CATCIli I II21I i ',1 *!l I Oil) 2(112 ;i7oo 9!i9:) 1 2 .MH) 1 ;) (ioo i;t;iii 17 701) >. CitHi i,ik,.,i r,„„i Aiiioiica,. Coinirii^siuiieiV l(,.,,„|.i n: . s. Ua.sh, p. s |i. .ion;. ,.o,ss 2 319 lOIISS :i 2H9 389U ic;)ii 16. ■196 208110 21896 21 :i:iy 2(i n.'io 137 624 I ho American Commissioners give a hypolhetieal herd in yvhich there are supposed to be 1.^300000 females, of yvl„n 800000 are capable of breeding, it ,s seen, therefore, assuming the Pribilof he. d lo correspond HI numbers lo the Commissioners' hypothesis, that in ten years, of pela- \Mi — pif sealiii);, wlucli Iho broodinj; fomaU^s would bo roduood, by 220S"J(^ or 27 l\ .'i por ooni of llio SOlMKlH broodiiifi cows ussu- inod by tlio r.omniissioMors. TABLE "C" Showinft th<< number or frmalps, whirh would havp bcpn nitvo In 1889 cxrppt for prlAKic spiiUng, and which would have appoarod on the breeding grounds in 1881 (calculated from Table A>. M MIIKK l.llSS YK.MiS. or M-VIV.t I- A Tell '. or IV I.VS'.t KI-MAt KS is:i 18 i: 1 Oi!) i 1 :8 i8:;i ISTI IC i:i ir.u'. io-j:.'.) ;i ISS is::; ISTfi i:i :< :(m '.1 yx\ \ (>!l.l i.io:o '.'JOIS is:: I8:s is:i> H IJMIO ■js 1 ::. ISSO ... to '.1 s 1 ;i (•.Oil l.l.'iU i: :oi) '.ii',>:. •:•.' : :o es ie.i ;i:..isj i::.it'. ISSI ISS'J. iss;i ISSl. , . , ('i 1 i Ol>(l j:. ;ijf. iss:. ii IIIIHVI .!■.' I '.Ml ISSt'i .tS'.io: ,i;i son (•iS'.ir :.l us iss: ISSS o ,i: :s\t ;i!is-.>i) ISS'.I 1 10 '.I'.IS f.i m; 48;uio 1 C.tlrll taken rrinii .Vmi'nrAil 1 iMiiiiii^^ioitiM^ K'>|>>s (".niiiiiiissi.iM.-rs iiro. of ooiirso. Iiypolliolioal: biil (in- lt\(iolliosi> is ooiisisloiil \mIIi lln< oNidcnco. Any oliiiiifio in llio livpollu'sis wliioli llio (>\idoiioo iiia\ bo siip- [losod lo aduiil of would iiol lualorially oliaiiKO llio rosull. TABLE '• O " ShowlitK lo«» in th.. numbor of frmalo ho«1», which w.uHd bo om-olod by ton yowrs of pplngio hoa1Ii,«;. bftw.l on tho nupposltion thnt aO.OOO brooding romnloi woro killod «„„„„„y dnrlng thnt period: allowance IVom natnral laiidos belnK made on (ho bntils ofTablo A NrMIUCK LOSS or liHKKIMNi) LOSS or vt'i'Nit rKkKih!t 1 IHTAI. l.dSS Kll.l wv • 1 Oli> .'ll.! .'f III,. |.,.|(„.l. itt iho itut) of 111,. |„.ri,,,l. al 111,. cii,l of 111,, pitrn.il, 1 Isl yi-,11' il> lUH) 2(« (il'lO 1 : 1 ill ■t;i :so '.M - •.'() 000 -j:i ;iso III too H '.'SO Mi .^. '.'0 000 •J I .lilO l.'if.JO to 'ISO nil ■M (HIO -j:i-:to 1 i .^.o .IS 100 .'illi •JO 0(H) •-"JOiO lUlO :iii ISO fill. W 000 :i oto 1 .1 :>iio :uissO|- KKXIAl.KS. iO (HIO 'JO IHH) •JiOS'O 10 000 :io 0(H) ioooito HI l^2[\ ;ir.| sio in Ill OBSERVATIONS OF THE lUlITISIl COUNSEL I 1»0N THE TABLES HANDED IN BY MR. PHELPS ON JULY 6"' 189;» NoTK. In Jio following olisorvalions only llioso facts or figuros assci'tod orgivcii by tlio United Stales have been doall witb. No new contiovei's^ial nialtor lias been introduced. Tlie Urillsh ftovernincnt does nol of course ailniil the trutli of these (Ijrures or as^umplloiis, but si'cks only to shew that if lliey are admitted and {jnmled, Ihcy estahlisli (•(iiichisions the very opposite of those sought to be deduced from lliem bv United Stales. (:.„„| .'If >Hi-i \M C.iii- mis si« iiers 1 I'piU't. Vm .IS a: I -;)■ (!. I. Tlic ol»jecl. willi wliicli .Mr Phelps' Tahles uro put forward is to shew tliut liie unmial killiiif; of a miinber of female hrceding seals will liavc u large ellect in perinaiicnily rcduciii}; the "herd. " It is not of course deiiiod that the killing of breeding females or males to a very largo extent might in time produce adiminulion in (he "herds", but it is contended that the ell'ects sought lo he established by Mr Phelps' Tables are incorrect and exaggerated. Tlie rsliniate arrived at on page ,"1 of Mr Phelps' Tables, is that the annual killing by man of 20,00ft breeding females for 10 years, would reduce a " herd" of 1,300,000 female seals (of which 800 J)00 are breeding females' by litU.SIO or 2'i per ccnl isee Table" 1) "). I!id those who prepared liiis estimate, while they have taken into ac- count the loss due to killing by man, have failed to give credit for the nat- ural increase, which according to table " A " would be going ou during the same period among I hose breeding females nol so destroyed. II would involve a tedious calculation lo (ix exactly what Ibis increase would be, but even supposing that the whole number ^200, 000) killed during the 10 years, were killed in the lirst year, yet still Ihiswoidd leave over 000,000 breeding females lo produce Ihe increase; and assuming that Ibis 000, 000 increased during IIk! 10 years in liie same ratio as that shown on Mr Phelps' Table " \ " (\\/. from 1,000 lo2,18'.»j the 000,000 would become I, U 1 2, 200. That is lo say, the female " herd" would by nat- ural increase have been augmented by 712,200 females, an increase wiiich might fairly have been sol oil' against the 301, HiO killed, but of which the compilers of the table have taken no notice, and for which they have given no credit. In fact, the natural increase of Ihe " herd " would more than lill the void created by the killing of the females by man, provided such killing was not pushed loo far. Thus Mr Phelps' Table " A " shews Ihal the seal (htes not dill'er from other polygamous animals, .such as deer, of which a reasonable — o;t2;; — proportion of females are annually killed in all carefully managed herds witlioul injury. The above nalural increase has been taken at Mr Phelps, valuation. Without endorsing the exact accuracy of (1ml valuation, it is clear IJiat a large natural increase must exist which needs to ho credited in anycorrect compulation. The argument that (he killing of every breeding female decreases the herd pro lanlo, in a geometrical -ralio, is obviousiv untenable, otherwise lliose " indiscriminate" pelagic sealers the killer-whales and the native Induins would have long since destroyed Ihc whole number of seals. Inasmuch as the tables of Mr Phelps are based on the Diagrams of the United States, Commissioners, it becomes desirable to examine these Diagrams somewhat more closely. II. Thetwoniagrams(A)and (C) are given by the United Slates' Com- u,,,,..,: s,a,cv cw miss.oners (o show the elferts of "properly regulated" killing upon land. '' ''-• 'I hey relate (o the male portion of a liypolbctical "herd," which in its natural con.lilion would amount to 10,000 males and 40,000 females, but ini.0,1 .suu,.' ca.., which il laud killing look place would, according to the United States' ''• ='"•"'''« i^- Commissioners, be reduced U, l^^m males and 40,000 females. hia,,.,,. (c. p. 3:a, The same conclusions would hold (rue whatever the whole number of "'"',""'!''-' ''^'""''' seals was, it being only necessary to increase the figures in due pro- '"''''■'"■'"""■ portion. These two Diagrams relate (0 male seals. li.Xl'LA.NATIO.N 01' TflK DIAGRAMS. 1. Along the lowest horizontal lines are arranged a number of figures representing successively the ages of the male seals. Opposite each of these nguivs is a vertical line represenling by ils leni;lh llie number of male seals which there are in the "heni," of (he age represented by the figure. Diagram (A) represents (he mule "herd" of 10,000 seals in its u,m...i s..,e,' ca^o natural state, according to (he opinion of the United Stales' Commis- i'- ■''-• sioners, and before any killing by man has taken place. iM-om the Diagram it is apparent that in this " herd " there would at any given lime be 10,000 male pups under t year old; there wouid be f),000 yearlings or males under 2 years, but over I year old ; 3,:20O 2-year- olds, or males over 2 years of age but under 3 years old; 2,100 ;i-year- olds; and so on. .Vud il is quile evid.'iil that tiie lolal number of male seals in the "her.l" may be obtained by adding logelher all Ihecolumns. In Table [„) annexed, the figures have been extracted from IheUniled Slates' Commissioner's Diagram (A), and adde.l up. Th. lole.! comes to 40,025 and agrees with the total marked on the United States' Diagi-am (.V).' — 232fi — Coiiip.u'L'IiiitisliCoim- ti'rC;isi\iip.37I-37ti. ITnitcil SlalHs' Case, |>. 3.'i.'(, :ii'(l liiu' I'rom ))oU()in of llu' iMjie. I'llitt'il Slates' Cftse, p. j:;;), line lu. Uniled Slates' Case, p. :io2, 3n\ line from boltoiii. riiiied Sl.iles'. l)ia}.'rani ()>, I'niteil Suites' Case, p. u'i.i. I'lliteil Stales' Case, ji. 'i">"i, line li. I'niteil Slates' Case, p. il.'iO, line 211. I'niteil Siales' Case, p. ;i.'.7,Hne I, If this " herd " in its natural condition be in a state of " practical stability ", as the Uniled States' Commissioners for tiieir purpose assume I that is ) say, if the " herd " as a wiiole be neither decreasing nor increa- sing), then, on the average, the yearly number of births will be equal to the yearly number of deaths. The " herd " will be increased each year by the birth of 10,000 pups, and decreased each year by 10,000 deaths from-killer wliales and other natural causes, and thus the balance will be maintained. I5y comparing the various ligures with one another, the yearly mortal- ity from natural causes of the seals of any particular age can also be seen. Thus, for instance, when the " herd " leaves the Pribilof Islands, it con- sits of 10,000 male pups, 5,000 male yearlings, 3,200 male 2-year-olds, and so on. Hut owing to natural deaths in the ocean, when it comes back, the 10,000 male pups, wiiich will now be entering on their second year of life, that is, becoming 1-year-olds, will have been reduced to a, 000. The 5,000 male yearlings which left the island in the previous season will now have been reduced to 3,200; and so, in like manner, every class of seal will come back older in age by a year, but reduced in numbers, and on the whole, as has been said, the male " herd " will be reduced by 10,000. Hut as so on as the " herd " thus reduced arrives at Ihe islands, it is again increased by the birlh of 10,000 male pups, and so the equilibrium is maintained. (All this can be seen from an inspection of Table («.). Diagram (('.) in the Uniled States Case sliows the stale of things pro- duceil by what tiie Uniled Stales' Commissioners designate as " propeiiy regulated lalUmi " of males, or as they also express it " the male jior/ion of the i ne herd, irhen jiidirioitsli/ irorl;ed bij man ". This " herd " would, as the I'nilcd Slates' Commissioners explain, " be greatly diminished, and the census nf the ivhole herd -'orrespondinglg lessened, hut when once reached the new randition u-nuld be constant and self-sustaining ; " and they estimate this reduction as being " to nearly one-iialf of what it would be in the undisturbed condition ". On their Diagram (C) they mark the new si/e of Ihe " herd " as 23,,")()8 male seals. A Tai)le (r) has been prepared from the United States' Diagram (C) showing the various numbers of seals in the reduced " herd " of various ages. When added up, the total comes to 23,080 (a ligurc not very dill'erent from that given by the Uniled Slates' Commissioners. For all practical purposes the dilfcrence in quite immaterial). The yearlykillingof males between 2 and 5 years on the islands, which has caused this reduction, is estimated by the United States' Commission- ers at 2,100,* and has been marked by them on Diagram (C). At a (irst glance, il may appear surprising that so small a killing as 2,100 males /w annum can reduce the " herd " so largely as is shown on Diagram (C). Hut it must be remembered that the killing all lakes place among male seals from 2 to 5 years of age. Thus, for instance, the male * See Nolo at end. — 9327 — 3-year-olds, wliicli under natural conditions would be 2,i00 in number, are by land killing reduced to 1,000. That number 1,900 is next year by natural deaths reduced to about 1,387, and then by killing on land is further reduced to 1,000, and next year the 1,000 by deat!. from natural causes and land killing is reduced to 300 male seals. Hence, while in live years natural deaths woidd reduce 10,000 male pups to 1,840, natural causes and land killing together would, in the same period, reduce 10,000 male pups to 300. If thekilling of male seals took place i>,-o rata ani'ong seals of all ages, it would reduce the " herd" to a very much less extent, for it is obvious (without entering upon abstruse calculations of the value of male life at various ages to the breeding power of the herd) that the seals which will be most valuable for breeding purposes are those which arc just entering on adult life, having escaped the heavy mortality atten- dant upon extreme youth, an• and may thus be seen from Table («). On adding them up. we find that the following are the assumed numbers of female seals out of a " herd " ol 40,023, shown by Diagram (15) : — Young females, under ,'1 years Breeding females Decrepit Total . . 18, "300 i!0,H()0 sr.;; 4o,oi;i If the figures in the various Tables he raised proportionately from a natural " herd " of 80,030, which by Ihe killing of 2,100 annuallv is per- manently reduced lo<53,f)80, to a natural " herd " of 3,001,873, which by the kdling of 78,730 per annum is permanently reduced to 2,388,937, we shall have in the " herd " : — — 23-!8 — NArriiAL coNiirrioN. HBDL'CKIl r.ONDITlO.N. Mulo pups :i7:i,(Hi() :t7:i,(i(i(» Male yciiiliiiHS tS7,:ioii IH7,:i()U Mali's, I'liini 2 Id ;i years 2x:i,()iH) ■i-JS,7I>0 Yimii^' luills, I'l om "> io " years l.'ll.ilO 21,000 Itreediny bulls :ii(i,7:io 7i,2:;o Dei'ri'pil II, 1:17 1 ,;ioo Total males 1,;iO(),9:i7 H88,()0I) Female pnps :i7;;,ii(iii :n;;,ooo Kermiles, finm 1 to It years.. ;io7,;i(i(» ;i()7,;i()ij I!ieeiliii(( females 7X11,(1(111 7H(),00U Decrepit " :i2,'t:i7 1 ,.'i(»(i,v:)7 :i2,v:i7 Total females 1 ,:ioo,9:i7 The aliove lif^ufcs aj;i'co lumrly with those };iveii 011 pp. U.'IT-.'^'IS of the L'liilcd Stiites' Case, \lw hitter ol' which ui'e obviously roiiiul miinhci's. OllSRnVATIONS. On looking at Tahh^ ia) wo find (hat according (0 the oslimato of i\w lliiiled Slates" C.oiiimissioMers the " hei'd " in its natural rondition oiij;hl to contain 3,i)()(t young males or young bulls over 5 years of age and under 7 years of age (shown on the liiiiled States' Diagram (A) by the smaller green area). And we also see that in the natural rondition the number of adult males or bulls over 7 years of age, called by the Com- missioners " breeding l)ulls, " ought to be 13,()2n (shown in the same Diagram by the yeUow areaU In order to compare this stale of things in the normal bcalthy condi- tion with the condilion of lliinns after regulated killing IS in con- tinuous operation, we turn In Diagram (C) and Table (/'],whon we find that the young bulls are nosv reduced from ;$,.")00 to ."JfiO, and th;\t the breed- ing bidls are reduced from I3,<)20 lo I ,'.)8(). In other words, the number of \irile males available for Ihe rookeries is less than one-sixth of what it was before, (This is irrespective of Ihe question whether some even of those which remain have been injured by driving, or are for any other reason unfit for service.) On looking at Ihe Diagrams and comparing them, it is clear that this enormous diminulion of the bn^ediiig bulls so out of proportion to the yearly number of males killed, vi/., "J,!!)!)) is really due lo Ihe excessive killing of young male life. This is especially showit by the rapid drop of the curve on Diagram (C). It is asserted by Ihe United States' Commissioners that the l,'.)80 bulls Icfl, can fertilize the female cows as ell'ectively as I3,()20. It seems hard lo believe that, if this be so, Nature should have created so many bulls 23i0 lo serve no purpose, or tlinl nal„ral male life can he inferlbred will, lo so larpe an cxlcnl vvithoul injuring the rcproducliv.' powers of the " herd - 2. It IS also see., li.at if, out of a nal...-al ' ' l,c..l " of iO.nOO males man lulls on land earl, yea,- 2, 1 00 ( ll.al is, abonl one-lwenliell, of thoir ..nml.er) ' ll.e.nale " l.er.l " gra.h.aily declines, until, uhcn e,p,ilil,riu,„ l.as again' been reached, the male •' l,e,d " is only about oue-half its original si/e ri,e laud killing of a ce>-tain number of seals every year p,-oduces, ll.e,-e- lore, li.r more than aywv/ hnito .'eductiou in the size of I ho " herd " ;5. It is s(ale.l on the part of the United States that every death of a ,;„iu.d s...- loinulo encroaches pro tantn upon the normal numbers of the " hei-d " . a".l if prosecuted lo any conside.-able extent will lead to extermination " ""• '"• I his IS not co.-.-ecl. Ity i\w pn, tanto dimi„„tiou of the " he.-d " is meant lis reduction ... a geometrical p.oporlion, thus leading lo extinction. Ihe e.Tor of th.s theory may be seen as already stated, by noting that if it were t.-ue, the killing of even o.ie fe.nale a year above the „atu,-al propo.- lion (as by the por.na.ienl iuccaseof the killer-whales hvone ext.-a whale) would thus load lo exth.ctio... iJut such a result is .nauifestlv absu,-d' II lu a nalu.-al co.idilion each female bore on an avcage onlv one female pup, the death of such a pup bofo.'e it had i„ its lur., bo.-ne a Ibmale pup lo .•epiace .1, would of course p.-oduce such an ellect. Itut each cow, acco.-- ( ing to the (Jn,lcd Stales' Commissioners, produces lifteen pups so thai (hc.-e .s a la.'ge rese.-ve to meet possible causes of death without .lin.iuis- liing the <■ he.-d, - eveu if some a.-e killed before they .-each the h,-eediug s,. nia..,,. a. ^ Uniled Stall's Case, 4. The Diagrams also show that when Ihe seals are in a natural condi- ''" '''" tion, there is a yearly death f.'om natural causes of 20,000 seals (10 000 male and 10,000 female). This dcstructiou arises IVou, disease and kill- ing by k.lle,--whah;s aud other uatu.'al enemies. It is mostlv effected '.t sca,andisenli.-ely iudisc-iminate as losex. If, then, pelagic killing with- out d.st.ncl.on ..f sex, be so .leslruclive as is a.-gucd bv Ihe United Stales It IS dill.cull to see how, on Wx^pvo tanin theory, (he natural pcla-ic kill- .ugal sea, w.lhout disfin.'tion of sex, of 20,000 seals anuuallv out of a " l.c-d '• of 80,000 of both sexes, should not long ago have ext.Vpated the " iie,-d: • or, o,. Ihe other hand, why. if so la.-ge a dcstn.dio., has not exiinguished Ihe "he.-d, " a compa.-ativcly small addition to that killi.,.- should be alleged lo have suddculy pi-oduced so deslructive iu, ellecl. " ;i. In the abrve Tables and the .\.-gument of the United States' Uo.ii- missioners it is assumed that every breeding seal, male or female, lands at the islands every year. (5. The above-.nentioncd lai-ge ,-ediiction in the numbe.-s of b.-eedin- bulls, which is, accoi-ding lo Ihe Uniled Slates' Commissionc-s, p.-oduced by .-egulaled k.lhng. would lead fo an expeclatio.i that when land killi.." had been pi-aclised for some lime the si/.e of the ha.-ems would be inc. -er- ased, au.l the competition of Ihe bulls for females diminished. Of co„,-sc the killing of females al sea would lend lo p.-oduce a coi.li'ary ellect 7. If the killh.g of 2,100 males out of a " he.-d" of 80,000 seals, or, 'X'"'"' ''"''• — 2330 p. 3:i;i, line 9. r.igc ;i;n, lino is. what is the same Ihinf;, the killing of 78,750 males, or in round numbers 80,000 males, out ola'-herd" of "2,380,000 seals of both sexes, is Iho most llial can be effected without depleting the " herd, " it is evident, on the United States' dommissioners' showing, that the 100,000 males yearly killed on the islands has been loo large a number, unless the " herd" has, Dniini sinios' Cnav, during tlic period in wliich it was douc, cxccedcd 3,000,000. The United Stales' Commissioners assert that this has not been the case. On the contrary, they say that the " herd" has largely decreased within six or seven years before I8'.>l, They seem to estimate this decreaseas having reduced the " herd " to one-half its former quantity, but the estimates are conllicting. The natives and Daniel Webster consider that the decline began in 1877-78. In any case, it is quite clear that the killing of 100,000 seals has been far to large according loo the estimates shown by the United Slates' (iOmmissioners' Diagrams, and would fully account for the diminution of the " herd " without reckoning the pelagic sealing. It is diflicult to discover how the United States' Commissioners arrived at this ligure, "2,100. It seems more correct to place it at 1,707*. In which case the yearly killing of males out of a " herd" of 2,380,000 ought not to exceed 04,012 according to their Diagrams. •Note. — This ligure (1,707) is arrived at liy examining the successivo diinlnulions ol pailicular classes ut' s«alH duo lo natural causes and tu land killiuj^. Ati exaniinalioii uf Tables («) and (<•), sIidws that nalur.U causes reduce the ;t-ye,ir-olds froui 2,40(1 to 2,000 in ayoar, or lfll/2 per cent., and lliat llie similar decrease ofllie l-year-olds is i.OdO to 1,810, or 8 per cent. .New, from tlieTaldes it is seen that irione year .'tjiOO male 2-year-olds are reduced by natural causes to 2,R>0, and Ihese'J, 100 males are again reduced by land killinf; to 1,1100, that is to say, iiOO are land-killed. These l.tlOO an; next year reduced from natu- ral causes i'V 10 1/2 per cent., that is, to I,:i87, and thus, in order to \tnuy, Ihcin down to the 1,000 shown in the Table, .■i87 must be killeil on land. The 1,000 aie aj^aiu reduced by natural causes by 8 per cent., viz., to !)20, of which if Oil) are killed on lanil, we get the 300 S-year-olds shown in the Table. Tln^ total annual killing on laud would thus be — riOO ... ... Il-year-olds. !)87 4 H20 S Total 1,707 2831 — Taiiuc ifi] showing llicnniiihdis of iimlo scnis of various agosniprcseii led in l»ia{,Tani (A), of Iho IJ. S. Conimissionors as making up lliu " liurd " of id, 0:2,") male seals. Pups. . . l-yt;ar-uldc •A — i — ,') — (i — 7 — ,s — !l — Id — II — !'.> — lit — Hi 17 IS III at) TuT.W,. 10,000 ;>,(ioo ;i,ioo :i,i00 ti.OOO 7,(!00 l,S',0 l.lillO i,!;oo ;i,;iOO youiiy bulls (gl'I^UIl). 1,410 i,;t(io i,;i.'io l,'.>(10 1,'JiO 1,1 ;)0 1,1 iO I;i,(i20 brcL'tliiiff bull.i (yollow). I,0!i0 !i;t(» 740 .'i(iO ;!(i;i (1 4o,0'2;i Taih.k {<■), sliowing llio iiunihcrs of male seals of various ages repre- sented in Diagram (C) as making up llie herd of 23,08(1 male seals. I'U[)S. . . . 1-yoiu-ii|(!s. o ■i 5 7 !» 10 II \-> \ii 14 \:; Ki 17 18 19 i!0 10,(1011 5,01)0 3,200 1,!I00 6,100 1 ,000 aoo 2«0 205 ) 5(iO youiiff bulls J fei'ocn). 1 202 201 19!' 198 Mlii 180 IflO l,nMO bruc'diiiK bulls (yellow). 150 120 100 70 40 Total 23,080 294 IV OUSKIIVATIONS OF TIIK rNITKD STATKS ('.((['NSKL IPO.N Till': I'AI'KIl Si:H.MHTi:i» HY TIIH COINSKL FOH (IHKAT milTAliN l(> IlIK AnitmiATOU SINCK TIIK CLOSK W TIIK IIKAUINC.. The Agenlof llie I'niled Stales lias received uolice I'rom the Agent of (Ircal IJritain of tlie submission of a new paper to the Arbitration. The pa|)t'r is enlillcd " Observations upon tlie Tables put in by Mr IMielps on .lidj (». 180!$ '". Tiie paper therefore /;///yw/7« to be con- lined to observations upon certain tables which the counsel for tJreat ilri- taiu had not had previous opporlunilv of examining. This is apparently (icsijincd as a defence, or apolo-iy, for llie action, certainly irregular, of subuiillinj; an argumenlalive paper v" ^v Ihc hearing, and wilhoul leave. If the paper were confined to what purports lo be the contents of it, na- mely, observations upiui the tables referred to, there might be some excuse lor i( ; but these observations occupy less than a page and a half of the document. The remaining six pages consist of a wholly new argu- ment, designed to show thai tlie annual taking of IOO,(lfl(( males when the herd is a normal condition lends lo destroy Iho virile life of the herd. Tiic Counsel for llie I'niled Slates cannot help observing that the submission of such a document is wholly irregular : bul a failure lo take notice of it although quite justifiable, might be misinterpreted. .V careful examination i)y llie Arbitrators of the contents of this pa- per, siiould they choose to give it any examination, would suggest the answer to it; bul a few observations upon it, necessarily hasty, may be of service. I. II is said on page 1 of these observations : " It is not of course denied that the killing of breeding females or males lo a very large extent niigiit in time produce a dimiiiulion in the herds, bul it is contended that the elFecl sought lo be established by Mr IMielps' tables arc incorrect and exaggerated." Hut if the killing of females " to a very large extent " tends to |)ro- duce a diminution in the herds, as every one can see that it must, and if, indeed, as every one can see, the killing of females to a small extent even must have such tendency, the material point is to ascertain lo what an extent such killing of females can be carried without causing substantial diminulion in the numbers; but this problem, the only material one, tlio counsel for Great IJritain neither in this paper nor in the course of their argumenl make any etlort to solve, unless by the suggestion in these ob- servations, lliat it appears from the tables that the annual killing of 20,U<11) females would create no loss which would not be counter-acted and supplied by the increase of the surviving females. — axrA — Tlu! siiKSfislion is llial accordiiiK lo llin rale of iiid'caso of each fe- malo upon wliirli lliu (ahles siil.iniU('(l l)y Mr i'holps is Imscd . if 2()ll,(l((0 r.iiiialus out of a lieni ol'H(M»,()0(» brocdiuf,' IViualos nnoit killcl la one yiMir, llio loss would he iiioio llian i;:adi' uj. In llic pidjicny t,( llie n'inaininKdOd, ()()(» alllic crA of ton years. The error of lliis si-^^fjcslioii consisis in lliis, lha( llie dia-rams ol' the United Slates Coii.missioners upon which Ihe lahle suhniilled l.y Mr Phelps was prepared assume the herd to he in ils nnnnal cnnililhm uf slnlnlilji, where the deaths are equal to the births; thai is lo say. a rnn- dition in which Ihe herd will not increa.se in nunihers; whereas Ihe cal- culation in the paper referred lo of the Hritish counsel iiuikes the herd in- crease, thus cdiilradictin^' the assumption. It may, indeed, he true that a hypothetical henl of females assumed by the .American Ci.mmissioners, and the ratio of diminution assumed by their tables, may be too small or too large, one or bolh, for there is no evidence upon which the corrcclncss of such a.ssumptions can be determi- ned. This is expres.sly slated hy the Commissioners, and their diagrams ore IVamed only for the purpose of illustrating, on the one hand, the clfecl upon the numbers of ihe herd produced by nnlural causes which arc nol under the control of man, and, on the other hand, the ellect pro- duced by those same causes in conjunction with another cause, which is under the control of man, namely, the killing by (he hand of man. It is slated in this paper that Ihe ()00,000 breeding females left in the herdafler the killing of 2(10,000 would become in llio course of len years 1,312,200. This may ".c true, but, at the .same time, the 200,00(1 kil- led wouhl,on the same hypothesis, become at the i of ten years 'i-37,800, that is to say, would augment the herd by 23/ .800. Thus it is seen that this killing of females would vastly diminish the ///r/mv^ of the herd. Ff we assume, as the IJnilcd Slates Commissioners assumed in fra- ming their diagrams, and as we have every reason to believe the fact was when the hand of man was first interposed, that the herd had reached its normal slalionury condition, this diminulion in the increase occasioned by the killing of lemales immediately becomes a diminution below the normal numbers of the herd. If it were possible lo ascertain what the exact numbers of the herd were in its normal condition , and also what the ratio of .Iccrease from natural causes was, the diminulion created hy the slaughter of females might be accurately represented in numbers; but, in the absence of know- lodge upon this point, we are compelled to resort to conjei'tural assum- ptions, which, while they fail to afford us Ihe means of staling Ihe dimi- nulion in accordance with the fact, nevertheless enable us lo illustrate such diminulion. 2. It is further said, on page I of this paper : " Thus .Mr Phelps' Table A shows that the seal does not differ from other polygamous animals, such as deer, of which a reasonable proportion of females are — iM.U — iiiiiiiiallv Killi'il, ill riircriilly iiianii^rd |iri'si'i'M>s, willioiil injur) ". This mil) l)i< li'iir ill i'cs|i('il Ion " ciirtiriilly iiiiiiia^i'd |ii'i'si>i'vc ", l)iil llir iiii|ilirali(iii is, anil siirdv IIh> lacl iiiiisl l)i<, llial sinli a roiirsi' (-aiiiii)l lio (akcii aii\s\liiM(' ('l>c <'\c(,'|il ill a " carcruIlN inaiia^oil |ircsiM'vr ". A /irrsniw cnu nnly sii|i|i(ii'l and ai'coniiiioilali' a ciTlaiii niimliiT, and irilic naliiral iiicroas«> lends lo oxcncd llial niiinlicr, il is |)ri»|ior, and may indci'd l)(' necessary, to rediiee Hie iiei'd lt\ Hie killinj; of reinaies. H' Hie leai- ned eitiinsel Tor liriNil lliilain had iiidiealed li\ Nshai rules, re^iilalions, limilalioiis and reslrielions this herd ol' seals, when on lin' seas, eoiild he. treated as a'' carel'iilh managed |ireserve ", liieir (diservulions mi^iil be more inslrnriive. •i. II is riirliier (d)S('rveil, on paj^e - ni' llio paper : " The ar^iiinenl Hial Hie Niiiin^ ()i'e\ery Itreediiif; I'emale deereases Hie \\i'Vi\ /no /iiii/a in a j;('oiii(!lrical raMn, is (ili\i()iisl\ iiiilenahle, olherwise Hiosi; " iiidiscrimi- nale pelaijie sealers " Hie killer whales and Ihe iialive Indians, wonlil have loiif; since destroyed Hk^ herd. These oltserxalions indieali' ;;reat iiiisappreheiision. There is an enor- mous lendene\ lo increasi; in all animal lil'i'; (his lendeiii'v is iiioderaled and diminished h\ the various enemies lo which such liti' is siihjei led.and, in Hie case ol'seals, li\ such onemies as killer whales, delicieiiey of I'ood nnd the killing hv nalive liidians pursued lon^ anierior to Ihe discovery ol the islands, and Nvliich is h'ealed l)\ Hie I niled Stales C.ommissioiiers, as it properlv should have heen, as one anions Hie iKilnrnl I'tiimrs of dimi- nution. Killing li\ the hand of man in the sea and upon the land \\\{\ tid- iUriiiiml tiKisrs bronnlil lo nperale u|ion Hie herd n/hr il hnil rcdi lied its nnriind roiulilinii nf xtuhililij under Ihe operalion of all other causes ol diminnlion. i. Till! residue of Ihe paper seems desij;ned lo show thai Ihe annual lakiii}; III' jllll.lllll) youiij; males in Ihe manner praelieed liy the I'niled Stales was loo ^real a drai'l upon Ihe IumhI, even in its condilion hel'ore pelaj;ic sealing; was prailicod. If there is any force in this view, it musi be ill Ihe asserlion. or snj;|;eslioii, that llic reduclion in a liypolhelical herd luumberin;; of ill sexes and af;es, SO, 0(1(1 , Irom Kld^O breediuii; bulls III I'.KSO, broiii it about by ii killiiif; of yuniin males in Ihe manner and III Ihe extent | , 'Heed on Ihe islands, is falally excessive, as impai- ring (he virile [luwei the herd. It is enough lo say. in answer lo this, llial Ihe reduced mill er of MWO gives one breeding bull lo leii females, there being in (his h; )lbelical herd 20,'.M)0 females. The known capa- city of each breeding all ranges, as the evidence shows, from 20 |i> ."id fe- males. i). It is observed in this pajierfp. .'>! : " II is asserted by Hie I'niled Slates (lominissioners that (he I '.180 bulls left can ferlili/.e the cows as elFectively as 13,(i2(). It seems bard to believe that, if this be so, Nature — iii.i;) — should have ireati'tl so iimiis bulls Id sitvi; ihi luirposi', or lliiil riiiliiral lifociin III! iiiliTlnrcil willi lo mi jiuni! an i-xlfiii williDul iiijiiiiii^ llu; ni- liruduclivc powers dI'IIic hci'd. " .Naiuri' uiiddiililiMlJN hiis inaiiy insiriilalili' iiivHlciii's, Iml lliis docs nol s(!um to ho anion;; Ihc niniihcf oj' lln'in. jlocs md nalun> do IIm! same lhinf{ in llii- case of horsfs and cowsand hovirw rallli', and ntan\ olhi'i's animals .' In all Ihosc inslani-i>s Ihu saiiio nnndtiT of males ami females are horn, and \el one male snlliees I'or a mndi larger nnmher ol" females llian (^ven in llieraseof llie seals. The |inr|iose seems lo he plain enough. Al all e\enls, we know whal Hie eonseipn-nee is, and it is fair lo presmiii! thai such was llie inlended purpose of iialiire. II ea-iU enahles a hnshandry lo he euriied on h\ hiking Ihe Mipeilliioiis male life which would otherwise he expended in inlcinecine eoiillicU, jind devolin^ il lo Mil! pui'|»ose of man. \Vhcnc\er in Ihe e.isc of lliese donieslie animals llic nunihcrs arc increased, as Ihey easily may he, lo such an r-vlenl as lo hoconu! unprolilahle, economic laws furnish a remedy, atid the owners proiMJod hy Ihe killing' of females ht diminish Ihe herds which have heconic loo ahundani for prolil. These are llie condil ions and II iily condilion.s under which il is cmw permissihle lo slan^hler Ihe females of useful animals. Smdi coiidilioiis can never arise in Ihe case of Ihe seals. The annual dennind foi' ,,iem far exceeds Ihe supply, and even if Ihis diMuaml should cease, Ihe feeding of Ihe herd is no hnrden upon Ihe resoiu'ces of man. 0. The I'alher fanciful sn^f^cstion has hceii made Ihal drafls upon male life, caused hy lliuso iiileriiecinu conllicls, iinoKe tlu! survival o| Iho " lilies' " ,anil Ihal h\ inakiiiK lar^c drafls from Ihe males Ihese con- llirls are prnvenled. We have heller uu'ans of knowing whellier Ihe conlesis are si ill carried on amon^ Ihe males Ihan n jirinri reasoning alVords. 'V\w finf is open lo (diservalion. Il is overwhclmin^'lv jiroved, and wilhonl any disseni, excepi Ihal of Kllioll, Ihal such conlesis are slill earnestly wa^ed. Itiit aside from I his, is il reasoiiahle lo suppose Ihal males en^a^cd in frecpienl coiilesN. hislin;; for hours and somelimes all day. and fre(pieiill\ resullin^ in dealli, are heller lill.'il for Ihe ofljce of reprodiiclion Ihan oilier males in a herd in which llieir proporlion lo that of females, and conse(|Uciitly Ihe occasion for such conlesis, was nuich less? 7. JMiially, Ihe ipuislion whether Ihe annual draft of 1(1(1,(10(1 which has heeii practiced npcui the island is excessive or nol, is also susceptihie of a conclnsine answer, nol allecled hy the iucerlainlies of u ininn reaso- ning. The experience of this herd for half a century leaves no room for doubt upon this poinl. \Sy\ know Ihal llu! Iliissiaus, whose drafls were governed, not hy the capacities of Ihe herd, hiil l)\ the demand in Ihe market, took during Ihe later period of llieir occupalion from (ifh lo seventy thousand youu^^ male annually, and that, under this drall, Ihe — 2336 — herd not only maiiitainoti its numbers, but very largely increased, and was, at llie time of the transfer to the United States, in a condition of aboundin},' pros|)erity. We know Ihat the United Slates, thereafter, in the face of an excessive and somewhat indiscriminate slaughter of 2in,00n in the year 18(58, regularly made the draft of 100,000 up to the year 188i, without ejecting any diminution in the normal num- bers of the herd, it is indeed probable that the eirccts of pelagic sealing had then begun to maivo Ihemselves manifest in a slight degree, and it is certain liial from that time they began to have a decisive influence. The United Stales has never pretended that it could safely continue to make the draft of 100,000 after the birlh-rale became diminished by Ihe effects of pelagic sealing. Had liic (Jovernment known, prior fo 18!»0, the extent of Ihc diminution llius ellected, it would undoubtedly have diminished its drafts and pressed more earnestly for the suppression ot this destruc- tive pursuit. Hut wlial is to be said of the consistency of those who, in the case ol a polygamous animal like the seal, insist that the annual taking of 100,000 vcung males is loo large, and tends to a diminution of the herd, and yet ii..Mst upon the continuance of a practice which, even when res- tricted and regulated as proposed by them, would necessarily involve the annual slaughter of 40,000 females, and probably many more? id, and tion of eaftor, ugliler ) up lo niim- sealiii}; 1(1 il is The make e (Tec Is extent lislied slnic- ase of ng of herd, 11 ros- vc. the I'lUNTi;:-. CHAMKUOT & UENOUARI) 19, rue dps Saiiits-P6ies, 19 PAUIS