^. ^T^"^.^. ^^^ ^-^ IMAGE EVALU^ JION TEST TARGET (MT-S) ^ .^V^ 1.0 I.I I^|2j8 |Z5 ■50 "^~ iimh us u 140 HUu IL25 III 1.4 6" 1.6 V] 7: /A Photographic Sdences Corporation 23 WIST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, N.Y. 14SM (716) 873-4503 k i\ ^ ^ i\ •^ ^ ^ ^ CIHM/ICMH Microfiche Series. CIHIVl/ICIVIH Collection de microfiches. Canadian Institute for Historical Microreproductions / Institut Canadian de microreproductions historiques Technical and Bibliographic Notas/Notes tachniquaa at bibiiographiquas Tha Inatituta haa attamptad to obtain tha baat original copy availabia for filming. Faaturaa of thia copy which may ba bibllographically uniqua, which may altar any of tha imagas in tha raproduction, or which may aignificantly changa tha.uaual mathod of filming, ara chackad balow. D D D n n Colourad covara/ Couvartura da coulaur I I Covara damagad/ Couvartura endommagAa * Covara raatorad and/or laminatad/ Couvartura raatauria at/ou palliculte Covar titia miaaing/ La titra da couvartura manqua Colourad mapa/ Cartaa gAographiquaa an coulaur Colourad ink (i.a. othar than blua or black)/ Encra da coulaur (i.a. autra qua blaua ou noira) I I Colourad piataa and/or iiluatrationa/ Planchaa at/ou illustrationa an coulaur Bound with othar material/ RailA avac d'autraa documanta Tight binding may cauaa ahadowa or diatortion along interior margin/ La rt liure 8err6e peut cauaar da I'ombre ou de la diatortion la long de la marge IntArieure Blank iaavea added during restoration may appear within the text. Whenever poaaible, theae have been omitted from filming/ II «e peut que certainaa pages bianchea ajoutAea lore d'une restauration apparaiaaent dana la texte. mala, ioraqua cela ttait poaaible, cea pagea n'ont pas 4tA filmtaa. Additional commanta:/ Commentairea aupplimentairaa: L'Institut a microfilm^ la meilleur exemplaire qu'il lui a 4tA possible de se procurer. Les details de cet exemplaire qui sont peut-Atre uniques du point de vue bibllographique, qui peuvent modifier une image reproduite, ou qui peuvent exiger une modification dana la mithoda normale de filmage aont indiqute ci-dessous. D D D D D D D n This item is filmed at the reduction ratio checked below/ Ce document eat filmi au taux de rMuctlon indlquA ci-deasous. 10X 14X 18X 22X Colourad pagea/ Pagea da coulaur Pagea damaged/ Pagea endommagtea Pagea restored and/or laminated/ Pagea rastaurAea at/ou peilicuitea Pagea discoloured, stained or foxed/ Pages dAcoior^es, tachattea ou piquAea Pagea detached/ Pagea ditachtea Showthrough/ Tranaparance Quality of print variea/ Quality inigala de I'lmpression Includes suppjamentary material/ Comprend du materiel suppKmentaire Only edition available/ Seule Mition diaponible Pagea wholly or partially obscured by errata slips, tissuea, etc., have been ref limed to ensure the best possible image/ Lea pages totaiement ou partiellement obacurcias par un feuillet d'errata, une pelure, etc., ont At* fiimAea A nouveau de fapon A obtenir la meilleure image poaaible. 26X 30X • 12X 1IX 20X 24X 2IX 32X I itails I du odifier ' una maga Tha copy filmad hara has baan raproducad thanks to tha ganarosity of: Library of tha Public Archivas of Canada Tha imagas appaaring hara ara tha bast quality possibia considaring tha condition and iagibiiity of tha original copy and in kaaping with tha filming contract spacif icatlons. L'axamplaira filmA fut raproduit grAca k la g^nArosit* da: La bibiiothdqua das Archivas publiquas du Canada Las imagas suivantas ont itt raproduitas avac la plus grand soin. compta tanu da la condition at da la nattatA da I'axampiaira film6. at an conformity avac las conditions du contrat da filmafija. Original copias in printad papar covars ara filmad baginning with tha front covar and anding on tha last paga with a printad or iilustratad impras- sion, or tha back covar whan appropriata. All othar original copias ara filmad baginning on tha first paga with a printad or iilustratad impras- sion. and anding on tha last paga with a printad or iilustratad imprassion. Las axamplalras originaux dont la couvartura en papiar ast imprimte sont filmAs an commandant par la pramiar plat at an tarminant soit par la darnlAra paga qui comporta una amprainta d'imprassion ou d'illustration. soit par la sacond plat, salon la cas. Tous las autras axamplaires originaux sont filmte an comman9ant par la pramlAra paga qui comporta una amprainta d'impraasion ou d'illustration at an tarminant par la darniAra paga qui com». orta una talla amprainta. Tha last racordad frama on aach microficha shall contain tha symbol — ^> (moaning "CON- TINUED"), or tha symbol V (moaning "END"), whichavar applias. Un das symboias suivants apparaftra sur la darniAra imaga da chaqua microfiche, salon la cas: la symbols — ► signifie "A SUIVRE". le symbols V signifie "FIN". Maps, plates, charts, etc., may be filmed at different reduction ratios. Those too large to b« entirely included in one exposure are filmed beginning in the upper left hand corner, left to right and top to bottom, as many frames as required. The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes, planches, tableaux, etc.. peuvent Atre filmAs A des taux da rAduction diffArents. Lorsque le document est trop grand pour Atre reproduit en un seul clichA, il est fiimA A partir da Tangle supArieur gauche, de gauche A droite, et de haut an bas, an prenant la nombre d'imagas nAcessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrant la mAthode. irrata to peiure, nA □ 32X 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 / > OtcA A,^,, ,^, y^v, ^V iSt-. ^ C ^'<^ r'^^. /'-. REPORT > ■— > II Mil I FROM THE H: SELECT COMMITTEE 0.\ THE ^i!2!:_GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ""'"•'^'^""".^T^S'ssr'-'— - QUEBEC: ne.-Pdn,ed by Order C tb. „„„,, ^f A.„„„, „, , ^ 1829. !»'«' ■^ .>. # A 1 ^ THE REPORT ... MINUTES OF EVIDENCE APPENDIX II i \^. i. r j 7! « WITNESSIM. Jovis, R* die Malj 1828. Samuel Gale - - .' . Miirtis, 13 » (lio Maij 1628. Snmud (Julc, Es(i. Jovis, l.>5 die Maij 1828. Lduard EUicCy Esfj . ' . Sabhat i ,17* die Mai i 1818. Edward Ellke, Esq. . . Martis, 20 ® die Maij 1828. John Neilsoti, Esq. Sabbati, 24.« die Maij 1828. Ju/m Nei/son, Esq. Marfis, .3® die Maij. 1828. Mr. Simon Mc Gillivrai/ ' . Jovis, 5 « die Junii 1828. JohnNcihon, Esq. Sabbati, 7® die Junii 182?. JohnNeilson, Esq. - . . Itenis Bevjamin Viger Esq. - Martis, 10® die Juisii 1828. "ems Benjamin Viycr, Esq. - Jovis, 12® die Junii 1828. Austin Cuvillier, Esq. - Tu ^^"''I'at'. I+® die Junii 1828. ine Rev. C/-os^»je Morgell - J^ord Viscount «a/irfon - Austin Cuvillier, Esq. - p. 1 20 36 65 77 98 111 136 1+5 158 M.irt.s, 17® . d Mr. y IJST OF APPENDIX. t t Xo. y.— V,. No. No. 1.— PKTITTON of His Mjijosty's .lntiful an.l loyal sul)i.'rts of Priti^li liirfli or l»i|tsani| |>lii"(s sifnutod on llu' ISouth East side of tho Hiver St. Lawrence, in tliu Province of Lower Canada -.---- p. 343 1. — ir^'DENTl'PE for conveyin;; a certain Tra(;t of Lund in tho Connty of Mont- ^oui'.ry, now the Connty of Herkimer . - . - . j). 347 J.— LETTIV S PATENT to Robert (Ji'bert Livingston, Townsliip No. 40, in Tottenund Cros slio'd's Pnrcliase, in 1772, containin'r 25,'if)() acre* p. 34y C— CONVEYANCE for JJS.nno acres of Land in the Counties of Washinnrton and Cinton, in thu State of New- York ; July 1769 - - - p. 3i>0 Nu. T.~ POPULATION of Lower Canada No. fJ.— l p 95S No. 9.- No 10 N'o. 11 No. 12 No. 13 No. 14 No. 15 1 1 No. 16 1 No. 17 r No IS 1 '■■■■>.. IE SOLUTIONS relative to the appropriation of the Clcrify Re.servcs, passed by tho Commons Honse of Assenibly of Upper Canada, lb2G • p. 3S5 -roURTIT ARTICLE of the Delinitive Treaty of Peace, concluded betweeu tiie Kin;^s of («reat Britain and Franco on tho 10th Eebruarv, in the vdir 17()3 ' - p.'3JG — PUOCLAMATION of the Kin;rof Great Britain, r-Ciinada, and that Emigrants of Dritisli origin have been deterred from settling in the Province ; and, Anailly, they pray that a Legialative Union may take place be- tween Upper and Lower-Canada. Your Committee then proceeded to examine the Petition signed by abont 87,000 Inha- bitints of Lower-( Canada, resident within the Seigneuries, who <;ompbiin of arbitrary conduct on the part of the Governor of the Provuice ; of his having applied public money ^rithont legal appropriation ; of violent prorogations and dissohitions of the Pro- vincial Parliament ; ami of his having pn^vented the passing of many useful Acts, which they enumerate. They complain also, that a Heceiver-tieneral had been maintained in the exercise of his fimctions for some yeans after his insolvency was known to the (Jo- vernment ; tliat similar abuses bad prevailed with respect to the office of Sheriff. And it is further stated, that the rights of the Petitioners hjul been injured by Acts of the Imj)erial Parli.imeut, uarticularly by the Canada Trade Act, and the .'.ct passed in the sixth year of His Majesty's lleign, c. 59, aiFeciiug the Tenures of Laud. For a fuither knowledge of the grievances complained of, your Committee beg Itfave to refer to the Petitions which Avill be found in the Appendix. Before your Committee proceed to explain or to discuss these important subjects, they think it their duty to state, that Petitions from the Province of Upper-Canada were also refeiTed to their consideration; the prayer of which Petitions is, that the proiceeds arising from the sale of certain Lands, set apart for a Protestant Clei^y, may not- be ap- plied solely to the use of the Clergy of the Church of England, (the adherents to which thionghout the Province they state, in contradiction to the representations of Archdeacon Strachan, to be comparatively few in number), but that they may be applied to the main- tenance of Protestant Clergymen of other denominations, and to the purposes of general education. - ^, -m .A -. • Mtt- .*« Ri:i»OKT I'UO.M TlIK ST. LI-( T ( O.MMmr.K An llit'si' IVtilioiiH a|»|H>iir to runipit'lii-inl tlio most niiitrriiil Milijocts lli.il liavt! ol l.it«< i^il:tli'il till' I'i'oviiU'tvs of L'|)|icr ami Lout'r-Caiiiulii, your (.'oiiiiiiilttM! (lioii<;lit |Ih> lifst, ;oiirHf lliey coiiltl |iiirMH* uas to (•xaiiiiiu' witiu'NSCH tis to ca< It i'l'tilioii in Niifn>s.Nioii ; ft com that — — .' - — ' I - — • ,---_ J Hiid ill foimiimiii'atin^ to tlio llmiHO tlio inlonuatioii tlu'V liavo r<><'«>iv«'(l, aiitl tin* ojiiiiioiiH tliiiy liiivif Im'imi iii(l to form a.s to tlit; Tivil (SoviTiiiiKMit of Caiiaila, tliry uill li«>at of lliu ilitt't'i'iMit HiiiijtM'tN, us much as |)ossililo, in the onli-r in \iiiit.-!i th«*y iv«>re iii< VestijfiUfd. Your Comnilltoo procordvd to pxnmiiio into tliu syHtom of ].n\v ONtaMiKliod in I^om'it- <'anadu, to wliirh thoirattt'iitiuii >viim |mrtiviilai-ly in ^'roat ilctail im this snl>jiH-t ; from which thoy cuih'rt, that iinciM'tainty has hm<; oxiMtcd on points «*f huv n>latiii Tc- niirv of Ucal Pro|icrty in that |iortion of tlio I'rovinci'. It apiicars that sliortly nftcr tlitt Cession of tli(> iVuviiico, thu Kiii^ of Kii^rjaiwi, in a Proclamation «lal4<«l the Ttii of ".^tobt'r I7(i3, (wbich will h)> found in the AnptMidix), declared, ninon!ishe«l in " every Court of Justice, to be appointed within the Proyiiu'e, slioiild, with respect to " such property and rincii Law, namely, " that it should lu t apply to Lands which hud been or bhonld bu granted " in Free and Common fcioccage." After an interval of seventeen yeai-s, this Act was followed by the Constitutional Act of 1791. The provisions of this important Act have no liearinal and local information, to enter for any useful purpose into minute and intri<'ate details. They do not however decline to otl'er as their opinion, that it would be advuiitii^eous that the declaratory enactment in the Tenure Act, rcspcctiujj Lands held in Free and Coninum Soccajje, should be retained ; that niortjfOjfes shoula be special, and that in proceed! njj-s for the conveyance of IN Tiin civil. (iovr.n>->iFNT or c anaha. ears not •rciicral conliiii; (Mits of own iimoiily u'liicii iiistoi'i>d. p. Your >f their [for any [O o(i(L>r iu the |tainc(l ; liand, 10 prill- lobabiy, " dcvilii Yoiu- \u\U' ('oiiniil(ti>«> iin> riirlli<>r lit «(|iiiiinM, tliat intMim sliuiilil Im' CoiuhI <>ri)rinr;tliK Art \ niiitulioii of tciiiirt', Hiiil tlii'V <'(iliilain no iloiilit nl tin' iii<'.\|MMli)>in y ui' rcliiiiMiiu' th«> sfi<|iifiiriiil ■ i Iio|m> uC ilcrix in^' ii prolil IVoin tlicni. 'Ili«> Mi(-rili*'<< on th«> irirt <>(' th«> (roHa moiiIiI Im* tiilliii'^, iiinl \tny I'rom such u ronti'SNioii. In addition fo thoso n'roninifiidations, it a|i|»«>arH to h«» doxirald** that nonio rompHoni jiiriMlirtion should ho ostaldishrd to try and ihrid*' i-auxoN arihiu^'' out oC this dt'srriplion 4it' |>rop«>rty, and that Cirtuit Courts i>hoiihl hi> iiiMitntcd within th«< ToMUHhipfi Tor th(> Kiunc purjtosc. The Comniitfoo cannot too stroufj-lv expross th«'ir opinion, that tho (,'anndinnH of Fronrli i<\trMi'ti«in sh«uild in no (h'irrri' hi' di.stnrhfd in thi' p«>ai-<'fnl t'ujoynu'nt of their ndi^'hMi, hiws and privih'^'s, i\s scciirtMl to IIh'UI hv thi> British ArtM of i'arliauK'ut i and no far from r*M|uiriu)r tlwui to liold hinds on thi> hritish Ti-iiure, thiy tliiiiK that u li«>n th«> hiinis in tin* Si'i^riiciirii's art* fully orcupii'd, if tin* ih'M'i-ndantN of thi> ori of /•'/»■/' «7 Srii/innrit; tln-y mm* no ohjiTtitin to othrr portions of unornipii>d lauds iu that I'rovinrt! Immii).'' uranti'd to thi'in on that t«»- Mui-f, provided that siit'h hinds arc apart from, and nut int(>riui\i>d with, the Townships. Yonr Cominittee are now dv^ironn of advert in"- to the Hepresontative System of Lowel* Canada, with respect to whi«'h all parties seem to a^ree that sonu> ('hantfe shonld take place ; to this branch of their enipiiry they are desirous of recalliiineuries. A IMU actually jHissed tlie Assemblv, theobject of which was t(» increatte the num- ber of the Hepreseutative Assembly. This Bill did not become a law ; and it appears to have l>een founded upon the same principle, and to have involved the sjime error as the origi- nal arrangement by Sir Aimed Clarke. It has been stated by (Hie of the witnesses, that under the proposed division, a disproportiuiiatv inciVii.sv would have been given to the Hepresentutives from the Seif^neurieti. In providtuff a representative syntein for the inhabitants of a country whi di is p'radually coniprehendin^r within its jintiN newly peopled and extensive districts, ^reat imperfect ions must necessarily arise from proceedinir, in the first instance, on the basis of population oidy. In l'|iper Caiiaihi, a representative system has been founded on the compound basis «»f Territory aiul Popuhitiun. This principle wc think mi;rlit be advuuta^euusly adopted iu Lower Canada. One of the obstacles which is »aid greatly to impede the improvement of the Conn- try, is the practice of makinPcomoH thi* duty of Your Committee to ndvcrt to tho lVtilion« Hipnod l>y tho Inl.iilkitiintH oC tlin S<>iu:n«>uri<>fl, On the important Kiil>j«>i-tN roiitaiiird iu tliom, they thoutfluit rijjlit to rail for explmitttion from Mr. NoilNon, Mr. ViiH of tli<> AxHcniMy <»f I.ou-«>r ('iuiiida, >vho had Im>i>ii di'itutoilto thiH country fur the )iur|)otit> of NeekiugriHJn'Nii for tho iiijurii'McomiihuMod of liy thu Petitioners. From thetextirtlony of these pontlemen they have learned, with the deepent re|)l>ar to have done) in doiilitH a.s to the n<;ht (ro|iriatin<; and i\c conntin^f for a <'onsiderahle portion of the iMil.lic revenues, have led ton state of ej»' leave to refer to the evidence of Mr. Neilson, and of Mr. Winuot Ilorton, for a detailed account of tho ori<;'in and pro^reisN of these diti'erences. Upon this important suhject ronr Committee have felt that they should not do wisely in confininn^their views toa critical examination of the precise mennin»' of the words of the different IStatntes. They look rather to the circumstances of Lower Canada, to the spirit of its Constitution, to the position and cluu-acter of the local (Government, and the power», privilejrea and duti«>s of the two branches of the Le|ris!ttture. Al- thoujfh frona the opinion given by the law OtTicei's of the C'rown, your Committee must conclude that tne lejjal rijjht of appropriiitinif the revcniu»« arising from the Act of 1774 is vested in the Crown, they are prepwed to say that the real interests of the Pro- vinces would be best promoted by placing tne receipt and expenditure of the whole public revenue under the superintendance and control of the House of Assembly. .On the other hand your Committee, while recommending^ such a concession on the part of the Crown, are stronjjfly in pressed with the advantajje ofTenderinjr the Governor, the Members of the Executive Council, and the Jud«>-es, independent of the annual votes of the House of Assembly for their respective SiUai'ies. Your Committee are fully aware of the obje<-tions in principle which may be fairly raised o^inst the practice of votin;,' permanent salaries to Judsrcs, who are removable at the pleasure of the Crown; but beiiir of removal, and haviu'r well considered the pul>- lic inconvenience Avnich miijht result from their beiii Iom k Hum thnn ^ liO/MM) without tli« rontont of tlio 1\opr.'N ol'tho l'«>i>iilo, uBilur Hhoi»« cuutrol tliL> nji^iru^iriutiiuu uf these ituiat in plaiuJ by till- (uiiHtitiitiuii. Your Comniittt'p cannot but oxfiroiM their (1im>|) rojfrot that Mu-h a ntat** of tiiiii;;i« n!ioii!(1 luivi'lit'oii allounl to oxiHt for KiruiHiiy jwarn in a liritixh ('o!o"y, williuulauyiutiiiuiiiii* c.'itiunur rcforoufe Lnvin|{; heou uiuduto PurliunitMit uu the Kuljoot. rpoufhc" Hflvt'r.il pohits n-ferrod to your Conimitteo, oonn«'ctetl with th*> ()ffi«'o of ,'lc- (•<«ivi T (it'iinral, of the Shi'rirtn, ami of the JoHuitH* KMtato, your Coiui)iitN>(> |iro«t'i'J(vl tu ••xaiiiiiu'c'videnco iiiioni'afh. Th« fa(t» of th« cuxos OHro^anU tin* U«'f«'iv('r (iiMural, Mr. ('altaik'r| iu Mr. NfiUoii*H cvidtMici*. Mr. Cahhvcll uuh a ((•■iaultcr iii Is-i.'i for .tV)^, of tli<> I ulilic mon«>y of the I'roviuoo. Ciiouan cxaiiiiiiutiou of IiIh ai-co'.iiiti< liy tho HouHrof AmnimuMv, nouoqiiittui rould bo trntva from thv Treasury of a later datit titiiii ISI4, thoiijrli some buluiu-t'H Mere statod U|i to 1810 ; mid it A|»|irarcd hy d«*i'iiii.i>iit4 tht'i) |)rodiii-i'd, that the fuct of Iuh detiiiency wan known for a considerahie time hufcire l:o Mas K(ts{iended. Your rommiltoo ro«*rtinmpnd for the fnttire, that step* Hhould t>o tahen, i»» , ,l*(i«'.it so- nmt'u'n and hy a n^nilar audit of the uicouuts, to |>reveut thu reuurrence of bii^uuir Iosmh and iuronvonionceb to tlio I'rovime. > •• ' ♦ As fonncfted with this branch of the inquiry, your Committrn roc* .nend, that "ii'- caiitions of the sanienKture Hliould be adopted «ith reffiU'il to the S' ♦•rill's ; as i n-'pcars th, It within a few years two ' ' nvon of the insolvency of thoKO otiicerN h.ive i-Mficd M hile jiosiiessed, iu virtue of their otKce, of lurgc sums of money dcjiosited ia tl.eir iiaiulM. With respe<'t to the Kstntes which formerly belonijod to the JeHiiits, your Co.rmitteo lament that thev hiive not more full information ; hut it appe.irti to tlic.u to bu tlosiralile that the proceedH uhould be a|iplied to thu purpo^eH of (;;eueral edno^tiou. One of the most important subjects to which their inrjnirief) have been dire* ted ; lias been the state of the Len-ii>lative CounciU in both the Canada!*, and the niaiiiii'i !n wliiih these A9<5embUen have auHwered the purjioses for which they were iu^titiited. Y<'i!r Committee stroiijfly recommend, that a more independent chai'aoter Khonld be pveii to these bodies; that the majority of their Members should not oouKiKt of perM)ns holdin:»' otKresuttlie pleasure of the Crown.; and that any other nicMSures tlut nniy tend to con- nect more intimately this branch of the Constitution with thfl intereRt of the ( oloaicN, would be attended with the greatest advantan:e. With resi)e«'t to the Judges, with tlie ex- ception only of the Chief Justice, whose presence, on particular occisions, niii;lit be ne- cessary, your Committee entertain no doubt that they nad better not bo involved in the political business of the House. Upon similar grounds it ap]>e»r8 to j'otir Committee, that it is not desirable tliat Judges should hold seats iu the Executive Couucil. Your Committee are desirous of recording the principle wlrch, in their judj^'ment, should be applied to any alterations in the Constitution of the Cunadas, which were im- parted to them under the formal Act of the British Legislatnrcof 1791. That principle is to limit the alterations which it may bo desirable to make by any future British A^t, as far as possible, to such points as, from the relation between the Mother Country and the Canndas, can only be disposed of by the paramount authority « f the British Le<;-islaturo ; ► effect by ^erumont. and they are of opinion that all other chaiures should, if possible, be carried into i the local Le^nslatures themselves, ia amicable communication vith the local Ciov( Upon the frreat question of the Union of the two Canada.", your Committee have re- reived much evidence, to which they desire to - ?V the attention of the House. With re- ference to the state of public feelinff that appears to prevail in these Colonies on this mo- mentous subject, your Committee are not prepai'ed, under present circumstiujces, to re- commend that measure. Your It ' 6 RKPORT FROM TIIR SKLnOT COMMITTEE Your Cominittei; nrvertliclpss tliink it lii^hly dcsirablo tliat some Ratlsfurtory nrraiijro- meiit, (iiiid it' poHsible one of n permaiioiit nature,) should be eflW'ttMl h<>tivo«Mi tlu> two CauadaM with r<> iin|iONition and distrihutiou ofthtt CuNtoiiis ctdli't'trd in tius ^ St. LuH-reiu'4\ Tht>y trust, however, when the heats which so unfortunately exist, shall have subsided, that tmvh an arraugeincut nviy be inictibly effected. It now remains for us to lay before the House the result of our inquiries into tho rifrgy Reserves, which appear, by tho statements of tho Petitioners from l^jjper- (.'anada, to be llie cause of mu<'li anxiety and dissatisfaction in that Province. By the Act of 1791 the Governor is directed to make, from and out of the Lands of the Oown within such Provinces, >iuch allotment and appropriation of Lauds for the sup- port and maintenance of a Protestant Clergy within the ttanie, a-s may bear a due propor- tion to tho amount of such Lands within th6 same, as have at any time been jj^ranted by or under any authority of Ilis Ma jest}'. And it is further provided, that such Lauds so al- lotted and appropnated shall be, as nearly as the circumstances and tlie nature of the cmc will admit, bf the like nuality as tho Lauds in respect of whi(di the same are so allot- ted and appropriated ; and shall be, a.s nearly as tho same may be estimated at the time of nuiking such grant, equal in value to the seventh part 6f the lands so granted. The directions thus given have been strictly carried into efTect, and the result is, that the separate portions of Land whi«-h liavt bccu thus reserved are scattered over the whole of tho Districts already granted. ^ It was no doubt expected by the fromers of this Act tliat, as the otiier six parts of the I^nd'granted were improved and cultivated, the reserved part Mould pros which thus separate them from their neighbours. The al- lotment of those portions of reserved wilderness has, in fact, done naich more to diminish the Vitlue of the six parts granted to these settlers, than the improvement of their allot- ments has done to encrease the value of the reserve. This we think must be apparent from the results of the attempts which have been made to disnose of these Lands. A cor- poration has been formed within the Province, consisting of tiic Clergy of the Church of England, who have been empowered to grant leases of those Lands for a term not exc4>ed- ing 21 years. It appears that in the lower Province alone tlie total quantity of C'lergy Re- serves IS 488,594> acres, of which 7.5,<)39 acres ai-c granted on leases, the terms of which are, that for every lot of 200 acres, 8 bushels of wheat or 258. per annum, shall be paid for the tirst 7 years ; 16 bushels, or 50s. per annum, shall be paiu for tho next 7 years, and 24 bushels, or 75s. per annum, for tho last 7 years. Under these circumstiiu<-es, the no- minal rent of the Clergy Reserves is j£930 per annum. Tho actual receipt for the average of the last three years has been only ^50 per annum. The great difference betM'eeii the nominal and the net receipt is to be accounted for by the gi*eat dlHiculty of collecting rents, and by tenants absconding. We are informed ab^o, that the resident Clergy act as local Agents in collecting the rents, that a sum of j£175 had been deducted for the ex- penses of management, and that at tlio date of the last communication on this Kubject, £250 remained in the hands of the Receiver-General, being the gross produce of the whole revenue of an estate of 954,488 acres. An attempt has been mad% to dispose of this estate by sale. The Canada Company, es- tablished by the Act Cth Geo. IV. cap. 75, agreed to purchase a large portion of these re-- serves at a price to be fixed by Commissioners ; 3s. Gd. per acre was the pri<'e estimated, audat this turn an uu^'illingness was expressed on the part of the Church to dispose of the Unds. TIm ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 7 Tlie foie have niftde nrrau^onifliUs with tlie Coni|mny, And Mn Art ha« «in«-o boon passod autiiorixiii); tlio salo of thcuo Liiiid» to any |)ci'nou dcsii-in^ to jini- cliase them, provided the quauttty sold does upt exceed lOO/KK) acre* eaeli year. As your Commiftoc entertain no doubt that the reservation of these Lands in Mort- main IS a s«'rious obNtacle to the improvement of the Colony, they think every pi-oper ex- ertion fhouhi be made to pla«-e them in the hands of persouH who will perform upon them the duties of settlement, and bring them gradually into cultivation. That their value, >vhatever it may be, must be applied to the maintenance of a Pro- ti'staiit Clergy, thero can be no doubt. And your Committee regret that then; is no pros- pert, as far as « present aujl a succeeding generation is roncerned, of their produce being sufficient for that object, in a country whevo wholly unimproved land is granted in fee tor iUmost nothing to persons willing to settle on it. It is hardly to be expected that with the exception of some favoured allotments, responhiblo tenants will be found who will hold ou lease, or that purchase'rs of such Land will be found at more than a nominal price. Your Committee, however, are happy to find that the principle of the progressive sale of these lauds has already been sanctioned by an Act of the British I^rliament. They «-au- not avoid recommending in the strongest manner the propriety of securing for thefuturo any provision which may be deemed necessary for the religious wants of the community in those Provinces, by other means than by a reservation of one-seventh of the laud, ac- cording to the enactment of the Act of 171)1. They would also observe that equal objec- tions exist to the reservation of tl|at seventh, wl}it;.h Hi practice appears to be reserved for the benetlt of the Crown ; and doubtless the time must an'ivc when these reserved Landrf will have acquired a considerable value from the circumstance of their being surroundeil by settled districts, but that value will have been acquired at the expense of the real in- rerest of this Provincie, and will oi)erate to retard that course of geneml improvement, which is the true source of national wealth. Your Committee are of o|>inion theretiiire, that it may bo M'ell for the (Government to consider whether these I^nds cannot be per- manently alienated, subject to some Hxed moderate reserved payment, (either in money tf)r in grain, as may be demanded,) to arise Jifter the iirst 10 or 15 years of occupation. They nAi not prepared to do njore than otier this suggestion, which appeai-s to thenr to be worthy of more careful investigation than it is in tneir nower to giv« to it ; hnt in this, or iu some su<-h mode, they arc fully persuaded the Lauoti thus reserved ought without delay to bo permanently (disposed of. To a |>ro|)erty at ouco su largo and so unproductive, it appears that there aic numcrr ous claimantii. The Act of 1791 directs that the profits arioing from this source shall be applied to a Protoscant Clergy; doubts have arisen whether tl«o Act requires the (iorernment to con- fine them to the use of the Church of England only, or to allow the Church of Svai land to participate in them. The Law Oflicers of the Crown have ^ivcn an opinion in favour of the Rights of the Chnruh of Scotland to such partiiripation, in which your Committee en- tirely concur; but the question has also lieen raised, whether the Clergy of every denomi- nation of Christians, except Roman (catholics, may not be included ; it is not for yoiu* Committee to evpress an opinion on the accuracy which the words of the Act legally con- vey. They entertain no doubt, however, that the intention of those persons who brought forward the measure in Parliament ivfis to endow with Parsonage Houses and (llebo Lands, the (.Uergy of the Church of England, at the discretion of the local Ooveriunent ; but with respect to the distribution of the proceeds of the reserved Liuids generally, they are of opinion thattl:ey sought to reserve to thv* Uoverumeut the right toup|.dy tlio money, if they so thought lit, to any Protestant Clergy. The Committee see little reason to hope that the annual income to be derived from this source is likely, within eny time to which they can look forward, to amount to a sufficient sum to provide for tue Protot>taat Clergy of these Proviuccs ; but they ven- tar* tl 8 REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ture to press the early consideration of this subject on His Majesty's Government, with a view to an adjustment tlutt they may be satisfactory to the Province ; of the princi- ple on which the proceeds J'rom these Lands are hereafter to be applied, and in dcci- diiijj on thejTist ana prudent application of these funds, the Government Mill necessarily be ialhienced by the state of the population, as to religious opinions, at tlie period when the decitsion is to be taken. At present it is certain that the adherents of the (Jliurch of England constitute but a small minority in the Province of Upper-Canada. — Ou the part of the Scotch Church, claims have been strongly urged on account of its es- tablishment in the Empire, and from the numbers of its adherents in the Province. With regard to the other religious sects, the Conuuittee have found much difficulty in as- certaining the exact numerical proportions which they bear one to the other; but the evi- dence has led them to believe, that neither the adherents of the Church of England nor those of the Church of Scotland form the most niuuerous religious body within the Pro- vince of Upper-Canada. The attention of the Committee having been drawn to the establishmont of the L'ui- vcrsity of King's College, at York, in Upper-Canada, they thought it their duty to exa- mine the Charter granted to that College ; that Charter was granted under the Great Seal, and it is to be observed, that it does not impose on the Students an obligation to sulwcribe to the thirty nine Articles, which M'as done m the case of the other North American Colleges. Your Committee find it provided, amongst other arrangements for the conduct and go- vernment of this Institution, that the Archdeacon of York for the time being, shall, by virtue of his Office, ax, all times be President of the said College. , It is further ordaiped, that there shall be within the said College or Corporation, a Council, to be called and kno^yn by the name of the College Council, which shall con- sist of the Chancellor, the President, and of seven Professors in Arts and Faculties of the said College ; and that such said Prdfessors shall be members of the Established Church of England and Ireland, and shall, pre^aously to their admission, sign and subscribe the thirty nine Articles of Religion. To tins Council the whole government of the College is confided. Of the great advantage M'hich the establishment of a College for the purposes of general education in Upper-Canada is likely to confer upon the Province, your Committee enter- tain the strong«ist conviction ; they lament only that the Institution should be so constitu- ted as materially to diminish the extent to which it might be useful. It cannot, they think, be doubted, as the guidance and government of the College is to be vested in the hands of the members of the Church of England, that in the elec- tion of Professors, a preference would inevitably be shown to persons of that persuasion ; and in a country where.only a small proportion of the inhabitants adhere to that Chui'ch, a suspicion and jealousy of religious interference would necessarily bo created. • For these and other reasons, the Committee are desirous of stating their opinion, that great benefit would accrue to the Province by changing the constitution of this body. Tliey think that two Theological Professors should be estaljlished, one of the Church of England and another of the Church of Scotland, (whose lectures the respective can- didates for holy orders should be required to attend) but that with respect to the Pre- sident, Professors, and all otheiis connected with tne College, no religious test what- ever should be required. - That in the selection of Professors no rule should be followed, and no other object -sought than the nomination of the most learned and discreet persons, and that (with exception of the Theological Professors) they should be required to sign a declani- tion, that, a« far as it was necessary for them to advert in their lectures to religious sub- jects, thev would distinctly recognise the truth of the Cluistian Revelation, but would Abstain altogether from inculcating particular doctrines. Though ernmcnt, with of the priuci- I, and iu deci- I necessarily be at tlM5 period lierents of the ppr-Canada. — .'ount of its cs- the Province, lifficulty in as- r ; but the evi- ' England nor ithiu the IVo- at oftheUni- p duty to cxa- he Uroat Seal, to sulwcribe to 'i(;an Colleges, induct and po- leing, shall, by Corporation, a lich shall con- acuities of the lied Church of ribe the thirty (gels confided. ises of general imittee enter- e so constitu- ie College is in the clec- t pcrsuatnion ; that Church, ted. oijinion, that of this body, f the Church spective can- to the Pre- test what- othcr object I that (with n a declara- sHgious snb- I, but would ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. i Though your Committee have now disponed of the most important subjects of theii enquiry, they are aware that on an examination of the petitions, and of the endeuce many other matters will appear entitled to consideration. The Canada advantag Committee think it necessary also to observe, that the evidence from Unpor- i has not been equally ample and satisfactory ^vith that which they have had th« .... ......age of receiving from the Lower Provinces. Your Committee, however, are de- sirous of directing the attention of Government to the Sedition Act, (should it not bo found to have expired,^ the repeal of which appears to ha^'e been long the object pf the efforts of the House of Assemuly of Upper-Canada. 'emraout lo any de- ind within the Province of remedying all minor grievances. They nre di»po.se. 1 1 > w # \ * m 0\ THE riViL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ' n MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Jovis, 60 die May. 182S. The Right Honourable THOMAS FRANKLAND LEWIS, IN THE CHAIR. - Samuel Gale^ Esq. called in, and examined^ What acquaintance have you with Cataada ?>— I have {"esided there ahnost from infancy. Are you a native of England ? — I am not; I am a native of St. Augiistine in East Florida. Have you held aoy public situations in Canada ?•'— I have. Be so L'ood as to state what they ate ?<— Chairman of the Quarter Sessions for the city and district of Montreal. Describe the nature of that situation ; by whom M'ere you appointed ?— The Governor- iu-chief. Is any salary annexed to it ?— There is. Have you ever held any other public situation in that country ? — I think not. I wa« once indeed, by some communications not under seal, requested to act as a Commissioner relating to the boundary lines between Upper and Lower Canada; there had been some difference with respect to these boundary lines, and I was written to act as Com- missioner. Are you a proprietor in Canada? — I am; I have lands both in the seigneuries and in the townships. Then you are acquainted w'th the division of Canada, with a view to the representation iu the Lower House of Assembly ?— I am. Can you state what is the proportion of persons having a right to vote residing in the seigneuries, as compared with those who reside in the town8hi|>s? — It would be impossi* ble for me to ansM'er that question. I can only state, that the condition which entitles persons to vote by the statute is being possessed, for their own use and benefit, of a dwelling-house' and lot of ground in the town or township, of the yearly value of £5 sterling ; or of being possessed of lands in freehold, or in fief, or in roture, of the yearly value of 40s sterling, or upwards. How many individuals there may be of that descrip*^ tion in the ProAnnce I can nardiy take upon me to say. What is the greatest number you have ever known polled at any election that has come under your observation ? — That again is a matter to which I have very little attended, and could scarcely take upon me to answer ^ I believe there is a great difference in the number of electors in different places ; in some places more than 3000 votes have been given ; in other places, such as Sorel and Threo-Uivers, only a few hundreds. Is not the town at which the election is held in the counties generally within the ■eigneuries ? — I do not know any instance where it is not in the seigneuries. And near of course to the River St. LawTence ? — Generally near the River St. Law- rence ; there are some of the places in the seigneuries that ai-e more or less distant from the St. Lawrence. Do tli^ voters residing in the townships generally attend the elections ?■— They do not generally attend at the elections. ^hat iatnuel GaU', J<>qtiirt;. 8 May, 1828. i li MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Siimiii-I Cote Wh«t prevents their nttend>incc ? — Tlie diotance at which they are from the olaoes of "losniiire.''' <"'»'<■< 'Oil ; the dirtu'iilfy of commiinieatioii from the bad state of the roads, whicn wouhl , '.^ ! ^ re(|iiire must of the inhahitjints of the townships votinjf at the electionato take a journey » May, ib2S. of three days, jjoiiifj and returnin^r; and very tew indeed would feel inclined to take such ajonrney, when tliey would of course find such numbers of other voters present as would ^ render whatever vote they miiienries (that is, answer better at any rate tiian they would with re- gard to till' townships,) are quite insullicient with respect to the townships; they oblige .; every inili/idnil in tlie seii^neuries to make a road along the front of his land. The laud III ' is 'jrener.illy divided into lots of three acres in front; the original object was that each in- divi'lnal propri. <.<»r might have a front upon the river. The lots run back generally to tli(> distance of about .'>() acres or a mile, so that each individual proprietor of a lot in the sei/neMiies may liavc his road to make along a front of three acres, but in the townships the lots arc laid out very differentl' , and there are reserves between the dii!orent lots ; so that it must l>e pei*fectly evident, that laws oblij'ing a person to make roads upon the front of their lands, could never answer to establish communications between one part of the country and another in the townships. [lave any attempts 1>eeu made by tlie Legislature to improve the system of maliing roads in t!»e townships ? — There were nearly, I believe, 23 yeare passed without more than per- il i;)s t'lOOO being given towards making roads ; from the tirst period when the Constitu- tion was establish;>d in 17:)1 to 1815, I believe that there was not more than ^1000 laid ^^ out u})on roads generally to make communications. In 1813 and in 1817, I believe, con- siderable sums of money were voted for the improvement of internal communications ; Finfc that period, for the last ten years, I think, there have not been more than about .\,';5000 devoted to that jjurpose, or authorized to be so employed. You say that the Iravs might do pretty well for the seigneuries; are good roads made under those laws in the seigneuries? — An Englishman certainly would consider them very bad. Are t!'ey practicable roads? — Tliey are practicable roads? Is not t ere a system of road-nuiking in t e seigneuries, conducted under tl.e system of law t^at prevails tfiere by an officer appointed, called the grand voyer tor the administra- tion of the reads in the seigneuries? — Thi^ person who lays out the roads is the grand voyer ; there is a grand voyer in each district. Can any road be made without his authority ? — Not legally established in the country. Does his Jiuthonty.extendto the Townships? — It does. "' How is he appointed ?- -Those oflice/s are appointed by the Governor. '' Has he the powci* of presening i\v: road when it is made? — There are persons, sous- voyers and others, appointed to supei-intend ; the grand-voycr makes his proces verbal to establish the roads ; this proces verbal is laid before the court of quarter sessions, and there it is either confirmed or rejei^ted. HoAvever, it is generally coiilirmed, inasmuch as the c^urt considers itself only entitled to reject when the forms of the law are not com- ^)plied with ; they considijr that the gruud-voyer is almost exclusively A'ested with the t'-ri^ht of detf rmining as to the expcMliene.y or inexpediency of the road. When he has determined upon tlie expediency ot forming a new road, in what manner are the funds obtained, first in the seigneuries, and secondly out of the seigneuries, in the townships ? — The givuid-voyer orders each individual proprietor to contribute so many days work, or such a proportion of labour; (or to make bridges, wi.en it shall le required to make bridges.) The individuals are pointed out in the proces verbal wlio r the piirpose ? — No ftinds arc amlgaed ; it is done by th« Samuet date, proprietors, who work ill th«prop<»rli«»is that he ord«'r8. ... K-quire. Both ia the sei^fiuniries and in the towtishi|>8 ? — Both in the soifjneiirios ami in the t ''' ^ I towiwliips the work is done iu the proportions ordered hy the jTraiul vo\ er. * *^"y "*''^8» ' l8 that nroportion accordiujf to tlie extent of the iudividuiil property through which [the road is to jfo ? — The grand voyer, doubtless, iu the perfomiaude of \\\* duty, on" I deavonrs to inake each contribute to the road in proportion as he shall heiietit Iroin it. Do you mean to say that the authority of the g-rund voyer is aI»solute ov<>r the pro- portion that eai^h person is to contribute to the expense oi the road ? — It may be con- I sidered that much is left to his discretion. Docs he act under any law ? — lie acts under a law, but the law does not always point out what labour ho shall obliffe each iadividual to pciforni, further than that it shall be done as equitably as possible, in reference to the deg'ree of benclit that the person shall re«:eive from the rojia and his extent of ground. Docs this system of the jfraud vo} ers <(ive satisfaction in the Province ? — I believe that the system is satisfactory enou<;h in the sei^rneuries, but it is not satlsiai^tory, if 1 may , i judire from what I have heard, throUjEfh the towttships. ". You say considerable sums of money were voted in 1816 and 1817 ; do you know the '' amount of those sums? — 1 believe, by reference to a paper, I shall be able to state that* It was between .£8,000 and i:9,000 iu 1815 and about £j.\»,000 in 1817. Is it a system that occasions complaints on the part of the townships? — It does, undoubtedly. To what piu*po8es were the suras that were voted in certain ycirs appropriated, and what rendered them nejiessary, inasraut^h as it appears that the people tneinselves have to make the roads? — Their labour in various parts of the country would not have been sutru-icnt, owinjf to the distance of the settlements, the lenjyth of the roads, and other ••auses. The assistance that the Lej^slature pave niijfht, in a trillinjy degree, be intended to supply that deficiency. But the money I believe was chiefly expended upon roads iu the seigneuries. It was iiyudiciously appropriated for local, ratl.er t!ian for general pur- poses, for towns and old settled places ratlier tlian for new setthmients. \' Why is this syiStem satisfactory in the seigneuries, and not in the townships ? — Thtf power of the grand voyer, and the mode of obliem out, till the inliabitants were enabled to do it. Are the Committee to undei-stand from wl.at you have stated that it is more difficult to keep up good roads and good communications in the way in which tiie townships are laid out, than it is in t!.e wav in wliich the seigneuries are laid out ?-<^It is far more lUificult to get t'e roads originally made, as well as to keep tliem up. You ssiid t at t!i0 Legislature, till 1817, had liberally providea for the roads of the province, and t' at since tliat time tliey have been inadequately provided for^* — What 1 , said was, t' at t'.iere Had been no provision tliat I recollected, except about lOOO/. during t'lc space of 25 years, from 1791 to 1815; theniii 1815 and 1817 there were con* Kiderahle sums, by an a(!t of tie Legislature, ordered to be employed in the improve- ment of internal commni\ications ; and since that period, I believe, t ere have been only about 3000/. devoted to t' at purpose. To what do you attribute the Legislature giving less since 1817 tVan it did before ?— - I do not recollect the causes tliat I I'ave heard assigned for it at present. Since the yeai* 1817, have any Appropriation bills for roads been passed by either "branch of t!te Legislature, which i:ave not received the sanction of the otl'.er ? — I cannot state whet' er there was or was not. Did you consider t!:e want of communication in tlie townships as one of tbe grierances you wei*e to represent. — I did, <;ertainly. To what did you attribute that want of communication, and what were the suggestions you had to offer for t!ie remedy of it? — Undoubtedly, one of tl e reasons to which the difficulties of communication, as well as many otiier difficulties under w..ich the townships labour, I have generally heard ascribed to an indisposition on tl.e part of the Provincial House of Assembly, to give encouragement to such settlements: that I have very often hoju'd assigned as one of the reajsons ; it is by many believed to be a reason. Have there been any proposals made in the Legislature to appropriate funds for the im- provement of t'le internal communication in the townsliips since tiie year 1817 ? — There nave ; and I t'ink t at there may have been sums to the amount of about ^3000 appro- priittcd for roads, of wf improving t'le internal communications ? — Yts, in his speeciies of messa- ^ g«*s, I J*elieve, frequentlv. .- ) •. • Wha* .f. - . ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 1.^ What notice lias been taken of t^at recommendation ? — As I said before, not boiufi^ » Samud (iuU, icmber of the LegtsUtuie, I cannot take upon me to state; it is considered timt the pro- ^K^jmrc. pccdiiigs that ougiit to have been adopted in those particiilnrs were neglected. T^~'^iH5i7^ i Will you state what proceedinjirs you think ouffl>t to hav«» l»««t»n adopfwl ? — I considoi" * ''' Uiat the law ought to have been altered, so as to adapt if to the situation of the townsliipN. .^ , \ Wh)it law V — The law that now exists in the province regarding roads, uamc'y, tiie id of the 36th of Geo. the 3d. Is that impression in the townships general among the English settlers, that if somo nrincipal lines of communication were made there would be great increased facility to thet formation of settlements in tho&e townships ? — There cannot be any doubt of it. Is it the impression that it is in order to prevent such settlements that difficulties are [thrown in the way oi torming such roads? — It is believed so by a groat many. f You have stated other grievances which you were desirous to represent, bearing I ard [upon the British settlers in tlie townships ; what are titose grievances V — I might perhaps loner, as a more succinct mode of pointing them out, a petition that was drawn up and [signed by upwards of 10,000 persons at the time that they prayed, in order to obtaiu re- jlief from these difficulties, for the union. The petition that was drawn up by thorn con- itained what were considered generally amongst them as their grievances; it would be I shorter, therefore, to read them from this petition than to state them in any other manner. What is the date of that petition? — It was transmitted from the townships in I8'^3. Do you conceive that that is a fair statement of what is jrenerally coniplnined of? — I do believe it to be a fair statement ; it is entitled tlie petition from the iuhabit^ints of British > birtli and descent in Durham, Staubridgc, and so on, enumerating a groat nuuiber of them in Lower Canada. ^ , [ The witness delivered in a copy qf the petition, which was read.] With respect to what is tliere mentioned, I have only to state that I do not know any alteration in the condition of the townshins, except only that there has been for a certain portion of their number a court establishea, wliich decides causes of a very limited amoiuit; that however affects only a portion of the townships comprised in what is called the infe- rior district of St. Francis. By whom has that court been established ? — It was established by the Legislature. I bo-" jicve that His Excellency recommended the establishment of a court there, and the Le- gislature established it ; it is under a temporary act, however, which exnires next year. Under the Act of 1791, permission was given to any person who aesircd it, to have - his property granted to him in free and common soccagc out of the seigneuries ? — Yes. Is it under that Act that the townships have arisen ?— I consider that without that Act it would have been equally competent to the Government to have establislied the townships. Is not all tlic land in the townships held in free and common soccage ?-— It is; but I con- ceive that that was a tenure that was established from the very commencement of Canada becoming an Englisit colony. In the year 1763, His Majesty's proclamation promised to , all his subjects, both in England and in the Colonies, the benefit of the laws of England, I if they Mould go to Canada. I At what time was land first granted in free and conunon soccage in Canada ? — I believe I it was so granted in few years after the conquest. * Is all tlie land in tlie townships held in free and common soccage ? — All. - , Will you describe the position of the land ? — The seigneuries constitute a narrow tract ' of land on both sides of the river St. Lawrence, of varying breadth from ten to forty miles. In the rear of those seigneuries, in the province of Lower Canada, the townships have been granted since 1791. Have the goodness to state, supposing the course of the river to be east and west, how ,, far to the eastward or towards the mouth of the river the seigneuries extend ? — They ex. tend in a connected line to the Mai Bay River on the north side, and to Dc Peiras or Me- tis on the other «ide of the river. There are some detached seigneuries even beyond tbesa on each side of tlie river. ' . - Attd westward they extend to Upper Canada ?— They do, J Are It MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOIE SELECT COMMITTEE KM|iiiri'. fi >i n»lr*. noitiilation. , , . • • i «• • _ . I» the result of that division, that some of the rountien ronnwtinff excluHively of seiffnen- ried, are of very Nninll dimensions, and that other counties consistmg principally ol town- shiitH are of verv frreat extent?— Yes. . ^ . • o on 41 Nume sonic of the counties of small extent consisting of seijfneiiries I'—l here arc the county of fSurrey and the county of Kent ; the county of Buckiiufhain, I suppose, is equal in extent to a doaeii of both' those counties. Does the county of liuckinjchara return two memhera ?— It returns only two memliers. Tlu-re are some seipneuries in the county of Buckinjfhani, hut its principal extent consists of tow nship lauds. There is the county of Northumberiand, w hich extends Irom the bt. Lawrence to the lludsou's Day territories, and is iniual in extent to a kingdom. Is not that an extent of wilderness V — It is ot present chiefly so. Not laid out in townships? — No. Does the county of Kent, or the county of Surrey, though hiimII in point of extent, possess a larger population at this moment than the county of Buckingham ?— 1 take it that tlie county ot Buckingham possesses a far larger population than either of tlose. There w«w a census of tiie population taken in 1H25. In what manner was it taken ; m •counties or districts V — It was tiie population of tlie counties, I believe. Have you tliat document by you y — I I'ave not. Have you it in England ? — I think I can get it. If in the townsliips any individual lias a suit at law, or any business at the county town, what facility has he of communicating it : are there direct roads to the county town V — We have no county courts tliere ; the courts are all district courts. Where are tlie district courts held ? — At Montreal and Three Rivers, and Quebec. Is there no court at all held in the counties V — We have no courts held in the counties ; we liad the country divided into counties for the purpose of sending representatives ; it is the old division that was made in 1791. Wliere is the place of election in each county ? — It is a place appointed by the Legis- lature ; I do not recollect the names of each. Eacli county lias a place of election within itself ? — It has a place or places. And tliey are all within the seigucuriei V — Tiiey are, except perhaps at Oasp^. Have any petitions been presented from the inttabitants or the townships to the Legisla- ture to introduce in C'le townships British courts and British jurisdiction^ — I believe there have many for tlic establis' ment of courts. Wiiat reception have tiiey met with ? — I understand that tliey have been treated with neglect ; that they have never been attended to at all except as to the temporary act for St. Francis. Docs it consist with your knowledge that applications have been made for the registra- tion of freeholders and deeds ? — Residing always at Montreal, and the Legislature being held at Quebec, it is difficult to say tliat it consists with my personal know ledge ; biitl understand and believe that that is tie case, that applications have been made repeatedly to the Colonial Legislature for register offices. Is tl.cre much inconvenience experienced from the want of registers in the townships ? Very great indeed ; it is considered as essential to the secutity of property, where along chain of titles cannot be given (as is the case in a new country), that a person shall be able toascertiiin wheti.er he who was formerly proprietor of tlie land las disposed of it ante- riorly or not, and whether lie can give a good title. Are there any civil courts in the towns) ips other tlan t'oso which are in the scigneu- ries formed under the Frencli system ? — None, except in the inferior district of St. Fran- cis, which is a district comprising a certain number of tonnships, and established recently, since the signing of t!ie petition that I produced. Supposing an inhabitant of a tonnslup to sue another inhabitant upon aquestion of civil property, must he bring his action iuti.e French courts ?— He must briujr his action in >rr — '" -L- -i? 1-— » I the French courts of law. And Sanutei Cal«, {■Squirt. '■-,,,- 8 May, 18U8. i: I'll ■:!i' H MINtlTES OF EVIDRNCE DEFORE SELECT (OMMITTEn Aniori> Im noluw to provmit titrir > Mottitiff forth tl'.oir chum in Fn lo^nil hui^uiifro uf tlio mHU ; but tlicUw that iH to duU>rnrino t'lu claiin \h Fronvli, ifonemllv Np«>uUinK. How dooa tho French hiw u|i|)iv to thu lund hold in free and ronniion Hoccnfft* ? — Af pro- nont it dooH not apply to t' n huuf hohl in frcu nntiii by what luw iH it adni nisteri'd ? — It could only be administered in confoiitiity to the Imperial KtatutoR nnder the En^fliNh law. By « hat conrt* y — It must bo adminiMtorod i>v the oourtH that now exint, or not ho ad- miniHtered at all ; it muht be adminiiitercd hy the courts of Montreal, (Quebec, and Three HivcK. Are not tho judges mostly Eugliah ? — They are; there are however tl reo ('auadinn judf^es. Are the chief justices hofli or either of them Fnjjliiihmen ?— I believe that the chief J4iiiticc8 of the pruviuue ig from Miissoehuasctts, aud I believe the chief justice of Mou- treal is a Scotcliman. What law ect to those lands held according to the custom of Paris, and t!;ose lands held in free and com- mon soccage ? — Precisely tlie same. Are those gentlemen all Englisli lawyers ? — No. Are they French lawyers ? — -Tliose judges ai*e French lawyers. There are some French Canadians, but the majority of them are Englishmen ; the law t!iey cliicfly administer, however, is the French law, that being the law of tie country Is not the Frendh law, the law of tlie country, applicable to all the lands and to all th« occupiers of tlioso lauds in tlie English) townships, altliougli tlie system of seigneuries does not prevail as to the tenure of the lands ; aud a hat are mar<'iage rights ?-<^The British statute, called t' e Tenures Act, must have put tiiat question at rest ; and it is expressly declared in tl;at statute, that tiie Frenoti law cannot apply to lands granted iu free and common soccage. Marriage establishes, unless there be some stipulation to the contrary by previous marriage coutra(;t, two rights, amongst others, one of which is called dower, and the other commuitaute. The doner differs in some measure from tlic English law of dower, as well as far as regards tlie quan- tum of land, asalsoas far as regards tiiefurtlier disposition of the property ; it consists of half the real property belonging to the husband, eit or of his own acquisition orotlerwise, at the time he married, aud also of half the real property tl^at may come to him by in- heritance during the time of the nian-iagc. The dower belongs malienably to the children of the marriage; the widow is only entitled to tie fruits and tbe revenues of it during her life ; and it there be no marriage contracts all property is subject eitiier to do^er or communaute. Do you mean allproperty, both of Canadians and of settlers, in the townships? — No, I do not mean tlmt all the settlers iu the townships are liable to both those rights ; but a - , . - portion II ' ON TIIF. fiVIL noVF:RNME*?T OF CaNaDA. id i>o (Jaundinii H May, IH28. |ti»rtioii oft'ipir puipfrtv is lialileto oiipof t'lORo rlffJit*. t'u» rifjlit of oommiin.tiiti'- ;ftt l««n*it !^iiitN wltif'i it «oiil«l Im> v«'r» tIeHinililf to linvp »rttl«>H. Kiquirc. DtM's \our olwrrvatioiiPxtiMul to liot'i ri'ul and |»pr»(Mial propcrt* i' — A «lowt'r in of real ' |iro|H>rtv only ; a coinnitinaiiti* ronNints of imm-moiuiI iw well an real proptTty. I'oc.4 it apply •>(|iiall>, ax tliooasv nuiy hr, iindorthe lik<> ciri'uiiistann*!*, tnthp En{;liH'i Ni'ttlcr ill tl'.<> toMiiship, ns it dot's to t >« Canadian in the Nei;fn dower ronMititH of r<>al propprty ; hut witli rt'iipird to t!ic conininnantt', it in hold l»y Honio t'lat t'lat cxistH in t'u« towns lipf', oxcopt where roul property is cont-erned. T.ie comintinnnte is composed partly of personal and partly of real properit ; it is composed of all the personal pr«»|»orty ana the real protierty that is not linhle to dot«er. The wifv is entitled to «)ne half the conimiinaute, t'liit is, one half of the entire personal property of the hiislmnd, and (me half of the real property which he hoM acquired dnrinjr hiH marriage. LXies thin ifo to th»! heirs of the wife 'f — If the wife dies hcfore the huAhnnd, the children I «« ill l)« entitled to her share of the commnnante ; tliot is, to one half of it instantly upon her death, even «lthoii'(h the husband acquired the whole of thin communaute ; and t^ie ronsequeiicu is, very treqiieiitly, lantiuits between parouUi and children; I have kironn very often c'lildren brin^injjf siiitH a^innt tlieir parentn. S(ipp(me t'lc cSildren die before t •« wife, upon t'lo death of the wife does the property po to tie holn* of t'le c'lildreiT "r of the wife ? — If there wore ^Tand-children living it would ffo to t!iein ; but supposing i ) v«'ifo to die without havinj; had children, it would eo to her licint, althou((ii they w«:> u strangers to the husband ; so t*iat, suppoKingf the wife di«>', if there !i(\s bev>n no previous marriage contract, her relations can claim from t^e husbiuid one half of the fi'uitii of his labour, although the wife might never hare brougtit him any t'liiig. Would a previons marriage contract pleaded in the French courts bar the right of rora- iiuiuautu ? — Undoubtedly the right of communaut<^ would be destroyed if ti'ere were a previous marriage contract setting it aside ; but in order to make a previous marriage contract, it is necessary to have some idea of the law, and most Englislmieu who cumc to that country know very little about that. Even in the cose where a nuuriage contract did not subsist, conld the hnsband have power to alter that disposition by will, or does the power only apply to cases where ti.e party lias died intestate, and there I'as been no marriiigo contract ? — I do not conceive that the iiusband would hare arig'tit to dispose of the communaut6 by it ill ; he can spend it, or ho can dispose of it while he lives, but not by will, as I conceive. You have stated tliat it is undecided in tlie country whether this commnnant6 does ap- ^ly always to English settlers in the Townships ; has the question ever been brought he- fore t'le courts ?— I have no knowledge my se if if its having been brougIitfon\ard coutni- dictorilv. 1 do not know that any instance . .\ists of its having been decided where the opposition was made upon the ground tl.at the law did not ap])lv. The courts, of course, it the objection 1>c not taken, would make it apply ; but I do not know that it has been ob- jected to, and decided formally upon objectioii. Wliat is the appeal from the courts of Canada upon the French law ? — The appeal is first to the Court of Appeals at Quebec, and next to the King in Conncil here. Have there been appeals to the King in Council upon the construction of the French law in the seigneuries ?— In some cases. i. f i m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Samuel Gnk, J; .squire. 13 A lay, 1828. Martis, 13 ». die MaiJ, 1828. Sapiuel Gale, Esq. ngain culled in ; and Exununo<1. When you were last before tie Committee you placed before tliema Petition, nunie> rouNly Hiffned bv tlio InliabitautwoftietownshipB in Lo^er Ciuiada ; it is stated in tl at pe- tition, tlint " the tow usiiips are peopled bv persons wl o inliabit lands jjranted under tu Dritisb tenure of free and conunou soccajje, wlo liave a Protestant ClerH^y, for «l ose maintenance a portion of tliose lands are set anart, and «bo, notwitll^'tandin^^ aresulyect to Fiench laws, of which they know nothing.' Accordinj? to the statute law w bidi jh in force in Canada, are not the persons who live in the to"nNhii»s subject to the En{,'lish rivil law, 08 well as the Enjflish criminal law ?— I have heard some le<;al charaf^ters state that they consider the tov« uiihips entitled to the Enjrlish civil law in tola ; 1 have heard others deny the position. The follo«injf jue some of the alterations of tlie law in the c(don\ ; in the first instiuuic, by His Majesty's prodamation, in the year XHV.i, it was declared that «// his subjects resortinif to Canada should bo entitled to the benefit of the la" s of his Realm of Endand ; the statute of 177-t bestowed the French laws upon the seij^neuries, but excepted from the operation of those la«8 the rest of the province granted or to be granted insoccoi^e, the tenure of the to"nshii)s. The Enjflish laws were acted upon, as it has been stated, from 1763 to 177+ ; those who maintain that tlie English hiwsare now fully in force in the townships, found themselves upon the proclamation, the practice for eleven years after, and the exception in the statute of 1774<. What does the statute of 1774- provide in that respect ?— After haviujar introduced into the scipneuries tlie body of Freuc.i law, wl.icli vas assumed by the statute to be tlie esta- blishment of a law not then existing: •» Canada, it declares tiat nothing in that Act shall extend or bo construed to extend to lands granted or to be granted under tlie English te- nure, that is, in free and common soccagc. IsnottI at i.eld distinctly to limit the operation of tl;e French law to the seigneurieii and tlie inbabitAuti tliereof ?— It is, by some lega' c! aracters. Upon what grounds is it held by oti er persons tiat t!ie French law las any effect upon the townships ? — Tliere are some who deny that the English laws, except the criminal, were ever legally introduced into Low cr Canada, either antecedently to tlie statute of 1774, or by the provisions of that statute. Do they deny that the statute of 1 774, has any effect or power within the Canadas? Their conclusion amounts totliat, as far as regards the exceptions of that statute respect- ing the English civil law for the townships. They deny that the English lawn in civil matters, as before mentioned, were legally introduced into Canada, and therefore they hold that the Act of 1774, in so far as it purports to introduce the French laws into tlo seigneuries, was a mere work of supererogation, since legally, acx'ording to them, the French laws wer^ in force in the seigneuries before and until tlie Act of 1774; and' as a consequence, they maintain that the exception in that Act, declaring that notliing contain- ed therein shall extend or be construed to extend to lands in free and common soccage can produce no effect, inasmuch as the Fremdi laws were then in force, instead of owing their existence to that Act. Had the Act established the English laws by words of posil tive enactment, instead of endeavouring to do so by voids of exception, they admit that the English laws would be in force in the townships. It was from such legal subtleties that the tow nships were in danger of being deprived of the advantage of laws nhich the Act iutcudcd to give them. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF (J AN A DA. i\ reduced into Samuel Gfih; K.>ith n small jurisdiction in a certain part of the towiisliips, a jnrisdiirtion to tlie amount of 201., and in that Act there are expressions used wliereby it would be concluded that tho French laws «ere assumed to operate in the townships. Wliere is t!iat court lield ? — Tr.at court, I believe, is held in Slierbrooke. i'an \ou stiitc anv otl'T Act from wliic'i it ma> be inferred tliat it is held bv the mern- bers of the Assemblv that tlie French law is in force in tlie towns'iips, not vithstandiiiji^ t !C Act of 177 !• ? — I do not recidlect at t lis moment any Act t!iat has been passed, but [ tliink t'ere may be, and I believe tliat various bills which have ptussed tlie Assembly would show that such was their inteii>retation. Can >oii refer to any tliiiicleadiii<; persons amonrrst tlie Canadians, tliat t..e provisions of tht Act of n?* are not of authority, and oujifht not to prevail in Lower Canada V — [ do not nt tlie moment recollect any thiuff furtiier than t'le mere general opinions expressed in c(mversationby those pentlemeu ; thev would hardly find fault with the provisions oftluit Act, where they confirmed or re-resentation. Has any thing been done in consequence of those petitions praying for courts?— I do not know any thing further than that at a very recent period, in 18ij;J, a court was esta- blished, with a small jurisdiction of 20/. iu personal cases, over a small portion of tho townships. What portion of the townships have acceas to this court ?— I believe it is chiefly that jiortion of the townships situate within that i»art of th« county of Buckingham which ii* ill the district of tho Three-Rivers. 1« mir 1 t' Ili ii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE :! m li W ly w ' ;i Samufl Gale ^' *^*** court distinctly limited to that district ? — It is ; and the jurdisdiotion does not Esquire. ' extend beyond 20 /., nor beyond 10/. without appeal; so that it is a trifling jnrisdiction. r— — * » Who is appointed jndpe of it? — Mr. Fletcher. 13 May 1828. Is he an English lawyer ? — He is. A native of Britain? — A native of Britain, as I understand ; and I believe he was a practitioner at the bar in London. Are the English laws administered in that court ? — I have not been there, and as tliere are no reports of adjudged cases, I do not know; but I presume that liis decisions in those personal cases are all under the French law, excepting in so far as it may have been modihcd by provincial statutes. Did not tlie House of Assembly pass a bill, introducing the trial by jury in civil cases ? — After several judicature bills had been previously passed by the Legislative Council, the Assembly pjjssed ajudicature bill, wherein trials by jury, of a new des- cription, were indeed introduced, but wherein also trials by jury cf a previous descrip- tion were abolisNed; — a bill which, in my opinion, when 1 formeily looked into its enactments, might have been rightly considered as one that it would be impossible to sanction and proceed upon without injury to the country. Wliat was the nature of t.'ie injury apprehended ? — It was not considered to be fit for the state of th« province. Do you know on what particuLor grounds that opinion vas entertained? — I do not recollect exactly now ; it is long since I have looked at it. The bill appeared to provide a cumbrous and difficult system. In some civil cases it established juries, indeed, whose members might be less qualified for their office, but in v. horn unanimity was required, instead of juries as now established, who might be better qualified, and ot" whom nine might return a verdict. Its operation would have excluded divers to ^Miships whose in- habitants belonged to the jurisdiction, and might have been parties to the suit, from fur- nishing jurors. It left untouched the main evil of the present system, in not forming a sufficient tribunal to give certainty and uniformity to the jurisprudence of the country, which, as it has not, as to French laws, the perpetnal corrective of a body of Kving expounders in the parent state, must require more especially an able and permanent appel- late tribunal in the country. Have you the bill ? — The bill is in my possession. ' Then that was an approximation to the English law which passed in the House of As- - ** semblyi and was rejected by the Governor and the Legislative Council ? — I do not know whether it ever went before the Governor; but I believe it was not rejected upon the gi'ound of its apnroximsttion to the English law. Did the Legislative Coumul ever introduce or originate a bill pin-porting to be an amendment of this bill ? — They passed, during several sessions, a bill for the establish- ment of a diflferent judicature, since it is admitted, on all hands, that the judicature at present existing in Lower-Canada is in a very defective state. The first bills that were passed for the amendment of the judicature were passed during several siiccessive yeai-s in the Legislative Council, as I understand. Had that judicature bill brought in in the Assembly reference to the whole province, with one uniform operation, or had it reference to a distinct operation in the townships? — It had, I believe, reference to one uniform operation in the townships and in th« seigneuries. Can you furnish the Committee with copies of the bills to which you have alluded? — I will produce copies of some of them. Are the contracts and legal instruments which are executed by the inhabitants of the townships, altliough living under the English la^v, and holding land in iree and common soccage, in English forms or in French forms? — I do not reside there, and I cannot state the practice there now. Vt hat is the mode of conveyance ? — The mode of conveyance I know frequently lias boeu according to the Frenc'i form. But I always considered that illegal, even hiefore the Canada Tenure Act was ptvised in England, and therefore whenever 1 had any thing to do witli conveyances I alv.ays used to" have them executed in the English form. • What fonn ? — (jenerally lease and release. How could they apply the Canadian form of conveyance to the t«nure in free and com- mon irlil ■ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. elicve lie was nay have been d to be fit for ; alluded ?— -M [mon soccaffo? — They used to ffO to a notary just as thoy would do with respect to land* snmvel Oi^f liii \':v. seiffiienries, and-nfet the notary to pass what is called an Act, and the notary J^quire. Ivould t crcaftcr lavo to miike a copy uutlor his sitfnature, which, if it liad concerned .^ — ^ * — , (landK in the seifrneurios, would have been a suflicient deed, but 1 do not consider that it 13 Way 18^8. [would liavo been a sufficient deed under the Eujjrlis'i laws. Is there not one of the fomis of tenure under tie French laws, which is almost the I same thinjj as free and common socoan-e in effect i* — I conceive not; there is one that is I called //y/z/c «/f«, but t'l.it is of two kinds ;/r«nc aleu noble and franc aleu roturier ; the franc aleu noble is a kind of seigneury, with many conditions and rijflits gfenerally [attached to sciwneurios, and attlie same time it would be, as well as the franc aleu rotit' rier, under all the liabilities to the French law in other particulars, such as dower and cutumiinaute, and notarial mortn^ajjes, which the lands in the seigneurics are subject to. Do you consider tnat they do not resemble free and common soccag'e? — No ; they are subject to a variety of liabilities, being' French tenures, to which such English tenure is not subject. If an Englishman die in Quebec intestate, possessed only of personal property, ac- cording to what law would t! at property be distributed ? — Of course, according to the Frenc'j law, as to all Englisfimen domiciled in the seigneuries; and if it werfc in the the townsliips, it is maintained by a part of t!ie inhabitants of Lower-Canada that there . too it would be distributed under "the French law; but it is held by another part of the subjects in Canada, t'lat is the English, that it ought to be distributed according to the Enoint; for my o"'n part I should conceive, as the law now stands, that the husband in such case vould not have a riglit to dispose of all iiis personal property ; that he could not dispose of t at part whicli belong to bis wife, wiio is entitled to the coniniuiinnlc. Will you state your reasons for that opinion ? — During bis life the husband can sell and dispose of the property constituting th.e commwinute, but at iiis deat i tlie wife Itecomcs invested with t'e exercise of her pre-existing riglit to one half of it ; and alt ough the la'v authorizes t'e husband, as master of the t:ominnnmitc, inter vivos, and using his vufe's riglits as well as Ins o»n, to dispose of all the property that belongs U> {\w communiiute, one would hardly construe that t'lat authority would extend to the testamentary be'8 and orp'^ans, « lose money liad been lent upon mortgage, deprived of their all. There is scarcely a term in any of t'le courts tiat passes witiiout numbers of t'-ose frauds being broug' t to lig' t. Do you understand tHat t!. is system v it: i regard to mortgages is one t'at necessarily springs out of the establishment of the French law ; do you understand that it prevails so in France, or does it depend upon local statutes ? — All those laws under wliicli the notarial mortgages are effected are derived from the custom of Paris, or through French institutions. In Frauce, however, frauds of this description might not lave been so frequently practised, because t ere was a criminal law that subjected ti ose who thus imposed upon others to punishment. This criminal law has not existed in Lower- Canada since the acquisition ot the country by the English, because tl.e English criminal law was substituted in lieu of the French. But tliat provision of the French law was by no means adequate to prevent frauds ; it might indeed after the commission of such offences punish the individuals who might be guilty of them, but tlie object that is par- ticularly desirable is to prevent them altogether, w. ich might be done by havuig registers. Does the mode of conveyance y6u hav« mentioned apply to noble holdings ? — To all lands in seignopal Canada. In the House of Assembly has any member ever introduced a bill for the purpose of amending this state of the law wit:.iii your knowledge ? — Yes, a bill was introduced into the House of Assembly for the establishment of register ofKces. A bill was also intro- duced, and actually passed, in the Legislative Council for that piu*pose for the town- ships ; but the bill that was introduced into the Assembly was, I believe, a general bill for tho establisbioeat of register ofl^ces, and this bill fell through in the Assembly. - . Wag D I K lii'; 'i^'i^i! 11 ::; i'«i ' i i-- .t! !|llr '' 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ft'imiirl Ciile ^^f^ •* lost by a larg-t* majority? — I do not recollect hjr «hat majority; but I know lOMviiri'. ' that 80iut> of tlie ns-tsoiiK assijfiiod for rrjectini^ the bill, piiblislied in a speech as pronounced , * ^b«fore t 'e AHsenibly, were, that "the relinfiouH principles and the liabits ot the people 13 Rliy I's'js " were adv» rs'.> to tiu' practice of Icndinjf njono}' iijion interest;" and "that it would " enable the few t at ' ad money to do injury to the many t'at were needy " And it wa.s asked "w et er it «ould not be bettor for f e riche an. matter that rendered it impossible to go on witii the public business ? — I do jiot know whether it was in consermence of the sudden prorogation of Parliament ; but I beliere there ha> e been snLsci|neut sessions in which the matter might have been taken np had it been ibonghtfit. It was about a year ago that the Assembly rejected their own registry bill. lu what year was it that those bills passed the Legislative Council ? — I think that the register bill was p.vssed in the Legislative Council in 1820, but I am not quite certain whether it was in 18-^5 or 1826. ft had been petitioned for, however, a number of times tluring several years. Was it subsequently to the time M-hen Sir Francis Burton was provisionally adminis- tering the (lovernmont ? — I cannot recollect Mhether it was in that j eai* or after. Is it jonr opinion that the civil law of Lower Canada could be materially altered with- out extensiveh aflecting existing interests in that Province? — I should conceive that the j)le out of the countiy : the <: cannot think of settling and laying out money in the pur- < base of land, where, after having possessed the land for a number of \ ears, they may find a.i i" dividual with a mortgage upon it, which divests them of their right. >\ hat effect lijvs it upon the interest of money lent upon mortgage ? — It has this effect, that it is generally very dilUcult, and that there is often no such thing as getting it upon mortgage ; and that keeps bsujk the improvement of the country ; because if money can- not be borrowed upon the credit of laud, there must be a gi-eat deficiency of requisite capi- tal ;o be employ ed in its improvement. Are soua^are of the existence of any estates which include lands in the seigneuries juid also in the towiifchi))H, beloii<;ing to the same individual, bordering upon each other ? — There are several individuals M'ho possess property both in the seigneuries and in the townsliiiis borderir.g upon each other. According to what form does bind pass from one person to another in the townships ?— At present I believe none would transfer except under English forms. Heretofore, too, most pruden j -, . .):;s ut'. , »t(M* ni)dt>r thelTench forms. Is tluit ., [ji'stty M»ll established at present within the townships? — Not having • been thevv < N;jt..notsa> from personal observation, but I have no doubt t)f it. It must Im so, i I'iiik, lUit^^ been taken pjected their link that the juite certain nber of times illy admiuis- fter. altered with- eive that the he rights of verj^ uncer- corae from quit Lower It drives in the pur- e}' majf find ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF cXnaDA. «7 e. this effect, ig it upon louey can- uisite capi- ieigneuries I other ?— land in the pships ?— )forc, too, among a iot having ttfit. U ■ships ?— bbtaia it * but a» there «n» no register offiws there, the inhKbitants, even in the to>vn- ■' ' " '■ " * ' * IJOS would OCCU- 5.1 (;iu«-/ G;i(c, Ksqiiirr. lejf coul ob'.aiu hips, althuii^h not .mibj^tt to all the diriiicultios that R.'i.riHMiriiil iuort;,'!i!;os jon/iiuiBt find it cxlieraelj' d tlicnU to lM)rrow nion«'y njion :ju)rt;;;i;>c. li'iin individual purcliiwes au estate within the towiisbips, docs tbo title that is made ^ t for him show or profess to show the previous trausf.'rs that have takon pliu;e of thati' May, ropti'ti, or does it sbow tlse orij^iial titi« of the propcrt* ? — Tlicre are not the means of ivinij a loii;? chain of titles to lands in the townships, siirhiis would st-tMin' the )iurc1ia- isr iu bispropert-, or enable him to know that be was sccnn'. In Ei»vl;iii(! a l4>n'r rhain f titles ma^ bo rliaps wo hundi-ed, or other small portion at a time, it is imjiossilde that the old titles can <;o »-ith the new ; it is impossible that, unless there are reufister oHivos, it slionlil bo known bat be luis not previously transferred the same land to somel)olv else ; ami, for tliese Old other reasons, they desire rejf istcr ottiees i'j the townships, njion ])rincipl(!S rcsemblini^ l")se upon which the. are jjonerally established over the rest of America. According to what forms is property distributed by will y — A will nia< be made now, nd before the (Janada Tenures Act it might have been ma:le accord lug to the French or cording to the English forms. Which practice prevails ? — I believe it is tlie gcnenJ practice to make their wills accord- n^'to the English form among the English^inhabitants. %\ the case of intestacy, is property in the townships distributed according to tho u'flish law ; does the right of primogeniture prevail ? — I conceive that it docs, in landed property. Docs the right of dower prevail in the siune form and to the same extent as in England ? Happily tliat right is now precisely the same in the townships as it is in England. The Committee pel ceive in the petition that reference is made to a bill which the Le- islative Council passed in the session of 1 8"ii>, for the purpose of introducing into the ownships the English kw of dower and conveyance, and making incumbrances special, nd establishing public offices for the registration of all mutations of real property, and of 11 mortgages on the same. Was that bill tlirown out by the Assembly ? — It was not asscd. How far has the Canada Tenures Act passed by the Imperial Parliament supplied the rovisious of that bill ? — It has estiiblished all with the exception of the register. With respect to the mode of borrowing money in the townships, do you deliver up the Id titles when the conveyance is by lease and release, as is done in this country ? — Tho itles are all new tliere. The titles sometimes include a viust deal more than the vendor arts with, and r tho protluction of the title-deeds, and tluit s no oil jection to any title in this country ? — Vou have one security in this country that " ' uifortuiiately could not be expected to exist iu a new country, you have the character of he individuals {)ossessed of large property, yoo have their great wealth as a security, ^hcre the sellers of land are often those that perhaps sell their all when they sella small act ; at any rate tlwjre is a universal opinion which is acted upon, (and practice has pro- cd it to be just), that without registration it is impossible to ascertain whether the title liUid be good or not, or whether the incumbrances upon land are secure or not. Since th% passing of the Canada Tenures Act, has the question of the establishment of cgiitti'ation offices been again mooted iu either house ? — I believe it is since that period 'lat it has been rejected in the Assembly. Have the English population in Lower Canada any desire to disturb the routine of w, or to have the customs of tho French Canadians in the seigneuries changed r* — No. the French Canadians be desirous to maintain the yoke of their ancient laws in the 18'JH. seigneuries : S8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOIIB SELECT COMMITTEE ■,n! .i:i fl::!: I ii V ilii m ■1 it 'Ksniiire'. * 8ci{fncurie8, the Eiigli»h, I believe, M'ould seek no alterations there, unless what might _l_/s — \^B necessary for the security of property, or consistent witli the inclinations of the French 13 .Muvi 182». Canadians. But it is hard to impose ttiose French laws upon the remaining portion of tlie Province, when it is disagreeable, and must be disadvantageous to commerce, to im- provement, and to the mass of the inhabitants of that portion ; and would be a further violation of the pledges for the establishment of English laws soleraly given by the British (lovernnieut to all irs English sulijects, in addition to the violation of these pledges M'hich has already taken place by the Act of 1774, establishing French laws in the sci- gneuries. Do yru imagine that the feeling for the alteration of the law is universal onthe part of the population in tiie Knglish townships? — I do; there are some few deviations from the law and practice; existing in this country, that of course they would be glad of; but those are modifications that could be made in Canada afterwaids. But they would like to have the same foundation of law iu the townships that they have throughout all the rest of Ameri- ca, except Lower Canada. VN'ould they rather borrow from the amended law of the United States than from the law of England r' — They would rather borrow from the amended law of the United States, or ratiier from the amended law of the English provinces than from the law of England, be- cause of course the amen ied law is merely an adaptation of the foundation of English law to tiie state of things existing iu America. Did not a bill to allow prisoners the benefit of counsel pass the House of Assembly, and was rejected by the Legislative Council ? — I have heard of a bill of that description ; but 1 did not pay much attention to it, and I can hai'dly say whether it passed in the Assembly, or whether it passed in the Legislative Council. 1 at tliis moment merely recollect having heard some observations concerning such a bill, and should think it consistent with Justice. Amongst the persons who emigrate to the British Provinces in North America, is tlicre not a decided preference shown to settling in Upper Canada rather than Lower Canada V— I believe that it may be said tliat a decided preference is shown by the majority of English- ^ men and Scotchi^eu to settling every where rather than in Lower Cana Were any of them citisens of the United Stotos ?— Of those that arc here spoken of, none. 13 Mbjt, Ih'ja. In point of fa<;t, have not many of the citizens of the United States passed their own hounanrv, and established themselves in the province of Lower Canada ?*i— Numbers of them have. Arc not many of the lands to the south of the St. Lawrence settled by citizsns of the United States ? — A great many. Upon the Act of 1791 being passed, protrlamations were issued in Lower Canada, in conformity to instructions received from the Goveninient here, inviting the American loyalists to come and settle in the townships of Lower Cana- da, promising them grants of lands, and giving them encouragement to settle there ; and in conseiiueuce of this, numbers of old lo\ alists did come forward and make application for grants of land, and lands were granted to them ; and those who now inhabit those lands are either those loyalists themselves, or their descendants, or the persons to whom tliey have sold them. Do you mean to say that, after the separation of the two Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada in 1791, the object of which separation was to give the exclusive possessionof the Lower Province to the French Canadians, and of the Upper Province to the English set- tlers, proposals were made to encourage the scttlinn^ of Americans in Lower Canada ? — I mean that those proclamations were made after the division of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada ; and I mean to state, that it iras not and could not be the object of the sta- tute of 1791 to reserve the Province of Lower Canada to the French Canadians, inasmuch as that would have been doing for a French Colony more than Britain ever did for an En- glish colony, and inasmuch as express provisions were made of reserves for the Protestant clerg}', and other matters inconsistent with such an object ; and as also it was expressly declared by Mr. Pitt to be " his intention to assimilate the Canadians to the language, the manners, the habits, and above all, to the laws and constitution of Great Britain." He stated this expressly in Parliament at tlie time that the bill of 1791 was under dis- cussion in this country; and I am convinced that whatever nation, be it France or be it England^ shall endeavour to establish or rear up a French nation in North America, will ultimately incur the lasting enmity, not only of that branch of the great English national family which now exists independently in North America, but also of our own colonies ; since the latter would be ultimately exposed to as much injury from the existence of a French nation in North America as the United States would be. What is the present practice, are the citizens of the United States in tlie habit of settling in the Province of Lower Canada ? — They occasionally come in and make purchases of lands, but not in the same manner aa it was anticipated at the time those proclamations were issued that they would have done. Those proclamations offered them a specific encouragement, and now they would come in merely as pur<;ha8ers or settlers upon the same terms as other people ? — Yes. In point of tact, do they now come in in considerable numbers ? — 1 have not been resident in the townships for a considerable length of time, and I cannot say in what numbers they come, but many of them must be desirable settlers for a new country. Are not the best settled townships those which run along the American border ? — Tlio most populous of the townships are those. Do not they sell their produce, and get manufactures from the American side ? — They do very frequently, and in fact tisey could not do otherwise unless they were to dispense with manufactures altogether ; because there are scarcely any roads whereby they can commu- nicate with the markets in Canada during the summer ; and there are roads whereby they can communicate with the markets elsewhere, so that necessarily they are often obliged to get their supplies from America. ^ Is not the conseouence of that, that they are supplied with American manufactures, or with English manufactures, which hare paid duty to the American Government ? — I dare say that that is the case frequently. Arc they not divided from the seigneuries by large tracts of uninhabited country. — The townships nearest the seigneuries are the least inhabited. I cannot say that the townships 9re divided from the seigneuries, because they extend to them ; but that part of tliem that is fiM .30 MINUTES or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE m h I'llli Sumufl Gale '*' "*^'*'' ^^^ 8ei{(ncuric8 is ponerally uninbabltcd, and those nt a d'mtanco arjc bpst inhabited. EM|iiir«. ' I" "<*t t^iftt *''« pi'oat diffictilty that EnfjHsh Hcttlers moot with, that the Government doeH , ^not make roadH acroisH tlic unitettltKi districtH? — That is one of the dilliciiltieH certainly. IS May. 1B28. In what manner do tliey wish the fuudH to bo raised to make these roads ? — There ar« va- rions modes in which, I dare Hivy, they would be satisfied that a fund should be raised. If there was a small tax imposed n^un all lands that have been i^ranted, whether now in the hands of a1)8entee8 or others, (which I believe is the case in t^)per Canada,) to be laid out in improving the roads, I believe it would be satisfactory. IIsus tliat ever been proposed in the House of Assembly ?— I believe not ; I do not know however. Do you think there is any party that would Object to that ? — I dare say there is. Would not tiiosc persons bo the principal opponents who hold tliose tracts of country vhu'h are not at present settled ? — Some of them raiglit very probably be aiuonjifst the num- ber of the oppontMitji, I cannot say that all would. SpeaUinj;; for myself, who am an alt- Heutee and have lands there, I certainly sliould rejoice that a tux were imposed upon all the lands that I liave towards roads, provided only a similar tax were imposed upon all otiier lauds. Would not such a measure operate better than the law of escheat which was passed in the Imperial Parliament? — I do not see that one of those laws oiif^ht to jirevent the operation of the other; I think t' at both might exist with advantage at tlic same time, if ui>ou pro})er aud efficient principles. Would not such a law be more efficacious towards tlic improvement of t! e country ? — I think it would l>e more efficacious towards the improvinucnt of tlie country, if universally aud impartially carried into efl'oct, and as one absentee lioldin^ lauds I should rejoice at any such tax for tliat lairpose. YoTi have stated tliat it would be very desirable to levy a tax upon land ^renerally for tho purpose of makinjif roads of communication ; do you not consicler that it would be hi the 1 i ver. - . ■ . 4, ^ Although ON THE CIVIL OOVERNMENT OF CANADA. SI S*mnrl Gale, K.iquirc. do not know AUhoiif^ the immediate line of tlio River Richelieu in now ocotipied with ReifrnffUrioM, in ith« t-MHe of any attack Iwiii)^ made alon^ that valley, would not Canada be rendered infi- fnitcly more secure, if the country at the hack of the seif^neuriefl, now held in townHiii|m,r Im t-ro lilied with a powerful and active populution ? — I can pnly say, as I said before, that 13 May. isiia tho arms and tlie hearts of a loyal people are the best defence of a country, and the greater [their numbertj the better. Are you not of opinion, that an improvement of the law would lead to the colonization I of that part of the country which, for the (Hounds stated, you consider desirable ? — There lis no question abont it, it would be peopled witli fourfold rapidity if that were done. Ar<> you acfjuoiuted with the district of country most contiguous to the United States V Yps, I am. Are not considornblo numbers of the United States people, of tito lower class, making encruatrliments on tliut district V — That part of the country now alluded to seems a part of the country in the district of Quebec, which I am not a(;(|uainted with. Tiic question alludes to the district of Montreal '< — There is uo dispute about boundary there. Are not a 'pauper population from the United States making encroachments s» squat* tcrs, on that district '< — With respect to a pauper population, that can hardly be found iu America ; but there is a certain population that are called squatterx, who are the pioneers ' of all improvement almost every wnere througliout America; some of those undoubtedly occ;isi(mally get into Lower Canada, but not to any extent; but it will bo universally the ca«e, that where lands are not taken and improved by those that have good titles to them, they will be taken up by squatters that have uot good titles. Is not therefore a dttsirable object to people those frontier tracts with acknowledged citi- eens of their own Province ? — Undoubtedly, with persons ackno'^lcdged character or pro- perty or indnstry ; it is certainly most desirable to people them. Is not that system of intrusion by squatters constantly progressive ? — 1 do not know that there are a greater number of squatters now in Canada tnan there were 10 years ago. Do not they advance V — They generally precede the advancement of settlements ; those squatters belong to tie lirst class of pioneers, that are the first settlors iu every new dis- trict. Under the Act of 1791 was not the number of members in the House of Assembly fixed j at 50, and in the Legislative ('ouucil at 15 ? — The House of Assembly is to be uot less : than 50, and the Legislative Council not less than 15. Of what number does the Legislative Council now consist ?— Of about 28. Of what number does ttie Assembly now consist ? — Fifty. Has it remained at 50 since the proclamation of Sir Alured Clarke ? — It has. What nimiber are there of country members, and what number represent cities and [towns ? — There are 39 Members from the 21 Counties ; there are 11 Members from cities I and towns ; Montreal sends four, Quebec four. Three Rivers two, Sorel one. Was there any provision made for the gradual alteration or increase of the number of ; membei-s iu tlie House of Assembly at the time the Act of 1791 was carried into effect ? — No, there was notliing of that kind, nothing that fixed a progressive increase of the Legis- lature ; if it be desired, I can state how that progressive increase would take place on tho I other side in the vicinity of Canada. V\'hat provision has been made in Upper Canada for adapting gradually the numbers of [representatives to the increase of extent, and the increase of inhabitants in the townships las they become gradually settled ? — I have been told there are certain territorial divisions, I some of pretty nearly similar extent, which when they attain a certain degree of population [are entitled to send one member, and when they have a greater degree of population, they [luav scud two, and not increase after that unless subdivided. I In Miiat way has that been provided for, is it by an Act of the British Parliament ?-^ [By Act of the Provincial Parliament, as I understand. Will you state as far as you can what provision is made in the United States for pro« Ividing representatives for such barren countries as they become gradually inhabited ?— • I In the state of Vermont, which adjoins Lower (^anada, and by which Lower Canada is jciuefly bounded upon the south, the country is divided into sections of equal extent, which I I believe they call towns or townships ; each one of those sections sends a representative, lalthg: .Ji the population of bome may be ten times the number of that of others, and the . ^ • • object Mlllll 3i MINUTF.S or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE .f "i'f Siimnel Gale, *''•)<'<'* '" (w^*' 't >» Well adapted for a new <'ountry) to allow fhotte sectionn of country for boquirc. ' M'tiirhlKHN han been prffvioiiMly done, and of which leRN ha* been previouiily aacertained, r- " , the nieiMiN of Hooner making their wautH known in the Logiwlature, and Hooner attaining 13 Mitjf 1HS8. equal ultimate improvement. Im not the Mtate of Vermont already very thickly settled in almoKt all partMofit ? — No, it Ih not \iiry thickly 8ettled in almoNt all partx of it. There are Home townnhips in which the HettlerH are not at all numerouH ; there are Home, as I underMtand, which were inhahitrd chietly by Scotchmen, who, when they nettled in thoHC townahipH, after they had remain* ed there a twelvemonth were entitled to send repreuentativea to the AHsemhly of the State ; and were entitUnl, at the end of two yeara, to be reprenentativea thenwelveH. Such waH the eu«-onrH);emeut ^veu to imnii8 which now send none to the Assembly ; those who send all would hardly seem to require an increas Englishmau or a S<^otchman settling in a new township, in the State of Vermont, would have an infinitely greater proportionate right in the representation of that State after ow. year's residence, than an Englishnutn or a Scotchman settling in the new townships iu ('anada would have in the represeutatiou of that British Province if he were to remain there all his life. Has not the House of Assembly twice passed bills to ex ;3i^d the representation on tlio Krinciple of making ponulution the standard whereby to rej^-ulau that extension ?— That I elieve was the original foundation, and I believe that there havo been bills introduced up- on that principle. When 8u<-h bills are introduced in the United States, even U|>on the democratic principle of universal suf)rag.»^ wnich could not be justifiablu iu Canada, they always provide a corrective for any alteration that may take place in the population. They do not make the laws which give a representation propor- tionate to the population, rest permanently on the population at tne time the Acts are . - passed, but they provide nt the same time a census that shall be taken every three or four years, according to which the representation is to adapt itself, so that if there be any dif- ference iu the population of the respective districts within three or four years, there is a self corrective applied to the representation. That was net the case in this bill in Lower Canada, it was a bill nearly founded upon the state of the population in the present day, which might alter in a new country so as to be totally different in the space of four or five years, and no provision was made for any such alteration. Besides, even in8<)vcralofthe United States, the principle of uuiversal suffrage is conceived to be rather too democratic inthat democratic countrv, as appears from what I have stated to be the case in Vermont, where the representation is terntonal or compounded of the temtorjr aad the population. Have ■ri! i ON TIIR CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. llnvf not wliHt i" rHllcHtfio FriMich pni-tv in tho IIoiihp of A«Mon»l»lv dorlnnvl tlioir wil> liii;riii'Ns to ^ivi> 11)1 any ndvaiita:;*' (lio\ iim< |>«>nmosn from tlio piopfrty Ihmii^ oliioltv in tlipjr linmlM, iinil to procpp*! upon tli«> principlt'of taUiii^ popiiliitiou iwthi' hiiMlNof r<>pri'iiontation in tli.it roniitry ? — Witli n-^'anl to propri-t^ , I ilo not know nor Im'1I»'vo tliat u larjfcr or ovi'n HO lar^ft' H pro|>ortionat(> Nliar«> of t)i«* lanrled prop«>rt> in in t)H>ir linndN ; and I l)(>li«n'<> that til*' l-lnifliMli onl> dt'Nirc a territorial rcpn'Montation, that is, that certain oxtrntN of(■ountrv ftllollld Im' laid out an connticN, w i«'h In a prartii-o HometinicH lullowi'd <>V(>n in tho Unitrd Slatt'N; that tho ronntieNHlnuild Ih< aM n«>ar)\ rqual as nmN he, and that wlipn the ronntirn have a certain (troportion of jioptihition i!io\ Nhoiild then Hond nieniherH, l>ut not nntil the. havea certain proportion of popnlati Icsn Idih linen as<-ertainod, and for whirh prenoiiKly Ickn liaMheen done, shonld he ennhled to mahn their wantH known and at- tended to, and the circiunHtain-es that hare occnrred in Lower Canada show the necoMitv of it, beeause for a hinp sfries of M>ars the inhahitantsof the townNhipN have hoen unaTailin^ly ondeavonrini? to procure redress of jifrievanccs from tho Ilonso of Assomhly ; tliey rmplo\ ed Nome ) ooTH a^o an ajfent at Qnehorfor that purpose, as people mijjlit employ an o^ont to make roprosontationstoadiNtHnt countr<, hut he could onl) solicit, without having au op- portunity of hrin^nfr any thin^r forward in tho Lrfifislatiire. Do y ou (;onceivo then that the inhabitants of tlie Euf^lish townships oupfht to have n number of members in tlie House of Assembl v, hc^ ond t!;e proportion that their population boars to tho population in the French part of the country ? — I do not think in a now country that to reifulatc the representation by the population is a mode that will most tend to advance it ; the most bcnelieial mode, as it appears to me, must he one in which representatives mav bo brought as early as propriety will permit from ucw settlements, which Htand more in lieed of legislation and hoJp than the old. Then you think a representation compounded of population and territory is the repro- Nontution most suited to tlie wants of a new country ? — I think it is tho only representation suited to the wants of a new country. With rpfjard to what \ou nave stated with respect to Vermont, are you aware how thin|if8 stand in that respect in the other states of North America ? — I am not aware how it is in ge- neral. I passed throuirh Vermont in cominpf to this country, and in nassinsf through I na- turally inquired into tl;e state of their reprosentation,and I foimd it to be as f have mention- ed. In Vermont tliey have as much reason to be jealous of allowing foreigners, who come into that country and reside onh a couple of years, this territorial right in the representa- tation, as an> English colony could have any title to bejealousofollowing a representation to native British subjects. Do )ou conceive that in any other State in the tlnion the nowly and thinly settled parts of the State have given to them a l.irger share in the representation, in proportion to their population, than the older settled parts of that State ? — I believe that is the case. Can >ou mention anv otlier instance of it ? — I cannot state any instance positivelv. I have understood this to be the case, that In some of the States the counties are all laid out of equal extent, even before thev all are inhabited, and tlint the law establishes, that as soon as a county shall contain a certain number of inhabitants it shall be entitled to have a repre- sentative. If they, who allow in many of tlieir States tbreignera to become naturalized in one, two or three ^cars, do not object to this mode of sending representatives, in an En- glish colony it could hardly seem justly exceptionable, when the settlers in whose favour it is desired are either Englishmen or Scotchmen. Is not ttiat at present the law in Upper-Canada ? — I dare say it is somewhat similar to tliat. In Upper-Canada they would probably have no strong objection to the division I am speaking of; and there could be little objection to it in Lower-Canada, except that wi icli wouldarise from a wish to exclude English representatives. There may be these consi- derations to influence them in those countries where the sections that send repi'csentatives are laid out of a certain extent throughout ; they consider tnat although at iirst the re- presentation may be unequal in proportion to numbers, yet that this is a defect which every ycs\r is diminishing, and which is in some measure compensated by equality of territory > V -• ^ E SiimufI Gult, KM|iilrp. 13 May, IKtS. 34 MINTTTB8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE . „ . territory, and that it is t^a mode that is best adapted to t^e pijpgress of new set- "^'squire/' tlements. \. ' Wliat is the size of fio county of Orleans ? — I believe it is not equal to a single i:^ May, 1828. township of 10 miles square in extent; it sends one representative. What is the «ize of ilie county of Buckiiiglam ? — It contains a number of scigneu- riea, and I believe abo.t 70 to*iis''ij*s in addition to t^e seiffneuries. What number of i^eiabers does t'mt send to parliament? — It sends tv^o. What is the size of «acli of tl;e tov.nslipsV — I believe t'.e general rule is 10 miles square. Can you furnish t'e Committee with a copy of t'e census of t^e population to w' ich reference was made in your former evidence ? — I will deliver in a copy of it (the witness delivered in the same). I believe, as far as the to -unships are concerned, there is inaccuracy in that census ; there could not have been the same facility in asccrtaiuinif the numbers of those that were dispersed over an immense extent of country, as t' ere would bo in ascertaining the numbers of those who live along the banks of the river, wl ero it must be comparativeh'^ easy to make the enumeration. If a system was applied to Lower-Canada similar to that which you describe to exist in Upper-Canada, and in the Stiste of Vermont, namely, that of giving the power to send representatives from any townships t!at might hereafter be settled and inhabited, according to a compound scale of territory and population, is it likely that in that im- mense tract of country that lies to the north of the St. Lawrence, such a niunber of townships would hereafter be settled as to create an Assembly far too numero u? — I sould not conceive that the Assembly would be more numerous in that wa}', (each county comprisi'igr several townsMps, and entitled to rep: eseutation only when posses- . Bcd of a certain population,) than when a certain measure was spoken of in the Parliament in this country some \ ears ago, it was presumed that it would be : bssides, if the present counties «ere to be diminished in extent, it could not be wrong to diminish tlie number of their members, wliicli would allow some to be given to new counties, with- out, pro tanto, increasing the total number of reprei^entatives. Do > ou refer to tlie Union ? — Yes. There was, I believe, a recommendation to tho Committee of t'^e House of Asscrablv to talse into considerntJou the proprietv of autho- rizing the Governor to divide the townships into counties, giving six townships as a countv, and of authorizing him to issue writs for the election of members. When was that project submitted to the consideration of the Oovernment ? — It was in the year 1823, that instructions were given to a Committee of the House of Assembly to inquire whether it would not be expedient to empower the (iovernor from time to timo to form new counties in the townships, each county to consist of six townships, I believe tliat those instructions were given to the Committee of the House, in consequence of a message from the Governor, as there had been a great variety of com]>iaints from tlie townships that tliey were not represented. Do you know whether the inhabitants of the townships exercise the elective fi*ancliise ? — In general they certainly do not, because their distance is so great from the place of elec- tion ; ind besides, if they were to exercise the elective franchise witli regard to one or two members onlv, it would be perfectly useless. ^ Do you conceive t'^at that evil, of t5»e distance which prevents their going up to vote, might be remedied under another system? — If that evil alone were remedied, it would not be worth the trouble of remedying it tinder the present s\ stem. Is any portion of that district that is called Northumberland likely to be settled at an eai'ly period? — I have heard that there are several millions of acres of land that may be very at for cultivation, and that flourishing and extensive settlements may be made there. ; Can you speak of the district that lies between tlie river Saguenay and the Ottawa ? — I cannot from personal knowledge. I have not travelled over tliat pai't of the country '- myaelf. I have understood tliat it is proballethat tlie country may be settled and im- proved. ' . - Yon were understood to state, that you had reason to suppose that the return of the English population in the townships is less than it should really be; nave not you also r«Mct: to suppose that the Canadians were very shy of returning their numbers, for fear the ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 35 is 10 miles tho Govoriiment were about to impose a poll-tax ? — 1 uever heard any thing of that kind Somuel Gale, that 1 recollect. , , , Esquire. How are the Enf^Ush inhabitants distributed, are they distributed in sucli a way as in*-^ -^ ^ any one couut_y to form a majority 'i — I believe that is not the case any where, uules ^^ ^*"y» ''^^s. in Gaspe. You liave stated that j ou are chairman of the quarter sessions ? — I am, for the district of Montreal Was it by Lord Dalhoiisie that rdr,- j3ut I believe that the English Government always allowed tne Jesuit missioriiu ici; . /' *.>iain in possession until the death of the last of them ; upon the dcata in 'iie b.-st of t^e order the Goveriimcnt of course took possession of the estates. How has tnat property been applied sine > i, 'va^ in possession of the Government } — The greater part of the net revenue ansin^* frciu those estates has been employed, as , I have understood, iu the advancement of edu< atioo. ,,.., 'J*'' 3« MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward Ellke, Eiquire. . ^ » 15 May, 1828. Jams, 15®. Maij, 1826. I ( « lii ' H nil •iil! ;!.:!li lliii Edward EUice, Esq. called in ; and Examined. THE Committee understand you are a propnotor of land in Lower Canada ?— I am a proprietor of land in bot!) Upper and Lower Canada. Do }'ou hold land in tho-seij^neiu'ies of Lower Canada as well as in the townsliips ? — In both. In wliat part of Lower Canada is it situated ? — I Hold the last seiofncury bordering^ upon Upper Canada, called Beauliarnois ; it lies about 18 miles above Montreal, on the southern bank of the River St. Lawrence. Did you acquire it bv purchase ? — No, I inherited it. Have you frequently been in the Province of Lower Canada ? — I have been there twice. For any considerable time ?-r-I was in Canada and the adjoining state of New York about a year each time. Have you paid much attention totlie administration of property and the state of the law there ? — A good deal, being very much interested in it. You are aware tliat by an Act that was ca^cd " The Canada Tenures Act" powers were given to transfer land held under the title of " Seigneury" to that of free and common soc- cage ? — A clause was passed to that effects at my suggestion in the Canada Trade Act in 1822, and subsequently the Canada Tenures Act was passed in 1825. Have you acted upon that ? — I have endeavoured to act upon both, but the difficulties in the way of taking advantage of the pro\'i8ion8 of eitlier Act have been so great, that in utter despair of being able to obtain a mutation of tenure, I have, within the fast year, directed the settlements to proceed upon the old system, although I conceive it was greatly to the disadvantage of tlie country and of the property itself. Will you be so good as to describe wliat you mean by the word settlements ? — Farms let to tenants of land not before occupied or brought into a state of cultivation. From my father's death, in 1804', till 1826, a period of 22 yeai*s, I gave directions to grant no now leases, expecting that at some future period the tenures would be changed ; and, actin'r upon that principle, i have made a great sacrili(;e of income during that period. In the year 1826, after friiitless effort to obtain a change in the tenure, in the first place under the Act of 1822, and then under the Act of 1825, I directed my agents to proceed in conceding the lands upon the old tenure; and by a 'return I have of the concessions made in 1827, I find 228 new farms have been conceded to an equal number of tenants, containing a super- ficial quantity of nearly 20,000 acres of kind, and for which I obtain a perpetual rent of about 500/. a year. Will you be so good as to describe the character of the obstructions which have prevented the provisions of the Act, called " The Canada Tenures Act," fiw.a being carried into effect ? Instructions were sent, Ua I understand, to the local government to carry into effect the provisions of the Act of 1822. The governor submitted those instructions to his execu* tive council, who'advised that a fine (f one fifth of t^c value of the property for which a change of tenure was desired should be required as the condition of the cession of the rights of the Crown in such cases. Considering tliat to be more than five or six times the value of the exchange, I declined it. I then made an application to the Colonial Department, stating the little probability of any changes of tenure taking place v/hile such terms were required, and that I did not know a single person in Lower Canada, except myself, at that time dis- posed to accept a cliange for nothing. In consequence of my representations, other ins- tructions were sent, desiring the Government to offer a mutation at the lower fine of five per cent upon the value, and I might have been disposed, for the sake of showing an exam- ple to the country, to accept the change upon those terms, but my agent found so many oth<; rEE ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 3? ida ?— I am a rosliips ? — In rdering' upon 1 the southern ft there twice, f New York bte of the law powers were common soc- rade Act iu iifficulties in that in utter sar, directed reaily to the ■Farms let From my ■^nt no now and, acting la the year ider the Act conceding in 1827, I m a super- lal rent of la, prevented arried into into effect his execu- ch a change ights of the alue of the nt, statinof e required, it time dis- other ins- ine of five ' an exam- d so many oth«; tl: ;r difficulties interposed by the local authorities, that all further attempts appeared Eilward FAUce, lopeless,; and he represented tome the little chance there was of any ultimate arnrnjc^enient Esquire. Ml the subject repayinjf the ip-eat sacrifices of rent I was making in the mean time, by de-' ^- , ^•rring the settlement of the land. _^ ^ 15 May, mas. Are von not aware of an Act which passed in the British Parliament in the tear 1825 jr the express object of fiici'itating a mutation of tenures ? — I have already stated I w.^s ' jiware of it, and in consequence of tl«it Act I desired my agent to renew the attempt, giv- ^iig him instructions at the same time to proceed with settlements under the old tenure, if Ms endeavours were still fruitless, in consequence of which the new settlemcuis in 1827 vas made. Can you state what reasons were given explaining the impossibility of carr\ iiig the Act futo execution ? — Without referring to the particular letters, I cannot sa', but the im- j)ressio upon mj'mind is, that my agent being veiy anxious to comply with my wishes of Dbtainihg a change of tenure, wrote to me generally that it was utterly hopeless. Do you conceive that the difficulty of changing the tenure since the passing of the Act of 1826 arose from any defect in the Act ? — The difficulty of changing the tenure arose, in my )pinion, from no defect either in the Act of 1822 or of 1825, it arose probably from a very fcneral cause of difficulty in that comitry ; a dread on the part of the local authorities to *ct upon their own responsibility, complaining of defective instructions from home ; and this iiggravated by perpetual reference backwards and forwards from the Government to tlio Colonial Secretary, in tlie hope tliat they miglit at last agree upon the means of executing tl pre ! ions of the law. A. > Uip; Com:mttee to understand that the powers of that Act of Parliament are not suf- icieutly clear to enable the governor to carry them into effect without any doubt as to au- liority friur' this side of the water V — In my apprehension, the provision'in the Act of 1822 ras sufficiently clear for a government that would have acted with any promptitude and tnergy, and would have felt interest in the object in view. Yoii have said that your application was referred to the consideration of the executive Council; of whom does the executive council consist? — I have only said, I understood it iras so referred. The council consist of the chief justice and other per''ons, whose duty it is, I advLse the governor with respect to the administration of the country. Are the executive council persons holding salaries as such ? — I rather think they are >ut I am not certain. Do you happen to know whether any attempt to change the tenure of land under that Act kas been successful, although your own attempt has failed ? — I am sure no other attempt |as been made. In suggesting the provision for tlie voluntary exchange of tenures in [822, I intended to shov :.' example to the country, as largely interested in lauded pro- perty, and 1 did not ex^ *■ \ at first, or until they were convinced of the advantages of mutation of tenure, » "y grei. '»umber of proprietors in Canada would follow my example. In your view, won) i be un advaavageous proceeding to change the tenure of laud held in |he seigneuries whio i I'ss be n in a otate of cultivation, as well as of land which has not ? — liooking to the state of pr. ,, ^ !^y and the improvement of the country from a duinge of te- nure, my views at the time wore pi incii)all\ directed to the two great cities of Montreal and Ijuebec, and to the property iatiie island of Montreal. The Crown or the Church, but now, I Relieve, the Crown solely lias the right of seigneurage over those two seigneuries, and of feourse has the power of conceding its rigiits upon any terms that might be supposed benefi- cial to the country. The chief obstacle to the improvement of Lower Canaaa arises from he objections of British-bom subjects to the investment of the large profits tliat liave re- tilted to them from the trade of the country in real property, and the impediments to the lirculation of capital so invested, by the provisions of the feudal tenures, and the heavy pes on every alienation. No house can be sold in Montreal or Quebec, or no farm ir the 8land of Montreal, without raying a heavy fine ; and to make the case worse, a doubt lias iitherto existed as to >Hc right of the seminary who held tlie seignory of Montreal to exact Ihese fines; but no pun 'la-'^ r woiUd accept a title unless the fine due by the previous pur- thasei had been voluni'i! ily paid. The fine is 12 J per cent, but frequently modified by com- promise. As the poj/ulation of the island of Montreal consists of about 50,000 persons, and )f Quebec of abuuc 25,000, a large proportion of the whole population of Lower Canada, id as tliere is a greater mass of capital in these two cities tliaa mail the rest of Canada, it appeared Minutes of evidence before select committee mk ■ t ;: ■', : ^;|iM'|ijif £dward Elliee, P^ared to me a ^reat object to endeavour to release the property from the sliackles of tlie old Esquire. tenures, so that capital might be invested in it, and be employed in its improvement, ins- f^ - ^ » tead of beuig sent out of the country, as it invariably is now, for investment in England. I 15 May 1828. hoped t!iat tne Crown, having the power, would have consulted the obvious interest of tlie Country by encouraging mutations of tenure on easy terms, and by degrees proprietors in other districts would have been convinced, by the increasing prosperity and improve' ment of the towns and the adjacent lands, of the advantages of a better system, ana have been induced to promote a general change. I may add, that the depreciation of property in the towns has been frightful of late years, and I can see nothing in the present state of Canada likely to produce a different state of tilings, except by the removal of the existing impcdi. ments to the application of capital to the improvement of the country. I conceive that if tlie tenures upon the island of Montreal were converted into free and common soccage, and a* registry was provided for the registration of titles and mortgages, that the improvement of that part of Canada, and its advance in wealth and population, would be as rapid as that which has taken place in any other part of America. Was there any doubt that the Crown had the power to grant those mutations ? — There was never any doubt that the Crown might have made an equitable arrangement with the se< minary, to have given the Government power to act as they pleased with respect to the pro- perty in the seigneury of Montreal. Has any adjustment ofthii point taken .1"^' ? — I understand that one has lateV taken place. Can you describe the nature of the claim of t'.; Jesuits ? — I understand the seigneury of the island of Montreal was firtt granted to the senuiiot y at Montreal for purposes connected with the Komau Catholic church, and education under its direction. Doubts subsequently arose, during the French Revolution, as to the rights of persons claiming to be successors to the original grantees; and of course if these rights were extinguislied, the property would have reverted to the Crown. ' When you alluded to a claim on t^e part of .the clergy, did you allude to tl^e Roman . Catholic clergy or foe Protestant ? — The Roman Catholic ; and I think it necessary to state, that when I talk of the claims of the Roman Catholic clergy in Canada, I do not be- lieve a more liberal, benevolent, or charitable body of Ciiristiau ministers exist in any 'country, or one whose conduct and habits are more examplary or praisewortlss ; but I should rather be inclined to think that much the greatest quan- jtv of real proi)erty was held by the French Canadians, the English inhabitanta having bjections to invest their property on such titles. Can you point out any means by which the difHculties t'lat now impede this change of snure can be removed? — I was always of opinion that a detailed instruction transmitting A<;t of 1822 to the Government of Canada, such instruction being founded upon the p;>al information of the chief law officers of the Crown in Canada, who were then acciden- illy in England, directing the Government forthwith to carry the provisions of t' at Act I execution, would have been sufficient ; and I advised at the time of the framing a oroclamation in this country to be transmitteif to Canada,and there issued for that purpose. You used tl)e exnression " detailed instruction," can you point out what provisions ^hose details shoula contain ? — Such provisions as the competent legal authorities who rere then upon the spot might have anvised to be sufficient to carry into effect the pro- li ions of an Act which they themselves had framed. Do you think it would be desirable that the Crown should make the mutations without taking any fine whatever ? — On general principles, I think the Crown should make the Buitation on such conditions as were most likely to be acceptable to the mass of persons lolding property under the old tenure, and likely to encourage them in accepting the mu- , ., tiition. ^ ^ ^ _ • *"•' '" '" Although you do not know, in point of fact, any other exact impediment which stands \ tbe way of those mutations, can you, from your knowledge of the subject, im.ngine any hich you tiuuk probably have impeded it '< — I can conceive no others than I have tated. What do you suppose to be the value of the Crown's interest In the property so propo- pd to be changed ? — The Crown is entitled to one fifth of the value of all seigneuries dis- [josed of by sale ; but the magnitude of the fine is in itself a bar to frequent transfers of property. Upon tlie seigneury wt ich I have in Canada, one fine of about 900/. has been paid Mithin the last forty years. There are also means of evading t^e fine, and the liniount is in fact more nominal than real, as a compromise generally takes place place be- fore asiile. The seigneur can concede his property, reserving the smallest passible nominal bent, so that the Crown's fine upon any disposal of that small reserved rent would be very ^rifling ; but some general estinijite of the whole value of those fines to the Crown in Canada, ■an be obtained by a return of their amount since the country has been in our possession. Tlie right of the sein^neur to a fine of one twelfth on every mutation is much more valuable, because the tenant has no power in any M'ay to evade it. Mutations naturally take place »f snuill tenements either by forced sale/or division among families. The seigneur's fine also Hlways increases with the increasing value of the improvements upon the property, so that In point of direct interest the title under which the seigneur holds Ms lands by the French naw is more advantageous than it would be under the change of tenure. The land is let at a perpetual reserved, rent, with other right*, such as the droits de moulture, de retraite, an4 inesou mutation, and which, taken together, return him a greater portion of t^is revenue khan the rent; whereas, if he disposed ofh!s land iii free and common soccage in a no pountry, he probably would not get much more than the rent he now receives, without the jther sources of revenue. Notwithstanding the value of those advantages, would you as seigneur have been willing • have suffered the mutation of land to have been made on your own property, and to have suffered persons to hold under you in free and common soccage, although thereby you could liave resigned your right ? — Most undoubtedly I would, because it would have led to introduction of greater capital, and to the impiovement of the part of the property, shich would have given me great advantage! in the disposal of the remainder Can 40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ^EFOIIE SELECT COMMITTEE ^i?^- I i;li||i;i lim ; !li! PAwnrd ElHcc ^''*" >'**" ?'^® *''*' Coramitfpo any jflea of what tliat land which you have described as Esquire. ' having let for Sd. an acre would have sold for in free and common soccage ? — -l should 8ii|i- , A , pose It would have sold from \5s. to a g'uinea an acre ; I have, as I liave described to tlio 15 iVlny !828. Committee, a gprcat mass of land held in free and common soccage immediately adjoinin;r my seig'ncury. Some difficulties had occurred with respect to the title of this property, which prevented me for many years attempt! n<|^ to settle it. Those ditHculties I think, after 20 years application, have been removed by the Government of Quebec, and I am now en- deavouring to settle this land upon the terms on which I proposed to settle the seigneury if I had succeeded in obtaining a mutation of tenure ; but what will still more strongly exem- plify the advantages that would result to the country from a cliange of system, and more liber- al institutions, is the fact that there is no difficulty in making sales of land, inferior in quality, and much worse situated with respect to means of communication and markets, in the adjoining part of the State of New- York, at at least double the price to that which can be procured in its immediate vicinity in Canada. I have with me a retnrn of the sjiles of 10,000, part of between 40,000 and 50,000 acres, adjoining those ands in Canada, but fortu- nately on the other side of the line, averaging 30s. per acre, and the agent advises me tlii^ may be tlie average value of the wliole of the remainder. Was not the original right of the Crown as seigneur to oneiifth. — It was. You are understood to state, that when the Crown proposed to concede its rights as seigneur, it proposed to take five per cent '? — It did by the last instruction. The object being to induce the seigneur to release, on his part, the land from those cir- cumstances of seigneurial tenure, are you of opinion that it would be right for the Crown to grant the seigneur a release at a l^^^ ' \te than five per cent? — I cannot exactly answer that question, mrther than by the 'ihiaCration of my own case, that I was williug to pay five per cent ; but I doubt very much whether I was not tlie only seigneur in Canada who would have accepted a mutation on such terms. The regulations, with respect to terms. 1 believe, were suggested by myself, anu onl^ • '. s.ed them, as I wish still, tliat they had form- ed part of the Act of Parliament, and not hd^a left to the Government at home or in Cana- da, with whom Ihe instructions have hitherto remained a dead letter. Are you of opinion that if the Crown were disposed to make easier terms with the inter- mediate tenant, the tenant would be disposed to make easier terms with his sub-tenants ?— I do not think it would make the least difference. The right of the seigneur, as I liave al- ready explained to the Committee, is of great value to him, and the value of right of the Crown is, practically speaking, nearly nominal ; and if great encouragement is not given by the Crown, except in the cities of Montreal and Quebec, where persons may be desirous to invest capital for profitable employment, very few mutations would take place. Are not the persons who hold under a seigneur entitled, by the 6th Geo. 4, to compel '':°i seigneur to a mutation of title ? — When I first suggested this alteration, it was with a •< lew to the general improvement of the country ; and the release of tlie rights of the Crowu to the seigneur would conduce comparatively little to this end, unless the tenant had some power of emancipating himself from the shackles of his tenure. Much greater advanta<<:e would result from the general surrender of their feudal rights by tiie seigneur, than from any emancipation of particular seigneurs by the Cr©wu. Do you conceive that the great mass of the vassals in the seigncuries are desirous of any change in this respect, or not ? — I conceive that a very small portion of the country popu- lation, for many years, would take advantage of the change, until they were convinced of the benefit their neighbours derived from being subject to no fines on mutations ; and by their own experience of paying repeated fines, from which adjoining property was exempt. Is not that principle or tiie French Coutume de Paris to discourage mutations in property as much as possible, the very principle that attaches the French population to tlie pre- sent state of^law in that country ? — That principle, so contrary to all the principles upon which the British Government have proceeded in the government of their other Colonies, has tended to retard the improvement of Lower Canada, while the improvement of otber parts of America has been advancing with rapid strides ; and although I should be as adverse as any one to deal forcibly with the prejudices and feelings of the Canadians, who certainly are attached to, and imagine themselves interested in, the preservation of their present system, still, as a matter of necessity, time will so deal with them, unless they can accommo- date themselves to a gradual amelioration either under our Government or under some other. b tell ^ Hescribed as should 8U|)- ribed to tlin ly adjoinin;; lis property, [think, after am now eii- scigncury if ongly pxoin- d more liber- I, interior in I markets, in liat which can if the sales of ila, but fort 11- viiies me tltiii I its rights as ora those cir- 'or the Crown xactly answer willing to pay a Canada who ct to terms, I liey had form- ic or in Caua- with the inter- lb-tenants?— ', as I have al- |of right of the is not ffiven ,y be desirous ice. 4, to compel it was with a of the Crown ant had some er advanta;;e ■ur, than from esirous of any pountry popn- 1 convinced of Itions ; and by was exempt. |i8 in property Ln to the pre- Inciples upon |her Colonies, aent of otbcr I be as adverse Iwho certainly Itheir present Ian accommo- under some Ii "i- ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF OANAt)A. 41 en f,''ovpniou l>y tlie l-rencn civil lavr, or ttie uiw or r.iiyimm. /\n o such property, with v<'ry few exceptions, havi> het'ii c oiidiutod up- it'» ''»- • [with thi! (.'anadiaus by showiu"' them the ailvaiitiiges to bo derived uiidtM' u better system, I which prevailed among their iieighlxMirs. Can you state wlicthor the tenure upon whicli laud is now held in the townships is liable to [any ohjectionV — There have been great doubts wit respect to t e tithes to property f eld uiiiler Britis"' grants in Lower Cmada, and wit i respect to t' e laws ii'Vectiug t em, I, util the Canada Tenures Act of \S'iii, I do not believe any person holding real property iji Ifi'ee and comr.iou soecage in (!anada knew very well bv what law his i)roperty « as regula- jted. Nor could I tell whether the property! held In free aud couunon soi-cage would jhave descended or been governed by the rreoch civil lavr, or the hiw of England. All [transactions relating to ' [On the principle of thei I knowledge had taken _ [at rest. Doubts have also been expressed as to the rights and powers of the seigneurs, in jleasing and disposing of their property under the French law, M'hicli are frequently made [the siihject of public discussion in times of excitement, but wiiich have never been brought Ito any judicial decision. Some of the French lawyers state their doubts whether seigneurs nvho have been in possession ever since the English occupation of Canada, and who have Jvaried and increase*l their rents according to the circumstances of the times, had any right to do so. Tiiey alledge this property is held solely in trust for the settlement of it by the poorer class of peo])le, and tliat an Ordonnmice du Jtoi, published above a century ago, jut which has never been acted upon in Canada, should now regulate all transactions be- tween the seigneur and his tenant, and that the seigneur has no right to require or receive higher rent than was then customary. The practice of the country has been entirely at i\'ariance with that rule ; but in the later disputes tliat have occurred in Canada, some of my tenants were advised to resist the paj'ment of this rent upon this ground : they did so re- sist, and my agent was obliged to proceed by law to compel the payment of the rent ; but the proceedings were ."•topped in tlieir progress by the submission of* the tenants. ! Did the declaratory clause in the Canada Tenures Act aflect the rights of any consi- klerable number of Canadians ? — I do not see how it could affect their rights, as it never liad been ascertained that lands in free and common soccige were liable to the provisions ttf the French civil law ; but certainly if they had been so liable, the younger branches of a family, or the mortgagee of a younger son's jjroportion in his father's property, would bve been left by the provisions of that Act without anv protection for his rights. Were there many French Canadians, who by holding lands in the townshii)s, were effected by that dedaratorv clause? — I should think very few; and I should have no tthjection, for a very small sum of money, to undertake myself to indemnify all persons vho could have any complaint under this' clause. Are the Committee to understand that as the law noAV stands, lands in the townships mid be conveyed fairly aud securely according to the English forms of conveyance ? — ks I understand by the provisions of the Act, landed property in free and common soc- ; would be regulated by the English laws alfecting real property, with the exception »f a very necessary alteration, that the land would be subject to simple contract debts ; ^nd further, that any land, the title of which might be changed from the feudal tenure " the free and common soccage, would be o^overned in like manner; and that would have en a great temptation to me, and would be to all others, to obtain a mutation of 9nurc. Under those circumstances could a person borrow money on mortgage on property in ie townships ?^ — I should think it would be exceedingly difficult to borrow money on kroprty in the townships, until a court for the registration of titles is established, by Vhich incumbrances upon real property could be ascertained. By the provisions of he French Civil Law every Act passed before a notary (and there arc very few Acts DWting to money arrangements in Canada that are not passed before a notary) are held to i 49 MIXUTE8 OF EVIDENCE BBFOliE SELECT COMMITTEE H Edward Ellke, ^^ ^® liypof^ecary claims affecting the real estate ot the parties, aud it is impowibla at Esquire. prosont to guard againnt the risks resulting from the circumstance. , ^*'~ > If a law were passed to enforce the registry of all transfers of property in Canada, 15 May, 182S. ought it in your opinion to be confined to the townships, or to such lands as were held in free and common soccago, or should it extend to the seigncuries ? — There can be no doubt that for the security of the trading part of the community, and to induce ca« pitalists to invest and advance their money on lands, it ought to extend generally to all propertv ; and more particularly as it is impossible to conceive any injury that could result to the owners of property under the feudal tenure by having a record of the sales and the burthens affecting it. I would add, that in the state oi New- York there are courts of record in every 4M>unt>, and that having ^ad myself much experience and some trouble in tracing the titles to property in various quarters of that State, I have met with the greatest facilities bv having recourse to t^e registers where the record of every mutation of a property is to be found. You state tnat of late years a great depreciation of property baa taken place in the towns of Quebeo and Montreal ? — There has. What hati been the cause of that depreciation ? — I think, amongst others causes, the withdrawal of capital from the country, for investment in England, and some feeling of insecurity arising from the existing dissentious in the government, in addition to the obstacles I have already stated to invcstraentfl in real property. Do you attribute f'at to the disputes that have taken place in the country ? — Certainly I attribute some part of it to those disputes. '. Has not a great loss been sustained by the merchants t- at continue to reside in Ca- nada ? — C)f course, great loss has been sustained by all holders of real property in the depreciation of that property ; I am not aware of any other loss except the losses that have aft'ected all His Majesty's subjects that Imve been trading witaiu the last tea years. Are you acquainted wit'i t^'e conditions on which t'le Government grants lands in t^e townships of Lower-Canada ? — I am uoquainted wit-'i the subject, as almost t .e greatest practical grievance of which t'^e industrious population of Canada liave to complain. These grants have been most inconsiderately and wantonlv made in large masses to people connected wit^ Government, without imposing upon them, or at least enforcing after t ey were imposed, adequate conditions for the settlement and cultivation of the lands ; or without taxing them for the vast property of which t'ley have got *^08session, and w'tich lie idle and unimproved, to the great detriment of 4he country, and to t' e great nuisance of t^ie inhabitants around. To what extent I'as this taken place ? — I am afraid in Upper and Lower-Canada it ita ^ taken'place to so frighful an extent that the possession of^ a great part of t!ie valuable and improvable land is in tSe hands of absentees, which migiit be otherwise now occu- pied by industrious and active settlers. Has the land been granted in large masses ? — In great masses. I think it would be very right for the Committee to require a return of all the grants that have taken place since General Prescott's time, at least since it has been t' e fashion for almost every counsellor or officer connected with the Govemment'to get a grant of from 5,000 to 20,000 acres. Is not the condition ef escheating to the Crown all lands not improved, in a constant progress of operation ? — I t'link it is the worst possible process as a rec!edy for tite evil of these large grants ; a muc^ more simple remedy woula be to follow tht: example of tie .' State of New- York, in taxing uncultivated lands. By w'lom were those grants made? — By the Government there, or by instructioiu from home. Has that practice existed for a considerable length of time ? — It has existed since land was supposed to be of any value in Canada. It was an easy mode, either of rewarding services, or satisfiying jobbefs. Are you not aware t at t 'ere were terms of settlement imposed in^all those gnmts ?— / • I am quite aware t at in some cases, not in all, terms of settlement were impos4>d; but by somd strange accident it happens t at they never have been enforce^ aiod t'le gr.cat«st portion o( these lauds is now in a state of mldemessj tiie proprietroductive of as great and serious a gncvance in t! e couutr,, as ti.e neglect of tne provisious for t!)e improvement of the lands l^as hitherto been. lu what respect would it act as a grievance in the country ? — Persons laving influence either in tho country or at homo, (and there are nwny such \«ho are grantees of this pro- perty,) would remonstrate against those proceedings, and according to the prevailing practice in such cases, relief would be given in some instances and none in ottiers, and complaints would necessiurily arise, from any apparent partiality, which might even be juRtitied in particular cases. It would be impossible to confide the execution of so wide a discretion, with any hope of its being satisfactorily exorcised by the IochI authorities. Are many of those grantees who have so neglected to perform the conditions tindef which they have received the ^nts of land resident in Canada, or are they prin* cipally absentees ? — I should think principally absentees ; some Governors of the Colonv ; and many grants have been made ati a remuneration for public services by tlie Government. Are not those tracts of land, in many instances, in the best situations in the whole Colony ? — They ^consist principally of the nearest lands to ti'O seignenries which had not been granted under ti e feuda| tenure, and, of course, are in a situation to whicli access is more easy t: an to tde more- remote lauda that bav# been granted to the actual settlers. Have those grantees neglected the duties of settlement as well as those of cultivation, in making roads t*irough tlieir grants ? — The greatr.it evil of all is f'at arising from the neglect of making roads. The still greater grievance of graqts to the clmrch, where! no person is bound to make duties of settlement, remains to be stated ; and the country remains impervious and impassable in consequence of the neglect of this very necessary improvement by all parties. To wliat extent have any of those grants been made; wl:at mass of land has been granted to any individual ? — I should tl.ink in some cases to ti.e extent of :iO,000 or 30,000 acres. Does great inconvenience result from tl e size alone of those grants ? — Of course, the inconvenience is greater in proportion to t e size. Has a great number of suco grants as those taken place witliin tie last few yeiu^ ? — No; they granted so much of t> e valuable part of tl e country tl at the grants at distant places became of less value, and were less sougi.t after; and I believe t e eyes of Gov- enunent were soon afterwards turned to tlie evil. Are you aware wlieti er the clause in t' e 6tl» Geo. 4, empowering t! e Government to esc'eat, has been put in operation P — I know, as a matter of fact, tliat I have been / threatened witii it, on some lands which my father bought, oa adjoining his seigneury, from soldiers, Serjeants, and subaltern officers, to whom it was granted in small lots, in remuneration for their services, wi.en they were disbanded at t!.e close of the American war. Some objection was taken to the title of tiiese people, which was lemoved after an incessant suit at Quebec for 14 or 15 years; and tl:e mo- ment I got a title that could enable me to settle the land, I was threatened witii an escheat, which however I have prevented bv doing that which I am quite disposed to do, pro- viding for the settlement of t!te country. Do you know whether escheats, of land have taken place under that Act ? — None, that I am aware ot. Can you suggest any mode by which this ^eat evil might be remedied ? — The only efficient remedy is by imposing a tax upon unoccupied lands, and by the Crown pro- ceeding, upon the non-payment of the tax, to brin^ the land* to sale in execution for ^ the taxes. ^ (1 II ^■:\ f 'A 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE Jill >;! Edward ElHce ^" ^^^^ *^'® pnictice iu theUnited-StateH? — Yes, cpnstantly. KM|iiirc. "oes any power of imposing Kiidi a tax exist except in the Local Assembly oF the , ->y ^province? — None, excopt we ttiiould be oblijfed to tullow the precedent which we un. 15 May 1828. iint'ortunattdy have bt'OTi (h'iven to, of ie , there is this very obvious difference, that the seizure of property could only then take place .on the failure of a condition, which is matter of actual fact within the cognizance of the- parties ; and the pubHo proceeding b; estreat can only take place upon the proof that the conditions of settle- ment have not been attended to, and parties may differ atul will differ as to the intent and meaning of the obligation of settlement imposed upon them. Are \ ou not aware that the ( !rown has now the power to impose some conditions of settlement, inasmuch as the original conditions not having b*?en satisfied, those lauds are actually escheated? — I am not aware of any nower that t e Crown hjis of im- posing new terms till they have actually estreated tne lands, and brought them to sale uuder execution. Would not a question of fact arise before you could impose the tax upon the unculti- vated lands ? — That would depend ou the regulations of the law, but proprietors should be obliged to carry in certifirates of the actual occupation of the lands into the County Tax Office, to exempt them from taxation. Ai e you awai'e how that niachincry works in the United-States ? — Without the least difficulty. Does it often happen that distress is levied upon those lands in the State of New- York, in order to enforce the payment of the tax ? — It has happened to myself, that by the neglect of my agent the receiver of the county has actually taken possession of my land, aud I know of no difficulty that ever has occurred in the State of New- York witlj respect either to the levying of the tax, or proceeding to the sale of land upoti which the tax has not been paid. Under what regulations is the tax imposed ? — The tax is imposed npott all wild and unsettled lands by an Act of Legislature of the State of New-York ; I am not in pos- session of the detailed regulations under Avhich the tax is levied and collected, but 1 will ' endeavour to procure them for the Committee. Supposing the case of a district of uncultivated land being pantedjo any individual, ' is there any time allowed to him for bringing his land into cultivation ; does the tax take place forthwith, or is he entitled to hold it any certain unmber of years before he becotnes liable to it? — If such period ever was granted, it has long since elapsed in the State of New-Yurk, where they attend to the internal administration of their affairs with the greatest precision aud regular! I'y. Do you purchase the laud subject to the condition of the pajine it of such a tax ?— ■ By a reference to the rtigister of every county you can always find or t whether the tax has been paid, or to what period it is in arrear. ' As you have stated, that in your opinion a tax upon uncultivated land is a mtich mote efficient mode of bringing unsettled land into cttltiratioa than any other prd^cete, what i« ON THE CIVIL tiOVERNxMENT OF CANADA. 4A is your opinion of the |irobal)lc fnte of n bill that niifrht be introduced into tlio Lo^s- EduwU lature of Lo'/t er-Canudn for the express imrpose of asMitnilatinnr thfc law in that nrovinfo Lmjui to that oi' New-York ? — After the expcrienec of some years last past 1 should doubt , -^' the fate of any bill introdmed by tiie {iovernment into the Assembly of Lower-Canada, I5 Way, SIS at present constituted, fir any purpose. V> liy V — In couseijueucc of the eternal sqmibblcs between the Assembly and the exe cutivc power, and their jealousy and distrust of each otiier. huk'pi'ndeutly of those sqiiuhbhvs, have you nn> reason to think that a bill broujjht into eft'ect this object would be liable to objection by individuals who compose the As- sembly y — That depends "\cry much upon the individual interest of the members, and whether they arc considerable laudowuers ; and with respect to the Legislative Council, the same dilnculty mijjht occur. Wluit would bo the iudividual interests of an inhabitant possessing property in the scigneurics ? — It depends upon the extent of unconcedcd property h* nossesses. Is there sudh a mass of unconceded property in the seigneunes as to be liuely to create an interest among the seigneurs, or persons holding land in them, to object to such sx tax y — How far it would create such an iuterest I know not, but there is a great mass of unconcedcd land in the seigueuries; the seigncuries goibg in man} instances six or eight leagues back from the river, and in very few instances being settled for more than one or two. If this law of escheat was to be acted on to any extent, would it not make the future titles of land extremely doubtful and dilHcnlt, as to knowing vhere the law of es- cheat did arise, and where it did not arise? — In niy opinion it would involve the whole couqtrv, and all the tenures of free and common soccage land in endless confusion. If a tax were to I e adopted in the manner you describe in place of the law of escheat, would the same difficulties arise as to future titles ? — Certainly not. With regard to the difficulty which you conceive does not occur under the system of a tax upon wild lands, namelv, the doiibt whether the settlement duties have b ;t to your process ? And then the specific perfonnance of your conditions might &'' .; " — \ 1 b-J8. H It 46 MINUTK8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE E'twaril Rtfia; Suppo«Jn«f tho Crown, to-mnrrow, to jpunt 10,000 aorefl to any Indirldiml, aro you tuA le, of opinion that it M'oiild b« cxtn>m(>ly pjwy to frame mich ronriitionn an would involve ni» * ^olmcurity when the qiieNtion came to he connidered whether he had fultilled them or not ?— 15 M»y I8J8. The b«'Kt condition ih to jftant to no individiuil 10,000 atTes of land ; but I «lo not »eo how ^ by poNHibility yon can impoHe «uch conditionn, or that any pemon would be wiUin|f to ac- cept^ them, iiiaNniuch an it tho proprietor of Huch laud, under mich a title, wanted to nell a portion of Iun estate, the purrhaner would require to know wh«ther he had performed tho condition with reiiDect to tho rent of it. ^ Are you aware tnat this in the princiulo upon which certain conditions aro imposed with respect to every ^rant that in now nuiae by the Crown, in order to prevent a recurrence of the iniHchief compUiined «>f V — No ifrnntH, to my knowledge, to tno extent ntated in tho previoun (jueHtion have been rocoutly made, or no g^ranti except to pentoua b^mjide iii< tendiaiuf to itettle upon them. Do you consider that there is any objection in principle tft the Crown makia|f a jrrant of 10,000 acroH to any individual who will apply sufficient capital to bring it into a state of cultivation ? — Certiiinlv not. Th it likely that any individiuil would be able to apply a sufficient capital to bring 10,000 acres into cultivation ? — I should be very sorry to do it. If thiH measure of taxing unoccupied umds is most advantageous for the general settle- raent of the countrj', have you auy doubt that such an Act would be adopted and pibiHPd by the Lt^islahire of (/unada ? — Such an Act, to a certain extent, has been pnwied by tho Logiitluture of Upper Canada, and I should conceive that if some conciliatory udjuNtnteiit of the existing difficulties could take place, there would be little doubt that the Legislature of Canada geneniUy would pass Acts which were obviously for the interest of the country. Is there any difficulty which would prevent individuals who held those large mosses of . land from putting them up to sale in portions, and is there any difficulty in nuking a title, arising from the state of trie country '? — There is no difficulty in mrtking a title from a clear grant from the Crown, if this new doctrine of estreat does not inti>H'ere with it ; but so Ion;; as the (Vown has not proceeded to estreat, I take it for granted >\uy body would take a title subject to the conditions in the original grant. Tiiere is the ovher difficulty to all titles in Canada, the want of a registry, and the danger that the property may be aiiected, even without the knowledge of the seUer, by some Act passed before a notary, to which he may have been a party. Would it not be one of the best modes of remedying this evil to facilitate sales ? — Sales of land in Lower Canada for money are very difficult. Another objectiou occurs to nie to any immediate process of estreat, which is, that until the passing oi^ the Act of 1825 the ti- tle to lands previously granted, and the rpiestion whether they were effected by the English or the French civil law, had not been settled ; so that it was uncertain whether the chiblrou of an original grantee took in common, or whether the land fell to the eldest son as heir. of settling those difficulties with regard to the grants of laud, that the Legislature of (.Canada should be induced to adopt some such provision as that whi<;h prevails in the United Stiites V-^Most assured- ly ; it wonld be not only the simplest but ttie most expedient and beneficial course. Are you aware of any other course that could be adopted tiiat would have a tendency to subdivide those grants, and to enable the present proprieto ■s to transfer them into others hands upon any tenure, either of lease or freehold, to convey them to persons that would be likely to improve and cultivate them 'i — I take it that they cannot by law transfer upon aiiy other tenure than an English tenure. Could any means be adopted that would facilitate the transfer ? — I know no difficulty that occurs now to the transfer except any difficulty that may be interposed from the causes I have stated. Would not persons as willingly take grants of lands ivoxa. individuals who had received large grants fi'om the Govornment, as from the Government itself V — Undoubtedly they would, if satisfied with the title. Are not the Government in the habit of daily granting portions of land to individual!) in the unsettled parts of the country ? — They are, certainly, in Upper Caiada, and, 1 believe, in Lower Cauada. Do ■I' or Tim CIVIL OOVERNMBNT OF CANADA. 4T rou not oWc no not y — leo how no doubt that anions; othrr l>arN (<> the iiiiproveinont of the country the pn'sent Jttiite of the law, an afl'ectiiitf luinlt'd proporty,* " operates to a conwderable exteuit, an I have already Hated ; but I Hhouln Nay, heyund that, '•* '"^"y ••'^•• a feeling of restlefisneas, uncertainty, and iuHecurit, ariiiinjf from the evident couMe- tniences of a ayHtem of mal-admiuiiitratiun of the (loverument for the last 20 yean ; the disputes that liave prevailed, and must continue and increane between tho vvo province* iu their divided state, with respect to tho power of ref^ulatinjE^ the trade, and let^Ir.^ du- ties on the St. Lawrence, and to the diviaion of revenue ; and the perpetual state of ex- citemeut aiul irritation in which tho public mind in kept, have lately tended materially tu clieok coiUideuce and eaterprize, and the application of capital to the improvement of property. Do you consider that the executive Government are reffponsible in any define for th» difficulties that arise as to the division of the Custom duties between tho two countries ?— (,'ertaiuly not. The unfortunate division of the nroviufles, the contlictini^ claims of their separate leji^islations, and the questions before referred to rexpiicting their rights of taxa- tion, and regulating the revenue on the St Lawrence, are not imputable to Uovonmieut. Are you of opinion that the French Canadians fee! that according to their view of the in- terests of the province, the facilitating settlement would so far heneiit the province as to muke it probable that they would consent to any bill which would have for its natural eflfect the progressive settlement and improvement of the provinco by English settlers V — The great object of the French population and legislature is obviously to retain their separate institutions, their laws, their church, and their distinct condition from the people of Ameri- but of course although much may be seciured to them by mutual concession, all their ca objects can only be effected at the expense of the interest of the English population, and by the retardment of all improvement in the country. So far fron blaming them for enter- taining that separate view, probably if I was similarly situated I might feel disposed to cling to the same hope as long as there was any reasonable probability of being able to maintain it; but feeling that sooner or later they must form part of the great American and English family, any attempt to sacrifice tho paramount interests of improvement and civilization of the country to their habits or prejudices, would not only lie injurious to tho rest of Canada, but hopeless as to its result. Do you conceive that independently of any acrimonious feeling existing between the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, a great majority of which ore French Canadians, and the executive government, they would be disposed to resist the introduction of a Bill for the purpose of taxing waste lauds, inasmuch as the result of such a measure could only be to increase the English population of the country ?— I am afraid tbe]r might be actuated by any motive which in t^'Cir opinion could retard the settlemont of the couutry by a new po- pulation. Are you of opinion that that feeling has arisen from the manner in which they have been governed i* — I am of opinion that it arises in some respect from that, but more from the reason I have stated before, that they wish to maintain their separate caste as long as tliey may be able. Can you specify any particular bills that they have passed, or that they have refused ta pass, from which you would infer that disposition on the part of the Honse of Assembly, or IS it merely your general impression ? — I understood they had refused to pass a bill for tlie voluntary mutation of tenures, and another for establishing registers ; these are the only two, that occur to me at present, but I am certun there are many others ; sucli bills were sent down by the Legislative Council to them, and they refused to pass them. Was not their mdispositioa to pass those bills, in a great measure, founded upon their conceiving that the Government of England had interfered with a subject which more pro- perly belonged to then^dlves and to the local Government of Canada ? — The Government w. England only interfered after they had refused to pass those bills. WiUj'ou state to the Committee what other causes have, in your opinion, produced the present difficulties in Canada, and obstructed the settlement and general improvement of the province ? — I conceive the great cause, as I have already stated, has^ been a long course of mismanagement, and a constant attempt to reconcile contradictory principles in theadininistratiou of affoirt in that country. The untbrtunate diviaion of the proVinc* ^r^w ^'"-''"■' i ^i»i ■I! 11 ; '111 i8 MINI TES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT CO^'MITTEE l-.tUvnri fWrVf, 1"'**^'"*'*''' ^^''**' f«>H«>wr(l by tlio ostablislimont of an independpnt Legislatnro, placed hsquirc. ' in the hands of on(* class of subjects, witlioyt providing for any pju-ticipntion in their , -A , rights, by tho Enj(Iish popiilntiou, as tl!(?y iucrcuticd in numbers and importance. 10 iMiiy, iHi;8. To this Tjeirislnturo, rij^lit or wron"-, you jjave the. most extensive powers and privilefres, wliit h have been apparoutJy found in practice so inconvenient, that they have been invaded or resisted as often es any emerpeucy or necessity required it. The rijrl)t.s of the Crown bavo been fastidiously insisted upon on OQC side, and inadmissible dnims of power and privilejje set up on the other. This lias been fii'oing' on ueaily since tlic time of Gcijeral Trescott's administraticm, and mutual jealousies and quar- rels have increased, Avith some sliort iutermissious, till the evil has {frown to its present formidable size. I think tlie fair inference must be, that much has taken place to l»o renrretted on both sides. Certainly tl e Caniidians comidain, with apparent reason^of somo part of the conduct of (lovcrunicnt; an En^i^libh receiver is appointed, insufficient securi- ties bciujjf taken in Enj^land ; the Assembly |suggt>st tlie reuulatiou of his ollice, and subse- quently, I undei-iitand, bills wcce scut up in tlio tonus of a bill ]>assed in other Colonies for t' is j)urnos« ; thoy are told this is an eucroachmeut on the preroou:it. These are not theoretical, they :ire practical evils, and fcnu just ifround of ci.niplaiut. In the midst of such disputes, diO'erences between the provinces arose as to tlie division of revenue raised at Quebec. At- tempts are made to settle th mu by arbitration. The Assembly at Quebec set up t!ie most in- iMiniissiHe pretensions, and the matter was referred for decision to this country. I must orter my testin;r>r.y as to the unwillingness of (government in this in.»itanco to resort to I'ar- liameutary interferc;uo i*'it i )uld have been avoided ; but when the only alternative left was the pavnientof the w'lole civii list of Upper Canada out iS, and it is much to bo deplored (iiovernmeut should have jjersovered so lon to flip rii>^hts and f«oliii. If no reinody was ohtairiiibit? in Ciinada, an appeal should huvo been hooiht madt' to Parliament. f^nA j^j,rnrft thi! soi'w NhoiiM not liavo l>oou allowed to fester till the English and tho I'reneli * £,n„ po|)tilatton have heen almost l»ro«j»^Vt into collision, and a wider separation between them m opinion on all matters of internal povornraont and lej{:islatit>n been rather enconra^-od i than checked. Assembly after Assen>l)ly have been called tt>'jfoth(ht8 and just |..*etenMionsto share in the power of renrulatinnf the «'ommerce of the St. Lawrence and iu the taxation of thecouit- try. The Upper Lejjislatnre will never be contented while this power is exclusively exer- cised by tlie Lower, and this dilRculty is only now be^fiiminjr. Thev have been on bet- ter terms witli their executive (lovernment, but the Committee shouhf also, be informed of any jjointsof rievan«'e I luulerstand still existiu"-, an Act ©fold standin;r, enabliiiff the administratiiuj to send out of the couiitry all persons aainst it. lam afraid you must expect jea- lousy and opposition in tne Assembly while you are so careful to keep up those feeliuffs by insistiner Canada are members of the church of Enjfland, as of the population of Ireland. The mischief of i)ro- vidinw by enormous jjrants or reserves of land tor t!ie maintenance of an exclusive establisli- inent is beffinniujf to be felt in every direction, and unless they are arrested with a Htroujf band, and put down by some nrranj^enient conciliatory to the wishes and feelinijrs of tho people, tliere can be no hope of peace or (piiet. Ishould add, the same objections press to tho clerjry reserves, as they are called in Lower Canada, and the whole sidtject, as respects both provinces, cannot too soon or too decidedly be dealt with by Parliament. There is another siibjcctthat requires the anxious attention of the (Committee, the present composition and the constitution of the Le^rislativo (!oun(Mls in both provinces ; and on this head I may ob- serve, it is much more easy to find objections than to provide remedies. The Council of Lower Canada, as at present constituted, contains a lar}(e proportion of the su]>erior French proprietors. An objection has been taken to the judu'es beiiij; members, and on general principles that objeutiou is n ell founded ; salaried uflicers of the Govcruiucnt have been U ulna *••' Ellice, ire. .(A if MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward Ellice, *'*'<* objected to, as dependant on the executive authority ; but then the question is, Esquire. where are you to find in the present circumstances of the country councillors not liable to r-f ^ — » some such objections ?— I ao not believe many additions could be made from the French 15 May, 1828 proprietors qualified by sufficient attainments and independence, and the trading part of the community are prevented, by the causes I have statea, from becoming permanently inte- rested in real property. Otherwise the most intelligent and efficient members might be found among tne merchants, and it is a curious and rather instructing fact, as connected with this case, that the French population have never had much share in the trade of the 1 I' country. Are there no resident English proprietors ? — No EnglishTapitalist is induced to vest his property permanently in Lower Canada, although nearly the whole trade, and all the capital employed init, and profits derived from it, are in the hands of the English inhabi- tants ; and I should say, since the American revolution, there is scarcely an instance of any French Canadian occupying any considerable or permanent station in the commerce of the country. It would be therefore extremely difficult at present to remedy the defects, ad- mitting them to be such, in the constitution and composition of the Councils. That it would be most desirable, if practicable, no person will doubt, who observes how little ir''^ pendencethis body has at any time shown of the executive authorities. Are the majority of them in office ?— I think they are. 'A liiit ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. $1 Edward EUkt Esquire. Sabbaiif 11 ^ . die Maij. 1828. Edward Ellice, Esquire, a^in called in ; and examined. Arc you at all acquainted with the Courts in which justice is administered in Lower Canada? — I am acquainted a little witli them, but it is a long time since I have been in the country. ^ .... Arc they so arranged as that, in your opinion, the British law can be effectively admi-^^ nistered in them ; or are the y principally adapted to the administration of the Frepch law ? — 17 Moy, 1 8:^8. I should think that depends very much upon the qualifications of the judges. I have never heard of any complaint on this subject ; and I know some of thejudges, now on the bench in Canada, who are respectable and able men, and perfectly qualified in public opinion . for the office they fill. Do jou mean qualified to administer the English law as well as the French ? — It would be very difficult to say who are entirely qualified to administer the French law. If per- sons who have been educated, and have practised afi the bar in Lower Canada, are noi ' qualified to admimster that law, I know not where they are to be found ; the principles and practice in France having been essentially altered since the Revolution. The English judo^es are, I have said, qualified to administer the English law. 5o thejudges principally consist of persons \yho have practised at the bar in Lower Canada ? — I believe so, generally, in Lower Canada. Are there frequent appeals to this country from the decisions in Lower Canada ?— There are freqijent appeals ; and they are encoiu^ed by the uncertainty which prevails with respect to decisions under the French law ; there being no settled pi'actic-e to refer to in Europe on the subject. Do the inhabitants of the townships complain that the courts are so constituted that the English law, under which the innabitants of the townships live, is not easily and ef- fectively administered ? — I am not aware of the particular complaints of those persons, but I can easily conceive, from the distance and difficulty of communication, great obsta- cles exist to the administration of the law in the townships. Is it within your knowledge that a court with very limited jurisdiction lias litely been established within the townships, held at the town of Sherbrooke,iu which the Etiglish law alone is administered ?-r-I have understood so. Have you any reason to think that' an enlargement of the powers of that court, o." of any other court within the townships for the administration of English law, would be \n im- provement ? — I am quite satisfied that nothing would tend so much to the settlement and civilization of the country, as the adoption of a simple, cheap and efficient system for the administration of justice. Do you consider that the establishment of a registry of the titles of estates would be a very great improvement in Lower Canada ?— I stated in my former ekaminntioh that the want of such a registry was one of the main impediments to the improvement of Lower Canada, and I cannot too strongly impress upon the Committee the difficulties now caused in titles of all descriptions by the want of such registry. I believe no person would* be advised to make any considerable purchase in Lower Canada, M-ithout taking the secu- rity of a sheriff's sale, which removes all incumbrances. It is impossible to ascertain what acts may have passed affecting it in various notaries offices ; and a sale by the sheriff is a proceeding involving sometimes an expense equal to a large proportion of the estate. Would it be possible, if a register-office were established, that all the different transac- tions relating to estates, which nave heretofore taken place before notaries, could now be- come matters of record ? — It would be very difficult, unless parties desirous to establish a dear title to their property would take pains for that purpose ; and the interest of the notaries, a very influential cla<;9 among the French Caoadians, is opposed to any reform of this description. • Would 1 \ -'M t^n I ■m '^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward Ksqiii pir , Would that opposition probably be {greater to a retrospective enactment than it would re. be even to a prospective one ? — 1 do not conceive that. The notary would only be iuter- ^ e.sted by the reform interfcrinff with new business, or acts passed beforo him. »7 M»y 1828. .Supposincr a registration M'ere enacted by law, miyht-it not be possible to operate re trospcctively upon property affected by notarial acts, by imposinj; nenal ('onsejjuences up- on any party wlio effected a mortjjajje with re«fistration, in a case where prior liens created by themselves, or existinjy to their knowledge, existed upon that property ? — I should think it would be much more easy to provide some reoulations, in a bill estublishiiiir courts of record, for tailing in existing incumbrances. If the party recording a title or a mortgage of property not previously registered, was obliged to give public notice several times in the gazettes, as is done in cases of administration in Chancery, and to siffix notices ia • ■ ' courts of justice, there could be little hardship in excluding claims after a certain po- riod, and passing the record in fiivour of the applicant. There could be less dilliciilty ■ ., . _•„■ • about free and common soccage titles on binds, of which a mutation of tenure had taken Elace, as there tfie possessor of the propcfrty would have in the iirst instance to establihh is title. Is it consistent with your own knowle(1ge,-^hat many perilous wljo come out with the in- tent to settle in Lower' Canada, have been induced from the dilliculties that obstructed them to pass over the boundiiry and settle in the United States? — There can be no doubt of it. I have had, in particular instances, two or three successions pf British and American tenants uj)on the same land, who, after experience of tlie French tenure and restrictions ' have abandoned their improvements, which my agents have re-entered into possession of, and sold to a considerable profit. Under what circumstances is a forced sJile by the sheriff effected ? — Judgment under a decree of the courts. Is it used as a mode of conveyance ? — I cannot state that of ciy own knowledge ; but if I intended, under present circumstances, to purchase pro{)erty in Canada, I should bo very desirous it should pass through the sheriff's bauds to ensure a title. Are not the papers full of notices of such sales for that purpose V — As I have said be- fore, I cannot say of my own knowledge tliat tliey are for t at jiurpose, but tliere is a gen- eral indisposition to accept of titles whi('li have not undergone the ordeal of legal process. Would not the easiest way to establish a register be to pass an Act requiring thivt witi in a certain period all mortgages now existing should be registered, in dcliuilt; of which they d' ould become null and void ? — That was the ])urport of an answir I have already given ; but I should add, the Canada Tenures Act of 1825, deciding the (juestion as to the law af- fecting free and common soccage lands, will give considerable facility to sncl> a mea- sure. Do you suppose that in the desire which the inbabitants of the townships feel tolavc the laws of England introduced into Canada, they wish for t^ e English law of primogeniture, and for the English forms of conveyancing, or for the laws of linglaud, as they exist in the United States? — AA a matter of opinion I shojild have no doubt t'c laws of England, m administered in the United States, were much better adapted to the circumstances of Ca- nada, but I am not aware that any opinion upon t! at subject has been expressed in tlie country. Are not the forms of conveyancing infinitely cheaper and simpler in the State of New York for instance, than they are according to the English system V I tliink the substitution of the English form of conveyancing would much aggravate the present evil, and it would be difficulttosay whether the continuance of the present st.ite of tilings, or such a remedv, would be the greater infliction. Nothing can be more simple or secure than the system of conveyancing in the State of New York, where the deed is generally written on half a sheet of foolscap paper, and when recorded, with the fiat of the judge or master in chan- cery, it is immaterial Mhat becomes of the original deed itself, t can furnish to the Com- mittee several conveyances of this description for large tracts of land, and very valuable considerations, that they may judge of the advantages of the Americm system. You are aware that inthe petitionto She House of Commons from the townships, tl'ey pray for separate courts for the purpose of administering English law inthe townships ; is it your opinion that the existing courts might be so modified as to make those 8eparat« courts unnecessary ? — I believe the present judges have full employment without being |ieutt|pou circuits into the townships. Their number must therefore either be increased, , ■ or ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ^d m it would y be iuter- »porate rc« uonct's up. JUS created lotild think T courts of a mortga>re [il times in notices iii Ltertain pe- s dilficulty > had taken to cstubliish ivith the in- obstructed be no doubt d American restrictions ossessiou of, » icut under a jdnre ; but if I should be ave said bc- »re is a geu- gal process, r that witi in f wliich tliey oady frivcn ; o the law iif- nch a moa- to I ave the ino<>eniture, exist in the nglaiid, aM uces of Ga- ssed in tlie hite of New ! on explain why you stated in your preceding answer, that you think it desirable to dispose of the whole of them immediately, although you say that tlie sale of 100,000 acres per anniunis not practicable ? — One half the clergy reserves in Upper Canada were sold to the Canada Company at a price greatly exceeding, if not nearly double, their value in money ; and still the church, oissatisfied with the sale, prevailed upon the Colonial Depiu-tment m put a stop to the arrangement. I am certain it is in vain to expect an- other such opportunity of disposing of them, or at least the mass of them, on terms satis- factory to the clergy, while land is granted almost for nothing to actual settlers in the country. lu my former answer, I said I would give away the lands if I could not *eU tliem. Upon what grounds do you consider that the clergy in the Canadas will never consent to f.'.i .n- 5« MINUTIiS OF EVIDENCE BEFORR SELECT COMMITTEE Edward Ellice *® *'*^® of those reserves, as you are ]>rob«bly aware that it has been comraunicated to them Eiquir*. that all assistance from this country w ill cease ? It was full time such communication should i^be made to them. I strongly recommended it on their first objection to the award of the May, 1828. commissioners, and then predicted an early repentance on their part of the course they had taken. There is no hope of their effecting a sale of 100,000 acres annually, or a quar- ter of the quantity ; and I sliould much doubt their finding settlers for that quantity if They do nothing out one shilling to of encourage settlers. They neither make capital. They desire to reap without they gave away the land, roads, build mills, or lay sowing. If then 100,000 acres cannot be sold in a year, in what manner do you recommend that all the icserves should be disposed^of immediately ? — I think it would bo evidently better that some reasonable composition should be made with the church, and that the whole grant of land now in a state of mortmain should be resumed. Where is the distinction between a composition made with the church, and a sale at the price at which the lands will fetch ?— 2-Tiie comuosition should be very moderate ; and the country migitt not be indisposed to undertake a small general tax to get quit of the nuisance. The free grant oi^the land to industrious settlers would be a great encourage- ment. I have understood also, in the late bill, provision has been made for tlie investment of the money arising from the sale of the church lands in the English funds, for the benefit and security of tlie clergy. Surely the framers of that Act mu^i have overlooked the addi- tional objection of draiuing from the small capital of the country any part of it for this in- vidious purpose. In the present state of things, with those clergy reserves now all marked out, how would you recommend that the most advantageous disposal of them should be made ? — I have already said, that I thiuk the most advantageous disposal of them, :f sales were impracti- cable to the extent stated, would be by granting them gratuitously to industrious persons, who might be inclined to settle, and undertake the road duties upon them. You^ave said that a composition should be entered into with the clergy, how could that composition be effected, excent by a direct expense from this country ? — Beyond the means I have suggested, some mignt be raised from particular parts of the clergy reserves in tl>e immediate vicinity of old cultivated lands, but they are to small extent. Thegreat masses of clergy reserves are either interspersed with the new settlements, to the great an- noyance and injury of the settlers, or in parts of thp country where there is no chance of purchasers offering for them, at ai y price, for the next ten or twenty years. Are you aware w^th regard to that sale of 100,000 acres per annum, which was consider- ed as great a sale as could be calculated upon from year to year, that part of the arrauf^c- ment is that the proceeds of it should be applied to opening roads ? — In the first place, I deny the possibility of selling 100,000 acres a year to settlers; but this should not detract from t'e liberality and good intention of the cliirch in devoting their property to so praiseworthy and charitablea purpose. It would certainly be a more bcneficiiil employ- ment of the money for the country, than sending it home for investment in the funds. Are you aware that the Act of 1791 appropriated oue seventh part of the land of those provinces to the maintenance of a Pi'otestant clergy ? — I am. And you are aware that at present it has been a disputed point whetl cr under the term " Protestant clergy," it applies exclusively to the clergy pf the Church of England, or al- so to the clergy ot the Church of Scotland ?• — I am quite aware of the feeling that exists in the country upon that subject, and of the clnime of the different sects of Protestant Chris- tians to participate in this fund; but hitherto the Church of England and the Colonial Of- fice liave agreed in their construction of the Act for the exclusive benefit of the ministers of that church, and there is a general impression in the minds of the people of the deter- mination to establish the Engliish church as the predominant and exclusively endowed church in that country, to wnich you can never expect their willing assent. On what account ?. — Because the majority of the population are not members of the Established Church, far the greatest proportion being dissenters; and you may run the risk of increasing the evil by any attempt to make a separate and distinct provision for the Church of Scotland, if you do not at the same time[ provide for the claims other de- scriptions of Protestants conceive themselves entitled to, under the Act of 1791. In what way are the ministers of tBe Scottish church now supported in Canada ?— I belicTt ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. if& believe some small aUo^vances are made by Government, but that no part of such allow. anccs are now derived from the reserved lands for the Protestant church in Canada. '' ' Are you aware «hat is the amount in money of the whole proceeds that annually arise from the reserves in Canada, as applicable to the English dergy ? — I suppose tlu'y must Edward Ellke, be trifling, but they would have been very considerable if the transaction that I have al- Ksquire. luded tolbetween the Canada Company and the Crown for the sale of the Reserves, had « '" « been carried into eft'ect. I understand part of the allowances made to the Scotch clerL'y '"^ ^'y* "*-"• have been paid for out of other Government lands sold to the Canada Company by the Crown, which is not unlikely to excite additional jealousy on the part of other Protestant con^egations, as a further application of the public money exclusively to the benefit of the "church of Scotland. In what way have the ministers of dissenting congelations, other than the Church of Scotland, been provided for in Canada ? — I beheve by the voluntary support of their com- municants. Are you aM'are of cases in which there has been a provision made for the Church of En- gland where there has been a predominance of other persuasions ? — I have stated it to be so made in Upper Canada, whei u there is a predominance of other persuasions. My opi- . nion of the predominance of other persuasions is founded upon a resolution of the Assem- bly, declaring that the established religion of the Church of England was not the religion of the majority of the inhabitants. Upon a division in the Assembly on this resolution, I understand the majority was about 38 to 4 or 5, in favour of it. Is Upper Canacb generally divided into parishes ? — I should think not yet, it is scar'Mjly divided mto counties. In what way are the Clergy of the Church of England apportioned to any particular di «- trict or any particular portion of the inhabitants? — I do not know how they iu-c apportion- ed, but the clergy of the Church of England have other advantages. They receive con- siderable allowances from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, the greater por- tion of whose funds arise from an annual grant of the British Parliament. Do you know, in point of fact, how the clergy of the Church of England are paid ?■>- The payments they now receive must be either from Government, or from such portioui of the insignificant fund hitherto derived from the sale or rent of the clergy reserves, or from allowances from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel ; for I am afraid they would have little chance of provision, in the present state of feeling, from any voluntaiy payment on the part of the inhabitants. Are the lands which you describe as clergy reserves held by the clergy in the same way as the church property here is held, or as glebe lands are held ; or are they held by the Government, and the proceeds of them applied to the payment of the clergy ? — I be- lieve they are held by the Church as a corporation, and that no division or apportionment has as yet taken place. This corpoi^tion at present act under the control of the late re- gulations, and I have heard they rely mainly on the support of the English bishops to protect their exclusive claims against any attempt on tne part of Government to alter the nature of the property, or to provide for the claim of other sects to participate in it. Looking at the provisions of 1791, with respect to the cler^ and to thie manner in which those lands have been set apart, and to the difficulties which surround the subject, what is in your opinion the best course to be taken ? — I think it of very little importance under what title, or by the provisions of what Act of Parliament, these lands have been Ket apart for the maintenance of an exclusive church in Canada. I am satisfied that all legislation with respect to a conciliatory adjustment of the difficulties existing in that countnr will be in vain, unless some mode is devised of putting an end to the title of the Church in these lands, and substituting some other provision for them. _ Is not a large portion of the land that is held as clergy reserves granted out in small por- tions over the surface of the country, and would it not be more convenient that those small portions should be exchanged for some large mass elsewhere ? — Nothing can be more in- convenient or more injurious to the industrious population than the mode in which these re- serves have been laid out. Detached portions of each township intervening between the oc- cupations of actual lettlers, who have no means of cutting woods through roads and moras- ses 1 a 41 ' 1 A '!^ _ it MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOftE SELECT COMMITEE Edward Ellice,»W seftarating them from their neighbours. Thoy retard more than any other circumstanre Eiquire. the cultivation and improvement of the country. I do not ttiinic, I owcver, in tlio pro. ♦"-""•^^ »sent state of feeling in Upper Canada, it would be very expedient to attempt to remedy 17 May, 1828. t|,jg defect by setting apart other lands in larger grants as a provision for the clergy. You have alluded to a contract that was entered into by the Canada Company with Go* '■ ' Temment for the" purchase of those lands, and also for portions oftlie Crown reserves, will you be so good as to describe what the nature of that contract was ? — In ray opinion it Was the most inconvenient contract that could have been made for the parties on both ' • sides. The object of the Colonial Office was to obtain a considerable sura of money from the sale of land, and by the establishment of the company to encourage the transmission of capital for the improvement of Upper Canada. I am afraid, unless great caution is ob- served in the appropriation of the tund to be soreceived,it willbccomeanothersource ofgrit^- rai^ce and complaint, and I do not think that objection likely to be diminished by the grant of any part of it as a provision for the ministers of any particular denomination, or for the foundation or endowment of schools or colleges on exclnsive principles. The better policy would have been to grant to the company a more moderate quantity of land for a small price or for nothing, on condition of tlieir expending double its assumed value in settling and improving it. By this means one point of contention might liave been avoided, and the Government ft^ould liave had at its free disposal four-tifths of tlie reserves to grant and settle by otiier methods, while I am satisfied the Canada Company would have done better by confining its firdt undertaking within its probable means of inuuugemcnt ; ns it is, I fear great part of the funds hitherto received have been expended in uunecesi>ai y expenses attending the execution of the contract. Can you state what quantity of land was conveyed to the Canada Company ? — In tlio first instance, half the Clergy and all the Crown reserves in the townships which had been laid out and admeasured in Upper Canada, to be paid for or taken up in a series of year^. What number of years was allowed? — Fifteen years. Is it likely that they would be able to take up the quantity of land they contracted for in that space of time ? — In consequence cf an alteration in the contract, rendered neces- sary by the objection of the clergy to the award of the commissioners appointed to valiio their lands, great difficulties have been experienced by the company in compIetin«»' their arrangements, and a new negociation was resorted to, to remove those difficulties. Do you know what value the commissioners . put upon the land? — I thiuk the prirc awarded by the commissioners, for between 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of acres under tlio original contract, belonging to the Crown and the Church, was 3s. 3d. currency an am-, the currrency being ten per cent less than sterling, and the Company gave tliat prico for the Crown reserves. Did any contract take place under that valuation for the church reserves? TIio Church, as I have stated before, refused to abide bv the valuation after it had been awarded by the coinmissioners, and their refusal, as I have also stated, led to th<^ great- ' est difficulty on the part of the company, a difficulty which, with respect to the com- pletion of their contract, they may jet have great trouble in conquering. Tiovernment acquiesced in the refusal however, and after much discussion, and a submission to coun- sel on some technical point, urged by the Church in support of their objection, the directors agreed to release the Government from that part of the contract, and a new Eant of a block of land, to the extent of 1,000,000 of acres on the borders of Lake uron, was substituted for the clergy reserves j Government agreeing that a larije proportion of the price to be paid for the new grant should be laid out in nuking roaa^, ,. ana in other improvements upon the property. ' • Is any sum of money annually paid by the company to the Crown ?— I think two years payment, to the extent of nearly ^640,000 has been either paid or directed to be paid by the company on account of this purchase, and the other payments will go on, • according to the present agreement, at the rate of from £15,000 to £20,000 a year, until the whole of the purchase, exceeding £350,000 is paid, or such part of it "as I have before adverted to, laid out in the improvement of the new grant. Have the company power to alienate land in fee ? — Certainly, they have ; but questions » are now depending between the Government and the Company, and altogether it is not a very clear case, lu my opinion, that the obstacle interposed by the refusu of the clergy te ON THE CIVIL (H)VKRKMENT OF CANADA. 67 lo concur in the award of the commissioners may not lead to further and jp*avpr ditVi- SiiuMrd Htief, Ciilties. Jisqnir*. Is there any fixed annual pa> ment to ho made hy the Canada Company ?— They must' " ' ■-^~— — » ^ke up land to the extent of jE 15,000 annually. " M«y 1828. Are they bound to continue the payment after they have taken up all the land ? — No, trhen they have paid for it, they have a free title to it. You are aware that instructions were issued to the commissioners that valued this laud, rhich instructions were approved of both by the Canada Company and the (Jovcrnracnt y -I am quite aware that instructions of that description were sent, and more unwise structions, althoufjh they were agreed upon by the Company and the Crown, never rere issued to any set of commissioners. Are you aware that a question arose whether the Commissioners had executed those structions, and that a reference was made to a professional eontleman upon the subje(;t V -As there could be no ascertained principle upon which the Commissioners could exe- cute their instructions, their award was of course open to every kind of Objection rhich either party chose to take to it ; but I do not think the particular objection ten by the Crown or the Clerjify could have been maintained on reference to any two sen in Great Britain, of competent knowledgfe or habits of business in such tran- sactions. Was not such a case as that, in which from the circumstances no absolutely defined principle could be established, precisely a case in which arbitration mi^fht be resorted to, to the fact whether the fair principle of the instructions issued to the Commissioners kad been satisfied? — As I never could understand the principles laid down in the structions, which directed the Commissioners to value between two and three millions bf acres of wild land in a country where in fact it could have no real value for money, \o sale of any quantity of land amounting^ even to 10,000 acres, having, in my recol- ection, ever previously taken place, I cannot see what limit could Iiave been imposed the discretion of the Commissioners, or what other rule than the most visionary [lenulation could Irnve i^uided their award. Certain I am, they did more than ample stice to both Country and Church. Although you may be of opinion that nothing could be more absurd than those instruc- lons, were they not approved by the majority of those interested in the formation of le Canada Company V — The commission itself, and the instructions, were both ap- proved of by the TBojority of the Directors of the Canada Company. It was projected . the first instance by most respectable persons, but who knew as much of Canada they did of Japan. You are understood to have stated to the Committee, as your opinion, that this sale If land to the Canada Company, for which ultimately the sum of £350,000 is to bo eceived, had better have been given as a donation to the Company, subject to imposing ettleraent duties for the genertu improvement of the Province ; are you not aware that Ine of the avowed objects of that sale was, to relieve the British Parliament from tho |ecessity of voting an annual estimate for the Civil Government of Upper-Canada ?— have not stated that between tvvo and three millions of acres of land had better be iven to any company or any body in Upper-Canada; but I stated at the time, and kressedmy opinion on both pai'ties, that if half a million of acres had been so given, Ir sold at a moderate price, without all the expensive and unsatisfactory process of an itempt to valu$ that which in fact was otherwise unsaleable, and the company had been 9uild to lay out a portion of their capital in the impro\ ement of that halif million of cres, the arrangement would have been a very beneficial one for the country. I do not ee the necessity which was imposed upon the Government of disposing of this land or the payment of the Civil List of Upper-Canada, nor am I aware that the money kas been hitherto so applied ; but there could be no occasion to resort to such a source ft revenue, supposing it to have been disadvantageoiis in other respects, inasmuch as |he ordinary revenue received on the trade of Canada has been always perfectly lequate, or might have been made perfectly adequate to the discharge of the Civil Lists ^f both Provinces. You are understood to state, that by proper management the revenue of Upper- Canada H ffi 1 M 'M I, ' 'ill MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward EUic* Canada would Imvo b«»nn suiHcieut for tho m.iiiitcnanco of her Civil List; will \on Esquire. bn good enough to detail in what manner thaf could bo oflforttMl ? — It <;ould hnvo hwn t A-, .. , effected either by increasinff the duties upon importation at Quebec, upon articles con- 17 May, 1888. sumcdin Upper-Canaua, or by giving her a fair portiou of the revenue generally collected at Quebec. Are you not awaro that the British Government could not, for the mere and avowed purposeH of revenue, have imposed custom duties in Lower-Canada for the sake of in- creasing the revenue of Upper-Canada, and enabling her to discharge her civil list ?— / I am aware that the greatest possible object ons exist in principle to their doing ko; but I am also aware that in point of fact thc^ have got over those objections, and, by the ' Cani>.da Trade Act, have imposed duties to an extent quite equal to the expense of the Civil Government of boch Provinces, without consulting either of the Provincial Le. gislaturcs. The Canada Trade Act, for this purpose, had been passed three years befori; the arrangement with the Canada Company. Are jou not aware that this country has no power to regulate the distribution of revenue between Upper and Lower-Canada, except upon tlie principle of arbitration between the two provinces, and that the result of t at arbitration has been to give Upper Canada a proportion of revenue not adequate for the maintenance of that establishment? —After all, the question resolves itself into what is the fit amount of the expenditiue i ' of the Civil Government, and what deliciencv it wiis necessar , and advisable to snppli i and whether that deficiency has been supplied from tins fund ; and I should be able to I give an opinion upon that subject when I saw the application of the monies hithorto received from the Canada Company. I think, for the satisfaction of the Coramittcp, they had better obtain a return of the amount of money received from the Company, miJ I of the application of it, up to this time. Can you inform the Committee whether, in the sctt'ements of the townships, thf I persons belonging to the different denominations of religion have collected in diiTe- rent districts, or are tliey generally intermingled ? — They are scattered all over t « I country. Were not the boundaries of Upper and LoHX'r-CanaJa settled in coneequence of the | provisions of the Act of 1791 ? — Thov were. In your opinion, has the boundary line between the two provinces been drawn ron- veniently for the t'lo provinces; or is the division so arranged as to give lise to very I conflicting interests and separate feelings bet ' een them ? — The division altogether «as most unfortunate, and has completely verified t'le predictions of its consequences, made at ^he time by the .igent of Canada, and bv all the "itnesses examined at tne bar of t!ie I House. The result, so far, of maintaining distinctions between t*vo cla-sses of subjects, has produced no proof of its policy. As to the p:irticular boundar. or division of" tor. ritory, t'lat is very immaterial, and I do not believe you could satisfy either partj ij I the general questions now under discussion b. any alteration in that respect. In point ot fact, h:u>i not a vcr^ strong collision of feeling, and a sense of difference of I interest arisen between the inha itants of tie two provinces? — The greatest possible collision of interest has arisen on t'ie subject of the revenue ; and unfortunately' there in every reason to apprehend it is only now at its beginning. Will )OU be so good as to statu the principal grounds of difference that exist betiTcen the two provinces ? — The principal ground is, the pretension set up by the French L^ gislature at Quebec to regulate the trade of the St. Lawrence, and to levy all duties upon tlie exportation or importation of commodities either going from or to every part - • 01 Canada, without consulting the Upper-Province on this point of deep and vital importance to its inhivbitants. This grievance will of course be more deeply felt as the hitherto rapid settlement of Upper-Canada, encouraged by more liberal institutions, and a better state of law, progressively advances. The Franc i population of the Lover Province have not increased or improved tlieir condition in any respect in proportion to that of the English population either in Upper or in Lower-Canada, nor is there an? I reason to believe that their numbers or their interest in the country « ill in future increase | in proportion to the increase that must take place in both colonies in British inhabi- tants and British capitaL As the British interest increases in either province, a com- 1 munity of feeling will necessarily lead to their closer connection together | and I am I afraid,! ON' THE CIV IL OOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 10 afraid, if even it was the determination of Parliament to mnintoin the oficrndancy crone ^,/„,oy^ Ellict i;l:us» of the population of Low er-Citnadn, and their oxuliiNive pon em over the taxation Kiquiru. and commerce of t'le countrv, the British itihahituntfl of both Provinces would, at no , ,^. .. ^ distant time, look to some other mcuuM of relieviue commissioners in apportioning the revenue. Some complaint, I liave also understood, was made of a tax levied by the Assembly at Quebec, on rafts of timber cominv down the llapids from Upper-Canada, for the purpose of improving the navinration, and that the money so levied was never expended on tliat object; otherwise the inhabitants have free injn-ess and egress for all their commodities, subject of course to sucli regulations and duties as the Low er Legislature tliiuk fit in their discretion to impose upon them. Arc any duties imposed upon any description of commodities on being exported from Canada V— Very trifling, if any. Are the duties which are collected upon goods imported into Quebec or Montreal, and wliic'i arc imposed and regulated by tiie Assembly oi Lower-Canada, influenced in a a certain degree by suc.i Acts ns have passed in tliis country for the purposes of regula- ting the trade? — I have stated, in a previous part of my examination, tnat the disputes l)i>t»een the provinces on matters connected witli their joint revenue, led to the Canada Trade Act of 1822; and bv the provisions of that Act the most valuable part of the constitutional functions of both t;e Colonial Legislatures are in effect abrogated. That Act passed almost unanimously in Parliament, and received the especial support of those who opposed the union bill. Considering the respective habits and manners of t!ie inhabitants of Lower and of Upper-Canada, would not an> system of import duties be likely to affect the two classes ver\ diffcrentl*, as to the hurt .en that they would produce upon each? — I should think not; and I am quite sure if the case vas otheruise, the better po icy would be to avoid uU dlstiuetions. Do yon tliink t' at it »^ould be best to enact such a system of custom duties as would, vitii reference to the articles upon wliich they were imposed, liave an equal bearing upon t' e population of t!ie two provinces ? — From the nature of the country it would be im- possible to do otlerw'ise, even if it «ere advisable. Is their consumption similar, from tl eir habits aud wants ? — I should tliink, in some respects, dissimilar. Tiie t^vo great articles upon which t*!e revenue is now raised, are rum and tea. T.e Frencli Canadians are probably the greater consumers of rum, and tlie En 17 Majr, 1828. place for all goods to be transferred to Upper-(3nuada, and to make any arrangement tlut should innuro the transnort of those goods iivto Upper-Canada, witl)Out any portion of them being transferred ror coMumptiou into the province of Lower-Canada ? — It would be quite impossible, and if the coso was otherwise, the restrictions and regulations od the trade of Upper-Canada would bo an intolerable nuisance. At present the mcrolianti and storekeepers in tite Upper IVovince puroliase their anniuil ussortments of supplin for their customers in the towns uud villages at Montreal. Very few goods are expurtod from this country direct for Upper-Canada. Montreal is the great mart throiigli which fur the larger proportion of the whole trade is and must continue to be conducted. If those circumstances make it necessary tliat the same rate of duty sliould be collected on all goods passing up the St. Lawrence, whether for the Upp«>r Province or for th« Lower, is it poenible to devise any s>stera of division and a|)propriation of the produce of the custom duties collected in the 8t. Lawrence, between the two provinces, which must not neces!Mrilr be fluctuating and imperfect; supposing a perfect proportion wore arranged this >cnr between the Upper and Louor Province, according to the respective consumption of the two provinces, must not that proportioo necessarily become imperfect in sunsequent yoam, from the vai lotion that would take place in the population and wealth of the two provinces IP — I am of opinion any such system is impracticable, and would only load to renewed coinplaintt and diNputcs. We have already some proof of this in tiie difficulties that have iiitherto attended tlie at- tempts to devise a satisfactory mode of reference between the two provinces. Iiuve the goodness to describe those difficulties ? — Referees were appointed by the i two Governments previously tetlie Act of 1822, to decide upon tlie proportion to which Upper-Canada was entitled of the total revenue raised at Quebec. Upon some dif. ference or obstacle arising to an adjustment, the Legislature of Lower-Canada refused to grant the necessary powers to enable the Government to proceed in the arrancre- ment, and the Upper Province was tlirowu upon this country for the means of pacing her civil list. If the parties were ever so well inclined to agree to a proportionate division, would not such oivision in itself nccessarilv be imperfect ?-~-Certainly it would ; and without meaning to state any opinion myself on the point, the fact s'lould not be withheld from i the Committee, that a general impression prevails among the English inliabitants engaged in the trade of both provinces, that tlie representatives returned to tlie House of An- sembly by the mass of uneducated Canadians, are not exactly the persons best qualitied to decide on questions connected witii the trade, or revenue affecting it; and this ini* pression does not tend to diminish the objections to their exclusive power of legislation on this subject. If you were called upon to divide t^o customs duties collected between two province*, upon what principle would you form sudi a division i* — It is impossible to divine a princi- ple upon which one could make a satisfactory division. If you were able oven to arrive at some tolerable estimate of tlie consumption of particular commodities in the two pro- vinces, that would be no great assistance. There are other consumers, and to r siderablo extent, of comipodities on which duties are levied at Quel n tbe Lower Province have no greater claim than the Upper to any addition ^ muie from the general trade of the St. Lawrence. Tlie duties levied ou the tra .veeii tlie oolonies and their neighbours form part of the mass. Whatever proportion is fixed, must it not necessarily vary from time to in. ^ — It 'itst vary with the annual increase of the population, which, under present circuInstauce^ will go on in a much more rapid progress in the Upper Province. If one rate of customs duties must be collected in tlie revenue, and one mass of revenue { is collected, and no fair or equitable division is made between the two provinces, does it not necessarily follow that tliere must be one expenditure ? — That I take to be one of tbe most difficult points of this case. Supposing any idea to be entertained of re-uniting those provinces, I have always thought the more prudent course to adopt, and one which the pa- ramount object of preventing at first any coUisiou iu the united Legislature on the here. tofore I ON THB CIVIi OOVBRNMBNT OF CANADiL 61 toforo so|»arftt(» intcrenU of thepartips would justify, would be to fix tli« present rpvenut, jy^^afj ffm^^ mid a|)|)ly Hiii'li part of it, for ii cortiiia nuniWr ofyenro, ati would be nvceHsary to defray EM{uir«. ' tli«» fharifeH of the exiHtiiig civil liNt.s iu botli provinceH. ■* How could tliat object be cft'ected ? — hy adcqwitc proviMiouH in a bill for unitin||[ the Lc- 17 May I8.!tt. ffiilxtureM, Mpecifyiug' in the Mcliedulo to the bill, in minute dotail, the different char^oti to b« dt'fruyed, in such manner ho tlmt there Nhould be no ground for HUHpi(?ion that it wa. I tration, would be still Under the control of the LcgiNlature, and at the termination of tlie I limited period the full power of regulating the taxation and expenditure would revert to I them. Ikfore that time, it is to be hoped, all separate habit« and interests might be nearly I lout sight of, and the present collision of feelings and prejudices give way to a general de- sire to consult only the common good and the prosperity of the country iu tlie united Lo- I gislature. lias the House of Assembly of Upper Canada '^vcr expressed any wish for a union of th« improviuces ? — 1 liave not heard so, nor do I conceive the fact either Svay to be of much two portonce. The people and the Legislature are only desirous to participate in the exer- I rise of the undoubted riglit of the whole people to raise the revenue and regulate the com- moroe of tha country. In what way, in the case of the union, would vou provide for the more general services, and the rest of the revenue remaining after the disposal of the civil list ?— I would leave it I ut the free disposal of the united Legislature. I am perfectly satisfied, a governor of con- I ciliatory disposition, popular character and good sound sense, acting upon instructions I from this country, founded on liberal principles, would liave no difficulty in balancing and conciliating tiie different parties iu the Legislature, and procuring from them ample moults of improviL.^' the institutions, and promoting the general interests 6f both provinces. When tne union of the two provinces was proposed in Parliament, did not a feeling arise in Lower Canada extremely hostile to that measure ? — An adverse feeling certainly was expressed by the French populatiQU in Lower Canada, but not to a greater degrcu tlian was anticipated. Was not one of the grounds upon which that feeling was founded an apprehension tliat ^ under the circumstances of the union the provision for the maintenance of the Roman Catholic clergy might be endangered ? — There were several ill advised clauses in the bill. It \viU) suggested by the original proposers of the measure that some clause should be in- serted protecting the Catholic church and the rights of the clergy from all encroachment by any act of the new Legislature. This intention was not accomplished by the clause in thp Vet, which was construed by the clergy as directed hostilely against their establishment. Nothing could have been so contrary to the feeling witli whicli any mention of tlie church was suggested, and it would be consistent equally with justice and policy to provide dis- * tiuctly in any measure for uniting the colonies, against ul dangers the clergy may apprc- liend in this respect. Ea' h of those provinces having now a representative assembly, would it in your opinion such concerns as should be general to the two provinces ; among which may be enume- rated the collection of the revenue, great institutions for the purpose of defence, and the general application of the revenue, appointing to each of them a fixed civil list? — If it were possihle to satisfy the parties by any arrangement more than by the whole measure of a union, I sh' a union with more complex machinery ; and I doubt whether the objection of one individual in Lower Canada to any measure of this descri]>tion would be removed by it. The same difficulty would occur in apportioning the influence, of the two parties in the Congress, as in a Legislature common to both, and you must maiie some alteration in the *•»: ■| I i V .it.' C3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Edward y I :: ^//,-gj the constitution of the Assoralily of the Lower ProvIiifo,l>y t'ie admission of rcpresonta- re. tivcs from the townshijjs. Tlio {j^reat dosiJoratum is to infuse into t e If^ishitive body, uii- ,der whutover regulations it may be placed, persons of libcnil education, who may be able 17 ilay 1828. to counteract the iuilni'ncc of narrow habits and old prejudices in retardinjj the prosperity of the counti ; . Would not the ssimo objection exist if a lejrislative union took place ; would not t!ie effect necessarily be, upon similar principles, to exti'Uu tlie influence of t!ie Frencli Cana- dians to Upper Canada ? — Certniivy not, if \ouM'ere to unite tlie i\\r Led. Docs not the principle on which tie State of Vermont jjives an advantafjfe to a newly settled couutf), consist merely in ffivin-f tl e advantage of w bat is called the fraction to a ncwlv settled country, that is to sav, that there must be a cert;tiii nunnber of inhabitants in a township before it can lutve ojio member ; and when that is passed, l)eforetLev get to the nnuiber tiiat entitles them to tw o members, tiiey give t!iem wlat is called tlie fraction ? — That rule, I understand, only applies until tie number of tixablo inlabitants arrives at 80, when tie representation of tlio township is complete. The great advantage the new settler has in tins principle of representation is, that the first 80 inhabitants have by tlieir two members as nmcli iufluenco in the Assembly as a population of fifty times the amount in the old settled townships ; and this advantage has been given to extend and encourage the cultivation of tlie couutp% Did not the bill brought in by the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, at the same time that it provided for t!ie increjise of representation in the townships, founded Upon the increase ofpopuhition, extend that same ]>riuciple of increase to tlie seigneuries wiiich are now already represented, whereas in the State of Vermont no increase of the representa- tion took place in tlie already represented districts when new districts came into t'ue re- presentation ? — Upon recollection, 1 tMnk, the first was so. The bill sent up by tlie As- sembly for the increase of their numbers would have admitted four orfive members from the to"nsliips, and added about 20 from the seigneuries ; in short, only aggravating tl 6 evil, under pretence of liber.alit\ to the townships. Canyon state any other grounds of objection wliic'i have been urged to t'le union of the two provinces besides those wiiich you have alluded to? — I lave heard of no ot'ier grounds ; but it is quite impossible tiicre should not be a gi-eat difference of opinion on a subject affecting in so many wavs the paitticuFar interests, hotii of individuals and j)iirties. For instance, persons residing at Quebec, and at Yoidc in Upper Canada, may neit. or ap- prove of ♦he removal of the Legislature to Mouti'cal, supposing that to be t'.e proper place, if a union should be decided upon. Are you aw are what increase of population has taken pl.icc among the French Cana- dians since the year 1791 ? — A very considerable increase lias taken phice, but not in pro- portion to the increase in the En^-lish population inbot'i countries. Are t io elections at Montreal and Quebec in the French or Fnglls'i interest ? — Every election depends on the French interest ; and I doubt verymuc'i wi et' er t eio v.ould bo asingle English representative returned if ti:ere v.erea new election to-morro"'. Even in the commercial towns V — Even in the commercial towns. T. e elections also depend in a great 'netisure on tlie influence of the cler^'y. Is the right of suffrajje universal in tl'ose towns ¥ — I for'^'ct what t"e riirht of suffrage is. I proposed in the Union Bill that the right of suffrage in counties should bd 6/. a year, and the right in the towns 10/. a year. Do t!ie Protestants in the seigneuries pay tithes to the Catholic clergy ? — They pay no tithe, they contribute in no way to the suppoit of any n\inister except voluntarily. Do not the Catholics pay tithes to their piistors ? — Cat'olics are compelled by law io par tithes. Protestants are exempt from a'l claims of this description. t)o you conceive it would be ])ossible and desirable to erect either of the great to" ns into a free port, and tlie duties sheiild be levied upon the issue of goods from sii<-h free port, in proportion as t'ey went out to one province or the other, or would that give a facility to smuggling? — The restriction would be very unfair to otiier districts of the country, and prejudicial to the general trade, and it m ouhl be impossible to prevent smuggling on so great an extent of navigation. Cannot vessels sailing up the river land at any point ? — Certainly. At present all ve - Edwnrd F.llke, 1 y ' V I' I Gi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE .iiiiii 'i ■,';;' i 1 ■ 1 1 Edward EUke, sels enter at Quebec ; but if bound to Montreal, the consip^ee only gives bond at Que. Eiquire. bee, and pays the duty aftcrw ards on dischanring at Montreal. ♦ " ^— — > Do you conceive it would be possible to form a representation upn the principle of ad. 17 May, 1828, mitting some of the great towns as independent bodies into a confederation, such as exist* in the north of Germivny ? — I am afraid it is too late to attempt the introduction of new principles of that kind in America. You must either improve tlic system tl'at exists on the model of our institutions at home, or copy from the simpler forms in practice in the United States. No other method ^ill be congenial to the habits of the English or Ameri- can inhabitants of Canada. Would it be easy to circumscribe such a district as should embrace little more than tlie French population, if you wished to throw them into a separate province, forming a part of a confederation ? — I do not see much difficulty in forming a separate establishment for the French, if you deprive them of their exclusive control over the legislation affecting the trade and revenue, and introduce satisfactory reforms to the English inhabitants m the tenures of property and the laws ;but all these alterations would produce equal dissatisfac- tion with anymore general arrangement, and do what you will to maintain the present distino tions, the progress of civilization, the increase in power of the inhabitants of the countries 'Watered by the St. Lawrence, and the probable march of events in America, will be eternally counteracting your views, and in the end lead to the necessity of more decided measures. I wish to add, that in any thing that may have fallen from me in the course of these exami- nations, I have not had the least intention of imputinn; blame to any persons connected with the executive Government in either province. I believe they have acted under in- structions from this country, and that the difficulties they have had to contend with, aud the discussions in which they have been involved with the Colonial Legislatures, were the inevitable consequences of adetermination to persevere in the system ofgovemment I have described to tlie Committee, and which could scarcely have been avoided while that system remained uorefonaed and unimproved. V ; i, " -^ ' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ' '■■■ ■ ' I 65 Mar (is, 20 ® . die Maij, 1828. John Neilson, Esq. called iu ; and examined. Wliere do yoti iisually reside ? — My usual residence has been at Quebec ; I have re sitled for the last live or six years six miles from Quebec. Are vou a native of Quebec? — No, I am a native of Scotland. How" many years have you resided in Lower Canada? — Thirty seven years. Have you ever been, or are you at this time a member of the House of Assembly in Lower Canada?— I have been a member of the House of Assembly of Lower Canada for the county of Quebec for ten years. Are you now deputed by any portion of the inhabitants af Lower Canada to make any representations to His Majesty's Government in this country ? — I am deputed with Mr. Vifjer and Mr. (JuvilUer, of Montreal, on the part of the petitioners who subscribed the petition presented to the House of Commons lately. Will you state what the jfrievances are of which the inhabitants of Lower Canada com- ))lain, and what it is they seek a remedy for from the Government of this country and from Parliament ? — I shall take the liberty of stating the grievances as they are stated by t!ie petitioners themselves : they complain, in the first instance, that the state of the province has been growinjf worse for several years past in respect to trade and the value of landed property, and the prolits of industry. They complain that the expenses of (iovernmcut are hi<,^I'. Tliey complain that there has been a waste of the public revenue and resources ; that the public monies advanced or paid for public purposes are not suffi- cicmtly accounted for ; that larnre losses have consequently accrued ; that the laws that are conceived by the people to be necessary for the common welfare are rejected by one of t';e branches of t!ie Le<>islature, that braucli beinnf principally composed of persons who arc dependent upon tlie Executive Government of tlic province. The laws, of the rejection of which tley complain, are mentioned in the petition; tliey are various annual bills, frranting tlie supplies for the sunport of the Provincial Government; for affordinor logral recourse to t!ie subject havinnr claims ag^Jiinst the Provincial Government ; for regulatinjr certain fees and offices ; for enabling tlie inhabitants of the towns of Quebec and Montreal to manage tlieir local concerns ; for extending the facility of proceeding in courts of jus- lice more generally throughout the province than at present; for providing a new gaol for t' I' city of INIontrcal ; for qualifying justices of the peace; for continuing the militia laws ; for' increasing the representation in the House of Assembly ; for tlie security of the public monies in ti.e hands of t^e receiver-general of the province; for the indepen- dence of the judges; for appointing an agent to reside in England to attend to tho af- fairs of the province: tliese are all bills tl'at have passed the House of Assembly, most of tliem several times, I believe all several times, and have been rejected in tlie Legislative Council. Have they all been rejected by the Legislative Council, or have they been disallowed by the King ? — They have failed in the Leopslative Council ; there are none that I have mentioned that have been refused by the King. Are there any of those Avhich have been amended by tlie Legislative Council ? — Yes, there are. Can vou particularize which t!;ose are? — A supply bill has been sent down amended; t! e bill for regulating certain fees and oflices, I believe, was amended once ; the bills for facilitating the administration of justice have been amended; the bill for continuing tlic Acts regulating tlic militia of the province was sent down amended- I am ready to give in, if the Committee wish for it, copies of those bills as latterly sent up to the Council. V [The witness is requested to furnish the Committee with copies of the same.] I Are John Xri/so)t, Esquire. 20 31 ay, 1828. IL ^^-f « *l t 1 '' '1. .."113 1 11 1 1 ■ !( :| ii Ii ,1 ■ It || i ' ii 1 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SEtBCT COMMITTEE John Keilion, Are there no road bills or education bills that hare been sent np by t!ie Assembly ?_ Esquire. Yea, there are ; but tboy are not mentioned in the petition. Thev coni|)lain tliat the C" ^ * ~T * bills mentioned in the petition, and others, were rejected by the Lefrislative Council, May> 1828. ^^^^ ^jj^y aggfijjg tj,jjt rejection to the Executive Government of the province. Were they rejected with or without discussion ?-^Many of thera were rejected nitli. out discussion ; miCiiy ofthem were not proceeded upon on account of a rule that the Council imposed upon themselves in I82I or 1822, not to proceed upon bills of a certain description : for instance, not to proceed upon appropriation bills of a certain description, Where does that rule appear ? — It appears upon the rules of the Lefp'slative Council. Can you furnish the Committee with a copy of tlie Standing Orders of the House of As- Bcmbly ? — 1 think I can. The next grievances that the petitioners complain of are the applications of money le- vied in the province, witliout appropriations by the Legislature thereof; the next is ad- vances of money to persons who have not sufficiently accounted for the same, dissipation of public money, appointment of persons to be intrusted with public monies without full security given ; the diversion of the revenues of the estates of the late Order of Jesuits from the purposes of education of the youth of th6 province ; the non-execution of the conditions of the grants of the waste lands of the Crown ; and the last is attempts made in England to obtain changes of the established constitution in the province by the officcra of Government, during the existence of all these abuses. Hitherto I have confined niv- self to the complaints in the Quebec petition, and the county of Warwick petition ; but * there are complaints against the Governor-in-Chief in the Montreal petition which are not in the Quebec petition ; the Montreal petition was adopted subsequently, and it va< not approved of in the county of Warwick and some other parts. In addition to tli- complaints of the Quebec petition, the Montreal petition adds some which are direct c J against the Governor ; fii-st, with M-ithholding of despatches tliat oufjht to have been laid before the Legislature ; the dismission of Messrs. M'Cord and Mondelet, the stipentliarv chairman oftt^e quarter sessions for the district of Montreal ; the retaining of Mr. Cald- well as receiver^eneral after his default waf known by the Governor, and continuing Mr, Perceval as collector of the customs after he had taltcn illegal fees ; appointing Mr. Hale as receiver-general without security, and Mr. Young as slierifF without sufficient security, although both tlieir predecessors had been defaulters to a large amount ; continued ahiiv' of the representation of the country in the newspapers established by liis Excellemv;, threats of dismissions contained in those papers, dismissions of militia officers, and inter- , ference with the elective franchise, and with members of Assembly for the exercise oi their freedom of voting in the House ; answers to addresses, in which the Assembly is very harshly spoken oiF; misrepresentations of the Assembly in a speech delivered in )82'. These are all m the Montreal and Three Rivers petition, and are omitted in the Que- bec and Warwick petition. I am ready to enter into explanation of any one of tlio>e charges, and I am ready to produce proof by public documents of the whole of them, piu- ticularly of those in the Quebec and Warwick petition. There are two or three of those complaints in the Montreal petition, which are public complaints ; why are they omitted in the Quebec petition ? — Tne Quebec resolutions and the Montreal resolutions M'ere adopted almost simultaneously ; there M'as no concert be- tween the two places. Each one of course mentioned those articles that they conceived bore the hardest upon them. In Montreal they felt those articles as bearing hard upon them, and in Quebec they did not say a word about them. Seeing that so many bills have passed the House of Assembly which have been reject- ed by the Legislative Council, will you state to what circumstances you believe that to be owing ? — The petitions ascribe the rejection of those bills more to the composition of the Legislative Council, the dependent situation in which the members are placed relatire- ly to the Governor, than to any thing else. Will you describe the constitution of the Legislative Council ? — When I left the 'pro- vince there were resident in it 27 legislative counsellors ; Jonathan Sewell, Speaker, 900/. a year; President of the Executive Council and Court of Appeals, lOO/. ; Chief Justice of the province and the district of Quebec, salary 1,.500/. besides about 150/. for circuits, making altogether 2,650/. sterling. The Rev. C. J. Stewart, Lord Bishop of Quebec, •alarjr ON THE CIVIL GOVERNiMENT OF CANADA. 07 Hilary and allowances as bishop paid by Great Britain, about 3000/. ; Sir John Johnson, John Ntilson, Indian Department, paid by Great Britain, it is merely supposed 1000/. a year; I cannot *'*2'"'''' say wliether it is correct or not. » 'aolila* I'sas* Wbat is tlie Indian Department? — There is a department in Canada called the Indian ?" *" J Department ; it is a department that wj\s established durinj^ tlie Amerij-an war to have the direction of Indian anairs John Richardson, an executive counsellor, 100/. a >ear; (::i arlcs St, Ours, half-pay as captain, paid by Great Britain ; John Hale, ajjpowited by Lord Dalhousie to act as receiver general, 900/. a year 5 as executive couuiacllor, 100/, , raakin»- Principally those that are dependent upon the Executive Government. mv« M. %'. I fit i. : I': ■ I (I *. '\ Hi i .1 6t MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE I. John JVi'i/son, Have yoii any thing to add with respect to the constitution of tl»« Lpjrislativo Council ? — l!lic|uire. j |,ayg some facts to state ; I wisli to state that the Lord Bishop luw been bnt lately ap- ' m"^ "" ""* pointed, of ooursft he cannot have been an active member ; that seven of the members, of 20 JVJay, 1828r^y^g|, J |,jjyg gjygij j^ Ij^^^ j^ ^^j. attend at all, or vory seldom; Sir John Jotinson, Mr. De St. Ours, Mr. Louis De Salaberry and Mr. Burns, on ac<;ount of ill healtl) or beiiinr superannuated ; Mr. Cuthbert, Mr. Debartzcli and Mr. De Salaberry-, liavo discontinued th<;ir attendance. Wl(y have they discontinued? — I cannot tell ; they did not attend at the last session ; one o'l tliem I believe attended two or three sessions aco ; I heard Mr. Dcbartzch say that it injured him ; leavinjj 20 of those who are the most dependent, by their public situation, to transact the business of the Council. These facts I give as t!ie grounds upon whicli t\\c people of the country generally, and I myself, believe that tliose gentlemen are influen- ced, independently of their consideration of what is fitting or unfitting. In the yojir 1825 there was a supj^Iy '»in passed by tlie Assembly, which passed tlie Council, only two dissentients. In tlie next year a bill, exactly similar, was rejected unanimously by those that were present. In the first instance the Governor approved of the bill, in the second the Governor disapproved of the bill. Was he a different Governor ?— He was. Under these circumstances the people of the country have got an opinion that the jjentlemen who usually attend there are influ- enced by the will of the (ioveroor, and it is my opinion^ Is it not considered by the Assembly, that the Assembly lias t!ie right to appropriate the revenue mised under the British Act which is known bv the name of the 14 th of tlio late King? — The Assembly has frequently declared upon its journals tliat it understood that it had the right to appropriate all the monies that were levied within the province. Are you not aware tiiat the 18th of Geo. 3, which is known by t'e name of tlie Decla- ratory Act, and which Act had reference to such duties as were to be subsequently impo- Red by the motlier country for the regulation of trade, enacted that those duties, tl'.ough imposed by the mother country, should be appropriated by the local Legislature ? — I con- ceive that in 1778 the mother country declared that monies levied by tlie Parliament of Great Britain in the colonies, should be a})propriatcd by the legislatures of tlie colonies ; it declared that as a principle for the future government of those colonies. , Are you not aware that there was a distinct reservation in the statute of such monies as were levied by British Acts prior to the 18t:i ? — I am not aware t at tliere was sucli a distinct reservation; I know that it lias been interpreted as being such; but the general understanding has been this, that the legislatures of the colonies have a right to appro- / priate all monies levied by the Imperial Legislature ; and that they consider the only safeguard t'ley have against taxation by the legislature of this country, in which they arc not represented. Are you not aware that in the Act of 31 Geo. 3, commonly called the Quebec Act, there is a distinct reservation of the duties levied prior to the 18t!i of the late King?— Not according to our understanding of it, and my own uuderstanding of it. Is it not the fact that the point which has always been contended by tiie English Gov- ernment is simply this, that all duties levied since the 18th of (ico. 3, ai*e to..be appro- priated in whatever manner the legislature of the colonies think proper, but that ail du- ties that were levied under the British Acts prior to the 18th of Geo. 3, were to, be ap- propriated as before by t!ie autliority of the Crown ? — I believe thete was a despatch of Lord Bathurst's whicli mentioned something of the kind, referring to an opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General. I never saw t!ie ojiinion, but I recollect seeing a des- patch which stated something as being t!ie opiniou of the Attorney and Solicitor General to that efFeot. It is not the fact that all the bills sent up bv t'le Home of Assembly to t'le LegislatiAfi Council were framed upon the assumption by the Assembly, t'iat all duties imposed by t'e British Acts prior to the 18th of Geo. 3, were legall} under the control of the local Legis- lature, and not under the control of the British Government ?— Previous to the year 1822 there was never a question uj)on those Acts; it was always understood, both by the Executive (irovernmentandby the Assembly, that the whole of the monies were to be appropriated • by the Provincial Assembly. In 1822 the distinction began, and since thtit there has been a quarrel about it ; the Executive Goverumeut say, that they are not to apply the money .. — .» ^ ■ ' ^ ' ■ . ■ ;, ■ ; - . ■ to // ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OI- ( ANADA. u» to ftiiy otiier purposes exceptinjj the expenses of civil govornmont ; but tlio Asseniltly , say, that it is not to be applied by the Executive in sucha way that they ai-u to have no c icck over it. ^ Are you not aware that whenever there was no (lifferenoe of opinion as to the appropria- 20 tioii, in point of fa»;t, the right of the Britisli Crown was not brought into qucsfion, and that under those circumstances the appropriation took place generally ; but altliough it did take place, the rights of the Crown were not «aivcd by such circumstance ? — The ditFe^ rciice of opinion was tii-st as to the annual appropriations. Will the Committee allow me, in answer to this question, to state m^ view of the difFerences between the (iovernment and the Assembly, referring to the different bills. My opinion npon the subject is this, tliat the money arising from the Hth of the King was to be applied exclusively to the sup- port of the Civil (lioverntifient ; but that sum being insufficient for the support of the Civil (lovcrument, iind the Executive Government coming to t! e Le;;iMlature for an addition, then the Assembly had the right of control over all the expenditure, to see tliat every item of that expenditure was such as would authorize it to make additions to it. Then as long as the proceeds of the 14th of the King were sutncient for the maintenance of the Civil Government, yon admit that the right w{is in the Crown, and that the appro- priation would legally proceed from the Crown ;but wf-eii those proceeds are not sufficient, you think that the right of the Crov»n lapses, and that the Assembly, in toiisoquence of adding to that sum, becomes possessed of a control over the whole revenue? — -So far; but that is not the true state of the case. I understand, as an individual, that the Assenildy of the province has a right to appropriate and control the v hole of the money thp.l is levied iu the province. Notwithstanding the provision of the Act of 1778? — I understand that the' Act of 1778 established this principle, that in the colonies whenever taxation was resorted to by the I'hi-- liameut of the mother country, then the Legislature of the colonies had a light to apply the proceeds for the uses of the province. What view do you entertain of the powers of the Act of 1774', as affecting the revenue of Lower Canada ? — I w ill state my view of the matter ; I differ in some respects from tiie members of tlie House generally ; but wo all agree in this, that we ought to have a control over the expenditure, although we differ as to the grounds upon which we ought to hav(j that control. The Revenue Act of 1774, was pa'sed by the Legislature, of t!iis country, at a time when there was no repres6ntatidn of Lower Canada; a representation had been promised them, but circumstances did not permit, in the opinion of the Govern- , mcnt of this country, that it should be established then ; and as a means of drawing some-; thing from the country for the support of its government, it passed the Act of 1774. It is very true that there were duties under the French Government, but those duties, I believe, by the judgment of a British court of justice, have been licld to bo illegal, and could not be recovered in tlie colonies. I believe, in Mie case pf Antigua, there was a deci- sion that all the French duties existing in the colonies were illegal from the moment thq King's proclamation issued, recognising the people as British subjects and giving them tlio rights and laws of Englishmen. Of course m Canada nothing was said on the sulyect, the people of Canada have always been the humblest and the mildest people you have ; it was accompanied by an Act giving them their laws arid otiier advantages. The matter how- ever of taxation gene;.illy at that time by the mother country was much discussed, and tlien came this Act of 1778. Are the Committee to infer from your answer, that the duties being illegal for which those were commuted, although they were enacted in that Act of 1774, they were illegally enacted on that account ?— No, certainly not; the Legislature of Great Britain had the; power of making laws for the colonies in which there was no Legislature, and I conceive they had even the right of taxing them, although it is going further for the colonics than you will go for yourselves, for you will not allow that people ought to be taxed here with- out representation ; but I admit that where there is no representation, there sliould be some supreme legislative power. Do you entertain any doubt that the duties were legally imposed by the Act of 1 774, and also legally appropriated ? — I believe that the Legislature had a right to make the law, and that they had a right to make the appropriation. Have you any doubt that that law is at this moment binding in Canada ? — Yes, I have strong doubts. What Ksqiiire. — — "^' ■-' " 1 ■ ^1 ^t yi ! :■ m I'Pn Yd ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ' I'ln i John Neitton, What do those doubts arise from ? — Thev arise from the circtinistances I « as goinj to Etquire. detail. While there was no leg;ishitive body in the colony, it was a power whjch seems to r——-^ -^ me to belongto that ofthe empire, of regulating the whole aO'airs of all the dependencies of 80 May, 1888. the empire ; but the moment t ere was constituted a representative body, tuen that body naturally took the whole control ofthe revenue of t' c country ; and tl.is declaratory Act of 1778 supported it in that, because it is said that all the duties that were to be levied thereafter by Great Britain were to be appropriated in the Colonial Legislature ; in fact, ive have held that tlie appropriation wa.s altered bv the Act of 1778 and the Act of 1791, and that the apurbpriation fell of course then to the Assembly, as the natural body that ought to bare tlie control over the expenditure of money raised on its constituents. We have not contended that the Legislature had not the poster of passing tlie Act at that time ; but we say that tie general principle is this, that all t' e taxes levied by the Legislature shall be applied by the Legislature of the colonies' ; and with respect to the Act of 1774, we say that there may be doubts upon tie subject,for when tlie Act of 1791 was passed, it was the jreneral opinion that it repealed the Act of 1774, so far as tl e appropriations were «oii- cerued. In consequence of that, the British Government sent a message through ti e Governor to tiie Legislature in 1794, saying that as t ere were difficulties on the subject, / tlie moment duties were raised similar to t.Qse provided by t' at Act they would apply to Parliament for the repeal of t'iat Act. The consequence was, that in the Colonial Logiii- lature tiiey did gi'ant duties in lieu of t'e duties utuler that Act, and a bill was sent home to Government liere, which was approved of by ti.e King in Council, enacting t'.ose duties. The Act came out, approved by the King in Council, and ougl.t to have been iq force ; however, it arrived too late. T'-e Governor lecoramended it afterwards to the Legislature, and they passed it ; so that in 1799 it was finally passed, and ajiproved of by the Governor, conformably to the approbation tliat had already been made by the King in Council. It however happened t' at there was never any recommendation by the Britisli Government to repeal the Act of 1774, and tlere it I'as remained, aud we are tl.e unfortunate victims pf the quarrel that has ensued in consequence of that. Are you aware that there is no instance of a Colonial Act repealing a British Act ?— We do not pretend any sucti t ing. The Act of tiiC Slst of the late King cpntainp the following Preamble : " Wlicreas an Act was passed in the 14th year of the reign of his pres^eut Majesty, intituled, * An Act for making more effectual provision for tliC Government of the Province of Quebec in Nortii America:' And whereas the said Act is in many resppcts inapplicable to te present con- dition and circumstances of the said province : And w.creas it is expedient and netes. sary that furtf'er pvovisionshould now be made for the good government and prosperity tliereof ; may it therefore please your most excellent Majesty, that it may be enacted ; and be it enacted by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in t is present Pai'liament assembled, and by tlie authority ofthe same, that no much of the said Act as in any manner relates to the appointment of 9. Council for t. e affairs ofthe said province of Quebec, or to the power given by the said Act to the said Council, or to fhe major part of t' em, to malte ordinan- ces for the peace, welfare, and good government of the siiid province, with the consent of His Majesty's Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, or Commander-in-Gf ief forthe time be- ing, shall be and the same is hereby repealed." Do you not therefore admit tliat in t e Quebec Act of 31 Geo. 3, part of the Act of the 14 Geo. 3, was distinctly repealed, and the remainder of it distinctly confirmed ? — That is not the Act referred to ; cliapter 88 is Ithe KeTenqQ.Act, but the Revenue Act was not mentioned in the Act of 1791. There was a new constitution given to the country, and i}ot a word said about the Act of 1774, and it raised a dispute so early .as 1794 ; and upon tliat dispute the Government at homo, by means of their Governor, told the Legislature tliat they would repeal the Act if tiiey would grant similar duties to the same amount ; they did so, but the Government mivcr recommended to Parliament to repeal the Act ; in fact, somebody or other in the colony advised against it at that time. Does not the repeal of a portion of the Act of 17 Geo. 3, c. 83, without the repeal of any part ofthe 14 Geo. 3, c. 88, a contemporaneous Act which imposed duties, show that th« British House of Commons in 1791, h ben the Quebec Act was passed, did not inten4 ... to ON THE CTV'IL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, 71 ronccdft to the Lc? islaturo of Lowor Canada a control over the revenue levied bv tU Aot •'^*i!."^'j|f*"'' o( 1 4' (i*'0. 3, c. 88, hut on tho routrart intended to preserve a» law and unrcpealod part of •e Act of 1 774. Then, at this moment, would the repeal by the British Parliament of the Act of 1774, ipsojhctf), call into operation tl at Act of the colonial Legislature of the year 1799 ? — Yes ; and it would give the Government the full appropriation of 1 1,000/. a year, without limit by the LegislatuTe of the colony. The contest is now whether there be appropriations which never have obtained tlic consent of the Lejjislature of the colony : w hen ouce the appropria' tion has obtained tlie consent of the Legislature of the colony we have tied up our own hands ; but wiien it has not obtained the consent of the Legislature of the colony we stand upon the broad principle that the people of the colony have a right to make an appropria- tion of the monies that they pay. Do >ou mean to state, therefore, that by. the repeal of the Act of 1774, the Croear 1794 of 5, after the Governor had told the Legislature that the Crown gave up its territorial revenue to tho province. Does the House of Assembly contend that 5,000/. a year is to be appropriated by the House of Assembly ? — They would say that if the Crown were not to come forward and ask for more money, it is gone ; but if the Government comes forward and asks for more money, tliey may say that money is misapplied, and it ought to be applied in such a way. Will you state the progress of the disputes when those principles came practically into effect upon Sir John Sherbrooke, in 1818, calling upon the Legislature to provide for the civil establishment? — I have gotalready to the year 1799,|«hen this bill was passed, giving a sum in Ueu of the Act of 1774. Things went on tolerably well till the year 1809, the expenses were increasing very much, and the Assembly got alarmed, iid they had a quarrel with the Governor. It was then said that Great Britain had been paying a great part of the money during all this time : w henever they applied to control the expenditure, they were told Great Britain pays this, what business have you to interfere ? they said, well then we would rather take the whole of the expenses upon ourselves, so as to control the whole, for by-and-by it will be saddled upon us. Then they made the famous offer to pay the civil hst, and they heard no more about it. The war began in 1812, and they gave all that they had, and more than they had, for the war ; they authorized the issuing of paper money in the coun- try, and there was no quarrel about the civil list, or. any thing else ; but after the war, Sir Jobn ^1 1 ,1 lu'i;' tff MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ;'!i ^m '■'k i; . :|i li B Ksquiro. * Johii Sherbrooko camo out ; ho found every tliinjf in kucIi a state of disorder that he reprp. r- -* ^sentod it at lioine, niul the (tovcrnment here told liini to^yet tiie acfoiintH Kt^ttled every year sjfJ Mrfy, 1828. inthe Ilouseof AssemMy. Then came the acceptauoeof tlieoH'er of 1810 to pay all tlic expenses of tlio Oovi'rmnpiit ; they said, we will take all the expenses from you ; tlie ex. pennes in the mean time had aujjmcnted from about 4(),()0()/. to about (iO.OOO/. The As- sembly tlien said, we will pay the whole of the expenses; they then njjreed to pive the sum the (fovenior asked, wliich Wiis in addition to the revenue tliat he asssiimod t > be appru> )ropriated, and they reserved to themselves the ri^htofcxuniiuin<; into all the expenditure ,ho next year. Was there any bill passed that year, or was a resolution passed by tlie House of Assem- bly promising to indemnify the (lovernor ? — Precisely so, an address for money. Tlie next year the Duke of lliclimond a.Kedfor an addition of 16,000/. ; tliat alarraed'the As- sembly; they had already accepted of an addition of one half from the time t'ley offered to take up the expenses ; but when the Duke of Richmond came and asked for 10,000/. more ; they bcjifan to jfet alarmed ; they appointed committees to examine into the expenditure, and to check it, and they did examine and clieck every item of it, and t'ley Ijej^janto vote it i)y items, and they left out all the increased expenses, but offered to pay the expenses as tlioy stood in 1817, and passed a bill and sent it up to the Legislative Council, alloH'iii;r all t|iose exj[)ense8. Tlio Legiskitivo Council threw out tliat bill, upon tlie ground thjit it was not sate to take an annual bill. Did not the Legislative Council also object on llio ground of the vote being made by items ? — No ; because it was an annual bill. At the same time the Assembly made good its vote of tlie pi-eceding year, because they conceived themselves bound in honour not to have any quarrel about what had been advancgnlnrity in the Assembly, and tliere was no estimate, and no vote laid before the Assembly. Sir i'eregrino Maitland convened the Assembly before the returns were all made, and the Assembly objected that the Governor ought not to convene the Assembly till the House was completi'i because they said, if he might convene it before the time fixed for the returns, he might convene it before half of tliem were returned. Things remained in tliat state till news came of the death of the King, and then there was a dissolution. At the close of 1 S20, Lord Dalhousie came ; and he asked, that whatever they bad to give should be given per- manently : they told him at once that thoy would not ^Tfive any thing in addition to what they had already given permanently. Of coiu'se, notning wjis done ; they passed liowever a bill in some shape or other, which it was said would be less objectionable ; it went up to the Legislative Council, and it was refused. It was refused by the Legislative Council upon its being detailed, and not being for the life of the King. The next year Lord Dalhousie asked for a bill for the life of the King; the Assembly sent home a very lon» address to this country, as reasons for not complying, and the Legislature finally broke H]) without an V bill being passed. Lord Dalhousie asked for a sum of money, which they said they could not grant till they had an answer from this country to tlioir representation. The session finished without any bill being passed, and then came tlie tamous , Uuioa roject. In the subsequent year there was a bill for a part of the money passed, in 18:^3. u 1821 the receiver-general failed, and the appropriations already made by the Legis- lature were not paid, the members got alarmed, and some of them, against which I pro- tested, voted a reduction of one-fourth of the expenditure to meet the empty state of the chest ; that of ooursie was not accepted, it was rejected in the Legislative Council. In 1824 Lord Dalhousie came home, and Sir Francis Burton took the Government. In 1825, a Bill was agreed to by all parties, to add an indefinite sum to the indefinite amount of the appropriations alrcidy made, to make up the total amount of the whole expenditure ; for the Assembly had forgotten tlie alarm in 182-4 about the empty chest, and they M'ere willing to continue the expenses at the same rate. That was accepted by the Legislative Council, with two dissentients, and it was accepted by the Lieutenaut- Goveruor, and the whole country was in a state of joy at ♦ho enft of our difficulties. Had not the Assembly reduced the estimate ? — The Assembly has still persisted in refusing to recognize some new offices, absentees, and sinecures that were objected to in 1819; it objected to them, and it had finally decided that it would not pay them in 1819; f ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 181!); It still rcfiispd to ronojjiuzc them, and one or two w«re removed, or at least they j^^,, ^cilson, fti'ico'd to ffivft pensions in tlmir stoiul, but tlic^ still voted a Hiiin less tliuii was asked byfclio .Jisijiiuu, ' LitMitcnanMJovernor, I)y about ^3,000. At that time the whole country was at ncaoo,^ ^ ./v — — ^ tluTo \ .vlay, iHas. appiie,! by tlinimthorit. of the Oovornor and to Council alono, without any act of th» LetfiHlatun". Tlu' revonuc naturally dividoN itself into two partH ; t'at whicluve consider roadv approiiriatod h b-jritfutivi! enaitments for t o support of ti.e Civil ('ovoni. imd that whir iu not m» appro|niatod : wi> say t' at not .in|r Ih appropriatcdhui !! I'lll MfW to be air nicnt, an ... what I iw been approjtriatod liy the LfyfiKhiture of t e colony ; te Governor saMs, uiid ot (>rH 8ay, that the rcvi-nue of the Act of 177+ of t'o Kiujf is appropriate! ; the w nle of t e money lasbctMi mixed up toi,'ether in fe l.and« of tie receiyer-jrcneral, that >«liin IH anpropriated and t at v. I ich is not apjtropriated. There is part of it avo >ed by bot'i parties not to be ap|>ropriated, and t e exixnises of the (ioverinnent liave been paid by the (fovernor himself, \\\V\ the couM-nt of to Executive Council, out of tie chest iw it btands, wit <»ut any ajtpropriation; ko t at now of t|io money t^at t'e Governor hai applied t'lere is about .tno.OOt) that is paid wit oiit any anpropriatiim at all even allejfcd I b. the (lovernor. It is iu*tiHed on tJie part of t o Colonial ({overnment an a cascoj | uotieHHitv, but neceissitv will always furnis i a law and pretence for every thin;,'. Do t injjH remain in t at state n<»w?— T eyaro worse now, the Leg;i! duties are collected ? — No; if t'ley l;nd been, it would I have been a dirt'ereiit story ; but t ey are Acts of public utility; Acts re;rnlaflnn; tie inspection of as es and beef, or some things of t at kind, llnless it is pretended tiial t e mere nieetiuff of the Lpjjrislature is a callinfj tojjethcr of the Le^islaturn forte > despatc*) of business, and that you mu. ^et the Legislature to meet and not suffer it to proceed to business for W years to come; ti'o Act of Parliament is actually suspended ut the present moment, and t::o money is apj>licd as the Governor and Council I please. iSiuce t ere has been no vote of the LojSjislature for t'e payment of tlie expenses, from I Dv! at resources have t -e (Jovernraent drawn for tlieir expenses? — ' rom tlie receivt-r- general's c icst; the whole of the money raised by the Acts of this L' ,'islature and of the Colonial Leiyislature have been deposited in the hands of a receiver-mbl^ V— Yo.<(, John ^VW/mn* for all that thoy had voted; tliet never indviniilKod I'urwhiit tlio> hud not vot«'d. liMjuifc. Do tliosw porniiuioat rorouu« Ai'ft* nuH«> NiiHiriiint for th(» miiintonnnrfl of thfl Civil' ',J^*~ (ii)Vfriiiiii!ut y — Yen, more tliiiti Hiil1i(>i«>iit ; but'lhe expriwen of the Civil (Toveriinieiit'*® tntj, huve ulwayj* jfrowii with tin* aiiioiiiit of tlii,> roveime, horaiMtt the^ Imve ncvui been cou- troiled by tlie repreHJMitutivi's of the poople in tbe colonieN. Are there many Niiiociin's in Lo>vei'-(!iinudiiy — No; I believe thut seven or ei^jht, that were objeeted to from the nnnnieiicenient, ure tlie uhobf ; tliere were Nevernl otbe^, but tiiey were Ghan<(e(l into pensions, hnt it was insisted tlvit thime ahtmld be maintained AN ollit-ers; now the oHicers ure not reaidcnt in tho colonies, and hare uo duties attached to their otnces. You stated that tho Assembly objected to the items included in th<) .€3.0()0 becaiiM they were afraid they should p«>rpetuate tliem after the deatli of the partieri lioldin|jf them ; arc the Conuuittee to understand, that, as fur as your opinion ffoes, \ou see no obieotiou tu pav those items, provided it was understood that they were to be discontinued after tho death of the parties? — As a member of the LeJ^^«lature, I cannot say what I woubl do', BH a private individual, I woubl h.ive no objection to allow th«>8c peopb^ that buve« tlirou;{b our ne;r|i^cncu, ji^ot allowances made to them, to have them continued to them during; their life. Has not tho Assembly of Lower-Canada invariably objected to superannuations of all dorfjj!' — Since they claimed n control over the expenditure ; but the) have never exer- cised any control over the expenditure, it lias been resisted. \Vi at proportion of the rreneral expenditure of Lower-Canada did tho Crown revenue bear to that v»hic'i was raised by local Acts in the province? — There is a ffrtnit deal of confusion with respect to tlie words " (^rown revenue;" what is commonly called Crown revenue consists of those Acts anterior to 1774, Charles tho 2d, and (ieorjje the 1st, and so on ; wo have not rejf ular ac<;ounts of their proceeds ; the other Crown revenue is tlic 14th of the Kin;r, which is called the Crown revenue and the territorial revenue; all tliose revenues to;;ether mi;jht amount to between £3{),W)0 and £40,000. Sujtposiiijj thcni to amount to tl'at sura; m hat is the averiijye amount of the revenue raised by loivil statutes for tho purposes of the Oovernment ? — The total net reveiuio of Lower-Canada latterly lias been about .£90,000 ; it has amounted in {rross to about £150,000 a year, a larjfc prdportion of which p ^ to the expenses of collection, 12 or Li per cent perhaps, whic i wo consider is cno...i»u.'< ; then one fourth of the net revenue pops to Upper-Canada, exclusive of t!ie territorial ; thentiie rest remains the net revenue for Lower-Canada, of £90,000 ; of this, I believe, the executive Oovernment claims to appropriate between £30,000 and £40,000, so tliat there would remain about £jO,(;00 to be appropriated by the Leirislaturo according to the pretensions of the executive Government of the province ; that is to cover the whole of the expenses for local improvements, and the annual charitable appropriations, which last amount to about £15,000. You stated that the Letfislature of Lower-Canada havinw no control over the salaries of the olBcors of t'-o civil poverment, their salaries were excessive; will you point out what salaries of officers appointed by the Crown you consider as excessive ? — I consider a {Treat many of them as excessive ; I should say for instance, that all salaries which are accumulated, tive or six upon one person are excessive ; with respect to tho petitiouers I would say, that tho pfcneral feeling of the country is, that the »al2»-ie8 are too high, relatively to the means of living in the country. Are the petitions for which you are an agent here, signed exclusively by the French population of Lower-Canada? — No, they are signed generally by the ptpuhitisn of Lower Canada, excepting in the townships, the district of St. Francis, and in the district of Gaspe, for which no petitions were sent. Have you any idea of the number of English signatures upon these petitions?— Yes, in consequence of some things that had been said, we took tlie trouble to count ; the whole number as stated to me by tiie secretary of the Montreal committee, is above 87,000, and two gentlemen who live in Montreal counted the Montreal petition, at least that part of tho petition that contains 40,000 signatures, and they found that there were 2,676 EngUh nainea in the 40,000, about one sixteenth of the whole. v , > ' 18«A. l\ '4 % MIXTTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jo'm Ncihon ^^^ i'noso chiefly Catholics? — Thoy are both Catliolics and Protestfints. I do not Kiquire. ' know tlie proportion of tliem ; I counted the Quebec petition just iu the manner in which r- ^ , it unrolls, 1,171 narae^. In that petition thev took care to state those that were proprjo. 20 May, 1828. tors, and those that were not proprietors ; they generally are stated to be proprietors- and the fart of the petition being known and approved of by the parties, is certified by two witnesses who 'vere present at the time, because many of them unfortunately cannot wi ite their names. Of the 1,171 names that I counted, I began first with 200 in the town of Quebec and the adjacent country, there were of those actual signatures 48, the total of English names 19 out of the 200; of the English names with crosses there were fonr: 64 of St. Nicliolas on the south shore, five signatures ; no English names at all. 200 of St. Henry below Quebec, IC signatures; no En";lish nam^s. 200 of ditto, 13 sin'na. tures; live English names, four crosses. 187 ot Cape Saint Ignace, 4!> miles below Quebec, 10 signatures; no English names. 200 of Riviere Ouelle, 60 miles below Quebec, 35 signatures ; three IZnglish names. 120 at Quebec, 81 signatures; 34 English names, and six with crosses. So that that makes of the 1,171, 200 signatures, 61 of tlicm English names, and 14 Englisli names with crosses, which makes one-fifth of the whole actual signatures, one-nineteenth of the ■whole English names. Waa the petition sent at all into the townships ? — Not at all ; because there was not sufficient time ; there was no idea of sending any person to England till after the pro- rogation of the House, and it was desired that somebody should come home before the meeting of Parliament. Do > on believe that those petitions would have obtained many signatures in the town. ships if they had been sent there ? — I should conceive that they would obtain sigua- tures in the townships. A:n */- '- 3*1 ... ■■. t ':> ♦ V ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 77 n Sabbati, 2-i ® . die MaiJ. 1828. 7 JbAn Neilson, Esquire, again called in j and examined. hn XiiUcn, Esqiiiic. Have you brought with you any of the papers referred to in your former eridence ? — I _ I h.ave' broiifjht copies of the bills that were referred to. — [ The witness delivered in the sniiir.] " I (icneralTy, are those bills which passed the House of Assembly, and were rejected in^_ Itlif Lenislative Council? — They are. I stated thsit some of the bills hud been sent back.o^ ^i^y^ i82« Iwliich was not perfectly correct. I consulted the journals of the Lejrislative Council, and Ifrom those journals I took a meniorandura of the fate of the different bills, wliich I have jhero.— [^'Ae witness delivered in the same] I You stated in your former examination that the tM'o lejjislative bodies had ea(^h of Ithem enacted certain standing orders, by which it was detennined that they should not Ipass certain bills that came from the one body to tlie otiier ; have you got those standiug lorders ? I have. — [The tcitness delivered in the same,] I Have the Assembly hitherto rejected every proposal Avliitit has been made for the Ipurnose of arranging a civil list, or a settled system of payment for any number of orti- loers connected M-ith the Government, and the executive 'i — There never has been any I such proposal made for any certain number of officers belonging to the executive. I What proposals have been made ? — The first proposal was, that all money that tlie Asr Isembly should vote should be voted permanentljr for the support of the Govcrumout. I The next was, that it should be dining the life ol the King ; and latterly it has been pre- Itcndcd, on the part of the executive, that certain officers of the Civil government were Iprovided for already out of the monies that are appro|)riated generally for the support lof the Civil Government, and the administration of justice ; so that there has be( included in that, and out of wh.it fund they were stated to be provided IforV — There has been some variation in the lists hiid befoie the House, of the officers alleged to be provided for out of the monies of the l-tth of the late King, and the appro- nriaUon of the 33th of the late King by he Provincial Legislature ; however, tl ey will be found by reference to the lists laid t'etbio the Assembly, and in their journals. C!an you enumerate them ? — I car'.not -crtainly, but I can give a gcncial idea of them. ! Can yon state the annual amo . «t f the revenues arising under what you tall the A(;t ! of 1774, wliich were commuted for ihe original monies due to the French Crown ; does it exceed 5,000/. a year? — The annual monies under the i4th of the Lite King have vari- I ed very much, from 3,000/, to 20,000/. ; they were about 10,000/, when a late Act of Par- I liament was passed, which repealed tlie Act allowing certain drawbacks upon exportations [from Canada to the West Lidies; since that time the proceeds from t\w 14th of tlie lato King have nearly doubled ; they have amounted to 19,000/. or 20,t)00/, ; I mention the gross, without deducting the expenses of collection Will you describe what t.ie other portion of appropriated revenue is, to w I of the late King ?— 5,000/. voted by thf hich T oil have alluded, arising under the 35th of the late King ? — 5,000/. voted by the LegiwUi- ture as an aid for the support of the Civil Government and the administration of justice. Is that voted permanently ? — It is. In what way is that appropriated in detail ? — There is no detail of it in the Act ; it is a (feneral appropriation in aid for the support of the Civil Government and the adminirstrjir Uou of justice. Ilav«> % in. \V I m ■1 19 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE John ^'rilson Havo tlie Ooveriinient proposed to make any fixed particular appropriation of that?-. Ksqii'ii e! * No, tho claim 1ms hoon, that they could dispose of it as they thoua;ht proper. ,, " ( Does t!'e Leifislativo Assemhlv deny that claim ? — They deny that claim, in so far m 84 May, I8ii8. Government asks for other monies from the Assembly, they say then we must take cart" that the w'lole is proper!* ap])lied, because you may turn this to any use t'at you think proper, that is not even for t'le support of the Civil (government and the admiuistratiou of justice, and still come upon us for tlic remainder. Has it ever occurred to your own mind that the mode could be chalked out in which the money mij^fht be appropriated to the maintenance oi the different officers connected with the Government, so as not to let them depoud actually upon an anntial vote, but to make Bome arranfjement similar in principle to a civil list ? — I am very willing' to answer that, oxceptinf>' of course that I cannot euoiige mj self as a member of the Assembly; I will state what tlie Assembly has done, and you may judjfc from that what it would be wil. lin;'' to do. The Assemldy has already s 'islature, so that not only the appropriation of . t' e money, but the very collectinj>; of the money is dependent upon an annual vote of the Lejfislature ; there the Government and the Assembly fj^o on very well in concert ; in the old colonies they kept the whole of the revenues suliject to their vote annually; it may appear extraordinary, but considerinfj the circumstances of the colonies, it is not so very extraordinary. The jfovernors sent out from this coiuitry are far away from home; t'ey have ;rroiit powers, miicli f^reater than the executive has here ; they have the whole military powor at their disposal ; they have the nomination of every body, almost down to the pa- rish offi<;ers, diirincf pleasure ; and if any thin<>is wron"-, there is no remedy to be expchil in the colony, except from the power of the Assembly havinjj a check upon the Govennr, or by c- tration of the government, they expect that it will be as well administi^-ed, and as cheapK administered, as in the adjoining countri«'s. In the State of New York, tor instance, they I have three times our population, and four or five times owr resoun-es, and thev pay not more than ho do for the support of the Civil Govcrnmei*. lu ly^wer Canada ]»•'«• pie I ^'M of that?- a so far as t take carfl ; you think iiuistratiou [1 which tlic iiectetl with tut to make nswer that, jly; I will >uld he wil- overnor ilu. lurinfj s. People i Iher ])arts of Irnments aie | tlie adiuiiiis- «s cheaplv Istancc. thi'v Id they p:iy X'^nada j't'o- ON THE CIVIL GOVEBNMEM OF CANADA. John Xeihi.. plc shut their eves to all tb«e thin are becoming, in fact, by tlu»t means the lords of the country. The men tliat have the greatest incoiues will always be the lords of a country, and they have greater incomes than the people who have landed property, or who are following the most profitable branches of business. What is the avenige income of the richest landed proprietors ? — I should suppose the richest lauded proprietor has not more than 1,500/. a year; and gentlemen at the head of their profession thiidv they are gaining very handsomely if they can get 1,300/. a vear, and that is a gain that will not last more perhaps than eight or ten years. Has it been proposed to include in the list of those to bo permanently provided for, anv individuals to whom objection has been taken ? — There are some new offices that have been constantly objected to by the House of Assembly ; there is one for the audit of public accounts t' at has been objected to, because the government would not consent to anv law for regulating that office. They wished the Assembly to give the expense of .about 1,800/. a > ear for an ofii<'e for auditing public accouuts, when there was no law I for regulating suth an olfice ; in fact, the audit of public accounts is no audit at all, it is I only the audit of the persons that receive the mone\ . Can you mention anv otlier oHice to which objection was taken ? — Generally they have objected to all now offices created without their consent since 1819. Have -ri'tv offices been created since IHIOV — There have been some that have had salario.' > !(i i to them that had no salaries before. Has )1 ■ < i "1 list increased in any great proportion since 1819 ? — No, it has been in- creased something; but it was proposed in 1819 to increase it at once 16,000/., audit was that whicli occasioned tlie alarm among the members of the Assembly. U|)»ni what sum was that increase proposed ? — It amounted to between 60,000/. and 70,000/. before. Do \ou think it a desirable arrangement that t'le salaries of t^ie jtidges should he voted I to them at pleasure ? — I do not think it is, they are voted annually in tlie United States ; but I think it is unnecessary, because their constitution dechu'es that tlieir salaries sliall I neither be increased nor diminished diu-ing the time they hold their office. In the State j of New York they vote them every year, and the constitution does not declare that thev [sliall not be increased or diminished, for they actually have diminished them; but I think I they should be independent both of the Crown and of the People. Are the Committee to undcrstaud that you are of opinion that if the principle in dis- Ipiiti', witli respect to the appropriation of those revenues, were satisfactorily arranged, the Assembly M'ould he willing to vote the civil list upon the sort of terms you de- i pcribe ? — It is impossible for me to answer for the Assembly ; I have been ten years in the Iloitse of Assembly; I have almost as frequently been in the minority as in the majori- ty ; but I should conceive tiiat generally there would not be any very strong objection to 'something like an allowance during the (iovornor's residence for the salary of the (iov- eriior, and I am sure they would all agree in making t'le judges independent of the Crown and of tlie peoi>le. Would they, in your opinion, be willing to make such an arrangement with regard to I other officers besides the Governor and the judges? — I do not know what other offi- cer might be proposed, I am sure it would give rise to a great deal of discussion. W'AS there not a distinction taken lietween the different classes of officers in the pro- I vince ? — There was ; it was this, that one class were local, and another belonged to the Imperial Government ; it was a distinction to sr t the colony and the mother country at variance, and to set the officers that pretended to be couaected with the mother coua» try at variance with thone connected with the colony. I.I s i» il 1 rtii BO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE / Jo'in NeiUon, Was it a distinction attempted to be drawn by the Government between those tlut j Esqujie. were considered to be more iraraediately connected with the Civil Government and the ad. -^ ^____-^ ministration of justice, who were tliercby provided for, and those who not bein^ so pro. 21 AJny, i8ja vided for, remained to be provided for by the vote of the Assembly? — Yes, it was; but! there was a distinction that reelected all those that were said to be imperial or permanent from oth(!rs that were said to be provincial. \\ as not the origin of that distinction being drawn, the inadequacy of the funds to pro- vide for tlie wliole ? — Of course ; if they had had sufficient funds to meet the whole, I do | not think they would have troubled us at all with that distinction. Do not tlio inhabitants of Lower Canada, who are the descendants of the original settlors, very mncli prefer tlie tenure upon which the lands are held in the seigneuries, to that of ' free and common soccaj^e ? — 1 liere has been a ji^ivat deal of talk on that subject ; in triitli I they do not care nuicli about the tenure, one way or the other ; their great object is to jet laud clieap, and to get it easily, without much oxpense, and you will find that they will ne- ver be mistaken in that head ; whatever is the cl eapest and easiest will be that whid | tliey like the best. ifave thoy no cboice between the two tenures ?•— I speak of the pea-santry that settle un. i on the lands, and do the work and make tlie country valuable. A great noise about the toniires has arisen from an attempt to change the laws of the country, at the same time that there was an attempt to change the tenures. Now the laws which regulate a man'! ! property, Avliich reguhites the inheritance of his cldldren and all that, are always dear to) every people ; thev must be very bad laws indeed if people do not get at jhed to thoe laws under which they have lived for a great length of time, and under which they liavi"! enjoyed the secui'it of tlieir property. The moment there was a talk about cliaugiiisf tli? laws, that moment there was an alarm excited throughout the countiy : it would lio tie) same thing if you talked of changing tlic laMs that regulate property in England w f l^cotlaiKi. Do you allude to the Act called the Canada Tenures Act? — Yes. Has that created any ahu-iu ? — It created alarm in so far as it was conceived to he tW | commencen^eiit of a system to change the laws that regulate property, and which have regulated property since tlie first establishment of the colony. Was it not known that it was only an Act leaving it optional with persons eitlier to j take advantage of its power, or not, as they pleased ? — Yes j but in the first place it suIj- jected all tiie laud in free and common soccage to the laws of England, which ncA'cr liml been considered to be the case, because the courts of justice had uniformly acted upon the i)iim;iple that the laws of Canada extended throughout the whole surface of Canada, and that those lands were under the laws of Canada. Did not the Act that restored the civil law of France limit it to the seigneuries, and ox- pn^ssly prevent its power from extendingover lands granted in free and common soccjiEcr There is a clause to that effect in the Act of ITTl, but that clause seemed very much to v.'ant explanation. In point of fact, it was understood that the laws of Canada exteiuleii over the surfac(> of Cimada ; and the courts acted nponthat understanding. What laws of Canada do j ou allude to ?--The laws of (.'anada that were restored bv tho i Act of 1774. Did any opinion e.\ist that the French civil was in operation in Canada during t'le years j that elapsed between the Conquest and 1774? — I do not know. From the time oil 714 down to the passing of the Act called the Canada Teunres Act, in the sixth of the Kiui/, ] it was understood tiiat ti-e laws of Canada extended to the whole country, and tliolai< «i!re executed upon that understanding, and the Avholo proceedings ivere had in tlie courts ol justice ; I cannot say positively, but other gentlemen Avill be able to suy m ilh greater tor- ta'uty, if there were decisions to thateffectiu the courts of Canada. Would not such a practice have been in defiance of, and "hoUv inconsistent witli, tiif I provisions of the Act of 1774 ? — I know there is a provision to t! at elfect, hut I cannot | say that the courts of Canada were acting in defiance of the Act of Parliament. Can you state, of \ourowu knowledge, that there ever was a decision of the courts *^'anada to that elfect in a disputed case ? — No, I cannot say tli.it, not being a lawyer; have Old i a geuiii al understanding of the thing as it exi.sts in tlw country ; and t!.e g:meral | muU'i'.^taading w;is, thut all those lands were rcyuhited by the laws of Canada. ON tHK CIVIL OOVERNMENT OF CANADA. It Enquire. May, 1028, DoM that and««rstandhi^ prevail now ? — There is no understxiidin^ at all now, for no John Neitum, one knows what law rmrnlates tlioni, no one understands the mode of conveyancing accor- " dinff to the law of England, except one or two ; and when they, as hitherto, wish to pass a deed t'lat they nsed to pay Is. 6d. for, they are asked five guineas, and tliat may be more ^* than the lot of land IS worth. Does that apply to all tlie land that is held in free and common soccag'e ? — Yes; it is de- clared that from the year 1774 down to the present time the laws of Ennrluud rejfulate the whole propertv in those townships J now every man has divided that property according' to the laws of Canada. I myselt trusted persons upon the faith of theii- being possessors of land ill that country under the la" s of Canada ; but it appears now, that according to the English law it was t!ie eldest son that had it all, and they had notiiing, being younger sons, and I have no security for my money. Did von enter into that contract under the idea that the same laws that regulated the de- cisions with respect to land in the seigneuries, prevailed in tiio townships ? — It was gene- rallv 80 understood ; I had no doubt about it till lately. When did the doubt Si's! arise y — I have heard doubts expressed a great many years ago, hut it was considered as a f'ing upon which there was no longer any doubt from the proceedings of the courts, and consequently people set it down as a matter no longer in contest. Do you mean to say that in the courts to whicS you allude the decisions have always ru- led till lately, that the law of Canada prevailed in the distribution of laud within tlie town- ships ? — I have not said that there was a decision in tie case ; but the general understand- ing amongst the people in Quebec, where I have resided for the last 37 years, was, that those lands were governed by the law s of Canada. What is it that has occasioned any doubt as to the practice in that respect ? — The pas- sing of the Canada Tenures Act in this country, whicli declares that those lands have al- ways been regulated by the laws of England, and in fact that has a retro-active effect from tlie very commencement ; men that thought themselves the owners of land in that country are no longer the owners of it, and it would be difficult to tell who are tlie owners of it. By declaring it to be the law, docs it do more than repeat and re-enforce the provisions of the Act of 1774 ? — I understand that a declaratory law says what has been always the law, and certainly the clause in the Act of 1774 gives a colouring to this, being declared to be the law ; but it is in opposition to wnat M'as generally understood. Have you ever heai'd any other construction put upon the provision of that Act, than that the laws of England shonld be in force in lands granted in free and common soccage ? Taken with the clause of ihe Constitutional Act, which speaks of the grantingof land in Canada, (for it will be observed there were no grants of laud in free and coninion soccage made in Canada, till after the passing of the Constitutional Act,) that clause seems to im- ply that the lands in Lower Canada are to be continued to be granted in seigneury, and that the lands in Upper Canada are to be granted in free and common soccage. It however does say, t!:at if anv person requires it, land in Lower Canada may be granted in free and common soccage ; but the Act of 1791 seems to understand that the scigneurial tenure should prevail in Lower Canada, but that in L^j)per (Janada it should be tlie free and com- mon soccage tenure. What was the practice between 1774 and 1791 ?— Between 1774 and 1791 there were signeurisil grants ; in fact it appeared at the time that it was tlie intention of the British Government to reserve, in some measure, Lower Canada, for the Canadians, and Upper Canada for the British settlers. Will \ou read the clause in the Act of 1774 ? — " Provided alwa\s, That nothing in this Act contained shall extend or be construed to extend to any lands tl at have been granted by His Majesty, or shall hereafter be grarited h\ His Majesty, his heirs and successors, to be holden in free and common soccage." The Committee will recollect that this Act met with extreme opposition in tltis countrv, and the outcry was, tliat they were establishing French laws ; in fact this Act was made one of the articles of complaint in the declaration of independence in the United States of America, Those who were opposed to the Act at that time were vcrv violent indeed, and probably they got that clause introduced, which restricted tie operation of the A<'t to the old giants. It all depended, however, upon the •ctofthe Goverumeat whether there should be any tliin? of this kind ia Lower Canada ; L if * ■'.. m 1 t . ^l^J^ "W»r jjilH 82 MINUtES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECt COMMITl-Efi Ksquire. ifthe Government chose to ^ant land in that way, then this Act might apply, but if the /— — '■ ^Government did not choose to make such grants, it could not apply, because there Here .i* Ai ly, IS38. no lands granted in free and common soccage. Iliis tlie King ever granted any iand in seigneurv ? — He has. • Upon that land is theie any doubt t at the French law prevails ?'^No doubt ; there U Mount Murray Seigneurv, below Quebec, which has been granted by the King. At what date was that granted ?— I do not know whether it was subsequent to that Act, I believe that St. Armand was granted subsequent to this Act, but I know there were no grants in free and common soccage of waste lands till alter t'.e passing of this Act; tliit was in 1791, and the first grants were in 1796. Will \ou read the clause in the Act of 1791 ? — This is the 43d clause of the Act ; — " And bo it fiirtlior Enacted, h\ the authoritv aforesiiid. That all lands which shall be hereafter granted within the said Province of Upper Canada shall be granted in free and common soccage in like manner as lands are now holden in free and common soccage in that part of Ctreat Britain called Engaud;" (^ ere is a positive enactment, t' at all lands granted iii ' tiiat province s all be granted in free and common soccage,)—" and that in every case wlicre lands s'lall be l-ereafter granted within the said Province of Lower Canada, and where t' e grantee thereof s all desire the same to be granted in free and common soccajfe, t!u> sanies all be so granted," (that is only where the persons desire it,) " but subject ne^ vert'ieless to such altemt'.ons witli respect to the natiu-e and consequences of such tenure of free and common soccage as ma)' be established bt an- law or laws, which ma', be made by His Majest' , his heirs or successors, by and with the advice and consent of the Legisla- tive Council and Assembly of the Province." It seems to me, that by that clause, and in fact by the declarations of ministers tliemselves, it was intended to reserve the lauds in Lower C!anada for the increase of the populatioti of Lower Canada, while^the Upper Pro- vince was destined for tl;e loyalists from t.ie United States and emigrants from this coun- try. Do von found that opinion upon the clause vou have just read ? — Yes. Will you |)oint out what part of tliat clause leads you to that conclusion ?— 'Because it positivel V enjoins that all grants shall be in free and common soccage in Upper Canada, and it says that lands may be granted infree and common 80(;ciige in Lower (]anada,if the par- ties ask for it ; thatis leaving it to be understood that t'e old tenure is to be continued iu Lower Canada. The questiou is not whether it was f^o intention of the Legislature to permit the grant- ing of land in Lower Canada upon the tenure of seigneur » , but whether it was the intentioa of t e Leffislatifre that the French la« should extend to tne lands jfranted in free and com- mon soccage What is there in t e clause ol the Act 1791 that would lead you to construe the clause in the Act of 1774, otherwise than that the English la » was to prevail in lands granted in free and common soccage ? — It seems to me, t 'at wiiere lands were granted iu free and common soccage, under the Act of 1774 the English laws v^ere to extend to them; but it seems to me, by tiie Act-of 1791, that the old tenure was to be preserved in Lower Canafla. In tact it ! as been understood that the la^^s of Canada prevailed tdl over t.e surface of the countr. . The Act of 1791 p "rmits t'lat land s' ould be granted in t e province of Lower Canada upon free and common soccage to those who desire that it should be so granted. Wliat in t oreintliat Act vvliic'i woubl lead you to suppose tiiat lands granted under that permis'iioR, in free and common soccage, are not subject to the operation of the Act of 177+ r— It s.'cnis to me that tlioy would come under the operation oft Act of 1 774, but the ditfi- ciilty seems to arise trom no grants having been made till after t-e Act of 179 I, whiCii seemed to imply t at t e old tenure was to continue in Low«^ Canada. Pnutioally in t e towns ips have persons inherited property accor»ling to t' e Englisl: law, or according to the French la^v y — They have inherited pro|>«rt\, I suspect, acconiin. | to the laws of the United Stiites. Ther» ia« been little la* or yovernment there. T-h>w settlemrnts were made less as part of Canada, than as part ofdie Un»t«l States. Do you mean to apply that to t e township nt f»»dmanciie»ter ? — Those jjrants wen made since that time, but I speak of the great noaia nC t.e pA^uiation of thcHe couutriit V hie'' are near Lake Meraphrnmagog. Practically, in the t<>wns ijts nesu" the St. Lawrence, ^ave persons inherited according t» ti.t- Eiiglibh law or according to the C ^Modiaa law ?->! uiuiuot say. Bo* ON THE CIVIL' GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 83 I coiumou But in t'lose parts which havo been settUd npon the American frontier, tliey liave in- j^imX,, hflrited according to the American law ? — I suspect so, t^atisto sav, they have divided Lsqui amonj^t themselves, according to the American law. People in spite of all laws will fol- low their old customs and usa^^es ; it requires ajjes for people to alter their customs ; those 24 May i82a. people coming in from the United States, will dispose of their pVopert> as the* did in the United States : now the United States have done away witii that part of the laws of En- gland which gives the real property to the eldest son, and they make an equal division araoiiflfst the children. Is not an individual in the United States at liberty to leave his property by will to whom he pleases ? — Yes, and so it is in Canada ; and in making marriages we make such .irrangements as we please ; but if we make no arrangement or no wiU, then the law of t e country prevails. In Upper Canada ti.ey have passed a bill to introduce a law thei e si- > milar to what we have in Lower Canada. Can hind held in seigneury be disposed of by will ? — Certainly ; there is an Act of the Lerislature for that purpose. Wiiat is the practice that prevails in the sei^euries in that respect ; do persons divide their lands generally by will ? — It is generally done by a donation ; the great bod v of the population in Lower Canada are agriculturists ; the wav that they nuuiage it is t is ; they take one of the bo>8, mostly the >oungest one, and he remains wit;k the father, and does the work upon the land, while theot<.ers go out and take up new land ; before he dies, he makes wnat they call a donation or gift of all liis laud to his son wl)o lives with him, and does the work of t'le land when he is no longer able to do it himself; that one becomes the proprietor oft'e father's land, all the others have spread themselves and taken up revr lands, and he gets that ^ift under an obligation to pay certain sums to his brotliers and sisters ; the brot'.ers with tHat money improve their new lands ; the sisters take hus- bands ; in fact it is their marriage portion. You have said that the English mode of conveyancing, wlich has been adopted in t''e townships, is verv expensive ; are you acquainted with the mode of conveying land which is resorted to in the United Stotes ?-^! believe, botli in tlie United States and in Canada it is done very cheaply. V I- [A Deed was shown to the Witness.] Have you ever before seen a document similar to that which you hold in your hand ? — Never ; I never had auy propert> in that country. Describe wliat it purports to be ? — It is a grant of land by the State of New York to an individual. The grants by our Government to individuals are not much more complica- ted than this. This is very rauci) like one of our grants, except that our law officers choose to put in a great many more words. Have the goodness to look at that ducument (another deed bting shown to the witness), what does that purport to be ? — It appears to be a convey ance of laud from one individual to another in the State of New York. What do you believe the expense of such a convex ance would be? — I do not suppose the expense of tliis could be more t^ian about four dollars. Can you form any judgment what it would cost under the English form to make a con- veyance for similar purposes ? — I cannot speak to that, bul I believe there are verv few that are able to make out a good title in the English form in (Canada ; those that I have heard speak on tlie subject, have said that t!-y proin^r there tiiid out a deed made by auy notary. The notarr «4 Wbjt iBfli i.s obliged bylaw t«> keep all Ins minuteN in a certain order, iind av. 4>u he dies, the KiiiB takes poKsesNion of the whole of lii* records, and they are deposited in tie office of the pro- llionotary of tlic Kiuff's Ileudi for tlie dintrlct in which the notary officiated. Has it not been frequeutl . proposed ti» establish an office for the registry of deeds ?-. There liave been frequent pr'»posals. Have t'ey been successful 'r — Not an « of them. ' ^. •! . i • ' ,. Will \ on state what steps have been taken to carry them into eft'ect j bave bills to that effect been bron|»'ht into tlie House of Assembli ? — There I as been only one bill brought in- to tlie House of Assembly, w ich was lost by a majority of four or live. Will \ou state what are the frrounds of objection to the establishment of a register?— There are a great man \ grounds of objection; ditt'erent persons had different reasons for voting on the subject. I, in the first instance, voted in favour of the measure, and after- wai'ds I voted against it ; t' atis to say, I voted for the introduction of the measure, and when I came to examine into the details I found that the thing was not practicable. Ti;e only motive that I had « as to prevent fraud, and I found that the bill as proposed would occasion more fniud than it would pr(.'vent, and therefore I thought it was better to remaia ait we were. The truth is, that almost every head of a family in that province is a proprietor of land, and tliev , unfortunatelv, are not educated, at least many of the proprietors of land have been d«{)ri t'cd of the means of education ; they cannot do their own business; they could not cuuaplv wit'i the formalities required by the Register Act ; they would be obliged to employ law agents and persons of that description, wl:om we find, by experience, are not always safe, partit;ularh such as the great body of the people are obliged sometimes to employ ; tliey are of an inferior descrijition, and ma\ tricK them in all kinds of ways. Now, by that la'» there is not one man that would be obliged, at one time or other, to come into those register oHices, and, in fact, to put himself into the bands of a law agent to do the business for him, and there is not one of them hardl> that would be safe. Under those cir- cumstances they v onld lose their privileges ; wives would lose their privileges ; children ■would lose their privileges ; persons who have advanced money would lose their privile- ges ; and there would be probably fraudulent entries made in the book of registers w hich gives the privilefi-e ; so that, in reality, a great many of the poor people tvould be deprived of their only meaus of support, which is the land upon whicli they work. Would it not be jiossible, under the present state of things, for a person to horrow mo- ney and to f!o before a notar , giving what would be, to all appearance, a seciunty on land for that money, and that, nevertheless, other convcsances might have been made of that laud, or other money might have been borrowed upon it ; so that, in point of fact, that which Mould be an apparent security would be no security ? — No doubt. Would not 'a registry jwevent the possibility of that taking place ? — It would have a tendency to prevent the possibility of that taking place. Does the difficulty of establishing a registry arise fronpi the nature of the tenures and tU' mode of distributing the land held in the seigneuries V — Not at all; it arises from tho , p(>ople not being able to read and write, and the dispersed state of the country. Is it yom* opinion that if the people were better educated such a register would be bene- ficial ?— There is no doubt that a register office might be established for Quebec and Mon- treal with a tolerable degree of safety, diminishing the risk of tho^e fiauds being committed that are committed now. I ought, however, to have stated, with respect to thase frauds that are committed, that the reason why tiiey are committed frequently is, that the law which punished for this kind of fraud has been suffered to become extinct. The Frenph law was very severe against those persons who mortgaged property that was alreadi^ mortgaged be- fore M'itbout declaring it ; it was considered as one of the penal laws ; but iu consequence of the introduction of the English criminal law there was no statute which sufficieHtly pro- vided for that kind of crime*. The crime was one peculiar to the French syiit«m of laws, and it was provided for bv the French criminal code, but it was not sufficiently provided for in the EugKsh criminal code. Has any remedy ever been proposed in the House of Assesibljr V'-^Ye(«» it baa been pro- - ' . po* ^ ox THE CIVIL GO\ERNMfiNT OF CANADA.' posed in the Houae of Assembly to renew that punishment, so that the persons that j l .r . committed that fraud might be subject to pillory and imprisonment in that countrc, a9 "jitqiinrV*** well as tliey were in France. ' ^ -a. \ ^ Is it ditTicult to borrow money ia Canada in consequence of that mode of transmission of i24 May, 1828. property 'i — No, but on that subject there are a jjrcat many errors ; there ha« been a talk of much grreater fraud than there realty M'as ; from a circumstance unavoidable in a newr rountr., j)Oople have been supposed to be dishonest when they were no such thiiijr. Thir» teen years ag'o, land in Canada was worth double what it is to- e ad- ministration of the courts of law ? — I do not t' ink that t'ose people complain of any thing, except that they arc fiir out of the way ; because, unfortunately, the grants were made to them in a remote part, in preference to the grants being made nearer the St. Lawrence. But their great object nas been to obtain a representation in the Assembly of the Province ; and they have met in their usual way on Stanstead Plain, and hnve de- clared that they Wf^e satisfied with the bill that was passed by the Assembly, and they have petitioned the Assembly and the Council to psss that bill; they sav, that in the event of that bill passing, they think they can get a remedy for all their grievances ; that the first thing they want is to get a representation in the Assembly of the Province ; and the Assembly of the Province is willing to join them in redressing their grievances ; but any person that by cliance happens to have any connection with tne townships, goes and speaks as, if he was deputed by the townships. We liavc had twenty different stories told us in that way ; but the moinent they have representatives of their own to speak for them, every body will believe them, and there is no doubt they will get a remedy for every thing the^ complain of. There is one thing that it is desired to give tnem, which they have ia the United States, and tiiat is the pow«r of regulating their own little local conoeros, whipfa, I conceir*^ HI I. \ \\. f 't'i ::|l i,il ;l It- It MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ,h'i>i S'/ihon conceive, contrihiiteH very much to the prosperity of the United States; evwy diMtrirt I'.nqu'rt'. ' of country reyfuiat K iiial Nth of roinmoii convtiiienee, Hiu;h a« roads and hridtfi'H. What , A -^ can be done by an inasonable in it ; but the grand voyere perhaps, like other men, occasionally proceed carelessly and irreguliu-ly, aud there are some discontents upon that subject ; per* naps it may be thought that a grand voyer favours this individual ur that individual, but it IS often thought so when it is not the case. In what manner is the ^rand voyer paid '? — He has a salary from Government, and lie \ has got fees allowed him in some way or other. How is he appointed ? — He is apjiointed by the Governor. Is he appointed permanently, aud tor what extent of district ? — He is appointed during pleasure ; there is one for the distrit^t of Quebec, one for the district of Three Rivrn*, and one for Montreal ; and each of them may appoint deputies in different parts of the country, with the approbation of the Governor. Is the graud voyer constantly resident within the district entrusted to him ? — I be- lieve so. Ujion any application made for a new road, is it necessary for him to transmit the ap- plication to thfe Government ?— No, he acts upon his own discretion, subject to ratifica- tion in the quarter sessions of the district. Supposing it was desirable to adopt a system with respect to roads in Lower Canada similar to that which you say works so well in the United States, in what way could it • ~ be caiTied into effect ? — Of course by an Act of the local Legislature. The whole sys- tem, as I said before, is hitherto a French system of government ; it leaves nothing to be done by the people. It would be necessary to organize the counties, and to giye the proprietois certain powere of interference in their own affairs. Arc the counties sub-divided? — There has been no alteration in the division of coun- .ties since the year 1792, What sub-division exists at present ? — The old settled part of the coutitry is divided into parishes, and the newer settled is divided into tov\-nsnips and counties ; but the divi- fi'!on has been made merely with a view to representation ; there is no organization of ' countieti • .■ f i ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. «7 roiintiM, there arfi no riiinrter HPSHioiiM aful no coitrtM of justice ; every body is oblij^cd j^fin XrUs.ni, to roino to Qiioheo, Moatreul iiiiil Three UiverH. Rxqniie. Are tlioix* nnv iniijifiMtrateH appointed for the couiitien ? — There are. <• ^ , NV'oiild it be deHirable, in yoiir view, to eHtahlixh qiiartei* .seHsioiiN V— V*ea, provided ma- '•*< .Vi'si. ■ If tliey put iu per:M>us who liave no |)ropertv and vveij^ht in tlu? country, it will only create voufusioii. ^ , Who refuse to qualify ma<»istrat«'s V — The I.eyiNlativc Couucih Hiis there been any attempt to eMtabliith a system of local or rauijiation ?- There have been paitial attempts in the Judicature Bill: they have snb-dividud the couutfy for the piiq)0»OK of justice. ^ , If any 8U(!n attempts wefe nuido with a view to improving the country by making new roads, would they be resisted upon the part of tlie Assembly ? — Certainly not. No rban;jo that will be for the {general good of tiie people will be resisted by the Assembly, for the Assoniblv are the true representatives of tiie people j they mUst do what will be for the (j^ood of the people ; if thuy do not, they had better go home aud mind their owu bii" UiWSH. Do you Munpose that in case a system of local oryifanization wefe established in the towi.* iihips It would be likely to mtikc its wav, in the course of time, into the sei;riieuries, from a conviction of its advantages V— The people themselves in Lower Canada have bei'u desirous of having a voice in the raana— Upon the whole many of us have been rather afraid than otherwise that they would conform too fast to what they saw in their immediate neighbourhood, but I conceive there might be a great many improvements introduced amongst them with their own con- sent, without making them exactly such aa in their neighbourhood, foi* it is not altogeihei* H'hat we could wish. What is the proportion as to numbei^ between the French and English members in the Legislative Assembly ? — The proportion of what are called English haa been dimi- nishing within the last tivo or six years rather rapidly : there are only two natives of this country in the tlouse of Assembly. The question refers to the descendants of English parents, aa distinguished from French Canadians ?— There are many of good English names that cannot speak a word of Eu- trlish, and many of French names that cannot speak a word of Fi'ench ; in fact the lan- Siage of the majority always carries it fot a certain time, then it is acted upon by the nf^uage of the majority that may be farther off, but in the immediate viciuity it is always at hrst the language of the majority that carries it. Is that language the French language ? — That is the language of nine-tenths of the people. What is the proportion of persons returned bv constituents of English extraction? — It is impossible to tell that ; for those of English extraction are mixed throughout with those of French extraction. It would be as difBcult to tell in this country which are of Scotch extraction, or v hich are of Norman extraction ; but when English people have settled in a district inhabited by French Canadians, of course they cannot return any, be- cause they are the minority. It is always the majority that returns. Are there not a certain number of the members of the Hou' a of Assembly you con- sider the representatives of the English settlers ? — I consider tliat we have all the same interest in tnat country, hut we do draw lines ; sometimes it is said this man is a Scotch- man, sometimes he is a Yankey, sometimes he is a Foreigner, sometimes he is a Pro- testant, and sometimes he is a Catholic, but these are all nonsencical lines which have no real existence ; \i e have all the same rights and the same interests iu that colony, al- though our prejudices are different sometimes. Are the interests and feelings of the people that live in the townships equally regard- ed in the Assembly with the interests and feelings of those that live M'ithin the seigneu- ries ? — 1 cannot say as to that, for we have not oeen able to judge of their interest and feelings, they having had no representative entirely of their own choice. You are a membel* of the House of Assembly ? — I am. '• ■ ■ What place do you sit for ?— 'For the county of Quebec. •"- . Whrt t :\ ■-if % ^ ^ ^ •v^^ IKIAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) 1.0 I.I US ^ *■ ■tt 1^ 12.2 lU u 140 1^ lA H 1.25 |U ,,.6 ^ 6" ► Vl ^;; y^ Hiotographic ScMices Corporation 33 WEST MAIN STREET WEBSTER, KV. HIM (716) 872-4503 '^ .V o ^ \n 89 MINLTEI or EVIDBNCB DfiFORB SBLBCT OOMMITTBB John fftUtOHf t4 May, IBM. What fu« your conttittienta principaHy ?— The niRJoritj of them are what thej eril of French extraction. Have you sat for the county of Quebec ever since yon hare been in the Legitbiture ?— 1 have. What proportion do tTic Protestants bear to the Catholic-s in the LegisUtive As8em> bly ? — The Catholics have about seven-ci^fhths, but they have not quite so many mem- bers as thuir population tuiffXii entitle thorn to. Then in fact the inhabitants of the townhips, if they had an object distinct and »>. toarate from the inhabitants of the sci^fneuries, have no means of makings theni8«lT« ,nciu*d, or at least have no means of prevailing iu obtaining that object in the Assembly ?•. Not till t'.ey have renresentatives in the Assembly ; I conceive they have no fair c^iance, hecausc every body tliat is conucctcd with the townships tells a different story on the sub- ject, and they are very much suspected of having private views in the matter. Has there l)een any attempt made in the Assembly to give them a representation ?— ^e have passed a bill four or five times, but it was always rejected in the Council. In what mode was it proposed to extend the representation in the Assembly by those bills? — The (irst attempt was made in the >ear 1893, when I was in this country; Mr. Davidson was then chairman of the (Committee, and I have seen the report that he niude on the subject ; he consulted the surveyor-general for a statement of the population, be- cause we had not been able to get a ctnisns ; we had been endeavouring to get a ccnsin for four or five years, and the L<>gi!«lattvo Council refused the bill ; the surveyor-general, however, stated the population as nearly as he could, of the different divisions, and the representation M'as apportioned upon that statement throughout the whole province ; the bill was brought in and sent up to the Council ; they proceeded some length upon it, and made some amendments of it, but it never came bacl{ to the Assembly. The next year, in 1 824, they passed a bill providinjr for a census of the population generally, anil the Assemblv sent upon anotlier bill, which failed in the Council. \Vhi>' number of members did they propose to add ? — The bill of 1823 proposed to make the number 68 ; that is to say, to add 18 ; and I think the last bill that was sent up, which was in I82G, proposed about 80. Was not the pnnciple on which it n'as proposed to divide them, rested upon the nam- her of the people, and the addition that had taken place in the proportion of English in the population «inc« the first distribution in the year 1792? — The division was made upon tne principle of giving to a certain number oi qiuilified electors throughout the pru- viuce a representative ; I think that 7,000 and odd was to be the number that was to en- title to two representatives ; but there is a long report on the subject in the journal of the Tlouse of Assembly ; it was proportioned equallv throughout the province, in the new settlements, in the seigneuries, and in the townships the.v were all treated alike; for 36 years ago the settlements were very little extended any where, since that time they have extended in all directions, both sei^neurial i«ettlements and township settlements. What fresh sub-divisions were made of the people for the purpose of enabling them to exercise this new right of election? — I cannot say; tlere were a great many extensive counties divided into two. I succeeded Mr. Tavidson as chairman of the committee that broug t in the bill, and I recollect that I poitioned off the whole of the townsliipi separate from the seigneuries, so t' at there might be no interference in the election ; that the representatives o( the to«n!i8liip should be independent of the people in the seignen- ries, 8euntrv as it gradually oeca;.ne cultivated? — It was intended at that time to get a census bill every 10 yean, and to apportion the representation iipon the census ; that is the constant ptaotice now in the neighbouving countries ; and I believe it is a t-ery safe practice ; it preveudi •very thing that is unfair. ' ' . Wh»t * I ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. *. 89 portioned to each other. In Vermont I I^ve seen the conxtitution of 1793, which says that the representation shall be apportioned a8 enuallv as possible. There were very ffw settlers at that time, and I think that they allowed two representatives for a town, provided it t-ontainod 85 qualifiwd electors; and if it had not 85 qualified electors, it was ncverthelcHS to have one representative. What is the qualification of an elector? — In the first place beiny a militiaman, in the next plaire payin"; taxes to a certain amount ; I believe in the State of New-York they liave lately made an alteration : they made anv contribution in the shape of direct taxes sufficient. Is there not a combined principle in Vermont which has reference both to the extent of land and to the population ? — Not to my knowledge; I never saw any thing later in Vermont than the constitution of 1793. What provision is made in Upper-Canada for incrcasin|r the number of reprtsenta- tivos in tne Assembly ? — In Upper-Canada I know that they have a provision made by the local Lpgislature'for increasing' the representation ; but I cannot speak as to the details What" in your opinion would be the objection to establishing a system in Lower. Canada similar to that which has been described, recognizing a combined principle, rather than one tliat is to bo dependent upon population solely ? — I ttiink it would be very unsafe and very unsatisfactory to the people at large. I do not think that the town- ship people, or any other portion of the people of Lower-Canada would like to see a I departure from the general principle, that the number of representatives ought to be proportioned to the number or qualified electors. On n hat ground would it be unsafe ? — I think it is unsafe to deviate in a matter of that kind, 80 greatly from the privileges which the people enjoy in the adjoining states ; the people in Canada think they are entitled to privileges nearly corresponding with those which exist on the other side of the line, and I do not tliink it safe for this Oovem- Iment to deviate too much with respect to popular privileges, from what exists in the United States of America. If yon were to be convinced that the practice which has been described exists in the I neighbouring country, should you think that there is any ground of danger in adopting lit in Lower-Canada? — It is not very likely that I should be convinced on that subject; Ithere may be something that I am not aware of, but I am almost certain that there is I nothing that authorizes a departure from the principle laid down in all the American ■constitutions I have seen; but even if it were so, I do not think it is fair; 1 think it is [essential that justice sliould exist every where; I think it is the foundation of all jOoremment and all security. I Do you then mean, that numbers should form the sole basis of legislation ?•— No ; it I should be the number of qualified electors. What qualification would you propose ? — Tlie qualification is a qualification that has Ibeen established by Act of Parliament, it is territorial in the counties, and proprietors of Ihouses in t!)e towns, or paying a certain rent. I You say that in Vermont, when there are 85 qualified electors in a town, that town is ■entitled to have two representatives; but does the number of representatives increase laftern'ards in a rapid proportion, when the number of qualified electors increases? — J I have seen nothing of^ the constitution of Vermont except the constitution of 1793, ■which says, that when there are 89 qualified electors in a town, that town may send It^'o representatives, and that all towns that have not got that number, may send one; Ithat is to say, any town that has inhabitants may send one, but towns that liad a number lexceeding 85 might send two ; now a representation of that kiad is a most monstrous Iropresentation, for I have seen a house of^ 600 or 700 members all sitting together, rou- jstantly doing business. Every parish, in fact, sends two representatives, and they do jscnd in some instances, I believe, as many as they choose to pay. I Docs the number of rr Tesentatives increase in proportion to the number of qualified {individuals ? — No. Then the number of electors is not in proportion to the population ? — They make out jcensuses every ten years, and upon those censuses it is that they apportion the represcn- atives, so that every place may be equally represented. Then M l^i M % f {\ n i»0 ■it. MINUTES OF EVI HENCE IJEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE John Ncifson Then it appeal's that a town containing- 500 or 5,000 qualified eloctow, has the ramf Ksquirr. representation as ft town contnininff 85 fjujilified electors? — That is the constitution of , -^— — >1793; hut the constitution of 1793 estahlishes this piiiuiple, that it shall be as equal ai «4 May, 1828. possible amongst the qualified electors, and tlwiy roffulate it by special Acts fiom time to time. You are not aware of any chanpe havinsf taken place since that time ? — No. Then accordinjj to the system of 1793, there is no proportion estAblished between th< number of electors^ and the number of elected ? — Perhaps the best way will be to refer to the clause, and then every gentleman will be able to put the construction upon it that is most correct. Are gentlemen resident in Canada found to be generally averse to be members of the Assembly, or is it an object of competition amongst them ? — There was a great deal of competition at the last election. Were there many contests ? — Universally, almost. Do you know the system of representation in Upper*Canada ? — I know there hat been an augmentation o^ the representation there. The principle of the representation there is that every county now formed or organized, or whic'i may hereafter lie formed or organized, the population of which shall anioaut to 1,000 souls, shall be represented by ope member, and that when it shall amount to 4,000 souls, it fjhall be represented oy two members ; and that every town in which Quarter sessions shall he held, and in M'hich there shall be 1,000 souls, shall be represented y one member; would you think that a fair system ? — 'We do not claim so much as that; we would have t' oit'j-lit tliat tliat would I ave given us too numerous a representation. Their representation is nearly double ours upon the present system. Do you think that would be a fair basis or representation, not as to the numbers bnt as to tne principle? — I do not see any thing very objectionable in thatj but I will road an extract from the petition of the townships, by wliich they declare themselves satisfied with this bill; this petition was presented in 1825 to the Legislative Council and to the Assembly of Lower-Canada ; they say, " That the petitioners learn with most heartfelt | * satisfaction that a bill was introduced into the House at their last session, and which passed the same, providing for dividing the province anew into counties, for the more equal representation of the same in the Provincial Parliament, and for other purposes, and that they deeply lament that the same did not pass and become a law ; that is to mea- sures of a similar nature, espodnlly as it regards the eastern townships, that they look forward as the most ofFectiial remedy for the many difficulties under which they have long laboured as a people, aud of preventing in a good measure the evils which a conti- nuance of the present state of things would threaten them with for the time to come." That is the most nuitieroiisly signed petition that ever I saw come in from the townships; since that time the same bill has been sent up twice to the Legislative Council, and in ths, but it is impossible to tell; we were seven years without obtaining an Act authorizing a census. Do you know whether there were divisions in the Xegislative Council upon the amendments, or whether they passed unanimously ? — I cannot say ; but the journal of the Legislative Council of 1827 will show the proceedings. The bill was sent up in 1S24>, in 1H25, in 1826 and in 1827; there was an instruction in the year 1825 to leave out the clause relating to an augmentation of the representation ; in I82G there were no further proceedings on the subject; in 1827 this bill was introduced, and or- dered to be printed. Do you know what is the system which is pursued with regard to the qualification «f I members for Congress, as to apportioning tne number of representatives \thich each State is to send ? — Yes ; the population is the principle upon M'hich they go ; it is to be settled every ten years upon a census. Is it not wholly dependant on population, without any reference to the number to which the Congress may ultimately come? —I believe it is not at all settled to what] , number they ma^ ultimately come ; but they will of course confine it to a number that u - fit for doing business. b OJJ THE CIVIL G0VERNME?(T OF CANADA. flii is It not the fact, that the niiraber of representatives sent from a State to Confp'ess j^f^^ ;v«aioii» increases according to the increase of the population ? — The constitution of 1789 says, Etquir*. that the representation of the States shall be regulated according to their population, and^ .a^— -» I underfitaud that it is fixed upon a census every ten years. 84 Msjr 1MI> Have not wishes been expressed on the part of the townships that roads should be mado from the towuships through the suignctirics down to the river, iu order to give them access to that part of the province which is tlio most populous and the most wealthy, and to 9'ivo them access aUo to the river for the purpose of taking their produce to raarltPt '( —Yes. What has taken place in consequence of those representations V — There have beea large grants of money from time to time made for the purpose, which have been spent ! under the direction of the Executive (iovernmeut, ana conceruing which the people of ' the townships almost universally say that no good has been done with it. Wiiat sums of money have been fn-anted, and when ? — I do not know exactly, although the people of Lower-(Janada do nuike roads upon their own land, and are bound by law to do so, I think there must have been spent since the last war nearly j£ 100,000 for roads, of the provincial money. in what way has that money been raised ? — It has been taken out of the unappropria^ ted monies at the disposal of the Legislature. How has it been applied ? — The Governor appoints Commissioners, and the Conunis- sioucrs proceed to apply the money ; the people complain very much on the subject I throiivhout the country; they say that the Commissioners have endeavoured to make I roads for their own advantiige, and that they have made roads where they could ba I of no use, and that the consequence is, that the people derive no benefit from them< I What interest could the Commissioners have in the matter? — They have large tracts of land, and every one likes to have a road through his own land. Who have been appointed Commissioners ? — That will appear by the journals of the Assembly. By whom are they appointed? — By the Governor. Are they appointed permanently, or is a set of Commissioners appointed to carry a particular roaa into effect ? — They are appointed for a particular county, or for a parti- cular district; I think that Mi*. Felton, M. Heriot and Mr. Badeaux are for the 1 Three Rivers. Will you describe any one road which has been made with the public money ?— I can* I not mention any one roa^, for the people all say that there is none existing, the monev is spent, and the road has grown up ; there was a road called Craig's Road, upon whicU a great deal of money was spent ; there was a road called Labayo Road, upon which a I great deal of money was spent; and there was a road from'Sorel to the townships, upon \l I which a ^reat deal of money was spent. Does the making a road m Canada mean more than cutting an open way through the wood, and removing the timber and obstructions ? — Yes, it is necessary to do more than that ; the first opening, however, is mere by that. The first is sufficient for a sledge to ass in winter; the next is sufficient for a horse to pass in summer; the next is sufficient or a ciirt to pass in summer; and the next is sufficient for the common conveyance to market of a market cart, and then they think they have got a great way in improring the roads. To what circumstances do you attribute that the roads you describe as having been constructed grew up again ? — Tlie roads were made out of all reason ; it was attempted to make roads through an immense wilderness, where there was nobody setUed ; through the crown and clergy reserves, where there was nobody to look after it. Attempting such a road as th§|; was a waste of money. No road can be kept in repair unless tuere are inhabitants along the road, and there is travelling by the road. Has not one of the great objects of the Government of the United States been to extend great lines of roads ; and has not it been found that the extension of those line« of road uniformly brouffbt population upon the line ? — I csuuot say as to that ; they are doing a great deal as to roads in that country; they, are making military roa^ i|nd W' t fW y 09 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE H John NeUton^ and other roatb; and I have no doubt that where good roads arc made, it ia easier £iquire. to settle along those roads than irben they are miMrabU roads, such as are made iu '"""* ' Canada. ** ™*yi ***■• Roads having been n^tde, such as you have described them, to what do you ascribe that they have not had the effect of producing .'ettlements upon the line ?— tn the fint Jlace, you cannot find who are the proprietors of tlie land, for they have been granted or 30 years ago to persons, some -of whom are living in England, or in Scothind; and you cannot sit down alongside a crown reserve, or a cleivy reserve, because you have nobody to assist you ; the wild beasts will come in from the crown reserve, or the clergy reserve, and eat up all your crop. It is as much as a man can do in those coud. tries, in the first, second and third year, to derive subsistence from his labour, M'itiiout doing the labour of his next neighbours ; and then it is to be considered that the march of population, as the Americans say, is to the west, where the climate is milder ; Lower '- Canada is the hardest climate of all the North American provinces. The people like, if they can, to take advantage of a long river, like the River St. Lawrence, to go iuto a milder climate. ' lias not the increase of population been very rapid in Lower Canada, in the town, ships along the American borders ? — I think it was about 1798 that they began to settle; ana I believe that now, in that quarter, there may be about ii4-,000 souls. Of what origin ? — They are people that come in from the United States, native Ame- ricans. The nrst grants were made in 1706 ; and the people principally came in from the United States in the beginning of 1798, and on till 1812, when the war begun ; and since the war, I believe, the settlements have bccg going on increasing. What is the inducement to settle on the borders of the United States, in preference to _ settling on the part of the Canadas near the townsliips ? — Tlie object of the Americans """^ ^rgs to get good land, and cheap ; and the nearer their own country, tne easier it wm to get to those lands. * Did they get them cheaper in Canada than in the United States? — Of coum tjicy did. To what do you attribute that ?— I attribute it to a great many causes ; one is, that the ' i^mericaus are better managers than we are. In what respect are they better managers ? — They generally manage their concenu extremely well for their own profit and for their own advancement,; they have excellent regulations amongst themselves for the commpn advantage in settling lands, and making them valuable when they ire settled ; we are not so well regulated in that respect. Do you attribute it to a better system of government ?— rl think their system of loeal government is n)uch better than ours. There is another circumstance ; some of the people that come in from the United States to Canada are runaways, persons that have got iuto debt in the United States ; they come into Canada, and settle in Canada, became they arc out of the reach of their creditors ; those are not the best people for advanoiiiga settlement. To what do you attribute the difference in the value of land between the United States and Canada ? — I kIiouIiI say that their local affairs are better managed than ours. I know that !:? Derby, when I was there in 1811, the lands on the other side of the line ^'ere wurtb eight dollars an acre, and on our side they were not worth two. Have the inhabitants of the townships ever petitioned the Legislative Assembly for any purposes ? — Yes. -^ For what ? — They have petitioned for register offices ; they have petitioned for courts of justices ; they have had a court of justice ; they have been set off'into a new district. Was that as ;nuch as they petitioned for ? — I do not know that it was ; they probably wanted courts upon a more extensive plan. This is a limited jurisdiction; but the town- ships nere set off by the Act of 1823 into a new district, and an English judge appointed for them alone, and i» fraol built, and some things of that kind done ; however, there hat been a great deal of difficulty upon that subject. They had an Act for collecting small debts,and makingjustices of the peace courts, and things of that kind; butlrafhcr 8ui;pe<1 they would like to have courts upon a more extensive plan ; they are dissatisfied with tlie courts that they have. Have their petitions been senerally attended to ? — They have, but latterly I should say that the whole of the legiautive business of Lower Canada lias been very much neglfct- ed ; the differences between the executive Government and the Assembly, and the ol>jci • tit'Ili ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. OS tioM on the part of the Lein^lA^'^o Council to proceed upon bills iient up hy the Aiwembly, John AVi'/mu, hare prevented the legislative btwiuetis i'roni going on with that activity with which it ought £tqiiirii. to jfo on. ^ VSith respect to roads you mentioned that 100,000/. had been voted for male inj; them "^ "^*^' '^^*' in different parts of the couutry since the war ; do you mean since 1815? — In IHI^ithey be$^ to maKo appropriations ; in 1815 there was a grant of 15,000/., and there wati au« other lar^ grant of 55,000/. in 1817, and they have gone on gnidually ever since. Has any one good roiid been made with tliat money ? — Very little, I Iwlievn. Were those sums grunted upon the application of the executive (iovernment, or did they arise from a motion in the House ? — Some of them were upon petitions, some, 1 believe, from motions in the HouHe ; but there has been no grant pf publit; money made without au approbation on the part of the executive (Jovernmcnt. Were they appropriated to nutke particular roads ?— They were appropriated to piu'ti^ ciibr counties. Has there been any report of the manner in which the money wa* expended? — There .lave been reports made, but there is at tliis moment great disorder in Uu; m hole concern ; Uierc is to the amount of 150,000/. of monies advanced that have not been settled. Have tiie commiKNiouers salaries ? — No. Are they gentlemeu of the counties ? — Some of them reside in the counties, some in Iho toMiis, some of them reside in Quebec, and some in Montreal; but the thing has bveu badly maungcd altogether, and there is no regulai'ity. Hiive not the Hquse of Assembly sometimes refused to pass billp that have been sent ta them ? — I do not kno>v any road jjill that they have refused. Do you not recollect instances of road bills tluit have been introduced into the House of Assera'blv which the House of Aijsvrably have not passed i' — Yes, I recollect one about the cruwn and clergy reserves. Do you recollect why it was not passed ?— I cannot say, it was referred to a committee, and there was a report upon it. ^ Do you think tiiere exists in tlie House of Assembly apy disposition to discourage sctr ~' tlcments in the townships V — I do not believe it. If it has been said that the House of Ausembly reAises to pass road bills in order to dis* courage settlements in the townships, yqu do not beliore that to be a 4:orfect r^preseutsir tion 'f — I do noi. Do you think there exhta on th« part of the inhabitants of Lower Caiiada of French extraction, an indisposition to see the English settlers occupy land in the re«r of the sei- prneuries, and cultivate it ? — I do not think there is ; it is very natural, however, that th« farmers should wish to see lands at the back of them to settle their children upon, but ( do not think there is any indisposition to the settleijieut of the country by the people of Europe ; the general notion among tlie pepple is that Aineripii is Liiye enough for every body. Is there a strong idea in Lower Canada that Lower Canada was intended to be reser? red by the Act of 1791 for the French Canadians ? — I have t.eard that idea expressed. Do you think it prevails generally ? — I do not think it does generally ; but I am cot}.^ vinred that nuiny of the French Canadians think it hard tiiat they should not get land w'itli the same facility as other people. What obstruction is put in the way to granting lands to the descendants of the French Canadians ? — In the first place, they like to have every thing in the old way ; they havQ applied for land enfiefy and they have been refused. Do they object to take land upon the tenure of free and common soccage ? — They dQ not object to take lands upon the tenure of free and common soccage ; but they cannot (TPt them ; the lands there are granted out to a great extent back, 20 or 30 or 40 miles, if they find out who is the Qwner of a piece of land near them, they apply to him directly, and he asks them an extravagant price for it, a price that they cannot pay. To nhom are those lands granted ? — From the year 1796 do«n to a ute period, there was a practice of granting an immense tract of land, called a township, to a leader, I that leader gave a number of names which were put in the patent, and he ipanaged beforehand to get deeds of conveyance from them, so tnat ho became possessor of the whole; ' but it m 1 Oi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTED JA<\ yAUnn *"'*'" """i" 'ONtjinCos tho«e names l»ccamp actaally the patentees, they never tljouffht of Kqiiirc. ' Hcttliiiy the land ; he used to give them 5«. to g[ct their names, and in many instances tbej , — —A ■ .,_^8tood 88 tlie proprietors. At the present day they are not to be found, or tliey are |)fr> S4 M«y, I8U8. sons that have come to Eiidand or Scotland, and you cannot tell who is the proprietur of the liuid ; l)ut ii'you do And the proprietor oft'e land at the back of the seigncurin, where the people wuut to settle, lie asks an cxtravi gant pricefor it. Would you "toposo to iuterfere vith the rights uf those proprietors ? — All those laDdi weregranted b v tlio King on condition tt at they should settle on them, they have not perfor. med t> utcoudition. It was propose«I mi the tlouse of Assembly to pass a bill that should authorize t'c King's Ooverumcnt to proceed to escheat such hinds as might be in the im> mediate vicinity ot actual settlements; but it fell through, and there was an Act passed hen in the year I8Sj, nhich is of the same character, but it gives the Government the power toesclicat all over the country, perhaps 100 miles from any settlement. Now it is a liard thing to talk of escheating a inan*sland wlien he is out of the reach of all settlement, aft«r « lie hiis been put to the expenses of foes for t^ e patent, and other expenses. Uudoiibtedlj when the settlement comes alongside of him, it is proper that he should perform his duty ofscttleiiient, and if he did not, that he should be deprived of it ; but it is thought that that power miglit be used to take away laud from people on speciUation, and that has ex- cited alarm. Ho V would you propose to deal with those lands ? — To pass an Act of the Le^islaturr, that whenever there are settlements in a township, the settlers upon the adjoining luudi should have the Inuds echeated, unless they performed the duties of settlement. T. en voii would propose to enforce the Act of 1825? — Under that limitation, that it shoiild not extend to any other lands but t'^'ose witliin the limits of a settlement. You siiid just now that the price asked for that land is exhorbitant, and before that you said that landd were cheaper in Canada than in the United States ? — So they are, much cheaper tlian in the United States; there has been so much land thro ^^n in the market in Canada, that unles it is in the immediate vicinity of a settlement it will not sell for more tlian SJ.,_7^(/.j 10*^/., 1.*., and !»., 3(/. an acre ; but sometimes in the vicinity of a settle- ment it will bring a higher price. Tlie moment you go and settle alongside the land of one of tliosc occupiers, vou increase the yalue of his land, and from that moment if yon pur- pose to buy his land he a-sks an exorbitant price for it ; he >viU not settle it, because h« iiiid8 that ho cxn got a price for bis land by the labour of others. You have said that it was very much wished on the part of many persons in Lower €»• nada, XXuyi an agent should be appointed in this country, and that the power to appoint such an agent Iiad been refused ; for what purposes ditl you wish an agent to be appoiDt- ed ? — Generally to attend to the interests of tiie colony in this country, particalaily in matters that are before Parliament. The Parliament has reserved to itself the right of regulating our trade, and in fact, it is the supreme Legislature of the Empire ; and we have found by expt^rieuce, that latterly it has occasionally made laws tlut alFect as ; nut we think, that as we have no representation here, it would be conducive to the welfare of the colony, and probably to a better understanding of what is done here, if there were* person resident here that mi jjht attend to those matters. It may happen that there are abusej in the colony, concerning which it may be necessary to apprise the Government here ; now if tjiere frre abuses it would be better that there should be some person authorized by tlii colony, and recognized by the Government, to make representations to the Government, so that the nuitter may be quietly examined into and adjusted, any abuses of Ooverament there maybe put an end to by instructions to governors. An agent would be able to makt thecolony understood to the Government of this country in some mea8ure,and the Govern- ment of this country bet ;er unde^tood to the colony, besides attending to the busines before Parliament. Do you know who appointed agents to the United States in this country while tliei were still dependent upon this country ? — I believe the Legishiture of the colony. 1 think that generally the colonies that had agents have had them appointed by an Act of the Legislature of the colony, and they have agreed amongst themselves as to the person that should be t!;at agent. I believe that Nova Scotia has had agents, New Brunswick hiis an agent, Jamaica lias an ag:eiit ; we have applied since 1807 for an agent, and certainly ^ in there had been an a^ent, it would have prevented a great deal of alarm and ill feelin; I in the conntrj'. Hu | ON THE CIVIL OOVEUNMENT OF CANADA. M lOU^rht of lUCL'H tb«y ly an* |i*r. |)ru|)rietur iguctirin, ose land« lot pprfor. hat Hhould in the ID- Bsscd lien the power t is a liard naent, after udoubtedlj n hisdutjr DUf^ht that tat has «• jejfislatiire, iuing laudi lion, that it re tliat you ore, muoli ! market in pU for more ofa settle- laud of one if you pur- , because li« Lower Cs- to appoint be appoiiit- Uculai-ly in lie right of •e ; and we pet as ; now welfare of licre were I are abusei here ; no* [ized by tbi )ovcniinent, tovcrument Ae to niakt [he Govem- ] [he busineit rhile tbei colony. 1 Ian Act of I the persos I Bruuswick ]id certainly Lill feellDS Hm Has Nova Scotia now an agent of that description ? — I do not know that it has now ; I K-^quiVu.' know that New Brunsw ick has an agent now. How do you propose that the agent should be appointed? — By an Actof theLegi8la-24 May. lii'.^B. With the consent of the Governor? — No /.ct can pass without the consent of the Gov- ernor. The last time it was proposed to have a contcrence with the Legislative Council on the subject, but they maintained that there ought to be no agent, that the (lovemor is the agent for the province. That may be so, but it is very difficult in matters, particuhirly vhere tliere may be complaints against the Governor, that he should be the agent. Who V ould instruct tliat agent if you had one ? — The usual method has been that thcro »fionld be a committee named by the Council, and one by the AsHorably, and that they (ihonid send him instructions ; or if they did not agree upon the person that shall be th« agent, they name two. The only object is, that the branches of the Legislature of the colonies may be heard in this country. It may bo irregular in some respects, Imt there haa been a necessity found for something of that kind. I rather think that agents have done more good than harm upon the whole. Witn regard to the Canada Tenures Act, which contains a pow er for chang[ing the te- niu-e of land at the option of the holder of ttic land in the scigneuHes, is that objected to in Lower Canada, and arc the provisions of that Act matters of complaint ?---It now has had no execution ; the people have viewed it M'itli some degree of alarm, because they conceived it as the commencement of an attempt to destroy the laws of tlio country under which they hold their property, and particularly that part of it M'liich declares that when- ever a commutation is made the nroperty shall be under the laws of England. Now that my property should be under tlie laws of Canada, and that my next door neighbour's pro- perty should be under the laws of England, seems to me to be impracticable. The people imagined that it was the commencement of a plan for destroying the laws to Whicn they have been accustomed, and in consequence it excited some alarm, and the people were in- disposed against it- Do you know what has taken place at New Orleans since it u-as made a part of United States y — There can be no difficulty tl ere, because the majority of the people appoint the Legislature and the Governor; the majority of the people make the laws, and they must always be satisfied, because whatever is done is done by consent of the people themselves. Has not the Frencli law been adopted there V — 1 believe they have adopted a code very much like the Corle Civile ; and if there were a code drawn up, tliere would bo no objec- tion to the law's in Lower Canada, for the objections arise more from ignorance tlian any thing else. People will not inform themselves of what the law is, and then they find that they have committed blunders throuj'h their ignorance of the law. What are the peculiarities in the state of Lon'er Canada tvhich have occasioned it to re- main so much behind the rest of the Continent in point of information ? — The country is ver\' much extended, it is difficult for people to establish schools themselves ; they had no authority till lately even to hold property for schools, and under difficulties of that kind it is natural to suppose tiiat education would not spread so rapidly m in the United States, where from the commencement there hsis been a regular provision made for schools on pretty much the same plan as in Scotland. In Lower Canada we have had nothing in fa- vour of schools except the Act of 1801, which has done more harm tl an good with respect to the general advancement of education, for it alarmed the people with regard to their re- ligion. The schools were under the control of persons that they considered adverse to their religion,and it was thought that it was attempted to get the whole of the children to school in order to convert them, or pervert them, as they called it, and it excited a great deal of alarm. I deliver in a copy of the Resolutions of the Legislative Council of the 6th of March 1821. [The tcitness delivered in the same, which teat read as follows ;] " Besolved, That it is the undoubted constitntional right of the Legisktive Council to have a voice in all Bills of Aid or Supply, or Money, of any kind levied upon the People of this Province by the Legishitnre tnereof ; and in tdl Bills for Appropriation of the same, whatsoever (he purpose may be : *« Besolved *■ 'i I m w^ ii' \ '1 "' 'I i 00 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I i'li.i, ilii^-ii John NtUtoHt " ResolTod, That tho tuiiil right «ztendii to thn approval or rejection of all BilU of M K«|uire. q,. Supply, or Monies nforefwid, and of all Bill* of Ap|rropriation fbr the whole or any Mrt '""Tp*"""^ — ^ofaufln Aid or Supply, or iiuch Monicti, and that no leifal appropriation uan be made'witb. * «!•>» '^^' out the concurrence of the three brancheH of the Le}(iHliitiin> : " UoHoived, That tho LeffiHiative Council M-ill not proceed upon any Bill of Aid or Sup. ply which nhall not within the knowledge of this Ilouno have ajiplied fur by the Kiii),'i ' Heprenentativo in thin Province : ' I " lloaolved, Vhat the LegiMlative Council ivill not proceed upon any Bill appropriatin; Public Motley, that Nhall not within the knowledge of this House have b'cen recorauiendti by the King'K Iteprenentative : *' ReRolved, That the Legislative Couacil will not proceed upon any Bill of Appropm. tion for Money, issued in consequence of an Address of tiie Assembly to the King'x I^ presentative, (Addresses of the AJMnibly for the expenses of that House excepted (unlm upon some extraordinary emergenoy unforeseen at the commencement of a Session, an^ wnich unforeseen eraeiyency will not allow of time for passing a Bill of Appropriation f« the same iu the session when the Address shall have been voted : " Resolved, Thut the Legislative Council will not proceed upon any appropriation A public Money for any Salary or Pension hereafter to be created, or any augmentatinn thereof, unless the qirantum of such Salary, Pension, or Augmeutatioa shall have bofo recommended by the King's Representative. *' Resolved, That the Legislative Council will not proceed upon any Bill of Approprii- tion for the Civil List, which shall contain specifications therein by chapters or itcinii, m * unless the same shall be granted during the life of His Majesty the King : " Resolved, Ttiat nothing containea in these Resolutions shall be constnied to prerni \ ' or infringe upon freedom of debate and decision in this House upon the merits of any nut- ter which shall be recommended by His Mi\}esty's Representative, or npoll any Bill reii- ting to Public Money, upon which this House, according to the ^irit of tnese Rosolutiom, | can proceed." Mr. Neilaon. — I also deliver in a copy of the Resolutions of the House of Assembly of the Idtli March 1821, which were founded upon the Resolutions of the Council that i'uitiI just been read. [The witnesi delivered in the same, which wa$ read, aa follows :] "Resolved, That this House has never done nor claimed any thing contrary to uLat u stated in the said Kesolutions of the Honourable the Legislative Council : " Resolved, That the Honourable the Legislative Council cannot constitutionally pr(^ cribe or dictate to this House the manner or form of proceedi ug on Bills of Aid or Supply, nor nponanymatteror thing whatsoever, and that every attempt of the Legislative Council tor that purpose is a breach of the rights and privilegesof this House : That the right of orifn"*- ting Bills of Aid or Supply belongs solelV and exclusively to this Honse : That the right of originating Bills of Appropriation of Public Money belongs solely and exclusively to thu Honse : That this Honse are astonislied that the Honourable the Legislative Couneii hart passed Resolutions and adopted rules which affect the constitutional rights and privile;<;M of this House, without havin^r heard the reasons to the contrary which miglit hare been given on tlie part of this House : That the said Resolutions have been adopted by the Honourable the Legislative Council without any difficulty or dispute harinft arisen between the stud Lenslative Council and this House respecting the matters tliereia set forth, and that the said Resolutions^ adopted gratuitously and unnecessarily by the siii Legislative Council, are of a nature to retard the re-establishment of that harmony and thit good understanding between the two Houses which it i^ desirable should prevail for the good government, peace, and welfare of the people of this Province : That all Resolutions br ~ which one branch of the Legislature Uy down for themselves beforehand, and in a general manner, a rule not to proceed on Bil^ of a certain form or description, which may be offrr- ed to them by another branch, is contrary to pu-liamentary laws and usages, to the Consti- tutional Act, and to the liberties, rights and privileges of the other branches of the Legisla- ture, and even of that branch which adopts such resdutions : That hy constant parlianwD- tary usage, recogniied by several Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdie Frcncli institutions and an's. Do you find timt dislike confined to tlie En;irlis!i population, or is it common to the Freuc ) ? — Certainly not ; the Frcuch arc anxious to preserve tlieir peculiar institutioitf vith as little alteration aspoKslMe. Is not the Frenc'i population much more numerous than t' c Engrlish ? — It is. Tlie Frencli and Eng^lis'i population are ver« little mixed; and even v here they reside together, ax in to^'ns, tiiey ao not associate, but form, as it were distinct ciistes. In the seigneuriul part of Canada, along' the banks of the St. La ' rencc, the French population is prett . roucii unmixed. There is a mixture of English population in f>ome of the touns ; and in v hat are called the eastern to ve year 1 784 or 1785 to t e year 1821, carried on wholly by an atmociation called the North Went Company, and although the partnerH of tha( com|mny «< ere nhvayH choHcn by ^ a rejifulur HVHtem of promotion of nu'ritorious clerks, I believe only four CunadiniiH ever caiutf to bo partneni ofthe comjiany, and one of them through a circumHtance of family roanection. I have no objection to utate the fact, but it is not of any moment, and it iniu[lit olTend ti'e party ; but t e inferior servantit were alnuist «vl oily Canndians. Uo the perHuuH m horn you describe as enjfajjjred iii ''onunercial pursuitM in Luwor Canada inve»t t eir money ia Lower Cnnado, or .u'e t"ey in ' *> hubit of remittin^f it home ?— They are ver> much in the habit of remittiiij^it home ;ii' i I am perHuaded that tiiat prac- tice an tended t ) »rov; Htatex ore imnroved. Are you Hufficieutty acqtuiiuted w ith upper ( .ada to be n* Ic to aav whether the name habit piwuiU there ; that in to aav, «« hefher p raong mal^ 1^ money in coioinerrinl pursuita reir ' ^'x ■ inonoy home or invoxt it there ? — I know R-:ai <'ly any inntjince of any nerttons haviit;; acquired money in tite t)ppei Province having lei" it. They become ffenerally Inrjre holdorii of land. There are several persons that I kiiOA now who have been Ion;; talking of leaving; the province, but they still remain there. You meuu perxous tliat are en^^red in commercial pursuits ?— T> .':* have l>een persona eujn^r^d in commercial purHuitx, proprietors of mills, and dealers in produce freiic ally ; be- ciiiiitf tliu commerce of the country is limited to the produc-> of the laud, and to importation of mauufai.-tur<;8 and colonial produce for consumption. Aro t he Committee to infer from t at, that the tenure of land, and the mana;rcment ofpio* pcrt;^iu Upper Canada, is upon n footing; more acceptable to per.'^ons of British orijpn than It is in Lo>\er Canada ? — Undoubtedly ; and I may statu further in favour of that opinion, tbat although at a greater distance from a market, and a much greater distance from a iiaviv ffdtioQ, and under various disadvantageous circumstances, arising from its remoteness, land in Upper Canada, is of considerably more value than land ot equal fertility in Lower Canaod. Docs the superiority of the climate in Upper Canada tend materially to produce that ad- ditional value ? — In part, certainly. To » hat do you attribute the other part ? — To the superior eligibility of land held under the institutions of Upper Canada over land under the institutions of Lower Canada; ia corroboration of which I would add, tliat where t .ere is not much different e of climate, where t!ic laud Vi merely divided by an imaginary line separating the province of Lower Canada from the States of New York and Vermont, the land in the townships on the Canadian side of tlie line is in many places scarcely saleableat 1<. an acre, and on the other side of the line it is sold at 10«. Vis. and \ut. When you sa* tbat the inhabitants of the English townships, and the Englis!) inhabit- ants of the towns in Lower Canada, are desirous of Englisn law in preference to the French bw, do you mean that they wish for the English law of primogeniture, and the Eiij^lish forms of conveyancinjg, or that they wish for the English law aa it is establish* ed 111 the United States V—I should think that those who are not lawyers do not exactly euter into the' difficulties relating to the English form of conveyancing, and the other difficulties of the Engli»^'> 'aw. Are the Committee to understand that thev wish for the English law as it is practiced io tlM StatM of Vennoqt and New York?~Yes, it if only in that w#y that tbey have » , ■ I i\ i l.A '■ ti I' Ktii MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE vrni/ ^ '- — ^ 3 June 1U2«. Mr. S '^^'CtV/i" a knowledge of it. I should say, that in speaking of English law, they may be consi- dered to meiin, and merely to wish for an exemption from the disadvantages they feel "* under the French law. Does the system of Fr.-nch law which prevails in Montreal and Quebec mateiially af- feet or imjiede the commercial pursuits in Lower Canada Y — It creates very considerable ditHculties in many respects. The want of a bankrupt law, and of any provision for ar- ranging insolvent estates, causes considerable difficultv in recovering commercial debts ; and the system whereby every contract entered into before a notary is held to be a real security lipon the whole of a man's estate, makes it difficult to know when a debt is se- cured or not ; because an instrument in. the possession of an obscure notary, or amonn^ the papers of a deceased notary, may be produced, of any date, almost forgotten by the grantor of it, and unless formally cancelled, it amounts to a mortgage over the whole of his property. Does tha- prevent the practice of lendin* money upon mortgage ? — It does undoultt- edly ; beeause it is impossible to know when you can safely lend money ; and it also throws so much doubt upon titles, tliat it has made the system almost universal there of transferring property under a sheriff's sale, Mhich, after a certain time, sets aside al> al- leged hypothecary sei-nriti ; and, in fact, sherift''8 sales are so general, that if you take up a Canada newspaper, particularly the Quebec Gazette, you generally see half of it oc- cupied with sheriffs sales. Are pei"sons engaged in commerce in Lower Canada at all impeded in their commercial pnrsuits, by the laws which exist with reference to personal property ? — I am not aware that they are impeded in buying and selling ; as to the disputes between merchants, the case certainly is attended with difficulty, because the establishment of a system of trial by jury would he preferred by Englishmen to the manner in which questions are decided there. With reference to the laws themselves, is there any thing in them thsit is productive of inconvenience, or of which merchants have reason to complain ? — 1 believe there arc a ntnubcr of regulations still enforced as part of the " Coutttme de Paris" that are in- Applicable to modern times, but I am unable to speak to them. Are •, on acquainted with the district of Lower Canada known by the name of the Town- ships ? — I have never been there ; in fact they are inaccessible to travellers, and can only be visited in summer on foot or on horseback, and in the winter when the mow roads are good, there being no roads between them and the bank of the river. Arc! yon at all acquainted with the transport of goods between the Lower Province and the Upper ? — Yes. Are the merchants who import goods for Upper Canada exposed to any difficulty, or to any unfair taxation. in the transport of goods through the Lower Province into the Upper V — I believe the merchants JU"e not exposed to any difficulty, because where they have to pay a duty upon importation it sijfuilies nothing to the payer where he pays it. The province of tipper Canada has complained of being deprived of a part of the duties, and disputes have aiisen between the provinces as to the distribution of the duties so col- lected. Where are the duties now taken? — Ai Quebec, I believe, entirely ; I am not sure whe- ther part of them are not now taken at Montreal ; the old system was that they wore taken wholL at Quebec, but that was complained of at Montreal. Is the consumption of foreign goods by the two provinces similar, or does the differ- ence of the origin and manners of the inhabitants create much difference in their con- sumption ? — I should think that the articles that pa\'^ most duties ai-e liquors, wine and spirits. I should think there is more wine consumed in Lower Canada than in Upper Ca- nada; probably they distill grain and consume less of the imported spirits than the peo- ple who are nearer the market ; such at least w&s the opinion of the commissioners who met to determine the distribution of the duties between the provinces. Then in the arrangement of the duties, do the taxes bear rather more heavily upon tlie Lower Canadians than upon the Unper, according to t'le relative proportions of the po- pulation ? — So far as liquors go, I snonld saj' so ; in regard to other commodities, I should think that from the habits and the superior comforts of living of several of the people of Upper Canada, the reverse is the case ; so that very probably the distribution of the comuiissioners was a fair one, when they took population as the criterion for the distiibn- tion of the dutic» on importation. bi ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. lot II lu the imposition of taxes, which is altog^etlier in the hands of the Lower Canadians, ^^'" '^- ^f'0^l. is there any fpround of suspicion that an unfair use has been made of their power in that lifrnif. respect; that tliey have imposed taxes which they thought were more fikely to fall ni)onC"]J ^."r^ the Upper Canadians tlian upon themselves ? — I am not aware that there is any such ira- " ' nression :— I have no such impression. Arc tliere any taxes upon the transport of ^oods from the interior ? — There are no du- ties of any importance; some goods are received from the United States, upon which there is a heavy duty charged. Do you mean goods transported from the territories of tlie United States at the south of the province ? — Yes, the duties appear to have been intended to act Wi a prohibition, and they have so far operated as to be a prohibition of export by that channel, which was one great cause of promoting the canal which lias been constructed in the State of New York. Do any of tliose export duties bear upon the produce of Upper Canada? — 1 am not aware that they do upon the produce of Upper Canada. Are you at all acquainted with the mode in wl.ich lands are granted by the Ooveni- ment in Lower Canada ? — The grants made siuce the conquest have been made in town- sliips, laid out in a similar manner to what they are in Upper Canada ; the townships are generally about 10 m^les square, which are divided into lots of 200 acres, and a certain number of those lots reserved for the Crown and the clergy, generally onc- seveutli for the Crown and ne-seventh for the clergy. Do you know whether the size of the grants, or the mode in which they have been distributed, has had a tendency to retard their cultivation ? — Undoubtedly; making largo grants in the townships nearest to the seigneuries must have tended to prevent cultiva- tion ; but the seigneuries themselves are not yet entirely cultivated to the boundary of the townshij)S ; it is only the front piece of land immediately bordering upon the river ; tliat is very thickly peopled, so thicK, that from a distance the houses along the road look like a continued village ; but if you go hac\f. three or four miles, the country is very partially cleared. Then bej'oud that again, and towiOids the American boundary, is there not a district railed the Townships? — Yes, the seign!?uries extend, I believe, generally about 12 or 15 miles from the river side, and the whole country from thence to ti.e boundary line of the province is laid out in townships, of which, I believe, surveys were made, and I know "" the provincial government is by no means satisfied of their accuracy. Can you state generally any measures or any course that could be pursued by M-hich it would be likely that the land you now describe as lyin^ waste between the seigneurie-t and the American border could be brought into cultivation ? — I know no plan that would be likely to br so ciiectual as that of taxin, gueuries. Is the land that is set apart for the clergy reserves so located as to produce great in* convenience to the settlers ? — It is, undoubtedly; because laying out every seventh lot ' for that purpose, and another seventh for crown reserves, and supposing the iuterntedi- " ate lots aojoiuing the river or the road to be occupied and partially cleared, yet the man that has to get to the lot beyond the reserves cannot reach his farm or carry his products out of it without going to tlie expense of opening a road through the reserve, and that he cauuoi Afford ; so that the roservoii generally are an impediment to settlement. It V I •I : *A t I i.;h M f1vi| IM MINT'TES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. S. M'Gitli vrny. -i Is that in its«lf a snIHcient reason to account for the land between the townsltips and the sei^neuries reiuaiuiti^ uuHettled ?-^It it* only one cause, and it eontributeH with other S June, 1828. causeH ; because, whether the land be a clergy reserve or a crown re^rvc, or land grauU ed to a non-roHideut proprietor, the c^wX is the sumo. Do you think the absentees have been deterred from cultivating their land by the cler. gy and crowir reserves ? — It has increased their Jiiliculty. Are you acijuainted with the eic.i^iurcs that have been had recourse to ia order to com< pel tlie absentees to fulfil tiic conditions of their grants b> cultivating the land ?r7-In Up. per CJanada I know that some legislative measures have, been adopted for the purpose of making improvements, and of taxing the lands of absentees to contribute to those int. provements. Are not tlte clergy reserves claimed by different religious sects in that country ?— I thiak that dispute has arisen in t' is way. About four ycai-s ago Government made a con» tract with an associatiou of merchants, of which I was one, for disposing of a certain por. tion of the clergy reserves, aud the whole of the crown reserves ot Upper Canada to that company, for the purpose of sale and settlement, and it >vy other persons to be, and subsemiciit- ly other denominations, the Presbyterians particularly, and various parties in the House of Assembly in Upper Canada, have claimed a share in the distribution of the produce of the clergy reserves. The established cluirch claim the whole right as tlie Protestant Church, for whose support the reserves were originally designed. Others claim a parti. cipation in it, as being generally appropriated for the support of a Protestant Church, without any exclusive reference to the Church of Engl.ind. Are the Committee to understand that this state of things arising from tliose different claims having been so long made, and it'being uncertain to whom those clergy reserves ° really belong, has produ<;ed a great deal of discord and irritation in the province ?— I should say not a great deal ; it has very recently produced some discussion and conteu> tion in the newspapers ; but it is a question of very recent occurrence ; it is a c^uestioa that had scarcely begun to excite public irritation when I was last in the province, in 1825. ' Are von not aware that the Legislature of Upper Canada has repeatedly come to votei upon that question ? — Yes, recently they have. Have you any general notion of the uumbci's of the diflFerent sects in the colony ?— I have not, and i:i fact it is rather a difficult point to ascertain; I have endeavoured to collect some specific information, and I have not been able to do it. Would you state generally tliat the Church of England s-'re iu a great minority or not, ill the proviupe of Upper Canada ? — If numbered against all others, I should say deci- dedly they were. I Was there not a resolution to that effect passed in the House of Assembh', and can-ied by a majority of at least 24, the minority amounting to only tl>ree ? — So I have under- stood. You are a member of the Canada Company ? — I am. » What was the nature of the contract made between the Government and tlie company with respect to the lands that that company was to hold? — The contract was made for •'"' , the purpose of pui'chasing from tlie Crown the whole of the crown reserves which had ' not then been granted (they have since been found to amount to about 1,400,000 acres,) and one half of the clergy reserves which had not been granted or leased previously to the Ist of March 1824 they amounted to about 840,000 acres, t erefore it was a purchase by tl^e company from the Crown of about two and a quarter of millions of acres at sucb price as shouldf be a«> arded by commissioners, and to be payable to Government in iu- sta!ment« in 15yoars. Were the commissioners to award the price equally for the crown reserves and for the <;lergy reserves ? — They wera to award generally the price between the G<»Terument and the purchasers of all the land. Hai On tllE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 108 me to votes luiie, 1838. t!M*ny|M-iM been fix*tl upon th«» crown reserrrs ?— Yes ; a price wm fixed by the ^ - Afrtt- f«port of the commissioners on both the crown and v\evgy reserves, but the best evidence MGilli. Upon that subject would be fie Report itself, which is in the Colonial Office. ^__ What payments have been made by the Canada Company to the Ooveniment ? — I be- j Ji lieve, indudinjf a payment which may be considered a« made becadse it has been ordered to Iw made, and it will be made within the present month, the amount is 35,000/. Is there ftnv part of it an annual rent or finft ? — No ; it is the price fof the purchasd of 80 much lana paid in anuiiul iustalments ; the sum paid consists of the two first years instalments. Are the instalments fixed in annual payments of 15,000/. V — They are fixed at the an- hnal instalment of 20,0'JO/. the first year, and 15,000/. the next year, and going on so as to nuke up the whole sum in 16 years. What is the obligation of the company *«» to taking up the lands ? — They arc under the oblignf ion of taking up a certain portion of the land auiuiully, or paying a fine to (Jovern- ment in lien of settlement duties ; they are compelled either to occupy a certain portion of the land every year, or to pay a penalty in case of failing to do so. How taanv years have thov existed ? —Thpjr pot the charter in September 1826; t should state upon tliat subject, that the proceedings of the Company have been very mtich dela ed by the dispute w Jch arose from t e representations of the Clergy Corporation. A delav ensued in granting the charter and in enabling the company to proceed with their operations, and in the mean time w: at was called the commercial or financial pa^- Bic arose in England, which depreciated the value of all speculations of this description^ and i.as been particularly) i.ijunous to the interests of the stockholders of tlio Canada Company. What portion of the land is the company actually in possession of? — We have only ta* ken artual possession of that which we have placed occupants upon. Upon what terms i ave you placed occupants u|H)n it ?— On the terms of sale to those (>ersons. We I ave contracted ^iti a man that he is to pay so much, and we put him nto possession of t'ie laud, giving him a title after he has paid a certain proportion of the price agreed on. Is the land all in one mass ?— ^No ; the crown reserves are in detached lots. In t e improvement and cultivation of the land which you ha^'c obtained from tti- er Canada ? — Chielfy from Lower Canada; nntil wit in a few years bot^i Canadas ive^c supplied with the produce of China and of India ver^ much thrcugiittie United I States ; but in consequence of a measure adopted by t'le East India Company, of send^i ing teas direct to Quebec, whic*) are not subject to the heavy English duties, I believe I I te balance of imports is rather the ot:.er way now, and that some find tiietr way from Caiad* to tb« United States. \ i I'! ' 'J .'it U )04 MiNUTteS OF feVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTED 3 June, 1828 S M'Cilli way 1828 ?''"^ an object of any importance; bi ' * both sides of the lake, cluefly arisinir in tlieir own ports ; if a vessel toutfiie w e \ Is there much smu^^gUnfif from the United States into Upper Canada, or vice vena?— should think not ; the duties in Upper Canada are not sutnciently large to make sniiiir. • ■ . /. — . .. but tlierc is a considerable war of custom-houKes on from the restrictions imposed on American vosspIs ports ; if a vessel touches on the Eng^lish side of the lake she is considered to have come from a forci^ port, and is subject to a heavy tonna^^e duty. Is much of the produce of Upper Canada transported through the American- canals? —No. How is it that it is an object to the inhabitants of the southern shore of the lakes, who are American citizens, to transport their produce t!i rough their canals, if it is not so to the inhabitants of Upper Canacla ? — 'Bucaune their produce is subject to cx)n8iderable daty on b&ing sent througii Lower Canada, tf the navigation of the St. Lawrence had been thrown open for the produce of the south side of the lakes, I think that those canaLi never would have been constnicted ; and that it was to avoid our transit duties and import duties in Lower Carada that the people of New York were induced to attempt works of such magnitude and difficulty. If those duties w ere taken off now would it restore the trade ? — I should think not, because the canals are constructed, and the great advantage of the harbour of New York, the capital accumulated in t' at city, the enterprise of 'ts merchants, the propinquity of its haibour to the West Indies, as well as its being open all the year rouna, whereas the St. LaM'rence is closed half tiie year; I think these circumstances would counterbalance the advantages on the other side, yet still of bulky articles a considerable quantity would come to the St. Lawrence. What is the object of the transit duties ; were they imposed to prevent American commodities being brought to England or the British colonies ? — I should think that was the objoct. The Canadians claimed particular advantages in exporting their produce to England and to our colonics, either free of duty or at a reduced rate of duties ; aud in order to prevent the American produce sharing in those advantages, those duties were levied, partly with a view to secure to the actual settlers of Canada the advantages given to them in the exportation of their produce to England and to our colonies. Would not this system of transit duties entirely prevent the produce of the American states tinding its way along the St. LanTence when the Rideau Canal is constructed ?— The Rideau Canal, I should think, will never bring down much produce ; it is an important improvement in the country with a view to its military defence, but whilst the St. Lawrence is open, and whilst considerable craft can come down the St. Lawrence without impediment, I should think that man^ of them will never come down through the Hideau Canal. Boats may go up the Rideau Canal, but T should think the waters of the St. Lawrence will always be the channel in coming down. Will much of t' e produce of the American territory on the south of Lake Erie pass through the Welland Canal ? — I think a great deal will. With a view to find an ultimate outlet by the American canals ? — Either by the St Lawrence or tlie American canals. According to a calculation I have seen, I believe it might be of advantage for the sloops and schooners which navigate Lake Erie to pass tiirough the Welland Canal, if they are permitted to pass without any transit du^y, to carry their cargoes either to the mouth of the Oswego River, or to go down the St. Lawrence to Prescott. Will npt the principle on which the transit duties are established apply at all to the Welland Canal ? — I am not certain about that ; I hope if they do apply that an alteration nay be made« Have those transit duties, on the whole, been injurious to the colony ? — They were meant to be beneficial to the colony, by encout aging the increase of its cultivation, but I believe they have actually been injurious to it. Theu they have not had the effect of increasing the cultivation of the colony ? — Whether they may have increased it in any material degree I do not now ; I believe the injury has been greater than t) e benefit. Would tlie union of the two provinces materially facilitate the commerce of either province ? — Of Upper Canada it would. In what way ? — By giving them a control of the direct port of entry and communi- cation ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT 07 CANADA. 1«6 cation with the rest of the world, which at present they arc obliged to hare through the j/v-. a. M'Git' jurisdiction of Lower Canada. livroy. Do the Lower (!anadians exercise that jurisdiction in such a way as to impede the< ■ ^ — i e^mmerce of the Upper Canadians ? — The power of the Legislature of Lower Canada * June iKtt. has been t?xercised so as to be an impediment to commerce generally, particularly to that • of Uppur Canada, because it was that M'hich was most exposed to it. In what manner hare they imposed that impediment ? — I can speak of general results mnch more than of details, and I am not prepared to enter into expuuiations upon that subject What sort of goods have you been in the habit of importing into Upper Casada ? — Into Upper Canada 1 nerer imported much ; the goods I was chiefly in the habit of importing from England to Lower Canada were British manufactures of various kinds fit for the Indian trade. I never was engaged in any local trade in the colonies ; I was engaged in the Indian and fur trade as a director of the North West Company. Our imports from England consisted of manu&otures, arms, ammunition and clothing for the supply of the Indian trade, and we purchased in America provisions and tobacco and rum, and those articles were sent up tnrough Upper Canada in their way to the Indian territories in the north west ; that was the trade I was chiefly engaged in, and that trade having met with no impediment feota any legislative restrictions, I am therefore the less prepared to an- swer the last question. Did they pass from province to province duty free ? — Yes ; having paid the duties upon the importation into either province, they passed free to the other, and there was no drawback. Do you know any instance in which different regulations of trade, affecting the same commodities, have prevailed within the two provinces at the same time ? — I am not suffi- ciently aware of the details of the local trade to answer that question. Are not the complaints of the Upper Canadians of this sort, that the duties levied in the Lower Province are applied to the local purposes of the Lower Province, and not applied to the purposes of^ the Upper Province ? — As far as I understand it, that is the cnief comphiiat ; and it is more a complaint of the distribution of the duties than any inequality or unfairness in levying them. Can yon state generally what is the nature of the arrangement by which is determined the share of the duties to which Upper Canada is entitled?— I believe I can» because I had a good deal of conversation with a gentleman that was sent so decide the last arbitra- tion. Mr. Chipnum, of New Brunswick, showed me his papers. He bad been sent to settle the difference of opinion between Mr. Kichardson and Mr. Baby, the commission- ers appointed for Lower and Upper Canada, who, differing in opinion, Mr. Chipman was appointed by Government to oecide between them. I happenea to be at Montreal at the time they met, and after the decision had been given, Mr. Chipman showed me his papers, »nd the principle upon which he decided was, that the population of the two provinces was the fair standard of distribution. Do you believe that that principle has given satisfaction to the two provinces ? — I believe they both complained of it ; ana yet I could not imagine a more equitable mode of de- ' , ciding the question. ^ Does not Lower Canada consider that it leads to a serious diminution of her power ? — Lower Canada claimed originally the whole of the duties, and considered the claim of Upper Canada to any participation whatever to be unjust. Is the principle of t:ie relative number of the population agreed upon now for ever, aa that bj whiob the distribution i^ to be regulation r — No ; it was only griven as an award in one instance ; and I believe it is for four years. Has tiieie been any other adoption of that principle ?— This is the latest in- stance of it. Has it been pursued in any former award? — I do not know what the former principle was. Is not the criterion which was adopted, the relative proportion of the population of the two provinces, objected to as improper, iiith reference to the consumption of duti- able articles in the two provinces ? — It has been objected to upon that ground, ac.well "M upon several others. O D« \3 Y '1 Mt f M J. i'ii C f 106 MINUTES OF EVIDENXE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE m '\h\fk Ut a AtCUti vray. i'll 9 June IMS. H Do you not believe, that even in t'at instance, the portion awarded to Upper Canada was objected to in Lower Canada, as being too great with reference to their consump. tion ? — It >va8 so objected to. Do you think it probable tliat the two provinces will be content witli this mode of ad- justing their difficulties with respect to the duties, as apermaneut arrangement ? — I should think the province of Upper Canada will never be content >vit!i0ut a port of cutry for iu foreign commerce. At the same time you cannot suggest any mode in tvhich the difficulties could be better adjusted? — As a principle of distributiou of duties between two iudepeudent Legisla- tures, I cannot. Do you not consider that aH difficulties would disappear under a union of the colo- nies ?— I do not know that; many difficulties would disappear, t!:o8e with respect to the distribution of the duties would certainly disappear, but many difficulties would be created. " In what respects would it create difficulties ?•— Difficulties would be created by the temper it would excite in the French party, who would thinly it was intended to extin- ture to try wl'ich should get the upper hand, t' at I should think the union a duugeroug measure, without some provision for a certain number of years to regulate both th« revenue and the appropriation, which in Lower Canada have been t e chief sources of discord ; so as to allow t'"e parties to mix a little together bcfidcrcd whether it would be possible to adopt any thing of t'-e kind, with reference to the two provinces of Canada, leaving the local affairs to be regulated by the local Legislatures, and having somethinj^ in the nature of a Congress? — There haa been a sug;;cstion of a general Congress of all the North American provinces, it would be attended with considerable diflBciilty. Witliout applying the answer to the provinces of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, can you 8i> what "ould be its effect with, reference to the provinces of Upper and Low^r Canatla ?— I think it would be attended with all the difficulties of a legislative union, and would be unproductive of some its advantages. Would it not enable t'.iC Lower Canadians to preserve those interest^ which they think in danger, in connection with their church and tieir French law, and might not the power of ,iuch united assembly be applied only to those matters which related to t)>e two provinces in common, such as their mutual defence, and the taxation, and appropriation of tl)e reve- inue for public and general objects ?— It migltt certaiuly ; it would bo rather a cumlrous ma- chinery, but it m'ght be established. Would t -at obviate an _v of the evils that are apprehended from the union ? — To a cer- tain extent it would ; but then I do not know how far it would relieve tlie English popula- tion of Lower Canada from th? prevalence of tliose French laws of which they complain. Might not a system of representation be adopted with reference to the English popula- tion of Lower Canada, by which the Assembly of Lower Canada might be remodelled, so as toapply bot!) to tiie townships and to the seigneuries, by chaffing the right of representa- tion ? — The right of representation might be altered by a different distribution of the ter- ritory as to counties, but so long as the French Legislature possessed t' e control of the navi«ration of the Saint Lawrence, which the j still would, I think the difficulties viould still .remain. . The question supposed that all the regulation of that line of water commimication which ought to be common to both proviiices should be regulated only by the combined Assem- bly ?— That might remove the difficulty as to the general regulations of commercial im- provement. Would it be possible to adopt a double system of duties on the Saint Lawrence, that w to say, one for the Lower Province and another for t'>e Upper Province, without givii^ rise to smuggling ? — I think it would give rise to difficulties of various descriptions; it would be yery difficult to carry into effect ( and if the duty was sufficient to maite smug* fling an object, it-would be unlimited. Supposing that the duties to be collected on tlie Saint Lanrence are to be uniforn^, and that . i- El F '1 It M i ' . :l^ iii!i^ vrajf. 8 Juof 1888. H 108 MINUTES OF EVIDBNCB BEFOHB SELECT COMMITTEE that they are to be distributed according to some mode between the two province*, would J/r. a. li*Gilli- tbnee not necewarily be an un&imes« in the distribution ? — There must be some suprenw '^■'- authority to regulate the distribution, and to judge what the general benefit would requin I to be most advantageously expended in one part and in another. A general roprescuutioa of the people would prolwbly oe the bMt means of aacertaining that point. Has the Legishitive Assembly of Upper Canada been iucreaaed in number since the Act of 1791 ?— Yes, they have been increased about threefold, Do ) ou know according to what rule they have been increased P — I do not exactly, but I believe when a new county is laid out, as soon as it attains a certain population it is entitled to send one member, and when it gets sp niauy more it is entitled to send two. In your opinion, is the system or representation which is founded ^ upon the ioint prind. pie of population and territory, better adapted to a state in the condition of the Canada, than one wliich has reference to population only ? — I should tliink, decidedly, t!.e bat principle is combining population and' territory. That is to say, to parcel out a certain portion of laqd, and^hen its inhabitants amount to such a number, to give it a representative, and not to increase its representatives an tin population increases ? — This country is comparatively in its infancy. Looking to whit Its population may be, I would say that a cerUip extent of territorv, ppssessing acertitiii number of inhabitants, much less than its neigbouring territory of equal extent, shooU •till have an equal weight in the representation. Are there any compuunts in Upper Canada upon the subject of the representation ?- I believe not. Are there any complaints in Upper Canada with respept tq the constitution of the U- gislative Council ?— Those who are opposed to the measures of Government complain of the Legislative Council, who generally have sided with the Governor when there has ben any question in difference between them, but I have not heard of any complaint of tb* composition of the opuncil; where there are parties, however, there will always be con. plaints. How is the Legislative Council composed ? — Of per^ns reoomioended by the Govemw, fmd -'ppointed by the King's mandamus, Are they appointed for ufe ? — They are. Are they mostQf them persons holding offices uudef the Government ? — Many oftbea •re. Are not a great majority of the persons composing th^ Legislative Council person holding offices during the pleasure or Govenuneut i*— rl do not know tliat the majority vt, but I believe that many oi them are, Is there a very marked distinctpess of feeling, and a consciousness of conflicting intereiti between the inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada? — The general mass of iuhabitanh have not much communication witli each other; I can only jud^e of their feelings bv tiw opinions of their leading representatives in the House of Assembly. The people of Upper Canada are of a more active and migratory race, and they sometimes visit Xower Caoaoti but the Lower Canadians seldom leave their own country. Is it not generally understood that jealousies and animosities have prevailed more b«< tween the two provmces ? — ^They have prevailed more between the English and French jhh I pulation in Lower Canada than between the two provinces, With regard to the distribution of the duties, naye not jealousiesprevailed between tbi Legislative AMemblies of the two provinces ?— *There have, certainly. ^ Do yon know any instance in which important improvements, witli respect to navigk tionand roads between the two provinces, nave been neglected m>m the want of concu^ rence in the two Legislatures r— I do not know the particulars of the manner in which they have been neglected, but that they have been neglected is obvious to every man wlw travels through the cbuntry. Dp you not believe that neglect to hav^ proceeded from the want of concurrence oi the part of the colonial L^slatures ? — I do. Do you understand that the transit duties are now applied to wheat ftom the north-«» tern States passing through Canada ?— Yes, on wheat from the United States, if imported Is not the importing merchant allowed to bond for export ? — I am not aware that he is. }Ia8 not a r^gulatipn beenniade to that effect withiu two years ? — I believethat by thti reguilatios ill .'r all the circum<«tap<> ces of the United States apd or Cfinad(i, the.v consider that they are better situated fof commerce than the inhabitiints of the United States ? — I sliould think not. Do they not consider that the St. Lawrence is a better navigation for the purpose of in- tercourse with Europe than the Erie Canal (iffords ? — For their own partic^lar positioi) it is the best access they h{(ve, and yet it happeqs that New- York is as good a market as any that is open to them. I am not aware that they thin|c the) have any particular advuii-t tagesover the people in the neighbouring coiintry, except that they pav less taxes ; they pay no taxes in fact, unless for purposes of local improvement, and the duties on importa- tion from tl]e United Kingdom are very moderate, so that t'ey have the advantage of hav- ing all articles of import, unless from the United States, at a small duty. Do you not consider that the St. La^^renceisa better exit from the lakes to the sea than any 'that can be afforded through the medium of New York ? — ^foflt undoubtedly ; but that has been subject to l^slative restrictions which have partly destroyed its value. Will not the facilit) afforded by the St. Lawrence be greatly lucre^ed by the applicatioq of steam ?— 'It lias been, and it will bo still further, Will not the canals that ^e now forming render it a 'much superior ship communication to any that caq be afforded through the United States 2 — There is nq ship commuuicatioii -^ . by canals through the United States, and the Welland Canal i? the only ship canal in Car nada. Are you not aware that ip the Erie CwmI of New Yorlc tliere is but four feet and a half of water ?«-I am. Do you know tlie ai^e of the shipmng that will pass thrptigli the canals that are intended to connect the lakes in Canada ? — On the Rideau Canal and the La Chine Canal I believe the dimequons of the locks are adapted for vessels drawing about five feet water, and I think 100 feet length, and 20 feet beam, and thatthe dimensu>n8 are similar in the Grenvillo Canal at the Rapids of the Ottawa. Do not you know that there is an ordor to enlarge those locks ? — I do not know that there is an order to enlarge them ; and to enlarge those pf tlie La Chine Canal, which are already built, would be to rebuild them. Do not you considertbat any communication by shipping will alyira} s have a great advan^ tage over a communication by boats ? — Undoubtedl) . Do not } ou consider that this will afford very incre^ed advantages for the export of the produce of the borders of the lakes ?— I think not, because I think the St. Lawrence will always preserve its advantage over the line of canal from Lake Ontario, to the Ottawa. I think, for tli9 purposes of export, the river will always be tiie channel of navigation. Do not } ou consider that all those advantages furnish a motive to the inhabitants of the British colonies with reference to the ouestiop of fidelity and attachment to the English connection ? — I have beenaccustomeo to consider thatthe population of our colonies ne-^ ver entertained any question upon the subject ; they were attached to their country and their property, and they never entertained a doubt of the comparative advantages which them* selves or their neighbours might possess. "Do not vou consider that the sources of dissatisfaction among the coIoniesgeneraUy arise firom regiiuitions with r^^ard to commerce and communication, and that alfthe objections of that und may be easily got over by Qreat Britain f — There have been m»oy causes jpf ©'5«»rtioA r 1^1 i ,1 li' no MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECt COMMITTEE ifr S. P. M'GUli- ohjlnvtion which I think niifflit have been got over by boing better understood and more «. *'''''y* tended to t'nn tliey have l)(>cn ; HOinn uli^ht ram 3 J una 182S. raimes of complaint hare been alluived to nf. '.^rnvatc thn ferlin^s ofpcrNuns t icre,>r'. en perhaps a little timely attention might bllver^| movoti them. But you consider t'lat for all importAnt purpo!ie8 t'lo people of Upper Canada are ilrnilj I attiiclu'd to the BritiHh connection ? — I believe bo ; I believe they huvo very few taiiwilil* gricvanccH to complain of. I have heard several camies of {grievance ; one cause is the clcrich nave excited , dissatisfaction ; one I is the Act euabliag two magistrates to send any person that tliey consider seditious out of t'te country. I believe t'le only individual that was ever sent out of the country was )lr, | Robert (icurlay ; this is rat'ier a hypotlietical grievance than a real one. Although you consider it a hypoCieticul grievance t* at a man may be sent out of Uppn I Canada at tiie discretion of the (tovornor, do you conceive that the majority of tlio popu- lation of that province do consider that as a hypotlietical grievlbce or as a real grievance? It las been t e subjectof great dissatisfaction in t!ie province, and because it has boen i subject of dissatisfaction I tl.ink it an impolitic thing to persist in preventing its aliolitioo. You say t' at t':e clcrgi' reserves take away no man's pro])erty ; do you think thoy dt not diminish the value of property in t' at country ? — They I ave diminished the vahie A property situated beyond them, but t!ie difficulty will be removed by disposing of thpm. j Have they not produced a great deal of irritation in t e province ? — The distribution of t!icm has produced irritation net »een the parties claiming a participation in their product, and their existence in that state in which tney have hitherto remained I. as prevented in. provement ; but I would distinguish this from actual personal grievance or oppressioi operating upon an individual. Is t' e mode in which the construction of roads is provided for in Upper Canada liaUtl to any objection ? — I am not aware t' at it is ; it is, to tlie best of my knowledge, by Iott-' ing local rates upon tlie proprietors of land. In w!'at manner is the line of each road determined ? — I do not exactly know ; I b^| lieve it is by certain commissioners, appointed by Government. Some complaints I k' on have existed both in Lower and Upper Canada, from the circumstance of those pcrsou V ho had the laying out of t'^e lines ot new road having expended most of the money upoi parts of tl)e road that tended to improve their own property. Do you not consider upon that point, t at great advantage would be dorived from t't I emplotmentof government engineers in laying out t'lose main lines of communicatios wit I a view to the general benefit of t!ie country? — Undoubtedly -I do so consider Would it not be better to adopt the system of managoracut pursued in t e United Statei, I and that each district siiould elect its o^^ n surveyors ? — Yes, that might be a gdod plan io some respcrcts, but t'lero might be some districts in wliich particular parts of a roaanii;;lit be more expensive than others, and therefore perhaps, in tiiat view, a general systea might be beneficial for the wbol« country together. OK THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. lit »r oppresiiiail Jovi», 5^. die Junii, 1828. John Neilaon, Esq. again called in ; and examined. HAVE you anv explanations that you «i»h to offer with reference to any part of the cvt, drnce you liave already i^iven? — I wiali to submit a statement of tlie compoHitiou of the Executive Council, wliic 1 1 cnuiidnr ai unavoidably connected with the composition ufthe Lcj^iMlative Council. T<)is U the list of the Executive Council for 1827 : Jouat' an Sowrll, Ructtkcr of the Leirislative (Council, chief Justice of the province and of the district of (Juc» Kiquirr. I ii|)<>akcr of the Legislati bee, and preNident of the Court of Appeals . |be<^; John Ricliardson, merchant; James Kerrgudge, K. D. Quel "•crccval, collector ot the Customs; W'i # June 18S8. province and of the district of Qi the Rot. C.J. Stewart, lord hi^liop of Que^ L'hcr, and oithe Court I of Vice-Admiralty; M. H. Perceval, collector of the Customs; Willuim Smith, cJt>rk of [the Lcfisiative Council ; John Hale, acting receiver-gcueral ; C. E. ('. Pelery, a^sistunt Irlerk of the Legislative Council ; Jo2iu Stewart, sole commissioner of the Jesuits estntes ; JA. W. Cochran, Oovernor's secretary.law clerk of t! e Legislative Council, clerk of tho I Prerogative Court, and auditor of Laud Patents ; Jumes ntuart, attoniey -general. Out lof these seven of them are legislative counse lors. Three of them are deilis of the Legis- llative Council, and one is attorney general. Of tlie whole number t!.ere is one ti.at is u uh-. Itive of Lower Canada. What are t le rest ?— Theyaro from different parts of t!io King's dominions ; tliogroat- |e«t proportion of them are natives of otl-er colonies, and of ti e late colonics. Ti is \^ Ithesole body in tl e country w! ich has any check over tho expenditure. They are dele- ■gated by the Treasury to exercise the powers of the Treasury, and they report to the Trea- Ibiiry, and upon their reports the governors are finally discharged ; X\\et[ in fact audit the ac^ Icounts. Do you consider that to be a suflBcient check ?-:-No, it is no c' eck at all. What would \ on propose to substitute ? — The matter ought to be regulated by a law. Ilhere liave been bills introduced into the House of Assembly for the purpose of regulating Ihat. Are they dismissable at pleasure ? — TI.e whole of them are dismissable at pletisure. Do^ the Executive Council exercise any responsible authority ? — No, it has been held here that they are not responsible. Have t'ey, in fact, any ant! ority recognized by the vo"stitution ? — No furt'.er IthaD that there v as an instruction from home whicli required all ia^vs raising moi.ey in tlic sloniea to contain a clause providing that the money should be accounted for to llis Ma- jesty through the Lords of the Treasury, they may be considered as acting for the Lords of ihe Treasury under t:>08e laws. Are they, in point of fact, recognized in any other way than as a council, which t' o. jovernor'may ormay not consult, according to his pleasure? — They certainl> are to. Duly efficient executive body in the Government; I do not know in what way tf.e Home' government recognizes them ; I do not know that they are recognized by any hiw of tiio. |;oIouy, fiather than as I have stated.. Is the Governor obliged to consult them, or to follow t!:eir advice when given ? — I ap< Itrehend not. When were they first appointed ?' — Immediately after the conquest of the colony ; they ^re, in fact, a substitute for the King'sPrivy Council here. Are their functions inany way defined ?— Not by any law that I am aware of; of course hey act under the King's instructions. Have they s^Wies ? — They have 100/ each, as executive counsellors ; but they all hold ^thcr situations, as I have mentioned. How does it appear that they act at all ; are their names signed to any public docu- bents ?— All warrants for the payment of money are countersigned by their cl^rk. Have any of them seats in the Assembly ? — Not at present ; tltero were lome of them for- berlyt»inthad J butnow-ther«arenon«. , T^er* V f < . il I. ' i m US MI!d, it «vM«ni«r« cltrkral «rrortno«« »ordiib«Hiif uitfd. I stated that only one regUtr> bill had heeo brought into the Uuiuc of AMembl«, t^-.nt mi^ht Uave it to be undervluod tliat I did not tliink of the one t' at wm introdured from tlie CounoU. There wna only one broiij^lit iu by t'le IIoum of Asenibly, but V^vrt was one lentdowii from tire Council, which wm referred to a coiumittee; it was within a fort ui|f lit of the oloecof tiie Mtuann when it waa brought down, and there wan no report opou theaubject. At the time of my former exauiaatioo I did not recoileot t le fate of the road bill, which I stated «a« avnt donn from the Council. It waa aent don n near the cloM of the aeuion. It wan conducted by the gentlemen who iiaually conducted the Mrernoieat btuilMM iu the Houae, and referred to a committee ; and he aotuall) made a ftwtrt tl«r Canada, in reeix'ut of the right of those people to vote, ibouldberainoted ; and the reiaoval of those doubta flan only be «»ff«uted by the Legisla- te rftbis country. ' you a'.lude to the Alien Bill ? — Yvs, there ought to be a bill jMwaed iu farour of t^^ose people similar to that which «i.|i» passed for Upper Canada, otkerwtao tliey would not hare • wr representation under any circumatancca; the raomenttliey raiue to vote tlieir votes would beque8tioned,and they would be deprived of iheirright of Totiiig;iu fact they would not be re- Kientsd. Thev hare elected oRO member generally heretofore ; the menUter for Bedford has mselely oftliisir election, because they formed a mfyoritt of that county ; but latterly tl>ey tiara elected a Caj)adian gentleman. Colonel de Rouville. In my former eximiination I ««aa Biked what ^^as the number of English members now in tho Ilouse ; X conla not state vi ith ipy certainty without referring to a list. I have since referred to a lut, and I find that those tliat are c^lcd Englia'i members iq the House at Drcsent. amount to height ; there were «t«vca in the preceding- House, but three of them lost their electiojsa ; four out of ttia «ght a>ra nativog of Lowar Cana4n, two of ScotUnd, one of Upper Canada, and one of Nora Scoitia ; four of them are oppnoaed to the Coloixial Administration, and four of them are i» iMi favour. With, regj^rd to thaarrani^ment of the civil list, reflpecting which there waa i| (ytCStionMM: to ma» the sta^amaata I made on that subject of course can only be expected to be realized, provided the complainta wliich arc brought forward on the part of the AsseoH Wy and tlie people were removaov or in a probabk tnun of being removed; far ona of the BTsat obiiectioiMi is. tliaf a^ perrtap^pt supply would only ensure permanent grievaneea } ^«u>44bftiicce«sary thevthai^ the gri^vantces should he removed at the tkaatbat a perota* Dent supply was granted. la pomt qibct^ sinca tba year 1^19, wifc'i the e«c«ptioQ of the yaars 18(23 and 188S, has i|tt,the OoM»ra\(\ orof.tM) t ■ I m ' m ^1 •if' fMi ,JbA» Nniitm, £M|(iii*. Hi MtNUTES OF EVIDE!?rE BEFORE SELEC**! COHJMITTEE When Mr, Caldwell's account* ^ver«* d<>Hv«rod in were they audited up to the laat mtK »nt? — No, we could trace no uoquitUii iron) the Treasiirj' subscquentl.v to 1814: t'>eri meiit had been some balances Htated up to IB19, but no a(*f[uittal. He failed in 1 623, and the ao« S June, 18SH. counts were before us in 1824. There was a m<>titu);:;;e from t^ie OoTernor on tie subject, by which it appeared tliat there had been no r«>g-ularity • the warmnta had not eveu been re< gularly issued to authorize paymente. What sum of money had been advanced withoiit left-al warrants ?— I do pot know what may be (jonsidered as le^ral M-arrants ; I conceive that, according to the 14th of tlx King, t' ere ought to be warrants from the TreasHrj' here. The other warrants considerdi to be legal, are warrants signed bv the Governor, and c^untersignd by the clerk of th» ('ouniiil ( l»ut, independently'of all those papneiits, there have been advances upon whatar» called letters of credit. At the time the receiver^eneral failed there was to the amonat of 1I6,0<)U/. of them; and since t'lat time they have introduced anew mode, which v» consider worse still than the former, that is what they call 'accountable warrants.' In truths the receiver-Lrencral is discharged against the Treasury, and the receiver^eneral runs leq risk than he did before ; that is the result of it. But the money of the province goes out without any sufficient accountability, or without the expenses having been supported br vouchors, and undergoing even the examination of the Council. Did not the UoiiNe of i^ssombly, in the year 1825, pass a resolution, declaring Lon) DiiMiOusie resppneiblc fur that money so raised ?t— They I ave patmed a great many resolu. t^'ons ; } believe they never did dec'aro Loi>d I alhouMe personally responsible, but ther declared that they would hold respoiuiblo every person cpucerncd in issuing the money of the province without the authority of law. Did not they, at the same time, pass certain resolutions that Itord Dalhofisie had so ex« pendedt e money ? — Yes, the resolutions «'hic>) I gave iu the other day, I believe, are to that effect ; the resolutions in 1824, On what authorit*. is it stated, in the petition presented to the House of Commons, that Mr. Caldwell was maintained in the exercise of his fnmitions, as receiver-general, long after his malversation was publicly known and a(;knowledged V — That is in the Montreal peti« tion. The fact is, that he was so retained during some time. How do you know the fact '^ — It is upon t e journals of the Assembly ; when the recei« ver-general failed, his accounts were Liid before the House of Assfimbly, and there waa i committee appointed, and an examikiation into the whoje matter. There came out i number of documents, some of wiiich established the hat that his deficiency was known for a considerable time before he was suspended ) in truth I believe it did not extend to k greater time tlian was necessary to send a person to England, and come Imck again ; then was a person deputed by L|Ord Dall>ousie and the receiver-general, namely, the receiver-ge> persti's bt^itherri^-law, IVIr. Davidson. Did the province susfain any additional loss by his continuing during that time ?— It ii probable there would be some loss, because there would be some revenue coming in, and it was a dnngerona thing that the revenue should be coming mto the hands of a person wha must have been so hard pressed as Mr. Caldwell wa^ at that time. Was the office practicall v given into tlie charge of any other person ? — Yes ; it *«, aubscquently, in August; but the Journals oft e House of Asacmbl.. of 1824 will show tlie w ole of the facts. What steps werp taken to secure the public from additional loss as soon as the malver* Mtion and insolvency of Mr. Caldwell were known ? — There were no steps ^at I know of tliat were taken ; I happened to be in this country at t at time, and I jupeak merely from the knowledge I have of the proceedings ip 1824 ; I believe that shortly after the pro* rogation of the Legislature in 1823;it was found that there was qot lUQneyiq the chest to ni(^ the appropriations of the Legislature, then there was a long porrespondcnce bet^« een Mr.. Caldwell and the Governor, and I believli then it was detcrpiined to send somebody home; tliis must have been in April, and } think that in the month of Jul^ or August follow* iug titere were two persons appointed to manage t ? business pro tempore. Are >ou not aware that Mr. Caldwell pleaded at in some degree a justification for tlutt defalcation, that th« AKtmbly refuted him any salarj , and that he was compelled therefoif i^m r ON fkE CIVIL GOVERNMEJfT Q¥ CANADA Hi therefore to iqake ui0 of this money m a remuneration for hia serTiceft ?- he did not complain in that way; but I know tot cetuh* that he applied ■No. j.»^^«^« John A-Hbw. in 18Uforan Eiquire. increased gahiry. . . „ ^ ' — ^— — ^ Was that fitmtfcd to I im ? - rfo. « June, IM«. Was It not understood that he ^m td make use 6( thai rhoney ? — No, surely not ; if \%. Had beed td understood t e whole province would hare been in an uproar, and I myself would never have applied to him for bills of exc ange, for I would never have trusted Uim if I had known that he would Ui^e a sixpence of the public money without authority. What was his salary ?—^HiH salary nas fixed by t've Government here at a yearlv sum, I think, soon after t' e passin? of the Uth of the King, 400/; an^ lOO/. for a clerk ; but there was a recoramei'datiod of Sir George Prevosi to allow him a salary ; they could not proceed at aH without a recommendation frcfiii the Governor, and the moment t ey bad that recommendation thcv intended that there «h(iuld be Horanthing clone to regulate th« chest ; t'e mattoir was not finished thsit s^ssiCn, and tile next session there was no recom- mendation, arid it never caine before the Assembly agaiii ; tiiere lro'bably thos^ riimdun were in som« itieasure founded upon t e cii'cura.otauce of ad applictttton for an increased saUry- Does the receiver-general keep'the ni6ney in his oii'n.hands. Or does he deposit it ill any bank ? —The whole of the tttonies received for tlie King in Lower Canada, whether by Britislf statutes oi* by pfovincial statutes, l-ave be'efi pUt mtb the hands.of the receivei* general, ttnd htf tas kept t'era all iil ' is own house; t dpeak now of Mr. Caldwell} e money absolutely add entirely in Wis cilstody ?— It was, in the tioie df Colonel Caldwell. Can you state what would be the largeiit ambiiht th^t in the ofdinary cqtiiie of th« • 1.^1 v.- ^1 •.^^..iJ 1-^ !_ U" t J. Q rrii- ; -^ •_ _L Si: l._l I a part comes in principally in October. Now trie warrants for payra^nffl used to be ii< nied on the 1st of May iind l.e l^t bf Novembei-, so tHat it naturally would take the i&oney out of the receiver's nftnds very hipidly when t' (> funds are IdW. Since the failure df the recei^er-gctieral, I 8np|ifoae there ntfver boUld be & great siiitl in his hands, perhap* 80,000/. 30,000/. or 40,000/. , What was the acfhal loss liicurred by thS ihs6lten(cy of Mr; Caldwell ? — The actujil deficiency of cash was 96,000/. stei'ling; but besides i at, there ivas 116,000/. of money advanced upou letters of credit, for which Mr. Caldwell was not dischaived. Tae receiter general wv, resp By whom are tTie' accounts of the receiver-general audited ? — In the first iutanee, 6j (lie executitel eonncil of the province, then they are given to the Governor, who trans* ttits theid to the Treasury ; and we could trace no acquittal subsequent to> 1814 ; so that In reality the Governor, the council of the province and th^ receivertim-TES UJT JEV4DENCB £EI?ORB S&IJKCT COMMITTEB John ffeiliou, ^^ ^jj^ acounts required to be audited penodieall^ ?<->Yes, by the Kiag't instnMtioia &quire. ' to the Gorernor they ought to be audited io the colony eveiy six months, and tnuu> ^- iA._ ^mittid to the Treasury here. 5 June, 1828. Is the Governor to require the accounts to be audited once in six months ? — Yes, the iaatructiona hare i^eea very precise on the subject that the Governor should attend to the proper expenditure of the public monies ^nd account, and the receiver-geiienJ by hii commission is required to give in a statement. By whom is the receiver-general appointed ? — Appointed by the King, not as actiw in the colony, but as acting here, bv the Lords of the Treasury in Ceiot. In what way do you think that tne office of treasurer would be rendered most securt and the duties of it best performed ? — The office ought to be regulated by law, so that no disbursements ought to be made unless it be in a certain form, and regular accounti Of the receipts and payments with the vouchers ought to be laid before the Legislators erery year, so that the Le^slature and the Public may see the true state of its affiuFs. "VHiat measures have been adopted to prevent a recurrence of the inconvenience so^ fered by the Public in consequence of the iasolvency of the receiver^eneral ? — The A^ sembly passed a bill on the Subject, which it sent to the Council, but the Council rejected the bul; nothing has ever been communicated to the Assembly since the failure of Mr. Caldwell, but thavc iinderstood, in private conversation, that instructions have oome out providiqg a remedy. I never saw them> nor do I know the nature of them further than that there was some kind of precaution to be taken that the money could not go out ta the same way as it had gone out in Mr. Caldwell's time ; but so long as the co» lony, which furnishes tlie money, has no check, there will always be mischief; there mi^it be a dozen keys and a dozen locks, and yet they miglit ail agree ; it is only those that pay the money that are an elEcient check. In what way do you think that that check ought to be exercised ? — There ought to be | law regtiHting the receipts and disbiu-scments of the receiver-general's office, and the ac- count ougirt to be regfiuarly laid before the Legislature every year, so Uiatthey niay see the true state of the case. At present the accounta laid before the Legislature are made up from the receiver-generaTs statements ; but they are not the recmver-^eneral's state- ments. There are accounts framed in the Executive Council Office, -which are laid be? fore the Legislature ; but th^y are not the real accounts of the chest ; those are what we «*nt to see. How do th(^ differ from the accounts of the. chesi ?rrWe cannot tell, because we hare no regiUar account of the chest ; such va account as they please of the state of our affian they send to us. yon have an account purporting tfi be & general account ; but you cannot tell whether it is a true one f — We cannot tell wliet'.er it is a true- oncy because wc do not see the ai- count of the officer that makes the payments'. Rqw do yott propose to ccmed^r tu^ hy law ? — 1!hcre was pne law passed* which is Br milar to that of Jamaica. Is not thero an account given in, si^ed by soxfiQ. responsible officer ? — |t Is signed % somebody; l^t there is no responsibility. Wiio IS it signeii} by ? — It is signed sometimes by the inspector-general of acconnti, and sometimes Giy tlie audi^r-general of accounts ; th^y are^ merely preparatory acceuntr Ants to the Executive Council, and tiie Exeputive Council is not riesponsible. Tu«n you h^ive theic aifthority 6>r saying, that tlus ascouut is conrect V— Wis have tkeir authority, certainly. . liy vi^hom is the account transinittetr to the Assembly- ?-r- It is transmitted by aisesr sagjei frt)m the Governor, saying that he lays that account before the Assembj^. ijas not tl^e colony to coinmili ^P6ople go into t^e ctrafti of iustice'tovecover money that is dae to tbem. there is jndgipent given, the sheriff 4x0r cutes that judgment, levies the money, and the money reuidnB in his hands till itcaab^ distributed by jndginentof the court, to each person witat iM^oajrs to him. It of cb^frse Kiqains in his hands till the final judgment and distribution, which is frequently deliiyed for a considerable time ; and it is out of thoise monies that the defalcation tooK place. Are sberijftk sales very common ? — They have been very co6imon. What is the caase of their being so common ? — They b^ve become very comition sinck ' the close of the last war, because the ooutttry became poor ; real property particnlarj» (Baiinished in value ; those that had claims upon it insisted upon pajrment, and sued, sod then it was seised by the sheriff and sold. Has that been resorted to as the securest mode of conveyance in con^aUence of tb% defect of the law ?— It has in several instances ; the Legislatm'e passed a bill providiii|[ ^ for voluntary sheriff's sales, Tiiot is a proceeding sometiiing like a decret voder ttib French law; the parties come into court and say that they wish to have the benefit of a deeret; under this proceeding there is public notice to all the world that such property k to bis sold, so ttiat every one ttuty come forwted and put in his chnm ; then the salb takes place, and the whole is under the infection of the court to see that every one get| kis due; thei^ evety one baykig got bia due, the title to the property is nuore secure tbah it wwdd otherwise be. - . Then a lanre portion of pubKo propiHiy has fallen ul^def sheriffs sales on aCcdnnt ne since the law, abd I believe before tliat latii' it was done ; people wished to have a sale in virtue of judnnent, so that there might bi) B{> contest thereafter ; but those sales uo not bar certniR dums, I have nnderstodd, now. Dp they bar a prior mortgage upon the estate ?r— Yes, all mortgages except rights of l&inorsand persotis abseat ; perspns in fact that caunot come forward and answer for themselves, .. , Then it is not a secure title againat them ?— It is not a secure title against pen^Mif that have it not in their power to exereistf their right of coming forwai'd, they cannot b^ dejmved, that is universally so understood. You stated that tl^e maqagement of public monies for purposes of internal- improwi meat was jbetterin the United States than in Canada, can you meiition any instances jrhiqh authoriie yoi| in making that stntement ^f— I conceive that the same amount of m0^ pey gpjBs further there ^han «ith us, and t^is I ascribe to hotter managen^ent and greater responsibility; I will staite an instuiee: Jbe Iia C^ne canal cost about h^ a million of dollars; it was nine miles in fztent; The New York catud eo«t about eig^t a^od of dollars, that is sixteva time* aa'muofc, and it ia Seo o^esin exttfnt^ and upon th« yfrhcHk, it syllable to as great expenses) if Mt greater, than the La Obiim cftnaH, on tecount of we bomber of tooka: ^4 th«\gr«at elevation of tbe Cbwbtry to can^ tlie camri ovtr, •it W( m^ )» « rtoMvlMMe diff«ret«e i^gwMt iwiii the remit of the ^enditurt», I ■ ■n r ■'■ I &:. i '! < i' 111 118 MIKUTES cA» EVIDENCE BEFOIIE SELECT COMMITTEE ^fi iVWteon "^^ ^^"^ ^^ 7^^ attribute that difference ? — I attnbute it to not auflKcient acconntabili. boqulrt. ' ty in our expenditure. ^ ■ ^ — _^ Wan it a government work 'f — Yes, it ii not well lot>l{ed after; when any gentlenuii I June issiS. gets work done vithout looking after it, it vrill not be done half 80 well, nor nearly at to moderate a rate. Our canal gives hardly any revenue ; theif canal gives a very great re- ', . • venue ; there is another proof of thef management : I shduld say, generally, they mana^ their aiKiirs better than we do. . Is the La Chine canal not used ? — It is used, bdt it gvr^ iretf little revenue. I ds Dot suppose that it gives^ more than between 2,000/. ifnd 3,000/; a year. It is stated in th^ petitfon thtct a great many militia officers have been dismissed withoDt just' cause '("—"There have been a great number of disotiissions, and they allege that it h« ueen without sufficient reason or just cause. What inpublic opinion is believed to be the reason thaf those ihilitlA officers were dii- iinssed ?r^The almost universi^ opinion latterly is, that it is owing to their taking a par) in sending coninlaints to England. What grinds are there for e'ntertafiiirig that opinion ? — There is no doubt that several of them were present at the meetings at which the petitions were adopted, and I belier* that several ot them presided at those meetings/ Was anv motive assigned for their .dismission b? fhto G^overiMlr? — ^^Tes^ « very bad motive ; having become active instruments of a party hostile'to His Majesty 's Ootenim«nt Were they dismissed by a general order ? — They were dismissed by a general order; there bad been about 200 dismissals within the last 18 months, either dismissals, or put* 4ing on the shelf in another wa» ; there has been a general doing and undoing of the woole militia. The general order for the last dismissions is as follows : — it is dated, " Office of the Adjutant-General of Militia, Quebec, February 2l8t, 1828. General Order of Militia. The Governor and Commander-in-Chief has seen with regret that several officers coon manding battalions of militia, forgetting their duty to set an exaitfple of subordinatioo and respect for authority to those placed under t leir command, have shown themselrei the active a^ents|of a party hostile to His Majesty's Government ; stte*) conituct tendio} to create discontent in the oennttry, and to bring the executive Oovertament into con* tempt among the people, cannot be permitted to pass without notice ; his Sxoellencj, therefore,, in virtue of the power vested in hhn by His Maje^y, sigmfiA Co the under^ mentioncfd officers that His Mi^esty ha» no fiirtliet occasion for their 8ervice8-»3d batf talion of Buckinghamshire. Lieut^ Colonel Franpofs Legendrer; 1st battalion of Bedford, R. Hertel de Rouville ; 3d battalion of the county of St. Maurice, A. Poidin de Conri nj.; IstbatbUioin of Kent, H. Bouchef de Labniere; 2d battalion of Huntiligdon, Ma- jor M. Raymond. The Goveraftt-hi-Chief thinks it not less his piifolfc duty tnan an act of justice to the loyal militia of the province, to put them on their guard against bein} misTed by the arts and misrepresentations of ill-disposed persons, to entfettain unfounded •dspicions of the views and acts of Government, or to swerve from that respect for iti autnoritv, and that spirit of obedience for the laws which btecometi dutifuf and loyal sub jects. By order of his Exoelleney the GovernornnxChief. (signed) « F. Vassal de Monvhsl, Adj. Gen. M. F." ■■'■'• • • Were those officers embodied with their corps at that time ; were they out on duty 7 .^-Every man in Canada from ^S* to 60 years of age is a Arilitia niian, and no man is ein< ' i; bodied unless he be drawn from thie militia ; they are all militia men and liable to mil^' ' ' tia duty, although they are living upon their o<«n farms; but thei*e is* no embodied mi- Ktift no«'.- Do* tbey meet at aU fei^ tnuning ' and exercise ?>^TI)ey iVieet to hstve the roll called, •o as to keep then m existence ; witlr*this vie*, that when in virtue of a law it nu^ U rreeessa]^ to enbodv » portion of the nrlitia^ tbey may be ready. Are they supplied witb aron ?— 'No, tbey hate no arms. / Do they appear in uniform ?— Ko. * ;: Is this military power thus exercised over the militia, in point of fact; pomened if ~ \ the Governor, in nis military oq^acity, over every subject in Canada? — It w'ould be to; ' .bu^^. in point of fact, the great body of the people of Canada consider that he has no' '' / warrant upon that subject, because thej consider the law as in non-exiittonoo. ' ¥ Of9 THB CIVU OOVBRNMENT OF CANADA. fli^ What bw ? — The Governor and the Council luffered the Militia Lawa to expire in j^^^ NeUmnm 18i7, and tfaey revived then an old ordinance which waa passed in 1788 or 1789, oefore fitqulra. the existence of the present constitution, and it is under that ordinance that all the noise , ■ ^ ■ ^ has been made lately. The people are generally of opinion that the Uw is not in force ; 5 Juot, iBta, but in the first instance, with respect to' the mere parading to call the names over, no- . . body objected to it ; but when they came to exact more than was usual under the laws that had existed ever since the present constitution, the people began to clamour on the sub* ject, and those clamours have led, in some measure, to the present difficulties. There> are actually dismissed of the officers, hj general ord««, 6S, and there are a great number that are pufr on the shelf. Are any portion of the militia called oat during peace ? — No ; the system has been this : the whole population of Lower Canada have been declared to be liable to bear armf under certain oircumstauces, when there is a rebellion in the country, or when the coun- try is invaded ; for that purpose they are all enrolled ; there is a roll made of the whole male population from 18 to 60 }«ars of age, and there is a roll caUed every year to sea * tb"' ey are all in being, and there are provisions made that in time of war there should be . .^ing of the mihtia to form the embodied militia. During the last war we had >. atwut 7,000 or 8,000 of those men on the frontiers ; we used to draw every third unmar< ricd citizca to send them to t!ie frontiers. Are commissions appointed?— The officers all hold commissions ; there is a general or- ganization of the whole male population of tHe country as a militia ; that in time of peaca u nothing, but in time of war every man is liable to march. Do the officers receive any pay in time of peace ?— Nothing, it is all a burthen ; they lose their time, and they sometimes suffer a good deal of espense ; they spend money in ' « volunteer dressed companies. , About what is the whole number of the officers ?— The whole militia of the provinca consists of 66 battalions and seven companies ; the whole number of officers of the 66 battalions, including those that had the retraitest is 2,954. Including non-commissioned officers ? — No, commissioned officers only, including tha rank of ensign and upwards. Is not some claim made to property that formerly belonged to the Jesuits, and is it not urged on the part of the Assembly that the proceeds of it ought to be appropriated ' . under their direction to the maintenance of public education p-^There has been a claim urged against the Jesuits estates since the year 1793 by petition to the Legislature. Tha statement on the part of the people is, that the property belonging to the Jesuits was fiTsn tp them for the purpose of uie general education M the youth of the country, and that the Jesuits becoming extinct, the property ought to be applied for the purposes for which it was originally given; in fact, that the Jesuits under the vow of poverty could not bold property but for colleges ; and the result of the dissolution of the order of Je* suits in France has been that the property has been applied to the purposes for which it was originally granted, but under some other authority. Has the claim any other foundation than the general reasoning you have stated ?— There are several reports upon the subject by the House of Asseml^ly, and the £duc»> tion Report of 1884-, which is to be found in the journals.. What answer has the Government given to the claims that have been made by the As* lembl) npon the subject ?-«-There hiu been no answer on the subject. lu what way have the proceeds of the Jesuits estates been disposed of ?-i> We have no accoimt of them. Do vou know by whom the income arising from those estates is recaived ?— There waa formerly a commission and a treasurer, and the treasurer received the money, and he paid it into the hands of the receiver.general ; part of it, I understood, was lost with the receiver-general ; since that time there has been a new commission issuad, and a sole ma^ pa^er appointed, I do not know who receive* the money at present. Is there any other property in the province of Lower Canada which stands upon' tha same footing, and with respect to whicn similar claims are made to those whieh yoiv hava stated to exi«t as to the Jesuits estates ?— No. « Is there any other property held b> the Crown which formerly belonged to ecclesiastical bodies ?— Not that I know of. ^ WhM ■ 1- IV' ! II f ii 1 f. ^sm» V ^fil (T~ fcJuaa^ 1MB. I^iiik tbexe QM iuw« «»t«(bM»b«cl by tii« pubti^fqp^* oi^.^r^^dme, tba^ is. Ut «i}r. mb«(K cuMDtiy t» th« QOMvefk iq 170Q; juncn^ to tbat ti«« tb^re werii ^taHi«b«|e«t« iqadi, . . Ther* tKU the SMUOWy f«» MiMiom ^t <2«»be«, «h4 tbe l@enijyD|»nr< of tiif College of St, SMl]»io«» •! Afontma) t tbey pf eMrv44 th^ir ViiK««^* »q4 «Ui}^9ima t(ify «w« ongis^ «Mttd fiwr ocwbuBawtiqil ediic«tji(]M ^jU>p«* tbey «il7 «( Qii9b««i wbicb vmL foRmt d j «r«Pt«4 fiir forimn clerffyiDen, embraces tbe wbole range of tbe sciences, and so doeq taf JMj(Mi|rt«| seHup^ I&it« any dle^tea arwcn Mtb r«sp««t to tb« cbiin^>tqr of tbe synten o(redHe«tieQ to Imt oitabUsbetl ; U tbflr« »qy wi«h o« tbe pwt of tbp Cwd^iaM tbal i% ibouU be eDtir«b| ofaFr«iu;bMd ol» Catholic cbwriwtevi aa4 do tb« £;i#i9fe iab«bitAA]l« wUb t^ui ahottld be of a nore g>«qfe«al obaracter ?-^Tb«re bea becii « fii»d 4e»l of j«A]oufly on t^t Mat of-tha Ronan Cii^U«f on the su^ort o(ed«i«atioi»; thiM;» I lieU«v^ wtui QocMi«Mi4 Mjf iiistruetiona from tbit eonntiy wbaeAumt to tbe cwaqnei^^ WHea «wrc tbes« ipstniotioiis sent ?— Tbey i«uist h»ve b^eo «ent ibwtijr aftn tbe wh ^ttMt» but ti>e3F inve been reoeiNid freqvteqtl^ ft^nceb atBd it seenei t« tbe. Bevan Cotho. lies to be a kind of a system of ^roselytism, wbick of qourse iKPoduioed soaifl dfigfetoC tJkrm. There was an Aet prnwed iv ^10.1 iev the establishment) of M^eola; tbtgf wersto be endowed by tbe fUng aa wbools.ef i»y»Vfoiuidetioii» a»d tbey were to b« under th manail^ement of a corporation to be na|iva4 by tbe dtovernor ; that oozpocation nwi not pi* •led t)U iai7, s»i it hap(>eiied to con^iet mostly ^ tbose of out *eli|^o idonfti tbe hUkop «i the chucb of Ea^^buid and. tb« clergy ol the o4^«rcb of EnglHad w^e at tbe bead of Um corpor&don, and tbe majority of tbe members were of the ch.iux;b of Eog^acub attd tkK teoded tp oonSrm the 8u«|0oieiie.tbe peoplft b%i ente?t«ia«d nith respeict tek pBOfe^tiuu, «ad it. was needles ai to Vmk of getting; tbf m t^ go to the sohoQle aftec tfatd;; for tbere bi$ bardly been an instance of the conversion «f a. HtHvan CetboUo iio«e tbe ceimuest^ aoA I belieye very few. qp the «Q&/. 4 Ik* Wttney of tlbe pvoTince f«( tbeir support. NotwitbatAMing I suppcM* that- alteg^tfMi ^kff have not e4uc«ted l.^OO children a yew sin«e tbey were estabUabed. Whait was that SO^pOfi/. derived from ?-^Frqm tbe pvovipcial revenue. K4Te «»^ steps beep tidce« fof tbe e«t«bli&hme«t of sohooU in tbe teiirnabi|is ?^Y(i( bvt tbey vtU not Iwiv* these ich«ols in the townships ; ijtay will ba?e b« aeteokm tkt tavnshipa tt«l: wtjr »pffm t« h» widev t}ie diireotion of onepArtifiulAr churcjb. In yewronm o|Mnif«tt» wbftt would be ^ b«»t sysiteiP upon wbicb scbocJs W tbe iostntoi tin» <« Ae jiaPttMtWn^eiierally epidd be establisbed in tbecolony i^Tbe w stem that km proposed by tne House of Assembly by ft bill in 18] 4) vaa atwUwta tbafcof @iB0tl|pd> sad ndth eCMfS of tb4 modes adoptesd in' New EngUuad. It wa« t« hwe avbools in txwtv parish ; tbe puisbionemtabAve the power of q3Si««ingtb<)»Mel^a foe t^e pwvpesft of mamtaioiar those schools, and to appoint p««ei»ns^ a kiitd ol t<«^eii, to Ittw tbe «»n«gwkept of tie whoeHu Could scl^ools be e»^bli«I^ to wl««b hctfb CetheJloe and Pnotestentp could have vecaoMS in conupon IWTbe moment you diatipguidk between Fret^tatewi and Catbdie, t^ atsMiBCDt you separate them from one another ; you must not consider them as esttw Fwitestftntsot QplbeUcs, or else tiieqe ijs « dntinotiop betKreep them impnediitehr. Is not tbe Mraev of cb«»tftbl« contribntiott fox t|)« ppxppeea Modneaiian. United favfam in. Canida. W[| is. Aft»r » ffte^t ma«^ efipits toi ec^eblisb aohdels in fteii^ Canada, I tbuik ti'^biU v.m meoted^ Ave edifSsr« tPt depQipiaMioa^ f Pfob deneninatMHito Ip^ titedHreetien of thApoKqakof itp^wn aert, and •M»vi9g 4%QQ (pf tbp purppM ol «r«celiae »aehoQl, and j»Uwingt a,iinbpftbirMMi>pf in it^ pwud* ded tliere .were a certain number of sclioJar^-rr.atleilik biU naaigceHltak lAlPviog theate Wk m9^^ bot PfCMMPPl WtktHf)V»ii»9 ^^ I tkipk» Am tbr.mwuwi tfrs Beiere tbat ^^■■■ti= t I w ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. m t tbattfae people covld not hold any property, even if it were a in^) for the purpose of schooU^ i>ecaiue Uie heirs of the person that had made the gift used to come in and take it away fromthem; the Statute oi Mortmain prevented it; so that there are no schools for the education of the people except those ttiatare established by cliarity. The people arc, how- '' ever, making great effbrta in favour of schools ; and whether they are assisted by law or not they will be educated. Were those bills rejected by the Legislative Council ? — They were. On what grounds V — I cannot say ; the general expression among f^em was that they would have no other Act but the Act of 1801 ; and tlie Act of 1801 could not be executed from the fears with respect to religion. Was there any disinclination expressed to the system of the people assessing themselves ? ^No; that billi however, never got to the Legislative Council; it was introduced just at the close of the war, and the substitute for it was a gift to each parish, w. ether it waa 8 parish of the Roman Catholic church, the church of England, or the cliuroh of Scotland, or of Dissenters, provided they established a school, and bad a certain nuniber of scholars in it, they were to have from the provincial fund ^200, but that was objected to in the Legislative Council. Then seeing tnat hadfailed so often, permission, as I have mentioned, to eacli parish to hold property for scliooLs was introduced, and it finally passed, allowing property to the amount of jS75, a year to be held by those schools. Do you understand that a great desire for instruction has displayed itself in tlie town^. ships ?-^There is no doubt of it ; there is no American that does not think the education of his children is an essential part of his duty. What is there to prevent the people from assessing themselves voluntarily for the pur< pose ?— Thev have no legal authority for it ; if they hwl they would have done it long ago', Has any attempt been made to introduce an Act giving that permission 'i — No, I believe not, at least I know of no attempt but the general bill ot 1814. j Do you apprehend that any difficulty would be made by the Canadian party to any such enactment? — I can assure the Committee that the Canadian party will do everv thing tha^ is possible to promote education, no naatter by what party ; they are persuaded that the country cannot get on without a general education. Was there ever a period when the measures of the Oovemment were commonly supportei^ by tiie majority of the Assembly ? — Certainly ; after tlie establishment of the constitution in 1792 till 1806 and 1807, the Goveftiment had a constant majority in the House, or at I least Government generally succeeded in all its measures. I To what do you attribute the change that has taken place since that period ? — Th« meat cause of the change was the administration of Sir James Craig; he was v^ry violent I with the House of Assembly and the people generally; and he accused them of a great Imany things, and finally, on the eve of a general election he put three of the leading hien^- Ibersof the Assembly into gaol under a clwge of treasonable practices, and kept them there Itill someof them subscribed to any condition in order to get out, and others continued in till jthey opened the doors of the gaol and let them go out ; the truth was th^t there was no jnotion of treason among the people, I Do you believe these proceedings to have had a permanent influence on the Assjenibly ?— lit was the end of all influence of the administration, because it involved not only the Gov- lernor, but all the persons that were in Government employ ; they took an active part it^ It, and consequently lost their influence with the people. Since that period has the Government had no majority in the Assembly ? — It never could command a majority. During the whole administraidon of Sir George Prevost they (rere unanimous in supporting all his measures, because there was a question then of de- Icuding the country, and of doing what was necessary to be done to aid for that purpose, and Ihey were nearly the sole supporters of tlie Government at that time. During Sir John Sherbrooke's administration, the people generally were on the side of the Government, and ' ejf had a nuyst witS tlie body of ilis MaJMty'g subjecta in Lower Canada?^. Th«y had at that time very little iutercounte indeed ; their ii^ercourse was with the United Stiitifts prinuipallv. * How did it arise, that heinfr subjects of the same Kinjf, and living under the same Gov- irnment, thev could be held^in your opinion to have little intercourse or community of interest with the rest of His MaieHty's subjects V — They arc living within about 100 miles of Portland, on the sea shore, in the United States ; and they are, I suppose, 100 miles fromtht St. Lawrence ; their intercourse has been^rincipally with the country from which thej came, their connections altogether are there, and the roads between those settlements up- on the frontiei-M of the United States and the River St. Lawrence are through a forest. Per- sons in this <;ountry can have very little idea of a road through a forest in America ; if i roud were made as good as anv Macadamized road here, it would not be safe to travel one week, for the first gust of wind titat comes in the spring of the year, or the first thunder storm in summer, would tlirow trees down across it, and therefore it cannot betravelled un- less \ ou have people living there to clear the foad; now the whole extent of that countrr is still a natural forest bet < een those settlements and the old settlements on the River St. Lawrence ; there have been roads made, but those roads, for want of settlers, get fill. cd up, even though they are passable for carts ; after the work is doi\e they get filled up by the falling of trees, and there is nobody to look after the roads. Arc the Cnnunittee to understand that it would be impossible to maintain roads between the townships on the American borders and the seigneuries upon tlie St. Lawrence till the intermediat4f country is settled ? — There is nothing to be done towards making practicable roads till you make settlements. If the crown and clergy reserves were done away with, and yoU'^were to grant lands to people on condition that they would settle on them, they ^voold settle ; but people do not like to go a great wav into the woods, and to have those crown and clergy reserves to encounter ; it is a dreadful thing under any circumstance to live perhaps ] 6 miles from a human being ; it is impossible for a man to live if he has not got neigliboun to help him ; he cannot clear away a forest, he cannot prevent the rotten trees that are oc. casioned by the burninjB^ of the woods from falling down and killing his cattle, and ruiniu^ his fences ; in fact it is impossible for a man to settle down in America and live on the laud unless lie has got neighbours around him. You state in this letter that the laws which regulate property and civil rigiits, the cus- toms, manners, religion and even prejudices prevailing in t'le two provinces are essentialljr different ; and you ^o state that the inhabitants of Upper Canada, from their distance front the sea, and the want of an external market, have in a great measure ceased to be consumer) of the description of goods upon which duties areraised in the port of Quebec; and jougo on to show tliat tlieir interests are so distinct, that there would be no mode of inducing thea to co-operate in measures for the public welfare, or to entertain the same views of genenl )fblicy : Is that still > our opinion ?— Ttis true that the laws, customs, manners andpreju- dices of the two countries are essentially different; it is true, likewise, that they are begin- ing to consume lai^ely American manufactures in Upper Canada, particularly in the part of the country above Lake Ontario, which, I think, contains about half the population of the Province; and I believe there is a great line of distinction between the whole of the viem and interests of the two provinces. I cannot say positively that they could never be brought to co-operate ; I believe they have a very friendly disposition towards one another at present, and a friendly disposition will go a long way to produce co-operation under vaj difiicult circumstances ; but, generally speaking, it would be considered a verj' great hardship that the people of Upper Canada should be obliged to come to Lower Cana^ to make their local laws, or that the people of Lower Canada should be obliged to go up to Upper Caoadi to make their local laws. ' The United States along that frontier have the convenience of having five different local legislatures along that same line. There is notiiing got by beinj a member of the Assembly of the Provinces; it is all labour, and no profit. In thatcw they must go 700 miles, through a very difficidt country to travel, to attend to all their littli affairs : it would render the situation' almost unfit to be held by anj body that had noti larger fortune tlian can be found in t^at country. Must not all the commerce between the Upper Province and the mother countrv beca^ ried on necessarily through the Saint LawTence, and through Lower Canada P—Cf couni they caiinot trade m ith the mother country through the United States. Co S ^'(i ■V I I ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. m r1 Can that commerce be reg^ilated with a due reference to the interest of the I 'pper Pro- vince, if the whole of the le^slative control over it is in tl'e handH of the (tovcrunioiit uf the Lower Province? — Tliat is not the case now ; there liiw been iiohiioIi Ir^^islutive control since the year 1822; there was the Canada Trade Act passed then, which took it o>it of" the control of the LegisUiture of Lower Canada; and I believ»that thorc liavn been no com- plaints upon the subject since that time. Do not the inhal>itant8 of Lower Ca,)iada complain that the provisions of tlic Canada Trad© Act are a breach of the covenant entered into with them rewpectinjr duties, and tluit thtiy deprive the Legislative Assembl.y of a part of the power inherent in itsolf of inipoMin<; du- ties in Lower Canada? — They did complain very loudly of the renewal of xonie temporary iffovincial Acts, levying duties by an Act of the Le^riislature of thiscountr , tiey conceived that if it was not absolutely taxing the colony it cume very close to it; but still there aas been no formal remonstrance on the subject, because ti.ey were doubtful m lirtht»r this «-ou»- try could not claim some power of the kind, from the circumstance of its l»cin<; necessary to regulate a diflerence between the two provinces which they could not rejrulate themselves ; that made them rather doubthil of thegi-oundsof complaint, otherwise you would have lieard complaints more than ever you have heard yet from Lower Canada. Are ttie Committee to conclude from your statement that the commercial interests of Tip- per Canada require such a regulation of the duties in Lower Canada as amounts in reality to an invasion of the privileges which Lower Canada claims ? — No, i think >ou have bopii very kind to us, you have divested us of a great deal of trouble, for wo are not any longer to be considered as having the power of passing any regulations ailecting rradc, that is done by ou Act here ; there can be no quarrel then between Upper Canada and Lower Canada upon the subject of regulations of trade. Do you consider all duties of customs as regulations of trade ?— They all amount to tliat, and we have no duties of customs, except duties that are combined in some mcasuro iu the Act for regulating duties of Customs generally. getting aside any object as to the regulation of trade, do you supposn thnV the Parlia- nenthere could impose a duty of customs in Lower Canada, solely tor the purpose of aug- meutinv the revenue ? — Certainly not ; we hold this^ that \ou are to impose no duties ex- cepting for th« regulation of traae, and it is not to expected tliat any legislative bodv will uie that power for any other purpose; we expect that tliey will hebotidjide duties for the regidation of trade, and we understand that the proceeds of those duties, whatever they may be, are to be disposed of by the Provincial Legislature. With respect to levying duties on ^oods passing between Upper and Lower Canada, in point of fact. Upper Canada does at present raise duties upon importations from the United States, which is a frontier of 700 I miles; if they were desirous of raising a duty upon importiitions into Upper Canada, and lif it were not thought to interfere with the geiieral power of this country in respect of Iregulating the trade, they could have no difTiciilty in levying duties on goods passing from I Lower Canada to Upper Canada, since they do levy duties ou goods |>assing from I the United States into Upper Canada. The only means of access into Upper Canada from ILower C^anada are the River S};. Lawrence and the River Ottawa, they might very ciisily llevy duties there, and I think that probably after the next election, the Legislature of Up- iper Canada will ask to collect its own duties. In what way would it be possible for Upper Canada to collect its own duties ? — It could IcoUect duties much more easily upon the Lower Canada frontier than it collects duties lupon the United States frontier; it would npt he one twentieth part of the expense, for the whole extent of the frontier between L'pper and Low er Canada, which is not a wilder- iii'S8, through which no trade can pas«, cannot exceed 30 or 40 miles. Suppose the case of rum imported into Lo^er Canada, and that a merchant in Upper ICanaaa wished to transport that rum into the Upper Provinqe, under the arrangement you Hiave suggested, namely, that Upper Canada should collect its own duties, would they not Lthat case be subject to a double duty ; must there not, in the first instance, be a duty udfor Lower Canada, and afterwards another duty paid for tlie Upper Province ? — No, lliere ought to be a drawback. In the Constitutional Act there is an express power in ' ') country toi^gulate those drawbacks ; they would be entitled to a drawback upon proof einjB^ given that the thing had been introduced into Upper Canada. Do you think it possible that an arrangement of this nature could be made, that all du- ties lOM)uir»'. Juiiti IS^H. ^J H rt 11 "I ' 'I if f:„ ^ i! 1 \u Minutes of evidekoe before select committee John Neilion Esquire , & Juna 1B88. i ' m ties must ncceMarily be paid at the port of entry; but that instead of Lower Canada ^ving a I definite proportion of thoie diiticH to Upper Canada, Upper Canada should impose whatever duties Mne chooses upon iicr imports, receiving a drawback from the Lower Province of ~^ all duties that have been paid upon goods in their transport through the Lower Province? I have no doubt that such an arrangement could be made. Do you tSink it possible to enforce custom-house regulations upon the frontier line?-> If they are enforced upon a frontier of 600 or 700 mile«, thev may surely be enforced iipou a frontier of SO niiles; there could be no difficulty in collecting duties upon the Upper Canada frontier upon all goods of which the package would not liaye been brolcen ; I should conceive there would be a difficulty in collecting duties, or allowing a drawback upon any thing that had been broken. It would be easy to ascertain that the thing was in the state in which it had come into the custom-house in Quebec, in that case the drawback ought to be allowed the moment it was ascertained, but if that were not provided for, there would be a great deal of trick and roguery ; for instance, a tun of rum would be opened, and it would be watered, and two tuns made of it, and then the drawback would be allowed upon two tuns. Therefore it would be necessary to have it managed so that it would be certain that the same description of goods that had passed in at Quebec went to Upper Canada. As at this moment every tun of rum that arrives at the Upper Province mnst pass through the Lower Province, where is the security now ? — There is a great deal of rogucr)i now; but, in truth, the consumption of nun in Upper Canada has almost ceased ; they consume whiskey of their own manufacture. I believe there is no complaint at all o** the part of either Upper or Lower Canada ; they snbtnit to the regulations that have been made. What, in your opinion, would be the best mode of regulating it? — Suppose that in Up. per Canada a merchant were to order things from England, they ought either, upon some certificate of an entry at the custom-house at Quebec, to go free to Upper Canada, or ebe Upper Canada ought to be allowed a drawback upon every article that has paid duty in Lower Canada, ])rovided it is ascertained at the customhouse in Lower Canada that iond Jide the same description of articles has gone to Upper Canada, and that there has been no roguery ; but altliough there has been a great deal of talk, I beUeve the Legislative Assem- bly of Upper Canada do not make any complaint on the subject. They are now on the eve of a general election, and I dare say will attend to all those things, for they are well con. versant with their interests, and attend to them pretty strictly ; but it is a matter for the de* cision of the Government of this countnr whether duties shall be laid upon articles impor. ted into the colonies. If the Colonial Legislatures were to exercise tnat power to a ceN tain extent they might shut the British trade out altogether ; and it would, in my opinion, be a very imprudent thing for the Legislative of Great Britain, which has the general su< perintendence of the whofo empire, to allow parts of that empire to turn the current of its trade as they pleased. Are the imports of the Upper Province partly for the supply of the Upper Province and partly for importation into the United States ? — There is very little importation to the United States ; the people of New -York, although they pay heavier duties, are sup- plying Upper Canada. I believe that the Americans enter into competition every where above Kingston. Formerly the English tea could not enter the St. Lanrence at all; before the late alteration the Americans sent their tea down to Quebec and Newfound- land. In what way do you account for that ? — There is ^eater capital in the United States, and where there is a large capital trade may be earned on at a smaller profit. Our mer- chants are not trading upon their own capital ; they are really trading upon the capital of merchants in this country ; it is, I conceive, not so well managed as the American trade. By what criterion has the proportion of the duties that has been appropriated totlie use of Upper Canada been determined ? — It has been determined by arbitrators chosen by the Governor of Upper Canada and the Governor of Lower Canada, and in case of disa- greement, the Government in this country has appointed a third ; and the House of As- sembly of Lower Canada considered that as equitable a mode as possible, for they in rea- lity had ben almost tricked into a quarrel with Upper Canada. They were very glad to get rid of any thing that might get them into a quarrel again. The usual law that authorized an agreement with Upper Canada was suffered to drop in the Legislative Council, and the agreement expired ; that raised a quarrel .between the people of the two provinces, which can hardly now be raised. Ii oy THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF C AN'ADA. tta 5 Jun« last. h not the portion avrardc^d to Upper Canada objncted to as too ii^eat #ith reference to J"^'* M-Mmn, hfr consumption ?— I shmild concftivo that it is pr'<*ater than it ou;fht to be, from the dl*- E»quir«. i;um.stanco tnat there is a {threat proportion of articles introduced from the United Mtates' above Lake Ontario. Our duties lie upon a gfreat variety of (ifoods that cannot g^et be- yond Lake Ontario, and of course the arbitrators havinjf taken population as the basis, it II erroneous ; it is of no use that there should be 200,0(K) sotiU in Upper Canada, if only 100,000 consume the dutiable articles. The basis of the adjudication is objected to ? — The basis of the population certninlv it erroneons, but Lower Canada did not object to the last adjustment, so far from it, they obtained in the House of Assembly a vote to pay the arbitrators. Would there be any objection to a distribution by the Imperial Parliament of the whole revenue collected at the ports of the Lower Provinces, mndo in proportion to the res- pective population of the two provinces, tekeu at certain pcriudical intervals ? — Yes, there would. lu your view, which mode do yon think the best with reference to the interests of the tiro provinces, that which hits been resorted to of dividing the population and the revenue* collected in Lower Canada, and applying them to the purposes of Upper Canada, or that of cstablishintf a system of separate custom-houses for Upper Canada, and establishing du- ties to be collected there, and to be drawn back from tiie receipts of Lower Canada ? — I should think that, in as far as this country is concerned, the preferable mode would be, tliat of arbitration under the Canada Trade Act. I objectto nothing in the Canada Trade Act except the revival of the duties. Upon the general principle, I should say, that thO less this country has to do in legislative measures affecting the colonies, the '"^tter it i4 both for the colonies and this country. If it were to interfere frequently, it nught be the occasion of misunderstanding, when no misunderstanding ought to exist. Does not the arrangement at ))resent existing impose a great difficulty in the way of any increase being made in the taxation of Canada, if that should be found necessary ? — It does ; and there has been a representation on the subject to the Government here, upon an Application by Mr. Gait, agent for the Canada Company. There were certain resolutions passed in t!ie House of Assembly, and this matter vias mentioned in it. Tliere was some- thing submitted to Lord Godericli ; they took him as the arbitrator. Uo you consider that the union of the two provinces would be a proper remedy for those difficmties ? — It wonld not at all be consistent with the interests of the two provinces, nor would it satisfy either the one or the other. From your knowledge of Lower Canada, what do you conceive would be the feelingof that Srovince with reference to a union V — It is clearly averse to it ; both provinces are dcci- edly averse to it. What do you believe to be the feeling in Upper Canada with reference to the question P Upper Canada I believe to be clearly averse to it ; they wish not to be troubled with ui in the management of their internal affairs. The truth is, that every portion of the popu- htionin America desire as much as possible to have the management of their internal affairs confined within narrow limits- In the United States, wherever a State was extensive, they have divideid it into several States for the convenience of local management. They cut off the state of Maine from Massachusetts ; they cut out two or three States in Virgi- nia and in Pdusylvania. The object of that country is rather to sub-divide States than to unite them. What do you think of any scheme for adding Montreal and the country between Mon- treal and Upper Canada to the Upper Province ? — I certainly should think that it would be very objectionable ; in the first place, it would be throwing the whole property of 100,- 000 souls who hold property under one system of4aws to be at once governed by another system of laws, whicn they understand nothing about, and concerning which they have ex- travagant notions ; for I am confident that every system of law is good for a country when it has been long established. Do yon imagine that it would shock the feelings of the population of that part of thU country very much ? — Cei*tainly it would, very much indeea. Is it not rather an inference, from the answers you have given, that it would be desira- ble, if possible, that Lower Canada and Upper Canada shoulC carry on tfaeii- intiemal con- ^ oimi i f i- if T-rrr m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jakn NeiltoH, O^rM lepantelj, but that there* should b« Aone prindple of union between them upM JCequir*. such points, and aiioh points only m are roramon to both ; as, for example, the revenu* — ^ - \neccasary to be receiveo at the ports within the Lower Province ? — I conceive thAttb* A June 1810. thin^ a« it stands at present will work very well; those two jprovinces, and the othi>r British provinces in America, ought to stand in the same relation to the Oovemm«iit of this country in which tho different States of the American Uiiionstand to the (fenenl American Government, The seat of the British Government is hero, and the seat of the {general (lovprnment of the United Staten is at Wanhington ; the Provincial Letfislaturei may very well do a!l that is done by their State Governments, and the British (iovfrn. ment may do all that i^ dune by their Congress, and the whole thing may work to(feth«r for their mutual benefit br union and and good feeling. Do you not think that toe two colonies have the same interests in many respects, pv. ticularly with regard to improving the roads and water coramunioations f — Yes, and on that point they will act together with the greatest cordiality. Both the provinces haveig intimate interest in approving the water communication by the Saint Lawrence ; bfc-aiw, what makns property valuable at Qu(>bec, and the trade thrive there, except the trade up and down the river ? — and what is more beneficial to Upper Canada than to get the artirin which go to them up tho river, cheap, or brought down to market at a moderate price ? Thej have therefore both an interest in improving the internal communications. That operates so much with us, that although we did not know much about the M[.elland Cuuil, but merely saw that it would open a better intercourse to the Saint Lawrence for a ^rrpat extent of country, that the House of Assembly, at that time consi ting of eight out of tfo of French CansdianH, voted a sum of 25,000/. to take shares in tliat caual. When you .;tated that you thought that the relationship between the colonies of Nurth America and of this country was much the same with reference to points of geuernl gor. ernment, *I8 that which exi8t« between the different States of America and their centre of government, you muNtbe aware that there are several material difl^ereuces that must Im taken into consideration ; how would you propose to supply the want of representation in this country ? — We never have complained on that head, nor can we think of having a re- presentation here. Would not you require that the colonies should have some representation in this coiin. try ? — We have asked for an agent to rep>'<>sent the interests of the colony, uartioularly at times when there may be a difference of opinion betweep the executive and tne rpprcsenta. tive branches ; for we are not much afraid of any thing wrong going on here, if we can hart an opportunity of being heard, You think that an agent appointed by the Colonial Legislature would be a sufficient re- presentation for the colonies in this country ? — I think that there would be no danger of an; mischief being done, if there was some person here so as to ena' le all parties to be heard; - there in no opposition of interest be(we(>n the colony and the mother country ; it is an ad. vantage to us to be connected with an old rich and powerful country, and it is an ad vantairr to this country to have colonics titat are subject to her regulations of trade, and whero she can get things independently of other countries. The only f'ing that can ever place them at all in opposition, is the not t>$-!ng understood to one another, and particularly the toucliiueiu of nil colonies ; they su-e Ukf -lU children, more touchy thantheir fathers. Then you think that the ^aost desirable expedient to overcome the difficulties would b« to have an agent resitJciit iU this country, on the part of each colony ? — Yes ; aud I would think that all partiessbould have a fair chance of being heard here ; that is to say, that the Legislative Council sliould either agree in appointing the same agent with the Assenibly, or should have one of their own. Would you not think it desirable, if possible, that the same agent s^ould be appointed by the Legislative Council and the Assembly — ? If they could a^ree upon the same ajjeiit. Does not the absence of all power, on the part of the British Parliament, to levy titxrs, except for the purpose of the regulation of trade, put the British Parliament entirely on a different footing, with regard to the colonies, from that on which the Congress stands with regard, to the American States ? — There is a material difference thef e. Is not that difference so gieat as to involve the necessity either of changing the relation in which the Government stands in relati'* i to the Canadas, or of malting it impossible to carry the arrangement into effect which you have suggested ? — I conceive that there is certainly •w ON THE CIVIL OOVSRNMElfT OF CANADA. m rrrUinlT a marknd point of dUTerence in the conofiotion «ming from the limitation which thin Logislature haa put upon itaelf, of not impoainv tazea for the purpoae of a revenue in \^JIiT^* the colonies. The Congre8« of the United Statee aoee impoee taxee tor the purpoee of a 1 J rervnue ; and it may imooae internal tazee even. It« power of taxation it general through- 5 j^g, itga? out the whole limit* of the United States; in point ot fact, however, it hui |;one no further in exerciiioff it than the power of regulating trade, because nearl) all ita revcuuea are de« . rived from duties on importationi , m '"■'ii < I tt H ! ,, S - f ■ I- ; 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE John NeiUont Esquire. 4 f^ , 7 Jun« 1U28. Sobbatit 7®. Juniif 1826. John Neilson, Esquire, again called in ; and Examined. t)ID not the proposition of tlie Union, which was broun^ht forward in the British Par. liament in 1822, excite a very stronfj^ feelinflr anion Hpon th« subjert of tho division of notios since that, time ; ns to the collection of the du- j^^„ NnhoH ties on the frontier, I have Hlr<>ady hnd the honctur to state that I could not say positirely Enquire. whether they would Hnd it ptactionhlo j but niy opinion van that it was pructicable to a, ^^ , certain extoi'it ; that they have cn'lhtoted diitieK upon a frontier of 00 or 700 miles ; and 7 June 1888. {should suppose from that, thnt they could collect some duties upon A frontier of 30 miles; tliuta new election was ^oingf onin Uppcl^ ("anaaH in this year ; and that tlie people there nould no doubt be able to say what they could do, or what they could not do. Ate not the Committee correct hi uuderstiuuliug you to have stated to the Committer (hat n» objection exists to the principle of arbitration, as reguhitin}"' the proportion of the duties necessarily levied in Lower Canada, which tni^jht to be applied for the civil govern- ment of the Upper Province ? — I have stated thrit, as fnl- as my opiniou went, I did not ob- ject to any piU't of the measures adopted in this country to terminate the dift'ervnces be* Ween the two provinces, exceptiu? that which went to renew the temporary provincial Acts Icvyinn; duties, which I conceive to be very nearly appnwclting (o taxati^'n, and cou- Sefluently rather infringing upon the declarations of this country. You arc aware that however anomalous the introduction of those claused ihight have Wn into the bill of 1822, the object of their introduction was to prevent the Goveni- nlent of Upper Canada beini>- deprived of the means of being carried on in consequence of (he cessation of revenue in the Lotver Province V — We never had any doubt as to the in- tentions of the Government here, or of Pai-liameQt, with respect to that bill ; we have al- \)fty8 conceived that it was intended to relieve Upper Can«aa from her dependence on Lower Canada ; biit the bill was received M'ith a great deal of (iisSatisfactiOn 6n account of 6ne circumstance. We had no opportunity of having any person here t6 represent Lowef Canada, though they had a person to represent LTpper Canada ? The question refers to the practical point of the necessity of continuing those duties ?->- With respect to the continuing those duties, . I state what I have stated elsen^here, that I conceive it to be vCry dangeroiiis as a precedent^ and rather infringing npon what I conceive (o be the constitutional rights of the colonies ; but, in point of tact, we ourselves would have been obliged to continue those duties, had they not been continued here. Part of them were refused to be renewed in 1821 or 1822, because there was in fact no want of the money. Tr.e (JoveVunient at that time used to tell us. " we do not want any inoncv "from you; England will pay the Civil List itself ^f you of> not phy it, as wo require it.'* That was the language of the gentlemen actiutr in the House of Assembly on the part of the (fovernmcnt. Wiien they proposed to continue the bill of 1821 or 1822, it was referred td a committee ; there was a report ; and finally the House refused to continue one of the temporary Acts : saying, " very well, if Gifeat Britain is to pay the expenses,- we do not " Wiinttms money; we will relieve the ttade of it.^' That was the cause of suffering thai dirty to expii'e j but the moment there was a queaftion of providing for the expenses of the (loverument, it wOuld have hr'> necessiuy for ns to rctive or continue that bill ; wef could not have paid the eX{^<>''isc.> . f - % u- ''or that purpose, and likewise for the othet purjidse^ {hat are indispensable ; >»uOi( ai., ujmetMng like misccUauedus votes here, hospitals an J education, and sevci'ii' iMval appropriations that are usually lub-iu; and besides that, the improvements of ro'ilK >>iit' the internal uavigati'on. With all these things we had the ^ Chiunbly Cansil, and the La Chine Canal, to provide for ; '*e«"'"tainly would have conti- " nued those duties ourselv 'S ; therefote, in point of fact, thou„;- .,.iO precedent was dange* rous, you took nothingfu irt us t at we voiild not have given ourselves. The precedent Aiay, however, cause ago jd deial of hesitatioi^ in consenting tc new duties required for tem- porary purposes. Doyou admit then, that if the Assembly of Lower Canada, on account of any reasons, fiad not revived those temporary Acts, the effVjct v^uiil to tiat extent have been to have deprived Upper Canada of the means of carryiujoii her dvU government? — Certainly, Upper Canada would have been diminished initsni'^ans ; hui 'Jpper Canada would not have been injured by Lower Canada in tliat i .v?pe(6t;b<"r«^iyjt it w\u» a temporally Act. When Upper Canada consented that Lower Canada shou'd ia'^vose those duties of which they were tor haveashare, it consented to it in the r. ;nner ii« which the Actswere passed for a certain > tune, 80 that U|>per Canada would havehavlio easo'ii ;o comphun: it is we that have had I ftwOB to complaui, because those Acta hdvt ^k'en cj'j tinned b<^youl the time. No one F, ever .u:H f !1 r. }U ]:■. 11 lit, l30 hi , ': ■ pi ', 1 , '■/ ■ 1 1 1 1 ijmg^yjm^ '! IfllHMHlF 7 June lrf28. r -s MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT C0MMtTtEl2 over intended to make t! ose Acts permanent, and tV-erefore Upper Canadn cou'd not be deceived in tliat respect. These questions are not put to j'ou with a view of establishing any ground of complaint of Upj)er ('itiinda a^inst Lower Canada, but merely to illicit the tact 'Whether the con- duct of Lower Canada v ith respect to this continuing the Act does not necessarily expose Upper Canada to a failure of revenue, which prejudices her means of carrying on her civil government ?— It is obvious, that if there is a revenue of which Upper Canada gets a part, and that is discontinued, that Upper Canada is t:.ereby deprived of so much revenue. Are you not prepared to admit that Ui>per Canada has no means within herself of obviating the incoHveuience of such a cessation or ier revenue? — I cannot say so. I have said t\:t contrary, t at I conceive she may collect duties for herself. But supposing that should not prove to be the ftict, in that case do you not sidmit that she has no means of obviating the inconvenience ? — If she has no other means, certainly. Are you not aw.ire that complaints have been made by Upper Canada, that s « could not impose taxes upon commodities « Inch would afford to her a more beneficial revenue than t'fat revejuie M'hich she nov receives under the operation of the separate and exclusive taxation of Lo •• er Canada ?— I know that she t as complained that she could not collect a revenue sufficiently, unless it »»a8 at tlie Port of Quebec, and I know that it is upon that ground that comjilaints were sent home to ti:is country, and Mr. Robinson was sent home to support those complaints, and if ve had been heard at the same time we might Iiave fallen upon some mode that vould have satisfied all parties, but we were not I.eard. As many years have elapsed since, and you have had time to cor^ider . he native of t' ose rtmecfies, can you now point them out to the Committee i- ''''' os? remedies mu.st depend updn the (^onsent of two parties. I can say vhat I think n/- lit be feasible, bnt it must be conceived to be feasible b> both parties, or it will amount to uoll "ng. State what in yourviewcouJdbeeflected?— Iliave already stated that 1 1' ought that Up- per Canada could collect a revenue upon the frontiertowardsLower Canada. I have retleit- ed upon the thing since, and I think it feasible; and if that were not feasible, it still "ouW be feasible to make a i' arehouse at Quebec, where articles imported for Upper Canada would be received and delivered out, so as to secure their not being sold or distributed in Lo^er Canada ; if the goods were put into the King's w arehouse at Quebec, for instance, there is nothing in the world to prevent their being transmitted through Lovrer Canada free of all duty, upon certificate being had that they are entered in Ujmer Canada, and t'e duty paid or secured. That has been practised iu other countries. The other mode t' at I Suggested > as, that they might be allowed drawbacks. I am confident t at the Uo pro- vinces could fidl upon soma mode by \<^hici they would mutuall) afford sufficient conve- nience for one aiu>thor to levy the duties necessary for their 0"n purposes, wit' out int ■•• fering or quarrelling ; but it " ould require that they should understand one another as to what would be agi'eeable to both parties. Then you are of opinion that it is practi cable to make an arrangement under whicH Ip per Canada may tax herself ? — Yes, and be satisfied ; I have aot the least doubt of it ; ■ may be done either upon the frontiers, or at Montreal, or Quebec, a'ld b\ allov ir.g a i\i^ • back. If they pure ase articles in entire pieces as imported, they may have a dra*l»ack upon proof of entry in Copper Canada, and raving pain or secured the duty ; or t! cy may have a warehouse at Quebec, aud have t e goods deposited there and transmitted uudera certificate of the custom-house at the port of entry to Upper Canada; it would entail a lit- tle more expense, but it. v ould not be material ; and I am confident it might all be doue at le.ss than the expense of coll<>ctiou at ttie Port of Quebec at present. Under the view you take of this8ubject,are the Committee to understand that • oil propos* that ai'bitration should regulate the proportion of those duties which are charged equally in tlio two provinces, but at the same time if Upper Canada thinks it necessary fof Iier own purposes to increase tlie duty on anv particular article, or to impose a duty upon an avticle which is not taxed in IiOwer Canada, it would be practicable to carry such intention '3i '" effect? — We have never objected to the system of arbitration as adopted in the Act hc^: we have consent(>d tot'at arbitration, andl believe that it satisfies all parilcs for the prespnt. If a mode could be adopted for each province to levy its own dities it would be better, !«• cause it would leave them to tax such articles as each liked; but in reality, Itbink xStt lev)''5j( «ucU duties upon trade by the Colonial Legislatures to a^y g) eat extent ma) be liable to » .'»'■»'»•' , rresl k1 )■»' ti. ,'d not be coraplaliit the con> ily oxpose n her civil ;ets a part, >nue. f obviating ! said i\.i tldmlt that 1. certainly. B could not ivenue thau d exclusive lot collect a ! upon tliat s sent home miff I it liave eard. he nature of .■,(» reiuediej be feasible, wht that I 'It- have rctlctt- it still would )per Canada ■ tribut'editt or instance, wer Canada da, and t' e mode t' at 1 he tvo pro- L-icnt conve- it^ owt irtt-- uothor as to whicli I'p- nibt of it ; iug adi:!- a drawback ort^ cvmay Itted under a entail a lit- he done at ■ oil propose fd equall* in > iTer own >u an article itention"!'" le Act he^- Ir the presfii. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. lai if proat many difficulties, and very dangerous. This country must reg^ulate the trade, and _ . ., ^ ^ you must consider the situation in which those colonies are placed, with regard to the Esnuire!"' United States of America : if you choose to let the colonies levy duties upon articles tiiat^ ,.J^-«>l.— . they can get from this country, and not levy duties upon articles that they can get from 7 June 1628- the United States, your trade might be, perhaps, unintentionally turned out of that country. Did not tlie trade bills of 1822 and 1824 impose duties in their schedules upon articles imported from the United States ? — I know there have been duties imposed by Lower Ca- nada and by Upper Canada independently of the Acts of t le British Parliament ; those in Lower Canada have ceased ; it was generally conceived that tlie thing was not at all consis- tent ; the Government of the Empire have regulated the trade between the Uniteou have the people on both sides interested in some measure in this system of smug- gling and unrestricted intercourse; and M'hen the bod;, of the people on each side the frontier are interested in favour of it, how can you prevent it being done ? — There is 8:me* ijigso consonant with the character of the people of America in this kind of trading »u .'lie another, independently of all regulations, t lat during the last war our arms was sap, .i'^i t'lroug'i t\.e American army with the greatest part of its provisions. Under these ;lfcumsthn-je3, I would submit whether it is practicable on sucli a frontier to prevent SI uowling if tliere is any thing to be made by it, and if there is nothinn^ to he made by it, '.'istheuse of the laws and regulations? .Ifasytem of custom-houses were esta- biisiied ;:long the frontiers, it would ultimately make t'.ie people on both frontiers hostile to lae bhtish Government, for the acts of the officers of the Government are too com- monly ascribed to f'e Government, and particularly in America ; if any thing is done it is in the name of the British Government, and if they quarrel with officers they are quarrel- linv in some measure with the Government, so that in reality this kind o( nuisance that the people wiU suffer in consequence of all those custom-house officers collecting a reve- nue, which will be no revenue, upon the frontier8,will dissatisfy the people with tlie Bri- tish Government, and consequently, being dissatisfied in that way, botn the Americans on their side and our own people on ours, we will run the risk of oeiug overwhelmed, as I said be'bre. How do the American States resrulate the intercourse between Canada and their terri- lie better, bfr Ik iSe lev>-i5i{ liable to » great U ry? — There is hardly any regulation or difficulty to the intercourse. I came through that way ; I brought aU t lat was necessary witii me to f is countr. , books and papers, and other things; when I came to the first custom-house, a gentleman came in to the inn ^here I stopped and told me that he was a custora-lioi<.6e officer, if I would be so good K to report what I had brought. I told him M'hat I had brought, and he wislied me good t " > ,*;■■* i. t .M' i', i V- [■n^' \'>. i^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE John £m) H i (if- iiliilli Neilion, good day and a pleasant jounifiv : tliat watt the ^hole ceremony; there was nothing; to iquire. pay ; but with us they make tncm pay for every little thing, permits, and so on. -^ » Is there any transporter valuable good-s of any kind from Canada to the United States? 7 June ^828. — There is a trade jroini? on of some kind, but it does not appear much, by the custpijj. house reports, on i-ither side. If the iJnited States of Amori^'nare able to euppl)' Canada with such njanufkctiircd arti. pies as it requires, do you tliink that it v.i)l supersede the trade with Great Brituiu ?— It ivould, no doubt ; aiid it i^ for that rea^op that\I think it is pxtremely dangerous for tbii pountry to s^lovf toQ sre;>t a latitude to the Colquial Lojrislaturcs to lay duties upon ar- ticles to he jiuiported hy Quebec, because that augments the price of thf>se articles, and diminishes the inducement for their consumption. It is easy to collect duties at th« por|; of Quebec, but they cannot be collected with equal pertainty along the frontiera; thi(( has a tendency to make the Colonial Le^slatures lay them on heavily at the port of Quebec, and thereby shut out the British trade, which must come in at that port. Tbe duties there give a bounty as it were upon a clandestine importation on the otner side: now it is a matter of fact that the manufactures of the United States have been sellinir at Montreal ; coarse cotton manufactures fit fpr the wear of labouring people. It is t« pe observed tliat the great niiisis of the people in tliese untries are labouring people. Tht wealthiest of ' '^m o^en wear the manufactures of their pwn family, made up in tiieir own family. 1$ ^t \yithin ; ' '-wledge, to take one example, that previously to the opening of tlu tea trade direct nv yfjebec, the pripe of tea was lower in the Upper Province thikfi i| wjm in the Lower '(--'■ 'tainly it was. Can that b^attributcd to any thing else than to the constant practice of smuggling from ^he United States ? — The United States supplied all the parts bejow Quebec with tea, ^ud many other things of value. It is utterly impossible to prevent smuggling in America} ^he only way is not to give an inducement to it. Can you state the proportion of tea which was brought in from the United States, aaj of that which was brought in at Quebec ? — We have no mode of judging of it except bj the diminution in pur importations. We found that the importation from England \i'a< diminishing every year, and some perspns said that it was a cessation of the consuiuptioij of tea, which was a very unlikely t!ung; at last the truth came out that it was thettt from the United States that was coming into competition. Are not the manufactured articles chiefly consumed in the Canadas generally of t ; coarse description, which do not so well bear the cost of transpprt? — Of course. Do vou conceive it probable that the United States must necessarily soon supply tht great bulk of those articles ?— The only preventive of that is getting into tliose coun- fries articles of British manufacture as clieap as possible, and consequently keeping th« duties and other cxi)pnses as low as possible upon the iutroduction of them. What description of goods, besides the coarse cotton goods you describe, are smuggled into the Cauaoas ffom the United States '^r^ Silks, and all East India goods; but Mr, Cuvillier, who is here, can give better information upon that, because he has been Ion; engaged in trade, aud I am not, Under the statement you make, of the impossibility erf preventing smuggling from th« United States, is it not more convenient that the revenue that miiy be necessary for the pur> poses of Qovernment in those provinces should be derived from internal tajution rather ^hau tVom import duties? — You will have a very badly supplied Gk)vemment ifyoads- j((end upon internal taxation for it. I have stated that the nresent revenue is about equal to the expenses; I have no doubt that if necessity existed we would find the means of raising more money ; we mi^rht raise money by_ licenses and things of that kind. If it ^ere necessary there is uo danger that they will find me^ns pf raising enough for thi real wants of the country; but it would be desirable that the country should have th* means, under proper accountability, of extending its improvements ; it ought to run i race with the adjoining couqtrics, or else it will not only he laughed at, but be raine4 Do not you conceive that the same difficulties which you say would arise from ait| attempt to prevent smuggling between the United States and the Canadas, would in a great measure apply equity to any attempt to establish a separate scale of duties in the rer nroviBLceii ? — There is no dQub|; tliat it would; but the line it not very QXtemire^ Ujkpei* aud Lower •i,;ii»f w ON THB eiVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 1S3 ttxteiuiive, and ooods could ooly enter by the Two Rivers ; the saftest place is no doubt the Port of Quebec. Is there any qualification for members that sit in the Letpslative Assembly ? — No quali- fication. ^ 7Jun«, lii there ^ny qi}»pQc«tipn lor n^emberg that sit in the Legrislative Council ? — No quali- ^catioo, In your opinion would it be desirable to iot^odvce a qualification ?-T-The inconTenien- ces have arisen from the exercise of the prerogative with re^pec^ to t^e Iiejpslative Conn* cil ; the King by the Constitutional Act nas the right of naming i^em. What would be the effect of liniiting the prerogative, by a regulation that i)0 penoi| should be nominated unless he was possessed of land to a certain extent ? — If vou could have an independent Legislative Council, you would have something like a British Con-^ stitution, and the affairs of the country would go on. In that case ^here would be a bo^ iy tiiat would have a weight in the opinion of (he country when the Governor and the Assembly were at variance, and on which ever side they dechired they would in- cline tlie balance ; if they werf independent men connected with the country, it would be impossible to resist the declaration of the Council, consisting of respectable and inteU liffent men, in any dispute between the Goverpor and the Aasemblv ; but under present circumstances every one supposes that the Council decide always just as the Governor pleases, and they have no weight, Have you ever turned in your niind any plan by which you conceive the LegisLitiva Council might be better composed in Lower Canada ?t-I am willing to say what I would gi^rgest, but it must be consisidered as entirely my own individual suggestioo, and not the sug^stion of the petitioners. There are two modes in -which the composition of the Le> ffislative Couucil might be bettered, the one which, I believe,- the majority of the people ii| Lover Canada have Ju view, is by the exercise of the prerogative appointing {^nen who ar» independent of the executive, and in fact who are able to live by tneir own means. That lias appeared to us to be the most consistent >vith the constitution under which we live, If that were found to be impracticable, the other mode would be to make, the Legislative Council elective, by electors of a higher qualification, and fixing a qualification in pro;* peHj for the persons that might sit in the Council. I should conceive that the latter mode would be safe enough for all parties ; still it seems to be a deviation from the con* stitution under which we live. You conceive, then, that the fault of the Legislative Council is not in the original constitution of the body, but in the manner in which the choice of counsellors has oeen exercised ? — Certainly ; that may, perhaps, be unavoidable ; because it is impossible that the Government here should see in the colony, excepting by the means of the people that are in the colony, they must take the fecommenoations that are sent from the colo- ny, and if they are iqen that are not independent, and not suited dtog9ther to act ai| independent part in the Council, of course they must appoint tbein Qotwithstapdipg* for they do not Know that it is otherwise. When you say that those alterations would improve the constitution of the Legislar tive Council, do you use the word ' improve', in th?8 sense, that they would constitute a body which would agree vfith the lou-er House in their views, instead of agreeing with the Governor, as it now does, in his views. ? — I should suppose that it would be compel- led to agree with neitlier one nor the other. At present we suppose that it is absolutely compelled to agree with the Governor. Then it would be an independent body, that would keep the beJance between the two, and give a certain stability to the existing laws ap^ ioatitutuma. Do you conceive that if there were some qualifiication required from the ippipl^fpi of I the Legislative Council, that the province would still feel satisfied to allow t^^ ppmina- tion of the Legisla»tve Council to remain with th» Cj^oym ? — Th^ geuf^ral feeling of '^he p«(^e has not been in favour of alteratiop, b^t inithei? a feeling oFsatis&ction with the utul right* exercised by the Crown in those matteni. It never was imaj^ned, by us at . least, tuit the Legislative Council waa to be otherwise than a body originating i-^: soma I meaiure from the Crown. Are you of opinion that any class of executive officers should be excluded by law from \\>^ ■cmban «£ the Legtsl^tiva Council ("—Yes, certainly: John NfilMa, £H]iiir«. isss, n .1, I. 11 '■; d •It' (,y ■>. ft n •.^^' 134 MINUTES OF ETIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE N 1 ^^^^H^' J»hn Alrt/ion ^'^^ ' **" specify thpm ? — I should say that in that country the judges ousfht to ht j^^qpiie. * excluded from the LegisUitivc Council: for it unavoidably niixos th^m up with politici, f- ^. i,-^and they become, instead of judg^cs, in 8onie measure, political partisans. 7 June, 1828. Do j on think tlf justice i« to he every thinj; as he is at jiresont, a member of the Lejpslative Council, chaimuto of the Executive Council, preHiding in the Court of Appeals, and takincran active part In all the public business of the province, he must be .ilmost incapable of aroiding, when he is upon tlie bench, feeling a certain bias : it is believed too that such a bias existe; for iubtance, vhcn a prosecution is advised, it must be sanctioned in the council in or> , der to allow the expenses, the Executive (Council has of course advised the prosecution, and the chief justice is t' c judge to sit on the bcno!) and try it, and he is in danger of being biassed. In trut'i, people do conceive tliat there is a bias at present in matters where "the Crown is concerned. If t ic chief justice did not belong to the Executive Council, do you tJ.ink there would be any objection to his belonging a the Legislative Council? — If the chief justice or any judge, were not to be active politicians, t^'ero would be no harm iu their being any where; but fie society being small, they become active politicians. Is not it by being Executive Councillors that they get mixed up with politics?— Yt-g, that is the great e^nl of their being Legislative Councillors, but in the Legislative Coun- cil,, in the pasisiiug of bills, they take an active part ; they are for or opposed to the bill, and it l^as been frequently found thit they interpret in their courts according to the iu> ternretrtt'on in the Council. Is the >.' ''f justice ejr o^c/o chairman of the Executive Council? — No, the Constito. tional A ... ^.ys, that tlie governor shall appoint the chairman. Is tliere any other class of e^iecutive othcers that you would he desirous of excluding frora the Legislative Council? — I do not see that theie can be any objection that there should he \ecu ' :: :>fticers in the Legislative Council, provided there is not a majority ' of them. Then, in addition to t'lc objections atising from the nature of the offices, you would put a limit upon the number? — That the King can do at all times. Would you think it desirahle that a provision of this sort should be made, that not above a cert gislativc Council remains with the Crown, would make it such as would command the fjonfidence of the people ? — I should hope so. Supposing such fegiilations to take place with respect to t^e Legislative Council at - ' t' ose to which you liave referred, supposing that there should not be in it a majority of persons holding any situation of emolument under the governor ; have you any apprehen- Kions in that case that the Legislative Council would be considered with jealousy by the inhabitants of Lower Canada ? — I should conceive that it would acquire great weight, but at present there has been a great deal of difference, and a great deal of disagreeable ci^ cumstanccs that it is not necessary to repeat, and it is some time before confidence re- covem after such dissisreeaible circumstances; but I have no doubt that if the mosteih lightened Jr/. ON THE ClVIL GOVERNMENT OJF CANADA. 199 iightcned and independent people in tlie country were placed in the Le^Hlative Council, that it would acquire in public opinion a counterpoise to the House of Assembly, that is, J^J^^ Neilton if the House of Assembly are wrong ; if they are ri^ht and the Council are wrong, I Eiquirt. should suppose the Assembly would uaturalli carry it, but as things stand at present in r- " -^ popular opinion, there is no counterpoise to the House of Assembly. 7 June, 18X8. If it be deemed expedient to introduce a qualitication as ensurin*;' the independence of the members of tiie Legislative Council, do you not think that in principle it would be desirable to introduce a qualitication with respect to the members in the Lower House of Assembly ? — At present 1 do not see any use that the qualification Mould be of, for they are ml qualified beyond what is proposed, even in the Union Bill ; I know only of one individual member ti-. iL fc — ^agitations that have occurred have made them enter more into the prevailing notious of 7 Jiina iiii<9. tiie present time Of A representative government. Since you have stated, that thi^ inclination towards popular privileged is upon tne ii- crease iq Uie Canadas, do not you think that it woulu be wise, in any change that '» made in the institutions Of that province, to meet what will be more and more tUe winkt Of the people, and make them extremely popular ? — It is very good; but it is very du. gerous to hurrj people' in ttiat respect ; I should coucerve that they ought to have the ^ipotite before you give them the toOd. I conceive that the people of Lower Canada art certainly making rapid strideis in attachment to a representative government. Twcuty years ago I coula uot have believed it myself; but still they are not gaturally a democni- ^ ticat people, nor have they any strong desire for the tJnitea States. Havioe stated that t!ier« might be objections to the Legislative Council being appoint- ed for lire, do you conceive that there are materials for forming an hereditary council? ' — The aQstcr that I have already given relating to the evanescent tttate of property there kill explain, in some measure, mt opinion, t' at aa hereditai^y Legislative Council would If ot do m Lower Canada ; they might be hereditary beggary, and fall into contempt. Anieti. ca is a new couutrv, where all mn»t be sctivrly industrious,- oi decline in means. Yoa may form a tolerably cotrect idea of AAserica by supposing a number of people hewing down V forest, changing ft into fields, ^hile otbers are doing such other parts of labour as ave ittdespensable for ftnKhering this immense work. Under all the circumstances, the Respect that ought to be attached to an hereditary aristocracy, and which is necessary f give it a useful existence, n'oiild not be maintained in America. lou have said that nith regard to the House of Assembly it would be a good thiiij^ ta ^ave some members of the dovei'nmettt iiitroducedf into it ; is there any such a decided iutlueuce of GoTernraent over any particular' parts as to give ihem aseettrity for havinv a certain nu;aber of members ? — Tlie Government have put in some members, and tlier had at one time a majority of persons that were agreeable to them, but some how or other for a considerable time past, t* ey have lost the conficfence of the electors. At Gaspt> ther still have nut iua member, ana at Soret and at Three Rivers, but they have had haril * Rtruggles Bor it ; at Sorel they were turned out« and. at Threer Rivers they succeeded odIjt iii^ ootaiMug oner of the members. Under tuese circumstances, shoidd you not tMnk it a goof thing that ceytain memben Of Government in active situations should have the right of attending and speaking in the House of Assembly wit out voting ??— The thing would be very extraordinary, a,d die situation wOuld be a most unpleasant one to the gehtleAien that would attend there? they would not have' th'e pri'vileges of meinbei^, aud they would be amongst people that would, view them with a. kind Of jealoiuy and suspicion. Are you aware that it is the case in the French Constitution, that the French minis- ters attend and speak, but do not vote ? — No ; we have rather looked to the British Constitution. Hi^ve you any papers to deliver in to the CoWmktee ? — I ^iU delivei^in copies of 8e< Veral other bills that have been referred to in my ervidence ; one is a Bill for vacatin*^ fhe seats of Members of tile Assembly in cases therein mentioned ; another is a Bill to remod> tho Improvident Grants of the Waste Lands of tbo Crown, and the other is a BiH H^ provide ft>r the Trial of Itnpeachments iu iiis Pi-ovincie. [27«« witness delivered tn. the scmie^ "^ E«qttire. ''llSlvt^.: At)m Bm/amin "^ger, Esq^ caQed in ; ancf Examined. AR1@^ yon a native of Lower Canada ? — I am. ^ Are YOU; connected with the prof^assion of the law? — I am an advocate. la Wmit court do you practise ? — In Montreal. I practise occasionally iU the Court of Ag^alP at Quebec, but. my residence is in Montreal. what number of public courts of justici: are tKere iu the province ? — We have a Court of Wm \ ' OS Tim CIVIL GOVERNMEN'r OF CANADA IS-? Kin"'s Bondi iu tlie district of Qiu'l)»»r, and a Court of Kitiij's Pencil in t!io disfn'ot of Montrriil ; thou th Tft are, l)esit, at St. FniH.-i«. C] ^ijl"^ Is St. Fnuuis within the townships y— It is. ^ •"'"•• *"'"'• Is the same code of laws administered in all of those courts ? — We always understood it •0 till the Act of the (ith (ileor^re +, wiiich -as a declaratory Act hy the Parliament of England, dccidinj;; that the laws of En-fland wore the laws of the townships, I oujfht to hdd in answer to t c former (piestion, that in the district «»f Three Rivers t tvo ind;re8 of the Court r,f Kin] t3S MINUTES or EVlf)::NCE BKFO;iE SELECT COMMITTEE it'-r, I »28 Canada, tlic JurioH ar« to be tiiken from the city of Montreal for the ditttrict of Monfrcul, and froiu the city of Qiielxic for the district of Quebec, sothat hy that means you have only c'tlzens of Moatre.i'l luid Quebec to form j uries for a [>o|>iilatioii of about •lj0,00() souU, "* uhicli is certainly not uiicordin'f to the? coustitutional principles of jury trials. Tliej should bo taken from the \vhoh> musn of (he popuLttion, because there ought to b«>a common a»iso('iation of ideas between the partieN and tlie juries. The reason why tb« people, (generally speaking-, are averse to liave trials hy jury is, first, that they are ex. tremely expensive; and, m the second place, they can never depend upon having jurort who have u common association of ideiM M'ith the people whom they try. In Lrencral, the graat advanta;fe of trial l)y jury is, that they may form an opinion as to the cniiiiiiali. ty or innocence ot the party, from the circumstances and from their knowledire of the rank of tliu parties, their chiiracter in society, and their usa^^es, and this advantage is Ioi,i in Canada, because, thou^lt those juries may be very respecUible and honest men, tbcr do not uadorstaud sometimes even the laiijj^ua^e of the persons they are to try. I would Ray that tliere is not a jury trial in criminal matters in Cauadii, accordin^^ to the lawHof F4n<>-land, at least in Montreal, because I never saw any petit juries that were not taken from the city of Montreal. Tlie citizens of Montreal, by that practice, exercise a kind of to«er of life and death over A population of about very near a00,000 soulti. I do uut now upon what that can be founded. I know that the law is a^inst it ; the procepti of thejud<;es are to take the juries from the boily of the district, from the jurisdictioa of the shcritl', as it is in England; yet singular to tell, they have never been taken except from the city of Montreal, and though we have complained, and there were some reso- lutions piissed in our Assembly upon the subject, this, which I consider a great abuse, ii at this moment continually acted upon in our courts of justice. These circumstances ma; have given occasion to some prejudices aj;|;ainst juries generally. In mv practice my cli- ents have ft-equently expressed a wish of having their causes tried by Junes, provided they could be taken from the vicinage. What other objections were stated by the Legislative Council to the measure y«u pro- powd ? — I think they did not like the circuits. Was it youi wish to apply juries to civil cases? — I do not like sudden changes io any case. I did not wish at that moment to extend jury trials further than tbe law gives it present ; but I would have thought it desirable in a little time to extend it to other cases, where mere matters of fact are to be decided ; for example, where daraagei :re to be given for a trespass, it scented to me that those would be proper cases for i jury ; I should not think it desirable to introduce juries in matters of mere property, of mere title, of mere conventions. When this bill passed in the House of Assembly I did not vi'ish to derange the system too much ; I only wanted te lay a foundation tor tlie administration of justice, civil and criminal, upon the constitutional principles of Eiu gland, particularly to have circuits, to have a judge that would not be connected with the pai-ties, that would go to the spot, and would there receive the verdicts of the juries. VVhat number ot judges iu'e there in the existing courts? — There are four judges of the King's Bench at Quebec, and four judges at Montreal; one provincial judge at Thrw Rivers, pne at Gsispe, and one at St. Francis. Can you state what proportion of those judges are of French extraction, and what of English ? — There is pue at Quebec, one at Montreal, and the provnncial judge of Tlire* Ilivers, who are of French extraction ; all the others are Americans, Scotcluaen, Irish* men, and of the neighbouring provinces. What oiiportunity have the gentlemen of English extraction of becoming acquaint*' with the Frencli law ? — They generally study with a lawyer of the country. There il no college in Canada where the civil law is taught. I think it would be very desirable that we should have a professor of civil law ; but we have had so many things to think of thst we have not been able to establish it. When I spealc of the civil law, it is to be obsened tVat tho^h we speak very much of the Coutume de Paris, and the ordinances of the King of France, it is hut a small part of our law. The common hiw of Canada may be called the civil law, as it was interpreted, and as it was practised in the Parliament of Paris. Where thtt Coutume de Faris, or the ordinauces of the kings, are sileni, thea wi take the general principles of the civil law as the raison ecrite ; la this sense it may h* looked upon as the common law of Canada. Voi ON THE CIVIL GOVERNiMENT OF CANADA. ISO You 1>!iTC stated tli;it n part of t «• !"'!?•''* '" tho Coiirt of Kinuf's Rimjl'Ii arc^ in tin* li.i'ilt of 0()in';, on certain ouciisioiis, to Tlir«»* RiviM-s, to hold a court th(»r« ; will you (L'S(M'iHo what the process is? — At Throe Uivern the proviurial jiid;^e dooidcn alone iu cn.'^OA under 10/.; but in cases above 10/. Hterliiijr two Jnl^feH must sit iu the court to form a quorum •/ and for that reason, every term one of the judges of (Quebec {(oes to Three Uivers, and one of the jud„'e« of Montreal noes tliere also. ]i that practice conliui'd to Three Rivers; or does it expend to Oaspi" and St. Franein ? —It is coutiued to Tliree Rivers ; at (Vvspe and at St. Fr.uiL's the jurisdiction is limited ; •t (JH.s;vincial judges alone have no criminal jurisdiction ? — No. When the court of King's Bench sits at Three Rivers, wl>encc are the juries drann?— I never was at Three Rivers at the sitting of the court ; but I understand that they are perhaps drawn upon a better plan, not only from t'te city, but from the vicinity. That iH not the case at Montreal and Quebec ; I speak of petit juries; for some years grand juries have been partially taken from the body of the aistrict. Is there any criminal jurisdiction at Gssiii(.„, B n f'fVcr, with rcafiinl to dliurchi'H, t. i'V,' iinist h« i»onn' |ir«vioiiH iirnui^ciiK'nt, npidiciifiou imiNt U I'sniiiro. miulo ti» the (iov('rn«»r, awl thi'H th.*rp luo r-)oiiit>>(l (or tin* imrpow; ^ * — - — »thon flioro ih ii kia jtr^-t iiK'ntioii >.l What proportion of tbo y»>ar d(> the ('onrtu of Ki\>:,''.s B<'ni'h nit in Qufhoc and Mon- tival ? — 'Fonr tfrnis of twenty «IayM oiwU for civil rans«'s, iind two tcrniH of t««n dayifaik for uriniiiiiil juriHiliftion, hosidcs toriUH for (;ivil Jitri.'^ilic.tion iindt'r 10/ Mt<>rlini>din^H conducti'd ; arc tlicro ph'adinffH in writiiiir? — VU'ni in;;.s ar<> in writiiiir in the MuixM-ior conrt, not in tUc- i ''"'•' or court; in tli« court iimlir t«n ptuiudN tliiTft ari! no |di>aiiin;(s in writinjf, unlfNs t.h v < order it in some iatrirat* oitsi'n, hut in ail ci^on ahovo ten poiindt* all the proreedi..^.i are (generally in writing'. Yon mentioned t at at t^neltec! and Montreal there wm a i'ourt of Kin;j'H neiuli, con. (dstin;; <»f four jiid;fes ea»;h ; is that snhdivided into a Hiiperior and an inferior triljinml>-. YeH, one jiui;;e decides in caseH under 10/., and in casen above 10/ there iniist he two jiid^reti. Geuoruliy four jud;re8 sit, hut tiie quorum of the court is fixed at two iu rird niitters. In «ases under 10/. are tliere any written pleadings? — There are no written pi(M(liii»t, ^ cxcejit whoa tlie jud^e, thinkinjj^ tliat it Ih an intricate case, jjrders pleaJin^rii tu be ig writin^i'. Are witnesses examined in court ? — Vivn von- in Ciifies under 10/., and iu caseh alHim 10/. their testimony is ireneraily written ; however, souietimes thev dispense with writinf the tu8timoay under i^)l, because there la iio a^tpeal froiu the Court of Kind to ;>-ive power of appointing commissionei's to extuuiue them iu the couutr;, Are thear^fumentsof the oouusel t)fi;t/ jJotrP— Thej arc. Even iu the superior coiwt ? — In both courts. Are tht^'e niiiny appeals from the superior court to tho Court of Ajipeal? — •! eoulduotl exactly U-\\ the number, but I know there is a pretty larjfe proportion. How is tho Court of Appeals constituted? — The C!)urt of Appeals is neither more nor less thiui the Executive Council of the province; every member of the Exccutin , Council is ipsojhctu a member of the Court of Appeals. Is tlio expciiso of la v» suits consirjerable ?^They are very expensive. Have you ever turned your mind to consider any mode by which that expense ini^ I ^ be lessened? — I have thought of it, but I saw that there was very little remedy, l)OC«a««l our courts are vested with the poAver of making; tariffs of fees by a law of IfeUl, asij • .' ve supposed that it wou'.a not be a very easy matter to abridpfe that power. All! tiie fees lar<;»^ ?- -We cousiderod tlicm larj^ie iu (»ur country, in proportion to tlii'l quantity of circulating medium, and in jjroportion to the price of every thing. To whom ■ do tliose fees go V — A part of the fees go to the clerks of the court, the law- yers, sheriffs :i;id bailiR's. I Are they p;i:d into a fund out of which the salaries of those pei-sons are paid ?— Notitl nil. The jud„'<>s are paid out of the public funds of the province ; there are no fees l*| judges in Canada, except in the Adujiralty Court, which have been a great subieitrfj complaint there, I Is there much distinction iu tlio mode in which you bring an action, according to whftlwl the subject of it relates to real pioperty, or whether it relates to moveables? — By tlieli«ij of Canada every man that brings an action must explain the grounds upon which heclainl either real property ur goods, or a sum vfibou»y ; he must make the persoa whom bepru-l iy.> IF ON THE CIVIL OOVEUNMENT OF CANAPA If) ujl's Uouchij ' — 1 could uot iffUtri know tho titlo ii|inii wiru-li lie claiinM, hiiiI of'tli«> tMit;>;s ho rliiiin«t, auy flu> lawn <»!' tlii' rountiy rail iit'vcr iriv« liiui any more; iiinl that tliin in tin* ilitl".'n!iir(», |iiM'lia])<), iMitwccii tli« iiatun' ot'ti'C pioi i'»Mliiiii;H in, Caiiiiila tt'i'l till* rouiitry. In luij^laini t'lcro ar(» purtinilar lorHiN of iM'tit'ii, ami a p'lior- 7 June, U-i». i\|i'oni'liirtioii is tnkfii; M'hoivuM tli<>Jnil;rc, liciii^^ltotli jml^t' and jiiiv in ('an.uU, «'aii ii«'v«-i- grive i>ii> tliinj: but what \h asktMl prccisi'ly by tlie liluiatitt', uiid tlit'ii tlio ilt'lt'iidaiit iiuiNt nivu ill tbp trromitln ol" Ms plea. 1h tit' plaint iH'at't«>rwanU enabled to ani«*iid bix >5:'''lnriitl'»ii ? — ll« iuiinI ol'tain a ptT- niiiiNiou Iroin tilt' jud^n. In hoiiip <'a.s«'N, that iit ;,riv<-ii if it is o:ily uii addeudniit tu tho atlioK, but he ciuinot cliaiijro the nature ofliis action. But «lii'ther the action relates to real or to moveablo property, the mode of briii^nn;; it is the same i* — Yes, in Kiidaiid there are Npecial foriUH uf action, we are not restricted to « precise fonn of a«;tion; init with rejfard to real property, for example, there i« a inotie otmtion, which in eMtabli,vhed by nsa3:o and uccordiii;; to tlie piiiicipicH of law, which in mich llmt if yon were not to take that form of acti«)ii you conid not Niii;ceed. It is neccs- Mtry to estKblisli n certain number of principles and facts, anri then to dri^v the c(Micln!«iou from tlicse principles, and from that results the nuccbMty uf adlii to certain forms, t ou;,'h we are not nominally restricted to forniN. Does the Kiii/d Bene • act hot 1 as a court of equity and oh a court of law ? — liy tht« |an»-islative counsellors, and t ley iire ;jcuerully supposed to have too mucli intlnenci' in the alVairs of the province, so tluit their decisions are not always supposed to be perfectly impartial ; besides there is ' • luch a contradiction in tlie Jud'ce beinj; in the mornin;^ at court, in the afternoon at the Executive Council, and on the same day at the Loj^islati ve Coitiu il, making the laws, , ordoriujf their execution, and then jiidjiinjj upon tlnise very laws, that it is impossible, at least as we suppose, that those men can be exactly judges, and jnd^'es abtne. I'erhaps in ; a country like this the same inconvenience may u »t arise from the judj^es exercisinjf tliose (Uffereut capacities, because there is the check of public opinion, and the llouiies of Parliament an- composed of an immense !uiniber; but there the jud^jes form a <,'reat pro-. , portion of t e Executive Council and oft.e Leffislativo Council, and they are the per- :' sous of t e n f'igfr, KMlniro. H Could jrou cxplaiii sfpnerally the plan whicji you proposed to adopt for that purpoj(.» — ^Thc ohject which the House of Assomhly had in view was to subdivide the farire dij^ tricts into circles which would comprise a reasonable proportion of the pcpiilatiyn in .luii«i idin, each, so that ttie judges mi^ht exorcise their Jurisdiction iu each of those subdivision^ Had the divisions any reference to tlie counties ? — It was impossible ; and the reason is, that tlie division of the counties are liable to continual chang^ea in a country where th« population au|rments witli rapidity. Upon what principle did you propose to di^'ido the country anew for the purpose of cif. cuits y — To make a subdivision accordiii;r to the population ; that is, to nx tlie scats uf ^ the jurisdiction in those places where there is a population to which it could be useful. Was the arranjrement proposed intended to be permanent ? — Tliinjrs of this kind tan. not be made permanent in a country like ours, because probably tliere «re some of thow divisions which it would be necessary to subdivide again as the population increased. Do you combine that with the other proposition you have mentioned, of examinin'r witnesses iu the country? — Exactly so; it was proposed to have the examination of wit*. nesscs taken in those very subdivisions by commisio e/fect of establis' iuu a iiew system of law in a country where it has never been in practice, would be it'ii80iiiu|f , ' upon mere supposition, upon which lam unable to answer; I know tliat the dift'ercme of courts and the difference of jurisdictions, and the diftVrence of laws, will iiecessnrily produce confusion ; u l.en it is established we must take thini;?! as the} are, but iu a coun- try where it is not establis' ed we cannot sav how it would operate.' Seeing that it is th(» fixed purpose of the Legislature to carry into eflect t' e rstablisli- ment of English law with respect to the lands in the townships, do you think the attempt had better be made by administering it in the courts as they at present stand, or by anjr other mode ? — I do not know how that could be arranged at present. Can it be (uhninistcrcd i!i the courts jis they exist at present ? — It would be very dif- ficult ; perhaps it would be proper to state, that the actions as they are broii;iht accordinj; to the rules of civil law, are vciy simple, and tljat the object can *be attained as ftilly and * . as easily as upon anv other system. I cannot imagine how it would be possible to esta- ( blish iu Canada courts in which the judge would determine one day ac^iording to the Im* of England, and another daj' according to the law of Canada, it would t'irow the practice of '^he court into the greatest confusion ; v e have already enough of confusion, wtiich has beeii created by people sometimes endeavouring^ to take tic rules of tlie law of England and to introduce them into our jurisprudence. Olf THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. )4S Has liic Canada Tenure* Act been carried in»o operation «t all in Canada? — I do not tnow what operation it cnn have at present ; it hi»s destroyed rights that liave been in D. B. Vig existence 30 or 40 years — minors rights, rij^hts of women, sheriflTs salesi, hypothifmes exe- KMnnre. cuted unon tie lands ; all these have been swept away by the Act of tt»e 6th .>f the King. ' — j — * Are tne Committee to conclude from what you have said, that the Canada Tenures ' "'""•' "*' Act has excited great discontent, and has been considered an unfortunate measure in the colony 1*— It has, certainly, \r Lower Canada created the greatest discontent, particularly iowh'at we call the Canadian population, because it destroyed at once the system which we considered to extend to the whole province, which has been acted upon for 40 years, •od evor since the concjuest. People had acquired lands in that country by titles made according to tlie formalities of the French law, which are extremely simple, and operate very weU witliout any difficulty, and against w hich there was never any complaint at all. Women had acquired rights of community, families had acquired rights accordi'ig to tlie . ■ Canadian \&^ ot descent, creditors liad lent money upon hypothiques, a species of mort- e wc have in Canada, by which those lands were supposed to be affected ; and she- 's sales of those lauds have taken place in great numbers. Now if the declaratory law, hich has been passed by the Parliament, is to take effect, all those rights are gone and destroyed, and all the sales which have taken place for 30 or 40 years are null and void ; and in the second place, it has created a great discontent among tlie Canadians, because they are acquainted with the Canadian lavhen the grantor thereof shall dwiiire tho tame to be granted in free and common soccage, the same shall be so granted, but sub- ject nevertheless to such alteration with resnect to the nature and consequence of stich tenure in free and common soccage as may ne established by any law or lava's which may he made by his Majesty, his heirs or sucessors,- by and with the advice and consent of the Leifislative Council anil Assembly of the Province." Now from this we understood, of course, tiiat if there was any alteration to be made it should be made by the Legislature of Lower Canada, who would work upon the system according to the interest of the country, and who would of course know the circumstances of the country better than those who are at a distance of 3,000 miles. I will show, in point of fact, how the thing iias operated in Canada, After this Act had been passed in England, the very Legisla- tive Council, which is composed of executive counsellors who hnve the greatest influence tiiere, and placemen who were supposed to have desired that the laws of Bugland should be introduced, were the iii*st to h^end to the Lower House a bill to introduce again our forms with regard to the transfer of property iu the townships, the law of hypothcques, and some other rules taken from our own civil law. Do you hold that the law by which property held in free and common soccage should descend, supposing that the owner dies without a will, should be tlie law which prevailg in the seigneuries, or the English law ? — I am apt to think that it would be desirable that it should remain as it was before the declaratory Act passed, that is, ti.at it should b« divi(k>d equally, according to the laws of Canada.** Wiien )0U say that discontent has arisen amongst the Canadians with respect to th« provisions of the Canada Tenures Act, are the Committee to understand that you mean that *r. 7. ' '■' t 1 \ ' • in i" .♦«; 1 ( i ,■> iU MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J'iger, ii'tf. ill iH;;--' t'le persons holdinnf lands in the toirnsbips are discontented with those provisioug, and that t ey wish t'e Canadian laws with respect to the descent of property to apply to th(>in as thev do in the seip^neuries?— I am not acquainted with the sentiments of the nia- 7 Jiii)« \U'ZH. joint) of the inhabitants of the townships ; lean say that with regard to t >e Canadiaui thc' would wish, of course, to preserve their laws of descent. Is there any t ing^ in the Canada Tenures Act w>ich has a tendency in any way to ■ interfere with the laws of descent with respect to the laud which is held by the Canadiani in the seigueuries ? — It is very much the case iudeed ; because bv this verv Act, ifthi teunroofauv land in the sei^ieuries is chan^red by arrangement with the Government, t'^at land v\ ould be regulated b » the laws of England, so that one farm would beresH- lated by thc laws of Euglaud and the next farm would be regulated by the laws of Caoa. da; and the Committee can judge what would be the consequence. -* , As no change of tenure under t at Act can be made excepting at the desire of the pro- prietor, have you any reason to imagine that anv individual wishing that cliange totaki place with regard to his own lands would be likely to complain of the alteration that would take place in consequence of it ? — Yes ; a man that might wish to make a rhanve in hia tenure would not like that his land should be placed under a new system of law ; it would operate as an obstacle to making a change iu th lUre. {Supposing t!>at no individual seeks to cliange the iiure of his land under that Act, iu V hat way does that Act effect the seigneuries, so as to deprive them of t<.at whirh * they consider an advance, namel>, the French law? — Of course if there is no ^hann there ■«an result no iuconveuience, except so far as there would be a different system in t' e courts of justice, which would create a great confusion in the ideas of the lairyen and judges. Is uot the law of tlie 6th of George 4, of this nature, t'at provided the Government, and t e seigneur holding under tlie Government, change the system of holding into fret and common soccage, tlie seigneur can force his vasf^al to change his tenure ? — No ; if ii not a compulsory power, but tliere is something which is a great obstacle in thut verr Act, but if the seigneui* were to change his title t le cultivators of the soil would Imi a riglit to ask from te seifrneur to c' ange their-tenuros too, and upon his refusal, to force him to submit to arbitration ; and this is an obstacle to tlie land being pot iu im and rammon soccage, because tlierc is no seigneur that would be disposed to accept a prici for his dues, to be paid in monev, that was uot fixed by himself. Has the law been acted upon at all in the seigueuries ? — I only know of two cases vhm application has been made to Government for a change, aud I think tl)at the arran|;:ement y has JU}\ been concluded. Are there a great number of Canadians who reside in the townships ? — A great number iu some townships, aud there would be a much gi-eatcr number if tiicility had beengiTei for their settlement. ON THE CIVIL OOVERNMEKT OF CANADA. < U5 Martis, 10*. die Juttii, 1828. £y descent and partly a property acquired during marria^^e, the wife would be entitled to her dower out of the one, and to her share in the communaute in the other ? — Exactly. Suppose he makes a will, what power has he over, first of all, the land which comes to kirn by descent, and secondly, that which is acquired during marriage ? — He has the right to dispose of all the property which belongs to nim, whether by descent, or whether it if hispartof the comwunau/e, and to bequeath it in any manner he pleases, subject never- theless to the stipulation of the marriage contract. That is to say, ifhe has property wluch> belonged to him previous to the marriage, h« can bequeath the whole of it as he pleases ? — Y^s. With respect to that which he acquired subsequently to the marriage, he can only dis- pose of one half of it? — Yes, as well as ofthatacouired to bim by succession. Any real property which comes to either man or wife by succession they have respectively a right to disposeof ; any such reid property which comes by inheritance to the wife, or to the has- band during the marriage, never enters into che communaute, unless there is a particular T stipulatto* '. *, 1 1 1 I I" 1 I 'tN ( 1'4 14^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE fiEFORfi SfiLfeGT? COatSIITTEE J) B. Viger, Esquire. i#: stipulation to that effect ia the contract of marriage ; of course either the man or the wife has a right to dispose of that by tlieir willas they please. t Supposing a person marries, and that during the existence of the marriage he makes a 10 June 1828. considerable fortune ; supposing further, that he has a child by the marriage, who dies in the lifetime of the father and mother ; then suppose the mother dies during the lifetime of the husband, what becomes of her share in i\\e commufiaute? — Hers' 'are goes to her own ^ relations, except that there is hardly a contract of marriage jn t^hich there is not a stipu. lation that they shall, if there are BO' chUdrea of the marnag«y enjoy the. property dunng their life, to tlieexclu8i<>n of the relations of either party. But if no such contract exists, the law is as you state ^•— The communauti b divitied, and the half of it goes to the relations of either husband or wife. Supposing a person in possession of an estate is. anxious to selH^ what iathemodo of hii conveying it to the person who is to purchase it ? — The conjxact is always passed a«Gonl. ingto the laws of our country, before two notaries, or one notary, aad. two witiiestM) for the form of these contracts are known to every notary in Canada. Iftiiero are no. parti, cular circumstances which may require special stipulations it is not usotssaiy ta ttsvei out of those forms. Is it a very short deed ?•— Pretty short, it generally conteins about thvte pages <>£ ca» ftion folio paper. Does it contain any recital of the formsr title, how it came tOit^e persoon that sella ?— It does generally ; though it is not essential' to the form- of the deed at its vafidify that it should be so ; there are people that will sella farm- as.belongiag to t^em^. wdthout maa* tioning any thing else ; but, generally speaking, it is entered, itot as mattes' o£ n«oe8«it>, hut as matter of co»ve»ienoCj and^ in- order that the penco' may know tiio parties km whom the estate came. How does the purchaser satisfy himself' that the'peisen< wIio-sellB ha* a giOod- tkls ta sell, and also that the estate is unencumbered ?'^That depends-upon hi8-]Hiidence, and partiimi> larly upon the good advice that he< receives eitherfremthv notary himaelfoB fiiomaiiiwy^F; torexample,if youweretooonsulta'geHtleman iaCauadaiaboutapurchase which you«Rat> ed to make, the lawyer would of course, before allowing the deed to be passed, requin communication of t'le title of that property, nould alsorequtretaknonr whether the veudor was married or not, v hether there existed ^ dower upon that estate or not ; of course tlw is very easy. I must besides observe, the laws of our country with regard to prescription are generally pretty simple ; ten years possession, with a good title, where the pai'ties aw legally present in the province, are sufficient to operate prescription in favour of tlie buyer. Twenty years are necessary to prescribe against ^sentees; I must add, t'.at a person must be of age, and capable of exercising his rights, for prescription to operate against him. Generally speaking, thirty years prescription is sufficient to cover some dif- ficulties in a title in due form, wi ich has no radical defect. A man could not acquire by prescription a fiu-m, or any other real property, if his title was not a real bond Jide sale ; if^ for example, he had been a- tenant » ith a lease, he could not prescribe agHiiiiit kit ' o«n title; but if the title is good, generally speakiuuf, a prescription will operiite iii lii« lavour after thirty years. Now the la« yer considering these circumstances, and perbiu some others, v ould easilv find M'hether the man who sells can give a good title. Then I .ow are you satisfied that a good title is produced, either for ten > ears or tor t« enty years, or for thirty years, as the case may be? — It would depend upon particuk circumstances ; you must examine whether there are absentees, and there are miuors, or other persons incapable of exercising their rights ; all this is very easy IVir a man of exp rience, but it would be difficult to explain it to persons not exactly acquainted viththtl principals of oiur law ; all ttiat I can state upon that subject is) that I have been a little | more than thirty > ears in practice, and have given a good' deal of advice upon questiuiisctf j thi»8ort. I do not think I ever bad any complaint by any persons m tiia title is denJireii ; it ill ON 'TOE CIVIL GOVERNMEin' OF CANADA. !« {k fcry cMy to y4)eople «ho understand the hws of the Und, they are very simple thhiffs ; but ^, ' - . , iBittt«oofee8 t^iat a stranger coming to Canada may be anbjected to some little dilBcalties, lo Junt isas: as is the ease in any other ootmtry. I have a |Mrtioular knowledge thnt two or three years 1^ an accident happened to a stranger ; he bought a farm, and was told by tome persons Ihst there was a dower upon it, or some such encumbrance, tbough the person who spoke tohiB was not eonversant in the law ; I think he was a, common former ; he informed him tff ^ risk he iaoarred in buying that property ; the buyer would not listen to him, he \fW^ the lam, and be experienced what eveiy imprudent man would in that case, he lost fa not real pr oy e ily in Canada sutgect to all, what are in this country called, simple ovirtnct debts, or a persen borrowing money ?-~-Ef0ry species of property, real or por^ maal, may beseizeaandsold forthesatisfiietionofaju^^^iDeiit, wha^ver maybe the na* turr ef t!he debt. What is the form in which a person in cifietl, imd that is fiiificient to give him the right to be paid out of the proceeds of the retU ertirte, before any other who is not anterior to him in iijfpothemte : aoctrding to our maxim «f lawinthis ease, ptftior feT;ipore/)ohorjlitre, the person that has the first kgpatheque has tke praferenoc to the money which is raiaed by 1^ (decrit) sheriff's nde, and then in sue* Msaion «iper) liypotheeary creditor. 6flppemBgiifwrsen-berro««li sum ofmeney upon bis bond, does that carry hypothe- Tscf— ^Itdoes "not, unless execttted before a notary. Most itha^ relennroeto'the estate ? — That is not necessary, provided it is passed be- fcre a notny, vljhat carries hy iteelf the right of hypoihique. Then a "person whos^wnestirte, wismngto deceive the pnrohaser, might keep back tbese hffpmKiqueti^ — Yes ; midlhHt is the rf(with that exactitude andtechnics^y of expression which would be desirable. I will endeareor to Sketch tlie sitmitien and some of the oirctnustances of Lower Canada as may beoooaected with this subject. I remember, l^at some years ago there was a great deal sriH m Lower Canada about this matter ; alter examination it was found that the coimtry in its aotaal situation did not admit ef estalblishing a registration ; that was out of the (jHcstioa ; but what I should cdl a bureau de corutrvaHon fThypothegues. After discus* SHm with fl;eir debtor, though he be not a merchant, after seizing and selling every species of property which be- ' longs to him, and to keep him there as long as he does not pay the debt. Before that time this rig >t of taking the body was not allowed, except between merchants and merchanti, and in some other cases. By an interpretation which has been given to that ordinance, which I do not pretend to justify, it has beed understood that the cessio bonorum, which V * is a part of the law of Lower Canada, had been abolished by that ordinance of 1785. I vouid say, that before adopting any such law for the establishment of bureaux de cower- vationrthypoihequesy it would be first necessary to re-establish the ce««io donorum;, be- cause I look upon our code at present to be really barbarous ; and t\^ nas attempted in the Hou^e of Assembly of Lower Canada repeatedly by bills sent to the LegisUtire , Council, " hich were not passed. It would be besides necessary to establish sub-^visions of the districts to place these bureaux de eohservation d'hypothenuea in such places that it would be of easy access, and not too expensive for the people of those different sub-divi- sions to register t' e deeds which would -carry hypotheque. One of the objects of iMtssinga bill for ameliorating the system of the administration of justice, and creating sub-oivisioiu. of the districts for that purpose, was at the same time to pave the way for future amelio ' rations of this desoriptiou, and others. It nould then be possible, if the Legislature thought that it was necessary to establish those bureaux de conservation cThypothcques, to fix them in the very o^ces of t'le courts which would be established iu the circuits. There would be besides a gi'eat facility of establishing those bureaux de conservation ^hf- pothcffues by enforcing the execution of the law of t*'.e land, which is absolutely neglected, and obli^nng besides, notaries to keep double registei'&of the acts they pass every year, and to deposit one of the duplicates of tne register in those offices. Tois v ould .cost hardly any thing to the province ; it would add but very little to the expense of passing notarial acts, and would serve all the purposes of the bureaux de conservation d'hypothegues, as it would be necessary to establish them in our province if they were supposed to be desirable; ,' ' bnt before doing that, it would be necesf^ary to re-establish the cessto bonorum, and in that oaseit would be necessary to abolish the right of taking the body in execution in maoT " cases. I must observe here the very great difference between the laws of England and the . laws of Canada upon a particular point. The groat necessity of these registry bills in provinces where the laws of England are in force, is, that there is no record of sales as with us. Notaries are, by the laws of the land, obliged to keep the original 'act of the sale, and they only deliver copies ; every body has a right to get a copy of the Act, provided that he has an interest iu it. In provinces, where the laws of England pre> vail, on the contrary, the original remains with tl>e buyer, tliat makes it necessary, in or- der to know the proprietor, that there should be a public office wliere. such sales should be recorded. You probably are aware that in Scotland, where the law is a mixture of the feudal law ,-^. • and the Roman law as in Canada, they have a perfect system of registration ? — Yes ; I do not exacly know the principles upon which they are established, but they have the «*flO bonorum. In our country, before we adopt this system we si^ould take means of ameliora- ting our laws, re-eHtablish the cessio bonorum, and subdivide the country. I ought to ob- serve besides, that for one deed which tiiere is to register in a country like England, «e have a thousand that would require to be registered. Now, if a man was to come, from a disfancc of 90 miles to register a deed for a lot of land which is m orth 20/., or an hypolU- que for Ml., it would be the most cruel thing imaginable. Therefore, if we were to esta- blish register offices, or rather bureaux de conservation d'hypotheque.s, we should at least «atablish them in such a manner tliat they would not be a burden to the people, and that tha ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 149 thela'' might protect all persons eauall^. In case this establishment was to take place, it n » y would be necessary, as I. said, to subdivide the districts into smaller circles, that we mi^bt ' ^Muiref * finally establish those hurtavx de conservation cTht/potheques in the places wliere the rnnrtB^ a _ ' , ^ would be held. '' 10 June 1828. Has ther« been any difficulty attending the re^stration of real property in the United States ?— I cannot answer with regard to the United States. Does the law you have stated to apply to the communaute apply equally to persons who have been married in England and who have settled in Canada, and who had after they got to Canada realized property in Canada ; is it a case that often happens ? — That is a question of great difficulty, embracing a vast number of considerations even of public law. It has not, to my knowledn^, been the subject of direct discussion ; yet in Ca- nada, I know that some questions of this description were agitated with regard to persons who bad married in the United States. ' I see very little difficulty with regard to a man who marries in the States, because, if I understand public law well, and it seems to me to be consistent with the principles of sound policy, no foreigner has a right to avail himself of the lawH of his o^rn country with r^fard to matters of real property. The real property must be fu'jject to the laws of the land. It would be very different with regard to an Englishman, be- cause being subject to the same empire, we would be inclined to suppose tliat he must have reciprocal rights. Mv reason for saying so is, that it was admitted as a principle of gene- ral equity and public law in France, that when a man living under a particular coutume married, that coutume was the law which was to regulate his property ; he was supposed to coutiact his marriage with the intention that the efttii; of his marriage w ould apply to his property according to the law of the land where he had made the contract, liow if this principle was adopted in Canada, we might suppose tliat an Englishman' who married with the intention that all the property which he acquired in our part of the empire would be regulated according to the laws of the country in which he contracted the marriage, and we might further suppose, that this privilege might be clauned reciprocally in different parts of the empire. Do your observations apply equally to the two sorts of real property you*have described to exist in Canada, except sa far as you said they differed ? — Yes. Has the effect of the law of descent been to divide the property into a great number of insali divisions ? — It has in some cases ; but I am just going to make here an observation which hns been made by Baron de Stael in his late Letters in England upon this very suli- ject If I remember well, hesa>'8,that in France, in spite of the law as it is, by which an equal division takes place among the children, it seems that property has a tendency ra- ther to accumulate. Since some years in Canada, I have noticea that the same sub-divi- lious of real property have not taken place that did formerly. First, people make wills, and very oftcu prevent divisions taking place. Farmers, particularly, generally divide their reid property during their lifetime ; if they have many farms they give a farm to each of their children ; if only one, they generally choose one of the children to whom this property is given ; that seems to be about the general practice at present in Canada. Where a seigneury descends according to your law, does it not multiply superiors to the vassal V — It has, in some cases ; but of late years the divisions of seigneuries estates has decreased almost in the same proportion as the divisions of other estates, as mentioned in my last answer. Then.ia point of fact, the vassal may, under your law, be obliged to hold under many superiors ? — The Committee are pei'!in])8 not aware that what is called feudal law in Ca- . sada ha» no precise analogy with what is called feudal law on this side of the Atlantic In Canada the land is conceded to the farmer generally for a very small annual rent, the far- mer pays this annual rent, and there is an end of all duties to his seigneur, this is in the nature of a quit-^rent. (ienerally speaking, the only obligation which is imposed upon him, » besides his going to the mill of his seigneur to have his n heat ;;roiind there, and when ho sells his property the buyer is obliji^ed to pay lods et ventes, a mutation fine equal to one- , ; twelfth part of the value of it ; these are about all the feudal duties to which our cultiva-, tors are generally liable. ■* - So that a vassal is not subject to vexation by having a variety of superiors ?-^ Not the le8«t ; it has little or no. effect upon the vassal. With regard to the law within the townships; you stated that in your opinion the Act of i: i * I it; is. 4i0 MINUTES OF EVayEV€B fiEFOfRE fiOSLBCT tX)MMITTEE I! !! •i;*- .177ite of the praotioeaMd «f iChe have4i«eB (oU ^dut'Miatis the <«ase, though I baivenotseen the deeds. ll»v« theoouBlsonaB!to thelaw tlmtemists wdtiiinthe «}iipa, ii4tetheria«ase«f:aAe»on4)rinf artestate his property is to be divided accerdiif 4o oae Jaw or the other ?— I do aotKBOw any dawot deoisMn ^viog been i^vea upon tte ^int in our oourts of iustsee. There is one foot ihart st/ikes as proving their opinion, ad ,14; is iite slieriCs sales, smd actions m e s pe o taqg real property dunnf more than 40 yean in .the townships ; if the law of E^kmd are really the laws «f tiw townshipii,aU thesesalea of Mjoiavse would •ImsuU and iroMl ; because, if I «nderstaad tbe laws of jEoglond upon this silli9eot,«eaL property oannot be arid j;Aai; you can aeiae 'Hk revoaue, but not sell the Aa»d;»t«e)f b^eNectttioni and with rempd 4o antiona, our aotioBS pStitoine, poaee8toire,K •others relative to real prcpertgr, could aot wpf^ ta estates goveraed by the laws ef Eb< fteod. Have those sales continued since the Declaratory Act of Oeo. 4. ?— ¥e8. ¥oH staAedibattheaMdeof eonveyaaoe, aooordkUirto the EofluA forms, insmacb more expensive than that which iprevaflsaooordvar to the Freadifarais? — 8* I undentui dFrom &H ^juarters I andf reooUeot that it wasa swjeotofperticularattention when tiiel^' J>i.<«Iative llooBoil sent to us biUs to ohanve the late >)aw, 6 Oeo. 4, which the Imperial Pn- iameut had passed ii^m«i tfaalt aul^eot ; m oourae wemade some inquiry about it, and it m found, from aD inloraiatian, that it was more eocpenaive ; indeed the double deed, which k ■to l)e madeacoordiugtoEiUfUsh Jorass, and double actions, create Mopensef^ n^eremby . 4^ laws of Oanada one deed aad one action are sufficient. Do vou ^pipea to know why tbejr prefemed that mode of conveyance by lease and n- iease r— It would be very diffiietdt iwr me to explain. Suppesiug youiliadan Eai^ish deed of «ne page, should yoa complain of that, (a fan ofdeeabemff ghown to ^ WitneesJ f-^By no' means ; I have been informed that thej hare admitted such form in Upper Cuiada, uid in some of the United States ; but it was b^ ebangiag the Ibnus of conveyance ; that is very simple I must oenfess, but it does not sfH^ia to me tbati^is would be aufficient in Canada ; 1 would not like qiute so simple a foni, bcuause, though our forms are veiy simfdCfby the laws of Canada we are aUiged to deaoihc tlie property, and be more accurate in many other respects ; even in our forms, simian tii«y are, there are a great many things which are entered wliich arto not pemctly ueceflsar >. i will state some words wfaioa are to be found in all our contracts, we geB^ ndly make me of this word on the part of the seller, that he ob%«8 himself to guarantee ,*br the laws of the «ottntry that is not necessary, every man that sells is aappoaed to be ^^ gei to (guarantee, and yet by mere habit tiiii stipulation is entered In aU tjie deeds ; I , could eOe a number of words of that kind which are quite useless, aad which might be d» p«Fu»ed with i but the forms are generallw printed beforehand, and of oonna the notaria will stick to them as a mere matter of haUt. Do yoa bappea to know wheUier of late the land has descended according to free and common soccaffe within the townships, or according to the Canadian iMrP^-rdo not know what ibas passed upon this subjoctlatdy in the towaabips, since the pnssing of the Deoian- tory Act, whicli I have mentioned. I should have added in my preoeding ail the advantages of t)*.e modifying nsteas, as they l:ave adopted it inVpper Canada and in ttie United i^tatea, with regard to the transfer of real property, only itis perhaps regu- kted n bTi THiE CIVIL fiOVEUNMENT OF CANADA lAi htidiBortpracwelyii^tfar aysteMB of uivU.iiurisprivUnoe in C)Miad»; w« hitvtt all the a I- j). n. ringr, vantafw wnioh thsv have tfutdtNivouiHNtW j^et by adoptui^f new fopuu ditfttnaut i'mm those Etqu're. vhicbareiwedinEaglautL , ^^ , iks the la>* no^ staudls ane yeu of opjaiou that if aa individual dittd h»KUH^ laiidit iii lu Junv, IMC. free and oomoioa 8ocoag;» within the towotthif^fi, th«y wttuld ^o to lii« vAtkml mhi V — U' thu AtitoC ParikHoeiilr is t» be executed I 8 ould 8U|»[HMe iA would bo sow Tbe auly dilKcultv wiiiebti>erei»ia1^iaBUittec iHytliat)toubaveiiMiuydi4«reut8|t«cie8 (»t'8iicueHH<04iMia Eu> glgadi. I andentaod that iu Eo;;laua there are twine uouatieii in whi«tli an equal divibiou ^ of MMperty take* place aouNi^ ehildrea. Uttwever, it i», t ttiiotlld: KuppoMe, nuire i-iMUi- ■M te see tbr whole of the real estate go t» the eldest sou- ; and suppose tliat the DecltiDa- toiiy' Aet would be uuderstoodl ia this way; ttiat tiut lauded [»ropurty would go tottie «>ldf«t Hitherto that has not been uadersteod ?-~It was understood that a dsviMoa took place aeooidias; to the LiMra of Canada ; and it is g0iuatdlv the mauaer iu wliich the lawn ot iIvm- cent have been made, evea. in the United State«^ by ehaugiu^ tbetr former HyMteni. Tiie- pntjudiceissomttohiin favour of this species of desceut, that in Upper Canada the House' of AasemUv. has passed^ within a few \ ears ^a»tf two or three bills suvvesHivfl . to establit^h ttatiaw ofeqaak divisioa between tlio cliikhwu ; but the Legislative Council n^jeuted thoite U11& . . If heMteforelaiidflia> the townships, altbuu<;h held in free and common 80ccnj;re, haver pMwd from the fether to the children under the laws prevailiuj; in Lower Caiutda^ and' ' '- mpponog ttuii* according to> the statute which has lately passed, the Eni^linh law is now t» appqrthem, woutd-it not beneeessary to pass an Act iu order to quiet existiu|r titles ; timt i« to aay, in oi*der to- g^ve them someassuraniMi with respect to titles thut have been derived from geaseation to sienwation under tlie Freni^h law ? — Of course it would be necessary ; it is an Aet that mi(mt be easily passed in Lower Canada ; and in the very Act of the Inine- risl Parliament^, whirch is declaratory, it is pastieularly enacted, that the Provinuial Le> mlatare may change and alter the liur, and- indeed it wag respeoting that very clausu wbiuh 1 oimd from the A«t of 1791. It waa supoosed that those who solicited the piwsing^oli' tbst law by tlie British Parliament^ saw- probably that there weiUid be some difficulty iu its exscutioa ; and it is perhajps for that reason that t^iey have added a provisiou, that the Pjr-t tiament of Lower Canada may change, alter, aud modity it, so as to luuke it convcuieiit i\»s Lower Canada. HiU you. be j;:ooid enough to poiut oat to the Committee tliat clause- in the A(;t of 1 791 which induced the Cauadiaus to. believe that the English law was uot the law of the town- ihips ? — It is not in consequence of the express enactiueut which is to be found in the 'i^id elause of that Act, that the Canadiajis M-erc iudiiued to believe thut the laws of England were not the laws of the towuttlups, but we cousidered that what is to be found iu that elause afforded an additioual rvason to iuteri^rut 4be Act of 1774 us wo did. We thought ^; that from the general rules of interpretation uf iHWs of a publicnature, although the words mig;bt imply something iu contradiction to the principles which the iaw seeins to intend to l^r down, as all public laws should be iuterprtited rather according to the intention of the te^slature than the OEdiiiacy gr^uxunatical ntcauiiig of words, it was thought that the Government of England did not intend to establis i two different s. stems of law in the same country, and particularly one for peisous iu the townships and another for real property; because if the French lews were generalli introduced in tl>e country, that ex-« eeption with regard to the townships u'ould apply only to real pro|)erty, not to persons^ so that there would be one system of law for persons, and another system of law for real pro- perty ; hut supposing even that this was not the intention of the Lp<^slature at the time, aa error which has been fallen into bv' every body in Canada should certmnly be looked upou at least a^ reftpechdile. This would be a case for saying error communiifacit juSt no in- OMtveuieuoe could arise with regai^ to real property in Canada from t'at interpretation ; eu' law is^simple and well defined, and such as every body would prefer to the system of nal prop^r^, andtrans&r, as it exists in. En^nd. t do not pretend to be a judge of the im of EtOgmnd, but I will take the opini^^u of every English writer vpon the subject. I am lore that any body wlio will take the trouble of examining with attention the principle* «f oar law with re^d to real property, %riU see that there can be very little inconvenienco.- aiiamg out of this system. Is it right then, whep that interpretation has been given ya it. (i(ir40y!«iur8, when the whole kystem of the country is established upon it, that we should karn < I H ' I if- '■ I y 1 ;< Tl f I if 'f \&i MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE lOrf .:it 1«SW. D. li. Figer, learnfrom the other side of the Atlantic that the law has been chaiijBfcd? Another rnum Etqutre. for which the Lower Canadians must be supposed to think that they have a right to thWr ■" ^— — ^ own laws in those lands which were open to their own indnstry, was, that the greatest niiin- ber of the people who have come to settle in those lands were foreinteni; and it does not appear rijfiit tliat those Canadians who have before and since been call to defend their coud< try in war, and to defend those institutions which are dear to them, should be deprived oftbc advantaje^ which they can derive from the knowledge of their own institutions in tlieirowo country. The Committee will observe besides, that after the conquest a proclamation «ai issued by the King, which went iipoii the supposition that the conquest had the effect of dn-. troying the laws of Canada. After an examination, it' was found that this was not consouaot with thcpiinciples of public law between civilized nations ; that a conquest could have no such effect ; that by tno conquest allegiance only changed ; but tliat propert;^ remained, and of course the laws, which are t!»e saft^ard to that property, and witDOUt which it could never be kept ; and finally, this proclnmatioA was looked upon as a nullity. It is to be n- marked furtner, that even in the Act of 1771 there is a particular stipulation vnith reg^nrd to this subject. In the Act of 1774, c. 83, it is. declared,, lu the 4th section. " And whereu the provisions made by the said proclamation have been found inapplicable to the state and circumstances of the said province, the inhabitants whereof amounted, at the conquest, to above 65,000 persons, professing the religion of the Church of Rome, and enjoying au e». tablished form of constitution and system of laws, by which their persons and property had been protected, governed and ordered, for along series of years from t^e first establiKhment of the said province of Canada." In the fifth section it is enacted, " that the inhabitant* may profess the Romish religion ;", and in tlie 8th section it is enacted, " that in matters of controversy relative to property add civil rights, resort shall be had to the laws of Canada as the rule for decision of the same ; and all causes shall, with respect to such property and rights, be determined agreeab^ to the said laws and customs of Canada, until they shall be varied or altered bv any ordinances passed in the said province." Now the 10th clause goes to say tliat this shall not extend to lands conceded by His Majesty in free and common see- cage ; but previous to that the seigneurial rights are of course kept up upon property. Now it was understood at that time that this exception could relate only' to the encuiu« brances with which, by the feudal laws, those lands might be charged, but that it did not ap- ply tp the ordinary laws which affect every citizen ; it was not understood that the property m the townships should be governed by another system in that respect ; we could never imagine that we were to be shut out from the townships by the want of knowledge of the system of laws with which we were about to be affected in entering those townships ; that the Government meant to cstablislt two systems of law in the same 'conntry, and to establish the confusion that would result from such a division in the province ; and I understand that it was the opinion of some of the best lawyers in England, who have been consulted on the sub- ject, tl:at this exception could not be understood in adifferent way from what I have stated; but even supposing it had been an error, when an error of that kind has been so long in existence in a country, would 1 not have reason to say, as I have already observed, that er- ror communis Jiacis jus. If the conduct of every body was founded upon tbis kind of error^ we might say, in a case of this kind, optima interpres legum usus et consuttudo. Will you read the 43d clause of the 31st of Geo. the 3d, and state whether it is not evident by that clause of the 31st of Geoi^e the 3d, that it was the deliberate intention of Parlia- ment to establish two s ^ stems of tenure of property in C&nada, namely, that they did not intend to abolish the seigneuries, and that they did intend to establish the system of free and common soccage? — 'From tliis very Act I would probably come to a very different con- clusion, because the free and common soccage is no more nor less than a tenure known in our laws ; wliat is the free and common soccage tenure but the^'onc aleu f Will vou explain what the^J-anc aleu is ? — The franc aleu is the land which is subject to no kind of dues ; there are two sorts of franc aim, the firanc altu noble and the franc aleu roturier ; i\\e franc aleu noble is divided as fiefs, and thematic aku roturitr is divided as rotures. All the advantages and privileges which attend the free and common soccage we attain -by t^ef'anc aleu, and that is what we understood (b be the species of tenure which the Parliament of England wanted to introduce. Moreover if there was any change to take place in the opinions of the public, or of the judges, or in the practice of the courts upon this tiubjeot, I would ask, who ouhbt to have bad the power of making such anal- ' • teration; ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. IA9 T reason t to their tt>8t ntiiD* doea not leir couD* ivod ofthe t tlieirown nation vu 'cct of in- consouaot Id have no ' remained, ch it could is to be re- nitli regard nd wlierew le state and mquest, to lying au e»- roperty had tamiKhment inhabitanu a matters of 8 of Canada roperty and ;hey Khim be 1 clause goes ommon hoc* n property. the encuu- did not ap« le property jould never idge of th< , thsttht itablishthe Istand that it on thesub- lavc stated; so long in [ved, that gr- ind of eiTor^ 1 not evident of Parlia- ley did not tem of free [fferent con- known tn Ih is subject Id the franc \r is divided tton soccage of tenure [ say change |)f the courts fguchanJ' teration ; teration ; when besides the general power of making In^a vested in the liegislaturo of Lower j) ji^ ff^^^ Canada, tl^orc is this particular provision in the 43d section of the Act, which gives the Enquiry, free snd common 80cca;,'e tenure, " subject nevertheless to such altertftions, with respect » - -^■. , — to the nature and (H)U8equence8 of such tenure of free and common soccnge, as may be es* 10 June nt>M. taiilirihcd by any law or laws which may be made by His Majesty, his hoirn or succemors, liyau'l with the advice aud coasent of tlie Legixlative Council and Assembly of the Pro- Tince." If wo are to- take the very words of this law, we must infer that it was the Par- liament of Lower Canada who wore to examine and to decide whether the judges had mis- construed the law, and to establish rules according to the power w.iich had been given to tiiem. , J' H:»8 any Act, originating in the Assembly of Canada, received the Royal Assent, which rpguiatcsor interferes in any way wit) the English law of property as applicable to land l:eld in free kikI common socrage ^-^As there waj no doubt aboat this question, there was never any mention in our Legislature about it, that I know. When was the first doubt raised upon this question, whether the Englisih Law was to pre- vail in the townships or not? — It is not possible tor me to sav. Is it long ago ttiat t'>e question was raised ?— Yes ; I have heard many things said long 8*0, but the proceedings in the courts of Justice and the general practice continued iu tht larac way. Did t :e courts of justice ever c^me to a decision that the English law did not prevail in t'le townships ? — I am not aware of any direct decision upon tue subject ; bnt the practice of the courts was such, that it was impossible they could nave acted in the manner in which titeyhavc if they bad supposed tlmt the laws of England were the laws in force in the towu- i' ins. what has been practically the course of inheritance in the townships for the last forty Yfurs? — If I were to speak from mv personal knowledge of one uarticiilar case, I would say that an immense property, which is in the township of Hull, nns been divided after tho death of a woman according to the laws of Canada,- and all the Acts have been passed ac- rordingto the laws of (-'anaaa,the rights of communauti acknowledged, and the division made bet^'een toe father and the children, and I know tlie notary who has done the wi ole ; but as I have very little practice in the townships for many } ears, I have not been very attentiv* to that subject. Do \on conceive that the rights of primogeniture have never lieen acted upon uniformly in the township since the conquest ?— As far as my knowledge goes I know it was not con-' sidered to apply to the townships Your attention has been called to the 43d clause of the Act of 1791, in which it is provi- ded, that in all cases for the future, within the province of Lower Canada, whenever grant* , arc made it shall be at the option of the grantee whether they are made according to the , French la^ or to the English law of free and common soccage; are youornot aware that everj mat that has since been made has, in point of fact, been made according to the English kw of free and common soccage ? — 1 understand that they were made in free and common' soccaire ; and I have already said that we understood this free and common soccage to be like the franc aleu, t!'>at it freed the land from feudal incumbrances, but that tlicy were to ! be governed by tho otiier laws of the country, tliat it exonerated those lands from the feu- . dal incumbrances, and went no further. Are the Committee then to understand that the interpretation which has been put in Lower Canada upon the 43d clause of the Act of 1791, is not that the free and common : Mccage there alluded to was the free and common soccage in use in England, but the frane ' .' a/eu gyatem ofthe French law ? — It was understood that it was a free tenure, which wbi not liable to any of the feudal burthens imposed by our own laws either en fief or roture, and of course we considered it a franc aleu, so far that it paid no rents or dues, but with reg^u^ to succession, sale and other law6 w^ich relate to property, we considered that those land*' <'ere liable to the civil la-^ s ofthe country as they are received and acknowledged in Lower Canada. Tl\at was the common opinion, and as I have said already, this opinion secnu to |Uie as even confirmed by the very Act itself of 1791 ; because the Legislature of Lower ' - Canada is specifically empowered to make regulations with regard to that tenure,^ and it 'IS therefore for them to see whether the judges gave a right and faithful interpretation of e Act of 1791., * U Yon 111 ilr- 1 ; rm * <(l ■tfi 154 MINTTB8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /). n '.sqiArtt. • You were undentond to itnte that it wm the duty of the Leffislatiire of Lower Canada f(» watch the judffmcntH of the coiirta, and that if thoaecoiirtH miHCOUMtruedthelawof 1791 it ^ would be tlidr duty tD check that miMConatructioii. You havp aUo Mated, that you tr* iilfer...^: i 10 Jimt iHin. not aware of there bmu)(iuiy record of any jud((iQent of the courtain Lower Canada, dcridiiif one way or another as to the law that prevailed in t >« totvntrhipit; how then, under tlmi circurastancefl, could tlie Lecittlative Asaemblf have pnv upportuuity of conaiderin(|^ tlwi point V— I I ttvc HtiUed, that I was not aware that atiy.iu(lerty byth# sheriff for 40 ycarH ; we have been Heizmsf property, and an imnieniie .juantity of tbeiie laodi have been sold by the Slieriff, and have become the property of the ((entleinen that boufrht at t 086 K.ilcN. 'Wit'i regard to Muccesvions [ have a Know ed((e that tutelles have bfoo made accordinigr to tSe laws o** Canada, and that a diviniDn of property had baen made bf. tween man and wife in the townHliipH. I know tliat diviaionH o( property have taken pl«cf according to the laws qf Ciiuada, after bein^ nanctioned in 84»ine measure by the jud^n, before whom all elections of <«/<;//«« are made, with t« advice of parents, accordin^f to tli« fornulitiesi prescribed by writers of our country. Sales have n<»tonlv been made, as I bv« stated, accordinjr to our forms, but actions instituted and determined on those sales and pro- secuted iuv>u>jal>ly accoi'ding to the forms prescribed by our laws. I <;ould state a great manj other subjects ot'^ daily practice, by w ivii it \utain8 the following words ! " Subjrct nevertheless to such altorrttions with respect to- the nature and consequences of suchttn* lire of free and common Hoc<-age as may be established hy any law or law> which maybe made by- His Majesty, his heirs or successors, by and with the advice and consent of tbi Legislative Council aud Assembly of the Province." Do you understand any thing mora by that clause, t an t lat it is opei^to the Legislature of Lower Canada, with the conicnt of the Crown, to muke any alteration in the la- s of property ?— The manner in which ti>ii U inserted there shows that probable the Parliament must have meant a little morethu ^ ordinary intention of conferring upon the Parliament of Lower Canada the po^-er of qiaking laws ; and my reason for saying so is this, it wa» nut necessary to repeat that io this particular article the general entu;tnient of the law was, that the t^arliament establii^S edin Lower Canada at t .at time was vested wit!) t c power of making laws for the interior of that country upon every subject. Now it is certainly a presumption in favour of my iii< t«rprotation, that t e Parliament of England s ould > ave thoi ght it necessary iu insert thii clause, after having given a general power of making laws, which certainly ^ust have com- prised the right oi making laws for t at part of t e country wide was to be in free aud common soccago. The Act even goes further, and after saying that tie government of His Majesty will have aright toconce.de lands in free and common soccage, they say, as it were, to the Legislature of Lower Canada, " we ' ><*• al ' giv^n you tire general 8up<'r- iutendence over all the country, but even v t^rf le lands art granted in free and comuioii soccage- you t«illbe parti<;ularl\ the jii ' /i« effect wl'ich this species of tenure »ill have;" and lam §ure that any gentlen Lower (.'ana^' uust have thought that then was something in tl.is expression whic^ iion added to ti. common gencru e\pre! which «ere used, were intended to give i., 'he Lo.islature of Lower Canada the power of legislation, in ])articulai* with respect to those la ds. But even supj>osing that this ponrr had opt been given, would it npt be right that tite Legislature of Lower Canada sbonlil rather I ave tms power than the Parliament of England 'i Were we to v impose, when thii Act of 1701 was given to us, that the Legislature of England Mould lualve la^'s withunt K'vingany notification tp the proviucf df Lower Canada with regard to 'subjects of interior gislation ? No^ we know very well that the Parliament of England has the inperiuteiHl- •ing power pyer all the colonies, and I might say to ttte Committee, that if they had berq present at some of the disciusions which have takken place in Low er (^auada, they >voul^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 155 iM how far ve rely upon iti power for protoction, an well m wa arknowlod/o It with HuhiniH- lion; but it IH well uiidtfratooil, I think, Niiice thH oolouieH have l»«><;omo more advanced, t<»t tboy are not to be tieatrd ax tliey were Humt'tiinus of nei'esxity when in their intiint'V. How could wesuppone thentliiitalawofthi.H kind would he piisi^ed in thin Parli;inii>nt with- out the province beinjf aware of what WON to he the rcNult of that law? Supposing wt> liiwl interpreted the law in a manner different from what tie Piirliamont h.td interpreted, have not wu thori^rht even of repealin;j^ Aotriof Parliament V Do not we «'h:uij;e every lUy the law'N of England in ('anada ? In not the criminal law, hh it stood in 1774, altered nvri day in our provinrial Parliament ? NolnHly could deny that tlie Parliament of Lower I'tiniidahada ri^nttoleifialate upon theHeHuhjectti ; aud att we had even a Hpecial ri:; it of inukinf( alterations with re|pird to that particular Hubject, weniie tiailv practice in all the Uritinh colonies to niter and modify t e lawH of luiyland, such an tlicv are eHtabliMhec! by 8tutute8, or by common law in En^rland ; and there Ih a ])urticular (•imi'tment in our own couHtituttonal act, which 1 Mup|)OKe must l-ave had in view to correct the abuses which mijji't fi»ll<»w the too ffreat exteuMiou of thia power, i'hic!i mijjht be exer- citrd by the Legislature of Upper or Lower Canada, because in tl>£ vry Constitutional Act there ia a particular power reserved to His Majesty to disallow auc't acts as are passed by the IVliaraents of Upper or Lower Canada dui'injf two years after t' ey hac etfect« of the concessions made in Canada of hinds according to this tenure were to carry with tl>em all t' e consequences which they migithavein England, according to t'le laws of England, with regard to the laws of I descent and transfer of property, I consider that even in virtue of the general power »»hich was given by the Parliament of England to the Parliament of Lower Canada, to make laws for the interior of that province, the Parliament of Lower Canada would have a full and competent authority to make, with the consent of His Majesty, any alteration which might lie necessary from the laws of England. The manner of chan;i^ing the laws ma/ vary, and even use and custom will establish laws, and will servo to iutcrpret I Uw8. This took place in Canada with regart to the tenures. Can yon inform the Committee what is the proportion of the area of Lower Canada in I which the townships are included as compared with the area of the seigneuries P — No. About 30 or 40 townships have settlements in them. The extent of townships already granted in whole or in part, and the ungranted lands, form almost the whole superiioies of the province, the seigneuries being chiedy combined to the shores of the 8t. Lawrence and (he rivers falling into it. Lower Canada generally, however, contains rehiti rely to its iup«r:titiies but a small proportion of land tit ^r cultivation under that ulimate. It is in (kct ..!••'■• lU Ju.i* tbkS. 1- ! t I 1 ■f t 1 \ . ■ ■ . •\ * 1 I-. " '.'1 ^\^ \ ! I ' Vi. I 158 mNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J). B. Viaer '*^ the lower part of the valley of a great river, and this valley towards the eastorn «. £M]uiti. * t'ewity is reduced to a uarroiv limit by the meeting of the sonthtfrn nnd northern ihaioi ^of mouDtaios, extending from the Alleghanies on the scut!), and Hudson's 13.iy on tbi 1' m ■\ ■]« 10 Jiuna 1820. north. Do you think that the establishment of the Enoflish laws, which rnlate to property liclj in Ei^rland on free and common soccage, and bringing them into operation in the tonu. - i 4 ' ■^'P* "' Lower Canada, and also apply) -.'^ tliem to all property wherever held in Lower •,' ' Canada, whit-h is held on the tenure of' ; je and (loiuniou socrage would beauinfriuwmpnt of the rights of the ancient Canadian inhabitants of the country ? — The least that 1 could «ay of it is, that it would be unjust ; I think it would be an infringement of the rights uhiih belong to us if it was not done by the Legislature of Lower Canada. ^ Do you think tliat it would tend to returd the cultivation and civilization of the uuiDhi^ bite.I and wild districts of Lo vcr Canada? — If I were to enter into the details, I v.oald(i(s monstrate that it is that kind of fluctuation which has existed in Canada since the conqucttt, by which we have continuallv been threatened with seeing all our institutions which wer« dear to us destroyed, which has retarded tlie settlement ot the country, and if you coiisi. der the imm(?use progress which has l>een made by t e Canadian population in spite otull the difficulties which t'aey have experienced, it is easy to see w|:at it would have been ift proper system of conduct had been folio ^*ed v^ith regard to the Canadians. When you say a proper system, do you mean if t e Frencli system and the Freuc'i lav had not been obstructed in its operation ? — SotiU'as this, that they should have continued to let the French law prevail all over the country, and that they s'ould have given tkility to the people of the country to settle in those townships, t tat instead of putting obstructioo, ' . they should have given them the means to go there; that asystem of education should hare been follo<:^(-d in t e country, ac'ording to the ideas and notions of the people, instead of ' ' raising obst^^^les in t' e way v^ hich I could detail to the Committee, and sbovt them that eve^ thing lam saying now I can support by facts, and facts of a most extraordinary nature; , ^ that particularly which has been a great obstkole to the developeraeut of t; e industry of the Canadians has beei^, that they have been too often looked upon asa species of enemies to the Government, and I beg the Committee to look at the distribution of places in Lower Canada, even of offices purely of honor, suc)i as justices of the peace, &c. Is not the real stnis^lo wi ich is now taking place in Canada a struggle between thoH , ivha Mnshto promote French Canadian interests and to extend French law over the w^ ole o( Lower Canada, and those wlio wish to resist that operation, and to protect the Eii^rlisb liettlers in that country and place them under English law y — Tiiere is no buch feeling; the desire of the ('anadians must be necessarily to keep up tlieir own institutions, and to pre. 8erve their laws in every part of the country. In tiiat tliere is no kind of feeling against the English population j a prejudice of that kind does not exist in Canada. The besti»roof tliat there isno feeling against whatore called the Enj;lish is, thaf at least one half ofthc|)opu' lation sides with tnc Canadians in all the little difficulties we have had with our aduuuis> tration. Is it not the wish of t'le Canadians to change the strucittu'oof the Legislative Council, and to, take measures for ensuring its foiTnation in sucha way as to niakuit likely that 't slionlj ' agree withthe LegislativeAsserably? — lamsurewe must wish that the Legislative Council should be composed of men who would siaps be the natural cflect, but there is no particular system of this descriptiou; ike wholemassof t .e people being attached to institutions which I'Rve been already in cxis? tence for two centuries, and which thev were called up- Imputofthem on the part of Government, and suffering the people of tiie province, >< ith- jontauydistinctiou w.iatever, tp hare an equal voice in tho raana^^emeut of it* intai'u4 mix ;< M' > I ) ■ M! it ■ I- i\ .t ' ' 1 '•' 1 I; ' |« 15S MINUTES OF ETIDBN€fE BBFOnU SELECT COMMITTEE JoMin Cittil/Lt' I J Juiiv, l^dH. Jovia, 12®. die Junii, 1828: Mlti'i T , Austin Cuvillier, Esq. called in j and Examined: YOU represent the County of Huntingdon in the Legislative Assembly of Lower C^ . natla i* — I am one of the membei-s representing tlie county of Hnntingdon. How long have you represented that couuty ? — Upwards of 14 years. Have you had ocuasiou to pay inuc'i attention to hnancial matters since -you have b^a a member of the Assembly V — \ have beeii generally appointed on committees, to whom have been referred t-e accounts of the receipts and expenditure of that province. Arc joii engaged in mercantile pursuits m Lower Canada ? — I am a commission mer- chant. Are von also a laudownei" ?— lam. The Committee are informed that disputes have arisen between the Assembly and thf Executive Goveruraeut of Lower Canada, upon the subject of the appropriation of rcv^ nue ; in your opinion, would the Legislative Assembly object altogetner to voting pehna- tientlyapart of the establishment for the Executive Government? — I cannot pretend torn what the! Legislative Assembly of Lo^«er Canada nould do ; all I can sa.v is, that the v hm hit -erto made a permanent appropriation Yor the salary of the lieutenant-governor durio); Iiis residence ; stud tiey have offered to make a jwrmanent provision fpr the judges, with r<>tired alIowances,on condition that the commissions should be during good behaviour, aud that they should withdraw from the Cotincils, and t.^at a tribunal shoiud be appointed io the colony for the trial of impeachments. You say that they have voted a salary to the lieutenant-governor ; have they ever voted a eaiary for the governor-in-chief ? — No. * Ist't'ere an indisposition to do so ?— Tnere has been an indisposition generally to Tot« any of the salaries of the officers of Government permanently : it was asked of them in th< year 1821 by the present governor, and it was refused. Subsequently it was asked fur during the life of t 'nilieJ for the Empire to pa* its governor-general, rather than to fasten it upon t e province uf Lower Canada exclusively, which has its lieuteiiaat-goveruor to pay as well astbeotiier provinces ; it only amounts to 5,(K)0/. currency . Is not the salary of the lieutenant governor borne now upon the expenses of the oolouf^ It is. Is not the salary of the governor-general borne upon the establiahiaent of Lon'er Ca- nada only ? — It is. ^ ^ ^ As far as the objection applies to his having aut'peneral, or a proper portion of it, for the time during which he ticid his office ?— I can only answ4;r for m\ self ; I should feel inclined if I were mo callw) upon, to Tote tlie salary of the governor-general during the time that he administered tiie govcru- ment therein. With respect to the judges, the Committee understand that they are appointed only during pleasure ? — They are appointed during pleasure. Would it, in tour view, be safe and wise to appoint them guam diu gebane gesserent P— 7 No question that holding their commissions during good behaviour, subject to impeac ni«.'ut in the colony, would be more advantageous ; it would make them mure independent »( the Crown, and the people would have no objection to make them independent of them, (rinn<; them permanent salaries and retired allowances ; that tuts already been proposed, bat rejected in thfj Legislative Council. Do \o\x believe that if a judg^^ could only be controlled 'jy so troublesome a procecs a-t impeachment, it would be safe to appoint hfm durino; goo<' conduct ? — I should suppose a teuse of duty would keep men within certain bounds ; at the s^me time t' ere may be somo Tery bad men that mav require to be controlled by the dr-iad of punishment. Dp you propose to invest thepowerof impeachment of the judges in t e House of A.s<. sembly ?— The impeac'imcnt, I understand, virtually belongs to the representative of th(> people ; that is %n inherent right of the inhabitants of the province as thcv conceive, a» wt'll as the riglit of taxation; but the trial, in my opinion, ought to be before the Legislative Coaacil. _ - _ .• Supposing it should not be thought desirable ta adopt t^e rerommendation you have made, and to appoint the judges rpon so permanent a moting, s'ould vou object to tho judges having a salary voted to t-iem as long as toey held tlieir oflirc, although they ooiiti^ uued dependent upon the Government ? — I should decidedly object to voting any thing permanent to t:^e judges wit'iout those conditions, that their commissions should be duriii); l^pod behaviour, that there shunld be a tribunal in the colony for their trial in case of mal- Tcrsation, and that they should retire from the Councils both legislative and executive ; bc- (auge it is a strange anomaly that the judges should be executive councillors and l^slative ruano-llors as wqU as judges ; they in the morning advise the executive, in the aitefiiooi^ thev make the law, and in the evening they.admiiuater it. Should you propose to carry tliat principle so far as to exclude the chief justi£e froni nther the Legislative Council or the Executive Coancil ? — There might be some difference iu opinion upon t at subject. I think there «oald be no objection to tlie chief justice re- nu^'uin^ preeiMent of the Legislative Council. Bat \ou think there would be an objection to any of the other judges being members of the oouncil ? — Pecidedly. The Assembly have, on various occasions, objected to any ol" t e Judg^es remaining in the Legislative Council,' and they have thought it very improper I that t'ley should be in the Executive Council. Do > oil hold, that no person holding office in the ExeCiUtive Government, of which I.q may be deprived at the will of the Governor, oug'it to sit in the Legislative Council 'f — If tiK'v did not form a majoritv of the Council there would be no great harm ; buiaat' e Coun- I cil is at present constituted, they form t'ne majorit) ofthatbodv, and holding their places Tdurin^ pleasure, they are liable to he influenced by the Governor. No greaterexample of I f'at can be found than that of the same bill having been adopted in 1825, and rejected iu 1626, with the same persons present, upon a change of governor. Do yon think, if any arrangement were made similar to that of the ciyil list in En- lt:land, that it would be desirable, or not, to include the secretary to the Governor ? — I lio not see upon what principle the secretary's salary should be made permanent more t* an that of any other executive officer of the province. If the Con^piittee would point out any disadvantage that the secretary would be under from his salary being annual intitead of permanent, I might perhaps have a contrary opinion ; hiit I do not see that any di8advantage would arise to the Government from the salary of the secretary being aiw |nual. Do you think it is not desirable that the salaries of a certain number of officers be> pnging to the Executive Government should be made permanent? — None but thejudi- |«ial oincers ; those should be made independent of the people, but upon condition that jthry should also be independent of the Crown. Do U' .)'.iiiv, .'fc<.k. •M 11- 1 1 k I If' i..t n .M^ ) i'fl It lao MINUTES OF EVIDENCB BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Amfin CiiAvier, Do von apply that principlft to the Executive Council ? — The executive councillon have but small salarieH in that capacity. Do yon think that thf>y should be dependent upon the annual vote of the Assembly? — M. opinions are decidedly against any permanent appropriation of any description, exci'pt in favour of t 'e jiidjfea, and those already made by the Assembly. Do you conceive that there would be on the part of t le Assenihly an insuperable ob- jention to a permanent civil list, however limited in extent, or to any vote beyond an annual vote for the civil list, even tmppo^iin^ the Government should give up the claimi which they have made, or should repeal those provisions under which they conceive that they have the power of. disposinjf of certiiin revenues of the province? — I can only say that there now exists upon our statute book a permanent appropriation, conditioned upon the repeal of the Act of 1 774, of nearly 12,000/. which, I believe, is tar more than any permanent appro]' riation that would be consented to at this day under any condition. (Jan you state from recollection what is the distribution of that 12,000/. ?— It is for the support of the civil ^overament, and the administration of justice in general terms, wlth< out any sp* cific appropriation. Has "not the Assembly in late years objected altojrether to voting- any lumping; sura to the (love^nment permanently, leavinnf the distribution of it to them ? — A bill very much of that description did actnally pass in 1825; there was a sum aX money voted to make lip a sum equal in amount to that w ich was reriuired, and certiunly it left the distribu- tion of the money entirel. at the disposal of the Government. I objected to the billia 1825, upon the principle that the Assembly denied to the Executive Government the right of disposing of the monies under the Act of 1774, at the same time that they left a much larger sum at' their entire disposal; but to guard against that, so far as regardel that law, we entered resolutions on our own journals, stating that whenever a sura of money was voted for one service, it should be applied exclusively to that service, and not to any other ; whicit guarded in some respect against th') misapplication of money from one service to another. Bv obliging the executive to submit annually an account of the expenditure nnder that particular account, we thereby ensured to the Assembly au oy portunity of judging whether monies of that description were misapplied. ' Was not the objection to the Act of 1825, upon the part of the Government at home, that by voting a (ieiinite sum to make up a certain amount, the House of Assembly took upon themselves virtually to control over those funds which the Government maintained were subject to their appropriation ? — No doubt; th'e Assembly. considered it so also. How is that to be reconciled with the position which you laid down just now, tliat the Legislature in 1 825 passed a bill, granting a permanent appropriation to the Crown ?— I did not understand tiiat anv permanent appropriation had been made in 1825. What was voted by the bill of 1825 ?— £.58,064 sterling. Under what conditions was tliat voted ? —The sum was voted under t'le condition that it should be expended for the general purposes of the Government, and that the account of the expenditure should be submitted to the Legislature within 15 days of the tbea ensu- ing session. - Was the vote worded in such a wa? as to assume the power of voting the monies ari- sing from the taxes raided under the Act of 1774 ?--The bill had that effect. In what way '^vas that prodwcd? - li was worded so that the siun given by the Legis- lature was'to make up the sum of 58,000/. fos^the general expenses of the Government, including the sums already appropriated ' that puniose. Was t^ere not also a provision that ai. .account of the 58,000/, should within fifteen days of the next session of Parliament be laid before the Legislature *? — There was. Did not that provision bind the Crown down to actonnt to the Legislature for then STims which they claimed to be under their special appropriation ?— Unquestionably, it was so intended. Did not the phraseology of the bill also include, virtually, a grant and appropriation of I t^ose taSes ?— Wti did not appropriate those, bct^iuse they were already appropriated fot the purposes of Government ; but we voted a sum that would, with those taxes, form the amount that v as judged necessarj' for the expenses of the Civil Government, which haJ the effect of bringing the wbolc of that appropriated revenue under the control of the L^ l^slatttP*. Oil ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMEMT OF CANADA. 161 On what ground do ^ou hold that the revenues arising under the Act of ^1 774 are not ^„,« ISi2M. the colony had no Legislative Assemlly; it had no power within itself of la' injf taxes for the support of its own Government. The principle adhered to by the British Government now, is; that in their re<^-ulatioas concerninj; trade pcnerally, whenever taxes are raised for tliat purpose in the colonics, they are directed t'.' be applied in the colonies, under the control of tlie local Assemblies, where there are Assemblies ; and where there are no Assemblies, it is left as in the Act of 1774, to be applied by the Lords of tlie Treasury. I consider the Treasury at that time held the power of applying' the taxe9« in trust, to be exercised so long' only as the colony had not a Legislative Assembly, but the moment the colony obtained a Legislative Assembly, that tnist ceased in the hands of the Treasu- ry, and we became virtually possessed of our inliereut rights as British sulijects, tliat is, the right of tiixing ourselves, and the right cf.ipplyiug ti:ose revenues within the colony. That is my opinion of the Acts of 1778 and 1791, as applied to that of 1774. Then you do not contend that tiic right of the Assembly to control those taxes arises . _^. from any definite provision of an Act of Parliament, but t 'at it is a general inherent power conne«^ted with the legislative powers of t'le province? — I understand it so. Wt;at would be the grounds upon vhiohyou would decline following tie analogy of the British Government, in voting a certain sum for t'.e King's life, or for a teim of years, for a civil list ? — There is no analogy wi-atever bet'oen the practice of the colo- niefi and the practice of the mother country. The King here is supposed to be always in the midst of his people, surrounded by a nobility tliat have a real stake and perma- nence in the country ; but in Canada tliero is no such thing ; the Government of Canada cannot be administered by the King, it must be by a representative, accountable to tie King and to his ministers. We have not in Lower Canada any tiling like an aristocra- cy, and ti^e consequence is, tliat there is^io motive in tl-e colonies for making that]>ro- vision for the civil govcrnnlent of the colony that tiere is in England. Besides, in En- fland tlie King has given more than an equivalent for the civil list, he has given large landed patriraonijil^eetatos, in consideration of which, the Parliament have given to Ilis Majesty a permanent grant of money. ' tias not the Crov.n the power to code any casual or territorial revenue arising in nada?— I conceive that the Government i'.as already conceded part of its territorial r< nuein 1794, for the public uses of the province. Ca- reve- Doyou not conceive that in a government which admits of anv monarchical principles in its constitution, it is essential t at there s' ould be certain oflicicrs of state who are in- dependent of the popular voice? — I will not enter into tlie merits of any form of gov- ernment, but I ^mU uit'iclj^ say, that it is my opinion generally that t^e judges only in the colony should be made independent of the people. Do \X>u conceive that all other officers uhatnver belonging to t'e state should be sub" ject to an annual vote of a popular assembly ? — I do so, with the exception of the governor- genrral, who, I tiink, should ba paid by t le Empire. You 8tate that there can be no aristocrac v in Canada, v hat niiikes you say so ? — The la'.' 8 of the cxnintry are against the acquirement of property sufficiently large to create an aristocracy in the country, and the manners of the people of America are decidedly a^inst t'.e system of aristocracy. Do you apply that to America generally, or is tlierc any thing peculiar to Canada? — America generally. What is it that prevents the accumulation of property in large masses in tlie hands of individuals ? — The subdivision of property. What produces the subdivision of property ? — The laws of descent. Are the la^'s of descent similar all over America? — I believe they are pretty much th© •ame in the United States of America as in the seigneuries of Lower Canada. Is it not frequently the case among tlie French inhabitants of Lower Canada tliat they leave their property to t';e lounger son, while the elder sons go elsewhere? — It ha« liithorto b«en tl»e case, but that custom is dying away very fast j there have been consi- derabl* ! 1 !ili M 16S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE ^utHnr.iuiUhr derable abuses of tliat mode of givid? away property, I believe it is not now very jrener. EM|iiire. oXiv folluvied in Canada. , ...A — ..^^ Tlicn t'le almost universal practice in Lower Canada is to divide the property amon» I'J Juuo 181^8. the children? — It is, by au equal division. Does that system prevail in Upper Canada ? — I do not know what system prevails in Upper Canada; but the Representative Assembly l^as frequently passed a bill for an equal divjsion of the estates of persons dyinff intestate. Do you know what system prevails in the United. States of America?— I do not. ? ' Was not there more than one ofFor made by tlie Assembly to the Government to take the civil list upon itself to a certain amount, if a sufficient control were given over the appt'opriation ? — There lias been no definite proposal to vote any additional sum pcrma- . , ^ nently. Was not there a proposal to take the civil list as it stood in 1819, provided a control were jOfiven to the Assembly ?—The Assembly voted in 1819 nearly the whole of the sum that was required of it by the Executive Governraent in 1818. Was not there an offer made by the Assembly to engage to pay the civil list as it stood in 1791, provided a control over the appropriation were given to the Assembly? — The offers which a legislative body generally makes are by bills, that is the language of the Legislature ; that bill professed to make an annual appropriation in 1819, for all the n^ . - cessary expenses of Government. Were tliey specified item by item? — In 1819 it was voted item by item, and so ex- pressed in thchilL In 1821 the sums were voted by chapters, that bill did not pass in tiic Legislative Council. In 1822 tliere was no money voted ; it was asked for permanent* ly during tie liffi of tlie King, terms in tliemselves contradictory, but they were media . tlie message sent down by the governor. Do you know on what ground the bill wliich voted the supplies by chapters was re- jected by the Council ?— I did not attend t!ie debates ia the Council, but I know that the 'Council passed certain resolutions against their'proceeding upon any bill from the Assem- bly, which did not provide for the expenses of the Government in one entire sum, and during the life of the King. • •• Will you be so good as to state wliat control you hold f^at the Assembly haa over what are caUed the rents of the King's posts, which amount to 1,200/. ? — The rents of the Kind's posts amount to 1,200/. currency. Lord Dorchester, in his^message to the Legislature in 1794, in tiie name of the King, gave ti;ose revenues to the province towards the sup- port of its civil government. Hence the control which I conceive the Assembly has over ' tliose revenues. It is in consequerice of a gift on the part of His Majesty to the pro- vince, for the public uses ti.creof, that the Legislature has t!ie right of appropriating them • to tl lose purposes. '^ ' - In what form was tliat gift made ? — By message. t. Did that message of Lord Dorchester's say that the King would appropriate those reve- nues for the use of tlie province, or that he made them over to the Legislature to be ap- propriated by t'lcm to the use of the province? — I do not recollect tlse precise words of the mcssiige ; but this I recollect, that the casual and territorial revenue was given to the province in aid of its civil government; at that particular time the revenues of the province wei'e not sufficient for the payment of its whole expenses. Do you hold that the power of appropriating that revenue to specific objects is in the Legislative Assembly ? — I conceive so; I conceive the right beloi^ to the Assembly ot" t'.e colonies, to appropriate every shilling of money levied i)n them generally. Here is the sum of 500/. stated as arising from the forares of Saint Maiunc« ; what it that ? — That forms a part of the territorial revenue of the King. Are the Committee to understand that you claim more than is claimed by any of the other Britisli Legislatures in North America, because you are probably aware that there is upon record no claim w hatever, by any other Colonial Legislature; upon what is pecu- liai'ly called tlie territorial revenue of the Crowu ? — I tlo not know what is claimed bf other colonies. I have been asked my opinion as to what I think ought to be, and I have declared it unequivocally. Do you moan, by the ansnem you have given, to imply that you think that th« coIobt -. . ' ought i OH THB CIVIL OOV£RNA acts that ma^ be un- popular ? — Assuredly. Are you aware that two appointments have lately been made by the Crown, one of our inspectors' of woods and forests in Lower Canada, Mid the otiier of an inspector of the waste lands, for the purpose of raising a revenue and applying that revenue under the control of the Crown, and under the discretion of the Government, expressly and exclu- sively for the benefit of Lower Canada ? — I am aware that there are two such appointments esisBng in Lower Canada. I believe Mr. Davidson is at the head of one omce, and Mr. Feiton, of the Legislative Council, is at the iiead of tlie other. I do not know what de- partment of Government pays them their salaries ; these salaries have never been asked of the Legislature of ^iOwer Canada. Are ^'ou aware thai their salaries are to be derived from the proceeds of the sale of timber and the sale oi land ? — I do not know out of what fund their salaries are to be provided. Are the Committee to understand that yon consider that the Assembly have a right to fie proceeds of the sale of land, and the proceeds of the sale of timber, and t'lat they have a right to appropriate those proceeds instead of the Crown ? — These are opinions that are required w mc upon which I really should hesitate to pronounce. I know that the people io England are very jealous of any revenues of the Crown independent of Paruament, and any thing that can excite the same jealousy in the colonies is equally pernicious. Are you not aware that there is this distinction between the situation of the people ia the colonies and that of the people in this country, that the colonies do not contribute to- wards their military defence ? — I consider that the colonies pay considerably towards the support of their defence. The monopoly of our trade is worth somothiug to the Empiie, nd I think that in consequence of that monopoly we are entitled to be protected Is it your opinion, that under the circumstances of the change of the commercial law of this country under the late Act, it is now to be assertc'd that the mother country has a monopoly of the trade of Lower Canada? — I should consider so ; because, in throwing opentheportsof other parts of the world, Parliament has virtually closed them by laying heavy duties, which prevent oiu: taking advantage of that intercourse ; for instance, the porta In va: 1 ; 4 » ■• a ■' i I' :li m 1 1 104 MINUTES OF EVIOTINCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE if' /Iv 1"' ■ (■; • 1 1 re . 12 Juno IHJB. portR of France have beon t."'rown opon to Cannila for a direct trade, br.t the duties int. |ioand upon the muuui'iictures of I'niuco in Cauuda are so heavy tbat the)' amount tot jfpohibition. Are Hid Committco to understand that yon demur to that provision oft.be Act of i«th Geo. 3, w! ioli sneciUcall* reserved to the mother country thi? rig. tof iniposinjj duties lor tlic rei>nlafioii ut the trade ? — No, I do not ; I tliinlc it very necessary that tlie bn« perial l^u'Iianieut bhould possess tlio power of re;jfnlatinflf the general commerce of th« Empire. Does tlio colony pay any thing- towards tlic support of the troops in Lower Canada? —No. You complain of the waste and misinana^omcnt of the revenues in Lower Canada, lare you anv further observations to make upon t.at point ? — Ttie petitioners of Lovrcr Canada compbtin, araonffst other thius^, of the miKmanagoment of their revenues. In 1809, tin receiver-ffcneral, it appears, ws\^ in arrear about 40,0001. Tiiis stim was as^nmel byhii son and successor, who vasin default in 1823 about 100,0001., besides about 10y,(HWl. more advanced, M'hich from tliattime till 185i(i had not blo>ed to <5:irry into exe<:Htion Acts' of the Provincial Leei of the Legislature. In 1794, April 1 9th, the message from the governor tor t:« entire repeal of the Revenue Act of 1774, " aseoon as the provinces of Copper and Lower Canada shall have passed laws laying the same or other duties to an equal aiuciuit to thc«* '^ whiik llliltlii uniciiticn to MINUTES OP EVIDEVCK DEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE 106 which are payable undort!ie Act, aud aiiuIi ia-.vM nhM havoobtuiutMt t'lo Koyul Ah-ipiU, the Ki'iz'i* MiiUHtiTs wi'.l be ready to propotie to Parllaiuent h repeal of the Act above nieiiti- ftiipit " lu 1795 tbescrond Revenue Act passed, appropriatiiieadiniuistnition of jii!4tice. In 1799, Juiio lid, an Act passed agreuble to t be ni«>.s- lajfe of April 2»tli 179+, to be in force ;is soon as the repeal in made known by proclama- tion of the governor, *:c. T.is Aear, with t e exclusion of the allowances of Rome siuecnrits and absentees, some of wiiich were afterwards chaii^red into pensions on recommendation of t!>o Goverumeut. tSincc this time the bills H«ut up annually by the Assembly providing for the civil expenditure have been constantly rejected, with t' o exception of 1822, in width year a representation wiim forwarded by the assembly to Hiii Majesty, explaining the grounds upon which it declined granting any additional supplies otherwise than annually, as lad hitherto boen required of it by message of the governor in chief, and excepting also in 1823 in part, and 1825, when the Supply Bill passed by tlie Assembly be«»me n law during the a«lnunistration of Sir Francis Burton. The suj)- plies permanently appropriated by the Colonial Legislature are the proceeds of t' e Act of 1793, amounting to about 2,0001. annually for ti.o expenses of the Legislature, and 5,0001. sterling annually for t' e administration of justice. The local (Jovernment claims also t e territorial revenue given to the colony of His late Majesty, 29tii April 1794, " to be applied towards defraying the civil expenses of the province," amounting to about 5,0001. auunally, and the amount of the proceeds of tiie Quebec Revenue Act of 1774, before mentioned, w; ich proceeds, bv taking a- ay in 1822 a drawback formerly allowed on exportations from the colony to tie Wl^st Indies, bos increased from about 10,0001. to about 20,0001. annually. The whole of these sums tlie executive l.as lately claimed to apply in such amounts its it pleases, to such expenses as it deems to be expenses of t'ld Civil Government, and the administration of justice, without consulting tiie Assembly, and it calls ou the Assembly to provide the deficiency. The Assembly, on the other hand, insists that no items form part of the expenses of government generally without its con- concurrence. In the mean time, since 1819, (Mita the exception of 1 823 and 1825 above foeutioned) the governor has paid such deficiencies as he t ought proper out of the mo- nies which he acknowledges to be at the disposal of t!>e Colonial Legislature, to the amount of about 140,0001. leaving not!. ing or next to nothing for local improvements, education, or other pressing v. ants of the country. You liave stated that the claims ont'te part of the governor have only been made lately ; that would appear to implv that ti e governor lad originally recognized the right of the province to appropriate all the monies ? — In 1819 it was so understood, ti.at the LegiaU' turc of Lower Canada should have t^e control over the whole expenses. Ho'-» does t'lat appear ? — It appears by the message and estimates of that year. By the Act of 1819, was there not an appropriation of the whole revenue of the colony made by the legislative assei )ly ? — In 1819, an Act was passed appropriating to the amount of 40,000/. to make up the deficiency between the appropriated revenues aud the expenses of Government, because those appropriated revenues n ere insufficient. Did it include any clause similar to that which was inserted in the Act of the year 1825 ? (do not exactly recollect the clause, but I think it was similar to thiU; ; the bill of 1819 was to cover the expenses of the preceding year, which had been expended upon the address of the House. What was done in theyear 1820 ?— There was no session in 1820. In 1821, a bill wa« passed by chapters, voting the whole expenses of the Gov^'umentp and f^plyin^f the appro- priated revenues to form a part of it Wkfln 11^ •r ,|i. V,- ^^\:{ ^k^ 3 ■'ii wr^ IM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE l« Junt 1M8, f }. If . ^«iir|n CuvUlier Wh«n ia you consider the OovcriiBtcnt finit to huve made a claim to a ponnanent 'ap. - "'^*' pfopriation of a part of tlie r4'vpnii» ? — In 1 822, tbc (iovornor, by a r.rssage to the Ahmm. "^ 'blv, stated lie had in hi« power rertuin revenucB which he would ap^ly to certain cxpcuM of the Govferaiiient, and reauestiii;^ tiio le^slaturc to miilie a provision for local establish. uentH which form no |>art m the civil (foyerument, and among the items for which the Atj^eni- bly wan remiiredto pi*ovide, which form no ])uri of the civil govcrumcut, Mas the expoiuct ofthe legiiMatureof the colony. In the year 1818, when the Governor called upon the province to supply monies for tht support ot' tlie whole of the civil Government, did lu; not promise some conditions on hit part, and were tliose <'ondition8 complied with 't — TJie denmnd upon the Assembly of that (Id was to make provision generally for the expenses of the (iovernment. It was under- stood at that time, tliat since the Assembly were chni'ged witli.the «vhole expenses of the ci- vil government of the colony, the v. hole of the means should be at itsdisposal. We consi* dered as part of the means those revenues that were already partly appropriated to tliat purpose. Did not the governor promise that the Act of 1774' should be repealed ?— Notio 1818; in 1794, the Governor in his messnge to the Legislature at that time stated, that as soon as the Legislature of Upper Canada and that of Lower (!anada shall have laid the same or other duties equal in aniount. His Majesty's Ministers would recommend to Parliament a repeal of the Act of 1774<; in 17&.9, an Act of that description passed t^e Legislature of Lower Canada, and received the Royal sanction. That Act is in our statute book, and it now r^ mains for the British I^arliament to repeal the Actofl774,in order to have a permonentap- propriation of 12,000/. l3o you conceive, Bup])csing the revenue Act of 1774 now to be repealed, that the le^It. ture would have a control ovnrt'e permanent appropriation which was then provisiooally ▼otod P — There is some doubt upon ih<«t point I must confess ; I would decidedly say, yes ; but that is only an individual ojunion. Can you give the Committee a general statement of tl>e present state of the population and representation in Lower Canada ? — The population of Lower Canada, according to the censustalfcn conformably tolegislutive enactment in 1824, was about 430,000. There were numerous omissions in this first census. -The population was then upwards of 500,000; it ipiust now be about (>00,000. About nine-tent4is of these live by agricultural labour, on their own land, say are proprietors to the extent of from 60 to MO arpents. Tlie^ound is co- vered vNith snow about six months in tlie year ; they are, however, able to bve with gome comfoi*t, and rear numerous families. The incomes from lands, wlierc the owner docs not work himself, ai'fl trifling. There may be a few hundred proprietors who get annually as rent for land, to t'lO value of from 100/. to 300/. The pnncipal revenues from land are soigne urial revenues, they amount from 100/. a year to l,d00V. v«hich is about the highest. The other tenth are connected with the towns in whii^h the majority of the inhabitants are propi'iotoi's of houses and lots. The wealthiest have incomes from 500/. to 2,000/. a year ; ief the latter there are but very few indeed. The trading classes, generally, have been ra- tlier sinking than gaining money of late yeai*8. The representation was fixed by the governor's proclamation in 1 792 at 50, and the whole province included in the division of counties. Since this time a number of toHiisliips OD the frontiers of the United States have been settled by American emigrants. Between these settlements and the old settlements there was and still is, in several directions, many miles of wilderness. Since the late war va^t sums of public money have been ex- pended and called for to open roads for them to the 8t. Lawrence, the greatest part of vhichhas been uselessly spent. About ten years ajfo tliese people wished to have repre- seittatives^ distinct from tae old Canadian settlements, within the counties in which the townships are placed. Since ISlSbiUs have been almost annually sent up by the Assem- hly to the Legislative Council, to increase ar\d apportion the representation of the pro- vince, and set off tho townships in separate counties ; vnth this bill the townships gene- rally have dccliu>ed themselves satisfied, but the bills were lost in the Legifjative Council These townships contain by qensus about 30,000 souls. You ai*e a«aret!:at a proportion of the lands in Canada are held upon the tenure of free and common soocage ? — The lands in the townsliips are under that tenure. Have not all the lauds {j^ntcd since 1791 been granted upon that tenure f — Ib^«vt thers "':iil OS THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. l«t thcr«tr«3 no (grants in free and common ioccaifo earlier than 1796 ; between I??*" and jfutUn CuvUlier 1791, I tiiiiilt there were two f^rants under NpigMeiirial titleii. The Kind's intctnietionn m Einulrt. late an 1780 were to ffraiit en fief ct aciijncurie. The whole may be seen m the land r«pArf . in AsHembly'a Journal of iHik la jun« ism. Supposing the o\vncr ot'Lindi held in free nnd common socraj^e were to die intentnte, ao- cordin^ to what In v do yuu hold that hiH property would descend to \m children ? — Hitherto it hM been considered that the property would deHoend to the children aj^recahly to the Iavs of Canada, bntsince tliopiussini; of the Act of the fi Geo. 4, c. 59, commonly called the Tenurflfl Act, it is understood that the property would descend according to the lawa of Ell inland, because that Act made the laws of Lnsfland applicable to lands in Canada held under that tenure. That Act has a retroactive effect, wiiic^ will throw the country into great confusion if it is acted upon. la «hat way will that confusion arise ? — It will arise in annulling a \mi number of sales that have been made by the slieritFs and otherwise, which hitherto have been considered la- pil ; it will destroy the rights of minors and absentees, the rights of women and persons in< terdlctcd, and creditors \\ ho have lent money under the supposition that the laws of Ca- nada applied to those townships, and that the property wonld be divided aocoraing to the laws or Canada. Can you state any statute upon which tlie belief was founded that the French law applied to lands hold in free and common soccnge ? — I confess that the Act of 1774 contains in «' the shape of a proviso an enactment that nothing therein shall extend to lands held or to be held in free and common socca<2fe in Lower Canada ; but it could never have been the i • intention of Parliament to establish in the colony two systems of law, and thejudges have uuifornilv, upon that principle, decided that the lauds under the free and common soccage tenure, snonld be regulated by the laws of Canada. To what decisions of the judges do you allude? — In conscqnence of the decisions of the > jad^es, all lands that were disposed of by shcriifs sales have come under the operation of the laws of Canada. Is there any more specific and direct decision upon the subject ? — I do not know that the question has been pronerly raised in any of the courts of justice in Canada. <• Ls it considered as legally established that the property in the townships is subject to the French law ? — I believe that in one or two townships, particularly in the township of Hull, 'p where there are some Canadian sisttlements, the la^s of Canada have been applied to their ■>!! property ; they have inherited it in the manner and form that is prescribed by the laws of •^' Canada, and that inheritance and transfer of property has been held good. Was there any dispute upon tlie subject? — There was no dispute about it ; because /v ' there was no difference of opinion n{)on the subject till the Act of the 6th of the King. » Are tlie Committee to concliide that voii are not aware of any decision of a court ot law ' upon the disputed point ? — I do not know that the Question has ever been raised in th« ^' concerned in any suit in which tliat question has been raised. • --''> Oa what ground do you form the opinion that it could not have been the intention of the **' Leifislature, by the provisions of the Act of the 14 Geo. 3, to establish two different sys- '\ terns of law in the colony, with respect to real property ? — Because of the impossibility of ::-' acting uiider two systems of laws without nrdducing the greatest confusion. Besides it ^ voiila be libireasonable to suppose that Parliament intended to introduce the law of En-i-"i> ^ ^hpd into a country already regulated by a different system, without at the same time en- '< abling those who were to be guided by the law, to know what were the new laws introida* ^ ced. - . '. Are not awftt-e that the law of gtivelkind and of borough English applies to certain pro-'^/^^<^ perty in England, and that the law of free and common soccage applies to the greater part ^^ ' of the coilntry, and that ho inconvenience id found from that diversity of law ?^I have beard of a giwat many different dtscriptions of tenure in England, and I believe that th« people are very sorry that tliere art so many. Judging from a speech which I have readj' uUtely delivered in Parliament, I should not think the laws of England as exitting at prtieut desirable for Canada. ' Will 1 • il It ! 'V IM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEB JllUlri CufUlic 1'. (|'ilru. ill;i ^ Will ynu ntntp whiit, In your opinion, would b« tlio inconvonienn'M whiciti would «rii« from tlm F,ni»lish law of drsopiif to n'nl proj^^rty prevailing; in th« townitliipM at tlip satin ., lime that till' l-V<>n(-li litw pr«Mail«>(l tvitlila tho iii>i;fn(>uri<>M ?— I liav« iilreiidy HttitoiltliAt 1< JtiMv IHSS. tliorc would rf^sult crtnl'iision iu th«> conrtH of jnsticf if tiu'v^ mto cillcd upon to net iiii4it t o ditY'iTPiit NVHtcaix of Iii'.vm, nnd I bidicvi' th)> lt>irrtl diviMon of tlic diKtrivt;* iHMUch now u prnvont tlin t-xact operation of tlio EtijjIlHh nnd I'rcnrli laws ooiiiointly. Woiilro l)« unv dilKrulty in d« di(fi>r«>nt diNtrictH in which the different ByntoaiH w ere to pr«>vuil ?— It Ih not iniptwHiMf*. Would tlit'n* Im> liny diincnlty in i>NtaldiNliiii<; dilffn'Mt courts, in which the two difliDt ■yntenis of law rcHocctiMj,^ roal property niitrhllii- adpiitUMtcrnd ? — None. * Would auvcoutu>'ion urisc* in t}\~ii ciwe ? — Not if the new rourts located in the countrj wtierein t « free and roinmou Non',a\n ;t'pj lave been in a (Treat measure <\ it out la « in t at country Hince t eireHUibliii'.nieut. Tue la '^8, I believe, t' at are now prevalent in t e United btateu of America are tl;c la»ii wl:icj tliev unilerstaiid best. Ilavet e En^lis'i la «B prevailed wit'trep««;t to t' o descent of property by custom V— I , am not a ' are t at f ey I'ave prevailed jfenerally ; t ere nuL'ht liave been Borae inKtancoM of it., but several of t e people wo ' old lauds in t''e tOAiiHaips hold t lem uitltout titles; tliey arc mere sqnatters; persons in nossestsion (►f land t' at h.tve no titles ; t ley sell the ; improvements only ; to make use ot a word common to tliem, ti ey sell t e hetttrmentt ; they never sell the land itself, theysull t 'e mere possession, and the improvements. bo you mean to apply that {generally tu all t c to * us ips in JjO"er Canada ? — I bolicTe ° ' tat in more than one I alf of all t e to'^ns 'ips there is not one man in ten that has a If^al title under the 6th (4eo. IV. c. 59, probably cue third may have an equitable claim to V« land from possession. Are t ere no settlers In t'e tow ns'iips who have improved land wlioh thoy l-ave ac- quired lawfully under (Jo ''ernment jf rants? — There are no doubt some who have made oonsiderable improvemei .s ; .1 kno^^ a f^entlemun there t at bas spent a fortune upon the improvement ot land, of .vl ich lie jfot a grant fromt le Government ; Mr, Feltou. IIoA doyou account fort'te circuinstance of tliero boinjf so few settlers in Lo-^er ('»• nada, and for the (jfreat preference whicli is shown by Ena:lisli settlers to pfo to Upper (V iiu'la ? — There are various causes for that ; in t'le lirst place the climate of Unper Cak>ada is better, t ey I ave their friends there in ginathinjy. ' > How do yon account for f'c circumstance of t' ere bein»no settlers in the, townsMpti ex- rept t'ie persons t' at you describe as squatters, and one or two individuals w.^omyou dcs« cribe as'havin}? laid out money upon t*ie improvement of land ; is t lo difference of climate alone suffieieut to account for it, or is there any objection to the system of Frencli law ?— I do not believe that t'e existinjr svstem of law forms any bar to the actual settlement of the country in t^ e town-ships ; because I do not kuow that t'ere has been any increase of aettlemont in t e townships since the passing of the Act of the 6th of tho present King, «hic'i declares t x lauds in those townsnipa to ho under tuc opcratioi> of the laws of £d- gland. What, in your ophiion, will bet" e effect ofthat provision In the Canada Tenures Act, which enables individuals in the seiji^neuries to c'lan^re thetenure of t'^ eir property, and to hold it in free and uoramon aocca^e ? — There \a an objection in my mind to tne comniuta< tion on t e part of t e seirty i» tn-r^ — .^__^_ cheated to the Crown, who on upplii'iitiun f^i-antM it to actual sett I era. Tlicre have hoeii ix Junv, ibva. (omedeoiiiions upon that auhjoct in the courtH of juNtiue in CanB'.ia before the Conqnciit. where the Bcigneurm have reiiiited to concede, and th« property ho refuued to bo conceded was reunited to the domain of the Kin^. At the name tirao that the Hei^iiciir wiu railed upon to allow aottlers to nettle upon hii land, subject to the nay ment of »Nniall rent, WHH not he on bis part called ujton to puy a , certain rent to the Crown ?— The only dues which a seigneur pays to the Ciown iu the Droit de Quint, which is paid only upon sale oftheMeigneury. You are aware that the Tenure Act is not conipulsory, but it iHonly^pvitig facilities to partiefl who wish to cliange their right of property ? — I understand it no. h not the proposition shortly cxprcsHed as follows : that a 8ei;rneur is placed in pos« MMion of his land upon the tenure of free and common socca^re, at a certain rate of payment, siiJijoCt to his being compelled to consent to convert the laud of his Nub-tenant iu- tofreoand common soccoge, U)>on the rcceintof such an award as Khali lie madt) by lu'bitro- tionuuon a given principle ? — I have already obHerved, that I thought the power given tp ' theseigneur to commute was an unjust one; that it was converting tohiHo^Yn use that vbicb was only given to him in trust. The obligation on Win p^rt to commute with his sub- tenant would naturally follow tlio commutation with -the Crown, as a matter of course ; ou the other hand, I hardly think that the seigneur would tind it his iutercnt to submit, on his refusing to change the tenure of his sub-tenant, to an arbitration of the nature described by the Act. Then you consider tV:at the Canada Tenures Act will be inoperative, inasmuch as it will j not be the interest of any seigneur to comply with the terms V — I do so, in a great mea- lure. Ifthey 'vcre complied with, do you think it would retard the settlement and the cultiva- tioa of the land ? — I do not think that the holding lands in seigneury is at all detiimoutal I to settlements ; on the contrary, I tliiiik it facilitates settlements. Do not the seigneurs ever settle and cultivate the land themselves? — Most of the sei- I gaeurs reside on tiieir "nigucuries ; they find it to their advantage. Sliould you confc' ..ose seigneurs to be liolding tlieir lands in trust for settlers ? — All the gcij^neurs hold their lands for actual settlers except a domain, which they ore allowed I to hold for tlieir on u use. Do you meon that they are practically trustees, or only theoretically ?— They are theore- Itically and practicallY trustees ; tlie lands were given to them upon the condition of rc- hraiiting to actual settlers ; because, if the seigneur refuses to grant any lands to au appU- jcaot, that person making complaint to the Crown would have the power of getting tnut [particular land annexed to the domain, and obtain the grant from the Crown at usual our objections to making the Legislative Council elective? — I think it I would niake that body rather independent upon the people, and I should like to see them in- 1 dependent of the peonle and of the Crown. - Would not that inaependftnce upon the people be don<>away with by their bolting their I seats for life ? — Certainly, if they were elected, and that election lasted during theirnatn-l ral life, they would cease to depend upon the people. ^ . I Do you think that the principle of election might be advantageously introduced intot!it| composition of the Legislative Council, bv making not the wliole council elective, butil part of it ? — If t' e composition of tiiat boay could oe so changed as to render it independeitl vithout an election, I VI ould prefer it. r Do you imagine, that in case of any measures beingpassed by the Parliament or the Got>| •mmentat t ome, materially affecting the constitution of the province of Canada, that tbel province would be very ill disposed to receive such measures without having first had a I opportunity of expressing its opinion npon them. I consider the constitution of the goTemments of Upper and Lower Canada, as a codhI pact between the mother country and the colonies, a kina of compact which cannot be dao' I ged witltout the consent of all parties. I should consider that any change whatever in ti(| qpnstitution of government of Lovier Canada, without the inhabitants being previously coo-l tralted would be very ill received by them. Have not the inhabitants of Lower Canada petitioned the Houses of Parliament toi certain alterations in their constitution ? — I beliete not ; on the contrary they pray tii po change whatever shall take place. Generally speaking, do you not consider that the inhabitants 4/Lower Canada attribul the disorders and discontents that have taken place, not to the constitution itself, but I the manner in wliich that constitution has been administered ? — Certainly ; there i^ mil doul ■>■■ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA ITl doubt but that the form of gfOTeroment under which they now lire ii admirably well calcu- ^ ,j Cuvillier lated to ensure their hnppiuess, if it is properly odministered. K»quire. Do you believe that is the opinion entertained of it in the townships ? — The town^ r-——' \ ships, I bellpvc, have romplained. Ido uotknow whether the complaints come from them- \'i Junv lusM. iolves, or whether they ai'e made to complain. Generally I have not heard an y complaint iu the colony against the laws. la th< complaint which the petitionei"s make of the composition of the Lej^sLitive Conn-; cil, dothe\ not conceive that tney ure requiring' the Legislative Council to be so composed, as it was intended to be composed by the Act of 1791 ? — It was no doubt intondod that the Lejfislative should, in imitation oi the House of Lords here, be an independent body, tliiitshould have a stake and interest in the country, and would rise and fall with it; but it isthe reverse in Canada ; those people are not independent of the Crown as the House of Lords ib "jere ; tliey are men directly dependent on the Crown, the majority havio<2^ places I of profit duriuj^ pleasure, that is, they ore actually dependent on the local govern- meut. Do not the people of Lower Canada consider the want of a security for proper nomina- tions to the Leffistative Council as a defect in the constitution of the colony V — The per- sons that iiave been called to the Lejfis'i^ive Council have been called in virtue of the royal prerogative ; the nomination, no 4o .ibt, must in some measure come from the colooy, and although the Government here may have every disposition to nominate persons to that body, who are perfectly independent, yet they are frequently ex|»osed to error, and from misinformation a number of people are called to it who ought not to be there. Seeing the manner in which the prerogative has been exercised, do not \ ou think thai it requires some check ? — No dbubt. I should conceive that t e system of appointment to the Council, if it were necessary that any enactment of law should take place upon the sub- Ijeil, sliould be qualified, by requiring that the persons appointed should have a certain I lamled annual income. Would not that be a change in the constitution of the colv>nv ? — Certainly not; because I it wag intended that the large landed proprietors of the country shouhl form an intcrmedi- latebod. between the Assembly and tlie Crown ; there is no doubt, that upon iiistructionii jheii)'' sent from this country to the colony a bill might be introduced requiring certain qual- iitiiatious in thenienibei's of the Legislative Council. I You state, that you consider the constitution of Canada as a 'ompact between twp bodies Iffliicli caiuiot be altered without the consent of both; do you carry that opinion so far as Ito hold that noalteration of the Act of 1791, could be made bv the British Parliament witli- lout the consent of the Assembly of Lower Canada '< — I consider tliat the Parliament, iu the ipxercise of it.« general superintpudiiig power ,ha8 a right to legislate for the cobtuicsgeneraU lly; but with regiird to internal legislation, the Imperial Parliament has virtually given up Itkat power, with respect to Upper and Lower Canada, in oiviugthem an Act whereby they Ihavc the powsr oi legislating for the peace, wellare, and good government of the couii- |try. If the Act of 1 * PI is to be considered a solemn contract, to which three parties have been Jconsenti' "t, -amaly the Parliament of tireat Britain and the two Legislatures of the two Icolonics, are the Committee, to understand that those clauses ^' hich relate to the reserva- Itiou of land for the clerg . . and which form part and parcel of that solemn compact, it is pot iuthe power of the Parliament to change ? — In that respect I verily believe that the Par- lament has tl)e power of changing that part of it v hich has reference to t< e lands; these ad some other matters ai'e specially reserved in the A(!t. 5*upposing it be admitted that the Act of 1791 had the character of a formal compact, do lott mean to state it as your opinion, that with a view to the t enetit of those provinces, it h uot constitutionallv in the power of t'ie Parliament of Great Britain, to legislate upon the P"''j''it of the government ot the ( -anadas ? — As to the power I do not deny it. The right nay \sv questioned, and the expediency is more tlian doubtful. l)o you attach the same importance which one of tlie former witnesses did to the neces- sity of having an agent in this country for the colony of LoWer Canada ? — I tliiuk it most pscntially necessary, iuasmncb as Great Britain has reser^'ed to itself the right of rcfl^ula- !>»; Our commerce, that there should be an agent here to attend to the interests o\ th^ OIODV. » How II i %v ■•i^\\ 17t MirOJTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE . . .... How do you think that ag^ent should be appointed ?— By the Legislature of tlie "*l''«nuire. colony- ^ .1 J [ ^ Do you mean by both branches of the Legislature ? — The truth is, tliat no Act makiDc IS Juni 18U8. prousion for the appointment of an a^ent can take place without the consent of the three Branches. The agents, {jenei ally speaking, M'ho represent some of the colonies, haveheen nominated by the representative assemblies. If any gi'eat objection were made to the au- ))ointment, one might be {^pointed by the Assembly, and the other by the Lef^islative Council, so that the cou-itt'y would have the benefit of two agents instead of one; but! verily believe that the Assembly would not consent to the payment of an agent, of whom they had not the choice. There are certain items of charge of salaries to individuals to the payment of which the Assembly have objected, as considering that the situations filled by those individuals are un. necessary ; are you of opinion thatif those salaries were discontinued, and those situations done away with at the expiration of the lives of tiie parties holding those salaries, there would bo any disposition on the part of the Assembly to pay them during the lives of the parties* — The Assembly i)ave already done so in some instances, when it was required of them - and I verily believe that they would have no objection to convert these salaries intopen^ tiions ; for myself I should decidedly vote for it; I verily believe there would be no objet,. ion, provided tliat all the other grievances were removed. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 17S -f.' Subbati, 14 « . die Junii, 1828. The Rev. Crosbie Morgell, called in ; and Examined. Tha RtT. Crotbte MorgtH, WERE yw Chaplain to the Bishop of Quebec ?— I was. How long were you resident in Canada? — From the month of June 1826 to the month ^ ofDecember 1827. j^ j^^^^ ^^^ Were vou chaplain to the Bishop of Quebec the whole of that period ? — I was ; I went out with his Lordsliip from tliis countrj'. Had you any opportunity during' your residence in Canada of becoming personally ao- fliaiated witii the ecclesiastical condition of those provinces ? — I had every opportunity, ttixraouthsof the time that I '-as resident with the bishop I was employed in travelling through the Country; we performed two summer and one winter visitation ; in the course of those joumies we visited every clergyman in the diocese, excepting five in Lower Canada and eleven in Upper Canada. Wlien we were not occupied in visitation ther^ was continual correspondence going on, through me, between the bishop and the clei^y. How many clergymen did you actually visit in each province ? — Twenty-two in Lower- Canada and twenty-five in Upper Canada. Have you got any memorandum of the actual residence of the clergymen whom you vi- litedin Lo*er Canada ? — It is stated in the Report of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. The station of each clergyman will be found in the synopsis of the society's missionaries and catcchists. Cau you explain to the Committee the manner in which those clergy in Lower Canada ire paid? — They receive, with, Iti^ink, two exceptions, a salary of 200/. while in priests orders ; as deacons only 100/. ; their drafts being honoured in this countrv by the treasurer of tke Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts ; and, in speaking of ■ the vlerij^y of Canada, I beg leiive to say, that all my information respecting them refers to those in the service of that society. Have they any other advantages besides the receipt of that 200/. a y^ar ? — They have fees on marriages, burials, and notl.ing else. Tiiese fees in the country parts seldom, I imagine, exceed 20/. yearly r at Montreal and at Quebec they amount to a larger sum. There are some fewcler'jymeninCanada w!o are not paid by the society. The rector of Montreal, the rector of Quebec, and t'le militsiry chaplains, d«.'rive their incomes from ot'er sources. In Upper Canada all the clergy, except tl.e military and naval chaplains, are paid in the way I state. > Do tlie clergy in Lower Canada reside on glebe, that is to say, do they reside on any part or portion of the clergy reserves ? — They may perliaps rent a lot, but they are not autho> rized, as clorpy, to reside upon any such glebe lands. Then they reside in the most convenient position which thev can find with respect to fieir several congregations? — They do ; first, with respect to thoir c''urch,and next with respect to the con^egations which they are directed to visit, and which may be at consi- d«rable distances trom the church. With respect ^o the churches ; at whose expense have those churciies been erected ?— A few of the leading people in a settlement who are desirous of having amongst tliem a resi* * dent clergyman ofthe Church of England, draw up a petition, addressed to the Bishop of Quebec,in which they state the circumstance. This is generally accompanied by a pro- posal to build a church if their wishes respecting a clergyman are complied with ; then fol- low the names ofthe persons who are willing to become subacribera to ti.at churcii ; if t'lere is a sufficient sum, the Bishop of Quebec, from the fund w. ich he himself raised in this country, promises them 100/. wiien thechurch,as it is expressed in thatcountry, is closed ia, namely, wiiea tiie boards, of which the sides are composed, are put up. < ./ ' 174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOKE SELECT COMMITTEE "^^ J^"' Had you tHe means of ascertainingtJienumberof persons who usually attended the cor- 14 June 1828. »*■; « -".' ' gregations ofthose ministers of the Church of England so located in the country ?— -In * Lower Canada there are two different descriptions of country in which our clerg^y reside. In one the great mass of the people are Roman Catholics ; throughout this Roman Catho. lie population is scattered a great number of persons who are adherents of t!ie Church of England. Many of them are at very great distances from each other, and irom tiie clergy. men of the diKtrict, and perhaps raa\ not be able to come to chnrch with any degree of re- gularity. Wherever a certain nuniber of tliera are to be found in any one spot, the clor^y. man goes and officiates. His residence is commonly among the larger proportion. Such congregations in the country places, although there mav be several of tuem, are small. I think that there ure not more than four clergymen so situated in Lower Canada. There is indeed one at Three Rivers, but Three Rivers is a town, and contains a consi'^erable Pro. testant populrtion ; there is one also at William Henry, which likewise is a U •. n similarly Bituatea. Of the foui I have alluded to one lies in the district of Gaspe, one at Riviere du Loupt and tha other at tht rivr of L'Assomption, the fourth at Cliambly. In these parts the population is, witli few exceptions, French Roman Catholics, and therefore our clergy have notatanyone time such large congregations as clnewhcre. But I have said that in Lo«er Canada there is another description of population : it is found to the south of Quebec. The district is generallv designated the Eastern Townships. Here the population is non-Ro- man Catholic, and is composed chiefly of en^igrants from the United Sti^tes, Our con- gregations in those parts generally amount to from 150 to 200 on an ayerage. In the sparing and in the autumn they do not amount to any thing like that number, owing to the bad state of the roads in those seasons ; the snow in the autumn not being sufficiently deep and trodden dQwnto enable people to pass alon^r;andin the spring the gradual melting of tne snow produces the same effect; But there i> a general mode of ascertaining the congr«gation, which is applicable in a general way to almost every country, as far as our church is concerned. It is this ; discoveiv the number of communicants, M'hich is very e^ilv ascertained ; multiply that number by six, and yon have the congregation ; and t! at multiplied again by two » ill give you the number of adherents to the church. Now, in o^der to s!iow that this is a right calculation, I wontd instance one case; I take that of St. Andrew's, in Lo^vt•y Canada In a late report from tliis mission the communicants ar« stated at 32; that number multiplied by si% will show the congregation ; that is, it nill give 192. Do you mean to apply that calculation to both theCanadiis ? — Yes, to both the Cana- das ; and I should go further and apply it, in a general v,a.\, to Great Britain, as far as my eifperlence goes. Do those clergymen make any circuits for the pnr|)ose of dispensing reliffions instruc- tion at a distance from their actual residence ? — On the Sunday they officiate in the church to which they are licensed. Besides this duty, unless tliere is an equal congrega- tion assembled in the evening in that particular church, they are required to go to a dis- tance of five or six, or sometimes ten miles, in order to serve another congregation. In addition to this duty they officiate during the week at certain fixed preaching places, at vhich notice is previously given v hen the roads are passable. But sometimes for a fort- night or longer our clergy cannot reach such remote congregations., I know that some of the Canadian clergy officiate at six diitrit^t places regulajly, some at more than two, but all at two ; ai^d besides they are called continually to very considerable distances in order to perform funerals, and to administer the sacraments. They obe> tiie suiiunons of persons of any denomination. Taking tlie calculation with which you have furnished the Committee, what is the ro- Bult of that calculfltion as giving the niunber of adherents to the Church of England in the province of Upper Canada ? — Perhaps I cannot explain the matter better thiui by refer- ring to the statement respecting the number of commuiiicants in the settlement of Perth, a military settlement in Upper Canada, as it is given in tlie last year's Report of the So- ciety for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foveign Parts. I select this vane because 1 re- ceived a few days since a letter, dated the 21st of Aj)ril, from the Bishop of Quebec, in which his Lordship mentions the relative population of tliat place. We find in the report that the number of communicants in that mission is 163 ; multiply this nunibpr by six and it will give you a congregation or congi-etfations of 978 ; mnltipiT his nuniber by two, and you have the real numl)er of adherents of the CSmrcli of England in that particubr nlacc^ which ia l,9ijn, accordiujjf to the calculation. ' " ■ Not ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA in Nov in the letter I have mentioned, V.^e bishop of Quebec xtates, that the Episcopalian! j^^ ^^^ io the Perth settlements are 2,158. This number compared M'ith that obtained by CroMe MorgtlK my calculation doc¬ exhibit any considerable difference, and proves the calcnla-,— . -^^ ...-^ tiou to be a fair one for all practical purposes, I take the case of Perth, because the 14 Junt 1891. bishop of Quebec happens to havestated the relative population of that settlement to me iu a letter which I received a few daysago, and because it confirms my calculation. { Have )0u any means of informin^r the Committee what the aggre rican Presbyterians exist, although there are in the place two resident kirk ministers. What church had the people been connected with previously to their joining your church ? — Of every possible description of denomination. Persons coming from every county in Ireland, and from every county in England and Scotland, many from the United States necessarily bring with them a multitude of religioos opiaious ; and no one deuonunation # m J'" ' I ^1 •w ^, \ ' 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 'i f:. The Rev denomination being sufficiently strong to support a minister, they are sure to adopt geoe. Croibie 3iorgell,^^y ^^y '^^^^'^^^ whose clergy are not chargeable to them, provided only you give tl-e •^ -.' ohurc.ii which you establisli sufficient time to take root among t! em. li Junt Ig28. Does any particular form of worship prevail with them ? — I think that until one of our clergymen has been establiKbed amongst them, they are Methodists cliieily. Wliat description of Methodists? — Not Wesleyan Methodists, accortung to our idea in this country. They are in country places most wild in tlieif religious worsliip, they faare camp meetings constantly : during which tliev will stay out in the woods for a whole week, and continue theii* religious exercises, praying, singing and preaching the whole time' night and day. Tiiey call themselves Episcopal Methodists. What system of church government liave they ? — Tliey have a person who calls himself * a bishop, having derived that order from the hands of Wesley originally. Wesley, if I re. collect right, sent out a number of persons, whom he BtyleA bishops, to America. Such a bisliop presides over adistrict : there are several preachers and lay-assistants under bin, Hare they any constant communication with the Americans in the United States?— They have hitherto always had connection with tlie American Methodists of the United States. But of late I perceive from a document to which I have had access, that they hare begun to withdraw from that connection. It is very desirable that they should do so, for they are certainly, notwit standing tl eir wildnoss and extravagance in many respects, the most useful and most numerous sect in Upper Canada. Have they chiefly emigrat«>d from England ? — No ; they have come chiefly from the United States. They have gradually increased in Canada ever since the country has been opened. The first settlers may have been churchmen, or of other denominations, and ai they have died awav, their children have adopted tlic persuasion of the itinerant preacben, being the only form of religion within their reach. Are those persons to be found all through Upper Canada ? — They are. There are a few of tlie old settlements where the people ai'c Lutherans, and Qualiers. Some Scotch settle- ments are Presb . t(>rians. Of the population of Upper Canada do you believe that a large portion has come from tlio United States ? — Till the last emigrations by far the greatest pait of the old settlen were from the United States. Most or" thein were loyalists after the American rcbcllioB, In t'le account you have given ofthe prevalence of this particular description of dissen. ters, do you mean it to be understood that they are coU'ined principally to the eastern townships in Lower Canada ? — No. They ai'e to be found in almost every part of botli provinces. There the » have decreased, because our ministers have been so long in thow Mttlements. , Then you mean that they are to be found o^'er Upper Canada? — Over Upper Canaija, and tl.ose in the eastern townships, wlio do not belong to our commuuion,are generally Me> thodists. T/iere are, indeed, some fe*v Baptists. Do those persons whom > ou desoribeas being willing toattend the worsl'.ip ofthe Church of England, after dchm'ch has been establis'ed in t oir neigl.bourhood, cease to maintain any communication witli their own ministers and cease to attend their meetings ?- No,tiiej ' will attend preaching of aujMiescription. Not so our comnuuiicants, theyadliere to us, and will not attend any other ministrations. But here I would beg leave to remark, that there are few or no regular ministers thrmighout t!te country besides those or' the Church of Ea- gland. The rest, excepting a small number in Upper (\inada are itinerants But the others, though they will attend your service, still continue connected witi their own ministers V — It depends upon what they are. The Meti.odists often keep up their connection with their own people, an« the Ajaerican Presbyterian M'ill attenttiu, but all the time say that he ha*' not d4!>^rted his own churc! . thungh he may communi- cate with us. There are, however, bat a very small nn»l)er of the American Presbytei rians ; an*^ they, in fact, in cowntry settlements remaii adherents of our churcli, aud : elsewhere, ♦ill an American Presbyterian minister is established among them, who i« brou^'ht in from tbe United K»atrs. Ls; country places they i-annot support such a mi- nister, and ♦bus thtae (tou, perhaps, much longer. In each of those paces there are Pres- byterian coniirc/i'utions, and in each of them our people exceed considerably the Prcsby- tcriau congregation. At Montreal the wealthiest of our congregation were originally ' Presbyti^rians, but t'ey liave from the first conformed 4ind adhered to the Church of En- jtlaud, and have not returned to the kirk, although there are two meeting houses in the place. At Cornwall our congregation so much exceeds tUe Presbyterian congregation, tnat it is well known the Scotch minister could not find sufficient support to live there, « did he not Iiold the government-school establishment in the place. He has only one con- gren;ation to servo, whereas our missionaiy includes among tliose who prolit by his mi- nistrations upwartls of 850 souls. At Kiirgston, nhich is a peculiar case, there is a minis- ter of onrs 3 iJ a minister of the Scotch kirk; and, as a proof that the Presbyterians from the United States will not coalesce with the Presbyterians from Scotland, It is ob- servable t''at the form<>r have got in a preacher of tiieir own from the United States, I find our congregiition is double as large, I am given to understand, as either of them. I Bill not say that it is larger than both together^ tiiough I have heard it asserted. At I Montreal it is precisely the same ; American Presbyterians have obtained a minister fi oni jlhe United States. Those facts tend to show that if some few native ScOtcttmen should return to their national church on the coming of one of its ministers among them, our church w oiild not suffer by the circumstance; Are the United States Methodists Calvinists ? — No, vely much opposed to Calvinism^ in the ordinaiy sense of the term, and for that reason the American Methodists will not Iwiite with any Presbyterians, nor the Presl>yterians with them. There are no two ho- pes of Christians more opposed to each other than the Presbyterians of Cauadii, who I ire Calvinists, and the Methodists who are altogether Anti-Calvinists. Are they Armiuians ? — They are strictly Arminians, and very controversial in respect I rf their doctrines* Do you consider all the denominations of Presbyterians to be Calvinistick ? — 1 do. Their |tat?chisms and other formulie appear to me to be so; Dp the Presbyterians whom you describe as conforming to the worship of the Church jtifEngland continue Calvinists after they conform ? — I tl.'ink tHey migl t not perhaps be liiispleased if the clergy broac' ed Calvinistic doctrines : but • am not a^^ifre that they do; Iw there is no other form of worsliip that thtse Presbyterians like so well, they attend Tlieir ministrations. Hi« that state of things a tendency to incline the ministers to the adoption of Calvin- pstiik doctrine ?— I think not. Are the Committee to understand that there are to your knowledge but three Pres- yt>.fiaa ministers of the Church of Scotland in Lower Canada? — I think there arc but T««) two at Montreal and one at Qucb«e. 1 ^». i>m w 1 1 ii it 1 : T' The Cr-.shi.- , '. 14 Jtino FKv. IH'Jit. t i'': \n MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE To the best of your belief, is tlio number you have stated the entire numhnr of Scotch Presbyterian ministers in both the Cunudas ? — To the best of my belief it is. ". -Can \ou state the number of Presbyterian ministers of the otlicr description? — Twelw in Upper Canada; I only know of two in Lower Canada. In Ntatin^r the number of your cuii<>:r(>;rutions and adherents, do you reckon in tliott persons who occasioiiully attend your service but also attend the service of otler churches 'f — Yes, I reckon them amongst the congregations, if they attend with regulai'ity the mi- uistrations of our clergy. Whetiier they attend ot^ier congregations also, or not ? — "Yes. But it is only, save in a few instances, the itinerant preachers, tliey can attend. You consider them as Episcopalians ? — I consider them as attendants upon the luiuij. trations of an Episcopalian, And your calculation with regard to the number of Episcopalians is always to be taken with that understanding? — I think so; because the people know nothing of the Church of England till it has been established some time among them ; and they do not appear to regard an occasional attendance on other forms of worship as incompatible with their connection with that church. Are all the clorgj-meu whom you have enumerated in LoM'er and Upper Canada con» stantly resident ? — I do not know an instance of non-residence. Now and then tlieyget ■ Iftavc to come to England, but it is with great difficulty. After they apply for leave, it takes at least tiiree months before they can attain it, as the sanction of the Board of So- cietv for tlie Propagation of the Gospel must liist be received. Hivve all of tliem churches built, and iu repair ? — Not all, but there are very few who have not. Are the Committee to understand that a minister is sent to a particular district upon a -■ petition of a certain numberof the inhabitants to have a church built, and that the bishop also snb8<^ribes out of a certain fund a certain amount in aid of that object ? — The minis- ter is not sent till the church is finished, Mhich is always built by the people of the neighbourhood. It has otherwise occurred in two cases under particular circumstances. Ti e applicants were our own people, and they had only lately come out from Ireland, having as yet no means of building a church. Before a clergyman or a missionaiy is sent into a particular district, is it necessary to specify that there is any certain number of congregation ready to receive him ?— The bi^ihop judges by the number of persons that sign tiie petition, and the subscription pa- per, lie does not inquire particularly who they are, because be knows verj Mcll that if . our clurch is to take root it must bo first put in the ground. \5uon what principle did tlie society act formerly, M'hen, as you state, theyMwein the habit of sending missionaries without previously requiring the building of a c!urclii wluit M'as then retjuired, before they would send a nussionary ? — I was not connected «i;h Canada at that time. It occurred in tlie time of the late bishop. What is the occupation of those clergy who have no churclie* built ? — -The two I hare alluded to, and there -ai-e oid* two in the diocese, officiate in the school-houses, and wherever they can get a congregation, aud they have iu general as good a congregatiou in the schooi-house as they would have in the church. Have the clergj-men iu Canada generally been educated in England ? — Many of thera have been educated iu England and Ireland. Tliere are 22 in Upper Canada out of 39 who have been educated iu Grejit Britain. The remainder have been educated in the country. They are, I believe, chielly tlie sons of loyalists; men who have mostl receiveii a gratuity from tie society of 50/. a year, to enable them to pursue their studies in divinity. W. at opportunities have t" ey of pursuing studies in divinity in Canada ? — The oppof' tunity they had \v\\ei\ I was there was, that t'ey were ordered to Qrebec, and I used to I lecture them twice a week by the bisiop's direction, it was part of my duty to him. Tbe Archdeacon of Quebec used also to lecture them. Are t' ere any persons in holy orders in Lower and Upper Canada who have prcvioual) been ministers of any other denominations ? — In Lower Canada I know of but oue at Jiii moment; but in Upper Canada there ai'e 10, and there were several applications whi'*' I wa« there. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 170 To what sect did those belongs? — Some were Lutherans, some Scotch dissenters, one kirk clorjfiman, and two Koman Catholic priests. To what ciicumstances do you attribute the cessation of so many clerpfymon from their Cmiftiv jw m church, and their conversion to ours? — I must hope that they are the purest mo-, ^- Thc R own tires, but I cannot dive into mens thoug'hts. One cause, I should imagine, may bei4 Jui)t>, that their people desert them after after having hrouglit them into the country 'vith promises of support; but when they come the> iiud themselves without a means of living. Is any preference given to persons on account of their being converts ? — When a dis- lentin^ minister can sav that a great majority of his congrcgiition will join our worship withbim, heis received, ifqualiKed. It is the case in one instance in Upper Canada, udt^^o in Lower Canada. Under other circumstances, any person applying for holy orders undergoes a severe scrutiny, and certainly has no preference given him because he has previously belonged to another communion. Is thore any difficulty in procuring persons to serve as clergymen in Canada, who hare been educated in the aectrines of the Church of England ? — Certainly, I should lay there is difficulty in procuring them in Great Britain. Is nut that the reason why they have been inducted to take so many persons into the wrvice of the church who have been formerly belonging to other denominations of chris- tians? — When amission becomes vacant it is very desirable to till it up as quickly as possible, and if we were to exclude all who have not been regularly educated in England, we should have to wait several months, and in the mean time sectarians would come in ind perhaps disperse the congregation. Are you acquainted with the practical jurisdiction which the Clergy Corporation cxer- ciM over those lands called the clergy reserves, which were appropriated under the A«!t ef 1791 in Lower Canada ? — In Lower Canada the.v had the power of leasing in 1819 ; aud I happen to know that they were not long since in debt to their secretary. Have you any general idea of the number of adherents of the Church of England in the prormce of Upper Canada ? — I cannot form any idea of it, except from the calculation with Wiiich I have furnished the Committee ; and this is dependant upon a knowledge of the number of communicants in the several missions. What proportion should you say tliey form of the whole population ? — The missiona- ries liave told rae me t at their congregations, except in the French j»:u-ts, amount to be-~ tveen 150 and 200 during tlie time wiien their reads are piissable"; but further informa- tion than that I cannot give respecting tlie number of Episcopalians in the Canadas ; I am not acquainted with the population of the Canadas, but I know that wherever I tra- velled I found persons who belonged to our church, and in many places where no clergy- man had ever penetrated. Are you aware that the House of Assembly m Upper Canada have repeatedly bv a very preat majorit) declared it expedient that tlie clergy reserves should be ai»plicd to the main- tenance of the clergy of all Protestant religious persuasions, and not of tliat of the Cluirch of England exclusively? — I know that such resolutions have appeared in the p'' lie prints; I attribute tliera, in part^to the smallness of the number ot Episcopalians in the House of Assembly, compared wit i the united strength of all denominations in that House. The Houses of Assembly in Canada, like many other colonial Houses of Assembly, are not very well affected towards the Government, and the Church of England being inse- parable from the Goverurae ot, they of coiu*se oppose the Church of England for the sake of onposition to the Government. Was not there a formal vote of the House of Assembly carried by a majority of .37 to 9, that the church of England is the religion of a very small proportion of the population of Upper Canada ? — I do not know, I have not attended nuich to the state ot things in the House of Assembly ; tliere might have been very few persons belonging to our clmrch in the House of Assembly at the time. The House of Assembly is composed of 44 mem- l>ers : of the church of England there are 18 ; of the church of Scotland there are 4 ; the • rest are of various denominations. Do you take that from Archdeacon Strachan's report ? — It is from his speech in hit place as a legislative counoUor, and I believe the statement. Do not you knoif Uiat that raport is entirely contradicted by tlie resolutions of the Uouse ? — This is OArthe repoit alluded to ; the cue I hold in my hand ha« arrived witliia tb» — — , i'1 \ • ( . I it Mi i I m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOHE SELECT COMMITTEE ^he Re*. t^« lost ''^w days. The circumstance I attest has l»ecn ktafed at York, where the Asiora. Cr»tbi» MiirgfU, bly niocls. ^— K. ^ Is the Commitfoe to feather from )'our answers that you are very little acfjuaintcd with 14 Junt, 11128. the relative proportionH of the various setts in Upper Canada? — 1 am acquainted with the number whicli attend the ministrations of our o»ii rler^. In tlie visitation you jnade in the upper province did you personally inspect id! thi cliurches where you visited tlie clerpynien ? — Yes, in all rases. In every instaiu;e of the 25 clerjrvhicn whom you visited were they resident and olBcia- tinjf in the church V —Yes, certainly. Are you aware of the circumstances of the 11 others whom you did not visit? — Yon; { should say that they were resident also ; in fact they cannot be otherwise than rnsident. , •• . Is that principle universalljfc^ acted upon in Upper Canatia a? In Lower, of not sniiding a minister till a church is built ? — It is now acted upon in all cases ; there is, liowcvor, one missionary who is employed without laving any specific church; he goes all through tli;; diocese ; I mean the visiting missionary. Exce|)tiiig the fact of tlio iinmher of each conc;regation, you cannot give the Committpt any information of the relative proportion of the adiierents to the Church of Eiigiaiid to any other sect ? — I can in one particular place ; but not generally. The Committee have before them a letter, signed by Mr. llyerson, who is the ayeiit «,. in this country for the Christians of ditfcrent denominations in Upper Canada ; in his lettor lie states, amongst ot'ier t' ings, t' at the ai is an enormous expense compared with the receipts. Is there any payment to the Oleiyy Corporation themselves, or to the secretary ?-A salary is given to the secretary, and a certain sum is allowed each member of the corpo- ration for his expenses in coming from a distance to attend the annual meeting ; nothing is allowed to those resident where it is held ; biit there is not a single clergyman spp-. ported by the reserves, or that netts as such a sixpence fiom the reserves. Are the Committee to Understand that the expenses of the collection have in Lower Canada amounted to above 100 per cent upon the rental of the clei^ reserves ?— I kno« ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Ill ain what Unit that tlie Clnrpry Cornorjition in Lower Canada wore in t'lo debt of their ncrrci&ry, a few J^^^ p^^, pounds, after t'lo balun«;(' wan «triiiponcoramo('itio8 roiisumed in Upper M June, is^fl. Caiiaaa K-vidl iMidruliecti'd in Lower (V.iiada ? — 1 ho duties N'vicd in Lower f'aiiada are upon all ^<»nds iinpoitod at tlu* port ol" Quebec destined for Upper and Lower Canada. Would it lie possilde to devise any nirans of separatin;; the poods destined for tlio con» flfunption of Upput I conceive that a mode raig t be easily established wherehy I^pper Canada Mould tax iieclf on tlic introductiun of goods imported iu that country, by the establituhmeut of custom-houses or by a s' stem of drawbacks. Will you describe in what mode on think the first course you have suggested could be carried into efTect ? — T"o modes miglit be ado])ted ; the one by warehousing in the first iustaiit;e all goods destined for U^pper Canada, either at Quebec or Montreal ; and to ex. cnipt them fnmi payment of duty when taken out, upon certificate of their introduction into Upper Canada, tliere entered and the duties jjuid: the other, b allowing^ K drawback of duties on all goods introdnted into Upper Canada from Lower Canada. Do you thiid< that any adequate seeurity could be taken to prevent such goods from beiugsmuir(rl,.(| into consumption in Lower Canada, in their transit from the bonded warehouse to the confines of Upper Canada V — Yes. Will you have t .e goodness to exphiin in wliat mode you would carry into effect the second course you liave suggested, namely, that of levying upon t e froatiera of Upper Canada duties \v r)n the goods that were introduced ? — To currv into etfect the sccunii mode I have suir^ested, it would bo necessary that an understanding should subsist be- twee the Legisiatiu-e of the two Provinces. (loods imported into Upper Cauada from the Lower Province should b.i entitled to debenture upon proof of entry. By the same Operation, and wit out any additional expense, t e s;unp, or other duties mi^'ht belaid at the nhiioof entrv, at t c discretion ot the Legislature of Upper Cauada. Would not the ^vhole process connected wit'i this drawback be extremely injurious And ti'oublesonie to commerce ? -It would be very simple ; formerly there was an otficer st.xtioned at Ceit^au du La<% paiil by both i)roA incos, wiiose duty it was to take a correct account of ever articic passing- throuuh that post for Upper Canada, upon which an esti» in:tte was made (>f tlie f|iiautuni of drawback which was to be allowed to that proviiuf, By adojitingt'ie same system no\'', yon might correctly ascertain the amount of dnuv- bacl\ on i>oods llat)le to diity. I see no dilliculty whatever iu making the arranifement. Is the frontier betwe^ni tlie two j>rovinces easily guarded by custom-houses .' — Yes, the neck of land b«'tween the one river and the other is about 2i miles. Are there not duties eolleited upon rum going into U^pper Canada? — The priniipal jwrt of the reveinie of Lower Canada is raised njion rum and wines, and little of tlicra are consumed in Upper Canada, where they now manufacture large quautitics of spirits, tionu- of which is s nt to Lower Canada for sale. What aretlie good ; passing- into Upper Canada which are liable to duty ; — All goods upon which duty is paul on importation in Lower Canada ; but the largest amount is of British mauufaetured goods ; dry goods. Would it not l»e necessary .'tccurately to ascertain the quantities of tliose goods passiiig into Upper Canada ? — Most assuredly. ' f^ , Would not that be inconvenient ? — So ; because from the nature of the country, itii •tvu-ccly possible to take goods up there without passing- through the locks at the Coteau du Lac ; the navigation is such, tliat it would be attended with great expense to deviate from that course. It is at the locks w here the custom-house is established. In the winter season the facilities of introducing goods into Upper Cauada without stopping at the custom-house are much greater ; but if individuals had no interest in the duties to bi drawn back, they might ue very correctly ascertained, they would have no temptation to smuggle. All British mannfartnred goods are subject to duty of two and a hali' Pf' •cnt ad valorem on their iraportatJun iuto Lower Canada. X)« f H I: ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 188 Do you think that either of thoso luo.U'S whlvti you have montio;>p(l would ho npofcra- ^,, bleto the sy.stcni whirli lias Immmi litcly hi1<»])(imI by not of P.iHianiont, of tliviilinir tlio diitirj» colhH'tijd l»<'t\vi?«'ii the t»o provinct's r — f think flit? systfiii ofdrawhiu'k wouiil he, ]iri'J't'ral>l<' ; hecausc in tho importioniiicnt ot tlie aiuoimt of duties to ('jmut (.'nimda, 1 14 think tlu'iv has hcoii <>r«'.«t iii)iistic«' to Lower Canada ; iu n great uioaMire Lo.vcr Canada contriliiites to the exjx'iiso.s of I'ltpcr Ciuiada. Will you state iiimn what unmnd von I 'link injustice has hcon done to Lowrr Canada ■ the division? — Bccan.-e the rstunate is made upon the iinioiint of rovenue, and the tlin Cii I ddf June, lti;^«. Pi; 111 itronortion alio" od to rjiper Canada h.is been foii:ided upon i?.> pojinlatlon ; now thu iabit;ht be taxed in the same way or differently, according to the disposition of tlie Lejrisluturo of Upper Canada : the rest is mere matter of detail, which M'ould beetisily arran<>;od. Then you think that poods mifflit jfo into Upper (!anada duty free, althouirli they hiul been charirod with duty in Lower Canada, provided ouly that that duty was wholly drawn back? — Certainly. Suppose that any commodity imported into Lo''er Canada, and subject to duty, became in Lower Canada a subject of manufacture ; as for instaiu-e, snjipose that upon the importa- tion of horse hair, that horse hair was mnniifactiired into brus.cs ; if t lose lirushes were imported into Copper Canada, how would it be possible to draw back the duty V — There are scarcely any manufactures in Lower Canada, and there cannot be an- to an extent for a considerable time; it is strictly an nf>ricultural country; it can never become a Dianufact tiring one even if tlic dominion were chan perfect and equal auvantiige to every part of the couiitn*. Tlierc arc many other reivsons which were stated on the part of the Lo« cr Province, iu a . letter to the Under Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, in 1823, which I think unnecessary to repeat at present ; but assuredly the feelinrive from that measure. , * Tlie object, I understand, of having a port of entry, is to enable Uppei Canada to tax her- - . self; now nothing ismore easy if she is inclined to do so, than the mode I have suggested Are there not complaints of many persons in Canada, with respect to the possession of 1>ropert,y bv the (Government which formerly belonged to the Jesuits ? — Complaints have . . . )pcn v«'ry loud on that subject ; they complain that the sources of education that had beeu left to tno country before the conauesthave been destroyed, and t';ey have no perniaueot ^ tiiean.'^ of education left them but from tlieir own personal means. In what way do titev undertake to show that the property held by the Jesuits, and di?- iributed by thoiu as they pleased, was applied to general purposes of education ? — Those people could not hold property for their own use, or distribute it as they pleased ; it wm ^ * - ' vrijjfiaally (p-anted to theiu by the French King and iudividuali for the purppses of •qiiir«. that t!'.ey raiffht bo cmj)'© ed for the purposes of e'hicatiou in Caimdii. They built a yry _^ j^ — ^ extensive college in Quebec, which is now used as barracks, the revenues of t..ose estates u June i^aa. arr now very cotisidcrublc, and we do not know what beccmies of them. Do you happen to know what took place «ith reference to those lands upon the expul- lion of the Jesuits? — They Mere taken posssesion of b} the local authorities iu Canada, lod are still held bv thera. When were the Jesuits expelled ? — The order of Jesuits, I believe, was exting^uishcd ia Earopeinl774. In what way have tbe'proceeds of tlie Jesuits estates been cmpIo\ cd since ? — They were lenerally employed in the colony, before the conqtiest, for the purposes of education ; the conquest however put an end to the hif^her branches of education in Canada ; they not" withstantlin^r kept a school in Quebec after tlie conquest ; they had schools in other parts of the province, but they also subsequently became extinct. Do ^ou happen to know whether the estates of the Jesuits in France that were confisca- ted in t e same way, were applied to the purposes of education ? — They were em- ployed ill Fran(;e, I understand, tor the purposes oi education uuder otiicr authorities and teachers, accordinnfto their primitive destination. Has the Assembly frequently called for an account of the proceeds of those estates?— The Assembly did call before a Committee of that body one of the commissioners, and he refuted to jjive any information whatever respecting^ t ose estates, v. e foresaw that it might create considerable difficulty to make use of the powerof t' e House at that time to compel this gentleman to make a declaration of it ; the Hou«e in some measure did not press it, «e rather hoped for better times, and waived the exercise of a particular right for tht time. Did the Jesuits retain any influence over the management and application of the proceeds of those estates aftertlie conquest ? — They had a control and management of their estates, exrepting the college, till the death ofthelastof tie order. When did that take place ? — I do not now exactly recollect the time, I think it was ia ISOI. From that time tot' :e present have the Government been wholly in possession of t^a proceedsof those estates? — Thev have; and they are very valuable estates. There is one iu particular, the 8eu(neuTy of La Prairie, « hich is completely settled, a very populous parish in the couuty I represent, per!at class of persons would the Assembly propose to give t'le direction and admioistratiou of those funds ?— I believe t!' at no specific proposition of that nature has - ^Mnmade, but it is a matter of detail that might be easily settled; they noiJoubt intended t e revenues of those estates to be applied to the education of youth geoeralljr, flitbovt di*> tiactioa of religion or classes, as far as the original titles would permit. f; r^ 4 }i Ml ^1 *• m n$ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Martis, 17®. die Jvnii, 1828. ...orated listconsistsof 300, and the management of the society is in those ; there is aho an associated list, wl ich consists of about 4,000. When was tliis society fii-st formed ? — In the year 1701. ■< Has it a charter ? — The charter was gi'anted b . King William. .; Does it publish an annual report of its proceedings ? — It does. What funds has it V — It has certain funds now vested in public securities, the produce of collections and bcv^'ipsts, amounting to between 4,000/. and 5000/. a ) car. Voluntary s uli- scriptions, amouuting in the last year to about 7,000/., and assistance from Parliament, amounting to aboiit 15,000/. Are the 300 persons whom you have described to be the managers all clergymen 'r— ^ No. What portion of them are clerg men ? — Much the largest proportion. Docs that comprehend all the bishops ? — All the English bishops, but not necessarily so. W: at is the qiuilification which is necessary in order to entitle a pei-son to become one of t'e iucurporated members ? — As vacancies o.icur in the list, they aie proposed and elected ly ballot. Are they all necessarily subscribers ? — They are, they cannoi subscribe less than two guineas. What salary have you as secretary ? — M) salary is 180/. a year ; but I have an allowance for house rent besides. With respect to tlie Canadtis, what duties docs t' is society perform ? — The supervision of the clergy, the correspondence with them, and the appointment of them, and tic pay- ment of them. What control have they over them P— TUey have the control which tV.c power of the ptirse gives generally. Has not the bishop an episcopal control ? — He has. ' When you mentioned tne parliamentary assistance which the society receives, did you I include in the grant which is made specially for the Canadas ? — I aid. I think that a- I mojnts to 7,000/. out of the 15,000/. I Docs the control of the society extend only to the North American Coloniegr ? — It I does. la what way has tlie number of clergymen for Upper and Lower Canada been decided .. upon *h V 1^ 188 MINIATES OF EVIDENCE liEFORE SELECT c6mmITTEE cty to scud out misMonnriw upon ?— Accordlnjf to the meann of the «o«netv to support tlipm ; it would be Tory muck TbP H»T. enlarged if the meaiw of tho 80 ou in many instan«!es received it ? — I should say not, in Canada ; in several in- stances, in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, wo have. Some yeare since, a grant of 2,000/. was placed at the disposal of the Bishop of Qiu'bcc; and t e paper delivered in exhibits a statement of the manner in which 1,300/. of that sum vas appropriated in as- sisting the erection of 20 churches, from July 1821 to December 122 k Have you any reason to believe that the grant made b> the society towards the huildinif of c urchea is ever a considerable larger proportion than one fifth of the amount actually "* expended ? - I should say uot, certuinly. By \(-hom is the estimate furnis'ed r — By the people tliemselves, throug'h the mission* ary or the bishop. Can you furnish tlate Corimittee with an exact account of the sums granted to'^atii building churches in Canada in eachoftiie last five years, specifying the amount granted in each case )— I eould furnish that. , . ^ ' h ?— I should ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. It» TouW von ft'so furiiisli an account of the escimatcd expense of building oaili church ?— The Tl^». Kot «jf eaih churc^ liut I could of Rome. ^w/// Ht,.,„toH If you can furnish the estinintrin some instances, why cannot you in all ? — Because we' , ^ ^- have it not retiirnoJ to us ; wc niako tho jfraat upon the recommendation offlio bishop. Have the society any fixed principle in apportioninjf t le sums they ^rant for the build- ^ inj of churches? — They vary ac«.-ording to the «ants of the place ; I sliould not gay there U any tixed principle. Can you say what istheamonnt they usually pfrant? — From 50/. to 100/. iiiid they have l^ntf d as much as 200/. in particular cases ; but I kno» no instance in Ciumda in wiich tbcv have granted 200/. lias t'.e whole of that sum been expended ? — It has. Arc t'ere returns of the expenditure ? — There has been a return of tliif* 2,0001. I« there also a return of t'.e sums alleged to he expended in individiiiil cases ?-:- Yes ; in every case it is certified by the bishop ; the bishop draws for the money Is any money {(ranted towards building parsonage houses? — Not in Can xia. Can yon state out of w'at funds they arc built ? — They are built in genenil by the suhr ifriptions of tlie people. Ilave the society had any income from tlie clergy reserves? — None at all ; tlie society liave nothing to do with them. What portion of the grant of Parliament is applied to\«ards the maintenance of the tlfrjry hi Canada V — .£7,000 is voted, and a niucn larger sum tluin that is distributed ; in Caiia^la no separate accounts are kept, in reference to the several accounts; a separate account for each inflividuul missionary is entered in the treasurer's book. Couhl von state n-hat proportion of it is applied to Cauada ? — No doubt the whole of the 7,(M)()1. is, and much more. Could you furnish the Committee «>ith t*>e annual returns of the expense of the society for the last five years ? — Yes, it is published every year. According to what rule do you decide the salary tnat shall be paid to each clergyman in CinadaV — The average of t'le salaries is 2001 a year, t'ere arc very few instances in which t ey exceed or are below t!.at. In deciding whet^ier the salaries shall amount to 2001. a year, or less, have you reference I to tlie amount of tlic congregation ? — No, it was considered that 2001. a year was the least sum t :at any clergyman could live upon witi) any degree of respectability. The Committee lave seen a report at the proceedings of the society, in which they ob- IsTvcd several columns ; one contained a specification of the salary paid to the clergy aian. Hid t:iere was also another column headed, " A Return of the Population of each Parish,'' It at column was entirely blank ; can you state whether the missionaries have been un- UWe to furnish returns of the number of the Protestant population of their districts ? — In |»omL> Instances t'leyhave done it, but it is extremely dimcult. Docs that profess to be the Protestant population generally, including all dissenters ? I -Yim. Ill what wa^' do you define the district in which each clergjTnan exercises his functions ; liithprc any thing in the nature of a parochial division ? — None in Canada ; it lias beei^ Inusidercd as a great defect that suc'i a division has not taken place, it has not been for hunt of representations on that subject ; in Nova Scotia and in New Brunswick thecoun- Itr ift diriacd into parishes. I Do you know whether they I'ave any payments from fees ? — They have surplice fees, Ibnt they are very moderate, their extent is not known ; they may be considerable in the |hr;;e towns, such as Kingston and York. Do the subscriptions of the society increase or decrease ? — Increase. Hare vou difHculty in procuring English clergymen to serve in Canada at the salary l^on j[ive ? — I should' say not ; we have a great many applications at tins moment before I I I the only difficulty we have is in finding means to support le money that you apply for tlie support of clergyi them, I 11. • A^n. ■ Of the money that you apply h the mission- ■,!,,... „,.J ^i». „ ' ^i^, lergymen in Canada, do you think hbat the greater proportion comes from the Government grants, or from private subscrip-; pioD ?— I should think t'lat a large portion is from Government grants, oecause 15,5001. grant from Government, exceeds the sum total of the other resources of the society, ounting to 11,0001. or 12,0001. Does \4 i1 M: ' I* Ii>f) MINI IKS or i: viur.xi E iiriioiin select committke rtu- Picv. Dors f!i(« lii,!ioii of <,>it«'!i('c in liis commiini'ijiiKtis >ifli t!ip sorii't.Vj or with tlio r.nl,. ^>'r''J ^'inl 'li>>> hinMiiriil lioard, >l.itc lli.it if tlim" w,;.s a '.'''•'iif*''* «»|»l»<""Hiiiif df <'ii(lo>' iii;r «hun; «• , an.l ''. J luou' |"'<'"iii«"'y iiKMiiK of .«ii|)|il yiii^' ( It'tyymcil, t «'n' floes oxiNt ii (Iniiuiid in fhat touiifrvlur ' « liT;',ytiu'ii «tf tlic ( liimlj of Eii;rlaiiil ;* — No doiilit, lie han ri'iM'iitcd it offi'ii, nmJ Sir Ter.. fri'iiic M:iitlii!i'l liiis s.iiil till' .'■(UK* tliiii;.'' in liis roiiiDiiinitatioii.s with (iovi-niiiii'iit. l\ii.'-itlM' liislioit say so wit . n>;,Mrd to hotli C'anudiut ? — llt'snyHit wit!i rcfercncf tn liotli. Art' t «' rlmn-Iifs in ('an.ida lit jtrosoiit aliniidantl Niipidiod wit'i c'orjifynion r— N.,, vo iiavc rcpcaU'd uj>|il'fatioiis for iiioro »li'r<,'yiii«Mi, but we liiive not iuouuh to s\\\i\mn thcni. Ar(> Jiny of the rliuro'. 68 witliout ministers? — A great many clergr men serve to or tliree elmrdicN. N\oiiid it III' possIMoto ' jivc :i!iri"coMMt of tlio-ic ? — Yes. May I !)«• allo'od t(» olixirvc, I ihiit in tile iirst inslance I ili>j>ni0 I am itssitri'd tlii:liti% delcriive; ineasnrrK have Iieen |trej>arinnf to ;five iiifornintion of a very sn|M'rior KinltM t!i« ConiMiittee, and (!iat inforniatiiin is daily expected from the bishop of (jneltee. With tin! iicru'issinn oftlie Coniniittee I will make an observation nnon the snltject oftlh' «li'r;;> reserves, v. itii rcVjiect imtli tot « qnestion of right and the qnestiou of e.\|M'i!i. euoy. Do yon V.uvw \\]\n\ is held bytlie cbMyy •" this country upon the subject of the rlrrjv reserves ? It has fnrn;ed asniiject ofeonversatimi vor. frequently, and they cousidur that tlie ri^Iit of the elcr;,'. of t!ie ('lim\h of Ennlaadin tlie Caiiiidas is exclusive. Do \ on a'tpiy yoin- arxninents pi Ineipally to the expodiem y of haviu^ rehVions inVinu. tions ^irovitlnl for in one way or anotlier, rather than to the cxpedien«7 of providing A r them in the partienlarniethod pointed out in the Act of Parliament ? — Yes. Do X oji tliink t e havlii;,' an exclusive elmrch would tend to promote peace and harmocy uniotia: the poimIati«in at larire ? — I should thinij so. l-'veii amon/r the rreiidi Canadians ? No, t!;c circumstances of the case are Idtal'y different. Are yon aware tliat petitions, very nuineronsly bijrnod, have been presented from Itoth Caiiadas a;i'ainst an exdnsiv chun-h, and that the Ilonso of Asseuildy of I'pper (';uiai|« have b a very lar;,'e ni.ijority pa.-ised resolutions to the same «'IIe<:t ?— I do not think tlut is conclusive ag'arnjrt t e feclliij of tli.' people in favor of the c urch. Mr. Jumcs ^ fiarlea Grant, called in; and Examined. * Are you a native of ('.ina(!a ? — I am. Have yon .ome over fo Enirland for the purpose of representing^ the views of aiiy ite of persons in tliat country ? — Yes, I have come to represent tlie claims of the I'rcsly- terians. Arc yon of the Church of Scotland ? — Yes, • - * Are therein Upper Canada many persons rlcnominatod Presb) terians who differ from the Ciiurcli of Scotland ? — There are many who are not in communion with the Church of Scotland. Can yon state th(( nnniber of each class ? — No, it is impossible to :ymen of the Church of Scotland to settle in that country ; I am only possessed of general information received from the differfnt parts of the country ; but those who are considered as Scottish seceders in that prorincf, would join in communion with the Chinch of Scotland if it was established there. In the opinionof most persons it is conceived to be established by law, but it has not been so | viewed by the colonial (Tovernment. Is there any class of Prcsbv terians in Upper Canada who have originated from the Unit- ed States ? — There is. ... . . ~ p tlio IVi'lf. lire V , and I'oiiiitrv liir lid Mr iiTt. lit. rt'tVrciu'^ III ■nion V — N", H to suiijiori orvc to or (\ t(» olixi rvf, ,n'u of exjit'tli. of tlic rlrriv >• cousulcr th»l ijifious instnii. f providing fcr c aiul harmouy ISO are tdtal'y itcd from Itoth l,'|)])i'r Cimailn not think tlut \vs of any idi'n>il us :i m>|) mit)' rl.nH. "' Would th"y atti'oil t!n' siuni' |»l.ici' of «Mrl)>ti'naiin ? — I ran- 17 not niintk from my own knovv!t>d/i> ; Itnt from tlio inforniatioa ri'tvivrd from dit1i'ri>nt ptrM of I'lijK'r Cuiiada, I have n>:is(»n to tliink that nil » ho are att.u-hcd to tin* IVvshy* lifiuH form of worship wonid join flH'clinreh of Scothiixl. |)i) you know w. ether tliui dill'tT in doctrine ur in discipline ? — Not in doctrine, I Iflit've. Huve « on liroii'^'lit over a petiticni fron« I'pper Canada !' — TIip petition which I l)rony' t iiv.'r with nie is I presume, liefore the Conioiitlee ; it is fioni Lower Cunada, hot it niinHtrtsto lieon behalf of Kotli ; tliis jtetition is Niirned liy some persittm in I'pper ( 'anada ; aiiotlitr petition was to havo heen transmitted tu me from I'pper (i.ii.ida, but i I nve not yet rtM-ei veil it. What do yon represent on b<'half of t' e pefitioneni ? — The petition nets forth tlie «!aim oftliP l'r<">hyterians to a ]iurtion of th(? revenue arising; from the cler;ry rcserveH, whicli have been set apart for the support of the IVotestant cli'ry:y in tliit country. The object (lithe petitimi i.s to obtain a poriiuncnt provision for t e support ut' der^rynicu of t o Church of Scotlan*!. ^ What is the uninber of siy-nalnres to thttt petition ? — I'pwards of I.DOO. *** Are many of tliose in Upper Canada ? — I cannot say what number or proportion of tl.o •t'fitioners reside iu Upper Canada ; there are many wl o reside in that Province. lluve you any <;;oueral notion of what the nnmbor.s oft c Pnttestaut population of Lower Canada are ? — I Huppose the number in Lower Canada may amount to between 60,(KK) and 8(),0<)(). Have you any notion uliat nnmher of tliat population arc members of tiie Churcli of Eiiiland ? — The <»nly means I have of jud;,'in;f of the comparative numbers, is ilerived frniu the returns tliat have been made to sonu' questions t' at were sent to ditferent parts ofthe I'r(»testant settlements, to respectable persons that were supposed to be competent to irive information upon t e subject. Much excitement and discussion arose in ( auada last autumn, in consequence of the publication of an ecclesiastical chart and letter, pur- portiiiff to ffive a statistical account of reli:land in Lower Canada? — I caniiot say exactly, but I believe t'le Presbyterians are reble in number of the Episcopalians. What is t e proportion in Upper Canaila ? — It Is very diflicult to answer that ques- on, but I imagine that there also tho^e deuoDunatious will bear the same relative pro- ortion. Mr. V. — ^^ Junt is^i. , • 191 MINUTES OF r.VinKNCE BKFOllK SELECT COMMITTl.K ■'' ffH. • 4;J t^jf Do ynn fi>i>l i^iiite t;oiiii'l«*iit thnt netihor in Uiijicr nor in Lotv(>r Cuiinda tlio ini>mlM>n 7 C C.Kini. of tlic'dlinrc I of Knjflaiid are o not lipcn v<>r> productive hitherto. Do you knotv what HUin tlicv liav«* produced annually?— I bi'litivc not exceed! ite estaidished cliurchen of (Jreat Britain always conceiveil tliat wlirn ' those Jands became productive they M'ould participate in tlie revenue arisin;r (Voni nuih reserves ; and >he appearance of an advertisement, announcing; tlie formation of thin cor* poration, first excited their alarm, and induced them to look more nnrroM'ly into the m- tuttion of their relij^ious establishmcntti. In nhat year was that ? — In the year I8W. Not only nmon;; Presbyterians thnnsrlvn, but I may say it was the /generally received opinion in the country that they hud a l(>;,'al daim to a portion of t' ose rovenuen. Do the Presbyterians of Lower Canada conceive that the Church of En<;laud and tlifro- selves have tlie exclusive right to the property of those revenues, or would tl ey admit other descriptions of Protestants to share in them? — They conceive that accordiii treal and one in Quebec ; can you inform t!te Committee whether there are any othen that are permanently established ?— There are but two congregations in Montreal that arQ under the ministration of three clergymen in communion witn the Church of Scotliuid; there is one under the ministration of a clergyman in communion with the presbytery of I New York. In Quebec there is but one congregation, under the ministration of a cler- gyman in communion with the Church of Scotland ; there is another iu communion witli a presbytery in some part of the United States. Are there any other congregations in Lower Canada?— In Taripus settlements the Pres- bvterians are numerous, and congregations would k^ formed if there were clcrgj ineu pro- 1 vided for them. From whot do vou conclude that they would be formed 'r — From the desire the inbabi- touts have manifested, aud tlie applications they have m.4e for clcrg} men. Art | ON TUB CIVIL (iOVEHNMENT OF CANADA. 19S Mr. C ii'onl. Are tl)rri> uthor Preabytfriaii niiiiii«terN uftlio Cdiirfh of ^^-otlunii^rt*|rutiniiN f — Yen, tlii*r«> ure two in Muiitroal, m Tin K«t to Hft- juiniii); crtttemontfl, uiTaaionully to |H>rfurin survivr; for tlio »«ttl«ni iu tlie iiiiiui'iliMt« vi- (inity of tiic town. Are th«'r^ »n\ othvn in I^wcr Caniuln ? — In Lowor f'Rnadii, not that I know of. " ''*'"•• ""** What iH tli(> nnmlu'r of Pronhytt-rian miniNtrnt oHiciatinff who have not rr^ulur con^re* fxtionn't — I Itulievfl thcrv are ahoiit live in 1 1 pp«*r C)inain- uiuniun with t''C (.'hurcli of Scotland ; and I HU)i|)nf«> there would be '^0 more coii(rre)ni« (ioiu I'orini'd in tliut provint'o if there were clergymen provided for the Kettlcwenta whera thfir HtTvicep uro required. Cau yon apecify t none five ? — There is one at Kinffnton, Mr. Maehar ; Mr. IJr(|nhart., It (!oniwali, Mr. Mackenzie at WilJianiatown, Mr. Connell at Martin Town, and Mr. Shi-ed ut Ani-aater. ('^(11 you StatA tlie number of (-onjfrefratiouH and alno of ofliciatindf muiiHten* in Cpper CaimdaV — I cannot Mtate from my own knowledtre, but 1 can relat<^ the information rtH-rived from different parts of Upper Canada in answer to the qiieri«-8 that were ti'ananiit- Ird. In the western diatriotof llmier Canada there arc about 8,()(K) iiihabitantH alto(;ether, 3,j<)0uf whom arc Roman Catholu-N and -(..jIM) IVoteiiUuta ; one half of the ProtfAtant po< piiUion arc Niippotied to prefer the Presbyterian fonn of ^* ''r ^ip. The diMttict of Nia|>-u> r.t U Hiipposed to contain u population of about *^u,(M)(), three>r.> rthaof whom are suppoaed tu lie PrcHb terianB, and attached to that form of woiitliip; tb' .e are eiuht I*reHbyteriaa r'urchps erected within that district, but no S«-otrh cler^ryuun ; the nuniber of Episcopa* luiiH is very aniall. The salariea that are provided fo** lie niiiMNtera v y frotu Ml. to 1(K)/. The miniatcrs who ofticiate in thoHe clinrcps ..ic in ronu<" iuii with American jircithyterie!!. v !'h tlie exception of one at Niagara, a Mr. Fr.' or, who is a 8cotch aece- M. In tb« .4ij.rict of n.ilhiirNt, the pop'ilation amonntH to itb< ' t 12,000, they are chieHy from Scotland, and the majority of t em arc Preabyteriana , there are three conjrrega* tioi, under the luiiiiHtration of cier^inen of the Scotch aeceuiion that ofliciate within that dutrirt. Tliia diatrict luia been aettled within the lant ]2 ^eaiH, and the inhabitants in gnierul are too poor to contribute towarda the support of clerj^ynien. Do the caiiaea for the aeiwration between the aeced<>rs and other IVeab* teriaiis aud the Church of Scotland which exiat in Scotland exist alao in Amerita? — Those causes do nol rxist in the Canadati; the cler^^ymen of the Scotch aectesaion in Upper Canada are formed lato a nresbytery, and at a late meeting they rcaolved that the causes of ditlercnce w.ich haro divided Preabyterians in Scotland are locally inapplicable in the colonies, aiid ex- prrsMcd their willin^fiieas to join the Church of Scotland. 1 am iu possession of the reao> lutious, and Mill band them into the Committee if it is desired. Do you suppose that in case of the eatablishmcnt of a Presbyterian clcrprv in Canada, th(Koij in those tour to- asliips returns of the respective places of worshii) ? — j' jf^ 17 June 1828. QQt f^^ present remember ; but 1 believe t!;at service is performed at Lochiel, Williims. town and other places. Are you aware whether t!!ere is an v Episcopalian church in any of those four toTrn- ships ? — 1 am nut aware of any. Are there any diHsenter^ in those townships ? — No ; in feet tho«e totvnsliips are princi. pally inhabited by Scotch ; the townsliips of Cornwall and Uoxbnrgb contain a total popula- tion of 2,918, and there are 1,128 Preslyrterians. Are any of the clergy reserves leased in those townships ? — I cannot say whethor there are; I presume, however, that some have been leased, inasmuch as those townships are welt settled ; and consequently it is probable f hat those lands have been taken up. iiow are the flinds provided by which those peopltt build t^eir churches and pay their ministers? — By voluntary contribution, and in most of the ne* settlements tiic people are poor, and have not the means of providing sufficiently for a clergyman. Do you know what is the ordinarj- expense lu the newly settled townships of building a wooden church capable of containing from 150 to 200 persons? — Between 100/. to 200/. 1 do not mean a permanent building, but one which would answer every purpose for a few years ; a more substimtial building would cost probably 500/. Do they derive any assistance iu building those churches from any other quarter?— None whatever. Do you know the proportions of persons from different ports of the united empire which Cevail among the eraigrautH that come iu ? — Emigration proceeds principally n-om Scot- nd and frelaud. Have the General Assembly of Scotland never furnished any assistance towards the building of churches ? — They have not furnished any ; I presume they have none at their disposal. » You have stated that the salaries of ttie ministers are inadequate ? — I have stated that in some of the townships tirst settled, and in which the inhabitants are more *7ealthy than those in the more recent settlements, the salaries that are paid to the clergymen vary from .50/. to 100/. a year, which is not considered sufficient for t!'.eir support; and no presby- t<>ry of the Church of Scotland will ordain a minister for any parish unless there i& a sii/- ticicnt stipend provided. What do they consider a sufficient stipend ? — There is no fixed sum, but 150/. or 200/. a year would be an adequate provision. How are the clei^ymen at Montreal paid? — By voluntary contribution. What may be the amount of their income ?— I doubt whether they receive more tbn 200/. each per annum, whicb is as much as their congregations can conveniently afford to pay, notwithstanding that most of the wealth of t .e country is concentrated in the towns. Should rou say that generalb' in a country circumstanced as Canada is, you conceive that the religious wants of the country are better provided for by voluntary contribution!, or by funds derived from setting aside a certain portion of the soil of the country for the support of the clergy ? — The people in genera! are too poor to provide in a sufficiont • manner by voluntary contribution for the sjipport of clergymen ; in such a country, while in its infancy, they neccssari^ require assistance from some ot^er source. Do you think tiat under all circumstances it n^ouid be necessary to set aside acer« tain portion of the soil for the support of the religion in t' e Canadas ? — I cannot say that it would bo necessai'y to set aside a portion of the soil, bnt I think it would be proi per that some provisiou should be made for the support of religrion, in that or some othei manner.. Do you think that there would be a sufficient provision from the reserves for the clW« gymen when civilization was in a more adwincea state, as it is in some parts of ITpper Canada? — Yes; although the lands that h&ve been set apart for the maintenance ofthe clerny have not been hitherto very productive, if still retained for that purpose, fJloM laiKN must evcnfimily become very valUabte, bnt ia the meav time some pitmBioir (fiif.^ to b« afibrded from oii^er funds. An K^^'l.: t 150/. or 200/. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 105 Ar« you aware that ccrtaiu resolutions were passed ia the AMcmbly of Upper Cana- da, aMerting a right in the AHdeinbly of coiiti-olling the funds arisinff from the vhtrgy re- •^■ Mr. C. Grant. wires, fc^i also asserting tiiat it would be expedient for the benefit of the colony to ap ply those funds not only to tlie support of reliffion, but also to that of education? — I '"^ •''"'• ***•' am nut aware that they asserted the ri<,'ht of controlling the revenue arising from thoso laii'ls. I have untlcrHtood that resolutions such as those last mentioned bare been recent- ly «tloptelitjesty, both of which I hare in my pos- lerion. Did the Pixjsby terians of the Church of Scotland in the Assembly, concur in the second resolution which hsis been mentioned ? — I cannot say ; it is only from vague report that I have understood tliat lesolutions of that tenor had been adopted by the Assemuly in Up- per Canada during the lust session ; but I can say that not only the Presbyterians, but all ot!»er denominations of Christians in t'^at province adopted resolutions in favour of tlie claim of the Cliurch of Scotland to those reserves in 1884, and I liave the petition, predicated upon those resolutions, to lay before t<'e Committee. Is it t'le general opinion of the Presbyterian Church, that the management of those eler^ reserves should be left to the Legislature of the province ? — I cannot say what their opinion is in that respect ; b.it t presume that the Frovincial Legislature could not, nor can control the revenue arising from those lands, except under therestriction provided by the Act of the Slst Geo. 3, c. 31. Arc you not aware of a part of that Act which authorizes the Provincial Assembly to interfere ? — It does to a certain extent, but I conccMve that all enactments made by the Provincial Legislature upon that subject, would be subject to such restrictions, and could produce no effect until tlie same sliould have received His Miyesty's assent, after having been previously laid before both Houses of Parliament in Great Britain The House of /^mbly of Upper Canada, in 1823 or 1824, adopted the resolutions I have already men- tioned in favour of the Chiurch of Scotland, those resolutions were sent up to the Le- -^slative Council for their concurrence. But the Legislative Council haviiig reixised to adopt those resolutions, the Assembly of Upper Canada petitioned His Majesty on behalf of the Presbyterians; I hold a copy of tiiat petition in my hand, and with the pemus8i<.n of the Committee I shall read it < • *. [The same was read as follows :] ' ' r. - - >: «* to the King's Most Excallent Majesty. " Most Gracious Sovereign. "WE your Mjyesty's dutiful and loyai subjects, the Commons of Upper Canada in iVovincitd Parliament assembled, mo.«t humbly beg leave to approach your Majesty, and to submit to your Majesty's most gracious consideration our caniost supplications in be- half of the clei^y and members of the Established Churr^h of Scotland, in this portion of jour dominions. Wlicn the kingdoms of England and Scotland were (happily for both) united under the British Crown, the subjects of each were placed on a footing of re- ciprocity, diey were to enjoy a full communication of every right, privilege, anu ad- vantagfe, and their respective churches were established as "true Protestant Church- es," within their particular limits ; the clergy of both might therefore reasonably expect equally to participate in the benefits which might result from the union. Viewing the conquest of these provinces from the dominion of France, by the united exertions of Great Britain and Ireland as one great advantage resulting from the union, we humbly conceive that the Churches of England and Scotland had, after such conauest, equal rights as to the exercise and enjoyment of their respective reli^oiu privileges tnere- in, and an equid claim to enjoy any advantages or support which might be derived from the newly acquired territory. By an Act passed in the thirty-first year of the reign of our late revered So ?reign, whose memory will long live in our hearts, an appropriation is au- thorized to be made of one seventh of the lands of the provinco for the support and mainte- iians* I ■•; I ' ^ I >ii'. ! f p5 'U 106 MINUTflS OF EViDENCa BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE j^l, nance of a Protestant Cl*!rjr» in tliis Province ; and under the general words, " A Pro. J. C. (irunt. testant Clerjjfy," iist-d iuthat Act, your Majesty's Hubjccts in this province, who belong and ^ are particularly attache^l to the t^fiurch of .Scothiud.fondl. hoped that a provision had \mn 17 June, i8t28. made for the cierg« of that church, as well as for ti>ose of the Church uf Enfl^land, aud thou<;h the allotment of land*i thus authorized has hit'.erto been in ^reat measure unprci- ductive, thej felta de^jree of coutideuce that it would eventually afford a fair support to the cler/jfy of both Churches. The lands reserved under the said Act beinf? claiin(>d and enjoyed exclusively for the support and maintenance of the Clerjfy of the Church of En- gland in this province, Tve humbly entreat your Majesty's consideration of the subject, and if in theleg^al construction of tlie said Act it is cou idered that no provision for the Clen-y of the Church of Scotland was couteniphited thereby, we would most respectfully and ear. nestly express to your Majesty our hope that your Majesty will bo graciously pleased to extend to them your royal protection and consideration, by directing such provision to be made for their maintenance and support as to your Majesty may appear proper. That your Majesty may long reign in the coutiJeuce and affection of all your subjects, to guard and secure their rights in every portion of your widely extended dominions, is the prayer of your Majesty 's faithful subjects the Commons of Upper Canada. (signed) " Levius P. Sherwood, " Commons House of Assembly, Speaker." fith Jany. 182*." • . Do you know by what number that petition was Voted iu the House of Assembly ?— In the Legislative Council there were six against, and five for the adoption of those resolup tioiis. Looking at the clergy reserves merely as a question of property, independently of appro- priation, do you apprehend that t ey have l)een unprodurtively managed by the tloi^ • Corporation ? — I conceive that those lands might I'ave produced more, ifa dittereut course had been adopted in regard to them. Are you not of opinion tliat their existence in their present form, without any reference tothcirappropriation, is prejudicial to the interests of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada?— It is conceived that they are prejudicial ; but I believe thatif longer leases were granted of those lands, and if the corporation or whatever person or persons wl o is or are to have t e management of them, were compelled to perform the labour tlial^s required to be performed by the persons holding lands contiguoiLs to those of other persons (the e.v pense of^'hich might be defrayed out of the proceeds of the sale of a portioa io niis^ a fund for that purpose), those reserves woulu not produce the injury they do at present. Are you not of opinion, that if part of those reserves were sold, and their proceeds ap- plied for the making of roads, and for t e prevention of those iuconveniences *"> liicli result from their being left waste, that the remainder would be inniutely more valuable than the whr.il* are under their present circumstances ? — I cannot say whei..or that wouUl be the case or not, because they are so dispersed and scattered ; if those lands were set apart in a block or any particular section of the connti7, and a portion of that section was sold, and the money applied to the improvement of t c remainder, it would enhance their value; but the reserves are scattered through the different settlements. Are you not of opinion that the sale of those scattered lots "hich are mixed up with tliat part of th«' country which is now settled, would be desirable, leaving t -e proceeds to be dis- posed of in such manner as might he determined upon ? — I think su, tiiough I do not con- cei ve the present to be a favourable time to dispose of them. If it be deemed expedient to have a provision in land for the support of any clergy, do you think that provision might more aa vantageously he given in large blacks, than it > oiild be by scattering them in that manner throughout the country ? — The setting apart of smh lands wful I not be so injurious to the settlement of the country generally, as the ma.uer in which they are scattered over the country at present; but I cannot say that such pro- vision would be more advantageous for those for whose benefit it is proposedto be nude, than that which already exists. Are you aware that a bill was brought into the House of Commons in the year 1826, au- thorizing the sale of 1*30,000 acres per annum, of those reserves, and that the sale wt» \fft to the discretion of the Governor in Council ? — Yes. ' Do you consider that advantage will accrue to the Canndas from that system being acted upon? — I think that it nould be advantageous tothe eolouies. 1* m ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMSNT OF CANADA. 191 .' iX tnne In it your opinion t' at the estahliHhmeutnraprpvailinj^and exnliMive church of thedoo- ne and discipline oftlie Oiiirch of England, in b'>th provinceH of (Janadii, would contri- /. biitetothc prosperity and happiness oft one colonies ?— >I do not; the people in (^eueral^— are attached to tne Presbytcnun and other forms. 17 Juor, When you say that the neople in ironeral are attached to the Prcshvterian form, is it your opinion that it would bo desirable to jrive that chur^jh ai»y exclusive pririle^e ? — My opinion is, that no church in the counti7 oujirht to be dominant, or possess political or other powprs -^hic*) mis Hur prrmortion of the Presbyterian population attend the ministers of the Church of Enqfiiind ? — lu t e cities of Quebec and Montreal some persons brought up to the Scotch rhurciijoined that of Ensfland, attim(-s vvien those cities were not provided with pastors, iiid having married and hiid their children christened in that church some may have since a'lhercd to it, while other persons may have conformed to that church from ' interest. In liOwer (^anada, (particularly amon(|f tiie Protestant part of the population), as well as in the Upper Province, the Church of England ha^ been made the avenue to office ; and it is also probable that some may attend service in the Church of Eutrland in those parts of the coun- try where there are no ministers except of the Church of England. or the other sects which should you sav, from your knowledge of the country, is the most predominant ?-~-The Metliodists and Baptists in Upper Canada. Do you mean the Wesleyan Methodistx r — The Metnodists generally ; I cannot say that the Wesleyansare more numerous than the other. The Committee understand that you are a lawyer ? — I am. 1^0 you reside at Montreal ? — I do. ^ . •/ Has your business lain much amonjr the Kng^lish townships ?•— A good deal. Have you long had opportunities of observing the working of the present system of lavrs in the province of Lower Canada ? — Tne last 14 or 15 years I have. Should you say that, generally, the great mass of the population was satisfied with that irstem of laws?— Tiiey are with the system generally. Does that obser\'ation apply to the popuuitinu of t^e townsliips, as well as to what has been callod the French population of Lower Canada ? — The complaints that I have heard from the inhabitants of the townships did not refer to the general system of lawg ; those per- sons complain more of the present system by which those laws are administered, the re- mot«uess of their situation, and the great ditficulty of access to the courts of justice, and other circumstances. Do you conceive that it would be necessary, in any alterations that are made by the Par- liament of t'tis country in the state of the laws of Lower Canada, to proceed with the great - Mt caution ? — I do, and should be sorry to see the system of laws changed I do not think that a general change could be effected without materially injuring the rights of subjects in that country. Ro you extend that observation to the townships, as well as to the seigneuries ?— I do ; the principal objections I have heard from persons in the townships related to the tenure, buttliat question has been set at rest by the Canada Tenures Act. The inadequacy of the road laws in respect to the town&hips, and the want of offices for the registration of all mortj^es and hypotheques on real estate, have also been the subject of frequent com- plaints on the part of the inhabitants of tSe townships. What should you say generally was the system of la^s in force in the English town- aj'ips V-~Tbe English laws are in effect with respect to ti.e title of landed estates, but I be- lieve that the la^v8 of Canada generally have governed that portion as well as the other parts of the province. Do you consider that the Declaratory Act merely referred to the tenure of landed propertv ?-^I am not prepared to give an answer to this question at the present moment, but all doubts respecting the laws governing real property are removed oy the Tenures Act. Do you consider that advantage or disadvantage has resulted ft-om that Declaratory Act m the townships ? — I cannot say that any disadvantage has resulted from it ; I believe that the people who reside in that part of the country are satisfied. 4.0 you distinguish the law of tenure from tlie law of descent ?— Yes ; the English laws of descent, as affecting those lands, may and ought to be altered. Therefore, Mr. C. Grant, f?1 1»M. 'Iv I Kir. J. C a rant. jNI m MINUT^e OF EVIDENCE BEFORE 8ELECT COMMITTEE I^fireiWo, though the tenure may he rflcfulated by the free and common aoocttfrehw, thf dMcent may not Ix^ accordiaif to the law ofprimogfeniture ? — Under the present law- those I(^lds must descend unvording to tlic lawg of En;^rland. ' ; — '^ » Would the people be satisncd witli that ?— I cannot say with respect to that : I thiuL I7.f..ne, i8-!8.t^,ey wouW not. Is it your opinion that the English population in the tonnships, who you say prefer the tenure of free and coraroon soncage to t e French tenure, would prefer to have the ie.<. oentof land aecordiug to the French, or according to tite Ennfli.sh system ? — In niyopiaiou not according to t^'O English system ; I think they would bo adverse to the law of pri- mogeniture, but t'ley would prefer the descent according to the laws of Canada, by which ohildren inherit eauiMly. I'o *ou think tney would prefer the English law of conveyancing to the laws with re;fard to nnntations of property under the French systena ? — There are few notaries resident iu tiiat part of the couotiy. In Lower Canada lands are conveyed by an instruinttnt executed lieforc notaries ; but lam of opinion that tiie lands >iold in free and common soccage mi^ht be conveyed with ecfual facility in the townships as they are conveyed iu Upper Canada, by a deed of bargain and sale, if provision was made for the euregistratiou of deeds, as in the latter province. Do not the inhabitants of the townships object to that part ot the French lawVbidi afiect« real property and mortgages ? — They do object to those laws which create mortgages ami liens upon real property. The Canadian system of law is au excellent one, but like oil other aystem9> it luus its defects. Do not they also object totlie law affecting personal property ? — I have not heard ob- jections made to those laws that I remember. VVI'at is the la-v of descent in Upper Canada ? — I believe there has been a provincial Act vai-ying t':e law of England in that respect, but of this I am not certain ; I know Uiat A bill for that purpose was introduced, and panscd the Assembly twice or thiice, bnt 1 am not certain wliether it became a law or not. Snppowng that tlie Canada Tenures Act was found to produce injury to persons who had received deeds or transfers under the Freuch forms prior to the Declaratory Act, mijfht not a»y inconvenience from such bond fide trp,nsactions, in your opinion, be removed by a bill giving validity to deeds passed under the Freuch forms prior to that Declaratory Act ?— Undoubtedly. Would not you tldak it convenient tliat such transfers should be registered within a li- ntited time for the purpose of giving them validity ? — Not for purpose of giving validity to such deeds. Are not register oflUces much wanted in the towncihips ? — They are. !>» you thiul: that tlie scattered state of the population in the townships presents any gr»«ter oltstaoJeto the establishment of register offices than in Upper Canada, or iu any other Devljr settled country? — I think not. Have you in your possession any representations which have been made by the town- sjiips complaining of grievances whic') they consider themselves as sustaining ? — I Imvo not ; I am aware thatthoy have petitioned the Provincial Legislature frequently. In yowr opinion, does the difficulty of borrowing money upon landed security iu the townships of Lower Canada arise from the general scarcity of money, or from a defect in the law as to givii^g security for money so borrowed ? — There is not much capital in CV nada, but I believe that it is o\'ing to a defect of the law that money cannot be borrowed , upon lauded sflcurity in any part of Lower Canada ; capital could be procured both from EngkiiMl aT)d from the United States if the repayment of it could be secured upon landed efttate. Would not the registration of mortgages cure that evil to a certain extent ? — That «olild be undoubtedly the effect. Is tbere any difficulty in making out deeds with respect to land in the townships accor- dii^ to the English U«^ ? — I am not aware of any difficulty ; but the deed would, of necetr sity, be longer than under the French form, or by bargain and sale, as iu Upper (^anadii Yoii aaid that the mode of conveytmcing ia Umier Canada is by bargain and sale ?— Ye*. The Comntittse Vhifs been informed that the lorm of conveyance in Lower Canada \i by lease and release ; is that thj» f«ot ?— I hav« executed deeds myself in that form, but it w aot so convsnifiot. Wky f^^ ^m.. ■mi ) ON THfi CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. '■! 1- 199 !-. , aot heard ob- xtent ?— Tliat Why should thoy havendopteit that form rather than t^^e form of bargain and sale P— <^^ Becanse doubts were entertained by somo as to the legality of deeds by bargain and sate j. c. Grant. executed in Lower Canada ; the transfer of property in the townstiips has freijnentty {msied< — a^ without any regular form, or by an instrument drawn by the parties themselves. 17 June, isas. Do you see any reason why it should not be by bargain and sale ? — No other than that nojrovision is made in Lower Canada for the enrolment of such deeds. Do you consider that the statute of Henry the Eighth, making it necessary to enrol a lar^n and sale, applies to Canada ? — Doubts were entertained upon t le subject in the colony till the passing of the Canada Tenures Act ; anterior to that event it was my prae^ tice, whenever consulted respecting the conveyance of lands situated in the townships, to advise the execution of the transfer both according to the French and according to the Elfish form. Do >ou know the nature of fie law relating to a dicrit volontaire ?— Yes. Do you consider it as affording a practical substitute for the system of registration ? — !Yo ; the provincial statute, passed to facilitate sheriffs sales, interposed greater obstacles to bringing property to sale than the pre-existing laws ; but the statute for the iKcril vo- hntaire has lately expired. Can you describe tne distinction that subsists between the French tenure of frane aleu sndtho English free and common soccage ? — There is little difference between the franc aim roturier and the English free and common soccage ; in fact, I see none, except with respect to the law of descent. With regard to thefranc aleu noble, the laws of inheritance are also different from the laws of England ; the eldest sou would be entitled to an additi- onal proportion above the other children. Then the la^v of descent is different in both eases from the English law ? — Yes. Are there rates levied in Lower Canada, and applied to local purposes, of the same cha- racter as county rates in this country ? — No. In point of ikct then, it is the proceeds of the duties of customs that are applied to local punioses in Lower Canada ? — Hitherto that has been (he case. When sheriffs are appointed in Lower Canada is security taken ? — I have always un- di^rstood that security was taken, and I believe the quantum was settled by the judges ge- rally. It has been stated to the Committee, that in cottsequeace of the difficulty of knowing whether real property was charged with mortgage or not, resort has be^ bad to stieriff's sales as the best moans of establisfcing a good title, is that so ? — It is so. Would the system of registration render that to a great degree unnecessary f— Altogether unnecessary. Do you entertain an opinion highly favourable to the system of registration ? — I do ; it would prevent a great many frauds, and would iiave the effect of introducing capital into the country. Do you consider that the salaries of the judges and other pnMio officers in Lower Ca- nada, taking into consideration the means of living there, are too high ? — With respect to the judges, I think, by no means ; I am not awar* of any office to which a s*'*"!/ '* **" tacked that is disproportionate; there may be soine, but I mtt not avt'are of any. Ti e du- ties of tlie judges are very arduous, and it is not to be expected that any gentleman in the profession, who is propeffy qualified, would accept the offi<;e of the judge if the salary w as reduced belmv the present amount. Supposing the consequence of the Declaratory Act bteing enforced tohe, to iilter tl)e \itw of descent as a necessary consequence, should you conceive that to be a beneficially tfr- rangenient ^vith regard to property in Lower Canada-? — I do not think so. /-re yon of opinion that it would be practicable, accor(fing to the present geographical dfrisions between the two provinces, to establish a system of customs in Upper Canada, so Bto aBtow Upper Canada ta raise a revenue npon goods imported, independently of t'^e province of Lower Canada, in which the port is situated V — In my opinion it would ke afflcnlt to establish it in snch a way as to prevent smuggling to a consiclerable extent. Hate yon turned your attention very much to these siilgects ? — I have not; buf I know that the coitmiunicJrtion by the St. Lawrence, and more certainly by tiio Ottawa, would afford facilities for smog^lrng. Do yon hnagine tibat ta be the gwieual opinion ?— I cwMJot siiy (hat I hav* heard- any fpinioni expressed upon the subject. Aro ' t m* too MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECTCOMMITTEE j/^. Are ymi of opinion that the proposition of a lef^Hlative union would be likely to do awnv J C. (iranl. « it h many practical dilHcultioH arising in ronHoqucnce uf the scpara.e iutert>>«tK of the t»o ^ h — —^ provinces? — I cannot say; it is conceived by many, that it would have the effect of re- 17 June, 1828. movintrdiiTiculties in the collection of the revenue. What do you conceive to l>e tlie {reneral feclinjf npou the subject ?-^I think the ^eu?. ral feeling' would, be a^instthe meavure, ccrtiiioly t e luajority of the people in Lot>or Canada would be an^ainat it. What would be the feelinjj with respect to a sort of confess of the two provinces, in order to dfrect those concerns tliat are common to both provinces, leaving tlie Lepslaturen of both provinues to act in those matters iu which they are each distinctly interested Im- probably there would be less objection to that; but I cannot say what would be the feelin" in Upper Canada respect! njf the first proposition; upon a former occasion, the opinion they expressed «as, that t'ey would be perfectly satisfied with whatever migi.t be ()ou« upon that subject by the Imperial Legislature, What is your opinion as to the law <»f descent of property from father to son; do \oti think it the best system that the land sliould be divided araonnr all the children ?— Un. doubtedlt that is the general feelint^, not only in all the British colonies, but in evert part of America, Do you think that it should be made compulsory, and that the father should be prevent- ed from leaving' the land as he pleivses ?-;^No, that vi ouid be impolitic indeed. Then you would wish to provide, tiiat if a person died iutetitute hjs lauds should be di. vided equally among all his children ?^^ There is a contrariety of opinion upon the policy of the law in that respect ; but for myself I think it M'ould be more equitable that it should k BO, particularly if the parent possessed the power of leavinjf his property to whomever he thought proper ; he would take the precHutions which pnidcnce would suggest if he was d^ sirous of transmitting' the whole or any part of iiis estate to any one or more of his own children in particular, or even to a stronger; the inhabitants of tiiosc t;own8:)ips have all some education, and they generally dispose of their property by w ill. In making their will do they usuall> divide it equally amongst all the children ?— Itii difficult to answer that, but, I believe that, generally s-peakipg, t' ey do, In the United States, you are aware t: at the power of devising by will is unrestricted, but t'at if a proprietor dies intestate his property is divided equ.illy among his children ; do vou conceive that to be the best form of law of descent for a country bituatcd like that ?— ido. In stating t'at you think that is the best system, do \ou apply that opiuion only to conn* tries situated as Canada is, or do you think it would apply equally to countries fully peo- pled ? — Not equally so. Do you think it has any tendency to lead to inconvenient subdivisions o.' propertv ?- I think it has a tendency to lead to a more equal and just division of property, and pre- ferable on that account to a system which would vest large tracts of lands ip the luuids of a few. Does not iuconvenience result from the small portion^ in which the land is subdivided in the seigTieuries ? — Inconveiiiencics have resulted from it certainly^ Are tiiey frequent ? — I cannot say that they are. Wliat instances have come to jour knowledge of au iuconvenient subdivision, and what ^ves rise to such subdivisions ?' — I cannot charge my qaemory at present with any instance; it depends upon how the property is acquired ; if acquired by person^ between whom a com- munity of property subsisted after tbe deati' of one of the parents, the children are entity to their proportion' out of the estate, and call upon the surviving parent for their propor- tion, and iu that case the land is divided between the children and the surviving parent; in the division also of real property, among co-heirs, inconvenience may possibly be som^ times experienced, but not of a description to repder apy inteiference on tb« part of the Im- perial Legislature necessary. What is the practice that prevails in Canada with respect to the division of the land; ii < it usually sold and the proceeds divided ; or is it the practice actually to divide the land ? .—It is sometimes actually divided, where it can be done without inconvenience. Is that the most frequent course ? — It is frequently divided. In th^t catte, what happens as to the buildings upon the land ?— They ftre estimated by pt'' lOIit 1 4^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 201 nrestrictcd.but d is subdivided tons appointed for that purpose, and after the land is divided into certain portions, they ilrtw lots, and the one to whose share the property with the buildings upon it falls, upon an (ttiiute beinff made of the value of the buildings, is bound to give a proportion tc each of the other co-heirs. It there not reason, from that statement, to think that the buildings upon a given estate * ' which may be approuriate for one generation become inappropriate for the next generation, utdthat a new set or buildings must be erected upon a smaller scale, and of a different oha- ncter?— In Lower Canada property is generallv disposed of by parents before death by a deed of gift; industrious persons generally acquire the means of purchasing more farms than one, andt^e common practice among the French Canadians is this: when a son at> taiai the age of majority, the parents give him a farm to cultivate for himself, and the pa- tcnal farm is generally disposed of by gift to the last child. When the country becomes more fuUy peopled, must not the inconvenience be more felt ? .It most. Does not that law work throughout the United States, without any inconvenience re- wlting from subdivision ? — I believe it does. Then are not those ill consequences, when they occur in Canada, very much to be as- cribed to the peculiar habits of the Canadian people ? — Yes ; and theji occur more frequent- W among those who are only possessed of one rarm or estate. ' You have mentioned several amendments which you tiJuk it would be desirable to intro- duce in the laws of Canada ; do you think those amendments are likely to be carried into ef- fect if the province is left to itself ? — It is very difficult to answer that question ; those imendments may be carried into effect by the lo<»l Legislature. Do you think it would be advisable for the Imperial Parliament to interfere in those res- pects, under the impression that the province will not of itself make those arrangements 't —With respect to tlio administration of justice, I doubt whether a change will be effected by the Colonial Legislature, from the contrariety of opinions which prevail respecting a sys- tem to be adoptM calculated to provide a remedy to.the existi^ evils ; but I am of opinion that it is not desirable that any change in the laws should be eflwcted by the Imperial Legis- lature. Have not there been bills brought in for the better administration of justice? — There have been bills introduced to effect a change, and a disposition has been manifested, as well by the House of Assembly as by the Legisutive Council, to amend the present system ; but I do not think that those bodies as at present constituted are likely to agree upon any sj s- tem,althou|rli I believe that both are sincere in their endeavours to effect Uie change. Is the difficulty to be attributed merely to the differences between the two parties ? — No, I do not think so. Supposing a person who has been married in this country settles and dies in Canada, lea- Ting property acquired in Canada, would his property be distributed according to the law ofCanaoa or according to the law of England ? — \ suppose the object of the question is to kno« whether property so acquired would fall within the comnmnaute de bien in Canada ; I think it would not: the communaute de bten is regulated by the law of the country where t! e marriage takes place; but I am of opinion that in the case of a person domiciled in Ca- nada who came to England or the United States, and married with an intention of returning to Canada to resume his domicile, the communaute de bien would exist. That is always supposing that there is no marriage contract ? — Of course, it is in tits power of the parties tnemselves, by a contract, to m^e the law to regulate their marriage rifhts; according to the law of Canada the parties may nuke any stipulation in thdr mar- riage coUtract which is not against good morals. Supposing a person purchases an estate in Canada, is the estate subject to dower or not ; the conveyance being according to the form of the law of England ? — I think that all pro- perty in Canada woiud be subject to dower. < Do you ever bar dower ? — No; hut the parties before marriage may bv their marriage contract exclude dower altogether. If the laws of England establish and regulate dower within the townships where lands are held in free and common soccage, an Act of Parlia* ment would be required, with similar enactments to the one in force in Upper Canada, to bar dower. » '^•r^'io-;* rK,4i,*K'. 8 How Afr. J. C. Grant. June 1SS8. i' i I : ' Mw ; <»4»-»fi '; tO'.'ascs land after the marriage, would tliat be sulnect to dower ?— Land so acquired wotiU 17 Jiina IMS. not be subject to dowerunder the laws of Lower Canada; if situated within oie townabiM and that this kws n( England hare been introdnoed there, such Innd, I presume, would U snUeottodonrer, as establis! ed by the hiws of Bngiand. 'Bhe Committee are informed tlurt settlers from Enf^land who are desirous of settling is America are unwilling to acquire property in Loww Canada, from the arenion they hvn to the tenure of land in tbat^roTince ; do yon know whether that is the fhct ? — I hare knows some instances of persons being aTerseto settle in the country ; I cannot nay that their etcn sion arose so much from the tennre^ as the danger and unoertainty of the existence of mort* gages and incumbrances upon property. if an Act were passed 'making it necessary to register all sales and mortoages of land, would not that in a great measure remove that objection ? — As Ifuiid berore, I tbiakit would, hisve the effect of introducing capital into the obunlry, which is very much wsattd. Do you think that there is any thing tlian can be done by the Imperial nurlijunsnt ttiat would femoVie any of the diiBcnlties > ou have mentioned ? — If the qnestion r^rs te tht difficulties resnlting from the wanted register offices, my answer is, thatwitii rsspeette the seigneuries, it would bo difficult to frame a bill for the regulation of register offices; tht subject would reqhire much consideration, and it onght to be framed b/ persons well versi;J in the law of the eonntry. In regard to the tOMuships, a bill migiit be framed upoatbt same principle as the law in force in Upper Canada for the enregistration of deeds, &n. Do you think there is any wish on t e piurt of the towns liament or b . the Provincial Parliament is a question not very important. Is titere a diapontion or an iiidispositioo on the part of the inhabitants of the toniuhi|M of Lower Canana towards the introdiMtion of the jBnghsh law ? — There may be pefMHH among them anxions fbr the introduction of the Englis i law, but t -at of inheritance, as it exists herp, with tlie right of primogeniture, they would all be adrenie to; in fact, soom persons in the tiown8hi]Mi may have prejudices in fisvotar of the laws they have beenaocst- tomed t6. Would thev desire thM red property should not be subject to nmple conti'aet debts? —I do not tinnk they would wish that. Supposing that the law Of primogeniture attached to all the farads in free and cooibmb Boccige, womd not thepoop^e in t po-«er to leave it to w ora they would by will; so that t e law s'tould not take effect except in cas« of 'intestacy 'f-^l cmm>t miy ; they have already the power of di8|>osing of their property by wiH. Do yon thjnk it * ot^ bedefeirableto estid>lysh any system of limited entail ? — Itmight; I understand that is the casein the United States. What power is there of eatatliDg property in the United States ?-~I believe, totlie'ti' cond generation. Have you ever heard persodS'in Canada express a wish that such a power existed there? — No ; they posness t e power of entailing in Lower Canada. In it common to do so ? — It is net uncommon; we have a spedes of entail by substitu* tion. Will rou describe its Ojfleration ?— The testator may leave liis property by «dll tO'any pe^ son, and substitute to such person his children, or any ot'ier person. Are tWere ihatiy snc'i entails ? — Substitutions of property nre frequently jnade by wilt. Has t'tat the effect of taking a considerable prc^ortion of the real ppopt>rt> of the coun* try out of commerce ?— It is not acted upon generallv by the people in t « country. You were understood to state just now that such prac^ce isifrequeutP — It isfreqseot araonn[those who make wills; the FnBooh'Cainadian population in gonerid 'do not deso. Do they generally make marriage ooatracts?— Yes, there is gtnenMf mmmniugt coR' tract. If the Li'^s affecting the land held in free and common soccage were a88imiliti»d miniRtering the laws relating oniy to the tennre, it would be necessary. If the laws of England generally are introduced, regulating all matters in that part of the country, it -oald be necessary to have a separato tribunal. Are not the laws of EugUmd enforced throughout in the townships ? — I cannot say that tkefsre. In what respect do the French laws prevail in the township* ?— Tiie French laws have ge- nerally been administered for tne townships. Has any case arisen since the Declaratory Act, where there has been a descent in conse- «|tieneeof Intestacy ?— No, nor am I aware of any judicial decision by which a division of property was had anterior to the passing of that law in t'le townships; there was always a . dooDt Whether the laws of England or the laws of France ought to prevail in that part of the rtimtrjr. Is t*ie Execnlate OdnEincil, as a court of appeals, m satisfactory judicature to the country If —bis not; lowhatremeiH; is it ni;i8atisfactory ?— In the first olaee the members are not professional Bra, with a few ezcentions. The chief justice of Quebec presides in that court uoon ap- iwids instituted from aecisions in t'leCottrt of Montreal, and the chief justice of Blontreal prtrides over those from the district of Quebec. Wtiat are the objections you have to that arrangement ; is not that better than if each (fnef justice should nt as a court of appeal upon the oases from his own court ? — Itapprox- j inates very much to that, for although they do not preside in the very court in which the aoMS, (the decisions in which they Are called upon to rerise,) were instituted, they preside in one of u corresponding jurisdiction. The members of the Council generally are not pro- I (Inaional men. A tribunal so constituted is ndt calculated to establMh a uniform settled ■ It! i Is there a considerable arrear of business in that court ? — Not in t!:e Court of Appeals beHeTe. I« dierein tfie other conrts ? — Yes that arises from a defect of the system of administering I jntioe; the manner in which the evidence is taken, whicii is in writing, is very tedious, ex- tiaewunerdial cases, the witness examined in court, or by-commission ? — Two of the judges preside on the I Wndi, and the witness is taken aside to a small table «id examined by the advocates inter- (ittd^ each side. * Then there is no decittion given when the evidence is produced ?— No, unless objection > taken to the relevancy of any question that is put. I If there « ere to be a jury introduced in such cases, would not that in some degree short- In the process ?«-^Ittn8, I think it would. Ait Hie pkadinn of coitmel in writi^, cfe vMt voce P— The ailfumeiitB are vivdvoet. Tlti^ lite no wnttm argumenCi ?— No. -ii »: 1 M i«'> i J I tOi MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE '%>; Jovii, 19®. die Junii, 1828. (I Mr. J, C. lirnnt. t • • -^^ '-\ 19 June iSSS. oKlf ,1 Mr. James Charles Grant again called in ; and Examined. ARE you at all acquainted with the Eaatern Townships of th,e Lower Province ?-.] liave not travelled throujjfh those townships, but I have a good deal of busioeu with thi people in that part of the tM>untr3r. Are you acauaiuted with the complaints which the inhabitants of the townships nukt against the oraer of things existing in Canada ?— They have complained, I believe, of \k ystem of administration of justice, the inadequacy ofthe laws respecting roads as affecting t.;e townships, and their having no representation in the Provincial Legislature. Is there a prevailing feeling that the French Canadians wis!i rather to discounge the settling of persons of English origin in the to^nshipa ? — That such a general feeling exiiti may be inferred Irom the addresses presented by the inhabitants of the townships to tU Earl of Dalhoiisie, as well as from their petition. Do you think that there is any foundation for such a feeling ; do ](on think in point of fiict that t'e inhabitants of Lower Canada of Prench extraction do wish to diHcourage tU settlement of persons of English origin in the Lower Province, and the growth of Engluli institutions? — I cannot sa> wi-at is the feelingof people in general ; Ihave heard someFrenrk Canadians express themselves in a way that induced me to think that they looked upon emigrants rather as foreigners and intruders, but I cannot say that that is the general reel« ing. ' Do > ou see any tiling in the conduct of the Assembly, or of persons in authority there, that leads you to think that they are desirous of removing the obstructions which atpreMst have a tendency to prevent tlie settlement of English in the Lower Province ? — I confew that I have not attended to public matters, nor watched the proceedings in the Legislature; pcraons who are not in the Legislature have little opportunity of ju^ng of tl:e motira which actuate members ofthe Legislature. The debates are nerer published. Do not the wishes of the English part ofthe population of Lower Canada form suhjecti I of general public attention in I^wer Canada ? — Tne Englisli part ofthe population in p- neral conceive, and very justlv, that t'ey are not representea in t!.e Legislature ; I meail t' at the eastern townships are not represented. The British part ofthe population in tbe seigneuries are so scattered and dispersed that they have it not in their power to returo a single member, inasmucli as they do not constitute the majority of the people in any one county, unless it be Gaspe. Are you aware ofthe attempts that have been pade in the Honse of Assembly to alter if c state of the representation, so as to admit lepresentatives from the townships?— I am aware that a bill was introduced for that purpose, but I am ignorant of its proTiMOOi. Are you aware that it passed the House of Assembly, and that it was r^ected by tbe L^ gislative Council'? — I have understood so, but I do not know upon what principle it wa intended to increase the representation. Are A 6u aware tliat complaints have been made of the constitution of the Legishtti» Council ? — Yes, I am aware that such complaints have been made. I What have you understood to be the nature of those complaints ?^— I have understood I that the complainants have stated, that the judges ought to be ekduded, as being tottUjI dependent upon the Crown ; but I am aware uso that a message, was sent down to tbtl Honse of Assembly, by which the CK>vemment offered to render the judges independent of I ihe Crown, if the Assembly would make a permanent provision for their i^upport. I Are you aware that the House of Assembly offered to provide pennaneutly fertliAl if f^ey were made independent ofthe Crown? — In consequence or the message I bin I mentioned a bill was introduced for the purpose of making permanent provision for tbta)! but I understood that clauses were introauced in the bill Uiat were thought objectioniUe,! as tending to lower the judges in the public estimation. " HiTI M::^■ % ON THB CIVIL OOVERNMBNT^OF CANADA. 80» .Mr. C. Grant, Have vou heard aliio m a matter of complaint againat the conititution of the Lcffiilatire CouBcil, that beitidee the jiidflfet there are too maay persona in tlwt council depeuiMnt up> j M the Crown, and in the employment of Government ? — I liave heard inch complaints. ' What proportion doe* the Canadian part of the population bear to t'le whole population 19 junt, iMt. of Lower Canada? — I suppose about nve^ixtlis. Then on the part of five^ixths of t e popuUtion t'-oee complaints exist ?— I do not know whether that is exactly the case ; there is but little public opiuiou in Lower Canada, the majority of t e population pa> little attention to public matters. 1 Should you t ink it desirable that such a change should be made in the constitution of th< LeirislatiTe Council, as should limit tlie number of persons who should sit in tho Coaacii in pay and employment of Government ? — T.iat is a question I am not prepared to iniwer; there not materials in that country for forming an aristooratio bod}', wit .out iu- trodocing some persons holding official situations. Are not there persons living upon their own resources, and possessinc independent iu- eomes? — There are, and some or those are members of the Council alreaav. Ars t!ie members of the House of Aasembly in Lower Canada paid for their attendance t -No. Are not they persons living upon their own means ? — Yes ; but the law has required no aaaUficatiou of fortune for members of the Assembl v, which is considered to be a great de IfCla If there are materials for forming a body of 50 persons in the House of Assembly of per> tomUving independently upon their own maans ; from what do you infer that there would be aa impossibility in appointing a Legislative Council, composed of the same description ofperaons ?— There would be no difficulty if the Council were to be composed of the same deiaiption of persons, but many of the members of the Assembly are not possessed of any filed revenue ; t' ey are persons engaged in different occupations of life. Supposing tliat the majority of the Legislative Council consisted of persons entirely in- depenoent of the OoTernmeut, having an independent property in the country, and who ■igfat be disposed therefore to svmpathiie in a great measure with the representatives of tiie people in the Assembly ; wnat would be the effect of such a change ? — -The fact is, that t'le Government in that country have little or no influence ; as it is they cannot return a member in the Assembly ; and if all public officers were to be excluded from the Council, I cooceive that it would lie, in fact, establishing aspecies of republic. At the same time, it WM a matter of surprize and regret, with all those who were competent to judge upon the rabject, that the House of Assembly did not avail themselves of the opportunity of render- ior the judges independent of the Crown upon any terms. Have you anv doubt, that if there was a Legislative Council appointed of independent hadholders resident in Canada, that t' at Legislative Council would generally conci>/ with their brethren of the Representative Assembly ? — It is verv difficult to answer that ques- tion ; but I amiacUned to think that they would be more likely to concur with them than etberwise. Constituted as they are at present, do they not differ with the House of Assembly in ge- neral? — Thev do differ as they are now constituted. Do- you thmk it desirable that t«o such Assemblies should necessarily, by their aonsti- tntion, be brought into a state of perpetual collision ?— I do not think it is desirable that thatihould be the case ; but I do not know whether any improvement to be introduced •Iwdd consist in altering the Legislative Council alone. . What remedies would you propose ? — I would suggest, as one, the increasing the repre- Mitation of Uie country. Do you consider that the House of Assembly has, whether right or wrong, uniformly re- ■mented the opinions and feelings of the great mass of the population in Lower Canada V i cannot say whether they have represented the feelings of^the population in general dr sot, tb^y are elected by the greater proportion of the inhabitants ; but the masa of this popu- li^on are uneducated, and take but litUe interest in public matters ; they are n6t compe- tent to judge, or to know what takes place in the Legislator^ till they are informed by the ■embers themseltes, or by their friends in the country. ' Ifthe inhabitants in general take little interest in public matters, how do you explain tUftct that npon each successive dissolution the Government has been gradually losing a ..-f jportion of its ufluenoe in the Hous« of Assembly ?---The country peopM in general are uneducated. I 111 iii > MINUTES OF EVIDENCB BEFORE SELECT CO.>rMlTTEE Mr. tmediicatrd, and ^wily l«d by person* in whom the> hhrn confid<>ncf>, and npon ne\ mr. J. C. Grmnk. mHi'vp diasolution tiic^ may have l>«<*n «xHt«d b^ repriHwntations to take ttopii to RMurt /— ~"*— — %th«'ir reliprion.and preserve (bemiirlvpt from taxation and other e\\U \ and to my im^tiiamI 10 iuR« itfts. knowled}fe thone mean* hav4> fn>«mently been reiiorted to, for the pnrpOM of acrurinir th« election of certain ciiudi(Utes, and the rrjei'tiun of otl>erH. Doen not that show that they really do take avery lively intereit in pnblio matt(n^?-|t ahowN that they take an interest when any alarm is excited among t lera respectinir tkrir U«VN, inHtitutionHorr«li(pon. Do juu menu that the popnlation confide t'le whole of their intereats to the Le^ilitiri Aaaerobly, and take very little concern about them afterwiirds ? — They do. Mow wonid, that inconvenience be remedied by extendinff the repreHentative bodv r~.( ^tnean that if any chan|;e ia effected in the constitution, it w onid be tair and ri^ht to give i renrcHnntation to t! at part of the citmmiinity that are not represented at all. Do you mean the En<;lish part of t^e popnlation ? — Thoae within the townshlpH, fortlit other part of the Edj^Un * population are nominally r.^preaented, although they are ootnw presented by merobers of tiieir choice, because they are alwava oiit-votM. IIuH there been auy coropbunt made respecting the administration of justice, in cAnof. .'^udnce of the judges being part of the LegiHlativc in the administration of justice is not secured which ought to exist. Vou say that the Canadians are uneducated ; are there liny compkiints of want of edaoh Uon ?— Tliere are. What U the nature of the complaints ? -I liaro heard complaints made that the huk which «ere appropriated for the purpose of education have not beenapplied for that pur fiose ; that is, the revenues arisingft-om the Jesuits estates ; and that tiie public schooii in he country have been placed nnder the anperintendenee of a corporation for Uie advanci^ meut of learning, vihich is composed of the Protestant biahop and theBi^liah clergy, asj members of the Episcopalian Church prlnoipally ; however in the ^ ear 1M7 there -nn a project in contemplation u > the Government, wit'i the co-operation of the Roman Oatliolic bishop, to constitute a Separate contmittee for the support or schools for the education of the Hoom Cat olic partofthe commnnity. If you were asked what class ofpdnons you would exclude from the Legislative Gonad] in order to render it more ind^nendcnt, what class of persons would you fix upon ?-~I do not think the same cause would exist for excluding the Judges if they were rendered ia^i- pendant of the Crown that exists at present, Is there any particular class of officers that are dependent upon the Crown that yon would exclude in preference to Others ?-«l see none out the Judges partienlaiiv, sbooM they continue to bold their office onlv by t!.e sattie tenure that they do at present. Would you think it desirable that a largo majority of the Legislative Council should Im persons absolutely dependent for their pay and employment upon the Oovcrnmeat ?~ Cei^nly not. Are you not aw-are that that is the case *t present ?-^Thwo are some who are dependtat on th^ Crown, there are others who receive small salaries, «hom I do not conceive to be tot^ly dependent upon the Government ; and sotneofthe independent landholders, «b« arc members ofttie Council, seldom dr never attend to perfrtrm their l^siaftive duties- Supposing it were referred to yon to decide w!iatLegis!ativeCoumal should be eitebbk ed in Canada for the purpose of being a check both upon the Ootemor on the one !■< and the Representative Assembly on the other ; have yuu ever considered what kind of a I* ^alative Coitncil you would think best ? — I have not considered th« subject, but I tbiiklt would be fmx iHtA Rdme of the principal landhdM^n of the oonntr^ should be '—"—^ — ' into t at body^atihe sametinie rdoMt thtjnkit would be proper that itsheold dusively ofmem. introdiMM eoaaistsz; V : The Rev, JgJaiLee, t), D. called in ; knd fixaUdded. The Her. . . ^ '»'m/.«. D. B. VoU«N»«neoftheMiaieter8ofRdinbu|gh?-^lam. « H&veaDT oommnnicationa taken place between yourself and the Gror^rniA^t Tt^)^e^ the'atiitl of the PrcsbyteHan cleiigy in the t^o Provinces of Caivada ?--^A« >tfi#eUer 6f i ■■-?.-»,-, fommitttf I 4 ON TUB CIVIL UOVCRNMENT OF CANADA. 107 «Biutt4M of the Ocueml AMembly, I uriw inntniotcd to applv to Oovernmeat in tb« form ,|- _^ of • aanoruJ, ■oltcitioff aid towurdii the M|»ort of the IVu«b>teriiin mluUttfn iuu6inmu- johnLetl! o uMa with the Church of Scothuid rMidotit in Upper and Lower Canada. - 2 * Wheu wa* that applimtion made ?-<*Ta« applicatiou woa made about 12 month* ag;o, 19 June laca. ibottt the btgiaaiug of June Ust year. Have tiie tfoodaeaa to dt>HcriUe thuuaturo of the anpliciitiou ?— I ivill delirer in a copy of (ktmtvor'ai which wan preteated to tite ('olouial OiUve. [The witiUM delivered in the tame, which was read at JiMows.] » To tli« Rijfbt HouourobUi Ilia Migeaty** Principal Secretary of State for Colonial Affain. " The Memorial of a Committee of the General Aaaembly of the Church of iiJoothuid, " Humbly ahowetb, " That your Mpmorialiita have been appointed by the last General AflNembly to innuire iil» the condition of tl^e Preabyteriaii cler^fy and people in the Britiuh provincei in North Aaariea, aud have been inntruoted to itupport, by all proper meann. the applications made ta Oorornment for theirrelief, and particularly to embmue every favourable opportunitr iirpnMnotiii( • u ) object of the overtures tmiumitted from various Synods of this National Ckaroh, re^-O' naendiiijf tothe General A^Menibly to u«e their best endeavours for obtaining milsbie mainteo^nce for reguUrly ordained I'resbytcriun miuisten in rhe British Amerf- MsColoMies, and assistance towards the creation aud endowment of places of worship for Ik asMmmodation of the numerous settlers in those colonies profcssingto be in commn- I aoo with the Church of Scothuid. ' Ttie attentiott of the Memorialijita has of late been specially called to the condition of I IhiaiMiiVBta of the Ciiurch of Scotland resident in Upper Canada, on whose behalf claims kivtieenputfortUlor ft share in the proccedn of the lauds rcsen'ed bytheSlst of his lato i^jas^ e. 31, for the support of tlie Protestant cler^^v. The General Assembly, in 1623, ^inoted this Committee to support the application by all means in their power ; and it is is obediestce to the command 01 the last General Assembly that this Memorial is presented. "Your Memorialists cannot conceive it to admit of a question that, under the designa- tisisf a Protestant clei^, it must have been the intention of the Legislature to include, lotaoly the clergy deriving tiieir orders from bishops of the Cburcli of England, but all nadiasnughtat an r time b<>reg^ularly ordained by Presbyteries of this National Church. The law of the land luis ii^plied the same general designation of ProtCHtant indisciimioately Itotiiemembersof citiier oitiie two eatabUiihed c!)urc!ie8 witStinthe United Kingrdoro. la Itteatification of 4he Treaty of Union, aud in the Act of the Parliamontof England, intitu- |H ' Au Act for securing the Church of Euglaudas by law established,' the expression, \fnlutant Heligion/m used at least m frcqueutly in combination with Presbyterian cliuroh Ifnemmeut as with the govemmeut of the Church of England. And your Mombrialists Im BOtaware of any law w.iicti can exclude t'le members oftbe Established Church of Scot- Ihadfroia the aame privileges which are claimed and cnjo ve^ by th9 members of the Church lif fisriand, .resident in a colony which is coqfessedly British, I * f Qfl Memorialists tri^t that it is unnecessary Tor them to advert to the great propor- |iinof;(he «f tilers in Canada .who are attacked tothe doctrine, government and worship f ihetfllwr(4i of ibotUnd. In the extensive range of country known by the name^ ^ ', inhabited c-ieflj by a race of Highlanders, there are three Presbyterian each of whom preaches bot!i in Gaelic and English, and one of whom has about I communicants in his congregation. Since the termination of the war many thooaandt f persons have emigrated from the west of Scotland, and have formed conih'egationaL uticularly in t'le coi\nty q! Carleton, including the settlements of Lanark, Perth and - Kichmond. Tliree years a^o this county (the population of which was about 6,000,) waa uppiisdrwith religions inatruotion by four Presbyterian ministers, two Roman Catholic metts, one episcopal minister, and one Methodist preacher, from the United States. "Ve people of that district, and of several others, have manifested a decided prefenence rne forms of worship practised in the Church of ScotUnd. ** Your ■..- 1 i ■U I i ,U 5 •I ifl r^-. TlKRev. Jff/in Lett D. ,' ^ 19 Junt 18Cf. • ( MTNUTES OF EVmENCB BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE " Your memoriatists have reason to believe that the congregatious in Upper Canada ** in comniitnion with the church of Scotland have been represented to Government as be- "^ \n'r few in number, when compared with the congregations which avail themselves of the nuuiHtrationsof clei^fyroen of tne churc'i of England. It cannot, however, be denied that there are in Upper Canada at least 30 J'resbyterian congregations professing to adhere to tl*e doctrine ana v^orsliip of the churcli\>f Scotland, and that the existing pliu;es of Monhip frequented by Presbyterians are numerously and respectably attended. Though the Pre*, byterian ministers in the province do not exceed 20 in number, and though only five of thii number have been ordained by Presbyterians of t te established Church of Scotland, it is as. certained that a great majority of the people are lealously attached by principle and educa. tion to this established church. But the settlers being in general poor, do not possess the means of affording an adequate provision to ministers, and as the Presbyteries of tlie c^^urch of Scotland are not entitled to confer ordination on any to whom satis&cton security for a connpetent living has not been given, many of the settlers, who before thetr departure from Scotland were in communion with t!'.e' church, are compelled to cooned themselves with some of the sectaries whose forms resemble those of the church of Soot* land, although I their religious principles may not be strictly conformable to our standardi TheChurc'i ofEnglandn^s not laboured under the same disadvantage; funds have been granted by Government for the erection of churches, which are in many instances, if not lu all, supplied by the missionaries from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign parts. Within the last six vears (aa appears from the Report of the Sodetf for the year I821)the number of communicants at 17 stations in Upper Canada, aetrti by 17 missionaries, whose salaries amounted te 3,3451. did not exceed 118. As aeon* trastwith this admitted fact, it maybe stated that in the year 1823 the Presbyterian con* petitions which the General Assembly has received from several ministers and elders in Canada, it is expressly stated that there are nmny extensive and flourishing settlements, especidly in Upper Canada, the inhabitants of which are desirous to obtain clergrmn of our national church, and that their exertions in building churches and raising funds for th« support of clergymen, would be greatly animated if tney could bo assuren of beiat placed under t)>e jurisdiction and protection of the mother church. These petitions re- present a great majority^ of the Protestant population as being of TVesbyterian principln, and as having no disposition to conform to the established Church of England; so tint I wherever they have no access to the instructions of ministers ordained in the churdiofi Scotland, they are in danger of imlnbing political disaffection, as well as extravagant anil irrational views of religion from some of the unauthorized teachers who are said to intrude I in considerable numbers from various parte of the United States. I ** Your memorialists have only further to state, f^at as the want of a fixed and permi-l nent provision for clergymen ordained to such stations has hitherto restrained the Pranolvo to t' at iSIomorial ? — The onl) answer I roiteivcd ffoiii tli« -j-ij^ ^^^ Government « lis this letter, wliich I will deliver in. John Lee, n. n- [The Witness delivered in the same, which was read ns follows :] " Dovnino: Street, 4th July 1827. "Sir, " I am directed by discount Godoricli to acl{nonlinlj>-(> tho receipt of your lottor of the 8t'i ultimo, nrcfinsT th<» claims of the Presbyterian ministers to participato in tlie lands reserved tor the suj.port of a Protrstant cleriyy in Canada, and I am to request that you will communicate to the Committee of the (General Assembly of the C iircli of Scotland, that instructions were convened by Lord Bathurst to the Lieutenant (governor of lljiper Canada in October last, authorizing the appropriation of 7^01. per annum from the pro- reeds of the sale of Crown lands to the Canada Company, which Lord Goderich tnists will evince the favourable disposition of His Mjyesty's Govemraent towards the clergy of the Presb'terian Church, and whenever an available fund shall be established froni the proceeds of the clerjry reserves, tiie claims of the members of the Church of Scotland will be taken into consideration. " I have t^e honor to be. Sir, your most obedient humble servant, " R. W. IIORTON." What information have you of t'-e number and condition of the Presbyterian popula* tion in the Canadas, which are in connection with the Church of Scotland ?— I have bad a great number of letters from ministei-s and others who are resident there, as the Com- mittee of the General Assembly was instructed to correspond with those persons for the «ke of obtaining'prccise information ; but tlie information which was expected by the Church of Scotland is not yet nearly completed, returns not having been sent by the whole of th? districts to which the queries were transmitted. Is it not a rule with the General Assembly of Scotland tl at no minister should be sent to any conffreration of Presbyterians without there is a certainty of his bein^ properly mpported ? — That has been the nilc and the practice of the Ciiurc'i of Scotland. Under that rule, how many ministers have been sent to the Canadas? — So fav as I know, the number in Upper Canada who have been sent under that rule is not more than six. Have any gone t^'ere of their own accord, without authority for whom no certain stipend has been provided ? — We have access to know that a considerable number have gone out otherwise, some having been sent by particular societies, private associations, rorroedfor the pun pjie of sending ministers and miss'onaries for the instruction of the settlers tiiere ; and there are a good number who call themselves Presbyterian ministers, in Upper Cana(?:i in particular, wt o profess to be in communion «ith the ('hurch of Scotland, but w ith regard to the form of whose appointment t'^.e Assembly is not in- formed. Of all those descriptions, w'at proportion of Presbyterian ministers connected with the Scotch Church do you believe to exist in the Canadas ? — The precise number I cannot state without referring to documents v,hich I have not sufficiently arranged, not having expected to be examined by this Committee ; but in Uppi>r Canada, as I lave already stated. I personal!) know of bix ; in Lo er Canada, I think the number is nearly the - same. • Have yon any information which has led you to form any opinion as to the probable nnmber of Presbyterians connected with the Scotch Church in the two provinces of Canada ? — I could not condescend, on any thing like an exact statement of the numbers. Tlie returns from the different districts and townships all state that the numbers are very gi"*«t, and that the proportion of persons attached to the doctrine and worship of the Chitfch of Scotland is raucii greater than of those who are of any other communion. Do vou speak of Upper or Lower Canada ?- -I am speaking of Upper Canada at present. D ? . What m V Mia 19 June 1828. , \:\ ;i 1' i ■ ■ .1 ii m t\ -Ih r r> -i SIO mNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOUE SELECT COMMITTEE Th* Re». Jkan Lee, ru f— -^ . What stipends have been awarded to the ministers whom ron describe as havinflr ^one j.oiitto Canada '' — I have no direct method of knoM'injr exactlv «hat is the salary of any ^one of them ; none of them liave been sent from the General Assembly itself ; but thcj 10 June iSKS.bave been ordained by Presbyterians throughout S<;otland, with the exception of one. Do you know what stipend would, under the circumstances of Canada, be tlioufht sufficient for a Presbyterian minister of a conjyrejration of a moderate size ? — I undei-staud about 2001. a year to be what is thought an adequate maintenance tliere, and that I kuow is possessed by one or t- o. Do any of them derive a portion of their emoluments from subscriptions or other funds provided in Great Britain ? — I am not aware of ainy who do so, with the exception ofsucnasare sent out by a society in Glasgow for promoting^ the religious interests of «ettlers in British North America. If an}' Presbyterian ministers from the north of Ireland have established themselres in Canada, would that fact bo known to your body ? — It could not be known otherwise thaa through the commnnirations t' at the comniiitoe of the Assembly have received ;«e know that there have been instances of such persons going there, but they are not at all recognized by the Church of Scotland. Has any portion of the money referred to in the answer to your memorial been receir. ed ? — I do not know ; I have understood that it is only a limited period. Have any communications taken place between your body and the corporation for the management of the ch'rgy reserves in Canada? — No, I have not been the medium of any communication, and I do not kuo^v that any has taken place. -. Have the body to which you l)eIoiig taken any pains to ascertain what is held to be the interpretation of tile statute of 179 i, as affecting the Scotch IVesbyterian Church in Ca- nada; whether iti point of la «v you have any claim ujion the property reserved for the maintenance of a Protestant Church ? — Certainly, we have an understanding on that subject ; and I was instructed to press that matter in t ^e memorial to tl.e Secretary of State for Colonial Affairs. What opinion does the body to which yon belong entertain on that subject ? — I con- ceive that the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, in so far as any opinion has ever been expressed there, conceive that the Church of Scotla.id is as well entitled aa the Church of England to a share of that property. - Do ycu hold that the words, "Protestant Clergy" exclude othw denominations besides the Church of England and the Church of Scotland ?■ — 1 believe ti at the Church of Scotland has been disposed to consider it as applicable to the members of established . - churches. And of established c' urches only ? — If I state my own opinion I would say so; but I cannot take upon me to say that that is the universal understanding of the church, but I thing it is. When did the Assembly first take into consideration this claim ? — I think about six years ago ; I h^ » been only for three years connected with the committee. Does the separation »h;o'i !;«» taken place between the two bodies of the Scotch Chmch ., exist in Canada, or would the two bodies unite there in one congregation ? — We do not think that the grounds of the separation exist, at least to thp same extent there that they do in Scotland; but still, so far as we know, the members of that bod\, called tt;e Seces. sion, havenot bound themselves to adhere to the same standards which we acknowledge. We understand that they generally recognize the confession of faith as being consistent witiv Scripture ; but that tt'ey do not bind themselves so strongly to the support of it as the members oT the Established Church are bound. Do not all the ministers of the Secession sign the Westminster Confession of Faith ?— I do not know that they do now, but I understand that if they do th?y do it with some qualitiuHtlon. As tho question ii is been put to me it is my duty to state, that many of the ministers connected with the Secession, both in Upper and Lower Canada, have signified their willingness to profess strict adharence to th? doctrine, and discipline, and worship of the? Church of Scotland. Have you any means of know ing whether the Presbyterians of American origin in Canada would also join in the same congregations with the Scottb Presbyterians? — I have no means isf kuqwin^ that. I been recoir- nk about six . ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. til Was that declaratiou of thoir williugriesN to adopt your conrcssion of faith made by tlie I'h* R*** clerj^yinen in Canada, made since the diaciistsion has sirison with respect to this claim ?— ''""'* ^'* ° ^' Sotarait I know, it is only since this claim has been a^^itated. ' , lo^' Is it your opinion that nil jn'otest.iut dissenters of every description, whether Pros- "" bvterianS or not, have a rifrht to Khare iu t!>at fund V-^I hope I .sliall be for)jfiven for stating that we do not consider oiusclves as Protestant dissenters ; the Church oi Scotland is an established church. Do >ou conceive thi^ Protestant dissenters will be entitled to a share of that fund ? — , I am not capable of Npeakiii sequence of the dissensions prevailing in the Lower Province, and also as a merchant not having that security iu the country wl.ich I think would be very desirable for the ' prosperity of it. . ,. Iu what way do the dissensions w! ich prevail in the LoM'er Province obstruct tbe operations of commerce, and the improvement of the Canadas ? — By preventing the eu- < actment of laws necessary for the security of trade. There is no such thing as knowing, at present, wlien real property is mortgaged or not, and we are in the general course of our trade in tlic hnbit of advancing to different people merchandize, taking security on ' their property, and frequently findmg in t! 3 end that this securitv is good for nothing, in- asraucn as it has been mortgaged before to its full value, and we lose the whole advftnce ; , this I know from experience as a merchant. In what way have you exptirienced the inconvenience you mention ? — In consequence of taking security for goods advanced to people who M'ero ready to offer their property as security, but when we came to discuss the property, we fopnd that others had previous ' mortgages on it. . ^ Have you any reason to think that this has frequently happened ? — In our general trade it has frequently occurred to us. Is t'e lending of money upon mortgage materially discouraged by this difficulty ? — No doubt it is. In what way did you discover that the property had been previously'mortgaged ?— When ve sued the individual in court, others came forward with prior claims. What remedy do you think could be provided for this evil ? — I think if the House of Assembly in Lower Canada were to pass an Act for the establishment of register o^ fices in Lower Canada, nhere all mortgages and incumbrances should be registered, we ibould then know under wliat terms we either advanced goods on such property, or mad* purchases of landed estates. i '.t' I *^:. #d 21$ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOIIE SELECT COMMITTEE f J,. Is the difference of opinion which nriHes as to the expediency of this register one of the Hohert GUleivie dissensions which you describe ?— A bill hail been two or three times introduced into the , ^. -' House of Assembly for the establishment of registry ofliccs, but the House qf Assembly 10 Juna 18?8. always have rejected it. Has no register bill ever passed the House of Assembly ? — Not to my knowledge. Is there any thiiijlf else \*liicli prevents merchants from pursuing their business in Ca. nada, or from, investing their property in it '( — 1 tliink those are the principal points on which thne of tlifi d into the Assembly ledge. !ss in €&• points ou purchases !!anada ?— . much at- thing of it. i ; I o^^'ued ut of land? tlie Lower \ whether it urc'ase has \, and mai'e ged, and he he improve- , would ena- that there is e in Lower it does, lever was in tied there as remit them in Canada |n what they offices exist lould invest Ida itself?— Itheir monies not with a lot?— It is a IberiflTs sale, the expense, 's fees ?— It ces place, tteuded witb [ersonal pro- i that coun- What ON Tim CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA fit What dcgjcc of c^an^c in that respect would, in your opinion, diminish lliat disposi- tioa to invest their capitalhere, as compared with investing it in Canada? — If the lands were lu'ld in free and common soccagc, I think it would be a favouraMo c'aiige. Are there not many lands lield in free and common soccage ? — Not in the seigncuries,*^ "* all ti;e townships are held so. Do you find any di8|>osition on the part of merchants to invest their money in lands ia the townsliips ? — No ; they have a fear of their title not being good, and a great portion of t' ose lands are of very littlo value, not being settled. In poiut of fact, do you appreliend that under any cliange of la^ s, it would ever be desi- rable for a capitalist to invest large sums of monev in tlie purchase of land ia tlio Cana* das?— If waste lands in Canada remain witliout payin"' any tax, I should thiuU t' at a pur- cliase of land in the townsliips of Lower Canada at a low price would ultimately be a very advantageous thing. - Do you contemplate that advantage to arise from leaving the land waste for a consi- derable time id then from t!;e improvement of the land in tlie neighbourhood selling at a very b.\. iced price ? — I think that in time a great part of the waste lauds in Lower Canada may get settled, and those remaining unsettled will then become valuable. Then you would contemplate the purcliase of land as leading necessarily to a considera- ble portion of it remaining waste ? — Yes. Do you consider that desirable for the province ? — Certainly not. Would you be disposed, if you had the opportunty of settling that land at an early pe- riod, of doing so, or would you wait? — I would rather wait, it is a very expensive opera» tion, settling lands. lu general is not the purchase of land made there wifi a view of retailing it ? — It is generally in this way : a person buys a large tract of land under the idea that I.e will re- tail part of it and retain the other part, so that it may become more valuable in conse* quence of the other part being settled. Is it for the benefit of the province that that land should be held as a permanent invest- ment ? — No, I do not think it is, unless the proprietor settles it. lu point of fact can land in Canada bo very profitable, except to the immediate culti- Tator? — Not immediately profitable. Do you conceive tlmt a purchaser is more safe in Canada, in purchasing lands that are held in free and common soocage, than in purchasing land under the title of seigneiu-ie ? -Yes. Would not a purchaser of land under free and common soccage be liable to the same ftaud, from there being a prior incumbrancer whose title was concealed from him V — The laods held under free and common soccage being granted at a later period are unlikely to have the same incumbrances upon them. Supposing you were about to purchase land held in free and common soccage, and that you wanted to ascertain whether there was a prior existingptitle against it, what step would pu take ? — I could take no step if there vas no register ofifice established, unless I re- I sorted to a sherifTs sale. Tlien you are liable to be defrauded in the purchase of lands held in fVee and common I socage, notwithstanding the novelty of the tenure ?t— Yes ; but aa stated before, the laud is not so likely to be burdened. In point of fact, is land in Canada very often mortgaged ? — Very frequently. You are aware that the French law of descent divides the property equally among the I children; do you consider that the English population of Lower Canada would prefej? ^ tiiat to the English law of primogeniture ? — No, I do not. Supposing two offers were made to you of a quantity of land equally good in point of ' irgain, the one within the seigneuriea, the other within ^he townships ; which olf'er would Irou consider to be tlie best for the investment of your capital? — That in the townships^ because I think they will be sooner settled. Why do you think it would be sooner settled ? — Emigrants would sooner go there than irenuua in the seigneuries, because they would then associate with people of th^ earae llai^uage, feelings and customs, and expect a participation of the same laws to which they ad been accustomed. There is then something in the law which wpuld produce that effect ?— In the townships hbe English law was promised, I believe, by the treaty of 1791, ^ Mr. liobert Cillespii; 1828, it i; r i l^p'lf f fU MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 'Hi riUm '1 1;. J; 1 i Hb- ' ' ^t'. ■ Aa ia gniences in Lower Canada are such, that the mercantile interests in the House of Assembly are un- represented. By a union of the provinces a great number of English representatives would be obtained, and man} Acts h}j which the country would be improved, would, I tliiiik be passed. ^ _ ^ Do you think that the English mercantile interest is in any way discouraged in Lower Canada at present? — I think it is; the Lower Province at present raises comparatively little for tlie exports of the country. The merchant of Lo*er Canada has to look to Up- per Canada, and to the townships for articles of export, as tlie Lower Province produce* few or none. Do not they export timber, ashes, and com from the seigneurios ? — With respect to com, the last year they did not raise more than would be uecessaiy for the consumptioD of the Lower Province, Is there a surplus in t'se townships ? — Not in the townships of Lower Canada ; in Up- per Canada there will be a surplus. To what do you attribute the circumstance of there being no surplus of grain raised by the inhabitants of the seigneuries ? — I think the Canadians are ba 1 agriculturists. Are they rendered so by the tenure of their land and their system, or is it any thing . in their individual qiwlities ? — I think their system of agriculture is bad. To what do you attribute the badness of their 8\9tem, and the superiority of the prac- tice in Upper Canada ? — In Upper Canada they follow the English, or more properly the Eoijlish-Aracrican, system of farming; in Lower Canada they retain the old French cus- tom of grazing the land one year and ploug ling it the second, without t!ie rotation of ti.e Enwlis I system. Are not t'le soil and climate much more favourable in Upper Canada than in Lower Canada ? — The climate is somewhat more favourable, and the new soil i$ better than the old ia cultivation in Lower Canada. > Does the timber all come from Upper Canada? — Principally. What are the principal articles of produce in Lower Canada which are exported fron^ ', I thence? — Grain and ashes. ' "'- l8 the quantity pf ashes from Lower Canada greater than tliat from Upper Canada ? — [ 1 think not, ' ' From what parts of the Lower Province are the grain and ashes exported ? — The grain I exported from Lower Canada, and raised there, is principally grown in the district of Mon- treal, and the greater proportion of ashes arc made in the townships. Do the descendants ot Frepch Canadians consume English goods to a considerable ' amount ?— They do. » LsthereanyditFerencebetweenthehabitsof the seigneuries and the habits of the township* nd of Upper Canada in that respect ? — In Lower Canada they dress somewhat differently ; they use an inferior article of woollen cloth, for instance, tq what they use io Upper Ca-r v - JDada or in the townships. i Is there any trade direct between France and Canada ? — Very trifling, • -. I« there much connection maintained between the descendantsof the French settlers and ^ I France ? — There are occasionally Canadian gentlemen who visit France and return. I Is there much emigration from France into the Lower Province ?-r Very little. I believe ■that the priests in the seminary at Montreal are generally Frenc'imen. I What branches of trade are you most acquainted with ?— With the trade of Canada ge» I penally. Do you know whether the imports fiom the United States into Canada are increasing ? I-Thcre is a d&ty on American goods coming into Canada which checks them, b ■'».)■ J. ^t ;. i -> s ■ ■ 'i'l' 216 MINT^TES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Is Canada, hii'act, Mtin])licd with many articlos of the manufactures of the United States ATV. soms coming in under duty, and others comin'^' in by moans of smuggfling ? — A great Jtnhfri (////«/"' cretary and chairman of the committee to authorize me to attend to the interests of that petition. This paper refers to an ecclesiastical chart of the different denominations of Christians in Upper Canada, derived from different clergymen and persons mucli interested in the result of tiiQse petitions as to ti;e numerical str«ngtli and number of the different denomi- nations of Chndtians in that province ; have you any sucli chart with you ? — Tint chart it attached to tlie petition that was laid befoire the House of Commons. Can you describe the manner in which that chart was formed, and what means were tiiten to insure its correctness ?— The secretary of the committee nrote to ministers of the different denominations of Christians, and to other intelligent individuals, requesting a correct return of tlie number of t^ieir churches and members, and ministers, and of tho8« who statedly attended their religious instruction, &c. ; much pains were taken to ascer- tain the correctness of the returns. The chart was published in Canada, where any errors would be discovered and exposed bv those interested in the subject. Can you certify the accuracy of that document ?— Iknow the most material part of it to be correct, and I believe tl^at the whole of it is so. Can yoiu state to the committee the substance of it ? — I cannot at thial moment. Tha chart does not profess to give a perfect view of the numerical strength of the English Church, the Presbyterians, Quakers, and Menonists, though it does in general of their ministers and places of wbrship. The account of the Methodists and Baptists is more de- tailed and complete ; it gives the names of the ministers, the place of their birth and edu- cation, thenumber of chapels, regular and occasional religious services, members of their church and regulars hearers. The Methodists are the most numerous denomination. Wbatdenomination.of Methodists, are they Wesle^an Methodists? — They are essen- tiaily Wesleyan in doctrine and discipline, but form a distinct body, denominated the Cawkda Conference ; their ministers meet annually in a conference in Upper Canada. What denomination is next to them in number? — I think the different classes of Pres- ^ byterians are the next, but they are not iu organized societies, they have but few minis- ten. What denomination do you conceive to be next to them in number ?— I think that the Church Qf England and the Baptists ar6 about equal in number, and next to the Presby- terians. Does the chart ^ou have referred to give a tolerably correct statement of tlie prpporti- I ens of all those denominations ? — It does, I believe, give a correct return of the churches, tbe ministers, and the religioiis services of the different denominations, but not a full ac- count of the number belonging to each, except the Methodists and Baptists. Thc^ keep- in; an accurate account of all their societies, were able to furnish specilic informatiou. It ii scarcely possible to give a return of the Church of England, because tiiere are but few communicants. In the other societies none are returned as belonging to them but those I who are adult communicants. It is stated in Mr. Morrison's letter that the Presbyterians refused to join the petitioners jtmerall;^? — By that part of the Presbyterians who are members of the Church of Scotland Itiiepetition was not, 1 believe, generally sigiied. I What do you attribute that to ? — They wish to get half of the reserves themselves : but I fte largest proportion of the Presbyterians of Upper Canada, I believe, joined iu the gene- |nl petition. Itappears also that the Roman Catholics did not join ; do you conceive them to b« Itttj aumeroiu in Upper Canada ? — In the upper part there are a few township* of French £ e OanadiaafS, M| 'f f'l '' « ' 11 ' !'» 1 M ■i ^ 1 f i 1 * 1. 1 tu MINUTfiS OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. CanMianit, and a townBhip of Hif^hland Scotch in the lower part wbo are Ronmn Catho> George %er«on. lies ; in other parts uf tho province thoy are not nnmeroiw). f— * > Are there many Irish Catholics ? — Tliero are in »onio few of the new townships recent) • 19Jun«, 1828. inl.abitcd. ' In this letter there are many complaints of the manner in nhichtlie stateraent of tliu nnmbcr of commnnicants of thoC'ourcli of England v^is drawn np ; have yoti any iAmr- • .' vations to make upon that subject ? — No, I am not acquainted with tliat ; I know the num. )l»er to be very small. You have stated that Dr, Strachan has made 80roc miH-stntcments ; what fft^unils hare you upon which to oifer opposite stfltemcnts to those of Dr. Htrauhan ? — Dr. Stnichan says that the majority of people belong to the Church of Eng-land aitd I know that to b* ' incorrect, and tliat thv Cnurch of Enrrland is anionirijt the least numerous of the ditfnrtnt denominations ; the congrejfations are g-eiierally very small, except in the town of York, where there are n number of (4overnmeut otticers. Dr. Strachap in his chart omits se- veral denominations of Christians altogether, as the Baptists, the Quakers, and the Me. < nonists ; and he mentions the Methodist teachers as being disatfected and alienating tli« minds of the people from the Government. I know that to be wholly incorrect ; for a larf^t proportion of tlie ministers are old loyalists, and several of them men that have fought in defence of the country. A very largo proportion of the Methodist societies also are % descendants of old American loyalists. In the late vtarnomen distinguished themMlrei inore in the defence of the country than tlie Methodist societies generally. It has been stated that the tendency of ii large part of the population of Upper Canidi would be towards the established church, if ministers of the establistied church and suitable placesof worship could be provided J do you believe that to be the fact? — No; they have greater means of providing places of v.or«hip and of procuring ministers than any other de. nomination : thoy receive a grant of 100/. towards building a very small church', and their ■' , tninisters are paid by this country, and have several sources of emolument and peculiar . privileges refused to ministers of other denominations ; but they have not increased in the ' eamc proportion as others have done. Do you know any district in wliich, there being an established chiu'ch and a minister provided, the number of other denominations of Christians yet exceed the number of the 1 ' members of the Ciiuroh of England in a large degree? — Yes; in the town of York, where ^ • . there are several Clergymen ofliciating in the Church ; there is no place in Upper Canada where the other denominations are more numerous and increase faster. I was there about a year ago, and I visited several Sunday schools belonging to the Presbyterians, the Methoi dists, and the Baptists, but tliere was more attached to the Church of England ; I believe it to be the case in almost evciy place in Upper Canada where there is a resident minister of \\\e Church of England. J How many congregations of the Church of England are there in York ? — There ii ] "" one. Dr. Strachan^ cWrch. Do -you know the number of which that congregation may consist? — No, I oannot 8tat<| the number exactly ; I tiiink not more numerous than the Methodists alone. ly How many congregations of Methodists are there 'r* — There is only one chapel of each I ' denomination, Cl>urch of England, Roman Cathplics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and | Baptists. , . what schools are there connected with the Church of England establishment ?— The I district school^ of which Dr. Philip is th^ teacher ; and a central school on the national | ^-. system. Are there any district schools for tho other denominations? — There are^ two ^ap\ schools that consist of Methodists, Presbyterians, and otiiers. ■ > " Have the churches for the other denominations of Christians been built entirely by I voluntary subscription ? — They have,and their ministers are raaint^ned iu the same,waj.| Has tlicre been any select committee lately appointed by the House cif Assembly in Up-I ?er Canada, upon subjects connected with the religious state of the province ? — Yes, andj have forwarded a copy of their report to the Colonial Office. I Wliat opinion did that committee express upon the accuracy of Dr. Strachan's state- j ment^^ ? — They expressed m opinion that it is inaccurate in abuost every particular. I ^■•••tiiI ON THB CIVIL OOVBRNMBNT OF CANADA. tI9 ■ork?~Thereii Did the Roratnittee cxpreM any opinion upon the univeraity that htw lately bcon founded j^,^ Id Upper Canada, with rcfVrenoc to its roli^ioiin rhuraottfr i* — Ypb, they disapprove of the Georga tt'ytrnn%. churaotcr of it, and I l>olievt'it is i^cnorully dlMupproved of i)ythe lun^vst propprliun of thy, - -*■' , [Mwnle in I'ppor Canada. 19 Juna, ISUQ. Unou what jjrounds V — On arconnt of itsbeinjj nnd^r tlie oxclnsivo control of one do- nommntion of Christians, and ro(inirinff ivli;fi()ns t«'.sts, and Ww Iur ;' ( ■••■ 'I 1 HO MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ]^,^ vincial Allowance for the support of district and common •chooiR, and the endowment ofa Cfitrge R^erton.V'^V""?^ N<>miniiry for learning, and in aid of erecting places of public worahip for all d^ -A- hominatiouN of Cliriiitians. J9 JiinelSSs. 'c V at thorc were IB members of the House of Assembly professing to b« Church of }£nglAnd ? — J am not certain on tlie subject, but I do not think so, •'Yeas 31. NayyS. Majority 29. " Resolved, That tlie number of the Protestant Episcopal Church in this proviucf ItMn a very small proportion to (he number of other Christians, notwithstanding the peciiuiarr aid long and exclusively rcceii'ed from the benevolent society in England by tlie memb«n of that church, and their pretensions to a monopoly of the clergy reserves. * " YeajiSO. Nays 3. Minority 27." What was the object of those resolutions ? — The object of them wt^s to frame a latv agm ing with them, for the sale of the clergy reserves. Did all parties unite in passing thoi^o strong rcsolutionn iu the House of Assembly?— Yes. It appears that they were moved by Mr. Rolph, is he a member of the Church of Enj. land ? — He is a member of the Church of England, educated at Cambridge, and, I belierp, a member of Linc^oln's Inn. They were seconded by Mr. Morris; is he a member of the Entablished Church of Scot- land ? — I believe he is, and is uuder(;tood to represent that interest in the House of Ai> scmbly. Dr. Strachnn says t'mt the Assembly contains 18 members of the Church of England; th« minority in the division did not exceed three, were those members of the Governpeot?— No. Do you believe members of the Churd Mr. Morrison's letter states that Dr. Stracl'nn has reported in his chart, that manj churches were built, or likely to be built, in places where none had been built, or were likely to be built. Hiivo you any information upon that Nnl>ject?— There is no church in Ancaster.bnt one, called a free cAwrcA, built for the use of ali denominations of Chrintianj, but the minister of t e Church of England does not preach, nor is there any reguliirser- vice by the church in it. T.e township of Woolwich he nuMitions as having a church and occasional service ; that is a new township on the Grand River, and there never nasi clergyman in it when 1 left the country, except a Methodist missionary, he had only visited it then once. There is qo Indian village in tlie district of London, with a cliurch, as stated. Other inacctiracies I have seen mentioned in newspapers from different parts of the pro- vince, but I ani not sutliciently acquainted with all the localities to pomt out the miii> takes. It is stated in the san^e letter that Dr. Strachan has consideral^ly mis-stated tlie case of t'le Methodist clergymen, repr.-»^"«?nting them to be almost all natives of the United States, whereas the far greater pn»porlio.i rf them are stated to be British subjects; have yoiianj knowledge upon that subject ? — I know them to be all but four British subjects. Thoreare 46 itinerant ministers v ho fri ir the Canada Conference, and 31 of the 4Garo British sub- jects by birth and educxtioii, li of them are British sulijects by qatumlissation, and three only are aliens, and those have lived several years in the country, and can now under the new Alien Act be naturalized, Are those ministers who constitute the Methodist itinerancy of Upper Canada under the orders of the conference of the United States of America, or do tliey assemble annuallj in Upper Canada?— Thoy assemble annually in conference in Upper Canada; they re- ceive no minister from the United States, nor any other country, without a vote of a ma- jority of the conference, anda regular probation for two years. What proportion do you conceive the ipembers of the Church of England bear to t' e whole population in Upper Canada? — It is impossible for me to say. Do yon think they are one tenth part of the population ? — I do iiot think they arc. Do you think thev are one fifteenth ? — It :. probable they do amount to that, or per- kws to on^ tenth ; I should think there is one ofth part of the population in Canada tiut *=^7F1 ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. U tfl lo not beloDff to any relifnous denomination, although they may b« more favourable to one ^^ than to anotner, and they (generally attend one of the places of M-onihi|> in preft-rcnce to Ctorgt tt ftrrMtt, What do you conceive would be the bent way of nettlinff a prOviflion to supply the reli- '^ *'""* '"■**■ •tool wants of the country in Upper Canada? — I think tiuit at least nineteen tMcntioths gf the country with that the clcrj^y reserves sliould be appropriated for tlifj establishment of ichools. Do you think that it would be desirable to allow the ministers of religion in Upper Ca- Dsda to depend whoUv upon voluntary contribution for support ? — Yes, I tliink it would , be much the bent ; I tiiink it would be conducivo to the interests of religion, and it is not merethoury ; we are living by the side of the United States where the ministers ure sup- ported in that way ; I was several months in that country attendingdift'erent places of wor- ihip, and 1 found them much more respectably attended, and the ministers better support- rd, and a greater decency prevailing in congregations both in the Episcopal t'hurch uud in othrn*. Ine Episcopal (Jhurcli in the United States is decidedly superior to ours in Ch- Dda, and it is supported by voluntary contributions of the people. In addition to this, oc- etiionalaid might ue granted by the Legislature of the province. Uo you believe that the Church of England would have a better chnnce of becoming po- puUrin ('anada if the causes oljealously were removed which at present exist ? — Yes, de- fidedlv so, and her greatest enemies are those who would estabii»>li invidious distinctions bftwecn her ministers and others. The ecclesiastical cliart has done Iter i. fatal injuiT. if tlie Rystem commenced be persisted in, it will destroy tlie influence of the church in Ca- nada. Didthe Legislative Council concur rvith the House of Assembly iu those resolutions n- bout the clergy reserves '< — No. Has not the' Legislative Council very frequently been opposed to the wishes of the Hous« «f Assembly on other suhjects ? — They are always expected to oppose the House of Asj^eiu- lily on all acts of a libornland popular tendency, particularly if tney have for their object the pxtpusion of religious liberty. . , . <, i. , o ■»• Poes the Legislative Council consist chiefly of placeraon.i' —\ es. Can von give the committee any statement relative to the persons of whom the Legisla- tive Council is composed V — It contains five wlio are members of the Executive Council ; Ihevarp, the Honourable William Campbell, clief justice, the Speaker, the Right Rever- end the Bishop of Quebec, the Honourable James Baby, inspector-general, the Hououi- Hblc ArclKh'acon Strachan, and the Honourable George Markland. Seven of the other members of the Council are persons holding ortices of emolument under the (iovernment ; thevare, the Honourable W. D. Powell, who is now in England on a pension, the Honour- able Jo'm McOill, the late inspector-general, &c. w!,o is retired on a pension, tlie-Honour- i' i.. who holds numerous offices ; the other five aie persons not holding places of cmolumerit imder Government, and tl»ey are, the Honourable Thomas Clark, the Honourable William Diikson, the Honourable Neil McLean, the Honourable George Crookshank, and tho Honourable Angus Mcintosh ; ttie Honourable Thomas Talbot has never taken iiis scat »s a le'nslative counsellor. , . « ., ,.«. Can you state any other subject on which the Legislative Council havo diifered from the House of Assembly in Upper Canada ? — I can state with confidence that several instances ofthe character before mentioned occur every session of the Legislature, but as I have not bcenfurnished with documents on the subject lam not prepared to enter into details; the fuct is notorious, and has been tlie subject of much discontent for a number of years ; we have iu fact but two branches of a Parliament, tlie Commons and the Executive ; an en- li'itened and independent aristocracy is unknown in Canadian legislation, I speak of a lar^e majority of the Legislative Council. Have the same quarrels with regard to the indepenuence of the judges taken place in Upper Canada which have taken place in Lower Canada ?•<— There is a £fierence of opin- ion, but I cannot bring to my recollection the particulars, with sufficient clearness to state them in evidence. The House of Assembly are for the independence of the judges, but I io not know that any specific measure on the subject has been matured. Do ;' tt9 MINUTJI* OF EVIDENCB BEFOEfi »PtECT COMMITTEE Mr. - - Do youconceive thataoy alteration in the contpositioa of the LegidAtive Council ii m Georgt Rj,erun, ^^^ly deaireJ by the inhabitants of Upper Canada ?— Yes > and I believe that nearly % ' jjnc jogg^^ o»n* grievances would be removed by the Legislature of Upper Canada vere the Lc^risIatiTe Council independent i without »onie change in this part of our constitution I believe no re. me.iy Ci i be eftectiial; andtjliis X have reason to tniuk is tlio general opinion in Upper Cttiiada. Do you imagine that the feelings of the population of Upper Canada are favourable j^, the idea of a union of the two provinces or not ? — I do not think thtfy are : the feeliuffs of commercial men are in favour of it, but not of the publie generally ; it is very unpopular ia ' mostpartsof Upper Canada. Has the province of Upper Caniida an agent in England ? — No. , Has the House of Assembly ev^' expressed a « isli to have an agent resident in Eof uud ' / . —I believe they have, but I do not recollect the particulars. In what way would it be possible to give the Upper ProriuL'e a seaport without joining; Montreal to it ? — I do not know any other way ; our dilficulties with Lower Canada reUt« t9 revenue, and would qU be settled by giting' Upper Canada a seaport. Tiiis is a measure much desired in Upper Canada, and it would enable us to conduct our conunei*cial huaucial <)onflem8 without being subject to continual collisiona with Lower Canada. ' Do you consider that tliere would be insuperable difficulties to rpiestions of trade beiih; decided between the t w© provirceS without resorting to a union ? — I cannot say ; the uuiou of the provinces would most probably be injurious toboth. Could not it be settled by deputation from the tno Houses ?— I think no satisfactory and permanent arrangement could be effected in this way; wo liave tried it long nithuutauy neueficial results^ Ii r/v^ Additional narticujars, in auswei^ to the questions of the Canada Committee relative io .„ " the Religious Denominations of Upper Canada : — These are, Isf.Epiaconalians ; 2il, Presbyterians; 3d, Methodists ; 4th, Baptists; 5th, Qua- ker8;6th^Menonists; 7th, Roman Catholics; and few others very inconsiderable in numbfr. , The Episcopal clergy are paid by the British Government and the Propagation So<'ietr, and in no instance by their congregations ; therefore the number of clergymen alfurd^ no criterion by whidh tojudge of the probable number of churchmen in Upper Canada. Under tlie term Presbyterian, I include the Independents and the Presbyterians of . Upper Canada, as well as the less numerous congregations connected with the Church of Scotland. They are, in general, ia favour of an impartial appropriation of the reli<,noiu funds of thecblony for the benefit of all denominations of Christians. I do not know that awy of the Presbyterians in Upper Canada have petitioned for a division of the clerjy reserves between themselves 'and the Episcopal Church. I believe that a more eqnitakle . appropriation for the good of all classes is approved not only by them bnt even by a ma- ' jority of churchmen in Upper Canada. The Baptists I do not think arc so numerous as the different classes of Presbyterian!), but I believe they are in gi neral more influential. They are stated to have 45 uiiuisteni and 86 chapels ; they occasionally itinerate, but not on a regular system. The Quakers and the Menonists, a large body of German settlers, ai-e valuable ink- bitants, and occupy several very flourishing settlements. The Methodists are represented in an annual conference consisting of 46 itinerant ftreachers. They have 117 itinerant and other minbteni ; 66 chapels ; 623 places, iadiid' ug chapels, where Divine Service ia regularly performed, ana 130 phices where it is occasional ; tfaei« are 9,009 communicants belonging to their societies, and about 38,000 regular hearers, making about one-^th of the population of Upper Canada. Tiiey hare the only missiou for the conversion of the Aborigiueii of Upper Canada, I mean the Chippewa or Midsissauga Indians, 500 of whom have been brought to Christianity* The . astonishing and beneficial change which they have been the means of effecting in the ■ character, habits and condition of these poor savages, has been noticed with approbation by Sir Peregrine MaiUaad, as well as bv the House of Assnnbly. The Methodis^H main- taialO tcboola^ where iHl Indian children are instructed, and are rapidly acquiriogthe art! m 1 riEE Council ii p. hstt nearly ail ;he Lojrulatife I believe no re- uiou iu Upper ) favourable to the t'eoliui(sof y UBpopukr in atinEDguuid? withoitt joinini; r Canada relate his is a measure uercial duaDcUl 3 of trade beiiH; , say ; the uiiiou satisfactory and Dng nithuutauy littee relative to Oir THE CIVIL GOVBRNMBNT OF CANADA. ■»/ aptists;5th,Qiia- rable in nuuiber. agatiou Society, lergfymen afFords Der Canada, 'resbyterians of th the Church of of the relijfious I do not know jion of the clerjy more equitable ivt even by a ma- f Presbyterians, ave 4^ miuisten fe valuable inb- ' of 46 itinerant J3 places, includ- laces wliere it is 1 UEkd about 38,000 Ada. They haTe I Lada, I mean the iristianity. The effecting in the ,„ ith approbation I iMethodistsraaiu- liy acquiring the art» arts and liabits of civilization and of Christianity. The tnettiodists, bymeang ofasyste- Mr. matic itinerancy, affords" religious instruction to ©very part of tlie country, and the re- Geo. Byemm, ligious services rendered the colony by this body of christians alone, would, if performed r** ^ ^ l(y a resident parochial clerg jr, cost the Government at least 20,0001. y : annum. The l» Jun« ^ Wt. Ilcthodists formerly received missionaries from the United States, but they have for lome yean been under the care of their own ministers. They have now dissolved all con- nection with the Methodists in the United States, and measnrcs sure in progress whicU will probably lead to a more intimate connection with the Wesleyan Methodists in En- ^lana. Under the existing regnlations, the Methodists, in common with oilier dissenters, are excluded from any participation in the provisions made for the support of a Protestant clerpfy in Canada, as vrell as from the honours aid privileges of the University. I hare stated it as my opinion, that a permanent endowment for a|ined in this country tend to destroy British inflnence in Canada. The clergy re- servei are generally acknowledged to be a very great hindrance to the improvement of the country. They mi^ht be sold to form a permanent fund for the encouragement of religion, education and internal improvement generally, and would no doubt be usefully and equitably appropriated for those purposes by the Provincial Lvsgislature, were they aathorized to do it. i I firmly believe that the prosperity of the Episcopal church in Canada, the interests of kH^ou generally in the colony, as well as its peace and welfare, would be the most effect lually promoted by removinjf every invidious distinctioi^ on account of religious opinions, and by giving assistance and protection to all. ^ ' I believe it to be the wish of f\ill nineteen-twentieth s of the inhabitants of Upper Canada that all the clergy reserves should be sold, and the proceeds appropriated by the Pro- "M t vincial Legislature, on such principles as will not countenance any distinction on account ofr«ligious profession or belief, for the purposes of education and internal improvement intheir most extensive seuse, including the building of school houses, places of worship, assistance to mission or native schools, to poor settlements for the maintenance of clergy-i men, &c. &c. The clergy reserves, which arc now considered a great public injury, and Thich are the cause of much jealousy, contention and dissatisfaction, would, by such an appropriation, become the source of incalculable benefits and advantages to every class of i ttie inhabitants, and would proportionably increase their attachment to the Government, and restore harmony and confidence in the colony. 1 fully acquiesce m the sentiments 'pressed in an Address to His Majesty fVom tha House of Assembly of Upper '"Jai a .a, on the subject of the clergy reserves and of the University of Upper Canada 'ItAc i^Ij^.-. C:\IS28. I believe this address to be a real ex- pression of public opinion in Conada, and 1 fornl this ooncli'sion from an intimate know- ledge of the country for roi' ' ^ears. The report of a Select Commiltee of the Honse of Assembly of Upper Cip id<*. jn which this address was founded, dat-^d 15th March 1828, I hrish also to state, contains iiii^^ )rtant facts connected with th <«<> "v^^iects. In explanation of my ana\ era to the quesHons relative to the Legislative Council, I I wish to remark. The change desired in this body, is, that the Legislative Council he so constituted that |«mq;on7'^ of its members be gentlemen whose interests are inc'tentified with those of the I inhabitants^ and who nmther hold offices of emolum^:ut uud?r the Colonial Government, Dor belong to the Executive Council, I wish also to r<»»Tect a very erroneous opinion ■ which I have heard expresf^ed in this count"y, namely, that tre .nhabitants of Upper Ca- Inada wisii for or prefer a t/ewocracy, Tli«it are vivrn-.iy at^ichcd to the British Govern^ jnent, and giveit a deliberate and rflecicferf pr* to ren? w,)» Id prefer lib«rty uit,der a regui liar government to the anarchy and strife of %»%..' &cy. Additional %: '^ ■ i ' 11 • 4.. t9c». Mr. Ryerton. ijA Minutes of evidence beforb select committee . Additional remarks, in answers to the questions relating to the Union of th< Tiro Canadas : — lb June 1888. This I said is ^enerallf unpopular in Upper Canada. But the annexation of Montreal to Upper Canada, to which it naturally and equitably belongs, would. I believe, meet • ' ' with universal approbation. This extension of Upper Canada to its obvious andnatnral boundary, the eastern branch of the Ottawa, -by giving^ us a sea port, would settle our financial difficulties with Lower Canada, and would be doing no injustice to that proviDce . The commerce of Montreal is chiefly with the Upper country, whence it derives us wealth ahd prosperity. This commerce is principally profitable to the Montreal mercliaut • all our wealth flons to it, and we receive no advantages in return : we laI)our to enrich ano- ther Province, and have no control over the wealth which our industry produces. lu Upper Canada we possess no means for internal improvement, and scarcely a ciix riaua,r medium sufficient for the ordinary transaction of business. The advantages to Upp^ ^ Canada, and to Great Britain, that would result from such a measure, areTl think, manr and important. In Upper Canada it would give a powerful impulse to industry, com. merce and general improvement, would increase the facilities for transporting produce and consequently augment the consumption of British nianufactures. It would more entirely detach the interests of Upper Canada from the United States, and unite ua more intimately with Great Britain. 1 have no doubt that in a very few years, steam-boati Irould navigate to Lake Huron. It would more than realize to us i/sery possible advan* tagc- of the union, without any of its obvious and perhaps insurmountable -ffici ; ?s, i :>, have reason to believe that the commercial and influential inhabitants of Mo.> r-jal i)^oaU he pleased with the measure. GEO. RYERSOI^. \ rXEE >fth« Tiro a of Montreal believe, meet us and natural >uld settle our > that province, rives its wealtli mercliaut ; ail ' to enrich ano- r produces, h y a cm iiailajj Cages to Upper , I think, manT industry, com. orting produce, It would more unite ua mort irs, steam-boati possible advan> 8 "fllci , ?g. I Mo.> ' "jal rQvM YERSOI^. \ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. m Sabhati, 21®. die Junii, 1828. James Stephen, junr. Esq., called in ; and Examined. What office do you hold in the Colonial Department ? — I am Counsel to the Colonial Department. In that situation have you frequently subjects connected with the two Canadas under • your attention ? — Frequently ; because as all the Acts passed by the Legislatures of the tHO Canadas are referred to me for my opinion in point of law, it becomes necessary for me in consideri'^g them to make inquiries into t e public affairs of those provinces. .Are you at all acquainted with the mode in which clergymen are appointed to the differ- ent dUtiicts m Upper and Lower Canada ? — The clergymen of the oiiurcli of England in the Canadas are not incumbents of livings. They are rather missi{>naries of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel. Has the Colonial Department any control over their appointment ?— When a vacancy occurs among the clergy of the church of England in either of the Canadas it is reported by the Governor to the Secretary of State, wlio calls on the Ecclesiastical Commission to nominate a propei candidate. Of course their recommendation is usually accepted. Are there any applications made by individuals to the Colonial Department for ap- pointments, or do they always go in the first instanr;e to tlie Ecclesiastical Commission ? —Applications are c.ten made directly to the Colonial Department. In strictness all applications should be made to the Secretary of State, because the Ecclesiastical Com- mission exists merely as a board of reference from the Colonial Department. Canyon state how long tl:e practice has been disused of having all applications made , to the Colonial Department ? — 1 should say that the practice is not disused at present. The appI'"ations made to the Ecclesiastical Commission are not applications to the pa- tron, but to persons who have it in their poner to recommend applicants to the patron. Was not the course taken of this kind, that the names of certain persons who were desirous of appointineuts in the church in Canada being known to tl^e Colonial Office, that office was desirous of ascertaining, t!. rough the means of the Ecclesiastical Com- miagion. whether they M-ere fit persons or not ? — Just so ; the Secretary of State con- (e'v.'U : 'inself inadequate to form aright judgment of the competency of a clei^yman for lis'^wit. » duties. lutho-^Tuer case, would not the suggestion of individuals to Ite appointed originate ":^h (So Colonial Department, and does it not now happen that the suggesthin of in- ili.Uia 3 rests with the Ecclesiastical Commission? — It the fact is inquired into, and iiottac tiuton^^ I should answer that in point of fact the Ecclesiastical Commission it substantially ixitrou of all the church preferment of the government of the colonies. Doci Mr.'liamilton hold any situation connected with the Colonial Department, or is he solely employed by the Ecclesiastical Commission '( — He is secretary to the Ecclesias- tical Commission, and, as I suppose, received his appointment from the commissioners. The Colonial Depaitmeutis in constant communication with that body, and be is the acting member. By uhomwas the Ecclesiastical Commission appointed ? — I apprehend that the Eccle- siastical Board are not constituted by any " commission" in the legal sense of that wor4« but the Secretary of State requested the Archbishops and the Birhop of London, to ren- der h>:;i their assistance in the proper disposal of this part of his patronage. In orddr to . .••hevo those prelates from some of the dimculty in vthich they were involved by comply- i' ^ v^ i^b that request, the Treasury authorized their Lordships to employ a secretary, slliich secretary is Dr. Hamilton. By whom was Mr. Hamilton recommended for appointment to the situation which h« DOW holds ? — I believe by the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department. ' F 8 Dp«f Slfiihen, juN, June, ■■». w\ J] HI il 11 :".' 1 I8i8, .! « : J m%\ •■¥\ 22« MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE i n Etquire. 21 Jun* 1828. Does the Colonial Department exorcise any control whatever over either the appoint- J. SUphfn,Jan.J^f,J^^ of individuals to, or the raanaj^oment of, the aflairs of the chiiroh in Canada ?— It has no other management, that I can perceive, of the aftoirsofthe churcli iu Lower C'aua- da, than that which conbists in appointing the dij,'nitarie8 and the clergy. Can you {five the Committee any iuformation respecting the Church Corporation ?— The Chui'ch Corporation is created by a Commission uudei the public Seal of tiie pro- vince of Lower Canada, and it has always been doubted whether the Governor had any strict legal right to issue such a commission. When was it issued ? — I believe about nine years ago. Of whom does it consist ? — I believe it to consist of the bishop, the archdeacons of the two provinces, and (he clergy of the church of England. They are all, as I understiiiid, members of this corporation virtute officii, but I have never seen tlie instrument; we Iiavo no copy of it iu Dowuiug-street, and I can therefore §peak of it only from the reprcieuta- tions of others. Do you know what powers they have under that commission ? — I (hlnk their poners are confined to granting leases for the terra of 21 years, and to the prevention of trespas- ses on the clergy reserves. They are a corporation of management merel} ; tl.ey have uo power to pppropriai. a rent which thcj receive. Is the rent receivec. > y I'lem ? — The rent, 1 apprehend, is paid over to the receiver- general of the provi?i_. To him directly ? — I h ve that the clergy collect it in their different districts, from the tenants, and pay it ovoi . the receiver-general. In what way is it appropriated ? — Hithei'to iha sum has been so inconsiderable that no discussion has arisen about the appropriation of it. I understand that it goes iu aid of the fands out of which the clergy arc paid. To whom docs the receiver-general account for the mone)' ? — The receiver-general accounts for all his receipts to the Lords Commissioners of the Treasurv. Does not he make a separate account to all the other persons of the money received for the clergy reserves ?— He would also, I apprehend, if required, account to the corporation. Is any copy of the account rendered of this money^annually transmitted to this country ? — It is not very much in my way to know what accounts of money are transmitted; I think however that they are not sent annually. Would they appear in the details of the accounts rendered to the Treasury ? — Yes. Have you ever heard w) at it amounts to annually? — I 1 avc heard it stated, that in ,:i: Lower Canada the gross rent amounts to 900/. a year ; but tliere is in Downing-street an ex8 3t w.ccount of the gross rent and actual receipt from the clergy reserves in Lower Canada, and of the appropriation of it. Do you know whether it is rapidly increasing? — I apprehend it is not. Have they any other power than tt'at of leasing the land ? — I am not aware that they have any other powers except that of leasing, and that of preventing trespasses. Has. any wish been expressed by the Churcli Corporation to alter or to increase those powers ? — A wish to that effect was expressed by some of the Canadian clergy. What powers did they think that it would be expedient to vest in the Church Cor- poration ?- They wished to have powers resembling those whicli were granted to the Corporation in New Soiitli Wales, wliich powers are much more ample. What are those powers ? — In New South Wales, in every county, a hlock of land is Mt apart, which is conveyed to a corporation, called "Trustees of tlie School and Clei^y •Reserves." The Corporation l.ave the power of selling one third of what is so set apart for them, and applying one half of tl-e produce of those sales to t'e improvement of the rest. The Corporation are to grant leases of what remains in its improved state, and the rents which they are to receive from those leases, with tlie interest ai-ising for one half of the proceeds of the sales, are to be divided into two equal shares. Of these, one is to be applied in supporting schools for the education of children in the principles of the estab- lished Church of England ; the remaining half is to be applied to the sup|.ort of the hishou and archdeacon in the first place, and then for the support of the otiier clergy of thfe Cniirch of England. When those objects are effectually provided for, the surplus is to be applied in whatever manner the King shall be pleased to direct< Have ■ i ■:t ' 1 » ^. ''*:it es iu Lower OX TIIK CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. mt llavc any steps been taken towards extcnfling' the powers of the Cliurch Corporation ? — i. . "So. J- fflfphrn, Jan. Arc you at all arr|'if»inte Do you know what nnmher of loa-ses lave been made ? — I do not. Aro you of opinion t at Hie Act of 17U! contemplates the endowment of the Church of Euj-'laad, but that at the same time, with respect to lands which are not necessaiy to be npmiedfor theendo" ment ofthe c'lurch, the rents and profits of those lands may be ap- plic-iible, at the discretion of the Crown, to the purposes of a Protestant Clerjj., speakinv jrcQcrally ? — As I understand the Act of 1791, it distinguishes between the clergy of the Church of England and a Protestant cler■■■%■■ I 1 ;v •t'h ^.cl i!( 936 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE /*■ 1 :■:». ■ •% ^ y; $^-A. f^y tI^^h^i that whenever any Act is passed by the Legislative Council and Assembly of either of the provinces, to vary or repeal any of those provisions respecting the allotment and appro- priation oi'lands tor t'le support of a Protestant clergy within the said provinces, or res- pccting the constituting, erecting or endowing parsonages, or respecting the prpseiita- tion oi incumbents or ministers to the same, or respecting the manner in which su(hinciim> bents shall hold them, & that whenever any Act siiall be so passed contiiining any provisions aifecting the exercise of any religious form or mode of worship, or shall impose or create any penalties, burthens, disabilities, or disqualifications in respect of the same, or sliall in any manner relate to or affect the payment, n jovery or cnj»>yment of any of the accustomed dues or rights hereinbefore mentioned, or shall in any manner relate to the granting, im- poiing or recovering any other dues, or stipends or emoluments whatever, to be paid to or fort e use of any minister, priest, ecclesiastic or teacher, according to any religious form or mode of worship in respect of his said office or function, every such act must, before it receives lh J King's assent, belaid before tf»e Parliament of (ireat Britain. Now as it seems to me in all these passages the Church of England is expressly mentioned where tlie Church of England is meant. And where the more compre' ensive sense is to be con- veyed, the m'-'!' mprehensiveterm, ** a Protestant clergy" is employed. What meak-d :.; Jo you attach to the latter part of that paragraph, especia ly to the words " any other dues ?" — I explain t le words thus : this Act of Parliament, in the earlier sections, refers to the dues and r'ghts belonging to the Roman Catholic clergy. In thij passage'its lai ,. -^tge ,, ' If the Legislature of the Canadas shall grant or impose any other dues," — oiher, Ihat is, than those which belong to the Catholic clergy, — " tl:en t|i« King shall not have the power of assenting to such an Act until Parliament has had the • oppoii;unity ofseeing and considering it." Do you consider that clause as in any way a guarantee against the possible invasion by the Assembly of what had been granted to the Catholic clergy? — I apprehend that the object of t>'e clause is rather to take some security that the Legislature of tne Cana- das sliould not establish any objectionable form of worsliip, or impose on the King's sub- jects there any dues for its support. Before the/King can assent to any such law Par- liament claims ap opportunity ofseeing- it. This is, in fact, a jealousy of the King legisla- ting, witli the consent of the Provincial Assembly, on the subject of religion. In clause 37, it is ejiacted, " That all and every the rents, proiits or emoluments which may at any time arise h'ora sucTi lands so allotted and appropriated as aforesaid, shall be applicable solely to the maintenance and support of a Protestant clergy within the province in which the same s' all be situated, and to no other use or purpose whatever." As the next clause limits the endowment to the Church of England, is it your opinion that the rents, profits and emoluments arising from lands not endowed roust be, at the discr^ tion of the Crown, applicable for the general purposes of a Protestant clergy ? — Appli- cable for any Protestant olerey establisiid by the law of tl'is land. Will you point out to the Committee any provision in this Act which appears to permit the appropriation and allotment of land specifically to a Protestant clerg> , as contrasted with the appropriation of a portion oftiie rents and profits arising from the lands ?— I apprehend that the 37th clause, which authorizes the application of " rents, proiits and emoluments" to the maintenance of a Protestant clergy, can-ies ivith it a power to the King to appropriate, in perpetuity for that purpose, any portion of the li^id whence those " rents, profits and emoluments" are to arise. The land so to be appropriated may, in my apprehension, be given either to the English or to the Scotch clergy. That the land itself is to be held in mortmain, and is to be inalienable, I suppose to beamatterofcoune, Do you conceive, according to jour interpretation of the term Protestant clergy, that other Presbyterians than those in communion with the Church of Scotland woum come within the letter of the Act ? — I think not. I apprehend that no man is a clergyman of the Kirk of Scotland who is not appointed to that office pither by the General Assemblv, •r \>y some of the Presbyteries dependent upon it, A person calling himself a Pres- byterian ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ' 920 J. Stephen, jun. bvtorian who is altogether unallied with the Church of Scotland, does not, as I conceive, JiMi"ire» fome witliiu the meaning of the term "a Protestant clerpy," as that e.\'{)res8iuu must be' " — * ^-\ uuderstood when used by the United Parliament of Enirland and S^cotland. ^1 June is'ja. Do you tlicn consider the Presbyterians of the Synod of Ulster as not recoj^niscd by law as a Protestant clergy in the country ? — I apprehend the Presbyterians of the Synod S , of Ulster are not recognised b\ law as an established church in this country. The Acts of Union prevent the legal establishment of the Church of Scotland in any part of the United Kinjjdora except Scotland. Did not tlie arrangement that was made with the Canada Company contemplate tha gale of a part of the clergy reserves ? — Yes, a sale of one half. Were the powers of that sale obtained under a special Act of Parliament ? — Yes. Were they confined to the sale to the Canada Company, or were they suflicientlv ex- tensive to enable the Government to sell the clergy reserves to any person that would buy thcrai* — No; Parliament authorized merely a sale to the Canada ('onipan.v. Do you know any t: ing of the appropriation of the income of the estates that formerly belonged to the Jesuits ? — I understand them to be appropriated for the education of Pro- testants exclusively. Do you hold that according to the existing statutes, the Government have ti'o power pf appropriating them at their own discretion ? — Supposing them to be the territory of the Crown, the revenue arising from them is part of tlie territorial revenue of the Crown, and may be appropriated at its discretion. Whether tlie Crown really i?, in point of strict law, entitled to those estates, is a question of the most complex and iutricatc nature. It de- pends on the proceedings in the Parliament of Paris on the dissolution of the order of Jct suits, and on the judicial sentences to which those proceedings gave occasion. Can you give the Committee any information upon that subject 'i — 1 can give no infor- . mation which it would be n''orth troubling tliem with. In what way can the Committee obtain information upon this subject ? — There is a Re-^ port of a Comrait<^ee of the House of Assembly on Education, on the subject of the Jesu- its estates, which forms a thin octavo printed volume. They were promised to Lord Am- herst, but it was found impossible to carry the promise into execution, in consequence of objections made to the title of the Crown. The consequence was, that Lord Amherst'f heirs resigned their pretensions to these estates, and an application was made by the Crowa to Parliament to grant a pension as a substitution for them. A pension was accordingly granted. From that time to the present the estates have been in the possession of the (Yown, wi id) has been receiving the rents, and applying them for the education of the - Protestant children of the country. Are you aw are of there being any legal opinion in favour of the right assumed over thein by the Crown ? — Yes, there were legal opinions by the law-officers of the province. Have there been any legal opinions by the law officers of the Crown in England ? — Yes, by the late Sir James Mairiott, ana the attorney and solicitor general De Grey, and Norton. Do you know t'le amount of the revenues arising from those lands? — I do not with acr cnrac) ; I suppose the net revenue to be small ; a few hundred pounds annually. Can }'ou state what was the uinount of the revenues of the .Jesuits estates under any previous management? — I cannot. In other colonies, where independent Legislatures exist, can you inform the Commit- tee wliat has been the course with regard to the appropriation of the revenue ; does there exist in any pf those colonies, any fund which is at the disposal of Government ; or is ' there in any of those colonies any permanent establishment, independent of tiic vote of the Legislature, for the governor or the judges, or any other officers of the colony ? — Bv the general instructions which the governor takes with him to all the colonies in which there are legislative assemblies he is required not to ponsent to any act till a pro- fer settlement has been made upon himself during his administration of the government. > n point of fact, the administration of a new governor almost always begins by the en- ,. •ctment of a law, which places him in a state of independence of those whom he is to go- vern. But with this exception there is not any permanent establishment beyond the con-^ trol of the Legislature. I believe I can undertake to say, that there is not any one pf A« Legislative coloiue« in which the King has any settled revenue which is not virtu- '•i ? »jja ■U" SI June 1SJ8 i 130 MINUTF.S OF EVIDF.NCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ally iijlijoct to IpjTlsliitlve control. The torrltorial revcmift and the revenue arising from J. 5'/c;)/i/'n, jtin.fiupj., forfeitures and other incidents of that niitnre constitute flie only exceptions. E-iqiiiie. Is tlipre auv (►ther permanent provision made, oxceptiu;^ tliat for t!ie {(ovcnior r—I;, *Jamaifii, ami in many otiier colonies, salaries are settled upon the Judjres; but .still it jj in tin? power of the Asseniblv not to vote the funds out of which those salaries are to be paid. Ihe votes are invariably annual. Is there a deputy-governor in any other colonv ? — There are many lientenant-pfovprnnrs actin^f as st leffal aut'iority, the Government have alwaj s raaintaiued their rijj^ht to pay the governor out of the cxistinnf revenue. Are you certain of that, or is it only a {general impression ? — I have only a j^eneral Jm. pression ; but it is an impression derived from some familiarity «ith the journals of the House of Assembl' , u j^reat part of which I have read pnd considered attentively. In your opinion, would any inconvenience be likely lo arise from appointin'ir jud^res upon the same footinw upon which t!icy are appointed in this country i* — Yes, I sliouM rejjret t'e appointment of judges independent of the Crown, in any cofony. What reasons have )OU for entertaining tliat opinion ?-^Mv reasons are these. Tho jjcii. tlemen of tie bar who go out to tho colonies as judges, are oif course seldom selected from the most successfu' members of the legal proti^ssiou. They arc frequently \ oung men, and (witliout meaning to say one word disrespectfully of them) they are seldom well known. They go to a small society-, where .as a matter of course, (for it may he said to be the na- tural state of all sraaM societies) they find violent feuds and parties. How they will con- duct themselves in such situations raiist always bo a matter of conjecture, and doubtful ex- periment. If the judge were independent and irrremovable, I fear he would too often be- come the ally of some one or other of the local parties. His authority and influence would be almost without limit, and he would be obnoxious at once to unbounded adulation and reproach. Holding in his hands all tlie power connected with the administration of justice, he would be violently tempted to abuse it to party purposes. The grievance of the dc- pendanco of the judges on the Crown is, I think, on tlie other hand, nearly imaginarv. Remembering the responsibility under which the ministers of the Crown act in this coun- try, the danger of their removing a judge without the most grave and sufficient cause, is surely very inconsiderable. You must remember too, that every other public officer in the colony, even the governor himself, holds during pleasure. If you arm the judge with the wl'ole powers of the law, and place him in perfect independence, without any large so- ciety to che«k and control him,can \ ou expect that he will not be a little intoxicated witlMhat elevation, and that the judicial will not be gradually merged in the political character. If it were thought desirable for any reasons to make, from any source, a perraaiieiit provision for t'le judges, would there not be something absurd in making a jtermancut ■ provision for a judge removable at pleasure ? — It would be a permanent provision, not for the removable judge, but for the pennanent office. Since you think it desirable ti^at the judges should be in a certain degree dependent upon the Crown in the colonies, do you not think it a natural and proper wish on the part of the Legislatures of those colonies to retain a certain check upon the proceedings of the judges, by keeping in their hands the power of annually voting their salaries?— I think n6t. In a small colony, or even in a large colony, people are exceedingly united to each otl>er by domestic, social and party ties, and such unions exercise the most powerful influence in the legislative bodies. When a judge is dependent upon them, there will al- ways be a danger lest he should make unworthy and unbecoming concessions to concili- ate tlieir good-will or to avert tlieir displeasure. Has much practical inconvenience of th.at kind arisen in the 6ther colonies where tbe judges are dependent upon tlie Legislatures? — In most of tl;e colonies the judges dcptuJ niaoh more upon fees than upon the Legislatures. In the island of St. Vincent's thev have m fef' ON TUB CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 231 late votod the judire a salary, and tlioy liave done the some thing in Jamaica and in^ sunfifH some oth«'r ishuids ; l)nt lees an; tlic ;>eueral resource. ' 'j^(,i,ir^ U there no diui;;»r of ;. ',!«»;)f.id.-M( jti'l;;«', Nm.li as >ou arc speakin/;^ ot\ becorainjr n, ^> — pwti/un with the executive pou'er it" there sliould be any diftercnce between t.at and21 June, l ti'.e wprcseutatives y — I think there is ; but you must make your choice between opposite (iau,'ei"s. Then i*^ is a «iere question of c';oice between the two degrees of danger? — It is, as iu ill other human alt'airs. 8iippo»innf that a juda. I2i. I 1,1 \ i 1 :• It 1 ' 1 i1 «7. S/fjihcn Ki.«|iiirt' f- -A-_ 21 J una 1 ■f,t MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SEL'ECT COMMITTEE qnivoral, I should prefer the inconteuicnce of employing the judge to the iuconvonii'rKc- jun. of losing his asNistance. Do you think tiiat the circumstance, either of the dependence of the judges tijion the ~ — ^ Government for their continuance in office, or of the dependence of the judges iihoii the H2t}. Assembly for their sahiries, is at all inlluenced hj the circumstance of *h fjuently increased, and the objection to that dependence augmented. Do not you think that if that independence of the judges was once ascertiuncd it would lead to the sending out of men of rat'ier a higher c* aracter as judges ? — Not unless tluMi- emoluments were much greater than it is. At this time a puisne judge in Upper Canada receives only 900/. sterling annually ; he has no outfit uor pasxago found liim ; it Ik a mere 900/. sterling. Now there are few men who have borne the expense of a legal edu- cation, and who liave had any sort of success iu their profession,- who would emigrate to a foreign land for such a remuneration. Would not the ' Government, if the judges were made independent, send out men of higher moral character, and men less likely to violate their public duties? — I eptirely dis- claim having meant to impugn tlie moral cBai'acter of those who go at present; 1 Lave questioned only their discretion. Do not you think that the sacrifice of duty to party feeling intimates a moral wmt ?— As an abstract question, I should say so; but in truth, men slide so easily from tlio highest morality to a lower and more easy standard of morals, that one would hardly impeach a man's character upon that ground. Is it not within your ownknowledge that the individuals who are appointed to judicial situa- tions in the colonies always receive such testimony as to their character and couipvtoi.iy as to justify their appointment? — It is au established rule, and I should say a settled practice also. Do vou consider that it would be safe to leave to the Colonial Legislature the power of impeachment of the judges? — That dej>ends altogether upon the constitution of the tri- bunal by which tlie impeachment was to be trted. Whal; should you consider to be the requisites of the tribunal before which such im- peachments should be carried, under the conditions of which it would be safe to leave that power in the Legislative Body ? — They should be judges perfectly independent of the parties preferring the impeachment ; and they ought, if possible, to be judges quite remote from all tlie feuds and party feelings of the colony in which the impeachment arises. In the case of the charter which has recently beeu issued for the constitution of new courts in the Cape of Good Hope, the power of removing a judge is reserved to the Kjng in Council, but only upon proof of misconduct. The King in Council then is the tribunal before which the supposed impeachment is to be preferred; and that, in my niiud, is the best possible tribunal for such a purpose. Are the Committee to understand that in the charter to the Cape, the King is deprived of the power of removing a judge except under circumstances of misconduct ? — Yes. Then in point of fact, at the Cape, if a judge were to mix himself up with local parties, uuless it amounted to i^ome ostensible act of a violent nature, it would be impossible for the Crown to remove him ?— It would ; but the charter is avowedly an experiment, and as long as it is regarded in the lightof an experiment it may perhaps have a salutary effect in preventing any misconduct which might lead to an alteration of it. Mr. William Parker, called in ; and Examined. YOU are a Merchant in the city of Loi don ? — I am. Mr. Of what country are you a native ? — (tf Scotland. William. Parker. Have you resided in Lower Canada ?— I resided there 13 years without leaving llw '■^~ '^ « country, and afterwards made upwards of 20 voyages to Canada and Biitain. Have you any connection and interest in that country at present ? — Yes, very considera- ble ; I have debts on ing ; I have retired from business iu that country, but I have very considerable debts outstanding there. nconvciiifntc- ges iipoii the iclr iiittiiii,' iu the Asscnilily y, he is bound meed is couse- Gained it woiilil ot unless tlii'ir Upper Canada id liitn ; it ix a of a le^ral edu- ild vmigrate to nd out men of -I eptirely di>. rcseut ; 1 bave moral want ?— asily ftom tlio ) would hardly to judicial sitiia- ind conipeter.iy Id say a settled ire the power of ition ot the tri- which such im- )e safe to leave iudependent of be judges quite e impeachment ) constitution of reserved to tlic ncil then is the lat, in my miud, ling is deprived uct ?— Yes. ith local parties, B impossible for >eriraent, and u alutary efifectia out leaving: tli« an. , very considera- but I bavc vefy >Vliit ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT^OF CANADA. f33 ^Vliat M the opinion you may have formed of t!)o general character of t'le population of j^,, Ihal province from your own knowledge ? — I oousidor that the pouiantrv there ore the iruiiatn Parker, giiPit people in the world that ever I met with ; I had an opportunity ot^ knowinfif them, a , ferv intimately, I Hurceeded as a partner in a Frencli houMe in 1784, wliich had oxton* 21 Jud« 11128. tensive conuectionH with French Canadian merchants, iu the district of Montreal, when thrre was very little accommodation in the town of Montreal, and th when tiioy came to toHn,whiui) wai very frequently, and therefore I vas very much in thpir conipanjr. What are, in your opinion, f be causes of i^e disscnsionH whicli have prevailed in Canada for some time past ? — I think It is, in Home measure, owing to my countrymen the mer- cbuuts there, who are ambitious to he legislators ; and tliey are very much hurt that the French Canadians prefer their own countrymen as their representatives to them. , What is the character of the mercantile population in Montreal which you have spoken ' of; are they permanently resident in the country, or are they generallv people who make their money there, and tl^en come over to England ? — The French C'anadmns consider them not as lixtures, hut as movables, and therefore they have uot that confidence in them that they have in their own educated countrymen. Has the interest you hare in Canada induced you to enter into any correspondence of a public nature relative to ttie dissensions which have prevailed there, with a view to quiei» Lrthem, and preveotinc their recurrence ? — In 1822, when the union business ^aa brought forwara, I, jointly with Mr. Munro and Mr. Stanstield, addressed Lord Bathurst oubeliidfof the Canadians, and since the late dissensions I wrote to Mr. Huskisson in Sep- tember 1827 and January 1828 ; and these three letters I desire nuy be taken donn as part of my evidence, and inserted as such ; as also the letter from Mr. Wilmot UortOD in 1822. [The witnea$ delivered in the tame.] I' ^No. 1^ LETTEa to the llight Honourable Earl Bathurst, itAei 8 July 1822. d, John Street, America Square, 8th July 1822. My Lord, Our attention having* been dra%n to a bill .t^cently mtrodiutcd into the House of Com* mons, for uniting the two provinces of Upper and Lower Canada into one government, wo most respectfully, but most earnestly, enti^ai of your Lordship that the measure may not be proceeded in until the sentiments of the inhabitants shall have be«n ascertained. A long residence in the province of Lower Canada, and a connection of upwards of forty years Tiduable colonies, have afforded us the means of foiming an opinion on the subject, and with both these in we feel it our indispensable duty to state to your Lordship our strong conviction, that t)ie hurrting of this measure without giving the Canadians a hearing, u pgnant with themost disastrous consequences. Allow us, therefore, most earnestly to tfntreat that it may not be proceeded in until Hi« Majesty's Government shall have had an opportunity of learning lu a direct manner the lentiments and feelings of the parties whom it most concerns. We hare the honour to he with much respect. Your most obedient serv^Ats. The Right Honourable, Earl Bathurstj K. O. &c. &c. kc. (signed) Wm. Parker, D. Munro, G. Stat^field, 0« Ifo, 11 ir it » ■ 1)1 Mr. WUHam Parker. tl Jun« lO'iS. S|i IIINUTSS OF «V|I)ILNCB BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE , —No. 8.— LETTER from R. Ilorton, Esq., dated 10th Juljr 18«a. ColoaiuK mice, 10th July 1823. Gentlemen, Lord Bathurat directs me to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of tlie 8tl) inntant, requestinff that the Bill lately introduced into t^e HouHe of Cummonit mav not at ureient be proceeded in ; and I am to acquaint you, tiiat the measure birinj; beeu broii<^Mit turMard in Parliament after a full coiwultation and 8trun}( conviction ot'itH*>vii»(liency, hm Lord«bip canoot recommoud tbat it should be withdrawn in the present t)ta{(i pro)fri>H.s. 1 am, Gentlemen, your must i out servant, To William Parker, Esq. He. (wjfued) S, lluiion. —No. 3.— LETTEH to the Right Honourable William Uuskisson, duted 27th September 1827. Of Jolm Street, America Square, 27U^ September 1827. Sir, " . The controversies and increasing hostile feeling between the Representatives of the House of Assembly in Lower Canada, and the. Executive Government of that province, make so strong an imprcHNion on my mind as to the political cons' "^nces of sucli an un- happy state of tMngs, that I feul it., jay duty to make a communi a to vou on the sub- ject; for impressed as I am with a deep conviction that the Briti th American colo- nies are of the most vital importance to the empire, as well in a political as commerciul point of view, especially the tno Canad^, whicli not only consume largely themselves of British manufactures, but are the indirect cause of probably more than three fourths of their preselit consumption in the United States of America, the government of which, were it not for tho vicinity of our colonies, would exclude them by bi^h duties in favour of their own infant manufactures. Being at the same time convinced that these most va- luable colonies can only be preserved to the British Empire by uniting the whole popuhition of the two Canadas, and especially the French Canadians of the Lower Province, in a zealous and unanimoiLs defence against anjr possible hostile invasion on the part of the Government of the United States. From the knowledge I have of the temper and feeling!) of the French Canadians, derived from a long residence amongst them, and an intimate connection with all the different classes of these most invaluable British subjects, and more especially uith those of the higherordci-s,for nearl> the last fifty years, I religiously believe, that a more loyaU brave, and hardy race of men do not exist on thefaceof t!)e globe ; nor who arc more capable of the greatest* military exertions, and which tliey gave convincing proo£i of at their conquest by the British, when their numbers were not one sixth part of their pre- sent popiUation. I feel truly proud of them as British fellow-subjects, and would ever de- plore any unhappy circumstance tliat might throw them into the arms of the Uuited- States, the most dangerous rival of the Britisli Empire, and who are impatiently waiting for this most important event to enable them to rid North America of British residence, iu- flu9nce, and interference with their ambitious and aspiring Republic. Under this deep conviction, I am fully, persuaded that Government would consult the best interests of the empire bv granting (and without delay) to the inhabitants of the two Canadas every ri^ht and privilege tliat the citizens of the United States of America enjoy, with the exception of tneir dependence on the Crown of this empire as colonies. They ought, in my humble opinion, to have the election (as the citizens of the United States of the Union have) of every officer of the province,iincluding their Governor, Lieutenant-governor, judges, &c.&c. Under these very liberal circumstances I am convinced they would cheerfully consent to pay all their own expenses. Great Britain of course to pay any military force she might deem ON THE CIVIL OOVF.RNMKM OF CANADA. m if' dfftm it prn(I«nt to keep in any of tho.^o provinces, and which would he all t1i« expen«A .. ■ttcnriaiit on kpopin^f the two C^tiindaH as oolonies. Uilliam Parktr. So lilu^ral a mcaHnroaft thin would eflrfictiially Hccnretliw (fratitude, ronfidonoo, and oor-, -_^v- __^ (iia! nttiichinnnt of «»vcry Frencti ('iinudiiin in tnoNC nrovincoM, and would di'termiiie tlicm 2t Juno IHi!4. to make every Hafritice of life and fortnno tliat may »« necessary to preserve their oounec- tion with this empire a;;ain»t any hostile attempt on the part of the (tovernment of t'lO Uni- ted States, whom they cert.iinly do not like. I hejf le,«ve onee more to repeat mv finn fonviction, that we cannot pres.'rveonr North / nierican ciil;;!''*** frmn the {jraap of their unliitiouxnciffhhourH M'ithout the zealous and cordial co-operation of evory French Cana- dian in the Lower province ; hut, on the contrary, if wo secure their exertiouH, supported hra moderate British force of ahout 1(},(M)() men, I would not fear any uumbem tliat the lluitcd States could employ n^^ainst them. Tliey would soon tind their graves, or a prison, in that inlerestin{f province. I would ho most happy personally to e.\ulain the irrouudH on which my opinion is founded, when you think fit and at your convenience, wiU do me the honour to appoint a time to wait upon you for that purnoHO. I have the honoui to he, with ^reat respect, Sir, your obedient scrrar t, The Right Honourable William IIuNkisson, &c. &c. &o. (sij^Dod) Wm. Parhm: —No. 4— LETTER to the Right Honourable William Huskisson, dated 28th January 1828. 9^ John Street, America Square, 28th January 1828. Sir, I did myself the honour of addressing yon on the 27th September last, with my senti- meats in reg|ard of the unhappy differences existing between the Executive Government and the Legfislative Assembly of the province of Lower Canada, and of stating the dange- rous consequences that might follow thereupon, if not speedily removed ; but as I have re~ ceived no intimation that my letter has reached your hands, I am induced, in order ta guard against its possible miscaniage, to hand you a copy of it herew ith enclosed. I sm the more aesirous of doing this, as every event tl' at has occurred in that province once the date of mv said letter to you, tends to widen t!)e breach, and to alienate the affcc- tioni of the French Canadians, who have hitherto been justly considered the must loyal sub- jwti (without any exception) of His Majestv ; I feel it my duty, therefore, to rep(>at my /bmer conviction of the urgent necessity of a speedy and radical change in the system vineh has much too long prevailed of governing the Canadas, and more espociully the in- nlusble province of Lower Canada; for, constituted as things now are in t'lat country, in Uwevent of wnr, or invasion on the part of their neighboiurs, no effectual resistance could ntioDally be expected from the French Canadians who compose more than nine tenths of ^ population. The other tenth part, who are called English, consist of American loya- liits, American citizens, and emigrants from the United Kingdom — chiefly from Scoiland ; and from whose insignificant numbers and composition no effectual resistance could possi- bly be made toan invading enemy. And yet, small and unimportant as tl>is part of the po- pnUtioQ of Lower Canada is, they have in a great measure (ever since the American Re- Mlion) monopolized every place of honour and emolument under the Government, to the exclusion of the French Canadians, who, if justice were done to their abilities, educa- tion,loyalty, and importance in respect of influence with the whole of their virtuons ooontrjiraen, would fill at least nine tenths of all these places. If this part of the subject were to undergo a fii^ discussion it would naturally be asked. Who are the chief justices of the province ? Who the attorney-general ? Who the solicitor-general? Who judge-' tdvooate P Who presideot of the two coundlt Legislative and Executive Who compose the H 130 MINUTBS 07 EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE SI m is the majority of the iqeml^era of these councils? Who arc the sheriffs? Are they French Mr. Canadians ?Oh no ! they are a conquered people, and French, and not fit to be truste(j. mUuttnParker. American loyalists and others must therefore have almost the exclusive preference of all ''~ J * laaa^P^**^®' of honour and profit. Lower Canada now abounds with young Prench Canadian ""* ' subjects of brilliant talents, cultivated by the best education ; and who, from their respecta- bility and influence are qualified to tiU eyery situation in the province with credit aud h -r»- iiittif DID you sign a petition lately presented to the House of Commons froip the Canadian merchants residing in London ? — 'No, I did not ; it is a very improper one, in my opinion. Why do you think so ? — To unite 1,500 miles of country in pne province wouH be the most inconvenient' thing tliat could be ; (^nd it i^ a most insqlting measure to ihe French Canadians ; the object of it appeal's to me to be only to overpower them in the House of Representatives, and it would not be attained by that means. In Upper Canada it is said that there are very able republican members, and if they sent them dpwi) to Lower Canada as representatives, they would be very apt to republicani^e the French members, who are not republicans, but loyal, and in m^ opinion, even ultra royal in their present sentiments and wieVes. Do you know any Canadian merchants p^w resident in London who encertain the same opinion upon that point as yourself? — Perhaps nqt- Howloqgis it since you have been in Canada ? — Not since 181 1. You. have described what you call the English population, by which it is presumed jon moan the population from Great Britain, as being unsettled and transitory ? — Not unset- tled ; but the French Canadians do not look upon them as settled ; the educated part of their own population, being born in Canada, remain there ; tlie English part of the luhabi- tants remain there or not, according to circumstance^. Acoc. 'ding to what circumstances are the^ there ?— They are there for the purposes of trade. Are they in the habit of investing their money there in purchasing lands? — Some f«w |iave done so. Can you state why it is that only ft few are disposed to do so ? — There are not manj ......... ^^^ Ij ON Tim CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA f3T that have mon«y to invest ; th^ro are but Few of them thnt make monev. I believe thai j^j^^ since I vi'entout in 1780 there are not half a dozen houses in Montreal and Quebec that WiU'tam Porhmf were in existence at that time. ; a ^ Do you believe that in the English population there is an indisposition to acquire pro- 91 ^une 1&28. perty and to settle in Canada 't — I cannot speak to that ; I think tiiat if they niaae money ttiev would be more inclined, perh '^s, to return to Europe. to what circumstance do you attributvi that? — That if they had fortunes they vould (DJoy them better in Enf|;lana than in America. Canada is a very cold countri, there is . _ ouehalfof the year that they are locked up with ice. Is there.an y other reason than the climate .vhicti renders the persons emifrrating from this country indisposed to ar^iuire property in Lower Canada ? — They would like to have the confidence of the Freuch Canadians ; thev would like to represent tl'era in the Lcgis.- •: Uture; and the French Canadians have not that confidence in them, from the circura- >\ itances I have mentioned, that they have in their own countrymen, who are numerous and (vell-educated men. Do the English settlers dislike the state of the law and tenure of property in Canada ?-r ^ \ ' > Perhaps they would like some other tenure better ; I do not know ; some of them, I supr pose, would prefer other tenures. Hare you ever held landed property in Canada?^! have land that has come to me in payment of debts. FromycuriuMjuaintancenith Lower Canada, do you think that if tl;e minds of t'^e in« habitants of that province were quieted as to any apprehension of uniting them ,M'itli the • Upper Province, and if the present constitution was administered in a conciliatory matt*' ner, that that would be sufficient to make things go on smoothly ?— Yes; I think it would, unless there was an invasion on the part of their neigl hours. But they have been ' so much teased and tormented for tiie last 20 years that it must sliake their confidence iu their con- ititution; and I question almost if even such palliations would be sufficient, li would trat^- .. quiltze while there is peasd w ith America, but it would require the exertions of every niau ; ^ • ia the country, in co-operation with any ibrce that this country might furnish, to ne^end tbe colonies against the Americans. I do not think that 50,000 British troops would keep the two Canadas for two campaigns. * You mean witlout tlie hearty co-operation of the French Canadians ? — Yes ; with their , co-operation 10,000 men would be quite sufficient to drive out the Americans. What system of government towards the Canadians is it that you would recommend ? — I would {five the whole civil government of the four British North American colonies, Upper Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, to the inhabitants , under suc!i vctus ai)a restrictions as* might be deemed proper with colonies, the fewer, lio» ever, and more li- beral these were, the oetter, and keep them as militarv and commercial stations, and give them all the privileges that they see their neighbours of the United States eiijoy, and undcp which system t'ley are so happy and prosperous. Do you think it desirable to leave the Lower Province of Canada to the management Rnd direction of the French Canadians ? — Certainly ; they are in ray opinion the best sub? jects that this country has in any part of the world. Supposing that there exists on the part of persons emigrating from England any dislike of French institutions, would you think it desirable to take such steps as would remove the grounds of objection taken by the English, by letting them have in such parts of the country as they are disposed to settle English, laws and English institutions ? — Not in Lower Canada ; you could not have separate institutions in Lower Canada ; tlie Englisli are confined chiefly to the towns of Montreal, Quebec, and Three Rivers. Are you aware that tlie land granted to the English, is granted upon a tenure similar tq ^ thaton which land is granted in England? — In Lower Canada I think it ought not to be «o; it is contrary to tneir capitulation, by vthicb, I understand, they were to enjoy their Uhs as to landed and fixed property. Do you also think that it would be contrary to good policy ?— I think it would be con? trary to good policy to infringe in the least the rights tncy capitulated for. Do you think that the unsettled lands that now exist in Lower Canada should be left to the dceceudauts of the Frencli Canadians to occupy them as tli^y may hereafter be able to do ■:«i" , t^! \ ■V-l ': '>' • i' fdS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFOBE SELECT COMMITTEfe J, do ; or that it would be wise to adopt soch institations as would enoouraffe the seitlcment William ParkerP^ individimls from tliis side of the water ? — I would encourage the French Canadians, they / [are the only people you can depend upon; the population of the other provinces is of a ^1 June 1888. mixed character (a great many loyal, brave and good men, no doubt, amongst them) ; the French Canadians are united in their origin (of which they are justly pron^ in religion, in manner8,andin virtue ; they haveacharacter to support,and they have always nobly support- ed it; whilst they hereunder the French government, they were the bravest subjects that France had ;and with one sixth of their present numberthey gave the greatest opposition to the Britisli army that tiiey met with at toe conquest in Canada. I am persuaded ir tlie French Canadians l>ad been as numerous at that time as they are now, we would not have wrested Canada from France, and if such had iiieen.the result, we would not now have the youthAil, powerful and federative North American republic encroaching on us as they do at present. The Fxench Canadians are reproached for not Anglefjring themselves : Are the inliabi- tants of Jersey and Guernsey worse British subjects for having preserved their language, manners and "Norman laws ? or are they so reproached ? — and yet I will boldly assert that Xower Canada, and other North American colouies, are of ten thousand times more vital importance to this empire than these idands are of. I considp" them more than the right arm of the British Empire. I am convinced that if the Fre: Canadians were double their present number, they would set all the union of America at defiance ; they are the best subjects this country have. ^ ^ For that reason you think it would be wise to let them have an opportunity of extend- ing their numbers and their institutions over the whole of theLower Province '/—Certainly ; you have no other chance of keeping your North American colonies but by that means ; if you do not do it, you lose them as sure as ever you have an invasion on the part of Ame- rica, and what then ? — With the Ameriean repubhc one and indivisible from the Gulph k Mexico to Hudson's Bay, how would this empire be circumstanced in regard of ships, co- ,y . lonies, and commerce ? This (in my humble opinion) most important and indeed most Tital question deserves the most serious consideration of the British Legislature : oace the Korth American Colonies lost, they are for ever. ON TttE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 9H 'if. li MartiSf 24^1 die Junii, 1828. J. Stfphtn, Jt. Eaqulry. S4 June 1828. James Stepheftf junior, Esq. a^in called in ; and Examined. When yoa were last before the Committee, some questions were put to you with ret* peetto the rents of the clergy reserves, bare you been able to ascertain what is the gros^ MBOunt of the rent actually received, and what are the net receijits ? — I have with me to account, which I believe will answer that question with sufficient accuracy. In the prorince of Lower Canada the total qiumtity of Crown reserves is 488,645 acres, of idiich where are in lease for 1 1 ye»rs, 38,366aGre8. The terms of the leases are, that upon I lot of 800 acres eight bushels of wheat, or 25s. jper annum, are to be paid for the first seven years, 16 bushels of wheat, or 508, per annum for the next seven , years, and 24 bwhels of wheat - or 758. per annum for the hist seven years. The nominal revenue of these Crowfi resfrves, upon the average 'bf several years is 830L ; and the achial receipt ii less than 301. per annum. The total quantity of clei^y reserves is 488,594 acres, of which 75,639 acres are granted in lease upon the same terms as tl:e Crown reserves. The nomma/rmt of the clergy reserves is 9301. per annum, and the actual recei)>/, . upon tl|0 iTerage of the last three years, is 501. per annum. These statements are made on the authority of a letter addressed by Mr. Cochran (the private secretary of Lord IJalhousie) toMr. Wilmot Horton, of the 20th March 1826. It is the latest account on the subject in the Colonial Office. Can you account for the great difference between the nominal rent and the net receipt 2 —It is'accuuiftedfor by the great difficulty of collecting the rents, and by the tenants absconding. The resident clergy act as local agents in the collection of tl>e rents. It appears that the sum of 1751. has been deducted for the expenses of management, and mt at the date of Mr. Cochran's letter there was in the hands of the receiver-general a sum of 2501., the gross produce of the whole revenue of this estate. The Committee are informed that an arrangement was made with the Canada Company for disposing of a considerable portion of the clergy reserves, and that that arrangement has practicaUy failed ; is there any other wrangement in operation to dispone of a portion of the clergy reserves, excepting tliat which you have informed the Committee of, which exists nuder the power which the Clergy Corporation possess of leasing a portion of them t - Tile statute 7tn and 8th Geo. IV, c. 62, authorizes tlie sa]e of one fourth of the clergy reserves, provided that in no one year more than 100,000 acres be sold. What persons are directed to carry that sale into effect ?r— They are to be sold by the Governor, acting under instructions issued by Hits Majesty, through the Secretary of State. Mr. Peter Robinson is appointed m Upper Canada as the Agent to car- rv this power of sale into effect. 1 believe, but am not certain, that in Lower Canada Mr. Felton has tlie same appointment. The proceed^ of the sales are to be invest- ed in the ptiblic funds of this country, and tlie interest arising from the investment, after defraying the expenses of the sale, is to be applied to the improvement of the unsold land, or for the purposes for which the land itselt was originally reserved. Have they the power of selling, subject to lea«e, any portion of those lands that hav« been leased ? — They will, I understand, sell wild land only. It has been suggested to the Committee that it might be desirable to invest the Eccle> (iastical Corporation with a power of letting leases for a much larger term than 21 years, «Ten for the term of 100 years ; if they were invested with such a power would it not con- flict with tlie power of sale granted to the Governor under the Act you have alluded to ? —The power of granting long leases would of course baye a tendency to withdraw from the agent appointed by Government some of the property which is now at his disposal. But I do not apprehend that there is any probability that, except in a few peculiar caa^ the leases wonla be accepted. Kvcn of as long a duration as that alluded to ?~No ; not if they were granted for 1,000 'iff T' w : !l. \ i '!•' ! i.. ' *'ih iw MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMltTEK .til I '-i,l:l ; yeare ; the duration of the interest would indeed be virtually unlimited, yet a leasoliolJ J. Stfphetu^r. tenure is always of less value tlian a freefiold, because the tenant is subject to forfeiturog Ksq nire. j-^,,. (jreaches of covenant. It is unpleasant also to (ttaod to another person in the relation ■^ ^ P of tenant, because duriujf the tel-ra the landlord has many rijfhts over tlic j.ioptMty *"* •*""" **'*'*• which are burdensome and vexatious, In the Canadas freehold is to be obtained so readily that, cateris paribus, no one will accept a lease however long. I apprehend also that the Cliurch Corporation have already granted in lease those nortions of their hiuds which itre the most desirable. The choice lots have been culled already. Is the quantity which the Government ai-e empowered to sell, under the Act alluded to as great as' tlie state of the market would enable them to sell ? — I of course hate no SersQual knowledge of the state of the market, but what I have been able to learn, rem era me utterly incredulous that there is an annutU demand for 100,000 acres of laiid iu either of the prorinces. Yon ma^ of course tsrcate a demaod by lowering the price, but there is no effective demand for it. The Committee are informed that the distanbution of the clei^y reserves is extremely inconvenient, as far as it affects other land occupied by independent settlers; has it ever been considered worth while to make an exchange of !th«» land, and to give to the clei^ a large mass of land in any particular spot, and to dispose of the particular portions now allotted as clergy reserves P"— A*power of exchange is contained in the statute 7 & 8 Geo. IV. c. 62. Do you know whether any thin^ nas been done under that power ?— I think not. Dtfes any tiling occuf to you wluch would improve the situation in which the clci^y re serves now stand, or may be placed by the existing laws? — Nothing; I apprehend the only wise course of proceeding is to get rid .of them altogether^ Do tlie existing la«'s contain such powers as would enable the Government to get rid df them as speedily and as advantageously as possible? — My oM'n opinion is that the re* > servation of wild lands is predsely the most inconvenient provision , for a clerical body in ' > Canada that ever was imagined, and that both the clergy and the colonists at large would be benefited by disposing of them entirely, and at once, and by substituting sonic other mode of provision. Do yon recollect to what extent that Act gives a power of exchange ?-^The powei* , " is gf fen without any restriction as to quantity. How would you propose otherwise to provide for the clergy? — I would provide for them by granting wild lands subject to small quit-rents. Those rents t would not actuallT levy for a considerable length of time. I would allow the parties ample leisure to culti- vate their lands, and to invest capital upon them< When this was effected you would have an adequate security for the punctual payment of the quit-rents. Ten or perhaps 20 years might first elapse, but at the expiration of that time the qu't-^ronts so reserved would be 8uffi of Canada afterwards advised the Crow A to graut to the Canada Company a block of laud on Lake Huron, not at 3s. Gd. an acre, the price at which the clergy reserves had been "valued, but at 28. 9d. an acre, and of this 2s. 9d. a large part was to be returned to ths ieompany on their effecting certain improvements on the territory. Is not that less valuable as being in a large block ? — I apprehend it is more valnable, , because the company w^ill have the entire and undivided benefit of every shilling they iexpend upon it. In improving the vicinity they will be improving their own property. In improving detached lots the oenefit would in prrt have accrued to their neighbours. 1 should observe also, that only the worst parts of the clergy reserves were comprised in the Talnati to the clerjfy a ar portions now i Statute 7 & 8 think not. ch the clergy re* I apprehend the ment to get rid »n is that tlie re< clerical body in 1^9 at large would tin^ sonio other e ?-^The powei* mid provide for aid notactuallr leisnre to culti- feted yoa would en or perhaps 20 I reserved would old require. 1 lain by a cler«:y 'er yield any re- tbject of discoo' air sale of their t price of land ? Y of the subject, to the fact, that of the clergt of a block of land erves had been returned to th« I more valnable, ry shilling they ^n property. In neighbours. I e comprised in Hm ' J '' »V4' 0\ THE CIVIL GOVEttNMENT OF CANADA HI Has any ether mode of provitlin;j for the cler^ been under consideration besides that J- Sirphen, jun of reserving quit-routs oil the c!t!rjf>' rcsorves ? — I apprehend not; I have heard of none. Are you aware what portion of the clergy rcsf rvw have beeu actually sold under the '^ ' provisions of the late Ai-t of Parliament ?— There is as yet no report of any sale. "* What, in your opiuiou, \vould be the law which in Lower Canada would regulate the inheritance of laud held in free aud cuur.nou soccage ; if an owner of 8H(;h lauu «lied with- out a will, leaving children, how would it be distributed among them •* — The qut'Htion, I presume, refers to the state of biw as it stood before the enactment of the Canada Tenures Act, G (Jeo. IV. c. 59. T. e luw sinco tl.at statute is quite clear. My opinion in, thai before the enactment of tlie Canada Tenures Act, lauds held iu free and common 80C4.!aj|^« in Lower Canada would have descended in tlio same manner, and according to the same rules, as seigneuries holden of the Crown. The grounds of that- opinion are, that tho words "free aud common soccage," in their proper and legal sense, are always used in contradistinction to the ancient tenures in chiviury. The essential quality of a free and common soccage tenure is, that the services to be rendered by the tenant are detinite and certain. In tenures in chivalry they were fluctuating', and dependel on many accidental events. Such is tlie ciise at this day with t.ie feudal tenures subsisting in Lower Ca- nada. Therefore the provision in the statute of 1701, thiit lands in Lower Canada might be granted in free and conmion soccage to those who should desii e it, meant, as I conceive, ouly that the lands should be holden, not upon those var iug services which the ancient feudal tenures of tlie province would have imposed upon the tenants, but by services fixed and certain. The policy of this enactment was obviously to promote cultivation and im- provements, and to relieve the aufriculturist. What is essential to that «nd is enacted, and nothing more. The rule of law established by the Act of 1774, that in all matters of civil right resort should be had to the laws of Canada, was invaded so far, and only so far, as was necessary for giving effect to this general policy. The departure from the an- cient code was precisely co-extensive with, and limitea by, the motives which required it. You are probably awarp that subsequent to the enactment of tlat law the courts of justice .in Canada, and the people in Canada, both seem to have concurred that the old French law should be applicable, in all its parts, to those lands that had been granted in free aud common soccjige, aud those lands i ave therefore descended from that time to the present according to the principles of the old French laa»!*, by con> reyance or descent, according to the Imvt of England. B)it the statute does not contain any retrospective language. I suppose t e Legislature to have meant to legislate oul_\ for the future, leaving' the pa.st to be regulated by judicial decisions. T' en with that view you do not think it would be desirable to pass an Act to quiet titles, and to confer on those individuals that have acquired property under the French forms an undoubted ri^. t ? — It would first be necessary to ascertain with great exactness to vhat extent the grievance really exists. It woiJd scarcely be wise to pass an Act of ParUment to provide for an insulated case or two. At present your statute pievents t' e Canadian Assemblv from legislating' on the subject. I think it would be far better to impart the necessary powers to them. T. ev are incomparably more competent to pro* ride lor the real exigences of the case t at Parliament can be. If an Act were passed for t e single pui'pos^ of erecting a legislative body properly constituted, and fairly represent- ing t e inhabitants, I would expunge from tho Statute-book every single enactment res* pecting the inttirnal concerns of ti.e province, and leuve them to moke lav • for them- aelves. Do fou know what difficulties have prsvented the exchange of land from the French tenure to t:>e Englis <, under the powers contained in the Canada Tenures Act ?— The Cana4a Trade Act was defoctlTe, inauuucb aa it did not impose upon the ■«igiieiir obtaining a oommutatioa Lw|iiiiv. una Itf'iS. ilf. Ml t* S .1 'if* '\ \k'fi^ li'-'riVlSifJ i I4t MINUTES OF iiVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J Stephen, jun. Ktqiiiie. commutatiou the obligiition of making a corresponding commutation in farom* of hit I " — — ^ censitaire. That defect was supplied by the Canada Tenure Act. ai JuiiH 1828. Has ally land been emancipated under the powers ofthose two Acts ? — I apprehend not. Do you know what has prevented them?— As far as J am informed, the dilficulty has . arisen from the terms wliich the Governor in Council required from the oidy applicant for a commutation, and w.'iich t' at gentleman t'ouj^ht too high. Is tlicre, iu fact, a value attached to the rig'.;t of the Government, the extinction of ' ' which would make tiovernment practicallyalosor?— I apprehend Ihiit the value is con- t^derable ; but the ri|rhts of the Crown are not to be estimated on thu same principles as those of a nrivate person. The Cro^n ^olds this prop«'rty iu trust for the public ; and as the public interest wouhl greatly be promoted by tliese commutations, I tliink tliat tlio Crown would act wisely in making a large immedi:ite pecuniary sacrifice in order to pro- -'' - raote them. To tempt others to follow the example, I would, if necessary, give the earli. est applicants a decided advantage. If I could not effect a sale of these rights of the Crown, I would even surrender them gratuitously, on condition that the seigneurs should emancipate their ceusitaires on tlie t<.>rniK of the statute. I am persuaded that before lon^ V the revenue would be bnnetited by such a concession. You would increase the taxation, by increasing the value of all taxable property. Would any inconvenience, in your opinion, arise from the circumstance of one mass N of land being held iu one tenure, and anot ter mass of contiguous Liud being held on a tenure totally d liferent ? — The single circumstance of the difference of tenures would not, I tiiink, produce any material inconvenience. Iu c'ciy part of this country are to be found contiguous tracts of land held on different tenures, and descending according to dif- ferent rules. Some are free old, of ors copyhold, ot ers are held in gavelkind, or in borough Englis'i. An universal identity of tenure would of course be more couvenient ; l»ut tlie diflicultics wliic'i arise from the var.oty ai'e not found in the administration of .' justice to be very formidable. Still, however, I s' ould apprehend that serious impediments to the right execution of the law nould ai'ise iu a country like Canada, when to the dif- fereuues of tenure )ou superadd all the consequent varieties between the modes of con- Teyanciug, and between the rules of law applying to a French fief and an English freehold. If you are right in saying tliat the French law is properly applied to the free and com- • mon soccago lands after they are once granted, does any inconvenience afterwards arise with respect to descents ? Tiie question is without reference to tlie Declaratory Act?— Supposing the Canada Tenures Act uot to have been passed, and the law to revert to • the state-in which I suppose it to have stood before tlie enactment of that statute, I do not understand wiat dimculty on the subject of descents could, on t'lat hypothesis, be pro- posed for consideration. The French la'.v of descents, wietlier conveaicBt or otherwise, is iit least iutelligiblc and well knovvu. Supposing, ou the otiier nand, that the English law respecting real property, in all its strictness, has been induced upon the soccage lands in • Canada by tlie Tenures Act, the difficulties will, I apprehend, be found quite insupera- ble unless some modification of our English rules be made. I suppose that the courts ia ' (Canada would be somewhat perplexed if they had to try a real action, or to apply t':c law t. .; (>f contingent remainders to the lauds in these townships. There is no end to the illustra- - ' tions. What would they make, for example, of a term of years in trust, to attend the . inlieritanco. •^^ Wouldit be necessaiy, if the English tenure of land is established, to adopt the mode of conveyance in practice iu England ; would it uot be possible to adopt a more simple fornij w-^ . one resembling that whicli esists iu Upper Canada, or in the United States ?— I think t ere w ould be no insuperable difficulty in superseding altogether the English la", of con- veyancing, and Iforrowing the simple foiTUS of the Roman law. Our English forms arc jMculiarly iuitppropriate to t' e circumstances of a colony, and most of all to those of a newly settled colony. Wherever English colonists have been unfortunate enough to find any of the continental codes in force respecting the conveyance of land, tliey have clung to it withjjreat eagerness, and have congratulated themselves iu their deliverance from a hea>y burthen. This is especially the case with the Dutch law in Demerara, the Spanish 'u\ Triuidad, aud the French in St. Lucii^ Are you acquainted witli that paj^icitlia^^nure of the French law called the Franc loimel with it as to give any useful information about it. Can Aleu ^-^\ am not so well acqus ON THB CIVIL OOVBRNMENT OF CANADA. rom' of hi» Can yon sny whether you consider it more burthensome to the proprietor than the English temire of free and common soccage ?— I apprehend it has the essential qualities of*^* Slej>hen, ian. the free ana common sooaag^e tenure ; certainly, ot services. * '* "' _ '^' Do yon consider the French system of tenure in Lower Canada as burthensome to theg^ j^^^ 1888.^ proprietor or not ? — That it is burthensome in one sense of the expression is plain enough, inagmuch as the tenant O'^es various dues to the lord. Of counte there can be no cjues- - . ^ ■, tion as to the rclutive freedom of a holder of land who is exempt from all such obli^tions. A» a question of general and public j^ood, I could never bring' myself to doubt that it were better that aU lands in Canada should be holden in free and common socci^, than in fief and rdture. In those colonies where the Dutch law and different foreign laws exist, do. they exist concurrently with English law?— No ; all lands in Trinidad are holden under Spanish latv ; and in Demerara and the Cape under Dutch law. This applies even to lands grant* ed by the King of England. Is there any colony in which the same conrts decide upon questions of English form, and upon questions as to the form of any other country ? — I do not think there is any colonj in wliich the English law exists concurrently with a foreign law. Each form may come into question in their courts incidentally and indirectly, but never as an established part of their judicial system. Is it your opinion that upon all those questions, complicated as they are n-ith regard tothe temire and transmission of property, the Colonial Legislature, with the advantages of their local knowledge, arc much more competent to deci(t<) than the British Legisla* tnre ? — I cannot suppose any man at all conversant with the subject liesitating respecting the answer to that question. Except there be a well-founded distrust of the disposition of the Colonial Legislature to do rignt, no plausible teason can, I think, be suggested for taking this Hork out of their hands. They are incomparably better qualified for it than pa can be. What should we tliink of the Canadian Assembly passing acts for the im- provement of the law of real property and conveyancing in this couutry I Yet I suppose they understand our system of tenures at least as well as we do theirs. Then the remedy which you think ought to be applied to this state of things is rather some change in ti.e Local Legislature than any change in the law upon that particular subject V — Yes ; establish a proper legislature, and you may safely repeal every Act in TOur Statute Book respecting the internal concerns of Canada. Have yon any doubt that if the regulation of the tenure of land was left to the Colo- nial Legislature t'ey would entirely get rid of the English tenure ? — That depends upon the constitution of the Local Legislature. If you leave the Assembly in its present form, the French members, if left to themselves, would infallibly ^et rid of the English temire. If the lands now granted in free and common soccage continued to be held on that tenure, and sulyect to the English law of descent, is tliere any thing which makes it ne- cessary on that account to adopt the inconvenient forms of English conveyancing ? — As I have alread said, I think there would be no formidable difficulty in superseding the Enfflish method by forms borrowed from the French, or any other foreign code. In k'jislating for these two countries you have a tabula rasa before you, and are free from tlie many difficulties which impede such improvements in an old settled country : like this. Do not you conceive that as the law stands at present the Provincial Legislatures have the power of modifying even t ha English law, as applicable to free and common soccage lanos ? — I should have said so, but for the last Act of Parliament which, while it autho- rizes the adaptation of the law to the free and common soccage tenures, prohibits any mo- llification which would abrogate their tenures altofrether. Have jou any reason to believe that persons of English origin are deterred from settling in Lower Canada bj the prevalence of the French law, with which they are not acquaint- ed ? — I have reason to believe it, because I have heard the statement made by many ' persons intimately acquainted with the country. Is it not necessary, in your opinion, if it is thought desimble to introduce persons of English descent to settle in Lower Canada, to establish, w Ith reference to real property, though not with reference to personal property, some law with respect to the possession * of 'U> ^■i ?-■ ,, i ."»i '£ ■t '.. 9U MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I '. ", if of that property, so far similar to tlie law of England nn to get rid of the inconvenience /. SlejthfH,2»n.they complain of? — I apprehend that so long as the law rcspeoting notarial rrgistrioN, aud Ekq>4ire. the law respecting the legal consequences of marriage on tl»e property of the parties, re- '■"' -—^' "yjoaius unaitercd, the English will be deterred from settling in the country. 1 am aware of K4 Jiiof, 18S28. no other rnleof lawon the subject of civil rights which would deter them. Do vou think that persons with Englis i ideas and habits prefer t' e mode of distributin|f land ahcr their death equally among tceir children, and t at tl>ey have no opinion in favour oftheriglt of primogeniture? — In new countries, wl ere there is no aristocracy of birth and where the opinions or prejudices w! icit flow from t' at institution are scarcely known, the law of primogeniture of conrNC Ims a very weak hold on public opinion. May not those consequences of marriage that you I ave alluded to be barred by marrid^e settlement ? — They may be barred by an ante-nuptial contract; but the settlers are gpiie- rallv ignorant persons, who marry nith very little attenliou to tt.e consequences of the contract upon their present or future property. / Supposing a person with considerable property, real and pcrsonnl, goes to Canada, be- comes domiciled there, makes a marriage, and settles his property, real and personal, and afterwards comes back to England, do 3'ou know Mhat inqouvvnienccs, if any, would follow from that arrang'ement ? — Of course ti e effect of t,.e settlement, as it respects real property, will always depend upon the lex locirei silCB. ■ Might not a settlement of that description be as valid and beneficial to him after lii« change of place from Canada to England, as if it I ad been made under the English law V— ^ A man resident in Caiinda may, in Canada, make a marriage settlement, which upon his return to England shall, in England, be just as effective as though it had been executed in the city of London. Supposing a person marries in England, and gees to Canada, having made no marriage ; settlement, acquires property in Canada, and dies t' ere, by wiatlaw is his property in Canada to be adniinistered ? — It would depend, I think, upon the place of his settled ' ' domicile at the time of lis death. Supposing he becomes domiciled in Canada ? — If ho becomes a settled inlmbitant of Ca- nada, and acquires a domicile there, then I suppose that the' consequences of a marriage previously contracted in England without any ante-nuptial contract, must depend upon the law of Canada. I conceive tliis to be t< e general international law of Europe, I should rather say of Chn8tene th«ir familiarity with the French latixui»;,'f?» wlio would easily understand u Freucli law-book, or un oral argument on a question of Ffenih law, ^ Does an F.ngli8h lawyer opening a book of Scotch law understand it at first perusal ?— • He nndcrstands it witli little comparative difliculty, because t!ie derivation of the trch» nical words suggest their probable meaning, and because there iii a general' and prevailing analogy between the Scoti'h law and the law of England. Are not the French and the Scotch laws equally founded upon the Roman law? — I do not pretend to t )e kno" ledge requisite for drawing tliat comparison ; but in general I conv leive t:'at the law of Scotland bos deviated much farther from the original ^touk than the law of old France. If the lands now held in free and common socragc are to continue to bo held on titat footing, and the existing laws reguLitingthat tenure are to continue in operation, would it not be desirable to have separate courts in which the law respecting real property held on te tenure of free and common soccage sliould be administered? — Perhaps that is a merejnuestion of economy. If you can afford the English a separate court, with compe*^ tent English judi^os, it is of cpurse desirable that you sliould do so. It n])nears to ni«, however, that witlioi'-t any additional expense, the object miglit be obtained by a moditi* cation of the piesent system. There are now nine judges, four at Quebec, four at Mon- treal, and one at Three Rivers. This is a very ample establishment for 500,000 persons. The nine might be easily so stationed and selected as to administer Justice to both the races. If a court for the administration of the laws relating to real property, upder the tenure offree and common soccage was estjfblished iu Montreal, might thcit: not be circuit's into the townships, and courts held from time to time in particular districts, in which causes might l»e tried arising out of matters connected with property held on that t*nure ? — There ma\ be conclusive objections to ti at scheme arising from localities, of which I know nothing. I can perceive no technical objection, or at least none which could not be readily reir.oved. When it is considered that the French law in Canada is applicable to all personal con- tracts and all personal property, could it be worth the expense to have any courts estab- lished for the administration of t!:ose few cases in which the law of England ns applicable to real property might apply ? — The more closely \ ou can bring the administration of justice home to the doors of the people the better. A man living in the tovuNhips ba^ much to do, and »' ould have a fo; midable journey to take for the redregs of i is grievniices, or to give his evidence, if the only courts weye c$ts of the courts, ar.d the difficulty of approaching them, would be a serious evil to the intnlitants of t.c town- ships. As the communications improve, tliat evil will be diminished ; but till then it must be felt very sensibly. Mnstnot the instances be extremely few in wliich it would be necessary to administer the English law with regard to real property, if a state of things existed in which the French law was applicable to all lands m free and coiiimon soccage after the tirst grant of tie lands? — If that sta;c of things did exist, I cannot perceive how any question upon the English law could ai-ise for decision. Thfn t4 ^un« l*^*. 1.'! > * 5 \ 1 <■ \i i' ^ It •:.■. I i< Si 5 (4 f4C MINUTES OF EVlDEyrE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. Stefthf K»qu n,jun irv. S4 Junr, 1688. i* W : i Then j'onr opinion ip, upon tlip whole, with rc«pfl(^t to tliftt suhj<»ct, that either an on- acfnuMit phuinfr tho Inw upon tlw footinjy upon "i ic.'i yon Niippose it to have 8to(MI>efnre ,thttt Act, or A ilcdiiration of tht' law upon thcsul.jert, wouhi he hcnefi<'iHl ? — My opinion 1.,, t' ut theouly rfiisoiiable courHoof prooeeflin,f is to create a legislative body in h'! ich you can repose contiHence ; and hnvinpf done no, to leave them to make such lauN as thev may t' ink iipressnry. It is vaiiii to attempt to estahlish la^H of minute detail oii HuhjedHof this nature by acts made on one side of the Atlantic which arc to operate on the otlier Would it not be necessary to infuRe intot'e Representative Assembly n larger portion of persons representing the interests of the townnhips, in order to secure the enactment of such laws ns tliey desire V^My opinion is that you ra accuracy. Whenever t'i ere is a county in that predicam'ent it is thrown into the next least populous county of the district, and votes with it. Thus if there is a county possessing only 900 inbRbitants, those persons vi ould vote as freeholders of the least populous county in the district containing above 1 ,000. Can you state whether that s\ stem is round to operate well, or whether it affords a 8ub< ject-matter of complaint ? — As far as my knowledge extends, no party in the province, (and parties there are in violent opposition to each other), has ever complained of it Do you liappen to know, whether, in the United States, any similar system exists ? — I believe, but am not certain, that it exists in the States of Vermont and New York. Is it within your knowledge that t'-e Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada at one time passed a bill, t'le object of whi«'h was to provide for the increase of that Assembly ? Yes. That bill stopped in the L"'^ppcr House ? — It was rejected by the Council. Do 4\ FEE ithor an cn- Kt()(M hpfore My opinion dy in w! ich iich liiWfl as to detail oil operate on argor portion enactment of the coustitu- cairyin;; the ion on M'liicb sentatives re- tliat it in ini- )bviou8 result I) and EnjrllHh tpiilation, llic Id have more If indeed the the 8aj;a<;ious, 08 to produue .dos, does not re reprcsmta- rovernment to le state. The nbtst by that il concetisions, onflict between desirable for ?— Certainly the purpose anada the Re- rns ; and each 00 persons, it jere is no fur- counties ?— A lich have not wer that ques- drovrn into the re is a county of the least affords a sub< the province, nedofit sm exists ?— I York, anada at one it Assembly ? Do ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 847 D« you know for what reason it was rqject^il ? — It in Rtated to have been rejected upon j, stmtun jun. the (iTOund tluit it wim improperly fruuuvl. The imputed impropriety, as I am informed, Etquire. vfu, tiiat instead of diniiuiHhin^ the iuf«iuulit^ between the French and the EngUsli in-r ^— —% tercsts in tlie Assembly, it tended tu iniTfjisc it in favour of the French. t4 Juns isutt. If in adding to the uiiniber in the Legislative Assembly in Lower Canada the principle of popttlution is aloiio looked to, must it nut noccssiirily J'uUow that tlie iutluenco of th« French Canadians will be constantly increased 'i — Suppo-^ing the French nice to increase ^ -"~ — " with the same r.inidity as tlie En;,msh, there will ulwuyH bo a nfreat propoii'Icrance of fhe \ French interest if population be made t>>e single basis of the rcprescutatioit, because at the present time the Frepcii are about 400.1)00, and tlie Kuglisli cannot exceed 80,000. Do you believe t'lat any Nolieme of representation can be adopted which shall not give itfreat preponderance tu the French interest ? — I can suppose a scheme of representation which at some remote period would dupiivo tiic French ot that preponderauce. The ter- ritory occupied by the English is more extensive, and is capable uf sustaining more inlia- bitaats than the territory occupied by the French. If then, in the scheuie of representa- tioa, you have regard to the extent of territory as m ell as to the extent of population, a day will at length arrive when the French and ILnglish members will be equally balanced. What are the instances that occur to you in which the Frencli population of ( 'unada have iaterests distinct from those of the Eiigfisli population ? — I conceive that their divisions do cotoriginate in any real contrariety nr incu;upatibiiity of interests. Lar^i^e bodies of menare noldoin much moved by a mere computation uf intercst,and still inure seldom have any clear vienrof what their interact really is. The contest is not upon any questions of political arithmetic ; it has ranch deeper roots ; it grows out of national prejudices, and is a matter of pride, passion and sentiment. The interesti: of tlie two rnc4!8, rightly understood, are the same ; but they feel too narralv to understand those interests correctly. Do you know, of \ our own knowledge, that the la^v which was proposed for altering the representation would have had the effect of diminishing the English interest in tlie Assem- bly V— I know it only from the iufortuation of other persons. Areyouawiire what number would have been returned in the English interest under the new law, and what number is returned under the present law ? — The calculation is, tlint there would be nine new French, and two English representative!!>, M'hich, being added tu the existing state of things, would make about fiftj-tnree French to about seven or eight Euglish. Would not that have been rather more than the existing proportion of English? — The proportions fluctuate so continually that you cannot coiujiute theiu with any exactness. , Mea are occasionally changing their parties ; and one movement of that kind will in this ase largely affect the population. Uo you think it would be desirable to apply the system acted upon in Upper Canada in aay alteration that may take place in Lower Canaila, in the election of the Ilepresentative Assembly ? — If I may express my own opinion as so w!iat alteration shuuld oe made, I ^ • * ihoald say that the two Canadas ought to oe re-united. If that plan be rejected, the next best raeusure would, I think, be the introduction of the Upper Canada law. V^liat steps ought to be token in order to carry tlie Upper Canada law into effect ; in , ' thiit nav could it best be ascertained into wiiat portions Lower Canada ought to be diyid- I (d ?— Of course it can only be ascertained by persons resident there ; and there must be a I new Act of Parliament. Mast it be passed by the English Parliament ? — Yes ; because the existing division of the country, »ith a view to representation, depends upon the proclamation issued under tlie authority of the English statute ; and because this is au innovation which the existing I Assembly will not voluutari y introduce. Do you consider the inconvenience arising from having two systems of descent of real I property in one province a sufficient ground to ovei turn the system of legislatm'e of the pvince, for the purpose of removiag that inconvenience ?— -To the question proposed in that abstract form I s'.iould answer no. If that were the single iucouveuieuce, I would I not alter the legislative system in order to remedy it. I Was it not upon that gi'ound principally that you rested your wish to have the legislative |i stem altered r — My reasons for wishing to have the legislative system of Canada altered |»ri many, but chiefly this : I£ you persevere jn the present system, I fear it is but too evi- |ri«ty wcro I to Hiiy[;(t'st ac;icliiuj^ the loyalty of His M.ijeHty'MHnhjectN in the ('ui4U.U recently inanifoMted intluMe nrovinccN. I Npeal< only of what in fntnre an<| probable. Consider then what ist esitnu ion of the Upper IVovince, and of tlie Kii;,'iish part of Lower Canada. The colonists occupy aterritor< iiubedded ainon<; furei|i;;n statex : on the one side are the Americans, on tlie oilier t o Frenc'i Canadians, v|io tlion;;h liviiij; under the same soverei;(ii are esHentially forei;rii to the Upper (Canadians in lan;rua/*>, laws, institutions, habits and prejudices. Nature provided the Hudson to tlie soutli, and the 8t. Lawrence to the iiortli, as the ^rerc cliannels of coniniunicatir(;ial inter- course with I^n;;lish Canada, except on such tenns as the Le^nslatures of New Yorlt aiij Quebec are plesisedto prescribe. Is it reasonable to think that the people of Kn<{lish Ca- nada will permanently acquiesce in this exclusion ? Is it ;;ood policy t(»make tlieni coiiti- niially feel that a union with the <(reat republic. to t' e southward would open to them cI>hii- nels of coinmerciul intercourse, from which your laws have interdicted them ?— Can it b(; supposed that t' ey will always be content to lose the viLst commercial udvantai|;cs w icli the t would derive from their unequalled inland navigation iftheirintercour.se vith the Ocean were unimpeded ? A capitalist in Upper Canada can employ his property only iu aj^ricnlttire. If he engagfesin trade/ it must be either in the United States as an alien, or in Lower ('anada under all the restraints w ich a French Legislature may impose on hiiu. 1 recommend a union, therefore, ;uishcd from tlie aentinifntoi loyalty, can be very stron|flv felt. Ti.e rijfht of rejectin have a dirort interest in maiutaining the connection. I fear that all these I' 1. "ion, and espeiiallr theisCTise of interest, will be jfrcatl. weakened if yon -orsi- ni e.\iUiio great parties, equally balanced aad counterpoised in t>)< Mne aneably. ON Tim CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. UO naditN, U it oyichMit tiiut a union would improve thoir condition ? — I do not approfu-nd that *'" ^Z'***' J""' th« coniniortittl deiipudetioe iH injuriouH to their intrreat ; on t'le contrary, an tin? law of "l^'^** Euj^land now ittaniU, it \h lii^lily a(lvanta;^ou)( to thera. They have privilejfeH in tim En- ^4 j ^ |r|ii«h ni:trketM which other nations have not. What I Huid rather wam, that t ic Eiiiflish po- , i unt lasd. uuUtinn of the Ctinadiware ao Hurrounded hy foreijfn nation* that in fact all coiuuierco' is luterdicted to tl em, except on the mottt inconvenient tenuN. Have tliey not a ip'eat advantage over the Htates of North America by having a free ncccM the trade of Groat Britiiin ? — I think they have. to Does not that more than counterbulance any disadvantage that they are under from tlieir rxcliuiou as coloniea from a free trade with other countries ? — A dry and accurate <;om* potation would, I believe, prove it ; but \furffe bodies of men are not miu,'h governed by culculatious of any kind. You must address tlieir affections or their imagination if you de- tire to move them. or Did yoi> in your answer mean to refer to the inconvenience nliich arises to the Uppi Province, from the circumstance of the Lower Province being interposed l>etween them tod the port of entry ? — From tlio circumstance of ihu Lower Province legislating for the navijipition of the St. liawrencc, and imposing, at its discretion, all the duties payable there, Th« English (Canadians stand towards the Lower Province in a relation not dissimilar to tbat in which they stand to the State of New York. That state legislates for the trade of the Hudson ; the Province of Lower Canada legislates for the trade of the F . La<»reace. Ou either side the outlet is barred by laws which they have no share in making btliere no mode of reconciling that bnt by a union ? — I can imagine none. b there any risk under such a system of tlie party who is not favoured by the Governor looking to foreign aid ? — I assume, as a postulate, that you have a Governor who will have m«||[aauimity and discretion enough to favour neither party, but who will maintain a just, ao equitable, and a benignant mediation between both. Do not you see very great inconvenience in the circumstance of the immense distance of diflerent points of the Canadas from each other, along a line of country extending no !««« than 1,500 miles ; do you not think that that circumstance would present the greatest difficulties to uniting them in one Legislation ? — In the first place there is not a line of inhabited country extending 1,500 miles ; it scarcely reaches 1,000. In tlie next place ti>e CQoutry is intersected by great navigable waters, and the steam-boats would convey the legidlators backwards ana forwards readily enough. But the ditTiculty anticipated probn- blt is, that a Legislature sitting at Montreal or any other central place, would be inconve- nient!) remote from the different parts of tl^c country, and that the members could not bo adequately acquainted with the localities. Now I assume t: at the Legislatiu'e would be dis- posed to delegate a part of its own powers to various local and subordinate authorities, Hud) as quarter sessions, corporate towns, and justices of the peace. It would reserve for lb n interference only the great and more important questions. Just as in this country IVIiament does not make laws for every hundred or parish, but establishes a kind of county aud parochial legislation throughout tite kingdom. Are you not aware that in the United States tlie disposition has constantly been in favour of subdivision rather than in favour of amalgamation ? — The circumstances of the United States and of (>anada are so different, that analogies of this kind must be admitted very cautiously. The motives, whichin my judgmeut should lead to a legislative union her tweeu the Canadas, could not operate on any of the states composing the great American Uoion. Do you not consider, that as the whole English population of the Canadas is about 26,- .000, while the French population is about 400,000, that t!-.e disadvantage would be greater tlian the advantage, in disaffecting so large a proportion of the population as would be disafi'ected by tlie union ? — I hold it as a settled point, that whatever you do, or whatever you decline to do, you must reckon upon a great mass of discontent and uneasiness. The measure I propose would at least conciliate many. If you leave things as they are, I be- lieve that no one will be gratified ; some change seems to me inevitable. Do you not consider uiat part of the discontent and inconveniences tliat have arisen may be attributed rather to the administration thaln to the constitution itself ? — Some part has probably so arisen, but comparatively a very small part, The great source of these con- 19 tr«y«nie« V }' 1 .v^ S \ 850 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE J. ii4 S/ffpAwi, jun.*'®^*'^'*^''*''® diffcence of the two races, combined with the differences between the ter- Esquire. ritories on wliich they are settled. Their national autipathic-s are whetted by many acci> — * , dental contrasts bet • een their respective situations, bad government may exasperate Jne, 1S2R. these evils, but the most perfect government, without a radical change in the system could never cure f.hem. Po you consider ti'at the difference arising between two nations are better healed by bringing t^em face to face in the same Assembly than by keeping them apart V — You can- ,, not avoid bringing il'em face to face in the Asse'^My, for ti;at is the present system. Up- on t!ie plan I propose there «ould, it is true, be tt greater number of opposing faces, but then tiie number so opposed would be in mucti greater equality. Tiiey will learn to res- pect each other's power, and will become comparatively quiet. ' Do you suppose t' at the Act of 1791 is founded uppn false principles? — I do. The Act of 1791 -as, I think, in effect an Act to create two new Kepublics upon the continent of North America. It contiiins no one effectual provision for supporting the monarclilciJ power. Supposing tlie measure you contemplate to take place, do not you think one of i(s effects wo«ld be to render Upper Canada muc!i more physically powerful ? — Yes, I should think it would. V- Would not it also have a tendency to depress the French population of the pronnce who are not commercial men, and people ot different habits ?— I think that the coinpara- live depression of the French, at no very remote period, is inevitable They will sink un- der the weight of the English, or of the Anglo-American influence in these proiincos. Have you had any means of forming an opinion of what ttie sentiments of Upper Canada are upon the subject of the Union r — I apprehend them to be in favour of that scheme. I cannot doubt their concurrence in a measure by which their great object of legislating; for fie Port of Quebec .Tould be secured. There is also this negative proof of tiieir approba- tion of it, that when the scheme of tho Union was agitated the Upper Canadians never concurred in any of the protests nn^ainst it. Do you think it would be desirable for the Gove^-nment of this country to propose that or any other great alteration in the fundamentals of ttie constitution of the Canadas, with- out giving that country full time to express its opinion upoq the subject ?»-Extreme mea- sures of that kind are only to be justified by an extreme and evident necessity. If the extreme necessity could be made out, I would not hesitate to take the extreme measure, It isjustrridijced to that question ; and there are many persons intimately connected with the Canadas who are greatly alarmed as to the consequences of postponiqg this measure, even till the 1829. Do you appreliend no danger iVom giving the French Canadians so extensive an in- ^ ■fluencft over Upper Canada as they must necessarily acquire if the provinces are united ? ! I believe t''e danger will be wholly in the opposite direction. In a Legislature which is to debate in English, to make laws in English, and to proceed according to English parliamen- tary rules, the English influence must necessarily predominate. Besides there is a pecu. liar aptitude in the English character for success in this impedes of controversy. If an alteration was made in the Assembly of Lower Canada, by laying out, for t!ie pur- pose of representation, divisions of the townships, and such portions of the countiy as were / like'y to be settled by the English, do you thmkthat the change thereby effected in the Legislative Assembly of Canada « ould be likely to lead to an unidn, and to diminisli theob- jections made, to it ? — You will never have a voluntart/ union until there is a majority of '^ English to carry the question of Union ; but up to tliat point you must proceed t'lrough ' a series of conflicts which would tear the province in 'pieces. Supposing a union to take place, and that the English interest should become qnite pa- ramount, and the Canadians quite depressed, do you consider that this country wotild have a stronger or weaker hold over the country on that account ? — I can hardly anticipate the possibility of suc'i a total depr'essiou of the French interest as the question supposes. I would Icjfislate from the commencement upon this principle, that the representatives shall be drawu equally from the te Committee any informanon as totlie reasons for wkicli those bills were rejected ?— The bilk that have been rejected, so far as I have any knowledge of t^em, are these. First, various bills of supply were rejected on the ground that the Assembly asserted by them the right of appropriating the whole revenue of the province. Secondly, a bill for enabling the inhabitants of Canada to maintain suits against the Crown was rejected, be- cause as that suit would have been tried before the Governor and Council, the same object could be more readily answered by a petition addressed at once to that body. Thirdly,a bill forregulatingfees of offices was rejected because the Council did not think the offices useless . or the fees improper. Fourthly, bills for establishing corporate bodies for the government of the cities of Montreal and Quebec were rejected as not having been properly fraimcd so IS to promote the interest of those places, but as tending to promote the pnvate advantage of particular individuals. Fiftiily, some bills for improving the administration of justice were rejected undert!ie foUowinof circumstances. In the years 1819, 1821 and 1823, bills for the same purpose were sent h-om the Council to the Assembly and rejected by the Ag- sembly. la 1824 ti.e Assembly sent a bill to the Council, which was lost, because the Council had not time adequately to consider it before the close of tlie session. In 1826, another bill transmitted from the Assembly underwent great amendments in the council, but failed from the lateness in the period at which it was sent up. In 1827, a bill for the adminis* tration of justice was read a second time in the Council, but the prorogation of tl.e House prevented anv further proceeding upon it. Sixthly, a bill for regulating gaols was rejected on the ground that the object ought to have been provided for by a local rate, instead of the ciiai^e being thrown upon the public revenue. Seventhly, a bill to regulate th« office of justice of the peace was rejected, because it fixed the qualification at 100/. per annum of freehold estate, and the Council were of opinion that this was unsuited to the circumstan- cesof the country, and would have excluded a great many useful men. Eiglitlily, the Mi- litia Act was amended by the Legislative Council and returned by them four days before theprorogationin 1827, but never came back to them from the Assembly. Ninthly, the for increasing the representation of the province was rejected for the reason I have for- merly mentioned. Tenthly, a bill for securing public monies in the hands of tlie receiver- feneral was lost, because it deprived tlie executive government of their aiithority over that <>ficer,and did not require that the public money should be accounted for to_ the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury. Eleventhly, a bill for the independe-.^ce of the judges was Injected because the effect of this bill would have been to render the judges subservient to the Assembly by exposing them to impeachment and trial before that tribunal. T«elfthly, the bill for appointing an agent Wii« rejected because it was intended to establish a dis- tinct correspondence between the Assembly and the agent of the colony, in which the Governor would not have paiticipatod. I sliould state that in assigning the reasons for the Injection of those bills^ I am taking upon me to speak on subjects of which [ know nothing except ft-om inquiry and hearsay ; I cannot pledge myself to the accuracy of this account, lew only say that fnch is the account received in the Colonial Department. What 24 June ibCH. m f ? 1/; i 'V'.' I: 1 1 .fit! t52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE 7. Stephen, jiin. What are the usnal powers of i;oloiual agents ? — There are two clashes of colonial ajrents. ^■^""•* In those colonies whicn we call (the phrase is an unfortunate one) " Conquered Colonies " 84 J ^~iR«rt7 where there is no lejjislative asvembly, the a^cnt is appointed by t le Governor, and con * responds with the Governor. There is no other constituted authority competent to make the appointment. In colonies where tliere are representative assemblies the agent is ap- Jointed by an Act of Assembly. He is so appointed by namd, and a salary is {^nted to im in the Act itself. The Act usually constitutes a joint committee of the Assembly ami of the Leg'islative Council, to correspond with the a^ent. Th.it officer is in habitual coni. munication, on the affairs of his constituents, with the Colouiiil Department. Making all due allo'-^ance for the disparity of the two offices, the ag«nt of a colony is accredited iu t:ie Colonial Department iu the same way iu which a forei^ minister \s accredited in tie Foreign Department. Of course the analogy is very imperfect, but t^e duties have age- iieral resemolancc. Canada is the only colony having a representative legislature iu 'which there is no agent appointed by tlie Le^slatiire. Does the sort of agent which the two provmces of Canada desire to have diflfer in any re- raarkable degree from the sort of agent you have described to exist in the other proriiic^cs y It differs, as I believe, only iu the circumstance, that th« Assembly in Cana«fa \i-isli to conduct the oorrospondence entirely to themselves, and to leave the Council out of it. Should you see any objection to the Canadas having an agent in this country in the same manner that other colonies having legislatures h.ive agents ?— On the contrary I should see great advantage iu it ; I apprehend that the appointment of an agent for any colony is attended with the greatest advantages both to the government and the colonists. ' The only objection I can state is, that such an appointment would disturb the existiiiir agent in his office. I do not mean to say that this should weigh as a senior objection, but it is an accidental inconvenience. ■ Has not the ground on which the appointment of an a^ent has been resisted in Lower ' '' Canada been, that the Governor alwa 8 said that he was the ouly proper raediiun of comrau' • nication between the Government and the colony ? — I believe the Governor has sjud that he 'was the representative of the colony. Language of that kind has perhaps been thrown . ^> out without much consideration, and ought not, I conceive, to be very closely critici8ed, , In those colonies M-hioh have agents, is tliere any check by the Governor upon tha money voted as the salary of those agents ? — Of course the Governor must assent to the Act appointing him. , ' - Has any praotical inconvenience arisen from that where the agent has been oWiirodto put himself in opposition to the (ilovernor in any respect, that there has been any ditii'cultj ' with regard to the voting of his salary ? — Never, m my recollection. Acts appointing agents arrive from year to V ear constantly. Is not there an Act of the province of Upper Cauada of a late date repealing the power to appoint an agent ? — 1 think not of a very late date. I have read vers diiigentW > through the Acts for the last fii'tecn years, and I do not, at present, recbllect such au , Act. •■ , Is not the salary of the present agent, appointed hy the Governor, one of tho.se .salaries thdt is always made a matter of difficulty with respect to the appropriation in Lower CV nada ? — It is. , Does it occur to you that it would tend in Any degree to promote peace, in the provinces, if a power of appeal to the Kin^r in Council were given ?— There is at present a power of appeal to the King in Council in all judicial matters, andall legislative matters. T'^e King . iu Council acts as the ultimate judge, and as the ultimate legislator. Is not the Executive Council the ultimate court of appeal in the Canadas ? — The Executive Council, with a president appointed for the purpose by the Governor. For the purpose of trying appeals from the courts ? — From the courts of Quebec, Montreal, and Three Rivera ; from their decision there is an appeal to tiie Kingiu Couu* oil. Why should the appeal not he at once from the courts of Montreal and Quebec to the King in Council ? — In all codes founded on the civil law a double or appellate jurisdiction is an essential part of the system of jurisprudence; a French process always si)|>pose8 a power of appeal ; it would liave very greatly dcrauged the ideas and habits of the whole so- ui ety to have refused it. Is - ^1 1 iff r ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 233 Is the Executive Council calculated as a court ofappeal to jjive satisfaction to the pro- , stenhen iuik rinceV — It coutJiins all the judjyes in the country, except the judjife a;urainst whose deci- * E^ul^'e. lion the apneal is brought ; I suppose it to be the best constituted tribunal wliich the prn-^_ ^^ ' —^ rinre affords. 24 Jun« ites. Do )on happen to know what regulations h'avebeen made intheCanadas for the maktn^r or maiutainiug of roads in ikose provinces ? — Wl'at may be called the General Road Bill of Lower Canada is the 36th of Geo. 3, c. 9. The effect of t: at bill is to put all public roads under the direction of the grand voyer of each district. The occupiers are bound to keep the roads in rejiair. If a new road is wanted application is to be nmde to the grand Toyer, a public meeting is to be held at a place which he is to appoint by adveitisement ; he is to hear the parties, to visit the proposed line of road, and to make an ordet* granting or rejecting the application. From his order ttiere is an appeal to the quarter ses- (ions. Various grants have been made in the province for the improvement of internal rommunicattons ; I have made a list of^ome of them ; it is as foLows. In 1815, 8,6001. vere granted for roads and bridges. In the same year 25,0001. were granted for the La . Chine Canal. In 1817, 55,0001. were voted for internal communications by land and water. In 1821, a further grant of 10,0001. was made towards tlie La Chine Canal ; 12,0001. more were granted in 1823 for the same purpose. In the same year 50,0001. were voted for Chambly Canal. lu 1824, a loan of 20,0001. vias raised for the La Chine Canal; and iu ;.^ 1323, various suras amounting to 2,58(H. were voted for roads. Do you know any thin<^ about th j application of those monies ?— >They are applied by , commissioners appointed by the Governor. Do you know v, hethnr that expenditure of nionoy has been attended withany good re-> lulte? — It is not in my power to give ^ny information on tl'at subject. Do you think that an improved system might be adopted with regard to roads ? — I ap-' prehend it would be desirable that matters of that nature should be done by the vicinage,, and under their immcdiiite direction. Would iinot be desirable t! at an officer should be appointed in each township or each tub-division of the province, who ^hould have power to provide for the making of roads ? — Thatdepends on many local considerations, which I cannot estimate; lean only say, that I tliiuk it would be desirable to act upon the principle of leaving tiic local districts as far M possible to regulate their own local concerns. Do you know what bills have been passed, the object of whicti has been to regulate the edncalion of t e people ? — The bills for regulating education are the 41st of George tho 3d, c. 17, by whn h t e Governor was authorized to incorporate certain persons as trus- tees of the schools of Hoyal foundation. A president wm to be appointed by him. Free schools were to be erected in each parish, which were to be governed by ' niles to be nuide bv the corporation. That body was to buy the land,' the parishioners / ^ were to build tlie school-house, and the Governor was to appoint the school*.. ' master. The statute 4 Geo. IV. c. 31, declared every ^ftn^rjte or vestry in the province capableof holding land for the support of an elementary scl.ool. One school was to be es- tablished in every parish having 200 families. The schools were to be under the same * administration and inspection as the fabrique, and the fabrique was at liberty to employ one-fourth of its income in supporting the school. The Assembly have made vanous grants for the support of schools, 4001. were granted for the support of sehools at Quebec and Montreal, and one of 18,0001. in 1826 for the support of schools generally ; besides ' four other grants which were made for the same purpose iu the same year. Is that system in operation which t^as enacted by tose bills? — I apprehend that the , • first Act has not been enforced ; tlie Act erecting elementary schools 1 believe to be in oiMTation. Do you know any t' ingof the system of education pursued in t'lose schools ? — Not at all. Is it complained of at all on the ground of its religious character ? — I have never heard of any such complaint. Do you know whether there is much conflict in Lower Canada, upon the sulyect of edu* cation, between the two denominations of Christians ? — I understand that there has been. I believe that muc ) controversy arose respecting the Act for erecting the corporation. The Roman Catholics were afraid that their children would bo exposed to some temptation to change tlieir religion, and did not choose to scud them to those schools. Ar* 4- %W .1 • ',■■, - i !^ i ,..{,■■ ! i % k'i .1 ■ll 254 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE t4juiic^ isas. Ar« you acquainted with the steps that have been taken for the apportionment of the X Stephen, iun. revenue between the two provinces ? In the year 1793 commissioners were first appoint- Eiquire. gjj ^Q ^pg^j. ^jjjj Upper Canada respecting the collection of duties, and the payment of drawbacks, An agreement was accordingly made between th^ two provinces, to the effect that Upper Canada was not to impose duties on goods imported into Lower Canada ; and that one eighth of aU duties levied in the Lower Prtovince should be paid to the Upper Province. This contract was to be in force till December 1796. In 1796 a second com- mission of arbitration with Upper Canada was appointed. In the year 1798 the powers of this commission were prolonged, and its number increased. In next year, 1799, ther completed a contract, the terms of which I do not very exactly understand ; but I thiuk it continued in effect the former agreement. In the year 1800 commissioners were again appointed. In the year 1801 they a third time revived the oldcontract. In 1804 there vas another appointment of commissioners ; and in 1805 the contract was again confirmed. In 181 1 the agreement was continued till 1814; in that year it was further prolonged till 1816. In 1817 commissioners were again appointed to meet ; and in the interval 20,0001. was paid to Upper Canada on account. In 1818 a new compact was made with Upper Canada ; the effect of which was that one fifth of all duties was to be paid to the Upper Province, and that no import duties were to be levied there. The provinces could not afterwards come to any agreement; and the Act was passed by which tiie Parliament gave the Upper Pro- vince one fifth, till the arbitrators should have investigated the case. The result ot that in- restigatiou has been to give to Upper Canada one fourth.. In the Act of the 31 Geo. 3, giving the constitution, there is a clause trhich enacts that when the provincial legislature enacts any thing respecting the church-lands, modifying eitherthestateofthose lands or affecting to regulate the aopointmcnt to benefices, sucn acts must be laid before the British Paniament, and if the Britieh Parliament disapproves of those acts of the Colonial L^slature, the British Parliament is empowered to petition the King to withhold his assent. Do you think there is any possibility of extending that kind of remedy to any of the matters which have been the subjects of oissension between the two legfislative bodir'', of Canada ? — I think that would be nothing else than to transfer to Parliament the duty which at present belongs to the ministers of the Crown. Instead of those controversi4i being agitated in Downing-street, they would be carried on in one of these committee rooms. The plan suggested, as I understand it, is this: supposing either House of General Assembly to pass a bill, and the other to reject it, that Parliament should decide whether the bill was properly rejected. If you adopt such a measure, I think that La that case you must appoint a standing Canada committee here ; and I am well convinced that the two Houses of General Assembly would provide that committee with such abun- dance of occupation, that its duties would be of the most formidable nature. I confess I thiuk the present constitution in that respect is incomparably better. Your opinion upon the whole is that nothing of that kind would be practicable ?— Yes; the practical objection is that they would give you more to do than you would ever get through with. ' i ,- ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. S5S Jovia, 26^ dieJunii, 1828, ,AIr, William Hamilton Merritt, called in; and Examined. Arc you a native of Upper Canada ? — I am. Areyou a proprietor in that province ? — Yes, Are you at all acquainted with the disputes now going on in that province, respecting the clei^Y reserves ?— I am not particularly acqni^nted with them. I kqpw the situation of the clergy reserves, and tlie way thej are held. Is the improvement of the country materially retarded by tlie manner in which the dtrgj reserves have been laid out ?f country 4o yoi| allude B — I allude to the whole extent of both provinces, with the exception of 150 miles on the St. Lawrence in Upper Canada, between the boundary line and Kingston ; in this distance we possess equal advantages' in ohr internal communications, and property is equally valuable on either side, according 'to its local situation. Will you point out some particular partof Upper Canada to which your observations apply?— From Kingston upward; particularly on Lake Erie or above the Niagara river, Is what way does the w&nt of a sea-port town affect the vt^ue of land in Upper Canada? —By excluding us from any participation in its wealth. The capital of all countries cen- tres in its cities; for instance, the wealth of the stat^ of New York centres in the city of New York, and the wealth of Upper Canada centres in Montreal ; they bring a portion of that wealth back from New York to imjirove the country by building mills, making roads, canals, &c. &c. in consequence of which, together with the cheapness, facility and re^arity in their communications, th6y can employ capital once a month during the nanhole country ; the improving of the one part will benefit t!ie remainder ; the} bare only one general interest. b your complaint then that the Assembly of Lower Canada does not meet you in im- proving the navigation of tiie St. Lawrence between Montreal and your limits ? — When we seeaneiglibouringstate, wit^^out the aid of any revenue from foreign commerce, or duties on imports of any description for its own use, connect lake Erie with the Hudson, from Buffaloc, Lake Ontario, from Oswego, and lake Champlain from White Hall, hj canuls ; to construct w: ich tliev had to ascend high summits and surmount the most for* midable obstacles; while the natural outlets of all those lakes are in the St. Lawrence and could have been connected with tiie ocean in Canada, by a steam-boat or ship canal, for one-fourth oft' e money it required to construct their boat-canals, we have reason to think there has been at least a very great want of attention to t^e suljject. At the same time I have much satisfaction in stating tliat the Legislature of Lower Canada contributed to the connection of Lakes Erie and Ontario, by taking stock to the amount of 25,0001. in the Welland Canal Company, and manifested at the time the best disposition to pro- mote any useful improvement, and many individual members since then have expressed tlieir readiness to assist in the improvement of the St. Lawrence, although it is notreasona- ble to suppose on general principles the people of Lower (i!anada can feel t!:e same interett in improving the country above them, as those who have to pay for every barrel of floiir tliey send to Montreal ; one-third of its value for freight, and on our heavy and most use- ful articles from Montreal, such as English iron, one-half the amount of its cost. I will mention a casein poin^ to prove this. Every member from the city of New York opposed the appropriation of money for, the construction of the Erie canal ; it was carried by tue in- fluence and number of the western members, wlio felt the same interest in the undertak- j log we do in this ; and although it has proved equally beneficial to the city, they would not have had a canal to this day if the state haa been divided or separated as we are io Upper and Lower Canada above Montreal. Ilo» y " ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CAWADA. 257 How can !i line w'',ich only setwratos two jurisd'ctioiii prove buoIi an insurmonntablo m,. biirrier to tlie vvualt ; of IJi»j)fr (jan^ulii ? — Tlio roason is simply tliis : Upper Canada can- IF". H. Merritl. not nartit.'ipate in thooommfrcial vvenltli and and advantages of a sea-port, tlio sa«ue as it<~— ^ » i*oumb;»in tl»« stat'i of New- York if there was a line drawn across t'ic state above "S Jun« isss. Allmny, and it w.is laid ont into two separate states ; the upper could not participate in the wealth of New York, and "ould remiiiu poor. The main cause of tlie prosperity of that statu is inhavin'j' capital returned from the city, and the Le;iislature poswessinp; power to command the crc.'dit and capital of f^c wliole for their mntual benelk. So satisiied are tliey tliut tlieir boiHidaries could not he bettered, that uitliall their propensity to changes and to try experiments, no man ever dreams of cuttinjy the state into two" parts ; they chaiijjo the constitution, cut it up into counties, and create as many new odices as the v can, but the natural boundaries of the state remain untouched, althouj^h their population is about 2,000,000. Every state in the union, where an angle can by possibility be run to the ocean, possesses a sea-port: and it so liappens that t.ie money to effect the iutornal iui- provements in t 'osc states is always provided in those very cities. When we see two countries la^inji^ side by side, as the western part of tl'o state of New York and Upper Canada, possossin;i^ equal advantav an Montreal? — I think that would be suffi- cient witnout a union. Do you conceive that suo'i a division- would answer all the purposes of commercial in- tercourse, and would be mor? advauta;^eous tian an incorporation of the two provinces into one V — 1 1 ink that ultimately a union would be more advantan^eous, but wo would avoid all the diiiiculties t'lat the people of Upper Canada anticipate if a union was to take place : they think they would be under the influence of a majority in Lo'.ier Ca'jada. Would it be possible to make snch a jjeojfraphical division of the provinces by runnlnj^ aliae dovvnthe rivur Ottawa, and then passin<( north and west of Montreal, so as to in- cladc in the Upper Province none of the seigneuries of the Lower Province ? — No, it would not ; there are four or five small seigneiiries between JVIontreal ai:d the present boundary line. Supposing' a similar line were run from La Prairie, on the other side, to the river Richeheu ; are there any sei^neuries south and w est of such a line ? — Yes, there are four or five. Is not a great proportion of the English population in Lower Canada inoluded «itl.in tKe town and sei^-uiory or island of Montreal ? — Yes. Do you conceive tliat the majority of the property and wealt'i of the town of Montreal in in tlie hands of the Enplisi or of the French C'anadians ? — The numbers are in favour of the French, but I should think the commercial property is in' favour of the English. Were not the w' ole of the seij|>[neurial rijrhts of Montreal in the hands of the seminary ? , — Yes, luudcrstandthey were, but the Government had a claim to them. « Are you awai'e that the Government have come £o an a^eement by which they have ia K2 their If I ((■ ' %]■: ■ hi} '■ :.i )■ tM MIXUTE8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr. H^ H iterrUt *''®*'' P®"*'" ^''o*® seiffneurial rijfhts, with the intention ofiuaking a mutation of the ten- \ . 'lire ? — No, I was not aware t'lat they had. %a Juio 1828. ' Would the commercial object of the Upper Province be answered by annexing Montreal to it ? — Yes. In what way can ^oods be carried to Montreal ? — Any vessel of 400 tons can jjo diroot from this to Montreal; and as I before mentioned, althoug^h the distance is 3,2(K) miles *' , tlie frci^itiH only £\ 28. Gd. per ton ; whereati the next 400 miles it is 61. 12ti. 9d. Do you think, if you had tlie town of Montreal as a port of entry, you would be able to control your own imports, and levy your own duties ? — Yes, without anydiilicuitv. Without interfering iu any manner with the province of Lower Canada? — Yes; the inhabitants of each country should be allowed to purchase freely in t!°.e otlier. Supposing a vessel bound to Upper Canada wore to pass througii the St. Lawrence, and no duties were to be collected upon her at Quebec, would it not be possible for her, ia her passage up the St. Lawrence, to smuggle those goods into Lower Canada for con8uni|)> lion there ? — They couU not smuggle intJ Lower Canada between Quebec and Montreal with any greater facility tban they can now smuggle between Quebec and Anticosti. There rs no smuggling now, that I am aware of; and it would be much ag-ainst tlie interest of this country, as well as Canada, to put on such high duties as wQuld tentpt smii>ris country ; they would enter at Quebec or at Montreal, as they pleased. Do you know any thing of that district of country below Quebec ?— No, I merely passed dowa on the river once. Do you object to the arrangement that has been made with regard to the division of the dnties between the Upper and, the Lower Province? — No; I do not think the divlMiou of duties important; it is of very little consequence to tlie general prosperity of the country, whether a few pounds, moreorless, are paid either to Lower or Upper Canada; their general interest is, or rather should be the same. I am warranted in my opinion respecting the effect of duties by witnessing their proceedings ia the state of New Vork, from which I draw my inferences. She^ derives no particular ad vantage from the revenue of her imports ; they are exclusively under the control of the general government; still she is enabled to appropriate large sums annually for education ; pays her civil list, and ac- complishes the most exten&^e internal improvements, without any aid from the general government ; while we, with a revenue of 90,0001 per annum, cannot jMiy even our civil list. The principal object and the greatest advantage t'le provinces will derive by the accession of Montreal to Upper Canada is, that by placing the internal wealth of the countr) at her own disposal, she will be enabled to appropriate a portion oft bit wealth in the improre- ment of the interior, and make the country rich enough to defray its own internal ex- penses, and not depend «holl> on taxing British commerce for every local purpose. Do you apprehend that there would be any serious objection, on the part of ti^e Frencli Canadians of Montreal, to be transferred to the Upper Province ? — 1 cannot sav. Mf own opinion is, if they had an opportunity to compare their present situation, with the , , advantages they must derive by the change, they would not ; and I know that every man in Upper Canada would be in favour of it. Do YOU think it would be just to introduce among that population anew law, with all its incidents ? — I do not see the necessity for altering tho law as it at present stands. Tb» French lav, I have no doubt, would be gradually altered, as changes might seem advan- tageous. If the accession takes place, they would rapidly become En^ish, if we can, judge from the result at New Orleans, and as this state of things, from our local situation must take place, I think it just and politic to bring it about as soon as possible, tiiat we maY^b* one people. '^ What is the law that prevails with respect to personal property in Upper Canada ?— The same as here. Does it differ in any way from the administration of the law, as to pergonal property ' in Lower Canada ?'— I am not acquainted with the administration of the law in Lower Canada. U ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENi^OF CANADA. V>9 Is there, oriH t'lercnot, any ditferenco with respect to the law of personal property iu Upjxr Canada fttid in Lower Canada V — I cannot say. It iias bevh staled by 8ome of the vtitncsses before this Conunittee, that it would be ^' M8i in nractice to establish Huch a system of custom-house rc|rulationa, at the present '"' poiut ot divisioi? between tl'e two provinces, as to enable tlie inliabitaiits of Upper Canada ^® *'"''• *•*•• Mr. » // llerriit. vhat Uixcs they please upon goods coming; into y danger of smu^ling trom the Lower Provii that province, and to levy tliem ince, in case of any variation of to nnposo wt without any duty between the two provinces ; is it your opinion that tliat would be a practicable irntnpwment ? — Vo, I think it quite imprncticable. Will you state whj you think sO ? — There are many reasons. If a temptation wai offered lor smuggling it could not be resisted ; for instance, in the ^viuter the country is covered witl) snow, and they could go into Upper Canada whenever thev pleased ; tlicy mi^lit enter in rarioua ways, by boats, sleighs, waggons, &G. as tltey formerly smuggled be- tween the United States and Canada. What is tlie extent of the frontier between Upper and Lower Canada, throughout which smuggling migitt be carried on ? — Many miles, from St Regis, opposite Cornwall, near tlie whole length of Lake St. Francis, thence along the boundary to tlie river Ottawa, and so on all the line of that river. Supposing Montreal was tlie port of entry in the Upper Province, what would prevent fmuggiing from tiio Upper Province into the Lower Province ? — There would be no necessity for tluit. Tue iuliabitants of Lower Canada might go and buy from the port of Montreal, and the inhabitants of Upper Canada might go and buy from the port of Quebec the same asthoy do now ; they pay no duty ou crossing the line between Mon- treal and Up|M;r Canada. Supposing an inequality of dut^ in the two provinces, and that no article were to pay a less duty in Upper Canada than it paid in Lower Canada, what would there be to pre- vent that article from being smuggled into Lower Canadain consequence of that inferiority ofdut^ V — If either province were impolitic enough to put a higher duty on anyone article than was paid in the other province, the consequence would be, that every body would go and buy in the place where it nas lowest ; but as I havebefote mention- ed, there should be no second duty after goods are once lauded, either at the port of Que- bec or Montreal Supposing that Lower Canada imposed a duty upon rum, and that the Upper Pro- vince imposed no duty upon rum, would it not be the interest of tlie inhabitants of the Lower Province to buy their rum in Montreal, and to hring it into consumption ii^ tha Lower Province ? — It would. Do you suppose it possible that there should be different scales of duties in the twp Canadas under any circumstances ? — I do not. The duties at present are regulated by the Trade Acts ; and if a much higher duty on any one article were imposed, it would prove injurious to ourselves as well as the grower or manufacturer. For instance, rum, coffee, sugar, to our West India colonies, who receive our flour in exchange, and on ^oods to the manufacture here. The cheaper these can be introduced into Canada the more will be disposed of, and we will obtain a much greater revenue from lower Duties than kijrh ones. If Lover and Upper Canada uerq tv\o distiuci countries, with separate in- terests, like the United States and Canada, some restrictive measures, in crossing tho boundary line, would be necessary, as they are, it is not. You are aware that by the schedule of the Trade Act in 1824 and 1835, various duties were imposed upon articles which might be imported from the United States into the two Canadas, do you conccive~that in Upper Canada the payment of those duties is avoided in couscquence of the difficulty of preventing smuggling? — Not in geperal; there uiay be some articles smuggled in consequence of the duties upon them being too high, but in general they are not. Mention the articles upon which you conceive smuggling to take place ; — I cannot men^ tion any particular articles- Are you of opinion that iu consequence of the nature qf the frontier, between the Unit- ed States and Upper Canada, it never would be practicable to enforce the paypent of duties upon articles « hich can be afforded cheaper Jrom the United States to Upper C^ nada than from England, iucluding the expense of freight? — No, I think not; if ron I « 1 ', \' ■ -3- I ■ MINUTB8 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE j/ff_ . place a hijflier duty upon artirlfiB from tlie Uiiiteil Statos t an will pnv the pxpoime nnd W. H. Merrill, risk, they will (iraiipfglK fhoni in, auJ it will be iinposniljle to j)i'ov«'iit it. For ii.Htuiice • I— ..A (the whole of Upper Canada waM amiplied vithtou ironi tiie (hiited Stutos, Itd'oo tlio si6 June IS28. India Couinuny M«>nt their ships to Quebec direct (iilllHHifrh tiie article was proiiihitod altogether.) Now the tables are turned, the Aniericaim will be snjiplieil tbi^ou'rh ('.ma'ia with British manufactures, because we take less duty than they do; they will snnij,';;le one hundred to one more tlian we do. The British nianuructures «ill be sent iu bv the • .; St. Lawrence, and if ve improve tte facilities, tliey will be carried to the rcnioteKt mirt of Upper Canada, and they will be bniuj,''i,'led iu great fjuautitics into Anu'rica along that line. Can you iufor a the Committee how fur the Enirlisli law of descent prevails in Upper . . Canada? has it been modified by local stiitute ? — It has not; a bill was pasised iu the Lower House, but not in the Upper. Can youiuform the Committee of the modification which that bill proposed ?— It was making a certain distribution of the property Wiieu a person died intestate, but I do not know exactly what th« division was. With respect to the law of mortgagee in that colony, ran you state precisely how ttiat \ . law stands ? — -i. mortgage is given as a security upon proi»erty, any persou can foreclose • it and sell it. Is money in point of fact lent upon the secnrity of Hiortga;jp ? — It is. Is tliere a general system of registration '( — Yes, the reyirjlralion is very siniple, each county has a register otfice ; if a pei-son wants to buy property, he go«'s oud pay» Is. Cd. and he finds immediatel* whether it is incumbered or not; for if the person had in. cumbered it and not registered it, the person who bought it and registered it would hold it. Then jfll mortgages must be registered in, order to be effectual? — Yes, every thing ' affecting the conveyance «f land. Is that system found to work well ? — It is universally approved of; there is not a person in the country who does not feel the advantage of it. I)o you know in what form man-iage settlements are drawn ?J-There are no marriage settleiflents there that I know of ; it is very seldom that any thing of tlie kind is cuter- ' • . ed into. Is there any sj'stem of entail of property ? — No. ' - How do they provide for widws r* — They get one-thii'd at the death of the husband; they are entitled to dower accordiug' to tiie English law. Do they get oue-third Loth of all the oii;nnal landed property of the husband and of all after acquired land V— Of all that he has at the time of his death ; if he sells any property, she bsffs her dower on the deed. Can you state wlmt is the prevailing practice in Willing ; is it the practice toraalie an eldest son as it is called, or-to leave the property equally distributed? — That depends al- together upon the wish of the person. ' tiave you known instances of both? — No ; if a person does not wish to divide his pro- perty, lie does not make a will, because it then goeK to the eldest son. Which is the more frequent occurrence of the two ? — ^Tiie general practice is to make wills. Do ^ou conceive that the American settlers who have settled in L^pper Canada are at- tached to the laws of Ui)per Canada, or that they have a preference for the law g of tiie United States ? — I think they are decidedly attsiched to the laws of Upper Canada, whicb are very similar to those of the United States. The inliabitants of Upper Canada are more attaci ed to the present form of government than t ey ai'e to that of the United States. They gave the most convincing proof of it by tlieir conduct during the hXi wars, at the commencement of which there was but one regiment of soldiers, the 4 1st, on the wliok frontier between Kingston and Sandwich. The country was repeatedly invaded duringtiiat year; and toits inhabitants, as then composed, is its delence during that period principally to be ascribed. Those people were admitted into Canada on the most liberal principles be- fore the war ; and the most impolitic and injurious measure the Goveruiuent of this country •T6r adopted towards that was in excluding them since. Many people, to my certain know- ' , ledge, 0T< THE CIVIL OOVERNMBNT OF CANADA. «61 Mr. H. Mfrfitt. r the husband; Ipilljp.sold their ))n)|)orty in the Rtate ofNt'w York, where thoy were dis-snttsGed in pnjing hcitv. luxoM for tilt) .su|)j)ort of what tlipy coiireived nil utijiist war, wilh u view ^p-, ofscttliti;' in l'(»|)cr Canada, cnint; to tlie frontier, found a reNtri«;tion, and procerled on * nitli their capital to the stiite of Ohio, to tlio unexampled increiwo of tliat Ktate. \Veu;ost 26 Junt IMS. inaterially contributed to the very {jreat injury of Upper Cana(hi, and tlio depreciatioa in Tiihic of property. Tiie Ainericjuis arc the inoNt useful and euterprisiui; peojtiu which Clin Hcttlu a new country; aud their principle \h to dofend tlie country they live in, not tho one of their birth aud uuiny wiio hud not settled iu Canada oneyeur were us faithful to it on ' anv native. llowever loyal the peneral character of the American settlers might Iiave been, wer« there not some exceptions ? — Yes, there were a few ; but full as luauy anion;; Euro- pcatiH, in proportion to their number. Are you a native of Upper Canada ? — I am not a native of it ; my father wns an Ameri- can loyalist, and I happened to he born iu the state of New York ; but I bave lived all nij lil'tMu Upper Canada, aud my feelings arc wholly .Ctuiadian. Do you consider it to bo t' e prevailing wish of the Upper Canadians to remain con- nected with this country V — Yes. Tiiere never M'as a country more happily situated tliiiu l'|»j)or Canada in her connection with this country. From lier soil, climate and situation «licniuHt be wholly agricultural ; you receive her produce on more favourable terms ti au the produce of the Americans; we receive your manufactures on paying a niodoiate; duty * of about two and a half per cent, while tho Americans are now paiiiigfiom 60 to 100, con- sequently we must obtain our supplies at a much cheaper rate. Every iievMOU v ill not only see'but feel this advantage, so that by securing our interest you have tne best guaran- tee of our attachment and connection. W'e are naturally rivals to t!ie Americans; we jfTOw t le same articles, seek the best markets, and endeavour to draw the products of each other through our ditl'ercnt communications. Tlio only thing we require as before stated, tonlace Upper Canada iu the most enviable situation, is unrestricted immigration, au uninterrupted communication to the ocean, and tlic possession of a commorciiJ port. Iiulepeudently of the advantages they derive from the trade of this country, do )0U conceive it to be t' eir wish to continue a province of this country ? — Yes. The only mca* sure adopted by oUr Goverument, that I know of, v»liich gave general dissatisfaction, was io placing restriction on emigration. The reason I heard assigned for this measure immediately after the war, wlien it took place, was that the admission of American settlers would be a means of disseminating democratical principles, altliongh no evil liad arisen from tliose who came bgfore the war; on the contrary, they prov- ed equally zealous in its defence. If, in trut!>, their form of government is better adapted for our country, it is quite impossible, from our coutinual intercourse with them, to prevent 0|Ur imbibing those principles ; and anv attempt to prevent it conveys an admifsion that we think it the h'^st, and does tar more injury than service. That portion of the inhabitants of the United States wi.o would settle in Canada ' ' would give a decided preference to our (Soverninent, and would make the best subjects and settlers, upon t' e same principle, aud for the same cause, that the great majority of English, St:otci) and Irish who settle in America become the most vile democrats in t at country; for neither party « ould go and settle under any government witliout being pre- disposed in its favour. The only difference in the form of government in the state of New York and Upper Canada, consists in the appointment ot (iovernor. Upper House or Legislative Council, and magistrates : the former, with ui, is appointed by ti.c Crown during pleasure, the Upper House for life, (independent of botn Crown and People,) magistrates, &c. by the executive; our parish oflioers elected by the people. They iu New York elect the whole, and in this only do we differ. We have the mil benefit of tlieir democracy without its attendant evils. They are continually electioneering and changing eVery officer in the state, from u governor to a constable ; constitution and all. In a late change in tlieir constitution they adopted universal suffrage as it is termed, pay- ing no regard to property. This is found on trial to create much dissatisfaction among themselves. A man in office being dependent on popular favour, (if he wishes tc retain his situation,) makes it a study to pleas*.' the roafority, right or wrong, and cannot act independently. Many of them feel the cfftct of this, and we see it ; and I am seniibU bat \ - 'I M :i'/ 4- t09 MINUTES or EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Jfr. W. H. Mtrriil |;;i::i MMfn/^fT W but few, if any, in Canada doiiire a changfp. Thorcfore indopcnHmt of our intprnti which in the ({[ovcrning niotivc, wu liuve good reaiton to he NatiHtivd M'ilh our t'unn of Govenunent. '„ , "" T"^ ThtMi you thinlc it tlio nrovailinff wish not to make the (loveniinent more democratic *"*•'""•'*''''• than it Ik at present ?-I do. An! tht'v Hatitifiud with t'e coni»titution of the LegiHlativu Council af it nt pr^Kpnt ox- iHtH? — They arc ttofur OM I have any Ifuowlcd^o ; it would lie hotter if f hoy iippoiiitrd, in , the Lcf^JNlative Council, men more ((enrrally dintrihutcd over tlie province iiiMteatI of soi(reat u proportion heinj; reNident nt York, nn it would add more \vei<;ht to tl>e Itudy ; ana 1 think late uppointnicntH have heen more distant. They Here at an early duy. Are tiiey HatlHtied witli the couNtitution of t e clerijy corpoj-ution V — TI.omb that do not belooK to the Church of Kn{{laiid are not. The Church ot i^cotland want to |;«t a Nhare of the property, and if thevMere to (>et it, and it **aH only hetween those two churcht-H, I think the people in (renerni would he more diKbatihlii'd than they ore now, because all the other denoniiuationB would lay clnini to it. What is the prevailing religious belief in the Upper Province ? — They arc divided a> roong a number; I think the MethodiHts aie the prevujling opinion, and I think they buvi done more good than any otherN. Do you mean the Wesle, an MethodiNtn V — They ore of tlie name faith, but belonpnjf to a conference establiMhed in the Htate of New York; they came into that country uhen it was very new. Do they connect ttieiaselves at all with the Church of England ? — No, they ore (juite separate. Arc their miuiHtcra generally AmericauH or Engliuhmcn ?— They ore divided ; there art a numl>er of Upper CanadiauN among them. Have you any reason to believe that persons of different religious persuasions are in the habit of conforming to the ^^or8hip of the Church of England when churches are built and clergymen provided ? — I do not think they are ; I do not thii.k they like the form of it generally ; my reason is, tiat there are more of other persuasions than of the Clairch of England. What persuasion do you belong to yourself ? — I belong to the Cl>urc'i of England. Do you happen to kn6w how many members of the Assembly in Upper Canada are members of the Church of England ? — I do not. Are the clirrches fully attended as far as you know ?— In some pi its they are ; it d^ pends altogether upon the situation of them. Are you acqu.Mnted Avith the Act b» the name of the Sedition Act ? — Yes. Do yon know tt:e history of that Act?— It was an Act passed a long time ajfo, dnring the troubles in Ireland, in'order to prevent Iris!;men, who migtit he conceived to enter- tain dangerous principles from coming' into the country ; the only instance I know of ita ever being acted upon, was in the case of Mr. Gourlay. What are the powers that it gives ? — It gives power to a commissioner of the Conrtof King's Bench to order a person out of the country ; if I go and take an oath t' at I believe that such a person has not taken the oath of allegiance within a certain time, and that he i« a dangerous man, the Commissioner orders t^ie person out of the country, if he doesuot choose to go, he is then confined. Is th^re no appeal ?<— No. Mr. Gourlay is a case in point ; he was ordered to leave the country, he would Mot, and was put in gaol- Has the House of Ajssembly repeatedly passed bills to do away with that Act ?— It has. Have they been constantly rejected by the Legislative Council? — They have. It is then in existence at this moment ? — It is. Do you happen to know by what majorities in the House of Assembly those Bills were carried ? — They were carried almost unanimously inthe House of Assembly. Has it not been for some time past the first bill that the House of Assembly always pan- «d before it proceeded to oti'er business ? — Yes. Do you know upon what principle the Legislative Council refused to repeal the Bill 'i •—I have heard the Bill was re;iected because thej conceived no evil bad ansen from the ezistenca »re democratic ON THE CIVIL GOVEUNMENT OF CANADA Ml Mr. rti«(«nc« oftho A<;t, and tliey did nut ronc<>iv(rnni«>nt ? — Notliiiig but an hourrary one, I HI) A coininiHNiunt'r uf tlu* iica<'*>. , Aro you a holder uf lnnend upon \«hitfootinaf their <;oucurrence was re()uired, thejf could not contribute moneyJuHt now, if their natural Hituation is improved in the way I iiRve roontioued, thejr will be able to a8Ni»t in any tliin^'. Do you think that if they had the meanH of assistin^r they would be disposed to ajinifit ia it? — Yes, if we are placed in tlie situation that the state of New York is, by possessing' a ^ port of our own, we will be enabled to contribute to any measure for the auvaucemeut of tke country. What part of Upper Canada do you reside in ? — In the district of Niagara. Do you kno^* any thing of the administration of juutico there r' — Yes. * ' Is it in a respectable state, or is it disapproved of? — It is in a respectable state. jj! ..< Samuel Gale, Esquire, again ca led in ; and Examined. YOU have already stated to the Committee that yov attend here with a view to ropre- Ktit the feelings and the opinions of t' e inhabitants of the townships of Lower Canada ; the Committee wish to asK «ou, with respect to the tenure of lands in the townships of . Lower Canada, and particularly wit'i respect to the laws whicl) are held to be applicable to it; the Committee are informed tl- in theoninionof many persons, although the laud is held ia free and common Hoccagto, .ci, nevertheless all the French laws apply to it, both with renpect to doiver, alienation, descent, and givifig security for money borrowed ; what is Toiir opinion upon those subjects ? — I consider the Canada Tenures Act uotto have esta- blnhed a new law, but to have conHrmed the law vihic.i pre-existed for township lands. I consider the Cauada Tenures Act to be in short no more than it purports to be, namely a declaratory Act. My. opinion npon those subjects, even antecedently to the passing of the Canada Tenures Act was that English laws alone were legally applicable to the lands iofree and common soccage. Do you mean with all t e incidents ?— All t'e incidents relating to land in free and com- mon socciige in tlie townships of Lower Canada I have supposed to be the same as those wh^ch, derived from t'>e English la ', bave been always held applicable to landin free and common soccage, upon the establishment of other English colonies. Is that the general opinion entertained iu*he townships? — That I know to be the pre- vailing opinion in the townships, and I can state ttiat I b'ive understood it to be the opinion of gentlemen of the highest consideration in England at the time tliat the Act of 1791, giving a constitution to Lower Canada, was passed; I have understood also t'lat Mr. Grenviue sent out to Lower Canada a draft of t\ye Act of 179 1, upoa which draft it was distinctly stated by iiini in a marginal note, that, as under the Act of the Hth Georgs the Third (l774'),soccagelands were exempted from the French law8,they were considered asfallingandcr Englisi laws. In 1804! I believe the opinions of some oflhe Judges in Lower Canada were taken upon this subject, and asfar as I understand there was some differeoo* ofopioion among them upon that point ; but I always conceived, in common with almost *11 whom I have neard discuss the subject (except the Freocli Canadians) that the Act of the Ht.i Geo. 3, (unless one of its most important clauses was to be blotted out, and coo- lidered a perfect nullity and a dead letter,) intended to assure to the soccage lands, in other words. Satnvfl i>aU, Esquire. f- I 1 .: I hr iM ' . ■jiW'.i 2C4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Sumufl Gale, vrords, to the townships, the Enplish laws. Tlie clause miist be so interpreted, or it ronld hsqmre. ^^^,^, j,^ raeaniri!; at ail ; it is as tblloM's : " Provldeil always that notliinj;'' in this Act < on- "ca" I ia«r'^'^'"^'''" (nii"ie o; promise to do so ; it was probably meant as an act of favour to the French Canadians, l,e- cause t'ley formed the majority in the seigniories. The Englis'i constitute a greater pro- portionate majority in tlie townships than the French do in the seigniories. The fume claims to favour in the establishment of their la" », 'Ahich can arise from their ronstitnlin;: the majority, the English possess in the townships as the French do in tlie seiguiories, even it that wore all ; but the English (Jovernment and English Parliament are boinul, by repeated and solemn pledires and promises, to confirm English laws to the townships. Tho townships are entitled to Englisii laws as a right, and must have thtMn, unlessindeed it slm!! please the parent country, after doing more for one portion of the population than it pm- mised, not only to do less, but even to break its faith to the Er/lis i portion ; a coiir.ve of conduct which v. ill not tend to render the wild lands in the townships of Lo^"er Canada a fitter home for English emigrants, nor much accelerate the progress of improvement, nor consequently much advance the interest* or character of Great Britain. In point of fact, from the time of passing the Act of 1774 to the time of the C«nad;i Te- nures Act, was there any descent in tlie towns ips according to the law of England, or was not it uniformly according to the law of Canada ? — Have not heard of an v contest raised upon that point in a court of justice, but I hive known instances where the whole of th? township lands of the father ^^ere taken, by the eldest son, with the assent of the vlioleof the rest of the famil, they considering that to be tie law ; they would not have acquit's- ced iu their own exclusion had tliey supposed that they possessed claims which the law , -^ ~ would enforce. Were you present at t^ose agreements ? — I was not ; but I have understood so from the , diiFereiit branches of the family. Is it not even within the seigniories a common arrangement that the younger brandies of the family wsiTe their right under the law, and permit the eldest son to take it ? — 1 1 avo never known any thing of that kind, and it is not very consistent with the common I abits i ' ^ of mankind to give up the rights which they possess to property without couipeusation or equivalent. • ., Has there ever been a decision of a court of justice determining that the law of Englaml pi evailed within the townships, and not the Ciiiadian huv, between the yc.ir 1774, ami I the passing the Canada Tenures Act ? — I have heretofore stated that lam not aware oi' any legal contest having been raised and decided upon thoiie specific poiuts in a court of I juitie*. WL« I seiirnionos. tood so from the ON THE CIVIL OOVERNi\rENT OF CANADA. S65 -r 1 . v. tamuel Gale, Etquire. What has been the practioo with rcfjard to the descent of land held in free and common joccaye ? — With respoctto to wnshij> lands, I do not know an instance of division in cases ofiiitestiicv, where tlit-re has been a son, althoi»gh I cannot talco upon me to state that a^ division may not sometimes have been voluntarily made ; but I nave known iustuuues S6 June 1888. where the eldest son has taken all. If you have never known an instance of the Canadian law applying in cases of Intestacy, what law iias applied ? — I have known parties take accordinjr to the En<>-lish law, which I thiuk to be Canadian law for soccage lauds, as the French law i8 Canadian law for the sei- gniories. Do you mean tliat the g'eneml custom has been within the townships, that the eldest son has taken to the exclusion of all the rest of the family ? — I have never known an instance of the contrary, where wills have not been made ; but I believe that ]>cople gener.-illy make wills in tne townships if their property be of much value. Do you believe tliat state of things to be agreeable to the wishes of the people ? — No ; I believe that the majority of the people there would prefer to have a law making that distri- bution wliich tliey t.iemselves probablv from parental aiFection would mak«, that is an equal division ; I believe such to be their feeling, but at the same time they consider that the English law secures them from so many disarV -mtages in other particulars (besides its beinjf alawof whioli tliev know something, or c^n i am in their own language) that they would willingly receive it even with what tiiey consider an imperfection in the law of succession to an intestate's lands, because those who dislike that law of succession can obviate its effects by making a will whenever they please. When you Siiy that the other institutions connected with th« English tenure are ad- vantiigcous, can you confidently statfi it to be the wish of the inhabitants of the townships, that they should not have the French laws applicable to the land held in free and common soccagc, but that tl'cy should haA-e the principles of English law as they affect the several points of tlie security for money borrowed, the conveyance of land to persons purchasing it, and dower, and the law of descent ? — lara perfectly confident that almost all the English iuhnbitants who constitute nearly the whole of the population of the townships, desire to have the foundation of English law applicable to those lands, in like manner as the same foundation exists in other English colonies, and not to have those lands subject to the lia- ' bilities of the French law, that is to general mortgages, tacit mortgages of every description, the French dower, and a variety of incumbrances, many of whic)' there are no moans of ascertaining, and which operate against the freedom and safety of mutations and destroy confidence iu titles and securities, thereby obstruciiii^ commerce and improvement. Tiio townsliips wish, besides, for register otEces to record transfers and incumbrances upon lands, as iu Upper Canada, because, as the inhabitants of the townships have stilted in somo of their petitions to the Assembly, they cannot otherwise have certainty in transactions re- garding rcid estate, nor can parents be satisfied that they do not leave their c!)ildr«n a be- quest of li.w-sni<^s iust- ul of property ; and they liave furtier stated, that from want of re- gister office's their bndh are much depreciated in value, there being no security inthe title ; andthatthe rstalil'sh.nents of such offices would remedy that evil, and be attended with no expense to .)' rmaent, as the fees of office, as established in the sister province, would amply repay the register. If you are riglit in your interpretation of the law, that the English law does exist in the townsiiips, and if you arealso right as to the fact that the practice of tiie English law has jirevailed in the townsiiips, where is the gTievance, and how does it happen that those per- sons who desire the prevalence of the English law, should never have tried the question iu a court of justice ? — I have not stated the English law has been carried into general opera- •« tion in the township lands : oneof the diflicmties they complain of is, that they have not had courts among them to establish what bhuuld be practised, that tliey have been kept as it were out of the pale of the law : I have merely stated that in the townships real property upon the death of an intestate proprietor, in such ca.ses as have come to my knowledge an- tecedently to the passing of the Canada Tenures Act, has been taken, and that transfers are often made according to the English law. But I believe in some instances, wheiv lands in the . townships have been sold under sherifTs sales, the money arising from those sales has been distributed by orders of courts of justice as if the tacit and other mortgages applied to those lauds. It is true that in those instan<;es I have not known that tlie matter was contested in the courts of justice, upon the jfrouud that, under the English law, those moitga^es did not L t *i>piy ¥■ f^i > . if •v ' ■\'\ '•i ; 266 MimJTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE fUtmuel Gale, Esquire. 86 June, 1828 apply ; where the parties acquiesced, whetlier to avoid law expenses, or for other causes, they would have little ri^fht to find fault : but I know tlmt there wore numbers of por-ions prepared to contest on tiiat prouud, in the first case in which they were concerned, mid if ■> tlie decision had been against tliem in tlie Canadian courts, tlie> would have bxouglit an ap- ' peal to Enn^Iand. As to tbe crievances of the townships tliey are contained in the peti- tions before the Committee, which set forth not only the matters alluded to in my answer* of this day, but also the want of f.'l.'.'juate road laws, the want of representation and other evils. Then, in point of fact, as far as the courts of justice hav* decided any thinw upon t' csuh- ject, they have decided that the Canadian law prevailed ? — It cannot be said that the JiuU ^es have decided upon the subject, where the subject has not been contested ; they would of course heretofore in the courts in the seiji^niories apply the French law to the distribution of monies arising from sheriff's sales of lands, if it «^*re not urged that the lands produeii);r tlio monies were situate in the townships, and the application of the French law resisted on that ground. Is thei 8 any thing in that answer inconsistent with the statements you have previously made V — Not in the slightest degree, as I conceive. Can you undertake to say that you know what the actual state of the law was in the townships of Lower Canada previous to the passing of the Canada Tenures Act? — Bei'oro that period I have already stated there were two opinions upon the subject ; and there ne- ver have been courts in the to uiships having juii.sdiction over real jtroperty. The only courtshaving jurisdiction over real property in Lower Canada have been in the sei^'uio- ries. Were you distracted bet^veen two opinions ? — There were some that were di.straeted between the two opinions antecedently to the passing of the Canada Tenm-es Act, but others had but one opinion both before and since. What was the actual practice with respect to the law in the Townships ? — The practice where no courts exist to constitute a practice it may not be easy to state ; I suppose i; according to what might be expected from entertaining different opinions upon the ject ; those who supposed the Eijglish law prevailed there would probably endeavour to regulate their transactions in accordance with it, and those who supposed the French law prevailed there M'ould probablv act in conformity ta their own views. Can you state what was generally tbe conduct of individuals with respect to applying the law to their property in the townships in Lowjr Canada ? — It is probable, although I cannot assert it, that some may have divided property as they would have done^ »f the French law had existed, but ot;>ers have allowed it to descend as if the Enghsh law gre- vailed there. Are you able to state what was the prevailing habit in that resjiect ? — I am only enabled to «tatd, that I believe a vast majonty of the inhabitants of English origin have considered the English law to prevail there, and tliat prudent persons have governed themselves ac- cordingly. Why do you confine that to the inhabitants of English origin ?—^ecause the others no doubt are not desirous of seeing the English law prevtiil there. Yuu have just stated that tliere was a diversity of practice in thie townships witli respect t«» the descent of property, you stated before that you never knew an instance of property ii*Ting been equally distributed j how do you reconcile those statements? — I stateo not IIhI there had been, but that there might iiave been ; but I stato again that I know no in- MMice of the distribution of an intestate's real property iu the townships according to the French law. What opportunity have you of knowing what has been th«> practice in the townshijts with respect to property ? — I resided there some years, and suic*' that period I have, in the course of my practice, been applied to by a number of individuals who have asked mo wliat I considered to be the law in tlie townships, and I have told them, that 1 considered the English law to be in force in respect to real property ther«>. When you state m hat has been the practi on refer to those cases in whic on have yourself advised parties upon the Kiibject ?— Yes, in part ; but I know some similar iimtantes in which I did not give any advice. • • Do ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. ««7 the otliers no Do vou r(»f*liect thf docl riiie of th^ English la»v with respect to eutatis ever hiiviu^ . , r> i been acted u)>»»n lu tn • t»iwu>.i.iji8 r* — No, I oo not. Ewiuiru. Wasany siirh tSiMi'jf ev.»r h+'oril of, to -♦'.ir knowledj^e ? — I do aot rrooUect over Iiavlii'^,, ^x , _ ^ »eiMi a "ill thiit eirtu^uslw ' iiii entail in the tOH'uslii}^'!.. , iio Juiif, IH'ZS. Do you recollecr ever ii> ' ave heard of ar>y rase arisinjj and lirouifht l»eforo tJ^- courts ofjtutice in whicli that (]u^siioii, or au> t ink like that tion, has been dLscu^cd 't — I di) not recollect. Do you recollect any ir\-XM\ce \a which any point of En<,''lis'i law ap|(li:lish or French law prevailed upon those lands was made the subject of litigious coutrovers} , an I have very frequently .stoted. Do you recollect any instance in which it I. as been made the subject of amicable arbitral tion even ? — No, I do not. Then does not it follow from what you have sitid that all ^ ou hare said about the Eni^lish h\ pi-evailinnf in the to-mships is a mere matter of opinion, unsupported by any proof? — Tliere have been no courts in the townships to determine matters of real property, nor are anv likely to be established by the Seijjuorial Assembly. I h.ive stated what is thou<^lit and what is done ; I have stated instances. But whether all these amount to any proof or not, is not for me to doterniine. But I can add, that I have had in my possession hundreds of deeds whicli have transferred larg'e tracts under English forms, and I know tliose who hold thousands of acres under auch deeds ; nor is it my own opiuion merely Mchlhave given; I have heard similar opinions expressed by thousands. Tlie full proof can only be obtained from the Ul'^8 themselves v»'hich relate to the subject ; and if tst'v have been of doubtful import, th'i uncertainty, I take it, has been removed by the Teuures Act, of whi<'h the township desire the continuance. In cases where yon h.ive given it as your opinion that tlie English law prevailed, and whore your opinion h^is been acted upon, have you known an) attempt to reverse tliut opinion 'f — No, jiot that I recollect. It has Iteen stated to the Coramittei' that the French tenure of /ranc aleu roturicr is priicti(!a!ly the same as tlie tenure of free and common soccage ; is that joiu" opinion ? — It uould be by no means practically the same, supposing the French tenure off rune ul>u to be subject to the encumbrances and liabihties sivnctioned by the French hiw, and the Eii^'lisli tenure of free and common soccage to be subject onl\ to those established under Euf.rii,s]i lau's. Will you explain how those liabilities affect t' e question ? — The French tenure would ho Miliject to the iial)iiities of French law, such as gcuieral and tacit moitgages ov hi/potluijUfs, pdiiliar marriage rights of cc»//twiM««?<^e consistent with the security of the mortgage, and what is the operation or nature of the niortirage ? — The mere division of laud under 1 he French law among children is not iU" ronsistent wirh the scturity of a mortgage under that law, because t''e creditor's right would extend to eac i and "very portion ; that right <'ould only he defeated by claims •uperior in privilege, or, if of the same nature, prior in date. V» hat, luiWi'ver, the Eii- I'lish in Lower Canada commonly know and call by t .e nant« of a mortgaiife is rather the ^)othcr-i oftheKoinun or civil law, and the French stvle it nu hj^jwthi'r/ue. It estab- iNhesaright to he paid out of the real estate the sum stipulated or due, for which pnp-> ]! 'S'' all Luids may he brought to sheriff's sale. It is the privih>/e of notaries and certain orticiiu chiracters, that whatever acts are passed before them, (supposiMg these acts tf' he f'pn 110 more than a simple acknowledgment of a debt, or an engagement to bo security,) ^'ill produce a mortgage ov hijpD'Iicquc upon all the real property of t ha obligor; nor is ^^Hs itijputheque coi: lined to the real property whic i the obligor possesses in the district where the notary officiates, hut extends to all the real property of the obligor in other .ii'iisdiotioius and districts as far as the French tenures extend ; nor is this mortgage con» ''•'I'd to the property waich the obligor possesses at the tiii.e of piisein^' the Act, but it Httuhes .«• .'.? m m I I 1 JB. ? f ! If d6f MINUTBi OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE w Samuel Gale, Esquire. 96 June 1838. **SC'' -^^,'^ r^^^- ^S*"**^*.^; attaches to all th<» real estate which he may afterwards acquire in the French tonuret, and remains attached to aU and every portion of the property during many years, even though it should have passed into the hands of bond Jide purchasers. Real property, by merely coming inta the hands of those who are debtors under Acts passed before such otecial chara<;tors, althougli it may be immediately transferred to others, is enthralled, and stands charged with all such debts, foj^whicli it will remain liable for years, or until payment, into whatever other hands "wltnay pass, As acts passed before iiotarie* are to be paid l,- iotn, by preference, according to the order of their dates, creditors are alway desirous to have them so passed, because althougli they have no means of knowingf by how many pre^itius creditors they have been auticipaied, they wish to avoid beiii^ anticipated by subsequent creditors. The want of information in the generality of the people also compels them 1 o have recourse to notaries. Almost all the legjil instruments ia seignorial Canada are therefore passed before notaries. The giving bail before a Judge, the becoming tutor or curator, the being executor to a friend, and various other matters, produce also tacit and general mortgages ; and if a notarial mbrtgage - or hypotliique be given only ou a particular piece of land iu tiie seignories, t'r;e law nevertheless makes this also a general mortgage, sind extends it over every county, district and jUrisdictioa throughout the French tenures of Lower Canada; and from all these causes the property of imraense numbers is tlierefore liable, in a manner of which themselves have often uo idea. Some of the consequences of sucli a state of things may not be difficult to be im- agined, although it could be hardly possible to state thens all. I may suppose a case: A. B. C. & D., like most others in Lower Canada, may have respectively passed notarial acts, or otherwise constituted general and tacit raovt^ages or hypotheques in any of the yarious modes in which V as. can be effected. A. sells a farm to B. ; the farm is liable for years to be brought to sheriff" 's sale, not only for tlie hypotliecary or mortgage-claims cpnstituted by A, but also for those constituted by B. B. sells the farm in a i^yf months toC, and it becomes further liable to tlie hypothecary claims against C, C. in a year or two sells the farm to D. The farm has gone on with increasing burthens, and is flow charged with all the claims against A. B. C. & D., when perhaps a British emigrant purchases, pays for it, and after increasing its value by the outlay of money and labour, IS called upon to pay some of the claims, and in consequence abandons the property. The case supposed, is not fancy, but fact. I have known even a lawyer purchase prop«rty, which,* after mal-«f ^fiiftife tacit and general mortgages, and should prefer the English laws, ■which, whatever may be their imperfections, and they are not denied, have nevertheless carried colonies forward in wealth and improvement with a rapidity unexampled under other institutions. Is is possible that any system of registry could make manifest every security of this desciiptioD, ,.sa as to enable a lender or a purchaser to know what encumbrances exist on thelaild?— I s'loutd consider it extremely difficult, if not impossible, (unless some chan- ges be made in the laws wliich now exist in the seigniories, wliereby almost every act passed before a notary carries a general mortgage, Kke a judgment of court in Canada, without specification of property, and whereby various other acts passed before other public functionaries constitute similar tacit and general mortgages,) to establish for the , seignories a system of registry sufficient to enable persons to know whetlker they are se- . pure or not in making purchases, or in lending money on mortgage. The objections made by many French Canadians to the establisliment of registries in the seignories is, that they could not be rendered efficient without producing alterations in their French laws. ]Now this is an objection which cannot hold in the toviiiships if the Enghsh laws ^lone affect; real property there ; audthisisone among other reasons why the inhabitauti OJr THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 969 of the townships, aud all who desire the improvoment of the country, are so anxious that the lands in the townships should only be suhject to Enjflish liabilities, because then regis- Simuel Gale, ten may be established, as tlioy ai-e establislied in Upper Canada, without interteriug with *^" _ the French la« 8 in the scignories, whicli the Canadian leaders wish to maiutaiu aud ex-'TTT .g^. tend; besides, if any portions of the iEnglish law should occasion inconvcuieucos in their operation, fears are not entertained that the seiguorial legislators would be withheld by any fondness for such laws from altering them when desired. lu what tbrm is security given for money borrowed on land in Upper Canada ? — It is ^nted by a mortgage of a description similar to the Englisli mortgage, but shorter, which setsforth the speciHc property, aud this mortgage is registered. There are rejjisfei's, I believe, in each of tlie counties. These matters are there attended with no difficulty, although the inhabitants are more scattered than they are in Lower Canada. Enregistra- tion in Upper Canada gives publicity to every deed or encumbrance on land, and a prior instrument, not registered, would not affect a subsequent one which is registered ; so that a prudent man in Upper Canada can always ascertain whether he is secure, which iu Lower Canada he cannot do. Can you say, of your own knowledge, whether persons who have accumulated money in tlmt country are more willing to lend on mortgage on the security that exists in Upper Canada than that which exists in Lower Canada ? — I do not reside in Upper Car^ada; but I should take it for granted that they must be more willing to lend where they can ascer- tain their security than where they cannot. Will you be goodenouo;h to explain why, in your opinion, the law of registry is more easily ; nd more effectually applied to lands held in Upper Canada than to those held upon the French tenure iu Lower Canada V — Because in Upper Canada there is no such doctrine •f general mortgages affecting property acquired and to be acquired without specification. The r tarial or official mortgage, or htfpotheque, is not known there. The mortgages there .»re sjMciel, and they may be drawn and passed before any persons. Property not described IS not bouqd ; and tlic registry of the land described, which is what gives effect to tiie mortgage, must take place in the county where the land is situate, to wliich registry all may have access. Cannot you register a general mortgage as well as a particular or special one — must not tliere be an act done in order to create a general mortgaj^e as well as a special one ? — There must of course be an act before a notary, or some official act, in order to effect a mort- gage in the seignories of Lower Canada; but almost every notarial act dees constitute a general mortgage or %j7o/Ae^/£ upon the whole property which the person has or may atturwards acquire in all the French tenures, throughout every district and count) in the province. These acts remain with the notary, and he is legally bound to keep them secret : the lawin Lower Canada requiring those things to be concealed which for the interest and safet; of the community the laws of many other countries have required to be made public. Supposing this consequence to follow from the institution of a registry, that every act of that kind would be bad unless it were regisvered, would not that cure the evil? — I should conceive that the evil could not be cured without abolishing general mortgages or hypotheqites, and rendering all mortgages special, and confining them to the particulair lauds they described. But it might be effectually cured if that were done, ana registers established. Why do you think so ?-r-It seems evident that mortgages or ht/pothegues of the number and description which have been stated must destroy the beneficial effects of registers, or that registers must abolish the principles of such mortgages. The laud which is not men- tioned m the nu)rtgage cannot be specified in tlie register. The land which is not yet ' acquired by the debtor cannot be mentioned in the register. Yen are aware tliat ajudgment, or any security of ttiat kind, affects not only the property that a man has in presenti, but the property th&t he acquires infuturo iu this country ?■— I am not aware that ajudgment for a sum of money would in this country affect and enable to be brought to sale, like an hypotheque, all the land belonging, or which might after- wards belong to the debtor. Does not the whole of the difficulty, a« you state it, arise from the troubls and inconTO* pieno* -*^" M \- >*i "'IMH'' MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECl COMMITTliE Samiii'l %6 Ju. •.- ^«^f» nienceofre^sterinw a gfreat mimbor of transactions ?— By no means. Tliat would doulit- •■''• less be an inconvenience, but thenriacipul utility of re^flsters must dop«'iid upon the pro- „-^ 'perty being' desijfuated or specilieu. lias any bill for establishinif a re^fistry ever passed the Assembly of Lower Canada ?— No. Did any bill upon that subject jyro from the Upper House to the Lower ?— Yes ; I have brou^fht a copy of such a bill passed in the Legislative Council before thi' pa^s- irin^ofthe Canada 'tenures Act, and wherein care wis taken that all mortgai,'es hliould be special'. Can you state what form of secunty is f>'iven in Upper Canada when money is borroWfjd upon land .^ — It is substantially like the English mortgage, but shorter,^ as I Lav-} aUwidy stated. What may be the expense of it ?— I suppose it may cost about 11.; but I dare say (fio , oxpense may depend a {food deal upon the person who is employed. One iudividiiul may probably bo got to draw an instrument of that kind for half the sura whicli aiiolhcr would cliai'ge. Do you happen to know what form of security is given in the United States? — I know that they in some measure resemble the English, only they are much shorter, becansc all unnecessary repetitions and prolixits are avoided. You have spoken of the English law as applicable to free and common soecago lamls, ' according to your notion, pi'cvailing in tlie townships; has tliere 'been any such thiii<^ ;^ a court of English equity established there to modify the strict severity of that law ': — No court at all, except the inferior of the district of Saint Francis roccnth established, wlilili has only a trilling jurisdiction in personal causes. Is there any court of English equity in either Canada ? — Yes, I have understood ilia* there is one in Upper Canada. V\'hat is the constitution of it ? — It was only established shortly before I left Canada, as I have heard, and I know not its constitution. Do you conceive that wherever the English law prevails, as applicable to real proporly, it is almost iudisjieusably necessary that there sliould be a court of equit* ? — I conceive that unless there be some modilication of the law, it might become nccessarv t jit there should be a court of equity; l)ut it was taken for granted, that after the English !j,w was declared all other necessary coucouiitauts would be established in due time. If you wish to get possession of an estate in the towusliips, what form of action would you adopt ; is tiiere any court in u'liii;h you could bring an action of ejectment ? — There are no courts at present con^Htuted lb tlie to • iisiiips. . Then how can the English law be said to prevail ? — I looked upon the ri'rht to tli« English law, and its being put into actual practical operation, as being t«o different things ? — I never said that the English law had been renaer«d efficient in the townships. I should state, as my opinion, that the English hnv was, as near as might be, the law of the Hudson's Bay territories ; yet I doubt whether it has ever been carried into practical operation there. Supposing that previous to tlie. passing of the Canada Tenures Act you had had to advise unon a .marriage contract, would you have guarded against the iru^idents that •would follow from tiie French law, or ijgainst t e incidents that would follow from theEiw glish law ? — I would have endeavoured to have fr.amed it so as to liave <>uarded against the incidents of either that it was «ished to guard aa'aiopt ; but to many the incidents of the English law without contracts would not be so un(p4ie.«ant »iti respect to marriage, because they are by no means so burtlituisome ast ose of the Frmch law : tud they do uot interfere so greatly with the right of the lln^•band tic the disposal ot his pro j«rty, " , Then you would havfi framed.the contract of marriage upon thi' notion that the Freiuh law was the prevailing? 'aw, tlie effects of wi>K-h wore to be guarded as'.unsT ? — I sliould un- doubtedly have end»iavoureretatio!i with regard to the provisions of r, wiurh aiig't »«f disagTeeablc to the parties. Is there any d«)ubt that the Ft^twii la- implies to personal property and contracts ?— I have mentioned that l have ;to?«rd a dife t eac -e of opinion cx|)ressed on tlie •uljecf, ;is to what ou^ht to appl* ; b«t if lam jwkei4 mr own ouiuion, 1 believe that the Freiieli law, with regard to (.♦•rsonal pioptTt. and contracts, does apply, exorpt t at t' ♦• niero employment of mi officinl character, »uch as a notary, t» pass the contracts, wi»Hid not prodiue ^ ndcrstood ilia* 't Canada, as I «"•'•' • V ON Tim CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA 171 nroiliice a raortg'nffo or hypotMque upon soccnge lands, ns it would upon scI^norUl Samuel Qnte laiuls. ^ ^ Evquirc. Do voii happen to know upon what clause in any Act that difference of opinion rests ?,- , It is, t supjose, upon the same clause in the Act of the 14-th of Geo. f, bofoi'*! cited, S6 Juuv, Uittt. »u(l upon tiie circumstance of the English law having been considered antecedently the hiw of the country. It was supposed tbata caange was introduced for apart of the coun- tiy only, and that that part dia not include tlie socciige lands. Ill a marriage settlement whiclt included the softleracnt of land held in free and common socca^^c, in wnat manner do you think that settlement would most conveniently and most properly be drawn in Lower Canada, supposing the English law is held to apply to such Lad ? — I should presume that the English forms of settlement would be adopted, or so mud) of tsem as might be deemed advisable. Could they be simplified ? — Possibly (hey could be simplified, or reduced in prolixity. I / have seen deeds of moderate compass transferring laud according to tlie English form ; I have seen numbers passed for lOs. ea£h. Siipposidg the Canada Tenures Act to be in full force, and that a person about to marry, hs'wv^ possessed of real propefty in the townships, were to call upon you as a professional man to prepare a marriage settlement, and that he stated he wished to liave a life-estate for himself, and to have his property secured for his eldest sou, and so on, would you create in thatsettlementancstate-tail, ttith all its incidents, with remainder over ? — lam notprepared to answer that question, as my professional pursuits have been almost wholly lijuited to French civil law. Before I attempted to draw aniustrumeni of that description, I should have to consult authorities. tSiipposing that, according to the English law, the proper course would be to create an estate-tail, by giving t'.e life-estate to the iirst son and liis issue, and upon failure of his is- sue to the second son and his issue, would you- adopt that practice, and create an estate- tail ? — 1 might perhaps do so ; but I am not prepared to answer. Arc you aware that by doing that you would bind up the property for ever, unless there were some court in M'hich that entail could be barred by fine and recovery ? — As I have said, I sliould have t insulted authorities, and have endeavoured to avoid inconveniences, Ii I liad felt myself sufficiently aware of consequences, such consideration and consultation would have been uiniecessary. Siij)j)osing a proposition was made to you to make such a marriage settlement as has Iieeu referred to, would you or would you not adopt that mode by which the property should be bound up for ever, or would you not endeavour to create some other mode of securing that olyect, without binding the property for ever ? — I should endeavour to avoid what-, evert' e parties might consider an inconvenience that would be likely to arise under the Eiiijlish law. If you found that the French law afforded an opportunity of doing it without inconve? iiience, would not you in that particular insmnce rather adopt that than tlie English law ?— . I sliould very readily adopt the forms of the French law, as often as I considered theiu more convenient, and equally valid. Can you say whether it would not be very easy to make a settlement according to the Fieiich law, witliout incurring that difficulty ? — I thiuk it could easily be done. When you hnve used the word prevail in your evidence, have you used it in the sense of, lictually prevail, or legally prevail ? — I have commonly meant legally prevail. In your former examination you said that tlie mode you recommended to convey pro-* pcrty in the townships was by lease and release 'f — Yes. What was the reason of your adopting that least convenient form of conveyance ? — It Was coiisidei'ed necessary that there should be a tradition, or as it is called in the English law, livery of seisin under some modes of conveyance ; whereas the lease and release were considered' to render that unnecessary, the lease giving the possession, and the release the property. Then you thought that all the niceties and tiic technicalities of the English law must, as a matter of course, be transferred to Canada? — No, I did not think they all must, because tlio English laws, when they are introduced into any of tlie English colonies, are consider- ed to he introduced in so far only as they are applicable to the state of the country. The English criminal laws are introduced by statute into Lower Canada j yet there are many parti ■T , i ff.;j! ..'■ft :* !•* * !•' !■ i'*' f 178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ^ . - . parts of those not considered app1i<;ablo. The cutting a tree or a saplinjif would hardly Ih> E«mire? '' C0D»'osed ? — At Quebec. Has there been any attempt in Canada to establish turnpike-roads ? — There liave been ^ anuml)er'of petitions for turnpike-roads within the last 18 years, vkhich have been all uni- formly rejected ; and the state of the roads in some instances, even very near the cities, in extremely bad, and sometimes dangerous. Where are tiie roads situated tiiat it was wished to establish turnpikes upon ? — Near towns, or in places where there was a great deal of travelling. Have those bills or applications been rejected in the Lower House ?-^They hare, as I understand. Can you inform the Committee what were the grounds generally pleaded for their re- jection ?-^The Canadian inhabitants of the country do not like them, and they consider them a species ef taxation. And they would rather be without the road than have that taxation ? — Yes, I have known a number of carriages broken down from the badness of the roads even in the vici- nity of the towns. The English inhabitants were the general petitioners for tiu-npikos, and they would have subscribed money for that purpose. Do you know anything of the law of descent to landed property in Upper Canada?— The law of descent in Upper Canada, I believe, is the English law of primogeniture ; but ] believe the mass of English inhabitants there v^ould desire t^at law to be altered. Is there not some local statute which has modified that law ? — A local statute has either been passed, or has been attempted to be passed, but I canuotsay which. Is it, or not, the prevailinw- opinion in both provinces that the law of primogeniture is not suited to those colonies r — I believe that the inhaltitants in general would prefer a law making an equal division, whicli would save them the trouble of making a will. Do you think that the inhabitants of Upper and Lower Canada woiild not be perfectly satisfied with having it in their power to distribute their property as they please by will ?— They possess that power already, but they would prefer that without the trouble of making a wiH the law should distribute it as they wish. i Does it suggest itself to you as a possible mode ofremedyingthe inconveniences arising out of the present division and distinction of thetwoprovincesof Upper and Lower Canada,that Montreal and the district immediately around it should be transferred to Upper Canada, thereby giving Upper Canada the benefit of a sea-nort, and. the consequent power cf regula- ting the duties upon her imports ? — There is no doubt that a sea-port would be higlily ad- vantageous to Upper Canada ; and I think thatprovince will not be satisfied until it has a i learportt unlesa tbere be i( union of the two provinces. *' Mi'.| l.'l .■11! ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA* t73 Mr. James Chmtts Grant, u;^ain called in ; and Exuiuimed. Mr. ■J. C. Grant. WllEi^ you were last Itoforo the ("'oinmitton you stated that you had ronson to believe SQJunelSiiS. fhiit 8')ine Act had passed the lieffislaturc ofU|)j)er Canada, alterinjr tli<» law of prinioj^eni- ture, have you since obtained ai.y iidbrniatiou iij>on Tliat subject ? — I have made inquiry u<)OU ih* Nuhjcot, aiul fouail lliut a'Hiou^h a hill to that eii'eut was introduced into tho House of Asserablv more than once it never became a law. U there any thinir that to state to t e Conmiittee in addition to your former evidence V — i am desironsof comniunicatinsr t«» t le Committee two Roman Catholic chapels and one cliuvch, four Episcopal Churches, viz. one at Sandwich, one at ChatUam, one at Amherst- l)i»ig', and another at Cole' ester ; the service at these iUiurclies is vc^nilar, with the excep- tion of Coldiester, where it is occassional; the number of attendants at Chatham is from 20 to .'JO, and at Amherstbunrhand Chatham 50 to (JO. 'ihere are the Episcopal Chiu'ches ill t ic district of Niajjara. Tiie number of attendants at the cbunli in tliotown of Nia;(ara (Iocs not exceed 90, tho averaj^c nnmlx'r at Qiieens^on and Cl»ij»p,iwa, ami the other cnrches, is bnt-lS ; the Episcopal Churches at Queenston and >St. Catlierine's were orif>i- niillv built by Presbyterians, who by some unjnstiHalde means (it is said) were deprived of t ieiiii. The Presbyterian couifre^aii(niat St. Catherine's are abtint to build anotlier. The names of the clerpfymen oftlie Scottish Secession haviiiircotijLfreijatioiis in t c district of Bathurst are Mr. Boll, at Pert >, Mr. Biiclianan, at Beckwith, and Mr. Gemmil, at La- nark. A church has been built at T.aniir'u for a cler/jfyman oftlie Cluirch of Scotland. Tliere are o90 Presbyterian communicants in Perth, Dalhoiisie and Beck'^itl'. We have only received rettlrns from four to nships out of 17 in this district, viz. Druramond, B?ckw'th and Diilhousie,whith contain n Presbyterian population of 2,903. At Byto.»u a lot of land lias been allotted for a Scottish ( h irch and uiinister's hous;^, and where a con^ p'U^ration of not less than 300 could be formed at present. There are two Episcopal (Ihnrclies in the distri<'t, one at Perth, the other at Tlichmond ; the number of communi- cants at the tbrnlci (^in tiie town of Perth) is nbout '^0, and at the latter about 10; but the mission of each, I believe, embraces several townships. Presbyterian C'nirches are re- quired in every Towns ip. There is only one t-er^^yman within the district of (tore in com- maiiicn wit i the ( 'hm'ch of S<-otland ; alton^ellier there are eiolit con'se townships ttie numher of souls attached to thit Presbyterian Church exceeds '1,300. There are several other to -nships in this district from which no returns htive been ob- tiiaed. In the town oftjuelpli tii;'re are u[)ward.s of 100 families, and several more in tho «ijoinin;r township of Aramo:sa attached to the Presbterian (Jhurch. In Streetville the number of Presbyterians exceeds 300 heads of families, representing 1,2G3 souls. The cluirch at Aucaster, which Dr. Strachan describes in his chart as bein{>;" episcopal, in which he states the servii-e of the tjhurch ofEnjrland is ren-ularlv performed, is a free Protestant Church, and the oul, service reyulaily performed in it is by Mr. Sheed, a Scotch Presby- terian minister. Tlie churc i in Barton Has built conjointly by tie Presbyterians and Episcopalians in the neij^hbourhood, and is open to the cierj^ymen of either denomination. In Woolwich there never was a church, nor service of any denomination. There is not an Episcopal Church at Dundas, nor has service of the Church of Euj>laudbeen perform- ed there for the last four or five years. In tho Indian villaj^e on the river Ouse there is an Episcopal Chnrch, which in tiu^t is the oijly one of that denomination in the district. This exhibits a state of thinn^sdiiferent from the Doctor's representation. Although the Presbj terians in the Newcastle district exceed 2,000, there is not a ckrery-. f' i M 2 mai) ,. ^ n\ m MINUTES OF EVIDENCB BEFORE iELECT COMMITTEE J. -Mr. C. Grnnt. owinjf has boon furnishod jw oxIiil>itinj»' mi ny^roffatc > Mishipn of Hopo, ilaidimiiud, Rnmat;'), IVrcv imd 301 MfH ■ jinv |tai in till' M ';■"'■<' £ man of that church within it. Thn folio account of the roligiouN NortH in tho to ' nsliij)i Murray : 225 ProsltytorianH, \'Mi F.;ii.<4co|Kihans, 57 Uoman ("utholios, 301 MfH> istrict, principally lieads of families, representinjj a Presbytc^rian population of 804 soiik The total ]iopiilation iu the township of Finch, in the eastern district, is 222, of whicli 210 aro Presbyterians. No answers have been received from tho London, Home, or Ottawa districts. There has never been any clorjrvman of t'e Church of Scotland in tlie London or Home districts, althou'jfh it is believed that many of the inliabitantsareof the Presbyterian faith. In Lower Cati;idaal)oiitfive sixths of the pop\ilution is Roman Cat' olic. At Cotean dn Lac tho Presbyterian population exceeds 400 souls ; there are vcr> few (if any) niemherS of the Clmrch of Euj^land, or Dissenters, in that vicinity. The township of Grenvillo, in the district of Montreal, contains 600 souls attacl.ed to the discipline and government of the Church of Scotland, about 120 Episcopalians, 100 Roman Catholics, and a few fami' lies of other denominations. In the townships of Lochabar and Bnckinjfham, on the north bank of the river Ottawa, the popnUition is corapose'Jl as follows : Cliurch of Enjifland 10 persons, ('hurch of Scot- land, 250, (Jhurch of Rome, 30, and otiier denominations, 20. There is not a Presby- terian Church or clerg-yman within any of those townships. The inhabitants are extremely desirous of havinnf clernfvnaon of tho Church of Scotland. In the parish of St. Therese (a French Canadian settlement), there are 97 individuals, principally heads of families, .ittached to the church of Scotland, a Presbyterian church las teen built by voluntary (!ontributions, in which service is rejjfularlv peribrmed by a minister ©f tlie Scottish Secession, who also officiates occasionally at St. iBustache and New Glas- gow, at the request of the Presbyterians in t'ose places ; there are about 40 Prcsbyteriaus Ht St. Eustac 0. New Glasjcow, a settlement which las been formed within the last six years, contains as many Presbyterians as S*^. Therese and St. Eustaclie together. There is anotlier PresbytcriansettleraentatPaisley, a 1 joining New Glasgow. The persons within tlies(> settlements, professing to belong to the Church of England; constitute about a twelfth ])ait of the Protestant population. No answers have been received from St. Andrews, but our petition is signed by 147 heads of families resident there, representing 819 souls of the I resbyterian faith. The following is the census of the township of Rawdon, (a setllement recently formedj 92 Presbyterian families, 72 Roman Catholic, and 20 Episcopalian. Tlure is a minister of the Church of England established in this township. Tiie village and neigiibonrhood of La Chine contains about 2.39 Presbyteiians and 70 Episcopalians. From the village of La- prairie and the surrounding country the petition has received the signatures of 163 heads of families representing 600 souls.^ There is a Scotch settlement at St. Peter's, and au- ot her about 16 miles from Laprairie, chiefly composed of Scottish Presb)rteria«s. From , the seigniory of Beauhamois the petition before tne Committee has been signed by 188 individujU.a, principally Scotch, representing a population of 791. In the settlements of 'North and Sout'i George Town, and jKirtof William's Town, there is a population of SCO Presby teruins of the churth of Scotland. A Presbyterian church has been erected at South ■' Geori}» -'-S ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. «T4 fleor>aux>Noix, I ave alwo signed the petition. 86 June, ISS8. There are comparatively few Protestants in the district of Tiiree Rivers. It is believed that the Prenbyterians in tlie town of Three ti i versand at Nicolet are at least equal in number to the EpiNcopaliaus, notwithgtauding^ that a minister of the Church of En(|[land has officiated ftt the former place since the cession of the country. There is an Episcopalian church at Riviere du Loup, in w.iich sefvici' is regularly performed by a minister of the Church of Eu<;laud ; the total Protestant population within the parish consists of three Episcopalian Slid twenty Presbyterian funiilies. There is another Protestant settlement on the bor- durs of Lake Musquinoiij^e, computed at 30 families, tho majority of whom are Presby> terians ; and it is supposed tliat that denomination is also the most numerous in the tuwuships in this district. From some of the Protestant settlements in the district of Quebec the followinjjp infer' mation lias been collected : — At I^ke Beauport there are f)2 persons, at St. Patrick 45, and at Valcartier 100, who profess to be Presbyterians in communion with the Church of Scotland} the seiffniory of St. Giles contains 110 Presbyterians of the Church of Scot^ land and 1i3 Episcopalians; iu the township of Leeds there are 70 persons who would pre* for the ministrations of a cler<>:yinHn of the Churoh of Scotland, and five families ofthe Church of Enjfland ; the township of Inverness contains between 50 and 60 Presby^ % terians and 15 Episcopalians ; in the township of Frampton there are 100 Presbyterians ; at St. Charles Belle Alliance settlement, as well as in tlie seignioiy of Metis, there are few inhabitants who do not profess to be Presbyterians. No answers have been received from the district of Gasp^ ; but I am warranted in statingr, upon the authority of the Crown ag^ent, that the great majority of the people are Presbyterians. None ofthe townships or settlements I have named arc provided with clergymen except those particularly mentioned. The Presbyterian inhabitants are all extremely desirous of liavin<( ministers and teachers of their own persuasion. The Presbiiteriau congrenrjition in the city of Montreal, under the chargfc of a minister in connection with a jtresbytery in New York, consists of between 600 and 700 persons, wiiile tlie two others, under the niinistration of cler. 23 WEST MAIN STRUT WfBSTIR.N.Y. 14SM (716)«72-4S03 '^°^ \ ■ ^ .*^> t76 MLNLTES 01- l.VIDrNCE BEFOHE SELECT COMMITTEU A III Mi)ii(roiil, for 12 j-currt, Up to 31 December Iftiiil. m ' Murriiyjes Baptih'ins FuiienilH E]>iscn]mtiai)s : hi "■■; 1 :4 ■ > ■«^ it:r ^^■ 377 Marriaires FuiuM'alu lVcsb>terians : 73/) IH4 Tli»'«15iproportloii lietHftMi fiinorals niul baptisnis, maybe accoTinfed for fnmi the mi:a. bers of pt-isoiis bplun;i;ii'.;r to the militar , \\ lio iJifd in the liospital*, of tiickiu'iiis aud Wyini-ju durin;r tlie bite war. At the town of Iviiipi-ston, in t e province of Upper Cannda, inhere an Episcopal iriuls- ter lias resided Kiiire tlie peace I 7KI, a Pre-ibyteriaii miiii.Ntoi- ben';r«iii.!; partiiuilars nre not «illcrcd as cx]iibitinn profe:vnR, some of the French ('Aniidian Kettlcinenti, pnd in few »if the to'vns ips n.»ai" the Sf. L:i.\reuce, w! ere settlements lave in.mi. (*mu- meirced, v l( bout coniprisin;^ that in the towns ;ips of Lower Cniiada beyond the Frcne'i (^inadian Hi'tflcnKMiis iii t!tp si'i;,>-neiiries on t e south side of the St. Lawrence, niariv (>t' whidi have beca loitij settled, i.-;d contain a Protestant population estimated at flfyoo HOiils ; and, considerin;" tliat t osefo'.vnsliii)s and ot er iVotestaut settlements in Lower Canada, as well as the otiier inlialdted parts of the Upp«r l*rovince, (.Vum <>hich no re- turns Imvi* as yet been received,) have been peoj)led by persons vho li.ive eiui^>T'i'<'J fi'"i'i Scotland, Ireland, and t e L'nited States of America, it may be infeired tliat lliere also Presbyteriat'.s be.ir the same rdati'-e proportion to Episcopalians. The ijreat sources •'♦' emi^ruf ion to Canada arc Scotland and Iceland, and tlicre can be little or no doiiiat'at anion"' the iw w settl.-rs the numbers oft le (I urc.'i of l''n»l:i:id will continue to benr l«"t H small proportion to t' e iinnriiers of the (! iirf!i of Scotland. That more ample infor- mation iias not yet been received must be ascribed tothrt causes I hare already mentioned, and t'C sliort interval of iinu' emjdoycd in cidlectinjif it. The Church < '" England b;is nt all times possessed t e means of extendin:? herself by increasinif the number of her cler;.'^-, are sfippoi fed as mi. > Society for Propng-atiny the (Jospel in forei;>n Parts, in aid of which aii'iu',! jfrinU have been mad.; by flie Parliament of (ireat Britain. On the ot er hand, the ChuTls of Scotland ( as been li'rt toconleiid, uusupjiorted, a.jainst every dilJiculty ; and altIion:<:h afov conivrc^futlons in tiie lar.rc (omh and in some of the old and extensive Si'ttlenieuts have, fy means of voluntary contributions, procured for themselves the services of cler^jfyraen of their own peis'.iiision, in •;enejal the in abit.Mtts are too poor to sujiport cler^rymen, bavlnfj to sftni^yle hnr! for t eir own maintenance, i'hey cannot have a rejjular minister of their own, as no Presbytery « ill ordain one unless some permanent provision is made for him. Under suelv circumstances, it mil' iuive happened t'lat sonic individ.ials educated in t c C :urch of Scotland have joined the Church of F.iiirland in those townshijw and settlements here establisliments have beeit formed by that elnneh, but their nnijibei-s are very inconsiderable; and even where such cstablislimeais have been formed the Prrsbyteri.uis, accutomed and aitatheself to vouch for the accuracy of the forepoinjf stfltcments, but considering f'e soiu'ces from vhich the information has bec:i d«rivcd, I believo il to \ ■'> ON THE Civil. OOVERN.VIKNT OF CANADA. ill ho Chs far M It oxteods) as coiTiH-t lu could lie obtniuod without eiiuinerution under pul)- lic aiifliorily. , HWl it my duty to briiij'' nnd«»r f o consideration of tbo ry'^^ j t e i-lt;rorH(iih;f. Piy a provincial stafut«», jtaAHod in tlio J^^tli y«>arof tiio n>i<,ni of lii^ late Majesty, cterjjy- mcii of liie Church of Scotland, t oj:;jfh rc>>,ulurly ordaitu'd I'v a iVcsb.tcry iu Scothuid aid caJIodto a conjfro^fittiou in l'j)|n'r Canada, an- Itound, bcfon; tln'v can Kultuunizc nuir- ria;j«, to apply to th« court of Quarter ycr^sions for a license, and to Nubuiit to forms ex- tro:'.)el< ^ratiu<; to their feeliu^rM, Constituted as the Le^Hslature of Upper ('anadais at nre!'"»t, ir in not expected that a repeal of that Act can Ik' obtained, and it i« oul^ to th«J luij'crial I'ai'liatncnt tliat the petitioncrN ran look for redrcsH. None of t'e Presbyterian chnndies in Lower Canada are incorporated, nor arc there any iu Upper Canada, to t!;e bcftnf my belief, Jilniugh ap|tlicationi« have beeu frequently tuiiib' to the Troviiicial (Tovernment furtliat purpose. Tlio cleri(\ of the Church of Scotland have iu both provinces beeu exdiuled from any jhare iti the instruction of youth. \Vithin every district of U^pper Canada there is a jfrainniar-school, to eac'i of the teachers of <* hich a salary of lOOl. is paid out of the funds of the province. T i.e furtlier sum of 2,oOUl. is H])propriated for the euoouraifement of comniuu scV.ools.' In Lower Canada all the schools ostnl'list.cd by the authority of Oovernmcnt are under t e direction of a corporation, styled " Tii»» Koyal lu.stitution fur t.e Advancement of Learniiiosed oftlie Protestant bishop, clerjjy, and niembers of the Eiiiscopalian cliurch, one or t^o Presbyterian, and three Homau Catiolic members. The Komuu Catholic clergy havin;>- no share iu t!ie luimination of titc masters to, or any rijjht of su- |ierii»tendt'nco over these schools, t-ave withlieid their counten;uj(;e and support from them ; and the projyress of eduration under this s^'steni has hitherto been slow. In the year |S27 it Wits in t!ie conteninlation of M\ition. Such an arrangement would have the effect of preventing tie Church of Sn»tland from hnvinji; aiiy shaie in the direction of tlie education of youth, even of t':ose of their o»u persuitsiou, althouirh a bill putting that c urch on an equal footinnr with tho Churches of Home and England in respect to education has beeu repeatedly passed by the representative body of the proviuce lince 1817. Fiom the facts whieh I have stated, it is oI>vious that tite ntunber of clergymen does riot Afford a standard by which an estimates can be matlo of tli<< ])roportion wi'ich the members ofeach rclijSfious denomiuHtion bear to the penenil population of the Canadas. Without presumiui; to ofler any opinion upon the construc^titui of the Act of Parlinmentby which tlioso reserves have beeu set apart for the »n\ifOvt of h I'rotestant ( trffi/, I bcff ICave to Ktate that the petitioners rest their claim of right, to a full and nurcstraincd exercise audeu- joyniont of their religion in those colonies, upon the b Anne, c. 8. The (Panadas were iu^qnired by (ireat Britain after t'le kinirdons cf England and Scotland became united ; and the members of the Church of Scothuid conceive that their church has an equal right with that of Eng'.andto enjoy any advantige or support which may be derived from tlie territory Mr. C. Gmnt 1 • J i 1 1 •i appropriate be irranted for the support of the clergv «f the (!hurch of England, before it was kno«vD whether t'le country would be settled by members of thrtt church or by Presbyterians. M>uiy grants of those lands have been made to Presbyterians, tlie verv men and their descendants who earned laurels on the olains of Abraham, and in other honourable feats hot I by sea and land, as re • ards for faithful services. Presbyterians have also been en- couraged by His M.tjci«ty's liovernmcntat diflTei'cattiraes to emigrate from Scotland and other parts to settle in the Cauadas, aud those persons cannot imagine, that it was iuteud- •d to give the reserves in townships settled by them to the clergy of tbsir fellow subjects souU <^. 1 < .1 ll ::i l,isU I A fm f Mr. ^^Hr J. C. Grant. BSP'*' S6 Jurit 1828. f^^P'^ H^K''' ' .■' I^IPhD ; •;i,,'.. Vi' If;' i i 1 -s •78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE south of tliMTw«eH, and to loave the dorary of their (church altojfothor <1estitutc ; on tho cor.. trary, they ha'-e always conceived tliat under the fyeiieral words "a Proffstniit clirr/i/," used "•in that Acrt, prnviKJon has heeu made as well for the clergy of the C'hiu'c!i of Scotland as for that of F.n<>'Iand. But as the Act in question has been intei*|)reted by some persons in a narrow niid un- favourable manner, and t!v<'(l exclusively by tlie clergy of the Church of England, ilis Majesty's Presbyterian subjecta in the Canadas liope, that throun;li tlio interposition of Parliament all doubts respect inn' the appropriations intended by tliat Act may be removed, and that their chnn;!) may bo endov. ed with an equitable pro])ortiou of those reserves, or the proceeds which may ariisu therefrom, should it be deemed expedient to dispose of them ; and as the provision con. templatcd by those reserven is still only prospective, the petitioners pray that soniu further provision bo made in aid thereof (or otherwise), until the revenue arisinir from Buch lands shall be snflident for the maintenance of a number of clerg't men of ti eit church, proportionate to the extent of the Presbyterian population. Ti ey disclaim any desire to encroacli upon any rig[hts which may have been secured to the Clmn-h <»!' En- gland, and they would regret to see lier clergy deprived of any support that migl t add to their usefulness and respectability. They only claim that measure of support and protection to which their proporlionatc number and importance in the general population of those provinces may entitle them, Considerati(uisofe(|uity, and the soundest policy, demand the repeal of the provinciul statute of Up|)er Canada, .38 Geo. 3, c. 4-, and a recognition of the Clmrch of Scotlaiul, as well in that province as in Low<>r Canada, aud that a suitable nrovision be made from tiie clergv reserves, or some other fund, for the rauintenanoe of the clergy of that chunh. And as t'>e attachment of the Presbyterians in those provinces to their own church has been called in question, and their numl>ers represented as iuconsidentble, they are per. fectly willing tl at the conditions on vhieh any provision or aid, to be afforded to them fur the support of their clergy, shall previously require a certain amount of voluutary con. tributions from the members of every congregation claiming' tucli assistance, as well ns that such a number of heads of families as may appear to His Majesty's Governnieni sutKcient to constitute a congregation. I take the libei'ty of handing to the Committee u copy of the resolutions adopted by the Presbytery of the Scottish secession of Upper Ca- ]|)ada, in the month of January last. ♦' At a Meeting of the l^iited Presbytery of Upper Canada, held at Broekville, on Wednesday the 23d day of January 1828, the fuUowJDg Preamble aud ^lesolu, tions were considered aud adopted : '< Whereas, atameetingof the General Committee of Presbyterians in Montreal, held pn t'''»" "'P''* l'i'»t before tlio ('onnnittee ? — I wisli to give txplaiia- Kkqinre. timis unon certain poiiits noticed in a nieniuranduin 1 have jfiven in. t • ■^' "» Tlie lii*st point noticed in t at nienionindum is, tliat Noiue copies of hills g'ivcnin by 28Jun«l8£i. voii are not in the st»tj in whicli tliey were actually sent np to the Council; will yon state whether the hills as tliov arc now before t e ( 'onnnittee dill'er in any important particnluni from those whicli were sent np? — I appreliend not in any important particulars; but 1 (f()t thecoi»ies from one of tlie ch'"ksof the House of Assenild , and lie was not able to jfet coitiesof th .ni all from the Council, just as they iad jfone np : he eit er jjaive the printed copi''!* that were in his possession, or copies that liad been used for eiirs, aiid 1 find that in a Report laid before the House of Assembly by the Land Committee in I8'^4-, there are the opinions of the law otltccrs of the Cro'»n iu Eic'liiiid and in the colony, wi.ich Stiy th.it Hiere were doubts on tte subject, whether the En"lish law, with rejyard to property, was iu force or was introduced into the colony !)Vt e kinjt'sproclamiition in 17ti3. ' Have anv instances come to your knouiedffe in wliich what you have considered as the laws of (.'annda witli respect to real property have been applied in t e province to lands held iu free and comnion socca^e ? — 1 cannot state the instances havin)^ come to ray kuow ed"e, but I never conceived that ony other law was applied at all. Have youliuown any instances of persons holdiu the laws of Canada. A deed was passed accord! nou look at the title of the person from whom you purchase; and in doing that I was guided entirely Viy tlie lavs of Canada. ' Was' that property situated within the townships? — It fias sitvated in the township of Stonchara, within 30 miles of Quebec. Can vou inform the Committee in what mode security is given for money borrowed ori land held in free and common soccage in Lower Canada ? — The security is giveu in the 8imie manner as it is iri', en generally throughont the country by notarial deed, bjf what Enr|tiire. those prrsoiiH helnif settled in lliu county wliirfi I rt'ifri'si'ikt and in the ailjoiiiiiitr ronntv ; r— -*■ »I liHve contiaued actively ein|iluy«Ml in lliat for the hwi ten yeai.>*, to tlivkaouledge of to St June 1H28. whole county. Will yon state li')>v you spttled tliem ? — It would lie a Ion;r ''••tail, but in tlic Jsevciith Land Ueport ( A.>j>i,'iiiblyV Journal, LSJ!,) tliere ik an account of it. Have y<»n f<»uud that Euro|M)an ponulafion to be i;euf. ally contented 'r — Vn-. <• v- tented,ai>.d tliey a<>:i'ce reniarUably well with rlie (^uiadiau ])U[iulatir jou as ttei:iHMiries that yon can ifct any fl.vtent (»f land lyin;> in a Iinnp ; thi> townsliip limits ar- ill! divided into reserves ami other grants I iuff waste, in the posstneion of aliscntccs aiiil persons that you r^iunot lind out ; tlierefore I fixed upon that spot : thei-e were t o Canadian >rentleincn, an advocate and a notary in Quebec, and an Ln.>'lish -idvocate ami myself enjfaj^ed in the project: \ve took from t e «!omniis8ioners of the Jesuits esla'e* iibout 75 lots lyinjr toj|;etlier on f e usual conditions by the old laws, and «ve dt t'nrinod upon haviuyr settlers there, Nobod tiiereabouts would ^o upon tl.cso lands, be«a«se they said the climate ^< as too sevi>re ; it was loo much to t e noith, and we could not ^Jt an> body from the vicinity to connnence tlies«'ttlrment, hut ^^e got people from the river St. Frainris, people in fact from the state of Co'.nictticnt. ; we opened tl>e settlement, V6 frave them the lands upon the same condition that we luu) obtained them ourselves, witl:- out an\ payment to us, and we advanced them snflicient to subsist one year ; there were three of them ; the moment tbat openinjr was made t ere came people from .S(!Oti;uiil iuid Ireland, and we ^rave them lots, and they settled on the land likewise; and now t!:at si't- tlement and the vicinity contains about ciOOsonls ; they are nil Scotch or Irish, witli per- haps a few En<>-lisli and one or two Americans. To what circumstances do yon attribute the preference tliat is shown by the jv.'rsoiis pniiburgh, that to my i^novvledjj^e sold in the market of Quebec diiriii;,' the hiKt year to tiie amount of about 3001. Do you attribute the unwiUin;|ness to settle in those places to the effect produced by • , tbe clergfy reserves ? — Yes ; The irreat cause of people comlufi; from Europe not 8cttlin;j iu Lower Canadais because ther«' is no place for tlicm to fro to ; ffenerallj' speakinj,', every man that comes from Euro|)e conies to somebody ; he has his sixteenth cousin, or some- body from t'esiune paris'i or nei^l^hbonrhood, and from whom he has heard by letter, and he jfoes and sits down beside t lem if possible ; but jn Lower Canada there are none sueli; ^na there can be none such, because \\^i lands are cut up in suciia wa\, that you c.uniot gpt acoqtjgiious tract in any direction. The lenjrth of the winter and its severity are also |iub|cct§ of gread dread to the new comers, and real disadvantage to all. Did not your Engli$;h connection aid your settlement ? — No, the whole of theconrcrn was rather a Canadian concern than a British concern, for the whole of the gentleuieu t at were eu^a{j^ed iu it were of \>luit the) call the Canadian part^. -. Do ^ ) ON THE CIVIL aOVEUNMBNT OF CANADA. ni 1 tlic Seventh 11 of thi'ir con- Do the Frenrli CiinaHiiUis Pvp«ri«"no« any ol»stacl«'s in tlt»'ir atU'inpU to jjot ppovitlo for and rofi^ulate conr<*s>«ions K^juire. or grants by the soijfnenrs to, the arfua/ settlers, have, si nee the ronqiiest, been snft'orpii.' ^ to be nearly a dead letter. The attorney-jfeneral ou'jht to sf>c that tb"»> are executed. -3 June ibsk. Tlie KInjf is authorized by \i\w to ijrant to real settlors, upon tlie sei^rejits rernsiixjr, Niiliiin^of titat kind has been done since the con.j'.jest ; the d on'.'roiis conditions upon the settlers, conditions that they are not authorized by hnvor nsa^je to impose, and w ich a tVesh settler is nnabln ijsAtisfy. Theydinv not venture to take np the lands, and are confined in a narron' limit. There is hardly any difTi-renco between the system that was iiktroduced after tho settlement in (!anada under the French Government, and the s stem that was introduced under the English GoverumenI in the old I'njylish colonics : it was always {^antint; awar UmlH to any man that would actually i^ettle upon them, or cause them to be settled, and takin«- ment to the actiuil settlers ; and that has kept the people from extending t'lemselves. The Assembly passed a bill tu-ice or tlirice to produce a remedy, and. that failed in the Connoil. What difficulty is there in the way of a seijufncur havin<; lands in Canada extendingf his lettlement ? — He may buy as many seii^neuries as any body will sell to him ; but where t)e lands are waste he hofds them upon the condition that he will prant them to actual wttlers upon payment of certain dues; and instead of the dues and the regulations bein^ adhered to according to the old laws, the la<^s have been suffered to be extinct, and the people cannot get land at any reasonable rate. You mean that the landlords insist upon too much ? — They insist upon what I'ey have no right to, 80 much that the peu|;'.<-^ cannot pay it ; t'e people couidpaj it during the var, ' when <\heat was selling at a higi price, but now ♦hey cannot pay it. Then the landlord Ib ultimately the loser ? — He is not a landlord in the usual sense in this country, but a poison to whom lands have been granted on condition that settlers (hould be put upon t em as proprietors, on their p.iying certain customary dues. He is cer- tainly ultimately the loser, because instead of joining with the people in selling the lands and making thera ultimately valuable, in consequence of mou i w ' . m MINUTES OF EVIDEN( E TJKFOUK f HLECT COMMITTEE m John Xeilmn, Ew|utre. 88 Juiic IS.'S. ' 'W^ ^j".^ Do you coiiueive that a law uft'^at iiiitiirc woiilil romovo, in r jfroat dojrrpp, tlip irric v:iurK ofthisK lands w licli nrt> lyi'i;; mxntv if a tax u'orc iiii|t(»s("l ; and in delault of i)a\-' "'inont of that tax, the laud wa»forftfit«d ? — I conceive that w.mid In? oiw way of reniedvitV' it ; it would have exactly the ofluct which tin' riMiti of th)> ht'l/iifural ^raiittt liari' at |t.>1 Hf^nt. The iteijfnuural ^rant iH cunditioui'd, witlitlie pavni^iat of a huiiII anuiial rent, wliich every one is bound to pay. It \h nc' co Isidore I that it ciuiiot lavfnlly oxcnod ani'imy n nuperticial acre, aud every one who may like to setth' lias a ri;;lit to an uiioc<'ii|Mi>(l < rested individual, ^ou uould have found that th:'re would be very little moiio|>oly uf Mild land, tlie most pernicious of all monopolies, as it. costs n<»tliinir to persevere in it. Would not the remedy that lia-s been sii^ifested be an efl'ectnal remedy a forfeited ? — All tliat I can say is, that it would tend to remedy it ; but it is impossible for any body to say what would be au eirectuid renu'd/ in colouieRunder all the circuiustanctts. Can you suifg'est a remedy more likely to be eflfvctual '?— I think not; I think it is likely to he effectual. Do you see ans disadvantaos8e8sion of the C'rown, to be given to persons tliat w xild actually sit down ujuni t em, or rather sold new the spot to the best bidder^or f as/t. Did that produce any eit><;t ? — It has produced no efl'ect, because they passed a law here which cannot be executed : they are not aware of tlie circumstances of those countries. To uhat class of individuals did you allude as bein y^raiils. Is there no condition iis to cultivation made in t ose grants ? — There is an alisolute con- dition to that effect attached to all grants. The King never granted an aero of laud, even as a reward for services in America, without the condition of actual settlement and culti- -vation being entailed u|>on it : t ose lands are quite a different thing from the Crown lands here ; it is an important part oft e administration, euabliug the people to settle aud spread over t e country, t e only tiling t at has made the countries in America valuable. It has beei) suggwsted to the Committee that many of t e ditficulties »\ hich exist bctwern the two provinces iis to commercial aud financial matters, might he adjusted by anncxiui( Montreal iui a port to the Upper Province, what iu your opinion would be the eti'eci i>t' fiuch an alteration ? — The effect of such an altenition, iu fact, would be to annihilate Lower C'anada as a scpanite government. If the town aud islmd of Moutre^l -are to belong to Upper Canada, aud they are to impose duties upon goods that are imported tjierc, as all goods coming into tliat part of tue coiu'try will goto tli)-' principal city at the head of the navigatitm, the people will go to .that common centre to buy the goods tliey w'aut, and pay the duties upon those goods, aud those duties uould . go to tlie (lovernment of Upper Canadt, and tt'e Governmeiit of Lower Canada, instead pfliaving a revenue sue)) as :t has novi , would in fact have a rcvetii^e of only one thinl. the | { • po|>«'iii>; two tliinls of the wliole popula- , ^^ XtiUon tirtii ; the (lovHrnin extreuu* boundary between Lower and I p- pcr Canada ? — It \h tin* eonfre oftlie population of the dlMt-rict of Montreal, and the popu- lalion of the district of IMoutreal in aiiotit two tldrds of the whn, that all tliep(>ople liviu/ in the distrit-t of Montreal naturally <>:o, and iiiUNt oodK pa\s the duties, and tl(>^e dntien vould f eourse, if the United State** ever |)Ut fort I t eir means for t e eonrjuest of Canada, Knoii equal ti'rnis, or at least upon tetnis which tids nation would be wiliinir to submit to, that is, without iinderijoinjf an expense beyond ail calenlation, uulessit be where the naval power of (Jreut Britain can easily jK'uetrale without danjrer from the land : there the power of Eiii^land in rwility does extend, in spite of the United Suites of Amerira, and in spite of every traus- atlHtitic power. No j»a:t of the St. Lawrence below the Uichelieu Itnpids, 45 miles al)ovc Quebec, can possibly be uut of the reach of her power ; but it is understood that the navi^ra. tion can be interrupted by fortifications at that place. If; on take the means of two thirds of thi* population of Lo«er Canada, and combine them out of t e reach of the power of Eulrland, I think that it very much tends to diminish the means that this country nniy have a<;aiust tlu; United Suites in a future w.ir : where the (lovernraent is, there will be the power, and for tne safety of the country it seems to me that that power ouifht always to be vritliin the reach of the etlective power <»f (Jreat Britain, her naval power, which is that upon \thicli her military operations beyond the Atlantic must al" ays he based. Do you suppose lh.it depriving Lower (^anada of Montreal would excite g7*oat dissatis- faction in that province V — There is no doubt about it. Asfjreat as a union of tl>e two provinces ? — It seems to met' at it would be worse, both 18 ren;ards the interests of this <"onntrf, and the interests of Lower Canada. Ilo* does it affect the interests of this conntiy "f — By reinovin;'' nearly the wliole power of that country out of the reach of t^ is country, and placing that power within the reach of the power of the United States of America. Ilave you given in iich attention to the state of the der;;\ reserves in t'e province of Lower Canada y — Yes, I liave given a good deal of attention to it, for since 1817 the mat- ter has been particaliul under my consideration ;i re-oUect, in 1817, being enipio «hI by the people of a town.sliip near Quebec to draw up a petition against those reserves; it was brouglit to tliis country bj' Sir John (!. Sherbrooke, governor in c ief. Do you c(msider the state of tiiose clergy reserves as a great iinpedimeut in the way of the settlement end of the prosperity of the country ? — I suppose there is not any person connected with Canada t. an can^aveAU* doubt upon that subject. Do you consider the present state of the clergy reserves as having had a very unfortu- nate eSfect upon the religious peace, and the general harmony and goodwill of the |)opnla- tion of Canada towards one another y — Yes ; if that were the only cause thiogs would not have been so bad as the < are ; they no doubt are the preoent bone, of contention, but a con- tention connected with religion has been going on a coiisideiable time, and it originated altogether, in my oj>inion,in tlie pretension v hich has been set up by the church of having ao exclusive establishment in Lower Canada. Are the clergy reserves mauitged at this moment b^ a corporation composed exclusively \ of members of tiic Church of England ? — Yes, nearly the wliole government is composed of members of the Church of Englatid. Have you an means of forming an estimate of the relative numbers of members of the Charch of England compared with the whole population in Lower Canada ? — There I aft been no enumeration, and every one of course will be inclined to make Ids own party the most powerful, but ifyou wisli to know the real proportion ofthe different reiigiousdenominations aniODgsi Protestants in tiie Canadas you may judge from what it is in the United States of America ; ^ ;il 11 ! J ! t84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT .COMMITTEE JeAn Xcilton, '^'i^^rica; there isin fact no difference as to the countrieii from which the r come undthf Ktquire. ' cuiihoa of their coming, and the division amon^fRt them tvith respect to religion. -/>»— ^ Judging from your means of observation, do you thinl< that a tcntit of the Protestant po- M Juita 162K. |vilution of Lower C'uiiadii are memhors of the Church of England ? — I should suppuiic of Protestant iio|iulation in Lo»er (.'aimda they may be more t an a tenth. ll 111 bihuuld you say tliey are one eiglitli ? — I cannot nay ; perluips they may be a fifth of the Protestant population. Are you a mrmbor of the Church of Scotland • — I am. What proportion of the Protestant pop illation of Lower Canada do you conceive to be memliers of the Church of Scotland ? — I should conceive that there are more men)l)pr8 of the Church of Scotland than of the Church of England, but t ere cannot be a very ^rrout difference between them ; I speak of those that are actuuUv born and broug'it up in tliu Churcii of ^Scotland ; members of the persons who belong to tlie Church of England have come from the old colonies, from the United States of America. Do vo;t t Huk that tlio miyoritv of the Protestant population in Lo'^er Canada is cnn- necteu either with t)e Ciiurch ot En'^land or with the ('hurrh of Scotland, or tliat the majority is unconnected with either of those c urches ? — I think the majority does not be- long to either one or the other. I do not tiiink that t'lere is more than jO.OOO Protestants altogether in Lower Canada, and I should suppose tiiat the (!liuro i of England may con- tain about one lifth, and the Churcli of S«'otland nnothci fifth ; the rest are Congre<'ati- onalistH, or f*re.sbyterianH, from the Vaited States, Wesleyuus and othiTs. Do von think tlie principle of providing fur tlie clergy from the proix'cds of land a ron- venient principle in a country situated as Lower (Canada is ?— Any tiling that will pruduco dissension or Jealousy among the aifferent denominations ifl fatal altogether. I do not see bo* von can provide for them all by Und ; and if >ou provide for any by land there will be a jeaionsy against those that are so provided tor ; and t'lere will be religious dissensions, which I think is A greater curse than any t. ing we have had yet. Do the members of the C . urt;h of Scotland consider that they have an equally good claim witli those of the Church of England to a share of the proceeds of the clergy reserves ?— Tr^v surely do conceive so. Would dissenters that do not belong to cither the Chiirch of England or the Ciuirch of Scotland acquiesce in any arrangement that went to give the proireeds of those lands to the momtiers of the Chiin^h of England and t'>e Church of Scotland, to their own exclu- sion ? — No ; all over America there is a jealousy against any church tiiat is connected witli temporal power. Ho V are t le clergy of the Clnirch of Scotland provided for ?— By their own people ; by Toliintar; contributions. Are they i (^slpectahly provided for ; and are they a respectable body of men ? — They arc a respectable body of men any that we have ; but ne have onlf regidorlv ordained clergy- men of tlie Church of Scotland in the cities of Montreal and Quebec ; these are the only places that could secure a sutKcicnt stipend, as required in the Church of Scotland. Are t e Committee to understand that the religions wants of the Presbyterian popula- tion of Lo*er Canada are not adequately provided for upon the present system ? — Cer- tainly not. It is a cruelty, wiien people ai'e encouraged to iro out to those new countries to settle in the wilderness, dispersed as they raiist be all over that wilderness, not to give tliein some kind of assistance to procure religious instruction ; and I do think that there mig t be somet'iiing done in favour of those w.o have been born and brought up in the National Churches, without exciting jealousy on t .e part of others ; but if it were to excite jealousy on the part of others, I Mould sav, away with it! for if there is to be jealousy in tiiis mat- ter, we shall have no rest till we tall into the arms of the United States, where such jeuluu- sies are ertectiially jirevented. Wliat do j'ou conceive would be the best way, under all t'le circumstances of the colony, of dealing with this question, :uid of providing for the religious wants of Lower Canada ? It is very difficult to find out what is the best »ay. The hiw I'as certainly made a provision in land for a Protestant clergy. I am always very dubious of interfering with i\ hut is esta- blished bylaw. Ifyou give people any thing, it seems to be given ; and I do not kno^v how far your right extends of taking away what yon have given ; but I should saytheroun- iry will be ruined altogether, it cannot be settled^ nor can any thing be done, tiU suchtimi^ } 'i ' \i i .. ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Mr fiXhow reserves arc done away with, or till thove whohuld them are compelled to do exactlj jj^^ S'liUon^ •hat every othi'r holder of Unci Sii tlie rounfry ih liuuud by law to do, to nit do^'ii upua it, Enquire, and cultivrtte it ; if they rewide and cultivati", it iH no matter who lioIdH the land. , " ^- - - \ Arc yon HniRfiiMitly avqniiintcd witi Upper Clunuda to knO'V whetherthe mime causes in^a Juna iviS. thiit province have produced the Hanio re^uitN, in inipediii); the prosperity of the conntry, andin prodncinjgr reli;;iou8 and political disHenHion ? — Yei4, Ikiiov« from nt« on obNerva* tion in Upper Canada, that a ^freat deal of the diirii;utries there have arinen fruiu the ubnHes intlie land-;<[Taiitin heusion on the part of many Catholics since 1817 ; the uhole Government and tlie Legis- latire Council being in the hands of Protestants, and particularly of one church ; t!<.e cor- poration tiiat t^as to manage the schools happened to be of the same description, and they attempted to establish those schoolsall over the province ; some of the Catiolics imagined tluit it was a kind of prosel « ting plan, and it nused some jealousy. Are the (.!ommitt«e to understand from u hat you have said that if both the Protestant and Catholic religions are protected in theirestablishment in that country, and there is no ap- pearance of any design on the part of (i^overnment to infringe on the ri^ ts of one or tn« other, that you do not apprehend that there will be auy religious animosities between Pro- testants and Catholics in the provii^ce of Lower Cana()a ? — I should think so. It vaa not till 1821, upon the rejection of the school-bill sentup by t!ie House of Assembly giving the, direction of the schools severally to the clergy of all religious denominations, that there did worn to break out any great jealousy on the part of the Roman Catholics. Tnat confirm- ed tlicm in the jealousies whic i they probab y had internally before, on accouut of certain iastni .tions already mentioned ; but then they burst forth to a great extent ; since tl at time they have gone on increasing, but they did not believe, nor do they yet believe, that the Governiueut of this country was at the bottom of it ; they generally tiiought that it v/aa something started in t le colony, and it has not, in consequence of that, got to so great a hei;rht as it would other\nse have got ; for amongst t: e body of the people at this present moment, no man ^ks whett>cr his neighbour is a Catholic or Protectant ; there are Catho- . lies and Protestants in the same family and neighbourhood, and all li\'ing in perfect har- mouy. In truth, no country was ever more oxempt from religious animosities than Lower Canada has generally been during the 37 years I have resided there. Are there any attempts to proselyte on the part of the Catholic CImrch ? — No ; I think thcv are the least prosel^'ting people t!>at ever I have seen. I have been frequendy at the houses of tie clergy, and they never talk to you about religion ; generally the Canadian' Roman Catholics shun every conversation about religion. Are the Catholic clergv much respected by their flocks generally ? — They arerespccted, Il)«!ievi>, by over', body in the country ; I have never heard any body speak ill of them i^dtruli^-. P| • 1 ri F'l M^ MIMUTE8 j»Mriii'r or votiix/ at itii i'li>ctioii ; fli<>v ,!o ma !M Juiii>, I8ii«. t'.ink Mint it iit cuumiitcut with their interest und rulij(iout» duties to i ave any tiling to d.> vith politii-fl. Did not thi\v materially assist tlie (li)vcniment in the defence of t' oprovince duiiii;' fin- war ? — That is with them a reli^riouH duty. In the war in 1 775 they took a verv uttiv.? part in cneoura<;iii;(the people to defend the coiuitrv ; and in the war of Ibli thi>v aIm) took an aetive part ; hut the whole horly of the people took an active part at tlmt tlmo ; thev were opposed to tho Aineric'ans, and they wer« Htrongly attached to a f«Muiecrioii iVith t iH (lurerninent. (Jenerally, is not the idea of tho people of the Lower Province that any moaMircM tt|,t have come from this country.of which tliey may have thiujfht they had reatMyn to coi)i|il,tiM, liavA pro(;pe(|ed very much from tho imperfect iufornnitlon which the tVauierii of iliuse meaHnreH have had of tho situation of tho (>anaduH ? — Yes ; there is nohody in that t'iiiiii> try that ever conceived that thiti country can luve any interest in doing uu injury to aiiv livinif 80ul in the colonies. Has not that feelinjf tenrled very much to soften any ft>elin«fs of irritation whic!» nwli measures may lave produced ? — Surely it has. I h onld conceive t at after t e inipriMin. mcnts and diNsolutious in 1810, ha I it not heen for the contidenco tlie people then rejiuscil in the Justice of this country, we should 1 avrt in 181 -i had a deal of difficulty in ;."'tHii,r t : em to come forward with the 8]iirit they she > men come tiiere occasionally, and the Irish C'atholirs have only six or eight mi!es to go to the parish church of Saint Aiu- broise. The Scotch seldom tec any body, excepting some travelling Methodists, and some- times a minister of the Church of England, who occasionally comes out from Quebec ; t o Scotch minister has also been out. There are t ere, I should suppose, 20 or 30 Scotch families, and they doattend to such preaching and praying as they can get ; but they are all steadfastly attac ed to their own church. b there any regular Protestant service in the settlement ? — No. I gave to the bishop of OS THE ClVit. COVEnSMnN't or CAJfADA. ■I Chiirt'li of r.ii hn'Mctlic ( ciiclu'N ; an r.iiyrl.uul n lot of land upon trhirh to iMiild a nrliool hon4<>, and in timt J'>i>n S>ih->n, L'titin-li of En;xlHnd iniiiiMor «-oiii<'n out occiutioiially ami roadu the •■orvirp, I*- **!"'"'- il ofhrrs coiiic out iiiid in't into aiiv Iioiim' tImt tlicv can, and tlu'v ijiv*' iiu-'" " .'" ^ ,'^ will not allow of the •*'"' 1'' |i(T to till' |M><»p|(> to couK* luid uttciiii praviTH, jisaliu "i.i;;!!!/ and j>r««urliinyf. Nllti' ii'Niill fluton SiimliiyN rliiTti is Kni>vvr tlii'r«> lia|»pi'nii to bo Hervin', u lii>n I am tlioro I attond, luid I liav«> ahvayii loiiiid that th«>r«> uill bcalioiit 100 ponton^ uttt'ndin^r N«>rvico: in fart th«*r<> is not anv HifW vttliMiK'ut ^t iicro lilt* pi'oplo are not doNironii to hav«t roli;^ioiiH iiuitnictioM, /reuprally ac- i'oriiin' provincial fiiiidH; ho begtiu Nh«»i*tly aftor torrcpiirc the childron t«> loarn tho cutochiNm of tin* Church til'I''.u;>land;l>ororo that tho childron bad nil nttondod thoNchool; tho momont lliat haitponod tii<\v nearly all withdrew, and horomainod with two or thrco Hcholun*. Tho poojilo thou joiiic.l to;;ot!ior, thofo liol(»n;jing both to tho I Vofontant and to tho Catholic Chnrch, and ciuitloyod all old soldier to he thoir HchoolmuNtor ; this old Noldicr was a native of England, itiiii H meniUor of thu Church of En^'land ; tho person that actuall\ Rorvcd as dork whoi^ the Clinrch of Kn;rland miniHter ramoouttoolKciato. They took thin . 'Uid imid himfor t<'.trliiM^r their childron. The CatholicH, Scotch and DiHHontor.s »ont tliei. ildron to hint nit'iout tlto leai»t hesitation; but they moukI not let thoir children (.'o i)ii:k to thoHchool ill which they had attempted to toacli thom tho ratochi(*ni of th«' Church of England. Do tlioy road the Diblo in tluit arhoul ? — In all tho schooU in Ar » ica tiny u»ui *'.y road the liible or TcKtunioMt. Hotli in tho Protentint * id the Cnthollr Rchoidi* ?— No, the CathoU any Bible but tho bililc tiiuc in Hanctionod by thoir 'wn church. )h tho Bible t'> it in iillowod by tho Catholic Church jfenerally road i-.i the (. atliolic schoolit ? —No ; there itt i- liat they c^ill tho Epittra and JUvamjiles, and a History of tb" Bible, consist- in;; of o\tract.s from the (iospol and KpiHtles and Komo other bookN, which contain hir;;e portions of the iScriptiiroH which are read in the Uoman (Catholic scIiooIh ; but d^eneruUy h|M'al\in;j; they do not {jothroujfh with tho rosidin*; of tho Bible the same as they do in tho (M'hools in t^crttland. A translation into French uf the New TestHment is frequently found ia fiiiiiiiioN ; but I believe not used in sidiooU. IliiH any attempt over been made by the Assembly of Lower Canada to provide more !!• bcrally for the Catholic* Church ? — No. Which is considered tho better provided for of the two, the Catholic Church or the En^r liiih C'hurch '( — The Eni;Iiah (Jhurch have moitt pecuniary emoluments than the Catholic Church. The duties of the Catholic clerg^y in Canada do not leave them a day in the week to themselves. Have you any doubt that when the population incroasos to a certain extent, and when there is tt (greater dejrrce of wealth in the country, there will be always a clerjry ready to administer the duties of rolii^ion to the population ? — I have no doubt that iu every countrjr in North America they will have aclor^y ofono description or another, that is, such aclcr- {T}' its is most to their likinjf, to totich relij^on and perform public worship; but at the pre- sent time the settlers from this country, particularly those that belong to the no- tional churches, I conceive to be rather destitute ; for the Dissenters are much more ac- tive than those of the national churches, who have been in the habit of beinnfu rovidedj^for Disscuting teachers ore j^oing backwards and forwards (constantly. I conceive there ought to bo some assistance ^ivon to the emitrrants of the national churches for the present. I have made out a statement of the nuinocni of t: e cleri^y of the dillerent churches in the two provinces ; the Catholics are counted from a list given by t: e socrctAry of the Roman Ca- tholic Bishop of Que'.>ec, the Church of Enjrland by the Archdeacon of Quebec, and th^ denominations by tho clergymen of the difFerent denominations. How did you obtain that statement ? — It was obtained for a publication at Quebec. Citn its corroi>tnosH be relied upon with respect to the various denominations? — I have po 'Jual;l of it. The number of tne clergy ok the ditTorent denominations are as follow : Keligiona I IP'^.ii i;.:''r Iri 188 [lj 1 I Jnhn XtUlon, K.*quirt. * '• ' * \ 88 Jun« 1H28. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Keligpiotu Teachers in the Canadan, 1627. Roman Catholics : tn LoH-er Canada Upper Canada Otlicr parts of the Diocese 275 IQ 87 Church of Enn;Und : 312 fn Lower Canada Upper Canada Army Chaplains 84 32 6 Church of Scotland i 72 In Lower Canada Upper Canada 7 6 -» 13 Seceders from the Church of Scotland, or other Presbyterians : |n both pro vinoes .... 12 Wesleyans, or other Methodists : In Lower Canada Upper Canada In Upper Canada 11 39 Baptists : 50 41 Revd. Harry Leith. *■- — Besides Independents, Con(|;r«^tionalists, Moravians, Quakers, Jews, &c. The clergy.. men of the Church of Ennfland alone are provided for from public funds. What is your opipion with respect to tne conduct of the Church of England clergy; are they zealous and successful in the dischargee of their duties, or the contrary ?— I conceive ihem to be a very respectable body of men. Are they adding to the number of the established church ?— ^If things go on as they do »t present they will diminish very much the number of the established church, for any thing like irritation will take away from an establishment. Protestants formerly had no animosity against any churc 1 in Canada; they aided one another, and went to that church which happened to be the most convenient. Tie exclusive claims now opeul} announced )l>y the English church in Canada will set all others against it. The Revd. Hurry Leith, called in ; and Examined. - You are now the minister of Rothemay, in Scotland ? — I am. .What acquaintance have you with the province of Upper Canada? — I was resident in that country for nearly four years and a half, from September 1822 till about the «nd '-:)f January 1827. Are you connected with the Churo'i of Scotland ?— lam. In what capacity were you in Canada ? — I officiated as a clerg}'nian, and likewise had dtaiige of the eastern dilstnct public school. Are you acquainted with the wish that has been expressed by tHe members of the Churck of Scouand, to obtain a portion of the proceeds of the clergy reserves ? — I am. Yfhalt have you to state to the committee on that subject ? — That they consider they have j|a.eqval claim with the Church of England to a share of those reserves, on two grounds : )it. z' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF «ANADA. MO c. The clergy^ Id likewise had ls{. Ail memliers of one of the Established Churches of Great Britain ; and also as the The ftev. Members of the Scotch Church ia c anada ore by far more numerous than those of the Harry Leithi Church of Eii}(Iiiud. They consider that, on both thesep'ounds.theyhavea claim to apartici-< ^" ■ " » nation in those reserve;*, which were set apart for the support of a " Protestant cloq(y."2Si'> J""* 182tf* L' it their opinion that their ri;;'htarises out of the Act of 1791 ? — It is their opinion that it vas the intention of tlie framcrs of that Act, that the Scotch as well as English Church should be comprehended in its provision. Can you i^ive the committee any information as to the number of the members of the Scotch Church in Canada, and the proportion they bear to the numbers of the Church of En;'land ? — In the distri<;t in which I resided during those four years there are four congre- jrations in connec'^ion with the Church of Scotland, and two in connection with the Caurch of England. In one of the churches in connection with the Church of Scotland, namely- that at WilliamstoMii, the avcr.i;:re number of communicants is from 4^0 to .500 ; at Martin, town the number was about 350, and at Locbicl I think about the same number ; at Corn- wall the church was only erected a few months before I left that, so that th<; sacrament had uerer been dispensed there ; but I am fully convinced that it is at least equal to t' e Episco- pal cour Episcopal congred to otliciate in the same churcii occasionally ; it may be once a fortaijjht, or once a month, I cannot state the interval exactly. lu the Ottawa district^ which has been but recently settled, a Mr. M'Laurin hiv< been officiatinnf for three or four years as a minister of the Church of ScotUmd to two or three connfreg;ation8 ; I cannot state their numbers, but think they must be considerable, as I have understood frora Mr. M'Lau- rta that a Mr. Hamilton was almost the only Episcopalian in that quarter. At Kinn^stou, in the midland distri(;t, there is a highly respectable Scotch congregation ; it has only been or^ranized for about six years, and the number of communicants already amounts to Hi), in the districts of Niagara and Gore, where, according to Dr. S.'s chart there are no Pres-r byterians at all, I am able to state that there are at least l(i Presbyterian congregations; that the number of communicants in all the Episcopal Clumhes of these two districts doe^ not evceed, 4<) : this has been ascertained from authentic sources. In one case, viz. Fort Ene Church, the communicants are eight in number ; in unothi-rten, and the average uum? ber in all the Episcopal Churches of the four districts, Niiipira, iJore, Loudon aud Western District, amounts to no more thiin 2.% The state of the Englisii Church iu the Gore dist hict is so grossly misrepresented hi Dr. S.'s chart, that I caniir/ refrain from pointing out at'ew'ofits inaccuracies. It is stated, in said chart, that there is an Episcopal Church at Aucastcr, and Divine Worshin regularly performed in it. There is, 1 believe, but one church at Ancaster, and in it tnere is Divine Service regidarly performed by a Mr. Sheed, who was ordained to that charge iu April 1827 by tie Presbytery of Aberdeen. At Bur- ton, where Dr. S. states there is an Episcopal Church and Divine Service regularly per- fornu'd, there is only what is called a free church, t. e. a church erected by the united Mihscriptions of Episcopalians and Presbyterians, &c., and in which ministers of both these deuoiniuations have an equal right to officiate. At Dundas there is a Catholic Church b\illding, but there is no Episcopal Church ; neither has the m oruhip of that church been performed there for four or five years. At Woolwich there is no church, neither has reli- poHs worship been ever performed there. At the Indian village there isachurch which was built by Government for the Indians, and which is in fact the only place in the district where t: ere may be said to be an Episcopal Church. Do you believe that many persons originally conrecled with tlie Scotch Church conform- ed to the worship of the Church of England, where a church is establivhed iu that commu- nion '{ — Where no Scotch Church I as been established, tliose who were members of thai church have been in the habit of attending the Morshin otthe Church of England, and soibQ luay have t .us from necessity have become members of the Churcn of £n£[laud ^batthatMOi* 02 i'/ ;-r ii i. W'\ u ml ' ihl tM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTER a much greater proportion of them prefer remaining unconnected with tliat church, isob* /tct> H. Leiih yioug from the uumerous bodies of Dissenters that are invari.ibly found in thot-e districts in * j ' vvliic'; thereat; no Scotch cler;rj'men, orwht-re they have been but ret-ently settle!. 28 June, ]&28. ^^^ ^^^^ ^jj^^ members of the Church of Scotland in the habit of attendine afternoon service iu the Scotch Church. It is also, I think, very probable that in such churches as those ut Burton in the Gore district, and Osnabruck iu the eastern district, which wrefree churches, many of both denominations will attend the services of the diftercnt preachers tliat may otiiciute. J Have those unsettled and coutendiug claims of different religious sects tended to produce feelings of animosity, political and religions, in the province of Upper Cauada ?— TIk y have; and there is every reason to expect that the same feelings will continue to distractl the province till suc'» time as the Scotch Church obtains thatrecopiition and support Imsaj Government to wliiclj it considers itself ctiually entitled with the Church of iuigliiiic!. 'Ihere I are also other circumstances Wiii(di tend very much to keep alive, if not to increase, the.'>e| feelings. Scotch clen^ymeu in Upper Canada are sulycctcd, by provincial enartnieuts, to I disabilities in the discharge of their ministerial functions. A clergyman, after haviiitli[ of residence may have been. This disability may at tirst sight seem unimportant, but is iii-l deed far otherwise, as will appear wlieu is considered the situation of the «ountry, tliatj there are in every part of it new settlers almost daily arriving, and free| ^ latter have not only to depend for their religious instruction on tlie public ministrations ol'l itinerant preachei-s, principally American, and of all denomination's, but after tiiey Imvej travelled 40 or M miles to have their marriage solemnized by a clergMuan of tbeirownl c urch, are informed by him that ! e is disipialihed by a provincial statute from the solt'ni- nization of their marriage, and that they must apply to an Episcopal clergyman for its I , solemnization. These disabilities do not exist in Lower Canada, norany other li^iti^ll I colony. A repeal of lh,?se statutes by tlie Provincial Legislature amounts alnu)st to an impossibility. The House of Assembly would pass no Act for their repeal w. ich did not include all sects and denominations ; and tlie Upper House would with dinicplty be broii(;l't to pass an Act in uhich -.h:> Church of Scotland uas alone included. Relief can be had from an Act of 'h* Imperial Pnrliament alone, placing the Scotch Church in the North American provinces on an tijual Ibotiny with lh.» Chiinh of England, and conveying to its ministers full pcwer to exei else all the functions of their sacred office, as ministers in connection wit i one of the Established Churches of Great Britain. And as the *cotih fdergyinen ^n Canada have not received power to form theuuelves into a Presbytery, so ©y THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA Ml iiiairs stcud; and I 28 Juae, ti28. n to ba enabled officialljr to examine the credentials of those professing themselves cler;^- _ it r -tk ■en of the Church of Scotland, should it be deemed prudent, in order to prevent imposi- ^' "-^^l*^ tion, that their credentials s)ould bu subjected to examination in Canada, this mi;rnt be | ^— » dane, if not bv th.> Scotch cler<^ymen alread/ acknowledged in the country, bytha Go>' vernmant, by the Governor in Council, which would enable clern^ymen regularlv ordained to enter imnfiediateiy upon their arrival in the country, on the fulldischarge of all their minis- terial duties. The disabilities laid on the Presbyterians naturally produces discontent and jea- lousies. The Oovernment of Upper Canada places its chief dependence on the loyalty of those districts that are most numerously settled by Scotch ; but as the Scotch are strongly at- tached to t leir National Church, uo course of policy could tend more effectually to alienate tiieir loyalty, and lead to a revolt, than a perseverance in the policy hitherto pursued nith respect to the Church Establishment. Are you ac(|uainted with all parts of Upper Canada, or with the most populous districts of it ? — Not with all t'te province, but witli t'lemo^t populous districts. Have you been able at all to ascertain the total number of Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland in that province, including t\e Seccders and others y—1 have not, uuless in perhaps four or live districts. In the districts with which you are acquainted, can you state what were the general pro* portions of the different religious sects ? — They vary very much. With respect to the Church of England aud the Church of Scotland, I should think that the members of the Church of Scotland are, to those of the Churcli of England, at least as ten to oue. Do the grounds of difference which exist in Scotland between the congregations of Seceders and the congregations of the Church of Scotland exist in North America? — I thiuk not. What are the circumstances under M'hich Presbyterians, living in North America, will remove from them the ground of difference which is found to separate tliem in Scotland ? —The difference in Scotland is principally on the ground of patronage, which cannot be laid to exist in Canada. When any Presbyterian settlement becomes sufficiently numer- ous to be able to support a minister of the Scotch Church, they usually appoint a commit- tee to draw up a bond and call, and to transmit tliem to some Presbytery in Scotland, orftise to some private^friend, to whom they may intrust the nomination of thair minister If they are either personally, or by report, acquainted with any young clergyman in Scot- land, they may insert his name in the call, or name him to the individual to whom they transmit i heir papers. Is there any difference in doctrine between the Clinrc''' of Scotland and the Seceders, mas to prevent them being united in the same Church iu Canada ? — I am not aware of my ; auo I cau state, from my own personal knowledge, that there is not a Scotch con- jrrt^gation in Canada in whiih there are not several of t e members who were Seceders in 8«otlattd, previous to their emigrating to Canada, and that there are not now more zea- lous supporters of the Established Church of Scotland than these individuals. In farther proof ot this I may state, that t:>e congregation to whic'i I was appointed at Cornwall had previously been under a dissenting clergyman ;t'>at of Mr. ( 'onnell at Martintown, and Mr. Ma'hJLvxon at Montreal, were both connected with the Dissenters, and had ministers from them. Iu t e eastern district, where the Presbyterian population are better supplied with Scotch clergy th in in any otiier district, there is not now one dissenting clergyman, al- though there vere formerly two. And 1 have little reason for doubting that, with the rxceptionof perhaps the towns, the same would be the result from having Scotch clergy- men placed ill all the different Presbyterian settlements. Prasticaliy speaking.from your knowledge of Canada, do those t" o bodies of Presbyteri- insact with good understanding towards one another? — One of the most respectable of tha dissenting clergymen applied, nearly six years ago, to the Scotch ministers in Canada tore- coramiMid to the General Assembly the receiving of him and some others of that body into connection with the Church of Scotland The congregation at Niagara,to which Mr. Eraser was lately appointed by a dissenting body in Scotland, previously applied to the Scotch ministers in (Canada tor advice how to proceed in order to obtain a clergyman in full connection with the Church of Scotland ; but they could not give a bond for such a pro- Tiuon as would authorize any Presbytery to grant ordination, and the application was ii! r: iW'^ KM MINUTES OF EVlDExNC'E BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ..A f^ iu June ItiSS. J? ♦ fT r /A*** cODsequence dropped. I am acquainted with two other con^j^e^tionH that hareex- ■"*• •^** pressed a siiailar wish, and that will in hU probability be supplied after ihe present ' incumbraucjw by ministers of the Scotch ('hurch. Was there any collision or misuudcrstandinjiir between them ? — I am not anure of any. Are you acquainted with the manner in which the churches in Upper C'anudaare buih ? —Those built by Presbyterians are built entirely by voluntary subscriptioiiH. How are tiie ministers supported ? — While I was in Canada they M'ere supported en- tirely by the voluntary contributions of their respective congre^tions. Are those churches of the Presbyterians as large structures as the churches of tlie Church of Enpfland ? — In some instances they are larj^er, and in others not so lur^re. Do you know what the avpra<|fe expense of buildiuff one of those Presbytt'riau ohurclics in Canada ? — I should think from 5001. to 7001, ; 1 know that the church that was bnilt it is a frame buildiug'. Those built of stone or brick will 18 I i at Cornwall cost about 5001. cost from 9001. to 1,0001. The llev. Jiihn I.i-e, I). V — ^ n. , ^» , The Rev. John Lee, D. D. again called in ; and Exaiuiuod. The Committee are informed that you are desirous of adding some explaimtions to the evidence you^ave upon a former occasion? — The thinjf that 1 was most nnxious to state is this, I find it represented in a speech published, I believe, by Docto. Stnu lian, that Iiis letter to Mr. Wilmot Horton was written hastily iu consequence of havin;; I«irin-d that some members of the House of Commons had received letters from me, stiitin;; that there were 30 orjranized con<^e{fation8 in Upper Canada in communion with tlie t'lutrc i of Scotland. Now I be" leave to state, that prior to t e time when iJr. Stradiau's letttr was written and printed bv order of the House of Commons, I Itad never written any letter on the subject, and on the contrary, m> letters relating' to that matter Mere written in consequence of the printing of his letter, which appeared to me, and to every member of the Committee of whidi I am convener, as well as to every member ofthe Cliurdiof Scotland with whom I had any conversation, to contain very great misrepresentutious ; my letters were written, I believe, about a month after Doctor Strachan's letter, and v«hat I^id state was to this purpose, that it ^&s a thing that could not be denied that there were 30 congregations in Upper Canada professing to adhere to tie doetrinf-and t« the worship of the Church of Scotland, at the same time I did not state that they were organized or that they had ministers ordained by the Church of Scotland, but 1 stated at the same time that only five or six had ministers who were ordained by the Church of Scotland. Have you a copy of that letter? — I cannot say that I have a copy, but I stated in my letters exactly what is in the memorial which 1 laid before the Committee ; the letters I that I wrote \vere chietly to Lord Binning', now the Earl of Haddington ; Sir Henry Moncrief, I believe, likewise wrote to Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Abercrombie upon the same subject, and I think that he enclosed one or t^o letters from nw to himself npou the subject. The information which I had received ought to have been correct, for 1 hail been in co:>imunication with man v individuals connected with Upper Canada, three or four persons who eit'ter v ere or had been ministers there, and several otiier peojile who had been in the country, and I lun quite confident that I could have even given the uame!i| of the individuals that I mentioned. I Will you have t "e goodness to exidain in what way this bears upon the subject under I the consideration of the ComniitteeV — This letter of Doctor Strachan's professes to {rive I a representation not only of the state of the Clmrch of England in Upper Canada, lint of I the ministers and members in communion with the Church of Scotlana, and also the miuis-l ters of other orders ; now it is very material to us to establish that tiiose statements of| Doctor Strac' an's l>ave been hastily and inadvertently drawn up. Will you state what are the inaccuracies iu his statement and the ground upon whiiM you hold them to be inaccurate ? — First of all, with regard to the Churchof Scotland, lei allows onlv t 'o ministers of the Cliurch of Scotland to be in that province. Now, at th.itj time I named five, and I believe there was at least one other whose name was not kno n| torn*; I have alao to itat« that Doctor Stracban allows only six other congregations I . . ^ iut«»9S instca'l of tlie rmmher which we had reason to represent to exist, and thoso h» states to jl, n,^ be (»f the In(l»(i)iMif!«'nt or ProsbyterJan order. j,/,^ j^.^^ „' p. How iTifiny no you believe there wore ? — I hellere there were fully 20 ministers. , iJ ^ How many roiijfrejrations were there? — The number o/ the (•onjie;;nti(»n'<, airording'js June I8ltf. to our information, was at least 30. We have aLso now t is inlbrnmtiojj witli re;;ard to t*(»of tlie rlistricfrt, which Doctor Strachan takes notice of as containing; no Presbyterian (Wi,'rt':r<'tions, "ith rejfard to Niagara and (Jore ; tliere lU'e cijfht Prcsbylerian congrega- tions in eac ', J 6 in all, althoftjfh Dr. Strachiin does not admit one. Are there any ot .er points upon which you wish to make any statement to the Commit- tee ? — I trust it will not l)e irrejfular to take this occasion to represent to the Committee that it is very easy to account for the increasini^ uiimber of clerg'ymen of the Episcopal persua>«ion, as the encouragement they have received is so much greater j and, according to the information the General Assembly have received, a number of persons tiiat have irone out as sc'oolmastets, some of them being licensed preachers in the Church of Scot- Isad, have been prevailed npon to become Episcopalians, and have received orders. I find that in one district, the western district, tiiree are mentioned as having in a short period become Episcopalians, and received orders in the Church of Ruirlaud. But al- thoiiT^h t lose itiilividuals, who have had presbyterian education, may be induced to change in this manner, it has not been found so far as «e can learn t!iat t >eir '■oiigrcgations arc liisposed to go along with them; but on the coutrar , t lat the congregations are more disposed to adhere to that doctrine and wors ip, andc urch government, which they pre- fer. Dr. Strachmi iiimself was a schoolmaster, and eihicated for the Church of Scotland,' and the circumstance of his havinggone over to the Church of England, so far as lean learn, has not at all tended to increase the number of proselytes among the laity. Will you have the goodness to state to tie Committee what are tie grounds upon «hich the Seceders have separated from tho Cliurch of ScotLind, and "net er tl.oso jrounds exist or not in the province of Upper Canada ? — Tho fact is, that among tho ori»inal grounds of separation of the Secession from the Church of Scotland, the strongest was the revival of the law of patronage: there were some other grounds w! ich certainly are admitted by many members of t:ie Secession not to exist now to the same extent as formerly in Scotland. It was alleged, by many of the earliest seceders, that the Church of Scotland had separated in some measure from the doctriue of the Coufestiion of Faith, but I rather believe that they are now convinced that a vast majority of the ChiU'ch of Scotland entertain the same views of doctrine which they themselves do. Is the ground of difference which still separates them confined solely to ^hat you call patronage, or to the mode iu which their respective ministers are appointed ? — ^I conceive that to be t e chief ground ; and indeed I may state that in Scotland a very great por- portion, at leitst in large to'vns, of those that attend the places of worship in communion with the SL'cession, are compelled to do so by the impossibility of obtaining accommo- dation in the parish churches ; the lower orders of people find it impossible to find ac- commodation. What is the rule held by t*ie members of the Secession with respect to tlie patronage of the ministers ? —That rule is, that the peoplemust elect their own pastors, and there was aperiod in the Church of Scotland wtien that was the law. • In "hat way is t'le right of patrona<»e, which you describe a.s being denied by the Secession, admitted by the congregations of t"he Scotch Kirk ? — At present in tJie Church of Scotland the miuisters in general are appointed either by private patrons or by the Crown. Can t'lere be in the state of the Presbjrterian church in Upper Canada ministers ap- pointed either by tie Crown or by -private patrons ? — There is a possibility of the thing existinfT, but the toing does not exist at present. Are the ministers actuall*' elected by the people ? — 1 believe not. I understand that thig is the practice generally adopted with regard to those who are in connection with the Chare 1 of Scotland: a number of people, feeling that they are capable of contributing in some measure to the maintenance of a minister, write to Scotland requesting some miuisters in whom they have foutiaence, or in some instances requesting of the Presby- ^fj to appoint a minister to be sent out to officiate amonj; them, eng«|^n]f that they will f i ', i < ,{y :p FM ■••I ': '''I * '1 It::' iH MiNUTtS OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE The Ilev. John Lee, o. M. give an adeanate maintcnaoce to that minister ; and I rather beliere that Bomethinpf like the tame rule is observed ia the SeccsNion, although I have likewise reason tu believe tl at ''some of those who call themselves I^esbj-tcrians in Canada are persons v I o have gone its June ism) *"** *" i^eir own adventure, probably have gone out as teachers, having previously re- ceived an education oualifyiog them to be ordained, and the V have come home and been ordained by the religious body with which they were previously connected. Are the Committee to conclude from the answer you have given that in point of fact, neither can the right of election exercised by the scceders, nor can the ri^ht of patroniiire in the congregations of the Church of Scotland, be acted upon in Canada in the same vay ast'iejarein Scotland P — No, I would not exactly wish that that Khould be iufcrtred; for in the case to which I have lastadverted, there is probably an election. I shall state one case: there is in connection with tbe^J^urch of Scotland a Mr. Sheed, nowat Aticaster ; that gentleman went out to that count^ I believe, five or six years ago ; he was liconred as a preacher iil the church of Scotland, but not in full orders ; a chapel was built,an(l it is one ofthechurches which Dr. Strachan,as I am assured, mentioned ns one of the established ciiurches ; but a church was built at Ancaster ;t.' isMr. Sheed was in the habit of preaci>ing therefor some time, and at last the people unitedto call him to be their minister, tosiip. port him adecjuately ; and in consequence of this he came to Scotland, nearly t«o years ago, and was ordained to the charge by the Presbytery of Aberdeen : in that case there was an election. Was that a congregation of Secedera ? — Not of Seceders, but of persons in connection with the Church of Scotland ; so that even in the Church of Scotland there is nothing to prevent a minister being elected by the people; and there are parishes in Scotland v, ere the minister is elected ; there is one of tne most populous in Scotland M'hich is vacant at this moment. North Leith. If t' lit point is settled, are there any grounds of difference left between the Established Ciiurch of Scotland, and the Seceders ? — Ti e fact is, that we of tlie EstablisI ed C!i urch of Scotland feel that there is some difference between the education of the one clasj and of the otiier ; not that I wonld in general say that the education of the Secedei-g is inferior to that of the Established Church, for in many cases it is full) equal, but it is not necessarily so strict as ours. Are you aware that the regium donum which is given to the members of the Presby* terian Ci.urch in the nortli of Ireland is distributed equally to the ministers of tiie Secession, and to those of other congregations ? — Proi'ably it is ; but none of those congregations, so far as I know, are properly speaking, i.i communion with the Ciiurch of Scotland. If it were stated to yon that the two descriptions of Presbyterians that have been alluded to, consi.^ting of the Church of Scotland and the Seceders, though differing in Scotland, were villing to reconcile their differences in Canada, in order that they might obtain a portion of those reserves which by some are supposed to belong exclusively to the Church of England, what answer would you give to that statement V— I may be allowed to state, that so far as regards the information which tl:e General Assembly of the Church of Scotland lias received, many of the congregations, altliough served by ministers who are not in commuuion with the Church of Scotland, have really been long desirous of being connected with the Church of 'Scotland ; and I know that there are ott er congregations, at least 1 know of one other congregation, wt ose minister is at present connected with the Se<'esfiion, but vho are determined to have their next minister of the Church of Scot> land ; and in such cases as I have now described, I should think it exceedingly hard if the menibers of the Church of Scotland are at all admissible to the bene6t of a share is those reserves, that persons who really have long been r.ttached to the Church of Scot' land, although from circumstances which ihey deplore they have not had ministers of that ohnrch, sbonld be deprived of tl at benefit. I may take the liberty of stating further, that although I know that it has been recently represented that ti ose ministers and people in Upper Canada, who hitherto have been differing about matters of doctrine and won ship, are now willing to unite, for the sake ofreceivingaslare of those clergy reserreg, I know that a vast number, and I believe the greater part of those who now profess their wiMingnento be connected with the Chunh of Scotland, have long been making tbe profeni«n. I have in my possession a niunber of memorials and petitions «hi(l w«r» \A' % rn ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. * t95 were sent to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, some of them six, some j),. ^^^^ of ihijm seven years ago ; they hive no r.'fVrence «h»tever to any ih;urt« of th • clerjyy j,/,,, i„^ n. o. pservcs ; and many of those persons st;itc th.it th,>y h ive not ministeni nt all ; o h h>y are-Jtt Juti* lu^a. particularly anxious to be connected wiih th,? (hjrih of Scotland. I conceive th,»t ih .se m-rsons h.ive been quite disinterpsted in th.it profcKsion, and there can be no greater mistake thin to represent that this is done from any view to spoliation, or to tal(.iue wish to share in tliat provision which is allej^ed to have been made for the established cler^\ ? — I cannot take upon me to answer for the ministers at all, but I do admit in thp fullest extent what they represent, that the grounds of difference are very inconsiderable there, and I can sufficiently accouat for this unanimity without any reference to the prospects t at have been held out to them ; . but at the same time I would hope that this distinctiou shall be kept in view ; whatever Dur be tlie ciise with regard to t le ministers who may have an interested motive iu joinin^in thissolicitation, assuredly the same motive caiiuot extend to the laity, who, as I have already endeavoured to represent, have for many years past profesDsed a strong desire to be con- nected \« ith the Church of Scotland, ana to liave mini>(ters of that communion ; and for t «t reason I think t iere is little ground to question tie sincerity of the professions of those persons. Are you sufficiently acquainted wit^ the tenets of the Seceders to be able to say w' ether la case a provision was for tlie Presbyterian ministers, and their appointment placed in the bands of the Crown or vested in the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, those StHJeders would concur in t'lose appointments ?-rI cannot venture to say that t ey would, I can only ansver that from the petitions and returns the Assembly has received from man\ quarters, itapjiears that t^^erc are a vast number of persons in every coruer of Upuer Canada who would wish to have ministers in connection with the Church of Scotland, and ag we are led to believe the majority of them would ; it is not stated « hether they are at pre- lent Seceders or no. Ho ^' are tlie ministsrs appointed among the Presbyterians of the Church of Scotland ? — I believe by election. By whom is the jurisdiction of the Presbytery exercised in the Canadas ? — I am not aware tbat, properly speaki up, there is any Presb;. tery ; there is uhat iscall:d aPresbytery iu con* oection with t! \e Secession, but there is no Presbytery in connection with the Cliurch of Scotland, and I do not think t!iat the Church of Scotland consider tliemselves as having the right of establishing Presbyteries beyond the bounds of the kingdom of Scotland. Is not the Scotch clergyman at Calcutta in connection with the General Assembly of ' Scotland ? — There is something anamolous in that constitution, and it is rather conceived to be departing from tite strict practice of the church. z r I : t r* 1 til- {i. vs :« .«•' -=^» <. !M .imm* F'^., |||) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELEUT COMMITTEE The R«T. Mobert AUer, 1 Jul/, 1828. Mar lis, 1 • . die Juln, 1828. The Eev. Itobert Aldir, railed in ; and Examined. You have acted as one of the inissionai'ics of the British Wosleyan Conference in Ca- nada ? — I have. Are you acquainted with the c'rcumstanccs of the Wcsleyan Methodist connection in Upper and Lower Canada ? — I ana very well acquainted with their circumstances in Low- er Canada, and partially acquainted with their 8tat« in Upper Canada. Can yon state what the number of Wesleyan ministers at present in Lowtr Canada is ? —There are nine. Are those all of them natural bom subjects of the King ? — They are all natives of the United Kinprdom of Great Britain and Ireland. By whom are they employed, and under whose direction do they act ? — They are em- ployed by the British Conference, a body that is reco^ized in a deed enrolled in the High Court of Chancery in Eiif^iand, and they continue to act under the direction of that Conference during the whole period of their missionary labour. From the peculiar natuie of our discipline, the conduct of every minister abroad is as well kuown to the Conference at home as is the conduct of any of our ministers in England. In whttt way are the Wesleyan Missionaries in Lower Canada set apart to t!'e work of the ministry ? — By the imposition of hands and prayer, after thev have been ex- amined three several times respecting th^^ir general knowledge and theological attain- ments, &c. Arc they entirely devote 1 1 to their profession as Missionaries, or are they engaged also in any secular employment ? — They are wholly devoted to tie work of the ministry ; they are not allowed even to keep a school for their own private emolument, whatever instruc- tion they give to the rising gcueriition is wholly gratuitous. From what sources do they derive their income ? — From the voluntary contributions of the people amongst whom they labour, aud the British Conference. Whiit is the average amount of income of each minister, and upon what principal is it regulated ? — A married Missionary is allowed a fnmished dwelling-house, and a snra of about a liindred guineas per annum ; if he have three children he is allowed 351. additional for his c iWren, and so on in projjortion to the number of his family. Then are th« Committee to understand that the British Conference annually expend a sum to cover the deficiency of the voluntary contributions of the people in Canada ?— They do. Cau you state what sum is generally expended by the British conference for the support of the mission in Canada? — From 5001. to 7001. in support of our mission in Lower Canada. Have each of those ministers a chapel at which they perform service ? — Yes ; and with the exceptions of the ministers stationed at Quebec and Montreal, whose labours are chietly confined to those tw o places, our Missionaries in tlie country preach on the average to five congregations weekly, and frequently travel from 50 to 70 miles. What is the number of chapels or school-houses in Low er Canads, which arc used for the purposes of public worship in your connection ? — I think we have 10 chapels in Lower Canada, and probably between 4o and 50 other places in which we usually perform Divine Service. Can you state the number of the members in your societies, and the number of those who generally attend your congregations ? — We have about J, 500 members in our societies in Lower Canada, and our congregations probably amount to between 5,000 and •,000. Do T^ Tcnce in Ca- jntributions of ON THB CIV16 GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 2f>7 The Rpr. Hoh^ti AliUr, id tK}kJJi:7Jiil»"i ^(» I f.l itl ti-»ww»i »?-l V* Oo voufind tliftt considerable numbers, cxclusiro of those .5,000 or 6,000 attend occa- tionally, thou«ft> b«>loaj^ii<( to other deuuminations V — Tiiey do occasiormliy. In wtiat maniicr are tho chanebt and places of public worship erected V—B* t'lo volnn« tary contribntions oft*ie people who sometimes involve themselves in pecuniary ilirticulties' i J,iiy,i8i«i. inerectiujfpUces of worship, our ciiapel at Montreal cost between +,(MJOl. and j.ODOl. and t IP expense was defrayed entirely by the people tliere. Do you conceive there is an abundant supply of reli^rious instruction for tlie demands of the people V — No, I do not conceive t'lere is a snfKcicnt supply ; t ere is not a sutKcient supply <»f Wesleyan Missionaries in Lower Canada. VVhat do you conceive to be the rejison of that ?— The want of pecuniary means. Tlie monies raised by the Methodist connection in Entrland for missionary purposes are appro- priated for the support oi' Missionaries in Ireland, in Western and .Southern Africa, and ID the East and West Indfes, as well as in North America. The reason w\\\> we wish to obtain a portion of the clergy reserves is not for our private emolument ; but that we may he enabled to extend our missionary operations in Lower Can.ida. Have not the Wesleyan ministers been particularly active in the eastern townships of Lower Canada ? — Yes, and with the exception of the clerj^vmen of the Churc i of En;>'|and, there are no other ministers connected with any ecclesiastical body in England that preach in those townsliips. Do you conceive that if the Wesleyan ministers were withdrawn from the townships, the Cliurch of England would be capable of suppl^'inp them with clergy ? — No, i thiiiK not, end this is the opinion of the Governor General,^ from wl ose letter to ine, which I receiv- ed a few days before I left the province, I beg' permission to read an extract : — " W e all know, (iiis Lordshin observes,) that the Established Church cannot provide clerfrymen at all places where they are required and desired, in that diificnltv the Wesleyan ministers have rendered most valuable services, and I think they are qualiKed and capable to ren- der mucb/^: ;* tM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE I I V IJy - horn I aa th« supply of Wetileyan miniHterM from t e United S «(] 'i — By an a;;roeni(>nt between tlie MftliodUts of Upper Canada and Th* Hf*. American conference ? — Not any of importance. We consider oumelrrii to be one borfy ; Uitb Tt Jl.ler, biit ^'^ (to not deem it ri<(lic that the Methodiiitti of Upper Canada should be under thejurig. A ^diction of a forei^jn eculesiasticaianthority I July, 1HJ8. Then are the cumuiittee to iMidenitaiid tjiat there would be no objection, on the purt of those cou;rrej;ation», provided yon had the meniis of furniH injj minit«ten<, to receirethnxn niiiiiMterHNeiit by t e Dritis conference fully as readily as tliose went by the cuntVreiire of New York ? — T c conference of the (/nited State* doeM not now nendany miiiiNten* fo Upper Canada. Tiie people are very anxious to be supplied with ministerM fn»m this country; and we have the most pressini; petitions sent to us annually for EnirlLsh mi. uisterH. States been nrohibit- tlio Mcthoditit con- ference in the United States. Then you consider that it istho desire oft e methodists in Upper Canada rather to lave ministers furuii-hiidb. the British conference than by the conference of the United States? — Yes, I have reason to believe that is the case. And that it is from the wish of the people themselves that the Methodist ministers of Iho United States are no^* prevented from coming into Upper Canada ? — Yes, from the iutlu- ence of British feelin;;. Do you conceive that the Colonial (iovernment in Upper Canada lias manifested any desire for the extension oftlie British Wesleyan Methodists in that province ? — I believe there are documents in the Colonial Otfice addressed to Karl liathnrst and to Mr. Huh* kisson from Sir Perejfrine Maitland, wliic i will show that His Excellency is very anxious that the number of British Methodist ministers should be increased as far as possible in Upper Canada; and I understand that he wrote home, a thart time a^o, recommending that pecuniary aid minf t be allowed us for t at purpose. Do you consider that under the 31st of the late Kin^ the Wesleyan Method'sts have any claim, accordineMid»»N, eithpr the childnm of our nifiiil>erH must ((row up with lut recoiviujf Hnhirt .intfr, from us (v'liristiau baptlKm, and thebotlips uf our dfnNiMcd frifud-s reiniiiu Mitliout thoriti*, * ^ nt'Chriittiiui burial, or wo mujtt expose ouncl yen to a very severe ptMulty iu peribruiiii:; i Juty, is.d. thoM dutiefi. Is t ere any proviuciul statute which, according to \our interpretutioa of it, would give toil the rigtit of reyfiHtry —There is. HitN ther(> been a ditforenoe of opinion aibonipster ; he has decided that the Methodists and Dissenters are not Protestants, and that as the Act merely provides for the celebration of those services by Protestant niinis- ten, we are not entitled to perform them ! Judge Ileid and his associates ui the Court, ofKing'sBench inthe district of Montreal, are of a ditTereut opinion ; asa proof of which Judge Ueid for some years granted our missionary in Montreal a legal register. Was there not a bill passed in the Provincial Legislature fur the purpose uf remedying this inconvenience ? — There was. Are you aw ire of the grou..ds on which the Royal assent wis refused to that bill ? — I believe it was not on account of any objection to the principle ofthe bill, but on account of some iuforraalitieii connected with if. Would it be satisfactory to t e Wester ans in general if a short Act were passed, being I di'daratory Act of t;ie intentions ofthe disputed statute of the 35th of (leorge the 3d ? — it would. Upon what footing does this matter stand in England ? — We are allowed to administer the sacrament of baptism, and to bury the dead in England; and we keep regular registers of our baptisms and burials. Have you similar rights in the other North American colonics ? — In all the North A- merican colonies we are allowed to administer the sacrament of baptism, and bury the dead; and in the province of Nova Scotia we are allowed also to solemnize marriages; v% have always enjoyed this privilege in Nova Scotia as all otiier ministers of the gospel do there. Do you know wliether the law is different, or whether the construction put upon it is different ? — The law is different. Have there been any disputes with regard to burial-grounds in Canada, between the Church of England and the Wesleyan Methodists, as to solemnizing the rite of burial, as there liave been between the Cliurch of England and the Presbyterians ? — No, we have not been involved in any such controversy. You have stated, that the Wesleyan Methodists in Canada, would be dissatisfied if any portion of the clergy reserves should be applied to the Presb , terians ; are you not of opinion that they stand upon a different footing with yourselves seeing that t ey are one ofthe chun h^'s established and recognized by law ? — We know nothing of tlie Presby- terian Church of Scotland as an Established Church out of Scotland : we view it as a Mrictly local establishment, and we think that its ministers have no right to enjoy any peculiar privileges in any of His Majesty's colonies because they belong to the Cimrch of Scotland. "^ ,,.,,-•,. Do you consider it as confined to Scotland ? — Yes. In what light do you view the Presbyterian Church that is established in Ireland ? — lam aware that there are a few Presbyterian Churches established in tl^e North of Ireland, but I am not awar* that the Presbyterian Church is established in Ireland generally. Are you aware that at one time the.v had possession of the tithes in the North of Ireland ? —Yes ; but they never were in possession of such a privilege in Canada, nor in any ofthe North American colonies ; it would be felt as a gri^ance u we were to l>ave two ecclesias- tical hierarchies endo 'ed in the colonies. In what way do you supnose that that borthen wonld press upon you ? — We mean, that I if the Pi^sby terian Churcn, as well as the Church of England, were to be established and endowed in the colonies, there would be two Ecclesiastical establishments is the country, wbick other denominations would be very much dissatisfied with. ■ r.!n.i,\ .„. tw .(» !v 1- ♦ <• .100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELFXT COMMITTEK Unhi '■'A Yon Krp r)wnr<>, tbiit in fa«<» thoM two MtnltliMhtnenfA wero pfp«;tHil th#>v would not lit* «rt Al'lfr, pniit ont»*"tlh' tiiXMK ii'Mtn th«« oomitry 't — No, tlij-y woiiM iiof ; Imt thi' Wi-nlevHii iIimui- ■-^ iiiiiimtion^taH iiiniu'li v'i'<'i>'<''' imii'bi'r of miiil»»t«»rM iiiul ot'or};iuii/<'il riuirrlirM in Caniiiij) 1 July, J»]U»t. flinii t i> l'n'Hl»yt«»riftiiH luivi', and Ht least iIoim* lut niucli to pioinofr tht> ri'liifioiiN hii«I mora! iinprovi'inciit of th«' pi'0|il«' ; tlwir loulty in well liiiown, it in a<-li| in thiH \v\. tiT, hikI lin« b»'«i Hrkiu)w!»Ml/»'(l upon varioUN oc«;uNioiiN bv tlic ciiftmMit (>ov(>rii<)r>4 in Jiritinh Nort i Ami'rica ; iiini we Nhoiild !»«> (liMMatinticil if the l'r»'nliyl»'riniiH wen' to Im* plac- ed in moro f.ivoiiraldi' (iirruinKtaiH'fH tlmii «<• are, as worauiiot 4-oiifoivf><»f any (jood rlHini that tlie* have to tlio eiijoynuuit of any privih'i(« iu tl>«> col« to Mhicli' we are not entitled. Are there any membern of >our persiiuHJon ineither of the Leiri«tlativo AK V Tliere are in the Lower House of l.'pper (.'aiiada; and Ncveral of tliem are in the cointni.s. Mvonof the peace, and hold <'oinuiiKsious in the IVoviiu^al Militia. Are anv of them either in Lf-jfinlative or the F-Aenitive CoiiimmIn ? — I believe not. Are there any IVesb . terians in either Comieil ? — I do not know; I Nliuuld wishtu state, that wo conitider ourselveH as a branch of llio (,'lmrch of Kii<;land both at home and abroad. The Rii'ht Ilonoupublo Robert John Wilmnt Ilurton, a Member of tlie Commlltw examined : ABE you of opinion that under the Act of 31 Oeo. 3 c. .'Jl, thr AsKcmbly of Lower Ripht Hon. fanH,)^ M'ere leifally entitled to appropriitte the dutieH collected under the 1+ (leo. .'1, r Jt. J. H'. Horluti IVl l» 86 V I am of opinion that they were not lejjally entitled, for the f< >re were two ActH passed in the the year ITiA; relating to t.ie (« followiiin- reasons ; first, (there were two ActH passed in the the year 17'J4, relating to t.ie (Jovernnient of raiiadii, taeone the 14 Geo. 3,c. J43; the other the 14 Oeo. .'J,c. hS ;the Act, of the31 (ieo. 3 c.lil, commonly called the Quebec Act, npeciHcally repeals no niiirh of the Act of 14 (loo. 3, tf. 83, iui in anv manner relates to the appointment oftheCoiin«;il for the aftairK of the ^aid Province of Quebec, &c. it appears to me to be conclusive that that partial repeal involvt-tl t e continuance in full force of the rerwrtiWer of those Acts, the latter of which imposed the duties Til question. Secondlv,t e 46th clause of the 31 Geo. .3, c 31, vhich is mainly founded on the 18 Oeo. 3, c. 12, commonly called the Declaratory Act, enacts, " That nothinjf in this Ait contained shall extend or be construed to extend to prevent or alfect the execution of any law \ or repeal any such law or laws, or any part thereof, or in any manner to obstruct the execution thereof," — a reference to the rates contained in the 14 Geo. 3, e. 88, ^ ill show that they remilate the commerce to be carried on between the colony and other parta of the v orld, accordiuf^ to the phrase employed in the 46th clause, they impose a duty of 3d on every gallon of brandy and other spirits, of the manufacture of of otiu'r coloiiifH wliirli |MmMeHNed Lc- ' 1 ' fbLitun'ft at the p«>riod of |iaitNiiila|>M«>dHiiic«* that Divlanitorv Art h'hm paMstMl.iii which diii> ..hv<> not Immmi l«viod, and even rinuitted to tliin roiiiitry, and di'poHiti'd in tli« K\ch..'<|iii>r, which have bern raised uiuler Hrilioh Actd ])asHvd ptivr tit the /hr/anitnnf Art. 1 ItPft leave t«» call tt'e attention of the Coniinittee to the case of Jamaica. Tee ( '(MinniHNifMicrH of (!n.stoms iu Jamaica haveaniuialljr remitted to this country, diitieH levied under the followini; Acrn ; I take the Hchudiile as it u;i|>earH in the year lH->:^ ; dnticH per Act ,'> rh. )i, .i'.'il Ihit. «>d. ; ditto, (i ii«o. 2, iMid 4< Oeo. li, X'A,'2:ji Hp. I>[d. ; if the <'onNtrMrti(»n ctnitended for by the AiiHembly of Lower ( 'anad i he le^'al, it in quite clear that all tlic.ie duti«H have been ille- irally tranHmittod from the period of t e Declaratory Act. Foiirthh, because the Oolonial Actx which were in force prior to the Declanitary Aet, and w'>ich directed tlie appropriation of inonieH other than h. the Le^iHlutnre, htive MtiUcun- tinued in force, iiotwith.«taiidin;r tlie l)i>claratory Act ; this fact anpearx to me to att'ord by nimlosfv a proof in defence of tlie <-onstriiction for w ich I contend. 1 would call the at- tention of the Cominittee to the liahania Act, p.iMMed in tlie Hth Declaratorv Act, but law otlicersof tlie rrown );ave an opinion in February 18*^1, tliat a ei't;iin suspending ActM had terininateil, under which, t in Act hiid been repealed, it inii.si. he crowi«»on towards defraiinjf the same," Ike. It is evident here, tl:at the validity ot the 1 4th Geo. 3, is admitted under the praseolofjy of this Act,it has admitted that the funds raised under it are legullif appropriated', and under this Act of the local (tovernment no difficulty whatever existed, except that they practically reduced the estimate of the chari^es placed by the F3\e rutive Government upon t'le Crown revenue, by diminishin^r the proposed g'rant of i.'U5,()02 Is. 8d. to a sum not exceedinir .^G1,6I1 7s. lid. thereby leaving a deficiency of £'6yi90 13h. 9d. ; this sura of Jb'3,3n4) 13s. 9d. had reference to eertain items specifically objected to by the Assembly, which items lad been specially changed upon the Crotra wvenue ; but an the Assembly voteil this sum collectively, and not by items is it was necewwtrify left to the discretion of the Lieutenant Governor to deal with that deficiency as he raiffht think be«t. The simple fact bcin^, that under that Act, Jt'3,39U 13s. 9d. deemed to be necessary for the public service, as would appear b> the Lieutenant Governor's estimate, was not voted by ' the Assembly. With respect to the manner in which that deficiency was practically met, the iSecretary of State (Lord Bathurst) abolished some of the Otfices included in this 4,'3.390 and transferred others to the territorial revenues of the Crown, over which the Assembly did not so directly, at least, claim to have any jurisdiction ; it is perfoctl. true that in the first instance, Lord Bathurst remonstrated Bji^aiDst the conduct of the Lieutenant Oover- ' ' '.- -■'«■- nor ,\ ! \ ■ \ ''f \ W1 L.ifei t .7- ' S09 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Right Hon. Qor in having' sanctioned this Act ; but it wai *••'• J^' ^;"'"*** did not maiutaia the integrity of the Crown i ' ' ' to tlie lioyul instructions. lu the succeedii was under the impression that the words of the Act u revenue,and consequently that it was contrary lioyul instructions. lu the succeediuv year I8;J6, the Assembly, with a view of 7 July 18287* obviatiajf the coastruction of the Act of 1825, as 8anctionin<|: the iuteg;rity ofthe Crown reve- ' uue, passed tlie following resolutions before they commeuced the vote of suppl. for that year. Resolved, tir^t, That the aupropriatiou of any sums of money already levied, or which hereafter may be levied on His Majesty's subjects in tliis Province, otherwise than such ap- plicatiou is or may be directed to be made by the express provisions of law, is a breach of the privileges of this House, and subversive of the (iovernraent of this Province as estiiblished by law. Secondl., That no la^v imposing duties or taxes on His Majesty's subjects in this Province, providing funds for the defraying the expenses of His Majesty's Civil Government, aau those of the administration of justice, or of the Le;(islature in this Province, can be held to confer upon any person a power or rig t of applyin>r tiie monies t lence arising, or making a special appropriation and distributioa thereof, without tlie consent and authority of the Legislature. Third, That the suras granted and appropriated for anj^special service should be applied by the Executive power only to defray the expenses of that service, and that the application of any surplus olfunds to uses for wbicii thoy were nut appropriated, is a misapplication of the public monev, a breach of public trust, a violation of tue rightsand privileges of this House, and subverMive oft e Go vernniout of this Province as establis ed by law. Fourth, That this House will liold personally responsible His Majesty's receiver general of this province,and every other person or persons concerned, for all monies levied on His Majesty's subjects in this pro- vince, M hicli lua , have legally come into his or their hands, and been paid over by him or ' them, under any authority v^hatsoever, unless such payments be or shall be autho- rized by an express provision of law. " I am not enabled to state to the Committee whether tlie bill of 1826 Vvas verbatim the same as t e Ai^t of 1825, because the bills are not sent over to this country ; butt at bill was amended by the Legislative Council fort e purpose of unequivocally maintaining in its terms the integrity of the Crown revenue raised under the 1 4 Geo. 3 ; and tlie consequence of that amendment was, that the Assembl . re< fused to proceed » ith it upon its return from the Upper House, and th« supplies were in consequence not voted. 1 must not omit to represent most distinctly to t e Couimittee, fivst, tiiat the manner in which the proceeds ofthe 14 Geo. 3, M'ere disposed of, were uni- Wrmly laid before the Assembly, » ho had consequently the power to remonstrate agaiust ' any ofthe items included t erein,or b> dimiuis iug the general supply, practically to utfect tiie appropriation of that revenue ; but the Assembly were determined to do nothing less than contend fort le legalitr of tie appropriation of that revenue by themselves, and that construction was considered as one to be agreeable to ti>e laws of England, wit i liberty to all persons who may think themselves aggrieved by the sentence of such courts, in all civil cases, to appeal, under the usual limitations and restrictions to Us ia Our Privy Coun- cil." Ill what respect do succeeding Acts of Parliament affect the proclamation of 1 7C3 ? The Act of tlie 14th Geo. 3, v.b'.i, wa.s intituled, An Act for the making more cffiectual provision for the Government of t^ c Proviuce of Quebec iu North America. Under the 4th Clause of that Act all former provisions made for that province were to be null and void after t e 1st of Maj^ 1775 ; And with reference to t e proclamation of 1763, that clause proceeds as follows : " and whereas tl e ]lrov.^ion8 made by tlie said proclamation in respect to t e civil goveniment of the said Province of Quebec, &c. &c. have been found upon experience to be inapplicable to the state and circumstances of the said Province, &(;. &c. ; Be it enacted, That the said proclamation, so far as the same relates to the said Province of Quebec, and the commission under the authority whereof ih<« government of the said province is at present administered, and all oidinai.ce and oidiiiaiiies, &c. &c. and all commissions, &c. &c. be hereby revoki'd, aunuUed and made void." The clauses of the Act from four to nine, cont.iin provisions aflecting the Frenih Canadians; and then the ninth clause is as folio s : " Provider always, that nothing in this Act contained shall extend or be construed to extend to any lands that iiave been granted by His Majesty or Khali hereafter he granted b, His Majest , i is i eirsand successors, to be holden infree and common soccage." It appears to nie, therefore, that as far aiu affects the English popula- tion resident in tlie townsliips, the proclamation of 1763 was to be in mil f<)r«:e as rcKpect- ed them. In the Act of the ,?lst (ieo. c. 31, commonly called the Quebec Act, the Act of the 14th (ieor^e 3, c. 83. just quoted, was only repealed as far as relates to the appointment of a council for Quebec, consequently the rest of its proviNJons must be considered to remain in force, and be esta- blis ed by an . law or laws \»liich may be made by His Majesty, his heirsor 8nccess*■. IL.rioa M v. .>-*-^ — ^ 1 July, 18^it. I- M ' \'\ Kfi; H t ^i' J04 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COiMMITTEE ni(jlit Hon. the 6th Goo. TV. c. 69 commonly called tbe Canada Tenures Acts, which declares t'lat R. J. IVJJtirionVAndu holdeii in free and common soccaj^e in Lower Canadaare to be subject to the laws of M- r Eiijrland.asitappoaistoraein the strictest accordance withthe43d cbiuse of the 31st of the I *^ ^Iate Kiujj, when that clause is taken with reference to precedinjf le<^islatioD ; which clause 1 July 182a. ag already cited provides absolutely that grants in Upper Canada, shall be made in free and common soc(ra<»'e ; but with respec*^ to Lower Canada t ere was a power to the local I.oijis- lature to modify that enactment if it should be deemed expedient by the Legiiilaturc and by the ('rown. What is the substance of the Act which has provided for an increase in the number of representatives in the Legislative Assembly of Upper Canada V — The preamble of this Act, passed 7th of Marcii 1820, is to the following effect ; " Wheroas from the rapid increase of tlie population of this province the representation t' ereof in the Commons House of Assembly is deemed too limited, so much of the several laws now in force iis regulate the number of representatives to serve in the Provincial Parliament are repealed." It then proceeds to cuact that counties containing 1,000 inhabitants should be represented by one member; when they contained 4-,000 inhabitants, bv two members; that(H?rtaiu towns, w en they contained I,(U)0 souls, should be represented by one member ; that the population shoiild be ascertained by the returns of the several town-clerks ; that whenever a university should be established in the province it should be represented by one member. The governor to issue writs of election, as provided, by the 31st of the late King. The Act not to lessen the number of any members now returned for any couuty.nortomakeitnecessary to issue any new writs of election on acountof any increase ofinhabitants since the last election. Counties containing less than 1,000 souls to be at- tached to the next adjoining county, having the smallest number of inhabitants. No per- son qualified to vote in a town to be allowed to vote for a count in respect of the same property. Inhabitants of towns sending a member not to be included among the inhabi- tants of counties, for the purposes of this Act. What was tlie substance of the bill for uniting the Legislatures of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, which which was brought in and withdrawn in tbe session of 18^2? — So much of the 31st Geo. c. 31, was repealed, as provides a Legislature for each of the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, henceforth to be one joint Legislative Council, and one joint Assembly for both provinces. The joint Legislative Council was to consist of t'e existing members of both Councils, with a power for His Majesty from time to time to summon such other person or persons as His Ma- jesty, his heirs and successors, should think tit. Such summons to be carried into effect under the enactment of the 3l8t Geo. 3. The governor was to have the power of appointinfr and removing the speaker of the Legislative Council ; the joint Assembly vas to consist of the present members of tlie assemblies of Up}K>r and Lower Canada, and continue till the 1st of July 1824, unless sooner dissolved. The Act of Upper Canada of the fith (Jeo. IV. was to continue in force, and to be applied, subject to any alteiation in the Union Bill, to the representation of the said province of Upper Canada in the joint Assembly, in like manner as it had been ap]>licable to the special representation of Upper Canada, prior to the passing of the Act. The^/vernor of Lower Canada was authorized to erect iie>'' counties out of the townships, such counties to be represented in the Assembly, or any old county no" returning one memlier to be represented by two members. It was provided at the same time that no sub-division of any counties now erected, or to be hereafter erected withiu eitlier of the said provinces, except as hereinbefore provided with respect to the townships, shall extend or be construed to extend to encrease the number of representa- tives for such counties. It was also provided that the number of representatives for each province should not exceed 60. No Act to alter the number of representatives was to be passed unless sanctioned by a majority of two thirds of the Legislative Assembly, as well as the Legislative Council. The provisions of the 31st Geo. 3, respecting elections were to remains in force. The qualifications for a member was to be of the value of £500 sterlinjr of real property, and an oath was prescribed to ensure that qualification, and persons swearing fidsely to be guilty of perjur\. The trials o.^' contested elections were to be the same as under the Slst of the King. The Governor v as to have the poMer of summoniuj? two members of the Executive Council in each province to the Assembly, m ho were to sit- with power of debating therein, and with'all other powers and" privileges and immunities, •xcept that of votinjfi The united L^fislature was to meet once in every twclv« months, ■. ^j; 'EE declares t^at :o the laws of lie 31st of the which (;lau!te ide in free and le local Lepis- egii^latutc and crease in the lanada V — Tho vt ; " Wheroai 1 1' ereof in the 1 laws now in Parliament are ants should b<} ;wo members ; y one moraher ; m-clerks ; that represented by he 31st of the iturncd for any of any inrrea.H« souls to be at- itants. >'o per- ect of the same lonsr the inhabi- f the Provinces ithdrawn in the as provides a lienceforth to be ices. The joint Is, with a power ons as His Ma- ■ried into eft'ect verofappointinir Jy was to consist [nd continue till ofthcfith Geo. ; the Union Bill, .ssembly, i" like •anada," prior to Id to erect nc«' ;mhly,or any old It was provided to be hereafter ■d wit I' respect to her ofrepresenta- [ntatives for each itives was to be jembly, as well as elections were to lof£500 sterlinjT, Ron, and persons |ns M-eretobetk ;r of sumnioniu;? who were to »it- and immunities, •y twolv* months, ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. m OD. Horton P. and to continue for five >car8, till the period of a poueral election : majority of votes to de jjj^^, n cide. The oaths prescribed by the 3) st Geo. 3, for the members of the Council and ^ j. ||r. i/o Assembly, to be taken; the declaration of tiie Royal Assent to be rejfulatel by the enact- W. P. mens of the 31st of Geo. 3 ; all laws in force at tlie time of the passing of the Act within- r—-'^ > the said provinces, or cither of t( em, or any part thereof, to be unchanged, and the pri- i July, \9Stu. vilejres of members to (continue precisely the same. It was further enacted, t^ at from the pe- riod of the passing of tliis Act all written proceedings whatever should be iu the EDf>li8h language, and at the end of 15 years after the passing of the Act, ail debates in either House to be carried oil in English, ^nd in no other language; that nothing in this Act, nor any Act to be passed by the joint Legislature, nor any resolution or other proceeding of tho Ijfgislative Council or Assembly, was to affect or be construed to aft'ect the free exercise of the religion of the Chnrcli of Rome, or to prejudice such accustomed dves and rights as the clergy of the said Church might hold, receive andenjov, subject to ti.e King's supre- macy as recognised in tlic Act of the 31st of Geo. 3, and tho clergy and curates now per- t'orraing clerical duties, or who hereafter, with the approbation aud consent of His Ma- jest v, expressed in writing by the governor, &c. should be duly collated, appointed or in- ducted to any parish, v. ere to continue to hold, receive and enjoy their accustomed foes and rights as fully asthe'\ were entitled to do under the Act of tiie 3l8t of the King. AH thcreniainingprovisionsot the Act of the 31st of the King were to be in force. Were the objections that w«!re made to that bill chiefly to the principles of the bill, or to liny part of tho details ? — There were objections made from bot.i tlie Cauadas, but more especially from Lower Canada, against the principles of the bill ; there were also oh- jc'tions made to some of tlie details. Will you have the goodness to point out to the Committee w!iat parts were objected to ? It was objected t^at the principle prescribed for the representation would necessarily give a greater proportion of represeutatiou to Upper Canada, inasmuch as the Act for increas- ing the represcutativesof the commons of that province according to the scale of popula- tion, was to be still iu force ; v.hcreas no Act existed in Lower Canada to the same effect, coiisequcnlly the enactment of any legislation to tuat effect in Lower Canada would de- pend upon the united sanction of the two Assemblies after the period of union. There was an objection also made to the qualifications, and to the introduction of two members of the Executive Council, as debaters and not as voters ; but t'.e enactment which prescribed t latall written ])roceedings were immediately to be in the English language, and that af- ter 15 years, all debates were to hein English, was considered as affording a pretty conclu- sive indication that it was intended progressively to render the united province English as to its institutions. Have you any observation to make upon that provision of the bill ? — It is impossible to (lonv that the intention of that bill was to realize the expression employed by Mr. Pitt iu 1791, namely to assimilate the Canadians to the language, manners, i abits, aud above all the laws aud institutions of (ireat Britain. Did not Mr. Pitt accompany that declaration by saying, that he only looked forward to such an assimilation taking place, if it could take place with the free will of the French Caua« dluns, and was not the very ground on vvi.ich ho separated the colony into two provinces in order to ensure the French Canadians from tiie possibility of the Government attempting to produce such an assimilation without their entu'e assent aud concurrenco?— The Union Bill was considered to benfecessaryin consequence ofthe inherent defects in the bill of 1791, \i\\it\\ placed tlic two provinces in a state of perpetual collision, from which no escape was anticipated at that time, except through the medium of a Legislative union, — -' and couse- auentiv whatever abstract objections there might have been to that measure it was cousi- (lered as one of permanent public necessity. Butt'ie Committee are not to understand that you represent Mr. Pitt as having desired to assimilate the laws and habits ofthe two populations iu Canada upon any other ground than the entire concurrence of the French population in such assimilation i — I only mean to imply that Mr. Pitt contemplated from the Legislation of 1791 that such assimilation would take place. It', Itaa. part of the objections whicli were not unjustly preferred aiii4' from duties on soods imported seawards, or on the other baud, the carrj iujf into effect the ]>rovi8ion of a Le^^iilative Union. Could a Port be <(iven to Upper Canada by any ot'ser means than by anncxinfr Mon- trcal to that province ? — I am not aware of atiy other geograpliical facility of accom- plishing^ that object. Do you think that the objections to the latter arraiifjement on the part of the Lov.rr C anadians VI ould not be almost as strony as to an incorporatinfj union of tiie two provinces ? ientertain no doubt that very strongobjections would be made by the Lower Canadians a;;aiiist such a proposal, but I repeat, that under t^e relative circumstances of the two provinnis, and the bounden duty of the mother country to act justly between them, I do not myself perceive any otiier tnan these alternatives. I cannot, however, avoid remarkiuj, that should considerations of mutual defence, and a sense of common interest, create a grow- ing opinion in favor of a Legislative union inthet^o provinces, there does not appear to raeto be any conclusive mode of adjusting their interests, with respect to the appropria- tion of their common revenue, other {lian by anindentification of interests, involved in the measure of Union ; but, at the same time, of a iinion which should guamntee to theFreiw^h population their laws and institutions in the seijjneuries, to the extent of preventing' the combined Legislature from voting away tliose laws and institutions, and at the same time should reserve space enough in the unsettled part of tlie province, so as to allow tlie Freiicli population to spread itself within the *p!iere of the operation of the French law. Can the difficulty which arises in adjusting, collecting and distributing tlie customs ro- veoue of goods imported into the St. Lawrence, in your opinion, be better provided for them by the provisions which are contained in the Canada Trade Act? — I do not imagine that, nnderthepresentcircurastancesof the two ptovincos, any mode can be suggested raoro likely to accomplish this object than that wiiich is prescribed uuder the provisions of that Act. Several witnesses have stated to the Committee that, in their opinion, a system of duty and dra\> back might be adopted, and that a system of warehousing, in Lower Canada, foods which should be after ards imported into Upper Canada and pay duty there might e ad6pted, and that either of them would be preferable to the course which has been enact- ed by lavr; were those modes under tl:e consideration of the Colonial Department at the time that that measure was decided upon ?— A variety of suggestions were made to the Co- lonial Depmi'tnient at that peiiod, anditwasfound then, as I believe it "ill be found now, that the Lower Canadians were disposed to t' ink that those facilities might e.\i;;t, and that the Upper Canadians were almost unanimously of a contrary opinion. Mr. EUice in his evidence alludes to certain obstructions which prevented the provisions of the Act called the Canada Tenures Act from being carried into effect, and he refers to instructions which were sent to the local government to carry into effect the provisions ot" the Act of 1822 ; can you infwm the Committee of the nature of those instructions ?— The Executive Council considered the qtiestion only in the abstract, and simply with refe- rence to an equitable valuation of the rights of the Crown, "which the seigneurs miglit wish to redeem ; but the great object of the clause was not only to relieve the seigneurs from the feudal dues payable to the Crown, but also to enable them to free their censitai- res, or sub-tenants, and thereby to introduce generally a system of tenure more favouni' bly to agriculture and to the general improvement of the province. Lord Dalhonsie was therefore instructed to give every enconrajrement to the seigneurs to free those who hold under them, and to make it kiio of grants of laud for non-performance of conditions of settlements stipulated in the letters pa- tent, he has to observe, that of two and a half millions of acres granted in this manner in Lower Canada, not less than seven>eighths remain uncultivated, and therefore liable to re- sumption by the Crown. It is supposed that six millions of acres held under seigneural tenure are under similar predicament, but with respect to this description of Ltnds it is doubtful hew far the Crown will have a right to resume them if the proposed conversion of tenure should take place to any extent. Lord Dalliousie adverts to the expediency an well as the right of recovering sucli immense tracts of lauds for the settlement ot emigrants. He adds, the obsolete course of proceeding* which the ancient law of Canada points out for the resumption, both of soccage andselirneural lands, is so incumbered with difficulties, and so inapplicable to the present state of the province, particularly with regard to grants in the townships, thatit is next to impossible for the C'rown to resume its just rights. In conse- quence of this sim'gestion of Lord Dalhousie, that clause >vas introduced mto the Canada Tenures Act whicn provides for ithe formation of courts of escheat. VViiat steps have been taken by the Colonial Office to remedy this evil? — In the 6tli Geo. 4, c. 50, commonly called tlie Canada Tenures Act, the 10th clause provides, that courts of es- cheat shall be constituted in the province of Lower Canada to try forfeitures of uncultivat- ed lands liable toescheat to the Crown. In the \ ear 1826, Lord Bathurst sent instructions to Lord Dalhousie to appoint one of the Inferior Judges to act as commissioner of the court of escheats under the clause of the Act of Parliament. Lord Dalhousie, replied, that the judge had not time to execute tlie duties, and that some other person must be appoint- ed, upon which Mr.- Husk isson wrote out instructions to lim, authorizing him to ap- point a person competent to perform the duty. It is to be recollected that no fund whatever esists, unless votea by Parliament, for carrying into effect thi.j principle of escheat. The difficulties attached to can viug into effecta satisfactory principle of escheat M'ere considered togreat, that when Colonel Cockburn 'was sent out inspectorandcommissioner, he received separate instructions to communicate with the Governors of all our North American Co- loaics, and especially with Lord Dalhousie, for the purpose of reporting to the Governmpnt i !f ■!'r , .11 n m •Vi i hJ.. :i ^1 w J SD8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE ttizht ». J. r. M. 1 July. Hon. ** ''vhich l)e liad effected in l.isowu case with the Cro- n. What are the difficulties whic'i prevent that arranjrement beino: carried into efTt'ct '; — I consider the diiuculties tiiat interpose upon t. at point are t'ae entire indisposition of'llie French population to avail themselves of this permission, and in point of liict it is a per- mission which is only available on the part of the Euirlish, . But Mr. Ellice, w!io was very anxious to avail himself of it, found so manv difllciiltirs in his way, that he was obiiffed to give it up ; and one of the ditliculties that he stjites is, the very lar^e fine of one tifthof the value demanded by tlie Crown? — 'Hu' original chiini of the Crown, was one-tifth, but the C!rown, in consideration of the advantaj-e which was expected to accrue from a<,hin^re of tenure, remitted that one-fifth, or 'iO per cent for five per cent. Do you think it advisable, seeinpf the diiuculties that still exist, for the Crown to contnict its demands still more ? — If the seij^ueur would contract his demands upon liis suh'tenant at the same time that the Crown contra('t its demands with respect to liimself, I mii^ht be disposed to answer that I think it would be very desirable; but I do not «u- derstand upon what principle of fairness it is, that whil* ti.e Cro>'.n on tlie one hand is to release the sfiii^neur, tin.' seigneur is to maintain his full rights with respect to his suh- tonant. It was considered at the time, by all the ii:}'«>rmation which could be obtiiiied by Government, tl;->r a much "•reater sacrifice was matie by the Crown to tho soigiiew", than the seigneur nrtdt) to his sub-tenant ; and it did not follow, that supposing tho Crowa had remitted altogether its demand, that that would have facilitated in any degree the conversion of the- tenure on the part of the seigneur with respect to his sub-tenant. Do you think it advisable for the Crown still to contract its demands in onliT tofaoilitate the improvement of the colony by the change of tenure ? — If it were proved by |« a^sumptire evidence that the effect of a contraction of the demands of the Crown T ^ 'IB practically to ellect the release of this sort of propeit > , in that •■ase I should say it i«oiihl he worth while for the Crown to make a sacriiice ; but it was considered X. t' ' ai.uigenient was as fair and equitable, and as likely to produce tlie effect, as auy acijuifiHvK'Wl .;ould bo : it is impossible not to perceive that if ttiis change of tenure were to take pLt'.-e '.-xtensively in the seigneuries, and t!ie consequence of it M'ere to be to intro- duce the Kttgiiiih law into those lands of wliich the tenure »• as commuted, it would pro- iag a great deal of confusion in having property iutcrmixedulteruativel)' us it were, and having a different lawapplied to it. Do I OS TitE CIVIL r.OVRllNMRyf or CANADA. 9o5 Do yon tliiiiU tli.it vny insfnictions conM be Hv**" to ninUp this rhanjo of t«'«uro rtore ■, „, . >• ,., • 11 'J T •! .^ .!.• • 111 • 1- Iiienf Mull, practu'Hiile f — 1 certainly Jiia not aware that instructions could be given to mukc i^ uioro ^{_ jjy H^rioii l)ii(ctic:il)li\ jl. l». t!onlil tlift Art 1)0 so aii!(>ii(U'i] ns to faoiIif;it<» tlic pxn' an?ro ?— I ! nvo only to repeat,, '^ » t at I coiisidcr tliat tiie ailvaiiti'fo of tliis iicruiission will oi'.iv bi^ fakon l>y tin* Knulisli 1 July 18iiS. po.ssossors of proix-rty vit'in tin* scij^niorios ; a'lil I do not imai^iiip that any ji^riMttT fa- lilitics can be ;^ivca than wliataro now yivc'ii ninLr t e iiistrnctions, as conJjiued wilh the' jirovisions of the Act. Mr. Ellice mentioned that an F.nirlish rrceiver is appointed for (''.e province, iiisli/rni- eiit spciirit* hynwij; t.iken in I'iiuiaiid ; m lat rou any information to jjivo to the conunitteu upon t at point V — T- e (JJovernor did not leceive instructions to appro|)riate any duties received under the Canada Trade Act; but under tiie emerj^ency in whicli l.e has been not nnfrequently placed, from the total ces- sation of all supplies, to carry oil the ;;overiunpnt oft e colony, he has drawn upon t* e unappropriated revenue, .ind such a proceeding; is necessarily to be justiiied onli from tlie extreme (litticnlt* and enibarasvment of his situation; the discretion which he lias been compelled to exerciise on sudi occiisioiis hiis received tie sanction of tlie SecretarietJ of State. W ill vou lavclhp froodness to state to the Committee, the circumstances that attended tlieintrodnction of the Alien liill 'f — The object of t' e Upper Province, in desiring that t: e Alien Bill sliould be passed, was for the purpose or enabling aliens (in the strict sense of the term) to sif in t e Loi;is!afure, and of quieting titles; no person could bo leffally entitled to the jtossession of land who was not a natural born subject, or who had not taken the oath of allegiance, and there were a groat many persons who were not quali- lied under those restrictions. Are you aware what proportion of the population of Upper Canada were so situated ?— A very considerable proportion oi t' e population of Upper Canada were subject to this restriction ; and it was necessary to have an Act passed in this country, in the first in- stance, to give effect to an\ local Act that mi^htbe passed in the province for remedying this inconvenience respecting elections. Witit respect to the provisions of the local Act, which the Lieutenant Governor in Up- per Canada was directed to have introduced into ti e Assembly, its provisions were framed with the anxious desire to produce a measure of entire conciliation ; and with respect to the conduct of tlie Colonial department, it is necessary to mention that these instructions, which Ix>rd Bathurst sent out to t' e colony for the passing of a local bill, and which ex- cited dissatisfaction, ncre regulations wliich hud received ihc approbation of a member of the Legislature, who was over in this country more or less in tlio character of an agent for the province, with respect to certain grievances complained of. When those objections wliich w-ere unexpectedly found to exist in the Legislature were made known to t e Colo- nial Department, Lord (Jodericti sent out instructions, upon which a bill was brought in, wliich lias finally settled the question. Were there any essential differences between the bill as proposed by, Lord Bathurst, than that which was proposed by Lord (ioderich, and accepted in Canada? — Undoubtedly; the trincipal distinction was this, that by the bill suggested by Lord Bathurst, all parties owever long they might have been resident, were re i.,i aio MINUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Ri|{hl Hon. necessary, and to consider possession prior to the year 16'iO as itself constituting; a title ; but 1 repeat that it was not expected that any recluuiation would have l)oen ma"|,; If ItJ.iy.Hortonhy the province ajfainst the absence of such limitutiou, or against the appointment of aiu M. I'. gistrv, which was also made a subject of coraplunt. 4 ^' — — ^ Do not you consider the Colonial Ollice as '•esponsiblc for any line of policy lony cop- 1 July i8ii8. tinned by any Governor of a colony ? — Undoubtedly, in ciises which can be characterized as involving a line of policy. With a view to judge what measures should be ad{)|)ted by the Government, is it fcOt necessary that the Colonial Oftice should be well a»are of every thing whivh i)asses between the Assembly of the province and tiie (iovernor V — It certainly is, and for that purpose the Journals of the Assembly are transmitted, accompanied 1/y such comments as tne Governor may think right to aild ; but it does not follow that bills rejected by iU(, Legislative Council should necessarily be made raatt«!r of oljservation Are the measures that have been taken for disposing of the crown reserves sncli as ia your opinion are likely to effect the oJjjcct that is desired 'f — I ditt'er very much In opinion from Mr. EUice with respect to the course that I'as been taken by the Govern- ment for disposing of the crown and clergy reserves to the Canada Company ; he states that "anattem|.t was made by the Government to dispose of all this property to the Canada Company, but the church, always rareful of their interest, did not approve of the price awarded by the commissioners, and which was in fact greatly exceeding its presont value, and that chance of renioviiig part of that nuisance lias passed away, and it is im- possible to avoid observing on the vacillating policy of the Colonial Otfice, which did not insist upon the arrangement being carried through." The principle upon which those lands were disposed of to the commissioners was a principle of general average, and the church, who was bound to consult their o«n legal rights, complained, as I consider justly, that whereas the clergy reserves were the more valuable lands, the average that was taken upon their lands necessarily gave per acre a less amount to them than they wOuId have done if tlie clergy reserves had been taken s|)eeially. Is there any reason to believe that tlie clergy reserves are more valuable per acre than the crown reserves ? — All the rej)orts that have been made to the Colonial Department go to prove that the clergy reserves, which always have been most carefully selected, arc in fact more valuable t' an the crown lauds. In the laying out of a township, wli© has the selection of the clergy reserves ? — The Governor and Council. It is necessary to observe that the seventh appropriated to tlie clergy is appropriated by a statute ; tlie seventh appropriated to the Crown is merely at the discretion of the (^rown. In your opinion will the steps that have been taken to provide for the alienation of the clergy reserves be sufficient for ti'at purpose ? — The committee are anare that a bill has passed, enabling the Governor and Council in Upper Canada to settle 100,600 acres of clergy reserves every year, in ray opinion that bill is insufficient to effect the remedy which is so imperioush called for, because I think it would be extremely expedient to allow portions of the clergy reserves to be sold for the purpose of giving value to the remainder for t^e purpose of making roads, and performing settlement duties, and pre- paring them for cultivation, and I am of opinion that if tliose duties n< ere done, and the clergy reserves improved to a certain extent, there would be no difficulty in leasing them on long leases, so as to make them productive at a much earlier period than might be ex- pected. The proceeds of the sale of those reserves, as directed by statute, are to be unpounded, aud the rents and profits applied to such purposes as the Act ofthe31$t Geo. 3 directed, whatever tliose directions may be; but lam alluding to an absohite alienation of paii: of those reserves, for the purpose of applying the money for which those reserves are sold towards the improvement of the remainder, thereby making that remiiiu- der more valuable than the whole was prior to such alienation. Is there any thing in the Act of 1791 that appears to contemplate the expenditure of a sum of money upon those reserves for t!ie purpose of improving them? — There does BOtappear to be the ^lightest allusion to the necessity of capital being laid out upon them before thw could be made productive. It ia evident' that the object of those who frame(l ^« Act of 1791, as well as the regulation respecting the crown reserves, was founded upon ^rm ON TTIi: CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA 311 ;ipon the expectation tl>n!; ririli/atioa wuiiM siirround those waste lands, uud pve raluo to tliem in cousetjiience of tliiit cirrumstance, wlufrcus the actual efffct has been, tliat t'n' existence of those reserves has prevented that very oivilization from takini; place. Itf;^>pour8 that out of tlie Crown lands •[•ranted to the Canada Company, n reservation of.€7oOa year has been awarded for the Scotch Clmrch, vitli what view was tiiat award made ? — Tt was considered hi;;ldy expedient that the Scotch Churcli should have ii provision, uiid whatever mi;rht be t e adjudication withrespect to the clerjfy reserves, it »«as quite evi- dent, that even iftie principle of dividinffthe protits of tliose reserves between the two chur- ches had'been adopted, it would iiave yieliled only X'200per amuira to the Scotch Church, wiiich would be insuflicient to meet tlic demands for their pastors, and consequently tho Secretary of State recommended the appropriation of a part of tiie proceeds of the' pay- ments of the Canada Company to the payment of the Scotch clerjfy. How lonjj is that ^£750 to be continued to the Presbyterian Church ? — Tho .€750 is nccessitrily at pleasure ; but it is to continue as long as the payments are made from tlie Canada Company, which involved a period of 15 years absolutely, aud a probability of rt niiicli lonfj^er period. Mr. Ellicc obaerve3 that " the clerij y reserves ai'e eitlier kept in » state of wilderness, no person beina; liable for road duties throuffh them, and the indus- trious settler beinjf exposed to all the inconvenience of large tracts of forest intervening' between his settlement and a market, or persons have o(;cupied the more improved and 8ccessible parts of them vMthout title." I am of opinion that much of this incouvenicuce, if not all, would be removed by the principle of alieuatiii■ ihizs, Iliin. coloiiii^'* ; aii'l itiNstatPtl that, tliw isdoiip for flic {lurpospof inakiii;; tlio licst Jirriuiycniciit, V/i r/n;( with a v'i'w to tin' duo jim! Mil'rc't'iit M'jijiort ainl niiiiiitt'iiiMicf •»♦' ii I'l'ofi stur.t clrrirv wit in •'• tliv^wiid |noviiiC'v<'ry tlu* ici'.Ik, i»r<»lit.s or "> tsaolrnii'ots wIi'h'Ii mav at any tinio ariso from Mich laml so allolN'tl ai.d ajiiirojiriatril shall ho ap]»H<;'.h!i« solt'Iy to t' « inaiiktenniiof niiil sujiport ofa I'lfni stant »ii-i\;y, and to no ot i'r Uf«(! or pnvj'ov:'." [j- toMiils >)oi it tifii'Ion' i;o rcl'tTciuc is made ly an cmlouid (imn-h ; hot t'lf .'iS'.h oh,t»s • |uo(V(v(.: to oniK f, " t' at it should hi' l.i • fill for Ills Mjijc^ty, ivc. ^i'. to cdiistitntt' and dlrnct within cvcrv tovnsfiip or parisli, \v!.i<-!i now is or h» r.-uCtcr mav l>4? fifM\i<'d, <'0!'-'.it»it('il or rriH^ed v.itliin ritlifrof't «• provinros of Lo'cr or I'lijicr Caiiada, one or n',<.ri' ;>;•.! soii.i..' or rc-tor , <.r j>a».>'>nii;.'o« or rectories accoidinjjto the <'s»:tli!i>!ii:;''; t <;t' the Cli'irch of !'i).'hiv,'1, and lV..rii lici." to liir.c, I'V an insiriininnt uiid r t e (Ircat Sell ofsncli f.vovii;c«', to t-ndou' every suc'.i ]:;ir,son.'».i'' <'i' vc.tory with .'•oianch or si'.cli ;>ait of tlic land.;, <'c<". "nipanin/^'tho <'\nr','y reserves, as if mi'.:' t hcjudi^cd to lie expe- dient nnih'r rl.c 1l:en o.istin'f circunsIii.K^'s of su<'i to-.m^liijior parish then to appropriate." The next el.tns.' at<,4C e.s tiie s-iTiie terni.i and eonilitioiis to tii0.se p;;r.>3ona;;c.< or nctories, and tiiesani;' perfn-i.'.ai.ci' of d.ifics, as r.rc itici.ie';t to a parsonage t!;'i'es ihem undert « jurisdiction of the hishop. Thellst clau.se frive.s a ]»ouf'r ar.d a iroi-t imp(.rt:irit oii' , tothe local l(';;isl:;turc, of varymiror repcalni;'; .sovend pro- visions ti.eri! recited in any Acf or Acts " I io'', Iteiri;; pii.s.sed hy the tvu At.seinldics, s'lould receive tl;e consent (d'llie frown In answer there (ore to tl.n iiiq^nrj', wlietf;er I slioidd not l»e disposed to lecoinriiend caution, le.st any .suspicion shor.'.d arise thiit tljere was an in'<'C.lIoM orestiddisViin;: a doniiiruit cie.irch in tha*coIou", I h.';/ 'cave to he ])prnnited to niahe ttio follouiii'r oliservatiou:; : It is.perfet- ly clear to nie, that the framers of f liat Act entertained the erroneou.s impression tliat tliis .system of resi-rved laud.s would in a short time, comparatively sr>eakinj»', i;rodiice a fund which nii^ht he j^enerally applicalle i'ur the purposes of furui.'- hi Mi'' ii'coine to t' e clev;'/ of the Established (Inircli, m! ether of Enjjlar.d o:' ofHcotlauil, as 1 conceive the words " Protestant cler^'y" to refer to clergy of the two reitornized ostnldishniont-j; and it cppoars to me, from the construction of those clauses, that a special endowment of land, in cases where there wis a demand, for the Church ofEn^fland was provided for, w ereius there vim no su(h provision made fcr th'j ScotC'" Ciiurc ; 1 couseouentl v consider that T am justiiied in iiiferrinjir that the ('iun-ch ofEn.'land was inteudeJ to he so tar a dominant chunvi as to ' ave t: e advantaj^e of lands speciJically appropriated for its maintenance, as contradistinguished from t e Scotch (,'hurch, which was to Have snid.i proportion of tlie profits, rent.s and emoluments of those reserves as, under the discretion of the Executive (ioverumf nt, it might he expoJieut to allot to them. Dot it anp^irs to me quite coiudnsive, t at there was no intention of ucccs.sarl!y estahlitdiing the Church of Enj^laiul as a dominant churo' , inasmuch a.s the 4!st clause gives a power to the local loj^fislatures, with the ccmsent of the Crowu, of alteriaj,' all the l>rovi^^ions which are contained in the oGtli, 37th, 38t'', 3f)th and 40th cliiusos, Would t!ie measures you have suggested <;o to aflect the apjirojiriation of the ch riry lands wlien the\ hccoine improved, according to your plan ? — If tlie committee will -jWow iiiO to re-.state my sugu^e.stion, it is this: that for tlie purpose of relieving the proviiuff frtmi the practical inconvenienre of those portions of reserves vhlch impede the generul cultivation and civilization of the province, I propose that part of it should he alienated f^r the purpose cf making roads, in preparing them for cnUivHtion, and for settlement, At ■ ■ ~ ... 1.! f.: _ there can be no doubt thatultimately,after the lapse i)eth m t e S?('oU!i ,lllt>lltS of tliOM' !it be cxpoJiciit no iiitt'iition of juichasthc 4-!st i.\vu, of alterir.,:,' a 40th cliiusos, im of t!;e th r-y lit.top will alhiw i)ir thf isroviiu fl joJe the genei-ul uld he alienatrd |l for settk'uicut, inasmuch astjie impounded for extended period, iiries, they would lears to me that irposes coutem- iucluding under what detriment y released from \y be sold being of tlie clergy re- ;wltivated landg, should «)ioul«l be first lubjected to snip, and so on till the whole are disposed of. Mr. ElHoe states, in his evidence with regard to these reserves, that there is no ho|>e of their ''>**''/ jjl/ili,^^'"^ sold to the extent of 100,000 acres annually, or even of 25,000 acres bein^f so sold, lie ' 'jyi/p." adds, " They do nothing to eucourajfe settlers ; they neither make roads, build milU^^ ^^ _^ nor lay out one shilling of capital." Now I propose to remedy those defects, by allowing i juiy, i$%g. the absolute alienation of part of those very reserves for the puqiose of making those very improvements. What has been the ol^ect of limiting the quantity of clergy resertes than can be sold in one year ? — From the supposition that th«>re would be no demand for their sale beyond that amount, considering the quantity of land that the Canada Company has to dispose of, and the mass of land that is ungranted. Would not that state of things make the limitation unnecessary ? — The reason is this : if it were not limited, 500,000 acres might be brou'fht into the market and sold for nothing, and therefore it i^'as to prevent ti.e reserves being iiastilf and iniprovidently brought into the market that limitation was made ; but if there was any chance of effecting a sale of those reserves at an earlv period I sliould consider the limitation as most impolitic. The Committee have been informed that tlie eitublishment of the University of Upper Canada, from the government of which all denominations of Protestants, except those that heloii{^ to the Church of England, have been excluded, has materially tended to in- crease the jealousy that already existed in Upper Canada, with regard to the Church of England; can you inform the Committee under what instructions that University was so founded ? — tt was founded by a charter under the Great Seal, and it relieved the students from an obligation to subscribe to the Thirty nine Articles, whiih had been an obligation imposed by tlie constitution of the other North American provinces. In wiiat way is it endowed ?• — It is endowed with land, and an appropriation made to it from the proceeds of the Crown reserves sold to the Canada Company. Has not the Council the appointment of the professors ?'— Undoubtedly. Are not all the members of the Council required to be members of the Church of En- gland ? — Yes. Have the Crown reserves been effectually disposed of, go as to prevent the inconvenience continuing which has arisen from them ? — All tI.e Crown reserves in Upper Canada have been disposed of to the Canada Company, with the exception of those in new townships, fthich have been laid out since the 1st of March 1824. On what footing do they stand in Lower Canada P^— They still remain unsettled ; in fact, the quantity of land that is settled is so much less in the Lower than in the Upper Province, that there is a much smaller proportion of Crown reserves in the one than in the other. Sut nothing in my opinion can be more impolitic than to make any distinction in the six-sevenths that belong to the CroWn. I consider the principle of reservation of a seventh for the Crown to be an erroneous one, as the first object should be the entire settlement of particular districts, rather than a partial and general settlement. Will you inform the Committee of the sums that have been paid by the Canada Com- )any and their appropriation h— The sum wl.ich the Canada Land Company is actually tound to pay in 16 years in annual instalments amounts to £301, 367 stl^- They are compel- ed to lay outon the improvement ofthe block of a million of acres, given in lieu of the clergy reserves, a«ura amounting to ^£43,000. On the 1st of July 1826, the first payment com* menced of £20,000 ; that payment exceeded some ofthe subsequent years, in order to co- ver the expenses of the arrangement. In 1827, £15,000; in 1828, £13,000; in 1829, £13,000; in 18.S0, £16,000; in 1831, £17,000; in 1832, £18,000; in 1833, £19,000; in 1834, £20,000 ; and £20,000 every succeeding year to the end ofthe term, it being at the option of the Company to increase t!)e annuity pyment as it may seem fit, it being pro- dedjthat in the last year the account shall be completely settled, that is on the 1st of July 1834. The appropriation which the Secretary of State recommended to the Lord« ofthe Treasury is as follows : first, the sum of £8,500 per annum for the Civil establishment of Upper Canada, which till that year had formed an item in the estimate annually voted byPurliament;secondly,£l,000 osan annual granttowards the building of a college forthe province; thirdly, the same of £400 as an annual salary to the Roman Catholic Bishop trident in that colony ; fourthh , the sum of £750 as an annual provision for Roman Catholic Priests in that Province i fifthly, the sum of £750 as an annual provision for the QW Freabyteriaa \ m\' ^ti ti It i 1 M '1" ii m 1 '■1 If Sli MINLTES OF EVII):iNCE iJKFOUE SELFX'T COMMITTKE Kighi Tlon. PrRHbyterian Miiiiiiten in coiineRti«ii with tli«> (!hiirch of Scotluud, liavinif nrated pon|rre- ■*"'•'['■ ^'"■'"w gations in the iiroviiioit ; nixthlly, the Hum M' £iOi) wt a penHJon to Colonel Talbot, bn a r«». '^ ' ward for the 8«>rvi(;oii of tlmt onu'vr, and the Ha«'riHce» he had made in Hottling the London I July, litja the Hunt of .4;2,.'^0({ an an annual conij)enAation for tno ptiriod of in lJp|)»»r Catiuda, w. o Uy and Western diHtrictn M!V«n yean* to tlio«e olTicerN of the land-^rantin;; department in I the ailoption of the new re^fulatioBi for (panting; uindM are deorived of their entolnaienlit. The Hum total T)f tlione appropnations amouutii to X H,'ttHi, wnicii leaven uu unappropriated buLince of £T.i3 per annum. Mr. lillice liaii stated that there wnn no occoKion for the (iovernment applyinjf tliis money to the |>avment of the rivil list in lJ(>per (knaiia, an the ordinary revenue received on tho trade of (''anada is nerfectly adeipiate, or Hii<,'ht be made perfectly adequate, to tlie dis- charjfe of tlie civil UKtM of both provinces ; do >ou concur m that opinion ? — I am at a lo^k to understand upon what data Mr. Kllice i^ives that opinion. I believtf notliinnr can ex- ceed tho economy with wiiich the LegiMiature of Upper Canada dlnpenNCs the tinanc<>s under their control ; and I know no fund from M-hicli the payment of the i;8,G(K) annually voted by Pai-liament could befort.icomin)^. How is the clei^y corporation ap|K)inted ? — The clerg'y corporation was established at the recommendation of tne (Jovernor and Kxccntive Coniicil, and appointed by instruc- tions sent out Co the Governor of mni!ttee of the clerfry, of which tlie Bishop shtmld Ite at the head, for t' e purpose of considennt*' the most pioouctive mode of d«alin|2f with the lands ft«t apart for the clerpry, under^. e .'{ I Kt of the Kin<:^, (,uch diii|)»si. tion beinj^c iieceNKarilv limited to leasing, as there is no power of alienation under the Act. By wliat instrument has that c<>rporation been appointed 'r — ^nth an -ipijointnient wonid be made under the i^reat seal of the province, under instructions from the government at home. Is there a copy of tliat instniraent in the Colonial OflScc ? — I believe not, the instru- ment haviuff been prepared in tlie colony. h thi;.n opulationnnd to retard improvement. Whereas the Legislative Coumul is complaiubii oi, on the part of the Fr(!nch Canadian.'^, as being the main source of all the dissensions existing in the province- Mr. Neilson em- ploys these words : " The laws that are conceived by the people to be necessary for the common welfare are rejected by the Legislative C'ouncil, that being chiefly composed of persons who are Aependeut on the Executive Government of the province." The object of the opposition of the Legislative Council to the measures of the Assembly, if Mr. Ellice's view of tlie purposes of that Assembly be correct, is to maintain the interest of the English jiopulatioB, ana to prevent that retardation of the improvement of the country which Mr. Ellice states the French Canadians to co&template. I would wish to show thatthe opinion of the English population is such as I describe, by reference to the fol- ^ lowing paragraph, which appears in the petition to the House of Commons from the toM-n- .ftbips : " That while your petitioners waited patiently the effect of the repeated solioita- tiojuforrtdress ofgfrievancet,tobe adroiuistercd by the Provincial Legislature, the Legislur ■» tivt T \W ON THi: CIVIL GOViiRNMENT OF CANADA* ai.'i tiTor'4)nnrif,in the bahmioii oftlipyt-ar IHJiA.hy r«romnj<>ii(liitiuii «»t'lli.HFjccellnni7 thotttiv- H'fh" enior in < 'i\'\ef, piimvtl » Mil ofthe iiiiwt ^^jtliitiiry N«» lovru- ^••^ "'• Rhi|i« the Knsrlii^h law of dower hihI coiivcyuiMus uitd inakiu^ incuiuhrHiicoH H|H><'iul, oi>t<«> '^'' bliahiiiKalito public officfw therein tWthn enreffiatrMtion ut'allniutatiunMut'rtiiU |>rupi;rty nitd' T"^ of all mort^airns on th<> Name ; t^iHt thou^rli thin bill, carefully ubiitaiiiinK from every uiineee^ ' '''^' tttry innovation, neither(iiHturb«>d the rontine nor tonvhed the custunu of the Freiiob C'aiudiunn in the Huifrneurioa, tlio IIouHe of AaMcmbly, evincinif itn rhoiuetttriatiu diMiN* 5ard for the cluiiUH of your p«titionflni,neffluctnd to proceed upon the Muute bill when Hfut own for conciirreiire, &c. And Mi'. Robert QillcNpie, one of the wituexaea before tbi« Committee, beinff asked in vrbat niiiimer the diiifienHioua between the ditferent branches of the Leji^iHlatnre obfitructed the operation of commerce and the improvement of the CanaduM, anitwerH in the«M wordH, " By preventing the eniictmcut of bwH necesaary for the Heciirity of trade, there iit no mich thinsp as knowioff at preHent when real property in mort|^}fed or not ;" and so on. On the other liand, Mr. Neiitton :itateH, " that no cbauffe which will be for the f^eneral pood of the conntry will be reNisted by the AsHvrably, for the A^Membly are the true representativeii of the people, and uiUHt do what will be for the ffood of the peo- ple; if they do not, they had better po home and mind their own bnttinevM.'* The Coin^ raittee cannot fui I to uiwnrve that the queHtion turuH upon, whether the (food of the Ceople Ih tobepromoteu hyupproximatinp' their inatitutionN toMardsi theKn^liHhHyMtcm, or y not only niaintainin'jf the trench iuHtitutiouH in their preMent integrality, but by ex- teudin<;itoverAllthut portion of the Lower Province which i» inliabited by an Ku<;liNh population. Thin is the real key to the disHeuHionn whiuh liavoexiHtedin that provin<^ "•"• 1787 or 1789 had revived, and certain militia officers having impeached Lord Dalhousic's ^ •'• .'f* ^•♦■'•* consequent judgment upon this occasion, founded, as it was, upon the opinion of the / • ^i- ^• tomey General, not only refused to attend the summer ran8t«rs, but otherwise exhibited a' vpirit of disobedience to orders ; in consequence of which Lord Dalhousie dismissed those persons, the circumstances of whose conduct and sitiuition made such an example neces- sary ; and on the grounds stated His Lordship's conduct received the sanction of the Secre- tary of State. Mr. Cuvillier in his evidence states, that Lord Dorchester, in his Message to the Legis- lature in 1794, in the name of the King, gave the casual and territorial revenues to the Province of Lower Canada, towards the support of its civil government; hence,he says, the control which the Assembly has over those revenues. Itu in consequence of this gift on the part of His Majesty to the Province, for the public uses thereof, that tlie Legislature has a right to appropriate them. He is then asked, " In what form was that gift made ?" and he answers, " By message." A^n he is asked, " Did that message ofLord Dorches- ter say that the King would appropriate thase revenues for the use of the Province, or that he made them over to tne L^slatiure, to be appropriated by them for the use of the Province ?" he answers, " That he does not recolleot the precise words of the mes.sage, but that he does recollect that the casual and territorial revenue was given to the Province in aid of its civil government." Can you supply the Committee with any decided information upon this point ? — It a^ pears in the Journals of the House of Assembly of the 29th of Apiil 1 794, that " a message £t>m his Excellency the Governor, signed by bis Excelle'icy, was presented to Mr. Speaker, which messi^e was read in English and repeated in French, all the members of the House bein^ uncovered, and the same is as foUoweth :->Dorche8ter, Governor. — The Governor has given directions for laying before the House of Assembly an account of the provincial revenue of the Crown, from the commencementof the new constitution to the 10th of January 1794 : 6r6t,the casual and territorial revenue, as established prior to th3 conquest, which Hia Majesty has been most graciously pleased to order to be applied towards de^ fraying the civil eapenses of the province." The Committee will not hesitate to admit that an expression, on the part of the Crown, that orders have been graciously given to apply the territorial revenue towards defraying the civil expenses of the province, cannot, in reason or in justice, be oonsidered to bo agiftto the Lc^lature, by which the Legislature obtains the right of appropriation. I would beg leave to lay before the Committee, in illustration of this distinction between applying the local revenues at the discretion anid under the sanc- tion of His Majesty's Government for the benefit of the colonies, and the surrendering! them to the colonies for their absolute appropriation, by the following letter, which was a£ dressed by Lord Bathurst, as a circubur letter to the o'cnies having local Legislatures, on the 8tli of October 1825, and witich appears Ut me '■:• > SApress most clearly the reasons why an annual vote of the Civil List is less pif;I:irah' "■.-' > more permanent arrangement. '< Downing-street, 8th October 1825. — bir, '/ou s.'eAwart that in all discussions which of late yearshave taken place in Par!iartin> rr '.he subject of the Colonial Estimates it has been objected that the North Americar &v4< nf^ ought to take upon themselves tho.;e per- manent and necessary expenses of their civ.V go'^emment which have hitherto been charged upon the revenue of this country. I have ilways felt unwilliiug to enter upu' • sub- ject until the period should arrive when, A'coai the growing |«rosperity of those colonies,and from the oondition which they had^ in fact, attained with rehpect to their popiUatioi; and nsonrces, 1 could press it with the conviction that the proposition was not only one which ought to be entertained by the Legislature, but one which would be met by a most anxious disposition to comply with the wishes of Government I fclxc Heferriid pressing this point until Parliament has actually removed those restrictions 'ui wlii< the colonists, in some measure dependent upon their assuming upon a jm.i foi>ti'if th<> oLirgea of their own OoTemment, yet I felt it a more pleasing course, (ct:. one wVi*ch I trusted would b« hxmH DOtlMi •fffotual) to rely rkther u[oa the di^ontiM vtt Wi> IMUjr ity'i subjects in tilt U ■ ..) ?! ■U •w ■ >■ \ li' ■y i-i '' \.' i;- u ■ . ; 1 V: '•• ill J ^; Y I- w ■' 'SI !,' 15 SIS MtNUTES OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SEIECT COMMITTEE IHic^t Hon. ^^ colonies to evinee ajust sense ef these advantai^cs aft«r they should have been conf«>r- Ji J. ir. }Jurion'*^^^^1?ou them, thantofauive attempted to induce them to a compliance with t'le propodi- M. F. tion by any promise of consequent concession and advanta<;e. By the measures -which <' ^- > Parliament has recently adoptad the restrictions I have referred to are removed, and t'^e 1 Julj, ites. colonic now enjoy, under the protection of His Majesty, the same freedom of trade with the parent state and witii forei^ countries as if tite v constituted, in fact, intcoral parts of the United Kingdoms. Such a state of things, it is coniidently hoped, cannot fail to pro- duce au increase of prosperity that will either enable the colonists to bear the charge of the Civil Government without necessity for imposing additional taxes, or nil! make the increased taxes, which it maj b« secessary for a time to provide, less burthen- some than those which they are ilo« obliged to sustain. ,1 have had frequent occasion to regret the inoonvenieat consequences which have arisen in some of His Majesty's oolonieai, firom the practice of providing by an annual vote for those charges of the Ciril OoTemment which are in tif- ^er ', \ Jj.»> *'(-?' -<f trade with Jgral psirts of lot fail to pro- he charj^e of )r Hill make less burthen- had frequent I in some of iial vote for rroaQent, and ition coiumun itingencies of fpr as tae oc- for tbe main- •a8» the public nt branches of iment and the former and to is proposition, intended that stablivhed and pediont. The at description, ^their aesuinp- e cordial adop.- I closer the ties ,a(td to indue* !8. And W' en Britain in the circumstance^, the necessary ti:e Legisla* >Temmeut up- fuods may be 'ol of the Le- ioQ «nduBder ' ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANAD4. Mai tig, 15^ . die Julii, 182d. 319 John XtUsan, Ksquire/ 15 July, I8«i. " John Neilson, Esquire, agfain called in ; and Examined. A PETITION, signed by yourself, D. B. Viger and Austin Cuvillier, has been refer- re'* CO tiiis Committee; from which they perceive that since you left Lower Canada the Governmeat of that colony has committed certain other acts of which yoii complain ; the Committee are desirous of hearing any thing you have to say in support or explanation of your complaints ? — I kuo^ nothing of wb^ bais occurred in Lpwejr Canada since my de- parture but by private letters and newspapers, and certain resolutions t'nat have been for- warded to Messrs. Viger, Cuvillier and myself, containing complaints, to be added to ihuse tliat were contained in the Petitidn presented to the House of Commons some tims ago. Those Resolutions are now in tpy possession. Have the goodness to deliver them in ?— ' "• . "* • ' ■ ' [The witnes$ delivered in the following Paptrs i\ PROVINCE OF LOWER CANADA. At a meeting of Landholders and other Proprietors, coinposing the committees appointed at the general meetings of proprietors held for the puniose of petitioning His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament againso the present administration of the Provincial Govern- ment, and for furthering the said Petitions, assembled at the House of Louis Roy Porte- lance, Esq. in the City of Montreal, 17th April 1828 ;-^ Present, Francois A: b. Larocque, Esq. in the Chair ; — Members of the Committee of Montreal : Fraus. Ant. Larocque, the Honourable P. D. Debartzch, Member of th« Legislative Council ; Louis Roy Portelance, James Leslie, Robert Nelson, Jules Qnesnel, F, W. Desrivi^res, Hertel de Rouville, Jo. Waller, 6h8. F. Koy, Frans. Picard, Roch de St. Otars, F. A. Qu^s"c'> P* Peltier, jun., L. M. Viger, D. Mon- del^t, M. F. •' bis, J. D. Bernard, Joseph Allard, Jos. Roy, Michel Viau, R. J. Kimbert, ^^rt'. 1.. 'neau, Jos. Valois, P. Richot, Ales. Berthelot, U. Desrochers, J. B. Lebt^Vtrdais, i .ouis, Barr^, Jq. Bertrand, sen., Frans. Roy, Simon Valois, L. Bouton " I Maj uf , Frans, Desautels, Andr4 Jobin, A. N. Morin; — of the General Comm't.eo «. ' tu 1 District of Three Rivers, J. E. Desmoulin, J. Desfosses; — of the Committee oi '' bounty of Hichelieu, the said Honourable P. D. Debartzch, M. L. C, the said llotli de '.>i. Ours, W. Nelson ;— of the County of York, Ignace Rai- zenne, J. B. Duraouchelle and Alexis Deraers ;* — of the County of Effingham, the said AndrS Panineau, Frans. Coytcux ; — of the County oV Kent, R. Boucher de la Bruere, R^n6 Boileau, jun., Pierre Papincau, Augustin Blais, Jos. Bresse, Jos. Demers, Timothee Kinwert, P. C. B. de la Bruere ; — of the County of Surrey, Joseph Allard ;— of the County of Bedford, the said Hertel de Rouville ;— of the County of Huntingdon, Eustache Masson, Esquires ; — The following Resolutions having been severally read, were unanimously adopted : — Resolved, ^ —THAT it is expedient that the central conunittees of the district of Montreal and T ref Rivers, and the other committees, and the people of the province in I ! H *1 I 't ■'iy\ , 111 1M' III:' I' : I H I i I' ifm' ;■ 3t0 MINUTEd OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE MV J\}kn I\/nlisr» • '-vf; I; h'l in r^niun ^ii^ftrties and security of the people, wl'ich acts, proceedings and decisions have takeii Ls({iiireV'" ^^^ since the departure of the agents for the petitioners for England, and justify and sup- , and the whole country ; and that tiie said order expressly avowed and acted upon the iIle-> gal, unconstitutional, dangerous and oppressive doctrine, that military subordination and respect for military authority require that militia officers and militia-men should not parti- cipate in public meetings, in a country where every proprietor from the age of 18 to 60 is a militia-raau, and all the male inhabitants of that age are militia-incn ; thus attempting to prohibit the inhabitants of the country from all discussion of public affairs and tite miscon- duct of the adrainistra^'on, and from petitioning the King aud Parliament ; virtually sub- jectingthem to martial law. Resolved, 5. — That two meetings of landholders and other proprietors, composing the committees of petitioners in the district of Three Rivers, named at a general meeting of petitioners to further t .cir Petition agaiust his Excellency and his administration, and 'Ahw matters connected therewith, for the information of t .eir agents, passed certain reso- lutions on the subject of the said defamatory and unconstitutional order so published by His Excellency, \vhich saidresolutitfos contained in substance, that the Siud individuals so attempted to be disgrace'! and insulted had lost uotiiing in the esteem of their fellow-citi- zens ; that the attack made by his Excellency on their loyalty and lionouT wa« unmerited ; one of the said committees having also expressed t!icir opinion that those who would accept of the situations of which these respectable individuals had been thus deprived could not be considered as friends of their country ; wljich said resolutions were ordered to be trans.* initted to the Agents of thepetitioners, to Obtain the recall of His Excellency and a change in the adminislmtiou of the government. Resolved, 6. — That these resolutions so taken in defenceof the reputation of individuals attdckcd by a public document, and put into general circulation by the journals of tlie ad- ministration, v;cic also published in the Quebec Gazette by order of the said committees, and signed b.y the siicretaries, Charles Mondelet and Ant. Zop' irin Leblanc, Esquires. Resolved, 7.— Tiiatin the last term of His M^esty's Court of King's Bench for the dis* trict of Quebec, James Stuart, His Majesty's Attorney-general for tl c said province, V ho is alao one of th« executive councillors for the the laid province, and one of ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT UF CANADA. sei of the advisers of tlic present adniinistratioii, and a violent opponent of the Represen- John Xeihun, utive Assciiibl. oft e province, presented to tiie grand jurv five bills of indictmouta^uuKt Kwjuiri'. tlifi said Quebec Gazette, for publications relatinir solely to public mciisures in the Ri.ulpro-' ~^ viiire ; two of v/i ich were for publis; in;^ t'le said rcsolutioas ; four of which bills, inclu-'^ •'"'y ^''*^'** (liiijf the two for publishini^t e said resolutions were found byte praud jury : and the- siij Attorney-;reueral also presented two bills si^ai.ist the said Charles Mondelet, Esquire, one of » hich was for !arle8 Mou* deletfrom the militia, w ich said bills were also found by the grand jury. Resolved, 8. — That a criminal term of the said court bad just then been lield at Three Rivers, where iha said Charles Mondelet resides, and where the acts of which he wasaccu* scd, however iimocent and praiseworthy they nuiy be, were committed ; that th« said At- torney-Tcneral mijfht and oujf.it to I ave proceeded ag^ainst him at Three Rivers, but in- stead of followin'ainst him at Quel)ec, to which pUvce he also compelled live other individuals to attend as witnesses, atthc distanceofOOmilesfromtheir homes, and in another district, and at a time when it was dangerous to travel, when the lives of several of thcso' witnesses were actually put in peril; when Mr. Mondelet was withdrawn from V emost busy time of his profession as an advocate : that the comuelling an individual to answer for a simple misdemeanour out of his district, where he migut have been accused and judged, and compelliHg l I ministration. Resolved, 9. — That the said Attorney-general who laid the said bills before the grand I jury at Quebec, is an executive councillor, and a component part of the adntiuistration Ubich is complained of by the petitions of the people of the province ; that the Chief Justice of the province, Jonathan Sewell, Esquire, presidinjr in the said Court of King's Beach at Quebec, before whom these individuals are to be tried, is also an executive coun- cillor, and a principal adviser of the present administration ; that the sheriflfs, who arbitra-^ riiy cmpatniel the juries in ti:is province, are officers depending entirely on the pleasure of the administration for the enjoyment of their lucrative offices ; and that the sheritf for the district of Quebec is the son of the said Chief Justice so presiding, and zealous in the sup- purtof the administration, the suppression of complaints against it, and preventing them I from being made known. Resolved, 10. — That t'le influence of the foregoing circumstances are sufficiently proved I by the composition of the aforesaid grand jury , of which several members hold offices duf- linnf pleasure, and of which 14, or more, were drawn from t'.e small party which is vio- lleatty opposed to the general opinion of the country, and are impelled by the same passions laod opinions as the executive authority ; and that all the said grand jurors for the district lofQuebec, with the exception of one, were summoncd/rom the City of Quebec alone. Resolved, 11. — That in the Court of Oyer and Terminer, held for the district of M^n- Itrealin the month of November last, and in the term of the Criminal Court for the said l&trict, held in March followin"^, tliree bills of indictment for libel were returned by the Irand jury against Jocelyn Waller, Esquire, and Ludger Duvernay ; and one againse iJames Lane, for innocent, and in tne opinion of tnis committee, praisewortb v publications { Ikeiog^ all articles on the public affairs or this province, and the misconduct of tne provincial Itdmiaistration; entirely free from aoN thingprejudicial to the laws or to public order, but on ItoutFary, replete with uniform loalty and attachment to His Majesty's Govemmeot ; liudthatthe said publications I ave been made thesubjeot of complaint on thepart oftheAt- |t(»1ley-general,only becauset-ieycontained t e free, legal ana coastitutional expression I of the opinion of the great majority of the people of the province on the public meaaures of I the administration ; and that the said publications, as well as the aforesaid resolutions Itdopted in the district of Three Rivers, are not different in substance fivrn the matters of Iromplaint agtunst the present administration contained in the Petition of 87,000 of Bii hiajesty's subjects in tnis province, forwarded, to be laid befo^ His Mi^esty and the Im* I penal Parliament. -trn'^. ■IP ' !' t • « ■ ; 1- 1i' ;■ {• : „ ;' ' ; 'K '■>'.i W T n !■ li 1 ' ■■■ t ■;k- if •{ m i 1 John KeUton, Enquire. 15 July, 1U88. m. i ! linftJTB0 OF EVIDENCE BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Resolved, 18. — That (he sheriff of the district of Montreal, Louis Ou^, Esquire, is an alien born, and a member of the Lc^fislati ve Council of this proAnnce, and holds a lucrative ^situation durinn^the pleasure of the executive,of which he adopts tiie opinion and passior.s. Resolved, 13. — That Juries arbitrarily chosen by officers dependent on the afiiniiiistia- tion,do not inspire sufficient confidence in an equal dispensation of justice and law ; that the two grand juries in particular, who returned the said bills at Montreal, aud which were chosen by the said Louis Gug^y, were, for the most part, composed of violent parti- sans of the provincial administration, and notoriously hostile to the opinions of the i;re.it majority of the inhabitants of the country, M'hether considered as landholdc?rs and pro- prietors, or in respect to numbers ; that tne said grand jurors were conspicuous for violent prejudices, and were chiefly drawn from the small fraction of the inhabitants who had signed virulent addresses against the representative branch of the Government. Resolved, 14. — That the said Attorney-general obtained a rule to try some of the said indictments bya special jury, at Montreal, in the ensuing September Term, although it may be held that the rules by which special juries are granted in certain cases iu England, do not apply here ; and that the juries termed special here, being selected under a law to try certain civil causes, from a 6mall class of individuals, the selection of the mere special juries, as well as the OTand and petty juries, depends entirely on the said sheriffs, so that, far from affording additional protection to the subject, they are much less favourable to impartial justice than those called common juries ; and it is in the power of the Attorney- general to bring on the trial before jurymen selected from a small portion of the district, who may be biassed in their jud'-n'ent by preconceived antipathies and notoriously violent prejudices, however honest arl , . ipectable they may otherwise be ; aud that there is rea- son to fear that a special jury may be so biassed iu their decision on the said indict- ments. Uesolved, 15. — That the sc' ' Jam ■ Ttuart, Esquire, in speeches delivered before His Majesty's courts has falsely accused civers loyal subjects of His Majesty in relation to the publications of which he complained, by asserting that they had a seditious tendency, and were seditious libels a^inst His Majesty's Government ; and that the said James Stuart has exercised his official duties in these causes with extraordinary rigour and violence, subjecting the accused to hardships and inconveniences unnecessaiy for the due adminis- tration of justjcein cases of alleged offences again^it the Government, namely, the admi- nistration, of which the said James Stuart is a member. - Resolved, 16. — That the choioe of the grand juries on the three occasions before men- tioned, at a time when offences of a political nature were to be laid before them, and the i;enduct of the Attorney-general in relation to the said prosecutions, have inspired a strong'^ I suspicion concerning the principles and opinions of the said Attorney-general, as well as of those public officers therein concerned, and weakened the public conndence in the admi- nistratiou of criminal justice in this province. Resolved, 17. — That Charles Richard Ogden, Esquire, Solicitor-general for this pro- vince, is also one of the principal advisers of the present administration, and has on vanous o«casions manifested violent prejudices against the opinions of the inhabitants of this pro- 1 vince, particularly on the 15th December last, when the freeholders and other electors of the County of Montreal were about to meet legally to discuss the measures of the adminis- tiration, the said Charles Richard Ogden did, with an intent to prevent the said meeting] ■• and suppress the expression of its opinions on the said public measures, cause to be arrest- ed the said JOcelyn Waller and Luager Duvernay for the said alleged libels, with a view to alarm and intimidate His Majesty's loyal subjects. Resolved, 18.-~Thatif any other proof were M^anting to persuade the inhabitants of I this province that the processes of the criminal courts therein are in the hands and under the mfluence of the provincial administration, and that the prosecutions before mentioned [ Bave been directed to hinder or prevent the expression of tne opinions of His Majesty's i Bobjeots on the measures of the present administration, the* couldnot fail to findample proof offBUch a state of things in the avidity with which the Attorney-general lays before the grand joiiesbills against the publication of the constitutional proceedings of the inhabitants of thecomitr^and other writings equally innocent, while he suffers the journals aud ucws- 1 papers published under'the authority aud control of the administration to indulge in the viMtVMMbt aad insnltiflg abuse of the coiUatry and its iubabitauts, tending waiulestly to iaspirs ISPI ;>,^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA SSS inspire them with prejiulices ai^inst His Majcst's Government, and parti cnlwly as they j^^im Xeilaim, SCO those writinj^fs altoj^ctheroverlooked by the Attorney-general in his proceedings before Ksqmre. the courts oFjiistice. r— — * -i Ke.solvod. 19. — That since the commencempnt of the administration of His ExoellenryiS July, IV28. the E>u*l of Dallionsie, and particiiliirlv for soiii<» y«'ar.s past, tlie newspapers under the con- trol and piitroiia,'L' of his administration, and <•.-; ecialiy " The (Jtieboc Gazette," puiilisliod b) authority, " The Quebec Mercury," ])rinted l)y tlis Majesty's printers, and " TIio Montreal dra/ette," published by authority, by Robert Armour, also printer to His Ma- jesty, have been made the vehicles of the most odious calumnies and low abuse of the re- presentatives of the province, its inhabitants, their laws, religion and manners, attaching the rijjhts and privileges granted to them by the most solemn acts and the laws of the Im- Iterial Parliament, and teudingtot'ie subversion of the established constitution; thatsimi- ar writings have also been issued from other presses patronized by the administration, the whole under the eye of the said Attorney-general, who has suffered them to proceed un- noticed, while he prosecutes officially, with great warmth, expressions on the part of the country unfitvourable to the administration of the government, Resolved, 20. — That this conduct on the part of the Attorney-general is equivalent to gfiill protection by the administration and the courts of justice to whatsoever opinions, ca- lumnios and insults the partisans of the present administration may publish in its organs, and that the conviction is becoming universal on the part of the inhabitants of the province that the false and abusive writings of whichthese papers are the vehicles, counselling and exciting to the subvei-sion of the social order, thefnstitutions and constitutional privileges of the people, are nothing but the expression of the opinion and ^vishes of the present ad- ministration, its chiof, and members ; and the people, the public bodies, and tne indivi- duals so insulted and vilified can hope fo. no redress within this province from t'le conrts of justice, the said Attorney-general and other officers equally dependent on the administra- tion, being the sole channels through whicli an attempt could be made to obtain it. Resolved, 21. — That the said Jonathan Sewell, Esquire, Chief Justice of this province, has declared that any j ustice of the peace might law'fully arrest the pri nter or author of any writing which, in the opinion of tlie said justice, was a libel, and oblige such printer or au- thor to give bail for ap^^earance and good behaviour ; and that the said Chief Justice and t 'e Court of King's BeL .h at Montreal have decided that security for good behaviour may be required in cases of libel on indictment before conviction. Resolved, 22. — That these doctrines excite the greater alarm, as in the commissions of the peace lately issued by His Excellency, a system of exclusion has been adopted, so as to leave out ot^ the commission nearly all those justices of the peace who were not noto- riously devoted to the views of the present administration ; and that the commission is now nearly altogether composed of its decided partisans. Resolved, 23. — That the foregoing proceedings, and the system now adopted, are des- tructive of the liberty of the press in this province, or subject it to incessant prosecution, uuless it be agreeable to the provincial administration and it« partisans. Resolved, 'ii. — Tliat His Excellency the Earl of Dalhousie, recently, and after he had official communication of the Petitions of the subject in this province to His Majesty, and bot^i Houses of Parliament, in which they particularly comnlain of the intermixfiire of the legislative and judiciary authority in the persou of several public officers, has issued a mandamus, appointing Jean Thomas Taschereau, Esquire, a member of the Legislative Council of this province, although the said Jean Thomas Taschereau is also one of the Fuisne Judges of the Court of King's Bench fortlie District of Quebec, and without await* ing the decision of His Mttjesty on the said complaint. Resolved, 25. — That His Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, by the abuses and mal- administration more particularljr complained of in the said Petitions, and by the general tenor of his administration, since the departure of the agents of the petitioners, baa entirely forfeited all confidence on the part of the people ; and is utterly incapable, in ti'pelliu-There is no doubt tnatl t e« and M. Vrtllieres, late speaker of the Assembly, shortly after tlie former had pro|)osedMr. Papi. neau as speaker, and tlie latter had moved tlie address, prayiiijf the (lovernor to confirm the choice of the House. The grounds al'enfed for the principal dismissals that have oc- curred since my departure, are to be found in the (;feneral order that has been entered upon the minutesalreai!y ; it it for havin;; " been active instruments of a party hostile to His Majesty's (irovernmeiit ;" we know of none, nor does an v body know of any acton the pirt of those individuals, other than attendinj; and actlnj; at those meetuiys that agreed to the petitions that were presented to His M.ijesty and to tlie House of Com- mons. Tliose dismi^'Sals for attendinfj the election meetinn^s come within your own kno"^ledife ? — I Wiis in Quebec at the time the order for tlieir dismissal ••■as nuldis led by autijority ; their colonel, with a Mr. ISimpson, w.is a candidate at the election, and t ley "ere sup- ported on the part of the executive in Lower Canada; th<* gentlemen dismissed attended meeting's that were in opposition to these candidates, and supported other candidates ; sometime after the election, I cannot say what number of them, but several oft em were dismissed by ajjeneral order. . The resolutions you hive ifiven in, compliin of political prosecutions that have lately tjiken place in Lower Canada; do \on know "hat number of the newspapers of Lower Canada have been actn.iUv prosecuted ? — Tiiore are three presses prosecuted, publishiiijf live newspapers, the only on^ s, in fact, in the province who speak with any freedom of tiie administration of the :ose take place in Quebec ?— I cannot say ; probably in September. _ ; " ' Tlie Conmiittee observe that in these resolutions it is complained that these political trials at Quebec will tjike place before a special and not before a pettyjury, and the reso- lutions state that this circimistance will act against the defendant ; in what way is that the case in Lo -er Canada? — I believe that it is not determined^ how the trials at Quebec are to come jn ; but at Montreal it has been determined that the trials are to be by a special jury : the lists for .hi special jiu'ies are made out by the 8' eriffs, under an okl ordinance piissed before the existence of the present constitution, by th« Governor aud the Leijislati ve ( ouncil, which relate to uiries in civil causes. Have you lately received any account of t e political differences in the province of Upper Canada?— Tiiere is a misuuderstandinjy between the Lieutetiant-^'ovcrnbr and the Assembly ; the' Assembly was proro;irued rat er unexpectedly after the imprisonment of some Gentlemen culled upon to {five evidence by order of the House of Assembly. You know nothinjf upon that point, except »* hat you have seen in the newspapers f — No; except what I have seen in extracts from the journals of the House of Assembly published in the newsuapers of Upper Canada. :i The Committee observe that in the resolutions put in, it is complained that t^'e com- ission of the peace has been new modelled throusrhout the colony of Lower Canada ? — colony mission Yes, it has With a view to political purposes ; has that been the case ?— It is generally believed to be the case ; a g^reat many penons have been left out of the comxuisuoQ, and it has been 111 I V . «' .!;• ■i' I i:^ : I- Mil, I 8ff6 MINUTES OF EVIUENt'E BEFOIVE SELECT COMMITTEE kI'' '' K. 1 yh I li ■ 15 Jul/, 1828. B/- f I been publioljaron'edby persons iu the employ of the executive, that omissions have been E ****' o***^^ upon political grouudfl. ^.. '^*' Have there uut bei?u many mombors of tlio House of Assembly ex'iluded from the com- mission ? — Ye», about six or ol^lit. It lias ijoeii s..ulciltluitaniinlivi(lu,d li.is boon deprived of his romraissi(»n, niid rerlncpd to the raiik> in the nillitiu ; in wliat inaiiuor does tiie law enforce the pen'oriuaiice ut° his duty ;i8 u private? — Ti.o law says thut every able bodied man from 18 to (K) i« bound to serve iu the militia ; aud if lie is not au otFicer, or exempt by law, he mu8t Nerve an a private. How is that enforced ? — By imposin;^ fines for non-attendanee ; tliere is a rontcst now in the courts of justiee respecting the law ; they are proseuutiuj,' the persons vho exacted the fines under the old ordinances for damurres. Are the lines heavy? — The fines by tlw laws that existed were not heavy ; but those by the ordinances of the Legislative Council of 1787, which the Governor pretends to be in force, arc rather heavy ; and what is worse, tliey m'e exacted by the sentence of a court- martial, instead of beiuff exacted iu a civil court. Do you know any thin;r of the corremoudence that took place between Monsieur Parant and Narcisse Duchesuay, Esq., Lieutenant Colonel ? — I have seeu it iu the newspapers. Do you know the parties ? — 1 do. [A newspaper is handed to the witness.] Is that the newf paper you allude to ? — In this paper is a transhition, the original of whirh I have read in t'le French, of the correspondence between M. Duchesnay and Mr. Parnnt, whawas an ensign in the militia of Beauport; these letters are correct trauslatious of the originals I have seen in French. [ The same were delivered in^ and are as follows :] "To Narcisse Duchesnay, Esquire, Lieutenant-Colonel, &c. &o. / . " Beauport, 28th January 1828. « Colonel ! " Under the administration of a man never to be forgotten, and worthy of the love of all good and loyal subjects, I was honoured by being considered worthy of au ensign's commission. " But at this period, when being a commissioned militia-man prevents one from being a citizen, when persons a thousand times more respectable than I am have been displaced, and ot< ers, strangers and unknown, have been substituted in their place, I would consi- der myself dishonoured if I retain a commission which has nothing but what is degrading in my eyes. "^ However honoured I might be vhen I received that commission, I did not accept it until I knew that the duty it required was conformable to law ; that conformity existing no longer, my commission ceases to exist. It is your's ; dispose of it. ■r- .* (Signed) *' M. PARANT." i •• Adjutant-General's Office, Quebec, 22d February 1828. ** Lieutenant-Colonel N. J. Duchesnay, commandant of the 5th battalion of the County Quebec, having transmitted to me your letter, dated the Is of this month, I have sub- mitted it to His Excellency the Commander-in-chief, who '.as ordered that your commis- •ion teii, or |>prliii|)HtH'flvi>lMllH l>roii;;||t forwnnl )ii(aiiiNt tiiomt prcHHeit I liavi> mi'iitioiit'ii ; aiiil thoyure bound un(li>r huuvy puimltios to iippnar unJ bo of ;{:ooil buhavioiir ; I tSiiiUjo tlii* ^aiuoiiiit of Hevor.il tlioiiuiUiH poiiiiiN, 4,0()Ul. or ;5/l()(tl. ; tln're aro oth-r rosoliilioiw. I ' beliuvc I could furtii.^h copied ofull tliu urticlt'H midor indictment, if it wus (Ic^tin^d. ILiH tlie laii;|ua<;«> of tlie jfovfriiniont papors been very tcmprratc durin;; the wholcof t!iU tiaie? — No, bynuineanN. It lias liven very violent HometiuiPH ; it is (|nite natur.ti wiipii parties run lii^h ut electioueerinfT tinieH, uud Hoon after, that the papprs should run lii;;li hIno. The first iudictmentH fur olfeiiccs connected with total politics were Nhortly before tho mectiu;; of the AsK«nibly, after the dissolution of \Hn. 'Ihe liills were {lu-own out at the regular term, and n court of Oyer and Teriuiucr wait held, ut Mliiuli new biU« wit^y presented for the aame oflftiuces, and found. >,. i ;'"'>■ X ;t ' ' I ^ I I ^,...ls • 'r » ' ' '. ' A^i* '■ " ? ^ m^i " 'I ' t.' APPENDIX OT? triE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 8ft \-W., . ". ■> 1 APPENDIX APPENDIX. APPENDIX, No. 1. To the Ilonourahip the KnijjfhtK, Citizens mid BnrjycsspR, rppr'»«ir>Mtinj the ('ommom of j^ the Uuttud Kingdom of (ireat Britain and Ireland, in r.irliainvnt aMieinblcd. I>.'iiii?>i) lifih* liih.ibiiHii'.-, «)f The Petition of the SuhHcriberN, His Mnjnsty's dutiful nnd loyal Subjects, of Britishihi* I'dwn'itm birth or descent, Inlabitants of the Townships of Dunham, iStanbiidge, !St. Armand, Sut-"' "»"•>'«"•■ S"^-. ton, Potton, Stanstead, Barnston, Barford, Hereford, Fam am, Bronie, Bolton, Hat- ','^ ^"*»'' *^ ""•- ley, Comptoii, Clifton, (Iranby, Shefford, Stnkely, Orford, Ascott, Eaton, Newport,J_ Burv, Hampden, Milton, Iloxton, Duikun, Melborne, Windsor, Shipton, Stoke, l)ud- well, Simpson, Kinjfsey, (iSnuitham, Wickham, Wendover, Brompton, and other Tovtu- ibips and Places situate in the Province of Lower Canada ; Humbly Shewcth. • Tbat your Petitioners hare learnt with the fn'^'i^^'^'^t heartfelt satisfaction, and the most profound fi^atitude, t:.at a Bill was introduced into the Honourable tlie House of Commons, at the last session of the Parliament of the United Kinj^dom, for uniting the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada under one Leg^islature ; a measure to wbitli the inhabitants of the Townships of Lower Canada look forward as t e only effectual means ofterminatiujif the difficulties and troubles under which they have laboured in times past, tnd of preventing the evils nith which a continuation of the present state of tbiuj^s would threaten them for the time to come. That thesituation of the inhabitants of the Townships is different from that of anjr other portion of the British empire, and is likely to prove most unfortunate and disastrous for themselves and their posterity, unless the le^'islativo aid of the land of their ancestors be extended to relieve them ; as will be briefly shown in (ho following statement ; — The province of Lower Canada, according; to its present condition, maybe separated into t"0 parts; viz.: first, the Sei^iiorics, or French) Lower Canada, which comprehends a narrow tract of land on each side of the river St. Lawrence, varyin from ten to forty miles ; and secondly, t>e Townships or Englis!) Lower Canada, which comjtrehends the remainder of the Province, and is more extensive, and capable of containing afar greater population thin the Seigniories, or French Lower Canada. Ti e Seignoriul part of Lower Canada, whose population may be considered as about half filled up, is inhabited c iefljr by Canadians, whose origin and language are French ; but contains, besides these, a population of about 40,000 inhabitants of British origin. The Townships, or English Lower Canada, are peopled wholly by inhabitants of British birth aud descent, and Ameri« can loyalists, amounting at present to about 40,000 souls, who have no other language than that of their British ancestors, who inhabit lands granted under the British tenure of free and common soccage, w ho have a Protestant clergy, for w.ose maintenance a por- tion of those lands are set apart, and who, notwithstanding, are subjected to French laws, (the custom of Paris,) of which they know nothing, compiled in a language with which tbey ire unacquainted. In addition to the evil of subiection to foreign laws in a foreign langnage, the Town- ihips, or English Lower Canada, labour under the further difficulty of iiaTiog no courts witliia h i 1 M: i :\ '. 390 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEB mi all. u i: No. I. w'ifhin their own limits, for the administration even of those foreiarn laws, but are com- rvnti.ii orih<-p»''l^''Ji for the most triflinjf Ipjal rodrpss, to resort to courts established at the cities of Ir.hbriHnis ot Quebec;, Montreal, or Tliree llivors, in ycignorial Ciiiiadu, at a distance frequently froia iiii''r(nviisliii.'< iQo^f, 150 miles, throuyfha coinitry where the travpllinj», by reason of the inadequacy of III I , ^''.''V' , *''*^'**^''* '■^;?'''"''^"^' ^■<*''"'"'^"'^"''^^ ^^ frequently difficult and danncerous; and to com- ''pietethemeasuro of their ^rrievatices, the To^vn^h■ps are rff/ac/o without anv repre.sen- ^ (tatioii whatever in the Provincial House of Assembly in Lower Canada. ^Their com- plaints to the Provincial Asseuilily have been always treated with contempt or indilf'ereuce ; nor can your Petitioners aci'ount for their bcinjjphiced, as it were, almost out of the pale of civil {fovemment, by a nejflect so ditlerent from the course pursued in tlie Legislature of other British provinces, except on the supposition that the Frenci Canadian House of Assembly hiis not been desirous that eniin;rants from Britain or of British ori<{in should have inducements to seek an asylum or become settlers in Lo ^er Canada. If such indeed were the oliject, it has not failed of partial success ; as of t.ie many thousand emiy^rants who, withiu the last fev years, have arrived from Great Britain, scarcely 1,000 have settled in the Townships of Lower Canada ; but great numbers of them Lave gone into the United States, considering, possibly, that they sliould there find themselves in a hss forei;in country thin in this British colony under its present civcumstances, and under the foreign aspect of the representative branch of its Legislature. Your Petitioners will not enlarge upon the general statement they have given of their condition, by entering into the detail of the numerous hardships aud dimciilties with Mhich they have had to contend, although sensible t at ihj recital would call forth com- miseratiou. They will content themselves with stating, that as settlements under these Ellgli^h tenures have been commenced, as immense tracts still remain to be settled, and as the population of Lower Canada is trifling compared tjtheauKiunt which it is capable of attaining, there can be no sound reason for rearing up any portion of the provinc* so as, at its maturity, to constitute a nation of foreigners, or for continuing a system calcu- latod to deter Eri ons and their descendants from settling upon the waste lands of the Crown. Ill the miinagement of colonies, as in the management of youth, prudence would Beera to dictate \.h;A, the lasting interests of the future maturity, not the momentary inclinations of the present condition, sliou d be considered of the deepest import. Already within a recent period, uear 100,000 emigrants of British birth have m.ide Lower Canada c ily a place of transit ; who, if t e foreign aspect of the Legislature hjd not urged them to take an abode elsewhere, might have a'igraented th;. strength and means of the Englisli population in the province. But notwithstanding the past cheiksto colonial increase, unless similar causes are allowed to operate ereafter, future emigrants aud iheir decendauts, joined to the English already established here, may ultimately form a ^'reat majority of tlie in abitauts, and render the country in fact, as it is in name, a British coUiny. And in the attainment of this happy result, no injury could be done to the just rig: ti of others; nor "ould even any prejudices be snTected, except those delu- sions circulated and fostered by demagogues. " that the Canadians of French extniction are to rem^iu a distinct people, aud that they ar6 entitled to be considered a nation ;" prejudices from whic ■ it must follow as a necessjiry consequence, that the province of Lower Canada (of which not one-sixth part is settled) should be deemed their national territory, w here none but those willing to become French ought to be allowed to estab- lish hemselves ; prejudices which, however absurd they may appear, will obtain strenjjth andinriuence if not speedily and completely discouraged*, and will be found not only in- compatible with colonial duty aud allegiance, but also dangerous to the future safety of the adjoining colonies, and subversive of the rights of all the inhabitants of the Town- ships, as well as of all the Englisli settled in seignorial Canada, tlirough v.hase bands the entire trade with t e mother country is conducted. Your Petitioners, the inhabitants of English Lower Canada, had always flattered them- selves that no laws would be imposed or continued on that portion of the countrv, having a tendency to compel them to resemble a foreign nation, and to deprive them of the char- acterestics of their Brit'sh origin ; aud their confideace on this occasioo was increased by their recollection of the .womises of his late Majesty, to give English laws to his subjects settling in Canada, and by the exception (an exception never yet enforced in practice) contained iathe Quebec Act of 1774, declaring that the provisioDS of that Act, estab- lishing J ^ I but are com- and to corn- ices, and under t)N THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. .7*^1 No 1. Pfi-ini. of 'h» ligliio)? French laws, " should not extend to lands to be hereafter granted in fr^e and coinmoQ soccajfc," a tenure »bic!i exists exclusivt'ly in the TuH'ii»liips. Your Petitioners felt, and they trust it is a leeliu^ which cannot fail to meet with syra- '"j' '.'r '"I," , ", pathy in the hearts of their countrymen, and the countrvmeu of th<.>ir ancestoi-s in liritaiu, ,,f.'|j ,„',,^,",^ j^',!' t at tiie knowled^'e of their native Eno^lish lanf,nia'<'e ouj^lit to be sullicient loenahlt» them,,, |,,,w. r t'»:.«. tolearn their ri^rlitsand to perform their duties as fiithfnl li h neut of a people who should perpetuate in after ages the honoured resemblance of the parent strite ; and they felt that it could neither be consistent with the dignity nor the interests of Great Britain, to rear up a colony to be hereafter in language and in laws a represen- tative of France, while France was exempted from all tlie expense ol its protection. They considered the Townships of Lower Canada, now inhabited solely by settlers of British birth and origin, speaking only the English language, and having a Piotestant clergy upon whom one-seventh of the land is bestowed, as possessing a sacred claim upon the British Government for protection, against the painful and humiliating prospect, tliat their posterity mi»ht be doomed to acquire the languiige and assnme the manners and character of a foreign people. And tb>y also considered that the right of the Townships to a representation in the Provincial Assembly would not have been withheld from tliein la any other British colony, nor perhaps even here, lad not their language and descent been British. Your Petitioners would gladly limit their solicitations to one point — that of bejng I idlowed a representation in tho Provincial Parliament, proportioned to the conseque'ice aud growing importance of the extensive districts they inhabit — if a sober view of their future safety Mould permit them to confine themselves to that object ; but it is possible that even tliis sacred and inestimable privilege might, when accorded, be deprived of much of its advantages and iuetficiency towards procuring the settlement of the wild lauds bjr emigrants from Britain, in consequence of the iutlueiice of the majority of French Ca- Dadians, « hich would still be found in the House of Assembly of Lower Canada, w o, ia the midst of professions of attachment to the mother couutry, seek to preserve them- selves a separateaud distinct people. To secure and preserve to the colony, and to the mother country, the full benefit which would be likely to ar all the ii.habit- ants of both, who are not influenced by national prejudices, >• hi(.-h ought to be extinguish- ed, or by local or private interests, w ich are unwort. y to be weighed against the general benefits to bo obtained from the union. Your Petitioners lumbly represent, that no arguments can be urged against the unioa by the French Canadians, whicn will not, when analyzed, be resolvable into this real meaning, tJiat they desire to remain a separate people, thereby ultimately to become a French nation, or as they have denominated themselves, the " Natiun Canadienne" The Canadians, without owing any of their increase to emigration, have more than twice doubled their numbers since the conquest; and although they miglit, without any injustice or deprivation of actual rights, have been by this time assimilated to their British fellow subjects, they are nevertheless at this day, with but a few individual exceptions, as much foreigners in character as when that event took place; and must ever continue so, were the present state of things to be permanent. The present crisis therefore offers this alterna-' tive to Great Britain — either by uniting the provinces, to hold out inducements to the French to become Englis!i, or by continuing the separation, to hold out inducements to the English in Lo^er Canada to become French. Ana the question is not, whether a countrtr already peopled is to renounce its national feelings aud c aractcrestics, as the French Canadians may endeavour to represent ; but whet er a country, for the most part waste, and to be hereafter chiefly peopled by a British race, is to assume the character, language ^dn^iljuns of « foreign nation. Should the latter course be preferred, Great Britaia will .1 li -, I )t- I m. 7 ;f i i: k.' ¥>■ ,\ 339 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE 'J I'-f t ..-^l fc '^^y - •'. I>iiiiiiHin,&<'. difference of origin, and consolidate (he populHtiou of both provinces : » ' lAJWtr tttna-ouH mass, animated by the same vit'ws tor the public interest, and tl ri'tiimii <'f ihe^'^'"*® ^fi!"''"J?'"P ft people of forein[ners, to become at no distant period from tbeir ra» I iiljirtiim ijfpidl.v increasing population, a 8cour3' have but ou<> outlet to the sea, and one chauiiel of communication with the mother countkT. Tiie only key oftlmt commuiiic.ition, the only sea-port, is iuthe possession of Lower Canada, and with it t e only means by which, for a length of time in a new coun- try, a revenue can be raised for the support of (ioverumeut. To place, or to leave, t e only key of communication, the only source of revenue, exclusively lu the hands of a pooijle like the Freu<;h Canadians, ai)ti-<-<>mmercial in principle, ami adverse to assimilation witli their British fellow subjects, must be extreme impolicy ; nor can the checks ujionthe im- position and repeal of import duties, provided by the Act of the last session of the Inijic- rial Parliament, be more than a tem[>orary remedy, inasniu<;h as Uj^per Canada is theicDy only entitled to a species of i;fto, and has no initiative or deliberative voice in ' enact- ments ; nor indeed can human wisdom be adeqtiate to devise such a system ot r; aue up- on imports, while the provinces shall remain separate, as will not giveunfair anu unequal advantages to the one or the other, and of necessity produce irritation and enmity. Your Petitioners further humbly state, that ih,; French Canadians have been long ad- mitted to the enjoyment of the freedom and the rig ts of British subjects, rights far more extensive that the utmost the. could have hoped for had they continued colonists of France: but rights and duties arc reciprocal; whenever the former exist, the latter are obligatory ; and while the freedom and protection of Britain are bestowed upon Canadians, it can neither be unfair nor ungenerous to require in return the existence of such au amended Constitution as shall encourage a portion of our brethren from Britain to cstablislj t emselves and their posterity upon the Crown lands in Lower Canada From a union of the provinces, no individual could reasonably complain of injury, no right would be taken awa , no just pretensions would be set aside, and even no prejudice would be molested, save on y s'ich as might be found in those who c crisli visionary views of the future exis- tence of a Gallo-Canadian nation, w ich the union would at once and for ever dispel. To discover with certainty what fire the real feelings which excite opposition to the union, (' owever diversified the pretexts assigned may be), it would on'y be requisite to consider, whether, if the population were all of the same origin in provinces situated as the (Panadas are with respect to each other, any objections tot e measure would be made ? The answer is obvious; t ere would be none. And if the real motives of opposition on the part of our French Canadian fellow subjects, w hether openly avowed or speciously disgui^ed, arise from the intention of continuing or constituting a sejiarate peoi'le, which would perpetuHte anmng us the disastrous national distinctions ot English and French, they form the strongest possible reasons in favour of the union. Your Pe- titioners had humblv hoped that the guirdiaa care of the p-u-ent st^ite would, under Provideuce, secure her colonies in this part ofthe Globe from the ultimate daui^er of those national animosities and distinctions which have existed for so many ages, and proved such fertile sources of evil to Britons in Europe. Aud entertaining, as they do, the most perfect confidence that the salutary measure ofthe union ofthe Canadas would in the most equitable and beneficial manner secure their posterity from the evils they have mentioned, they I umbly conceive that the honour, as well as the humanity of the mother country, require it to be effected while it is yet easily practicable, Le'bre the popu- lation shall be formidable in numbers, and before continually recurring evaepci.'.tions shall have rendered animosity bitter and hereditary. Yoii^ Petitioners therefore most humbly pray that an Act be passed to authorize the Provincial Executive Government to divide the townships of Lower Canada into coun- ties, entitled to elect members, so as equitably to provide for the interests of their future population according to the extent of their territory,and also to unitethe provinces of Upper and Lower Canada under one Legislature, in such manner as may allow of representation proportioned in some measure to territorial extent, which thereby will provide for the growings ^TP 'TEE I from tbeir n. tas, if the uni'oa y, derived from » one homoivene- iiamc seittiuieiits nature has esta- *one L«'giblatiirp, with the molhtr le possession of i in a new coun- o leave, t e only uds of a peojjie issimilatiou with ;k8 ujiou the iiQ> iun of the Ini|>e- o autliorize the liiiada into coun- ts of their future ovinces of Upper of representation provide for the growing > tfS THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. S^ No. 1. Tiii'i .11 of ('•• Inh. t)it iiit> if the I (iwii'.f i . Oil li.iii. \ •. in Lower C-- iiikI.i. pro'tnnnf state of the country, and also of necessity be ultimately proportioned to wealth aud pOftulation. Aud your Petitioners, as iu duty bound, will ever pray, &c. The fore;roinjr Petition was transiaitte.l fro™ the Town'^liips in 1!^?3, and si;»npd al- most uaaniiuoiiisiy by ail the he.tils of families in the Towashijis : tlii* MiiiabiT of si^jaa- ttires exceeded 10,000. Tliis Petitiou, together with others, evea fnaa the Sii^fuories of Lower C.tua la, as well ivs from Ujiper Cauad.i, iu favour ofthei/.uioa of the t.»'o pro- vinces, can now be produced, if required. APPENDIX No. 2. Petition of t' e Counties in the District of Quebec ; and of the County of Warwick, District of Montreal. To t'.e King's most Excellent Majesty : .' . , May it please your Majesty, ,,,,,., We, your Majesty's faithful and loyal subjects, inhabitants of your province of Lower No l.tywvr (";«ii .t* Canada, rao.st humbly supplicate your Majesty to receive graciouslv this our humble pe- tition, whicli we now lay at the foot of your Imperial throne, with hearts full of •'vatitude , Jj'.'I^'")"* , and uaviolabie attachraeut to your au !' iii ist 'H U i i h m S34 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE i No. 2. ested in maintaining; and increasing' the Ralaries, emolnments and foes of public oflficorg IViioo'ti- "l"is-P^'^ '^y thepcojjle, and ulsa in supportinf,' divers abuses favourable to persons lioldin;* ir'tiHol' viu bic"^^'*''"'' The Lejfislativc (V)undl, b tjicsp moans, is in effect the executive power, under &c. i m-' adirtiprent name, and thp Pjxtvincial Lojrishiture is, in truth, reduced to two brantl.cs, a - Govornor and an Assembly ; leaving'- the proviucp without the benefit of the intermediate branch, as inten curing; aremely. V\ e f^cknowledge that t' e Legislative Council ought to be independent ; and if it were, we should not be entitled to complain to your Majesty of the repeated refusals of that branch to proceed upon various bills seut up bv the Assembly, however useful and in- dispensable the v might be; considering these refusals as the natural result of the compo- sition of that body,and of the state of dependence in which the majority of its members are placed, we are compelled to consider its acts as the acts of the Executive Government; and we most humbly represent to your Majesty, that h;> Legislative Council of this pro- vince, the majority of which is composed of Executive Councillors, judges, and other persons dependent on tlie Executive, nave, year after year, rejected several bills, refused and neglected to proceed on several other bills sent up by the Assembly, for 1 he remedy of abuses, for encouraging education, promoting the general convenience of the subject, the improvement of the country, for increasing the security of persons and property, and furtheringthe common welfare and prosperity of the province: particularly — Various annual bills granting the necessary sums for all the expenses of the Civil Government of the province, but regnlating and settling limits to the expenditure. ' For affording a legal recourse to the subject having claims against the Provincial Gor- ' ernraeut. For regulating certain fees and offices. For enabling the inhabitants of the towns to have a voice in the management of their local concerns, and a check on the expenditure of monies levied upou them by assess- ment. Forfiicilitatingtheadtninistration of justice throughout the province, for qualifyins; and regulating the formation of juries, and introducing jury trials ia the country parts,and diminishing the expenses occasioned by the distance of suitors from the present seats of justice. For providinga new and sufficient gaol for the district of Montreal. For qualifying persons toserve in the office of justice of the peace. For continuing the Acts regulating the militia of the province. For increasing and apportioning the representation in the House of Assembly eqnally, ^ ' among the qiialitied electors throughout the province, particularly in the new *' settlements and townships. For the security of the public monies in the hands of His Majesty's receiver-general in this province. For the independence of the judges, by securing to them their present salaries, upon their being commissioned dnring good behaviour, and for providing a tribunal for the trial of impeachments by the Ass< mbly, so as to ensure a just responsibility in I igh public officers within the province. For appointing and providing for an authorized agent for the province, to reside ia England, and attend to its interests there. It is with the most profound grief that we find ourselves compelled to represent to your Majesty, that during several yearspast the incomes derived from real estate in this pro- vince, the profits of trade and industry, and the wages of labour therein, have greatly di> xninished, and still continue to diminish ; that under these circumstances it would not b« equitable to impose taxes ornew duties on its inhabitants for the public uses ; and that there exists no other resource which can reasonably be depended upon, to aid in the difiu- •ion of knowledge and facilitate the exertions of individual industry, than the proceeds of t>:e existing revenues levied within the province. Nevertheless, more than one half of tne gross amount of all its public revenues lias been •pplied, for several years past, in payment of salaries, emoluments and expenses of the offi- cers of the Civil Government, exclusive of the usual and indispensable special appropria- tioas { and our anxiet; it the greater, as these Mklaries and emoluments and expenses nave beta t ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. S85 receiver-general Dce, to reside in been greatly increased without the consent of the Lejiislatnre, and have in some instiiDces b<;cnpaid to persons who do not rcsii'.e in tli<> nrovincp, or have reuden'd no sor- 1.„„. vich therefore; and in othor ciiscs the said salaries wnd enioliinuMits and e.\»t(«ns('« are ex- IVn cessive, when compared witli tlie incomes derived from real estate in tliis provincf, and rici the usual recompciwe obtained therein by the individuals of tuleut, charactor and industry *•<<'• equal to those possessed by tho persons to w oni the said salaries and enioliinients are paid" out of the pubhc revenue of this province ; and lastly, in addition to tlioscunnecessarv and excessive saUiries and expenses, > our Majesty's subjects of this province are also burdened wit I various and increasinnf fees paid to the otHcers of tne Civil Ooveinnient, which are Ifrievous to the subject, diininishiitn; the protection of the laws, the bcuetits of govern- ment, jects since the close of the last war with the United States of America ; but we have to perform the painful duty of humbly representing to your Majesty, that the monies thus appro )riated and applied under the direction of tiie Provincial Executive, have not produced the bene- ficial results that were to be expected from a le<>;al and judicious application of them, and have been tardily or insufficiently accounted for. It is wit I the utmost pain that we are compelled to represent to Your Majestv, that in this province of the British empire lar;^e sums of public money of the revenue levied within this province, have been applied, year after year, by ^>arrrutof tlie Executive Government, witliout any appropriation by the Lejrisiature of t e province, (at a time when the necessary appropriations were rejected in the said Lejfislative Council,) in pay- ment of alle<^ed expenses of the Civil Government, and other expenses for whir < no services were rendered to the province, or for neiv and increased salaries and allowances never reco;(nized by the Letrislature. Were we to refrain from coraplainin succeeded to the possession of those estates, subject to their being applied to the education of the youth of this province, conformably to their primitivo . destination ; and it is with the most profound grief that ^cted in t eniost unaccountable manner by the Executive (tovernmeut of the province, so that hirge portions of the said lauds, granted or reserved by the ('rown, have been long held, and continue to be held in the midst of, or in the immediate vicinity of actual settlement, Mithontthe o ners or poi^sessors thereof i aving been compelled to perform the dut of settlement upon w ich said lands were granted by the Crown, or any other duty in relation to t e said lands, to the grievous burden of the actual inhabitatits, the discouragement of new settlers, and the obstructiou of the general increase and pros- perity of the province. But of all the abuses of which the inhabitants of this province hJive to complain, the most afflicting to your Petitioners is, that during the prevale»c be maintained and secured in the full enjoyment of the constitution of government, as established b^ the Act passed in the Slst year of the reign of our late Sovereign, your Royal Father, without any alteration there- of whatsoever. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. ^: .. . . «■ . December, 1827. -. .'' .< . ....- [N. B — The Petitions to the Lords and Commons are tlie same as the abovej with only the necessary change of siyle ] Recapitulation of Signatures to the above Petition i CoontyofCom^^allist . « • • • «b 3,583 Deron -.-•.- 2,139 Hertford, ^ - • . - • 2,394 Dorc ester, ------ 4,157 Part of Buckinghamshire, - - - - 1,532 Ditto of Hampi^re, . . - . 1,346 Quebeok .«.--. 5,870' 5 *^ h ON THE CIYIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 337 ^14 County of Orleans, Nortbiimberland, •%• Total, District of Quebec, - County of Warwiclf, - ■Vt' 2ncl. Pebniary lrS98. 1,019 2,445 24.484 29,388 No. 2. Lower Canada Pelilions: Dis- Iriclsol Quebec, ' .•• » Resolutions on which the foregoingr Petition was founded. At a Meeting of the Electors of the CSty and Suburbs of Quebec, who approve of the conductof the House of Assembly, called fw the purpose of considerinif the expediency of submitting, by humble Petition to His Majesty and both Houses of Parliament, the present state of the Province, and the abuses and grievances which prevail therein au(l praying for relief and justice; hdd at Malhiot's Hotel, 13th December 1827 ;— Louis Abraham Lagueux, Esquire, in the Chair. ^ •' «t - ' ' ' ' ' ' ■■ ttwas Resolved, Ist. — That there was reason to hope, that in the Session of the PJ-oviotfial Parliament, lanembled on the 20th November last for the despatch of public business, the state of th» Urovince would have been improved, and the evils which weigh oo As inhabitants n^rae- died, or put in a course to be removed, and its peace, welfar<» &nd good government promotea. 2nd. — That the said session has been interrupted by the jvtfiisal on th« part of His Ex- ceUency the 6ovemor-in-chief to approve, accordiiv to Parliamentary ussge, the Speaker chosen and presented by the Assembly in ^^ usual manner, and by the procla- iiiftHon of the 22d November, proroguing the Provincial Parliament. 3d. — That it is expedient, under the fo''>S£8 of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, Itbe present state of the province, ap^^ the evils to which its inhabitants are exposed, in ■the hope that in the exercise of «^ years past the income of real estate in this jM-ovince, the pro- litg of trade and indxstry, and tne wages of labour therein, have greatly diminished, and lire still diminishing, with new and alarming features. 1 5th. — That besides the ensuring to the subject the most perfect security of his person lud property, the aiding and facilitating the diffusi excessive compared with the services rendered, and M'ith the income derived from reui estate, and the usual recompense obtained by individuals of talent, character andiudiistry equal to those of the persons who hold the said salaries and emoliunents. iOth. — That besides the unnecessary and excessive salaries, emoluments and oxponsos, fees increasing to a heavy and grievous amount are paid by the subject to divers otlicorH of Government, whereby individuals are burthcneu, the protection of tlie law and thi; benefit of government are lessened, and the resourses of the countr^ for its necessary wants dimmished. 1 1th. — That a majority of persons, chiefly dependent, fi»r the support of themselves and their families, on the salaries and emoluments of public oflices held during pleasure, have been placed in the Executive and Legislative Councils of this province, several of whom have a direct individual interest in maintaining and increasing the said excessive salaries, fees, emoluments and expenses, and perpetuating other abuses profitable to persons in ofllce. 12th. — That a majority in the said Legislative Council, chiefly consisting of Executive Councillors, Judges and other officers so holding, during pleasure, have year after year rejected, refused or neglected to proceed upon various necessary bills sent up, by the Representative Assembly of the province, for the remedy of abuses grievous to the sub- ject, for aiding in the diffusion of education, for furthering the general convenience and improvement of the country, for increasing the security of persons and property, and i)ro- motinw the common welfare and prosperity ; particularly. Various annual bills, grativiag the necessary sums for all the expenses of the Civil Government of the province, but regulating and settling limits to the expenditure. ■ For attording a legal course to th6 mbiect having claims against the Provincial Go- vernment. ' For regulating certain fees and offices. For enabling the inhabitants of the towns to ri*.ye a voice in the management of their local concerns, and a check on the expendituto of monies levied upon them by Assessment. For facilitating the administration of justice throumeut have been ap- pointed to other situations of honour, trust and profit. 17th. — That the college and revenues of the estates of the late order of Jesuits in this province, originally erected and formerly applied for the civil and religious education of the youth of this province, have not been so applied for many years past, and are in no way accountedfor to the Legislature or the inhabitants of this prorince. 18th. — That large portions of the waste lands granted or reserved by the Crown in this Srovince have been long held, and continue to he held, in the midst of, or in the imitic- iate vicinity of actual settlements, without the owners or possessors thereof having been compelled to perform the duty of settlement upon which such lands were granted by the Crown, or any other duty in relation to the said lands, to the grievous burthen of tho actual settlers, the hindrance of new settlers, and the obstruction of the general increase and prosperity of the province. 19th — That during the prevalence of these and other abuses and grievances, false re- presentations and attempts have been repeatedly made by divers officers of the Provincial Executive, to obtain from His Majesty's Government in England, and the Parliament of the United Kingdom, various alterations in the constitution of the government of this province, as established by an Act of the British Parliament, prejudiciu to therjghts and interests of this province, without their knowledge, and at a time when the said i»habitants were prevented by the said majority of executive councillors, judges and otiier officers in the Legislative Council, from having an authorized agent in England to attend to their interests, and enable them to be heard by the Government of the mother country. 20th. — That the revival or continuation, by the Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom (4:ib Geo. IV. c. 6), ofteqsporary duties imposed by the Provincial Acts, were so oDtainea, as well as the Acts affecting the tenures of land in this province, the whole prejudicial to the dearest rights and essential interests of the inhabitants of this province, and without the knowledge or consent of the persons chiefly affected by the said Acts. 21st. — That the aforementioned Application of monies levied in this province, without appropriations by the Legis- lature thereof. The said advances of money to persons who have not sufficiency accounted for tho same, The said dissipation of public money, and appointment of persons to be entrusted with public monies without full security given. The diversion of the revenues of the estates of (he late order of the Jesuits from purpo- ses of education of the youth of this province, " The I- 'U ! . < MO APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELeCT COMMITTEE Nd.S. Lower Canada reiitions: Dis. trjcu orQuibec ' n ' * I The incxecution of (he qonditionsoftheffrantaof fheivastelandfl of the Crown, and •foresaid attempts on the part of the officers of the Executive Oovernment to ob- tain illtt:i.''t'ons iu Englana of the established constitution and laws of the province, J without the knowledge of the inhabitants generally, and without their having had an opportunity of being heard, Are grievances dangerous to the peace, welfare and good government of this province. 22nd. — That the prayer of the petition to His Majesty be, that He would take the pre- mises into His most gracious consideration, and so exercise His Royal Prerogative tl)at His subjects in this province be relieved from the said abuses and grievances, and that justice be done therein ; that the inhabitants of this province be secured in the full enjoy- ment of the consitution of government, as established by ttie Act passed in the 31 st year of the reign of His late Royal Father, of revered memory. 23d. — That the prayer to both Houses of Parliament be, that they would take the pre- mises into consideration, cause an inquiry to be made, and the petitioners to be heard, that justice may be done thereon, and the fiKbject in this province be secured in the full en- joyment of the constitution of goveniment, as established by the Act of the Parliament of (ireat Britain, passed in tke 31'< year of the reign of His late Majesty, without any alteration thereof whatsoever. 24tli. — That a Committee of Thirty-five electors, duly Qualified by law to rote for members of the Assembly of this province, be appointed to araftand prepare petitions on the foregoing resohitioas, with full power to taxe all the necessary steps for submitting them for the signatuni of the electors generally, for causing the said petitions to be laid at tlie foot of the Throne and presented to the Lords and Commons, and also to give effect to and support tiie same by evidence. 25th.'^That this meeting will contribute and assist in procuring voluntary subscriptions to cover the necessary expenditure for the aforesaid purposes. 26th. — Tliat Messrs. Amable Berthelot, Francois Blanchet, J. L. Borgia, J. B. E. Bacquet, Robert Blakiston, Michel Borne, J. Bigaouette, Michel Clouet, John Cannon, Joseph Dorion, Etienne Defoy, John Duval, John Eraser, H. G. Forsyth, Pierre Fau- cher, Joseph Gagne, A. R. Hamel, H. 8. Huot, Louis Lagueux, Joseph Legare, pere, Louis Lagueux, fils, Jacques Leblond, Et C. Lt^fu^u^c, Jean Langevin, Ignace Le^ar^, J. L. Marett, Louis Massue, Joachim Mtf&dore, John Neilson, Vallidres de St. Heal, Pierre Pelletier, Joseph Roy, Augt. Oauthief, and Louis Fortier, do compose the said Committee, and that nine form a quorum ; notices in writing of the time and place of meeting being previously left at the domicile of each of the said Committee. 27ib. — That the said Committee have power to add to their number, and be empower- ed to aid in forwarding similar petitions from any other parts of this district, in cases where applications may be made to them to that effect, and where contributions may Iinve heeu made to the funds of the said Committee in aid of the afore-mentioned expen- diture. 28th. — That Joseph' Roy, esquire, be treasurer of the said committee, and be held to account to tkc said committee, and a meeting of electors publicly called, and that all pay- ments made \y him be vouched by orders of the said committee, attested by the signature of the secretary. .\;' \ , *:' " LOUIS A. LAGUEUX, President, ■ ^ , H. S. HUOT, Secretary. At a meeting of the Committee, Friday, 14th Decemh^ 1827, the foUotring oflBcers wereappointed :--J. R. Valli^res de St. Real, esquire, president; Henry George Forsyth, esouire, and Louis Abraham Lagueux, esquire, vice-presidents ; Messrs. H. S. Huot and J. B, £. Baoquct, secretaries. , . . ' ' H. S. HUOT, Secy. ■i'.-. ■.Hx:'~< ^k ' PROVINCE s ON THB CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. PROVINCE OF LOWER CANADA. Petition of the Couutios intho Districts of Montreal and Three Rivers. HI No. 9. Lower CaiiMdn I'eiition* : l)i«- tricii uf Quc< [The Original of this Petition having been in French, it is ^ven in preference to the^"^*^' Eiifflish. The Petitions to tlie Lords and Coranioua are the same •» the Petition to the' ' "''^ ' King, with the necessary changes in the style.] A h Tria Excellcnte Majestu du Roi. w* f. JjA Petition des soussignes fiddles ct loyaux Sujets de Votre Majeste r^ldens danv I9 Ba« Canada. Qu'il plaisei Votre Majest^« . Dans une partie ^loign^ des immenses domaines de TOtre M^estS^, il existo un peuple eu nombreux, il est vmi, mais fiddle et lojral : il jouit avec orgueil et rcconnaissaiice, sous la domination de TPwM C*n«<1« ^''"'"*'"" ''* ■*"" devoir noinme admiiiiHtrateur du KOiivernement de cette |iroviiic(>, iioiniiH; I'ttiiion^: Dit- ''**.^" Halo, iirraJ, Huiiit trtcu of quv- <^xiffer ni reau4rir d« lui les aAretes ordiaaireH ruquinvH pour asHurer la due PXt'>cutIou bvc, Ac. dea devoirs ae cette place. * *- v ' ■ — ' II s'eat en difKrens terns servi d« son autorite comme Commandant en Chef, pour infln. encer, iutiniider les habitano de cette province duns I'exercise do lours droits civils et po- ll tiaues. II H comme Commandant en riw>f renvoy<» et disjjracie un grand nnmbre d'ofiicicrs do milice dans la province, sans (Uiuse juste, ouraison siittiti.tnte. II a sans cause, ou ra:son sutlisante, lu'liitrairemcut et despotiquement, reiivov«'' »t prive phiHieurs olficiers civils des places de nnntiance et de responsabilite qu'lls occu- paient, ct ce an prejudice de cos ulftciers etdu HervvH etiiblics Sar la loi, iniposant par la un fardeau considerable aux sujets de votre Mujedt^, ct unc epense enorme a la province. 11 a, par des proroffataons et dissolution subites et violentes du Parlenient Provincial nui aux int^rets pubPics de cette province, retarde ses prog^res, enipeclie la passatinn d'actes utiles. II a dans ses discours lors de telles prorot^ations, faussenient accuse les repp^seutans du peuple, afin de les decrier dans Toninion de leurs constituauH et dans la Tue de crecr aupr^s du pouvernement de votre Majeste des prejuj^^s detavorables a la loyaute et au caract^re dos sujets Canadiens de votre Majeste. tl a tolere et perniis que les Gazettes du Oouvernemcnt publiees sous son autorite ou sous son controle, portuN- sent journellement les accusatious les plus tausses et les plus caloronieuses coutro la Charaure d'Assembl^e, ainsi que contre tout le peuple de cette province. II a parle mf me moyen menac^ le pays d'exercer la Prerojrative Royale d'une maniere violante, despotiqueetdesastreusc, c est-iVdire, de dissoudrc continuellement, ou selon I'cxpress.ion insultante de ces menaces, de chasser le corps representatif jusqu'a ce que les fraucs-tenanciers et les proprietaires so vissent oblifjes de choisir pour representans, noii [fins ceux qui auraient leur contianue, mais ceux qui seraient disposes & tout accordrr a 'Executif et k lui sacrifier le droit qu'a le peuple de cette province, agissant par ses re- presentaus, de determiner quelle somme cles dcniers publics radministratiou aura le droit ded^penser, etd'assurer Temploi fiddle de ces deniers; ou bien qu'il punirait la province en rejetaut les bills passes par les repr^sentaus du peuple pour I'avanta^e fren^ral, jnsqu'a re qu'ils abandonnassent le droit de fixer ct de controier ia depeiise ; et que les ma^istrat' ct les jujfes du pays seraient, aussi bicn que les bas olficiers, destitues des hautes et im- portantes. places qu'ils occupont, et qui, dans I'interct public comme dans I'iuteret deg particuliers, exigent Tiudependance et rimpartialite la plus absolue, s'ils ii'etaient ]ju8 agr^ables a la presente administration. II a, conformeineiit a la politique vindicative ainsi avou^e par ces ecrivain' ^ ployes, piini en effet le pays, en ne donnant point la sanction Royab' n bills d'up- uropriation pour aider Jes progrds ct I'amelioration du pays en " .xuuels votr** Majcste a bien voulu depuis donner sa sanction, et en pennettant a .tiseiUers exe« tits et autres personnes sous sou controle ct possedant des places di plaisir, de se st vir de leur preponderance dans le Conseil Le^islatit'dont ils sont aus^s, nibrr , pour sup- {(orter cette politique vindicative et rejeter en 1 827, tous les bills d'approj iation pour 'avancement de la Province et pour des objets de charite qui avaieut ete pai>.«tt's annuelle- ment depuis un ^^nd noinbre d'annces. II a viole les franchises electives des habitans de cette province, en e8S<\yant direr fe- int et indirecteinent d'influer sur reiectiou des membres du la Chambie d'i incnt de cette province. ;h 'Assembles II UH ;•> ,<•* •e d'ofliciiTH do oiitroU', portiis- euHes coutro la ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. I .r. 343 tl a cnfin, par tout cm di vent actes d'oppreMion, cr66 dans toot le pays no aentimcnt N";^ d'aiarme et m^froatentemrut, di\trecie rautorit^ du puuvoir judiviairo dans ropinion pu- p"^*'' ^'" l>li(|iii', attiiibli la cunriiuicff du |i«iipl« dauH rudiiiiniBtratiuu de lajuHtic*, et iimpire '^•(■■"iric'i" of Quu touto In provinutf uii SL'titiiiieiit iiisuriuoiitublti do iiieiiuuco, d« soupvuQ et do do||[odt coutre ^^^.^ ^^^^ son adminiittration. «■ ' ^ NouH uMOUB dune supplier votro Mnjost^ dpvouloir bion prendre en m Royale consids nous Ic poidH de tunt d'Hct4>H d'opprcsiiiiun nous avons cru devoir sup- Itlier votre MujeHte du vouloii bicn, imur riiitunH de nou service duns rette volonie, ot 'avantaf^e de nes lid^lcH si^jets y rottidens, rapueler pour toujoura s<»u Excelleuco le gou- verueur on clief, coinme ne pouvant plus jouir do la conBance publique daus cette pro- vince, ni on aJmiiiistrer le •fouvcruemeut avec hoaueur pour la Cuuronuu ou avec avau- tuj^e pour lo peuplo. Qu'il plaisc 4 votre Majcste, '.' . . . n* . . ' ,, •. ^< \ , Privcs comme nous le sommes maintenant, par la prorofi^ation du Parlement Provincial, des services publics de nos represcntaoH, dos services que nous avions droit d'attendro da Icur zdle counu pour les interots de la province, et do lour patriotisme eprouve, nous Nomraes dauH la necessite de soumettro nous-mdmes k la bienveillaute consideration da yotrc Mujeut^, (^uelques objets que nous estimons de la plus haute importance pour le bien> etre du nays, oiyctx ^ui tendont ^([ralemeut & assuror lo bonheur du penple, et k rendre cette colouie plus utile & rEiapire Britannique, ce qui ne pout qu'iiitereascr lo cceur Koyale do votre Mujeste, sous le double rapport do p«^re de sou peuplo et do chef supremo d'un puissant empire. L'odu(;iition est le premier des Lions qu'un piro puisse donner k son fils, le premier des bions qu'une legislation eclair6e puisse assurer aux peuples. En rendant justice aux ef- forts qui out cte faits dans ce pays vers cot objet important, par plusieura corps et par un fn'and nombrede particuliers, ou ne pout cepeudant disconvenirquol'educntion publiquo ii'tjst pas encouragee danf ce pays en proportion de ses besoins. Et pourtuut la province u'otiiit pas dopourvue do moyens : la muniticence des Rois de France et les bientaits do quelques particuliers n'avoicut rieii laiss^ k desirer k ce sujet. Des fpndations vraiment ro.valea taut par lour objet que par lour etendue, assuraient k ce, pays des rossourcea Huf- ti!uuit«H pour le tems, et croissaiites avec les besoins de la population. Dopuis rextinctioii <1p t'ordi'ti des Jesuites en ce pays, ses biens sont pass^>s aux mains du guuverucmeat do vutre Majeste. Votre Majoste pent seule les rendre a leur premiere, k ieur bienfaisante destiimtioiu Nous Ten supplioiis tri^s-bumblement. Qu'il ne puisse pus etre dit que cette province aete privee sousle gouvernemeut du RoicoimtitutionueldelaOrande Bretague, di'Nbieufaits quo le Roiabsolu do la France lui avait conferes pour Teducatiou do ses luibituns. Uu des droits naturels, fondamentaux, inalientiblcs des siijets Britanniques, un 4e8 titres de leur gloire et de leur sArete, c'est le droit de so taxer eux-memes et de contribuer libremcnt aux charju'es publiques selon leur moyens. A ce titre uaturel uous joig'nous encore les droits resultans de la loi ecrite, des Actcs du Parlement Imperial qui doclarent quo rAnjrloterre renonce 4 iroposer des taxes daus les colonies, et qui donuent a cette province le droit de faire des lois pour sa tranquillite, son bonheur, et son bon ffouvernement. Nous supplions humblement votre Mitjesto d'oxcuser notre temerite, ou bien plutut d'approuver la contiauce en votre justice et en cello du Parlement Imperial, qui nous engage a nous plaindre de ce que ces droits ont ete lezes d'une maniere jrrave par des Actes du Parlement Imperial. Nous faisous allusion surtout a I'actede commerce du Canada, passe dans la troisiemo anuoe du rdpio de votre Majeste, ch, 119, et ^ celui des tenures des terres, passe dans la sixieme annee du re^nede votre Majeste, ch. 59 1)1.- I, contre lequel uous avons doja adrosse par la voie i humbles reclamations : Tun etablit directement de no' epresentans k votre Majeste nos des iniputs dans cette colonie, et Ioh rend perpetuels sans la participation du Pai'lement Provincial; I'autre touche ides objets dc legislation interieuresurlesquels nous croyons humblement que la legislature coloniale avait pleine jurisdiction. Nous croirions. Sire, meritcr bien peu les inestimables bionfaits que nous procure la oons-'tiition qui nous regit, si nous ne fesions tous nos effoits pour la couserver intacte. I C'est ^,1 ouver combicu uoua en sentons tout le prix. M 1.; 1 ,1 ' i! ■ 1 k I ' ,1 'ii Iii! 3«4 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM 8ELEC3T COMMITTEE trie Is of Que- bec, &c. jji,, e. La cumulation dans one eenleetmeme personne de plusleura places importantes iam Lower Caondacescolonies et qui nous semblentiocompatibles, est un obstacle viyement senti, un obsta- Petitions: Dis-cle considerable au bon ffruyernmeat de cette province. Nous Tovons dans ce pays les places de juges du Banc du Roi, de conseillers ex^cntiis et I^islatifs, possMcps par la meme (j^rsonne. Nous crovons humblement que ess hautes fonctioos dcrraient t'tre exeroMs insol^mentau lieu d'etre cumulees: que les Jufjfes bom^saux importantes fonc- tions de leur 6tat ne dcvraient pas singer dans les conseils : que les oonseulers iegislatifs ne devraient pas etre admis an oonseil ex'^cutif, et vice versa : qu'>i serait convenable que lesjuges fiissent plus independans,8ujtts settlement avec les autre* jrrands fonctionnaires publics & un tribunal ^tablt dans la province pour juger des impeachmenis. ^ou8 avons 4ejii Fait des representations et des demarches concemaot ces differens objets par le moyen de nos representans dans la Chambre d^Assemblee. Les mesures par eux prcposees ont «choue dans les autres branches de la Legislature. Nous supplions humblement votrc Majestc de vouloir bien prendre en sa consideration royale les maux nombreux qui doivent incvitablement rcsnlter de cette distribution impolitique, et pen sage de tons les pouvoirs du gouvemement afin qu'etant tres-justemcnt conoamn^s par votre Majeste, il vons plaise ordonner k tos Miuistres de donner des instructions au gouvemement coloniale a cesujet, de manidre ik autoriser la passatiou d'Actesparle Parlement Provincial, quitcu- draient k corriger ces abns. L'accroissement rapide de la population depnis la premiere demarcation des comtes, rcn- dant n^cessaire un changement correspondant dans la repr^entation provinciale, notre Parlement jugea prudent, commemesure preliminaire, de constater I'etat actuel de la po- pulation, par un reoensement qui devait servirde base aux changemens a faire dans la repre> sentation. La Chambre d'Assembl^e passaensuite ^ plusieurs reprises un bill pour aug- menter le nombre des comtes et des representans. Ces bills ont ^galement ^houe dans les autres branches de la legislature. n est encore un objet qui interesse i^ivement le peuple de cette province ; c'est la nomin ion d'un agent provincial accredite,i .auprds du gouvemementd* votre Maj'Mste, qui pourrait parvenir aux pieds du Trone, I'expression de nos besoins, fonmir aux miuistres tre Majesty des renseignemens utiles et veiller k nos interets particuliers. Cett« ses repr^sentans Les accusations ation iaire de votre province & dej& plus d'une fois eprouv6 le besoin d'un semblable agent n'ont pas encore mi r^ussir h obtenir la passation d'un Acte k cet effet. Chambre ne pourant gudre Atre le canal de communication dont les plus accuses puissent se servir avec oonfiance pour dofendte leur cause. Nous supplions humUcmont votre Majesty de vouloir bien ordonner 4 vos Miuistres de donner des instructions au Gou- vemement Coloniale, en vcrtu desquelles un bill pour I'augmentation de la represen- tation puisse etresanctionne, ain!>i qu'un bill pour accorder a cette province Tavantage dont jouissent la plupart des autres colonies de votre Majeste, celui d'avoir un agent colonial,- nommS et depute par le peuple de la colonic, pour veiller a ses interets en Angleterre Le tout tr^s-humblenient soumis a la bienveillancc et a la sagesse de votre Majeste, par les fiddles etloyaux sujets de votre Majeste dans le Bas-Caniwa, les Petitionnaires sous- signes qui comme il est de leur devoir ne cesseront de prier. Bas-Canada, Janvier 1828. h.j '<». ';>i>r U' illil .i i: •,■■•;;•>', f^ ; . Il' iS. i • t . ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, ma f.,» t^.^.>. Recapitulation of Sigi!?ature8, to February 6, 1828 : ■,,* -' ~^- County of Montreal, • • - • • 7,753 Kent, 2,163 , Huntingdon, ... - 5,327 Leiaster, - - - - > 6,192 'If!' i.fi- Surrey, - ... - 3,080 ; r -. Bedford, 1,342 ;- . ., . York, 4,199 ■ i, '.-•:. Richelieu, ----- 8,175 Effingham, - > - ... 2,654 jt'*rj\:%f v-> errand Total, 87,090 J ( 1 N t k- t •,:i. ■J % ^ irr \.^ Chturmen of the several county committees who have certified the appointment of the agents to the Petitioners, viz : Messrs. Neilson, Viger and Cuvillier, members of the .^isembly of Lower Canada ; — Fran. Desiividres, chairman of the petitioners in the county of Montreal ; Frans. Ant. La Rocque, Montreal ; Rene de la Sruere, county of Kent ; Lnt. Le Roux, county of Leinster ; Pierre Amiot, county of Surrey ; Chs. St. Ours, county of Richelieu ; P. D. Debartzch, county of Richelieu; Hertel de Rouville, county of Bedford ; Fran9oi8 Xavier Malfaiot, county of Surrey ; Ignace Raizenne, county of York ; Louis Roy Portelance, Montreal District of Montreal, February 1828. ^ = ^ '* APPENDIX No. 3. No. 3. To the Hononrable the Knights, Citizens and Buivesses, representing the Commons of |„^3{|||)||,|^^'{^ the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireumd, in parliament assembled. the Townships on S. E. or S.. ThePBTrnoNof the Subscribers, His Majesty's dutiful and loyal Subjects, of British Lawrence, in birth or descent, Inhabitants of the Townships of Drnham, Stanbridge, St. Armand, Sut- Lower Canad ton, Potton, Stanstead, Barnston, Barfora, Hereford, Fatnhain, Brome, Bolton, Hat-*"""~^ ~" ~* ley, Compton, Clifton, Granby, Shefford, Stukely, Orford, Ascott, Eaton, Newport, Bury, Hampden, Milton, Rozton, Durkam, Melbome, Windsor, Shipton, Stoke, Duds- weir, Simpson, Kingsey, Grantham, Wiokham, Wendover, Brompton, and otiier Town- ships and Places situate in the Province of Lower Canada ; Humbly Sheweth. That the number of inhabitants, of british blvcu or descent, now residing in the pro- vince of Lower Canada, exceeds 80,000 souls, a greater amount than all the inhabitants of the country when it first became a colony of England. That the townships of Lower Canada from a li^ portion of the territorial extent of the li 7 I> -.1 ■'.: i, 11 '' I i i^ N.. 346 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE ', M, Petition of th ^'^^P™^""®* Bcparate from the seicrnories or old French feudal ^rrants thereof, and are Inbabtianis of ^'°'^*'''**^'*y * population of upwards of 40,000 souls, almost wholly composed of persons ih» Tovniihips "f British birth or descent, M'hose numbers nre (continually aug^roentinnf, besides their oi> S. E.of St.uatural increase, by the desirable accession of emigrants from the mother country. J^wrewe, in That, SO long as the year 1763, His Majesty's proclamation assured to his subjects. Lower Canada, coming to settleupon the then ungranted lands' in ('anada, the benefit of the laws of his "^ ""* realm of England. That the assurances of this proclamation were as to them sanctioned and confirmed, by the exception contained in the Statute, I4th Geo. 3, witich declared that the provisions of the said Act, establishing French laws, should not extend nor hh construed to extend to lands to be granted in free and common soccage, the exclusive tenure of the townships. ■ That no provincial enactments or provisions were made towards carrying hato practical operation the valued privileges of the English laws, which had been as aforesaid assured to them; although the wishes of tiie townships in that particular were loudly expressed and universally known. That in consequence, the imperial Parliament, in its beneficenco, was pleased in the sixth year of the reign of His present Majesty to pass an Act, not loss called for by a due regard to national honour, than by a sense of justice to your Peti- tioners; wherein any doubts too «cr{/»u/jus/^ entertained in respect to the construction of the aforesaid statute 14th Geo. 3, have been happil) removed, in relation to the town- ships and the English laws regardinn;' tenures establisl.ed therein. That it hath come to t'le knowledge of your Petitioners that numbers of the inhaltit- ants of the seignories, influenced by the French Canadian leaders of the House of Assem- bly, are now petitioning the Imperial Legislature for the repeal of the before-mentioned statute of the sixth year of His present Majesty, commonly called tiie " Canada Tenures .ACT* That jour Petitioners, for the blessing conferred by the said statute of the Imperial Parliament, in bestowing upon them the benefit of the laws of their parent country, and 1 (reserving the ties and < haracter which connect them with the empire to which they be- ong, feel a weight of gratitude greater than they can express, and M'ill at all times be ready to defend those ties against every invader or enemy either in Lower Canada or else- where. Their gratitude is also deeply felt on behalf of their countrymen the emigrants from Great Britain, who may now be induced in great numbers to settle among them, but who, without the benefit of English laws, would for the most part have been led to seek an asylum elsewhere, as they have unhappily for this province too often done in times past. T lat in order to give practical eft'ect and scope to the benefits conferred upon them by the recent Act of the Imperial Parliament, and also to prevwt the machinations of the French Canadian House of Assembly to theirruin, it becomes necessary that theto" nships, which have never hit erto been represented in the Provincial Legislature, notwithstand- ing their repeated solicitations in that behalf, should be divided into counties entitled to send members to the Provincial Legislature, and that competent courts and jurisdictions ,, , - V should be established among them for the administration of justice in conformity to the •„•.;, la" s which have been beneficently accorded to them by the mot! -er country. • . ' ••■ That while your Petitioners were waiting patiently the eft'ect of their repeated solicita- '■ > ' lions for redress pf grievances to be administered by the Provincial Legislature, the Le- 1 ; " . gislative Council, inthe session of the year 1825, by recommendation of His Excellency \. .'L^ . the Governor-irl-Chicf, passed a bill of the most salutary description, introducing into these townships the English law of dower and conveyance, and making encumbrances special, establishing also public offices therein for the enregistratiou of all mutatious of real property and of all mortgageson the same. That though this bill, carefully abstaining from every unnecessary innovation, neither disturbed the routine not touched the customs of the French Canadians in tlie seignories, the House of Assembh , evincing its characteristic disregard for the claims of your Peti- tioners, neglected to proceed upon the said bill when sent down for concurrence ; and they ar^ therefore constrained to pray the interference of the Imperial Parliament for the establishment of register offices as aforesaid. Your Petitioners therefore humbly pray that your honourable House will be pleased to pass an Act to authorize the erection of the towlkships into a competent number of coun- ties according to extent of territory, to the end that the interest of the population of emigrant ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 347 No. 3. frmiorrant sottlcre may be provided for by a due proportion of representation equivalent to Petition of the their just claims ; and also to establish such competent number and description of courts Inbabitantii of and jurisdictions as the interests of these extensive sections of the province and the ends *''*„'^9^*"''*"P» of justice may require. And fi/rther, to establish public offices ot re^stry, for the en- j[|'a,„e„ce" n ' registration of all Acts and deeds conveying or encumbering real property therein. Luwvr tanada. And your Petitioners, as in dutj bound, •will ever pra,v, &c. &c. 1':; \:<.ii Ih ■••-tiw. l»/ •■.t- ^;» ■(•■:(,• ' V-i i APPENDIX No. 4 1' \.l INDENTURE for conveying a certmn Tract of Land in the County of Montgomery, No. 4. now the Count}' of Herkimer. Indemuri' for conveying laud This Indenture made the thirteenth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand '"'^*'^^^'"'"'>'''*^ seven hundred and ninety-six, between of the City of Nevv-^_J^|]_f^'_^^^ York, counsellor of law, and his wife, and of the same place, counsellor of la^-, and bis wife, of the first part ; and of the city of London, in the Kingdom of Great Britain, merchant, of the other part; Witnesseth, that the said and his wife, and and his wife, for and in con- sideration of the sum of three thousand two hundred pounds, lawful money of the state of New York, to them in hand paid, at or before the ensealing and delivery of these presents, by the said uiti.i j , the receipt wheieof is hereby confessed and acknow- ledged ; and the said and his heirs, executors and administrators, for ever released and discharged from the same by these presents; Have granted, bargained, sold, aliened, remised, released, conveyed, assured, enfeoffed, and confirmed, and, by these presents, do grant, bargain, sell, alien, remise, rekoiie, convey, assure, enfeoff and con- iirm, fully, freely and absolutelr, unto the said and his lieirs and assigns for ever, all that certain tract of land situite in the county of Montgo- mery, now the county of Herkimer, being part of the Indian purchase made by and and their associates, under a license granted to andl and known and dis- tinguished, in a division of the said purchase into townships, by the name of Township Number Forty, beginning at the most westerly corner of township Number Six, in the north east bounds ot to wuship Number Five and running thence along the said north cast bounds oftownship Number Five, and the north east bounds of township Forty-one, north tliirty degrees, west five hundred and twenty-five chains, thence north sixty deuces, east four hundred and eighty chains, thence south thirty degrees, east five hundred and twenty-five chains, and then south sixty degrees, west four hundred and eighty cimins, to the place of beginning, (all which courses are run as the needle pojnted in the year one thousand seven hundred and seventy-two), containing tnenty-five tliousaud two hundred acres, granted by the people of the state of New York to by letters patent, bearing date the fourteenth day of August, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty six ; subject nevertheless to the exceptions, reserva- tions and conditions in the said letters patent contained : Together with all and singular the appurtenances, privileges and advantages whatsoever, unto the said above-mentioned and described premises in any wise appertoining or belonging, and the reversion or re- versions, remainder and remainders, rents, issues and profits thereof; and aI^ -If 848 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE Indenture for *°^ ** *^* same, and eyery paitand parcel thereof, with the appurtenances : To hstyo conveying land'^'^^^ ^^^^ the above grantea,'1>argained and described premises, with the appurten- in the county ori">ce8, unto the said and his heirs and assigns, for their own Montgomery, proper use, benefit and behoof for ever. And the said and •* for themselves, their heirs, executors and administrators, do covenant, promise, grant and agree, to and with tHe said and his heirs and assigns, that the above granted premises, and every part and parcel thereof, with the appmrtenances, now are and for ever hereafter should be and rcnuiin unto the said and his heirs and assigns, free and abso- lutely clear, discharged and unincumbered, of and from all former and other titles, charges, estates or uicumbrances, of what nature and kind soever, had, made, committed, done or suffered, or to be made, committed, done or suffered by the said and or either of them, or their heirs and assigns, or by ^ny other person or persons whomsoever, any thing having or claiming in the premises. And also, that the said and and their heirs and all and every other person or persons whomsoever, lawfully or equitably deriv- ing any estate, right, title or interest of, in or to tlie herein before granted premises by, from, under or in trust for them, shall and will, at any time or times hereafter, upon ttie reasonable request of the said and at the proper costs and charges, in the law, of the said ' or his heirs and assigns, make, do and execute, or cause or procure to be made, done and executed, all and every such further and other lawful and reasonable conveyances and assurances in the law, for the better and more effectually vesting and confirming the premises hereby intended to be granted, in and to the said ^ . tiis heirs or assigns for ever, as by the said "^ or his heirs or assigns, or his or their counsel, learned in the law, shall be reasonably devised, advised or required : And tlie said and for them and their heirs, executors and administrators, will warrant, and by these presents for ever defend the above described and released premises, and every part and parcel thereof, unto the said and his heirs and assigns, absolutely forever. In witness whereof, the paiities to these presents, have heieunto interchangeably set their hands and seals the day and year first above written. (Signed) l*'i •', Signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of INDORSEMENTS. State of New York, at : Beit remembered, that on the thirteenth day of May, in the J ear of our Lord one thousand, seven hundred and ninety six, personally appeared Bfore me one of the Masters in Chancery of the State of New York, tj^e within named and his vrife, and V' • ^' and ^ his wife, who severally acknow- ledged, ::* 'A ■^1 ' 01* The civil CtoVERitMBNTf OF CANADA. lH' led^e^, that they respectively si^ed, sealed, executed and delivered the tiithia deed and ^o* * release as and for their voluntary act and deed, to and for the uses and purposes therein ^ Indenture for mentioned; and I having examined the said tne wife o^ thej|^"J|*'^*^ "^ fiaid and the said the wife of the said Montgomery. separately and apart, and privately and apart from their said « respective husbands, they severally confessed and acknowledged that they had executed the said deed freely and without any fear or compulsion of or from their said respective husbands, and there being no material rasures or interlineations therein, except the one noted, I do allow the same to be recorded. (Signed) Received this thirteenth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and ninety-six, the sum of three thousand and two hundred pounds from the within named the within grantee, being the consideration money within mentioned ; in witness whereof we have hereunto set our hac-'<'. (Signed) '<.|; Witnessed by Recorded in the Secretary's Office of the State of New York, in book of deeds endors- M R ed . Q page 363, &c. this seventeenth day of May, one thousand seven hundred and ninety six. (Signed) -D. Secy. p ■ and Letters Patent to APPENDIX, No. 5. , Township No. 40, in Purchase, in 1772, continuing 25,800 acres. No. s. Letteri Patent to The People of the State of New York, by the Grace of God, Free and Independent: To all to whom these present shall come, greeting : Know ye, that we have given, granted and confirmed, and by these presents, do give, grant and confirm unto all that certain tract of mud sitiute in the county of Montgomery, being part of die Indian purchase made by and and their as- sociates, laider a license granted to and and known and distinguishei, in a division of the said purchase into townships, by the name of township Number Forty. Beginning at the most westerly comer of township Number Six, in the north-east bounAn of township Number Five, and running thence along the said no'rth- east bounds of township Number Five, and the north-east bounds 9i township Number Forty one, north thirty degrees, west five hundred and twenty five chains ; tlien north sixty degre(j-5-,vi January H '\ 'Mi y'tm iJ 3^ APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE to No <; Jap^J^'y n^'f* ensuinjr the date hereof, there shall be one aotiial settlement made on tl.P Letter. Va'tcnl.T** tract of land hereby granted for every nix hundred and forty acres thereof, otherwise tiiese our letters patent, and the estate hereby jjranted, cease, determine and become void • — , In testimony wliereof, we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the jrreat seal of our said State to be hereunto affixed. Witness our trusty and welUl)eloved r.u' c i. ,wi. .,. . '^'squ're.. Governor of our said State, General and Commander in Chief of all the militia, and Admiral of the Navy of the same, at our city of New York thi* fourteenth day of August, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eiffhtr SIX, and in the eleventh year of our independence. '^^a^'nc^* approved of by the Commissioners of the Land office, and passed the Secretary's office, the I4th day of August 1786. » , .,.,'. > Secretary. nv« ^ PiJ v" rt"" r-«».i*'>' ("■ . V-.1.V.-.J . ■fC ■ . SEAL: A . i^ .-. RISING SUN ; ROCK EXCELSIOR, Rising out of the Sea, encircled with encircled with " THE GREAT SEAL OF THE " F R U S T R A, STATE OF NEW YORK." 1772." *. ( APPENDIX No 6. Land. I'VJ- ut 'ir ¥) I Cfra i Kfr w a Bw- 'it Ssr t Conveyance for 38,900 Acres of Land, in the Counties of Washington and Clinton, in No. 6. the State of New-York; July 1769. Conveyance for -"'*^s ^- • •'« '" '» '• ^ 38900 Acres of rp^g Indenture, made the sixteenth day of June, in the year of Our Lord one thou8an>' and ; also one other tract of two hundred acres conveyed to the said _ andsubject nethertheless to the conditions^ covenants and agreements expressed in the patent aforesaid: Together with all and singular tJie appurtenances, privileges and advantages whatsoever, unto tnesaidabovementionodaud described premises in any wise appertaining or belonging, and the reversion or revcrsi(ms, reraAinder and remainders, rents, issues and profits thereof; and also all the est.tte, / rij-ht ■r • h ■ K i: 3A8 APPENBIX TO REPORT fROM SELECT COMMITTEE iv, rigf1)t,tit1«, Interest, property, claim and demand whatsoever of the said parties of the first No. e. pmi^ . Jo have and to nold the said two tracts of land with the appurtenances (subject to MMO^crn of**"® exceptions, reservations and conditions aforesaid) to the said his heirs, Land. (^"^ assijfns, for the only proper use, benefit and behoof of the said his heirs ^executors, administrators or assigns for ever. And the said parties of the first part for themselves, their heirs, executors and administrators, doth hereby covenant, promise and agree to and with the said his heirs, executors, administrators and assigns, that they the said parties of the first part, at the tame of the ensealing and deliverr of these presents, are lawfully seized in their own right of in and to the saia two tracts of land hereby conveyed, with the appurtenances, and have in themselves good right, full power and lawful authority to grant and convey the same (with the exceptions and reser- vations aforesaid) to the said his heirs and assigns, as of a ffood, sure, perfect, ab- solute and indefeasible estate of inheritance in the law m fee simple, and also that be the' said his heirs or assigns, shall and may from time to time, and at all times here- after, peaceably and ouietly occupy, possess and enjoy the before-described premises, with the appurtenances, subject to the exceptions, conditions and reservations al^oresaid. And the said parties of the first part, for themselves, their heirs, executors and administrators, engage to warrant, and by these presents for ever to defend the above-described and released premises, and every part and parcel thereof. In witness whereof, the said parties of the nnt part have hereunto set their hands and seak the day and )ear first above written. •«>•; |i-:-"'. 1/* !>:'., ^^i■;^ V :,»..• f-i L.S. L.S. L. S. L. S. ■^V"'*" ■4h INDOR8EMEMS. Be it remembered, that on the seventeenth day of June, one thousand seven hundred tihd ninety-five, appeared before me one of the Masters in Chancery for the State of New York, and his wife, and and and his t^e, who severally acknowledged that they signed, sealed and delivered this instrument for the purposes therein mentioned ; and the said and being by me pri- "i^ately and apart examined from tbeir husbands, respectively acknowledged that they nad signed, sealed and delivered the same without any threat, fear or compubion of their said respective husbands ; and I having examined the said instrument, and finding no razures or interlineations therein (except diose noted) do allow the same to be records. The within Indentore of Release, signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of and his wife, and his wife, to conveyance for S8,900 acres land.— 16th June 1795. Recorded in the Secretary's office of the State of New York, in hoi^ of deeds endorsed ^^ p«^ 359, &c. this I6th day of May, 17916. ————— D. Secretary. m \ ' ' i-'^^ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. V i APPENDIX No. 7. Population of Lower Canada ; tkken from a printed Copy of the Census published in 1887. f Counties. 1 i -c 1 inaians, or Inbabiianuof 1 Indian Lands jor Village!!. ll ■ ^ OBSERVATIONS. 1 Of the places mentioned in the census referred to, which are in |. Qaaf6, 4P19. 1185 381 6425 I the seigpaories and which are in the townships of Oasp6 is often not stated ; but the population, it is supposed, may De estimated as approximatinif .- the numbers ifiven for the townships and seignories res> pectively. This county is be- lieved to be chiefly peopled by . emigrants from the British Isles and their descendants, and by its geoptiphical position adapted to form part of New Brunswdck. ?. Comwallis, 20012 21002 2 1 None of the townships in this County are mentioned in the census. 3. Devon, 11934 11934 3 ditto. ^ 4. Hertford, 14044 14044 2 . ditto. 5. Dorchester, 249 19458 19707 ? Several of the' townships in this county are not named in tlie census. ^ Buckiogharafhire, 6450 27032 49 33522 2 The fpreater part of the town- ships in this county are not named in the census. 7. ^chelieu. 9M4 26712 36256 9 Some townships in this county, knowu to be inbaj^itedi ^re not named in the oeps.us. ^. Bedford, 10782 12672 1 \ 23654 1 St. Annaod (aj^ough one of feudal grants) having been set- tled more than 30 vears ago by old loyalists, and having been sold in farms exempt from sei- g orial rights (an exemption wtiich, however, could not be ri^ndered legal before the passing the Canada Tenures Act,^ ana having united in the petitions ' of the townships to the Im- a4iAl«J^<^^^'^ ^ . perial Parliament, as consider- ing themselves raUier to belong to those than the seignorial por< "A' I!' * li ' i I'S J V ■ I SA4 APPEirtHJl TO RtPORT FHOM SBLSCT COMMITTEE ;M : ' i . 'I 6N- xir «- "I I #&), Hi Counties. 8. Bedford, (corUinued.) ., ■•*.■,• 9. Sarref, JO. Kent, A\. HuatingdoQ, 1^. City and Couuty of Montreal, ■-■ , 1 , W ''■'■• ■» 13. York. 14. Effingliam, 15. Leinstin', 16. Warwick, 17. Tovm of Three Rivers and County of St. Maurice, ;;'T>wJ' ••.(»irn< ^ '■ !8. Hanipslifre. 19. City and County of Quebec, 20. Northumberland, 21. OrleaM, t 1 % 5745 2876 484 11 I 11573 10890 31433 25976 11109 26913 14921 19273 15924 2906 18160 13212 22021 6602 11210 402S 2408 162 o I 11573 10890 39586 .•^7085 30096 14921 197$7 15935 r 21066 1S312 26623 11210 4028 '4 H 1 379872J 29 9 1 J4t3373 2 S 2 OBSERVATIONS. tions of the province, ita popu- lation is here added to that uf the townships, as is also that of St. Thomas and St. George, or Caldwell's Manor. There are, besides, many English in tlic sei- gnories. There are no townships in this county. - - ditto. Among the inhabitants ^ of tlie seignories in this county many thousands are of British birth or descent. There no townships in tliis county. The census referred to does not distinguish between the English and French inhabi- tants; but it is estimated that the English inhabitants in the city and county are between 10,000 and 15,000. The greater part of the town- ships in this county are not na- med in the census. There are several thousands of British ori- gin in the seignories. None df the townships ap- pear named Jn the census of this county. But one of the townships is named in the census of this county. The seignories contain nutticers of English inhabitants. ditto. None of the townships are mentioned in tlie census. The seignories and ton n contain con- siderable numbers of English. Tlie map does not represent any townsnips as being yet laid out in this county. The names of the townships in this county are not given in the census. There are many thousands of British origin in the city and county. No names of townships are given. This county consistfi of poly one ^mall seignory. SO townships in this ON THE ClVrL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. SM uiiii iiifiiriy i>v,Knni iiiiiauiutiuN m iiniiNn origin, riowover, aeau «eiffnoricfl as their proportion of inhabitants of Britiali oiifi^in, th tion of Lower Canada will stand thus : French population, breeds, &c. inhabiting Indian landH, 2,991 ; Enfjlisn, 86,110; ^' The Seiffttoriett, which inriudc the citiex and moHt of the village^*, aro (wti mated to oon- tain nearly dOiUOO inhabitantH of BritiNh origin. However, deducting only 45,000 from the the Htatenient of the popnU< 334-,272 ; Indiana, half> Totol, 423,373. The population of the counties of Orleans, Northumberland, Hampshire, Devon, Que- bec, Sun-ey and Kent, takin*s principal Secretary of State for the Colonies, communicated to tliis House on the i'2th instant by His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor, in answer to tlie Address to His Ma- jesty of this House at its last session, respecting the clergy reserves, is unsatisfactory to this Assembly, inasmuch as it is silent on a material part sf the respectful representation of this House contained in the said Address. 5. — Resolved, That the construction given to the Imperial Act, which .ippropriatet the clergy reserves to individuals connected with the Churcn of England, and tne determina- tion of tiie clergy of tliat church to withhold from all other denominations of Protestants residing within the province, the enjoyment of any part' of the benclits arising, or which may arise from the lands so set apart, call for the immediate attention of the Provincial Legislature to a subject of sugh vitaljnterest to the public in general, and that such claim by the Protestant e|)isco]>al church is contrary to the spirit and meaning of the 31 Geo. 3, and most injurious to the interests and wisnesof the province. Yeas 28.— Nays 3.— Majority 25. '?, i'lk,',!.' .. 6th. — Resolved, That a comparatively small proportion of the inhabitants of Upper Canada are members of the Church of England, and therefore ought not injustice to de- sire the sole enjoyment, by their elegy, of all the advantages which these lands present, to the exclusion of their fellow subjects, although equally loyal and firm in their attachment to His Majesty's Government and the Constitution. 7. — Resolved, That in a thinly inhabited country, such as Upper Canada, where the means of moral instruction to the poor are not easily obtained, it is the bounden duty of the Parliament to afford every assistance within its power towards the support of educa- tion. 8. — Resolved, .That the present .firovision for the support .'>f district and common schools is 4uite inadequate to the wants ol the people, and ought by ('very reasonable exertions to be increased, so as to place within the reach of the poorest inhabitaut the advantages of a decent education, * . , 9.— thu Commons f * i - Iliiiidenf As- •.1 miiibly of Up« '! • per Canadu, 1SJ6 il t — ._ — — » ;■] l\ S50 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE No. 8. Tlc^oltitiontof ihf Coinmoni Iloii>t' of Ak- 9. — Resolved. That it ii the opinion of a great proportion of the people of tiuH pro vince tlint the cler|;y landa, in place of buiii^ enjoyed by the clerfi^y ot an inr<>nNi*l<*rikbl« nurt cf tliepopniatiun, oufifht to be diNpoHed of, und the prooeedH of their Hule upplit'd t^ uuu'eiiMe tile pru\ initial allowance for the Hupport of diittrict and coininou hoIiouIm, mid tlm kunib y of Up- endowment of a provincial iteminar^ for learning, in aid of erecting pUcev of public wur- |ivr Cuiiadrf, ship for all dononiinationH of chriHtians. . . J826. . . , * . . Yea»31.— Nays 2.— Miyority29. Resolved, That the number of the Protestant EpiHcopnl Church in the provinccH bcms n very amuU pruiiortiou to the number of other ChriHtiauH, notwithHtanding the pccuniitry and long and exciutiively received from the benevolent society in England by the membcn of timt cUurcli, and their pretensions to a monopoly of the clergy reserves. . . Yeas.— 30 Nays 3.— Majority 27. ,,', ' I I ■ .^ - APPENDIX, No. 9. No. 9. TiiK Fourth Article of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, concluded between the King's of I'Wih Article (ireat Britain and France, on the 10th February in the year 1763; containing th'e Iwi-nGrm" Cession of Canada to the Cr^wn of Great Britain. , .^ Hriiain iird Friuiiu on thp Ills most Christian Majesty renounces all pretensions ^Mlich he has heretofore formed, linh Ki'h. i763.or might form, to Nova l^otia or Acadia, in all its parts, and guarantees the whole of it, V — — ^ ' and all its dependencies, to the King of Great Britain. Moreover His most Christian Majesty <;ede8 and guarantees to His said Britannic Ma- jesty, in full right, Canada, with all its dependencies, as well as the Island of Cape Breton, and all the otl>er islands and coasts in the Gulf and River of St. Lawrence,and in general every thing that depends on thk> said countries, lands, islands' and coasts, ^Mth the sovc- reignty,proi>erty,posHession,and.dlright8,acquii'ed by treaty or otherwise, which the most Christian King and tiie Crown of Prance I ave had till now over the said countries, islands, lands, places, coasts and their inhabitants ; so that the most Christian King cedes and tnnkes over the whole to the said King and to the Crown of Great Britain, and that in the most ample manner and form, without restriction, and without any liberty to depart from the said guaranty under any pretence, or to disturb Great Britain in the possessions above mentioned. His Britannic Majesty on his side agrees to grant the libertv of the Catholic religion to the inhabitants of Canada ; he will consequently give the most effectual orders that His neM' Roman Catholic subjects may profess the worship of their religion according to the rites of ' the Romish Church, as far as the laws of Great Britain permit. His Britannic Majesty furtliev agrees, that the French inhabitants or others who had been the subjects ot the most Christian Majesty in Canada, may retire with all safety and freedom whenever they shall think proper, and may sell their estates, provided it be to subjects of his Britannic Majesty, and bring away their effects as well as their per- sons, without being restrained in their emigration under any pretence whatsoever, except that of debts or of criminal prosecutions: the term limited for that emigration shall be fixed to the space of eighteen months, to be computed from the day of the exchange of the rati- tication of the present treaty. Appendix h\ . ON THE CIVIL UOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 147 APPENDIX, No. 10. PKOii.AMATiuN of tho Kin;;r of Grcnt Britain, datod 7th October 1763. By the King. — A Prockiination. ' GEORGE R. No. 10. Whereas Wo Jmvo taken into onr Uoyal conHidcrntion the extensive and valtiahio «'- ,!f"Jhe Tina" of Juisitionn in America 8C(Hirt>d to our CruM-n by the lute detinitivo treaty of pcui-e, conehi- circni Hniain ^ ed at Paris the 10th day of February last ; and bcinf^ desirouH that all our lovin|f suh- 'iiitpd 7ih Ucir. jectH, aH well of our kinj^domn ait of our cohtnien iu America, may avail thenmelveti with all 1789. convenient Rpeed of the ((reat benefits and advantaf^cs which must accrue therefrom to^~~— v-~— ' theircommerce, manufactures and navigation ; we have thou^fht fit, with t'lc advice of our privy council, to issue this our Royal Proclamation, hereby to publish and «locluro to all our loving subjects, that we have, witii the advice of our said privy council, granted our letters patent under our {Ufreat seal of (}reat Britain, to erect within the countries and is- lands ceded and confirmed to us by the said treaty, four distinct and r witl' the advice and consent of the na-nibers of our council, summon and call ■ ,;;oneral assemblies m itliin tbesaid jrovcrnnients respectively, in such manner and form as is used and directed in those colonies and provinces in America, which are under our immediate government ; and we have also given power to the said governors, with the consent of our said councils and the representatives of the people, so to be summoned as aforesaid, to make, constitute .;;.d ordain laws, statutes and ordinances for the public peace, welfare and good govenunent of our said colonies, and of the people and inhabit- ants thereof, as near as may be agreable to the laws of England, and under such regula- tions and restrictions as are used in other colonies; and in the mean time, and until such assemblies can be called as aforesaid, all persons inhabiting in or resorting to our said colonies may confide in our royal protection for the enjoyment of the benefit of our laws of our realm of England; for which purpose we have given power under our Great Seal to the governors of our said colonies respectively, to erect and con.stitute, with the advice of our said council respectively, courts of judicature and public justice within our said colonies, for the hearing and lleterminiug of causes, as well ci'imiual as civil, a(^cording to law and equity, and as near as may be agreable to the laws of England, with liberty to all persons who tnay think themsehcs aggrieved by the sentence of such courts, in all civil causes, to appeal, under the usujil limitations and restrictions, to us iu out privy council. We nave also thought fit, with the advice of our privy council as aforesaid, to give unto the governors and councils of our said three new ritories reserved, as aforesaid, for the use of the said Indians, to seia^e and apprehend all persons whatever who,standing charged with treason, misprision of treason, murder, or other felonies or misdemeanors, shul fly n-om justice, and take refuge in t\^ said territory, and to f I '■I u\ ^.r §r- 360 APPENDIX to itEPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE No. lb. ,^{^°*^'j*™"'''"lto8end them under a proper guard to the colony where the crime was committed of Greaf Brifain ^^'^h they shall stand accused, in order to take their trial for the same. dated 7lb Octo- ber 1783. Given at our Court of St. James's, the 7th day of October 1763, in the third year »- -v ' -t of eiir Reign. — God save the King. :••!•; J APPENDIX No. 11. . PROCLAMATION of Sir Alured Clarke, Lieutenant Governor of Canada, dated 7th May 1792. Alured ClarkJB : , No. n. Proclamation of GEORGE the Third, by the grace of God of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Kin?, dit^ 7th Mny defender of the Faith, &c. : Te all our loving subjects v\ hom these presents may coii- 1792. cern : Whereas in pursuance of an Act of Parliament lately made and provided, passed in «. y -»the thirty-first year of our reira, and of authority by us given for that purpose, our late province of Quebec is become divided into the two provinces of Upper-Canada Jind Low or Canada, and our Lieutenant-governor of the said province of Lower-Canada, by power from us derived, is authorized, in the absence of our right trusty and Avell-beloved (luy Lord Dorchester, Captain-general and Governor in Chief of oiir said province of Lower- Canada, to divide the said province of Lower-Canada into districts, counties, circles, or towns and townships, for the purpose of effectuating the intent of the said act of Parlia- ment, and to declare and appoint the number of representatives to be chosen by each to serve in the Assembly of the said province ; Know ye, therefore, that our trusty and well beloved Alured Clarke, our Lieutenant-governor of our said province of Lower-Canada, in the absence of our said Governor in Chief, hath and by this our proclamation doth divide the said province of Lower-Canada into counties, cities and towns, and declare and appoint the number of the representatives of them, and each of them, to be as liereinafter limited, named, declared and appointed ; that is to say, that the first of the said counties be all that part of the said province on the southerly side of the river of Saint Lawrence, now called the district of Gaspe, as described in our royal proclamation under the great seal of our late province of Quebec, bearing date the twenty-fourth day of July in the twenty-eightti vear of our reign ; and that the second of the said counties, to be csuled Cornwalhs, shall coin- prehend sdl that part of oiu* said province on the same side of the river St. Lawrence, between the said county of Gaspe and a line running south-east from the westerly an<,^le of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of Mr. Lauchlan Smith, or St. Ann's, toget'ier with the islands of St. Barnaby and Bic, and all other islands in the said river necjest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same ; and that the third of the said counties, to be called Devon, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the xame side of the said river of St.Lawrcnce, between the westerly side of the ' said ('ounty of C*»mwallis and a line parallel thereto running from the westerly angle of a tract of land couHkonly called the seigniory of the river Du Sud, together with all the islands in the river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same ; and that the fourth of the said counties, to be called Hertford, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the southerly side of the said river St. Lawrence, between the westerly side of the said county of Devon, and a line parallel thereto running from the north-easterly angle of a tract of^land commonly called tlie seign- iory of Lauzon, or the seigniory Point Levy, together with all the islands in the said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or In purt fronting the same ; and that the fifth of the said counties, to be called Dorcheste*. shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the southerly side of the said river Saint Lawrence, between the tv.: l>-\ ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 361 tile westerly side of the said county of Hertford and a line parallel thereto running' from Nn. 1 1 . the westerly angle of the aioresaid tract of land cailed the seigtiio'*y of Iiau/.oii, or the Proclimation of sei^iory of Point Levy, together with all iaknds ia the said riTCT Saint Lawrence uear-^ifAJurClrtrke, est to the said county, and in tlie wh«>»le or in part fronting the same ; and that the sixth"*'" ^ ,,, , ' of the said counties, to be call»*d Buckinghamsliirc, shai) coinpre: end all that part of our ,_ j said province on the southerly side of the said nyrr St. Lawrence, between the westerly side of the said county of Dorchester aikd a line parallel thereto running from the norflf easterly angle of a tract of land coramonJhr called tlie seigniory of Sorel, together with all the islands in the said river St. Lawrence (or lake St. Peter) nearest to the said county, and in the wliole or in part fronting the same ; and that the seventh of the said counties, to be calleil Richelieu, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the soutiierly side of the said river St. Lanrenco, between the westerly side of the said county of Buck- inghamshire and the following lines, that is to say, a line running south-east from the westerly angle of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of St. Ours, until the same shall intersect the easterly bank of the river Sorel, otherwise called the river Richelieu or Chambly, thence up the easterly bank of the said river to the north-easterly bounds of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of Rouville, and thence by a line running south east to the limits of our said province, together with all the islands in the river St. Law- rence (or lake St. Peter) nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the sjime, and together also with all the islands in the river Sorel, Kichelieu or Chambh , nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting tlie same, including in the' said county the tract of land comprehended within the limits of the town or borough of William Hen''y hereinafter described ; and that the eighth of the said counties, to be called Bedford, sliall comprehend all that part of our said province on the easterly side of the river Sorel, otherwise called the Richelieu or Chambly, between the said river and the westerly side of the aforesaid county of Richelieu, togeilier with all the islands in the said river Sorel, otherwise called Riciieli«u or Chambly, nearest to the said county, and in the whole or f ^ fronting the same; and that the ninth of tlie said counties, to be called Surrey, sha' ',j,rehendall that part of our said province on the soutiierly side of the river St. Lawrence, bet^^een that river audthe river Sorel, l>ichelieu or Chambly, and between the afore-mentioned soutli-east line running from the westerly angle of the tra(;t of land called ttie seigniory of St. Ours, and aline parallel tliereto running from the m esterly angle of a tract of laud commonly called the seigniory of Varennes, together with all the islands, in the said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in psirt fronting the same, and together also with all the islands in the river Sorel, Richelieu or Cliamblv, nearest to th6 said county, and in the whole or iii part opposite thereto on that side ; and that the tenth of the said counties, to be called Kent, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the southerly side of the river St. Lawrence, betweeu that river and the river Sorel, Richelieu or Chambly, and between the westerly side of the said county of Surrey and a line parallel thereto running from the westerly angle of a tract of land com- monly called the barony of Longueuil, together with all the islands in tlie said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same, and together also with all the islands in the said river Sorel, Richelieu or ('hambly, nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part opposite thereto on that side ; and that the eleventh of the said counties to oe called Huntingdon, shall comprehend all the rest of our said province of Lower Canada on the southerly side of the said river St. La"reuce, toge- ther with all the islands in the said river St. Lawrence and in the river Sorel, otherw ise called the Richelieu or Chambly, nearest lo the said (lounty ; and that the twelfth of the said counties, to be called York, shall comprehend all that part of our said province of Lower-Canada on the northerly side of the said river St. Lav«rence, between the uppermost limits thereof and a line running west north-wost from the south-easterlv angle of a tract of laud commonly called the seigniory of Dumont, together with the island of Perot and Bizarre, and all the other islands in the rivers St, Lawrence and Ot- tawa nearest to the said countv, and in the whole or in part fronting the same, excnjjtim'' ti.e islands of Jesus and Montreal ; and that the thirteenth of the said counties, to be called Montreal, shall comprehend the island of Montreal, including likev\ise such part thereof as shall be comprehended within the limits of the city and tonu of Montroal licroinafter descri!»('d ^ Sflv APPENDIX TO REPORT FR07i SELECT COMMITTEE No. II, described ; and that the fourteenth of the said counties, to be called Effingham, shall com* Proclnmation of prehend all that part of our said province on the northerly side of the rivers St. Lawrence d'l'd'"? h 'm**'*"^ Ottawa, bet« feen the easterly side of the i foresaid county of York and a line parallel " ' 1792 ^^ thereto running from the south-easterly angle oi.-\ tract of land commonly called the seignio- t ' _,ry of Terrebonne, together w ith the island of Jesus, an rf all the other islands in the said rivers St. Lawrence and Ottawa, in the whole or in pan fronting the said county, except the aforesaid island of Montreal ; and that the lifteenth cf the said counties, to be called Lein- ster, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the northerly side of the said rivers St. Lawrence and Ottawa, between the easterly side of the said county of Effinir. ham and a line running north-west from the south-easterly angle of a tract of land com- monly called the seigniory of St. Sulpice, to^'etber with all the islands in the said rivers St. Lawrence and Ottawa nearest to the said coonty, and in m hole or in part fronting the same ; and that the sixteenth of the said counties, to be called Warwick, snail compre- hend all that part of our said province on the northerly s'de the river St. Lawrence, be- tween the easterly side of the said county of Lciuster aiicl n litie parallel thereto running from the south-easterly angle of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of Ber- thier, together with all the islands in the said river St. Lawrtnce nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same ; and that t'le seventeenth of the said counties, to be 'tailed St. Maurice, shall comprehend all that part of our said provinc«> on the northerly side of the river St. Lawrence, between the easterly side of the said county of Warwick and a line parallel thereto running- from the soutli-easterly angle of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of Batiscan, together \vith all the islands in tlie said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same, including within the same county the tract of land comprehended within the hmits of the town and borough of Tliree-Rivers hereinafter described ; and that the eighteenth of the said counties, to be called Hampshire, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the northerly side of the river St. La^^^ence, between the easterly side of the said county of St. Maurice and a line parallel thereto running from the south-westerly angle of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of St. (iabriel, together with all the islands in the said river St. Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same ; and that the nineteenth of ttie said counties, to be called Quebec, shall comprehend all that part of our said province on the northerly side of the river St. Lawrence, between the easterly side of the said county of Hampshire and a line running nortti north-west from the south-westerly angle of a tract of land commonly called the seigniory of Beaupre, near the mouth of the river Montmorency, together v. ith all the islands in the said river Saint Lawrence nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same (except the island of Orleans) including within the said county the tract of land comprehended within the limits of the city and town of Quebec herein- after described ; and that the twentieth of the said counties, to be called Northumberland, shall comprehend all the rest of our said province on the northerly side of the river St. Lav^rence and on the easterly side of the said county of Quebec, together with the island of Coudrc and all the other islands in the said river St. Lawrence, nearest to the said county, and in the whole or in part fronting the same, except tiie island of Orleans ; and that the twenty-first of the said counties, to be called Orleans, shall comprehend the said island of Orleans : And that the first of the said cities, to be called (as heretofore) the city and tow n of Quebec, shall comprehend all that tract qr promontory of land (being partand parcel of the aforesaid county of Quebec) between the rivers' of St. Lawrence and St. Charles, bounded in the rear by a right line ninning along tlie easterly front of the con- vent called the General Hospital, and continued from river to river ; and that the said city and town of Quebec be, and the same is l)ereby declared to be divided into two parts, to be called respectively the Lower Town and the Upper Town, and that the said Lower Town shall comprelieud all that part of the said tract or promontory of land situate below the hill called Cape Diamond, and the fortifications and high ground beyond them, includ- ing both sides of the road passing the intendant's Palace and St. Roc, until the said road shall meet the aforementioned rear line continued from the easterly front of the General Hospital aforesaid, together nith the ground up Mountain Street, on the easterly side thereof as high as tl e ground of the Bishop's Palace, not including the same, and on the westerly side of Mountain Street as high as the alley leading to the old Chateau of St, Lewis^ :'! ON THE ClTIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 90.1 No. 11 Lewis, fr om 1 lie head of the steps opposite to the jEfate of the said Bishop's Palace ; and tliat the said Upper Town shall comprehend all tlie rest of the said tract or promontory ; of tlie <'^"f!"'"ci*"l*' second of the said cities to be called (as heretofore) the city and town of Montreal, /jg[gj, "^jj, "j*' shall comprehend all that tract or parcel of hind (being' part and parcel of tlie jygo. '' aforesaid county of Montreal) bounded in front by tlie river Saint Lawrence, nudv_ ^.^ in the rear by a line parallel to the general course of the fortification walls on the rear of the said town, at the distance of 100 chains fi'om the gate commonly called the St. Lawrence Gate, and bounded on the easterly or lowermost side by a line runninij- parallel to the general course of the fortification walls on the easterly or lowermost side of the said town , at the distance of 100 chains from the gate towards the Quebec Suburbs commonly called the Quebec Gate, and on the westerly or uppermost side b) a line run- ning parallel to the general course of the fortification walls on the easteily or uppermost side of the said town, at the distance of 100 chains from the gate towards the St. Anthony suburbs commonly called the RecoUet's Gate, and that the said city and town of Montreal be, and the same is hereby declared to be divided into tvio parts, to be called respectively the Easterly Ward and Westerly Ward, and that the said Easterly Ward shall comprehend oil the easterly or lowermost part of the said tract above described, bounded on the west- erly or uppermost side by a line running through the middle of the main street of the St. Lawrence suburbs and the continuation thereof, and through the middle of the street called theCongregation Street, Notre- Dame Street, and along the middle of the same west- erly to the middle of St. Joseph Street, and thence down the middle of St. Joseph Street to the river ; and that the said Westerly Ward shall comprehend all the rest ot the said tract or parcel of land within the limits above described : And that the first of the said towns or boroughs, to be called the tow n or borough of Three-R'vers, shall comprehend all that tract or parcel of land (being part and parcel of the afore> ud county of St. Mau- rice) bouuded in the front by the river St. Lawrence, and in the rear by a line parallel to the general course of the said front, at the distance of 160 chains from the westerly point of the moutli of the river of St. Maiuice, on the easterly side by the said river St. Mau- rice, and on tl»e westerly side by a line rectangular to the aforesaid rear line, running from a point therein at the distance of 160 chains from the westerly bank of the said river of St. Maurice, until it strikes the said river St. Lawrence ; and that the second and last of the said towns or boroughs, to be called the town or borough of William Henry, shall comprehend all that tract or parcel of land (being part and parcel of the aforesaid county of Richelieu) bounded in front by the river Sorel, otherwise called the riv« r Richelieu or Chambly, in the rear by a line parallel to the easterly side of the Royal-square of the said town, at the distance of 120 chains therefrom, on the northerly side by the river St.Lawrence and on the southerly side by a line parallel to the southerl\r side of the U oyal-squai'e of the said town, at the distance of 120 chains tlierefrom. And know ye also, that our said Lieu- tenant-governor hath also declared and appointed, and doth hereby declare and appoint, that the several counties of Comwallis, Devon, Hertford, Dorchester, Bu«kinghamshire, Richelieu, Surrey, Kent, Huntingdon, York, Montreal, Effingham, Leinster, Warwick, St. Maurice, Hampshire, Quebec and Northumbcfland aforementioned, shall and may be represented in 'he Assembly of the said province, by two members or representatives, to be duly chosen in and for each of the same counties respectively, and the counties of Gaspe, Bedford and Orleans, by only one member or representative for each of the said counties respectively ; and the cities or towiii, of Quebec and Montreal respectively by four members or representatives for each of the said cities or towns, to wit, t«o for each subdi- vision thereof respectively, and the town or borough of Three-Rivers by two members or representatives for the said town or borough, and the town or borough of William Henry by only one member or representative for the said town or borough ; of wliich our loviner to represent the said university irt Parliament, who, besides tlie qualification now by law required, shall not also be entitled to vote in the convocation of the said university. 3. And be it further enacted, by the autliority aforesaid, that it shall and may be law- ful for the Governor, Lieutenant Governor, or person administerine: the government of this province, to Issue writs of election for members to serve in the Commons House of Assembly for such counties and towns as aforesaid, and for the said university, in liae manner as is provided by the eighteenrli clause of an Ac; psMed in the thirty-first y«ir ofHis Majesty's Reign, intituled, " An Act to repeal certain parts »#" an Act passed in the fourteenth vear of His Majesty's Reiga, M feita ii nd , " An Act for makinjj more effec- tual provision for the government of the jrovino? !" . -^ , merabert . i ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. 365 he Prdvince of members now returned for any county or countieg under the authority of any law her»- Act to provide tofore in force in this province, or to make necessary the issuing of any new writ cf for increasing election doringf the continuance of any Parliament, by reason of the increase of inhabit-t|>e Reprfsonta- ttnts in anytoivn or connty since the then last precedinjj general election. « " r'n "Jl 7. And be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that when any county now j^"^*^" '*''*' formed or hereafter to be formed s!)all contain less than one thousand souls, the 8aid> county or counties shall be attached to the next adjoining county of the district in which • there shall be the smallest number of souls. ' 8. And be it further enacted, by the aothority aforesaid, th^t the number of soula re- siding in any town as aforesaid, shall be ascertained and distinguished, in the return of the town clerk of the to\vnship in which such town shall be situated, from the number of souls of such township. 9. And be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that no person qualified to vote in any town as aforesaid^ shall be allowed to vote in the county in which such town is situated upon the same freehold which may qualify him to vote tor a member to represent the said town. ' 10. And be it further enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that the number of souls con- tained in any towh which may hereafter elect a member as aforesaid, shall not be con- '^ sidered as a part of the number of souls required to give the county in which such town shall be situated, two members. . , . ., , • i J! lii •* ; »ju/; llj • y), • 1 . APPENDIX, No. 13. University ok King's College at York, in Upper Canada. THE CHARTER, Sfc. 'i:j>.i ^.'i 'iJ ■<«.•: G»-oRGE The Fourth, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Kin"<, Defender of the Faith, and so forth ; To all to whom these pre- sents come, greeting: — No. 13. Charter of the King's College Whereas the establishment of a college within our province of Upper Canada in North"' ^S,"^ '" '-'P- America, for the education of youth in the principles of the Christian Religion, and for f ^^ ' their instruction in the various branches of science and literature which are taught in our universities in this Kingdom, Avould greatly conduce to the welfare of our said province ; and whereas humble application hath been made to us byraanyof our loving subjects in our said province tliat we would l)e pleased to grant our royal charter for tl>e more perfect establishment of a college therein, and for incorporating the members thereof tor the purposes aforesaid : Now know ye, that we have taken the premises into our royal con- sideration, and duly weighing the great utility and importance of such an institution, have of our special grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, ordained and granted, and do by these presents, for us, our heirs and successors, ordain and grant, that there shall be established at or near our town of York, in our said province of Upper Canada, from this time, one college, with the style and privileges of an university as hereinafter directed, for the education and instruction of youth and students in arts and faculties, to continue for ever to be called ** King's College." And we do hereby declare and grant that our trusty and well beloved the Right Re- verend Father in God, Charles James, bishop of the diocese of Quebec, or the bishop for the time being of the diocese in which the said town of York may be situate, on any future division or alteration of the said present diocese of Quebec, shall for us and on our behalf be visitor of the said college ; and that our trusty and well beloved ISir Pere- grine Mjiitland, our Lieutenant Governor of our said province, or the Governor, Lieu- tenant aflc APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE s:i V I C^rte/ofih **"■"* Governor or other person administering the goTemment of our said province for King's CollfKe*"*" *''"*' l*®"'*?* shall be the Chancellor of our said college. ■t York in Up- Aud we do horeb}' declare, ordain and grant, tlut there shall at all times be one pro- per Canada. sident of our said college, who shall be a clergjmau in holy orders of the united cliuruh of '-'England and Ircliind ; and that there shall be such and tn many professors in different arts and faoulti4;s within our said college, as fi'om time to time siiall be deemed neces^iary or expedient, and as shall b« appointed by us or by the chanoeller of our said college iu our behalf, and during our pleasure. And we do hereby grant and ordain that the Reverend John Strachan, Doctor in Di- vinity, Archdeacon of Yorlc, in our said province of Upper Canada, shall be the first president of our said college, and the Archdcacou of Yorh, in our said province, for the time being, shall by virtue of sucli his office, be at all times the president of the sold college. And we do hereby, for us and our heir's and successors, will, ordain and grant, that the said chancellor and president, and the said professors of our said college, and all persons M'ho shall be duly matriculated into and admitted as scholars of our said college, and their fiuccessors for ever, shall be one distinct and separate body politic and corporate iu deed and in name, by the name and «tyle of "the Chancellor, President and Scholars of King's College, at York in the Province of Upper Canada," and that by the same name they sliall have perpetual succession and a common seal, aud that they and their successors shall from time to time have full power to alter, renew or change such common seal at their will and pleasure, and as shall be found convenient f and that by the same name tbeythe-«aid chancellor, president and scholars, and their successors from time to time, and at all times hereafter, shall be able and capable to have, talce, receive, purchase, ac- quire, hold, possess, enjoy and maintain, to and for the use of the said college, any messuages, lands, tenements and hereditaments of v^ Lat kind, nature or quality soever,) situate and being witliin our said province of Upper Canada, so aa that the same do notcx-^ ceed in yearly value the sum of fifteen thousand pounds sterling above all charges, and moreover to take, purchase, acquire, have, hold, enjoy, receive, possess auil retain all or any goods, chatties, charitable or other contributioug, gifts or benefactions whatsoi ever. And we do hereby declare and grant that the said cliancellor, president and scholars, and their successors by the same name,shalland may be able and capable in law to sue and be sucd,^ implead and be impleaded, answer and be answered, in all or any court or courts of record within our United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and our said province of Upper Canada, and other our dominions, in all and singular actious, causes, picas, suits^ matters aud demands w hatsoever of what nature or kind soever, in as large, ample and beneficial a manner and form as any other body politic and corporate, or any other our liege subjects being persons able and capable in law, may or can sue, implead or answer, or be sued, iinpleaded or answered in any manner whatsoever. And we do hereby declare, ordain and grant, that there shall be within our said college or corporation, a council, to be called andknown by the name of "the College Council ;" and we do will and ordain that tlie said couucil shall consist of the chancellor and president for the time being, aud of seven of the professors in hHs and faculties of our said college, and that such seven professors shall be members of the established uni- ted church of England and Ireland, and sballjiprcviously to their admission into the said college council, severally sign and subscribe the thirty-nine articles of religion as declared aud set forth in the Book of Conunon Prayer; and in case at any time there should not be within our said college seven professors of arts and faculties being members of the established church aforesaid, then our will and pleasure is, and we do hereby grant and ordain, that the said college council shall be filled up to the requisite number of seven, exclusive of the chancellor and president for the time being, by such persons, being gra- duates of our said college, and being members of the established church aforesaid, as shall for that purpose be appointed by the chancellor for the time being of our said college, and which members of council shall in like manner subscribe the thirty-nine articles afore- said previously to their admission into the said college council. Ami whereas it is necessary to make provision for the completion and filling up of the Hiid council at the first institution of our said college, and previously to the appointment of TEE id province for 68 be one nrc- luited clmrcli of irs in different emed n«>ces8ary Haid colle-at Yor*k in Up^ point seven discreet ai'd proper persons resident within our said province of Upper Canada, per Canada. to constitute, jointly with hlni the said chancellor, and the presideat of our said college v.. .^._^-^ for the time being, the first or original council for our said college, whici) first or original members of the said council shall in like manner respectively subscribe the thirty-niu* articles aforesaid, previously to their admission into the said council. And we do further dsclare and gratit, that the members of the said college council holding wit'iin our said college the offices of chancellor, president or professor in any art or faculty, shall respectively hold their seats in the said council, so long as they and each of them shall retain such their ofBccs as aforesaid, and no longer: and that the inerabers of th« said council not holding offices in our said college shall from time to time vacate their seats in the said council when and so soon as there shall be an adequate number of professors in our said college, being members of the established church aforesaid, to fill up the said council to the requisite number before mentioned. And we do hereby authorize and empower the chancellor for the time being of our said college to decide in each case what particular number of the said council not holding any such office fis aforesaid, shall vacate his seat in the said council, upon the admission of any new member of council holding any such office. And \ye do hereby declare and grant, that the chancellor for the time bein^ of our said college shall preside at all meetings of the said college council which he may deem it pro- per or convenient to attend, and tliat in his absence the president of our said college shall preside at all such meetingii, and that in the absence of the president, the senior member pf the said council present at any such meeting shall preside tnereat, and that the seniority of the members of tne said council, other than the chancellor and president, shall be re- gulated according to the date of their respective appointments; provided alvays, that the members of the said council being professors in our said college shall in the said coun- ^■il take precedence over and be considered as seniors to the members thereof not bbing professors in oui* said college. And we do ordain and declare, that no meeting of the said council, shall be or beheld to be a lawful meetingthereof, unless five members at the least be present during the whole of every such meeting ; and that all such questions and resolutions proposed for tiie decision of the said college council shall be determined by the majority of the votes of the members of council present, including the vote of the presiding member, and that in the event of an equal division pf such votes, the member presiding at any such meeting shall give an additional oi casting vote. And we do further declare, that if a;ny member of the said council shall die or rcsira his seat in the said council, or shall be suspended or removed from the same, or shall by reason of any bodily or mental infirmity, or by reason of his absence from the said province, become iqcapablc for throe calendar months or upwards of attending the meetings of the said council, then and in every such case a fit and proper person shall be appointed by the said chancellor, to act as and be a member of the said council in the place and stead of the member so dying or resigning, or so suspended or removed, or incapacitated as aforesaid ; andsuch new member succeeding toauy member so suspended or incapacitated, shall vacate such his office on the removal of any such suspension, or at the termination of any such incapacity as aforesaid of his immediate predecessor in the said council. And we do further ordain and grant, that it shall and mav be competent to and for the chancellor for the time being of our said college, to suspend from his seat in the said coun- cil any member thereof for any just and reasonable cause to the said chancellor appearing ; provided that the grounds of every such suspension shall be entered and recorded at length by the said chancellor in the books of the said council, and signed by him : and every per- son so suspended shall thereupon cease to be a member of the said council unless and until he shall be restored to and re-established in such his station therein by any order to be made in the premises by us, or by the said visitor of our said college acting ou our behalf, and in pursuance of any special reference from us. And we do fnrther declare, that any member of the said council, who without sufficient cause, to be allowed by the said chancellor by an order entered for that purpose in the books i ', SG8 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE No. 13. booksof the said council, shall absent himself from all the meetingfs thereof which may be Chirtffrof the held within any six successive calendar months, shall thereupon vacate such his seat in the Vk f''''[^««'8aid council, per Canada ''^"'* **"* **** "*'' **'®"® presents, fof U8, OUT heirs and successors, will ordain and grant, ^ ^ _ ■ ' . that the said council of our said college shall have power and authority to frame and make statutes, rules and ordinances touching and concerning the good government of our sai4 college, the performance of divine service therein, the studies, lectures, exercises and de- grees in arts and faculties, and all matters regarding the same, the residence and duties of the president of our said coUeg'e, thii; number, residence and duties of the professors thereof , the management of the revenues and property of our said college, the salaries, stipends, provisiou and emoluments of and for the president, professors, scholars, officers and sei'vants thereof, the number and duties of such officers and servants, and also touch- ing and concerning any other matter or things which to them shall seem good, fit and use- ful for the well-bein^ and advancement of our said college, and agreeable to this our char- ter ; and also from time to time, by any new statutes, rules or ordinances,' to reVqke, renew, augment or alter all, every or ainy of the said statutes, rule's and ordinances as to them shall seem meet and expedient ; provided always, that the iiaid statutes, rules, and ordinances, or any of them, shall not be repugnant to the laws and statutes of the Uni- ted Kinirdom of Great Britain and Ireland, or of our said province of Upper Canada, or to this our charter ; providedalso, that the said statutes, rules and ordinances, shall be subject to the approbation of the.said visitor of our said poUegefor the time beibg, and shall be forth- with transmitted to the si^id visitor for that purpose ; and that in case the said visitor shall for us and on our behalf, in writing, signify his disapprobation therebf within two years of the time of their being so made and framed, the same, or suchpart thereof as shall be so dis- approved of by the said visitor, shall from the time ofsuch disapprobation being made known to tlie said chancellor of our said college, be utterly void and of no effect, but otherwise shall be and remain in full force and virtue. ' ' Provided nevertheless, and we do hereby expressly save and reserve to us, our heirs and successors, the power of reviewing, confirming or reversing, by any order or orders to be by us or them made in our or their privy council, all or any of the decisions, sentenceef or orders so to be made as aforesaid by the said visitor for us and on our behalf, in reference to the said statutes, rules and ordinances, or any of them. And we do further ordain and declare, that no statute, rule or ordinance shall be framed or made by the said college council touching the matters aforesaid, or any t>f them, except- ing unly such as shall be prep^t'ed for the consideration of the said council by the chan- cellor for the time being of^our said college. And we do require and enjoin the said chancellor thereof to consult with the president of our said college, and the next senior member of the said college council, respecting all statutes, rules and oii'dinances to be proposed by him to the said council for their conside- ration. And we do hereby for us our heirs and successors charge and command that the statutes, rules and ordinances aforesaid, subject to the said provisions, shall be stirictly and invio- lably observed, kept and performed from time to time in full vigour and effect, under the' penalties to be thereby or therein imposed ox contained. And we do further will ordain and grant, that the said college shall be deemed and taken to be an university, and shall have and enjoy all suchand the luce privileges as are enjoyed by our universities of our Unitedi Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as far as the same are capable of being had or enjoyed, by virtue of these our letters patent ; and that the studentd in the said college shall have liberty and faculty of taking the degrees of bachelor, master and doctor, in the several arts And faculties at the apipbinted times, and shall have liberty within themselves of performing all scholastic exercises for the confer- ring such degrees in such manner as shall be directed by the statutes, rules and ordinances of the said college. And we do fiu-ther will, ordain and appoint, that no religious t^st or qualification shall be required of or appointed for any persons admitted or matriculated as scholars within our said college, or or persons admitted to any degree in any art or faculty therein, save only ^hat all persons admitted within our said college to any degree in divinity, shall make such f which may be ill Mb seat in th^ dain and grant, frame and make leut of our 8ai4 ixercises and de- )nce and duties f the professors ^e, the salaries, ich'olars, officers , and also touch- ood, fit and use- to tt>is our char- o revoke, renew, qrdinancies as itutes, rules, and itcs of the Uni- !r Canada, or to I. shall be subject nd shall be forth- said visitor shall ;hin two years of s shall be so dis- iincf made known ;t, but otherwise us, our heirs rder or orders to sions, sentenced lalf, in referencfll shall be framed )fthem, except - icil by the chan- the president of , respecting all or their conside- :hat the statutes, ictly and invio- »ffect, under the' emed and taken 1 as are enjoyed' as far as the tent ; and that the degrees of nted times, and for the confer- and ordinances alification shall •lars within our rein, save only by, shall make such ON TFIL CIVIL GOVKUNMLNT OI' CANADA. 'Jii'J No. J.I. su'jhand thrs.mu' dccliratioiis and NiihsrTiption.s, and tako such uud the same oaths, nsuro Cliarcer of ih<« ri'tjuirtHl ((f j)i'rsu:isiid('i;nM> of master of arts, ortoaiiv'' ' ^"" "''''' d>';;ree in (liviiiity> lau' or inedieiiie, aiidu'lio tVoiu tho time t»t'siieli their udmissiuii to mu\\ "^ decree, shall pay the aamial sum oS" twenty .sliiiliiiirs sterliii;^- money, for and towards tlio support audmaiiiteiiaiiee oi'the sai(U'ollepnted to he members of the eouvoeution of the .-said university, and a.s such memhersof the said conv**- Ciitiou shall have, exerci-e and enjoy all such and the like privilei^es us are enjoyed hy th(» • members of tho convocation of our Universitv of Oxford, so far as the same are capable of bein;,' had and enjoyed by virtue of these our letters patent, and consistently with the pro- vi»ions tliereof. And we will, and by these presents for us our heirs and succossors, do f,>Ti'"t and declare, tliat these our letters patent, on the earoluu'nt or exempliliciition thereof, shall and may be ^food, iirm, valid, suUirieiit aiil etl'ectual in the law accordinif to the true intent and nuian- in;; of the s.nne, and s .all be laUen, construed, and adjud;,'ed in th(> most favourable and be- n.'(icial .sense, or to tlie be.st advantayfc of the said chancellor, president and s<'Iiolars of our said coUe^fe, iis well in our courts of record as elsewhere, and by all ami sin^jfular jn«l!»e.s justices, otFicers, minist«'rs, and ot'ier subjects whatsoever of us, our lieirs and successors, any misrecital, nonrccital, orais,sion,iniporfecfiou, d. 'feet, matter, cause or tiuu'y. * ^ ' And your Lordship is pleiised to request, that we would take the same into considera- tion ami report to your Lordship, for the information of the Prince Regent, our opinion, whether the IJovcrnor of tho province is cither required by the Act, or would be justified in applyin;;- the produce of tho reserved lands to the maintcn nee of any other than the clergy of the Church of England resident in the province ; and in the event of our being of opinion that the rainistci-s of Dissenting Protestant congregations have a concurrent claim with those of tlie Church of England, further desiring our opinion, whether, in ap- plying the reserved lands to the endowment of rectories and parsonages, as required by the 38th clause, it is encumbent upon His Majesty to retain a projwrtion of those lands for the maintenance of tlie Dissenting clergy, and as to the proportion in which, under such a construction, the provision is to bo assigned to the different classes of Dissenters established within the province. We are of ojiiuioii, that though the provisions made b\ 31st Goo. 30. 31, s. 36 and 42, for the support aud maintenance of a Protestant clergy, arc not confined solely to tho clergy of the Church of England, hut may be extended also to clergy of the Church of Scotland, if thur«ai'e any such settled iu Caaada,(as appears to hare been admitted in tlie de- bate U 2 I ': *! IMAGE EVALUATION TEST TARGET (MT-3) // ^,/ ^ ^/. ^ is .V ^A ^ ^ "^^ 4^ 1.0 I.I US "^ « — ■12.0 140 IJ£ — 11''^ 1'-^ < 6" ► J^ ^ ^ J^ '> K^^'' /: '/ ^ PhotDgra{iiic Sciences Corporation '^'^1^ ^ ^^.V^ 23 WTiT MAIN STRUT VVHSTKR.KI r. 14SM (716) •72-4503 ^^% ^^g 370 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELIiCT COMMITTEE No 14 bate upon thppassinfj of the Act,) y«t tint they «Ii) not rxt/'ml to Disisentin? ministprs, Opinion of the sinoe we think the terms Protestant clerjjy can apply only to Protestant clergy reco^izcd Lhw OOiceTn re- and established by law. laiive to Clergy The 37th section, which directs " that the rents and profits of t' e lands, Sic. shall be Ileserres. applicab'e solely to the maintenance and support of a Protestant rloriry" docs not specify by what authority the rents and proKts are to be so applied. Supposing the Oovernor to be duly authorized by the Act to make such application, we think that he will be justiiied in applvinij such rents and profits to the maintenance and support of Clerjjv of tlie Cinirch of Scotland, as well as those of the Church of Enars'onages nr ro<'tories according to " the estJiblishment of the (Mmrch of England ;" j)rovide.s nho, " that he may endow eveiy " such parsonage or rectory with so much of the lands allotted and appropriated in respect " to any land within such township or parish whic'» shiill have l>een orauted, as the Oov- " ernor, with the advice of the Executive Council, shall Judire to Ix' expedient." Under these terms he might endow any particiilar p.irsonage or rectory with the whole lands allotted and appropriated in that towii«j1i;p or parish. It would be inconsistent witli this discretionary pou cr that any proportion of such lands Rhould be absolutely retained for any other cleriry than those mentioned in that clause, and we think that it is not incumbent on His Majesty so to retiiin amy proportion of such lands. We have the lononrto be, my Lord, Your Lordship's most oi)edient iiumble servants, (signed) Christ. Robinson. ''■<'■/: - Jl. Gifford. J. S. Copley. Earl Bathurst, &c. &c. &c. No. 1.5. Opinion of the IjHw Officers «s to ihf Ueveinu" rnisfd under the Act of 1776 APPENDIX, No. 15. t Copy of the Opinion of ♦'■•^ Luw Officers of the Crown, as to t' e Right of the Crown to appropriate the llcvonnc raised under the Act of 1774, independent of the Legislative ..Vssembly. Serjeant's Inn, 13tii Nov. 1824. My Lord, ^ We have had t'le honour to receive your Lordship's Icttor, transmitting to us the ropy of a letter from Lieutenant-Generaltl>e Earl ofDalhousie, dated the 28tij April 1823, in- closing a report made by a Committee of the AsserabK of LoM-cr CJanada upon the pro- vince accounts,in vhich a question is raised as to the right of ing tne expenses of the administration of justice, and of the sup- port of the civil joverument in the province. This Act is not repealed by the 18 Geo. 8, ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENt OF CANADA. d7I c 12, the preamblp of «l>Irli dcrlarps that Parliament m,'i7/ not imjiose aiy duty, &c. for j^^j j^j the ])urpo80 of raisinsj a rovrospettive, and does not, as we think, aflW-t'" 'fi" Hevcnue the provisions of the Ad of II Geo 3, c. HS. It may he further observed, that if the I8th ''"'•"I |i«'«l«'rihe Geo. 3, had repealed t e 14 (teo. 3, the duties imposed bv the latter Act mnst immedia- t' * ' " ^"^' _ ^ tely tiavc ceased ; audtlie Act 18 Geo. 3, cannot att'ect the appropriation of the duties jm-^ posed by the 14 (teo. 3, since the 18 (ieo. 3, is ct)ned ; and as to the appropriation ((ft e rinties, or the control over them, nothing; is said upon the subject, cither in the -iO and 47th section, or in any other pfirt of the Act 31 Geo. 3, c. 3i. With respect to any infen'Hce to be drawn from what may have taken place in f'anadii wthin the last few \ ears as to these duties, it may be observed, tliat the duties havinjf been imposed by Parliament, at a time when it was competent to PjU'liaraent to impose them, they cannot be rej.ealed, or the appropriation of them in any degree viu'ied, except by tho came authority! We have the iionour, &c. (Sijfned) J. S. Copletj. Earl Bathurst, ' Chs. Wctherdl. &c. &c. &c. Colonial Department, Downing-strcct, 26th June 1829. APPENDIX, No. 1(J. >. - • Copy of a Petition fr«)ni Canada, prav in^ that the Presbyteriati Clernfy may particijtatc in tl^c Revenues set apart for tne Protestant Cler<>:y ; dated 20tb of December 18 Ji7, Quebec. .♦ * To the King's Most Excellent Majesty; May It please Yoiu' Majestv, . . No, YotjR Majesty's Presbyterian 8ul»je<'ts, whose names are hereunto subscribed, as well for Canada' themselves as for other your Majesty's subjects ])rofessin;f the same creed in your Ma-tition. jesty's provinces of U|)per and Lower Canada, most humbly bejj leave to approach your '— ^ Majesty's throne, sind to claim Your royal support and protection. A great niunber of Your Majesty's petitioners, descended from those North Britons who so eminently contributed under the inmioiiul Wolfe to the conquest of these colonies, have, with the inilux ofemiitrantsfrom iScotlaud and Ireland, formed large communities professing the hereditary faith. From a zealous and steadfast attachment to that faith your petitioners have hither- to (in the absence of any other support) endeavoured by voluntary contributions to obtain the inestimable ad vantogo of the services of ministers of their persuasion ; but the extent of the means derived from that soui'ce has been wholly inadequate to procure a number of pastors proportionate to the extent of the population, and is also insufficient to place those already settled among them in a stsiteof suitable independence. The Imperial Parliament feeling the necessity of extending its fostering care to religious establis nies, enacted by a statute passed in the thirty-first year of tliu reign of His late Majesty, of happy and glorious memory, that the one-seventh of the uugranted lands in these |)ruvi aces should be allotted for the support and maintenance of • Protestant clerj^- witbiu ttie same. The 16. 372 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM SELECT COMMlTTEIi No. 16. Canidn Petit jon The libcralifcy of tlio Impfrial Parliaincul did iiotf;top lu-rc, ns tlisit jiiovision could only « be prospective, and U8the wunts ot'iiit'aiit uikI nfrouiii": coloiiio.s ifjuircd, in n roliji^ioiis Cointoiview, a more oflicicnt suorour, (he l",j(i«(;(»p;iljau clcrafy ia t!ic>io provinces liave eeii allowed to participate in the Kinus votrd auinmlly hy }!i<» Iinpcii;!! PHrliunicnt, for the Society for tne ]*ropa<>;ation of tlie Ciospel in tlie Nortli Anicricaii provinces Your Majesty's petitioners bear leave to express to Your Majesty their re example of tlie laud «»f tlicir foivfatlicrs, that a people blessed withthe adviuitages of a suitable pr;tvisinn for religious instruction and edii'ifion, are thereby trained to order and virtue; aiul that in a country wlicrc ctlectnal provision is made for these purposes, nothing remain for the Ciovorinncnt but to enjoy the spectacle of its ]>rogressive improvement and increasing happiness, and to receive from a loyal, virtuous and happy people the spontaneous effusion of their gratitude and attaci ment. Your petitioners, most gracious Sovereign, indulge tlie hojie, that they may now obtain that support of which they stand in need, from the muniticence of the Imperial Parlia- ment, by being allowed to ])articipate (as they humbly conceive they are entitled) in the revenues to be derived from tlie lands reserved for the support of a Protestant clergy, according tothe ratio of tlieir popnhition, or in suc!i other jiroportion as may be deemed efjuitable and just ; and by granting to them such other pronsion as the Imperial Parlia- ment may in its wisdom deem expedient. Your Majesty's petitionei-s having reason to believe that the interests of the Protestant clergy of these provinces may lecome tlie subject of legislative enactment, during the ensuing session of i^irliament, they most humbly beseech ^ our Majesty to weigh and consider the interests of Your Maji'sty's petitioners in the premises, and to do therciu whatever to your Majesty may seem meet and jusf. And Your Majesty's petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray. (Jncbec, 20tli December 1827. I ( Here follows signatures of individuals to the amount of several hii...!ved8.) APPENDIX, No. 17. '* ^ . ciiiion ivoin Copy of the Petition from Inhabitants of Quebec, in favour of the Union of the I nhRbitaiitsPj'oviuces of Upper and Lower Canada. , Krt. 17 P, the of Quebec. ' Upper I To the King's Most Excellent Majesty. The Petition of the undersigned Seigniors, Magistrates, Members of the Clergy, Officers of Militia, Merchants, Landholders and others. Inhabitants of the City and District pf Quebec, Province of Lower Canada. Humblr ■ f ON THE CIVIL GOVERNMENT OF CANADA 373 coiiU! only [I rolig-ioiis ii(;«\s liavo aiiirnt, fur nt that the )ate ill any •iiaiioe of a any other ith year of icd in the r England, why their 1(1 wliy tlie ig'nation of ve that the r ditnising •xporience if a ppople t<' their own poworby adoptin^r a coiirs.' »t' Qmbcc. be traced the small encourajijenient which lias * * — ' 'lands of this Lower Province by 13iitish iiopnlafion, and consoqtirntlv that upwards of 80,000 souls, (a number ecjUJil to oiio-lonrt!i of the actual Fren*;!! popuiation) who since - the liwt American war have emigrated to this province from Great Britain and Ireland, scarcely one-twentieth part reni:;in within its limits, Yoni' Petitioners hav« observed witli <.'ratitud(! the disposition which your Majesty's (iiovernment lias evinced by tlie Act of the present year of Your Majesty, c. 119, to apply * a renjedy to the existinjf political e\ ils of these ])rovinces, but it is their humble opiinon tliattlu' provisions thereof are insntHcient ; that numerous circumstances concur to ren- d«u- vain any attem|)t permanently to n';jfulate to the satisfaction of both provinces the division of tlie revenuecollected at the port of Quebec, unless united under one Legislature ; and further the}' humbly bejj leave to express their feai-s, that some of the provisions of tliis Act, althoujrh dictated by the necessitj' of re^'ulatinjy the couflictinj,' claims of the two provinces, may afford a])retext to others for impiitin^j to the Imperial P.nliament a disposi- tion remote from the intentions and views of Your Majesty's (iovernment. Haviii!,' thus stated the evils under which they have suffered, your Petitioners feeling; the fullest confidence in the justice and wisdom of your Majesty's (Iovernment, and beinjj satisfied that the subject will receive the most serious and deliberate consideration, would have felt much hesiUition in presumiu"- to sU'jrsrest remedies ; but as the re-union of the two provinces has been proposed in the Imperial Parliament, they beuafife of any portion of the innabitants, in every class of whom bravery and loyalty have been evinced as fellow soldiers in defence of the provinces- May it therefore graciously jilease Your Majesty, that a bill for the union of the t" o provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, on the etjuitable terms jirayed for by your Peti- tioners, do pass into law, and the constitution established thereby be preserved iuvioluter to your Petitioners and their posterity. And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. " • • ik,"" Quebec, December, 1822. Colonial Departraent, Dowuinij street, Tth June 1828. Ci No, 18. ' •' '" - APPENDIX, No. 18. ' Pi'iiiionof.Mer- chrtiiis and o- To the Honorable the Commons of tlie United Kinp^dom of Great Britain and Ireland, in th.rs connected Parliament assembled. «'iih the Cana- iv'liiy 1828. The Petition of the undcreigucd Merchants and others connected with the Canadas. V V ' • Humbl/ ON TIIK CIVIL GUVIiRNMENT OF CAN.\J)A, 37: ho perpptu- luotice may f tli« vinaitit upwards of I who siiico nd Ireland, ir Majesty's 19, toapijly ble upiiiioa ;ur to r«?n- ovinces the ^e^rislaturc ; ro visions of s of the two nt a disposi- i fci'Munr the , and beiiijr tion, would lion of the to express eri as Khali ri<>;ht!i, and guaranteed ; ual remedy in opinioiit), lited Lejfis- 1 of {greater \titioners, ) the nnra- rovinces — ion iu do- abitauts, iu in defence of the t'«a ^'our Peti- d inviolate reland, in ["anadas. Humkl/ Uv IK'JS. Humbly Rhowofh . , ., , /, , ,. . IMiSofAhr. liiAT your Pctitinners have perceived with alanu and deep rojfrot the disseusiotisch»nis »iii.| o- ^v ich liave (orni.iiiy years prcvitiled in these provinces, and wiiich are now s(. nuicli niat-ilK" cont » cuii ter of public notoriety, that your Petitioners deem it iniuecessary to occupy tlie time of**'"'' 'he (iH"*- vour Honourable House in their detail, neitlu'r is it tiie purpose of jour Petitionei-s to'lT* ''"''''• *'''' blame tlie conduct of any man or party of menin the.>ie provin<'es. and tluis b- recriniiiu'.-^ tion al(> motive of callinir the attention of your Hoi'ourable House to what appears to them the only effectual remedy for tlicse unforttinate differences in time to come. That in the honest conviction of your Petitioners, the Act of the .Tlst (leo. .'}, c. 31, whereby the late province of Quebec "as divided into the provinces of I pjier and Lower Canada has been the fruitful source of all the evils with which the Canauas have been and are now aillic.te•e than that used by the individual aliove alluded to on tlut occasion : in urn;in;f the continuance of the province of (Quebec undivided he says, " There is one consideration of the utmost importance to the tranquilli- " ty of thepeojde inliabitiuir all pju'ts of that country, and which will alone, I hope, be *' Kurticientto enira;>"e this Honourable House to reject the plan of a new independent " «r()vernment. I be river St. Lawrence, they must be landed at or below Montreal, where they must be stored by the Men; an^.> of" Ouebec or M^mtreal, until carriajres or boats are provided to send them forward ; likewise that every article of produce which tlie people of these upper districts wish to export must be sent in boats to Montreal, or perhaps to Quebec, for the purpoi"\ ould be so\vjujr ih« seeds of dissension^ *■ and 27C, APPENDIX TO IfF.POllT FROM SELECT COMMITTEE I) \ i*1S l^•|lll.)no^ MiT- fli irits and <»• " ifi.rs ci.niHi'Ud w III iho Clin,!-** il '».. (liii'd 17ih« r.I.iv lJi28. ftrid quarrels which, however oiisy it may be to raiHe, it will be found exceedingly difli- Clllt to H|)|IOilHC." Ay;iua liH uilds: " Sir, I J'lW'o cou.-iidiTc'd tho suhjuct a thousand tini<>sHinoc I (irNthennl of t'lisi iiitPiidud division, but iiavt; not boea able to form any rnusonable idea of the motive wi.ith lias induced the projwsition of «u<;li a dan^'eroiis exjieriinent : if at any _^" future period experiei.ce sboiild point it out as expedient for the advantajru and safety " of (ioTernmeut, or for the j^eneryl convenience or prosperity of the people, to dividu " tiiiit country, it may then be done with niorejdlirnieat, trom a more certain knowlcdg-o " of tiie consequences of such a division. The iaconvenitiices that may arise from con- " timiin;^ the province united under ouo Lo;^islature are fe^v, and t ey are well kuoi^n " and understood : the advantaj^eti are unanimity, mutual support and itrenn^th ; but no " man can tell the dan^ferH of a separation. The danjjers, however, to be apprehended " are politiciil weakness, disunion, animosities and qiMrrels." That it is within the knovvled^re of sever.d of your Petitioners that the above Act had hardly become a law when the impolicy of the division of the province of Qneliec became nppareiit to His Majesty's ministers, as was declared by tlunn to tlie individual who made the representation from which your I'etitioners have now quoted. That ulthon^'h by tin? wisdom of tJje liupv'rial Parliament an Act was passed in 1822, intendin<>; to si't at rest, ut least for the n^oment, the disputes between the two provinces in re;riird to duties, for which end the power of deterniininTeatevil, so your Petitioners are well assured tliat this remedy, vie»>cd as a permanent measure, would in its execution prove a source of endless dispute, dis- (-'iitisfaction and jealousy between the two provinces ; and as prejfnant with the same effects «li) your Petitioners re;iiud the depriving' of tiie Lefjislature of Lower Canada of the power toraise any duties on importation, into that province »ithout the previous commiinica- tiou of any projected law for that purpose to the (ioverument of Upper Canada, and the transmission of it to En^rlund for the approval of Government there : the more considera- tion your Petitioners btjstow on the subject, the more continued is tl.eir conviction that instead of palliative remedies, an effectual and complete remedy should be resorted to, and this can only be found by the union of the provinces under one Lejjislature. Tliatas British subjects, and persons whose interests are deeply involved in tiic pros- perity of the provinces, your Petitioners cannot view the present state of affairs and their inevitable result without the most serious apprehensions. Sitmited as the Canadas are with respect to tlie United States of America, it is the interest of Oreat Britain to give as rapida developement to the resources of these provinces as they are capable ol", and Kuninient and increase tiieir stren>>th as much us possible, v\ith a view to their coiitiuuiiig' a distinct portion of America, secure under Britisli protection, and fnriiishinj;^ Great Britain the means of excrcisin}|; an important influence over that country, in sucii a manner iis circumstances may render-exjiedient. In furtherance of this object, it would be obviously tit that a communion of feeliu«', it is estimated, to 80,000 souls of Britis'i birth or of Bi itish descent, are unrepresented in the Leirislature, either directly or indirectly; His Majesty's subjects of French descent having it in their powtr to excludi*, aud actiiullf excludinif ON THE CIVIL (iOVERNMliNT OF CANADA. 377 ingly (lifli- first heard ea of the ; if at any and safety , to (Uvido knowlcdi the power tommi mica- da, and the h considera- conviction )(« resorted nre. the pn)s- affairs and i(> Canudfis Britain to lable o't, and cohtiauing lin^ Great in buch a it would if.vs, with u •)r.!vail in tii.ids to in- habits and estrauj'ed ser ticj of , la!ijjua<,as led parts of same politi- es for their f)dy of His )irtb or of fctly; His a •r ex •tiiully cludinif 1^0 18 pxcludinp from the House of Assembly all who do not fall into their ▼!ew«, (which PefiiionofMer- views, ri/flitor wronj:, it is not the |)resent object of your Petitioners to discuss ;) and thcchanm and o- effect has been that of the vast number of emigrants \*ho of late years have arrived from'^'M connected Great l^ritain and Ireland, probably not oin* twentieth part have remained within its 11-*'"' •*>* Cona- mits, the rest have soujjht protection under English institutions, by scttlinjr in Upper ^"^J^* '!"'|g '^"' < 'anada or in the United States. \ ^_ ' That by a union of the two provmces every Britisli inhabitant therein would be re- "^ presented were some measure at the same time to be adonted to enable the townships to retain members for themselves, and the claims of these inhabitants of British orijjfin are strongly built upon justice, that your Petitioners cannot doubt but your Honourable House Yvould see fit to provide for the unrepresented state of tlieso valuable and fertile portions of the province. That the Legislature of the Lower Province has for a long time past been so much agi- tated by dissensions, and their deliberations so much engrossed thereby, that trade, * agriculture, education and other matters of general interest have been neglected ; where- as, under an enlightened and efficient Legislature, undistracted by partial views and interests, your Petitioners confidently anticipate the rapid advancement of these, toge- ther with the improvement of the navigation and internal means of communication, the establishment of an Insolvent Debtors Act, of offices for the registry of lands and mort- gages, and other objects so necessary for security in commercial transactions. That while your Petitioners thus point out to your Honourable House the necessity of, and advantages which, in their humble opinion, would flow from a union, they are far from wishing such a measure on any other than equitable principles, without innovation in the laws or religion, or without doing violence to the feelings of any party more than may be found necessary to conduce to the general good. ^ ' May your Honourable House therefore be pleased to take these premises into your consideration ; and your Petitioners rely with full confidence on your wisdom for taking such measures thereupon as will promote tlie best interests of these jproTinces and long preserve them as valuable dependencies of the Crown of Great Britain. Aud your Petitioners, as in duty bouni, will ever pray. . 17th May 1828. # \