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Lorsque le document est trop grand pour §tre reproduit en un seul cliche, il est film6 d partir de Tangle supdrieur gauche, de gauche d droite, et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n6cessaire. Les diagrammes suivants illustrent la mdthode. 32 X 1 2 3 4 5 6 c<:>f,^-A.-2ti^-^ \ BOUNDARIES OF ONTARIO, SPEECH DELIVERED IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS FEBRUARY 19th, 1880. BT HON, WM, MACDOUGALL, C,B„ M,P. (From the Uncial li€i)mt of the iJtbate-'.J Mr. MACD0[TGALL: Tlie lion, geu- tl'^man whrv lins juKt iuldressod the House wai good enough to make some reference to a recommendation of mine, when J was employed as a Comm'ssioner for the Pro- vince of Ontario, to investigate this ques- tion of its western and northern bound- aries, and to report to that Uovernuient the facts, evidence, views and opinions i-esulting from that investigation. I sup- pose the hon. gentleman gives me some credit — I took it in a complimentary sense — that, on that occasion I recom- mended the ap[)ointment of a third person to act with the two Comtnissioners ap- pointed by the respective Governments, whose report might take tlit; form of an award. That is quite true, but in at- tempting to mnke that recommenda- tion a cover for, or to conunit mc in any way to the api)roval ot the award which has been made, the lion, gen- tleman compels me to say that, if the members of this Houiio will refei- to the correspondence published in the Journals of the Local Legislature, they will sen that it was not intended, nor did it entf r into my mind, that the report of thoCom- missioner.s should be a definitive award like that which we are now considering. It was to be all exaiuliial/iuu of the iiistoi y of the question, a collection of material facts whicli might be found pertinent to a decision of the question, Is there a western or northern boundary line of On- tario ( If we found it, we were to report the fact. We had no authority to make or declare a boundary. With the indul- gence of the House, I will take the oppor- tunity to make a few remarks upon the gravity of the question we have to deal with, and upon the objections which have been made to the proposition of the hon. gentleman o})posite (Mr. Dawson) to refer to a Committee of this House tho duty of examining and reporting upon this award. In the first place, the extent of territory that is involved, the material interests that are at stake — or rather the control and jurisdiction over these material in- terests — as well as the political questions involved in the action which this House is inviteil to take by the hon. gentleman opposite, when he asked us to approve of the award, are too inqjortant for off-hand or summary treatment. I have in my hand a report prepared by the Ontario (rovernment, accompanied by a map illustrating the extent of territory, and the importance of the interests from a Provincial point of view that art! involved in t is question. I will take the liberty of re.iding a .single '■ paragraph which will enable the House Oo^ U \ ^^H ^^^-2, a c^.ze.^^'i: to see how important, [in tho estimation ) of the Local Government of Ontario, at least, is tho (juestion we arc now discussin";. In nicntionin" tli country involvod, thi^ coiniiiii official dociimont stittes : "Tlie district iueluiled within tiiesu houii daries is of equal if not greater area than tho whole of the rest of Ontario, cxjlr he of the Lakes Ontario, Siijiorior, ]Iuroii, lyvi Krie. Omitting tliose Lakes tiie Province, witliiu the limits embraced in the proi)03ition oi the Dominion, contained al)out ()4,000,000 acres, or 100,000 si|iiare miles of territoiy. Fioni tho Quebec bouivdary line -from Lake Toniis- camingue to James Bay to ths Lake of the Woods, the distance cannot bo mucli le?s than seven hundred miles; while measured from north to south the new territory covers a breadth of country varying from over three hundred to one hundred miles; tho Province of Ontario will consequently in future possess an area of fully 200,000 square miles. This is 80,000 square miles greater than the area of the United Kingdom ; only 12,000 s(iiiare miles less than the whole (ierman Em[nre ; only 2,000 square miles less than France, and equal to tiie combined areas of Holland, Por- tugal, United Italy, Switzerland and Belgium. The awarded territory alone possesses .-in area greater by 20,000 s(iuarc miles than tho group of countries just named, excepting Italy. ^ So it will be seen from this .short state- ment, that a very large i)ortioii of tho earth's surface is waiting tho decision of this Parliament with resjject to its future municii)al and territorial jurisdiction. It cannot be said that such a question ought to be disposed of per saltaui, by a new Parliament. A large number of the mem- ', bers are new to tiiis question— at least j they have not dealt with it as legislators ' hitherto, or been called upon to investi- gate or discuss it. I have already found hon. members, well informed on most questions, who say theyJiavo not luid an opportunity of perusing those documents and voluminous reports, one by the late Minister of the Interior, and another by a distinguished litei-ateur of Toronto, Mr. Lindsey, and another published by the Ontario Government, which deal wilh the histoiy of the question. If members desiro to inform themselves as to the truth and cog#ncy of the statements made ])y the advocates of the different boundaries proposed, and to prouGunce intelligently upon the merits of tho case, it will bo necessary that some means be adopted to furnish tho House with iniormation, and that time be given it to decide. I am not quite convinced tliat it is not the dutv of the Government, in a matter of such gravity as tho present, to take the matter into their owir hands. [ confess 1 felt area of the force of the objections made on the of tills other side of the IJouse, against handin" owi'v a (pu'stiou lihd tliis to a private member, allowing him to take the control of it, and to name the Committee, of which he is to be G.'uirman. So far as I Clin judge from the spoocli of the Minister of Justice, yesterday, and from what has since transpired, the Government do not object to this C-ominittoe. If appointed, 1 think it will be necessary for ita members to go over the whole ground al- ready traversed by those concerned in the previous discussions. T think that, the question having remained for nine years •since the first Commissioners were ap- pointed, without friendly.settlementor final adjudication, it may properly remain a few weeks, or oven a few nionthsf longer, under investigation, before the Parlia- ment of tiie Dominion is called upon to make its final judgment in the case. As one of those concerned in the earlier en- quiries into the question of our north- western boundaries, and having been charged with the duty of examining and reporting up .n them, 1 have always felt anxious for, and have urged a speedy set- tlement. The Government of tlie Domin- ion in 1871, as well as the Local Govern- inent of that day, felt the imjrortance, in view of tho administration of justice in tho disputed territory, of having it clearly establislied what 'authority had jurisdic- tion in it. Tiie local Government of Ontario in 1S72— <\ o^.ange having taken place, i;nd the member for West Durham having acceded to the rreiniership — thought propi:r to take this question into tlieir own hands, in a spirit wholly differ- ent from that which moved those who first undertook to settle it. Tho ca,se was heing investigated. Commissioners had been a))pointed, one by the Dominion and the other by Ontario ; but final instruc- tions had not been given them, and they had never met. It Jiad been part of my duty in connection with the negotiations lor the acquisition of 'the Hudson's Bay Territory, to examine the maps and authorities bearing on this .subject. On the resignation of Mr. Suiidfield Mac- donald, and the assumption of office by the lion. meml)er for West Durham, I was called on sudilenlv to n'port as to thej)ro- r j^resa of tUo CoiuinUMion. A ftoi- some cor- roH[)Ouiloiice hctuona tho Local and 13o- iiunioii (Jovoruiucuts, I svan callwl iipo!! to roport iny viowH, oiiiiiious and cou- clusious, witli rcferciic't^ to tlin wliolo case. [u ohciliouco to tl'.ia pressing demuud, I pre]tan)d a lioport, wliicli yon will Had in the Sessional Papers of tiii- Local Legisiatuie for LS7.'5, Part ;>. It is merely a preliminary paper, siUtinj; forth tlie diliieiiUio.s of the qnestion, and the different constructions wliiuh miglit be ])ut on the Act (jf 177 1, and referring to the Commissions am] Instructions gi\en to the Governors of t!io Province of Qno- bcic, with other uutiiaritios. It states also the conclusions at which I, as an indi- vidual, had arrived, after roviovviny all those authorities. As soon as that ]xij)er came into the possession of the Local Government, I was instructed to cease all operations or proceedings as a Commis- 'sioner. In fact, I was very civilly, or, perhaps, I should say, uncivillj^ dismissed. I was discharged, at all events, from any furtlier duty or coacern in the mat- ter. The member for West Durliam took the case into his own liands, as head of the Local Government, and, after some correspondence, which jou will find in tlie papers published by tlie Local Legislature, a change of Government took place in tlie Dominion, the hon. gentleman's political friends acceding to oliice, and he Jiim.self becoming a Minister ; and for five years from that period hon. gentlemen opposite, with their political I'lionds in the Local Government, had tlie question under their control. Thry liad the Dominion Parliament ami the Ontario Legislature at their back ; the c.ioe had 'reached a cer- tain stage of progress when it fell into their hands, and nj)on them rests tlie responsibility for its nonsettlcmeut while they remained in power. They did not settle it, although it had been urged pre- viously, on both sides, that a speedy set- tlement wiis very desirable, in view of the jiossible commission of crimes in the dis- puted territory. Public works were com- inenccd there, under the Administration of the hon. goutlomau who now complains of a few weeks delay. The Arbitrators were appointed years ago, aud some of them died without having accomplished their mission. In view of these facts, it does not come witlt very good grace froiu hon, gentlemen opjiosite to pres;-; a new I'arliament, dealing with this witli an altenitioa in the de- scription. In the Bill, Qu(>bec was declai'cd to be hounded on the Hontli \>y tlio Ohio river, on the west l)y tiio MisslHsii)])!, on tlie nortli by the JiutlHon's Jiiiy territories. Jn the ivinendcd description, ii liniitfy line is laid down. Tiio description whs altered so far in older to avoid interference with the then Oolony of New York on the south. "With this object Mr. Hurko ran a line until he canio to the expression "north- ward," in the original description. He had got down to the junction of the Oiiio with the Mississippi, and, havin;.; no further interest in the matter, he did not interfere with the Bill any further. But the new description was inapplicable and in- congruous, because the words " the left bank of the Mississippr were omitted. I shall read the description of the country added to the Province of Quebec, by the Act of 1774, as it was expre.ssed in the Bill when it p;i8sed the House of Lords: — " Bo it GQ»cted, that all the said territories, islands and coantries, (referred to in the pre- amble), heretofore part of tbo territory of ('anada in North Am«ric*. extending southward to the bank* of the River Ohio; westward to the banks of the Mississippi, and northward to the southern boundary of the territory granted to the Merchant Adventurers of Enjjland trad- ing to Hudson's Buy, etc. , and they are hereby durinff His Majesty's pleasure, made part and parcel of the Provinos of Quebeo," etc. All the territories, etc., lying within the bounds mentioned, east of the Miss- issippi river, were annexed to Quebec, and, except the portion afterwards surren- dered to the United States, became i)art of Upper Canada, when that Province was created.' The description in the Act as finally passed, after defining a line on the south to the north-west aagle of Pennsylvania, is in these words : — " And thence along the western boundary of the said Province until it strikes the River Ohio, and alon;; the bank of the said river westword to the banks of the Mississippi, and northward to the southern boundary of the territory granted to the Merchant Adventurers of Eugland trading to Hudson's Bay." Now, of course, the whole argument turns upon the proper interpretation of this word, "northward," as used in the Act. We have the Act before us, and, according to a rule of construction which I remember to have read a good miiny years ago, you cannot look at the surrounding circum- stances in interpreting an Act of Parlia- ment. You cannot read the speeches of mem- bers of Parliament when the Act was umler discu.ssiontodiscovcr the mcaningof obscure passages, liut in more modern times I find that, in the ITnited St;itcs, and also in Kng- land,the Judges have found it necessary, in delivering their judgments, to consult the records of ParlianuMit, and even to consult Hansard. Tliore are cases in our own Courts in whiclitho Judges have refeired to what took jdaee in Parliament as a means of ascci'taining and explaining the meaning of andiiguous expressions. And I tliink that, in a great political question of this sort, we are justified in looking into its history. A brief exi>loration enables us to ascertain the object of the Imjjerial Government in adding these territories to the old Province of Quebec. The object as stated by Lord North was toinclude certain trading jjosts not then witliin the juris- diction of the Province of Quebec, in order to give them the advantage? of an organ- ised Government. These posts, as we well know, were beyond the boundary which would have bee:i assigned to Quebec if the line were to run due north from the junc- tion of the Ohio with the Mississippi. The very object of the Bill would have been defeated by such a construction. There is enough doubt in the case, at all events, to justify its reference to a Com- mittee of the ablest men in Parliament. If the membei-s of this House representing the other Provinces are under the appio- hension tliat. by agreeing to this conven- tional boundary, they will be giving to Ontario great additional territory and political power, whicli in the future might ijc used adversely to their interests, then they have a right to demand that this question shall be judicially determined by tiie highest judicial authority in the Em- pire. Inthatcase,'lapprehendall partiesand all Provinces will acquiesce in ;the decision. The people of the other Provinces do not, I believe, desire to deprive Ontario of her just rights. If entitled to this territory, she will getitandnoonawillhavearightto complain. Tiie peojde expect at our hands that wo shall defend, not only Dominion, but Pro- vincial rights, and I doubt if any Ontario member on either side of the House will hesitate to exercise the authority given him by his constituents, to defend the rights of the people of that Province to the last. We want the true boundary, so far as it can be ascertained, nothing more, nothing less. Now, let mo call the attention of the Houss for a few moments to tlio (liffioultins connocted with tlidt quostion. It is a lioiuuliry tli.it ciiii only bo iiscertained l»y rcfcnsiico to cdrtaiu points niRntioned in tlio Act of 1774, and in Royul Proo'.amaiions and Coniinissions to Governors. So loiir; as you are on the Mi8ais8ii)[>i, ycu iiavo a natiiial boundary on the west, but when you get to Lake Itaska, the most northern source of tliat river, you aro left on the pniiric, and then, having nothing to exi)l:iin tlio couite intended by the word northward, I Bm>- pose you must go duo nortli. Then on the north we have the limit " to the soutliern boundary of the territory grant- ed to the Hudson's Bay Company." The Minister of Justice is under the impression that -we did not make any attempt to claim or define boundaries in the discus- sion M'ith the Hudson's Bay authorities. That question, Sir, was very thoroughly discussed, and Mr. Mowat adopts the argument we used on that occamon, and makes it a part of his case. Mr. McDonald (Pictou) : I did not say that my lion, friend did not raise the question of boundary at all ; but I said that Ontario did not, antecedent to that discussion. Mr. MACDOUGALL : The question had not arisen until Confederation, as re- gards Ontario, and, in every controversy with the Hudson's Bay Company, we always contended that our boundary went very far west of the Height of Land. Tlic Government of Canada, on every public occasion, disputed the right of the Hud- son's Bay Company to territory outside of the undefined circle about Hudson's Bay. They took that ground upon the final settlement of the question, when Sir George Cartier and myself represented the Government, and i never lieard any com- ])laint about our argument, except my right hon.Triend said on our return : " You used pretty sharp language." I, for one, felt very warm upon that question, when I found that anex-membor of the Imperial Government had been appointed Governor of the Hudson's Bay Comi)any, and that, before our negotiations were concluded, we had to meet the argumenfs of a gentle- man to whom we had shown our hand when the statement of our rights as against the Hudson's Bay Company wsa confidential ly laid before the linjjerial Cabinet. Our territorial claims as against the IIit<1;iOti'.s Bay Company aiv s.^(, forth at length in the correspondence between the ('aiiadi;in Delegates and the Colonial OlKuc, and our arguments are (juoted by Mr. Mowat in his statement of tiie case for Ontiirio, as being cogent and in accord ance with facts. Wd wmv. acting of the name and on behalf of Canada. We felt tUat wo were I'citeratiug the views entertained and cxiiressed by the Ciov- erninnnt of Canida on all occasions since th(! (picstion wius (irst raised in Parlia- ment, and I am not aware that tlio con- tention of the Canadian Government that the i)roprietary rights of the Hudson's Bay (.'ompany were restiicted to the coun- try they occupied prior to the Treaty of Paris of 17G3, has ever been officially withdrawn or denied. If the Hudson's Bay Company had no legal right to the territory beyond the line laid down on the maps of that period — one or two liun- dred miles, perhaps, south of Hudson Bay — if that was the extreme extent southward to which they had laid claim, we have now to find, and the Judical Committee of the Privy Council, if tho question be referred to them, will have to find, the southern limit of the territory of the Hudson's Bay Company as laid/Jown by themselves. That will be «s very difficult proposition — a very difficult question to dis- l)oso of by metes and bounds. The Hudson's Bay Company at diflPerent periods extend- ed their claims. The French Govern- ment on the other hand, on behalf of their citizens and traders, pushed the boun- daries of the French territory as near to Hudson's Bay as possible. Coinmi oners were appointed on behalf of i, > >vo countries, who met and discussed tho matter, and maps were submitted. I do not know that a Court of Law could find any rule or precedent applicable to such a case, that would justify it in fixing a boundary outside of the limits laid down by these Commissioners. I think it probable that a line must be found some- where between these two. It will be im- possible to mark it u[)on the ground by re- ference to any known landmarks or natural objects. It will beamatter of reasoning and conjecture, and therefore, in regard to that part of the case, it seems to me the ques- tion is one that can very well be dis[)Osed of by the authority of Parliament. Th.e country between the southern boundary of the Hudson's Bay territory as ciaiineil citlier l)y the EngliKh or French Coni- iniH.sionoi's l.ftforotlio ( 'wsiou in \7M, and Jiuih.h'h May, wliicli is givcM) to Ontiirio I'V tliui Awiuvl, i.s of liti!,, viiltio 01- any ptirposo. Ft is said to lie trozfu within 11 Cou- iiiohfH oftlio surdico all thn yonr loiuiil. Tiu'io is no tinibur tiKM'd of liny conso(|n('nei', us explorers tell us. It niiiy Ik? licii in ininorals, }.ut our country is fdll of niinoriil(I(i|)(,sits in rcMons niiK'Ii nioif am;ssil)lc'. 1 ,Io not °<^ivii with thf hoii, nidnilior for Ah^'oina, tJuit llie country is too far distant, 'to bo prop- erly adniinisteicd by Ontario. 1 tliink our Local Ciovei,,nicnt is (juito capable of administering justice or doing whatever isiit'cessary for this territory uj) to James's IJay. The hon. gentleman proposes to establisli a new Pi'ovince in this rocky, treeless, and fiozen region— I think we have Provinces enough of that description. I do not find that the.Doiuinion is at all helped, or its financial burdens lessened by establishing new Provinces under such circumstances. Wo are exijcnding a groat deal for Manitoba— a fertile Prov- ince— and for the territory bayond and we are about to pay, if this House approves of the contracts the Govprnment have given out, a good many millions for the con- struction of a Railway in British Colum- bia, one of these newly acquired Pro- vinces. I think Sir, in view of these facts, there is not much inducement to theti.Npayers of this Dominion to create new Provinces unnecessarily. I see no necessity for it in this case. Ontario numbers netu'ly two millions— one half the pojiulation of this Dominion. It is the richest I'rovince— the most proiluc- tive Province—of this Dominion. It is tho only Province that to-dav jiays a surplus into the Dominion troaaury. Tlie other Provinces take more out of the Dominion Treasury than they contribute to it. Several Hon. GENTLEMEN : No no, Mr. MACDOUGALL : Hon. gentle- men say no— they ought to noveforthe Jjubhcation of the report made by Mr. Langton, in answer to an Address of this Hou.se, of tho income from, and the ex- penditure in, tho seveiv.l Provinces, for the first six years of Confederation. I think it will be seen from that report that a very considorablo j.ortion of tho revonuo and all tho surplus came from Ontario. I am not blaming tho other Provinces, nor do I regard it as a roasou for changing our liberal policy towards them. The people of Ontario are moro numerous, they occujty a, richer soil and enjoy a finer climate, their productive energies are greater, and they can aflbrd to pay moro, but, when wo are (old tliat they cannot con- trol or govern a certain j)ortion of terri- tory, because it is too distant, and would prove too burdensome, I think my hon. friend will have to find some better argu- ment to justify the creation of a new Pro- vince in the North. Upon the whole case, it appeals to me there is no occasion for dispute — no reason for exciting sec- tional feeling, in this matter. The people of Ontario will be satisfied with an adju- dication which is legal and conclusive, and they will accept whate\'er territory IS awarded to them by a properly consti- tuted tribunal. I believe they will accept what the Arbitratora have given them if confirmed by this House. It is less than many of their public writers and advocates claim, but still, if this award is not con- firmed by Parliament, the question must be determined by the highest judicial authority in the Empire. I hope, Sir, that, if a Committee be appointed, it will be composed of membera from diflFerent Provinces, who will gire their closest at- tention to the history, as well as the Iftgal and constitutional aspects of tho question. It will soon be discovered that it is not capable of mathematical or astronomical solution. It cannot be finally disposed of by any report or recommendation of a Select Committee. The Government will be responsible for the action of this House, and uo Commit- tee can relieve them of that responsibility. A Committee will bo able to collect the material facts and the evidence bearing ou the case. They will be able to report upon it more easily now than at any for- mer time, and Parliament will, after such o:cMinination and report, be in a better position to determine either to confirm the award or remit the question to a legal tribunal. 4-