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Un des symboies suivants apparaftra sur la dernidre Image de cheque microfiche, selon Ie cas: ie symbols —^ signifie "A SUIVRE", Ie symbols y signifie "FIN". re IMaps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to be entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc., peuvent Atre fiimte A des taux de reduction diffirents. Lorsque ie document est trop grand pour Atre reprodult en un seul cliche, 11 est film* i partir de i'angle supArieur gauche, de gauche A droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant Ie nombre d'Imagas nAcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mAthode. y errata id to nt ne peiure, i90n d f 2 3 32X 1 2 3 4 5 6 4 I I STATEMENT MADE BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, ON THE UNIVERSITY OF TOEONTO, IN REPLY TO THOSE OP Re?'d Drs. COOK, GREEN, STIN80N AND RYER80N. BY JOHN LANGTON, M. A., YIGS-CHAHCELLOB OF THE VNIVEB8ITT OF TOBONTO. fforonto: •LEADER' A ■ PATRIOT* STEAM-PRESS PRINT, LEADER BUILDINGS. 1860. i I STATEMENT MADE BEFORE THE COMMITTEE OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY, ON THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, IN REPLY TO THOSE OP Rev'd Drs. COOK, GREEN, STiNSON AND RYERSON. BY JOHN LANGTON, M. A., VICE-CHANCELLOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO. rotonto: LEADER' & ♦PATRIOT' STEAM-PRESS PRINT, LEADER BUILDINGS. 1860. i an< bel rep do< jud to ths pai COI of del Ur / juc Ul so t th( th( qu ■ ciu ha or of ref clc po on STATEMENT or JOHN LANGTON, M. A., Vice-Chanctllor of the University of ToroiUo. The method of investigation adopted by the Committee has been, that each of the gentlemen appearing on behalf of those who have prayed tor an enquiry, has put in as evidence a written statement of the faets and argu- ments, by which he substantiates his objections to the present constitution and arrangement of the University. In conformity with this arrangement, before answering such questions as may be put to me, I desire to submit a reply on behalf of the University of Torontof, with a reference to such documents as I believe will aid the Committee in coming to a correct judgment upon the questions before them. If my reply should be thought to extend to an unreasonable length, I hope the Committee will rememoer that each of these gentlemen has principally confined himself to one or two particular points, whilst I have to enter into them all; and that the complainants frequently make a general charge in a few words, the truth of which I can only enable the committee to judge of by examining it in detail. The subject naturally divides itself into three principal heads, > li^^ University, University College, and Upper Canada College, which musi r, judged of separately, although having many points of mutual connection. Upper Canada College is supported by a distinct endowment, and is only so far connected with the University, that the general superintendence of the Institution has been committed to the Senate. It is very proper that the subject should be enquired into, and I am prepared to go into the question of its management by the Senate ; but whatever may be the con- clusion of the Committee, whether the management be continued in the hands of the Senate, or be vested as formerly in a separate corporate body, or even if that College were to be altogether abolished, the main question of the constitution of the University would remain unaltered. With regard to University College, whilst on the one hand the connection is closer, as it is supported out of the same endowment, and forms an essential portion of the Provincial University as contemplated by the Legislature, on the other hand its internal government rests with a body entirely inde- Eendent of the Senate, and the details ol' its organization and discipline are eyond our controul. In this enquiry I only appear for the University, and it is not my intention to enter into (juestiona relating to the College, apart from its connection with the general scheme, iiidess in answer to questions which may bo put to me by the Committee. (1.) Legality of the Management of the University. It is argued tliat the Collegiate Institutions supported by the dilVerent denominations, have, by tlie Act, an equitable, if not a legal, right tu an apportionment of the University endowment. Dr. Cook supports this view upon what he conceives to be the well known and easily proved policy of the framers of the University Amendment Act; Dr. Stinson upon what ho considers "the plain letter and obvious design" of the Act itself. I cannot agree with either of them. It would be very unsafe to judge of the meaning and intention of an Act from the recollection of conversations with leading politicians, or even from the individual wishes of members of the Government, several years ago ; and still more so, from a clause in the Bill a« originally introduced, which does not appear in the Act as finally passed. If any conclusion is to be drawn from this latter fact, it is rather a presumption that the Legislature did not sanction the principle of the suppressed clause ; but that, it having been originally proposed to make a specific grant to certain Institutions, it was judged by the framers of the Bill, and by the Legislature, wiser to leave the appropriation of any surplus which might arise, after the main objects of the Act had been ac- complished, to future legislation. That the present 54th section cannot have been intended to carry out in other words the principle of the sup- pressed clause, is obvious from the fact that the latter expresses, as a condition of the grant, the abandonment of their Charters by the Colleges; whereas the former in no way limits the apportionment which may be made by Parliament of any surplus. Neither does the Act, as it stands, bear out the intention assigned to it by Dr. Stinson. To understand properly the meaning of the Preamble of the University Amendment Act, reference must be had to Mr. Baldwin's Act of 1849, which it repeals. The Preamble to the Act 12 Victoria, chapter 82, recites that " whereas the people of this Province consist of various denominations of Christians, to the members of each of which de- nominations, it is desirable to extend all the benefits of Uuiversity Educa- tion," &c. The Act, therefore, goes on to purge King's College of its denominational aspect, and under another name to constitute one central Institution in Toronto, both for teaching and examining, intended to be entirely free from all denominational bias. The 43rd section provides that any existing College, upon surrendering its right to confer Degrees, except in Divinity, may become affiliated ; but the only privilege they obtain thereby is the power of electing Members to the Senate. The only teaching Body, except in Theology, was to be the University of Toronto, and no Degree could be conferred except upon students who had gone through their regular course in Toronto. This being premised, the meaning of the Amendment Act is obyious. It recites in the Preamble that no Colleges have affiliated ; that 5 piireutH arc dotcrrod by the oxnonao and other causes, from sending young ineji to Toronto, and that it is just and right i^ afford facilities to those who pursue their studies clsowhore, to obtain Degrees and other Academical honors in the Provincial University, according to the system pursued in the University of London. The Act therefore goes on to establish the Univer- sity as a distinct Body ; to constitute University College out of the teaching sUiff of the former University, as a College supported by the State endow- ment; and the I7th section enacts that all existing Colleges in Upper and Lower Canmla, and such others as may afterwards bo so declared, shall have all the rights of Affiliated Colleges, and students who have pursued in any of them the course of study prescribed by the University, shall be as eligible for Degrees and other distinctions, as those educated in University College. This, then, is the remedy provided for an acknowledged grievance under the old law, and not, as is contended by Dr. Stinson, that the Denomi- national Colleges phould bo supported from the State Endowment. That the present 54th section could not have been intended as .iny pletlge that the Affiliated Colleges should receive pecuniary aid from the Endowment, is evident, if only from this fact, that no distinction is made in the affiliation between Colleges in Upper and in Lower Canada, and it will hardly bo contended that there was any intention of supporting Lower Canada Colleges out of an exclusively Upper Canadian Fund. Dr. Green is even more distinct in his assertion that the Act of 1849 was repealed for the avowed and clearly expressed purpose of providing for an extension of the Fund to the Denominational Colleges. It must strike the Committee as somewhat singular, that this avowed purpose should have been entirely unnoticed in the Act, except by the power given to I'arliament to deal heareafter with any surplus which might arise, for Acadeiuical education generally, and that the Act should only have assigned an altogether different reason for the repeal of Baldwin's Act, viz : that instead of pursuing all their studies in Toronto, students might be allowed to pursue them any where, as in the University of London. Dr. Green, thinking only of the money, accuses the Government and the Legislature of holding out fal- lacious promises ; the Legislature, thinking only of the convenience of the students, provided for them everything that it promised. I entirely concur in the view stated by almost all the gentlemen who have appeared before the Committee, that the true policy is to have one Central Body for conferring Degrees, which judges of candidates only by their proficiency in the subjects of examination prescribed, without regard to the Ct liege in which they have pursued their studies, or indeed whether they have been students in any incorporated College at all, a point strongly insisted upon by the Oxford Commissioners, (p. 213, c< i'^//., lleywootl's Ed.) and sanctioned by the revised charter of the University of London. For such a system of University Education the Amendment Act makes provision, and the Statutes framed by the Senate are adapted to give it effect. That the Denominational Colleges, whilst, praising it in theory, have not thought fit to adopt it in practice, is much to be regretted ; but the Uni- versity authorities are in no way to blame. It is not, as stated by Dr. Cook, that " the < ruvernment required, as a preliminary and necessary condition to affiliation, tliat Colleges having University powers, either from the Crown or by Provincial enactments, should surrender their powers," for no such 6 {iruviiiion Ih contaioo*! in tho Act. It in not, hh, in variouu forms, is aKMorted by tbo appelliints, that oxclusivo privilogos are givon to Univer- sitj College; for, ns will bo shown horcaftor, no such action has boon taken either by tiio Govorninont or tho Senate. One reason why the Dunomina- lionai Colleges have not adopted tho University oourao, htis been stated to bo that they are unable, from insufliciont means, to teach all the subjects required. It certainly cannot bo expected that each College should main- tain a staff of Professors capable of efHciently teaching, in their higher branches, all the subjects embraced in the University course — a very strong argument in favor of maintaining one I'rovincial College that can ; but by the system of options permitted, this would not debar their students from entering tho University, and competing for honors in departments which their College can teacn well. But there is a reason beyond this. It is not that any part of the machinery is wanting to establish in Canada a system similar to that which works so well in England, that has formed a bar to the full carrying out of the Act as yet; but it is the desire of Denomina- tional Colleges to have them supported from Provincial Funds, a desire inconsistent with the well known feelings of the people of Upper Canada, and at variance with the principle upon which all our other Nation.'il Educational Institutions have been established. As far as Academical studies and rewards are concerned, the Act proposed to itself the Univer- sity |of London as a model, but in relation to endowment it distinctly recognizes a difference ; whereas in England no Government aid is given to any of the AflSliated Colleges as such, in Canada, as in Ireland, the Legislature founded and endowed one non-denominational College, which otherwise has no privileges over the others. (2) Equal rights of all Ajjiliated Colleges. It is contended that the intention of the Act has been frustrated by the action of Government, and of the University, which have pursued the policy of building up one College to the exclusion of all others. This charge is mostly expressed in general language, but there are some few cases where it is made in a tangible shape. Dr. Cook instances " its (the College's) numerous scholarships," but he must be aware, or, before making the charge, should have informed him- self, that the University Scholarships are as open to the students of Queen's as of University College. They are not even, as Professor Weir says he understands they are, practically confined to University College, for many of them are held by Students who have no connection with that Institu- tion. Again Dr. Ryerson complains, that the annual examinations make it too burdensome for students educated out of Toronto to attend ; but as a member of the Senate, Dr. Ryerson should be aware, that no student in any affiliated College is required to appear except at the examination for the second year, and at the final examination ; a certificate from the head of his College that he has satisfactorily passed in it the examinations required for matriculation, first year, and third year, being sufficient to admit him to his standing ; an arrangement adopted by the Senate with the special view of accommodating the Colleges which are not situated in Toronto. fi \ forms, is ) Uiiivor- 011 taken i^noininn- Htutod to subjects lid main- higher Tj strong ; but by nts from ts which It is not a system a bar to inomina- a desire Canada, National ademical > Univer- iistinctly is given and, the e, which d by the sued the 8. This ome few but he ed him- Queen'a says he )r many Institu- ke it too }ut as a ident in tion for le head inations sient to te with situated .1 \ All the parties who have appeared have complained of the appointment of three Professors of University College upon the Senate. It must be remembered that the Senate as originally constituted, with the head of each educational institution as an ex officio member, had been in existence for three years before these appointments were made, and yet the denom- inational Colleges had not only taken no steps to take advantage of the Act, but one of them had even expressly declined to recognize its affilia- tion. It is therefore not surprising that the Government in the absence oi the assistance which might have been expected from them, should give the Senate the advantage of the practical experience of gentlemen of such acknowledged learning as Dr. Croft, Dr. Wilson, and Professor Cherriman. There is one point connected with this charge which I cannot pass over, as it implies an imputation against tlioso gentlemen. It is stated by Dr. Cook, and it was as broadly assorted by Dr. Ryerson, in his oral evidence, that th^ Professors form part of a body which fixes their own salaries, though, as it appears in print, the latter gentleman's charge is somewhat modified. I have reason to know that Dr. Cook stated this in ignorance of the facts, but Dr. Ryerson is certainly fully cognizant of them. The salaries of the Professors aio determined by order in Council, and not by the Senate. It has indeed twice occurred, that His Excellency has referred to the Senate for has not ^reat his al that a , unfortu- 'er which Toronto spare the fessor of declined 'rofessers y wrong om have iner with part in t can be upon his tionable ; re to be Id hardly ig more made a ition. I Queen's several ess there [t is also as LOW, ) on the tleman's ', that it But the len held k', never- ly other ipon the ive been ess they o action liversity position arising is pro-* Member e other to; and 9 as the Government Iiave never acted upon that clause in the Statute giving thom that power, by assigning the old Library for the use of either the College or the University, whilst to the Senate is entrusted the duty of making additions to it, a similar clause exists in the Statute respecting the Library Committee. (3.) Expenditure of tJie Universiiy, The next head of complaint which is made is the alleged extravagance of the expenditures upon the University and University College. It is argued that even if the denominational Colleges have no claim to any specific appropriation, and I deny that they have any, they have at least a con- tingent interest in any surplus which may remain after the University and University College have been maintained in a state of efficiency, and which Parliament may devote annually to the support of Academical education in Upper Canada, in any manner which it may judge to be most conducive to the interests of the country, instead of its being necessarily applied, as formerly, to the increase of the permanent fund. Whether there had been any such provision or not, I admit that any extravagance of expenditure which may exist should be ^'^quired into and checked. It remains, there- fore, to inquire whether the expenditure has been unon a scale dispropor- tioned to the wants of the Provincial Institutions, for directing and for practically carrying out the higher branches of Education. The principal points insisted on are the Buildings, the Library and Museum, the Pro- fessorial Staff, Examinations, and Scholarships. These I will reply to separately ; but, before doing so I must be allowed to allude to an implied charge against myself. Dr. Ryerson, in his evidence before the Committee, merely alluded in passing to the salaried Vice-Chancellor, who audited the expenditure which he had himself authorized; but in the printed document put forth by the Conference in support of their memorial, intended to pro- duce its effect in another sphere, the same point is more frequently insisted upon, and it is stated that some undue influence has been exerted toprevent the publication of the Accounts. As Provincial Auditor, it is certainly my duty to see that the Bursar makes no improper use of the public monies, and produces vouchers for all his expenditure, and his accounts are accord- ingly examined in my office as all others are; but, as Auditor, I have no more power to interfere with the objects of the expenditure, than I have with Dr. Ryerson's distribution of the Grants placed under his superin- tendance. As to the publication of the Accounts, the Bursar is required by law to lay them annually before Parliament; and whether they are printed or not rests with the Printing Committee, and not with me. Before going into details I must also explain a point, which the public would never gather from the evidence of the gentlemen at whose instance this inrestigat'on is made, viz. : that the endowment, consisting of lands in various parts of the Province; requires an extensive establishment to manage it, and is, in fact, a department of Government over which the University authorities have no controls "Whether its arrangements may not be economised, is a question which the Committee may ascertain from the evidence of the Bursar j but as for as the University authorities are B 10 concerned, it is the net revenue only which they have to deal with, and this is all which at present is available for academical education. The revenue in the proceeding evidence is spoken of as $60,000 or $70,000 ; and by adding to it that of Upper Canada College it is set down by Dr. Ryerson as $80,000 ; but the highest amount which the net revenue ever reached was $5G,000, in 1856, when the run after land was at the highest, and the average net revenue since 1853, has only been $48,000. It will be for the Committee to decide, whether this amount is so much more than a Provincial University can require, as it has been argued, and whether it is sufficient I'o be divided amongst the numerous claimants, without destroying the object for which it was set apart. Buildings. It is objected generally to the expenditure on the buildings, that the Act, which contemplates only additions to the present buildings, does not authorise new ones on a new site. Unfortunately, in the same session when the University Amendment Act was passed, another Act gave the Government authority to take possession of the property for Provincial purposes, and the University and College were ejected, and temporarily accommodated in the Parliament Buildings. When, in 1855, the Seat of Government returned to Toronto, the College was again moved, and tem- porary additions were made to the old Medical School, which rendered it available for a time ; but this had become perfectly inadequate to the accommodation of the College before the new buildings were ready ; and the frame additions were so temporary in their construction, that the Bursar has reported to me, now that it has returned into his possession, that it would be more economical to pull them down and sell the material, than to put them in effectual repair. The stone building, originally intended for the College, is still in the occupation of Government for another public object. If then the Act is to be interpreted in the literal sense given to it by Dr. Cook and others, there were no buildings to which to make the additions. This, however, is not the view to take of the question. The Act had established a central University and a College, endowed from public funds, with a staff of efficient professors. It was necessary to provide a building for their occupation, and especially to provide the means of accommodating resident students, without which one of the great advantages of a University education would have been lost. Such an insti- tution was not intended to be of an ephemeral character, to be moved about, as convenience dictated, from one public building to another ; and as the endowment fortunately supplied the means, it has been provided with a durable home, worthy of the position it holds in the country, and of a still higher destiny which the rapidly increasing number of its students shows that it is destined to achieve. The (Jlovernment of the day, therefore, wisely, as I think, exercised the undoubted power given by the Act, and authorized the Senate to expend .£'75,000 out of the Permanent Fund for this purpose. 11 ith, and n. The 70,000 ; a by Dr. nue ever highest, t will be ore than hether it without i the Act, lioes not 3 session gave the Provincial mporarily 3 Seat of ind tem- idered it to the idy; and le Bursar , that it , than to mded for ler public ven to it make the on. The ved from essary to he means Jie great I an insti- ed about, id as the I with a of a still ts shows therefore, Act, and Fund for Library and Mnsciwi. The Government also authorized the expenditure, from the same source, of £20,000 upon a Library and Museum. It is objected that such an ox- pendituie is foreign to the purposes for which the University was established ; but I can hardly think that the Committee and the Lvigislature will enter- tain that view. There is not a University or College in the world of any standing which has not already ac(iuired, or is not accumulating, a Library and Museum, as essential to the prosecution of the higher studies. Dr. Cook partially, it would seem, admits of a Library, but he would have it to belong to the College and not to the University, and would give out of the endowment a similar sum to all other Colleges for their Libraries. Now, it must be remembered, that although the University and the College are distinct in their functions, the College, or teaching body, forms an essential part of the University scheme, as established by the Act, and whether the Library be supposed to belong to the one body or to the other, is immaterial, provided it be estabhshed. As the University, however, re- presents the whole country, as the heads of all educational institutions, and the representatives of all denominations find a place in it, I think it letter that the management and control shoud be vested in the Senate than in the College. But to expend the money in forming five or six collections is utterly to ignore the great use of a public Library. The ordinary text books used in education, the classical authors in various languages, the books of reference in common use, are not so numerous as to be beyond the reach of any College, or even of many private individuals ; but there is anothor class of books Avhich you will not find there, consisting principally of books of reference of a more special character, not so often used it is true, but as essential when occasions for consulting them occur ; and those numerous periodical publications issued by learned and scientific bodies in various parts of the world, in Avhich almost all new views and discoveries first make their appearance, and without access to which a scholar or a man of science in this country would have to remain contented with his ignorance, till years after all Europe had been turning their attention to something new, he gathered the information from some digest published in a more popular and accessible form. Such publications, often of a very costly kind from their limited circulation, can only be found in a public Library; and, until Canada possesses such a collection, she must be content to remain in a position of inferiority, ill adapted to her growing wealth and intelligence. Such a collection the Senate has been authorized to form and is now acquiring, and it has provided for giving the public the freest access to it. Professors in University College, It is argued also that the professorial staiF in University College is beyond the wants of the country, and the charge excessive. As to the rate of remuneration I may fortunately appeal to the appellants themselves. Dr. Cook admits that the salary of a Professor should be at least £500 a year, and that he would rather see it £600, and none of the other gentle- men have appeared to dispute his views. It is true that in a later portion 12 of his evidence, when driven to the necessity of keeping his proposed ex- penses within a sum to whicli he would limit the expenditure of University and College, he has been compelled to confine himself to the lower amount; but I would rather accept his opinion on the abstract question, than when modified to suit a predetermined result. Now the amounts approved of by Dr. Cook are very nearly those at which the salaries of tho Professors in University College are fixed by the present Order in Council, viz: £500, rising with length of service to £650. It is therefore only against tho number of Professors that there can be any cause of complaint, and Dr. Cook's proposition is to reduce them by striking oft* five, viz : History and English Literature, Modern Languages, Agriculture, Meteorology and Oriental Languages, and by combining the present three I'rofessorships in the NKtural Sciences into two. To a certain extent I agree with Dr. Cook, but on other points I differ from him entirely. I do not believe that the Professorships of Agriculture, which have been established either here or in any other University, have answered the expectations of those who founded them ; and I do not think that it is in tho nature of the subject that they should. Meteorology is also too limited a subject to form an exclusive chair, and all that is necessary of it might well be taught by the Professor of allied sciences. The history of the foundation of the chair may not be known to the Committee. The British Government having established, and for years maintained, the Meteorological Observatory, determined to abandon it. The Provincial Government, feeling that we had just cr.a.^o to be proud of the results obtained there, gave an annual grant for its maintenance, and proposed to connect it with the University. When the proposition was submitted to the Senate, Dr. McCaul, the Vice-Chancellor, moved, seconded by Dr. Ryerson — "That the Senate will gladly co-operate with the Government in carrying out the plan for the organization of the Observatory, which has been approved by his Excellency the Governor General, and will accordingly pass the necessary Statute for the establish- ment of Graduate Scholarships, — and thus, as proposed in the above- mentioned communication, contribute towards the expen£e of the establish- ment the amount of the stipends of the scholars, in addition ^to one-third of the salary of the Director of the Observatory and Professor of Meteor- ology, &c., &c." The idea of the Scholarships was dropped on further consideration, but the Professorship remains, and the subject has been in- troduced into the University course, but only as an optional one, not because it was considered an essential part of academical study, but because there was a Chair in the College, and it was thought some Undergraduates might wish to pursue the study, especially those who were intending to teach Grammar Schools, in which a system of meteorological observations has been established. I think that it was a mistake to connect the Obser- vatory with the College, but as long as Government maintains it, I see no objection to its continued connection with the University, and the Director, if disconnected with the College, might very properly have a seat on the Senate. I agree also with Dr. Cook that the study of Oriental Languages is not a necessary portion of a College education, and the Senate has made it optional throughout. It more properly belongs to tho Faculty of Divinity. f 13 posed ex- Jniversity ir amount; han when (proved of Professors riz: £500, gainst the ,, and Dr. istory and alojiy and iorships in I Dr. Cook, 3 that the 3r here or those who ubject that ,n exclusive B Professor nay not be jstablished, ermined to just Cl.a.^O mt for its When the Chancellor, T co-operate ition of the e Governor le establish- the above- le establish- to one-third * of Meteor- on further has been in- al one, not , but because lergraduates intending to observations t the Obser- it, I see no the Director, seat on the j Languages ite has made \ Faculty of I On two other points I partially agree with Dr. Cook. If funds were insufficient, two Professors in the Natural Sciences might be made to take the place of our three, although I would adopt a different arrangement, viz., Geology and Natural History which are intimately allied, and Chemistry and Mineralogy, which latter can only be studied effectively in connection with the former. But it is only rarely that you can obtain a man equally and thoroughly versed in those separate branches, and in almost all Univer- sities separate chairs exist, and the subjects are even more subdivided than with us. Again, a chair of Modem Languages, in the sense of teaching the languages themselves, and not the principles of comparative philology, appears to mb very inadvisable. It could only be efficiently filled under very peculiar circumstances. But when Dr. Cook and other witnesses condemn the ttudy of the Modern Languages in a University, I differ from them toto coelo. I believe that there should be no single Professorship, but Lectureships in each separate Language, or two or more combined in one Lectureship, according to the individuals that can be procured to teach. French, in a country circumstanced like Canada may well be considered essentia], and now that Latin has ceased to bo the common language of educated men, and three quarters of the learning and science of the world is published in French or German, no man should pass through a Univer- sity who has not acquired at least one of them. History and English Literature I also consider essential, and I cannot conceive that there is anything in the study of these two subjects, which makes them less adapted to be taught by Lectures, as argued by Dr. Ryerson, than in that of any other subject of education. 1 cannot indeed imagine that Dr. Ryerson himself perceives any such difference, for when the question is put to him (No. 13) he diverges into a disquisition upon German Universities, and admits that his remark applies to Lectures " in the German Sense" as distinguished from the usual meaning of the word. In the " University Sense," it seems, he does not think History a subject which cannot be taught by Lectures. Dr. Ryerson has triumphantly quoted the Report ol the Queen's University Commissioners, which recommends the abolition of the Chair of Agriculture, but he ought to have added that they do not recommend the abolition of those of Modern Languages and of English Literature and History, nor the compression of the three Chairs of theN atural Sciences into two. As to the importance of those subjects, I shall have occasion to return to them when I come to the subject of options. I would only now remark that the witnesses who have been heard in favor of Latin and Greek, and Mathematics, being the proper Studies of a University, and most of the rest mere works of supererogation, run counter to the daily growing opinion of all the best authorities upon University Education in Europe, as I shall shew from the published opinions of the Commissioners on the English Universities. In thus stilting my concurrence with some points of Dr. Cook's scheme, I wish to be understood as explaining what would be my recommendation, if called upon to organize a new college in circumstances similar to those of University College, and what should be kept in view for future arrange- ments, as opportunity offers. But I by no means wish to say that existing I ill: 14 professors, who have accepted their offices on the faith of the Government, should be dismissed, and I feel convinced that neither would the Com- mittee recommend, nor the Legislature sanction such injustice. It must also be borne in mind that the University, which is charged with extrava. gance, is in no way responsible for this organization, which was adopted before it had any existence. The Professor of Agriculture and the Lecturer on Oriental Languages are amongst the oldest of those connected with the teaching staff, and all the other chairs which Dr. Cook would abolish, with the exception of that of Heterology, formed the establishment which the Act provided should be supported out of the endowment. The University is not even responsible for by far the greater part of the increase which has been made to the rate of salaries, though I for one do not think it excessive. In the printed document put forth by the Conference in support of their Memorial, the salaries of the Professors at the passing of the University Act are set down at £4497, including Librarian and servants. This does not give quite a correct view of the case, as the salaries of the four newly appointed Professors only appear for seven months in the accounts of that year; but Dr. Ryerson, desirous of shewing a still larger increase, goes back to 1850, before the addition to the staff which the Act of 1853 provides for. He states that " it cannot be claimed that the Faculty of Arts is more efficient for the legitimate purposes of a University College than it was in 1850, yet, since then, its expenses have been in- creased from £3350 to £7670," leaving out of view the fact that in the meantime five new Professorships and a Tutorship have been created, some of which, even in Dr. Cook's view, are necessary ; and giving the present cost, however arrived at, £1420 greater than the greatest amount paid to Professors in one year. The true difference is this. The salaries of the Professors and Lecturer, as established in 1853, were £3930. From the 1st of January 1854, the salaries of the newly appointed Professors were put upon the same footing as those of the old ones, making the amount £4430, and this was done, be it observed, before the Senate was constituted, and by the same Ministry who are represented to have made, six months before, such generous provision for the Denominational Colleges, which we, it is said, have rendered of none effect. The present salaries, including the Classical Tutor and Professor of Meteorology, since added, are £6070, being an increase of 44 per cent, upon those of 1854, and of 54 per cent, upon those of 1853. This is not more than the increase made in almost all salaries during the same period. In a somewhat allied branch of the Public Service, for instance, the salaries of the educational staffs, east and west, were £900 in 1854, and the same officers now receive £1776 and £1800, respectively, being an increase of 100 per cent., without reckoning the increased number of the staff. Salaries in the University. » Besides the salaries of the Professors in the College, there are three con*- nected with the University, the Vice-Chancellor's, the Librarian's and the Registrar's, which Dr. Cook would abolish, or materially reduce. He admits that, if the Librarian gives his whole time, he must have a sufficient 15 »verninent, the Coin- It must ,h extrava. IS adopted I and the connected )ok would iblishment lent. The le increase > not think iference in passing of (I servants, ries of tlie ths in the still larger ch tha Act 1 that the University e been in- tbat in the lated, some he present mt paid to iries of the From the issors were he amount onstituted, ix months which we, eluding the ire £6070, 4 per cent. ) in almost nch of the east and jl1l5 and reckoning three con'^ I's and the uce. He a sufficient salary ; but it is suggested that some one of the students might be employed, and that ho might also perform the duties of Registrar, whilst the salary of the Vioe-Chancellor he would abolish altogether. It is true that, if the Library were made a mere college library, it might be locked up, as I have known to be the practice in small colleges, and a Librarian might be in attendance for half an hour a day to give out books, and a promising student might well have some small allowance for attending to this duty. But if it is to be open to the public, which I submit to be a much more proper'application of public funds, it is clear that a competent person must be emplo) ed at a fair salary. To appoint a student would be to injure him for life, as interfering with his studies. The Registrar is an equally necessary officer, and he is not overpaid for thp work that falls upon him. Gentlemen, who are not acquainted with the practical details, can easily get rid of the office, or throw its duties upon another officer, whom, be it remembered, they have already declared to be unnecessary for the Univer- sity ; but the fact, that two Registrars have already resigned, upon the ground that they could not afford to devote the necessary time to the duties of the office, is enough to show that the work is not overpaid. In fact I do not believe that any competent person would undertake the office per- manently, although the salary may be an object to a young man at first starting in life, and therefore prove a useful reward for distinguished young graduates. As to the Vice-Chancellor's salary, I admit that, if funds are insufficient, it is the first that should be reduced. Not that it is too high for the duties that fall on that officer, but that any person who is worthy of filling the office, would accept the labour and responsibility from zeal for the institution, and for the honorable position which it gives him. I found the office iu existence with a salary attached, when I came to reside in Toronto. Since I was appointed no member of the University will be found to bay that I have not given full work for my hire ; but if there had been no salary I should have equally accepted the office, and I trust I should as zealously have discharged its duties, as a labor of love ; but it has not been found prudent in practice to rely upon the gratuitous per- formance of important duties, and therefore I think that a salary was wisely attached to the Vice-Chancellorship. ' Examiners. The next head of expenditure specially referred to, is the allowance \o Examiners — officers who, it is thought, may also be obtained gratuitously. I have already alluded to the difficulty of obtaining proper persons on any terms, but, unless for an adequate remuneration, it would be impossible. Let us look into the question of cost, which was in 1857, ^2160, reduced iu 1858 to $2000, and 1859, to $1760, and let us compare it with the cost in similar bodies elsewhere. I find in the Estimates of 1857, [1857 — XXXIV] the sum set down for Examiners in the Queen's University, Ire- land, £1510, stg., or $7,348, and it is stated in a note that, in the previous year, 44 persons were examined. In the Report of the same University for 1860, the cost of Examiners is estimated at £1450, stg., or $7056, and the number of students examined during the previous year is given as 78. 16 Taking the latter jear as the most favorable, our examiners, in 1859, examined more than twice the number at just onefourth of the cost. Again in the same estimates, I find the Examiners in the University of London set down for £2560, stg., or $12,458. I find also in its Calendar of 1859, that in the year 1857, 151 students matriculated, and 109 degrees were con- ferred, and allowing a number equal to the matriculants for those who came up to the intermediate examination, which is not given, these Examiners must have examined 410 persons, at the rate, in the aggregate, of about $30 per head, whilst ours were paid at the rate of less than $10 per head. It may be proper to state in regard ^o this comparison, that a considerable part of the expenses of the University of London is paid by fees, and re- duciRg the estimate for the Examiners, which is about half of the whole cost, by the same proportion of the fees, the cost to the country is with them only about $22 per head, whilst if our matriculation fees are deducted, the similar charge is reduced to about 8^ per head. Perhaps, in conse- quence of my habits as Auditor, I may be excused for entering into these financial details, although I admit that cost is not always the test of efficiency, But when the question is raised, whether the Examiners are overpaid, the true test of their work is the number of students they have to examine, and I cannot think that either our learning or our wealth is so inferior in Canada, that $10 is too high a remuneration here, for services which in London and Dublin are paid at the rate of $30 and $90 respec- tively. i Scholarships. The remaining item of expenditure specially referred to as extravagant, is the allowance for scholarships, and here I admit, that, if the allegations of the Petitioners were true, a strong case would have been made out against the University. But they are not true. I do not, for a moment suppose, that Dr. Green would slate anything to the Committee, which he did not believe to be correct ; but having undertaken to give evidence upon a subject, with which he had made himself but slightly acquainted, he has fallen into an error. I do not know how he has obtained the proportion which he has stated, between the scholarships and students, 34 amongst 37, but I suspect it has been by a process, which he himself must have perceived to be a dangerous one, viz. : by taking the number of scholarships from the returns of the University, and that of the students from the returns of the College. An examination of the same official documents, would have shewn him that in 1856, the year referred to, 76 students were examined, and 35 saholarships awarded, or, excluding those who were not entitled to compete for scholarships, 35 were awarded amongst 61. This is undoubtedly a high proportion. When the University was first estab- llslied upon its present basis, the Senate, acting upon the authority given them by the Act, established 90 scholarships. Tlie number may certainly have been disproportionod to the students continuing on from the old University, but not to what they might be expected to become, or to what they would have been, had the denominational Colleges thought fit to send their students to compete. Believing the number, however, to be too great 17 , in 1859, Ett. Again of London X of 1869, i were con- who came Examiners 9, of about ' per head, ^nsiderablo ss, and re- the whole iry is with 3 deducted, in conse- into these he test of miners are ley have lo ealtli is so 'or services 90 respoc- ctravagant, allegations made out a moment , which he ence upon ed, he has )roportion amonofst must havo holarships from the ocuments, lents wero » were not 61. This irst estab- •ity given r certainly the old r to what fit to send too great under exi»ting circumstances, one of my first measures, after I became Vie* Chancellor, in 1856, was to reduce the number offered for competition from 90 to 61, and I would have made a still greater reduction, with the view ofmaking subsequent additions, as they might be required, had not the general feeling ot the Senate been against it. I am happy, however, to be able to state, that if 61 was too large a number in 1856, it will not be found to be so in 1860, the number of students having grown up to the provision made for them in this respect, as was, no doubt, contemplated when the scholarships were originally founded. But as this enquiry is not taking place in 1856, when the new organization had just been completed, but after it has been in operation for five years, (a small period, it must be allowed, for the growth of a University,) it will be necessary to show how the scholarships have been distributed in the succeeding years. The following table wiU shew the number awarded in each succeeding year, and the number of students entitled to compete for them, with the proportion between the two, and the amount per student which the scholarships have cost, with a view to comparison with other analogous institutions. 1855 1856 1857 1858 1859 No. of Scholar- sbipn awarded. 33 35 48 51 45 Proportion of w No. of Students Scholarships to Coat per Stn* ^competing. competitors. Cost in the year. dent. 64 61 123 143 196 1 to 1.94 1 to 1.75 1 to 2.56 1 to 2 . 80 1 to 4.35 $3,200 4,633 4,973 6,140 6,013 $50 76 40 43 30 N. B. — As the financial year and the scholastic year do not correspond the proportions of Scholarships to Students, and of cost per Student, do not exactly agree. I will now compare this statement with what is done in other Univer- sities. With the University of London it is not easy to make a comparisone as its arrangements differ from ours in two essential particulars. 1st. The University of London was founded for the purpose of giving scholastic honors to Students in a great number of Institutions already existing on their own endowments, and others which might be founded. The State, only proposed to provide an organization for the eneouraffement of learning, and not for the support of either Teachers or Students. In Canada, on the other hand, both objects were contemplated. Scholarships, therefore, many of which already existed in the separate Colleges, were, m the Univer- sity of London, a secondary consideration. 2nd. Their Scholarships are tenable for two or three years, whilst ours must be competed for annually. As our course, therefore, is one of four years, to institute a fair comparison with the usual English system, our 60 Scholarships should only count as fifteen, or theirs should be increased, in proportion to the number of years for which they are held. Strictly speaking, they have annually only 9 Scholarships ; but there are 8 Exhibitions, ranging from i!30 to JC40 stg., which are the same thing under another name. But there are always 40 individuals holding the 17 Scholarships and Exhibitions, and it is the same thing for our purpose, whether a student upon examination obtains a Scho-^ larship and holds it for three years, or whether he has to contend at the end 18 of every year for the continued possession ot it. With this explanation, it appears that in the University or London 40 Scholarships are held by about 400 Students, or by about 1 in 10, and at the cost of about $20 per Student, — a much less proportion than with us, but by no means at so much less a cost. A case much more nearly resembling our own is to be found in the Queen^s University, Ireland. The circumstances of the two countries are not rery dibsimilar. The comparative poverty of the country, the general absence of good endowed schools, which form such a remarkable feature io the educational poailion of England, and the great denominational differ- ences which exist there, are all strong points of resemblance, and dictated the same policy, of not only establishing a central University, but «f endowing here one, and there three, Colleges, entirely free from denomina- tional influences. The recent origin, also, of both Universities, is favorable to a fair comparison. The only difference so far as relates to the subject immediately before us is, that here the Scholarships are founded by the University, and may bo held by the Students of any College, or even by a person attendiikf none, whilst there, each endowed College has its own set of Scholarships. I think there can be little doubt that in this respect ours is the better and more liberal system. In each of the three Colleges there are endowed by the State, 10 senior Scholarships, of £40 each, and 45 junior ones ranging in value from £15 to £4. They are annual, as with us, and as with us, are not all necessarily awarded. I have not found perfect annual returns from these Colleges, and from Qalway none which give the Scholarships in a reliable shape ; but I subjoin a statement for the last two years I can find for the Colleges at Cork and Belfast, in a similar form to that which I have given for the University of Toronto. Scholarships No. of Corn- awarded, petitors. Cork, 14 1856 1859 Belfast 1857 1" 1859 44 47 51 48 144 125 153 159 Proportion. 1 to 3.27 1 to 2.66 Ooit. $6,944 $6,792 Colt per Student. $54 1 to 3 . 00 ^^'^ °°* given, but u the^en- _ e'co 'Jowment is the same, it must 1 to 5.53 be in a very similar proportion I find also a return from all the three Colleges, giving the number of their students holding Scholarships and Exhibitions, for every year, from 1850, including apparently the Exhibitions given by the University. I subjoin the substance of it at three periods, to show the increase of students, and the decrease of the cost per head, as compared with us. Three Colleges 1860 132 220 1 to 1.66 $74 " 1855 156 307 1 to 1.96 $57 , " 1859 153 385 1 to 2.51 $50 Thus it will be seen that even at the commencement, the comparison was a little in our favor, and that we in five years hare reduced the proportion to 1 in 4^, and the average cost to $30, whilst they in ten years have only reduced them to 1 in 2^ and $60. It may be useful to institute a similar comparison with the older Univer- sities, though the data are not so accessible, and the circumstances are more various. At Trinity, Dublin, it will be seen from the calendar of 1867, that there are 70 scholarships on the foundation, 107 scholarships and ex- i I nation, it . by about r Student, uch less a nd in the . intries are le general feature in nal diflfer- d dictated y, but ©f denomina- s favorable ;he subject led by the even by a its own set ispect ours leges there ;h, and 45 lal, as with not found lone which lent for the 1 a similar Coit per Student. 146 $54 but u the^en* same, it must ilar proportion number of year, from iversity. I of students, $U , $57 $50 parison was proportion i have only der Univer- ses are more ar of 185*7, ips and ex- I V 4 19 hibitions not on the foundation, and 30 sizerships. As in the other older Universities they are not competed for annually, but the number of Scho- larships, Exhibitions and Sizarships held are 207 amongst about 850 stu- dents in 1857, but the number more generally exceeds 1,000, or about 1 to 5, — nearly the same proportion as with us last year; whilst the annual value, which varies somewhat, may be set down as £7,500 sterling, or, on the average, $36 per student, a not very dissimilar proportion. From the report of the Royal Commissioners, who theirselves could not always obtain reliable information, it appears that at Cambridge, including the Colleges and the University, there are about 645 scholarsliips, or 1 to about 2 students. The cost is not accessible except for Emmanuel College, which, having no fixed Scholarships, divides nonually JCIOOO sterling, amongst about 80 under-graduates, or about at the rate of $60 per student. This statement however, as well as that for Trinity, Dublin, cannot be ex- actly compared with us, as most of the Scholarships are tenable for some- time after graduation, and many are of inconsiderable value, and two or more may be held by the same individual. But on the other hand, the statement for Cambridge does not include Exhibitions and Sizarships, which are very numerous. St. John's alone, with from 200 to 300 under-gradu- ates, has, according to the Commissioners, 124 scholarships, and besides this, according to the Cambridge Calendar, about 100 exhibitions, one of which is worth JElOO a year and four are worth £70 ; and it is to its wealth in this respect that it mainly owes the distinction of producing even more high honor men, many of whom are from the humbler classes, than its great rival Trinity. At Oxford the information is more precise in some respects, and more capable of comparison with ourselves, as the number of under-graduates holding Scholarships is given, as well as the total cost. In the statistical table appended to Mr. Hey wood's edition of the recommendations of the Oxford Commissioners, the number of under graduates'* on the foundation," which will include most Scholars, but not Exhibitionists, is given as 233, and the whole number of undergraduates as 1222, or one in 5^, and the value of their stipends is given as £8,700 Stg,, or at the average rate of $31 per student. This it will be perceived is just the average rate in the Univer- sity of Toronto in the year 1869, but the Royal Commissioners do not think even this enough. Their thirty-fifth recommendation is : " That any surplus remaining, after making due provision for the Fellows, should be applied to increase the number and value of Scholarships, and that no Scholarship should be of less amount than £50 a year." In the body of their report, (p. 94, et seq. Heywood's edition) they enter upon this sub- ject at large ; they say : " We are of opinion that it is a matter of the highest importance, that scholarships should be augmented where they are of inconsiderable value, and that they should also be greatly increased in number." " To the efficiency of the Colleges, open Scholarships, to supply good learners, are as essential as open fellowships [in Canada, we may sub- stitute a« liberal salarieSy] are to supply good teachers. Some judgment of the infiuence of open Seholarships on the utility and honour of a College may be formed from the amount.of University distinctions obtained by the several colleges. It will be found, that they more nearly correspond to the number of the open Scholarships offered to undergraduates, than to the I i ' 91 20 other merits and advantages of the respectiye societies." Then follow the changes they recommend in the several endowments, and they add : '^ By these simple changes we calculate that nearly 500 Scholarships of the value of £60 a year or more, besides rooms, might be provided, of which, at least lOU would become vacant annually." Supposing that these Scholarships were so arranged, as with us, that the fortunate candidates had to contend annually for the retention of them, instead of holding them for five yean without further competition, the whole 600 would be competed for annual- ly by about 1200 students, or they would be about as 1 to 2^ students, at an average cost of $100 per student, as compared with ours last year, 1 to 4-|^, at an average cost of $30 per student, which Dr. Cook would further reduce to a sum which, even if our students never increased beyond the present number, would only be $10 per student. I must apologi/e for the length at which I have treated this subject, but it is one of vital importance, and even more so, perhaps, in this country than in England. The University Act authorized the Senate to endow Scholarships for the aid and encouragement of students, and that it was no niggardly endowment that was originally contemplated is shewn by the intention expressed in the Bill to endow two for each county in Upper Canada. This clause was withdrawn, principally at my own instigation, not because it was excessive in amount, but because it was falling back upon the old idea, which was being abandoned in England, of close Scho- larships. The Senate, therefore, created these open Scholarships, more truly open than those recommended by the Oxford Commissioners, inasmuch as, though obtainable by any one, theirs can only be held in a particular College, whilst ours, — be it said once for all, in spite of the repeated asser- tions of different witnesses, that they are intended to lure students away from the minor Colleges— are unconnected with any College. A student of Queen's or Victoria may hold one, if he can obtain it, and may continue to pursue his studies there ; or a young man who can come up to the standard may hold one, whether he belong to any college or not, and many are so held. All that we require is that he sball compete with the whole Pro- vince before us, and that he shall proceed to his Degree in the Provincial University, from Avhose endowment he has benefited. I have now gone through the principal items in which we are accused of having misappropriated the University endowment, and I am quite content that the Committee shall judge between us. Some minor items are also instanced, as a Commission of Inquiry with which the University had noth- ing to do ; and Incidentals, an item ingeniously made up by combining the contingent expenses of managing the endowment with the incidental ex- penses of the University and College,although given separately in the accounts. Many of the minor items are exceptional in their character, and others have been reduced. If any remain which are excessive, let them be re- duced also ; but let not the eflSoiency of the teaching staff of the College, and the power of the University to reward and encourage meritorious stu- dents, be impaired. .. , .....j; 1.; tn follow the r add : " By of the value liioh, at least Scholarships 1 to contend :>r five years 1 for annual- students, at last year, 1 rould further beyond the subject, but this country te to endow . that it was hewn by the y in Upper instigation, falling back ■ close Scho- j, more truly nasmuch as, a particular )eated asser- away from student of continue to the standard nany are so whole Pro- Provincial accused of lite content OS are also r had noth- abining the idental ex- le accounts, sind others lem be re- le College, [>rious stu- i CompartUive Expenditwre of the Uniyeraity qf Toronto^ and other Uhi/veriUies. Dr. Kyerson, who does not go into details, gives a comparative state- ment of the expenses of different Canadian Educational Institutions. I have not attempted to verify all that gentleman's figur^A. When I found the University income stated at $81,000, by ui ""'Dg up Upper Canada College with it, and ignoring the expense of managing our endowment ; and A salary of <£125 a year to the Bursar of Trinity, cuujpared with the staff necossarv to manage our landed property ; — wheu I saw the incidental expenses of the same Institution called $386, whereas they were £886, and its total expenses per year set down as $7,526, whereas the statement published in the Journal ot Education for January ^ives tliem as $10,744, and that expressly excluding $1,380 for Scholarships which are charge- able on the general fund, besides which there are others to the amount of $2820, which are specially provided for ; — ^when, proceeding to the next item, I found Victoria was set down as $6000, whilst Doctor Green has shown that the salaries alone are $7000 — I gave up the attempt as useless. I will, however,'subjoin a comparative statement, which I hope will be fouud more accurate, of the expenditure of the Provincial University and College in Canada, and the analogous establishments in England and Ire- land. In comparing the University of Toronto with that of London, I have ex- eluded in the former the cost of Buildings, and the formation of the Li- brary and Museum, there being nothing analogous to this in the latter ; nor is there any necessity for them, as tne British Museum is free to all, and is, in fact, n-equented by students to an extent embarrassing to the o£S- cers in charge : — London, from Toronto Toronto averaxt EstimateaoflSST. 1800. Since 18&4. Salaries, including servants $6,010 $3,036 $2,067 .' , Examiners 12,469 1,760 1,957 Scholarships, Medals, and prizes. 5,429 6,417 6,067 Incidental 2,807 2,624 2,831 i $26,205 13,827 1,2812 Of these amounts, as I have before stated, $6824 is estimated to be paid by fees, but even deducting them the portion of the expense paid by the State very much exceeds ours. I find by a Parliamentary Return of 1859 that, exclusive of the Build- ings, which were otherwise provided for, the Queen's University and Col- leges in Ireland cost the country for the last year £26,930, or $131,000 which is only a trifle more than the average since 1851. This is about three times the cost of the University and University College, in Canada, for the same period, and with the same exclusions, but they bad not quite double the number of students, viz : — 885 to 196. The different items of the expenditure are not so easily accessible, and cannot be compared separately, as the Scholarships there are included in « the Colleges, and the libraries are provided for, not by a definite appropri- f !:: |::^;| ■I I: . 22 tioQ, but out of an annual grant. Suffice it to b&j that each College receives £8,600 sterling a year, or $41,860, and the University about $1 1,000. The larger items of expenditure, for Examiners and Scholarships, have already been compared, and the only other large item, the cost of the Professorial Staff in each College, is nearly the same as our own. At Cork, in 1859, it is given as 124,820, besides tuition fees ; with us for the same yearit wat|24,480, with no fees except from occasional students. Other fees have been almost abolished, as with us, the Government having increased the former grant by £1,600 sterling, in lieu of them. This sum for salaries, however, includes the Professors of Law and Medicine, amounting together to £700 sterling, or $8,406, so that the amount paid to the professors in Arts is about |3,000 less than with us, but the amount estimated for fees from matriculated students, upwards of $2,000 brings them nearly to the same. It is also to be remarked that the salaries paid are very low ns compared with other similar institutions elsewhere, and that this evil has notoriously resulted from it, that their most eflBcient Professors are con- stantly drafted into other better endowed Institutions. i! (4.) Standard of Education in the University of Toronto, Matriculation. I now come to the fourth charge against the University, insisted upon {)rincipally by Dr. Byerson, viz., that the standard of education has been owered. This charge divides itself into three several beads (1,) that the examination for Matriculation has been reduced ; (2,) that an unprecedented number of options has been introduced ; and (3,) that the standard for a Degree has been lowered. A definite course of study having been laid down in a College, the object of a Matriculation examination is to ascertain that a student presenting himself is far enough advanced to enter upon that course ; if not, either the other students would be impeded in their progress, or he would be neglected. The Matriculation examination must, therefore, be adapted to the course of study in the College, but the course in the College itself must be made to harmonize with the education, which can be obtained out of its doors. If the College commence at too high a standard for the schools, the great bulk of the youth must be debarred from entering it at ail ; or another evil will follow, that not only the examination for matriculants, but, as a neces- sary consequence, the earlier years of the College course itself, will become a mere paper scheme which is not acted upon in practice. The real standard for entering the University, whatever it may be in theory, must be based on the standard of the schools of a country. If that should be low, you must not be content to sink the Colleges to their level ; but you must not place them so far out of reach as to make the entrance into them hope- less. It is a somewhat delicate process to make the adjustment, and in a growing country like this, it will require not unfrequent revision. The Colleges should certain! v not commence above the standard of the best schools, but they should oe greatly in advance of that of the inferior ones ; and as the schools improve, the standard of entrance to the Colleges may i' 23 loh College trsity about icholarships, the cost of ir own. At ^h us for the ents. Other ng increased for salaries, ing together )rofessors in ted for fees n nearly to very low ns his evil has )r8 are con- Vow^. isisted upon m has been I,) that the iprecedented ndard for a e, the object presenting t, either the >e neglected, he course of be made to 5 doors. If 3, the great another evil as a i;eces- will become The real jry, must be )uld be low, t you must them hope- t, and in a ision. The of the best ferior ones ; >lleges may be raised, first by increasing the difficulty of the honor subjects, and then by adding to the qualifications required from all Students, aid before long we may, perhaps, return to a three years' course. Some excellent Grammar Schools we no doubt have, and I have no fear but that they will continue to improve ; but it is notorious that if a much higher matriculation exami- nation were prescribed and acted on^ the young men from many parts of the country would be altogether excluded from the University, unless their parents were able to afford to send them for perparatory training to Upper Canada College, or some other superior Grammar School. In confirmation of these views I would appeal to the valuable evidence of Dr. Cook, as to the impossibility of establishing a Matriculation Examination which is not in ht^rmony with the capabilities of the School, and in his earlier statement he shows the necessity of haying tutors in the Colleges, as well as Professors, for the express purpose of bringing forward those who are deficient in par- ticular branches. Dr. Ryerson asks, why this complaint of the inefficiency of the Grammar Schools was not made before. The answer is that it was made, and no complaint with regard to the old University was more frequent, than that its high standard of entrance practically confined its benefits to a favored class. With the object of remedying this evil, the new University added a year to the course ot study, so as to complete in the University what had been left unfinished in the Schools. But, says Dr. Byerson, " they did not at the same time lower the entrance examination, except by leaving out one book." It is true they did not, but there were not wanting a large number of the Senate, Dr. Byerson amongst the rest, who contended that this was a mistake, and that the object of adding a year to the course was not fully accomplished without a further reduction, and when a fitting opportunity occurred, the change was made to harmonize with the new arrangement. Dr. Byerson says that the Grammar School Act forbids the employment of any person not a graduate, or who has not been examined in all the subjects of our Matriculation, both for pass and for honors ; but does he mean to say that they in fact do pass such an examin- ation, and are competent to teach the subject? I hope the Committee will call for the Grammar School Inspectors, who can tell them what chance the mass of the Grammar School pupils, and even a great many of the Grammar School Masters, would have of passing the common Matriculation Examination only, even as at present established. As for myself, I have now had experience of four matriculation examinations, and can answer for the test being strictly applied, except perhaps in Latin composition, which has hitherto been much neglected in our Grammar Schools ; and from the difficulty that many of the Students, even from schools of some repute, experience in coming up to the mark, I am not surprised at the complaints which were formerly made, that King's College was practically closed to the bulk of the people. It is stated in the Memorial of the Methodist Conference, that the stand- ard of Matriculation is below that of other Universities. I will prooeed to show, confining myself for the present to Greek and Latin, the department complained of, that though it is below that in the old University, — because, as I have explained, that was too high, — it is not below those which we may well take, and by the law are directly instructed to take, as our models. At Oxford and Cambridge, there is, properly speaking, no Matriculation 24 J;i "% rt Examination in the TTniverBity, though there is in some of the Colleges. Qenerally speaking, nothing is required but the certificate of a Oraduate, probably his Schoolmaster, that a student is competent. I am not aware of the precise requirements at any of the Colleges at Cambridge, (at my own there was no examination), but the Oxford Commissioners state what is required by the best Colleges at Oxford ; viz : " some facility in Latin writing) and a fair acquaintance with the gramatical principles of Greek and Latin. To this is now generally added A.rithmetic and a portion of the Elements of Euclid," p. 276. They, however, recommend that a Ma- triculation £lxamination should be*established, somewhat similar to that now called Responsions, which is passed between the 3rd and the 7th terms, and the subjects at that examination are one Greek author and one Latin author, to be selected by the Student from a list given, and translation into Latin prose. The authors we require occur in this list, but they must take more of them, as both the Jugurtha and Catiline of Sallust, and four books of the Anabasis. We, however, require two Latin authors, and it must be remembered that the Commissioners do not contemplate a strict examination ; for, in answer to the objection that the Standard must be mude so low as to exclude almost none, they recommend that good answer- ing in one subject may excuse insuflSciency in another. At Canjbridge, the examination corresponding to the Responsions at Oxford, and the only substitute for a Matriculation examination, consists of one of the gospels in Greek, Paley's Evidence, and one Greek and one Latin author, which were, in the year when I passed the examination, ono book of Homer, and one book of Virgil; and for the present year, the 6th book of Virgil and the last of the Anabasis. In the University of London, which was proposed as our model, they require, together with translation into Latin, one Greek, and one Latin boolc, selected annually from a list given, in which list appear, all the three books we require, and the same quantity of each. Our examination is therefore, if the number of books be taken as a test, higher than theirs. In the Queen's University Ireland, the Matriculation is conducted in the Colleges. I have not been able to find the subjects at Galway, if there be such an examination there ; at Belfast it is two Greek and two Latin Books; at Cork it is the first Book of the Anabasis,^and first Book of Virgil, two of the three Books we require. Dr. Ryerson, whilst quoting the recommendation of the Commissioners, that the Matriculation examination should not be reduced below what it ii, laid upon the table the course at Belfast, which is rather higher than ours! Why did he not also submit that of Cork, which is rather lower ? Both no doubt were right, being guided by the qualifications of the Schools they had to deal with, and both were equally alluded to in the recommendation of the Comissioners. I think that I have thus satisfactorily shewn that we, even with the imperfectly organized Schools of a new country, require from our Students at entrance, as much as has been thought advisable even in England, with all the facilities of acquiring Classical knowledge, which its numerous and long established Schools afford. In Canada, at Trinity College, which is certainly not inferior in its appre- ciation of Classical learning to Victoria or Queen's, the Matriculation 4 # le Colleges, a Graduate, n not aw^are ge, (at my state what ty in Latin 8 of Greek a portion of that a Ma- ar to that 1th terms, one Latin translation '< they must t, and four lors, and it ate a strict rd must be )od answer* jonsions at consists of k and one lation, one sar, the 6th aodel, they jatin boolc, hree books therefore, !ted in the ' there be tin Books; •gil, two of nissioners, what it if, than ourst sr ? Both lools they nendation with the Students and, with erous and its appre- iculation 25 examination is substantially the same as our own, but rather lower, only requiring two books to our three. As to the Colleges in the United States, I am unacquainted with the measure of strictness with which their exami- nation is applied ; but this I will say without any fear of contradiction, that if, as the italics of the pamphlet of the Methodist Conference imply, they expect a lad upon leaving School to have read the whole of Virgil, and the whole of Caesar, his time would have been much better employed in learning something of other authors. To any one acquainted with the subject it bears upon the face of it the stamp of a paper programme, as much as does the whole of Livy and the whole of Herodotus, as a part of the first year's course at Victoria College. Ojptions permitted in the University. Upon the subject of the options permitted in the University of Toronto Dr. Ryerson is very decided. His argument is this, in the main features of which he is supported by Dr. Cook — that a University course is not intended to be adapted to the tastes and capacities of the various students, but "to discipline the powers of the mind by a common course of appli- cation and exercises, sanctioned by the experience of ages, and for whch Utopian experimenters have found no substitute, any more than they have found a' substitute for ordinary food and exercise requisite for physical development and discipline " — the two subjects for which no substitute can be found being Greek and Latin and Mathematics. Now, I am far from undervaluing these two studies, which, when I was at College, were the only recognized subjects of an Academical course — the former more par- ticularly, as a means of niental discipline, and the latter far more for its practical utility. But there have not been wanting men of the highest position in the intellectual world, who have argued that they were, not merely, not the only, but not even the best studies, for forming the mind ; whilst the practical utility of many new subjects has been gradually forcing them into the established studies of t)ie Universities. There has been also a growing conviction, that from tlie narrow limits of the studies of our Public Schools and Universities, they were not fitting men for the actual business of life. The whole tendency of educational reform, for the last thirty years, has been in this direction, and if the transactions of this Com- mittee ever find their way into the hands of persons interested in such subjects at home, it will raise considerable surprise in their minds, that the exploded systems of Europe are finding refuge in the new world, and that a new dynasty of Latin and Greek is sought to be raised up in the Univer- sities of Canada. Old prejudices are not easily overcome, especially in Universities, which are the most conservative of bodies, and the change has been gradual, but it has been steady ; and as new subjects have been introduced, options as a necessity, have followed in their footsteps. Where Classics and Mathe- matics, as at Cambridge, or Classics and Mental Sciences as at Oxford, formed the staple of the University course, no great amount of individual choice could be left to the students; but as the various branches of Natural !•'*' 26 Philosophy increased in intricacy and importance ; as Chemistry, Geology and Political Economy assumed the proportion of Sciences, and with Natural History and Modern Languages, claimed a position as recognized subjects of study, it became erident that no student could give equal atten- tion to all, and that some latitude of selection must be allowed, Atfirst, as was natural, the old subjects retained their position and the new ones alone were made optional. But this, also, is passing away, and the exclusive supremacy of Latin and Greek, through their intrinsic value can never be forgotten, is almost at an end. I will not pursue the argument as to whether this has been wise or not; I believe the Committee would prefer to learn from me what is the actual practice of the English Universities, and what are the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners for their further reform. The University of London, naturally presents itself first to our notice, not only as the model proposed to us, but also as being untramelled in its action by time honoured statutes and prejudices; I must, however, notice a difference which exists in their method of conferring Degrees, which affects this question of the course of study. We prescribe a four years course ; that is, the examination for the degrees of B. A., in the ordinary way of proceed- ing to it, is the fourth examination after that for Matriculation, and the degree of M. A., as in the older English Universities, follows as a matter of course without examination. In London, they have a two years course, or the degree of B. A., is given on the second examination after Matricu- lation, and that of M. A., follows the next year on a third examination. In comparing the two courses, we must therefore remember, that, with them, the examination for M. A., is the third or final one; with us the fourth, or final one, is that for B. A. Now, in the University of London, the first examination after Matricula* tion is extremely similar to ours, excepting that there is no Greek at all, and, as with us, no options are allowed. The second examination is rather above us, especially in Mathematics, and no options are allowed, neither are they with us, except to the few who have been first class honor men, in either Classics or Mathematics, or in both Natural Sciences and Modern Languages. To our third examination, they have nothing corresponding, and at their final examination they allow any one of these three branches to be taken, viz : Classics, Mathematics, or Mental and Moral Sciences : a greater license than we allow to any but first class honor :'-,ien. But this is not all, for to meet the growing necessity of options, they have established a new degree, unknown before in English Universities, though existing in the University of Paris, viz. : that of Bachelor and Doctor of Science. A student offering himself for this course, may, after matriculation^ ».«., one year, before we permit any options at all, and two years before we permit them to mere pass men, drop Classics and Modern Languages altogether. At the second examination, he may drop pure Mathematics altogether, and at the final examination, that for Doctor of Science, he need only take one of no less than 16 options. The extent to which the different branches of Science are subdivided in this scheme, may be conceived from the fact, that organic and inorganic Chemistry are distinct branches, and so are Geology and Paloeontology. Nay, the several branches are again subdivided into principal and subsidiary subjects, and he is to have a thorough knowledge tl( nc foJ al is I idt pc ai 97 y, Geology Rnd with recognized >qual atten- At first, as ones alone 9 exclasive n never be dse or not; the actual idations of iversity of Qly as the Q by time difference ffects this 36 ; that is, •f proceed- a, and the k matter of ars course, r Matricu- ation. In nth them, fourth, or Matricula* iek at all, 1 is rather either are r men, in 1 Modern spending, branches lences: a (ut this is jtablished isting in ence. A i.e.y one e permit together. her, and take one nches of act, that Geology ied into of the one, but need only show a general acquaintance with the other. Thus, a candidate selecting Mathematics as his branch, may take pure Mathematics as the principal subject, with only a general knowledge of ap- plied Mathematics, or vice versa. — The Committee, therefore, can judge for themselves, how far Dr. Ryerson is borne out in his assertions, that " it is not the object of Collegiate education to minister to individual tastes," that "in English Uu'versities Natural Sciences are not admitted as a substitute for Mathematics," that "in no case are both Classics and Mathematics, allowed to be abandoned during any part of the course," and that " there is not a University or College in Great Britain, that would not scout the idea of conferring a degree on such terms." At the Queen's University, Ireland, the system of options is also permitted, though differing in arrangement from ours. At the first ex- amination after matriculation, as with us there are no options. At the second (one year before wa permit any, except to first class honor men) there is an option for all students between Classics and Mathematics. At the end of the third year, (and herein they differ principally from us,) they take over again some branches of all departments, and it is to be observed that this is exactly the examination which the Commissioners propose to alter. At the fourth or uaal examination, which with them also is that for M. A., four options are allowed. Classics with one Modern Language, Mathematics and Natural Philosophy, English with Logic and Metaphysics, or with Jurisprudence, and Political Economy, and the Natural Sciences — any one of the four being sufficient for obtaining the degree. In his supplementary evidence, Dr. Ryerson has appealed to the report of the Commissioners on the Queen's University and Colleges, and considering the length to which his extracts from other writers extended, it is singular he should only have quoted from the Commissioners, their statement of the existing examination for 6. A., and not the proposals which have been made to amend it. I will content myself with referring to the I9th page, the perusal of which will satisfy any member of the Committee, that they are not opposed to the system of options, and never dreamt of the exclusive studies recommended by Dr. Ryerson and Dr. Cook. They shew that the object of the present course contemplates "a wide and extensive general education" and that devotion to special subjects is encouraged by the M. A. Examination, and by the prizes and honors. They say that all the Pro- fessors are in favour of a general course, but think the present work too much, and what they mean by a general course is shewn by their different schemes as given in the Appendix, all of which, except one, greatly extend the system of options. They object to all these schemes as making too radical a change, and then give the remedy which meets most with their approbation, which is a step beyond what we go in the University of Toronto : viz., that there shall be an examination at the end of the second year, on the subjects of the course up to that time, which shall be final, as far as these subjects are concerned, and that at the B. A. examination, they need take only one of the three groups of the present B. A. examination, given in Dr. Ryerson's evidence, excluding Latin and Greek, Mathemati'is and Modern Languages, which have been finally disposed of at the end of the second year. At Cambridge, the options until quite lately were permitted to honor 28 n!'. i .1 ,,> hi '" in«n alone, that is, all must pass the Previous Examination, the only sub- stitute for, and certainlj not more difficult than our Examinations required from all students. The Candidates for Mathematical Honors, might then branch off, being only required to take the theological subjects of the gen- eral Degree examination. The candidates for Classical honors used to be more limited, as they could not present themselves unless they had obtained a certain standing in the Mathematical Tripos. This arrangement, how- ever, was modified some years ago, and the candidates for classical honors were only required to have taken a fair standing at the general Examina- tion. Two new Triposes were also established on the same terms : viz., Moral Sciences, andj Natural Sciences, a further proof of Dr. Ryerson'a accuracy in stating that no British University admits of an o])tion between Mathematics and the Natural Sciences. Whether the fifth Tripos for Modern Languages, has been actually established or not, I am not quite certain. If it has not it most certainly will be. Upon this subject, the Commissioners make the following observations. " Another addition, still more obviously suggested by considera.ions of utility is the study of Modern Languages. A system of liberal education cannot be regarded otherwise, than as defective, if it does not afford facilities and inducements for acquir- ing a knowledge of the treasures of German, French and Italian literature." "We confidently indulge the hope that it will, ere long, be recognized by the University as worthy of being fostered by honors and rewards." I am aware that the objection may be raised that these options were only for the honor men, and that they, except the Mathematicians, must also pass the Degree examination. But what is the Degree examination itself? It is little more than a repetition of the previous examination. One Greek and one Latin book, part of the Acts, or an Epistle, instead of a Gospel, in the Greek Testament, Algebra, the rest of Euclid, and the Elementary Principles of Mechanics and Hydrostatics, with Paley, and some Church History, cer- tainly not more than we expect from all our students at some part of their course. I am sure the Committee will excuse me if I quote from the Report of the Commissioners, the recommendations of which were in a great measure adopted last year, xifter speaking o^ the Previous Examination, they add, " After the completion of five more terms, those Candidates for the degree of Bachelor of Arts, who do not offer themselves for mathemati- cal honors, are again subjected to an examination, differing but little in its general character from that which they passed in the middle of their term. Mathematics and Greek and Latin still form a considerable part of it. But these are subjects, io which time had long shewn that most of this class of students did not possess the desire or the aptitude to excel. If their taste and talents had inclined that way, the majority of them would no doubt have been found in the career of competition for mathematical and classical honors. For five weary terms they have been compelled to continue a course of reading, which, whatever attractions, whatever benefits it may have for others, is to them irksome, and, need we hesitate to say, little better than unprofitable." " What we suggest then is that the examination of students in Arts, at the end of the fifth term, should take place as at present, and in the same subjects, with the addition of such further parts of Euclid and Algebra as are now introduced at the final exaraination for those who are not candidates for mathematical honors. After the general ^ 29 ;lie only sub* ions required might then 8 of the gen- rs used to be had obtained ement, how- isical honors al Examina- terms : viz., r. Ryerson's tion between Tripos for am not quite subject, the iddition, still y of Modern id otherwise, :s for acquir- 1 literature." (Cognized by irds." I am ire only for 1st also pass itself? It is e Greek and ospel, in the 7 Principles History, cer- part of their 1 the Report in a great Ixamination, r.didates for mathemati- little in its their term, of it. But this class of f their taste I no doubt nd classical continue a jfits it may ) say, little xamination place as at rther parts lination for be general ^ body of students have passed this examination oallectively, they might then, in our opinion, be allowed, for the following four terms to select freely for themselves, with the sanction of their college tutor, such lines of recog- nized academical study as were best suited to their aptitudes and tastes and professional destinations. Some would aspire to honors in the several TriposeSy others would prepare themselves for the first degree in Law or Physic The rest, who sought or obtained no honors, would be finally subjected to some process of examination, in order to make it evident that they had attended such a range of lectures in their last four terms, and acquired such a proficiency as to qualify them for a first degree in arts." They then go on to shew how condidates for honors in the four existing TriposeSy and others which might be added, as Modern Languages and Civil Engineering, would obtain their degree, and they proceed — "Corres- ponding to the examination for honors in each several IVipos^ there would be a collateral examination at the same time and in the same subjects for those students who had adopted that particular line of study, though not seeking the distinction of an academical honor in it. As many as passed this collateral examination satisfactorily should also thereupon be entitled, in point of academical proficiency, to the degree of Bachelor of Arts," which they would accord on the same terms as those whose final examination was in Theology. " The change itself of the system, which we have pro- posed, would, in our opinion, be attended with great advantages. There would still be, as now, an ardent competition and high standard of attain- ment preserved both in the mathematical and classical Triposes. Eminent distinction gained in them would still continue to be the prelude to a Fel- lowship in a college. At the same time, the Moral and Natural Science Tripotes would rise into increased importance, in proportion as the Colleges began to recognize superior merit in those departments as forming also a recommendation to a Fellowship. But the positive advantage would pro- bably be more marked in the case of that numerous class of students who are contented with an ordinary Degree, not feeling themselves fitted to embark in the competition for academical honors. After passing the Pre- vious examination they might turn their four remaining terms to a really profitable account, by preparing themselves for their future professions; or, at least, they might continue to find in academical pursuits that degree of interest and improvement which arises from variety and choice of study." (p. 27.) This is the scheme of academical study recommended by men of such'^Euiopean reputation as the Bishop of Chester, Peacock, Herschel, Romilly, and Sedgwick, and it goes even further in admitting the princi- pie of options than the Senate of the University have ventured to follow. The Committee can have an opportunity of comparing it with what Dr. Ryerson in his evidence has stated to be the nature of their recommen- dations. At Oxford they have not as yet proceeded so far in introducing a principle which must ultimately prevail, but they have already advanced to a considerable extent in the same direction. The subjoined extract from the Commiss:' oners' report will shew both what the present practice is and what it is recommended that it should become. "The Senate has admitted the necessity of afibiUing some liberty of choice to the students with regard to the subjects which he is to pursue during the latter part of his course. We l-v^: lir t ' &: 'iff 1 . 80 ar6 of opinion that this liberty should be extended. All studentu will henceforward (from 1850) be permitted to choose at pleasure the special studies of Law and History, of Mathematical Science, or of Natural Science; but previously to his examination in any of these branches, eacli candidate must still present himself in the school of Literce Humanioreay to be there examined in classics for the third time, as well as in philosophy and history. No doubt this restriction was maintained in consequence of an opinion which has long prevailed at Oxford with regard to the nature of a liberal education," (and which, it would appear, is to be revived in Canada.) " It has been held to be the sole business of a University to train the powers of the mind, not to give much positive or any professional knowledge ; and the study of classical books is regarded as the best means of refining and invigorating the mind. The education given has hitherto been the same for all, whether clergymen or barristers, medical men or private gentlemen. It has been limited to such subjects as were presumed to be common to all these kinds of life ; and no one has left Oxford, under the system hitherto pursued, much more fitted for one profession than for another." (p. 281.) ********* *'Now the Statute of 1850 was an effort in the right direction ; but its present regulations, which still attain the compulsory study of the Literce Humanories to the end of the course, will scarcely remedv the evil." (p. 282.) * * * * * ' * * '* The obvious mode of amending this scheme would be to enact that all students, after giving satisfactory evidence of classical knowledge at the in- termediate examination, (the Jirst in the University) should be relieved from the necessity of continuing the studies of the grammar school, and should be at liberty for the latter period of their career to devote them- selves to pursuits preparatory to their future professions. To this end it seems to us that the University might with the best results institute a division of studies, with corresponding examination schools, such as would better accord with the freedom of choice which should, as we think, be left to the student, after the intermediate examination, to be passed by all alike." (p. 287.) The Commissioners then proceed to explain the four schools, with minor subdivisions, making in all nine branches, any of which might be chosen by the student after the middle of his second year as all that would be requisite to entitle him to a degree, viz : I. Theology ; 11. Divided into two, viz: (1) Mental Philosophy; (2) Philology, in which the student may be examined in Greek and Latin, or the Oriental and European Languages, or in Comparative Philology; III. Jurisprudence and History, including Political Economy; IV. Divided into two: (1) Pure and applied Mathematics ; (2) Physical Science. ■i la General Standard of Education, In rebutting thus at length the charge that our options have lowered the standard of our degree to an extent unprecedented in any other University, I have incidentally compared our requirements with others, and have shown, that in no sen«e is the study for our Degree below that required in our best models. I might,' therefore, have passed over altogether the general i uddnts will the special ral Science; 1 candidate bo be there ind history, an opinion »f a liberal ada.) "It I powers of ledge; and ifining and the same gentlemen, non to all Q hitherto (p. 281.) • ♦ n ; but its the Literal the evil." * « ct that all at the in- >e relieved hool, and ^ote them- his end it institute a as would ik, be left led by all the four of which ear as all >logy; II. in which sntal and prudence wo: (1) 31 accusation of the inferiority of the standard of education in the University of Toronto, had not Dr. Ryerson otfered a proof of it, from the alleged inferiority of our students as Grammar School Teachers. Now, thii prepar- ation of young men for teaching Qaammar Schools, is not the only, not even the highest object of a University ; and until means have been pro- vided to increase the remuneration offered, it is hopeless to expect that the best men will select such a miserably paid profession. Other qualities also are required in a Teacher than mere learning, as Dr. Ryerson must be well aware, having before him the example of a distinguished graduate of Ox- ford, who lately failed to maintain even a moderately successful school in Toronto — and of two men, graduates of British Universities, selected by himself for hi.« Normal and Model Grammar Schools, who, upon trial, proved inefficient. I might also say, that even if the imputation were true. It would reflect little discredit upon our present course of study, which has only been established five years. The first men who entered with our present course, and have pursued it throughout, only graduated in June last ; and to test the present University by the men it has hitherto pro- duced, would be much like looking for fruit the year after planting an orchard. But I also have looked over the returns of the Grammar School Inspectors, whose own evidence the Committee can call for, and I say unhesitatingly, that their returns do not bear out Dr. Ryerson's statement, of any inferiority in our Students as compared with those of other Colleges. That such a charge against the kind of instruction given in University College should come from Dr. Ryerson, whose only Canadian Master in his Model Grammar School has been selected irom our graduates, does, I confess surprise me ; especially when I remember a formal proposition made by him not very long since, for the foundation of certain Scholarships in connection with University College, for the express purpose of educating Grammar School Masters. This proposition, which will be found recorded in our Minutes, was rejected by the Senate, because we thought we had already a sufficient number of Scholarships provided, without establishing 10 more ; because we thought £30 a year a sufficient stipend, whereas he proposed £50 a year for his ; because ours are awarded for proficiency in the honor as well as the pass subjects, and his candidates were to be ex- amined in the mere common pass subjects of the first year only ; and because ours are open to the whole Province, whilst no one was to be allowed to compete for his, except those who came with a recommendation from the Council of Public Instruction. I think the Committee will agree with me, that this proposition is an instructive comment, not only upon the alleged incompetency of University College for preparing Grammar School Teachers, but also upon the extravagance and exclusiveness with which we are charged, and upon the desire which Dr. Ryerson expresses to maintain a high standard of education. n ered the 'versity, e shown, in our general (6) General policy of a Provincial Utiiversity. Having now disposed of the several heads under which the Petitioners have brought charges against the management of the University, it remains only for me to speak to the general question of the policy of denomination- as ml ■' i' Ui m :■■; I al or non-denominational Colleges, supported by the State, and of establish- ing one College, which shall be thoroughly and efficiently organized, or dividing the endowment amongst several. As to the first question, I do not desire to enter into the general argu- ment. The Committee, I conceive, wish to obtain from me facts and not opinions, which they have no doubt long since formed for themselves, upon a subject which, for the last twenty years, has been so prominently before the country. I would merelv remark that, whether the prevailing opinion of Upper Canada, that no aid from the State should be given towards education exclusively under the control of any particular religious denom- ination, be right or wrong, we should at least be consistent in our applica- tion of the principle which guides us. Dr. Cook is perfectly consistent in the views which ne advocates. He holds that all education should be in the hands of persons, for whose general character some particular religious community stands sponsor, and quotes with approbation the opinion of Baron Alderson, that it is impossible to give secular instruction in common, and that it is essential even for a teacher of arithmetic to hold orthodox views upon the docrine of the Trinity. If such be the opinion of the majority of the people of Upper Canada, then it follows as a matter of course, that the endowment should be divided amongst the denominational Colleges, and University College should be abolished. But if an opposite opinion prevails, as it would appear to do from the constitution of our Common and Grammar Schools, I can see no argument against Separate Schools, which does not equally apply to separate Colleges. *' If," says Dr. Ryerson, in his evidence, " aid is provided in support of a College for those who prefer a College without any religious character or influence, it is unjust and preposterous to deny aid to Colleges for those who demand colleges invested with a religious character and influences. And again, " If an institution teaches the subject of a collegiate education in connection with no religion, it is to be endowed ; but if it teaches the same subject in connection with any religious persuasion, it is to be prescribed. Thus the religious character of a college is a disqualification for public aid ! Can anything be more monstrous ?" Read Schools for Colleges^ and you have the argument for Separate Schools forcibly p ut. Again, in his report of 1856, Dr. Ryerson says, " It is only therefore, for very grave causes that the State can be justified in allowing any portion of the population to be isolated from a system of public instruction. But where this is claimed, with the avowed view to the interests of a religious persuasion, the answer is, ' The State has nothing to do with the peculiar interests of sects, but has everything to do with the school education of its youth.' The State equally tolerates and protects the former, but it largely provides for the latter. As, therefore, a system of Public Schools is based upon public interests, members of no sect or religious persuasion can claim on con- stitutional or public grounds, that any of such schools should be made sec- tarian, or that public funds should be expended for the support of sectarian schools at all, much less that such schools should be placed on the same footing as Public Schools. The sole object of public schools is secular education ; the leading object of sectarian schools is sectarian interests — with which the State does not interfere where there is no semblance of union 33 ofestablish- ganized, or jneral argu- icts and not jolves, upon ently before ing opinion ftn towards :>us denom- Dur applica- sonsistent in lould bo in ar religious > opinion of in common, Id orthodox lion of the I matter of oniinational an opposite ition of our st Separate " If," says College for nfluence, it ho demand I again, " If connection e subject in Thus the fiid ! Can d you have s report of causes that ation to be is claimed, the answer )f sects, but The State rles for the pon public m on con* s made sec- of sectarian •n the same is secular interests — ce of unioil between Church and State." Hero, if you read OolUges for Schools^ the contrary arguinout is still more forcibly sustained. But, putting the religious argument aside altogether, and supposing a College to bo as free from denominational bias as Victoria is claimed to be, when it is no longer to the liberality of the Methodist persuasion, but to the sympathies of the pnblic at large that the appeal is made ; is it for the interest of the country that the endowment should bo scattered in small sums over tho country in support of a number of local institutions ? I en- tirely concur in the general principle of the London University, that students, whereve"" educated, should jjave the same facilities for obtaining scholastic honors, — the principle upon which our University was consti- tuted, and which has been fully acted on by the Senate ;but I also believe that it was a wise policy to found olc College, free to all, having no ad- vantfige.* over any others, except what its greater educational capabilities might naturfilly afford it. I should be sorry to see the smaller Colleges closed, be they denominational or otherwise, and I should wish to see them, and I do not yet despair of seeing them sending their fair quota to tho examinations of the Provincial University, and sharing in the Scholar- shij)s and honors which it has provided. But at least one College should l,e sustained by the State, in which every branch of learning and science, which forms a recognized part of a liberal education, can be taught efficiently under the best instructors. It cannot be expected that the minor Colleges would keep up a teaching staff embracing all the numerous ramifications of modern science, and it is hardly to be desired that they should, for the number of Professors would thus become unnecessarily multiplied, — if thoroughly efficient, at a cost altogether disproportioned to the number of students, or what is far more probable, as a mere repetition in unnecessary profusion of an imperfect and incompetent model. But there is nothing to hinder them from having competent men in some of the most essential departments ; and as the preferences for special studies of the ruling denomi- nation, or the tastes of each locality dictated, or from the lucky acquisition of some eminently successful teacher, each College would gradually acquire, as has been the case in England, a reputation for success in particular de- partments. The system of options already adopted, and which must here- after ever form the basis of a University scheme, would give their students tho fullest opportunity of carrying off their share of honors and emolu- ments ; and if the preference of the petitioners for one or two time-hallowed studies, over the more modern extended course be correct, the superiority of their scheme of instruction wonld be manifested. But the Provincial College should make provision for everything that is desirable to include in a University course. To leave the selection of studies to the individual Colleges, would be to run the risk of leaving some important subject un- represented, and would drive our youth to go elsewhere to gain the desired knowledge ; to prescribe a uniform course for all,"would be as I have said, to multiply teachers unnecessarily, to force upon Victoria, History and English Literature, which Dr. Ryerson thinks are already sufficiently taught in the Grammar Schools, and modern Languages upon Quean's, whose Principal thinks them not only an unnecessary, but a positively in- jurious addition to Academical studies. The present University Act pro- vides everything that is requisite for such an organization, which I think >',! 84 the beat adapted to the state of the country, and any modificationi; in the Constitution of the Senate, or in other minor particulars, could easily be introduced oven without additional lejfislation. Mv own idea of the best constitution fer that body would be, that a certain nxed number should be appointed by the Crown, that each College which sent up a certain number of Students for examinations should be entitled to elect one member, and after a certain number of Students two members, and that the Graduates yearly assembled in convocation, should elect certain other members — it being provided that if any affiliated College surrendered its charter, or as long as it held its charter in abeyance, all the graduates of such College should rank as graduates of the Provincial University. I should also think it advisable that all members of the Senate, whether elected or appointed, should hold their seats only for a fixed term of years but should be re-eligible. As to the endowment, having shown the cost of similar institutions else- where, I do not belipve that it will for some years to come much exceed what is requisite to keep up the Provincial College in full efficiency, and the University with its necessary expenditure, in maintaining a Provincial Library and Museum, competent examiners and a liberal allowance for Scholarships. If any considerable surplus should arise, — and I agree with the petitioners that all extravagance should be discouraged and prevented, for which the Visitor has ample powers, — such surplus might most profit- ably in my opinion be devoted, under such regulations as Parliament might make in accordance with the 54th clause, to an object in which all the Colleges have an equal interest, and not only the Colleges but the whole country, viz : the improvement of our Grammar Schools. This is at pre- sent the weakest point in our whole educational system. We have ad- mirable Common Schools, and a liberal appropriation for the Normal and its accompanying Model Schools; vq have a staft" of Professors connected with the Provincial College, who would reflect credit upon any similar body even in England, and the denominational Colleges have, I believe, under considerable difficulties, accomplished their work well. But in the higher schools we are unfortunately deficient, not from the lack of men to under- take them, so much as from the want of funds from which to provide a sti- pend liberal enough to attract thoroughly qualified teachers. Perhaps the best way of doing this would be to found certain annual allowances which should be awarded on examination, snd should be tenable only by persons actually engaged in teaching Grammar Schools, or employed as tutors or professors in incorporated Colleges not otherwise endowed by the State. — As the word fellowship seems appropriated to a connection with a particu- lar College, such recipients of stipends from the University funds might be called " associates" or some equivalent term, and the emoluments might be held for a limited term of years. ' .' . JDr. Cook's Unimreity Scheme Mcamined. The scheme propounded by Dr. Cook would, no doubt, have been im- proved in its details, had he had an opportunity of maturely considering them, and I will not therefore judge it by its minor arrangements. But it 35 ire, and that appeare to me, apart from ^ denomiat^tional aspect, to be based upon thre« unsound principles. 1. It eittablishos «« uniform, and therefore, necessarily limited, course of study for all, in direct opposition to the practice of the best Universities, and the strong recommendation of both the Oxford and Cambridge Commissioners, whoso guiding principle is liberty to individual choice. This it does, not only in accordance with Dr. Cook's individual opinions as to what are the most important branches of study, but as a necessary consequence of the equal subclivision of Government aid ; for it is impossible that several small bodies can be so organized as to atlord much opportunity of selection to the students. This can only be accomplished by one large institution, or by several small ones united under one superin- tending power, but each selecting its own favorite branches, or as I re- commend, by both united. This variety in the means of study is not in- consistent with uniformity in the qualifications required by the general superintending body. The University must still regulate the choice of departments which it would permit, the relative values which it would assign to each, and the uniform standard of proficiency in each, which it required as a qualification for its degree or its honors. A high honi r at Cambridge has a definite and well appreciated value, though one man obtained it in mathematics alone, and another by classics ; an.) the London M. A. is equally valuable, whether obtained on an examination in Classics, Mathematics, or Mental and Moral Sciences. 2. It is based upon the extremest views of decentralization. Dr. Cook admits the greater stimulus to intellectual activity in a numerously attended institution, but thinks it counterbalanced by a greater chance of moral corruption. I am b}* no means sure that a youth, who has soon to go out into the world without any controul, is not the better for a preparatory training amongst those of his own age, with such supervision as can always be exercised in a College ; and that a higher tone of morality may not be cultivated under the influence of the public opinion of a large body, than by mixing only with a limited society. I am very sure that if he has mixed freely with men of various habits of thought, and various religious denominations, if he has met upon equal terms with his superiors and his inferiors, both in intellectual power and worldly position, if he has seen bright examples to emulate as well as evil ones to avoid, he will be a better member of society, and freer from those petty prejudices which always grow up in a narrow circle, and not the least so in a strictly denominational College. But as a question of education, in the sense of acquiring know- ledge, there can be doubt at all. One young man of really superior attain- ments exercises an exciting influence, both upon his fellow students and his teachers, which you can rarely hope to find in a small body. Emulation is the great spur, especially amongst the young, and the larger the body of competitors the greater is the emulation excited. The reason is plain. The best man in twenty, having no one further to contend with is apt to be con- tent with, and overestimate his position ; but bring him into competition with five more men similarly situated, each urges the other on, and you obtain five men in the hundred, each superior to what he would have been in the narrower sphere. The mere encounter of such men at an annual examination is not sufficient, it is the daily contest in the lecture room which keeps up an animation in their studies. But it is not only from 36 ' r. " w. if: I. il ' I 'h '!; :,: studyisg the common College course, not even with the emulation of the common lecture room, that the great benefit of a Unirereity education is derived. In the free intercourse of the College every student finds some one well informed upon a subject of wliich he is comparativel} ignorant, and gets indications which help and direct him in his private studies, He learns to appreciate talent, and to have a taste and respect for learning, even when he does not himself excel. He comes out from College a man of enlarged and cultivated mind, which no number of books of Livy, or propositions of Euclid would ever have made him. These advantages can be but partially obtained in a smriU community, and though small Colleges will doubtless continue to exist for local and denominational reasons, and perhaps not without some special advantages, I caimot think it a commend- able scheme, which would systematically break up the youth, who seek a College education, into numerous small societies. (3.) But if this decentralizing system is bad in itself, even if all were amply endowed ; to divide a limited sum so that no College would be efficiently supported, must be fatal to the superior education of the country. It is idle to say that because Victoria and Queen's are the only bodies petitioning, they alone, with the addition perhaps of Trinity, would claim a share. When the principle was once established, Knox's College and other Institutions, now existing only as Theological Schools, would estab- lish secular chairs and assert their right to a free distribution. Nor would the demand be confined to Colleges connected with a particular religious persuasion. Local interests would come into play, and every large town would claim to have its College. Already there are in Upper Canada 12 Institutions of this kind in existence, or with charters of incorporation, and this year two new ones have sent in memorials to obtain a share with Kingston and Cobourg of the Government allowance. Dr. Cook thinks that he has provided a remedy to prevent them from becoming too numer- ous, but even the existing ones he can only support by cutting off from the teachir* staff several departments, which, though thought unnecessary or even injurious at Queen's, are fostered and encouraged by the British Commissioners. Dr. Ryerson, however, contemplates with satisfaction the possible establishment of 10 Faculties in competing Colleges, each as he proposes receiving £1,500. What sort of a teaching staff they could afford to maintain, is evident from the complaints of Queen's and Victoria that their present means are inadequate. For it must be remembered that if the Government aid is proposed to be increased, the means supplied by volun- tary contributions would be diminished ; not only because it is the tendency of all Government assistance to paralyze individual liberality, but also because this source of income would be exhausted. The number of young men who seek, or can spare time for, a College career is limited in all countries, and a multiplication of Colleges would not bring an equal in- crease of students; the receipts from fees would therefore be reduced. Denominational piety and individual liberality have also their bounds, and the majority of men who would contribute to such purposes have already done what they can afford. What aid could be expected from Muni- cipalities to Institutions, from which the bulk of the people would derive no immediate advantage, may be judged from the starving condition of our Grammar Schools. Other sources of income to supplement the Govern- as C fe d St B1 tion of the ducation is finds some )' ignorant, udies. He »r learning, lege a man ot Livy, or mtages can ill Colleges jasons, and conimend- who seek a if all were would be le country, oly bodies ould claim allege and )uld eetab- Nor would ' religious arge town /anada 12 ition, and hare with ok thinks DO numer- from the essary or le British iction the ich as he uld afford ;oria that hat if the )y volun- tendency but also of young ted in all equal in- reduced, nds, and 3 already n Muni- d derive )n of our Govern- ment Grant being dried up, we should have ten or fifteen miserable attempts at a College, and should have destroyed as noblo an endowment as any young country ever possessed. Nor can I gee any safeguard in Dr. Cook's tests of the eflSciency of the Colleges. A certain number of Pro- fessors is to be required. Professors will not be wanting if £1,500 is to be divided amongst tUem; but as to the efficiency of the Professors, it may be as difficult to determine that by legislation, as it has been found in the case of Grammar Schoolmasters. Then the Senate is to determine the standard of education. Surely Dr. Cook must have forgotten that the Senate, which, in its legislative capacity, is to fix the standard, and in its examining capacity is to ascertain whether that standard has been reached, is to be composed mainly of those Professors, or persons elected by them. The Professors may not, as has been unjustly alleged of the present Senate, fix the amount of their own salaries, but practically they will determine whether they are to have any salaries at all. You cannot by law fix a standard of education. It may sound paradoxical, but it is nevertheless true, that practically it is the students who fix it. If they are badly pre- pared the standard is low, for you cannot find Examiners who will reject the majority of the students. The only way to obtain a high standard is to provide such teachers as can bring their students up to it, and this can only be done by employing a sufficient number to enable them to do \,he work effectually, and by giving them such a remuneration as will insure the obtaining of able men. Quebec, April 19, 1860. JOHN LANGTON. ; . t "I ! ' 38 li ni V-;J!l: h "^.-ii lit ■■ K/} I. Comparative Statement of the requirements of the Prinicpal British and Canadian Universities and Medical Schools for a degree or License in Medicine, submitted by John Lang- TOJT, 'Vice Chancellor of the University of Toronto, April 23rd, in reply to question 457 — " Have you any observations to offer with reference to the School of Medicine in the University?" I put in a statement in a tabular form, of tne requirements of different Schools of Medicine, both in the Old Country and in Canada. Those in the Old Country are extracted from the Edinburgh Medical Journal of October, 1857 — those of the Canadian Schools from their own prospect- uses. There will be observed a remarkable difference between the two, namely, that the British Schools require a less attendance upon lectures, and a larger attendance upon the Hospitals, owing, in all probability, to the greater abundance of hospitals there than in Canada. As compared with each other, the requirements of the Canadian Schools of Medicine are very similar. lit ' 39 Prinicpal chools for >HN Lang- to, April nervations ne in the of different Those in Journal of n prospect- n the two, >n lectures, )ility,tothe pared with are very c3 to . . " «; o o, III S 'O *o ' " .2 o O C C9 " 3." .-2 is* O t.>".3 — Its! £ s >• 5"«? o* « t. a >-5 rt o c5 ca •C -o "S -S o o 40 W I would, at the same time, state what the work of Matriculation examina- tions in the Canadian Institutions is, — Matriculation Examination, Victoria. — Satisfactory evidence of classical and general attainments. In Classics — London Pharraacopea, Gregory's Conspectus, or Sallust or any other Latin Book. " " McGill's. — Proof of competent classical at- tainments either by examination or otherwise. " Queen's. — Proof of classical attainments. " Toronto. — Sallust Catilina. Elements of Chemistry and Na- tural History. Arithemetic and Algebra. English Grammar and Composi- tion. Outlines of English History. Outlines of ancient and Modern Geography. (Greek and French for honors only.) With regard to the Matriculation in Medicine, it stands upon an entirely different footing from Matriculation in Arts. The object of a Matriculation examination in Arts is to shew that tha student is sufficiently far advanced to go on with his studies in the prescribed course. The object of a Matric- ulation examination in Medicine is to ascertain whether he has finished his studies in those departments in which he will never be examined again. I am aware that any examination for Matriculation will be very partially acted upon, and it ia impossible at any one examination, to decide whether a man is a sufficiently well educated man to fit him for the Profession of Medicine. I entirely agree with Dr. Cook, that it would be a great deal better, if he were required, before proceeding with Medicine, to be either a graduate in Arts, or to have taken a certain number of definite courses in Arts. But no one University can introduce this system when it is not the custom in other Universities; it can only be done by the combined action of them all, and I hope it may yet be done. IL Final Statement by Mr. Langtou, made before the 26th April. I can acquit myself of having given rise to any of the personalities which have unfortunately been introduced into the present investigation. The petitioners have brought forward certain arguments against the present constitution and management of the University, which 1 have met, with what success it is for the committee to judge. They have also adduced certain statements of fact and figures, to the accuracy of which I have de- murred, but I have stated my objections as temperately as is consistent with my distinct denial of their truth. No attempt has been made to im- pugn the correctness of the figures I have given, — I allude principally to n examma- of classical tents. In armacopea, , or Sallust )ok. classical at- xamination linments. y and Na- )ra. I Composi- istorj. nd Modern an entirely itriculation r advanced ' a Matric- inished his again. I iially acted sraman is Medicine. I ;ter, if he either a courses in is not the d action of ;h April. ties which on. The le present met, with adduced have de- consistent de to im- cipally to 41 my statements as to the comparative cost of our Professorships, Examina- tions and Scholarships, as compared with those of other Universities ; but Dr. Ryerson has accused me of misleading the Committee on this latter point by confounding together University and College Scholarships. A reference to my evidence will show that I have in all cases, where institu- ting the comparison, shown the distinction in this respect, and have argued that our system of University Scholarships is much more liberal and more calculated to promote the end for which they were established, than when they are exclusively connected rith a particular college. In answer to the objections adduced against our system of options as unprecedented and injurious, I have shown by a reference to the course prescribed in other Universities, and to the recommendations of the Royal Commissioners, that we are supported by the example of those whom we may well take as our models, in arranging a scheme by which an extended course of study may be combined with a thorough mastery of the special branches selected by the student. Here also Dr. Ryerson has attempted to show ihat, in quoting from the Commissioners on the Queen's University, Ireland, I have misrepresented their recoirimendations. But the passages which I have requested the Clerk to read at the table, show that the sub- jects which they recommended should not be required from all students afler the second year, embrace, as I stated. Classics, Mathematics and Modern Languages. There is another part of my argument, which is more a question of opinion than of fact, viz., the relative standard required by us, and by other Universities. It will be admitted that the full course in each department, including Honor Work, is with us a high standard, and we have had students who would have distinguished themselves in any University, but it never was argued, and it would be absurd to suppose that our students, as a rule, could compare with the picked men of Great Britain. Wh it I have argued is this : (1) That we have wisely lowered the matriculation examination, which was too high ; but that even now it is as high as it has been thought prudent to insist upon at home, being rather above that at London and Cork, and the only equivalent examination at Cambridge, though rather below that at Belfast, and the only equivalent examination at Oxford ; (2) That the standard for a common degree is as high as in the British Universities ; and (3) That the stage at which we Dcirait students to branch off into the special department each may select, is very similar to that already established in the same Universities, or strongly recommended by the Royal Commissioners. The relative difficulty of the subjects proposed for examination is, as I have stated, a matter of epinion, and can only be judged of by a scholar, and I therefore desire upon this point to take the evidence of a gentleman unconnected with the University, whose ability to speak upon the subject is well known to the Committee. E. A. Meredith, Esquire, appeared agreeabk to request of the Committee and was Examined. » "Questions submitted by Mr. Langton and put . {By the Chairmen.) Ques. 521. Are you a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin ?— I am. 42 Ques. 622. Did you obtain honors in that University ? — Yes, I obtained honors in the University at ahnost all the examinations of the under- graduate course, both in Classics and Mathematics, also a fccholarship in Classics, and a medal in Science at the Degree Examination, besides some other honors. Ques. 523. Are you well acquainted with the subject of University education ? — T have some acqufiintance with the subject, having been 7 years in the University of Dublin, and having had some connection with the University of McGill College in this country. Ques, 524. Have you compared the Matriculation Examination of the University of Toronto, with those prescribed in other Universities, and what is your opinion of their comparative standards ? — I have compared it with the Matriculation Examinations at Cambridge, London, Cork, Belfast and Dublin. It seems to me to be about equal to Cambridge, rather greater than London, greater than Cork, less than Belfnst, and less than Dublin. Ques. 525. Have you compared the examinations for Responsions at Oxford, with the examinations prescribed in the University of Toronto ? — Yes. Ques. 620. Would you consider that a student who could pass the ex- aminations in Classics, up to the second year inclusive in Toronto, had been as severely tested as one who had passed tlie Oxford Responsions ? — Assuming the examinations equally strict, I think the test is quite as severe. Ques. 521. Have you compared the subjects of the previous examina- tion at Cambridge, the first in the University, held in the middle of the second year, with those for Matriculation, and the first year in the Univer- sity of Toronto, and do you think that a student who has passed the two latter has been as severely tested as one who has passed the former? — Yes; on the same supposition as in my previous answer. Qnes. 528. Do you believe that it is more advisable to have a uniform and united course of study for all students, or a course embracing a wider range of subjects with a liberty of choice ? — I am decidedly in favor ot a wider extension of subject^, and liberty of choice. It seems to rae that under the latter system, the aggregate amount of information obtained by students of a University would clearly be much laiger. Ques. 529. Do you think that Latin, Greek and Mathematics should be the leading subjects of study in a University course, and what other subjects would you recommend to be introduced ? — I think they ought to be the leading subjects, but many other subjects of very great importance should in my opinion be introduced, such as Natural Sciences, English History and Literature, Political Economy, Law, Medicine and Modern Languages. Also Mental at)d Moral Philosophy. Ques. 5.30. Are you aware what the tendency has been in this respect in the British Universities ? — I think in all the British Universities they have within the last few years very greatly extended the course, and also introduced the system of motions. Tliey have done so in Cambridge, Ox- ford, and Dublin, also in the Queen's Universifr. Ques. 531. Are you acquainted with the organization of the Profes- soiial staff in University College, and do you think there are too great a 43 number of chairs as compared witli the practice of British Universities ? — I do not think there are too many chairs; I sliould be inclined to intro- duce, if possible, a chair of Political Economy, the ordinary chairs of Law and Medicine, and a chair of Civil Engineering. Ques. 532. Do you know what the salaries of the Professors in the University of Toronto are, ar.d do you think they are too great or too small? — I do not think the salaries are too large. I believe they are not more than enough to secure the services of really competent men, which seems to me the true test of their sufficiency. Ques. 633. Do you think it a wise policy to have a liberal foundation of scholarships in a University ? — I do. It seems to me that in this country it is even more desirable than in ^rcat Britain. The objects of scholar- sliips, I take it, are two, first to afford the poorer classes of students the opportunity of obtaining a University etlucation; then to stimulate .inJ reward exertion. In this country the proportion of poor students is greater than at home, and the desire for literary distinction is perhaps less. Ques 534. Do you think that scholarships should beopen to free compe- tition, or that they should be Hmited to any particular College or class? — Open to free competition. Ques. 535. Do you think that a scholarship when gained should be held for a limited term of years or that it should be competed for annually ? — I am inclined to think that as a general rule it would be wise to have them competed for annually. In Dublin University the principal scholarship is held for five years, and it was often found that a man after gaining it remained the rest of the time perfectly idle, making no exertion to obtain distinctions during the rest of his course. Ques. 536. Do you think that 61 scholarships of thirty pounds a year in all the faculties as established in the University of Toronto, is too great a number or too large an amount, taking into consideration that they are only tenable for one year, and that the number of students examined has already increased from 16 in 1856 to 196 in 1860? — I am not prepared to answer that question positively. The number appears to me to be large, but it is probably not larger than the number in some Universities at home.