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The following diagrams illustrate the method: Les cartes ou les planches trop grandes pour dtre reproduites en un seul ciichA sont filmAes i partir de Tangle supArieure gauche, de gauche d droite et de haut en bas, en prenant le nombre d'images n6cessaire. Le diagramme suivant illustre la mdthode : 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 .s' DYNAMITE FOR DOUBTING CASTLE The Necessity for the Times ; OR, IS THE JESUIT RIGHT ? ^^ By ASINUS. '^jf^t»itmi»iKm»«*mli!iiim*»r Entered according to Act of Parliament of Canada, in thv ye;^r of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and ninety-three, by ABinus," in the office of the Minister of Agriculture. TORONTO : PRESBYTERIAN PRINTING & PUBLISHING CO., Ltd. 1893, \ « I& b:: < iini* III . ,"U. , I , I ■ ^■^■■•■i^^i^ ''1H| I :^ I J s I \ 1 i I ^-K r.'...S\ \ ^^..^ ■■■ •<.■', •s^,' -i >- D/A GRA M. Jo/(d //n/es represent su^po^eU rea/if/es aut dottett //pes mere suppos/f/ons. 3orn^ 3'. n^f Fiq.Z. Life pa ^t. Life future. ^ ,^ ^T ^T. Point Death ^ Heaven --^^ Deefh&He//^ DMi'? . .'' '». Free will after CV. K^^ a&m CVi FT. D.m! free will & God's cable joined. D.&/IC*. -■ -., D.ikHh /^ S^.^^s cable. JFia (f. ^'' ~-^ .-' jPT. D&MO Diklfi • DYNAMITE I'OR DOUBTIiNG CASTLE Ube WcccasitB tot tbe xrimcs ; OR, IS THE JESUITE RIGHT? BY ASINUS, TORONTO, 1893. Entered .according to Act of rarliainent of Canadft, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hiin<)red aud ninety-throe, by "AHinns," in the office of the Minister of Agriculture. PREFACE. The preface is a plea for individual responsibility and personal effort to effect the tinity of Chiist's followers, ;ui(l naninfj those with whom this plea should have an influence, for the followiii)^ reasons: 1. Honour. "Gods fellow- workers, or co-labourers with God," is the greatest honour to men on enrth, and this designates the grandest partnership that is possible. l<"or partnership suggests benefit to such union, and, in a sunse, that all benefit must be men's, as God is infinite, it-is clear that no association should commend itself more to man. 2. Profit, liut if the title, co-labourer, means anything, it certainly gives us the idea of toil and effort. Now, to apply this to God must mean something very different from the same when ,-ipplied to man. For what meaning would there be in " labour " applied to God, when universal creation is only the fiat of Ilis will. Therefore, in applying this term to Him it could only mean the extending of Mis glory in perceptive mind. 3. Honesty. And surely it could only be an effort in the same direction that we could be worthy of " fellow- workers." And this in tvo ways: either by growing in the ''grace and knowledge of our I^ord and Saviour Jesus Christ," or by our instrumen- tality seeking to awaken others to a consciousness " of a knowledge of the glory of Go I in the face of Jesus Christ " iz Peter viii. iS. 2 Cor. iv. 6) ; for just in proportion as the glory is realized in conscience, is it extended and becomes a reality in our belief. d rrntitiirip ^^""^ ^^ '' becomes a reality in our being it is a formative *■ uraLlirUae. iq^qq ;,! our lives, for man acts on his belief, hence the vital import- ance of our belief being truth. A moment's reflection will show the force of the last senteiice whether applied to science or religion. 5 Sympathy if it be true that "When one member suffers all the members suffer with it" (i Cor. xii. 24), and that "we who are many are one body in Christ, and severally members one of another " (liom. xii. 5), therefore it becomes the positive duty of every professing follower to do all possible to alleviate such suffering, whether it arises from the egotism of the individual or, which is much the same, from " Having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of Ciod because of the igno- 6 Hpalth ranee that is in them " (Eph. iv. 18). But if Paul asserts ignorance as a ' cause of alienation from God. why should it be thought too horrible a shock for the courtesies of sectarianism if our denominationalism were to be accounted for for a similar reason ? For it is evident that we agree on everything we know, and it may just be as evident that we should or can honestly differ only on the things we 7 Rliyhr "^"^ '^°' know or understand. I have said " honestly differ," and what I 6 • mean by this, is that one man may go on to the limit of his knowledge, another to the limit of his, and as a result stand far apart. Now '-..s separation I call honest difference. There may be nothing wrong in such a difference, in such separa- tion, if the talents and opportunities have not been similar ; but it certainly does become criminal when we use means to obviate such separation and are satisfied with being babes in Christ, when time and opportunity demand that we should be full-grown men. For Paul teaches us that the arrangements of God are for this very 8 PpocrRcc purpose, ' for the perfecting of the saints for the working of minister- "rOKress. ing unto the building up of the body of Christ till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto full-grown men unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, that we may be no longer iv. PRKFACK, 10. Remedy. children, tossed to and fro, and c.irried about with every wind of doctrino by the Kindness s'*''^''l' •''f""'' ''"' wiles of error " (i:ph. iv. r^ i() riicp; is another IhinK to bt! said about " honost dilteroncc," it nevor can contain a contradiction, Hut thero are dittcrences in denominatinnalism wliicli are complete contradictions. Now, i\either may be truth, both c; nnot \)v truth. .Vtid surely those dif- ferences that involve a contradiction are the very things that should awaken our sus- fiicion and demand our first care; I say. " arouse our suspicion," for thi;rjtfinpv °"''' '^P"^'''- commands us to " be ready always to give answer to . CO SlSiency. ^.^.^^y man that asketh you, a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear" (i I'eter lii. 13). and another asserts that " every Scripture inspired of Cod is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction, which is righteousness: that the man of Cod may be complete fur- nished completely unto every good work " (5 Tim. iii. iG). 13. Discipline Kut when we analyze this unseemly thing of sectarian stiiie, does it not rather reveal the glorification of self by our belief, than the glorification of the object of our belief ? Or, in other words, glorying in the earthen vessel that the excellence of the power may be of " man ' and not " of Cod " (2 Cor. iv. 7), '■ and having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof (2 Tim. iii. 5* ; and, as Peter says, " which the ignorant and unsteatlfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures to their own destruction " (2 Peter ii. 16). [udging from the spirit so often seen in the discussion of differences it would seem that not many members of Christ's mystical body have spiritual homes, or how little heart work there must be in the churches with such beautiful prayers like the following : " Al- mighty and everlasting God, we beseech thee to inspire continually the universal Church with the spirit of truth, unity and concord : and grant, that all they that do confess Thy Holy name may agree in the truth of Thy Hol> word, and live in unity and iA Aiithnrit-v Godly love ? " And this is confirmed by Paul in a similar prayer 1*. AUinOPliy. jQ ,. Giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace " (Eph. iv .3). And all still made more binding upon us by the very prayer of Christ himself to the Father, " I pray that they all may be one ; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they may be also in us " (John xvii. 21). Xow, whether this prayer refers to a visibl-^ unity or not, there can be no doubt about a spiritual one. " For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. Hut if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His " (Romans viii. 9 141. And surely the plain duty for all who regard such scripture is to do all in their power for the spiritual unity of the Church, For there can be no visible union worthy of the name if it be not with the heart and understanding. And the iirst step to a real union is taught us by Christ in His prayer : "Sanctify them in Thy truth; Thy word is truth" (John xvii. 17). For certainly here " sanctify " would mean a separating us from our ignorance, and this can only be accomplished when " The Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth," and when " He sh ill glorify Me ; for He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you " Ifi Mfinrc (John xvi. 14). Then the necessary functions of the Spirit will belargely lo. means fulfilled when He reveals to us truth, and which "unity of the Spirit' will be an effectual " bond of peace." For, then truth will become part and parcel of self PREFACE. y. and a real factor in our lives. And if true \wncv of mind can be ours only through the understandinj,', then it becomes every Christian i\ut only tu "pray for the pe.ice of Jerusalem" (Psalm cxxii. G), but *o seeK earnestly to " givinR diligence to keep this 16 Results ""''^' "^ '^^ ^P""" '" '^^ ^""'' of pe.ice " (Kph. iv. 13). And a lack of this diligence on the part of the prcjfessor in the early Church no doubt allowed the sectarian spirit to crawl in, and a similar lack of dilif^ence on our part allows it to remain in, only to ^naw at the " peace and prosperity " of Zion's palaces to-day. For why should we differ, when I'aul says there is but one hope of your callniK. one l.ord, onf; faith, one btiptism, onedod and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Eph. iv. 46). ISut let this suffice. Appeal to Whom, My appeal is not to men who make the visible church a mere means for self K^jrification, neither to the men whose bread and butter or the pay- ment of whose subscription to the building fund depends upon the holding together that particular organization ; nor to the men or the church whose ';gotism can always fall back on an infallibility which ia independent of both reason and liible. Appeal But my appeal is to the i lependent men willing to use both reason and scripture candidly ; men whose religi n does noi consist merely of outward trap- ping!, but men whose souls are filled with the light of Shekina glory and in whose heart dwell.i the peace of God And should this appeal exclude the Jesuit, it should not ex- clude anyone worthy the name i'rotestant ; for they at le.ist profess to be guided by both r;ason and scripture. And with my earnest desire to bring back such to the truth, I would humbly submit to the candid seeker (not in theological phrase) " my reasons" and " scripture " why I differ from the Jesuit on one vital point. And I appeal to the earnest and candid minds for the sake of " honor, profit, honesty, gratitude, sympathy, health, rifrht, progress, kindness, remedy, seemliness, consist' ency, truth, authority, means anA peace." Wish. V'th the dedication of this effort for truth's sake to the "Spirit of all truth," I tru ' may make the reading of this as effectual in the future as the oral delivery of i> ,as been in the past, that peace and unity through the truth may be ours, and to His name be all the glory ! Barrie, October, 1893. A. D. DYNAMITE FOR DOUBTING CASTLE THK NiA ESSITY FOR THE TIMES; OR, IS THK JESUITE RIGHT? CHAPTER I. -Introductory Remarks. W. — My dear brother, I am happy to meet you, and I can assure you nothing affords me greater pleasure than slaughtering error by " the sword of the Spirit " before a large audience. R. — And I heartily com- mend your crusads against error. For it is only when men are properly convinced of their ignorance can they become true disciples. \V. — Then I hope your discipleship is not far off. For, if you are as honest now as when you proclaimed }our invitation, " I welcome any man that will show me by the word of God that I am wrong, for, if I am wrong, the sooner I know it the better, and I shall follow new light to-morrow." I fancy this will not be a difficult task, as your invitation would lead me to believe an honest intention. R. — I am most certainly honest. The painful inconsistencies in th.e belief of the professing Christians has forced me to give this invitation. For it seems to me most unreasonable that beliefs or creeds from the Bible differ so widely as to make practically Polytheists. Whilst the very unity of its revelation, tlie unitv of creation and the unity of our perception through our faculties, demonstrate to us monotheism. \V. — Just the very absurdity which appears to me ; and for which I am so anxious to put you right. R. — I must confess, that zeal may be commendable, and that you also, may merit that commendation. W. — Why of course you cannot doubt my zeal for the truth ! because I accepted at once your invitation as soon as the District Board presented it to me, and have risked " many perils by land " to come here. R — Perhaps it might be well to remember that motives determined the quality of zeal ; for Paul speaks of" a zeal without knowledge." W. — But in ni)' case it is just the opposite, for it is knowledge that is the cause of my zeal. And more- over, as Christ has said, " Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature," it becomes a necessary duty for me to' dis- charge my responsil)ility to you. R — I am glad that you realize so differently from Cain, " that you are your brother's keeper" and the truth is so plain to you. W.— But this duty becomes all the more pleasant because you hold so many things in common with me. And I cannot see why we should not be a unit in our belief, as our aims are professedly the same. l>nt it is your vital errors that make the fjreat j^iiH" betwen us, and which arouse my deepest sympathy. R. — Then I should have no hesitation to commit myself to such symj)athy, kiiow- led-^'e and zeal. For as tniih is so plain to }ou there will be no difficulty to impart it to a candid mind ; as my invitation was for tlie very purpose (j1 l)rin<,dn<,f us together info the unity " of the faith." W. — \'ery well, }'ou will excuse nie, if I have to use logic as vigorously as scripture, because real contradictions cannot possibly be smoothed over. R. — Most certainly, for if I get a physician I am (juite prepared to sub- mit to his blisters— ■" if they are not too porous." W. — Now then to treat your candor with lionesty, may I ask you. do you believe such teaching as the following extract contains, viz :— " They whom God hath accepted in Jtfis beloved, effectually called anil sanctified by His Spirit, can iiuither totally nor finally fall av/ay from the state of grace ; but shall certainly persevere tlierein to the end and be saved eternally?" R — Yes. W. — Do you mean to sa}', that you believe in such antiquated teaching as this, and when the majority of intelligent people are against }ou ? R. — I certainly do. l'\)r antujuity does not change truth, but only tests it ; and I fancy, " the majority of intelligent people " breathe and scarcely think of what they are doing. \V. — Now, I hope you will not be swayed by prejudice to deny fact. R. — I shall not, but shall candidl}' weigh with you every fact of reason and scripture you may produce, ^\^ — Then what do you mean wiien you say '* that truth does not change " when all the old creeds of Christendom are being changed ? R. — I mean that truth is as eternal and unchangeable as its author. VV. — What 1 are you not aware of the fact that even the truth of the old Confession of Faith is changed by the Presbyterian Church in the Great Repul)lic ? R.— -It might be as well, as wise, to remember that some people are so fast, they have no time for thought, and that they are only consistent to make their creed in keeping with fact, for consistency is a jewel that people naturally like to wan: W. — Do you insinuate tiien that these truths have been changed without thought and thus hurl a gratuitous insult at the United States ? R. — No ! no! my good man, but surely you are wandering from the subject ? W. — Never mind tiie subject ; I ask you to explain yourself. R. — I was afraid it might insult your intel- ligence to explain every little illusion, but since you derriand it I will give it. W. — Then give it ! R. — I mean to hurl no insult at the Great Republic, because I am an annexationist of all that is good ; but 1 only wanted to say to the Presbyterian part of that Republic, that their tinkering with the Confession of Faith has not changed the truth an iota, but simply tlrown away some (Perhaps for policy's sake to bring in sinners). W, — Do you then deny fact, and in addition to adding insult to injur)/ by the motives you impute — even if it is at the Presbyterians you throw it ? R. — Show me the fact I deny. And in reference to motives I impute, I fear there is too much policy in all the churches, for the great effort to-day is to get the quantity rather than the quality. W. — Sir, you arc too personal in your charges, and you are certainly denying fact ! I demand you to take that back ! R. — Please, do no \. 8 be so abrupt. Do you wish me to take back a fact before you point it out, or is it tlie assertion "too much poHcy in the churches" that offends you ? \V. — What right have you to make the assertion tiiat llie truth in the Confession of Faith is not clianged, when it can be seen in ahnost every newspaper what the Americans have been doing for the Presbyterian Confession ? And . R. — Hold! One thing at a time ! I have the rigiit that the ParHament of luigland, by a vote of both the Lords and Commons, has given me, wiien the Confession of Faith was endorsed by them as the system of truth for the Empire. W. — A vote of Parhament a grand standard for Theology! but I suppose it is on the principle that " might makes right " that your theology rests ? R. — Oh, no! But tl)e Parliament, having to contend against the aggressions of the Jesuits of the Church of Rome, tiiought it wise to unite a solid Protestantism against them, and for this purpose chose one hundred and fifty-three men and sent them to the truth of God, that they might get a system of truth for this Protestant Church ; and the grand work that these men presented to Parliament received its approval forthwith, and stands to-day one of the most minute monuments of the care, thougnt, piety, learning and ability of those very men whom the Parliament had thus honoured ! And the truth that is thrown out of that Confession is like hurling an insult at the English Parliament as well as at the Westminster Assembly, whose historic past shines amid the horizon of truth as clear as the sun, notwithstanding the blinking flash of glow-worm splendour ! — " but fools rush in where angels fear to tread." W. — Do you mean to say that one man may not be as capable of getting truth as 153 ? R. — The Parliament did not think so, evidently. W. — But I am not dealing with Parliaments when I am dealing with you ! 1 ask you to answer my question ; and more, do you think I am not as nmch opposed to the machinations of the Jesuits as any man ? R. — Well to put it mildly, if I had a very important case in court, I would prefer to have 153 witnesses, especially such as the Parliament would say was worthy; but, as for your last question, I would not like to say anything about that till you prove it. W.— I think you are not aware of the insult you are giving when you ask me to prove I am not a Jesuit. R. — No! my dear sir ; for you proposed it when you accepted my invitation. W. — If this is the way yon are going to deal with fact and weigh matters, I prefer a clearer mind and a better balanced head. R, — That may be ; but if you wiH give me some facts to weigh, and come back to your sul)ject, you may find before we finish this subject, that you may, like poor old Isaac, find while it is the hand of Esau it is the voice of Jacob, and 5'ou may be nearer the Jesuit than you expect. W. — I see, sir, you are so obtuse that you do not know an insult, by the language you use. But without any more of such, I return to the subject, and what I say is this, that it is a degradation to man's intelligence to believe such a doctrine as that extract contains ! R. — And perhaps you will point to whose intelligence it is a degradation in the present case ? W. — Most certainly I will. R. — But what is the method yoii propose to use ? \V. — Why, of course, reason and scrijv ture ; for I am no Je-^uit believin;^ in hhnd obedience to any head K. — • And I promise you aifain that I sliall candidl)- " \vji<,di " your facts of reason and scripture. \V. — Oh, then, if you wiH candidly weij^h you will soon be on the rii^dit side, svhicli is an encouras^in^ thou^dU to begin with ; for a .t^a-owin,::,' church is always an inspiration. R --All ri,,dit ; but proceed. W. — Well, my dear brother, your error is so clear to me that if I only knew the tlilliculties in your way, it would save me both tmie and trouble in proceeding,'. R. — Then would you wish me to place my diflicultics in l)elievin.i,' as you do, in the absolute diMiial of the teachings in the extract you have already given ? W. —That is the very thing that I am trying to im[>ress upon you. R. — 'ThanU you. Then }'ou will allow me to make reasoning more clear by using a diagram ? \V. — Certainly I Use euclid, algebra, trigonoiiK^try, and all the other exact sciences if }'Ou choose — it is all the same to me — as long as you use them with reason. R, — It will be }-our privilege to say whether I am using reason, for I shall appeal to you for }'our approval at every step of the diagram ; and nothing is more imj^ortant than truth. W — JJut go on. R. — But, I must proceed, with your granting nic some facts. W. — All right ; go on. CHAPTER II— The Diagram R. — Does God know as much as man ? \V. — Most certainly. R.— Does He knowwhen a man is born ? W. — Certainly. K. — Does he know when that man will die? W. — Yes, K. — Does He know the moment just between birth and death ? W. — Certainly. R — And the moments just between these moments, and so on ? \V. — Yes, every moment of our existence, for you must remember that I am just as thorough a believer in God with all His perfections as you are. R. — Well, according to that, your theism seems to be similar to my own ? W. — Emphatically so ! R. — So then we agree in our theism ? W. — Of course we do ! R. — vSo far then so good. But allow me to trouble you again ? W. — No trouble whatever, proceed. R — If a person is born, can we suppose that person miglit live ? W. — Most certainly, if he is not born dead. R. — And if the person has lived, will you allow me to represent the extent of that life with a line, as in fig. i of the demonstration ? W. — I have seen the journeys of Paul in that fashion on a map. R. — And, if such a life has had ups and downs or happiness and sorrow, or, as you would say, the good and bad element in it, would you allow, me to represent these by waves in a crooked line, as in fig. 2 ? W. — Certainly. R. — And if I can suppose a part of that as still future, will you allow me to represent it by a dotted line, as in fig. 3? W. — Of course. R. — Now then, suppose a 10 man was born, as in fif,'. 3, and has lived on to the present, as represen- ted l)y the Iett(.'rs FT, at the other end of the Wnc, and if he is in j^'ood health, may we sui)pose him to live to-morrow, to-morrow and so on, till lie dies (represented hy the dotted line) ? \V. — Most assnredly. R. — Now I ask you to say what will follow death, if the man has not been converted ? W.-— I certainly believe in that case paratesusas the poles, and tliis is tlie verj' error against which our ('hurch has so nobly struj^'gled from her commencement, and on(^ of the chief foundation stones upon which she stanils, is the doctrnu; that it is i^ossible for a man to fall from grace. R. — Well, but you have said that when God had converted the man, he was in a fit state for Heaven. \V.-— Yes, so I do ; but I do not saj' he is in Heaven, but only if he died in that •' condition " would he go there. R. — According to that it is simply the question of duration ot a "con verted condition " ? \V. — Assuredly so ; for he is still a free agent although he is converted. K. — Ihit you do admit that lie is fit for \ Heaven at his conversion, and that, therefore, raised at conversion to an altitude that must be on a level wit! hat death point, in the saved con- dition of iig. 4. W. — 1 admit it. R. — Now if we introduce a cable as representing Cjod's power and influence, in raising the man to the point shown by tlie letters CV, we sliall have fig. 5, and again if you assert that man has a free will in his converted condition, then you will allow me to repres'-Mit this true will by a line, as that is really tlie way a man will go as a free agent. \V. — Most certainly; for if a man acts accord- ing to his will, he is then most certainly a free agent. R. — Then, when he is in a converted condition where will he will to go ? W. — Rather a strange question ; Why ! where could he will to go but to Heaven. R. — Then if we represent his free will in this case it will be by a line with its ups and downs from point CV to point death and heaven. W. — Certainly. R. — Now, this added to fig. 5, we shall have fig. 6. W. — All right, that is reasonable. R. — Then if you grant me that this last line represents the whole of the free will in his converted condition, can any other line represent the man's free will ? W. — Cer- tainly not if that line represents his whole free will ? R. — Well now, if the man does not reach " death and heaven,'' which is the terniinati(jn of the will, is his free will fulfilled, if something external to this will does not produce the change ? W. — Most certainly not. R. — Will you give me a sufficient reason for this ? W. — Why yes, the man has changed his will. R. — Do you mean to say the man has changed his will without his own free agency? W. — I assert nothing of the kind. R. — Well, if you have represented the free will of this man by that line from point C\' to point death, which is the man's free agency, then he must have a free will within a free will, free agency within a free agency, that is, one free will counteracting the odier free will. Might there not be a danger in this of confusing the man's ethics, coiifouiKling his identity or mixing up his psjxhology ? W. - Now, sir, I hope }ou will not forget yourself, for trutli is too sacred to be trified with. R. — I beg your pardon, there is no trilling with this. For you did say that the aian changed his will and the man must certainly have something like this, if he can do this. W. — Oh I see what you mean. Well, then, 1 will say that external infiuence caused the man to change his mind. R. — That is better, as it is the motive that moves the will. But in that case you would require to have ■will force more powerful than man. W. — Why yes, the devil. R. — And 12 you think that tho devil is the most powerful force that prevents a man carrjin^,^ out his will in f,a)inf,^to ll"aven? W. — \'es 1 do. K. — I)o\outhfH thinU that the devil ma)' take a converted man to lU'U ? W. — Certainly 1 do, but not so lon^^ as he keeps in that condition. K.- Hut 3'ou say the devil is the most powerful aj^'ent to prevent a man from f^onj.,' to Heaven. Now if the man j,'els out of a converted condition is it too much to say that in that case, the devil must have had somethni}^' to do in the deter- miniu}.,' of the duration of that man's conversion? \\'. — Well that is so, K. — 'J'hen, for the sake of ilhi>tration, ma)' we suppose that the man con- tinued in a convertetl condition to the j)oint A whire the devil assails him ? W. — Most certainly. K. — Then )()u will allow me to (assume) make a supposition that )'Our theory is true and that the devil induces the man to go to hell. W. — Certaiid)-. R.--Then if we make a lotted line from point A, the assaultin>,f point of tiie devd to "death and hell" will f,Mve us l]<^. 7, and also the supposed truth of your doctrine of falliu}^ from .grace. \\'. — All right. R. — Now, with your permission, ma)' I divide up the life into moments by little cross bars cutting the line from the point CV, conversion, to point death and heaven ? W, — Certainly. K. — Then this will give us fig. 8, and th.e last figure of my construction. W. — So far so good then. K. — iJut have you constructed all these figures at every step with reasoii ? W'.— Certainly. K. — iJul are you (juite satisfied that you have weighed every steji of this demonstration ? W. — I am perfectl)- satisfietl that each of these figures, illustrating facts and suppositions, has tlie certainties of reason and common sense in its con- struction. K — And woukl it be quite safe in drawing inferences from them ? W. — Most assuredly, if the inferences are drawn with reason and common sense. K. — Thank you, then we will give you some inferences to show you my dilliculties in believing as you do in the doctrine of falling from grace. W. — Ali right, that is just what I would like to see. CHAPTER ni. — FiKST Oujfxtiox, Givks roo Much Power to the Advkrsakv. R. — Wo will revert to fig. 5, at point PT, why did God interfere with the man ? W. — To save the soul. R, — To save it from what ? W. — W'hy ; to save it from the point farther on, shown on the figure by death and hell. R. — Where was God intending that the man thus con- verted should go ? W. — Certainly, to the other point in the fig,, " death and heaven," as I do not admit of any other. R. — And God accordingly exalts the man to point CV, the same parallel as Heaven, as a real evidence of the fact that He wills that he shall go there ? W. — Yes, but He wills that all go there, R. — My dear Sir, you had better not confuse this man with the " all," as God does not happen to have " all conver- 13 ted" and in the same condition as this man lli has exalted. And we liad better just deal with one to prevent confusion ofthouj;ht, for it's this very condition from which we must drnw our infc;rence. W. — All rif,dit, then <^o on. R -And in h<^. 6, you have the man at point CV, with a free will to '^o to IJeaxen. And in fi},' 7, }ou have the d(;vil pre- venting^ the man usin;^' his free will to >^o to Heaven by taking' him down to hell. Now ni} difficulty is just here that this makes the devil not only more powerful than man but more powerful than (iod. b'or if you are correct in sayiui^ that " God knew every moment of my existence and that He entered into partnership with the man's soul at PT, then He must have done; so with His un y III can enjoy any comfort from yo[\v faith if \'ou urc nut cciidiii for ciw nionicnt P W . — 0{ course, our faith affords us every comfort, for in conversion we have passed from death unto life. K. — Yes, but the (juestion is how long you are to continue in that condition, for if you are not sure of Heaver one moment from CV to joint ** Djath and Heaven," how much comfort can you have in such a belief? W. — I do not understand what you mean. K — I shall try to make it plain. Von see the life cut up into monumts in fig. 8, fiom point (^\' to point "Death." Now I cannot see a moment's comfort for the man who believes in this doctrine " Falling from Grace," or who believes he is liable to go to hell at any of these moments ; for you see that were you to take ovv. moment's comfort, you lake it from the very doctrine you den)', and you become " a perseverance-of-the-saints man " for at least a moment. \V. — J kit you are quite wrong, for 1 am co.iscious of the fact that I have enjoj-ed thousands of moments of comfort in the past. R.--That may have been ; but that ma\' only prove that the life is better than the creed, or that the force of habit without an intelligent belief as its cause gives you comfort on the very ground that you deny, or that the basis of comfort remains in direct opposition to your asserted belief. W. — What, Sir, do you mean to say that 1 am a hypocrite, and that 1 am obtaining comforts under false pretences ? R. — Gently, no necessity for violent language. l^et me ex}>lain. W. — Forthwith ! R. — I am just showing you my difficulties, for if I believe in " the possibility of going to lu;ll every moment," surely you could not exjiect me to get any comfort out of that portion of the moment that such belief was occupying ni}' mind ? And then, surely I would be justified in saying that I could not take a whole moment's comfort with such belief. W. — Then do you mear to say that f am always thinking about going to hell ? R. — Oh, no, but it is that portion of the moment you forget your belief that you enjoy comfort or peace ; or, at least, that is the only way that I could see my way of reasonably getting a portion of a moment's com- fort or peace ; for certainly, I never could possibl}' get a whole moment's 16 j)eacc with such a lu-hct, as thv very assumi)ti()ii oi a whuk; moment s peace would be simply the denial of the hehef ; for we must riinembj-'r that it is not quantity, but quahty. which makes a lo<,'ical dilference. r'or cxamph' : A woman would be called a woiuan whether she is little or bi;,', but we could noi possibl}- i^Miore the real diflerence between iu;r and a chunk of wood. Ileuce you see that no oni; wiio holds the doctrine of " l''alhnf,' from Cirace " can lo;^Hcally tak(; t)ne moment's comfort ; for if they do, they must take comfcnt on the {ground I ha\e alreaily stated and which is so disagreeable to )OU, or else they must atteujpt a lof,'ical distinction without a lo{,'ical difference, not a very reasonable undertakinf,' or a ^'ood foundation for a church ; so that you should see that the \ery instant you assume^ a moments comfort or peace, you a^rvv. with riie. \V. — I shall be at the bottotu of your loijical hair-splitti;i;^' Sir, and will show up your fallacies. K. — Perfectly ri}^dit, but I venluri! to say if you get there, you need not e\[)ect to rival ])arninn on the extent of ycjur " show." r>ut aj^'ain, your iloctrine not only deprives us of a siuf^de moment's comfort, but it should paraly^^e human effort from lack of motive. W'. — I am certain this paralysis can have i.o jioint af^^ainst the Church to which 1 have the privilege of being a member, for the greatest activit)- characteri/.es every department of it. K. — I have not asserted what is, neither did 1 af!irm that some; persons may not have UKilives more inibu'iitial than their declared belii'f ; but I did assert wliat should be the logical outcome of such belief. \V. — "V'our insults are beneath my notice. But i.ro on arid explain. R. — Well, suppose you were a minislt^r, and you hac^ •ini a person no sooner right than he was just as liable to get wrorjg, how much encouragement could you get out of that kind of work for me ? \V. — There may be very little in such work for you. But can a man have agrand(;r motive than that of putting souls right ? K. — No motive grander on earth. W. — Then you agree with me on this point?. R. --Most certainly. But the work accomplished should have some bearing on tin; grandeur of moiive. Now look at the diflerence that must enter into your motive and mine. / believe that when the soul is converted it is a condition of right, ])ermanent as the throne of Jehovah, and the entering of a condi- tion of an eternal development of excelsior ; but, (lecoidiu^ ti> your belief ^ conversion or " putting a person right " may be a vanishing factor or a condition of right that may be only instantaneous in its ciuration. This IS my difficulty at least. W. — 1 shall examine this thought with a little more care. R. — That is right, you will then use your reason ; for I cannot see the wisdom of erecting a " doubting castle " on the way to Heaven for any child of CJod, except you kept the keys in your own hand and desire to exact toll. \\ , — But do you not think that if a man be absolutel}' certain of getting to Heaven it might have tlie effect of causing the man to fold his hands and do as he pleased ? R. — Now let me answer this carefully. First, as to " doing as he pleased," certain of Heaven or no, this is just the thing of everj'-da)' life, men doing as they please. And second, as to the " folding of the hands," love L_ 17 punluccs tlic vi:ry opposite cfToct accordiii),' to scripture and my own observation. \V'.--It does seem to nie that man nnist have some wholesome kind of thinj; to stimulate or to cause him to flee from hell. K. — iJut '.vhy should a scait'-(r«)\v kind of business seem to havr a more •' wholesome " eHecl than the powei of lo\(.' ; and how does this intensify the man's hunf,'erin>,' and thirsting after riKht(!Ousness, or (piicken the man's perception of the moral beauty and desirableness of Ib.'aven ? In this case mv (!ifli(ult>' would be to nnderstant to tlif point "|)tatli." I thinU that a minister's teaching; should he consisiiiit. W. Is it another nisull, Sir ? l'"or \\v. arc consistent with our (lospel. K. — The same (jospel to converted and nnconvirti'd ? W. Most certainly, " for there is no icspect of persons with us." R. — ^'ou have relieved my mind a iitth; by your words "our (iospel." Hut this briuf^s nu- to my serious ditlicidty, lor were I to hold such a doctrint;, all tlu! (lospel I could consistently hold out to a poor sinner would have to be somethiiiL; such as follows^ namely: \'ou kncnv, pcjor sinner, 1 make niyli\in;; by preachni^, and to show you that I am worthy of my hire, I will do all I can for you in the way of siiif^Mit;,', pn-achin;; and prajinj;, that Jehovah may do some- thiuf,' for you. lint to be honest with you, I, myself, am (]uite convinced that what He ma)' do for y(ni will not amount to much, so you need not be carried away with this thinj,' ; for it has not a moment's certanity in it. but will only place you in a (ondilioii of doubt between Heaven and lu'll. Now, for my [)art, 1 would be afraid of the niakuliclions in the iMth and H)t\\ verses of the last chapter of Revelation, were 1 to call this (lospel. \V. -Well, vSir, it seems to me you have such striking; difliculties that tlujy may turn into boomeraiif^'s, but yet 1 cannot see but that the opposite of our teachin;^' and persuadiii},' men " once in f^'racc always in grace," must only result in folding of the ha^ids and indifference. R — That you may not see it may be the fact, but let me try to show you on your own ground. Do you think it is a good thing to begin the Divine life? W. — Most emphatically, and 1 say there is no Church doing more for the conversion of the world. K — IJut wiiy do you do more tlian other organizations for the conversion of tlie workl ? W. — Hecause we think there is nothing more glcjrious than bringing into the fold of tiie Lord. R. — All right ; now just follow me. If tiien it is such a " glorious thing " as an impulse for you and other souls to work to begin the Divine life, why should you think that the continuance of it " should be any less an impulse for work and watch- fulness ? " I woukl still have my difficulties to call thai (iospel (name it what you may), which lias onl_v the certainty of a gloruMis beginning, except you call it a mere (jospel of human effort ; and in that case it is only another way of deceiving ourselves by practically trying to attain Heaven by works. \V. — Well, then, would you do away with " good works? '■ K. — ("ertainly not ; for I hold that true love will be the only constant force to protliice good works. W. — But do you think that you can get a constant enough force out of this love witiiout the doubt of hell ? R. — Yes, for did the love of that dearest of mothers ever cease in weaving around you the warp of her most teiuier sympathy and the woof of her most vigilant care ? Or did the daily task of that loving father of yours become a more dead weight to him, because of the love 19 that pcrcoLilfd tlir()ii;;h tin: talij^uiii;; iiioiiunts ol thai ceaseless toil? Or coiix! down to dollars and rents— now woidd yon not he the very las' man that would pnt yonr money into a donhtlnl hank ? And I solemnly ask \()U which is the most pieeion^;? tor this jnst heronies another diHicult-y to me how jon can pnl the soi.l in a doirhthil concern you would not sink yi>ni lirsl d(jll;ii in, lor I holil that thi' soul is more pre<"ions than money. W. hare )on say, Sir, liiat I am wion;.; ? U. — l*on't, please, don't. 'Ihis lan^,Miaj,'e has a tendency to make one nervous, and such exclamations and imperative demands almost scare an answer out of a person on the instant, wiliiout dut! consideration. jSiit were I to say )'ou were wroni; that would put me on the al'irmative side ot this (piestion ; hut you know y. Hut it seems to me that your loose" scr(;w " business has just came in a little too late. \\^ — Then, Sir, dare you blasphemously say that God is to blame for the converted man's fjfoing to hell ? R. — Oh, please, oh, please, do not pile up the dilliculties for my confusion. For you kn.ow m\- weakness and the loose screw is all that I can .i^^et into my head at a time. \\'.- Then, f^o on with the loose screw's defect as to time. R. — I could easil}' admit a loose screw in the sinner goin;^^ to hell. i3nt I cannot admit a loose screw in the saint of (iod without rellectinj^ on the attiibutes of Deity. \\'.— Absurd, absurd, vSir. R. — Please wait, do not conhise my thoughts with your prejudice. Hut let me explain. You have already admitted mat God saw eyery possibility from point PT in fig. 8, to " death and heaven.'' Nov;, any loose screw business after God has fastened the cable around the saint at point PT, and raised him to point CV, comes m rather too late or at the cost of the attributes of L'eity. For according to your own admission, God saw all the loose screws, so to speak, no matter what they were. And my idea of conversion was just the i)ro- cess of God's tightening all the loose screws whether they be the free will of man or free will of devil. So you see, according to my idea, conver- sion is a glorious act worthy of and in keeping with the infinite attributes of Deity. But just in proportion as you make insignificant, the act of God in conversion, do you lower your object of worship, or detract from the attributes of God. T"or you can easily see that God must have seen every loose screw at point PT if Me is omniscient. But if He did not. He is not omniscient. And again, if He is not omnipotent, then He can provide for all He sees. But if He cannot, He is net omnipotent. But again, if He is both omniscient and omnipotent, and only sees, but does not provide, then He is not honest in the partnership He voluntarily en; ers at point PT. \V. — Tha. is just fallacious ; for it seems to me you are reasoning in a circle. R. — Perhaps, your prejudice may be taking squares for circles. \V. — Sir, do you mean to insult ine, that my very eyes do not see straight ? R. — Pardc: me, I had no reference to your eyes, but to your reason. But if I keep more closely to my diagram it may prevent the orbiculat tendencies of your mind. Then you admit that God saw every " up " and " down " as well as every assault of free will, whether man or devil, from point PT to point " Death and Heaven." Thus you agree to His omniscience, And you have admitted that He knt!w what He was undertaking at tiie point PT and as an evidence of the power He pos- sessed. He honestly raised the man to point CV, Now, could anyone say He was honest if His omnipotence did not provide for the balance of that contract. Or could anyone say that God put the man in a saved 22 condition at ary moment of conversion, if He saw at the next moment the free will of man or devil, would carry that soul to hell. Now, all tiiat I could possibly see, if no provision was madefor security after (^\', is that God must have deceived the convert from point FT to point C \', to make hell all the more intense by the hopes that were awakened. l)Ut, 1 ask, who can courL suc!i blasphemous conclusion, even at any alternativ to one's most petted rij,dit iiand.eyeor foot. Sothat, perhaps, you see the bearing; of the question you ejaculated a few moments aj^o. \\'. — " Do 3'ou say th.at God is to blame for tiie converted man's <;oin^' to hell"? K. — I say most emphatically no, for I believe the converted man will not <>;o to hell. But, allhouf,di you may not take kindly to it, it is your theory of fallin<,f from grace that involves this sad accusation, for you will likely hnd some little difficulty to get honest men to skip tile logic of fact from your theory. For if you affirm that God honestly {>icks up the man on liis way to hell, my difficulty is to see how the man can get to hell before God honestly, or dishonestly, drops liim again, and if J le drops the man again it must tarnish the attributes of Deity. W. — Absurd, outrageous, for such a cursed doctrine as yours only makes men mere machines or turns them into hrndspikesor pok ;rs. R. — Oh, gently, gently, I am afraid you are sax'ing that by rote. i3ut let us examine this new side issue with the light of reason arid common sense W. — All right then, proceed. R. — Well, will you please haml me that book ? W. — Certainly, there. R. — Thank you. Now, as you seem to have a theory of " free will " of your own, tell me whose will does this book in my hand now represent ? W. — Mine, because I had power to keep it from you. R. — Now think what you are saying, ^'ou have asserted that it was your will, because you iiad power to ke(!p it from me. Now, did you liegin to think how mucli power 3'ou hatl before you gave me this book ? or did the thought of power ever enter }'our mind ? W. — It did not. R.— Then how can you assert that a thought that never en- tered your mind can bt; a cause of action within your mind. W. — 1 will take that back. II, — That is graceful honesty. But answer my question, whose will does this represent? \V. — Both our wills. I^. — That is better, liui why was it your will ? W — Because you asked me. R. — Then my " asking "' affected 3'our will, and you gave me the book ? W. — Yes. R. — Did you do it willingly or freely, witliout coercion or compul- sion. \V. — Most certainly. R. — But please give me \'our oi:)inion on another question, W'hicli child of tha*: home do you deem the better, the one wlio anticipates the father and motlier's requests and cheerfully obeys, or the other who refuses to obey, and says " no " I won't, go and doit yourself. W. — The former child, certainly. R. — And we agreeoii that. But which of these do you say is the greater machine of the father and mother ? W. — I suppose the first named child. R. — And I would agree with you here too. But you never use the term " machine " with disparagement to the better cliild. W. — Most assuredly not. R. — And you see how admirably you can reason when prejudice does not sway. But' let me just remind you that you seem to have no objection to a little of the machine idea if it runs in the right direction, and not against some 23 of your preconceivnl fancies. But more, were you turned into either a *' machine, handspike or poker," when you chd my will ? W. — Certairly not. ])Ut that analo,<,'y ts false ; for your powi-r is limited, but (lod's is not. R. — Then this becomes all the more fatal to yourdoctrine. W. — 1 low Sir. K. — I-Jecause if I, a frail thiufjf like yourself, can make you do my will 7i>il/iti!^ly, I feel mclined to allirm He may do it also. \V. — lUit that is just where your " inclination " is warped by your false theolop;y. For I know I could resist your power, but not (lod's. R. — I am afraid your last assertion rests on two {.aatuitous assumptions, namely : First, that you kuoio that you C(Vi resist my pnwr, when all that the, facts of the case show is clear evidenct.,' to the contrarj- that you did not resist, but simply complied with my will, more especially' as you do not know how much reserved power I have. And agani, second, that Ciod cannot proportion a means to the end. Let me illustrate the absurtlity and danger of such assumption. If the Onniipotent desired Lo kill a flea on the jump, would it be the safest kind of reasoning to conclude that lie must hurl tiic planet Jupiter or Saturn at our earth .o accomplish that purpose ? W . — Profanity, profanity, Sir, R. — Another new issue. But hold, do not shout before you get •out of the bush. I sohtmnly appeal to Truth, which is the most pro- fane ; my illustrations to drive y(Mi from your prejudice, or a false prcju- etween the Heavenly I'ather and His converted children ? \V. — Just for the very reason I have given, that it makes men mere machmes. R. — Then let me still show you another assumption that you are gratui- tously taking, namely : The moment onmipotence touches a man, it aimihilates free agency. And this practically means that a mail must be absdlntcly iiuiependcnt of the Sovereign of tlie universe, and this is simply contrary to fact, and impossible. And again, if your gratuitous assumption or cry of " macliine "' ! "machine"! suits your })urpose better than reason, 1 do not see how it comes very much to your rescue. For, if you are bound to make a man a machine to fortify your theory against reason and fact, it is quite evident that the machine part of it, about whicli you speak so lightly, was made in your theological work- shop, and can have no force against my position. Because, all that I am contending for (in your phraseology) is, that the machine will keep the track. And one of my difficulties is just iionestly here, how you can believe that the building of a locomotive and putting it on the track, is such a trifling job compared with keeping it on the track ? But, again, come to the point. Su[ipose I grant you what you really assume, namely : that keeping on the more difficult than making and putting on, how does that remove my difficulties or save you from the inevitable alternates tiiat must follow ? W. — What inevitables must 24 tollow, Sir, ? R. — Since you liave forct-d the issue upon ine with most tender rej^ard for your teeHiif,'s, I must he hoiU'St, I will then proceeil. Thire nuisl be some detective, first, either with machine, second, with the walclnnan. third, or with the road. W. — I5las[)hemy aj^'ain. Sir. Do you mean to say tlu'rc; is anything' wron;; with the world's Ivedeemer who is the way llimselt ? ii. — Please do not startle one in that way. [did Hill say there was any defect in him who is the Wa}-. the Truth and the l.ife. W. — Then you will take that hack? K.— 1 did not say Me was wron.Lj. But was only ;^Mvin^' the alternatives that you ma\' show me where the defi;cl is. \V. — I say it is in the machine. R — Then stick to )our machine, if there is no Haw in the road or track, and l)rinj^ in no more side issues. W — Capital, vSir, hut 1 don"t think llu^re is stronj.,^ arj^unient in a man losing,' his temper, [i — 1 a})()lo;;i/,e and re;.,aet Sir. iJut now to the only alternatives, with all due respect to your theological blow pipe, then the machine mi:st be defective in your workshop. W. — An outraf^eous insult. Sir, I will not admit, bor dare you who also deny perfection, say there are no vandals outside oiu" workshop ? R. — I am sorry you take it so hard. lUit tie yoii mean to ,s;ive another alternative by your last expression ? W . — Do I mean ? A man with half an e}e open and only could see half across his nose, would not require to ask such a question. R. — Oh j,'ently, but let me ask you who takes care and watches over us ? \V.— I know who watches over me. b'or I can say m the comfortini{ lanj:;uaj^e of the I2ist Ps., "Behold he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep." R. — 1 am pleased yon are takin;.,' the comfort of scripture. Or shall I assume you take tlie place of Israel ? W.— Certainh-, " An Israelite in whom there is no guile." R. — \'ery good, and I suppose it may not disturb youi reli- gious comfort too much to venture to say that you have the same as watchman over Israel's theological workshops, mechanical, engineering and construction departments, all included. \V. — And what then ? R. Why tlum you did not gain much at my expense by trying to protect the reputation of your shop by the stubterfuge that some vandal outside of it caused the defect l)y taking the nut off some bolt or jilacing a stone on the track. I'or nut off or stone on, could not very well escape the eye of such a watchman. W. — I never said so. R. — Now, Israel, you may not have said so, but your words iuiplied so, Ah, yes. no odds how much we may be annoyed with tail or wag, a good Israelite's dog will wag his tail at the master, and his chickens will come lionie to roost. And to be honest, painful as it may be to me, without choice this brings me back, defective machine alternatives, and all to your workshop. \V. — And I hope you are therefore getting nearer the truth. R — I am certamly cornering the defect, if that is what you mean. For the defect lies now in one of three alternatives, viz : ist, either in the selection of defective material ; 2nd, or too many machines rushed through with- out due care ; 3rd, or, if all the skill that is in the shop be applied with due care, then your shop is defective in skill. W. — A barefaced insult in a mansown shop 1 feel, Sir, like ejecting you off my premises. R. — Oh, gently, for that might be a doubtful argument (except you are extra 25 at backsliding ) lint I atn candid, my friend, when 1 tell you ///> or doion north, suiith, easi or west will not change truth. But perhaps this machine business had better be put cut of your shop if you are really interesti'd in either. \V. — 1 am afraid for neither, Sir. R. — Then we will just stick to machine and -ihop till we get the Haw. But to illustrate more clearly let us apply this to our diagr.im, fig r is more ominous than my wonls and tone. For the f^lor}' oi the nineteenth century' may not see the same f^dory that you see in any institution that produces nothing better thaii Peter's wjshed pii; or enutica doj,'s. W. — Vour low nature crawls on insults anil runs so freely in its re[)tile course that its very slotij^di would supply scourge for a legion of furies or strands for rope to suspend every infidel from Dan to Heersheba from honest gibbet, li. — Slop, Israelite, you are tracing back your genealogy too (inickly. I'or you are not the first whose argument was " crucify hiin," '* crucify him." \V. — Sir, I demand in tlie name of a common Cfiristianity that yon forthwith apologize. R. — Ah, wily Israelite, "in whom there is no guile"; )-ou have been drawing me off on to all these digressions l)y insisting on apologies on side issues, lint you see truth will out And again )our falling from grace brings us right back to our machine again. W. — Contempt with you and machine. R.--ntit hold, Israelitc\ " in whom there is no guiU',' )ou are forgettirg " what manner of spirit ye are " or should be " of." I'^or 3'ou must not forget by our metapliors of machines, machine shop etc., that " machine" means a converted soul and that " machine shop" means the power of God in conversion through all the instrumentality aiul means He may use. Now, when you remember tliis is the meaning of " machine " and " machine shop," etc., how can you think it possible for me to come to any other conclusion than that it must reflect on the attributes of D(Mty if the converted of God lands in hell ? W'.— I do not assert that will, l)Ut only that is possible. R.— Well, but if you have admitted that man can only fall down, the possibility that (lotl did not provide against (and you admit that God saw every possibility), then what is the object of asserting a possibility that does not exist ? For if I were to ask you to pro\'etliut what do you mean by this last assertion ? W. — Why I mean that if man is a free agent then he may abust: his free agency l)y going wrong. R. — IJut were not the pos- sibilities of that free agenc}' seen by God ? W. — Most certainl}'. R. — Well, then, was it less the duty of God in conversion to provide against the wrong use of a man's free agency thin the devil's free agency ? And surely it' iJod saw there was certain danger of the man's free agency which wouUl carry him to hell, it would just be as needful on tlie part of God (if He wished and converted the man to go to Heaven), to provide against this possibility as any other possibility that would take the man to hell. W. — I>ut in that case I cannot see but that the sovereignty of God wipes out the free agency of man. R. — Are you not confusing your 28 own limitations with this nutter ? Do you admit tiial a converted man may do one thinay do a si'cond, a tiiird, a fourth, et('.. on to I leaven freely rij^ht ? W. -But tiiat confuses the sovisrei^'nty (jf (iod and tree aj^ency of man in such a way that we cannot distin},Miish between them. F^. — Hut what is tlij mcanin<; of your assertion now ? l''or all that I can see that you make out by it, is simply this, that our faculties are limited. And then you make the limitation of our faculties or our i,','norance, a cause of confusinj^ the fact or the thin;; which the mind perceives. For it is ,is certain to you as any other fact we per- ceive, that the converted man is free in tloin;; the will of God, but to be able to say just exactly where the human and divine meet is beyond our limited faculties at present to discover. And you ini^Mit just as well justify a captain casting anchor in mid-ocean and retaming all on board there, just because he cannot discover how much of the friendh' breeze fills his bendmg sails. But there is one thing certainly clear to me, that the more of the divine love we discover constraining our acts, the less cause will there be to flatt( »• human conceits. Anil this may be the very thing that the natural man so much hates and thai makes all kind of ritual so congenial to him, For when we lower the divine element in any act, in that same proportion we exalt or flatter the human. And vice vcfsii. \V. — But how can 1 know how much 1 am indebted to God if I cannot see where the divine and liuman meet ? R. — With far greater likelihood of being successful, yon might as well try to jump over the moon. For if, " Every good and perfect gift comes from God " and " Eye hath not seen, neither entered into the heart of man to conceive what the Lord hath prepared for them that love him," vou might find yourself in attempting such at a hopeless task in tune. Fc . I fancy when the higher mountains oi bliss shall l)e scaled there will be heights beyond, only to invite us higher, as the cycles of eternity ate the limit of this voyage. \V. — Do you mean to say that there is anythingwrong in tr\ing to discover where the sovereignty of God and the free agency of man meet ? R. — Well, if you have so much time that you cannot employ it otherwise and this presumptuous undertaking does not sacrifice other obligations and duties of the present ? W. — But, j'ou can seethe great zeal that we have (and which is the best test of a vital Christianity) impels us to get at the solution of such difficulties. R. — Another digression. Now, if you still hold that zeal is the best test of " vital Christianity," I am afraid you are not looking iiigh enough up Mount Carmel. Or if you are, you are not taking in the teaching of Elijah and the Baaliti prophets. Forif the" zeal " or activity be the best test of Christianity (without that zeal being the result of knowledge and love), this is the very error of the present day of confounding physical activity with spiritual life, and is also the cause of all ritualism. For by this confusion we may eliminate all the divine element and only leave ph3'sical activity. And hence pureandsimpleritua- lisni. W. — But Sir, do you not behold the holy zeal of our Church in every direction ? R. — I say still if it is pure and simple zeal that is to be the test of Christianity, then I nmst give the palm to the Church that 29 Sir John the Premier Ixloiif^'s to. I-'or, to the rrecht of tiic Roman Cathohc Church be it s.'iid. I would pit for ((lidblooded (imiestness or jceal, every woman wiliiin seven miles of her ("hurch a^oiinst thi- ^,'randest knee drill of Salvation Army, costumes ihippiuf,', colors llyinj,', drums bauf^diif,', tambourines jinj^din},', larnyx strainiiif^', lun|^' burstin■,^ nnul knee deep, tavern stand and all otiier kind of heavenly instruments thrown nito the bar^^ain. b'or there,' is the sc^me kind of ach'entinc .iIkhU such eNcitenient. And nun and wom(M run the risk of becomin^f a martjr I.0 same thin^^ Hut the Roman Catholir woman every Sa!)bath morning' k'oni>4 Ik r 14 miles all kimls of wnul and weather for z( ai, knocks out (iciieral IJooth's e3e every time. W. — JJut, I see you do not accept zeal at ail, but in your cold reasoninj,' try to demonstrate a moral truth with a mathematical demonstration, which is an absurdity-. R. — ICxcuse me, (it is a pit)' you did not si'e this some time aj^o when )'ou made the diaf^'ram), I am not trNJUf^ to demonstrate a moral, but only to show by this dia^aaui what God is trying,' to accomplish by conversion. J^>ut without being led away further by any tiigression, I would very briefly sum up my diliiculties as far as reason is concerned, if you will just return to our diagram, fig. H. If God interferes with man at point PT, converting him b\' raising him to point CV to goto "JI(>a\en," and gives him a free will to go there, and the man should land at hell instead (1st), Then he can only do so by the interference of the devil, and if the devil succeeds against God and man, this makes him supreme. (2nd). It destroys all motive that may encourage man in his work. (ti). For no comerted man would be justified in taking one moment's comfort from such belief. (0). If you believe tliat, you may get a person no sooner up than he is just as liable to go down. Then there would be no encouragement to get people right. (Or there was a mistake that some red Incban with his firearms was not on hand to pop him oil' at the fly when he was erect before he would again squat or dodge.) (c). And there could be no gospel in the thing that sucli a person could offer to me, as there could not be a moment's good news or certainty in it. And all that I could possibly see in it would be only a gospel of human effort to be manipulated by human efifort of priestcraft, whether that be purgatorial or otherwise, 3rd. It destroys the attributes of God. For if God is iionest in the partnership at point PT to take tlie soul to "Heaven," then if such converted soul docs not reach there, it must be because either God did not know what He was undertaking, or if He did, then He did not provide sufficient efficacy in the means. Now these are someof my difficulties I humbl)' submit for your earnest and prayerful removal. For I cannot be a unit with the Jesuit until such difference be removed. \V.— But Paul says, " But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." And does this not imply that Paul clearly taugiit the possibility of falling from grace ? R. — Paul is good authority. But it depends how he is under- stood, as Peter says of Paul, 2nd Peter 3, " In which are some things 30 hard to hv iindcrstood, which they that are unharined and iit. stable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."' Now, the (luotation you havi; <,dveii from i Cor. ix. jj, was never in- tended by Paul to teach the possibility of falling,' from '^'race. Ihit to teach them evidently what th(;y did not appear to know, rainely : that a trn(.' Christianii}' will " keep in subjection the body," andfrcnn this state- ment Paul .allows the Corinthians to draw the inference as to the Chris- tianity they have. W. — I5nt I should like to know just exactly how mucli ofmy act is force work on the part of (iod or my own free will. K. — Well, certaudy, you have no more rij,dit to say that any of your aci is Jon'Cil work on the part of Goti than you v.'oiUil h.ive to say Ih.it it was forced work on my part when you did my will by handinj^ tlie book or the devil's will. And, morecjver, you just know as little about the rpian- tity of will forn- 1 used ii: causinj^ >ou to do my will, .is you can know of God's will force to cause you to do His will. For all that we can really know is the act we do with the iielp of the divine. I'ut when you are not satisfied with that, you ;ire onl}- in that case conhisinj,' the clear perceptions of ttie mind with the sim})lc.> limitations of j-our knowledjLje. \\, — Perhaps there is an element in tliat I will require to study over. R. — But as you h.ive bej^'un with scripture it must be this, .after all, th.it must j,'uide us. And you would recjuire to show me that I was pultinj; reliance falsely on scripture, before I could be one with you. Of these passages I only quote a few as follows : — CHAPTER v.— ScRiPTURK. Matt. iii. 12 — And He will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff He will burn up with umiuenchable fire. Matt. X. 20- For it is not ye that s})eak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Also x. 31 — Fear not, therefore, y.i are of more value than man)' sparrov^" Every one, tlierefore, who shall confess Me before men, him wih ^Iso confess before my Feather which is in heaveij. Matt. xiii. 12 — F'or whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance. Also xiii. 23 — And he that was sown upon good ground, that is he that hearet'n the word, and understandeth it, who verily beareth fruit, and bnngeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Matt. XV. 13 — But he answered and said, every plant which my Heavenly Feather planted not shall be rooted up. Matt. xxi. 22 — And all things whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. 31 M.'itt. xxiv. 24. — l'\)r then.' shall arise; false Clirists, and falst; proplicjts, and shall slu-w f,acat sif,'i)s and wonders, so as to leail astray, if possible, even tlu; elcrt. Also wiv. 31 — And ili- shall send forth IIisan^,'els with a ^;icat sonnd of a trumpet, ami they shall j^.ilhci together His elect from the four winds. John \. 2.}. — \'erily, verily I sa\' unto you. he that hearelh My wortl and helieveth Ilim that sent Nie, hath eternal life, and conieth not unto judf^meiit, hut hath })assed out of death into life. John vi. 44— No man eati come to Me except th(! I'ather which sent Me, and I will receive him u|) to-day. Also 46— Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that l)elie\'eth hath eternal life. Also 58 v. — He that eateth this bread shall live for ever. John \. 21 — My shei'p hear My voice- and 1 knov.' them, and they follow Me, and I ^,'ive unto them eternal life, anil they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. John xii. 25 — And he that hatelh his life in this world shall keep it nnto eternal life. Jolin xiv. 23 — Jesus answered and said mito him, If a man love Me, lie will keep My word, and My l''at!ior will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John xvii. 2 — Holy Father, keep them in Thy name which Thou hast f,dven Me, that they may be one, even as we are. Also 22 v. — And the ,t;lory which Thou hast j^Mven Me I have <,Mven unto tlu;m, that they ma)' be one, even as we are one. Rom. viii. 29 — For whom He foreknew He also foreordained to be conformed to the imaj^e of His Son, tiiai He might be the first among many brethren, and whom He foreordained, them He also called, and whom He called, them He also justilicd, and wh.om He justified, them He also glorified. Also 38, 39 vv. — For ) am persuaded that neither death, etc. II. Cor. V. I — I'^or we know that if, etc. Eph. ii. 6, 9 — And raised us u|) with Him, and made, etc. Heb. vi. 4, 6 — It is impossible to renew them to repentance I. John ii 19— If they had been of us they would have continued with us. Phil. i. fi—Tliat lie which hej;an a >,'oo(l work in you will perfect it until the (lay of Jesus Christ. 11. Thrs. ii. I], lO.-To Ihc obtaining of tlu- ^'lory of our I.orcl Jesus Christ. These are some of the scriptures you would recpiire to show ine 1 was wrouf,' in placitif; some hope in. And these removed, with my other diflicnities ot rtMsonini;, I will he one with yon. hnl not till then Hut I shall continue to pray, that (iod may open our eyis that we may see li^dit " in II is light," is my adieu for the present. It IS 1 it It ■3&A£k-»^:diS^^i